No - They are part of Federal Stereo, and are not authorized to sell JL Audio.

Where does Federal Stereo get their subs from?

If they are making money selling for this $$, that should tell us that the dealers must be making around 100% markup on these puppies.

That is obscene? Is it not?

Originally Posted by paulnpcom

you didn't mention how well this *worked* ...

paul
Paul it has worked very well for me. I have a Yamaha grand piano with a similar finish that we care for the same way. We have not used a wax yet.

Make sure you don't have dust on the box or, try to remove any dust with a feather duster etc.

Mist a little window cleaner (Windex, 409 etc.) on the microfiber cloth and rub gently. Fingerprints will clean up very nice. Getting the dust off first and a moist microfiber will keep the swirl marks away.

Federal is not authorized to sell JL Audio. It will be a grey market item with no warranty.

explain grey market,I have bought other speakers on ebay from unauthorized dealers,these are obviously grey market also,however I can not tell any difference from others of the same brand bought from factory dealer.Sure you take a chance with the warranty but alot of the times the savings is worth it.So what does grey market realy mean.If they are copies how come the look and sound authentic.I would love to have one of these subs and at this price I can afford one,but if it is a fake I don't want it.
I do not care if it is b stock just not fake

Where does Federal Stereo get their subs from?

If they are making money selling for this $$, that should tell us that the dealers must be making around 100% markup on these puppies.

That is obscene? Is it not?


I had a local car audio shop that deals jl check on a price for me,I told him what hdtv was selling them for and he said he would try to beat it,after he talked to his rep he called back and said he could not touch it.I don't understand how they could sell them that cheap and make money.

Where does Federal Stereo get their subs from?

If they are making money selling for this $$, that should tell us that the dealers must be making around 100% markup on these puppies.

That is obscene? Is it not?
Lack of words here. Couldn't agree more with you!

explain grey market,I have bought other speakers on ebay from unauthorized dealers,these are obviously grey market also,however I can not tell any difference from others of the same brand bought from factory dealer.Sure you take a chance with the warranty but alot of the times the savings is worth it.So what does grey market realy mean.If they are copies how come the look and sound authentic.I would love to have one of these subs and at this price I can afford one,but if it is a fake I don't want it.
I do not care if it is b stock just not fake

Gray market means legit items not meant for local sales. Usually applies to imported goods that are brought to the US but lack US warranty and, in some cases, some of the accessories that acompany the US version.

Being that this JL sub is all made in the US, I cannot explain how it could be gray market. It sound more like black market. An item like this would be difficult to succesfully replicate. The packing alone, the manual, and the ARO mike would be hard to duplicate, let alone the driver and the very well made cabinet.

Originally Posted by bis
.... I don't understand how they could sell them that cheap and make money.
Well lets see...
They advertise a very low price...
They don't have any in stock...
It's a special order that you no doubt have to pay for or at least leave a deposit for...
They are not a JL Audio dealer...
If you click around on the pages they operate under two or three different names...
Hmmmm... what was it that P.T. Barnum said?

Well lets see...
They advertise a very low price...
They don't have any in stock...
It's a special order that you no doubt have to pay for or at least leave a deposit for...
They are not a JL Audio dealer...
If you click around on the pages they operate under two or three different names...
Hmmmm... what was it that P.T. Barnum said?

I'm curious to know if anyone has ordered one from them and did they get what they payed for.
b curry,I'm realy concerned about that location in your sig.but it is very easy to get off that road and on to one that goes somewhere much more pleasent

Where does Federal Stereo get their subs from?

If they are making money selling for this $$, that should tell us that the dealers must be making around 100% markup on these puppies.

That is obscene? Is it not?

Heres how Federal Stereo works and sites like

Audiophile Liquidator
Xtreme Liquidator
American Theater
and a million others with the same parent company in NJ or NY.

1) They start a crappy unprofessional site thats basically a price list. They calculate a lowball price, based on known industry margins (pretty much everything is the same).

2) When you order or call they will take your payment, and then they scramble to find a dealer who will sell product for cost plus 5 or 10%.

3) They receive that item from the authorized dealer, and then carefully open the box and either remove or alter the serial number.

4) If they cant find a dealer who will sell them the product then they will basically hold on to your money until you file a complaint with your credit card company. At that point you usually get your money back minus a restocking fee of 10-15%, so they made many on you regardless.

People can order Denon and Yamaha all day long without incident because they dont regulate their distribution, but products like JL, Krell, etc are tracked.

Dealers do not make 100% markup on audio products. Not even close. This isnt pharmaceutical drugs or something.

4) If they cant find a dealer who will sell them the product then they will basically hold on to your money until you file a complaint with your credit card company. At that point you usually get your money back minus a restocking fee of 10-15%, so they made many on you regardless.

That can't be correct. Restocking for something that was never stocked? Sorry that's not the way any of my credit cards work. And I have had this happened many times. Order an item, card gets cherged item never arrives. Automatic charge reversal, no restocking charges. So this does not hold water.

Originally Posted by bis

b curry,I'm realy concerned about that location in your sig.but it is very easy to get off that road and on to one that goes somewhere much more pleasent
Actually bis, Hell, Michigan is a very pleasant place in the country near the University of Michigan thank you very much.

You can Goggle the map or look here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell,_Michigan) if you like and see for yourself. I live a few miles away, on the way to...

It's amazes me how people who own those web sites sleep at night. I guess the answer is very well.

Actually bis, Hell, Michigan is a very pleasant place in the country near the University of Michigan thank you very much.

You can Goggle the map or look here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell,_Michigan) if you like and see for yourself. I live a few miles away, on the way to...

no insult intended just couldn't pass up the opportunity to share something positive

Thats fine if it hasnt happend to YOU. Most people have been burned by an internet company at some point.

As the famous saying goes:

"Hay is much cheaper after it has gone through the horse"

Once government regulation of internet sales starts, and CA is not far off from that, these businesses will dissappear because they operate on razor thin margins.

I am just stating how credit cards work. You, apparently, have an agenda or an ax to grind with Intenet companies and that's OK. But don't start making up stories to embelish your horror stories about restocking fees and other charges that no CC company will stand for. Their rule is basically: If you order something and never get it, you pay nothing. Period. If somebody has been stuck with restocking fees for an item that you never got, please chime in.

And maybe you can clarify about how California is "not far fromr regulation of Internet sales" (which has nothing to do with the subject at hand.) Can you give me a number for pending legislation or other information on this matter?

And what exactly does "Hay is much cheaper after it has gone through the horse" apply to this discussion? It sounds clever, it might be famous, but does not apply. Whatever your opinion of IN dealers should not give way to imply that they sell items that, according to that ridiculous statement, has been turned into manure.

Sorry but you just lost all credibility with me. :mad:

Well lets see...
They advertise a very low price...
They don't have any in stock...
It's a special order that you no doubt have to pay for or at least leave a deposit for...
They are not a JL Audio dealer...
If you click around on the pages they operate under two or three different names...
Hmmmm... what was it that P.T. Barnum said?

And ... After you realize that you are not ever going to SEE a Fathom 113 from them, they offer a screaming deal on another subwoofer which JUST happens to be a better performer anyway ...

I am just stating how credit cards work. You, apparently, have an agenda or an ax to grind with Intenet companies and that's OK. But don't start making up stories to embelish your horror stories about restocking fees and other charges that no CC company will stand for. Their rule is basically: If you order something and never get it, you pay nothing. Period. If somebody has been stuck with restocking fees for an item that you never got, please chime in.

And maybe you can clarify about how California is "not far fromr regulation of Internet sales" (which has nothing to do with the subject at hand.) Can you give me a number for pending legislation or other information on this matter?

And what exactly does "Hay is much cheaper after it has gone through the horse" apply to this discussion? It sounds clever, it might be famous, but does not apply. Whatever your opinion of IN dealers should not give way to imply that they sell items that, according to that ridiculous statement, has been turned into manure.

Sorry but you just lost all credibility with me. :mad:

For off, I wasnt looking to establish credibility with you in the first place.

Second of all, theres nothing wrong with getting a deal. There is something wrong however with people going to showrooms to listen and/or see and then buying on the internet. Thats the Walmart way of thinking.

Third of you said that dealers makes 100% margin. "That is obsene. Is it not?" That is obsene to even think that. Again Walmart thinking. Complain about gas prices. ExxonMobil and Chevron are literally making 100% margin.

Most states including California will start regulating internet sales purchased and shipped in and out of state. States lose billions of dollars of tax revenue, and in turn cut state spending on legitimate and much needed ventures such as funding state colleges, hiring state employees, and paying teachers more money. All so people can save a few bucks. Check with the State Board of Equalization and then get back to me.

This isnt worth my time or energy. This thread has become a "Where can I get discount thread."

Bravo AVS forum!

And ... After you realize that you are not ever going to SEE a Fathom 113 from them, they offer a screaming deal on another subwoofer which JUST happens to be a better performer anyway ...

Craigsub I commend you on trying to keep things in check here, but I think you are wasting your breath. Good luck.

Second of all, theres nothing wrong with getting a deal. There is something wrong however with people going to showrooms to listen and/or see and then buying on the internet. Thats the Walmart way of thinking.

So according to you, you are implying that if a person goes to a showroom/demo/whatever to listen and/or see then he/she is obliged to buy from that showroom even if later they find out that the showroom/dealer is charging you more than 15% than what other authorized dealers are selling (example is my personal experience). I don't know who you were insinuating towards, but if it was me, here is some clarification. I don't want to pay $750 more for the same products when some other authorized dealer is willing to give me a fair price. Anyone who pays that much more, knowing they are getting ripped off, is what can I say, "an idiot". BTW, price was one factor, but at the end of the day, among the various people I talked to, I chose to give my business to the one that appeared to have the best attitude and helping nature than everyone else.
Have their been times when you feel you talk to a person and you think, they deserve your business? Well, this was one of those cases.

jmcomp124,

To carry your point one step further, I'd like to add that manufacturers who wish to tighten up the distribution chain so that only authorized dealers can sell their products in a territory and prices are "fixed" so they don't fall below a certain level, should also require their dealers to have "GOOD" demos and carry "INVENTORY". What is absurd is when an authorized dealer who has no demo and has no inventory wants to charge you a hefty premium to basically make a phone call for you. They add no meaningful service. All they add is cost.

With competition from other manufacturers who are internet only, it may be that the retail store model is no long a viable one for the enthusiast market. When you think about it, how many people here actually bought their F113s based on a dealer's store demo and how many ordered theirs based on comments by others on this forum.

Then you've got the smart designers who don't have the ability to build a retail network but can build a heck of a subwoofer, setup a webstore and promote through these forums. Who around here doesn't want to support someone like that over a manufacturer who only wants to sell through "authorized retailers".

Originally Posted by AudioArchitect

.....This thread has become a "Where can I get discount thread."

Bravo AVS forum!
Yep! I agree.

It's also reminiscent of the Costco thread over on the Flat Panel General section where the hot topic is how to screw Costco and their new warranty program.

I am thinking of using a pair of fathom 112s or 113 with an NHT Xd system, which has small monitors and seperate subwoofers. It's a 6.2 system but the subs don't get down that low. I'm thinking of using both of the supplied NHT subwoofers in the back, and then use the Fathoms in the front. But to do this, the fathoms have to crossover as high as 125 or 150 hz.

Does anyone have any idea if they can do it?

Thanks

The specifications say variable from 30 Hz – 160 Hz.

jmcomp124,

To carry your point one step further, I'd like to add that manufacturers who wish to tighten up the distribution chain so that only authorized dealers can sell their products in a territory and prices are "fixed" so they don't fall below a certain level, should also require their dealers to have "GOOD" demos and carry "INVENTORY". What is absurd is when an authorized dealer who has no demo and has no inventory wants to charge you a hefty premium to basically make a phone call for you. They add no meaningful service. All they add is cost.

With competition from other manufacturers who are internet only, it may be that the retail store model is no long a viable one for the enthusiast market. When you think about it, how many people here actually bought their F113s based on a dealer's store demo and how many ordered theirs based on comments by others on this forum.

Then you've got the smart designers who don't have the ability to build a retail network but can build a heck of a subwoofer, setup a webstore and promote through these forums. Who around here doesn't want to support someone like that over a manufacturer who only wants to sell through "authorized retailers".

Well said JimP, I find that about 99.9% of the time I am much more informed and knowledgeable than any Brick and Mortar store assistants and/or specialists prior to me ever stepping in to audition a component.

Let's not ruin this thread.

I just ordered another f113 from my dealer, it should be here sometime next week. Can't wait to hear what two of these monsters can do.

You are absolutely right Jeff, I deleted my off topic post. Congrats on the dual F113's. I know you will love em.



Let's not ruin this thread.

I just ordered another f113 from my dealer, it should be here sometime next week. Can't wait to hear what two of these monsters can do.

For off, I wasnt looking to establish credibility with you in the first place.

Second of all, theres nothing wrong with getting a deal. There is something wrong however with people going to showrooms to listen and/or see and then buying on the internet. Thats the Walmart way of thinking.

Third of you said that dealers makes 100% margin. "That is obsene. Is it not?" That is obsene to even think that. Again Walmart thinking. Complain about gas prices. ExxonMobil and Chevron are literally making 100% margin.

