In a recent interview (I don't have a specific link, have just been reading this all over other message boards), - CEO of Sony Computer Entertainment, Kaz Hirai, adamantly confirmed that the PS3 would not upscale SD DVDs at all. I say "adamantly" because interviewers have said that he was "very, very clear" on this point.

He is also quoted as saying that old PS1 and PS2 games will "run in their original form". It hasn't yet been cleared up as to what exactly he meant by this but most have taken this to mean that the system will not upscale, anti-alias or do much else to PS1 or PS2 games either.

The upscaling of both was largely expected by everyone as far as I've read.

The Xbox 360, on the other hand, I know upscales SD DVDs already through it's standard drive and the VGA port. It upscales rather well too. Not sure if it can also upscale through component or if the HD DVD add on will allow it to be done through component or whatever but maybe someone can help clear that part up.

Alright, that is all. Sorry, I don't have a specific link to a news-source - too lazy to dig one up but the story is probably speading now so you may be able to find one yourself.

Interesting news. I was very disappointed when the PS2 was released and it played back PS1 games in theit "origional form". Especially when you compared it with Bleemcast on the PS3 which did a much better job with less "powerfull" hardware.

The no upscalling of SD DVD over HDMI is a bit of a disappointment, but presuming your TV has a decent internal scaller, it shouldn't make much difference. Also, any news if the PS3 will even output SD DVD as progressive frames?

The info is all over sites like IGN...Sony threw a big pre-launch PS3 press event in San Francisco yesterday. There are detailed run-downs on the various functions of the PS3--a lot of it was very tasty, the lack of DVD upscaling was a bit of a letdown, though.

Shane,

Come on, it's more than just a bit of a let down. Sony had been touting an all in one media hub, championed BR playback yet SD DVD's which encompass the mass market and consumer collection is pretty much disregarded. SD DVD's on a good upscaler are a big difference to just running them at 480, we all know that. I for one, find this a major letdown. The only reason I can see them doing this is to make the standalone players more appealing and clearly, they will be now.

The wording in the reports seemed to suggest other features were in-line for future upgrading/addition...DVD and PS2/1 game upscaling/enhancement are suggested to be no different. You could see upscaling in future system updates. They may have simply prioritized the Blu-ray playback for now. This system is going to go through a LOT of system updates...i.e., like the PSP, it's built with the understanding of regular online updating.

As for big vs. small letdown, I would say that is sort of a personal matter. I have all my DVD needs taken care of, as well as an outboard scaler. I'm just keen on the games, the blu-ray player and the (LocationFree-style) PSP media streaming/interoperability...which all look to be coming along swimmingly.

I'm all for seeing dvd upscaling (so this is dissapointing to hear), but I can't ignore that this is going to be one of those "conflict of interest" things that Sony is just not going to do right with. Being a BR player, they will want every thing in their favor to distinguish the hd video look from dvd video look (though it seems, they shouldn't need to do this). So they have no interest in making dvd playback look any better than stock (let alone doing any fancy upscaling) and every interest in making it come out that BR looks far better. This is quite a bit of irony considering the computational resources in a PS3 that could be brought to bear for some really fancy upscaling in software. They could do stuff that just wouldn't be practical on even their own very best hdtv line. Maybe they could have even done that frame rate scaling trick as an optional software mode? The possibilities could have been staggering. It's too bad they are in a position, such that they do not capitalize on it.

Those are very, very interesting points. You may be onto something there. I, too, can't see any reason other than choice/priorities on Sony's part for this feature not being included. It is still possible that they just had to put a pecking order on development/programming resources going into launch and we'll see it yet...but who knows.

Perhaps, there is a grain of hope if this gets/can be done via some opensource avenue.

Upscaling (like the 1080i/p issue) is subject to whether the player or your display have the better scaler.

I always try both, the results often surprise you.

If a DVD player puts out a good 480i/p signal, very often the display will do the rest very effectively.

"This is great news for Blu-ray" :D

Very true, rlsmith! It's just like the laserdisc player days where it could go either way as to whether you configure player or display to do the chroma separation for the best picture.

It's just difficult to ignore that Sony is passing on a huge diamond in the rough by passing on a software implementation that uses Cell in the PS3. ;)

That's exactly the type of pushy policy Blu-ray has towards the consumer. BUY DISCS! BUY DISCS!!!

Also, this is an example of the un-friendly attitude Blu-ray has towards standard DVD. THROW THEM AWAY AND BUY BR!!! THROW THEM AWAY AND BUY BR!!!!!

The upscaling is a nice gesture that show the consumer that he/she can keep their DVD collections and watch them in a near-HD image. It costs nothing and it does wonders for the consumer with lots of films. By NOT upscaling standard DVDs, Sony is letting us see the respect it has for the consumer.

I know the display can also do it. But for me this is a matter of principle. Frankly they're not thinking that the consumer will buy the PS3 ($500) and a stand alone player ($1000)...

I think this is sad.

At the same time, it would be foolish business sense for Sony to put this feature any where but dead last on the "to do" list. It's already been cited that the display is going to do the exact same thing, so it's a moot point.

At the same time, it would be foolish business sense for Sony to put this feature any where but dead last on the "to do" list. It's already been cited that the display is going to do the exact same thing, so it's a moot point.

It is foolish not to include a feature that consumers will rely upon to make their earlier purchases even more worthwhile.

Displays do have scalers, but they are no where near as nice as upscaling DVD players. Its not "going to do the exact same thing" just like my basketball skills are no comparable to Jordan, or even a run-of-the-mill NBA player. Sony really dropped the ball on a unit that for all intents and purposes could do much more. Makes me even more hesistant to assume its a great BD players. BD playback is probably also "low on the to-do list" because it is a gaming machine, first and foremost.

Sony will definitely make the PS3 a great BD player, otherwise a half a million people will be turned off by it and will be bad times for blu-ray.

For upscale me personally I could care less, I have a good dvd player for that but would rather watch high-def, afterall that is what this forum is all about.

Also I think the most gripes posted on this thread are by hd-dvd supporters.

This is something that the current HD DVD players do very very well. Amazingly well in fact. Most HD DVD owners have been very surprised on how well their current DVDs look.

If this is true, I hope it is not, then Sony is deliberately not using the computational resources available in the PS3 to improve the playback of DVDs, just so Blu-ray discs will look better in comparison. They would be in fact limiting the video output of DVD's just to sell more Blu-ray discs. They would be hurting the consumer by limiting DVD quality to an non-upconverted quality just to sell more discs. I understand the conflict of interest here, but OMFG. :eek:

They would give a market advantage to the Xbox 360 add on, and the second gen HD DVD players which do upconvert SD DVDs.

I can recommend buying a HD DVD player or a Xbox 360 add on drive now because of their superb upconversion of standard DVDs. I was assuming I could do this for the PS3 as well. If they do not upconvert DVDs, then that would be horrible situation. It eliminates one advantage of buying the new player, to make your existing collection look better.

The PS3 would be the only sub $500 Blu-ray player for most if not all of 2007. I don't know if Sony would be so stupid as to give away to HD DVD the advantage of upconverting your current DVD library to near HD. They couldn't be that stupid , could they? :confused:

Just as stupid as the 360 addon that doesn't allow for high def audio?

Exactly, the upconversion feature is a moot point, since few people are buying a console by how well it upconverts dvds. It's a side benefit that matters little whether it is there or not. BR playback is the greater priority (compared to dvd playback), so that will naturally have an impact on what features do and do not appear, as a matter of conflict of interest. In an ideal world, everything would be fuzzy and peachy, but we don't live in an ideal world.

On the brighter side of features in vs. features out, hdmi is in, so that's a good thing (assuming you had to choose between hdmi and dvd upconvert as options).

It would be stupider as the 306 addon does at least improve audio to the maximum of the SPIDF audio connection. And it doesn't limit it as a marketing decision, but a technical one as the 360 doesn't have 5.1 jacks or HDMI.

This decision if true, and I hope that it is not, would be stupid in that it would be intended to lessen a benefit to consumers just to increase Blu-ray discs sales. Or because they thought that upconversion of DVDs would not be seen as a consumer benefit and refused to develop it.

