The Prestige

[Matt_Stevens]

Saw it last night in a tiny little theater in Jacksonville, NC. God, are there any good theaters in this state? Just got here and so far I want to kill myself! :(

Anyway, despite the DTS sound dropping out every two minutes or more, the film was exceptional. Mysterious, clever and always entertaining, I truly enjoyed this one. It gets a huge thumbs up from me.

[ssj2]

Agreed. I just saw this film. It was great, very engaging with just the right twists and turns.

[FredProgGH]

I'll tell you one thing, the people that greenlit that title should be shot. If I hadn't accidentally read what it was about I would have had zero interest. As it turns out, it sounds like something I'd really really like. Glad to hear good reviews.

[SbWillie]

B+ :D !

The theatre we watched it in was very subpar compared to Harkins (Dickinson!)

[mpalmieri1203]

This is an excellent film. I suggest that you purchase the book by Christopher Priest. It is excellent and different enough from the film to give you a new experience. A lot from the book was altered to create the same feeling but with completely different scenes. i think the trick in the book was more amazing do to the different take on the prestige "materials".

[lonwolf615]

This is good to hear.(the quality of the film, not the theater quality in NC). I've read only one review so far and it was negative, and I was thinking too bad, because the film sounded interesting. Now my interest is back-thanks Matt. This might be one of the rare films we see in a theater instead of at home.

[plain fan]

Just saw it and I would agree; a very enjoyable twisting film. At the end you will be playing it again in your head.

[tonybradley]

Great movie. One of the best I've seen in a long time. Although I guessed certain things early on, no way could I put it all together until the end.

[mkultra]

Tremendous movie...give Bale an oscar right now...he deserved one for Empire of the Sun ,American Psycho, and the Machinist!

Fun movie...needed a wee bit more Bowie perhaps

Bale is seriously underrated and underappreciated...he is one of the best actors of our time (and he can play the best Batman!)

[Gary McCoy]

I saw it last night with my buddies. A very entertaining film with a very unexpected "Victorian Science Fiction" plot element. Oddly enough we didn't discuss the film for very long afterwards, preferring to watch the final World Series game while discussing politics. This one is what it is - a straightforward and authentic costume drama with well-done plot, good acting, and an unforseen twist at the end.

Edit: Oddly enough, I did not recognize David Bowie in his role, although the face was familiar and I should have. At the time I just could not place him.

Gary

[madpoet]

Matt, you need to head over to the Raleigh area :)

[SbWillie]

Tremendous movie...give Bale an oscar right now...he deserved one for Empire of the Sun ,American Psycho, and the Machinist!

Fun movie...needed a wee bit more Bowie perhaps

Bale is seriously underrated and underappreciated...he is one of the best actors of our time (and he can play the best Batman!) :D :D :D

[Josh Z]

My wife figured out the twist regarding Bale's character about an hour in. She absolutely never picks up on things like that.

I didn't much care for the sci-fi elements at the end, but the movie prompted me to do some reading on Nikola Tesla, who it turns out was an even more bizarre personality in real life.

[Ron Temple]

Saw this yesterday with the wife. I also picked on the Bale twist early on, but the truly artful storytelling and interwoven clues/revelations create a very tasty tapestry. This movie will stick with me for a long time. Very entertaining with very good performances from the entire cast. I don't go to the movies much anymore, but this one was worth it.

[DOBE]

Nolan is a gifted director. Memento was a revelation. The Prestige is fun, entertaining, full of atmosphere and intimate in a foreign and exotic way.

I didn't really like any of the characters in the movie, except the one played by Caine. That usually means I won't like the film, but that wasn't the case here. The story intentionally keeps the viewer from identifying a winner, but that only added to the mystique and my enjoyment of this film.

Nolan enjoys the kind of cinematic sleight of hand that keeps an audience reeling. What's going to happen next? What the heck is going on here?

Both magic and movies add mystery to our everyday lives. Both catch us up for a moment. Neither should be fully explained.

And remember, the best explanation for a trick can be found in Occam's razor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_razor)

[Hughmc]

I saw this yesterday and I too was impressed. It has been a long while since I have seen a really good movie. Prestige restored my faith in Hollywood and temporarily negates my wanting Hollywood to take a sabbatical.

Finding out the twists still didn't explain it all to me or friends who discussed it with me in length.


So Bale was playing Jackman from the beginning and set him up the whole time? Bale had his double already since he was there when Jackman shot his fingers off?

[rezzy]

Saw this today; nice period-piece....a plot-twist with a twist-ending. Not totally original, but very refreshing nontheless. Though I didn't think Caine's character needed to do that review at the end; we got it the first time.

3.5 out of 5 stars

[tonybradley]

Has anyone seen the DVD? Hows the Audio and Picture Quality?

[FredProgGH]

Has anyone seen the DVD? Hows the Audio and Picture Quality?

Damn good.

[tonybradley]

Damn good.


Good to hear. I loved this movie and will be purchasing it on standard DVD this week.

[thehun]

Has anyone seen the DVD? Hows the Audio and Picture Quality?


The picture quality is excellent, no noise or compression artifacts. Spot on color, and contrast. It's refference quality. I can imagine the HD version[s] will look even better. Sound is rather flat and "muted", nothing like Nolan's Batman Begins. I'm sure it was by design. However dialog sounded "muffled" at times, and soundstage was narrow, like a mono track. It had a few momments though when it was needed however. Like others I kinda knew what's gonna happen, and yes "puffy face" was obvious too. Still worth a rental IMO.

[barhoram]

agree. Picture quality was one of the better recent SD DVDs lately. Highly recommended.

[randy5554]

Great movie! I had to turn up my center speaker a bit to clearly hear some of the speaking.

[wmcclain]

Saw it last night in a tiny little theater in Jacksonville, NC. God, are there any good theaters in this state? Just got here and so far I want to kill myself! :(

Anyway, despite the DTS sound dropping out every two minutes or more, the film was exceptional. Mysterious, clever and always entertaining, I truly enjoyed this one. It gets a huge thumbs up from me.

I'll dissent. Mystery + fantasy is a hard combination, because when anything is "possible", nothing is plausible. It's like writing an intricate story where in the end the little boy wakes up and it was all a dream.

Here we have about three impossible things happening to the same set of people at the same time.

Now: I agree it was clever to plot the movie as the three stages of a magic trick as explained at the outset, and the Nolan scrambled time tracks is always interesting. I also appreciate that they used a little bit more actual stage magic (with Ricky Jay!) than the recent THE ILLUSIONIST, which was all studio FX.

-Bill

[kevinp8192]

Great movie! I had to turn up my center speaker a bit to clearly hear some of the speaking.I had this problem too, and it was the first time since we built our dedicated room two years ago that I've noticed a low center speaker volume.

But it did NOT detract from the movie, and in fact, the extract loudness serves it well. Instead of just turning up the center, and I just pumped up the main volume to great effect. Sound was great. I loved it.

[spyder696969]

Good movie, but the ending was extremely predictable. Made for a pretty boring last 45+ minutes knowing exactly how it would end. They should have not made any comments about the hats and just had Hugh give them a puzzled look as he went by, thus alluding to "something" rather than spelling it out so clearly. :(

[mrhan]

Good movie, but the ending was extremely predictable. Made for a pretty boring last 45+ minutes knowing exactly how it would end. They should have not made any comments about the hats and just had Hugh give them a puzzled look as he went by, thus alluding to "something" rather than spelling it out so clearly. :(

I felt the same way. The first 2 acts it was straight up about magic but then it became a sci-fi movie. I think it should of stayed with the magic aspect throughout. Overall, it was entertaining.

[jkirk]

Maybe my expectations were too high after reading the comparisons with the Illusionist but I thought the movie was just ok. Agree about the sound level - even after adjusting the center channel it was hard to hear voices. I enjoyed the side story about Tesla and Edison and the very dramatic use of some of his equipment; great stuff. The emotional range of the actors used in the film was pretty small; there were several places that had potential for emotional involvement but it just wasn't there. All in all, too much suspension of disbelief for me. I much preferred the Illusionist. Norton on stage was just captivating.

[markeetaux]

I thought the movie was very good. I had no problem with the sound track and the picture
quality was very good. The only disappointment I felt was how totally different the story
line was from that of the book. It's obviously impossible to tell the same story in just two hours, however, the ending, beginning and much of the middle of the movie was so removed from what I was expecting to see that I must admit I was surprised and some what disappointed. That being said, I still like the movie. Not as much as 'The Illusionist' but
with Caine, Bale, Johansson and Jackman all putting on strong performances, it was hard not to be entertained.

[Rutgar]

I thought the movie was very good. I had no problem with the sound track and the picture
quality was very good. The only disappointment I felt was how totally different the story
line was from that of the book. It's obviously impossible to tell the same story in just two hours, however, the ending, beginning and much of the middle of the movie was so removed from what I was expecting to see that I must admit I was surprised and some what disappointed. That being said, I still like the movie. Not as much as 'The Illusionist' but
with Caine, Bale, Johansson and Jackman all putting on strong performances, it was hard not to be entertained.


I agree. I also liked "The Illusionist" bettter as well.

[Tenkaipalm]

I loved it. Adding it to my collection of magic movies (Shade, Lord of the illusions, Eternally Yours, and the Illusionist). It's one of the few movies that I actually liked better than the book.

[Ron Temple]

While I enjoyed The Illusionist and The Prestige, I found the later more fulfilling and ambitious...possibly for a couple of reasons.

1) I saw TP on the big screen and TI on DVD, though this shouldn't have effected me except subconsciuosly.

2) TI was adapted from a short story, a romantic fantasy. Well adapted, it probably got all the content and thus may seem tighter and more complete. TP, adapted from the novel, like most, was just an interpretation. A good one I take it, though disappointing for some. Much darker material, much deeper, that focuses on the 2 characters obsessed competition. Neither Batman or Wolverine were likeable and yet I was fascinated by the characters. Sure, some of it was telegraphed early, but still very entertaining and much more multi-layered. If you were unaware of the book, as I was, you don't miss the looked for content and the story seems complete (though totally unbelievable).

