Well I will do some reading and have a go at it. I will see if I can get color temp closer without totally ruining my tv. I am going to start with that RGB levels histogram and see if I can get that more line with each other. Reading all the charts and graphs is like a foreign language to me and I am not sure where to even begin. I will be sure to record all original settings before changing anything.
Kenal0

Well I will do some reading and have a go at it. I will see if I can get color temp closer without totally ruining my tv. I am going to start with that RGB levels histogram and see if I can get that more line with each other. Reading all the charts and graphs is like a foreign language to me and I am not sure where to even begin. I will be sure to record all original settings before changing anything.
Kenal0

always record your ORIGINAL settings..its the best thing you can do

dlarsen.... no worries, I appreciate your point of view and still want my sensor.... I, like Derek, have become somewhat of a collector :D

Thus if you use it to calibrate your display, and the software says you have a deltaE of < 1, you have achieved a very tight match to the units 5.5 deltaE from a perfect color gamut.

:cool:

Not exactly, the dE < 1 value in greyscale that Dave showed means he met his target (R=B=G) with an error less than 1 unit. What the 5.5 dE refers to is the uncertainty in the measurement of a specific color's chromiticity value (where it falls in the gamut). It doesn't mean that all measurements have exactly that error. To be specific it means that a chromiticity value generated with the TAOS sensor using a D65 illuminant and a colorchecker target (on average) wil be in error by that amount.

To be specific it means that a chromiticity value generated with the TAOS sensor using a D65 illuminant and a colorchecker target (on average) wil be in error by that amount.then compared to the published L*a*b* values of the ColorChecker (as measured by instrumentation), the average magnitude of the error is about 5.5 delta-E units.I’ll note that this 5.5 error is the average, not a constant. It can be more and less over the range of the gamut. Also, it’s seems this error is in reference to other instrumentation which I imagine is quite good but also probably has it’s own errors.

Anywho, it does seem that we are in agreement that for our purposes (display calibration) the delta dE is probably more important than the absolute dE.

Dave

Just out of curiosity, anyone know what the deltaE is of my eyeball?

Just out of curiosity, anyone know what the deltaE is of my eyeball?
I imagine it’ll depend a lot on what you had for lunch…

Dave

More seriously...

In high-quality image reproduction, a delta-E value of unity is taken to lie approximately on the threshold of perceptibility...

Dave

What the 5.5 dE refers to is the uncertainty in the measurement of a specific color's chromiticity value (where it falls in the gamut).
I'm not so sure.... I read it as an absolute error between where the color chips measured using the TAOS sensor vs. where they measured with a piece of lab equipment.... note that he contrasted the placement of the color results on the two charts... I don't think he was referring to uncertainty, but rather displaced measurements...

:cool:

Where should I start to reduce the color temp closer to 6500K? I can access the service menu and have located the RGB gains and bias controls.

My advise would be to start with the color temp settings. (you should see setting for ‘warm’ ‘cool’, etc..) Choose the one that gets you closest to D65 and only then use the gains and bias to get you closer. What color you want to move (relative to the others) will depend on which way you need to move and what color your display may be ‘running out of’ or weak on.

Again, I don’t have much recent experience on DLP’s and not familiar with what terms your particular set will use for color temp settings. (it may even call them 5000K, 6500K, 9300K) but I wouldn’t trust them by name. Do a quick measurement on each one and choose the one that’s closest.

Did you get that 90IRE bump resolved?

Dave

Just out of curiosity, anyone know what the deltaE is of my eyeball?

Red and filtered

Just out of curiosity, anyone know what the deltaE is of my eyeball?

great question, it depends on how closely it matches the "standard observer". You'd have to go back and look at the statisical distribution of the original measurements that went into the CIE standard observer definition to come up with an equivalent absolute uncertainty contained in that definition. For example you could define it as the 1-sigma width of that distribution. Of course, that's no guarantee you fall within the 1-sigma width, especially after a hard night of drinking. ;)

I'm not so sure.... I read it as an absolute error between where the color chips measured using the TAOS sensor vs. where they measured with a piece of lab equipment.... note that he contrasted the placement of the color results on the two charts... I don't think he was referring to uncertainty, but rather displaced measurements...

:cool:

not correct, the comparison was between a least-squares optimized solution using the diode(color chip) measurements and reference instrumentation. As Dave pointed out we also don't know how accurate the reference instrumentation was but given the source of the data I would expect it to be at the sub 1 dE level.

My advise would be to start with the color temp settings. (you should see setting for ‘warm’ ‘cool’, etc..) Choose the one that gets you closest to D65 and only then use the gains and bias to get you closer. What color you want to move (relative to the others) will depend on which way you need to move and what color your display may be ‘running out of’ or weak on.

Again, I don’t have much recent experience on DLP’s and not familiar with what terms your particular set will use for color temp settings. (it may even call them 5000K, 6500K, 9300K) but I wouldn’t trust them by name. Do a quick measurement on each one and choose the one that’s closest.

Did you get that 90IRE bump resolved?

Dave

No the bump is still there and it looks to be legit. I took the measurements again and still have the bump. Not even sure where to start on that one.
Warm2 setting gets me the closest and that is what is what is on the file I uploaded.
Kenal0

If you are looking to get rid of bumps the best thing to look at is a continuous grey scale ramp. As you adjust brightness/contrast you will likely see discolouration in specific areas of the ramp.

Sometimes even a single click can make a big difference.

No the bump is still there and it looks to be legit. I took the measurements again and still have the bump. Not even sure where to start on that one.

Did you make sure that you aren’t starting to clip your whites? You might try lowering your contrast 10-20% and make a run to verify that’s not it. Also, any setting on the DLP for ‘white peaking’ or ‘SLR’ or ‘spoke light recapture’ try turning those off if you have them.

Dave

Did you make sure that you aren’t starting to clip your whites? You might try lowering your contrast 10-20% and make a run to verify that’s not it. Also, any setting on the DLP for ‘white peaking’ or ‘SLR’ or ‘spoke light recapture’ try turning those off if you have them.

Dave


This is a very good suggestion,

. Your file shows you have alot of work to hit d65. I know you mentioned that the results "you did nothing" (assuming this is out of the box - so this is not unusual) so Im guessing that now you have done something - adjusting your greyscale and setting contrast and brightness, etc...

Upload a new file with the adjusted settings

I am still not convinced that my Spider colorimeter is working properly. When I used the spidertv software, it had me make some very radical and incorrect adjustments. Also they were not consistent from one pass to another. I am hoping for better results with the Eye One. I am also going to try the Spider on another tv either a plasma or lcd to see if there is more consistent results. I have used the GetGray dvd to adjust the contrast and brightness and the AVIA to adjust the color and tint. They are pretty close and the picture looks much better than before I made those adjustments.
I will play around with it this weekend.
Thanks
Kenal0

A good thing would be to know what you expect with 1.3...
While I certainly wouldn’t expect it, and it may be bigger than a .1 bump, I think the ability for HCFR to generate, manage, and edit custom LUTs and ICC/ICM profiles would be tres cool. (I picked that up from the HCFR forum :D) Have you seen the ‘Video Equalizer’ utility posted on AVS HTPC forum?

Dave

I am still not convinced that my Spider colorimeter is working properly. When I used the spidertv software, it had me make some very radical and incorrect adjustments. Also they were not consistent from one pass to another. I am hoping for better results with the Eye One. I am also going to try the Spider on another tv either a plasma or lcd to see if there is more consistent results. I have used the GetGray dvd to adjust the contrast and brightness and the AVIA to adjust the color and tint. They are pretty close and the picture looks much better than before I made those adjustments.
I will play around with it this weekend.
Thanks
Kenal0


extend your READ time on the Spyder from its default...see how that works

So I finally had time to try the DTP-94 last night. I was originally using the Spyder2 but after comments that the DTP-94 was much better at <IRE30, I thought I'd try it. I found it to have much much quicker reads over the whole IRE range. It was quick and easy to set greyscale at low stimulus levels, but at about >70IRE, the continuous measures were just bouncing up and down all over the place. eg. in 2 seconds, I would watch red jump from 80% to 103% to 94% to 110%. My question is why am I getting such significant random jumps? It made it impossible to calibrate at this end. Is it because the reads are so quick or something? How can I get around this... or is my DTP-94 faulty?

OR maybe can I use the DTP-94 to do the low end and my S2 to do the high end or is this going to give me a poor calibration?

So I finally had time to try the DTP-94 last night. I was originally using the Spyder2 but after comments that the DTP-94 was much better at <IRE30, I thought I'd try it. I found it to have much much quicker reads over the whole IRE range. It was quick and easy to set greyscale at low stimulus levels, but at about >70IRE, the continuous measures were just bouncing up and down all over the place. eg. in 2 seconds, I would watch red jump from 80% to 103% to 94% to 110%. My question is why am I getting such significant random jumps? It made it impossible to calibrate at this end. Is it because the reads are so quick or something? How can I get around this... or is my DTP-94 faulty?

OR maybe can I use the DTP-94 to do the low end and my S2 to do the high end or is this going to give me a poor calibration?


make sure to recalibrate every 10 min the DTP-94

What do you mean recalibrate every 10 minutes? I didn't realise I needed to calibrate the sensor

What do you mean recalibrate every 10 minutes? I didn't realise I needed to calibrate the sensor


Yes...go to where you see the sensor and open that Icon then put the sensor down on a table or whatever so long as no light is hitting it, and recalibrate it by clicking on "calibrate internal offsets"..I do this 1st before starting then every 10 minutes, and more importantly during the beginning as the internal temperature will change more dramatically..(think of it like a IRON, you plug it in its not as hot as it will be in a few seconds, and even hotter after its been running a few minutes)

Didn't know you had to do that... thanks for the tip, will try again next weekend.

Didn't know you had to do that... thanks for the tip, will try again next weekend.

No prob Doc...

I have redone my measurements changing my samsung dlp to warm2 and also to movie mode. I see the color temp is much closer and the RGB histogram is looking better however the luminance graph is dropping way off as the ire reading is going up. How can I correct that?
File is attached.
Thanks
Kenal0

I have redone my measurements changing my samsung dlp to warm2 and also to movie mode. I see the color temp is much closer and the RGB histogram is looking better however the luminance graph is dropping way off as the ire reading is going up. How can I correct that?
File is attached.
Thanks
Kenal0

Yes, it looks like with a click (or two) of a little less of brightness and contrast, that it will probably line up better for you..much better looking..

Id try ONE click less brightness, and two of contrast, then readjust a tad your greyscale..

Besides extending your dark reads, increase your 300m read time, not sure by how much, but I would double it at least..

the dtp-94 should be rock solid at any IRE. bouncing around above 70IRE means something is wrong. the dtp-94 auto-ranges, meaning it determines how long it needs to read. Set the software to let the meter decide. in calman this means set the read time to zero

jeff

When I run "calibrate" on my eye one, HCFR says "place the sensor on a planar surface". What are they trying to tell me here? What does a flat surface have to do with it? The screen of the LCD RPTV is flat, after all. Are they trying to tell me it needs to be in the dark with no light input? Why can't I just put my finger over the sensor opening? If it is indeed darkness it needs, then why does the calibration return instantly? If I have "average multiple readings on low input" selected, and the sensor takes 20 seconds to read a 0% input, then why doesn't the calibration take at least some time?

And how often do I have to do this for the eye one anyway?

Just put it on a table/stand with the cover on.

I don't know for sure, but what I assume it's doing is taking a "no light" reading so that it can establish a noise floor for the meter.

The Eye One are supposed to be temperature compensated so only one sensor calibration per monitor calibration is required.

Yes, it looks like with a click (or two) of a little less of brightness and contrast, that it will probably line up better for you..much better looking..

Id try ONE click less brightness, and two of contrast, then readjust a tad your greyscale..

Besides extending your dark reads, increase your 300m read time, not sure by how much, but I would double it at least..

This is a perfect example of the gamma issue I continue to struggle with. If you calibrate using camera gamma vs display gamma the low IRE portion of the curve slopes a different direction. So on one hand you should increase brightness a click or two and the other drop it a couple. So without a definite answer to the "correct" gamma I think it is hard to say.

I think it may be best to go with setting brightness using a test pattern and then not change it to get the gamma in line. Same goes for contrast. Anyone agree?

The Eye One are supposed to be temperature compensated so only one sensor calibration per monitor calibration is required.

Hmmm. My experience doesn't agree with this. After a while of calibrating (since I'm not exactly quick at it) I notice that the high end of my gray scale is now registering at much dimmer than it did shortly before. Calibration seems to bring it back into line. Or possibly just another reading gets completely different results than the previous.....

My lamp is pretty old (1800+ hours). I wonder if its light output is varying?
Roy

Why can't I just put my finger over the sensor opening?
Because it will be measuring the IR being emiited by your finger !!! A flat flat-black surface at room temperature would be ideal.

:cool:

Because it will be measuring the IR being emiited by your finger !!! A flat flat-black surface at room temperature would be ideal.

:cool:

The IR that your body emits is not measurable by these sensors, so if you are sure you can block room light with your finger it will work fine. The silicon detectors in all these sensors cut-off at 1100 nm (1.1 microns), thermal IR from low temperature objects (like the human body) peaks in the mid-infrared (3-6 microns).

The IR that your body emits is not measurable by these sensors, so if you are sure you can block room light with your finger it will work fine. The silicon detectors in all these sensors cut-off at 1100 nm (1.1 microns), thermal IR from low temperature objects (like the human body) peaks in the mid-infrared (3-6 microns).

Just dont leave your sweaty finger print on it

This is a perfect example of the gamma issue I continue to struggle with. If you calibrate using camera gamma vs display gamma the low IRE portion of the curve slopes a different direction. So on one hand you should increase brightness a click or two and the other drop it a couple. So without a definite answer to the "correct" gamma I think it is hard to say.

I think it may be best to go with setting brightness using a test pattern and then not change it to get the gamma in line. Same goes for contrast. Anyone agree?

When you talk about setting with a test pattern are you referring to visually using the patterns on AVIA or Getgray? I have changed the brightness and contrast a little and got the luminance graph more in line but I still have the dip at 80 and cannot figure out how to get rid of it. I should have the Eye One tomorrow and I am hoping for better results as the Spider is alway setting my contrast way to high on all 4 of my tvs that I have tried it on. 3 plasmas and a dlp.
Kenal0

Just dont leave your sweaty finger print on it

Ah, if only calibration made my palms sweaty, I'd be a very happy man. ;)

So, if "calibrating" the sensor means measuring black level, which is what made sense to me, then shouldn't it take multiple readings and average them just like it does when I'm doing a 0% test measurement?

Ah, if only calibration made my palms sweaty, I'd be a very happy man. ;)

So, if "calibrating" the sensor means measuring black level, which is what made sense to me, then shouldn't it take multiple readings and average them just like it does when I'm doing a 0% test measurement?

yeah, the term 'calibrating' really shouldn't be used for this operation. Dark current offset correction would be better (but too long). Anyway, it probably does average multiple readings.

When you talk about setting with a test pattern are you referring to visually using the patterns on AVIA or Getgray? I have changed the brightness and contrast a little and got the luminance graph more in line but I still have the dip at 80 and cannot figure out how to get rid of it. I should have the Eye One tomorrow and I am hoping for better results as the Spider is alway setting my contrast way to high on all 4 of my tvs that I have tried it on. 3 plasmas and a dlp.
Kenal0

Yes, I use GetGray and DVE for setting brightness and contrast.

Should setting the contrast and brightness be done visually before starting to take readings with the software? Should it then be adjusted after viewing the illuminance graph and seeing what changes should be made or is it an either or method?
I realize that almost every setting is interactive and this is as much art as science but I am still trying to figure out the basic steps involved so I am not chasing all over.

