"............among my generation, ............................."
And just what is the author's generation?

And just what is the author's generation?

I tried to find a bio on the author, no luck.

Why even attempt a review if he doesn't appreciate the artist?

I tried to find a bio on the author, no luck.

Why even attempt a review if he doesn't appreciate the artist?
I DID think his 5 categories were pretty much correct.

I thought it was well written - but also how many other categories could there be :D . I'm in the Gabriel was great category.

I thought it was well written - but also how many other categories could there be :D . I'm in the Gabriel was great category.

At least one: "Some of their albums are better than others, and the lead singer isn't necessarily the reason why."

I think Selling England and Trick are their two best albums. I also like Duke, Wind, and Foxtrot. Lamb and Nursery Cryme have their moments, but they're not high on my list overall as complete albums.

And in general, I regret Hackett's departure from the band more than Gabriel's.

r

I DID think his 5 categories were pretty much correct.

Agreed the catagories were...well...lets just say their aren't may more options. :D

I sill expect to pick up ATOTT when is sold solo...the others don't interest me much...

Agreed Hacket was as much a part of Genesis as PG.

Reading music reviews is a complete waste of time IMO - always has been, always will be. I suppose some would argue there may be some merit in assessing technical competence in a recording, however reviewing creative content is pointless.

Why are there so many bands and so many different kinds of music? BECAUSE WE ALL LIKE DIFFERENT THINGS!

I can listen to Genesis and think they are the most creative band in the history of rock music; someone else can listen and think they are a meandering mess. Both are OPINIONS based on individual taste, are perfectly valid, and completely irrelevant to other listeners.

Do I find the technical performance (i.e. compression) of these recordings a little dissapointing, YES; however, on my $45,000 speakers and $40,000 electronics :D they are unquestionably the best sounding versions of these classic albums yet available.

I figured I'd bump this thread to report that the Rhino US boxset, which is over $100 at most places, is available for $50 with free shipping from bestbuy.com. I was going to pass on this set and the import SACD set due to the bad reviews, but at $50, I bit for the non-SACD version. Hope this might help someone.

Genesis US Boxset (http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=8283966&st=genesis&lp=9&type=product&cp=1&id=1637891)

I still think it's unfortunate that they "dropped" the SACD feature from the US sets. I would definitely get it for $50 if they had included SACDs.

I still think it's unfortunate that they "dropped" the SACD feature from the US sets. I would definitely get it for $50 if they had included SACDs.

I hear ya, but since the SACD versions are not turning out to be hi-rez superstars (and perhaps the exact opposite), I don't feel I'll be missing too much with the DTS surround tracks. And trust me, I have several hundred SACD's and DVD-A's, so it was not an easy decision for me to bypass the SACD's. But in this case, I don't feel I'll miss the hi-rez like I would for the Talking Heads, Moody Blues, Elton John, etc. releases. And the price was too good for me to pass up.

I figured I'd bump this thread to report that the Rhino US boxset, which is over $100 at most places, is available for $50 with free shipping from bestbuy.com. I was going to pass on this set and the import SACD set due to the bad reviews, but at $50, I bit for the non-SACD version.
Jeez, that IS cheap! Wish I had waited.



I still think it's unfortunate that they "dropped" the SACD feature from the US sets. I would definitely get it for $50 if they had included SACDs.
I hear ya, but since the SACD versions are not turning out to be hi-rez superstars (and perhaps the exact opposite), I don't feel I'll be missing too much with the DTS surround tracks. And trust me, I have several hundred SACD's and DVD-A's, so it was not an easy decision for me to bypass the SACD's. But in this case, I don't feel I'll miss the hi-rez like I would for the Talking Heads, Moody Blues, Elton John, etc. releases. And the price was too good for me to pass up.
If you're really a Genesis fan, I certainly wouldn't let the SACDs (or lack thereof) be the deal-breaker. $50 is pretty damn cheap for 6 CD/DVDs. The box set is pretty nice. I think some of the bonus content, especially the present-day interviews (16:9, btw), on the DVDs is great (although some of it isn't so great).

As far as the DVDs being DTS, at least they are 96kHz/24bit DTS and not simply regular DTS. It's still very unclear to me exactly what the quality of DTS 96/24 really is relative to regular DTS, SACD, or DVD-A.

Yeah you are right about the price. I did some checking online and $50 is way below what everyone else is charging even for the non-SACD set. I decided to go ahead and order it since there are quite a few tracks in the box set that I haven't heard yet.

