I just got back from my my demo of the f113 and I must say that my friend and I are severely dissapointed.

This was an authorized dealer. The room was supposedly set up for the sub by the person who designed the sub.


I could see the woofer moving a good amount but I did not feel hardly any bass. It was almost fake sounding. I am just in shock. I expected to be wowed.

For what it's worth the guy was not very helpfull and lectured us about how movies were fake etc ( no kidding I thought they were all real) He would not play a deep bass movie or anything of the sort. I think it was Eric Clapton with a pair of Martin logan speakers with one f113. He actually though it was a f112.


I was all set to buy over the dd18 but now I dont know. I have no more dealers within a 100 mile radius. His price was $2850 plu tax and no budging ont he price even with cash in hand.

Can somebody explain to me the reasoning for pairing two dissimilar subs?

I read a white paper, a while back, that went into all the reason NOT to mix subs. I don't recall them all but the one that "stuck" was that because of the differences in frequency response the result was reinforcement on those frequencies both subs reproduced (or reproduced louder) and not on the ones that were more prevalent in one or the other sub.

Apparently a new discovery has been made and I am not aware of it.

Like all conventional wisdom it doesn't always apply in all real world situations. Such is the case with this one. Blending in FR is not as challenging as it may have been with the advent of more sophisticated equalization and display management of FR such as can be found in the SMS-1. The larger issue concerns matching phase between the subs and then between the subs and the mains.

I have had as many as five subs in my HT, with three of them being different models: SVS Ultra, Axiom EP 600s, EPA500s. What these models all shared was very similar tuning frequency (21-22hz) which made getting phase right less challenging. The other thing to strive for is using only subs with linear frequency response. The Ultra for example has humped response above 40-50hz so I did not use its output above 50hz before applying equalization.

Currently I have a DD-18 blended with an EP600 and its sounds fine with combined flat response across the band. It took a while of experimenting with placement and phase on each sub to get them matched proplerly. Here again the conventional wisdom is not matching sealed and vented subs while I believe the key is matching only very good subs with linear behaviour regardless of alignment.

Needless to say the onboard display on the DD-18 and the dedicated SMS display on the EP600 made it far easier to blend the two subs. If one were to combine a DD-18 with a JL113, I believe they would match well given their excellent linearity, sealed configuration and excellent extension. If I ever stop skiing that may be my next sub project. :cool:

I just got back from my my demo of the f113 and I must say that my friend and I are severely dissapointed.



Something was not right with the demo. That sub produces huge amounts of excellent sounding bass. I suggest you find another dealer to demo that sub.

I just got back from my my demo of the f113 and I must say that my friend and I are severely dissapointed.

This was an authorized dealer. The room was supposedly set up for the sub by the person who designed the sub.


I could see the woofer moving a good amount but I did not feel hardly any bass. It was almost fake sounding. I am just in shock. I expected to be wowed.

For what it's worth the guy was not very helpfull and lectured us about how movies were fake etc ( no kidding I thought they were all real) He would not play a deep bass movie or anything of the sort. I think it was Eric Clapton with a pair of Martin logan speakers with one f113. He actually though it was a f112.

I was all set to buy over the dd18 but now I dont know. I have no more dealers within a 100 mile radius. His price was $2850 plu tax and no budging ont he price even with cash in hand.

What material did he let you play if he wouldn't play a deep bass movie? I'm sorry that you had a bad experience.

I agree, find another store. Any of us F113 owners could be wrong, but we aren't all wrong. This is a helluva sub and will move you backwards.

Gene

I just got back from my my demo of the f113 and I must say that my friend and I are severely dissapointed.

This was an authorized dealer. The room was supposedly set up for the sub by the person who designed the sub.


I could see the woofer moving a good amount but I did not feel hardly any bass. It was almost fake sounding. I am just in shock. I expected to be wowed.

For what it's worth the guy was not very helpfull and lectured us about how movies were fake etc ( no kidding I thought they were all real) He would not play a deep bass movie or anything of the sort. I think it was Eric Clapton with a pair of Martin logan speakers with one f113. He actually though it was a f112.


I was all set to buy over the dd18 but now I dont know. I have no more dealers within a 100 mile radius. His price was $2850 plu tax and no budging ont he price even with cash in hand.
This sounds alot like my story - you don't perchance live in SoCal do you? (wondered if it was the same dealer). My auditions were less than stellar to down right bad.

Finally decided to gamble and trust the opinions of the many owners on this forum. My advise? Get it and don't look back - you will be happy. I won't knock the DD-18 ( I have an older Velodyne that I still love), but if space is even a slight issue, the size of the Fathom is an absolute tie breaker.

Sorry for going off topic.

I see many of you are able to find the Fathom f133 for around $2,500. Could you please PM me about where you bought it?

I want to find out if your dealer is willing to ship internationally. Currently I'm being quoted $3,200.

Back on topic.

I am not doubting the f113 is actually a great sub I know that something had to be wrong. It was almost as if the phase was off but I thought he would have noticed something wasn't right. It just would have been nice to come out with a more positive attitude.

I wish I could find another dealer to demo it but the jl search only goes to 100 miles and they are the only store listed. They have a few locations but only one of the stores actually had the fathom.

So basically I am going to have to trust all the great experiences and just order it and bring it home and hope for the best. They do not actually stock any of them though and the best I could do was $2850. I tried offering cash in hope they would at least discount it in the amount of his credit card fee but he basically said thats it take it or leave it.

So basically I am going to have to trust all the great experiences and just order it and bring it home and hope for the best.

That's what I did. The only unexpected surprise was the amount of rattle and shaking from the drywall and ducting in my basement! It's currently being redone.

You won't be disappointed with a properly working F113, just buy from an authorized dealer so you don't have any problems should any issues arise with it.
Might I suggest you let JL Audio know about your experience with the dealer in question.

Best of luck

Given the number of bad demos people are reporting, JL mind as well be an internet only supplier and cut the cost.

It didn't take much listening for me. I listened to a couple of cd's, and a few movie clips. I was impressed from the start when I demoed the f113.

Shepracing, if you notice this thread was started back in October. There were not any audio magazine's on the news stands giving rave reviews of the Fathoms six months ago. That large discount maybe a bit harder to come by at this time.

I doubt you'll be sorry if you bring one home.

An f113 will move enough air that it may have been a problem for the Martin-Logans, sympathetic vibrations of the ML's panels, especially if it was a smaller room.

Given the number of bad demos people are reporting, JL mind as well be an internet only supplier and cut the cost.
That is probably the worst idea ever. I hope you were kidding.

Given the number of bad demos people are reporting, JL mind as well be an internet only supplier and cut the cost.

Gosh, you can say that about a lot of subwoofers sold in B&M stores.

That is probably the worst idea ever. I hope you were kidding.

Why do you say that. Why is that a bad idea?

Shepracing, if you notice this thread was started back in October. There were not any audio magazine's on the news stands giving rave reviews of the Fathoms six months ago. That large discount maybe a bit harder to come by at this time.


I agree, its all about supply and demand. It seems that the F113 is pretty hot right now, so a good discount will be hard to find. $2850 is still 10% of MRSP, which isn't horrible.

I am not doubting the f113 is actually a great sub I know that something had to be wrong. It was almost as if the phase was off but I thought he would have noticed something wasn't right. It just would have been nice to come out with a more positive attitude.

I wish I could find another dealer to demo it but the jl search only goes to 100 miles and they are the only store listed. They have a few locations but only one of the stores actually had the fathom.

So basically I am going to have to trust all the great experiences and just order it and bring it home and hope for the best. They do not actually stock any of them though and the best I could do was $2850. I tried offering cash in hope they would at least discount it in the amount of his credit card fee but he basically said thats it take it or leave it.

As a matter of principle why buy stuff from dickheads? On the rare occasion I have to then its on my terms or I pass. I suggest you be patient and try to source one at a dealer who values your business.

As a matter of principle why buy stuff from dickheads?

Agree 100% :)

I am not doubting the f113 is actually a great sub I know that something had to be wrong. It was almost as if the phase was off but I thought he would have noticed something wasn't right. It just would have been nice to come out with a more positive attitude.

I wish I could find another dealer to demo it but the jl search only goes to 100 miles and they are the only store listed. They have a few locations but only one of the stores actually had the fathom.

So basically I am going to have to trust all the great experiences and just order it and bring it home and hope for the best. They do not actually stock any of them though and the best I could do was $2850. I tried offering cash in hope they would at least discount it in the amount of his credit card fee but he basically said thats it take it or leave it.


Do not buy from clowns that play tough.

With the f113 you do not need to hope it performs,it WILL perform and damn well.In any use,HT or music it is tops.

I almost never listen in demo rooms (since 3-4 years),I get the gear home and if it underperforms to my ears...comes back.performs the way I hoped or...better.It stays home,the JL Fathom subs are keepers,they bested my expectations by a longshot.

In the very end and what seriously counts is how it performs in your room.

I am/was willing to pay the $2850 or around there. What I am not willing to do is drive aimlessly around the country to find one. I do not expect to be able to simply return it if I dont like it because each one is a special order and takes around 2 weeks to get in.

I will most likely order it from the guy because I have no real choice when they have the no internet sales rule.

John, I was in the GTA two weeks ago and I didn't see any audio stores called Dickheads. It was sooo cold, they must have changed the name to Frozen Dickheads.

Here in Sac, our major audio store is called Peabrains. I understand the frustration with in store demos. When I was shopping last year, I couldn't get a decent demo. I went to a Velo specialty store, Magnolia, Paradyme, et al. Magnolia had the whole Def Tech line (sans Trinity) and a few M&Ks. The M&Ks weren't even hooked up and the Defs were very disappointing. I couldn't get the sales slug to demo for HT. He would only play Clapton DVD. I could barely hear the Defs (even the Ref). I tried again a couple weeks later and got the same experience, except the M&Ks were working. It was like they didn't want to wake the neighbors. If the OEMs knew how poorly some stores present their wares, many would probably go ID.

John, I was in the GTA two weeks ago and I didn't see any audio stores called Dickheads. It was sooo cold, they must have changed the name to Frozen Dickheads.

Here in Sac, our major audio store is called Peabrains.

If the OEMs knew how poorly some stores present their wares, many would probably go ID.

classic :D

Good one Randy. :D If your in the neighbourhood again and you have time look me up.

So basically I am going to have to trust all the great experiences and just order it and bring it home and hope for the best. They do not actually stock any of them though and the best I could do was $2850. I tried offering cash in hope they would at least discount it in the amount of his credit card fee but he basically said thats it take it or leave it.

Shep, sorry about your bad experience. Please drop me an e-mail at msmith@J L A U D I O. com with the particulars and I will look into it.

We care deeply about our customers' experiences with our dealers and in many cases have helped dealers better address their needs through training and conversation.

Best regards,

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.

Shep, sorry about your bad experience. Please drop me an e-mail at msmith@J L A U D I O. com with the particulars and I will look into it.

We care deeply about our customers' experiences with our dealers and in many cases have helped dealers better address their needs through training and conversation.

Best regards,

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.

Manville,

That is really cool!

Hi guys,

I'm new to the Forum, but after reading the many great comments of Fathom users, I ordered an F113 and set it up in my room last night. What a great sub! It replaced a pretty good Paradigm Servo-15 in my 24'x16'x9' home theater. All I can say is WOW!

It's amazing how much more tactile the Fathom is compared to the Paradigm, which has a larger driver and cabinet. As good as it was out of the box, the ARO calibration provided a MUCH more even and refined frequency response. I'm now going to take it to the next level by running it thru my Velodyne SMS-1, which has been sitting in it's box for over a month. I'm hoping one of the members of this forum can help me with first-hand experience in setting it up.

My HT room also serves as my 2-channel audio listening room. I've got 2 separate systems which share only the L/R speakers (I swap speaker cables) and subwoofer. I'm currently running both the sub output of my surround processor and the second output of my audio preamp thru 2 separate Paradigm X-30 crossover controllers to a DIY switchbox that allows me to select either HT or audio with a simple toggle switch. The switchbox output is connected to the Fathom. Using the X-30's allows me to set separate volume levels and crossover points for Home Theater and audio, while leaving the controls on the Fathom at a fixed position. If the SMS-1 will allow me to remove the X-30's, that would be a bonus.

If anyone can guide me thru the process of integrating the SMS-1, allowing me to use the Fathom for BOTH systems, I'd be extremely grateful. You can either send me a PM or post it here on the Forum for others to benefit from. If you need to walk me thru it on the phone, send me a PM and I'll provide my phone #.

I just want to say that I think the members of this Forum are as great as the F113. Your enthusiasm is contagious, and your combined knowledge is staggering. I'm even thinking of buying a second F113 based on Craig's experience. Like Craig, I'd have to stack them. The Fathom is so beautiful and small, it's one of the few subs that would actually be tolerated by my wife. JL Audio should be commended for making such a fulfilling and thrilling product.

