I have a hex nut I glued on my spyder and fit it to a tripod, about a foot or less hitting at about a 45degree angle to the screen.. I aim for the center of the screen, so I stay a bit below that..

I have a hex nut I glued on my spyder and fit it to a tripod, about a foot or less hitting at about a 45degree angle to the screen.. I aim for the center of the screen, so I stay a bit below that..

Why do you use a 45 degree angle rather than 90?

Why do you use a 45 degree angle rather than 90?


at 90 you will be hitting the shadow of the probe, you want to angle away from it - and up to center

looks like a need a tripod.... any good places to look?

looks like a need a tripod.... any good places to look?

I bought one for $20.00 at Homedepot, by where they keep their electrial saws, its actually one that has a level on it - comes w/bag included..

Rich,

Here are my results.... Let me know what you think and how to best proceed.

Thanks

Hey Bean -

Not sure what your doing there..something is not right with your file or your not sure what exactly to measure for.

Are you in Europe?? you have selected under Preference/Ref as PAL (maybe this is because I viewed it at work - I have the HCFR here also)
If you not in Europe, select NTSC, also click FROM STANDARD instead of 2.2 gamma
use xyz as your evaluation, since you need to look for .313 and .329.

click on the measure (camera) for greyscale, pull up AVIA 0IRE (black) and so on and so forth. This will read all your r,g,b for greyscale purpose.

Do not bother right now with the primary and secondary readings, first get a grasp on doing the greyscale. Once you get your greyscale close to .313 and .329on each IRE as possible (mainly 30IRE and up can hit that mark with spyder)

Been playing around with the program, and wonder why I get different readings if I make an Grey Scale measure vs. if I make an continues reading ?
Using (Spyder II + Sony VW50)

When I do the continues reading I let the sensor take more time to read, and have got a quite good tracking from IRE 20 to 100.

But when I just make a Quick Measure I don't get the same good tracking.
Why?

Could it be that my Dynamic Iris (Sony VW50) play tricks with me?

Question about the CIE Diagram,

I get a larger white line outside the dark one equal wider color space ?
How do I cut it down, do I need to ?

It's quite equal all around so it's just larger.

Rich,

Thanks for the tips, my rgb chart now shows red and blue.. I did two things:
1. Removed the green filter from the S2 device.
2. Set the program from PROJ to LCD...

I'm off to run another test series using the Filter and LCD.. to see if its the filter or the LCD setting that made the difference.

Thanks again.

Hey Bean what are you calibrating

I have NEVER used Proj for anthying

For DLP and LCD Front Projectors, leave the baffle on - USE LCD Mode
For CRT REAR projector - Leave it on and use LCD Mode (selecting CRT is for Direct View tube tvs) - trust me on this one - I had a bad red in the greyscale although I was hitting the mark - then when I switch (thanks to HDHolic for this tip), my red was skyrockted.As soon as I did this, I brought back the red and no more red in my greyscale..and I tracked beautifully - at least i think :0)

For LCD computer monitors - Leave baffle on - LCD mode
In fact...the only time I think you need to remove it is for CRT DIRECT VIEW tv, which I do not think you have.

or follow this - its on page 16 or 17 of this at near the top

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9083482&&#post9083482

Rich,

Im working on an Optoma HD72... So its DLP rear proj...

I just ran some more tests.. and yes its better with the filter on and in LCD mode in the software.
I think that was the problems in my earlier test post, i had done the measure with the software set at PROJ for the S2...

Do you happen to know what the best degamma settings are for this PJ?
the gamma curve I get is way above the curve near 90 and below the curve <50...

Thanks.

Hi Bean -

I think what you need to achieve with Gamma ..is an average of 2.2 that is a smooth curve from top to bottom..I am sorry - but I am too learning as I go..

btw..folks, I got the DTP-94 and here are my results compared to the spyder. The comparison is AFTER using the spyder to calibrate my Mits55807 CRT and the DTP-94 is just resolving whatever the spyder setting was..LCD mode left on for the DTP-94 (guessing here that the spyder CRT mode and the DTP mode are inherently the same - for direct view only- as pictured in the manual)

Seems like the spyder and the dtp-94 are resulting similarly but on the lowend, its obviousl that the DTP-94 can go down further..One thing that is seriously different that wont show up..is the actual SPEED of the DTP-94 it reads much MUCH faster...

It looks like I will be selling my Spyder 2 express (SOLD)..I like the way the DTP-94 works..Btw..BIg Thumbs up for Adorama Camera for a threeday delivery and the cheapest price out there..

Spyder doesnt seem to bad folks..I think we kinda do have a winner..just be patient with it..make sure to pay attention to how you set the spyder up (baffle on/baffle off issue) - extend your reading of low IRE for extended reading..that is what I did..and the similiarities are close ...

EDIT: I had the wrong 2nd file..it was for my DLP projector

... and no removable baffle on the dtp-94. Welcome to the x-rite dtp-94 club Rich!

Clearly I don't know how to read Rich's results, because from what I can tell, both gray scales get crazy below 20ire, with both meters.... What's the right way to read his results?

Im working on an Optoma HD72... So its DLP rear proj...

HD72 is a DLP front projector, I think.

... and no removable baffle on the dtp-94. Welcome to the x-rite dtp-94 club Rich!

Guyz..I give Spyder some props for its price point but...

The dtp-94 is reading at 10IRE on my Front Projector Mits 3000U (dlp).and its insanely quick to read...

As stated..no baffle..although I tried to super glue a hex nuton it to fit on my tripod..that didnt work..but I had some velcro that took care of that


i am OFFICIALLY A DTP-94 fanatic..

Clearly I don't know how to read Rich's results, because from what I can tell, both gray scales get crazy below 20ire, with both meters.... What's the right way to read his results?

below 20IRE is nothing to worry about..there are very VERY few probes that can read below..with a DLP because of its bulb technology..it can read it..but with CRT its a complete struggle..if you can consistently hit 20IRE and up ..your doing exceptionally well..

a note..most of the times when you see reviews..those are based..on 30IRE, 80IRE..results...

so nathan..you are right...it does go crazy below 20IRE..and with lamp technology, its diff to get a 100IRE flat because they tend to lean too much to blue..

btw..the 20IRE down is from the spyder struggling..I just read my spyder settings on my crt set and reviewed the results with the DTP-94, which I know NOW can do down and hit that mark..I never did any adj with the DTP-94

Rich, congrats on your new DTP-94 and your new results :) ! Are you enjoying your projector now?! So where did you get the DTP from/what price? I might want to give it a try some time.

$108.50 from Adorama Camera..online..

Someone earlier today posted that they do not have it online anymore but I purchased it online on Saturday, maybe I got the last one..but I would actually try calling them if it doesnt show up

adoramacamera.com

Here is for my Mits3000U..I know I have some work in the Gamma part..but nevertheless..look at the readings a 10IRE...Im pretty happy with the results..as I am currently viewin movies and all of them are looking good..not that they didnt with the spyder but I may have been clipping RED contrast (red Drive) and reduce it using the dtp-94 and balance it out a little more by using other colors

Looks great!

I received my DTP-94 from Adorama ($99), ordered it on 12/3 and received it
on 12/6. Very pleased with this probe vs. the Spyder.. it reads much faster and
appears to be more accurate at all IRE level, especially in the 10-30 range. The
spyder would take forever to complete the reading. HCFR also responds much
nicer with the DTP-94 than the Spyder.

Here's a copy of my results for my Optoma H79 FP. I am still tweaking a bit,
especially gamma and the red "run out" at the higher levels. From what I read,
the red run out is the nature of the best (H79).

Anyway, if anyone is on the fence for purchasing the DTP-94 with DLP FP, take
the plunge, it's a quality unit in my opinion.

Unit works great with Calman as well.

Edit: Bummer, it looks like Adorama either sold out or don't carry this unit
anymore. Must be all those AVS members :)

One thing to note about low light measurements. It's not the % stim that matters. It's the Y value that the sensor registers. At least at least for CRT's, the way I set the black point, is to set the brightness so that 0% stim gives 0.1-0.2 cd/m^2. You can set a wacked-out black point by cranking brightness up too high with 10-20% stim patterns and you'll get very high Y values. My experience has shown that 0.1-0.2cd/m^2 works pretty well for the black point.

Best,
jeff

hdefjunkie

The gamma definetly needs some work :D ! After comparing HCFR results to Calman, this is what I learned about the gamma settings in HCFR with Spyder2 and perhaps DTP.

Standard "gamma" setting=2.22
2.22 "gamma" setting= 2.5

If you want to calibrate your gamma to 2.5 have the reference set to 2.22 in HCFR. For those calibrating to 2.22 set to standard.

One thing to note about low light measurements. It's not the % stim that matters. It's the Y value that the sensor registers. At least at least for CRT's, the way I set the black point, is to set the brightness so that 0% stim gives 0.1-0.2 cd/m^2. You can set a wacked-out black point by cranking brightness up too high with 10-20% stim patterns and you'll get very high Y values. My experience has shown that 0.1-0.2cd/m^2 works pretty well for the black point.

Best,
jeff

Man - I wish I understood all that ;)

Hi Fix
Could it be that my Dynamic Iris (Sony VW50) play tricks with me?
It's certainly that. You have an option in preferences to put a dynamic iris latency time, to make the soft wait some times between displaying pattern and actually starting measure. Try put something around 2000 ms. You may increase or reduce this latency time with experience.

Regards
Georges

for some reason I am having a hard time adjusting0 ire to 30 ire I was able to set the rgb to almost perfect from 40 ire to 100 ire any suggestions?

try to balance 40 and 30..greyscale are hard to get perfect but get close - make a compromise

sometimes if you use too much on one side it will have a hard time adjusting on the other end of the IRE..its a teetertotter adjustment...

I have an older (2001) Hitachi 53swx01b Ultravision RPTV. Does anyone know if there are gamma settings in the SM?

Thanks
Rick

I think most CRT sets at that time have some kind of gamma settings in the hidden service menu..Usually the service code will have the word GAM in it...for instance, in Sony's its UGAM, i think in my 2001 mits crt its the same (not sure but its obvious which one it is).

Thanks Rich,
I've looked but no luck

You may need to look at a service manual..or post the question...

go to www.homecentric.com, the guy who runs that website, knows alot about hitachis..Bill Gr..

I have the service manual but nothing stands out that says (GAMMA CONTROL) :D

I have the service manual but nothing stands out that says (GAMMA CONTROL) :D

those bastards... :eek:

My thoughts exactly ! ;)

Rich and all,

Here is my latest file for the Optoma HD72 (i stand corrected) front projector.
Software settings: lcd, Standard Gamma and 500ms for measurements.

Here are the projectors settings:
Mode: cinema
Contrast: 6
Brightness: -4
color: 0
Tint: 0
Sharpness: -4

Degamma: pc
Brilliant color: 1
True Vivid: 0
Color temp: 0
Red gain: 4 Grean Gain: -2 Blue Gain -11
Red bias: 0 grean bias: 0 Blue bias: 0

Let me know what you think, I can't seem to get the gamma curve corrected. It is really spiked on the high top end and the CIE chart show green high as well.

One other thing: the screen is a DIY, painted onto drywall. It is a 12 black, 4 umber mix with Behr flat white. I think If I really want to crank this thing up maybe redo the screen using 20 black/4 umber. Just a thought...

I will check later Bean..but one thing I did notice..why did you select PC as your gamma..try to see if you have a Theater, Cinema mode

does anybody have settings for a Barco 701mm crt projector?

I have an older (2001) Hitachi 53swx01b Ultravision RPTV. Does anyone know if there are gamma settings in the SM?

Thanks
Rick
I have a Hitachi 51F510, for gamma it has STATG10=Gamma Black Gain, STATG20=Gamma Bright Gain. I don't know if it applies to your set as well but you might want to look for those.

Bean

Definitely set your gamma @ Film mode, not PC. That'll probably resolve your gamma spike, if not check your contrast level. If it's too high, it'll cause that alot of times. About the green oversaturation, it seems that's a natural issue with those projectors.

Hey Bean -

Your quick to learn..your tracking pretty nicely..as mentioned, change your gamma setting...

Also - make sure for your greyscale readings that under Pref tab that you select 16-235, and when you read your prim/secondaries switch it to 0-255..

not much more advice..

just remember for setting black levels (brightness)..put up the 0IRE and pause it, walk up to your screen/wall and turn it up (you may see it already) for mosquito noise - that is your mirros being on (typical DLP) turn it down until it dissapears (means OFF mirrors) that will be your black level. For Contrast, in AVIA, the pluge needle pulse pattern that is your typical contrast pattern, look at the below, and bring your contrast up until you see the right white bar dissapear (or one of them - not sure - there are 2 of them next to each other) and then bring it down a couple of clicks (2-3) this will be your contrast setting..afterdoing a greyscale it important to go back and check your brighntess and contrast setting to fine tweak it, if necessary.

Hey guys. Since i can no longer find the DTP-94, is the XR the newer version?

Thanks guys!
Carmine.

The monaco optix XR is the latest package that contains the latest dtp-94 instrument that can be had for a good price. Try normancamera.com.

Best,
jeff

Thanks HD and Rich..

I did try all four modes, Cinema, Video, Graphics and PC.. I set it at PC because I read somewhere on another thread that this was the correct setting to get the Gamma right for this model. Anyways I might go back and try cinema again and see if reducing the green/blue will get me closer...

I'll repost the settings at that point...

Ooops,
On that chart I left the software setting at 16-235 for the primary/secondary measurements. So Maybe they are actually pretty close.

The monaco optix XR is the latest package that contains the latest dtp-94 instrument that can be had for a good price. Try normancamera.com.

Best,
jeff

Thanks Jeff!!!

Now the real question - I know this is the topic of much dispute here but i'm just wondering if the DTP94 device is going to give me more accurate results over my Spyder 2.

Thanks again.
Carmine.