Most states including California will start regulating internet sales purchased and shipped in and out of state. States lose billions of dollars of tax revenue, and in turn cut state spending on legitimate and much needed ventures such as funding state colleges, hiring state employees, and paying teachers more money. All so people can save a few bucks. Check with the State Board of Equalization and then get back to me.

This isnt worth my time or energy. This thread has become a "Where can I get discount thread."

Bravo AVS forum!

Your agenda just shinned brighter that ever!

You obvioulsy own, have interest in or know somebody who has a brick and mortar store and are slamming Internet vendors in general. Not just the crooks.

To start a rant on how California is not collecting enough taxes and needs to tax Internet sales is beyond ridiculous! I mean this state collects more taxes than most nations. In any event the burden of proof is on you, not me. It is up to you to contact the State Board of Equalization and show evidence of pendiing legislation regarding Internet sales. Not that I am saying it won't happen in the future, but you are just wishing it to happen.

It is very apparent with your "This has become the where can I get a discount thread" line that the issue of discounting has hit a sour note with you. I wonder why? When did discount become a negative word in this forum?

So as long as Exxon makes 100% profit it is OK for retailers to do so as well. Great logic. You should run for office!
BTW 1) Exxon searches, drills, extracts, distill, transports, distributes and retails oil and gas. They should be entitled to healthy profits for doing all that.
2) Taxes an each gallon of oil exceed oil company profits
3) Retailers only buy, stock, demo and sell.
BTW nobody here asks anybody for credibility. That is something you earn over time by your posts. You don't have any. You are a dealer and a Troll pushing your own personal agenda. I mean "The Walmart way of thinking"? Wow!

You crossed the line between embellishment and lying when you posted your line: "... they will basically hold on to your money until you file a complaint with your credit card company. At that point you usually get your money back minus a restocking fee of 10-15%, so they made many on you regardless.

That simply DOES NOT HAPPEN. And you do not file a "complaint", you "dispute a charge". And the rules are: If a purchase charged is made to your CC and you don't get the goods = full refund, not usually, always. Period!

Several Fathom owners have posted pictures of their setups. It is interesting so see how the subs are being positioned, are room treatments used and what are the other system components. FR curves and SPL measurements are nice, but a picture is worth a thousand words, so post em.

Hint, using the word pictures in the title will make them easier to find.

This thread is sinking,a who should sell what and at how high profit argument!

First internet only sellers(legal dumpsters that ruin the market)should be cut out.These bozos dump stock at a razor thin markup(by selling in large quantities they still make the profit) and people get acustomed to this,in turn the mass of local stores suffers and loses sales.Beacuse of a few slimers!

I am not talking customer direct operations like SVS or HSU. I am talking online dumpsters who dump any product they can sell at near cost prices.This rotts the market and starts jimbo dumbo price wars. These bums should be slashed out of the equation,JL should NEVER promote these midgets.

Same thing took place in PC sales,online dumpsters like OldEgg and other online liquidation centers started slashing to a point where doing business at a smaller level is not worthwile.

It is not about fat markups,its a bout a fair markup to make a descent living. Stick a fork in online dumpsters.And all who swear by them.

Several Fathom owners have posted pictures of their setups. It is interesting so see how the subs are being positioned, are room treatments used and what are the other system components. FR curves and SPL measurements are nice, but a picture is worth a thousand words, so post em.

Hint, using the word pictures in the title will make them easier to find.

OK Here's mine.

Stick a fork in online dumpsters.And all who swear by them.

That's heartwarming. How big a fork and where should it be stuck? :rolleyes:

Some information regarding Exxon.

In 2005, sales totaled $359 Billion.
Gross Profits were $59 Billion.
Federal Taxes Paid were $23 Billion
Net Profit was $36 Billion.

That is not quite a 100% profit margin.

Ok ... Back to ripping the price on Fathom 113's ... The typical asking price seems to be about $2500.

Does anyone think the dealer is getting rich on this ?

That's heartwarming. How big a fork and where should it be stuck? :rolleyes:

T'was the proverbial fork. No farm animals or sweat shop operators where seriously hurt in this operation!

Yes heartwarming it is.

Some information regarding Exxon.

In 2005, sales totaled $359 Billion.
Gross Profits were $59 Billion.
Federal Taxes Paid were $23 Billion
Net Profit was $36 Billion.

That is not quite a 100% profit margin.

Ok ... Back to ripping the price on Fathom 113's ... The typical asking price seems to be about $2500.

Does anyone think the dealer is getting rich on this ?

$2500 is a very fair price,and anyone screaming injustice should start shopping audio at Wool Mart. Where the prices always fall to the ground,celling and so forth.

OK Here's mine.

I'm trying to figure the relative size of the sub. Is that a 50"or 60" display in the picture? Thanks.

OK Here's mine.


Very Nice! Love the B&Ws

Djoel

I'll try to take a picture of my setup this week. As for pricing, all of my local dealers wanted full MSRP (unless you count $200 off for a demo model). I asked a couple of folks here and I did NOT get solicited by any internet dealers at all. I went on a business trip to another state and walked into an HT shop and was offered the fair price that craigsub and Ear mentioned. So I bought from him. And maybe one day I'll buy it a friend! :)

Someone above asked for picuters, here are few plus my room setup.

http://crazyphotoguy.com/sub1.jpg

http://crazyphotoguy.com/sub2.jpg

http://crazyphotoguy.com/sub3.jpg

http://crazyphotoguy.com/sub4.jpg

My equipment list:

Marantz VP12S3 Projector
--------------------------------------
Krell Showcase Processor
--------------------------------------
Krell FPB 350 MCX 3 Mono Block’s (Left/Center/Right)
Krell Showcase 5 Channel for Surround Channels

-------------------------------------
DVD Player – Marantz DV9500
-------------------------------------
Dali Suite – 2.8 L/R
Dali Suite - C0.8 Center
Dali Suite - R0.8 Rear and Sides
JL Audio F113

Matthew

Some information regarding Exxon.

In 2005, sales totaled $359 Billion.
Gross Profits were $59 Billion.
Federal Taxes Paid were $23 Billion
Net Profit was $36 Billion.

That is not quite a 100% profit margin.

Ok ... Back to ripping the price on Fathom 113's ... The typical asking price seems to be about $2500.

Does anyone think the dealer is getting rich on this ?
$2500 is a fair price.

$2500 is a fair price.

I have not heard one, but I have ben listening to jl audio car subs since before they became Jl audio...( over 15 years ago). I will never buy one because lucky for me, I find it possible to enjoy subwoofers costing a 1/3 of that....but I find it hard to believe that you are really getting $2500 worht of bass out of one of these guys...especially with so many reports of people wanting to purchase a second one. JMO :cool: Don't get me wrong...it looks sexy as hell, and maybe if I would hear one i would want one...but with SO many other options at SO much less money...i think I will pass.
:cool:

I have not heard one, but I have ben listening to jl audio car subs since before they became Jl audio...( over 15 years ago). I will never buy one because lucky for me, I find it possible to enjoy subwoofers costing a 1/3 of that....but I find it hard to believe that you are really getting $2500 worht of bass out of one of these guys...especially with so many reports of people wanting to purchase a second one. JMO :cool: Don't get me wrong...it looks sexy as hell, and maybe if I would hear one i would want one...but with SO many other options at SO much less money...i think I will pass.
:cool:
There are others here who think it is worth a lot more than that :D. Personally, I wouldn't pay a penny more than $2500 and because of that some here get a heart-burn when I speak out.

Thanks bob.

Has anyone actually used the fathom with a relaqtively high crossover?

There are others here who think it is worth a lot more than that :D. Personally, I wouldn't pay a penny more than $2500 and because of that some here get a heart-burn when I speak out.


My brother is a JL dealer...i am sure he does not have acess to this sub..but I may shoot him an email and see what he says about "dealer cost" and if he can get one to demo :D

I'm trying to figure the relative size of the sub. Is that a 50"or 60" display in the picture? Thanks.

That is 60" Pioneer PDP-6070HD.

I have not heard one, but I have ben listening to jl audio car subs since before they became Jl audio...( over 15 years ago). I will never buy one because lucky for me, I find it possible to enjoy subwoofers costing a 1/3 of that....but I find it hard to believe that you are really getting $2500 worht of bass out of one of these guys...especially with so many reports of people wanting to purchase a second one. JMO :cool: Don't get me wrong...it looks sexy as hell, and maybe if I would hear one i would want one...but with SO many other options at SO much less money...i think I will pass.
:cool:

If you listen to one, you will want one.

If you listen to one, you will want one.
...and you will be willing to sell your kidney to own one. LOL!
Just kidding here, so don't take me too seriously :D

Here is something fun to play with. Just saw this in the shack forum
http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/home-audio-subwoofers/2509-highest-level-lfe-1-a.html

Check it out and report back. I will try to rent the movie this week myself.

I have not heard one, but I have ben listening to jl audio car subs since before they became Jl audio...( over 15 years ago). I will never buy one because lucky for me, I find it possible to enjoy subwoofers costing a 1/3 of that....but I find it hard to believe that you are really getting $2500 worht of bass out of one of these guys...especially with so many reports of people wanting to purchase a second one. JMO :cool: Don't get me wrong...it looks sexy as hell, and maybe if I would hear one i would want one...but with SO many other options at SO much less money...i think I will pass.
:cool:

I think one of the reasons people get two is so they can daisy chain them. It's a really cool feature. I think you can daisy chain up to 10. You set which one you want to be master and which one you want to be the slave. The master controls both. Trust me when I say one F113 is plenty. But why just get one when you can have two? :D

...and you will be willing to sell your kidney to own one. LOL!
Just kidding here, so don't take me too seriously :D

whats funny is going to the "subwoofer forum and seeing this thread right on top of the $300 eD subwoofer thread....and both camps love thier subs. Maybe a blind test is in order :D

Here is the latest eDi owners opinion of his new subwoofer:

I was worried about the size of the room but the sound is great. Fills the listening area more than adequetely. Ive read about guys having problems hooking it up but I just plugged my rca into one of the ins and waalaa.
Im not an audiophile and am not apologizing for my lack of knoledge but the sound to my untrained ears is jaw dropping. Deep and tight. My father was down for some Transporter 2 and became worried that with the deep shaking lows that the house might settle more and crack the sheetrock. Problems like that I dont mind. My only complaint would be the utilitarian finish. I have put it between the small couch on the right and the door leading into the equip. room. Kind of out of sight. I think a nice cherry finish might look better in some applications but for the price Im willing to be completely satisfied with the black finish. I think now that after I buy my Onkyo receiver I will opt for the eD speaker package.

I think one of the reasons people get two is so they can daisy chain them. It's a really cool feature. I think you can daisy chain up to 10. You set which one you want to be master and which one you want to be the slave. The master controls both. Trust me when I say one F113 is plenty. But why just get one when you can have two? :D
Just to add to this, with every sub you add, you get additional headroom with diminishing returns (log scale). The best bang for the buck is 2 subs (+6dB) co-located. Check out this thread Multiple subs (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=800497&page=1&pp=10&highlight=extrapolations)

whats funny is going to the "subwoofer forum and seeing this thread right on top of the $300 eD subwoofer thread....and both camps love thier subs. Maybe a blind test is in order :D

Here is the latest eDi owners opinion of his new subwoofer:

I was worried about the size of the room but the sound is great. Fills the listening area more than adequetely. Ive read about guys having problems hooking it up but I just plugged my rca into one of the ins and waalaa.
Im not an audiophile and am not apologizing for my lack of knoledge but the sound to my untrained ears is jaw dropping. Deep and tight. My father was down for some Transporter 2 and became worried that with the deep shaking lows that the house might settle more and crack the sheetrock. Problems like that I dont mind. My only complaint would be the utilitarian finish. I have put it between the small couch on the right and the door leading into the equip. room. Kind of out of sight. I think a nice cherry finish might look better in some applications but for the price Im willing to be completely satisfied with the black finish. I think now that after I buy my Onkyo receiver I will opt for the eD speaker package.
You bring up an interesting point. I travel international more than the average person here and I was raised in a different culture. When I am in some remote part of the world with not much modern conveniences, for more than 3 weeks, I begin appreciating little things like a boom box, that I normally wouldn't when I am home. Same with cars. With something at home where I can do 0-60 in less than 6 seconds that occassionally still feels a little slow, after 3 weeks outside the country I begin appreciating cars that would belong to slow lanes here. I think it is all relative. The human body is so amazingly adaptable, when we have more, we want more, when we have less, we learn to live with it. As my grandpa used to say "when a horse is left in a sea shore, it will start to learn how to live on fish".

At the end of the day, what matters is "are you happy with what you have". If so, you are a winner.

I've been trying to put picture of my stuff here for the longest time,and I can't! I just down loaded a pic of my F113 on my photo gallery I heard there is a way to link it to our pots.
How the hell you do that????

I'll be moving my system around in a few weeks getting some new speakers,and would like to post pics in the near future...So f***ing difficult to do so.

