Those numbers did seem to be pretty unbelievable... even for a sub as capable as the f113. Are the voltage sag figures also applicable to the Gotham rather than the f113?

Yes, the sag numbers were also for the Gotham. I've fixed that post with correct figures for the f113. Sorry about that. :o

Anyway back to JL subs,I am serious about four JL subs,I want to take the next step in subsonic performance. Not that one is lacking much here. By Christmas I should have them home,as I will have two weeks vaccation.

I mean this in the nicest of ways,but you are one sick puppy. :D :eek:

I apologize, Bogg... I accidentally posted the Gotham's numbers.... I'll edit the above post with correct figures for the f113... OOPS.

Are these figures with room loading,if so corner,what distance from the driver?

Thank you

TheEar...

Outdoors, 2 meters, ground plane measurement <<<< EDIT: CORRECTION, SEE BELOW



The actual methodology used was:

Outdoors, 1 meter, ground plane measurement (equivalent to 1m Half-Space, and directly comparable to Keith Yates numbers and Genelec's spec methodology).

Sorry for the confusing information.

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.

TheEar...

Outdoors, 2 meters, ground plane measurement

:eek: OMG

Ok,JL...here I come...to buy the rest...

Now I know...why my f113 could do justice to Pomp & Pipes tracks 4 and 9 ! :eek:

I realize it is recommended to daisy chain the subs ,I have two f112s with one rca and then balanced the other as suggested. My question is if I run both from a rca T and don't use slave can I use the aros in both subs two kill two nodes instead of one or does it automatically tell the other subs aro to do that? So far it sounds Great but could it get better?

Manville ... 108.8 dB @ 20 Hz ? That is pretty serious !

For a review, here is what we measured here:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/11320Hz.jpg

A couple of questions:

1. Do you know what the THD levels were ? (we are trying for 10%)

2. What was the duration of the signal ? (We used 6-8 second sine waves)

EDIT ... for comparitive purposes, here is the Velodyne DD-18 under the same circumstances:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/dd1820Hz.jpg

A couple of questions:

1. Do you know what the THD levels were ? (we are trying for 10%)

2. What was the duration of the signal ? (We used 6-8 second sine waves)
Maybe I have missed this but are your graphs max output graphs?

Richard, these are max output graphs @ 10% THD using sine waves of a 6-8 second duration. Since I do these manually, the 10% figure is not locked in stone ... the 20 Hz graph posted is appx. 11 %, when calculating it manually.

Any extra SPL from this point saw a large increase in THD.

Still, 100 dB from a single driver @ 20 Hz is pretty potent under these conditions.

There is likely a good reason why JL measured 8 dB different than we did. Quite frankly, there is rarely a case in which a 6-8 second sine wave is present in a disc ... more than likely, their results were from a shorter term "burst", similar to what Keith Yates did in his Way Down Deep test.

However, this is merely speculation at this time. Manville should be able to clarify things.

Richard, these are max output graphs @ 10% THD using sine waves of a 6-8 second duration. Since I do these manually, the 10% figure is not locked in stone ... the 20 Hz graph posted is appx. 11 %, when calculating it manually.

Any extra SPL from this point saw a large increase in THD.

Still, 100 dB from a single driver @ 20 Hz is pretty potent under these conditions.

There is likely a good reason why JL measured 8 dB different than we did. Quite frankly, there is rarely a case in which a 6-8 second sine wave is present in a disc ... more than likely, their results were from a shorter term "burst", similar to what Keith Yates did in his Way Down Deep test.

However, this is merely speculation at this time. Manville should be able to clarify things.

102.5 dB = Craig @ 20 Hz @ 2M GP
102.5 + 6 dB = 108.5 dB = Craig @ 20 Hz @ 1M GP

JL measured 108.8 dB @ 20 Hz. Is it possible JL was measuring at 1 meter GP and not 2M GP? Or perhaps they were measuring at 2M and normalized the data to 1M? This would almost perfectly explain the discrepancy between your two measurements.

According to Mark Seaton, normalizing data to 1M is actually quite common on the pro/OEM side of the industry; that's one of the reasons Yates did the same in the WDD shoot-out, despite actually measuring at 2M GP.

Thus far, JL has been using straight sines as the test stimulus (to refute the S&V Nousaine data for example), and there has been no mention of tone bursts.

The Yates WDD test Craig refers to used a 5 cycle shaped tone burst centered on the test frequency.......that is only 0.25 seconds at 20 Hz.

102.5 dB = Craig @ 20 Hz @ 2M GP

I did ask about this some time ago, but which number should we look at: 102.46 dB or 100.23 dB?

Why the difference? For Velodyne it's around 3 dB?

I did ask about this some time ago, but which number should we look at: 102.46 dB or 100.23 dB?

Good catch - we discussed this previously and 100.23 dB is the actual sound pressure level Craig was measuring; ignore the Peak value reading - sorry about that.

That does indeed leave a 2 dB differential between the two measurement sets, even accounting for normalization to 1M. Although 2 dB is a reasonable variation for temperature, humidity, mic calibration, line voltage differences, etc.

I'm still betting on normalization to 1M as the likely culprit, but Manville will have to check with his test engineers to be sure.

Why the difference? For Velodyne it's around 3 dB?

It's peak and RMS. The difference will be roughly 1.4X in the linear domain, or about 3 dB in the log10 domain.

Velo:

98.4 dB Peak = 1.66 Pascals
95.4 dB Avg = 1.18 Pascals

1.18 Pascals RMS AVG x 1.4 = 1.65 Pascals Peak

Based on simulations, here are the excursions for the Fathom's driver which would be required to hit various SPL levels @ 20 Hz (2 meter Groundplane).

100 dB, as we measured here (remember, we limited the output to 10% THD):

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/Fathomexc.jpg

108 dB, as measured by JL Audio

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/fathomimp.jpg

102 dB, which would be 108 dB corrected to 1 meter, as suggested by Ed.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/fathom1081meter.jpg

It's peak and RMS. The difference will be roughly 1.4X in the linear domain, or about 3 dB in the log10 domain.

Velo:

98.4 dB Peak = 1.66 Pascals
95.4 dB Avg = 1.18 Pascals

1.18 Pascals RMS AVG x 1.4 = 1.65 Pascals Peak
Thanks!

But why it's only ~2 dB for the JL?

Based on simulations, here are the excursions for the Fathom's driver which would be required to hit various SPL levels @ 20 Hz (2 meter Groundplane).

100 dB, as we measured here (remember, we limited the output to 10% THD):

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/Fathomexc.jpg

108 dB, as measured by JL Audio

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/fathomimp.jpg

102 dB, which would be 108 dB corrected to 1 meter, as suggested by Ed.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/fathom1081meter.jpg

Craig,

Is that one way excursion or is that peak to peak?

-Eli

Manville (or anyone else with the answer),

Does the Fathom use a limiter? Is it possible to drive the amp into clip or bottom the driver?

What should one expect when these subs are overdriven?

-Eli

Based on simulations, here are the excursions for the Fathom's driver which would be required to hit various SPL levels @ 20 Hz (2 meter Groundplane).


Wasn't it told that the drivers aren't identical to the 13W7? Maybe that could be the reason.

Edit: Here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8999215#post8999215) it is.

Eli .. That is one way excursion ... The red line in each graph shows the X-Max for the 13W-7 driver. Yes, this is the auto driver, but in terms of max excursion required, it will be a negligible difference between it and the driver for the home audio sub.

Using simple terms, All we are looking at is the excursion needed for any sealed driver of this size in a sealed cabinet to deliver the shown SPL #'s.

Eli .. That is one way excursion ... The red line in each graph shows the X-Max for the 13W-7 driver. Yes, this is the auto driver, but in terms of max excursion required, it will be a negligible difference between it and the driver for the home audio sub.

Using simple terms, All we are looking at is the excursion needed for any sealed driver of this size in a sealed cabinet to deliver the shown SPL #'s.

Got it. Thanks Craig.

Is the column on the left in inches? If it is, shouldn't the red line be closer to 2" mark for the HTW7?

-Eli

Got it. Thanks Craig.

-Eli

You are welcome ... And please, ignore the "sealed driver" part .. it should just say "driver". I need to hire a proofreader ... :eek: :D

The 108.8 dB figure is a maximum output figure at 20Hz and is not limited to less than 10% THD. Distortion is probably in the 30% range at that level. It is simply an expression of maximum output capability and was part of a reliability and current draw study under "worst case / abusive" conditions.

As to whether the JL subs use limiting or not... I really am not at liberty to get into specifics as these things tend to be too informative to other manufacturers. Suffice it to say that the design has been thoroughly optimized for reliability and graceful overload behavior.

The 108.8 dB figure is a maximum output figure at 20Hz and is not limited to less than 10% THD. Distortion is probably in the 30% range at that level. It is simply an expression of maximum output capability and was part of a reliability and current draw study under "worst case / abusive" conditions.

As to whether the JL subs use limiting or not... I really am not at liberty to get into specifics as these things tend to be too informative to other manufacturers. Suffice it to say that the design has been thoroughly optimized for reliability and graceful overload behavior.

Thanks for the reply Manville.

Craig,

Care to see if you can measure what the Fathom does beyond its limit?

-Eli

Thanks!

But why it's only ~2 dB for the JL?

The software and PC processor are constantly updating that window, and data fluctuations are perfectly normal behavior.

Craig just happened to have grabbed a screen shot in the midst of a data update and it doesn't quite show the 3 dB differential.

Most of the time, it will be very close to a 3 dB differential because that is the true mathematical function of the two values: RMS and Peak.

1.2 " one-way excursion @ 100 dB @ 20 Hz @ 10% THD @ 2M
1.5" one-way excursion @ 102 dB @ 20 Hz @~30% THD @ 2M (THD per Manville)

This makes sense - in a sealed subwoofer any increase in output is directly tied to an increase in excursion. A 2 dB increase in output will require ~ a 26% increase in excursion. So 1.2 X 1.26 = 1.5.

This also accounts for the 2 dB differential between Craig's and JL's measurements - JL was able to squeeze out another 2 dB beyond Craig's data (limited to 10% THD) before hitting max output limits and THD rose to 30%. This is consistent with normal subwoofer behavior.

Also, taking the max output value at 102 dB @ 2M and adding 6 dB gives 108 dB, which would be the normalized output at 1 meter. This also makes sense, as clearly the excursion requirements to generate 108 dB @ 2M would be over 5" P-P.

Gentlemen,

I just got off the phone with Brett Hanes, our Sr. Research engineer and I have to make a further correction and clarification.

Our numbers are NOT in fact 2m GP, but rather 1m GP (equiv. to 1m Half-space). There was some confusion on my part regarding the test protocol and I apologize for this error. That's what I get for posting late at night.

These 1m GP numbers are directly comparable to the Keith Yates numbers and to Genelec's spec. numbers, but if you wish to compare them to 2m GP measurements, you need to SUBTRACT 6dB from them.

Once again, very sorry for the confusion and I hope this clears it all up. I will make an edit on post #755 to note the correction.

Best regards,

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.

Gee it's nice when everything makes sense. I had come to much the same conclusion last night after logging off (~8 dB discrepancy due to a combination of measuring at 1m rather than 2m, and pushing the sub beyond 10% THD). Now I log back in and you've all confirmed it while I was away.

Thanks, guys! :D

Manville, can you provide Brett's phone number? ... kidding :D

Seriously , thanks for participating in the forum and sharing information. Very helpful to those of us searching for that elusive uber-woofer.

Gentlemen,

I just got off the phone with Brett Hanes, our Sr. Research engineer and I have to make a further correction and clarification.

Our numbers are NOT in fact 2m GP, but rather 1m GP (equiv. to 1m Half-space). There was some confusion on my part regarding the test protocol and I apologize for this error. That's what I get for posting late at night.

These 1m GP numbers are directly comparable to the Keith Yates numbers and to Genelec's spec. numbers, but if you wish to compare them to 2m GP measurements, you need to SUBTRACT 6dB from them.

Once again, very sorry for the confusion and I hope this clears it all up. I will make an edit on post #755 to note the correction.

Best regards,

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.