I received my Eye One so I am going to try the software with the it later tonight.
I know how to get in the service menu but I am not sure what changes to make to adjust the gray scale so for now I think it best to stay out of the SM and continue reading. My display looks 100% better even after the basic adjustments ie color temp, tint, saturation.
My last run was not that far off of the 6500 so while I know it can improve, it is a lot better than being at 7500.
Thanks for the help
Kenal0

Should setting the contrast and brightness be done visually before starting to take readings with the software? Should it then be adjusted after viewing the illuminance graph and seeing what changes should be made or is it an either or method?

Yes and Yes.

Before I did my first calibration with a meter I "eyeballed" it using GetGray and thought I had pretty good results.

In fact though I had a very bad "S-curve" in my luminance. This is simply not visible without a meter.

I have a slight s curve but I also have a significant dip at 80. I am not sure where to start on that. I have taken the suggestions earlier in this thread about changing b and c a notch or two and it got me closer to the target but still the dip at 80. I will redo all measurements with the Eye One in the next few days along with the changes I made and post for opinions. The other problem I have is that doing it visually with the Getgray disc, I cannot get the moving contrast pattern adjusted properly. I am unable to even see the bars at +2% and +5% no matter where I adjust the contrast. The brightness is no problem.

Kenal0

I have a slight s curve but I also have a significant dip at 80. I am not sure where to start on that. I have taken the suggestions earlier in this thread about changing b and c a notch or two and it got me closer to the target but still the dip at 80. I will redo all measurements with the Eye One in the next few days along with the changes I made and post for opinions. The other problem I have is that doing it visually with the Getgray disc, I cannot get the moving contrast pattern adjusted properly. I am unable to even see the bars at +2% and +5% no matter where I adjust the contrast. The brightness is no problem.

Kenal0


Your going to need to start making changes in the service menu to get better results..The basic calibrations are only going to get you so far...

I figured that but I also want to have a decent understanding of what to change in the SM before I go in there. I do not want to be on a fishing expedition and start guessing what to change.
Kenal0

When I run "calibrate" on my eye one, HCFR says "place the sensor on a planar surface". What are they trying to tell me here? What does a flat surface have to do with it? The screen of the LCD RPTV is flat, after all. Are they trying to tell me it needs to be in the dark with no light input? Why can't I just put my finger over the sensor opening? If it is indeed darkness it needs, then why does the calibration return instantly? If I have "average multiple readings on low input" selected, and the sensor takes 20 seconds to read a 0% input, then why doesn't the calibration take at least some time?

And how often do I have to do this for the eye one anyway?

Hmm... I asked the same questions. My experience is the same as you. I think it needs to be dark. Why don't they just say "put it in the dark" though?

Ahh, but the most interesting question is "why is it instantaneous?"

Let me know if you resolve this.

-Rich

Hmm... I asked the same questions. My experience is the same as you. I think it needs to be dark. Why don't they just say "put it in the dark" though?

Ahh, but the most interesting question is "why is it instantaneous?"

Let me know if you resolve this.

-Rich

Well, my assumption is always that the problem is I don't read French. The three years of high school French, 30+ years ago, is just enough for me to say "Je ne sais pas."

The thing that makes sense is that it has to establish a base reading for zero light input, but I'd expect that noise would make averaging that reading even more important than when measuring a value from the screen.

As far as resolution, we'll have to wait for input from the HCFR team. You'll hear it here as soon as I will.
Roy

Ahh, but the most interesting question is "why is it instantaneous?"

-Rich

If it is much quicker then a dark (0%) reading and assuming HFCR has implemented it correctly, then it is probably an electronic offset correction rather than a dark current offset correction. Electronic offsets can be measured very quickly because by definition the integration time on the detector is 0, or whatever minimum read-out time you can get.

I have a slight s curve but I also have a significant dip at 80. I am not sure where to start on that. I have taken the suggestions earlier in this thread about changing b and c a notch or two and it got me closer to the target but still the dip at 80. I will redo all measurements with the Eye One in the next few days along with the changes I made and post for opinions. The other problem I have is that doing it visually with the Getgray disc, I cannot get the moving contrast pattern adjusted properly. I am unable to even see the bars at +2% and +5% no matter where I adjust the contrast. The brightness is no problem.

Kenal0

Hi Ken,

I've not read much of the later parts of this thread (just the first few when it started), so forgive me if I'm just repeating what others have said, but have you tried adjusting the contrast in the source if possible? Some DVD players have brightness and contrast controls in them and they can clip at the extremes so that you cannot see the moving black or white bars. If this is the case, adjust the source contrast until you can see the bars again, and then adjust the display contrast.

Do you have a choice of gamma curves (tv, movie, video etc)? Sometimes they can give you an odd curve like you are seeing and choosing another may give you a better curve.

Gary.

If it is much quicker then a dark (0%) reading and assuming HFCR has implemented it correctly, then it is probably an electronic offset correction rather than a dark current offset correction. Electronic offsets can be measured very quickly because by definition the integration time on the detector is 0, or whatever minimum read-out time you can get.

You know, this makes good sense. If there is no light whatsoever shining on the detector, then perhaps we could reason that there would be no element of randomness at all to the reading. The longer integration times for low light measurements may be intended to smooth over fluctuations in the monitor brightness, not the sensor's noise.

Good point.
Rich

If there is no light whatsoever shining on the detector, then perhaps we could reason that there would be no element of randomness at all to the reading.


Not quite, no light on detector means the signal = electronic offset (bias) + dark current

Both terms still have "randomness"(noise) but we still try measure the bias by setting the integration to some small value to get rid of the dark current term.


The longer integration times for low light measurements may be intended to smooth over fluctuations in the monitor brightness, not the sensor's noise.

Good point.
Rich

The longer integration times are so we can collect enough photons to get above what's called the "shot noise" level. It will also have the effect of smoothing out variations in the display signal.

The longer integration times are so we can collect enough photons to get above what's called the "shot noise" level. It will also have the effect of smoothing out variations in the display signal.

I would think that whenever your signal to noise ratio isn't enough to make the noise insignificant, averaging multiple readings to smooth ripples in the noise makes sense. That would go for the sensor calibration as well as low level light readings. You don't want a momentary spike in noise to skew your results.

Hi Ken,

I've not read much of the later parts of this thread (just the first few when it started), so forgive me if I'm just repeating what others have said, but have you tried adjusting the contrast in the source if possible? Some DVD players have brightness and contrast controls in them and they can clip at the extremes so that you cannot see the moving black or white bars. If this is the case, adjust the source contrast until you can see the bars again, and then adjust the display contrast.

Do you have a choice of gamma curves (tv, movie, video etc)? Sometimes they can give you an odd curve like you are seeing and choosing another may give you a better curve.

Gary.
I am using a ps3 an Xbox 360 and also the xbox hd dvd player. I do not believe there is any user contrast controls. I am using movie mode and warm2 which brought the color temp much closer to 6500 and also the rgb histogram looking better. The bump at 80 on the luminance graph is there on other mode settings as well. I am going to start over with the Eye One.
Thanks and I will post results.
Kenal0

First time poster here, in need of some help. I've got HCFR installed and just got the Eye-One Display LT today. I've run the Eye-One and it's software, but can't seem to get HCFR to recognize the Eye-One. Also happens with BabelColor. Is there some trick to setting it up to run with HCFR. Any help would be very greatly appreciated.

Have you copied the EyeOne dll into the HCFR directory?

No I haven't tried that, I wasn't exactly sure where it get's pasted. I just copied EyeOne.dll and pasted it in the general HCFR folder, with no results.

I am using a ps3 an Xbox 360 and also the xbox hd dvd player. I do not believe there is any user contrast controls. I am using movie mode and warm2 which brought the color temp much closer to 6500 and also the rgb histogram looking better. The bump at 80 on the luminance graph is there on other mode settings as well. I am going to start over with the Eye One.
Thanks and I will post results.
Kenal0

The results were almost identical with the Eye One and the Spider. I have that dip at 80 on the luminance graph.
Kenal0

Here is my latest run. Still not into the service menu. I wanted to get as close as possible from the user controls. Any ideas on what to change next?

Kenal0

When it comes to training between probes and screen offsets, I am little lost – so I think. But here is what I did and I am not entirely sure if maybe I did to much or I actually get the idea, I know the results are pretty impressive. Please advice

1 – Setup a 100IRE .313 .329 through my trusty DTP-94
2. Read RGB primaries
3. Save file as a Ref document
4. check mark the file so that it is set as your REF document and keep file open
5. Open new file – this time with the HCFRColor probe and new calibration file
6. Read RGB primaries, 100IRE and 0IRE
7. save the calibration file
8. Proceed with your regular runs

Do I have this correct? Or was it useless to really even save the file for the DTP-94 run – which is what I am thinking.

In addition, the HCFRColor probe was giving back incredibly low Y-reading off the screen (did use the Mits3000calibration file with HCFRColor originally), setting it up like this and then turning it around to point back to the projector gave me unbelievable results down to 10IRE and it had rock solid readinga back during tweak session, I’m almost guessing that I probably could have hit 5IRE with the HCFR probe.

Btw. I know Im clipping a little Red which is easily fixed (just was trying to determine its cutoff before clipping)

Here is my latest run. Still not into the service menu. I wanted to get as close as possible from the user controls. Any ideas on what to change next?

Kenal0

This run has my luminance more in line than my last run however it has me turn the brightness up a few notches which contradict the Getgray visual test. Which has priority? It is not a huge difference but I am not sure if getting a nice straight line along the luminance graph is more important than the visual settings on Getgray.
I cannot get the contrast done correctly with Getgray as the bars do not disappear and the positive 2 and 5 do not appear at all through the whole range low or high.
Thanks
kenal0

Remember that everything is a compromise.

The most important thing, IMHO, for setting brightness correctly is that the black bar should be completely off. No sub-pixels of any kind should be firing.

If doing that means you are slightly off on the gamma curve, is no big deal. There is so much disagreement about which gamma curve/calculation methodology is right that I would worry about hitting that curve exactly the least. Once you don't have any big "S" shapes you should be OK.

That makes sense to me. I will adjust the brightness to the Getgray. The contrast is another story as I cannot get the bars to show up or disappear. Kind of up in the air with this one.

Kenal0

That makes sense to me. I will adjust the brightness to the Getgray. The contrast is another story as I cannot get the bars to show up or disappear. Kind of up in the air with this one.

Kenal0

For contrast setting just bring bring contrast all the way up and see if you see colorshift, reduce to the point you see no colorshift...

Hello,

Rich, your procedure is ok, except that after step 6, you have to chose "Adjust XYZ coordinates" from the advance menu... BUT, unfortunately, this did not apply to our probe (you'll see the menu is grey)... This will only come with v1.3.

I'll explain later how you can build a calibration profile file for your set and our probe using the DTP94 as reference.

Btw, you can do simultaneous measure (advance menu) assuming you have a way to place and plug both probes at same time, that'll be an interesting test ;)

Although it have cons, yes our probe give solid reading (and fast) as well as low level consistant values... I'm pleased you like it.

I was off for a while, but will go through the post and answer raised questions.

--Patrice

Hi laric,

Superb software, is there any way to display L'a'b' values? I want to compare HCFR readings to eye-one match with the d2.

Hello,


Btw, you can do simultaneous measure (advance menu) assuming you have a way to place and plug both probes at same time, that'll be an interesting test ;)


--Patrice

I was going to try yesterday but I couldnt but I have plans of creating a way to mount both on the tripod.. I think I can do it.

I do not mean to sound ignorant but I am so here goes. Can you elaborate a little on the colorshift? What exactly am I looking for?
Sorry for the newbie questions.
Kenal0

I do not mean to sound ignorant but I am so here goes. Can you elaborate a little on the colorshift? What exactly am I looking for?
Sorry for the newbie questions.
Kenal0


On my DLP..you will see it go from white to BLUE...some you will see go from white to grey...

I have the same issue with the latest version of HCFR v1.22f - gives me the EyeOne.dll returned an error during initialization; Device not connected. error message. Tried the add EyeOne.dll to the C:\Program Files\Colorimeter_HCFR folder, but no effect. The EyeOne works with the included EyeOne Match v3.6.1 software running on WinXP Pro laptop. Please, what's the trick here guys?? Thanks.

Edit: This is a brand new EyeOne Display LT sensor.

I have the same issue with the latest version of HCFR v1.22f - gives me the EyeOne.dll returned an error during initialization; Device not connected. error message. Tried the add EyeOne.dll to the C:\Program Files\Colorimeter_HCFR folder, but no effect. The EyeOne works with the included EyeOne Match v3.6.1 software running on WinXP Pro laptop. Please, what's the trick here guys?? Thanks.

Edit: This is a brand new EyeOne Display LT sensor.


try to see if you need a different version of the eyeone.DLL..I remember some folks having problems with the DTP-94 .DLL file and with a different version it worked..Maybe someone can zip one over to you..

I am getting stuck on trying to get the s curve out of my luminance chart but doing that causes my settings to an unviewable level. It dips way below 2.2 above 50. My color temp is a pretty steady as is my RGB histogram. This is not my Samsung DLP but an older Sony Plasma.(Samsung looks great and I am not messing with it anymore.)
Will the indivdual RGB gains and cuts affect this? Am I trying to do something that might be beyond the capability of the display?
Sorry again for the ignorant questions but " I got nowhere else to go".

Kenal0

You want to raise the amount of light output at certain video levels, but just don't have the controls to do this. There really is nowhere else to go, unfortunately.

I am getting stuck on trying to get the s curve out of my luminance chart but doing that causes my settings to an unviewable level. It dips way below 2.2 above 50. My color temp is a pretty steady as is my RGB histogram. This is not my Samsung DLP but an older Sony Plasma.(Samsung looks great and I am not messing with it anymore.)
Will the indivdual RGB gains and cuts affect this? Am I trying to do something that might be beyond the capability of the display?
Sorry again for the ignorant questions but " I got nowhere else to go".

Kenal0For plasma displays, you should use window patterns rather than full field patterns. For some reason plasma manufacturers tend to implement far to weak power supplies in their units. I have not yet came across a plasma display that can "hold" the gamma in full field measurements.

// Lyckman

For plasma displays, you should use window patterns rather than full field patterns.Doh!!!. I suspect Lyckman nailed it. I know you’ve been struggling and we’ve been suggesting things like white clipping or measuring the 90IRE pattern twice but that was always in reference to your DLP. If you follow Lyckman advise and drop to a 50% window, I’ll bet you’ll be sailin’. Great catch Lyckman.

For some reason plasma manufacturers tend to implement far to weak power supplies in their units.

For some of the bigger ones, the 15A breaker in your house might just trip when the thing goes to full frame white otherwise… <slight exaggeration>

Dave

When I display my results in xyY format, what are the units of Y?

Thanks in advance

Luminance or lightness (how bright the xy ‘color’ is)

Depending on your meter and S/W, it may be absolute (lumens, etc) or just relative.

Dave

Luminance or lightness (how bright the xy ‘color’ is)

Depending on your meter and S/W, it may be absolute (lumens, etc) or just relative.

Dave
Dave,

Thanks, but I'm still very new to all of this. I am using HCFR software with a SpyderExpress sensor.

Does that help?

My guess would be lumens or (lumensish??) are you seeing 100IRE white Y values of say oh... 50-500ish? or 1ish?, Lumens are just a guess however, I'm not real sure for HCFR and the S2.

