AFAIK (and I AM a noob at HDTV), it appears that there are currently no OTA DVRs manufactured now and I am curious as to why.

It appears that the Sony DHG-HDD250 is no longer manufactured unless I am mistaken.

What are my choices for an OTA DVR besides making my own PVR (rather not even though I build myown computers) and finding an EBay'd DHG-HDD250/500??

MikeSp

TiVo?

Series 3 can record OTA, both Analong NTSC and Digital ATSC including HD.


Jerry

TiVo?

Series 3 can record OTA, both Analong NTSC and Digital ATSC including HD.


Jerry
I'm looking for an OTA DVR also, just checked out the Tivo and WOW! It's 800.00...no thanks. Anyone have any other suggestiones preferably in the sub 400 range?

TiVo?

Series 3 can record OTA, both Analong NTSC and Digital ATSC including HD.


Jerry

I have to agree with BigEasyHD--$800 is waaaaaaaaay too high a price plus the monthly extortion fee for programming.

Somebody needs to manufacture a simple OTA DVR such as the discontinued DHG-HDD250/500 in the $400 range.

Here is a market that is completely open waiting for a few products to fill it.

MikeSp

well the problem is the economics of it. A harddrive of that size (two years ago) cost easily over $300 and then adding a quality HD tuner, another $200, that didn't even include the software and R&D. So the cost of making them couldn't be less than $500 from Sony. We knew that BB and CC got HDD250 for more than $500 and HDD500 for more than $700. Tweeter had to get rid off the HDD500s on firesale prices like $250 a piece because they were not moving. I bet Sony and its retailers lost huge amount of money on these items. Why would anybody repeat such money losing venture?!

Here is a market that is completely open waiting for a few products to fill it.I suspect that's just the problem, there really isn't much of a market, at least not at the moment. That's why anyone who was trying to fill it has discontinued their products. While DVRs are big in the cable/sat worlds, there are just too few OTA-only HD viewers. Then too, making a unit that is capable of both OTA and cable/sat appeals to a much wider audience willing to spend the $800 plus a relatively steep monthly fee. After the digital conversion is complete and more people have HDTVs, the landscape may change, though I doubt it. Even $400 is a pretty steep price for most OTA-only viewers just to record TV. Many OTA-only viewers either don't watch a lot of TV or are simply content with SD and their VCRs. :)

$400 really isn't an unreasonable price. Really, even twice that (the $800 for the HD TiVo) isn't that bad, when you consider what we're paying for the rest of our HD gear. And, for those of us who have been around for a while, consider what the inflation adjusted prices would be today for our first VCRs and DVD players. My first VCR cost almost double what I'd paid for the TV it was connected to.

And if the marketplace worked the way it once did, I suspect that HD DVRs could sell for these prices and move off retail shelves. The problem is that the market has changed. Specifically, most buyers are now accustomed to seeing a subsidized upfront price for any sort of set top box. Cable and satellite will *give* them standard definition DVRs, with the price made up in the form of the subscription fees that they will pay over the next couple of years. Satellite has an upfront charge for HD DVRs...but that charge is relatively small, with the rest of the cost coming out of that two year commitment.

So the result is that the $699 OTA HD DVR lands on the shelves next to a $200 HD satellite DVR...and doesn't look like a very good deal. Never mind the fact that you'll be paying the $500 difference back to the satellite company in coming years...most folks don't think that far in advance.

But I must say that I'll be passing on the $800 HD TiVo. Not because I object to the $800 up front, but rather, because I object to the "extended" cost of the unit -- that $800 plus $12.99/month for the next three years comes up to over $1200.

$

So the result is that the $699 OTA HD DVR lands on the shelves next to a $200 HD satellite DVR...and doesn't look like a very good deal. Never mind the fact that you'll be paying the $500 difference back to the satellite company in coming years...most folks don't think that far in advance.

I think this is one reason. The others would be that right now, the companies are able to sell every box they can make to a cable or sat company-and that's good for a few reasons for the manufacturers. First, the production runs are assured of being sold...you are not at the whim of the retail market. Second, you have zero support, as the software is updated by the Sat/Cable company, so any "issues" that arise are theirs, not so much yours.

Setting up my sony HDD250 was fairly easy...for a geek with net newsgroups to research......J6P would be doomed, and that would result in massive returns of working units. The newsgroups for E* and D* are full of discussions of bugs and the most recent software downloads..........

Next, by artificial scarcity, the HD DVR appears more exotic than it deserves to be. It's a purpose built computer, not magik, but as the cherry atop two or three other tiers, it forces the monthy bill WAY up, kind of the same way the sunroof on a car is always part of some $3500 package.

Long term, the rentals are a huge bump to the cable/sat industry. The last thing they want to see is your personal DVR with a CableCard stuffed in the back. Bye bye Perpetual DVR fees-why encourage such things ?

There is also the possibility that a DVR in private hands, not at the tether of a "provider", might be easier to crack.....

Better to just quietly let the HD DVR be a "provider only" game.

Meanwhile, there's a huge gap in the big box store. Walls and walls of big screens, with some even tuned to a real HD signal......surrounded by a zillion normal dvd players. There is one Blu Ray and one HD DVD player...and they are not moving........

Meanwhile, there's no way to time shift the HD, unlike SD. This may be the first time in CE history that the powers that be want to force upon us less functionality.- Like time shifting is not sooooo 1987.

If there is an analog shut off in 2009 (I personally doubt it), then this will be noticed. Until then, I'm taking very good care of my HDD250

AFAIK (and I AM a noob at HDTV), it appears that there are currently no OTA DVRs manufactured now and I am curious as to why.

It appears that the Sony DHG-HDD250 is no longer manufactured unless I am mistaken.

What are my choices for an OTA DVR besides making my own PVR (rather not even though I build myown computers) and finding an EBay'd DHG-HDD250/500??

MikeSp

OK, so you said you'd rather not, but since you build you're own computers, look into the MyHD 130. It works in even old computers (I've put them in 450mhz PII's and PIII's for friends). With its remote, it even feels like a piece of CE gear. Plus, you get the ability to archive your recordings. I set one up for a friend who is completely computer-phobic and he has had almost no problems with it.

In a perfect world, we'd be able to walk into a Best Buy and pick up an HD DVR from an aisle full of such machines, just like we used to be able to pick up a VHS recorder. But it's no secret that Hollywood would simply rather we not record things at all. The computer based card gives you a lot of that old freedom back, and then some.

What are my choices for an OTA DVR besides making my own PVR (rather not even though I build myown computers) and finding an EBay'd DHG-HDD250/500??

The Tivo is the only current model - might even be able to live with the $800 but the monthly free makes it way past stupid for OTA.

Other than an HTPC or eBay, you'll need to wait until next year. The law mandates that all DVD recorders with tuners must have ATSC tuners as well ... so by next summer you should have several units to choose from.

AFAIK (and I AM a noob at HDTV), it appears that there are currently no OTA DVRs manufactured now and I am curious as to why.

It appears that the Sony DHG-HDD250 is no longer manufactured unless I am mistaken.

What are my choices for an OTA DVR besides making my own PVR (rather not even though I build myown computers) and finding an EBay'd DHG-HDD250/500??

MikeSp
I saw some of the Sonys at Frys in Duluth a couple of weeks back. I do not recall the exact price, but know they were not marked down a lot. I have 2 units OTA only and my girlfriend has 2 on cable only. Have been very pleased with them. Even at the higher prices, I still come out ahead because of no cable fee, no digital upgrade fees, no rental fees,etc... To pay for cable and its related fees, that can be anywhere from $50.00 to $100.00 plus per month. You can see how quickly the fees add up per year, $600.00 to $1200.00 easily. So, even if a unit cost $1000.00, you would recoup that in short order.
I saw that Panasonic has a new unit coming out this year in Japan, and perhaps they may bring it out here as well. Here is a link to it:http://www.cdrinfo.com/Sections/News/Details.aspx?NewsId=18140
It is not cheap, but it is a true HDTV dvr and Blu-Ray unit, so I think the price is very reasonable when you consider those features.
Michael

DISH 622 receiver is only $200 to lease or $499 to buy.. plus 6 for the local fees (to get OTA programming channel info)

If you don't want the SAT channel.. add $5 for 'access fee'..

It's a little cheaper than Tivo's $13 a month fee.

Other than an HTPC or eBay, you'll need to wait until next year. The law mandates that all DVD recorders with tuners must have ATSC tuners as well ... so by next summer you should have several units to choose from.
Just because the law mandates that they must have ATSC tuners does not necessarily mean that they will be able to record an HD channel at full HD resolution (without downconverting or recompressing it) and then play it later at full HD resolution.

Other than an HTPC or eBay, you'll need to wait until next year. The law mandates that all DVD recorders with tuners must have ATSC tuners as well ... so by next summer you should have several units to choose from.

Yeah, I know what you mean. Love to have one, but the monthly is too high. There's no doubt they could vastly increase their subscriber number if the fee were lower, say $7/month like my cable DVR fee, or even lower if they wanted to poach a percentage of cable customers who just want local channels in HD and have gotten used to a DVR. I guess they've done the math and figure that "TiVo people, and you know who you are" will accept no substitute and will willingly pay that price. But there just aren't that many of those folks. They'd be better off reducing the monthly fee, then trying other revenue streams that flow out of a increased subscriber base. But whadda' I know? :rolleyes:

It is hard to believe nobody but TiVo is making them anymore. Amazing. There's a market, albeit a relatively small one, that everybody is just ignoring.

I'd pay good money for a Cable card (version 2) box that did OTA also and could be used instead of the POS Scientific Atlanta 8300, as long as it had Firewire outputs.

I'd pay good money for a Cable card (version 2) box that did OTA also and could be used instead of the POS Scientific Atlanta 8300, as long as it had Firewire outputs.

I certainly don't think my SA8300HD-DVR is a POS. I think it's a pretty darn fine box, all things considered. My only complaint with it is it doesn't seem capable of delivering full HD resolution. Others have commented on it's practical limitation of around 1300-1400 lines of resolution, and I've got a TV (Sony 34XBR910) that can resolve pretty much all 1920. But it performs its assigned functions like a champ, and the interface, while not TiVo elegant, works fine for me.