Where the advantages are with the DTP-94, it quicker, its handles lower IRE (10-20IRE), while the spyder will struggle a bit at 20IRE, but is formidable after..and the results are very VERY similar...With the spyder you will need to increase read time and be much more patient...not with the DTP-94 (plus no hassle of baffle on or off)

If you can swing for a DTP-94, I wouldnt 2nd guess it, but if you want to save a couple of bucks..the spyder2 will do just fine (spyder2 express package is the cheapest)

Heck, I just got my DTP-94 yesterday and someone bought my SPyder2 yesterday..and I am sure they will be happy with it..I just like the DTP for its quickness because it helps me work in a shorter period with better results at 10-20IRE..nothing much different going up..

does anybody have settings for a Barco 701mm crt projector?

you might want to go to the CRT forum...lots of good help there..

btw..although Ive never seen a barco at work..I hear alot of good things about them..

Where the advantages are with the DTP-94, it quicker, its handles lower IRE (10-20IRE), while the spyder will struggle a bit at 20IRE, but is formidable after..and the results are very VERY similar...With the spyder you will need to increase read time and be much more patient...not with the DTP-94 (plus no hassle of baffle on or off)

If you can swing for a DTP-94, I wouldnt 2nd guess it, but if you want to save a couple of bucks..the spyder2 will do just fine (spyder2 express package is the cheapest)

Heck, I just got my DTP-94 yesterday and someone bought my SPyder2 yesterday..and I am sure they will be happy with it..I just like the DTP for its quickness because it helps me work in a shorter period with better results at 10-20IRE..nothing much different going up..

I'm looking forward to my new (used) Spyder2. :) The long read time is not too bad for me: I have a dynamic iris projector, so I'll have to pause for each reading, anyway. And my projector's controls (adjustments) -- at least the ones I am comfortable with -- are pretty non-granular so being able to read values at 10ire would be interesting, but not too useful for me.

I hope the Optix-XR REALLY is the same DTP-94 that is better at low IRE than the Spyder2..... I'm so tired of buying Spyder's because they incrementally improved the hardware over the years without clearly defining which was which.... with my luck, the Monaco package includes a "generic" level device which is not as accurate :(

:cool:

Been fiddling trying to work out what does what and slowly but surely I'm heading in the right direction.

This is my latest using the DIY HCFR probe.

AE900E (NZ model)
Pany HT520
Component at 576i(one day be able to upgrade to 720p)

Found measurements capable down to 10IRE, but to get the 00IRE to register I wound up the brightness by 4 clicks for the 00IRE then reset back to set point.
I have done some tests on a collector gain and had some progress, just needs fine tuning. But shows promise for the bottom end.

I spent a long time setting the RGB color and tint using the CIE REC601, once as close as possible I found the grey scale tracking twice as good from the start and saved alot of time endlessly running the grey scale.
Although I broke a number of rules, I tweaked overall contrast, color and tint all the time. Why?, because the gamma was clipping for a start, so had to back off contrast. The CIE points moved and so re-adjusted color and tint, a point here and there.
Blue is a little off on the CIE, but the probable reason is the blue shift in my painted screen,a white and lampblack grey. Think I got it under control, but a little oversaturated.

going to bed....2:16am tired but happy ;)

I hope the Optix-XR REALLY is the same DTP-94 that is better at low IRE than the Spyder2..... I'm so tired of buying Spyder's because they incrementally improved the hardware over the years without clearly defining which was which.... with my luck, the Monaco package includes a "generic" level device which is not as accurate :(

:cool:


It is..I have it..the OPTIX-XR has the DTP-94 PROBE with it..as mentioned I just got it two days ago..so IM COINFIRMING it..the probe even stated DTP-94

Here is a suggestion for the HCFR developers. On the gamma chart break it appart into its constituent colors. That way you can see if one color is over powering or clipping.

jimwhite,
Yes we're sure. Make sure the box you get refers to optix XR. the key is XR. This is monaco's relabelling of the dtp-94. This naming convention has been in place without change for more than a year.

If you order, make sure you're ordering the monaco optix xr and you can't go wrong.

Best,
jeff

Any Idea when the NTSC Version of the dvd will be available? Will it be available in english as well?

Here is a suggestion for the HCFR developers. On the gamma chart break it appart into its constituent colors. That way you can see if one color is over powering or clipping.

right click the pattern for more info..

I've got my grayscale tracked pretty nicely, but anything from 30ire to 00ire is not reading correctly on the spyder2. Looks like I may need to buy the DTP-94.

:)

Gonna do the primaries and secondaries this weekend.

N3W813

Good job

ok... I guess I have to install the software to read folks attachments... I guess it's won't run on a mac since my primary machine is a mac?

jeff

its not MAC compatible..I think

Any Idea when the NTSC Version of the dvd will be available? Will it be available in english as well?


what - your not up to date on your French..MERCI :D

Hey does anyone know where I can find DTP-94 (monaco optix xr) at a discent price?
Abviously no problem finding Spyder II.

Thanks

adorama camera.com was the cheapest, but I think Igot the last one..because people have been mentioning that they no longer have it on their website and have called to verify

if you scroll to another posting below about the DTP-94, there is someone who posted where else, although a bit more money..

Hi bean-66
Here is a suggestion for the HCFR developers. On the gamma chart break it appart into its constituent colors. That way you can see if one color is over powering or clipping.
It's already available, on option. Right click on luma chart, and check the options you need.

Anyway, it is not easy to interpret component gamma value. You should use RGB level chart for that, it's much more intuitive. Luma graph is nice for general gamma, and component gamma is sometimes (but rarely) useful when you have very big trouble and do not understand anything ;)

The English help file is not ready, but it's well advanced. We continue working hard on it. Please be patient, we are not a commercial enterprise and all guys work during their free time ;)

Regards
Georges

George -

Thanks for the great software...much appreciated by many of us..this has been a very fun experience...

ok... I guess I have to install the software to read folks attachments... I guess it's won't run on a mac since my primary machine is a mac?

jeff
Why don't u run Virtual PC?

bean-66, Right click on the graph, you can already do that ;) (a probably many other things you don't immediatly spot) :D

Edit --> Just seen Georges answer ;)

--Patrice

bean-66, Right click on the graph, you can already do that ;) (a probably many other things you don't immediatly spot) :D

Edit --> Just seen Georges answer ;)

--Patrice


if both of you scroll up just about two posting below. his question.I already mentioned it.. ;)

Hey does anyone know where I can find DTP-94 (monaco optix xr) at a discent price?
Abviously no problem finding Spyder II.

Thanks

Check normancamera.com i believe it is $129.00

Here is another quick question guys. Has anyone been able to see what the degree of error might be when using a Spyder? For instance, our ideal readings will be
x 0.312, y 0.329 - so if someone has an estimated figure for the amount of error the Spyder induces, we can factor it in to get more accurate results.

Just an idea.

trying to account for a constant amount of error is not the right thing to do. I made a post a bit back that listed several kinds of errors. Each requires a different solution, or there might not be a solution due to a hardware limitation.

jeff

OK Jeff i got ya!

Thanks.
Carmine

if both of you scroll up just about two posting below. his question.I already mentioned it.. ;)
You're becoming a power user ;)

Want a trip with new beta ?

--Patrice

You're becoming a power user ;)

Want a trip with new beta ?

--Patrice


Sure thing... :)

What's new in upcoming release?

FYI

I've been pricing the Spyder, Optix-xr, and Eye-One pods. Found what looks like a good price on the spyder2express on buy[.]com. $55.81 shipped w/ google checkout.

I think I'm going to hold out for the Optix-xr or maybe the Eye-One if that one gets supported (hint, hint :)).

I've read this whole thread and it looks like mostly CRT and Projector owners posting. Which one of these would be best for a Sony 60" SXRD A2000?

Well the Optix is already supported. It is also known as the DTP-94. From what I have read, it seems that the DTP-94 is much better at reading the lower IRE levels.

Hope this helps.
Carmine.

Laric,
check your pm for an alternative way to email me. There was an issue with the link you sent me.

Best,
jeff

what is the best dvd to use for setting grayscale. I have avia, dve and getgray? I was not able to run the dvd on hcfr because my dvd player does not take pal.

I prefer GetGray over Avia. I don't have DVE.

do you use 10% window pattern or the full window pattern I have a plasma television?

You need to use the window patterns for a plasma.

I've been exploring building the DIY probe. And I've read with interest the experience of Smokey Joe. Laric has said that the goal was to be able to build the probe for about $50. I think that's realistic once you get over the hurdle of building the first one, not that many people will really need more than one. I'm not really knowledgable about this kind of hardware and software, but I can certainly solder (even surface mount) and build something once I get all the parts in front of me. So far, there seems to be several sticking points in the process:

o Getting a board built. I've never had a board built before, but from some looking around on the net, it looks like it takes about $25 or $30 to make a board plus shipping. The costs look like they go down with more volume, but I probably couldn't use more than two or three of these boards. I don't live near a city that might have a shop that I could talk to directly, so the net seems like the best bet. For this small volume, the single layer version looks best. But if there were more demand, it would be relatively inexpensive to do a run of the two layer version. The logistics of that might be difficult, though.

o Getting a definitive list of part numbers that can be ordered from a company like Digikey or Mouser. As I said, I don't live near a city that would have these parts in stock. Do these 'Farnell' numbers describe something unambigous? I don't really know. If an easily ordered list could be developed, that would be very helpful. Hopefully, that would include the case. From looking at the pictures, I'm having trouble seeing an advantage to using surface mount parts. It looks to me like the kind with leads would be easier to solder and be just fine. If I'm wrong about that I'd appreciate some advice.

o Getting the 18F2550 programmed initially. Apparently once it's programmed, updates can be done in place through the usb connection. There seem to be programmers available on Ebay for something over $20 with shipping. And the Microchip programmer is around $50, but requires some wiring to make work. I did run across a post on the picbasic uk site. I can't post the url, but it's thread number 703. It describes a way to program a PIC with a serial port and three resistors. This might be suitable for a small number of burns. If it were possible to incorporate something like this into the DIY probe board so the 18F2550 could be programmed in place, that would be even easier. Apparently this works with the WinPic800 software.

So this is how it looks to me at this point. I'm sure it could be built for $50 after the first one. But doing the first one, especially with getting more than one board built to have a spare, puts the initial cost much closer to the commercial offerings. So, what do you think? Am I looking at this correctly? Should I give up on this and look for one of the commercial offerings?

Steve

I'd go with commercial product since it gives you the flexibility to use it with other calibrating programs should you decide to move on. If you get the DTP-94, I see it very hard to get a performance gain with the DIY. Maybe someone with a DIY and commercial product can post comments.

Sure, if you can afford it and don't want to bother with DIY, it is the way to go, no doubt.

We acheive figures of less than $30 (all parts including 5m USB cable) for the DIY, this was for group buying to build 100 probes.

A DIYer should probably be around $50 assuming he have the tools to do it's own PCB and PIC programmer... If you add those, you're better of going commercial ;)

Parts are pretty easy to find, let me know what cause you troubles... I assume Farnell refs are internationnal but I haven't checked. The box ($1 !) could be hard to find (outside France) but any other could do it...

Surface mounts sensors are mandatory because they aren't available in other form :D

I have hand build about 20 probes (prototypes and finals) and they are no brainer.

--Patrice

Patrice,
Check my post above regarding a problem with the link you sent me via pm. I pm'd back with an alternative contact.

jeff

We are not yet ready for a wide spread of 1.2 beta, but it should not be a long run...

For a quick overview, there is quite a lot of improvements in GUI, especially when doing multiple measures and comparisons. Quite some improvements in simultaneous multiple probes support. English and German help files and finally support for new probes... ;)

--Patrice

Thanks for all your work Patrice. Great tool!

DIY'ers:

I recommend:

1. for the PCB, use expresspcb:

http://www.expresspcb.com/ExpressPCBHtm/Download.htm

Free software, very easy to learn and use. 3 boards for $69 IIRC. About 2 day turnaround. WAY easier than making your own. I used to make my own, it's just not worth the hassle.

2. For parts, I prefer Mouser becasue of Digikey's minimum handling fee. But both are fine.

3. For programmers I highly recommend the epic by melabs:

http://www.melabs.com/products/epic.htm

Pricey but rock solid and supported.

4. For DVD's I recommend PAL/NTSC GetGray ;);):D.


HTH,
Scott

Today I received my monaco optix xr packege with the dtp94 probe.

Run some first tests with my Sanyo PLV-Z4 and was able to get my first attempt to calibrate it in about half an hour.

I big thanks to al the people who developed the HCFR progam. It's great! :)

Eagerly awaiting version 1.2 with the English help file!! :D

Check normancamera.com i believe it is $129.00

Yeah they still have a few, I have one on the way from them right now. I ordered it last night, and I just got the confirmation email today that it's being shipped. For anyone looking to buy one, this is one of the better prices to be found now. As almost all other places that still have any of them, are asking $200+ for one. And because it and even just the DTP-94 sensor itself are both products that have recently been discontinued, the supply of them will only get smaller as time goes on.

Jos-

good job, welcome to the DTP-94 family...

Incredible job on the 1st attempt..Not sure how much more you can perfect it, but, if I were you, try working on the lower end (make sure to record your current values)..and make minor adjustments..

The most important thing is to get your Delta E anwhere for each IRE (especially from 10IRE up) from 3 and down. If you highlight your 20IRE, and then click on DISPLAY MEASUREMENT INFORMATION - you will see that its a 6, then 30IRE is 4, try making minor adjustment to see if you can bring those down just a tad..like I said - youve done a fantastic job...

BIG THUMBS UP

Nice job on the Z4! Make sure you use the settings I posted up here http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=737550&page=17&pp=30 for best results. For your gamma, if your calibrating to 2.2 select standard, for 2.5 select 2.2. These are the setting that matched the "other" program with tests I performed. Your green point seems very saturated on the CIE chart. See if your projector allows for changes on the primary colors.

Nice job on the Z4! Make sure you use the settings I posted up here http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=737550&page=17&pp=30 for best results. For your gamma, if your calibrating to 2.2 select standard, for 2.5 select 2.2. These are the setting that matched the "other" program with tests I performed. Your green point seems very saturated on the CIE chart. See if your projector allows for changes on the primary colors.

