Grays- Simple one can paints, and one very neutral... [Text View]

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wbassett

10-25-06, 12:18 AM

I basically started this topic in the Alternative Methods thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=733092), but I think it got lost in that thread and people haven't seen it because the topic wasn't about grays...

To start, an opening statement: There are many threads for advanced mixes, and threads for the development of new advanced mixes. The intent of this thread is not to re-cover that ground nor is it intended to replace them. The advanced mixes incorporate components that add to the gain and depth of the mix, and a simple one can is not going to have those elements.

There is a niche for simple off the shelf methods. Some people come to AVS looking for a DIY screen and quickly become inundated with so many methods ranging from advanced mixes to single sheet applications, to BOC, exotic fabrics, and Acoustically Transparent materials. It stands to reason that most people just look and read, and the percentage of people that actually post or create threads is smaller than we tend to realize. I'm sure we lose some people because of the confusion and they end up going off and buying something commercial, which is a shame. Others are very interested, but still not sure which way to go.

This is where the simple solutions are invaluable. They can get a new member up and running with a decent screen for very little money while they research the different methods. Some people may never change their screen from a simple one can. However they may someday think about it when they change projectors, and if they feel they got good information here, they will come back and look at the more advanced methods. There is also an outstanding thread teaching rolling techniques and is a beginners guide to painting a screen (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=708009). That is a must read for anyone uncomfortable with the idea of painting a screen.

I also want people to keep in mind that although some of the one can paints can make for a very nice screen, do not expect $10 worth of paint to perform like a $2000 screen, or even a $700 screen for that matter. They will provide a very nice screen that is better than a bed sheet or bare wall though, and in some cases much better.

Now with the disclaimers out of the way, and without further adieu...

wbassett

10-25-06, 12:20 AM

Whites
I know I said this thread is about grays, but white is important to some people too, and this will only be a small section of this thread.

Matte white is pretty much a benchmark... a matte surface with a gain of 1.0... You'll get a good picture, but also know it can be better.

UPW
People have used a lot of different whites, the most common one everyone will see in here is Behr Ultra Pure White, called UPW for short. UPW is a very nice white with a RGB break down of 253 244 253. To try and put that in a mental perspective, a StudioTek 130 breaks down to 250 241 249, so it's close to that shade of white. Is it as good as a ST130? Go back to what I said earlier about what to expect from a $10-12 can of paint... but it is a very excellent starter white screen.

UPW is used as a base for some advanced mixes too, so it's a nice starting point for some.

Rosco Off Broadway White, and Rosco White White (http://www.rosco.com/us/scenic/off_broadway.asp)
Rosco paints are a little blast from the past. I am unsure why it lost a following, perhaps because it's not as easy to find as UPW, but it can be ordered online, and Rosco also has a store locator. I was surprised to find a store 17 miles away that carried it. At this writing I personally do not have experience with using it, but be assured I will very soon.

There are people on here that have used it and claim it is a superior paint. We have some data on UPW, I would like to get some on the Rosco paints too.

Kilzit
Yes it is a primer, and me personally, I always prime first. (Unless you plan on an advanced paint mix application, if so follow their instructions)

When applied it has a smooth flat look that surprisingly does make for a very nice temporary screen! This could be a very good first step for someone unsure which way to go since you'll already have a primer coat down. If the advanced mix calls for a substrate or no primer, again follow their directions, but you certainly won't be out of the game. Keep in mind this is a primer and a flat paint, and as such flat paints do not like any kind of dirt, and are not very friendly to clean. The plus side is, you can always throw another coat on.

Unlike Rosco paints and UPW you can get Kilzit almost anywhere. I picked up a gallon of it at Walmart for around $13. Why a gallon? I am remodeling a 143 year old Victorian house and like I mentioned, I always prime first, so I know I will be using it for other things as well. A lot of people may even have some at home already.

So there are three very nice whites to get people up and running with a nice matte white screen.

wbassett

10-25-06, 12:21 AM

Grays
So what’s the big deal with a gray screen anyway? Well they help boost contrast for projectors with low contrast ratios, they make blacks appear ‘black’ or blacker, and they fair better in ambient light than white does.

Just because it’s gray though doesn’t mean it’s an ambient light screen and all your worries are gone. And not just any gray will do, too dark and a projected image can look dull and muddy, too light and the advantages with ambient light are reduced or negated. The advance DIY mixes and commercial gray screen paints (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=733634) literally have years of development and tweaking with the components. Many of them also employ a poly to the mix to add gain and depth to the image.

People are always looking for a simple gray though. The same reasons apply… maybe they don’t have a lot of money right now to spend on advanced formulas, or maybe they haven’t decided which way they want to go, but they do know they like some lights on from time to time and they want a gray.

Same disclaimer as before…there are already several off the shelf grays being used. This thread isn’t to cover topics that have already been discussed or have ample information already.

The main drive and goal with grays has always been to find one as neutral as possible. In fact a lot of the advanced mixes have this as one of their primary goals. Why neutral? That way the painted screen will not have a color shift one way or another.

A little background
Alfred Munsell was a color theorist who published a book called "A Grammar of Color" back in the 1920’s. Munsell's system was based on color as it relates to light; this was different because it dealt with how we perceive colors and not how they are physically made with paints. This topic has also been discussed in the RGB thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=719325), but we are not going to go too far into it here. If anyone is interested, here is a link to a nice article on the Munsell system (http://www.cis.rit.edu/mcsl/online/cie.php).

So what Munsell came up with was a system that has been used for over 80 years now. The grays in the Munsell system are neutral grays, so I decided that was the place to start.

What is so special about Munsell Gray? Well to start, Munsell isn’t paint, it’s a color system. Below is the Munsell gray scale.
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l190/wbassett/Munsell/valuekey11.gif

Since there are already grays being used, and mixes trying to develop a true neutral gray, I decided to look for off the shelf grays that also had data as to how neutral they really are. That turned out to be no small task, but I did find a company called RP Imaging (http://www.rpimaging.com/store/PID123) that sells a neutral gray paint Munsell N8/ gray as specified by ISO 3664:2000.

I believe the reason why there hasn’t been much written on this in here is because at $68 a gallon plus $12 shipping that is more than most people want to spend. Plus most of the people working on mixes and one can solutions strive to find something that is easy for the average person to find.

Well here is a neutral gray. It may be a little dark, but not much darker than SS or some of the other mixes I've seen.

Munsell N8
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l190/wbassett/Munsell_N8.jpg

Everything always seems to be one off... so close but not quite what we're looking for. If only RP Imaging made a gray in Munsell N9... this is a very nice looking color and shade.

Munsell N9
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l190/wbassett/Munsell_N9.jpg

I really think something can be done with N8. It may look a little expensive by the gallon ($68 plus $12 shipping) but that breaks down to $20 a quart. Is that really that bad? I know people on here have spent way more than that in paints trying to create a neutral gray. We may have one though that everyone seems to be ignoring!

Like I said before, if N8 really is 202 202 202 then perhaps we should stop trying to invent a neutral gray and work with the one that exists. From there a top coat could be developed that adds gain, maybe some texture or retro-reflection as well as angular reflection properties... this could be very interesting to work with.

wbassett

10-25-06, 12:22 AM

Munsell Paint Matches
I couldn't find anyone that sells the GTI Munsell N8 paint other than RP Imaging... however I did find out that GTI is located in Newburgh NY which is around an hour and a half away... I have military buddy that lives down there so sounds like a visit and field trip!

Here is how I am approaching this as far as neutral grays. A lot of time and money has been spent by people trying to develop a neutral gray. GTI may have something already, but it also may be more than what some want to pay, although I still feel it's not that much. I went through the database of all cataloged brands of paints and did comparisons to Munsell N8 and N9 and I found some matches that are very close... as close as we're going to get from a premix.

The following color matches have the Munsell color in the center and it is surrounded by the closest matches. To the left is a quick color summary of the Munsell color, then at the bottom is the closest matching color from that manufacturer along with a quick color summary of that color. If anyone wants to see more detailed spectrophotometer data on any of the colors let me know and I can post that.

This data is 'supposed' to be accurate and spectro values provided by the manufacturers, but I am not going to give them a 100% at this point. What this does give us are some very close matches that can be narrowed down, and like we did with the laminates then have the most interesting ones analyzed.

I have never heard of some of these paint companies so some potential matches can probably be weeded out due to unavailability for most people. If anyone on here is familiar with the companies please speak up with any information you have.

Here we go...

Munsell N8 will be first since we know RP Imaging sells a paint in this color and we now know who makes it.

Munsell N8/Dunn Edwards
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l190/wbassett/Munsell/Munsell_N8_DunnEdwards.jpg

Munsell N8/Martin Senour
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l190/wbassett/Munsell/Munsell_N8_MartinSenour.jpg

Munsell N8/Sherwin Williams
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l190/wbassett/Munsell/Munsell_N8_SherwinWilliams.jpg

Munsell N8/True Value
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l190/wbassett/Munsell/Munsell_N8_TrueValue.jpg

Next are some close matches to Munsell N9

Munsell N9/Brunning Paint
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l190/wbassett/Munsell/Munsell_N9_Brunning.jpg

Munsell N9/Caparol
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l190/wbassett/Munsell/Munsell_N9_Caparol.jpg

Munsell N9/Colortrend (Take a close look at this one... this needs some further data for certain)
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l190/wbassett/Munsell/Munsell_N9_Colortrend.jpg

Munsell N9/Dunn Edwards
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l190/wbassett/Munsell/Munsell_N9_DunnEdwards.jpg

Munsell N9/McCormick (Here is another one that deserves a closer look)
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l190/wbassett/Munsell/Munsell_N9_McCormick.jpg

Munsell N9/Sherwin Williams
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l190/wbassett/Munsell/Munsell_N9_SherwinWilliams.jpg

There are two other companies but one looks like it is automotive paint, and I couldn't find anything on the other... they are Sikkens, and Sico.

If anyone is familiar with any of these brands (some are obviously well known names) let us know and we can thin this list down and then try to get some color analysis to cross check the above values. If the data the manufacturers provided is accurate, then we have some very interesting colors to start testing.

<^..^>Smokey Joe

10-25-06, 03:19 AM

Nice bit of information.

As a comparison could you show the values for non-neutrals. Like the typical Lamb Black in white. Typically most retailers of paint use a standard base white for this and is also the source of many push issues some get.

Dulux use 620-04912 Vivid White for example, have no idea what this is like in RGB values.

