JL Audio Fathom 13" Sub

[AudioArchitect]

Alright so after many long months of waiting we received our demo unit JL Audio Fathom single 13". This is the sub to beat. It will no doubt make Velodyne take their DD series back to the drawing board.

This sub is not only better for home theater-type bass than a DD15, it is fast and responsive like a REL. Our DD12 sounded muddy and weak compared to the Fathom. JL Audio will have lots of success with home audio products if this is a sign of things to come.

Anyone in the Southern California area, can pm me if interested in demo'ing at our shop or in your home. I will try to get some pics up in the next few days.

[billybob_jcv]

I would love to see the test results from someone like craig, Ilkka, Ed, etc. My boss has 2 JL Audio subs and an amp in his BMW M5 (along with a truckload of other goodies) - and they sound awesome. I'm really glad to see JL Audio put the zillions of dollars they have made off the car audio kiddies to good use... ;)

[aus]

Kinda defeats the purpose of an M5 when you load it up like that.
I have a buddy with an M3 that has THREE McIntosh amps (2 HUGE ones) with 2 subs in the back. It was so heavy, people thought he lowered his car.

As for the JL sub, how much are they going for? Full retail?

[billybob_jcv]

Actually, it's pretty understated - it was all done by a high-end custom shop, so everything is tucked away. They used matching leather to cover all the fabricated parts. He has Morel mids and highs scattered about the interior, video screens in the headrests, and a 3rd video screen in the dash for DVD/nav/XM & real-time traffic maps. He also has a DVD player and an xbox in the rear for the kids. Laser & radar detectors & a radar jammer hidden in the bumpers (shhh!), and a bluetooth handsfree phone system integrated in the audio system so it switches to the phone when a call comes-in or he dials.

But the funniest thing is that with all that high-dollar AV gear, the only thing he ever listens to is the business & financial news or sports talk on XM!!! :rolleyes:

[cschang]

Anyone in the Southern California area, can pm me if interested in demo'ing at our shop or in your home. I will try to get some pics up in the next few days.
I have been thinking about taking a trip down to Carlsbad to listen to the Magico Mini. Might have to go all the way to SD to experience the Fathom!

[Tim916]

This is definitely the "it" sub of the moment. Velodyne DD-18s are soooo 2005.

[slybasil]

Have a room thats between 3500-3800 cubics. How would the F113 perform in that space?

[AudioArchitect]

I have been thinking about taking a trip down to Carlsbad to listen to the Magico Mini. Might have to go all the way to SD to experience the Fathom!

You must be talking about Audio Revelation. I think they only carry Velodyne. Two channel place if Im not mistaken?

[AudioArchitect]

Have a room thats between 3500-3800 cubics. How would the F113 perform in that space?

We have the F113 in our open showroom which is approximately 4000-4300, and it fills the entire room without breaking a sweat. Our DD12 sounds like boombox compared to this. This thing gets up and goes like you wouldnt believe.

I did mostly music listening today. Tomorrow is War of the Worlds and U-571. This should be fun.

[kramskoi]

I would love to see the test results from someone like craig, Ilkka, Ed, etc. My boss has 2 JL Audio subs and an amp in his BMW M5 (along with a truckload of other goodies) - and they sound awesome. I'm really glad to see JL Audio put the zillions of dollars they have made off the car audio kiddies to good use... ;)

i would expect this sub to perform about the level of a sealed Tumult 15" driver...they both have about the same Vd and sensitivity...the Fathom has a "very" robust driver, and that's always a good start to great performance...i actually thought about using two of the 13w7's in a dual, low Q sealed design awhile back...

It'll be interesting to note the variable results of ARO and the ELF trim feature...i'm guessing a sliding highpass filter...i seem to recall that the Fathom was designed to go down to 22 Hz...i've curiously been unable to find this quote again on their website...hopefully someone will get this thing "on the bench" soon...those are some spectacular claims in regard to the Velodyne DD series... ;)

[nethomas]

I have a pair of the F113s set up in my HT room which is about 4000cubic ft. and they are incredible. I got them last Sat. and didn't have a 5meter cable for the fartherest one so only had one working for the first 5 days. Believe me thats all I needed, but I WANTED two so kept them both. As I have said in a seperate thread, these are incredable subs with deep bass that is not boomy or bloated. My D1 Pre/Pro has a room resonence filter and sends a tone as low as 19Hz. That tone is very clear and moves your chest. I'll be keeping these bad boys for awhile. By the way, they are heavy as hell!! 140lbs. each. I bought the 70in. Sony XBR2 at the same time and it only weigh 10lbs more than one of the subs. They are built to last.

[cschang]

You must be talking about Audio Revelation. I think they only carry Velodyne. Two channel place if Im not mistaken?
I think you are right. I have never been there. If I were to do the 90 minute drive there, another 30 minutes or so to your shop would not be a big deal.

[new27]

That sub looks amazing, the review reads amazing, I WANT ONE!!!

I don't think the comparison to the PB12-Plus/2 is fair considering the price difference,
would love to hear how it compares to the bigger PB12-Ultra/2.

Also at that price, I'd love to see a comparo with the Danley tower of Power.

Throw in the upcoming BMF, loan them all to me, and I'll gladly take a week
of work to play around and report back to ya'll :)

[cschang]

I don't think the comparison to the PB12-Plus/2 is fair considering the price difference,
would love to hear how it compares to the bigger PB12-Ultra/2.

There is no size difference between the Plus and the Ultra....and the sound quality between the two is not large. Judging by the reactions and reviews of the Fathom, the Ultra probably does not fair much better than the Plus.

[Tim916]

We need to get one of these into the hands of Ed Mullen asap.

[bossobass]

Everyone knows I'm a fan of the sealed/EQ'd alignment, as well as the feature set of the JL subs.

At great risk that Ron Stimpson will search out this post a year and a half from now, call it 'recent' and use it to prove my incessant SVS fanboy status, I must say...

There's little chance that the Fathom "...played deeper, louder, and tighter than the SVS [SVS PB12-Plus/2] with any material I chose."

I'd be very surprised if this is true in any sense unless non-linear distortions are not considered. Even then, the Fathom will have a tough time matching output with a 2X12" ported sub from 15-30Hz.

Above 30Hz, it's possible, but if the subs were level matched in the same system, I doubt it would be easy to catch that one sub played deeper and louder.

I would like to see what happens to the Fathom at roll off. That will tell if it plays 'deeper' than the PB thingy.

'Tighter' is the easiest of the 3 claims to buy on face value, as the sealed sub should sound tighter than any resonant system.

I agree that comparative numbers are a must if I'm to eat my words here or any of the Fathom hype is to be accepted and the sub is to be judged 'deeper, louder, tighter' than the SVS, which has been thoroughly tested with the graphs and numbers posted by more than just Sir Edward ;)

Bosso

[kramskoi]

Everyone knows I'm a fan of the sealed/EQ'd alignment, as well as the feature set of the JL subs.

At great risk that Ron Stimpson will search out this post a year and a half from now, call it 'recent' and use it to prove my incessant SVS fanboy status, I must say...

There's little chance that the Fathom "...played deeper, louder, and tighter than the SVS [SVS PB12-Plus/2] with any material I chose."

I'd be very surprised if this is true in any sense unless non-linear distortions are not considered. Even then, the Fathom will have a tough time matching output with a 2X12" ported sub from 15-30Hz.

Above 30Hz, it's possible, but if the subs were level matched in the same system, I doubt it would be easy to catch that one sub played deeper and louder.

I would like to see what happens to the Fathom at roll off. That will tell if it plays 'deeper' than the PB thingy.

'Tighter' is the easiest of the 3 claims to buy on face value, as the sealed sub should sound tighter than any resonant system.

I agree that comparative numbers are a must if I'm to eat my words here or any of the Fathom hype is to be accepted and the sub is to be judged 'deeper, louder, tighter' than the SVS, which has been thoroughly tested with the graphs and numbers posted by more than just Sir Edward ;)

Bosso

...careful Bosso...the iconoclast in you is rearing its head again :D ...and i love it!...i feel the same thing whenever i read the "subjective reviews"...i try to dilute my posts as much as possible but it's "hard" being the "shepherd" when it's the wolf that wants to get out... :D

[AudioArchitect]

Alright so I was able to dig up the first formal review of the new Fathom.

"The JL Audio Fathom f113 is the single best A/V product I have experienced. The improvement it made to my home-theater system was stunning. I’ve never heard better."

Here is the link for information:

http://www.hometheatersound.com/equipment/jl_fathom_f113.htm

[swerveddy]

Alright so I was able to dig up the first formal review of the new Fathom.

"The JL Audio Fathom f113 is the single best A/V product I have experienced. The improvement it made to my home-theater system was stunning. I’ve never heard better."

Here is the link for information:

http://www.hometheatersound.com/equipment/jl_fathom_f113.htm



Bosso was quoting from that review already ;)

[Pete]

Bosso,

Will you be having mayo or mustard with those words? :)

[bossobass]

Bosso,

Will you be having mayo or mustard with those words? :)

Hi Pete,

Well, I sure hope it goes that way, and I'll probably need both mustard and mayo, since I laid a big pile 'o words out there. :p :)

Bosso

[bossobass]

...careful Bosso...the iconoclast in you is rearing its head again :D ...and i love it!...i feel the same thing whenever i read the "subjective reviews"...i try to dilute my posts as much as possible but it's "hard" being the "shepherd" when it's the wolf that wants to get out... :D

Hey Kram, I owe ya a big. Every time I read one of your posts (and I try to read them all, as they're full of great stuff), I learn a new word. :D :cool:

Bosso

[ssabripo]

Hey Kram, I owe ya a big. Every time I read one of your posts (and I try to read them all, as they're full of great stuff), I learn a new word. :D :cool:

Bosso
yo Bo'shizzle my nizzle.....you got PM! :p

[nitro1max1]

Where is a good place to get a price on F113?

