That's odd... the unbalanced inputs are optically isolated so they're pretty noise-immune under most circumstances, but they shouldn't be more noise-immune than the balanced connection... are you sure the balanced cable is in good condition?
Indeed, very odd. As part of my investigation, I actually disconected every components power outlet and cable connection. As soon as I plugged XLR (which is in perfect condition) into the unpowered Krell processor the hum starts. I think the sub is picking up signal from the ceiling dimmers as the buzz subsides about 80% if they are off, but still doesn`t make sense that the unbalanced cable would be OK? So I keep the RCA cable in system and all is well, but wonder why ? Awesome sub, have never heard better Manville...........

Try opening the ballanced connector and disconnecting the shield (pin 1) on either end of the cable, preferrably at the receive/subwoofer end. The hum should go away.

So do I bill JL R&D for the solution? :rolleyes:

Just kidding. For the record, the optical isolation is pretty cool. This is just a very small, but common problem that is more likely a problem of the Krell Showcase. Out of curiosity, was the buzz in the speakers, the subwoofer, or both?

Happy Holidays.

Try opening the ballanced connector and disconnecting the shield (pin 1) on either end of the cable, preferrably at the receive/subwoofer end. The hum should go away.

So do I bill JL R&D for the solution? :rolleyes:

Just kidding. For the record, the optical isolation is pretty cool. This is just a very small, but common problem that is more likely a problem of the Krell Showcase. Out of curiosity, was the buzz in the speakers, the subwoofer, or both?

Happy Holidays.
OK Mark, opened up XLR, is it the Black, Red or 2 silver wires, I actually opened up the male end, but can reverse...............thanks for your expertise...

Try opening the ballanced connector and disconnecting the shield (pin 1) on either end of the cable, preferrably at the receive/subwoofer end. The hum should go away.

So do I bill JL R&D for the solution? :rolleyes:

Just kidding. For the record, the optical isolation is pretty cool. This is just a very small, but common problem that is more likely a problem of the Krell Showcase. Out of curiosity, was the buzz in the speakers, the subwoofer, or both?

Happy Holidays.
Out of curiosity, was the buzz in the speakers, the subwoofer, or both?

Just in the Fatom113 Sub.....................

OK Mark, opened up XLR, is it the Black, Red or 2 silver wires, I actually opened up the male end, but can reverse...............thanks for your expertise...

Hi David,

It depends on the wire construction and type as to the colors of the wires, etc. If it's the sub buzzing only, I would probably keep the sheild connected on the send end (receiver or EQ), and then float/disconnect it on the receive/subwoofer end, which should be the male end of the cable (pins inside the shell). If you look closely the black and red wires are likely connected to pins 2 & 3, where the numbering is usually small, raised lettering on the inside of the connector. If you have two silver wires, I'm guessing one may connect to pin 1, and the other may connect to a tab which is the shell of the connector. You should be able to see which wire goes into the sheild of the cable and which are separate wires. If there is a 4th, larger tab that is connected, disconnect this first, so that pin1 is still connected. If that doesn't get rid of the buzz, then disconnect pin 1, so the two internally twisted wires are going to just pin 2 & 3. Leave the other end of the cable as is.

First off the Aerial is an exquisite sub,fit and finish are second by a hair only to the Fathom.I have mine in rosewood finish to match my Dynaudio Contour speakers.

The output would be around that of a single f112,this is not to be taken in stone as I have done comparos by ear and did not push them as far as they can go.

For depth the Aerial has some serious output to around 20Hz and good energy to 16Hz.Its 12.5" woofer having 2" on max cone travel can move sone good air,and being ported it helps down deep.

A very high quality sub,@ 5K not cheap but you pay for what Aerial does best,superb quality all around. Also it is built like a tank,or like the Fathom subs.

Thanks for the info. Is there an Aerial dealer in Montreal? I was considering their model 9 as well as the SW12 (which is no longer needed).

I purchased mine slightly used from the original buyer(like new)second hand.I do not know any Aerial dealers in Montreal. Try Filtronique SonOr or Audioville...I have not visited these stores in a while now.

I know who sells JL Audio here. ;)

Indeed, very odd. As part of my investigation, I actually disconected every components power outlet and cable connection. As soon as I plugged XLR (which is in perfect condition) into the unpowered Krell processor the hum starts. I think the sub is picking up signal from the ceiling dimmers as the buzz subsides about 80% if they are off, but still doesn`t make sense that the unbalanced cable would be OK? So I keep the RCA cable in system and all is well, but wonder why ? Awesome sub, have never heard better Manville...........

My F113 did the exact same thing. I unplugged all of the connections to the back of my Athem AVM50 and narrowed it down to the cable box. Once i did that, i used a different rca cable to carry the digital signal from the cable box to the processor, seemed to have worked, but still get a rather loud buzz from the sub with a dimmer light in use. I watch movies with that light off, so that isnt an issue.

Merry Christmas guys.

Hi all,

my brother-in-law came over and helped me unbox the twins. When I took the grille covers off his comment was, "you may as well throw those away because they aren't going back on!". Damn that is a fine looking woofer and front baffle!! :)

The box and packing and gloves get definite thumbs up, as do the instructions.
I put on WOTW and it hadn't been calibrated correctly but ohmigod my pants were flapping! :eek:

Unfortunately, all was not well. :( I had bought some cheapie long runs of balanced cables so that I could at least hear them until my basement was finished and then I'd get better cables etc... However, there was a loud hum coming from the woofers. Funnily enough, it made a difference with the grounding switch in the isolated position even though it's not suppposed to. It was also contaminating the rest of my system with hum/buzzing. Just prior to the subs arrival there was no hum/buzz. If I connected the cables from my Anthem D1 to the subs, plugged in the subs and left them off then there was still buzzing/contamination to the rest of my system. If I unplugged all connections to the subs and plugged them into the wall there was humming from the subs. I tried different power cords, tried plugging into a PS Audio UPC200. I even tried floating the ground on the power cord - still hummed and buzzed.

Tried my main balanced cables (Transparent Music Link) which are quite expensive - still hummed. Tried connecting the subs to my Krell KRC-HR preamp directly with nothing else connected to it...guess what - still hummed :mad:

Finally tried a single-ended (RCA) cable and using the ground isolation position on the sub and it's finally to the point where it doesn't significantly contaminate the rest of the system and there is minimal humming when you put your ear up to the sub. I connected the second sub to the first as "slave" using balanced cable and that sub hums a bit more. I'll change it to single ended also when I get a chance to buy a longer cable.

Bottom line, I think there is a grounding problem with the sub. It's not a problem with the source...I have all balanced connections and was hoping to do so for the sub also. I don't have any issues when the sub is not in the system. Also, if the sub is on and I reach for the power switch there is a "thud" noise from the woofer when I just touch the power switch which implies some sort of grounding issues. JL Audio needs to work on this. They should also have put the locking type of xlr connector on the sub (I thought it was based on the pictures but apparently not) but that's not a big deal.

Most people will probably use RCA anyway and I guess it's no big deal if it works well that way.

Looking forward to tomorrow - the wife goes to work and I'm home to play a game of rock-a-bye-house-foundation :D

Tried to add the picture into my text but it looks like it's just an attachment. Forgive the picture quality.

The Bogg

TheBOGG,

Congrats,and do I see a Krell FPB600? I have one and I will not part with the FPB600 anytime soon.

And the center channel you have...woha,serious HT gear I see!

You have a large room from what I see,time to add two more(f113's). ;)

Hi all,

....
Unfortunately, all was not well. :( I had bought some cheapie long runs of balanced cables so that I could at least hear them until my basement was finished and then I'd get better cables etc... However, there was a loud hum coming from the woofers. Funnily enough, it made a difference with the grounding switch in the isolated position even though it's not suppposed to. It was also contaminating the rest of my system with hum/buzzing. Just prior to the subs arrival there was no hum/buzz. If I connected the cables from my Anthem D1 to the subs, plugged in the subs and left them off then there was still buzzing/contamination to the rest of my system. If I unplugged all connections to the subs and plugged them into the wall there was humming from the subs. I tried different power cords, tried plugging into a PS Audio UPC200. I even tried floating the ground on the power cord - still hummed and buzzed.

Tried my main balanced cables (Transparent Music Link) which are quite expensive - still hummed. Tried connecting the subs to my Krell KRC-HR preamp directly with nothing else connected to it...guess what - still hummed :mad:

Finally tried a single-ended (RCA) cable and using the ground isolation position on the sub and it's finally to the point where it doesn't significantly contaminate the rest of the system and there is minimal humming when you put your ear up to the sub. I connected the second sub to the first as "slave" using balanced cable and that sub hums a bit more. I'll change it to single ended also when I get a chance to buy a longer cable.

Bottom line, I think there is a grounding problem with the sub. It's not a problem with the source...I have all balanced connections and was hoping to do so for the sub also. I don't have any issues when the sub is not in the system. Also, if the sub is on and I reach for the power switch there is a "thud" noise from the woofer when I just touch the power switch which implies some sort of grounding issues. JL Audio needs to work on this. They should also have put the locking type of xlr connector on the sub (I thought it was based on the pictures but apparently not) but that's not a big deal.

Most people will probably use RCA anyway and I guess it's no big deal if it works well that way.

Looking forward to tomorrow - the wife goes to work and I'm home to play a game of rock-a-bye-house-foundation :D

Tried to add the picture into my text but it looks like it's just an attachment. Forgive the picture quality.

The Bogg

Hello Bogg. I have another solution for the buzz. I bet you are $59 away from removing the problem. :) See http://www.zzounds.com/item--EBTHUMX I think you can get them closer to $40 if you search hard.

I isolated a buzz relating to fluorescent lighting for a customer of mine (I'm a JL dealer here in MN). With the fluorescent lights off, there was no issue. If he used the RCA connection (again) no issue. My customer preferred not to lift the ground and wanted to use the balanced connection so he bought one of these Ebtech HumX wall units; no more buzz! :D

Over the years, I have heard various amps being more sensitive to dimmers and fluorescent lighting. Both dimmers and fluorescent lighting put a bunch of crap (interference) back on the AC line. :eek: There are some amps that also highlight interference issues more than others. I have heard "my so-and-so amp (fill in the blank) never did that before" a few hundred times over the years. In your case, spend the extra $50x2 or pull off the dimmers and or fluorescent lighting. For dimmers, try using one of these http://www.shop.com/op/~Lutron_MIR_600THW_WH_White_SP_Dimmer_Remote-prod-34542597-45104604?sourceid=3
I use the Lutrons with my JL F113 (soon to be twins) and it works perfectly without the noise of typical dimmers.

While I am at it, I might as well state that I simply LOVE the performance of the F113. It shakes the chest hairs effortlessly and it is one MUSICAL sub. I've had many many many (did I say many) subs in my home. I have heard musical subs that lack output. I have also heard musical subs that didn't go as deep as I demand (only 25 HZ). I have heard many subs with a lot of output but are not musical. The JLF113 sub goes very deep, throws a lot of air, is tight and musical and is very attractive (small foot print). The build quality is also amazing!!! JL didn't cut one corner. Kudos to the design team at JL for making my room sound better. I am absolutely proud to have this sub in my reference system. With the smaller footprint, I was able to talk the wife into going with two. I'm a week away from seeing if two makes much of a difference. My room is about 18x36 (8' ceilings) and opens up into other areas. It should be fun! :)
Sorry for the rant but I couldn't be happier. :D

Hi TheEAR,
yes it is an FPB600 - love it! The centre-channel is an ATC C6 - love it too! 2 more fathoms? hmmm...they are small and attractive, perhaps I can sneak them past the wife!

Steve,
thanks for your input. Not sure if that thing will work because the PS Audio UPC200 is supposed to get rid of ground loop noise also. Actually, I was just at the PS Audio site and it does NOT get rid of ground loop noise! However, I tried defeating the ground pin on the power cord temporarily and it also didn't work. From what I understand this should have worked, safety issues aside. There are no fluorescent lights or anything on the circuit. Well actually, there might be one but it wasn't turned on.
I'll just wait until the dedicated circuits get put in with the balanced power unit and see what happens then.
Your room is quite large...get the second fathom! I bought 2 mainly for smoother bass, I'm sure that even 1 wouldn't get pushed all that often, just mainly when friends are over and need to be "wowed".

Hi All,

I have just finished reading all the 34 pages in this thread and come to the conclusion that F113 is the new wonder sub for me, I believe the MSRP is $3200 I live in NJ and called a dealer and he would not reduce the price could some one PM me with street price and a dealer I can buy it from.

Thanks much for your help in advance
Kmenon

That looks like one serious HT sound system Bogg. :cool: One other thing worth checking is disconnecting the cable/satellite cable to see if the ground loop is coming from there. My brother had a similar problem with his subs which we finally eliminated with better grounding of that cable.

I don't even have cable or satellite hooked up right now. I took it down to the bare minimum...just the preamp going directly into the subs with NOTHING else hooked up. Just woke up, got a few more ideas. Time to play! :cool:

After re-reading a review of the PS Audio UPC200 I'm going to try a few more things because it should help with ground loop noise I think.

Bogg -

Your system is :eek:

I've only heard the small ATCs (active 10), but I loved them. I'm sure the larger ones are incredible.

Bogg, Have you checked the wiring/grounding of the power outlets in your walls and of your dimmers and lighting fixtures?

Manville,
I haven't checked that wiring. There is only 1 light on the circuit and I don't use it...it's in the furnace room. I have things working quite well with the RCA input until I get the dedicated circuits. I re-read my previous posts and now think I was a little harsh towards JL Audio - I didn't mean to be, just a little frustrated. I think that the dedicated circuits etc... will help because it will be set up with an isolated ground with no dimmers etc... on the circuit. Time will tell.
I have both subs the same distance from the back and side walls. The one on the right measures nearly flat at the listening position without any calibration etc... The one on the left rattles and shakes the wall with many more peaks. Even with ARO I couldn't get it better because on the low bass notes the walls and ducts are shaking so ARO probably thinks it needs to turn up the bass. When I measure it both before and after calibration there is a huge peak around 35hz or so. I played movies with just the right sub and it sounded good but it was still better with the other sub even though it wasn't quite as clean. Can't wait to redo the walls and ceiling so that there is less shake rattle and roll!

The manual mentions that the "slave" sub gets its ARO settings from the "master". Do you still have to put the level to "variable" and turn off the "defeat" button, or is that automatic? I noticed the defeat button was still red on the "slave". I tried calibrating just the left sub as "master" but still not a great result. It's just the way the room is.

Tim,
the ATC are nice. Very realistic vocals/atmospheric effects on movies. Uncompressed output too. Once I get the room done I'm considering moving up in the line to the big floorstanders!

The Bogg

No offense was taken, Bogg... I just want to get it resolved for you.

When a Fathom is placed in slave mode, all of its user controls are bypassed and defeated. The only signal processing left operating is the fixed eq and filtering that is not user adjustable. The level mode is essentially in unity gain with the Master's output level and cannot be adjusted independently... it will rise and fall with Master unit's level knob if the master is in "variable" level mode. The signal coming out of the Master sub's "Output to Slave" contains all the user-applied and ARO-applied signal processing that is selected and configured on the Master.

The Defeat button should be red on the Slave as the Slave unit's ARO is not functional, only the Master's. Our recommended calibration procedure is to configure one unit as a Master, the other as a slave and then perform ARO calibration on the master unit. This will run both subs during calibration and give optimal correction for their combined response at the measurement position. All user adjustments during calibration (level and ARO engagement) need to be done on the master unit only.

Hope that helps,

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.

TheBOGG,

Ok I have forgotten about JL when looking at your ATC center channel! This has the be THE center channel,you know the Krell FPB600 is a huge amp,and it looks small compared to your center,plus the RPTV looks small too! :eek:

Ok I am finished now ,will have to check this center and some ATC speakers now. :mad:

Speachless,talk about mighty.

I know ATC speakers are not cheap,in fact some of the most expensive ones made. May I ask the price of the center.


Thank you

I'd like to learn more about the EQ ability of the 113. How many bands is the EQ? Is it user adjustable? How does it compare to the EQ in the Velodyne DD series? Is there an onscreen display? How many locations, etc.