Also another issue is that mixing isnt totally perfect everytime. Especially with small volumes. One droplet can cause adverse effects for us. We need a way of testing a pot before applications.

wbassett

10-25-06, 08:39 AM

I can show some swatch comparisons, but it won't be in the above format. The reason is the software doesn't do two input samples, it takes one spectro sample or manually inputted data and then searches the database (by manufacturer) for the closest matches)

A while back we had a thread going about screen color matching with a very interesting discussion about colors that was led up by Prof55. He provided a very nice color swatch of various commercial screens and paints that had been analysed. The chart gives a nice visual representation of what the colors look like and how they compare to each other and also has the RGB values.
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l190/wbassett/Swatches/swatches.jpg

I took the RGB values and plotted them on a graph. I like the graph in addition to the swatch chart because I can see the order from light to dark, plus when graphed you can see the color curve better. We always look for a neutral color, but it is interesting to see a lot of commercial screens are slightly green deficient. Prof gave a few possible explanations for that and I'll post them here when I find it again.
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l190/wbassett/ColorSwatchGraphcopy.gif

I think we have some interesting colors to play with. I plan on getting a gallon of Rosco and a gallon of the Munsell N8. I want to send some out for a spectro test so we can confirm if the GTI paint is as neutral as claimed.

wbassett

10-25-06, 12:13 PM

Also another issue is that mixing isnt totally perfect everytime. Especially with small volumes. One droplet can cause adverse effects for us. We need a way of testing a pot before applications.
That is always going to be a problem.

This is where the commercial companies have an advantage over what we do here in DIY. They literally have millions to spend on R&D and QA and their tolerance levels are very tight.

I tend to think that if we identify a color for both N8 and N9, say for instance say Gray Screen at 199 203 203 for N8, and it tests at that value, there probably would/could be a slight variance between cans... but I would say a point in either direction isn't going to make a blaring change. Even what you guys are doing over in the RGB thread is going to be subject to this to an extent, so unless the person mixing it totally screws up the mix I would think it should be fine for a simple one can solution.

Now the GTI Munsell N8 paint I would expect to be dead on for every batch, but I wouldn't call that a simple one can because it's not available locally and it costs too much for what the average person is looking for.

wbassett

10-25-06, 06:50 PM

Yeah I'll pull up N6 and N7 when I finish with work.

(Incase anyone is confused as to this post, it was a reply to a post that was deleted for unknown reasons.)

wbassett

10-25-06, 07:21 PM

I really couldn't find a match for N6 or N7

Munsell N6
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l190/wbassett/Munsell/Munsell_N6.jpg

Munsell N6/Sherwin Williams
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l190/wbassett/Munsell/Munsell_N6_SherwinWilliams.jpg

Munsell N7
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l190/wbassett/Munsell/Munsell_N7.jpg

Munsell N7/Sherwin Williams
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l190/wbassett/Munsell/Munsell_N7_SherwinWilliams.jpg

I'll look at the rest of the paint manufacturers and see if there is anything that is a closer match than what Sherwin Williams has.

wbassett

10-25-06, 08:26 PM

look at how popular the Grayhawk and Firehawk are and they are pretty dark in my opinion.

I don't like any of the Sherwin Williams colors as compared to N6 and N7, I'll look at the other paint manufacturers listed and see if there is a better match. I am very interested in checking out the matte finish Sherwin Williams has. Of course that really doesn't matter much for those that may try some type of top coating on one of these.

wbassett

10-25-06, 08:43 PM

Thanks for the NR & N7.

I see many people say that a particular shade is too dark but that's their opinion. For example a lot of prople think Silverscreen is too dark but recently I have been quite surprised how good some of my experiments look and they are a lot darker than Silverscreen. Mind you my experiments include high quantities of mica so on axis they can produce white images quite well. I have noticed that as you move off axis the color of the base paint becomes more dominant. Anyway it is my intension when I offer up neutral gray versions of the Pearl mix that I will start with a shade or two darker than I would want and offer at least 3 shades between that and white.

Anyway that's why I asked for the darker shades.
Thanks.
I actually thought SS was a rather pleasing color and wouldn't mind painting a room with it, but I didn't like it for a screen, not because it was too dark, but because for my projector and tastes I couldn't adjust the colors in. I am starting to come up with a theory on why it works for some and not others... I have a business projector, it does the job and is super bright, but I am starting to wonder if being a business projector it's made with florescent lighting in mind... that's just a swag on my part though (Silly Wild Ass Guess) but I think I'll call Sharp none-the-less and just ask them.

And I know I said it earlier, but this thread wasn't to compete with any advanced mix out there, I was looking around and thought I found some very nice looking, and very neutral grays for a one can screen. Of course some of these might make a nice base coat for some future mix, who knows... personally... the only one I would really consider for an advanced mix would be the GTI N8 because that is supposed to be guarenteed neutral and should be consistant from can to can. I only say that because house paints are not considered the best quality paint, and what you guys are doing with the advanced mixes has gone beyond using low end components. At $68 a gallon and with claims of matching ISO specs GTI doesn't seem low quality to me... Tiddler want a quart when I get my gallon of it?

wbassett

11-02-06, 08:03 PM

The past couple days some of the advances mixes got a renewed interest, I thought I'd bring this one back around to page one so it would be easier for people to find.

There are some good looking grays here. One I want to test as soon as I can is Sherwin William's Gray Screen. It's pretty close to Munsell N8 in color and is only slightly red deficient at 199 203 203.

For anyone that wants to test or try this one, get it in the matte finish. That finish is more durable than flat and as I said earlier it is between an eggshell and flatt finish so it's not going to have a lot of sheen to it.

schooner2000

11-02-06, 09:06 PM

I'd like to maybe give that grey a go with poly and pow. Might make for an interesting and simple solution. Granted it would lighten up a bit in the mix. Do you have a swatch of it to compare in color/darkness with SS? I'd like to see them side by side.

wbassett

11-02-06, 10:23 PM

http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l190/wbassett/Swatches/SilverScreen_GrayScreen.jpg

You can actually see the bluish hue in Silver Screen when it is compared to a more neutral color gray.

WAY back a long time ago there was a thread discussing colors. It was pretty interesting (to me at least). If it would have kept going the logical progression for the discussion would have been RGB, especially since it was talking about spectro data and the RGB equivalent, read through it sometime when you get a chance.

One thing Prof brought up in the Screen Sample Color Match thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=704900) was basically we have been conditioned to see colors slightly different than they really are. For instance, gray... most house paints have a shift to them, take Silver Screen, it has a blue push. A true neutral gray may actually appear greenish (Screen Sample Color Match ) to some people and it's not really a 'pretty' color. Silver Screen is kinda 'cute' and definitely a more apealing gray than Gray Screen as far as something I would consider painting a room.

schooner2000

11-03-06, 06:35 AM

Thanks. Yes Silverscreen certainly has a blue tone to it. Unless you compare it to another sample however it isn't that noticable overall however I was jsut finding the skintones a bit off with mine and hence why I wanted to move away from it to more nuetral. The sample really shows this. Be interestign to see how that grey holds up in actual use in terms of blacks and color reproduction.

biglyle

11-03-06, 08:38 AM

its so blue that it makes the grey look green. Thats the problem with people trying to eyeball a true grey. If the first sample isnt perfect, the rest become skewed because of our own crappy perception.
Being able to actually test these samples is a total blessing, and I thank you guys for doing so.
You guys are what this forum should be about, true DIY'ers simply trying to make a better screen. No adgenda in sight.

Hats off to you.

wbassett

11-03-06, 08:51 AM

:)
Lyle I think when data, tests, and specifications were brought in to play it really did change things.

This thread for instance isn't really a new topic, but it is a new way of looking at that topic. Before everyone went with the only thing they had available to evaluate something and that was their eyes. They would look at a color swatch and try to pick out the best looking gray. That's where the problem is though... it's not that we can't tell what is gray, as Prof pointed out and demonstrated in the Screen Match thread, since we were little kids we have been taught so see colors a little different than what the true color actually is. So when people were looking for a gray for a screen, they were looking at 'pleasing' colors, the ones they grew up being told were gray...

Take crayons for an example. That's one of the first way kids discover and learn colors. Gray is ugly... trust me on that one, from being in the military for over 13 years I learned to HATE gray and certain shades of green! Anyway, nobody would paint a room a real gray, it would look horrible. So the paint companies alter it some by adding blues or different pigments to get what everyone 'thinks' is gray and that way people will buy it.

We all know from shooting onto our walls that what looks nice on your wall doesn't mean it's going to make a good screen. Sometime it may, but the odds are it won't.

So I started this thread because people are always looking for a neutral gray, and saying there are none you can buy so 'we must make one'... well the GTI Munsell N8 IS neutral, and although some of the colors I have listed above are not completely neutral, they are very close (closer than any of the off the shelf grays I have been seeing people use and recommend) and will work for our purposes.

Now the problem is to get people to accept them. I actually told people about the GTI gray RP Imaging sells a long time ago, and after I found it, I discovered others had already run across it, but at $80 a gallon it was more than people wanted to spend. The paints I matched through the database are not $80 a gallon, so hopefully others will start testing those out too.

biglyle

11-03-06, 09:19 AM

YES, it really is amazing what hard data and facts can do to an argument isnt it? ;)

wbassett

11-03-06, 09:36 AM

YES, it really is amazing what hard data and facts can do to an argument isnt it? ;)
Unless you're arguing with my wife ;)

Topher

11-03-06, 03:29 PM

I've been reading this forum for a couple of weeks now trying to decide on a cheap way I might get a better picture from my PJ. It's a year old Hitachi PJ-TX100 with about 850 hours on the bulb, so it's getting dimmer. It's mounted about 14' away from a 120" Behr Quietude painted screen, but I'd like to try to get a little gain without breaking the bank.
I read in another thread about adding poly to the paint to up the gain. What's the proper paint/poly ratio? I seem to remember something about 25% poly, but these threads run together after a while of reading. :)
Edit: It's in a completely light controlled basement, but I like to have some abient light when I'm getting a beer.

wbassett

11-03-06, 05:05 PM

Topher I was really hoping Bud, benven, or one of the guys that work on the advanced mixes would answer your question. I'm sure they will when they see this. I have not develed into poly mixes yet and am just as interested in top coat mixes myself.