Make sure also that 16-235 gets selected for greyscale
and for reading your primaries and secondaries that you select 0-255

We are not yet ready for a wide spread of 1.2 beta, but it should not be a long run...

For a quick overview, there is quite a lot of improvements in GUI, especially when doing multiple measures and comparisons. Quite some improvements in simultaneous multiple probes support. English and German help files and finally support for new probes... ;)

--Patrice

I'm about to buy a probe. Can you tell us which new probes are being supported? That may sway my decision.

Thanks.

Rich,

Well I didn't change the 0-255/16-235 settings during calibratrion. I think all measurements were done using 0-255. So I'll have to redo the greyscale.

HDHolic,

I checked the post you mentioned. You are referring to filter on/off. This is when using the spyder2 as I recall correctly. My DTP-94 doesn't have a filter.

So when calibrating for a standard 2.2 gamma curve I have to select standard. I think it's strange when I select the value 2.2 the reference gamma curve changes as I thought that 2.2 was the standard gamma curve.

Also I don't know if I can change the primaries on my projector. Anyhow I will wait until my new DVD player has arrived.

As I said this was my first attempt. I used my old pioneer-444 with y/c connection as my 3,5 year old marantz dv-4300 unfortunately died 2 weeks ago (for the 2nd time). I am awaiting the delivery of the Denon 2930 to replace it.
Then I can start some serious calibration sessions :)

So untill then I have some time to reread this entire thread again to get some extra info about using HCFR and do some more experimenting with my current set-up.

Thanks for your comments guys.

I checked the post you mentioned. You are referring to filter on/off. This is when using the spyder2 as I recall correctly. My DTP-94 doesn't have a filter.
Yes, filter suggestion is for S2, LCD setting still applies to DTP-94.

So when calibrating for a standard 2.2 gamma curve I have to select standard. I think it's strange when I select the value 2.2 the reference gamma curve changes as I thought that 2.2 was the standard gamma curve.
Correct, for 2.2 gamma calibration select standard. When you select 2.2, reference curve changes to 2.5 gamma. There seems to be some discrepancy in how HCFR calculates gamma(or perhaps its values used) compared to the other program. I tested an LCD, RP CRT, Direct CRT and HCFR matched the "other" when using those settings.

One thing I want to mention to everyone..whenever setting your contrast and brightness, which should be the 1st part of your calibration - make sure that after or when you feel your getting really close to having your greyscale set, that you recheck those, mine had to be readjusted a couple of clicks (only on brighness)- what happen is that when I went back..my gamma shot up for 2.18ish to 2.2...and my greyscale flatten up a tiny bit on the low IRE for me..

I'm about to buy a probe. Can you tell us which new probes are being supported? That may sway my decision.

Thanks.


I dont think you will find any new supported probe that might be added a better deal than the DTP-94. The spyder2 is still a value probe, but if you feel you want the best that is available out there, then the DTP-94 it is, there is no other competent probe in that price range to even think about - any other one will probably mean a significance in price that undoubtedly will probably give you little meaningful diff from the DTP-94...

One thing I want to mention to everyone..whenever setting your contrast and brightness, which should be the 1st part of your calibration - make sure that after or when you feel your getting really close to having your greyscale set, that you recheck those, mine had to be readjusted a couple of clicks (only on brighness)- what happen is that when I went back..my gamma shot up for 2.18ish to 2.2...and my greyscale flatten up a tiny bit on the low IRE for me..


btw..here is my last calibration on my mits3000U..Its looks that good that I have no more reason to even bother doing anything more to it..I think this is as perfect as my limited experience can get me..next is my CRT which I have yet calibrate with my DTP-94 (used the spyder for that)

Hi Laric,
I'm trying the new beta. I've run into possibly as user error issue (on me not you guys ;-)).
I've installed the dtp-94 software and know where the dll for it is. I've installed the HCFR software (latest beta -the english support is quite good!). I selected my sensor, in the meter setup. I tried to calibrate the offsets and I get an error that XdsIII.DLL is not found. The file name is XdsIII.dll, could that be a problem?

Am I overlooking a setup option for providing the path to the dll for this meter?

Sorry for the basic question.

jeff

BTW- For calibrating Direct CRT, LCD mode-filter on(for those w/ S2), still is the most accurate setting. Selecting CRT w/ filter off, red reads a little higher than it should.

Perhaps, HCFR team can correct all the setting posted the last couple of pages.

Hi Laric,
I'm trying the new beta. I've run into possibly as user error issue (on me not you guys ;-)).
I've installed the dtp-94 software and know where the dll for it is. I've installed the HCFR software (latest beta -the english support is quite good!). I selected my sensor, in the meter setup. I tried to calibrate the offsets and I get an error that XdsIII.DLL is not found. The file name is XdsIII.dll, could that be a problem?

Am I overlooking a setup option for providing the path to the dll for this meter?

Sorry for the basic question.

jeff

did you copy that DLL file from MOnoco folder to the HCFR folder (where the executable is at)..you need to do that so that it works with the program..

Doh! Thanks Rich, I knew it was operator error...

jeff

Perhaps, HCFR team can correct all the setting posted the last couple of pages.
It is likely, we now know this probe (Spyder) need a bit of tweaking ;)
(but I cannot garantied when it'll appear).

greeno, not really an operator error, we assume the probes dlls to be accessible, either through path setup or (easier) by being in same dir as app.

--Patrice

Correct, for 2.2 gamma calibration select standard. When you select 2.2, reference curve changes to 2.5 gamma. There seems to be some discrepancy in how HCFR calculates gamma(or perhaps its values used) compared to the other program. I tested an LCD, RP CRT, Direct CRT and HCFR matched the "other" when using those settings.

Well if I switch the gamma to 'standard' I see that I have some tweaking to go after my first attempt. The gamma looked fine with the 2.2 setting but when switching to standard its further off the line.

Perhaps one of the HCFR guys can shed some light why setting for 'standard' is not the same as when using 2.2

When I was playing with the gamma settings in HCFR I am now confused.

When I set a gamma of 3 the reference curve drops down. I think this means less detail in the dark areas of the picture.

So higher numbers give less detail in dark pictures.

But when increasing the gamma setting on a projector I thought this meant more details in low IRE settings (and a higher gamma number)....
I think I am missing something :(

Hi fellas, I might be new doing calibration type stuff, but I am seeing a pattern of concentration on the grey scale alone. I see this by looking at your results.

You really need to do the primaries and keep an eye on the CIE triangle.
The reason is that getting the basic four functions of brightness,contrast, color and tint(globals) right means that you have to do less grey scale runs. If the primaries fit the triangle perfectly you would hardly need to adjust anything for the RGB individual. This something I read about and also noted when playing with color and tint. One thing I noticed too is that your eyes can fool you using the calibration DVD's and filters. You can be one or two clicks out, especially with tint and as a combined be out quite a bit. This means that when you are trying to balance the greyscale you are trying to compensate for unbalanced primaries.

If you don't believe me just try it for yourself. Turn any individual balances to zero, infact reset eveything to defaults, then tweak the color and tints and use the RGB and triangle. Take the color to the extremes, note the range, then set to close as possible to the triangles, then tint do the same, see the extremes and adjust to best place for the triangle. You probably will need to readadjust the color along with the tint and as you get close you will be clicking one point with each finding the closest point.

Then now when you do the grey scale you will find it alot closer on the first run.
BTW if you turn on the RGB values in the luminance chart you can see top end contrast clipping. If the track heads to the roof of the chart then veers sharply to the white point you have clipping. If more than one color of the primaries, or especially green you need to drop the global contrast by a few clicks. This is where your eyes do work too, note when you the grey scale around IRE90 then IRE100, if you can hardly tell or not see a actual step of shade more than likley you are clipping.
With LCD and probably lesser DLP setting contrast is hard, but there is clues here, but I tell you get it right and you will see clarity in the shades of white you might not have seen before.

Ive also noted to lesser degree the brightness been able to be tweaked by the grey scale. Setting the brightness to low for example will clip or cut off infomation, it will appear black, but infact is just cut off. Try setting your probes a little closer to the screen so you can pick up more luminance and adjust the brightness. Now this is where that experimental 0~5% scale works quite well. You can see where the infomation or color starts. The more sensitive probes have an advantage here and I think the DIY is one better at 10IRE, where all the others are losing it at 20IRE. It's a side effect of all those filters and so on in front of the sensors.

Just some thoughts that may help.

regards
Smokey

jos-nl, to be honnest we don't quite get what's your problem :D

First, to analyse Gamma, you must use the logahrytmic scale, as the regular one do not help seeing anything meaningful.

When selecting "Standard" it just move the reference plot (white dots) without any impact on Gamma computing.

BUT, more importantly, what directly impact the maths on Gamma is selecting "Black Compensation" mode or not.

Some software compute Gamma by using the linéar segment in early stage of the gamma curve. This is (almost) equivalent to our black compensation where params are setup depending on chose standart.

The most common error is to use the NTSC IRE scale (black at 7.5 IRE).
A well known software is fooled by this when using AVIA or DVE but not when using it's own patterns.
We bet you are doing something similar...

That could make a big difference and require to compensate by doing some maths, we don't do this.

Can you tell us what patterns you are using ? what are your results using the build in patterns ?

Also, to analyse this, your .chc file with all measure you can make is key to us, would you mind joining it ?

We may (not garanteed) then do the math and include compensations algo. and/or add an "NTSC Patterns" option.

As a side but insteresting note, Gamma curves published by WSR perfectly matches ours (using same tools)... ;)

--Patrice & Team

jos-nl

You may want to read this to clear some of your questions http://poynton.com/GammaFAQ.html. There's a pdf file.

[QUOTE=<^..^>Smokey Joe.

If you don't believe me just try it for yourself. Turn any individual balances to zero, infact reset eveything to defaults, then tweak the color and tints and use the RGB and triangle. Take the color to the extremes, note the range, then set to close as possible to the triangles, then tint do the same, see the extremes and adjust to best place for the triangle. You probably will need to readadjust the color along with the tint and as you get close you will be clicking one point with each finding the closest point.

Then now when you do the grey scale you will find it alot closer on the first run.
BTW if you turn on the RGB values in the luminance chart you can see top end contrast clipping. If the track heads to the roof of the chart then veers sharply to the white point you have clipping. If more than one color of the primaries, or especially green you need to drop the global contrast by a few clicks. This is where your eyes do work too, note when you the grey scale around IRE90 then IRE100, if you can hardly tell or not see a actual step of shade more than likley you are clipping.
With LCD and probably lesser DLP setting contrast is hard, but there is clues here, but I tell you get it right and you will see clarity in the shades of white you might not have seen before.

Ive also noted to lesser degree the brightness been able to be tweaked by the grey scale. Setting the brightness to low for example will clip or cut off infomation, it will appear black, but infact is just cut off. Try setting your probes a little closer to the screen so you can pick up more luminance and adjust the brightness. Now this is where that experimental 0~5% scale works quite well. You can see where the infomation or color starts. The more sensitive probes have an advantage here and I think the DIY is one better at 10IRE, where all the others are losing it at 20IRE. It's a side effect of all those filters and so on in front of the sensors.

Just some thoughts that may help.

regards
Smokey[/QUOTE]


SJ-

This is something I was trying to get explained to me one time..thanks so much..

Unfortunately - we will have a problem with this IF there is no color and tint parameters, such as with HDMI - where many projectors lock out this function - as with the Mits 3000U, which is actually pretty good

There is no need for color or tint params, the only one is to have your Gammut as close as possible to the reference triangle... Nowadays, many projectors have facilities to handle this (color management, etc...)

--Patrice

* Error in upper range is due to HCFR patterns being full field. Set was calibrated with window patterns. Hopefully HCFR team releases window patterns at some point.
They are allready there ;)

As for the reference shift, I explained it above...

--Patrice

Is there a good "How To" guide for the software?

I know there is no English manual as of yet, and it looks a bit different from what I am used to. Wondering if anyone has put together a good guide as of yet.

Thanks

First, to analyse Gamma, you must use the logahrytmic scale, as the regular one do not help seeing anything meaningful.

When selecting "Standard" it just move the reference plot (white dots) without any impact on Gamma computing.

BUT, more importantly, what directly impact the maths on Gamma is selecting "Black Compensation" mode or not.

Some software compute Gamma by using the linéar segment in early stage of the gamma curve. This is (almost) equivalent to our black compensation where params are setup depending on chose standart.

The most common error is to use the NTSC IRE scale (black at 7.5 IRE).
A well known software is fooled by this when using AVIA or DVE but not when using it's own patterns.
We bet you are doing something similar...

That could make a big difference and require to compensate by doing some maths, we don't do this.

Can you tell us what patterns you are using ? what are your results using the build in patterns ?

Also, to analyse this, your .chc file with all measure you can make is key to us, would you mind joining it ?

We may (not garanteed) then do the math and include compensations algo. and/or add an "NTSC Patterns" option.

As a side but insteresting note, Gamma curves published by WSR perfectly matches ours (using same tools)... ;)

--Patrice & Team

Hello Laric (and Patrice & Team)

1. Yes I use the logarithmic scale
2. Yes I understood that the gamma setting only moves the reference scale
3. I am using the DVD Image I downloaded from your site.
4. As I live in the Netherlands my setup is PAL.
5. Attached the .chc file of my measurements.

Thanks for the software and hopefully the English Help file will clear things up for me!

Jos

As for the reference shift, I explained it above...

--Patrice
Yes, read that. Unselecting black compensation gives huge errors. Starting @ 0IRE made no difference to 7.5IRE. I just don't understand why the reference plot is lower than what it should be. Does that have anything to do with the PAL system implementation? That's why I posted the charts, so that for the time being we can use the settings and references that would be correct for us. If I'm still missing something, please point it out.

jos-nl

You may want to read this to clear some of your questions http://poynton.com/GammaFAQ.html. There's a pdf file.