I went to the JL Audio site but there is little to no information.

Thanks,

-Brian

I'd like to learn more about the EQ ability of the 113. How many bands is the EQ? Is it user adjustable? How does it compare to the EQ in the Velodyne DD series? Is there an onscreen display? How many locations, etc.

I went to the JL Audio site but there is little to no information.

Thanks,

-Brian

It is not user adjustable like the Velo,and no on screen display. The Velo unit integrated in the DD series is the SMS,a more complex and complete unit.However the JL Audio aproach works great. Most of the time you will not need the added flexibility of the SMS.

It is not user adjustable like the Velo,and no on screen display. The Velo unit integrated in the DD series is the SMS,a more complex and complete unit.However the JL Audio aproach works great. Most of the time you will not need the added flexibility of the SMS.Agreed. The JL is a single-band PEQ but quite effective.

TheBOGG,

Ok I have forgotten about JL when looking at your ATC center channel! This has the be THE center channel,you know the Krell FPB600 is a huge amp,and it looks small compared to your center,plus the RPTV looks small too! :eek:

Ok I am finished now ,will have to check this center and some ATC speakers now. :mad:

Speachless,talk about mighty.

I know ATC speakers are not cheap,in fact some of the most expensive ones made. May I ask the price of the center.


Thank you

I've PMed you

OK sub maniacs what about the THIEL line up? Sorry, I know this is a JL thread...

How does the Theil processing compare to JL's ARO and Velo's SMS?

The top of the line combo will run over $13K !


Regards,
Mike

Thiel subwoofers as is the case with the speakers they make have first rate built quality and sound quality is also tops...read JL like.

Also the outboard controller/DSP and the matching crtossover combine what I would call superior to what JL has in the ARO. Again this is IMHO.

Where they lack(Thiel subs) is in output considering price. These are ideal music subs,as for HT you will be much better served by other brands(price/output ratio).

For HT you will be better served by JL Audio,Seaton Sound and company.

For anyone who owns Thiel speakers and mostly listens to music they are a first rate upgrade.

Thiel subwoofers as is the case with the speakers they make have first rate built quality and sound quality is also tops...read JL like.

Also the outboard controller/DSP and the matching crtossover combine what I would call superior to what JL has in the ARO. Again this is IMHO.

Where they lack(Thiel subs) is in output considering price. These are ideal music subs,as for HT you will be much better served by other brands(price/output ratio).

For HT you will be better served by JL Audio,Seaton Sound and company.

For anyone who owns Thiel speakers and mostly listens to music they are a first rate upgrade.
very well put ear.

Can anyone tell me the time it is taking right now to get a F112 that is ordered . I had my dealer order one a few weeks ago and we have not seen it yet.

Can anyone tell me the time it is taking right now to get a F112 that is ordered . I had my dealer order one a few weeks ago and we have not seen it yet.

I would ask Manville Smith. I know my dealer in Montreal got a few JL's and had no trouble getting them.Maybe since the sub recieved great press and this thread was intercepted much more demand = longer waiting.

I am looking to upgrade my Velo SPLR-1000 and have not yet heard the Fathom 113, are you guys saying it is as good as the DD15, Rel Britannia 1 or the ML Descent? I am interested in a sub that is equally suited for music as it is for HT.

Thanks,

Lou

It surpasses the performance of those three subs pretty easily. A better comaprison is the DD-18 but as some indepenent tests show, it (F113) even exceeds the capabilities of the biggest DD.

I am looking to upgrade my Velo SPLR-1000 and have not yet heard the Fathom 113, are you guys saying it is as good as the DD15, Rel Britannia 1 or the ML Descent? I am interested in a sub that is equally suited for music as it is for HT.

Thanks,

Lou

The Fathom F113 is well suited for HT and music. Your SPL-1000R is great for music but the Fathom will do this and give you top level performance for HT. As to how it compares to the DD-15, Rel and ML, I can only say that the Fathom's performance was comparable to the DD-18 in a much smaller and less expensive package.

Lou,

The f113 bests all the subs you listed in extension and output,plus is on the same level of sound quality as the DD15/18. Right now if I had to take two brands for quality it would be JL and Velodyne's DD series.

What is so impressive about the JL is the output on top of the quality,in a quite compact cabinet.Mind you it weighs more than most far larger competitors.

I was just playing around with the settings on my Anthem D1 and I realized that I had selected "boundary gain compensation" to "on". I turned it off and remeasured and the low bass was off the chart! It measured much more flat with the bgc turned on so I left it there and adjusted the parametric eq in the Anthem for flattest response as there was a large peak around 35hz. I may try the ARO again with the bgc turned off at some point. I'm very impressed with the quality and quantity of bass from the pair of F113s in my room.

John (Jakeman), check your email...

Any comparison with the B4+ to this JL sub? (113)

The B4 would have more output, than a single F113, but the F113 would have a smaller footprint and better sound quality than the B4. Now two F113's against a B4, the F113's win hands down in sound quality and output. A B4 cost 3849.000 and a F113 3,300.00.

Lou,

The f113 bests all the subs you listed in extension and output,plus is on the same level of sound quality as the DD15/18. Right now if I had to take two brands for quality it would be JL and Velodyne's DD series.

What is so impressive about the JL is the output on top of the quality,in a quite compact cabinet.Mind you it weighs more than most far larger competitors.


Thanks EAR,

I Have to get a demo, love the idea of the small footprint, which led me to the SPLR.

The B4 would have more output, than a single F113, but the F113 would have a smaller footprint and better sound quality than the B4. Now two F113's against a B4, the F113's win hands down in sound quality and output. A B4 cost 3849.000 and a F113 3,300.00.


Exactly,the big SVS B4 is a monster of output,using four dB12 woofers in a vented enclosure. At this level of expense I would rather pay more and get dual f113's...better sound quality and acoustic correction.

Dual f113's are refined powerhouses VS a brute in the B4 make your pick. In the high end I think most will agree(unless they are in this hobby just for show) that quality gets first prize over quantity. And there is not much difference in quantity from the B4 to dual f113's. :)

How about the Sub-1 from Mark Seaton how do you think it will compare to the F113. Does anybody know if Craigsub has a Sub-1 yet.
Allen

How about the Sub-1 from Mark Seaton how do you think it will compare to the F113. Does anybody know if Craigsub has a Sub-1 yet.
Allen

Allen - I think you mean the SUBmersive from Mark Seaton ? Hopefully we will be getting one when production picks up for Mark.

Then there is the BMF from AV123, which Mark designed - it is also slated to arrive here once production begins.

Two companies have also contacted me privately about different sealed 18 inch subs which are on the drawing boards, and which are geared towards the higher end.

For now, the next month looks like a month of testing various $400 to $700 subs - The SVS PB10, PB12-NSD, and the Hsu VTF-2 Mark III and VTF-3 Mark III.

Allen - I think you mean the SUBmersive from Mark Seaton ? Hopefully we will be getting one when production picks up for Mark.

Then there is the BMF from AV123, which Mark designed - it is also slated to arrive here once production begins.

Two companies have also contacted me privately about different sealed 18 inch subs which are on the drawing boards, and which are geared towards the higher end.

For now, the next month looks like a month of testing various $400 to $700 subs - The SVS PB10, PB12-NSD, and the Hsu VTF-2 Mark III and VTF-3 Mark III.


Thanks Craig cann't wait to hear your thoughts on the Submersive compared to the F-113. IMHO The Submersive should out put with the 113 maybe beat it but will it have the quailty of the 113. This should be good.
Allen

I was just playing around with the settings on my Anthem D1 and I realized that I had selected "boundary gain compensation" to "on". I turned it off and remeasured and the low bass was off the chart! It measured much more flat with the bgc turned on so I left it there and adjusted the parametric eq in the Anthem for flattest response as there was a large peak around 35hz. I may try the ARO again with the bgc turned off at some point. I'm very impressed with the quality and quantity of bass from the pair of F113s in my room.

John (Jakeman), check your email...

Hi Asher

Sounds like you are still in setup mode. I'm free tomorrow or Tuesday then its off to Whistler for some powder skiing with the wife and kids until late Sunday so anytime after then. Looking forward to it. ;)

How about the Sub-1 from Mark Seaton how do you think it will compare to the F113. Does anybody know if Craigsub has a Sub-1 yet.
Allen

The Seaton offerings (Submersive and BMF) will be interesting comparisons with the F113. I myself will be interested in hearing about how these subwoofers compare, since I am in the market for a new subwoofer.

Thiel subwoofers as is the case with the speakers they make have first rate built quality and sound quality is also tops...read JL like.

Also the outboard controller/DSP and the matching crtossover combine what I would call superior to what JL has in the ARO. Again this is IMHO.

Where they lack(Thiel subs) is in output considering price. These are ideal music subs,as for HT you will be much better served by other brands(price/output ratio).

For HT you will be better served by JL Audio,Seaton Sound and company.

For anyone who owns Thiel speakers and mostly listens to music they are a first rate upgrade.

I agree with most of the comments above by the EAR, but I wanted to mention that the Thiel subs do a wonderful job with HT as well as music in a small to moderate size room at any reasonable volume level. My Thiel SS1 handles movie soundtracks, dialogue, environmental sounds, and, yes, even explosions with great naturalness and total lack of subwoofer boom and bloat. I also listen to a lot of concert DVDs (as well as to broadcast concerts on HD cable channels), and the Thiels provide fantastic performance with these sources as well. The only area where the competition has an advantage is in price-to-output ratio -- as The EAR accurately points out.

To keep clearly on topic, the 13" Fathom appears to be a great sub, and I hope to be able to listen to it on both music and HT content sometime soon. It has many of the design characteristics and build quality attributes that pulled me toward the Thiels in the first place. If I were in the market for a new sub today (and I'm not!) and if I did not already have Thiel speakers for the rest of my HT system, the Fathom would be at the top of my list for consideration. However, to provide a perfect sub-sat blend with my Powerpoints, I'd still have trouble giving up the Thiel system with the custom crossover and boundary compensation features it provides.

There's another thread on this forum focused on why you have to actually use your ears to listen to subs rather than relying on frequency response and SPL measurements alone to choose a sub. I agree strongly with that conclusion! And I also would argue that choosing a sub that sounds natural on music is crucial even if you plan to use the sub mainly for watching movies. If you don't believe me, just compare the time allotted in most movies to soundtracks vs. explosions. Now with subs like the Fathom (and IMO the Thiels), it's possible to reproduce beautiful music as well as the dramatic movie effects that make HT so much fun.

SDL

Thanks for the replies about the B4+ guys. Remember also that the sub alone was 2400...adding the amp (depending upon which one you choose) may still get you under 3k. I have a huge room, and usually do not listen to music with a sub (mainly 2 channel) so HT would be the primary use for it. I'm feeling staying with the B4 is probably best being I haven't seen the B4+ sweat once...:) I may test a f113 just for kicks though:)

It is not user adjustable like the Velo,and no on screen display. The Velo unit integrated in the DD series is the SMS,a more complex and complete unit.However the JL Audio aproach works great. Most of the time you will not need the added flexibility of the SMS.
So would you say the ARO is easier to use for the less technically inclined user (like me)?

So would you say the ARO is easier to use for the less technically inclined user (like me)?


Both are easy to use IMO.

The ARO,you connect the mic,place it where you sit(at ear level)start the sequence...reading the short step by step in the JL manual helps.

No mess no fuss just an easy setup and great sound.

Yes the ARO is easy to us, very easy. I think it makes a big difference.

Thanks guys, I just found out there's a small HT shop here in town that carries the JL Fathoms. I'll see if I can check them out Thursday.

Thanks for the replies about the B4+ guys. Remember also that the sub alone was 2400...adding the amp (depending upon which one you choose) may still get you under 3k. I have a huge room, and usually do not listen to music with a sub (mainly 2 channel) so HT would be the primary use for it. I'm feeling staying with the B4 is probably best being I haven't seen the B4+ sweat once...:) I may test a f113 just for kicks though:)

Hi Tom,
I can drag up a F113 to Duluth to do an A-B comparison with your SVS in your home. Let's get some more snow so i can time it with a ski trip to Spirit Mountain. ;)
That being said, the B4+ will have more output. In your situation, it won't matter. The F113 will have 3X more than your room will need while the B4+ will have 5X more than you need. The F113 is tight, dynamic, goes deep, and is musical.
The only way to know for sure how it sounds is in your own room.:)

Damnit Steve:) Yeah, I guess that scenario will probably come too:) Anyone need a babied B4+ in a light oak color...:)

Does anyone know the recommended ARO procedure for two Fathoms (Master/Slave)?

Connect the subs as shown on page 23 of the manual in Master/Slave configuration (http://home.jlaudio.com/pdfs/10456.pdf). Turn on both subwoofers and apply the ARO calibration routine on the Master subwoofer only. Both units will play during calibration and the ARO will take into account the combined performance of both units.

Connect the subs as shown on page 23 of the manual in Master/Slave configuration (http://home.jlaudio.com/pdfs/10456.pdf). Turn on both subwoofers and apply the ARO calibration routine on the Master subwoofer only. Both units will play during calibration and the ARO will take into account the combined performance of both units.

Thanks Manville, would subs (F113's) at each end of a couch (say 7' apart) be considered co-located?

No, RMK... only if they were stacked on each other or placed side-by-side would they be co-located.

Thanks Manville, would subs (F113's) at each end of a couch (say 7' apart) be considered co-located?I believe both Mark and Ed have said for subs to be considered as co-located, they have to be within 2 or 3 feet of each other. Otherwise there is too much of a gap in the produced sound waves for reinforcement.

I have called every dealer listed on the JL Audio website within 50 miles of Manhattan, NY and none of them carry the fathom anymore, leave alone the fathom f113.

Anybody recommend a dealer that I can go buy over the phone. And since I am buying over the phone, prefer the dealer to be outside NY (to save on taxes).

Drop me an e-mail with the particulars and I will try to find out what happened. Email me at msmith@(my company name).com

Thanks.

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.

Connect the subs as shown on page 23 of the manual in Master/Slave configuration (http://home.jlaudio.com/pdfs/10456.pdf). Turn on both subwoofers and apply the ARO calibration routine on the Master subwoofer only. Both units will play during calibration and the ARO will take into account the combined performance of both units.

That's a nice little feature for us stereo sub fans!

That's a nice little feature for us stereo sub fans!Nope. Daisy-chaining means both subs get the same signals. No stereo sub in that case.

After twiddling around with the settings I thought I'd post a few more comments. I've got a little "dip" programmed in with my Anthem D1 and have a little "cut" on the ELF on the F113s and it measures well at the listening position with just a gentle rise at the lowest frequencies (if I do no processing then there is a monstrous rise at the lowest frequencies i.e. 40hz and under).

I put on The Incredibles dvd and in the scene where Mr. Incredible tosses the cablecar which lands with an enormous "thud" I could have sworn it landed right in front of me! What an experience! I was giggling like a fool!

There's still some fine tuning to do. John (Jakeman) found it a little lean for his tastes but I prefer it just a little lean to a little bloated. It depends on the movie but I'm continuing to search for one ideal setting. Make no mistake, these things can move air!!!

I haven't had the time yet to integrate it with my 2 channel setup but even in an unoptimized setup it sounds pretty good with music. It is "fast" and smooth with the pair engaged. Haven't tried them yet as stereo subs.

Bogg out

Nope. Daisy-chaining means both subs get the same signals. No stereo sub in that case.

Guess I should have actually read the link he posted :D

Still it does show attention to detail on the manufacturer's part which is always a good thing.

AJay Audio den in Fairfield, Ct had the 113 in stock when I was there 2 weeks ago.

After twiddling around with the settings I thought I'd post a few more comments. I've got a little "dip" programmed in with my Anthem D1 and have a little "cut" on the ELF on the F113s and it measures well at the listening position with just a gentle rise at the lowest frequencies (if I do no processing then there is a monstrous rise at the lowest frequencies i.e. 40hz and under).

I put on The Incredibles dvd and in the scene where Mr. Incredible tosses the cablecar which lands with an enormous "thud" I could have sworn it landed right in front of me! What an experience! I was giggling like a fool!

