What about the best colorimeters for LCD displays (including direct view & FPJs)?

Regards,

Kopa13

Most to less accurate
i1 Pro > DTP-94 > Spyder2 > i1 Display

The spyder2 does appear more accurate than the i1D2 for white point chromiticity measurements on plasmas, but not so for total luminance and it has shown some large errors in the green primary chromiticity. It also suffers from lower sensitivity than the D2. For those reasons I prefer the D2 over the spyder on plasmas.

Since we are asking about other display types, what about the best colorimeters for CRT displays especially front projection (electrohome 8500) but also rear projection and direct view?

Thanks,
Ken

Here is some interesting information on the performance of various colorimeters:

http://www.homecinema-fr.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=29838162

I don't know french, but I could follow the basic results. You can also use babelfish or some other translation software if you need to.

as far as LCD i would say the i1d2 is far more accurate than a spyder!!! i own both & the results with the i1 are much better than that with the spyder. spyder tends to lean more towards red when performing grayscale calibration!!!!

just my 2 cents
Carmine

The spyder2 does appear more accurate than the i1D2 for white point chromiticity measurements on plasmas, but not so for total luminance and it has shown some large errors in the green primary chromiticity. It also suffers from lower sensitivity than the D2. For those reasons I prefer the D2 over the spyder on plasmas.

Good feedback. BTW, can't remember what other thread you posted some comparisons between i1Pro/i1 Display, any recent interesting findings?

as far as LCD i would say the i1d2 is far more accurate than a spyder!!! i own both & the results with the i1 are much better than that with the spyder. spyder tends to lean more towards red when performing grayscale calibration!!!!
Absolutely agree. Also, Spyder is slooooow!

Good feedback. BTW, can't remember what other thread you posted some comparisons between i1Pro/i1 Display, any recent interesting findings?



That thread is here. (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=844188) Other than the comparisons, I think the most interesting thing that came out of those measurements was that the i1pro if used carefully is accurate to light levels lower than some calibrators realize. Also, at the end of the thread are some new measurements by Alan Sh using the platinum spyder showing it to be worse on his plasma than his vanilla spyder.

I have the Spyder2 and find that it makes the image way too green on my Sony SXRD RPTV. However the red/blue balance seems ok.

Well, it has been about 6 weeks since we last heard from the HCFR team. I was wondering if I could persuade them to provide us with an update? I'm sure everyone is eagerly awaiting V.2.

Nothing realy, things are progressing on v2.0... Coding is completed, tidy up too... Now the interesting (!) part remains, documentation, reports

I'm 100% with you Tom!!!
Can't wait to see the new version!!!!!

Carmine.

That thread is here. (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=844188) Other than the comparisons, I think the most interesting thing that came out of those measurements was that the i1pro if used carefully is accurate to light levels lower than some calibrators realize.

I wonder if such careful use of the i1pro could make it into HCFR?

Well, it has been about 6 weeks since we last heard from the HCFR team. I was wondering if I could persuade them to provide us with an update? I'm sure everyone is eagerly awaiting V.2.

Or even a 2.0 beta preview version.. even if it's in French or Chinese:). Hell, I can't tell the difference.

Well, be patient !

We have a nearly complete software, in French, English, and German. But no documentation at all. We plan to add one reporting feature, and a new language (Spanish). And it needs some testing...

Franckly speaking, we are late... not because of any kind of technical trouble, just because... hmmm... nobody in the team did anything since... june...

Georges

Franckly speaking, we are late... not because of any kind of technical trouble, just because... hmmm... nobody in the team did anything since... june...

Georges

Too bad it's not open source so that others could contribute....

Well, be patient !

We have a nearly complete software, in French, English, and German. But no documentation at all. We plan to add one reporting feature, and a new language (Spanish). And it needs some testing...

Franckly speaking, we are late... not because of any kind of technical trouble, just because... hmmm... nobody in the team did anything since... june...

Georges

The Color HCFR team is providing the world with software at no charge that matches or exceeds the capabilities of similar software at any price--including over $2K. I think good manners, if not self-interest, suggests that we should happily accept any timetable you feel like following! Thanks!

I know i speak for myself as well as all the other DIY'ers out there by saying we are 100% grateful to the entire HCFR team for their incredible contribution!!! But everyone knows what it's like to want to try something new!!!:)

we are 100% grateful to the entire HCFR team for their incredible contribution!!!...........Ditto.

Well after all it is the summer time and people do take holidays and time off. I'm gratefull for what they have all ready given us and when they get around to posting the new version then I'll be grateful again. Thanks for the version we have how.

Hi,

Thanks guys for your support, as Georges says we all take quite a large holliday season this year :D :D ... But no worries, V2.0 will come... this year :D (there is actually some lucky beta testers ;))

--Patrice

Cool! Lucky them...!

I can't wait to try out the new version!!!!!

Without wading through the entire 93 pages, how easy is it to use this software? Does it give suggestion such as "add colour", or "reduce brightness" etc? Also I take it that the software will come in English soon?

hey David. Unfortunately the software doesnt make recommendations on "adding color, etc." It isn't too difficult to use but a basic knowledge of calibration (which can easily be acquired here at AVS) is needed. If you need some assistance, myself & many other here on the boards I'm sure will lend a hand. It is wise to start "wading" thru the pages to get an idea of where to begin.

Good Luck
Carmine.

Also I take it that the software will come in English soon?Yes it does come in English. Well, that is, ver 1.22 comes in English. I assume 2.0 will be in English, also.

Hi,

Version 1.2 is in French, English and German; V2.0 will add Spanish ;)

We will have a "beginners" or guided mode, but cannot garanteed this will be in initial v2.0.

--Patrice

Hi,

Version 1.2 is in French, English and German; V2.0 will add Spanish ;)

We will have a "beginners" or guided mode, but cannot garanteed this will be in initial v2.0.

--Patrice

thank you, thank you, thank you!!!!!

hey David. Unfortunately the software doesnt make recommendations on "adding color, etc." It isn't too difficult to use but a basic knowledge of calibration (which can easily be acquired here at AVS) is needed. If you need some assistance, myself & many other here on the boards I'm sure will lend a hand. It is wise to start "wading" thru the pages to get an idea of where to begin.

Good Luck
Carmine.

I've done basic calibration from the LD days using VE, then DVE, Avia and now HD DVE. However, by looking at the charts, I don't know what to add, what to reduce etc. Of course, at this moment I'm waiting for my replacement Spyder2 sensor from Colorvision before I can try the software out. (I've been using Spyder2Pro since its first day for all my PC and laptop monitors)

TomHuffman started a great Calibration Thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10632798#post10632798) with excellent explanation as to what to do. Great for starters.

Hi guys.

I have made a HCFR probe, but I have one problem.
I don't understand how the calibration files work and why there are different files for different projectors. I thought that the probe should be calibrated according to the D65 standard and then used to calibrate any projector.

I have a Epson TW600 and I use black theatre1 mode. Which file should I use?
I'm also thinking of buying a TW1000. Will I be able to use the probe with it?

I appreciate any reply.

Thanks.

Nevermind.

I did a little search and found the answers in this Thread.

Great Thread!

I am trying to understand the basic gamma calculation done by HCFR (the first option). The way I understand it from here: URL="http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=9386895&postcount=1243"]http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=9386895&postcount=1243 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9386895#post9386895) And from this: After approximation brightness (L) is expressed according to the signal (V) using the equation:
[1] L = V^gamma
Isn't the L in the equation the same as Y given by HCFR? How do I calculate it myself from the raw data (x,y,Y)? I must be missing something because when I try to back calculate it using the numbers given by HCFR I get a different answer.

I am trying to understand the basic gamma calculation done by HCFR (the first option). . . How do I calculate it myself from the raw data (x,y,Y)?All you need is the Y data. Gamma is calculated as an exponent of the input level.

For example, say you measure 100% stimulus to give a Y of 70. It's easy to figure what the output would be at 50% stimulus at a known gamma. Let's assume a gamma of 2.2. Then the output at 50% stimulus should be 15.2.
.5^2.2=0.218
70*0.218=15.2

You can then calculate a target gamma curve across the entire range of stimulus based on a desired gamma, such as 2.2, and a known level of maximum output. Then just measure how far your display deviates from this curve at each measured point.

Well, Tom, once again you've taken the murky and made it crystal clear. Thanks again!

I tried searching this thread but I did not find an anwser. Tried measuring also last night but I did not see a clear result wether continuos mode can be used with CIE chart. Should it work or are there some steps that need to be taken before it works? :confused:

Yes, the continuous mode works in the CIE chart. Typically, movement is slight if you are adjusting the color but a little more visible if adjusting the tint (especially cyan). The current reading is indicated by a yellow (I think it is yellow) dot. If you change color, you will see the dot move from point to point. Hope this helps.

Yes, HCFR draws all the points in the continuous measurement table on the CIE diagram. IIRC the older points are gray and the current point is yellow.

One difference is that if you hover the cursor over one of the points from the primary/secondary measurements, HCFR will show you the delta-E between the measured point and the reference standard. It doesn't do that with the continuous measurement points because it doesn't really know which color they're supposed to be. That's unfortunate, because when you're tweaking the colors you probably want to stop with the point of minimum delta-E, but I understand why it doesn't show it....

Should it work or are there some steps that need to be taken before it works? :confused:

you have to right click on the diagram and enable display continuous measures.

Got a Eye One Display LT a few days ago, and hooked it up to the PC today. HCFR gvies the option to calibrate it. Place on planar surface, and press button. What is this calibration for? Black reference? Also, the color temp taking continous readings in regular room lighting gave a very low colortemp, about 3000k. I hope it isn`t broken. Will try on the JVC-RS1 later tonight.

Gunnar

Here is how I found out about the planar surface:

I think I figured it out. I just did what it said to do. I put it on a flat surface, and from what I understand, the felt around the outside of the sensor closes out all the light.

I did the same. Seems to work ok. Gives consistent readings down to 10IRE with the JVC-RS1. greyscale is a bit below 6500k at the low end, and about 7000k at the high end. Gamma also a bit low at the high end for all three colors.
I put up a 60 IRE field and increased red and decreased blue with the offset sliders. Greyscale became better, but now the red gamma took a dive at the high end. Must do some more reading..

Gunnar

I just bought an eyeone display2 and installed it in vista but can't find the eyeone.dll file to use in HCFR :( can some one tell me where to find the eyeone.dll file.

Thanks in advance

Did you try a search?

I put up a 60 IRE field and increased red and decreased blue with the offset sliders. Greyscale became better, but now the red gamma took a dive at the high end. Must do some more reading..The RS1 lacks a full compliment of gray scale adjustments that would allow you to adjust the high-end and the low-end of the gray scale independently.

I'm just about thru the break in period on my new pioneer (8th gen kuro) plasma.
I have both a DTP-94 and a spyder 2 probes (I never trusted the S2).
What is the correct setting for a plasma set ???

Todd

DTP-94 crt mode will give you the best results.

hosko:

If you installed the eyeone software in the default location then
EyeOne.dll is localted in C:\Program Files\GretagMacbeth\i1\Eye-One Match 3

/Ingvar

Could the HCFR folks explain how they calculate dE?

For example on a gray scale run at I got
x 0.311
y 0.331

at 20 IRE. HCFR reports a dE of 4.33

However, I calculated it manually to be 2.11.

Are you including the deviation from the luminance target at the selected gamma? I ask because 2.11 is correct just for the xy deviation.

Could the HCFR folks explain how they calculate dE?

For example on a gray scale run at I got
x 0.311
y 0.331

at 20 IRE. HCFR reports a dE of 4.33

However, I calculated it manually to be 2.11.

Are you including the deviation from the luminance target at the selected gamma? I ask because 2.11 is correct just for the xy deviation.


I'm not with HCFR, but I did come across this a while back if it helps you: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=10817633&postcount=1002 There is more info about it in the posts above as well. Apparently, HCFR's dE only represents the chromacity error and does not include the lightness error.

hosko:

If you installed the eyeone software in the default location then
EyeOne.dll is localted in C:\Program Files\GretagMacbeth\i1\Eye-One Match 3

/Ingvar

I spent ages looking in there but couldn't find anything. Scrolled down a little further and found C:\Program Files\Pantone and it was in there.

Now its all working :)

I'm not with HCFR, but I did come across this a while back if it helps you: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=10817633&postcount=1002 There is more info about it in the posts above as well. Apparently, HCFR's dE only represents the chromacity error and does not include the lightness error.Thanks. I see. They are using dE LCH u'v' and I was using dE CIELAB.

Thanks. I see. They are using dE LCH u'v' and I was using dE CIELAB.

They are updating it for version 2 to include deltaL.

Quick question regarding CRT tv and my eyeone LT probe. I tried to get some measurements using the CRT mode but kept getting errors when calibrating the internal sensor. I got some measurements when I used the LCD mode but I am not sure if they are valid. Is there a bug with CRT mode with the eyeone probe? I thought I read that in an earlier post but could not get to the answer.

Thanks.

You can probably allready use it... Problems are not that big.

As you may have noticed, we add Gretag Eyeone support to v1.2 and that was for EyeOne beamer, incidently the Display are also supported but, so far, we don't diferenciate the two probe familly, hence some probe options that are useless, some that are missing, and some that didn't work at all with Display version.

So far, Eyeone Display probes works is LCD mode but not in CRT mode (so the fourth CRT specialized sensor is not use, annoying on CRTs).

Calibrate sensor returns an error with Display, but you can use it anyway. That is not really annoying as Display are way more correct than other probes.

Another anomaly is some abnormaly long measurement time when use in LCD mode on CRTs projectors/screens (from 15sec on black to 80sec on white) but again measures are fine.

So to summarise :
- You cannot use the CRT mode
- CRTs measures are a bit painfull

Obviously we will fix this, it is actually the main on-going work, that is why I said there may be a bug fix release for this.