That's what I did. The only unexpected surprise was the amount of rattle and shaking from the drywall and ducting in my basement! It's currently being redone.

You won't be disappointed with a properly working F113, just buy from an authorized dealer so you don't have any problems should any issues arise with it.
Might I suggest you let JL Audio know about your experience with the dealer in question.

Best of luck

Me too, after reading the Sound&Vision article I grew very curious, plugged in the f112 here, read all the positive comments ,and that there was a f113 asked a few question took the leap :eek: .It had to be better than my Sunfire sig eq.

Boy am I happy JL customer

Djoel

I just got back from my my demo of the f113 and I must say that my friend and I are severely dissapointed.

This was an authorized dealer. The room was supposedly set up for the sub by the person who designed the sub.


I could see the woofer moving a good amount but I did not feel hardly any bass. It was almost fake sounding. I am just in shock. I expected to be wowed.

For what it's worth the guy was not very helpfull and lectured us about how movies were fake etc ( no kidding I thought they were all real) He would not play a deep bass movie or anything of the sort. I think it was Eric Clapton with a pair of Martin logan speakers with one f113. He actually though it was a f112.


I was all set to buy over the dd18 but now I dont know. I have no more dealers within a 100 mile radius. His price was $2850 plu tax and no budging ont he price even with cash in hand.
Man i had the same experience myself :(. I went to demo it 2x at the same place and it did not wow me. I didn't feel the visceral bass people here talk about.

FWIW, my demo experience with the F113 did not overwhelm me. At the time, I didn't know if my expectations were too high, or if the subwoofer was just not properly calibrated.

I decided, however, to take a chance based upon the reviews of others... I have not been disappointed. With that said, it was VERY hard to pull the trigger, because my initial impressions were underwhelming.

FWIW, my demo experience with the F113 did not overwhelm me. At the time, I didn't know if my expectations were too high, or if the subwoofer was just not properly calibrated.

I decided, however, to take a chance based upon the reviews of others... I have not been disappointed. With that said, it was VERY hard to pull the trigger, because my initial impressions were underwhelming.
I'll second that as well. I demo'd the f113 at the store and it sounded pretty good, but I wasn't blown away. But when I got that baby home, BOOM! Don't know if they didn't have it setup well, or just that the demo material they had was poor or what.

And I'm definitely not justifying my purchase. There's no placebo effect with this thing, it's a monster.

Man i had the same experience myself :(. I went to demo it 2x at the same place and it did not wow me. I didn't feel the visceral bass people here talk about.

Most audio retailers I have ever visited over the years have had issues demoing subs. Often salespeople are not well versed in the product they are selling and just as often the sub has not been set up properly. Bad placement inside the showroom as well as crappy room acoustics compound the problem.

The best place to audition a sub outside of your own room is a friend's room. Passing judgement on this phenomenal sub based on an audio sub demo is not the way to go.

Most audio retailers I have ever visited over the years have had issues demoing subs. Often salespeople are not well versed in the product they are selling and just as often the sub has not been set up properly. Bad placement inside the showroom as well as crappy room acoustics compound the problem.

The best place to audition a sub outside of your own room is a friend's room. Passing judgement on this phenomenal sub based on an audio sub demo is not the way to go.

I agree with you, but this is a HIGH regarded store here locally and i was NOT impressed. Not enough to plunk down 3 g's on this thing.

I am looking for another place to demo. I asked this store if i can buy it and if it doens't satisfy me 100% could i bring it back and they said "NO"..

Hi Manville:

Any chance to buy F113 in Asia or in particular Hong Kong? Does it support 220V? Thanks.

Most audio retailers I have ever visited over the years have had issues demoing subs. Often salespeople are not well versed in the product they are selling and just as often the sub has not been set up properly. Bad placement inside the showroom as well as crappy room acoustics compound the problem.

The best place to audition a sub outside of your own room is a friend's room. Passing judgement on this phenomenal sub based on an audio sub demo is not the way to go.

John,

Did you get a chance to demo the f113s in your home theater? Do you see getting one (or a pair) in your near future??

Thanks to a few helpfull pms I ordered one from a dealer and was able to get it shipped. I am not sure if they are allowed to ship so I won't mention the place but they were very helpfull and pleasant to talk to. Should see it next week.

The base room is 12 x 20 x8 with an open back wall except for about 2 ft in the right rear corner. I have the def tech 7001s up frt and plan on putting the f113 in the right rear corner but I am not sure if that will be the ideal location.

If I put it there I will need roughly 30ft of cable. I plan on connecting my current cables together to test it then order the perfect length blue jeans cable. I'm still not sure if I want to do the wall plate route yet.

John,

Did you get a chance to demo the f113s in your home theater? Do you see getting one (or a pair) in your near future??

I heard a pair in the Boggs HT for a couple of hours using a variety of material and was very impressed. I currently have a DD-18 and a EP600 in my HT and I at some point i may swap the ep600 for either another Velo or a FL113. Though my current setup is performing very well right now. :)

I hate to play devil's advocate here but it seems as though JL's goals expressed here. JL Internet Sales (http://home.jlaudio.com/jlaudio_pages.php?page_id=10) Are not being realized for the common buyer. I too am looking at buying one of these subs but as others have stated it will be very hard to throw down that much money if the demo doesn't hit me in the chest! A good subwoofer demo is very fun and makes you excited for the purchase and thats what I would expect from this unit. The two dealers in my area are custom installers and will not even respond to email asking if they have a room for demoing :confused: :(

Brady84,

In the next few months, a sub is coming out that will likely be serious competition for the F113 and it will be internet only. The last I heard is that it'll be priced at $2K. We'll see how things shake out once they're both readily available. As an early adopter of the F113, its reasonable to expect to pay a premium, but this doesn't go on indefinately.

Don't want to derail the thread but I too am awaiting the ultimate f113 Vs. BMF-1 Shootout!

Having either of the subs to compliment my RS1000's might get me evicted from my townhome :D

Good points made here and JL needs to ensure that their dealers are properly demonstrating the products. JL has an immature Home Audio distribution channel. It seems that the first dealers to step to the plate are JL car audio dealers and custom installers neither of which generally speaking, have nice demo facilities.

As “higher end” home audio dealers take on the JL line there will be an increase in the number of quality demos available. Until then, it will be catch as catch can as far as a good quality JL sub demos.

I think the attention paid to JL Home Audio products by this and other Forums and the business it has generated for the Fathom line has pleasantly surprised JL Audio (me thinks they owe some advertising dollars to Mr. Bott).

IMO, it would be wise for JL to provide their current dealers low cost designated demo units that can be placed (at no obligation) in the customer’s home. This would allow for a true test of the subs capability in the only environment that really matters, the home where it will actually live.

I hate to play devil's advocate here but it seems as though JL's goals expressed here. JL Internet Sales (http://home.jlaudio.com/jlaudio_pages.php?page_id=10) :(...

JL is very serious about their authorized dealership policy. I know this from my dealings with them concerning their automobile audio equipment. Their costumer service is top notch for those who purchased from A-D's.

I think this and other forums interest in their product and the business it has generated for the Fathom line has pleasantly surprised JL Audio (me thinks they owe some advertising dollars to Mr. Bott).
.
Good point. It would make great business sense for JL Audio to place an advertisement at AVS to acknowledge the contibution this site and its members have made to JL's success.

Some companies not worth naming take the view that they are free to benefit from AVS without placing an ad. If AVS was a charitable foundation , I can understand however that's not the case.

This site relies on advertising revenues to thrive and continue as a valuable resource for its members .
In keeping with JLs high quality brand image I'd also urge JL to place an advertisement alongside the other classy companies.

Good points made here and JL needs to ensure that their dealers are properly demonstrating the products. JL has an immature Home Audio distribution channel. It seems that the first dealers to step to the plate are JL car audio dealers and custom installers neither of which generally speaking, have nice demo facilities.

As “higher end” home audio dealers take on the JL line there will be an increase in the number of quality demos available. Until then, it will be catch as catch can as far as a good quality JL sub demos.

We have many extremely experienced home audio dealers selling our products and most of them are doing a very good job in providing demos. There have been many posts on this thread indicating that people have received compelling and revealing demos from their local dealers.

We do not give any priority to JL Audio car audio dealers in becoming home audio dealers... each potential home account is reviewed on its own merits and by different people than those responsible for the mobile audio side of our business.

I understand that, in some cases, demos have been underwhelming and as I stated earlier we very much want to hear from you when that occurs so that we can try and work with the dealer to improve this.

It is true that some of our dealers are custom installers who do not have demo facilities. This is a fact of life in today's high-end home theater world. I will say that some of these custom installers are willing to set up in-home demos for serious customers, but not all of them are. There are some markets where we don't yet have distribution and we are working on this very hard, but always with a focus on getting really good dealers not just any dealer.

Best regards,

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.

I will certainly take your comments on advertising within avsforum under advisement. :) I have already exchanged e-mails with Mr. Bott about it, so you may see something soon.

It makes little sense to advertise until you have enough production capacity to fulfill additional demand... now that this is starting to happen you will certainly see some advertising from JL Audio in several different channels.

I owe RMK an apology for the manner in which I responded in post 1543. After exchanging PM's with RMK, I now realize that I misinterpreted what he was saying and I reacted defensively with words that can be read as if I was calling him a liar. I do apologize for this as this was certainly NOT what I was trying to convey.

I will edit the post in question to prevent any further misunderstanding.

Best regards,

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.

I owe RMK an apology for the manner in which I responded in post 1543. After exchanging PM's with RMK, I now realize that I misinterpreted what he was saying and I reacted defensively with words that can be read as if I was calling him a liar. I do apologize for this as this was certainly NOT what I was trying to convey.

I will edit the post in question to prevent any further misunderstanding.

Best regards,

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.

No problem here, as long as you agree to sell me a Gotham at cost, all will be forgiven. :D

Don't want to derail the thread but I too am awaiting the ultimate f113 Vs. BMF-1 Shootout!

Having either of the subs to compliment my RS1000's might get me evicted from my townhome :D

The BMF will not best the f113 in sound quality,even before hearing a BMF I can say this.Could be close in the best case.

The BMF will outdisplace the f113 and play LOUDER.This is a given,the design uses three 18 inch PRs,even with a mere 1.5 inch peak to peak per PR it takes an easy lead. ;)

Just watch the tests. As soon as the BMF is out,I am ordering one. Better be good.Damn so many subs to buy.... :( One day my place will collapse. :o

TheEAR,
Although it's all speculation at this time... How can you make a statment like that regarding the BMF not sounding as good as the F113?

Don't want to derail the thread but I too am awaiting the ultimate f113 Vs. BMF-1 Shootout!



Throw in the submersive and DD18, and we're talking about one hell of a shootout. :)

Have any of you hooked up the Fathom by splitting the input cable so that both the left and right channels get a signal?

Any advantages? Any drawbacks?

I believe the channels are summed. So a single input split has no advantage.

TheEAR,
Although it's all speculation at this time... How can you make a statment like that regarding the BMF not sounding as good as the F113?

Without derailing the thread to a sealed versus ported debate, I think it boils down to whether or not one believes that an optimally designed sealed sub will have better sound quality than an optimally designed ported or passive radiator subwoofer. There seems to be some controversy over this. I still haven't made up my mind about this as I have not had enough experience with both designs. It will be an interesting comparison to say the least. I have the Fathom, but I am contemplating (okay, I'm trying to convice the wife:)) to get the BMF-1 to hear for myself.

One thing my wife and I love about the Fathom is the small enclosure.

Fathom f113 owners. I listened to the f113 yesteday and I was very impressed. I own a Danley DTS-20 right now and I should say the sound quality is in par with the DTS-20. I posted a more elaborate impression and some more details in another thread. The SPL was fantastic for the most part but on certain bass heavy sustained material like the Darla Scene in Finding Nemo, the f113 could not go beyond a certain point (108dB at LP). There were other scenes like the exploding THX ball, Monster's Inc and the Incredibles where the f113 shined and was breath-taking to say the least. If 2 of these units can match the performance of a DTS-20, I am all for it considering the size. In terms of SPL it would require 4 f113s to match the DTS-20 at 20Hz. But honestly I don't need that much. I will be fine with just 2. Main motivation to move to a different sub is the size. I can get 3 of the HSU 3.3 with turbos for the same price as a single f113 and I am ok with the extra floor space the 3.3s would occupy. However, the SQ is not going to be in the league of the f113. So here is where I am. I want to buy 1 or 2 of the f113s. I've been offered a price by the dealer and my offer is lower than his (about $150). But this is for a single unit. For 2 units, the difference gets larger and it starts to go way beyond my budget. If only the dealer would budge a bit, I would pull the trigger. Here is where I need your help. I don't want to pay more than I should. If I can have some idea on how much people are paying, I will know what a fair price is. Some say, they paid close to $2K. What the dealer is willing to sell it for is not even close to that price. Please help me by sending me a PM quoting what you paid for your f113. Posting a price here I believe is against forum rules, so I ask that you send me a PM. This will help me decide. With competion being so good, there are several options open at the prices we are talking about (example trio HSU 3.3 w/turbo, quartet HSU 3.2, Single Submersive1, BMF, Trio SVS 16-46 PC+, ACI Maestros, etc etc).
Thanks in advance. Will look forward for your PMs.
-Jai

I was initially kind of ticked off with my FR after getting the Fathom, then placing it where, in theory, I should have a fairly decent response. I ended up with a nasty, large null in the 40-60 Hz range. I was using the 1/3, 1/5, 1/7 speaker placement theory (I guess it's a theory).