There's still some fine tuning to do. John (Jakeman) found it a little lean for his tastes but I prefer it just a little lean to a little bloated. It depends on the movie but I'm continuing to search for one ideal setting. Make no mistake, these things can move air!!!

I haven't had the time yet to integrate it with my 2 channel setup but even in an unoptimized setup it sounds pretty good with music. It is "fast" and smooth with the pair engaged. Haven't tried them yet as stereo subs.

Bogg out

Ha,these JL subs made listening to music a pleasure reserved for a well set up Velo DD sub,and this with no ARO.

Firs time I got my f113's ,positioned ...phase set,cutoff set...gain set. PLAY Ah the joy,ah the quality. Matches to perfection where it took me some work even using my Aerial!

As stereo use goes,dual f113's one for each channel,with Dynaudio Contour S5.4's,superb. Again I did not even use ARO to tame any peaks!

Yes the ARO is great and dual F113's is the best upgrade I have ever made to my system, hands down!!! I have added expensive amps, pre/pro's, power conditioners, speakers, wire/connnections, not to mention numerous different subwoofers I have owned, you name it I have probably done it.

I talked to a dealer today who carries both the JL Audio Fathoms and the Definitive Technology Trinity. His opinion was that the Fathom was tighter and more musical, but that the Trinity would hit a little harder for home theater. Has anyone here heard both and have an opinion? They seem to be about the same price.

I talked to a dealer today who carries both the JL Audio Fathoms and the Definitive Technology Trinity. His opinion was that the Fathom was tighter and more musical, but that the Trinity would hit a little harder for home theater. Has anyone here heard both and have an opinion? They seem to be about the same price.

Without even having heard the Trinity I can tell you the following.

A top of the line sealed sub like the Fathom is ALWAYS(ALWAYS) sound better than ANY ported sub(no matter how well designed).As any port be it the classic port or a PR will add its signature.

This said your dealer is stating the obvious the Fathom is a better sound quality sub,the Trinity will shake N bake more.A more impressive HT sub,the amount of air moved by the twin active woofers and the PR's will be greater than a f113 can move witha single ...sealed driver.

This is very probably the only strong point in favor of the Trinity. The f113 is a better quality sub,anyone with a taste for higher sound quality can confirm this.


A bit OT ...I challenge anyone to find me a better sounding ported sub (compared to the f113) ;)

So if my usage is primarily for movies/home theater, would it be better to get the Trinity?

I realize the Fathom is a better quality/sounding sub, but I'm not an audiophile, just an enthusiast. I don't really critically listen to music.

So if my usage is primarily for movies/home theater, would it be better to get the Trinity?

I realize the Fathom is a better quality/sounding sub, but I'm not an audiophile, just an enthusiast. I don't really critically listen to music.

In all honesty,probably. To make sure you would have to hear each one.

As one f113 has major output,and the gain in headroom with the Trinity may not be obvious. You have to hear them both and use some demo material you know.

No matter what campo you take now,you will have a serious HT sub.

Thanks for the help. The dealer that has both is about an hour away, so I'll have to make it an afternoon. Just wanted to get as much info as possible before setting out.

My favorite demo scenes are Irene from Black Hawk Down and the
"OK to go!" scene from Contact.

One last thought, where would the Velodyne DD-18 fit in with these 2? I don't think there are any dealers around here that carry all 3.

Thanks for the help. The dealer that has both is about an hour away, so I'll have to make it an afternoon. Just wanted to get as much info as possible before setting out.

My favorite demo scenes are Irene from Black Hawk Down and the
"OK to go!" scene from Contact.

One last thought, where would the Velodyne DD-18 fit in with these 2? I don't think there are any dealers around here that carry all 3.

The DD18 is on par in terms of sound quality,it has less output down deep compared with the f113.

The DD18 is on par in terms of sound quality,it has less output down deep compared with the f113.

I agree with that statement but I found that a single DD-18 provided a bit more palpable bass within its frequency range vs the F113. They are both excellent subwoofers and from a performance standpoint there was no clear winner. When physical size and price are considered, the Fathom is very tough competition for the DD-18.

When I visited The Bogg's lovely home last Tuesday I had no preconceived notions of what to expect despite having read both JL threads, reviewed the site, and read the manual. All subs have strengths and weaknesses and I was looking to find them with Bogg's f113s in the 2.5 hours we had set aside.

One of the first things I do when I walk into someone's HT is take a close look at the room which is by far the most important influence on bass sound. Bogg had warned me that his space was a work in progress. The current room contains approximately 6000 cu ft of irregular space opening to a staircase with ceilings varying from 7 to 8 ft .. .a difficult room acoustically. Balancing that I was pleased to see that Asher had located the subs directly behind his ATC 50s mains and equidistant to his ATC C6 centre , a location I am increasingly fond of because of the greater ease with getting phase right with between the sub pair, mains and centre.

If aesthetics are important then these subs are right up there. Gloss black looks stunning on these subs. The fit and finish is as good as I've seen on any sub and I can understand why these moderately sized subs would have a high WAF. The driver with its large flange looks uber cool based on its car audio heritage. I agreed with Asher that these subs look best with the grills off. I especially liked the front controls. Maybe I'm just getting older but I'm getting annoyed with doing contortions when calibrating subs. Why more designers don't put controls within easy reach up front is one of life's mysteries. After finishing my inspection, I was quietly amused when the Bogg immediately wiped my fingerprints from the top of the enclosure and somewhat relieved that he didn't put on one of his surgeon masks to complete the task. :p

While it was only 20 ft from the Anthem D1 to the subs, I was concerned that The Bogg had to use the unbalanced connections to avoid hum. Ground loops are the curse of many an HT system but as I examined the connections and questioned Bogg I concluded he had done all he could have from a troubleshooting perspective. The hum appeared only when he connected the f113s balanced and he has not been able to eliminate it. No hum was apparent with the unbalanced RCA inputs. An odd situation since most hum I've seen has been on the unbalanced not the balanced connection. I noted that several posters had also reported a similar problem. That bothers me about this sub.

With the inspection part out of the way I wanted to take a quick look at the F113s frequency response without any processing or equalization in light of the room acoustics. I had brought my SMS-1 but had left the remote behind so we used Bogg's Accuphase DG-28 equalizer which has a small display. We positioned a mic 8" from the centre of the JL woofer and ran some sweeps. The results were impressive. FR looked reasonably linear from 20-100hz. We then ran the same sweeps at the listening postion and saw the usual rollercoaster curve with a high peak around 25hz, a nasty null near 60hz, and a lesser peak around 85hz. I made a mental note of the null.

The ARO function did a good job of eliminating the peak at 25hz. The ARO looks like a capable single shot equalizer but it is no substitute for an SMS-1, Velo's built in DD solution or another competent equalizer like a the Behringher 2496 or Bogg's Accuphase. I'm not a big fan of auto equalization because most rooms need more unique settings but I can see how many people would like the ease of use and simplicity. The JL manual talks about the need for only a single shot at the peak but that would only work in a near perfect room with a sub at the best sweet spot. Most applications especially those in difficult rooms require more unique treatment and therefor a more versatile approach. On the other hand I was glad to see the ELF trim available centred at 25hz which is always a good tool to see on a sub. While the auto one shot is a nice feature, I'm coming from a pair of EP600s with DSP controlled FR with and trim on board at 33hz and an Ultra with a user controlled single shot parametric equalizer so I don't regard these features as anything special, and certainly not better than the Velo solution.

So how did it sound. For HT we used various scenes from WOTW and for me it was a mixed bag. Bogg likes to set his pair level with the speakers as do I though I sometimes raise it 2-3db hot. The alien emerges out of the pavement scene is one continuous rumble and while the sound was more detailed I found it lacking somewhat in output compared to my big vented subs. Ditto with the lightning strikes scene. Where I heard a pleasant difference with new nuances was the scene where the alien is blasting rays at running civilians. The ray blasts were more visceral, cleaner and short lived...in a word more realistic.

We moved on to music tracks which really is the best way to judge sound quality. We opened with Soundhound Disc #2 track 4, Aria which I suggested we start low at -15 as I have seen some subs have difficulty reproducing this unfiltered deep organ track. With the opening notes I heard right away how clean and true this sub can reproduce music. The presentation was simply outstanding in every way. Deep, detailed, articulate with just the right amount of decay and attack. No doubt this is one exceptionally musical subwoofer and there is no way any current sub with a vent can sound this good. I enjoy listening to soundtracks and music louder than most and Bogg let me replay the track at -10. By this point I have to say it was the finest reproduction of the Aria I have heard. The JL was playing back those big pipes with authority and very little distortion. I was curious to find the limit and Bogg must have been too as he obliged my request to up the volume. Knowing what this track could do I didn't want to push it even with powerful subs so I increased the Anthem to -1.5. Talk about being there! It felt like we were in the cathedral. There is something unnerving about watching a big driver visibly cycle at near max excursion and Bogg looked concerned so I didn't suggest we push it any further. There was alot of air moving but with less clarity on the deepest notes towards the end of the track. That's OK and to be expected. Based on that experience I would submit that this is one of best sounding subs I have ever heard..

We next played Mino Cinelu's Moun Madinina, an African musical track full of very deep bass guitar and percussion. Again a beautiful, presentation faithfully reproduced with suberb attack and decay. I've heard this track on various subs as well and the reproduction was similar to the DD-15s. Not having the Velo in the room I could not say whether it was any better. It was also like a pair of Paradigm Servo v2s on steroids with very deep, detailed, transient response. I was a bit surprised that the next track Holly Cole's "I Can See Clearly" sounded a bit thin. I've heard this song many times and it was a group reference at Craigsub's GTG in late 2005. That's when I recalled the 60hz null and as I moved six feet over the acoustic bass became full and prominent. Janos Starkers viola on a Bach Fugue was finely reproduced with the interaction between the JL113s and Boggs excellent ATCs being shown to great effect. Asher then served up a fine jazz track with very clear distinct bass guitar.

Needless to say the JL113 is a very serious contender for those contemplating using a sub for music applications especially for anyone with higher end audiophile type gear. I've always been an advocate of using only full range floorstanders for music but my postion has been reevalutated after hearing how well this sub sounds with music. However this sub cannot be all things to all people though it does come close. For those looking at 100% HT applications multiple vented subs with higher output would be a fine choice. For those willing to forgo some output for superior sound quality you must listen to these JL subs. Matching a pair of these with an SMS-1 would be one of the best solutions on the market today.

I agree with that statement but I found that a single DD-18 provided a bit more palpable bass within its frequency range vs the F113. They are both excellent subwoofers and from a performance standpoint there was no clear winner. When physical size and price are considered, the Fathom is very tough competition for the DD-18.

Price and size not even being a consideration it is direct competition. The Velo will have bigger punch in its upper registers,where cone travel is a lot lesser.This what gave you that impression IMO.

Take a JL f113 with the Hsu MBM (well integrated) and then compare with the DD18,both cut at a highish...80Hz. In this case the f113 reaching 50Hz and the MBM doing the ...50-80Hz work.

I know from experience the HGS/DD series when pushed will have a more proeminent 50-80Hz output as the rolloff kicks in. The Fathom behaves so dam well under even...near max output,as with the large ported SVS will apear to have less punch.

. After finishing my inspection, I was quietly amused when the Bogg immediately wiped my fingerprints from the top of the enclosure and somewhat relieved that he didn't put on one of his surgeon masks to complete the task. :p

I put on the mask after you left to "sterilize" the woofer cabinet :p Just kidding, but I was a bit surprised when you started moving around the cabinet with bare mitts. Just like my Pioneer RPTV with it's gloss black finish, it's very visible when there are fingerprints etc... Any JL Fathom owners need to keep a fly swatter handy to swat at the hands of any visitors that want to play with the subs! ;)

So how did it sound. For HT we used various scenes from WOTW and for me it was a mixed bag. Bogg likes to set his pair level with the speakers as do I though I sometimes raise it 2-3db hot. The alien emerges out of the pavement scene is one continuous rumble and while the sound was more detailed I found it lacking somewhat in output compared to my big vented subs. Ditto with the lightning strikes scene. Where I heard a pleasant difference with new nuances was the scene where the alien is blasting rays at running civilians. The ray blasts were more visceral, cleaner and short lived...in a word more realistic.

Don't forget I had the ELF trim down 8db as well as my programmed dip. Before I did that the whole room was doing the shake, rattle, and roll! Trust me, these things were being restrained in my quest for neutrality. I'm still doing the fine tuning as I prefer slightly lean to slightly bloated anytime. Besides, we were listening at -10db (below reference). I listened to it alone at about -6db.

I just don't want anyone to think that they might want more output than a pair of these can provide...not likely! That's not me being a fanboy cause I couldn't care less what anyone else buys, just want people to understand that these things will wallop out monstrous bass if you dial it in that way.

We moved on to music tracks which really is the best way to judge sound quality. We opened with Soundhound Disc #2 track 4, Aria which I suggested we start low at -15 as I have seen some subs have difficulty reproducing this unfiltered deep organ track. With the opening notes I heard right away how clean and true this sub can reproduce music. The presentation was simply outstanding in every way. Deep, detailed, articulate with just the right amount of decay and attack. No doubt this is one exceptionally musical subwoofer and there is no way any current sub with a vent can sound this good. I enjoy listening to soundtracks and music louder than most and Bogg let me replay the track at -10. By this point I have to say it was the finest reproduction of the Aria I have heard. The JL was playing back those big pipes with authority and very little distortion. I was curious to find the limit and Bogg must have been too as he obliged my request to up the volume. Knowing what this track could do I didn't want to push it even with powerful subs so I increased the Anthem to -1.5. Talk about being there! It felt like we were in the cathedral. There is something unnerving about watching a big driver visibly cycle at near max excursion and Bogg looked concerned so I didn't suggest we push it any further. There was alot of air moving but with less clarity on the deepest notes towards the end of the track. That's OK and to be expected. Based on that experience I would submit that this is one of best sounding subs I have ever heard..

I wasn't that concerned about the woofers cause I'd made them move more with my own demo testing. I was just concerned we might trip the breaker. I have everything including a monster Krell amp on one piddly 15amp circuit until I do my renos.

I was a bit surprised that the next track Holly Cole's "I Can See Clearly" sounded a bit thin. I've heard this song many times and it was a group reference at Craigsub's GTG in late 2005. That's when I recalled the 60hz null and as I moved six feet over the acoustic bass became full and prominent.
Doesn't matter how good the equipment is, the laws of physics are immutable...spend some money on the room as well as the gear!

For those looking at 100% HT applications multiple vented subs with higher output would be a fine choice. For those willing to forgo some output for superior sound quality you must listen to these JL subs. Matching a pair of these with an SMS-1 would be one of the best solutions on the market today.

I don't think you have to forego any output with a pair of these subs. If you had indicated you wanted a bit more "sizzle" I would have happily taken off my programmed dips to suit it. When my brother-in-law and I first set up the subs with the WOTW scene we could literally feel our pants flapping from the bass.

Gotta go play with them some more! :cool:

The Bogg

You Canadians get to have all the fun. Must be compensation for the horrible weather :p . Seriously, nice write-up and response gentlemen.

Dual Fathoms ... Hummm.

I put on the mask after you left to "sterilize" the woofer cabinet :p Just kidding, but I was a bit surprised when you started moving around the cabinet with bare mitts. Just like my Pioneer RPTV with it's gloss black finish, it's very visible when there are fingerprints etc... Any JL Fathom owners need to keep a fly swatter handy to swat at the hands of any visitors that want to play with the subs! ;)



Don't forget I had the ELF trim down 8db as well as my programmed dip. Before I did that the whole room was doing the shake, rattle, and roll! Trust me, these things were being restrained in my quest for neutrality. I'm still doing the fine tuning as I prefer slightly lean to slightly bloated anytime. Besides, we were listening at -10db (below reference). I listened to it alone at about -6db.

I just don't want anyone to think that they might want more output than a pair of these can provide...not likely! That's not me being a fanboy cause I couldn't care less what anyone else buys, just want people to understand that these things will wallop out monstrous bass if you dial it in that way.



I wasn't that concerned about the woofers cause I'd made them move more with my own demo testing. I was just concerned we might trip the breaker. I have everything including a monster Krell amp on one piddly 15amp circuit until I do my renos.


