Okay, here's my second run.

I kept all of my settings the same except I changed Gamma from OFF to MEDIUM. I then did my first run and got a gamma of 2.22. I check my RGB levels and found that I needed to do a little tweaking there. Once done I believe I ended up with good results except for CIE. I don't have a clue how to move these with User Menu settings.

All of the runs I have made today were in a room with typical daytime ambient light. Last night I was working in a pretty much totally dark room.

Should I be worried about the contrast number?

Opinions please. Thanks

What are your guys thoughts on splitting the discussions we've been having here into two threads?

I'm thinking it could be beneficial to keep this thread focused on the HCFR software itself, for discussions about how to use the software, bug reports, feature requests, installation matters, notices/updates from the developers, and "what does this switch do" type of questions.

Then we can use another thread for discussion about how-tos and matters more related to calibration techniques and findings themselves which are independent of which calibration software is being used.

Just wanted to float this out there.

I'm thinking we just start another thread for ColorHCFR calibrations specifically, rather than any calibration software since most here are focused on this software. And leave this for developer updates and how to questions. If I get a few to agree I'll start one off and posy my before and after files.

How about "Color HCFR calibration discussion (Post your calibration files here)". It would be a good place for people to go and see what type of results others may be getting on the same display and get feedback on their files.

A separate topic where we can post our results would be good. I'm hopeful that the good folks at ColorHCFR will monitor that topic as well and offer helpful hints and solutions to our questions.

A separate topic where we can post our results would be good. I'm hopeful that the good folks at ColorHCFR will monitor that topic as well and offer helpful hints and solutions to our questions.

Yes, I would hope most people here who have contributed to helping everyone would follow both threads. It would just keep the software updates, questions, etc separate from the actual calibration questions.

I have spent the last few days reading this forum and finally went through my first calibration on a mitsubishi 57732. I spent most of the day working on the grayscale. It still needs a little work, but I need a break!

This is a dumb question, but when working on the primary and secondary colors, do I adjust these from the main menu - perfect color section - of my tv? Is the best way to do a continuous measure and then adjust the colors?

At least, I will...

--Patrice ;)

Would someone with ColorHCFR please have a look at my calibration above (post#1513)? Thanks!

Carillon

Try Low as your gamma now..btw..by looking at your gamma, your CONTRAST is set to high, if you view the LOG Gamma, you will see that your HIGHER IRE's are nose diving all together (means too much contrast), these means that your contrast is way too high, lower it, then your brightness level (dark IRE), its seems like your need to adjust some to bring that down. 1st though, change gamma to LOW and then readjust your contrast and brightness setting. SO that you are aware, when adjusting for greyscale, those settings (contrast/brightness) need to be fined tuned..

Well I started a new thread for actual calibration related issues and file posting here

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9456230#post9456230

We'll see how it goes. For some of the people who recently posted here there will be a bit of transition as we split the thread.

Let's continue to use this current thread for software functionality questions, revisions, etc.

To now stay on functionality questions, revisions... I can say 1.22 beta is now in hands of some beta testers... We hope to have it out by end of next week...

As said previously, it is mainly a bug fix version, especially on proper and improved handling of probes (Eyeone Display in particular, but also on Beamer and SpyderII).
BTW, there is a bit of changes/improvements here and there.

--Patrice ;)

Carillon

Try Low as your gamma now..btw..by looking at your gamma, your CONTRAST is set to high, if you view the LOG Gamma, you will see that your HIGHER IRE's are nose diving all together (means too much contrast), these means that your contrast is way too high, lower it, then your brightness level (dark IRE), its seems like your need to adjust some to bring that down. 1st though, change gamma to LOW and then readjust your contrast and brightness setting. SO that you are aware, when adjusting for greyscale, those settings (contrast/brightness) need to be fined tuned..

Thanks for the reply richlo... based on what you have said above, I believe I will first change the Gamma setting to LOW. I will then use the greyramp pattern in Avia as you suggested to set the proper PICTURE/CONTRAST. If you'll recall, I have it set at MAX. I will then set the BRIGHTNESS with Avia. After all of this, I will make a calibration run with ColorHCFR. How does that sound?

As said previously, it is mainly a bug fix version, especially on proper and improved handling of probes (Eyeone Display in particular, but also on Beamer and SpyderII).


Thanks again for the excellent tool Patrice.

What specifically is being fixed for the EyeOne probes? Will you publishing release notes here or on the download site?

Thanks for the reply richlo... based on what you have said above, I believe I will first change the Gamma setting to LOW. I will then use the greyramp pattern in Avia as you suggested to set the proper PICTURE/CONTRAST. If you'll recall, I have it set at MAX. I will then set the BRIGHTNESS with Avia. After all of this, I will make a calibration run with ColorHCFR. How does that sound?


Yes...you got..looks like your going to have to continue to adj until things fall into place, you might want to read up more on your set to see what are some of the better tweaks / settings for your set..

Generally w/ brightness settings through AVIA it is meant for Crt (i know I said this with contrast already), so if your set is not a CRT, and lets say a DLP, bring up a OIRE pattern, and bring brightness up to where you see dithering of the mirrors or what looks like mosquito noise, then lower it down until they go away (mirrors shutoff), one click more down from that is fine..make your run then..

Anyone else notice that if you double click a calibration file to open it that when it opens, all of the tool bars are left aligned and stacked one below the other rather than all appearing in the same row as they are when I open the software first and then use the file open. Is this a minor bug?

Primetime,

So you are saying even though I might have a perfect CIE chart, my color and tint settings may still not be correct? How can this be?

Anyone else notice that if you double click a calibration file to open it that when it opens, all of the tool bars are left aligned and stacked one below the other rather than all appearing in the same row as they are when I open the software first and then use the file open. Is this a minor bug?
It is definitly a bug if it really exist :D !

I tryed many things without being able to reproduce it...

--Patrice

It is definitly a bug if it really exist :D !

I tryed many things without being able to reproduce it...

--Patrice

It is definately repeatable for me using this scenerio. Open ColorHCFR. Then open an existing file. Minimize ColorHCFR. Use explorer to find another file and double click to open it. ColorHCFR does not open, but if you click on it down in the task bar and bring it up the new file is open and the tool bars are all stacked.

Edit: An existing file does not even need to be opened, as along as ColorHCR is open and minimized when a file is doubleclicked this occurs. Not sure if it is related to the issue, but I do have multiple instances checked and I would have thought double clicking a file when HCFR is already open would launch a new instance rather than opening the file in the current instance.

A question for EyeOne Display users.

How much variability do you see between consecutive runs? After doing what I thought would be my "final" tweak and running the greyscale test one of the points moved in the opposite direction I thought it would. So with out changing anything on the TV I re-ran the greyscale measurement and sure enough it moved to where I expected it.

Now, it's not like it move a lot, delta E went from about 3.5 to 2.5 for the point in question. Just curious to see what others are experiencing.

Yes, I did run the sensor calibration before I started.

Edit: An existing file does not even need to be opened, as along as ColorHCR is open and minimized when a file is doubleclicked this occurs. Not sure if it is related to the issue, but I do have multiple instances checked and I would have thought double clicking a file when HCFR is already open would launch a new instance rather than opening the file in the current instance.
Ok, the bug is related to this, there is only one .ini file and openning a new instance make it think it have no .ini and so goes to default staked up tool tip...

Uncheck the "multiple instances" in preference and you won't have this (obviously then all your file will be opened in same instance of app... remember you have the browser feature then to navigate through multiple files).

I never use the "multiple instances" feature but guess some may prefer it...

--Patrice

I unchecked the box, restarted ColorHCFR, minimized it and then doubleclicked a file and the same thing happened.

I prefer the multiple-instances so I can alt-tab quickly between them...to each their own I guess.

Ok, we will look into this... Sorry for inconvénience ;)

--Patrice

I went back and played with color a little today. Here is what I found with my projector. I set tint and color first with getgray and a blue filter. Then I set up 2 perfect CIE charts, one for SD and one for HD. I then went back and checked color and tint with the blue filter and to my surprise it did not move but actually got a little better. I also suspect that my Denon 1920 is using the HD color space as it is the one that needs the smallest amount of adjustment to get a perfect chart.

The other thing that is interesting is when I toggle back and forth between the two color profiles I see only a very,very subtle difference. Most people could never even see it I think.

I'm really sorry for the bad forum etiquette that I'm about to show, but could someone point me in the direction in a step by step walkthrough on how to use this software along with a Spyder2Express sensor?

I'm mostly trying to use this to calibrate my gray scale. I've used Avia to set my color decoder, brightness, and contrast, and sharpness already, and so far my Hitachi 46F500 RPTV is looking great, but I want to get this as perfect as I possibly can (without shelling out $500 for an ISF guy to do it). So could anyone also advise me as to what else I can use this software for (if anything) to help calibrate my TV even more?

I tried figuring it out on my own, but this software looks way too sophisticated to figure out on my own, and I just don't have the time to read through the 52 pages of this thread to see if anyone else has asked for and/or posted answers for this.

I checked out the help file, and when I saw the ColorHCFR for Dummies section, I thought that would be what I was looking for, but sadly it's still under construction. Is there any indication as to when this may be complete?

Thanks in advance for any assistance that may be provided.

Go to the new HCFR help thread created here http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9456230#post9456230.

Patrice, Georges, and gang,

I've noticed some odd behaviour with my EyeOne DisplayLT that I was wondering if you had seen.

I have averaging for dark measurements turned on, and as expected it reads longer at 0 -> 30 IRE but one pretty much every greyscale reading I do there are at least two high IRE measurements that take quite a lot longer than normal.

It seems to be random on which IRE reading takes longer. I've seen every measurement from 40 -> 100 take longer (I'd say it take up to 20 sec) some times.

Any ideas?

Yes, we are aware of this problem (I think I described it a week ago...)

It is now fixed (afaik), would you enjoy a beta version to test out, that'll be appreciated.

--Patrice

Thanks for the info. I can certainly help with the beta.

Hi All,

Please forgive me if this has already been answered but I can't seem to find it in a search.

I want to know if I can use the spyder2express sensor to calibrate my panasonic plasma, and if so, which of the many software products I should use with it.

I am looking at S2Fly to read the probe. Is this the best way to go?

I have read hundreds of these posts already and still it is not clear to me if this device can be used to calibrate a plasma display, and if so, if the filter should be used or if offset calibration values need to be entered. Can you please tell me where I can learn about this?

I'd like to use one of the available free sw packages out there to directly read from the probe, and I assume manually populate one of the spreadsheet apps that provide plots and error calculations. Which do you recommend?

I would also appreciate any tutorial on greyscale calibration for the home hobbyist. I have no concerns whatsoever about fiddling with my monitor's service menu. I like this kind of thing, and I have recorded all the original values for reference. My monitor is a Panasonic 50PH9UK. I see W/B adjustments for B high, R high, B low, and R low, as well as gama 2.0, 2.2, 2.5 already in user menu, and cuts and gains for each color in service menu.

Thanks For any help and please feel free to PM!

Rich

I want to know if I can use the spyder2express sensor to calibrate my panasonic plasma, and if so, which of the many software products I should use with it.

I am looking at S2Fly to read the probe. Is this the best way to go?


Why not use the software that is the topic of this thread you posted in? No need to manually populate anything...

Why not use the software that is the topic of this thread you posted in? No need to manually populate anything...

OK. I guess I don't understand exactly what HCFR does at this point. I did read a lot of these posts. I downloaded their latest release and also tried their website but I cant read French. How can I learn more about how to use this product?

btw. It sure looks very professional! Just need some English directions.

I hear they also offer a sensor for sale or plans for a DIY. But I haven't found where to purchase theirs from yet.

Are folks on this thread happy with the S2? Anyone using the custom probe from HCFR?

Can the S2 probe be used with a plasma display?

Thanks

Rich

You mean "ColorHCFR" right ? :D

--Patrice ;)

You mean "ColorHCFR" right ? :D

--Patrice ;)

Hi Patrice. Yes. I believe I mean ColorHCFR. Was there another HCFR? SOrry, I'm not aware. Please give me a few days to catch up on all this. I just discovered this whole topic last night and I am very excited to learn more. I can hardly believe I can do calibrations now for the cost of a cheap colorimeter! I am anxious to get started.

I went back just now to the first post on this thread which I assume is the "official" link. I followed this and just downloaded version 1.2.1 which I assume is latest. Is this correct? I read that this one contains an English help utility.

Patrice: It looks like you are a team lead in developing this is this correct? Just want to learn the players. I think I'll be around for a while.

Please tell me the best way to learn all there is to kow about this product.

Thanks

Rich

OK. I guess I don't understand exactly what HCFR does at this point. I did read a lot of these posts. I downloaded their latest release and also tried their website but I cant read French. How can I learn more about how to use this product?

btw. It sure looks very professional! Just need some English directions.

I hear they also offer a sensor for sale or plans for a DIY. But I haven't found where to purchase theirs from yet.

Are folks on this thread happy with the S2? Anyone using the custom probe from HCFR?

Can the S2 probe be used with a plasma display?

Thanks

Rich

Hi Rich-

before we even try to give you some direction on 'how to', you should have a basic understanding of calibration. Im very hesitant to answer questions such as these because calibration for someone who actually doesnt know alot about it, can royally screw up their sets..

But to answe if the S2 can be used on a plasman, I cant see why not..

Hi Rich-

before we even try to give you some direction on 'how to', you should have a basic understanding of calibration. Im very hesitant to answer questions such as these because calibration for someone who actually doesnt know alot about it, can royally screw up their sets..

But to answe if the S2 can be used on a plasman, I cant see why not..

I understand your point, but I want to learn this and I've got to start somewhere. I think it may become a hobby of mine. I am an engineer and like to tinker and experiment. I don't care what happens to my monitor, I just want to play.

I have had DVE for some time and have always wished there were some way I could quantitatively measure the color and luminance of the test patterns rather than just relying on my eye without spending a foutune. Now it looks like this Spyder2 product will do the trick, and colorHCFR will help interpret the results.

PS. What could I possibly screw up in my monitor that could not be resolved by resetting everything to the initial values? (As long as I can make sure I really have *all* of the initial values.) Where can I learn more about calibration techniques? Please PM if you don't want to clutter up this thread with newbe stuff.

Thanks very much

Rich

trick, and colorHCFR will help interpret the results.

PS. What could I possibly screw up in my monitor that could not be resolved by resetting everything to the initial values? (As long as I can make sure I really have *all* of the initial values.) Where can I learn more about calibration techniques? Please PM if you don't want to clutter up this thread with newbe stuff.