[rockbottom16]

i did not understand this movie. top notch performances all around but wtf?

how did christian bale escape from being hung? it was not revealed. what a gyp.

[Cain]

You guys should see the BD on this movie, it is incredible.

[Wytchone]

While I enjoyed The Illusionist and The Prestige,

Pretty much sums it up for me. I think which ever one of these movies you see first colors you on the other. Both are Fine movies just different. Better Actors in the Prestige but I enjoyed The Illusionist more.

[Brajesh]

Same here; liked 'The Illusionist' more. Maybe I need to re-watch 'The Prestige', but it left me kind of unsatisfied. With the 'The Illusionist', the way Giamanti's character figures things out at the end, you can appreciate that it was all an illusion. With the 'The Prestige', don't you have to buy the fact that the damn machine is a magic machine? Seems like cheating to me.

[IAM4UK]

Just watched "The Prestige," and I enjoyed it, but not nearly as much as I had hoped. I appreciated the expert storytelling and the fine acting (and SJ's outfits), but I could not buy the central premise that allowed the plot to proceed as it did. Tesla's cloning machine was just too ridiculous and phyically impossible.

[dapdrums]

Ok, I feel stupid, but could someone answer these questions for me.


Did the guy really hang at the end? I would think he did.

So a clone was created and drowned every night? Hence the blind stage hands?

[wmcclain]

Ok, I feel stupid, but could someone answer these questions for me.

Yes and Yes.

High body count film. Including the wives.

-Bill

[IAM4UK]

... could someone answer these questions for me.


So a clone was created and drowned every night? Hence the blind stage hands?


You've got it as I understood it, almost. How I saw it: For each performance of the "Real Transported Man," a clone was created, and that clone appeared in the balcony to astonish the audience. The performer on stage fell through the trapdoor and into the tank, then drowned. Thus we must accept that Tesla's machine created exact duplicates, including all memories and life experiences. Bale's character had experienced this once, well before the action in the movie began. That's why he claimed that for his greatest trick, only he would be able to perform it. He and his clone had been living their charade for years. The clue ("TESLA") he gave his rival was actually meaningful, and not just a dodge.

[dapdrums]

You've got it as I understood it, almost. How I saw it: For each performance of the "Real Transported Man," a clone was created, and that clone appeared in the balcony to astonish the audience. The performer on stage fell through the trapdoor and into the tank, then drowned. Thus we must accept that Tesla's machine created exact duplicates, including all memories and life experiences. Bale's character had experienced this once, well before the action in the movie began. That's why he claimed that for his greatest trick, only he would be able to perform it. He and his clone had been living their charade for years. The clue ("TESLA") he gave his rival was actually meaningful, and not just a dodge.
[QUOTE=IAM4UK]You've got it as I understood it, almost. How I saw it:
On night 1 of 100 night run, he would have had to make the choice to kill himself and let the clone survive then. Wow!!! From night 2 on... a clone was created and a clone was killed.

This really disputes the Michael Keaton movie "multiplicity". Keaton's character claimed that a "Copy of a copy is never as good", but 100 days into the act, the clones weren't any dumber. :) Man, no wonder the Industrial Revolution grew out of the Victorian period. Those Victorian's knew what they were doing!

[tonybradley]

..........


You should put a spoiler tags around that as you just went into detail on another spoiler tag. Shame Shame.

[IAM4UK]

On night 1 of 100 night run, he would have had to make the choice to kill himself and let the clone survive then. Wow!!! From night 2 on... a clone was created and a clone was killed.

I spoiler-tagged that, because I think it's a huge spoiler. But I also disagree with part of it:
The final shot of the movie suggests that the first performance differed from the following ones. He didn't kill himself. A clone was on stage and a new clone was created on the balcony for each subsequent performance, and the on-stage clone was sacrificed. The man in the final image of the film was the original, not a clone, IMHO.

[rbmcgee]

I really wanted to like this movie, but thought it was almost a complete mess. My first question,

Jackman seems very interested to know what kind of knot Bale tied around his wife's hands. Bale seems very sincere when convincing Jackman that he doesn't remember.

Were both Jackman and Bale lying and did both know the other one was lying?

[FredProgGH]

You've got it as I understood it, almost. How I saw it: For each performance of the "Real Transported Man," a clone was created, and that clone appeared in the balcony to astonish the audience. The performer on stage fell through the trapdoor and into the tank, then drowned. Thus we must accept that Tesla's machine created exact duplicates, including all memories and life experiences. Bale's character had experienced this once, well before the action in the movie began. That's why he claimed that for his greatest trick, only he would be able to perform it. He and his clone had been living their charade for years. The clue ("TESLA") he gave his rival was actually meaningful, and not just a dodge.

To make it even more interesting, Jackman's character said that he never knew if he would be the one in the balcony or in the tank. So apparently, it was random. He might live and perform the trick again- or he might die, and a new "him" took over and continued to perform the trick, facing the same dilemma. On the other hand, Bale's character only ever made one clone and performed the trick as an illusion. Then, finally, the duplicate was hung and, one assumes, the "real" him survived...

[IAM4UK]

I really wanted to like this movie, but thought it was almost a complete mess. My first question,

Jackman seems very interested to know what kind of knot Bale tied around his wife's hands. Bale seems very sincere when convincing Jackman that he doesn't remember.

Were both Jackman and Bale lying and did both know the other one was lying?
My interpretation related to this question:
The Bale character that didn't remember what knot was tied was sincere, because he wasn't the one that tied it. In fact, the one who tied it was not involved in the previous discussion about why a certain knot shouldn't be used.

[dapdrums]

You should put a spoiler tags around that as you just went into detail on another spoiler tag. Shame Shame.

Sorry. Oh yes, to anyone who hasn't seen the movie yet. The dog dies at the end.

[tonybradley]

To make it even more interesting, Jackman's character said that he never knew if he would be the one in the balcony or in the tank. So apparently, it was random. He might live and perform the trick again- or he might die, and a new "him" took over and continued to perform the trick, facing the same dilemma. On the other hand, Bale's character only ever made one clone and performed the trick as an illusion. Then, finally, the duplicate was hung and, one assumes, the "real" him survived...


I am going to have to watch this again. When I saw it at the theater, I assumed Bale's other character was a twin brother, not a clone. A friend of mine said at the end, Bale even told Jackman that he had a twin. I don't remember that, but will need to watch again. The device Tesla made for Bale was not a cloning device as if it was, he wouldn't have screwed up so many times making it for Jackman's character. I can't remember the timeline of when Bale lost his finger, but if cloned after that, his clone wouldn't have had a finger either. Again, I can't recall timelines, but I did not come to the conclusion that Bale cloned himself too.

[rbmcgee]

But when the wife falls out of the tank, she falls into the arms of Jackman, with her hands still tied. Does Jackman not notice, nor think to check what the knot was? Since the knot conversation tool place with Jackman present, wouldn't he have checked the knot to determine why the wife couldn't escape? My first thought was - the knot! Since rope doesn't disintegrate, someone eventually untied the knot. Not Jackman? Why doesn't Jackman ask whoever untied the knot?

The mystery of which knot could not have been a mystery to Jackman, and Bale (either one) would have known that.

[dapdrums]

I am going to have to watch this again. When I saw it at the theater, I assumed Bale's other character was a twin brother, not a clone. A friend of mine said at the end, Bale even told Jackman that he had a twin. I don't remember that, but will need to watch again. The device Tesla made for Bale was not a cloning device as if it was, he wouldn't have screwed up so many times making it for Jackman's character. I can't remember the timeline of when Bale lost his finger, but if cloned after that, his clone wouldn't have had a finger either. Again, I can't recall timelines, but I did not come to the conclusion that Bale cloned himself too.


Bale's other character was indeed a twin, and not a clone.

...I still wonder if Bale really got hung or if he somehow escaped, walking into the hanging room he was so calm, even saying "are you watching closely". Then, prior to the floor giving way, he said "abracadabra". He was just way too calm about it.

I wonder if Michael Cain was in cahoots with Bale. When he showed up to get his kid, Cain was almost expecting him. Not to mention them passing each other in the street right before Bale killed Jackman.

[sdurani]

I assumed Bale's other character was a twin brother, not a clone.That's what I thought too, a life-long commitment they had made to be one person in public. Their personalities seemed different enough that I dismissed the idea that one of them was a copy from the Tesla machine. Didn't Bale even admit to Jackson at the end that he had/was a twin brother?Sanjay

[rbmcgee]

That's what I thought too, a life-long commitment they had made to be one person in public. Their personalities seemed different enough that I dismissed the idea that one of them was a copy from the Tesla machine. Didn't Bale even admit to Jackson at the end that he had/was a twin brother?Sanjay
Bale's "twin" must have been a clone or another huge chunk of this movie doesn't make sense, ie, everyone (Jackman, Bale, Tesla, Gollum) seems to agree that Bale had used an invention of Tesla's in the past. If the other Bale was a twin, what did Tesla have to do with Bale?

[FredProgGH]

Looks like we all have to watch it again now *lol*

[IAM4UK]

For those of us debating whether Bordon (Bale) had a twin or a clone,
here's a thead on that very topic over at Rotten Tomatoes: http://www.rottentomatoes.com/vine/showthread.php?t=515252
For others, beware spoilers there...

[FredProgGH]

OK, they make a convincing argument that I was wrong. I need to watch again for sure now!

BTW, does anyone else think that this is clearly how David Copperfield accomplishes his illusions where he vanishes and reappears instantly hundreds of feet away? I've thought that for years... if so it's a damn well kept secret, but then it would be, wouldn't it!

[rbmcgee]

Methinks Chris Nolan is too cute by half and ends up confusing himself.

[FredProgGH]

Methinks Chris Nolan is too cute by half and ends up confusing himself.
Maybe. At least he has a track record of making films that are worth having a discussion over! My problem with The Illusionist is that it set up a(n un??) reality and then yanked the rug out at the end, trying to provide a mundane explanation for effects that simply could never have looked the way they were presented in the film. I think The Prestige however, even though it includes a lot of fantastic elements and could be considered a bit confusing, is internally logical and consistent.

[dapdrums]

BTW, does anyone else think that this is clearly how David Copperfield accomplishes his illusions where he vanishes and reappears instantly hundreds of feet away? I've thought that for years... if so it's a damn well kept secret, but then it would be, wouldn't it!

Yes, David Copperfield, in the late 80s, toured with the band Tesla, who built him a similar machine. Signs, signs, everywhere signs...

[FredProgGH]

Yes, David Copperfield, in the late 80s, toured with the band Tesla, who built him a similar machine. Signs, signs, everywhere signs...

*lol* I meant the OTHER explanation :D

[Josh Z]

Bale's "twin" must have been a clone or another huge chunk of this movie doesn't make sense, ie, everyone (Jackman, Bale, Tesla, Gollum) seems to agree that Bale had used an invention of Tesla's in the past. If the other Bale was a twin, what did Tesla have to do with Bale?

The earlier machine that Tesla made for Bale was simply a Van de Graaff generator that created lots of lightning sparks to look impressive on stage. However, because he couldn't figure out the trick, Jackman was convinced that Tesla had built a real teleporter. In trying to follow through and actually make a teleporter, Tesla wound up building a cloning device.

[rbmcgee]

The earlier machine that Tesla made for Bale was simply a Van de Graaff generator that created lots of lightning sparks to look impressive on stage. However, because he couldn't figure out the trick, Jackman was convinced that Tesla had built a real teleporter. In trying to follow through and actually make a teleporter, Tesla wound up building a cloning device.
Am I misremembering this ... I did not notice any sparks with Bale's trick. Simply 2 closets and a rubber ball. I thought Jackman added the sparks.

[sdurani]

If the other Bale was a twin, what did Tesla have to do with Bale?Both Bale and Jackman attended Tesla's exhibition. Tesla ended up making a machine for Bale that was simply a prop, a lightshow if you will.

Bale's journal sent Jackman to Tesla on a wild goose chase, a distraction. And it worked, because Jackman refused to believe the simple truth about how Bale did the trick.

If Bale actually knew about a machine that could make a copy of him, then why was he running around backstage to find out how The Great Danton (Jackman) pulled off the trick and why would he ask his brother "why can't you out-think him"?

Besides, Bale would have been too poor that early on in the story for him to have afforded to buy a machine from Tesla. Sanjay

[dapdrums]

Why did no one think to cloan Scarlet Johanson 30 or 40 times! :)

[IAM4UK]

Am I misremembering this ... I did not notice any sparks with Bale's trick. Simply 2 closets and a rubber ball. I thought Jackman added the sparks.
You remember correctly, but miss a key point, I think. The trick you reference did involve simply what you state; however, Bale already had a twin or clone (I vote clone) by the time he was doing his trick. No sparks needed, no new clone, no drowning, etc. He was not the "showman" Jackman was.

[rbmcgee]

You remember correctly, but miss a key point, I think. The trick you reference did involve simply what you state; however, Bale already had a twin or clone (I vote clone) by the time he was doing his trick. No sparks needed, no new clone, no drowning, etc. He was not the "showman" Jackman was.
That's exactly my point. If it was a twin, then what did Tesla have to do with the trick. It was not a lightshow, as claimed by Josh and Sanjay as there was no lightshow whatsoever when Bale first starts performing the trick ("the greatest trick I ever saw", as Jackman claims).

The first time we see Bale perform the trick is Ch. 12, approx. 53 minute mark. No lights, no sparks, no show. 2 closets, 1 rubber ball.

[sdurani]

Bob,

Not at first, but when it moves to the Pantages.

BTW, as much as I liked the 'The Illusionist', this film really has much more potential for after-movie discussion.

Sanjay

[rbmcgee]

Bob,

Not at first, but when it moves to the Pantages.

Sanjay
I will then repeat what I said before,

Bale's "twin" must have been a clone or another huge chunk of this movie doesn't make sense, ie, everyone (Jackman, Bale, Tesla, Gollum) seems to agree that Bale had used an invention of Tesla's in the past. If the other Bale was a twin, what did Tesla have to do with Bale?
A lightshow, well after the trick was invented and shown, does not satisfy my issue.
The only way the whole Tesla/Bale connection makes sense is if Bale used Tesla's machine to create a clone and then used the clone, rather than a twin, to create the trick. Of course, that brings up many other issues not the least of which is explaining why Tesla has trouble with Jackman's machine and why he seemed surprised at the cloning aspect.
I still think Nolan either confused himself or simply didn't care about the consistency of the plot

BTW, I'm still very confused about the whole 'knot' issue.

[IAM4UK]

So, my impression of this movie is solidified, based on the kind of fun discussion going on here: Expert storytelling, fine acting, but a central plot point that is just too much to accept.

[rockbottom16]

anyhow bottom line is this movie was excessively contrived and manipulative which ended up overshadowing it's great set production and fine performances.

[sdurani]

The only way the whole Tesla/Bale connection makes sense is if Bale used Tesla's machine to create a clone and then used the clone, rather than a twin, to create the trick.The connection is simpler than that: after a little financial success, Bale was able buy a prop from Tesla. Nothing more complicated. Of course, that brings up many other issues not the least of which is explaining why Tesla has trouble with Jackman's machine and why he seemed surprised at the cloning aspect.Exactly. If Tesla had already made one machine previously, he would not have had trouble making a second one. If his previous machine actually made copies, he would not have been surprised that the new one did. I still think Nolan either confused himself or simply didn't care about the consistency of the plot

BTW, I'm still very confused about the whole 'knot' issue.I don't know if you ever saw 'Memento', but Nolan doesn't strike me as the type that would be easily confused or not care about plot consistencies. Quite the opposite in fact.

What about the knot issue do you find confusing (use spoiler tags if needed).

Sanjay

[rbmcgee]

What about the knot issue do you find confusing (use spoiler tags if needed).

Sanjay
I first entered this thread with this question (page 2):
I really wanted to like this movie, but thought it was almost a complete mess. My first question,

Jackman seems very interested to know what kind of knot Bale tied around his wife's hands. Bale seems very sincere when convincing Jackman that he doesn't remember.

Were both Jackman and Bale lying and did both know the other one was lying?
I then followed-up with:
But when the wife falls out of the tank, she falls into the arms of Jackman, with her hands still tied. Does Jackman not notice, nor think to check what the knot was? Since the knot conversation tool place with Jackman present, wouldn't he have checked the knot to determine why the wife couldn't escape? My first thought was - the knot! Since rope doesn't disintegrate, someone eventually untied the knot. Not Jackman? Why doesn't Jackman ask whoever untied the knot?

The mystery of which knot could not have been a mystery to Jackman, and Bale (either one) would have known that.

[sdurani]

Does Jackman not notice, nor think to check what the knot was?Not when the most important person in his life was literally dying in his arms. And maybe not even later, until seeing Bale at the funeral reminded him of he backstage conversation. The mystery of which knot could not have been a mystery to Jackman, and Bale (either one) would have known that.The knot was a spur of the moment thing. The Bale at the funeral may not have known which knot was tied because he didn't tie it. I don't think it's anything more mysterious than that. Sanjay

[srw1000]

Maybe. At least he has a track record of making films that are worth having a discussion over! My problem with The Illusionist is that it set up a(n un??) reality and then yanked the rug out at the end, trying to provide a mundane explanation for effects that simply could never have looked the way they were presented in the film. I think The Prestige however, even though it includes a lot of fantastic elements and could be considered a bit confusing, is internally logical and consistent.I took the opposite opinion. The Prestige depends on the viewer accepting a scientific impossibility for the time, while The Illusionist is clearly told from the point of view of one of the characters. The grandness (impossibility) of the effects are a result of that character's faulty, subjective memories.

Scott

[srw1000]

I also felt that Bordon had abrother because they were two distinct characters. Sarah could easily tell the difference (some days her husband really loved her, others she didn't), the brothers loved two different women, etc. While each clone of Angier had the exact same motivations, thoughts, and feelings.Say, did anyone else notice a resemblance between Fallon andTony Clifton? Maybe it seems odd, but that was the first thing I thought of when I saw him appear. It was kind of a tip-off about the impostor (minus the brother part, anyway).Scott

[rbmcgee]

Sanjay,

Sorry, not buying it. I think this movie was a mess from a plot perspective.

[AnthonyP]

it was a twin.

1) if Tesla new his machine could clone then the whole "guy runs into cats and hats" (such a machine would not nneed to be built) does not make sense

2) what was the second axiom? the turn. Tesla was an illusion, it was used to misdirect and send the guy out of the country on a wild goose chase. Don't forgrt one of the Bales knew exactly what was happening.

-------
here are my issues

1) the two guys were friends and worked together. How did he not know Bale had a (twin) brother? was Bale using the twin for other reasons -steal magic tricks- and his plan changed after the death?

2) why did Cain help Bale at the end? I can understand he was discusted with the trick and maybe fealt used, but helping Bale to kill Jackman?

[spyder696969]

Hoo boy, this is getting ridiculous. The answers are pretty simple if you pay close attention to the film. I'll leave you with some hints:
1. The title is very telling
2. In conjunction with #1, it's all about the oft-referred to "man in the box"
3. The reactions to the bird cage trick
4. Tesla and Edison's relationship isn't just in the film for fun or filler
(This may help: http://www.answers.com/topic/nikola-tesla)
5. Check out the makeup scene with Bale and his whatever you decide the other guy is
6. The knot was not for naught :)

[IAM4UK]

Alright, Spyder, I'm intrigued by your insights. Your clues lead me to believe that reading your explicit conclusions about the mysteries of this story would be fascinating. Care to share?

[spyder696969]

I'd like for others to try to solve the supposed riddles on their own before giving it all away. Let's see where this goes for a bit. :)

Don't think for a moment that I deem my interpretation of the film to be 100% accurate or superior in the minds of all men, rather, it is a solution that works without much doubt for me and seems to be spelled out quite specifically through various creative tools often employed by writers and poets. The clues are out there...tell me how the trick is done. ;)

[rbmcgee]

The Sting is one of my favorite movies of all time. The complexity of the composition is what makes it so enjoyable to me. On one hand, you've got Newman/Redford/Walston/etc/etc playing a con on Robert Shaw. This is what gives the movie purpose and plot. On the other hand, you've got the director (GRH), the writer (DSW), the characters, the dialog and the settings existing as props to play a con on the viewer.

GRH gives you just enough to keep you focused on the Shaw con while at the same time, keeping just enough from you so that you are unaware that the real con is being played on you.

I can't help feeling that something similar is being attempted by Nolan in this movie. Are we watching a movie or are we watching a magic trick being performed on us?

I've tried to understand the movie itself in terms of 'the pledge', 'the turn' and 'the prestige', however, I still don't get it. If I don't understand what the trick even was, then why would I care how it was done?

[sdurani]

I can't help feeling that something similar is being attempted by Nolan in this movie.You're starting to sound like Jackman's character: convinced that Bale's trick is more complicated than it actually is, not willing to believe the simple answer that others tell him throughout the film.

Likewise, the movie has a couple of plot twists but isn't anywhere near as complex as you're determined to believe it is; especially the plot, which is fairly straightforward. I agree with spyder696969, it's pretty simple if you pay attention.

Sanjay

[srw1000]

I'd like for others to try to solve the supposed riddles on their own before giving it all away. Let's see where this goes for a bit. :)

Don't think for a moment that I deem my interpretation of the film to be 100% accurate or superior in the minds of all men, rather, it is a solution that works without much doubt for me and seems to be spelled out quite specifically through various creative tools often employed by writers and poets. The clues are out there...tell me how the trick is done. ;)This was a rental for me, and the memory is starting to fade. If you have new answers or perspectives, can you share them soon, before the details are lost?

I don't think I missed anything, but you never know.

Scott

[MichaelDorsey]

Have any of you read the book? I'm readingit know and there are major changes from in the movie. Like how the book is set in the present day. Like Angier isn't married. Etc. Anyway, I'm about halfway through it and it is really a good read so far, so you may want to check it out if the movie is leaving you puzzled.

[DaveFi]

I just watched it and thought the best trick of all was Hugh Jackman's dissapearing British accent.:D

[IrmoGamecoq]

I watched this over the weekend and agree with others that The Illusionist was the better film.

Despite subject matter that is right up my alley (sci-fi, magic, mystery, illusions, Scarlett Johanssan's cleavage, etc) I found myself fighting to stay awake here.

Anyway, as for the mysteries:someone posted above that Jackman's character didn't know whether it would be him or a clone each night falling into the tank. I disagree, he did know...each time he was killing a clone of himself that had been made previously.

Remember all of his initial disgust at "killing doves," well by the end of the movie, his madness and ambition to beat Bale drove him far beyond killing doves, he was willing to kill human beings, albeit clones of himself.

The movie was about the fall of the "great danton" who was revealed as a selfish man obsessed with surpassing Bale.

I do feel that Bale's stumbling upon that "murder" was incidental and not a grand setup, but I might be able to be convinced otherwise. I just don't see the evidence for it.

[MichaelDorsey]

[QUOTE=IrmoGamecoq]I watched this over the weekend and agree with others that The Illusionist was the better film.

Despite subject matter that is right up my alley (sci-fi, magic, mystery, illusions, Scarlett Johanssan's cleavage, etc) I found myself fighting to stay awake here....

... well I agree that it is a flawed movie, but you are way off....


: If you remember, the machine didn't transport the hat (or the cat, or Danton) it made an exact copy that appeared somewhere else. Danton killed himself the first time he did the trick and every night afterward he killed a clone of himself and a copy of the clone lived (appearing in the balcony). So each night Danton was a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy.
.

[IrmoGamecoq]

... well I agree that it is a flawed movie, but you are way off....


: If you remember, the machine didn't transport the hat (or the cat, or Danton) it made an exact copy that appeared somewhere else. Danton killed himself the first time he did the trick and every night afterward he killed a clone of himself and a copy of the clone lived (appearing in the balcony). So each night Danton was a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy.
.

Yes, I agree that the machine was making a clone of him but we are not shown that being done *during the act.* Instead, we see the clone/him drop into a tank where it is drowned. Remember the look of surprise on his face while he was in the tank? He didn't know that would happen.

So it seems to me that he is making the clone in advance, having it perform the first 2 parts of the act, and then he himself enjoys the glory of "The prestige."

Remember earlier in the movie when he was using his look-alike, he didn't enjoy having to endure the "Prestige" while underneath the stage.

His Tesla solution allowed him The Prestige while eliminating his clone by drowning him in the tank. Danton was a selfish man that moved from being unwilling to kill doves for his act, to that of killing men (albeit his own clones) for the thrill of "The Prestige."

[Aliens]

I'd agree with this.

...the machine was making a clone of him but we are not shown that being done *during the act.* Instead, we see the clone drop into a tank where it is drowned.

So it seems to me that he is making the clone in advance, having it perform the first 2 parts of the act, and then he himself enjoys the glory of "The prestige."

[spyder696969]

NOW you guys are getting somewhere! Good to see the title didn't escape completely.

Things to consider:

1. The clones apparently retained all memories that the originals had.

2. Jackman's speech in the final scene about knowingly climbing into the box every night.

3. The relationship between Tesla/Edison being in the story.

4. The circuitous references to the knot.

[PDPnNJ]

I love movies that inspire some kind of debate afterwards. So many plausible angles. Great storytelling. We need more of this kind :)

[FredProgGH]

Ok.

The problem I have with the idea of Jackman creating the clone beforehand is that you then have to convince that clone to sacrifice his life. You can't trick him. He knows everything the original knows. He knows he's going into the tank. I can't believe Jackman's copy is so devoted to his craft that he would willingly do that, especially no doubt believing he is as deserving of the moment of Prestige as the original. I got the definite impression the clone was created during the trick. One goes to the balcony. One little piggy stays home. the survivor doesn't know if he is the original or the copy; it doesn't matter though because in seconds he is the only one and the distinction is moot. And at what point would the clone be created beforehand? If it is done before the performance the subterfuge can be discovered- far better to do it during the trick. Also, the Tesla machine is shown to have teleportation properties. Finally, I still don't think Jackman has the stomach for that sort of premeditated murder. Killing the clone more or less at the moment of its "conception" would be an easier way out for him.

I HAVE to see this again now that I have all these points to look for in my head! :D

[Aliens]

I think duplicate better describes what occurs, not cloning. Jackman has to have experimented with the machine on more than one occasion before going in front of a large audience to be sure it was capable of duplicating a human. I can’t believe he would have taken the hats and the cat as the only proof that the machine duplicates, and then risk his career by trying it with a human for the first time on stage. Too many things to be worked out to assure the act went accordingly.

Knowing failures can happen, would Jackman risk his own life night after night knowing when the trap door opens it means drowning? The duplicating never occurs on stage because the trap door opens before it can take place. The water tank is placed under the machine after the performance has started, thus the duplicate isn’t aware of his impending doom. Why would the original Jackman show shock and panic when he fell into the tank? A duplicate doesn’t mean mental telepathy, so Jackman could arrange anything he wanted without the duplicate being aware (see below). The Prestige is the most important thing for Jackman - it is what he lived for. Don’t forget; killing Bale was premeditated, even if it was his twin.



Jackman's speech in the final scene about knowingly climbing into the box every night.


Was he being honest when he said this or was he deceiving Bale?


The clones apparently retained all memories that the originals had.


We don’t know what the duplicate retains. Does his memory start at the point of duplication or does it retain everything? Like a lot of movies everything isn’t definitive, it is left up to the viewer to unravel what he has seen and make the call as he sees fit. We’ve seen enough movies to know plausibility isn’t the highest criteria when making a film. Until I watch this again I’m not sure I can say anything definitive. But at this point I’m going with what I’ve written. :D

[Static Wick]

Great movie, I have to watch it again.

[IrmoGamecoq]

Remember:

The duplicate/clone/whatever had a particularly SURPRISED look on his face when he landed in the tank. Why would he look surprised if he knew it was coming?

Also, it's a huge plot point that Jackman was concerned about "killing doves" early in his career. This has to have meaning, and the only meaning that can be explained is that he was driven to actually kill another human being as part of his act.

Jackman was all about "The Prestige." Why, considering what we know of his selfish and obsessed nature would drive him to give "The Prestige" to, in effect, someone else? Nothing, as far as I'm concerned. He would rather enjoy the glory all himself.

I also agree with the "he tried it out before the act" point that was brought above by Aliens. Of COURSE, he tried it out, thereby creating a duplicate/clone. At that point, he thought, "hmmm, what to do with this clone?" What to do indeed.

[IrmoGamecoq]

Btw, watching this movie on the same weekend as "The Departed" brought about some interesting comparisons between the two, particularly involving the two protagonists, Bale/Jackman and Damon/Dicaprio.

My impression was: There was seperation between good and evil between the two (i.e. Bale/Dicaprio=good, Jackman/Damon=evil). Obviously not ALL evil nor ALL good with either (they all did some good and some evil) but it boiled down to that with each for me. Damon was evil and self-serving and even shown as somewhat "disfunctional" (the post-bedroom scene) while Jackman is shown as descending to evil based on his obsession with getting "even" with Bale after the death of his wife. Just like Damon, his ambition caused him to commit evil deeds in the course of the story; whereas Bale, like Dicaprio, was shown in the end as having followed a more righteous path.

[Aliens]

I forgot to mention the most important thing...

Having the audience believe he is teleporting every night IS the illusion.

[Ron Temple]

As Jackman is dying, there's a mini-recap showing his first duplication and and his shooting of the clone

My take is that it's always the performing Danton going into the box. The look of shock is that he hasn't transported. The dup gets the prestige, but isn't sure if he's the original or not...he's exactly the same with the same memories...also he's not a totally happy camper, cuz he's gonna drown tomorrow night. It's a total commitment/sacrifice to the trick/art and his plan of revenge. Once he get's Bordon, he plans on destroying the machine.

[Aliens]

My take is that it's always the performing Danton going into the box. The look of shock is that he hasn't transported.

No object in the machine is ever transported. Only a duplicate of the object in the machine is transported. Don’t forget; the hats all remained in the machine after the experiments. Same for the cat. When Jackman left the lab was when he noticed the pile of hats and the extra cat and realized what was happening.

[IrmoGamecoq]

No object in the machine is ever transported. Only a duplicate of the object in the machine is transported. Don’t forget; the hats all remained in the machine after the experiments. Same for the cat. When Jackman left the lab was when he noticed the pile of hats and the extra cat and realized what was happening.

Exactly.

I still don't understand the look of shock on his face if he knew what was going to happen going in. It's only explained if:

1- It's not a look of surprise/shock and we all misread it.

2-The look of shock is because he was a dupe/clone and didn't know he would fall into a water-trap (I agree with this).

3-The look of shock/surprise is for another reason - perhaps shock at seeing Bale/Bordon next to the watertrap (this is a weak explanation IMO - mostly because it doesn't jive with the accompanying explanation that Danton was "setting up" Bale/Bordon).

[lonwolf615]

One other thing about good and evil"

The twins Bale plays seem to also be different. One is obssesed by magic as much as Jackman's character, and willing to do anything to maintain the illusion. The other shares the desire to be the best but his primary motivation is his wife and family. Hence how Bale alternates between warm and loving and cold and calculating. It appears at the end the "good" Bale survives. To him magic is important, its just not the only thing he lives for.

[jdrumm]

No object in the machine is ever transported. Only a duplicate of the object in the machine is transported. Don’t forget; the hats all remained in the machine after the experiments. Same for the cat. When Jackman left the lab was when he noticed the pile of hats and the extra cat and realized what was happening.

Actually, you really can't prove that no object is transported. The object is duplicated completely, and suddenly exists in two places at the same time. The 2nd, "remote" object is very possibly the original, and the one remaining in the machine (and falling through the trap door) the copy . . . the requirement being that the original must be removed to make room for the copy. The real question is, who's stream of consciousness continues to flow?

This gets freakier and freakier the more I think about it :D

[FredProgGH]

Actually, you really can't prove that no object is transported. The object is duplicated completely, and suddenly exists in two places at the same time. The 2nd, "remote" object is very possibly the original, and the one remaining in the machine (and falling through the trap door) the copy . . . the requirement being that the original must be removed to make room for the copy. The real question is, who's stream of consciousness continues to flow?

This gets freakier and freakier the more I think about it :D

That also supports the way I remember Jackman talking about it. Seems there's chaos theory at work here! Time for the obligatory I need to see it again interjection :D

BTW
If you dropped into a tank of water and drowned you'd look surprised. Even if you knew it was coming.

[Aliens]

Actually, you really can't prove that no object is transported. The object is duplicated completely, and suddenly exists in two places at the same time. The 2nd, "remote" object is very possibly the original, and the one remaining in the machine (and falling through the trap door) the copy . . . the requirement being that the original must be removed to make room for the copy. The real question is, who's stream of consciousness continues to flow?


If an object were transported it would leave nothing behind. The duplication process is the result of the experiment *failing*. By that I mean it was intended to transport, yet it didn’t. The *failed* result was it duplicated instead of transporting. All this did was change the way the act was to be performed. Saying the duplicate is somehow magically reproduced in front of our eyes is a bit of a stretch considering our knowledge of the process we use every day. If we take this so far out of the realm of what we know, then anything is possible, which leads me back to what I said earlier: It’s ‘that kind of movie,’ so there may well be no correct answer/solution to all of the questions being asked.

BTW
If you dropped into a tank of water and drowned you'd look surprised. Even if you knew it was coming.

Especially if some practical joker put ice cubes in it beforehand. :D

[FredProgGH]

Whether the duplicate is created at a distant point or in the box and then moved to a distant point is beside the point (if you follow me :D) The important thing is there are two people at the end of the process- one stays in the box, the other winds up some distance away. The exact process by which it happens isn't important. But even if it's semantically incorrect to call it such if you have a person, then create an identical person somewhere else, then destroy the original so only the one that is somewhere else remains, and that other one is identical to the original to the degree that he can consider himself to be the original- the upshot is the same as teleporting.

[AnthonyP]

1) it must be duplicate at the location. If the machine transported then why wouyld recreate at the original location.

2) I don’t think many of the theories make sense me guess he either
-- a) cloned himself (once or before each show) and the clone did the last bit of the act while he got ready for the prestige at the other end
-- b) he used the machine and he fell down and the pit but the clone got the prestige
my guess is a, just because he did not like that the other guy got the applause. If it is a) then he could kill the clones by drowning during the show but if B then he kills the original (obviously after each show the previous original is dead)

3) my guess the last show was not normal. There were others around and saw the drowning. My guess either he saw the guy during the show and set the guy up (moved the tank) and the clone did not know about it. Or Bale did try and kill him ( he moved the tank)

[Aliens]

[QUOTE=FredProgGH] But even if it's semantically incorrect to call it such if you have a person, then create an identical person somewhere else, then destroy the original so only the one that is somewhere else remains, and that other one is identical to the original to the degree that he can consider himself to be the original- the upshot is the same as teleporting.

Who says the original is the one being destroyed? To me, the assumption is the one in the machine is the original.

[FredProgGH]

Doesn't matter. When a cell divides, where is the original?? Is it both the new cells? Neither?? Who cares?? Jackman becomes two. One goes one place, one goes another. They are identical and interchangeable. Each has as much right to say it is original- and at the same time, neither does.

[jdrumm]

Doesn't matter. When a cell divides, where is the original?? Is it both the new cells? Neither?? Who cares?? Jackman becomes two. One goes one place, one goes another. They are identical and interchangeable. Each has as much right to say it is original- and at the same time, neither does.

Exactly.

There is no way to prove which is the original. And without a way, there's no point arguing about it :)

And I think it's worthwhile to note that

The survivor of each illusion obviously has no memory of the inside of the box. His memories consist of many successful "teleportations" and finding, afterward, just as many bottled corpses that look remarkably like him. As far as he's concerned, he'll survive every future trick, because he remembers surviving every one in the past. He could very well be operating under the "illusion" that his future will never fork into a dead end!

[FredProgGH]

Dang, of course, that's it!!

Each survivor has, by definition, only the memories of surviving and believes that he will always be the one to survive as the original (from his point of view). Performing the trick he never thinks he will wind up in the tank. He believes the "other" will die. Of course, after duplication one copy is right- and the other finds he is very wrong. Hence the shock. That is why he does the trick, thinking it is a copy that will die, not comprehending that for all intents and purposes he, the (current) original, will cease to exist, replaced by two new entities, each of which will take a different path.
It makes sense now.

[jdrumm]

Dang, of course, that's it!!
It makes sense now.

The only thing I can't reconcile is
That he must've had the memory of the first attempt using himself, where the instance of himself still in the machine shot and killed the remote instance. The survivor of that first use would have to assume that his point of view in a subsequent use of the machine would remain right there, in the machine . . . and thus wind up pickled.

I think I need to ponder this a bit more . . .

[FredProgGH]

Well, OK, back to the original theory- IIRC he worries in his speech about not knowing if he'll be the one in the box or not. What he doesn't realize (or does he...) is that "he" doesn't wind up being either of the new duplicates. And after one is killed, only the survivor is around to ask the question.

[Ron Temple]

The decision to destoy one's duplicate is a thorny issue. As stated, one can only guess the metaphysical identity issue, but one does know that he effectively is commiting suicide each performance...whichever way it turns out. That's the sacrifice. I think you guys are splitting hairs. Wolverine knows he's going to live and die each night until his mission is accomplished. Along the way, he accepts the accolades and agony as the price.

[FredProgGH]

I agree with that. of course the irony is that the one who accepts the accolades never has to face the agony! Either way he is still facing the terror of the unknown every night- clearly HE doesn't really have much more of a handle on what happens during the procedure than we do :D

[Ron Temple]

I agree with that. of course the irony is that the one who accepts the accolades never has to face the agony! Either way he is still facing the terror of the unknown every night- clearly HE doesn't really have much more of a handle on what happens during the procedure than we do :D

Yup

[spyder696969]

Well, we're getting somewhere farther still, yet no attempts to relate the Edison/Tesla or knot subplots.

[rbmcgee]

Well, I've now watched the entire movie 2 times and watched multiple scenes many times and I'm still convinced that this is a poor job of storytelling by a director who really had no idea where he was going.

[Aliens]

Well, I've now watched the entire movie 2 times and watched multiple scenes many times and I'm still convinced that this is a poor job of storytelling by a director who really had no idea where he was going.

...which leads me back to what I said earlier: It’s ‘that kind of movie,’ so there may well be no correct answer/solution to all of the questions being asked.



I’m certain of one thing - no one is certain. :)

[flop]

Well, we're getting somewhere farther still, yet no attempts to relate the Edison/Tesla or knot subplots.

I think Tesla is a clone of Edison...
No, weren't they just fiercely competitive just like Bale and Jackman?

[spyder696969]

Getting close, flop!

[JohnR_IN_LA]

I've watched 30 minutes of this movie each evening for 2 nites... i cant even read the thread yet.

I'm having a little trouble .... the whole Magic thing just hasn't captured my imagination yet.

Also, all the characters seem just a bit off ... I have never known anyone like any these people! The mysterious engineers, the magicians, even the pretty wife ... seems like aliens from another planet, as far as their emotional makeup.

[aegisx]

Just saw the movie. I thought it was very well done. We had guessed certain plot aspects, but not them all so there was still surprise. It seems people in this thread are making things way more complicated then they are.

Bale's character was just a twin. Several parts of the movie allude to it. It explains the knot and the way Sarah was talking. It is also alluded to by the conversation about the Chinese magician. His brother was in the picture before any mention of Tesla I think.


I haven't watched the Illusionist, it looked more romantic like than this one.

[aegisx]

I've watched 30 minutes of this movie each evening for 2 nites... i cant even read the thread yet.

I'm having a little trouble .... the whole Magic thing just hasn't captured my imagination yet.

Also, all the characters seem just a bit off ... I have never known anyone like any these people! The mysterious engineers, the magicians, even the pretty wife ... seems like aliens from another planet, as far as their emotional makeup.

I think thats where all the talk of obsession comes in, they aren't normal people. As for the wife, did you see where she was living? Maybe she was just happy to get out of there at first.

[Aliens]

I've watched 30 minutes of this movie each evening for 2 nites...

I'm having a little trouble .... the whole Magic thing just hasn't captured my imagination yet.


There should be a law against this. If people don’t have the time to sit down and watch a movie in its entirety (barring an emergency), they shouldn’t watch it at all. Very often you lose the pace and rhythm of the movie and can never get in a flow, especially movies like this one that requires a bit of mental exercise. Answering the phone should be outlawed as well. No wonder so many movies get a bad rap. Just pretend watching a movie is like having sex. Let me guess; some of you stop during that as well. ;) :)

[Aliens]

Just saw the movie. I thought it was very well done. We had guessed certain plot aspects, but not them all so there was still surprise. It seems people in this thread are making things way more complicated then they are.

Bale's character was just a twin. Several parts of the movie allude to it. It explains the knot and the way Sarah was talking. It is also alluded to by the conversation about the Chinese magician. His brother was in the picture before any mention of Tesla I think.



Bale isn't the one in question.

[spyder696969]

...Just pretend watching a movie is like having sex. Let me guess; some of you stop during that as well. ;) :)
If I don't stop, how can I switch to the other girls? :confused:

[Ron Temple]

Also, all the characters seem just a bit off ... I have never known anyone like any these people! The mysterious engineers, the magicians, even the pretty wife ... seems like aliens from another planet, as far as their emotional makeup.

I noticed this when I saw it in the theatre and I think it was intentional. None of the characters are really likeable, I think Nolan wanted us to connect with the story first, characters second. He walked a thin line to do this and it worked for me, but it might not for everybody.

[JohnR_IN_LA]

There should be a law against this. If people don’t have the time to sit down and watch a movie in its entirety (barring an emergency), they shouldn’t watch it at all. Very often you lose the pace and rhythm of the movie and can never get in a flow, especially movies like this one that requires a bit of mental exercise. Answering the phone should be outlawed as well.

Thats whats great about DVDs, people can watch a movie like its a good novel, digesting a couple chapters at a time.

Pace and rythm can easily be regenerated simply by watching the last scene that you watched the previous nite, again. Just like re-reading the last couple pages that you read nite before, of a good book.

Theres also some cool advantages to watching a movie this way:

a. You can fit in another 2 hour movie during the workweek, by treating it as a serial... I dont often have 2 hours on a weeknite, but i often have 30-45 minutes.

b. It allows you to preview a movie before offering it to the kids ( I appreciated this recently when i serial-viewed Crank).

c. Theres some movies that are worth watching, and they sure beat cable TV, but are not worth a sacrificing a whole evening too!

d. Serial viewing gives you more time to digest whats going on, which was kind of helpful with "The Prestige".

BTW, I invited the kids in, and we watched it from beginning to end last nite, I just took care of some things while they caught up to where I had left off.

[oink]

Finally got to watch this.

Disappointing.
Had the distinct feeling of being jerked around by the story and script.
The "did he or didn't he" approach by Nolan seemed lame and forced (brings to mind Memento, The 6th Sense...:rolleyes: ).

The 2 main characters were silly, childish, and needed to be bitch-slapped.
However, very fine performances by the Jackman, Bale, and Caine.
Ultimately, a waste of acting talent.

Oh well, maybe Nolan should have concentrated on the sequel to Batman Begins.

Without reading this thread before hand...my 2 cents.

[JohnR_IN_LA]

I would agree with that analysis Oink, it was all rather contrived.

Jackman and Bale I didnt think were all that great though... 2 better actors might have saved this flick, although they might have also rejected the script ...

[spyder696969]

However, very fine performances by the Jackman, Bale, and Caine.
Ultimately, a waste of acting talent...
oink,
While I can't recall a time where I've disagreed with you, I simply can't imagine putting the words "Jackman" and "acting talent" in the same sentence without also having the words "has absolutely no" between them. ;) :confused:

[oink]

Spyder, he isn't that bad.... :D
Not all pretty boys are bad actors.

[spyder696969]

Problem is, Hugh will always be Scratchy (Wolverine) to me. He's decent at the pissed-off, brooding, and smart-ass roles, but I doubt he'll ever pull off anything else with much believability or zeal, at least in my mind. He's been typecast beyond repair. :(

I'm non too impressed with Bale either. He did make a decent Batman, but much of that was due to the superior script/style of Begins over the cartoonish and over-the-top previous Batman films.

Caine has proven talented over the years. Bowie also turned in a nice (and unexpected) performance as Tesla. :)

[Aliens]

I thought Bale was pretty darn good in The Machinist, but what do I know? He recently turned 33, is good looking, and I think has a very good future ahead of him. But like I said, what do I know?

[spyder696969]

:eek: The Machinist! I forgot about that one. :o

Kudos to you for remembering, Aliens. Honestly, if I didn't know it was Bale in that movie, I don't think I'd recognize him (phyically or acting-wise). Don't worry, I know you know some things. ;)

[oink]

Bale seems to specialize in characters that are distant, enigmatic, and on-the-edge.
He has the "hardest" looking eyes and manner that I can recall in an actor.
He must have been a mass-murderer in another lifetime. :eek:

[JohnR_IN_LA]

Yea he pulled off the craziness part better than Jackman did!


I do think Jackman makes a good Batman type.

[gyver65]

I really enjoyed this movie. Here are a few things that I got out of this movie:

Bale's character seems to be a twin but why was his keyword to his journal, that he gave to Jackman's character, "Tesla"? He may have actually visited Tesla once to clone himself but his clone was not exactly as himself. He could not afford to keep cloning himself. Also I believe that Jackman's character clones himself during the act and he is the one that is transported while his clone falls into the tank. Until the end of the movie where Caine's character tells him how horrible drowning is, he actually believes that drowning is a peaceful experience. This way he justifies killing his clones is not such a bad thing.

[IrmoGamecoq]

He must have been a mass-murderer in another lifetime. :eek:

Well, he was one in "American Psycho." :)

And, to say that "Batman Begins" was Bale's only decent role is laughable. In addition to "The Machinist," there's the above AP, "Equilibrium," "Reign of Fire," heck going all the way back to "Empire of the Sun." He's tended to take off-beat, strange even, roles and pretty much excelled in them.

Batman Begins was lucky to have him, not the other way around.

[Hawkeye7]

I really enjoyed this movie. Here are a few things that I got out of this movie:

Bale's character seems to be a twin but why was his keyword to his journal, that he gave to Jackman's character, "Tesla"? He may have actually visited Tesla once to clone himself but his clone was not exactly as himself. He could not afford to keep cloning himself. Also I believe that Jackman's character clones himself during the act and he is the one that is transported while his clone falls into the tank. Until the end of the movie where Caine's character tells him how horrible drowning is, he actually believes that drowning is a peaceful experience. This way he justifies killing his clones is not such a bad thing.


Bale tells him "tesla" to send him to the USA to get him out of the country. At least that's who I saw it.

After reading all this and rethinking the movie. Isn't it plausable that the cloaning takes palce before hand. Then during the show it's just a light show. Cloan performs the trick goes into the tank and Danton pops up in the back of the room?

So Danton always lives for his Prestige, cloan always dies with the look of surprise, And until the very end Danton thinks he is doing the right thing until Cain tells him drowning is like hell not peaceful.

[IrmoGamecoq]

After reading all this and rethinking the movie. Isn't it plausable that the cloaning takes palce before hand. Then during the show it's just a light show. Cloan performs the trick goes into the tank and Danton pops up in the back of the room?

So Danton always lives for his Prestige, cloan always dies with the look of surprise, And until the very end Danton thinks he is doing the right thing until Cain tells him drowning is like hell not peaceful.

This is precisely what I've been saying in this thread for awhile now.

[oink]

That is how I understood the "trick" too.

[AnthonyP]

said the same thing before.

[flop]

Well, we're getting somewhere farther still, yet no attempts to relate the Edison/Tesla or knot subplots.

Ok so what's up with the knot subplot? I saw this movie in the theater, so I don't recall its significance other than it being the point where the Bale/Jackman rivalry really began. Is there more to it than that???

[rbmcgee]

The knot subplot is Nolan's very poor first attempt to hint at there being 2 Bales. Unfortunately, he let storytelling and reason suffer as a result of this strained effort.