Doesn't matter how good the equipment is, the laws of physics are immutable...spend some money on the room as well as the gear!



I don't think you have to forego any output with a pair of these subs. If you had indicated you wanted a bit more "sizzle" I would have happily taken off my programmed dips to suit it. When my brother-in-law and I first set up the subs with the WOTW scene we could literally feel our pants flapping from the bass.

Gotta go play with them some more! :cool:

The Bogg

Asher. When I was discussing output it was to address the fact that too many people regard SPL as the main differentiater of a quality sub, a myth perpetuated by certain manufacturers of vented subs. The JL113 has prodigious output for its size oweing to the its phenomenal amp-driver combo but it is still a sealed design. While its no contest with music their are high quality higher output ported subs that will punch and slam harder but the sound quality suffers with virtually all those higher output alignments. Its been the subject of several passionate threads at this forum. When considering both quality and output the JLs have few equals IMO.

But for the output is everything crowd who are less concerned about sound quality and are looking at HT only for explosions and such there are good alternatives.

Nice write up John. It sounds like you came to many of the same conclusions as I did when I compared Rob's (RMK!) DD18 and the F113 (link (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=770381)). I was surprised you used the same material as we did, but if I recall, Rob go the Mino CD from you. We only played the Moun Madinina track. There was a short burst of deep bass that made the Velo flutter, probably synthesized as I don't think there is any natural bass guitar that can cause the DD18 a problem.

I found them both to be a little thin on WOTW and U-571, but that could have just been Rob's set up.

I am one of those 'SPL is everything' types as I only use mine for HT. I too find my big ported sub gives me a more satisfying tactile impact than the DD18 or the F113, but again, that's probably from differences in settings.

I don't know if I'm really an SPL is everything person, but what about just being able to dig the deepest/lowest for movies, like the low rumble from WOTW? Would a ported/vented sub like the DT Trinity be able to get lower for something like that?

I saw someone mention in a Black Hawk Down thread that the chopper blades were down in the 5-7Hz range and that the sealed subs would do a better job of getting down that low than a ported/PR sub? Is that true?

Given that the Irene scene from BHD is my favorite demo, I'd love to be able to get that 5-7Hz!

I saw someone mention in a Black Hawk Down thread that the chopper blades were down in the 5-7Hz range and that the sealed subs would do a better job of getting down that low than a ported/PR sub? Is that true?

Given that the Irene scene from BHD is my favorite demo, I'd love to be able to get that 5-7Hz!The issue with ported subs has to do with the tuning point. With less power, they can go deep/deeper than sealed, but they roll off steeply below the tuning point. Sealed subs need a lot of power to get the excursion they need for the low freqs, but they roll of at a more gentle slope than ported ones. Either way, 5 Hz is a tough nut to crack.

I saw someone mention in a Black Hawk Down thread that the chopper blades were down in the 5-7Hz range and that the sealed subs would do a better job of getting down that low than a ported/PR sub? Is that true?

Given that the Irene scene from BHD is my favorite demo, I'd love to be able to get that 5-7Hz!

Hsu MBM (50-80hz)
JL Fathom 13 (20-50hz)
Thigpen Rotary Sub (DC-20hz)

The ultimate bass system? :eek:

JP

The issue with ported subs has to do with the tuning point. With less power, they can go deep/deeper than sealed, but they roll off steeply below the tuning point. Sealed subs need a lot of power to get the excursion they need for the low freqs, but they roll of at a more gentle slope than ported ones. Either way, 5 Hz is a tough nut to crack.
I'm not sure I understand the tuning point stuff. Which do you think could get closer, the Trinity or the f113?

I'm sure the correct answer is the Gotham, right:D

I doubt either one will give you useful levels below 10-12Hz. As zora posted, the Thigpen will, but at $12k. I don't need to hear 5 Hz maybe twice a year for that price.

I currently own a SVS PB12-Ultra/2 in a room 20 X 35 feet. I am considering selling my SVS and getting a DD-18 or JL 113.

Do you think I would notice a difference as far as sound quality is concerned? What about total SPL output? I can't decide for the life of me wither to keep the SVS or upgrade.

Has anyone owned an SVS and can offer an opinion? Generally speaking how much more low bass output does a JL113 have over the DD-18? I love the fact that the DD-18 has a very sophisticated limiter.

Thanks,

-Brian

I doubt either one will give you useful levels below 10-12Hz. As zora posted, the Thigpen will, but at $12k. I don't need to hear 5 Hz maybe twice a year for that price.
I understand, but which do you think can go lower?

If you look at the specs, the Trinity should best the Fathom. More cone plus the PRs. Almost as powerful an amp 2000/2500. JL doesn't have the FR published. The Def states 10-200 but not the +- spec. They also don't state the tuning point of the PRs. One issue that keeps coming up with Def is their published specs. I am only paraphrasing here as I don't know, but many have said that Defs low end is not a usable low end, only that the driver responds at that freq. So it may move some air at 10 Hz, but not enough for you to hear or feel. They also state a 2000 Watt amp, but don't state if that is continuous or peak. I would bet it is peak. You may have to wait for independent testing to find out if it lives up to its claims.

This may also be true with the Fathom as they don't post FR.

Maybe someone knows of any performance measurements made on either of these subs that will show true FR.

Even if the Def Tech can hit 2db more at 1-2hz deeper, you will most likely never notice the difference. Surely not enought to give up everythng else the JL does better.

I'm not sure I understand the tuning point stuff. Which do you think could get closer, the Trinity or the f113?

I'm sure the correct answer is the Gotham, right:D

The ports are nothing more than a tube that will be excited at a certain FR. If you lengthen the tube, reduce the cross section, or increase the size of the box, you lower the tuning point. I don't understand the reduced point when you reduce the cross section, but that is what happens when you block a port.

Ported subs usually have a lower rated amp than a sealed sub. Above the tuning point, they have enough excursion and power to carry the load. As they approach the tuning point, they can't maintain the excursion needed to produce usable SPL. This is where the port gets excited and aids the driver. Below the tuning point, the port stops aiding and the driver/amp just don't have anything left to give. So they go quiet very quickly at this point.

Have you ever seen the Blue Man Group play their PVC instruments? Pounding on the end of the tube is similar to how a ported sub works. When the sound wave inside the box is at the resonant frequency of the tube, the tube starts to amplify the sound. Above or below that frequency, the port is mostly inactive.

PRs work in a similar way. The PR is a weighted and balanced driver without a motor. When you approach the tuning point of the PR, it starts to oscillate. the oscillation moves air, aiding the active driver. Above and below the tuning point, the PR doesn't move much.

BTW the ARO function was bypassed when John (Jakeman) was over. I just had some "cut" on the ELF trim as well as a "dip" programmed into my Anthem D1 around 35hz.

I bought the Fathoms mainly for home theater. I'm still a believer in the full-range main speaker for my 2 channel listening, although I will try my ATC 50s with the sub when I get around to it. That being said, I don't know of any sub that puts out more output for anywhere near the size/price and that's why I bought them (and I could have bought almost any sub out there). Yeah, the Genelec HTS6 is powerful but it's also huge. The large SVS is, well, large! Same with the Definitive Tech Trinity. If you can find more output for less money then there will probably be some type of tradeoff. Sounds like some people like a little more tactile feel and that is easy to dial in. I don't actually know of any sub that has uniformly more output than this one in a cosmetically acceptable package with the same quality (Geez, I'm beginning to sound like TheEAR!!!! :eek: )

I hope no-one makes a buying decision on my or Jakeman's "mini-review" because it's still being done in an "unfinished" basement. Plus it's obvious Jakeman and I have slightly different tastes as I thought some of the bass on the music tracks was overdone (we were running the subs without any processing for some of the time). Go listen to them for yourself if you get a chance if you are seriously considering them, or just buy them...

Someone on another thread made a good point about the settings that people prefer on their subs are their own and don't necessarily say anything about the subs in question. That is so true. I've made my biases clear in that I prefer quality to quantity if I have to trade one off. I don't believe you have to make the trade with a PAIR of these Fathoms. I also have a B&W ASW4000 sub which is a large-box vented 15incher which is fabulous for home theatre. It was reviewed favourably and has huge output down to 25hz with pretty good output at 20hz. I haven't tried it in the same spot as the Fathoms in my new house but, as expected, a pair of the Fathoms is in a totally different league in terms of output and quality based on the B&W in my old place as well as in my current house (but in a different location within the room). I used to believe that large vented boxes were the only way to go for home theater satisfaction but I don't anymore. You can make a Fathom sound bass-heavy and overbearing if you like but you can't make most other high-output subs sound musical and "tight".

For those people auditioning any sub be it the Fathoms, DD18, SVS etc... when you are in someone's house or at the dealer and you are assessing a sub, ask yourself if the room shape, size, etc... are similar to your own room. Scrutinize the settings to see if they jive with your own preferences. I don't know any dealers that let you try the subs at home so if you find one treat them like gold!

I made my decision to buy the subs based on reading the published reviews, the mini-reviews on this website (and some reading between the lines), Craigsubs measurements, and the technical specs/size etc..... There are no stocking dealers around here (Toronto) so it was a bit of a gamble, and I think it has paid off.

The Bogg

Even if the Def Tech can hit 2db more at 1-2hz deeper, you will most likely never notice the difference. Surely not enought to give up everythng else the JL does better.That might be true, but what do we know about the things the Fathom does better than the Trinity? I haven't heard from anyone that actually has one.

I saw someone mention in a Black Hawk Down thread that the chopper blades were down in the 5-7Hz range and that the sealed subs would do a better job of getting down that low than a ported/PR sub? Is that true?

Given that the Irene scene from BHD is my favorite demo, I'd love to be able to get that 5-7Hz!

This deep you will only pass using multiple 18" ubber excursion woofers in a IB installation or the fan subs(another IB type sub,when best performance is to be extracted).

The Trinity starts to roll severly @16Hz ,look at the optimistic numbers posted on definitive website.They claim 128dB @ 20hz(probably the BIG portion resides 20-50hz where you will have hellacious output) and falls to 116dB @ 16Hz.

They very probably used corner loading and measured a peak with no distortion limit.In this case no longer as impressive for a larger sub. Note the 12dB drop from 20 to 16hz max output! Now imagine the drop further down probably 110dB @ 12Hz and below 10hz you cannot expect much,and distortion would be sky high.

I would like to see Mr Nousaine test this sub. Or our local AVS tester ...I name Craig.

The sealed f113,has very good max output ,but it has its limits.One driver ,a 13.5" one even the most capable one cannot move mountains. I tested in my room a single f113 does great to a bit under 16hz. Pomp & Pipes organ music sounds majestic,using two gets me the freedom to reach levels to my liking.

5-7hz have to be played back at at least 110dB and more to have an impact,and 120dB goal is ideal.This however is only a reality using two to three fan subs.Major cost ,or an army of 18" IB woofers in a IB configuration.

As long as you have a sub capable of reaching 10hz or very close with tactile output you should be good.

fair enough question ransac. I owned the Trinity before I replaced it with a Velo DD-15 v2.2. I felt I had a genuine increase in sound quality but the Trinity would play louder for sure. When the JL's became available I purchased both the 112 and 113. SQ of both the JL's surpassed the Velo with the 113 having a considerable increase in overall SPL as well. So I guess from my stand point, and what I have discovered through actual listening and not statistical measuring, I think the JL's offer 95% of what makes the Trinity great..............high spl down low. They also offer a level of detail and accuracy the Trinity will never offer. For me this (JL113 vs Trinity) is a easy choice. The JL may not be the last word in musicality (for that look no further than dual Voce Divina Contrabbasso's or the Talon Thunderbird) but for powered subs in this price-range, the JL offers such a great combination it is almost a no-brainer type purchase. For people who live and die by printed/published stats, the JL might not be for them though.

I saw someone mention in a Black Hawk Down thread that the chopper blades were down in the 5-7Hz range and that the sealed subs would do a better job of getting down that low than a ported/PR sub? Is that true?

Given that the Irene scene from BHD is my favorite demo, I'd love to be able to get that 5-7Hz!

I would look towards the SubMersive subwoofer bij Mark Seaton for any meaningful extension in that frequency range, especially if you have a moderately sized room and stone/concrete walls. The way the SubMersive drops off at the lower end (12dB/octave) is compensated by room influences so you can get a flat response from 8-10Hz up. At 5-7Hz there would still be reasonable output levels I would presume.

Nice write up John. It sounds like you came to many of the same conclusions as I did when I compared Rob's (RMK!) DD18 and the F113 (link (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=770381)). I was surprised you used the same material as we did, but if I recall, Rob go the Mino CD from you. We only played the Moun Madinina track. There was a short burst of deep bass that made the Velo flutter, probably synthesized as I don't think there is any natural bass guitar that can cause the DD18 a problem.

I found them both to be a little thin on WOTW and U-571, but that could have just been Rob's set up.

I am one of those 'SPL is everything' types as I only use mine for HT. I too find my big ported sub gives me a more satisfying tactile impact than the DD18 or the F113, but again, that's probably from differences in settings.
Hi Randy

Actually it was Rob who turned me on to Mino Cinelu, bassist and percussionist extrodinaire, and a good sub test candidate. There are several very good bass heavy tracks but I thought I'd play that one to compare notes with you and Rob.

I wish JL would release a FR graph like many companies do. Based on the quick close mic test , I don't think their is as much below 20hz output as some big ported subs hence the less tactile feel. The port does have its benefits even if it does introduce artifacts which aren't present with the sealed subs. This is another case where I wish we had CEA standard distortion weighted measurement to compare performance.

In any event the JL subs are outstanding performers.

I currently own a SVS PB12-Ultra/2 in a room 20 X 35 feet. I am considering selling my SVS and getting a DD-18 or JL 113.

Do you think I would notice a difference as far as sound quality is concerned? What about total SPL output? I can't decide for the life of me wither to keep the SVS or upgrade.

Has anyone owned an SVS and can offer an opinion? Generally speaking how much more low bass output does a JL113 have over the DD-18? I love the fact that the DD-18 has a very sophisticated limiter.

Thanks,

-Brian

You have to consider what are your main applications: HT or music. That sub is a fine choice for HT and I had a PC-Ultra in my multi-sub setup for a long time 12hz tuned. There is a definite improvement in sound quality owing primarily to the sealed alignment and the superior amp/drivers in the JL and Velo but you are going to give up some output and tactile feel moving from the Ultra/2, so it depends what is more important to you. I'll let others opine on your question regarding low bass output between the JL113 and the DD-18.

If you look at the specs, the Trinity should best the Fathom. More cone plus the PRs. Almost as powerful an amp 2000/2500. JL doesn't have the FR published. The Def states 10-200 but not the +- spec. They also don't state the tuning point of the PRs. One issue that keeps coming up with Def is their published specs. I am only paraphrasing here as I don't know, but many have said that Defs low end is not a usable low end, only that the driver responds at that freq. So it may move some air at 10 Hz, but not enough for you to hear or feel. They also state a 2000 Watt amp, but don't state if that is continuous or peak. I would bet it is peak. You may have to wait for independent testing to find out if it lives up to its claims.

This may also be true with the Fathom as they don't post FR.

Maybe someone knows of any performance measurements made on either of these subs that will show true FR.

I do know that the amplifier section in the F113 is rated at 2500 W RMS.

-Eli

I wish JL would release a FR graph like many companies do. Based on the quick close mic test , I don't think their is as much below 20hz output as some big ported subs hence the less tactile feel. The port does have its benefits even if it does introduce artifacts which aren't present with the sealed subs. This is another case where I wish we had CEA standard distortion weighted measurement to compare performance.

In any event the JL subs are outstanding performers.
http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/home-audio-subwoofers/2660-jl-audio-fathom-f113-ground-plane-results.html

There are some measurements on the F113 I could find. Looks pretty impressive. :)

I do know that the amplifier section in the F113 is rated at 2500 W RMS.

-Eli

How they can extract that much power from a household 120V circuit remains a mystery. I'm assuming that is a peak number.

How they can extract that much power from a household 120V circuit remains a mystery. I'm assuming that is a peak number.

Its not. It has been discussed by Manville here on AVS and on JLs website.