1.2 " one-way excursion @ 100 dB @ 20 Hz @ 10% THD @ 2M
1.5" one-way excursion @ 102 dB @ 20 Hz @~30% THD @ 2M (THD per Manville)

This makes sense - in a sealed subwoofer any increase in output is directly tied to an increase in excursion. A 2 dB increase in output will require ~ a 26% increase in excursion. So 1.2 X 1.26 = 1.5.

This also accounts for the 2 dB differential between Craig's and JL's measurements - JL was able to squeeze out another 2 dB beyond Craig's data (limited to 10% THD) before hitting max output limits and THD rose to 30%. This is consistent with normal subwoofer behavior.

Also, taking the max output value at 102 dB @ 2M and adding 6 dB gives 108 dB, which would be the normalized output at 1 meter. This also makes sense, as clearly the excursion requirements to generate 108 dB @ 2M would be over 5" P-P.

Nice catch.

Gentlemen,

I just got off the phone with Brett Hanes, our Sr. Research engineer and I have to make a further correction and clarification.

Our numbers are NOT in fact 2m GP, but rather 1m GP (equiv. to 1m Half-space). There was some confusion on my part regarding the test protocol and I apologize for this error. That's what I get for posting late at night.

These 1m GP numbers are directly comparable to the Keith Yates numbers and to Genelec's spec. numbers, but if you wish to compare them to 2m GP measurements, you need to SUBTRACT 6dB from them.

Once again, very sorry for the confusion and I hope this clears it all up. I will make an edit on post #755 to note the correction.

Best regards,

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.

Manville, that was one classy post.... :)

Manville, that was one classy post.... :)

I agree, seems to be more typical these days. Quite a lot of manufacturers taking the high road on a regular basis. You have AV123 Mark Schifter, Mark Seaton, ACI Mike Dzurko, HSU with Dr. HSU and Peter, JL Manville Smith, Velodyne Bruce Hall and Curt, SVS and ... well SVS and ... er well SVS and ummm well, does Ed Mullen count?

Classy posts by company representatives will only bring more customers in,and respect. Good to see quite a few representatives on AVS!

This is the most diverse forum on the net,viewed from any angle. The palce to get info.

Yes it is Ear, what took you so long to get here? Although, you almost have as many posts as I do. =p

For a brief update before heading out on a 3 day biz trip, The Hsu VTF-3 HO's are set up in our system next to the Fathoms. They are in the single port, 16 Hz, non turbo configuration. Both the Hsus and the Fathoms are stacked.

The Hsus are very good, but they are not in the same league as the Fathoms.

The Fathoms go deeper, are more articulate, hit more palpably, and are better in every sense.

On the other hand, the VTF-3 HO's ARE closer to the sound quality of the Fathoms than I remember the single PB12-Plus/2 being.

It is definitely time to get the PB12-Plus/2, PB12-Ultra, and a single VTF-3 HO into our basement system for a direct comparison of the three in a room they can realistically handle.

I hopefully will get this done Sunday, along with hooking up the new Mini Stratas from AV123.

The next portion of the subwoofer shootout will be the "best" $900-$1200 subwoofer setups. As the Axiom EP-500 and the SVS PB12-Ultra were a virtual tie in last year's tests (if memory serves, even though 5 of 6 preferred the Axiom, it was by one point each time, and the guy who preferred the SVS did so by 3 points. Out of 600 points, a 2 point differential overall is a virtual tie), let's call it a tie for this test.

And does anyone else think that the new dual 15 inch unit from EDS deserves a look ?

And does anyone else think that the new dual 15 inch unit from EDS deserves a look ?
You mean THIS? :D

The specs are pretty bold.

Room Tuning : 20Hz FR - (17-100Hz +/-3dB @110dB In Room)
In Room Avg SPL : 127.71 dB (10-100Hz Max Output Avg)

http://www.edesignaudio.com/edv2/gallery/267_large.jpg

You mean THIS? :D

The specs are pretty bold.
[i]
Room Tuning : 20Hz FR - (17-100Hz +/-3dB @110dB In Room)

http://www.edesignaudio.com/edv2/gallery/267_large.jpg

Funny thing is, I am willing to bet the F113 can hit this spec IN ROOM. Not sure about the max SPL figure though.

They also don't say where they are measuring from IN ROOM.

I wonder how big the dual 18 will be?

-Eli

The BIGGER, the BETTER, right?!

Fuggedabout real world room aesthetics!

Manville,
Have you heard back from the engineers re: hooking up 2 sources to the sub as per my previous post? I couldn't find the specs anywhere re: input impedance for the balanced and unbalanced inputs as well as "sensitivity" (how many volts for full output). Anyone know?

I'm a little confused about the max output of the F113 after all the corrections in recent posts. Is the max output of a single unit at 20hz reached at 100db at 1m with 10% distortion? That's respectable...not earthshattering. The Earthquake Supernova 15 will do that too for much less dough. Mind you, for the cosmetically acceptable version the prices are probably closer.

Anyone see that listing on Audiogon for that special Definitive Tech subwoofer that hits 128db at 20hz and something like 116db at 16hz in a normal room? Yowch. I'll bet TheEAR is already trying to get a pair!

Hi, The Bogg. Craig's tests indicated a maximum output for the f113 of ~100 dB @ 2m, and he used ~10% THD as a limit for useful maximum output. The ~108 dB maximum output figure mentioned by Manville represented what could be achieved @ 1m (gaining 6 dB), while pushing the sub beyond the 10% THD point to its absolute limit where it was producing ~30% THD (gaining another 2 dB). That's my understanding, anyway.

If I'm incorrect, I'm sure someone will point that out... ;)

Hi, The Bogg. Craig's tests indicated a maximum output for the f113 of ~100 dB @ 2m, and he used ~10% THD as a limit for useful maximum output. The ~108 dB maximum output figure mentioned by Manville represented what could be achieved @ 1m (gaining 6 dB), while pushing the sub beyond the 10% THD point to its absolute limit where it was producing ~30% THD (gaining another 2 dB). That's my understanding, anyway.

If I'm incorrect, I'm sure someone will point that out... ;)

I think you are correct,and unless I am badly mistaken...these are measured outside(no room gain).Right?

If so with room gain(and romm gain is real and can add a good few dB's)the f113 should do around 112-116dB @ 20Hz.

So again please correct me if I am off base here.

The big Definitive is measured how? The numbers they push are probably overly optimistic,no THD given,masured where corner loaded probably...@ 1M. So it does not look so great anymore.

I think you are correct,and unless I am badly mistaken...these are measured outside(no room gain).Right?

If so with room gain(and romm gain is real and can add a good few dB's)the f113 should do around 112-116dB @ 20Hz.

So again please correct me if I am off base here.

The big Definitive is measured how? The numbers they push are probably overly optimistic,no THD given,masured where corner loaded probably...@ 1M. So it does not look so great anymore.

What room gets you from 100db anechoic to 112db in room? That's a bit optomistic I'd say.

What room gets you from 100db anechoic to 112db in room? That's a bit optomistic I'd say.

He is taking the 108 1M 30% number and adding 4db.

-Eli

Optimistic,depends on the room. Take any subwoofer outside and the percieved output drops like a stone.In a room,you have at least two reflective surfaces,plus close by walls,plus factor it would be a smaller room. Adds fast IMO

Would be good to have Mark,Manville or Ed chime in on this(room gain),and how many dB's you add to a meausre taken outside.

Also down very deep you will compress the air in the room(lets take a sealed room here),as you cannot compress the air no matter what freq. when outside.

Lets take as an extreme example the interior of a car,very easy to get monster SPL from drivers that would be considered nothing spacial for home use.As compression plays a defining role in high SPL.

Now I'm not a doctor nor do I play one on TV but I think that this forum has developed an EAR infection.

Now I'm not a doctor nor do I play one on TV but I think that this forum has developed an EAR infection.

rofl.

Bit the bullet...couple of glossy F113s have been ordered.
Let the games begin!

The Bogg

Manville,
Have you heard back from the engineers re: hooking up 2 sources to the sub as per my previous post? I couldn't find the specs anywhere re: input impedance for the balanced and unbalanced inputs as well as "sensitivity" (how many volts for full output). Anyone know?

I did speak with one of our engineers today and he said there would be no danger in connecting two sources, one to the XLR's and the other to the RCA's. The inputs are isolated and there should be no danger to the source components.

Best regards,

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.

Now I'm not a doctor nor do I play one on TV but I think that this forum has developed an EAR infection.

Careful now,the infection may spread...

In theory each boundary adds 6 dB. So going from ground plane (1 boundary) to 1/8 space (three boundaries corner-loaded) should add 12 dB - at the same measurement distance.

In reality, these boundaries are "lossy" meaning they do not completely reflect the sound since they are often constructed of thin drywall, glass, etc. So one can expect somewhat less than 6 dB/boundary of reinforcement from normal materials of construction.

Also, as you move away from the subwoofer, room modes become a significant influence on the output, and the theory no longer neatly applies (you could be sitting in null for example at 5 meters from the sub).

Room gain is a completely different phenomenon than boundary reinforcement and the two should not be confused. Room gain occurs at the frequency where the 1/2 wavelength exceeds the longest room dimension (typically ceiling corner to floor corner). At this frequency the room can no longer support a conventional modal response and it transfer to a pressure response (at least from monopole subwoofers).

In a perfectly sealed and rigid vessel, room gain can result in a 12 dB/octave rising response. In real rooms with open floor plans and lossy boundaries and energy robbing ductwork and plenums, it's actually more like 6-8 dB/octave until VLF are encountered and then it often does indeed approach 12 dB/octave.

Regardless, that is why a sealed subwoofer with a 2nd order (i.e., no high pass filter) anechoic roll-off starting at say 30-35 Hz can often exhibit a flat in-room frequency response to near single digit frequencies in a small to mid-size enclosed room that is rigidly constructed (say of concrete block).

Regardless, that is why a sealed subwoofer with a 2nd order (i.e., no high pass filter) anechoic roll-off starting at say 30-35 Hz can often exhibit a flat in-room frequency response to near single digit frequencies in a small to mid-size enclosed room that is rigidly constructed (say of concrete block).
Yeah!! I got just such a room. And (with a little luck) 2 such subs will be here in a couple of weeks. :cool: :)

Are there plans to sell the JL Audio subs abroad as well? I might have considered two of those if there was a 230V version (and an affordable way to get them).

We hope to have 230V versions in late 2007, Ettepet. Wish I had better news.

Best regards,

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.

Hey Manville I am basically down the street from you in Pembroke Pines....Who sells your subs so I can get a listen? Thanks

Thanks Ed,

This is interesting...

"In a perfectly sealed and rigid vessel, room gain can result in a 12 dB/octave rising response. In real rooms with open floor plans and lossy boundaries and energy robbing ductwork and plenums, it's actually more like 6-8 dB/octave until VLF are encountered and then it often does indeed approach 12 dB/octave."

Manville,

Any danger do the subwoofer possible by leaving it in the "on" position? (not playing all the time, just turned on....)

-Eli

i don't mean to sidetrack or hijack this thread but...

I am seriously contemplating getting a f112. From reading this thread so far, i've learned that the f113 is a no brainer if you can pay the price but i was wonder if at f112's level, getting that is also a no brainer or are there other subs out there to consider?



thanks

Sunny,

I replied to your PM,I can tell you the f112 is in the f113 league.The only obvious downside is it will not play as loud or dig as deep as its larger brother.

Also an easy choice iof you are looking for a sub that does HT and music so well.




Eli,

The infection again...I leave my JL's powered all the time. The amps are cool,and never got hot even dusring blasting galore! In fact all my subs having the always on position are left this way.Never had any problems so far.

Thanks Ed,

This is interesting...

"In a perfectly sealed and rigid vessel, room gain can result in a 12 dB/octave rising response. In real rooms with open floor plans and lossy boundaries and energy robbing ductwork and plenums, it's actually more like 6-8 dB/octave until VLF are encountered and then it often does indeed approach 12 dB/octave."

My test/eval room supports more room gain than the average bear, and you can see this effect by looking at the anechoic vs. in-room frequency response in most of my more recent subwoofer reviews.