But it's not surprising we'd disagree about this box, Matt. I love my JVC 40k tape deck, too (actually a rebadged Marantz MV8300), and we all know how you feel about 'em. ;)

Uh, what?
Not delivering full resolution?
What would be the point of having a mpeg decoder chipset which would NOT decode at full resolution??

And your TV is CRT anyway, you'd be lucky if it actually has 1080 lines of vertical resolution.

I just built my first HTPC with a MyHD MDP-130. I spent about $600 and absoutely love it.

Uh, what?
Not delivering full resolution?
What would be the point of having a mpeg decoder chipset which would NOT decode at full resolution??

I'm just telling you what others (see some of "John Mason" 's posts on this issue) have measured using test patterns. There's some filtering going on in there and we're not getting the full 1920 lines out of the box.

And your TV is CRT anyway, you'd be lucky if it actually has 1080 lines of vertical resolution.

My TV has what Sony calls a "super-fine apature grill" and is one of those that can resolve full HD resolutions. They made one more model like this, the XBR960, and then stopped putting that tube in CRT TV's. Too expensive, I guess.

Even $400 is a pretty steep price for most OTA-only viewers just to record TV. My first VHS video recorder in 1978 was $1,000. Blank tapes were $25. It had a 69 channel OTA and a 12 channel cable tuner.
$800 and especially $400 is dirt cheap for what they do (other than that ridiculous monthly fee). You 'kids' under 35 don't know how well off you are.

To answer the question; greed. Between the NCTA, Hollywood and anyone else that has their hand in the copyright 'pot' they are all worried about someone making a copy of their precious program or movie without paying them for it. :mad:
The other part of the equation is lack of proper marketing through the manufactires. There isn't any real reason a DVR couldn't sell for under $500.

People are paying twice that for just a DVD player . :rolleyes:

My first VHS video recorder in 1978 was $1,000. Blank tapes were $25. It had a 69 channel OTA and a 12 channel cable tuner.

And it was HUGE, easily 2x the size of the latest VHS machines, 3-4 times the size of today's DVD recorders.

First one we got had a pushbutton tuner, each button had to be tuned with a thumbwheel, and little plastic numbers dropped into a slot to designate what channel each button tuned.
Got it sometime in the early 80's.


Jerry

And it was HUGE, easily 2x the size of the latest VHS machines, 3-4 times the size of today's DVD recorders.

First one we got had a pushbutton tuner, each button had to be tuned with a thumbwheel, and little plastic numbers dropped into a slot to designate what channel each button tuned.
Got it sometime in the early 80's.


JerryHad a GE just like that (2-head mono) from around the same time period.

Wore the heck out of it and still got about 5x the amount of usage from it compared to any model I've had since then :rolleyes: :) .

Better to just quietly let the HD DVR be a "provider only" game.

Great! Does that mean I can go down to my local TV stations and ask for an HD DVR? Will they rent one to me for $5 a month? :p After all, they are my "provider" of the HD signal that I watch. I wonder what their answer would be.

I will take care of both of my DHG-HDD250's. If I knew that they (Time/TVGOS) would work after Feb 17, 2009 (official analog shut off), I would probably buy a couple more as "back ups"

Just because the law mandates that [DVD Recorders] must have ATSC tuners does not necessarily mean that they will be able to record an HD channel at full HD resolution (without downconverting or recompressing it) and then play it later at full HD resolution.

Exactly, although I think that it mandates that they have an ATSC tuner or no tuner at all.

What would be nice (and keep the studios happy) would be a DVD Recorder that:

1) Has an ATSC and QAM tuner (don't care for NTSC, but would take it)
2) Recorded HD video to a hard drive (500GB/750GB)
3) Could downcovert to a DVD+/-R at 480i/p (keep the studios happy)

This would mean that I could watch my shows that I record in HD, but if I wanted to archive, it would only be "DVD Quality."

I can only wait and watch.

Noob here, sorry in advance for the dumb questions.
[quote}If there is an analog shut off in 2009 (I personally doubt it), then this will be noticed. Until then, I'm taking very good care of my HDD250[/quote]
Are you saying the HDD250 or 500 won't work after the analog cut-off?
Does it record in 1080i?
Can I download from it in HD to my computer for burning onto a disc?

I read the threads, I guess I'm not up to speed yet. Sorry.

Are you saying the HDD250 or 500 won't work after the analog cut-off?
It will still work, but functionality may be limited as it receives its programming and time from an analog signal that won't exist. Will still work as an HDTV (ATSC/QAM) tuner just fine.

Does it record in 1080i?
It records in the format of the broadcast up to 1080i

Can I download from it in HD to my computer for burning onto a disc?
No, not that I am aware of. Of course you could output through an analog output and burn to a disc, but the quality would no longer be HD.

Uh, what?
Not delivering full resolution?
What would be the point of having a mpeg decoder chipset which would NOT decode at full resolution?? I thought it was related to available RAM (and video RAM) in the set-top ?? It was worse on the 8000HD as it had less memory to begin with. Then there was mention of the number of "drivers" that the cableco downloads to ALL set-tops regardless of whether or not it was used in that set-top itself. What kind of OS loads unneeded drivers into RAM ??

OK, so you said you'd rather not, but since you build you're own computers, look into the MyHD 130. It works in even old computers (I've put them in 450mhz PII's and PIII's for friends). With its remote, it even feels like a piece of CE gear. Plus, you get the ability to archive your recordings. I set one up for a friend who is completely computer-phobic and he has had almost no problems with it.
... The computer based card gives you a lot of that old freedom back, and then some.

I too was looking for something like the Sony DVR, but not finding any, am thinking of building an HTPC. Would much prefer Linux over the MS tax (i.e., Windows), but I don't see many reports on the forum about video quality with MythTV, specifically scaling, deinterlacing, and color space. I would like the scaling quality to be on par with the scaler in my Panasonic S97 DVD player.

3) Could downcovert to a DVD+/-R at 480i/p (keep the studios happy)
As for unencrypted OTA and QAM channels, there is no need to downconvert them. If a manufacturer wanted to, they could legally make a DVD recorder that burns them at full-res HD onto a DVD+/-R (although a show might not totally fit on just one disc), regardless of what the studios want.

As for encrypted QAM cable channels, the manufacturer would be contractually required to follow the copy-protection flags, such as "copy freely," "copy once," and "copy never." Regardless of whether or not it downconverts, it still has to follow the flags.

Of course you could output through an analog output and burn to a disc, but the quality would no longer be HD.
It would no longer be HD unless you have a computer that can record analog HD signals.

Thanks for the help. Some good folks here!
Darn I hate being new at things!
All I know is I want to record onto my computer's HD from my LG ATSC tuner and I don't know how. Is there a PCI card that will allow this?
Thanks again.

It would no longer be HD unless you have a computer that can record analog HD signals.

True, but the Sony doesn't have a way to get HD video out of the unit. It doesn't have a IEEE1394 output. So with the Sony that the poster mentioned, even if you get it to your PC, it wouldn't be HD. There are other HD DVR's (8300HD??) that have a firewire out that you can use with a DVHS capture program on your PC.

They make PC capture devices with component in at 1080i? ...then another $900 for a burner and $25 for the media....

They make PC capture devices with component in at 1080i?
Here are some possibilities...
AJA KONA LH/LHe (http://www.aja.com/html/products_macintosh_kona_LHe.html) (for OS X)
AJA XENA LH/LHe (http://www.aja.com/html/products_windows_xena_LHe.html) (for Windows XP)
Blackmagic Design DeckLink HD series (http://www.blackmagic-design.com/products/hd/)
Blackmagic Design Intensity (http://www.blackmagic-design.com/products/intensity/) (HDMI only)
Earthsoft PV3 (http://earthsoft.jp/PV3/index.html) (sold only in Japan)
JVC SA-HD50U (http://pro.jvc.com/prof/attributes/press_res.jsp?model_id=MDL101628&feature_id=08) (not available yet)
EDIROL VC-200/300HD and DVI-200/300HD (http://www.edirol.com/press/html/2006/042406_vc_dvi.html) (not available yet)

Wow! I see that there are products out there that are way over my little homeowner's head. That Xena looks perfect Erik. All I need is about $4K more computer to use it.
Thanks my friend, I'll compromise to recording SD since the 50 reviews I have read about the DHG-HDD250/500 make it appear to be unreliable without TVGOS in my area.

Interesting to see the difference between OTA HD products in the US and OTA SD products in the UK. We have a very large number of single and dual tuner DVRs for OTA digital TV - some now include integrated DVD burners (at least one Sony model). The EPG for recording scheduling is either the 7 day free guide broadcast as part of our OTA digital standard, or a 14 day version that is provided by a 3rd party commercial operation (though not always at a cost to the consumer)

The cheapest box starts at around the £49.99 mark (<$100) - but doesn't have a great hard drive, and is a bit of a dog. People I know use them as conflict resolution devices rather than main DVRs.

I suspect the smaller hard drives required, the lack of HD as an issue over here - as our DTV OTA system is SD - and the massive popularity of OTA in the UK are the major factors. (There will soon be more OTA digital viewers than digital satellite viewers - and cable is massively less popular than either of these)

> (There will soon be more OTA digital viewers than digital satellite viewers - and cable is massively less popular than either of these)

I suspect that the American media companies break into a cold sweat when they think about what is happening with Freeview in Great Britain. If American viewers in any significant numbers followed the example of British viewers, viewers would save billions of dollars every year...and that savings would come straight out of the pockets of the big media conglomerates.

Okay, I'll hop off my soapbox now.

> (There will soon be more OTA digital viewers than digital satellite viewers - and cable is massively less popular than either of these)

I suspect that the American media companies break into a cold sweat when they think about what is happening with Freeview in Great Britain. If American viewers in any significant numbers followed the example of British viewers, viewers would save billions of dollars every year...and that savings would come straight out of the pockets of the big media conglomerates.

Okay, I'll hop off my soapbox now.

Yep - though because Freeview has a limited number of slots - AND is proving very popular - the broadcasters who ARE on the platform (some of whom were farsighted enough to take a slot before the platform was the major success it is now) are able to run commercially funded, non-pay TV services, and are also seeing their audiences hold up reasonably well in comparison to the multi-channel services on satellite and cable only. Ironically, one of the channels on the UK Freeview service is "ABC1" (an ABC branded channel run by Disney - showing US sitcoms and family programming and daytime soaps. "Home Improvement", "8 Simple Rules" etc.)

