OK Pearl owners, it seems that the new 1080p update to the 360 does not work with most, if not all, Sony televisions/projectors. Specs on the Pearl say that it will accept a max VGA input of 1920x1080 fV:60Hz. But it is not working from the Xbox360 VGA update. Any thouhts on how to resolve this other than yell at Microsoft/Sony?

----Edit----
Turns out Sony does not claim that they can do 1080 through VGA.

Page 64/65 of the manual. Input A computer signal only goes to 1280x768 which is what I have found.

I read page 61 where it states acceptable computer signals Maximum Res 1920x1080 fV:60Hz. But they are talking computer signal through HDMI and not VGA.

Dunno, planning to get my Xbox VGA cable on the way home from work though.

microsoft/sony = lead/feather oxi morons!
just had to type that;) Sorry, my pearl's on it's way, but I don't own a 360....I'm sure others will chime in for ya.....good luck...that should look awsome when you get it fixed.....

I do want to know though are you just not seeing a picture? Or getting an error message from the Pearl? Something else?

I think the problem is the Sony Pearl (and most TV's) with VGA inputs do not accept a 1080p signal over the VGA port. Only the digital HDMI, or DVI ports will accept 1080p signals in most cases. Since the 360 does not have a digital output, that's why you won't get it to work. I think the VGA 1080p output will work with some computer monitors though.

On a side note, The Playstation 3 is to include a HDMI port that should pass a digital 1080p signal to the Pearl without a hitch.

On VGA, I get a picture but only at 1024x768 I believe. Colors are way dim. I get this whenever trying to go above 1280x768.

On component I get an error of 'Frequency is out of range!'

Upset mostly because I checked the Pearl for 1920x1080 over VGA capability. It says it is there. I have input A set to computer which is the only setting to give me a picture at all. The manual says to use Component when connecting to a BluRay drive, etc. This gives me no picture at all.

Don't get me wrong, picture still blows the AE900 away for Xbox games. Just was hoping for a cheap HD-DVD solution until Gen 3 players come out.

Hmmmm, strange. Like I said I need to pick it up on the way home but is there the same HD switch on the side like the component cables?

Like you already stated, strange that you have these problems seeing as the manual says you should be good to go.

On VGA, I get a picture but only at 1024x768 I believe. Colors are way dim. I get this whenever trying to go above 1280x768.

On component I get an error of 'Frequency is out of range!'

Upset mostly because I checked the Pearl for 1920x1080 over VGA capability. It says it is there. I have input A set to computer which is the only setting to give me a picture at all. The manual says to use Component when connecting to a BluRay drive, etc. This gives me no picture at all.

Don't get me wrong, picture still blows the AE900 away for Xbox games. Just was hoping for a cheap HD-DVD solution until Gen 3 players come out.

My advice is to feed the XBOX 1920x1080 interlaced via component. It looks excellent, the Pearl will deinterlace it properly to yield full 1080p frames.

I made a thread about this earlier this AM, but it seems to have been lost...
Anyway, I am having the exact same problem...dim picture, wierd resolution, etc. I was also unable to get my Pearl to display 1920 X 1080 from my computer. Oh well, maybe M$ will give us a fix. (Crosses fingers but doesn't hold breath)

Hmmmm, strange. Like I said I need to pick it up on the way home but is there the same HD switch on the side like the component cables?

Like you already stated, strange that you have these problems seeing as the manual says you should be good to go.

Nope, no switch.

I was also unable to get my Pearl to display 1920 X 1080 from my computer. Oh well, maybe M$ will give us a fix. (Crosses fingers but doesn't hold breath)

If the PEARL cannot handle 1920x1080p from a computer via VGA, this is probably not something that M$ needs to fix. It's something Sony needs to fix.

FWIW, I'm running my PEARL from a computer outputting 1920x1080, but via DVI, not VGA.

Yeah, same for me, via DVI is great. I have not tried a PC into the VGA. Not going to be happy if Sony is quoting a feature they cannot actually support. I will try hooking up the PC to it as well.

The frequency is barely out of range. It sucks. In the manual, it lists an acceptable 1080/60p frequency of fh(kHz) 67.5 / fV(Hz) 60. If you switch the XBOX 360 to 1080p and bring up the information section of the menu, you'll probably see the horizontal frequency is 67.62 (I think that's what mine was) while staring at that nice blue screen before the 360 reverts back to a previous resolution.