Moved it to the corner, stacked it atop my Velodyne, and took some VERY preliminary measurements (no EQ, no ARO).

D@MN!!! + or - 3 db at all the frequencies on my test CD, and a HUGE increase in perceived SPL on War of the Worlds. I didn't measure it yet, but I think everything was shaking about the same, but now I was at -12 on the master volume, whereas before I was at -6.

Purhased the Soundblaster Live USB and downloaded REW. I'll try to see if I can figure out how to hook it up and use it to get some better measurements.

This just may work!! :) :cool:

Fathom f113 owners. I listened to the f113 yesteday and I was very impressed....Thanks in advance. Will look forward for your PMs.
-Jai

PM posted.

I was initially kind of ticked off with my FR after getting the Fathom, then placing it where, in theory, I should have a fairly decent response. I ended up with a nasty, large null in the 40-60 Hz range. I was using the 1/3, 1/5, 1/7 speaker placement theory (I guess it's a theory).

Moved it to the corner, stacked it atop my Velodyne, and took some VERY preliminary measurements (no EQ, no ARO).

D@MN!!! + or - 3 db at all the frequencies on my test CD, and a HUGE increase in perceived SPL on War of the Worlds. I didn't measure it yet, but I think everything was shaking about the same, but now I was at -12 on the master volume, whereas before I was at -6.

Purhased the Soundblaster Live USB and downloaded REW. I'll try to see if I can figure out how to hook it up and use it to get some better measurements.

This just may work!! :) :cool:

Getting the sub off of the floor to stop excitation of the height based room mode probably helped immensely!

Without derailing the thread to a sealed versus ported debate, I think it boils down to whether or not one believes that an optimally designed sealed sub will have better sound quality than an optimally designed ported or passive radiator subwoofer. There seems to be some controversy over this. I still haven't made up my mind about this as I have not had enough experience with both designs. It will be an interesting comparison to say the least. I have the Fathom, but I am contemplating (okay, I'm trying to convice the wife:)) to get the BMF-1 to hear for myself.

One thing my wife and I love about the Fathom is the small enclosure.

Let me chime in about my experience. Just switched over from twin SVS 16-46 CS-Plus's to single JL 113. Same spot in the room.

So far I have not been able to hear any difference (good). I switched over for aesthetic reasons and have not pushed the JL to its limits. But sound quality wise, I can't tell. Whether this disproves the sealed vs port differences issue, I'll leave it up for others. I am just posting my expereince.

Getting the sub off of the floor to stop excitation of the height based room mode probably helped immensely!
Agreed. This is absolutely the easiest, cheapest and effective subwoofer tweak particularly if you have a concrete floor. A simple Aurelex platform or subdude can help flatten a node or dampen resonance on a wood floor.

Agreed. This is absolutely the easiest, cheapest and effective subwoofer tweak particularly if you have a concrete floor. A simple Aurelex platform or subdude can help flatten a node or dampen resonance on a wood floor.

John and others,
Wouldn't you have to raise the sub a few feet to get away from the height based room mode??

John and others,
Wouldn't you have to raise the sub a few feet to get away from the height based room mode??

Depends on your room. :) Sometimes a few inches above the floor can make a difference just like moving a sub a few inches along a wall, other times you need a few feet . In my room with a carpet covered concrete floor it helped lift a null a few db and reduce a peak slightly. For those with a wood floor, perhaps the biggest benefit in lifting the sub is in islolating the effect of the floor resonance. Not many people would place their sub directly against a wall, same idea with the floor. For $60 an aurelex gramma or sub-dude is a no-brainer.

Getting the sub off of the floor to stop excitation of the height based room mode probably helped immensely!
Well............In this instance, that turns out not to be the case.

I already had tried stacking the f113 on top, and obtained virtually the same numbers. This was stictly do to the repositioning to the corner.

I have noticed one thing that I have to work on though. I watched the first hour or so of Serenity. I'm not familiar with the soundtrack, so it could be the DVD BUT.....

It seems like the notes (somewhere around the upper 20's to low 30's I think) tend to go to a single note. I'm guessing that this is the room node across the front wall of my listening room. It seems "bloated" and "boomy". I'll try the ARO and see what happens.

How in the world are you guys moving this thing hither and tither. It's all I can do to budge it a few inches, let alone lift it off the ground. :rolleyes:

Well............In this instance, that turns out not to be the case.

I already had tried stacking the f113 on top, and obtained virtually the same numbers. This was stictly do to the repositioning to the corner.

I have noticed one thing that I have to work on though. I watched the first hour or so of Serenity. I'm not familiar with the soundtrack, so it could be the DVD BUT.....

It seems like the notes (somewhere around the upper 20's to low 30's I think) tend to go to a single note. I'm guessing that this is the room node across the front wall of my listening room. It seems "bloated" and "boomy". I'll try the ARO and see what happens.

The bloated/boomy is probably due to putting it in corner.

How in the world are you guys moving this thing hither and tither. It's all I can do to budge it a few inches, let alone lift it off the ground. :rolleyes:


Got his wife to help. :D

Got his wife to help. :D
D@mn Straight!!!!! :)

The bloated/boomy is probably due to putting it in corner.
Yeah, I know that, now I got to straighten it out (I hope, I hope, I hope). :D

How in the world are you guys moving this thing hither and tither. It's all I can do to budge it a few inches, let alone lift it off the ground. :rolleyes:

I've been sliding the Fathom on my Subdude...

However, it still isn't easy, and I have a hernia to prove it. :eek: :D

If you want to move Fathoms around, I suggest you purchase some furniture sliding discs like these:
http://www.homeandbeyond.com/prod-0103838.html

They rock.

I dunno. Getting optimal sub placement has health as well as acoustical benefits. Pumping subs is a bit like pumping iron, and it saves a trip to the gym. No discs for this guy. :D

If you want to move Fathoms around, I suggest you purchase some furniture sliding discs like these:
http://www.homeandbeyond.com/prod-0103838.html

They rock.


That's a great idea Msmith, I have a few of those disc...Just need to turn the apt. upside down..But still the grolling task of lifting this beast ,and trying to slide them in place....Oh I got a car jack :D


Djoel

Ive been lurking around this forum long enough. Currently I have a Velodyne DD 12 in my home theater and after reading the Absolute Sound review the Fathom F113 sounds like the best thing sense sliced bread.

My local dealer doesnt have a good demo room, and if I cant demo it first then I think its fair to get a better price right?

Not sure if I should post this in the audio setup thread, BUT..........

Reagrding my issue with boomy bass, a thought occurred to me, now I can't figure out if I have a problem that I can't work around very easily.

My HT is set up in a bedroom, and the right side wall (looking at the screen) is the closet, complete with sliding doors. Yes, they vibrate a bit, but I seem to have gotten used to it. My question is, how do I take this into account as far as room dimensions/nodes?

When is a wall a wall? (I know this sounds kinda stupid). The closet door begins about 20" from the front of the room, the closet opening is 4' wide, and it is 28" deep.

I believe that the previous positioning of the sub/subs minimized the problem of the closet, but placing the subs in the corner brings it into play. Does the bass produced by the subs "see" this closet as a port? (thinking IB). I don't know enough about acoustics for this one.

I'm afraid I'm SOL on this one. :mad:

Any ideas?

John Schneider,

First things first, eliminate the rattle.

Not sure if I should post this in the audio setup thread, BUT..........

Reagrding my issue with boomy bass, a thought occurred to me, now I can't figure out if I have a problem that I can't work around very easily.

My HT is set up in a bedroom, and the right side wall (looking at the screen) is the closet, complete with sliding doors. Yes, they vibrate a bit, but I seem to have gotten used to it. My question is, how do I take this into account as far as room dimensions/nodes?

When is a wall a wall? (I know this sounds kinda stupid). The closet door begins about 20" from the front of the room, the closet opening is 4' wide, and it is 28" deep.

I believe that the previous positioning of the sub/subs minimized the problem of the closet, but placing the subs in the corner brings it into play. Does the bass produced by the subs "see" this closet as a port? (thinking IB). I don't know enough about acoustics for this one.

I'm afraid I'm SOL on this one. :mad:

Any ideas?

I have a similar, if not identical, situation you have. A wall needs to be fairly rigid to act as a barrier. In my case the closet has folding doors that are very light (and hollow) and extend the whole length of the closet but only half the height of the 14' ceiling.

Opening and closing my doors did not appear to change the resonant nodes in my room so it appears, in my case, that they do not act as a "wall".

Your case might be different. In any event the closet will not be a "port" (as in a ported baffle). Hope this helps somewhat.

John Schneider,

First things first, eliminate the rattle.
I'm gonna try, but most of the rattles are in my HVAC, and there is virtually no access to them. I can put a seal around the vent and the return, then tighten them down. The ducts are a different story - not even sure what I would use to coat them, and I don't think tightening the straps would do much good.

As far as removing the closet sliding doors, I might be able to, but there MIGHT be a problem with my SO.

I'm gonna try, but most of the rattles are in my HVAC, and there is virtually no access to them. I can put a seal around the vent and the return, then tighten them down. The ducts are a different story - not even sure what I would use to coat them, and I don't think tightening the straps would do much good.

As far as removing the closet sliding doors, I might be able to, but there MIGHT be a problem with my SO.

You'll probably find that the rattles in the hvac etc will mess up the ARO...that's exactly what happened in my room. With ARO you end up with slightly bloated bass because it "thinks" that there is a bit of a bass null at the frequency that the ducts are vibrating at. This is one of the instances in which the SMS might be better. I just moved things around a bit and found improvement with small adjustments in woofer position.

Then I went whole-hog and had the ducts moved - not a job for the meek!

I would just suggest you try different, acceptable, positions. One way is like they suggest on Audioholics by putting the sub at the listening position and moving the microphone around to different locations that might work.

good luck!

You'll probably find that the rattles in the hvac etc will mess up the ARO...that's exactly what happened in my room. With ARO you end up with slightly bloated bass because it "thinks" that there is a bit of a bass null at the frequency that the ducts are vibrating at. This is one of the instances in which the SMS might be better. I just moved things around a bit and found improvement with small adjustments in woofer position.

Then I went whole-hog and had the ducts moved - not a job for the meek!

I would just suggest you try different, acceptable, positions. One way is like they suggest on Audioholics by putting the sub at the listening position and moving the microphone around to different locations that might work.

good luck!
I'm limited (WAF) in locations for the subss. I will be able to move them about 16-18" from the closet wall, so I'll be about 40" from the solid wall. Other than that, I have LOTS of furniture to move to try other locations.

The thought of stacking a Fathom AND a 15" Velo on top of my powered recliner seems like a real pain in the @$$ (assuming I want them at ear height).

Don't think I even have a possibility of moving the ducts - I have a really weird setup in this part of the house.

I just got a fathom 113 last week... i read some things about the aurelax gramma pads and picked one up for 50 bux just to try one out... i have hard wood floors...

i compared the tripod emerging scene from WOTW and before my floor would vibrate a little but i thought that was kinda cool because it seemed like the tripods where under the house and getting ready to come up... now with that pad it seems not to do it at all or not so much...

i was just wandering what owners of a fathom 113 or 112 do... what they think about using the pads... thanks

I'm gonna try, but most of the rattles are in my HVAC, and there is virtually no access to them. I can put a seal around the vent and the return, then tighten them down. The ducts are a different story - not even sure what I would use to coat them, and I don't think tightening the straps would do much good.

As far as removing the closet sliding doors, I might be able to, but there MIGHT be a problem with my SO.

Removing all sources of rattles, noise and unwanted resonance in the room is a time consuming task but I look at all those things as sound quality killers. This may not be possible in your situation but a simple HVAC fix for me was to stuff the vents with heating insulation and then I glued the registers shut. I have a window for cooling and ventilation and rely on the many amps in my HT for heat. In the summer our basement HT remains cool. I ran the Avia sweeps at length to find sources of rattle and methodically eliminated them.

Heavy mirrored sliding doors vibrate less and the ladies like them for vanity reasons.

Heavy mirrored sliding doors vibrate less and the ladies like them for vanity reasons.Yeah but they reflect sounds as well as they do light. :rolleyes:

Hope this works

This is a PDF of my listening area, which was originally the master BR in an upstairs loft. The area behind the couch opens to the lower area. The listening room has a cathedral ceiling. The closet has mirrored sliding doors. Projector is on south side, screen on north wall. Powerpoints to the sides of the recliners and either side of the projector.

