I'm looking for a used sub and I see two of them on my radar screen. On paper the older PB12-plus seems to have more RMS but I'm wondering the newer PB-12NSD DSP has better overall sound quality. My HT room is 11X20X7 so it is not gigantic. Please let me know which one I should go for. They are similarly priced.

I would suggest contacting SVS. Jack is very honest in terms of their subs performance.

I would think the newer NSD would have better sound quality but the older plus more HT impact and slam.

Well I'm no SVS expert at all so take this with a grain of salt... You say the PB12-Plus is older, but is it the model with the 800W Sledge amp? The Plus model also has a deeper extension. The NSD may be alright for your needs, but given they're at the same price, why not go for the Plus?

I think he is referring to the older down firing pb12-plus model.

yes I was referring to an older PB-12 plus made around 2005~2006.

All-

I have the option of replacing my Paradigm PW-2500 sub with a down firing SVS PB12 Plus. The SVS is a 2006 model and I am getting it for $375.

Questions:

Is it better to keep what I have or would I see improvements in going to the SVS?

Is $375 a good price for the SVS?

I will be putting the sub in my basement theater which is 23 x 21 x 7 (ceiling). The sub will be hooked up to a Harman Kardon AVR 7550HD connected to a Panny PT-AX 100 projector.

:rolleyes:Thank you,
MoCy

Few new pics (Went to duals) :D

Wohaa.

You may want to try using asymetric placement though. Not sure about that but I think it may help evening out the bass as each sub would excite different room modes.

I have a 3rd sub behind the lp

I agree though that they aren’t in the best possible spots. Kind of balancing act of best spot vs look vs space available. ;)

How are you likeing the new sub? I gotta find a good spot for the empire, its hard not having two subs. Just sold the duel rw-12ds last night, now i need to save up for another empire, but its toooo much for me right now.

Just got my PB12 NSD a hour ago. Here it is next to my Sunfire True Signature sub. Setup was easy with my Pioneer Elite SC35 AVR. Seems to shake the room better than the Sunfire did.
http://i43.tinypic.com/2znr7u9.jpg

Anyone have the actual dimensions of the new Peerless XXLS12 based SB12?

I believe the previous one was also listed as a 14" cube, but was slightly smaller.

I ask because a friend is looking for a high mounted subwoofer for a Geddes-style multisub array. However, it must fit in one of the cubbies of an Ikea Expedit bookcase, which I believe are 13.5" H x 13.5" W x 14.5" D.

If the SB12 fits, I'll recommend it. One can't build a sub with an XXLS12, a decent amp, and a reasonably well-finished cabinet for that little money.

PS: Kudos to SVS for a killer product in the new PB12, and kudos to Josh Ricci for yet another standout review. If anyone wants to duplicate (or, more likely, slightly improve upon) the performance Keith Yates got from the Genelec HTS6 (4x XLS12, 4x 250W amps, best sub tested in his "Way Down Deep" article series) in a package that looks no worse than the big Gennie, just pick up four SVS PB12's.

Just got my PB12 NSD a hour ago. Here it is next to my Sunfire True Signature sub. Setup was easy with my Pioneer Elite SC35 AVR. Seems to shake the room better than the Sunfire did.
http://i43.tinypic.com/2znr7u9.jpg

I surely HOPE it shakes the room better....what a difference in SIZE!!:rolleyes:

My amp replacement arrived and it took all of 10 minutes to take the original amp out and put the new one in. Then I re-calibrated the system using Pioneer's MCACC and it sounds great! And what's even more impressive is there is no Red Limiter Light reflecting off my back wall!!:):cool:

Here is the PB12 NSD in it's corner.
http://i42.tinypic.com/pup8k.jpg

Anyone have the actual dimensions of the new Peerless XXLS12 based SB12?

I believe the previous one was also listed as a 14" cube, but was slightly smaller.

I ask because a friend is looking for a high mounted subwoofer for a Geddes-style multisub array. However, it must fit in one of the cubbies of an Ikea Expedit bookcase, which I believe are 13.5" H x 13.5" W x 14.5" D.



Sadly the SB12 is a perfect cube slightly
over 14" on a side. Just measured mine (piano black finish if it makes any difference).

Here is the PB12 NSD in it's corner.
http://i42.tinypic.com/pup8k.jpg

Very nice Chasls2!
I it fits perfectly, I bet it does shake your room quite well.
I just watched the pod racer scene in Starwars episode 1, wow what a test for the SVS, it was literally vibrating the couch:D

Looks good. The metal grille looks great on these.

Yes the grilles do look great.
Do anyone else here have a problem with the rubber spacers on the grilles coming unglued. This happens on both my SB 13+ subs.

Few new pics (Went to duals) :D

Looks good! Are those Ultras or the PB12s?

Hey guys, I have a chance to get the SVS pb12-nsd or an HSU VTF-2 MK3. Setup is geared towards 70% music 30% HT.

Room is 4100 cubic feet. 19x18x12.

How does the SVS do with music? Will it give me in my chest deepness?

Yes the grilles do look great.
Do anyone else here have a problem with the rubber spacers on the grilles coming unglued. This happens on both my SB 13+ subs.

My pb12plus grille attaches with magnets. The sb12 doesn't have magnets but I haven't noticed any issues. I also don't take the grille off much at all.

Not sure why they would not use the magnets on the sb13 as it is a higher end model.

Hey guys, I have a chance to get the SVS pb12-nsd or an HSU VTF-2 MK3. Setup is geared towards 70% music 30% HT.

Room is 4100 cubic feet. 19x18x12.

How does the SVS do with music? Will it give me in my chest deepness?

Which pb-12nsd? The new one with the Sledge amp?

I had the prior pb-12nsd with the bash amp and it was pretty good with music. I myself prefer a sealed sub for music though and think the SB-12nsd I have now is better with music.

Looks good! Are those Ultras or the PB12s?

Pb12. I don’t think the ultras would fit but I bet they would sound amazing.

My pb12plus grille attaches with magnets. The sb12 doesn't have magnets but I haven't noticed any issues. I also don't take the grille off much at all.

Not sure why they would not use the magnets on the sb13 as it is a higher end model.

The SB13 does use magnets.

The SB13 does use magnets.

The magnets are located on the grille behind the straight folded piece that attach to the front of the sub.
There is a small rudder disk glued to the outside of this straight edge piece. It is placed there to keep the metal grille from rubbing the finish on the sub.
On both my subs the weight of the grille causes the rubber disks to move where they are glued. Over time the grilles move down until they are resting on the floor. When they touch the floor they make a very noticeable noise vibrating against the floor boards.:eek:
Since I put the subs on subdude risers they now literally fall off the subs.:mad:

Sadly the SB12 is a perfect cube slightly
over 14" on a side. Just measured mine (piano black finish if it makes any difference).

Darn. Guess it's to the cabinet-maker then.

Thanks for the reply!

Pb12. I don’t think the ultras would fit but I bet they would sound amazing.

Yes, they probably would! I'm rockin' dual PB12 Pluses as well, and they are no slouches either.

Darn. Guess it's to the cabinet-maker then.

Thanks for the reply!

The Emotiva X-ref 10 will fit.

Is this magnet grill thing an issue with all SB13 plus subs or just a defective one?

It's been 2.5 months now that I got my first, let's say, real sub, an SB12-NSD. Like it a lot so far; sometimes I tell myself I should have gone with a PC or PB instead, but considering the price was right (in Canada via Sonicboomaudio, the SB12 is 100$ less than the PB12 or PC12), my listening room is small, and I don't listen at very high volumes due to the presence of a toddler, I think the choice was right. Also, the girlfriend likes it -- not sure a PC or PB would have produced the same effect there.

Now I'm trying to optimize my listening experience. Of course I know that subwoofer location is of uttermost importance, so I spent some time getting it right. But it's easier said than done. It seems that every inch changes the way bass sounds around the room. I think the fact that the room is small and elongated, with an open doorway close to a corner, doesn't help things.

I already decided not to place the sub in a corner since the bass volume itself is sufficient. I'd prefer something balanced as I'm playing more music than ever before. I tentatively set the sub about 1ft from the front wall (which is the longest wall), maybe 1/3 of the way between the two side walls. The sub is sitting on foam mats (not a Subdude as it's expensive/hard to find up here); I didn't think it made much of a difference. So I think location is almost as good as it gets.

I didn't use the sub-crawling technique since I have maybe 2-3 good spots for the sub (and anyway, are you supposed to put the sub on the couch for that? Shouldn't it be at ear level?). The sub sounds reasonably good I think in the listening position. The thing is, even moving my head a bit changes how bass sound. If I recline a bit on the couch (head closer to back wall), I get a lot of deep bass, which is expected I think. If I hunch forward (happens a lot while playing videogames), bass is greatly reduced.

There's also lots of bass where I wish there weren't -- e.g. in the doorway and in the kitchen on the other side of the front wall. I know there is no easy fix for all of that, but am I forgetting something that might help? Would playing with the phase dial or sub distance on my receiver help? I guess I should try. Some speak of sub risers. That would be fugly in my living room... but does it help a lot?

I guess having a second SB12-NSD would help a lot to even out bass peaks and lulls. But considering two SB12s would cost the same as a, say, PB-Plus, or almost a PC-Ultra. I wonder if doubling a lowly SB12 is the best upgrade path vs selling the SB12 and getting a bigger one (SVS's upgrade policy doesn't apply with Sonicboomaudio in Canada). Maybe it is since my biggest problem is bass evenness.

Another quick question. SVS's Merlin tool advise a crossover frequency of 60Hz with my sub. My receiver (Pio 1020) can either do 50 or 80Hz. Should I set it, say, to 80Hz or higher *and* adjust the crossover setting on the sub to 60 Hz? I guess the crossover would then be sharper since both filter slopes would combine. Not sure if that would be a good thing or not.

Thanks for any thoughts and sorry for that rather long rambling.

I used some gorilla glue to attach the rubber disks because the drop of glue svs uses isn't strong enough. The gorilla glue keeps the disks from slipping/sliding down and holds the grill in place.

Another quick question. SVS's Merlin tool advise a crossover frequency of 60Hz with my sub. My receiver (Pio 1020) can either do 50 or 80Hz. Should I set it, say, to 80Hz or higher *and* adjust the crossover setting on the sub to 60 Hz? I guess the crossover would then be sharper since both filter slopes would combine. Not sure if that would be a good thing or not.

Thanks for any thoughts and sorry for that rather long rambling.

I can't answer your question about sub placement (your room set up is dramatically different from mine), but I'll take a stab at answering your question about the crossover.

I too have a Pioneer receiver and after doing the MCACC it automatically set my crossover to 100 Hz. My 3 Front Speakers are rated down to 80 Hz. but I was told, by Jack at SVS, that you should definitely have the crossover *higher* than what your main speakers at rated at, preferably 20-30 Hz higher. So, if I were you, I would set your Pioneer to 80 Hz rather than 50 Hz.

Also, you speak of then setting your crossover on your sub. I was told that if you are using the crossover in your AVR, you should *disable* your sub's crossover. You do this by setting it all the way close-wise (past the highest setting, which in my case is 150 Hz...on the PC12).

NEUTRO, what you need to get are acoustic panels. These can absorb certain freqencies and nullify some of the hotspots where you are hearing too much bass. This is not easy and needs to researched. It can be done by yourself but it will take some work. Google "acoustic panels" and start reading. Good luck.

I too have a Pioneer receiver and after doing the MCACC it automatically set my crossover to 100 Hz. My 3 Front Speakers are rated down to 80 Hz. but I was told, by Jack at SVS, that you should definitely have the crossover *higher* than what your main speakers at rated at, preferably 20-30 Hz higher. So, if I were you, I would set your Pioneer to 80 Hz rather than 50 Hz.


My fronts are supposed to go down to 31 Hz, so that's pretty low -- that's why Merlin suggests 60 Hz. But considering I'm very happy to let low-freqs being handled by the SB12 (paid good money for it so why not use it), yeah, I'm leaving at 80 Hz for now. Also, the center and surrounds are not towers; since the Pio 1020 does not have separate crossovers for all channels, I guess 80 Hz is a better compromise than going to 50 Hz.


Also, you speak of then setting your crossover on your sub. I was told that if you are using the crossover in your AVR, you should *disable* your sub's crossover. You do this by setting it all the way close-wise (past the highest setting, which in my case is 150 Hz...on the PC12).

That's what I'm doing right now but I thought maybe I could fine-tune by also using the sub's crossover knob. I think it's not advisable since crossover filters have a gentle (-6 dB/octave) slope so that the transition between speakers and sub is smooth. If you cummulate two such crossovers, I guess it would go at -12 dB/octave after the lowest setting. Maybe there would be phase problems too, not sure about that.

NEUTRO, what you need to get are acoustic panels. These can absorb certain freqencies and nullify some of the hotspots where you are hearing too much bass. This is not easy and needs to researched. It can be done by yourself but it will take some work. Google "acoustic panels" and start reading. Good luck.

I was afraid this would come up :P It's hard getting acoustic panels approved when you're not in your man-cave. But it makes sense: I'm actually seated back to a bay-window, and I have a few bare walls, so reflections probably abound. At least we've got lots of furniture covering a large part of the hardwood floor.

That's what I'm doing right now but I thought maybe I could fine-tune by also using the sub's crossover knob. I think it's not advisable since crossover filters have a gentle (-6 dB/octave) slope so that the transition between speakers and sub is smooth. If you cummulate two such crossovers, I guess it would go at -12 dB/octave after the lowest setting. Maybe there would be phase problems too, not sure about that.

I remember being told, when I purchased my first powered subwoofer (a Velodyne Servo sub), not to combine both crossovers or it could result in low gain and increased noise.

I used some gorilla glue to attach the rubber disks because the drop of glue svs uses isn't strong enough. The gorilla glue keeps the disks from slipping/sliding down and holds the grill in place.

Thanks.
I did this two days ago. So far the grilles are staying in place.
The hardest part was cleaning off the old glue.

I heard that the pb-13 ultra cabinet is going to be slightly modified, have you guys heard anything about the new cabinet, is it gonna make a big differences? I was about to buy 2 but I can wait until the improved cabinet come out.

I could be wrong but Snowmanick posted about a change to the SB13 however I've not come across anything about a change to any of the ported cabinets.
Tim

I heard that the pb-13 ultra cabinet is going to be slightly modified, have you guys heard anything about the new cabinet, is it gonna make a big differences? I was about to buy 2 but I can wait until the improved cabinet come out.

I'll bet the change will be the same look as the PB12-Plus. The SB13 is two-tone with a matte top and veneered sides. I'll bet it'll look just like the PB12 cabinet.

I'll bet the change will be the same look as the PB12-Plus. The SB13 is two-tone with a matte top and veneered sides. I'll bet it'll look just like the PB12 cabinet.

+1 just like the older PB12-plus.

Originally only the SB16Ultra was supposed to look like that.

Can anyone tell me what the newest version of the PB12-NSD sub box is made of?

Can anyone tell me what the newest version of the PB12-NSD sub box is made of?

Vinyl-wrapped medium density fiberboard. (http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/speakers/subwoofers/pb12-nsd/pb12-nsd-introduction)

Can anyone tell me what the newest version of the PB12-NSD sub box is made of?

I believe it's 1" thick MDF

Vinyl-wrapped medium density fiberboard. (http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/speakers/subwoofers/pb12-nsd/pb12-nsd-introduction)

I believe it's 1" thick MDF


Cheers!

How would users rate SVS subs strictly on build quality?

I'm very close to pulling the trigger but will be blind buying and never owned SVS before.

Cheers!

How would users rate SVS subs strictly on build quality?

I'm very close to pulling the trigger but will be blind buying and never owned SVS before.

I had the PB12-NSD for a few weeks before getting the PB12-Plus. The NSD is very well built with a vinyl wrap. The PB12-Plus is a serious step up. I got the black oak full wood veneer and it's beautifully crafted. Audioholics has very recent reviews of all the SVS ported subs and they go into very good detail regarding build quality.

I had the PB12-NSD for a few weeks before getting the PB12-Plus. The NSD is very well built with a vinyl wrap. The PB12-Plus is a serious step up. I got the black oak full wood veneer and it's beautifully crafted. Audioholics has very recent reviews of all the SVS ported subs and they go into very good detail regarding build quality.

Thanks

Cheers!

How would users rate SVS subs strictly on build quality?

I'm very close to pulling the trigger but will be blind buying and never owned SVS before.

I have a SVS PB12-Plus that is circa 2009. It has had one previous owner out in Arizona. But the sub literally is built like a tank. At 120lbs+ it definitely ranks up there for how solid it is.

How would users rate SVS subs strictly on build quality?

I'm very close to pulling the trigger but will be blind buying and never owned SVS before.

I have the SB12 with piano-black finish and the build quality and finish is way above what I was expecting. I too bought blind and I don't regret it. Having a toddler at home, the metal grill is by itself reason enough to buy SVS. But I thought it would be fugly; turns out, not at all. Looks high-end, it's functional, it's solid.

I've had 5 different SVS subs over the last 5 yeas. 2 PB13 Ultra's, which are still here, 2 older gen PB12-Plus's, and an SB12-Plus, in my bedroom system. All five were built like a proverbial brick.

I've had 5 different SVS subs over the last 5 yeas. 2 PB13 Ultra's, which are still here, 2 older gen PB12-Plus's, and an SB12-Plus, in my bedroom system. All five were built like a proverbial brick.