I can only guess that is why we are getting the error.

I think the problem is Microsoft forgot the HDMI output on the 360. :D :D :D Just another reason to go PS3.

I think the problem is Microsoft forgot the HDMI output on the 360. :D :D :D

I'm going to go try and make my HDMI cable fit into SOMETHING on the 360.

This is NOT a Pearl issue in my mind, but a Microsoft issue for not doing HDMI on the 360. It is not unusual for a 1080p display to not accept a 1080p signal over VGA. I see this 1080p update as a big joke, unless Microsoft brings out some sort of HDMI cable. Most TV's cant accept a 1080p signal over component, and not all TV's have a VGA, and even if they do, a lot of them will not take a 1080p signal. Just feed the Pearl a 1080i signal and let the Pearl upconvert and it will look just as good most likely.

I love my 360, but this was clearly a mistake made by Microsoft to not have HDMI compatibility, especially in light of the HD-DVD add on :confused: .

Agreed. It's definitely short-sightedness on Microsoft's part not to offer HDMI when they have claimed that the Xbox 360 is already capable of supporting digital video output. Why limit the choices? Anyway, looking at the Pearl manual more carefully, it clearly states in there that it will only accept the 1920 X 1080 via the HDMI connections. Bah!

You might want to try the 50 Hz mode to see if it helps...

Agreed. It's definitely short-sightedness on Microsoft's part not to offer HDMI when they have claimed that the Xbox 360 is already capable of supporting digital video output. Why limit the choices? Anyway, looking at the Pearl manual more carefully, it clearly states in there that it will only accept the 1920 X 1080 via the HDMI connections. Bah!

WOW... :eek: page 64/65 of the manual. Input A computer signal only goes to 1280x768 which is what I have found.

Man I read page 61 where it states acceptable computer signals Maximum Res 1920x1080 fV:60Hz. But you are right, they are talking computer signal through HDMI and not VGA. :mad:

Well, there is my answer. Back to 1080i component for me.

Agreed. It's definitely short-sightedness on Microsoft's part not to offer HDMI when they have claimed that the Xbox 360 is already capable of supporting digital video output.

Just a guess on my part, but I wonder if the 360 is in fact built to support HDCP? I can't see otherwise why MS wouldn't have already released a HDMI cable already... it's just extra revenue for them. They could easily be fudging now (obviously it could support digital output but not HDCP), knowing that they can bring out a 360 with built-in HD-DVD and HDMI/HDCP support down the road if they need to.

I think VGA was going to be the only way to go with the Peal... too bad it won't work : (

The Pearl still upconverts the 1080i over component, correct? Does this not look good for some reason on the Pearl? I would not think there would be any difference between the 360 sending a 1080p signal, and the Pearl upconverting a 1080i signal to 1080p in real world viewing?

The Pearl still upconverts the 1080i over component, correct? Does this not look good for some reason on the Pearl? I would not think there would be any difference between the 360 sending a 1080p signal, and the Pearl upconverting a 1080i signal to 1080p in real world viewing?


Well the reality is that any of the Gen 1 players are 1080i right now anyways and none of the games are 1080p yet. Would it be better? Don't know, don't have anything to compare it to! :p That is what I am trying to get to, I have seen how beautiful this thing is with feeding it lower material, I want to stretch it's legs some! To that end, I will have to wait to see the comparisons of the 360 to the A1 or A2 or XA2 for that matter.

What really gets me is Microsoft's claim that this is the "Ultimate Console" as it says on their website. I wish it were, but 1080p HDMI and the ability to eventually do Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD via HDMI is clearly a miss. I bought their idea of how they were getting around the HDCP for a while at least.

Games still look fantastic I am sure though, even without the 360 doing 1080p, right?

Yes absolutely. I am just trying to figure out now if I want 1080i or 720p. The games are 720p and with the VGA cable and the Pearl in dynamic mode they really look fantastic. The VGA cable tends to wash the colors out and the Dynamic mode brings it back looking better than component in my mind. But I would assume that HD-DVD is looking better in 1080i? Will have to try tweaking it tonight.