Wow, I thought gamers bought videogame systems to play games, or so I've heard around here. And now the PS3 with it's "limited" dvd video playback is hurting consumers and puts us in a horrible situation. Frickin Comical... :rolleyes:

Exactly, the upconversion feature is a moot point, since few people are buying a console by how well it upconverts dvds. It's a side benefit that matters little whether it is there or not. It may be a moot point to gamers, but not to people buying into a next generation HD format.

If you arguing that the PS3 will be used as a Blu-ray player, then its not a moot point.

I know many people who were on the fence about buying a HD DVD player but justified the price because of the SD upconversion. That includes me.

I however did not expect that it would be as good as it is.

The PS3 will be the entry level Blu-ray player for most of next year. If it doesn't compare to teh upconverting qualities of the HD DVD players or the 360 addon, then that is a marketing disadvantage. It already will be in short supply and more expensive.

I really just hope this isn't true.

Or because they thought that upconversion of DVDs would not be seen as a consumer benefit and refused to develop it.

It's a moot point, since alternatives exist to enjoy the very same feature. True, it could be done better, but that could be said of any solution in a larger picture- there's always a "bigger fish". The thing that will matter most to the typical consumer is if it can be done vs. not at all. In this case, it can, and that is by what is in the display or if they happen to be into external scalers.

If you are really into dvd upconversion prowess, then you surely aren't shopping for an hd player, altogether. You are shopping for a dedicated upconverting dvd player. This is not rocket science.

Wow, I thought gamers bought videogame systems to play games, or so I've heard around here. And now the PS3 with it's "limited" dvd video playback is hurting consumers and puts us in a horrible situation. Frickin Comical... :rolleyes: I've always said that the PS3 will be the most cost effective and reasonable way to get into Blu-ray if you are a videophile.

But if it doesn't upconvert, that changes the equation.

If Sony is would do this just to sell more Blu-ray discs, would you approve of that even though your video enjoyment of regular DVDs would be artificially handicaped?

Just so Sony could make more money.

You would approve if Sony intentionally limited the playback of regular DVDs to only SD quality and did not upconvert them, if the sole reason was to sell more Blu-ray discs and make Blu-ray picture quality look better by comparison?

One just has to buy the HD-DVD by Toshiba the new one coming out, as well as PS3, then you have everything, upcovert on the Toshiba and true-hd audio on both via an hdmi receiver. And movie selections from both.

Kosty,

It's a secondary feature. I don't care that much either way. That's the point that seems to be missed here.

It's silly to presume that someone is going to buy a PS3 and make it the only dvd playback device in the entire household. If they are really dependent on upconversion that badly, they will have other solutions, on hand. Ultimately, it will not have mattered if Sony included the feature or not on the console. It's a nice thing to have, but if it is missing, only the pickiest people are going to notice it missing. Let's face it, those kind of people are going to find something to complain about regardless, so there is no placating them.

Sony will definitely make the PS3 a great BD player, otherwise a half a million people will be turned off by it and will be bad times for blu-ray.

For upscale me personally I could care less, I have a good dvd player for that but would rather watch high-def, afterall that is what this forum is all about.

Also I think the most gripes posted on this thread are by hd-dvd supporters.


Umm have you seen most of the Sony encodes? If they really cared about "turning off customers" then those wouldn't exist. Upconversion is the main factor that got me to buy an HD-A1.

Kosty,

It's a secondary feature. I don't care that much either way. That's the point that seems to be missed here.

It's silly to presume that someone is going to buy a PS3 and make it the only dvd playback device in the entire household. If they are really dependent on upconversion that badly, they will have other solutions, on hand. Ultimately, it will not have mattered if Sony included the feature or not on the console. It's a nice thing to have, but if it is missing, only the pickiest people are going to notice it missing. Let's face it, those kind of people are going to find something to complain about regardless, so there is no placating them. Yes but many people are considering to have the PS3 as their entry level Blu-ray player in their living room, with their best display.

If you aer choosing to buy a PS3 or a entry level HD DVD player, then a theoritical superior upconversion capablity of one or the other could be a factor in your decision.

Or if you are not even considering HD DVD, and have heard about this fancy new Blu-ray stuff from the friendly big box retailer. You freaked at the $999 or $1299 or $1499 price tag of the Blu-ray players, but you heard the PS3 was coming out.

Its expensive too, but one way to justify it would be to say it makes your existing DVDs look better. If you can't say that about the PS3, then less people will buy it as a stand alone next generation player, because the Blu-ray released title catalog is still small.

No matter how you consider it, this lack of upconversion, if it is true, would be bad for consumers and a negative drag on Blu-ray because it would make the PS3 less attractive as a standalone player.

PS3 owners with HDTV's are going to have their DVD playback upconverted anyway, right?

PS3 owners with SDTV's won't see/need/get any dvd enhancement regardless.

upscaling a dvd is trivial to do on a PS3. I'm guessing sony doesn't enable it because they want consumers to see without a doubt the difference between BD and dvd.

PS3 owners with HDTV's are going to have their DVD playback upconverted anyway, right?

PS3 owners with SDTV's won't see/need/get any dvd enhancement regardless. Only through their displays capabilities.

The point is that HD DVD now is placing in its literature, the superior playback of your existing DVD collections. It all over the RCA player's box and is a key point of the upcoming HD DVD promotions. Its a key justification for buying an HD DVD player with the relatively small numbers of releases in HD out there.

If Sony can't say that, or states nothing, that means less peole will buy one, as it takes away one more thing that can justify the purchase.

upscaling a dvd is trivial to do on a PS3. I'm guessing sony doesn't enable it because they want consumers to see without a doubt the difference between BD and dvd. If that is true, that would be almost evil.

I can't believe Sony would really do that.

It's the same potential backfire for Toshiba's player, as well. If the upscaled dvd playback looks nearly as good as hd playback for a given movie, the consumer wonders why they spent $500 when they could have spent $250.

It's the same potential backfire for Toshiba's player, as well. If the upscaled dvd playback looks nearly as good as hd playback for a given movie, the consumer wonders why they spent $500 when they could have spent $250.Yep, but superior upconversion is a reality on the Toshiba generation one players. I have used the HD A1 the RCA clone and I now have in my new home theater a HD XA1. The upconversion is very very good.

It is a potential backfire fo HD DVD but they made the decision in favor a giving a better benefit by allowing it to happen. The HD DVD video is still clearly superior to the upconverted SD video, but it is clear the upconverted SD video is better than what it was. Saying and delivering on a promise that your existing collection will look better is a big advantage and can be made into a major selling point or justification of a buying decision.

Toshiba with its HD DVD player was not afraid to enable this "potential backfire" and made a decision clearly in the consumers interest. I hope Sony does this with the PS3 as well.

That's exactly the focus- it's simply a "decision" with no great impact, either way it goes. Business interests don't always coincide with consumer interests, nor is there an obligation to. That's the dark lining of not living in an ideal world. To say the sky is going to start falling because of it, is really pretty gratuitous.

I wouldn't worry too much about this. Sony plans to offer a number of updates for the PS3 over the course of the next year.

All sorts of features won't be available at release, including BD-Java Live, HDMI 1.3-specific features, DTS-HD decoding, 1080p24, etc.

That's exactly the focus- it's simply a "decision" with no great impact, either way it goes. Business interests don't always coincide with consumer interests, nor is there an obligation to. That's the dark lining of not living in an ideal world. To say the sky is going to start falling because of it, is really pretty gratuitous.I am not saying the sky is falling because of it.

What I am saying is, If this is true, it is Sony taking away a significant benefit to consumers solely to increase sales of Blu-ray discs.

Toshiba did not feel a need to do this with their HD DVD players. They gave the consumers the benefit of superior SD DVD upconversion. The HD DVD quality is still clearly superior to the upconverted SD DVDs.

If Sony would not do this, then either 1) They are afraid that Blu-ray would not look significantly better than upconverted SD DVD and were afraid to enable it, because it would possibly impact on Blu-ray title sales 2) they didn't think a major consumer benefit was important as HD DVD thought it was 3( they didn't have enough time or resources to develop that capability or 4) the silicon and other hardware won't support it.

No matter what, if this is the case, it lessens the value of the PS3 to consumers and loses a way that people can justify the purchase. That cannot be good.

Link from IGN on the lack of PS3 upscaling. :(

http://ps3.ign.com/articles/740/740601p4.html

There is some speculation in the PS3 as a Blu-ray player thread that this might have been a misquote or a tactical decision ot improve Sony's standalone Blu-ray player sales, which should have upscaling capabilities.