Thanks for the link HDholic. I hope this clears some things up for me. :)

Jos

Is there a good "How To" guide for the software?

I know there is no English manual as of yet, and it looks a bit different from what I am used to. Wondering if anyone has put together a good guide as of yet.

Thanks
No real "How to" so far...

First step is to do a "new" measure session, here chose your "generator" ("view image" means patterns are generated by PC, that is the easiest to start with) then you chose your sensor...

At that stage you have the measure screen, I'd suggest you start with an RGB measure, that will give you the projector Gammut (can be displayed in CIE Chat screen)... Then do the 11 IRE level...

You'll then be ready to look at all graphs... and start playing with additional stuff (and/or do and re-do measures).

--> You have a PM ;)

--Patrice

I've done a little work trying to come up with an unambiguous list of parts from Mouser. Basically, I just took each part and tried to come up with an appropriate Mouser part number. I'm not really a hardware guy, so bear with me. :) Here's the list that I came up with. I've included comments and questions in the list.

C1, C3, C4 - 100nF (CMS 1206 or trad. 5.08)
3 x $.09@ Mouser 581-SR215E104MAR Radial Monolithic Capacitors 50V .1uF 20% Lead Free

C7 - 220nF (CMS 1206 or trad. 5.08)
1 x $.26@ Mouser 581-SR205E224MAR Radial Monolithic Capacitors 50V .22uF Z5U 20% Lead Free

C5, C6 - 33pF (CMS 1206 or trad. 5.08)
2 x $.06@ Mouser 140-50N5-330J-RC Ceramic Disc Capacitors 50V 33pF NPO 5% Tol

C2 - 100µF 10v (Chemical Polarized)
1 x $.06@ Mouser 140-XRL10V100-RC Radial Electrolytic Capacitors 10V 100uF 20%

R1 - 3.3K
10 x $.04@ Mouser 291-3.3K-RC 1/4W 5% Carbon Film Resistors 3.3Kohms 0.05

R2 - 150R
10 x $.04@ Mouser 291-150-RC 1/4W 5% Carbon Film Resistors 150ohms 0.05

R3 - 2.2K
10 x $.04@ Mouser 291-2.2K-RC 1/4W 5% Carbon Film Resistors 2.2Kohms 0.05

R4, R5, R6, R7 - 0R (Straps)
Wire. (Maybe cut off resistor leads.)

R8, R9 - 27R
10 x $.04@ Mouser 291-27-RC 1/4W 5% Carbon Film Resistors 27ohms 0.05

D1 - Led Green 3mm or CMS 1206 (rise with dimensions copper)
1 x $.13@ Mouser 604-WP132XPGD LED Standard GREEN DIFFUSED

D2 - Led Infra-red 5mm (gone up crossing)
2 x $.21@ Mouser 782-TSAL6400 Infrared Emitting Diodes 25 Degree 25mW
(There are two that appear to be identical. I picked the first one.)

SW1, SW2 - monostable Switch 5.08 * 7.62 (Microphone switch)
2 x $.26@ Mouser 688-SKHHAJ Tactile Switches 6.0x6.0x4.3mm 100gf
(This is a 6x6mm switch. It doesn't look like the lead spacing is 5.08x7.62,
but I can't find a switch like that. Is this the right one?)

X1 - Quartz 4Mhz
1 x $.36@ Mouser 815-AB-4-B2 HC49 MHz Range Metal Can Crystals +/-20ppm 4MHZ

Q1 - NPN - BC547
1 x $.06@ Mouser 512-BC547BTAR Small Signal Transistors NPN Si Transistor Epitaxial
(There's enough choice here that I'd appreciate some advice if it matters.)

P1 - Standard Base plate Ci USB B (ref. Farnell 152432)
1 x $1.15@ Mouser 806-KUSBX-BS1N-B30 USB Connectors B TYPE RECEPTALCE BLACK 30u GOLD
(There's a cheaper gold flash part. What do I need?)

U1 - PEAK 18F2550 (Microchip) (ref. Farnell 9321250)
1 x $7.83@ Mouser 579-PIC18F2550-I/SP PICmicro - PIC18Fxxx Flash MCU's 32kBF 2048RM FSUSB2

U2, U3 - Sensor TAOS - TCS230 (CMS SO8, ref. Farnell 4891211)
2 x $5.69@ Mouser 856-TCS230D Color Sensor TriColor Sensor LTF

K1 - Connector Mono Jack 3.5 for Ci (ref. Farnell 152206)
1 x $.70@ Mouser 161-3412-EX Phone Jacks PHONE 3.5mm MONO
(I hope I picked the right one.
This one shorts two connections when the plug is pulled.)

1 Support 28 Pins (ref. Farnell 4242403)
1 x $1.22@ Mouser 571-14375363 IC Sockets VERT DIP 16P SOCKET

1 Case ABS, 65*100*20 mm
(I haven't been able to find anything that I like. I might just mount suction cups
on the board and use it bare. Would that be a problem?)

Total for parts is $26.08 so far. Can someone review this list and help me correct anything? The Mouser part numbers are easily searched at the Mouser site. I would post urls, but I can't do that yet. :)

Steve

HDholic, it is a bit late now, I'm tired...

So far, it looks like all is fine except the 1.76 average Gamma that should be around 2.26 ?
I pass this to team, and will answer by tomorrow.

--Patrice

R4, R5, R6, R7 - 0R (Straps)
Wire. (Maybe cut off resistor leads.)Yes positive.

SW1, SW2 - monostable Switch 5.08 * 7.62 (Microphone switch)
2 x $.26@ Mouser 688-SKHHAJ Tactile Switches 6.0x6.0x4.3mm 100gf
(This is a 6x6mm switch. It doesn't look like the lead spacing is 5.08x7.62,
but I can't find a switch like that. Is this the right one?)That should be ok.

Q1 - NPN - BC547
1 x $.06@ Mouser 512-BC547BTAR Small Signal Transistors NPN Si Transistor Epitaxial
(There's enough choice here that I'd appreciate some advice if it matters.)
No problem

P1 - Standard Base plate Ci USB B (ref. Farnell 152432)
1 x $1.15@ Mouser 806-KUSBX-BS1N-B30 USB Connectors B TYPE RECEPTALCE BLACK 30u GOLD
(There's a cheaper gold flash part. What do I need?)Take the cheaper one

K1 - Connector Mono Jack 3.5 for Ci (ref. Farnell 152206)
1 x $.70@ Mouser 161-3412-EX Phone Jacks PHONE 3.5mm MONO
(I hope I picked the right one.
This one shorts two connections when the plug is pulled.)That is fine.

All other stuff is ok.

--Patrice

Originally posted by Laric.
There is no need for color or tint params, the only one is to have your Gammut as close as possible to the reference triangle... Nowadays, many projectors have facilities to handle this (color management, etc...)

Laric, from my readings so far the color and tint parameters are the building blocks to balancing the CIE triangle. My Projector, the AE900 has only global color and tint and thus these have to be adjusted first. From there the brightness and contrast of the primaries only shift these references a small amount.

There is a CCM function, but this does not effect moving balances, only a single color point and is designed for photos. Pretty useless for anything else. Some believe it can tune primaries and secondaries, but this is an ilusion and this software proved it too me.

Have you ever thought about the CIE triangle being in a 3D space so that the primaries color function is shown in the virtical?

Regards
Nigel

They are allready there ;)

--Patrice
Sorry, I meant for DVD patterns. What are the values used for greys and colors in the patterns generator/DVD files, 0-255 or 16-235? Is there a reason why the team hasn't moved from IRE's to the more standard now days % references?

They are also on DVD ! ;) (not yet asleep).

DVD is 16-235, on computer you can chose either 16-235 or 0-255... IRE or % is a naming, that doesn't make differences...

BTW, i'm still pretty intriged by the 2.26 Gamma above, the curve is clearly on top of ref. it should be lower than that...

--Patrice

Nigel, you are perfectly right, idealy you should first try to have your gammut as close to refs as possible...

3D... whay not... :D

--Patrice

Hi HDholic

Thanks for the table. I checked it, and you can use Getgray. We use the same scale (Getgray matches PAL standard, the scale we use on our side of the pond ;) ).

Simply speaking: In ColorHCFR, 0 IRE is black, 100 IRE is white, and IRE levels are regularly spaced along the scale. When using Getgray disk in NTSC, go to Preferences/Reference, select standard NTSC and put a gamma reference "= 2.2". It will match Getgray percents. When using NTSC IRE values (not getgray), you should check gamma reference "from standard" in this dialog. It changes the reference gamma curve, according to NTSC IRE levels.

ColorHCFR is kind enough to let you use either system ;)

Regards
Georges

Im just posting this excerpt from George regarding the 2.2 and FROM STANDARD issue..I think this might clarify it..

FromPage15

I have Getgrey, used those setting but it still wrong. Besides for my LCD comparo I used each programs internal patterns and as you can see, HCFR calculates gamma lower even when measured Y values are almost identical.

I hope to hear from laric or someone from HCFR about it tommorrow as it is 3AM in France :eek: !

Thanks for the remainder though...

have you downloaded the lastest release HCFR pattern?? Not sure what the additions/improvements or anything..but this is the latest
release..

http://www.homecinema-fr.com/colorimetre/DVD/Images_Iso/DVD_V1.1.5.ISO

I did the other day thanks, and like you said, didn't find any differences.

then one of the two is either overstating or understating.

To bad I dont live in RI...but my uncle does..Central Falls..ive never been there..

So, how big is your Mits projecting? That must be a mean machine :eek: ! I'd love to see pics of a projected movie now that's been calibrated. What kind of screen do you use?

So, how big is your Mits projecting? That must be a mean machine :eek: ! I'd love to see pics of a projected movie now that's been calibrated. What kind of screen do you use?

Its a measly 100" screen... ;) ..

I'll take some pix in a minute...I know people crap about screenshots..but I for one..love to see them..Im no camera man...so hopefully I can take some decent shots..

I have a Cinetension Elite HighContrast Grey Electric screen....

Measly?!? I have to settle for a "measly" 51" :( . You can PM you pics, that way no one craps about it :D

well in the PJ world 100" is like a starter kit..

behind the screen when rolled up is a tiny 55" Mits 55807 CRT..which I just calibrated to today.>FLAT greyscale..and 2.5ishgamma..which I prefer for CRT..

Was this comparison of sensors posted yet on avs?
http://www.homecinema-fr.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=170319057

Hi HDHolic

About gamma, after checking your measure file, I must say there is no bug in the software ;) Anyway, visually, I can understand your gamma looks fine in dark scenes. But actually, it's a poor setting. The trouble is not in low IRE levels, but in high IRE levels. You have a huge clipping at 100 IRE, and even 90 IRE is clipped. Your contrast setting is too high.

There are at least three different ways to compute average gamma, and all can be discussed. We compute it by averaging values on the log gamma curve, with equal ponderation on all "gamma-able" levels (ie: all levels except 0 and 100). And every IRE level gamma is computed relatively to IRE 0 and IRE 100, the extrêmes. So, gamma values are coherent only when IRE levels 0 and 100 are correctly set. Without good references, even if the math formula is right, you cannot have any valueable result.

To see it concretely: check the "editable data" check box, and in XYZ units, change Y for IRE 100 from 84.573 to 101.5. Then, you will see a 2.22 gamma value. Clearly, your white is clipped, you must first solve this problem before setting gamma on your projector.

Well, I think you have the last beta: you can use special test pattern in the new Advanced menu to help you set your white level. Or use the near white grayscale measures. ;)

About your wishlist: most of them will wait after next 1.2 release... Anyway, one is already available, since the very beginning:
* Customizable RGB Levels line thickness(thinner) for easier visualization of level errors
You can open context menu with right mouse click and use graph settings to change colors, pen style and thickness of every curve, on any graphic. All those settings are saved in your .ini file.

* Primary, Secondary colors continuous measures with reference values displayed for easy/fast calibration of color points
Well, that one may be included too, it's quite simple. I will check that ;)

For your other wishes, it's general ergonomic improvement, not a few lines of code which can be included fastly in the latest hours before delivery ;)

Regards
Georges

Hi, richlo

Im just posting this excerpt from George regarding the 2.2 and FROM STANDARD issue..I think this might clarify it..

FromPage15

Well, I must confess I made a big mistake. All what I wrote is wrong. Our specialist confirmed to me the "from standard" gamma option has no relation with NTSC IRE levels. I misunderstood this part of math, sorry (anyway, I'm not very skilful with NTSC, excuse my PAL/French ;) ).

If I can, I will edit this message to remove those bad advices...

Regards
Georges

Hi guys,
I played a bit last night with HCFR software (latest beta) and was planning on making some comparisons to CalMAN using my dtp-94 on my tosh 50hx81 (rp crt). I have a set of data from July that I think should be good (grayscale flat, dE less than 2 except at 0 and 10% stim). during July I made several passes, on several days up to a week apart, using CalMAN, toolcrib (x-rite test app) and a stand-alone dtp-94 app based on the the one distributed with the SDK. Results were very consistent over that extended time period.

I started with HCFR and immediately noticed a potential issue. My red was about 10% higher than it had been in July. grayscale tracking was flat, like it had been in July, but it was almost 10% too low (shifted red) in color temp.

I switched to CalMAN and got the same thing, using V2.01 and V2.1 (the latest).

I didn't get a chance to try Toolcrib. I also plan tonight to measure my lcd computer monitor tonight. It has a built-in D65k profile that I've measured before and the dtp-94 has been right on.

I do note that the ambient temp is more than 5 deg F lower in that room this time of year compared to July - probably closer to 7deg. I also note that the HCFR guys have implemented the MT command. The meter was reading about 21.something deg C. My set was fully warmed up as it had been on for over 2.5 hours at the end of the run. The meter had been powered on for 1.5 hours.

I did calibrate the meter in the meter selection dialog box. When I had used meter with toolcrib, I note you have to be *very* careful to follow these steps, in sequence, before you can believe the measurement. 1) establish the USB connection (verify by getting serial number, firmware revision, etc.), 2) reset the meter (soft reboot so that you have the meter in a predictable initial state), 3) calibrate amp. offsets. 4) then take readings.

