What surprises me is that they terminated production of the PB12 Ultras before the new 13s hit the market. There's no way I can go without a sub in my new system for four months (or more) and the lack of any high-end SVS solution means I'm forced to go elsewhere.

What surprises me is that they terminated production of the PB12 Ultras before the new 13s hit the market. There's no way I can go without a sub in my new system for four months (or more) and the lack of any high-end SVS solution means I'm forced to go elsewhere.

You make a good point but with the new ultras on the horzion, SVs moviing to build drivers in house and the fact the plus drivers where close to old ultras I sure sales would have slumped.

What surprises me is that they terminated production of the PB12 Ultras before the new 13s hit the market. There's no way I can go without a sub in my new system for four months (or more) and the lack of any high-end SVS solution means I'm forced to go elsewhere.

That's why I won't sell my ultra/2 till the arrival of the PB13s

To all those that are CRYING about not being able to buy an Ultra....stop it.

No one feels sorry for you because you have to wait a few months to drop $2k on a subwoofer.

When I read rockem's post I thought of 2 quotes..

"We came, we saw, we kicked it's ASS!"

and

"You're goin to eat lightning and crap thunder!"


Don't know why. LOL

But seriously, everyone is anxious and wants a new toy. I get like this every year when the new models for cars are being talked about and introduced. I cannot wait to hear more about the 2008 line up changes!!!

The wait will be over sooner rather than later! :D

very well said

Oh, I'll whine, rockem. I'll whine.

I WANT MY SUBWOOFER NOWWWWWWWWWWWW!

Hi all Just got my PB12 NSD today I'm quite happy with the looks and performance here are some pics:
:p
]

So which movie did you watch first?

I think WOTW should the the first movie you put in.

There is just so much content that will work the hell out of any subwoofer.

Lucky bastards.

So which movie did you watch first?

I tested "Flight of the pheonix" from the sandstorm chapter.

The previous reigning giant of LFE was Titan A.E. followed by WotW (imo).

When I didnt even have the gain turned up past 1/3 and overall volume wasn't too loud n the woofer looked to be at its limits (no portnoise or audible artifacts to report though) and fairly strong output. ;)

For those who can pick this dvd up in the bargain bin, i would suggest it, great demo material.

I just pulled the trigger on a pb10-nsd. I was at barretts home theater and listened to the klipsch rw12d and although it was nice it's $699. I then went to my brother's house and listened to his pb10-isd. For the money I'm sold on SVS. I'm excited as this is replacing a dayton sub-120.

I'll have to let you know how my switch-a-roo goes. My wedding is 2 months away and my fiancee hasn't been too happy that i've been looking at subs so i'm going to switch it out and not tell her. If she doesn't notice by sight hopefully she'll notice when we watch a movie and she feels it. hehehe

Chris.

What would be the signs/symptoms in dual not co-located PB12/+2's?

Drop in normal SPL would be the first thing I'd think of.....get out the SPL meter and compare the numbers with what you used to get...

Turn of the main speakers and just listen to the subs. Listen for any bad sounds.

Anybody feeding a PB10 off a sound card sub/LFE output? I've got an Audigy2 that's going to be driving a 2.1 system just attempting to narrow down what my sub potentials are going to be. I _think_ that the Creative cards do a decent job of handling subwoofer crossover but I've never verified that.

The audigy2's do a great job with bass. I loved my desktop for that reason. Killer response from a computer soundcard. You'll love it.

Just pulled the trigger on a PB12-NSD/2 to go along with the Rocket 850s, 200 and 300s I ordered yesterday. Guess how excited I am?!

Schwing!!!

Just pulled the trigger on a PB12-NSD/2 to go along with the Rocket 850s, 200 and 300s I ordered yesterday. Guess how excited I am?!

not very? :rolleyes:

Hello would you think the SVS PB12-NSD/2 would be too much for my room?
Room is 11X19 and is in the bottom floor of a townhouse.

I'm going to get my PB10 replacement woofer/3.0 set svs bookie :D tomorrow due to cosmetic issues on the cone of the driver and decided to pull the driver now and take a snapshot of the woofer,amp and enclosure. Just to reduce the hassle tomorrow and get it shipped asap.

continue...........

The woofer was heavily built and freakin heavy. I pulled the driver on the 1st PB10 to re-seat the wires to the conectors and man was it a pain to get it back and screwed to the enclosure.

Hello would you think the SVS PB12-NSD/2 would be too much for my room?
Room is 11X19 and is in the bottom floor of a townhouse.
Bassheads will say there is no thing as too much...

I've got a PB10 in a room about that size (open to the rest of the bottom floor of a townhouse). Within the room, I've gotten up to 105 dBs (at listening position, ref - 6dB for the sub) on the Darla scene in Finding Nemo, which is more than enough for me. If you like things loud, I think a PB12 alone would do the trick, but it depends on how low and loud you want to go (and how much insulation is between you and your neighbor).

Bassheads will say there is no thing as too much...

I've got a PB10 in a room about that size (open to the rest of the bottom floor of a townhouse). Within the room, I've gotten up to 105 dBs (at listening position, ref - 6dB for the sub) on the Darla scene in Finding Nemo, which is more than enough for me. If you like things loud, I think a PB12 alone would do the trick, but it depends on how low and loud you want to go (and how much insulation is between you and your neighbor).
I like alot of bass but I was thinking NSD/2 might just be too much for that room since its in a townhouse. I saw a practically brand new NSD/2 for similar price as the PB12 but it looks like it will just be too much. Thanks

I like alot of bass but I was thinking NSD/2 might just be too much for that room since its in a townhouse. I saw a practically brand new NSD/2 for similar price as the PB12 but it looks like it will just be too much. Thanks
For the same price, then by all means go for it. It'll be nice to have if you ever get a larger place. I didn't want to convince you that you shouldn't get it, just that you may not need all of it.

I like alot of bass but I was thinking NSD/2 might just be too much for that room since its in a townhouse. I saw a practically brand new NSD/2 for similar price as the PB12 but it looks like it will just be too much. Thanks

wagsgt, I recently purchased the SVS PB12-NSD/2 (about 2 months ago). I put it in my basement home theater which has a 7ft drop ceiling and is approximately 23ft x 18 ft (drywall walls). I like to watch movies loud too. This bass has absolutely no problem filling the room (the sub volume is at about 50% too). I'm sitting on solid concrete and I can FEEL the bass. When I'm upstairs the bass shakes the windows. It has no problem recreating that heavy bass that is typically only experienced in theaters... a real treat. I LOVE this sub woofer but I suspect that it would be overkill by most peoples standards/needs. Keep in mind that this is also a huge/heavy sub as well. Personally, I have not heard the PB12 so I can't comment there, but I will say that I probably could have been just as happy with something a little less powerful... that's me though. Regardless... I have no regrets :)!!!!!Good luck!

I'm wondering if anyone in here has any opinions/experience with the difference between the regular cylinder series subs and the plus series. Specifically the 20-39 models. The PCi is $600 and the PC-Plus is $900. Is the plus really worth that 50% more?

I'd say it depends on the size of your room and how loud you want your sub to play.

I haven't had both cylinders, but I do have a PC+ and a PB12. SVS says their boxes and cylindars sound alike. They certainly sound very much alike to me 99% of the time, but my 16-46PC-Plus plays deeper and a bit louder if pushed to its limits.

The Plus series has a more powerful amplifier and a more robust driver. It also has variable tuning points. All this translates into very worthwhile benefits to demanding users, but may not be worth the price difference to many others, especially those with average sized rooms and moderate listening habits.

Email SVS to get a definitive answer. They know their products better than we do. Tell them your room size, placement options and listening preferences. My experience has been that they are very helpful and honest.

Let's just assume that I'm of the mind that you can never have too much output or extension. I'm more interested in the concept of whether, in any given room size, the plus is worth 50% more dollars than the PCi. I happen to have a large room now, but I may be moving soon and I'm not sure what my new place will be like. It's very hard to come to a conclusion on this question, based on the info provided on the SVS site, as they don't seem to list max SPL numbers anywhere. Freq response graphs are nice, but they don't tell the whole story.

Maybe thinking of it this way would be better. What if I had an essentially infinite space to fill? Would I be better off buying n*2 PC-Plus cylinders, or n*3 PCi's for the same price?

Let's just assume that I'm of the mind that you can never have too much output or extension.

Maybe thinking of it this way would be better. What if I had an essentially infinite space to fill? Would I be better off buying n*2 PC-Plus cylinders, or n*3 PCi's for the same price?
I would wait and get 2 new PC Ultras! :)

I'd say 2 PC-Pluses.

In fact, given everything you just said, I'd recommend you invest in a Plus and not look back. People rarely regret buying something better than they need, but frequently wish they'd spent a little more when something falls short.

As for SPL, from what I've gleaned, the Plus is likely to give you 3-6dB more output than a comparable PCi. That translates directly into 50-100% more acoustical power, since, theoretically, two co-located identical subs will produce 6dB more output.

Unfortunately, it seems to be hard to get comparative data from a reliable independent source using the same testing criteria for both. And both have new, improved drivers, so older tests aren't definitive either.

I would wait and get 2 new PC Ultras! :)

his question would still apply ...

2 new ultras?
3 PC pluses?
5-6 PCi's?

I would wait and get 2 new PC Ultras! :)
Well, yes, that even a better option if you're not in a hurry and cost isn't a detriment. :)

his question would still apply ...

2 new ultras?
3 PC pluses?
5-6 PCi's?

Exactly. I guess what I really want to know is sort of a decibels per dollar number :) Which is the best value? Most grocery store shelf tags tell me cents per ounce, why shouldn't I expect the same from my subwoofer purchase? :p

Well, yes, that even a better option if you're not in a hurry and cost isn't a detriment. :) And the answer is likely to remain, fewer of the better version is probably going to yield better results... but not by an earthshaking ( :rolleyes: ) margin.

I have 2 of the original CS Ultras. Amazing speakers, even if I am selling them ;)

I'd say 2 PC-Pluses.

In fact, given everything you just said, I'd recommend you invest in a Plus and not look back. People rarely regret buying something better than they need, but frequently wish they'd spent a little more when something falls short.

That is a good point.

As for SPL, from what I've gleaned, the Plus is likely to give you 3-6dB more output than a comparable PCi. That translates directly into 50-100% more acoustical power, since, theoretically, two co-located identical subs will produce 6dB more output.

May I ask where you gleaned this info?

... Most grocery store shelf tags tell me cents per ounce, why shouldn't I expect the same from my subwoofer purchase? :p
Good luck with that! :D

haloo, it's easier to get $/SPL ... but $/SQ cannot be measured, it is up to your ears actually.

...May I ask where you gleaned this info?
You can ask, but I can't answer. At least not definitively, or I would have mentioned the source. ;)

I've just been in sub research mode for two or three years and picked these impressions over that time. That includes independent reviews, dozens of forums and more emails than I care to admit to Ron, Tom, Erik, and Ed. Not at all scientific, just what I've assimilated, rightly or wrongly.

haloo, it's easier to get $/SPL ... but $/SQ cannot be measured, it is up to your ears actually.

I'm fairly aware of that, and that's why I'm on this forum. I'm basically committed to an internet dealer, obviously due to the value they offer. I really don't want to go through the cost and hassle of a return, so I'm just trying to make the best decision up front, based on other users' educated opinions.

You can ask, but I can't answer. At least not definitively, or I would have mentioned the source. ;)

I've just been in sub research mode for two or three years and picked these impressions over that time. That includes independent reviews, dozens of forums and more emails than I care to admit to Ron, Tom, Erik, and Ed. Not at all scientific, just what I've assimilated, rightly or wrongly.

2 or 3 years?!?!? Now that's dedication! With the speed at which new products are introduced, do you think you will ever decide what you want? ;)

Oh, I decided and bought one a year ago, then added a second a few days ago. I just like (to try) to keep up. :)

Oh, I decided and bought one a year ago, then added a second a few days ago. I just like (to try) to keep up. :)

Which sub(s) did you end up with?

I totally understand what your asking............
Ok ..........here is a scenario.....You buy a 20-39Plus you spend $900 bucks.....
Now did you get 50% more base over the $600 20-39Pci..?
Or would it be better to get two 20-39Pci's>>>???????? For just 3 hundred more than a 20-39 Plus.
This is normally how I shop....
Under (normal) circumstances Id say go the middle ground.........
That would put you in a plus........ Because (Normally) the lowest thing is kinda crap middle is best bang for buck and best.......again (normally) you pay twice the price but only get a 5 or 10% gain for you money........
But in this case were talking SVS.......(GOOD Quality no matter what you get) In other words (crap) Does NOT apply here!
Personally you cant go wrong with the plus or the PCI.
I wish there were some hard numbers out there.........