I've had two SVS box subs (still using them) and they are built tough. :D

Thanks to everyone for their replies.

FWIW, the cylinder subs are also built extremely well. When I had to replace the amp I had to put it on its side and roll it up against a couch for support and it was obvious that the PC12 is Rock Solid!

If anyone wants to give their SVS a workout, I suggest this track. Hits deep right around the 1 minute mark.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AL0iC5h6fY8

Cheers!

How would users rate SVS subs strictly on build quality?

I'm very close to pulling the trigger but will be blind buying and never owned SVS before.

Svs don’t “beep” around. :D

Had my new SVS PB12 NSD for about a week now and i am very happy with it. I don't hear a hum like i would off and on with my Sunfire True Signature sub.

If anyone wants to give their SVS a workout, I suggest this track. Hits deep right around the 1 minute mark.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AL0iC5h6fY8

I'll certainly listen to this tonight. I'm in the process of listening to my whole music collection again. It's surprising how unsuspected pieces end up with superb bass, or how songs I know well change in character once listened with my SVS.

I'd have dozens of songs to recommend ... but try this one :)

(Soul Purge by Noisia & Foreign Beggars)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKrDffXjEGk

Daft Punk also have great with bass lines. Even not-so-well known songs are rendered amazingly with a good sub. E.g. Emotion:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUIxQadmoZk

On a cheap set of computer speakers, the song is repetitive and dull. On my HT setup, OMG :)

Reminds me of the first time I heard Bass, I Love You. It was on my smart phone. It could simply not reproduce the bass line *at all* so I wondered what was up with that. When I played that on the HT... Tee hee.

I've had 5 different SVS subs over the last 5 yeas. 2 PB13 Ultra's, which are still here, 2 older gen PB12-Plus's, and an SB12-Plus, in my bedroom system. All five were built like a proverbial brick.

Hi. From the pb12 plus and sb12 plus; which one you prefer? I always wanted a sealed svs or rythmik subs, but knowing you have experience between sealed and ported svs then I would like your honest opinion. Thanks.

Hi. From the pb12 plus and sb12 plus; which one you prefer? I always wanted a sealed svs or rythmik subs, but knowing you have experience between sealed and ported svs then I would like your honest opinion. Thanks.

Interested as well with that comparison. I went with the SB12-NSD because of size and budget issues, and because it is reportedly great for music. I'm not sure what I'm missing though (a few Hz in extension, a few dB in output?). This certainly won't be my last SVS sub so I wonder if the next will be sealed or ported.

All I know is that sealed subs are 1st-order acoustic filters and thus have a gentle cut-off slope; ported subs are 2nd-order filters and gain in extension and output because of the Helmotz resonnance, at the cost of a sharper cut-off. They are supposed to be harder to control (i.e. to produce a flat response) but since SVS achieves that anyway in their ported designs, this is a moot point.

I guess there's lots of sealed vs ported subs debates out there, but is anybody able to provide a quick rundown of the main talking points?

Anyone interested, I have my SVS 20-39PCi listed on Ebay. Lightly used / EXCELLENT condition.

Greetings everyone.

I have a PC-12Plus. It's an older one with the BASH amp, not the one with the Sledge amp. I love the sub.

Over the weekend, while watching the movie "Cowboys and Aliens". In on of the beginning scenes, when the guy goes in the water and the alien comes out. There was a lot of bass that shook the whole house and made me jump out of my seat. But during the really deep rumbling bass, I also heard a couple pop/clang noise. I wasn't sure if it was coming out of the subwoofer or it was part of the scene.

The volume was not up very high when I was watching this movie. Volume was at about 40%. Bass gain on the receiver set at 0. Bass gain at the subwoofer set at about 50%.

My subwoofer still works, but I've been concerned ever since. Did I damage something? Is there a way to test if everything is still functioning correctly?

I'm pretty new to powered subwoofers and high end stereo equipment. My last system was a Bose, if that gives you any idea where I came from. :p:p

My current system consist of:

Yamaha DSP-A1 reciver
Klipsch RF-82 Fronts
Klipsch RC-3 Center
Klipsch RF-3 Rears
SVS PC-12Plus Subwoofer.

My subwoofer still works, but I've been concerned ever since. Did I damage something? Is there a way to test if everything is still functioning correctly?


Well obviously replaying the same scene many times (possibly at different volumes) will give you a hint. If the sound is exactly the same each time, it's probably in the scene.

Also turn the sub off, and disable the crossover (or set your fronts to large). If you still hear the sound, it's in the scene.

If the sound is not repeated exactly the same way each time, something else is likely in play. But, not necessarily a problem with the sub itself. E.g. while playing test tones at low volume, I hit the resonance frequency of my ventilation ducts. Made a lot of noise briefly. During a movie, you rarely hit this frequency with lots of power for a sufficient time to make the ducts vibrate, so it's not an issue. But if I watched a scene in which these conditions are met, there would be noise from the ducts. Maybe something in your living room or in your wall vibrate...

Also look at the limiter LED on the sub during the scene. Flickering is ok but if it stays red, you possibly got a problem.

Good luck...

Hi. From the pb12 plus and sb12 plus; which one you prefer? I always wanted a sealed svs or rythmik subs, but knowing you have experience between sealed and ported svs then I would like your honest opinion. Thanks.

They are both very good, but in different leagues from each other. I use the SB12-Plus in a bedroom 2 channel set up and it sounds very good, with plenty of authority. Of course, this is a much smaller room than my great room, and is music only. I think in my great room (~4,300 cubic feet, open to the rest of the house) it would struggle and my impressions would be very different. This is also with the recognition that I've had dual, larger, more powerful subs in this room for several years now and I am used to a certain level of performance/output.

The PB12-Plus's that I had were from a couple of generations ago (12.3 driver, PEQ BASH amps, downward firing configuration), and sounded fine, but were significantly outclassed by my PB13's (BASH amp version) for both movies and music. The new PB12-Plus's (12.5 driver, 800 watt Sledge amp w/ all the DSP goodies) are much closer to my Ultra's than the my old Plus's. Based off of that, along with the significant amount of headroom and extension that the PB12-Plus's enjoy over the SB12+ and SB12NSD, I'd vote for the PB12-Plus as long as you could afford it and had a room where you could set it up properly. The ported boxes are all big, much more so than pictures make them seem. I've been able to incorporate them into my great room with full WAF, but we were both shocked the first time we took delivery.

As for sealed vs. ported, I have never been a big proponent of one over the other. I've heard great examples of both, and have thought I may have heard a difference from time to time, but I think it more often comes down to setup/placement issues. So if you don't have the room to place a large ported box where it will sound best in your room, but you can fit a small sealed in its best location, then definitely go with the sealed. If, conversely, you have a lot of space you are trying to fill, rearrange your furniture. I've run my Ultra's in sealed mode a couple of times, but found I preferred the added output/headroom of the 15HZ tune over sealed. I can't say I heard a lot of differences in musicality/extension between the two, but the 15HZ tune sounds less stressed and, to my ears at east, almost deeper. But those are both probably me trying to ascertain a difference because I knew something was different (I never did these tests blind), so my brain was trying to insert differences in my perception.

If the sound is not repeated exactly the same way each time, something else is likely in play. But, not necessarily a problem with the sub itself. E.g. while playing test tones at low volume, I hit the resonance frequency of my ventilation ducts. Made a lot of noise briefly. During a movie, you rarely hit this frequency with lots of power for a sufficient time to make the ducts vibrate, so it's not an issue. But if I watched a scene in which these conditions are met, there would be noise from the ducts. Maybe something in your living room or in your wall vibrate...


Very good suggestions.

I tracked down a nasty rattle I was hearing in one movie to the light cover on my microwave/hood in my kitchen once. I thought something had gone wrong with the subs as I'd never heard the noise/rattle before. I've also had a scene (WOTW Pods emerge) where my wall mounted surrounds rattled as they bounced around on my wall. That one was more interesting.

Well obviously replaying the same scene many times (possibly at different volumes) will give you a hint. If the sound is exactly the same each time, it's probably in the scene.

Also turn the sub off, and disable the crossover (or set your fronts to large). If you still hear the sound, it's in the scene.

If the sound is not repeated exactly the same way each time, something else is likely in play. But, not necessarily a problem with the sub itself. E.g. while playing test tones at low volume, I hit the resonance frequency of my ventilation ducts. Made a lot of noise briefly. During a movie, you rarely hit this frequency with lots of power for a sufficient time to make the ducts vibrate, so it's not an issue. But if I watched a scene in which these conditions are met, there would be noise from the ducts. Maybe something in your living room or in your wall vibrate...

Also look at the limiter LED on the sub during the scene. Flickering is ok but if it stays red, you possibly got a problem.

Good luck...

Thank you for your input. Unfortunately it was a Redbox rental and I had to return it quickly. I may have to go rent it again and test out that scene this weekend.

Greetings everyone.

I have a PC-12Plus. It's an older one with the BASH amp, not the one with the Sledge amp. I love the sub.

Over the weekend, while watching the movie "Cowboys and Aliens". In on of the beginning scenes, when the guy goes in the water and the alien comes out. There was a lot of bass that shook the whole house and made me jump out of my seat. But during the really deep rumbling bass, I also heard a couple pop/clang noise. I wasn't sure if it was coming out of the subwoofer or it was part of the scene.

The volume was not up very high when I was watching this movie. Volume was at about 40%. Bass gain on the receiver set at 0. Bass gain at the subwoofer set at about 50%.

My subwoofer still works, but I've been concerned ever since. Did I damage something? Is there a way to test if everything is still functioning correctly?

I'm pretty new to powered subwoofers and high end stereo equipment. My last system was a Bose, if that gives you any idea where I came from. :p:p

My current system consist of:

Yamaha DSP-A1 reciver
Klipsch RF-82 Fronts
Klipsch RC-3 Center
Klipsch RF-3 Rears
SVS PC-12Plus Subwoofer.

AFAIK all SVS subs have very sophisticated limiters that prevent that sort of damage from happening if the sub is overdriven. On my PC12-NSDs the red light on the back of the sub flashes on and off if it is overdriven - I see it occasionally, but the sub isn't damaged because the limiter is protecting it.

Interested as well with that comparison. I went with the SB12-NSD because of size and budget issues, and because it is reportedly great for music. I'm not sure what I'm missing though (a few Hz in extension, a few dB in output?). This certainly won't be my last SVS sub so I wonder if the next will be sealed or ported.

All I know is that sealed subs are 1st-order acoustic filters and thus have a gentle cut-off slope; ported subs are 2nd-order filters and gain in extension and output because of the Helmotz resonnance, at the cost of a sharper cut-off. They are supposed to be harder to control (i.e. to produce a flat response) but since SVS achieves that anyway in their ported designs, this is a moot point.

I guess there's lots of sealed vs ported subs debates out there, but is anybody able to provide a quick rundown of the main talking points?

There are a couple of factual mistakes here. Sealed subs will naturally exhibit a 2nd order rolloff (12db/octave), not a 1st order rolloff. Ported subs will show a natural 4th order rolloff (24db/octave), not a 2nd order. This does not take into account any high-pass filters or other eq that might be applied. Most commercial sealed subs and many ported subs have some sort of internal eq to shape the curve and possibly high-pass filters applied in order to prevent sub damage or just to prevent bad noises.

There are a couple of factual mistakes here. Sealed subs will naturally exhibit a 2nd order rolloff (12db/octave), not a 1st order rolloff. Ported subs will show a natural 4th order rolloff (24db/octave), not a 2nd order. This does not take into account any high-pass filters or other eq that might be applied. Most commercial sealed subs and many ported subs have some sort of internal eq to shape the curve and possibly high-pass filters applied in order to prevent sub damage or just to prevent bad noises.

Thanks for the precision. I think I saw both infos (1st and 2nd order vs 2nd and 4th order). Not sure why; but the specs seem to agree with what you say.

I also saw 6th / 8th order designs in which basically a sealed sub is firing inside a proted cavity, or a ported sub fires inside a ported cavity. I think those produce can effectively produce bandbass speakers with sharp cut-offs.

AFAIK all SVS subs have very sophisticated limiters that prevent that sort of damage from happening if the sub is overdriven. On my PC12-NSDs the red light on the back of the sub flashes on and off if it is overdriven - I see it occasionally, but the sub isn't damaged because the limiter is protecting it.

Thank you for your input. I feel a little more reassured now. I know the newer SVS subs have limiters on them, not sure about the older ones with the Bash amps though.

Anyone interested, I have my SVS 20-39PCi listed on Ebay. Lightly used / EXCELLENT condition.


If you were closer I would pick it up from you

Thank you for your input. I feel a little more reassured now. I know the newer SVS subs have limiters on them, not sure about the older ones with the Bash amps though.

The older Bash amps have limiters on them too but are not as sophisticated as the newer Sledge amps. I believe the Sledge subs are MUCH harder to bottom out or distort.

Thank you for your input. I feel a little more reassured now. I know the newer SVS subs have limiters on them, not sure about the older ones with the Bash amps though.

The older Bash amps have limiters on them too but are not as sophisticated as the newer Sledge amps. I believe the Sledge subs are MUCH harder to bottom out or distort.

My SVS subs have the newer Sledge amps and they just seem totally impervious to bottoming out. All that happens is that the red light flashes - there is no audible effect at all. If you couldn't see the light flashing, you would never even know you were overdriving the sub. Of course, it's best to take notice of the light and try to arrange things so it doesn't flash at all - but it's incredibly reassuring to know that the sub is safe from our worst excesses.

My SVS subs have the newer Sledge amps and they just seem totally impervious to bottoming out. All that happens is that the red light flashes - there is no audible effect at all. If you couldn't see the light flashing, you would never even know you were overdriving the sub. Of course, it's best to take notice of the light and try to arrange things so it doesn't flash at all - but it's incredibly reassuring to know that the sub is safe from our worst excesses.

I experience the same thing with my little SB12nsds. I have yet to hear a bad noise from them during heavy program material. The Limiters used in the Slege amps really are a great design

I have a question that am sure I will get a ton of different opinions, but that's OK.

I have (am selling) a 20-39PCi sub w/ a Bash Amp. I just purchased a PC13Ultra with the Sledge Amp. In reading a lot of posts here on AVS, I am getting that most people here prefer the older Bash Amps, True?

ALso, someon econtacted me about my 20-39PCi for sale, specifically asking if I had the upgraded bash amp. I told him, when I bought the 20-39PCi, Bash is what came with it.

Does SVS currently offer the bash amp, but you have to specifically ask for it and it's considered an upgrade now? If so, how much more is it for my Ultra?

I have a question that am sure I will get a ton of different opinions, but that's OK.

I have (am selling) a 20-39PCi sub w/ a Bash Amp. I just purchased a PC13Ultra with the Sledge Amp. In reading a lot of posts here on AVS, I am getting that most people here prefer the older Bash Amps, True?

ALso, someon econtacted me about my 20-39PCi for sale, specifically asking if I had the upgraded bash amp. I told him, when I bought the 20-39PCi, Bash is what came with it.

Does SVS currently offer the bash amp, but you have to specifically ask for it and it's considered an upgrade now? If so, how much more is it for my Ultra?

Read this:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=18913428&postcount=5

The info in that link relates to ALL the Sledge amps.

Here is the best article to read though, written by none other than Mr. "S" himself (the first "S" in "SVS"):

http://www.hifibargain.com/pdtreviews/mod11_SVS_interview.pdf

I have a question that am sure I will get a ton of different opinions, but that's OK.

I have (am selling) a 20-39PCi sub w/ a Bash Amp. I just purchased a PC13Ultra with the Sledge Amp. In reading a lot of posts here on AVS, I am getting that most people here prefer the older Bash Amps, True?

ALso, someon econtacted me about my 20-39PCi for sale, specifically asking if I had the upgraded bash amp. I told him, when I bought the 20-39PCi, Bash is what came with it.

Does SVS currently offer the bash amp, but you have to specifically ask for it and it's considered an upgrade now? If so, how much more is it for my Ultra?

I had an PB13 Ultra with both the Bash and the Sledge and I much prefer the Sledge! I find it to be a much better amp over the Bash or I would have sent the Sledge amp back.

In reading a lot of posts here on AVS, I am getting that most people here prefer the older Bash Amps, True?

It would be surprising if it was. SVS say that the Sledge amp is a significant upgrade over the Bash amp - that's why they introduced it.


Does SVS currently offer the bash amp, but you have to specifically ask for it and it's considered an upgrade now? If so, how much more is it for my Ultra?

;) SVS will let you upgrade an existing sub with a bash amp to the new Sledge spec by selling you a Sledge amp - not the other way around.

SVS is one of the very few manufacturers whose word I trust 100%. If they say they moved to the Sledge amp because the sound is audibly better (which they do) I believe them.

I don't recall SVS ever saying that and just the opposite, when the Sledge amp came out they were saying that sound quality wise there wasn't much if any difference.

Don't forget, that those who did do a switch may have had something wrong with the Bash amp where a correctly working amp is the difference they're hearing.

I had to get a replacement Bash amp once and the replacement didn't sound right. SVS replace it without a hitch.

I don't recall SVS ever saying that and just the opposite, when the Sledge amp came out they were saying that sound quality wise there wasn't much if any difference.