Dave

bzzzt, not lumens for the S2. Because it uses a diffuser it would have to be lux=lumens/m^2. The problem with measuring illuminance though is that it is only appropriately defined for point sources and you must specify the distance at which the calibration is valid as illuminance varies as 1/r^2 Conclusion: the Y value of the S2 is meaningless in an absolute sense, fine for relative measurements.

hey Dave,

Nice shot of J. Wayne, was that from the Searchers?



note: luminance meters like the eye-one d2/LT are absolutely calibrated in candela/m^2=lumens/ster/m^2

Hi
I try the hcfr with spyder2 colormeter but in display information and in spectrum i don't have results(no spectrum data available). Any idea?

HCFR v1.22
CVSpyder.dll v4.0.7 and v4.1.1

Regards
Panos

bzzzt, not lumens for the S2.Drat. Too quick to ring in…Conclusion: the Y value of the S2 is meaningless in an absolute sense, fine for relative measurements. I’ll buy that. I don’t see many complaints about any of us having too much of it.Nice shot of J. Wayne, was that from the Searchers?
I dunno. I didn’t cap it.

Dave

For plasma displays, you should use window patterns rather than full field patterns. For some reason plasma manufacturers tend to implement far to weak power supplies in their units. I have not yet came across a plasma display that can "hold" the gamma in full field measurements.

// Lyckman
Thanks I will give it shot. The DLP is pretty close and really looks good. I still have a older Samsung DLP to do, 2 Sony 42 plasmas, a vizio 50, Vizio 32 and a Samsung 23.
Lots to practice on!!!!

Kenal0

It would be really nice if there were some tool in this software for visually representing continuous readings of the primary and secondary colors relative to a Rec. 601 or Rec. 709 standard. The continuous mode opens up a graph that displays real-time readings, but it is designed for white balance measurements only.

Is this tool available and I just haven't seen it? Without it, the only way to use this software with a CMS is to make complete runs of RGBCMY measurements, look at the CIE graph, make estimated adjustments, and then repeat as many times as necessary. This is VERY time consuming.

This feature is not (yet) available... ;)

--Patrice

bzzzt, not lumens for the S2. Because it uses a diffuser it would have to be lux=lumens/m^2. The problem with measuring illuminance though is that it is only appropriately defined for point sources and you must specify the distance at which the calibration is valid as illuminance varies as 1/r^2 Conclusion: the Y value of the S2 is meaningless in an absolute sense, fine for relative measurements.

note: luminance meters like the eye-one d2/LT are absolutely calibrated in candela/m^2=lumens/ster/m^2I've found that the DTP-94 is pretty reliable for absolute measurements. I've compared it with a PR-650 spectrometer and the DTP-94 was pretty much dead on considering luminance (cd/m2).

I get minor differences when moving the sensor. I thought about this a lot, and I think the answer lays in the unit "cd/m2". Since the sensor measures an area of the screen it should'nt matter how far away it is placed, as long as it's not placed far away to "see" outside the screen area, or close enough to make its shadow a big part of the measurement area.

The trick to find the correct position is to move the sensor while doing continous measurements. Find the highest peak, and leave the sensor there.

Above is appliciable to the spyder also (even though it is not a exact. Mine reports about 5% less luminance compared to the DTP-94). I would guess that the eye-one display 2/LT would work in the same way?

// Lyckman

Hi, I'm confused about the gamma setting in HCFR's preferences.
I've read that HCFR reads gamma incorrectly and that a gamma reading of 1.9 is actually closer to 2.2 in reality?

Why is that and how should I adjust my preferences to get a correct reading?

I'm using a spyder2 trying to get my PDP at acceptable levels :)

There so many options in HCFR that do strange things to my readings.
Black kompensation in the "spyder2 parameters" , Gamma with black compensation? and it's not really documented here or in the help file wich one to use when calibrating different displays.
If you have no reference the readings just make no sense.

Sorry for whining ;)
I'm still very greatful for this free software :rolleyes:

That is totaly wrong ;) There is no "reading" of Gamma... Just computing and display of it based on other readings and method used to display.

We offer four methods (explain earlier in this thread)... We think "Gamma With Black Comp" better suits for projector setups...
But you have other methods, especially the "Camera gamma / Std offset" that is more commonly use...

--Patrice

Laric-

When you get a FREE moment can you provide the info from Post 2075 "'ll explain later how you can build a calibration profile file for your set and our probe using the DTP94 as reference."

no rush - so get a move on it..JUSTKIDDIN'

That is totaly wrong ;) There is no "reading" of Gamma... Just computing and display of it based on other readings and method used to display.

We offer four methods (explain earlier in this thread)... We think "Gamma With Black Comp" better suits for projector setups...
But you have other methods, especially the "Camera gamma / Std offset" that is more commonly use...

--Patrice

Patrice,
Can you provide a link to that post?
It would be nice to have a list of which option to select under which conditions.
Thanks.

Love this SW!
RIch

Patrice,
Can you provide a link to that post?
It would be nice to have a list of which option to select under which conditions.
Thanks.

Love this SW!
RIch

Rich -

Start here...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9386895&&#post9386895

>It would be nice to have a list of which option to select under which conditions.
Thanks.

Yes I'd like that to.

I already have to many options when using the spyder2 with this software.
CRT mode or LCD mode, with filter or without...
Depending on who you ask you get a different answer :D


I think I should have bought a different colorimeter!

Some confirmed settings for calibrating plasma displays would be greatly appreciated. :p

It would be really nice if there were some tool in this software for visually representing continuous readings of the primary and secondary colors relative to a Rec. 601 or Rec. 709 standard.

I may be dreaming but I thought that if you had the CIE chart open during continuous measure that it also put a grey dot on the CIE chart that moves as it makes readings?

You are totally right ;)

--Patrice

Anyone here have any opinion on the performance of the Eye-one Display LT versus the DTP-94 as it performs for PLASMA? (or any other similarly priced performers)

I have the Panny 50" 9UK....GetGray....and of course....HCFR

Plasmas seem to be the ONLY type of display with which the Display 2 does not seem to yield good results. See

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9645333&&#post9645333

I may be dreaming but I thought that if you had the CIE chart open during continuous measure that it also put a grey dot on the CIE chart that moves as it makes readings?Thanks. This is just what I was looking for.

Tom beat me to it.

Strangely enough, on my particular plasma (NEC 61XR4) I am quite happy with the results.

Although the D2 appears to be sensitive to infra-red after calibration to D65K my picture does not appear to be cool, which you would expect if indeed the meter was over reading red. If anything I would say it's even a little on the warm side.

According to the marketing blurbs on my NEC the glass has filters that are supposed to reduce the extra orange/red (and perhaps IR?) that are inherent with plasma so I don't know if that explains my results.

Either way, I'm quite happy with the results.

Plasmas seem to be the ONLY type of display with which the Display 2 does not seem to yield good results. See

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9645333&&#post9645333

Thanks Tom, yes, I've read that. It just seems like so many have used the Display LT on plasma that someone must have figured out how to get around the issue...did I miss something?

IS there a workaround? Tom's comparisons have been the main reason I haven't gotten a Display LT.....is it's predecessor (the DTP) any better with respect to plasma?

Almost seems like the cheapo Spyder is better for Plasma.

I believe the DTP 94 has a built-in IR filter so it should be OK.

The other alternative is to calibrate with the Display2/LT for D65K and if it looks too "cool" just calibrate to a somewhat warmer temp.

I've found that the DTP-94 is pretty reliable for absolute measurements. I've compared it with a PR-650 spectrometer and the DTP-94 was pretty much dead on considering luminance (cd/m2).

I get minor differences when moving the sensor. I thought about this a lot, and I think the answer lays in the unit "cd/m2". Since the sensor measures an area of the screen it should'nt matter how far away it is placed, as long as it's not placed far away to "see" outside the screen area, or close enough to make its shadow a big part of the measurement area.


That's correct, good luminance meters have a well defined field-of-view and as long as you have a uniform source that fills that FOV you should see no change in the readings at any distance from the source.


The trick to find the correct position is to move the sensor while doing continous measurements. Find the highest peak, and leave the sensor there.


The fact that you can change the reading by changing the position means one of two things, either:
1. The source is not uniform, this can be caused by physics of the source illumination itself or due to external factors like shadows as you point out.
2. The source is not isotropic, meaning it's angular distribution is not uniform. LCD's are notorious for this.



Above is appliciable to the spyder also (even though it is not a exact. Mine reports about 5% less luminance compared to the DTP-94). I would guess that the eye-one display 2/LT would work in the same way?
// Lyckman

The spyder works differently, it does not measure luminance (lumen/steradian/m^2) it measures illuminance (lumen/m^2) by using what is sometimes called a lambertian collector. This is the opaque white plastic thing you see on the bottom of the sensor if you remove the filter. This diffuser "sees" a full hemispherical field of view and is designed to be able to measure the incident light from a point source falling on a surface from any direction. Unlike a luminance meter, if you move it away from your source, the signal will fall off proportional to the distance^2*. In the limiting case where the diffuser is very close to an extended source like a display and the meter was calibrated by the vendor at the same distance you can get a reading that comes close to what a luminance meter would give you. It that case it is the average luminance over 2pi steradians.

*note: the 1/d^2 relationship holds for point sources only, extended objects have a more complicated relationship for the variation of illuminance with distance.

From my poking around, it seems the Display LT is quite a bit cheaper than the remaining DTP94's.

Can you just buy an IR filter to put on the LT....problem solved? If so, where do buy such a thing?

From my poking around, it seems the Display LT is quite a bit cheaper than the remaining DTP94's.

Can you just buy an IR filter to put on the LT....problem solved? If so, where do buy such a thing?

I theory that seem like it would work..but to find that out will probably require leg work..Lucky for me I got my DTP for $108 new..

Hmmm...is the Monaco Optix XR identical to the DTR94 in every single way? (IR filter, etc.) ?

Hmmm...is the Monaco Optix XR identical to the DTR94 in every single way? (IR filter, etc.) ?


Yes..it the software that Monoca OPtix with the DTP-94 Probe..ths is what I have

Anyone here have any opinion on the performance of the Eye-one Display LT versus the DTP-94 as it performs for PLASMA? (or any other similarly priced performers)

I have the Panny 50" 9UK....GetGray....and of course....HCFR

I don't have the DisplayLT, but I do have the DTP-94 and a Spyder2. Both work great on my Sony CRT RPTV and my direct view CRT and LCD monitors.

However, I have a 50" 8UK, and I am still not convinced that the DTP-94 is suitable for plasma. As some other Plasma users have reported, my post-calibration results look great on paper, but my eyes see something different - generally a slightly greenish greyscale. The Spyder2 in LCD mode returns a similar but slightly better result visually.

My guess is that although the DTP-94 and the S2 (with filter) do a decent job of filtering infrared, the look up tables that the sensors use may be a bit off for plasma displays. It would be interesting to see if the S2TV Pro software compensates for this by manipulating the S2's raw XYZ data.

If only someone would lend me their PR-650 or Konica CS200, I could tell you for sure. :D

-JD

How does HCFR convert to nominal [0.0, 1.0] values in single (or continuous) measurement mode so that it can convert among the various xyY, XYZ, and RGB units? Does it use the contrast measurement black and white values? Or does it use values from the gray scale? Or does it do something completely different?

On a similar note, it looks like the GMB display 2 reports XYZ as its native output. If I select XYZ as the output of HCFR, does it post process the numbers from the sensor or would I see the actual reported values "straight" from the hardware?

For those that have built the HCFR Probe, how did you calibrate it?

Steve

Rich L posted a procedure including a non-neutral screen offset. See the following threads:


http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9964289&&#post9964289
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9966531&&#post9966531

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9386909&&#post9386909

I’ve also got a bit about training it. Check the webpage in my profile.

Dave

Anyone here have any opinion on the performance of the Eye-one Display LT versus the DTP-94 as it performs for PLASMA? (or any other similarly priced performers)

I have the Panny 50" 9UK....GetGray....and of course....HCFR

I have the Eye One Display LT and HFCR combo. I use it on my 50ph9uk panasonic plasma with fantastic results. The readings are smooth, stable and reproducable at least from 30 to 100%, and pretty good even at 20 if make sure the lights are out and you average longer.

Only problem I've had is with the program taking a really long time to return a measurement every once in a while -- Sometimes more than 1 minute or even locking up altogether when using continuous meas mode. Georges at HCFR looked into it but they could not find anything. I know for a fact that the lock up problem only happens when there is an abrupt jump in brightness level during a test, so I assume it is related to some sort of AGC tracking that gets whacked when I move outside it's present window. I will try another PC just to be sure when I get a chance.

The D2 definitely works.
To my eyes the end result is a beautifully balanced picture.

-Rich

Rich L posted a procedure including a non-neutral screen offset. See the following threads:


http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9964289&&#post9964289
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9966531&&#post9966531

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9386909&&#post9386909

I’ve also got a bit about training it. Check the webpage in my profile.

Dave

Dave -

I noticed you updated your HCFR probe website. Although I opened up a bit the sensor aperture holes - I decided to open up the box again, then I shifted up the sensor so that it was exposed out of the box (used two of the screw holes to mount it to the box. Then I put back the bottom and top of the box together (left out the small sides - obviously). I just like the idea of having more wide angle axis..

To the original poster on how to calibrate the sensor -

There is an existing list of already some of the more popular display devices that you can use as a calibration file but if your doesnt exist in that list, I would go with what I did on the 1st link that Dave provided. You will need to have an additional probe to work with 1st. The HCFR probe will have some advantages down the line hopefully with the the new release, but in the meantime you will need a secondary probe to do your first measures and use that to train your HCFRprobe, once that is done, you will be able to read exactly (more or less) how that other probe works - just that with the HCFR probe you might be able to read down lower than your other probe - ASSUME AWAY :D

Hi. I've been trying to get back into calibrating my TV again, and I'm running into my previous difficulties again. One of the main problems is the fact I'm using a Spyder2express, which has difficulty reading at low IREs. Specifically, when trying to read at 0 IRE, I get the error "No Data From Sensor" no matter how long I set the read time (and also checking the options "Extend read time for dark measurements," and "Average many reads..."). At least from 10 IRE and onwards I can get readings, however after doing a run, since I'm not getting any data on the 0 IRE, when I try looking at the RGB and Luminance histographs, they don't show any data. Has anyone else had this problem, or know how to resolve this issue? It's frustrating enough that I can't get a 0 IRE reading, however I don't mind sacrificing that as long as I can calibrate the rest, but I can't even do that in the current state.

I have the same issue with the latest version of HCFR v1.22f - gives me the EyeOne.dll returned an error during initialization; Device not connected. error message. Tried the add EyeOne.dll to the C:\Program Files\Colorimeter_HCFR folder, but no effect. The EyeOne works with the included EyeOne Match v3.6.1 software running on WinXP Pro laptop. Please, what's the trick here guys?? Thanks.

Edit: This is a brand new EyeOne Display LT sensor.

Just an update to this issue:

Resolved! The problem turned out to be my PC found/used an older version of the .dll file. After cleaning out all the old software and system files, a fresh install and the latest Display LT drivers yielded the latest .dll which also needed to be manually inserted into the main HCFR Program Files folder.

Thanks all for the help and this excellent application!

richlo,

Where is the list of displays? I have a Mitsubishi HC3000U projector and I'm thinking about building the HCFR Probe, but have no way to calibrate it once it's built.

Thanks,
Steve

Where is the list of displays?
Look in the following path on your system for *.thc files. These are the ‘pre-built’ included HCFR probe calibration files. The list is updated and new ones are downloaded on an update.

C:\Program Files\Colorimeter_HCFR\Etalon_HCFR

Dave

richlo,

Where is the list of displays? I have a Mitsubishi HC3000U projector and I'm thinking about building the HCFR Probe, but have no way to calibrate it once it's built.