A couple of services - E4 and Film Four - run by Channel Four (the UK's 4th analogue network - a public service commercial station) have moved from pay-TV to Freeview as a result - because financially it makes more sense to be freely available with a large audience watching adverts, than it does to be a niche service with a relatively small number of subscribers.

Sadly - Film Four now has to show adverts in the middle of movies - but for those of us who subscribed (It shows non-English language movies) we're saving around $10 a month as a resullt!

Freeview DVRs are proving pretty popular - and with non-techy types. If you have parents in their 60s it is easier to get them a Freeview DVR with the free OTA EPG than try to explain to them how to connect their Freeview set-top box to their VCR/DVD Recorder AND program the timers...

Erik Garci; Interesting list. Though right off the bat, the JVC is out of the question because of it's $9k price tag.

The Xena apperas to be component only and the system requirememnts are very intensive (expensive) with a probably high price tag for the card:
1. SATA HDD,
2. 2 GB RAM,
3. Quado FX card
4. 250-450 MB/s throughput

That basic Blackmagic Design HDMI card ($250) seems to be only for camcorders.

The Xena apperas to be component only and the system requirememnts are very intensive (expensive) with a probably high price tag for the card:
The Xena card costs ~$1800.
That basic Blackmagic Design HDMI card ($250) seems to be only for camcorders.
The Intensity card is marketed for camcorders, but it can capture just about any 720p/1080i HDMI signal (except for HDCP-encrypted signals, of course). If you want to capture component, you can use a component-to-HDMI converter, such as the CP261H (http://www.cypuk.com/cyp_techpage.php?product=109&&parent=0) for $170.

How about using MCE with an 8VSB ATSC capture card or two - and either a DVI video card, or an XBox 360 with component HD cables as the player?

You get decent HD picture quality, a free EPG (courtesy of Microsoft), and MP3, DVD replay, and the ability to have a network of them around your house? I know people who have put a bunch of tuners in a cheap home-built PC in a storage room (basement/cellar, cupboard under the stairs etc.) and have put a 360 in rooms with TVs in. This allows you to watch any recording in any room, and if you have enough tuners (and a hacked registry), it allows you to watch live TV as well. (Though for HD you're best of cabled rather than wireless)

You can also archive SD recordings as standard DVDs - and I guess potentially archive HD recordings to DVD+/-Rs in HD-DVD format? (The HD-DVD format includes HD material carried on regular non-HD-DVD discs AIUI)

I have a home-built MCE system with DVB-T tuners in the UK - and it works very well if you are happy to keep an eye on the Windows side of it (i.e. run antivirus software, keep up with windows updates etc.) The one tip this side of the pond is to avoid TV-Outs from PCs like the plague. Either use a 360 - or use a Radeon with a VGA to RGB SCART cable and custom Powerstrip timings.

I'm just telling you what others (see some of "John Mason" 's posts on this issue) have measured using test patterns. There's some filtering going on in there and we're not getting the full 1920 lines out of the box.



My TV has what Sony calls a "super-fine apature grill" and is one of those that can resolve full HD resolutions. They made one more model like this, the XBR960, and then stopped putting that tube in CRT TV's. Too expensive, I guess.

Searching the threads, I see some xbr960 owners have gottend 1700x1080i rez from thier htpc video cards to watch HD trailers with, and over 1160x683P( more rez than a 1024x768 plasma not quite 720P).

However Cnet listed it's normal viewing rez at just over 1400, 1401X1080i or 1440X1080i, I believe or 1.5 million pixels. not the full HD 1920x1080 2 million pixels, but not bad at all for a 34" CRT when it was still produced, it truly has some of the best hd pq of its day.

What would be nice (and keep the studios happy) would be a DVD Recorder that:

1) Has an ATSC and QAM tuner (don't care for NTSC, but would take it)
2) Recorded HD video to a hard drive (500GB/750GB)
3) Could downcovert to a DVD+/-R at 480i/p (keep the studios happy)

This would mean that I could watch my shows that I record in HD, but if I wanted to archive, it would only be "DVD Quality."

I can only wait and watch.
At the LG Electronics 2007 Line Show (http://www.hdtvexpert.com/pages_b/LGline2007.html), LG announced DVD recorders that have ATSC tuners, although they don't appear to have hard drives. They can receive HD channels, but they downconvert them to SD for recording onto a DVD.

At the LG Electronics 2007 Line Show (http://www.hdtvexpert.com/pages_b/LGline2007.html), LG announced DVD recorders that have ATSC tuners, although they don't appear to have hard drives. They can receive HD channels, but they downconvert them to SD for recording onto a DVD.


Nice to see that there is at least some news that these are being worked on. (and upconverting, too) Now if they can remove that nasty VHS and replace with a hard drive they would be one step closer.

Actually, the downconverting is a bad thing -- I'd much rather watch the HD as HD.

Actually, the downconverting is a bad thing -- I'd much rather watch the HD as HD.

Wouldn't we all? But at this point that would add cost (HD DVD Drive/ Blu-Ray Drive) plus disc cost ($30 each??) and Hollywood has been against it for a while. Not to mention most major manufacturers have already stated they have no plans for a stand alone high definition DVD recorder in the USA (thanks, TiVo :mad: ).

That is why my hope is they'll come out with one with a hard drive that will allow you to record to it in HD (1080i) and then downconvert if you want to archive to a disc....many of us already do this with two units, so a single unit would be nice.

Hard drive is definitely the way to go. And TiVo is selling an OTA high-definition DVR now, the Series 3. I can attest that, for OTA, it works absolutely great.

Wouldn't we all? But at this point that would add cost (HD DVD Drive/ Blu-Ray Drive) plus disc cost ($30 each??) and Hollywood has been against it for a while.
A much cheaper way would be to record HD onto a regular dual-layer DVD with a regular dual-layer drive, which can typically hold 60 to 90 minutes of HD, depending on the bitrate. Many HD shows are only 1 hour long, or less if you edit out commercials. If a show does not fit on one disc, then just split it up on multiple discs.

A much cheaper way would be to record HD onto a regular dual-layer DVD with a regular dual-layer drive, which can typically hold 60 to 90 minutes of HD, depending on the bitrate. Many HD shows are only 1 hour long, or less if you edit out commercials. If a show does not fit on one disc, then just split it up on multiple discs.

How do you figure 90 mintues? HD is anywhere from 8-12GB per hour, dual layer is 8.4GB, so you might be able to squeeze 60 minutes on to one. Just curious (if this were even possible) what a football game would look like? 45 minutes (1 quarter) per dual layer disc?

How do you figure 90 mintues? HD is anywhere from 8-12GB per hour, dual layer is 8.4GB, so you might be able to squeeze 60 minutes on to one. Just curious (if this were even possible) what a football game would look like? 45 minutes (1 quarter) per dual layer disc?

I've created HD DVDs of many feature films on double layer DVDs. It all depends on the bitrate of the satellite broadcast. With the low bitrates of many films, it becomes possible to burn the entire film onto a double layer DVD and play it back on the Toshiba HD DVD player (or RCA). Since animation compresses so well (not as much real world "noise"), many, if not most, feature length animations fit.

I use the R5000 mod to a Dish 211 to capture .ts streams, convert them to MPEG format (uncompromised HD from the .ts original) using VideoRedo, and then use Ulead Movie Factory 5 to burn the MPEGs to HD DVD. I have over a hundred titles, including films, HD TV shows and documentaries (lots of Discovery HD Theater).

Here's the link to the AVS site on exactly how to do this:

The Official AVS Guide to HD DVD Authoring (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=705146&page=1&pp=30http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=705146&page=1&pp=30)

How do you figure 90 mintues? HD is anywhere from 8-12GB per hour, dual layer is 8.4GB, so you might be able to squeeze 60 minutes on to one.
An OTA digital channel has a bitrate of 19.39 Mbps, or 8.7 GB/hour. The average bitrate of an HD subchannel is typically 12 Mbps to 18 Mbps, or 5.4 GB/hour to 8.1 GB/hour. So you can easily fit over 1 hour on a dual-layer DVD.
Just curious (if this were even possible) what a football game would look like? 45 minutes (1 quarter) per dual layer disc?
If you edit out everything but the plays, you could probably fit the entire game on one disc. :)

AFAIK (and I AM a noob at HDTV), it appears that there are currently no OTA DVRs manufactured now and I am curious as to why.

It appears that the Sony DHG-HDD250 is no longer manufactured unless I am mistaken.

What are my choices for an OTA DVR besides making my own PVR (rather not even though I build myown computers) and finding an EBay'd DHG-HDD250/500??

MikeSp


TiVo might sue your ass if you make one of those.

TiVo might sue your ass if you make one of those.

I'm assuming that is sarcasm :)....An HTPC isn't against the law.

There are really no current choices for OTA HD DVR's that are a) current models and b) non-subscription based.

I'm hanging on to my two Sony DHG-HDD250's as long as I can.

The easiest, cheapest, most functional option (assuming a cord can be run to the PC from the OTA receiver) is to obtain a capture card ($30 if you shop) and a few blank DVDs.
Works for me.
I know we are talking HD here, and that's doable as well, but the capture cards run into the hundreds.

AFAIK (and I AM a noob at HDTV), it appears that there are currently no OTA DVRs manufactured now and I am curious as to why.

If there was a legitimate market you can bet there would be, however as it is now, most that would want this would just do it with Windows Media Center.

If there was a legitimate market you can bet there would be, however as it is now, most that would want this would just do it with Windows Media Center.

I think that the satellite / cable companies along with the retailers have actively hidden the fact that you can pick up OTA HD channels for FREE. Go into a 'big box electronics store' and see their displays...all cable / satellite.

I went into one of these stores with a co-worker, he asked the employee what he needed to get HDTV with his new set. "Cable or Satellite" were the only options and answers that he was given. I mentioned that an antenna would do the same for the locals and the 'big box employee' called me a liar (in not so many words) and told me that I must be stretching an analog signal and just think it is HD.

That's when I looked at my co-worker and said it was time to go, we could find a "better buy" somewhere else :p

I think that the satellite / cable companies along with the retailers have actively hidden the fact that you can pick up OTA HD channels for FREE. Go into a 'big box electronics store' and see their displays...all cable / satellite.