"Our electronics engineering team, armed with vast experience in switching amplifier design, was ready to tackle this tough project. The power goals were lofty, which created a huge challenge when the realities of typical home electrical circuits were considered. An intense analysis of typical program material and its dynamic demands allowed the design team to balance current draw and actual output power requirements relative to the system's impedance characteristics.

After careful study, a pair of precisely engineered switching amplifiers employing JL Audio's patented Class D feedback technology were created. These advanced designs are capable of unclipped output voltages equivalent to 1500 watts (f112) and 2500 watts (f113) of RMS power when referenced to the nominal loudspeaker impedance, allowing us to take full advantage of each driver's full excursion envelope.

It’s not magic, but it certainly borders on it. "

A dedicated line might be in order. A 15-amp circuit can handle a total of 1,800 watts, while a 20-amp circuit can handle a total of 2,400 watts, but these figures represent circuits that are fully loaded. In practice, you should limit the load on a 15-amp circuit to no more than 1,440 watts, and the load on a 20-amp line should exceed no more than 1,920 watts.

JLs web site does state the amp is rated at 2500 Wrms for short term. So it is peak.

The website does says "short-term" for those numbers.

http://home.jlaudio.com/pdfs/10456.pdf

The owners manual does recommend a dedicated AC circuit for each Fathom.

"Angry neighbors knocking at your door.
Invite them in and offer them a beverage."

Gotta love it :)

I don't see a fuse on the 113? So they aren't UL approved?

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/home-audio-subwoofers/2660-jl-audio-fathom-f113-ground-plane-results.html

There are some measurements on the F113 I could find. Looks pretty impressive. :)

Thanks Richard. :) Interesting thread with the usual suspects. Glad to see others are starting to clamour for CEA 2010 distortion weighted measurements. It would make these discussions much better for all with less confusion.

Those JL graphs are impressive and corroborate nicely with the close mic sweeps we ran. Still curious how quickly response falls off compared to the other subs. Also, how those SPL numbers would stack up if they were distortion weighted. I suspect very well based on what I heard.

I don't see a fuse on the 113? So they aren't UL approved?

Wait a minute,I'll check tonight. The Sunfire (active and PR) are not UL approved,if the VC is shorted...you may have problems. Well I have four Sunfire subs and none ever had any issues,always connected.My Mark II(now sold,replaced by EQ) was purchased when it came out.

When I auditioned the f113 in TX yesterday, the sales guy said he was extremely impressed with the ARO. He thought it made a HUGE difference in the sound quality of the sub. That's a big factor to me as I'm not much of a tweaker. But it seems like you guys here don't put much stock in it. Is that just because you prefer to do your own setup or because you don't think the ARO does a good job?

I think I've narrowed down my choices to the f113 or the Submersive. The ARO makes me lean toward the f113 because I'm afraid I wouldn't be able to set up the Submersive correctly. Any thoughts?

When I auditioned the f113 in TX yesterday, the sales guy said he was extremely impressed with the ARO. He thought it made a HUGE difference in the sound quality of the sub. That's a big factor to me as I'm not much of a tweaker. But it seems like you guys here don't put much stock in it. Is that just because you prefer to do your own setup or because you don't think the ARO does a good job?

I think I've narrowed down my choices to the f113 or the Submersive. The ARO makes me lean toward the f113 because I'm afraid I wouldn't be able to set up the Submersive correctly. Any thoughts?


When threads start getting as long as this one it becomes hard to go through it all so Ill chime in as many others will.

The consensus on ARO is that it is In Fact a GOOD sub eq that makes the F113 the exceptional product that it is. ARO, however, is no replacement for an SMS-1 pretty much because of the bands eq'd. Maybe this is the negative bias you've perceived against it?

If your not getting an SMS-1, then ARO is definitely the way to go...

If you do go the with the submersive as this is not a bad sub in its own right, it would be that much better with an SMS-1. The SMS-1, with more options, will require more tweaking than ARO.

The consensus on ARO is that it is In Fact a GOOD sub eq that makes the F113 the exceptional product that it is. ARO, however, is no replacement for an SMS-1 pretty much because of the bands eq'd. Maybe this is the negative bias you've perceived against it?
Thanks for the feedback. I think it was a matter of perspective. I'm coming from a non-tweaker/non-audiophile perspective and I'm thinking the ARO would be a big improvement for me.

And maybe more experienced serious tweakers here find the ARO a little lacking compared to the other things you mentioned.

So I think for me both the sub and the ARO will be a huge improvement over my current setup.

Hmmm, I just looked at the SMS-1 @ the Velodyne site. That looks pretty easy to use. Maybe I should consider an SMS-1 with the Submersive instead of the f113?

The SMS will have more "tweakability" with the Submersive but there is no question the ARO will be easier to use.

This is indeed a long thread and a lot to read. I have said a couple of times in the thread, that I sold my SMS-1 when I got my F113s. The ARO workes that well. Maybe not for everyones room, but good enough for mine.

The SMS will have more "tweakability" with the Submersive but there is no question the ARO will be easier to use.
When I looked at the SMS manual, it basically looked like you just hit "go" and it did its thing. Is it more complicated?

This is indeed a long thread and a lot to read. I have said a couple of times in the thread, that I sold my SMS-1 when I got my F113s. The ARO workes that well. Maybe not for everyones room, but good enough for mine.
I guess I'm thinking about it as:
f113 (with ARO) vs. Submersive + SMS

Which would be better for HT?

Which would be better for HT?


You are asking which to buy? A Porsche or an M6. Either way you are getting a top of the line product.

Best advise is always to listen for yourself and let your own ears decide

Good Luck! You can't go wrong.

I just got my F113 uncreated it and dam this thing is heavy....I have two step going from foyer to living room.That glossy finish is incredible....I'll start to play with it over the weekend,I'll never go to sleep if start now!!! Glad to hear that the A.R.O is eeeaaasy to use,I am tweak challenge...

But I have to say just with finish & the weight is light years over my last Sub the Sunfire EQ.
I'll try to post some pics.

Can't wait to start to play........

Djoel

You are asking which to buy? A Porsche or an M6. Either way you are getting a top of the line product.
You're right, I'm sure I can't go wrong, just obsessing about which might go lower/harder for HT. My impression from those here is that the f113 would be the choice if I listened much to music while the Submersive might have the edge in HT. Just wondering if folks had thoughts on that.

Best advise is always to listen for yourself and let your own ears decide
Only problem with that is finding a Submersive to listen to. I've listened to the f113, but have no idea how the Submersive would compare.

Only problem with that is finding a Submersive to listen to. I've listened to the f113, but have no idea how the Submersive would compare.


Can you purchase the submersive and maybe take it to the JL dealer or try to barrow an F113 to take home? Better stores will try to accomodate buyers.

You're right, I'm sure I can't go wrong, just obsessing about Only problem with that is finding a Submersive to listen to. I've listened to the f113, but have no idea how the Submersive would compare.

I have the exact same problem, no SubMersive (or f113) here in Europe to listen to. The consensus is that the SubMersive will go lower and play about as loud and clean 20Hz and up. In a medium sized room with brick or concrete walls you should see extension down to 8-10Hz typically.

Beware, the SMS-1 isn't designed for ultra-low bass and will reduce part of the signal below 20Hz. Maybe the upcoming SVS Audyssey AS-EQ1 will prove a better option.

I'm gonna say it..............GO FOR THE JL F113 JACKSONIAN!!!!!! :) :) :) Nothing against the Submersive, but the JL has EVERYTHING you are looking for in one package (SPL, DEEP bass, musicality, room correction, great finish)!! how can you lose?

I'm gonna say it..............GO FOR THE JL F113 JACKSONIAN!!!!!! :) :) :) Nothing against the Submersive, but the JL has EVERYTHING you are looking for in one package (SPL, DEEP bass, musicality, room correction, great finish)!! how can you lose?

Well said.

Talk talk talk,he needs to get one f113 HOME and listen at HOME.Not some showroom.

I purchased my JL's based on the company reputation in the sub world(damn superb W7's ,with a rock solid reputation for first rate quality and amazing output).

Here and now the f113 stands alone as the quality champ,no other sub under 5K is built this well and uses components this good. There are challengers yes,now they have to dethrone the champ. Anyone who doubts the f113,needs a dose of reality and listen to one properly set up.

.

Beware, the SMS-1 isn't designed for ultra-low bass and will reduce part of the signal below 20Hz. Maybe the upcoming SVS Audyssey AS-EQ1 will prove a better option.

That's not right. SMS-1 subsonic filter can be set down to 5hz in 1hz increments with slopes from 6db to 48db not that it matters that low. Works very well in the ultra low extension.

Beware, the SMS-1 isn't designed for ultra-low bass and will reduce part of the signal below 20Hz.

You got my attention too. Please elaborate.

That's not right. SMS-1 subsonic filter can be set down to 5hz in 1hz increments with slopes from 6db to 48db not that it matters that low. Works very well in the ultra low extension.
Actually that IS right. Check these measurements.

http://www.avtalk.co.uk/forum/index.php?t=msg&rid=14&SQ=1157533547&th=18235&goto=200440#msg_200440

The 5 Hz setting isn't really 5 Hz. It's actually -30 dB at 5 Hz opposed to -3 dB it should be. :(

What is misleading about these statement is that virtually all audio components have sloping response as frequency approaches DC. Please let me know if there is an equalizer (or any component) that does not slope at very low frequencies. As AVTalk states it is a moot point at these single digit levels anyway though the recommended setting is 5HZ with 6db slope assuming your sub has filter protection. I've had an SMS-1 in my system for a year and it has no problem passing single digit signals. The bigger issue is making sure your sub can handle such low signals without damaging the drivers.

Obviously I don't own one of these, so please correct me if I'm reading this incorrectly, but I looked at the SMS manual online and it says this in the setup instructions explaining each setting:

Subsonic Filter Frequency and Slope – Set your SMS-1’s subsonic filter (low frequency limit), in increments of 1, between 15 Hz – 35 Hz and slope at 6, 12, 18, 24, and 48 dB/octave.

So you *can* set it lower, but they don't advise that? Or you can't set it lower at all?

Can't set at any lower than 5 hz with 6db/octave slope.

Actually that IS right. Check these measurements.

http://www.avtalk.co.uk/forum/index.php?t=msg&rid=14&SQ=1157533547&th=18235&goto=200440#msg_200440

The 5 Hz setting isn't really 5 Hz. It's actually -30 dB at 5 Hz opposed to -3 dB it should be. :(

Aren't you assuming that his sub will do 5 Hz at the same level as the rest of the range on his sub? The downslope is likely to be the result of the natural rolloff of the sub. If not, I want one(maybe 2). :D

What is misleading about these statement is that virtually all audio components have sloping response as frequency approaches DC. Please let me know if there is an equalizer (or any component) that does not slope at very low frequencies. As AVTalk states it is a moot point at these single digit levels anyway though the recommended setting is 5HZ with 6db slope assuming your sub has filter protection. I've had an SMS-1 in my system for a year and it has no problem passing single digit signals. The bigger issue is making sure your sub can handle such low signals without damaging the drivers.
Yes, all electronics do have some amount of low frequency roll-off, it's the amount that counts. SMS-1 does pass single digit signals, it only attenuates them heavily.

Here's the LF roll-off for the Behringer Feedback Destroyer (BFD) (http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/bfd-rew-forum/2236-dsp1124p-roll-off.html#post15546). Virtually 0 dB down @ 5 Hz.

Please see the attachment for the LF roll-off for the Onix R-DES. Around -10 dB @ 5 Hz.

Obviously I don't own one of these, so please correct me if I'm reading this incorrectly, but I looked at the SMS manual online and it says this in the setup instructions explaining each setting:

Subsonic Filter Frequency and Slope – Set your SMS-1’s subsonic filter (low frequency limit), in increments of 1, between 15 Hz – 35 Hz and slope at 6, 12, 18, 24, and 48 dB/octave.

So you *can* set it lower, but they don't advise that? Or you can't set it lower at all?
The newest firmware allows 5 Hz at 6 dB/oct. slope. But as the measurements show, unfortunately it's nowhere near that.

What is misleading about these statement is that virtually all audio components have sloping response as frequency approaches DC. Please let me know if there is an equalizer (or any component) that does not slope at very low frequencies.

You can easily see a drop of 10dB at 10Hz -with or without any filter. I for one care for extension and loss of SPL below 20Hz.

Movies nowadays more often contain ultra-low bass, your audio gear (especially expensive stuff like the SMS-1) should be able to handle that, and handle it well.

edit: slightly changed because poster changed his previous post.

Aren't you assuming that his sub will do 5 Hz at the same level as the rest of the range on his sub? The downslope is likely to be the result of the natural rolloff of the sub. If not, I want one(maybe 2). :D
There is no subwoofer in line. That is a loopback response.

Obviously I don't own one of these, so please correct me if I'm reading this incorrectly, but I looked at the SMS manual online and it says this in the setup instructions explaining each setting:

Subsonic Filter Frequency and Slope – Set your SMS-1’s subsonic filter (low frequency limit), in increments of 1, between 15 Hz – 35 Hz and slope at 6, 12, 18, 24, and 48 dB/octave.

So you *can* set it lower, but they don't advise that? Or you can't set it lower at all?

Velodyne released a firmware revision last spring v2.12 for the SMS-1which I beta tested. The new firmware revised the subsonic filter setting down to 5hz. The manual does not reflect this new firmware revision. During the beta phase there was much discussion about whether the firmware should be released since loud signals that low can potentially damage subs.

Velodyne released a firmware revision last spring v2.12 for the SMS-1which I beta tested. The new firmware revised the subsonic filter setting down to 5hz. The manual does not reflect this new firmware revision.
Thanks, that makes more sense.

So you guys still vote for the f113 with ARO over a Submersive + SMS for home theater?

Yes, all electronics do have some amount of low frequency roll-off, it's the amount that counts. SMS-1 does pass single digit signals, it only attenuates them heavily.

Here's the LF roll-off for the Behringer Feedback Destroyer (BFD) (http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/bfd-rew-forum/2236-dsp1124p-roll-off.html#post15546). Virtually 0 dB down @ 5 Hz.

Please see the attachment for the LF roll-off for the Onix R-DES. Around -10 dB @ 5 Hz.

Given the inaccuracy of measuing instruments at these frequencies and the sighted technique mentioned, I find those claims highly doubtful. I also own both a Behringer DSP1124p and the DSP2496. They are both OK but no where near as capable and functional as the SMS.

Given the inaccuracy of measuing instruments at these frequencies and the sighted technique mentioned, I find those claims highly doubtful.
What's wrong with the measuring instruments? Double loopback measurement guarantees there's no additional error.


I also own both a Behringer DSP1124p and the DSP2496. They are both OK but no where near as capable and functional as the SMS.
That's true, but weren't were talking about the LF roll-off? :)

We were Richard. ;) I've inserted all three of these equalizers into the system and they all do a very good job at equalization and the FR curves are not noticeably different in room. The DSP1124p is excellent value but has the highest noise to signal ratio of the three. The DSP2496 is a great equalizer with its 24/96 processing but it is tricky to dial in without the visuals of the SMS. Its noise to signal ratio is comparable to the SMS. All the DSP processing in these units is highly accurate. I find roll-off is more a funtion of the digital to analog electronics in the units and just as significantly the rolloff of the external amplifiers.

To keep this discussion into perspective, the further below 20hz the more meauring instruments especially microphones lose accuracy. The best mic I've encountered is a B & K which costs $25,000 and its calibration curves are not accurate at 5hz either.

To keep this discussion into perspective, the further below 20hz the more meauring instruments especially microphones lose accuracy. The best mic I've encountered is a B & K which costs $25,000 and its calibration curves are not accurate at 5hz either.
That's true, but there's no mic in line. These are loopback measurements, meaning the signal goes only through the EQ device. No mic, no subwoofer in line.

That's true, but there's no mic in line. These are loopback measurements, meaning the signal goes only through the EQ device. No mic, no subwoofer in line.

That changes things.

Generally speaking I disregard the accuracy of statistics as current approaches DC but to each his own. 10HZ is a cutoff point with reputable amplifier manufacturers when it comes to citing accurate numbers. When pushed they will cite lower numbers but always couch their statements based on how valid the measurements can be at these extreme levels and the difficulty in measuring linearity or rolloff. Its been a while from my days in physics labs but I doubt much has changed in this area.