Yeah you are right about the price. I did some checking online and $50 is way below what everyone else is charging even for the non-SACD set. I decided to go ahead and order it since there are quite a few tracks in the box set that I haven't heard yet.
Yep, that's gotta be hard to resist. :D

I picked up the box set with DVD-A's at Sam's Club last week for $90.

I picked up the box set with DVD-A's at Sam's Club last week for $90.

I'd say, order the set from bestbuy, and return the new unopened box to Sam's Club with that receipt. $50 is better than $90. Oh, and they're not true DVD-A's, just DVD's with DTS surround tracks.

The set I picked up from BB tonight has the usual yellow BB price sticker but it should be fairly easy for you to remove that if you want to return to the other store.

I picked up the box set with DVD-A's at Sam's Club last week for $90.
There is no set with "DVD-As". ;)

Wish there was.

Has anyone heard anything about the release of the next box-set? The original timeframe was June/July but I haven't heard anything about pre-ordering, and it seems they were taking pre-orders for the first one in January for a April release.

Now I know what you are going to say, after the disappointing mastering on the first (76-82) group, "I am not picking up the second one". And I agree, maybe I would pick up "Genesis" and a small possibility of "Invisible Touch" (if the 13-year-old nastalgic boy inside of has his way --- first kisses to In Too Deep).

But I am worried about the third release, and I don't want this ball dropped.

Thanks for reading.

Second set Delayed to September 2007

Second set Delayed to September 2007
I'll need hearing aids by the time the third set, the one I want, comes out. :p :D

I need hearing aids after listening to the first set :eek: ;) Ouch.

:D

Went to BB and picked up the boxed set for $50 today (they price matched their online price). Just browsed out to bb.com and noticed that the new price is the same sale price as the store sale price of $99.99.

For once, I have good timing.

Any news on the second box set? Best place to purchase?

Any news on the second box set? Best place to purchase?


To the best of my knowledge, nothing yet... last I heard they were moving it to september...
Joe

Any news on the second box set?
http://www.elusivedisc.com/prodinfo.asp?number=VIRSAMIGS2N&utm_source=email&utm_medium=special

Do note that what elusive disc is offering for pre-order is just the 4 individual SACDs and not the box set which will presumably have a bonus CD like the first set, and the fancy box of course. They are listing an early September release date though which is encouraging...

Do note that what elusive disc is offering for pre-order is just the 4 individual SACDs and not the box set which will presumably have a bonus CD like the first set, and the fancy box of course. They are listing an early September release date though which is encouraging...
Are we certain that it will be a box-set?

Are we certain that it will be a box-set?

Yes. Every era will have a box set with a bonus SACD/CD and DVD-V with b-sides and extras.

Now if we could just guarantee they'll SOUND good. . . :rolleyes:
Josh

And just as confirmation that there will indeed be another box set. From Elusive Disc's email "newsletter" regarding the 4 new Genesis SACDs:

"Pre-Order all 4 Genesis titles for only $109.99! Regularly $120.00! This combo item not eligible for any further discount offers! This item is NOT the box set and does NOT include the 2 bonus discs!

SPECIAL NOTE: We will be carrying the both the Genesis Box Set with NTSC & PAL version DVDs entitled Genesis 1983-1998. We will have it up on our website for pre-order as soon as we get price verification. We will keep you updated! Stay tuned for further details!!!"

Any suggestions for the best deal on the new Genesis Box Set? Or does no one care given how "wonderful" the first box set sounded?

Elusive Disc just lowered the pre-order on the new Box to $160 (from $200). An extra $50 for the bonus disc & box isn't cheap though vs. just buying the four individual albums...

Still hoping HMV.co.jp carries it. So far, it's not listed there. I don't want to pay any more than I have to considering the sound quality of the last set. But, these are some of my all-time favorite albums so I already have "sucker" stamped on my forehead. ;) It's not helping that the Dollar is performing poorly against the Pound and Euro right now. Patience is a virtue I'm told. . .and the jury's still out on that one.

Best,
Josh

I think this is the box set from HMV Japan. It doesn't state boxset in the titles, but it does in the description and it appears to include a bonus disc. Also NTSC.

http://www.hmv.co.jp/product/detail/2601433

What do you think? I'm going to order it and see what happens.

I think this is the box set from HMV Japan.

Yes, it is. I went ahead and ordered it yesterday with several other import titles to get the 25% off (in fact, I spent my music budget for a little while ;)). If you look around on that site, there are lots of good prices to be had. I think it came in below $140 after the Japanese taxes were removed. Shipping is still reasonable. . .I know that if you order just three titles, the S&H will cost between $15-$20. Considering the packing quality and shipping speed last time, it is well worth the money.