No matter what, if this is the case, it lessens the value of the PS3 to consumers and loses a way that people can justify the purchase. That cannot be good.

...or it may not matter in the slightest (hence, the sky isn't going to fall because of it). That's the point I've been trying to get across here.

People are coming to the PS3 for the PS3 games first and foremost- that's all the justification needed. If it also has decent BR playback, the rest is just gravy, imo. :D

People aren't shopping for consoles like a health plan...

The wording in the reports seemed to suggest other features were in-line for future upgrading/addition

Sony plans to offer a number of updates for the PS3 over the course of the next year. All sorts of features won't be available at release, including BD-Java Live, HDMI 1.3-specific features, DTS-HD decoding, 1080p24, etc.

As a company, when did Sony stop selling products and start selling promises?

Blu-ray. PS3. Oh. They'll be really, really good someday.

...or it may not matter in the slightest (hence, the sky isn't going to fall because of it). That's the point I've been trying to get across here.

People are coming to the PS3 for the PS3 games first and foremost- that's all the justification needed. If it also has decent BR playback, the rest is just gravy, imo. :D

People aren't shopping for consoles like a health plan...The reason we are talking about PS3s here in this portion of the forum is their use as a player. You're just saying that people won't buy them as Blu-ray players. If that's the case then not a lot of Blu-ray discs will be sold with them.

I think many people were holding off buying into the HD shiny disc era until they saw the PS3. And Blu-ray is going to part of the PS3 pitch. If the PS3 won't upconvert that makes the entry HD DVD players more attractive. If you're saying that few people were going to buy the PS3 for Blu-ray playback anyway then not a lot of other Blu-ray players will be sold next year. If the PS3 doesn't sell Blu-ray discs then thats a problem for the BDA.

If that is true, that would be almost evil.

I can't believe Sony would really do that.

it makes perfect sense. BD within the PS3 demographic is not competing with hd dvd, but DVD. why would anyone pay premium prices for BD if upconverted DVD looks pretty good relative to BD? I don't think most people even realize that upconverting DVD players even exist, or dont really care.

The reason we are talking about PS3s here in this portion of the forum is their use as a player. You're just saying that people won't buy them as Blu-ray players. If that's the case then not a lot of Blu-ray discs will be sold with them.

No, I'm saying nothing of the sort. A PS3 is a game console, first and foremost. That is its primary market. This doesn't automatically mean that its primary market is utterly oblivious to movies. Quite likely, they are similarly interested in movies as they are games. It's a 2-prong approach. If you count dvd playback, then it is a 3-prong approach, as well. The remaining persons who absolutely must have upscaling in the player, obviously will have to look elsewhere. However, the elsewhere solutions are hardly back breaking. It's entirely possible they already have a decent upscaling dvd player. All said and done, everything will be hunky dory. PS3 will play the games, it will play the BR movies, and it will play DVD movies with upscaling done in the display or external scaler. That's essentially 98% of the market served. Overlap that with persons who already have a decent upscaling dvd player, and your up to 99%. The last 1% is just going to finally buck up and buy an upscaling dvd player for $150 if they need it so bad. Big whoop! I just don't see the sky falling on this revelation.

It almost certainly has to be a non-compete with blu-ray thing doesn't it ?

The idea that the PS3's video card can't do overlay resizing is absurd given the manufacturer.

If the 360 add-on doesn't have HDMI outputs does that mean it won't be able to upscale DVDs with CSS protection? Or will it limit upscaling to monitors that have a VGA input?

No, I'm saying nothing of the sort. A PS3 is a game console, first and foremost. That is its primary market. This doesn't automatically mean that its primary market is utterly oblivious to movies. Quite likely, they are similarly interested in movies as they are games. It's a 2-prong approach. If you count dvd playback, then it is a 3-prong approach, as well. The remaining persons who absolutely must have upscaling in the player, obviously will have to look elsewhere. However, the elsewhere solutions are hardly back breaking. It's entirely possible they already have a decent upscaling dvd player. All said and done, everything will be hunky dory. PS3 will play the games, it will play the BR movies, and it will play DVD movies with upscaling done in the display or external scaler. That's essentially 98% of the market served. Overlap that with persons who already have a decent upscaling dvd player, and your up to 99%. The last 1% is just going to finally buck up and buy an upscaling dvd player for $150 if they need it so bad. Big whoop! I just don't see the sky falling on this revelation. I understand. Your point is that most people will buy the PS3 as a game console, with HD playback as a secondary concern. If that is the case, then logically then at least in the short term, while PS3 supplies are tight, then the Blu-ray movie attach rate is likely to be very small. If the people who are the most likely to buy Blu-ray movies are discouraged from buying the lowest price Blu-ray player (the PS3) then it is likely that the sales of Blu-ray movie discs will remain lower than HD DVD. Your premise is that the PS3 will be bought as a game machine first and that any Blu-ray movie purchases will be incidental over time.

In any case, that does not seem to be a benefit to consumers.

If the 360 add-on doesn't have HDMI outputs does that mean it won't be able to upscale DVDs with CSS protection? Or will it limit upscaling to monitors that have a VGA input?The 360 add on will not upscale standard DVD's over component. Only through VGA or through a future adapter. But a lot of HDTVs have VGA input capability.

If the 360 add-on doesn't have HDMI outputs does that mean it won't be able to upscale DVDs with CSS protection? Or will it limit upscaling to monitors that have a VGA input?

It will upscale only through VGA. Games will still be 1080p through all connections, 1080p for VGA movies. You could (if your display has the DVI-I, I believe) DVI connection, use a VGA to DVI converter cable (20 bucks at most). Most displays that have these will be clear about it, its kinda a rare connection.

While I think the upscaling of the HD-A1 is nice, it seems to me like this issue of the PS3 not upscaling DVDs is a little bit like the 1080i vs 1080p issue where I pointed out after CES that it was being way overblown and oversold by some on the BD side. For a fixed pixel display somebody has to upscale and the PS3 doing a bad job wouldn't be much better than not upscaling DVDs at all (although I suspect they could make it have good upscaling if they care enough). For high end people who still want to watch DVDs, a better feature might be an ability to output 480i over HDMI without messing with the data. Then people could run that through a nice scaler. No idea about whether it will allow that though.

Also, I know that on the Toshiba I value the ability to burn my own HD content onto discs way more than the ability to upscale DVDs. To me not being able to burn HD content is a bigger deal than not upscaling DVDs. But, if the PS3 allows me to put my own HD on the hard drive and play it back, I'll consider that a better feature than upscaling DVDs too. I know many people would feel differently, but I just don't plan on ever going back to 480i DVDs.

--Darin

BR playback is the greater priority (compared to dvd playback)
Yup, I bet nobody's gonna be interested in playing back DVDs on their Playstation. Everybody's got a dvd collection at home, but that doesn't matter because - as we all know - PS3 buyers will immediately run outside and get a BR collection going instead.

Maybe Sony didn't include the SD DVD upconverting feature in PS3, because the upconverted Superbit Fifth Element looked excatly as BR version ;)

AnD

The 360 add on will not upscale standard DVD's over component. Only through VGA or through a future adapter. But a lot of HDTVs have VGA input capability.
I was down at Curry's today and took a look at the backs of many of their HDTVs - not one had a VGA input. Not a one. And these were all the main brand names.

Interesting thread. Based on all the previous discussion of how the PS3 would be a major force in at home movie playback, there are a few posts where I honestly can't tell if people are being serious or facetious.

I may be wrong, but this seems to be an admission on the part of Sony that the PS3 will be used by gamers for games and not movie playback. It seems that they are acknowledging that the PS3 will not be the trojan horse that it had been arguing it would be in the "format war".

It does seem inconsistent that Sony would preach that the PS3 will serve as a media server for home entertainment and NOT support upscaling of DVDs. I am probably in the minority, but I was hoping the PS3 would first be a media server and game platform second. I am not sure it really has to be this way - no reason it can't be both. As already mentioned - it must be a strategic positioning move by Sony. A move that will keep me from getting the PS3 if that is the case. However, for most it might not be a big deal.

Thanks,
Paul

I may be wrong, but this seems to be an admission on the part of Sony that the PS3 will be used by gamers for games and not movie playback. It seems that they are acknowledging that the PS3 will not be the trojan horse that it had been arguing it would be in the "format war".