[guy80]

Where is a good place to get a price on F113?
JL's website: find local dealer

Hoping to here some JLs at the Rocky Mountain Audio Fest.

[nethomas]

For anyone in the midwest, I bought my pair from Independence Audio/Video in Independence, Missouri. Ask for George Wilson. I got a good deal, but I also bought a Sony KDS70 XBR2.

[craigsub]

It is always fascinating what a good review will do. I called back the store who would match Federal's $1900 price a few weeks ago ... they are now willing to go $2500. Still, that is a pretty solid street price for the unit on its own.

[guy80]

It is always fascinating what a good review will do. I called back the store who would match Federal's $1900 price a few weeks ago ... they are now willing to go $2500. Still, that is a pretty solid street price for the unit on its own.

What/where is this "Federal" store? Federal stereo website?
$1900 sounds like a steal!

[craigsub]

Federal is not an authorized dealer, and the (anonymity was assured them) dealer I talked to was dealing in an "unknown" quantity last month, but the positive review has stirred up interest ... supply and demand. :cool:

[nitro1max1]

No dealers close to me. I wound if one of the car audio dealer could get one for me?

[bossobass]

Bosso,

Will you be having mayo or mustard with those words? :)

I realize that the F113 has 30% more displacement than the F112, and 1KW more power, but I still think I'm in no danger of adding crow to my dinner plans any time soon... ;)

anyone have comments on this? (http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/speakers/1853/test-bench-jl-audio-fathom-f112-subwoofer.html)

Bosso

[MIkeDuke]

I don't know. I was expecting more(too much?). "it was not able to reproduce 25 Hz with less than 10% distortion. It can make plenty of sound at this frequency (104 dB), but with 40% distortion where the upper harmonics are approaching the amplitude of the fundamental"
I mean, I know I am no expect but am I reading that right? 25Hz at 40% distortion?
Kind of high right?

[Nicholas Mosher]

It also only has a single band pEQ.

Sounds like a great home theater sub, but I think my current lust is still directed towards the Velo DD's for crisp 2ch bass. And for that price you could snag at least two PB12-Plus/2 units for a home theater in addition to a Velodyne SMS-1 pEQ, an SPL meter & AVIA (for the rest of the system) along with a few DVDs...

Looks cool, but I want to see some good measurements ala Ed, Ikka, Craig, etc.

Sounds like it's a big-brother to a sunfire sub. Brings down the house, but huge amounts of distortion.

[kramskoi]

I realize that the F113 has 30% more displacement than the F112, and 1KW more power, but I still think I'm in no danger of adding crow to my dinner plans any time soon... ;)

anyone have comments on this? (http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/speakers/1853/test-bench-jl-audio-fathom-f112-subwoofer.html)

Bosso

let's just hope the f113 puts in a better showing than this :confused: ...the order of harmonic distortion is'nt indicated but it's within 10 dB (-8 to be exact) of the fundamental :eek: ...this is puzzling...especially corner loaded...i'm guessing 10% limited 25 Hz is somewhat less than 100 dB...and considering most LP's are over 3 meters away, this would indicate rather lackluster output...don't even think about 20 Hz...i guess the 22 Hz limit that i remember seeing is about right for this sub...this is definitely a small room solution, given the test results...

I would expect the f113 to put in a better showing, but we must remember that "single" sealed subs are limited in more ways than one...we'll see...only 12" and the room WAS on the larger side of things but... :confused:

That said, this is the most chilling thing that i've heard about a subwoofer ever...

"it was not able to reproduce 25 Hz with less than 10% distortion." -Tom N.

...incredible!

[Nicholas Mosher]

Well, a review from Tom Nousaine... doesn't get much better than that!

Yeah, I don't think this unit is on my list of curiosities anymore. :eek:

EDIT: I see that review is for the f112 and not f113 now. But still not to good a showing for a 12" sealed sub at that price level.

[nethomas]

You might want to give it a listen before you add it to, or take it off of any list.

[msmith_JL]

Suffice it to say that we are quite puzzled by the test results Mr. Nousaine reported. In no way do these results agree with our own measurements and what we know to be the performance capabilities of the f112.

Having not been present during the testing, we do not know if there was some issue with the product or with the measurement setup that could possibly explain these results. I'll leave it at that until we get more information.

Best regards,

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.

[MIkeDuke]

Repeatability is the key here. Another test seems almost mandatory in my mind. If it was just a freak thing, it would be nice to know.

[slybasil]

I just purchased a JL F113.

I have heard a lot about the SVS subs in this forum but I have not been able to hear one. I didnt want to pay the deposit to test one and then return it if I didnt like it. So I checked out the Jl at a local shop here in O.C Calif area. I liked what i heard and he offered me a good deal so I pulled the trigger and took it home Friday.

I hooked it up today and as much as I liked it in the store it was better in my house. Incredible deep bass. It was tight and fast. I played WOTW and when that thing comes out of the ground I swear you think it's coming out of the floor. It just rocked the house and my chest was pounding. I dont know how to explain it. It wasnt just loud it was ....real... you could feel the movie. You couldnt tell it was a "subwoofer playing". Sorry I cant explain it better. I didnt even have the level turned up more then 1/3. I never even took the time to "set it up" I just placed it in the corner and turned it on. I also played some music. A little BOb DYlan and then Chris Issac. The sound was so smoothe and warm. It gave the music a whole new level of enjoyment.


One of these is enough for my room, 3500 cubes, but I would love to see what 2 would do. I feel myself being drawn towards the dark side aka...Upgrade.....

[nethomas]

I have twin SVS CS-Ultras with the Crown K1 amp. They sound excellent. I have to sell them because I need something smaller(as in not as tall) I bought two of the Jl Audio F113 and I have to tell you they are incredable. I don't have the eqipment in my living room to do the measurments that Mr. Nusaine has, but I'll tell you this: I don't know that I have personally ever heard anything better. Certainly not in my home. I have had NHT, Hsu and SVS and they can't compare. They also don't cost as much, so I would expect them to keep up. Just my thoughts!! Any one wants to PM me I can talk more. I don't want to HiJack the thread. I am not a fan boy for anyone, except my beautiful wife!!

[ransac]

Remember, TN was testing an F112, not an F113. He got some respectable numbers for the size of his room. From what I saw, it was a rather sparse review compared to TN's other reviews. I don't think this was a planned test. Maybe he is just feeling it out to see if he wants to do a full-blown setup.

[nethomas]

Good point. I know that Kal Rubinson has a review coming in the Nov. Stereophile. Maybe it will be a more in depth review.

[SteveCallas]

This reminds me of that Earthquake PR sub situation - the one that was supposed to be strong to the teens but died off below 30hz :) I like watching these things play out.

[thehun]

Kal doesn't do objective data,maybe JA steps in but I never saw him do sub measurments.
I find subjective review for subs useless, as far as any merit for poissble future purchase consideration.

[Kal Rubinson]

Kal doesn't do objective data,maybe JA steps in but I never saw him do sub measurments.
I find subjective review for subs useless, as far as any merit for poissble future purchase consideration.Actually, I often do measurements but, mostly, for my own help in setup and for insight. OTOH, they are not comprehensive and rarely see print.............as in this case.

[nethomas]

Kal doesn't do objective data,maybe JA steps in but I never saw him do sub measurments.
I find subjective review for subs useless, as far as any merit for poissble future purchase consideration.
Hun, are you saying that you have to see a bench report on a sub before you can determine if it sounds good or not? What if you listened to the sub, or any speaker and it really sounded great too you, but the bench report wasn't what you expected. Would you disregard your ears? I really don't mean to be argumentative, but are we a bit hung up on numbers here?

[QQQ]

It seems to me you are putting words in his mouht and he is quite reasonably saying that he doesn't care for "ohh ahh, it sounded so fast and deep" without ANY measurements. A good review should *IMO* combine objective measurements with subjective perceptions.

[slybasil]

I never could understand what the numbers meant. For me it was about the quality of what I was hearing. Nothing more.

Our intellectuall side is constantly asking "what are the numbers".
IMHO the only question that needs to be answered is "Do I like the way it sounds?"

[QQQ]

I never could understand what the numbers meant. For me it was about the quality of what I was hearing. Nothing more.

Our intellectuall side is constantly asking "what are the numbers".
IMHO the only question that needs to be answered is "Do I like the way it sounds?"
And do you suppose that if I read about a product and learn that it exhibits 50% distortion at 30 HZ at 85 dB, that might tell me something about whether I will "like the way it sounds"? Do you suppose that might tell me that's not a subwoofer I need to listen to? If I know that the reproduction of deep black is important to me and I also know that a projector has a contrast ratio of 800:1, might I know that is a projector I need not bother looking at? If you are purchasing a car do you need to drive every one, or does looking at the specs perhaps help you to determine which ones you actually want to test drive?

[QQQ]

Our intellectuall side is constantly asking "what are the numbers".
Speak for yourself please. If that's the primary/only thing someone’s intellectual side is constantly asking, they may need to exercise their intellectual side a little more.

[nethomas]

QQQ, I agree with you up to a point. However, as a doctor, more than once in my career I have seen "lab" that just dosen't make sense!! It looks wrong, but the patient looks "OK". Sometimes you have to look at the patient. Maybe the lab is off!! So I say(as someone who owns a pair of F113) listen to the sub and tell me whether you like it or not. I don't have to justify my purchase. I auditioned the subs before I bought them, and if anything they sound much better in my home than they did at the store. These are just my thoughts, I could be wrong. :)

[slybasil]

qqq

you are probably right. except a car isnt going to drive any faster for you then it will for someone else. Black is the same black for you or me. the contrast 800-1 is the same for you as me. The specs are specific for those types of items. But for music IMO there is the emotional quota that you just cant put on paper. Some people cant stand the sound of nails on a chaulk board others barely notice. MUsic/sound is so much more personal. After all isnt that why we spend the money we do for this. Not because of intellect but because of emotion. Sometimes the specs dont represent what sounds good to a person. I certainly understand your point it makes sense to have the numbers. What I call deep or fast might be diff for others.