Your recollection is wrong. The link is only about 3 posts above! Ron Stimpson, SVS's founder, says this:

"The Sledge DSP amplifier replaces the previous BASH digital amplifiers in all SVS subwoofers, an upgrade you can easily perform on earlier SVS subwoofers with BASH amplifiers... The BASH amplifiers are not good for subwoofers with a sub 4-ohm dip while the Sledge amplifiers have no problems with that. If there are readers who have the older SVS subwoofers, you will appreciate the improved sound quality of the Sledge amplifiers as well as better reliability."


Ed Mullen of SVS says this:

"We feel the STA-400D is a better amp, otherwise we wouldn't have made the switch to this new supplier."

(My emboldening of selected text).

Anyone know what is going on with the SB13-PLUS? It is only being shown as having cherry side panels finish. No black option. It did have an oak finish option a couple of weeks ago. It currently shows that it isn't shipping until after 2/22/2012. Is this unit being phased out?

Anyone know what is going on with the SB13-PLUS? It is only being shown as having cherry side panels finish. No black option. It did have an oak finish option a couple of weeks ago. It currently shows that it isn't shipping until after 2/22/2012. Is this unit being phased out?

Not being phased out. Per Ed, on the HTS forum, they are going to slightly tweak the cabinet design, but they are keeping the SB13+ in the line up.

Several of us have guessed that means they may be going full veneer like they did on the PB12-Plus, but that is only a guess.

Anyone know what is going on with the SB13-PLUS? It is only being shown as having cherry side panels finish. No black option. It did have an oak finish option a couple of weeks ago. It currently shows that it isn't shipping until after 2/22/2012. Is this unit being phased out?

There is a black oak available in B-stock if you can't wait

There is a black oak available in B-stock if you can't wait

Actually, they didn't show any stock their outlet page either.

Any guess when this new tweaked version might become available? Like are we thinking by late spring? Fall?

I have a couple of old Klipsch subwoofers that are no longer functional. I'm kind of excited to try one of the SB13Us out as a replacement.

Which old Klipsch subs do you own?

Which old Klipsch subs do you own?

I have a SW12-II and a KSW 300. The SW12-II has a bad connection internally that I can't seem to find. The KSW 300 has a 60hz hum that drives me nuts. It hums with no input connected and with or without ground.

The SW12-II has been my favorite of the two. Neither have been what I would call barn burners. I'm ready for something special. For the price, I'm thinking that (2) SB13Us would be much easier to accomodate in the room than one of the big ported ones (i.e. PB13U). But I could be wrong! ;-)

off topic, but I miss seeing Lalakersfan34 posting on this forum.:confused:

Actually, they didn't show any stock their outlet page either.

Any guess when this new tweaked version might become available? Like are we thinking by late spring? Fall?

I have a couple of old Klipsch subwoofers that are no longer functional. I'm kind of excited to try one of the SB13Us out as a replacement.

My guess, they say shipping is resuming on 2/22, so 2/22. Its just a WAG though.

Edit (2/22/12 at 5:49 PM Mountain time): Or I could be wrong and it will be after the 22nd...;)

I have my setup in my living room which is about 16x16 but opens into my kitchen. I used to have a cs-plus. Firget the size. But would a sb12 be ok? Wife would want the small box and it fits mu budget.

I am 90% movies.

Thoughts?

I have my setup in my living room which is about 16x16 but opens into my kitchen. I used to have a cs-plus. Firget the size. But would a sb12 be ok? Wife would want the small box and it fits mu budget.

I am 90% movies.

Thoughts?

Well you can't go much smaller than the SB12 for a 12-inch driver (the SB12 is slightly over 14" on a side). How does the living room open in the kitchen? Is it completely open or just a doorway? If it's completely open you may want a sub with more output if you really like shaking things up.

Then again, I have the SB12 (albeit in a smaller living room that opens to a kitchen only through a doorway) and at normal listening volumes the sub shakes the whole bungalow, and I never saw the limiter light flashing. So I guess I'm far from the SB12's limits. Your mileage may vary. I really don't know how the SB12 compares to the CS-Plus, but seeing the size of this thing, they don't seem to be in the same league :)

Thanks for the response. Just to clarify the cs-plus was never in this room just a reference of what i used to have listened to

It openes up ti the kitchen completely. I just want better extension. Not shake the walls down :)

Thanks for the response. Just to clarify the cs-plus was never in this room just a reference of what i used to have listened to

It openes up ti the kitchen completely. I just want better extension. Not shake the walls down :)

That begs the question: better extension than what, if the CS-Plus was not in this room?

The SB12 has a very good extension (down to 22 Hz, but could go lower depending on your room), but not as good as a ported sub tuned below 20Hz. However, it's a sealed sub, so the roll-off is gentle (compared to ported subs) below 20 Hz, and you still hear very low frequencies; just not with lots of output.

You should probably contact SVS directly -- if they feel the SB12 is not sufficient in your case, I think they will tell you. SVS is known for not pushing a sale and giving good advice.

If you are flexible on budget but not on size, the SB13-Plus is 18" on a side, so not that much bigger, and much more powerful, using the Ultra's 1000W Sledge amp (the SB12 uses the NSD's 400W Sledge amp). But it's almost twice the price.

If you are flexible on size but not on budget, both PB12-NSD and PC12-NSD offer more output and a better extension for 100$ more or so. The PC being a cylinder, it takes up less footprint. They are both much bigger than the SB12 though.

I have my setup in my living room which is about 16x16 but opens into my kitchen. I used to have a cs-plus. Firget the size. But would a sb12 be ok? Wife would want the small box and it fits mu budget.

I am 90% movies.

Thoughts?

If you're 90% movies, get a boomer, the SB-12 isn't really a HT sub, its more suited for sound quality (i.e. music).

I'm trying to fend off the "upgrade bug" as much as possible, but you know how it goes when you upgrade other parts of your system.... you have to wonder what you're leaving on the table.

I've currently got a PB12-NSD.. the older version with the BASH amp. I recently upgraded my receiver to a Denon AVR-1912 and my speakers to a full Ascend Acoustics 340/170 system. These are great speakers for the money with lots of detail and clarity.

I feel like I am missing a little punch in the midrange. I've got the sub crossed at 120Hz in the receiver (phase set to Zero and internal crossover disabled) and the speakers crossed at 80, with all speakers set to "SMALL." I've got the "Dynamic Volume" setting turned off in the receiver. The Audyssey MultEQ originally set the sub to -7.5db but I have raised that to about -4db. This is with the volume knob on the sub set to about 35-40%.

I still get the deep rumbles from explosions and stuff like that, but I feel like some of the sonic impact from the mid bass region is lacking. That could either be due to my settings, or it could be due to the sub having to work harder to match the mains; I don't really know.

My question is... how much sonic difference would there be between my current sub and a new PB12-Plus? Or, is there something else I am overlooking that I may need to try first? I have had the sub in the same corner position for quite some time and it did have more punch before the upgrade, but those speakers would not handle nearly as much bass as the Ascends I replaced them with.

(This system is used for 95% home theater and TV viewing)

If you're 90% movies, get a boomer, the SB-12 isn't really a HT sub, its more suited for sound quality (i.e. music).

True. But my budget only allows this svs sub an i know it will blow away any other sub in this price range correct?

True. But my budget only allows this svs sub an i know it will blow away any other sub in this price range correct?

It's probably true (never compared) that a PB12-NSD or a PC12-NSD would be more appropriate for HT as they have a slightly better extension and output. But to say that the SB12-NSD is not suited for HT use would be misguided at best :D

I'm pretty sure that for 650 bucks it's hard to do better in that form factor. Retail offerings will be certainly worse. As for other ID sub makers, I can't tell. How does the SB12-NSD compare to the Epik Legend (500$), Emotiva X-Ref 12 (700$), Hsu VTF-3 Mk4 (660$), Outlaw LMF-1 EX (650$)? Hard to tell from specs alone, and to be able to compare them with authority, well you'd have to love collecting expensive subwoofers I guess...

One thing is sure though, the SB12-NSD is an SVS subwoofer, so you can't be *that* wrong if you go with it. Although if you can negotiate a bigger sub with your significant other and can wait to save 100$ more, you may be more satisfied with the PB or PC.

I have tried my SB12-NSD without the PB12-plus in my setup and it was pretty damn impressive on movies. It is corner loaded and Eq'd and it was able to perform very well. It would be more then adequate for someone that hasn't experience the very low rumbling bass the bigger SVS units can provide.

I have tried my SB12-NSD without the PB12-plus in my setup and it was pretty damn impressive on movies. It is corner loaded and Eq'd and it was able to perform very well. It would be more then adequate for someone that hasn't experience the very low rumbling bass the bigger SVS units can provide.

+1

I have tried the same with my SB. Even though the limiter would flash a bit, it never made a bad noise and sounded clean during dynamic movie passages.

Now that I have two of them stacked with my PB12plus, headroom is a non issue and the limiter virtually never flashes.

I have tried my SB12-NSD without the PB12-plus in my setup and it was pretty damn impressive on movies. It is corner loaded and Eq'd and it was able to perform very well. It would be more then adequate for someone that hasn't experience the very low rumbling bass the bigger SVS units can provide.

Only issue is i have experienced that. Had my cs-plus tuned to 16hz with a 1000 watt samson amp. This all in a 12x12 room lol

my PB13 Ultra, Just awesome!

I'll bet the change will be the same look as the PB12-Plus. The SB13 is two-tone with a matte top and veneered sides. I'll bet it'll look just like the PB12 cabinet.

Thanks for your feedback.

I need some advise regarding a subwoofer to match my 7.0 Paradigm Studio setup, I just bought a studio setup 100, 690, and 4 590 surround. The dealer who sold me the speaker have recommended a Sub 15 with my setup. However, I am lean toward the SVS PB-13 Plus sub for my 20'x14.4'x8.5' dedicated room.

In term of availability in my region. I live in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia and the speakers dealer is in Dubai so I will be shipping them from there which is not a big problem. On the other hand, the SVS I will be buying online shipped to my sister's apartment in NY and I will pick it up when I visit my sister in April, and of course I will pay green to ship a 150 lb sub with me. So price wise they will be the same $2k for the sub plus shipping which will be around $600, and for the Sub 15 they gave me an offer on it since I bought the speaker from them for $2,133.

But in term of performance how would a sealed 15" 1,700 RMS compare to a ported 13.5" 1,000 DPS?

My use of the sub will be 30% music and 70% movies.

Thanks again,

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1395770

I need to get to back to the dealer as soon as possible so I posted a separate thread.
Thanks

my PB13 Ultra, Just awesome!

Hep!! Mine too!!

I'm so sad... I was hoping that when SVS changed their webpage showing that they are resuming shipping on the SB13-Ultra, that they would also be showing black as one of the ordering finish choices. I'm just not into Cherry... Well sometimes... :p

Well; if they start offerring it again, I'll be ordering one.

Just as a point of conversation. If the current price points stay the same on the PB13-Ultra versus the SB13-Ultra, would it be a better setup to have (2) SB13-Ultras versus (1) PB13-Ultra? I can just picture in my mind seeing a SB13-Ultra right beside the left-front and right-front speakers. :D

But in term of performance how would a sealed 15" 1,700 RMS compare to a ported 13.5" 1,000 DPS?


the SVS will outperform the Sub15 in the very low frequencies (under 30Hz). Above that, it may be closer (I haven't seen the Sub15 measured yet)

I'm so sad... I was hoping that when SVS changed their webpage showing that they are resuming shipping on the SB13-Ultra, that they would also be showing black as one of the ordering finish choices. I'm just not into Cherry... Well sometimes... :p

Well; if they start offerring it again, I'll be ordering one.

Just as a point of conversation. If the current price points stay the same on the PB13-Ultra versus the SB13-Ultra, would it be a better setup to have (2) SB13-Ultras versus (1) PB13-Ultra? I can just picture in my mind seeing a SB13-Ultra right beside the left-front and right-front speakers. :D

Anybody knows why SVS chose to call it the SB13-Plus and not, as you mention, the SB13-Ultra? It shares the 1000W amp and 13-inch driver of the Ultra series. Is it because they're planning a bigger sealed box down the road? (I've heard about an SB16... is that just a rumor?) Or just because the overall bass response is on par with the Plus ported boxes and cylinder?

The specs on the SB13 are impressive, but the frequency response seems pretty much the same as the SB12. I guess the overall output will be higher -- how can't it be with a larger driver, cabinet and more than twice the power. But the low-end -3dB point is 22Hz, verus 23Hz for the SB12. Not a huge difference... I guess you also pay for the DSP controls.

I'm not in the market for a new sub (I got my SB12 on December) but of course I'm interested to know how I will ugprade from there, eventually. I like the SB12 a lot and I'm drooling when I see the description for the SB13, but I'm preplexed by the actual specs.

Anybody knows why SVS chose to call it the SB13-Plus and not, as you mention, the SB13-Ultra? It shares the 1000W amp and 13-inch driver of the Ultra series. Is it because they're planning a bigger sealed box down the road? (I've heard about an SB16... is that just a rumor?) Or just because the overall bass response is on par with the Plus ported boxes and cylinder?

The specs on the SB13 are impressive, but the frequency response seems pretty much the same as the SB12. I guess the overall output will be higher -- how can't it be with a larger driver, cabinet and more than twice the power. But the low-end -3dB point is 22Hz, verus 23Hz for the SB12. Not a huge difference... I guess you also pay for the DSP controls.

I'm not in the market for a new sub (I got my SB12 on December) but of course I'm interested to know how I will ugprade from there, eventually. I like the SB12 a lot and I'm drooling when I see the description for the SB13, but I'm preplexed by the actual specs.


I've been wondering the same for a while. I think the SB13 is louder but also tuned to have a gentler rolloff, so that it can benefit more on the low end from the gain of small rooms.

Anybody knows why SVS chose to call it the SB13-Plus and not, as you mention, the SB13-Ultra? It shares the 1000W amp and 13-inch driver of the Ultra series. Is it because they're planning a bigger sealed box down the road? (I've heard about an SB16... is that just a rumor?) Or just because the overall bass response is on par with the Plus ported boxes and cylinder?


The drivers not the same as in the Ultra.

From SVS's website (http://www.svsound.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=10&category_id=6&vmcchk=1&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=79): "The 13-Plus driver is an exclusive hybrid design using the best parts from our 12-Plus and 13-Ultra drivers, along with a unique voice coil optimized for this application, and an additional gap extension plate to achieve even more linear stroke and lower distortion."

Also, at least originally, the SB16-Ultra was planned, using the new driver and Neo mag's. With the cost of neodymium skyrocketing (beyond that of even other REM's), that idea got shelved per Ed Mullen. Hopefully through some creative engineering they'll be able to bring it back inline. Based off of the newsletter sent on Feb. 6 though, I don't know how high of a priority something like that is,

From the newsletter:

"You want even lower priced high performance subwoofers and you want a new premium speaker line that matches the performance of our subwoofers. We were already working diligently on both, so stay tuned."

It looks like they are working on the other end of the sub spectrum at the moment.

Doing a bit of daydreaming here:
Personally, I'd love to see a few more products, such as a PB13-Plus, using the driver from the SB13+, the 800 watt DSP amp in the 12+, and a slightly larger enclosure. In my daydream, this replaces the existing PB/PB12.5 DSP line.

In order to then avoid cannibalizing Ultra13 sales, switch the materials for the enclosure to something like Baltic Birch, to reduce weight, bump the size a hair, and plop in the 1200 watt amp they were looking at for the SB16-Ultra.

The materials difference (Baltic Birch vs. MDF), slightly larger cabinets, and the improvements in the driver (from the Plus to the Ultra 13's) would hopefully be enough to distinguish the lines. Finally, utilizing the weight advantages found in BB over MDF, bring back the 16" driver but with more conventional materials used (instead of Neo),and put it into both a sealed and a ported sub.

Granted, a ported 16 Ultra would need to be a big box, but other ID's are having success with them (such as JTR's Cap's for example). The Ultra-13 is still among the best in class, but the class keeps improving at a rapid clip (Sumbersive to Submersive HP to the upcoming Submersive XL, the original Captivator w/ the passive radiator to the 2011 with the massive 18", to the new Cap 1000, Cap S, Cap S2 and powered Cap, and of course the JTR Orbit Shifter).

SVS is a smart company, I'm sure they are well ahead of me on any thoughts about the competition, but it is still fun to daydream about what may be in the pipe.

/daydream.

I've been wondering the same for a while. I think the SB13 is louder but also tuned to have a gentler rolloff, so that it can benefit more on the low end from the gain of small rooms.

I don't believe it plays loud and low as the Ultra. They should have called the PB-13 the PB-13 "Infra" instead of Ultra since Ultra has more to with high frequencies.

The drivers not the same as in the Ultra.

From SVS's website (http://www.svsound.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=10&category_id=6&vmcchk=1&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=79): "The 13-Plus driver is an exclusive hybrid design using the best parts from our 12-Plus and 13-Ultra drivers, along with a unique voice coil optimized for this application, and an additional gap extension plate to achieve even more linear stroke and lower distortion."

Also, at least originally, the SB16-Ultra was planned, using the new driver and Neo mag's. With the cost of neodymium skyrocketing (beyond that of even other REM's), that idea got shelved per Ed Mullen. Hopefully through some creative engineering they'll be able to bring it back inline. Based off of the newsletter sent on Feb. 6 though, I don't know how high of a priority something like that is,

From the newsletter:

"You want even lower priced high performance subwoofers and you want a new premium speaker line that matches the performance of our subwoofers. We were already working diligently on both, so stay tuned."

It looks like they are working on the other end of the sub spectrum at the moment.