Yea, with Sony putting a BD-50 movie disc in the box with the first 500,000 PS3s, that should be a dead giveaway of them abandoning the "Trojan Horse" marketing... :rolleyes:

b2b

It does not look like the Talledega Nights accompanying the PS3 is going to be a BD-50, if this Video Business article is any indication:

http://www.videobusiness.com/article/CA6383501.html?nid=2842

Maybe Sony didn't include the SD DVD upconverting feature in PS3, because the upconverted Superbit Fifth Element looked excatly as BR version ;)

AnDTo be serious, I saw both the Blu-ray version played on the Samsung and the upconverted SD Superbit version upconverted on the HD XA1 and the HD A1. The HD DVD upconverted version was clearly superior.

But that's not saying much since the 5E Blu-ray disc was sooooo bad. I can't say if that would apply to other Blu-ray titles.

But it may be very well true that a lot of people may not be able to tell a difference between a early MPEG2 25GB Blu-ray title and a nicely upconverted SD DVD, even more so if they had a smaller display.

So to limit the upconversion would serve to highlight the improvement that Blu-ray disk gives over SD DVD.

I understand. Your point is that most people will buy the PS3 as a game console, with HD playback as a secondary concern. If that is the case, then logically then at least in the short term, while PS3 supplies are tight, then the Blu-ray movie attach rate is likely to be very small.

Not at all. The movie attach rate will be whatever is appropriate for those who are also fans of movies. As has been qualified earlier, gamers are no stranger to movies. They will buy the PS3, they will buy games, they will buy movies. Interest in one is not to mean less interest in the other. The difference between "primary" and "secondary" need not be a some severe mark drawn in the sand. It's entirely up to the user to decide in what way(s) they will use their PS3. It may be more games than movies, it may be more movies than games, it may be a lot of both- it's entirely up to the person's tastes.

The rest of these "sky is falling" comments by others are just plain silly.

Perhaps, your concerns of dvd upconversion playback are calling for a poll for how many people here have some sort of player or display that does this. Do you think it will be nearly unanimous or low? If its the former, then you will know that PS3 not doing upconversion is such a minut impact, it's a ridiculous thing to lament.

Well in this case a poll here would not be representative of the population that will likely 1) inititally buy the PS3 or 2) the larger general Sony is hoping to sell the PS3 to.

I am not sure of the impact this will have on Blu-ray sales. It may very well be right that a superior upconversion capability would decrease Blu-ray discs sales. But by taking away that benefit from consumers, Sony may be hurting consumer's SD video quality solely to profit more on Blu-ray disc sales.

Toshiba and Microsoft's HD DVD players did not take that route. That gives them an advantage in that they can say your existing SD DVD collection will look better when played on those HD DVD players. That can be a justification for upgrading.

If the lack of SD upconversion is true with the PS3, then the improved playback of existing DVDs cannot be used as a justification to purchase a PS3. Now there may all sorts of legitimate business reasons for Sony to do this, but the bottom line is that the HD DVD players would be a better value for this particular issue.

I seriously doubt bundling a BR movie with the PS3 will have much effect on BR movie disc sales at all.

Now there may all sorts of legitimate business reasons for Sony to do this, but the bottom line is that the HD DVD players would be a better value for this particular issue.

Not so- if the person was looking to buy a PS3 for the games, then an hdvd player would not replace that feature. If they were looking to just upscale dvd playback, then they would buy some $150 player, not a hdvd player. The hdvd player is only a better value if they are looking at the primary application specifically- to play hddvd movies.

It's no better or worse than the PS3 situation from that standpoint.

But buy a HD DVD player for HD DVD movies, get SD upconversion to make your existing DVDs look better, for free. Thats extra value.

But buy a HD DVD player for HD DVD movies, get SD upconversion to make your existing DVDs look better, for free. Thats extra value.

While it would go against conventional wisdom... ;) A stripped down BD only player (no CD, no DVD, no nothing but BD playback) that has only a HDMI port, LR audio, SPDIF out and a remote control, with a selling price of $199, could be a big hit.

If all of the HD-DVD fans love the idea of the Xbox 360 addon, then a BD-only player for the same price ($199) is not that much of a stretch in logic (considering you don't have to have a $400 console to get it to work..)

b2b

But buy a HD DVD player for HD DVD movies, get SD upconversion to make your existing DVDs look better, for free. Thats extra value.

well for $500 not only do you get the most advanced HD player on the market, you also get free PS3 game playing ability. you can also use it as a linux computer. not only that, its half the cost of other BD players. I'd say thats providing quite a bit of value.

instead of getting mad at sony for not including dvd upconverting (for the moment, I have no doubt it will be included at some point as a software upgrade) why not get mad at MS for not providing its customers an HDMI solution for its hd dvd add on? I'd consider that a greater disservice to its customers compared to what sony has done.

The people who care about dvd upscaling would never use the PS3 for that purpose anyway.

Not so- if the person was looking to buy a PS3 for the games, then an hdvd player would not replace that feature. If they were looking to just upscale dvd playback, then they would buy some $150 player, not a hdvd player. The hdvd player is only a better value if they are looking at the primary application specifically- to play hddvd movies.

It's no better or worse than the PS3 situation from that standpoint.

That's some serious spin. From your standpoint, sure everything is coming up Blu. If you look at it from a typical HT consumer standpoint, the PS3 is less appealing than the HD-A1 because it offers less secondary applications. Basically it has become now a gaming machine first (as I have been maintaining) and a BD player second (if even, we'll see the quality of BD playback). It is not worth it for SD DVDs, so it is less useful than a basic HD DVD player. If a HT consumer is choosing which to purchase first, the choice should be clear. If they have a high end Denon upscaling player or an Oppo, it may be a closer tie, but saying that some 150 buck player upscales as well as the A1 again shows your clear bias. That is simply untrue.

well for $500 not only do you get the most advanced HD player on the market, you also get free PS3 game playing ability. you can also use it as a linux computer. not only that, its half the cost of other BD players. I'd say thats providing quite a bit of value.

instead of getting mad at sony for not including dvd upconverting (for the moment, I have no doubt it will be included at some point as a software upgrade) why not get mad at MS for not providing its customers an HDMI solution for its hd dvd add on? I'd consider that a greater disservice to its customers compared to what sony has done.

You don't need HDMI :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

How many modern HD-centric A/V components don't include HDMI? Not very many. Unless they're the type that wants SDI, I'd say the serious HD buyer would find the statement above a bit laughable. It's another apologist mainstay...straight from the Microsoft PR department. You can indeed get pretty pictures from component, but its NOT ideal. Best to keep the whole path digital if you can, right (additional D/A/D processing is what leads most folks to say that the component feeds tend to be a bit 'softer' than the digital connects)? All digital pipeline, with content protection, seems to be where things have been headed for a long time. Why argue that point, it's silly.

Now, if you want the best DVD upscaling, I say Sony should provide 480i over its HDMI and let dedicated outboard scalers (i.e. DVDO) do their thing. This was mentioned above and is right on. I wish their 400-disc DVD juke did so, as I'm forced to use their component outs (until I spring for an SDI mod, perhaps) and I know I'm losing a bit of quality there.

I'm decidedly NOT arguing that the lack of inclusion of DVD upscaling w/in the PS3 isn't dissapointing. I know it'd be a boon for many people. I certainly hope it gets added in some update, down the line for those folks that would like the scaling done internally. I'm just tired of misinformation and FUD creeping into these conversations at every turn.

I don't see component output on the PS3

I don't see component output on the PS3You get component output with the AV breakout cable.

Excellent point, shanewalker! :)

How many modern HD-centric A/V components don't include HDMI? Not very many. Unless they're the type that wants SDI, I'd say the serious HD buyer would find the statement above a bit laughable. It's another apologist mainstay...straight from the Microsoft PR department. You can indeed get pretty pictures from component, but its NOT ideal.

That's your opinion, but its not from a MS apologist. I don't own a 360, nor do I plan on ever getting one. If you believe HDMI is better fine, but its not proven to be and I don't think your opinion carries any more weight than mine. HDMI is riddled with issues including voltage mismatch, lack of firm specifications, connection issues, and lets not forget the ever-present handshake headache. Component is a proven technology. I have multiple HD sources all running component, all the latest and greatest technologies. If you buy into HDMI being great, that's your problem, but stating such a broad statement is misleading. The fact is that you don't need HDMI and saying that you do isn't a counter-point but more "FUD" (a revoltingly stupid acronym).