[spyder696969]

Yep...only it wasn't a "hint" to me or the gf at all. As with the hats/cats outside Tesla's place, it was a blatant and obvious giveaway at what was bound to happen. Pretty sad and anticlimactic when the whole story is known 5 minutes in. :(

[oink]

Agreed, Spyder.

[Aliens]

The knot subplot is Nolan's very poor first attempt to hint at there being 2 Bales.

As with the hats/cats outside Tesla's place, it was a blatant and obvious giveaway at what was bound to happen.

;)

While I was watching, I took Bale’s ‘new’ knot as a rebellion by him to show he was also a very talented magician and the trick could still work using his technique. It wasn’t until later that I understood differently. I gave the movie a 3 out of 5

[spyder696969]

In the very moment the knot issue is happening, you are correct, Aliens. It does appear Bale is simply trying a different knot (which was supposed to support her weight a little better, if I remember correctly). However, when he can't recall which knot he made, it's a dead giveaway, though not as A-B-C, let-me-spell-it-out-for-everyone as the hats/cats. That whole scene was insulting.

[David F]

As Jackman is dying, there's a mini-recap showing his first duplication and and his shooting of the clone.

I just watched this for the first time (liked it a lot, though there are some problems with the plot), and I thought when we see the flashback of the first teleportation that it's the duplicate who grabs the gun and shoots the original, who is still in the device. Which would mean the original died in the first attempt and all of the subsequent film was carried out by duplicates.

[spyder696969]

The correct answer to ALL of these musings is that not a single person knows the truth. Period.

Since the principles and workings behind Tesla's ridiculously non-real device are never brought to light, it is impossible to say if the original is either teleported or cloned to a remote location. For all we know, the process destroys the original and makes two clones in two different locations or even allows for the original to exist in two different places at once. Or maybe they're all just robots.*

In the end, it's irrelevant. What matters is Jackman's fantasic sideburns. ;)

*Spoilers not included because it's all just conjecture anyway.

[Ron Temple]

I just watched this for the first time (liked it a lot, though there are some problems with the plot), and I thought when we see the flashback of the first teleportation that it's the duplicate who grabs the gun and shoots the original, who is still in the device. Which would mean the original died in the first attempt and all of the subsequent film was carried out by duplicates.

You could be right, but that's not what I saw...my memory maybe going.

The gun was right there and ready to use, so Danton had decided to kill the duplicate beforehand. I would think it was at the origin point, but I could be mistaken. There was structure around each as I recall. It all screams to me that it doesn't matter which one survives, they both know that one is going to die. That's the agreement Danton has made with himself. However, when death comes knocking the dying dup still struggles against fate.

[sdurani]

Morally, Danton may not view his act as the equivalent of murder and/or suicide on a nightly basis.

Imagine being able to hack off your forearm in front of a horrified audience every night, only to have a machine (hidden off-stage) grow it back instantly and perfectly right before their eyes. Yes, each show means you have a bloody forearm to dispose of, but it's not like you're going to miss the appendage (already been replaced by show's end).

Can you still be considered a self-mutilating psycho if you go into it knowing that there will be no resulting damage whatsoever to you? Is it still suicide and/or murder if you split yourself in two and then get rid of one so that you're right back where you started? Remember, you're not doing this to anyone else, nor is anyone else doing it to you. It's Danton doing it to Danton (himself).

Just curious about the moral implications, since many viewers see Danton as having lost his morality in his obsession to out-do his rival. Has he become immoral, at least based on what he's doing in his act?Sanjay

[spyder696969]

I'd liken the whole thing to a lizard leaving behind and growing a new tail to his advantage.

Those darned immoral reptiles!

[FredProgGH]

I would liken the duplicate to a clone- perhaps it starts as a part of you but it is ultimately a fully realized separate entity by the time it is killed. I think if it were me I would not be able to dismiss the act by saying that it is only an extension of my own biological self- it is a self contained consciousness. I would no longer have the right to decide matters of life and death for him.

[srw1000]

Morally, Danton may not view his act as the equivalent of murder and/or suicide on a nightly basis.

Imagine being able to hack off your forearm in front of a horrified audience every night, only to have a machine (hidden off-stage) grow it back instantly and perfectly right before their eyes. Yes, each show means you have a bloody forearm to dispose of, but it's not like you're going to miss the appendage (already been replaced by show's end).

Can you still be considered a self-mutilating psycho if you go into it knowing that there will be no resulting damage whatsoever to you? Is it still suicide and/or murder if you split yourself in two and then get rid of one so that you're right back where you started? Remember, you're not doing this to anyone else, nor is anyone else doing it to you. It's Danton doing it to Danton (himself).

Just curious about the moral implications, since many viewers see Danton as having lost his morality in his obsession to out-do his rival. Has he become immoral, at least based on what he's doing in his act?SanjayWhile that may be one of the moral problems with Danton's character, I think the bigger problem is setting his set up of Borden, which he will know will result in his death. Earlier, he also tried to kill him by intentionally screwing up the bullet catch trick.

Both of these actions are unquestionably more immoral than killing off his own duplicate.

But, back you your original question, is it immoral to kill one's duplicate? I guess that partially depends on whether or not you believe that the duplicate is an actual person. If so, then just being a duplicate doesn't allow the original do whatever he wants to it. Morally, he doesn't "own" his duplicate or have the right to mutilate or kill it.

This also makes me believe that the duplicate is created on stage during the act, not before hand. If he knew what was coming, there's always a chance that the duplicate or the original could change his mind at the last second, ruining the trick and the trap set for Borden.

That's the reason that the trick is so elaborately created. The duplicate (or original) has no way of stopping the inevitable end of the trick in the water trap. It also explains why Danton never knew if he were killed, or if it was his duplicate. The consciousness of either would be identical at the point of creation. Had the trick been done earlier, they would have separate memories and recollections after the point of creation, so which one dies would be easily known.Scott

[AnthonyP]

That's the reason that the trick is so elaborately created. The duplicate (or original) has no way of stopping the inevitable end of the trick in the water trap. It also explains why Danton never knew if he were killed, or if it was his duplicate. The consciousness of either would be identical at the point of creation. Had the trick been done earlier, they would have separate memories and recollections after the point of creation, so which one dies would be easily known.

it can't be, guy walks into machine, machine works, makes a clone somewhere else, guy in machine falls through pit. The only way it would work is if the original (guy that steps in the machine) is the one that dies

[srw1000]

it can't be, guy walks into machine, machine works, makes a clone somewhere else, guy in machine falls through pit. The only way it would work is if the original (guy that steps in the machine) is the one that diesUnless, as had been suggested earlier, the original is transported while the duplicate is created in the original's place. It's really not important, since it appears that the duplicate is an exact duplicate, so whatever the options, the result is the same.

Either:

1) The duplicate is created and teleported to the balcony.

2) The duplicate is created in the machine, and the original is transported to the balcony.

3) The original is divided in two (or some other fraction) with duplicate molecules filling out each of the resulting halves.

In any case, the result is essentially the same: A Danton lives and a Danton dies, each indistinguishable from the other.Scott

[sdurani]

I think the bigger problem is setting his set up of Borden, which he will know will result in his death.Yes, that is immoral, even if he feels it is justifiable revenge. Morally, he doesn't "own" his duplicate or have the right to mutilate or kill it.What if they both agree to it? Though in this case, the "agreement" is not typical, since it is a deal he's making with himself. There are no two Dantons until the moment of the trick, at which point we're immediately back to one. So it's not like he ever has the opportunity to discuss the idea or come to an agreement with another being (albeit himself).

Obviously he can't keep a secret from himself, so he knows exactly what's about to happen when the switch is thrown (duh, he designed the trick). If we start from the premise of the machine simply making two Dantons out of one, rather than the concept of original vs duplicate, then is Danton actually killing another being or is he (with complete forethought and willingness) really commiting suicide? Or both? It can't be "neither" since it results in a human corpse. Sanjay

[srw1000]

Yes, that is immoral, even if he feels it is justifiable revenge. What if they both agree to it? Though in this case, the "agreement" is not typical, since it is a deal he's making with himself. There are no two Dantons until the moment of the trick, at which point we're immediately back to one. So it's not like he ever has the opportunity to discuss the idea or come to an agreement with another being (albeit himself).

Obviously he can't keep a secret from himself, so he knows exactly what's about to happen when the switch is thrown (duh, he designed the trick). If we start from the premise of the machine simply making two Dantons out of one, rather than the concept of original vs duplicate, then is Danton actually killing another being or is he (with complete forethought and willingness) really commiting suicide? Or both? It can't be "neither" since it results in a human corpse. SanjayI guess that to some, the answer to the question lies in whether or not theduplicate has a soul. Is it possible for a soul to exist in two bodies simultaneously? Can a soul be duplicated? If both answers are no, then if the soulless entity is killed, is there anything morally wrong with the destruction of a simple biological system? This all rests on the supposition of souls being real.At this point, I think we're over-analysing the movie, and heading toward the direction of one of those topics that ends up getting a thread shut down, so I'll let it rest at that.

I haven't read the original story, so I'd be interested to know if any of these themes or questions are touched upon in it. That would probably be a more appropriate venue to explore these deeper themes. I didn't get the feeling that the goal of the movie was to get us to discuss these deeper ideas.

Not that there's anything wrong with that.

Scott

[spyder696969]

Maybe that's the whole point. The "original" dies early on and all resulting copies have no soul, hence the supposed "soullessness" of all of Danton's actions that follow. (If, indeed, one considers Danton's actions to be such.)

Along a similar line, I liked Multiplicity better, as it was The Prestige minus the pretentiousness. :)

[AnthonyP]

no his soul died when his wife died

[Aliens]

I had to rent this again to satisfy my curiosity. :)

The machine duplicated and transported simultaneously, however, there was a problem. Sometimes it would transport the person in the machine and a duplicate would remain, and on other occasions the duplicate would transport and the stage performer would remain in the machine. When Jackman was performing the act on stage and turned to enter the machine he was very apprehensive. You could see the fear on his face. Would this be the time he transported, or would he be in the box? After he was shot, Jackman said to Bale, “It took courage to climb into that machine every night not knowing if I’d be the man in the box or The Prestige.” All of this goes back to what Tesla said to Jackman. “Exact science is not an exact science.” The machine was never perfected. It was a crapshoot every night for the performer.