Nevertheless, I still recommend, even after pre-ordering, that you check the site periodically to see if the price drops further or they add their double points promotion like they did last time.

In the meantime, I am hoping against hope Davis eased off the EQ and compression this time around, though I do know better. :rolleyes:

Josh :)

Thanks for the info. I went ahead and ordered and added a couple DVD-A titles I've been looking for as well. Last time things went exceptionally well. I was amazed that after receiving my tracking info, I received my items faster than I would have if I had them shipped via USPS from somewhere like Amazon. I will watch the price like you suggest. Thanks.

I was amazed that after receiving my tracking info, I received my items faster than I would have if I had them shipped via USPS from somewhere like Amazon.

LOL. . .I thought the exact same thing! I was certainly impressed with the speed, that's for sure.

From www.genesis-news.com. . .

http://www.genesis-news.com/genesis/images/sacds/box2-600.jpg

Amazon.com has this image (http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51lhRUNoBsL._SS500_.jpg) as well, so it looks like RED is the color! Wonder what the first era's color will be. . .green, yellow, etc.?

Also, HMV.co.jp just e-mailed me to announce the release date has been postponed to October 1.

This is the third time (that I know of) that the release date has been pushed back. First scheduled for release in June/July, then early September (3), then September 17, and now October 1.

Best,
Josh

One could only hope they are delaying these to improve the audio mixes!

I wonder if the producers took to heart the very negative feedback they've been getting.

We can only hope...so, I'm guessing the early stuff is looking to come out the first part of 2008?

Thankfully this is the era I'm least interested. I'm waiting on the Gabriel era discs.I suspect most of you too.

Thankfully this is the era I'm least interested. I'm waiting on the Gabriel era discs.I suspect most of you too.
I'll get Genesis, probably. Mama... Home by the Sea......... that's all (no, not THAT That's All) :)

Yeah actually that's not a bad album, and Invisible Touch had it's moments too.

I like this era, and think Calling All Stations is especially underrated. It would have been interesting if they'd polished and refined the style for a second album (with the new singer)...

Mitch

Oh my goodness!! I just listened to DUKE, what a disappointment!!! I know the CD was never that great a listen, however this is pretty horrid!! Did the mixer even listen to the surround mix? I mean it's so cluttered with poor sonics!!

I just listened to this one after the Elton John mixes and it's like Night and Day!!

Guess it's a good thing it's got a CD layer!

Thankfully this is the era I'm least interested. I'm waiting on the Gabriel era discs.I suspect most of you too.

Now why would you ever think that? ;) However, after reading all the critiques of the current crop of releases, I'm not certain any more what to expect. I, for one, am holding on to my Red Book remastered cds until I can hear what Mr. Davis has wrought. If we are truly lucky, Mr. Gabriel will take a personal interest in the quality of these much anticipated releases and do us proud one more time.

If we are truly lucky, Mr. Gabriel will take a personal interest in the quality of these much anticipated releases and do us proud one more time.

Peter is our only hope, I'm afraid. Mr. Davis has been bitten by the modern MP3 sound bug and doesn't appear to be looking back.

That said, I'm still buying the next set for the surround mixes and because I am a Genesis nut that loves IT and WCD to any desert island that I may end up on. :eek: :cool:

Josh

Guess it's a good thing it's got a CD layer!
That sux too.

I ordered "The Trick of The Tail" a few days ago before I've read all the bad press here.
I'm still waiting for it to arrive. I also have this on the remastered version as well, so I can compare it. I'll post my impressions.

The reason the Lamb was originally delayed was because Peter wanted changes made (of course I am basing this only on indirect reports). He has been a champion of surround sound and recording processes. I don't know how that translates into the possibility of better sounding SACDs on the 3rd boxset, but that is the hope I am clinging to right now. And the third boxset will be pushed back to coincide with the start of the 5 man reunion tour( did I just say that?).

The reason the Lamb was originally delayed was because Peter wanted changes made (of course I am basing this only on indirect reports). He has been a champion of surround sound and recording processes.

I heard this anecdote as well. I wonder if it would help if an online petition could be addressed to Peter Gabriel expressing fans fears of a repeat butchery to the greatly anticipated Genesis 3rd box set? For the price that we are asked to pay for these releases, we expect the highest audio quality and nothing less. I wonder if Mr. Gabriel is aware of the great discontent (especially from expert recording engineers) over the audio quality of the 1st box set?