The big box stores get a payment from the cable/satellite providers if they can get you to sign up for a new service in the store. I suspect that the size of the payment is substantially greater than the profit margin that can be made by selling an antenna.

One bit of "truth in marketing" that I would love to see would be a requirement that these stores have to disclose exactly how much of a rebate or incentive they are paid by the service providers for each new subscriber that they can sign up. It would be interesting to know exactly how large their incentive is to steer us towards services that many of us neither want nor need to receive HDTV.

Perhaps after satellite and cable, you'd next like them to put how much profit they make on each item in the store on every tag so you can see that as well?

In all due respect, well over 80% of American Families are on cable or satellite - so its really no big deal for them to convert their service (and OTA is not as easy as one makes it out to be).

And besides, those who do not have cable or satellite are not the ones who are most likely to purchase a DVR either.

There is a reason they do not have cable or satellite.

But I must say that I'll be passing on the $800 HD TiVo. Not because I object to the $800 up front, but rather, because I object to the "extended" cost of the unit -- that $800 plus $12.99/month for the next three years comes up to over $1200.

My PC and broadband internet for 3 years is over $2200, and I spend more time watching my TiVo than I do using the PC.

In all due respect, well over 80% of American Families are on cable or satellite - so its really no big deal for them to convert their service (and OTA is not as easy as one makes it out to be).

And besides, those who do not have cable or satellite are not the ones who are most likely to purchase a DVR either.

I love the fact that I'm not most Americans...makes me feel unique.

I have to say that it was real hard to hook up an antenna to my HDTV to receive all the locals without a problem. (even a $20 powered antenna -- yes it did take about 5 minutes of fiddling to find the right position to pick up all the channels). Actually I think more people could handle this than actually hooking up a VCR / Receiver, etc. I have 2 HD DVR's and OTA only. When I had cable, I noted that the only programs I was recording were from the network feeds, so I dumped them...but then again, I'm in the minority.

But receive an HDTV signal via an antenna is no harder than an analog signal via an antenna. My grandparents live out in the country where no cable is available. They already had an external antenna for OTA analog channels. How hard was receiving a DTV signal...well, I had to hook up a DTV receiver, other than that no other changes were required...pretty easy if you ask me.

An HTPC isn't against the law. Not yet, but give it time between M$ and the MPAA I'll bet it's the next step! If there was a legitimate market you can bet there would be, however as it is now, most that would want this would just do it with Windows Media Center. Ther IS a "legitimate" market, but because of the lack od education from the CEA, few really know about it. As far as WMC, not everyone wants to deal with the iron fist of M$!

I love the fact that I'm not most Americans...makes me feel unique. Just beware that being unique means that getting specifically what you want typically is either harder or more expensive or both.

Ther IS a "legitimate" market, but because of the lack od education from the CEA, few really know about it. A "legitimate" market requires sufficient customers willing to pay enough to make the offerings within that market sufficiently profitable. There is not a "legitimate" market.

Just beware that being unique means that getting specifically what you want typically is either harder or more expensive or both.It's just a matter of principle with him. But in every decision there's a tradeoff of some kind.

I can relate to that ;).

I only have OTA HD myself, and, if it weren't for the White Sox' games on my RSN, I probably wouldn't even have the SD satellite package I have right now. (And with the way their season is starting out, I may not even have that for long :rolleyes:.) With all the lame cr@p they show on the SD channels nowadays, I wouldn't miss it one, single iota.

I mean, where in the world do most people get all that time to watch all the stuff they can get from 250+ channels, anyway? Even with kids it seems like extreme overkill. Maybe if they ever sat down long enough and actually gave it some serious thought, they might begin to wonder, too (as far as what they're actually getting for what they're paying :)).

It's just a matter of principle with him.Understood. I know all about holding to matters of principle.

I mean, where in the world do most people get all that time to watch all the stuff they can get from 250+ channels, anyway?The object of 250+ channels isn't to watch them all, but rather to have that many more choices from which to choose the same 10-20 hours of television per week.

A "legitimate" market requires sufficient customers willing to pay enough to make the offerings within that market sufficiently profitable. There is not a "legitimate" market. Who says there isn't a market? Then why is there a TiVO 3?

There was a rumor of an add on DVR to the PS3 - but I am not hoping too much. In addition, Gefen showed a device at CES, that looks ideal, but is probably vaporware:

http://www.engadget.com/2007/01/10/gefen-shows-off-hd-pvrs-that-export-to-usb-drives/

I have a sony hdd500 that I got for a small markup off the tweeter fire sale price. I love it, but the theater will be done over the summer, and I will need another HD DVR.

Who says there isn't a market? Then why is there a TiVO 3?

Because it takes cable cards to be able to receive all cable programming.

Not everyone wants all programming and there are in the clear locals available without the cards. There is also plenty of analog programming.

Before you mention it, SV isn't cast in stone either.

Understood. I know all about holding to matters of principle.

The object of 250+ channels isn't to watch them all, but rather to have that many more choices from which to choose the same 10-20 hours of television per week.I understand that, but it still applies - at least potentially. The more channels, the more choices. The more choices, the more to watch, etc. I'd imagine their DVR's can get overloaded pretty fast. (Although, who really needs a DVR for all those , non-local SD channels, when they can always just catch the show again during one of it's THOUSAND repeat showings?)

It sure is funny though, how in 1983, with expanded basic cable, there always seemed to be more than enough QUALITY stuff worth watching, and nowadays, even with a couple hundred "regular" SD (non-sports) channels, the pickin's of quality (first run) stuff seems so much slimmer. At least to me, anyways. (Notice I said "quality" - this does not include cheaply produced "reality" and "house hunting" programming ;) - A&E may have shown programs that were a year or two old, and were already shown in the U.K. - but they were considered first run here.)

Remember when a channel's title actually represented what kind of programming it actually showed? Now, THOSE were the days :rolleyes: ;).

Remember when a channel's title actually represented what kind of programming it actually showed?

What? You mean Music Television (MTV) doesn't play music anymore ;)

At least the Entertainment and Sports Programming Network (ESPN) has stuck to their title.

I mean, where in the world do most people get all that time to watch all the stuff they can get from 250+ channels, anyway? Even with kids it seems like extreme overkill. Maybe if they ever sat down long enough and actually gave it some serious thought, they might begin to wonder, too (as far as what they're actually getting for what they're paying :)).

Remember -- most folks that have access to those 250 channels actually watch fewer than 20 of them, according to audience research.

I'll also note that more choices isn't the same as having many appealing choices. At home, I'm close to OTA-only (my broadcast reception is supplemented by an analog C-band system that is steadily going obsolete), but at the gym they have DirecTV. And between what I see at the gym and what is listed in the program listings for those channels, in my case I would not watch significantly more TV if I had those extra channels -- because they literally carry almost nothing that interests me.

Yeah, I know...different people, different taste. But it does remain a fact that the overwhelming majority of viewers who have access to all those channels never even look at the vast majority of those "choices". And when you think about it, that really shouldn't be much of a surprise. Think of choice in other contexts, such as the grocery store. How much time do you spend browsing all your choices when you go grocery shopping? Most likely, you go only to the specific sections of the store that interest you, ignoring most of the choices offered in that store. Same thing with TV...

Not everyone wants all programming and there are in the clear locals available without the cards. There is also plenty of analog programming.

Before you mention it, SV isn't cast in stone either.

And again, there is no HDTV TIVO without cable card - thus the market was for a $700+ unit with ATSC, QAM and Cablecard - not a $700 ATSC unit.

Who says there isn't a market?Who says there is? The fact is that if there is, then there will be products. Then why is there a TiVO 3?Good question. They claim that they're on target, but I doubt that, especially since competitors don't seem to be entering the market. The competitors know that the only way to make money in this space is to sell hardware to service providers, and let them rent that hardware to customers.

1. Americans are lazy. They succumb to the ease of a cable company provided box that 'does it all'.
2. Many don't look further since they would rather do it the easy way especially so they can feed the cable machine with all those PPV movies & events. After all, they DO have to keep up with the Jones's in their cute little subdivision don't they?
3. They NCTA doesn't want to educate anyone that there actually are other ways to receive cable TV w/o their box since it would cut into their revenue stream.
4. Since the CC system has two players and neither want to bother with it, it is doomed to die. Manufactures are unable to support it because cable companies don't want it and make it difficult for it to work properly.

"There's no market" This seems to be the argument for many things that have come and past us by people saying they weren't ready yet. Case in point the Automakers and Electric Vehicles.

The Xena card costs ~$1800.

The Intensity card is marketed for camcorders, but it can capture just about any 720p/1080i HDMI signal (except for HDCP-encrypted signals, of course). If you want to capture component, you can use a component-to-HDMI converter, such as the CP261H (http://www.cypuk.com/cyp_techpage.php?product=109&&parent=0) for $170.

Can I record off this combo with any known DVR/PVR software?

Can I record off this combo with any known DVR/PVR software?
I think the Intensity card uses DirectShow, so if the DVR/PVR software supports DirectShow, it might work.

By the way, if you want to capture component, you should use the Intensity Pro (http://www.blackmagic-design.com/press/detail.asp?pressID=105) card, since it includes component input/output (so you don't need to use a component-to-HDMI converter).

The current Network Media Players from DVICO, the TVIX M-4000PA and M-4100SH (ETA next month) has an ATSC tuner option, which will allow you to record to an optional internal hard drive.

And again, there is no HDTV TIVO without cable card - thus the market was for a $700+ unit with ATSC, QAM and Cablecard - not a $700 ATSC unit.

It would be interesting to see statistics on who is buying the HDTIVO, and what percentage are being used for OTA ATSC, unencrypted QAM, and Cablecard QAM reception.

My suspicion is that none of these markets, by itself, is big enough to make this product viable, but TIVO is hoping that by combining all these capabilities they can cobble together enough sales to make the HDTIVO a success.

<<snipped>>
It sure is funny though, how in 1983, with expanded basic cable, there always seemed to be more than enough QUALITY stuff worth watching, and nowadays, even with a couple hundred "regular" SD (non-sports) channels, the pickin's of quality (first run) stuff seems so much slimmer. At least to me, anyways. (Notice I said "quality" - this does not include cheaply produced "reality" and "house hunting" programming ;) - A&E may have shown programs that were a year or two old, and were already shown in the U.K. - but they were considered first run here.)