Probably the most dramatic example was the Triad Gold In-Room PowerSub. This is a sealed, 2nd-order, low-Q subwoofer which starts a gentle anechoic roll-off at about 32 Hz and is about -20 dB at 10 Hz. In-room, though, the response was essentially flat to 11 Hz. :)

The F113 is being delivered in about one hour. Replaces a Klipsch reference 12.

Can anyone provide a thread link for test DVD scenes...I'm on the way home and forgot to search last evening.

Many thanks to all who have posted reviews/info in this thread....made the decision a no-brainer of sorts.

~Kenny

Try this KShep
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=755493
This one may be in there but here it is by itself
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=505286

The F113 is being delivered in about one hour. Replaces a Klipsch reference 12.

Can anyone provide a thread link for test DVD scenes...I'm on the way home and forgot to search last evening.

Many thanks to all who have posted reviews/info in this thread....made the decision a no-brainer of sorts.

~Kenny

Let us know your impressions KShep. Good or bad.

-Eli

Manville,

Any danger do the subwoofer possible by leaving it in the "on" position? (not playing all the time, just turned on....)

-Eli

Shouldn't be a problem. It will draw about 10-20W, though. You can always toggle it on and off manually (one nice thing about front mounted controls.)

Based on your report, our engineers ran a quick test on two production Fathoms. Using a 50 Hz sinewave applied to one XLR input, we found that the sub turns on at about 20 mV. It will turn off if the signal remains at 5 mV or less for 30 minutes. 50 mV is a pretty low threshold and I'm surprised that you're having a problem with this.

Hey Manville I am basically down the street from you in Pembroke Pines....Who sells your subs so I can get a listen? Thanks

See your PM.

Shouldn't be a problem. It will draw about 10-20W, though. You can always toggle it on and off manually (one nice thing about front mounted controls.)

Based on your report, our engineers ran a quick test on two production Fathoms. Using a 50 Hz sinewave applied to one XLR input, we found that the sub turns on at about 20 mV. It will turn off if the signal remains at 5 mV or less for 30 minutes. 50 mV is a pretty low threshold and I'm surprised that you're having a problem with this.

Manville,

I don't really think I am having a "problem". I think it is just the fact that my normal TV listening levels are quite low. That combined with the fact that there is not a lot of signal going to the sub during normal DirectTV broadcasts.

Thanks for the reply. 10-20w is not enough draw to be concerned about.

-Eli

Manville,

I don't really think I am having a "problem". I think it is just the fact that my normal TV listening levels are quite low. That combined with the fact that there is not a lot of signal going to the sub during normal DirectTV broadcasts.

Thanks for the reply. 10-20w is not enough draw to be concerned about.

-Eli
Yes TJEli, I have the same problem too. But it's not a problem for me either.

The F113 is being delivered in about one hour. Replaces a Klipsch reference 12.

Can anyone provide a thread link for test DVD scenes...I'm on the way home and forgot to search last evening.

Many thanks to all who have posted reviews/info in this thread....made the decision a no-brainer of sorts.

~Kenny
Good choice I think you will love it, I certainly do. I've had experience with other Subs in the past in my HT system and still have an SVS PB 12plus/2, the f113 is a no brainer. By far and away the best sub I have purchased. Hate to sound like a fan boy, but I guess I am, :D Oh well!

Try this KShep
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=755493
This one may be in there but here it is by itself
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=505286
Thank you.

To coin a phrase recently posted....she "digs deep".

I'll need to listen to a few more sources before I can post an educated review.

Cubic volume for this room is voluminous as the house is open design....I may need another one to compensate.

pic of room
http://img363.imageshack.us/img363/8782/kshepjlvi6.jpg
oppo angle
http://img354.imageshack.us/img354/1628/kshepjl2oz6.jpg
view from sub position
http://img363.imageshack.us/img363/7582/kshepjl4sy1.jpg
Fathom
http://img354.imageshack.us/img354/9624/kshepjl3ku9.jpg

Cheers

Thank you.

To coin a phrase recently posted....she "digs deep".

I'll need to listen to a few more sources before I can post an educated review.

Cubic volume for this room is voluminous as the house is open design....I may need another one to compensate.

pic of room
http://img363.imageshack.us/img363/8782/kshepjlvi6.jpg
oppo angle
http://img354.imageshack.us/img354/1628/kshepjl2oz6.jpg
view from sub position
http://img363.imageshack.us/img363/7582/kshepjl4sy1.jpg

Cheers

Well hurry up and listen :p I want to know how it does in that open area.

-Eli

That sub has a nice view...beautiful home. :)

That sub has a nice view...beautiful home.
Doubtfull if it will ever want to leave.. :)

That sub has a nice view...beautiful home. :)
Thanks. It is very comfortable most of the time....my g/f visits on the weekends and is less than diligent about putting stuff away.

First impression is that the Klipsch is much easier to move. It is also difficult for me to come to terms with the fact that I have replaced a good performing sub w/two 12's for this one.

Since I am not able to drive both right now to compare them (I had to move the Klipsch to a secret location before g/f shows up) I'll just give initial impressions and a reading or two.

This space is an acoustic nightmare. I am in the kitchen now listening to a DTS reproduction of "Gaucho". The Radio Shack SPL meter set at a "C" weighting 80 dB reads ~75dB when I place it near the couch in the living room. This is where the mic was placed for self-calibration. I have no clue as to the significance of these readings...just passing along the info.

up here in the kitchen I'm getting a ~66dB reading. We did not reconfig the Arcam AVR350 sub settings. Source is an Arcam DV29. Interconnects are Moon Audio, Cardas terminations, Ram speaker cables w/WBT terminations....AudioQuest sub cable...mid-grade.

I am hearing and feeling a more 'civilized' response from the lower frequencies...they seem to just melt away as opposed to disappearing in a flash.

Must prepare for g/f's arrival...more later. If there are any specific queries I will do my best to respond....I am but a consumer though and not tech savvy in the least.

Peace

~Kenny

Watching the driver vibrate during calibration was a treat....I had the guy do it twice. Should the Viagra ever fail me I know where to send the significant other.

Can anyone direct me to a dealer in the Utah area. Website gives no dealers, looking to purchase an f113.

Can anyone direct me to a dealer in the Utah area. Website gives no dealers, looking to purchase an f113.

Send a private message to Manville_JL, and he should be able to help you out.

KShep,

That is one huge space to fill! Looking great,now I think it all depends at what max SPL you listen to music and movies.

As one could be plenty or a few not enough. ;)

Must prepare for g/f's arrival...more later...Should the Viagra ever fail me I know where to send the significant other.

Ahh, I can see the scheduling constraints you're under. Timing is everything. :)

Can anyone who owns or have auditioned a Fathom 110 comment on its qualities compared to the F 112 or similar subwoofer?

The fathom 110 is not currently available. The only ones available at this time are the 112 & 113 in satin or gloss.

I'm a jinx :(

Went to listen to the Fathoms at a different location - my first experience was a disappointment.

Went prepared this time, and had a few familiar things to demo. I was impressed by the location, which shall remain nameless, and the gear looked good (McIntosh, Classe, and B&W). They had the Fathom hooked up and were happy to fire everything up and asked what I had brought along.

Pulled out The Haunting DTS, and went to the bedroom scene. Could instantly tell that this sub had very impressive output. Really moved air and set things to shaking (wood sub floor). Was prepared to be truly impressed as she dives out of the bed (forget the character/actresses name).

Disappointment.

The sub CLEARLY BOTTOMED OUT, and not just on the big one (those familiar with the scene know what I mean). Listened to the rest of the scene, but it didn't get any better.

Told the salesman I'd had enough, and handed over a CD. Enya's Watermark, track 10, The Longships.

It just bottomed out repeatedly. Very bad. The salesman began to apologize, and said he'd never heard this before. He was immediately on the phone with the rep to see if there was a problem. He ended up recalibrating, so I tried Enya again. It was better, but still a LONG ways to go before I would even consider that kind of $$$.

Left quickly saying I would try again after they had a chance to figure out what was wrong.

I currently have a Velodyne F1500R. It reproduces all of The Longships notes accurately (at least to my ears), but not with as much authority and impact as I would like.

I'll give this thing one more try, but right now, I don't get what all the fuss is about.

How long till Seaton gets dealers?

:( :( :( :(

I'm a jinx :(

Went to listen to the Fathoms at a different location - my first experience was a disappointment.

Went prepared this time, and had a few familiar things to demo. I was impressed by the location, which shall remain nameless, and the gear looked good (McIntosh, Classe, and B&W). They had the Fathom hooked up and were happy to fire everything up and asked what I had brought along.

Pulled out The Haunting DTS, and went to the bedroom scene. Could instantly tell that this sub had very impressive output. Really moved air and set things to shaking (wood sub floor). Was prepared to be truly impressed as she dives out of the bed (forget the character/actresses name).

Disappointment.

The sub CLEARLY BOTTOMED OUT, and not just on the big one (those familiar with the scene know what I mean). Listened to the rest of the scene, but it didn't get any better.

Told the salesman I'd had enough, and handed over a CD. Enya's Watermark, track 10, The Longships.

It just bottomed out repeatedly. Very bad. The salesman began to apologize, and said he'd never heard this before. He was immediately on the phone with the rep to see if there was a problem. He ended up recalibrating, so I tried Enya again. It was better, but still a LONG ways to go before I would even consider that kind of $$$.

Left quickly saying I would try again after they had a chance to figure out what was wrong.

I currently have a Velodyne F1500R. It reproduces all of The Longships notes accurately (at least to my ears), but not with as much authority and impact as I would like.

I'll give this thing one more try, but right now, I don't get what all the fuss is about.

How long till Seaton gets dealers?

:( :( :( :(

Well I don't have the Haunting DVD. However I can say, I have played U-571, War of the Worlds, Finding Nemo etc. etc...... I have played all at reference level any beyond and have never :eek: been close to bottoming out the F113. Only thing I can think of is maybe the dealer had a defective unit.

It was bottoming out with music too.... Ya something was definatley not right with that unit.

How big was the room? Room leaking to other places? Was the sub in a corner?

The dealer must have a defective unit. I would never recomend or far less...buy a subwoofer ...or in this case multiples .Of a sub that bottoms out with various material.NEVER

And FYI I use on eof the biggest sub killers you can have...Pomp & Pipes by Reference Recordings.Try track 4 and 9,it will push any sub beyond its capabilities and fast if it is not designed to restric power to the VC when pushed too far.

I bottomed a few subs and made many cry with these two tracks,the f112 and f113 never showed stress,even at hearing loss inducing output!

You can bottom an SVS at high volume easy with that one.Easy

My HGS18 does a more or less capable rendition as it is too weak to move the air needed to do it justice.The f113 passed with flying colors.

This is subsonic fury below 16hz like you have few,sustined in places.

How big was the room? Room leaking to other places? Was the sub in a corner?


...mine is in a corner. Bad spot???

I haven't pushed the 113 at all yet and probably will not until Monday evening. How does a novice tell if a sub is 'bottoming out'?

...mine is in a corner. Bad spot???
Depends. In many rooms the gain you get from corner placement is benificial. My recent subs all have been placed in the 'virtual center' of the room (next to an open kitchen). I asked these questions to get a sense of how this "bottoming" occured. ;)

...mine is in a corner. Bad spot???

I haven't pushed the 113 at all yet and probably will not until Monday evening. How does a novice tell if a sub is 'bottoming out'?

Corners are fine and in most cases preferable in large rooms.

I wouldn't worry but if it happens, you will know it. My room is as approx as large as yours (very nice looking bachelor pad by the way) and I was playing the F113 pretty agressively today with no bottoming.

Say, shouldn't you be entertaining that GF of yours instead of hanging out on this Forum? :p

Definitely something wrong there John. My Fathoms play the Longships the best I have ever heard it. Also played 1812 Overture tonight without any problem. If you know that recording, you know the dynamics are incredable. No problem. The dealer has something set wrong. Try again. There are too many of us here with flawless F113s, we can't all be wrong.