Thanks,
Steve


I have the same machine..If you open the program and start a new, when it comes time to select your probe, below that is a file list you can click on to select them..There are 3 for the HC3000, 2 of which are the same the other is for a filter on it (it will be obvious which file that is)

Hi,

I've seen these prebuilt .thc files. I'm curious to know what sensor was used to get the references, particularly the NEC6pg file.

Hi,

I've seen these prebuilt .thc files. I'm curious to know what sensor was used to get the references, particularly the NEC6pg file.


I asked the very same question sometime earlier with no result..Hopefully they just missed the question. I know I built mine just using my DTP-94.

What are the prebuilt files used for?

They are mostly done using EyeOne Beamer, their purpose is to apply corrections for a particular set (projector/bulb...) to our probe...

--Patrice

I'm not familiar with the EyeOne Beamer, is this a high end probe?

In other words, if you aren't using the HCFR "home made" colorimeter, DON'T use these files!

I'm not familiar with the EyeOne Beamer, is this a high end probe?
It's the lowest-end device using the highest-end technology :) It's probably one of the most accurate devices in the "reasonably affordable" category.

To create these adjustment files, (I assume) they would have measured the screen with a Beamer, then the same screen with the HCFR probe, across a variety of test patterns and video levels. The differences in each measurement would be the "correction factor". So, when you load an adjustment file, it will add or subtract the correction factor to the readings from the HCFR probe at the given level.

In other words, if you aren't using the HCFR "home made" colorimeter, DON'T use these files!
You cannot anyway ;)

--Patrice

Adam - do make sure your secondaries are on the same line that connects the primaries which make them up. Also check the Lightness (luminance) of each color and tweak that to standards assuming your pj offers this adjustment on a per color basis. You have to do this by hand but Laric and team may considering adding this calibration as a feature in a future release.
Also check the Lightness (luminance) of each color and tweak that to standards assuming your pj offers this adjustment on a per color basis.

lovingdvd,
My dlp pj offers "lightness" adjustment per color (primary and secondary). What are the standards that lightness should be adjusted to? Can this be done with HCFR?
Will tweaking lightness have any effect on the x,y CIE color positions as tweaking saturation and hue do?
Thanks for your help.
Fermin

lovingdvd,
My dlp pj offers "lightness" adjustment per color (primary and secondary). What are the standards that lightness should be adjusted to? Can this be done with HCFR?
Will tweaking lightness have any effect on the x,y CIE color positions as tweaking saturation and hue do?
Thanks for your help.
Fermin

Adjust the "lightness" such that the luminance reading of a primary = the luminance reading of the same primary in a grey scale patch at the same IRE level. This can be done with HCFR real-time measures.

edit: I mispoke here, replace lightness with "saturation/color"

Well I bought a HCFR unit from Dave so I will be using it for adjusting my CRT pj, thus the reason I'm digging for info on this. I have a Minolta unit but I have no idea where the cal is at with it and these unit don't seem very good at lower ire's.

Well I bought a HCFR unit from Dave so I will be using it for adjusting my CRT pj, thus the reason I'm digging for info on this. I have a Minolta unit but I have no idea where the cal is at with it and these unit don't seem very good at lower ire's.

is it the minolta 2130 or ca-100 or 2150 - only good 40IRE and up for me

It's the 2150, and yes 30 to 40 seems to be the bottom limit.

Adjust the "lightness" such that the luminance reading of a primary = the luminance reading of the same primary in a grey scale patch at the same IRE level. This can be done with HCFR real-time measures.

Zoyd,
Thank you for your comments.
I have tried to implement them in HCFR using the HCFR calibration disc. I am confused as to how exactly I should proceed.
The luminance/gamma graph gives me a "percentage" figure for the primaries depending on the IRE level and for 100IRE it is always 100%.
A second hurdle is that I don't know what is the IRE of the primaries as shown by the HCFR disc. I am assuming it is 100 IRE and if i choose xyY units I then can read a value for Y which is not a "percentage".
What to do?? Please help, I need a bit of hand holding here.
Thanks.
Fermin

Hi FGM,

I'm sorry but I'm not familiar with the HCFR test patterns, I use the getgray ones but I would imaging HCFR has similar patterns. The way I set color saturation (which I've assumed is your "lightness" setting) is to take a 75% white pattern and record the blue luminance reading using the free measures window. (If you click on the display measures icon when you have free measures running, it will bring up a window which includes the RGB readings). I then put up a 75% blue pattern and adjust saturation (color) until it matchs the blue reading from the white pattern.

hope that helps,

-scott

Why do you do it that way instead of just using the CIE diagram and 100% windows?

Hi FGM,

I'm sorry but I'm not familiar with the HCFR test patterns, I use the getgray ones but I would imaging HCFR has similar patterns. The way I set color saturation (which I've assumed is your "lightness" setting) is to take a 75% white pattern and record the blue luminance reading using the free measures window. (If you click on the display measures icon when you have free measures running, it will bring up a window which includes the RGB readings). I then put up a 75% blue pattern and adjust saturation (color) until it matchs the blue reading from the white pattern.

hope that helps,

-scott

I hope your not saying to use Color to adjust to the CIE points...this is incorrect. Color Decoder and CIE RBG color points are two diff things...CIE will be the luminance part of the color, not the color itself, very few display allow you to move those points. Always set color and tint with filters..Some displays such as the MIts3000U, when you track a D65, it gives you a perfect color decoder but this is not the norm with most displays

This method is not for setting tint, just color and is equivalent to the standard filter method. You are just matching luminance between the pure color and the same component used to get your color temperature (gray scale). For tint, if you trust your meter, you can just balance blue and red with 75% magenta pattern.

This method is not for setting tint, just color and is equivalent to the standard filter method. You are just matching luminance between the pure color and the same component used to get your color temperature (gray scale). For tint, if you trust your meter, you can just balance blue and red with 75% magenta pattern.

now I got it..kewl..I need to try this with a Mits with colorperfect ..

Why do you do it that way instead of just using the CIE diagram and 100% windows?

Because the CIE diagram combines color location information with saturation so it's harder to separate the two. The method I described doesn't care about color location, just like the blue filter method.

Hi FGM,

I'm sorry but I'm not familiar with the HCFR test patterns, I use the getgray ones but I would imaging HCFR has similar patterns. The way I set color saturation (which I've assumed is your "lightness" setting) is to take a 75% white pattern and record the blue luminance reading using the free measures window. (If you click on the display measures icon when you have free measures running, it will bring up a window which includes the RGB readings). I then put up a 75% blue pattern and adjust saturation (color) until it matchs the blue reading from the white pattern.

hope that helps,

-scott

Scott,
When using DVI input, my pj has , in the Service Menu, per color adjustments for saturation, tint and "lightness".
The saturation and tint move the CIE points around; i.e. change the x,y location of the primary and secondary colors. The "lightness" adjustment does not appear to change the x,y CIE values but rather the "brilliance" of the respective color. It is some sort of color brightness/intensity adjustment. If I understood him correctly, Krasmuzik, of this forum, has somehow equated lightness to brightness "Y" or the third dimension of the xyY color space.
When I use the DVI input for the pj, the user menu overall color and tint adjustments that are available when using a component input become greyed out/not available.
I find it peculiar that after adjusting the x,y locations as close as possible to the ideal CIE diagram positions, the saturation and hue color bars of S&V(Avia) as seen through the blue filter are off. I wonder, is this because the lightness is off?
In post #1295 of this thread, lovingdvd wrote"i) Please add a Luminance calibrator function for calibrating the correct Y value in xyY measurements when measuring primaries/secondaries. CF does not have this and it would be a great addition. Let me explain further.

As you know when setting primaries/secondaries not only do you have to get xy right but also Y. Currently I have to do this manually. First I measure white and note its Y value. Then I know by standards that red Y is x% of white Y. So I then measure Y for red and have to adjust its "Lightness" until it is at the right % of white. I do this by using only raw measurements and keeping track in my head or with pen/paper. Instead it would be great if you had a table or something that would update with each single reading that showed the % of Y for the reading vs. its target of % of white by spec!"

My original post, to which you kindly answered, was looking for clarification as to how to implement the adjustments described by lovingdvd. Scott, does your answer to my post address the same issue lovingdvd describes above? Is in your opinion the value x, when we measure white in xyY units, the right percentage % of white Y that should equal the value of Red Y and can these values be adjusted with the "lightness" adjustment?
As you can see I am pretty confused.
Thank you all for your comments/help.

Kras is right about that, lightness is equivalent to a gray scale adjustment, i.e. it won't effect the x,y position. It represents the black-white axis in the HLS color space. So you can use that to adjust gamma on a per color basis. Sorry for confusing you on that. This also sounds like what lovingdvd is describing.

The previously described method applies to saturation which moves the color point inside/outside the triangle relative to the white point. (Hue/tint moves the point around the triangle). Hope that helps.

To the HCFR team:

eyeone.dll version 3.3.1.115 or 3.3.0.114
HCFR version 1.22f

Don't know if this has been reported before (I couldn't find it via search) but the Display 2 CRT mode does not work with HCFR, it returns an "error during initialization" error or "can't sync to refresh rate". I know it's not the hardware because it has no problem in CRT mode using the software package that came with the probe (Eye-one match). Also, the display 2 will quite often freeze during a gray scale scan or some other abrupt change in luminance, this also never happens with the match software.

thanks,

-scott

Could I bother you by asking to take a look at the results of my latest run with HCFR Colorimetre?

I spent my weekend trying to get my plasma on track using this great piece of software :D

My issue is that after my calibration blacks are "glowing" with red, and the image seems much to saturated and with way to much contrast.

But looking at my graphs I can't see any of this.. :confused:

Am I overlooking some setting that caused this in the software itself ?

I know the results aren't perfect ( yet! ) but I must be doing something wrong cause the image looks very bad.
This is also very easy to notice when I compare it to my D65 calibrated CRT.

I'm using a Spyder2 without the filter on, and GetGray's DVD.
( with the filter on I think the results would be even more "red" )

Thanks, and forgive me if this is the wrong place to post this question :(

Also I found a small bug in the software, when using GDI patterns ( calibrating my pc CRT ) sometimes the program window pops up when reading fullscreen patterns! making the results very strange ;)

Could I bother you by asking to take a look at the results of my latest run with HCFR Colorimetre?

I spent my weekend trying to get my plasma on track using this great piece of software :D

My issue is that after my calibration blacks are "glowing" with red, and the image seems much to saturated and with way to much contrast.

But looking at my graphs I can't see any of this.. :confused:

Am I overlooking some setting that caused this in the software itself ?

I know the results aren't perfect ( yet! ) but I must be doing something wrong cause the image looks very bad.
This is also very easy to notice when I compare it to my D65 calibrated CRT.

I'm using a Spyder2 without the filter on, and GetGray's DVD.
( with the filter on I think the results would be even more "red" )

Thanks, and forgive me if this is the wrong place to post this question :(

Also I found a small bug in the software, when using GDI patterns ( calibrating my pc CRT ) sometimes the program window pops up when reading fullscreen patterns! making the results very strange ;)

I'm pretty certain that the filter is supposed to be left in place for all TVs except CRT.

I'm pretty certain that the filter is supposed to be left in place for all TVs except CRT.

There is no definitive answer on this as yet. From a logical standpoint Grip77 has followed the correct procedure as plasmas are much closer to CRT's than LCD's in spectral distribution. I use the S2 in CRT mode without the filter and get great results, as did colin6969 from the other HCFR thread.

Grip77, please describe your set-up for calibration, which inputs used, dvdplayer etc. and then which source shows the oversaturated results.

Thanks for taking the time to answer.

I'm using my Panasonic 42" TH-PV60 ( PX60 in USA) as a HTPC display.
Input is VGA-PC ( only one that can be 1:1 pixelmapped on this display ).
Software outputting video levels (16-235), no software adjustmenst made to colors,tint etc.

The European model is a pain in the a*s to calibrate!
Since you don't have a "recall" button on the remote you are stuck on dynamic mode with crazy setting on brightness,contrast,sharpness when you enter the service meny. ( can't get to brightness settings etc. without exiting SM )

The only thing I can change is between cool, normal and warm modes ( in Dynamic )

I've been trying to calibrate it in Dynamic "Warm" mode since warm is the closest to D65.

What I do is using Getgrays DVD, calibrate it by first setting all the user settings ( bright,contr,sharpness) in dynamic mode (warm) and then I measure gray scale.

I then enter the service meny, (which resets dynamic mode to max brightness etc.) and make one change to cuts or drive and then I exit the SM, set the bright,contr,shrpn back to my settings and runt the measure again.

Is this time consuming and annoying ? YES :D


Now for my issue, the red "glow" only appears on my calibrated (dynamic, warm) mode.
No other profiles/modes are affected and they don't suffer from any red "glow" either.
I cant see any excessive red in the RGB levels histogram, but I notice it on the display, and also on the getgray 5% step ramp.

Sources are DVD's, avi's and still pictures from my camera etc.
Everything displayed through my HTPC.
Same HTPC has no issues on these sources on my calibrated CRT display.
I can even see the red glow when there is no input signal and the display is showing a black screen ( VGA input dynamic-warm)

Red glow = dark red pixels lit in black areas on screen, looks a bit like red noise or to much red in low IRE's.

Hope I made myself understood, english is not my native language ( as you surely can tell ;) )

Thanks for taking the time to answer.

I'm using my Panasonic 42" TH-PV60 ( PX60 in USA) as a HTPC display.
Input is RGB ( only one that can be 1:1 pixelmapped on this display ).

The European model is a pain in the a*s to calibrate!

Since you don't have a "recall" button on the remote you are stuck on dynamic mode with crazy setting on brightness,contrast,sharpness when you enter the service meny.

The only thing I can change is between cool, normal and warm modes ( in Dynamic )

I've been trying to calibrate it in Dynamic "Warm" mode since warm is the closest to D65.

What I do is using Getgrays DVD, calibrate it by first setting all the settings ( bright,contr,sharpness) in dynamic mode (warm) and then I measure gray scale.

I then enter the service meny, which resets dynamic mode to max brightness etc. and make one change to cuts or drive and then I exit the SM, set the bright,contr,shrpn back to my settings and runt the measure again.

Is this time consuming and annoying ? YES :D


Quite a mess! :eek: You shouldn't have to exit and reenter SM mode like that. On the PX model I can change from dynamic (called vivid on my set) to the other modes using the menu key while I'm in the service menu. Alternatively you should be able to set dynamic mode to the exact same contrast, brightness, warm settings as the other modes and calibrate in that mode without the SM resetting those values.

Can't be done on EU model.
Menu button is disabled while in Service menu. :p

Also entering SM always resets brightness,contrast and sharpness to factory defaults.

I'm not the only european to experience this.

Workaround was to exit service menu and set any setting to your likings, and then press RECALL button 4 times.
Unfortunately the recall button has been removed on the EU modells :D

( Not renamed or replaced, just totally removed )

I've tried all known ways of entering the SM with the same result.
( Bruzzi's site is very helpfull! )

But don't worry I've gotten used to it, and as I said I can work around it.
Dynamic or Vivid as it's called in the US models only differs from the other modes in brightness and in cut, drive values so it's no big deal. Also If i mess it up it's no loss ;)
And as I said I always set brightness and all other user setting back again before measuring.

(Sorry I meant VGA not RGB input in previous post ( edited )

Also entering SM always resets brightness,contrast and sharpness to factory defaults.


If this is the case then how can you get dynamic:warm in the SM? Note: In my SM warm=low, standard=mid, cool=high

There are six memory locations I can set HD:warm, HD:mid, HD:high, SD:warm, SD:mid, SD:high

Which of these memory locations can you modify?

Also entering SM always resets brightness,contrast and sharpness to factory defaults.

