Lashag -

I have no doubt that your picture looks great, but there will be a significant diff when you actually go the route I do, btw..BC has some funny thing that changes your color, so I hear, try to ZERO that, and then calibrate, without, I am not well versed on BC, but I know that ALL calibrators that have done the Mits3000U say to leave it OFF on it, so its possible that your color is off because of BC being on then added..Just a suggestion..

When calibrating, run a complete OTB calibration, then Highlight your 100IRE with Display Measurement icon in the HCFR program - put up a 100IRE field and pause it, you should be able to see your color bars in HCFR when you hit the Display Measurement, then run continuous the below to the rightside (called MEASURES) - just below the Greyscale area, then minimize the window that will pop up with HCFR, look at the bars (r,g, b), and start to cutting BLue and Green, until you get them in place, and you will probably see you will need alot less red contrast than originally..I had +16 Red Contrast when I started, now as you can see I have 3 for Red, cut green and Green and Blue.

Once you get 100IRE close to what you need, do a full run, then start tweaking away...Good luck..

btw..send me a copy of your file too see what it looks like OTB..

Do you know how to set brightness and contrast on DLP?? go to quote 992
above..

Make sure to use LCD mode, increase your read time, and baffle on for the spyder

Under Pref tab, select SD601 as your colorspace, then select 16-235

Here is the best I could do for my Sharp DT400 over Component. My colors are no where near the CIE chart, but when I used a blue filter the were perfect using the Getgray disc. :confused:

I then put in Mission Impossible 1 and 2 in HD.... The screen was so DARK!!! I couldn't see any shadow detail. I bumped up the Contrast just to see what I was missing.... there was so much! I ended up bumping up both Contrast and brightness... It's wierd though. I rechecked C&B and they looked good. I don't know what's going on.

I hope that version1.21 fixes this....

Looks like I'm going to have to visit the Service Menu... which is going to be a pain on my pj as there is no realtime adjustment.

After researching... I have found that my refurb pj must have been messed with as it's Service menu was different from others OTB settings. After setting them back I did get things closer, but my green is so far off! I don't know if it'll be fixable.
~Nathan

I then put in Mission Impossible 1 and 2 in HD.... The screen was so DARK!!! I couldn't see any shadow detail. I bumped up the Contrast just to see what I was missing.... there was so much! I ended up bumping up both Contrast and brightness... It's wierd though. I rechecked C&B and they looked good. I don't know what's going on.

I hope that version1.21 fixes this....

This has been an issue that the team hopes to fix with version 1.21. For now, set your gamma reference at about 1.94, that will give you a reference curve similar to a true 2.2.

btw..EVERYONE

MERRY X-MAS...
Feliz Navidad mis Hermanos e Hermanas

.

After many many many attempts, the attached is as good as I have done. I welcome comments, especially regarding the gamma ramp and overall lulminosity. I assume we are shooting for a constant gamma over IRE range? I have no idea how to do that, will keep re-reading thread. Also if I am interpreting the luminance graph (non log mode) correctly is it indicatiing that my overall brightness is low? I think I have included all pertinent info in the "info" window of HCFR. For color temp the 6 digits refer to R,G,B individual contrast settings on projector menu and R,G,B individual brightness settings on menu.
Merry Christmas
Happy Holidays
To All, esp the HCFR Team!!

Nice Job -

The only thing you need to do is lower you gamma, right now HCFR gamma tracking needs some work..For a 2.2 gamma, try hitting 1.94, that should put you in line with ACTUAL 2.2

That's a short answer, but almost correct so far...

We are refactoring that part right at the moment and will propose a new version soon.

--Patrice

Can't wait for the new release!

Lashag -

I have no doubt that your picture looks great, but there will be a significant diff when you actually go the route I do, btw..BC has some funny thing that changes your color, so I hear, try to ZERO that, and then calibrate, without, I am not well versed on BC, but I know that ALL calibrators that have done the Mits3000U say to leave it OFF on it, so its possible that your color is off because of BC being on then added..Just a suggestion..

When calibrating, run a complete OTB calibration, then Highlight your 100IRE with Display Measurement icon in the HCFR program - put up a 100IRE field and pause it, you should be able to see your color bars in HCFR when you hit the Display Measurement, then run continuous the below to the rightside (called MEASURES) - just below the Greyscale area, then minimize the window that will pop up with HCFR, look at the bars (r,g, b), and start to cutting BLue and Green, until you get them in place, and you will probably see you will need alot less red contrast than originally..I had +16 Red Contrast when I started, now as you can see I have 3 for Red, cut green and Green and Blue.

Once you get 100IRE close to what you need, do a full run, then start tweaking away...Good luck..

btw..send me a copy of your file too see what it looks like OTB..

Do you know how to set brightness and contrast on DLP?? go to quote 992
above..

Make sure to use LCD mode, increase your read time, and baffle on for the spyder

Under Pref tab, select SD601 as your colorspace, then select 16-235
I took everything back to zero, rechecked with Get gray and started over
If I read correctly, it has been advised to read your primaries and get them to plot as close as possible on the CIE chart, how do you move the colors, my CIE was similar to my ZIP file , I tried backing off Green contrast and nothing changed? At that point I got the gamma chart almost dead on, but then my individual RGB's were no longer close to 100% I had before. I'm sure its something simple on my part. When reading the 100ire I then adjusted the green contrast down which then threw off the gamma chart a considerable, so I just reset . Anyway got to be something simple, I just need to walk away for a bit.

Hi Lasag-

Your primaries/secondaries are fixed just with your regular color and tint, not the Green Contrast (thats for greyscaling).

btw..go to Post1019, someone has the same projector -

If I read correctly, it has been advised to read your primaries and get them to plot as close as possible on the CIE chart, how do you move the colors...
Only if your projector has controls to move the Primaries/Secondaries coordinates will you be able to tweak them. Also, Primaries saturation are affected by color, Secondaries are affected by tint.

I tried backing off Green contrast and nothing changed? At that point I got the gamma chart almost dead on, but then my individual RGB's were no longer close to 100% I had before.
Like richlo said, individual colors brightness/contrast are for calibrating greyscale, which by the way, your Green should remain unchanged, since it impacts overall image brightness (lower too much, you end up with dim image). It would be your reference, adjust R, B to match green. Only if you see that either R or B is running out of steam before 100IRE, then you would lower all colors to correct the gamma.

The only thing you need to do is lower you gamma, right now HCFR gamma tracking needs some work..For a 2.2 gamma, try hitting 1.94, that should put you in line with ACTUAL 2.2[/QUOTE]

so are you suggesting that everyone use 1.94 as the standard gamma value until the updated version is released?

so are you suggesting that everyone use 1.94 as the standard gamma value until the updated version is released?
The team found a possible error where returned calculation is lower than what it should be. I've recommended 1.94 since it gives a gamma curve similar/close (not exact) to an actual 2.2 curve, otherwise it's like calibrating to a 2.5 gamma. If you still have the previous version of HCFR, just select Standard as reference.

Hi everyone,

Really would appreciate pointers on how I can improve. Take a look let me know. Gamma was based on 1.94. Thanks in advance.

Gamma was based on 1.94.
Your gamma is 2.41. You have to change your reference to 1.94.

This is something I forgot to ask but assumed I had it correct. What are the correct settings for the DTP-94 meter when using it with a front projector? Which mode lcd or crt, timeout, use internal black level checkbox yes or no, Do I click on calibrate internal sensors, etc. ? is anything else I should set or change in the other tabs?

I used CRT mode and left everything to default.

Jeff-

Depends - for CRT, then CRT MODE, for DLP/LCD then LCD MODE

When you start, 'calibrate internal sensor' - so yes

leave everything else at default..at least this is what I do..

Rich, thanks. I will change it to LCD mode and recheck it.

Your gamma is 2.41. You have to change your reference to 1.94.

I referenced 1.94, how do I get gamma lower though?

For DTP-94 users using v1.20:

When running grayscale, does your readings take longer at the low end (0-30IRE) and gradually take less time than at high end (50-100IRE)?

This is an example of how my reading time decreases (not exact, I did not time it)
0 - 20 seconds
10 - 15 seconds
20 - 10 seconds
30 - 5 seconds
...
...
80 - 1 second
90 - less than 1 second
100 - less than 1 second

On my first calibration with my new DTP-94, the readings for grayscale are TOTALLY different from my Spyder2 readings. Red and blue were off by quite a bit, but CIE was close. :confused: Will do more testing this week.

Hi everyone,

Really would appreciate pointers on how I can improve. Take a look let me know. Gamma was based on 1.94. Thanks in advance.

Hi oomka,
Can you post your settings in the user menu (display mode, iris, picture, brightness, color, hue, color temp, white balance, etc)? And/or settings in the service menu if you adjusted those also. :D

Thanks, greatly appreciated.

I referenced 1.94, how do I get gamma lower though?
That has been posted a few times. You need gamma controls either in user menu or service menu. If your Sony set has different gamma settings, try all of them. If you get color clipping at the upper range, see my post here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9275782&&#post9275782).

For DTP-94 users using v1.20:

When running grayscale, does your readings take longer at the low end (0-30IRE) and gradually take less time than at high end (50-100IRE)?

This is an example of how my reading time decreases (not exact, I did not time it)
0 - 20 seconds
10 - 15 seconds
20 - 10 seconds
30 - 5 seconds
...
...
80 - 1 second
90 - less than 1 second
100 - less than 1 second

On my first calibration with my new DTP-94, the readings for grayscale are TOTALLY different from my Spyder2 readings. Red and blue were off by quite a bit, but CIE was close. :confused: Will do more testing this week.

This is normal (and you might have selected averaging reads on the DTP-94)...the low-end takes a little longer to read, the higher is quick because its so much brighter (or I mean more contrast - hahahah). Although 20 sec seems long, so I think you selected to average reads..

Is the diff w/spyder on the low-end, if so, this is typical - that is why the DTP-94 is much better, more accurate on the lowend..

That has been posted a few times. You need gamma controls either in user menu or service menu. If your Sony set has different gamma settings, try all of them. If you get color clipping at the upper range, see my post here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9275782&&#post9275782).

That is exactly what I did (adjusted gains in biases of R and B in the service menu). However the image is dim and gamma still high.

That is exactly what I did (adjusted gains in biases of R and B in the service menu). However the image is dim and gamma still high.
Your image is dim because you have an actual gamma of 2.86!! You might have misread my post. Gains and Biases are for grayscale not gamma. Only if you have clipping, then you would adjust gains and biases to correct that. You need to adjust your gamma controls.

This is my second go around with my HD1000 on a FG screen. The results have improved , if I'm reading correctly I need to adjust the Red and Green brightness on the low end and then readjust the top. Before I do this , I want to be sure this isn't the Spyder not reading the low end correctly. Txs for everyones help.

That is exactly what I did (adjusted gains in biases of R and B in the service menu). However the image is dim and gamma still high.

In the service menu (and sometimes in the user menu), there is a GAMMA adjustment available..

so to do this i need to buy a sensor?

so to do this i need to buy a sensor?

YES ;)

OK this probably belongs in another thread but I will ask anyway. My projector has 3 gamma settings, gamma low, gamma mid and gamma high. The low gamma seems to affect from about 30 down, mid from 40 to 60 and high all the rest. Each one has quite a bit of adjustment up and down. When I change one of the gamma settings it affects the grayscale. Sometimes a little and sometimes a lot. Starting from scratch, should I get the gamma correct first and then try to correct grayscale or vice-versa? What is the approach a calibrator would take when starting from scratch?

This is normal (and you might have selected averaging reads on the DTP-94)...the low-end takes a little longer to read, the higher is quick because its so much brighter (or I mean more contrast - hahahah). Although 20 sec seems long, so I think you selected to average reads..

Is the diff w/spyder on the low-end, if so, this is typical - that is why the DTP-94 is much better, more accurate on the lowend..

I will check the 'average reads' setting tonight.

No, not just the low end, it was completely different from 20IRE and up. The blue and red for grayscale was ~20% lower on the DTP94 than the Spyder2.

When using the 'calibrate internal sensor offsets' it asks for an absolute black surface, what are we supposed to use for that?? :confused:

Starting from scratch, should I get the gamma correct first and then try to correct grayscale or vice-versa? What is the approach a calibrator would take when starting from scratch?
I'd definitely recommend getting gamma right b4 doing a grayscale calibration for the reasons you are experiencing. Gamma calibration is VERY important for a complete accurate calibration.

to calibrat the sensor on an absolute black surface means put it on any flat surface that is not illuminated. A flat table, the top of the set, etc will work. It just needs to be a non-emitting surface and not in a very bright room where stray light might leak in. Note that the sensor has a compliant "gasket" around the edge. when you lay it on a flat surface, it makes a seal.

This feature is what makes the dtp-94 a bit better than the spyder2. It accounts for the amplifier noise so that low light level measurements are more accurate.
Best,
jeff

Hi oomka,
Can you post your settings in the user menu (display mode, iris, picture, brightness, color, hue, color temp, white balance, etc)? And/or settings in the service menu if you adjusted those also. :D

Thanks, greatly appreciated.

HTPC
Nvidia 6600 DVI-HDMI

USER MENU
Iris Auto2
Picture 89
Brightness 50
Color 29
Hue 0
Sharpness 30
NR Off

Advanced
All Enhancements OFF
WB Unchanged

Other Settings
Power Savings OFF

SERVICE MENU

Code:
WEM SERVICE
057 pip_user_gm.spf
000 UGAM 53 (default 51 on HDMI, default 46 on component)
Gamma


Adjusted Gains in Biases in Service menu for the Greyscale


Can you guys take a look and see if Gamma is right? I'm pretty sure I can dial the greyscale better. Any other suggestions?

I referenced 1.94, how do I get gamma lower though?

This may be completely wrong and someone on here may say why you shouldn't do this but...

I've found if you don't have or can't find a gamma control whether it be in the user or service menu, adjusting the cuts for both r,g and b together can help. For example if you wanted to lower gamma ie get a lower number, raise r,g and b cuts say 10 clicks each for example. This should help but, you may have to check your black level and touch up greyscale a little afterwards but not much.

If you've got your default cuts/gains written down.... set your green back to default and try to pull red and blue to match green. I believe I've read somewhere that green sets luminance so changing green while trying to balance grey will play funny with your gamma. You should try and pull red/blue to green. YMMV

Oh yeah... Using some type of auto iris will make it harder to get a nice gamma curve.

Here is my first pass settings on my Sony 60A2000 with DTP94.

HTPC
Nvidia 8800GTS DVI-HDMI

USER MENU
Iris Auto2
Picture 90
Brightness 55
Color 36
Hue 0
Sharpness 30
NR Off

Advanced
All Enhancements OFF
WB Unchanged

Other Settings
Power Savings OFF

SERVICE MENU

WEM SERVICE
057 pip_user_gm.spf
000 UGAM 54 <--- oomka, try 54, it is closer to 2.2
Gamma

PANEL
002 WB
003 R_GAIN 132
004 G_GAIN 109
005 B_GAIN 73
006 R_BIAS 137
007 G_BIAS 127
008 B_BIAS 128

I will try and detail tune the grayscale a bit more tonight, and see if I can bring the colors for rec709 tighter.

Richlo,
Thanks for the tip, I did have 'average reads' selected. :P

Hey N3W, i'm not sure if you are supposed to be playing around with the GAINS & BIASES in the PANEL sub-section of the service menu! I have always adjusted the RCUT, BCUT, GCUT & RDRV, BDRV & GDRV in one of the other sections of the menu( at work right now so i cannot remember exactly what the Title is for that particular section). Ask around, but i really think the PANEL values should remain unchanged. I could be wrong.