I know you haven't expressed any concern that this wasn't answered yet, I just wanted to say it's been seen and I am sure you'll get an answer soon :)

Topher

11-03-06, 10:42 PM

Thanks wbassett.
Here's a pic taken with my Olympus FE190 set to candlelight mode (no flash). The blacks are actually darker & the colours more saturated, but the camera holds the exposure to make up for the low light.
The pj's set with brightness at 7, contrast at 17, iris at 6 & whisper mode.
There are 2 potlights on at the back of the room (dimmed about half way) & 2 incandescant bulbs on at the end of a short hall at the rear of the room.

schooner2000

11-04-06, 08:54 PM

wbassett - What is the darkest neutral grey paint you have founf so far? I'm thinking something for us with a straight poly topcoat. Was thinking it may require the darkest since the poly will probbaly lighten the overall look of it a bit. Any suggestions?

wbassett

11-04-06, 09:22 PM

wbassett

11-04-06, 09:30 PM

I found some dark ones that didn't push too hard (red and blue were fairly even in values with a slight green deficency) but I haven't found anything that is really close to neutral under a Munsell N8 shade, not yet at least. Bruce says he has a Firehawk clone, so that may be worth checking into, and if some gain and depth can be added to Dove Grey that could also be a contender. But I think Dove Grey needs a lot of play time to get it to a really viable option.

I think we nailed Grayhawk colors, but going darker needs more work but in '07 I think we'll have that down too in here.

schooner2000

11-05-06, 06:56 AM

I think your right wbassett we may be on to some good stuff this year. Tiddlers recent posts about a simple clear matte topcoat shows a lot can be done with simple solutions. The fact he was able to improve the look of SS that is far from neutral gives some hope. Imagine what this could do for a neutral grey that is on par with an actual commerical screen color.

You have done a lot of great work nailing down the neutral greys, I think now we have a great starting point for a base. The next step will be to see how many and in what mixes of base to poly to create a top coat.

Perhaps we should put together a list of the local suppliers that carry each of the neutral greys so we can start experimenting.

schooner2000

11-05-06, 07:01 AM

These guys really need to add a "screen" to their color visualizer online painter app ;-)

http://www.sherwin-williams.com/pro/paint_colors/paint_color_trends/2006/fifth_avenue.jsp#

schooner2000

11-05-06, 07:37 AM

If we were to topcoat one of these neutral greys, I wonder wha tthe best finish type is for the base coat paint - matte, flat, eggshell, gloss? Anyone have any thoughts. Since the top coat is matte would it make sense to use a non matte base or might that cause hotspotting?

<^..^>Smokey Joe

11-05-06, 08:05 PM

Been searching through some local ranges here. Found plently of choice within close values too munsell RGB and if I want to shift towards Red I have choice.

From this web site, although probably not avaliable to you guys in the US.
Anyone in AUS or NZ could use this.

Click on the grey palette scale on the right for the shade range. (http://www.resene.co.nz/swatches/resene_find_a_colour.htm)

Heres some typical values.

Colour Name: Resene Double Concrete
Total Colour Code: N82-001-111

Chart Colour Code: 7GR15
Tone: White
Colour Palette: Neutral
RGB: 197 197 195

Converted LAB 83.44 -0.24 0.81

Colour Name: Resene Surf Spray Grey
Total Colour Code: N84-002-345

Chart Colour Code: 7GR25
Tone: White
Colour Palette: Neutral
RGB: 200 196 197

Converted LAB 83.53 1.31 0.10

Reflectance Value: 65

Colour Name: Resene Half Surrender
Total Colour Code: N85-002-225

Chart Colour Code: 6.5GR48
Tone: White
Colour Palette: Neutral
RGB: 202 204 204

Converted LAB 85.44 -0.57 -0.24

Reflectance Value: 65

Colour Name: Resene Mercury
Total Colour Code: N87-001-005

Chart Colour Code: 7GR20
Tone: White
Colour Palette: Neutral
RGB: 213 210 209

Converted LAB 87.59 0.75 0.76

Reflectance Value: 70

Colour Name: Resene Quarter Sidewinder
Total Colour Code: N69-005-322

Chart Colour Code: 6GR24
Tone: White
Colour Palette: Neutral
RGB: 156 151 155

Converted LAB 69.37 2.20 -1.09

Reflectance Value: 39

Colour Name: Resene Jumbo
Total Colour Code: N64-001-095

Chart Colour Code: 5GR16
Tone: White
Colour Palette: Neutral
RGB: 135 135 133

Converted LAB 63.25 -0.29 0.94

Reflectance Value: 32

Colour Name: Resene White Metal
Total Colour Code: M67-001-219

Chart Colour Code: -
Tone: Blast Grey
Colour Palette: Metallic
RGB: 148 149 148

Converted LAB 68.03 -0.47 0.32

Reflectance Value: 36

wbassett

11-05-06, 09:20 PM

Smokey Joe I like how they already have the spectro data up on that site. I have never seen a site with paints do that before.

<^..^>Smokey Joe

11-05-06, 10:22 PM

Yeah and they produce some nice paints too, currently painting my house with their range.

Actually talking to their shop reps proves to be difficult, but scanning this site I can scan enough info, the RGB and reflectance values(if correct) being very valuable towards what we need.

Actually what are the RGB values for the complete Munsell range. I might try and match up and paint a grey scale board.

I'm going to be using their Pearl shimmer, multishield(clear coat) with some grey's.
When I complete the house that is, otherwise the WAF will severally be compromised.
:D

wbassett

11-05-06, 11:57 PM

It's getting late, so tomorrow I'll see about getting the whole Munsell gray scale information up.

I think we should do the same thing I did with the laminates though... identify the best looking colors and weed this list down some to a handful. If we have too many then it gets overwhelming for testing, and just makes it more confusing for new people to try to decide which way to go.

Me personally, I think we should have two to three shades of white, and three to four grays. Of course ultimately there will be more listed than that because not all paints are available to everyone, so alternatives need to be identified. Kinda like the Do-able problem, it's an outstanding method, but it could be free and still be of no value to those that can't get it.

My personal mantra I keep saying is KISS... that applies to one step methods and one can paints, as well as advanced mixes.

wbassett

11-06-06, 02:29 PM

Smokey here is all of the colors in the gray scale

Munsell N1
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l190/wbassett/Munsell/Munsell_N1.jpg

Munsell N2
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l190/wbassett/Munsell/Munsell_N2.jpg

Munsell N3
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l190/wbassett/Munsell/Munsell_N3.jpg

Munsell N4
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l190/wbassett/Munsell/Munsell_N4.jpg

Munsell N5
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l190/wbassett/Munsell/Munsell_N5.jpg

Munsell N6
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l190/wbassett/Munsell/Munsell_N6.jpg

Munsell N7
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l190/wbassett/Munsell/Munsell_N7.jpg

Munsell N8
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l190/wbassett/Munsell_N8.jpg

Munsell N9
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l190/wbassett/Munsell_N9.jpg

<^..^>Smokey Joe

11-06-06, 02:39 PM

Cheers, I'll see if I can make up a cross reference list.

neekos

11-06-06, 08:06 PM

what kind of gain would a SW 7071 topcoat only give ? and what would the difference be if a 25% poly coat was applied ?

wbassett

11-06-06, 09:01 PM

Any of the off the shelf flat grays are going to have a gain less than 1.0. The Sherwin Williams matte finish has a slight luster but not enough in my opinion to make a big difference. Adding the poly/clear is going to improve the gain some, but more importantly it will add to the image depth.

Without actually measuring the gain of a mix like that it it would just be a guess. Put it this way, if it was more than 1.0 I would really be surprised.

wbassett

11-06-06, 09:40 PM

What are the RGB values? We can confirm right away if it's the same or close to Munsell N5.

wbassett

11-06-06, 10:20 PM

I'm not sure what that is. I tried looking up Munsell Hue 7.16B Value 5.25 in various ways, do you have any contacts at Liquitex that could provide any additional information?

I checked everything in the cataloged db (2752 Munsell colors cataloged) and couldn't find anything for a 7.16 or a 5.25. I did find some gray variants, 7.5B5/2 but I doubt that's it, that looks more like a bluish slate gray. I am sure I don't have all the colors in the database.

According to the Munsell Color Notation (http://korins.com/m/ml/), this would be a blue tint. The 'N' denotes a neutral color, so Munsell N5 is N5/0, but usually they just drop the 0.

I'm still playing around with this (triple code Munsell palette (http://www.triplecode.com/munsell/)) It has hue, value, and chroma, so I am sure it can be found on here (and it gives the RGB value as well once the color is found) but I just started playing with this and have to learn how to navigate it.

Here's another cool little tool, it's called BabelColor (http://www.babelcolor.com/main_level/screen_shots/Munsell_to_RGB.htm).

wbassett

11-06-06, 10:53 PM

Here's something quick that might help when looking at the artist colors.

Munsell designated ten hue sectors: R, YR, Y, GY, G, BG, B, PB, P and RP-- each correspond to exactly what you think (R=Red, YR= Yellow/Red and so on) so if a paint has a designator of B or G or anything like that on it, that will tell you the hue of it. From there the value and chroma dictate what the overall color and shade will be. Anything with a desinator of 'N' would be good.

wbassett

11-06-06, 10:58 PM

If you're interested in an N5 color I just emailed GTI to see if they make anything other than the Neutral 8 color-- I'm crossing my fingers that they either do or can. Even if it's slightly more than $60 a gallon for a custom mix, it's still around the $20 a quart price mark. A gallon would probably be an awful lot for one person, especially for just test panels, but that could be split among several of us, which would make the price a lot more attractive.

wbassett

11-06-06, 11:42 PM

Any particular shade? Darker than N8? I will be calling GTI tomorrow.

bruce can

11-07-06, 12:23 AM

What a great forum we have here .
There are other places where two grown men talking about grey paint for months on end would become boring, but not here :)

Bruce

Just razzing you guys do not let me interrupt :)

wbassett

11-07-06, 12:50 PM

I just spoke to a sales rep at GTI Graphic Technology (http://www.gtilite.com/)

They confirmed that this paint is in specifications with the Munsell standard. The good news is they make both N7 and N8. The bad news is that's the only shades they make.

The website doesn't show the paints and they don't have an online ordering system, but anyone interested can call Warren at 845-562-7066 and he can process an order for either shade.

neekos

11-07-06, 01:40 PM

wbassett

11-07-06, 02:25 PM

wbassett:

I'm going to try the SW7071 on a smaller screen. Would I need to mix the 25% poly first or can I apply it on its own later after the grey dries?

Also, aside from better blacks, would the gain be similar to 1.0 ? I wonder how the Firehawk and Grayhawk offer so much gain when they are so dark?
They are commercial screens and employ top coatings and reflective materials/textures to get the gain up.

I'm still working on the best top coating for these paints, make sure you the Gray Screen SW7071 in the matte finish. As far as gain from a single coat without a clear or poly, all the grays are going to be less than one. Even the Grayhawk RS is under 1.0 with a gain of .92 (the original Grayhawk was even lower). The FireHawk is higher in gain but has a smaller viewing cone.

bud16415

11-07-06, 03:05 PM

schooner2000

11-07-06, 03:06 PM

<^..^>Smokey Joe

11-07-06, 03:13 PM

I went through the resene paint charts of neutrals to try and match the N range up. Got some close values.