I have not heard one, but I have ben listening to jl audio car subs since before they became Jl audio...( over 15 years ago). I will never buy one because lucky for me, I find it possible to enjoy subwoofers costing a 1/3 of that....but I find it hard to believe that you are really getting $2500 worht of bass out of one of these guys...especially with so many reports of people wanting to purchase a second one. JMO :cool: Don't get me wrong...it looks sexy as hell, and maybe if I would hear one i would want one...but with SO many other options at SO much less money...i think I will pass.
:cool:

I would never buy a Benz because I could buy 3 Civics for the price of it and I would have to buy a second car to drive in the winter anyway... :rolleyes:

The second one isn't because the first one doesn't have enough output, it makes smoother bass in the listening room and makes me feel like a REAL man. :cool:

Just to add to this, with every sub you add, you get additional headroom with diminishing returns (log scale). The best bang for the buck is 2 subs (+6dB) co-located. Check out this thread Multiple subs (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=800497&page=1&pp=10&highlight=extrapolations)

Will hopefully be able to get a second one in the next year, but I have to wait until we furnish our new house.

Thanks bob.

Has anyone actually used the fathom with a relaqtively high crossover?

Bob. IMHO any subwoofer crossed over too high will not sound right. It will cease being a subwoofer.

I have always crossed over between 60Hz and 80Hz and have been dissatisfied on anything at 100Hz or over. I have tried this with several subs in several rooms in different positions.

Bob. IMHO any subwoofer crossed over too high will not sound right. It will cease being a subwoofer.

I have always crossed over between 60Hz and 80Hz and have been dissatisfied on anything at 100Hz or over. I have tried this with several subs in several rooms in different positions.

Definitely true, if you have to cross higher than 80Hz your money would be better spent buying new mains....

I've been trying to put picture of my stuff here for the longest time,and I can't! I just down loaded a pic of my F113 on my photo gallery I heard there is a way to link it to our pots.
How the hell you do that????

I'll be moving my system around in a few weeks getting some new speakers,and would like to post pics in the near future...So f***ing difficult to do so.

Just click on "manage attachements" under the text box. Then hit browse and direct it to the file in your computer where the picture you want to download is.

John,

You might be able to add a JL subwoofer to an Xd system, but you must do it with a surround processor and even then the integration isn't going to be correct. The DSP processing in the XdA has about 8.5ms of latency. When you set up the Xd system in your processor, you set the L and R to full range. Then connect the JL to the subwoofer output. Add an extra 8.5ms of delay on top of what the actual distance delay for the JL is. The JL will only receive the LFE channel when playing back 5.1 sources. When playing back 2 channel sources, it will probably receive no signal, but that is a function of your processor. When everything is working, the bass integration will be ok, but never great.

A better solution would be to get the Xd system with two XdWs and install the 20Hz filter set in the XdA. This will give you more low bass output, better imaging, smoother bass response and perfect integration.

Definitely true, if you have to cross higher than 80Hz your money would be better spent buying new mains....
I am not sure I completely agree. Assume a case where your mains can go pretty low, say down to 30 or 25Hz flat. The conventional straightforward way of settting it would be to choose an octave about it (60Hz) and set the main FL and FR highpass to 60Hz and the subwoofer lowpass to also 60Hz and then you try to blend them with eq etc.

An alternative would be to set the main FL and FR highpass to as low as 40Hz and set the subwoofer to say 100Hz. The f113 is pretty flat to 100Hz according to measurements here (http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/home-audio-subwoofers/2660-jl-audio-fathom-f113-ground-plane-results.html).

When you set the subwoofer lowpass to 60Hz, as I understand, anything above 60Hz in the .1 LFE is "LOST". Is that true? I don't think anything above 60Hz in the .1 LFE gets split and rerouted to the FL and FR mains set to 60Hz. Please correct me if my understanding is incorrect. I could be wrong here because this is based on reading that I did a couple of years ago, so I don't recall and I think it will also depend on the pre-amp receiver. The .1 LFE also as I recall had a brickwall stop at some frequency like 120Hz. Please chime in if you have more info here.

On the other hand, there is the argument that anything above 80Hz is localizable. If so, so what? So be it. That is what the mastering was intended for. I'd rather capture the higher frequencies than lose them. However, how capable is your sub above 60Hz is a question to be asked. And also, you may rather free up the sub of higher frequencies so it can do the lower ones better. But if you had duals and very capable subs, this maybe worth experimenting. As John said, above 80Hz it would no longer be a subwoofer in the literal sense. However, it may still do a good job. This needs experimentation and will depend on what each individual case is (room, equipment etc).

...

When you set the subwoofer lowpass to 60Hz, as I understand, anything above 60Hz in the .1 LFE is "LOST". Is that true? I don't think anything above 60Hz in the .1 LFE gets split and rerouted to the FL and FR mains set to 60Hz. Please correct me if my understanding is incorrect. I could be wrong here because this is based on reading that I did a couple of years ago, so I don't recall and I think it will also depend on the pre-amp receiver. The .1 LFE also as I recall had a brickwall stop at some frequency like 120Hz. Please chime in if you have more info here.


It won't be really "lost". Crossing over at 60Hz means that at that frequency the response will begin tapering off. Depending on the slope of the crossover or crossovers the tapering off or slope could be at 6dB, 12db or steeper per octave (I have seen slopes as high as 36dB/octave). Lets take 6dB as an example. A 120Hz tone will be 6dB down in level from the 60Hz tone but it will still be there. There are no brickwall subwoofer crossovers out there, nor do you want them. Generally speaking (it depends on the speakers as well as their location)) a crossover of 12dB per octave or even steeper is desirable. You can, available in certain setups, use different slope and even different frequencies on the mains and the sub. This can help in providing a seemless blend or transition between the two. My personal preference is to use a rather steep crossover on the sub (12/18dB starting at 80Hz and use a 6dB per octave on the mains.

In any event most LFE is below 60Hz.

BTW most subs have no problem going to 100Hz and even higher.

It won't be really "lost". Crossing over at 60Hz means that at that frequency the response will begin tapering off. Depending on the slope of the crossover or crossovers the tapering off or slope could be at 6dB, 12db or steeper per octave (I have seen slopes as high as 36dB/octave). Lets take 6dB as an example. A 120Hz tone will be 6dB down in level from the 60Hz tone but it will still be there. There are no brickwall subwoofer crossovers out there, nor do you want them. Generally speaking (it depends on the speakers as well as their location)) a crossover of 12dB per octave or even steeper is desirable. You can, available in certain setups, use different slope and even different frequencies on the mains and the sub. This can help in providing a seemless blend or transition between the two. My personal preference is to use a rather steep crossover on the sub (12/18dB starting at 80Hz and use a 6dB per octave on the mains.

In any event most LFE is below 60Hz.

BTW most subs have no problem going to 100Hz and even higher.
I already know that crossovers are not brickwalls and I understand the various order slopes very well. The brickwall I am talking about is the one in the .1 LFE recording, not playback. Usually the subwoofer xovers in pre-amps receivers are
very steep. In my Anthem it is a 4th order (24dB/Octave). The greater the slope, the higher the loss if the frequencies above the crossover at not split and sent to the mains. So are they split and sent to FL and FR or are they attenuated only based on the slope.

Just click on "manage attachements" under the text box. Then hit browse and direct it to the file in your computer where the picture you want to download is.


Thanks John,I'll see if it works one more time once I get home.

djoel

The Misunderstood .1 LFE channel (http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_7_2/feature-article-misunderstood-lfe-channel-april-2000.html) is the article I had in mind.

Excerpt ..
"Dolby Digital's LFE channel carries additional bass information from 120 Hz on down. This is not a roll-off but a digital brick wall (i.e., no 121 Hz info), so the content is usually rolled off by the sound engineer starting around 80 Hz for a smoother blend. "

I would never buy a Benz because I could buy 3 Civics for the price of it and I would have to buy a second car to drive in the winter anyway... :rolleyes:

The second one isn't because the first one doesn't have enough output, it makes smoother bass in the listening room and makes me feel like a REAL man. :cool:

I think a more realistic analogy would be 3 MB's for the price of one bentley.:D

Anyone with a dealer recommendation near San Jose, CA?

My attempts to contact and speak directly with someone at ANY of the three listed on the JL Audio website have so far been fruitless. One is in San Jose, one is in San Francisco, the last in Oakland. I have no desire to make the drive (particularly the last two) if I can't even connect by phone.

Anyone with a dealer recommendation near San Jose, CA?

My attempts to contact and speak directly with someone at ANY of the three listed on the JL Audio website have so far been fruitless. One is in San Jose, one is in San Francisco, the last in Oakland. I have no desire to make the drive (particularly the last two) if I can't even connect by phone.
I highly recommend GE Technology in Oakland. I used him for both my F113 and Earthquake Cinenova amp purchases. Please tell Greg (the owner) that Vishal referred you to him.

hometheater mag has a review of the jl this issue (april ).

The Misunderstood .1 LFE channel (http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_7_2/feature-article-misunderstood-lfe-channel-april-2000.html) is the article I had in mind.

Excerpt ..
"Dolby Digital's LFE channel carries additional bass information from 120 Hz on down. This is not a roll-off but a digital brick wall (i.e., no 121 Hz info), so the content is usually rolled off by the sound engineer starting around 80 Hz for a smoother blend. "
My question is if the sound engineer has already carefully thought about the roll-off starting at 80Hz for a smoother blend. Why not bypass the sub Xover rather than forcing our own? By the same argument, why was not the brickwall set at 80Hz rather than 120Hz?

Food for thought.

I think a more realistic analogy would be 3 MB's for the price of one bentley.:D

Sure... pricing is all relative. The Fathom is certainly on the expensive end of the spectrum, but there are many subs priced about the same and a lot higher than an f113 as well.

Paradigm Reference Signature Servo is $3,200
Genelec HTS4B is $3,750
Aerial Acoustics SW12 is $4600
Velodyne DD18 is $5000
REL Studio III is $9,000
JM Lab Sub Utopia Be is $8,500
Wilson Watch Dog is $11,000
Krell Master Reference is $28,000

Some might consider the f113 a really good value in this company. It's all relative.

In the future, you can expect to see some more affordable subwoofers in the JL Audio lineup.

Best regards,

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.

What are the requirements for the f113 to turn on when set to auto?

Mine is not turning on when set to auto. If I flip it to on then leave it on auto it appears to stay on but the next day it does it again. I thought at first it needed to have a 5.1 signal for some reason but I just tried batman begins from hbo hd and it was 5.1 and after a few minutes it still did not turn on.

Sure... pricing is all relative. The Fathom is certainly on the expensive end of the spectrum, but there are many subs priced about the same and a lot higher than an f113 as well.

Paradigm Reference Signature Servo is $3,200
Genelec HTS4B is $3,750
Aerial Acoustics SW12 is $4600
Velodyne DD18 is $5000
REL Studio III is $9,000
JM Lab Sub Utopia Be is $8,500
Wilson Watch Dog is $11,000
Krell Master Reference is $28,000

Some might consider the f113 a really good value in this company. It's all relative.

In the future, you can expect to see some more affordable subwoofers in the JL Audio lineup.

Best regards,

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.

Manville...you sure have come a LONG way from the $50 8w2...congrats for sure!!!! :cool:

Manville, just checked out you guy's latest Sub technology on your website, the Thin line Subwoofer. Very neat idea. You could make some kickass slimline Home speakers with this driver. I see the exursion is somewhat limited and didn't see the frequency range in the recommended box size. Could you elaborate? http://mobile.jlaudio.com/jlaudio_pages.php?page_id=213

Have you thought about developing a cheaper home sub with the guts of your 500/1 Slash amp coupled to a 12 or 13W6v2 in a nice box with maybe different colors of wood laminate?

hometheater mag has a review of the jl this issue (april ).


Great I have a subscription with them,I guess I'll be reading that issue mid May!

Is it going to be the F113?

Djoel

What are the requirements for the f113 to turn on when set to auto?

Mine is not turning on when set to auto. If I flip it to on then leave it on auto it appears to stay on but the next day it does it again. I thought at first it needed to have a 5.1 signal for some reason but I just tried batman begins from hbo hd and it was 5.1 and after a few minutes it still did not turn on.


Mine is alway on,it doesn't turn off :confused: I have turn it off manually :(

Djoel

Ok folks!
It finally arrived. And here are the pics. Quickly hooked it up, and fired up some music with really deep bass. I don't know how many of you have heard "Le temps passe" and this little heavy beautiful thing lives up to it's reputation. Too early to do any comparison between the DTS-20 and the f113 but I am very very very impressed with how it sounds. Amazing little unit. My wife saw it and the first thing she said was "Wow" and there was this priceless smile. Bad news is after hearing some house shaking, the question came "so do you really need two" :D.
To avoid any such questions, I am going to play low key. Will try to post a comparison between the DTS-20 and this but no promises. I no longer have the time and energy to do detailed comparisons and post my opinons here as they always result in a lot of conflict and drains me. Long story short, this unit is a keeper and so will the second f113. I am a happy man :). I think my long drawn search had ended and I won't think about subwoofers for another few years. Did I really say that. Ok, I will think about subwoofers, but I won't buy another one in the near future. More to come later....

I contacted my local dealer....they are running a hot special right now

$0 off MSRP!!!