Thanks very much

Rich

Good thing you said your an engineer..hahah

Yes, as long as you record your initial values you should be okay, unfortunately, way too many times do novices jump in and hose their sets and have the darnest time getting back. For instance, on certain Mits you can go into the service menu, if you hit the 3 key, you just ruined your HD signal, and will have to have the eeprom reprogrammed. On another set, if you select CALIBRATE on the service menu and do not have the signal hooked up, you just screwed up your set. In any case, you already know the most single important thing..RECORD YOUR INITIAL VALUES..

Dont worry - when I get back I will try to give you a run down of some of the very basics..

on certain Mits you can go into the service menu, if you hit the 3 key, you just ruined your HD signal, and will have to have the eeprom reprogrammed. On another set, if you select CALIBRATE on the service menu and do not have the signal hooked up, you just screwed up your set.On a certain Pioneer TV you can go peek what's what into a certain submenu, and then the TV enters rigorous testing mode with automatic turning off and on, and even pulling the plug from a wall does not help. Hundred bucks does, though. Like De Niro's Sam used to say: know your way out before getting in.
Where can I learn more about calibration techniques?This was a really good start for me: http://www.calman.tv/graphics/calibration_howto_v1.pdf

richlo- Would you feel comfortable posting that for all to see? If not, could you email me separately?

Thanks,
CJ

On a certain Pioneer TV you can go peek what's what into a certain submenu, and then the TV enters rigorous testing mode with automatic turning off and on, and even pulling the plug from a wall does not help. Hundred bucks does, though. Like De Niro's Sam used to say: know your way out before getting in.
This was a really good start for me: http://www.calman.tv/graphics/calibration_howto_v1.pdf

Thanks! This is a very informative primer. So it looks like the basic plan is to use R, G and B color "contrast" and "brightness" settings from the service menu to try to make the RGB color plot look nearly flat at D65 for the whole range of signal levels, and also make the gama plot look smooth (and nearly on top of each other) for each color. Seems pretty clear that these two plots will be interdependent. Need to learn how the "delta E" figures in. I've heard many posts comparing this metric as well.

Thanks for your help.

Now, should I buy the Spyder2express today for 59.95 or not? Is there a better entry-level choice?

Thanks
Rich

Now, should I buy the Spyder2express today for 59.95 or not? Is there a better entry-level choice?

I'm glad the primer helped. It is the beginning sections of the v1 manual for CalMAN, and is something which I hope helps get people over the conceptual hurdle for doing calibrations. I would also hope that people would at least mention our name when linking to our thoughtware. ;)

For hardware, we recommend the EyeOne Display, in all of its various forms [Display2 and DisplayLT] with our software for those wanting to use a low-cost colorimeter. We've done some fairly extensive testing with the Display, and our initial results have been such that we are releasing our recommendation ahead of our full findings. Those interested in the full findings can wander our way [forum] in a couple of more weeks. :)

Bill

Laric a question.

If I use the DVD that has your soft with my DVD player for set up my proj, can I adjust the brightness and contrast?
(I have seen that there are two gray ramps but they doesn't label the value of every bar in IREs ...)

Regars

Just found this thread. Wow! My hat's off to Patrice and the other developers!

Now, any chance of support for Progressive Labs' CA-6X probe? I purchased one some time ago and have a strong dislike to the software that comes with it.

Whisper2, to be perfectly honnest, I need to check, I don't think there is anything specific to adjust brightness and contrast (except those gray ramps).

They are suposedly (I dunno :D) 11 bars, 0 to 100 IRE (by 10 increment).

--Patrice

laric, does the application work with Pantone Eye-One Display 2? I think it's basically the same sensor as Gretag's Eye-One Display 2.

I think so, I'm pretty sure we had someone using it... BUT i cannot garanteed it works.

--Patrice

Pantone Eye-One Display 2 is the exact same unit as the Gretag-Macbeth. It is just an OEM sold to Pantone from Gretag.

Pantone Eye-One Display 2 is the exact same unit as the Gretag-Macbeth. It is just an OEM sold to Pantone from Gretag.
That's what I figured. Should work fine, then. Thanks!

Pantone Eye-One Display 2 is the exact same unit as the Gretag-Macbeth. It is just an OEM sold to Pantone from Gretag.
I have the unit sold as the Pantone Eye-One Display Lt and it seems to work fine. I haven't tried it on the projector yet, only my computer monitor but it appears to work.

I can confirm it do works fine (especially with upcoming v1.22).

--Patrice ;)

Whisper2, to be perfectly honnest, I need to check, I don't think there is anything specific to adjust brightness and contrast (except those gray ramps).

They are suposedly (I dunno :D) 11 bars, 0 to 100 IRE (by 10 increment).

--Patrice

Thank you very much for be honest .. and then if I've got another question it's probably you can't respond :)
("no problem")


well, do you know if your team are going to do any version with patterns

-4 and + 104% ire level to adjust brightness/contrast?


Or something, like the two "animated" test patterns with 99, 98 and 1, 2 IRE levels? ( but IN your DVD )


I've got DVE (pal version), but it's very complex to navigation and the patterns are for CRT display (analog displays) . Well, I know there are some for digital displays, but I don't like so much


Thanks..

Yes, that will appear in later version of DVD, as well as a few more patterns not directly required by software... as well as HD-DVD and NTSC versions.

We just need a bit of time ;) (or people to handle it :D)

--Patrice

Which Eyeone product should I buy to use this ColorHCFR application?

-- Eyeone 2
-- Eyeone LT

The Eyeone 2 costs more but I think the probe may be identical. Am I only interested in the hardware or do I need the Eyeone SW too? Is there any reason to choose this one?

How do you guys think the Eyeone compares to Spyder2?

Thanks
Rich

I'm using the Pantone branded EyeOne Display LT. It is the exact same H/W as the Display2. Only the S/W that ships with it is different.

Like the now discontinued DTP-94, it appears to be very consistent/accurate at lower light levels.

Yes, they identical (afaik) and they are probably the best result/price ratio you can find at the moment.

--Patrice

Yes, that will appear in later version of DVD, as well as a few more patterns not directly required by software... as well as HD-DVD and NTSC versions.

We just need a bit of time ;) (or people to handle it :D)

--Patrice
each time that I think it, you (your team) are better ;)


Still I remember the version BETA 37 ... wow.. since then it has changed ... :eek:


Regards...

Using the Eye One Display2 without its diffuser to take front projection readings off the screen is VERY dependent on the meter's sensor's angle to the screen. I tweaked my projector in this way and then removed the display2 from the tripod and when I reattached it (at a slightly different angle) my readings were suddenly totally off (I have an Optoma Greywolf screen, so its peculiar reflective qualities could be to blame, YMMV). As the Calman crew suggests you should only take front projection measurements with the ambient diffuser attached. Currently, HCFR does not have an Eye One ambient mode so you cannot take proper measurements with the diffuser attached (I've verified this with Babelcolor in its Eye One ambient mode).

To get the great calculations and charts from HCFR I've taken measurements in Babelcolor and manually entered them into HCFR with "editable data" checked. My "Y" numbers are huge because they are actually lux numbers.

Latest (and greatest) chc attached. I've fixed my red clipping (topped out at 75% with contrast set too high, now has full gradation) in contrast and I really have a deep 3D picture and flesh tones are beautiful (I'm sure the proper gamma helps too).

More on my struggles with the Eye One family and HCFR (http://geekwithfamily.com/2007/01/16/home-theater/do-not-repeat-my-mistakes-calibrating-your-home-theater-projector/) .

Will we see an Eye One ambient mode in 1.22?

Kyleck23,

I've been playing with the Display LT facing my high power screen without the diffusor. With the diffusor on light hitting the sensor approximately halved which reduces it's accuracy in low % grays and increases the time to measure plus it provides a different RGB levels which when calibrated looks wrong.

Without the diffusor I can change the angle of the sensor to the screen approx 20 degrees without RGB shifts and I feel more comfortable with the readings from the higher light levels hitting the sensors plus the final calibrated image using the sensor without the diffusor looks fantastic to my wife and I.

Here's the final calibration file without diffusor. Interesting that you and I both have the same Blue hump at 80ire.

Another problem I had that I didn't mention was "No Data from Sensor" errors when trying to measure low light levels off the screen without the diffuser (my 0% black is 2 lux). I couldn't get the sensor back without force exiting HCFR and reconnecting the Display2. Don't know if this is a problem with Parallels Windows emulation or what. When the meter did take readings at higher light levels it took a long time (other's have noticed this bug).

Other than the angle dependent color shifts, that's why I switched to taking measurements with Babelcolor.

I went back and played with color a little today. Here is what I found with my projector. I set tint and color first with getgray and a blue filter. Then I set up 2 perfect CIE charts, one for SD and one for HD. I then went back and checked color and tint with the blue filter and to my surprise it did not move but actually got a little better. I also suspect that my Denon 1920 is using the HD color space as it is the one that needs the smallest amount of adjustment to get a perfect chart.

The other thing that is interesting is when I toggle back and forth between the two color profiles I see only a very,very subtle difference. Most people could never even see it I think.



How do you set perfect CIE charts? Which controls do you adjust.
Thanks.

Another problem I had that I didn't mention was "No Data from Sensor" errors when trying to measure low light levels off the screen without the diffuser (my 0% black is 2 lux). I couldn't get the sensor back without force exiting HCFR and reconnecting the Display2. Don't know if this is a problem with Parallels Windows emulation or what. When the meter did take readings at higher light levels it took a long time (other's have noticed this bug).

Other than the angle dependent color shifts, that's why I switched to taking measurements with Babelcolor.


I have read about the random long read times, curiously when I first began using the sensor the read times were very predictable, below 40 ire the read time progressively would increase, everything at and above 60 ire was very quick. This was using an out of the box sensor without the updated 3.6 software. After upgrading the software I noted the DLL file was also changed and guess what, the read times changed a little. Overall they seem quicker but when reading 80ire (% in my case) the read time 50% of the time is quite slow now.

For hardware, we recommend the EyeOne Display, in all of its various forms [Display2 and DisplayLT] with our software for those wanting to use a low-cost colorimeter. We've done some fairly extensive testing with the Display, and our initial results have been such that we are releasing our recommendation ahead of our full findings. Those interested in the full findings can wander our way [forum] in a couple of more weeks. :)

Bill

It doesn't look like the EyeOne Display is designed to be used on a tripod. How do you connect it to one for projector screens?

Brian

It doesn't look like the EyeOne Display is designed to be used on a tripod. How do you connect it to one for projector screens?

Brian

First I used tape but that was a pain so I fashioned this home brew holder. The sensor is held in place by pressure, the little polyurethane PRO-TEC-TORS pads are a little sticky plus they protect the sensor. Works great.

I think I already saw a suggestion to show R, G, B luminocities in logarithmic... er, in non-logarithmic way, like gamma is shown by default. I would like to see this feature implemented, too.

I am experiencing some problems with my setup (noisy red subpixels on higher contrast settings), and jvincent in another thread suggested verifying my red cut/bias. I recall that red indeed has a spike at low IREs comparing to other color components. I think that non-logarithmic dislay could help even better to pinpoint the problem. Thanks.

Yesterday I was adjusting secondaries on my plasma TV. I have DVE and filters, but turns out that my eyes are not precise enough. So I was making changes, step by step, one value by one - changing color and tint. I made about 20 measurements and saved all of them to respective files.

Now I think it would be cool if I could load all these measurements into a set and define order between them (chronological by defaut). Then I could select a parameter to watch and "run" the set, then ColorHCFR would display an animation of how this parameter has been changing. Say, I was adjusting secondares, so I would watch how my secondaries were getting closer and closer to the optimal. Maybe ColorHCFR could even save this animation to an animated GIF file ;)

Another option is not to animate, but to show the progression on one picture, using larger scale of course, and some arrows or dashed lines, etc, and show my secondaries sliding over CIE chart towards their current position.

Ungermann, if you use the "Measures" function it does continuous readings and if you have the CIE chart up (as an example) you can see the "dot" move with each reading.

It's a pretty cool feature.

richlo- Would you feel comfortable posting that for all to see? If not, could you email me separately?

Thanks,
CJ

i would post so tht everyone to see..Im just a little busy these days..so maybe over the weekend I can put together something everyone can understand..

It doesn't look like the EyeOne Display is designed to be used on a tripod. How do you connect it to one for projector screens?

Brian
If you've got about $4 and a half hour of time...
http://www.datapopuli.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=342

(Hugh2's method is WAY too high tech for me!)

Bill

Yes, for CRT you want to bring it down because of blooming and burning out your CRT..but still when did you ever hear to MAX out contrast in any display??Never..CONTRAST set high will show colorshifting in digital displays..a good pattern for brightness is with GetGray where they have 2 pattern over 235 for white, if maxed out, you will see color shifting, you bring that down until colorshifting is no longer there and/or the two bars dissapear in the background...Most people setup digital contrast high because they never see blooming which is not the way to setup digital displays..that is why you probably have yours close to maxed out..

DVD and AVIA, as stated before where geared for CRT displays, so even those patterns you have to modify on how to use it with Digital displays.

Hi richlo... I just purchased GetGray. I took a look at the Contrast pattern. Guess what, I can set my display at MAX PICTURE and not clip either of the whiter than white bars with no color shifting. Perhaps this is typical for my type of display (Sony KDS50A2000 SXRD).

Also, does Color HCFR handle the GetGray gray patterns correctly. They seem to be represented in percentages instead of IRE.

One last item... do I measure primaries/secondaries at 100% or 75%. I've read the discussion but am still confused. I'm using a Spyder 2.

Thanks so much for your patience and willingness to help.

Hi richlo... I just purchased GetGray. I took a look at the Contrast pattern. Guess what, I can set my display at MAX PICTURE and not clip either of the whiter than white bars with no color shifting. Perhaps this is typical for my type of display (Sony KDS50A2000 SXRD).

Also, does Color HCFR handle the GetGray gray patterns correctly. They seem to be represented in percentages instead of IRE.

One last item... do I measure primaries/secondaries at 100% or 75%. I've read the discussion but am still confused. I'm using a Spyder 2.

Thanks so much for your patience and willingness to help.


You could be right then, but the truth is maybe you need to ask around to see how to set contrast for an SXRD then, it might be different, but nevertheless, if max is fine, then maybe its in the service menu where MAX is not truly max but lets say 50%-75%..who knows..are you able to make +2 and +5 dissapear in the pattern for contrast? this is the way it first needs to be done, if not then you look for colorshifting and back down before you see it, the colorshift will show in +2 +5 bars readily

For measuring your prim/secondaries, Laric mentioned 100%, I used the ColorHCFR PAL dsk pattern already for this, which I believe would be 100% since they designed it around the software, I also used 75% of Getgrey and I really didnt see any difference in the points, but just stick with 100% since that is what Laric mentioned to use.