I see a grayed out option for loading a profile with the dtp-94. Can you verify that some odd profile is not being selected? (IMO, for this application, we only want to use the factory calibration profile (profile 0 as per the RCI manual).

Can you verify you follow the above steps?

You don't use any of the "dangerous" features from the manual regarding time constants and temperature offset?

In CalMAN, I tried several compensation options to see if maybe there was an issue with there. The different choices changed the numbers slightly, in a systematic way. Not enough to account for 10% upward shift in red.

I am also concerned that my meter's gone bad. I will post tonight with my results from toolcrib and standard D65k LCD. I will also make sure I RI the meter (this should put it back to factory default).

Sorry for the long post.
Best,
jeff

Hi Jeff

If you want to check exactly what ColorHCFR does with your DTP-94, you can check the "debug" box in DTP parameters. Then, all commands sent to the probe, and of course the answers received, are all stored in the decoder.log file. You will find this file in your ColorHCFR installation directory. It's a simple text file you can open with any editor.

You will see we do not use "dangerous" commands ;)

Regards
Georges

Georges,
Will do. My plan will be to do a set of measurements on the standard LCD display with the D65k profile. I measured it before and it was very close to D65k. I will post my results probably 12 hours from now ;-)

Best,
jeff

Here's another cut at a parts list for the HCFR sensor. I've tweaked a few things. I've used a cheaper USB connector. I found what I think is a mistake in the Mouser catalog with the chip socket, so I picked another one. Machine pin sockets are relatively expensive, though. I added a four meter USB cable and a ten foot mono audio cable. I already had the IR led for the audio cable in the list. This should allow building the complete sensor including the ability to control a dvd out of sight of the sensor. I still haven't found a case for the sensor that is similar to the one used in France, but I'll keep looking. My goal for this is not just to get a list for my personal order. I'd like to come up with a reference list so anyone in the U.S. can easily order the parts and make a working sensor. So, I'd appreciate anyone more hardware knowledgeable than me to review this list in detail and provide feedback. Once this list gets settled, I want to order the parts and build one of these things and see how it goes. The current cost for the parts on the list now stands at $33.94, including the cables.

C1, C3, C4 - 100nF (CMS 1206 or trad. 5.08)
3 x $.09@ Mouser 581-SR215E104MAR Radial Monolithic Capacitors 50V .1uF 20% Lead Free

C7 - 220nF (CMS 1206 or trad. 5.08)
1 x $.26@ Mouser 581-SR205E224MAR Radial Monolithic Capacitors 50V .22uF Z5U 20% Lead Free

C5, C6 - 33pF (CMS 1206 or trad. 5.08)
2 x $.06@ Mouser 140-50N5-330J-RC Ceramic Disc Capacitors 50V 33pF NPO 5% Tol

C2 - 100µF 10v (Chemical Polarized)
1 x $.06@ Mouser 140-XRL10V100-RC Radial Electrolytic Capacitors 10V 100uF 20%

R1 - 3.3K
10 x $.04@ Mouser 291-3.3K-RC 1/4W 5% Carbon Film Resistors 3.3Kohms 0.05

R2 - 150R
10 x $.04@ Mouser 291-150-RC 1/4W 5% Carbon Film Resistors 150ohms 0.05

R3 - 2.2K
10 x $.04@ Mouser 291-2.2K-RC 1/4W 5% Carbon Film Resistors 2.2Kohms 0.05

R4, R5, R6, R7 - 0R (Straps)
Cut off resistor leads.

R8, R9 - 27R
10 x $.04@ Mouser 291-27-RC 1/4W 5% Carbon Film Resistors 27ohms 0.05

D1 - Led Green 3mm or CMS 1206 (rise with dimensions copper)
1 x $.13@ Mouser 604-WP132XPGD LED Standard GREEN DIFFUSED

D2 - Led Infra-red 5mm (gone up crossing)
2 x $.21@ Mouser 782-TSAL6400 Infrared Emitting Diodes 25 Degree 25mW

SW1, SW2 - monostable Switch 5.08 * 7.62 (Microphone switch)
2 x $.26@ Mouser 688-SKHHAJ Tactile Switches 6.0x6.0x4.3mm 100gf

X1 - Quartz 4Mhz
1 x $.36@ Mouser 815-AB-4-B2 HC49 MHz Range Metal Can Crystals +/-20ppm 4MHZ

Q1 - NPN - BC547
1 x $.06@ Mouser 512-BC547BTAR Small Signal Transistors NPN Si Transistor Epitaxial

P1 - Standard Base plate Ci USB B (ref. Farnell 152432)
1 x $.71@ Mouser 806-KUSBX-BS1N-B USB Connectors B TYPE RECEPTALCE BLACK

U1 - PIC 18F2550 (Microchip) (ref. Farnell 9321250)
1 x $7.83@ Mouser 579-PIC18F2550-I/SP PICmicro - PIC18Fxxx Flash MCU's 32kBF 2048RM FSUSB2

U2, U3 - Sensor TAOS - TCS230 (CMS SO8, ref. Farnell 4891211)
2 x $5.69@ Mouser 856-TCS230D Color Sensor TriColor Sensor LTF

K1 - Connector Mono Jack 3.5 for Ci (ref. Farnell 152206)
1 x $.70@ Mouser 161-3412-EX Phone Jacks PHONE 3.5mm MONO

1 Support 28 Pins (ref. Farnell 4242403)
1 x $1.22@ Mouser 649-DIP-328-001B DIP Sockets 28C OPEN FRAME

1 Case ABS, 65*100*20 mm
(I haven't been able to find anything that I like.)

1 USB cable A-B 4 Meter
1 x $5.52@ Mouser 571-1487598-1 USB Cable Assemblies USB, A-B, 25/20 BLACK 4 M

1 Mono audio cable 120 inches
1 x $2.78@ Mouser 172-1281 Audio Cords 3.5 MONO PL-S/T 120

Looks fine to me...

4m USB may be a bit short, you can find 5 or 6m for less than $3 (at least here in Europe).

--Patrice

My purpose for this comparison was to show the differences in accuracy. I further tested another free spreadsheet available in these forums, and it gave me results similar to Calman's gamma curve. Since CalMan creators worked with Colorvision and have the SDK for the probe, I feel theirs is accurate.

With that being said, I still love the features that HCFR provides and will continue to use those. For gamma calibration, I feel it should get users in the ballpark but not 100% accurate. Maybe an extra option in references for a "Corrected Gamma" calculation can be implemented :) .

Keep up the good work HCFR!
Well, if you could give me a link where I could find a spreadsheet with a gamma calculation you consider correct, I would be curious to look at it to see the formula used... ;)

Regards
Georges

HDholic,
Are you refering to rader's spreadsheet? If so, when I compared it's gamma to CalMAN, the rader result was low compared to CalMAN. e.g. rader would show 2.0, CalMAN would show 2.5.

I don't trust the math on gamma for rader's sheet. In that thread, another poster critiques the rader sheet. it has many issues including inconsistent usage of transformations. here's the link: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9002296#post9002296
(last page...)

Maybe you have the version of rader's sheet that I hacked on ;-) I withdrew it (deleted it) from the thread...

Read the post on the last page. I agree with his statements that the gamma calc. is flawed.

Best,
jeff

BTW, a few pages ago I posted this link http://poynton.com/GammaFAQ.html. Maybe that can help some.

Thanks Patrice. I substituted this.

1 USB cable A-B 15 feet
1 x $5.48@ Mouser 601-30-3007-15 USB Cables and Connectors USB A - B CABLE 15 FT VER 2.0

15 feet seems to be the longest USB cable normally sold here. A quick search on the net didn't yield much under five dollars. I did find some cable ends that could be used to build a cable. Do you have any idea if Cat5E patch cable could be used to build a good USB cable? I happen to have a lot of that. :)

Steve

Poynton's reference, IMO, is confusing because he's folding in notions of the transfer function. I dug up the discussion/links I made awhile ago (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=587485&page=6&pp=30 and post #170 in particular which summarizes what I'd).

I view (maybe wrongly) that calculating gamma is independent of Rec 601/709/transfer functions, etc. It's a data analysis issue. You take some measurements and you want to see how Y is behaving. My post and the reference I link above it is based on that. You'll see some like it and others don't. I like what CalMAN does, for the record.

Best,
jeff

I like what CalMAN does, for the record.
Hence why I use it for Gamma calibration :D .

right click the pattern for more info..
Thanks Rich for that tip!!! Guess a manual would be nice in english:

Hi bean-66

It's already available, on option. Right click on luma chart, and check the options you need.

Regards
Georges

Georges, Thanks for a great piece of software. Its just a learning curve thing for me right now!!!

Hey Bean -

dont sweat the learning curve, most of us are still in the infancy stage when calibrating, but it is great that we got a free software that kicks a&s...it may not be perfect just yet, but its getting there and the more and more we use it - the more you'll understand how things work...

thanks for some great insights from the guys who just know more than us..and are willing to help out

btw..there will probably be no step by step manual for this but more of a help function that will explain the functions within

Thanks Rich for that tip!!! Guess a manual would be nice in english:

Soon :cool:

Soon :cool:


I dont mind being wrong... :D

Re: All Colorvision hardware the same: Does this really apply for those looking to calibrate front projectors, specifically lcd. the marketing of colorvision implies that spyderii Pro is required for this. I'm of the assumption that it's merely the software that is different and that this great project will deal with this..so I guess in summary...spyderII express + this hcfr project all that is needed (other that time and patience) to calibrate a FP?

Cheers

Pod is identical its the software that makes the difference in price...so Spyder2express is the way to go with HCFR..thats all you need..

Measly?!? I have to settle for a "measly" 51" :( . You can PM you pics, that way no one craps about it :D

My camera stinks...I tried taking some and my pictures look blurry (yes, I paused it ;) )

Hi every body

Let's talk about gamma ;) In ColorHCFR, we use a standard formula to compute gamma on each IRE point, except 0 and 100 IRE (there is no gamma value for reference points).

For each IRE value except 0 and 100, we compute gamma with this formula:

Gamma_X = log(Y_IRE_X/Y_IRE_100) / log(IRE_X/100)

Y_IRE_X is the luminance at IRE X (the Y value in XYZ or xyY units)
Y_IRE_100 is the luminance of full white - IRE 100 (same unit)
IRE_X is the IRE value (a value between 1 and 99, usually 10, 20, 30...)
log is the natural logarythm (it can be log10, the log base has no importance here)

For global gamma, we just compute average of all gamma values (when using standard 11 levels from 0 to 100 IRE by 10 IRE steps, it's the sum of the 9 gamma values computed for IRE 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80 and 90 divided by 9).

The gamma with black compensation is the same formula, but the black luminance is substracted for both IRE X and IRE 100 luminance. Here is the complete formula:

Gamma_with_black_compensation_X = log( (Y_IRE_X-Y_IRE_0) / (Y_IRE_100-Y_IRE_0) ) / log(IRE_X/100)

Y_IRE_0 is the luminance at IRE 0

As you can see, it's the direct gamma average formula. No ponderation, no curve analysis, no transfer function in dark levels. The truth, and only truth ;)

Regards
Georges

Hi everybody!. This is my first post .

Before nothing, saying the soft from HCFR is incredible .. a marvellous work





For global gamma, we just compute average of all gamma values (when using standard 11 levels from 0 to 100 IRE by 10 IRE steps, it's the sum of the 9 gamma values computed for IRE 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80 and 90 divided by 9).


Regards
Georges

I think that way of calculate is not very effective. I think there is more effective the Method of the Square Minimums. (Linear correlation)


Regards

PD: I know there is a French, English, German HCFR version...when a version...in Spanish :D

Hello great software. I have a 60 inch plasma that I am trying to calibrate and for some reason no matter how hard I try from 0 to 30 ire is way off. I am wondering what should I use under the reference preference settings gamma, ntsc etc. I use getgray ntsc dvd to calibrate and spyder II. Any help would be great.

I have it installed and when I go to take a measurement I get a dll error. It says the sypder.dll is not found. What gives. I don't have to install the spyder software too do I?

Put the dll inside HCFR program folder where the .exe is located.

Put the dll inside HCFR program folder where the .exe is located.

Thanks

Hello great software. I have a 60 inch plasma that I am trying to calibrate and for some reason no matter how hard I try from 0 to 30 ire is way off. I am wondering what should I use under the reference preference settings gamma, ntsc etc. I use getgray ntsc dvd to calibrate and spyder II. Any help would be great.

put a zip file of your results...not much to go by without seeing your results

put a zip file of your results...not much to go by without seeing your results

here is a copy of my zip file any help would be great.

Well, I'm gettin' closer to taming the gamma on my H79. Still need to compare
the gamma curves with my other calib. program. :D

jayzfelon-

Most reference setting are ok. Check "Extend read time on dark measurements", found under Sensor>Configure or click the notepad icon next to Spyder2. If you haven't read a few posts back, use LCD mode with filter on. For gamma, at this point select standard. That'll give you a reference curve that matches C@lM@n's 2.2 curve.

Steps to take
a) Set brightness/contrast
b) Read primary/secondary colors. Adjust color points if needed
c) Take grayscale reading
d) Adjust gamma calibration. At this point you have huge clipping from 30IRE and up. Do this first as it impacts grayscale.
e) Perform grayscale calibration
f) Set color/tint
g) Re-check a and d.

If anyone wants to add to this post, feel free.

Have fun :D !

Well, I'm gettin' closer to taming the gamma on my H79. Still need to compare
the gamma curves with my other calib. program. :D
What's the other calib. program, if you don't mind ;) ?

What's the other calib. program, if you don't mind ;) ?

Calman.. Not quite sure what to do about my secondary colors. :confused:
I don't think access to pri/sec is available with my projector (H79).

I wonder if you're running into a limitation on the DTP-94 with the projector's eight-segment color wheel. I'm sure if you ask on C@lM@n's forum, they could tell you. They strongly suggest an EyeOne Pro for those types of DLPs.