I know that this sub MUST be better than what I've been exposed to so far. Too many people on this forum have the f113 and sing it's praises.

That's why I say I'm a jinx - if I go near it, it doesn't work right. But until I hear it and am satisfied, no way.

As far a s room set up, I didn't measure. It was a fairly large room, say 12'x20' with a couple of risers for the seating. The sub was on the front wall 3-4 feet from the left corner. It was in a cabinet enclosure (there were several along the front for various subs and equipment), but I don't think corner loading had anything to do with this.

The entrance to the room was two heavy (appearing) doors that were closed. Very little/no light came through. Don't know about "leaking", but it certainly was a tighter room than I have at home. My set up is a room that opens to a lower room and is separated my dark curtains which have little (if any) acoustical properties. Yes, I know it is not a good setup, but it is what I have, and I currently can get the low frequencies.

My concern is that the sub has plenty of output at the low frequencies, but it is not accurate.

I'm pretty sure I'm wrong, so I'll give it it one more try.

Hope it goes better, The sub does have great output. I want to make sure it can hit the lowest frequencies accurately, then I'll check speed and "musicality".

Still trying to be positive. :)

...mine is in a corner. Bad spot???
I assume you mean this spot?

http://img354.imageshack.us/img354/9624/kshepjl3ku9.jpg

If so, FWIW, that's not really an acoustical corner for the wavelengths we're talking about. That small half wall doesn't really come into play... that's more of a midwall location when you look at the whole space. You may get more output if placed in a true corner. But of course, whether or not that will improve the overall sound is another question. Experimentation is key. You have a problematic space... it's large, and based on the layout I'm assuming you desire good response from a wide variety of listening positions. Your best bet is to order several more. :D

BTW, is that those Ohm speakers with the Walsh drivers (or whatever those cone shaped drivers were called)? I always thought those were interesting. Don't think I've ever actually seen one. :)

Hey John, I have The Haunting with Lili Taylor as Eleanor 'Nell' Vance in DTS along with F113. The F113 performed flawlessly during the entire movie. As a matter of fact it was my first time (104db) during that bedroom scene to hear it so clean. My HGS15 would always bottom out during that part. It would also bottom out in WOTW & U571. I don't have that problem anymore. My sub is located here:

http://www.av123forum.com/photopost/data/500/4176Home_Theater-med.jpg

It works very well in this location.

It was in a cabinet enclosure (there were several along the front for various subs and equipment),...
Are you sure it wasn't rattling in the cabinet? Ask them to take it out of the cabinet and see if that helps.

Craig

Dennis1951,

what brand of front speakers are those in the pic? Never seen them before.

Almost any sub could be bottomed out if you are using bass management and directing all of the bass below 80hz from all 5 or 6 channels as well as the LFE channel to a single sub and listening at close to reference level. If that's what was happening in your demo (John Schneider) then perhaps you might need a second (or more) sub.

Somehow I doubt that is the case. Manville didn't come out and say it but I suspect that there will be some sort of limiting to prevent woofer damage from bottoming. I don't consider 12x20 all that large of a room for one of these subs to fill. My current basement setup has 15x35 with a large opening into another area. Even with my B&W ASW4000 sub it doesn't bottom in WOTW at -5db from reference level - actually I've never heard this sub bottom out. When I get the pair of F113s I'll see how they do - I have high hopes for them!

Bogg out

Looks like Dennis has large Snell mains and center.

And again I will chime in(oh no not Ear again!) the f112 or the f113 NEVER bottom out on anything I've thrown at them so far.And I have alot of sub killers to punish my subs with.

It was in a cabinet enclosure (there were several along the front for various subs and equipment),One of 3 things must be the issue here. Another sub in that cabinet is playing (that the dealer was not aware of) that is bottoming out. Like Craig said, something is rattling inside tha cabinet. Or it is defective. I'm betting on the first one. For it to bottom out that easily is impossible if the f113 is working properly. I have mine in about a 4500 cu. ft. room and hit 110dB (LP is nearfiled) with WOTW without problems. I would suggest having that dealer take the f113 out of the cabinet, and make sure all other subs are literally switched off, as well as making sure the mains are not running full range.

It wasn't the cabinet rattling that was the problem, it just couldn't hit the note.

As far as I know, no strange bass management being used, just that of the f113 itself.

There is always a chance that somebody did something to the system that the salesman didn't know about, but I'm having trouble coming up with something that would cause it to "bottom out". If the driver is blown, it's blown and affects all frequencies. If the amp is shot, same thing. Not familiar with any sort of EQ that would only cause distortion below, say about 30-35Hz down. Room nodes tend to boost/cut levels at certain frequencies. I know that nodes can "cover" other frequencies, but again, not bottom out.

Like I said, I'll try a 3rd location.

I think MF is correct here,there may be another sub playing and bottoming out.

One of 3 things must be the issue here. Another sub in that cabinet is playing (that the dealer was not aware of) that is bottoming out. Like Craig said, something is rattling inside tha cabinet. Or it is defective. I'm betting on the first one. For it to bottom out that easily is impossible if the f113 is working properly. I have mine in about a 4500 cu. ft. room and hit 110dB (LP is nearfiled) with WOTW without problems. I would suggest having that dealer take the f113 out of the cabinet, and make sure all other subs are literally switched off, as well as making sure the mains are not running full range.
I must've been typing while you posted this.

I suppose it's possible, but I have my doubts. The salesman checked prior to the demo and confirmed it was the only one on, but he could have been mistaken.

I don't understand why just recalibrating the sub would have made a diifference. (he said that after speaking to the rep, he re-ran the f113 calibration. It did clear up some of the problem, but only somewhat. I'm pretty sure that if he discovered another sub on, he would've mentioned it - it would easily explain what everybody heard)

I can't confirm how the bass management was set up as far as the mains go, but again, it would explain things. I don't know how the McIntosh was set up - seems like the salesman would have checked it. :D :rolleyes:

Is there any chance that the software/hardware for the Fathom could have been on the blink? I have no idea how JL implements it (chip, software, firmare, microphone issues, etc.)

It seems that there is either something wrong with that Fathom (like a damaged driver) or that something else in the system or room is causing the problem.

Bottoming is simply not an issue with this product in normal or even aggressive use.

Whatever it is, I can guarantee you that it is not a problem with a properly working f113 and that is the botom line. Too many people including myself can play things like WOTW at near reference levels without problems. Plus Craigsub hit levels during GP measurements that were much higher than than the DD-18 at 20Hz and 16Hz and no bottoming problems.

John Schneider - When one runs a max output test using sinewaves, it is the most difficult test imaginable for a subwoofer. The reason for this is simple, you are taking the subwoofer in question to extreme output levels, and then "grabbing" the chart at more normal levels. In the case of the Fathom, Once I hit 100.23 db @ 20 Hz, it hit the 10% THD level ... when I increased the level past this, it delivered appx. (I am doing this from memory) 102 dB, then stopped getting louder.

I TRIED to overload the 113, and was unable to do so. The good part about having a dealer network is being able to audition a sub. The bad part is the level of ability of SOME dealers to properly demo the unit.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/11320Hz.jpg

craigsub,

I'm hoping you're right about the dealer.

craigsub,

I'm hoping you're right about the dealer.

John,

After reading your experience today I physically tried to get mine to bottom. I could not. The only thing I could get it to do was a little "flutter" from the driver during the part in The Haunting where the cold air comes in the room. I pushed it to the point where it just would not go anymore on several scenes.

I do not know what was going on with the one you demoed.

Take Care,

-Eli

Corners are fine and in most cases preferable in large rooms.

I wouldn't worry but if it happens, you will know it. My room is as approx as large as yours (very nice looking bachelor pad by the way) and I was playing the F113 pretty agressively today with no bottoming.

Say, shouldn't you be entertaining that GF of yours instead of hanging out on this Forum? :p
Thanks for the kind words. Bachelor pad is an apt description for the dwelling...maybe not so for the man...been dating this gal for 18 years now.

I'll have a chance this evening to increase the volume to a more enthusiastic level and listen to different sources. Very much looking forward to it.

Yeah, the evening meal was a little late reaching the table ...made for a slight adjustment to cocktail consumption.

I assume you mean this spot?

http://img354.imageshack.us/img354/9624/kshepjl3ku9.jpg

If so, FWIW, that's not really an acoustical corner for the wavelengths we're talking about. That small half wall doesn't really come into play... that's more of a midwall location when you look at the whole space. You may get more output if placed in a true corner. But of course, whether or not that will improve the overall sound is another question. Experimentation is key. You have a problematic space... it's large, and based on the layout I'm assuming you desire good response from a wide variety of listening positions. Your best bet is to order several more. :D

BTW, is that those Ohm speakers with the Walsh drivers (or whatever those cone shaped drivers were called)? I always thought those were interesting. Don't think I've ever actually seen one. :)
That is the spot. I would like to move the sub away from the glass but options are limited.

Unless there is a buy-one-get-two-free promo going on OR Santa Clause is real the chances of two more Fathom 113's showing up anytime soon is remote.

Yes, those are the Ohm Walsh 5's. They were modified by Ohm to work in conjunction with 6 Ohm low freq drivers located above the entertainment built-in for the 2Ch side. Soundstage is best described as omni-directional...works very well for the large space.

For the sub's sake you want to move it out of direct sunlight/cool moisture condensing air 'falling' from the window glass to the floor and definately away from that heat vent :eek:

Try right beside the Ohm -- that would minimize phase and resonance pattern differences in the crossover range -- then EQ to taste. :)

Thanks for the kind words. Bachelor pad is an apt description for the dwelling...maybe not so for the man...been dating this gal for 18 years now.

I'll have a chance this evening to increase the volume to a more enthusiastic level and listen to different sources. Very much looking forward to it.

Yeah, the evening meal was a little late reaching the table ...made for a slight adjustment to cocktail consumption.


18 years :eek: I am going on 7 years with my SO and we are happily un-married (for the time being). Nice to see others that have a non-traditional arrangement.

Good choice on the sub.

For the sub's sake you want to move it out of direct sunlight/cool moisture condensing air 'falling' from the window glass to the floor and definately away from that heat vent :eek:

Try right beside the Ohm -- that would minimize phase and resonance pattern differences in the crossover range -- then EQ to taste. :)

I think I can manage to move it that far absent an overhead crane. I'll get it away from that vent in any event....thanks.

note:the Ohm's and the Fathom operate on two different systems. Ohm / 2Ch and Fathom 5.1

18 years :eek: I am going on 7 years with my SO and we are happily un-married (for the time being). Nice to see others that have a non-traditional arrangement.

Good choice on the sub. I am likely keeping my DD-18 and returning the Fathom. Just not enough of a performance delta for me to switch but if I were buying new and didn't already have the DD-18, the Fathom would be my choice.
Good luck w/the relationship...and with getting the 113 out of the house without incurring injury. I was glad I brought a dolly home from the office to ease the install procedure.

Good luck w/the relationship...and with getting the 113 out of the house without incurring injury. I was glad I brought a dolly home from the office to ease the install procedure.


Thanks, you too. The F113 is a heavy little sucker. Hard to believe it weighs 20lbs more than the much larger DD-18. There can't be a lot of air in that little box. ;)

To summarize my impressions:

I have had the Fathom in for an A/B comparision with my Velo DD-18 for the last week and a half . For me the results were very close. I found source material where i preferred each of the subs. In general, the Fathom was better for music and the Velo for movies though there were exceptions.

Some less subjective points are:

The Velo's 8 band EQ is more flexible, but the Fathom's ARO worked very well in my large open space. Smaller size of the Fathom is nice, but it is 20lbs heavier. Both are extremely well made and nicely finished (piano gloss). The Velos software is upgradable, I'm not sure if this is possible on the Fathom. Velo has a remote, the Fathom requires removal of the grill in order to access the controls.

Bottom line for me was that I already own the Velo and the performance delta was small. Being as I was only keeping one sub, the Fathom is being returned. Now if I had owned neither sub and was evaluating a new purchase, the results might have been different. Really, anyone should be happy with either of these great subwoofers. It is nice to see new products like the F113 pushing the price/ performance envelope for sealed subwoofers.