Hope it helps
--Patrice

Well I think I may have found my answer. I will use the LCD mode for measuring my CRT tv. The readings in the high end of the gray scale took a little longer but that's ok.

Well I think I may have found my answer. I will use the LCD mode for measuring my CRT tv. The readings in the high end of the gray scale took a little longer but that's ok.

I've used CRT mode no problems or errors. Do you have latest version?

I've used CRT mode no problems or errors. Do you have latest version?

When you calibrated the internal sensors, did a white patch show up in the upper left corner?????? I have version 1.22 which I believe is the latest. Maybe I am doing something wrong. I used it in LCD mode for my FP without a problem. Then when I try the CRT mode it gives me an error.

Hi , my Spyder 2 probe came yesterday. It did calibrate my LCD monitor with his colorvision express software without problems, but when i try do some measurements of my Epson TW1000 projector with the HCFR software i only get: CVSpyder DDL not found, cannot use Spyder II device. What should i doo that the HCFR software can comunicate with the Spyder? and what mens when i click on the symbol for measurement, that i writes:warning actual data will be lost? sorry but i am no computer expert, i use PC only for surfing and writing and i am little bit lost now. :(

Hi , my Spyder 2 probe came yesterday. It did calibrate my LCD monitor with his colorvision express software without problems, but when i try do some measurements of my Epson TW1000 projector with the HCFR software i only get: CVSpyder DDL not found, cannot use Spyder II device. What should i doo that the HCFR software can comunicate with the Spyder? and what mens when i click on the symbol for measurement, that i writes:warning actual data will be lost? sorry but i am no computer expert, i use PC only for surfing and writing and i am little bit lost now. :(

You need to go the Spyder folder and find that file it request. Copy and Paste in the HCFR folder where the HCFR executable file is at...This question comes up every couple of pages..;)

When you calibrated the internal sensors, did a white patch show up in the upper left corner?????? I have version 1.22 which I believe is the latest. Maybe I am doing something wrong. I used it in LCD mode for my FP without a problem. Then when I try the CRT mode it gives me an error.

Yes, white patch shows up. I go to 100% white window on Getgray, then have the sensor calibrated. Are you trying to calibrate the sensor from computer LCD? If so, you'll get the can't sync error. You need to calibrate form the CRT.

I go to 100% white window on Getgray, then have the sensor calibrated.OK I think I just pulled my head out of my pluge!:D I did not think about putting up the 100% on the CRT. I'll try again tonight. I hope others are learning from my mistakes. Thanks.

Hi, affter 3 hours of calibration my primaries pretty much sit on the wriht place on the CIE Diagram and the secondaries cross perfectly on 6500, but the symbols of the secodaries are pretty out of the triangle. Does this mesns they are still heavely oversaturated and i need to desaturate them to cover the little crosses of the ideal positions? sorry, i dont know how to insert the diagram here :(

and second questin:should (when measuring primaries and secondarie)i change the preferences to 0-255 even when i using dvd player?

and second questin:should (when measuring primaries and secondarie)i change the preferences to 0-255 even when i using dvd player?

This gets asked every once in a while. Zoyd does a great job of answering them:

The setting for video levels (16-235 vs 0-255) has no effect when using external patterns (getgray).

but the symbols of the secodaries are pretty out of the triangle. Does this mesns they are still heavely oversaturated and i need to desaturate them to cover the little crosses of the ideal positions? sorry, i dont know how to insert the diagram here

Just right click on the CIE diagram and save as an image file. Then you should probably post it here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=786966) and ask any questions you have.

Thanks angryht! I got only to the page 20 or so...too much text to read and absorb :). I use the HCFR disk, but this should be the same as with Get Gray...( diagram is uploadet in the another thread)

Does the grayscale measurement just not work if the light level is too low? I'm using an Eyeone LT on LCD mode with an SXRD TV. I found things work a little better if I don't choose to average many reads on dark measurements, but I still can't necessarily get the program to work very well on the low readings. I had some problems with the program when 0% was showing a Y around 0.07, but now that I'm getting an initial Y of 0.045 the program just sits there and doesn't do anything at all if I give it the correct patterns. So the only thing I can think to do is to feed it a 20% pattern for the 0% and 10% measurements and then go back to fill in those from continuous readings. It works, but it's not exactly as quick as if the program would just get a few readings for 0% and 10% and then average them (there's not a whole lot of difference between the continuous readings). I just started using the program on Thursday so I'm hoping someone might have another way to deal with this.

Help !

I have an Xrite DTP94B coloimeter and I'm using version 1.2 of HCFR software. To take the reading I have the sensor on a tripod centred about 18" from the projection screen angled to avoid pointing at it's own shadow.

I keep the sensor in the same spot but I appear to be getting variations in the readings each time measure with making any adjustments. Is there some setting in the software that I need to change of am I doing something wrong ?

Any help appeciated.

D

To take the reading I have the sensor on a tripod centred about 18" from the projection screen angled to avoid pointing at it's own shadow.
If you are taking readings off the screen, you should be closer. I have mine about 3 to 4 inches away and angled at about 45 degrees.

Help !

I have an Xrite DTP94B coloimeter and I'm using version 1.2 of HCFR software. To take the reading I have the sensor on a tripod centred about 18" from the projection screen angled to avoid pointing at it's own shadow.

I keep the sensor in the same spot but I appear to be getting variations in the readings each time measure with making any adjustments. Is there some setting in the software that I need to change of am I doing something wrong ?

Any help appeciated.

D

My tripod setup keeps me from getting mine as close as 3-4 inches, but I get it within a foot. Less bright colors (ie. red) will give you greater variation, as will lower ire's. I have found that just a slight tip to the shadow made by the probe can really throw off your readings. I put at least a 45 degree angle on the probe relative to the screen to make sure I avoid the shadow. Another thing is to recalibrate the DTP-94 frequently, especially if the temperature in your room is changing by more than a degree or two.

Does the grayscale measurement just not work if the light level is too low? I'm using an Eyeone LT on LCD mode with an SXRD TV. I found things work a little better if I don't choose to average many reads on dark measurements, but I still can't necessarily get the program to work very well on the low readings. I had some problems with the program when 0% was showing a Y around 0.07, but now that I'm getting an initial Y of 0.045 the program just sits there and doesn't do anything at all if I give it the correct patterns. So the only thing I can think to do is to feed it a 20% pattern for the 0% and 10% measurements and then go back to fill in those from continuous readings. It works, but it's not exactly as quick as if the program would just get a few readings for 0% and 10% and then average them (there's not a whole lot of difference between the continuous readings). I just started using the program on Thursday so I'm hoping someone might have another way to deal with this.

I pretty much ignore readings below 20. Getting reliable readings below that is difficult. If you average your readings you might be able to work with 10, but forget 5 and 0, in my opinion.

My tripod setup keeps me from getting mine as close as 3-4 inches, but I get it within a foot. Less bright colors (ie. red) will give you greater variation, as will lower ire's. I have found that just a slight tip to the shadow made by the probe can really throw off your readings. I put at least a 45 degree angle on the probe relative to the screen to make sure I avoid the shadow. Another thing is to recalibrate the DTP-94 frequently, especially if the temperature in your room is changing by more than a degree or two.

Orwellflash, AngryHt thanks.


When measuring primaries/secondaries do I use 75% or 100% patterns. Also is a full screen of window pattern better ?

D

When measuring primaries/secondaries do I use 75% or 100% patterns. Also is a full screen of window pattern better ?Use the window patterns. I think typical is 75% because some displays show more errors at 100% but others may chime in with more details.

One additional comment: if you adjust your color decoder settings (Y or brightness of colors) following Tom Huffman's excellent tutorial, be sure to use 75% amplitude patterns (which can be 75% size windows as well) for both white and various colors--don't confuse 75% amplitude patterns with 75% window patterns. I made that mistake. 75% window refers to size; amplitude refers to brightness.

Hello to all and greetings from Finland.

I'm really a newbie on this calibration area and here is sooooo many pages of info.:confused: So can somebody give me a little jump start what I should do to getting started with this?:o
What settings should be used before any measurements can be started?
I probably can figure out the measuring process just by doing it, but if my settings are way off then I'm even more lost than now.

I have two devices what I would like get the best possible picture: Panasonic PT-AE900 projector and Sony KDL-32V2000 lcd television.

I have Spyder2 probe (with SpyderTV software installed) and I have planned to use my DVD player for test pattern source.
HCFR v1.22 software installed and pattern version 1.1.15 on the dvd disc.

Try this. It has some errors but will give you a general idea on how to get started with software: http://geekwithfamily.com/2006/12/16/home-theater/howto-hcfr-free-video-projector-calibration-software/

Download the zip file on this page and use as a general calibration guide: http://www.calibrate.tv/ (I have this calibration disc and highly recommend it)

Follow these directions for further help: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=852536&pp=30
A lot depends on the specific controls you have available to you with those two displays. I can't help you there. You can do a google search on "calibrating [those displays]" or look for reviews in which they are calibrated to get an idea of the controls you have to work with.

Hi guys,

There's something I don't understand about the HCFR probe.
I've built two of them and I get different results from the probes and the sensors (1 and 2). Is this normal?
I train the probe with Spyder2 and get delta E 2.7, but when I compare the greyscale result of this two different probes, they are not the same (+/- 2-6 delta E in difference).
This really questions my confedence regarding how precise the HCFR probe is.

balijoka

Hi,

It is normal you get some differences, usually 1-2 dE... That shoudl not be a problem to setup your system.
Can you post your files so I can have a look ?

--Patrice

Hi,

It is normal you get some differences, usually 1-2 dE... That shoudl not be a problem to setup your system.
Can you post your files so I can have a look ?

--Patrice

Hi,

Unfortunately I didn't save the files yesterday, so I have to make new measurements tonight. I will post my results when I'm done.

balijoka

Hi again.

Here are the files. I used HCFR TW600 natural file as reference and uncalibrated "theatre black 1" mode on the projector.

I also compared the results with Spyder2 and the difference is huge. I really don't know what to make of this.

Is this maybe a IR-filter issue?

I'm working on my Epson 810 and it's out of the box color gamut overshoots the Rec709 colorspace by quite a bit, so I decided to use the six axis RGBCMY controls to get everything lined up properly. Unfortunately I only have xy controls not Y, but I noticed that I can manipulate xy to increase/decrease Y.

So my question is...is it more desirable to have accurate colors that may not be perfect in Y...or is it more critical to get Y set correctly at the cost of xy?

One of the things that drove me nuts about the out of box performance of the 810 was the sunburned faces, now that I have all the colors within a DeltaE of less than 2 it looks much better. When I went back and calculated Y based on my 75% white measurement, I noticed that green was pretty low in Y...hence my question. By increasing green's saturation I can get Y back up, but I am not sure if that's what I really should be shooting for.

I hope this makes sense....
-patrick

I am with my TW1000 in a similar situation PLincoln. I only set the red Y number with the saturation control at the nearest possible level. The other thing i wanted to ask here: I need some help with setting my gamma right, how can i do it with HCFR and Spyder only, if i can?(TW1000 alowes to construct individual gamma curve) I now use the 2.4 setting on TW1000 becose after setting the color right, the picture get much brighter and looked too wasched out. I still cant go with the brightness lower when i dont want to lose shadow detail.

only one thing, i see here two guys with epson projektors balijoka and PLincoln and i want to ask them a off topic question:. Have you some problems with shading and have you not knowlige about a service menu or something to get rid of it?(like on the Hitachis TX100-200)

Hi,

What can I use as a IR cut-off filter?


Balijoka

only one thing, i see here two guys with epson projektors balijoka and PLincoln and i want to ask them a off topic question:. Have you some problems with shading and have you not knowlige about a service menu or something to get rid of it?(like on the Hitachis TX100-200)

Yes..I've had shading problems with all my LCD projectors. It's the nature of the beast. I tend to be more picky than others, but I have learned to live with it since DLP's give me headaches.

FWIW, my Sony HS51A was much much worse than my Epson. The Sony had shading issues from one side of the screen to the other. With the Epson I only have it in the top left and bottom right hand corner, and it does not extend into the picture too far. On 2.35 movies it's not even an issue.

hey everyone well i just bought the TH50PX75u and the TH42PX75u on the 25th and im wondering whats a good ideal or a proper product to calibrate these tvs? costco has datacolor spydertv and i was thinking if this was a good ideal or a good investment? afterall if its not good i can just get my refund.

since i got the tv(s) i have set the settings to standard and everything is set to +0 its a bit dark but i did this due to the first hundred hrs.

i have H3 legendary and it has a rather basic calibration tool i belive but i didnt even understood this, any thoughts of what i should try to use?

any thoughts would help thanks in advance

Hi Patrice,

Have you had the time to take a look at the files yet?

My biggest consern is the difference between sensor 0 and 1 in probe 1.
You see that sensor 0 is very close to the Spyder, but sensor 1 is far off.

As I mentioned before, I don't use a filter. Could this be the problem? If so, what can I use?

Thanks in advance.

Hi PLincoln, on my Epson its more of the bigger issue you had with HS51. When i start the pj the whole riht side of the picture is darker as the ther rest(most drastical it can bee seen on the blue pattern or on snow in movies), something similar in narrover margin is on left too(1/3 of the left side). When the bulb gets warmer, it changes, to the half of the right side getting green tint. Strangely when i got the Epson there was not a shading issue to mention, it emerged when i began to try calibrate it(first without probe, now with it) and get worst and worst. I had shading on my TX100 Hitachi, but it could be controled pretty easily in the service menu. It looked diferent as the current issue on the Epson. Only my first pj- SVGA sanyo plv-30 had no shading and never get problems with it, but the qvality of the picture was pretty terrible compared to Epson.

talkron,

I have the exact same problem on my TW600 and I don't think there's anything we can do about it. Just have to live with it, I think.


balijoka

All you need is the Y data. Gamma is calculated as an exponent of the input level.