That D/A A/D conversion only applies to digital displays, not analog. You're speaking from strictly that perspective, get that straight.

The "pretty pictures" comment just makes me laugh as you simply are buying propoganda about HDMI being better without doing any real-life testing.

Granted, implementations can be better than what is seen so far, but on a technical basis, hdmi is definitely the way forward for digital-based video.

That D/A A/D conversion only applies to digital displays, not analog. You're speaking from strictly that perspective, get that straight.

The "pretty pictures" comment just makes me laugh as you simply are buying propoganda about HDMI being better without doing any real-life testing.

HDTVs, in every modern incarnation, are digital displays. I think I was pretty clear that I was talking about the 'state of the art and moving forward'. No problem with my "perspective" as far I can see. If you want to talk about the merits of various technologies for interfacing with older analog CRT-based HD displays, that's another story.

And as for real-life testing...I have several pieces of hardware w/ both HDMI and component outs and have done just that--compared PQ of the same content on both. Plus there's the whole 'read an experts write-up on Product XYZ in a well-respected A/V publication' thing that I've done a few hundred times that reiterate this fact. Of course there are bad implementations of HDMI that are problematic...but those are, as defined, bad implementations. The facts are what they are...thus the FUD stupid acronym. Nothing personal, just trying to push some data correction and perspective into the ole' inevitable partisan debate here on these threads. Take it or leave it.

The bottom line is Sony is intentionally leaving out a consumer benefit (upscaling DVDs) so that Blu-ray will look better in comparison and they can sell more Blu-ray discs and stand alone Blu-ray players.

They must have made a conscious decision to highlight the difference between standard definition DVDs and Blu-ray discs and perhaps they were afraid that upconversion of standard DVD's would blur that distinction. That is a valid business and marketing decision. Not to the consumers benefit, but still a valid decision.

It is however, different than the approach the HD DVD camp os taking where standard DVD upconversion is taking place where upconverted DVD's look noticably better, to the benefit of consumers. The HD DVD discs still look even better than that, so the HD DVD folks were not afraid to give the consumers the upconversion capability.

The fact is that you don't need HDMI and saying that you do isn't a counter-point but more "FUD" (a revoltingly stupid acronym).You don't need lossless audio either, but one of the main reasons the XBOX360 can't give you 5.1 lossless audio is because it doesn't have HDMI (and they don't have dedicated lines for 5.1 lossless either). And before people say, "But the XBOX360 add-on supports TrueHD 5.1", that is only if you define "supports" as decoding, but not giving it to you (giving you DD 640k after downconversion instead if you select the TrueHD 5.1 track).

As far as video goes, I would agree that HDMI is often overrated. The one providing the better images between HDMI and component can depend heavily on the display, with some looking better with component and some looking better with HDMI. Having a choice is nice when you don't know which one might look better on your current display or a future display though.

--Darin

Darin, what do you think about the probable lack of SD DVD upconversion in the PS3?

Darin, what do you think about the probable lack of SD DVD upconversion in the PS3?There is a lot of functionality missing from the release software. Sony didn't have time to implement everything they wanted for release, so they prioritized and implemented what they could. I expect DVD upscaling in an update within a few months of release.

There is a lot of functionality missing from the release software. Sony didn't have time to implement everything they wanted for release, so they prioritized and implemented what they could. I expect DVD upscaling in an update within a few months of release. So you think this was a time to get it right issue, and not an evil plot to sell more Blu-ray discs?

For all the production delay time, I find that difficult to believe. But I hope you are right.

The bottom line is Sony is intentionally leaving out a consumer benefit (upscaling DVDs) so that Blu-ray will look better in comparison and they can sell more Blu-ray discs and stand alone Blu-ray players.

so what? if leaving out DVD upconversion means consumers will buy BD instead of DVD I'm all for it. it is in the BDA's and BD supporters best interest for consumers with BD devices to purchase BDs. that will accelerate the acceptance of BD into the mainstream. anyways, you're on a slippery slope here. you're making a big deal about sony leaving out an arguably minor feature when on the whole neither toshiba nor microsoft have delivered a single device that comes close to providing the amount of value to consumers that a $500 PS3 does.

I expect DVD upscaling in an update within a few months of release.

I don't.

Pure speculation, but DVD upscaling could have been left out of the SW load when the $499 model wasn't going to ship with HDMI. Right now the motivations and conditions aren't known.

b2b

Pure speculation, but DVD upscaling could have been left out of the SW load when the $499 model wasn't going to ship with HDMI. Right now the motivations and conditions aren't known.

b2b That's the most logical thing I've seen on this entire event. It would not have made sense to have developed upscaling when the $499 version didn't have HDMI. Good observation B2. ;)

To me that makes the business decision to not have upscaling legitimate, not an evil plot.

I have an Oppo and am buying the PS3 (was one of the lucky 12 at my local EBGames) for games first and blu-ray second, as is just about everyone else. The HDMI port was just added to the 20gb version and everything is already in production. If there is a big enough demand for upconversion, sony will issue an update. They did it with PSP and web browsing. I can see your view that Sony is trying to shove Blu-Ray down everyone's throat but i do not think that it is the case.

With B2's observation, I am now convinced that there was a legit technical reason not to include the upconversion capablity, beside the strategic marketing reasons.

As I said before, increasing BD sales and making Blu-ray look better in comparison is a legit business decision.

It remains that the HD DVD capablity for the standalone players through HDMI and the 360 add on through VGA will be a competitive advantage and consumer benefit that HD DVD alone will have.

I have an Oppo and am buying the PS3 (was one of the lucky 12 at my local EBGames) for games first and blu-ray second, as is just about everyone else. The HDMI port was just added to the 20gb version and everything is already in production. If there is a big enough demand for upconversion, sony will issue an update. They did it with PSP and web browsing. I can see your view that Sony is trying to shove Blu-Ray down everyone's throat but i do not think that it is the case.

I think its entirely likely that, given all the production/development issues and resultant delays that Sony has had, they simply had to prioritize features for the initial release. There could be something deliberate and 'nefarious', of course...but I bet its more the former. They (particularly Kaz) have stated they want the PS3 to be the 'everything box' on several occasions, only recently curtailing their words to push 'gaming first', so I think that DVD upscaling will eventually see its way into the system. No guarantee, but likely I'd say. Blu-ray and, of course, gaming functionality took the front seat for launch...DVDs are, perhaps, 'yesterday' in the Sony mindset. Crazy, I know, but think of who we're talking about here and their focus on Blu-ray for all the proverbial marbles.

As has been pointed out...they did likewise w/ the PSP. The PS3 has a LOT in common w/ the PSP in terms of end-user experience and system managment/updating schemes. Those of us who own the PSP know first hand how the system updates roll out every couple of months, and how many significant features have been added since launch.

Oh, and as has been reiterated elsewhere, the XBox 360 didn't have DVD upconversion/scaling either, until it was given the feature in a firmware update well after launch. So the precidence is well set, eh?

All these arguments seem to be mute, considering that the blue ray players do have upconversion capabilities. Why would it be included on the br players if these companies felt that the scalers on the HDTVs were sufficient? Seems everybody is grabbing for straws.

All these arguments seem to be mute, considering that the blue ray players do have upconversion capabilities. Why would it be included on the br players if these companies felt that the scaler on HDTV were sufficient? Seems everybody is grabbing for straws.

Bullet point.

How many atrocious progressive DVD players are out there? Maybe 5% are doing it properly. How about upconversion? How many do it well, and for how many is it a bullet point on a box?

If the PS/3 is going to do it eventually, it has to be superior upconversion. Don't bother if it is just a bullet point to shut people up.

Gary

At least it has hdmi I would never buy high def without one. Studios will eventually turn on ICT encryption.

After read this thread, it's clear that everyone has their own take on which features are most important to them.

For me, the PS3's ability to handle PS1/PS2/DVD software is initially the most important feature of the system.

These are the software collections I currently have, after all.

I'm currently using the prog scan (+ version) PS2 for all movie and game duties over component video.

Now that Sony has announced that the PS3 will not upconvert anything, the only benefit the system initially offers for my current software collections is HDMI video.

Apparently, Sony's only concern is that everyone immediately buy all available Blu-ray movies and games.