The JL 113, IMO, is a kick ass sub. with or with out numbers. give it a try before the numbers come out and let us know what you think. You can probably give a better personal opionion they I did. damn... I didnt even know what LPF was until I hooked up the sub.

[slybasil]

nethomas

What was the diference in the performance when you hooked up the second sub?
I have one F113 and that seems enough. what size is the room and where did you place them. I noticed in the Install manual it suggested that for two subs opposite corners diagonal for best results.

[msmith_JL]

There is definitely a place for subjective analysis and a place for objective analysis. In general, subwoofers that sound good also measure well. It is quite unlikely that something exhibiting 40% THD would "trick" experienced listeners into liking it.

We have contacted S&V to go over the test methodology and determine whether there was an anomaly in the test or a product failure... the subwoofer was shipped from Florida (JL) to Maryland (Dan Kumin) to New York (photography) and then to Detroit (Mr. Nousaine), so it's possible that something happened to it on its travels. They have agreed to re-test the original (which Mr. Nousaine still has) and a replacement, if necessary.

Best regards,

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.

[msmith_JL]

Keep in mind that the exact same f112 was used by Dan Kumin for the subjective review in S&V. His comments on its performance in no way indicate a distortion problem of any kind or a lack of low frequency extension or a lack of output capability.

MOVIE PERFORMANCE Here's the executive summary: The JL f112 outperformed my everyday sub, a somewhat more compact sealed 12-incher of similarly lofty price, by an audible margin in both depth and power — the first visiting woofer to do so in some time. I tried lots of film and music tracks, and while passages rating only "very demanding" yielded no audible differences, my "most demanding" list told the tale.

On the helicopter rotor-beats from Chapter 4 of Black Hawk Down, at cinema-reference levels, the f112 produced a clearly more thoracic overall effect. When playing the full speaker system, this was discernible only to a practiced ear, but it was perfectly obvious with the full-range speakers muted. Plus, the JL excited rattles in my room that my regular woof could not. More important, it delivered tangibly more near-infrasonic gut-thumping from stuff like that old standby, the 'zilla footfalls from Godzilla.

MUSIC PERFORMANCE Music playback was just as impressive. Even with a fairly high crossover (80 Hz) dialed in from the processor, the JL produced a smooth, continuous blend with smaller sats, including exposed material such as solo string bass. I heard no hint of sub artifacts that called attention to its location, nor any of the "boom," "bloom," or "bloat" that afflict many subs. The f112 was invariably tight and detailed. And it was highly musical — along with powerful and low.

Something simply doesn't add up.

[Nicholas Mosher]

You can get plenty of house-crumbling power out of a sub with high-distortion. But sharp hits and clarity take a big loss. For instance, with low-distortion servo-controlled subs (Like the Velo DD's), you can back off on the servo control which will increase distortion, but allows greater SPL's. It's just not as accurate. To many people SPL without low-distortion is not an option.

As far as numbers go... they are one of the primary tools in designing the subs and analyzing it's performance during the design process. I would agree with the post that says a good sounding sub usually exhibits a relatively flat frequency response with deep extension, low distortion and high SPL capability. Of course the ultimate decision is in auditioning, but If I'm looking for a new product, numbers are one of my primary means to focus my search. If I'm looking for a ragtop that will do neck-snapping pulls on the on-ramp, I'm not going to look at a Geo Metro Sport and think "Well the numbers indicate a 12sec 0-60 time, but maybe a test drive will make a difference...". The same reason why the doctor above orders lab tests in the first place. It's not everything, but a good indication of what's going on without even seeing the patient. It also provides a means of comparison between different subs with quantifiable information.

Thats said, for many people - high distortion subs are great for home theater, and I'm sure many people will enjoy the JL units which seem very capable of high SPL's for their size.

[bossobass]

There's no mystery in TN's methodology. He sets up in the comfort of his listening space, corner loads the sub and sets up his mic 2 meters away.

I've never been a fan of TN's results, as they're only comparable to his own tests of other subs and not repeatable except by him, but...

If you look at FabFrankie's compilation (http://members.cox.net/fabulousfrankie/Nousaine.htm) of the subs TN has tested, updated through January of '06, the criteria is explained. You can insert the F112 by the numbers.

High harmonic distortion down low is usually perceived as tighter, more percussive subjectively by the listening comparos I've run of a sub with high HD at 20-30Hz vs a very low HD sub.

TN said that output isn't limited at 25Hz, as he recorded 104dB, and I would venture a guess that it would only be noticeable as having more impact to a subjective listening session playing soundtracks, without the THD numbers to explain why.

With the music selections, there isn't much below 40Hz that would show itself as high THD either way.

In the 1st 2 octaves HD is of little consequence and actually adds to the experience, IMHO, as most of it is subsonic, but from 20-30Hz, high THD is definitely audible. Whether or not it's offensive or pleasing is in the eye of the beholder as many 2 channel tube amp buffs and 2" analog tape recordists will attest. Those recordists actually play THD like an instrument, something subwoofer purists would (and have)scoff at. I keep an open mind where THD is concerned. Listening is the best answer to the THD numbers in any case.

Still, Ilkka's early SC and IMD tests indicate that the more offensive distortions follow THD numbers closely, so...?

It will be interesting to see the results of the investigation and the final results vs the Onix Rocket UFW-12 (both versions), Velo's DD-12 and the new SVS sealed 1X12" sub. Although I'm no fan of TN's stuff, I doubt there will be a flaw found in the methodology.

I don't expect much from a sealed 1X12, as I've built and tested many versions, and I'm really looking forward to the numbers of the F-113 and G-213 as they have more of what it takes, IMHO. Early subjectives from new owners of the 113 are very good. It will be interesting to 'see' what they're hearing :)

Bosso

[bossobass]

This reminds me of that Earthquake PR sub situation - the one that was supposed to be strong to the teens but died off below 30hz :) I like watching these things play out.

Like the LLT numbers...oh, wait...that thing never has played out yet :rolleyes:

(Yes, that's a little dig, 'cause you don't get to laugh unless it's the last laugh, where numbers are concerned, IMHO :) )

Bosso

[Randybes]

FWIW, I think TN stated to me awhile back that there was no objective standard for testing subs (I think there is now, but correct me if I am wrong) and he has been doing them a long time. I agree that his tests are only good in comparing to one another, but I think that is valuable for those that he has tested.

That said, it doesn't mean the test of the JL was not flawed by a bad sample or any number of other things.

[craigsub]

I just got off the phone, and have ordered a single F112 and dual F113's ... They should be here by Friday.

[kramskoi]

I just got off the phone, and have ordered a single F112 and dual F113's ... They should be here by Friday.

that's good news...maybe we'll be able to put this matter to right. ;)

[Nicholas Mosher]

Awesome! :D

I was about ready to post a picture of Tiny Tim with the caption, "If only someone could help us papa!"... :p

[mojomike]

I just got off the phone, and have ordered a single F112 and dual F113's ... They should be here by Friday.

You go, boy!

[Ed Mullen]

In the 1st 2 octaves HD is of little consequence and actually adds to the experience, IMHO, as most of it is subsonic, but from 20-30Hz, high THD is definitely audible. Whether or not it's offensive or pleasing is in the eye of the beholder as many 2 channel tube amp buffs and 2" analog tape recordists will attest.

Bosso

It depends on the spectral breakdown of the harmonics. The higher order and odd order stuff is subjectively perceived as more offensive.

Usually in a sealed subwoofer, the majority of the THD at VLF is derived from the 2nd order harmonic component, which is not terribly offensive subjectively.

Most of the subs I've measured have shown progressively less sound pressure from the upper order harmonic components, typically following a -12 dB/octave slope. So the 10th order and higher stuff is usually -40 dB or (much) lower relative to the fundamental.

But I have seen an interesting exception lately which does speak strongly to the value of the CEA 2010 standard.......

[RMK!]

I just got off the phone, and have ordered a single F112 and dual F113's ... They should be here by Friday.


What, no Gotham? ... while your at it, why not throw an 1812 into the mix. :D

[MIkeDuke]

I just got off the phone, and have ordered a single F112 and dual F113's ... They should be here by Friday.
Sweeeet :D

[nethomas]

The Gotham won't be availabe until mid 2007.

[bsheldon]

Craig, great to see you ordered a couple of the JL's. Now we will have some real objective data and direct comparisons to put the JL's in their proper place in the pecking order of things--as opposed to speculation that we have now. Can't wait to see how these beauties stack up.

[Ron Alcasid]

I read through this thread and the SV review. There seems to be some conflicting information regarding prices. The SV review states the f112 starts at $2220 but I've seen $2700 mentioned in another thread. The early press releases stated $2000. What's the definitive pricing on these subs?

[kgveteran]

Aside from Ed Mullens statement, I gotta go back to the DIY section.All this hype on a little 13" sub that may or may not cost 2,500.00 is a bit much.

(1)Driver+(1)box+(1)plateamp= no reason to get all worked up :rolleyes:

[msmith_JL]

The MSRP of the f112 is $2600 (satin black) and $2700 (gloss black). The SV review is incorrect on pricing (they printed the old pricing).

The MSRP of the f113 is $3200 (satin black) and $3300 (gloss black).

Dealers set the actual selling price, of course.

[msmith_JL]

I plan to post the full results of our recreation of TN's test here, but I realize that it may be met with skepticism due to it being manufacturer supplied data. I can tell you that from the first run of tests we did this morning, there was definitely something wrong during TN's f112 test. We're able to achieve 100.3dB at 25 Hz with less than 10% THD in our theater room at 2 meters. More to come.

I look forward to seeing Craig's test results as well.