I originally had the subs in area "A" side-by-side, then stacked. I now have them stacked at "B", and will try them at location "C". The HVAC for this floor is above the closet, and virtually inaccessible. It's too hot in the summer and too cold in the winter to completely do without HVAC.

There are other pieces of furniture in the room, but I left them out for clarity. I have a small bookcase that goes against the north wall wherever the subs are NOT located, in addition to some lights. The couch is on a homemade riser about 10" high. This runs up against the computer desk on the west wall. The computer desk weighs several hundred pounds (solid wood with a hutch). My wife has put up with alot, but theres no way in heck that's geting moved.

Hopefully location "C" gets rid of some of the boominess, and I can compensate with EQ/ARO for the rest.

Right click on attachment and "open" seems to work (this is my first attachment)

Frockc, I have SubDudes under both of my F113s. Actually haven't heard the Fathoms without them, but they improved the sound of my SVS subs before.

Gene

do u have wood floor nethomas??? my sub is just in my living room setup...

John,

I'd suggest moving the subs back to position "A". If possible, add accoustical treatment over the mirrored closet as you're likely to be having issues at this first reflection point.

P.S. Nice diagram. Which program did you use to make it??

I've been sliding the Fathom on my Subdude...

However, it still isn't easy, and I have a hernia to prove it. :eek: :D


Since the fathom f113 is 19.75 in x 16.50 in. x 19.25 in.

Did you guys use one subdude or two of the 15x15 size?

Im contemplating getting the larger one (great gamma) which is 19x30... instead of two small subdudes....

Yeah but they reflect sounds as well as they do light. :rolleyes:

Its a bedroom firstly remember, not an HT or listening room. Believe it or not women want mirrors in bedrooms. A rattling door is much worse. :rolleyes:

For folks who have dual f113s, do you stack them up one on top of the other or do you place them side by side when co-located? If you stack them, do you put any padding between the two? Also, similar to earlier questions, what type of isolator should I buy for the f113 and while stacking duals a smaller isolator that does not completely cover the footprint of the f113 can make it unstable.
Thanks,
-Jai

i have the gramma which is 23x15 and it fits... but i think i might stop using it... msmith_jl said the ruber feet are there to provide the right amount of dampening...

How long are the stock power cords?

i have the gramma which is 23x15 and it fits... but i think i might stop using it... msmith_jl said the ruber feet are there to provide the right amount of dampening...

All sub makers say that. If you don't hear any resonance from the wood floor you are fine, otherwise you need to isolate the sub. Many people use grammas or subdudes for that reason. Then again if you like the feel of vibrating wood floors...

Based on how cheap they are, I use them with all my subs.

How long are the stock power cords?

6 feet. They are standard OSHA cords so you can change it to fit.

6 feet. They are standard OSHA cords so you can change it to fit.
Thanks for the power cord info John? Do you know what guage it is (12awg, 14awg??). With 2500 watts it could suck some pretty huge power. Wouldn't each f113 require it's own 20A dedicated circuit? Even with 20A it peaks at 120x20 =2400Watts. I have 2 dedicated 20A circuit outlets but they will be 12 ft away from the subs. I would need 2 power cords that are 12 ft long. Good thick well shielded ones can get expensive.
I have a PS-Audio juice bar with a 10AWG 6ft teflon shielded power cord from b-p-t. Using this I can split the single 20A outlet into several (using the juice bar). The juice bar will be close enough for the stock power cords to reach. But this method would give only 20A x 120v = 2400 watts. Wouldn't this limit the performance of the dual f113s during the most intense bass scenes?
Any thoughts would help.
Thanks,
-Jai

i have the gramma which is 23x15 and it fits... but i think i might stop using it... msmith_jl said the ruber feet are there to provide the right amount of dampening...


I agree with Mr. Smith but mine are on carpet over slab. I find the shaking floor is a very desirable effect. I also don't mind a few sympathetic vibrations. The scenes are usually so intense that I don't really notice. I do notice these during sine wave sweeps but I'm not playing those much anymore. :)

yea for 50 buxs i gave it a shot... i just tried the tripod emerging scene with both the gramma pad and non gramma pad... i like it without although itz not a huge noticable diff either way i like that it feels a little more real with it just on the wood floor...

also in that scene when the tripod emerges and slams down on the car in front of cruise i am pushing the sub pretty hard at like -12~-11MV sub calbrated to 75dB at 0MV i can't tell if itz farting(bottoming out a little) don't know how to describe it... i'm not sure itz not like a really vibrating sound i'm just really unsure if that is just a note playing i'm not used to hearing with my old sub or bottoming out... my living is open to my kitchen and dinning room on my first floor town home and stairs open to the upstairs of the room... my sub is located in the front left corner which seemed to give the best response out of the 4 places i tried... so maybe itz just to much open space....

yea for 50 buxs i gave it a shot... i just tried the tripod emerging scene with both the gramma pad and non gramma pad... i like it without although itz not a huge noticable diff either way i like that it feels a little more real with it just on the wood floor...

also in that scene when the tripod emerges and slams down on the car in front of cruise i am pushing the sub pretty hard at like -12~-11MV sub calbrated to 75dB at 0MV i can't tell if itz farting(bottoming out a little) don't know how to describe it... i'm not sure itz not like a really vibrating sound i'm just really unsure if that is just a note playing i'm not used to hearing with my old sub or bottoming out... my living is open to my kitchen and dinning room on my first floor town home and stairs open to the upstairs of the room... my sub is located in the front left corner which seemed to give the best response out of the 4 places i tried... so maybe itz just to much open space....


That is very strange. I have played that scene many times with single and now dual F113's and never had anything but a clean BIG boom and shake. Also my space is 8,000cf open to much more, so I don't think open space is the issue.

Originally Posted by John F. Palacio
6 feet. They are standard OSHA cords so you can change it to fit.

Do you mean detachable IEC-type as OSHA is the Occupational Safety and Health Administration?

i may just be noticing something now that i didn't notice before... i just might not be used to such detail from a sub... i actually just got off the phone with one of the JL engineers and since i really only notice it from up close next to the sub he thinks it might just be some suspension noise since its such a high excursion sub... it may just be something else rattling in the

i know itz diff not bottoming out because that would be more of a metal sound...

rmk could u try playing the end scene from pulse if u have it... and tell me how that scene sounds when u really push it...

Originally Posted by jmcomp124
Thanks for the power cord info John? Do you know what guage it is (12awg, 14awg??). With 2500 watts it could suck some pretty huge power. Wouldn't each f113 require it's own 20A dedicated circuit? Even with 20A it peaks at 120x20 =2400Watts. I have 2 dedicated 20A circuit outlets but they will be 12 ft away from the subs. I would need 2 power cords that are 12 ft long. Good thick well shielded ones can get expensive.
I have a PS-Audio juice bar with a 10AWG 6ft teflon shielded power cord from b-p-t. Using this I can split the single 20A outlet into several (using the juice bar). The juice bar will be close enough for the stock power cords to reach. But this method would give only 20A x 120v = 2400 watts. Wouldn't this limit the performance of the dual f113s during the most intense bass scenes?
Any thoughts would help.
Thanks,
-Jai
It's a long thread but its been covered before near the front end . The cord is 12 AGW I believe. A single 15A circuit is ok for one. Check post #'s 733 and 745.

It's a long thread but its been covered before near the front end . The cord is 12 AGW I believe. A single 15A circuit is ok for one. Check post #'s 733 and 745.
Thanks a lot. Answer's clear. If I have 2 20A circuits use both and get longer power cords if need be.

well i replayed the pulse scene and really pushed it... i put it up to -5MV and 0MV and i really think it was bottoming out... it made a kinda of tapping sound very noticable from my listening position... not sure if that is normal because itz just getting pushed to hard or maybe the sub is defective???

Frockc:

Would you characterize the level at which it is happening as a realistic listening level or are you pushing it to the limits just to see what happens?

If you back the level down by 2 dB does the noise still happen? 1dB?

It is possible to run a Fathom into limits that sound like what you're describing, but I can assure you that the woofer is not bottoming. Bottoming out that driver requires way more power than the f113 has in that enclosure and sounds like a gunshot when it happens (very loud).

ok well maybe itz not bottoming out... but it just doesn't sound normal... i played it at about -7MV or -8MV and watched the sub... then i pushed it up to about -5MV and the noise starts to happen slightly... by slightly i mean it makes the sound as the cone is traveling kinda at the end not throughout the whole cone travel... when i push it to -3MV or 0MV then itz like the sound happens through out the cone travel...

i was watching the JL symbol and it doesn't seem to be hitting max exursion of 4 inchs during this...

i would normally watch the movie around -10MV... i think i have heard this noise in some other movies but never pushed the sub harder in those movies...

ok well maybe itz not bottoming out... but it just doesn't sound normal... i played it at about -7MV or -8MV and watched the sub... then i pushed it up to about -5MV and the noise starts to happen slightly... by slightly i mean it makes the sound as the cone is traveling kinda at the end not throughout the whole cone travel... when i push it to -3MV or 0MV then itz like the sound happens through out the cone travel...

i was watching the JL symbol and it doesn't seem to be hitting max exursion of 4 inchs during this...

i would normally watch the movie around -10MV... i think i have heard this noise in some other movies but never pushed the sub harder in those movies...
Can you describe what exactly this noise sounds like? Buzzz, thud, knock??

the noise is just much higher then the low sounds that are coming from the sub... i'd call it a tapping kinda sound... itz constant when up at those higher volumes... i tried it with finding nemo darla sound and that sound really isn't there.... i don't know if itz just the much lower freq of pulse or what... but itz very easy to hear on pulse...

i can just say it doesn't seem normal and itz not there when the volume is a few dbs lower...

Are there any curtains, loose paper etc around the sub? During the demo, the sub was pushing so much air that a curtain got sucked in front and there was a rapid whirring sound. It was dark so I thought it bottomed out or something for a second and it happened to be the curtain. It could also be something else taking off in the room.

You may want to turn off all your other speakers if you have not already done so. Have another person in the room who can also listen for it and try repeating the test. Try to find out if it is indeed coming from the sub. Moving it away from the primary location will help you identify if the sound also has moved with the sub. If this noise is > 100Hz, you will be able to isolate it.

Do you mean detachable IEC-type as OSHA is the Occupational Safety and Health Administration?

Yes. They are abreviated to OSHA cords for simplicity.

i'm pretty sure itz coming from the sub... i mean it could almost be the sub distoring... i heard it from my listening position and then when i walk up right next to it i can tell itz coming from the sub... anyone have pulse that could try???

Thanks for the power cord info John? Do you know what guage it is (12awg, 14awg??). With 2500 watts it could suck some pretty huge power. Wouldn't each f113 require it's own 20A dedicated circuit? Even with 20A it peaks at 120x20 =2400Watts. I have 2 dedicated 20A circuit outlets but they will be 12 ft away from the subs. I would need 2 power cords that are 12 ft long. Good thick well shielded ones can get expensive.
I have a PS-Audio juice bar with a 10AWG 6ft teflon shielded power cord from b-p-t. Using this I can split the single 20A outlet into several (using the juice bar). The juice bar will be close enough for the stock power cords to reach. But this method would give only 20A x 120v = 2400 watts. Wouldn't this limit the performance of the dual f113s during the most intense bass scenes?
Any thoughts would help.
Thanks,
-Jai

Don't know for sure, but it is heavy. Definetely heavier than 18 ga. Feels like 14ga or even 12ga. You are way overconcerned about the power. Wait till you trip a breaker, then worry.

ok i recorded it on my handheld digital cam... i'm gonna see if i can get it online somehow...

Went into a high-end store in Appleton Wisconsin this past weekend. Spoke with the manager and he stated he did not have a Fathom in stock but could get one because JL just released that upper-end JL car audio dealers could order them. However returning home to Atlanta today I got a call from my local JL dealer that I buy my car audio from and he also sells and installs home theater lines as well. However he told me that he just got off the phone with his regional JL sales rep that told him he could not order the Fathom for me and told him to have me call another store on the other side of Atlanta to see about purchasing it. I felt kinda bad for my local guy because he had to give me the phone # of a competing store. That's kinda sad if you ask me. In fact it pissed me off so much I immediately called and ordered a Klipsch RT-12d. Granted, I realize that it's not a Fathom f113 but I can do without that extra 5%(if it's even that) of SQ and saved roughly $1500.00. I love JL audio as that is what totally powers my car. (1) JL 10W7 in JL box, JL 500/1 amp, JL 450/4, JL Evolution ZR-650csi components and JL Evolution XR-650cxi rear stage. However, the difficulty and extreme cost in purchasing the home sub has turned me off. I am sure the Fathom's are a force to be reckoned with but this is JL first attempt at the home market and I would think that they would be a little more competively priced and be a little more attainable, especially for their die-hard car audio consumers that will be the first to line up to buy the Fathom's but I am not going to drive 75 miles in some of America's toughest traffic to buy something I could easily drive down to my local store and purchase if it was available.
I am sure it doesn't mean a hill of beans but this was one sale that was lost due to restrictive marketing/sales practices.