If I were to purchase a f113 from my authorized dealer it would be the first time in my entire life I've paid FULLL MSRP. I guess when you got the hottest product out there you can do what you want. :rolleyes:


I feel as though I need to apologize for this previous post...I was trying to be sarcastic and funny...well I was contacted by the 2nd of 3 dealers in my area and they are asking for $3600!!!! but "it's a good deal because it includes shipping and tax" Tax would take MSRP of 3200+259=$3459! So they are actually charging over MSRP for the F113. I am afraid to contact the 3 authorized dealer...they may want 4k ;) I know a few are available over the internet for cheaper but I would like the local professional touch when I am paying this much for a product. Having custom installers as dealers is great I'm sure for their knowledge base and expertise, I can even see them giving good prices to those who purchase whole systems or rooms, but for the small time consumer like myself, the experience has been less than exciting/satisfactory. I wanted one badly but I've become disheartened with the search, I can drive to the local HT shop, without an appointment, and receive great personal service on auditioning a DD-15, choose to buy it, and take it home for less than MSRP or above. Sorry for the whining...I think I'm done now :o

While the JL113 is an excellent sounding sub, the prices are much too high for what they are. The initial frenzy will die down soon enough especially when the other new subwoofers are introduced later this year. I like this sub but I like $3600 in my jeans more. :p Jl Audio would be wise to rethink their long term distribution strategy vis a vis direct and online sales if they want to build a large repeatable customer base while they have an winner in their introductory home product line. Other great new subs besides this one are on the horizon.

Sorry dude. $2550 is the wrong number :p. I got it for less.
Then you got a smokin' deal. I paid $2475 for the satin and thought I got a good deal.

While the JL113 is an excellent sounding sub, the prices are much too high for what they are. The initial frenzy will die down soon enough especially when the other new subwoofers are introduced later this year. I like this sub but I like $3600 in my jeans more. :p Jl Audio would be wise to rethink their long term distribution strategy vis a vis direct and online sales if they want to build a large repeatable customer base while they have an winner in their introductory home product line. Other great new subs besides this one are on the horizon.

The only problem with your argument is that one who is going to drop $3600 on a subwoofer is not really worried about the cost of the thing. The cost becomes secondary to the desire to have this in his house. I can honestly see the attraction....its a damn sexy box, and if money was not an issue for me I may decide that a couple of them would make me happy too. In the mean time my $159 NHT1259 in a home made box mounted under my floor and powered by a $200 amp has made me happy for 7 years :D I can afford much more than this, but never felt the need. Althought lately a 15" TC Sound 2000 has caught my eye for a grand total of $299 shipped :D

This thread stopped being usefull about 1000 replies ago...

New proud owner of an F113, it is now 4 days old and still loving it.

Matthew

DELETED

I highly recommend GE Technology in Oakland. I used him for both my F113 and Earthquake Cinenova amp purchases. Please tell Greg (the owner) that Vishal referred you to him.


Thanks. Maybe I'll give him another try by phone, tomorrow. If I talk to Greg I will mention that you referred me.

This I paid he paid who paid crap is really getting old!!! :(

Move on already.

Does anyone have an in room frequency response chart of their actual setup? If so, please post giving details about your installation such as room size, etc.

I've already seen the one by JL. Please don't repost that one.

This I paid he paid who paid crap is really getting old!!! :(

Move on already.
Took your advise. Deleted and moving on.

This I paid he paid who paid crap is really getting old!!! :(

Move on already.


Over $1000 difference from customer A to customer B from authorized retailers in their local areas. I will be moving on to another product until these issues are worked out. Again this caliber of product should be purchased locally especially when you live in a large city such as myself >2,000,000 people. Have you ever wondered why a lot of high end product in other industries are price controlled across the country? Because it helps keep customer B happy. If I go buy a f113 for X and customer A purchases the same product for X -44% you get the idea. When this hypesteria ends and things have calmed down I will be back.

You absolutely nailed it RMK!, bravo!!

Hello Strawman...please call me, I would be happy to help you!

Thank you Vishal!!

Manville, just checked out you guy's latest Sub technology on your website, the Thin line Subwoofer. Very neat idea. You could make some kickass slimline Home speakers with this driver. I see the exursion is somewhat limited and didn't see the frequency range in the recommended box size. Could you elaborate? http://mobile.jlaudio.com/jlaudio_pages.php?page_id=213

Have you thought about developing a cheaper home sub with the guts of your 500/1 Slash amp coupled to a 12 or 13W6v2 in a nice box with maybe different colors of wood laminate?

The Thin-Line woofer platform was developed with home in-wall applications in mind. We have already announced that this is in the works, so I can share that. We should have details later this year. The excursion is pretty darned good considering the mounting depth, but is obviously not in "W7 land". :)

As for the other thing... we'll have to wait and see. ;)

It's been pretty intense here so here is something to lighten up :D

What are the requirements for the f113 to turn on when set to auto?

Mine is not turning on when set to auto. If I flip it to on then leave it on auto it appears to stay on but the next day it does it again. I thought at first it needed to have a 5.1 signal for some reason but I just tried batman begins from hbo hd and it was 5.1 and after a few minutes it still did not turn on.

Hi, Shep.

You are not the only one who has had difficulty with the auto turn on not being sensitive enough. We're kind of baffled by it since we did test it pretty thoroughly with a few different source units.... but since several have complained about it, we would like to look into it further.

If you own an f112 or an f113 and you are having difficulty with auto turn on, please send me an e-mail with the following information.

Name and e-mail address:
Model owned (f112 or f113):
Brand and Model of Receiver or PrePro:
Connection (Balanced XLR or Unbalanced RCA):
Subwoofer Level on Receiver or PrePro:
Master Level setting on Fathom:
Any comments you might have:

My e-mail is msmith@MYCOMPANYNAME.com

By the way, there is no harm in leaving the Fathom turned on all the time other than a bit more power consumption, but we would like to learn more from those experiencing problems with the auto turn-on feature.

Best regards,

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.

Mr. Smith,
Is there a need for an external subsonic (high pass) filter or is there an internal highpass filter that takes care of this?
Thanks,
-Jai

Mr. Smith,
Is there a need for an external subsonic (high pass) filter or is there an internal highpass filter that takes care of this?
Thanks,
-Jai

Not sure I understand the question, jmcomp.

takes care of what?

The only problem with your argument is that one who is going to drop $3600 on a subwoofer is not really worried about the cost of the thing. The cost becomes secondary to the desire to have this in his house. I can honestly see the attraction....its a damn sexy box, and if money was not an issue for me I may decide that a couple of them would make me happy too.

I think it's the principle. As mentioned, nobody likes to pay a lot more than the next guy. It's all about getting a fair price. The difference between $2400 and $3600 street prices people are seeing is huge. I mean, I could definitely consider it for $2400 but $3600 becomes too much.

My question is if the sound engineer has already carefully thought about the roll-off starting at 80Hz for a smoother blend. Why not bypass the sub Xover rather than forcing our own? By the same argument, why was not the brickwall set at 80Hz rather than 120Hz?

Food for thought.

One reason that comes to mind is that in the 2 channel Stereo mode for instance the rerouted bass to the sub would need the processor's or sub's crossover.

I think the brickwall was specked on the high side for the "fudge factor".
Had they set the brickwall at 90Hz, let's say. Some mixer, along the line, would have argued that he had a 92Hz effect he could not use. By placing the brickwall filter well outside the area you avoid this possible pitfall.

Not sure I understand the question, jmcomp.

takes care of what?
I mean, is there a subsonic filter built in that takes care of filtering subsonic material that cannot be handled? Example, there are movie passages out there that have material going down to single digits. The f113 is designed for 15Hz and higher (I believe), so it would make sense to put a subsonic filter in the path set at 16Hz (as an example) if such a filter is not built-in.

The only problem with your argument is that one who is going to drop $3600 on a subwoofer is not really worried about the cost of the thing. The cost becomes secondary to the desire to have this in his house...

I have to dissagree here. Anybody here shopped for the best price on a Rolex or a Lexus?

Most of those that can afford expensive items did not achieve monetary wealth by not being careful with their money. Why pay $3600 for an item when you can get it for $2600?

I mean, is there a subsonic filter built in that takes care of filtering subsonic material that cannot be handled? Example, there are movie passages out there that have material going down to single digits. The f113 is designed for 15Hz and higher (I believe), so it would make sense to put a subsonic filter in the path set at 16Hz (as an example) if such a filter is not built-in.

For some reason I thought you were talking about the auto turn-on issue. Sorry.

I really can't get into detail regarding the Fathoms' hard-coded processing. Suffice it to say, you won't hurt the subwoofer if you play material with extremely low bass and you don't need additional protection.

Best regards,

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.

While the JL113 is an excellent sounding sub, the prices are much too high for what they are. Other great new subs besides this one are on the horizon.

Surprised to hear this from a high-roller like you John! :eek:

Your Velodyne dd18 wasn't exactly cheap. It's different when you buy something new vs used because your value will drop the minute you take it out of the box...kinda like driving the MB off the dealership lot. :)

There's always going to be a new contender just like the Godfather flics, keeps things interesting.

For many, me included, these are likely to be a "final" sub or 2...not many products I can say that about.

P.S. Do you have a laptop on the ski hills to type your responses? :D

I have to dissagree here. Anybody here shopped for the best price on a Rolex or a Lexus?

Most of those that can afford expensive items did not achieve monetary wealth by not being careful with their money. Why pay $3600 for an item when you can get it for $2600?

My sentiments as well. :) I've been fortunate so I can afford to buy pretty well what I want without a second thought. However I will not overpay regardless of the item. Its predictable that the JL113s that were being sold online at around $2500 are no longer available. That's where the price point for this quality sub should be given the pricing on other competitive products. Looks like a classic case of short term margin vs long term market share and profit.

Hi Asher. Yup I take my laptop to the hills. No offense meant on my pricing comment. As you know I really like this sub but the pricing appears to opportunistic right now.

I think it's the principle. As mentioned, nobody likes to pay a lot more than the next guy. It's all about getting a fair price. The difference between $2400 and $3600 street prices people are seeing is huge. I mean, I could definitely consider it for $2400 but $3600 becomes too much.

My gosh, this is the free market system. It happens every day for almost every product. You can take the easy way and just pay the price that is asked by someone or you can work at finding someone who is willing to sell the product at a lower price. Sometimes that just takes a lot of effort. Depends on how important it is to you.

Ray

JL has put out what appears to be a bit of a break-thru product performance-wise...for now. Six months from now, the scenery may be altogether different. There will be some very high performance products on the market from SVS and Seaton (via AV123) which might match the performance of the f113 at a considerably lower MSRP. You could even see some new unexpected products from some unexpected competition. Who knows? Why would the competitors stand still? The answer is: They won't.

We welcome good competition and consider ourselves very blessed to be in the position we are in after such a short time in the home audio biz.

We won't be standing still, either. :)

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.

That's the spirit! And it's all good for us sub-humans.

Sure... pricing is all relative. The Fathom is certainly on the expensive end of the spectrum, but there are many subs priced about the same and a lot higher than an f113 as well.

Paradigm Reference Signature Servo is $3,200
Genelec HTS4B is $3,750
Aerial Acoustics SW12 is $4600
Velodyne DD18 is $5000
REL Studio III is $9,000
JM Lab Sub Utopia Be is $8,500
Wilson Watch Dog is $11,000
Krell Master Reference is $28,000

Some might consider the f113 a really good value in this company. It's all relative.

In the future, you can expect to see some more affordable subwoofers in the JL Audio lineup.

Best regards,

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.
Mr. Smith,
Right from the first time, I started researching the f113, I had issues with the pricing. Let me clarify, it is not simply because I think the item is over priced. It is more of the disparity in pricing that concerns me. You mention some top tier products in this post. Let's take the Krell Master Reference as an example. Almost any person who buys that sub buys it with a "money no object" outlook. So they would gladly pay $28K for a world-class product. Now the next day if they find out that someone else bought the same product for $18K, do you think they will be happy with their purchase? That is exactly what is going on with your product. Being such an amazing piece of work, a lot of people may overlook the pricing. But with such disparity comes a lack of confidence which with time will begin to hurt the reputation of your company. If everyone paid $3300, I would have been perfectly fine paying that amount. But I really don't know if I would have bought the f113 at that price even if the pricing was unilateral. At that price point a few other very good competitors come into play. I really hope my comments will be taken in a positive sense.
Sincerely,
-Jai

Does anyone have an in room frequency response chart of their actual setup? If so, please post giving details about your installation such as room size, etc.

I've already seen the one by JL. Please don't repost that one.
Here are some charts from my system. Some system details first:

DVD Player: Oppo 971
Preamp: Outlaw 990
Amp: Earthquake Cinenova Grande 7 (black)
Fronts: Gallo Reference 3.1s (Silver/black)
Center: Gallo Reference AV Center
Rears: Gallo Due (all black)
Sub: JL Audio Fathom F113 (satin), placed just inside front-left speaker
Projector: Infocus SP5000
Screen: 106" Graywolf
Room type: Living Room open to Dining Room/Kitchen
Dimensions: 16' W x 15' D x 8' H (no right wall so true width is almost 26')

Now for the charts. I normally cross my fronts at 40Hz, these charts represent a 100Hz crossover in my preamp. Measurements taken with an RS Digital SPL meter, SB Live External Sound card, and REW software.