I'd suggest reading reviews since alot of times they go thru the menus, that way you'll know what you can work with. Here's a quote about your projector "Finally, color can be fine-tuned via individual red, green, and blue contrast and brightness settings (gain and offset)." projectorcentral.com

sorry I know this is a dumb question but how do u adjust gamma?

PD: I know there is a French, English, German HCFR version...when a version...in Spanish :D

As soon has we find somebody to translate :p
Are you a volunteer ? :D

jayzfelon-

Most reference setting are ok. Check "Extend read time on dark measurements", found under Sensor>Configure or click the notepad icon next to Spyder2. If you haven't read a few posts back, use LCD mode with filter on. For gamma, at this point select standard. That'll give you a reference curve that matches C@lM@n's 2.2 curve.

Steps to take
a) Set brightness/contrast
b) Read primary/secondary colors. Adjust color points if needed
c) Take grayscale reading
d) Adjust gamma calibration. At this point you have huge clipping from 30IRE and up. Do this first as it impacts grayscale.
e) Perform grayscale calibration
f) Set color/tint
g) Re-check a and d.

If anyone wants to add to this post, feel free.

Have fun :D !


When u say adjust gamma calibration, what do you mean?

So today, after reading this whole thread I decided to test out HCFR using a Spyder2 on a Plasma. My patterns are from the GetGray disc. After getting multiple Generator errors and figuring out that I needed to set the Generator to DVD Manual. I was then able to read from the S2.

HDholic, I think the steps you wrote are great, but I think we need to work on a step by step on how to do each step using this program.

Before pulling out this program... I tried to calibrate brightness/contrast and color/tint using both Avia and Getgray. Watching a movie afterwards I new something just wasn't right. I could never get the contrast to stop showing WTW. And this isn't the first time I've had this problem with a plasma. Besides color looking aweful (maybe my blue filter sucks), this was the main reason for me to pull out this program to see what was going on.

I'm wondering if you can set Brightness/contrast and color/tint using the sensor and HCFR or can it only be used to set Grayscale/gamma? Being a newb to this program I just don't know what it can do. One more thing.... putting zips on here? Do you just Save the file in HCFR and then post it on here?

...
I did a quick check of the HCFR software with my Spyder2, CRT displays, baffle ON, and the results match the reads from other calibration software.
Dan

Hello, can you tell me on witch mode you were, CRT or LCD ?
I read all the thread but i have always no response to my question:
On a TT, with the HCFR soft , filter or not ? LCD or CRT mode ?

Thanks a lot.

Patrick

jayzfelon-
b) Read primary/secondary colors. Adjust color points if needed


What do you mean with?
Adjusting the end-"points" in the HCFR-CIE-Diagram or adjusting colors on the device?

Patrick

Just stick with LCD Mode with the baffle on..PERIOD..there are several mentions of this (even myself) thru the thread..even Post 659 above mentions it..

What do you mean with?
Adjusting the end-"points" in the HCFR-CIE-Diagram or adjusting colors on the device?


see post 626 a couple of pages back

Before pulling out this program... I tried to calibrate brightness/contrast and color/tint using both Avia and Getgray. Watching a movie afterwards I new something just wasn't right. I could never get the contrast to stop showing WTW. And this isn't the first time I've had this problem with a plasma. Besides color looking aweful (maybe my blue filter sucks), this was the main reason for me to pull out this program to see what was going on.

I have the same issue setting contrast with Getgray on an Hitachi Ultravision RPTV. Could this be because my gray scale is way off?

I have the same issue setting contrast with Getgray. Could this be because my gray scale is way off?

Yes. It's not always possible to prevent WTW from showing and in fact it may not even be desirable.

It's not always obvious from the greyscale but you may have "run out" or crushed one of the primary colours. The colour bar steps on GetGray will show this very quickly if it's badly crushed and a tool like this or Calman can measure it as well.

Yes...

BTW, why not using the build in patterns ("View Image" generator) ?

Obviously a calibration should includ all of the video chain, but you can do that later one, using build in stuff is way way easier and quicker, it will help you to easily see what the TV/Projector/Screen settings are doing...

Most of the time, we use the very PC running software to do most of the job, and only run a couple of final tests (and ajustments if needed) using the DVD (or getGray...). It is way easier.

--Patrice

As you point out, it's a chain/reference problem.

In any calibration procedure you need to decide on your golden reference and then adjust to that.

For the vast majority of cases the best thing to do is use your DVD player, with all adjustments set to neutral, and then adjust the display accordingly.

If somebody wants to use a PC with the built-in HCFR generator as their reference that is their choice, it just means that when they go to calibrate a DVD input they will need to repeat the calibration steps using a DVD source. This is an extra step IMHO.

Of course, but it is way easier/faster to learn your settings impact, and calibrate all using the PC as generator... and sure, in the end, you'll have a additional step on finalising setup using your DVD... I can also add it is likely there will be only minor adjustements, especially if using same input (VGA/YUV analog or HDMI/DVI)

But trust me it'll save hours and hours... with the exact same result in the end.

Only my 2 cts... ;)

--Patrice

What type of I/F card would be best for the PC if using the internal patterns? I do not have hdmi inputs only component.

Thanks
Rick

The "best" is to use the same input you'll then use with your player...

Nowadays, it is often DVI/HDMI... But VGA/YUV are also pretty common... I use any of them (my graphic card can output all three) and this also on reason our generator can use either overlay or VMR and can either output video range (16-235) or PC ones (0-255)... That allow to cover all situations and to minimize end tuning with real DVD player.

Obviously there could be exceptions, some projectors have way different behaviour depending their input, sometimes different settings, sometime different color scheme (I have in mind Z4 that wrongly apply Rec709 on HDMI input whereas it is correct on YUV one :D)...

--Patrice

Hey guys, a couple of questions if you please. I took some measurements and all I ended up with was straight lines on the graphs. The only one that looked like anything was the gama curve. It was a 2.03 average. I am not sure what I did wrong. I am using the spyder2 meter and the get grey DVD and I have the panny AE900u with a Carada 106in screen.

What do I need to set the read time too for the spyder meter?
What mode does it need to be in? LCD, Proj, crt. Proj. I assume.
Does the meter need to face the screen or the projector with this software?
Which readings do I need to take to correctly populate the graphs? RGB levesl, grey scale, etc.?

Thanks guys.

The basics is to do RGB levels (so you can see your gammut on CIE Chart) and then Grey Scale measures (11) so you can populate all stuff...

--Patrice

The basics is to do RGB levels (so you can see your gammut on CIE Chart) and then Grey Scale measures (11) so you can populate all stuff...

--Patrice

OK thanks, I will try it again, how about the other stuff I asked about, any thoughts or answers on those things?

Should you adjust the RGB levels (if required) before playing with grey scale?

Thanks
Rick

I find that the quickest method is to work in this rough order.

1. Brightness/contrast(note this is a basic start point, you may need to adjust these again later)

2. RGB primaries, view the CIE chart, your color and Tint functions effect the position of the RGB points, the idea is to place the RGB points upon the reference points. Start with color, I suggest moving the adjustment to the extremes to see what is does then dial it to a point where it falls closely to the reference line and points, then adjsut the tint function, again go to the extremes to see the adjustment range and dail it in as close as possible to the reference points. You may need to adjust or fine tune color and tint together.

3. Do the grey scale 00IRE~100IRE

Now you are adjusting the RGB brightness and contrast as individuals to match them as flat as possible.

This is where you start looking at the CIE, gamma, RGB history, as a total because you have to balance with all the references in mind.

I find this approach working for me as I am learning.

Any experts opinion :confused: ?

I con't comment on the calculations except that it appears HCFR calculates gamma with the simple power function when you select your own gamma reference point (other than STD.)

It should be noted to all that the term IRE does NOT mean percent stimulation (input level).
IRE is an old term for "analog voltage level" for NTSC video !!
HCFR should not use this term unless it is really equated with input level % (0-100).
As far as I know "Get grey" is the DVD test disc that acurately maps digital RGB levels and percent stimulus (5 or 10% steps from 0 to 100).

My $.02

Todd

I find that the quickest method is to work in this rough order.

1. Brightness/contrast(note this is a basic start point, you may need to adjust these again later)

2. RGB primaries, view the CIE chart, your color and Tint functions effect the position of the RGB points, the idea is to place the RGB points upon the reference points. Start with color, I suggest moving the adjustment to the extremes to see what is does then dial it to a point where it falls closely to the reference line and points, then adjsut the tint function, again go to the extremes to see the adjustment range and dail it in as close as possible to the reference points. You may need to adjust or fine tune color and tint together.

3. Do the grey scale 00IRE~100IRE

Now you are adjusting the RGB brightness and contrast as individuals to match them as flat as possible.

This is where you start looking at the CIE, gamma, RGB history, as a total because you have to balance with all the references in mind.

I find this approach working for me as I am learning.

Very Good Process - I went back and redid my COLOR (only available) through my Oppo971, I went from 0 (default) to a -3, and I almost have a PERFECT triangle with all colors touching the points with the exception of Yellow which is on the line also but a little over towards Green (very minor)

After that, I redid my greyscale is pretty flat ranging from at the lowest 6360 to 6537 the highest (10 - 90IRE), and my Delta E ranges from 10IRE -90IR are anwhere for 0-3, only do I have too much blue in100ire but that is the nature of the beast in this case..Recheck my brigh/contrast several times and check color with stayed in place..

Hey guys, a couple of questions if you please. I took some measurements and all I ended up with was straight lines on the graphs. The only one that looked like anything was the gama curve. It was a 2.03 average. I am not sure what I did wrong. I am using the spyder2 meter and the get grey DVD and I have the panny AE900u with a Carada 106in screen.

What do I need to set the read time too for the spyder meter?

What mode does it need to be in? LCD, Proj, crt. Proj. I assume.
Does the meter need to face the screen or the projector with this software?
Which readings do I need to take to correctly populate the graphs? RGB levesl, grey scale, etc.?




Thanks guys.

Set to read in LCD Mode
Meter facing the screen..I do it close enough and angle it up away from the shadow of the probe - pointing dead center.

Set your brightness and contrast
-Under Pref tab,under Ref, select 0-255, Select NTSC (unless your in a PAL region or doing HDTV), Select FROM STANDARD

Run the Primary and Secondaries, which is below the greyscale..Get you Primary as close as possible to standard points, to achieve this, use COLOR in the user menu and then adjust until you get all points as close to the CIE Diagram triangle (make sure to click the icon to view). Set Tint in the same manner..Best way is to turn DOWN (for me it works this way) and then bring it up until you get it. You will do a couple of passes on this to fine tune it.

Then go back to under Pref tab, Ref and select 16-235 (if your using an HTPC then it will be 0-255)

Run your greyscale 0IRE -100IRE - until you can achieve as close as poosible x=.313 y=.329 (dont expect perfection but get close as possible)select xyz MODE in Display box

Adjust your cuts (lowIRE) and Drive (highIRE) its a balance attack, what you do on e side impacts the other side (sometime minimal and sometimes alot)

Rerun your greyscale until you get where you are very close

Recheck Contrast and Brightness (very important)

Continue with fine tuning greyscale

One of the most important thing is not so much just the 6500K greyscale (there so many ways to get that) but your DELTA E which is the 313 and 329..You want as many of your IRE hitting that target..You may have trouble in the very low IRE (0-20IRE), but compromise - but dont sacrifice a good highend for a low, try to balance them as much as possible

The Delta E, should be 0-3 for each IRE..the way you figure this out is two ways, you HIGHLIGHT an IRE and click on Display Measurement Information icon and at the top you will see that number, or you can go to your CIE diagram and look at all the WHITE circle and take your mouse to it and it will tell you what that particular IRE that you placed your mouse over.

ALso using the Display Measurement Information will let you know how much RED, GREEN, BLUE...the trick is to get those bars at 100% (close to) - when adjusting cuts/drives (sometimes called Brightness/contrast for RGB)

When you get those going..

return to Pref tab, Ref 0-255

Rerun your Prim and secondaries, and adj (if necessary)

One more run of your greyscale wont hurt but dont expect much of a change - just make sure to change it back to 16-235 in the Pref/Ref tab

for the Spyder make sure to increase your read time from its default..

Well I figured out what I was doing wrong in measuring Pri/Sec. I am using a DVDO VP30 scaler and was choosing the ColorBars100 instead of the
ColorBars75 test pattern. I read on another forum, using a the ColorBars100
pattern can be problematic.

I did a couple of runs in both HCFR and Calman and the result between the
two is pretty much identical.

Well I figured out what I was doing wrong in measuring Pri/Sec. I am using a DVDO VP30 scaler and was choosing the ColorBars100 instead of the
ColorBars75 test pattern. I read on another forum, using a the ColorBars100
pattern can be problematic.

I did a couple of runs in both HCFR and Calman and the result between the
two is pretty much identical.

You are correct - they are measured on 75%,

You are correct - they are measured on 75%,

Is the diff between 75% and 100% just the displayed size?

Thanks
Rick

no - I believe its the contrast of it or saturation..Sorry I am not wordy..definitely not the size

It is the Y value. x and y coordinates are fixed.

I use Getgray, so for a RPTV would I use 75 or 100% ?

Set to read in LCD Mode
Meter facing the screen..I do it close enough and angle it up away from the shadow of the probe - pointing dead center.

Set your brightness and contrast
-Under Pref tab,under Ref, select 0-255, Select NTSC (unless your in a PAL region or doing HDTV), Select FROM STANDARD

Run the Primary and Secondaries, which is below the greyscale..Get you Primary as close as possible to standard points, to achieve this, use COLOR in the user menu and then adjust until you get all points as close to the CIE Diagram triangle (make sure to click the icon to view). Set Tint in the same manner..Best way is to turn DOWN (for me it works this way) and then bring it up until you get it. You will do a couple of passes on this to fine tune it.

Then go back to under Pref tab, Ref and select 16-235 (if your using an HTPC then it will be 0-255)

Run your greyscale 0IRE -100IRE - until you can achieve as close as poosible x=.313 y=.329 (dont expect perfection but get close as possible)select xyz MODE in Display box

Adjust your cuts (lowIRE) and Drive (highIRE) its a balance attack, what you do on e side impacts the other side (sometime minimal and sometimes alot)

Rerun your greyscale until you get where you are very close

Recheck Contrast and Brightness (very important)

Continue with fine tuning greyscale

One of the most important thing is not so much just the 6500K greyscale (there so many ways to get that) but your DELTA E which is the 313 and 329..You want as many of your IRE hitting that target..You may have trouble in the very low IRE (0-20IRE), but compromise - but dont sacrifice a good highend for a low, try to balance them as much as possible

The Delta E, should be 0-3 for each IRE..the way you figure this out is two ways, you HIGHLIGHT an IRE and click on Display Measurement Information icon and at the top you will see that number, or you can go to your CIE diagram and look at all the WHITE circle and take your mouse to it and it will tell you what that particular IRE that you placed your mouse over.

ALso using the Display Measurement Information will let you know how much RED, GREEN, BLUE...the trick is to get those bars at 100% (close to) - when adjusting cuts/drives (sometimes called Brightness/contrast for RGB)

When you get those going..

return to Pref tab, Ref 0-255

Rerun your Prim and secondaries, and adj (if necessary)

One more run of your greyscale wont hurt but dont expect much of a change - just make sure to change it back to 16-235 in the Pref/Ref tab

for the Spyder make sure to increase your read time from its default..

Richlo, Thanks, Couple more if you don't mind.

Why do I need to change back and forth from 16-235 to 0-255 when checking the colors?

If my Denon DVD 1920 is upconverting to 720p which color space should I use?

Any idea what I should increase the read time to for the spyder?

Make sure for upconverting that you select RGB output on your dvd player for output. NTSC is still your colorspace

YES, increase the read time for sure...

Just to that you aware, run a prim/sec under 0-255, then run it for 16-235 and you probably understand immediately why choose 0-255.

Make sure for upconverting that you select RGB output on your dvd player for output. NTSC is still your colorspace

YES, increase the read time for sure...

Just to that you aware, run a prim/sec under 0-255, then run it for 16-235 and you probably understand immediately why choose 0-255.

Thanks, you da man :D I will post back later with my results.

i am a bit confused on how to use HFCR... what sort of hardware is needed?
i would like to calibrate the plasma TV. The TV has HDMI inputs. My computer
(on which HFCR will run) doesnot have DVI or HDMI or any of those outputs.

can someone give me a rundown on what is involved in using this SW?
thanks
caymann

Hi Cayman -

Without getting into too much detail. The 1st thing you probably need to learn is what is a calibration, read up what greyscale are and how they impact what you see.

For a quick rundown -

1 - you need a probe that measure light output (many of them but most popular here for entry level is the spyder2 and the Monaco DTP-94 aka Optix-xr)
2 - the probe is connected through your laptop/computer
3- you calibate your basic settings 1st (contrast/brightness/color/tint/sharpness)
4 - then you run HCFR software to read your measurements using the probe facing your tv set
- Read your greyscale (black - grey - white) at level 0IRE,10IRE, 20IRE, etc up to 100IRE
a greyscale from those should read back x=.313 y =.329 - but they wont and that is when the software strengths are
5 - you will adjust your available RGB levels so that you can get as close as possible to have all IRE to hit .312 and .329
The importance of a greyscale is that when your picture (lack of a better word) is painted on to the screen the colors are placed on a neutral color. Think of a painter - you will never see them take a BLUE canvass to paint, they will get a white/neutral color to paint on. Thus, a greyscale is your canvass

The program is design to let you get an idea where you need to adjust and through your tvset, with the available parameters that may be visible or hidden in the service menu, you make adjustments to hit the marks ref above.

Its not the type of thing a complete novice should jump into..if you look at some recent post, people have gone into their sets and have hose their sets..

Always - ALWAYS - write your original settings before making any changes...do not risk not doing so..if you are not sure if you should change a setting - DONT...its not worth ever the risk..



This is just a run down - there is more to this than the stated, but once you get more and more into understanding..it will all fall in its place

Make sure for upconverting that you select RGB output on your dvd player for output. NTSC is still your colorspace


What if you have an Oppo upconverting DVD player and your HD tuner both connected to the same DVI IN using a switch? Since I don't have my computer hooked up to the projector and I'm running the patterns through the DVD player.... I should probably calibrate for NTSC. But what about for the HD tuner?

First of all, enormous thanks to the HCFR team and those who have posted advice/info on this thread. I have been reading it carefully for weeks, and I have now taken the plunge, got my DTP-94, and have attempted to use the software for the first time today.

I first used the Optix XR software to calibrate my CRT monitor. That worked perfectly. I have now set up HCFR for DTP-94 as sensor and HCFR generator, reference 0-255, NTSC, and gamma "from standard", as richlo suggested. My problem is that when I try to read primaries by clicking on camera icon, I get an error message: "error during generator initialization".

I also am wondering what procedure to follow as far as calibrating the DTP-94. I calibrated it with the Optix software. Should I calibrate it with HCFR, copy the calibration file from Optix folder, or use default in HDFR? Do you calibrate the DTP-94 each time you use it, or only the first time? I have already done the "calibrate internal sensor offsets" and "internal device temp" readings in HCFR sensor menu and copied down the results.

I would appreciate any advice you can provide.

Jack

My problem is that when I try to read primaries by clicking on camera icon, I get an error message: "error during generator initialization".


You have to select following generator :
'View images' if you want you pc to display patterns
'DVD Manual' if you want to use a pattern DVD

'HCFR Generator' can no be used without HCFR probe.

What if you have an Oppo upconverting DVD player and your HD tuner both connected to the same DVI IN using a switch? Since I don't have my computer hooked up to the projector and I'm running the patterns through the DVD player.... I should probably calibrate for NTSC. But what about for the HD tuner?
I also have an OPPO and I set my reference to HDTV. NTSC is off on the CIE Diagram in my case. Try both and calibrate to the most accurate one.

You have to select following generator :
'View images' if you want you pc to display patterns
'DVD Manual' if you want to use a pattern DVD

'HCFR Generator' can no be used without HCFR probe.

Thanks Ki!

Jack

I also have an OPPO and I set my reference to HDTV. NTSC is off on the CIE Diagram in my case. Try both and calibrate to the most accurate one.

I also noticed that on mine as well... and though my projector is no where near calibrated it was closer to the HDTV setting. I will use that setting then.

I too use the dtp-94.
You shouldn't use the calibration file. the software is just telling the meter to take a reading, then interpreting the returned data.

what you do need to do is to "calibrate internal sensor offsets". this should be done periodically during a long run. what that's doing is calculating the effects of the internal amplifiers and then accounts for the effect. as an aside the dtp-94 automagically uses an internal table to account for temperature effects. Another member of the forum reports 10% variations in measurments for as little as a change of 5 deg F.

You also need to make sure you choose the correct compensation, LCD or CRT. the sensor also supports raw. I don't recall if HCFR does or not. If they did it might be of use.

The HCFR internal temp button just returns sensor's temperature measurement.

Best,
jeff

I also am wondering what procedure to follow as far as calibrating the DTP-94. I calibrated it with the Optix software. Should I calibrate it with HCFR, copy the calibration file from Optix folder, or use default in HDFR? Do you calibrate the DTP-94 each time you use it, or only the first time? I have already done the "calibrate internal sensor offsets" and "internal device temp" readings in HCFR sensor menu and copied down the results.

I would appreciate any advice you can provide.

Jack

which oppo do you have and how is it connected to the display/projector? when upconverting, the oppo should be outputing in the SD colorspace, since that's what the DVD is mastered in. if you use the DVI connector, then this connection is carrying RGB, so the display can't misinterpret it. If HDMI, then the spec. is supposed to contain colorspace info along with YCrCb info so that the display does the right thing - i.e. convert to RGB using SD colorspace.

If you're getting HD colorspace then this is odd.

Best,
jeff

I also have an OPPO and I set my reference to HDTV. NTSC is off on the CIE Diagram in my case. Try both and calibrate to the most accurate one.

I too have read this thread for weeks and ordered the Optix xr probe and downloaded and installed the HCFR software and DVD.
It seems that users here also use a calibration DVD such DVE, Avia or getgray. Is such a dvd a must have and what it is used for?
I have the Avia's S&V DVD and found it useless to calibrate contrast on my DLP pj. Can't contrast and brightness not be set with the Optix and HCFR?
Thanks.

which oppo do you have and how is it connected to the display/projector? when upconverting, the oppo should be outputing in the SD colorspace, since that's what the DVD is mastered in. if you use the DVI connector, then this connection is carrying RGB, so the display can't misinterpret it. If HDMI, then the spec. is supposed to contain colorspace info along with YCrCb info so that the display does the right thing - i.e. convert to RGB using SD colorspace.

If you're getting HD colorspace then this is odd.

Best,
jeff

I have the Oppo 971H connected via DVI through a Gefen DVI switch and then to a sharp DT-400.

Thanks a lot Jeff. Very helpful. I am assuming, then, that the dtp probe is taking care of temp measurements, and adjusting for those, so I don't have to do anything more than to run HCFR's "calibrate internal sensor offsets" periodically during a calibration.

I will be calibrating a CRT TV now, so I will use CRT compensation. If I get a DLP projector in the future, would I use LCD mode, as has been specified when using the spyder probe?

Jack

I too use the dtp-94.
You shouldn't use the calibration file. the software is just telling the meter to take a reading, then interpreting the returned data.

what you do need to do is to "calibrate internal sensor offsets". this should be done periodically during a long run. what that's doing is calculating the effects of the internal amplifiers and then accounts for the effect. as an aside the dtp-94 automagically uses an internal table to account for temperature effects. Another member of the forum reports 10% variations in measurments for as little as a change of 5 deg F.

You also need to make sure you choose the correct compensation, LCD or CRT. the sensor also supports raw. I don't recall if HCFR does or not. If they did it might be of use.

The HCFR internal temp button just returns sensor's temperature measurement.

Best,
jeff

greeno-

Mine is the 971H as well. Going from DVI>HDMI RP CRT. CIE triangle fits best on HDTV color space, even in C@lM@n.

I too have read this thread for weeks and ordered the Optix xr probe and downloaded and installed the HCFR software and DVD.
It seems that users here also use a calibration DVD such DVE, Avia or getgray. Is such a dvd a must have and what it is used for?
I have the Avia's S&V DVD and found it useless to calibrate contrast on my DLP pj. Can't contrast and brightness not be set with the Optix and HCFR?
Thanks.
Well yes and no. you need to have a way to deliver test patterns to the pj, either HTPC or dvdplayer. If dvd player, then you need patterns. if you can use PAL, then use the HCFR guy's PAL disc. if not, then you have some of what you need on S&V HTTU. A better choice IMO is getgray, especially for digital displays like yours.

black point (brightness) can be set with nearly any pluge pattern and you ahve that. getgray has specially designed white point (contrast patterns) that will help digital display owners "get it right", but it's not required.

the probe can be used primarily to measure color content (gray, primary and secondaries) and tell you what changes to make to the controls (drives/cuts, color and tint). From these measurements you can characterize your display.

Best,
jeff

the probe can be used primarily to measure color content (gray, primary and secondaries) and tell you what changes to make to the controls (drives/cuts, color and tint
Best,
jeff

It doesn't actually tell you what changes to make to the controls.... does it? You have to read the graphs and interpret what to change. If it told me what to change then I'd be done by now! I think the hardest thing is knowing what to change for each graph.

I also have an OPPO and I set my reference to HDTV. NTSC is off on the CIE Diagram in my case. Try both and calibrate to the most accurate one.


Not sure what is happening here but I have read many times NOT to use HDTV colorspace for upconverting dvd (I need to find some post)...I have personally never tried it and my color space NTSC using 0-255 hit every mark..I will give this way a go just to see.

Here is my Mits3000U file

In my case, zenith 318 and lg 418, I need to use the HDTV colorspace since that's what my player outputs (with green slightly depressed because of the colorpsace mismatch - the player outputSD upconverted and the display's expecting HD). if the player's doing the right thing then you should use the SD (NTSC)page.

Best,
jeff

Thanks a lot Jeff. Very helpful. I am assuming, then, that the dtp probe is taking care of temp measurements, and adjusting for those, so I don't have to do anything more than to run HCFR's "calibrate internal sensor offsets" periodically during a calibration.

I will be calibrating a CRT TV now, so I will use CRT compensation. If I get a DLP projector in the future, would I use LCD mode, as has been specified when using the spyder probe?

Jack


Use LCD MODE for CRT you have. THe DTP-94 in CRT mode is only for direct-tv..I tried the LCD mode in the SPyder2 and LCD mode in DTP-94 and both came back nearly identical for my Mits55807 CRT..

It doesn't actually tell you what changes to make to the controls.... does it? You have to read the graphs and interpret what to change. If it told me what to change then I'd be done by now! I think the hardest thing is knowing what to change for each graph.

Nate, it doesnt tell you but by highlighting and IRE column, you should see if you have to much blue, red, green.

The key is highlighting an IRE an clicking on DISPLAY MEASURE INFORMATION icon..what you want is to get all 3 of those color bars at 100% or as close to it (well - I say that like its really that simple)

correction - crt mode for the dtp-94 is for direct view and non-directview.
lcd is for, well lcd ;-)

jeff
Use LCD MODE for CRT you have. THe DTP-94 in CRT mode is only for direct-tv..I tried the LCD mode in the SPyder2 and LCD mode in DTP-94 and both came back nearly identical for my Mits55807 CRT..

Richlo... for some reason when I download your zip file it won't open up in HCFR

Greeno... I have the Zenith318 downstairs hooked up to a Panasonic AE700. I can tell you that the Oppo is by far a better DVD player... :) ok back on subject now.