I haven't had both cylinders, but I do have a PC+ and a PB12. SVS says their boxes and cylinders sound alike. They certainly sound very much alike to me 99% of the time, but my 16-46PC-Plus plays deeper and a bit louder if pushed to its limits.

Judging from this (99% of the time) statement as an example. And looking at price point.
I'd say go with one 20-39 PCi and if you think you need a little more you can allways add a second 2 20-39 PCi
And if you for some reason feel you made a mistake ......Well return it and get the next thing up..
If you think space will be an issue go for the 20-39 Plus.
In the long run YOU win no matter what..

I went from a PB-12NSD to a 16-46+

one gets a plus for some different reasons.....we want more extension from the better woofer and for me it was the triple ports that it uses which reduces chuffing.

The single port PCI will chuff more if pushed hard...but most people won't push it as hard as I wanted to push my pb-12nsd...Thus I went with the 16-46+ that I can push and it will dig....I'm still going to get duals anyways.

Moral of the story is you get what you pay for.

I feel the extra $300+ that I spent to get my 16-46+ was well worth it when compared to my pb-12nsd...

Dual 20-39PCi's would be one hell of a set up...

Dual 20-39+ would be even better :D

You cannot lose either way really

I'm wondering if anyone in here has any opinions/experience with the difference between the regular cylinder series subs and the plus series. Specifically the 20-39 models. The PCi is $600 and the PC-Plus is $900. Is the plus really worth that 50% more?



PLUS you live in MI which isn't that far away from the SVS factory.

If you really wanted to you could have them set up a demo for you and make a trip one day. It is well worth it.

personally I think the extra money is well spent.....

But it comes down to your budget...

$1200 spent on Dual 20-39PCI would walk all over a single 20-39+ for $900

If you can swing that....thats what I'd do....

Unless you can swing $1800 and get dual 20-39+....

You know SVS gives a dual sub discount so those 1200 and 1800 figures are even a little high....

Or you could see my listing in the Speakers for Sale forum ;)

Seriously though, if you can go see them then do.

Or you could see my listing in the Speakers for Sale forum ;)

Seriously though, if you can go see them then do.

What driver is in those? Isn't the original ultra driver about 3 generations old now?

Er... no. It's the latest driver version of the Ultras. I litterally have the last CS Ultra to roll off the line ;)

Er... no. It's the latest driver version of the Ultras. I litterally have the last CS Ultra to roll off the line ;)

Oh. It looks like they show different drivers for the CS-Ultra compared to the PC-Ultra.

CS-Ultra (https://svsound.com/products-sub-cyl-csultra1.cfm#driver)
PC-Ultra (https://svsound.com/products-sub-cyl-pcultra.cfm#driver)

Or do they just not have the pics updated on the site?

Which sub(s) did you end up with?Sorry to be so long. Went away to listen to my subs for awhile, not just discuss them! :)

I did this in an unusual way. I got a 16-46 PC-Plus first. Where it was going, a cylinder was ideal and the 16-46+ has the extension and versatility I wanted with its optional 12Hz tuning. It has more than enough output for the way I listen in my 2400 cu. ft. room. Truthfully, a 16-46 PCi probably would have been more than sufficient, but I wanted the Plus's extra reserve and tuning options.

However, I learned long ago that my room benefits significantly from two non co-located subs. The room has severe acoustical problems, and a second sub greatly smoothes out the response curve while offering a modest increase in headroom (which is always desirable, if not necessarily needed).

I'd been using an old M&K 15" passive sub for that purpose, and it ameliorated the basic room induced problem, but with "only" 200 watts, the amp was stressed occasionally, and I continued to have an urge for something "better." Moreover, I was a bit disappointed with the 16-46 PC+ in 12 Hz tuning in my room without some reinforcement in the 20-30Hz range, which the M&K does not provide. I ultimately returned my 16-46 in 16Hz tuning, which is certainly nothing to sneeze at, but not what I wanted in my heart.

I didn't have space for another cylinder, but could squeeze a box in under the counter where the M&K was positioned. So when SVS had their overstock reduction sale on white NSD's (the color I wanted) and I found one in B-stock to boot, I "had to" go for it. At less than half the price of my 16-46, it was just right for the benefit I expected.

SVS assured me that the PB12-NSD would be a good match for my PC+ (one of the last made with the 12.2 driver) and that proved to be correct. It also lets me run the PC+ in 12Hz tune, yet still retain full impact above 20Hz. Any difference in maximum output is largely offset by the PB12-NSD being essentially "near-field", less half the distance from my listening position than the PC+. I'm unlikely to ever push it to its limits, so the "chuffing" that can occur if one does is unlikely to be a problem.

So far, this seems to be working out great for me, but obviously isn't the solution for everyone. In less difficult rooms, a single Ultra for about the same cost might be a better solution.

FWIW, I also added a Buttkicker LFE (cement floors, which limit any sub's tactile response) and a SMS-1 (resulting in much cleaner sound) before upgrading the second sub.

Excellent write up!!!

So you are running a 16-46+ with a PB-12NSD

Can you do some of these tests that I made....I'd love to see your numbers!!

Yeah, Brad, I intend to do that. I ordered both Flight of the Phoenix and JPIII, and will try to do the tests first chance I get after they arrive.

Oh. It looks like they show different drivers for the CS-Ultra compared to the PC-Ultra.

CS-Ultra (https://svsound.com/products-sub-cyl-csultra1.cfm#driver)
PC-Ultra (https://svsound.com/products-sub-cyl-pcultra.cfm#driver)

Or do they just not have the pics updated on the site?


Hm... I don't know. Good question! I know beyond a shadow of a doubt my CS Ultra was the last. Whether that means that it had the "old" or the second gen driver, I don't know.

Sweet....you really have the best of both worlds.....the PB-12NSD is a monster for 20hz and up....and with the 16-46+ being in 12hz mode you should be set for anything you throw at your system!

Sweet....you really have the best of both worlds.....the PB-12NSD is a monster for 20hz and up....and with the 16-46+ being in 12hz mode you should be set for anything you throw at your system!
Thanks. That's the hope, at least. So far, it's met all my expectations.

I think my Plus/2 bottomed out last night. I heard a loud distorted bass sound. It happened early in the movie. Maybe I turned it on too high. The movie was the Cleaner. I thought I popped the thing, but the Plus/2 survived. I guess it's time for the new ultra plus/2.

Check your calibration on that.

It takes a hell of a lot to bottom a Plus/2...

I think my Plus/2 bottomed out last night. I heard a loud distorted bass sound. It happened early in the movie. Maybe I turned it on too high. The movie was the Cleaner. I thought I popped the thing, but the Plus/2 survived. I guess it's time for the new ultra plus/2.
Check this out.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10404437&&#post10404437

Hmmmm....I think we need a WATERFALL Graph of this movie :D

`preorders in May'?

Since tomorrow is May 1st how long til we see some Freeq charts,etc (Tom,Ron,Ed)?? :confused: :confused: :confused:

it's May 1 here ...

PICTURES!
PICTURES!
PICTURES!
PICTURES!

Just ordered A piano black +2 from B-Stock for $1149.00. It is actually brand new,however the base plate is in textured black, Not a big deal for me in a dedicated room. Now I have a Klipsch RSW-15(cherry) for sale . Will probably list it on the for sale link. Check it out.

Just ordered A piano black +2 from B-Stock for $1149.00. It is actually brand new,however the base plate is in textured black, Not a big deal for me in a dedicated room. Now I have a Klipsch RSW-15(cherry) for sale . Will probably list it on the for sale link. Check it out.


too funny... I was just looking at that page... :) congrats... its a mean ass sub..
Hope you enjoy it buddy....


I am now in the market for a used PB12-Ultra if anyone is getting rid of one...

Let me know !!!! Otherwise I might just buy a PB12-plus glossy

Did I dreamed that there was a PB-13 preorder thread this morning? Where is it?

Did I dreamed that there was a PB-13 preorder thread this morning? Where is it?

It got erased, either due product info being posted or Spyboy trolling and stirring the pot.

Bill3508

Some of the info from that thread is now on the "Poof" thread.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=842640

What thread? ;)

THEY JUST TOOK DOWN MY OFFICAL ULTRA THREAD


WE ARE NOT ALLOWED TO TALK ABOUT THE ULTRA HERE.


SO where do we want to go talk about it ...the SPOT, the SHACK??

Spot has some good info, but it just doesn't get the traffic.

Bill3508

This is laughable. Hmm lets see JL has super amounts of hype, dealers posting and not reveiling that they are dealers. Oh and the statements that the fathoms have no rvials under a vary wide price point. JL gets have there staff answer marketing type questions and oh lets not forget the freaky factory tour. I not made a JL and I have lots of respect for them but whats up with the hypocritical . What the hell is going on here? Did one of Spenser or someone feel that we where not being productive. wow I'll see you guys at the spot or shack hopefully. maybe it is time for svs to think about a forum. bummer so much for equality.

I just went and became a "Spotty". Tom V frequently posts good inside info there. I'm sure I'll run into some of you guys there.

Why delete it? Just post the reason for the dispute and lock the thread!

I haven't frequented this forum for awhile, so I'm baffled why the anti SVS stand from the forum management, did I miss something?
Yeah I also noticed multiple JL and HSU threads, so why is the new Ultra is "banned" ?

I just went and became a "Spotty". Tom V frequently posts good inside info there. I'm sure I'll run into some of you guys there.

I'll see you there.lol weeze and ggunel and lots of other guys are over there.

I still wanna know why they had to delete the freaking thread.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=842819

Hello...

Because AVS is not about post marketing, we ask that all the hype and what have you be taken elsewhere on the new SVS Ultra sub that will be out some time in the future.

This site is first and foremost for support...Not pre-sales on products.

SVS should have their own forum site for their products and I would be happy to help them with it if needed. However, we can not allow for the continued direct marketing here on AVS as it again has gone further than it should. (We have no thread to step in for some time...but I am sorry to say it seems we needed to again.)

Thank you kindly.

__________________
David Bott
AVS Forum Admin
Do you know about the HT Guys? - CLICK!

Can anyone explain why these threads get deleted? I really don't understand the censorship here, and it's kind of troubling. I thought this was a place to exchance information.

Can anyone explain why these threads get deleted? I really don't understand the censorship here, and it's kind of troubling. I thought this was a place to exchance information.


Unfornetly its not a eqaul as we woul all like I would reccomend going over to hometheaterspot and clicking on svs section to find more info about the ultra.

OK, so I didn't see the post above my last one before putting it up. This censorship seems totally bogus, and the only explanation I can come up with is MONEY. SVS is not a paying advertiser here right? If it isn't that it must be some kind of personal vendetta.

So what are these spot and shack sites you guys mention? I think I need to find a new place to frequent.

halo0 heres the home theater spot website

http://www.hometheaterspot.com/fusionbb/index.php?

heres the home theater shack website

http://www.hometheatershack.com/

HomeTheaterSpot.com and HomeTheaterShack.com.

Guys, to quote craigsub, there are no less than 9 threads on the main page
with SVS in the title.

Just keep the Ultra talk HERE, in the SVS thread and everybody should
be happy.

Here's a place:
http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htf/showthread.php?t=255768&highlight=svs

threads get deleted when u enter board `areas' where most discussions in the list of topics is on a single product or company. Hence the `official threads'. THat leads to marketing if it is `everywhere'. Only the HD /Blu-Ray board is exempt from that since there aren't that many companies in the fray. THERE is some MAJOR marketing on those boards ....

My guess......

WOW I did not think starting that thread would cause such a uproar. I was just exited that the product page was up. Believe me If I was trying to sell the ultra I would own one not just my PB-10. I guess Freedom of Speech comes only with advertising $. Oh well just have to find another forum to discuss the ultra.

Why don't they just delete the "offending" posts with a reference to the rule broken....????
(I do understand if they don't have the time to micromanage to that degree.)

The remainder of the thread probably has some useful information that other posters have put effort into writing.

Assuming a flood of a brand name isn't overwhelming the topic list, it shouldn't be a problem.

Ah well, life goes on, and you can never please everyone :D

Just put the Ultra stuff here or go to the SPOT. SVS actually posts over there to talk to us about it so it is nice.

Clearly they will not even answer why HSU and JL threads are allowed and SVS isn't...

Oh well....lets behave so we can still post...