FYI,

I have 2 Fathom 113's in my room and did the Darla "tap" scene yesterday and was getting 110db readings. Very scary loud :D I thought the house structure might be in danger!

Maybe it's just been a long day, but damned if I know what the "Darla tap scene" is!!

Maybe it's just been a long day, but damned if I know what the "Darla tap scene" is!!
From Finding Nemo, when Darla taps on the fish tank. Chapter 25 (1:18:14)

Maybe it's just been a long day, but damned if I know what the "Darla tap scene" is!!
In the movie Finding Nemo when the dentist's daughter (Darla), comes into the office and taps on the fish tank. Very loud and low stuff. Good sub test.

Thanks Ransac, now I remember.

John,

After reading your experience today I physically tried to get mine to bottom. I could not. The only thing I could get it to do was a little "flutter" from the driver during the part in The Haunting where the cold air comes in the room. I pushed it to the point where it just would not go anymore on several scenes.

I do not know what was going on with the one you demoed.

Take Care,

-Eli
Yes I bought the movie, The Haunting yesterday as well, I was not able to get it on DTS. I had absolutely no problem with JL f113 bottoming out at extreme volumes or showing any signs of fatigue at all.

Does anybody have any preliminary ideas on how the F113 will stack up against the submersive or BMF-1? Im thinking about buying another F113, but the Submersive and BMF-1 sound tempting as well. I just simply want the best. If the Submersive or BMF-1 is in fact better than a single F113, do you think dual F113's would be better than single Submersive or BMF-1?

Does anybody have any preliminary ideas on how the F113 will stack up against the submersive or BMF-1? Im thinking about buying another F113, but the Submersive and BMF-1 sound tempting as well. I just simply want the best. If the Submersive or BMF-1 is in fact better than a single F113, do you think dual F113's would be better than single Submersive or BMF-1?

Time will tell. I expect them all to be very close. How would dual F113s fair against dual SubMersives? I do not have the answer. Remember, the SubMersives are cheaper so that may turn out to be a better option if the performance is similar. Hopefully Craig will have his towards the end of this month.

-Eli

(relative to F113)
What is the cost for a SubMersive along with an equivalently powered amplifier and A.R.O.-like equalization?

I like the ideas of separate components for the ability to swap out single components, but the all-in-one package is nice too.

The SubMersive is $2000. It has a built in 1000 watt amp. I think it uses ICE technology. Then figure 500-600 for a good eq and you are still below $3000.

Maybe it's just been a long day, but damned if I know what the "Darla tap scene" is!!

Chapter 25 in Finding Nemo is always one of my favoites scenes to test subs. Is 110db pretty respectable for this scene?

Does anybody have any preliminary ideas on how the F113 will stack up against the submersive or BMF-1? Im thinking about buying another F113, but the Submersive and BMF-1 sound tempting as well. I just simply want the best. If the Submersive or BMF-1 is in fact better than a single F113, do you think dual F113's would be better than single Submersive or BMF-1?

I have a Velo SMS just to see what is happening in my room, not using it to EQ. When I added the second F113, the room response almost requires Zero EQ. (they are not co-located)

Stacked would be louder but in my room I have one in the rear corner and one about 1/3rd from the front on the side wall and get the best of both worlds.

Chapter 25 in Finding Nemo is always one of my favoites scenes to test subs. Is 110db pretty respectable for this scene?

It is respectable based on the size of the room. In my 3600 cu ft room, dual SVS CS 20-39s could hit 117 db on that scene. YMMV.

-Eli

It is respectable based on the size of the room. In my 3600 cu ft room, dual SVS CS 20-39s could hit 117 db on that scene. YMMV.

-Eli
Eli,

Do you have any Plus/2 vs. f113 max SPL numbers?

Forgive my ignorance, as I'm pretty new to the HT world...

The big thing on this sub is the electronics, right? I mean, the driver is nice, but the w7 has been around for a while. The box, while I'm sure is nice, is just a small sealed enclosure.

The big item on this sub,and what seperates it from the competition, is the electronics, right? Whatever form of amp/eq the thing uses is going to be responsible for its sound, and i would guess about $2200 of its cost ($400 for the driver +/-, $200 for a nicely constructed box, and the balance for the JL emblems on the thing).

Am I wrong here? Do I have a moot point? Am I just tired from reading 16 pages and then skimming another 14?
:)

damon

Eli,

Do you have any Plus/2 vs. f113 max SPL numbers?

I do not have any max SPL numbers for the F113 yet because I have a new baby in the house. My max numbers for the Plus/2 are for DUAL +/2s and I can tell you that a single F113 is not going to play as loud in my room as the dual +/2s did. However, it does extend lower than the +/2s did.

I usually use chapter 4 in WOTW for my max SPL tests. When I get the house to myself I will post some numbers.

-Eli

Subliminal,

The "big thing" with any powered subwoofer is really the whole package: Driver, Enclosure, Processing and Amplification. How well these different elements work together ultimately determines the performance of the product. That being said, a better driver, a more powerful amplifier, a more refined processing package each provide an incremental improvement in and of themselves, but the real magic happens when everything is balanced and well engineered. If you have to pick one lynchpin that ultimately dictates the limits of the product, that would be the driver itself but it is quite possible to take a great driver and create a less than stellar subwoofer with it.

Beyond that, you get into the physical envelope of the product. Is it tiny, small, average, big or huge? The bigger it is, the easier it is to get low and loud. Achieving great performance in a small package is more difficult (and expensive).

Also important are input options, processing features like automatic room correction schemes, phase control, etc. Beyond that, there are cosmetics... the look and feel of the product.

In the case of the Fathom, you have an exceptional driver powered by a very powerful, specifically engineered switching amplifier with a very high quality input section, supported by a nice suite of manual signal processing features and a very powerful automatic room equalization package. The balance of the design is evident in its performance... it gets very loud for its size (challenging much bigger subs), extends very deep for its size, stays very clean and integrates extremely well for music or movies. All of this in a fairly compact and beautifully finished package.

Whether a Fathom or any other subwoofer merits your hard earned money is a judgment only you can make based on your needs, wants and tastes.

Best regards,

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.

Also,

You can't touch a 13W7 driver for $400. The Fathoms use a "revised" version of the W7s as well.

Eli,

Do you have any Plus/2 vs. f113 max SPL numbers?
I have no numbers to give you, but I can tell you I am a proud owner of both, in opposite corners of my room. The F113 is definately louder and cleaner than plus/2.

Also,

You can't touch a 13W7 driver for $400. The Fathoms use a "revised" version of the W7s as well.
hmmm....by "can't touch" you mean exactly what?

hmmm....by "can't touch" you mean exactly what?

I think he means the price is over 400. Actually, it looks like a car 13W7 goes for approx 600-700 online. Although, I don't think JL warranties them if it isn't an authorized dealer.

The 13W7 in the Fathom isn't even for sale to my knowledge....

ah ok...for a sec I thought he meant you can't touch a 13W7 for $400, as in, there is no driver out there for $400 that can match the 13W7

hmmm....by "can't touch" you mean exactly what?

Yea... thats all I meant. I did not mean that there were not other viable options with great performance in that price range. ;)

I simply meant that the 13W7 costs quite a bit more than that. :)

-Eli

Would any owners of the F113 that bought in the NJ/Tri-state area be kind enough to PM me. Just wondering what dealer they used and what a reasonable price to expect is. Thanks.

-Matt

Yea... thats all I meant. I did not mean that there were not other viable options with great performance in that price range. ;)

I simply meant that the 13W7 costs quite a bit more than that. :)

-Eli
no worries....I just got confused :)

It is respectable based on the size of the room. In my 3600 cu ft room, dual SVS CS 20-39s could hit 117 db on that scene. YMMV.

-Eli

110db was in a 4900 cu ft room that opens to 2 other areas. My processor was at -5db so there was some room left, but the house was already complaining :D

Would any owners of the F113 that bought in the NJ/Tri-state area be kind enough to PM me. Just wondering what dealer they used and what a reasonable price to expect is. Thanks.

-Matt


Me too please. If any one in the NYC/Tri-state mind to PM. I belive there is a dealer in Long Island,any experience with them?

Thanks in advance

Djoel

I was Googling some info on the JL Audio F113, and found this. That looks like some serious performance. :eek: Talk about a flat frequency response...!

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/home-audio-subwoofers/2660-jl-audio-fathom-f113-ground-plane-results.html

Where can i order any of the Fathom subs in Toronto, Canada?

Thanks,
Steve

I will say this again,I know it was posted many times.But some people cannot get it!

The JL Audio subs are simply of better built quality than anything found under $5000.

From the amazing driver passing by the electronics(simply unmatched quality)going to the enclosure. It is a whole package that is unmatched.

And you have the compactness and SOUND QUALITY with high output down very deep!

Who bests this? No the large SVS do not count,it is very easy to make a large sub that goes deep and loud.Anyone can do this and this is why DIY is so popular.

Now I challenge anyone to do better in the same size! ;)

Good luck

PS JL Audio's new subs lay the beatdown on many SVS,even using dual drivers! Plus you get better sound quality.

JL did not design these for penny scratchers and those on a budget.These are priced very well.And economical when you pit them VS Velodyne DD series.And I know the JL have Velo beaten too.

Where can i order any of the Fathom subs in Toronto, Canada?

Thanks,
SteveIt is getting to be a long thread. Check post #638 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9033820&&#post9033820) and ask for Dave Singh... he's very pleasant and accomodating and will help facilitate an audition or purchase. :)

I am also interested in this sub, sounds promising - as I was prepared to buy an svs-12/2, but also have read that SVS will be introducing a 13" sub, at CES.. Kinda wondering what their answer will be... hehehe

As usual, It never ends.... :)

Thanks to all for spending the time to test and post reviews and results..

I guess my question would be, that with a room that is 8100 cu ft.. would 1 of these sub's be large enough to fill that area..? Large vaulted ceilings...

Warp

I will say this again,I know it was posted many times.But some people cannot get it!

The JL Audio subs are simply of better built quality than anything found under $5000.

From the amazing driver passing by the electronics(simply unmatched quality)going to the enclosure. It is a whole package that is unmatched.

And you have the compactness and SOUND QUALITY with high output down very deep!

Who bests this? No the large SVS do not count,it is very easy to make a large sub that goes deep and loud.Anyone can do this and this is why DIY is so popular.

Now I challenge anyone to do better in the same size! ;)

Good luck

PS JL Audio's new subs lay the beatdown on many SVS,even using dual drivers! Plus you get better sound quality.

JL did not design these for penny scratchers and those on a budget.These are priced very well.And economical when you pit them VS Velodyne DD series.And I know the JL have Velo beaten too.



So does this mean you are going to sell your other 28 subs because they all suck in comparison to the mighty Fathom?

So does this mean you are going to sell your other 28 subs because they all suck in comparison to the mighty Fathom?
http://smiliesftw.com/x/drama.gif

I know it was posted many times.But some people cannot get it!
:confused:

I think the Ear wanted that post to go in the f112 thread where people were comparing the SVS +/2 to the f113. That was my guess anyway.

I think the Ear wanted that post to go in the f112 thread where people were comparing the SVS +/2 to the f113. That was my guess anyway.

Makes more sense... I was reading that post and was wondering where in the heck that came from.. Made no sence :confused: But I guess now it does...

Although, also made me wonder where the defining line between enthusiastic and fanboy lies...

LoL, Im not flaming anyone so dont flame me.. :o You know some of you have thought the same thing...

Patiently waiting on some of the 'bass killer' DVD's et all to arrive. In the meantime I sourced a Serenity HD-DVD via coax and hit 114dB on a non-modded RS SPL meter....roughly 4 feet away.

I have not done the Klipsch comparison test. I will say this....the glass in the tabletops never moved with the Klipsch. nor did the dog exit the garage. The Fathom will need to be recalibrated since I moved it. I am very impressed and happy with the purchase.