The reason the Lamb was originally delayed was because Peter wanted changes made (of course I am basing this only on indirect reports). He has been a champion of surround sound and recording processes. I don't know how that translates into the possibility of better sounding SACDs on the 3rd boxset, but that is the hope I am clinging to right now. And the third boxset will be pushed back to coincide with the start of the 5 man reunion tour( did I just say that?).

If I recall correctly, PG was unhappy with the level of the surround channels (did not believe they were being used enough) rather than any problem with the sound quality. Since these early recordings were all digitized and remixed prior to the release of box set #1, I doubt minority criticisms for compression will result in any redo.

BTW, if the 3rd box set is contingent on a 5-man reunion then we will have a long wait ahead of us!

BTW, if the 3rd box set is contingent on a 5-man reunion then we will have a long wait ahead of us!
Pete said he would do it, but couldn't do it until...
2008.:eek:

Got Trick Of The Tail today.

Normally I don't like to jump on bandwagons, but I must agree with the general consensus here. This album sounds disappointing. Some songs are worst then others.
Ripples and Entangled are among the better ones, and Dance On a Volcano is clearly the worst. It's an aural assault in a very bad way. Especially the cymbal crashes which sounds more like laser blasts from Star Wars. Mad Man Moon had vocals that seemed come from a different take then what was on the album I knew. However vocals in many places are more intelligible, probably because it was brought to the foreground via the center channel. Robbery, Assault and Battery had some interesting choices by bringing the bass guitar in places out of the back ground, but in turn some of the guitar and keyboard solo got buried, and the drum was thundering, essentially making the supposed keyboard solo more like a drum solo.
Dynamic compression is evident through out, but it is even more obvious on Los Endos.
A mediocre effort overall, which is a real shame when there is such slim picking currently offered on the SACD format that comes from classic and progressive rock genres.

Got Trick Of The Tail today.

A mediocre effort overall, which is a real shame when there is such slim picking currently offered on the SACD format that comes from classic and progressive rock genres.
Just be glad you stopped at Trick. Many of us, drooling with anticipation, bought the whole kit-n-kaboodle and ended up with a box of discs that probably won't be listened to very often. :(

If I recall correctly, PG was unhappy with the level of the surround channels (did not believe they were being used enough) rather than any problem with the sound quality. Since these early recordings were all digitized and remixed prior to the release of box set #1, I doubt minority criticisms for compression will result in any redo.

BTW, if the 3rd box set is contingent on a 5-man reunion then we will have a long wait ahead of us!

That is what I heard,also, it was more about the surround mix. But, it is PG, and he works on his own time schedule. But I don't think it will be any difference in compression. Which is such a shame because I was so interested in hearing Nursery Crimes (which, imho, is the worst PG era sounding (EQ) album) in full glory, especially the tom rolls and cymbal crashes of The Return Of the Giant Hogweed.

As the last poster said, PG wasn't free until 2008. He had a warm-up tour, supposedly for WOMAD, but no NA tour to follow. Genesis ends their tour this fall. hmm. What to do in 2008? It's not like they have kids to look after anymore, and I think their 4th-wives can be on their own for a while.

Ripples and Entangled are among the better ones, and Dance On a Volcano is clearly the worst. It's an aural assault in a very bad way. Especially the cymbal crashes which sounds more like laser blasts from Star Wars.

The cymbals and the vocals are the most irritating features of these new SACDs for me. I can't get over how painfully unnatural the cymbals sound and since Collins uses them heavily, they are distracting and grating. I've heard comparisons to razors, saws, and now laser beams and all of them are accurate.

A lot of the vocals certainly sound clearer, but they are also crisper thanks to, what seems to me to be, obvious EQing that makes Collins sound completely unnatural. Oy, and that sssssssibilance!

The vocals are also LOUDER in many tracks, so much so that, at least in my setup, many of the vocals seem to sit on top of the music instead of within the music. I don't have this problem with my other 60 or so high-resolution discs. I would try playing with my center channel levels but it would get awfully tedious fast because the vocals are so inconsistent from one song to the next.

So, while many praise Collins' clearer and realistic voice, I question how much of is due to the increased resolution and how much is due to trickery. I do admit the increased resolution certainly makes it easier to understand what he is singing and there is better clarity between words.