Remember when a channel's title actually represented what kind of programming it actually showed? Now, THOSE were the days :rolleyes: ;).

You got older. 1983 was 24 years ago. You were probably in the demographic that the advertisers wanted to appeal to, hence the shows you watched you liked. Now, you are 24 years older and you are not in the prime demographic advertising group.

You got older. 1983 was 24 years ago. You were probably in the demographic that the advertisers wanted to appeal to, hence the shows you watched you liked. Now, you are 24 years older and you are not in the prime demographic advertising group.I don't believe so. I was in my later 20's at that time, and my tastes really haven't changed that much. I've never really fit neatly into any "demographic" anyway, neither then nor now.

In my opinion, there was just a lot more, non-redundant and unique quality programming then for the amount of actual SD channels and time slots available, percentage-wise.

But I won't get into it here, since it's off-topic for this thread and really belongs in the "programming" area, anyway.

Bingo.

Bingo.Yeah, my first reaction was to elaborate and defend myself, but I ultimately resisted ;).

The current Network Media Players from DVICO, the TVIX M-4000PA and M-4100SH (ETA next month) has an ATSC tuner option, which will allow you to record to an optional internal hard drive.

I have seen the soon-to-be shipped M-4100SH, and I must say that it is about bloody time someone is finally be coming out with something that at least has some sort of DVR functions,.. other than TiVo or Cable Ops. Though with optional OTA tuner (no QAM or cablecard here folks) price is almost $500, add a $200 hard drive, and now it's $100 more than current price of $600 TiVo. Though no subscription fees is very nice. I understand that you have several beta testers over in the Network Media Forum currently testing - I can't wait to here their reviews. Do you know when and if all the reviews will be published? Also, how DVR-like is it, ie., does it have a remote control that I can wield at my command, recording at will, bypassing commercials, etc., and can it record independent of a networked computer? Also, my computer has only the higher speed Gigabit Ethernet, will this device be compatible with it? Kei, are you up for a response? I know you're out there? I am just getting you ready for the DVR wolves who want it all. :cool:

Does it have an Electronic Program Guide? (the TVIX)

I think one thing that has been missed is do the retail stores want to sell a device like this? They push satellite packages when you purchase a HDTV, and admitting that you can get OTA HD reception might reduce the amount of packages they sell.

I don't have any pay tv service and am perfectly fine with OTA HDTV broadcasts. Only 25% of my families viewing is network viewing anyway. The rest is either watching DVD's or gaming. we have a rotary roof antenna and reception is very good. So a pay service really doesn't make sense for us. A friend of mine has the same set up with a rotary antenna, but did get a satellite package when he purchased his HDTV. We were at his house watching the Super Bowl and he was using the roof antenna for the broadcast! :D

I'm using a PC for HD recording and it's hard to beat. I have no restrictions, monthly fees and have a 500 gig hard drive available. And you can squeeze a one hour show on one dual layer DVD.

I'm using a PC for HD recording and it's hard to beat. I have no restrictions, monthly fees and have a 500 gig hard drive available. And you can squeeze a one hour show on one dual layer DVD.

I'm assuming you play that back on a HD DVD / Blu-Ray player....correct? Current DVD players can't handle the higher bitrate of HD Programming. Or maybe you are downconverting the image to a DVD compliant format?

I thought about doing that, but I want to watch on my 100" screen and don't want a PC running in the home theater....so I'll live with my Sony DHG-HDD250 for now.

I play them on the Xbox 360 HD-DVD player. But I usually play directly off the hard drive.

DISH 622 receiver is only $200 to lease or $499 to buy.. plus 6 for the local fees (to get OTA programming channel info)

If you don't want the SAT channel.. add $5 for 'access fee'..

It's a little cheaper than Tivo's $13 a month fee.

Nope.

$6 Access Fee for no basic package.
$6 HD Access fee charged on any mpeg4 box without a current HD package
$6 DVR Fee
$6 charge for locals to get guide.
add another $5 if you can't plug into a phone line.

Plus to this method is you can record 2 sat and 1 ota feed at the same time, if dish offers HD locals you can record 3 locals at once. Another cool thing is you can use it with a second tv and watch two things at once.

Cons are only 250GB (or maybe 300) drive with 100GB reserved for Dish to download pay per views, can't upgrade hard drive and no current way to archive hd.

I think that the satellite / cable companies along with the retailers have actively hidden the fact that you can pick up OTA HD channels for FREE. Go into a 'big box electronics store' and see their displays...all cable / satellite.

Stations themselves rarely or never mention they are available in digital or HD OTA. I think many get payed by cable and sat and prefer to keep it that way.

And between what I see at the gym and what is listed in the program listings for those channels, in my case I would not watch significantly more TV if I had those extra channels -- because they literally carry almost nothing that interests me.

I'm mostly ota but also subscribe to HBO and Showtime on dishnetwork, every once in a while I think about adding a basic package (as low as $16 or $24 for me), I bring up my hundreds of red (unsubscribed) channels and after looking at whats on the desire passes. Several years ago I subsribed to DirecTVs highest non sports package and many of the channels changed so much as for me to stop watching (zdtv,techtv,vh1,TLC) or are nothing more than reruns I can rent from blockbuster. The reason I have HBO and Showtime are not for the movies (though HD movies are nice) but for the original programing.

1. Americans are lazy. They succumb to the ease of a cable company provided box that 'does it all'.

Its that "Can't someone else do it?" attitude.

I think one thing that has been missed is do the retail stores want to sell a device like this?Retail stores will want to sell whatever they can make profit on. They push satellite packages because that's where the money is.

admitting that you can get OTA HD reception might reduce the amount of packages they sell.The discipline of "sales person" requires adaptation. They'll view another profitable option as a GOOD THING, turning their patter towards "you can have this or you can have this" thereby implying that you surely should buy one or the other. That's even a better sales pitch than "all I have is this, and it is all you'll ever want".

Does the series 3 Tivo have dual ota tuners?

The discipline of "sales person" requires adaptation. They'll view another profitable option as a GOOD THING, turning their patter towards "you can have this or you can have this" thereby implying that you surely should buy one or the other. That's even a better sales pitch than "all I have is this, and it is all you'll ever want".That's generally true with CC's salespeople.

BB's salespeople on the other hand, can often be completely arrogant, totally obstinant and downright insulting at times. They must train them that way or something, because so many of their salespeople are like that in all of their stores that I've been to.

Nope.

$6 Access Fee for no basic package.
$6 HD Access fee charged on any mpeg4 box without a current HD package
$6 DVR Fee
$6 charge for locals to get guide.
add another $5 if you can't plug into a phone line.

Plus to this method is you can record 2 sat and 1 ota feed at the same time, if dish offers HD locals you can record 3 locals at once. Another cool thing is you can use it with a second tv and watch two things at once.


Am I missing something here? I was looking to upgrade a couple of my Dish SD DVR's with the 622. I do not think you can record 3 channels simultaneously with this unit. It only has 2 tuners built in. From what I understand you can record 2 programs simultaneously. This is from the spec. sheet:

Two satellite tuners allow you to select from two viewing options:
• Single Mode: Picture-In-Picture (PIP) available on any TV, watch/record two live programs, record two live programs, record two live programs while watching a pre-recorded program
• Dual Mode: Independently view and record programming on two televisions

Can someone verify that this is the case? Can you record 2 HD programs simultaneously?

It has 3, two sat (QPSK/8PSK) and OTA (8VSB) and it supports recording from all three at once.

Since it can run two tvs you can be recording 3 things and watching 2 things at the same time.

Does the series 3 Tivo have dual ota tuners?Yes.

From looking at it - it looks like one OTA input.. So you just split the input from two antennas?

From looking at it - it looks like one OTA input.. So you just split the input from two antennas?

The box splits the antenna inside to feed the two tuners.

Yeah, I know...different people, different taste. But it does remain a fact that the overwhelming majority of viewers who have access to all those channels never even look at the vast majority of those "choices". And when you think about it, that really shouldn't be much of a surprise. Think of choice in other contexts, such as the grocery store. How much time do you spend browsing all your choices when you go grocery shopping? Most likely, you go only to the specific sections of the store that interest you, ignoring most of the choices offered in that store. Same thing with TV...

Not a valid comparison. At the grocery store, you haven't already paid for all of the choices present. You can pick and choose what you wish to buy. With cable/sat, you've paid for all the channels you pick from, but there's only so many hours in a day.

I wish it were valid though. How nice it would be to be able to create your own cable package with only the channels you care to watch, without having to pay for all the crap you don't.

A better analogy would be a theme park. Some folks do go on all the rides, but some folks only like roller coasters, while other folks won't go near a roller coaster.

Not a valid comparison. At the grocery store, you haven't already paid for all of the choices present. You can pick and choose what you wish to buy. With cable/sat, you've paid for all the channels you pick from, but there's only so many hours in a day.

I wish it were valid though. How nice it would be to be able to create your own cable package with only the channels you care to watch, without having to pay for all the crap you don't.

How fast do you think the cable companies would offer channles A'La Carte if everyone cancelled their subscriptions for that reason?

How fast do you think the cable companies would offer channles A'La Carte if everyone cancelled their subscriptions for that reason?

Dunno know if it is a federal law or laws inacted by some states, but the A'La Carte situation will become a reality -- but again, not sure if it is in certain states or federal.

Of course, I don't expect that when I choose just a dozen standard (not premium) cable channels that it will be less expensive than 80.

Mike

I agree that eventually a la carte will become a reality, and at that time the people clamoring for it all these years will be shocked at the price-tag for each individual channel.

Phillips sells a 160 GB DVR with a DVD burner. It has only SD outputs however. But it sells for under $300. The reason for the SD outputs I am told is that the chip that is used only does SD outputs. There are rumors that the next generation of these chips will have HD outputs. That to me means HD OTA DVRs for under $300. Maybe it will even include a Hi Def DVD burner also.

Rick R

Phillips sells a 160 GB DVR with a DVD burner. It has only SD outputs however. But it sells for under $300. The reason for the SD outputs I am told is that the chip that is used only does SD outputs. There are rumors that the next generation of these chips will have HD outputs. That to me means HD OTA DVRs for under $300. Maybe it will even include a Hi Def DVD burner also.I wouldn't count on that.