I hope JL will release companion audio gear to compliment this offering...with special pricing for AVS members. Bookshelf cabinets please....no room for free standing mains here.

off topic...should I connect the analogue 5.1 cables to the Toshiba for more accurate audio as opposed to the coax? It's a ~7 foot run with lots of holes to enlarge in the cabinet, so if no real gain I'd rather pass on that task. I know I should post this query in the appropriate forum...forgive me. Too many forums, too many threads, too little time

Patiently waiting on some of the 'bass killer' DVD's et all to arrive.

off topic...should I connect the analogue 5.1 cables to the Toshiba for more accurate audio as opposed to the coax? It's a ~7 foot run with lots of holes to enlarge in the cabinet, so if no real gain I'd rather pass on that task. I know I should post this query in the appropriate forum...forgive me. Too many forums, too many threads, too little time


yeah, the sound is much larger and much cleaner that way, i have used both the analogue 5.1 cables and an HDMI cable, both provided superior sound. of course having a processor that can accept an HDMI cable would help solve your problem somewhat, with only that one cable, but you may want to put your money elsewhere

Can anyone compare this sub to the SVS-Ultra, as that would probably be a closer match, when you can have a little more added depth, with supposed tuning to 12hz..

I honestly have no clue... as Im just shopping here, and would like to figure out what to buy in the end... :)

thanks

Warp

Doh !!!! Double post

Read the thread titled "Official Craigsub rankings thread" currently a couple threads above this one.

Craig conducted an in depth review of the JL Fathoms as well as other High End Subwoofers for the purpose of comparison..

To whom ever is interested, it seems JL Audio's site finally updated their site with the Fathoms owners manual now ready for DL....

For alot of you owners you may already have a hard copy but the unlucky few, such as myself, were waiting for the site to be updated from the invalid link 'editme.pdf'.

I have two baby girls, and I would like to say, we recently have two more additions to our family; I am now a proud father of twin boys......... :D F113's that is. I knew I would get a boy one way or another. Anyhow, after having my F113 for several weeks, I loved it so much I went out and bought him a brother. I think I'll go smoke a cigar now!!! :D

At 130lbs apiece, you wife must be exhausted.....
Congrats on your 4 new improvements to the family...

Wish I had the funds to just toss around like that... I'd have 2 also..

I have two baby girls, and I would like to say, we recently have two more additions to our family; I am now a proud father of twin boys......... :D F113's that is. I knew I would get a boy one way or another. Anyhow, after having my F113 for several weeks, I loved it so much I went out and bought him a brother. I think I'll go smoke a cigar now!!! :D
Congratulations!

yeah, the sound is much larger and much cleaner that way, i have used both the analogue 5.1 cables and an HDMI cable, both provided superior sound. of course having a processor that can accept an HDMI cable would help solve your problem somewhat, with only that one cable, but you may want to put your money elsewhere
Noooo. You're supposed to type that the coax is equal to or better than the analogue. bleh

The 2 HDMI ports on the receiver are already occupa-doe, but thanks for the suggestion and input.

So does this mean you are going to sell your other 28 subs because they all suck in comparison to the mighty Fathom?

:p

People people,stop being serious like this was a funeral salon. Audio and subs are about having fun and not taking things so seriously.

I buy my toys for fun,I do not care.And no I will keep them all. My Paradigm Seismic 10 and 12 are fine little subs.Even my little Sunfire D8 is a fun tiny sub,for some applications it does a great job.

If a better sub comes out...just grab it. Have fun people and do not be so irritable.

Noooo. You're supposed to type that the coax is equal to or better than the analogue. bleh

The 2 HDMI ports on the receiver are already occupa-doe, but thanks for the suggestion and input.


what other source is more important that your HD-DVD player? everything else should take a back seat to it.

Congratulations!
Thanks

what other source is more important that your HD-DVD player? everything else should take a back seat to it.
Well, there have been some HDMI handshake issues with the Tosh players and it took forever to get the firmware update disc. Since the Arcam DV29 plays all media except HD and has no handshake issues I have been using that and the Moto HD-DVR in the two available HDMI slots on the Acram AVR350.


The update disc arrived this week. I might swap the components this weekend for a firmware shakedown.

:p

People people,stop being serious like this was a funeral salon. Audio and subs are about having fun and not taking things so seriously.

I buy my toys for fun,I do not care.And no I will keep them all. My Paradigm Seismic 10 and 12 are fine little subs.Even my little Sunfire D8 is a fun tiny sub,for some applications it does a great job.

If a better sub comes out...just grab it. Have fun people and do not be so irritable.
I think we're all just jealous.

I know I am :D

I think we're all just jealous.

I know I am :D
I second that Im Jealous too. All I need is 27 more subs and I'll be tied with TheEAR.

Lets keep this thread active. More JL owners need to post pics of JL subs.

I keep trying to find any major and even minor fault with the f113's I have and NADA! The first subs I can call almost perfect,as nothing is perfect.

Any movie thrown,any music CD...all comes out in full glory with a foundation unheard before.I have many subs capable of deep bass output,the JL line is simply refined sub bass reproduction taken to the next level.

Lets keep this thread active. More JL owners need to post pics of JL subs.

I keep trying to find any major and even minor fault with the f113's I have and NADA! The first subs I can call almost perfect,as nothing is perfect.

Any movie thrown,any music CD...all comes out in full glory with a foundation unheard before.I have many subs capable of deep bass output,the JL line is simply refined sub bass reproduction taken to the next level.

Welcome back Theear, I thought some of negative people had chased you outta here. Good to see ya back!! :D

I have two JL 13's now and all I have to say is Wowoowowowowowow :eek: ! OK enough of that already!

Listen guys I know, my F113's won't stay on top forever or even that long. But I cofidently say this one heck of sub......., bar none the best I have ever had.

I'm going to try and get some pics of my setup on here in the next couple of weeks. I have all new setup with 2 F113, all new Salk speakers and a XBR2 KDS70 Sony.. I want to show them off while they're still new. Even the wife is happy with my gear!!

craigsub and others,

i have a 2300 sq' theater i use for movies only. it includes 2 dd18's co-located in a corner. i've had them one year.
if i was ready to accept the monetary loss, would two fathom 13's be a real upgrade for me? i'm not in the market, but where i live i won't be able to audition a fathom. so, your answers to this question will give me a better idea about the fathom.

thanks

craigsub and others,

i have a 2300 sq' theater i use for movies only. it includes 2 dd18's co-located in a corner. i've had them one year.
if i was ready to accept the monetary loss, would two fathom 13's be a real upgrade for me?

thanks

Real,but slight. A bit more output down deep,SQ being very close.

I would honestly try dual f113's,as in my view losing money for a slight gain may not be worth it.

or...

Just add them to your Velo subs ;) I go the add more subs route,but you know sanity has gone way south here.

craigsub and others,

i have a 2300 sq' theater i use for movies only. it includes 2 dd18's co-located in a corner. i've had them one year.
if i was ready to accept the monetary loss, would two fathom 13's be a real upgrade for me? i'm not in the market, but where i live i won't be able to audition a fathom. so, your answers to this question will give me a better idea about the fathom.

thanks


Did you say 2300 sq ft? That is one large space to fill :eek: . I had the Fathom in for a side by side with my DD-18 and found them very close in performance. I actually prefered the DD-18 for movies and found the Fathom a bit better for music. You should check out Mark Seaton's new Submersive. Based upon early returns, it appears that multiples of these are less expensive and will out perform either the DD-18 or the Fathom.

Lets keep this thread active. More JL owners need to post pics of JL subs.

Haha! How often can you say this sub is g-r-r-r-r-e-a-t! :D

Drew,

As often as I am impressed with these subs,...each day! :D Viva la revolution,viva JL Audio. :p

I just read all 16 pages of this thread, I wish I had the cash to buy this sub...I can dream

:p

People people,stop being serious like this was a funeral salon. Audio and subs are about having fun and not taking things so seriously.

I buy my toys for fun,I do not care.And no I will keep them all. My Paradigm Seismic 10 and 12 are fine little subs.Even my little Sunfire D8 is a fun tiny sub,for some applications it does a great job.

If a better sub comes out...just grab it. Have fun people and do not be so irritable.


Hey, inquiring minds wanted to know! ;)

Canuck… aka… TheEAR you’re sounding like a JL Audio barker, it gets annoying reading it repeatedly http://www.soundonsound.com/images/forum/graemlins/headbang.gif http://www.soundonsound.com/images/forum/graemlins/headbang.gif http://www.soundonsound.com/images/forum/graemlins/headbang.gif

Canuck… aka… TheEAR you’re sounding like a JL Audio barker, it gets annoying reading it repeatedly
my thoughts are similar...I was thinking of this:

http://upshizzle.com/gallery/albums/12.06/fanboyalert.gif

...every time I read one the aforementioned's posts. :rolleyes:

The twins are coming tomorrow! twin f113s that is. :D My baby girl is not due until end of february. Will have to break in the subs quickly as I suspect the wife won't be too thrilled about the house rattling while the baby sleeps.

The twins are coming tomorrow! twin f113s that is. :D My baby girl is not due until end of february. Will have to break in the subs quickly as I suspect the wife won't be too thrilled about the house rattling while the baby sleeps.

ROFL. That is true. My girl is 8 weeks old this thursday. ;)

-Eli

...every time I read one the aforementioned's posts. :rolleyes:


Every time! Stop reading the same post over and over then.

Every time! Stop reading the same post over and over then.
LOL....you can't be serious! :rolleyes:

did you not notice that others posted the same feeling prior to mine? :confused: Do you actually want me to quote every post you've made in this thread to show this?

you probably are a fine fellow, and are just over-exuberant about your fathoms, which is understandable......but just cut down on the drum beating a little and you would be taken a little more seriously, 30 subs or not. ;)

There's one for sale on Ebay. Item number: 230066811830

LOL....you can't be serious! :rolleyes:

did you not notice that others posted the same feeling prior to mine? :confused: Do you actually want me to quote every post you've made in this thread to show this?

you probably are a fine fellow, and are just over-exuberant about your fathoms, which is understandable......but just cut down on the drum beating a little and you would be taken a little more seriously, 30 subs or not. ;)


Shervin,

You need to get in the mix here (rather than just kibitzing :p ), why not take that short drive down to JL and hear the Fathom for yourself. Then do a little comparo with your DIY monster. Might be fun.

Shervin,

You need to get in the mix here (rather than just kibitzing :p ), why not take that short drive down to JL and hear the Fathom for yourself. Then do a little comparo with your DIY monster. Might be fun.
didn't you hear?? we have a big tour planned to the JL facilities early february..... JL_smith will help coordinate, but we have around 10-15 south florida AVSers that will be taking a nice day event, looking at their production line, test drive the fathom and gotham, have a nice chit chat with the JL guys, and lunch. :)

if you are around, you are more than welcome...the more the merrier! heck, even fan #1 TheEar can afford a plane ticket and hotel and come down and see the horse's mouth (no Pun intended :p )

Unfortunately my DIY monster is now property of a lucky friend, making room for the Two Towers.... dual 18" avalanche monster 650Liter tubes:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=756408

:eek: :eek: :D ;) ....did you say flat to 10hz? :D

didn't you hear?? we have a big tour planned to the JL facilities early february..... JL_smith will help coordinate, but we have around 10-15 south florida AVSers that will be taking a nice day event, looking at their production line, test drive the fathom and gotham, have a nice chit chat with the JL guys, and lunch. :)

if you are around, you are more than welcome...the more the merrier! heck, even fan #1 TheEar can afford a plane ticket and hotel and come down and see the horse's mouth (no Pun intended :p )

Unfortunately my DIY monster is now property of a lucky friend, making room for the Two Towers.... dual 18" avalanche monster 650Liter tubes:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=756408

:eek: :eek: :D ;) ....did you say flat to 10hz? :D

I had not heard this but it sounds like a lot of fun, are you now sans sub or do you still have that old SOS or SMS or whatever it was :p ?

Ooh I want in on the JL tour. That'd be worth a drive.