[cschang]

I plan to post the full results of our recreation of TN's test here, but I realize that it may be met with skepticism due to it being manufacturer supplied data. I can tell you that from the first run of tests we did this morning, there was definitely something wrong during TN's f112 test. We're able to achieve 100.3dB at 25 Hz with less than 10% THD in our theater room at 2 meters. More to come.

I look forward to seeing Craig's test results as well.
Is your room the same size as TN's? As I recall...he has a pretty big room.

[msmith_JL]

It measures 16' x 21' x 9.5' (about 3200 cu.ft.)

It's not as big, but it's not +40 dB smaller, either. :)

[HOTDIGITY]

It will be interesting to read the test results once Craig can test these.

Not many people have the means to assemble such a collection of subs who are willing to do this for the common man, who could never do these comparisons on our own. Bravo, Sir! :)

[craigsub]

I cannot seem to find the measurements in the Sound and Vision report ... The link takes one to the review, but there is no data posted.

And It looks like an outdoor GP test won't happen for the next 10 days ... nothing but RAIN in the forecast... :rolleyes:

[Randybes]

It really is too bad that S&V reviews a relatively expensive product that most people who would buy would really be interested in the full test results printed and they bury it somewhere on the web site. I can see doing that on equipment that is not appealing to a more refined crowd but not on a $2000+ subwoofer.

[mojomike]

I cannot seem to find the measurements in the Sound and Vision report ... The link takes one to the review, but there is no data posted.



Something has changed on that site. They've pulled the test data.

[HOTDIGITY]

I could not find a frequency response spec on the JL site for the subs :confused:

[msmith_JL]

I believe S&V pulled it from their website pending a re-test.

I have a hard copy of it, so here's the claimed results:

Tom Nousaine wrote in "Test Bench: JL Audio Fathom f113" on the S&V website:
Frequency response at 2 meters: 24-103 Hz +/- 2.5 dB
Bass Limits (lowest freq. and maximum SPL with limit of 10% distortion at 2 meters in a large room): 32 Hz at 106 dB SPL
107 dB average SPL from 32-62 Hz.
107.1 dB maximum SPL at 62 Hz.
"Bandwidth uniformity": 98%

I measured the JL Audio Fathom f112 subwoofer's bass limits with it set to maximum bandwidth and full gain and placed in the optimal corner of a 7,500 cu.ft. room. In a smaller room you could expect 2 to 3 Hz deeper extension and as much as a 3dB greater sound pressure level (SPL).

Although the f112 has a relatively high low-frequency output (104dB or greater at every frequency from 32 Hz up to the top of its range), it was not able to reproduce 25Hz with less than 10% distortion. It can make plenty of sound at this frequency (104 dB), but with 40% distortion where the harmonics are approaching the amplitude of the fundamental. Nonetheless, it delivered a solid 107 dB maximum output at 32 Hz and had excellent, even output across its frequency range, measuring 98% bass uniformity. Average output was a strong 107dB from 32 Hz to 62 Hz.

We believe that the SPL and distortion data he arrived at are erroneous or the result of a damaged product.

[craigsub]

What, no Gotham? ... while your at it, why not throw an 1812 into the mix. :D

Maybe next year ... :D

Seriously, Getting these subs here is going to add a lot to the overall subwoofer shootout, and kudos to Manville for approving the JL subs being added to the mix here.

Of course, this does mean watching WOTW for the 12,784th time this weekend ... :eek:

[cschang]

Of course, this does mean watching WOTW for the 12,784th time this weekend ... :eek:
Oh yeah...twist your arm.

mziegler and I did some comparative listening last night of the Ascend CMT-340SE and NHT Classic Three. After we were done, we cranked up WOTW, and we weren't even comparing subs. :D

[ransac]

Oh yeah...twist your arm.

mziegler and I did some comparative listening last night of the Ascend CMT-340SE and NHT Classic Three. After we were done, we cranked up WOTW, and we weren't even comparing subs. :D
I know this isn't the speaker forum, but I have been seriously considering the Ascends. How did they sound and how did they compare to the NHTs?

[QQQ]

The Gotham won't be availabe until mid 2007.
I am confused by this statement. The Gotham won best sound at CEDIA for 2004. How can it not be available until 2007? Could someone in the know elaborate?

[msmith_JL]

Here are our measurement results following TN's methodology as closely as possible.

[QQQ]

I could not find a frequency response spec on the JL site for the subs :confused:
While this may seem to contradict my earlier posts in this thread, it does not...

This is not unheard of and IMO not necessarily a bad move by JL. The subwoofer "specs" published by many manufacturers are all but worthless. And many consumers unfortunately look at "25 - 120 Hz" listed by one sub manufacturer and "18 - 120 Hz" by another and are drawn towards the latter, even though the specs on the latter are exagerrated, or inaccurate, or +/- 10dB. Not publishing a spec *may* encourage consumers to seek them out and listen. There reasoning could be "why bother to publish a spec when almost everyone lies".

[msmith_JL]

I am confused by this statement. The Gotham won best sound at CEDIA for 2004. How can it not be available until 2007? Could someone in the know elaborate?

We experienced considerable delays in bringing this product to market. We fully expect to ship in 2007 around mid-year.

[msmith_JL]

There reasoning could be "why bother to publish a spec when almost everyone lies".

Yup, you got it!

They go really low and don't play very high and they stay pretty darned flat in between. :D

[QQQ]

We experienced considerable delays in bringing this product to market. We fully expect to ship in 2007 around mid-year.
Well, being in the industry, and having seen some major time lags between product announcements and product shipments, I have to give you some type of an award for the best product delay :D.

[msmith_JL]

:o Thanks, QQQ! Did we set some kind of record???

It is certainly embarrassing on one level and we apologize to those who are eagerly anticipating the product, but we have this damned policy about making sure it's absolutely right before we ship it.

[SteveCallas]

High harmonic distortion down low is usually perceived as tighter, more percussive subjectively by the listening comparos I've run of a sub with high HD at 20-30Hz vs a very low HD sub.
Yep, I'm glad you said that. Based on the "subjective" listening impressions I have read on this site and others, though they may not want to admit it, there are people who prefer the sound of more THD down low. Now you combine this with an already boosted upper bass range with a natural sealed subwoofer, and the myth or stereotype is easily explained. ;)

[cschang]

I know this isn't the speaker forum, but I have been seriously considering the Ascends. How did they sound and how did they compare to the NHTs?
I'll send you a PM.

[Willd]

Yep, I'm glad you said that. Based on the "subjective" listening impressions I have read on this site and others, though they may not want to admit it, there are people who prefer the sound of more THD down low. Now you combine this with an already boosted upper bass range with a natural sealed subwoofer, and the myth or stereotype is easily explained. ;)

That shouldn't surprise anyone. The same thing can apply to speakers as well. 'Tis not always the most "accurate" speaker/sub that sounds most pleasing to the listener. ;)

[msmith_JL]

Before this gets sidetracked into a discussion regarding high THD in subs and speakers, you may want to look at the measurement results I posted on page 3 of this thread (post #85).

Thanks.

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.

[Rijax]

Yup, you got it!

They go really low and don't play very high and they stay pretty darned flat in between. :D LOL! Now there's a measurement even I can understand. :o ;)

[craigsub]

Guys, I thought everyone might like to see the graphs from the newest TrueRTA software. I just got a new laptop, with a soundcard rated to 10 Hz. Here are graphs of the Hsu VTF-3 HO with no EQ, and with just using the SMS1 AUTO-EQ.

The Hsu is in its 16 Hz tune, turbo installed.

We will be doing similar graphs with the Fathoms, and also look for more graphs of movies scenes using the newer software over the next few weeks.

Hsu with no EQ:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/hsunoeq.jpg

Hsu with Auto EQ.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/hsuautoeq.jpg

Even the Auto EQ function with the SMS-1 did a very nice job cleaning up the FR. The subwoofer is being crossed @ 80 Hz in the Parasound, so the software "pushed" the response above 80 Hz "up" .... when running TrueRTA graph, the crossover is defeated, so the response "looks" higher than it really is, if that makes sense.

[craigsub]

Here is the JL Audio Chart ....

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/jlaudio.jpg

[monsteraudio]

Well I love my F112 great powerful sub in a small package

[bossobass]

Yep, I'm glad you said that. Based on the "subjective" listening impressions I have read on this site and others, though they may not want to admit it, there are people who prefer the sound of more THD down low. Now you combine this with an already boosted upper bass range with a natural sealed subwoofer, and the myth or stereotype is easily explained. ;)

Unless you consider the P'Digm servos, Brian Ding's servo kits, DIY using Adire's ultra low distortion drivers and, of course, the lowest THD subs out there, Velo's servo subs, and, apparently the JL subs (as Manville's posted numbers seem to show).

Don't take my comment too far out of context, it was a general, not a defining statement. The 'myth' is adhered to by many of the brightest guys in the field, and I doubt your explanation would be much of a consideration to them.

Manville,

Most impressive numbers. I imagine they show some room/boundary gain and, even though these are THD limited numbers, they indicate a very smooth in-room response above 30Hz.

Does the F-112 have a HP filter, and, if so, where and what order? Or, should we wait for the ultimate GP measurements or feedback from owners? It's impossible to tell from the THD limited output numbers and I'm curious to know. :)

Here's an overlay of TN's initial numbers onto the chart Manville posted for those who'd like to see the huge difference between JL's test and TN's initial report...

Bosso

[NHTFRED]

Well, it is nice to see all of the interest in these subs especially after such a long delay! The listening public appears to be eagerly awaiting reviews from consumers and professionals alike. JL seems to be on the edge of really making a run into the home market with their powered speakers that have some of the same technology as these subs. Whether audiophiles will embrace these powered speakers as easily as they are embracing their new subs is anyones guess. ML, why did JL decide to build powered speakers? Kinda a gamble dont you think? However I hear they are quite good. When will they start to ship? :)

[msmith_JL]

Nhtfred,

We will announce more details on our powered full-range products at next year's CEDIA. This year it was just a sneak preview at the direction of our full-range products. I guess you do limit your audience a bit by going powered and digitally corrected but if your goal is ultimate performance this approach is really impossible to beat with conventional passive designs. I'm sure we will also offer some more conventional full-range products in due course.