JP

i'm pretty sure itz coming from the sub... i mean it could almost be the sub distoring... i heard it from my listening position and then when i walk up right next to it i can tell itz coming from the sub... anyone have pulse that could try???
What is your ELF control set to?

-5dB

i have it as a .mov but itz 27mb... anyone know how to shrink that down??

Does anyone know what the bandwidth of the ELF control is?
Is the ELF control simply a single band fixed at 25Hz parametric EQ?
Try setting it to "0" and this should make it worse or problem to appear earlier.
Let us know. I am curious about this now.

My f113 is on it's way!! It arrives on Friday. Thanks to all the folks who helped me with the pricing info. It made a huge difference.

ok itz posted on my myspace....
that sound quality isn't great but that is about what i'm hearing...

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=2013075239

here it is as a file figured it out...

Sounds like the amp has turned into a woodpecker.

so that is diff not normal???

ok itz posted on my myspace....
that sound quality isn't great but that is about what i'm hearing...

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=2013075239

here it is as a file figured it out...
That doesn't sound normal. There's definitely something wrong with your sub. I'm sure JL Audio will replace it.

That engine is knocking – definitely NOT normal.

yea they have been beyond great so far with support... i'm not upset at all...

Yikes... That's loud... Have not heard that from my Fathom...

To be honest with you, I'm surprised that there are not more problems like these... There are always error in manufacturing and there is always the possibility of damage during shipping, especially with these sensitive drivers.

Good luck, and I hope your problem gets resolved.

ok itz posted on my myspace....
that sound quality isn't great but that is about what i'm hearing...

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=2013075239

here it is as a file figured it out...
Just got back home from work and looked at the video (didn't want to do this at work). I am not a detective but I see something that caught my eye in the video. Look carefully when the video clip reaches close to the middle. Look at the bottom right side of the driver, it almost looks like it has a crack that shows as a white line. It could be just a video compression or reflection artifact as it appeared to move down the circumference as the camera panned down. Can you examine your driver more carefully to see if it has a tear?
Does anyone else see what I see?
-Jai

that line u see goes around the whole woofer... itz like a white line piece of metal behind the woofer that is inbetween the woofer and where the black part of subwoofer starts...
i'll post a pic....

here are pics...

Your right it seem like some air is definitely pushing out.... I've seem this before but from a smaller drivers,but it just sounded less like a woodpecker ,and more like a humming bird..
Holy Crap!

so everyone agrees this is diff not normal???

AH! Not at all Frockc!..... How load are you play that on the video?..I never seen my f113 move like at ,even at some loud demos I played.

Djoel

so everyone agrees this is diff not normal???
I really hope this is not normal. At least 3 other f113 owners should try the same scene and push the sub to the same levels that you did before you can conclude if this is a defect or if this normal. Initial impression based on what others are telling you appears to point that this is different. I will have my f113 soon and I will tell you what I find.
I have heard this kind of sound with other drivers. For example, if I drive my mains (Von Schweikert VR-2 with a 16 Hz signal and slowly increase the volume, I can hear this type of noise. The speaker is rated for 25Hz though. I would be really interested to know if the f113 has a subsonic filter. Is there a 3D waterfall chart available for this scene that frockc has tested? If it has a lot of sub 20Hz material, then an external subsonic filter set to 16Hz or 20Hz may solve this issue "if it is normal" for this sub.
Thanks,
-Jai

frockc,
What is this pulse scene. Please post the movie, audio track version and the exact time stamp in the movie where the noise starts to appear.
If it is not too much trouble. Set the ELF trim to "0", recalibrate the levels and then run the same scene again and see if it happens. With ELF at -5, you may be turning up the LFE a little too hot to calibrate to ref level. If ELF has a narrow band, it is going to allow sub 16Hz material to overwhelm the unit. The kind of excursion I see on the video, gives me a hint that there is some pretty deep deep LFE in that material.
Hope we figure this out.

this starts to occur at -5MV on my reciever and gets much worse when u get to about -2MV... all my stuff is at 75dB at 0MV.... i really don't think itz normal because the engineer i talked to today said these things are indestructable and even when u push it it may compress and stop getting louder but u shouldn't here a wierd sound from it... i mean this noise u can here over the movie at -5 and -3.... yea itz scene 15 on pulse when she goes into the computer room...

as far as moving it says peak to peak is 4inchs... to me even when i play this and look at a ruler 4 inchs it doesn't seem to be even hitting peak excursion...

thanks for all the help i will hear back from JL tomorrow they have been great...

Let's face it: That sub is broken. Get a hold of JL and let'em fix it.

Yeah I agree with mojomike...I believe it broken as well...A sub should not sound like that no matter what,especial one that is designed the way this sub is.It should not bottom out at that level.

Yes, I agree too. There is every indication that it is broken. I had a similar experience with my Danley DTS-20 and it was a bad driver. Now it performs like a champ. Frockc, I am sorry that you have to go through this, but JL for sure will take care of you from all that I have heard and read about them. Please let us know what follows. You know very well, that your experience will help a lot of folks here including me.

That was a great idea to post the video Craig. Hopefully, JL will step up and get you taken care of quickly. Now I have to rent Pulse and try Ch 15 @ -5.

Craig,

Sure sounds like a wire or something on the inside is banging against the driver when it moves.

As others said, contact JL Audio. I wouldn't open it up to inspect it unless they tell you to.

thanks RMK for trying it...

i have been talking to JL audio all day and they having been helping me out alot... i just sent them the video also and i'm sure they will get back to me tuesday...

thanks for the help

Should this thread be a "sticky"?

thanks RMK for trying it...

i have been talking to JL audio all day and they having been helping me out alot... i just sent them the video also and i'm sure they will get back to me tuesday...

thanks for the help


I will give it a test this evening Craig.

I am more than a little interested in how this turns out. BTW, you have a good attitude about this ;), please post your progress.

thanks for all the help...

JL Audio has been great they are going to setup an exchange for a new sub...

Honestly the best experience i have ever had with a company...

thanks for all the help...

JL Audio has been great they are going to setup an exchange for a new sub...

Honestly the best experience i have ever had with a company...
Class act. Kudos to JL.

Recipe for success: great product + great service + classy people. :cool:

Wow, JL is definately "stepping up to the plate". Not that I needed another reason to justify my purchase (the sound was more than enough), but when you hear companies treating their customers like this, makes you glad you purchased one of their products.

That's kinda sad if you ask me. In fact it pissed me off so much I immediately called and ordered a Klipsch RT-12d. Granted, I realize that it's not a Fathom f113 but I can do without that extra 5%(if it's even that) of SQ and saved roughly $1500.00.
JP

The difference between the 2 subs is a lot more than 5%. However, I am sure you will be happy with your purchase AND you saved money.

JL has restriced the dealer network for a reason with their home equipment. Don't blame them. They are making sure that the dealer is able to support the high end home audio crowd.

-Eli

I was googling the JL Fathom 113 to see if I could find an online review and found that they were located in Maramar Florida.

Does anyone know if they have a demo room for the public?

We do have a nice theater room but it is not available for public demos as it is often in use for development of new products. If you're interested in a demo in the South Florida area, I can put you in touch with one of our dealers.

Best regards,

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.

Didn't know that Miramar and Miramar Beach were so far apart.

I'll check with your office when I need a dealer demo.

Kudos to JL!

At the same token your sub was indeed still under warranty and I wouldn't expect anything less from JL or even any other reputable company.

Woha that sub was defective,100% sure. You should be able to have more,good deal more excursion and no toc toc sounds.

These woofers can tolerate moch more,with no problems.

Yes JL Audio service is A1,nothing less.

I have played some scarey deep passages but I never heard my f113 make that sound!

... I would be really interested to know if the f113 has a subsonic filter. Is there a 3D waterfall chart available for this scene that frockc has tested? If it has a lot of sub 20Hz material, then an external subsonic filter set to 16Hz or 20Hz may solve this issue "if it is normal" for this sub.
Thanks,
-Jai

The F113 has a control labeled ELF trim (for Extreme Low Frequency Trim). It is not intended as a susbsonic filter and they do not specify how steep the curve is, but it allows a -12 dB and +3dB adjustment at 25Hz. According to the JL literature it is intended to "taylor the fathom's frequency response to your particular room".

This could be used to slope off at 25Hz and see how the sub reacts.

Yes JL Audio service is A1,nothing less.

It Damn better be for the price of these subs :) .

well i should have a new fathom 113 by early next week... its already been shipped... RMK tested those scenes from pulse with one 113 and had no problems like i had so it must have been a bad driver...

thanks again everyone for the help....

Craig. Did you notice any unusual behaviour from the driver previous to the Pulse ? I am wondering whether you drove the sub too hard in your tests of Darla and WOTW. Which begs the question of the characteristics of the limiter in the JL113?

I got a chance to try an f113 in my theater and have come up with a couple of questions.

My initial impressions were disappointing, but I think since I have a fairly large room that the ARO was not able to do a good job for me. I turned off the ARO and it worked much better.

My system currently is two M&K MX200 subs in the front and one SVS PB2+ in the rear. The MX 200’s are great with music very articulate but run out of breath around 25 Hz. The SVS is a beast and a little clumsy up high so I have it crossed over at 40 Hz, the system is EQed with a Behringer. So with this system I have the best of both worlds the articulation of the MX200’s and the brute force of the SVS. I have to move to a smaller theater so I was hoping I could replace all of my subs with a pair of f113’s.

I think the JL’s are nice and articulate and hang there very well with the MX200’s and definitely extend much deeper actually I think it was deeper than the SVS. But I was surprised that the JL didn’t seem to have the same impact as my system. This was particularly true on the exploding ball on the THX trailer where with my system when it explodes you can feel a rush of air hit you with the JL’s it was nice and clean but didn’t make you duck for cover.

I worked with placement quite a bit. First I replace one of the M&K’s with the JL this was very weak. Then I stacked the f113 on top of the SVS (no easy task) this was even weaker and the SVS crushes from this location and is at less that ¼ volume on the dial, I had the JL past ¾. I tried several places along the front wall and finally had it fully corner loaded and this worked the best. I am just surprised at not getting more pressure and impact out of this unit.

I really like the quality of the sound and on music I would be very happy but it seems to lack some impact for movies. What could I be doing wrong? I tried both the JL and my system with the EQ’s or ARO both on and off.

I probably only have the JL for one more day on Demo so any thought would be appreciated.

Thanks

Gary

Craig. Did you notice any unusual behaviour from the driver previous to the Pulse ? I am wondering whether you drove the sub too hard in your tests of Darla and WOTW. Which begs the question of the characteristics of the limiter in the JL113?

i think i noticed it the first time with pulse which i tried right away since my sub old sub couldn't handle that scene at all... i think i also noticed it with a japanese drum cd and i might have noticed it just a little in the darla and wotw scenes... from what the engineer at JL said u really can't drive these to hard... the overall sub is pretty indestructable and like i said RMK tested the same scene in a much larger room and it didn't make any noise like that...

With regard to the failure exhibited by Frockc's f113...

Based on the video sent to us by Frockc, it appears that the driver suffered a separation of the upper and lower cone bodies where they meet in the center. This results in the loud tapping sound heard in his video (the upper and lower cone bodies smacking against each other). While this is a rare failure, it is one we have seen before in our car audio versions of the W7 drivers. This is the first time we have seen it in a Fathom (but, there's a first time for everything).

It is likely that the glue bond on these two parts did not set according to spec. during driver assembly and resulted in a sub-par bond that held until Frockc mercilessly flogged his f113 with Darla over and over again. :)

No amount of electronic limiting would have prevented this failure... it is simply an assembly defect in the driver and would have reared its ugly head at some point even if he hadn't flogged his f113. We will dissect Frockc's woofer when we get it back to see what happened exactly, but in the meantime we will replace his f113 so he isn't further inconvenienced.

In other words, let's move along now... nothing to see here. :)

Best regards,

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.

Gary,

Most the time, I miss the obvious.

Are you sure that polarity and phase are set correctly?

Hi Jim:

Good point, but I did try the polarity switch and several points on the phase dial. I also tried to boost it a bit by using the ELF trim. It just seems to have to work so much harder to fill the space than my current system. I also tried JL against each sub individually, way more depth than the M&K's and much better articulation than the SVS but less impact and needs to be driven pretty hard to match the SVS SPL's.

I am left scratching my head.