Munsells

N1~29 29 29

Colour Name: Resene Black
Total Colour Code: N24-000-098
Chart Colour Code: 1GR43
Tone: Ultra Deep
Colour Palette: Neutral
RGB: 30 30 30
Converted LAB 16.17 0.00 0.00
Reflectance Value: 4

N2~49 49 49

Colour Name: Resene Oil
Total Colour Code: N30-005-121
Chart Colour Code: 1GO42
Tone: Ochre
Colour Palette: Neutral
RGB: 49 51 48
Converted LAB 27.83 -1.71 1.67
Reflectance Value: 6

N3~ 72 72 72

Colour Name: Resene Armadillo
Total Colour Code: N42-004-127
Chart Colour Code: 2GR10
Tone: Mid
Colour Palette: Neutral
RGB: 72 74 70
Converted LAB 38.92 -1.66 2.04
Reflectance Value: 12

Colour Name: Resene Bleached Cedar
Total Colour Code: -
Chart Colour Code: -
Tone: WB Woodsman
Colour Palette: Woodstain
RGB: 69 70 71
Converted LAB 37.40 -0.26 -0.80
Reflectance Value: -

N4 97 97 97

Colour Name: Resene Storm Dust
Total Colour Code: N53-007-092
Chart Colour Code: 3.5GR13
Tone: Mid Grey
Colour Palette: Neutral
RGB: 101 100 95
Converted LAB 50.19 -0.43 2.81
Reflectance Value: 21

N5 123 123 123

Colour Name: Resene Boulder
Total Colour Code: N61-006-148
Chart Colour Code: 4.5GR42
Tone: Pastel
Colour Palette: Neutral
RGB: 124 129 124
Converted LAB 60.57 -2.52 1.67
Reflectance Value: 29

Colour Name: Resene Gunsmoke
Total Colour Code: N60-005-127
Chart Colour Code: 4GR10
Tone: Pastel
Colour Palette: Neutral
RGB: 122 124 118
Converted LAB 59.01 -1.65 2.63
Reflectance Value: 28

Colour Name: Resene Monsoon
Total Colour Code: N59-005-322
Chart Colour Code: 5GR20
Tone: White
Colour Palette: Neutral
RGB: 122 118 121
Converted LAB 57.63 1.92 -0.87
Reflectance Value: 27

Colour Name: Resene Trojan
Total Colour Code: N59-004-237
Chart Colour Code: 4GR48
Tone: Pastel
Colour Palette: Neutral
RGB: 117 120 120
Converted LAB 57.61 -1.08 -0.45
Reflectance Value: 27

N6 149 149 149

Colour Name: Resene White Metal
Total Colour Code: M67-001-219
Chart Colour Code: -
Tone: Blast Grey
Colour Palette: Metallic
RGB: 148 149 148
Converted LAB 68.03 -0.47 0.32
Reflectance Value: 36

N7 175 175 175

Colour Name: Resene Bombay
Total Colour Code: N75-001-199
Chart Colour Code: 6GR12
Tone: White
Colour Palette: Neutral
RGB: 174 174 173
Converted LAB 76.32 -0.13 0.42
Reflectance Value: 48

Colour Name: Resene Eighth Sidewinder
Total Colour Code: N76-003-335
Chart Colour Code: 6.5GR24
Tone: White
Colour Palette: Neutral
RGB: 176 172 174
Converted LAB 76.10 1.52 -0.32
Reflectance Value: 51

N8 202 202 202

Chart Colour Code: -
Tone: -
Colour Palette: -
RGB: 201 200 195
Converted LAB - - -
Reflectance Value: -
Colour Chart/Range: Habitats Metallics

Colour Name: Resene Double Concrete
Total Colour Code: N82-001-111
Chart Colour Code: 7GR15
Tone: White
Colour Palette: Neutral
RGB: 197 197 195
Converted LAB 83.44 -0.24 0.81
Reflectance Value: 61

Colour Name: Resene Surf Spray Grey
Total Colour Code: N84-002-345
Chart Colour Code: 7GR25
Tone: White
Colour Palette: Neutral
RGB: 200 196 197
Converted LAB 83.53 1.31 0.10
Reflectance Value: 65

Colour Name: Resene Half Surrender
Total Colour Code: N85-002-225
Chart Colour Code: 6.5GR48
Tone: White
Colour Palette: Neutral
RGB: 202 204 204
Converted LAB 85.44 -0.57 -0.24
Reflectance Value: 65

Colour Name: Resene Iron
Total Colour Code: N86-002-236
Chart Colour Code: 6GR50
Tone: White
Colour Palette: Neutral
RGB: 203 205 205
Converted LAB 85.74 -0.57 -0.24
Reflectance Value: 68

Colour Name: Resene Midwinter Mist
Total Colour Code: N86-002-223
Chart Colour Code: 7GR12
Tone: White
Colour Palette: Neutral
RGB: 204 206 206
Converted LAB 86.04 -0.57 -0.24
Reflectance Value: 68

N9 229 229 229

Colour Name: Resene Half Concrete
Total Colour Code: N91-001-126
Chart Colour Code: 8GR15
Tone: White
Colour Palette: Neutral
RGB: 226 225 224
Converted LAB 91.80 0.17 0.50
Reflectance Value: 78

Colour Name: Resene Seashell
Total Colour Code: N92-001-292
Chart Colour Code: 8GR60
Tone: White
Colour Palette: Neutral
RGB: 227 225 224
Converted LAB 91.88 0.45 0.62
Reflectance Value: 80

Colour Name: Resene Selago
Total Colour Code: V93-012-298
Chart Colour Code: 8V40
Tone: White
Colour Palette: Violet
RGB: 230 223 231
Converted LAB 91.89 2.93 -2.20
Reflectance Value: 83

Colour Name: Resene Snow Drift
Total Colour Code: N92-003-122
Chart Colour Code: 8GR10
Tone: White
Colour Palette: Neutral
RGB: 227 227 220
Converted LAB 92.17 -0.83 2.66
Reflectance Value: 81

Colour Name: Resene Wan White
Total Colour Code: N93-005-105
Chart Colour Code: 8BO31
Tone: White
Colour Palette: Neutral
RGB: 228 226 220
Converted LAB 92.05 -0.15 2.52
Reflectance Value: 82

Colour Name: Resene White Lilac
Total Colour Code: B93-010-266
Chart Colour Code: 8V50
Tone: White
Colour Palette: Blue
RGB: 231 229 232
Converted LAB 93.11 0.93 -0.90
Reflectance Value: 83

Colour Name: Habitats Metallic Silver
Total Colour Code: -

<^..^>Smokey Joe

11-07-06, 03:19 PM

Heres an interesting find whilst searching their charts.

Resene Filmpro series (http://resene.co.nz/swatches/chartsearch.cgi?1)

wbassett

11-07-06, 03:39 PM

That's the Sherwin Williams Gray Screen right?

I would add the 25% Minwax Clear Satin Poly to the paint. I would also add 10% to 15% distilled water. The poly will help the paint flatten out and produce a smoother surface. The water will make the paint layer thinner and smoother also.

Paint this over a good white primer.

If you feel it needs a bit of a boost then top coat it with the Behr "Flat" poly. This will increase the gain with a viewing cone that crosses over the flat paint at about 45 degrees.
Neekos that mix will also keep the color base so you won't have to worry about it changing from the original specs.

Not having an HD70, does it have different modes? One that might be better at night and one during the day?

My projector doesn't have modes persay, I have different gama settings. I use one for viewing with a light on, and one for lights out.

wbassett

11-07-06, 03:48 PM

Does SW only sell their paints at their own stores or do places such as HD carry the mas well? Lookign for someone that might carry the Grey Screen in Canada.

Also wbassett have you checked any ofthe Behr paints for a neutral grey, just curious who else might make one we can use as an option.

SW is only sold through their stores as far as I can tell. They have a store locator and there are stores in Canada.

Behr paints are not in the database I have, so I don't have company spectro data on their colors. The only spectro data I know of is the information here on AVS.

neekos

11-07-06, 06:49 PM

Neekos that mix will also keep the color base so you won't have to worry about it changing from the original specs.

Not having an HD70, does it have different modes? One that might be better at night and one during the day?

My projector doesn't have modes persay, I have different gama settings. I use one for viewing with a light on, and one for lights out.

I tried all the different modes, it always appeared washed out. The dimmer setting was better but not by much. Would my walls and ceiling make this problem that much worse? they are peach colored.

wbassett

11-07-06, 07:01 PM

Light colored walls will reflect back light from the screen, in essence creating it's own abient light problem. Most people don't want to paint their living room ceiling a dark color let alone black. The higher gain the screen is, the more light that gets reflected off of it. If it's a really bright screen and there are reflective surfaces around it, that light will get bounced back and wash the image out some.

neekos

11-07-06, 10:34 PM

Thanks Tiddler.

Yes, I tried the different setting, lamp mode as well. This thing just would not and could not calibrate.

I will give the flat grey and Minwax a shot. It sounds promising. By the way, What sort of gain will the screen have ?

neekos

11-07-06, 11:00 PM

I have not used a DVE in years.

I've calibrated many sets in the last ten years, so I do have experience in it. SOme of the problem is the fact of me being used to my 42 inch HD plasma which I was compairing the HD70 to.

I have a feeling the screen was overwhelmed by the light because of the small size of the screen (65 inches). I definitely think the grey screen will help.

wbassett

11-07-06, 11:03 PM

Don't worry about gain, especially if you think you're over powering a screen right now... unless that is why you are asking.

A gray will be less than 1 gain, the poly is going to help it some but it won't be magic and cause it to dramatically increase, if it does you're probably going to have hot shot issues.

Where you will benefit from a poly/clear is it will add depth to the image, and some people perceive that as an increase in gain.

After exploring the options, we selected the settings most ideal for dark-room home theater -- low lamp, Cinema mode, with BrilliantColor at 5 or 6 and TrueVivid at 1. In this mode, our test unit measured 398 ANSI lumens.

At 398-756 lumens it's hard to imagine over driving a 1.0 gain screen, but you are reporting some issues so that's all that matters. I still say if you're having trouble overdriving BOC, going higher in gain isn't going to help the image from washing out.

neekos

11-07-06, 11:38 PM

actually, I will do some day viewing also which is another reason for the grey.

Thank you for the reply.

wbassett

11-10-06, 10:05 PM

I just got some Gray Screen-- SW 7071 in the matte finish.