Doing a bit of daydreaming here:
Personally, I'd love to see a few more products, such as a PB13-Plus, using the driver from the SB13+, the 800 watt DSP amp in the 12+, and a slightly larger enclosure. In my daydream, this replaces the existing PB/PB12.5 DSP line.

In order to then avoid cannibalizing Ultra13 sales, switch the materials for the enclosure to something like Baltic Birch, to reduce weight, bump the size a hair, and plop in the 1200 watt amp they were looking at for the SB16-Ultra.

The materials difference (Baltic Birch vs. MDF), slightly larger cabinets, and the improvements in the driver (from the Plus to the Ultra 13's) would hopefully be enough to distinguish the lines. Finally, utilizing the weight advantages found in BB over MDF, bring back the 16" driver but with more conventional materials used (instead of Neo),and put it into both a sealed and a ported sub.

Granted, a ported 16 Ultra would need to be a big box, but other ID's are having success with them (such as JTR's Cap's for example). The Ultra-13 is still among the best in class, but the class keeps improving at a rapid clip (Sumbersive to Submersive HP to the upcoming Submersive XL, the original Captivator w/ the passive radiator to the 2011 with the massive 18", to the new Cap 1000, Cap S, Cap S2 and powered Cap, and of course the JTR Orbit Shifter).

SVS is a smart company, I'm sure they are well ahead of me on any thoughts about the competition, but it is still fun to daydream about what may be in the pipe.

/daydream.

The price will go they try to contend with their high end competitors. They will stay viable as company if they continue to make great products at an affordable price. I don't want to see them try to chase down the high end an take losses.

It's probably true (never compared) that a PB12-NSD or a PC12-NSD would be more appropriate for HT as they have a slightly better extension and output. But to say that the SB12-NSD is not suited for HT use would be misguided at best :D

I'm pretty sure that for 650 bucks it's hard to do better in that form factor. Retail offerings will be certainly worse. As for other ID sub makers, I can't tell. How does the SB12-NSD compare to the Epik Legend (500$), Emotiva X-Ref 12 (700$), Hsu VTF-3 Mk4 (660$), Outlaw LMF-1 EX (650$)? Hard to tell from specs alone, and to be able to compare them with authority, well you'd have to love collecting expensive subwoofers I guess...

One thing is sure though, the SB12-NSD is an SVS subwoofer, so you can't be *that* wrong if you go with it. Although if you can negotiate a bigger sub with your significant other and can wait to save 100$ more, you may be more satisfied with the PB or PC.

Not that its not suited for HT, any subs is suited for HT if you place in your HT, however I should of said some other subs are might be better suited for HT where the goal is to obtain that boom.

The price will go they try to contend with their high end competitors. They will stay viable as company if they continue to make great products at an affordable price. I don't want to see them try to chase down the high end an take losses.

No one is hoping they cause harm to themselves as a company, nor saying they are doing anything wrong. I was, as I wrote, just daydreaming about other products they could make. I was thinking of using existing materials (so less R&D costs), and the price of the proposed SB16-Ultra was already rather high, as is the price point of the competition at that level. SVS enjoys a worldwide market, so it could capitalize on economies of scale to a greater extent than JTR or Seaton. But, as Mark Seaton says in his sig line "Make no little plans; they have no magic to stir men's blood..." Daniel H. Burnham. Nothing wrong with thinking big.

I've been wondering the same for a while. I think the SB13 is louder but also tuned to have a gentler rolloff, so that it can benefit more on the low end from the gain of small rooms.

I think you're right. SVS should include hi-res versions of their frequency response curves, it's hard to compare as it is. But the SB13's curve seems indeed slightly gentler -- if the frequency scale is about the same.

Still, if I had the money I would have had gotten the SB13, but now that I have the SB12, it seems to me the incentive to upgrade to the SB13 is not that present.

I listen to more music now that I have a good sub (also upgraded to decent tower fronts so that helps a lot) and I really appreciate what the SB12 does in that department. I wonder if using one of SVS's ported sub (in a small living room) would result in a *degradation* of quality for music. I'd certainly like going even deeper than the SB12 for movies and games but probably not at the price of boomy/muddy bass in music tracks. I know that you can hardly describe any SVS product as muddy but the doubt persists.

Not that its not suited for HT, any subs is suited for HT if you place in your HT, however I should of said some other subs are might be better suited for HT where the goal is to obtain that boom.

I'm 100% with you there: if you want a great HT experience *and* have the place *and* can manage 100$ more for a ported sub, why not go with a PB and PC.

In my case at least, the SB12 is about as big as I can go -- anything bigger would get me stares at best, and would probably cause structural problems on top of that :) -- and the 650.00 special was already about 150.00 more than the budget I had in mind. I'm glad I did go that way and discovered a complete new dimension in audio in the process, but the fact remains, there are very good reasons for SVS to groom their entry-level lineup.

The drivers not the same as in the Ultra.

From SVS's website (http://www.svsound.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=10&category_id=6&vmcchk=1&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=79): "The 13-Plus driver is an exclusive hybrid design using the best parts from our 12-Plus and 13-Ultra drivers, along with a unique voice coil optimized for this application, and an additional gap extension plate to achieve even more linear stroke and lower distortion."

Also, at least originally, the SB16-Ultra was planned, using the new driver and Neo mag's. With the cost of neodymium skyrocketing (beyond that of even other REM's), that idea got shelved per Ed Mullen. Hopefully through some creative engineering they'll be able to bring it back inline. Based off of the newsletter sent on Feb. 6 though, I don't know how high of a priority something like that is,

From the newsletter:

"You want even lower priced high performance subwoofers and you want a new premium speaker line that matches the performance of our subwoofers. We were already working diligently on both, so stay tuned."

It looks like they are working on the other end of the sub spectrum at the moment.

Doing a bit of daydreaming here:
Personally, I'd love to see a few more products, such as a PB13-Plus, using the driver from the SB13+, the 800 watt DSP amp in the 12+, and a slightly larger enclosure. In my daydream, this replaces the existing PB/PB12.5 DSP line.

In order to then avoid cannibalizing Ultra13 sales, switch the materials for the enclosure to something like Baltic Birch, to reduce weight, bump the size a hair, and plop in the 1200 watt amp they were looking at for the SB16-Ultra.

The materials difference (Baltic Birch vs. MDF), slightly larger cabinets, and the improvements in the driver (from the Plus to the Ultra 13's) would hopefully be enough to distinguish the lines. Finally, utilizing the weight advantages found in BB over MDF, bring back the 16" driver but with more conventional materials used (instead of Neo),and put it into both a sealed and a ported sub.

Granted, a ported 16 Ultra would need to be a big box, but other ID's are having success with them (such as JTR's Cap's for example). The Ultra-13 is still among the best in class, but the class keeps improving at a rapid clip (Sumbersive to Submersive HP to the upcoming Submersive XL, the original Captivator w/ the passive radiator to the 2011 with the massive 18", to the new Cap 1000, Cap S, Cap S2 and powered Cap, and of course the JTR Orbit Shifter).

SVS is a smart company, I'm sure they are well ahead of me on any thoughts about the competition, but it is still fun to daydream about what may be in the pipe.

/daydream.

Perhaps they will bring back the PB10 nsd and reintroduce the SB10nsd. They are missing out on a number of sales in the $400-500 range

I can only imagine what SVsound could do with a ported 16" driver as their "tiny" 12 and 13" drivers compete well with the 15" and some 18" subs out there

I can only imagine what SVsound could do with a ported 16" driver as their "tiny" 12 and 13" drivers compete well with the 15" and some 18" subs out there

Agreed.

yes, the pb10 is sadly missing from their lineup. Most people are looking for subs in the under $500 range, and in the past, I would say "spend a bit more than that Klipsch, Energy or whatever and get a SVS....it will give you true 20Hz performance"

SB10 would be a good sub for those looking at desktop or bedroom systems.

And yes, some kind of statement sealed sub is still something they should consider...something that will compete against the best boutique subs available (and give the more "industrial" high output subs some competition.

I think the missing PB10 is the biggest gap in their lineup. They have essentially given that whole segment away to HSU. IMO, it's good business to offer a good quality, entry-level sub. It gets people into the "family" and tends to lead to eventual upgrades in the "family" when conditions allow.

I listen to more music now that I have a good sub (also upgraded to decent tower fronts so that helps a lot) and I really appreciate what the SB12 does in that department. I wonder if using one of SVS's ported sub (in a small living room) would result in a *degradation* of quality for music. I'd certainly like going even deeper than the SB12 for movies and games but probably not at the price of boomy/muddy bass in music tracks. I know that you can hardly describe any SVS product as muddy but the doubt persists.

I own the PC12-NSD and from my vantage point it sounds VERY GOOD with music.....and I upgraded from a sealed Velodyne sub which was known for its musicality. I am COMPLETELY SATISFIED with the PC12...it rocks when it comes to movies (I had never experienced such "sub-sonic" levels with my Velodyne F1000) and it blows me away on music with its excellent precision and tightness.

The only real problem I'm experiencing (and it is a REAL PROBLEM!) is that I'm so tempted to revisit my whole CD collection (over 400 CDs) and Blu-ray/HD DVD collection (well over 100) to see what I've been missing all these years!:cool:

I've heard a few comments, but I'm still curious...

A single PB13-Ultra sales for around $2K. If you purchased two of the SB13-Plus units, it would be a little more money like $2.4K. Looking at the specs of both models and in using two individual subs place apart from each other (say to the outside of the front speakers, what might the resulting performance be like?

My best guess is that with two subs you would even out any nulls in the room. The gentle rolloff of the SB13s at 20hz would be much less of an issue having two units running. The SB13s would be clean for music and may even edge out the the PB13-Ultra in HT use. This would be neat to see tested out. Anyone with a spare $5K in their pocket?

What might you guess the performance outcome would be?

I've heard a few comments, but I'm still curious...

A single PB13-Ultra sales for around $2K. If you purchased two of the SB13-Plus units, it would be a little more money like $2.4K. Looking at the specs of both models and in using two individual subs place apart from each other (say to the outside of the front speakers, what might the resulting performance be like?

My best guess is that with two subs you would even out any nulls in the room. The gentle rolloff of the SB13s at 20hz would be much less of an issue having two units running. The SB13s would be clean for music and may even edge out the the PB13-Ultra in HT use. This would be neat to see tested out. Anyone with a spare $5K in their pocket?

What might you guess the performance outcome would be?


I was told by ed at svs that it would take 4 sb13+ to equal a pb13 ultra at max output at 20hz. The sb13+'s would have more output above 40hz. I think this is all without room gain factored inn.

Hey,


I currently have a PB12-NSD, which is my 2nd real sub I own. First was a BIC F12. I love the sound of the SVS but am curious about the HSU 15H.

Has anyone of you had both subs and can give me their opinion on each? Could you also please tell me the approximate room size you have had either sub playing in?

Very much obliged,


Ray

I own the PC12-NSD and from my vantage point it sounds VERY GOOD with music....

(...)

I am COMPLETELY SATISFIED with the PC12...


To be honest I was not expecting anybody to say they're disappointed with their SVS. You got to have some sort of advantage with the PC12 or else nobody would be building those over small sealed boxes like the SB12.


The only real problem I'm experiencing (and it is a REAL PROBLEM!) is that I'm so tempted to revisit my whole CD collection (over 400 CDs) and Blu-ray/HD DVD collection (well over 100) to see what I've been missing all these years!:cool:

That I can relate to :) It seems that even among styles I normally don't like, I'm finding superb basslines. Normally in my car, when I'm alone, I just select metal & techno songs but now that I listen to more music in the living room, I'm looking for more ambiant music. Bass guitar sounds like the player is in my living room.

Feel free to share your discoveries, I like finding new songs that are particularly interesting to try with my new sub. On that topic, you guys all ought to listen to the Solaris movie original soundtrack by Cliff Martinez. *goose bumps*.

I was told by ed at svs that it would take 4 sb13+ to equal a pb13 ultra at max output at 20hz. The sb13+'s would have more output above 40hz. I think this is all without room gain factored inn.

Wow. Ok so the SB13-Plus is not in the same league at all for the lower-bass.

Wow. Ok so the SB13-Plus is not in the same league at all for the lower-bass.

Not at all; from my conversations with Ed when I was replacing my PB10-NSD, the SB13 would have been a wash in terms of output at 20Hz and 25Hz. Just goes to show the advantage of a large ported enclosure.

I know I should work on room treatment first to try to get a more even bass around my living room. But I have very little leeway in terms of what I can do without desecrating the living room decor.

So I looked at various sub EQ strategies. I don't have EQ on my SB12 and I don't have the necessary hardware to run REW. I've seen lots of people with the Anti-Mode 8033 here and there, and a few reviews.

However the reviews typically only show graphics of the improvements. They're rather nice, but ultimately, what I'd like to have is a first-hand account of how well it works. Does it help marginally or is it night and day? The device is rather pricey at almost 400$ (and hard to find used in Canada). So do we get 400$ worth of improvement? I'm interested in any feedback on this.

Another possiblity seems to use REW in conjunction with an Behringer DSP1124P feedback suppressor, which has a configurable filter bank. The unit is cheaper than the Anti-Mode (110$ now at Amazon.com) but as I understand it, EQ'ing a room is not straightforward at all, involving multiple parameter configurations + measurements cycles to get it right, along with getting the right measurement gear (SPL meter + decent sound card). The Anti-Mode seems to be mostly automated and hassle-free in comparison.

Any comment on that? Is that a must-buy or should I save my money towards a sub upgrade to a model including DSP EQ?

I'd first start by measuring what you're working with now.

Also, what are you using (if anything) for room correction software (Audyssey, etc), as that usually will help tame peaks.

I guess this is a good advice. Maybe using REW with my receiver's calibration mic and the onboard sound card would give a rough idea of the problem. REW's documentation recommends using an SPL meter + a better external sound card but the gear they recommend is about 300$ in itself.

I have a Pioneer VSX-1020 so that's Advanced MCACC. Doesn't do anything for the sub except adjust the overall volume. I think I can average mesurements over 3 locations though. But no EQ below ~64Hz and I'm pretty sure even the 64Hz EQ does not apply to the sub output.

I guess this is a good advice. Maybe using REW with my receiver's calibration mic and the onboard sound card would give a rough idea of the problem. REW's documentation recommends using an SPL meter + a better external sound card but the gear they recommend is about 300$ in itself.


Don't know about the calibration mic that came with your receiver, but a Rat Shack meter would suffice when coupled with the correction table.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5272422#post5272422

Stinks that the receiver doesn't correct the sub since the low end is where the most help is needed typically.

Yeah come to think of it my receiver's calibration mic may not be reliable below 60Hz.

Everybody's talking about that RadioShack SPL meter but it seems hard to find in practice. At least in Canada. SVS's exclusive distributor sells it for 60 bucks + taxes + shipping. Not sure if it's a good price. Seems like a must-have though.

Don't you have to get some kind of higher-end Audyssey option (MultiEQ XT?) to be able to EQ the sub? But I think you're right, Audyssey seems to be much better suited to calibrate sub frequencies. However, I'm not in the market for a new receiver for a while...

Hey,


I currently have a PB12-NSD, which is my 2nd real sub I own. First was a BIC F12. I love the sound of the SVS but am curious about the HSU 15H.

Has anyone of you had both subs and can give me their opinion on each? Could you also please tell me the approximate room size you have had either sub playing in?

Very much obliged,


Ray


Please excuse my shameless bump.


Ray

Ok, a non-audio question: Is it possible for one person to carry the SVS PB12-Plus up a flight of stairs on his own? I suspect not, but I'm hoping... I've already used my friends to help me carry up a TV, sofa, and other furniture upstairs, and don't really want to bug them again.

I know I should work on room treatment first to try to get a more even bass around my living room. But I have very little leeway in terms of what I can do without desecrating the living room decor.

So I looked at various sub EQ strategies. I don't have EQ on my SB12 and I don't have the necessary hardware to run REW. I've seen lots of people with the Anti-Mode 8033 here and there, and a few reviews.

However the reviews typically only show graphics of the improvements. They're rather nice, but ultimately, what I'd like to have is a first-hand account of how well it works. Does it help marginally or is it night and day? The device is rather pricey at almost 400$ (and hard to find used in Canada). So do we get 400$ worth of improvement? I'm interested in any feedback on this.

Another possiblity seems to use REW in conjunction with an Behringer DSP1124P feedback suppressor, which has a configurable filter bank. The unit is cheaper than the Anti-Mode (110$ now at Amazon.com) but as I understand it, EQ'ing a room is not straightforward at all, involving multiple parameter configurations + measurements cycles to get it right, along with getting the right measurement gear (SPL meter + decent sound card). The Anti-Mode seems to be mostly automated and hassle-free in comparison.

Any comment on that? Is that a must-buy or should I save my money towards a sub upgrade to a model including DSP EQ?

If you can find one (they have recently been discontinued) the SVS ASEQ1 is a superb piece of kit which will have a totally dramatic effect on your bass. I used mine for a couple of years, in a very difficult room, and only sold it on when I bought an Onkyo 5509 which has Audyssey XT32, which is in effect the same for the bass frequencies as the EQ1. The difference the EQ1 makes is astounding. I have described it many times in these forums as the single best piece of equipment I have ever bought. An alternative would be any AVR that features XT32.

I have not used the AntiMode but have heard good reports about it - but it is not as sophisticated as the EQ1. Google will help you find further info on each and to draw comparisons.

Yeah come to think of it my receiver's calibration mic may not be reliable below 60Hz.