Guys, to quote craigsub, there are no less than 9 threads on the main page
with SVS in the title.

Just keep the Ultra talk HERE, in the SVS thread and everybody should
be happy.


I agree to a point with using an official SVS thread, but the purpose of a thread is to be a more focused. This thread is a "general" thread.

An analogy would be to create a Official "wiring" topic. No topics/posts involving wiring would be allowed otherwise.... Kinda ruins the ability to ask a pointed question say about proper RCA connection or HDMI cabling, no? Also, some who don't visit daily and merely glance over the new topics, would miss some potentially good information. It would force them to read every possible "general" topic since their last visit to see if there is some interesting news. Search can't be used since they don't know what "new" things to search on.... chicken and egg type problem there.

Once again... no solution pleases everyone. ;)

Before I say anything further to get myself banned, I'm going to elect to "self-ban" myself for a while until the bad taste in my mouth passes.

See ya! :)

I can tell you what this looks like from the viewpoint of an outsider. I frequent hometheaterforum.com mostly and here less frequently. There, if you want to ask a question, you either find an ongoing thread about subs (SVS or otherwise) and ask a question and receive good information, or, start a new thread and ask a direct question . There are pros and cons to AVS "official whatever-it-is" threads. The pro is that people here seem more knowledgeable (mostly) but the con is that members here are more fanatic about every freaking detail about said topic, product, etc. and can bog down the information gathering process, hell, look through the "official Denon 2807" thread and tell me YOU can find what you are looking for without going blind!
I can agree that this ongoing policing here reeks of double standards and bad blood towards certain manufacturers but until you can start your own forum, this is what you get, get over it, post in the "official SVS sub" thread, or come see the other forum I mentioned, we are all pro SVS and I doubt you'll get banned unless you start trashing this forum there.

The "upcoming products" thread ban is just ridiculous. Take a look at the receiver forum. There has been a thread up on top for weeks about the upcoming Onkyo receivers that is so hyped it is not funny. Those receivers have not even been received by merchants yet, and nobody knows when they will! If you delete every thread started about a product that doesn't exist yet, half of the content here would disappear in an instant.

Just put the Ultra stuff here or go to the SPOT. SVS actually posts over there to talk to us about it so it is nice.

Clearly they will not even answer why HSU and JL threads are allowed and SVS isn't...

Oh well....lets behave so we can still post...
this isn't that difficult to understand....threads with direct links to placing orders are not allowed. such behavior hasn't occurred in the HSU and JL threads you are referencing. what makes it even more egregious is that no one outside SVS has ever seen, tested, or heard this sub yet.

creating threads with direct links to placing orders + the obligitory SVS hype = deleted threads.

i for one want to keep talking about this sub here, so let's keep it to the official SVS thread, OK?

Thats true, I subscribe to the "when in the hell are we going to get the new Denon receivers" thread and sheesh people do something else until they come out already and stop crying.
I don't think they are banning all upcoming product threads, just the one company we shouldn't mention but can mention others ban. It is a real double standard but I can see how crowded these threads would become if every product got their own "official" thread but to be fair, consolidate the JL Fathom 112 and 113 threads if your not going to allow specific" that company we're not supposed to mention" models threads.
OK, I just saw the above post, yeah bad form to post a link to buy I suppose, as always, few people F'ed it up for the majority.

The "upcoming products" thread ban is just ridiculous. Take a look at the receiver forum. There has been a thread up on top for weeks about the upcoming Onkyo receivers that is so hyped it is not funny. Those receivers have not even been received by merchants yet, and nobody knows when they will! If you delete every thread started about a product that doesn't exist yet, half of the content here would disappear in an instant.


I think the main point is the moderator doesn't want 14 SVS threads on the board. That's fine...but if that's the case remove the posts that aren't acceptable with the forum guidelines and then move the thread into the right spot.

Right now it looks like a white wash of SVS and it's turning a lot of people off. I'm new here and don't want to rock the boat but in the threads I've seen specific to SVS...I've seen no difference from them and threads specifc to other products.

All this talk of "things getting out of hand" I get it that people don't wear a cup on this board...that's fine...there is so much traffic it's got to be hard not to have some ruffled feathers and the mods just want to keep the peace.

In terms of the Ultra, that's going to be way more than I would ever spend on a sub anyway...so from that respect I really don't care. But that doesn't mean I wouldn't have been interested in reading about it.

Enjoy the board and have learned a lot here...if there are some ground rules that are being misunderstood I feel like they need to be explained...that's all I'm saying.

this isn't that difficult to understand....threads with direct links to placing orders are not allowed. such behavior hasn't occurred in the HSU and JL threads you are referencing. what makes it even more egregious is that no one outside SVS has ever seen, tested, or heard this sub yet.

creating threads with direct links to placing orders + the obligitory SVS hype = deleted threads.

i for one want to keep talking about this sub here, so let's keep it to the official SVS thread, OK?


theres one big problem all the info svs has is on there product page and they also have there carts there so whait are we susposed to transsribe it all ya no way.

Lets not even go over the whole svs factory visist thread that was taken down oh but the jl ones okay because the folks who went where representing the forum ya thats real fair.

this isn't that difficult to understand....threads with direct links to placing orders are not allowed. such behavior hasn't occurred in the HSU and JL threads you are referencing. what makes it even more egregious is that no one outside SVS has ever seen, tested, or heard this sub yet.

creating threads with direct links to placing orders + the obligitory SVS hype = deleted threads.

i for one want to keep talking about this sub here, so let's keep it to the official SVS thread, OK?

This is simply not true. I have seen countless threads with links to multiple websites in addition to constant mention of pricing etc (see the previously mentioned Onkyo thread if you don't believe me). Nobody seems to care if it's not an SVS thread.

This is simply not true. I have seen countless threads with links to multiple websites in addition to constant mention of pricing etc (see the previously mentioned Onkyo thread if you don't believe me). Nobody seems to care if it's not an SVS thread.


Different moderators probably have different ways with dealing (or not dealing) with such things. I've noticed the Sub forum is a lot more policed than other forums within AVSforum.com


I did't get to read the "Ultra thread" in question. If there was links to pre-orders I can see where they would want to cut that out...but that doesn't have to negate the entire thread IMO (unless the software leaves them no choice). Other boards just weed out the posts they don't like in a particular thread and in some cases move an entire thread to a designated place (like the SVS MAIN thread). There has recently been threads where SVS basically sent college students here to stir up traffic or atleast that was how it was percieved....I'm sure Mr. Bolt is wise to this and is making fair decisions on how to deal with it.

They could have just removed the "offending" link, give me a break here. The original poster already chimed in here that he wasn't aware of his offending, I'm sure he would have understood if he was just informed by the mod in a more mature manner without removing an entire thread. If they wanna cut down on new threads just merge them[unlike 2 or more the exact same thing] like Pooperscooper does on other forums.

It would be nice if this thread could continue to discuss SVS products, performance, and setup, rather than bitching about forum policies that we have no control over.

There have been 10-15 threads about the Ultra subs, and none of those were deleted. In the Mods defense, he has asked repeatedly over the last couple of months to keep things on topic, and not let marketing agendas take over.

No one is saying that you guys can't be excited, but every thread on the sub forum doesn't need to be about SVS subs. There are alot of other good manufacturers out there. This is coming from a 2x SVS sub owner.

SVS should have their own site – ever wonder why they don’t?

I've noticed the Sub forum is a lot more policed than other forums within AVSforum.com

that's b/c the sub forum is unique among most of the forums on AVS (i'd include the speaker forum too).

internet-direct companies like SVS benefit directly and more profoundly from hype/excitement/praise etc. on highly trafficed sites like AVS than "traditional" companies do. panasonic is going to sell a ton of plasmas whether AVS exists or not....but internet-direct companies would have trouble surviving (or thriving) without forums such as these. how many of you reading this knew about SVS or HSU or AV123 before coming to these types of forums?

given this unique symbiotic relationship, the moderators (rightfully so, IMO) are more watchful of behavior that could be perceived as guerrilla marketing.

SVS should have their own site – ever wonder why they don’t?


Because people like you.

This is very easy.....everyone sign up on HOMETHEATERSPOT

They have an SVS only thread that we can talk about anything SVS related we want. Even the SVS guys themselves will chime in often to talk about any questions that might come up.

That solves our problem and solves this forums issue too with too many SVS threads.

Everyone remains happy that way! :D

that's b/c the sub forum is unique among most of the forums on AVS (i'd include the speaker forum too).

internet-direct companies like SVS benefit directly and more profoundly from hype/excitement/praise etc. on highly trafficed sites like AVS than "traditional" companies do. panasonic is going to sell a ton of plasmas whether AVS exists or not....but internet-direct companies would have trouble surviving (or thriving) without forums such as these. how many of you reading this knew about SVS or HSU or AV123 before coming to these types of forums?

given this unique symbiotic relationship, the moderators (rightfully so, IMO) are more watchful of behavior that could be perceived as guerrilla marketing. Your argument is certainly valid, but I don't agree with the conclusion.

The big companies can employ far more sophisticated guerrilla marketing tactics than smaller firms could ever hope to implement. Major corporations have marketing departments with people who specialize in every aspect of persuasion. So if I were concerned about such things, I'd be at least as watchful of the electronics giants as of the small ID's, if not more so.

But that's only my opinion, and it's not my forum. The moderators have a right to run their forum any way they see fit. If the rest of us don't like their rules, we can either grin and bear it or move on to another forum (there are plenty to choose from).

...everyone sign up on HOMETHEATERSPOT... They have an SVS only thread... Thanks for the tip, Brad. AVS has long been by far my favorite forum, but I think it's time to take my own advice and find another to read regularly, at least for subwoofer discussions.

It would be nice if SVS had a user forum on their own site, like Hsu does. I've heard they did once, but removed it. If so, it was before my time. On the other hand, I recognize there are only so many hours in a day, and small business people must wear many hats. I could understand if SVS decided maintaining on-site forum was a luxury they can't afford.

There is an SVS form on that hometheaterspot site.

So really that is their forum.....lets just everyone use it for SVS talk from now on..

TOm or Ed ever post if sealing the Ultra for lower extension 4 longers periods will cause a problem or not?

This is very easy.....everyone sign up on HOMETHEATERSPOT

They have an SVS only thread that we can talk about anything SVS related we want. Even the SVS guys themselves will chime in often to talk about any questions that might come up.

That solves our problem and solves this forums issue too with too many SVS threads.

Everyone remains happy that way! :D

You won't get unbiased reports on the SVS subs there. It's practically run by SVS. The minute you post a negative review get ready to get pounced on. Not only from the guys at SVS but also from the moderators of that site. If you push it they will simply ban you. Completely turned me off of the brand and frankly I'm glad David is finally doing something about them. I say good riddance SVS and thank you David Bott. They've been sponging off the bandwidth of others far too long. If it weren't for forums they wouldn't exist. You'd think they would be more respectful.

I respectfully disagree with barelyb in regards to how HomeTheaterSpot conducts itself.

Tim

I respectfully disagree with barelyb in regards to how HomeTheaterSpot conducts itself.

Tim
I have first hand experience. Everything I said happens, happened to me.

You won't get unbiased reports on the SVS subs there. It's practically run by SVS. The minute you post a negative review get ready to get pounced on. Not only from the guys at SVS but also from the moderators of that site. If you push it they will simply ban you. Completely turned me off of the brand and frankly I'm glad David is finally doing something about them. I say good riddance SVS and thank you David Bott. They've been sponging off the bandwidth of others far too long. If it weren't for forums they wouldn't exist. You'd think they would be more respectful.

I think you'll get that reaction no matter where you are. People are passionate about what they buy and get defensive [sometimes overly much] when someone says something negative about something they own, whether on a forum, on the street, with a car, a house, or a stereo. Not sure I see anything un-natural about that. In the main, it's Davids forum. So I guess he gets to do whatever he wants with it. As to SVS and advertising....I see their ads all over the place on the net....so it's not like they don't do it. Just not here. Don't know why and I'm not sure I even care. I will say though, that there are tons of manufactures getting discussed on this and other forums that don't advertise on them.

I respectfully disagree with barelyb in regards to how HomeTheaterSpot conducts itself.

Tim

That's ok ... You have always been a pretty nice guy. You are entitled to be wrong about an occasional topic ... :D

Thanks craig, ... and with that in mind, I'll keep that chit in reserve for when I do actually have a need to cash it in since there's no reason to redeem it in this instance. :D

Tim

You won't get unbiased reports on the SVS subs there. It's practically run by SVS. The minute you post a negative review get ready to get pounced on. Not only from the guys at SVS but also from the moderators of that site. If you push it they will simply ban you. Completely turned me off of the brand and frankly I'm glad David is finally doing something about them. I say good riddance SVS and thank you David Bott. They've been sponging off the bandwidth of others far too long. If it weren't for forums they wouldn't exist. You'd think they would be more respectful.