The first chart shows in-room response with ARO bypassed:
http://www.benzandbeamer.com/~vishal/images/sub1.jpg

The second chart shows in-room response with ARO enabled:
http://www.benzandbeamer.com/~vishal/images/sub2.jpg

The third and final chart shows in-room response with ARO enabled and ELF trim at +3:
http://www.benzandbeamer.com/~vishal/images/sub3.jpg

I consider myself fairly lucky to have a very acceptable bass response with no room treatment (yet). I was using a BFD with my old SVS sub and was able to get an even flatter response. Here is that chart to compare (shown with a 60Hz xover):
http://www.benzandbeamer.com/~vishal/images/freq_resp.jpg

I have not decided whether I want to invest in another parametric EQ for the Fathom as it sounds quite good as it is. I will post some system pictures in a few days.

For some reason I thought you were talking about the auto turn-on issue. Sorry.

I really can't get into detail regarding the Fathoms' hard-coded processing. Suffice it to say, you won't hurt the subwoofer if you play material with extremely low bass and you don't need additional protection.

Best regards,

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.
Thanks for the clarification. However, will using an external subsonic filter (16Hz or 20Hz) maximize it's performance?
The ELF control is more of a single band EQ and not necessarily a performance enhancer but more of a tailor.

Here are some charts from my system. Some system details first:

DVD Player: Oppo 971
Preamp: Outlaw 990
Amp: Earthquake Cinenova Grande 7 (black)
Fronts: Gallo Reference 3.1s (Silver/black)
Center: Gallo Reference AV Center
Rears: Gallo Due (all black)
Sub: JL Audio Fathom F113 (satin), placed just inside front-left speaker
Projector: Infocus SP5000
Screen: 106" Graywolf
Room type: Living Room open to Dining Room/Kitchen
Dimensions: 16' W x 15' D x 8' H (no right wall so true width is almost 26')

Now for the charts. I normally cross my fronts at 40Hz, these charts represent a 100Hz crossover in my preamp. Measurements taken with an RS Digital SPL meter, SB Live External Sound card, and REW software.
The second chart shows in-room response with ARO enabled:
http://www.benzandbeamer.com/~vishal/images/sub2.jpg

The third and final chart shows in-room response with ARO enabled and ELF trim at +3:
http://www.benzandbeamer.com/~vishal/images/sub3.jpg
I have not decided whether I want to invest in another parametric EQ for the Fathom as it sounds quite good as it is. I will post some system pictures in a few days.
Vishal,
The ARO being automatic can only do so much. You have almost a -6 or -8dB drop (ARO and ELF) at 20Hz compared to other freq which in my mind is significant. I would get a PEQ and tame the peaks. Room treatment helps but not much with such low frequencies. By far the GIK tri-traps help a bit but not much with FR issues like this. Have you tried moving your sub to get more lower frequency energy?

No offense meant on my pricing comment. As you know I really like this sub but the pricing appears to opportunistic right now.

No offense taken, I'm not a fanboy. ;)

I'm just not sure what the basis of your (and other people) price issue is. A few people have said that it's "worth" $2500...where did that number come from? I'm sure it was pulled out of someone's... :rolleyes: I consider this sub in the same league as the DD18, Aerial SW12 etc..., and as you know those subs list for significantly more cash.

If this sub listed for $2500 people would complain that it wasn't $2000. If it was $2000 they would say $1500...yadda yadda

Heh heh, I'm just waiting for the Ear's 0.02 :p

I agree with the poster a few lines back...let's get this thread back on track about people's experiences and anecdotes rather than dwelling on price issues.

My twin subs are sitting in the closet waiting for the basement to be finished. :(

Bogg out

Thanks for the clarification. However, will using an external subsonic filter (16Hz or 20Hz) maximize it's performance?
No.

The ELF control is more of a single band EQ and not necessarily a performance enhancer but more of a tailor.

That is correct... it is intended to reduce bloat in small rooms and/or prevent rattles in rooms with loose objects.

Have you tried moving your sub to get more lower frequency energy?
That is the next project. Hopefully some small movements will result in smoother extension.

Mr. Smith,
Right from the first time, I started researching the f113, I had issues with the pricing. Let me clarify, it is not simply because I think the item is over priced. It is more of the disparity in pricing that concerns me. You mention some top tier products in this post. Let's take the Krell Master Reference as an example. Almost any person who buys that sub buys it with a "money no object" outlook. So they would gladly pay $28K for a world-class product. Now the next day if they find out that someone else bought the same product for $18K, do you think they will be happy with their purchase? That is exactly what is going on with your product. Being such an amazing piece of work, a lot of people may overlook the pricing. But with such disparity comes a lack of confidence which with time will begin to hurt the reputation of your company. If everyone paid $3300, I would have been perfectly fine paying that amount. But I really don't know if I would have bought the f113 at that price even if the pricing was unilateral. At that price point a few other very good competitors come into play. I really hope my comments will be taken in a positive sense.
Sincerely,
-Jai

I don't take any offense at your comments, Jai.. but to be fair, I don't think everyone pays $28k for the Krell or $5k for the DD-18. Just like Velodyne and Krell, we set an MSRP for the product that is a guideline for retail pricing, but is not a set selling price.
In other words, we cannot dictate retail pricing to our retailers... it is up to them to set the actual selling price.

So-called unilateral pricing agreements are based on a retailer's agreement to voluntarily adhere to a given price or be terminated.. this might work for very large, powerful well-established brands like Apple or Bose, but they are the exception rather than the rule because most retailers don't want to be restricted in this way and won't sign them unless the brand is overwhelmingly important. You can't selectively have some dealers under unilateral and others under open pricing, either. It's all or none.

Best regards,

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.

That is the next project. Hopefully some small movements will result in smoother extension.

Yes, I would be curious to see results from other positions, Vishal.

I have a feeling you can get it smoother.

I don't take any offense at your comments, Jai.. but to be fair, I don't think everyone pays $28k for the Krell or $5k for the DD-18. Just like Velodyne and Krell, we set an MSRP for the product that is a guideline for retail pricing, but is not a set selling price.
In other words, we cannot dictate retail pricing to our retailers... it is up to them to set the actual selling price.

So-called unilateral pricing agreements are based on a retailer's agreement to voluntarily adhere to a given price or be terminated.. this might work for very large, powerful well-established brands like Apple or Bose, but they are the exception rather than the rule because most retailers don't want to be restricted in this way and won't sign them unless the brand is overwhelmingly important. You can't selectively have some dealers under unilateral and others under open pricing, either. It's all or none.

Best regards,

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.
I understand that this could be a very hard problem for JL to solve.

I don't take any offense at your comments, Jai.. but to be fair, I don't think everyone pays $28k for the Krell or $5k for the DD-18. Just like Velodyne and Krell, we set an MSRP for the product that is a guideline for retail pricing, but is not a set selling price.
In other words, we cannot dictate retail pricing to our retailers... it is up to them to set the actual selling price.

So-called unilateral pricing agreements are based on a retailer's agreement to voluntarily adhere to a given price or be terminated.. this might work for very large, powerful well-established brands like Apple or Bose, but they are the exception rather than the rule because most retailers don't want to be restricted in this way and won't sign them unless the brand is overwhelmingly important. You can't selectively have some dealers under unilateral and others under open pricing, either. It's all or none.

Best regards,

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.
All complaining aside. I have to say that the build quality of the f113 is like no other subwoofer I have seen before. End to end, every nook and corner, you folks have made it a work of art. Really, it looks like a piece of jewel.
I see some wallpapers (As a desktop) available on your website. The exploding driver looks really cool. Is there a wall paper of that available?
Also, are there any cool JL f113 ads with deep bass that can be used as a demo?
Thanks,
-Jai

The first chart shows in-room response with ARO bypassed:
http://www.benzandbeamer.com/~vishal/images/sub1.jpg

The second chart shows in-room response with ARO enabled:
http://www.benzandbeamer.com/~vishal/images/sub2.jpg


Vishal,
I looked at your charts a little more and compared the ARO bypassed to ARO enabled. As can be seen, the ARO caught and corrected the 42Hz peak. It missed the critical 26Hz to 40Hz plateau. One reason could be that it did not catch it and the other reason could be that the EQ software engine algorithm didn't crunch the numbers right. I suspect the former but this is purely a speculation. I was reading through the manual where it talks about the "Calibrate" button in page 15. Did the green LED ever blink fast or slow. If it was slow (one blink a second), then the mic may not have captured the plateau because of low-level. If too high, that could have also distorted it. You may have already checked for all this, but thought I would let you know in case you missed.

Vishal,
I looked at your charts a little more and compared the ARO bypassed to ARO enabled. As can be seen, the ARO caught and corrected the 42Hz peak. It missed the critical 26Hz to 40Hz plateau. One reason could be that it did not catch it and the other reason could be that the EQ software engine algorithm didn't crunch the numbers right. I suspect the former but this is purely a speculation. I was reading through the manual where it talks about the "Calibrate" button in page 15. Did the green LED ever blink fast or slow. If it was slow (one blink a second), then the mic may not have captured the plateau because of low-level. If too high, that could have also distorted it. You may have already checked for all this, but thought I would let you know in case you missed.
The ARO is a single-band PEQ. It corrects only one peak, not multiple. It would take at least 3-4 more bands to make that frequency response smooth and flat.

Yes, it is not a full blown EQ, but really only a single peak finder/reducer.

The ARO is a single-band PEQ. It only corrects one peak, not multiple. It would take at least 3-4 more bands to make that frequency response smooth and flat.

Most rooms have one resonant frequency that dwarfs the others. That's what the ARO is designed to detect and reduce.

All complaining aside. I have to say that the build quality of the f113 is like no other subwoofer I have seen before. End to end, every nook and corner, you folks have made it a work of art. Really, it looks like a piece of jewel.
I see some wallpapers (As a desktop) available on your website. The exploding driver looks really cool. Is there a wall paper of that available?
Also, are there any cool JL f113 ads with deep bass that can be used as a demo?
Thanks,
-Jai


I agree with you Jai it is a piece of art, for sure. The amp it self with rounded edges are just unique very beautiful indeed.My last speaker where silver,now I just order a new pair in glossy black to match the F113. There is a sense of pride of ownership when my boys pass buy,and marvel at my Fathom :D

Djoel

The ARO is a single-band PEQ. It only corrects one peak, not multiple. It would take at least 3-4 more bands to make that frequency response smooth and flat.
Makes sense now.

I agree with you Jai it is a piece of art, for sure. The amp it self with rounded edges are just unique very beautiful indeed.l

I unpacked the F113 this evening and as you write, it's a well put together piece and it's tank like build is very, very impressive.

The sub is in the same league of fit and finish as the Dali Helicon's 400's in Rose Wood. Of course the Fathom is black, but the construction and finish is truly first class.

I just have one problem. It needs a twin brother to keep it company. :D

So Mozvz, I'm guessing you didn't need any help unpacking?

All complaining aside. I have to say that the build quality of the f113 is like no other subwoofer I have seen before. End to end, every nook and corner, you folks have made it a work of art. Really, it looks like a piece of jewel.
I see some wallpapers (As a desktop) available on your website. The exploding driver looks really cool. Is there a wall paper of that available?
Also, are there any cool JL f113 ads with deep bass that can be used as a demo?
Thanks,
-Jai

All this for a retail of $3300,this subwoofer is not overpriced,IMHO. Where did we get this much quality at a price this low(yes low)? I have subs that costed more and yet the f113's clearly best them in every aspect6 save the finish(the Aerial SW12 cabinet is even sturdier and the rosewood or optional birds eye maple is stunning).The competition subs look and feel like tinker toys.And those that are built better(slightly so)cost several times more!

This gives me an idea....Mr Manville Smith when are Fathoms and Gothams comming in birds eye maple? :) I would pay a grand extra just to get in this finish.Well 2-3 grand extra for the Gotham. ;) Bird eye maple,when well done has a depth and beauty to behold.

Wait a minute how about offering a limited edition of the Gotham to match the gorgeous wood on Tenor's OTL amps? :p

here is a sample... http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/8429/tenor15wotlfrontgs1.th.jpg (http://img20.imageshack.us/my.php?image=tenor15wotlfrontgs1.jpg)

I just have one problem. It needs a twin brother to keep it company. :D
Seems like a common theme around here. Mr. Smith can't get any bigger compliment than folks plugging up #1 and being so instantly impressed that they crave a second.

I just broke the box to stow away in storage.
I want to point out the little things too that I appreciated. The green donut rings for the base and how easily they were removable and how sturdy they were. The quality of the plywood used inside and also the gloves :). So much thought has gone into each and everything you touch. Kind of what I expect in expensive hotels where they pay attention to small detail. I don't know if I am making any sense at all here :).

Seems like a common theme around here. Mr. Smith can't get any bigger compliment than folks plugging up #1 and being so instantly impressed that they crave a second.


Yes! I am on that same brain wave as many here, I am projecting mid summer or early fall for seconds.One in the front the other in the back :)

Djoel

I just broke the box to stow away in storage.
I want to point out the little things too that I appreciated. The green donut rings for the base and how easily they were removable and how sturdy they were. The quality of the plywood used inside and also the gloves :). So much thought has gone into each and everything you touch. Kind of what I expect in expensive hotels where they pay attention to small detail. I don't know if I am making any sense at all here :).


I agree, now you know why The Ear raves about the quality. First cabin all the way.

These subs just keep getting better. Music or movies they surprise me every day with their fast and articulate bass. Amazing product.

I agree, now you know why The Ear raves about the quality. First cabin all the way.