Everybody's talking about that RadioShack SPL meter but it seems hard to find in practice. At least in Canada. SVS's exclusive distributor sells it for 60 bucks + taxes + shipping. Not sure if it's a good price. Seems like a must-have though.

Don't you have to get some kind of higher-end Audyssey option (MultiEQ XT?) to be able to EQ the sub? But I think you're right, Audyssey seems to be much better suited to calibrate sub frequencies. However, I'm not in the market for a new receiver for a while...

The rat shack meter is a pretty useful tool for certain; price sounds about right.

As far as Audyssey, MultEQ and up (MultEQ XT, XT32) will apply filters to the sub. Only 2EQ doesn't do anything with the sub.

http://www.audyssey.com/audio-technology/multeq

Ok, a non-audio question: Is it possible for one person to carry the SVS PB12-Plus up a flight of stairs on his own? I suspect not, but I'm hoping... I've already used my friends to help me carry up a TV, sofa, and other furniture upstairs, and don't really want to bug them again.

Please don't attempt this....it's much too nice of a sub to risk it tumbling down a flight of stairs. Even if you can shoulder 125 pounds, the cabinet is BIG and would be really tough to keep a handle on.

Ok, a non-audio question: Is it possible for one person to carry the SVS PB12-Plus up a flight of stairs on his own? I suspect not, but I'm hoping... I've already used my friends to help me carry up a TV, sofa, and other furniture upstairs, and don't really want to bug them again.

Please don't attempt this....it's much too nice of a sub to risk it tumbling down a flight of stairs. Even is you can shoulder 125 pounds, the cabinet is BIG and would be really tough to keep a handle on.

I'm going to agree with trolly on this. Is it possible, sure, is it recommended, no. I'm a big guy (6'5", 260 lb's) and I'd still prefer to have a hand for going up more than a couple of steps. The PB+ has rounded corners, is a big box, and if the finish is like my Ultra's, a very smooth surface. In other words,its not just the weight, but the size and surface that cause issues.

Buy your friends a six pack of whatever and a pizza, its cheaper than a new sub or a hospital bill.

The rat shack meter is a pretty useful tool for certain; price sounds about right.

As far as Audyssey, MultEQ and up (MultEQ XT, XT32) will apply filters to the sub. Only 2EQ doesn't do anything with the sub.

http://www.audyssey.com/audio-technology/multeq

True, but XT32 is a significant step up from XT. 512x filter resolution in XT32 vs 128x in XT. The difference is very, very audible.

Please excuse my shameless bump.


Sorry Ray, you may want to allow more time for someone having heard both subs to manifest himself.

If you can find one (they have recently been discontinued) the SVS ASEQ1 is a superb piece of kit which will have a totally dramatic effect on your bass.
[QUOTE]

On one hand this is encouraging (i.e. sub EQ'ing is not subtle) but on the other hand, the SVS AS-EQ1 is indeed discontinued, hard to find even used, and was selling new for as much as my sub. I'd certainly like EQ'ing my sub but I'm not prepared to double my investment just for that. That's why a used Anti-Mode or Behringer unit may be interesting.

So the AS-EQ1 was basically a DSP with Audyssey MultEQ XT (the doc doesn't seem to mention XT32) and a mic? Maybe I should just pile my money up for a receiver upgrade then.

[QUOTE]
I have not used the AntiMode but have heard good reports about it - but it is not as sophisticated as the EQ1. Google will help you find further info on each and to draw comparisons.

It's more like a flame war between the Velodyne SMS-1, SVS AS-EQ1 and Anti-Mode. The Anti-Mode is significantly cheaper, so its lack of sophistication might be acceptable.

The rat shack meter is a pretty useful tool for certain; price sounds about right.

Maybe I should begin with that and see what I find using REW.

Thanks for your opinions guys.

A last question: do you know if any of these corrections (not only measurements) has been implemented as a software on a standard computer CPU? I'm wondering if an HTPC could do the job instead of a DSP.

neutro, I'm currently using XT32 for my Ultra's from my 4311 receiver, the difference between no-eq and good-eq is very noticeable and worthwhile. Before the 4311 I was using Audyssey XT (much older version in my old 4306) and an Anti-Mode 8033. I was just splitting the signal from the Anti-Mode to both subs, which are equidistant from the MLP. The set up worked very well, but XT32 does seem to be, at least subjectively, a little better sounding to my ears. The main difference for me with XT32 was how much better it handled the 5 other speakers than XT did.

The SVS AS-EQ1 used a different hardware setup, but had the same processing power as XT32. XT32 was a name released after the AS-EQ1, but if you check the threads for the AS-EQ1, the Audyssey thread, or the Audyssey Sub Equalizer you'll see they all did 512x processing, dual subs with individual distance/level settings, etc. They were good units, but when Audyssey changed their algorithms to require less MIPS (how XT32 does its thing on a shared processor), the market shifted.

I've run several types of sub-eq's over the years: SMS-1, BFD w/REW, Anti-Mode, Audyssey XT and XT32, R-DES, and more. My top two favorite in regards to response, convenience, and subjective & objective results are XT32 and then the Anti-Mode.

If you can find one (they have recently been discontinued) the SVS ASEQ1 is a superb piece of kit which will have a totally dramatic effect on your bass.


On one hand this is encouraging (i.e. sub EQ'ing is not subtle) but on the other hand, the SVS AS-EQ1 is indeed discontinued, hard to find even used, and was selling new for as much as my sub. I'd certainly like EQ'ing my sub but I'm not prepared to double my investment just for that. That's why a used Anti-Mode or Behringer unit may be interesting.


IKWYM but it's worth it. It doesn’t matter what the sub cost if it is performing at half its potential because of the problems in the room itself. And you could use the EQ1 with a sub that costs thousands of dollars if you wished and it would still make it sound better.


So the AS-EQ1 was basically a DSP with Audyssey MultEQ XT (the doc doesn't seem to mention XT32) and a mic? Maybe I should just pile my money up for a receiver upgrade then.

Yes, you are correct. The EQ1 uses XT32 technology (512x filter resolution for the bass). The benefit of upgrading to an XT-32 equipped AVR is that you would a) get a better AVR and b) you would benefit from XT-32 across the entire frequency spectrum. When I went from my XT-equipped Onkyo 5007 + EQ1 to the XT32-equipped 5509, the difference was not subtle. It was not as great as adding the EQ1 to the 5007 by any means (most benefit is felt in the bass region) but there were easily discernible sonic improvements wrt to better imaging, better separation, better resolved detail etc.


It's more like a flame war between the Velodyne SMS-1, SVS AS-EQ1 and Anti-Mode. The Anti-Mode is significantly cheaper, so its lack of sophistication might be acceptable.


Yes, I have heard good reports about the Anti-Mode and for the price it seems like a good unit. I am 100% sure the EQ1 is better, but then it is also twice the price. The EQ1 is highly sought after now - I sold mine within about an hour of advertising it - and to a buyer in a different country!


A last question: do you know if any of these corrections (not only measurements) has been implemented as a software on a standard computer CPU? I'm wondering if an HTPC could do the job instead of a DSP.

Not AFAIK. I also use an HTPC and I’d have been all over that if it were possible!

The set up worked very well, but XT32 does seem to be, at least subjectively, a little better sounding to my ears. The main difference for me with XT32 was how much better it handled the 5 other speakers than XT did.

Exactly what I found too. My bass was already up to XT32 standard thanks to my EQ1, but XT32 improved the *overall* sound too, as you found.

Thanks a lot for you recommendations Snowmanick. I guess the BFD w/REW way is not the easiest as it's not automatic. However it may be the cheapest -- I just saw a BFD for 70$ on CanuckAudioMart. Did you have any success at all with that? As for the Anti-Mode, where do you get that exactly? From the european web site?

As I'm doing signal processing for work (although not audio nor real-time), I'm trying to see how hard it would be to simply grab the input from a sound card, apply an appropriate FIR filter and output it. If it runs fast enough without causing improper delay or using too much CPU, that might be a fun project to work on. Of course I'd have to be able to measure the effect before/after anyway.

All that may be best discussed in another thread I guess, but I wanted some inputs from fellow SVS owner.

IKWYM but it's worth it. It doesn’t matter what the sub cost if it is performing at half its potential because of the problems in the room itself. And you could use the EQ1 with a sub that costs thousands of dollars if you wished and it would still make it sound better.


Makes lots of sense... But then again, finding an AS-EQ1 seems to be the biggest hurdle then.


Yes, I have heard good reports about the Anti-Mode and for the price it seems like a good unit.


If I can get a used one really cheap I might jump on that but they seem in rather high demand too. At close to 400$ new, it seems I would better put that aside for a receiver with XT32.


Not AFAIK. I also use an HTPC and I’d have been all over that if it were possible!

Quick search shows that http://convolver.sourceforge.net/ can apply FIR filters to sound being played by various means in Windows. But I can't tell if it's possible to apply that to a captured input.

JACK (jackaudio.org) is now available for Windows and there seems to be plugins and/or developement hooks to perform arbitrary processing. So, not a finished product but that may be interesting.

I'll let you guys beta-test my project before I commercialize it and become a rich man :D

But first I'll need a mic :P

I was told by ed at svs that it would take 4 sb13+ to equal a pb13 ultra at max output at 20hz. The sb13+'s would have more output above 40hz. I think this is all without room gain factored inn.

Wow, I would have guess it to come out much closer. PB13 is such a huge unit. I was hoping that 2 of the SB13s would be close enough. I like the idea of tight bass, but my HT is in the biggest room in the house with high ceiling.

So would everyone agree that a single PB13-Ultra is the way to go versus (2) SB13-Pluses?

I need some opinions.
I'm about to purchase a sub for my HT which is in a 12 x 15 x 7.5 room that is completely open on one end to another 850 sq ft. (same ceiling height).
I've been looking at the PC12-NSD and the Plus (also the Hsu VTF3 Mk4)
I have an older set of the Paradigm Monitor 9 V2 as my mains. Receiver is an Onkyo 709 and I currently am using a Velodyne ULD 12 that is still going strong since the late 80's.
I would like to know if the Plus is overkill for a small room like this or should I get the NSD or VTF3?

I like the idea of tight bass, but my HT is in the biggest room in the house with high ceiling.

So would everyone agree that a single PB13-Ultra is the way to go versus (2) SB13-Pluses?

Yes, get the PB13-Ultra. The SB's would get swallowed up in a large, open room with a tall cieling.
If it was primarily for music the SB's may do fine, but not trying to reproduce content below 25 hz in that space.
Tim

Wow, I would have guess it to come out much closer. PB13 is such a huge unit. I was hoping that 2 of the SB13s would be close enough. I like the idea of tight bass, but my HT is in the biggest room in the house with high ceiling.

So would everyone agree that a single PB13-Ultra is the way to go versus (2) SB13-Pluses?


Even given Ed's advice I went with 2 sb13 pluses. I love them and they destroy my bedroom.

If I were you I would do 2 pb12 pluses if you can afford it and have the space.

What Ed told me was in max output. The sb+ can go plenty low, mine is flat to about 20hz in my room, it just is not going to play 110db at 20hz which is fine with me since I don't listen that loudly.

Even given Ed's advice I went with 2 sb13 pluses. I love them and they destroy my bedroom.

If I were you I would do 2 pb12 pluses if you can afford it and have the space.

What Ed told me was in max output. The sb+ can go plenty low, mine is flat to about 20hz in my room, it just is not going to play 110db at 20hz which is fine with me since I don't listen that loudly.

A smaller sealed room (like your bedroom I assume) is perfect for an SB13.

I'm going to agree with trolly on this. Is it possible, sure, is it recommended, no. I'm a big guy (6'5", 260 lb's) and I'd still prefer to have a hand for going up more than a couple of steps. The PB+ has rounded corners, is a big box, and if the finish is like my Ultra's, a very smooth surface. In other words,its not just the weight, but the size and surface that cause issues.

Buy your friends a six pack of whatever and a pizza, its cheaper than a new sub or a hospital bill.

Agreed with you and Trolly! If you don't want to bother your friends, try slipping the delivery guy $10 or $20 to help you get it up there. From there you should be able to unbox it and slide it around on your own. Good luck!

Question (maybe dumb) can you feel sub 20hz tones if not at ref level?

I am getting an sb12 and i know it wont be able to go ref below 20 esp in my room. But what if i dont need ref levels. Will i still feel that pant shaking?

Question (maybe dumb) can you feel sub 20hz tones if not at ref level?

I am getting an sb12 and i know it wont be able to go ref below 20 esp in my room. But what if i dont need ref levels. Will i still feel that pant shaking?

The -3dB point for the SB12's frequency response is at 23 Hz. Below that it drops, but not *that* fast being a sealed sub. (I think the slope is 6dB/octave below that cut-off). So there's difinetely output at 20Hz but it's significantly lower than at 30Hz. At those frequencies, room gain plays an important role, and your mileage may vary. In my small living room, 20 Hz tones are clearly audible / felt but not at the same volume as 30 Hz.

On my system (Pioneer VSX-1020) with the SB12, I just played one of my favorite test mp3. It's entitled "360 Hz - 10 Hz Silicon Sound System" if you want to find it -- not sure what is the source. It's simply a robotic voice announcing the frequency of the next tone, which is sustained only for 2 sec, so it's not too harsh (beware of test tone mp3s; some of them can damage your speakers). Well at -30 dB in my small living room the 20 and 10 Hz tones are clearly perceptible, but the 30 Hz tone is much louder. I've never gone to reference level with that test. I fear too much for my house structure and ventilation ducts which have resonnance frequencies around 20 Hz :p

Just added my 7th svs sub today. Picked up a ~2 year old PB12+ for $250!!!!!

It has a couple of scratches on one of the oak panels but you can't see them anyways where I have it.

I can't get over how huge this thing is compared to my other subs (16-46PC+, 20-39PC+, 20-39PCI, SB13+ (x2), SB12 NSD). It doesn't really fit in the spot I wanted to put it in, but it sure sounds good!!

I can't get over how huge this thing is compared to my other subs (16-46PC+, 20-39PC+, 20-39PCI, SB13+ (x2), SB12 NSD).

You are one loyal customer! Good to see that SVS has served you well.

Personally I am the type of customer that has very little brand loyalty but SVS is one company where I wouldn't be afraid to buy over and over again.

Just added my 7th svs sub today. Picked up a ~2 year old PB12+ for $250!!!!!

It has a couple of scratches on one of the oak panels but you can't see them anyways where I have it.

I can't get over how huge this thing is compared to my other subs (16-46PC+, 20-39PC+, 20-39PCI, SB13+ (x2), SB12 NSD). It doesn't really fit in the spot I wanted to put it in, but it sure sounds good!!

That is steal and a half! Locally?

hello,

im a newbie and just got my pb12nsd today, and running the setup already, where should i set the low pass knob after calibration? my avr is denon 1910. thanks

hello,

im a newbie and just got my pb12nsd today, and running the setup already, where should i set the low pass knob after calibration? my avr is denon 1910. thanks

set the low pass knob to the highest value (fully clockwise) BEFORE running the setup.

set the low pass knob to the highest value (fully clockwise) BEFORE running the setup.

Yes -- on the sledge amp you should set it fully clockwise until you feel a click, meaning the low pass filter is disabled. Your receiver will be managing bass.

Yes, get the PB13-Ultra. The SB's would get swallowed up in a large, open room with a tall cieling.
If it was primarily for music the SB's may do fine, but not trying to reproduce content below 25 hz in that space.
Tim

I'd say go for the PB13-Ultra because it's plenty powerful by itself, but you can always add a second later to make it better. (smoother distribution among multiple positions)

However, I have 2 SB13's and there's NO WAY they'd get swallowed up in any household type room.. These things get loud enough to rattle stuff INSIDE the walls, lol.. I'm impressed with what they can do. However, 2x PB13 would be a LOT more powerful I'd imagine. I just don't need more power than the 2 SB13's can provide.

hello,

im a newbie and just got my pb12nsd today, and running the setup already, where should i set the low pass knob after calibration? my avr is denon 1910. thanks

Bryan, congrats on your new pb12nsd!! I got one last week, and it sounds really good.

Quick question, anytime mine is on (receiver can be on or off, sub cable connected/disconnected, etc) there is a "hiss" or "wind" noise coming from it. Based on all my reading around here, I was expecting some of that from the DSP/Noise Floor...but mine was audible from 6-8 feet away. I could hear it on the couch during quiet dialog on movies.

Do you have any noise like this and if so, how loud is it?

Regardless, I contacted SVS on Sat and they already sent out a new Amp...should be here in a few days. They were fantastic to deal with so far.

Bryan, congrats on your new pb12nsd!! I got one last week, and it sounds really good.

Quick question, anytime mine is on (receiver can be on or off, sub cable connected/disconnected, etc) there is a "hiss" or "wind" noise coming from it. Based on all my reading around here, I was expecting some of that from the DSP/Noise Floor...but mine was audible from 6-8 feet away. I could hear it on the couch during quiet dialog on movies.

Do you have any noise like this and if so, how loud is it?

Regardless, I contacted SVS on Sat and they already sent out a new Amp...should be here in a few days. They were fantastic to deal with so far.

hi gibsonpa

i dont here any hiss or wind sound from my sub, i tried to pause a movie and place my ear and i still dont hear any hiss sound. i love this sub shakes our house lol. i hope yours get fix.