In any event while interesting we have digressed far from the topic of this thread, JL subs, and I would suggest this topic belongs in the audio theory forum or an equalization thread .

Getting back a little bit to the actual subs with the eq (you guys are miles over my head), the big thing that looked like the SMS would do over the ARO is to help me place the sub in the best spot.

From what I read, you can put it in the corner, run the SMS and see what kind of dips and peaks you're getting. Then you can move the sub around to eliminate the dips first, then use the eq to level the peaks. Is that correct?

With the ARO, I'd need to use an SPL meter to do that manually to find the best spot for the f113, right? I know to you guys that's not a big deal, but I doubt my technical skills in that area.

From what I read, you can put it in the corner, run the SMS and see what kind of dips and peaks you're getting. Then you can move the sub around to eliminate the dips first, then use the eq to level the peaks. Is that correct?

This is the ideal

As reducing is much prefered to boosing a given frequency. Better have peaks than dips,you can tame a peak and not stress the sub more like with any boosting.

With the SMS I try first to find the spot with least dips,then place the sub there and then work on reducing the peaks. If there is any frequency to boost,it will often be on the order of 2-3dB not more.

A flat freq response is ideal,as long as severe boost is not applied to achieve it,as any sub will have to work much harder to keep this flat response and compress/distort before.

GOT DAM IT! That A.R.O is sure a big help...I still had some tweaking but it smooth out some of bumpiness...I am listening to some mis ninetys sythn music ,and the lows are very scary in ny tiny apartment.. :eek: :eek:

The ARO is really nice. I have two F113's and have them daisy chained, very nice feature too!

Hopefully I will be picking up my 113 today. In reading the manual it says the preferred connection is balanced, I have about 14 ft from my Anthem D2 to the 113, I know that for lengths >6ft it is the preferred connection between PrePro and amp, I guess same applies for sub.

Also, should I manage the 113 from the 113 or the D2? I'll post this ? to the D2 thread.

Manual doesn't say anything about break in periods. How long??

Thanks,

Lou

Hopefully I will be picking up my 113 today. In reading the manual it says the preferred connection is balanced, I have about 14 ft from my Anthem D2 to the 113, I know that for lengths >6ft it is the preferred connection between PrePro and amp, I guess same applies for sub.

Also, should I manage the 113 from the 113 or the D2? I'll post this ? to the D2 thread.

Manual doesn't say anything about break in periods. How long??

Thanks,

Lou

1. Good choice :cool:

2. Balanced is the prefered cable but not necessary for that short of a run.

3. I would use the bass managment of the D2 and set the Level mode on the F113 to Reference after you run ARO. ARO requires the Level Mode be set to Variable. Use the ELF Trim, Polarity and Phase settings to dial it in. The manual explains this all fairly well.

4, Break in is 30-45 seconds ;)

If you are picking it up, be sure to get the original box and packing material.

Hopefully I will be picking up my 113 today. In reading the manual it says the preferred connection is balanced, I have about 14 ft from my Anthem D2 to the 113, I know that for lengths >6ft it is the preferred connection between PrePro and amp, I guess same applies for sub.

Also, should I manage the 113 from the 113 or the D2? I'll post this ? to the D2 thread.

Manual doesn't say anything about break in periods. How long??

Thanks,

Lou

I have about 35 feet going around my sofa to my F113 and back to my Avm 30 using balance! I thought lxr it's beneficial for long runs :confused: But no hums any how :)

I think it would be good Idea to tweak some more through the AVM30 or bad Idea???

I am try to make the sub disappear completely....I have all this long weekend thank to MLK.

Djoel

I am try to make the sub disappear completely Djoel

You live in NYC correct? Just post your address and your wish will come true. :p

I'm gonna say it..............GO FOR THE JL F113 JACKSONIAN!!!!!! :) :) :) Nothing against the Submersive, but the JL has EVERYTHING you are looking for in one package (SPL, DEEP bass, musicality, room correction, great finish)!! how can you lose?
I took your advice and ordered one today, should be here next week! Can't wait to crank it up. My only problem now is that I don't want to watch/listen to anything because all I can think about is how much better it will sound next week.

We were watching the old episodes of Rome and they have tons of big bass drum beats! :D

We were watching the old episodes of Rome and they have tons of big bass drum beats!

Yes, Rome definitely has some cool bass. :)

My only problem now is that I don't want to watch/listen to anything because all I can think about is how much better it will sound next week.

Rent a couple of chick flix to get you through the week. :)

Thats great Jacksonian, congradulations! You wouldn't have gone wrong with either sub but overall I think you made the right choice :)

Rent a couple of chick flix to get you through the week. :)

THAT was funny ... :D

You live in NYC correct? Just post your address and your wish will come true. :p


Nah...not around these hoods.....If...wit all the component in and out my place.
That would have happened a long time ago.

But thats funny...I was like cool some one is going to help me set up!...You got me...Ha.....Ha...

You should believe all you see on TV! well some of those things...Just not all of them. :p

Djoel

I took your advice and ordered one today, should be here next week! Can't wait to crank it up. My only problem now is that I don't want to watch/listen to anything because all I can think about is how much better it will sound next week.

We were watching the old episodes of Rome and they have tons of big bass drum beats! :D

Believe me I have a pair of Def tech...Mythos 1... Without any Bass for about three weeks I was thirsty for bass.Until now. All much better now. :cool:

Welcome to the club jacksonian.

Djoel

1. Good choice :cool:

2. Balanced is the prefered cable but not necessary for that short of a run.

3. I would use the bass managment of the D2 and set the Level mode on the F113 to Reference after you run ARO. ARO requires the Level Mode be set to Variable. Use the ELF Trim, Polarity and Phase settings to dial it in. The manual explains this all fairly well.

4, Break in is 30-45 seconds ;)

If you are picking it up, be sure to get the original box and packing material.


Thanks for the pointers. Picked it up today, will set it up tomorrow. Still sitting in the hatch of my Acura MDX till my bro comes to help me carry it to my theater room. :)

I took your advice and ordered one today, should be here next week! Can't wait to crank it up. My only problem now is that I don't want to watch/listen to anything because all I can think about is how much better it will sound next week.

We were watching the old episodes of Rome and they have tons of big bass drum beats! :D

Welcome to the F113 family, you won't be disappointed!! I promise :D .

How does the Fathom F113 compare to the PB12-Plus/2?

here is a subjective ranking done by an amateur, but very very well respected reviewer, who does use a consistent and thorough job of comparing some very popular sub models. I havent owned the Plus 2, but I have owned the Plus and that woofer is outstanding. Also keep in mind the JL costs essentially double what a Plus 2 costs, but the Fathom is absolutely an incredible woofer.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=768150

Add me to the growing ranks of JL Audio Fathom owners. I purchased two F113’s last week and have them installed in my multi purpose room. I am not going to post any great detail regarding measured nor even observer performance of the F113’s. Honestly, I am not capable of providing data worthy of the effort so if that is what you are looking for you might want to stop reading now.

Like many here, I do not have a dedicated space for either HT or two/multi channel music so aesthetic compromises (WAF) are inevitable. I like the look of the room and the WAF input was invaluable as I have little or no decorating sense. The subwoofer has always been the primary eyesore and this latest under end table solution has achieved a nice compromise between form and function. I have always wanted to run dual subs as I have large leaky (>8,000 CF) space. I had dual DD-18’s for a short trial but the aesthetic trade offs with those relatively large boxes was unacceptable (even to me). The Fathoms offered a smaller form factor that could be disguised by furniture with virtually no loss of performance.

My system is used primarily for music and movies with a little bit of television (sports and HD stuff. After installing the Fathoms and running ARO, I used the Velo EQ to run room FR sweeps with the Velo muted. The Fathoms produced an amazingly flat response (+/- 4db) from 20-150Hz. Without ARO (Defeat Mode on the Fathom) there is a nasty 12db peak at 60Hz. I am using the Parasound C2’s bass management 80Hz crossover and the subs are running dual mono (master/slave in JL speak). The C2’s setup cut the sub(s) levels by 7db but the Parasound has a specific Dolby/DTS LFE boost capability that I have played with to get a bit more tactile impact.

I have only played a couple of films and some of the more notable LFE film segments but the dual Fathoms near field positioning gives my two primary seats all the bass I need.
With music, I have never heard output this clean and powerful.

I am still playing and tweaking (does that ever stop?) but thus far it is all good and seems to be a nice solution for my difficult space. I will miss the DD-18 (just something magical about that sub) but for me the Fathoms provide great performance and minimal compromise.

Impressive RMK! I would like to ad a second F113 down the road, but a single F113 will do for now. I wondered when someone would chime in regarding the mono, master/slave JL set-up and how that combination works.

RMK! ... Very nicely done. My wife is giving me the raspberries for my Fathom layout ... guess it is time to hide the wires ... :D

RMK, clever, clever, clever disguise for your subs! :D

RMK! ... Very nicely done. My wife is giving me the raspberries for my Fathom layout ... guess it is time to hide the wires ... :D

Craig,
Great pictures of the “lineup” in your review thread. Stacking the Fathoms was a consideration, but the end table suspended over the top was not a good look :p . Re the wires, all of your subs are such short timers no point in allowing them to get too settled in. ;)

I am still playing and tweaking (does that ever stop?) but thus far it is all good and seems to be a nice solution for my difficult space. I will miss the DD-18 (just something magical about that sub) but for me the Fathoms provide great performance and minimal compromise.
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RMK..Very nice!

Looking fine, Rob. Are you going to try them in stereo or leave them as dual mono? Now even my wife is remarking how good those JLs look under end tables especially compared to the big enclosures I have and that other sub I was thinking about... ;)

Looking fine, Rob. Are you going to try them in stereo or leave them as dual mono? Now even my wife is remarking how good those JLs look under end tables especially compared to the big enclosures I have and that other sub I was thinking about... ;)

Hi John,
Yes, the ladies like the subs hidden ;).
I would like to try stereo mode eventually but need to resolve some cabling issues and order an SMS-1 or similar to tweak. The in room FR is really quite good using mono and the JL ARO.

RMK!, you're a man after my wife's heart. But you're gonna scare the crap out of people when that thunder comes out of nowhere!

Can't wait to get mine hooked up next week.

What do you guys think I should do with my DefTech SuperCube 1? My room is only 2000cu.ft. Will it be of any help, or should I just sell it to help fund the upgrade? And if I did keep it, should I set the filter so it doesn't even attempt the really low stuff like the JL?

RMK
Welcome to the Fathom club. Sniff, I miss being the newest guy owning a pair of the subs. :(
But seriously, nice work with the hide-the-subwoofer setup. Watch out for flying coffee cups though!

The Bogg :)

can anyone tell me why You can use a standard rca (unbalanced) plug to connect reciever to the sub but then need a balanced connector to go from that sub to a slave sub? At least that how it seems to be explained for connecting two fantoms in daisy chain? I couldnt find any local shops that sold Balanced cable. Best Buy, Circuit city, Fry's.

can anyone tell me why You can use a standard rca (unbalanced) plug to connect reciever to the sub but then need a balanced connector to go from that sub to a slave sub? At least that how it seems to be explained for connecting two fantoms in daisy chain? I couldnt find any local shops that sold Balanced cable. Best Buy, Circuit city, Fry's.

You need to go to a music store. Guitar Center, ect. Anyone that sells pro audio equipment.

-Eli

can anyone tell me why You can use a standard rca (unbalanced) plug to connect reciever to the sub but then need a balanced connector to go from that sub to a slave sub? At least that how it seems to be explained for connecting two fantoms in daisy chain? I couldnt find any local shops that sold Balanced cable. Best Buy, Circuit city, Fry's.


As Eli said, Pro Audio/Music stores have balanced cables. I ordered mine from Blue Jeans Cables.

As to why, my guess is because there is more than just the mono LFE signal being sent to the slave sub. All of the sub settings including the level, crossover and ARO signal processing are done on the master and sent to the slave. Velodyne uses a separate serial cable for this purpose with their DD subs.

I was just reading up on the F113 and would like some clarification on a particular point.

It refers to a single parametric equalizer. Does that mean you only correct the most offending frequency, unlike the Velo DD series where you can adjust several frequencies??

I was just reading up on the F113 and would like some clarification on a particular point.

It refers to a single parametric equalizer. Does that mean you only correct the most offending frequency, unlike the Velo DD series where you can adjust several frequencies??

Yes and yes

Jim. The single shot in the JLs work effectively for the worst offending node but its not a complete solution. The Velo's have an edge in that department. Not all rooms need the more comprehensive solution though most would benefit. That's why I suggested a couple of Jls plus an SMS is likely as good as its going to get.

JL's manual shows nice diagrams with optimal spots when four subs are used. Very nice ,and with four the level of sub bass quality at sitting position will be
out of this world.

Even stacked,near a corner as they are now they perform to a level that reaches for sub bass greatness. With the ARO doing its job,I do not see many cases where more is needed(even if the SMS is a superior calibration tool).

As much as I love JL audio W7s (I have 3 12w7s and a 13w7) in different vehicles...

The price paid does not justify the subwoofer. Yes its true that the speakers "potential" as we call it is almost limitless...however this speaker is more dependant on the actual enclosure, not the circuitry. A common problem with ALL subwoofers is the fact that you have not just one frequency you are listening to...You are listening to things in the HT world from 15 hertz roughly to 100 hertz that requires a sub. Again for a punchy sound and impact I think the JL's were amazing (demo'd them)...but the servo technology that Velodyne implements and its "nebraskan" flat response due to that servo system is a force to be reckoned with. Its going to take the dual 13.5 enclosure to beat the DD-18 head to head (to overcome the DD-18's effective piston area, and frequency response) and thats around 8k USD correct me if I'm wrong. In the end SPL may match however the flat response will not. Personally I consider JL mainstream now...you pay top dollar for mainstream...Velodyne IMO isnt. You are paying more for technology. By the way I just purchased a DD-18 after demo'ing both the JL technology and the Velodyne.

can anyone tell me why You can use a standard rca (unbalanced) plug to connect reciever to the sub but then need a balanced connector to go from that sub to a slave sub? At least that how it seems to be explained for connecting two fantoms in daisy chain? I couldnt find any local shops that sold Balanced cable. Best Buy, Circuit city, Fry's.

I'm just using a Monster Y-spliter on my receiver to connect the two subs that I'm running. Is that not the right way to do it? By the way, I've got (1) SVS PB12-Plus/2 and (1) HSU MBM-12 ---- soon to have (2) SVS PB12-Plus/2's and (1) HSU MBM-12. :D

As much as I love JL audio W7s (I have 3 12w7s and a 13w7) in different vehicles...

The price paid does not justify the subwoofer. Yes its true that the speakers "potential" as we call it is almost limitless...however this speaker is more dependant on the actual enclosure, not the circuitry. A common problem with ALL subwoofers is the fact that you have not just one frequency you are listening to...You are listening to things in the HT world from 15 hertz roughly to 100 hertz that requires a sub. Again for a punchy sound and impact I think the JL's were amazing (demo'd them)...but the servo technology that Velodyne implements and its "nebraskan" flat response due to that servo system is a force to be reckoned with. Its going to take the dual 13.5 enclosure to beat the DD-18 head to head (to overcome the DD-18's effective piston area, and frequency response) and thats around 8k USD correct me if I'm wrong. In the end SPL may match however the flat response will not. Personally I consider JL mainstream now...you pay top dollar for mainstream...Velodyne IMO isnt. You are paying more for technology. By the way I just purchased a DD-18 after demo'ing both the JL technology and the Velodyne.

Test results do not agree with you......

Both are excellent subwoofers though.

-Eli

Its going to take the dual 13.5 enclosure to beat the DD-18 head to head (to overcome the DD-18's effective piston area, and frequency response) and thats around 8k USD correct me if I'm wrong.
You're very wrong. Even if you paid MSRP, that would only be $6400, and some folks got better prices. How much did you pay for a DD-18?

mjethier,

First of all, welcome. I see from your post count, your new to the forum.