[NHTFRED]

Thats great. One thing I have picked up from these forums and through meeting a few of your guys out at CES is that you really seem to love this stuff. I would imagine that everyone in the audio industry has some form of affection for great sound quality, but it really seems to be a passion for you guys. Congratulations on the great early reviews, too bad Stereophile misspelled the name of your company on their cover, but at least the brief review was positive.

[craigsub]

Manville ... If I actually DO this during the WOTW Lightning scene:

http://home.jlaudio.com/graphics/HomeSection/HT_HomePage_MI.jpg

Does it void the warranty ? This looks like a SLIGHT over excursion .... :D

[HOTDIGITY]

That is a nice 3-D exploded model! I wonder if they are using Solid-Works. I did some similar work at a company I worked for back in the mid/late 90's. Wish I was still doing 3-D stuff.

Back to the original topic.........

[msmith_JL]

Thats great. One thing I have picked up from these forums and through meeting a few of your guys out at CES is that you really seem to love this stuff. I would imagine that everyone in the audio industry has some form of affection for great sound quality, but it really seems to be a passion for you guys. Congratulations on the great early reviews, too bad Stereophile misspelled the name of your company on their cover, but at least the brief review was positive.

Thanks for the kind words, Fred. We do love this stuff.

We were surprised at the brief nature of the "review" in Stereophile. We thought it would be a full equipment report but it turned out to be a brief item in Kal's column. Not that this is a bad thing, we just expected more in-depth coverage. We were also dismayed that they put "JL Labs" on the cover instead of "JL Audio". :mad: At least they corrected it in their online article after we mentioned the error to them.

We also just received an Editor's Choice for the f112 in the latest issue of The Perfect Vision (online now), which is a really nice honor. Robert Harley is doing a full review which we expect to see in the next issue. I really can't complain about press coverage in general... apart from the mysterious TN test, everything has been very positive and given us a nice boost which is leading to excellent sales. I know at least three members of this forum who sought out a dealer and purchased Fathoms in the last month, which is very gratifying as well.

It's all good. :)

[msmith_JL]

Manville ... If I actually DO this during the WOTW Lightning scene:

http://home.jlaudio.com/graphics/HomeSection/HT_HomePage_MI.jpg

Does it void the warranty ? This looks like a SLIGHT over excursion .... :D

WOTW at WOT will do that... careful! :D

Also, that is actually a retouched photo of the display we used at CEDIA... it's not a 3D rendering (although we do use Solidworks).

[NHTFRED]

I had a Sunfire sub that did that one time, cost me 300 bucks plus shipping to get it put back together!

[nethomas]

I watched WOTW last night for the first time since I bought the Twin F113. The unexplained rumble in the midwest about 8:15pm was the first time the machine came out of ground in the movie. My lab (think 85lb child) got on the couch with me!! Damn it was awsome.

[TrzVpr]

Thanks for the kind words, Fred. We do love this stuff.

We were surprised at the brief nature of the "review" in Stereophile. We thought it would be a full equipment report but it turned out to be a brief item in Kal's column. Not that this is a bad thing, we just expected more in-depth coverage. We were also dismayed that they put "JL Labs" on the cover instead of "JL Audio". :mad: At least they corrected it in their online article after we mentioned the error to them.

We also just received an Editor's Choice for the f112 in the latest issue of The Perfect Vision (online now), which is a really nice honor. Robert Harley is doing a full review which we expect to see in the next issue. I really can't complain about press coverage in general... apart from the mysterious TN test, everything has been very positive and given us a nice boost which is leading to excellent sales. I know at least three members of this forum who sought out a dealer and purchased Fathoms in the last month, which is very gratifying as well.

It's all good. :)


I SOOO want to be number four.. :)

I got a good job here in Aerospace and both me and the Wifey are working plenty of overtime and both have decided that we will treat ourselves to a descent HT(40%)/Music(60%) system..

I am waiting for the shootout plus other reviews to come out but when a get a good deal on a pair of F113's I will defenitely bite the bullet..

Manville, wanna help me get a considerable discount?

Also, I havent bought speakers yet and was really considering the Paradigm signatures but I have always loved Active speakers.. Any more info on the powered speakers? I will do more music than movies and am very interested in more info, even it means having to wait a little..

This thread has me very excited as I check it daily for updates. =0

[Randybes]

I watched WOTW last night for the first time since I bought the Twin F113. The unexplained rumble in the midwest about 8:15pm was the first time the machine came out of ground in the movie. My lab (think 85lb child) got on the couch with me!! Damn it was awsome.So that is what I felt in Kansas City :D

[craigsub]

The tracking #'s were sent today, and the pair of 113's, the single 112, the Hsu VTF-3 HO's, and the PB12-Plus/2 are gonna get abused this weekend.

Look for new max output charts on each with a variety of movies, as it is still raining, and no GP tests can be done.

[xcjago]

Looking forward to it Craig!

[Davidt1]

Here is a review of the JL F112 at Sound and Vision if anyone is interested.

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/speakers/1884/jl-audio-fathom-f112-subwoofer.html

The reviewer basically thinks it's a phenomenal sub. It's out of my reach though. :(

[thehun]

Actually, I often do measurements but, mostly, for my own help in setup and for insight. OTOH, they are not comprehensive and rarely see print.............as in this case.

Right,
I meant, measurments what Ed, TN, or Keith Yates does with subs.

[bossobass]

hun,

I agree, and would add Ilkka's name in there. PITA he lives in Europe, but I think he's the most progressive guy out there, and likely has more time to devote to the subject than Sir Edward.

TN's list doesn't include most of the top subs available today and is only good for it's own numbers. Yates isn't likely to ever do another shootout.

Pretty narrow field, IMO.

I say get one to Ilkka. And, hurry up, it's about to snow at the North Pole, or wherever he lives. :D

Bosso

[msmith_JL]

Unfortunately, we don't have a 230V, 50 Hz version of the Fathoms at this point, so it might be tough for Ilkka to test.

We are preparing ground plane measurements according to Keith Yates' methodology. Will get those up on the JL Audio website as soon as possible.

Also, we are sending a second f112 to TN... after re-testing the originial unit he is pretty sure there is something seriously wrong with it.

Best regards,

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.

[Pete]

Bosso,

Mustard or Mayo? Maybe those words would go down more easily if you dipped them in a really nice olive oil.

[CSEmoses]

Did any of you notice that the room they measured in at JL is 3200, and the other room referenced was 7200 cubic feet? seems like apples and oranges, in rooms with that much difference.

Course, i might be missing something ...

[craigsub]

One Fathom 113 is now hooked up and running in the system. Rather than run a bunch of measurements now, I ran the ARO calibration and am going to listen to some music, then watch a bass spectacular movie or 2, report the subjective stuff, THEN take the measurements.

[msmith_JL]

Did any of you notice that the room they measured in at JL is 3200, and the other room referenced was 7200 cubic feet? seems like apples and oranges, in rooms with that much difference.

Course, i might be missing something ...

There will be some difference at very low frequencies but not the kind of discrepancies between our numbers and TN's... it's more like Red Delicious and McIntosh apples, rather than apples and oranges. :)

[TrzVpr]

One Fathom 113 is now hooked up and running in the system. Rather than run a bunch of measurements now, I ran the ARO calibration and am going to listen to some music, then watch a bass spectacular movie or 2, report the subjective stuff, THEN take the measurements.


Awesome... :D Will be checking this thread in a couple of hours... =)

[xcjago]

Me too!

[swerveddy]

this should be good :p

the suspense is killing me :eek:

[craigsub]

The joy of having kids ... My 9 year old wanted to watch "Monster House" ... The movie was pretty entertaining. The Fathom can definately shake a room, too.

There is a scene in which the house comes alive, with tree trunks for legs... and it starts walking down a street. Think Jurassic Park ... and a single Fathom 113 had the entire room shaking. It was deep, visceral, and VERY tight.

I have never watched this movie before, so a comparison with other subs is not yet possible, but the 113 has serious potential.

More later ... :)

[bossobass]

Bosso,

Mustard or Mayo? Maybe those words would go down more easily if you dipped them in a really nice olive oil.

Pete,

I prefer mayo, but my Doc says not a good idea... ;)

Here are Ilkka's 2M GP results of the PB-12/2 thingy in 20Hz tune.

Let's remember what I said: "There's little chance that the Fathom "...played deeper, louder, and tighter than the SVS [SVS PB12-Plus/2] with any material I chose."

I'd be very surprised if this is true in any sense unless non-linear distortions are not considered. Even then, the Fathom will have a tough time matching output with a 2X12" ported sub from 15-30Hz.

Above 30Hz, it's possible, but if the subs were level matched in the same system, I doubt it would be easy to catch that one sub played deeper and louder."

Then, remember also that Ilkka's numbers are ground plane, not corner loaded in a room.

Now, Craig, OTOH, has the 113. I expect that sub to be a different story... Let's strap in and watch the show.

Bosso

[craigsub]

Bosso ... According to the weather forecast, I may get to GP a bunch of subwoofers the weekend of the 4th and 5th .... If this happens, it will consist of:

QS response curves, and max output @ 16, 20, 25, 31, 40 and 50 Hz from each sub. It will be raw RTA graphs, with distortion being a function of harmonics as shown on the graph.

The Fathom is a pretty darn nice sub - I am looking forward to spending meaningful time with it this weekend... :)

[NHTFRED]

Pete,

I prefer mayo, but my Doc says not a good idea... ;)

Here are Ilkka's 2M GP results of the PB-12/2 thingy in 20Hz tune.

Let's remember what I said: "There's little chance that the Fathom "...played deeper, louder, and tighter than the SVS [SVS PB12-Plus/2] with any material I chose."

I'd be very surprised if this is true in any sense unless non-linear distortions are not considered. Even then, the Fathom will have a tough time matching output with a 2X12" ported sub from 15-30Hz.

Above 30Hz, it's possible, but if the subs were level matched in the same system, I doubt it would be easy to catch that one sub played deeper and louder."

Then, remember also that Ilkka's numbers are ground plane, not corner loaded in a room.

Now, Craig, OTOH, has the 113. I expect that sub to be a different story... Let's strap in and watch the show.

Bosso

The quote you refrerenced to above was refering to the 113 not the 112, the same sub that Craig has. Are you saying that it is possible for the 113 to play "deeper, tighter, and louder with any material i chose?" Doesnt that conflict with your earlier comments?

[bossobass]

The quote you refrerenced to above was refering to the 113 not the 112, the same sub that Craig has. Are you saying that it is possible for the 113 to play "deeper, tighter, and louder with any material i chose?" Doesnt that conflict with your earlier comments?

I'm saying I expect the F113 to be a different story than the F112, and it will be interesting to see if real numbers confirm or deny what the reviewer said.

Moving from a 12 to a 13 and adding 1KW of available power shouldn't add all that much 10% limited output from 15-30Hz.

If JL had designed the sub without HP protection, it certainly would play deeper and tighter, but it's very tough for a sealed 1X13 to best a ported 2X12 at the ported sub's tune, considering THD as the limiting factor.

Craig,

A late season GP session would be just too cool. :cool:

If you do get a chance to measure the F113 outdoors, could you include a couple extra QSs to measure the ELF circuit?

Pics for size comparisons would also be great, if you get a chance and don't mind.

Thanks

Bosso

[TrzVpr]

Pics for size comparisons would also be great, if you get a chance and don't mind.

Thanks

Bosso


+1. :rolleyes:

[craigsub]

Guys, Here are pics of the Fathom 113, Fathom 112, SVS PB12-Plus/2 and the VTF-3 HO with turbo installed.

Pardon the picture quality, as my photography skills pretty much are non-existent.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/PB270048.jpg

[Richard Mayer]

Guys, Here are pics of the Fathom 113, Fathom 112, SVS PB12-Plus/2 and the VTF-3 HO with turbo installed.

Pardon the picture quality, as my photography skills pretty much are non-existent.


Hey,

Those Fathoms look really small! Can they really rock your house? :cool:

[craigsub]

Hey,

Those Fathoms look really small! Can they really rock your house? :cool:

I have the house to myself for the next 9 hours. WOTW is fired up, and so is the software. Look for some SPL charts later .... :)

[Pete]

I don't know about you guys, but any of the subs stacked on the right would be an impediment to marital bliss in our home.

[pbc]

Oddly enough none of Craig's pictures show up on my laptop. I'm beginning to wonder if somehow my wife has messed with my settings to dissallow any pictures of Craig's subs!

This sub doesn't appear to be available in Canada?

[nethomas]

You're right Pete. My wife is understanding, but not that much. She wasn't wild about my CS-Ultras. She likes the F113s that I bought and even thinks they are pretty. I got the gloss finish.

[ransac]

Wusses. :p

[nethomas]

Happily married wuss with two new F113s :D

[TrzVpr]

I don't know about you guys, but any of the subs stacked on the right would be an impediment to marital bliss in our home.

Exactly.. I can convince the Wife on a dual F113 purchase before she'll allow a PB-Ultra/2 in our living room..

Now Lets see if these F113's are worth the premium...

Craig, Thx 4 da pics BTW..

[craigsub]

The F113 is a very good performer. I took some TrueRTA charts at about 3 meters from both it and the SVS PB12-Plus/2 with the WOTW Lightning scene.

The Fathom is subjectively more powerful, deeper, and cleaner that the SVS, in a box which is MUCH smaller. It also delivers excellent performance on a variety of material in our rather difficult room using only the built in ARO system.

While relatively expensive @ $3200, less the price one can negotiate, it does an admirable job in delivering both highly articulate, musical bass along with SOCK you in the gut, visceral, shake the room bass.

MY wife gives it REALLY high marks for its appearance, too.

To give you an idea HOW good it is, I did the graphs of the 113 first, then the Plus/2.

After graphing the Plus/2, I wanted the superior bass of the 113 enough to unplug the Plus/2 and put the 113 back. Lugging these guys around is no easy task.

One note, these graphs are with the latest TrueRTA software, and really should no be compared with the results of the older RTA tests.

Here is the Plus/2 on WOTW.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/svswotwnewrta.jpg

And the Fathom 113

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/113WOTWlght.jpg

[Pradeep]

Looking good. Is the yet-to-be-released G213 basically two F113s in the same enclosure? Is so, it would seem that two F113s would be the way to go (and allow more power to be drawn by the amplifiers via two dedicated AC circuits?).

Also, have you tried playing with the E.L.F. boost setting?

[nethomas]

I think the advantage of the Gotham (if there is one) is it's beautiful, bigger and way more expensive. That appeals to a lot of people. I was told by reps from JL Audio that two F113 would be a better buy than one of the Gothams. Also with two you have the advantage of placement to help with room modes.

[NHTFRED]

Everyone knows I'm a fan of the sealed/EQ'd alignment, as well as the feature set of the JL subs.

At great risk that Ron Stimpson will search out this post a year and a half from now, call it 'recent' and use it to prove my incessant SVS fanboy status, I must say...

There's little chance that the Fathom "...played deeper, louder, and tighter than the SVS [SVS PB12-Plus/2] with any material I chose."

I'd be very surprised if this is true in any sense unless non-linear distortions are not considered. Even then, the Fathom will have a tough time matching output with a 2X12" ported sub from 15-30Hz.

Above 30Hz, it's possible, but if the subs were level matched in the same system, I doubt it would be easy to catch that one sub played deeper and louder.

I would like to see what happens to the Fathom at roll off. That will tell if it plays 'deeper' than the PB thingy.

'Tighter' is the easiest of the 3 claims to buy on face value, as the sealed sub should sound tighter than any resonant system.

I agree that comparative numbers are a must if I'm to eat my words here or any of the Fathom hype is to be accepted and the sub is to be judged 'deeper, louder, tighter' than the SVS, which has been thoroughly tested with the graphs and numbers posted by more than just Sir Edward ;)

Bosso


Looks like the 113 is a top performer

[msmith_JL]

Craig... glad you're having fun! I'm curious to hear your impressions of the f112 (it's a bit easier to move around).... then set up the twin f113's and go to town! :)

Pradeep, the Gotham is similar in performance to what you could expect from a pair of f113's stacked one on top of the other. The Gotham's drivers are a bit different (as is the net box volume per driver) and there is a little bit less power (3800W vs 5000 on the twin f113's), but it all works out about the same in terms of response and SPL.

Feature-wise, the Gotham and the Fathoms are identical. So, in essence Nethomas is correct that the premium for the Gotham is mostly for its cosmetic effect. Given the choice, I would go with multiple Fathoms and distribute them to create a large zone of smooth bass response. We used six f112's at CEDIA this year all along the front wall of the room spread out laterally with a couple displaced vertically and the bass was the best bass we've had yet. For real-world theaters, a pair of smartly placed f113's is a pretty outstanding package.

Best regards,

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.

[craigsub]

Manville .... I just checked my calibration here, and the software showed 93.88 dB on a 94 dB calibrator ... so that part is GOOD.

The 112 is being hooked up now. More WOTW coming up ... :D

[craigsub]

The F112 is in the system, calibrated, and here is the Lightning scene on WOTW. For a small sub, the 112 is AMAZING.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/112wotw.jpg

[craigsub]

Here are some in-room 2 meter measurements for the Fathom 112:

16 Hz

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/11216Hz.jpg

20 Hz

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/11220.jpg

25 Hz (edit: while running charts @ a CPU setting of 5, the TrueRTA shut down the process, and requested the speed be lowered. This is the graph as done at setting#3)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/fathom112at25.jpg

32 Hz

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/11232hz.jpg

[Richard Mayer]

Which number should we look, 'dB SPL pk" or 'dB SPL avg'? There seems to be quite a difference at 25 Hz. What does it mean? :confused: :o

[craigsub]

Richard, Look at the dB SPL Average. I had also posted a graph done at a higher CPU speed setting .. and TrueRTA shut down that "run". I just changed it to the CPU set at 3, the same as all the other graphs.

[craigsub]

Here is the PB12-Plus/2 in the one port blocked, two ports open, 20 Hz setting.

20 Hz sine wave:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/svs20hz.jpg

[msmith_JL]

This sub doesn't appear to be available in Canada?

Canadian distribution is just beginning. Our Canadian distributor is GemSen Distribution in Concord, ON. Please feel free to contact them 905-660-3110 or sales@gemsen.com

[pbc]

Cool, I used to live in Concord and now live just 10 minutes away ...

[NHTFRED]

The Monster House's footsteps just made my house creep a little towards my property line. Maybe a kids movie, but it has a grown up LFE track!

[craigsub]

These subwoofers are just plain outstanding. I have spent most of the day switching between the PB12-Plus/2 and the Fathom 112.

Tonight, It was "Dare Devil" .... a decent movie with a lot if different bass scenes. The Plus/2 handles the rumbling stuff pretty well, but the Fathom is so far superior in transient response it is not even close. When The boxer Dad is in the ring early in the movie, each body shot is FELT with the Fathom. The Plus/2 is just a thud. Same with the scenes with Bullseye fighting DareDevil.

The Pods scene on WOTW, while pretty close in the charts, is still more visceral with the Fathom. And the first laser shots are something to experience: There is no way a single 12 inch driver can hit this hard.

This sub is not quite enough to totally energize our room, but it does a great job overall, and with a clarity that lower priced subs just cannot hit.

Yes, even the Fathom 112 is expensive, but I would pay the difference between it and the Plus/2 with no reservations.

This is an excellent product.

[poormanq45]

But it's $3k!

Hehe, Good thing I work for a JL authorized dealer though.

*crawls back into the DIY section to contemplate how to fit a pair of 15s in the same space at the Gotham.* LOL

[Spezzy]

The drivers look like 13W7s.. They are different though right? They look slightly different atleast.


Looking at the thread makes me wonder.. Should I wait for a F113 or get the PB12+/2? My room is extremely small..8-9 feet wide and a 8 foot ceiling, 15 feet long maybe. I really want 2 F113s though.. :D Couldn't you get 2 Plus/2s for the price of one F113?

[Willd]

The drivers look like 13W7s.. They are different though right? They look slightly different atleast.

Yeah, there is even a neat little video on JL Audio's website explaining the difference between the regular 13W7s and the drivers in these home audio subs.

[NHTFRED]

The drivers look like 13W7s.. They are different though right? They look slightly different atleast.


Looking at the thread makes me wonder.. Should I wait for a F113 or get the PB12+/2? My room is extremely small..8-9 feet wide and a 8 foot ceiling, 15 feet long maybe. I really want 2 F113s though.. :D Couldn't you get 2 Plus/2s for the price of one F113?


If you put two SVS subwoofers in that little room, you wouldnt have any space left for a couch, a tv, or the rest of you equipment.

One f113 and you will still be pushing the limits of your room, but it would be fun,

[Richard Mayer]

These subwoofers are just plain outstanding. I have spent most of the day switching between the PB12-Plus/2 and the Fathom 112.

Tonight, It was "Dare Devil" .... a decent movie with a lot if different bass scenes. The Plus/2 handles the rumbling stuff pretty well, but the Fathom is so far superior in transient response it is not even close. When The boxer Dad is in the ring early in the movie, each body shot is FELT with the Fathom. The Plus/2 is just a thud. Same with the scenes with Bullseye fighting DareDevil.

The Pods scene on WOTW, while pretty close in the charts, is still more visceral with the Fathom. And the first laser shots are something to experience: There is no way a single 12 inch driver can hit this hard.

This sub is not quite enough to totally energize our room, but it does a great job overall, and with a clarity that lower priced subs just cannot hit.

Yes, even the Fathom 112 is expensive, but I would pay the difference between it and the Plus/2 with no reservations.

This is an excellent product.
Wow! This sounds almost too good to be true. :eek: How does the f112/f113 compare to other quality sealed subs like the Velodyne DD18 and ACI Maestro XL?

[craigsub]

The drivers look like 13W7s.. They are different though right? They look slightly different atleast.


Looking at the thread makes me wonder.. Should I wait for a F113 or get the PB12+/2? My room is extremely small..8-9 feet wide and a 8 foot ceiling, 15 feet long maybe. I really want 2 F113s though.. :D Couldn't you get 2 Plus/2s for the price of one F113?

Yes, it is all about tradeoffs ... The Fathom 113 will sound better, and be more visceral, in your room, than dual Plus/2's... because both will deliver all the SPL you need, but the Fathom will do it deeper, and with a much more realistic presense.

There are 2 schools of thought on this.

One "school of thought" says measurements are all one needs to determine performance.

The other says that careful listening tests are required.

I know from my blind tests so far that there is a VERY large difference between the 112/113 and the Plus/2.

The JL offerings are better sounding in every way, to my ears.

However, It would take 2 of the 113's to give me everything I need (in a 4500^3 foot room) for unrestricted bass response from JL Audio ... Figure a $5000 street price.

From SVS, It would take dual Plus/2's ... in Piano Black we are looking at appx. $2700 delivered, plus something for EQ purposes ... Call it $3000-$3300.

I would gladly pay the $2000 difference.

However, It is also easy to see this is a premium product, and not everyone will agree that it is worth the extra $$$$ for exemplary SQ, easy to manage size, and even easier to manage room interaction.

Using a car analogy, If the Plus/2 is a Mustang GT, the Fathoms are a Porsche 911. On paper, they are not that far apart in performance. For the $60,000 extra in price, the 911 is marginally faster than a GT.

You have to drive the 2 cars ... suddenly the superior feel of the 911 wins out.

[msmith_JL]

The W7 is a very robust, well proven, ultra-high excursion platform that has exceptional mechanical advantages so it was only natural to use it as the basis for the HT designs. The drivers used in the Fathoms are variants of the W7 that have been optimized to perform in less box volume than the car versions. The primary differences are a bigger, more powerful magnet structure and a different voice coil.

The benefit of designing a closed system, like a powered sub, is that all the variables are controlled, which allows driver and amplifier designs to be precisely matched to each other. Since we develop and manufacture our own drivers, it is no big deal to tweak a design to a specific product... even the Gotham's 13.5-inch drivers are different than the 13.5 used in the f113. This flexibility really frees up the design team to adjust things in order to meet size and performance targets. In other words, rather than starting with an off-the-shelf woofer design and then working to optimize the enclosure and electronics to that driver, we start with the desired physical package (balancing all the compromises inherently tied to size and box type) and tweak the driver and electronics to get the most performance we can out of that package. In the case of the Fathoms, the biggest challenge was to create enough amplifier power to take advantage of the woofer's excursion envelope. Again, we have the advantage of doing our own amplifier engineering and we already had some excellent Class D technology to use as a springboard, but it still wasn't easy. Beyond that, you also have pretty extensive processing that has to be dialed in to nail the goal.

The DIY crowd might chant that they can duplicate our subwoofer using off-the-shelf woofers and amplifiers, but I can tell you that this would neither be simple or inexpensive to do.

At some point in the future, we may offer a big ported sub and we certainly understand the advantages (as well as drawbacks) that such a design can provide, but the reality is that most people don't want a large subwoofer in their home. This is why we focused on the relatively compact sealed approach for our first foray into HT. We have built some rather gargantuan designs for fun and really upset our neighbors with them, but the reality is the market really wants more compact designs, so that's what we focused on.

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.

[NHTFRED]

Manville, have you ever had a chance to listen to the big Wilson subwoofer, theXS? That is taking bass the extreme!

[new27]

Craig, I like the way you write, you take alot of things into consideration during your
comparisons.

How does the f113 compare overall to the Maestro and Velo in your short subjective test?

I'm guessing here, but I'd imagigine the JL drivers are very durable and would allow one
to experiment with very low and loud stuff without fear of damage.

[mziegler]

We have built some rather gargantuan designs for fun and really upset our neighbors with them, but the reality is the market really wants more compact designs, so that's what we focused on.


Unless the wife agrees to use the sub as an end table. My wife rocks!

[craigsub]

Craig, I like the way you write, you take alot of things into consideration during your
comparisons.

How does the f113 compare overall to the Maestro and Velo in your short subjective test?

I'm guessing here, but I'd imagigine the JL drivers are very durable and would allow one
to experiment with very low and loud stuff without fear of damage.

Thank you for the compliment - The early impressions of the 113 were similar to the Velodyne, but somewhat more dynamic and powerful. The 113 moves the room more, while retaining the Velo's excellent sound quality.

Later today, the smaller 112 will be placed in a fairly high end, 2 channel system with McIntosh amp and a modded Denon Universal player driving a pair of ACI Sapphires, and the 113's will be placed in the identical location that the Maestro pair were last month.

I am pretty anxious to hear what TWO 113's do in this room ... :)

[Pradeep]

How does the sound compare to an IB setup?

The news that it bests the "best in class" DD-18 is good news.

[msmith_JL]

Manville, have you ever had a chance to listen to the big Wilson subwoofer, theXS? That is taking bass the extreme!

No, I haven't listened to the XS... but I would imagine it's quite a beast based on its size. It's not really rocket science to make a really good, very large subwoofer (especially when the budget is not constrained very much).

[NHTFRED]

No, I haven't listened to the XS... but I would imagine it's quite a beast based on its size. It's not really rocket science to make a really good, very large subwoofer (especially when the budget is not constrained very much).

Have you built subs like that for your own enjoyment? Does the R and D team have the blessings to go crazy with their designs, actually build and tweak them to perfection?

And if you have, do they you usually lose them to the JL executives homes!

[DreamCatcher]

Any news on when the Gotham will be available? :eek:

dc

[Spezzy]

If you put two SVS subwoofers in that little room, you wouldnt have any space left for a couch, a tv, or the rest of you equipment.

One f113 and you will still be pushing the limits of your room, but it would be fun,

No couch in this room. Just nice office seats. :)

[pbc]

Interesting ... everything I've read seemed to imply that a sealed sub the size of the Fathom (either 112 or 113) shouldn't be able to equal the SPL's of the SVS behemoth /2 (or any ported sub that size) below say 20 - 25hz excluding the effect of excessive THD. The Fathom I believe is even smaller than the DD18, less than 1/2 the volume of the SVS/2 and has a single 13" woofer. Yet it would appear from the intial reviews that this little monster can match or exceed them.

I'm not a sub expert by any means, what am I missing here??

If only they were more affordable!

[Richard Mayer]

Thank you Craig for these great tests! :cool:

Any chance to see how well the A.R.O system works? I mean does one even need an external eq like the SMS-1 with the JL Audio subs?

[Pradeep]

It definitely looks like the Plus/2 goes down deeper. But the F113 seems to shine in the 25Hz+ range, where slam is more prevalent?

[poormanq45]

Interesting ... everything I've read seemed to imply that a sealed sub the size of the Fathom (either 112 or 113) shouldn't be able to equal the SPL's of the SVS behemoth /2 (or any ported sub that size) below say 20 - 25hz excluding the effect of excessive THD. The Fathom I believe is even smaller than the DD18, less than 1/2 the volume of the SVS/2 and has a single 13" woofer. Yet it would appear from the intial reviews that this little monster can match or exceed them.

I'm not a sub expert by any means, what am I missing here??

If only they were more affordable!

Above about 25~30hz a sealed and ported sub have almost exactly the same output capability.