:D that's just too funny you post this in the "SVS owner/support thread" ?...and you talking about respect? ! Clasisc!

This is David's forum, not an exercise in free speech – your first amendment rights are not infringed upon if David removes a post or thread. Exercising your own first amendment right is as easy as starting your own forum.

As to how moderators use their authority, that's more of an issue of culture on the forum. Obviously, if you don't like the culture, no one is making you stay.

Personally, I would hate to see perceived bias stop people from participating on such an active and knowledgeable forum as this one.

As many (all if you've read my posts) know, SVS is one of my clients. I am not a SVS employee, and SVS has not paid me, nor ever asked me, to participate in a thread. I am a home theater enthusiast, and this is just my personal request: let's keep this thread on the topic of SVS, and not the forum's politics/culture. It would be a shame to see so much knowledge disappear with a keystroke.

As to the other forum mentioned here, several sponsor companies have their own areas, including SVS, Hsu, and Axiom. That other forum has other areas for audio/video, etc. filled with people who have lots to share about products and companies other than the sponsors. Like AVS, it's a good forum, but that does not mean people should abandon AVS.

-Robb

I agree Robb,.........It should be expected that the policies governing various forums, while based on the likes and dislikes of the folks that create and/or moderate them, are bound to be different. I wouldn't get too frustrated over this. Dave has made his point. It's his house. But the choice is still ours to either move-out or move-on.

I would like to ask the following question.

What is the difference between the new Ultra 13, the Ultra12/2 and the Plus 2?

The plus 2 is basically the same price?

The Ultra/2 has a more powerful amp, 2 drivers, and is more exspensive?

How is the performance of these three going to stack up?

People have told me to sell my Ultra/2 for the new Ultra 13? Why would
I sell a $2300 sub and buy a $ 1400 sub?

Why should you buy the new ultra over the plus 2? Why does SVS price
these two subs the same? Isn't the new ultra a plus 2 killer at the same price?

Swigust, your answers are in this thread:
http://www.hometheaterspot.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/137018/tp/1/

If a username/password window pops up, close it and keep going.

More comparative info in this thread:
http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/svsound/4493-svs-ultra-13-pre-order-starts.html#post35078

The PB12+2 us supossed to be slightly stronger above 25hz than the PB13, but falls behind under that. The biggest difference with the PB13 is said to be SQ. If your happy with the sound of your Ultra2 then keep it. The 13 is supposed to have a much flatter FR and better linearity. There is a lot of info on the Shack and Spot as has been said.

Bill3508

"So no talk about the new Ultra but Gotham OK? "

SORRY THIS THREAD IS CLOSED.

No explanation. :confused:

That says it all doesn't it?

Post your Ultra questions here or go to the Spot or Shack. No other choice.

Bill3508

For that matter, I guess you should not be able to talk about any upcoming product? I understand that SVS should not be using this forum or any forum for selling their product, unless they are paying for advertising, but to not even be able to talk about it is kinda stupid in my book. Oh whell, I'm sure the S*S PB U***a will do just fine.

Your argument is certainly valid, but I don't agree with the conclusion.

The big companies can employ far more sophisticated guerrilla marketing tactics than smaller firms could ever hope to implement. Major corporations have marketing departments with people who specialize in every aspect of persuasion. So if I were concerned about such things, I'd be at least as watchful of the electronics giants as of the small ID's, if not more so.

But that's only my opinion, and it's not my forum. The moderators have a right to run their forum any way they see fit. If the rest of us don't like their rules, we can either grin and bear it or move on to another forum (there are plenty to choose from).

Thanks for the tip, Brad. AVS has long been by far my favorite forum, but I think it's time to take my own advice and find another to read regularly, at least for subwoofer discussions.

It would be nice if SVS had a user forum on their own site, like Hsu does. I've heard they did once, but removed it. If so, it was before my time. On the other hand, I recognize there are only so many hours in a day, and small business people must wear many hats. I could understand if SVS decided maintaining on-site forum was a luxury they can't afford.

It does not make any sense why SVS does not have a forum to talk about their products. While I have no idea how much it costs to have a forum, I have a friend of mine that runs a Ford Mustang website, with very minimal vendor ads. Guess I could ask him. Then this would give a place for the obsessive fans of their products could go to talk about them. Kinda like another Internet based AV company.

It does not make any sense why SVS does not have a forum to talk about their products. While I have no idea how much it costs to have a forum, I have a friend of mine that runs a Ford Mustang website, with very minimal vendor ads. Guess I could ask him. Then this would give a place for the obsessive fans of their products could go to talk about them. Kinda like another Internet based AV company.

I'm thinking its' a traffic thing. SVS would rather use forums that have established some credibility and have a reasonable amount of traffic. It would be trivial for them get people to help them run a site of their own. I bet a few folks would even volunteer.

This is a thread to talk about SVS products....not to talk about why they don't have a forum.

Ever think a company might actually be putting their $ into the subwoofers instead of paying someone to upkeep a web forum? ;)

My 2 cents on this subject ...

1. It is nobody's business but the owners of SVS in the matter of their starting their own forum.

2. See #1.

3. Home Theater SPot is a marketing forum, and the "players" there pay for having a dedicated forum space. Logic dictates that it will have different rules than will a forum which is supposed to be neutral, like AVS. However, sending people from here to another forum is VERY bad form. In fact, it is quite childish.

4. This one seems to elude a lot of people, so I am going to deliberately use capital letters. The purpose of these capital letters is for clarity, apologies if this offends anyone.

THE MODERATORS HERE CAN ONLY RESPOND TO A "FORUM RULES VIOLATING" POST WHICH IS REPORTED TO THEM. THEY DO NOT MONITOR THREADS. IN EACH POST, ON THE LEFT HAND SIDE OF THE POST, THERE IS A PLACE TO REPORT THAT POST TO THE MODERATOR ON DUTY.

SOMEONE HAS TO "CLICK" ON THAT POST AND SEND THE MODERATOR A QUICK NOTE THAT THE POST IN QUESTION VIOLATES THE FORUM RULES.

IT IS THEN, AND ONLY THEN, THAT THE MODERATOR STEPS IN AND TAKES WHATEVER CORRECTIVE STEPS ARE REQUIRED.

Ok ... any questions on this ?

If not, let us please get back to discussing how to improve performance of one's SVS products. I have a pair of the new Ultras on order, and would like to be able to have some meaningful conversation about them, especially when they actually arrive. I would also like to have those discussions here.

My 2 cents on this subject ...

THE MODERATORS HERE CAN ONLY RESPOND TO A "FORUM RULES VIOLATING" POST WHICH IS REPORTED TO THEM. THEY DO NOT MONITOR THREADS. IN EACH POST, ON THE LEFT HAND SIDE OF THE POST, THERE IS A PLACE TO REPORT THAT POST TO THE MODERATOR ON DUTY.

SOMEONE HAS TO "CLICK" ON THAT POST AND SEND THE MODERATOR A QUICK NOTE THAT THE POST IN QUESTION VIOLATES THE FORUM RULES.

IT IS THEN, AND ONLY THEN, THAT THE MODERATOR STEPS IN AND TAKES WHATEVER CORRECTIVE STEPS ARE REQUIRED.

Ok ... any questions on this ?

Yes, thank you. I have e few:

1) Who determines whether a post is deleted, the thread is closed, or the thread is totally deleted?

2) Is a "report" required to prove or give reasons as to why action on a particular thread should be taken?

3) Why would any member of this forum object to a thread on the new SVS Ultra?

4) Why would a moderator use harsh language(TAKE THIS SOMEPLACE ELSE)?
Rather than simply explaining why the thread was not only closed, but deleted.

5) I can understand a particular post being deleted, but not a thread that has been going on for some time.

Yes, thank you. I have a few:

1) Who determines whether a post is deleted. the thread is closed, or the thread is totally deleted?
The moderator who receives the reported post does

2) Is a "report" required to prove or give reasons as to why action on a particular threrad should be taken?
Yes - There are over 800,000 threads on AVS, and typically there are 2000-8000 people on line. To ask the moderators to read through each and every thread is to ask the impossible

3) Why would any member of this forum object to a thread on the new SVS Ultra?
One thread had a direct link to the order page. The other threads all had inflammatory phrases towards the mods here. For example, the one deleted thread was telling people to go to other forums. It is not as simple as people dis-liking Ultra threads.

4) Why would a moderator use harsh language(TAKE THIS SOMEPLACE ELSE)?
Rather than simply explaining why the thread awas not only closed, but deleted.

Because people were telling members how to go to other forums. If you owned a store, and I stood outside it and told people to go to your competitor, would you pull up a chair for me ? Or would you tell me to leave ?

5) I can understand a particular post being deleted, but not a thread that has been going on for some time.

Try moderating a forum this size. You realize there may be 13 "bad" posts in a thread with 500 total posts. It can take hours to sift through. They only have "X" amount of hours in a day.

Deleted by poster.

Proud owner of the PC-Ultra right now! I preordered the PB13-Ultra in fine textured black on May 2nd! I'm lookin' forward to the upgrade!!!!!

The moderator who receives the reported post does

Yes - There are over 800,000 threads on AVS, and typically there are 2000-8000 people on line. To ask the moderators to read through each and every thread is to ask the impossible.
Your point is well taken. But I don't think anyone is arguing about the amount of work it takes to moderate a forum.

One thread had a direct link to the order page. The other threads all had inflammatory phrases towards the mods here. For example, the one deleted thread was telling people to go to other forums. It is not as simple as people dis-liking Ultra threads.

Well, we shouldn't be tolerating anyone who is inflammatory....toward a moderator or anyone else for that matter. As to your other point, I think we all have witnessed and even engaged in cross-forum referrals. Most of us traffic a host of forums so it's only logical to me that you would see this. Not sure I see a huge issue here. But I agree that we probably should be more sensitive to it as an issue.


Because people were telling members how to go to other forums. If you owned a store, and I stood outside it and told people to go to your competitor, would you pull up a chair for me ? Or would you tell me to leave?
If it were a BAM store and I was the owner, there's no doubt what I would do. This, IMO isn't quite the same thing though....mainly because AVS doesn't sell SVS.

Try moderating a forum this size. You realize there may be 13 "bad" posts in a thread with 500 total posts. It can take hours to sift through. They only have "X" amount of hours in a day.
noted

does SVS give discounts to repeat customers? I bought a PB2+ when it was released 3 years ago, and i'm going to get another one... can i expect anything?

Would I be content with a PB12+/2 in my 1375 cu ft room? I know it's kind of small, but how low will I be going with one? I've read that the output is similar to the F113 which is a choice for me, but I've been waiting for 3 months with sub-par bass (Velodyne DLS-5000R) and it's driving me nuts! :eek:

Your point is well taken. But I don't think anyone is arguing about the amount of work it takes to moderate a forum.

If it were a BAM store and I was the owner, there's no doubt what I would do. This, IMO isn't quite the same thing though....mainly because AVS doesn't sell SVS.



To address your 2 main points above:

1. Yes, when people complain about how they think some posts are ignored, while others are targeted, they are either ignoring or unware of how a forum like this operates.

2. AVS, Home Theater SPot, and every other forum generate revenue based on the number of users. When people tell others to leave here, and to go to another forum, they are telling AVS customers to leave.

This forum is geared towards supporting the use of products - and is not supposed to be a marketing place for any company's products. When a direct link to the purchase of a product is listed in a post, that post violates the forum rules.

As an example, in the JL Audio threads, we don't have dealers quoting prices about the product. You don't see links directing people to specific web sites with ordering information.

does SVS give discounts to repeat customers? I bought a PB2+ when it was released 3 years ago, and i'm going to get another one... can i expect anything?

Yes, you are entitled to a 10% discount on future purchases (IIRC).

Would I be content with a PB12+/2 in my 1375 cu ft room? I know it's kind of small, but how low will I be going with one? I've read that the output is similar to the F113 which is a choice for me, but I've been waiting for 3 months with sub-par bass (Velodyne DLS-5000R) and it's driving me nuts! :eek:

The Velodyne is pretty good, especially in a room that size. What do you think you are missing ? Knowing this will help in directing you to the proper sub. :)

Yes, you are entitled to a 10% discount on future purchases (IIRC). That's what I thought, too, but they recently quoted me 5%. It turned out to be moot in my case, as I bought B-Stock, so I never followed up on it. In any case, I'd ask SVS.