Still trying to decide on which sub to get. Anyone ever get a SB13-Plus and wished they had gotten the PB13-Ultra? Are there any discount codes for SVS subs? Do they ever go on sale?

Thx

Bryan, congrats on your new pb12nsd!! I got one last week, and it sounds really good.

Quick question, anytime mine is on (receiver can be on or off, sub cable connected/disconnected, etc) there is a "hiss" or "wind" noise coming from it. Based on all my reading around here, I was expecting some of that from the DSP/Noise Floor...but mine was audible from 6-8 feet away. I could hear it on the couch during quiet dialog on movies.

Do you have any noise like this and if so, how loud is it?

Regardless, I contacted SVS on Sat and they already sent out a new Amp...should be here in a few days. They were fantastic to deal with so far.

What size room are you guys using yours in? I am thinking about getting one for me 12x15x8 living room. But it opens to a kitchen

my living room size is 20x14x9, it opens to kitchen too. get a pb12nsd you wont be disappointed, if you dont like you can return it.

Just wish it wasn't so big. I might have to get the sb12 due to the " boss". Hope it's enough

Still trying to decide on which sub to get. Anyone ever get a SB13-Plus and wished they had gotten the PB13-Ultra? Are there any discount codes for SVS subs? Do they ever go on sale?

Thx

Tough choice I know. I ended up going somewhere in between and went with dual PB 12+. No complaints at all.

If you are having a tough time deciding, give the guys at SVS a call or send an email. Let them know your room dimensions, treatments, speakers, receiver, current sub, and what kind of performance you are looking for, and I'm sure they could help you with your decision. I know Jack and Ed both helped me when I was trying to decide between a single Ultra, dual PB12+, or Epik Empire(s).

Still trying to decide on which sub to get. Anyone ever get a SB13-Plus and wished they had gotten the PB13-Ultra? Are there any discount codes for SVS subs? Do they ever go on sale?


I don't follow prices that much on SVS products but I haven't see them move much. The SB12 lost 50$ recently but that's because they're now offering a vinyl finish; the piano black finisht is still the same price.

Personnally I find products whose prices are wildly fluctuating depending on sales quite frustrating. You always end up wondering if you got a good bargain or not even if you're perfectly satisfied.

For a small business like SVS, periodically slashing prices on their subs would probably alienate a non-negligible proportion of their patrons. So I suspect SVS keeps their prices pretty much the same at all times, meaning there is no "wrong" time to buy their products.

Also if there was huge bargains to be had, that would mean the regular price of SVS subs would include a large margin, and I think SVS pride themselves with offering products at the lowest price possible for the performance.

I may be wrong with that (anyone feel free to correct me if there are such sales prices) but at least it's my first impression..

Just wish it wasn't so big. I might have to get the sb12 due to the " boss". Hope it's enough

Your room is about as big as mine, except that mine opens up on the kitchen through a regular (doorless) doorway -- far from being completely open.

I also have the SB12 and it's got *plenty* of power for rooms that big. In my case, my receiver will no doubt be the limiting factor. Listening to movies at a volume I'd describe as "loudish" for my tastes, I never saw the limiter led flash.

In smallish rooms also, the rather gentle roll-off in the SB12's frequency response means that room gain typically amplifies the sub-25Hz frequencies somewhat; I can hear 20Hz test tones (and even feel 10Hz tones), though not as loudly as 30Hz tones.

So even if you cannot afford the PB12-NSD because of WAF, the SB12 should still delight you. Its small size is really handly to more or less hide in a small living room. The PB12 is more like a mini-fridge in size so it's much more conspicuous.

Thanks for the response!! I am so torn lol!!!

Thanks for the response!! I am so torn lol!!!

I'm torn too. The size of the PC13-Ultra mosterously huge!!!

I think that the SB13-Plus will do what I need it to do. I just don't want one of them in American Cherry. When will they have the black back??? I'm finding it hard to wait... I'm not a patient man, I guess...

Thanks for the response!! I am so torn lol!!!

I didn't want to cause more doubt. I'm just saying that if the SB12 is the only acceptable SVS sub that you can get for any reason (budget, size, WAF), well I've seen problems worse than that :) If you think you can manage a PB or PC, go for it: you'll have more output and more extension, for a slight price and footprint increase. But the SB12 is quite capable in a form factor that is much easier to fit in a small living room.

I'm just worried about my open floor plan w the connected kitchen/dining room. I think I am getting he pb12 and if the wife hates it. Oh well...lol

Gotta wait for some PayPal funds to clear then I'm pulling the trigger. I'll keep you updated!

Edit I just measured and the pb would stick out further than my entertainment centers so that's a no go. So I am going to grab the sb12. Now question...

How would a sb13-plus compare to 2 sb12's ( I'm thinking of future here as opposed to what to buy now)

Still trying to decide on which sub to get. Anyone ever get a SB13-Plus and wished they had gotten the PB13-Ultra? Are there any discount codes for SVS subs? Do they ever go on sale?


I haven't seen them go on sale.

The SB13 doesn't really have usable response below 20Hz, and that's ok with me, because it still manages to shake the house pretty handily on soundtracks that provide it. Remember that a lot of the punch or impact you feel is actually more in the 30-50Hz range, and the SB13 isn't that far behind the PB13 in that range. I'd rather have 2 SB13's and have the benefit of smoother response that dual subs offer than one large PB13

The SB13-Plus is an outstanding sealed sub, the best in it's price range, imo. I will be picking up two of them to replace my single CHT 18.1(original) in my 12x15 living room. I had the PB12-NSD in my living room a year or two ago and it was a force to be reckoned with. The CHT is a better sub but not by much, honestly. They both have about the same amount of punch and I think the SVS actually had more balls down low. I even have the EQ on the CHT boosting the frequencies in the sub 25hz area. The CHT though bests it on tightness and SQ, especially for music, it really is hard to beat.

The SB13 doesn't really have usable response below 20Hz, and that's ok with me, because it still manages to shake the house pretty handily on soundtracks that provide it. Remember that a lot of the punch or impact you feel is actually more in the 30-50Hz range, and the SB13 isn't that far behind the PB13 in that range. I'd rather have 2 SB13's and have the benefit of smoother response that dual subs offer than one large PB13

You got a point. I admit the SB12 is the biggest sub I had the occasion to listen to properly, so I never heard a PB or PC in action. So I don't know what I'm missing. But the sub-20Hz frequency range is special. It's not *that* often-used , for starters. I guess movies now include infrasounds in their mixes, but how often is that, I guess not that much. As for music, I think the only instrument capable of getting below 20 Hz is the pipe organ (I read somewhere that the biggest pipe is 16 Hz). So that would leave synth bass tracks and videogames. My point is, there's not that much content below 20Hz.

Second, frequencies below 20Hz are not that much heard as felt, as a vibration... To really feel it, you gotta listen at rather high volumes, or it won't be that impressive. The effect of a powerful sub-20Hz tone might be really nice once in while, but it's not like it's actually part of what you hear. Mind you, I'm not saying I wouldn't like a PC-13 Ultra right beside me to feel that, it's just that the main appeal of a PC-13 Ultra, for me, would be to fill out a huge room with a cathedral roof with powerfull bass. As I'm in a modest living room (and not dedicated HT room), always listening at moderate volumes due to sleeping toddlers, the SB12 fits the bill and is nearly invisible. You can actually hide it under a coffee table and not lose floor space at all.

Ok I admit it, yes, I got a bit of envy towards PB and PC owners, and I'd love listening to it. So... anybody can compare directly what the SB12 and say, the PB12 or PC12 do? If you don't need the extra output (e.g. moderate volume listening), what does the difference in extension feels like? Is it a nice to have, or more a "once you taste it you won't go back" situation?

Is it a nice to have, or more a "once you taste it you won't go back" situation?

yes to both parts of that question
:)

You got a point. I admit the SB12 is the biggest sub I had the occasion to listen to properly, so I never heard a PB or PC in action. So I don't know what I'm missing. But the sub-20Hz frequency range is special. It's not *that* often-used , for starters. I guess movies now include infrasounds in their mixes, but how often is that, I guess not that much. As for music, I think the only instrument capable of getting below 20 Hz is the pipe organ (I read somewhere that the biggest pipe is 16 Hz). So that would leave synth bass tracks and videogames. My point is, there's not that much content below 20Hz.

Second, frequencies below 20Hz are not that much heard as felt, as a vibration... To really feel it, you gotta listen at rather high volumes, or it won't be that impressive. The effect of a powerful sub-20Hz tone might be really nice once in while, but it's not like it's actually part of what you hear. Mind you, I'm not saying I wouldn't like a PC-13 Ultra right beside me to feel that, it's just that the main appeal of a PC-13 Ultra, for me, would be to fill out a huge room with a cathedral roof with powerfull bass. As I'm in a modest living room (and not dedicated HT room), always listening at moderate volumes due to sleeping toddlers, the SB12 fits the bill and is nearly invisible. You can actually hide it under a coffee table and not lose floor space at all.

Ok I admit it, yes, I got a bit of envy towards PB and PC owners, and I'd love listening to it. So... anybody can compare directly what the SB12 and say, the PB12 or PC12 do? If you don't need the extra output (e.g. moderate volume listening), what does the difference in extension feels like? Is it a nice to have, or more a "once you taste it you won't go back" situation?

That's funny--I just finished buying parts for a small-sealed-room, music-only system, and I envy SB12 owners because if I had it in me to buy another sub, that'd be the one I'd buy for the application.

I've owned several smaller ported subs whose published specs claim an extension very similar to that of the SB12. I don't listen to my PC12 at high output levels (can't--I refuse to be evicted over this mess). I can tell you without reservation that the upgrade to this much more potent subwoofer introduced a night-and-day change to my movie-watching and even my music-listening experience, even at moderate output levels.

Oh my god, I want people to stop talking about the "threshold of audibility" issue. I don't care whether an 18Hz note has to be exceptionally loud in order for me to hear it with my ears; even at low volumes, I perceive it. Maybe I perceive it more as a tactile sensation (all over my head, along the floor with my feet, along the couch armrests with my hands, etc.) than as a 'sound,' per se, but I perceive it. I perceive the living hell out of it. Now that I understand what it is to perceive it, all content in that region is content that I want to perceive; it is an exciting new dimension to movies and music. It doesn't matter whether I'm using my auditory apparatus or not. I know that it is happening (I don't need measurement equipment to detect it), I love it, and I won't go without it in future.

As for how often recordings dip into the ultra-deep-bass region, they're getting more and more common. Granted, if your music listening tastes tend more toward the traditional, there's not much going on there. However, if you include movies recorded within the last five to ten years, believe you me, there's a ton of ultra deep bass content.

I understand your hesitation--how low does one go? What's the limit? There are people who have happily spent tens of thousands of dollars, chasing flat frequency response to the single digits. I have more important things to do with my hard-earned stack.

Me, I'm satisfied scraping the upper teens. I'd have to spend so much more to get much deeper... not worth it to me.

I recommend that you find a way to hear one of the monster subs that can easily produce sub-20 output--hear it in your own home. See what it's like to watch a modern bass-fest, like How To Train Your Dragon, Hot Fuzz, or X-Men First Class with one of these things.

see I HAVE had that experience. I had a cs20-39+ for 5 years before I moved. So i know the feeling of subsonic 16hz notes (i had a port blocked to tune to 16).

Thats my problem, I dont want to be disapointed by the sb12 and wish I had gotten bigger. My only issue is the pb12 will look terrible...i now know this as I actually would not (not just the WAF) want what it would look like (sticking out further than my ent center)

So I am getting the piano black sb12. I am hoping it servs me right...I feel it will...cause just my florstanding speakers are prodcing a gut wobbling bass...so I know there is more to be felt and I feel this sub will do it./ and If nto..then I will return it and just go subless, until I build a dedicated room again.

Everyones input is extremly helpful and i look forward to reading this thread all day....thanks again!

Is it a nice to have, or more a "once you taste it you won't go back" situation?

I'll buck the trend a little here. Theoretically, my PC12-NSD has useful extension into the upper teens, and there's no question, for movies especially, it's nice to have all the extension you can get.

On the other hand, if my wife decided that darned water heater had to go and offered me a pair of SB12-NSDs in return, I don't think I'd lose any sleep over it.

yes to both parts of that question
:)

Dammit :)

That's funny--I just finished buying parts for a small-sealed-room, music-only system, and I envy SB12 owners because if I had it in me to buy another sub, that'd be the one I'd buy for the application.


Yeah ultimately it would be nice, with respect to SVS subs, to own all of them. :D


I've owned several smaller ported subs whose published specs claim an extension very similar to that of the SB12. I don't listen to my PC12 at high output levels (can't--I refuse to be evicted over this mess). I can tell you without reservation that the upgrade to this much more potent subwoofer introduced a night-and-day change to my movie-watching and even my music-listening experience, even at moderate output levels.


That's interesting. So you feel that even the PC12 would provide a much better HT experience than the SB12 even at moderate volumes?

I can't believe the bump would be as pronounced between the SB12 and PC12 than between my previosu 60W 8-incher and the SB12.


Oh my god, I want people to stop talking about the "threshold of audibility" issue.


Agreed, audibility is not an issue. It's a tactile sensation. You can even have a tactile-like auditory sensation, because your internal ear will vibrate at the sub frequency even if your tympan cannot respond to that.

I'm just surprised that you say it's not subtle even at moderate volumes.


As for how often recordings dip into the ultra-deep-bass region, they're getting more and more common. Granted, if your music listening tastes tend more toward the traditional, there's not much going on there. However, if you include movies recorded within the last five to ten years, believe you me, there's a ton of ultra deep bass content.


I listen more and more to instrumental music since I upgraded my entry-level bookshelves with nice towers that reproduce mids much more cleanly. But I'm a big fan of various styles of electronica. The SB12 was a revelation in that department. Before there was subtle bass lines. Now they are the main feature of the piece I'm listening. Still, for music, unless you're a big fan of Basstronics for purposes other than producing subwoofer porn, the action is above 20Hz.

As for movies... I just wish I could listen to 1) more movies 2) at interesting volumes. Until I can do that, I can't justify getting a bigger sub. Now my GF and I are talking about producing another offspring, so that will be still a few years before both toddlers will be able to stand still in front of a Disney movie at normal volumes. Also the second baby room will have to be closer to the HT, so the volume will have to be lower still :(


I understand your hesitation--how low does one go? What's the limit? There are people who have happily spent tens of thousands of dollars, chasing flat frequency response to the single digits. I have more important things to do with my hard-earned stack.


That's for sure, there is diminishing returns. It takes exponentially more energy to produce perceptible output as you go lower. It's not suprising: when you hit 0 Hz -- that is, the driver is not moving -- there's no acoustic energy at all.

The question is more like, do I spend a few hundred bucks more, and do I allow a few more cubic feet of my living room, for a sub that will go 7 Hz lower (say the SB12's 23 Hz vs the PC's 16 Hz).


I recommend that you find a way to hear one of the monster subs that can easily produce sub-20 output--hear it in your own home. See what it's like to watch a modern bass-fest, like How To Train Your Dragon, Hot Fuzz, or X-Men First Class with one of these things.

Alas I live in small canadian town and of all the people I know, I'm now the one with the baddest sub... I'm sure there are people in town with monsters but I don't know them.

Similarly, there's about no market for used subs here. So if I want to upgrade my SB12 will be a hard sale. Or I'll have to convince a friend to take it, in which case I'll have to set a friendly price too.


On the other hand, if my wife decided that darned water heater had to go and offered me a pair of SB12-NSDs in return, I don't think I'd lose any sleep over it.

The pair of SB12 would be for output? Or do you feel that combining the gentle roll-off of the SB12s, with room gain, you'll get what you want extension wise? Would you prefer two SB12s or an SB13?

Anyway. The point is moot for me, I'm not getting a bigger sub.

Just a quick question though. Are the PC stable? Can a toddler easily topple it, or is it hard to do?

I think that the SB13-Plus will do what I need it to do. I just don't want one of them in American Cherry. When will they have the black back??? I'm finding it hard to wait... I'm not a patient man, I guess...

Well the funny thing is, SVS's canadian distributor (sonicboomaudio.com) still lists the SB13 in either cherry or black oak. Maybe if you pay a premium on shipping they can do something for you. Or maybe they can exchange the SB13 for another sub with SVS and you can arrange for SVS to ship it directly to you.

It won't cost you anything to drop a line to sonicboomaudio. They have pretty much the same outstanding service as SVS. In fact I dual-mailed Sonicboomaudio and SVS at 11 pm a tuesday night and had replies in my mailbox by 7 am the next morning. SVS's reply came at 6:45 am while sonicboomaudio replied at 11:45 pm. So clearly sonicboomaudio has even better service than SVS :D

no way a toddler could topple a pc...just really nothng to grab onto or push at. the only way to topple it would be to push it towards the very top and that would be tough for a toddler

The pair of SB12 would be for output? Or do you feel that combining the gentle roll-off of the SB12s, with room gain, you'll get what you want extension wise?

Yes to the first and no to the second. My room doesn't have a lot of gain to it unfortunately, and that's a big reason why I didn't go with a sealed model.

Would you prefer two SB12s or an SB13?

Probably the two SB12s. They'd be easier to carry around and place, and they're more attractive to my eyes. AFAIK, performance would pretty much be a wash, but I could be wrong. I personally don't have much use for the smoothing aspect (only one money seat I really care about) so that isn't a major factor for me at least.


Are the PC stable? Can a toddler easily topple it, or is it hard to do?