For example, say you measure 100% stimulus to give a Y of 70. It's easy to figure what the output would be at 50% stimulus at a known gamma. Let's assume a gamma of 2.2. Then the output at 50% stimulus should be 15.2.
.5^2.2=0.218
70*0.218=15.2

You can then calculate a target gamma curve across the entire range of stimulus based on a desired gamma, such as 2.2, and a known level of maximum output. Then just measure how far your display deviates from this curve at each measured point.


Hey Tom/All,
Several months back there was a long discussion about the use of the D2 probe (EyeOne Display LT) on plasmas. I believe it was reading red too high due to infared contributions. There was some talk of using filters, etc. I have been away for a long time. What was the outcome of the discussion?

Is the D2 just not suitable, or is the error small enough to live with? Is there a work around? Perhaps a calibration in HCFR? How can I achieve the best performance when using a D2 with a plasma monitor?

Thanks,
Rich

Using an IR filter does no good, it's a probe calibration problem not an IR leakage problem. It's not really solvable because each D2 will be a little different, so throwing in a correction factor based on a few probes performance will not be guaranteed to improve anything. Having said that, the error has been systematic across several probes and shooting for a color temp ~150K low is one option, or shooting for red ~4% high relative to green and blue. The CRT mode gives slightly better results but is not fully supported in HCFR. My opinion is that the error in grayscale is not that serious, I just did a pioneer elite using a D2 last weekend and it turned out great.

Hei

I have just bought the Eye-one display2 and downloaded the HCFR.

The problem is that the HCFR will not accept the probe...
I have used the "Pilot" driver but it still does not work,it only says :

"EyeOne.DLL not found.Cannot use Eye One device"

Great if some one could help me.

Thanks

Espen

You have to put the eyeone.dll in the HCFR directory somewhere IIRC.

Gary

Well I have copied it and added a new folder but I think I need the dummy version :o

Hi Everyone-

Please look at my latest calibration - Im having the darnest time trying to figure out whats going on with my gamma..there seems to be nothing in the SM to correct this issue for my Mits 65833 - on viewing material there seems to be no problem..Do I also have my CIE points in place - although I know green is shifted over through yellow, there seems to be no way for me to get it over to its ref point because Yellow wont shift over but I was able to get it to cross through the D65 white point...Any suggestions?? or is this a decent enough calibration..Loving the way it looks but Id like to squeeze out the most out of my set..

Well I have copied it and added a new folder but I think I need the dummy version :o
You don't have to create a new directory. Just copy the eyeone.dll in the main directory of HCFR. That should be enough.

balijoca/PLinkoln:thank for your shading inside(helps at least psychologically :)). As you both use Epsons, can you plese give my some advise how to best create personal gamma curve with the help of HCFR and Spyder? Is there way to measure gamma without going thrue all 10 IRE patterns? Affter the calibration it looks like my gamma with Epsons 2.4 setting is about 2.26 in the dark parts of the picture, but totaly off(1. something) in the lighter ones. And last but not least, when i get to the same results of blue on Cie chart with numerous variations of bias and saturation settings, would you use the lowest setting or that closest to ideal Y number of blue?

balijoca/PLinkoln:thank for your shading inside(helps at least psychologically :)). As you both use Epsons, can you plese give my some advise how to best create personal gamma curve with the help of HCFR and Spyder? Is there way to measure gamma without going thrue all 10 IRE patterns? Affter the calibration it looks like my gamma with Epsons 2.4 setting is about 2.26 in the dark parts of the picture, but totaly off(1. something) in the lighter ones. And last but not least, when i get to the same results of blue on Cie chart with numerous variations of bias and saturation settings, would you use the lowest setting or that closest to ideal Y number of blue?

SInce gamma is the exponent relating input level to brightness, each sample in the IRE pattern test gives you one gamma point. In order to say something about the gamma curve as a whole you really should take all 10 samples. THe more the better.

Since I have not seen your measured gamma, I can only hazzard a guess that perhaps your contrast is too high. When contrast is too high the gamma will match well with the target setting (2.6 in your case) for low to mid range IRE inputs but then start to flatten out (i.e., tend towards 1.x) in the upper end. The reason for this is that the light output is starting to max out.

Just a thought.

Rich

SInce gamma is the exponent relating input level to brightness, each sample in the IRE pattern test gives you one gamma point. In order to say something about the gamma curve as a whole you really should take all 10 samples. THe more the better.

Since I have not seen your measured gamma, I can only hazzard a guess that perhaps your contrast is too high. When contrast is too high the gamma will match well with the target setting (2.6 in your case) for low to mid range IRE inputs but then start to flatten out (i.e., tend towards 1.x) in the upper end. The reason for this is that the light output is starting to max out.

Just a thought.

Rich

Rich,

Would my case then just be that simple..HIGHER UP THE CONTRAST and maybe just a tad lower in BRIGHTNESS?? look at my file a few posting above..

balijoca/PLinkoln:thank for your shading inside(helps at least psychologically :)). As you both use Epsons, can you plese give my some advise how to best create personal gamma curve with the help of HCFR and Spyder? Is there way to measure gamma without going thrue all 10 IRE patterns? Affter the calibration it looks like my gamma with Epsons 2.4 setting is about 2.26 in the dark parts of the picture, but totaly off(1. something) in the lighter ones. And last but not least, when i get to the same results of blue on Cie chart with numerous variations of bias and saturation settings, would you use the lowest setting or that closest to ideal Y number of blue?


Hi talkron,

I use the gamma EQ. To achive correct gamma, it's best going thrue all ten IRE patterns. I know that Spyder is slow, but you have to be patience. The result will be worth the effort. Remember to do all the basic (contrast/brightness) adjustments first with DVE or AVIA. After this, you can start by adjusting the lower part of the gamma curve. I never adjust more than two points at a time.
It's important to get to know what the different controls on your Epson does. This way it will be easier to calibrate the projector.

balijoka

Rich,

Would my case then just be that simple..HIGHER UP THE CONTRAST and maybe just a tad lower in BRIGHTNESS?? look at my file a few posting above..

Unfortunately I can't read your file because I need admin rights in order to install hcfr on this PC and we don't have this here at work.

rpauls/balijoka:thanks for your imput! i will try to play with the gama(and contrast)over the weekend and see if i can get better results . I will probaly try create one set color settings with PLincols approach too, compromise of saturation and Y number(but even fully saturated my Y numbers are way to low...and actualy in some cases desaturation hightens the Y number...)

Hello
I apologize if this question has been answered before, (i have actually tread the whole tread but I might have missed it how to do it…)
We had a measurement Probe shootout yesterday a friend with a Eye-One PRO and one Eye-One Display were measured against my one Eye-One display. The measurements between my friends Eye-One Display and Pro were very similar, just minimal differences. The difference between my Eye-One display and the two other probes were bigger (aprox 500 Kelvin across the gray scale). I have enclosed a picture of the RGB levels histogram of the difference between my Eye-one and my friends Eye-One where you can see that there is a deviation across the line on all three colors but mostly on the red (Measurements taken under exact same conditions and placement of the probe.).

My question is there a possibility to put in an offset in CoourHCFR program for my probe so that they measure the same result (As you see the delta RGB does does change minimal on the different colors across the IRE levels) (the stapeled line my friends Probe). Can this be done having the two made measurements (can this be stored for future measurements) (step by step please)?
Or do I have to use the build using reference colorimeter? How do I do this (step by step please)?
Regards H

Hi Everyone-

Please look at my latest calibration - Im having the darnest time trying to figure out whats going on with my gamma..there seems to be nothing in the SM to correct this issue for my Mits 65833 - on viewing material there seems to be no problem..Do I also have my CIE points in place - although I know green is shifted over through yellow, there seems to be no way for me to get it over to its ref point because Yellow wont shift over but I was able to get it to cross through the D65 white point...Any suggestions?? or is this a decent enough calibration..Loving the way it looks but Id like to squeeze out the most out of my set..

The fitting function you used, optimized regression, is not doing a very good job at your low IRE's and this is skewing the whole curve upwards. If you use display with black compensation you'll get a flatter curve near your 2.2 target so it looks pretty good to me. You can lower your 10IRE response a bit using brightness so that it reads 0.8 and lower your contrast a tick or two to flatten out the high end.

The fitting function you used, optimized regression, is not doing a very good job at your low IRE's and this is skewing the whole curve upwards. If you use display with black compensation you'll get a flatter curve near your 2.2 target so it looks pretty good to me. You can lower your 10IRE response a bit using brightness so that it reads 0.8 and lower your contrast a tick or two to flatten out the high end.

Otherwise - it looks good..how about CIE

You can lower your 10IRE response a bit using brightness so that it reads 0.8 zoyd,
Is this rationale based on this discussion (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11727256#post11727256):

For a 10->100 stimulus change and gamma=2.5, the signal should change by 10^2.5 = 316.2 1/316.2 = 0.0032 = 0.32% since his 100% Y is ~122 and targeting a 2.2 gamma? Just trying to follow the math. Thanks.

zoyd,
Is this rationale based on this discussion (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11727256#post11727256):

since his 100% Y is ~122 and targeting a 2.2 gamma? Just trying to follow the math. Thanks.

yes, if you do the math it turns out to be 0.78 at 10%.

Otherwise - it looks good..how about CIE

To see how it's doing with colors you have measure both CIE position (x,y) and color lightness (Y) ala Tom's thread and compute deltaE.

Hi there. I'm getting up and running and eager to try this software. I am up to page 29 of this thread so still have a long way to go to catch up. However, I have installed HCFR on an XP laptop and coupled up my i1Pro. My intention was to simply start with an initial greyscale reading to see how my Pioneer LX608D is at the moment (no further until I have read a lot more). BUt I have a problem out of the box. I get an error message "EyeOne.DLL not found. Can not use EyeOne device." The i1 works fine using i1Match software so I am puzzled. I'm sure it's something basic/obvious....

Thanks for the help

Steve

Hi there. I'm getting up and running and eager to try this software. I am up to page 29 of this thread so still have a long way to go to catch up. However, I have installed HCFR on an XP laptop and coupled up my i1Pro. My intention was to simply start with an initial greyscale reading to see how my Pioneer LX608D is at the moment (no further until I have read a lot more). BUt I have a problem out of the box. I get an error message "EyeOne.DLL not found. Can not use EyeOne device." The i1 works fine using i1Match software so I am puzzled. I'm sure it's something basic/obvious....

Thanks for the help

Steve

See post 2839 and follow the responses.

I think I've answered my own question (as I got to page 33). I had to copy the .dll file into the HCFR folder. Seems to be working but will also read the posts mentioned above. EDIT: yup. Thanks

Can I ask a newbie question about primaries? When I look at my LX608's CIE diagramme in HCFR I see a gamut that fully encompasses the target and goes beyond. Am I understanding this plot correctly - a staight line between two points represents the colours that can be achieved from mixing those two colours (only) and the boundary set by the primaries represents all possible colours at that luminance level? (What luminance level is the chart calculated at?) So if I constrain the primaries to target I am in effect reduce the gamut of the display? If my understanding is correct I guess you'll say "yes" but that it doesn't matter because the source is such that it doesn't have colours outside the target gamut.

(Sorry if this is stupid but I'm coming from a photography background where I want the biggest possible gamut.)

Can I ask a newbie question about primaries? When I look at my LX608's CIE diagramme in HCFR I see a gamut that fully encompasses the target and goes beyond. Am I understanding this plot correctly - a staight line between two points represents the colours that can be achieved from mixing those two colours (only) and the boundary set by the primaries represents all possible colours at that luminance level? (What luminance level is the chart calculated at?)


That's correct regarding mixing primaries to get all colors within the gamut. Regarding luminance, the CIE diagram does not display luminance (Y). It is a projection of the 3-d colorspace onto the x-y plane so it's possible to appear that you are inside or outside the gamut but you really don't know since the third dimension is left out. So for proper color calibration you need to calibrate the x,y position AND the Y luminance with respect to the white point as described in Tom Huffman's sticky thread.


So if I constrain the primaries to target I am in effect reduce the gamut of the display? If my understanding is correct I guess you'll say "yes" but that it doesn't matter because the source is such that it doesn't have colours outside the target gamut.


yes, that is the whole point of calibration, to reproduce the source gamut so that you see the colors that the producer/director/colorist intended.

OK I get it. I was thinking more about this. Because we're not "profiling" the display and using a colour management module to map between the source and destination colour spaces we're forced to hard map the destination to correspond with the source. A pity, as it would appear that the display is capable of much broader chromicity than DVD source. (So not a great computer graphics monitor.)

On topic: the grayscale patterns on HCFR DVD are marked in IRE, and the black one is marked as 0IRE. Should not it be marked as 0% Amplitude instead, considering that black is usually 7.5IRE?

Can I ask for clarification on this old post which was responded to by RichLo? Frankly as a newcomer to this I found it confusing to have something labeled 0IRE when it's not. 0% would be less confusing as the 0 step in a scale from 0-100 that equates to 7.5IRE and up (to 92IRE?) and a bit range of 16-235. Am I right in understanding that the test pattern labelling is still technically incorrect and that a 0IRE patch is asking the plasma to display a bit value of 16?

Sorry for the lots of questions today but I am doing a lot of reading through this thread (page 66 and counting) and other sources and it's throwing up a few questions. Does ColourHCFR have the ability to determine the light output of a display? I have read that one should calibrate to a max of between 32 and 40fL. Also, I come from a background of profiling my computer display with an i1Pro and one of the first steps in profiling is checking luminance (typically targeting 120cd/m2).

I can't take a look at the program at the moment because it's on my fiancee's work laptop (the only Windoze machine we have in the house and she's working at the moment).

Regards

Steve

Am I right in understanding that the test pattern labelling is still technically incorrect and that a 0IRE patch is asking the plasma to display a bit value of 16?