The Velodyne is pretty good, especially in a room that size. What do you think you are missing ? Knowing this will help in directing you to the proper sub. :)

I feel like I'm lacking alot of low end. Sound quality wise I'm content, but the price difference right now is a considering factor. I'm on the verge of just buying 2 PB12/+2, considering the price difference. How well will they do with music? I listen to ALOT of music because my HT room also doubles as my recording studio.

Craig,

You have to be kidding me when you state that telling people to go to the other forums is childish. It has been made clear here by David that he has no interest in any talk of the new Ultra being on the forum. The only way to discuss it is to post in the support thread. Its real fun digging through one huge thread to find stuff instead of making a thread for that individual item that you are looking for, ala, Fathom, new Onkyo's, etc. It would be like posting a single question in your huge thread and then trying to keep up with it. To hell with that.

If it becomes too hard for people to discuss and find the answers they are looking for they go somewhere else. If one place doesn't have a product a good business will tell that customer where to find it, a bad one will not. Also there is clealy marketing going on by people here and it is clearly defined in David's post of what is allowed and what isn't, specifically regarding the "This and That" post. And don't say he's just making conversation because it only takes a few post to do that. Posting the same thing over and over is much more than that and almost always its in threads where the OP subject is something totally different. The poster has been reported but nothing done about it.

So call us childish if you will, but we are all here to obtain information and advice and if that goal is blocked it forces us to go around it and find it somewhere else. And if others don't know where to find that info you help them to find it.

And by the way I love this forum, good bunch of people and lots of info, but what is going on now is just pure frustration.

Bill3508

Yes, you are entitled to a 10% discount on future purchases (IIRC).

really? how do i get that? i just call and tell them that I shopped with them before?

Ou8thisSN, not to discuss anything pertaining to pricing here, your answer is posted on the SVS web site both in News and the Ultra product pages.

Approaching the precipice -- the discount offered on the preorder pricing is not as great as that offered in similar situations on full price items. Do contact SVS if you are a returning customer or are ordering more than one unit.

That's what I thought, too, but they recently quoted me 5%. It turned out to be moot in my case, as I bought B-Stock, so I never followed up on it. In any case, I'd ask SVS.

Maybe it was 5% ... I know I got a returning customer discount when I bought the SC-01/SB-01 package, and thought it was 10%.

I would check, but I deleted the emails that came with the order.

Craig,

You have to be kidding me when you state that telling people to go to the other forums is childish. It has been made clear here by David that he has no interest in any talk of the new Ultra being on the forum. The only way to discuss it is to post in the support thread. Its real fun digging through one huge thread to find stuff instead of making a thread for that individual item that you are looking for, ala, Fathom, new Onkyo's, etc. It would be like posting a single question in your huge thread and then trying to keep up with it. To hell with that.

If it becomes too hard for people to discuss and find the answers they are looking for they go somewhere else. If one place doesn't have a product a good business will tell that customer where to find it, a bad one will not. Also there is clealy marketing going on by people here and it is clearly defined in David's post of what is allowed and what isn't, specifically regarding the "This and That" post. And don't say he's just making conversation because it only takes a few post to do that. Posting the same thing over and over is much more than that and almost always its in threads where the OP subject is something totally different. The poster has been reported but nothing done about it.

So call us childish if you will, but we are all here to obtain information and advice and if that goal is blocked it forces us to go around it and find it somewhere else. And if others don't know where to find that info you help them to find it.

And by the way I love this forum, good bunch of people and lots of info, but what is going on now is just pure frustration.

Bill3508

No, I am not kidding. The actions taken by some of the guys here have been childish. Until people started posting links to pages in which to purchase the new Ultra, discussion on the Ultra Was fine.

I actually saw the threads which were deleted, and they had nothing to do with the discussion of the Ultra's performance. They had huge, bold face sentences disparaging the rules of the forum. They had direct links into the pre-order page for the new Ultra.

Here are links to actual threads which dealt with the Ultra's performance, and ways to maximize the abilities. These threads are all still active.

Ultra-13 thread #1 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=842680)

Ultra-13 thread #2 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=842675)

Ultra-13 thread #3 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=828429)

Ultra-13 thread #4 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=832246)

what i'm ordering is not a preorder item, anyway i'm glad i even asked the question. will definitely find out for sure tommorrow. would love it if they do

That's what I thought, too, but they recently quoted me 5%. It turned out to be moot in my case, as I bought B-Stock, so I never followed up on it. In any case, I'd ask SVS.

5% discount over the pre-order price is cheaper than
10% discount over the regular price (this was the price quoted on the news section of SVS)

The Velodyne is pretty good, especially in a room that size. What do you think you are missing ? Knowing this will help in directing you to the proper sub. :)

I agree spezzy, in a room that small, the Velodyne is barely ON.

but hey, it's your money. I've spent almost twice the price of that Velodyne and gained about 10% more performance.

5% discount over the pre-order price is cheaper than
10% discount over the regular price (this was the price quoted on the news section of SVS) Yes it is, but I wasn't asking about a pre-order. Anyway, as I said before, the way to get the correct information is to ask SVS directly.

I agree spezzy, in a room that small, the Velodyne is barely ON.

but hey, it's your money. I've spent almost twice the price of that Velodyne and gained about 10% more performance.

I get port noise quite a bit. Kind of worries me, since the PB12+/2 is also ported.

to get port noise from something like the PB12/2 OR the Velo 5000R would require a very very very incredible amount of volume. I've never heard port noise from my velo in a 2600 cu.ft. room.


edit: I just read your sig ... you're a DJ ... if you were trying to duplicate the bass from the huge subs in concerts/gigs in your room, I now understand.

wait, so its 10% off if you're a return customer, and only 5% off if you buy something thats a pre-order AND you're a return customer buying said item?

wait, so its 10% off if you're a return customer, and only 5% off if you buy something thats a pre-order AND you're a return customer buying said item?

10% off regular price. 5% off pre-order price. That's the difference--different starting points.

Originally Posted by javry
...If it were a BAM store and I was the owner, there's no doubt what I would do. This, IMO isn't quite the same thing though....mainly because AVS doesn't sell SVS.

Actually, SVS is listed under "Speakers" on the AVS products page here (http://www.avscience.com/products.htm).
Maybe there needs to be some clarification on that point, but it would appear by listing SVS as a product AVS sells the unit in some way?

No, I am not kidding. The actions taken by some of the guys here have been childish. Until people started posting links to pages in which to purchase the new Ultra, discussion on the Ultra Was fine.

I actually saw the threads which were deleted, and they had nothing to do with the discussion of the Ultra's performance. They had huge, bold face sentences disparaging the rules of the forum. They had direct links into the pre-order page for the new Ultra.

Here are links to actual threads which dealt with the Ultra's performance, and ways to maximize the abilities. These threads are all still active.

Ultra-13 thread #1 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=842680)

Ultra-13 thread #2 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=842675)

Ultra-13 thread #3 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=828429)

Ultra-13 thread #4 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=832246)

Going in circles here.... :rolleyes:

I see it like this:
1. Post was made linking directly to an ordering page (bad poster.. no biscuit)
2. Thread was deleted (instead of post only... )
3. People did not approve of this action
4. People start boycotting AVS
5. People defend AVS by saying it was a violation to link directly to an ordering page (not really why people are complaining... I think)

AVS can handle a "violation" however they wish, but they also deal with any of the fallout. Will the vultures continue circling :D

Not sure if it really matters now.

----------- Actual SVS question ----------------
Won't the New Ultra have more port turbulance compared to the 12+/2 since the 12+/2 has larger ports? (3) 4" on the 12+/2 vs. (3) 3.5" on the New Ultra... or does the new port/enclosure design remedy this.

Going in circles here.... :rolleyes:

I see it like this:
1. Post was made linking directly to an ordering page (bad poster.. no biscuit)
2. Thread was deleted (instead of post only... )
3. People did not approve of this action
4. People start boycotting AVS
5. People defend AVS by saying it was a violation to link directly to an ordering page (not really why people are complaining... I think)



Going in a straight line here :rolleyes: :p :D

It was said that one needs to go elsewhere to find Ultra threads.

That was not true, there are four active Ultra threads on AVS now.

These four threads were all active when the now deleted threads were started.

Now ... anyone who read the deleted threads, and who is honest about what he read, knows this: There was not a single shred of performance information in the 2 deleted threads.

Thread 1 had ordering info.

Thread 2 had info which was disparaging to the moderators here.

That was it. There was no useful information on the product.

The simple fact is, besides the existing SVS support thread, there were FOUR ACTIVE ULTRA THREADS on AVS. All four were started in the past 6 weeks.

Those four threads are still active, and people can discuss the Ultra's performance in any of those threads.

Sometimes, the truth does hurt. This seems to be one of those times. The truth is, there was NO clamp down on Ultra discussions.

Any questions ?

10% off regular price. 5% off pre-order price. That's the difference--different starting points.


so, does the now reduced pricing due to inventory on the piano black subs, is that considered regular pricing?

so, does the now reduced pricing due to inventory on the piano black subs, is that considered regular pricing?

Call SVS .... Erik is a terrific guy. (703) 845-1472

so, does the now reduced pricing due to inventory on the piano black subs, is that considered regular pricing? They told me there was no further discount available on the inventory reduction items, but, again, ask them directly.

Going in a straight line here :rolleyes: :p :D

Sometimes, the truth does hurt. This seems to be one of those times. The truth is, there was NO clamp down on Ultra discussions.

Any questions ?

I agree... Looks like Ultra topics are fine. Don't bash this site or link to ordering pages and we'll all be ok.

Straight indeed.... :D

How about the question concerning the New ultras 3.5" ports vs the plus/2's 4" ports?.... More port turbulance or not?

I agree... Looks like Ultra topics are fine. Don't bash this site or link to ordering pages and we'll all be ok.

Straight indeed.... :D

How about the question concerning the New ultras 3.5" ports vs the plus/2's 4" ports?.... More port turbulance or not?

I'll let you know when mine arrives. Keep in mind, the Plus/2, when in 20 Hz tune, uses 2 x 4 inch ports (25.13 ^ 2 inches) where the Ultra uses 3 x 3.5 in ports (28.86 ^ 2 inches) for that tuning frequency.

ordered a plus/2, no discount but not a huge deal, still a great price on hopefully a great color.

Yes, you are entitled to a 10% discount on future purchases (IIRC).

Do you have a link? :D

ordered a plus/2, no discount but not a huge deal, still a great price on hopefully a great color.
Send an email to sales they will credit you, if you bought the first one from them new.

what can i use as a reference? you? this thread?

Reference to what? They give discount for returning customers for years, all you have to do is send an email and ask for it, give them as much info as you're comfortable to send via email to find your old invoice, or just call them, the number is posted on the previous page.

well when i called SVS, Erik said that they will not further discount the overstock piano black subs, even for returning customers. now if someone in this thread bought one of those and was a returning customer and got a discount, i'll definitely email them or call them.

well when i called SVS, Erik said that they will not further discount the overstock piano black subs, even for returning customers. now if someone in this thread bought one of those and was a returning customer and got a discount, i'll definitely email them or call them. That seems to be their current policy, so don't be surprised if no one from this tread responds. Erik told me the same thing. I got lucky and found what I wanted in B-Stock, though. :cool:

Everyone that has ordered an Ultra, when do you expect them to ship?

well when i called SVS, Erik said that they will not further discount the overstock piano black subs, even for returning customers. now if someone in this thread bought one of those and was a returning customer and got a discount, i'll definitely email them or call them.


Got ya, I wasn't aware of that situation, sorry mate.

Everyone that has ordered an Ultra, when do you expect them to ship? Just posed that question over at the Shack, Ed or Ron will chime in there soon I'm sure.

I was under the impression, that they would be shipping late July 7th... as per the website.

Now I have a Dual sub Question...

I have a Plus/2 that I recently purchased, and I love it... 8200 cu. ft room.
I was looking to buy a PB12-Plus for future use in my Bedroom... But I was curious as to trying to blend it with my current setup... Would this be a good combination..?

Im also really interested in trying the 12hz extension in my bedroom... Lend me your thoughts

Warp

Im also really interested in trying the 12hz extension in my bedroom... Lend me your thoughts

Warp

There is a vibrator joke to be had here ... but I am letting it go. :D

How big is your bedroom ? Size DOES matter.

Ok, so I didn't TOTALLY let it go ... :eek:

14x14x8 1568 cu ft give or take...