These subs just keep getting better. Music or movies they surprise me every day with their fast and articulate bass. Amazing product.
For the first time after a long time, me and you are in the same frequency :D.
Cheers!
-Jai

Thanks Mr. Hidley for the advice about the xd system with the fathom sub. i would certainly love to have perfect integration with multiple NHT xd subs -- my only concern is that i really want to get down to 20 hz without losing volume. my room isn't that big (23x12x9, about 2500 cubic feet). do you think i can do it with multiple xd subs?

So Mozvz, I'm guessing you didn't need any help unpacking?

Bob,

Yes, I was able to handle the unpacking and placement. Thanks for asking.

The truck driver was very considerate helping me unload from his trailer and bring the box into the house. I have a driveway that is on a steep grade where we had to wheel the box and then the driver helped me carry the sub into the house. That aspect of the process was very easy. I tipped him enough for a decent lunch.

Unpacking was straight forward, but the movement of the sub is a chore as most of the weight is in the back end as the owners know. When I first lifted the sub, I realized this is not a pick it up in the center dead lift. I just took my time moving it a few feet at a time and all went well. I must say as I was lifting the sub into position I was feeling a twinge between the legs, but it was not from getting excited about the sub!! :)

Hopefully I can calibrate and run the ARO before the day is out. Our 2 year old was sleeping when I unpacked and positioned the sub, so the fun part will occur in the next few days.

Charles

Some images from the process.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v71/Chas_T/F113/2.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v71/Chas_T/F113/6.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v71/Chas_T/F113/7.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v71/Chas_T/F113/1.jpg

All complaining aside. I have to say that the build quality of the f113 is like no other subwoofer I have seen before. End to end, every nook and corner, you folks have made it a work of art. Really, it looks like a piece of jewel.
I see some wallpapers (As a desktop) available on your website. The exploding driver looks really cool. Is there a wall paper of that available?
Also, are there any cool JL f113 ads with deep bass that can be used as a demo?
Thanks,
-Jai

Thanks for the kind words, Jai. We put a lot of effort into the design and the fit and finish of the Fathoms and it's nice to see that owners notice it.

At the moment we don't have the exploded view as wallpaper but I will put in a request to make that happen.

We don't currently have any video-based ads for the f113, but that's an interesting suggestion.

Best regards,

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.

I just broke the box to stow away in storage.
I want to point out the little things too that I appreciated. The green donut rings for the base and how easily they were removable and how sturdy they were. The quality of the plywood used inside and also the gloves :). So much thought has gone into each and everything you touch. Kind of what I expect in expensive hotels where they pay attention to small detail. I don't know if I am making any sense at all here :).

You didn't notice the mint under the bottom pad in the carton? :D

thanks for the pics.
will you look at that surround! looks like a donut!

http://www.benzandbeamer.com/~vishal/images/sub2.jpg

Sub 20 hz performance is impressive. Making me rethink my subwoofer strategy.

The Fathom 113 is now on Stereophile's Recommended list as a Class "A" performer. Class "A" is considered state of the art by Stereophile. The other 2 subs listed are the Velodyne DD-18 and the Rel Studio III @ $8995.

Congrats to JL on receiving yet another award.

Is there going to be a full out review? Late fall 06 they had a tiny write up on the F113, I had read some where on this post of one coming to Stereophile's pages.

Djoel

Mr Smith i'd just like to say again what a class act JL Audio... I had problems with my sub as everyone remembers and today I am unpacking and setting up my new sub... It was late so i'll have to calibrate it tomorrow...

I just wanna say thanks again for the quick support and turn around...

Class Act all the way!!!!

PS on hardwood floors i just set mine on a towel and it was easy to drag around...

Glad to hear it, Frockc.

Good idea with the towel! A small rug would work as well.

For carpeted floors the discs are the way to go.

GUys...the field trip to the JL Audio facility is underway in its planning stages....PLEASE enroll there if you plan attending:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=819899

Is there going to be a full out review? Not that I know of.

Not that I know of.




It would be nice to see Stereophile's perceptive though.

Thank you Mr Rubinson...


Djoel

It would be nice to see Stereophile's perceptive though.

Thank you Mr Rubinson...

Djoel

Agreed on this comment.

Kal: Is it unusual to give this award to a product which Stereophile has not reviewed?

Guys...sorry for the confusion. Please do NOT Pm me...just goto the thread and enter your information there:

JL Audio facility field trip, Pembroke Pines, Fl....mid april:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=819899

Agreed on this comment.

Kal: Is it unusual to give this award to a product which Stereophile has not reviewed?Any product that has been reviewed, either in a full report or in one of the regular columns, is eligible for, and will be, considered for RC. The report on the f113 is at: http://www.stereophile.com/musicintheround/1106mitr/index1.html More discussion of it will appear in my May column.

Thank you Kal!

Guys,

I know I am preaching to the choir here, but let me gloat a bit with my new purchase.

This little box is quite incredible. I finally had the time to run the ARO and sit down and play with this little gladiator and I am rather astounded by what this sub puts out. Music listening is providing a whole new experience with the integration of this piece. Although I have limited time with HT, a few pieces that I played kind of floored me.

Coming from the big box, port type subs, the JL sealed sub's sound is vastly different. It's output has a more refined, tighter, intense presence then my previous sub woofers. The previous sub that I owned was no slouch by any means and made it on Craig's list at a high level. However the JL seems to be in a different class.

I sit here and am accustomed to a larger box and sometimes think I am hear-lucinating when the little giant speaks to me. Providing more floor space and feeling less cramped in my little 1500 CF room make this a purchase much more then I expected with it's end results. It's well worth the cost IMHO.

I know it's easy to get way to excited about a new purchase and I'm generally pretty low key. This product is shall I write, amazing!!!

Charles

Charles, I've only heard it in a showroom and am amazed at the f113. It truly does sound different than the other high end subs I have heard. Be happy about your purchase! I want one too!

My same sentiments Charles ,and 7Below. Now imagine with we had two! :)

Djoel

My same sentiments Charles ,and 7Below. Now imagine with we had two! :) Djoel

If I had the room, I just might consider it. However, no real floor space unless I stack them. :eek:

Glowing review of the Fathom f113 in Home Theater mag (April) ,Mark Fleischmann is mighty impressed with the f113 to say the least. :)

The honor roll continues

Congrats to JL Audio,the reviewers and owners cannot all be wrong. ;)

Is it online or "in print" only?

I am in a one bedroom apartment,with a relatively size living room.We have a huge dinning table that would go out in heart beat for some more well define thump! Sad Girlfriend, happy me! ;)

Djoel

Glowing review of the Fathom f113 in Home Theater mag (April) ,Mark Fleischmann is mighty impressed with the f113 to say the least. :)

The honor roll continues

Congrats to JL Audio,the reviewers and owners cannot all be wrong. ;)


WHAT! You already got your copy of your HT mag up in Canada :confused: ???
Already??? Holy Tawp! :eek:

Djoel

WHAT! You already got your copy of your HT mag up in Canada :confused: ???
Already??? Holy Tawp! :eek:

Djoel

I got mine on monday good review.

Nate

I got mine on monday good review.

Nate

Yeah I got mine last week too! But it was March issue :( I might as well buy them in the street.

HT's mail department hate me :mad:

Djoel

Is it online or "in print" only?

Print,unless I am mistaken.

Still playing with positioning of the sub. I've found aa position that is a fairly good compromise of SPL vs FR, but this has raised a question. At first I wasn't that concerned, but maybe I should be.

The sub is almost DIRECTLY BEHIND my front right speaker (about 6"), firing directly at it. Can the constant vibration from the air displacement from the sub cause physical damage to the speaker enclosure over time?

I was playing/listening to Titan A.E. (Ice field scene till end) last night, and I started to wonder, now I can't stop.

Valid concern or not?

Thinking about turning the sub 90 degrees.

By the way, I think I got more SPL in the low frequencies on Titan A.E. than WOTW. Scary loud at a lower MV. IMPRESSIVE SUB!! :D

Still playing with positioning of the sub. I've found aa position that is a fairly good compromise of SPL vs FR, but this has raised a question. At first I wasn't that concerned, but maybe I should be.

The sub is almost DIRECTLY BEHIND my front right speaker (about 6"), firing directly at it. Can the constant vibration from the air displacement from the sub cause physical damage to the speaker enclosure over time?

I was playing/listening to Titan A.E. (Ice field scene till end) last night, and I started to wonder, now I can't stop.

Valid concern or not?



Nope

If the energy radiated my the JL damages your speaker you must have a set of $29 cardboard speakers from Wol Mart. ;)

To damage any speaker placed in fron of a sub you would need SPL that is inhuman and no sub on Earth can come close to.For example an explosion(a real one).

I just unboxed #2. :)

Very nice...I think my 1 Fathom is getting lonely. Looks like a Proceed amp in there, also nice.

Still playing with positioning of the sub. I've found aa position that is a fairly good compromise of SPL vs FR, but this has raised a question. At first I wasn't that concerned, but maybe I should be.



The real concern would be whether the radiation from the sub is causing audible resonance in the speaker. I've seen this problem when subs are firing directly into a speaker port. A quick check would be to place your finger lightly on the speaker driver to see if its vibrating.

I just played some Stevie Ray Vaughan. OMG :eek: these things sound incredible.

I can't wait to try some movies with good LFE.

I just unboxed #2. :)

Those Pio's look so good with Fathom by their side a match made in heaven. I have a pio too,but not an elite...5070 ....Very nice set up,very nice indeed.


Djoel

Jeff,

Congrats,welcome to the f113 dually club.These beasts do justice to any great system.

I've been experimenting with room locations for the subs. I discovered a problem with the subs set in the master/slave mode. With both subs playing the output was about 1/2 of a single sub.

I used a splitter and set both subs to master for another try. This fixed my problem. The output with two f113's colocated is prob. going to make me def....oh well. :D

I've talked with jl, and they are looking into the problem. Is there anyway a bad balanced cable could be the problem. I don't have a spare to check it with.

I've been experimenting with room locations for the subs. I discovered a problem with the subs set in the master/slave mode. With both subs playing the output was about 1/2 of a single sub.

I used a splitter and set both subs to master for another try. This fixed my problem. The output with two f113's colocated is prob. going to make me def....oh well. :D

I've talked with jl, and they are looking into the problem. Is there anyway a bad balanced cable could be the problem. I don't have a spare to check it with.
Jeff,
In master slave mode, you will not have separate control of the phase of the slave. If master and slave are not in phase at LP, then yes, you will lose SPL due to cancellations. With a splitter, both are masters and you can phase them indepedant of each other. If the subs are not co-located then you will need this separate control. If co-located, separate control is not needed and unless there is some wiring issue in the sub or the cable you are using.

Hello everyone!

As they say in radio land, I'm a long time listener, first time caller. (Translation: This is my first post. :) )

With all the praise directed towards the F113 on this forum, in Stereophile and most recently The Absolute Sound, I figured it was finally time to retire my pair of old faithful Velodyne ULD-15's and jump onto the JL bandwagon.

I took delivery of my F113 a few days ago and frankly I'm stunned. This is truly a remarkable product!

I do have one issue, however. My F113 emits a low buzzing noise. At first I thought it was a ground loop, but disconnecting the inputs made absolutely no difference. Upon closer inspection, I realized the sound isn’t emanating from the driver, but rather from the top of the box. Consequently, I suspect it's either a power supply or amplifier problem. The level is quite low, but it's greater than the transformer buzz from my VTL 300 amps, and it can be audible from across the room (approx 16 feet) on quiet passages. Has anyone else noticed this?

Any response would be appreciated.

Thanks.

Dear,

Can someone tell me how the F113 sounds compare to the PAradigm Servo 15 V2.?

Best regards,
Bas

Dear JL audio,

An question. I assume the ARO system works with an DSP in the digital chain. Correct me if i'm wrong. Mebey it is an future option to provide an S/PDIF or AES/EBU digital input. My Tact RCS 2.2 have digital outputs for subwoofers, and I know some sophisticated home theatre pre-amps have them to for the LFE channel. Just and idea.. :D

Best regards,
Bas

Hello everyone!

As they say in radio land, I'm a long time listener, first time caller. (Translation: This is my first post. :) )

With all the praise directed towards the F113 on this forum, in Stereophile and most recently The Absolute Sound, I figured it was finally time to retire my pair of old faithful Velodyne ULD-15's and jump onto the JL bandwagon.

I took delivery of my F113 a few days ago and frankly I'm stunned. This is truly a remarkable product!

I do have one issue, however. My F113 emits a low buzzing noise. At first I thought it was a ground loop, but disconnecting the inputs made absolutely no difference. Upon closer inspection, I realized the sound isn’t emanating from the driver, but rather from the top of the box. Consequently, I suspect it's either a power supply or amplifier problem. The level is quite low, but it's greater than the transformer buzz from my VTL 300 amps, and it can be audible from across the room (approx 16 feet) on quiet passages. Has anyone else noticed this?

Any response would be appreciated.

Thanks.

Dear Mylarman,

As far I could see on the pictures on the JL audio videoclip. The mains transformer is is mounted facing the top of the enclusure. So I suspect a mechanical transformer humm. The causse can be different things. Mebey the bolt of the transformer is a little bit lost and cause the transformer to humm. An other option is that the JL audio's (in your production type) transformer is a little bit sensitive for DC offset or dirt on the mains. Try to rotate the mains connector from the JL audio in your outlet 180 degrees. mebey it helps ;)

Good luck!