You can't just stick a new chip in and get HD. Completely new designs are required with more memory, greater memory bandwidth, bus bandwidth, etc. Most of the existing DVD recorder products on the market with ATSC/QAM were adapted from older analog designs, which kept costs to a minimum.

A number of solutions with HD capability are available now. Vendors have simply chosen not to use them because they want to sell the product for $300 and not $600.

This might lead one to believe there may be SD DVD recorders with HD pass through next year:

For the LSI Domino 3 used in the Panasonic DMR-EZ17,27,37,47 recorders, it's has to do with the number of video output ports. The chip can be configured to have two SD outputs (one analog and one digital) or one HD digital output.

The problem with using one digital HD output, is that you still have to send SD to the S-Video and composite outputs. This would require an external HD to SD scaler chip and video D/A chip.

Since Panasonic has developed an HDMI chip with built-in SD to HD scaling, it's a much easier and less expensive design to use the two SD outputs. One goes to the analog S-Video and composite outputs and the other goes to the HDMI chip.

There's also a processing load and SDRAM bandwidth problem. When recording HD ATSC source, the Domino 3 has to do all of the following:

1) Transport Stream input
2) Transport Stream Demux
3) HD MPEG-2 decode
4) 5.1 AC-3 decode
5) HD to SD rescale
6) SD MPEG-2 encode
7) 2.0 AC-3 encode
8) Program Stream Mux
9) Video output
10) Audio output
11) Optical disk I/O

On Domino 5 (that will be used in next year's models), all of these issues have been taken care of. There will be an internal HD video D/A, internal HDMI, and more SDRAM bandwidth from using a faster DDR2 SDRAM controller.

Folks that are not using the LSI solution are in even worse shape. Most of them are using a two chip design with a Panasonic MV3 chip (used in last year's ES-15,25,35,45 models) along with a companion chip from Renesas that does Transport Stream input, demux and HD decoding.

Ron

From this post by dr1394:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...&postcount=947

dr1394 says he does some work for LSI. Like anything else posted on here a grain of salt is in order. But dr1394 seems credible enough. Especially when looking at his other posts.

But this still means just an SD DVR/DVD recorder but with the additional ability to pass through an HD signal. Something that is not offered in today's ATSC/QAM DVD recorders.

This might lead one to believe there may be SD DVD recorders with HD pass through next year:



From this post by dr1394:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...&postcount=947

dr1394 says he does some work for LSI. Like anything else posted on here a grain of salt is in order. But dr1394 seems credible enough. Especially when looking at his other posts.

But this still means just an SD DVR/DVD recorder but with the additional ability to pass through an HD signal. Something that is not offered in today's ATSC/QAM DVD recorders.

That, my friend, would be cool, especially if it can record the HD video on the HDD only & just downconvert it if recording to DVD. I wish PlayTV were availble for the PS3 in the States as well (sorry, had to add that in).

That, my friend, would be cool, especially if it can record the HD video on the HDD only & just downconvert it if recording to DVD. I wish PlayTV were availble for the PS3 in the States as well (sorry, had to add that in).

Yes it would be. But I do not believe that will be the case.

Any recording, whether to a disc or to the HDD will be SD. What the new LSI Domino 5 may provide is the ability to pass through HD content (the additional data path mentioned). Meaning instead of having to down scale it through the chipset and then upscale it via HDMI it will just pass through to HDMI as HD. I think recording will still be set to DVD-Video standards. Meaning anything (recording) to a disc or the HDD will be SD.

Hopefully I am wrong.

there are many HDD based HD DVR's, so I don't see why it wouldn't be possible to record to the HDD in HD and then to the DVD in SD if you wanted to archive it. There may be cost limitations that won't prove cost effective for the US market and that is my fear.

Although, just an HD pass-through would be nice. If it had a decent upconverting player, then it would work well in my home theater room where I could use it as a tuner and DVD player.

I am the OP and caved in -- calculating the price of a generation 3 Tivo and about $9/month for the cursed programming fee, it totaled about the same or less in 3 year than the Sony HD-DVR that was sold for about 10 months with the free programming. I need to be able to record HD OTA programming in order to keep peace in the family and felt that I had no choice.

THUS -- I WIMPED OUT... sigh:rolleyes:

MikeSp

Are you happy with it?

Are you happy with it?

Dunno--it is to be delivered tomorrow and then the learning curve plus the mistake I made needs to be corrected regarding the type of Internet connection--I wired a coax connection and it needs an ethernet connection...duh!!

There is a 30 day return policy, so I have that long to decide if I am happy with it.

Hopefully it will not have as many issues as the new Toshiba A3 HD-DVD player that I purchased today and found that it locks up and when Googling that issue, found that it was common with most or all models of HD-DVD players and has been since the first ones rolled off the assembly lines. My luck has not been very good lately on high tech gear, so I am a little concerned about how the Tivo will work out -- from what I have read, they have their little issues too...

Will report back in a couple of weeks as to my success or lack of...

MikeSp

But dr1394 seems credible enough.Very credible.

Hopefully it will not have as many issues as the new Toshiba A3 HD-DVD player that I purchased today and found that it locks up and when Googling that issue, found that it was common with most or all models of HD-DVD players and has been since the first ones rolled off the assembly lines.

Whatever "research" you did your conclusion is garbage, no offense. I don't doubt that you're having issues but I've owned three separate HD-DVD players (the A2, A20 and XA2) and haven't had one issue of any kind. The consensus is that the Toshibas are far more competent than any of the standalone Blu Ray players right now, the earliest 1st generation machines notwithstanding.

You have a bad unit -- return it. Sure isn't the experience most people have had with HD-DVD players.

"How nice it would be to be able to create your own cable package with only the channels you care to watch, without having to pay for all the crap you don't."

How about not having to pay for cable at all, just internet with all programs "On-Demand". Of course you won't be able to skip the commercials.

I agree that eventually a la carte will become a reality, and at that time the people clamoring for it all these years will be shocked at the price-tag for each individual channel.

Or the huge variety in costs for different channels. AIUI the amount UK channels get paid (or charge depending on your point of view) for carriage on cable and satellite varies massively.

Some services in the UK have flipped from subscription via satellite and cable, to free-to-air on satellite and digital OTA (still subscription on cable as there is no free cable in the UK) as the increased ad revenue and audience figures from being sub-free more than replaced the subscription revenue.

We don't have a la carte on cable or satellite here either - though satellite has, in recent years, had far more tiers and groups (though of course the channel groupings are always such that you end up with most of them) in addition to separate niche and premium services.

"How nice it would be to be able to create your own cable package with only the channels you care to watch, without having to pay for all the crap you don't."

How about not having to pay for cable at all, just internet with all programs "On-Demand". Of course you won't be able to skip the commercials.

Though if you give the suppliers the right demographic data - you may find fewer, more tightly focused adverts dropped in to a feed customised for you as a result.

I can live with that.

Bumping this thread ...

MikeSP, can you report on your experience with the Tivo Series3 for OTA use?

Anybody got any other news on DVRs that are capable of OTA HD and aren't tied to cable or satellite service? I'm happy with my SD Pioneer 633, but I sure would like to watch HD shows time shifted ...

Also, if anybody could point me to other threads that are keeping up with this topic (OTA HD DVRs) I'd appreciate it. This is the only one I know of.

For those adversed to paying monthly fees Tivo is for a limited time offering lifetime service for $399. The catch is you have to already have tivo service on something else or know someone with tivo and have them buy it for you.

I have a TivoHD running OTA only its pretty much amazing, i had a Dvr dvd recorder that was horrible so i returned it and got the tivo.

For those adversed to paying monthly fees Tivo is for a limited time offering lifetime service for $399. The catch is you have to already have tivo service on something else or know someone with tivo and have them buy it for you.TiVo is also advertising a gift bundle with a TiVoHD, TiVo 802.11g wireless adapter, and lifetime service (no monthly fees) for $698.99.

http://www.tivo.com/hdgift

If you don't already have a TiVo, you do need a TiVo service number before you can order. You can get one from any TiVo subscriber, or by using Google.

I'm wishing and hoping for some product announcements at CES next week ...

I'm also wishing and hoping for a simple, subscription-free HD DVR option for OTA ATSC viewers to be announced at CES. But unfortunately I expect that we will continue to find that any such device to be sold in the US will either require a subscription or will allow SD quality output only. The problem might be DRM or patents, but I can't believe it is the lack of a market for a simple hard-drive-based recorder.

I'm also wishing and hoping for a simple, subscription-free HD DVR option for OTA ATSC viewers to be announced at CES. But unfortunately I expect that we will continue to find that any such device to be sold in the US will either require a subscription or will allow SD quality output only. The problem might be DRM or patents, but I can't believe it is the lack of a market for a simple hard-drive-based recorder.

It's neither. It's the expense of software upgrades, guide data and the unit itself, which is a bit more specialized than a run of the mill computer. There's also the costs of promotion so people will know it exists, what it does and actually buy it.

And presumably, also, the cost of providing direct support to mass-market consumers.

It's neither. It's the expense of software upgrades, guide data and the unit itself, which is a bit more specialized than a run of the mill computer. There's also the costs of promotion so people will know it exists, what it does and actually buy it.

If software is really the big expense, I'd be happy with a simple hard drive that lets me pause and record live HDTV. Or maybe I could pay a little extra for the advanced software that would allow it to turn off and on at predetermined times--like the "software" that turns on my $25 coffee maker in the morning. My tv recieves guide data free OTA, and I can also look up schedules in the newspaper and online. I am not that interested in having software to guess what I may want to watch, and I am not interested in archiving 30+ hrs of programming. I would think that such a device would be more basic than say an ipod. The closest similar devices I have seen (including DVD recorders and "Archos" maybe?), may allow recording OTA HD, but the output is down graded to SD. I really hope that I am wrong and the absence of HD-DVRs with no-strings-attached is simply a matter of market economics. Then I can hope for more choices in the future. We'll see what pops up next week.

I'd be happy with a simple hard drive that lets me pause and record live HDTV.Look for a used Sony DHG-HDD500/250 or an LG 3410a. They both use TV Guide on Screen.