But my main question lies in the mixing of the two different subs...

:)

co-located, I think it's ok to mix the two subs.

when split up, you'll need a REW or SMS-1 to confirm the results ... wait a minute, don't you have an SMS-1?

If you keep both subs at the same tuning frequency, you will be fine.

Warpdrv,

What is that equipment rack? I'm not sure it's big enough to hold all my gear, but it's the style I'm looking for.

Oh, and yes, you'll be fine (as mentioned) with both in the same tune. Depending on location you might want to have the PB12-Plus/2 running a tad hotter since it will have more headroom than a single PB12-Plus. If they are not colocated, yes, you may need to work on any FR issues, but at least both have continuously variable phase so you can get them both in phase with your mains.

-Robb

If it were me, I'd experiment with the following:

use the sms-1 to confirm results ...
I'd set the PB12Plus to the lowest tune ...
set it to the lowest crossover setting ...

set the PB12 Plus/2 to the highest tune ...
with standard bypass crossover (signal from the receiver)

Cool.... thanks for the response guys... I think Im going to pull the trigger.

I could take advantage of the gloss black discount on another Plus/2, but I honestly don't need that in my bedroom... hehhe Anywho... I would like to try the lower extensions...

BTW, Im still waiting on my delivery of the SMS-1... and I also will probably pull the trigger on a BFD, as I have the gear to support it and will have 3 setups to lock down, and want to try all available, including the up and coming SVS unit...

The console is from Standout designs...

http://www.standoutdesigns.com/ I love the look, and craftsmanship is simply top notch.

I was under the impression, that they would be shipping late July 7th... as per the website.

Ron S. says it's more like the end of July.

The console is from Standout designs...

http://www.standoutdesigns.com/ I love the look, and craftsmanship is simply top notch.


Those are very nice. What was the shipping charge on yours, if you dont mind me asking?

Question 4 yas
I have a SB12+ and my room is on the long side -its 25 Ft long and 14Ft wide
When I calibrate the sub properly and listen to music at lower volume There is a lack of lows. They wake up when I twist the volume knob.
If I turn up the input of the sub then you can tell where it is coming from and does not dissiper like it should It does not blend good.
Is this just the nature of a smaller sub ? I also do not have a corner to place the sub so its on the front wall.
I may try the rear corner BUT is a rear corner placement OK to blend for Music ? I would think the lows behind you for not sound right for music .
If I upgraded to a PB12+ Or even a PB12+2 solve this problem OR would I be better off running 2 SB12+ in stereo up front ?
Thanks

So as i talked about before, I ordered the subwoofer on Monday. Erik assured me that it would ship Tuesday and it did. He told me that I should expect it by the end of this week, seeing as I live in Tennessee, which is only two states away from Ohio. I called BAX Global yesterday and they said that it would be at least 5 business days, so I should expect it next Tuesday. Have any of you received your shipments faster than the maximum time window that BAX global gives you for economy shipping? I'd love to play with it over the weekend, is there any chance it will get here by then?

Question 4 yas
I have a SB12+ and my room is on the long side -its 25 Ft long and 14Ft wide
When I calibrate the sub properly and listen to music at lower volume There is a lack of lows. They wake up when I twist the volume knob.
If I turn up the input of the sub then you can tell where it is coming from and does not dissiper like it should It does not blend good.
Is this just the nature of a smaller sub ? I also do not have a corner to place the sub so its on the front wall.
I may try the rear corner BUT is a rear corner placement OK to blend for Music ? I would think the lows behind you for not sound right for music .
If I upgraded to a PB12+ Or even a PB12+2 solve this problem OR would I be better off running 2 SB12+ in stereo up front ?
Thanks

Antman, switching to a bigger sub will not have any effect on integration. Try lowering your crossover.

Antman, switching to a bigger sub will not have any effect on integration. Try lowering your crossover.
Now I set my Paradigm 40s to large and on my denon 3805 I use LFE and Main and set crossover @80

If you run your Paradigms large, there really is no need to cross over at 80. Try 60 or even 40.

If you run your Paradigms large, there really is no need to cross over at 80. Try 60 or even 40.
I will but this is for Music For HT My rears are set to small and with the 3805 they all have to be set the same

Have you tried small/80 for everything? How does that work?

Those are very nice. What was the shipping charge on yours, if you dont mind me asking?

The prices for the units went up since I bought mine i see on the site, I think I paid $100. shipping.

All in all, for the Radius N70 I paid less then $1k...

So as i talked about before, I ordered the subwoofer on Monday. Erik assured me that it would ship Tuesday and it did. He told me that I should expect it by the end of this week, seeing as I live in Tennessee, which is only two states away from Ohio. I called BAX Global yesterday and they said that it would be at least 5 business days, so I should expect it next Tuesday. Have any of you received your shipments faster than the maximum time window that BAX global gives you for economy shipping? I'd love to play with it over the weekend, is there any chance it will get here by then?

Im in wisconsin and I got mine in a few day (2-3)... Maybe BAX is just busy with that route in this time frame...

Sorry to hear it will take that long, but its worth the wait...

Have you tried small/80 for everything? How does that work?
I have and for Music there is not enough lows (FOR ME)
HT it is fine with this set up

I have and for Music there is not enough lows (FOR ME)
HT it is fine with this set up

How did you determine the placement of your subwoofer? Did you place your subwoofer in a location with the flattest frequency response (i.e. the crawl test)?

How did you determine the placement of your subwoofer? Did you place your subwoofer in a location with the flattest frequency response (i.e. the crawl test)?
Unfourtunaly room layout does not have any other choice for the sub
have a look at pix

...Have any of you received your shipments faster than the maximum time window that BAX global gives you for economy shipping?...
I've ordered from SVS twice, and it's only taken two or three days to suburban Chicago. They used UPS ground, though. And this is kind of a hot spot for trucks.

The big subs are shipped by forwarders, the contracted service is 5 day (business days) deferred and that's what is usually quoted. If it hits a hub early you should get notified for delivery within 24hours. Depending on where you live and what day it's shipped it can anywhere from 2-6 days (for remotes).

Question 4 yas
I have a SB12+ and my room is on the long side -its 25 Ft long and 14Ft wide
When I calibrate the sub properly and listen to music at lower volume There is a lack of lows. They wake up when I twist the volume knob.
If I turn up the input of the sub then you can tell where it is coming from and does not dissiper like it should It does not blend good.
Is this just the nature of a smaller sub ? I also do not have a corner to place the sub so its on the front wall.
I may try the rear corner BUT is a rear corner placement OK to blend for Music ? I would think the lows behind you for not sound right for music .
If I upgraded to a PB12+ Or even a PB12+2 solve this problem OR would I be better off running 2 SB12+ in stereo up front ?
Thanks

Most music isn't isn't going to have much bass. So by increasing the gain you will be creating an artifact to your music. It isn't a bad thing necessarily, it just depends on what you like.

If you calibrate a corner placement it should sound the same as your current set up.

You have some options.

1. Crossover at a lower frequency and then increase the gain. You may get the integration and volume you want.

2. turn the calibration off for music. This will increase your room response, but you may not like the sound or integration.

3. Add a second sb12+. For music it makes sense to run dual subs get more even output throughout a room. Especially with a high crossover point.

Running stereo bass would be the best IMO for music, but you need the space to do it.

Changing to a pb12+/2 will give awesome headroom, but the added low end response will only be apparent for HT. Music doesn't often go below 30 Hz, unless you listen to orchestral pipe organ stuff. Therefore for music, a second SB12+ is preferable.

Also consider pulling your two main channels out from the wall as much as possible. You may get much better response from them.


I usually listen to 2 channel critically without my sub. My towers are flat to 30 Hz. But there isn't a lot of bass in the blues, jazz, folk, even rock music I listen to. For easy rock music listening (multitasking) I often use the sub with the calibration turned off. It is more boomy, but I don't mind for the multitasking times.

FWIW when I add the sub calibrated to my towers (and towers let to large, swapping to small) for music it really doesn't add much bass to the sound, showing me that the speakers are doing their job and that the source material isn't bass heavy. The perceived lack of bass is just that, a perception, and a personal preference.



kw........

Well I couldn't wait anymore, and wanted to cash in on the Piano Black deal, so I pulled the trigger on a PB12-Plus, as my second sub.. will end up putting it in my bedroom of 1600 cu ft. when I finish that HT setup... but until then I will pair it with my Plus/2 in my great room. :)

Can't wait to see the two in the same room... hhehehe

thanks ED Mullen, and Erik for your advice, and help... :)

Quote from Ed
the Plus/2 in the 20 Hz tune and the PB12-Plus in the native tune will pair up very well, having similar tune points and phase response. Calibrate the Plus about 3-4 dB lower than the Plus/2 and they should both reach their limits about the same time.

So as i talked about before, I ordered the subwoofer on Monday. Erik assured me that it would ship Tuesday and it did. He told me that I should expect it by the end of this week, seeing as I live in Tennessee, which is only two states away from Ohio. I called BAX Global yesterday and they said that it would be at least 5 business days, so I should expect it next Tuesday. Have any of you received your shipments faster than the maximum time window that BAX global gives you for economy shipping? I'd love to play with it over the weekend, is there any chance it will get here by then?

I ordered my Plus/2 on 5/2, It shipped on 5/3, and arivved in PA.on 5/7. Not bad.
Bax gave me a delivery date of 5/11. Now Iam having fun setting it up amd I see another piano black B-Stock on their website. I dont know if the wife is into lugging another beast up 27 stairs. The only reason mine was B-Stock was that the base plate was flat black and not piano black.

I saw that Piano Black Plus/2 as well, at a good discount, but I honestly couldn't justify that monster in my 1600^3 ft room... so I opted for the Plus... That alone will be more then enough... :) Should be awesome..

so when BAX does deliver... is it to the doorstep? there are about 8 stairs from the grass to the landing in front of our front door. can i assume they will at least bring it up to the landing?

so when BAX does deliver... is it to the doorstep? there are about 8 stairs from the grass to the landing in front of our front door. can i assume they will at least bring it up to the landing?

I can't answer that one .The driver set it in my garage. Iwould think if he has a hand truck ,whoever is there to sign for it could help him get it up the stairs or steps.

so when BAX does deliver... is it to the doorstep? there are about 8 stairs from the grass to the landing in front of our front door. can i assume they will at least bring it up to the landing?

I find a $20 bill, goes along way with those drivers, and most will help ya lug it a bit to help ya out...

Some go straight to the a"I can't go into the house..." and they lose out on the $$

I have a sneaking suspision that a cool friend with news of a new toy would also likely be happy to help you, with beers in mind... and the thrill of a new audition...

Depends on the driver, I asked and he helped me carry it in. On his way out I gave a $20 and a cold Coke.

I saw that Piano Black Plus/2 as well, at a good discount, but I honestly couldn't justify that monster in my 1600^3 ft room... so I opted for the Plus... That alone will be more then enough... :) Should be awesome..


Man the Plus/2 would have been ROCKIN in that room.

Let us know what you think of the PLUS...

For sure... If I really want a thrill, I can always drag that beast into my bedroom and see what happens... would make for a supercool nightstand... :)

I have to figure out what In-walls I am going to go with in my bedroom...
Im not going to load it up with speakers... I want a clean look, Im going to check out Bohlender-Graebener (http://www.bgcorp.com/productLine.php?id=3)
But Im always up for suggestions... These are supposed be pretty nice, and I can get them at cost...

i dont need them to carry it in, i just need them to get it to my doorstep. now i know its customary to tip drivers if they help you with it into the house. i dont need that, i just want to know at what point of the house are they supposed to deliver it by the charge that I paid. is i to the doorway? to the driveway? to the curb by the street?

Most music isn't isn't going to have much bass. So by increasing the gain you will be creating an artifact to your music. It isn't a bad thing necessarily, it just depends on what you like.

If you calibrate a corner placement it should sound the same as your current set up.

You have some options.

1. Crossover at a lower frequency and then increase the gain. You may get the integration and volume you want.

2. turn the calibration off for music. This will increase your room response, but you may not like the sound or integration.

3. Add a second sb12+. For music it makes sense to run dual subs get more even output throughout a room. Especially with a high crossover point.

Running stereo bass would be the best IMO for music, but you need the space to do it.

Changing to a pb12+/2 will give awesome headroom, but the added low end response will only be apparent for HT. Music doesn't often go below 30 Hz, unless you listen to orchestral pipe organ stuff. Therefore for music, a second SB12+ is preferable.

Also consider pulling your two main channels out from the wall as much as possible. You may get much better response from them.