When Jackman tested the transporter alone and it worked, what happened was; the original was transported and the duplicate materialized in the machine. That was not supposed to happen. Others have speculated that the original remained in the machine and the duplicate transported. However, the original knew what the machine would do, or so he thought, so there wouldn’t be any surprise on his part. His only surprise would be that HE transported instead of remaining in the machine. In any case, the original would have no need to panic and kill because he knew a duplicate would appear, just not in the way he expected. That is why the one in the machine (the duplicate) was shocked to see his identical self (the original) outside the machine, and was thoroughly confused as to what was going on and picked up the gun and shot the original. The original knew what had happened and tried to tell the duplicate, but the duplicate acted too fast and shot the original before he could explain. From that point on there was never an original, only a duplicate. That is why I refer to the person in the first paragraph as the stage performer because the original was killed from the get-go. I suspect Jackman had the gun handy just in case something went terribly wrong (deformed, deranged, etc., etc.).

[spyder696969]

I had to rent this again to satisfy my curiosity. :)

After he was shot, Jackman said to Bale, “It took courage to climb into that machine every night not knowing if I’d be the man in the box or The Prestige.” All of this goes back to what Tesla said to Jackman. “Exact science is not an exact science.” The machine was never perfected. It was a crapshoot every night for the performer.


Finally, somebody gets it. :D

[mpalmieri1203]

Finally, somebody gets it. :D

I was thinking the same thing!! I would have to say read the novel for a slightly different and more intersting spin on the prestige materials.....

[aegisx]

I had to rent this again to satisfy my curiosity. :)

The machine duplicated and transported simultaneously, however, there was a problem. Sometimes it would transport the person in the machine and a duplicate would remain, and on other occasions the duplicate would transport and the stage performer would remain in the machine. When Jackman was performing the act on stage and turned to enter the machine he was very apprehensive. You


I had always thought that he had the gun there in case there was duplicate, so he could kill it. In all of there other experiments, they never showed a deformed cat or anything.

You are probably correct that it was random, due to that quote. However does it really matter? In essence they are the same person so it does not matter which one lived.

[FredProgGH]

Well dang- I was saying that from the very beginning and got taken to task for it :mad: At least someone has rewatched it with these points in mind. I still plan to see it again myself.

[srw1000]

I had to rent this again to satisfy my curiosity. :)

The machine duplicated and transported simultaneously, however, there was a problem. Sometimes it would transport the person in the machine and a duplicate would remain, and on other occasions the duplicate would transport and the stage performer would remain in the machine. When Jackman was performing the act on stage and turned to enter the machine he was very apprehensive. You could see the fear on his face. Would this be the time he transported, or would he be in the box? After he was shot, Jackman said to Bale, “It took courage to climb into that machine every night not knowing if I’d be the man in the box or The Prestige.” All of this goes back to what Tesla said to Jackman. “Exact science is not an exact science.” The machine was never perfected. It was a crapshoot every night for the performer.I don't think that's right.He didn't know whether or not he'd be in the box or in the balcony, because it's essentially unknowable.

The machine creates exact duplicates. It doesn't make any difference which is which because they are exactly the same - indistinguishable, with the same bodies, thoughts, and memories at the moment of creation. Each time the trick was performed, he was always the one in the box, and he was always the Prestige.

The survivor wouldn't know which one he was, nor would it matter. Although from his own perspective, he may have an (unprovable) opinion. There would be greater fear in the machine not functioning either correctly or at all; never producing a duplicate or teleporting one of them into a wall or the floor. He had to live in fear that at some point over the planned 100 performances that he'd end up in the tank, with no duplicate created. There was no contingency plan for that, and it would have assuredly been the permanent end of Danton.Scott

[FredProgGH]

Well, I think both answers are right.


Scott's assessment matches my own; both duplicates are equal and have claim to being as much original or copy as the other. There is no literal through line for his consciousness in that respect.

But clearly Jackman's character doesn't grasp this. Each night he frets and hopes he will be the one to be the Prestige, not the one in the box, failing to understand he will in essence be both- or probably more correctly, neither.

[spyder696969]

Ha-ha, yeah. That's simply another issue altogether. What with the "convenient" teleportation to the exact spot on the balcony that shielded the act. It was apparent that Tesla's machine put the "duplicate" in the same place each time, but the distance from Tesla's house to that spot was greater than the distance from the stage to the balcony.

The entire movie is pretty silly when you really think about it.

[Ron Temple]

Well, I think both answers are right.


Scott's assessment matches my own; both duplicates are equal and have claim to being as much original or copy as the other. There is no literal through line for his consciousness in that respect.

But clearly Jackman's character doesn't grasp this. Each night he frets and hopes he will be the one to be the Prestige, not the one in the box, failing to understand he will in essence be both- or probably more correctly, neither.

Fred, you and Scott should publish a paper on this conclusion...

[spyder696969]

Forget the paper...build Tesla's machine and show us how it works if you're all so smart! ;)

[srw1000]

Ha-ha, yeah. That's simply another issue altogether. What with the "convenient" teleportation to the exact spot on the balcony that shielded the act. It was apparent that Tesla's machine put the "duplicate" in the same place each time, but the distance from Tesla's house to that spot was greater than the distance from the stage to the balcony.My guess is that there was a lot of trial and error with placement and controls (if any), before this was ever performed in front of an audience. Maybe with more cats. ;)

One other aspect that never really came out in the movie is that once he owns the machine, he is essentially, permanently rich. He would never have any money worries ever again. Not that he was ever exactly short on cash in the first place, but unlimited funds would allow for many options to get back at Borden, either through outright assassination, or for more complex methods of psychological torture.

He easily could have kept audiences enthralled every night by performing the trick with a simple light show and a single duplicate. The only reason for killing one off each night is to potentially set up Borden.

This is ridiculously risky. The machine must operate perfectly each night. Each night Borden doesn't show up there's also the potential for a messy discovery.

Instead, he could have done myriad other things to get his revenge, ranging from the simple to the complex. During one of his shows, he or his duplicate could have simply killed Borden. He has the perfect alibi, since hundreds of people would have witnessed him on stage at the time of the murder. Even if caught, it would only be one of them that would be caught. At worst, it would be no different than the trick that he ended up performing each night.

He could also have been even more sadistic; perhaps revolving around Borden's daughter? Some other ruse (or series of ruses) that would have publicly disgraced/humiliated Borden? With unlimited funds, the possibilities are endless.That's kind of the point that the film falls apart for me. While the twists and turns kept me guessing, they didn't keep me caring. And while I still think it was a good movie, I wouldn't rank it as great.

Scott

[FredProgGH]

That's kind of the point that the film falls apart for me. While the twists and turns kept me guessing, they didn't keep me caring. And while I still think it was a good movie, I wouldn't rank it as great.

Scott
Yeah, but it's interesting enough that you don't start picking it apart until well after it's over- at least, I didn't. I was pretty into it the whole time I was watching, and I don't mind the prospect of seeing it again. That for me is a thumbs-up.

[srw1000]

Yeah, but it's interesting enough that you don't start picking it apart until well after it's over- at least, I didn't. I was pretty into it the whole time I was watching, and I don't mind the prospect of seeing it again. That for me is a thumbs-up.This is true to a point, but what really got me thinking about the movie is the discussion that was going on here. I was pretty much done with the movie after seeing it once, but when a number of members were comparing it favorably to The Illusionist, I needed to see why. I thought there must have been something that I missed, something beyond the simple veneer.

Throughout this thread, many have written about why the movie is so special. Some of the ideas have been spot on, while others have been, um, a bit off. Though all of them, I still haven't come upon one that convinces me that this film is anything special. Somewhat entertaining, yes. More than that, no.

So, even though I've put more thought into seeing it, none of that has made me want to go back and watch it again. I just don't think there's anything more to see.

That's the point where you and I have to split, Fred.

If anything, I might be tempted to read the original story, but I haven't quite been convinced there's enough to be gained in that yet.

Scott

[spyder696969]

Nice. Unlimited funding. Just toss the money in the machine and presto, more cash. That's what I would have done. Who cares about revenge when you're filthy, stinking rich? Find yourself one hot chick and have a 3-way, 4-way, or 36-way. :D

If you get tired, you can always tag in "yourself" for a breather. ;)

[FredProgGH]

*lol* That makes me want to ask a question but it would take the thread in an oh-so-wrong direction :p

[Aliens]

He didn't know whether or not he'd be in the box or in the balcony, because it's essentially unknowable.

It was a crapshoot every night for the performer.
Aren’t we saying the same thing?

The machine creates exact duplicates. It doesn't make any difference which is which because they are exactly the same - indistinguishable, with the same bodies, thoughts, and memories at the moment of creation. Each time the trick was performed, he was always the one in the box, and he was always the Prestige.

From that point on there was never an original, only a duplicate.Where do I disagree? Maybe I didn’t expand on it as much or get into all kinds of conjectures as you have, but I thought I was getting long-winded enough as it was. :)

[srw1000]

Aren’t we saying the same thing?

Where do I disagree? Maybe I didn’t expand on it as much or get into all kinds of conjectures as you have, but I thought I was getting long-winded enough as it was. :)I think the disagreement is that I don't believe that themachine ever fluctuated between teleporting the clone or teleporting the original. I think only one of those two possibilities ever happened, but I don't know which.

Not that it really made any difference, since the two were exactly the same.

You had stated that the duplicate wouldn't know what was happening, either at the time of the original use of the machine or subsequent uses. that's where w