Thanks for you thoughts,

Gary

My initial impressions were disappointing, but I think since I have a fairly large room that the ARO was not able to do a good job for me. I turned off the ARO and it worked much better.I find this a little strange. No doubt the ARO has practical limits and may not be adequate for your room/setup. However, it should be, at the very least, a partial iimprovement. That it was not suggests that the setup of the ARO was not a success. Despite the simple instructions, it is well-known that bass modes can result in highly localized peaks and nulls throughout the room. Is it possible that you measured in one? Did you try more than one measurement locus?

Hi Kal:

I did try three different measurement locations and it didn't work for the better in any of the locations. In order to get the ARO to function I had the volume on the sub nearly all the way up any lower and I would get the flashing light indicating not enough volume. My room is good sized but not overly so, I think the problem with the ARO was that since it is a basement theater with exposed HVAC that there was some noise from the exposed ducting that was that was throwing off the ARO.

I am less concerned that the ARO didn't work than I am surprised that I needed to push the JL so hard to reach my normal listening volumes.

Thanks,

Gary

Hi Kal:

I did try three different measurement locations and it didn't work for the better in any of the locations. In order to get the ARO to function I had the volume on the sub nearly all the way up any lower and I would get the flashing light indicating not enough volume. My room is good sized but not overly so, I think the problem with the ARO was that since it is a basement theater with exposed HVAC that there was some noise from the exposed ducting that was that was throwing off the ARO.

I am less concerned that the ARO didn't work than I am surprised that I needed to push the JL so hard to reach my normal listening volumes. Well, the HVAC noise can throw it off and I usually disable HVAC for such tests. As for the level, is it possible that the f113 was in a null? That would throw everything off.

I am less concerned that the ARO didn't work than I am surprised that I needed to push the JL so hard to reach my normal listening volumes.

Thanks,

Gary

What exactly do you mean when you say you have to push it so hard to reach normal listening volumes? Is the driver flapping around like a rubber chicken?
Do you have a way of measuring the frequency response at your seat? For example, use test tones at various frequencies and see if there are large dips or peaks. My pair of F113s can slap you silly if you let them! :D

Djoel, you said that you've never seen a woofer move as much as in the video that frockc posted.What volume do you listen at? Do you ever drive over 55mph on the highway? Just kidding ;) I've seen the driver move much more than that without any extraneous noises.

Sooner or later someone was bound to have a "problem" with the sub, and this applies to any product. Product failure rates may be low but they are rarely zero.

At first I thought it was a null causing the weaker output but I have tried the sub in seven different locations including the front and the back of the room as well as several positions along the wall and corner loaded front and back. corner loaded in the front gave it the best performance but still required pushing the volume knob to 3/4.

At first I thought it was a null causing the weaker output but I have tried the sub in seven different locations including the front and the back of the room as well as several positions along the wall and corner loaded front and back. corner loaded in the front gave it the best performance but still required pushing the volume knob to 3/4.Very strange. My room is almost 5000 cu.ft. and on f113 does it for me.

Gary,

You know what I said about missing the obvious? You got a bad one.

At first I thought it was a null causing the weaker output but I have tried the sub in seven different locations including the front and the back of the room as well as several positions along the wall and corner loaded front and back. corner loaded in the front gave it the best performance but still required pushing the volume knob to 3/4.

The volume knob on the sub? If so, that doesn't really matter, it's just used to set the relative level compared to the rest of the speakers. Did you calibrate the relative levels of all speakers using your ssp? Sometimes the sub output level needs to be adjusted by ear rather than just by measuring.

I've left the level control on the sub to fixed and adjust the levels in the ssp to get the proper balance for each speaker/sub.

Expectations certainly play a role too...the other subs you have are no slouches either but the F113 should at least match their output.

Hi Bogg:

By push hard I mean I have to have the volume knob on the sub pushed to 3/4 or maybe more. The room is pretty well treated and all the corners are trapped. I have not charted the room with the f113 but I have charted the room when I Eqed my own system and the room really isn't too bad. If I have time I will go through a full batch of test tones and see where the problem is but I am afraid I will have to return the sub before I can get to it.

Thanks,

Gary

Yes the speakers were all matched with an SPL meter and I then upped the volume on the JL by ear to try and reach my tastes. The other point is that I plan to purchase two f113's but I only have on in house to demo.

Jim & Kal:

I will have the dealer check out the sub, I think they have another one in stock but they would rather not unpackage it.

GaryJ...

A couple of observations.

For ARO to calibrate reliably, you should temporarily turn off your HVAC system as stated in the manual. This is important as the calibration system can be confused by high levels of very low frequency noise in the HVAC which results in less than optimal ARO results.

You're comparing the output of twin subwoofers, each with dual 12-inch drivers, plus a large ported subwoofer to a single f113, correct? The triple subwoofer setup has advantages in terms of sensitivity and in terms of modal distribution. It may be that your room really benefits from multiple subs in the 40-80 Hz region and that the single f113 cannot deliver the same effect as your current setup for that reason. Twin Fathoms might be the ultimate solution, if your budget permits.

Also, the rush of air you're feeling on the THX intro is likely air movement from the ports of that big ported sub behind you. The Fathom simply won't do that. ;)

As far as the position of the Fathom's level knob is concerned, I wouldn't worry about that too much as long as you are getting the output you need.... some subwoofers have way over-spec sensitivity, whereas the Fathom is closer to pro-audio standards for gain. This is normally easy to compensate for by raising the level of the Pre-pro's LFE output.

I don't think you have a bad unit, but if you feel that might be the case then by all means have your dealer check it out.

Best regards,

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.

Gary, is it possible that the f113 is overmatched going up against 3 subs? I realize the f113 is a powerful mother and all, but those three subs are no slouches either. Those three subs are able to generate bass from three different location at once and that can add to the sense of impact and the effect on the room.

Hi Manville:

Thanks for your input.

I think there is some misunderstanding, I did have the HVAC off but the ducting is exposed in the basement and with the low test tones it vibrates I believe this is what is throwing the ARO off.

I know it is unfair to compare 1 sub to 3 but it takes the 3 subs to give me the sound I am looking for. If I go with the f113 I will definitely go with two and if you check my original post you will see that was always my intention.

I did run individual comparisons with the f113 against just the M&K’s and just the SVS’s. Way more bottom end that the M&K’s and similar articulation, way better articulation than the SVS and actually probably a little more extension and clarity but the SVS seems to display more power in my environment.

I do like the quality of the bass I just need some more. I will give it another try once I move into my new theater which will be quite a bit smaller and a completely purpose built room with a dedicated 20A circuit for the subs.

Thanks again for your input.

Gary

Hi Mojomike:

I do realize I am asking a lot and I did do individual tests. One on one the JL has it all over the M&K on the bottom end. One on one the J&L is way more articulate than the SVS and probably better extension too but the SVS seems to push the air better and fill the room with bass easier in my room.

Quality goes to the JL.

Gary

I wonder how well the f113 would play with the MBM?

I wonder how well the f113 would play with the MBM?

I think Craig experimented with the MBM with his dual Fathoms, but it really didn't add much according to him...

Why would you consider such a setup? A MBM is a good add-on to the raft of middle of the road subs with humped FR or subs that sacrifice mid/high bass output for low bass extension. That does not describe the JL , Velodyne or the Axiom Ep subs with their excellent linear FR.

[QUOTE=The Bogg]
Djoel, you said that you've never seen a woofer move as much as in the video that frockc posted.What volume do you listen at? Do you ever drive over 55mph on the highway? Just kidding ;) I've seen the driver move much more than that without any extraneous noises.

I don't have a highway that I can drive 55mph,is more like a city street. My sunken living room is about 13' 1/2 X 19' or so. 9' to 10' high with a small opening to the foyer. SO no need the blast to get enormous amount of low energy without seeing the woofer go crazy like frockc's!

Djoel

Why would you consider such a setup? A MBM is a good add-on to the raft of middle of the road subs with humped FR or subs that sacrifice mid/high bass output for low bass extension. That does not describe the JL , Velodyne or the Axiom Ep subs with their excellent linear FR.

I personally would not consider that setup, but Gary in his room finds something lacking when going from his previous setup to the f113. I was wondering if the midbass punch from the MBM would give him the kick he feels is missing.

Why would you consider such a setup? A MBM is a good add-on to the raft of middle of the road subs with humped FR or subs that sacrifice mid/high bass output for low bass extension. That does not describe the JL , Velodyne or the Axiom Ep subs with their excellent linear FR.

Well actually, Gary is doing about the same thing by having his SVS handle 40hz and below and the M&Ks doing the mid bass duties.

IMHO a MBM is overly complicating an already complex gadget (Your HT)

I mean... is it now then a 7.2?

Then there's the issue of directionality not to mention the WAF.

What so difficult about a sub being able to handle 20-80 Hz?
It's only two octaves FCS!

Well actually, Gary is doing about the same thing by having his SVS handle 40hz and below and the M&Ks doing the mid bass duties.

And I agree with why he was doing it. I used to do much the same thing with an Ultra and a pair of EP600s. The SVS designers emphasized extension in those designs and compromised frequency response linearity above 50hz where most bass originates. Mid/high bass reproduction is not their forte. That is why a MBM works so well with those subs or alternatively why cutting off output at 40hz on an SVS and letting more linear subs take over results in better sound which is what Gary has done.

Re: the MBM, I see no reason why any good sub should not be able to to a good job of reproducing bass between 50 an 100 hz. It shouldn't be that hard. However, there may be other issues such as room acoustics or the positioning of the seating area which may cause those frequencies to not be heard well or not have enough impact. That is where I believe the MBM can help out, especially if used nearfield. Nearfield placement can solve a lot of room problems. If that causes localization problems, well that's another story.

I cannot tell more but apparently, JL is taking a step towards unilateral pricing. I hope this will address the "Wide" disparity in how much people pay for these units. My instinct tells me that this will bring down the MSRP to more realistic numbers and put a cap on discounts. I knew this was coming but it is all for the good.

What so difficult about a sub being able to handle 20-80 Hz?
It's only two octaves FCS!

John,

Why do we need multiple drivers and crossovers in main speakers? Same reason. :)

I cannot tell more but apparently, JL is taking a step towards unilateral pricing. I hope this will address the "Wide" disparity in how much people pay for these units. My instinct tells me that this will bring down the MSRP to more realistic numbers and put a cap on discounts. I knew this was coming but it is all for the good.


If you saying what I think you are saying! Then good,I would love to get another one... :D

John,

Why do we need multiple drivers and crossovers in main speakers? Same reason. :)

Not so. 20-80 Hz is two octaves. 80- 15KHz is seven octaves!
Make that eight octaves for speakers that need to go to 40 Hz.

Big difference. Don't you think? :confused:

I cannot tell more but apparently, JL is taking a step towards unilateral pricing. I hope this will address the "Wide" disparity in how much people pay for these units. My instinct tells me that this will bring down the MSRP to more realistic numbers and put a cap on discounts. I knew this was coming but it is all for the good.

What makes it "apparently"? What's this "I cannot tell more"?

Where did you get the info?

What makes it "apparently"? What's this "I cannot tell more"?

Where did you get the info?
Sorry John, as I said, I cannot tell more. If you are an f113 owner and you purchased one from a dealer, ask your dealer and he can tell you more.

Originally Posted by jmcomp124
I cannot tell more but apparently, JL is taking a step towards unilateral pricing. I hope this will address the "Wide" disparity in how much people pay for these units. My instinct tells me that this will bring down the MSRP to more realistic numbers and put a cap on discounts. I knew this was coming but it is all for the good.
Sorry, but my instinct is that your instinct isn't so good when it comes to pricing. ;) Reference your post #1553.

Sorry, but my instinct is that your instinct isn't so good when it comes to pricing. ;) Reference your post #1553.
What in post#1553 made your instincts conclude about my instincts ;)

Sorry John, as I said, I cannot tell more. If you are an f113 owner and you purchased one from a dealer, ask your dealer and he can tell you more.

Well JM, being an F113 owner that I just purchased recently from an authorized local dealer, I gave them a call as you suggested.

The don't know what you area talking about.

Maybe they haven't been told yet. Maybe they don't want to tell me or maybe this particular guy I talked to simply does not know.

Why would you consider such a setup? A MBM is a good add-on to the raft of middle of the road subs with humped FR or subs that sacrifice mid/high bass output for low bass extension. That does not describe the JL , Velodyne or the Axiom Ep subs with their excellent linear FR.

what's an mbm? :o

what's an mbm? :o

It's definitely hard to keep up with all these new subwoofers in the work...

MBM is the the HSU Research Midbass Module (http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/mbm-12.html)

Well JM, being an F113 owner that I just purchased recently from an authorized local dealer, I gave them a call as you suggested.

The don't know what you area talking about.