Best regards,
Bas

Mylarman.... any chance you could measure the line voltage on that outlet? About the only thing I can think of that would make the f113's toroid hum would be a very high line voltage (say, 130V or so).

Hello msmith_JL,

The line voltage at the outlet measures 118 VAC, so it's hardly excessive.

Am I correct in assuming that the f113 should be drop dead quiet as far as mechanical noise is concerned? I know the product's release was delayed "to get it right" so I have a hard time believing that my experience is typical.

Mylarman,

Nope all my JL subs are quiet,no mechanical buzz.Only noise and buzz comes from inside the walls when they flex due to the massive SPL down deep. ;) Connected to standard APC Surge Arrest power bars(one per sub,per dedicated line).

I would say the Fathoms belong to the quiet group,the most dead quiet subs I have(when powered and not getting signal,not sleep mode)are the Klipsch RSW and RT subs.

For example my Paradigm subs(Seismics,PW2200) make a buzz but it is nothing irritating.I have to get close and pay attention to call this a buzz.Come to think the only noisy sub is a Cerwin Vega I purchased for laughs and good old school feeling.

Mylarman,

Nope all my JL subs are quiet,no mechanical buzz.Only noise and buzz comes from inside the walls when they flex due to the massive SPL down deep. ;) Connected to standard APC Surge Arrest power bars(one per sub,per dedicated line).

I would say the Fathoms belong to the quiet group,the most dead quiet subs I have(when powered and not getting signal,not sleep mode)are the Klipsch RSW and RT subs.

For example my Paradigm subs(Seismics,PW2200) make a buzz but it is nothing irritating.I have to get close and pay attention to call this a buzz.Come to think the only noisy sub is a Cerwin Vega I purchased for laughs and good old school feeling.

That's what I figured. The f113 manual shows configurations with up to four subs in the room. Several of the configurations place two of the subs very close to the seats. I can't imagine how that would be tolerable if the buzzing I get was typical.

Looks like my new toy will have to go back! This is going to be a major hassle, seeing as my HT is in the basement. It took two guys and a lot of sweat to lug the box down the stairs. The killer is, this may very well be due to a lose mounting bolt. I'd try and fix it myself, but there's the not-so-small matter of violating the warrantee and quite a few bucks at stake.

I assume the ARO system works with an DSP in the digital chain.

The signal remains in the analogue-domain at all times...

glennQ

That's what I figured. The f113 manual shows configurations with up to four subs in the room. Several of the configurations place two of the subs very close to the seats. I can't imagine how that would be tolerable if the buzzing I get was typical.

Looks like my new toy will have to go back! This is going to be a major hassle, seeing as my HT is in the basement. It took two guys and a lot of sweat to lug the box down the stairs. The killer is, this may very well be due to a lose mounting bolt. I'd try and fix it myself, but there's the not-so-small matter of violating the warrantee and quite a few bucks at stake.

The Fathom is possibly quite difficult to get into the insides. The W7 woofers have frame-edge surrounds that extend all the way to the edge of the basket frame and cover the mounting screws under the surround and the surround is locked onto the basket by means of a circular piece of aluminum. Also is the fact that the Fathom has the outer plate on the front which helps to hide the surround locking ring and improve asthetics and from looking at pictures I would guess that the grille pegs would hold these screws but as you state, would probably void your warranty.

Hello msmith_JL,

The line voltage at the outlet measures 118 VAC, so it's hardly excessive.

Am I correct in assuming that the f113 should be drop dead quiet as far as mechanical noise is concerned? I know the product's release was delayed "to get it right" so I have a hard time believing that my experience is typical.

It should be dead quiet. Before you go replacing it... let's try a couple of things to rule out other possibilities.

If you disconnect the signal cable is the noise still present?

Is the noise affected by the subwoofer playing or is it steady state? Try hitting the "Demo" button to verify this.

Try connecting it to a different circuit if you have that option.

I have 2 f113s, not co-located for now. Both of them are run as Master and setting are identical. Master volume is set to reference in both and phase etc are all the same.

I tried the demo button and for some reason, one unit sounds a lot louder than the other (I would say about 10dB difference). Of course, this could be because they are not co-located but I guess even if I place them in the same location and measure, one would be less louder than the other. Reason, I can see that the woofer excursion of the lounder one is more. The less louder one however does deliver fantastic SPL in real movie scenes.

Question is "Can the level of the DEMO vary from one unit to another"?

Mr. Smith, have you observed this before and is this a known issue? Could there be potential problems with the less louder unit? I will do more tests shortly.
Thanks,
-Jai

Folks who have dual units, if you can compare the two using the demo button and report back, that would be great.
Thanks!

I have 2 f113s, not co-located for now. Both of them are run as Master and setting are identical. Master volume is set to reference in both and phase etc are all the same.

I tried the demo button and for some reason, one unit sounds a lot louder than the other (I would say about 10dB difference). Of course, this could be because they are not co-located but I guess even if I place them in the same location and measure, one would be less louder than the other. Reason, I can see that the woofer excursion of the lounder one is more. The less louder one however does deliver fantastic SPL in real movie scenes.

Question is "Can the level of the DEMO vary from one unit to another"?

Mr. Smith, have you observed this before and is this a known issue? Could there be potential problems with the less louder unit? I will do more tests shortly.
Thanks,
-Jai

I would need to know the serial numbers... we did increase the gain after a few hundred were built and it's possible you have one of each. As long as you can get them matched appropriately by putting one in "variable" mode, it's not really a problem.

I would need to know the serial numbers... we did increase the gain after a few hundred were built and it's possible you have one of each. As long as you can get them matched appropriately by putting one in "variable" mode, it's not really a problem.
That explains it. I did a few more tests with sine waves and the performance is identical.
Thanks,
-Jai

It should be dead quiet. Before you go replacing it... let's try a couple of things to rule out other possibilities.

If you disconnect the signal cable is the noise still present?

Is the noise affected by the subwoofer playing or is it steady state? Try hitting the "Demo" button to verify this.

Try connecting it to a different circuit if you have that option.


1) Disconnecting the audio inputs made no difference.

2) The noise was (note the past tense!) independent of whether the sub was playing or not.

3) THE OUTLET MADE A WORLD OF DIFFERENCE! I had originally been using a nearby run-of-the mill outlet. After your comments I remembered I had an unused dedicated outlet, originally installed for a sump pump, that was within reach. When I switched outlets, the buzz dropped dramatically, although it was still barely audible from across the room. Then I killed my two light dimmers. That did the trick! The combination of these actions has reduced the buzz to all but imperceptible. In fact, I now have to stand directly in front of the sub to hear it at all. From the listening piston, my beer refrigerator in the next room makes more noise! (One guess as to where I'm headed next. :) )

This has been an eye opening experience. Does JL - or anyone else for that matter - have any recommendations on line filtering units that are compatable with the f113?

THANKS TO EVERYONE WHO PROVIDED COMMENTS AND ESPECIALLY TO MSMITH_JL! (I may have to thank him properly by buying my f113 a buddy.)

Dimmers will sometimes do that.

I've been experimenting with room locations for the subs. I discovered a problem with the subs set in the master/slave mode. With both subs playing the output was about 1/2 of a single sub.

I used a splitter and set both subs to master for another try. This fixed my problem. The output with two f113's colocated is prob. going to make me def....oh well. :D

I've talked with jl, and they are looking into the problem. Is there anyway a bad balanced cable could be the problem. I don't have a spare to check it with.

The problem turned out to be a miswired cable.

What are the pros and cons of running two 113s configured Master / Slave as opposed to the setup described above, with a splitter and both subs set on Master?

Since adding the twin Fathom I sense some visceral loss of bass punch runnning them as master and slave.

Kshep...

Did you run ARO calibration with the subs in master / slave ? This is essential.

It's also possible that ARO is suppressing a peak in response somewhere in the "impact" range of the subwoofers. Try defeating the ARO to see if that is what is happening.

Wow, just finished reading this thread. I don't think I can see straight, now...

I have a question I don't think has been raised in 65 pages. One of the most alluring aspects of the F113 (for me) is its performance for its size. In fact, maybe about 30 pages ago someone described it as a "reference-class compact sub." The downside for me is it is so new, I won't get to take advantage of anyone's Audiophile Nervosa anytime soon and snap one up for under $2k in the used equipment world, which is where my hunting grounds lie.

With so many of you now owning the F113 as a basis of comparison, which pre-owned subs on the market might you point me to as "yesterday's" reference-class compact sub?

Aaron

With so many of you now owning the F113 as a basis of comparison, which pre-owned subs on the market might you point me to as "yesterday's" reference-class compact sub?

Aaron

I would say DD15/DD12 (in the price range mentioned).

Aaron,

Velodyne DD15 or Paradigm Servo 15 v.2. If size must be very very compact ... Velodyne DD12 would fit. The question is will a DD12 provide the output you need?

The the sub that packs the most into the least from the "previous" reference subs is the Earthquake MKV-15. The DD-15 has an edge in SQ, but very few subs even now can match the Earthquake db for db while still maintaining reference-level sound quality.

BTW, this is for an HT-only system. I have a separate 2-channel system in my living room. So it's definitely those dinosaur steps I'm after, as opposed to musicality. The room itself isn't overwhelmingly large (21'x13') -- hardwood flooring on cement (it's a basement family room), and a wood ceiling.

BTW, this is for an HT-only system. I have a separate 2-channel system in my living room. So it's definitely those dinosaur steps I'm after, as opposed to musicality. The room itself isn't overwhelmingly large (21'x13') -- hardwood flooring on cement (it's a basement family room), and a wood ceiling.

Then DD15,the smaller DD series subs simp-ly do not move enough air to really shake it good when working in a room this large.

And in a room this large why even look for smallish subs??? WAF?

For HT and shake factor for less I would seek a dual driver SVS ,they come in great looking finishes.

SVS PB12Plus/2 or JL f113 will move plenty of air,the DD15 ...It would take almost two such units to displace as much air as a single f113 down deep!

Kshep...

Did you run ARO calibration with the subs in master / slave ? This is essential.

It's also possible that ARO is suppressing a peak in response somewhere in the "impact" range of the subwoofers. Try defeating the ARO to see if that is what is happening.
Yes, the ARO calibration was performed with the subs in master / slave.

I'm still tweaking sub position as well as furniture arrangement, and will defeat the ARO after the next calibration. Thanks.

And in a room this large why even look for smallish subs??? WAF?

For HT and shake factor for less I would seek a dual driver SVS ,they come in great looking finishes.

SVS PB12Plus/2 or JL f113 will move plenty of air,the DD15 ...It would take almost two such units to displace as much air as a single f113 down deep!

WAF! Hit the nail on the head. Still, I may yet talk myself into the larger SVS.

You're saying that based on HT, the dual driver SVS will out-wham the DD15?

That's the beauty of the F113, isn't it -- have your cake and eat it, too (wham with a good WAF-factor...). But as Dirty Harry once said, "a man's got to know his limitations."

Does the Axiom EP500 come anywhere close to the F113 in HT performance?

Does the Axiom EP500 come anywhere close to the F113 in HT performance?

That would be very unlikely. It would probably take the 600 to come closer.

Yes a PB12Plus/2 will best a DD15 with ease for HT use. Here you have more SPL down deep.Simply the dual 12" ported woofers displace more air the single 15" sealed can.

I would go either with the larger SVS or an f113.The Fathom you pay a major premium as they obviously use a single costly driver opposed to dual mid-priced units(in relation to the JL),and.

You will always pay more for a compact sub,be it commercial or DIY.No way around this.Now the choice is yours bigger box and under half the cost or small box and twice the cost.

Now the choice is yours bigger box and under half the cost or small box and twice the cost.

Now there's a succinct nutshell! And the Maestro?



(meanwhile, I'm trying to figure out how to mask a $2500 dispursement... , one blessing with wives and audio is they don't know the value of things --"Yeah, honey, it was only $500"...)

(meanwhile, I'm trying to figure out how to mask a $2500 dispursement... , one blessing with wives and audio is they don't know the value of things --"Yeah, honey, it was only $500"...)

Considered duals? :D

Considered duals? :D

I have, especially because of the greater propensity to get-it-right in terms of placement. Problem is, if I'm spending ~$1,500, I'm not sure I want a pre-owned $750 sub -- what would that get me? Not two DD15s. Two SVS PB12-Plus/2's would never fly. It's come up in this thread before (two let's say "mid-fi" subs versus one "reference" class sub). I haven't really shopped too hard yet (trying to figure out what to shop for), but I suppose if there were a pair of highly recommended compact-like subs that could be had in the pre-owned world for $1500, that would be very tempting. But I think I already know two DD15s (or even two DD12s) or two Maestros couldn't be had for that.

Maybe two EP500s?

Unless this research takes a different direction, I guess I'd envisioned getting the best, used $1500 or less, compact reference-class sub I can find and adding a second one later, if needed. On the other hand, I'm all for getting it right the first time.

kitchener,

Don't assume that duals will necessarily fix problems that are room related. It really depends on what's causing the problem. In fact, duals can create problems of their own. In some instances, a more powerful single sub works out better. confused yet? I can add more. :)

Now there's a succinct nutshell! And the Maestro?



(meanwhile, I'm trying to figure out how to mask a $2500 dispursement... , one blessing with wives and audio is they don't know the value of things --"Yeah, honey, it was only $500"...)