I had not heard this but it sounds like a lot of fun, are you now sans sub or do you still have that old SOS or SMS or whatever it was :p ?
yeah, I still have it....he was cool with me keeping it until I complete the twins. He can't complain anyways, as I basically sold it to him at cost as a favor....not much you can complain about when you get near Ultra/2 performance at NSD costs ;)

Ooh I want in on the JL tour. That'd be worth a drive.
no SVSers allowed! :p ..........hehehe.....just kidding man. Yeah, I'm gonna send a reminder thread later in january, so keep your e-ears open. :)

didn't you hear?? we have a big tour planned to the JL facilities early february..... JL_smith will help coordinate, but we have around 10-15 south florida AVSers that will be taking a nice day event, looking at their production line, test drive the fathom and gotham, have a nice chit chat with the JL guys, and lunch. :)



I too would be interested in this little outing. I'm right down here in Davie, FL. Please let me know the exact plans when you come up with them.

didn't you hear?? we have a big tour planned to the JL facilities early february..... JL_smith will help coordinate, but we have around 10-15 south florida AVSers that will be taking a nice day event, looking at their production line, test drive the fathom and gotham, have a nice chit chat with the JL guys, and lunch. :)

if you are around, you are more than welcome...the more the merrier! heck, even fan #1 TheEar can afford a plane ticket and hotel and come down and see the horse's mouth (no Pun intended :p )

Unfortunately my DIY monster is now property of a lucky friend, making room for the Two Towers.... dual 18" avalanche monster 650Liter tubes:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=756408

:eek: :eek: :D ;) ....did you say flat to 10hz? :D


Let us no how it goes!

HELP.
I have been in the sub market for some time and had come to the conclusion that I needed a sub that had both LFE connections as well as high level (speaker - Neutrik etc) connections. This is because I have some two channel material that will not use the sub if not connected via the speaker posts. Am I wrong in this logic? I really like the sound of the Fathom but if it doens't play when I am listening to 2-channel that really isn't going to work for me. I use an Arcam AV8 and either an Arcam DV29 or Slim Devices Transporter for music on anologue direct via the AV8. The Transporter certainly only has two channel output. Please tell me I am wrong and explain how to makee it work. I have a Fathom 113 waiting for me.
Cheers,
Mike

Mike:
http://www.russound.com/accessories.htm and click on 'ADP-1.2 Adapter'
http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_4993.html (available cheaper at Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/Scosche-4-Channel-Adjustable-Amplifier-Interface/dp/B00009UHSO

Thanks! Is this a feasible solution or will it cause a noticable degradation of audio quality? Even when both are available on a sub some people seem to push one way or the other in terms of overall (7.1) sound quality. Any thoughts?
Cheers,
Mike

If this sub outting is after superbowl weekend, I'd love to stop by. Any date set yet? I'll probably be in N. Miami then.

Ran

Mike, these products are simple resistive voltage dividers -- EXACT performance depends on your amps voltage linearity into a higher than designed for impedance, and your subs input sensitivity.

That's to get out of any performance guarantee :)

Mike, it's the same thing speaker level inputs on subs do.
ACI supplies (but does not sell separately) similar adapters with their subs.

Risk $20 and see if it solves your problem -- it should. :)

The twins have arrived!!!! :)

I watched the poor guys lug them down into the basement huffing and puffing.

I'm hoping to get them unboxed and setup over the next few days and then I'll post some impressions (as if you haven't had enough impressions on this forum already!)

The Bogg

The twins have arrived!!!! :)

I watched the poor guys lug them down into the basement huffing and puffing.

I'm hoping to get them unboxed and setup over the next few days and then I'll post some impressions (as if you haven't had enough impressions on this forum already!)

The Bogg
Two 113's in a basement? Bad idea...could alter the tilt of the Earth on its' axis or cause stress fractures in natural gas pipelines.

PM me after you get one of them back upstairs....I'll swing by and dispose of the threat for a nominal fee. Glad we were able to disarm this situation before Homeland Security got involved....you're welcome. :)

Hope you enjoy the twins. I am envious of those w/more than one.

Two 113's in a basement? Bad idea...could alter the tilt of the Earth on its' axis or cause stress fractures in natural gas pipelines.

PM me after you get one of them back upstairs....I'll swing by and dispose of the threat for a nominal fee. Glad we were able to disarm this situation before Homeland Security got involved....you're welcome. :)

Hope you enjoy the twins. I am envious of those w/more than one.

Kshep,

Have you had more time to evaluate yours? I am interested in your opinions.

-Eli

Question to Manville Smith,

Do you have any subs in reviewers hands right now?

As one very positive and one positive review is good,I am sure it would be a great publicity to have more reviewers testing f113's.

There will be a review in an upcoming issue of The Perfect Vision. A month or two away, I believe.

Best regards,

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.

Where is everyone buying the fathoms? I have had difficulty finding a store online any recommendations?

Where is everyone buying the fathoms? I have had difficulty finding a store online any recommendations?

They are only available from an authorized JL HOME dealer and there are not that many. You can search for one on the JL site. if you are serious about buying one, I can point you to a good dealer.

I have seen a couple for sale used on the net but they are selling at close to retail.

-Eli

The twins have arrived!!!! :)

I watched the poor guys lug them down into the basement huffing and puffing.

I'm hoping to get them unboxed and setup over the next few days and then I'll post some impressions (as if you haven't had enough impressions on this forum already!)

The Bogg


Welcome to the twin F113 club, I think that makes four of us in this forum that have twins!! Congradulations! (Nethmos, TheEar, Im the man, and now the Bogg and growing)

The twins have arrived!!!! :)

I watched the poor guys lug them down into the basement huffing and puffing.

I'm hoping to get them unboxed and setup over the next few days and then I'll post some impressions (as if you haven't had enough impressions on this forum already!)

The Bogg


Welcome to the twin F113 club, I think that makes four of us in this forum that have twins!! Congratulations! (Nethmos, TheEar, Im the man, and now the Bogg and growing)

You won't regret your purchase. My experence with the twin F113s is the second best threesome I've ever had!!

Anyone gone from a SVS Plus/2 to a F113?

Michael

Anyone gone from a SVS Plus/2 to a F113?

Michael
Yes I have two F113's and SVS plus/2

My experience with the twin F113s is the second best threesome I've ever had!!

And a new ad headline is born! :D :eek: :D

Yes I have two F113's and SVS plus/2

SO how do they compare?

r u serious or joking? :D

I think that makes four of us in this forum that have twins!! Congradulations! (Nethmos, TheEar, Im the man, and now the Bogg and growing)
You forgot CraigSub.. ;)

I have been considering purchasing a F113. I found a used one for $2800 shipped. Is this a good price or would I be better off w/ a new one. What discount can I expect on a new F113.

I realize we can not discuss pricing here so if someone could help me out I would really appreciate it. Please PM me or email me at briansmith@charter.net

Thanks in advance!

-Brian

I have been considering purchasing a F113. I found a used one for $2800 shipped. Is this a good price or would I be better off w/ a new one. What discount can I expect on a new F113.

I realize we can not discuss pricing here so if someone could help me out I would really appreciate it. Please PM me or email me at briansmith@charter.net

Thanks in advance!

-Brian

I saw the one on ebay for $2800. It scares me when you see someone sell something after just having it for a week. Did he damage it, and is trying to dump it, or can he really not afford it after he came home with it.

Michael

I saw the one on ebay for $2800. It scares me when you see someone sell something after just having it for a week. Did he damage it, and is trying to dump it, or can he really not afford it after he came home with it.

Michael

That is a good question,I cannot see anyone not being satisfied with the built quality and performance.

And $2800US ...used!!! It is not even a good deal.Looks like a quick impulsive purchase and wife said NO WAY JOSE! ;)

Or, Just could be one of the many infamous Ebay scammers...

There is always someone new to ebay not familiar with all the scams out there...

They specifically target big ticket items...

I mean, the JL would be sold in Audiogon b4 it'd be taken to ebay..

Youd Think :confused:

agreed i would be very careful buying something like this off ebay.

SO how do they compare?


Please see: Posts 646,651, and 673.

Welcome to the twin F113 club, I think that makes four of us in this forum that have twins!! Congradulations! (Nethmos, TheEar, Im the man, and now the Bogg and growing)


Me too :o Happy with the twins. Some of the best "twins" I've ever had, the other ones were referring to a woman :p

James

I see some else selling a F113 on Adiogon now,with zero feedback,surprise,surprise!!

Something fishy!!!!Becareful people.

Djoel

For the latest news on the f113... check out our home page.

Very nice honor from The Perfect Vision.

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.

The JL storm has swept another reviewer! They described the sub well,congrats you deserve the honors.

No wonder I am raving so much,and helped sell a few close to home. :D

agreed i would be very careful buying something like this off ebay.
Independent of getting scammed, you DO NOT want to get one shipped via UPS or standard FEDEX (the way the Ebayer is advertising). JL ships to me via a trucking company. The subs have 4 large green "shock absorbers" on the bottom of the box. Don't expect UPS or FEDEX to handle it correctly. :( With this heavy of a weight sub and a bad toss/roll, expect corner damage when it doesn't land on the green shock absorbers. :eek:

I had my F112 and F113 both shipped via FED EX and they arrived in perfect shape. Unless the Duke Boys are driving the Fed Ex truck, I think 99% of the time you are ok as long as all the factory packing is used. I'd say you're knocking JL's factory packing more than anything by even mentioning that it will be damaged in a roll. It not like they would put this 150lb beast on the top shelf of the truck. Steve H, did you read the whole eBay auction ad (that'd be no)? The seller explained why they chose Fed Ex and proceeded to say they will ship it anyway the buyer wants.

I had my F112 and F113 both shipped via FED EX and they arrived in perfect shape. Unless the Duke Boys are driving the Fed Ex truck, I think 99% of the time you are ok as long as all the factory packing is used. I'd say you're knocking JL's factory packing more than anything by even mentioning that it will be damaged in a roll. It not like they would put this 150lb beast on the top shelf of the truck. Steve H, did you read the whole eBay auction ad (that'd be no)? The seller explained why they chose Fed Ex and proceeded to say they will ship it anyway the buyer wants.

The fact that JL took the time to put the green "Shock Absorbers" on the package speaks volumes (pun intended) about the care in their packaging.:) It is packed very well.:)

Saying that, UPS and FEDEX ground allows for a waist level drops. If you get one of those drops, I'll guarantee you will have a severe cracked wound on the corner. At 150 pounds, I will bet a 1 foot drop will impact the corner. Most damages happen with conveyor systems, not on the delivery trucks. To your other point, the Duke Boy's didn't crack the Moonshine so I would trust them with a F113!!! :D

All my point was that FEDEX and UPS ground services don't recognize "up arrows" or "fragile". Something this heavy and expensive should ship freight unless you want to roll the dice.

I have been considering purchasing a F113. I found a used one for $2800 shipped. Is this a good price or would I be better off w/ a new one. What discount can I expect on a new F113.

I realize we can not discuss pricing here so if someone could help me out I would really appreciate it. Please PM me or email me at briansmith@charter.net

Thanks in advance!

-Brian

Without mentioning pricing, there is always a difference between retail vs street prices. In this case its about a grand difference. I would also be curious if there would be a warranty. MSmith could answer that question.

Warranty applies only to the original purchaser from an authorized dealer and is not transferrable.

Two 113's in a basement? Bad idea...could alter the tilt of the Earth on its' axis or cause stress fractures in natural gas pipelines.

PM me after you get one of them back upstairs....I'll swing by and dispose of the threat for a nominal fee. Glad we were able to disarm this situation before Homeland Security got involved....you're welcome. :)

Hope you enjoy the twins. I am envious of those w/more than one.

Whew, thank goodness you're able to defuse this potentially disastrous situation. Just imagine, I almost tried to listen to 2 of them! ;)

No danger using dual f113's just god like subsonics to complement any music or movies with deep bass. I keep my f113's side by side to get the extra headroom.

No danger using dual f113's just god like subsonics to complement any music or movies with deep bass. I keep my f113's side by side to get the extra headroom.

mine are on opposite sides of the room!

Glad to see so many dual sub users even with such a powerful sub as the f113. I'm looking forward to demoing Asher's (the Blogg) pair when he gets around to installing them so I can hear for myself and compare them to Rob's (RMK) and others impressions. In talking to Dave Singh, Asher had the distinction of being one of the few people in Toronto with a pair of these subs, maybe the only one. Some of my material such as the Soundhound Organ CDs have been known to bring a sub to its knees, so we will see.