Well if it means anything, i have a Sony 55XS955 LCD RPTV & with GET GRAY i was never able to get any of the white bars in the CONTRAST section to disappear. I do, however, notice that the above white bars in the GRAY RAMPS section turn slightly blue when i have my contrast control set to high.

Carmine.

Well if it means anything, i have a Sony 55XS955 LCD RPTV & with GET GRAY i was never able to get any of the white bars in the CONTRAST section to disappear. I do, however, notice that the above white bars in the GRAY RAMPS section turn slightly blue when i have my contrast control set to high.

Carmine.
same thing for my DLP Mits3000U

Hey Rich, i was just wondering if you know any methods for adjusting color decoder on Sony LCD RPTV's? I did my first grayscale run a few days ago with HCFR but my color decoder is way off.

Thanks so much!
Carmine.

Carmine-

on the SONY's, there are genernally either a Matrix decoder that can be changed in them, it might be a 0 where it should be a 1 and that will be it, but sometimes they give you more flexibility, where you can can adjust color and tint for all colors, but all these are in the service menu. Im pretty sure you would have that available but its a matter of which one. I use to have a Sony, so I will give you what I think might be the way to get into sony's service menu (later tonight)

Great Rich, thanks so much!

Carmine.

I tried the gray scale ramp pattern in GetGray while adjusting the PICTURE control and saw no clipping or color shifting. Would the color shifting be present at the high end of the scale?

Also, an unrelated hypothetical question:
If I adjust BRIGHTNESS and PICTURE based on the GetGray patterns and my gamma is around 2.7 or so. What should my next best adjustment be to help bring it closer to 2.2?

Thanks

I tried the gray scale ramp pattern in GetGray while adjusting the PICTURE control and saw no clipping or color shifting. Would the color shifting be present at the high end of the scale?

Also, an unrelated hypothetical question:
If I adjust BRIGHTNESS and PICTURE based on the GetGray patterns and my gamma is around 2.7 or so. What should my next best adjustment be to help bring it closer to 2.2?

Thanks


is your gamma based on CAMERA GAMMA? it might be that you need to go with 2nd option..the Camera Gamma is not applicable to all display devices.

Yes, that will appear in later version of DVD, as well as a few more patterns not directly required by software... as well as HD-DVD and NTSC versions.

We just need a bit of time ;) (or people to handle it :D)

--Patrice

Any Idea of when this versions will become available?

Laric and ColorHCFR team,

I think it's necessary to further explain in detail about the differences between "Gamma w/ Black Comp. and Camera Gamma(Std Offset)" and when each one should be used. Recommending one over the other just to bring the reference closer to what the display has from factory or what a particular user has currently achieved trying to calibrate it is not the best method.

Laric and ColorHCFR team,

I think it's necessary to further explain in detail about the differences between "Gamma w/ Black Comp. and Camera Gamma(Std Offset)" and when each one should be used. Recommending one over the other just to bring the reference closer to what the display has from factory or what a particular user has currently achieved trying to calibrate it is not the best method.

I agree... I am currently using Camera Gamma as my setting. My display is a Sony KDS50A2000 SXRD rear projection. It's not plasma, LCD or DLP but it is LCoS (Liquid Chrystal on Silicon). So yes, it would help to know which gamma setting is appropriate for my display.

Carmine-

on the SONY's, there are genernally either a Matrix decoder that can be changed in them, it might be a 0 where it should be a 1 and that will be it, but sometimes they give you more flexibility, where you can can adjust color and tint for all colors, but all these are in the service menu. Im pretty sure you would have that available but its a matter of which one. I use to have a Sony, so I will give you what I think might be the way to get into sony's service menu (later tonight)

My Sony does have the Matrix setting in the service mode but after doing some more digging changing does not matter. The TV changes it on its own based on input resolution. It is a 0 (SD) for 480i and 480p and 1 (HD) for everything else. You can change it while in service mode and it only affects things at that given time for calibration. Once you exit service mode the TV takes control over it again.
This is on a a KP-57WS510 CRT rear-projection. I still have not found a way to move the RGB points in the service mode.

I'd like to request that the "Meter Averaging" feature be available on not only low IRE readings but for the higher IREs as well.

I still see a little bit of "drift" between consecutive greyscale measurements and it would be nice to smooth these out.

From an interface perspective I think a number (1-5) would be sufficient.

Hi jvinvent

Well, with the ini file entries I already described, you can do it. Put a max number of measurements equal to the number of measures you want, and put a huge value for the maximum Y, which will never be achieved. This is it ;)

Regards
Georges

Laric and ColorHCFR team,

I think it's necessary to further explain in detail about the differences between "Gamma w/ Black Comp. and Camera Gamma(Std Offset)" and when each one should be used. Recommending one over the other just to bring the reference closer to what the display has from factory or what a particular user has currently achieved trying to calibrate it is not the best method.
Hi,

Yes, we agree...

My only problem is that we have this whole thing on our forum but it is really a lot to translate and properly explain...

Trust me, we will explain it, just need a bit of time.

--Patrice

I know there are a few Sony SXRD owners who frequent this thread. What gamma setting did you use and were you able to get a satisfactory calibration with it?

I've been using Camera Gamma and have to increase my BRIGHTNESS and reduce my PICTURE settings to get gamma to track nicely at 2.2.

Comments?

We have many users with either Ruby or Pearl that have a wonderfull calibration and less that 2 Delta E on all gray scale, very nice results. (that was using our probe trained by I1)

--Patrice

Hi jvinvent

Well, with the ini file entries I already described, you can do it. Put a max number of measurements equal to the number of measures you want, and put a huge value for the maximum Y, which will never be achieved. This is it ;)

Thanks Georges, I must have missed that description.

My Sony does have the Matrix setting in the service mode but after doing some more digging changing does not matter. The TV changes it on its own based on input resolution. It is a 0 (SD) for 480i and 480p and 1 (HD) for everything else. You can change it while in service mode and it only affects things at that given time for calibration. Once you exit service mode the TV takes control over it again.
This is on a a KP-57WS510 CRT rear-projection. I still have not found a way to move the RGB points in the service mode.


are you actually saving (writing it back to the eeprom)? this does not make any sense. I had the 500 series and it acts the same way as the 510. Have you recalibrated then your user color and tint after changing?

We have many users with either Ruby or Pearl that have a wonderfull calibration and less that 2 Delta E on all gray scale, very nice results. (that was using our probe trained by I1)

--Patrice

Just out of curiosity, what was the dE on the Ruby at 5 IRE? I was able to get 10-100 IRE at dE of 0-3, but at 5 IRE I couldn't get lower than a dE of 8, at least not without raising the dE of the other ranges which I was not prepared to do.

I know there are a few Sony SXRD owners who frequent this thread. What gamma setting did you use and were you able to get a satisfactory calibration with it?

I've been using Camera Gamma and have to increase my BRIGHTNESS and reduce my PICTURE settings to get gamma to track nicely at 2.2.

Comments?My Pearl's gamma came out to around 2.45 using the no iris setting with no gamma or black correction. I haven't even started calibrating in the autoiris mode(s). One of the gamma correction options - I believe it's the middle one - in the standard user menu probably gets me close to 2.2 (I haven't measured it) but I prefer the higher gamma in my dark HT.

Dan

My Pearl's gamma came out to around 2.45 using the no iris setting with no gamma or black correction. I haven't even started calibrating in the autoiris mode(s). One of the gamma correction options - I believe it's the middle one - in the standard user menu probably gets me close to 2.2 (I haven't measured it) but I prefer the higher gamma in my dark HT.

Dan

Hi Dan... my display offers Dynamic Iris. I have selected a fixed setting of HIGH and neither one of the Auto settings. I figured that would confuse Color HCFR. My gamma setting in the user menu is currently set to HIGH. Any and all black, white or color correctors are turned OFF.

are you actually saving (writing it back to the eeprom)? this does not make any sense. I had the 500 series and it acts the same way as the 510. Have you recalibrated then your user color and tint after changing?

Yes, I did save it. I found the issue when I started looking to see if there were any differences in measurements based on the different resolutions. And I thought the same as you, that I thought I forgot to save the changes. As I dug into it I found documentation (I forget where and I'd have to look for it again) that specificly states the MTRX value can be changed but will not be saved. It is only allowed to be changed while in service mode for calibration purposes. Leaving the TV in service mode I can toggle the resolutions on the DVD player and see the value change but in no way can I make it stick to one value.

Yes, I did save it. I found the issue when I started looking to see if there were any differences in measurements based on the different resolutions. And I thought the same as you, that I thought I forgot to save the changes. As I dug into it I found documentation (I forget where and I'd have to look for it again) that specificly states the MTRX value can be changed but will not be saved. It is only allowed to be changed while in service mode for calibration purposes. Leaving the TV in service mode I can toggle the resolutions on the DVD player and see the value change but in no way can I make it stick to one value.


I dont think your color points will change with this, it will change your color decoder actually..

Im still trying to figure the difference of CIE color points and the Color Decoder..whats the difference, because I dont believe its the same thing like I had orginally thought.

Here is our answer to this question

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/archive/index.php/t-708271.html

seems many of us are under he assumption that CIE and Color Decoders are related.they are not, the CIE points are the points related to the GREYSCALE RGB to help you track D65, Color bar adjustment is simply aligning the color decoder which it does not matter if you have D65 or anything other greyscale point, you can have a perfect color decoder but an imperfect CIE point...In addition, its nice to know that the Mits3000U that I have has it where if D65 is good, you also dialed in your color decoder...but that not the norm..

SO folks - Color and Tint have NOTHING to due with CIE points...so do not try to adjust it to the CIE points..unless you have the gamut control like some projectors seem to have

I dont think your color points will change with this, it will change your color decoder actually..

Im still trying to figure the difference of CIE color points and the Color Decoder..whats the difference, because I dont believe its the same thing like I had orginally thought.

Here is our answer to this question

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/archive/index.php/t-708271.html

seems many of us are under he assumption that CIE and Color Decoders are related.they are not, the CIE points are the points related to the GREYSCALE RGB to help you track D65, Color bar adjustment is simply aligning the color decoder which it does not matter if you have D65 or anything other greyscale point, you can have a perfect color decoder but an imperfect CIE point...In addition, its nice to know that the Mits3000U that I have has it where if D65 is good, you also dialed in your color decoder...but that not the norm..

SO folks - Color and Tint have NOTHING to due with CIE points...so do not try to adjust it to the CIE points..unless you have the gamut control like some projectors seem to have

First off, richlo, my bad. My info was incorrect...i did forget to save and/or got confused when checking multiple inputs at multiple resolutions. I just went and checked and when I went into service mode I actually was feeding it a 1080i signal and had MTRX at 0, which is SD...oops. Since my service manaul doesn't state much about this setting I had found info as to what it meant through other sources on the web. I also found a service manual for a different TV which stated the idea of it cannot be saved. I assumed that was the case on my set and got confused and now have found out it can be changed. So thanks for continuing to ask the questions so I could figure it out.

As far as RGB and CIE I have been trying to learn more myself. I don't know enough yet but do know that you should not adjust color/tint to move your RGB points on the CIE. Sure color/tint moves these points but that is not the proper way to do it. Back in the other thread we started I posted this and said color/tint should be set with test patterns and filters (or turning of red and green crts). Then your CIE is what it is and the only way to change it is with specific gamut controls.

Here is another thread I'm following on a similar color issue.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=788072

I guess maybe we should move this conversation to the other ColorHCFR calibration thread. So I'll post this over there to continue discussion.

Then your CIE is what it is and the only way to change it is with specific gamut controls.


Bingo..btw..I just responded to your PM

This post (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9386895&&#post9386895) by Laric shows a formula for "(3) Camera Gamma (Standard Offset)":

Y = ((V+offset)/(1+offset))^gamma

Why is it different from camera gamma, defined in [Poynton] Gamma FAQ (http://www.poynton.com/PDFs/GammaFAQ.pdf) and in PNG specification (http://www.w3.org/TR/PNG-GammaAppendix):

The original NTSC video standards specified a simple power-law camera transfer function with a gamma of 1/2.2 or 0.45. This is not possible to implement exactly in analog hardware because the function has infinite slope at x=0, so all cameras deviated to some degree from this ideal. More recently, a new camera transfer function that is physically realizable has been accepted as a standard [SMPTE-170M]. It is

Vout = 4.5 * Vin if Vin < 0.018
Vout = 1.099 * (Vin^0.45) - 0.099 if Vin >= 0.018

where Vin and Vout are measured on a scale of 0 to 1. Although the exponent remains 0.45, the multiplication and subtraction change the shape of the transfer function, so it is no longer a pure power function.The above camera gamma is used in Rec.709 as well.

If these equations are more or less equal (no pun intended), then why do we calibrate exactly to camera gamma, if we are supposed to produce viewing gamma within [1, 1.5]? Or does an equation used by HCFR team already makes correction for viewing gamma?

Also, do I understand correctly that Display Gamma (with or without correction) is recommended for dim/dark environments, so that overall viewing gamma were somewhere within [1, 1.5] range?

Het Rich, when you say MATRIX might you mean the AXIS control in the service menu? I've navigated pretty deeply into my Sony's service menu & don't recall seeing a MATRIX parameter.

Let me know pal,
Thank you.
Carmine.

Carmine

YES..you are correct

ok well with AXIS set to 0 by default, RY-R, RY-B & GY-R GY-B don't seem to do anything, i will try switchingAXIS to 1 & see if that makes a difference.

Thanks again Rich!
Carmine

ok well with AXIS set to 0 by default, RY-R, RY-B & GY-R GY-B don't seem to do anything, i will try switchingAXIS to 1 & see if that makes a difference.

Thanks again Rich!
Carmine


Not sure exactly what AXIS does but it has always been recommended to set to 1 to reduce red push. I have a MTRX in the 2170 category as well. I've always had AXIS set to 1 and for my TV the HD resolutions all had MTRX set to 1 and the SD resolutions set to 0.

Primetime

I am sure its Axis now that I remember..The reason I mention Maxtrix, it that the axis is a COLOR MATRIX, not sure what the MTRX is

Axis to 1 is color decoder fix, it removes, as mentioned, the redpush

RY-R, RY-B, GY-R, GY-B is actualy your flexible color decoder fix, this is more to fine tune it and probably much more appreciated by calibrators


_

seems many of us are under the assumption that CIE and Color Decoders are related.they are not, the CIE points are the points related to the GREYSCALE RGB to help you track D65, Color bar adjustment is simply aligning the color decoder which it does not matter if you have D65 or anything other greyscale point, you can have a perfect color decoder but an imperfect CIE point...In addition, its nice to know that the Mits3000U that I have has it where if D65 is good, you also dialed in your color decoder...but that not the norm..
Your facts are a bit mixed up. CIE points have nothing to do with grayscale calibration.