The ACI Maestro XL is a larger box ~ 22"x22"x22" roughly, but it does have a nice medium-red cherry veneer. I own the Inlaid Cherry and this sub does perform both looks and bass-wise. Many people thought that the ACI Maestro is a "very pretty amp stand" when I used to place the Sub amp on top and thought that my 804s was producing all the clean low bass.

I'm not sure how the ACI Maestro XL is against the F112 (same price range), but I can say that the ACI Maestro is a very good subwoofer. If you want a nice wood veneer, this is where the ACI Maestro beats out the DD-18, and JL F112/113. If you want piano gloss black, all 4 subs come in that finish. In order to narrow down your choices, you have to weigh "size of subwoofer vs. PEQ choices".

... when I used to place the Sub amp on top...

I'm sure I could look this up, but, is the Maestro a passive sub requiring an outboard amp? You're right about the finish, though -- that cherry veneer would go a long way with she-who-must-seem-to-be-obeyed.

I'm sure I could look this up, but, is the Maestro a passive sub requiring an outboard amp? You're right about the finish, though -- that cherry veneer would go a long way with she-who-must-seem-to-be-obeyed.

It is passive, but comes with an external amp. You connect the amp to the subwoofer with the included speaker wire.

The finish is definite what separates it from the intense competition from JL and Velodyne overall.

Others may disagree, but I would break it down to:
Want wood veneer: Maestro
Want small size: JL
Want many PEQ filters: Velo

All else, pretty much the same with price varying depending on deals, dealers, etc.

Apologies to the OP if this is considered a derailment of the JL thread.

Is the SVS B4 Plus just not in the top sub mix anymore? How does it stack up in all the comparisons? At one time I was reading raves about the B4+.

Now it seems like it is the F113, DD-18, Maestro....and the rest...

At least I have one of the three.

Would you buy a B4 plus today?

i don't think there's a B4 regularly available today

Is the SVS B4 Plus just not in the top sub mix anymore? How does it stack up in all the comparisons? At one time I was reading raves about the B4+.

Now it seems like it is the F113, DD-18, Maestro....and the rest...

At least I have one of the three.

Would you buy a B4 plus today?

They no longer sell the sub.

SVS's B4Plus was a monster in all respects,over 200lbs large box containing four dB12 woofers. They probably did not sell enough,and not because they were so expensive.

The only reason for being discontinued,size did not help.Damn if they only sold in stores.Damn I would have one a long time ago.Price was quite low for such a monster.Even with a Crown K2!

An HT King Kong of commercial subs.

SVS's B4Plus was a monster in all respects,over 200lbs large box containing four dB12 woofers. They probably did not sell enough,and not because they were so expensive.

The only reason for being discontinued,size did not help.Damn if they only sold in stores.Damn I would have one a long time ago.Price was quite low for such a monster.Even with a Crown K2!

An HT King Kong of commercial subs.They are deciding if they will re-release the B4+. There is someone at HTS wanting to sell theirs.

The B4 used to be Craig's reference sub, but I think he got tired of moving it up and down the stairs.

Hmmm...so it is still considered reference but not in the shootouts since it is discontinued. Maybe it would best a F113. I realize they are discontinued but you can buy any sub on the used market. I am looking for the best in this price range. Forget new or used.

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?homesubw&1180042360


Here is one from Audiogon...

DJoel

I ordered my JL F113 sub today, hope that this sub can offer the same bass that my SVS PB12/Plus2 gave out.

I can't wait tell next Saturday to get it delivered and set up.

I ordered my JL F113 sub today, hope that this sub can offer the same bass that my SVS PB12/Plus2 gave out.

I can't wait tell next Saturday to get it delivered and set up.

You BASTARD !!!!!

By the reviews here, that thing is the Lamborghini of Subs here...

I don't think you have anything to worry about buddy... great choice !!!

I love my Plus/2 but I would love a 113 more.. :)

Enjoy !!!

Warp

The only thing one could ask for ...even more output(for the sake of more output) and deeper extension...not under this compact cabinet.JL pushed as far as it is practical right now.

The only thing one could ask for ...even more output(for the sake of more output) and deeper extension...not under this compact cabinet.JL pushed as far as it is practical right now.
I think I can hear some SubMersives coming down the road.. :D

I ordered my JL F113 sub today, hope that this sub can offer the same bass that my SVS PB12/Plus2 gave out.

I can't wait tell next Saturday to get it delivered and set up.

Let us know about your new F113. I have the pb12/plus2 and would like to upgrade to the F113 the end of April. I just hope I can sell the PB12.

I've had a PB12/+2 since '03. I would like a smaller, easier to move sub, with comparable output. Do you guy's really think the F113 can do this? I can get one 1/2 off retail.

From what I heard, the Fathom will have comparable output to the Plus/2. I don't know how easy it is to move, it is still 130 pounds. :eek:

...snip... I can get one 1/2 off retail.

Bait?

I've had a PB12/+2 since '03. I would like a smaller, easier to move sub, with comparable output. Do you guy's really think the F113 can do this? I can get one 1/2 off retail.

Can you please PM me where you can get this deal? Thanks...

Mike

From what I heard, the Fathom will have comparable output to the Plus/2. I don't know how easy it is to move, it is still 130 pounds. :eek:

Not easy at all. Because of its small size it handles heavier than the 130lbs it weights.

"Originally Posted by Chip E
...think the F113 can do this? I can get one 1/2 off retail."
Can you please PM me where you can get this deal? Thanks...
Mike
PM me as well. I would like to know too!!

Ditto.

I've had a PB12/+2 since '03. I would like a smaller, easier to move sub, with comparable output. Do you guy's really think the F113 can do this? I can get one 1/2 off retail.

I would sign-up for two JL Audio F113's at 1/2 off retail right now - if I knew where to get that kind-of-deal!

PM me too while you're at it! :D

Chip, April 1st isn't until tomorrow... :D

Me as well Chip, super curious!

There is that site that advertises them for 1899.00 but I haven't heard of anyone who has actually tried to buy one there. Who'd like to be the first to jump? ;)

http://www.hdtvhouse.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?

Put Jl in the search.

Considering that JL Audio monitors this thread and their position on online purchases, I seriously doubt that any of these "deal" will get made.

Not easy at all. Because of its small size it handles heavier than the 130lbs it weights.


You better carry a small box that weighs 130lbs than a 130lbs larger box.The f113 is quite managable ,I put the supplied white non slip gloves...pick it up and go...

The HGS18 I have weighs about 20lbs less and it is a bastard to carry,because of the added size and grip on the sub.

Give me a weighlifting bar with 130lbs and it will be a piece of cake,give me a very voluminous box of the same weight and it gets irritating.

You better carry a small box that weighs 130lbs than a 130lbs larger box.The f113 is quite managable ,I put the supplied white non slip gloves...pick it up and go...

The HGS18 I have weighs about 20lbs less and it is a bastard to carry,because of the added size and grip on the sub.

Give me a weighlifting bar with 130lbs and it will be a piece of cake,give me a very voluminous box of the same weight and it gets irritating.

While I was experimenting with placements (With duals it gets more tricky as you know), I had to use some muscle and stacking them was a bit harder as I had to pay attention, not to touch the driver. Yes, it was quite manageable. The Danley was a different story. When I finally shipped it, it took two people (me and a buddy) to load that thing. Thankfully I don't have to climb stairs with these beasts :eek:

You better carry a small box that weighs 130lbs than a 130lbs larger box.The f113 is quite managable ,I put the supplied white non slip gloves...pick it up and go...

The HGS18 I have weighs about 20lbs less and it is a bastard to carry,because of the added size and grip on the sub.

Give me a weighlifting bar with 130lbs and it will be a piece of cake,give me a very voluminous box of the same weight and it gets irritating.
Talk about the Gotham :D. Perfect for squats if on bars, but without support I can't imagine lifting that thing all by myself.

PM me too!

This is the most powerful small sealed subwoofer in the world. I know what you thinking, should I buy this from an authorized dealer or save a thousand bucks and buy from one of those NY anything goes websites and kiss the warranty goodbye.
You've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel lucky?' Well, do ya punk?

This is the most powerful small sealed subwoofer in the world. I know what you thinking, should I buy this from an authorized dealer or save a thousand bucks, or buy from one of those NY anything goes websites and kiss the warranty goodbye.
You've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel lucky?' Well, do ya punk?
Oh c'mon ROb! what's wrong with the etailers? I mean, I personally recommend the following very trustworthy and high quality stores:

888digital.com
http://donwiss.com/pictures/BrooklynStores/0078.jpg

Abe's of Maine, d.b.a. Cameras and Electronics.com
http://donwiss.com/pictures/BrooklynStores/0051.jpg

Digital Kings, d.b.a. DigitalKings.com, a.k.a. Crazy 4 Digital (Crazy4Digital.com), World Class Plasma (WorldClassPlasma.com, WorldClassPlasmas.com), Best Stop Plasma, (BestStopPlasma.com), Next Step Plasma, (NextStepPlasma.com), Tech Pro Warranty (TechProWarranty.com), and I&R Management, Inc
http://donwiss.com/pictures/BrooklynStores/w0193.jpg

Esupersale, d.b.a. Best Buy Digital (BestBuyDigital.com), CircuitDigital.com, SourceForDigital.com, OneClickDigital.com, DigitalFuze.com, DigitalSupportDepartment.com, MyDigitalPalace.com
http://donwiss.com/pictures/BrooklynStores/w0142.jpg

HighDefOnline.com, a.k.a. Prestige Plasma (PrestigePlasma.com) and Rapid Plasma, d.b.a RapidPlasma.com
http://donwiss.com/pictures/BrooklynStores/w0237.jpg

and many more!!

for complete listings of recommended online NY/NJ etailers, I recommend:
http://donwiss.com/pictures/BrooklynStores/

This is the most powerful small sealed subwoofer in the world. I know what you thinking, should I buy this from an authorized dealer or save a thousand bucks, or buy from one of those NY anything goes websites and kiss the warranty goodbye.
You've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel lucky?' Well, do ya punk?


Yeap have you been around some of those places at night!!!! :eek:
You're going to need the worlds most powerful hand gun!!!


I thought some those picture look familiar..Good old NYC.

Djoel

Talk about the Gotham :D. Perfect for squats if on bars, but without support I can't imagine lifting that thing all by myself.

The Gotham at 305 or so lbs is a monster,I have a spot right for this monster.

Also I am playing with winISD and will be getting a bunch of TC-2000/3000 15 inch woofers and dual LMS-5400 18inch brutes.To build three opposed driver subs(sealed),they model great under a realistic volume.Final box weights will varry from 240-350lbs apiece. All powered by Crown.

These a great times to be a sub maniac and lunatic. :D Now imagine this army...nothing in its way en route to efortless levels above 120dB at listening position all the way down 20hz.

Thank goodness for TC Sounds and JL Audio. We sub fanatics are saved.

When is the Gotham comming out?

When is the Gotham comming out?
It's a bigger dog. Go get it :D

It's a bigger dog. Go get it :D

You are the one that's into big things, like whales.
Don't get all this animal talk.

You are the one that's into big things, like whales.
Don't get all this animal talk.
If you can talk below 40Hz at 100dB @1M, I would be interested in recording your voice too and may actually start listening to all the babble (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=828281&page=2). But it appears you are 165Hz or over and you get pretty loud here and that annoys people like me. :p

More barks here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=828747).
Laughing so hard is hurting me :).

The Gotham at 305 or so lbs is a monster,I have a spot right for this monster.

It actually looks like the production Gotham will exceed 400 lbs. :o

Not sure whether to be proud of that fact, but I can tell you that the cabinet does not have any resonance problems. :cool:

I should have exact figures in a week and we will update the website info.

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.

It actually looks like the production Gotham will exceed 400 lbs. :o

Not sure whether to be proud of that fact, but I can tell you that the cabinet does not have any resonance problems. :cool:

I should have exact figures in a week and we will update the website info.

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.
2 Fathoms = 260 lbs.
What in the Gotham cabinet is expected to make it 140lbs heavier than 2 Fathoms?

Thanks for accomodating my request (http://home.jlaudio.com/pdfs/Wallpaper/HT_Xplode_1024.jpg) Mr. Smith.
Very kind of you and the picture is really cool :).

The extra 140 lbs. are mostly blood, sweat and tears.

Actually, the wall thickness is far greater than the Fathom and the material is denser.

The extra 140 lbs. are mostly blood, sweat and tears.

Actually, the wall thickness is far greater than the Fathom and the material is denser.
It sure must have been a herculean task acheiving this. Kudos to you folks!

The extra 140 lbs. are mostly blood, sweat and tears.

Actually, the wall thickness is far greater than the Fathom and the material is denser.

Is a forklift included in the price. :D

If you can talk below 40Hz at 100dB @1M, I would be interested in recording your voice too and may actually start listening to all the babble (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=828281&page=2). But it appears you are 165Hz or over and you get pretty loud here and that annoys people like me. :p

Oh, I see. That makes sense.

Is a forklift included in the price. :D

LOL :) .

Thanks for accomodating my request (http://home.jlaudio.com/pdfs/Wallpaper/HT_Xplode_1024.jpg) Mr. Smith.
Very kind of you and the picture is really cool :).

Thank you for posting that photo. Kudo's to Mr. Smith for providing.