The Pearl still upconverts the 1080i over component, correct? Does this not look good for some reason on the Pearl? I would not think there would be any difference between the 360 sending a 1080p signal, and the Pearl upconverting a 1080i signal to 1080p in real world viewing?

To be pedantic: the Pearl would de-interlace 1080i to 1080p.

"Upconvert" typically implies scaling.

The Pearl still upconverts the 1080i over component, correct? Does this not look good for some reason on the Pearl? I would not think there would be any difference between the 360 sending a 1080p signal, and the Pearl upconverting a 1080i signal to 1080p in real world viewing?

Yup. :cool:

Thanks for the clarification scaesare, and the info everyone :)

To be pedantic: the Pearl would de-interlace 1080i to 1080p.

"Upconvert" typically implies scaling.

Ah, now that is a description I can live with better. Thanks for the symantics.

In all, what I have found honestly is that in games the 720p component from the 360 and having the Pearl upconvert to 1080p looks the best. I would assume this is because the Pearl can do this conversion better than the 360. The 1080i and the VGA just has a little bit, I do mean little bit, more noise in the picture (potentially due to my long cable run).

We shall see what the reviews are like for their HD-DVD drive.

Ah, now that is a description I can live with better. Thanks for the symantics.

In all, what I have found honestly is that in games the 720p component from the 360 and having the Pearl upconvert to 1080p looks the best. I would assume this is because the Pearl can do this conversion better than the 360. The 1080i and the VGA just has a little bit, I do mean little bit, more noise in the picture (potentially due to my long cable run).

We shall see what the reviews are like for their HD-DVD drive.

I have found that 1080i over component is preferable to 720p over component. When you make the comparison, make sure you're using a 1080i game (there are several of these). If you output 720p for a 1080i game, you're losing half your resolution.

Huh, didn't know there were 1080i games. Any titles you know of off hand?

Huh, didn't know there were 1080i games. Any titles you know of off hand?

Oblivion (AWESOME game if you like RPGs), Kameo, Prey. A bunch of others. Just look on the back of the box and it will tell you whether or not it supports 1080i.

My advice is to feed the XBOX 1920x1080 interlaced via component. It looks excellent, the Pearl will deinterlace it properly to yield full 1080p frames.

How does that work?

Oblivion (AWESOME game if you like RPGs), Kameo, Prey. A bunch of others. Just look on the back of the box and it will tell you whether or not it supports 1080i.

I don't believe he was referring to whether a game "supports" 1080i. Every game for the XBOX 360 (including backwards compatible XBOX games) can be output in 1080i. I think he's referring to what resolution the game was designed for. I believe most 360 games are 720p or lower (PGR3). If you output in 1080i, the 360 scales them to that resolution. Same idea as an upconverting DVD player. You'll get a 1080i feed to your display device, but the recorded content is still 480p.

How does that work?

All signals fed to the Pearl will be displayed at 1080p, since that is the display resolution of the panel.

If you select 1080i as the output resolution of the XBOX360, you can send the 1080i signal to the Pearl via analog component input. Upon receiving the 1080i signal, the Pearl will weave the odd and even fields together to produce true 1080p frames for display.

I don't believe he was referring to whether a game "supports" 1080i. Every game for the XBOX 360 (including backwards compatible XBOX games) can be output in 1080i. I think he's referring to what resolution the game was designed for. I believe most 360 games are 720p or lower (PGR3). If you output in 1080i, the 360 scales them to that resolution. Same idea as an upconverting DVD player. You'll get a 1080i feed to your display device, but the recorded content is still 480p.

I don't want to get into an argument about the definition of the word "supports," so I'll leave that one alone. But I can assure you that I was not referring simply to whether or not the XBOX could output the game at 1080i. I was referring to whether or not the max "real" resolution of the game itself was 1080i.

If you look on the back of the game box, some of them say 720p. Others say 720p/1080i. My assumption has always been that the games that say 1080i display additional detail when output at 1080i -- they certainly appear sharper on my display than games that only indicate 720p.

A good comparison involves Ghost Recon and Prey. Both are first person shooters, and both are being output from my 360 to my Pearl in 1080i. The main difference is that GR says "720p" on the back of the box, while Prey indicates 1080i. And yes, Prey does look about twice as sharp as Ghost Recon.