Glad to see so many dual sub users even with such a powerful sub as the f113. I'm looking forward to demoing Asher's (the Blogg) pair when he gets around to installing them so I can hear for myself and compare them to Rob's (RMK) and others impressions. In talking to Dave Singh, Asher had the distinction of being one of the few people in Toronto with a pair of these subs, maybe the only one. Some of my material such as the Soundhound Organ CDs have been known to bring a sub to its knees, so we will see.

Funny you would mention the Soundhound Organ CD (I can’t remember where I got my copy ;) ).

The fourth track (I think) has content that sent my DD-18 into apoplexy. The Fathom reacted the same way even though it does go a bit deeper than the 18. That is truly THE subwoofer torture test disk.

Glad to see you put it to good use, Rob seeing how its become a subwoofer cult classic. :D NO surprise it caused both the DD-18 and F113 to gasp, but I am curious how it sounded or if it created any notable distress.

Nice choice of the fourth track, its one of my reference pieces when I compare subs. I'm not certain because I obtained my copy years ago but CD#2 may have been released as Organ Fantasia since it was recorded by Robert AG in the same church in Pasadena using an Allen Digital Organ. I believe Track #4 is "Prelude in Classic Style ", the last 90 seconds has sustained infrasonic bass down to around 10hz at very high SPL's. I've never attempted to measure how loud because I'm usually running to lower the volume for fear of smoking the driver.

I had half a dozen people from my audiophile club over in November for an afternoon of too much red wine to check out my systems and played track 4 to demo the huge dynamic range (15hz-22000hz +/-3db) of my totem shaman speakers . At half volume I thought the woofers were going to pop out of the cabinet before I turned it down. :eek: It didn't bottom surprisingly but I have heard it bottom several well known subwoofers. ;)

I've been trying to get ahold of Soundhound CD#1 which Ed Mullen liked to use in his tests. Track #9 on CD1 "Be Thou My Vision" contains a sustained 17 Hz note at the 1:30 mark which also causes distress in lesser subs.

Glad to see you put it to good use, Rob seeing how its become a subwoofer cult classic. :D NO surprise it caused both the DD-18 and F113 to gasp, but I am curious how it sounded or if it created any notable distress.

I wouldn't call the sound musical or in distress. Both subs attempted to play the notes and the drivers were (I assume) at max excursion. There was a low frequency sound but my guess is it was not what that organ was playing. It sounded more like the sound produced by rolling down the rear car windows while driving at certain speeds. In other words, not pleasant.

That speaks impressively for both subs. The loud inaudible infrasonic on that track makes you feel like something is not right and if the driver objects too much it will bottom or cough. There is lots of air coming out of the 32 ft pipes which you can feel rather than hear in a capable sub. You can also see the driver being pushed to excursion as it cycles ten times a second. We're dealing with the sub's limits with this torture track and you describe the phenomena well. :cool:

PS Glad you didn't wreck anything. I dug up some of his notes to the CD:

"I would _never_ let a recording that had bass this strong get released generally to the public, as very few people would be able to play it without puking their speakers. All commercial recordings are filtered in one way or another, either by actual sub-sonic filtering, or by microphone choice and placement. This recording was not. It used a custom built mixer with microphones capable of near DC frequency range with absolutely no post-filtering - just the raw, uninhibited signal from 3 spaced omni-directional microphones in a huge room, recorded straight to digital."

""Warning!: This recording can SHRED subs! It was specifically recorded by SoundHound with all the stops out on the subsonics as a wringer for those who have serious wooferage to play with. A commercial CD would NOT have this subsonic content without warning stickers all over it. I would not put any sub in the ELT's class through it. Not knocking the ELT sub, but it was not designed to shake foundations of houses. No matter what you have, start out with low volume levels and when your sub shows signs of stress, don't go any louder! A lot of the really high power stuff is not audible, so don't just trust your ears. I'd keep it away from any sub not solid under 20hz."

:D

This is the first time Ive heard about a CD like this. If I want to buy this CD, where and what specifically should I look for. Is there a particular version I should avoid and or should be looking for?

Thanks, much appreciated..

I`ve enjoyed all the posts about the fathom113 and have recently introduced this sub to my Maggie system. Very powerful and musical sub with nice system integration. Seem to have a ground loop buzzing issue which I temporarly solved with a cheater plug. Gonna try an Ebtech HUMX Voltage Hum Filter to address problem........................

I`ve enjoyed all the posts about the fathom113 and have recently introduced this sub to my Maggie system. Very powerful and musical sub with nice system integration. Seem to have a ground loop buzzing issue which I temporarly solved with a cheater plug. Gonna try an Ebtech HUMX Voltage Hum Filter to address problem........................

Are you using unbalanced inputs? If so, you need to experiment with the Input Isolation switch on the rear panel. It ships in "isolated" mode... you may want to try it in "grounded" mode to see if it helps. This switch will not help with balanced inputs.

Best regards, and thank you for choosing a Fathom for your system.

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.

so John and Rob...how about getting o'l Sherv a copy of this CD?! ;)

TrzVpr. You can't buy these in stores or online. They were made for his own use and Soundhound generously shared them online briefly in 2003 before certain forums stopped it for bandwidth reasons. With so much subsonic content it would never be sold as a commercial CD without filtering most of it out. That's why its one of the best subwoofer torture test CDs. Anyway I'm looking forward to hearing how the Fathom's huge driver and amp reproduces that ultra deep loud organ, though I'm sure Rob described it right as usual.

so John and Rob...how about getting o'l Sherv a copy of this CD?! ;)

Hmm...Santa confirmed you've been naughty because you said not so nice things about Jakeman and his pals earlier this year. But Santa says its important to forget such things so PM me your coordinates. By the way Jakeman told Santa he'd love a pair of Ssapribo DIY cables under his tree this year. ;) :D

Hmm...Santa confirmed you've been naughty because you said not so nice things about Jakeman and his pals earlier this year. But Santa says its important to forget such things so PM me your coordinates. By the way Jakeman told Santa he'd love a pair of Ssapribo DIY cables under his tree this year. ;) :D

When one starts referring to one's self in the third party, it is time to start drinking. John, you have your orders ... :D

Hmm...Santa confirmed you've been naughty because you said not so nice things about Jakeman and his pals earlier this year. But Santa says its important to forget such things so PM me your coordinates. By the way Jakeman told Santa he'd love a pair of Ssapribo DIY cables under his tree this year. ;) :D
yes indeed...santa gave me an ultimatum and told me that if I behave like earlier in the year, Ol' Sherv will get the guantanamo treatment! heheh :p So it's all good with the new and much improved ShervV.2 ...just ask Rob! heheh.

PM Sent with coordinates.

by the way John, since everyone seems to be upgrading around here, when are we gonna see Jakeman Subs V2, with like 2-4 Submerssives or Fathoms or, gulp, dare I say, a DIY solution a la Infinite baffle? :eek: :D

Hey Craig, lots of christmas cheer around here these last couple of days. There's no snow for skiing on this side of the lake so my bar has been depleted more than normal. That was John speaking for Jakeman, whose gone to fix a couple of Mojitos.

by the way John, since everyone seems to be upgrading around here, when are we gonna see Jakeman Subs V2, with like 2-4 Submerssives or Fathoms or, gulp, dare I say, a DIY solution a la Infinite baffle? :eek: :D

Well these f113s have caught my interest for sure. :cool: The DD-18s and Marks new creations are also on the radar screen. So I'm in research mode again and I spoke to The Bogg, whose in my audiophile group, about a session at his place over these holidays when he gets his HT in better shape and the pair installed. I'm down to a pair of EP600s from the quad earlier this year and will likely buy another pair of one of these new subs. An infinite baffle... Jesse has always discouraged me from an infinite baffle because the closet is to the rear of my HT which he says is not optimal but I'm still wondering about that alternative. Other DIY solutions are a possibility which was why I was interested in getting together on my next trip to Florida seeing how you've built some neat subs.

Thanks for the tip,just found the SoundHound files,downloading in progress! Lets see what an HGS18.f112,f113,B15 and SW12 will do...or fail to do. :o

Well these f113s have caught my interest for sure. :cool: The DD-18s and Marks new creations are also on the radar screen. So I'm in research mode again and I spoke to The Bogg, whose in my audiophile group, about a session at his place over these holidays when he gets his HT in better shape and the pair installed. I'm down to a pair of EP600s from the quad earlier this year and will likely buy another pair of one of these new subs. An infinite baffle... Jesse has always discouraged me from an infinite baffle because the closet is to the rear of my HT which he says is not optimal but I'm still wondering about that alternative. Other DIY solutions are a possibility which was why I was interested in getting together on my next trip to Florida seeing how you've built some neat subs.
Well, either way you go, this is the fun part of the journey....the research phase! ;) And after learning much about different subwoofer alignments, probable causes of IMD and overall THD in particular implementations, and effects on the overall SQ of the implemenations, you will undoubtedly make a wise choice whichever way.

I was lucky enough to hear a well designed IB, and to this day that feeling of awe and pure disbelief in the clean output of this alignment, it will surely take something exceptional for me to consider anything else.

anyways, dont know how much I will be online, but a merry christmas to you and merry christmas to all out there!

Thanks for the tip,just found the SoundHound files,downloading in progress! Lets see what an HGS18.f112,f113,B15 and SW12 will do...or fail to do. :o

PM Sent, Any chance we can download the these files as well?

Manville,

This is an interesting one, I switched from balanced Harmonic Tech XLR from Krell Showcase to an unbalanced RCA Monster Subwoofer cable and the buzz went away. Maybe some kind of mis-match with the KRELL ? Isn`t this condition supposed to be the other way around ?

Davidmag,

Have you tried the input isolation switch on the rear panel as Manville suggested?

Manville,

This is an interesting one, I switched from balanced Harmonic Tech XLR from Krell Showcase to an unbalanced RCA Monster Subwoofer cable and the buzz went away. Maybe some kind of mis-match with the KRELL ? Isn`t this condition supposed to be the other way around ?

That's odd... the unbalanced inputs are optically isolated so they're pretty noise-immune under most circumstances, but they shouldn't be more noise-immune than the balanced connection... are you sure the balanced cable is in good condition?

Glad to see so many dual sub users even with such a powerful sub as the f113. I'm looking forward to demoing Asher's (the Blogg) pair when he gets around to installing them so I can hear for myself and compare them to Rob's (RMK) and others impressions. In talking to Dave Singh, Asher had the distinction of being one of the few people in Toronto with a pair of these subs, maybe the only one. Some of my material such as the Soundhound Organ CDs have been known to bring a sub to its knees, so we will see.

The Blogg?!!! I know I've been dipping into the cookies and snacks lately but I haven't put on enough weight to be called a blogg! :mad:

I'll look forward to hearing/feeling the Soundhound stuff. Got plenty of torture tracks already which are quite fun.

The Bogg

Hey TheEar,

how do you like the Aerial SW12? You mentioned previously that you thought highly of it...what kind of output and quality compared to the F113? I had just about committed to buying a pair of SW12s before the Fathoms came out. Never heard it though.

Ha...good one Asher. I'm going to blame my wife's fine Mojitos for the extra "l". :) :D

Hey TheEar,

how do you like the Aerial SW12? You mentioned previously that you thought highly of it...what kind of output and quality compared to the F113? I had just about committed to buying a pair of SW12s before the Fathoms came out. Never heard it though.


First off the Aerial is an exquisite sub,fit and finish are second by a hair only to the Fathom.I have mine in rosewood finish to match my Dynaudio Contour speakers.

The output would be around that of a single f112,this is not to be taken in stone as I have done comparos by ear and did not push them as far as they can go.

For depth the Aerial has some serious output to around 20Hz and good energy to 16Hz.Its 12.5" woofer having 2" on max cone travel can move sone good air,and being ported it helps down deep.

A very high quality sub,@ 5K not cheap but you pay for what Aerial does best,superb quality all around. Also it is built like a tank,or like the Fathom subs.