None of my complaints are new, I have heard others voice similar frustrations. The above problems make it impossible to imagine the band is jamming in the room with you. . .a critical advantage of DVD-A/SACD, IMO. Those of you over at SH.tv who follow the threads regularly may have noted that a prominent and respected recording engineer there classified Mr. Davis' SACD work as "immature". This person has also, in the past, readily praised Davis' work on WCD and CAS. I am not in the field so I would never say that on my own in public, but I have to admit I've been thinking the same thing.

Sorry to be so negative and I'm very glad some around here are having more success, but I am still very disappointed at what has been my most anticipated music release ever. The next set will be even harder for me I think because, despite inducing cringe among the Gabrielites, WCD and IT are very special albums in my collection and among my all-time favorites.

Best,
Josh

Sorry to be so negative and I'm very glad some around here are having more success, but I am still very disappointed at what has been my most anticipated music release ever. The next set will be even harder for me I think because, despite inducing cringe among the Gabrielites, WCD and IT are very special albums in my collection and among my all-time favorites.

Best,
Josh

I agree, I have been waiting for this stuff for years and to have it butchered like this is depressing. I have to wonder, why did they even bother with the HiRez versions if they weren't going to use the format to it's full capabilities, instead, crippling it to get a more "commercialized" product. What were they thinking, that they were going to revive the SACD format by getting more folks to buy these releases? :rolleyes:

Also makes you wonder if that figured in Warner not releasing DVD-A versions of these new mixes here in the states, what's would be the point since they are so mediocre.

I agree, I have been waiting for this stuff for years and to have it butchered like this is depressing. I have to wonder, why did they even bother with the HiRez versions if they weren't going to use the format to it's full capabilities, instead, crippling it to get a more "commercialized" product. What were they thinking, that they were going to revive the SACD format by getting more folks to buy these releases? :rolleyes:

Also makes you wonder if that figured in Warner not releasing DVD-A versions of these new mixes here in the states, what's would be the point since they are so mediocre.

I'll be the first to admit I pushed the SACD version of this first box over the Rhino CD/DVD version HARD, especially at the Genesis forum. I sang the praises of SACD often not from a technical standpoint, but from my personal listening experiences. I also thought no one should let Rhino off that easy by not supporting DVD-A, so it was the principle of the matter too. It's funny, but I think a CD/DVD combo probably would have been just fine in the end, but my reasoning certainly wasn't why Rhino avoided DVD-A IMO. You may be right keenan, but I always assumed Warner chose not to consider DVD-A merely because of the cost.

To think that the band invested in the equipment necessary to do DSD too. Not a wise investment IMO. Ironically, Nick Davis was the one who pushed SACD to Tony Smith and Tony Banks in the first place. VERY ironic! Davis seemed to "get it" when it came to high-resolution, even opting for DTS 96/24 instead of standard DTS on the DVD. Why he didn't come full circle is beyond me. If there was pressure to "modernize" the music, it should have been left on the CD layer where people could still play the music in their cars and iPods. The SACD/DTS versions should have been treated with an audiophile mentality. I'm surprised Davis didn't do it this way.

I hope the live tour DVD fares better by Davis.

The really sad part is this is probably the last time this music will get a hires treatment. Possibly a HD-DVD/BD version might be in the future, but by that time HD optical media may have already run it's course and we'll instead be downloading our hires audio and video.

But even then, these re-mixes by Davis would have to be scrapped, so I think we're pretty much screwed, it's a damn shame...

The cymbals and the vocals are the most irritating features of these new SACDs for me. I can't get over how painfully unnatural the cymbals sound and since Collins uses them heavily, they are distracting and grating. I've heard comparisons to razors, saws, and now laser beams and all of them are accurate.

A lot of the vocals certainly sound clearer, but they are also crisper thanks to, what seems to me to be, obvious EQing that makes Collins sound completely unnatural. Oy, and that sssssssibilance!

The vocals are also LOUDER in many tracks, so much so that, at least in my setup, many of the vocals seem to sit on top of the music instead of within the music. I don't have this problem with my other 60 or so high-resolution discs. I would try playing with my center channel levels but it would get awfully tedious fast because the vocals are so inconsistent from one song to the next.

So, while many praise Collins' clearer and realistic voice, I question how much of is due to the increased resolution and how much is due to trickery. I do admit the increased resolution certainly makes it easier to understand what he is singing and there is better clarity between words.

None of my complaints are new, I have heard others voice similar frustrations. The above problems make it impossible to imagine the band is jamming in the room with you. . .a critical advantage of DVD-A/SACD, IMO. Those of you over at SH.tv who follow the threads regularly may have noted that a prominent and respected recording engineer there classified Mr. Davis' SACD work as "immature". This person has also, in the past, readily praised Davis' work on WCD and CAS. I am not in the field so I would never say that on my own in public, but I have to admit I've been thinking the same thing.

Sorry to be so negative and I'm very glad some around here are having more success, but I am still very disappointed at what has been my most anticipated music release ever. The next set will be even harder for me I think because, despite inducing cringe among the Gabrielites, WCD and IT are very special albums in my collection and among my all-time favorites.

Best,
Josh

Oh there is no doubt that mixing and EQ ing is responsible for most of the vocals being so different from the original sound. Those techniques are not "evil" but should had been used with care, not trying to create a whole new album, which what we have essentialy here. SACD is a fine format in the hands of real experts. I don't know who is this Nick Davis, but after this butchery I'm not sure I would care to know anyway.

For me the Genesis SACDs had the potential to be amongst my very favourite SACDs.

I love the music, and I am sure that the multi-track master tapes contain gold.

I am now listening to Abacab for the second time. All I can hear is lost opportunity. It is so compressed that instead of listening and enjoying, I am writing this post.

I am listening to the SACD 5.1 version.

And PLEASE if you comment on these recordings, it is very releveant to mention what you are commenting on. Is it the:
SACD 2 channel
SACD 5.1
DTS 5.1, or
CD

I am feeling that Nick Davis could have given us the ultimate in fine dinning. And instead he took the perfect food, and then added lots of salt on top and then some mustard.

Now some people love lots of salt and mustard on there food. Lucky them.

But for those who could, if we were given the opportunity, really appreciate fine food (or a good recording), we will now almost certainly never get the opportunity. Listening to this SACD just plain hurts with the bad compression and mainly the lost opportunity.

It would have been so easy for Nick Davis (cursed be thy name) to mix the CD in the "modern sound", yet give us audiophiles what we want for the SACD (2.0 and 5.1). To create a SACD of compressed rubbish is just plain evil.

Sorry for this rant. But the bad sound is still upsetting me. These SACDs should sound very good! And as it is almost certain that the Peter Gabriel box will sound as bad, I am upset about this lost opportunity as well.

The SACD is almost finished. Maybe I will feel better if I put on something which is not compressed rubbish. Phil is telling me "to put another record on". Something that Nick Davis has nothing to do with, because then, as Genesis says "Because you know youl'd like it".

Cheers,
Michael

All I can hear is lost opportunity.

I am feeling that Nick Davis could have given us the ultimate in fine dinning. And instead he took the perfect food, and then added lots of salt on top and then some mustard.
Yep, he f##cked up a really good steak.

Honestly, the more I think about it, it's almost unfathomable how badly they turned out. I got an expensive Genesis paper-weight out of the deal. :(

Nick Davis deserves 20 lashes with a wet noodle for messing these recordings up imho.

Nick Davis deserves 20 lashes with a wet noodle for messing these recordings up imho.

He should be forced to listen to these discs 24/7 until he becomes a blathering idiot and can't damage anymore music in the future.

Just out of curiosity--are these way worse than the "Video Collection" (many with the same surround mixes--though not all)? I haven't taken the plunge yet so the only thing I have to compare with is the Video DVD (and the Platinum Collection re-mixes). Are these much different/worse?

And PLEASE if you comment on these recordings, it is very releveant to mention what you are commenting on. Is it the:
SACD 2 channel
SACD 5.1
DTS 5.1, or
CD

All my comments were regarding the SACD 5.1 mixes/encode.

The Hun said that Ripples on Trick of a Tail was amongst the better tracks.

Because much of this track is quiet, this track suffers much less from loudest parts of the music being very over compressed (as is the case of most of Dance).

But what really annoys me with Ripples is that everytime it should increase in volume, it does not. Two voices is at the same volume as one voice. The climax chorus is almost the same volume as the opening. This type of compression (making the volume always about the same) makes me dislike Ripples as much as I dislike Dance.

Cheers,
Michael

You know, I wonder if they even give a $hit about all the negative feedback they've gotten over these discs? I mean, they've made their money off us on the discs and are about to make even more with this cheesy "reunion" tour. And to think, I may actually pay top dollar for some good seats. :o :rolleyes:

As the last poster said, PG wasn't free until 2008. He had a warm-up tour, supposedly for WOMAD, but no NA tour to follow. Genesis ends their tour this fall. hmm. What to do in 2008? It's not like they have kids to look after anymore, and I think their 4th-wives can be on their own for a while.