This is a long thread... but if you read not very far in from the start you will see testing that supports the f113 taking on the DD-18 head to head and showing better numbers. As well as comments from a good many peoples amazement that the f113 will best a DD-18 with all its charms.

As always, YMMV.

Originally Posted by mjethier

...Personally I consider JL mainstream now...you pay top dollar for mainstream...Velodyne IMO isnt....

BTW mjethier, Velodyne has been around since the 1980's and building almost only subwoofers. I'm not sure where your from, but I don't think you can get much more "mainstream" than that.

I cant seem to find an authorized dealer here in Toronto, Canada. Audio Excellence was supposed to sell them, but they back out for some reason.

Any Canucks manage to find these subs? I'm interested in the Fathom 12.

I cant seem to find an authorized dealer here in Toronto, Canada. Audio Excellence was supposed to sell them, but they back out for some reason.

Any Canucks manage to find these subs? I'm interested in the Fathom 12.

I'm also from Toronto, well actually Richmond Hill, 1 minute from Audio Excellence. I did try to work with them but we couldn't get things sorted out in a timely manner so I got a pair of Fathom F113s via Dave Singh at Gemsen who hooked me up with a different authorized dealer. I suggest you call him and he will most certainly be able to help you out.

but the servo technology that Velodyne implements and its "nebraskan" flat response due to that servo system is a force to be reckoned with.

The Nebraskan flat response is not due to the servo. Also, you have to consider the spl that the flat response refers to because NO subwoofer (well okay there may be a few) is flat into the low bass at the highest spls. Like the other posters said, the JL measured flatter into the low bass at even higher spls. ;)

They are both excellent subs and no-one will go wrong with either of them, auditioning and choosing your favourite is definitely the way to go.

The Bogg

As much as I love JL audio W7s (I have 3 12w7s and a 13w7) in different vehicles...

The price paid does not justify the subwoofer. Yes its true that the speakers "potential" as we call it is almost limitless...however this speaker is more dependant on the actual enclosure, not the circuitry. A common problem with ALL subwoofers is the fact that you have not just one frequency you are listening to...You are listening to things in the HT world from 15 hertz roughly to 100 hertz that requires a sub. Again for a punchy sound and impact I think the JL's were amazing (demo'd them)...but the servo technology that Velodyne implements and its "nebraskan" flat response due to that servo system is a force to be reckoned with. Its going to take the dual 13.5 enclosure to beat the DD-18 head to head (to overcome the DD-18's effective piston area, and frequency response) and thats around 8k USD correct me if I'm wrong. In the end SPL may match however the flat response will not. Personally I consider JL mainstream now...you pay top dollar for mainstream...Velodyne IMO isnt. You are paying more for technology. By the way I just purchased a DD-18 after demo'ing both the JL technology and the Velodyne.



I have a Velodyne HGS18(DD18 has the SMS on top and dead quiet servo control) and the JL Audio f113. So no showroom demos here,hands,ears on experience.

A real subwoofer works 80Hz down,not 100Hz down. The effective piston of the JL f113 is around half of the 18" Velo,yes.However the displacement of the JL is greater than the HGS or DD18.

Take the linear and peak to peak on the Velo and the JL and compare,now you will quickly realise the JL moves MORE AIR.Like it or not. And deep bass output is moving air,plenty of air.

The area where the Velodyne has an advantage is the SMS over the ARO,even if the ARO works great.You cannot beat an onscreen user adjustable interface with a fully automated one and a less complex one.

Sound quality they are both on about the same level.

Each f113 retails in gloss black for $3300 and each DD18 retails for $4999. For your information.

Also when you talk mainstream,what are you talking about? The JL Aduio subs best much larger subs in sound quality and output,and the built quality and component quality is second to none. SO what is so mainstream about them?????

Enlighten me.

I am a Velodyne fan just as much as JL audio,but I would never say either is mainstream,as both are far above the average.

I cant seem to find an authorized dealer here in Toronto, Canada. Audio Excellence was supposed to sell them, but they back out for some reason.

Any Canucks manage to find these subs? I'm interested in the Fathom 12.


I know a dealer here in Montreal. PM me if you want the adress,telephone and a good recomendation to get a deal. ;)

I purchased over 20 subs from that dealer! You can ask him about me if you want,they will confirm I have severe Subwooferphillia. :p

Sound quality they are both on about the same level.

I'M CURIOUS..... I like both but until I hear them side-by-side, in a well conducted personal comparison, I'd have to guess the servo offers better control and I'd generally trade that for a certain amount of output.

There are two ways to achieve low distortion in a subwoofer:

A) to correct bad speaker behavior with a servo
B) to avoid bad speaker behavior in the first place and not use a servo

The advantage of A is that ultimately you can achieve lower measurable distortion than B (all other things being equal).
The advantage of B is that you don't trade off dynamic capability in order to correct distortion.

Either approach can result in excellent performance when the whole package is well engineered... the transducer guys generally focus on making better transducers and the electronics guys generally focus on fixing evil tranducers with electronic processing... therein lies the philosophical divide.

Question to Manville Smith,

Do you plan to release any 8 and 10" variants of your larger FATHOM subs this year?

So where in the NYC or Long Island area can one demo an F113? There must be a place.

I have a Fathom 113 on order for movie and music use. It will be replacing a Sunfire Jr. I like tight visceral bass when listening to music. My basement HT is treated only for first order reflections, no bass traps. Just from playing sweeps, I have at least 3 audible peaks up to ~90Hz. I'd like to create as much of a optimized acoustic bubble in the primary seating area, bass-wise. Would the sub's ARO be sufficient or should I spring for a SMS-1 as well? The sensible thing to do would be to go through usual sub location, tweaks and ARO before I decide...but I'm not...

Question to Manville Smith,

Do you plan to release any 8 and 10" variants of your larger FATHOM subs this year?

We plan to release the f110 (single 10-inch) in a few months. No plans exist at this time for an f108, but you never know.

Any owners out there have the Fathom 112? Is it what you expected?

I'm comparing this to Velodyne DD12 and B&W 825 subs.

Any owners out there have the Fathom 112? Is it what you expected?

I'm comparing this to Velodyne DD12 and B&W 825 subs.

There is a Thread specific to the F112.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=767848

Originally Posted by UPressure

The sensible thing to do would be to go through usual sub location, tweaks and ARO before I decide...but I'm not... I would advise doing the sensible thing unless you just feel you have to have an SMS-1.

Again it's a long thread... this question has been asked and answered many many times. ARO has been doing the job. One poster, nethomas, sold his SMS-1 in favor of the ARO with twin f113's. If you read the thread you will find many favorable opinions about the ARO setup.

I have a Fathom 113 on order for movie and music use. It will be replacing a Sunfire Jr. I like tight visceral bass when listening to music. My basement HT is treated only for first order reflections, no bass traps. Just from playing sweeps, I have at least 3 audible peaks up to ~90Hz. I'd like to create as much of a optimized acoustic bubble in the primary seating area, bass-wise. Would the sub's ARO be sufficient or should I spring for a SMS-1 as well? The sensible thing to do would be to go through usual sub location, tweaks and ARO before I decide...but I'm not...

I had the original Sunfire Jr with a Mark II (both sold now),great compact subs.What all these active/PR Sunfires have in common,they have to be cut 60hz and no higher as they have an almost total lack of any punch.This often mistaken for lack of "musicality".

The JL wil be a huge improvement even if cut deep,the clean defined sub bass and impact when cut higher will really impress you. And yes the ARO should do a good job,in any case the SMS is a great tool to have if you are serious about sub bass performance,as you cansee on screen the linearity at listening position.

We plan to release the f110 (single 10-inch) in a few months. No plans exist at this time for an f108, but you never know.

Thank you for the quick repply,

One last quick question if I may. What do you think of stacking an f112 on the f113? I ask because all my JL's are in gloss black and the rubber feet are directly on the gloss finish of the f113. Do you see any potential damage if it stays there as long as I have these subs?

I stack all my subs(from large to smallest),so far I had no issues with the other subs(Paradigm,Klipsch,Velodyne).I have to admit the others have a standard wood or black finish and I can see cleary spots left by the rubber feet.

I had the original Sunfire Jr with a Mark II (both sold now),great compact subs.What all these active/PR Sunfires have in common,they have to be cut 60hz and no higher as they have an almost total lack of any punch.This often mistaken for lack of "musicality".
...


b curry and TheEAR, thanks for your advise and for confirming my experience that attempting to send mid-bass or increase gain to the Sunfire Jr only seems to glob things up. My old Sunfire TGII prepro won't cut lower than 80Hz. Setting the mains to large makes the music sound "thin". I'll hold off on the SMS-1 and see what the F113/ARO does.

Based on the audition at the dealer, I hope iit makes a significant improvement here :)

I'm stoked to get mine, I can't wait.

Ear, do you think there's any point in me trying to use the DefTech Supercube 1 with the f113? I'm thinking in my 2000 cu.ft. room that it just won't be of any benefit and might actually make things worse. It's not going to go nearly as low or be as tight as the f113, so wouldn't it just make things sound worse? Or am I missing something?

jacksonian,

Using dual subs usually provides a flatter response curve and provides more headroom.

jacksonian,

Using dual subs usually provides a flatter response curve and provides more headroom.
I know I'm ignorant here, but how? Won't I have a fabulous subwoofer and a mediocre subwoofer? Won't the mediocre DefTech be boogering up the otherwise great bass? Or would I set the filter on the DefTech so that it only did the mid-upper bass and didn't attempt to go low?

And I haven't read the manual yet, but is it possible to daisy-chain the two and let the ARO from the Fathom do its thing with the DT in the mix?

Originally Posted by jacksonian

Ear, do you think there's any point in me trying to use the DefTech Supercube 1 with the f113? I'm thinking in my 2000 cu.ft. room that it just won't be of any benefit and might actually make things worse. It's not going to go nearly as low or be as tight as the f113, so wouldn't it just make things sound worse? Or am I missing something?
You can always try it... I think you might be creating more trouble than it's worth. The f113 will make your pant legs flap in a 2000 cubic ft. room. I would put the DT up for sale unless you have another room you want to use it in.


And I haven't read the manual yet, but is it possible to daisy-chain the two and let the ARO from the Fathom do its thing with the DT in the mix?
No. The ARO will Master/Slave (daisy-chain) only with another Fathom. If I recall correctly, you can connect up to eight units. The ARO Master would control all eight Fathoms. Of course you would want to have several dedicated circuits for eight 2500 watt amplifiers.

New numbers for a (presumably) working f112 are up:

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/speakers/1853/test-bench-jl-audio-fathom-f112-subwoofer.html

Frequency response (at 2 meters)
24 to 101 Hz ±2.5 dB
Bass limits (lowest frequency and maximum SPL with limit of 10% distortion at 2 meters in a large room)
16 Hz at 80 dB SPL
108 dB average SPL from 25 to 62 Hz
114 dB maximum SPL at 62 Hz
bandwidth uniformity 94%

The rating for 25hz was omitted, does 80dB @ 16Hz though, fwiw.

http://members.cox.net/fabulousfrankie/Nousaine.htm

Would be cool to see what he came up with for a 113 for comparative purposes.
msmith_JL,
any word on whether the initially poor Sound & Vision data was the result of a damaged product or because of testing error? I ask because in the subjective listening review by Daniel Kumin, he raved about the f112's awesome performance. If that sub was indeed defective such that the SPL capability was severely compromised, yet subjective listening showed it be a stellar performer, then I'm concerned that other Fathom owners who don't have measuring equipment or who haven't stress tested their Fathoms might also be missing out on the vast SPL capability of the sub without even knowing it because it still sounds good at non-furniture shattering levels.

msmith_JL,
any word on whether the initially poor Sound & Vision data was the result of a damaged product or because of testing error? I ask because in the subjective listening review by Daniel Kumin, he raved about the f112's awesome performance. If that sub was indeed defective such that the SPL capability was severely compromised, yet subjective listening showed it be a stellar performer, then I'm concerned that other Fathom owners who don't have measuring equipment or who haven't stress tested their Fathoms might also be missing out on the vast SPL capability of the sub without even knowing it because it still sounds good at non-furniture shattering levels.

It is somewhat of a mystery. We sent a second unit to TN which tested far better (these are the results currently posted) and TN indicated that the first unit did make a "funny noise" when he tried it again. We have received both units back and they both test out identically and within spec. So, in other words, we don't really know what happened.

I'm in final stages of construction of two channel/home theater room.
My two channel equipment includes an ARC reference 3 tube preamp which
I will use for music only. This preamp has a surround processor bypass
feature which allows the SSP to control the volume of my main speakers. Pertaining to the Fathom 113, can I connect to both unbalanced AND balanced inputs simultaneously from both the LFE output of my SSP as well as the pre out of my ARC two channel preamp? Or would I need to change connections on the sub depending on the application? Also the room dimensions are 17'x27'x9'. Would one Fathom 113 be sufficient?
Thanks in advance!
Vrac

Vrac... as long as you don't operate both the 2ch preamp and multi-channel pre-pro at the same time you can connect to both inputs.

Vrac... as long as you don't operate both the 2ch preamp and multi-channel pre-pro at the same time you can connect to both inputs.

Would there be any harm? What could happen?

Vrac...I have a dedicated room 17x27x10 and one Fathom 13 seems to be enough for the sub/LFE content. There is a lot of LF help from runnig the Vandersteen 5As full range for HT where they go down to 20 Hz - same as the Fathom in my room. I really have "three" subs.

TD

Vrac... as long as you don't operate both the 2ch preamp and multi-channel pre-pro at the same time you can connect to both inputs.
How would you hook-up the 113 to your audio research, there is only one balanced input on the fathom ?

I'm stoked to get mine, I can't wait.

Ear, do you think there's any point in me trying to use the DefTech Supercube 1 with the f113? I'm thinking in my 2000 cu.ft. room that it just won't be of any benefit and might actually make things worse. It's not going to go nearly as low or be as tight as the f113, so wouldn't it just make things sound worse? Or am I missing something?

You can always try,costs nothing.And you may find it to be a positive addition.When placed opposed to the f113.

And I would not say the Definitive is mediocre,please lets not exagerate here.

I never said Definitive was a POS ,simply not in the JL Audio class. Definitive makes very good HT subs. From very good down to mediocre there is a huge gap.

How would you hook-up the 113 to your audio research, there is only one balanced input on the fathom ?


There are two balanced inputs (and two unbalanced inputs) on each Fathom.

There are two balanced inputs (and two unbalanced inputs) on each Fathom.
yup. see that..thanks

You can always try,costs nothing.And you may find it to be a positive addition.When placed opposed to the f113.
So maybe try the f113 in the front corner and the DT in the back corner beside the listening position? Or both up front in the corners outside the L/R mains? And would I set the filter on the DT so it didn't attempt the deep lows to keep it from getting flabby down there?

And I would not say the Definitive is mediocre,please lets not exagerate here.

I never said Definitive was a POS ,simply not in the JL Audio class. Definitive makes very good HT subs. From very good down to mediocre there is a huge gap.
I wasn't slamming my own sub, heck, after watching the 1st season of Rome with it this weekend, I started questioning my upgrade.

But DefTech's materials say that a SuperCube Reference would equal the output of 4 SuperCube 1's like mine. So I just figured a f113 would probably be MUCH better/greater than even the Reference, hence my comment of mediocre. Maybe I should have used "average".

So maybe try the f113 in the front corner and the DT in the back corner beside the listening position? Or both up front in the corners outside the L/R mains? And would I set the filter on the DT so it didn't attempt the deep lows to keep it from getting flabby down there?


I wasn't slamming my own sub, heck, after watching the 1st season of Rome with it this weekend, I started questioning my upgrade.

But DefTech's materials say that a SuperCube Reference would equal the output of 4 SuperCube 1's like mine. So I just figured a f113 would probably be MUCH better/greater than even the Reference, hence my comment of mediocre. Maybe I should have used "average".


You know I have a strong feeling the largest SuperCube(non Trinity) should be in the f113 territory,SPL wise.

Now you do not buy an f113 only for is massive output. That would be a grand waste. The FATHOM lineup is the very definition of finesse,control and dynamics.
If you listen to a great drum solo by any drum great(well recorded) you will not want to go back to a mere SPL sub.

And music with synth bass or any deep bass will put a giant smile on your face. I know it did just that for me.And this is why I am hyping the JL subs so much.Before the FATHOM subs came I did not even consider JL and give much attention as I am not into car audio.No matter how great the W7 is.

I often think there is way to much emphasis put on spl over sound quality. For instance on another forum (S&V), who exclusively hypes SVS, which I may add are in fact outstanding products. I find it very interesting how much emphasis they put on strictly output. I'll use this as an example since I owned a SVS PB 12plus/2 and had it together with my JL. (by the way a single JL had more output than the SVS) Yes I could have bought two SVS PB 12/2's for pretty close to the same amount that I paid for a single JL. Would I have more output with dual SVS over a single JL, yes. But would the sound quality be as good as the JL no! My HT room is 14x19. I got rid of the SVS and went with dual JL's. Now I could have bought four SVS PB 12/2 for the price I paid for the two JL's..., would I have more output..., again the answer is yes, but the sound quality would not be as good. Where would I put all these SVS in my room? If my room was big enough to hold four SVS I would probably go with dual gothams. But then again I guess I could buy 18 dual SVS for that price..., joking :D ! Anyhow, what Im trying to say is how much output do you need? Dual JL's have way more output than I can use now. In fact a single JL would be plenty for my room. It bothers me when I see people say the SVS HSU is way better value. Because truth be told it's not..., at least not in my case. It all boils down to what you can afford. More is not always
better.

I compare it to this and am by no means rich. But, for the sake of argument If I could afford the most expensive Porsche say 500,000 and my yearly income was 5,000,0000. Would it be a better value for me to get say a 60,000 Corvette? The answer is no, would it be cheaper yes. But the fact of the matter is if I was making that type of income I could afford the Porsche. What value would mean to me, if I was making that much money, would be getting the 500,000 Porsche for 475,000. So you see when someone ask you what is the best value sub, or state that the SVS or HSU are a better value, it is very subjective. Before you can answer that question you must find out what someone's income, is how much money they have to spend etc. What is a value to me may not be a value to you, it's based on the indivdual.

I get what you guys are saying about the quality of the bass vs. SPL. So my question is still this, won't the DT sub just muddy up the higher quality bass from the Fathom if I try to use both?

I don't think you will know until you try them together. They could work together very well, or not. My fear would be that it might reinforce a frequency - ies that the ARO was trying to control. Which means you'll need some bass management for the DT. Like I said earlier, just seems like more trouble than it's worth.

FWIW, my f113 replaced an F1200 Velodyne (older servo unit). I had a DD-15 at home to audition along with the f113. The single f113 was so much better.

To me, it looks like JL has opened the door to a new chapter in speaker design, or at least first to market. That is, large diameter VC, long throw, linear, big motor, drivers. You have SVS with the new Ultra, TC Sounds and I'm sure others not far behind. And amplifier power. The f113 with 2500 watt's peak is more power than the Beatles or Stone's toured with in the 1960's.

The f113 is so good, and with the size of your room, I really don't think you will want for more. Good luck!

I personally dont think that you would benefit at all using the DT along with the JL. If you were using (2) F113's thats a different story. b curry mentions a great point in the fact that the DT could, and most likely will, render an advance part of the JL's game useless, the ARO. The combo will NOT improve sound quality and if it is SPL you are after, already the JL is has proven to be the standard setter there too. If I were you I'd sell the DT (should be easy), put the money towards the JL (or another JL) and save a little to buy your wife or girlfiend a nice Valentines Day gift. You'll be much better off all the way around!!

I get what you guys are saying about the quality of the bass vs. SPL. So my question is still this, won't the DT sub just muddy up the higher quality bass from the Fathom if I try to use both?

To muddy the f113,the Definitive would have to be of Sony WM40 quality(this is a POS if there ever was one).

TRY THEM,damn you will have both.

For example I run JL subs with Klipsch(RSW) subs,and Paradigm(Seismic,Servo) subs...no issues.

I run a Velo with a Revel...NO ISSUES. As long as the gap in quality is not Grand Canyon deep.I know this is not the purist way,and not audiophile approved but it may just work great.

I listen mostly to electronic music(shame on me)and as long as it hits hard like a Mack truck,there is no slop or colorations it A ok. :p

... and save a little to buy your wife or girlfiend a nice Valentines Day gift. You'll be much better off all the way around!!

Good advice from the KGB (now that the cold war is over they can give out good secrets!)

I personally wouldn't mix and match different subs. The idea for multiple subs in a room to help with bass smoothness requires that all subs are identical AFAIK.

Doesn't hurt to play around with them though and see what you prefer.

I had some movers deliver my home theatre chairs the other day. I asked them to move the Fathoms and my large Krell and centre-channel speaker. I particularly liked the look on their faces as they lifted the Fathom! ;) Deceptively heavy indeed.

The Bogg

Yeah, I think one awesome sub should be enough. It should be getting delivered today. I'm going to go ahead and list the DT to keep me from being tempted to start monkeying around with 2 subs.

Alright, got the BEAST today! You should have seen me carry that thing up the stairs to the second floor by myself! :eek: :eek:

Briefly turned it on and watched a couple of trailers with the volume pretty low on the receiver. My wife came upstairs and said, "the bathroom lights are shaking uncontrollably". :D
I did notice just in the brief low volume demo that you guys weren't lying when you said you will feel the bass instead of just hearing it.

I'll work on setting it up completely tomorrow. Can't wait to watch some of my favorite scenes.

Alright, got the BEAST today! You should have seen me carry that thing up the stairs to the second floor by myself! :eek: :eek:

Briefly turned it on and watched a couple of trailers with the volume pretty low on the receiver. My wife came upstairs and said, "the bathroom lights are shaking uncontrollably". :D
I did notice just in the brief low volume demo that you guys weren't lying when you said you will feel the bass instead of just hearing it.

I'll work on setting it up completely tomorrow. Can't wait to watch some of my favorite scenes.


He he,these "small" subs may be compact.As you can see and hear there is nothing small besides the physical size of the cabinet. AT 130lbs it is one nice chunk of sub and the quantity and quality of output....five star category. :)

Post your impressions,great to have more new owners of these beasts chip in and post.

Congradulations jacksonian!!! very excited to hear how it works out for you!

Need to audition these JL Audio Subwoofers--F112--F113 [/B]and soon the Gotham. We have these phenomenal Subs set up for demo in our showroom. Don't buy another sub till you hear these!

Where Are You Located

I have one question on setup. It looks like in the manual there are 2 ways to do it. One is setting the level to Reference and trying to match speaker levels with your receiver and then turning it to variable and running ARO. The second method was setting Level to Variable and using the receiver and sub volume to try to match the levels with the sub output close to zero in the receiver. Then running ARO.

I thought I had read here on the forum that the second option would be the better one. Is that correct?

Where can these subs be heard in the NYC area?

Jacksonian,

I have my JL's on variable,gain set to 12:00.Then set the gain in the pre/pro menu. You can as well leave it on full(fixed)and set the level from the pre/pro.

Jacksonian,

I have my JL's on variable,gain set to 12:00.Then set the gain in the pre/pro menu. You can as well leave it on full(fixed)and set the level from the pre/pro.
Thanks Ear,
That's what I needed to know. Going to set it up now.

And let me tell you, my back knows how heavy that puppy is today!

The Pioneer Elite 84Tx kept telling me my subwoofer level was too high when set at the 0 mark. I had to turn it down to between 9 oclock and 10 oclock to get it to do the auto MCACC.

Edit: Even after I turn it down to that level, it still ends up with a setting of -9dB in the channel level results for the sub.

I know you guys probably don't think the Auto MCACC setup on the Pioneer receiver is very accurate, but I don't have much else to go by.

Has anyone else encountered this problem? Could it be that I need to move the f113 out from the corner a little bit?

Jacksonian,

Yes I would move the f113 around 1 meter out of the corner,my Fathoms are around the one meter mark from the corner.Facing my listening chair.

As for the auto setup,I go by ear and what sounds best to me.Do the same,set it up the way that sounds most natural to you if you do not agree with what the auto setup sets the sub to.

Jacksonian,

I have my JL's on variable,gain set to 12:00.Then set the gain in the pre/pro menu. You can as well leave it on full(fixed)and set the level from the pre/pro.

The Variable Mode is used when controling the gain via the Fathom's Master Level control. When the Reference Mode is used, the Fathom's Master Level is disabled and the level is controled by the receiver/pre processor.

The Variable Mode is used when controling the gain via the Fathom's Master Level control. When the Reference Mode is used, the Fathom's Master Level is disabled and the level is controled by the receiver/pre processor.
Does it matter which direction the fathom is facing?

Does it matter which direction the fathom is facing?
Yes. If it is facing the floor, it won't sound as powerful. :)

Sorry. I couldn't resist.

Yes. If it is facing the floor, it won't sound as powerful. :)

Sorry. I couldn't resist.

You have to see the might and excursion on one of the most impressive woofers to get an extra Placebo boost. This EL Placebo brings an extra 6dB increase in imaginary output!

Jacksonian,

Nope,it could face sideways,the back wall.The deep bass will presurise the room.

Why not have the control panel visible,even after setup is done,you have a great looking panel in plain view. :p

I ran the ARO with my wife sitting beside me. She looked like she was in pain and afterwards said she could feel it vibrating in her spine. :eek: She must have been in a peak as it didn't bother me.

I didn't push the limits yet, but we watched the last 2 episodes of Rome as well as the Spiderman 3 trailer and it was VERY impressive. Very tight, but with a visceral impact I've never felt before. I could feel bass that I never knew was there before.

I don't have much experience with different subs, but all I can say is that the difference between the f113 and my old DefTech is NOT subtle, a very big improvement indeed. And there's no way I'll ever need more bass in that 2000 cu.ft. room!

You have to see the might and excursion on one of the most impressive woofers to get an extra Placebo boost. This EL Placebo brings an extra 6dB increase in imaginary output!

Yes, I've heard the imaginary component is very complex...

Can I get it in a finish that matches my wainscot molding?

Yes. I find that extra complex imaginary 6db boost halfway through a second bottle of old red wine. Tougher to find without it but I'll keep looking. :D

Yes. I find that extra complex imaginary 6db boost halfway through a second bottle of old red wine. Tougher to find without it but I'll keep looking. :D

Just switch to a complex number (a+bi) domain and you will find it soon enough :p

btw, complex imaginary is redundant :p

Just switch to a complex number (a+bi) domain and you will find it soon enough :p

btw, complex imaginary is redundant :p

Yup Jono, it certainly is. Just like the placebo 6db. ;)

Alright, got the BEAST today! You should have seen me carry that thing up the stairs to the second floor by myself! :eek: :eek:

Briefly turned it on and watched a couple of trailers with the volume pretty low on the receiver. My wife came upstairs and said, "the bathroom lights are shaking uncontrollably". :D
I did notice just in the brief low volume demo that you guys weren't lying when you said you will feel the bass instead of just hearing it.

I'll work on setting it up completely tomorrow. Can't wait to watch some of my favorite scenes.

Congratulations :D :D

Thanks,
I still need to play with the levels some more, I think I have it too loud, but boy, it sounds tight. I'm not used to being able to have bass that deep and loud while still sounding nice and tight.

With my old sub, I would turn it down because it didn't sound good at those levels, but the f113 sounds so good that it makes me want to keep the higher levels which I'm sure don't match my other speakers.

I've been lurking in this forum for awhile now, and have gone through this whole thread and the Seaton SubMersive1 thread. Anyone have any idea on when some lucky individual will have both subs in his house to do a shootout? I don't know whether the SubMersives are generally available yet...

I've been lurking in this forum for awhile now, and have gone through this whole thread and the Seaton SubMersive1 thread. Anyone have any idea on when some lucky individual will have both subs in his house to do a shootout? I don't know whether the SubMersives are generally available yet...
I considered the SubMersive also, but never got to hear one. All I can say is that for my 2000 cu. ft. room, anything MORE powerful than the f113 would scare me. And I mean literally scare me, like I'd be worried about the structural integrity of my home.

I have all my speakers set to small and the crossover @ 80Hz. As I said before, I think I have the sub volume too high. But it seemed like I could notice the directionality of the bass coming from the f113 last night watching Rome. I have the LF filter set to off and was letting the receiver handle that.

Is there anything else I need to adjust? Do I need to move the sub out some from the corner? Turn on the LF filter in the f113? Set the crossover @ 60Hz?

I'm guessing the volume is affecting it, but I would have thought that it wouldn't matter since I shouldn't be able to localize bass below 80Hz, right?

I think you're right. Part of my problem is that I'm keenly aware of my new baby in the corner. I may also be feeling the tactile effects now that I never have before. And it also rattles the windows on that side.

I may try moving it over to the other side away from the windows and see if that makes a difference.

I think you're right.

And it also rattles the windows on that side.

I may try moving it over to the other side away from the windows and see if that makes a difference.

:) That's not going to matter.

:) That's not going to matter.
Yeah, probably not, huh? :D This thing is unbelievably powerful for its size.

I have lived with dual F113’s for a couple of weeks now and have been through all of the normal demo fare (movies and music) with excellent results. I was essentially being ignored by the SO (Significant Other) as she has seen so much equipment come and go in the last several years that she has a hard time keeping track. I had begun to feel that dual subs may be unnecessary and that the extra SPL and tactile response was not worth the $ invested, so I was considering selling the second Fathom.

That night, the SO and I were watching Open Range (one of her favs) on the big screen at home and at the end of the movie she turned to me and said “my god, that is the first time I have ever felt like real gun shots were being fired in our room”. She described the concussion and ring of the shots and said the only thing missing was the smell of gun powder. I agreed and then mentioned that I was thinking of selling one of the Fathoms. She gave me a long stare and said “first you sell off the Monster (her term of endearment for the Velo DD-18) and tell me that what we really need is dual subs to fill the space. And now that we have perfect bass in the room, you’re going to sell one of these??? I just smiled and said no your right, the bass has never been better and I think I’ll keep them both.

This from a woman who has gone from being annoyed by the look of my Bose Cubes when I first met her, to now not minding four large and visible floor standers and two big (everything’s relative) subs stuck under end tables. Even though she has no interest in the specifics, she certainly enjoys the result of all of my spending and tweaking. From my standpoint, her appreciation is very gratifying.

Thanks to this site and all of you here that have helped me do this. It really can be a fun hobby.

I have lived with dual F113’s for a couple of weeks now and have been through all of the normal demo fare (movies and music) with excellent results. I was essentially being ignored by the SO (Significant Other) as she has seen so much equipment come and go in the last several years that she has a hard time keeping track. I had begun to feel that dual subs may be unnecessary and that the extra SPL and tactile response was not worth the $ invested, so I was considering selling the second Fathom.

That night, the SO and I were watching Open Range (one of her favs) on the big screen at home and at the end of the movie she turned to me and said “my god, that is the first time I have ever felt like real gun shots were being fired in our room”. She described the concussion and ring of the shots and said the only thing missing was the smell of gun powder. I agreed and then mentioned that I was thinking of selling one of the Fathoms. She gave me a long stare and said “first you sell off the Monster (her term of endearment for the Velo DD-18) and tell me that what we really need is dual subs to fill the space. And now that we have perfect bass in the room, you’re going to sell one of these??? I just smiled and said no your right, the bass has never been better and I think I’ll keep them both.

This from a woman who has gone from being annoyed by the look of my Bose Cubes when I first met her, to now not minding four large and visible floor standers and two big (everything’s relative) subs stuck under end tables. Even though she has no interest in the specifics, she certainly enjoys the result of all of my spending and tweaking. From my standpoint, her appreciation is very gratifying.

Thanks to this site and all of you here that have helped me do this. It really can be a fun hobby.

This gives us great hope for the rest of us married folks. :D

Thanks for this beautiful story.

This gives us great hope for the rest of us married folks. :D

Thanks for this beautiful story.
Yes, that was a tear-jerker. Someone should make that into a movie with Cuba Gooding, Jr. :D

Although, I think RMK! has a much bigger room than mine and I doubt I can sell my wife on a 2nd Fathom after she saw the light fixtures shaking uncontrollably with one at low volume.