To be 100% accurate, the 0 IRE pattern is encoded at R,G,B = 16 (or whatever the YCbCr values are) in the disc. In other words, reference black.

What actually gets to the display will depend on you player and whether or not it does anything wacky in the decoding.

Can I ask for clarification on this old post which was responded to by RichLo? Frankly as a newcomer to this I found it confusing to have something labeled 0IRE when it's not. 0% would be less confusing as the 0 step in a scale from 0-100 that equates to 7.5IRE and up (to 92IRE?) and a bit range of 16-235. Am I right in understanding that the test pattern labelling is still technically incorrect and that a 0IRE patch is asking the plasma to display a bit value of 16?

So that you are aware, there is a NEW version of ColorHCFR coming (bigtime redesign) and Im sure this will be addressed appropriately..for now you will have to concern yourself with reading and asking - as you are doing..Wait till the new version ;)

FYI..It was not my posting though..

where o where is version 2.0, lol!!!!


Carmine.

where o where is version 2.0, lol!!!!
Carmine.
Me too :),
tomorrow, March 1st 08 or for sure somewhere in between.

I have to say I am extremely impressed with the current version!!

(richlo, I meant you responded to the post I quoted)

Regarding my other post above (2863) I managed to grab the laptop back for a bit. How do I interpret the luminance data in the contrast window in this context? (Is it already providing what I was asking about?)

My Pioneer LX608 display is currently reading:

On/Off 14,714
Ansi: 4
Luminance Max: 99.375
Luminance Min: 0.007

What is the scale here? My assumption is that it's Y. Is there a way for ColorHCFR to measure fL or cd/m2? (How do I convert between fL and cd/m2?)

Setting brightness (how did this term get so badly labelled?) is much more intuitive for me (given my B&W photography experience) but contrast less so.

Thanks again

Steve

EDIT: I now know that fL can be converted to cd/m2 by multiplying by 3.4262591

Hi a tryed to create a custom gamma curve on my TW1000 with HCFR and spyder and i get all(with exeption of 50, what is little bit too bright) 10IREs very near 2.22 but the result look very strange when projecting film, all looks pixelated and mapped and arteficial...what did i wrong, any imput please?

Hi a tryed to create a custom gamma curve on my TW1000 with HCFR and spyder and i get all(with exeption of 50, what is little bit too bright) 10IREs very near 2.22 but the result look very strange when projecting film, all looks pixelated and mapped and arteficial...what did i wrong, any imput please?


I had a similar result first time I adjusted my gamma. You have "overadjusted" and must start over again. Remember to adjust in smal steps and use brightness/contrast controls to adjust 10IRE/90IRE at the end of the procedure, if necessary. It's like I said before, you have to know what the different controls do on your projector.
TIPS: If you select ex. 70 IRE pattern on your calibration dvd and move up and down the gamma graph, the picture will blink when you're on the corresponding point of the graph.

Good luck.

What is the scale here? My assumption is that it's Y. Is there a way for ColorHCFR to measure fL or cd/m2?

HCFR just reports what the probe tells it, luminance probes like the spyder and i1 measure in cd/m^2.

HCFR just reports what the probe tells it, luminance probes like the spyder and i1 measure in cd/m^2.

Ok. And I assume that when doing a luminance test it asks for luminance rather than a color. Of course. So isn't a luminance of 99 and change rather low?

(My only point of comparison is the target luminance of my Apple HD Cinema Display which is calibrated at 120cd/m^2 and the posts mentioning that one should calibrate a plasma with a max luminance of 32-40fL.)

Thanks

Steve

EDIT: It's worth adding that while using the GetGray DVD on my Pioneer LX608D I could never drive the contrast high enough to blend out the WTW (as per instructions) - even when dialled up the whole way. I suspect I have a lot of headroom in the contrast setting from that which generated the peak luminance above but I'm worried about overblowing it. Gamma drops at that end of the scale with my current setting which I suspect also suggests it can be turned up a bit more. But to how much?

Could an expert/knowledgeable person please explain WHY it is adviced to clip W.T.W ?? I just don't understand this. It's been said that movie content doesn't contain info. beyond 235/white but I don't think that's true. Very likely there is some info. on many bright scenes if looking closely. Not only that, but driving digital displays at such high contrast setting (and still incapable of clipping WTW) severely decreases its life. To "ME" it almost seems like ill-advised.

Please knowledgeable members, post your own views/comments on this. Maybe we can better help new users at calibration.

Could an expert/knowledgeable person please explain WHY it is adviced to clip W.T.W ??

To maximize the dynamic range of the display over the normal, expected, valid signal range. (One of THE MAIN points of a calibration?) If you’ve reserved any of your displays capacity (brightness and contrast) for BTB/WTW signal excursions, then you haven’t maximized the capacity of the display for the normal, valid, expected, in gamut, signal range as you’re holding some of that display capacity in reserve for signal excursions that are by definition invalid, and out-of-gamut irrespective of the ifs, whens, whats and whys. Also, if BTB/WTW is clamped, then the BTB pixels that should be black- are black. Those BTB pixels would no longer represent an invalid, nonsensical, non-displayable, out-of-gamut triad and would be 'error corrected' to black. It also provides the option for compatibility with color spaces and calibrations that have no notion or use of BTB/WTW (PC sRGB)

Dave

Could an expert/knowledgeable person please explain WHY it is adviced to clip W.T.W ?? I just don't understand this. It's been said that movie content doesn't contain info. beyond 235/white but I don't think that's true. Very likely there is some info. on many bright scenes if looking closely. Not only that, but driving digital displays at such high contrast setting (and still incapable of clipping WTW) severely decreases its life. To "ME" it almost seems like ill-advised.

Please knowledgeable members, post your own views/comments on this. Maybe we can better help new users at calibration.

I'd suggest keeping the whole WTW discussion out of this thread. There are a couple of fairly heated threads here that have the entire back and forth arguement.

I will say that as with all things, setting maximum white is a compromise. I can get a much brighter white on my plasma than what it's currently set at but the resulting gamma curve and banding at certain spots in the greyscale makes the picture look like ass.

End result, I don't end up clipping WTW, but that's not because I intentionally set out to do that.

Ok. And I assume that when doing a luminance test it asks for luminance rather than a color. Of course. So isn't a luminance of 99 and change rather low?

(My only point of comparison is the target luminance of my Apple HD Cinema Display which is calibrated at 120cd/m^2 and the posts mentioning that one should calibrate a plasma with a max luminance of 32-40fL.)



Studio monitor reference is 100 cd/m^2 (total luminance of the white point). What you end up with depends on viewing conditions and display capabilities.

Studio monitor reference is 100 cd/m^2 (total luminance of the white point). What you end up with depends on viewing conditions and display capabilities.

Ok, then my 99.375 doesn't sound so bad! I'll watch the debate beginning above closely. Note that, using the GetGray DVD, I can not set contrast to produce a white point that knocks out WTW at any sensible setting. Only on the maximum setting does it begin to do so. I may increase contrast a little to see what happens to gamma at that end of the scale (as noted it drops off sharply which to me suggests some compression). Unfortunately I can only do this when my fiancee's Windoze laptop is back!!

Thanks all

HCFR just reports what the probe tells it, luminance probes like the spyder and i1 measure in cd/m^2.

Sorry but can I come back to this? The i1 measures luminance, yes, but that measured luminance can be expressed by the recipient software in many ways (Y, L*, fL, cd/m^2). Are we sure that ColorHCFR chooses to express the answer in cd/m^2?

(A case in point. By looking at my computer display ICC profile in Colorsync I can see that when asked to display RGB 255, 255, 255 i1 Match stored XYZ_Y of 118.96 or L* of 106.91 in the CIED descriptive tag.)

Sorry but can I come back to this? The i1 measures luminance, yes, but that measured luminance can be expressed by the recipient software in many ways (Y, L*, fL, cd/m^2). Are we sure that ColorHCFR chooses to express the answer in cd/m^2?


yes, HCFR does no conversion on the data. SI units for luminance are cd/m^2 and that is what the spyder, i1 pro, and i1 display report.

Thanks Zoyd

I have both the i1 and the d2. When measuring the 100% white, for example, the i1 reports Y=83, and the d2 reports Y=61. or thereabouts. That seems like a pretty large discrepancy to me. Can it be explained by the fact that the d2 doesn't really understand the primary colors on my rear projection LCD? Which value should I consider more accurate?
Roy

I have both the i1 and the d2. When measuring the 100% white, for example, the i1 reports Y=83, and the d2 reports Y=61. or thereabouts. That seems like a pretty large discrepancy to me. Can it be explained by the fact that the d2 doesn't really understand the primary colors on my rear projection LCD? Which value should I consider more accurate?
Roy

Try comparing them on a laptop lcd or crt monitor to see if it is the display which causes the discrepancy. The i1pro will be better than the d2 at handling displays with unusual spectral distributions but that amount of difference is pretty bad.

Finally, finished reading the whole thread :) I've learned a lot from the experts and users experiences posted here. I bought a Vizio VU42L (direct view LCD) to replace my dead Samsung CRT HDTV. The set pulls double duty for movie watching and video games (360, PC, PS3), with more emphasis on the video games. I have gone full digital with the set with only the 360 on component and everything else on HDMI.
I have decided to calibrate using the DVD player (upscaling Samsung) since the PC is not reliable IMO. I can't rely on the PC generating the patterns for ColorHCFR as the video card has many controls that were moved from defaults before I learned from this thread (got some really weird readings with the probe using the PC).
The question(s) I have are:
1.Should I calibrate it as a HDTV set or a computer monitor? (16~235 or 0~255)
2.The DVD player gives me the options of
a)YCbCr-(4:4:4)
b)YCbCr-(4:2:2)
c)RGB-Normal
d)RGB-Expand
Based on question 1, which do you think would be the best option? I have Avia and the ColorHCFR DVD.
BTW, many thanks to the team for a wonderful piece of software and cheap and easy to build probe.

Any chance ColorHCFR will one day offer ISF C3 access to various display's service modes via RS232?

(I suspect I'd ultimately like access to the Pioneer Kuro LX608D's 9-point gamma control...)

FROM 2438/9

"Quote:
Originally Posted by rmongiovi
Yeah, primaries and secondaries. But start a continuous measurement and bring up the CIE diagram. You'll see a yellow dot that is the current "continuous measurement" point. It moves in real time as you adjust the color settings of the TV. If it showed deltaE you could easily find the minimum.

Instead you have to take a primary/secondary measurement, then look at the CIE diagram, then lather rinse and repeat...."


"ah ok, didn't realize you were talking about the real-time measure. You'd have to add a way to specify what your targer color is for that to work, or maybe have it start reporting dE when it was in the vicinity of one of the colors. "

How do you enter a value as a target in the Display Measure(ment)s window? I don't follow the Target portion of this window. It would be good if one could enter a target value and have this window display Delta-E. Then with this window open and updating with real-time data it would be easier to set primaries/secondaries etc.

EDIT: Can I also ask a noobie calibration question? I've been working with my Colour Management settings to adjust primaries and secondaires. Initially I was struggling with this until I realised the higher level Colour setting adjusted overall saturation (shrinking the overall xy "gamut"). Now, what does "Tint" do and does it have a place in proper calibration? (I'm about to start playing with greyscale for which I have "High"/"Low" controls for each of red, green and blue.)

I've been working with my Colour Management settings to adjust primaries and secondaires. Initially I was struggling with this until I realised the higher level Colour setting adjusted overall saturation (shrinking the overall xy "gamut"). Now, what does "Tint" do and does it have a place in proper calibration? (I'm about to start playing with greyscale for which I have "High"/"Low" controls for each of red, green and blue.)

For most of what you're asking, http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=852536 is a good source. If you just want to set tint and color, and not get into the other color controls, then I recommend simply using a color filter and a hue/color pattern like DVE, Avia, or GetGray offer.

One thing that I've found helpful for understanding the terms Tom uses in the guide, and how that seems to relate to xyY colorspace, is to open up the free paint.net program. Look at what happens when you change the HSV color controls. H is for Hue (Tint) and when you change it you'll see the selection box rotate around the white/gray center. If you put your probe on a secondary color and watch the CIE chart you'll see the same sort of rotation behavior along the outside of the gamut as you change tint.

The other two HSV controls also somewhat relate to xyY colorspace. When you change S (Saturation) you'll see that the box moves in and out from the center. V is the Brightness or Lightness and doesn't directly show up on the circle diagram, but you can see what it does to the color. The cone or cylinder at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HSV_color_space gives another look at what you're changing when you alter HSV controls. CIE seems somewhat similar in that it too is three dimensional when you consider the Y value. Personally I think that HSV is a good way to get a basic understanding of the terms Tom lists of hue, saturation, brightness.

Another way to get some idea what varying tint does is to look through a color filter at the related color patterns. They're intended to have the same amount of the filtered color, but by changing tint you'll see that you cause the levels to change. One color will become lighter and another darker, meaning that they're not equal like intended.

Ahh! I was skipping along a little too fast and couldn't resist fiddling with ColorHCFR while I read!

I have controls for Brightness, Contrast, Color, Tint, Primary/Secondaries under color management, color temp (RGB high/low +/-) and three gamma settings to choose from (and more) so I plan to learn the whole thing. I knew I was missing something when I could get the primaries on point but the Cyan secondary was way outside the xy gamut.

Thanks

EDIT: Phew... Finally read this entire thread. Now to Tom's tutorial... Thanks all.

Hi balijoka,i get much better results with my next gamma calibrations, i got the middle pretty near at 2.2, but i am still not absolutely clear how brightness and contrast affects the low and high end(the low end is not a big problem, bud at 90 IRE it still get clipping even with Epsons Super White activatet...but without this feature the clipping is much more severe). I tryed to play with lowering contrast to -3 or-4. The picture gain more plasticity, but lost too much details in darkest parts. Now i settled at 0 and try to calibrate gamma from there. There is not much i can to doo with brightnes, i figured i can´t go lower as -1 if i dont want to loose shadow detail in dark scenes.