Could it be something else besides resolution causing this increase in sharpness? Sure, it could be many things. But the effect is one that I have seen on all 720p games vs. 1080i games, all comparisons made at the 1080i output resolution.

A good comparison involves Ghost Recon and Prey. Both are first person shooters, and both are being output from my 360 to my Pearl in 1080i. The main difference is that GR says "720p" on the back of the box, while Prey indicates 1080i. And yes, Prey does look about twice as sharp as Ghost Recon.

Could it be something else besides resolution causing this increase in sharpness? Sure, it could be many things. But the effect is one that I have seen on all 720p games vs. 1080i games, all comparisons made at the 1080i output resolution.

What about when the packaging states "480p/720p/1080i"? Which one is the game's native resolution?

Based on what I've read (which could admittedly been false), the impression I've had is that most games are 720p (with PGR3 supposedly not even being that). That's where I imagine the comment came from earlier in the thread.

If they got Prey to 1080i with a stable frame rate in single-player (I know it's questionable in MP, so maybe it is), hats off to them.

I would be shocked if the labelling on the package means what you assume it means. I'm not saying I know for sure it doesn't - again, that's just the impression I've always had based on what I've read in other forums/websites.

Given how many times the resolution was wrong/missing on the old XBOX packaging, I wouldn't be able to give much weight to what is stuck on there even if it did.

What about when the packaging states "480p/720p/1080i"? Which one is the game's native resolution?

Assuming that the information on the package is correct, my assumption is that the highest mentioned resolution will display additional data.

I don't even know if asking for the "native" resolution of a game is the right terminology, since a game can use textures and images of various resolutions even within the same ouput resolution. To me, the question is whether or not there is any additional detail available when the game is output in the higher resolution (higher resolution textures, etc.)


Based on what I've read (which could admittedly been false), the impression I've had is that most games are 720p (with PGR3 supposedly not even being that). That's where I imagine the comment came from earlier in the thread.

If you have some supporting documentation that verifies that the max resolution of the games themselves is 720p, I would very much like to read this. I'm not saying this as a challenge; I really would like to read it, to increase my own knowledge.


If they got Prey to 1080i with a stable frame rate in single-player (I know it's questionable in MP, so maybe it is), hats off to them.

All I know is that it looks like 1920x1080 to me. I guess I could be wrong. Oblivion is an example of a game ported from the PC which should be able to support the higher resolution, but the question is whether or not it could be supported on the XBOX hardware. My assumption is that Oblivion supports 1920x1080, which might explain some of the framerate issues.



Given how many times the resolution was wrong/missing on the old XBOX packaging, I wouldn't be able to give much weight to what is stuck on there even if it did.

On this point, I agree with you. My experience is related only to the games I have personally seen (only about 6, to be honest) and may not be representative of what a person would experience based on the lables of games in general.

I still think that some games support additional detail when output at 1080i. Again, if you have an article or data proving otherwise, please post a link.

I'm not sure what all the sources were that gave me that impression, but here's some quick verbage I found that is something that supports the "720p" mentality some of us have with the 360 (and whether that CNET site knows what they are talking about, I can't say, either - I'm just giving an example as to where the line of thinking comes from...). You'll see a line in there that mentions that the 360 renders everything at 720p then scales to whatever resolution you have selected. To me, that made sense to me since I can't see different assets being available on the disc based on different resolutions supported. They'd pretty much have to pick one in the console world - at least, I would think they would. Again, I could be wrong.

http://www.cnet.com.au/games/xbox/0,239029621,240060560-2,00.htm

I too, was banking on the VGA, for 1080p. Are all the hd dvd disks 1080p?

For full blown graphics tour de force the 360 can't render images at 1080p. Its architecture prohibits it from such a task.

This software fix/update is not a graphical upgrade. This so called fix is nothing more than an instruction set aimed at the scaler/deinterlacing capabilities of the console. In other words graphical detail will not go up since the native frame buffer size/embedded RAM of the 360's GPU wasn't designed to ever go beyond the 1080i mark. This "fix" is useless for anything and everything but a display device sporting a bad scaler/deinterlacer.

I think you'll be quite safe from a picture quality point of view by simply sending an 1080i signal letting the Pearl do the deinterlacing.

btw the 360 is rendering at 960x540 when you select 1080i , that's why PRG3 render at it's rez (the only one i think), in 1080p the upscaler will do 720p to 1080p.