CIE chart(diagram) = chromaticity diagram where display's "default/fixed" primary colors are ploted as a point using x,y values.

The triangle formed by these 3 color points represents the display's color gamut. Colors that it can reproduce. As you know, secondaries are a combination of the primaries.

Color decoder = converts incoming color signal(chrominance) from source back into RGB signals(display's primaries)

Being that a display's primary colors are "fixed", it's the reason that most of the time you have to live with it. Only time it is adjustable is when Color Decoder controls are available, typically reserved for high end sets/projectors.

Grayscale(technically a white signal at different levels of illumination) is created using a balance of equal amounts of R,G and B. Keep in mind that the amounts R,G,B come from the sets "default primaries". Hence why grayscale calibration has nothing to do with calibrating the "color points", that can only be done with decoder controls.

SO folks - Color and Tint have NOTHING to due with CIE points...so do not try to adjust it to the CIE points..unless you have the gamut control like some projectors seem to have
Correct, color/tint are not used to calibrate decoder error...BUT they do have an "effective" response on its points, not a direct change. Effective meaning that the primaries are still technically "fixed" at their default locations. For example, you can "desaturate" the colors(moving the color points closer) by bringing color control down. On the other hand you cannot "add" more pure color by bringing color control up to compensate for color that doesn't exist in a display with 80% of a reference color gamut.

Tint as well has an "effective" change on secondaries, where it moves them along the triangle lines.

Here is a link to what I found on MTRX.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/archive/index.php/t-365548.html

Which by default the settings are all correct for SD and HD resolutions on all inputs on my TV, it was just me who messed it up.

So are you saying I can use the RY and GY settings to fine tune my RGB points on the CIE? Or are we speaking different things here, decoder and CIE again?

HDHolic, on Panasonic Color and Tint shift both secondary and (surprise) primary colors.

My understanding is there are base fixed rgb, say, native subpixels, phosphors, whatever. Their combination creates grayscale AND their other combination creates primary colors. I haven't checked, but if Panasonic builds grayscale out of primaries instead, it would be madness.

Just out of curiosity, what was the dE on the Ruby at 5 IRE? I was able to get 10-100 IRE at dE of 0-3, but at 5 IRE I couldn't get lower than a dE of 8, at least not without raising the dE of the other ranges which I was not prepared to do.
Hi,

dE at 5 is 4 in the given example... here is a link to picture. you'll see steady dE of 1. http://www.homecinema-fr.com/ColorHCFR/images/Pearl-IrisOff-try3.JPG
Obviously low reading is especially hard and it is common do have variations.
That measure session gives 4 dE at 5 IRE, the next one was 7 dE, another one 6 dE...

The .chc file is here : http://www.homecinema-fr.com/ColorHCFR/images/PearlUser3.chc

Trust me, the picture is very nice ;)

--Patrice

Just when I thought I was getting in to understanding CIE points and Color Decoder, I get sucked back in no-mans land...One thing that seems apparent is that not all rules apply, seems some color and tint can have an effect on CIE...


I still think that CIE points that are off should not be fixed through regular color and tint but the Gamut controls, if available..

Of course, no doubts at all about this.

--Patrice

HDHolic, on Panasonic Color and Tint shift both secondary and (surprise) primary colors.

My understanding is there are base fixed rgb, say, native subpixels, phosphors, whatever. Their combination creates grayscale AND their other combination creates primary colors. I haven't checked, but if Panasonic builds grayscale out of primaries instead, it would be madness.

Woa, now I'm really confused. How can you possibly change a color primary in a plasma display? It makes three colors period. Red, Green, and Blue, and as far as I know the particular frequencey of each of these is determined by the choice of phosphor used and could never be adjusted in the field. Therefore, how can you build grayscale out of anything *but* color primaries?

I'm not entirely sure HOW they do it, but it can certainly be done.

It should be noted that they are not completely moveable. On my plasma, and I suspect all of them are going to be about the same, there is a slider for each primary / secondary.

The GREEN slider lets you move the position of green either towards yellow or cyan, effectively moving the point of the triangle. In my case my original green was at 10 o'clock with respect to the standard green position, i.e. shifted towards CYAN and way oversaturated. I was able to "move" it by adjusting the slider all the way to yellow to the point where it is now close to 12 o'clock, i.e. pretty much directly above the green reference and much less over saturated.

I brought this up some time ago in post 1478. The CIE diagram is measuring the saturation (purity) of the colors. The color control is for setting intensity. While this has some effect on the CIE triangle, you should not use the CIE triangle as a reference for setting color and tint. Rather, you need color gamut controls for this.

I'm not entirely sure HOW they do it, but it can certainly be done.

It should be noted that they are not completely moveable. On my plasma, and I suspect all of them are going to be about the same, there is a slider for each primary / secondary.

The GREEN slider lets you move the position of green either towards yellow or cyan, effectively moving the point of the triangle. In my case my original green was at 10 o'clock with respect to the standard green position, i.e. shifted towards CYAN and way oversaturated. I was able to "move" it by adjusting the slider all the way to yellow to the point where it is now close to 12 o'clock, i.e. pretty much directly above the green reference and much less over saturated.

On my PRO1140, if I move green toward yellow to get closer to the reference point, cyan then falls off the triangle (either the measured gamut or the reference). And the green ends up under the triangle (under saturated). With cyan kinda hanging out there alone, the picture is clearly affected in somewhat 'off' colors that the tint control cannot help. Same with red and magenta (though this really impacts flesh tones).

I suspect that in many cases, even with primary adjustments, you may have to live with what you got. My next attempt will be to pull green and red to as close as I can get to the reference, without leaving cyan and magenta behind. Then tweak the secondaries as needed. Does this make sense, or am I all wet?

Unrelated to this: can someone answer my previous questions about ColorHCFR: do I use CRT setting for my plasma and Spyder2 for my SypderTV meter? My first attempt with this software was way under-reporting green during the gray scale setup.

-Dave

IIRC, cyan was always off the triangle for me.

I'd have to double check to see if it was closer before or after I moved green.

One thing that seems apparent is that not all rules apply, seems some color and tint can have an effect on CIE...


I still think that CIE points that are off should not be fixed through regular color and tint but the Gamut controls, if available..
Not sure what rules you refer to but I did explain that color/tint affect the color points, and that color/tint ARE NOT the controls to compensate for decoder errors.

Laric - thanks for the details on the Ruby calibration. Looks fantastic! Nice CIE chart too. BTW I hope in 1.3 you will take me up on the suggestion to replace the "bubbles" on the CIE chart with something much more precise such as cross-hairs.

My understanding is there are base fixed rgb, say, native subpixels, phosphors, whatever. Their combination creates grayscale...
Yes, their combination creates grayscale.

AND their other combination creates primary colors.
???...Nothing combined creates primary colors. Anything color related is derived from R,G and B, PERIOD.

I haven't checked, but if Panasonic builds grayscale out of primaries instead, it would be madness.
Please, explain what you mean...You contradict yourself from your 1st sentence.

Woa, now I'm really confused. How can you possibly change a color primary in a plasma display? It makes three colors period. Red, Green, and Blue, and as far as I know the particular frequencey of each of these is determined by the choice of phosphor used and could never be adjusted in the field. Therefore, how can you build grayscale out of anything *but* color primaries?
My current understanding that a primary is not a pure red, green or blue phosphor (as I thought too). A primary is built out of some other base rgb components, whether these rgb are native phosphors or "default primaries" or whatever else, something that does not change. Meaning, that when you ask for pure red, you can have other phosphors besides red to be turned on. You can have your red primary mixed out of all three components.

So adjusting the color decoder or, in some cases, color/tint it is possible to shift primary points. Grayscale is built out of base "default primaries" too, therefore adjusting grayscale does not affect "actual" primaries/secondaries and vice versa.

http://www.avguide.com/features/calibration/calib-tpv73.php

After aligning the Color and Tint controls, the primaries remained constant while the secondaries changed, indicating a color-decoding error in the system.
Did they mean that primaries should have moved too, or that secondaries should not have moved? Don't think it is the latter, what is the point in color/tint then?

Bill Blackwell writes in his HOW-TO:
Color – this can be thought of as changing the balance between red and green on the y axis.
Tint – this can be thought of as changing the balance on the x-axis (between red/green and blue).
To set color and tint properly, you will need color gamut measurements and a lot of patience.

My current understanding that a primary is not a pure red, green or blue phosphor (as I thought too). A primary is built out of some other base rgb components, whether these rgb are native phosphors or "default primaries" or whatever else, something that does not change. Meaning, that when you ask for pure red, you can have other phosphors besides red to be turned on. You can have your red primary mixed out of all three components.

So adjusting the color decoder or, in some cases, color/tint it is possible to shift primary points. Grayscale is built out of base "default primaries" too, therefore adjusting grayscale does not affect "actual" primaries/secondaries and vice versa.

The monitor only makes 3 colors R, G, B. If we perform blending operation on these to get another set (call it R', G', B') where each of the "new primaries" is a combination of the original native phosphor colors, then this transformation would be (at least in mathematical terms) called a change-of-basis operation which is typically implemented by the following matrix operation:

R' . . A B C . R
G' = .D E F . G
B' . . G H I . B

However, the new color set may not be able to produce the all colors in the original set (Gamut?). From what I'm reading here, this sounds a lot like changing the color decoder that people are describing.

How do you change the primary color on the Panasonic plasma?

Thanks

Rich

The monitor only makes 3 colors R, G, B. If we perform blending operation on these to get another set (call it R', G', B') where each of the "new primaries" is a combination of the original native phosphor colors, then this transformation would be (at least in mathematical terms) called a change-of-basis operation which is typically implemented by the following matrix operation:

R' . . A B C . R
G' = .D E F . G
B' . . G H I . BWhy are you using 3x3 matrix, considering that CIE plane has only two coordinates? Whatever. My understanding is that R',G',B' basis is used for color decoding, while grayscale is still rendered using default R,G,B.
However, the new color set may not be able to produce the all colors in the original set (Gamut?).Yep. The gamut triangle is either "shrunken" or "rotated", at least with my TV.
From what I'm reading here, this sounds a lot like changing the color decoder that people are describing.I still cannot discern the difference between color decoding and color management. I know that some TVs like Hitachi Director's series, have both types of controls.
How do you change the primary color on the Panasonic plasma?As I said, using color/tint.

Rich,
I think the capability of modifying the color gamut is unique to certain displays, including Pioneer Elite plasmas and some DLP projectors. I don't think it's possible in Panasonic plasmas.

-Steve

I am feeding my plasma (NEC which is the same as Pioneer Elite) via DVI/HDMI. As such I do not have a tint or colour control and the colour decoder is bypassed because I am sending primary colour components.

The default gamut for the set is not precisely aligned with either the 709 or 601 triangles.

The thing to remember is that for plasmas, black is actually made up of some slightly residual colour because the sub-pixels need to always be slightly energized. So, through a combination of drive currents applied to the various sub-pixels you can see how it's possible to move a primary.

Once you have done that, you now have a basis for what the RGB primaries are. As rpauls pointed out, this is probably done as a vector transformation.

Presumably now the gamut-adjusted RGB is what is used to generate grey. My experience suggests that this is the case because adjusting the primary / secondary positions does not affect the greyscale at all.

I still cannot discern the difference between color decoding and color management. I know that some TVs like Hitachi Director's series, have both types of controls.

Color decoder would be changing the luminance value of a color (R,G,B and C,M,Y for some non standard color wheel DLP such as the Mits RP DLP) for a given stimuli

Color management would be the actual changing of the color. For example moving Red toward magenta or yellow and also pulling it inside or moving it outside the triangle.

Color decoder = luminance of the color
Color management = color of the color

I think I got that right :rolleyes:

Should not we move this theoretical/practical discussion from ColorHCFR thread somewhere else? Just a thought ;)
I am feeding my plasma (NEC which is the same as Pioneer Elite) via DVI/HDMI. As such I do not have a tint or colour control and the colour decoder is bypassed because I am sending primary colour components.
This aligns with Bill Blackwell's remark:
Very few TVs give you access to the Color and Tint controls when they are fed a digital signal.On the other hand, on my current Panasonic and on previous Pioneer both Color and Tint were accessible despite that I connected my DVD player via HDMI. On Pioneer Color/Tint did not affect grayscale (and they are not supposed to!). I haven't verified this for Panasonic, but I hope its grayscale is not affected too.

The thing to remember is that for plasmas, black is actually made up of some slightly residual colour because the sub-pixels need to always be slightly energized. So, through a combination of drive currents applied to the various sub-pixels you can see how it's possible to move a primary.Either this, or you can turn down the appropriate bias a notch, like you suggested me to, and it worked beautifully, my blacks are now real black. When I add red bias, I see red subpixels energized, when I turn it down I don't see any color subelements. The catch in my case that red subpixels are turned on only when my overall contrast is higher than certan number, therefore for different white level I was getting different grayscale, I don't think this is what someone really wants :)

Presumably now the gamut-adjusted RGB is what is used to generate grey. My experience suggests that this is the case because adjusting the primary / secondary positions does not affect the greyscale at all.It seems to me that these two sentenses contradict with each other. If R',G',B' basis is used for grayscale, then the grayscale should shift.

I think we are mixing theory, decoding and hardware quirks of non-ideal TVs. You can shift your grayscale by adding red, green or blue sub-pixels to your pure black, but I find this to be an implementation defect. I think that in ideal situation it should not work like this.

On the other hand, changing color/tint on my TV shifts primaries/secondaries without affecting grayscale. I don't think that this is a defect, at least I believe that secondaries SHOULD shift, isn't this what tint is for? I don't know how to judge the fact that primaries shift too, is it a defect or not.

Either this, or you can turn down the appropriate bias a notch, like you suggested me to, and it worked beautifully, my blacks are now real black. When I add red bias, I see red subpixels energized, when I turn it down I don't see any color subelements.

The energized level I am referring to is even lower than what is visible. All plasma's have a little "glow" even when they are displaying 100% black.

It seems to me that these two sentenses contradict with each other. If R',G',B' basis is used for grayscale, then the grayscale should shift.


I would be careful about using R'G'B' since those have defined meanings in the world of colour. Poynton might smack us. :)

That being said, I think I'll have to double check what I said there WRT to the primaries. Adjusting the secondaries definitely doesn't affect the greyscale but I have been running with adjusted primaries for a while now so I can't say for sure if changing the primary location would affect the grey scale. Intuitively I think it would.

I would be careful about using R'G'B' since those have defined meanings in the world of colour. Poynton might smack us.Point taken. Need to read more literature to use proper terminology. I ordered Poynton's book, should be a good read.

Hey guys, i know that this has been answered before but really quick i have my dvd player connecte to my Sony LCD RPTV via component out. what setup level should i be using 0IRE or 7.5IRE?