I'd say it's reasonably stable. Most of the weight is in the bottom due to the down firing driver, and its a total of 60 pounds. My son isn't to the walking stage yet (4 months), but I've got a 50 pound dog that hasn't managed to damage anything.

just ordered the sb12 in gloss piano black!! so excited!!!

Ill keep you updated how it works in my 13x15x8 room with an open floorplan to the kitchen/dining room

I'd say it's reasonably stable. Most of the weight is in the bottom due to the down firing driver, and its a total of 60 pounds. My son isn't to the walking stage yet (4 months), but I've got a 50 pound dog that hasn't managed to damage anything.

Ok with 60 pounds mostly at the base (more for a Plus or Ultra I guess), they're probably even more stable than my tower speakers (40 lbs total each). Depends on the foots of the cylinder I guess but if you can't accidentally topple it by bumping into it, then I guess its kids-safe.

Not that I want one or anything.

just ordered the sb12 in gloss piano black!! so excited!!!

Ill keep you updated how it works in my 13x15x8 room with an open floorplan to the kitchen/dining room

Congrats dude, I'm sure you and your wife will be perfectly satisfied :) Looking forward to your review.

***

I just grabbed a Behringer DSP1124p -- a local store had it at a reasonnable price. So I guess I'll be equalizing my sub the hard way. Now I need to grab an SPL meter / mic and run REW. I know I should have done that *before* buying the BFD but at that price it's not that much of a risk.

I know the RatShack SPL Meter is the most popular, but do you guys know if the mic included with Pioneer receivers with MCACC is suitable for bass measurements? I guess I should forget that if I can't find calibration tables for that mic.

I'm just worried about my open floor plan w the connected kitchen/dining room. I think I am getting he pb12 and if the wife hates it. Oh well...lol

Gotta wait for some PayPal funds to clear then I'm pulling the trigger. I'll keep you updated!

Edit I just measured and the pb would stick out further than my entertainment centers so that's a no go. So I am going to grab the sb12. Now question...

How would a sb13-plus compare to 2 sb12's ( I'm thinking of future here as opposed to what to buy now)

If you are only off by a couple of inches, another option would be to move the entertainment center off the wall by that amount so they are flush in front. You usually can't see any differences from the back.

Doh, looks like you already ordered the SB...congrats on your decision!

I have a 20-39pc+ from 2003 with the original driver. Im contemplating upgrading to the version 12.3 driver since im upgrading the rest of my system (dont see the need for a completely new sub). I dont believe the current driver is damaged in any way but it is 9 years old now. Any thoughts?

I have a 20-39pc+ from 2003 with the original driver. Im contemplating upgrading to the version 12.3 driver since im upgrading the rest of my system (dont see the need for a completely new sub). I dont believe the current driver is damaged in any way but it is 9 years old now. Any thoughts?

An objective viewpoint:

12.1 driver
http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/subwoofer-tests-archived/6007-svs-20-39pc-20-hz-tune-db12-1-a.html

12.3 driver
http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/subwoofer-tests-archived/5767-svs-20-39pc-20-hz-tune-plus-12-3-a.html

Wow, I would have guess it to come out much closer. PB13 is such a huge unit. I was hoping that 2 of the SB13s would be close enough. I like the idea of tight bass, but my HT is in the biggest room in the house with high ceiling.

So would everyone agree that a single PB13-Ultra is the way to go versus (2) SB13-Pluses?

My first real sub was a SB12-plus in rosenut. It filled my modest living room Ht with incredible bass which included some (albeit light) chest thumping/shaking:D. I was totally satisfied, until the upgrade bug hit less than 8 months later;). I was new to HT, loved my initial experience with SVS, and just decided to go for the PC13 Ultra. Not the physical beauty of my sealed Rosie, but decidedly more dynamic for movie watching bass. My floors were quaking from the Ultra in the heaviest bass scenes. Some scenes actually made my eyeballs rattle in their sockets, something I did not experience with the SB12-plus. So if money is available and you have room and can get past the looks of the big ole thing, then I would say get the Ultra.:)

If you are only off by a couple of inches, another option would be to move the entertainment center off the wall by that amount so they are flush in front. You usually can't see any differences from the back.

Doh, looks like you already ordered the SB...congrats on your decision!

Thanks! And to neutro!

They had a piano black in the outlet with a return customer discount I couldn't pass the less than 600$ price tag up. Was a steal!!

An objective viewpoint:

12.1 driver
http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/subwoofer-tests-archived/6007-svs-20-39pc-20-hz-tune-db12-1-a.html

12.3 driver
http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/subwoofer-tests-archived/5767-svs-20-39pc-20-hz-tune-plus-12-3-a.html

Thanks, doesn't seem like a whole lot of difference except for distortion which may or may not be audible.

I called SVS this afternoon. It sounds like they will have an updated SB13-Plus coming by summer. From what I was hearing, it will be cosmetically changed to something comparible to the PB12-Plus. It will have the same finish options as the PB-Plus as well.

What I was surprised by was how much they down played the SBs abilties to be a second kin to their PB line. They left me feeling like I wouldn't be happy unless I got the PB-Ultra or at least the PB12-Plus.

What I also learned was the specs for the depth of the PC13-Ultra didn't include the 3 more inches that is needed for the grill. Additionally, that I should plan on leaving another 3 more inches for clearance in back for the amp and connections.

Like, I want one of the houses you all have to put these subs into. That like 33" out from the wall. We might as well call it 3 feet. Dang, that is big.

I think that I'm going to have to make a mock up of this sub out of cardboard and see if I can make it work (somehow)?!

If this guy at SVS dosn't believe in the SBs ability compared to the big PB... Well, I sure can't afford 3-4 of the SBs to make it equal either. I think that I would start having logics issues figuring out where to put that many SBs. I suppose a person could start stacking. :-)

I haven't seen any recent reviews on their PC line of subs. Or how it really compares to the PB13-Ultra. Going up might be my only other option.

Hmmm... I didn't know that this was going to be so hard to figure out. ROFL

Reading your description it seems to me that in the Ultra line, you have the choice between the mini-fridge or water heater form factors.

SVS always said their cyclinders are acoustically equivalent to their ported boxes. They have a smaller floor footprint but are higher. I know if I were to buy an Ultra it would be a PC because of that. Not sure if they're as easy to clean though. They seem to be covered in velvet? Is dust hard to remove from the cyclinder covering?

Nope. Just vacuum it. Only thing that could be a. Issue is pet hair.

I just found some pictures of the PC13-Ultra. It's not *that* big. I mean, a very small water heater at *most*. It's the kind of device that can be hidden in plain sight as nobody knows what it is. If I ever buy an Ultra I think I'd go for the cylinder.

If they ever do an update to the design of the PB-Ultra, they might consider expanding the width and height to make it not so deep. ;-)

So how beers does this mini-fridge hold? If it can keep stuff cold, maybe I switch it out for the fridge in the kitchen. lol

Reading your description it seems to me that in the Ultra line, you have the choice between the mini-fridge or water heater form factors.

SVS always said their cyclinders are acoustically equivalent to their ported boxes. They have a smaller floor footprint but are higher. I know if I were to buy an Ultra it would be a PC because of that. Not sure if they're as easy to clean though. They seem to be covered in velvet? Is dust hard to remove from the cyclinder covering?

I have a PC13 Ultra. The black sides do not easily collect dust and cleaning with a vacuum is simple if they do. the cylinder is significantly lighter, easier to move around, and smaller footprint. It should be equal to the box in sound quality.

I called SVS this afternoon. It sounds like they will have an updated SB13-Plus coming by summer. From what I was hearing, it will be cosmetically changed to something comparible to the PB12-Plus. It will have the same finish options as the PB-Plus as well.

What I was surprised by was how much they down played the SBs abilties to be a second kin to their PB line. They left me feeling like I wouldn't be happy unless I got the PB-Ultra or at least the PB12-Plus.

What I also learned was the specs for the depth of the PC13-Ultra didn't include the 3 more inches that is needed for the grill. Additionally, that I should plan on leaving another 3 more inches for clearance in back for the amp and connections.

Like, I want one of the houses you all have to put these subs into. That like 33" out from the wall. We might as well call it 3 feet. Dang, that is big.

I think that I'm going to have to make a mock up of this sub out of cardboard and see if I can make it work (somehow)?!

If this guy at SVS dosn't believe in the SBs ability compared to the big PB... Well, I sure can't afford 3-4 of the SBs to make it equal either. I think that I would start having logics issues figuring out where to put that many SBs. I suppose a person could start stacking. :-)

I haven't seen any recent reviews on their PC line of subs. Or how it really compares to the PB13-Ultra. Going up might be my only other option.

Hmmm... I didn't know that this was going to be so hard to figure out. ROFL

I think you're referring to the PB13 right? Instead of the PC13 as what you wrote above.

Anyway, the PB13 is indeed a large and deep box. Do make sure you're prepared for the size and have the space to put it. If the footprint is too large then consider the PC13.

In relation to output the PB13 would stomp all over the SB13. Perhaps SVS recommended the PB line to you (over the SB line) due to your requirements for bass or size of your room.

I think you're referring to the PB13 right? Instead of the PC13 as what you wrote above.

Anyway, the PB13 is indeed a large and deep box. Do make sure you're prepared for the size and have the space to put it. If the footprint is too large then consider the PC13.

In relation to output the PB13 would stomp all over the SB13. Perhaps SVS recommended the PB line to you (over the SB line) due to your requirements for bass or size of your room.

Your right, I miss typed. It should have read PB. The person that I spoke to didn't ask me about room size or use. Maybe, he was reading between the lines in our conversation.

Again, I'm going to get some cardboard and mock up the size and see how it might fit.

The lastest review I have read on the PC line was back in 2007. Anyone know of a more recent review can be found? I'll have to do some more web searches.

That is steal and a half! Locally?


Sort of, it was in Akron Ohio, I am in Pittsburgh

Picked up my 20-39pci from a guy in Morgantown WV for $150 a few months ago, it was in perfect condition!

I'm just worried about my open floor plan w the connected kitchen/dining room. I think I am getting he pb12 and if the wife hates it. Oh well...lol

Gotta wait for some PayPal funds to clear then I'm pulling the trigger. I'll keep you updated!

Edit I just measured and the pb would stick out further than my entertainment centers so that's a no go. So I am going to grab the sb12. Now question...

How would a sb13-plus compare to 2 sb12's ( I'm thinking of future here as opposed to what to buy now)


I was also told by Ed that a SB13+ is roughly equivalent to two sb12's in max output.

Two SB12's would probably give a smoother response.

I just found some pictures of the PC13-Ultra. It's not *that* big. I mean, a very small water heater at *most*. It's the kind of device that can be hidden in plain sight as nobody knows what it is. If I ever buy an Ultra I think I'd go for the cylinder.

I'm a big fan of the cylinder personally. It's an efficient, no nonsense enclosure, and my PC12-NSD looks pretty darned menacing, even if it is the entry level cylinder.

I'm also fond of the weight/portability as previously mentioned. The PC13-Ultra weighs a "mere" 90 pounds; that's 5 pounds less than the SB13-Plus and 65 pounds less than the PB13-Ultra. Further, I thought my 60 pound PC12-NSD was a heck of a lot easier to get down the stairs to my basement than my old PB10-NSD, which weighed about the same, due to the relative shapes. I would expect I could probably even get a PC13-Ultra downstairs and positioned on my own without too many expletives. PB13-Ultra? Not a chance.

even uif the two are stacked?

I was also told by Ed that a SB13+ is roughly equivalent to two sb12's in max output.

Two SB12's would probably give a smoother response.

You make a very good point. The benefits of two subs are well documented. For those who want the greater output of a SB13+, but a smoother overall bass response with minimised seat to seat variance, two SB12s would be a better solution.

even uif the two are stacked?

Output - yes. Smoother response with far less seat to seat variance - no.

What I was surprised by was how much they down played the SBs abilties to be a second kin to their PB line. They left me feeling like I wouldn't be happy unless I got the PB-Ultra or at least the PB12-Plus.

It's a matter of physics unfortunately.

The SB13 has a considerable amount of output and from 40Hz on up; IIRC, it can compare favorably to the PB12-Plu in this band. Below 40Hz though, the big ported boxes start to show their inherent advantages.

Here's a fun calculator that can perhaps help you understand the mismatch a bit better.

http://www.baudline.com/erik/bass/xmaxer.html

It only applies to sealed and IB subs, but it can give you an idea of what you would need in a sealed sub to match the output of say, a PB13-Ultra. We know that the PB13 can deliver 110.6dB at 20Hz at 2 meters ground plane, which is equivalent to 1 meter full space. We know that the SB13 has a 13.5" woofer, so now we can solve for xmax (1 way). It turns out that a SB13 would need ~51mm of xmax to match the output of the PB13 at 20Hz! That's a little over 2 inches, and calls for a peak to peak of 4 inches! Hope this helps to clarify things a little.

You make a very good point. The benefits of two subs are well documented. For those who want the greater output of a SB13+, but a smoother overall bass response with minimised seat to seat variance, two SB12s would be a better solution.

Just remember, it can be smoother if you take the time and effort to place them (and the measurements to see what's happening), but there is no guarantee that just by having two subwoofers in your room, you're accomplishing a whole lot of smoothing. For example, if you plop your SB12s down flanking your TV, you're probably not doing a whole lot of anything, but it'll look neat!

Just remember, it can be smoother if you take the time and effort to place them (and the measurements to see what's happening), but there is no guarantee that just by having two subwoofers in your room, you're accomplishing a whole lot of smoothing. For example, if you plop your SB12s down flanking your TV, you're probably not doing a whole lot of anything, but it'll look neat!

Absolutely. OmniMic or REW are among the best ways to verify the best locations. Then add a nice dollop of Audyssey XT32 which sets level and delays independently and then EQs the subs together *as a pair* and the difference is incredible.

In fact, I'd go so far as to say that this is far more important than worrying about which of two essentially similar subs is the best (not referring to any of the recent discussion here). In-room placement and the room itself have the most impact on bass quality - just plonking a big sub in an untreated or un-EQd room is a recipe for disaster. I wonder how many people who are dissatisfied with the performance of their current sub(s) have done the proper placement tests and treatments/EQ etc?

I'm fortunate soul. I've only got one seat that really matters (my wife would be satisfied with TV speakers I think...), and somehow the heavens have smiled upon me because even without Audyssey's EQ and just plopping my sub in an adjacent corner, I get a reasonably flat response with a gently rising low end from 80Hz down to 20Hz at my listening position.

Of course, my "problem" spot would be about an octave higher at 150Hz where I've got a deep null which apparently makes Audyssey think my RF-5s have the bass response of bose cubes.

I know the RatShack SPL Meter is the most popular, but do you guys know if the mic included with Pioneer receivers with MCACC is suitable for bass measurements? I guess I should forget that if I can't find calibration tables for that mic.

You could also try a Galaxy CM-140 if you can't get the Pioneer mic sorted out. You wouldn't need the Radio Shack meter if you have one of these.

Now, you guys are making my head spin.... :p

If I end up buying one of these monster PB13-Ultra, I'm not going to be able to move it around. It goes where it fits. :D

Now, you guys are making my head spin.... :p

If I end up buying one of these monster PB13-Ultra, I'm not going to be able to move it around. It goes where it fits. :D

Since I haven't seen it, can you tell me a bit more about your room: dimensions (LxWxH), if its sealed off from other rooms or open to other spaces (hallways, etc)? Finally, what do you want in terms of output levels?

Now, you guys are making my head spin.... :p

If I end up buying one of these monster PB13-Ultra, I'm not going to be able to move it around. It goes where it fits. :D

The problem with that is that 'where it fits' may be the worst possible location and give you really dreadful bass. Buying a hugely competent sub and then locating it in a bad spot is not going to give you the satisfaction you’re looking for and likely will give a boomy, uncontrolled bass, with significant peaks and nulls around the room, possibly right where you sit. At least consider a 'sub crawl' and see what your options are. Almost every time someone says "I don't have anywhere else to put it" they can find at least one alternative. At the end of the day, it's your hard-earned that's paying for your new sub, but to get the best out of it - and thus not waste that cash - I'd really try to consider the location.

If the sub you are considering is genuinely so big that there is only one spot for it in your room, it might be worth considering a smaller sub. A smaller sub in the right place will sound a lot better than a bigger sub in the wrong place. You might even be able to get *two* smaller subs in your room, which would give you greater output and a smoother response with less seat to seat variance too. Or consider SVS's cylinder subs, which have a relatively small footprint and are easier to position in a room (and a lot lighter for lugging around in a crawl!).

my new baby has shipped! will be here saturday!! saweeet!

Your right, I miss typed. It should have read PB. The person that I spoke to didn't ask me about room size or use. Maybe, he was reading between the lines in our conversation.

Again, I'm going to get some cardboard and mock up the size and see how it might fit.

The lastest review I have read on the PC line was back in 2007. Anyone know of a more recent review can be found? I'll have to do some more web searches.

This is exactly what I did before committing to the dual PB12 Pluses. It worked out well, because at some point my wife got so tired of looking at the ugly mock up cardboard boxes, that she finally was like when are you going to buy those and get those ugly boxes out of here. lol, they were ordered the next day...mouse don't fail me now!

So, make your cardboard mock up as accurate in size as possible, and make them as ugly as possible...lots of duct tape...etc, and leave them in place as long as possible. Maybe you can get duals out of the deal. Good luck!