I usually listen to 2 channel critically without my sub. My towers are flat to 30 Hz. But there isn't a lot of bass in the blues, jazz, folk, even rock music I listen to. For easy rock music listening (multitasking) I often use the sub with the calibration turned off. It is more boomy, but I don't mind for the multitasking times.

FWIW when I add the sub calibrated to my towers (and towers let to large, swapping to small) for music it really doesn't add much bass to the sound, showing me that the speakers are doing their job and that the source material isn't bass heavy. The perceived lack of bass is just that, a perception, and a personal preference.



kw........
If I change crossover from 80 to 60 or even 40 that would mean less lows at the sub and mor at the mains IF the mains were set to small RIGHT ?
What do you mean turn off the calabration
for music ?

If I change crossover from 80 to 60 or even 40 that would mean less lows at the sub and mor at the mains IF the mains were set to small RIGHT ?
What do you mean turn off the calabration
for music ?


Lowering the crossover on the sub means less high frequency bass by the sub. The low frequency bass does not change. Your AV receiver determines the crossover between the channels and the sub. You should find out what the crossover frequency of your AV receiver is if it lists it in the menu as large or small, and then always match it on your sub.

If you set the AV receiver crossover to small and it is 80 Hz, and then you set the sub crossover to 40 Hz, you won't have your speakers or your sub playing bass from 40-80Hz! In essence you will be missing all 40-80 Hz bass.

One of the neat things you can do with an SVS because of its options is set the sub crossover to disabled, and allow the receiver alone to handle the crossover duties.

Otherwise, set your mains to small, find out what that crossover frequency actually is and set the sub to the same. Eg, if it is 40 Hz for the AV receiver when set to small, set it to the same for the sub. You can also try it at the large setting and see what you think of the difference.



As for calibration I have an ART 351 EQ I use in a parametric manner in line with the sub output to get a flat response on the sub. And with this piece I can literally defeat it at the push of a button whereby it bypasses the unit. Having a dedicated parametric eq (art 351, BFD, SMS-1) is advantagous for trying this out. And they are superior to parametric eq options stock on the SVS.

Make sense?

kw.......

I am using a denon 3805 AVR and have the the crossover disabled on the sub

My home theater KEF2000 sub just went belly up (buzzing) and I am considering getting a PB10-NSD. Overall I have been satisfied with the performance of the KEF sub (until it broke!). How will the PB10-NSD compare to it?

My home theater KEF2000 sub just went belly up (buzzing) and I am considering getting a PB10-NSD. Overall I have been satisfied with the performance of the KEF sub (until it broke!). How will the PB10-NSD compare to it?

Here are the rated specs on the KEF PSW2000:

Design Bass reflex, downward firing
Drive units LF: 210 mm (8")
Frequency response at 15°
horizontally off axis ±3 dB 35 Hz - 150 Hz
LF Corner -6 dB 33 Hz
Amplifier requirements 250 W built in
Maximum output 106 dB
Weight 14 kg (30.9 lbs)
Dimensions (H x W x D) 14.5 x 12.6 x 12.6 in.

The PB10-NSD will have a flatter frequency response, an additional octave of deep extension (expect 18 Hz in-room), much lower distortion at deep bass frequencies, and will also play louder overall with superior output linearity across the pass band.

My home theater KEF2000 sub just went belly up (buzzing) and I am considering getting a PB10-NSD. Overall I have been satisfied with the performance of the KEF sub (until it broke!). How will the PB10-NSD compare to it?
If you have room for the PB10 I believe you will love this sub.

Got the PB-12Plus/2 yesterday. Originally I called BAX and they said theyd come at 2pm. I said would it be possible to move it to 4pm? and they said sure. Then at 5pm I called the local office and they said "oh sorry we stopped making deliveries for today, we'll bring it by on monday". I was incensed but I was too tired to argue, so I just hung up. Then to my surprise, i hear a knock at the door at 7pm, and its the sub. So I went from excited to depressed to excited again. Anyway its here, and I'm still playing around with positioning it. Here are some pics:

http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/8482/dscf1921gu7.jpg

http://img264.imageshack.us/img264/3482/dscf1923or4.jpg


btw, does anyone hear a 'pop' in the subwoofer everytime they change the channel or input on their cable box? I set the front speakers to 'small' and set the crossover for the sub to 80hz, and everytime i interrupt the source signal, i hear a 'pop'. Its very irritating. Anyone else getting that?

very nice

btw, does anyone hear a 'pop' in the subwoofer everytime they change the channel or input on their cable box? I set the front speakers to 'small' and set the crossover for the sub to 80hz, and everytime i interrupt the source signal, i hear a 'pop'. Its very irritating. Anyone else getting that?

Your AVR is not muting the speaker/subwoofer outputs when you are switching source signals - it's a fairly common problem.

the pre-pro is a Rotel RSP-1068. Is there any way to fix it? Right now I have the crossovers disabled in the pre-pro and am using the one on the subwoofer itself, and that has fixed it, but i'm wondering if I can do it on the pre-pro or if there's any advantage to using the crossover in the pre-pro vs the one on the sub.

the pre-pro is a Rotel RSP-1068. Is there any way to fix it? Right now I have the crossovers disabled in the pre-pro and am using the one on the subwoofer itself, and that has fixed it, but i'm wondering if I can do it on the pre-pro or if there's any advantage to using the crossover in the pre-pro vs the one on the sub.

Sorry cant help you with that problem. Just wanted to know if you tuned it down as far as it will go using the 2 plugs and 16 HZ setting. I am going to tommorrow.
The Auto on mode was an issue with mine. Erik had me crank up my out put in the receiver and reduce the gain on the subwoofer. All seems well now. Watched Lord
of the Rings last night and it was unbelievable. I am definitly going to sell my Klipsch RSW-15 now. Told the wife one guy on the AVS forum has 4 of these in one room. Said i wouldnt mind having another ( very funny look ensued from wife).
She then said she needs patio furniture. We will start shopping tommorrow.

Told the wife one guy on the AVS forum has 4 of these in one room. Said i wouldnt mind having another ( very funny look ensued from wife).


And the Battle wages on.... hhahahhahaha Thats awesome...

If you have room for the PB10 I believe you will love this sub.

Plenty of room ;)

How is the quality? I was dissapointed in the failure of the KEF after 4 years of light/medium use.

Trucapce,

My '02 20-39PC+ (now at a friend's house) is still going as good as new, as is my '03 PB12-Ultra/2.

-Robb

The quality of SVS subs are probably excellent since most of their customers are more or less active on internet forums, but still the reports about broken subs are few and far between.

And if it should break down there is a 3 year warranty period, and when that expires the parts are reasonably priced and can easily be replaced by the user

Trucapce,

My '02 20-39PC+ (now at a friend's house) is still going as good as new, as is my '03 PB12-Ultra/2.

-Robb

Her comes a question due to my ignorance. On my PB12+2, where do I set the tuning Knob for the stock tune of 25HZ. Iunderstand 1 plug@20HZ,2 plugs@16HZ.
I have it currently in bypass . Are bypass and the 25 HZ setting the same thing?

You should remove all the plugs... and turn the knob to 25hz... that is the native tune of the Plus/2.

Well, a little Update here....

I bought my PB12-Plus in Piano Black and added it to my room not co-located with my Plus/2 and set it up per helpful blending instructions from Ed Mullen (thanks Ed).

I tuned them both the same at the 16hz tune and leveled it out a few db's less then the Plus/2 and they are perfect together... The bass with the both of these subs is fantastic and really smooth's out the bass responce in my huge room perfectly... I don't think I will be able to go back to just one sub in this room again... I had intentions of taking this smaller sub to my bedroom once I get the rest of my stuff setup in there, but I know (as somone pointed out) I will end up having LF withdrawals then... So I might just have to order another Plus/2 for this room either before I remove it, or after...

It seriously looks amazing, Piano Black is just gorgeous although it will be a pain in the ass with my greasy fingered kid in this house, but worth the way it looks here..

I should be getting my SMS-1 next week and that should smooth out the responses a bit better, as Im not sure how the chart is plotting out right now.... too lazy...
So as a final note, joining a Plus/2 with a Plus is not a problem, and will work if need be, if setup properly..

But for now... Im grinning from ear to ear.... :)

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d109/Warpdrv/home%20theater/IMG_1927.jpg
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d109/Warpdrv/home%20theater/IMG_1926.jpg
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d109/Warpdrv/home%20theater/IMG_1924.jpg

For those folks who are interested in the new PB13 Ultra but are not so crazy about the perforated grill, check out the new fabric alternative grill:


http://www.svsound.com/products-sub-box-pb13ultra_altgrill.cfm

Now we're talkin'!

I agree 100%.... that metal grill reminded me of obnoxious looking grills they used on car subs back when I was in highschool.. just not as bad... I would much rather the cloth grill...

Now that would put me in the running for a PB13 Ultra.... :)

Warp

How would a PB12+2 work with a MBM-12 from HSU?

I finally moved out of the house and into an apartment... new nearfield arrangement for the Ultras:

http://my.fit.edu/~jgillow/images/HT/Dualcs_sm.jpg (http://my.fit.edu/~jgillow/images/HT/Dualcs.jpg)

Needless to say they are now tuned to 12 Hz and won't get to stretch their legs anymore.

Some vertical space usage for all the other stuff:

http://my.fit.edu/~jgillow/images/HT/Equipment_sm.jpg (http://my.fit.edu/~jgillow/images/HT/Equipment.jpg)

I had to compromise on the surround positioning too, all but one of them is very close to a wall. Ah well, at least they are symmetric.

How would a PB12+2 work with a MBM-12 from HSU?

I would pose this question to SVS and see what they say, they are honest and will give a good answer....
What speakers are you running?
What size is your room...?

Did you chart the room responce (measure with spl meter)?

What are you trying to accomplish here or what exactly is the problem...

I personally and plenty others feel that the MBM is a band aid for something, like your mains are too small to match up with your sub... Most mains will easily play down to 80hz, and your sub will have no problem with reaching that area what-so-ever... I have one... Plus/2 is awesome, and I just added a Plus to the system for more pounding, and they blend seamlessly...

I finally moved out of the house and into an apartment... new nearfield arrangement for the Ultras:



Needless to say they are now tuned to 12 Hz and won't get to stretch their legs anymore.

Some vertical space usage for all the other stuff:


I had to compromise on the surround positioning too, all but one of them is very close to a wall. Ah well, at least they are symmetric.

All that stuff in an apartment! Somehow I don't think you're going to end up on your neighbor's Christmas card list! :D

I finally moved out of the house and into an apartment... new nearfield arrangement for the Ultras:

http://my.fit.edu/~jgillow/images/HT/Dualcs_sm.jpg (http://my.fit.edu/~jgillow/images/HT/Dualcs.jpg)

Needless to say they are now tuned to 12 Hz and won't get to stretch their legs anymore.

Some vertical space usage for all the other stuff:

http://my.fit.edu/~jgillow/images/HT/Equipment_sm.jpg (http://my.fit.edu/~jgillow/images/HT/Equipment.jpg)

I had to compromise on the surround positioning too, all but one of them is very close to a wall. Ah well, at least they are symmetric.


WOW.....how does that sound on WOTW and PULSE and FOTP???

Tuned to 12hz you really have to be FEELING everything like crazy!!

I actually haven't watched a movie yet in the new place... waiting for a Fri/Sat night when I'm not busy doing something else. Music has been good though, well as good as it can be at "normal" levels ;) I'm glad I still have the bass shakers, I can boost them to get more effect without taking the sub level too high.

I would pose this question to SVS and see what they say, they are honest and will give a good answer....
What speakers are you running?
What size is your room...?

Did you chart the room responce (measure with spl meter)?

What are you trying to accomplish here or what exactly is the problem...

I personally and plenty others feel that the MBM is a band aid for something, like your mains are too small to match up with your sub... Most mains will easily play down to 80hz, and your sub will have no problem with reaching that area what-so-ever... I have one... Plus/2 is awesome, and I just added a Plus to the system for more pounding, and they blend seamlessly...


I have Rocket 760, bigfoot and 300's. I had a Martin Logan Grotto but dumped it to a friend so I have no sub right now. The ML was good for some music but not what I had in mind for HT. (which is why I made the room)

I have a 4" treated front wall with Bass Traps up to 50 inches from floor. (WAF) could not go all the way to ceiling up front. 46" treatment up from Floor all the way around at 1.5 inches. 2 floor to ceiling 24" base traps on both rear corners. and front 8 feet is of ceiling is treated as well.