I assume you mean the user controls? If so, does the set have sub-brightness, sub-contrast and sub-sharpness controls in the SM? Normal procedure for these is to set the user controls to nominal and calibrate with the sub-xxxxx controls.

:cool:

I assume you mean the user controls? If so, does the set have sub-brightness, sub-contrast and sub-sharpness controls in the SM? Normal procedure for these is to set the user controls to nominal and calibrate with the sub-xxxxx controls.

:cool:

It has sub-brightness (called WB-Bright in the SM), and ALL-DRV, ALL-CUT options. It does not have a sub-sharpness.

>Zoyd

I'ts the only setting "remembered" ( or not reset if you prefer )when I enter the SM
menu.

The VGA input only has memory locations for low/mid/high. and dynamic/normal/cinema (not HD/SD) (at least It only has one native res that I use all others are scaled and of no interest to me)
It's 1024x768 non square after all.
Not like the HDMI inputs that have settings fpor SD/HD. ( I guess)

And yes I have verified that I'm in warm/low mode in dynamic.
And that the changes I do are "realized".


>jimwhite

Thanks for showing interest in my issue! :)
You are right, and I do have those options just as Zoyd mentioned.
Reason is I didn't know what those settings did until just recently ( 2 days ago after reading through ALOT of avsforum posts :D )
Those settings are called "sub bright" and "sub-contr" on my EU model ( no sharpness settings in SM )

>Zoyd

I'ts the only setting "remembered" ( or not reset if you prefer )when I enter the SM
menu.
The VGA input only has memory locations for low/mid/high. (not HD/SD)
And yes I have verified that I'm in warm/low mode :)



ok, forgot that the vga input has it's own memory location. It also has an analog gain control under PCT-ADJ if I recall. Anyway, so I now understand what you are doing and it should work. I noticed your luminance readings are quite high, as a test I would lower the input gain I mentioned until you get max IRE readings of 100-110. I'm assuming also that your S2 is very close to the panel. If as you stated earlier you can actually see the red in a greyscale pattern and the S2 is not seeing it, then there is something wrong with the meter.

Hi,everyone just signed up to this site hope its ok too ask about Sony 55" LCD Projection HD-TV Grand WEGA®,I heard that DLP are better for watching sports,but can give migraines,and im very proned to that,so I bought a LCD,but not crazy about picture while watching hockey,other viewing is good,can anyone help for some good settings for this model thanks for the time,have a nice day.

Hi,everyone just signed up to this site hope its ok too ask about Sony 55" LCD Projection HD-TV Grand WEGA®,I heard that DLP are better for watching sports,but can give migraines,and im very proned to that,so I bought a LCD,but not crazy about picture while watching hockey,other viewing is good,can anyone help for some good settings for this model thanks for the time,have a nice day.
model number is a KDF-55E2000

>Zoyd

I recall the PCT-ADJ option from the SM, didn't know what it was for though.
I'll give it a try!

Yes I have the Spyder "stuck" to the glass when doing measures.
I used the same meter when calibrating my 21" CRT ( PC monitor) and the picture there is excellent ( In my humble opinion ).

Thanks for being so helpful!

By the way what are the "All Drv"" and "All Cut" settings for ?
I know about Drive,Cut / Bias,Gain but never heard of "ALL Drive/Cut"

I'm also considering taking measures with the filter on just for comparison.
Or do you think it would be a waste of time ? ( With my crazy SM it takes some time going back and forth ;) )

>Zoyd

I recall the PCT-ADJ option from the SM, didn't know what it was for though.
I'll give it a try!

Yes I have the Spyder "stuck" to the glass when doing measures.
I used the same meter when calibrating my 21" CRT ( PC monitor) and the picture there is excellent ( In my humble opinion ).

Thanks for being so helpful!

By the way what are the "All Drv"" and "All Cut" settings for ?
I know about Drive,Cut / Bias,Gain but never heard of "ALL Drive/Cut"

I'm also considering taking measures with the filter on just for comparison.
Or do you think it would be a waste of time ? ( With my crazy SM it takes some time going back and forth ;) )

ALL_DRV, ALL_CUT are just cuts/drives that move RGB together like user brightness/contrast.

You could try the filter, it should read about 15% higher luminance and somewhat higher blue and green realtive to red but I don't see how it will solve your problem. Just to make sure, you are using CRT mode without the filter and the honeycomb baffle, right?

I thougt so too, yes I'm using it without the baffle on ( and the blue filter is built into that baffle ) in CRT mode.
Also I have extended the read time to 500ms to get more accurate readings in low IRE.

I just watched a few episodes of "Two and a half men" with my girlfriend, and it was ( to me ) painful :D
To much contrast, not enough brightness and reddish blacks.

I highly suggest using LCD mode w/ filter ON, period. I know plasma is similar to CRT but that mode isn't that accurate (that mode just synchronizes with the scanning speed) coupled with the fact that the Spyder doesn't read luminance correctly without the filter(when using CRT mode)...oh yeah, not so accurate at reading color either.

Using CRT mode with filter on is throwing more wood to the fire! Terrible results.

I highly suggest using LCD mode w/ filter ON, period. I know plasma is similar to CRT but that mode isn't that accurate (that mode just synchronizes with the scanning speed) coupled with the fact that the Spyder doesn't read luminance correctly without the filter(when using CRT mode)...oh yeah, not so accurate at reading color either.

Using CRT mode with filter on is throwing more wood to the fire! Terrible results.

Complete rubbish.

Read this (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=820285) thread. If you have contrary evidence showing that the S2-CRT mode is inaccurate, please share it with us.

Also, the display 2 will quite often freeze during a gray scale scan or some other abrupt change in luminance, this also never happens with the match software.

thanks,

-scott

When HCFR appears to freeze on me it's usually when I'm doing a continuous measure and I switch from a high luminance to a low luminance. If I wait long enough, it eventually comes back, or I can get it back by switching back to a higher luminance.

I presume it's because of the allowable percent error that HCFR has under the sensor settings. To estimate percent error, HCFR would have to take multiple readings and compare them. If it takes a reading when you have high luminance, and then takes a check reading after you've switched, it would have a high error value. It would then have to keep taking readings until the error percentage drops below the minimum value. Since low readings take a long time in the first place, it takes much longer to "correct" the reading when switching from high to low luminance than when switching from low to high....
Roy

I see it just changing from one pattern to the next, occasionally while tweaking a single pattern. I'll try playing with the %error value and see if that makes a difference.

Complete rubbish.

Read this (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=820285) thread. If you have contrary evidence showing that the S2-CRT mode is inaccurate, please share it with us.

Hi Zoyd

Have you done a comparison on the S2-CRT mode on a Rear-Projector CRT and compared that - ;)

Hi Zoyd

Have you done a comparison on the S2-CRT mode on a Rear-Projector CRT and compared that - not a 21" directview ;)

no, all the comparisons were with plasmas.

Complete rubbish.

Read this (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=820285) thread. If you have contrary evidence showing that the S2-CRT mode is inaccurate, please share it with us.
I'm sure you know that comparing the S2 to D2 is useless since the D2 is inaccurate with Plasmas without an IR filter. Calman folks even have said that CRT mode only works best w/ Direct CRT. There's data comparing the S2 to iONE Pro for better info. use search. That's about all the "rubbish" information I care to share ;) .

I'm sure you know that comparing the S2 to D2 is useless since the D2 is inaccurate with Plasmas without an IR filter.
If you had read the thread I pointed out and educated yourself to the current debate regarding comparisons of the various meters/modes you would hopefully realize that there is no evidence other than anecdotal to support that statement. In fact, there is non-anecdotal (i.e. real data) presented in that thread to support the opposite conclusion.

Calman's (Bill's) current position on this is:
"As for the documentation on the theory of a plasma vs. other types of display, please do note that the genesis of this was that a particular meter has been observed to have some difficulty with one type of measurement on one type of display technology. We had a hypothesis (testable, clearly stated) that an IR filter might help its accuracy. We have evidence, anecdotal at this point, that this seems to have helped. Do we have alternate hypotheses? Sure, including the null hypothesis. The genesis of the idea was pretty basic since we are working at the implementation level: if there is excess red being measured, then perhaps there is excess near-red that is being measured that ought not to be. Simple. Testable.

We will work with folks that want to look into this and try to see if we can't provide some evidence one way or another. We will then analyze the data as best as we can and provide results in appropriate places. Nothing more. Nothing less."

Calman folks even have said that CRT mode only works best w/ Direct CRT.

I realize they have said that, but there is no evidence to support it's veracity.
There's data comparing the S2 to iONE Pro for better info use search.
If you are talking about Tom Huffman's plots here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=782500&page=2&pp=30) This was done with the S2 in LCD mode which is not applicable to this discussion. There are currently no measurements on this forum comparing the S2:CRT-mode with the i1pro. Hopefully Tom will post some shortly with some analysis quantifying where the disagreement between the two meters exists.

Wow, a search button! Who knew! Ok, so I took it for a test spin and found this:

Greetings

Yes, did a whole bunch of tests with 6 spyder probes versus the CS200 over 50 displays over a weeks time.
Unfortunately, I am not at liberty to discuss the findings publically at the moment.
Regards
__________________
Michael @ The Laser Video Experience
Lion A/V Consultants Network

A subsequent PM to Michael produced this response:
The nice thing is that the probes{S2} work just fine on plasma technology as on CRTs.
The issues occur when you use them on RPTVs of the DLP and LCD and LCOS nature.

For plasma ... they give the same result as the $11K device ...
Michael also said that this is a general statement supported by many calibrations and should not be construed as a result of any particular set of tests.

That's about all the "rubbish" information I care to share ;)
Well, at least you got that part right.

When HCFR appears to freeze on me it's usually when I'm doing a continuous measure and I switch from a high luminance to a low luminance. If I wait long enough, it eventually comes back, or I can get it back by switching back to a higher luminance.

I presume it's because of the allowable percent error that HCFR has under the sensor settings. To estimate percent error, HCFR would have to take multiple readings and compare them. If it takes a reading when you have high luminance, and then takes a check reading after you've switched, it would have a high error value. It would then have to keep taking readings until the error percentage drops below the minimum value. Since low readings take a long time in the first place, it takes much longer to "correct" the reading when switching from high to low luminance than when switching from low to high....
Roy


YES! YES! YES! This is exactly the "freeze" I've been talking about. I discussed it with HCFR a couple of months back but they could not reproduce it. I dropped out of the discussion for a while. Has the cause been identified?

Patrice/Georges:

Have you found out anything regarding the root cause of this? The hypothesis suggested in the above post sounds possible. I, too, notice the freeze is brought on by abruptly changing brightness levels during grayscale test.

Can anything be done to correct this?

Thanks,
Rich

I'm sure you know that comparing the S2 to D2 is useless since the D2 is inaccurate with Plasmas without an IR filter. Calman folks even have said that CRT mode only works best w/ Direct CRT. There's data comparing the S2 to iONE Pro for better info. use search. That's about all the "rubbish" information I care to share ;) .


WHat is all this about the D2 being useless with Plasmas?

Do you mean the Eye One Display LT? I believe this is a D2 probe.

I get fantastic results using this with my plasma, and I do not have a filter.

The only issue I have is the "freeze-up" issue I posted above.

I somebody out there having trouble calibrating a plasma with a D2?

Works for me!
Rich

I have also experienced this issue. Problem occurs in continuous measurement mode when I'm flipping between 20/80 or 30/80. Sometimes it takes 40 or more seconds to "recover". Once or twice it locked up completely.

What I have done as a work-around is to hit F8 (stops continuous measurement), wait a few seconds, then switch to the higher IRE. Then I repeatedly use F7 to take single measurements.

Using a Thinkpad T20 with Win2000 SP4, EyeOne DisplayLT.

Isn't the "freeze" just the time it takes to read very low light levels? For example, if you're on a 10 IRE test pattern and you hit stop to end continous measurements, it doesn't return control until the read in progress completes.

If you uncheck "Average many reads on dark measurements" (Sensor->Configure menu), then the freeze should go away, but it will affect accuracy.

Isn't the "freeze" just the time it takes to read very low light levels? For example, if you're on a 10 IRE test pattern and you hit stop to end continous measurements, it doesn't return control until the read in progress completes.

If you uncheck "Average many reads on dark measurements" (Sensor->Configure menu), then the freeze should go away, but it will affect accuracy.

No, the problem occurs when switching from a low IRE to a high IRE. I have tried it with and without the "average many reads" option, same results. Doesn't the continuous read mode disregard the average setting anyway? I think the average only affects the 10 point scale readings.

zoyd, you still show NOTHING proving the fact that CRT/no filter is the RIGHT method. To even suggest trying CRT/filter on is just ludicrous! ColorHCFR is not even taking the filter into account. To question Calman's findings is terrible since they worked closely with the S2 manufacturer and have obviously done countless testing. Need evidence, ask them for it. Explain the fact that SpyderTV asks the user to place filter on for Plasma.

rpauls, if you look here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9645333&&#post9645333) you'll see that the D2 reads RED higher that it should. If the picture looks good to you then I'm sure you wouldn't worry 'bout it.

Isn't the "freeze" just the time it takes to read very low light levels? For example, if you're on a 10 IRE test pattern and you hit stop to end continous measurements, it doesn't return control until the read in progress completes.

If you uncheck "Average many reads on dark measurements" (Sensor->Configure menu), then the freeze should go away, but it will affect accuracy.

No. This freeze-up is completely different. It occurs when the light level changes even at high brightness, say going from 70% to 80%, and even if "Average many reads on dark measurements" is not selected. I am familiar with the delay at low light levels that the above feature introduces as you described, and this is different.

Like the other poster, I have tried to get around it by manually stoping measurements, then changing the level, then restarting measurements, but this is not very effective. Even if I am just tweaking one of the color gains to add a pinch of blue, for example, it will frequently lock up for 30-40 seconds before the measurements become periodic and regular again.

It is really frustrating. I stopped discussing it on this forum because I just figured it was my pc mot being fast enough (PIII), but it appears others are having the same problem so I am interested in resolving it now.

Is the common denominator in all this the D2 probe?

Is there anyone out there experiencing "freeze-up" who is not using a D2?

Anyone using a D2 who never experiences "freeze-up"?

Thanks

Rich

Rich,

My laptop is also a PIII, so I originally attributed it to CPU speed as well. What OS are you using? As I mentioned above, I use Win2K SP4.

Anyone using a D2 who never experiences "freeze-up"?

Based on the explanation then....me! So far, at least. I've used the D2 to calibrate a half-dozen displays so far (but grey scale for every input type, so perhaps 30 grey scales). Laptop is a Dell P4-based model (Inspiron 5100).

Of course, now that I've said this, it'll lock up next time I use it!

zoyd, you still show NOTHING proving the fact that CRT/no filter is the RIGHT method. My only claim is that there is no evidence that it is inaccurate and that there is evidence using two independent tests (via jdbimmer and myself) showing that it agrees with the D2 and the DTP-94 to within about 100 K and the RGB measurements are within 3 percent. Putting words into people's mouths is a standard argumentative technique for someone who doesn't know what they are talking about.
To even suggest trying CRT/filter on is just ludicrous!
You read my post incorrectly, I made no such suggestion. The probe has two different calibration tables, 1 for LCD:filter-on and 1 for CRT:filter-off, any other use would negate the calibration.
ColorHCFR is not even taking the filter into account.
ColorHCFR could care less if the filter is installed or not, it just sends up the requested mode (LCD or CRT) and reads the sensor output xyY.
To question Calman's findings is terrible since they worked closely with the S2 manufacturer and have obviously done countless testing. Need evidence, ask them for it. I have asked repeatedly for any direct evidence that the S2:CRT mode is inaccurate on plasmas and none has been posted. I'd be more than happy to review any data they have.