I don't have the paint up yet (too dark to paint tonight, I like painting with plenty of light). It does look like a nice paint though. In addition to being a matte finish, it is made to be scrub-able. The display in the store has two panels, one flat and one of the matte. There is a water marker and you can draw on both panels. Needless to say the flat was ruined, but the matte wiped right off, in fact when water was sprayed on it most of the marker came off when the water hit it, so this is very durable for a paint. Oh... Sherwin William is open Sundays for people that tend to work six days a week like I often end up doing...

Now for the bad news, well maybe not bad but not so good... First it only comes by the gallon. That's enough for at least four screens, so there is always the option of splitting the cost with someone, or a few someone's. Price-- It's $40 a gallon. Not really bad considering it's the only neutral matte gray paint I have found that you can clean very easily. So that still only comes out to $10 a quart, which isn't bad. I couldn't help thinking though that for a little bit more I could have ordered the GTI Munsell N8, but I wanted to give this a try since it is something everyone should be able to get very easily.

I have some polyacrylic as well as a clear matte finish that I am going to test a few things out that will hopefully add some depth to the image.

As far as I know I am the first person trying this as a screen, well at least on AVS. With a name like Gray Screen, I am sure it has been used by people just as Silver Screen has a catchy name and caught people's attention. I'm sure the base coat will produce a nice image, but if the top coat tests show promise I'll send a sample panel off to get some gain tests and color analysis to make sure the top coating didn't alter the neutral base color.

So we should have some real world testing done soon with a paint very neutral and very close to Munsell N8 in shade.

neekos

11-10-06, 11:28 PM

Bill:

I'd like a full report by 9am...Get to it MAN! :D

wbassett

11-10-06, 11:47 PM

lol 9AM... yes sir! (you of course didn't say what day ;) )

I will have a base coat down tomorrow for sure. I may even have a top coating down by Sunday, but I am not sure if I want to try a few test panels first. I'll definitely report back, and if I can figure out how to get good screen shots (for some reason mine came out blurry and not even close to how my SS, Kiltzit, UPW, and DW screens really looked so I never bothered to post them)

It really does take a few days for a painted screen to fully dry and cure for the best image. That really is one of the great advantages of the laminates... it may take a few days for it to come in, but you can literally make the screen in one afternoon and it is ready to go with no waiting for 'curing'. My SS screen did tone down some after a week, but I still just could not accept the color shift so I repainted it with UPW before moving on to Designer White. I will report initial impressions, and then after a few days I think it will be safe to call it a finished screen and report on how it looks then. This time of year is really nice because it gets dark here around 5PM so I don't have to wait until late to start showing flicks. I do want to check this out with some lights on and sun light (my windows have a 60% reduction film on them, so keep that in mind)

schooner2000

11-11-06, 06:13 AM

I'd like to know how it performs without a top coat as well, jsut for comparison purposes if you can ge ta chance. Should be interesting to see how it turns out. Too bad it is only by the gallon though.

Patrick Mckowen

11-11-06, 09:33 AM

wbassett

11-11-06, 03:25 PM

Here are the first shots. Now, keep in mind the paint is still wet and looks blotchy because it's starting to dry and some areas are still wet. Also this is the first coat. After it dries I may hit it lightly with a 3M sanding sponge, I'll have to see if there is any imperfections when it's fully dry.

This is a shot with the first coat on, still drying as I mentioned. The paint looks pretty light in the container, but when I started putting it up it is the darkest gray I have used to date.
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l190/wbassett/Gray%20Screen/Picture163.jpg

The next shot isn't anything fancy as far as a screen image or test pattern or anything like that. It's just the HD931's welcome screen. This is at 2:45 PM and I have tons of light issues during the day as anyone that knows me is aware.
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l190/wbassett/Gray%20Screen/Picture159.jpg

Just for comparisons, I pulled the picture of the initial screen size test on just the liner paper.
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l190/wbassett/006_screen7.jpg

This one is from the doorway to the room. You can see the one window to the right of the screen, and to the left is a bay window that is around 6' wide and the windows themselves are a little over 6' high... lots of windows and light problems. I put the menu up to see if I could even read it during the day...
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l190/wbassett/Gray%20Screen/Picture160.jpg

This one is from the doorway with the welcome screen up.
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l190/wbassett/Gray%20Screen/Picture161.jpg

Here is a comparison shot on just the liner paper from the same angle. Both of these shots were around the same time of day so they are similar settings. I wish I would have taken some of the screen on these angles and with the same image when UPW was up. I can go back and do it with DW when I put that screen back up, so this will be an interesting test/comparison.
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l190/wbassett/005_screen5.jpg

Like I said and I want to emphasize... this is the first coat and the screen is still wet so these are not going to be very good representations of what it will look like when it has a couple of good coats up and it's totally dry. (If anyone is curious, my temporary border is nothing more than 3M painter's tape... I looked for black hockey tape but couldn't find any...)

Also it was requested to show how it looks before any top coating is applied, so when I get the second coat up and it's dry I will take some better shots with some test patterns and screen images. So far I think it is looking very promising. especially being a one can solution.

Bill

wbassett

11-11-06, 04:15 PM

Hey wb

I to am very interested in your results. I will more then likely go with a painted solution as I do not think a built laminate screen will offer me the size I want -won't be sure until I have the projector up and running.

?? -- are you just painting a wall or some type of hung panel.

I was going to paint a wall -- having the drywall guy giving it a special effort to make it absolute flat and pit free.

Regards
Patrick
Patrick this is pretty much what started the whole laminate thread... I couldn't find any substrates in the size I needed. My walls aren't sheetrock either, and not smooth. They look fine as a wall, but just wouldn't work as a screen.

I put up liner paper (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=704723) and then put a skim coat of mud up. The liner paper covered any cracks and imperfections in the wall, and the skim coat smoothed out any uneven areas. It actually came out as a nice screen. Now I use it for a 'canvas' of sorts... I've been putting various colors up and use it as a big full size test panel since it doesn't matter... it's not my primary screen.

Patrick Mckowen

11-11-06, 04:28 PM

WB -- looking good so far -- I was very impressed based on the ambient light -- I think its going to be very good when all done -- cant wait to see the final.

Patrick

wbassett

11-11-06, 04:53 PM

Yeah Patrick I think it's showing a lot of promise, especially for being right off the shelf.

I have the second coat up and that's all for today, I lost too much light and without painter's lights I'll end up missing areas if I try another coat later. Besides, I don't think I need a third coat, but I'll decide that tomorrow.

I like these plastic gallon buckets it comes in... the top screws on and off and there is a built in pour spout so there is virtually no mess, and that's one thing I don't like about painting is it can be messy.

I really want to get this analysed. When I was stirring, it looked like there were some particles in the paint, maybe mica or something, I really don't know. I have no idea if I was just seeing things, and if not if they are for the matte finish or that's what makes this a washable paint. It is looking nice so far though.

As far as all the light and the image, I wouldn't make any judgements yet, that was only the menu and welcome screen... the true test will be for light scenes. Tomorrow I'll see if they wash out. Keep in mind I have some window film up (I still need to put it on the upper half of the windows) and I am also pounding the screen with upwards of 29fL of light from the projector, which is a fair amount of light. I'm sure it's a little less than what the calculator is saying, but it's still above the 20fL mark I'm sure. That makes as much of a difference with lighting as the screen. With Designer White we could actually have a lamp on and play cards while a movie was playing. It did take a little performance hit, but nowhere near what I expected, and that was with a white screen.

wbassett

11-11-06, 07:58 PM

I was comparing a few paint cards at Home Depot and found two grays that I thought looked very neutral. They are both Behr shades, "Sterling" 780E-3, and Behr "Quietude" 770E-1. Both of these have a very slight hint of green when compared to Silverscreen but not quite as green as the Wispy Gray. The "Sterling" being closest in lightness to my NG. The "Quietude" looks like a nice step between the "Sterling" and white.

I'm sure I have seen someone post that they used "Quietude" and I was wondering if anyone could comment on these Behr gray tints.
lol yeah someone else was asking me what the hell I was doing with paints! I started with a painted screen... well actually I started 12/13 years ago with a canvas screen for a CRT projector... but this time around my first screen was paint... laminates came later.

I still think paint is a very viable option to many. Also working with these darker shades of gray allows me to test the limits of my projector before going out and buying sheets of the darker laminates like Platinum and Dove Grey. I am also playing with top coatings for both laminates and these paints, and quite frankly paint is less expensive to experiment with. I'll get the same testing and data, so it should be something that is useable in both areas... at least I hope. :) ... and maybe we'll even find a nice one can solution out of this... Gray Screen is looking very nice.

As far as Behr, I have no personal dislike of their paint. It was a simple matter that they chose not to have their paint's spectro data included in the database with other manufacturers. So Behr very well could have some neutrals, but to me looking at endless color cards didn't yeild anything until after they were tested anyway. This way I was able to sort and view colors and eliminate many right away because there was spectro data already provided.

Tiddler I think if you had a sample of this, you may like it. Maybe not as a mix component or anything, but I think you would stand behind it as a very nice darker one can alternative... it really is looking that nice...

Someone else is using Quietude and likes it a lot, so that one has made it up on the wall for some real world testing.

wbassett

11-11-06, 09:35 PM

I did a real quick basic calibration. I have to work at 6AM for a few hours so I'll be crashing soon and can't play around with screen shots anymore tonight. I also have to do some reading on my camera and setting the manual setup. I can literally see the LCD 'blink' when I slightly move the camera and it auto adjusts the brightness and contrast. I want it shoot whatever is up there without the camera compensating, so hopefully tomorrow I can see if I can finally get this figured out.

What looks like distortion in the bottom right blue square is a watermark THX calibration statement.
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l190/wbassett/Gray%20Screen/Picture164.jpg
Quick note: One of the calibrations in the above screen is to make sure that the blue boxes in the lower left of the screen are two distinct shades of blue. When I was using SS, I could not get the boxes to look different shades. This time before I even started the quick calibration the blues were different shades. Actually, I didn't have to make many adjustments at all from my previous setting, but again this was a real quick 3-5 minute rough calibration.

http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l190/wbassett/Gray%20Screen/Picture165.jpg

Straight on
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l190/wbassett/Gray%20Screen/Picture168.jpg

From the door
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l190/wbassett/Gray%20Screen/Picture170.jpg

... nothing was edited in any of the pictures, not even to resize them.

I'll play around tomorrow with my camera settings and do some day shots in the afternoon, and then tomorrow night I'll do some nice night shots.

I think I am going to do a little more thinking and research before starting the top coat. Plus I want to give this a few days to fully dry and then check it before doing anything else to it.