Where the two really differ is below this point. Down to the frequency the port is tuned(+/- a few hz) the ported enclosure will have more output. Below this point IIRC the output rolls off at 18dB per octave(may be 24dB). This is due to the "unloading" of the port. Meaning the port no longer presents a load to the driver. This allows the driver to act as if it were not even in an enclosure. You have to be careful of these because excursion increases drastically(for every octave lower you quadruple the excursion), and combine this with the fact that the driver has no air resisting it's motion.

A sealed enclosure on the other hand always have an air "spring" behind it. As the frequency goes lower, and excursion increases this air springs resistance increases also. This limits the driver from reaching its excursion limits, AND creates only a 6dB(12dB) per octave roll off.

[nethomas]

I am pleased enough with ARO on the F113s that I am selling my SMS-1. AS for the cost, I think it's because they can do what they do that makes them so much more expensive. :)

[djarchow]

Down to the frequency the port is tuned(+/- a few hz) the ported enclosure will have more output. Below this point IIRC the output rolls off at 12dB per octave(may be 18dB).

A sealed enclosure on the other hand always have an air "spring" behind it. As the frequency goes lower, and excursion increases this air springs resistance increases also. This limits the driver from reaching its excursion limits, AND creates only a 6dB(3dB) per octave roll off.

This isn't correct. All things being equal and not counting the drivers inherent high pass nature, a sealed system will roll off at 12 db/octave and a vented system will roll off at 24 db per octave.

Regards,

Dennis

[msmith_JL]

Generally that is true, Dennis... although it's possible to create an 18dB/octave rolloff in some ported alignments... The reality, though, is that all of that stuff is based on passive woofer designs that receive no assistance from electronic equalization or filtering... in a powered sub you could certainly make a sealed box roll off at 60dB/octave if you wanted to... or a ported box roll of at 12dB... it's a closed system and it's processed so all that "Loudspeaker Cookbook" stuff is somewhat moot.

[Pete]

[QUOTE=poormanq45][But it's $3k!]

The f112 in Satin finish is $2600. I'm thinking two of these would pressurize my room quite nicely and are small enough to be inobtrusive.

[craigsub]

My 10th grader and I just finished watching Black Hawk Down with the Fathom 113's hooked up as a pair, stacked. Even in this configuration, they are still a very manageable package.

As for the performance ... It was a BLAST. Literally ... :D

From F'ing Irene to all the urban combat, the pair of 113's delivered gut massaging, tight, DEEP bass that was the best we have heard from this movie.

As mentioned on other discs, the helicopter "thwacks" were palpable, and you GOTTA hear what these do with the RPG's in the movie.

In case no one noticed, we are having FUN with the Fathoms.

[nethomas]

I watched OPEN RANGE again today for the upteenth time. The opening scene where it rains with the thunder, and the gunfight at the end are incredable with the F113s. Scared the hell out of my dog when Costner shot the bad guy in the forehead. Must have hit about 110 db!!

[craigsub]

I watched OPEN RANGE again today for the upteenth time. The opening scene where it rains with the thunder, and the gunfight at the end are incredable with the F113s. Scared the hell out of my dog when Costner shot the bad guy in the forehead. Must have hit about 110 db!!

This is almost spooky ... if you take your signature, and change the order of the letters, you get Gothams ... :eek:

Guess we know what YOU will be buying next year ... :D

[nethomas]

My wife is very understanding Craig, but with all the money I have spent the last month I will be a poor single man if I buy any speakers for several years. In the last 3 weeks I have bought two F113 Fathoms, a 5 speaker Salk system and a Sony KDS70 XBR2 TV. I AM BROKE!! But, happy as a lark with my system. :D

[slybasil]

I posted my thoughts on how the JL F113 sounded about a month ago. Glad to see that a lot of others have the same opionion. I did end up buying one and contemplating getting a second. The sub does a great job now but I am curious to what the second would do. My room is 14w x 8h x32d. JL shows a recomendation of placing the 2nd sub opposite corners diagonally. Any thoughts from others?

Craig. Nice job with what you are doing. Unfortunately I can only relate to the subjective reviews. I just cant seem to get what the graphs mean.
Why did you stack the 113's?

[craigsub]

I posted my thoughts on how the JL F113 sounded about a month ago. Glad to see that a lot of others have the same opionion. I did end up buying one and contemplating getting a second. The sub does a great job now but I am curious to what the second would do. My room is 14w x 8h x32d. JL shows a recomendation of placing the 2nd sub opposite corners diagonally. Any thoughts from others?

Craig. Nice job with what you are doing. Unfortunately I can only relate to the subjective reviews. I just cant seem to get what the graphs mean.
Why did you stack the 113's?

Slybasil - In this room, the back left corner just happens to deliver smooth bass to all the listening positions. I have tried opposite corners, mid walls, etc ... and always end up with this configuration.

Of course, that is also the benefit of dual subs - by stacking them, I get a full 6 dB additional output ... separate them, and you only get 3 dB ... but, in some rooms, the smoothing effect of room peaks and nulls is more than a worthy tradeoff, and dual subs allows one to experiment. For your room, if you grab a 2nd fathom, try BOTH ideas ... stacking AND separate, and see what works for your room and tastes.

And you were right, these are GREAT subs. :)

[nethomas]

I placed mine beside each of the main speakers. Opposite sides of the room won't work for me. I hadn't thought of stacking them.

[Eclipse911t]

nethomas,
I would reccomend checking out rel's white paper on sub placement and crossover/phase setting. After that just stack them in that position. It may not be better, but on paper it should be for some listeners. If you're lucky enough to have a room with Craig's characteristics, then it will be better for all stacked.

Patrick
Merkle Audio Video, Inc
Fort Wayne, IN

PS: Craig thanks so much for your dedication/enthusiasm. I'm grateful for your opinions.

[craigsub]

nethomas,
I would reccomend checking out rel's white paper on sub placement and crossover/phase setting. After that just stack them in that position. It may not be better, but on paper it should be for some listeners. If you're lucky enough to have a room with Craig's characteristics, then it will be better for all stacked.

Patrick
Merkle Audio Video, Inc
Fort Wayne, IN

PS: Craig thanks so much for your dedication/enthusiasm. I'm grateful for your opinions.

Patrick, our other rooms work quite differently .... in the basement theater, shown here, the subwoofer position that works best is away from the walls, near the speakers ... though we normally don't run 3 pairs of speakers at a time, the location of the subs is optimal for this room.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/speakers005.jpg

[nethomas]

Thanks Patrick, I may try that. Although, I'm not sure the wife will be crazy about how they may look.

[Pete]

Craigsub,

Have you considered spray painting the ceiling tiles...either black or dark gray?

[craigsub]

Craigsub,

Have you considered spray painting the ceiling tiles...either black or dark gray?

My wife would kill me. Slowly. This room is primarily used for 2 channel listening, with the occasional movie. Let's just say I get away with enough around here ... :D

[TrzVpr]

Patrick, our other rooms work quite differently .... in the basement theater, shown here, the subwoofer position that works best is away from the walls, near the speakers ... though we normally don't run 3 pairs of speakers at a time, the location of the subs is optimal for this room.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/speakers005.jpg


I think I see Signatures S8's but cant make out the rest.. What do you have there and what are your impressions of them.. I am looking to setup up my HT for 50% Movies and 50% Music..

[Randybes]

I think I see Signatures S8's but cant make out the rest.. What do you have there and what are your impressions of them.. I am looking to setup up my HT for 50% Movies and 50% Music..energy Veritas as well.

[craigsub]

Sorry guys ... I should have posted the speaker's lineage...

Paradigm Studio 100 V.3's, Energy Veritas 2.4i's, and Onix Ref 3's. The subwoofers are dual stacked UFW-10's from AV123.

[Spezzy]

It definitely looks like the Plus/2 goes down deeper. But the F113 seems to shine in the 25Hz+ range, where slam is more prevalent?

Wouldnt having 2 or 3 fix that? One Plus/2 at 20hz tune, one at 25hz tune, and one at 16hz tune? OR Just 2, 1 at 20hz tune and 25hz? lol.

[craigsub]

Originally Posted by Pradeep
It definitely looks like the Plus/2 goes down deeper. But the F113 seems to shine in the 25Hz+ range, where slam is more prevalent?

Wouldnt having 2 or 3 fix that? One Plus/2 at 20hz tune, one at 25hz tune, and one at 16hz tune? OR Just 2, 1 at 20hz tune and 25hz? lol.

Guys ... if you look at the graphs below, look at the bass output from 12 to 20 Hz in the Fathom 113 vs. the Plus/2 ...



Here is the Plus/2 on WOTW.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/svswotwnewrta.jpg

And the Fathom 113

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/113WOTWlght.jpg

[Spezzy]

I thought I was reading the chart right, but I wasn't sure lol. OK then.. I'm gonna buy 2 F113s.. eventually :P

[Jose_L]

What's the msrp of the F113 ? Is it $3K or $5K for a single sub ?

Regards,
Jose

[nethomas]

Speezy, you won't be disappointed!!!

[craigsub]

What's the msrp of the F113 ? Is it $3K or $5K for a single sub ?

Regards,
Jose

A 113 is $3200 less whatever you can negotiate from the dealer. Most dealers will allow something off the list price

[Jose_L]

craigsub,

How does the ARO compare to the SMS-1 ?

Regards,
Jose

[craigsub]

craigsub,

How does the ARO compare to the SMS-1 ?

Regards,
Jose

It really doesn't ... The SMS-1, used as an auto-eq, has 8 bands it corrects, vs. 1 for ARO. The SMS-1 is a product which requires a lot more technical knowledge to run than does the ARO.

ARO does a good job with our room, and two others have mentioned it worked for them, too. For most, the 113/112 with ARO will get the job done, and is SO easy to do ...

For "tweakers", the SMS-1 is a worthy step up, especially in larger rooms.

[msmith_JL]

While the ARO is only a single band EQ, it is a rather unique one. It is fully parametric in nature and capable of creating asymmetri