I heard somewhat unofficially that the main reason the current Genesis tour is the 3-man version is entirely due to money. Not because of the artists, but the people funding the whole thing that want to see returns. A cost/return analysis showed that less money would be made with the Gabriel-led band versus the B-R-C version.

I dearly hope the 5.1 remasters of the old albums will be good; though I am now prepared for disappointment after reading this thread. Foxtrot is my favorite album--the only one to come close is Genesis-Live due to fantastic versions of Get'em out by Friday and Hogweed (I thing the Nursery Cryme version of Hogweed sucks, frankly, but is excellent on the live album).

Foxtrot was not the best recording sonically, but I was hoping to hear miracles in the latest remixes. Keeping my fingers crossed, but possibly in vain.

Anyone longing for the old Genesis shows (live) should check out the Musical Box if they come to your area. They meticulously reproduce the old Genesis shows.

My understanding of the "funding" for the shows, though, is that, unlike The Police reunion tour, there is no corporate sponsor. Therefore, the shows have to finance themselves. While this will still leave a hefty amount of coin the pockets of all involved, it does (slightly) mitigate the steep ticket prices as a much greater portion of those sales go directly to touring costs. Besides, they're not a charity organization.

But, to get back to my question above, has anyone compared the new remix/remasters with the Platinum Collection CD and/or the recent Video Show DVD releases?

You know, I wonder if they even give a $hit about all the negative feedback they've gotten over these discs?

My concern is that I'm not sure there has been much negative feedback. I mean, among the audiophiles the reviews are mostly awful, but the people that "matter", the diehard fans who, frankly, wouldn't know the difference between SACD and an MP3 LOVE these discs and rave about them. Look at the Amazon sites, Genesis-music.com, reviews at fan sites like genesis-news.com, etc. They are all entranced by the illusion that everything sounds so much better than before. When people dare criticize they jump all over them and whine and moan about all the "moaning" coming from people who "have obvious problems with their system setup" and "are more concerned about the sound quality than the music" (I especially like that one, oh the irony!).

Nick Davis was too busy commenting at the genesis-music forum that there were a lot of "stupid people" at SH.tv, for example, who "didn't know what they were talking about" to be concerned about a serious discussion regarding his detrimental decisions. Part of me believes that Nick Davis was under pressure from management, Tony Banks, and the record label to remix the music with this modern sound and he is fully aware that these new releases fail to live up to high-resolution standards. In other words, maybe he knows better but was hired to do a certain job and cannot legitimately bash his own work especially since he is really a full-time member of the Genesis "team" if you will.

Or, the not-so-nice way to look at it is that he has no clue. :rolleyes:

I am still seriously considering sending a couple of demo SACDs to Tony Smith (Genesis management) in care of Nick Davis and Tony Banks. I just don't believe they've heard a reference quality SACD. At least it will help sell a couple more SACDs! :D

Thank goodness I didn't jump on the box set right away. Man, was I ever disappointed with the Moody Blues 'Deram" (Decca Music Group, Ltd) versions.
Ughh. Beautiful music turned into horrid sound. Hmm, makes me wonder if Nick had anything to do with them.

Anyway, now listening to the Doors 'Perception' set on DVD-A. Despite some moderately negative feedback, IMHO, I think it sounds quite good.

Added bonuses are the videos, though not multi, still a pretty cool add on.:D

Thank goodness I didn't jump on the box set right away. Man, was I ever disappointed with the Moody Blues 'Deram" (Decca Music Group, Ltd) versions.
Ughh. Beautiful music turned into horrid sound. Hmm, makes me wonder if Nick had anything to do with them.
Ummmmmmm..........................

I'm gonna have to differ with you here, as I'm sure many others will, too. The Moody Blues discs are great, especially for such old recordings. Not sure what you're listening to. They were very well done. Maybe your system does SACD poorly. Other than complaints about ISOTLC not being available in multichannel, you may be the first person I've seen really complain about their sound.

After all the negative reviews here I am glad I waited until the remasters came out for BMG music service - paid under $9 for each CD+DVD combo with their current buy one get four free deal going on.

After all the negative reviews here I am glad I waited until the remasters came out for BMG music service - paid under $9 for each CD+DVD combo with their current buy one get four free deal going on.

Are these the Hi rez MC versions?

The Hun said that Ripples on Trick of a Tail was amongst the better tracks.

Because much of this track is quiet, this track suffers much less from loudest parts of the music being very over compressed (as is the case of most of Dance).