Thanks again guys!
Carmine.

Guys, let's bring this back to a discussion about ColorHCFR.

Yes, please continue calibration discussions here

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=786966&page=1&pp=30

or start another thread. We are trying to keep this on ColorHCFR.

A suggestion for the ColorHCFR team.

While using the "continuous measures" window, on several occassions I was searching for method to pause the measurements, perhaps I missed something but blocking all light from the meter appears to be the only recourse. Myself and others may benefit from a one click solution to pausing measurements and screen scroll.

In the same continuous measures vain, the ability to page or scroll back to previous screen data would be an appreciated software tweak.

Thanks for your software and enthusiasm.

Since I am using GetGray and ColorHCFR to calibrate my display doesn't that insure me that my DVD and video input for my DVD player is properly calibrated? YES.

The problem I have is what kind of assurance do I have that my video imput for HD and SD will be calibrated properly when using the same settings?

Are all networks and cable providers required to send signals within certain spec tolerances? If so, are these tolerances the same as DVD?

Hmmm... I think I should be looking for a way to get test patterns deivered to my display by my cable provider so I can DVR them and use them to properly calibrate that video input.

Your thoughts

That being said, I think I'll have to double check what I said there WRT to the primaries. Adjusting the secondaries definitely doesn't affect the greyscale but I have been running with adjusted primaries for a while now so I can't say for sure if changing the primary location would affect the grey scale. Intuitively I think it would.
In theory, when you adjust the color decoder, you are adjusting the balance between primaries that consitute a secondary (like tug of war). As a result, when you change color/tint, you should not be changing anything about the primaries, just how they mix for other colors. In theory.

Color management generally works by desaturating a primary in order to steer it. How much control you get, and whether it produces unwanted artifacts is a function of the bit depth used and where the true native primaries are located. In an ideal world, you have a much higher bit depth in the CMS than you are using for video, and your native primaries are way oversaturated versus your "biggest" standard.

The section on color decoding is one of the areas I have targeted for radically beefing up in the next full version of the CalMAN manual.

Bill

The problem I have is what kind of assurance do I have that my video imput for HD and SD will be calibrated properly when using the same settings? Are all networks and cable providers required to send signals within certain spec tolerances? If so, are these tolerances the same as DVD? ... Your thoughtsMy thoughts are like this: do you really care for TV feed quality? There is nothing but senseless junk on TV anyway, well maybe besides some Discovery Theater nature shots and Playboy babes. It would be nice if the babes had proper skin tone, but if not I would not care much. In general TV programming is crap, so I am interested mostly in my DVD+TV calibration.

Keeping my reply remotely on topic, I am interested whether professional calibration equipment includes pattern generators with bunch of outputs including RF output? Or, if ColorHCFR could generate all needed patterns, I would upgrade my laptop, getting one with both DVI/HDMI and S-video outputs. Then I would get a SVideo-to-RF converter and voila! Your thoughts ;)

Thanks Ungermann... I do care about SD & HD. It's 90% of what we watch. So I'm hoping that when my cable provider sends me the signal, it is calibrated to a standard so my settings created with ColorHCFR are valid for it as well.

On topic: the grayscale patterns on HCFR DVD are marked in IRE, and the black one is marked as 0IRE. Should not it be marked as 0% Amplitude instead, considering that black is usually 7.5IRE?

Not sure what rules you refer to but I did explain that color/tint affect the color points, and that color/tint ARE NOT the controls to compensate for decoder errors.


with a Mits3000U - the CIE points, if you hit a D65, then you get basically a perfect color decoder/CIE (there is no color decoder adj in this model), Mits built this into this...if you dont have D65, you dont have a perfect color decoder. So basically this would be for Digital disply where those features alot times are locked out using DVI or HDMI.

With many CRTs, you actually shut color and tint off or put to midscale when calibrating, this is a step that many calibrators do. Then the color decoder is set using an oscilliscope (not all calibrators use this), or AVIA color bar pattern/filters

In theory, color and tint controls should never be used for CIE points because those only affect the Color on Color and not the greyscale points, unless you significantly reduce or increase them - but once again, it can dependent on the display - therefore not all rules apply - there is no one way to calibrate all dsplays..There are basic fundamentals but as techonology has moved on, so have some of those fundamentals have change, ie, setting contrast, brightness, greyscale (DLP - red is usually the maxed out; CRT, Green is locked out alot of time, or is the one that is the least reduced)

..

On topic: the grayscale patterns on HCFR DVD are marked in IRE, and the black one is marked as 0IRE. Should not it be marked as 0% Amplitude instead, considering that black is usually 7.5IRE?

Yes, but most people probably heard of IRE rather than the new 0%amplitude. So long as ColorHCFR designed the pattern to the software -I wouldnt worry too much about it. I would worry on using other DVD's that have it...and not their own..but you are definitely correct

I have a question for Patrice and his team working on colorhcfr.

For calibrating I use a DTP94 with the patterns DVD provided on the colorhcfr website. (version 1.1.15).

When measuring a gray-scale set of readings and enabling "average many reads on dark measurements" the period of of taking measures at low ire levels takes a long time. During that time the DVD skips to the next ire pattern automatically after 10-15 seconds.
If I hit 'pause' on my new dvd player it displays a 'still' message (white text in a black box in the upper left corner). I point my DTP-94 at the middle of the screen so I hope that this text does not interfear with the measurements.

My question is: Is it possible to change the 'pause' time of the DVD pictures so that they stay longer on the screen or can it be changed that you always have to press 'next'.

Jos

Hi Hugh
While using the "continuous measures" window, on several occassions I was searching for method to pause the measurements, perhaps I missed something but blocking all light from the meter appears to be the only recourse. Myself and others may benefit from a one click solution to pausing measurements and screen scroll.

It's already done in the future 1.22 release, you will have this very soon (using F8 key)

In the same continuous measures vain, the ability to page or scroll back to previous screen data would be an appreciated software tweak.

Good idea. I think we could put it in future 1.3 release, which will be rich in ergonomy enhancements ;)

Regards
Georges

I just ordered the SyderTV express. I can't wait to try this software to calibrate my LCD projector! (It should work right....)

Hello,

ColorHCFR v1.22 is now available. As v1.21 it is essentially a bug fix release, anyway we added a few things... (see below)

You can get the v1.22 from the web site : http://www.homecinema-fr.com/colorimetre/index_en.php
or, if you allready use v1.2.x, you can download the new version using the "Advanced" menu, "Updates" --> "Download updated software".

We would like to thanks you all for your support, and add special thansk to our beta testers both in French side and here on AVS Forums.

We now pursue the v1.3 branch of project and don't plan to release any new version until then... (unless a big bug is raised ;)). Will give details on v1.3 later on.


Improvements / Changes in v1.22 are :

- Correct label when asking for gray patterns when using simultaneous measures (multiple probes).

- It is now possible to select/open a view from the build in browser.

- Removed message "prepare your pattern and hit OK box" in single reading mode. As well, can do single (or continous) measure using a key. "F7" start a single measure. "F8" start or stop continous ones.

- Improved SpyderII support (latency time), also more flexible parameters settings read time can be increased and both checkbox can be set.

- EyeOne Display now fully supported.

- Improved support of both EyeOne Beamer and Display, improved probe calibration management,

- Simultaneous measures now possible with any probes, including the two EyeOne.

- Can use any number of probes (hope you have loads of USB ports :D)

- Fix bug that crash app when trying to open a .chc file from an internet link.

- New pattern measure algorithm added, this check a valid measure was taken and re-issue measure otherwise (only for ColorHCFR Probe)

- Saturation measures bug fixed (some incorrect reading in SD mode)

- New Gamma option available, identical to « Camera Gamma » but offset value can be set.

- « PAL/Secam » ColorSpace added (Although still useless ;))

- Default RGB level management (depending on color space choice), 16-235 by default, except for sRGB (0-255), can be manually overridden.


Enjoy ;)
--ColorHCFR Team

3rd try at these questions:

Can someone answer my previous questions about ColorHCFR: do I use CRT setting for my plasma and Spyder2 for my SpyderTV meter? My first attempt with this software was way under-reporting green during the gray scale setup (but looks ok with the Colorimeter spreadsheet).

-Dave

Forget CRT mode. Use LCD mode with filter/baffle on.

Hey guys, just found something of interest on Accupel's website. If anyone is running a calibration with SDTV REC.601 references, then the primary color settings within HCFR are incorrect. If you notice when choosing your METER under CALIBRATION in your Meter's PARAMETERS tab you will see PRIMARIES CHROMACITIES. The coordinates that is defaulted are for REC. 709 & changing to REC. 601 has no effect, the chromacities remain the same. What should be done, change the MODEL to PERSONNALISE and change x0.640,y0.330 to x0.630,y0.340 for RED, x0.300,y0.600 to x0.310,y0.595 for GREEN & x0.150, y0.060 to x0.155,y0.070 for BLUE.

Hope this helps guys!
Carmine.

noizemaker, which version are you using? The primary points change correctly for me.

I just checked 1.22 and I'm sure that they moved in 1.21 as well.

"F7" will either start a single measure or start continuous ones ("F8" stopping continuous measures).

Actually F7 starts "only" single measure. F8 starts and stops "only" continuous measures. This applies with Continuous Measures checked or unchecked. I think this works better anyways :D !

let me go back & check jvincent. i'm using 1.22.

if i'm incorrect, i'm sorry for the post guys!

Carmine.

JVincent, you are correct, MY MISTAKE GUYS!!!! i'm sorry for any confusion i may have caused!

Carmine.

Hey guys, just found something of interest on Accupel's website. If anyone is running a calibration with SDTV REC.601 references, then the primary color settings within HCFR are incorrect. If you notice when choosing your METER under CALIBRATION in your Meter's PARAMETERS tab you will see PRIMARIES CHROMACITIES. The coordinates that is defaulted are for REC. 709 & changing to REC. 601 has no effect, the chromacities remain the same. What should be done, change the MODEL to PERSONNALISE and change x0.640,y0.330 to x0.630,y0.340 for RED, x0.300,y0.600 to x0.310,y0.595 for GREEN & x0.150, y0.060 to x0.155,y0.070 for BLUE.

Hope this helps guys!
Carmine.
Just checked this and the points indeed move to the correct location on the CIE chart (mouse over the points and you'll see the coordinates).

But you're right that it doesn't change in the Calibration tab though. Shouldn't affect anything...I hope:)

Patrice and team - congrats on the v1.22 release! Regarding this item:
"Improved support of both EyeOne Beamer and Display, improved probe calibration management"

Can you please comment more specifically on what exactly was improved? What does improved support and improved probe calibration management mean exactly? I am only interested in how this affects the EyeOne beamer. Thanks!

Hi,

Well, to be clear the improvement are on the way the required internal calibration is asked, also in handling proper setup for Display and correct behaviour of probes in simultaneous measures mode.

There is no change in measures results and how they are handled ;)

--Patrice

- « PAL/Secam » ColorSpace added (Although still useless ;))

Enjoy ;)
--ColorHCFR Team



Can you please comment more specifically on what exactly mean "Although still useless" ?


I understand PAL/SECAM = Rec 601 + reference points EBU 3213.....


Thanks

For measuring the gray scale tracking. Why can't I turn my DTP94 away from the screen and have it face the projector (about 16 ft away) to take all the measurements? When I do this I get much more accurate results and the read times are much faster.

Is there a problem with reading the gray scale and gamma this way? Will I damage my probe?

For measuring the gray scale tracking. Why can't I turn my DTP94 away from the screen and have it face the projector (about 16 ft away) to take all the measurements? When I do this I get much more accurate results and the read times are much faster.

Is there a problem with reading the gray scale and gamma this way? Will I damage my probe?

Yes, you do... This is a direct measure . It's ok and no problem with the probe.


If you turn the sonde face the screen you are doing an indirect measure. This kind of measure have got another factors, for example: gain of the screen, etc


Regards..

Okay for color and tint, what you want to do is read your primaries 1st, then adjust COLOR in your user menu until you hit Red by the RED X, Blue by the Blue X, and Green by the Green X in the CIE DIagram (or as close as you can get with in the triangle points).

Stupid question, but what pattern do you throw when you read and adjust primaries? (getgray DVD) :o

Stupid question, but what pattern do you throw when you read and adjust primaries? (getgray DVD) :o


You use a color/tint pattern from DVE, Avia, GeyGray, etc and use a blue filter or turn off red and green CRTs and adjust that way. You do not want to use look at the CIE triangle and adjust color/tint that way.

I have now calibrated all my disply devices using ColorHCFR and a DTP94 and for the first time they show colors the same. Great program, thank you for providing it! Questions/suggestions:

1. For color saturation calibration, would it be possible to use the program instead of using blue filters (which I don't think are accurate enough)? If not, if possible add this feature.

2. I would like a mode to step through the whole calibration process just clicking a single key. The DVD should also be displaying the required patterns in the same sequence so only the skip forward key is needed. This would speed up the calibration process considerably. (It should still be possible to make a specific measurement, just like it is today.)

Can you please comment more specifically on what exactly mean "Although still useless" ?
Because nowadays it is pretty unlikely you will use any PAL or SECAM signal on your projector... But who knows... anyway, it is there ;)

--Patrice

1. For color saturation calibration, would it be possible to use the program instead of using blue filters (which I don't think are accurate enough)? If not, if possible add this feature.



If you have a CRT TV or projector you can turn off red and green and then don't have to worry about filters. If you have a different display type then you are stuck with filters.

Do any of the new 1.22 Eye One modes support the ambient diffuser?

Not that I saw.

Because nowadays it is pretty unlikely you will use any PAL or SECAM signal on your projector... But who knows... anyway, it is there ;)

--Patrice

Thanks for the return


But now I've got another problem.. I think. Laric, do you Know if there is any problem with DVD small patterns?

Can you look at the CIE inside the file?? ( CRT TV with DTP-94) ¿¿??


http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=73471&stc=1 :eek:



and if I changed ONLY the patterns ( full window patterns) and I got this


http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=73472&stc=1
CRT TV - full window patterns.zip:)


I've tried a lot of things, but I always get the same results

small DVD patterns ¿¿??
full screen DVD patterns, ok

I haven't moved the probe...the TV controls... nothing :(

Regards

PD: I am using the HCFR PAL patterns (version 1.1.15)

I installed the latest 1.22 version and now I can no longer get Color HCFR to work with my Eye One Pro. When I select Eye One Pro in the Calibration mode and click on the Calibrate internal sensor offsets, a dialog pops up with "Unknown Error" as the message. I made sure that the EyeOne.dll file is still in the program directory. There are no related events in the windows event log.