Explain the fact that SpyderTV asks the user to place filter on for Plasma.
You misunderstand my point completely (not a suprise given your attitude), S2:LCD mode may be just fine to use with a plasma, there is no reason I can see that it wouldn't be, given an accurate calibration. My point is that the same thing can be said of CRT mode and there has been no evidence to the contrary.

Based on the explanation then....me! So far, at least. I've used the D2 to calibrate a half-dozen displays so far (but grey scale for every input type, so perhaps 30 grey scales). Laptop is a Dell P4-based model (Inspiron 5100).

Of course, now that I've said this, it'll lock up next time I use it!

Well, I just went back and read all the posts by TomHuffman. His data seem so clearly show the D2 does not work right for plasma.

Can anyone else confirm this?

I bought the D2 because the folks at HCFR said it was the preferred choice (other than building their custom probe).

Has there been any word from HCFR on this since Tom's experiments were posted? Can anything be done to make the D2 useful for plasma? Can the red offset be corrected with calibration?

Could an IR filter be obtained? Where? How much?

Does Calman have any solution for this? If I purchase Calman SW will the D2 become useful?

Thanks,
Rich

Well, I just went back and read all the posts by TomHuffman. His data seem so clearly show the D2 does not work right for plasma.

Can anyone else confirm this?

I bought the D2 because the folks at HCFR said it was the preferred choice (other than building their custom probe).

Has there been any word from HCFR on this since Tom's experiments were posted? Can anything be done to make the D2 useful for plasma? Can the red offset be corrected with calibration?

Could an IR filter be obtained? Where? How much?

Does Calman have any solution for this? If I purchase Calman SW will the D2 become useful?

Thanks,
Rich

:eek: I give up.

Don't worry, I'm sure calman will solve all of your problems.

:eek: I give up.

Don't worry, I'm sure calman will solve all of your problems.

Many companies will claim to solve all our problems, but it is up to us to sort through it all and find the truth. That's the great advantage of a public forum. Information!


I think my plasma looks fantastic after calibration with the D2 and HFCR as I've already said. Tom's findings are really shocking though, and I want to know more.

If Red is off so bad, why doe my calibration look so good? Could the panasonic pro plasmas have NIR filtering built into the glass?

Most importantly, when doing any scientific study, especially like this that totally changes everything we've thought about the D2, it is essential to have an independent party replicate the findings to validate.

I've been out of the loop for a while. Has anyone verified Tom's findings?

Why give up?

Thanks,
Rich

Why give up?

Thanks,
Rich

haha...i think he wants you to reference the thread here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=820285).

Yes, that will appear in later version of DVD, as well as a few more patterns not directly required by software... as well as HD-DVD and NTSC versions.

We just need a bit of time ;) (or people to handle it :D)

--Patrice


Firstly, thanks to all those who have developed this HCFR software for the enthusiast community.

I have been interested in an NTSC solution for the HCFR test patterns since the PAL version did not work on my ~2yr. old Panasonic DVD recorder. I was able to use AVIA, but it was not as slick as the HCFR patterns.

So I tried to convert it with Nero Show Time/Recode, but I assume pilot error on my part since what came out was unusable.

So then I found this:

http://forum.videohelp.com/viewtopic.php?t=221928

I used the IFOedit tool to modify all the IFO/BUP files in the VideoTS folder of the HCFR Test Pattern DVD... And it worked...sort of! The test images were shifted up, but for my LCD TV panel this was fine for the basics. Obviously the geometric patterns are useless, but the grey/color stuff was more than sufficient given the ease of navigation and progression for the HCFR measurements.

So do this:

1) Copy ONLY the .VOB files from the HCFR DVD to a temporary folder on your hard drive (either directly from a burned DVD or from the mounted ISO image).

2) Unzip the edited IFO and BUP files from my attached ZIP file into this temporary folder.

3) Master a new DVD by putting these temp files (original VOBs + edited IFO/BUP) into the new VIDEO_TS image folder.

4) Burn it.

5) Try it.

6) Hope it works.


It worked for me on my DVD player, although not perfectly; enough to benefit the HCFR process. So hopefully this will be useful to others.

I advise you to check the color of the patterns with your PC with Colorcop(free) to ensure there are no errors introduced somehow.

I advise you to check the color of the patterns with your PC with Colorcop(free) to ensure there are no errors introduced somehow.


My understanding from what's been written elsewhere in this thread that the PAL > NTSC difference is in resolution and framerate, not colorspace. This kludge simply forces the DVD player to think it's NTSC, and the result is a mismatch in framerate (reading a 50Hz framerate but expects 60Hz) and resolution (reading 576i but expecting 480i). This is also for my non-scaling DVD player out component. A scaling/HDMI player may do something unexpected. But these are my speculations until someone more knowledgeable chimes in.

Firstly, thanks to all those who have developed this HCFR software for the enthusiast community.

I have been interested in an NTSC solution for the HCFR test patterns since the PAL version did not work on my ~2yr. old Panasonic DVD recorder. I was able to use AVIA, but it was not as slick as the HCFR patterns.

So I tried to convert it with Nero Show Time/Recode, but I assume pilot error on my part since what came out was unusable.

So then I found this:

http://forum.videohelp.com/viewtopic.php?t=221928

I used the IFOedit tool to modify all the IFO/BUP files in the VideoTS folder of the HCFR Test Pattern DVD... And it worked...sort of! The test images were shifted up, but for my LCD TV panel this was fine for the basics. Obviously the geometric patterns are useless, but the grey/color stuff was more than sufficient given the ease of navigation and progression for the HCFR measurements.

So do this:

1) Copy ONLY the .VOB files from the HCFR DVD to a temporary folder on your hard drive (either directly from a burned DVD or from the mounted ISO image).

2) Unzip the edited IFO and BUP files from my attached ZIP file into this temporary folder.

3) Master a new DVD by putting these temp files (original VOBs + edited IFO/BUP) into the new VIDEO_TS image folder.

4) Burn it.

5) Try it.

6) Hope it works.


It worked for me on my DVD player, although not perfectly; enough to benefit the HCFR process. So hopefully this will be useful to others.
Thanks for that, I'll give it a try and report back later.

CFC

Thanks everyone for all the info, I'll use it all the next time I get some free time to run a new set of measures.
I'll hope the results will be better.

I have a question I'd like to ask the people who created HCFR_Colorimetre,

When running greyscale mesures with the GetGrey DVD and 10% grey windows,
the grey patterns don't match the IRE measured.
HCFR measures at IRE's but GetGrey's patterns show % amplitude.
Thats not the same at all!

This probably doesn't affect greyscale measures but gamma measure should suffer.. :(

Are you aware of this?
Perhaps providing the option to change readings to amplitude % instead could be added in the future ?

the terms are different and some think mis-used, but essentially here:
GetGrey-% == HCFR-IRE

:cool:

Hi Rich
No. This freeze-up is completely different. It occurs when the light level changes even at high brightness, say going from 70% to 80%, and even if "Average many reads on dark measurements" is not selected. I am familiar with the delay at low light levels that the above feature introduces as you described, and this is different.

I think it may be a little software bug in EyeOne.dll. In ColorHCFR, we just call API functions, I didn't try to make something very special.

I think you should try as many different versions of EyeOne.dll you can find... one may work fine ;)

Regards
Georges

Hi Rich

I think it may be a little software bug in EyeOne.dll. In ColorHCFR, we just call API functions, I didn't try to make something very special.

I think you should try as many different versions of EyeOne.dll you can find... one may work fine ;)

Regards
Georges

Hi Georges,

Thanks for all the effort you guys have put into this! I don't think it's a dll problem because it works fine with the bundled software (eye-one match). It behaves like a timing and/or handshake problem. Also, have you looked into why D2 crt mode does not work?

>jimwhite

Thanks for clearing it up (somehow..), reading the GetGray help file stated that % amplitude and IRE have different luminance values so I got worried, cause trying to adjust my gamma with HCFRS "IRE" readings wouldnt' be close to reality..

Hey guys,

I have a couple questions, Thanks in advance for any help. I just received my display2 meter, and I would like to know if I have to run the software that came with the meter before I can use HCFR? I think I read, I had to calibrate the internal meter settings first? I can't seem to find it with the software I received. Also where do I take the dark reading at? HCFR asks for a dark reading before I can calibrate my display. Im sorry if Im asking to many questions. Thanks again for any help.

Anyone know the cheapest place to get a Display2 LT?

Hey guys,

I have a couple questions, Thanks in advance for any help. I just received my display2 meter, and I would like to know if I have to run the software that came with the meter before I can use HCFR? I think I read, I had to calibrate the internal meter settings first? I can't seem to find it with the software I received. Also where do I take the dark reading at? HCFR asks for a dark reading before I can calibrate my display. Im sorry if Im asking to many questions. Thanks again for any help.

You have to install the software that came with it to get the dll that HCFR needs, but you don't actually have to run the software. You can also go to the GMB website to download the display2 diagnostics package which will give you a copy of the latest version of the dll. Just put that dll in the HCFR directory and you're good to go.

You'll have to run a "calibration" (dark reading) each time you use HCFR, but it should be good for the entire run of the program (as long as the temperature doesn't change too drastically :-). A dark reading is just HCFR reading what the sensor is currently outputting when it has guaranteed no light input. You can take the reading anywhere that's true.

Anyone know the cheapest place to get a Display2 LT?

Best I was able to find was the ebay store ProDigital2000.

Hi Rich and Zoyd

I'm wondering something about your problems with continuous measuring. Could you tell me what are your PC ? Are they quite slow machines ?

Second, when the problem occur, is it after a significant number of continuous measures ?

I suspect something: while the number of measures grows, the grid containing all measures become longer to refresh. I don't know if the application can hang if measures from the background thread come faster than the time necessary to refresh this grid...

If you can confirm your PCs are not so much powerful, and problems occur when a lot of free measures have already been done, I think it may be a bug in ColorHCFR. And in this case, it would be a great news: if the bug is mine, I can fix it ;)

Thanks
Georges

Hi,

Where is all the discussion on how to use the HCFR probe. I just got one from Dave so I'll like to read up on it as much as I can, thanks.

Hi,

Where is all the discussion on how to use the HCFR probe. I just got one from Dave so I'll like to read up on it as much as I can, thanks.

My poste here is with using the HCFR probe and the DTP-94 for the Trainor
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9964289&&#post9964289

Of course, there is an easier way, just load a already existing calibration file (if their is one for your set) and use that to use your HCFR probe. You wll just select after you have selected the HCFR probe - otherwise you need another probe

Hi Rich and Zoyd

I'm wondering something about your problems with continuous measuring. Could you tell me what are your PC ? Are they quite slow machines ?

Second, when the problem occur, is it after a significant number of continuous measures ?

Thanks
Georges

Thanks for taking a look at this, I do not think it's a PC problem. I'm using a fast laptop and the problem can occur even with the 1st measure in continuous measures. It also happens with any of the measures, not just continuous. I have found that 2 things help but do not eliminate this problem:

1. Uncheck "Check additivity Max error (in %)" (can you explain what this is for?)

2. When doing gray scale measure for instance, when I go from 1 light level to the next if I pause several seconds before hitting the "ok" button it does not freeze as often.


thanks!

Thanks for taking a look at this, I do not think it's a PC problem. I'm using a fast laptop and the problem can occur even with the 1st measure in continuous measures. It also happens with any of the measures, not just continuous. I have found that 2 things help but do not eliminate this problem:

1. Uncheck "Check additivity Max error (in %)" (can you explain what this is for?)

2. When doing gray scale measure for instance, when I go from 1 light level to the next if I pause several seconds before hitting the "ok" button it does not freeze as often.


thanks!


Georges,
My observations are the same as zoyd's. I am using a slow PC though (P3). The measurements can hang even after just a few have been accumulated, so it's not just when many have accumulated. Also, it does not have to be in contunuous meas mode. I see tha problem even on the 10-step grayscale run. I will have several fast measures in a row, and then all of the sudden a large pause (20 secs or so) on one of the levels, then back to fast.

I also use zoyd's step 2 above with moderate success. I have not tried step 1.

*** The problem is in adapting to changing light levels ***

Thanks a million for looking into it further.]
Rich

WANTED !!

HCFR DIY probe calibration file for a Sony G70 CRT Projector.

or NEC XG series ( same tubes in some cases)

I've tried the NEC 6PG file. It works, gets me closer than the Spyder did (thanks Dave :) ).

I don't know if it would make a difference but I would like to give it a try.

Hello Afryia,

I received your PM asking if I had any tips for calibrating the HCFR DIY probe. I thought I’d answer publicly as I see your post here.

I really don’t have any other methods or tips. My usage has been to calibrate a given display to a full-field (or windowed) 100 IRE D65 using a second meter. I then train the HCFR probe off of that full-field 100 IRE D65 white (and the component colors) as outlined on my web page. This will create a new calibration file for that display. I haven’t used any of the more elaborate methods (nor have I needed to) utilizing screen bias offsets etc. but I know others have.

Rich posted his procedure here http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9964289&&#post9964289 and laric made a few comments about that procedure a few posts further down.

I’ll snoop the French forum if I get a chance and advise if I find anything more specific for you. I suspect however, that most of those calibration files would have been derived using the 100IRE D65 method and won’t be any better that what you could derive yourself since you have a S2 and can use that method to set up and train based off that. I do have some direct view CRT cal files that I could send you and my guess is that they wouldn’t be too far off but likely no better that the NEC-P6.

Edit-

I found this one on the HCFR site. Even though it’s named Spyder2.thc it was in a post about results from a Sony G70. My guess is that it’s for a HCFR probe for a G70 and the reference meter was a Spyder2. Just a guess however as I didn’t translate it or try it. It does seem that a .thc file named Spyder2 is kinda mis-named. AFAIK, The Spyder2 doen’t need or use a .thc file.


Dave

Dave,

Doesn't the second meter need to be accurate? My Spyder is off, way off IMO.

I'll give that attachment a try.

Thanks.

Anthony

Hi HCFR Team,

First I'd just like to say a big Thank You for the great software and hardware you guys have come out with, very much appreciated. I used it for the first time yesterday on my Zenith 1200X(Barco Cine8 Onyx) and I must say it has made a huge improvement getting the grayscale/colourtemp set properly. My Minolta 2150 never got it looking this good.

Using the continuos mode sure makes it easy to set it up from top to bottom of the ire scale. I used the NEC 6PG as a reference selection but I think it has a slight red push now so I guess I'll be looking for another ref to compare it with too. I also used your calibration disc for the grayscales, very nice too, I assume these scales have no colour in them like Avia or DVE.

And thanks to Dave for selling me one of his HCFR probes which he made only a few of, works like a charm as far as I can tell. I set it about 6" away from my screen but pointing at the screen so I could take into account any effects the screen might have on the grayscale. I managed to get readings down to 15ire before they dropped off so I figure that's pretty damn good.

Afryia, if you get a solid ref file for the G70 I'd be interested in it too.

One day I may have to phone up Michael Chin again and maybe see if I can get the HCFR probe matched to one of his professional calibration probes, he only lives about 5 minutes from me.

Hi Zoyd
I have found that 2 things help but do not eliminate this problem:

1. Uncheck "Check additivity Max error (in %)" (can you explain what this is for?)

2. When doing gray scale measure for instance, when I go from 1 light level to the next if I pause several seconds before hitting the "ok" button it does not freeze as often.

The first point is totally useless: it's only a final checking when building calibration files using HCFR probe, to refuse the calibration file when additivity is out of bounds.

The second point is more interesting. I would suggest to set a value in the Dynamic Iris Latency time (in preferences). Put a value around 2000 to 5000, to let your projector stabilize before starting measuring. Rich, it may be good for you too ;)

Regards
Georges

Dave,

Doesn't the second meter need to be accurate? My Spyder is off, way off IMO.