There a couple of games next year witch are RUMORED to support 1080p natively like Lost Planet from Capcom.. and others, but mostly likely it will be thin...

I'm not sure what all the sources were that gave me that impression, but here's some quick verbage I found that is something that supports the "720p" mentality some of us have with the 360 (and whether that CNET site knows what they are talking about, I can't say, either - I'm just giving an example as to where the line of thinking comes from...). You'll see a line in there that mentions that the 360 renders everything at 720p then scales to whatever resolution you have selected. To me, that made sense to me since I can't see different assets being available on the disc based on different resolutions supported. They'd pretty much have to pick one in the console world - at least, I would think they would. Again, I could be wrong.

http://www.cnet.com.au/games/xbox/0,239029621,240060560-2,00.htm

Well now that's very interesting. It's too bad they don't make 1080i resolution test patterns for the XBOX (not HD-DVD, but something that would pass through the GPU like a game) to test this.

I'll run some tests tomorrow to see if I can verify this one way or the other, with my naked eye being the only real reference.

P.S.

I've been trying to find an answer on-line, but it remains elusive. I did find interview with Todd Holmdahl, which does suggest that a game can support higher than 720p resolution. The real question is whether or not any of them do.
http://interviews.teamxbox.com/xbox/1190/Xbox-360-Interview-Todd-Holmdahl/p1/

Todd Holmdahl: Xbox 360 offers choice for both the game developer and the end consumer. The game developer can create their game in any resolution. The consumer can request any output resolution (480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i). The Xbox 360’s advanced video scaler will scale the game’s native resolution to the end consumer’s requested resolution.

btw the 360 is rendering at 960x540 when you select 1080i

Do you have a source for this? I would like to read it.

All signals fed to the Pearl will be displayed at 1080p, since that is the display resolution of the panel.

If you select 1080i as the output resolution of the XBOX360, you can send the 1080i signal to the Pearl via analog component input. Upon receiving the 1080i signal, the Pearl will weave the odd and even fields together to produce true 1080p frames for display.

To further gremmy's excellent description:

For 60i displays, the XBox will render progressive frames internally. It will then extract two fields (odd & even) from each frame. It will send these frames at the 60i signal rate to the Pearl.

When the Pearl perfoms the process gremmy described (weaving), because each field is generated from the same original frame, and thus the same instant in time, the reconstructed frames the Pearl displays are EXACTLY identical to the original XBox rendered frames.

Net result: despite 60i being the transport scheme bewtween the XBox and the Pearl, you receieve a perfect progressive image on the Pearl. Incidentally, this is how it works for film based disks on progressive diaslays as well (except for the annoying judder from framerate differences).

Thanks for all the input guys. My apologies for getting this a little off topic of projectors, but I really want to know what I bought in the Pearl and its capabilities.

So the fact that the current generation of Blu-Ray and HD-DVD players outputs only 1080i60 is not a big deal in terms of resolution since it comes from a true 1080p24 source, correct? It isn't like we are actually losing data. The next gen 1080p60 players also really doesn't matter to the Pearl since it is already doing that within the projector. The only improvement I will see by getting a future generation player would be getting one that can natively output 1080p24 to get rid of the uneven frame doubling that occurs in order to match the refresh rate of 60Hz. So we could get a smoother picture when it comes to motion and camera pans but not any clearer or more detail.

This is also where video processors like DVDO come in as they can take the 1080i60 frame rate and reproduce the original 1080p24 frames today, correct?

Now the benefit of the PS3 is that it is a native 1080p60 game console where all of the games are expected to run in 1080p. Unfortunately whether the individual games will take part in this is questionable and if I understand right, the only game in development right now would be Gran Turismo HD. So even the PS3 is questionable as to how much resolution we will truly get in the games. It is also questionable if the PS3 will ever support 1080p24 for Blu-Ray movies.

Now the benefit of the PS3 is that it is a native 1080p60 game console where all of the games are expected to run in 1080p. Unfortunately whether the individual games will take part in this is questionable and if I understand right, the only game in development right now would be Gran Turismo HD. So even the PS3 is questionable as to how much resolution we will truly get in the games. It is also questionable if the PS3 will ever support 1080p24 for Blu-Ray movies.

Sony has already stated that some of their launch games for the PS3, such as 'Fall of Man', render internally in 720p.

My advice is to feed the XBOX 1920x1080 interlaced via component. It looks excellent, the Pearl will deinterlace it properly to yield full 1080p frames.

1080i on film content (24fps) is equivalent to 1080p if properly inverse telecined / deinterlaced.

Not so with computer or game output. With a 60fps source, 1080i actually causes the computer or game console to output either 60 distinct 1920x540 fields (with motion differences in every field) or to drop the effective progressive frame rate to 30 and output the two halves of a full 1920x1080 frame, one half per 60i field.

When the HD DVD drive is available for the 360, I would recommend the component cable for the reasons mentioned above - no loss in information (assuming the Pearl does a proper job on the deinterlace / IVTC.

Since none of the current 360 games actually render 1080p output, you'd be much better off outputting the native 720p over VGA (or component, although VGA looks slightly better) and letting the Pearl upscale the picture. 1080i output for games should yield no tangible benefit, unless the 360 does a much better job scaling than the Pearl.

There was an Xbox360 update at the end of November that was supposed to fix a lot of 1080p compatability issues.. and I spoke with Sony on the phone to verify what I see in this spec sheet for the pearl...
http://www.iq.sony.com/srvs/DocsConnect/docget.asp?manualid=77030&DL=',600,560,10,10,'Manuals'

It says the PC input (the D-Sub connector aka Input-A) should support 1920x1080@60hz so I don't know why people are saying that 1080p over vga wont work exactly... The sony rep I spoke to said it should work fine. I need to get a long enough VGA cable for my xbox to reach but wanted to know if anyone has tried this since the second dashboard update that was supposed to fix the issue before I buy a cable to run to the projector.

Thanks!

That dashboard update on the XBOX produces 1920x1080 on compatible devices, but not on the Pearl. And this appears to be a Pearl problem. Connect a PC vga output set to 1920x1080 to the PEARL vga input and it doesn't work, either.

I wish it weren't true, but the spec sheet you link to is less accurate than the specs in the manual, which explain the issue well (ie, "full HD" from computer sources on the HDMI input, but not on the VGA input, on the Pearl).

Count me as one who would find it VERY USEFUL for the Pearl's VGA input to accept "full HD".

Weird, so I guess the sony person at tech support didn't know what they were talking about when they said it would work? that is super lame.

Sad but apparently true.

I'd love to be proved wrong. If you get it working, please please please tell us how!

I think component worked at 1080P with the Pearl, but VGA did not for sure.

Problem with component at 1080P is for some reason the HD-DVD drive only outputs 1080i over component.

Is it a hardware thing that prevents the Sony Pearl from viewing 1080p over VGA or could sony offer a firmware update to allow the 1080p signal over VGA?

The Pearl will only accept 1080p over HDMI. There has been some confusion over what the manual has said in the past, but if you read it carefully, you see that this only applies to the HDMI input and not the VGA. The VGA input is limited to something in the ballpark of 1024 x 768. Also, component on the pearl will not accept 1080p, only 1080i.

is the input capabilities of the input-a limited to 1024x768 due to the fV and fH paramaters on the spec sheet?

The Pearl will only accept 1080p over HDMI. There has been some confusion over what the manual has said in the past, but if you read it carefully, you see that this only applies to the HDMI input and not the VGA. The VGA input is limited to something in the ballpark of 1024 x 768. Also, component on the pearl will not accept 1080p, only 1080i.

Have you ever used one?

Have you ever used one?


Yes, I have one. Besides, the subject was beaten to death on here a few months ago. There is no way you can get 1080p from a 360 to a Pearl without using a processor that can accept 1080p over component or vga and can out put it to the Pearl over HDMI.

Try using the 360 with a component cable into InputA on the Pearl at 1080P...You might be surprised. I was.

But it does not help with HD-DVD as its max is 1080i over component and VGA at 1080P is indeed a no go.

So can someone explain to me why, since I searched and don't see it spelled out...

What is the deal with the 1080p from the xbox that prevents it from working over the D-SUB connector? Or said differently, what exactly is the deal with the D-Sub connector input range that means 1920x1080 doesn't work. Sorry if this is a dumb question.

I've spoken with sony twice and they insist that 1920x1080 should work over the Input A connector.