Good Luck!
Carmine.

Hey N3W, i'm not sure if you are supposed to be playing around with the GAINS & BIASES in the PANEL sub-section of the service menu! I have always adjusted the RCUT, BCUT, GCUT & RDRV, BDRV & GDRV in one of the other sections of the menu( at work right now so i cannot remember exactly what the Title is for that particular section). Ask around, but i really think the PANEL values should remain unchanged. I could be wrong.

Good Luck!
Carmine.

some sets give you options, one can be UNIVERSAL cuts and gains, and then there are input specific cuts and gains..this looks to be the case..

I'm sorry Rich, i should have posted that i also own a Sony LCD RPTV & this set indeed has another CUTS & DRIVES section further into the service menu. According to many other posters on the site, i have never seen anyone adjusting the parameters mentioned by N3W. I just wanted to make him aware of this.

Carmine.

Here is my first pass settings on my Sony 60A2000 with DTP94.

HTPC
Nvidia 8800GTS DVI-HDMI

USER MENU
Iris Auto2
Picture 90
Brightness 55
Color 36
Hue 0
Sharpness 30
NR Off

Advanced
All Enhancements OFF
WB Unchanged

Other Settings
Power Savings OFF

SERVICE MENU

WEM SERVICE
057 pip_user_gm.spf
000 UGAM 54 <--- oomka, try 54, it is closer to 2.2
Gamma

PANEL
002 WB
003 R_GAIN 132
004 G_GAIN 109
005 B_GAIN 73
006 R_BIAS 137
007 G_BIAS 127
008 B_BIAS 128

I will try and detail tune the grayscale a bit more tonight, and see if I can bring the colors for rec709 tighter.

Richlo,
Thanks for the tip, I did have 'average reads' selected. :P


Were you able to adjust primaries in SM? And how do you tell what Gamma you have in HCFR?(sorry maybe a stupid question)

I'm sorry Rich, i should have posted that i also own a Sony LCD RPTV & this set indeed has another CUTS & DRIVES section further into the service menu. According to many other posters on the site, i have never seen anyone adjusting the parameters mentioned by N3W. I just wanted to make him aware of this.

Carmine.

Yes, noizemaker, I'm aware of the gains (drives) and bias (cuts) settings in the White Balance in the advanced settings in the User Menu. Those are input specific.

What I want to do is, set a calibrated baseline level using my HTPC and make adjustment, globally, with the PANEL service menu. Then I can go to all the other inputs and do minor adjustments based on the source in the user menu. :)

Were you able to adjust primaries in SM? And how do you tell what Gamma you have in HCFR?(sorry maybe a stupid question)

All the changes I made in the above post moved the primaries/secondaries indirectly to the positions they are in now. I still haven't found settings in the sm that will move them specifically.

You can see your gamma reading in the title bar of your grayscale readings.

It'll read....

Gray Scale ( Average Gamma: x.xx, with black compensation: x.xx, Contrast: xxx:x )

N3W813,

Your primaries and secondaries look almost dead on, what were the actual settings that you changed in SM to get them lineup like so?

Thanks

Am i not seeing something? Where do you see the primaries being almost dead-on?

N3W813,

Your primaries and secondaries look almost dead on, what were the actual settings that you changed in SM to get them lineup like so?

Thanks

First: sorry for being off topic, this will be my last post on specifics of the sony tv. Let's move the discussion here... http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9295815#post9295815

None of my primaries or secondaries are dead on, only cyan and yellow are close. :) But don't worry, I'm still trying. ;-)

The only changes I made are in the post above. The user menu settings; picture, brightness, and color. Service menu: gamma and white balance.

That's it, I haven't had time to test other settings in the service menu to bring the pri/sec tighter to the standard values.

That's what i thought, because looking at the xy coordinates as well as your CIE gamut, it didn't look like they were even close to being dead-on so i thought i was missing something, lol.

Good Luck.
Carmine.

Here are my results calibrating Pioneer 4216, using SpyderExpress and HCFR ver. 1.2: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9291109&&#post9291109

I guess it should go to the toilet now, since I was targeting 2.2 curve, and I should be targeting 1.94 curve. Bummer. On the other hand, maybe I will be able to get closer to proper gamma using Gamma 1.8 preset from the Service Menu (SM).

Does anyone know how to store Gamma using Pioneer 4216 Service Menu? I am able to choose one of 1.8, 2.0 or 2.2, but when I turn the TV off, the Gamma returns back to 2.2 (or so they call it). Maybe some Pioneer 4214 owners can help? At least the code to get into SM is the same on 4214 and 4216.

Here are some notes on HCFR and on pattern DVD. Maybe some of these bugs/issues have already been mentioned.

* HCFR is classic MDI, not the friendliest window arrangement. But it is free, I should not complain :) Anyway, may I suggest a change, because with several measurements and with several windows open the whole interface get clunky. How about keeping MDI, but creating ONE child window for every measurement. This window would contain tabbed notebook with tabs labelled in correspondence to subview of a particuar measure, like: Measurements, Gamma, Near Blacks, Near Whites, RGB levels, Color Temp, etc. With this change every set of measurements and associated graphs will be contained in only one child MDI window. The tabs will allow easy switching of views. The toolbar buttons for graphs should be removed.
* Window headers call graphs as histograms, while in reality they are just line charts, they are not histograms.
* Clicking right mouse button on graphs toolbar produces interesting effect: it brings forward ALL child windows or appropriate type. Like, clicking right button on Gamma toolbar button brings all gamma charts for all currently opened measurements. A simple fix for this bug is removing this toolbar altogeter.
* Generator and Advanced menu items do not have hot keys.
* Measurement cannot be started using keyboard only, or at least I could not find how to do it.
* Preferences menu item has submenus: General, Preferences, Appearance, Language. First three items open the same dialog window, but different pages of it. This is crazy. Just add Language page to Preferences notebook, and remove all submenus from Preferences menu. Create new item in Preferences menu, call it Interface, it will open this dialog window.
* Move Sensor main menu item to Preferences menu. Combine "Sensor->configure" and "Sensor->select" dialog windows into one window having tabbed notebook. Open this window from newly created Preferences->Sensor menu item.
* Move Generator main menu item to Preferences menu. Combine "Generator->configure" and "Generator->select" dialog windows into one window with tabbed notebook. Open this window from newly created Preferences->Generator menu item.
* Language dialog box shows language list, and defaults to DEUTSCH despite that current interface language is English. There is no Cancel button, there is OK button only. OK what? I don't want to make any changes. So I clicked the cross on the right-top, and I got a message: "You must restart the application to validate the changes". I did not change anything, I should not be getting this dialog box. Change word "validate" to "apply". Damn, now "appl..." appears twice in the sentence... Then change "application" to "HCFR", so it would look like: "You must restart HCFR to apply changes". On the other hand, Windows allows to dynamically reload the resources, so in the ideal world the restart won't be needed.
* Seems that printing of charts is not allowed.
* Would be nice if charts did not have gradient background, it would be easier to save window content in a GIF file. Right now to keep gradient, I have to save into JPG, which is silly.
* There is About button on the toolbar, but there is no Help button. What gives? Also, moving "Help" menu item to the far right of the main menu is Windows 3.0 style. Also, please, rename "?" item to "Help", especially considering that the program can be internationalized. Add a hotkey "H". It is easier to read and to click. Right now "?" cannot be selected with the keyboard.
* There is no indication that a measument is being taken, there is no indication that measurement cycle has ended. I suggest displaying a modal dialog window saying something like "Measuring IRE xx, step yy of zz".

I hope these notes do not sound too direct and rude :) I think that HCFR is a fabulous program and I would like it to get even better. Thanks, guys!

**FEATURE REQUEST**

In the RGB graph, can you implement a way to display 'relative % error based on a certain color' for all 3 colors? I'm guessing the current implementation uses D65 as 100%?

For instance, selecting Green will put green at 100% then red and blue will be shown in % error relative to green.

Hope this is not too difficult. :D

that would be great N3W also the "lock" feature from colorfacts would be cool!!!!

Carmine.

I took everything back to zero, rechecked with Get gray and started over
See attached file at http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9274119&&#post9274119
Contrast ratio is 31103:1. 32768-31103==1665, looks more believable ;) I suppose there is a bug in arithmetics or in datatype.

In the RGB graph, can you implement a way to display 'relative % error based on a certain color' for all 3 colors? I'm guessing the current implementation uses D65 as 100%?

I second this request. While there is the ‘change white point’ option in the ‘references’ dialog, there is still only a limited # of targets.

For some people, for personally subjective reasons (coupled with the fact that I still haven’t met a display that I’d complain about being excessively bright) they may prefer to target say, 7900Kish with saturation leaning a little hot rather than ‘reference’. They may also, for personally subjective reasons, desire a slightly faster degamma function out of black say, 2.3ish and ending at a different degamma function for white at say 2.2ish. Or different functions for different ambients and REC.709 linear black tail segments.

It appears that the ‘standards’ and ‘references’ for things like the lens to eyeball transfer function are skewed and arrived at based on subjective preferences with the HVS anyway. I would find it very useful if I could target arbitrary (within reason) reference targets for these in HCFR. Tweak ‘n overclock.

-Dave

Hello,

This is something pretty straightforward to add... I add this to the wish list ;)

--Patrice

Could someone point me to a step-by-step tutorial for using HCFR with a SpyderII? (If it exists) I just got a spyder today, and want to see if I can improve greyscale on my KDS-R60XBR2 TV. I burned a DVD of the patterns disc, which won't play on my Toshiba HD-A1, so I play it on an MCE HTPC.

Any help would be appreciated.

Ungermann, thanks for your suggestions, as you spot some bugs are allready investigated...

Note that some strange naming or terms are translation issues, BTW, the program (aka "application" in French ;)) name is "HCFR Colormeter"... HCFR alone have a different meaning (it is the name of a organisation).

Some other suggestions (especially windows/menu reorg.) are allready on 1.3 and/or 2.0 todo list ;)

--Patrice

Something weird is going on...

With the latest version of the HCFR dvd patterns and the latest version of HCFR program, my results are different..WAY OFF..from my last calibration I did with the older version..I uninstalled the Newest release and went back to where there was a Gamma Ref had a Standard or 2.2..used the older version of HCFR patterns and bam, I am right back (close to) what I had before...what is even weird is that when I brought up pattern 100IRE on the newest release of patterns, with the previous parameters in place (older version of HCFR and patterns), its was blue...when I get the older version and put it up..its back to white...

I am not sure what is wrong...but right now I am sticking with the older version HCFR and the older version of their patterns until I figure out which is my problem..Im hoping that its the dvd

EDIT: I reinstalled the newest version and compared, its my DVD new version, something is not right with it...so I am sticking with the Older version..seems I am using the same pattern

Hello HCFR team!

I'm having a problem. I can't seem to get HCFR 1.2 to work with my Eye One display. When I try to use it, I get an error message that says "EyeOne.DLL not found. Cannot use Eye one device."

I've also installed the GretagMacbeth Eye-One diagnostics software program, and it tells me that my Eye One Display passes those tests. So apparently the device is installed correctly and working.

Do you have any ideas?

Excellent software, though. I've been exploring the software with the "simulated sensor" and I'm looking forward to using it once I get my Eye One Display to work.

here are a couple of my runs any suggestions on what is best I have 2 expert menu. I tried to also use gamma reference 1.94 but it seems that I am loosing shadow detail.

Hello HCFR team!

I'm having a problem. I can't seem to get HCFR 1.2 to work with my Eye One display. When I try to use it, I get an error message that says "EyeOne.DLL not found. Cannot use Eye one device."

I've also installed the GretagMacbeth Eye-One diagnostics software program, and it tells me that my Eye One Display passes those tests. So apparently the device is installed correctly and working.

Do you have any ideas?

Excellent software, though. I've been exploring the software with the "simulated sensor" and I'm looking forward to using it once I get my Eye One Display to work.


Actually go to your EyeOne folder and find the Eyeone.DLL file and copy it to the HCFR file where the exe. file is at..bet it will work then

here are a couple of my runs any suggestions on what is best I have 2 expert menu. I tried to also use gamma reference 1.94 but it seems that I am loosing shadow detail.
You should stick to 1.94. Any lower and you'll end up with a "washed out" image and low contrast. At this point your black level looks high. How's your black, does it look dark gray? Your gamma still needs alot of work in the midrange. Try fixing that before anything else.

Actually go to your EyeOne folder and find the Eyeone.DLL file and copy it to the HCFR file where the exe. file is at..bet it will work then
Thank you for your help, Rich. My Eye-One Display works correctly now!

I had to install the "Eye-One Match" software that came with the Eye-One Display LT, then copy the eyeone.dll file from that software's installation directory to the Colorimetre HCFR installation directory. I was getting a new error message that "EyeOne.dll returned an error during initialization" so I reinstalled the driver for the device.

Now it works!

Great piece of software, HCFR Team.

Something weird is going on...

With the latest version of the HCFR dvd patterns and the latest version of HCFR program, my results are different..WAY OFF..from my last calibration I did with the older version..I uninstalled the Newest release and went back to where there was a Gamma Ref had a Standard or 2.2..used the older version of HCFR patterns and bam, I am right back (close to) what I had before...what is even weird is that when I brought up pattern 100IRE on the newest release of patterns, with the previous parameters in place (older version of HCFR and patterns), its was blue...when I get the older version and put it up..its back to white...

I am not sure what is wrong...but right now I am sticking with the older version HCFR and the older version of their patterns until I figure out which is my problem..Im hoping that its the dvd

EDIT: I reinstalled the newest version and compared, its my DVD new version, something is not right with it...so I am sticking with the Older version..seems I am using the same pattern

Hi Richlo.
Do you meen that you have the same results with 1.1 and 1.2 version if you use the same DVD but a different results With old and new DVD ?
which DVD version do you use (old and new ?)
Do you have .chc with correct and incorrect results ?

Benoit ;) I assume Richard is taling about "old" and "new" version of getGray...

Am I right Richard ?

--Patrice

Hi Richlo.
Do you meen that you have the same results with 1.1 and 1.2 version if you use the same DVD but a different results With old and new DVD ?
which DVD version do you use (old and new ?)
Do you have .chc with correct and incorrect results ?

Ki_ Check your mail!!.. You've got a private..mail


regards

Here is something odd I discovered. I tried calibrating normal mode on my panny 900u and I got a pretty good calibration and an even better contrast ratio than in cinema 1. Color chart looked good too except magenta was a bit off. When I was happy I saved it and looked at some video. Whoa! something was wrong. I switched back to cinema 1 and saw what was happening. In normal mode all the colors were washed out. Any thoughts on why this might be? Both calibrations looked almost the same except normal had a much better contrast ratio. My first thought was the color decoder just does not work correctly in the normal mode.

Benoit ;) I assume Richard is taling about "old" and "new" version of getGray...

Am I right Richard ?

--Patrice


actually the HCFR DVD PAL PATTERNS...the older version gives me diff results as the newest version of it..and I am only talking about the greyscale patterns (I do not use the others) under the PROJECTOR (well its in French) selection on the DVD

The Software of HCFR was never the problem, although I thought it was, I ran both old HCFR software and New HCFR software with both OLD dvd version and it was fine, then switch to NEW and then my results where WAY off..I am just hoping its a bad burn or something..

Sorry I didnt do any saving - I was pretty fustrated because I couldnt believe the diff.
I will try later tonight to see if I can do a save of both..Hopefully I am wrong - but it was a couple of hours of reverting back to my original and starting from there

Ok, Rich, Than it is very strange as the last DVD (1.1.5) is only a few glitches changes... AFAIK there wasn't any chnages in patterns since ages.

Can you tell us what is your "old" version ? (1.1.4 ?)

--Patrice

You should stick to 1.94. Any lower and you'll end up with a "washed out" image and low contrast. At this point your black level looks high. How's your black, does it look dark gray? Your gamma still needs alot of work in the midrange. Try fixing that before anything else.

Some of the same advice, but I'll add that your contrast (gain) is HIGH for your RGB, also try re-adjusting FIRST your user contrast, bring it down a couple of clicks to see if it brings up your midrange gamma..

What I like to do is right click on the gamma and select LOGARITHMIC, Red, Blue, Green,

If you see on your results 50-80 there is a dip down, try adjusting user contrast (bring it down) - you may be thinking - DOWN?? not UP?? yes, when you see RGB going down too low it means contrast is set way too high, so try one click down on user contrast, then another until you get a flatter response, remember that once you do that, your greyscale may need some fine tweaking - and also it may be a result of using too much GAIN (contrast) on your colors. Another option, is if you have MID-Range Gamma then adjust that until you can get a smoother curve/flatter response.

Ok, Rich, Than it is very strange as the last DVD (1.1.5) is only a few glitches changes... AFAIK there wasn't any chnages in patterns since ages.

Can you tell us what is your "old" version ? (1.1.4 ?)

--Patrice

How would I be able to tell which version it is??

I know that if I right click video_TS folder, the date showing up is Nov 20th..

It is the 1.1.4, as it was anyway the first we made available on AVS...

i will double check but i'm pretty certain there was no changes in patterns between 1.1.4 and last...

--Patrice

Hi guys,
I'm approaching to video calibration with HCFR, so I will buy a colorimeter.

Given that DTP-94 (monaco XR optic) it's better than Spyder2, what about Gretag EyeOne (D2 or LT since are the same hardware) ?

Anybody has made a comparison with HCFR between DTP-94 and EyeOne D2 ?

bye
Emanuele

Okay here is my last calibration..although my last one was pretty good, the issue was that gamma was tracking higher than actual..plus I increase contrast ratio significantly from previous..

I don't know if anyone posted a part listing for the plastic (abs) enclosure that's readily available here in the us. Partsexpress has them in their catalog. go to partsexpress.com and search for "project box". the ones that look good are the hammond ones. click on the particular item and you'll get it's size. Hope this helps,
jeff

Some of the same advice, but I'll add that your contrast (gain) is HIGH for your RGB, also try re-adjusting FIRST your user contrast, bring it down a couple of clicks to see if it brings up your midrange gamma..

What I like to do is right click on the gamma and select LOGARITHMIC, Red, Blue, Green,

If you see on your results 50-80 there is a dip down, try adjusting user contrast (bring it down) - you may be thinking - DOWN?? not UP?? yes, when you see RGB going down too low it means contrast is set way too high, so try one click down on user contrast, then another until you get a flatter response, remember that once you do that, your greyscale may need some fine tweaking - and also it may be a result of using too much GAIN (contrast) on your colors. Another option, is if you have MID-Range Gamma then adjust that until you can get a smoother curve/flatter response.


Thanks for the advice I will try that tonight and spend another hours calibrating. as far as my blacks though, I am calibrating a plasma and it seems that when I try to bring it down some more I loose some shadow detail and my blacks are fine right now and it doesnt look dark gray. I also tried calibrating on the default set up and my gains are set on the middle ranges from 0 to 130 and default is 64, I only tweak my offsets to get the rgb in the middle. Are you suggesting to lower my gains and see if I have a flatter response on my gamma?
thanks hdholic and richlo :)

Gains and user contrast work hand to hand, so if you lower gain, in essense your lower red/green/blue (any of the one's you reduced) constrast, therefore its intuitive that when you do that - you recheck your constrast, same goes from Cuts(brightness). I would start with the user contrast as I suggested or if you have Mid-Gamma control, then there, make minor change, one click and see where you are at..

Hi,

I am using a spyder2exress (latest software installed). I have HCFR 1.2 installed, and have copied the cvspyder.dll to the program folder. I can get it to read from the sensor, and tried 0-100 IRE measure, but only seemed to get a green reading.
I am only getting Y values on continuous measure, so something seems to be wrong. I have tried both the old and new spyder2express software, and also the older HCFR, and the issue persists. Has anyone seen this before, or have I just set something up incorrectly? (HCFR set to spyderII, PROJ, and baffle is on the spyder2).

Thanks,
-rf

dont use PROJ mode, try the following:

LCD/CRT/DLP use LCD MODE - w/baffle on

hi to all,
i've tried to tweak my Sim2 HT300 Evo without using the service menu (done with Version 1.12 and spyder2).
which one of the setting should i use? where to go further on?
thanks!

Waho -

IF your using an older version..there was a 30IRE glitch in the program, which is showing up on your end..Upgrade to the newest release..and make no other moves and see what your coming up with..

Make sure your selecting RGB 16-235 under the PREFERANCES/REF tab..

I have a question for you guys. At work we have a Minolta CS-200 Chroma Meter (http://se.konicaminolta.us/products/industrial_light_meters/cs_200/index.html), that in theory I would be able to borrow. Would I use it to calibrate my TV? Would I be able to use this program to work with it? At work I have only used it to measure the intensity and wave length of LEDs. Any help would be appreciated.


Thanks,
Topp

I have a question for you guys. At work we have a Minolta CS-200 Chroma Meter (http://se.konicaminolta.us/products/industrial_light_meters/cs_200/index.html), that in theory I would be able to borrow. Would I use it to calibrate my TV? Would I be able to use this program to work with it? At work I have only used it to measure the intensity and wave length of LEDs. Any help would be appreciated.


Thanks,
Topp

No...the program is designed for the spyder2, dtp-94, Eyeone, HCFR probe

I have a recently purchased a DTP94, have installed HCFR (1.1.2) in my laptop and have burned the HCFR DVD.
I have used the DTP94 to "profile" a couple of computer displays and the thing worked flawlessly. However, with HCFR, as soon as I try to measure anything from the main window (primaries/gray scale/contrast) or even calibrate sensor' offsets, the application crashes. HCFR seemed to work well with the simulated sensor, though.
I have included the Optics .dll file and HCFR seems to identify it w/o problems.
I have checked LCD, DTP94, DVD manual, etc.
I have re-installed HCFR (both versions) a couple of times to no avail.
Am I missing something obvious?
Thanks for your help.

I have a question for you guys. At work we have a Minolta CS-200 Chroma Meter (http://se.konicaminolta.us/products/industrial_light_meters/cs_200/index.html), that in theory I would be able to borrow. Would I use it to calibrate my TV? Would I be able to use this program to work with it? At work I have only used it to measure the intensity and wave length of LEDs. Any help would be appreciated.


Thanks,
Topp
HCFR doesn’t appear to talk to it directly but you still should be able to use it. You’ll just have to enter the measurement data from the Minolta into HCFR yourself.

-Dave

Hi richlo,

So, I need to set it to LCD even if it's an LCD projector (Sanyo Z3)?
Thanks for your help.
-rf

At work we have a Minolta CS-200 Chroma Meter, that in theory I would be able to borrow.
That's one bad boy I'll love to have :D !

Yea it does do quite a bit and it wasn't cheap. I originally was asked to find equipment to measure the intensity of LED's and LED's assemblies. Of course then it turned into can we measure this and that. I think it was like $15,000 or something. They end up getting it after I got pulled off that assignment. I remember Minolta's cheaper one wasn't that much cheaper and this one seemed to do more.

I own the DVE DVD. Can I use that to output the colors and use the CS-200 to measure them? I just don't know what the values the disk are suppose to put out, so I wouldn't know if it was good or not.

Thanks,
Topp

I recently ran a quick greyscale/color check with my EyeOne PRO - very odd results, especially for Red primary read(values were reported as NEGATIVE numbers!!) Is the software designed to be used with the higher-end i1PRO?

Dan

Yes it is, it is even our default probe (except our own one).

--Patrice

Another question for the people who have actuatly made the DIY probe. How much did it cost you to make it and where did you get the parts. I think if I could get the parts and the documentation I could get some people from work to help me put it together, since I suck at soldering.

Thank,
Topp

Hi richlo,

So, I need to set it to LCD even if it's an LCD projector (Sanyo Z3)?
Thanks for your help.
-rf

yes

HCFR doesn’t appear to talk to it directly but you still should be able to use it. You’ll just have to enter the measurement data from the Minolta into HCFR yourself.

-Dave

yes..you can enter your measurement in the data area, just make sure to click on EDIT MEASUREMENT, it wont work though if you select xyz, xyY - works for it.

[QUOTE=laric]Yes it is, it is even our default probe (except our own one).

--Patrice[/QUOTE

So - why the very strange results? I am reading a Sony XBR960 CRT monitor - nothing odd about the monitor,and it's been calibrated with the i1 (different software) and the Spyder. Red primary coordinates are close, except that they are negative numbers (CIE chart has a minor problem plotting these...) and the greyscale values are highly eratic and suspect. I ran it CRT mode.

Dan

Dan -

try running in LCD mode and see what you get...w/baffle on

Dan -

try running in LCD mode and see what you get...w/baffle on
Rich, he's using an EyeOne PRO, no baffles used...that I know of :confused: :) . But I'll also suggest trying LCD mode ;) .

Dan, according to our users of E1, you must regularly calibrate probe offsets. it is something mandatory in ColorFacts, so far we did not make it mandatory, but you should do it.

--Patrice

Rich, he's using an EyeOne PRO, no baffles used...that I know of :confused: :) . But I'll also suggest trying LCD mode ;) .


oops, yes he did mention that...

Here are my results of calibrating Pioneer PDP-4216HD plasma TV using SpyderExpress with HCFR 1.2, targeting gamma 1.94 (considering a bug in 1.2 version).

User menu default values:
- Brightness: 50
- Contrast: 50
Service menu default values:
- Gamma: 2.2
- Red gain: 127
- Green gain: 123
- Blue gain: 98
- Red bias: 64 (cannot be changed)
- Green bias: 64 (cannot be changed)
- Blue bias: 64 (cannot be changed)

User menu changes:
- Brightness: 58
- Contrast: 45
Service menu changes:
- Gamma: 1.8
- Red gain: 124
- Green gain: 126
- Blue gain: 90

Gamma still looks ugly, but this is the best that I could do.

The Pio 4216 deal breaker is that while RGB gain levels are stored when the TV is turned off, the changed Gamma is not stored, and the TV reverts to default 2.2 value when turned on. Bummer.

Here is the link to Pio 4216/5016 thread with ready-to-see pictures: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9317055&&#post9317055

First off, thanks to all of those involved in providing his free software. I paired with the Optix-XR sensor and things look great. My colors, temp and grayscale all look good now but my gamma is a bit off. I have a Sony KP-57WS510 CRT RPTV and it does not have a gamma adjustment in the user menu nor can I find anything in the service menu. Do all TVs/projectors have a gamma adjustment of some sort and I just cannot find it?

Primetime -

There is gamma in the Sony,,look for UGAM or something like that in the service menu..I use to own the same set but the 46Inch..For the most part they all have some gamma adjustment, Im sure their may be some that dont

Ungerman-
Try leaving the default of the gamma on your set to 2.2, the issue is with how HCFR calculates it, it not your tv, so revert back to 2.2 because that is what it should be, just be aware that 2.2, may show it being more on the HCFR program..You did a fantastic job btw..looks superb..Next run a primary and secondary run to see how your color and tint look like

Try leaving the default of the gamma on your set to 2.2, the issue is with how HCFR calculates it, it not your tv, so revert back to 2.2 because that is what it should be, just be aware that 2.2, may show it being more on the HCFR program..You did a fantastic job btw..looks superb..Next run a primary and secondary run to see how your color and tint look likeI am targeting Gamma 2.2. I use HCFR 1.2, and as far as I understand it, I should set my target Gamma in HCFR to 1.94 for it to recemble actual 2.2 Gamma. This is what I did. Or am I not understanding something?

Pioneer's original Gamma 2.2 looks as awful S-shaped curve with crushed blacks and I could not make my dark grays look better without increasing brighness and decreasing contrast when picture got washed out. So I switched to lower Gamma and dropped brightness. Looks much better to me.

Update: I just calibrated my plug-and-play LCD monitor using SpyderExpress application, I targeted Gamma 2.2 and color temperature 6500K. Then I started up HCFR 1.2 and run a test using HCFR's built-in color patterns. The resulting gamma curve perfectly aligns with 2.2 Gamma target curve!

Now I am puzzled. SpyderExpress performed a calibration of my computer system, loading a custom color profile into Windows. Therefore the Gamma should be correct. Therefore, it seems that HCFR's reference Gamma 2.2 curve is correct too. In this case I don't see where is the error that everyone talks about? Why should I target Gamma 1.94, if target Gamma 2.2 seems to work perfectly well?

That is very likely because of way different black level in both cases, and I'm not surprised your LCD is ok...

It is often difficult to play with different offsets (camera/film, projector/display, probe...).

version 1.21 will be out very soon and it will address those question marks around Gamma ;)

--Patrice

Update: I just calibrated my plug-and-play LCD monitor using SpyderExpress application, I targeted Gamma 2.2 and color temperature 6500K. Then I started up HCFR 1.2 and run a test using HCFR's built-in color patterns. The resulting gamma curve perfectly aligns with 2.2 Gamma target curve!

Now I am puzzled. SpyderExpress performed a calibration of my computer system, loading a custom color profile into Windows. Therefore the Gamma should be correct. Therefore, it seems that HCFR's reference Gamma 2.2 curve is correct too. In this case I don't see where is the error that everyone talks about? Why should I target Gamma 1.94, if target Gamma 2.2 seems to work perfectly well?

I've had similar results to what you got...
Calibrate my computer monitor using both ColorVision hardware/software and also Gretag Macbeth hardware/software targeting a gamma of 2.2. After each monitor calibration I also ran a greyscale run using HCFR's built in patterns and I too found that it matched the 2.2 gamma curve perfectly.

Ditto for gamma adjustment here. The first time I ran through my calibration my CRT RPTV is dead on the 2.2 reference. But thinking I need it to be 1.94 I have been trying to find a way to adjust it.

Now I am puzzled. SpyderExpress performed a calibration of my computer system, loading a custom color profile into Windows. Therefore the Gamma should be correct. Therefore, it seems that HCFR's reference Gamma 2.2 curve is correct too. In this case I don't see where is the error that everyone talks about? Why should I target Gamma 1.94, if target Gamma 2.2 seems to work perfectly well?


I agree with you on this...and I have yet to try to target 1.94, Ive stayed above 2.08 - 2.2 on my set. I know that Kras calibrated a Mits 3000U and said that a 2.2 on this set was setting the gamma to CINEMA gamma and he did not tweak whatsover on it...using colorfacts?? not sure - I did the same and ran it - what do you know - 2.2 matching HCFR...but there has been some discussion that even Colorfacts may not have this correct...I'll wait for the new version of HCFR to come out..and go from there...I am not sure who is correct or not..hopefully this will be mute issue soon.

Im wondering of some of the issue are on the DVD used patters that are either IRE/%stimulus..since they both will calculate gamma differently - if I am correct.

Now I am puzzled. SpyderExpress performed a calibration of my computer system, loading a custom color profile into Windows. Therefore the Gamma should be correct. Therefore, it seems that HCFR's reference Gamma 2.2 curve is correct too. In this case I don't see where is the error that everyone talks about? Why should I target Gamma 1.94, if target Gamma 2.2 seems to work perfectly well?
They are different curves. PCs use the sRGB standard; all video standards have harmonized on the Rec 709 equation. sRGB just happens to resemble the classic L = V^Gamma that HCFR uses.

ColorFacts is also incorrect, by the way. Its simulated meter will generate a perfect 2.22 data set, with a hitch at 5%, using a 20 point grayscale. It will report the gamma of that set as <2.0.

Bill

Thanks Bill -

Its about time I get it..

Exactly, PC levels are totally different that video levels including calculation methods. I see the difference in the spreadsheet I use. When V1.21 is released you should all see the difference.

Primetime -

There is gamma in the Sony,,look for UGAM or something like that in the service menu..I use to own the same set but the 46Inch..For the most part they all have some gamma adjustment, Im sure their may be some that dont


Thanks richlo, The service manual I have apparently is incomplete as it does not list this, but I finally took the time to just scroll through every item and found UGAM.

Thanks richlo, The service manual I have apparently is incomplete as it does not list this, but I finally took the time to just scroll through every item and found UGAM.


I might actually still have my old manual in zip format?? its for the 500 serious which is almost - identical in alot ofway to the 510 series..

Make sure to change the color matrix to 1 (I think), this will correct the color decoder in the Sony

I might actually still have my old manual in zip format?? its for the 500 serious which is almost - identical in alot ofway to the 510 series..

Make sure to change the color matrix to 1 (I think), this will correct the color decoder in the Sony

Thanks, I have changed the matrix from 0 to 1. The service manual I have appears to be the official one but it is just missing some categories. In playing around with it in the past it seemed there were way more choices than in the documentation, but this is the fist time I wanted to change something not in the documentation. I just searched the pdf for gam and nothing came back.

Thanks again to all. I liked my picture before and love it now.

Sony always are known to track a nice greyscale and beautiful picture OTB..including that they are one of the few that actually get FOCUS correctly, you will notice probably that your focus knobs are glued (white), no sense of breaking it for re-focus (plus you void any warranties)

Folks,

Happy New Year all, and special kudo's to the team for this very nice tool.

I've got a Boxlight HD1 (Sanyo PLV-Z1) projector connectied via VGA cable to an HTPC running ATI 9800 Pro video card.

I was using GetGrey with Zoomplayer and the DScaler 5 Decoders with Spyder II and HCFR 1.2

Some assumptions:

* All my tests were set with PC levels, since I can see WTW and BTB I'm assuming this is an indication that I'm not clipping these so that PC levels are the right configuration.

* I've never done any calibration beyond GetGrey, DVE etc.

My projector in this mode has the following controls.

User:

Brightness/Contrast
Discrete RGB
Gamma

Service Menu has:

* R,G,B Bias (Cut)
* R,G,B Gain (Contrast)
* R,G,B deflicker
* R,G,B Gamma
* R,B While Balance
* Contrast Linearity.

I started with doing a contrast/brightness setup with User R,G,B set to 32 (middle), and contast set to 8 (0-15).

Then with HCFR (with baffle) set to LCD, 400 ms samples, Extended Low IRE and Gamma Reference of 1.94 I spent too much time tweaking.

Go a nice set of gamma lines but they were to low, moving user gamma to 15 moved that right up universally.

Then a few more adjustment.

My big question is a problem I have with Reds.

Enclosed is my latest run. You will immediately see that Red is off - this is on purpose - no matter what I try if I bring RGB all to the same level (low DE) in the RGB historgram the picture is obviously too red, especially in the higher IRE's. This is reflected in the CIE plot as well. Not matter how I swing the gamma curves (unless hugely off) and weather its using user or service setting any time I have HCFR report a correct grey balance the picture is tinted Red. HCFR reading seem to think everything is perfect in this too red situation (i.e. a CIE in this state gives near perfect primaries and secondaries (except Green Gamut cannot seem to be brought "in" the HD color space I'm selecting. Any thoughts?

sidenote: I've looked around a bit and found some references to calibrated Z1's without issue, but more interestingly is the cine4home article that stated that they never ever could bring the run up to the levels of Green and Blue and that a CC filter was needed to bring balance.

In my case I can in fact get the red up to that level but as I said it's clearly wrong.


Feedback thoughts appreciated.

I'm curious as to people's thoughts on using this free software and an inexpensive sensor as compared to an ISF calibration. If I have my contrast and brightness set correctly, use this software to get RGB levels, gray scale, gamma and color temp all correct, how much more benefit would an ISF provide? To me it seems for $100 or so and this software I can no longer justify the added cost for ISF calibration.

Laric and all - having just discovered this thread and read through all posts I am very encouraged by what I see here. Nice work! I've used ColorFacts 6.0 for years. I actually am very pleased with it. However, it seems to have been abandoned with no updates for years and no support. There is of course things I'd like to see improved upon. With your new software I'm hoping I can replace my ColorFacts for once and for all!

Some quick background, and then a few feature requests...

I use CF 6.0 with great success to calibrate front projectors. I have done this by "training" my SpyderTV meter to my EyeOne beamer. This gives me the best of both worlds - I get the color accuracy of the EyeOne with the great low level light readings of the SpyderTV with no annoying and time consuming "dark readings" necessary!

This also enables me to take readings directly from the pj lens about 18 inches away. Using this technique the light level output is sufficient to get ACCURATE readings down to just 5 IRE! I've used this technique for instance to calibrate my Sony Ruby pj with a dE of 0-3 from 10-100 IRE with just a dE of 8 at 5 IRE.

Here are some feature requests based on things that need improvement from ColorFacts:

a) please add a "train meter" function that would enable me to do what I do with CF as described above. Basically what it does is have you connect the first meter (EyeOne) and then it takes measurements for white, r, g, and b. Then it has you connect the second meter (SpyderTV) and take the same measurement. Then it uses this data to calculate offsets or something and saves this. You can then at any time load the trained (even after a different calibration session) or drop the train data if you want to use the raw instrument again. So you can switch back and forth. This is a CRITICAL function in CF for me which enables me to get such accurate results.

b) on the CIE chart, CF uses pretty large bubbles to represent the xy points for both the target Rec 709 points and the measured points. This makes it difficult (if not impossible) to use the graph to see how close you are to the actual points since the plotted "bubbles" obfuscate the target points. In looking at your software from screen shots it seems you use similar bubbles. Can you change this to use a very fine cross-hair ("+") for both the targets and measured points? I read in here something about a zoom feature. So the ability to zoom in and target the points would be great. Currently with CF I have to use the "raw data" window too look at the raw numbers and align that up with the raw target xy points for Rec 709.

c) I saw this mentioned in a request earlier in the thread and I wanted to second this request. I'd like to be able to specify a target x,y, take a measurement, and see what the dE is. For example if I get it the Rec 709 target xy for Red, as I take measurements I want it to show that I am at a dE of say 5. With CF you can only have your white point set as the target for dE calcs.

Well that's about it as far as feature requests go. I am very satisfied with CF. However my motivation for switching to your software is that with the level of effort and attention to detail and incorporating our feedback at this rate, that you will surpass ColorFacts and make your software far better. This is true especially considering that CF 6 is so stagnant.

Next, just a couple of questions:

1) I see you now have "EyeOne" support. However I want to be clear about this - does this mean that you support the EyeOne Beamer which takes measurements off the screen (not the one with the baffle that reads from the pj lens)? I understand that different EyeOnes require different support so I want to find out for sure if the EyeOne Beamer is supported. I believe this is GregTag's older sensor, about 3 years old.

2) If I install your software package on my PC, will this in any way overwrite or interfere with my drivers or dlls used by ColorFacts to talk to the SpyderTV or EyeOne Beamer? As mentioned my CF setup works very well and I haven't updated it for years (because there have been no updates! :mad: ). So I wouldn't want to install something on my machine that then caused CF 6 or its communication/results with the meters to break.

3) Also I just wanted to make sure that with your software I can take random, ad-hoc readings and look at the raw data or rgb levels or dE. I typically calibrate this way, picking various IRE levels during grayscale to work with. Only once I think I have things dialed in nicely due I run through a full grayscale check and look at each level.

Thanks, and keep up the excellent work!

Thanks for this constructive post LovingDVD, most of team members are also former CF users for most...

I'll go in details with your post later on, as you may have seen, Gretag support is pretty recent and yes we have to tune it a bit... (as we quite know their pros and cons, especially their noise and poor low level reading when not setup/controled properly) That will come... (We use E1 Beamer since ages, but the "direct" support inside software is recent)

To answer your questions :

a) This is almost what we call "auto calibration" that basically help us to produce profiles for our probe... But we have plans to wider this to be almost what you describe.

b) You can zoom at any level on any graphs that is especially usefull for you very request.

c) This is allready on todo list... cannot say yet when it appears...

1) We support both Gretag models, but especially the Beamer as it was (is) one of our favorite probe.

2) No interferences, we have many users with both CF (various version from 3 to 6.0) and our software whitout any glitches raised... As soon as drivers/dll are accessibles it simply works, at worst you'll have to make them available to app (if their current path isn't available) the easiest for this being to copy (not move ;)) them to the ColorHCFR directory.

3) Yes you can easily do any reading you want (and this will be improved again in upcoming 1.3).

Also with soon to come (this week...) v1.21, you'll have algorythm of choice around gamma maths to cover most of different situations.

--Patrice

I'm curious as to people's thoughts on using this free software and an inexpensive sensor as compared to an ISF calibration. If I have my contrast and brightness set correctly, use this software to get RGB levels, gray scale, gamma and color temp all correct, how much more benefit would an ISF provide? To me it seems for $100 or so and this software I can no longer justify the added cost for ISF calibration.

A good ISF calibrator brings more to the calibration than just measuring equipment. There is an art to performing a truly good calibration, which creates a truly excellent result.

A good ISF calibrator brings more to the calibration than just measuring equipment. There is an art to performing a truly good calibration, which creates a truly excellent result.
For sure !!
These are only tools, you can probably buy (or build) the best plumber tools in town, but that did not makes you a good plumber ;)

--Patrice

LovingDVD, to go a bit further in answers...

I use CF 6.0 with great success to calibrate front projectors. I have done this by "training" my SpyderTV meter to my EyeOne beamer. This gives me the best of both worlds - I get the color accuracy of the EyeOne with the great low level light readings of the SpyderTV with no annoying and time consuming "dark readings" necessary!

As I said, it is exactely as we proceed with our own probe.
We would have to extend this to create (temporary or not) profiles for any probes (not only ours), but, so far, we think that none are as sensitive as our one and so it makes it pretty difficult to have correct reading facing screen in low light level.
Anyway, this is something that may be available, as well as what some call "screen offset" (one facing screen reading, on facing projector and then all others will use screen offset), that will allow to by-pass dificult low reading on some probes.

c) I saw this mentioned in a request earlier in the thread and I wanted to second this request. I'd like to be able to specify a target x,y, take a measurement, and see what the dE is. For example if I get it the Rec 709 target xy for Red, as I take measurements I want it to show that I am at a dE of say 5. With CF you can only have your white point set as the target for dE calcs. i forget to mention we have Delta E on CIE Diagram, just go over a RGB/CYJ point, a "help baloon" will give you all details. ;)

1) I see you now have "EyeOne" support. However I want to be clear about this - does this mean that you support the EyeOne Beamer which takes measurements off the screen (not the one with the baffle that reads from the pj lens)? I understand that different EyeOnes require different support so I want to find out for sure if the EyeOne Beamer is supported. I believe this is GregTag's older sensor, about 3 years old.
As said, we support bothe Eye one Beamer (spectro) and Eye One Display. Both are supported using same selection of "Eye One" probe.
So far we have mainly tested the I1 beamer (so goood to go for you) not the Display (often use for screen/printers clibartion) some work may be needed with Display ones.

2) If I install your software package on my PC, will this in any way overwrite or interfere with my drivers or dlls used by ColorFacts to talk to the SpyderTV or EyeOne Beamer? As mentioned my CF setup works very well and I haven't updated it for years (because there have been no updates! ). So I wouldn't want to install something on my machine that then caused CF 6 or its communication/results with the meters to break.
We use same drivers and dll as CF. No need to re-install.
Only small thing to know, CF tend not to free up DLL usage afeter you close it. that makes then hard to start other software (including ColorHCFR) and sometimes require a reboot (that is a known issue with CF).
No problem on other way, we do release DLLs properly and CF can be use thereafter using ColorHCFR ;)

--Patrice & Team

Is the Display2 probe supported yet? Has anyone used it or compared it to DTP-94 or Spyder2?

Patrice & Team - thanks for the great feedback. I am glad to hear your train meter function is planned. This is so critical to me that I could not use your software without this feature, so I eagerly anticipate its arrival. Using the EyeOne is a major headache - annoying dark readings, inaccuracies below 30 IRE, inconsistent readings, having to read direct from the screen - all of this ads up to a very lengthy and aggravating calibration experience.

On the other hand, with the SpyderTV trained to the EyeOne, calibration is fun and quick. I can calibrate the Ruby's grayscale as mentioned from 10-100 IRE with a dE of 0-3 and dE of 8 at 5 IRE in just 15 minutes!! This used to take over 2 hours using just the EyeOne.

I'm glad to hear your team is very familiar with CF so you can build its strengths into your product while improving on its weaknesses. All the meanwhile CF sits idle so surpassing it should not be overbearing - just a function of time.

Please keep the CF "train meter" function in mind for exactly how I'd like to see you implement this feature in your product. In particular one should have the option to tell your software you wish to train a meter and take a series of measurements with the "master" and then a series of measurements with the other meter and then save this profile off under a name. Then later one should be able to load a saved profile or unload a profile if they want to go back to using the raw meter without any offsets.

Glad to hear the zoom function for CIE is nice. However please consider changing your "bubbles" on the graph to something much more precise such as a cross hair.

Also for dE measurements - I would find it a bit inconvenient to have to mouse over on the CIE chart to get dE. Please consider a tool like the "Raw Data" window of ColorFacts. The way I use this now under CF is that I bring up a certain IRE, say 80 IRE, and take a "single reading". I then look at the color temperature and dE which CF nicely displays for me. I tweak and re-tune. If I had to mouse over some graphic to get the dE after each reading (which if I understand correctly is how I would have to do it with your software) I would find this troublesome and would slow me down.

I read something in this thread about some sort of history window that makes it easy to compare results across readings. That sounds very useful.

Also can you please clarify something? I know you said that I can install your software without interfering or overwriting any of the drivers on my system I'm already using for the EyeOne and SpyderTV. However you then mentioned something about copying over drivers for use with your software. This confused me a bit. Does your program not contain drivers? I see it is an exe you install from so I'm not sure what the exe does as far as installed system files and other such dlls. And if I'm supposed to copy over driver files which files exactly?

At any rate I would love to give your software a try but the thought of having to go back to using the EyeOne is dreadful (as explained earlier in this post), and just the SpyderTV meter without training is not good because it is off without training would not work well. So I will sit tight and hope you have a chance to implement this training feature shortly. Please keep us posted on this here in this thread.

The way you describe training is exactely the way it currently works for our probe... Meaning we should "just" extend this to any probe... (I don't mean it'll there tomorrow morning ;)). And yes we perfectly know the pros and cons of I1 beamer ;)

You don't need to go over the CIE Graph to have thinfo you want, all is sumarize for a single measure on the floating Information Panel.

The "history window" you mention is that you can set a measure as being your "reference" measure (whatever that means to you) and then it will appear on all other graphs for all other measures... This and Continous measures are pretty handy to see how things evolved.

We don't provide drivers for probes, they are furnished with your probes... The software is autonomous but Gretag and some other porbes does require access to their dlls, those are furnished with drivers in most cases, it is all fine. But some people install them in locations not available to apps (that is the magic of Windows :D, where only dll in PATH and/or in windows dir are "seen" by others).
So, you may have to copy the gretag dll if we don't find them...

--Patrice

Also can you please clarify something? I know you said that I can install your software without interfering or overwriting any of the drivers on my system I'm already using for the EyeOne and SpyderTV. However you then mentioned something about copying over drivers for use with your software. This confused me a bit. Does your program not contain drivers? I see it is an exe you install from so I'm not sure what the exe does as far as installed system files and other such dlls. And if I'm supposed to copy over driver files which files exactly?

.

-
the .DLL file that is required to run your probe will be obvious. If you select your probe from HCFR, and the required .DLL file is not there - try to run a READ (greyscale) - you wont be able to because a specific .DLL file is required. So what you do is go to the folder where you have installed the software that came with the probe and locate that SPECIFIC .DLL file, COPY the file, PASTE it in the HCFR program file (where their exe is located)..this will activate your probe to work with the HCFR software..

-
the .DLL file that is required to run your probe will be obvious. If you select your probe from HCFR, and the required .DLL file is not there - try to run a READ (greyscale) - you wont be able to because a specific .DLL file is required. So what you do is go to the folder where you have installed the software that came with the probe and locate that SPECIFIC .DLL file, COPY the file, PASTE it in the HCFR program file (where their exe is located)..this will activate your probe to work with the HCFR software..

Thanks. So it will tell me specifically what DLL it is looking for or I have to know this? As a side, does anyone know where I could download the latest drivers for the EyeOne beamer and SpyderTV? I'm thinking mine are outdated, but am hesitant to upgrade them since things are just working just fine.

The way you describe training is exactely the way it currently works for our probe... Meaning we should "just" extend this to any probe... (I don't mean it'll there tomorrow morning ;)). And yes we perfectly know the pros and cons of I1 beamer ;)

Great, and yes I understand it is not coming tomorrow, but the day after that :D . No seriously I am not in a super rush because CF 6 works great for me as is. The reason I am interested in your package is because with CF seemingly being abandoned an no updates, I want to find a new package that can give me the benefits of CF but with improvements and innovations over time to make things better.

I am anxious to start using your software once this training function is implemented and look forward to providing your team with lots of great feedback and feature suggestions. It is refreshing to find a group of developers so eager to make innovations and enhancements and with this I know the package will just get better and better.

Is the Display2 probe supported yet? Has anyone used it or compared it to DTP-94 or Spyder2?
Yes it is, but so far support is in it's early stage (means not tune) as nobody on board (Color HCFR team) have it...

On probe compare, that a whole debate in itself, not realy the pupose of this thread... IMHO, they all have their own pros and cons and require some attention to be at their best... Anyway miracles don't apply here and a probe that cannot reliably return sub 20 IRE measures won't do even finely tuned... as we cannot all have a spectrometer like the Minolta series, we have to do with the good and bad points of probes...

That is also why we add some specific features in our software to help in low light reading (this goes from probe implementation, to specific graphs and some gamma modes)...

--Patrice

Yes it is, but so far support is in it's early stage (means not tune) as nobody on board (Color HCFR team) have it...

On probe compare, that a whole debate in itself, not realy the pupose of this thread... IMHO, they all have their own pros and cons and require some attention to be at their best... Anyway miracles don't apply here and a probe that cannot reliably return sub 20 IRE measures won't do even finely tuned... as we cannot all have a spectrometer like the Minolta series, we have to do with the good and bad points of probes...

That is also why we add some specific features in our software to help in low light reading (this goes from probe implementation, to specific graphs and some gamma modes)...

--Patrice

I cannot stress enough how wondering the a SpyderTV trained to the EyeOne beamer works, especially in low light because you aim the SpyderTV meter directly into the lens from just a foot or two away. I can consistently and accurately measure 10 IRE no problem whatsoever. And I cane do the same even at 5 IRE. The only caveat is that at 5 IRE every once in a while you get an obviously bad reading and have to repeat it (like once out of every 5-10 readings).

Also as I side note I forgot to mention that I put all of the ColorFacts exposure settings at their maximum. It takes several seconds longer to read settings (especially at higher IREs) but its worth it as it saves me time from getting inaccurate readings.

Thanks. So it will tell me specifically what DLL it is looking for or I have to know this? As a side, does anyone know where I could download the latest drivers for the EyeOne beamer and SpyderTV? I'm thinking mine are outdated, but am hesitant to upgrade them since things are just working just fine.

for the Spyder -


http://www.colorvision.com/sup_dl.shtml

for the Spyder -


http://www.colorvision.com/sup_dl.shtml

Thanks. According to that page it looks like the Spyder drivers are from 2003 so mine should be current then.

Here's my latest cal with the i1 (pointed at lens with ambient light filter on). I've really tamed the 90-100% readings. This has improved my picture, no more greenish flesh highlights. I have no idea what's going on below 20%. The 0% is an error reading (with a negative Y number). I've gotten good readings before with this i1 set up using Babelcolor software. Maybe I'll switch over to it next time for 0-10% and manually type in its readings so HCFR can calculate gamma and contrast ratio correctly.

I switched the projector's (Sanyo Z3 with CC30R filter) preset to Natural instead of Powerful to tame 90 and 100%. But it looks like something odd is happening at 60% with a sudden jump to DE 5. Weird.

Hello,

I1 is pretty eratic below 20 IRE and need constant calibration of black, also its noise level is quite high...

The way we prepare I1 is probably familiar to many ColorFacts users as it is almost the same way as described there.
This indeed apply to all other probes except the Spyder II.

You put your probe on your desk or on it's own support to do a black measure.
on E1, there is a small tab on the support to point to screen, it must be close to do the black setup. (and don't forget to re-open it after ;))

Using E1 Beamer, don't forget to do reguler black readings/calibration... Basically before each measures sessions.

--Patrice

Patrice & Team - is there a setting in your software where you tell it whether you are using the EyeOne with the diffuser pointed at the pj, Vs. using it without the diffuser pointed at the screen?

My understanding from talking with Datacolor a while back is that different coefficients or something like that need to be applied to the readings depending on which way the meter is being used (diffuser vs. no diffuser) or else the readings will be inaccurate.

Here's my latest cal with the i1 (pointed at lens with ambient light filter on). I've really tamed the 90-100% readings.

We better make sure this software is designed to read with the diffuser on. See my post just above.

Hello,

I1 is pretty eratic below 20 IRE and need constant calibration of black, also its noise level is quite high...

The way we prepare I1 is probably familiar to many ColorFacts users as it is almost the same way as described there.
This indeed apply to all other probes except the Spyder II.

You put your probe on your desk or on it's own support to do a black measure.
on E1, there is a small tab on the support to point to screen, it must be close to do the black setup. (and don't forget to re-open it after ;))

Using E1 Beamer, don't forget to do reguler black readings/calibration... Basically before each measures sessions.

--Patrice

For those of you using the EyeOne - do yourself a big favor. Get a SpyderTV meter, have this software package updated so that it can "train" on meter to another (as we've been discussing), then then train your SpyderTV to the EyeOne and use the SpyderTV meter instead.

Good bye dark readings, good bye inconsistent readings, good bye frustrating multi-hour calibration sessions, and hello accurate readings down to 5 IRE. YMMV but for me this combo works phenomenally well.

Considering the SpyderTV meter is only a couple hundred dollars this will make things so much easier plus give you great readings down low. This is very important because things tend to fall about at 10 IRE and below so you'll want to take this into consideration as you tweak your grayscale, vs. now you have no idea except by eye what is happening down there.

The only missing piece is the added support for training meters, but the dev team says it is coming.

I first tried the i1 with the ambient filter off but got way off readings from a previous Spyder2 cal. When facing the projector lens I've always made readings with the filter on. When reading the screen the filter is off (haven't tried reading the screen with i1/HCFR). With the ambient light filter on everything went back to normal. I do calibrate the i1 before every session with the ambient filter cap on.

I first tried the i1 with the ambient filter off but got way off readings from a previous Spyder2 cal. When facing the projector lens I've always made readings with the filter on. When reading the screen the filter is off (haven't tried reading the screen with i1/HCFR). With the ambient light filter on everything went back to normal. I do calibrate the i1 before every session with the ambient filter cap on.

Can you please clarify this? When you say you firs tried the i1 with the ambient filter off and got bad readings - were you doing this with the meter pointed into the lens or reading off the screen?

For those of you using the EyeOne - do yourself a big favor. Get a SpyderTV meter, have this software package updated so that it can "train" on meter to another (as we've been discussing), then then train your SpyderTV to the EyeOne and use the SpyderTV meter instead.

Good bye dark readings, good bye inconsistent readings, good bye frustrating multi-hour calibration sessions, and hello accurate readings down to 5 IRE. YMMV but for me this combo works phenomenally well.

Considering the SpyderTV meter is only a couple hundred dollars this will make things so much easier plus give you great readings down low. This is very important because things tend to fall about at 10 IRE and below so you'll want to take this into consideration as you tweak your grayscale, vs. now you have no idea except by eye what is happening down there.

The only missing piece is the added support for training meters, but the dev team says it is coming.I haven't had the problems with the i1 discussed here but that may be due to what I've been measuring: fairly bright no autoiris zoomed down 10% windows with a High Power screen. Even on 0-20% stims I get pretty good, repeatable results that seem to better reflect what I am seeing by eye. I should add that the "black" on the Pearl fully zoomed down without autoiris isn't that black so the i1 has some visible light to measure. HCFR and CalMAN give very similar results, too, at lower stims with the i1 for me.

Despite that, I have heard of pros doing just what Lovingdvd recommends for the same reasons and I'm going to give it a try. Training will definitely be needed if the Spyder2 looks like my DTP94 in comparison to the i1 - quite off but linearly so. Edit: I need to check out whether the ambient head makes a difference here, but results I got either way - without it and with it - look good and were comparable.

Here's a question: Do colorimeters need recalibrating like to the spectrophotometers do? If not, this would be another reason to do the training because by doing so you'd maintain accuracy, once trained, for a longer time in the Spyder2 or the DTP94.

Dan

Can you please clarify this? When you say you firs tried the i1 with the ambient filter off and got bad readings - were you doing this with the meter pointed into the lens or reading off the screen?

Sorry, into the lens. I did it because HCFR has no setting for the diffusor. In the past I have taken readings off the screen with the diffusor off and in the Beamer rig. With Babelcolor I took readings facing the lens and with the diffusor.

Sorry, into the lens. I did it because HCFR has no setting for the diffusor. In the past I have taken readings off the screen with the diffusor off and in the Beamer rig. With Babelcolor I took readings facing the lens and with the diffusor.

My understanding is this: A) one cannot get accurate readings using the i1 pointed directly into the lens unless the diffuser is used, and furthremore - B) the software must specifically provide an option to tell it that you are using the i1 with a diffuser and make adjustments accordingly (as mentioned before, something about applying a different set of coefficients or something like that).

Huh, the end results looked very good. I'll see if I get the same(ish) numbers using Babelcolor tonight. I've calibrated this projector many times, so I'm pretty sensitive to color casts in gray scale.

I'm curious about training the Spyder2. Is there a thread describing this process?

lovingdvd-

Why don't you try it yourself and see what results u get with diffuser on or off?? You've been using it long enough, so it would help others to read your comments on what settings worked best. Why wait until training is implemented?

Huh, the end results looked very good. I'll see if I get the same(ish) numbers using Babelcolor tonight. I've calibrated this projector many times, so I'm pretty sensitive to color casts in gray scale.

I'm curious about training the Spyder2. Is there a thread describing this process?

There is no thread discussing this that I know of so here's a brief overview, at least how things work using ColorFacts. This software discussed here does not yet have this support but I understand from the developers they are adding it :)

First the software would prompt you to take a white, red, green, and blue measurement with the i1. Then tell you to switch meters and repeat the process but use the SpyderTV. Then it asks for a file name, so you could call it something like "SpyderTV trained to i1" and save it off.

Then any time you start up the software you can "load training data" and point to that file. I haven't touched my i1 in over a year yet I can use the SPyderTv with the data trained this way.

Then at any point you can unload the trained data so if you want to take raw measurements with the meter without any offsets / correction you can do so.

Bottom line is this gives you the best of both worlds. You get the color accuracy of the EyeOne, but with the low level light sensitivity, fast readings, and no dark readings with the SpyderTV meter.

BTW, I am not sure if the Spyder2 is a different meter than the SpyderTV. All I know is that Datacolor told me a year or so back to make sure I got the SpyderTV meter.

As I said LovingDVD, it is exactely what we do for our own probe, the v1.2 does contain all required to do this.

It is in "advance" menu, "calibration file"... it allow to either train doing simultaneous measures (pluging the two probes) or manually is you cannot plug both at same time...
It then generates a reference calibration file that you can load when doing a new measure with trained probe.

Only annoyance being that is is so far restricted to our probe (although ingenious guys may find a trick, look at "calibraton" tab in sensor panel ;))

--Patrice ;)

As I said LovingDVD, it is exactely what we do for our own probe, the v1.2 does contain all required to do this.

It is in "advance" menu, "calibration file"... it allow to either train doing simultaneous measures (pluging the two probes) or manually is you cannot plug both at same time...
It then generates a reference calibration file that you can load when doing a new measure with trained probe.

Only annoyance being that is is so far restricted to our probe (although ingenious guys may find a trick, look at "calibraton" tab in sensor panel ;))

--Patrice ;)

I must have completely missed thi Patrice. I thought you had said that you were looking to add support for this train meter type of function into a future version and joked that it wouldn't be ready "tomorrow". Now it seems you are saying it has this functionality available already? Can you please clarify?

Also I'm not understanding how you are describing this function works. Do I choose an option that tells it to train the meter and take measurements with one meter which it records and then switch to another meter which it then records? Or do I take readings myself?

Also what do you mean by being restricted to your probe and how there can be a trick to get around this? As much as I would like to play around with things my calibration time is very limited so I would rather just have instructions for exactly what needs to be done rather than being left to expiriment if possible. Please explain. Thanks.

p.s. Per the above posts can you please also clarify whether when you measure with the EyeOne beamer you are assuming there is a diffuser on the probe or not? As I posted supposedly calibration software needs to take this into consideration when interpreting the values it gets back from the probe, and that the user needs a way to instruct the software whether the diffuser is in use or not.

I was totally wrong about pointing the i1 with the diffusor into the lens. I double checked with Babelcolor (in the correct ambient diffusor mode) and all my readings were too blue. Guess I shouldn't trust my eyes.

So I pointed the i1 (no diffusor) in the beamer stand toward the screen (about 12 in. away) and recalibrated. I still have bad readings below 20% but at least I'm not getting negative Y readings and everything else looks good.

So to sum up: for front projection, use the i1 in LCD mode, no diffusor, in beamer rig on tripod a foot away from your screen. And calibrate the meter on the beamer rig with its little sliding door.

I did find a thread and a huge excel spreadsheet for manually training one meter to another in this thread: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=572098

Good to hear kylek23 - if you can pick up the SpyderTV meter it gets even better because you can train the two (laric makes it sound possible with his software but I am waiting for details to be posted here) and then point the SpyderTV into your lens. This makes the whole process much faster, easier, more accurate and gives reliable readings below 20 IRE.

Is there any reason not to face the DTP 94 towards the projector?

if you can pick up the SpyderTV meter it gets even better because you can train the two and then point the SpyderTV into your lens. This makes the whole process much faster, easier, more accurate and gives reliable readings below 20 IRE.
You would need screen offsets for an accurate calibration though. At this point HCFR doesn't have screen offsets.

kylek23-
Your contrast ratio dropped considerably and 30IRE down looks terrible :eek: ! It looks like it'll be best to read from projector w/ screen offsets.

Sure, but that is not mandatory, unless you have a very specific setup... You can always to this and ajust the final bit facing screen...

BTW, i tend to always calibrate facing screen...

--Patrice

Good to hear kylek23 - if you can pick up the SpyderTV meter it gets even better because you can train the two (laric makes it sound possible with his software but I am waiting for details to be posted here) and then point the SpyderTV into your lens. This makes the whole process much faster, easier, more accurate and gives reliable readings below 20 IRE.

To answer one of your earlier questions, the meter from the Spyder2 and the SpyderTV are the same internally- this is based on my reading of earlier posts in this thread.

Now a question- from everything I have been reading, people have been saying to get the DTP 94 rather than the Spyder probe since it is less accurate below 20 IRE. Now you are saying to use the Spyder probe because it is more accurate than the i1. Is the DTP 94 that much more accurate than the i1, or is just the Spyder probe inaccurate 20 IRE because of some intereference but that the interference can be easily compensated for?

CJ

Am I correct in the following assumptions:

If I am using test patterns from a DVD (GetGray), then I should set my HCFR color reference to SD (Rec 601) and I am really only calibrating for DVD or SD sources. I just have to hope the HD is fairly close but have no way of telling.

If I have an upconverting DVD player then the SD (Rec 601) or HD (Rec 709) decision depends on the player and how it handles the color space (TV may assume 709 since connected via HDMI but not sure what DVD player is doing).

For an HD-DVD player (if I had an HD-DVD test disc) I would definately use HD (rec 709).

Yes, you are correct.

Also, don't be too much annoyed, it doesn't make a HUGE difference (ok, lets start flame war on this now... :D)

--Patrice

Good to hear kylek23 - if you can pick up the SpyderTV meter it gets even better because you can train the two (laric makes it sound possible with his software but I am waiting for details to be posted here) and then point the SpyderTV into your lens. This makes the whole process much faster, easier, more accurate and gives reliable readings below 20 IRE.
The SpyderTV does not track linearly against the EyeOne Pro. You may want to see my previously published research on this under the old userid "Ursa".

Bill

Hi All,

First, thank you very much to richlo for his assistance earlier - spyder is now working properly with my Z3.
The whole area of RGB gamma, offset, and gain settings is new to me on my Z3. I started with "ROne's" Z3 settings with a CC30R filter, which was giving me pretty good results. Now, I have left the CC30R in place, and just did a baseline on where things are. I could see some problems with blue level (much too low), so I adjusted contrast down, and increased blue a little. I now have it a little too high in the mid-range, and was wondering how I now go about tweaking the remainder?

Note that I did also run some primaries, and I cannot seem to get blue/red any closer to HD reference (they are close, but not perfect), and green is quite a bit out - I have tried changing many settings on my Z3 but cannot really seem to improve from where they are. I would like to leave the CC30R in place during my calibration, as I know it has benefits (based on what the experts say anyway!).

So, how do I fix the low RED level in my 30 to 60 IRE range without having it jump up at the upper IRE levels? Also, how do I drop down the blue betweek 40 and 80 IRE?
I'm thinking that if I could get those sorted out, I could be in pretty good shape fo more final general level tweaking.

Thanks in advance,
-rf

Now a question- from everything I have been reading, people have been saying to get the DTP 94 rather than the Spyder probe since it is less accurate below 20 IRE. Now you are saying to use the Spyder probe because it is more accurate than the i1. Is the DTP 94 that much more accurate than the i1, or is just the Spyder probe inaccurate 20 IRE because of some intereference but that the interference can be easily compensated for?

CJI think that lovingdvd is reffering to the i1 PRO spectroradiometer, as it is not very goodfor low level measurements as I understand it.

From worst to best on LOW LEVEL READINGS (of the supported "3rd party" meters):

Eye-One pro
Spyder2
DTP-94
Eye-One display

// Lyckman

So, how do I fix the low RED level in my 30 to 60 IRE range without having it jump up at the upper IRE levels? Also, how do I drop down the blue betweek 40 and 80 IRE?
I'm thinking that if I could get those sorted out, I could be in pretty good shape fo more final general level tweaking.

Thanks in advance,
-rf

Sometimes you can do this by using an individual color's gamma. For instance if you have the way to change gamma on just Red alone, try playing with that a bit up or down and see if it helps.

If I am using test patterns from a DVD (GetGray), then I should set my HCFR color reference to SD (Rec 601) and I am really only calibrating for DVD or SD sources. I just have to hope the HD is fairly close but have no way of telling.

If I have an upconverting DVD player then the SD (Rec 601) or HD (Rec 709) decision depends on the player and how it handles the color space (TV may assume 709 since connected via HDMI but not sure what DVD player is doing).

For an HD-DVD player (if I had an HD-DVD test disc) I would definately use HD (rec 709).
[QUOTE]Report Post

right, and my understanding is as soon as someone is willing to author an HD DVD disk, we'll then have the ability to calibrate rec 709

Hi All,

First, thank you very much to richlo for his assistance earlier -
Thanks in advance,
-rf

Your very welcome -

You may want to adjust your contrast and brightness..Right now - it seems that your using too little brightness (dark IRE) and too much contrast (bright IRE). If you want try your user CONTRAST and Brightness, reduce Contrast a click or two and increase brightness a click or two - do nothing else to your cut/drives(or whatever the parameters are called to adjust your greyscale)..rerun and see what you come up with. To me it looks like also tha BLUE DRIVE/CONTRAST is you limiting color (maybe not - take my advice lightly)- using maybe Too much of it..just remember when you increase and decrease your user contrast and brightness - it effect to certain degree your greyscale - you see what I mean once you make a change..be certain to write your settings that got you close and then play around and try to understand how your setting effect one another.

Using the Display Measurement Icon, highlighting the specific IRE and you running continuos , look at how your reducing or increasing of a color effect one another. On my Mits, increasing blue, reduces red/Green, I know that Red is my limiting color - so I never try to adjust that because it clips automatically when increasing, so Increasing Green to a certain degree, then Increasing blue, then reducing green to bring Red into play - well - you see what I mean - it teeter totter..

right, and my understanding is as soon as someone is willing to author an HD DVD disk, we'll then have the ability to calibrate rec 709
See this thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=570937) . dr1394 has created many HD DVD patterns including grayscale and primary/secondary colors. Just download and burn!

Ok, I played around with this software and my Spyder2 sensor. It told me things were apparently way off from what they should be. I made some adjustments to the user accessible menu, couldn't seem to make a change to the readings that really improved them. I used color bars, and RGB filters and seem to have things better tuned as far as brightness, contrast, color and tint. I expect that there are enough controls in the service menu to get a "correct" picture according to the sensor and this program. My question, is it worth the risks, and time to make the adjustments? How far off are these readings really? If I already find the picture to look very good (HD programs I record are quite stunning) is it that likely that I am going to see a dramatic improvement from a technically perfect image?

I am driving my LCD TV with a computer, and use the computer for watching video, pictures, and general stuff.

My question, is it worth the risks, and time to make the adjustments? How far off are these readings really?
Absolutely worth every minute to get an ACCURATE picture. Your grayscale is WAY off. Tons of blue, lacking red as well. Your gamma isn't too bad, just needs some adjustment. Make sure to have the baffle "on" the Spyder2 when taking measures. Write down original settings and you'll have nothing to worry about.

If I already find the picture to look very good (HD programs I record are quite stunning) is it that likely that I am going to see a dramatic improvement from a technically perfect image?
Picture might be great in terms of detail but that's only half of the equation. In your case, I'd say you would see great improvement. Once you see accurate colors the picture will be much better, you'll see what you were missing ;) .

Thanks lovingdvd, and thank you again for all your help richlo.

I will try the changes suggested after dark (my room is pretty well blacked-out, but I like to be certain...) - hopefully I can get some nice results with the brightness/contrast changes suggested etc..

Does my overall "gamma" look ok? - I read that it should be 2.2, but to be honest, I have no idea what that means - is it an overall "gamma" setting on my projector that it needed to increase this or something along those lines? or does it just come into line when I get my grayscale sorted out?

I'm assuming that it's just not possible to bring the primaries into the 709 triangle? I tried many settings, but got nowhere (especially on green), and would prefer to steer clear of the service menu on my Z3)

Kind Regards,
-rf

Absolutely worth every minute to get an ACCURATE picture. Your grayscale is WAY off. Tons of blue, lacking red as well. Your gamma isn't too bad, just needs some adjustment. Make sure to have the baffle "on" the Spyder2 when taking measures. Write down original settings and you'll have nothing to worry about.


Picture might be great in terms of detail but that's only half of the equation. In your case, I'd say you would see great improvement. Once you see accurate colors the picture will be much better, you'll see what you were missing ;) .

Hmmm, well, guess I'll have to go find the process for getting to the service menu, and out of it as well.

Laric,

I do not recall seeing an answer to my last question I posted to you a few days ago here so I just wanted to follow up to make sure you saw it. Can you please outline the step by step procedure I can follow to train my SpyderTV to the EyeOne beamer?

I am confused because one day I thought you posted you'd look to add that feature and the next day posted that the feature is already there if you know the trick to use it (which I don't).

Also can you please clarify for those pointing the EyeOne into the pj using a diffuser if your software is taking the diffuser's use into account. According to Gregtag this must be done for good results. And I am not sure if your software includes a switch for the user to tell it whether it is using the EyeOne with vs. without the diffuser... ? Thanks!

Lovingdvd,
See attached image. I think thats the place laric is talking about. Take measurement with the eye-one. Take corresponding measurements with the spyderII. Offset the coordinates accordingly.

That would work, right?


- NO! (See below)


// Lyckman

Lovingdvd,
See attached image. I think thats the place laric is talking about. Take measurement with the eye-one. Take corresponding measurements with the spyderII. Offset the coordinates accordingly.

That would work, right?

// Lyckman

Thanks. What do you mean by "offset the coordinates accordingly" exactly? That screen shot shows xyz but not sure how that relates to offsets.

Hi LovingDvd

I answer for Laric. Now, you "could" do meter training, but it's really painful, and you have quite hard maths to do by hand. Lyckman is wrong, it is not the good screen for that. The right one to perform translation is the first tab, with the calibration matrix. It shows a 3x3 transformation matrix which is always the identity matrix. If you can compute this matrix and enter it, that's meter training. So, if your time is short, forget it.

Anyway, the meter training feature is now is beta version. I implemented it in a very generic way. You could use is for meter training, but also for screen offset handling, with one or two meters... everything is possible.

It will be present in next release, soon (no date present yet, I can only say "soon" ;) ).

Regards
Georges

Thanks Georges... ;)

LovingDVD, sorry for being misleading... My point was to say "look it is almost there as we allready do it for or probe..." (and you can allready use it if you can do the math).

Anyway, it will be there in v1.21 ;)

--Patrice

Hi LovingDvd

I answer for Laric. Now, you "could" do meter training, but it's really painful, and you have quite hard maths to do by hand. Lyckman is wrong, it is not the good screen for that. The right one to perform translation is the first tab, with the calibration matrix. It shows a 3x3 transformation matrix which is always the identity matrix. If you can compute this matrix and enter it, that's meter training. So, if your time is short, forget it.

Anyway, the meter training feature is now is beta version. I implemented it in a very generic way. You could use is for meter training, but also for screen offset handling, with one or two meters... everything is possible.

It will be present in next release, soon (no date present yet, I can only say "soon" ;) ).

Regards
Georges

Excellent! Thanks for the good news. Am I right to assume it will allow you to save the trained data off to a file so it can be easily reloaded in future calibration sessions? Also will it be intuitive in that it will just tell me what to do ("insert meter one, take a white reading, now take a red reading" etc ) or will I need to manually input numbers? The simpler the better of course!

Thanks Georges... ;)

LovingDVD, sorry for being misleading... My point was to say "look it is almost there as we allready do it for or probe..." (and you can allready use it if you can do the math).

Anyway, it will be there in v1.21 ;)

--Patrice

Thanks Patrice. One remaining question for clarification please - does your software take into account whether the EyeOne is being used with the diffuser or not? My understanding from Gregtag is that this must be done because different coefficients are used and the meter must be talked to differently or have results interpreted differently or something like that. Not sure of the details - just know that this is required.

Are you talking of the EyeOne beamer or Display ?
AFAIK, the EyeOne have no capability (out of the box) to face the projector (but I may miss your point)

What I can say is that next version will include some specifics for Display probes...

--Patrice

Are you talking of the EyeOne beamer or Display ?
AFAIK, the EyeOne have no capability (out of the box) to face the projector (but I may miss your point)

What I can say is that next version will include some specifics for Display probes...

--Patrice

Thank you and yes I stand corrected. It is a different probe as the Eyeone beamer cannot be used with a diffuser at least I don't think so. It gets confusing because they are all called EyeOne something-or-other. At any rate you likely are already aware of this but just in case I wanted to make sure you know that you need an option for the user to tell your software whether they are using the diffuser or not for probes that support it.

Yes, that is why the EyeOne Beamer (usual probe, facing screen) and the EyeOne Display (that could be use both facing screen or bulb (using a diffuser)) will now have separate settings.

--Patrice

Yes, that is why the EyeOne Beamer (usual probe, facing screen) and the EyeOne Display (that could be use both facing screen or bulb (using a diffuser)) will now have separate settings.

--Patrice

Excellent! Keep up the great job and I look forward to hearing about the availability of the new version so I can get started and provide feedback.

just got done doing another calibration using spyder probe set to 2.2 for gamma. as far as i can tell everything looks good my question is what or how do you use the logarithmic mode on the gamma chart? i looked at it and my lines were up and down and spread apart so i worked at it until my lines are relatively flat is this correct? my gamma is approx 2.22 :D

Yes, you should try to have it flat... We think this log view is way better than the classical one (Seems WSR too :D)

--Patrice

Hey Laric, any news on 1.21??

Thanks pal & keep up the great work!!!!
Carmine.

Hey Laric, any news on 1.21??

Thanks pal & keep up the great work!!!!
Carmine.

read post 1177..soon but no date set

LOL. sorry rich i totally did not even see that!

Thanks pal.
Carmine

We hope it'll be by end of this week, we tend to add more than planned so it may be 1.3 :D :D :D

Seriously, it'll be only v1.21 and very soon.

--Patrice

It is a different probe as the Eyeone beamer cannot be used with a diffuser at least I don't think so.
The retail versions of the EyeOne Pro include a diffuser for ambient light measurements. This is a much more accurate way to take measurements with the i1 Pro for Front Projectors as a way to overcome many of the weaknesses of the meter in reflective mode, as you've pointed out. :)

Finally I finish the 60 pages reading. :)

First of all, I would like to congratulate all the people who works on this great software. Thank you.

I started to search for a probe to buy (Optix XR, as you sad that it is better than Spyder2 - faster and better low IRE readings) to start to work on my system calibration (Oppo971/SP4805).

Is it possible to post some photos showing how do you fix your probe on a tripod and how is its placement to calibrate front projectors?

[]'s

Filipe Rangel.

Felipe -

I dont have a picture but for the Optix-xr(DTP-94), the easy way to mount it to a tripod is to get a small sunction cup, cut the lip on the back so to make it flat, superglue the suntion cup to the probe to the back of the probe, then superglue a hex nut in the spot where you cut the back lip, and thats pretty much it, screw it on to the tripod fitting.

For the spyder its even easier, superglue a hex nut to the back of it..and thats it..this cant be done to the DTP94 unfortunately.

Yes, you should try to have it flat... We think this log view is way better than the classical one (Seems WSR too :D)

--Patrice

Very interesting laric. Can someone explain more about the various gamma plotting options in this software. How does this compare to the default gamma curve that Colorfacts generates for me after running a grayscale calibration? If the gamma curve CF shows me even accurate?

Very interesting laric. Can someone explain more about the various gamma plotting options in this software. How does this compare to the default gamma curve that Colorfacts generates for me after running a grayscale calibration? If the gamma curve CF shows me even accurate?

Have you even tried the software yet to compare them? And if not, why not?
Because it sure seems like about 75% or more of your questions could be answered by yourself if you did.

Have you even tried the software yet to compare them? And if not, why not?
Because it sure seems like about 75% or more of your questions could be answered by yourself if you did.
Exactly what I said a few posts ago! He insists on waiting for the next release to try it :rolleyes: . Only difference is gonna be the gamma options, maybe a few other small things per laric. It's FREE!! download and try it, what gives...?!

His time seems more valuable than the developers.... at least to him :D

:cool:

Exactly what I said a few posts ago! He insists on waiting for the next release to try it :rolleyes: . Only difference is gonna be the gamma options, maybe a few other small things per laric. It's FREE!! download and try it, what gives...?!

If you were following this thread closely you would see that "what gives" is that this software does not yet support the ability to train one meter to another. Without this functionality I have no way to compare the results with this software to Colorfacts, nor will I ever go back to using the EyeOne or Spyder meters by themselves (without "training") for reasons I posted earlier.

His time seems more valuable than the developers.... at least to him :D

:cool:

Your post is offensive and frankly out of line. I've already invested a great deal of my time to read through 40 pages of posts and interact with the developers here. I'm sure at least THEY appreciate this.

I do not NEED this free software. I have invested thousands of dollars for Colorfacts and it does a great job and everything I need. I am here because I am a big contributor on AVS and I support the effort of Patrice and his team, and I believe that with input from the community their software can do even more which we will all benefit from.

Once they implement the train meter function I planned to spend dozens of hours making direct comparisons with Colorfacts and sharing this information for everyone's benefit, and providing continual feedback to the team. But if in return for all my time and effort I am going to be excused of not respecting the developers time, I will need to rethink my contributions.

I've already invested a great deal of my time to read through 40 pages of posts and interact with the developers here..
WOW, the time to read 40 pages, such a sacrifice........
In way less time than that took, you could have installed it and tried it out.



I do not NEED this free software. I have invested thousands of dollars for Colorfacts and it does a great job and everything I need. I am here because I am a big contributor on AVS and I support the effort of Patrice and his team, and I believe that with input from the community their software can do even more which we will all benefit from.

What support have you given them, other than telling them what you want? And without even trying it first! You don't even have any practical first hand knowledge of what it does and how it works what it really can or can not do, and yet you are asking for additions to it.

Please guys, take it off line. This is a great thread. Let's not get it off track. Thanks.

Please guys, take it off line. This is a great thread. Let's not get is off track. Thanks.

boy do I agree on this... :eek:

If you were following this thread closely you would see that "what gives" is that this software does not yet support the ability to train one meter to another.
I follow it without missing a post :) . I meant no offense but questions like

"Can someone explain more about the various gamma plotting options in this software. How does this compare to the default gamma curve that Colorfacts generates for me after running a grayscale calibration? is there a setting in your software where you tell it whether you are using the EyeOne with the diffuser pointed at the pj, Vs. using it without the diffuser pointed at the screen?"

can easily be answered by looking through the program if you didn't find the answers on the thread.

I have no way to compare the results with this software to Colorfacts, nor will I ever go back to using the EyeOne or Spyder meters by themselves (without "training") for reasons I posted earlier.
You don't have to. Just import the "raw" data manually and see if you find the differences you're looking for. ;)

I do not NEED this free software.
Hmmm...OK... :cool:

Now back to regular broadcast :D !

Finally I finish the 60 pages reading. :)

First of all, I would like to congratulate all the people who works on this great software. Thank you.

I started to search for a probe to buy (Optix XR, as you sad that it is better than Spyder2 - faster and better low IRE readings) to start to work on my system calibration (Oppo971/SP4805).

Is it possible to post some photos showing how do you fix your probe on a tripod and how is its placement to calibrate front projectors?

[]'s

Filipe Rangel.

Like Richlo mentioned or view this for a guide - http://www.colorvision.com/downloads/manuals/tripod_adapter_howto_FINAL.pdf

Like Richlo mentioned or view this for a guide - http://www.colorvision.com/downloads/manuals/tripod_adapter_howto_FINAL.pdf

I find that the tripod adapter does not make a good strudy connection and I've had it almost fall off the mount a couple of times. So what I do now is attach it as shown in the pdf, but then I put a small piece of painters tape around the tripod mount and meter itself to hold it firmly in place. Works like a charm now.

Hi All,

Thanks to the advice so far, I have improved things by increasing brightness and backing off contrast. I'm now trying to boost the low to mid IRE red, and maybe smooth out the mid-IRE range blue, as I am led to believe that green is v.difficult to control. What exactly to the red offset, red gain, and red gamma controls in the Z3 menu do, or where should I be looking to improve things?

Thanks again
-rf

Red offset = low end (brightness)
Red gain = high end (contrast)
Red gamma by the sound of it should control the balance between dark/contrast detail, same as overall grayscale gamma.

You should look in the Sanyo thread for more info though.

Help me Baby Jesus, Help me Tom Cruise! (Ricky Bobby)

OK Guys, here's where I am at. I received my MonocoOPTIX XR, loaded the software that came with it, attached the device ran quick check of the Monoco software to ensure the meter is working fine.

Loaded the HCFR software, selected new document, selected DTP-94 as my meter. Anything I try to do from that point with HCFR involving the meter causes HCFR to freeze. Check sensor internal temperature, calibrate sensor internal offsets causes the program to freeze. Doing any of the "measure" tasks in the software results in a black screen on my laptop which never recovers. I have to kill HCFR in task manager and start over. I copied the .dll file over into the HCFR directory (it will let you know when you don't have it copied over), unistalled and reinstalled the meter, Monoco software and the HCFR software.

I have to be doing something wrong in HCFR as the meter works perfectly with the MonocoOPTIX software.

Anyone have any suggestions?

Make sure the monaco software is not running in the background, maybe could cause troubles. Have you tried uninstalling the monaco software but keeping the .dll in HCFR directory?

No, I'll give that a shot right now....

Uninstalling the Monaco software also removes the meter driver. I tried searching the install CD just for the meter driver, but it appears to be part of the software package install. I had to reinstall it to get the meter back.

Looks like someone on the French site had the same problem as me but Babelfish isn't doing me any favors on the translation:

cerealk wrote:
Hello,

Not one should not change the pilots it is necessary to keep those of origins and to add a DLL in the repertory of colorimeter HCFR XdsIII.dll.

A council, with the case or, that will not make evil and will avoid certain problems...: when you lances the software you choose your probe in made mitre DTP-94: "to gauge the offsets interns of the sonde"(pour that poses your probe on a table... it must be in the complete black)

Amuse well



hello with you.

I added the DLL xds in the repertoire hcfr, good that does not plant more...
but the screen remains black
and it occurs anything...
I also made gauge the offests in... probe, it does anything...
which catch of tete

good there I do not see
if you have an idea

Then someone responded with:

George G wrote:
Robin Hello

It was already said to you I believe: one should not use the pilots of Argyllcms. The fact that they are installed prevent operation with XdsIII.dll. You thus owe to désinstaller the pilots version Argyllcms, it is all.

With soon
George


George hello

I very reinstalled on my portable, and all functions
thank you with you and all the hcfr team


I just can't make heads or tails of what he told him to do......

adam -

Here is the .DLL file by itself...post 884

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9219270&&#post9219270

Yeah, I got the .dll. It was still in the HCFR folder after I unistalled the Monaco software. However, the driver for the meter is somehow tied to the Monaco software. As soon as I uninstalled it my laptop would not recognize the meter.

OK, I was able to locate the .inf file and associated files while I had the Monaco software loaded. Copied all the files, uninstalled Monaco, placed all the driver files back in their proper locations, got the laptop happy with the DTP94 without the Monaco software and I still have the same situation. HCFR is still freezing when I try to do anything with the DTP94. BTW, my black screen was being caused by me having the "blank screen" checked under Generator. So the screen no longer goes black when I try to take a reading but the software still vapor locks. My laptop is brand new, one day old, and is running Win XP Media Center 2005.

all you should need is the dll. does the monaco software run on the laptop? Have you done the windows update yet on your new laptop?

Best,
jeff

Do the windows update...you might need alot of them.hahhah..if not..try ANOTHER usb port see if that helps...

greeno, the computer doesn't recognize the DTP94 without the xrusb.inf and associated files. At least mine doesn't. Look in your Windows/inf folder and see this file is in there.

I spent the last few hours downloading all 29 of the Windows updates my laptop required. No change, HFCR locks up and I have to kill it manually. Tried the meter on all 4 usb ports on the laptop as well....

Tried everything on my home PC as well. I get the same thing.

Here are the minimum files I have found that will allow Windows to recognize the DTP94 meter:

XrUSB.inf and XrUSB.PNF located in the Windows/inf folder and XrUSB.SYS located in the Windows/System32/Drivers folder.

On my home PC I did not install the Monaco software, but I did have to copy over these driver files as my home PC would not recognize the DTP-94 meter without them.

This is getting frustrating. I think my answer is posted right on the French forum as I posted earlier, but Babelfish did a terrible job translating.

I have a recently purchased a DTP94, have installed HCFR (1.1.2) in my laptop and have burned the HCFR DVD.
I have used the DTP94 to "profile" a couple of computer displays and the thing worked flawlessly. However, with HCFR, as soon as I try to measure anything from the main window (primaries/gray scale/contrast) or even calibrate sensor' offsets, the application crashes. HCFR seemed to work well with the simulated sensor, though.
I have included the Optics .dll file and HCFR seems to identify it w/o problems.
I have checked LCD, DTP94, DVD manual, etc.
I have re-installed HCFR (both versions) a couple of times to no avail.
Am I missing something obvious?
Thanks for your help.

Apparently I'm not the only one who has/had this problem.

This is getting frustrating. I think my answer is posted right on the French forum as I posted earlier, but Babelfish did a terrible job translating.
It is not, although Babelfish is crap, the issue this french guy had was related to Agylcms drivers installed, he did not use the regular DTP94 drivers... hence the issue as we only support official ones.

As for your very problem, I can't answer, I don't own a DTP94... But will report them, may be someone in team have an idea. To my knowledge it is usually straightforward, but you how computers can be sometimes... ;)

--Patrice

Thanks Patrice. I also have a Spyder2 on the way, but I ordered the DTP94 as everyone was reporting how much better of a meter it is. BTW, tried running HCFR in W2K compatibility mode and it does the same thing with the DTP94.

DTP94 is better than S2 at low IRE readings, which is important!

I'm with ya HDholic! The DTP94 works PERFECT with the Monaco software but it just vapor locks HCFR.

Are you currently using the DTP94? Did you install the Monaco software for yours? Windows won't recognize the DTP94 without the driver software, you need more that just the .dll file. Any help would be appreciated.

What pointers can you give me on using the HCFR/Spyder combo and FP CRT (VPH-G70)

I started to tweak the primaries on the PJ to the point I can see the color shift. The shift was not detectable in the CIE chart?

I've searched this thread but could not find a comprehensive post on FP CRT. Anyone out there with first hand experience? Anyone have an example *.chc file that would show me the correct software settings?

Thank you HDholic. I now have my tracking almost uniform - just the mid-level blue to sort out now, but I am already in much better shape thanks to your info.

Cheers,
-rf

OK, I give up!! Last resort, I loaded everything up on my work laptop, POS Dell 610, three years old, running W2K. DTP94 works perfect! Problem seems to be with XP (image that!). I tried a desktop running XP Home (no service pack 2) and my new laptop running XP Media Center 2005 (fully updated as of today). Both computers would lock HCFR. My old crappy Dell work laptop works great. Problem is I can't leave it on the work laptop as they keylog everything, I'm probably already fired!!!!

Someone has to have this meter running on XP... "Shake and Bake!!"

BTW, the DTP94 shows under Unplug or Eject Hardware in the taskbar on the new laptop and home PC (not working) but does not show on the old Dell. I have no idea if this info is helpful or not, just providing it just in case.

Muy raro amigo :confused: !

HCFR is built to run on XP so that's strange. I run it on XP Pro and XP Home no problem, but again I DON'T have a DTP94 personally so can't say for sure.

Realy sorry Adam, but I cannot help, we have many users with DTP94 on XP with no issues at all...

--Patrice

A friend of mine had the exact same problem. On two different computers. The monaco software worked but not HCFR. Anyway, we tried almost anything to solve it, and finally I told him to download the toolcrib application from xrite to check if the sensor would work using that application:

http://www.xrite.com/product_overview.aspx?Industry=4&Segment=6&ID=489&Action=Support&SoftwareID=354

It did.. And after some investigation he found that the XdsIII.dll file delivered with toolcrib was of an other size and version than the one delivered with the monaco optix software. He tried to use the toolcrib version of the dll, and belive it or not. It worked like a charm! :)

// Lyckman

I have an XP Home right now..no problems running DTP94 on my end with the Monoaco software loaded....

Whats version of .DLL file are you using..mine is 1.0.0.51

Use my .DLL file that I linked above (or page before) and replace it with yours..see if that helps..

Hi all. Need some help with a source question to use with this software. The only disc I have at the moment with 0 to 100 IRE is the older VE disc. After searching I'm not clear if I should be setting up with the 7.5 pedestal or not before taking my measurements (with a SpyderTV probe)

Thanks in advance for your help.

Use 0IRE.

Lyckman!!!! Your the MAN!!! Problem solved!!!!

For ANYONE having trouble with this meter locking the HCFR software use the .dll I have attached. It is version 1.2.0.0 and completely solved my lockup issues with the DTP94!


A friend of mine had the exact same problem. On two different computers. The monaco software worked but not HCFR. Anyway, we tried almost anything to solve it, and finally I told him to download the toolcrib application from xrite to check if the sensor would work using that application:

http://www.xrite.com/product_overview.aspx?Industry=4&Segment=6&ID=489&Action=Support&SoftwareID=354

It did.. And after some investigation he found that the XdsIII.dll file delivered with toolcrib was of an other size and version than the one delivered with the monaco optix software. He tried to use the toolcrib version of the dll, and belive it or not. It worked like a charm! :)

// Lyckman

Have fun calibrating now :D ! Return the S2 while you're at it...!!

That's great news! :)
Have a ball calibrating your set(s).... ;)

// Lyckman

That's a really odd issue. I wonder if the dll that came with the optix was old. Did you get the optix XR? I just checked my XdsIII.dll is version 1.0.0.51. Must be some XP wierdness.

Glad the problem's solved ;-)

jeff

I ordered mine from normancamera off eBay. Just got it yesterday MonacoOPTIX XR. My .dll file was version 1.0.0.51 as well off the disk. The one in the x-rite tools is MUCH newer at 1.2.0.0. I'm just glad Lyckman had already worked through this problem. Should be smooth sailing for everyone with the DTP94 regardless of OS from now on...