If software is really the big expense, I'd be happy with a simple hard drive that lets me pause and record live HDTV. Or maybe I could pay a little extra for the advanced software that would allow it to turn off and on at predetermined times--like the "software" that turns on my $25 coffee maker in the morning. My tv recieves guide data free OTA, and I can also look up schedules in the newspaper and online. I am not that interested in having software to guess what I may want to watch, and I am not interested in archiving 30+ hrs of programming. I would think that such a device would be more basic than say an ipod. The closest similar devices I have seen (including DVD recorders and "Archos" maybe?), may allow recording OTA HD, but the output is down graded to SD. I really hope that I am wrong and the absence of HD-DVRs with no-strings-attached is simply a matter of market economics. Then I can hope for more choices in the future. We'll see what pops up next week.
And how much would you expect to pay for something like that?

The fact is, what you want would still run in the $250 range for the hardware alone. You're talking a hard drive, processor, memory, digital tuner(s), power supply and motherboard.

Your coffee maker example is flawed: that's a switch on a clock - on or off. It takes software for a DVR to do that. It also takes software to know which tuner is free and to warn you when both are occupied at a specific time. It take software to create the interface to set up a recording. The price is now $300.

Are you willing to pay that much for what amounts to a tapeless VCR? I wouldn't when for a couple hundred more I could get the real deal - or for no upfront cost I could get one from the cable company that does it all.

Also, bear in mind that companies like TiVo make money off subscriptions, not the hardware - just like all those VCR manufacturers made money off video tapes, printer companies make money off ink and game console companies make money on games.

People buy DVRs for functionalty over that of a VCR. You are in an extreme minority if that's not the case with you.

DVD recorders that include with both ASTC tuners and hard-drives (and even power supplies I believe) are only around 200 bucks. Seems fair enough, but I haven't bought one for a couple reasons: first, I have no need to play and burn DVDs, which is the primarly function of the device; and 2nd, while they also function as DVRs to record HD OTA, they only output SD. My question is why only SD out? Also, is this limitation likely to change in the near future? For example, is it much easier to engineer a device in which the incoming data is down-graded from HD to SD. Or are these devices actually "crippled" to prevent illegal coping of pristine HD content.

BTW, I think that Tivo is a terrific product... just not for me.

DVD recorders that include with both ASTC tuners and hard-drives (and even power supplies I believe) are only around 200 bucks. Seems fair enough, but I haven't bought one for a couple reasons: first, I have no need to play and burn DVDs, which is the primarly function of the device; and 2nd, while they also function as DVRs to record HD OTA, they only output SD. My question is why only SD out? Also, is this limitation likely to change in the near future? For example, is it much easier to engineer a device in which the incoming data is down-graded from HD to SD. Or are these devices actually "crippled" to prevent illegal coping of pristine HD content.There are no standalone DVD recorders sold in the United States that can save HD or output HD.

To keep costs down, DVD recorders are designed around low-cost ICs that downconvert all content to SD. These ICs are designed from the start for SD applications, not HD applications. Working in HD requires more processing power, a faster bus, a faster memory interface, etc; dropping everything to SD resolution right off the bad avoids the extra hardware requirements.

If DVD recorders were available with actual HD, dual-tuners, and a hard drive -- using existing technology -- they would probably cost $800 at retail. That's not going to fly in the U.S. market.

If DVD recorders were available with actual HD, dual-tuners, and a hard drive -- using existing technology -- they would probably cost $800 at retail. That's not going to fly in the U.S. market.It might with myself and some others around here. ;)

But you're probably not going to be able to record much more than the occasional PBS program in HD (if even that), anyway.

What you're more likely to see is something that records and plays from the HDD in HD, but downscales the stuff when transferred to DVD. They've already had something along those lines out at one time (Sony, HP).

To keep costs down, DVD recorders are designed around low-cost ICs that downconvert all content to SD.

Well, if it is just a matter of the cost of chips, that is very good news for me. I expect that those components are becoming cheaper and faster by the week and that a sub-$200 subscription-free HD-DVR should be just around the corner.

Well, if it is just a matter of the cost of chips, that is very good news for me. I expect that those components are becoming cheaper and faster by the week and that a sub-$200 subscription-free HD-DVR should be just around the corner.It's not just one chip. It's the entire board design.

You can't substitute a HD chip for a SD chip in a DVD recorder and expect to get HD. As I indicated above, working in HD requires more processing power, a faster bus, a faster memory interface (with faster memory), etc. In most, if not all cases, this will require a new, more expensive board design.

Too many people underestimate how much this technology costs. The cost of doing SD is still not comparable to the cost of doing HD. TiVo built just about the lowest cost dual-tuner HDTV DVR design possible with existing technology, and their cost for the hardware+distribution was $250-$300. That does not include the software or software R&D.

DirecTV says that each HR20 HDTV DVR costs them about $450. By eliminating the OTA tuners, and adopting the same integrated solution from Broadcom found in the TivoHD, DirecTV says their cost for the new HR21 DVR will be down to $250 within a few months. This is the cost with volume production in the 100s of thousands of units. You are not going to get this economy of scale with a standalone HDTV DVR for OTA.

I would be very surprised to see such a sub-$200 "feeless" product in the next two years.

Too many people underestimate how much this technology costs. The cost of doing SD is still not comparable to the cost of doing HD.

Fortunately, the demands on the system to do HD are capped by the broadcast standards (unlike software applications), allowing the low-end hardware to eventually catch up. Where only the highest performance Mac's could initially handle El Gato's HD tuners, it can now run on Core Duo Minis.

I expect that those components are becoming cheaper and faster by the week and that a sub-$200 subscription-free HD-DVR should be just around the corner.I doubt it.

I'm also wishing and hoping for a simple, subscription-free HD DVR option for OTA ATSC viewers to be announced at CES. But unfortunately I expect that we will continue to find that any such device to be sold in the US will either require a subscription or will allow SD quality output only. The problem might be DRM or patents, but I can't believe it is the lack of a market for a simple hard-drive-based recorder.

yeah, actually I doubt it too (above). Just can't understand why.

It's all those people that think it is "cheaper" to pay $7.95 a month to their cable company for the next 15-20 years than to own their own equipment. What they don't realize is that they are paying more than that as you must purchase 'upgraded' packages to get the right to lease the machine.

If my cable company would let me get the basic package (I.e. only digital locals) and a HD DVR I would do it (~$25 a month), but they want me to pay $60 for digital basic + $8 a month for the HD DVR ($68-25 = $43). That is a $43 a month rental fee for an HD DVR. In a year, you could buy one. I don't want the extra digital channels, but if I want a DVR I'm forced to pay for them. That's why I don't have any cable service and will build my own HTPC before giving into the cable / satellite monopolies.

My suspcion is that we're eventually going to see an affordable Blu-Ray or HD-DVD recorder that will have an ATSC chip set that supports true high definition. Such a product might or might not have a hard drive built in, but would allow fee-less archiving or timeshifting of HD content. I think that such a product is far more likely than another fee-less HD DVR like the old Sony, LG, and Zenith units.

However, I also think that such a product is still a couple years out in our market, and will likely sell for much more than the $250 price point discussed in this thread.

My suspcion is that we're eventually going to see an affordable Blu-Ray or HD-DVD recorder that will have an ATSC chip set that supports true high definition. Such a product might or might not have a hard drive built in, but would allow fee-less archiving or timeshifting of HD content. I think that such a product is far more likely than another fee-less HD DVR like the old Sony, LG, and Zenith units.

However, I also think that such a product is still a couple years out in our market, and will likely sell for much more than the $250 price point discussed in this thread.

Yep - such devices are announced (or maybe available) - for the Japanese market, where OTA and Satellite are organised differently. BluRay was initially launched in Japan as a timeshifting MPEG2-only OTA/Satellite recording system (way back when the discs were in caddies)

SD OTA Digital DVRs are widespread in the UK (I bought my Mum one for Christmas to allow her to record digital TV easily) - where our OTA is SD only (though it includes a lot of 16:9 SD broadcasts) and where a free-guide is broadcast OTA for all services by all services. The cheapest dual-tuner DVRs for this are around £70 for older models at end of life (around $140). However these are SD only, and there is no issue with guide data as it is a core part of the UK OTA standard. (So no TVGOS or phone-based EPG is required)

My suspcion is that we're eventually going to see an affordable Blu-Ray or HD-DVD recorder that will have an ATSC chip set that supports true high definition. Such a product might or might not have a hard drive built in, but would allow fee-less archiving or timeshifting of HD content. I think that such a product is far more likely than another fee-less HD DVR like the old Sony, LG, and Zenith units.

However, I also think that such a product is still a couple years out in our market, and will likely sell for much more than the $250 price point discussed in this thread.

but why should this be? is it easier to write/rewrite on a BD than on a hard drive? is it easier to control the distribution of HD content written to BD?

since the lg and sony dvrs were released (4-5 years ago, right?) i would think that the market for an HD recorder has markedly increased and the cost of the necessary components has decreased, and that someone would want to market such a device. but on the contrary, newer devices seem to be designed to avoid this functionality. that's too bad.

I don't think it is the cost of the hardware but in the reliability of that hardware/software solution. From everything I have read about the early HD DVR's they are, and continue to be, buggy beasts of burden. I have read more than once that users of these units regularly reboot the device in order to keep it working on schedule. There is nothing worse then expecting to sit down to a time shifted program only to find that it never recorded in the first place.

I recently built my own Media Center PC for recording OTA HD. Total cost of the hardware components was around $600. It is definitely a bit beefier than it has to be but I did not want to skrimp and have problems due to a slightly inadequate processor or not enough RAM. I stream it to my XBOX 360 Elite in my dedicated HT which cost another $400 - so all told I have about a grand in the solution.

In comparison; In 1988 I purchased my first Denon CD audio player (I still use it to this day). It cost me a cool $650 for a single purpose device that provides a method for playback only. The Media Center PC and XBOX 360 combo provides one h^ll of a lot more functionality and satisfaction than the CD player could ever have provided me.

The cost for this technology is already within reach of many consumers who already see the value in it (just like my CD player). I just think the software and reliability issues have not been ironed out enough to make it easily reproduced. Even my 4 Dish Network SD DVR's (I have owned them now for 6 plus years) have regular quirks and hickups. These have been around for a long time and Dish still cannot make them anywhere near 100% reliable, HD will have a few years to go before it reaches even the basic reliability I have come to expect from these DVR's. Notice that I originally purchased 4 of them to make sure everything I want to record actually gets recorded. So far, in the last 6 years I have not missed a program - I cannot say that this would be the case if I had only purchased a single unit for this purpose.S

So, could an OTA HD DVR be manufactured and sold in the very near future for less than $300? I think so. Will it be reliable? Probably not, You may have to live with the bugs just as I have with my current DVR's so be prepared to buy more than 1 of these units.

Best Regards,

JD

No matter what it costs, it's not going to hardly let you record anything worth recording to DVD in HD. The content providers aren't going to give you for free what people have already shown they're willing to pay good money for in a boxed set. And when people know that, along with the price, it won't sell. Therefore, the future doesn't look good.

Well, if it is just a matter of the cost of chipsNothing in the consumer sector is ever "just a matter of the cost". Cost plus profit serves as a lower limit for the price. However, it is just a lower limit. The actual price will generally be above that, based on value.

No matter what it costs, it's not going to hardly let you record anything worth recording to DVD in HD. The content providers aren't going to give you for free what people have already shown they're willing to pay good money for in a boxed set. And when people know that, along with the price, it won't sell. Therefore, the future doesn't look good.
Do you really believe that?

Despite nearly every newer computer having a DVD recorder in it, many DVD players also able to record and how easy it has been for years to duplicate a commercial DVD, sales of disc have been through the roof. Sure, they're down a bit recently while people are pondering the HD formats, but that has nothing to do with what you're saying. Those people will either take the plunge to HD media, or go right back to buying DVDs.

People who buy media will always buy media as long as it provides value to them. Likewise, people who don't buy media probably never will no matter how good the purchased stuff is.

Being able to record a show and burn a copy of it to an HD disc will have almost no effect on the hunger people have to purchase it. People have shown they are willing to buy disc-based media despite all the other options. The main reason is, it's easier to pay the cost than go through the bother of it yourself.

The fact is, no matter how good your OTA, satellite or cable service is, disc based media will always look better than it. You don't have to edit out commercials, there aren't any channel bugs and the navigation is better. It's just a better way to go about it having the studios do the work for most people.

If anything holds these kinds of units back, it won't be any fear of people not ponying up for TV box sets. That ship has sailed - people are already addicted to the stuff, and the studios are perfectly willing to provide that fix.

Do you really believe that?
Yes. As far as standalone, non-computer-type units, I do. They may appear, but they will downconvert to DVD.

Sony has a recorder out right now that does this. It's Blu-ray, but the only thing you can actually record to it in HD are your home camcorder recordings. It downconverts everything else. And the thing costs $3500.00. (You can find the details on their site under "Home Entertainment Servers".)

Yes. As far as standalone, non-computer-type units, I do. They may appear, but they will downconvert to DVD.

Sony has a recorder out right now that does this. It's Blu-ray, but the only thing you can actually record to it in HD are your home camcorder recordings. It downconverts everything else. And the thing costs $3500.00. (You can find the details on their site under "Home Entertainment Servers".)
That's early adopter technology. It bears no resemblance to what will actually appear on the open market that a customer will buy.

Customers wanted to be able to record on DVDs and they can. Customers will want to record on Blu-Ray....and, once the prices settle a bit, they will be able to - in as full resolution as the video you put into it.

These companies will only hold out as long as there's no money in putting a product out there. They want your dollars. They fought VHS, but threw their support behind it when they realized the money they could make. Likewise, they know more people will buy a Blu-Ray player if it also records HD.

DVD recorders didn't kill DVD. Blu-Ray recorders won't kill Blu-Ray. The only thing that will kill Blu-Ray is if people don't buy into the format at all.

DVD recorders did not have much effect on DVD sales because there just was not much worth recording and archiving. Much the same could be said about HD recorders.

Reason being is that it is near impossible for the average person to make a direct digital (bit for bit) copy of a DVD. It can be done but in almost all cases requires compression of the original data. As good as this may be it is still not an exact duplicate of the original. HD recording is a bit more dangerous to the studio's and networks bottom line in that it would be possible to create a digital duplicate of the original due to the formats capacity.

As far as duplicating OTA programming - It is all compressed and in my opinion as good as it looks there would always be a dramatic improvement in the uncompressed versions of these programs so archiving of this stuff would not impact sales much if at all.

My tu cents,

JD

DVD recorders did not have much effect on DVD sales because there just was not much worth recording and archiving. Much the same could be said about HD recorders.
People seem content to keep stuff on VHS, despite being worse than DVD as a recording format. "Worth" is a personal thing.

Reason being is that it is near impossible for the average person to make a direct digital (bit for bit) copy of a DVD. It can be done but in almost all cases requires compression of the original data. As good as this may be it is still not an exact duplicate of the original. HD recording is a bit more dangerous to the studio's and networks bottom line in that it would be possible to create a digital duplicate of the original due to the formats capacity.
We're not talking duplicating DVDs. Since the discussion is mostly directed toward standalone units, you can't use them to duplicate commercial DVDs. Even if you could, most consumers would find the quality difference irrelevant when it comes to making a copy the kids with sticky fingers can handle or to view in the minivan.

As far as duplicating OTA programming - It is all compressed and in my opinion as good as it looks there would always be a dramatic improvement in the uncompressed versions of these programs so archiving of this stuff would not impact sales much if at all. First, there is no "uncompressed" source for the customer. It's all compressed. It's just a matter to what degree. Second, saving OTA programming isn't so much about quality, as just being able to save it. DVD over VHS maintains as much quality as possible in SD and takes up less space than VHS.

DVD over VHS maintains as much quality as possible in SD....Maybe. If you consider always recording what it's getting "quality".

I have analog stuff on old VHS tapes recorded with a decent (non-s-VHS) deck that looks a lot more watchable than the same stuff I recorded again more recently on DVD off of bit/bandwith-starved cable/satellite and OTA subchannels, even at the top quality DVD recording speed.

since the lg and sony dvrs were released (4-5 years ago, right?) i would think that the market for an HD recorder has markedly increased and the cost of the necessary components has decreased, and that someone would want to market such a device. but on the contrary, newer devices seem to be designed to avoid this functionality. that's too bad.

I bought my Zenith HDR230 in May 2003 -- and it was the predecessor to the LG and Sony models, so those would be around four years old. I can't speak on the LG or Sony, but my Zenith has been a reliable performer over all those years. If they could make it work then, I can't help but believe that they could make it work today. So I don't think that the issue is technology.

The problem is that the consumer electronics companies don't want to attempt to sell products that have to compete against the leased boxes from the cable and satellite companies. Unfortunately, the majority of Americans will pay their cable/satellite companies $10/month before they'll spend $300 to buy a box free and clear. And those of us that won't are apparently not a big enough market to make these products economically viable in North America.

Announced at CES:

Echostar TR-50
OTA DVR
ATSC and NTSC tuners
NOT a Dish receiver!
720p and 1080i outputs
TVGOS EPG
HD size TBD
external HD expansion possible via USB
Ethernet port for future use, possible movie downloads
pricing TBD, available in July
http://sats.client.shareholder.com/releasedetail.cfm?ReleaseID=284881
http://ces.cnet.com/8301-13855_1-9840910-67.html
http://reviews.cnet.com/EchoStar_TR_50_DVR/4660-13855_7-6826151.html
http://news.google.com/news?q=echostar+tr-50
they also announced the TR-40, which is just a ATSC to NTSC converter

I've actually not seen definite word on whether it'll record and playback in HD; careful parsing of the releases could mean that it'll play SD out on the HDMI interfaces. But I doubt that. It probably does HD.

Time for you armchair "nobody will make one" cud chewers to come up with new logic :)

I also posted a dedicated thread on the TR-50. Looks like quite a compelling product.

I'm surprised and I'm sure Tivo is as well.

Announced at CES:

Echostar TR-50
OTA DVR
ATSC and NTSC tuners
NOT a Dish receiver!
720p and 1080i outputs
TVGOS EPG
HD size TBD
external HD expansion possible via USB
Ethernet port for future use, possible movie downloads
pricing TBD, available in July

Looks good, however, I don't think it has TVGOS. Only the PSIP guide data.

Wait. Maybe not. The specs are a little confusing. I'll reserve judgement until I see more info.

Looks good, however, I don't think it has TVGOS. Only the PSIP guide data.

Wait. Maybe not. The specs are a little confusing. I'll reserve judgement until I see more info.At CES, Echostar said they are licensing the guide data from TVGuide. It will download guide data from CBS (and other stations) which are sending that information via 8-VSB datacast.

At release, guide data will only be delivered OTA, but Echostar said guide data could also be offered via ethernet at a later date.

Echostar TR-50 HDTV DVR: Official Thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=972197)

Sony DHG-HDD500/250 They both use TV Guide on Screen. I have a Sony DHG500. I have had it for about 2.5 years. No problems so far. I live in Atlanta. I saw a DHG-HDD250 at FRY's a couple of months ago for aprox 700.00. This is to much as I didn't pay that much for my DHG-500. You can use it OTA or with a cable card. I have only used it OTA. I don't know why Sony stopped selling it.

I don't know why Sony stopped selling it.

I think because (at least prior to the fire-sale pricing that sprang up right about the time the line was terminated) they weren't selling. A single-tuner box, while with CableCARD support, but (to my knowledge) with no expansion options, and the fact that with the end of NTSC programming in sight, the future of guide data for the unit is at best questionable... well, I'm sure if you get a good deal on it, it's a fine enough unit, but I'll hang onto my TiVo.

Edit: Also a near-total lack of marketing; I'd certainly never heard of them till I joined AVSForum and saw the threads for the units (same with the LG LST-3410a). I'm sure that didn't help to garner them a customer base any.

Sony DHG-HDD500/250 They both use TV Guide on Screen. I have a Sony DHG500. I have had it for about 2.5 years. No problems so far. I live in Atlanta. I saw a DHG-HDD250 at FRY's a couple of months ago for aprox 700.00. This is to much as I didn't pay that much for my DHG-500. You can use it OTA or with a cable card. I have only used it OTA. I don't know why Sony stopped selling it.

I am someone who has had trouble with TV Guide On Screen with my Sony DVR. My local cable company seemingly blocks the signal with the digital cable box, so I have to hook the DVR up to just the plain cable to get the analog cable. That may go away in 2009.

Just a heads up.