If I select Eye One Display - CRT or Eye One Display - LCD as the Calibration mode, I get a different error: "EyeOne.dll returned an error during initialization. Device not connected". Again, note that my sensor is an Eye One Pro and not a Display, so the error in this case may be appropriate (?). I verified that my Eye One is not the problem, since it is initializing fine using my excel AccuCal spreadsheet. Please advise...

I will try uninstalling and re-installing 1.21 and see if it still works. If not, I'll repost.

I verified that 1.21 does still work...

My EyeOne.dll is version 3.1.0.103. I'm downloading the latest version of the Eye One Match software and copy its dll over and see if this fixes the problem.

Hey guys. I want to calibrate another input on my TV for just B&W material. Which illuminant do i choose in HCFR is it D50, D55 or Illuminant E?

Thanks guys!
Carmine.

belmore, can you check again with 1.22 and let me know if the process called "CHCFRDX2.exe" is running when you get the message ?
If it is, can you kill it and try a second time ?

Whisper2, I'm not aware of any problem with DVD small patterns.
You sure the probe was right on the patterns ?
Will look at your files.

--Patrice

I don't see "CHCFRDX2.exe" running in the task manager.

I installed the latest EyeOne.dll, version 3.3.1.115 and I'm still getting the "Unknown error" with version 1.2.2.

Just checked this and the points indeed move to the correct location on the CIE chart (mouse over the points and you'll see the coordinates).

But you're right that it doesn't change in the Calibration tab though. Shouldn't affect anything...I hope:)
The calibration tab in probe settings is only "valid" for our own probe, use to calibrate the probe, it has no real meaning and will disappear for other probes.

This will be different in v1.3.

Of course, reference points in CIE diagram are fine ;)

--Patrice

Belmore, thanks for info. I pass this to some Team member that use EyeOne Beamer...
May be a version issue, I dunno, afaik two beta testers use same probe as well as our expert Michel...

--Patrice

On topic: the grayscale patterns on HCFR DVD are marked in IRE, and the black one is marked as 0IRE. Should not it be marked as 0% Amplitude instead, considering that black is usually 7.5IRE?Yes, but most people probably heard of IRE rather than the new 0%amplitude. So long as ColorHCFR designed the pattern to the software -I wouldnt worry too much about it. I would worry on using other DVD's that have it...and not their own..but you are definitely correct.
IREs are incorrect, because a DVD program does not know about actual output voltages of a DVD player, also for DVI/HDMI IREs seem to make no sense at all. I think, that test patterns should be renamed to Percent Stimulus or something like that, simply because IREs are incorrect.

You are correct and we allready said so... Having said that, it is marginal, I doubt anybody still output pure NTSC signal (with 7.5IRE). Nowadays most of us have progressive scan, if not HD or upscaling setups...

BTW, our DVD (as well as getGrey) perfectly fit with the labeling and signal, turn IRE to % in your mind and that's it...

This will be change to percent in future release, we did not changed it yet as we don't want to redo the helps for such a small thing in 1.2.x.

--Patrice

Hi belmore

What version of Windows do you use ? And what kind of PC ? Is is an old machine with no multithreading capabilities ?

Regards
Georges

Whisper2, I'm not aware of any problem with DVD small patterns.
You sure the probe was right on the patterns ?
Will look at your files.

--Patrice

yes, the DPT was on the test patterns. When I got this CIE, I verified a lot times the position of the sonde , and I did a lot of measures with the same bad results (only if I change from small to full patterns I got good results..)



I'll try again when I can ( the CRT TV is not mine, it is from my parents)

Regards

I am very glad somebody pointed me to this thread before I dropped $400 on SpyderTV Pro. In fact now after reading 57 pages worth of info I'm going to get the Monaco Optix-XR instead of an S2.

I would appreciate it if a few lingering questions could be cleared up while I wait for my probe to arrive. Let me first mention that I have a Toshiba 50HP16 plasma.

1) Am I right that brightness and contrast must be eyeball'd and there is no way to probe it to see where it should be unlike like gamut or grayscale?

2) Same question as above for color/tint (saturation/hue). I have done the Blue-Bars calibration with the AVIA DVD by eyeballing it through a Blue filter and have what I think is a very close approximation. Is there an empirical way to test this with ColorHCFR?

3) Using Component inputs, in the service menu I get the additional options of altering R/G/B Drive and Cutoff. If I have understood correctly, these drive/cutoff (gain/cuts) settings is what I need to fiddle with to get my grayscale to D65 and *not* to align my CIE chart?

4) I don't see any control that mentions gamma in either the user or service menu, however in the user menu I do have the option to set the temperature to either Cool/Medium/Warm. The TV manual only mentions that changing the temperature to Cool/Medium/Warm will change the "picture quality" to Bluish/Neutral/Reddish respectively. I've read in other threads on this forum that "Warm" is 6500K. This puzzles me as I thought the goal of ColorHCFR was to get to 6500K and not just an option you can choose from. So what do I want to choose here and is this setting related to gamma in any way?

5) I'm mostly calibrating for use with my Xbox360 which doubles as my DVD player (no HD-DVD addon yet.) I have both the VGA and Component cables for my Xbox. I noticed that the VGA user menu does not let me alter Color or Tint but instead has Red/Green/Blue. Additionally the service menu gives me the additional option of R/G/B Drive (no cutoff.) Since I'm fairly sure that the R/G/B Drive settings are used for grayscale calibration, does this mean that the Red/Green/Blue settings in the user menu are for color decoder alteration and will thus allow me to align my CIE chart as well? If this is the case it seems like VGA is the way to go.

I really appreciate any help and advice you can give me. I look forward to becomming an active member of the ColorHCFR community, thanks!

SiegeX,

Here are some pointers.

1. Correct, they need to be set by eye. The trick to setting brightness for a plasma is to set it so that 0% (full black) has no sub-pixels dithering. Get right up close to the screen and look for it. For contrast you need to adjust it to get the smoothest gradations going from black to white. Note that brightness and contrast will interact so after making changes to one, double check the other.

2. I am connected via HDMI (RGB) so I use the CIE chart to set my tint (secondaries) correctly.

3. Correct. Drive affects the high levels (white) and cutoff affects the low levels (blacks).

4. Colour temp settings are just presets for the drives/cutoff to give a different look to the TV. They aren't gamma settings. Contrast and brightness will have a big effect on gamma.

5. When you are connected via RGB there is no colour decoding happening in the TV. That only applies when connected via component, which is why the tint/colour controls go away. I'm not sure what the RGB user menu controls do but they may be duplicates of the SM drive settings. You'll have to try and see.

Thanks for the pointers and clarifications! A bit of follow up if you don't mind.

1) I'll have to redo my brightness/contrast since I did it according to the AVIA suggestion which for brightness is set it so the 2nd black line barely disappears. As for the contrast, I actually went into the service menu to raise the max contrast since putting contrast to max did not make any of the two moving white bars disappear into the white background. Raising the max allowed me to get to this point and I backed it off a few ticks so that both white bars just became visible. Is this technique adequate?

2) Since it appears I have no way to change color decoder settings how do you suggest I try to align my CIE chart for both primaries and secondaries. I'd like to do this for both the component and VGA inputs (if its even possible.) Also, as you mentioned VGA is sending straight RGB info so the TV does not have to do decoding so does this mean that my CIE chart better be pretty damn close to full alignment, else I'm screwed?

3) Nothing much to say about this, thanks for confirming.

4) Thinks makes alot of sense since my service menu has drive(N), drive(C) and drive(W) for each primary color (same for cutoff). I wasn't sure what the differences were but now I can see that 'C' is for Cool, 'W' for Warm and 'N' must be for Normal even though the temperature setting calls this "Medium." I think ill choose Medium to screw with.

5) I think you're right, I had my suspicions that the R/G/B settings in the User menu is the same as the R/G/B Drive settings in the service menu. The fact that no color decoding is done in VGA just validates this.

Thanks again

Hi belmore

What version of Windows do you use ? And what kind of PC ? Is is an old machine with no multithreading capabilities ?

Regards
Georges

It's Windows XP Tablet Edition 2005. It's up-to-date as far as updates. It's a Gateway laptop with a 1.5G Intel CPU and 512MB memory. Its a couple of years old but certainly it supports multi-threading, etc. It just doesn't dual CPUs...

I am a software developer and have access to Visual Studio, etc. If I can help in debugging or anything, let me know. I'd be glad to help.

SiegeX.

1. Avia isn't the best for setting contrast/brightness on plasmas. GetGray is much better. Setting contrast is the tough part because depending on where you set it you can get colour shifting.

2. My plasma lets me move primaries / secondaries so you should see if you can do that for yours somewhere in the service menu for the VGA input.

I installed Color HCFR 1.22 on another laptop and received the same error when I tried to calibrate my i1 Pro (unknown error). This laptop is an HP pavilion ze4300 and is running Window XP Home SP2. It has an AMD Athlon XP 2000+ CPU and 256 MB of memory. Its an older laptop than the other, but again not ancient.

Again, my i1 Pro works perfectly on both laptops using AccuCal and on the tablet using Color HCFR 1.21 (I haven't tried 1.21 on the HP, but I have no reason to believe that it won't work).

EDIT:

In case it is significant, my i1 Pro is part no. 36.72.45. Its a REV B.

Quick question regarding 1.22, is it just a setting or is the Luminance histogram no longer a curve but a straight line?

Thanks guys.
Carmine.

Right click on it and uncheck the "Logarithmic view" ;)

We defaulted to log view as we think it is way easier to use... But you can change and your default will be stored ;)

--Patrice

belmore , one thing to check, there may be confusion due to the way we allow to select between EyeOne Beamer and Display... (we know it is currently a bit misleading)

You first chose the Probe (initila screen) but here you only have "EyeOne" choice (no differences between Display and Beamer).
Then, you go to the "Eye One" tab on the EyeOne Parameters Screen, and then chose the proper "probe" in the "Calibration mode" drop down.
It must be "Eye One pro" in your case.

Can you double check doing this...

--Patrice

belmore , one thing to check, there may be confusion due to the way we allow to select between EyeOne Beamer and Display... (we know it is currently a bit misleading)

You first chose the Probe (initila screen) but here you only have "EyeOne" choice (no differences between Display and Beamer).

Perhaps it's best to have them both listed separately in next release to avoid confusion and or problems.

Yes, that is the plan ;)

--Patrice

laric,

When do I File->New, I first select "DVD Manual", then "Eye One" from the sensor dropdown list and then finally, "Eye One Pro" in the Eye One Parameters dialog. Note that I get the same unknown error message regardless of whether the sensor is connected or not.

My Eye One Pro came as part of the Eye One Design package - whether it is the same as an Eye One Beamer, I don't know. The design package was the cheapest way of getting an Eye One Pro.

I downloaded the latest Eye One Match application from here:

http://www.gretagmacbeth.com/products_eye-one-design_software

Note that there is a separated section for the Eye One Beamer downloads. I don't know if the software is the same or not. Perhaps, someone else can download the Match application, install it and grab the EyeOne.dll and see if they have the same problems as me. As I said, I get this "unknown error" whether the i1 is connected or not.

Afaik, other users having EyeOne pro are using the same dll you mention earlier.

I don't think there is anything wrong with drivers or probe, you said it (still) works in v1.21, as the base principle did not change, we try to track down what could be specific to v1.22.

It is a bit hard as we cannot reproduce the error so far, and beta testers did not report such problem...

--Patrice

The i1 Design and i1 Beamer Match application do appear to be the same application (they are the exact same name and size). I installed the beamer version and got the same result. Perhaps, one of your beamer testers could install this latest version of the Match application, copy the EyeOne.dll and verify that everything still works for them. I'm out of ideas.

Have you considered allowing me to debug it? I'll sign a NDA or whatever. Or is there some way detailed info about the error (exception) could be written to the event log. Maybe the exception message and a stack trace?

Is there anyone else out there with a i1 Pro that has gotten 1.22 to work for them? If so, how was your i1 Pro bundled (Design, Photo, etc)?

I know for sure three guys for whom v1.22 and Eyeone beamer works fine, this includes LovingDVD that tests a few betas.

You have an PM for debugging stuff...

--Patrice

I installed the latest 1.22 version and now I can no longer get Color HCFR to work with my Eye One Pro. When I select Eye One Pro in the Calibration mode and click on the Calibrate internal sensor offsets, a dialog pops up with "Unknown Error" as the message. I made sure that the EyeOne.dll file is still in the program directory. There are no related events in the windows event log.

If I select Eye One Display - CRT or Eye One Display - LCD as the Calibration mode, I get a different error: "EyeOne.dll returned an error during initialization. Device not connected". Again, note that my sensor is an Eye One Pro and not a Display, so the error in this case may be appropriate (?). I verified that my Eye One is not the problem, since it is initializing fine using my excel AccuCal spreadsheet. Please advise...

I will try uninstalling and re-installing 1.21 and see if it still works. If not, I'll repost.

I'm having this same problem exactly. 1.21 works great but, no luck with i1 Pro and 1.22 :( Tried on two computers with same results..


Is there anyone else out there with a i1 Pro that has gotten 1.22 to work for them? If so, how was your i1 Pro bundled (Design, Photo, etc)?

I have the Design also.

Yes, that is the plan ;)

--Patrice

:)

I know for sure it worked for me with the EyeOne beamer and an earlier beta build of 1.22. I have not tried the release 1.22 though.

Laric - what steps should I follow to upgrade from the 1.22 beta to the 1.22 release? Uninstall and reinstall? Copy some files manually etc?

ldlvr, thanks for the info, that is indeed good news (in a way !)...

LovindDVD, you just have to install v1.22 that will update your former release. (and you can go back to beta by replaing files by the one in beta zip)
I guess we all be interested by results. (you may have same problem)

ldlvr / belmore, I send you a few beta files to try out. (I think I have an idea on where the problem is)

--Patrice

ldlvr / belmore, I send you a few beta files to try out. (I think I have an idea on where the problem is)
--Patrice

I received the files and I replied with my results which are good!

Ahhhh. Ok

Thanks Patrice!!!!Right click on it and uncheck the "Logarithmic view" ;)

We defaulted to log view as we think it is way easier to use... But you can change and your default will be stored ;)

--Patrice

For EyeOne users, the problem is pretty stupid (my fault), we forget to include a component in v1.22 setup ! (CHCFRDX2.exe is missing)

We will rollout an fix setup later today.

--Patrice

Hello,

Here is a link to v1.22f setup : http://www.homecinema-fr.com/ColorHCFR/release/Setup_v1_2_2f.exe
v1.2.x users can also use the app build-in version check/download.

The only difference with v1.22 setup being the missing file (for Eyeone), We do not change version num. nor anything in app and related (and in fact former link to Setup_v1_2_2.exe also include it now).

Sorry for inconvenience...