I don't think it is xp-related.

I'm using the older dll, never had problems. On two different XP-installations. One XP Pro (EN), and one XP Home (Swedish). The latter with sp2 installed. Don't know which sp on the pro-install.... wierd :)

// Lyckman

Hello all,

I'm a newby trying to learn how to calibrate my PJ with HCFR and a Spyder2. I'm still reading through all the documentation and it's still a bit confusing, but I'll get there eventually.

One thing I can't figure out is how or where the projector configuration files come into play. I did my first calibration last night, but the software never asked for any input as to what projector I was using. I have a Panny AE700 which I did see in the stack of configuration files.

Could someone please explain how the configuration files are incorporated into the calibration process?

Thanks very much,
Brian

BrianRC-

The configuration files are for the DIY probe only. You don't need them, just set the preferences to LCD, NTSC or HDTV and 16-235 and you're all set. Make sure to have the filter "on" the Spyder2.

Thanks HD.

Here's my first attempt with HCFR and the Optix probe.

Sony 60A2000
Oppo DV-981HD (HDMI)
DTP-94
GetGrey

Only using the Sony User Menu. Not brave enough for the Service Menu yet.

Current Settings.

Picture menu:

Picture Mode: Custom
Advanced Iris: Auto 2
Picture: 90
Brightness: 52
Color: 55
Hue: 0
Color Temp: Warm 2
Sharpness: 30
Noise Reduction: Off

Advanced Settings:

Gamma: Low
All others: Off

White Balance:

R-Gain: 0
G-Gain: -1
B-Gain: 0
R-Bias: 3
G-Bias: 1
B-Bias: 3

Other

Power Savings: On

Oppo Setup Menu:

Contrast: 1
All others: 0

I tried bringing down the 0IRE Blue, but it messed everything else up too much. Also, Luminance isn't lining up. Any suggestions?

Atlonstein

You dont need service menu parameters since it seems your user menu has the appropriate parameters to adjust

btw..I have no suggestions..forget 0IRE, you will never get a decent reading (if anything, you can run a continuos reading of 0IRE or setup the DTP94 for LONGER READINGS ON THE LOWED)..stay put..your in good shape..right now, because there is a new version of HCFR, I wouldnt worry about your gamma so much for now

btw..REALLY GOOD JOB

I am new to all this and have three questions:

1. Is there some place I can properly read up all the basics I need to know in order to get started with calibrating properly?

2. Is the Spyder2 accurate and now working properly with the HCFR?

3. Are the results as good as the ones you would get if a dealer did the job?

Is there some place I can properly read up all the basics I need to know in order to get started with calibrating properly?
1) Adjust brightness/contrast
2) Adjust color/tint
3) Perform grayscale, primary/secondary colors reading (HCFR)
4) Adjust primary/secondary colors if display/projector has controls to do so. Use CIE chart to see progress (of course you need to re-measure P/S colors first).
5) Adjust gamma if needed to 2.2.
6) Calibrate grayscale, adjusting R/B offset/cut (brightness) and gain/drive (contrast) as close as possible to coordinates of x=0.3127, y=0.3290 (D65). Use Green as your reference, adjust only if necessary. Keep an eye on Delta E as you want it under 4, as close as possible to 0.
7) Recheck step 1, 2 and gamma.



Is the Spyder2 accurate and now working properly with the HCFR?
It's fairly accurate from 30IRE up. DTP94 or Display2 are better on low end.


Are the results as good as the ones you would get if a dealer did the job?
With good tools, knowledge on how/what to calibrate and patience ;) you'll get great results. On top of that, you'll always have tools to calibrate whatever, whenever you want for FREE!! Did I mention it can be fun...?! :D



*Laric - You should post a FAQ or basic HOW TO to avoid same questions from new users that are coming in :) .

Shouldn't grayscale be calibrated prior to calibrating the primaries and secondaries?

That is probably a long debate ;) I personaly don't think so... assuming you can change settings on Gammut witch is pretty rare at the moment...

Side note, we will roll out v1.21 later today...

--Patrice

Atlonstein

You dont need service menu parameters since it seems your user menu has the appropriate parameters to adjust

btw..I have no suggestions..forget 0IRE, you will never get a decent reading (if anything, you can run a continuos reading of 0IRE or setup the DTP94 for LONGER READINGS ON THE LOWED)..stay put..your in good shape..right now, because there is a new version of HCFR, I wouldnt worry about your gamma so much for now

btw..REALLY GOOD JOB

Thanks. :)

Sorry, is it true that the SpyderTV is a different hardware model than the Spyder2 and in fact the SpyderTV is better than the Spyder2?

Or is the Spyder2 the best hardware from Colorvision there is?

Shouldn't grayscale be calibrated prior to calibrating the primaries and secondaries?
Grayscale has no effect on P/S color coordinates. If I'm wrong then someone please correct me.

HT-Naimee-
They are all the same hardware.

Side note, we will roll out v1.21 later today...

--Patrice

Great news! Please post a link when its available. Also is it fairly intuitive where to find the new train meter functionality and how to use it?

Hope I'm not stealing thunder, but v1.21 is now available. woohoo!

http://www.homecinema-fr.com/ColorHCFR/index_en.php

Great news! Please post a link when its available. Also is it fairly intuitive where to find the new train meter functionality and how to use it?

I would not say that :cool:
v 1.21 release has been done for bug fix and new gamma calculation options.
Probe calibration and screen offset were expected for 1.3 release. We have included a preliminary (but fully functional) version of these methods, but they are not as user friendly as we expect to make them in 1.3 release.
Of course we will give here a description of how to use them so that you'll be able to test ;) .

Hello,

ColorHCFR v1.21 is now available. It is essentially a bug fix release.

Few weeks after v1.2 it includes a few bugs corrections (and hopefully don't add new ones ;)), new calibration files for our probe as well as two new features.

- Updated and improved Gamma Calculation Methods
- New menu entry « Adjust XYZ coordinates » in « Advanced » menu.

See posts below to have more details on those new things.
Build in help file did not include those details, so keep track on the posts until help is updated.

You can get the v1.21 from our web site : http://www.homecinema-fr.com/colorimetre/index_en.php
or, if you allready use v1.2, you can download the new version using the "Advanced" menu, "Updates" --> "Download updated software".

I'd like to thanks all team member, especially Michel, Ki and Georges that spend most of the years' end break doing maths and graphs (for nothing... well, just kidding :))
Also special thanks to our AVS beta testers ;)

v1.21 takes longer than we expect, but that's life ;)
We are now back on track for v1.3, many news there, we will update you when appropriate.

Note : Now we have proper Eyeone Display probe, we have seen some troubles both in v1.2 and v1.21... it is very likely a fix release will be out soon for Display users ;)

Happy New 2007 year
--ColorHCFR Team

Gamma Calculation Methods

To have a properly calibrated projector it is required to achieve the best luminance ratio between different parts of displayed picture.

This very characteristic is commonly reduced to a numeric value: Gamma.
The higher Gamma is (above 2.22) the more contrasted image you'll get but you may then have poor black level in dark scenes.
Lowering the Gamma (below 2.22) allows an increase in black details, but picture can then be too bright.

This ends by a compromise in settings that calibrator should achieve, it depends on projection conditions (room, lights...) as well as screen, source and, obviously, projector characteristics.

2.22 Gamma is usually the best compromise and generally admitted as reference value.

The default Gamma computing method we use (second option below) is the generally admitted one (ColorFacts, ICC generation softwares, etc... see references below).

Anyway, there are many passionate debates on the "best" way to compute Gamma.
That is why we introduce different scheme in v1.21. These options are for the one wanting to go a bit further or unsatisfied by default settings. We can later on pursue that very debate, but so far we think it is not required to go more in depth to be able to calibrate a projector.

1) Display gamma

The gamma is compute in light to human eyes perception.
After approximation brightness (L) is expressed according to the signal (V) using the equation:
[1] L = V^gamma

Standards recommend to us a 2.5 Gamma target (2.45 after math) in this mode.

2) Display Gamma with Black Compensation (Default)

In practice one can never achieve an absolute black and to properly setup a projector (or screen) it is necessary to take in account of the black you can really obtain.

This is usually done by computing Gamma after removing the "absolute" black from every measure.

3) Camera Gamma (Standard Offset)

To have an accurate reproduction, some interpretations say that you must apply a symmetrical treatment to the encoding one. The reference equation being: [2] Y = ((V+offset)/(1+offset))^gamma

The "offset" is a parameter use at black encoding stage (and reproduction using this method). It's value is 0.099 on all video standard. (0.055 in sRGB)

4) Optimized (Regression)

This calculation method is based on the fact absolute black recorded by camera is the absolute black projector can produce.
But offset in standard is roughly for 200:1 contrast ratio, a lot lower than current ration projector can achieve.
The optimized method tries to find the Offset AND Gamma parameters that best match the measures, black included.

Pictures as contrasted as in method 2 can be achieved using this method with even a better black details level.
But the compute method -- and so the resulting projector settings -- are more dependant of proper and accurate low level probes readings.

References:
[Poynton] Gamma FAQ (http://www.poynton.com/PDFs/GammaFAQ.pdf)
(Chapters 4 - what is lightness, and 6 - what is gamma correction)
[Pascale] A review of RGB color spaces (http://www.babelcolor.com/download/A%20review%20of%20RGB%20color%20spaces.pdf)
(Paragraph 2.1.6 gamma and Table 5 definition of different RGB color spaces)
[sRGB] A standard default color space for the Internet (http://www.w3.org/Graphics/Color/sRGB)
(Paragraph "Gamma and the desired CRT gamma of 2.2")

--ColorHCFR Team

New menu entry « Adjust XYZ coordinates » in « Advanced » menu.

This entry will allow you to apply a matrix transform to third parties probes based on a reference measure set. (This did not apply to our probe as it is yet managed differently).

The transformed matrix is compute based on primary measures of both documents. This is similar to what we do when generating calibration files for our probe except here it is not necessarily the result of a simultaneous measure. As reference and target document can be from very same probe, this is a mean to manage screen offsets.

As v1.21 is essentially a bug fix release, this feature is not as elaborate as what we plan in v1.3 but it can, today, allow you to either « train » a probe or manage screen offset.

As you cannot save the result matrix (as we do with our calibration files), it is not possible to create a new document using that “profile”, BUT it is pretty easy to save the “reference” document and re-apply matrix transform… We assume that to be fine for now and will allow us to have some feedback before the more elaborated version in v1.3.


Usage, how to manage screen offset (or train a meter) :

You first do an RGB measure (we strongly recommended to also do gray scale), once done save your document (ie : ScreenRef.chc) then check the set box in “Reference Measure” (center right in the measure window). Titles background will become light red in measure window.

That is now your reference doc (either ref. screen measures or ref. probe measures).

Now open a new document, do RGB measures (grayscale still recommended).
Now, you only have to tick the « Adjust XYZ coordinates » entry in « Advanced » menu. You are done.
A small window will popup giving you some info, and the titles background will become light green in measure window. (That means this document use matrix transform).

Note : The transformed matrix is saved in the target document and you can go back to original matrix by un-checking the menu option.

Note2 : If gray scale was measured on both document, the white will be use as reference to compute Delta E (displayed in small window when you apply transform, as well as additivity)

--ColorHCFR Team

ColorHCFR Team - program looks very nice. Its a very intuitive way to lay out the screens and information needed.

I have a few questions for clarification regarding the meter training.

With Colorfacts the training works by asking you to display a 75 IRE white, red, blue, and green field and measure each one. Then it asks you to switch meters and repeat for the 2nd meter (the one to be trained).

In reviewing your instructions on the temporary way to do meter training (before 1.3 is available), I'm trying to understand how the process relates.

You mention doing an RGB measures. Are you referring specifically to the RGB measures in the "Primaries" window in HCFR? At what point does it measure White then?

If I was to stop at this point and not measure the grayscale, then is this essentially emulating how Colorfacts does the training?

Lastly - you mention also perhaps doing a grayscale. Is the purpose of this so you can pick up any non-uniform differences between the meters? Here's the main challenge I am wondering about... The EyeOne is terrible below 30 IRE. Yet the SpyderTV is very good. Since the EyeOne is acting as the master, would measuring below 30 IRE in this training process then ruin the SpyderTV's accuracy at this level? Seems logical that it would... ? Thanks.

Note : Now we have proper Eyeone Display probe, we have seen some troubles both in v1.2 and v1.21... it is very likely a fix release will be out soon for Display users ;)

Happy New 2007 year
--ColorHCFR Team

Hey Laric, i was just wondering what the troubles are with the Display 2 probe? This is the meter that i currently own & was really looking forward to trying out the new version of the software tonight, but now i'm unsure as you are stating that there are troubles with my meter. Please let me know, if possible, exactly what the troubles are.

Thanks so much!
Carmine

PS The software does look very intuitive, keep up the great work guys!!!

Thanks for encouragements.

With Colorfacts the training works by asking you to display a 75 IRE white, red, blue, and green field and measure each one. Then it asks you to switch meters and repeat for the 2nd meter (the one to be trained).
It is almost the same here, except we have no direct read for white, but it is not mandatory, see below.
Note : if you want to use 75 IRE patterns, you have to go to the sensor menu then "configure", then "calibration" and type in 75 on the bottom drop down.
By default we use 100 IRE.

You mention doing an RGB measures. Are you referring specifically to the RGB measures in the "Primaries" window in HCFR? At what point does it measure White then?
Yes, I mean "Primaries" when saying RGB measures.

If I was to stop at this point and not measure the grayscale, then is this essentially emulating how Colorfacts does the training?
Yes, except that you have to either do have to do the gray scale measure if you want/need white. (you can measure white with the continous reading, and then type it in the 100 IRE column, but that is fastidious).

The grayScale measure recomendation is only to get white.

I'd strongly recommend you use the software to generates patterns (selecting "view images" as generator when starting new doc) that is way faster than any other method... At least for first overreview... (and also later ;))

--Patrice

Hey Laric, i was just wondering what the troubles are with the Display 2 probe? This is the meter that i currently own & was really looking forward to trying out the new version of the software tonight, but now i'm unsure as you are stating that there are troubles with my meter. Please let me know, if possible, exactly what the troubles are.
You can probably allready use it... Problems are not that big.

As you may have noticed, we add Gretag Eyeone support to v1.2 and that was for EyeOne beamer, incidently the Display are also supported but, so far, we don't diferenciate the two probe familly, hence some probe options that are useless, some that are missing, and some that didn't work at all with Display version.

So far, Eyeone Display probes works is LCD mode but not in CRT mode (so the fourth CRT specialized sensor is not use, annoying on CRTs).

Calibrate sensor returns an error with Display, but you can use it anyway. That is not really annoying as Display are way more correct than other probes.

Another anomaly is some abnormaly long measurement time when use in LCD mode on CRTs projectors/screens (from 15sec on black to 80sec on white) but again measures are fine.

So to summarise :
- You cannot use the CRT mode
- CRTs measures are a bit painfull

Obviously we will fix this, it is actually the main on-going work, that is why I said there may be a bug fix release for this.

Hope it helps
--Patrice

Ok, well since i will be using it on my LCD RPTV, i should have no problems?

Thank you again!
Carmine.

Grayscale has no effect on P/S color coordinates. If I'm wrong then someone please correct me.
Since you are adjusting the balance of the primaries, grayscale calibration has a very material effect on secondary and white point locations, unless your secondaries are "hard coded" (e.g., RGBCMY colorwheel).

Bill