This is exactly what I did before committing to the dual PB12 Pluses. It worked out well, because at some point my wife got so tired of looking at the ugly mock up cardboard boxes, that she finally was like when are you going to buy those and get those ugly boxes out of here. lol, they were ordered the next day...mouse don't fail me now!

So, make your cardboard mock up as accurate in size as possible, and make them as ugly as possible...lots of duct tape...etc, and leave them in place as long as possible. Maybe you can get duals out of the deal. Good luck!

Literally just spit my coffee out reading this!!!

This is exactly what I did before committing to the dual PB12 Pluses. It worked out well, because at some point my wife got so tired of looking at the ugly mock up cardboard boxes, that she finally was like when are you going to buy those and get those ugly boxes out of here. lol, they were ordered the next day...mouse don't fail me now!

So, make your cardboard mock up as accurate in size as possible, and make them as ugly as possible...lots of duct tape...etc, and leave them in place as long as possible. Maybe you can get duals out of the deal. Good luck!

Excellent advice!!! :p

This is exactly what I did before committing to the dual PB12 Pluses. It worked out well, because at some point my wife got so tired of looking at the ugly mock up cardboard boxes, that she finally was like when are you going to buy those and get those ugly boxes out of here. lol, they were ordered the next day...mouse don't fail me now!

So, make your cardboard mock up as accurate in size as possible, and make them as ugly as possible...lots of duct tape...etc, and leave them in place as long as possible. Maybe you can get duals out of the deal. Good luck!

ROFLMAO! Brilliant!

Almost every time someone says "I don't have anywhere else to put it" they can find at least one alternative.

Hmmm... I haven't even got the wife's acceptance on a spot, let alone trying to find another spot. Regardless of waht size I end up with. :p

The problem with that is that 'where it fits' may be the worst possible location and give you really dreadful bass. Buying a hugely competent sub and then locating it in a bad spot is not going to give you the satisfaction you're looking for and likely will give a boomy, uncontrolled bass, with significant peaks and nulls around the room, possibly right where you sit. At least consider a 'sub crawl' and see what your options are. Almost every time someone says "I don't have anywhere else to put it" they can find at least one alternative. At the end of the day, it's your hard-earned that's paying for your new sub, but to get the best out of it - and thus not waste that cash - I'd really try to consider the location.

If the sub you are considering is genuinely so big that there is only one spot for it in your room, it might be worth considering a smaller sub. A smaller sub in the right place will sound a lot better than a bigger sub in the wrong place. You might even be able to get *two* smaller subs in your room, which would give you greater output and a smoother response with less seat to seat variance too. Or consider SVS's cylinder subs, which have a relatively small footprint and are easier to position in a room (and a lot lighter for lugging around in a crawl!).



How much sub wire do u all have ? I mean my living room is huge and I can't imagine all the wire I would need to make the sub crawl. 10 feet at least.
And this monster is I agree a lot of money spent if its not in the right place but it's so freaking big that I can't place it anywhere else.

But I have decided to try a sun crawl this weekend.

Any recommendations for sub craw movie or song ?

This is exactly what I did before committing to the dual PB12 Pluses. It worked out well, because at some point my wife got so tired of looking at the ugly mock up cardboard boxes, that she finally was like when are you going to buy those and get those ugly boxes out of here. lol, they were ordered the next day...mouse don't fail me now!

So, make your cardboard mock up as accurate in size as possible, and make them as ugly as possible...lots of duct tape...etc, and leave them in place as long as possible. Maybe you can get duals out of the deal. Good luck!


SharpOne for President!!! NICE!!

Hi all

Just bought a used SVS PC Ultra 12 this is my first "huge sub" no real idea what i am doing but using it in a 12 by 14 foot living area off an Onkyo 1009 i have to say i really like it a lot.

I think that from every change i have made in 40 + years of buying audio this is the biggest best change i have ever done.

If you fancy a sub and think shall i risk SVS my answer is yes, doubt i will ever find one but would not mind a partner for it if i saw one lol (maybe an overkill)

I just ordered a PC12-NSD and had a tracking number within 30 minutes.
That's customer service.:)

I just placed my order for a PB12-Plus! So excited, but now I'm dreading the wait. I've had a lot of help choosing what would be best for me from Jack at SVS and I'd like to thank him once again. It will be replacing an old Onkyo htib sub that I've had for about 5 years from our old apartment. I have been slowing upgrading since we moved into our house just over 3 years ago and I have been waiting for sometime to finally get the kind of sub I want. I know I will be blown away by what the plus will bring to my living room/home theater. Thank all you guys as well for all the posts and user experiences as they helped me as well choose SVS.

How much sub wire do u all have ? I mean my living room is huge and I can't imagine all the wire I would need to make the sub crawl. 10 feet at least.

My sub 1 is connected with 15 feet of interconnect and sub 2 with 20 feet.


And this monster is I agree a lot of money spent if its not in the right place but it's so freaking big that I can't place it anywhere else.

All I can say is to repeat what I said before: you may want to consider a smaller sub with more placement options. A smaller sub in the right place will outperform a bigger sub in the wrong place. The chances of the one spot you have identified as suitable being the best place for the sub are quite small I'd think.

The most important component in your system is the room. Where you put the sub in the room will have a huge impact on its performance.


But I have decided to try a sub crawl this weekend.

Any recommendations for sub craw movie or song ?

You need anything you have that has some sustained bass on it. Movies aren't usually much use because the bass comes and goes all the time usually. HST, some of the menu screens on some movies feature a nice bass-heavy tune that repeats endlessly and they are useful. Only problem is I can't think of any right now!

Find a CD that has some nice deep, tuneful bass and if your player has a repeat function, set it to repeat a useful section over and over. Then put the sub where you usually sit and move around the room until you hear the best bass. The best bass is the smoothest, flattest, most even bass, with no boom and no obvious nulls - bass where you can easily hear the individual notes of the double bass or bass guitar and where the bass sounds tuneful and melodic. You'll know when you hear it if it's good. Then move around the room with your ears at the height of your sub when it is on the floor, listening for the best place. When you find the best place, put the sub there and you’re done. Often there are one or two places which are similar in SQ, so pick the one that is most practical. I mean, if the absolute best is right in front of the TV, then it's not really going to be sensible to put the sub there, so choose the next best.

Please note that if people see you with the sub on your chair, and you crawling around the room with your ears 18 inches off the ground, they usually call for emergency medical assistance :) So do it when nobody else is around....

How much sub wire do u all have ? I mean my living room is huge and I can't imagine all the wire I would need to make the sub crawl. 10 feet at least.

In the proper sub crawling technique, you only need as much mire as you need to place your sub in your listening position. You don't move the sub around; you set it at your listening position and put *your ears* at potential sub postions. That's why it's a crawl.

That being said, sub wire is standard RCA cable. I'm not sure expensive / audiophile sub wire will really change much. After all, low frequency signals are much easier to transmit than high frequency ones. YMMV I guess but you could use 20ft of cheap RCA cable, at least for the sub crawling part.

EDIT: my apologies to Keith, didn't read your post, but you explained sub crawling better than I did.

Please note that if people see you with the sub on your chair, and you crawling around the room with your ears 18 inches off the ground....

I think this answers my question, but I want to be 100% sure: When doing a sub-crawl, the sub should be at ear-level, not on the floor?

I'm not sure what I can use to lift (and hold) my sub (PB-13U) 4 feet off the floor.

I think this answers my question, but I want to be 100% sure: When doing a sub-crawl, the sub should be at ear-level, not on the floor?

I'm not sure what I can use to lift (and hold) my sub (PB-13U) 4 feet off the floor.

Yes. This is obviously the way to do it.

Then again I really doubt anyone with a PB-13U ever did that :p

I think placing you mini-fridge at the same place occupied by your couch would yield acceptable results :D

I think this answers my question, but I want to be 100% sure: When doing a sub-crawl, the sub should be at ear-level, not on the floor?

I'm not sure what I can use to lift (and hold) my sub (PB-13U) 4 feet off the floor.

Yes - the sub needs to go on your chair and ideally be raised up to approximate your upper body when seated. Put it on some towels or blankets etc. You should be crawling on the floor with your ears where the sub would go. IOW, you swap places with the sub.

I just ordered a PC12-NSD and had a tracking number within 30 minutes.
That's customer service.:)

Congrats! You will absolutely love the PC12, but be aware of the fact that you WILL be tempted to revisit your whole Blu-ray/CD collection to see what you've been missing. :)

I know a lot of members have been posting recently about the *bigger* subs (PB12+; PB13 Ultra, et al.), but I believe the so-called "entry level" subs (SB12, PB12, PC13, et al.) will more than satisfy the *average* bass head. :cool: Mind you, I'm not including those who have super-large rooms or those that have been afflicted with that dreadful addiction called *upgrade-itus*. ;)

Hope so as I just placed my order for a PB12-NSD 2 days ago. My first SVS and real HT sub.

Much like wmwilker, I had a tracking number with in hrs of placing my order. Fantastic CS!

Congrats to you guys on your recent purchases as well. If my room wasn't as big as it is, just over 4,600 cubic feet, I would have definitely went with the PB12-nsd instead of the plus. With Jack's help though we determined that to be the better option. I guess with a big room comes the bigger sub, as Ed informed me it's too big to ship FedEx so it's shipping through a freight company on its own pallet!!! No tracking info yet but I am in good spirits that it will find its way here quick as I live in eastern Pennsylvania, though a tracking number would ease my anxiousness a little.

Literally just spit my coffee out reading this!!!

lol, yeah, it is kind of funny. I wish I still had the pictures. They really did look bad...unlike the real thing.

Congrats to all you new owners!

Congrats to you guys on your recent purchases as well. If my room wasn't as big as it is, just over 4,600 cubic feet, I would have definitely went with the PB12-nsd instead of the plus. With Jack's help though we determined that to be the better option. I guess with a big room comes the bigger sub, as Ed informed me it's too big to ship FedEx so it's shipping through a freight company on its own pallet!!! No tracking info yet but I am in good spirits that it will find its way here quick as I live in eastern Pennsylvania, though a tracking number would ease my anxiousness a little.

My room is only 12 x 15 so I should no problem with the NSD. I currently have a Velodyne ULD 12 that does a pretty good job in this room but I'm certain I'll have much more LFE next week :D

For those of you who would like an amazing demo disc to show off your SVS sub, I would HIGHLY RECOMMEND the film/documentary The Art of Flight. It is a snowboarding film from 2011 that took two years to make and cost $2 million dollars. The audio is absolutely incredible, with mesmerizing LFE material from beginning to end. The PQ is also reference quality with unrivaled cinematography, colors, contrast, details, and depth. I just submitted the following review on this title to the BLU-RAY PQ THREAD:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=21727231&postcount=19177

My room is only 12 x 15 so I should no problem with the NSD. I currently have a Velodyne ULD 12 that does a pretty good job in this room but I'm certain I'll have much more LFE next week :D

You definitely won't have any problems...only OVERKILL (which is OKAY:)).

For those of you who would like an amazing demo disc to show off your SVS sub, I would HIGHLY RECOMMEND the film/documentary The Art of Flight. It is a snowboarding film from 2011 that took two years to make and cost $2 million dollars. The audio is absolutely incredible, with mesmerizing LFE material from beginning to end. The PQ is also reference quality with unrivaled cinematography, colors, contrast, details, and depth. I just submitted the following review on this title to the BLU-RAY PQ THREAD:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=21727231&postcount=19177

Thanks for the review of this title. I for sure want to check it out. BTW, did you buy it or rent it...and from where? I check the local BB, Target, B&N, etc...and can't find it locally. Guess an Amazon order might be the best.

Thanks for the review of this title. I for sure want to check it out. BTW, did you buy it or rent it...and from where? I check the local BB, Target, B&N, etc...and can't find it locally. Guess an Amazon order might be the best.

I found the best deal right here:

http://www.spinnakerextreme.com/the-art-of-flight-dvd-and-blu-ray-by-brain-farm.html

You can also do a Google for "coupons for spinnakerextreme" and get a coupon to use (I can't remember how much it was but I think I paid around $25 total, which isn't bad considering most online stores are charging $30).

I found the best deal right here:

http://www.spinnakerextreme.com/the-art-of-flight-dvd-and-blu-ray-by-brain-farm.html

You can also do a Google for "coupons for spinnakerextreme" and get a coupon to use (I can't remember how much it was but I think I paid around $25 total, which isn't bad considering most online stores are charging $30).

Thanks!! Just ordered it :D

Thanks!! Just ordered it :D

:cool:

I'll look forward to hearing from you after you view (and HEAR) it!

Ya know I think the waiting and the research is the best part of all this crazy hobby. That's what leads to up grade itis. I can't wait till delivery tomorrow but this feeling is the best. We get soooo excited haha.

What upgrade will be next. I'm sure I will end up upgrading

Edit. Sb12 just arrived :)

All hooked up. Playing live free or die hard. And.... WOW!,,


Anyone who has doubts this thing can fill my 13x17x8 room is crazy. I have had a 20-39cs+ in a 12x12 room and this little sub comes VERY close to it. You can tell the lowest of notes ( ring drop in beginning of LoTR) aren't as loud. But I am way more than happy!!

This thing is siiiiicccckk

Glad you're satisfied with what you got. Also glad to see that even knowing what you're missing (from a large cylinder) you still think it's that good. As I never heard the big ones, I was kind of wondering if I made a mistake ordering the SB12. Doesn't seem so, considering the difficulty of fitting a larger sub in my living room.

Glad you're satisfied with what you got. Also glad to see that even knowing what you're missing (from a large cylinder) you still think it's that good. As I never heard the big ones, I was kind of wondering if I made a mistake ordering the SB12. Doesn't seem so, considering the difficulty of fitting a larger sub in my living room.

The SB12 is indeed a potent little sub. I too was surprised by it considering that I own a PB12plus. I now have two SB12nsd (stacked) along with my PB12plus in my main system

How well do you guys think a sb13-plus does against a velodyne optimum-12?

The SB12 is indeed a potent little sub. I too was surprised by it considering that I own a PB12plus. I now have two SB12nsd (stacked) along with my PB12plus in my main system

Eventually i will get a second. But def is not needed. But wanted :)

How well do you guys think a sb13-plus does against a velodyne optimum-12?

pretty much no contest in terms of output. The SVS will push more air with larger driver and the added efficiencies of a larger cabinet. I had considered the Opt12 myself but it really seemed like a lightweight in comparison (literally also...it's half the weight).

The Velo is not a bad sub but it's a more compact solution so it will lose the any dragrace against the SVS. The Velo does sound clean though, it didn't really hit as hard as I liked when I auditioned it. I wish they made a Optimum 15, that would be more interesting to me.

pretty much no contest in terms of output. The SVS will push more air with larger driver and the added efficiencies of a larger cabinet. I had considered the Opt12 myself but it really seemed like a lightweight in comparison (literally also...it's half the weight).

The Velo is not a bad sub but it's a more compact solution so it will lose the any dragrace against the SVS. The Velo does sound clean though, it didn't really hit as hard as I liked when I auditioned it. I wish they made a Optimum 15, that would be more interesting to me.

K . how about against the uls-15?

K . how about against the uls-15?

Ended up ordering the sb13-plus. Just seems like a better all around product for the money. I've always liked svs and consider them a step above the other id's as far as r&d and quality. Great service as well. I talked to Ed the other day and i felt like it was hard to get him off the phone! Lol! Even after all these years, they treat you like your their only customer. Just so totally impressive.

Anyone who follows me knows that I've been on a loooong sub journey so lets hope this is the end. So many fantastic subs available, but subs are strange. They are very personal. Im comin from a FV15HP which is just a monster and sounded very good. Too bad it was just too big for my needs.

Ended up ordering the sb13-plus. Just seems like a better all around product for the money. I've always liked svs and consider them a step above the other id's as far as r&d and quality. Great service as well. I talked to Ed the other day and i felt like it was hard to get him off the phone! Lol! Even after all these years, they treat you like your their only customer. Just so totally impressive.

Anyone who follows me knows that I've been on a loooong sub journey so lets hope this is the end. So many fantastic subs available, but subs are strange. They are very personal. Im comin from a FV15HP which is just a monster and sounded very good. Too bad it was just too big for my needs.

Interesting. I'm curious as to how you feel the two compare in tightness and overall SQ. Post back once you have everything dialed in.

Forgot to mention my sb12 came packaged with a bnib 1 meter svs connect cable. Is this standard? If not was a great surprise!!

Also woke up this morning with a grin on my face. I remembered I had a svs sub in my HT hahah

Forgot to mention my sb12 came packaged with a bnib 1 meter svs connect cable. Is this standard? If not was a great surprise!!

Also woke up this morning with a grin on my face. I remembered I had a svs sub in my HT hahah

It isn't universal if it is the norm, I got my PB12-NSD last week and received no cable.

you lucked out if you got the cable for free. Normally you have to pay for it.

Sweet!!

Odd. I've received a free 3 meter cable with all three of my SVS subs.

It isn't universal if it is the norm, I got my PB12-NSD last week and received no cable.

No cable came with my new PB12 NSD.

Interesting. I'm curious as to how you feel the two compare in tightness and overall SQ. Post back once you have everything dialed in.

i will try to, but the FV15HP had to be shoved in a corner and turned sideways. that was the only position for it in my room and the main reason i sold it. ill have better location options with the sb13 so it wont be a apples to apples comparo. that being said, the fv15 was very clean sounding even with the odd placement so I am excited to hear the sb13 as well. it has big shoes to fill...