I had a similar result first time I adjusted my gamma. You have "overadjusted" and must start over again. Remember to adjust in smal steps and use brightness/contrast controls to adjust 10IRE/90IRE at the end of the procedure, if necessary. It's like I said before, you have to know what the different controls do on your projector.
TIPS: If you select ex. 70 IRE pattern on your calibration dvd and move up and down the gamma graph, the picture will blink when you're on the corresponding point of the graph.

Good luck.

A suggestion for version 2 or 2.1. of the exellent program. What if one visualise the intesety of the primerys and seconrdaryes on the CIE diagram, eiter in real walues or in an index where 100 is correct and less than 100 is to low and higher than 100 is to high.
The idea is not mine just found it on a Swedish forum.

The diagam suggested i enclosed:

Excellent suggestion, would make color calibration much easier. I would also add a line underneath showing the new dE calculation, the one that includes color lightness.

I agree, excelent suggestion ! Will pass it to team ;)

--Patrice

Excellent suggestion, would make color calibration much easier. I would also add a line underneath showing the new dE calculation, the one that includes color lightness.

awe this would be awesome..

Hi Zoyd

I don't know if it's really useful with the V2.0... Since you have a beta version, I think you noticed both information are in the measure grid for primary/secondary colors. Isn't it enough ? I don't think it would be a good idea to charge the CIE diagram with this information...

Georges

Hi Zoyd

I don't know if it's really useful with the V2.0... Since you have a beta version, I think you noticed both information are in the measure grid for primary/secondary colors. Isn't it enough ? I don't think it would be a good idea to charge the CIE diagram with this information...

Georges

Greeting Georges,

yes, delta E and delta luma are in the measure grid but I wasn't aware that it updates in real-time when doing continuous measures, perhaps I missed that. If so then I agree, it would be redundant (although pretty:)).

edit: ok, I think I just found it, is it the "Detect primary colors during user measures"? option and does it apply to secondary colors also?

edit2: Checked it out and the primaries data updates in real-time but the secondaries don't.

Finally, finished reading the whole thread :) I've learned a lot from the experts and users experiences posted here. I bought a Vizio VU42L (direct view LCD) to replace my dead Samsung CRT HDTV. The set pulls double duty for movie watching and video games (360, PC, PS3), with more emphasis on the video games. I have gone full digital with the set with only the 360 on component and everything else on HDMI.
I have decided to calibrate using the DVD player (upscaling Samsung) since the PC is not reliable IMO. I can't rely on the PC generating the patterns for ColorHCFR as the video card has many controls that were moved from defaults before I learned from this thread (got some really weird readings with the probe using the PC).
The question(s) I have are:
1.Should I calibrate it as a HDTV set or a computer monitor? (16~235 or 0~255)
2.The DVD player gives me the options of
a)YCbCr-(4:4:4)
b)YCbCr-(4:2:2)
c)RGB-Normal
d)RGB-Expand
Based on question 1, which do you think would be the best option? I have Avia and the ColorHCFR DVD.
BTW, many thanks to the team for a wonderful piece of software and cheap and easy to build probe.

Anyone? :confused:

I have not tried the 2.0 version, but have the intenensoty "index" and dE as an option to be showed below the CIE diagram would be nice as a summary and also for sharing information among us tweakers (probably also nice under dooing contionous readings).

Hope that you can consider it.

Regards Henning

Wow talk about a headache!! I was just about to buy a AVIA disc to calibrate my picture and audio...then I start reading this:eek:

I do not have any more time today to research...SO can anyone PM me or post the BEST way to calibrate my LCD and my Infocus X1 projector that both play DVD and have HD cable and will soon have blueray players?

I am looking to spend around $100 or so TOPS.

THANKS:)

Anyone? :confused:

I'll take a stab at it:

1.Should I calibrate it as a HDTV set or a computer monitor? (16~235 or 0~255)


The 16-235,0-255 setting in HCFR will have no effect on calibration since it's only used when generating patterns from the PC.

2.The DVD player gives me the options of
a)YCbCr-(4:4:4)
b)YCbCr-(4:2:2)
c)RGB-Normal
d)RGB-Expand


a and b means the display will do the decoding which is the normal way to do it (4:4:4 or 4:2:2 probably no difference).

c and d means decode in the dvd player, you can try it to see if one decoder is any better than the other, expanded probably scales to 0-255 which would give you more adjustment latitude for playing with BTB and WTW but this is a controversial topic.


Based on question 1, which do you think would be the best option? I have Avia and the ColorHCFR DVD.


I prefer getgray for ease of use.

I prefer getgray for ease of use.

& let's not forget, GetGray's much more accurate patterns....

Carmine.

Thanks zoyd. I'll get getgray and use the first 2 settings. Once I calibrate the display I'll give the computer's control panel a try and adjust away until the PC's output matches the curves I get with the DVD (I hope that is possible)

Thanks zoyd. I'll get getgray and use the first 2 settings. Once I calibrate the display I'll give the computer's control panel a try and adjust away until the PC's output matches the curves I get with the DVD (I hope that is possible)

If after calibrating your dvdplayer you are feeling ambitious you can use the procedures in this (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=912720) thread to get near-perfect color from your HTPC.

If after calibrating your dvdplayer you are feeling ambitious you can use the procedures in this (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=912720) thread to get near-perfect color from your HTPC.

As far as I can tell my computer doesn't even convert to the same color space for HD and SD video, so I really don't understand why it's useful to get the primaries on target. I would have to think it's more important to get both video standards into the same colorspace before worring about primaries, and I can't find anything that surely indicates my computer is doing any colorspace conversion to one system.

As far as I can tell my computer doesn't even convert to the same color space for HD and SD video, so I really don't understand why it's useful to get the primaries on target.

Well that's the point of the thread, you can set-up your computer (actually it's only one program on your computer at the moment, media player classic) to produce SMPTE-C or Rec709 color primaries on your display and see the colors that were intended. So for example you can watch an SD DVD and know you are seeing accurate colors, isn't that the whole point in color calibration?

note that the technique requires that your current primaries lie outside of the target primaries, the other way around won't work. It's a way of implementing an external CMS if your display doesn't have the capability internally.

Don't forget about the gamma adjustment, too.

If after calibrating your dvdplayer you are feeling ambitious you can use the procedures in this (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=912720) thread to get near-perfect color from your HTPC.
I'll shoot for that right after I get the DVD player and set as close to perfect as I can. I just upgraded my PC (major overhaul) so I haven't touched the control panel of the new video card.

Anyone do this with a Samsung DLP? It is very frustrating...

I have an HLR4664 (2005, 720p)

I'm using this software, Spyder2express, GetGrey DVD
I've been playing the DVD with VLC and mplayerc

Now I've been using the "Cinema" mode since I got my TV. The problem is that to change any sort of settings I have to go into the service menu, which resets all the contrast/brightness/sharpness/color to default every single time, and defaults to "Standard". Ok, so in the menu, it is shown in "Standard" too so I just thought I'll set it up based upon that.

Well when I get my RGB close to 100% and color to 6500K and Delta E to around 1-3, then I leave the service menu and try to fix the contrast and brightness, then the colors are off.

Also trying to adjust the options, and guess what effect they have on "Cinema" mode doesn't help - I don't think they have any. The best I can do is Red 70%, Green 110%, Blue 160%, Color Temp like 10K-12K+

My Gamma is at 2.61 right now, probably too high. I've been using the 16-235 setting in References, I am finding conflicting info on which to use here???

I'm obviously doing something wrong. Can anyone help me out - ideally someone who owns / has calibrated a Samsung DLP - And start with contrast / brightness and then Gamma and then RGB/Color Temp.

Thanks...

Anyone do this with a Samsung DLP? It is very frustrating...

I have an HLR4664 (2005, 720p)

I'm using this software, Spyder2express, GetGrey DVD
I've been playing the DVD with VLC and mplayerc

Now I've been using the "Cinema" mode since I got my TV. The problem is that to change any sort of settings I have to go into the service menu, which resets all the contrast/brightness/sharpness/color to default every single time, and defaults to "Standard". Ok, so in the menu, it is shown in "Standard" too so I just thought I'll set it up based upon that.

Well when I get my RGB close to 100% and color to 6500K and Delta E to around 1-3, then I leave the service menu and try to fix the contrast and brightness, then the colors are off.

Also trying to adjust the options, and guess what effect they have on "Cinema" mode doesn't help - I don't think they have any. The best I can do is Red 70%, Green 110%, Blue 160%, Color Temp like 10K-12K+

My Gamma is at 2.61 right now, probably too high. I've been using the 16-235 setting in References, I am finding conflicting info on which to use here???

I'm obviously doing something wrong. Can anyone help me out - ideally someone who owns / has calibrated a Samsung DLP - And start with contrast / brightness and then Gamma and then RGB/Color Temp.

Thanks...

The 16-235 is only for the SELF GENERATE PATTERNS built into ColorHCFR. In the digital world - this is the correct one to use, the 0-255 is for computers (I believe)..so need to really worry there.

Dont bother calibrating Cinema if its not possible in the service menu. Let Standard be the mode you use from this point on. Just because it says Cinema doesnt make it correct, in fact, because you calibrated the greyscale for STANDARD (not Cinema), that mode will obviously be the better mode to use. Dont look at the modes as a way to watch TV, you can take a BRILLIANT mode and make it a perfectly calibrated mode if you simply go to the service menu and make the appropriate changes.

so STANDARD GOOD, CINEMA BAD...


btw..you might want to read up on the Samsung - some of them have a special way of calibrating, so yours may not be an exception. Its may not be the same model but it may be the same way it needs to be calibrated..btw...do a search within the appropriate forum..I think in Rear Projection you might find your set..tons of info there

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=697413&highlight=CCA

I'm excited to try this, I'll let everyone know how it goes.

Is version 2 out yet?

Reading a few of the posts recently suggests that there is Beta version fl;oating about somewhere...

...just checking,....!:D

HCFR developers - long ago we spoke about a feature for 2.0 that would make it easy to target a specific gamma. For instance say I want to tell HCFR that I'm targetting a 2.5 gamma, and that my Y value at 100 IRE is X - I want it to tell me what that Y value should be for 10-90 IRE without having to compute it by hand.

Can someone from the dev team tell me whether this feature made it into 2.0 beta? If not is there a somewhat easy way at least to do this without having to calculate it manually? Thanks.

HCFR developers - long ago we spoke about a feature for 2.0 that would make it easy to target a specific gamma. For instance say I want to tell HCFR that I'm targetting a 2.5 gamma, and that my Y value at 100 IRE is X - I want it to tell me what that Y value should be for 10-90 IRE without having to compute it by hand.

Can someone from the dev team tell me whether this feature made it into 2.0 beta? If not is there a somewhat easy way at least to do this without having to calculate it manually? Thanks.

The 2.0 version has something like this. There is an option to include in the calculation of dE for grayscale the effect of gamma. So it doesn't tell you explicitly what you should shoot for but if you tune for minimum dE your gamma will hit it's target. Is this good enough?

Is there a target release date for v2.0?

Yes, this year (2007) ;)

So far, it is feature frozen, we are starting to fully update doc and also completing some side things (Spanish version, reporting, build in patterns...).
It has been sent to a few beta testers and we are evaluating feedback to ammend (or not) some specific points.

--Patrice ;)

Thanks for the answer and thanks for your efforts. Looking forward to it!

It would be greatful to have ISFccc communication with eg. Pioneer Elite with others. Is it possible to implement without liscense money?

Yes, this year (2007) ;)

So far, it is feature frozen, we are starting to fully update doc and also completing some side things (Spanish version, reporting, build in patterns...).
It has been sent to a few beta testers and we are evaluating feedback to ammend (or not) some specific points.

--Patrice ;)

Glad to hear it. Did you guys have a chance to fully develop your ideas for a "train meter" wizard / operation like we talked about (i.e. train my Spyder to my EyeOne so I can use the Spyder's lower light reading capability but retain the color accuracy of the EyeOne)?

In which area shuld I make calloffs in the terms of grayscale calibration? Is it better to make the 50%-100% Correct or the 0%-50% in the grayscale?

you really should be able to get the whole grayscale flat. What specifically is the problem, post your measurements.

@zoyd:
Thank you for the giving hand. I solved the problem I had, so need to bother. Have a nice evning!

Hello
HCFR developers - long ago we spoke about a feature for 2.0 that would make it easy to target a specific gamma. For instance say I want to tell HCFR that I'm targetting a 2.5 gamma, and that my Y value at 100 IRE is X - I want it to tell me what that Y value should be for 10-90 IRE without having to compute it by hand.

Can someone from the dev team tell me whether this feature made it into 2.0 beta? If not is there a somewhat easy way at least to do this without having to calculate it manually? Thanks.
We do not have exactly what you want. But I will take a look at this. I suppose you want to know the target Y level for every IRE level between 10 and 90, regarding actually measured black and white. Then, I suppose you will use continuous measuring on a 50 IRE pattern (or any other level) and play with projector gamma settings to obtain the target Y value ? That's it ?

It could be a good idea, so why not. I promise nothing, but if I find a little time to implement (and document) it, why not...

Georges

Glad to hear it. Did you guys have a chance to fully develop your ideas for a "train meter" wizard / operation like we talked about (i.e. train my Spyder to my EyeOne so I can use the Spyder's lower light reading capability but retain the color accuracy of the EyeOne)?
Yes, we implemented it fully, maybe even more than what you imagined ;) Anyway, it is not a wizard, it is still an "advanced" set of features, you will need to carefully read the documentation ;)

Georges

Hello

We do not have exactly what you want. But I will take a look at this. I suppose you want to know the target Y level for every IRE level between 10 and 90, regarding actually measured black and white. Then, I suppose you will use continuous measuring on a 50 IRE pattern (or any other level) and play with projector gamma settings to obtain the target Y value ? That's it ?

It could be a good idea, so why not. I promise nothing, but if I find a little time to implement (and document) it, why not...

Georges

Yes you got it - exactly.

Yes, we implemented it fully, maybe even more than what you imagined ;) Anyway, it is not a wizard, it is still an "advanced" set of features, you will need to carefully read the documentation ;)

Georges

Great news. How different is this newly added support compared to that in the latest released version that enables you to check that check box to do this. Can't remember exactly the procedure but I think you'll know what I mean.

Also can you elaborate on this feature and what it can do beyond what we may have imagined? :) Thanks.

Big thanks to the HCFR team for this software. I'm eagerly awaiting v2.0. Could you tell me though, has the D2 lock-up problem been fixed? And for the record, this issue is not limited to plasma displays...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=930423

I ran with your idea(brilliant!) and did this to nail my gamma.

I ran a greyscale run and popped open the gamma graph in the log mode, or straight line mode. Then clicked on editable data.

Then I changed the Y values on all the IRE steps until the line was dead on. This exercise actually turned the light on for me and gamma and the Y value.

I save that run. Open a new one and adjust the projector at various points using continuous measurements until Y values are as close to the previous adjusted run Y values.

Of course using a scaler like the lumagen makes this a devilishly easy and awesome way to nail the gamma dead nuts.

Then I recheck greyscale and correct any color issues that may arise from the luma adjustment. The projector may color shift a little since you're feeding corrected pixel values, not the real values. Again having the scaler makes this a trivial task.

The results were stunning and make my Panny AE900 look awesome.

My only issue now is that 2.2 gamma measured with a spyder2 seems still a tad dark. Perhaps 2.1 or 2.0 would better bring the shadows out?

I have the front projector and XRite DTP-94.

If i have a high gain screen and slightly silver color texture screen, it's better to do the measurement with probe facing the screen to include the factor of the screen??

If facing the projector, how far aways i should place the sensor from the beamer?

Thanks

I have the front projector and XRite DTP-94.

If i have a high gain screen and slightly silver color texture screen, it's better to do the measurement with probe facing the screen to include the factor of the screen??

If facing the projector, how far aways i should place the sensor from the beamer?

Thanks

Hi.

You should face the meter towards our screen. The DTP94 should be placed where you'll get the most light. Try different placings, and make a quick read for fL, where you get the highest level, this is where it should stand.

The thing with the DTP94 is that the angle of the sensor is quite big. So it shouldn't be so sensitive to placing.

My only issue now is that 2.2 gamma measured with a spyder2 seems still a tad dark. Perhaps 2.1 or 2.0 would better bring the shadows out?

2.2 is generally the lowest recommended gamma. It is possible that the spyder is having trouble with the low-end readings and it's not really 2.2 but something higher generating black crush. This could happen if the spyder is reading high at the low-end causing you to lower output at those points. What Y levels are you working at? Maybe you could post your results. I have previously measured my S2 reading high relative to my D2 and i1pro anywhere from 5-20% depending on light level.

2.2 is generally the lowest recommended gamma. It is possible that the spyder is having trouble with the low-end readings and it's not really 2.2 but something higher generating black crush. This could happen if the spyder is reading high at the low-end causing you to lower output at those points. What Y levels are you working at? Maybe you could post your results.

I wonder if I have the same issue, and hopefully this question isn't complete nonsense:

Since gamma is the slope of the curve from 0 to 100 IRE, is there a way to determine the slope between 20 (for example) and 100 only? I suppose I could just dump it into Excel and do this. I'm just wondering (a) if it makes sense and (b) if the software could already do it for me.

I wonder if I have the same issue, and hopefully this question isn't complete nonsense:

Since gamma is the slope of the curve from 0 to 100 IRE, is there a way to determine the slope between 20 (for example) and 100 only? I suppose I could just dump it into Excel and do this. I'm just wondering (a) if it makes sense and (b) if the software could already do it for me.

HCFR fits and reports local gamma, the 10 IRE point is the slope between 0-10, 20 IRE is the slope between 10-20 etc. and average gamma. If you don't trust the numbers at the lower IRE they should be left out of the fitting routine but I don't think HCFR allows this. You can do a manual calculation like this (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10469695) though.

2.2 is generally the lowest recommended gamma. It is possible that the spyder is having trouble with the low-end readings and it's not really 2.2 but something higher generating black crush. This could happen if the spyder is reading high at the low-end causing you to lower output at those points. What Y levels are you working at?

Its not so much black crush as I have set my black and white points pretty good. Its just that at a reported 2.2 gamma, the contrast in the shadows is fairly low, setting my Y values according to the method I described. By shooting for a lower gamma, the calculated curve has the lower end with higher luma values. I also may not be setting the correct options on the gamma. This is an LCD projector. I am not using the dynamic IRIS so my 0IRE is not "black black" like a DLP projector. I think there is a black compensation setting and a camera gamma option that I have not tried yet. I remember those settings affecting the gamma target significantly.


Maybe you could post your results. I have previously measured my S2 reading high relative to my D2 and i1pro anywhere from 5-20% depending on light level.
I'll do that. I have done my calibrations 2 ways. One with the spyder facing the projector. Using this method, I can read the 10 IRE step quite easily. This allows me to get very dark gray "grey".. I also use the old school 81C filter to get 0IRE closer to "grey". When the spyder is facing the projector, 100 IRE gives a Y well above 100.

When I face the screen(an SMX DIY screen) I can not read 10IRE anymore and the Y value for 100IRE is around 16.

I will post my data later this morning. Thanks for the help.

Its not so much black crush as I have set my black and white points pretty good. Its just that at a reported 2.2 gamma, the contrast in the shadows is fairly low, setting my Y values according to the method I described. By shooting for a lower gamma, the calculated curve has the lower end with higher luma values. I also may not be setting the correct options on the gamma. This is an LCD projector. I am not using the dynamic IRIS so my 0IRE is not "black black" like a DLP projector. I think there is a black compensation setting and a camera gamma option that I have not tried yet. I remember those settings affecting the gamma target significantly.


Getting the sub-10% blacks to look good is tricky with a spyder, pointing at the projector is your best bet. Are you doing a screen offset correction? It might help in understanding where the problem is, it won't change the gamma calculation but it will tell you the correct absolute Y value at the low end so you can get an idea of the true amount of light coming off the screen at those levels.

Using the Spyder meter I have easily been able to get very accurate and consisten readings at 5 IRE. The challenge however is always in trying to balance that with the rest of the gray scale.

Using the Spyder meter I have easily been able to get very accurate and consisten readings at 5 IRE.

I've seen well-behaved luminance readings (<5% deviation from either the i1pro or D2) from the spyder down to 0.65 cd/m^2. Below that the agreement was worse, at 0.057 nits the spyder read 28% high (0.073 nits). This (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=10537050&postcount=85) post has the details.

Ok here is a series of data runs in a zip file.


pannylumagen3.chc

This is a run after greyscale was nailed. Color is very good and gamma close but we can do better :)


pannylumagen3_corrected.chc

This is the same file only the Y values were manipulated by hand to make the 2.2 gamma curve dead on(or very close). This was done by watching the changes to the gamma curve in log mode while tinkering with the Y values.


pannylumagen4.chc

This is an actual run with the luma values on the scaler manipulated to make the Y values read the same as the above corrected one.


At this point, the picture looks outstanding but the blacks are a little muddy. Its really picking nits, but I think it could be made better.

The world series in HD was very nice to look at and flesh tones are spot on, with none of the green under chin shadows etc..

I've found that when I point the spyder at the projector, I have to make sure that I dont allow ANY light from anywhere to reach the sensor when reading 0 and 10IRE. Even the color of my clothes can affect the reading from the little amount of light that comes from the laptop...

Also I am suspecting that the status lines on the lumagen are causing innacuracies in the low light readings... I use the lumagen internal grey window patterns and below the window is the status lines for luma, red green blue... etc.. That text white and probably contributes quite a bit to the overall amount of light at very low IRE. I wish I could get the text to display at 10IRE or something..

Once this is conquered, the next step it to tame the oversaturation on the reds and greens of the panny. I understand that this is likely due to the color decoder on my proj. I am trying to figure out how I can fix that with the scaler also as it has a plethora of color adjustments. For now I just have the color notched back a little on the projector and it seems ok.



My only complaint at this point is slightly muddy blacks, but for what I have,

OPPO DVD player
Lumagen HDQ
Panny AE900u
Panamorph Scope lens

The home theater experience is pretty awesome.



I owe it all to the folks on this list and all the people that work hard to bring professional quality HT stuff to the regular person.

Dennis

I've seen well-behaved luminance readings (<5% deviation from either the i1pro or D2) from the spyder down to 0.65 cd/m^2. Below that the agreement was worse, at 0.057 nits the spyder read 28% high (0.073 nits). This (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=10537050&postcount=85) post has the details.

Zoyd, have you been able to test the DTP-94..I know these are harder to find but there still out there..

Zoyd, have you been able to test the DTP-94..I know these are harder to find but there still out there..

No, I haven't tried to grab one. I would expect similar performance to the D2 but haven't seen any data to confirm. Maybe jdbimmer can comment.

Zoyd,

Am I correct that Henderson's Panny above is about 50Flt, his Y reading is 169..which seems extremely high for a FP - if he lowers it down to 17ftl (rule of thumb for FP?), he may get a better CR from 565:1 right now..

Im just trying to understand this stuff..

Zoyd,

Am I correct that Henderson's Panny above is about 50Flt, his Y reading is 169..which seems extremely high for a FP - if he lowers it down to 17ftl (rule of thumb for FP?), he may get a better CR from 565:1 right now..

Im just trying to understand this stuff..

Haven't looked at the file by my guess is the number you are looking at is a reading looking directly at the FP so it's not what's coming off the screen.

No, I haven't tried to grab one. I would expect similar performance to the D2 but haven't seen any data to confirm. Maybe jdbimmer can comment. Just let me know what you want me to measure with the DTP and I1Pro and I'll provide the results.

Just let me know what you want me to measure with the DTP and I1Pro and I'll provide the results.

We were curious how well they track one another in Y below 1 nit and whether that was similar to the D2/i1pro comparison I did. This requires averaging the i1pro so it's a bit of a pain to do.

We were curious how well they track one another in Y below 1 nit and whether that was similar to the D2/i1pro comparison I did. This requires averaging the i1pro so it's a bit of a pain to do.


Make sure that the DTP-94 is recalibrated every 10min..Im not familiear with the D2, but I believe the i1pro requires recab's about every 10min as well..

Haven't looked at the file by my guess is the number you are looking at is a reading looking directly at the FP so it's not what's coming off the screen.

Yes that is looking at the projector directly.

The max Y looking at the screen is only 17.6( just about rule of thumb) as opposed to 169.5. The screen is the SMX material. Have a big center speaker behind the screen. Its lo gain but looks great.


Here is a run (pannylumagen5.chc) that was calibrated looking at the screen rather than the projector. I didnt have as much time to dial it in but its pretty close.

Thanks for looking at my data.

Yes that is looking at the projector directly.

The max Y looking at the screen is only 17.6( just about rule of thumb) as opposed to 169.5. The screen is the SMX material. Have a big center speaker behind the screen. Its lo gain but looks great.


Here is a run (pannylumagen5.chc) that was calibrated looking at the screen rather than the projector. I didnt have as much time to dial it in but its pretty close.

Thanks for looking at my data.

Actually its about 5ftl then if you max Y is 17.6..

Will the Spyder3 Work with HCFR or Calman 3?

Yes that is looking at the projector directly.

The max Y looking at the screen is only 17.6( just about rule of thumb) as opposed to 169.5. The screen is the SMX material. Have a big center speaker behind the screen. Its lo gain but looks great.


Here is a run (pannylumagen5.chc) that was calibrated looking at the screen rather than the projector. I didnt have as much time to dial it in but its pretty close.

Thanks for looking at my data.

Looks good, if you ratio the panny5 Y numbers to the panny4 (direct vs. screen) you'll see that you get a nice flat ratio around 9.6 until you hit 30% stim. At 30% it's 3% low, 20% 7% low, at 10% it's 11% low so I wouldn't trust the 0,10,20 values on the screen readings. In any case it looks like you've got it where you want it.

I appreciate the attention to my data.

I am about as happy with what I have as I can be. Most of the folks that watch our HT are amazed, but everything is relative. This forum and its members always make sure that we can kick everything up a notch or two. Super special kudos to the members of the HCFR team. the software is first rate!

Thanks

Dennis

what's the right probe to get? for budget constraint user?

is DIY the HCFR Probe easy?

what's the right probe to get? for budget constraint user?

is DIY the HCFR Probe easy?


You will actually need 2 probes (one HCFR and the other one another probe not HCFR), in order for HCFR to be useful..The only way you wont need the other probe is if their is a calibration file for your set - then you can use that file to use your HCFR probe. The D2 is the probe being used most here but its not currently good when using it on a Plasma, if that is not whatyou have, then the D2 is the way to go. Also if you can fidn a Optix-XR (DTP-94 probe),this is a discontinued product but a very good one, you can probably find in on Ebay or other resellers out there..Good luck..

My only issue now is that 2.2 gamma measured with a spyder2 seems still a tad dark. Perhaps 2.1 or 2.0 would better bring the shadows out?

I found this to be just the opposite on my Panny 50PH9UK pro plasma. it appears, that my TV has a red deficiency. Every time I calibrate, I have to peg the red Gain to maximum. Anyone know of a way to zero line the red gain in the service menu of the panny pro's? Unless my Spyder has an issue with the higher IRE's. Anyway, I had to adjust my gamma to 2.5 when I cal'd the TV for my new HD-A2. Tried messing with the input value, but that affected the lower IRE's. Otherwise, getting 20 or 30 IRE dialed in is easy, but it seems due to the red gain problem, I have a hard time getting the higher IRE's dialed in. Right now, 80 IRE is tracking around 95% which is the best I could get. Shadow detail actually improved slightly. A good scene for shadow detail is in Batman Begins. The scene where the cops are chasing the Batmobile down the highway and Batman turns out the lights. After they say they lost him, we cut to a scene where an officer is right next to the Batmobile and then says "I see him" into the radio. Just before he says that, you can make out the Batmobile passing his squad car on the left. I was unable to see this until I cal'd that input.

I found this to be just the opposite on my Panny 50PH9UK pro plasma. it appears, that my TV has a red deficiency. Every time I calibrate, I have to peg the red Gain to maximum. Anyone know of a way to zero line the red gain in the service menu of the panny pro's? The 9UK owner's thread has a lot of info on this topic, here's a good starting point: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10305688&highlight=FC#post10305688

this next version of HCFR must be coming soon??

Did you get Spyder3's in time to add built-in support for them?

When using the View Images Generator, my Gamma is way off if I use the Overlay option. The laptop has a Radeon X300 display adapter, and the default adapter setting for gamma is 1.0, with a range from .85 to 2.5.
Should I set the Overlay to 2.2?

Here's a picture of the control http://support.dell.com/support/edocs/video/P74781S/en/overlay.htm

Also, can I assume that the output gamma from the PC is correct if I use GDI (Windows VMR9) instead?

Does anyone know if the ColorHCFR probe will NOT require calibration files in the new version to be released??

Is there a way to simply average a selected number of continuous measurement readings? I think this would be quite handy.

Also, can I assume that the output gamma from the PC is correct if I use GDI (Windows VMR9) instead?

There are so many variables with using the PC patterns as the source for calibration in terms of PC vs video levels, etc.

You really want to use a calibration DVD in your DVD player when calibrating unless you are 100% certain that you are sending proper levels. After all you really want to calibrate your entire chain so playing a disc in your player makes a lot of sense.

Way back when I did a comparison between my HTPC (using TheaterTek) playing GetGray and the HCFR patterns and there was a difference.

Given that the GetGray results were different from one version of driver to another just highlights the number of things that can go wrong.

There are so many variables with using the PC patterns as the source for calibration in terms of PC vs video levels, etc.

You really want to use a calibration DVD in your DVD player when calibrating unless you are 100% certain that you are sending proper levels. After all you really want to calibrate your entire chain so playing a disc in your player makes a lot of sense.

Way back when I did a comparison between my HTPC (using TheaterTek) playing GetGray and the HCFR patterns and there was a difference.

Given that the GetGray results were different from one version of driver to another just highlights the number of things that can go wrong.
The reason I question it is that the ColorHCFR VMR9 generated images from 3 different PC's results in better gamma curves than I ever get using the Oppo and GetGray or any other calibration DVD. Since the curves are so on target using the PC, I am starting to question my DVD video chain too.

From your description it could very well be that your DVD video chain is messed up somehow. What player are you using and how is it setup?

It's an Oppo 970HD set for RGB over HDMI. I will have to check it without the HDMI switcher in the path and also revert back to the original firmware - I am using the vertical squeeze patch from Oppo right now.

Does anyone know if the ColorHCFR probe will NOT require calibration files in the new version to be released??
Rich, I can't speak for the HCFR developers, but I would think that it will still would require cal files. Zoyd has the beta version, maybe he knows for sure.

The only other alternative would be to use generic corrections for different display types, and have those built-in to the code selectable from a dropdown list. This might be okay for some displays, but for most it would be much more accurate to use a calibration file from the same or similar display.

Rich, I can't speak for the HCFR developers, but I would think that it will still would require cal files. Zoyd has the beta version, maybe he knows for sure.

The only other alternative would be to use generic corrections for different display types, and have those built-in to the code selectable from a dropdown list. This might be okay for some displays, but for most it would be much more accurate to use a calibration file from the same or similar display.

I'm not exactly sure what will be included with V2 but I know they were working on a probe that uses a universal calibration similar to (if not identical) to this probe. (http://www.mazet.de/produkte/jencolor/mtcs-c2-board/en) The photodiodes in this probe match the CIE color matching functions very closely so there was some hope that a single calibration at the vendor would work across multiple display SPD's. Unfortunately from the data I have seen you can only get dE(LUV) values in the 10-15 range using this technique. You still need display specific calibration files to get accurate (i.e. <5 dE results)

I'm not exactly sure what will be included with V2 but I know they were working on a probe that uses a universal calibration similar to (if not identical) to this probe. (http://www.mazet.de/produkte/jencolor/mtcs-c2-board/en) The photodiodes in this probe match the CIE color matching functions very closely so there was some hope that a single calibration at the vendor would work across multiple display SPD's. Unfortunately from the data I have seen you can only get dE(LUV) values in the 10-15 range using this technique. You still need display specific calibration files to get accurate (i.e. <5 dE results)
So this will be in addition to the TAOS probe support - cool!

Rich, I can't speak for the HCFR developers, but I would think that it will still would require cal files. Zoyd has the beta version, maybe he knows for sure.

v2.0 will still use calibration files for our probe, the "problem" is not in software, it is related to sensors and probe design...

Zoyd is correct, and we are working on alternate solutions, but nothing "magic" so far... ;)

--Patrice

anybody know which wav file the software uses for the blip during readings? for some reason, the blip does not work any longer. the system sounds work, and I checked preferences to ensure the blip option is checked. I tried reinstalling, no go. the only change is the probe, I was using a Spyder, abd now use a Display LT.

thanks in advance

I searched through this thread several times but I cannot get the DVD to burn properly. I tried the PAL - NTSC conversion but still does not work. I can get the disk to play, but every time I try to play a pattern or sample, it stops in it's tracks. I can get the red/green/blue/white/black samples to work but none of the others.

I am using Nero 7 and have tried Express, Vision, Recode, Burning ROM, I have also tried DVD Shrink. Vision and Recode don't even get to the recording option because they either cannot find a menu file or cannot open a VOB.

What the hell am I doing wrong?!

I searched through this thread several times but I cannot get the DVD to burn properly. I tried the PAL - NTSC conversion but still does not work. I can get the disk to play, but every time I try to play a pattern or sample, it stops in it's tracks. I can get the red/green/blue/white/black samples to work but none of the others.

I am using Nero 7 and have tried Express, Vision, Recode, Burning ROM, I have also tried DVD Shrink. Vision and Recode don't even get to the recording option because they either cannot find a menu file or cannot open a VOB.

What the hell am I doing wrong?!

try this one software..not sure if you can convert over PAL to NTSC, but it doesnt matter if its PAL or NTSC patterns - no difference ( believe - I have 2 copies of them)

http://www.imgburn.com/index.php?act=download

That worked! Now I can obtain readings. Next is researching how best to use this information.

Thanks much, good job!

Jason

anyone have a step by step way to Training Meters..its been a while and I cant find exactly the procedure on ColoHcfr..I want to train my DTP-94 from a D2...

1. Open two Measurement documents - one for the DTP94, one for the D2
2. Measure 75% primaries and secondaries in each probe's doc window. (Optionally run gray scale if you want to see the impact of the sensor matrix).
3. Set the D2 doc as the reference (Check the "Reference Measure" Checkbox)
4. Click on the DTP94 document to make it the active window
5. Select Advanced->Adjust XYZ coordinates from the main menu
6. Save the DTP94 chc file so you can reuse the adjusted sensor matrix later.

If you open the DTP94 Sensor dialog, you should then see the matrix used in the Sensor tab.

1. Open two Measurement documents - one for the DTP94, one for the D2
2. Measure 75% primaries in each probe's doc window. (Optionally run gray scale and secondaries if you want to see the impact of the sensor matrix).
3. Set the D2 doc as the reference (Check the "Reference Measure" Checkbox)
4. Click on the DTP94 document to make it the active window
5. Select Advanced->Adjust XYZ coordinates from the main menu
6. Save the DTP94 chc file so you can reuse the adjusted sensor matrix later.

If you open the DTP94 Sensor dialog, you should then see the matrix used in the Sensor tab.

Also my understanding from the HCFR developers is that the meter training functionality has been significantly expanded and enhanced in the next version of HCFR. Anxiously awaiting details on that...

Hi all,

I have a few beginner questions using HFCR v1.22 (I've used the search but there is too much information going back to 2006 and not sure if it is still valid) and I hope someone can shed some light...

I have the i1 LT colorimeter and a spyder2. I'll be using my VP's test patterns and/or GetGray and/or Tom's (from Calibrating using a CMS sticky thread)

0 - I am assuming that for DLP FPJ I use the LCD mode with the i1 probe and when asked to calibrate the sensor say yes and put it in a flat white surface (ie a white sheet).
a) when calibrating either for color or grey scale, Do I need 2 set of measurements? ie 1 off the screen and 1 off the lens using the cheap diffuser that came with the probe (and how off/bad would I be if I use that diffuser in such case)?

b)How/where does 1 place the probe for off the screen readings (ie since there will be a shadow that will be covering the sensor of the probe etc) and assuming that for the off the lens measurements I need to place the probe at the same hight in front (at 30 cm or a foot) of the lens

Regarding HFCR:
1 - Which display window should be selected from the xyY XYZ RGB etc? To calculate percentage of colors to set contrast/brightness etc off the luminance Y, I'd assume I need the xyY selection, in order to get Y, right?

2 - I remember reading that the 0-255 or 16-235 levels do not have any effect in HFCR when using the non HFCR probe. Is this still correct?

3 - in the gamma calculation of the Preferences menu, do I choose Display Gamma as opposed to the default selection of Display Gamma with Black Compensation?

4 - In order to take continuous measurements (for RGB), do I need a value for the latency under dynamic Iris selection in Preferences? What does this option do really?

5 - Since everything will go through a VP which outputs RGB via hdmi at 1080p do I need to worry for color space errors when using getGray from a SD player? (assuming that the VP transcodes properly)

6 - when stating use 75% patterns, I am assuming this to mean the intensity of the respective color/pattern. Does it matter if it is displayed on a full screen as opposed to a window?

7 - I've seen reference values for Y for RGBCMY in 0.xxx (ie 0.329 etc) but from a quick test run my Y values where in xx.x (ie 13,9 for red etc) range. Is this because of a choice of display mode (ie xyY or XYZ)?

8 - and finally, is there something else I am missing that is very important to set in the software etc?

Many thanks in advance and sorry for the trouble with my questions

Kopa13

I don't have any FPJ experience but since no one else is answering your questions, I'll fill you in on what I've learned from my experiences with the D2 and HCFR on a Sammy HL-S DLP..0 - I am assuming that for DLP FPJ I use the LCD mode with the i1 probe and when asked to calibrate the sensor say yes and put it in a flat white surface (ie a white sheet).The surface doesn't have to be white. The goal is to keep out all ambient light, so I'd think that flat black would probably be ideal, but any flat surface should ok. I even apply a little light pressure to the top of the sensor to make sure the foam "seal" makes good contact.
a) when calibrating either for color or grey scale, Do I need 2 set of measurements? ie 1 off the screen and 1 off the lens using the cheap diffuser that came with the probe (and how off/bad would I be if I use that diffuser in such case)? AFAIK, you should do all of your measurements off of the screen except maybe your max Y level since the probe will be at an angle. As long as it doesn't move, everything should stay relative.

b)How/where does 1 place the probe for off the screen readings (ie since there will be a shadow that will be covering the sensor of the probe etc) and assuming that for the off the lens measurements I need to place the probe at the same hight in front (at 30 cm or a foot) of the lens I've read that you just need to fix it to a tripod or something and just point it at an angle so it's not pointing at it's shadow. For the off the lens measurements, I don't know where you should place the probe, but I do know that the included diffuser isn't all that great (also not neutral gray) but there are better ones that you can use.Regarding HFCR:
1 - Which display window should be selected from the xyY XYZ RGB etc? To calculate percentage of colors to set contrast/brightness etc off the luminance Y, I'd assume I need the xyY selection, in order to get Y, right?Yes.2 - I remember reading that the 0-255 or 16-235 levels do not have any effect in HFCR when using the non HFCR probe. Is this still correct?I think it has to do with the HCFR generated patterns rather than the probe, but I don't think it matters.3 - in the gamma calculation of the Preferences menu, do I choose Display Gamma as opposed to the default selection of Display Gamma with Black Compensation?I could be wrong here, but from what I remember, you just pick the one that gives you the best looking curve.4 - In order to take continuous measurements (for RGB), do I need a value for the latency under dynamic Iris selection in Preferences? What does this option do really?This sets a delay from the time you ask for a measurement to the time the measurement actually takes place. Basically settling time for sensors with an iris. This _shouldn't_ matter for the D2, but some have found that increasing this time has helped with some lock-up/slow read problems at high luminance levels. You can get the same result as a larger number here by just waiting a few seconds after changing the target before hitting measure. This doesn't affect continuous measure mode.5 - Since everything will go through a VP which outputs RGB via hdmi at 1080p do I need to worry for color space errors when using getGray from a SD player? (assuming that the VP transcodes properly)This may be beyond my scope of knowledge, but my educated guess would be to calibrate the DVD player input to REC 601, since DVD's your source material is always going to be SD material. I'm not sure if this answers your question.6 - when stating use 75% patterns, I am assuming this to mean the intensity of the respective color/pattern. Does it matter if it is displayed on a full screen as opposed to a window?This means use 75IRE targets. Windows are better as you don't have to worry about overdriving certain video circuits, but since they're only 75% of the max, you should be ok either way I think. If you don't have 75% targets, 70, 80, or even 100IRE targets may be used, just make sure you use the SAME targets for ALL COLORS AND WHITE when adjusting your primaries and secondaries. I made the mistake of using a 100IRE white window and 75IRE color windows (wasn't paying attention) and it was bad.7 - I've seen reference values for Y for RGBCMY in 0.xxx (ie 0.329 etc) but from a quick test run my Y values where in xx.x (ie 13,9 for red etc) range. Is this because of a choice of display mode (ie xyY or XYZ)?Yes. Set it to xyY and forget it. Those are luminance values in xyY format.8 - and finally, is there something else I am missing that is very important to set in the software etc?Just make sure that you set the color space standard (REC 601 / REC 709) to your source material for each input.

Hope that helps.

Many thanks for taking the time to answer armygreen11.

Just one more thing, I ve seen references of lumincane Y (ie from Tom's thread with calibrating with CMS) for all Y values in 0.xxx range. How do I get the Ys in those ranges as even with xyY selected the Y from 20IRE for example is 1.299 and for 50IRE is 7.595 going all the way up to 32.117 for 100IRE. Is there a formula I should be using to get Y to 0.xxx range?

The same happens with the Pri/Sec measurements ie Red Y is 6.573 Green Y is 24.536 and Blue Y 2.851
(note I'd attach the files but it gives me an error every time I try to attach a file today)

many thanks again,

Kopa13

Ok, I was totally just lying to you. I just opened up HCFR and was looking at some old numbers, and you're right, the Y luminance values in xyY are larger numbers. It's the x and y numbers that are all smaller than 1. With my Samsung DLP, I've seen Y values over 200 (way too bright). IRC, reference white level should have a Y of 100, at least for rear projection. For FPJ, I think the only time you're really concerned with the absolute Y values is when you're tweaking your max output. That's when you aim the sensor at the lens and use a good diffusor. Everything else I beleive can be measured from the screen, but your Y values will be much lower. It's all still relative.Many thanks for taking the time to answer armygreen11.

Just one more thing, I ve seen references of lumincane Y (ie from Tom's thread with calibrating with CMS) for all Y values in 0.xxx range. How do I get the Ys in those ranges as even with xyY selected the Y from 20IRE for example is 1.299 and for 50IRE is 7.595 going all the way up to 32.117 for 100IRE. Is there a formula I should be using to get Y to 0.xxx range?

The same happens with the Pri/Sec measurements ie Red Y is 6.573 Green Y is 24.536 and Blue Y 2.851
(note I'd attach the files but it gives me an error every time I try to attach a file today)

many thanks again,

Kopa13

Just one more thing, I ve seen references of lumincane Y (ie from Tom's thread with calibrating with CMS) for all Y values in 0.xxx range. How do I get the Ys in those ranges as even with xyY selected the Y from 20IRE for example is 1.299 and for 50IRE is 7.595 going all the way up to 32.117 for 100IRE. Is there a formula I should be using to get Y to 0.xxx range?

When you see 0.xxx for Y it's relative to 100% Y. So when Tom talks about using 10% to set brightness, you would take your 10% Y and divide by the 100% Y to get the 0.xxx value for Y.

Many thanks for taking the time to answer armygreen11.

Just one more thing, I ve seen references of lumincane Y (ie from Tom's thread with calibrating with CMS) for all Y values in 0.xxx range. How do I get the Ys in those ranges as even with xyY selected the Y from 20IRE for example is 1.299 and for 50IRE is 7.595 going all the way up to 32.117 for 100IRE. Is there a formula I should be using to get Y to 0.xxx range?

The same happens with the Pri/Sec measurements ie Red Y is 6.573 Green Y is 24.536 and Blue Y 2.851
(note I'd attach the files but it gives me an error every time I try to attach a file today)

many thanks again,

Kopa13

Y in HCFR is reported in absolute units of cd/m^2 which for white can range anywhere from about 40 cd/m^2 (FP, cinema lighting) to 100 cd/m^2 (standard monitor level) or higher if in bright surroundings. The x,y coordinates are normalized such that they range from 0 to 1.

nobody else with this issue? nobody knows which file is used for the blip?

anybody know which wav file the software uses for the blip during readings? for some reason, the blip does not work any longer. the system sounds work, and I checked preferences to ensure the blip option is checked. I tried reinstalling, no go. the only change is the probe, I was using a Spyder, abd now use a Display LT.

thanks in advance

nobody else with this issue? nobody knows which file is used for the blip? HCFR probably calls whatever wave file the Windows Asterisk program event is set to. Try resetting your Windows sounds to the "Windows Default" scheme using the Sounds applet in Control Panel. On W2K this is "Chord.wav", on XP it's "Window XP Error.Wav".

Y in HCFR is reported in absolute units of cd/m^2 which for white can range anywhere from about 40 cd/m^2 (FP, cinema lighting) to 100 cd/m^2 (standard monitor level) or higher if in bright surroundings. The x,y coordinates are normalized such that they range from 0 to 1.

What he said.

Although personally, I think 100cd/m^2 is kinda dim for my taste, but the ambient lighting in my viewing area isn't exactly optimal. I shot for about 150cd/m^2.

Many Thanks Armyg., Zoyd for your help. alluringReality what you said makes much sense now ;) thanks.

Understanding that the difussor that came with the i1 LT is not good, is there a particular model of a difussor (and perhaps a link to get this) that it is good for the i1 LT?

And also is there an otpion that I need to check in the HFCR v1.22 (I can't seem to find any) when I am taking readings with a difussor off the lens (assuming at about 1 foot distance from the lens)?

Regards,

kopa13

Many Thanks Armyg., Zoyd for your help. alluringReality what you said makes much sense now ;) thanks.

Understanding that the difussor that came with the i1 LT is not good, is there a particular model of a difussor (and perhaps a link to get this) that it is good for the i1 LT?

And also is there an otpion that I need to check in the HFCR v1.22 (I can't seem to find any) when I am taking readings with a difussor off the lens (assuming at about 1 foot distance from the lens)?

Regards,

kopa13

Here is a 3rd party information diffuser..registration is free to view postings

http://www.datapopuli.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=545&highlight=diffuser

Understanding that the difussor that came with the i1 LT is not good, is there a particular model of a difussor (and perhaps a link to get this) that it is good for the i1 LT?



Whatever diffuser you intend to use (the one included with the i1 will work fine) you have to compensate for the color shift and change in transmission by using the XYZ adjustment function in HCFR. A quick how-to is in this (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=11725686&postcount=1073) post.

Whatever diffuser you intend to use (the one included with the i1 will work fine) you have to compensate for the color shift and change in transmission by using the XYZ adjustment function in HCFR. A quick how-to is in this (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=11725686&postcount=1073) post.

I never thought of that. Not that I really thought much about diffusors anyway since I have a rear projection tv, but that's a really good way to do it.

Sorry for feeding you more misleading info kopa13.

Whatever diffuser you intend to use (the one included with the i1 will work fine) you have to compensate for the color shift and change in transmission by using the XYZ adjustment function in HCFR. A quick how-to is in this (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=11725686&postcount=1073) post.

Thanks Zoyd. The only reason why I think the diffuser that comes with the i1 LT is not good is because of this thread http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=770737&highlight=display2&page=2

Obviously, I'd prefer it using the one that came with it as I wound'nt have to buy another 1 ;)

Thanks for the link Rich. ArmyG, no worries. Questions like mine help clarifying things a bit more ;)

Regards,

kopa13

Thanks Zoyd. The only reason why I think the diffuser that comes with the i1 LT is not good is because of this thread http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=770737&highlight=display2&page=2

Obviously, I'd prefer it using the one that came with it as I wound'nt have to buy another 1 ;)

That thread points out that the diffuser is not neutral, hence my comment that you have to correct for this color shift using the XYZ adjustment technique. Any diffuser has the potential to color shift so this technique should be used whenever you have a sensor that is calibrated in luminance mode (no diffuser) that you want to use in illuminance mode with an uncalibrated diffuser. It also has the benefit that you will correct for any screen gain and screen color shift and get absolute luminance numbers in cd/m^2 when viewing the PJ as if you were viewing directly off the screen.

Thanks!

Should I use Black compensation, and RGB level 16-235 when calibrating with i1pro and a DLP PJ.

Can someone briefly explain what the differences between the modes are?

When to use/not to use black compensation.
When to set RGB Level 16-235 / 0-255

Cheers!

Hi all. Quick question. I've been out of the loop for a while, and xmas is coming, so I figured I'll ask for a new colorimeter (to replace the useless spider express I bought). Is the Display LT still the best consumer product for calibration (that's affordable)?

P.S. I have a Hitachi 46" RPTV, but am considering upgrading to a plasma in the next couple years.

Should I use Black compensation, and RGB level 16-235 when calibrating with i1pro and a DLP PJ.

Can someone briefly explain what the differences between the modes are?

When to use/not to use black compensation.
When to set RGB Level 16-235 / 0-255

Cheers!

on the 16-235 / 0-255, doesnt matter unless your using the HCFR pattern generator...but sake of argument, just choose 16-235 for your case..

Run a greyscale and see which GAMMA best represents your display (first do contrast, brightness, then set your greyscale, then RUN it)..Once again, you can toggle, between both Black comp and Camera Gamma to see which one is represented better..- of my understanding ;)

Hi all. Quick question. I've been out of the loop for a while, and xmas is coming, so I figured I'll ask for a new colorimeter (to replace the useless spider express I bought). Is the Display LT still the best consumer product for calibration (that's affordable)?

P.S. I have a Hitachi 46" RPTV, but am considering upgrading to a plasma in the next couple years.


Yes..but if you have a Plasma (on somecases)- right now ColorHCFR has had some issue with overstating RED..V2 ColorHCFR, I assume will correct this..CalmanV3 has corrected the issue with d2 and plasmas..

Yes..but if you have a Plasma (on somecases)- right now ColorHCFR has had some issue with overstating RED..V2 ColorHCFR, I assume will correct this..CalmanV3 has corrected the issue with d2 and plasmas..

Thank you very much. I take it that the new version of Calman probably hasn't done anything to improve the accuracy of the Spider Express readings (if that's even possible), has it?

Thank you very much. I take it that the new version of Calman probably hasn't done anything to improve the accuracy of the Spider Express readings (if that's even possible), has it?


I believe the spyder was the 1st colometer they supported and they have, what I believe, is direct support from Colorvision. So they have maxed out support on this colorimeter..the truth is that you can buy Calman now before its release of V3 and be able to use the Spyder as well as the D2, without additional licensing..

im not going to talk further about Calman - your free to go to their website and ask the guys there questions on the spyder

Thank you very much. I take it that the new version of Calman probably hasn't done anything to improve the accuracy of the Spider Express readings (if that's even possible), has it?

no, it's not possible, the probe is limited by it's design and factory calibration, not by which software package you use. colorvision has released a new spyder that competes directly with the D2 and costs about the same, I have not seen any head-to-head comparisons with it though.

no, it's not possible, the probe is limited by it's design and factory calibration, not by which software package you use. colorvision has released a new spyder that competes directly with the D2 and costs about the same, I have not seen any head-to-head comparisons with it though.

I thought the new spyder was over $200+, while the D2LT could be had for about $130ish..I will consider the spyder if the reviews come in strong for it..or better than my D2 DTP94 and HCFR Probe

I believe the spyder was the 1st colometer they supported and they have, what I believe, is direct support from Colorvision. So they have maxed out support on this colorimeter..the truth is that you can buy Calman now before its release of V3 and be able to use the Spyder as well as the D2, without additional licensing..

im not going to talk further about Calman - your free to go to their website and ask the guys there questions on the spyder

no, it's not possible, the probe is limited by it's design and factory calibration, not by which software package you use. colorvision has released a new spyder that competes directly with the D2 and costs about the same, I have not seen any head-to-head comparisons with it though.

Thank you both... Yeah, I figured that it was shotty hardware rather than the software, which is why I completely gave up any hope of getting a proper calibration with it after only a few attempts.

As for pricing, yeah, I've found the Display LT going for $130, which I'm definitely going to take advantage of (since my gift limit will probably be $150). On that note, anyone wanna buy a POS Spyder Express (j/k)?

Hi,

I'm calibrating my CRT FRT pj using the HCFR probe, I prefer to use the continuos measurement method. But how do you get a graph of what your gamma is doing, what measurement do you need to run to get the data to plot that one.

Thanks

Hi,

I'm calibrating my CRT FRT pj using the HCFR probe, I prefer to use the continuos measurement method. But how do you get a graph of what your gamma is doing, what measurement do you need to run to get the data to plot that one.

Thanks

luminance histogram, then you can right click the pattern and ask to view it logarithmic

I have a Pantone labeled ColorVision Spyder (bundled with OptiCAL) and has the LCD Spyder option that I've used to calibrate my monitors (and laptops - they best they can be anyways).

Will this work with this software or are the references to Spyder in this thread for the Spyder 2 version?

Thanks in advance!

EDIT: When I plugged in the Sypder to my laptop (XP), I see "Colorvision Sypder 2" (found new hardware Dialog) though it doesn't exactly look like the one on www.colorvision.com and it just says Sypder on the bottom. If I remember right, this was an updated model when I purchased it in 2002.

ifs its not the SPYDER II , then no..but give it a try I suppose by getting the .DLL file that is in the Optical software and add it to the COLORHCFR folder were the programs .exe file is at..but i doubt it will work

Hi Rich,

Thanks for the info. So do I have to save the data first, I'm sure I clicked on that graph while I was do the cal (cont. measurement) but there was nothing there.

Hi Rich,

Thanks for the info. So do I have to save the data first, I'm sure I clicked on that graph while I was do the cal (cont. measurement) but there was nothing there. While luminance is displayed on the histogram, it sounds like you are looking for realtime continous measures on the Gamma chart. The gamma chart is not updated by cont. measures, rather it is calculated based on the set of Y values in the greyscale measure.