Maybe they haven't been told yet. Maybe they don't want to tell me or maybe this particular guy I talked to simply does not know.
John,
They don't know or they are pretending not to know.
I stumbled across the fact that there have been quite a few internet deals floating around and this is hurting dealers who sell within geography. However, I think the root cause of this is due to the large difference between "cost" and "msrp". Let's say cost is $1900 and msrp is $3300 (just an example, I don't know what cost is but it is in the ballpark I would guess) this gives a lot of room for disparity. There are some dealers who would be happy with a 10% profit whereas there are others who want quite a bit more and they maybe justified because of their setup and investments and overheads.There are other greedy ones (my local guy was not one of them but were good guys whose price was still high for me) who simply quote msrp and do not budge. I did not go looking for "out of geography" dealers. They (note plural) came looking for me and offered me lower prices. Why, I asked myself? Were they bad guys? No. They were guys who were happy with little profit still making a fantastic product available for more people. It appeared to me that JL did not have a rule set in stone prohibiting "out of geography" sales. If I had known, I would not have encouraged any conversation. So as I heard from a reliable source now, JL is restricting/prohibiting "out of geography sale". Is this going to solve the problem? Not necessarily. There will be still dealers out there who will break the rule and take chances. JL is still addressing only the symptom but not the cause. Why give room for such disparity. Lowering the msrp and enforcing it such that prices don't exceed msrp, and putting a cap on discounts that can be given out will help more in achieving unilateral pricing rather than simply banning "out of geography" sale. In my mind, an attempt has been made towards unilaterl pricing, but it won't happen unless they address other issues. They probably have already realized this so hence my guess that MSRP will go down and we won't see heavily discounted prices any more. This will be a good thing if it happens as things will turn out to be more fair though not perfect.

I also want to add that I would have liked to support my local dealer but the cost was too high for me for duals. I later found that the price I had offered them was a fair price. I wish they would have agreed. They would have had my business. If it was only a couple of hundred dollars difference I had to pay, I would have gladly given my business to the local dealer.

Sorry, but my instinct is that your instinct isn't so good when it comes to pricing. ;) Reference your post #1553.
What in post#1553 made your instincts conclude about my instincts ;)

...........So we know you think it's overpriced. No one will prove you wrong. We get it. Don't buy an f113 or f112. It will leave more for other foolish people. If your clever or lucky or both, you can get a good price on the JL's as you well can on most any big ticket item.
......So yes your right, Fathoms are over priced. But it's the best piece of over price sound reproduction gear I have ever bought.

Since you dug out my post, I dug out yours too :D actually from another thread.
BTW, I was spot on, on pricing. Again prove me where I was wrong. If you succeed, I will stand corrected. Also, by your definition you made me clever and lucky so thank you ;). My instinct as of now is that your instinct on my instinct is wrong. So correct me.

Since you dug out my post, I dug out yours too :D actually from another thread.
BTW, I was spot on, on pricing. Again prove me where I was wrong. If you succeed, I will stand corrected. Also, by your definition you made me clever and lucky so thank you ;). My instinct as of now is that your instinct on my instinct is wrong. So correct me.

So you purchased dual F113's? Welcome to the club. Do you have any pictures of your setup? Are the subs co-located?

All this talk about stuff being "overpriced" is somewhat irritating. Supply and demand rules will decide whether the price of an item is reasonable or not. It's a great product, and what other product is "better" for less money. If you know of one then buy it. Every luxury item has a dealer mark-up. Yeah we all know it's pretty juicy for luxury items so haggle the best you can.

I paid a lot more in Canada to have a pair of these than you US woofer-lovers would have to but I don't really know of any brand new sub or 2 that I could have gotten for cheaper which would have met my needs/wants. The service I received from the Canadian distributor was outstanding and I have full warranty.

Complaining about the price of luxury items like these Fathoms is like complaining that the markup on a Ferrari is too high. In each case, tough ****, you'll just have to pay if you want it!

All this talk about stuff being "overpriced" is somewhat irritating. Supply and demand rules will decide whether the price of an item is reasonable or not. It's a great product, and what other product is "better" for less money. If you know of one then buy it. Every luxury item has a dealer mark-up. Yeah we all know it's pretty juicy for luxury items so haggle the best you can.

I paid a lot more in Canada to have a pair of these than you US woofer-lovers would have to but I don't really know of any brand new sub or 2 that I could have gotten for cheaper which would have met my needs/wants. The service I received from the Canadian distributor was outstanding and I have full warranty.

Complaining about the price of luxury items like these Fathoms is like complaining that the markup on a Ferrari is too high. In each case, tough ****, you'll just have to pay if you want it!
I just hate seeing one person paying $3K and another close to $2K and wish JL can do something about it. I will stop this talk about overpricing now. Time to move on..

So you purchased dual F113's? Welcome to the club. Do you have any pictures of your setup? Are the subs co-located?
Yes. Thanks for your wishes RMK!. After hearing it and seeing the good looks I fell for it. The subs are on their way. I will post pics next week. I recently bought some nice bass traps too from GIK. The huge Danley sold recently and these 2 small guys will take the place of the giant. Can't wait for them to arrive!!

Originally Posted by jmcomp124
What in post#1553 made your instincts conclude about my instincts
Just struck me as odd or a bit ironic that just a few days ago you were soliciting pricing information via PM's to wip saw or leverage your dealer. Or, perhaps take bids from dealers willing to ship? After all, it's not like there aren't dealers phishing here.

Originally Posted by jmcomp124
I cannot tell more but apparently, JL is taking a step towards unilateral pricing. I hope this will address the "Wide" disparity in how much people pay for these units. My instinct tells me that this will bring down the MSRP to more realistic numbers and put a cap on discounts. I knew this was coming but it is all for the good.
Now you claim to have "instinct" about about some secret pricing program.

Originally Posted by jmcomp124
John,
They don't know or they are pretending not to know.
I stumbled across the fact that there have been quite a few internet deals floating around and this is hurting dealers who sell within geography.

Nothing new or uncommon in a retail or wholesale dealer network.

However,I think the root cause of this is due to the large difference between "cost" and "msrp". Let's say cost is $1900 and msrp is $3300 (just an example, [I]I don't know what cost is but it is in the ballpark I would guess) this gives a lot of room for disparity. There are some dealers who would be happy with a 10% profit whereas there are others who want quite a bit more and they maybe justified because of their setup and investments and overheads.There are other greedy ones (my local guy was not one of them but were good guys whose price was still high for me) who simply quote msrp and do not budge. I did not go looking for "out of geography" dealers. They (note plural) came looking for me and offered me lower prices. Why, I asked myself? Were they bad guys? No. They were guys who were happy with little profit still making a fantastic product available for more people. It appeared to me that JL did not have a rule set in stone prohibiting "out of geography" sales. If I had known, I would not have encouraged any conversation. So as I heard from a reliable source now, JL is restricting/prohibiting "out of geography sale". Is this going to solve the problem? Not necessarily. There will be still dealers out there who will break the rule and take chances. JL is still addressing only the symptom but not the cause. Why give room for such disparity. Lowering the msrp and enforcing it such that prices don't exceed msrp, and putting a cap on discounts that can be given out will help more in achieving unilateral pricing rather than simply banning "out of geography" sale. In my mind, an attempt has been made towards unilaterl pricing, but it won't happen unless they address other issues. They probably have already realized this so hence my guess that MSRP will go down and we won't see heavily discounted prices any more. This will be a good thing if it happens as things will turn out to be more fair though not perfect.

So mostly this is an opinion and a wild ass guess.

Don't get me wrong. I respect your opinion. I'm all for lower prices and we all like to make a good deal. BTW congrats and I'm glad for you!

But, this is just BS conjecture on your part. Maybe a nice bed time story or maybe you feel evil for taking the lower price?

Just struck me as odd or a bit ironic that just a few days ago you were soliciting pricing information via PM's to wip saw or leverage your dealer. Or, perhaps take bids from dealers willing to ship? After all, it's not like there aren't dealers phishing here.


Now you claim to have "instinct" about about some secret pricing program.



Nothing new or uncommon in a retail or wholesale dealer network.



So mostly this is an opinion and a wild ass guess.

Don't get me wrong. I respect your opinion. I'm all for lower prices and we all like to make a good deal.

But, this is just BS conjecture on your part. Maybe a nice bed time story or maybe you feel evil for taking the lower price?
Now you got personal here. Not cool :mad: . Very low nasty comments. In the interest of this thread, I will let this go.

Just struck me as odd or a bit ironic that just a few days ago you were soliciting pricing information via PM's to wip saw or leverage your dealer. Or, perhaps take bids from dealers willing to ship? After all, it's not like there aren't dealers phishing here.


Now you claim to have "instinct" about about some secret pricing program.



Nothing new or uncommon in a retail or wholesale dealer network.



So mostly this is an opinion and a wild ass guess.

Don't get me wrong. I respect your opinion. I'm all for lower prices and we all like to make a good deal. BTW congrats and I'm glad for you!

But, this is just BS conjecture on your part. Maybe a nice bed time story or maybe you feel evil for taking the lower price?
For the record, I was not looking for dealers to PM me. Totally unexpected outcome. I wanted to get info on how much people paid. Take the average and offer that to my local dealer. Which is exactly what I did. Don't do this accusing thing when you don't know.

Soooo as anyone polished their sub with car wax as mention in the manual???...
Changing the subject...

Bravo, like I said I'm happy for you.

I still believe it's conjecture on your part to announce "caps on discounts" and changes to the MSRP because you apparently bought "out of geography" in your words.

Sorry you've taken offence, but it was your story.

Bravo, like I said I'm happy for you.

I still believe it's conjecture on your part to announce "caps on discounts" and changes to the MSRP because you apparently bought "out of geography" in your words.

Sorry you've taken offence, but it was your story.
No problem. I am sorry too for getting too hung up on this. We will move on.

If I could have picked up an F113 for close to ~$2,000 to 2,200 range I would've jumped, instead I just received my new Klipsch RT-12d. Quite impressive but the verdict is still out. Klipsch is sending me their Sub-Commander software to load on PC to hook to RT via USB so I will be able to see how flat this thing can play in my room. I am still not factoring out purchasing an F113 if this Klipsch doesn't cut the mustard but unless one can be had for around the $2200 mark which is $700 more than the Klipsch I paid then I will be keeping the Klipsch. Output from the Klipsch is very impressive with minimal excursion but the FR needs tweaking in my room that the Klipsch onboard room opt. software can't seem to tackle. Once I get the software and break out the dB meter I will see if it's a keeper. However, I find that Manville Smith repsonding to the damaged driver issue is very admirable and adds value to the JL subs. Klipsch support has been admirable too in accomodating my every needs too so going with one over the other is going to come down to JL Price and Klipsch Frequency Response. I will see which one outweighs the other.

Originally Posted by Djoel
Soooo as anyone polished their sub with car wax as mention in the manual???...
Changing the subject...
No wax but I have used a Meguires Microfiber cloth for finger prints.

Gentleman,

I am receiving delivery of one (sorry but can't join the twins club) of the F-113's next week. I probably can pick up 140 pounds on a dead lift for a short period of time. Is this sub truly manageable by one person to unskid and move into position?

I sold my Hsu Turbo and MBM to purchase one of these to add floor space and SQ. I am looking forward to the Fathom experience.

Thanks,
Charles

Yes you can, well I did any how.

Just get it very close to where you think you want it before you open the box. Very good unpacking instructions on the box.

JL includes some white cotton gloves inside the box for handling the unit after you have removed the black flannel/felt bag, which is the last piece of wrapping. The unwrapping is great fun, like Xmas when you were five and still believed.

Your gonna love it!

Yes. Thanks for your wishes RMK!. After hearing it and seeing the good looks I fell for it. The subs are on their way. I will post pics next week. I recently bought some nice bass traps too from GIK. The huge Danley sold recently and these 2 small guys will take the place of the giant. Can't wait for them to arrive!!


Congrats on the sale of the Danley. You should really update your Ad on Audiogon. It shows the DTS-20 still for sale. :)

For duals, do you folks stack it up or place them side by side? I read about the Master/Slave mode and was wondering how people are running theirs. I am thinking balanced XLR connections all the way (eq to master and then master to slave). I have 2, 20 amp dedicated circuits which may still not be enough. One circuit currently handles all of the other electronics including massive dual citation 7.1 amps and projector. The other will be used for the master f113. I am planning on plugging in the slave into a 15amp circuit. This circuit is shared by 5 x 60w bulbs and a ceiling fan. During movies these bulbs will be turned off. Sometimes they are in "low" (using a dimmer). Will the slave f113 be ok in this 15amp shared circuit? Or do I have to worry about installing another 20 amp circuit (which could mean a lot of work).
Thanks,
-Jai

Congrats on the sale of the Danley. You should really update your Ad on Audiogon. It shows the DTS-20 still for sale. :)
Thanks for the reminder. Will do it right now.

Thanks for the reminder. Will do it right now.

Did you have to ship that thing! Jesus that's freaking huge...

djoel

For duals, do you folks stack it up or place them side by side?
-Jai

I was looking in the owners manual (downloadable from JL) and it shows a couple of different configurations.

What's your room like in terms of cubic feet and being sealed or opened to other areas?

For duals, do you folks stack it up or place them side by side

Stacked,I was worried about the finish but the rubber feet should be A ok.At first worried the top one would slide with major back and forth cone movement...nope.The subs are 130lbs each,does not dance at all like small micro cubes. ;)

As long as you have a solid 12AMPS free per f113 you should be fine.To tip the breakers you would need one hell of a eardrum buster pounding in a huge room.

I went so far as to have two running of one 15AMP line! I have to say I never pushed mine too far.I have dual Paradigms rated at close to15AMP max draw(per sub)running of one 15AMP line,even window blasters never had me reset the breakers.

Did you have to ship that thing! Jesus that's freaking huge...

djoel
Yes. Shipping costs a lot. It took 3 strong guys to get this thing in place.

I was looking in the owners manual (downloadable from JL) and it shows a couple of different configurations.

What's your room like in terms of cubic feet and being sealed or opened to other areas?
It is a little over 6000 cu ft. It is a family room that opens into the kitchen and nook area. Family room + kitchen + nook is about 6000+. But then it is leaky. It opens into the stairway and the main entry where there is an open floor plan. So I would say effective 7000 cu ft. Seating position will be about 17 ft for the sub.

Stacked,I was worried about the finish but the rubber feet should be A ok.At first worried the top one would slide with major back and forth cone movement...nope.The subs are 130lbs each,does not dance at all like small micro cubes. ;)

As long as you have a solid 12AMPS free per f113 you should be fine.To tip the breakers you would need one hell of a eardrum buster pounding in a huge room.

I went so far as to have two running of one 15AMP line! I have to say I never pushed mine too far.I have dual Paradigms rated at close to15AMP max draw(per sub)running of one 15AMP line,even window blasters never had me reset the breakers.
Thanks for the info. Honestly, I didn't think of settling for something so small in size. I found it hard to believe what it could do. The Danley will not be shipped until mid next week so I maybe able to compare the two side by side.

It is a little over 6000 cu ft. It is a family room that opens into the kitchen and nook area. Family room + kitchen + nook is about 6000+. But then it is leaky. It opens into the stairway and the main entry where there is an open floor plan. So I would say effective 7000 cu ft. Seating position will be about 17 ft for the sub.

If you had a fairly smooth frequency response curve with the Danley, then I would locate both subs in the same place you had the Danley. It seems that you only have to have subs side by side within a couple of feet of each other for the extra boost in SPL. I would avoid stacking them as it would seem that over time, the bottom one would eventually start coming apart and there is nothing to be gained by stacking them over placing them side by side. ... and who knows, in time you might want to sell them for the next upgrade and certainly don't want to have to explain why one of them is marked up.

If however the response curve wasn't natively all that flat, I would opt for placement that would help flatten it some even if it meant at the cost of a couple of dbs. The owner's manual goes into some detail about different placement options, but I'd go for trying to keep the sub in front of the viewing area and as much equal distant from the viewers as possible and inboard of the deep corners.

Also factor in any major dropoffs at the bottom end of the reponse curve. Corner loading may help in a large lossy room, but I've found with other subs that you get this artificial boomy sound that to me was more distracting than beneficial.

To save of the back, Manville's suggestion about getting those disk to go under the sub to help slide them around is a very good idea.

Thanks for the info. Honestly, I didn't think of settling for something so small in size. I found it hard to believe what it could do. The Danley will not be shipped until mid next week so I maybe able to compare the two side by side.

I would look forward to that comparison...

BTW - what kind of GIK Traps did you get?

If you had a fairly smooth frequency response curve with the Danley, then I would locate both subs in the same place you had the Danley. It seems that you only have to have subs side by side within a couple of feet of each other for the extra boost in SPL. I would avoid stacking them as it would seem that over time, the bottom one would eventually start coming apart and there is nothing to be gained by stacking them over placing them side by side. ... and who knows, in time you might want to sell them for the next upgrade and certainly don't want to have to explain why one of them is marked up.

If however the response curve wasn't natively all that flat, I would opt for placement that would help flatten it some even if it meant at the cost of a couple of dbs. The owner's manual goes into some detail about different placement options, but I'd go for trying to keep the sub in front of the viewing area and as much equal distant from the viewers as possible and inboard of the deep corners.

Also factor in any major dropoffs at the bottom end of the reponse curve. Corner loading may help in a large lossy room, but I've found with other subs that you get this artificial boomy sound that to me was more distracting than beneficial.

To save of the back, Manville's suggestion about getting those disk to go under the sub to help slide them around is a very good idea.
Good points. Thanks a lot.

I would look forward to that comparison...

BTW - what kind of GIK Traps did you get?
I got the tritraps for lower octaves, and the 242 for higher frequencies.

Yes you can, well I did any how.

Just get it very close to where you think you want it before you open the box. Very good unpacking instructions on the box.

JL includes some white cotton gloves inside the box for handling the unit after you have removed the black flannel/felt bag, which is the last piece of wrapping. The unwrapping is great fun, like Xmas when you were five and still believed.

Your gonna love it!

Bob,

Thank you for responding. Seems like I'll be able to manage this by myself. I'll call you if I need help!! :)

I've unpacked the Hsu HO and also other heavy devices in my day so this one looks like an independent setup. Love those white gloves! They add a touch of class to the purchase.

I am looking forward to a small package, large output device. One of the issues as I wrote was my floor space and also the built in ARO will be an asset. I would be a bit challenged with the SMS-1 device from Velo.

Again, thanks Bob!
Charles

For duals, do you folks stack it up or place them side by side?Thanks,
-Jai
Neither in my case.

Due to space limitations the twin 113s are located to the rear of my listening/viewing area.

They are 21.5 feet apart on opposite walls. One is facing the opposing wall at 90º. The other is canted 45º towards the listening area. Each one is positioned 4 feet from the back wall (glass - metal blinds) and two feet from the side walls (sheetrock).

When the 'green' LEDs switch on, the dog hustles to the door. Shame....I don't want to ever leave the room anymore. :D

For duals, do you folks stack it up or place them side by side? I read about the Master/Slave mode and was wondering how people are running theirs. I am thinking balanced XLR connections all the way (eq to master and then master to slave). I have 2, 20 amp dedicated circuits which may still not be enough. One circuit currently handles all of the other electronics including massive dual citation 7.1 amps and projector. The other will be used for the master f113. I am planning on plugging in the slave into a 15amp circuit. This circuit is shared by 5 x 60w bulbs and a ceiling fan. During movies these bulbs will be turned off. Sometimes they are in "low" (using a dimmer). Will the slave f113 be ok in this 15amp shared circuit? Or do I have to worry about installing another 20 amp circuit (which could mean a lot of work).
Thanks,
-Jai

I wouldn't worry too much about your power requirements as I ran 2 of them with my whole system on 1 15amp circuit (until my basement gets redone) and could hit stupendous levels without setting off the breaker. Highest I went was a few db below reference with active ATC speakers on the same circuit as well.

I plan on a 20amp circuit for the 2 subs and maybe the centre channel. The "continuous" draw of the subs is not necessarily too high. The peaks can usually be handled by a reasonable circuit if it isn't overloaded. All else fails, put the subs on your circuit and crank it as loud as you wish...if the breaker trips then you need more power! If not, enjoy! ;)

I wouldn't put the subs on any circuit with a dimmer as I've had a few "buzz" issues that way. Best to feed them clean power and dimmers etc... are not good.

I contacted my local dealer....they are running a hot special right now

$0 off MSRP!!!

If I were to purchase a f113 from my authorized dealer it would be the first time in my entire life I've paid FULLL MSRP. I guess when you got the hottest product out there you can do what you want. :rolleyes:

I contacted my local dealer....they are running a hot special right now

$0 off MSRP!!!

If I were to purchase a f113 from my authorized dealer it would be the first time in my entire life I've paid FULLL MSRP. I guess when you got the hottest product out there you can do what you want. :rolleyes:

Yes, it's a shame because some lucky souls on here are getting them for big discounts, some stating around the 2000-2200 mark, whereas if I could have found an F113 for 2200.00 I would have bought it over my $1500.00 Klipsch RT-12d. Oh well, some get all the breaks.

JP

I contacted my local dealer....they are running a hot special right now

$0 off MSRP!!!

If I were to purchase a f113 from my authorized dealer it would be the first time in my entire life I've paid FULLL MSRP. I guess when you got the hottest product out there you can do what you want. :rolleyes:
Brady,
I understand your frustration and feel for you. Honestly.
I saw one on audiogon right now for $2550 obo. The feedback looks good too.
Hope this helps. It's a great sub and if you can get it for under $2500, I would say go for it.
-Jai

A mighty $0 OFF...WOW this is a major SPECIAL!!! :eek:

At least they should give a small discount ,just to make a new customer or promote sales,even a minute effort. I would sell it for $3199.98,the next day price would fall to $3198.98! Just like at Wol Mart, prices would be falling...slowly.

I didn't fully understand why people were joking about it breaking your back. Letme tell you this thing is HEAVY. On thick carpet it makes it even worse because the rubber feet will not let you slid it. I tried those coasters but on thick berber they do not work.


http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=572477

True rta for dummies. This is my next step.

I didn't fully understand why people were joking about it breaking your back. Letme tell you this thing is HEAVY. On thick carpet it makes it even worse because the rubber feet will not let you slid it. I tried those coasters but on thick berber they do not work.



I ended up rolling the box end over end like a square wheel until I got it near it's home before unpacking. This included a trip down a flight of stairs. :eek:

I ended up rolling the box end over end like a square wheel until I got it near it's home before unpacking. This included a trip down a flight of stairs. :eek:

You rolled the boxed JL end over end through your house and down a flight of stairs? :confused:

I understand that it is too late for you, but for any others who don't really understand how heavy 150lbs (shipping weight) is, here is a wonderful invention that makes the job easy. ;)

You rolled the boxed JL end over end through your house and down a flight of stairs? :confused:

I understand that it is too late for you, but for any others who don't really understand how heavy 150lbs (shipping weight) is, here is a wonderful invention that makes the job easy. ;)

Hand trucks are for girlie men... That's why I got my wife to help me. :D;)

You rolled the boxed JL end over end through your house and down a flight of stairs? :confused:

I understand that it is too late for you, but for any others who don't really understand how heavy 150lbs (shipping weight) is, here is a wonderful invention that makes the job easy. ;)

Personally, the hand trucks with airfilled wheels are best for the crappy stair wells :)

at least imho :)

Hand trucks are for girlie men... That's why I got my wife to help me. :D;)


Your right! I remember Craigsub saying he "carried" both F113's down to his theatre himself. Maybe it wasn't a virus that put him out of commission after all. Can you say hernia? :p

You rolled the boxed JL end over end through your house and down a flight of stairs? :confused:

I understand that it is too late for you, but for any others who don't really understand how heavy 150lbs (shipping weight) is, here is a wonderful invention that makes the job easy. ;)

I was so excited to get it set up that I became very strong :D

At least you'll have fairly decent bass to listen to when you are recovering from surgery.

Brady,
I understand your frustration and feel for you. Honestly.
I saw one on audiogon right now for $2550 obo. The feedback looks good too.
Hope this helps. It's a great sub and if you can get it for under $2500, I would say go for it.
-Jai


He is also a member AVS F..

No wax but I have used a Meguires Microfiber cloth for finger prints.

you didn't mention how well this *worked* ...

paul

At least you'll have fairly decent bass to listen to when you are recovering from surgery.

I just sat in front of it, played a 18Hz test tone and got a nice massage.

Seriously though, I could have been smarter about it but I had more back strain from shuffling it around the room while trying to find the sweet spot.

Where a lot of my purchases (not just AV) have fallen short of expectations, especially based on forum-hype; the F113 is an exception. I'm listening to all my material again and discovering notes and textures that were not apparent before. :)

There are two pieces of equipment that are going to be with me for a long run,my audio metamorphose. My trusty AVM 30 Saying that I hope Sonic Frontiers get their act together with the hdmi upgrade :mad: <, OUT IT WILL GO,and of course F113 stays.
My stuff have a 8 to 12 month life span,before I want to make changes!
I don't see this sub going any where...Hmm partly because of it's so heavy :p ...
I kidd great SQ.


Djoel

http://www.hdtvhouse.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?I talked to them and they said they did not have them instock and they are special order.Just wondering if they are on the up and up

http://www.hdtvhouse.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?I talked to them and they said they did not have them instock and they are special order.Just wondering if they are on the up and up

sorry,type in jl audio f113 in the search and check out that price

Federal is not authorized to sell JL Audio. It will be a grey market item with no warranty.

sorry,type in jl audio f113 in the search and check out that price

Wow! Are they for real?

Wow! Are they for real?

No - They are part of Federal Stereo, and are not authorized to sell JL Audio.

No - They are part of Federal Stereo, and are not authorized to sell JL Audio.
I wonder how they get these subs though. Real f113s or clones.