I need some help figuring a few things out. 1)On the gray scale window In the lower right corner, there is a drop down that lists: near black, near white, and different Saturation color scales. What are these used for and what patterns do they use for reading?
2)On the "display" window there is: Sensor, RGB, XYZ, xyz, and xyY. What do these do? And which one should be selected? I noticed that after I took grey scale readings and switched which one was selected... the numbers in the gray scale window changed.
3) when I select the realtime capture, what patterns should I generate to when working on getting my colors to match up to the CIE Diagram?

correction - crt mode for the dtp-94 is for direct view and non-directview.
lcd is for, well lcd ;-)

jeff


well the good thing is - Baffle on and baffle off is a NON ISSUE ;)

LCD also for DLP :p

[QUOTE=nate358]Richlo... for some reason when I download your zip file it won't open up in HCFR

Save it to DESKTOP and open from there

.

I need some help figuring a few things out. 1)On the gray scale window In the lower right corner, there is a drop down that lists: near black, near white, and different Saturation color scales. What are these used for and what patterns do they use for reading?

These patterns are to give you far more advance readings in the CIE diagram..and really I believe - less important (to me at least)

2)On the "display" window there is: Sensor, RGB, XYZ, xyz, and xyY. What do these do? And which one should be selected? I noticed that after I took grey scale readings and switched which one was selected... the numbers in the gray scale window changed.

Sensore is only good for HCFR Sensor - no use at all - but you can see its just a measure of return gross amount

XYZ, xyz, xyY are other methods of measure, best to use xyz as this will give you the aid to hit .313 and .329

3) when I select the realtime capture, what patterns should I generate to when working on getting my colors to match up to the CIE Diagram?

This is used to test over several times an IRE, so if your struggling on the lowend, use this to repeat readings of that IRE, then you may EDIT above that information, please note that you must be in xyY mode and click EDIT measure above, then you can switch back to xyz mode and it will keep that information.


Anyone feel free to let me know if I am incorrect in understanding these - as I am very very new also in calibrating but do much reading as possible..

I tried the zip file again... and it says that HCFR encounterd a problem and needs to close.

and when you say .313 and .329...... what do those represent? ok where do I need to go read at? haha looks like I'm lost big time. All I know is I want all my colors to match up on the CIE Diagram, gamma at 2.2, and gray scale at D65.

hi nate,
which oppo? 970HD?

to read up on color coordinates (.313, .329) to go :
http://www.videoessentials.com/resources.php

jeff

Okay for color and tint, what you want to do is read your primaries 1st, then adjust COLOR in your user menu until you hit Red by the RED X, Blue by the Blue X, and Green by the Green X in the CIE DIagram (or as close as you can get with in the triangle points). If you want, run them to either extreme to see how it actually works, then when you get that as close as possible, run your Secondary colors (tint) and then see where those are and adjust to get to those color points. Once your done there, then move on to your greyscale - assuming that you have already set contrast and brighness already (which is very important).

x=.313 y=.329, these are the coordinated for D65, which will get your greyscale to 6500K or close too..Concentrate first on the HighEnd and then work on the lowEnd (use 30IRE and 80IRE as your MAIN areas of concern)..Do not try to adjust to 6500K -adjust looking at the coordinates as there are many ways to hit 6500K but only one way to get to D65 (or rather .313 .329)

You should be able to go back some pages and see some of my other files I have posted.

so now you know D65= .313 329 coordinates

hi nate,
which oppo? 970HD?

jeff

no I have the Oppo 971H

Nate I have the 971 also..

Okay for color and tint, what you want to do is read your primaries 1st, then adjust COLOR in your user menu until you hit Red by the RED X, Blue by the Blue X, and Green by the Green X in the CIE DIagram (or as close as you can get with in the triangle points). If you want, run them to either extreme to see how it actually works, then when you get that as close as possible, run your Secondary colors (tint) and then see where those are and adjust to get to those color points. Once your done there, then move on to your greyscale - assuming that you have already set contrast and brighness already (which is very important).


Ok I've got that... but it's the process that I'm not sure of.

So like Red, do I throw up the RED 100% pattern from Getgray and then check on the CIE where it hits, then move the Red slider bar on my projector menu fully one way, then read the RED pattern from getgray and continue this process until it hits the mark and for each color. And can I use the continuous read function so I can see real time adjustments. Or do I just send up a white image and move the Red and Blue sliders until all the corresponding colors hit the CIE diagram. I do not have a Color or tint just RED and Blue sliders. I could put up all my controls in the user menu and service menu if you want.

OPPO971H DVI>HDMI RPCRT

Ok, reason why I need to use HDTV reference is because my RPCRT has undefeatable upscaling no matter what input or resolution I feed it and so it seems to transform color space. I ran a test on a regular direct CRT and using NTSC of course worked best, so I have no doubt that's what's happening.

*I found absolutely no difference between 0-255 and 16-235 on any measures performed.

Ok, reason why I need to use HDTV reference is because my RPCRT has undefeatable upscaling no matter what input or resolution I feed it and so it seems to transform color space. I ran a test on a regular direct CRT and using NTSC of course worked best, so I have no doubt that's what's happening.

*I found absolutely no difference between 0-255 and 16-235 on any measures performed.

That is what's happening with mine also.

Ok I've got that... but it's the process that I'm not sure of.

So like Red, do I throw up the RED 100% pattern from Getgray and then check on the CIE where it hits, then move the Red slider bar on my projector menu fully one way, then read the RED pattern from getgray and continue this process until it hits the mark and for each color. And can I use the continuous read function so I can see real time adjustments. Or do I just send up a white image and move the Red and Blue sliders until all the corresponding colors hit the CIE diagram. I do not have a Color or tint just RED and Blue sliders. I could put up all my controls in the user menu and service menu if you want.

Since you have an Oppo, the best thing you should do is burn the PAL disk from HCFR, it has basically all the patterns you will need for their software without the need of worrying.

I believe the pattern to be used is actually 75% and not 100% - someone help me here as I think this question was asked earlier today..

Since I have never used the Continuous reading - I really have nothing to contribute other than an understanding of it. For it though I would guess you need to know what your coordinates are for each individual color that you need to hit, and that is easy, go to the cie diagram, and put your mouse over each point of the triangle and view what those are for the given color and tint

btw..you should have Saturation (color) in the Oppo 971 not Tint (unfortunately)


BTW - Folk I apologize for any bad interpretation on how this all works - and I am sure that as we go along there wil be some adjustments to my interpretation and someone will more knowledge on calibration HOW TO.. :D

The global color and tint funtion together as one. The CIE chart is in reality a 3D space with a virtical plane. The color extremes, with no color, the RGB points fall near the central reference, but if you wind color fully up they try to over saturate, where inside the triangle is considered understaurated and outside the line oversaturated. Tint screws the RGB values around the center reference line. They kinda arc in a "U" shape. If you take 5 measures of RGB with the tint adjusted from the fully - to the fully + you will under stand this.
Brightness and contrast effect this chart a little aswell, as does individual RGB brightness and contrast.

The biggest issue I am seeing is clipping of infomation. This tends to happen when the contrast or gamma is too high the RGB values may run outa puff at 90% luminance , sometimes just one channel may be clipping.
I have found an indicator is the luminance chart with RGB turned on. You see clipping at the top of the curve if you see a color take a sharp kink towards white.
In the RGB historygram that same color may dip at the end as it runs outa puff to keep the delta e tracking.

Those 5 point near black and near white are experimental.
But I have found them useful. Near black has allowed me to set brightness by taking measures and adjusting the brightness up and down, with the help of my light boosting funnel. The same with contrast the white values allowed me to set the upper end clipping point.

Again its a case of taking some measures, adjust something and see the difference.

There is one key thing, if you aren't sure what is going to happen only adjust one thing at a time, if you move 2 things you a. don't know which one did the effect and b. might find they fight each other.

With experience you can probably guesstimate 2 adjustments at once.

just remember if it all goes pear shaped you always have the default points to start again. I have done this several times just to see if I end up at the same points on a following calibration.

Oh the realtime measurement thing I use with a grey scale like 10IRE and 90IRE where I use 10 to set brightness of each RGB channel and 90 to set contrast. The advantage with this is you can see realtime measures without endlass grey scale runs. Gets you in the ball park quickly before doing a grey scale run.

Smokey Joe

Can you take a look at my file..I think you hit a point with a KINK on my Gamma tracking..Is there any advice on what I need to do to eliminate this. I have posted my settings on their also
The1st three are theCONTRAST settings for RGB and then the next three are the Brightness settings for RGB..and I am afraid that I might be clipping Red, but otherwise, everything else seems to look quite okay to me..

Since you have an Oppo, the best thing you should do is burn the PAL disk from HCFR, it has basically all the patterns you will need for their software without the need of worrying.

I've thought about doing this, but if I calibrate to PAL won't that be wrong since I don't watch anything in PAL. Plus I don't have a DVD Burner! The only reason I was thinking about using it was to see what the patterns looked like.

Since I have never used the Continuous reading - I really have nothing to contribute other than an understanding of it. For it though I would guess you need to know what your coordinates are for each individual color that you need to hit, and that is easy, go to the cie diagram, and put your mouse over each point of the triangle and view what those are for the given color and tint

So your saying you read, adjust, read, adjust, read, adjust, read, adjust :eek:

btw..you should have Saturation (color) in the Oppo 971 not Tint (unfortunately)
But my DVD player is fine... It's my projector that isn't. I could calibrate my projector to HDTV then calibrate the DVD player back to NTSC... if that makes sense?

Well they projector and the DVD player go hand in hand, so if you dont have COLOR adjustments on your projetor, then you use the DVD player that it is hooked up to.

As for as read, adjust, read adjust..I think the continuous reading is the EASY way of my understanding, instead of read, run...that is what I do and probably NO MORE

My projector does have color adjustments it's just called Red adjustment and Blue adjustment. Heres what I have to work with:
User Menu
Contrast
Bright
Red
Blue
Color Temp
Gamma adjust

the following are all in the Service menu
DTV menu

Contrast:
Tint:
Color:
Sharpness:
Bright:
R-Bright:
G-Bright:
B-Bright:
R-Contrast:
G-Contrast:
B-contrast:

DVD menu

Contrast:
Tint:
Color:
Sharpness:
CTI-level:
LTI-level:
CB-Offset:
CR-Offset:
Bright:
B-DRIVE:
R-DRIVE:

VIDEO menu

Contrast:
N-Tint:
P-Tint:
S-Tint:
N-Color:
P-Color:
S-Color:
Sharpness:
CTI-level:
LTI-level:
CB-Offset:
CR-Offset:
Bright:
B-DRIVE:
R-DRIVE:

ADmenu

R-Bright:
G-Bright:
B-Bright:
R-Contrast:
G-Contrast:
B-contrast:

DLP menu

Index Delay:
R-Bright:
G-Bright:
B-Bright:
R-Contrast:
G-Contrast:
B-contrast:

VIDEO1 menu

N-Contrast:
P-Contrast:
S-Contrast:
Color:
NT3.58:
NT4.43:
SECAM Delay:
Sharpness2:

PIXEL menu

R-Gain:
G-Gain:
B-Gain:

Pedestal menu

R-Bright:
G-Bright:
B-Bright:
R-Contrast:
G-Contrast:
B-contrast:

OPTION menu

PW365 Gamma:
DLP Gamma:

nate-

Continuous measures is a nonstop reading of whatever IRE is displayed on screen. The way to use it is for example: put up 20IRE or 20% if using GetGrey on your screen. On combined histogram window, look at RGB Levels, if out of calibration you should see red, green and blue lines. Adjust your R-Bright, G-Bright and B-Bright until they converge onto a single line. Keep an eye on the color temp, you want it at 6500K, which you can see at the bottom of the same window. Then put up 80 or 90IRE/% and repeat, this time adjusting RGB-Contrast. Once done hit Stop.

You cannot adjust Primary/Secondary colors with this method. Are all those menus per input?

guys with 971's, how are you connecting to the display? if DVI, the oppo should use the SD color space, if HDMI, they oppo should use SD color space. are you getting SD colorspace because you're upconverting via component? I didn't know there was a hacked firmware for the 971 to upconvert via component.

jeff

Richlo, looking at your run 7 , run10 crashes my HFCR software?

Look at the lumenance chart and switch to log mode, note the red channel dipping badly to the floor. One might think that you need more contrast, but no, turn the down the contrast of the red channel by a few clicks, you might find that fixes this dipping/clipping and raises the red inline with the blue and green channels. If the overall delta e heads west when you knock down red contrast you might need to raise red brightness to compensate.
If that doesnt work, try then dropping both blue and green brightness to align with red.

Remember that you are mixing color in space with no particular right or wrong starting point, whilst aiming at the D65 reference.

Couple other indicators I have been noticing is when you run the IRE grey scale, when you go from 00IRE to 10IRE and 90IRE to 100IRE you should see a clear step in scale. If the step appears non distinct, at the bottom the brightness is wrong and at the top the contrast is off.

Again the 1% near black and near white grey scale should have small visual steps. Play with you PC monitor and with the 95 to 100 near white and turn down contrast untill you see the steps. Better to do this in the dark to remove ambient light.
We tend to set brightness to low and contrast to high.

guys with 971's, how are you connecting to the display? if DVI, the oppo should use the SD color space, if HDMI, they oppo should use SD color space. are you getting SD colorspace because you're upconverting via component? I didn't know there was a hacked firmware for the 971 to upconvert via component.
see my post here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9175405&&#post9175405)

SmokeyJ -

I think that crashing of file 10 is because I have a BETA software update - it might be crashing earlier versions??? hmmm.

sorry hdholic... I saw your post. Then your display is doing something really odd. DVI is already RGB meaning the colorspace is already taken into account. you set must be reconverting it internally to something else, then back incorrectly. Also,HDMI, by spec. should have the colorspace info "clues" included so that the set can convert to RGB using the correct colorspace. I would complain very louding about this as it is a real bug. What type of set do you have?

Best,
jeff

nate, are you also using a dvi to hdmi connector? the 981 is supposed to do the right thing via hdmi. I wonder if you set(s) would screw that up too.

Best,
jeff