Mains speakers sound great right now but the ML Grotto during a 200hz - 20hz run on DVE (or Avia-can't remember) I was losing a ton of db from about 60 hz down to 30hz.

Room is 18x12x8 with a 5 foot opening just beyond the middle of the room on the left side that leads to a short hallway up some stairs.

Just being subless (Even with the Grotto) is killing me.

I love the look of the SVS Plus and Plus 2 Glossy but not sure if it is my room that is causing the db drop (I am sure it is) and if a larger 12" sub and a SMS-1 would help that along with the MBM.

I am not into the look of the HSU subs. Just my opinion on it.

I am still a newbie on Subs.

well don't I feel like an idiot.

Got an email from SVS a couple of days ago. I had ended up ordering a 16-46PC+ and it was delivered just before I headed out of town for a trip. Sounded pretty good on a quick calibration, but lacking a little in punch.

Yesterday, while still out of town, I got an email from SVS saying there may have been a problem, asking for the SN and asking me how many ports it had up top. I got back today to find that they had mistakenly shipped a 16-46 PCi rather than a PC+ (but they sent the PC+ instructions and presumably the PC+ power cord). Kudos to them for sending the email. I would certainly HOPE that I would've caught it after a while, but ya never know...

I emailed them back, and await an email/phone call tomorrow (hopefully) regarding where we go from here. So what would you guys do? My room is 4500 cubic feet, and I was a little concerned as to whether or not a single PC+ would do the trick for my setup. What if I tried out duals w/ the 16-46PC+ and the 16-46PCi? I don't see why they wouldn't do well as duals. If having those 2 did the trick, what would you expect the discount might be on the PCi? I realize this is entirely speculative, as it probably happens very rarely, but I have to admit that it would be a bit of a PITA to send it back, and I had strongly considered duals anyway before I placed the order.

Maybe I should choose to see this as fate trying to will me to dual subs...:D

well that was fast!

just got a couple of emails from Erik at SVS (gotta love the after-midnight CS emails :D), and it looks like I'll get to try out duals and see if I want to return the PCi. No price talk as of yet, but no reason to cross that bridge until we get there.

Thumbs up from here for SVS CS.:)

You might be able to swing a big discount. You would save them the return freight, get your return customer discount on the +, and whatever they would discount the PCi for B stock. Maybe $200 total.

well that was fast!

just got a couple of emails from Erik at SVS (gotta love the after-midnight CS emails :D), and it looks like I'll get to try out duals and see if I want to return the PCi. No price talk as of yet, but no reason to cross that bridge until we get there.

Thumbs up from here for SVS CS.:)

In my opinion I would get a second + sub... the drivers are different in those models, and Im not sure how they would meet each other in responses.

I have a Plus/2 in my 8200^3 room and I wasn't really looking for a second sub as much as a sub for my bedroom, but I was going to blend the two temporarily, and the PB12-Plus matches perfectly to the Plus/2...

You are lucky though, as you can try them out and tell us what you think... without paying for the shipping...

Nice that SVS caught it before you even did... thats great service.. :)

I have Rocket 760, bigfoot and 300's. I had a Martin Logan Grotto but dumped it to a friend so I have no sub right now. The ML was good for some music but not what I had in mind for HT. (which is why I made the room)

I have a 4" treated front wall with Bass Traps up to 50 inches from floor. (WAF) could not go all the way to ceiling up front. 46" treatment up from Floor all the way around at 1.5 inches. 2 floor to ceiling 24" base traps on both rear corners. and front 8 feet is of ceiling is treated as well.

Mains speakers sound great right now but the ML Grotto during a 200hz - 20hz run on DVE (or Avia-can't remember) I was losing a ton of db from about 60 hz down to 30hz.

Room is 18x12x8 with a 5 foot opening just beyond the middle of the room on the left side that leads to a short hallway up some stairs.

Just being subless (Even with the Grotto) is killing me.

I love the look of the SVS Plus and Plus 2 Glossy but not sure if it is my room that is causing the db drop (I am sure it is) and if a larger 12" sub and a SMS-1 would help that along with the MBM.

I am not into the look of the HSU subs. Just my opinion on it.

I am still a newbie on Subs.

Did you have a budget? If you could swing 2 Piano Black Plus's in that room, that would be monsterous, and help balancing out room modes in a rectangular room, even 1 would sound awesome... The sale on the Piano Black was very attractive to me... And I might grab a second Plus/2 before the deal is over...

I really had no idea that 2 subs in my room would sound so much better, but the difference is 100% better, and I can't wait to get my Velodyne SMS-1 to smooth out the FR...

Really sounds like you have done a great job on that room with treatments, good job, and I really don't think that MBM is your answer... Your Rockets are plenty in the mid bass area IMO...

I assume most if not all of you guys are present SVS owners. I don't own one yet, but am seriously considering it. My question is how did you guys decide on SVS without being able to hear or feel one? I know you can always send it back, but that costs $. What other brands did you consider?

I have a complete Paradigm Monitor setup with an older M&K sub, a V1B. My dealer is really trying to talk me into a Paradigm PW-2200. I can get it for right at $900. The PB-12 plus I am looking at is a couple of hundred more with shipping.

The other night I began typing a long post about room size and listening habits and about midway I stopped and ordered a PB12-NSD lol. It's scheduled to deliver Friday, along with the HD DVD Matrix trilogy, and I'm freaking out with anticipation.

My room is just over 1300 ft^3, and the only sub from SVS that I can fit in the available locations beneath my screen is the PB12, my only concern was getting 1 or 2 :) . I'll post impressions after the weekend.

Ralph

I assume most if not all of you guys are present SVS owners. I don't own one yet, but am seriously considering it. My question is how did you guys decide on SVS without being able to hear or feel one? I know you can always send it back, but that costs $. What other brands did you consider?

I have a complete Paradigm Monitor setup with an older M&K sub, a V1B. My dealer is really trying to talk me into a Paradigm PW-2200. I can get it for right at $900. The PB-12 plus I am looking at is a couple of hundred more with shipping.Most of us took the plunge from word of mouth on these forums, but I got a chance to hear a friends PB10. I had owned a Velo DPS10 and a couple of Cadence XSubs and tried a Klipsch Sub 10. The PB10 sounded amazing in comparison. I eventually ordered a 20-39+. Very few find any negatives about their purchase, though size is usually always mentioned :D .

I assume most if not all of you guys are present SVS owners. I don't own one yet, but am seriously considering it. My question is how did you guys decide on SVS without being able to hear or feel one? I know you can always send it back, but that costs $. What other brands did you consider?

I have a complete Paradigm Monitor setup with an older M&K sub, a V1B. My dealer is really trying to talk me into a Paradigm PW-2200. I can get it for right at $900. The PB-12 plus I am looking at is a couple of hundred more with shipping.

Do you live in the US? $900 sounds really high for a PW-2200. MSRP is $799 last I heard.

The PW-2200 is a good retail brand sub, but it can't hold a candle with even the $600 PB12-NSD <40 Hz. It has more output >50Hz, but only by a 1 or 2 dB's. Compared to a PB12+, it just doesn't hold up.

If your dealers carries PSB subs, than the Subseries 6i, would be a good buy @ $800.

Before you buy anything, call or email SVS and describe your listening tastes, and room size, and let them make a recommendation for you. They may surprise you with something that can save you a couple of bucks.

In my opinion I would get a second + sub... the drivers are different in those models, and Im not sure how they would meet each other in responses... Probably depends a lot on placement. It could be an issue if they are co-located, but two separate locations are likely to create different room responses even if the subs were identical.

I have a 16-46 PC+ and a PB12-NSD (another cylinder would not fit) and they blend beautifully. In my case the PC+ is in a front corner behind the TV and the PB12 is about half as far away in a rear corner directly behind my listening position. After getting the PB12, I changed the PC+ to 12Hz tune and seem to have the best of both worlds, very deep extension as well as all the power I was looking for over 20Hz. I also achieved my primary objective, which was to smooth out room response over several listening positions.

Of course, having a SMS-1 to help integrate everything certainly helped.

In any case, using the PCi and PC+ together is certainly worth a try, NewOrlnsDukie. Just don't be too disappointed if the discount isn't as large as has been suggested. The cylinders don't cost as much to ship as the boxes, and the B-Stock markdown on a PCi is usually about $50, so even a $100 discount would be a good offer. My experience has been that SVS is more than fair.

The other night I began typing a long post about room size and listening habits and about midway I stopped and ordered a PB12-NSD lol. It's scheduled to deliver Friday, along with the HD DVD Matrix trilogy, and I'm freaking out with anticipation.

My room is just over 1300 ft^3, and the only sub from SVS that I can fit in the available locations beneath my screen is the PB12, my only concern was getting 1 or 2 :) . I'll post impressions after the weekend.

Ralph
Congratulations. You'll love your PB12-NSD. I like duals to smooth room response, but for sheer output, one PB12 in a 1300 cu. ft. room is more than enough for 99.9% of the world! One easily fills my room, which is twice as big as yours. :)

Because it is near the bottom of SVS's line, the PB12 seems to be a bit underrated, IMO. It doesn't seem to get as much respect as I think it deserves. Test results I've observed recently seem to confirm my impression that it will hold it's own against the middle or higher level models in some other lines. (Well, that's my unsubstantiated opinion, and I'm sticking to it :p )

I made a mock sub out of foam poster board last night to see how big the PB13 would actually be and its huge. Really not sure if it will work in my location. The wife gave approval for it before and never thought it would be as large as it turned out. Was really looking forward to it, but not sure if the size will be okay. I would highly recommend building a mock-up if you are unsure about size.

Bill3508

Do you live in the US? $900 sounds really high for a PW-2200. MSRP is $799 last I heard.

The PW-2200 is a good retail brand sub, but it can't hold a candle with even the $600 PB12-NSD <40 Hz. It has more output >50Hz, but only by a 1 or 2 dB's. Compared to a PB12+, it just doesn't hold up.

If your dealers carries PSB subs, than the Subseries 6i, would be a good buy @ $800.

Before you buy anything, call or email SVS and describe your listening tastes, and room size, and let them make a recommendation for you. They may surprise you with something that can save you a couple of bucks.
Heres a link to the Paradigm PW-2200 page. It's msrp is $999. Considering the $900 is including tax my dealer is cutting a little bit of a deal.http://www.paradigm.com/en/paradigm/subwoofer-pw-pw2200-model-5-11-4-7.paradigm

However I do think, from what I've read here, the SVS would outperform it.

My dealer carries Paradigm, Definitive, and B&W.

Thanks for the advice, I'll call SVS.

Heres a link to the Paradigm PW-2200 page. It's msrp is $999. Considering the $900 is including tax my dealer is cutting a little bit of a deal.http://www.paradigm.com/en/paradigm/subwoofer-pw-pw2200-model-5-11-4-7.paradigm

However I do think, from what I've read here, the SVS would outperform it.

My dealer carries Paradigm, Definitive, and B&W.

Thanks for the advice, I'll call SVS.

SAVES ...lol

SAVES ...lol
Yeah sorry, I hit the wrong key doing the spell check.....I thought I caught it in time. I guess not for everybody. For anybody else wondering, spell check decided SVS should be "saves".

I assume most if not all of you guys are present SVS owners. I don't own one yet, but am seriously considering it. My question is how did you guys decide on SVS without being able to hear or feel one? I know you can always send it back, but that costs $. What other brands did you consider?

I have a complete Paradigm Monitor setup with an older M&K sub, a V1B. My dealer is really trying to talk me into a Paradigm PW-2200. I can get it for right at $900. The PB-12 plus I am looking at is a couple of hundred more with shipping.
I bought an SVS sub a few years ago based on word of mouth. I also bought a HSU sub and directly compared the two. The Hsu was better sounding sub overall but if I hadn't compared I probably would have thought the SVS was great. That's the problem with high end subs and especially the problem with buying over the Internet. You can't directly compare the SVS or HSU to anything else directly as you can in a listening room.

If you do decide to try an SVS I would suggest you also bring the Paradigm sub home and directly compare the two. Paradigm subs are very tight and musical and may blend better with your Paradigm system. The SVS are somewhat boomy in comparison and I couldn't get them to mesh as well with my Divas as the Hsu did. Just an unbiased suggestion from one that doesn't own SVS. YMMV. :)

Yeah sorry, I hit the wrong key doing the spell check.....I thought I caught it in time. I guess not for everybody. For anybody else wondering, spell check decided SVS should be "saves".

I thought maybe it was secret code for the 3 letter word :eek:

:) email notification :cool: