With so much focus on the sony pearl is there any room for new DLP models coming to market? I hear the Sony is great but what about DLP. Is this a dying technolgy and LCD the overtaking power. SIM2 D80's are to hit the American stores this week and just curious why there has not been much talk around them. Is it the price or technology or what. I was really interested in this one but am vary weary becuase very little talk other than the Sony. Your feedback is welcomed.

Woolfman

No one has seen the Sim2 D80. The HT3000 has gotten some press, but that has been shipping.

Here's the info on the D80

http://www.mail-active.it/aziende/simdue/D80_IFA_W.pdf

I just spoke to my dealer and he said he will have on up on display this Thursday so I guess I will have to take a long hard look at it. I guess my eyes will have to tell me which one is better. I will update when I get a chance to check this one out.

Woolfman

Unlike the Sony (Ruby/Pearl), the D80 does not need a dynamic iris to achieve good contrast. I'm guessing the D80 will have better shadow detail. The optics used by SIM2 have always been top notch. DLP has the capability of being punchier and sharper than LCOS. At its MSRP, the D80 needs to be compared to the Ruby, not the Pearl. I have to believe that Alan or Jason will test the D80 soon after its release and give us a report.

Well, I must be one of the few people that has actually seen this projector, it was on demo recently at a show here in the UK. It is amazing, I have recently bought a C3X and after seeing this, it made me wonder if I had made the right choice (although I still prefer 3 chip in highly dynamic scenes). It was very sharp with HD DVDs (no scaler), made the the pioneer 1080p plasma look quite pedestrian in comparison. They had the HT3000 at the show too but weren't demoing it, and I stayed there all day waiting for them to put it on but they never did, I wonder why? ;) The only other 1080p projector I have seen is a 'Ruby' with a lumagen HDP pro scaler, the D80 easily beats it IMO and a lot better than any single chip 720p DLP I have seen. I only saw HD DVDs being played on it but the images were noiseless with a lot of depth, very nice indeed. It was being demoed in a darkened section of the showroom about twenty feet long, with the projector 12 feet from screen and there was a 3 ft opening that people could walk in at the other end, so there was some ambient light. It looked absolutely fine at that distance, excellent black levels and I would imagine in a light-conrtolled room you could easily have this 15ft away and still get a very punchy image. I am also suprised there is not more talk about this projector, for £7K (in the UK) I very much doubt you could get anything better for that price and I also doubt the extra £5K-ish on a HT3000 is worth it. The Sharp is going to retail here for probably the same sort of money and in terms of lens, optics and processing it may be comparable but without seeing it I couldn't say. In the US you will probably get a much better price (not that I am bitter or anything..). The only other one I would consider demoing, is the Marantz VP11s1, but that retails for £10k here. Anybody considering a 1080p projector should go and demo this before buying.

EDIT: I am going to an AV show this weekend that will be showing this as well as the new HT5000 and the new ultra short-throw Toshiba 720p, if anybody wants to know anything in particular about them, let me know. I imagine they will be demoing POTO, apollo 13 et al in HD DVD like the other show I went to.

Daniel - Thanks for the information. Your observations help me out quite a bit on the D80 and its quailty. I am very anxious to see it and if it is what you say I will be taking one home. It may be ringing true that the d80 may be better than the 3000. Sony is an great example of a newer peice at lower cost with a cheaper cost associated with it. I will get a looksy this thursday and hope ot be impressed.

Woolfman

I think the biggest difference between the D80 and the HT3000 is brightness. I don't have the specs handy, but I'm pretty sure about that.

As for a Ruby/Pearl vs. HT3000/D80 analogy, don't hold your breath. The Ruby and Pearl are 2 different generations. The HT3000 and the D80 are the same generation. The HT3000 will be a superior machine. Worth the price difference? That's going to be a personal decision. But keep in mind, brightness is a key factor when it comes to selecting a front projector. If you have the right room, I would guess that the D80 would make you happy.

I would have a Pearl right now if I didn't have ambient light issues. Since ambient light is a problem, I have a C3X Lite.

Hope this helps,
Phil

woolfman - I will be interested in hearing your thoughts on it once you have demoed it. Have you seen many other 1080p single chippers? I would be interested, purely out of curiousity, on how the D80 compares to those.


pmd918 - Coming from a C3X lite owner, I am suprised (to say the least) to hear you would prefer a Pearl in a darkened room.

Seems like it might not light up a very big screen with its`160W lamp,

pmd918 - Coming from a C3X lite owner, I am suprised (to say the least) to hear you would prefer a Pearl in a darkened room.
I'm not sure that I would prefer the Pearl, but I would have been able to afford a Pearl + external video processor + screen for the price of my C3X Lite.

But I can say that I've seen the HT3000, and the Optoma single chip 1080p projectors, and I definitely prefer my 3-chip 720p machine to those.

My next projector will be a 3-chip 1080p DLP machine when prices come down from the stratosphere.

Thanks,
Phil

Phil - Me too!
I will have a another look at brightness of the D80 this weekend and give the exact distance and size of screen that they are using, all I remember from my last viewing was that it didn't certainly didn't seem dim.

"But I can say that I've seen the HT3000, and the Optoma single chip 1080p projectors, and I definitely prefer my 3-chip 720p machine to those."

Interesting. Is anything other than brightness and/or RBE?

Did anyone see much of the rainbow effect on the D80? Just curious. I personally have never had an issue with that but it seems a lot people say that can see it?

WOOLFMAN

I am not a big fan of the rainbow effect, I can see them but they don't bother me, and when seeing the D80 I was actively looking for them and still couldn't see any. For example, I can see rainbows quite easily on the H79, D35 and HT300e. I saw a handful of different HD DVDs (the usual ones used for demoing) and couldn't see any, all I got was a sense that the image wasn't quite as smooth as the C3X, but nothing my eyes could actually detect. Thats the only way I can describe it.

"But I can say that I've seen the HT3000, and the Optoma single chip 1080p projectors, and I definitely prefer my 3-chip 720p machine to those."

Interesting. Is anything other than brightness and/or RBE?
When I saw the both the HT3000 and the C3X at Cedia at the Sim2 booth, I thought that the image of the C3X had more depth.

Also, I sit no closer than 1.5x screen width from the screen, so the benefits of increased resolution are minimized.

With 1080p source material, the HT3000 may be better, but for now, I'll stick with my 3-chipper.

And I did not see any rainbows on the HT3000.

Phil

:p Well I got a chance to look at the D80 and what I can say its AWESOME. Comparativley speaking to the Ruby, it has a much smoother picture as well as the color detail is very crisp and vibrant. Seperation of colors is very clean and I could not detect the rainbow effect. I would assume this may be because it is using a newer color wheel which is faster which makes it more difficlut for the eye to pick up. I watched regualr dvd with a depth and color that I have never seen on a projector. The upconversion on this projector seems to work very well. Blu- Ray Material just left me in awe. Blacks are the blackest i have seen on a front pj. The screen was a 1.0 gain 110" and it was in a light controlled room. Brightness was not an issue for the D80. I think the single color wheel helps let as much light through vs others technologies that makes the light go through 3 panels before leaving the projector. I may be wrong here just my observation. The unit is very small in size which makes it more appealing to me as it takes up very little ceiling space. I am really excited to get this set-up in my house and get some real viewing time on it. I will update everyone after I get some time on it. So far I am thrilled I held off and waited on this one. LCD is a great technology but DLP was visually more appealing to me.

BTW-

Hi all

I saw this projector today at an exhibition in London. Wow! What a piece of kit. It makes my PJTX200 look absouletly bland. I also see rainbows with DLP but not on the D80.

But £7000. :(

How much did you pay for yours woolfman?

I'm hoping to upgrade around this time next year. Hopefully there'll be another model out at around £5000.

Cheers

Wil

Wilt - I cannot tell you exactly but i will say that I got a heck of a deal considering the dealer only recieved a few. It was south of the list price of $9999. I will update this thread once I get this unit up and going.

The D80 is just as bright as the HT3000, according to SIM2 tech support.

Eric

I saw the D80 today at a London show, along with a D35, C3X and HT5000. All of them looked much better than an admittedly poorly set up Ruby (probably shown literally out if the box). It was the first time I'd seen the Ruby and I know it is capable of a better image, but even the D35 looked sharper/more detailed with more image depth and better colour accuracy. I think it just goes to show how important set up is, even with fixed pixel displays.

Gary

Yeah, I was there too, great sim2 demo. I was the first person there and watched half an hour of the MI3 HD DVD on the HT5000 - cheers sim2! The HT5000 is pretty incredible, you could see every pore on people's faces in closeup shots and was very obvious when the camera went slightly out of focus. Its also incredibly big! I wouldn't feel safe having that thing hovering over me if ceiling mounted. They had it projected about 15/16' away (you would need to give room for the 3' of projector though!) and it projected a very bright image on a 12' screen, they changed their tune since the last time I saw them and said there might be alpha light path version of this next CEDIA. It was obviously the best pj I have seen but, to be honest, if it had been shown it on the same size screen as the C3X, I would be hard pushed to see much more detail. As far as depth of image goes they looked very close.
Now onto 1080p single-chip...
I saw the sharp Z20000, the Projectiondesign model 3 1080p, the sim2 HT3000 and the D80. For me, the D80 had the best image, just more refined than the others. Admittedly the Z2000 was not in the best setup, and there was a little ambient light, but still it didn't look as sharp... as the D80. The model 3 looked brighter but not necessarily better, for most homes I imagine the D80 would be bright enough and at half the price definately better value. Unless you need a really bright projector, I wouldn't go for the model 3. I think there must be some very good processing in the D80 as it looked clean, pin sharp with considerable depth. The HT3000 was in a seperate booth but you could tell there was an almost imperceptible difference between them. We were roughly 9' away from the screen, the D80 was about 10' away, projecting what I would imagine to be a 8' image. The room was 'lights off' but apart from that, didn't seem to have any other special effort toward light control. The D80 looked very bright in that setup and you could probably push it further.
I still think a C3X is a better bet though...
The D35 looked very nice too, although I felt the Projectiondesign model 2 had more depth of image and was the best 720p pj there. Make of all that what you will!

EDIT: Asking for opinions from some of other people that went with me, they reckon the HT5000 was more like 14' from the screen and the D80 more like 11'.

"The D80 looked very bright in that setup and you could probably push it further.
I still think a C3X is a better bet though..."

Could you elaborate on that?

Thanks

The D80 was (I am estimating here) 11 feet from the screen. This is just a guess from the couple of times I have seen it demoed, but I would reckon beyond 14-15 feet and you might well need a high gain screen in a light controlled room.
The C3X was about one foot further back and the image was the same vertical height but anamorphic widescreen. It did look brighter but not as much as I imagined it would at the given distance. Of course, I don't know if the anamorphic lens affects brightness at all.
I did prefer the image on the C3X because it protrayed more depth, colours are more vibrant and I think that 3 chip technology can't be beaten for highly dynamic scenes. The D80 did look sharper, probably the sharpest projector at the show after the HT5000. It also produced a lot of depth, more so than any other projector there bar the 3 chip sim2s and not quite as much as the projectiondesign model 3.

I have to bring one of these in for review purposes. If anyone is looking to buy one and would be interested in the review sample after I am done, PM me.

This past friday a Magnolia store opened in Fresno. I was able to demo a Sony Pearl 1080p. When comparing it to my Sim2 300e it was not as good. That's IMHO. The image was nice but it lacked the sharp crispness that a DLP has. I believe if the sales man saw my 300e he would agree. My hd dvd looked better than the hd dvd they showed. Since its only a few miles away I will check it out again and ask if its focused properly. In any event I am delighted to have a highend store in the area. Thanks Greg

This seems to be a recurring theme when the Pearl (and even the Ruby) are compared to better DLP projectors. The Sonys look soft...lacking in sharpness or focus. The proponents of Pearl/Ruby, on the other hand, prefer to characterize this as "smooth" and "film-like". The corrolary in loudspeakers might be the "laid back" sound of a british loudspeaker vs. the crisp detailed voicing of ...say a Dynaudio.

For those that are interested, this is from a sim2 retailer in the UK
"The throw ratio of the D80 is 1.5-2:1 so at 4m throw the max screen width would be 2.66m (105") and the min screen width would be 2m (78.74")"

Anybody thinking of getting a 1080p single chip should check out what people are saying on AVforums regarding this projector.

This seems to be a recurring theme when the Pearl (and even the Ruby) are compared to better DLP projectors. The Sonys look soft...lacking in sharpness or focus. The proponents of Pearl/Ruby, on the other hand, prefer to characterize this as "smooth" and "film-like". The corrolary in loudspeakers might be the "laid back" sound of a british loudspeaker vs. the crisp detailed voicing of ...say a Dynaudio.
Well the Pearl at the same show looked so poor that I can only assume it was setup really badly - you could call it soft or lacking in sharpness or focus - or you could just call it crap :)
I was hoping that someone who saw this setup, had also seen one set up correctly and could comment?

I have seen both brands side by side. It appears to me that the LCD units just have a really hard time giving pictures that punch as well as doing a good job of seperating the greys and blacks. The DLP does a much better job of representing the truer colors of shades of darks. The pearl i saw was showinng a scene with a actress with a black sweater on in a shaded area. The sweater looked totally black but when we saw the same scene on the sim2 d80 you could see the shadows as well as pieces if fray coming from the fringe of the sweater. This little detail means a lot when you are looking at a 1080i material. Just another observation from me.

WOOLFMAN

I wanted to do a quick update on this pj. many have contatced me with my thoughts on it so I thought it appropiate to update this thread. I was very happy with the original purchase but after 2 months I am exasperated at how awesome this unit is. I have done very little to twaek this pj and I am in complete awe of the image quality and light output. I have yet to have any problems with this unit and would highly recommend if you are in the market for a over 5 k pj to check this one out. I have never seen so much detail in a pj until this one. I still have to remark how well this SIM2 can reproduce colors in the most natural look as well as the abilty to display shadows down to the littlest details.

As fas as sports go. I feel like I am in the game. 110' screen with the pj mounted 16' back and the 1st rows of berk's is the hot set-up. I would rather be a couch potato and watch from the comfort of my home rather than go to any cold game in the winter. :) Please let me know if you need further details.

WOOLFMAN

Woolfman,
Thanks for your comments on the D80. I'm waiting for my local HT shop to get one up and runnining so I can see for myself. What sources are you using? I'm interested in how SD DVD's look through a universal player using component inputs. Do you have a HD or Blu-Ray player, or maybe an Oppo 981 upconverting SD DVD's? Any info on this would be great, thanks.

I am actually using a Sony SD DVD upconverting to 1080. I saw Blu_ray at the shop and it looked even better obviously. There is one nice feature I like about the d80 is no matter what the source the pictures look good even on non digital content. We watch a lot of pay per view 1080 stuff so this does look great also. I am waiting on the format wars to end but I am starting to lean toward the hd-dvd because of unit prices as well as available titles. Hope this helps.

Woolfman

Thanks Woolfman,
I will be waiting anxiously to see one myself, hopefully in the next two weeks or so.

All I can say after 4 months of use is this is one AWESOME DLP. Hope you have the opportunity to see one becase it rocks.

I look forward to checking one of these pjs out soon ... I have a viewing with my dealer, even though I must say that I am not ready AT ALL to trade in my c3x!!!

720p is still doing the job for me!

cheers