Patrick Mckowen

11-11-06, 11:10 PM

Well I am really injoying this -- it is looking very good -- my only worry is that it will turn out nice and I will not be able to find the paint.

wbassett

11-12-06, 02:37 AM

Well I am really injoying this -- it is looking very good -- my only worry is that it will turn out nice and I will not be able to find the paint.
There are 10 stores listed in Ontario. I have no idea what the distances from you would be... Canada is a big country. Sherwin Williams does have a store locator though and they specifically have Canadian Provinces listed.

Patrick Mckowen

11-12-06, 10:06 PM

found one just up the road -- 4.3 miles

wbassett

11-12-06, 10:45 PM

found one just up the road -- 4.3 miles
:)

I ended up working 8 hours today... been a long week and I crashed so I haven't done anything today. I'll get it cleaned up and get a temporary border frame up tomorrow and get some picture. This is a REAL ugly gray paint! Which is good because a true neutral gray is an aweful looking color, and this definitely isn't something I would paint my house with that's for sure. I'm wondering if they 'unofficially' joined the pained screen market... wouldn't paint my wall this color but it sure makes a nice screen ;)

Topher

11-13-06, 12:25 PM

I'm sure I have seen someone post that they used "Quietude" and I was wondering if anyone could comment on these Behr gray tints.

I'm using Quietude for a 121" screen. I was worried that Silver Screen would be too dark & deaden the colours. My pj's a Hitachi PJ-TX100 with about 950 hours on the bulb.
I'm pretty happy with it. There are 7 halogen pot lights in the room, 3 at the back & then 2 rows of 2, & I can have the back 3 on about 50% & the rest at about 10% & still get a respectable picture. You can see my room at
hxxp://www.webshots.com/search?query=author%3Atopher5000
It's a little different now but I haven't updated the pics in a while.
I was going to repaint with SW Gray Screen, but I'm going to try a topcoat of Behr flat poly first. I'll take some more pics when that's done.

wbassett

11-13-06, 12:55 PM

I'm using Quietude for a 121" screen. I was worried that Silver Screen would be too dark & deaden the colours. My pj's a Hitachi PJ-TX100 with about 950 hours on the bulb.
I'm pretty happy with it. There are 7 halogen pot lights in the room, 3 at the back & then 2 rows of 2, & I can have the back 3 on about 50% & the rest at about 10% & still get a respectable picture. You can see my room at
hxxp://www.webshots.com/search?query=author%3Atopher5000
It's a little different now but I haven't updated the pics in a while.
I was going to repaint with SW Gray Screen, but I'm going to try a topcoat of Behr flat poly first. I'll take some more pics when that's done.
I don't think SilverScreen would deaden the colors as much as skew them. That isn't meant as a slam on SS-- to those that use it and can get the image adjusted in, great... but not everyone can.

Neutral gray really was an eye opener for me. I am still amazed at how dark the screen is and yet my whites are still white and other than adjusting my brightness and contrast some for my 'quick calibration' I didn't touch the color setting and the picture still looks great.

I have 1700 lumens, so we know it will work with projectors having the same lumen output or higher, now the question and test is how low can we go in lumens before we start losing image quality and things start to get dull and muddy. That would be the lumen level I would say is where a Munsell N9 gray would be a viable option. Projectors that can't handle a Munsell N9 shade are pretty much relegated to a matte white since Munsell N10 is white.

I will be getting some GTI N7 and N8. We can actually color match those and get a mix formula that should be able to be made at any good paint shop. I plan on doing some testing with the N7 shade to see if my projector will work with that dark of a screen, but I think N7 would be the darkest for my projector. Then again I was pretty surprised with the color I have up right now.

N6 is going to take a a stronger lumen projector than what I have, I am pretty sure of that, and anything N5 or lower is going to need a legitimate light cannon.

wbassett

11-13-06, 03:23 PM

Wbassett,

Did SW put a mix sticker on your Gray Screen container.
I completely forgot you asked about that, sorry it was a very long week.

BAC Colorant 02 32 64 128
B1-Black - 20 1 -
Y3-Deep Gold - 5 - 1

Maybe someone can use that for the mix, but keep in mind this is also a matte finish so some other paint company would only be able to do this in a flat, eggshell, satin, or gloss (but everyone knows not to use the last two, and eggshell is very questionable as well). There are definitely specs of something in the paint, and no I really don't think they are ground up gnats :p There are small black specs, and it looks like maybe white specs or flecks of something. What they are, I have no idea.

schooner2000

11-13-06, 03:57 PM

Where's the pics!! :-)

prof55

11-13-06, 04:20 PM

I completely forgot you asked about that, sorry it was a very long week.

BAC Colorant 02 32 64 128
B1-Black - 20 1 -
Y3-Deep Gold - 5 - 1

There's a rather interesting co-development taking place here - Tiddler settled on a mix containing Folkart Black and Yellow Ochre.

Looks like you guys are getting a good handle on what a gray should be! :)

Garry

wbassett

11-13-06, 04:46 PM

Where's the pics!! :-)
If you mean the ones I was going to try to do Sunday... I ended up working 7-8 hours which made last week a 7 day work week as well as doing the screen Saturday... I crashed Sunday and didn't do a damn thing!

wbassett

11-13-06, 05:02 PM

... My Folkart Pure Black + Yellow Ochre looks slightly green next to some grays and not so much next to Wispy Gray...

... and as we know that slight green look is exactly what we want. It means it is a real neutral gray, and like you said not a pleasing color that someone would paint their wall or trim with. Like I said earlier, I wouldn't paint any room or trim this color... bleech...

Topher

11-13-06, 06:31 PM

wbassett

11-14-06, 01:26 AM

Do we have any spectro values and RGB numbers on Quietude and Wispy as well as some of the others being mentioned? I want to keep this thread to neutrals... a point or two off doesn't concern me as much as if all three RGB values varied. I just don't want this to turn into a thread of a thousand grays and have people throw up their hands in frustration because there are too many and it is confusing-- then leave the thread and go to something else without even giving some of the original colors identified a chance.

What I would like to do is identify a couple off the shelf brands and colors that are spectro tested and match each of the Munsell shades. We can also probably duplicate the GTI N7 and N8 mixes and provide people with a formula they can take to their local paint shop and whip up a batch. I wouldn't call this a 'mix', it would be an actual formula that the paint store makes... so in essence it would basically be the same as an 'off the shelf' concept. The next thing I would like to do is start identifying lumen ratings and come up with a gray scale that shows what grays are best suited for specific lumen ranges.

Right now there are definitely two N8's... GTI and SW 7071 Gray Screen. Winter Mountain from True Value is also an N8 and very neutral at 200 201 201-- those are the type matches I am looking for.

N7 is only the GTI mix so far. I haven't been able to color match it with anything in the database. This is where I hope Glidden and Behr can come in and fill the gap. If not then we'll just have to get some GTI N7 and make have a formula made.

N9 has several that need field testing as screens or test panels, and Smokey found an online site that has a lot of potential colors across the Munsell scale. So we have three Munsell grays nailed down already.

I hope nobody took that the wrong way. I really like seeing people participating and taking interest in this thread, and I hope people understand what I am trying to do as well as not do... I want this to be a thread for neutral grays and be as easy as possible but make sure all the grays are verified and tested as neutral. After that we can possibly work on some 'step grays... grays between the Munsell colors. Finally the lumen chart to pull everything togther and make this easy and of some value to anyone interested. :)

prof55

11-14-06, 01:51 AM

Even though most paint manufacturers have an amazingly broad line of colors, the kind of gray we are looking for is not well represented - mainly because it's rather ugly! :p

But it appears a very useful mix can be made from titanium dioxide white, lampblack, and yellow oxide. It should be possible to come up with formulas for various gray shades (maybe N7 through N9?) using just these ingredients that will be fairly universal between paint manufacturers.

Todd: I couldn't find PY43 in Liquitex, but I did pick up PY42, which I believe is equivalent. I'll mix up some tests tomorrow!

Garry

Topher

11-14-06, 09:14 AM

I was hoping that the mixture would help with the rgb values.
How do we get the rgb values? Is this something a layman can do? What happens when a paint store colour matches?

wbassett

11-14-06, 10:14 AM

RGB values are measured with an instrument (I forget the name of it). Right now there are two people with these devices that I know of, prof55, and rfisher.

The database that wbassett is using has RGB values for various tints in some manufacturer's paints. Unfortunately the more common Behr and Glidden paints are not included in the database.
Yeah I wish they were included too. It's not that they were excluded, rather they chose not to have their spectro data listed.

Topher

11-14-06, 11:07 AM

One thing I've been pondering is if a neutral grey is really necessary, since most, if not all, projectors have colour temperature adjustments. Is it just so there's a good starting place? If the paint's close to neutral, wouldn't that be good enough? You should be calibrating your pj anyways, so wouldn't this correct any slight differences? Or would this only be corrected with professional calibration?

Edit: Sorry, wbassett. It's hard to keep on topic unless I actually think about the first post or two. I'll keep my posts to minimum or start a new thread.

bud16415

11-14-06, 12:24 PM

This thread is starting to get way off track.

This is about neutral gray paints... off the shelf paints that have data showing their match to the Munsell system of grays. As far as I can tell this is the first thread relating grays to the Munsell system along with specs and data to prove the match.

I have not seen any of the paints I listed or any of the data I provided in any previous threads, so I don't see this as reinventing anything. This is NOT a mix thread and was never intended to be one. I have no problem with getting a formula from the GTI N7 and N8 where anyone can take it in to a good paint shop, hand it to them and walk out ten minutes later with a can of neutral gray in the Munsell N7-N9 range. That would be a very good thing, but I don't call that a custom DIY mix, not in the sense of any of the paint mixes in the forum. It's a one can off the shelf, but you provide the formula for them to make.

I also see no problem recommending the grays I listed at the beginning of this thread. I have identified extremely neutral grays, and have one up right now as a test screen. Wispy, Quietude, and some of the others may be great paints, but I haven't seen any data or testing on them to show how neutral they are. If they test out and are neutral they will have their place here in my opinion.

If I am understanding this right, I identified off the shelf neutral grays that are readily available, and people are wanting to say don't use them and create a mix to make the same color... am I missing something here?

Sorry for the offending post. I thought I read a few days ago you were glad to see more people participating and the new directions the thread was taking within the realm of making a better neutral gray mix. I know you were looking into all named paints and trying to find close matches to the Munsell numbered neutrals.

I didn’t hear any dismay when Tiddler or proff55 were making suggestions over the last few days as to what goes into a true neutral so I assumed you were ok with the direction the talks were going.

I will remove my offending post and sorry for getting off topic. I’ll move it over to the neutral gray mix thread I started and anyone that wants to discuss the merits of yellow oxide LB gray can do it over there.