--Patrice

Hi there. I am using a SpyderIIExpress colorimetre along with this program and GetGray to try to calibrate my Hitachi 46F500 RPTV. I've managed to calibrate the TV, according to HCFR, "fairly well." However the result's appear far from perfect (one time it had way too green of a hue... this time there's too much red). Is this due to my settings? Can anyone please tell me the parameters I should be using?

I've been choosing CRT mode, for colorspace I've been using REC601, and I've been using the Spyder with the green filter off. I believe I read that the Colorspace is dependant on the DVD player, but how do I determine which one I should be using? I have my PS2 plugged in using S-Video as one option, and a Toshiba SD - K860SU plugged into the DVI input on my TV as my primary DVD player (if it matters, the cable is actually an HDMI cable that came with the DVD player plugged in using an HDMI female to DVI male adapter... both of which are not high quality, but it's something for the time being). I could use either of which for this purpose, if anyone could inform me how to determine this info (or provide it).

Also, I have a question about setting the grayscale in general. I have 3 temperature settings: High, medium, and standard. I have read in the Hitachi tweaks thread that high is the master control, and medium and standard are offshoots from it. Should I only adjust the standard setting to D65, and leave the rest? Should I attempt to calibrate all 3 to D65? Or, I think I read in one post that a ISF tech calibrated someone's set so that High was 9300K, medium was D75, and standard was D65; should I attempt this instead?

i've had the same problems when using the Spyder meter, way too much RED. i decided it was time to to retire the Spyder & move on. I got an EYE-ONE DISPLAY 2 for christmas & the results look incredible now!

Good Luck.
Carmine.

Bah... I just spent $90 CAD on this Spyder2. Someone told me that it shouldn't make too much of a difference :(. How much does an Eye-One Display 2 cost roughly?

Edit: Nvm, just googled it, and I see it for $200+ (assuming USD)... a tad pricey, especially after 'wasting' $ on the spyder

RShannonCA-

I have the 51F510 (similar to your set) and I'm very happy with the results the Spyder2 gave me. Being a graphic designer, I'm very susceptible to inaccurate colors. Use LCD mode w/ filter on, anything else and you won't get good results.

Ok, thanks... I'll give that a go right now. It's almost midnight, but what the heck.

Any input on what colorspace I should be using?

In my case I use HD w/ my OPPO. If you can't adjust color decoder, choose the closest to measures, otherwise it doesn't really matter between SD/HD since they only differ on the P/S color points and it's the same for grayscale.

Bah... I just spent $90 CAD on this Spyder2. Someone told me that it shouldn't make too much of a difference :(. How much does an Eye-One Display 2 cost roughly?

Edit: Nvm, just googled it, and I see it for $200+ (assuming USD)... a tad pricey, especially after 'wasting' $ on the spyder

now Google the Display LT .... it's the same hardware and less pricey :D

:cool:

And it is way better (imho) ;)

--Patrice

I most certainly will, because as I followed HDholics advice, I have found the Spyder2 to be limiting yet again. I did seem to be getting a more accurate reading (when it would read), however it wasn't reading anything below 20 IRE.

When I tried a continuous measurement, the readings were all over the board: sometimes nothing, sometimes everything near 100%, and sometimes red 0%, green around 150% and blue around 46%. When I would attempt a grayscale measurement, for the 10 IRE reading, I would get an error saying "No data from Sensor" which would mess up my RGB histogram.

I tried checking off the box "Average many readings for dark areas," and that didn't help. I think I read somewhere in one of these threads that someone had the same problem... I believe someone recommended increasing the read time on dark areas. I'm going to go back and try to locate those comments, but since there's so much to read through, if anyone can inform me if they've had this problem and/or know how to resolve it, it would be appreciated. Thanks.

Does the Display lt work on dlp's also?

...it wasn't reading anything below 20 IRE.

When I tried a continuous measurement, the readings were all over the board: sometimes nothing, sometimes everything near 100%, and sometimes red 0%, green around 150% and blue around 46%. When I would attempt a grayscale measurement, for the 10 IRE reading, I would get an error saying "No data from Sensor" which would mess up my RGB histogram.
The S2 will never be able to accurately measure anything below 30IRE. Raise read time a bit and check average many reading and it WILL improve. Is it 100% accurate? Doubt it but close...

There's been some discussion as to whether the HCFR "View Images" would yield the same results as a DVD player, so I figured I'd test this.

My DVD player: HTPC using TheaterTek (VMR9, 6600GT) connected via HDMI to my plasma. I use GetGray for calibration.

HCFR generator: Running on the same HTPC, using view images. I tried both overlay and GDI.

When do a greyscale measurement using DVD manual, which is the way I originally calibrated it, I get a reasonably flat greyscale. Note that I didn't turn averaging on like I normally do for speed.

When I use the HCFR "view images", I get a completely different result. Files are attached.

So, if there was ever any doubt, the complete display chain matters!

Can't open your files, seem to be corrupted.

Can't open your files, seem to be corrupted.

Hmmmm. I downloaded the zip that I attached and they worked for me. Anyone else?

Can't open your files, seem to be corrupted.

I needed to upgrade from 1.21 to 1.22 in order to open the files.

My mistake. I thought I had already updated my laptop :p ...

Wow...not close at all!

It gets better.

As part of something else I was doing, I rolled back a driver version, and it was different yet again. :(

I most certainly will, because as I followed HDholics advice, I have found the Spyder2 to be limiting yet again. I did seem to be getting a more accurate reading (when it would read), however it wasn't reading anything below 20 IRE.

When I tried a continuous measurement, the readings were all over the board: sometimes nothing, sometimes everything near 100%, and sometimes red 0%, green around 150% and blue around 46%. When I would attempt a grayscale measurement, for the 10 IRE reading, I would get an error saying "No data from Sensor" which would mess up my RGB histogram.I don't have any issues with using Spyder2 with plasma TVs. I do my measuring in a dim or even in a dark room. Spyder correctly pointed out to elevated reds at 10% stim which I did not pay attention to at first, thinking that anything below 20% stim was not worth attention. After I fixed the red cut, Spyder correctly reflected the change in grayscale.

So far I don't have reasons to say that Spyder2 is "limiting" at 10% or 20% stim. Maybe it works better for plasma than for PTV.

For you Monaco Optix-XR/DTP94 owners out there, do you tripod mount this guy or do you place it right up against your panel (plasma in my case)? It should be arriving on Friday so I wanna know if I need to fish out my tripod or not (its in some box after we recently moved.) Thanks

SiegeX

Right up against it, no need for tripod in this case

I don't have any issues with using Spyder2 with plasma TVs. I do my measuring in a dim or even in a dark room. Spyder correctly pointed out to elevated reds at 10% stim which I did not pay attention to at first, thinking that anything below 20% stim was not worth attention. After I fixed the red cut, Spyder correctly reflected the change in grayscale.

So far I don't have reasons to say that Spyder2 is "limiting" at 10% or 20% stim. Maybe it works better for plasma than for PTV.

Well, I only have a problem reading the low IRE's when I'm using it with the green filter on, and HCFR set to LCD mode. If I take the filter off, and switch to CRT mode, then I have no problem getting readings... it's just that according to HDholic, that gives inaccurate readings.

I also turn out all the lights in the room, and even turn the computer monitor so it's facing the opposite direction from the TV while I'm measuring. I figured this is best to ensure the readings are not contaminated with light/color from any external sources. Is this in fact the best thing to be doing, or should I have lights on in the room?

What I ended up doing is re-calibrating my TV last night. I set everything back to default, and this time I calibrated my Standard temp settings using the green filter w/ LCD mode, and Medium temp using the filter off w/ CRT mode. Didn't finish until 2:30am, so I only had time to give each temp's results a quick glance. Both of them looked fairly good. The medium temp looked a little warmer, but I'm not sure if it's due to being inaccurate, or if the other setting is simply lacking. Tonight I'll be switching back and forth between the two to see which looks better to me.

One thing though... Last night I picked up some component cables to see if that would change the picture quality at all (I was previously using the stock [cheap] HDMI cable that came with my DVD player plugged into the DVI jack in my TV [using a cheap HDMI to DVI adapter]), and the results I had were a little bothersome. With the HDMI cable, I previously could not display blacker than black levels. With the component, I could display the blacker than black levels, but when I'd bright up the 0IRE gray window, I could actually see the window, even after doing my best do set bightness properly. Is this normal? On a related note, will the really expensive cables really make much of a difference in picture quality?

With the HDMI cable, I previously could not display blacker than black levels. With the component, I could display the blacker than black levels, but when I'd bright up the 0IRE gray window, I could actually see the window, even after doing my best do set bightness properly. Is this normal? On a related note, will the really expensive cables really make much of a difference in picture quality?

First comment, a cheap HDMI cable is just as good as an expensive one unless it is so cheap that it actually causes bits to be lost. This will show up as "sparklies".

It's not unusual for some playback devices to clip below black. Unfortunate, but not unusual.

As to not being able to make the 0 IRE window disappear when using component, that is odd. You should normally be able to turn brightness down to a point that it goes away. Does your set or DVD player have a configuration option for "Setup level" or "Enhanced black". If so you probably need to change those.

Hey guys. I know there are huge debates going around about which is the "correct" gamma to use but which gamma within HCFR should i select when beginning a calibration?

A)DISPLAY GAMMA
B)DISPLAY GAMMA W/ BLACK COMPENSATION
C)CAMERA GAMMA (STANDARD OFFSET)
D)CAMERA GAMMA (MANUAL OFFSET...)
E)OPTIMIZED(REGRESSION)

p.s. I have a Sony LCD RPTV & also my measuring device is the EYE-ONE DISPLAY 2

Thanks guys!
Carmine.

B or E... (imho)

--Patrice

I remember seeing a post that mentioned a calculation based on contrast ratio and the result is what one would use in the manual offset of camera gamma. Can someone please point me in the right direction to find more info on this calculation?

Thanks...

First comment, a cheap HDMI cable is just as good as an expensive one unless it is so cheap that it actually causes bits to be lost. This will show up as "sparklies".

What about using cheap HDMI cable and a cheap HDMI to DVI adapter (instead of simply an HDMI to DVI cable)... could that possibly cause any reduction in picture quality?


It's not unusual for some playback devices to clip below black. Unfortunate, but not unusual.
It clips the below black when using the HDMI cable, but not when using the component. Could this be an example of losing picture quality due to the HDMI to DVI adapter? Or is it possibly a limitation of my DVD player (not able to process below black on HDMI, but possible on component)?

As to not being able to make the 0 IRE window disappear when using component, that is odd. You should normally be able to turn brightness down to a point that it goes away. Does your set or DVD player have a configuration option for "Setup level" or "Enhanced black". If so you probably need to change those.

I had adjusted brightness as close to being proper as I could before doing this. I didn't attempt to decrease the brightness any further, as I thought that wouldn't be correct.

The clipping of below black has nothing to do with the HDMI cables or DVI adapter. It's purely a circumstance of bad design of the player. There may be settings on the player to adjust this.

The correct setting for brightness on a digital display is such that the 0% field disappears completely. For CRT displays it's a little different since black level will shift as a function of the APL of the image.

Greeting group, since this gamma question has a few different choices. I am wondering if you could make a recommendation on which setting to use with. Would it be possible to include in the help files which settings work with what kind of display?
As an example
Display Gamma - works best with plasma displays
Display Gamma with black compensation - works best with LCD,DLP displays
Camera Gamma - works best with Projectors, Rear Projection
Optimized - works best with Projectors in brightly lit rooms
something to that effect.

Again I know that you can use any of these based on what you feel looks like the best picture but, what would you the developers feel what works based on what you had in mind when you put together this wonderful and free software? :D

Ok, so last night I decided to test out both of the temperature settings I established to see which one I liked better... it turns out that my preliminary impressions were correct.

The standard setting (which I set using the LCD mode with green filter on) had a slightly greenish hue, and slightly more washed out colors. The medium setting (set using CRT mode with the green filter off) had much more vibrate colors, but the skin tone sometimes seemed to have a tad too much red in them. Unfortunately the test material was simply SD cable.

With that said, I actually found inconsistency with the viewing material. For example, I watched American Idol last night, and thought the medium temp setting looked pretty much spot on... however when I watched a couple episodes of Seinfeld and Friends, I noticed the red in the skintone. Is this normal? Is it possible that older SD viewing material can appear to have inaccurate looking color, even when grayscale/color decoder settings are correct?

Broadcast is a bad choice to use for evaluating settings because often the show in question is shot/processed with a certain look. Think CSI Miami for example.

SD channels are even worse because they are usually analog converted to digital which causes a whole other set of issues.

I remember seeing a post that mentioned a calculation based on contrast ratio and the result is what one would use in the manual offset of camera gamma. Can someone please point me in the right direction to find more info on this calculation?

Thanks...

See this thread http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9576288 (maybe around page 4ish).

Ok, so last night I decided to test out both of the temperature settings I established to see which one I liked better... it turns out that my preliminary impressions were correct.

The standard setting (which I set using the LCD mode with green filter on) had a slightly greenish hue, and slightly more washed out colors. The medium setting (set using CRT mode with the green filter off) had much more vibrate colors, but the skin tone sometimes seemed to have a tad too much red in them. Unfortunately the test material was simply SD cable.

With that said, I actually found inconsistency with the viewing material. For example, I watched American Idol last night, and thought the medium temp setting looked pretty much spot on... however when I watched a couple episodes of Seinfeld and Friends, I noticed the red in the skintone. Is this normal? Is it possible that older SD viewing material can appear to have inaccurate looking color, even when grayscale/color decoder settings are correct?
NEVER use cable/statellite material to judge picture quality. If you are calibrating from DVD then you are only calibrating for that source. What are the results when viewing DVD material?

RShannonCA,

That's terrible material to evaluate picture quality. First it varies from channel to channel and second you're not calibrating from RF input (such as pattern generator). Evaluate from a DVD movie since that is what you're calibrating from.

Right, I do understand that I'm calibrating from a different source, but isn't only the color decoder is source dependant? Adjusting grayscale should affect all sources, does it not? And I have also adjusted my 480i source using my PS2 w/ S-video to calibrate the color decoder... so with all that said, besides the anomalies that everyone has confirmed comes with SD broadcasts, my set should be displaying the shows accurately (like the American Idol episode that I watched last night)?

I will watch a DVD tonight to see how that looks. I'm just glad to hear that my hunch sounds like it's true.

Hello,

Here is a link to v1.22f setup : http://www.homecinema-fr.com/ColorHCFR/release/Setup_v1_2_2f.exe
v1.2.x users can also use the app build-in version check/download.

The only difference with v1.22 setup being the missing file (for Eyeone), We do not change version num. nor anything in app and related (and in fact former link to Setup_v1_2_2.exe also include it now).

Sorry for inconvenience...