I'm not that stupid or rich, so I will most likely cancel my pre-order.

I wanted to have the option to buy Blu-ray movies and games later, but I won't be herded like cattle.

Sony is apparently against the upconverting of older software, so there's little reason to assume they will add this feature later.

Sony has added some features to the PSP, but they have also aggressively blocked homebrew development and used firmware updates to prevent non-UMD software from running.

This is not a company that does anything by accident.

As a result of Sony's heavy-handedness, the PSP has undersold in terms of units and has a small & expensive software library.

Is anyone completely shocked by this? It's the PS2 all over again. All the hype and promises in the build up, and then once the curtain is finally pulled back the product is not as advertised.

The PS3 will be a good game system, but Sony is just mostly full of crap.

I've been boycotting Sony products for a couple years now for these kind of reasons.
They've put their bottom line above the customer. It's too bad because they once were a great CE company, but now it's just a slow massive trainwreck in the makings.

Time to lock this thread, as it seems to just become a Sony bash thread by the usual suspects.

For me, the PS3's ability to handle PS1/PS2/DVD software is initially the most important feature of the system.

These are the software collections I currently have, after all.


Since your PS/2 handles PS/2 and PS/1 software, and you don't seem to care about PS/3 software or BD movies, what were you hoping to get out of a PS/3?

Seems a damn expensive thing to consider simply for legacy support.

Gary

Is this verified, the non-upscaling?

Movies I can see at least somewhat but not upscaling games seems a bit odd at best. I suppose it will all be left to your televisions scaler?

Time to lock this thread, as it seems to just become a Sony bash thread by the usual suspects.

Well, its negative news about the PS3. What else can anyone expect but negative comments about bad news. Its as if the A2s didn't upscale movies, there would be plenty of bashing and negative comments.

I can't even count the number of times 360 and no HDMI is brought up on a daily basis.

I have no horse in the gaming area (console wise) as I have a very capable PC, but it is still disappointing to see a HT/gaming console not uprez games or SD DVDs.

The PS3 will not upscale SD DVDs, etc

I can't even count the number of times 360 and no HDMI is brought up on a daily basis.

well its stupid that MS didnt have the foresight to include it. obvioulsy there are benefits and people want it. that being said, not having HDMI will not be a big deal if future revisions dont include it, which is highly unlikely. despite what some people think, HDMI is the future.

I have no horse in the gaming area (console wise) as I have a very capable PC, but it is still disappointing to see a HT/gaming console not uprez games or SD DVDs.

does your PC uprez DVDs? and why would your be dissapointed that PS3 doesnt uprez games? PS2 didnt uprez PS1 games. and MS BC implementation (if it even works) is marginal at best. sony has chosen to go for maximum BC by including PS2 hardware in each PS3. so what if all the games still look like PS2? at least they ALL WORK.

does your PC uprez DVDs? and why would your be dissapointed that PS3 doesnt uprez games? P

My PC can uprez DVDs, but luckily for me I have an HD DVD player that does that function way better than a HTPC. I'm disappointed that the PS3 doesn't uprez because it was billed as a HT solution and it isn't. It is a BD solution, but how great of a BD solution is yet to be seen.

Darin, what do you think about the probable lack of SD DVD upconversion in the PS3?I gave some of my thoughts in post #50 in this thread. As far as whether Sony did it on purpose to make BDs look better, I think it is hard to say, but possible. It is also possible that they put it on the nice to have list for their engineers and having more separation between BDs and DVDs could have been a reason for not giving it higher priority, but bad upconverting could have given them even more separation. As has been mentioned, for fixed pixel displays, the DVD is going to get upconverted anyway, so it just depends on who does the best job.

I don't see Sony having much incentive to not have DVD upconversion in a year or two, so my guess is that it will get in there at some point, as long as the task bubbles up high enough on the todo list for the engineers.

As far as consumers, I think the good upconversion of the Toshiba players is nice for a lot of people and there are people who will miss that on the PS3.

--Darin

I don't work for Microsoft, but the rumour going around is that the HDMI connection for the Xbox 360 would go into the console, not the add on drive, and at the time the hdmi 1.3 spec and chips were not finalized or available. For Microsoft to add a HDMI 1.3 connection to the Xbox 360 is IMO quite likely. At the same time, by not offering HDMI Microsoft is able to build a base that will be a deterrent for the studios to force HDCP. As the battle is shaping up, we seem to have the hd dvd folks offering a more open flexible system, no region coding, upscaling standard dvd's on vga, full support outside of HDMI, on the other BD side we seem to have the systems being tightened up more and more, no upscaling of dvd's, region coding, only HDMI, BD+

John

The PS3 should be able to upconvert legacy games to HD. No problem there.

The upconversion of standard DVD's is the issue here.

I have a Dell 2405 that I was planning on using for the PS3. It seems like I'll have a problem with HDCP encryption.

Should I try to swap out the 2405 for a 2407 which seems to be more trouble, or should I find a converter that does away with HDCP?

Does anyone see any problems running the PS3 at 1900 x 1200 w/ 1 to 1?

reading through this thread makes me laugh I think its commical to expect the ps3 to be some awesome HT player. Its first and for most a game console. I know they are touting BR this and BR that. Did anyone else ever try to run a DVD on their Ps2? the DVD feature IMHO of the ps2 was junk from day one. Everyone made a huge deal about ps2 playing dvd. it could be the worst DVD player to ever hit the market. I expect the same from the ps3.

The Blu-ray and DVD capability (its use as a replacement Home theater player) of the PS3 is important because every Blu-ray spokesman has said it is, and the BDA has used it as justification to the studios in their decision making in supporting Blu-ray, and the fact that the PS3 will be the only Blu-ray player near its price point for most if not all of 2007.

If the lack of SD upconversion lowers its sales, or its use as a dedicated movie player, then it may have an impact. Of course, its lack of SD upconversion may have the effect of increasing Blu-ray sales, so it may be a legitimate business decision.

I don't feel it can really have a direct impact on increasing BR sales. I just see it as a way to make it fairly easy to see the visual improvement of hd playback. If you add upscaling dvd to it, that kind of stacks the deck aqainst noticing the difference. Maybe that is a more noble goal, but it certainly doesn't make any business sense when the objective is a successful launch of a new format.

One could even argue that if you are comparing 2 things it should be as apples to apples as possible. By employing "special processing" for dvd playback, but not BR playback, it isn't a particularly fair test.

One could even argue that if you are comparing 2 things it should be as apples to apples as possible. By employing "special processing" for dvd playback, but not BR playback, it isn't a particularly fair test.

So if one could make $9.00 SD-DVD look as good as a Blu-Ray one shouldn't do it because it isn't fair.

You make laugh:)

does your PC uprez DVDs? and why would your be dissapointed that PS3 doesnt uprez games? PS2 didnt uprez PS1 games.

Because even the Sega Dreamcast could up res/render, upsample the textures, and apply antialiasing to PS1 games, all without any support from Sony. Hence one would expect Sony being the owner of the technology would be able to do at least that if not a better job. Hmmm one thinks Sony should have hired/bought out the Bleem crew rather than wasting their dosh on law suits and the like.

The PS3 should be able to upconvert legacy games to HD. No problem there.

The upconversion of standard DVD's is the issue here.

I would be suprised if games were not scaled, very suprised since many older hdtv's will actually require a 1080i signal to display anything on the high def input.

With the great PS1 and PS2 library and the downloadable content coming as well, this is an important function for PS3 to perform.

So if one could make $9.00 SD-DVD look as good as a Blu-Ray one shouldn't do it because it isn't fair.

From an apples to apples standpoint, no. This is not to say it could be made to look as good. This is to say representing the difference in a fair match is just as relevant.

Shane,

Come on, it's more than just a bit of a let down.

Come on, y'all... You make it sound like upsampling a game library thousands of titles deep is easy. I'm not at all suprised that it won't "upsample" PS1 and PS2 games. And I'll still be in line to buy one.

Because even the Sega Dreamcast could up res/render, upsample the textures, and apply antialiasing to PS1 games, all without any support from Sony. Hence one would expect Sony being the owner of the technology would be able to do at least that if not a better job. Hmmm one thinks Sony should have hired/bought out the Bleem crew rather than wasting their dosh on law suits and the like.

oh please. bleem only worked with a handful of games. do you understand the concept of backwards compatibilty? the most important thing is to get the games to actually WORK. which it seems MS can barely do with their software based emulation solution. sony had PS1 hardware in PS2 and will have PS2 hardware in PS3, which guarantees virtually 100% BC. anything on top of that is gravy. whats the point of better textures, higer resolution etc, if you cant even get the game to run? maybe MS should hire Sony engineers to help with their BC??