In the nature of keeping this post on topic have you thought about subdividing the Munsell’s into a finer subset. Munsell went from white to black and really in screen applications maybe only 5% of the full Munsell would ever be used.

Once again sorry for leading things astray. :o

prof55

11-14-06, 12:31 PM

This thread is starting to get way off track.

This is about neutral gray paints... off the shelf paints that have data showing their match to the Munsell system of grays. As far as I can tell this is the first thread relating grays to the Munsell system along with specs and data to prove the match.

I have not seen any of the paints I listed or any of the data I provided in any previous threads, so I don't see this as reinventing anything. This is NOT a mix thread and was never intended to be one. I have no problem with getting a formula from the GTI N7 and N8 where anyone can take it in to a good paint shop, hand it to them and walk out ten minutes later with a can of neutral gray in the Munsell N7-N9 range. That would be a very good thing, but I don't call that a custom DIY mix, not in the sense of any of the paint mixes in the forum. It's a one can off the shelf, but you provide the formula for them to make.

I also see no problem recommending the grays I listed at the beginning of this thread. I have identified extremely neutral grays, and have one up right now as a test screen. Wispy, Quietude, and some of the others may be great paints, but I haven't seen any data or testing on them to show how neutral they are. If they test out and are neutral they will have their place here in my opinion.

If I am understanding this right, I identified off the shelf neutral grays that are readily available, and people are wanting to say don't use them and create a mix to make the same color... am I missing something here?

You're right, there is a definite demand for "off the shelf" colors that will work. The popularity of Silverscreen is a testimony to the fact that many would like to just walk in, get a stock color, and walk out. And there are quite a few stock colors that come very close to neutral. A list of them will prove very useful to many.

I'm guilty of diverging from the topic, and I apologize. I'm thinking ahead here, perhaps to "level 2 DIY" when I speak of a universal mix system, and I appreciate you pointing it out. The vast majority of new DIY'ers would benefit from the "stock colors" list, and I tend to forget that not everyone is comfortable with having the guys at Home Depot look at them like they're nuts :D

The only problem I'm seeing (and this is why I diverged) is that the stock colors are DECORATOR colors, and as such they tend to avoid true neutral like the plague for the simple fact that it is rather ugly in a "decorator" context. Several paint companies (Behr included) have color palettes that include virtually every color BUT neutrals. Lots of grays, but all have a slight intentional push toward red, green or blue - just enough to make a pleasant blend with accent colors. Because of this, I believe your list of colors will be short, but I definitely applaud your effort. This will be a very useful list.

Garry

wbassett

11-14-06, 12:44 PM

Actually yes I have disscussed 'step grays'.

As far as a 'mix', the context was a formula to take into a paint shop, not something people would buy components and then try to mix it up at home. I would still call that a simple one step and not any different buying a premade color. If there is already a premade color then there isn't a reason to create a new one in my opinion. There are Munsell grays that don't match up with anything I have seen so far, so they may have to be created, but the ones already identified seem perfectly fine.

As far as the list being short, I actually think that is a good thing as long as it's something people can find easily. It takes the confusion factor out of things and is the same thought process with weeding the laminates down to a few colors. Too many and it's back to guess and speculating.

I think we have a lot of great advanced mixes already. A lot of them though seem to be looking for a neutral gray and then beef up the gain and depth. All I am saying is I really believe we have a set of easy to get neutrals and the next step to me is in top coatings.

wbassett

11-14-06, 09:10 PM

I'm still trying to figure out my manual camera settings. I definitely need to get a tripod on payday too. When I get everything figured out I'll put up better screen shots. That do things justice and I'll also get some comparison shots with DW up as a white reference.

All pictures are in 480i. When I figure my camera out for screen shots I'll do some 720P shots.

This one is from Chances Are (Chick Flick that my wife wanted to see on the projector) The DVD quality is pretty crappy, it's one of those $4.88 bargain DVDs, but it still looks pretty good up on the screen.
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l190/wbassett/Gray%20Screen/Picture018a.jpg

This is from the same movie, it's some plaque over in Italy. Again my camera settings are not doing any justice. I took this one because up on screen it is so crisp and clear it looks like you are actually looking at a reflective brass plaque.
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l190/wbassett/Gray%20Screen/Picture022a.jpg

T2 opening scene, lots of dark shots which can be hard to make out detail. There was no detail problems with these scenes and the explosions were vivid and bright while the blacks remained black.
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l190/wbassett/Gray%20Screen/Picture028a.jpg

Same scene but from the doorway.
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l190/wbassett/Gray%20Screen/Picture029a.jpg

Same scene but from the other living room. This is probably 20-22' from the screen and on an angle.
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l190/wbassett/Gray%20Screen/Picture032a.jpg

I figured out why some shots where blurry, that was me moving slightly so a tripod will fix that. I still am not sure about the settings though. The camera keeps auto adjusting even in manual mode, so I don't have something set right. I took some shots with the lights on, but when I looked at the pictures they had an orange tint to them. White scenes like in T2 are white on the screen, but blue in the pictures. When I get it figured out or if someone can PM me, I'll get a good variety of lights on shots, day shots and brights scenes at night too.

One thing I was pleased with in the pictures in the letter box area. The blacks are very black. No need for a masking system with this color that's for sure.

Oh... this is also an LCD projector. It's 6 years old (factory refurbished though), 1700 lumens, 250 CR, so a newer projector would look even better.

wbassett

11-14-06, 10:10 PM

My gallon of Quietude is:
Ultra Pure White
Colorant 0Z 48 96
B Lamp Black 0 4 0
L Raw Umber 0 2 0
Do you know what the part number is for Behr Flat Poly? I couldn't find any in my local Home Depot (near Niagara Falls Canada) & when I asked, they said they didn't have any.
I couldn't find any flat either. I got some Behr Crystal Clear Polyurethane, Clear Matte finish No 780. On the top of the can is stamped 6D130002 00966.

I also got some Minwax Polycrylic Clear Satin SM5153000.

Topher

11-15-06, 09:13 AM

wbassett, that looks pretty good. What were your steps? I know you put down a base coat of Gray Screen. Did you mix anything in with it? Did you put a top coat over it?

wbassett

11-15-06, 09:51 AM

wbassett, that looks pretty good. What were your steps? I know you put down a base coat of Gray Screen. Did you mix anything in with it? Did you put a top coat over it?
No steps, this is just two coats of Sherwin William's Gray Screen in the matte finish.

I got the clears for some top coating experiments and test, but I haven't used them yet.

bud16415

11-15-06, 10:04 AM

wbassett

11-15-06, 11:09 AM

So the paint is called Sherwin William’s (Gray Screen) SW7071 I think you posted earlier.

Can you fill me in on what’s in the mix as far as pigments? I know it’s a off the shelf paint and close to a neutral Munsell. I know you have posted before but could you refresh me as to what projector and screen size and if you have a guess as to how many lumens you are at now?

The images look great that you have posted. Do you feel the gray is helping in ambient light as compared to white? How do you feel black level performance has improved?
Yes it is Sherwin Williams Gray Screen SW7071
BAC Colorant 02 32 64 128
B1-Black - 20 1 -
Y3-Deep Gold - 5 - 1

RGB is 199 203 203 Munsell N8 is 202 202 202

There is actually a closer match, True Value's Winter Mountain at 200 201 201, and even though there is a True Value in my town, I was really curious about the matte finish that Sherwin Williams has.

The screen size is 54x96, the projector is a Sharp Sharp PG-C30XU. It's rated at 1700 lumens, but it's less than that with this setup-- reversing the fL formula (Lumens/screen size in square feet = fL) comes out to 972 lumens. Since the calculators always err on the side of manufacturers specs, I'd guess 850-900 lumens tops.

Right now this is the only daytime shot I have right now. I know it's not a movie image, but I'll get some of those up in the next few days. Keep in mind this picture was taken while the paint was still wet. The screen dried darker than the wet color.
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l190/wbassett/Gray%20Screen/Picture160.jpg

Blacks are absolutely black. Like you have stated with your screen, there is no need for a masking system with this color any my projector.

bud16415

11-15-06, 12:23 PM

Wbassett

My guess is that gray is different than mine but is also close to the same as mine if you look at just the darkness factor of the paint and not its closeness to true neutral. My guess would also be that with us both having the same size screens and both using XGA 4:3 projectors cropping to 54x96 I’m most likely 10 to 30% higher in lumens running in eco mode. My CR is higher and that might be why the same or close shade of gray is working well for both of us. And I bet you are seeing a much improved PQ over the SS. :)

Having had a lot of time thinking about the small changes the grays make when pushed just a little off color it stands to reason the brighter the color and the lighter the color along with does the push hurt or help the color look better, its in the classic light skin tones it would show itself first if the push was blue.

It’s a hard thing to relate this whole gray thing. But when you realize the whites you are seeing are still white it makes the blacks seem so much blacker.

This shade is a little darker maybe than I would have thought would work for you, but it seems good and I know you are thinking ….Hmmm maybe I could go a little more dark… :eek: I know because I’m always thinking that… :confused: but I think you are also thinking about that poly/ paint top coat now :cool:

By the way the wet paint ambient shot is looking pretty good. Can’t wait to see some with dry paint…. :D

wbassett

11-15-06, 01:50 PM

This is going to be long, just a warning.

There always seems to be an ongoing debate about gray. Either about its ambient properties, or that it takes more than gray to make an ambient light screen, or it kills whites and makes images look muddy… to it is the best type of screen a person could have. So who’s right and who’s wrong? Everybody and nobody.

A lot depends on a person’s personal tastes and what they like. Gray undeniably helps with black levels and contrast for projectors with less than stellar contrast ratios. It is also better with lighting in a room and can deal with ambient light better than a white screen can. I still do not feel this makes it a true ambient light screen, but as stated by others I agree it is better than a white screen and more appropriately should be called ambient light friendly.

The debate about grays is still roaring on. I find it interesting that for the most part everyone is saying the same thing but arguing different points. To me the debate breaks down to not whether gray is good or bad, but what gray should be used. Some have even said that grays are a passing thing and back in 2003 it was said by one person that
Grey screens as you may recall were introduced at least in a large part, to enhance the sorry CR most digital projectors suffer from. That's changing. The low CR high lumen projectors of yesterday are giving way to designs much more suited for home theater.