I'll give that attachment a try.

Thanks.

Anthony

Well I believe - and I can be off my rocker here - if the Spyder is accurate at 100IRE, then thats all you need -

Someone here let me know if I am wrong in this thought :confused:

Hi Zoyd

The first point is totally useless: it's only a final checking when building calibration files using HCFR probe, to refuse the calibration file when additivity is out of bounds.

The second point is more interesting. I would suggest to set a value in the Dynamic Iris Latency time (in preferences). Put a value around 2000 to 5000, to let your projector stabilize before starting measuring. Rich, it may be good for you too ;)

Regards
Georges

ok, scratch the 1st point. I don't have a projector with dynamic iris (my display is a plasma), but I tried the latency setting and it helped for low IRE patterns in the sense that instead of waiting to put up the next patch I could put it up right away and the pause occured in software. But at higher IRE, say 75% and above there is a real problem. Since the D2 adjusts it integration time automatically it must be primarily a problem at short integration times (high light level) and the software is not syncing properly to changes in the faster read-out rate. Note that the software doesn't report "no data from sensor" when this happens, it just doesn't update the measures window.

Hi Zoyd

The first point is totally useless: it's only a final checking when building calibration files using HCFR probe, to refuse the calibration file when additivity is out of bounds.

The second point is more interesting. I would suggest to set a value in the Dynamic Iris Latency time (in preferences). Put a value around 2000 to 5000, to let your projector stabilize before starting measuring. Rich, it may be good for you too ;)

Regards
Georges

Georges,
I'm calibrating a plasma - no dynamic iris.

This brings up an important point. Are all those experiencing the freeze-up problem using a D2 on plasma? I heard something like this.

Zoyd,
What is your setup?

Thanks

Rich

Georges,
I'm calibrating a plasma - no dynamic iris.

This brings up an important point. Are all those experiencing the freeze-up problem using a D2 on plasma? I heard something like this.

Zoyd,
What is your setup?

Thanks

Rich

getgray->upscaling dvd player->plasma. I don't think it's the probe/plasma combo because I never see this when using the eye-one match software on the same pc.

getgray->upscaling dvd player->plasma. I don't think it's the probe/plasma combo because I never see this when using the eye-one match software on the same pc.

Zoyd,
I think this may be a significant clue. Every freeze-up complaint I've heard so far has been from someone using HCFR + D2 + plasma. Now you too are in this group.

So when you use the eye-one match SW on the same D2 + plasma you do not have any issues?

If this is the case, how could it be anything other than a bug in HCFR?

Rich

So when you use the eye-one match SW on the same D2 + plasma you do not have any issues?
I just reran it to confirm. Eye-one match runs through many test patterns of various content (grey scale and color) flawlessly in either CRT or LCD mode when calibrating my pc's VGA out to the plasma.

Mine is freezing too.. Plasma

Mine is freezing too.. Plasma


Must be a plasma issue, time to buy LCD :) :D

The D2 freezing problem definitely seems to be a connection with Plasma displays, at least when not using it's own program.

Here's a quote from TomHuffman (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9645333&&#post9645333) using the D2 on a Plasma with Calman.


"I noticed when taking readings with the Display 2 that it would take a long time to accept the value and prompt me to move on as if it were having trouble locking on".

The D2 freezing problem definitely seems to be a connection with Plasma displays, at least when not using it's own program.

Here's a quote from TomHuffman (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9645333&&#post9645333) using the D2 on a Plasma with Calman.


Ok. So it is conclusive. The problem is D2 + Plasma + (HCFR or Calman).

This means both Calman and HCFR have the same problem accessing the D2 probe, but the D2's own SW (eye-one match) does not have this problem. To a SW engineer, this is good news: a consistent and repeatable experiment.

So, the challenge to SW developers at Calman and HCFR is to observe how the eye-one SW utilizes the D2 without issue, determine what the difference is in their own product, and see who can figure out a way to fix it.

Then it would be fair to claim 100% D2 support.

I spoke too soon :o and amended my post above, after further testing with eye-one match I have found problems with it in LCD mode that look just like the problem both CALman and HCFR are having, long pauses at high IRE when the light level is changing. I can't test the D2 in CRT mode with HCFR because it doesn't work. Does the D2-CRT mode work in CALman and if it does can anyone confirm smoother operation in CRT-mode?

From this information it now appears that the problem is related to the difference between LCD and CRT mode (CRT mode does some sort of scan refresh sync) and the auto-ranging function of the probe, not in the software. Note that the spyder2 which has both modes does not have this problem and it has a fixed integration time.

.. I can't test the D2 in CRT mode with HCFR because it doesn't work. I think the D2 has a Debug option in HCFR's Sensor settings. Have you tried that in either LCD or CRT mode? It should write or append to the file c:\program files\Colorimeter_HCFR\decoder.log. Not sure it will tell you anything, but it might at least show an initialization or refresh rate sync error.

Well I believe - and I can be off my rocker here - if the Spyder is accurate at 100IRE, then thats all you need -

Someone here let me know if I am wrong in this thought :confused:

Rich,

That makes sense to me.

The problem is my RGB readings with the Spyder indicates my Red is running at 175%. If I adjust accordingly the grey is very blue/green visually obvious.

I get this bias at all IRE. DVE and the color filters indicate color is off with the Spyder.

With HFCR probe the grey scale looked good. Now if I can find a Sony G70 calibration file I'd be interested how much better the setup could get.

I spoke too soon :o and amended my post above, after further testing with eye-one match I have found problems with it in LCD mode that look just like the problem both CALman and HCFR are having, long pauses at high IRE when the light level is changing. I can't test the D2 in CRT mode with HCFR because it doesn't work. Does the D2-CRT mode work in CALman and if it does can anyone confirm smoother operation in CRT-mode?

From this information it now appears that the problem is related to the difference between LCD and CRT mode (CRT mode does some sort of scan refresh sync) and the auto-ranging function of the probe, not in the software. Note that the spyder2 which has both modes does not have this problem and it has a fixed integration time.

I always run the HCFR and D2 in LCD mode for my plasma. THis is what HCFR recommended. I heard CRT ia only for real CRT's with scan lines. Is this not correct?

I always run the HCFR and D2 in LCD mode for my plasma. THis is what HCFR recommended. I heard CRT ia only for real CRT's with scan lines. Is this not correct?

D2 CRT mode does not work in HFCR so you have no choice at the moment. We're trying to narrow down the problem of why the D2 locks up when viewing a plasma in LCD mode.

Does the D2-CRT mode work in CALman
Yes. This was a straightforward implementation in the SDK. Also, supporting the diffuser that is included with both the D2 and the LT was also in the SDK, and we also have that implemented as well. To be truthful, though, you can get a higher quality diffuser for about $20 shipped from Edmund Optics.

I have said this explicitly before, but let me say it again. The calibration tables in all of the universal Spyders which we have tested have the same internal calibration (more than a dozen and counting). None of the D2s/LTs we have tested do. Think through manufacturing variances, and then perhaps you might want to re-think NOT including a real reference in your test. I have posted my own findings over in our forum, and I am happy to post the raw data there, as well (I did provide the results of the paired t-test against the xy data, for those with a statistical inclination). The net of it all was that using a constant stimulus test, an IR cut filter without the benefit of meter training did improve the accuracy of the D2 with a plasma.

If folks have questions about our product, you know where to find us.

Bill

By the way, it is kind of hard to stay out of this thread when my colleagues' and my own integrity keep being challenged.

Yes the D2 works differently in LCD mode from CRT mode, it's not just not a different calibration table it's much more. I will have a look and see if I can replicate it with CalMAN 2.1

Hi Zoyd
I can't test the D2 in CRT mode with HCFR because it doesn't work.
What exactly do you mean ? Are you sure using the last release ? The one which calibrates the D2 in CRT mode displaying a white screen ?

I think I missed some bug report in this thread, because I don't know anything about that... :confused:

Regards
Georges

Hi Zoyd

What exactly do you mean ? Are you sure using the last release ? The one which calibrates the D2 in CRT mode displaying a white screen ?

I think I missed some bug report in this thread, because I don't know anything about that... :confused:

Regards
Georges

I sent you and Patrice a PM about it last week. D2-CRT mode+plasma = "Can't sync to refresh rate", I'm using the latest version 1.22. I'll go back and try it again in debug mode.

Yes. This was a straightforward implementation in the SDK. Also, supporting the diffuser that is included with both the D2 and the LT was also in the SDK, and we also have that implemented as well. To be truthful, though, you can get a higher quality diffuser for about $20 shipped from Edmund Optics.

I have said this explicitly before, but let me say it again. The calibration tables in all of the universal Spyders which we have tested have the same internal calibration (more than a dozen and counting). None of the D2s/LTs we have tested do. Think through manufacturing variances, and then perhaps you might want to re-think NOT including a real reference in your test. I have posted my own findings over in our forum, and I am happy to post the raw data there, as well (I did provide the results of the paired t-test against the xy data, for those with a statistical inclination). The net of it all was that using a constant stimulus test, an IR cut filter without the benefit of meter training did improve the accuracy of the D2 with a plasma.

If folks have questions about our product, you know where to find us.

Bill

By the way, it is kind of hard to stay out of this thread when my colleagues' and my own integrity keep being challenged.

Bill,
There is no reason to stay out of this thread. Your comments are very valuable. I, for one, am just trying to gain information by comparing these products. If I determine that Calman can perform better than HCFR I will probably buy it. The money is not that big a deal compared to accuracy and functionality. The only way to determine this, without actually owning it, is to ask questions and discuss.

This latest D2+plasma issue is important to me. Please provide a link to the testing you mentioned. I'd like to read this.

THanks,
Rich

This latest D2+plasma issue is important to me. Please provide a link to the testing you mentioned. I'd like to read this.

Rich - The write-up can be found in our D2/LT FAQ thread (at the end), here:
http://www.datapopuli.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=352

Registration (free) is required.

Bill

I sent you and Patrice a PM about it last week. D2-CRT mode+plasma = "Can't sync to refresh rate", I'm using the latest version 1.22. I'll go back and try it again in debug mode.
Ok, now I understand ;) Excuse me, I read your PM but I didn't realize which was the link.

Well, in CRT mode, the D2 try to synchronize on monitor refresh rate. This error message means the probe cannot find a peak in luminance to sync on. IMHO, it means CRT mode cannot be used with plasma display.

Regards
Georges

Rich - The write-up can be found in our D2/LT FAQ thread (at the end), here:
http://www.datapopuli.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=352

Registration (free) is required.

Bill

Thanks Bill. I just read the thread and plotted the data. Looks like the application if the IR filter moved the D2 response along a line almost directly away from blue (i.e., along an imaginary line from blue primary towards D65). Is this your interptetation as well? I thought it would have moved away from red, but perhaps I do not understand correctly. In all three cases the color temp seems to be around D7500 +-, so I assume the display was set on a "cool" setting. Can you confirm?

Thanks,
Rich

Ok, now I understand ;) Excuse me, I read your PM but I didn't realize which was the link.

Well, in CRT mode, the D2 try to synchronize on monitor refresh rate. This error message means the probe cannot find a peak in luminance to sync on. IMHO, it means CRT mode cannot be used with plasma display.

Regards
Georges

This was also my understanding, but it could have been because you guys at HCFR told me this previously :-)

We will never detect a "refresh rate" sync on a plasma display will we?

If so, using CRT mode is out of the question.

But it is LCD mode that is freezing. Is LCD mode looking for some kind of sync too?

Thanks Bill. I just read the thread and plotted the data. Looks like the application if the IR filter moved the D2 response along a line almost directly away from blue (i.e., along an imaginary line from blue primary towards D65). Is this your interptetation as well? I thought it would have moved away from red, but perhaps I do not understand correctly. In all three cases the color temp seems to be around D7500 +-, so I assume the display was set on a "cool" setting. Can you confirm?

Thanks,
Rich
Rich - Good question, and one I would prefer to handle in our forums (as I said, I do try to stay out of this thread). Yes, I was somewhat surprised by the effect. However, I had to impose upon a fellow forum member to get even that much (my "half hour" measurement session took more than 2 hours...), so unless I can convince The Boss to let me add a plasma to my "lab", I am hamstrung in pursuing this too much further.

I would also be remiss in not reminding folks that this type of research costs money, so you should be glad that our customers have funded this so far. ;) (I spent more than $200 on IR Cut filters for this test...if it were just for me, I would quickly get bored with this.)

Bill

Rich - Good question, and one I would prefer to handle in our forums (as I said, I do try to stay out of this thread). Yes, I was somewhat surprised by the effect. However, I had to impose upon a fellow forum member to get even that much (my "half hour" measurement session took more than 2 hours...), so unless I can convince The Boss to let me add a plasma to my "lab", I am hamstrung in pursuing this too much further.

I would also be remiss in not reminding folks that this type of research costs money, so you should be glad that our customers have funded this so far. ;) (I spent more than $200 on IR Cut filters for this test...if it were just for me, I would quickly get bored with this.)

Bill

Thanks Bill. If I can help in any way by doing tests on my plasma with my D2 please let me know. I'd be glad to help without charge.

Rich

Is LCD mode looking for some kind of sync too?

No not looking for a sync. In CRT mode it is framed based that's why the sync is important it needs to know how many frames to read for. In LCD mode it's exposure based. In either mode it will auto range and for CRT mode if the light level is to low it will switch to exposure based because it won't detect the sync pulses. I have spent a fair amount of time getting to know the Display2 at a very low level, including the whole range of older Sequal Imaged based meters.

To help me out what is the fastest way to reproduce, just change the light level up/down while it's reading or something else. About how long does it hang up for and in the end did you get a valid reading.

No not looking for a sync. In CRT mode it is framed based that's why the sync is important it needs to know how many frames to read for. In LCD mode it's exposure based. In either mode it will auto range and for CRT mode if the light level is to low it will switch to exposure based because it won't detect the sync pulses. I have spent a fair amount of time getting to know the Display2 at a very low level, including the whole range of older Sequal Imaged based meters.

To help me out what is the fastest way to reproduce, just change the light level up/down while it's reading or something else. About how long does it hang up for and in the end did you get a valid reading.

Derek,
The problem is sporadic. Here is a good way to reproduce it after a while.

D2 in LCD mode on plasma.

(1) Put up a 40% pattern and start taking continuous measurements (in HCFR it is about 1 meas per second. If you don't have a continuous meas mode just do several measurements in a row, then change the light level, during one of the measurements seems most nasty I would imagine as far as autoranging goes).

(2) While measurements are gong on change to a 60% pattern.

(3) Stay there for a while and collect a few measurements then go back to step 1.

Eventually one of the measurements will freeze. After about 20 seconds or so the measurements will resume and may be close to every 1 second again and accurate. The measurement taken during the screen level change is of course not accurate.

Sometimes the freeze never ends and the SW locks up completely and the PC needs to be power cycled to get out of this condition, but this is not very frequent.

Let me know if you are able to reproduce or need more details.

Thanks,
Rich

Let me know if you are able to reproduce or need more details.


Thanks for the info. I am able to reproduce the symptoms. Now to figure out why :)

Thanks for the info. I am able to reproduce the symptoms. Now to figure out why :)


Great news Derek!
Keep us posted.

Rich

Great news Derek!
Keep us posted.

Rich
I'll give you three guesses, and the first two don't count, about where it gets posted... ;)

I'll give you three guesses, and the first two don't count, about where it gets posted... ;)

OK. I get it. I will go read it in the Calman forum.

This means both Calman and HCFR have the same problem accessing the D2 probe, but the D2's own SW (eye-one match) does not have this problem. To a SW engineer, this is good news: a consistent and repeatable experiment.