Just purchased a Sony 40v2500 (1080p) at CC due to the recent price drops.

Hooked up my prog scan PS2 with component video and tested a good DVD (Jason X, fresh from this week's Halloween DVD sale).

PQ as upconverted by my HDTV is OK, but there's lots of combing artifacts that make 16x9 DVD look like an old rez-poor 4:3 encoded DVD from back in the day.

Clearly (as expected), I need an upconvert device and that need was suppose to be filled by the PS3.

Guess I need to re-think my format choice or just go with a $200 upconverter.

========

For those who declare the PS3 is a game machine...why is it being packaged with a free movie and not a free game?

I understand Sony wants to sell Blu-ray movies and games, but that's a transition that won't eventually happen unless people BUY the system to begin with.

By electing to not upconvert PS1/PS2/DVD, Sony is saying it's 'Blu-ray or nothing'.

I think that's greedy and short-sighted. A system that costs $500-$600 can and should do more.

Guess I need to re-think my format choice or just go with a $200 upconverter.

========

For those who declare the PS3 is a game machine...why is it being packaged with a free movie and not a free game?

I understand Sony wants to sell Blu-ray movies and games, but that's a transition that won't eventually happen unless people BUY the system to begin with.

By electing to not upconvert PS1/PS2/DVD, Sony is saying it's 'Blu-ray or nothing'.

I think that's greedy and short-sighted. A system that costs $500-$600 can and should do more.

That's exactly it, but you're not comparing your correct fruits. :rolleyes:

oh please. bleem only worked with a handful of games. do you understand the concept of backwards compatibilty?

Do a little research. The core Bleemcast code worked with well over 95% of PS1 games, and was only restricted to a per game release because of legal pressures.

LOL! why do hd dvd supporters always twist the facts? well over 95% of games LOL!!! luckily for you, I did do my research. here's a link to the compatiblity of bleem with over 1000 PS1 games. the vast majority have some sort of graphics or audio problems or do not even play. is that what you consider working well?

Bleemcast compatibility list (http://www.whipassgaming.com/genesisreviews/Bleemcast/bleemcastcompatibility.htm)

its retarded that anyone would pick a half assed software based emulation solution like bleems over having embedded hardware.

For what it's worth, I never expected PS3 to work like Bleem since that's an emulator and PS3 has dedicated PS1/PS2 hardware.

In fact, I would never pay for an emulator or system that runs on emulation because emulation is always a work in progress and rarely even close to 100% reliable.

But what I did expect was the PS3 to intelligently scale the PS1/PS2 video output to 1080P and maybe do some texture smoothing like the PS2 did for PS1 games.

Sony has said it will remove the dedicated PS1/PS2 hardware as soon as it has emulation software running well (OK, now think Bleem).

In my opinion, that's a mistake driven by cost-cutting and will result in unhappy customers (unless the software is incredibly great).

Finally I'm not a HD DVD/MS supporter, but since Sony has 'said no' to upconverting I will need to seriously consider other movie/game platforms.

Finally I'm not a HD DVD/MS supporter, but since Sony has 'said no' to upconverting I will need to seriously consider other movie/game platforms. that may be the danger here is other educated consumers turn off on the PS3 as a movie player because of the lack of standard DVD upconversion.

It may sell more Blu-ray discs to the uneducated consumers, but the people most likely to buy a lot of Blu-ray movies and drive the attach rate up are the most likely to be affected.

Educated consumers probably already have a standard DVD upconversion solution in place...if they care to. This feature wasn't a factor in the XBox 360 roll-out, and I don't see it as one for the PS3. 'Educated consumers' probably would read up and find it highly likely, based on 360 and, more pertinent, PSP update histories and the fact that such features often get added post-launch. The rational 'educated' consumer will understand that no upscaling of DVD at launch is not the end of the world. They're buying it for the HD content, they understand that's what this generation of gear is about...I'd hope.

And Blu-ray is going to sell to those who know/care about HD content, not the 'undereducated'...the better question is, are there that many out there of them. If you're meaning 'early adopters' versus educated (those ARE two seperate things btw)...well, that's a non-issue for starters, these console players are commodified solutions for the masses.

Kosty:

You're trying to make an argument that simply isn't there. why would the lack of DVD upconverting affect the likelihood of someone wanting to use their PS3 as a playback device? the only way I can see a PS3 owner refusing to use their PS3 to play back BDs is if they ALREADY own another BD device. why don't we flip the scenario? what if your hd dvd player didn't upscale DVDs? would you have rejected your hd dvd player?

Kosty:

You're trying to make an argument that simply isn't there. why would the lack of DVD upconverting affect the likelihood of someone wanting to use their PS3 as a playback device? the only way I can see a PS3 owner refusing to use their PS3 to play back BDs is if they ALREADY own another BD device. why don't we flip the scenario? what if your hd dvd player didn't upscale DVDs? would you have rejected your hd dvd player?

I agree with your sentiments. With anecdotal experiences abound here, I might just add my own - the lack of sd upconversion certainly does not deter me, if true.

There seems to be a lot of unnecessary worrying for the masses here (esp from those who are so unpretentiously interested in the PS3).

It is kinda dissapointing that the PS3 won't upscale DVD's. However it isn't the end of the world.. Since I only have one HDMI connection on my TV and I will have the PS3 hooked up to it. It will be a pain to switch the HDMI cable every time I want to watch a DVD...

Kosty:

You're trying to make an argument that simply isn't there. why would the lack of DVD upconverting affect the likelihood of someone wanting to use their PS3 as a playback device? the only way I can see a PS3 owner refusing to use their PS3 to play back BDs is if they ALREADY own another BD device. why don't we flip the scenario? what if your hd dvd player didn't upscale DVDs? would you have rejected your hd dvd player?I have one HDMI connection into my front projector. I like having the one player do the job for both HD and upconverted SD. The SD upconversion ability convinced me to buy earlier than I would have and help me justifiy spending more money to buy the XA1 instead of the A1.

I know of at least three other people personally who decided to get off the fence and buy the HD DVD player because of the SD upconversion. The fact they could get better looking video from their existing collection sealed the deal for them. It should be a good sales point for the big box stores.

I hope other Blu-ray players as well as HD DVD players besides the PS3 will have this ability as I think it will encourage more peole to buy into HD shiny disc players.

let me rephrase my question: if your hd dvd player didn't upconvert sd dvd, would you have rejected your player and stayed with DVD exclusively instead? yes or no?

Myself personally no. But I think that it would have made a difference to my friends. And it would make a difference to some that are waiting for the G2 players.

I was actually under-estimating the level of upconversion capability of the HD DVD players. I would have bought one sooner if I knew how well it upconverts the DVDs. I was very pleasantly pleased. Because of my experience several other people bought a HD DVD player, and others had considered buying a PS3.

But I wanted a HD XA1 but I was unwilling to pay that initial price. I initially bought and used a HD A1 and RCA clone. Loved them, but wanted the build quality of the HD XA1 for CD playback. I now bought a HD XA1 through the AVS powerbuy. The upconversion capability helped justify that purchase expense to me.

The players are expensive, no matter how you determine it. The ability to convert your current SD DVD collection and all the available inventory of DVDs out there helps justify the expense. Most people don't have an upconverting DVD player, so a new HD player is a stepup both for upscaling SD and for playing HD. It also makes the lack of current titles and studio support less an issue.

It is kinda dissapointing that the PS3 won't upscale DVD's. However it isn't the end of the world.. Since I only have one HDMI connection on my TV and I will have the PS3 hooked up to it. It will be a pain to switch the HDMI cable every time I want to watch a DVD...

Just an FYI, HDMI switchers are available so you could integrate more than one HDMI
component into your system. I guess you still have to manually make the switch between inputs. Just a thought.

Regarding the PS3, perhaps Sony simply felt that most homes already have a dvd player, so no need for an upconverter in the PS3. They should not have overlooked this(if it's true), IMO. My concern is the AQ and PQ of the PS3. Will it be a standout Blu-Ray player that will easily compete with standalones?