--Patrice

WHen I download and install this version 1.2.2f I still se the version listed in the help screen as 1.2.2 and when I check for updates in the application it still says an update is available and wants to DL 1.2.2f again. Is this as expected for an "f" version?

Thanks
Rich

Adjusting grayscale should affect all sources, does it not?
Every TV is different, some have memory for each input and others don't. In your case each temp mode (standard, medium, high, etc.) affects all inputs.

And I have also adjusted my 480i source using my PS2 w/ S-video to calibrate the color decoder... so with all that said, besides the anomalies that everyone has confirmed comes with SD broadcasts, my set should be displaying the shows accurately (like the American Idol episode that I watched last night)?
NO. Broadcast doesn't come from your PS2. Whatever you watch FROM PS2 is what you calibrated.

WHen I download and install this version 1.2.2f I still se the version listed in the help screen as 1.2.2 and when I check for updates in the application it still says an update is available and wants to DL 1.2.2f again. Is this as expected for an "f" version?

Thanks
Rich

If you have CHCFRDX2.exe file in the software directory, it's ok :cool:

WHen I download and install this version 1.2.2f I still se the version listed in the help screen as 1.2.2 and when I check for updates in the application it still says an update is available and wants to DL 1.2.2f again. Is this as expected for an "f" version?
Yes, this is normal, only the installation was updated (Setup_v1_2_2f.exe).

As I said, the app and all remain the same, only one file was missing in the initial v1.22 setup exe.

--Patrice

PS : The online v1.22 (Setup_v1_2_2.exe) was also updated so now no way to be annoyed ;)

Feature request! :D

Background:
I have a lumagen scaler with Gamma "EQ". I can use it to shape the gamma curve to whatever slope I want using up to 11 points. to set it correctly with Color HCFR I usually select a 10 point reading and then chose my target gamma in references and bring up the luminance diagram. For each point of the reference curve I move the %-value to an excel-sheet and use it in conjunction with my 100IRE reading to get my target luminance for each point. I then use continous measures for each point and adjust the lumagen to hit my target luminance.

Request:
A built in feature for this. You should be able to tell the app your 100% value (eg make a reference reading at 100 IRE) and after that what % you are currently measuring using continous measurement. You should be able to select the current measurment point by clicking it in a luminance diagram (where the corresponding gamma curve should be visible and updated during the process). The target luminance for the selected point might be shown graphically much like the RGB bars and updated accordingly after each reading.

I belive colorfacts has implemented a similar feature in v7. :rolleyes:

// Lyckman

That is in the "todo" list for v1.3... Although we do not garanteed it'll be there.

--Patrice

I might have guessed... ;)
Awesome!

// Lyckman

Feature request! :D

Background:
I have a lumagen scaler with Gamma "EQ". I can use it to shape the gamma curve to whatever slope I want using up to 11 points. to set it correctly with Color HCFR I usually select a 10 point reading and then chose my target gamma in references and bring up the luminance diagram. For each point of the reference curve I move the %-value to an excel-sheet and use it in conjunction with my 100IRE reading to get my target luminance for each point. I then use continous measures for each point and adjust the lumagen to hit my target luminance.

Request:
A built in feature for this. You should be able to tell the app your 100% value (eg make a reference reading at 100 IRE) and after that what % you are currently measuring using continous measurement. You should be able to select the current measurment point by clicking it in a luminance diagram (where the corresponding gamma curve should be visible and updated during the process). The target luminance for the selected point might be shown graphically much like the RGB bars and updated accordingly after each reading.

I belive colorfacts has implemented a similar feature in v7. :rolleyes:

// Lyckman

Excellent feature request! I can see where this would be very handy.

Excellent feature request! I can see where this would be very handy.

Well, my EyeOne Display LT arrived yesterday and I can not tell you how much fun it was calibrating with HCFR last night! I can hardly wait to get home today and pick up where I left off. What a great SW tool!

I really enjoyed using continuous meas mode and watching the R G B values track across the PC screen while I adjusted the offsets and gains to bring them together. Oh What fun!

Couple of questions:

(1) What value of measured gamma should I be trying to achieve? My monitor (Panasonic plasma 50PH9UK) has 2.0, 2.2, 2.5 as options and I am measuring about 2.3 on the 2.5 setting now.

When I first started calibrating I could see the gamma color curved flattening out near the 90 - 100 IRE range. Backing down "picture" a bit put them back in line. Original "warm" color temp was about 7200, but its down at 6500 now. Very easy to do this just through the user menu so far since this menu includes offsets and gains for R and B.

(2) I realized last night that the luminance measures while viewing the "100 IRE" input ( i.e., dig 235) is by definition assigned to 100% on the gama curve (much like the poster above was mentioning). Likewise the 0 IRE (dig 16?) value is assigned to the 0% point of the curve, all that changes is what's in between, so no matter what you adjust these points will match. Even if your TV is very dim, you can still track the gamma curve perfectly since it only compares percent out to percent in. My question is, is there any way to measure brightness of the display in an *absolute* sense, i.e., in order to say whether one display is brighter than another. I guess this would be Lamberts or Candles, etc.

Thanks

Rich

I have a lumagen scaler with Gamma "EQ". I can use it to shape the gamma curve to whatever slope I want using up to 11 points.

AVS forum user FoLLgoTT posted his VideoEqualizer 1.0 utility HERE. (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9305983&&#post9305983)

He implemented 17 knobs. Seems a useful utility to anyone creating custom LUTs on a HTPC. Interesting to hear about the planned integration of a LUT editor into HCFR :D

-Dave

(1) What value of measured gamma should I be trying to achieve? My monitor (Panasonic plasma 50PH9UK) has 2.0, 2.2, 2.5 as options and I am measuring about 2.3 on the 2.5 setting now.


Good luck getting a straight answer on that one. There's an entire thread devoted to the question and nobody can seem to agree.

Good luck getting a straight answer on that one. There's an entire thread devoted to the question and nobody can seem to agree.


OH NO!!!.. :D :eek: :mad:

I've been reading and researching on google for a while now, and this thread has been a great resource of info. Thanks to some great posts by you guys (richlo, HDholic, Smokey Joe, Georges G, and many others) I now think I'm ready to get some readings off my plasma. I do have a couple of questions I'd like to ask before I start.

1) I've read where most of you recommend setting contrast before starting, and you recommend GetGray for digital displays. Could tell me which pattern and how to go about this with Getgray? Because with AVIA, contrast was the one setting I felt I never got right.

2) I know you projector owners are taking your readings at a set distance from the screen. However, what is the best way for us flat-panel owners to get sensor readings? Can we let the sensor press right up against the screen or is that a no-no?:confused: Also, I've read where some of you take the bracket off of the spyder II. Would you recommend I do that for a plasma?

3)In my service menu I have adjustments labeled "R-High, G-High, B-High, R-Low, G-Low, B-Low". What is the difference between R-High & R-Low? Will I use all of those to adjust for Grayscale or just the highs, or just the lows? With that group I also have a setting called "ABL" currently set at "123". Any idea what that setting is for?

BTW, my sensor is a Spyder II, my display is a Pioneer 5070HD, DVD player is an Oppo 970, and I will be using GetGray for patterns.

Plasma owner here.

1. For contrast/brightness start with the 5% ramp in GetGray. Set brightness and contrast so that you get no dithering in the black bar (code = 16) and set contrast so that you get what looks to be a smooth transition from black to peak white. You can also use the grayscale ramps to check to see that you aren't getting any banding.

2. I have my DisplayLT stuck to my screen (gently) for my readings.

3. The following are synonymous: gain = drive = high and cut = bias = low. These are the controls you will use to fix your greyscale. Each control controls the intensity of the specific colour at low intensity (low) or high intensity (high). As you change the high and low settings you will also affect the values in the middle. This is where you will spend a lot of time finding the optimal settings.

I've been reading and researching on google for a while now, and this thread has been a great resource of info. Thanks to some great posts by you guys (richlo, HDholic, Smokey Joe, Georges G, and many others) I now think I'm ready to get some readings off my plasma. I do have a couple of questions I'd like to ask before I start.

1) I've read where most of you recommend setting contrast before starting, and you recommend GetGray for digital displays. Could tell me which pattern and how to go about this with Getgray? Because with AVIA, contrast was the one setting I felt I never got right.

2) I know you projector owners are taking your readings at a set distance from the screen. However, what is the best way for us flat-panel owners to get sensor readings? Can we let the sensor press right up against the screen or is that a no-no?:confused: Also, I've read where some of you take the bracket off of the spyder II. Would you recommend I do that for a plasma?

3)In my service menu I have adjustments labeled "R-High, G-High, B-High, R-Low, G-Low, B-Low". What is the difference between R-High & R-Low? Will I use all of those to adjust for Grayscale or just the highs, or just the lows? With that group I also have a setting called "ABL" currently set at "123". Any idea what that setting is for?

BTW, my sensor is a Spyder II, my display is a Pioneer 5070HD, DVD player is an Oppo 970, and I will be using GetGray for patterns.


Set Contrast 1st..along with Brightness, once you do your greyscale, go back and tweak those setting after...

2. Put the sensor right up against the screen..

3. In your regular menu, you will see tha you have High and Low temperature to pick. The High and Low that you see in the service menu are the controls for those. In the Mits (at least my CRT), calibrating the HIGH only, will give you just a calibration for that given input, using LOW only, will provide global greyscale throughout your inputs. Pick which one gives you the best results to work with, once your done, then you can always transfer those setting over if they dont carry over. Im not familiar with the other stuff,is (ABL)..so be careful

as you may know, record your original settings..use the Note section of HCFR to put that info on and have it always available.

Needless to say, I had a few problems.:(

I was unable to get the CIE diagram any better than what you see in the attached scan. The CNet review of this TV (http://reviews.cnet.com/Pioneer_PDP_5070HD/4505-6482_7-31951817.html)talked about it's mis-representation of Green, so possibly that has something to do with why green is so far out.

Once into the service menu I was able to get a great grayscale reading, but when I exited the service menu the gray turned to a yellowish gray. It's like while I'm in the service menu the display is showing different colors. I luckily ran across THIS THREAD (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=773546) where someone calibrating a 5070 was having the same problem. The user said he ended up calibrating to 9100, and that gave him a good grayscale reading when he exited the service menu. Another user in that thread said to "calibrate to the mid-grayscale" to resolve the problem. Could someone make a recommendation as to which I should try? By "mid-grayscale" does he mean something like 50ire?

Thanks for your help.

Needless to say, I had a few problems.:(

I was unable to get the CIE diagram any better than what you see in the attached scan. The CNet review of this TV (http://reviews.cnet.com/Pioneer_PDP_5070HD/4505-6482_7-31951817.html)talked about it's mis-representation of Green, so possibly that has something to do with why green is so far out.

Once into the service menu I was able to get a great grayscale reading, but when I exited the service menu the gray turned to a yellowish gray. It's like while I'm in the service menu the display is showing different colors. I luckily ran across THIS THREAD (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=773546) where someone calibrating a 5070 was having the same problem. The user said he ended up calibrating to 9100, and that gave him a good grayscale reading when he exited the service menu. Another user in that thread said to "calibrate to the mid-grayscale" to resolve the problem. Could someone make a recommendation as to which I should try? By "mid-grayscale" does he mean something like 50ire?

Thanks for your help.

SOme Mits (CRT) do the same thing. so the best thing to do, is go in and out of the Service Menu. Do a full run, then highlight one IRE of concentration, lets say 100IRE, then click on Display Meaurement and look at your color bars, and lets say Red is 90, Green 101 and Blue 123..Go to your DRIVE or Contrast (whatever parameter to handle the brightside of the scale), and then decrease blue some and increase Red some and save/exit, then do a CONTINUOUS READING on it, to see what has change..its a pain in the butt but its the only way to go...

Low 0 through 30
Mid will be 40 thru 60-70
High 80 and up

Good luck getting a straight answer on that one. There's an entire thread devoted to the question and nobody can seem to agree.

Oh. What is the name of this gamma thread of endless dissagreement? I'll go look there;-)

Thanks
Rich

You were warned.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=792333

Needless to say, I had a few problems.:(

I was unable to get the CIE diagram any better than what you see in the attached scan. The CNet review of this TV (http://reviews.cnet.com/Pioneer_PDP_5070HD/4505-6482_7-31951817.html)talked about it's mis-representation of Green, so possibly that has something to do with why green is so far out.

Once into the service menu I was able to get a great grayscale reading, but when I exited the service menu the gray turned to a yellowish gray. It's like while I'm in the service menu the display is showing different colors. I luckily ran across THIS THREAD (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=773546) where someone calibrating a 5070 was having the same problem. The user said he ended up calibrating to 9100, and that gave him a good grayscale reading when he exited the service menu. Another user in that thread said to "calibrate to the mid-grayscale" to resolve the problem. Could someone make a recommendation as to which I should try? By "mid-grayscale" does he mean something like 50ire?

Thanks for your help.

I have the 6070 and had a similar issue with the shade of green. Your's at least ends up with a good yellow. ( Your green actually looks close to the original spec for NTCS green. http://www.imagingscience.com/cie1931_phosphor.htm)

I also noticed that the set does not stay in "warm/lo" setting when in the service menu. I did as the other poster suggested and made changes in the service menu and then exited to take new measurements.

I think the comment to "calibrate to the mid-grayscale" is indicating that if you calibrate the gray scale while in the service menu, you are actually working with the mid setting. Maybe the other poster was suggesting to use the mid setting for viewing after inherently calibrating it in the service menu. I would stick with the plan in the previous paragraph if it were me though.

2) I know you projector owners are taking your readings at a set distance from the screen. However, what is the best way for us flat-panel owners to get sensor readings? Can we let the sensor press right up against the screen or is that a no-no?:confused: Also, I've read where some of you take the bracket off of the spyder II. Would you recommend I do that for a plasma?

3)In my service menu I have adjustments labeled "R-High, G-High, B-High, R-Low, G-Low, B-Low". What is the difference between R-High & R-Low? Will I use all of those to adjust for Grayscale or just the highs, or just the lows? With that group I also have a setting called "ABL" currently set at "123". Any idea what that setting is for?


I used a tripod to hold the sensor very near the panel. Sometimes I would just lean it against it.

The -High settings control the levels of the colors in white for 100IRE down to ~40 IRE. The -Lows will adjust from 30IRE and down. Don't worry too much about 10IRE because the sensor readings are not very accurate there.

I love this software! I've calibrated the grey scale on my projector. I'm now 6500 temp and dead on the grey scale. My "average gamma" is 2.05. I don't trust the readings of my Spyder2 below 40IRE, and I'm worried that the reported average is incorrect because of the low IREs. Is there a way to figure out what the gamma is at each IRE? Should it be 2.2 at each IRE?
Thanks!