I can also reproduce this problem with i1Match or i1Diagnostics just a bit harder to do.

I can also reproduce this problem with i1Match or i1Diagnostics just a bit harder to do.

Using the same steps I outlined earlier, or something new?

Similar steps. I use a pattern generator so I can change the patterns very quickly once the D2 has started it's reading. You have a very small window less than 1 second.

Similar steps. I use a pattern generator so I can change the patterns very quickly once the D2 has started it's reading. You have a very small window less than 1 second.

Does the change have to be during a reading to cause the freeze, or can it be between readings?

Does the change have to be during a reading to cause the freeze, or can it be between readings?

It has to be changed once the reading has started but is still going on. So the window to cause it is very small.

Can't be done on EU model.

But don't worry I've gotten used to it, and as I said I can work around it.
Dynamic or Vivid as it's called in the US models only differs from the other modes in brightness and in cut, drive values so it's no big deal. Also If i mess it up it's no loss ;)
And as I said I always set brightness and all other user setting back again before measuring.

(Sorry I meant VGA not RGB input in previous post ( edited )

I have the same one (PV4260EH). No gamma controls etc. I have been trying to calibrate the other inputs (HDMI, RGB Scart, TV tuner). What I noticed is that each input has its own memory in service menu (rgb drives and cutoffs). For instance if I want to play with HDMI1 settings i have to be in HDMI1 before i enter service menu. Can this be done with the VGA input? I only used it once to see if works (TV is still young) and i noticed there are some advanced controls not available in any other input such as Low Red / High Red which remind me of Red cutoff/Red drive.

This may mean that you can calibrate the VGA input without need to go in service menu. Process is tedious as you describe.

Also, in service menu there are some gray patterns. I dont have access to the service manual and dont know what they represent but they are there for calibration. It is also helpful to make some realtime measurements with HFCR, using its "play" button and look at the numbers, not only the graphs. A few RGB points difference looks like a lot on the plasma sometimes.

I checked your calibration results. I have about one third the luminance on mine (70 vs ~200 at IRE100) but i havent made a chc file with vga input yet to send you for comparison.

Any other remarks welcome since I am also working a bit in the dark here. This is a very widespread TV set and others should be tinkering with it as well. Please input!

>eagleone

Hi ! and thanks for your interest.

Yes you can calibrate it without going into the SM (VGA inut).
Those controls do the same thing.
But you get a little bit less precision, and also you lack the cut/drive for green.

And if you're trying to do it that way you get the OSD on the screen at the same time as you are doing the greyscale measure.
And by having it on the screen the readings change a bit! (OSD influences levels)
So remember to wait for it to dissapear before getting a reading.

Regarding the realtime measures, yes I've been doing those lately with much better result!

I really don't know how to lower the luminance without lowering all cuts/drives values.
I already calibrated contrast/brightness before and after all SM adjustments.

Thanks for your input!

This set is horrible to calibrate, who came up with this crazy process to access the SM on the consumer model!

As a last resort you could try modifying the output from your HTPC to get the desired result on the TV (ie VGA card). I have done it with a Nvidia card using RGB curves mode in the advanced settings for color correction to feed a CRT monitor. HFCR is very happy with that.

Patrice, Georges or anybody else,
Can you please tell us what the values of x, y and Y are for the primary and secondary colours when using Rec.601 and Rec.709. I need them to try checking/adjusting the lightness adjustments (in addition to saturation/tint adjustments) of my pj (Optoma HD7100)
Thank you.

Patrice, Georges or anybody else,
Can you please tell us what the values of x, y and Y are for the primary and secondary colours when using Rec.601 and Rec.709. I need them to try checking/adjusting the lightness adjustments (in addition to saturation/tint adjustments) of my pj (Optoma HD7100)
Thank you.

See post #9 of this thread
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=815987

I have posted my own findings over in our forum, and I am happy to post the raw data there, as well (I did provide the results of the paired t-test against the xy data, for those with a statistical inclination). The net of it all was that using a constant stimulus test, an IR cut filter without the benefit of meter training did improve the accuracy of the D2 with a plasma.

Thanks for the pointer to that data, I've taken a look at it and in my opinion demonstrates two things:

1. The displayLT has excellent precision, you showed that the standard deviations in the various measurements was less than 0.001 x,y and this agrees with the vendor's claim of short-term(peak-to-peak) repeatibility of +/- 0.001 x,y

2. Both measurements of accuracy (filter vs. nofilter with reference to the i1pro) were within the vendor's claim of +/- 0.004 x,y so no claim of improved accuracy can be made using this data.

Also, as Bill alludes to in his analysis, the measured difference in response filter vs. no filter corresponds to approximately 1 deltaE which is not perceptible.

I would caution anyone to make sure that if you alter the hardware the vendor provides that you have enough data to justify the added expense. In my experience there is no such thing as a quick fix when it comes to radiometry and photometry.

Thanks for the pointer to that data, I've taken a look at it and in my opinion demonstrates two things:

1. The displayLT has excellent precision, you showed that the standard deviations in the various measurements was less than 0.001 x,y and this agrees with the vendor's claim of short-term(peak-to-peak) repeatibility of +/- 0.001 x,y

2. Both measurements of accuracy (filter vs. nofilter with reference to the i1pro) were within the vendor's claim of +/- 0.004 x,y so no claim of improved accuracy can be made using this data.

Also, as Bill alludes to in his analysis, the measured difference in response filter vs. no filter corresponds to approximately 1 deltaE which is not perceptible.

I would caution anyone to make sure that if you alter the hardware the vendor provides that you have enough data to justify the added expense. In my experience there is no such thing as a quick fix when it comes to radiometry and photometry.


To try to get a feel for how significant this error is I put the data into the HCFR program to plot it as shown below. I would appreciate if someone could rerun this and verify the results and confirm that I am using the tool correctly. I used three IRE bins for the three data points captured as follows. The actual IRE here is meaningless - just a placeholder for the data.

IRE70 = D2 with filter
IRE80 = D2 without filter
IRE90 = i1Pro

The color temp for the reference i1pro is 7526K.

The CIE plots show three overlapping circles that represent the 3 data points. The one in the center of this group is the i1pro, the lower one is D2 WOF and the upper is D2 WF. The two concentric blue rings indicate a deltaE of 3 and 10. The cross dashed lines indicate D65 on the line of grays. The second CIE plot is a zoomed in version of this.

In the RGB_deltaE plot I set the reference white to D75 (which is closest to the i1pro). In this plot you can see the relative contributions of R, G, B and the deltaE of each sample (purple line) relative to D75 as follows.

deltaE
1.3 D2 with filter
3.0 D2 without filter
0.6 i1Pro

So using the i1pro as the reference standard it looks like the deltaE of the D2 without the filter may be around 2 (south of reference), and with the filter somewhere around 1 (northeast of reference). Maybe someone else can calculate this more exactly using equations.

Rich

deltaE
1.3 D2 with filter
3.0 D2 without filter
0.6 i1Pro
Rich

Rich,

This is what I saw also so the difference between filter vs nofilter is < 2. My point is that both of these numbers is less than the quoted accuracy of the meter so that if you were to measure another meter you might see a completely different behavior within that +/- 0.004 spec. The key thing to take away from my post is that you can demonstrate precision with one meter but to demonstrate accuracy it takes a data set which contains many meters (that is how the vendor does the measurement of relative accuracy in the first place).

1. The displayLT has excellent precision, you showed that the standard deviations in the various measurements was less than 0.001 x,y and this agrees with the vendor's claim of short-term(peak-to-peak) repeatibility of +/- 0.001 x,y

2. Both measurements of accuracy (filter vs. nofilter with reference to the i1pro) were within the vendor's claim of +/- 0.004 x,y so no claim of improved accuracy can be made using this data.
That data, no. The data in my spreadsheet? Yes. One can very easily construct a paired t-test to rule out whether the two sets of measurements are the same using the raw data. If you are eyeballing a confidence interval, don't forget that you are looking at standard errors, not standard deviations, when you look at those y values again.

Also, as Bill alludes to in his analysis, the measured difference in response filter vs. no filter corresponds to approximately 1 deltaE which is not perceptible.

I would caution anyone to make sure that if you alter the hardware the vendor provides that you have enough data to justify the added expense. In my experience there is no such thing as a quick fix when it comes to radiometry and photometry.

Since you are persisting with this, exactly how are you calculating dE*, when you do not have the luminance data? You are also now saying not to alter the vendor's hardware, but your original claim of accuracy with the S2 and D2 had you going against the manufacturer's measurement methodology? I am horribly confused now about what you are trying to prove.

I'm not trying to be a jerk, but you have called my team's findings into question, and yet methodologically, your counterpoints do not pass the sniff test. So that we are clear, I am NOT a professional color scientist. What I am, though, is someone who spends a lot of time around numbers. If you want to talk about the application of risk models to consumer promotions, or elasticity modeling using hedonic regression, or even the application of confirmatory factor analysis to buyer behavior models (yes, I occasionally use "affect" as a noun), then I'm your guy.

Your postings make me think that somewhere we have offended you, and if so, for that, I am sorry. I would far rather work with you than against you, though, so if you have real questions or want to collaborate, then great! I spend most of my free time working with our customers, and I'm happy to provide some analytical backing to someone who can get out and do some measurements that my day job (see above) and my travel schedule just doesn't allow me to do.

Here are some obvious next steps to do:
1) Go out and buy half a dozen, or so, DisplayLTs and/or Display2s. Run them through a similar battery of tests vs. a real, or even pretend, reference. Get both longitudinal and lattitudinal data where you can see real instrument-to-instrument variation and the effects of filtration on all of them. Having a funding source to do this sort of testing kind of helps.

2) Go for a cheaper variation of the above. My tests were done with one plasma model using the 80 IRE window pattern. Most of Tom Huffman's observed deviation seemed to be at the low end. Thus, one should repeat my 80IRE test, but do so at 10 - 20 IRE (or 10% - 20% stim, depending upon what test disc you have available).

3) Repeat my 80IRE test, but do so with a broad cross-section of plasma TVs (different brands, different models/years). My findings are limited to one meter and one TV.

There are several others that can be done, as well. As soon as I can break free from work and home commitments (and supporting our users), I am going to be working with a professional calibrator to work through variations of some of these.

This really will be my/our last word on this until we have something new to say, and it won't be here.

Bill

So using the i1pro as the reference standard it looks like the deltaE of the D2 without the filter may be around 2 (south of reference), and with the filter somewhere around 1 (northeast of reference). Maybe someone else can calculate this more exactly using equations.
Rich - You may want to look at delta u'v', rather than dE. As I've posted before, dE has a significant contribution from Luminance (L*), and there are general guidelines on the visibility of color error using Delta u'v'. Sorry, but I don't have time to pull out an authoritative link to give you a guideline as to what JND is using Delta u'v'.

Bill

(I made an exception to the above, since Rich's post came in while I was posting the above)

That data, no. The data in my spreadsheet? Yes. One can very easily construct a paired t-test to rule out whether the two sets of measurements are the same using the raw data. If you are eyeballing a confidence interval, don't forget that you are looking at standard errors, not standard deviations, when you look at those y values again.
Bill

I don't dispute you successfully showed a statistically significant difference between the two data sets. Yes, the filter had an effect. However, both data sets are already within the absolute uncertainty specified for the meter so the conclusion is indeterminate.

A combination of your recommended test sets #1 and #3 would allow you to answer the question of whether adding a filter will improve on the vendors' stated accuracy.

Rich - You may want to look at delta u'v', rather than dE. As I've posted before, dE has a significant contribution from Luminance (L*), and there are general guidelines on the visibility of color error using Delta u'v'. Sorry, but I don't have time to pull out an authoritative link to give you a guideline as to what JND is using Delta u'v'.

Bill

(I made an exception to the above, since Rich's post came in while I was posting the above)

Why are folks getting so upset over this? This seems like good scientific investigation amongst a mixture of hobbists and pros, and actually *great * discussion. This is the kind of stuff forums like this are really made for, sharing and discussing results with the technical community. We can all learn from this.

Rich

Why are folks getting so upset over this? This seems like good scientific investigation amongst a mixture of hobbists and pros, and actually *great * discussion. This is the kind of stuff forums like this are really made for, sharing and discussing results with the technical community. We can all learn from this.

Rich

*shrug* I'm certainly not upset in the least. Btw, if you want to calculate deltaE outside of HCFR, use Bruce Lindbloom's color java calculators. You have to assume a luminance value as I'm sure you noticed but just to get an idea of the magnitudes I assumed both constant luminances at 80 cd/m^2 and a 5% color neutral cut with the filter. That's another thing I'm suspicious of with the use of this filter, if you look at the curve in the edmunds catalog it is certainly not color neutral, there is a few percent dip right in the middle of the green channel. jdbimmer ran a similar test using a dtp-94 and a better filter and found differences even smaller than what calman is reporting.

..I'm suspicious of with the use of this filter, if you look at the curve in the edmunds catalog it is certainly not color neutral, there is a few percent dip right in the middle of the green channel. jdbimmer ran a similar test using a dtp-94 and a better filter and found differences even smaller than what calman is reporting..

With the DTP94 vs. Baader/DTP94 combo, the slight differences were consistent, and I attributed that to the slighly uneven response of the filter (which specs out a bit flatter than the Edmunds filter) Baader Spec (http://www.baader-planetarium.de/download/uvir-Cut_e.pdf) or Baader Spec2 (http://www.baader-planetarium.de/zubehoer/okularseitiges_zubeh/info_farbfilter/infoseite-uvir.htm#englisch). Contrary to the results of the S2-CRT Mode with the Baader, the DTP94 with IR filter reads Red a bit higher, possibly because of the uneven filter response:
x y Y
IRE80 No filter: .327 .332 75.60
IRE80 w/Baader: .330 .333 73.63

As for Bill, we really do appreciate your work, and I am not bashing your results, rather I am just offering some additional information. If it's bad info, let me know, I won't take it personally.

The thing that is throwing me for a loop in this discussion is the D2/i1Pro graphs that TomHuffman posted. They seem to be much more out of line than Bill's results (even considering that we don't have Tom's xyY values).
If you look closer the difference is more profound than that. At 100 IRE

Display 2
R 114%
G 97%
B 89%

i1Pro
R 106%
G 100%
B 93%

Could it be that Tom has a bum D2 (or conversely, that Bill has a good one)?

-JD

With the DTP94 vs. Baader/DTP94 combo, the slight differences were consistent, and I attributed that to the slighly uneven response of the filter (which specs out a bit flatter than the Edmunds filter) Baader Spec (http://www.baader-planetarium.de/download/uvir-Cut_e.pdf) or Baader Spec2 (http://www.baader-planetarium.de/zubehoer/okularseitiges_zubeh/info_farbfilter/infoseite-uvir.htm#englisch). Contrary to the results of the S2-CRT Mode with the Baader, the DTP94 with IR filter reads Red a bit higher, possibly because of the uneven filter response:
x y Y
IRE80 No filter: .327 .332 75.60
IRE80 w/Baader: .330 .333 73.63

As for Bill, we really do appreciate your work, and I am not bashing your results, rather I am just offering some additional information. If it's bad info, let me know, I won't take it personally.

The thing that is throwing me for a loop in this discussion is the D2/i1Pro graphs that TomHuffman posted. They seem to be much more out of line than Bill's results (even considering that we don't have Tom's xyY values).


Could it be that Tom has a bum D2 (or conversely, that Bill has a good one)?

-JD

Possibly. If you look at the RBG plot I posted you can see that the colors that Derek measured are much closer between the i1pro and D2 than in Tom's test.

Tom: Did you try more than one D2? I don't recall.

RIch