Regarding the PS3, perhaps Sony simply felt that most homes already have a dvd player, so no need for an upconverter in the PS3.

but I think that lots of people just want to REPLACE the OLD DVD player with the NEW generation one with better performance - to keep things simple in their equipment rack

And

Most people don't have an upconverting DVD player, so a new HD player is a stepup both for upscaling SD and for playing HD. It also makes the lack of current titles and studio support less an issue.

fact of the matter is that the VAST majority of people don't care about upconverting DVDs players. go to any major electronics chain and see the ratio of upconverting to non upconverting players. the lack of upconversion is trivial to PS3s target demographic and those who DO care will not care enough to forgo its FREE BD playback capability.

fact of the matter is that the VAST majority of people don't care about upconverting DVDs players. go to any major electronics chain and see the ratio of upconverting to non upconverting players. the lack of upconversion is trivial to PS3s target demographic and those who DO care will not care enough to forgo its FREE BD playback capability.

I've worked high end and low to mid HT and electronics off and on for 7 years now. The reason most people don't care about upconversion players is because they don't own HDs, or if they do, they don't know anything about HD and don't even watch it on their set. This is the consumer base for PS3 and a strong argument for why it won't be viable force as a BD player. Any HD owner that is educated will favor a upconversion player over a standard DVD player, the benefits are clear. I'm quite sure that people were looking to replace their DVD playback solution with the PS3 as it has all the goodies to deliver, but isn't going to (for now). That is disappointing no matter how vigorous the spin cycle.

Very strange ofSony to deside this. If you buy the PS3 and want to display the full potensial of the box, you must have a 1080-display. So I can still upconvert my SDDVD on the projector or the LCD/ plasma.

I was really hoping that the PS3 could upconvert SDDVD because of the powerful Cell-prosessor - that I think would do a great job upconverting to 1080p.

Very dissapointing. I might buy the Xbox360 instead beacause of this.

And for those of you who ask questions of all the negative fuzz with the upconverting issue: Well Sony has for 2-3 years now claimed that the PS3 will be the ultimate multimedia machine ever. "This is not just a gaming-console", said Sony. Well now I think it IS just a gaming-machine :(

forceflow:

the reason why people don't buy upconverting players is because you dont see floor displays at major electronic retailers with upconverting dvd players showing what they can do. and if they do feature uconverting players, it is not obvious that the upconverting player is different from a standard player. people will NOT pay more money for something unless they can see a difference with their own eyes. I know about HD and I know all about upconverting players. yet I havent purchased one because I am not convinced that an upconverting player will do a better job than a TVs scaler. maybe I'm wrong, but until I walk into a store that has a dvd upconverted on a display tv, I wont even bother.

Upconverted DVD players have not been actively marketed. They have been on display, but their has been no advertising campaign for them.

HD DVD and Blu-ray, at least the PS3 will have active campaigns that will create consumer interest in them, and people will investigate the features. The HD players are expensive and the upconversion feature once people are aware of the capability can help justify the purchase. It certainly can help the word of mouth sales.

Not to go off-topic. But I am confused. Does the xbox 360 upconvert DVDs over component? VGA? Does it do a good job?

(I have a 53" Hitachi with only component in, and have not yet gotten an xbox 360 so I am curious)

Not that I want to be a pain, but you guys don't walk into mid to high end shops. Upconverting players have been displayed and shown all over Tweeter, ABT, and other high end chains in Chicago for a couple years now. If no one knew about them, or no one bought them, why would CE companies make them? :rolleyes:

Lets face it, the reason there is a Denon upconverting player and no a Denon BD/HD DVD player is because the upconverting market is real and consumers see a need to get one. In fact, all advice from pundits is to get an upconverting player until HD DVD or BD wins. This is how big of a deal upconverting players are to consumers. They will matter way more than HD DVD players or BD players combined for the next year or two until prices drop.

Whether you deny yourself the opportunity to test one out yourself or not, there is a noticeable difference. A TV scaler is weak, no doubt about it. I don't care if you have a Qualia 006, there are better scalers available in upconverting players.

Not to go off-topic. But I am confused. Does the xbox 360 upconvert DVDs over component? VGA? Does it do a good job?

VGA only. Don't have the 360, so I dunno of its upconverting quality. I assume it works like a HTPC, so I would definitely assume its middle of the road at best.

Well I will chime in here. With this move I ordered an Xbox 360.

I have an 1080p TV with 1080p over VGA (what the 360 upconverts over)

They have been pimping this thing as a media centerpiece and really, its just a BR player that plays games. If it doesnt upconvert SD DVD then you can forget any other format, mpeg, wmv etc. If it even supports playback of those it will be SD.

Some of you guys dont get it. Its $600. If you keep taking features away then it really is just a game system. You cant have it both ways.

If they were going to upgrade this via software, they would have said that. They lie about everything else.

VGA only. Don't have the 360, so I dunno of its upconverting quality. I assume it works like a HTPC, so I would definitely assume its middle of the road at best.

I don't know why you would say that HTPC had "middle of the road at best" upconversion capability. From what I have experienced and read from other people's experiences on the HTPC forum, they can be among the best (hold their own or better expensive, dedicated outboard scaler solutions), depending on how you configure the system.

That being said, I do have a 360 with VGA hooked up to my plasma and I would say the upconversion is pretty good (better than the TV definitely), but the HD A1 I think does a better job (subjective and may be slightly biased based on calibration differences in the analog vs digital inputs of my TV). However, I don't have the 360 HD DVD drive and it is possible that drive+playboack software does an even better job than the base 360 unit. The rumor I have heard from people that work on the drive+playback software is that they feel it does a better job at upconversion than the A1. So YMMV.

That being said, I do have a 360 with VGA hooked up to my plasma and I would say the upconversion is pretty good (better than the TV definitely), but the HD A1 I think does a better job (subjective and may be slightly biased based on calibration differences in the analog vs digital inputs of my TV). However, I don't have the 360 HD DVD drive and it is possible that drive+playboack software does an even better job than the base 360 unit. The rumor I have heard from people that work on the drive+playback software is that they feel it does a better job at upconversion than the A1. So YMMV.

Hm, I will have to keep that in mind, VGA -> Component transcoders aren't that much. I currently have an Onkyo 5-disc progressive and DVD playback on that is an improvement over the JVC 7-disc progressive that I previously had (although I lot DVD-A capability in the switch, no big deal). I am just not sure if the xbox 360 will do a better job then what I am getting now. The 360 is on the 'when I get the money' list for me right now...

apparently it can upscale now with the latest firmware.

its apparent that alot of people that posted in this thread liked to bash sony, and had their eyes closed.

I wonder how many people their lies effected. and now with firmware 1.8 did they go back to those people and say they were wrong. Seems like there was an organized effort to speard mis-information about the ps3. Just read the OP, no source, no link nothing.

and to top it off, the 360 didn't even get a 1.3 hdmi port that this thread said it would. The M$ fans errr, employees, run deep here.

still doesn't upscale games, don't think it has enough processing power or they would have enabled it already.

A proper deinterlacer to 480P is the best way to do this. Upscaling from 480P->768/1080 is something the display should be able to do better than the players. Unless the players really do handle 12bit/channel color, most likely any upscaling results is truncated back to 8 bits. Displays should be able to get more than 8 bits/channel in each pixel in the line buffer(s) used in the upscaling a lot cheaper than it can handle deinterlacing.

Displays otoh, don't necessarily do 480i deinterlacing properly. and only the extremely expensive ones are capable of 1080i->1080P deinterlacing (usually they just take the 540 lines per field and blow it up).

Otoh, no matter how you upscale, DVD is still lower native resolution, and not something you can go back to (even with the best upscaling) once you get used to HDM or HD-cable.

As for upscaling games. This is a bad thing. The effect is like running a 800x600 mode on a laptop screen capable of 1920x1200. You can get away with photographs and jpegs, but it blurs out details.

The worst thing would be a game capable of running in 1280x720@60 being actually updated at 60 fps being forced to 1920x1080i60, you end up downscaling vertically to 540 and upscaling horizontally to 1920 in field mode, and if the display resolution is 1366x768, then the reverse happens.

My choice is to send the actual native resolution (but deinterlaced at the source) of the video frames and have the display deal with it --- this is the best way to preserve the maximum detail and integity of the video signal as late as possible.