I feel a member of your talents is spending a great deal of time and effort on something that will be behind us in a year or two. Let's face it, no one would had ever given grey so much a thought if the blacks looked right on white screens. Ever been to a film cinema where they project on a grey screen?
What I'm saying in a nutshell: grey is a dying horse. I would enjoy seeing your talents focus elsewhere. Even I, one time defender of the grey, ME in particular, see the handwriting on the wall. Thanks for listening.(This was not a quote towards me since my talents are limited)

Hence the saying ‘Never say never’, and dealing with absolutes is always a touchy area as well. It is now the end of 2006; three years after that statement and grays are still very much in demand. Commercial screen companies have not dropped them; in fact they have increased the number of gray screens as well as enhanced their performance. The big question though is WHICH gray?

I find it interesting that neutral gray is viewed by some as the Holy Grail of gray screens. This has been debated for a long time now. Some have gone back and forth in this debate, stating neutral is the way to go and then later questioning why the importance of a neutral. I have questioned this myself since manufactured screens are not completely neutral. If you look at the color curve once the spectrophotometer values are converted to RGB, most have a distinctive ‘V’ curve. So the question is why would they do this? Here are some explanations I got: (And thank you Prof for providing this explanation)

1. They did it on purpose- so the screen will look good even if the projector is off a little. A red or blue push doesn’t look too bad, but a green push kills skin tone- and this is how many people judge image quality.

2. They did it accidentally- when gray came into popularity, they just used the most common standard, which is illuminant C (6774K). Many commercial grays are almost exactly on for illuminant C, but there are some that are not…

3. They did it ‘cause their cheap- Variation is much less important this way and pigments aren’t as critical.

So I asked the question if commercial screen companies aren’t concerned about their gray’s being neutral, should we? That’s like the opening statement about who’s right and who’s wrong… yes we should be concerned, yet no we shouldn’t… but both of those answers have a reason in my opinion.

If we look at what I call the ‘V’ curve for most commercial screens, we see they are green deficient, but usually the red and blue components are relatively balanced. There are instances where there is a slight blue push, or a slight red one, (or a slight deficiency). A ‘slight’ push in either of these colors can actually be beneficial in some instances. A slight red deficiency could help some with incandescent lighting since it leans in that direction, while a slight blue push can make whites appear ‘whiter’ (another color conditioning we all have had since we were born). The trick and key is knowing when the push is too much.

A few years ago DIY was dealing with these questions and ideas, but for the most part there was no data. The spectrophotometer tests that have been done recently, as well as the converting of that data to RGB values has done a lot in the way of understanding commercial screens as well as now knowing the color composition of DIY methods. RGB is widely debated by some as being useless when discussing screens. I disagree. It’s hard for the average person to understand CIE data and looking at those numbers isn’t easy for someone not used to what they mean to determine if a color is pushing to hard one way or another. RGB makes it easy to quickly see the color curve. If the ‘V’ is in line with typical commercial screens, then yes that color would most likely make a nice screen- as long as the color itself isn’t some wild off the wall color. If it is a white or gray then I would have no problem using it as a screen.

So I just completely contradicted myself when it comes to neutral grays? Not really. Even though it was just stated and shown that commercial screens tend to have a slight green deficiency, that doesn’t mean a neutral color is bad… just that the commercial companies strive for the best image across the widest range of projectors AND consumers tastes. As stated earlier, green can push hard even with the slightest increase in RGB value. Most people only do basic calibrations. This way the commercial screen looks good out of the box to most users and projectors.

Seeing color is a sensation, like hearing, taste, or smell. Sensations are not felt the same way by every person. Food tastes differently to each person. In the same way, there is no absolute color that is inherently seen the same way by every person. Nor is every person’s vision the same. This is where neutrals come into play.

Neutral gray will eliminate/reduce color contamination from reflected light. Even though slight variances in screen composition and colors will work fine, a neutral palate is the best at reflecting the colors back the most accurately.

Also different light sources affect the colors that you see. For instance, a color viewed under fluorescent light will look radically different when viewed under incandescent light. Fluorescent light adds green to colors while incandescent light adds red. (This is why a slight red deficiency in screen color can be helpful with incandescent lighting)

A front projection Home Theater system consists of several devices that all deal with color at some level, and in different ways. Projectors deal with colors being created by light, and the screen deals with colors being reflected by pigments. Because all of these components in the system handle color in different ways, color reproduction between them is not so obvious. They use different color models, have different color gamuts and different Gammas. Moreover their colors are influenced by calibration settings and environment. Again neutral colored screens reflect the light from the projector with the least amount of color skewing.

What really sold me was when I went from a bright white screen like Designer White to the SW 7071 Gray Screen. I haven’t done a full blown calibration yet, but in the quick setup I did I found that the more neutral the gray, the less color adjustment is needed. In my case and with my quick setup I did not touch the color settings at all between the two screen colors, only the brightness and contrast levels. I do feel the picture will be even better after a full calibration, but my point is with other grays I DID have to make some drastic adjustments to the color.

I am not abandoning any previous research and testing I have done. I think both can coexist… as long as the ‘V’ curve isn’t radically pushed by the red or blue components it will work just fine. Neutral grays however will allow us to go darker with fewer color problems than if the gray is not neutral and meant to be an aesthetically pleasing color as a wall paint.

Many people have been searching for neutral grays for a long time now. It’s not that they didn’t know what they were looking for; it has more to do with technology and more readily available data. Now we can actually see spectro data and the RGB breakdown of colors where a couple of years ago that type of data didn’t exist in here, at least not from what I have seen. Now that we found neutral grays, it’s kind of ironic that the discussion is pulling away from them and suggesting non-neutrals. Both will definitely work, and like I said earlier, everyone’s tastes are different. I think one benefit of a neutral gray besides allowing us to explore darker shades, is that since the color skew is at its minimum; once the screen is calibrated it stands a better chance of being pleasing to a wider group of people. I know when I finally found a ‘compromise’ with one gray paint I used, it still wasn’t optimal. Even though I probably could have gotten used to the color shift, anyone else walking in for the first time would most likely see it was off since they were not ‘adjusted’ to the screen themselves. To me that is a bad screen. People should not be told ‘Well you’ll get used to it…’ there should be no reason to.

I’d like to think what I just wrote will not be taken as anything personal by anyone since it was not meant that way. I have done a lot of research recently into colors and specifically grays. These are my findings and how I feel about gray for projector screens… I am by no means saying this thread is the definitive thread about neutral grays, or that everyone should drop what they have now in favor of them. I do however feel that neutrals have been found. My efforts now will be in the area of texture and top coatings, I have no desire to create a new mix or mix a new gray… that area is already covered by some very talented people.

(I will add some graphs and charts later on after work to hopefully make this a more enjoyable read...)

wbassett

11-15-06, 01:56 PM

Patrick Mckowen

11-15-06, 09:32 PM

wbassett

11-16-06, 12:22 PM

I dont care if you were obducted by little grey men and you are trying to find an outlet for it -- thats ok, go with it !

I am convinced and you havent finished your experiment yet. I will be going up to the store this weekend or next and getting a can.

Thanks
Patrick

PS -- did they hurt you!
Never had a run in with the little guys ;)

What projector are you using? I'm hitting this with a decent amount of lumens and fL at the screen... so keep that in mind.

As far as obsession, it was more of a statement and backing up what and why I am trying to do as far as this thread. It started going in the direction of mixes and non-neutrals and that wasn't the intent of this thread at all... there are hundreds of threads on those topics... a few on neutral grays, but none really about off the shelf true neutrals with supporting data.

As far as the 'Greys'... well if those little guys ever do visit me you can bet your butt I'm not going to ask about paint... I'll go straight for the Holodeck entertainment system! ;)

Patrick Mckowen

11-16-06, 06:56 PM

"What projector are you using? I'm hitting this with a decent amount of lumens and fL at the screen... so keep that in mind."

I will be getting a Panny PT-AX100U - good contrast (6000:1) and lots of light (2000) -- I love to watch SF so I am looking for anything that will enhance those dark scenes as much as possible.

Patrick

wbassett

11-17-06, 02:37 AM

Definitely not going to have a problem with the lumens!

Patrick Mckowen

11-17-06, 07:15 PM

wb -- whats the status -- so far 2 coats -- when are you going to put the clear coat.

Regards
Patrick

prof55

11-20-06, 03:35 PM

Bill - any new screenshots? :)

Garry

neekos

11-22-06, 10:49 PM

yeah Bill, more...more...

prof55

11-23-06, 01:56 AM

Better post some more screenshots, Bill. The crowd is getting unruly...

Patrick Mckowen

11-25-06, 08:10 AM

Good to have you back Mate -- looking forward to seeing some more shots.

Patrick

Patrick Mckowen

11-25-06, 08:26 PM

hi

Looks great -- I am 70% for this method and 30% for BOC --- I have not seen to many pics of BOC if any at all -- memory failure!

Watching Harry Potter on the new panny -- ax100 --- pic is on the wall with builders off white paint -- looks great -- cant imagine how fantastic it would look with your grey.

Later Patrick

prof55

11-25-06, 08:41 PM

Mighty fine shots, Bill. I think this proves that the right gray can do very good things, even with fairly high ambient light. :)

idf_reuben

11-25-06, 10:52 PM

I do see a lot of green cast in your images. Im working on something right now, and the forums wont let me post any links until i have 5 posts under my belt, this being number 5 I should be able to help with the color cast on your pics

idf_reuben

11-25-06, 10:54 PM

Wow! I really like how this came out. Im looking at getting a projector, probably the Mit HD1000U due to teh 1500 lu and price. Painting a screen is what I will have to do to keep the costs down. Thanks for all the hard work and constant updates!

I do a lot of photography and noticed your pics did have a green tint to them. This is more than likely a white balance issue. Since I dont know anything about your camera, the only way I could help out is removing the green tint from your pics. I used one of the pic with the gray scale and went off that. You should try Adobe Lightroom, its in beta now and free. Under the develop tab you can choose your eye dropper on the right and click the nuetral gray square in the pic, then apply them to the rest of your images.

idf_reuben

11-25-06, 11:26 PM

That's why I said first thing the camera is adding that, it's not in the images on the screen.

If you know what manual camera settings work best let me know. One setting I get a greenish hue, a different one it's blue... and one comes out orange, so its my camera.

I downloaded the manual for your camera. If you set your camera in manual mode then the white balance to "warm white" fluorescent lamps, that should cure the green tint. Yellow/orange cast comes from shooting under incandescent lightbulbs, so set it to "shooting in incandescent light". Shooting during the day with your windows open, I would try the shade setting first then the daylight. Shade may warm up the photo too much so just experiment.

Keep changing the white balance until you find the right one.

If your using a tripod then I would set your aperture priority to F8 for max depth of field so your images are sharp. Go ahead and leave your sharpness to normal unless you feel they are too soft. I assume your pausing the movie then taking the picture so the speed of the shutter shouldn't matter. I would also try setting your camera's