But what really annoys me with Ripples is that everytime it should increase in volume, it does not. Two voices is at the same volume as one voice. The climax chorus is almost the same volume as the opening. This type of compression (making the volume always about the same) makes me dislike Ripples as much as I dislike Dance.

Cheers,
Michael

Well those were my first impressions, quiet frankly I'm not too keen to repeat to listen indepth again this album, as it left a bitter taste in my mouth.

Are these the Hi rez MC versions?

No, these just are the CD/DVD versions. The DVD does contain DD and DTS 96/24 but there is no SACD. Frankly, these CD/DVD versions will work just fine (especially for the price) since you aren't gaining very much from the SACD in this particular case (I can't believe I just said that. . .:(). That is, unless you want the bonus disc of extra tracks, in which case you'll have to buy the box set.

Best,
Josh

No, these just are the CD/DVD versions. The DVD does contain DD and DTS 96/24 but there is no SACD. Frankly, these CD/DVD versions will work just fine (especially for the price) since you aren't gaining very much from the SACD in this particular case (I can't believe I just said that. . .:(). That is, unless you want the bonus disc of extra tracks, in which case you'll have to buy the box set.

Best,
Josh

That was exactly my reasoning (I will have to make do without paperlate). But, I should point out that in some cases DTS 96/24 releases can rival some of the best SACDs out there. I believe mastering quality makes the biggest difference in audio quality. Being DTS I can get more accurate bass management and can use tone controls to correct for any faults in the recording being a bit bright etc. Someday i will find a receiver that can process/post proces SACD and DVD-A in high rez PCM. All receivers that I know of stop at 96khz.

Iv got clean vinyl copies of all their albums, so I guess those will have to do, unless I can find a really good price on the box sets.

Genesis-news.com now has the promotional photo of the box set innards:

http://www.genesis-news.com/02start/startsite/box2-open.jpg

:D
Josh

You guys are sure quick to jump down Nick Davis's throat, when really you should be kicking the mastering engineer, Tony Cousins in the butt.

Quote regarding Wind & Wuthering

Reviewer: Hugh Padgham
This fine album ushered in a new scaled down less-is-more approach for Genesis in terms of the instrumental arrangements, and was thoughtfully produced by Hugh Padgham to sound dynamic and punchy, maintaining lots of space and air in the mix. This fresh new sound was reflected in the cover art also, a minimalist abstract painting.

How things have changed with the new mix/master though.

Mastering engineer Tony Cousins has taken Nick Davis's new mix and just applied maximum compression and limiting, ensuring that the peaks are flattened and the quiet parts brought up to virtually meet those peaks. The recording now has a tiny dynamic range and makes audiophile stereo equipment sound like a cheap, tinny midi system!

The surround mix may be better in this regard; I don't know as I have not heard it yet.

As for the new stereo mix - leave it alone and get the brilliant Definitive Remaster version while you still can.

Maybe in 10 years time Davis's mix too will be remastered.

On the Steve Hoffman forums some of those who know much more than me a fairly certain that most of the compression was done in the new mixes, ie done by Nick Davis.

From memory, Nick has been quoted as saying that only about 3db of compression was used at the remastering stage.

Never mind the butchery by Nick Davis, The Musical Box has a brand new North American tour featuring the Peter Gabriel-era Genesis (Foxtrot & SEBTP). Check out http://www.themusicalbox.net/ for tour details. Unfortunately, for a West-coaster, the current schedule only has Eastern states, but with any luck they will make it here. For those who don't know about TMB, they are the best Genesis re-enactment out there, with original set designs and note-perfect renditions of the classic Genesis. They have been praised by PG (among others), and their great success in recent touring may have inspired the accountants for undertaking the current Genesis tour. I was fortunate enough to see TLLDOB re-enactment a couple of years ago, and it was brilliant!

Never mind the butchery by Nick Davis, The Musical Box has a brand new North American tour featuring the Peter Gabriel-era Genesis (Foxtrot & SEBTP). Check out http://www.themusicalbox.net/ for tour details. Unfortunately, for a West-coaster, the current schedule only has Eastern states, but with any luck they will make it here. For those who don't know about TMB, they are the best Genesis re-enactment out there, with original set designs and note-perfect renditions of the classic Genesis. They have been praised by PG (among others), and their great success in recent touring may have inspired the accountants for undertaking the current Genesis tour. I was fortunate enough to see TLLDOB re-enactment a couple of years ago, and it was brilliant!

That looks pretty cool, I do hope they come out west as well. I'll never forget seeing "The Black Show" at the Santa Monica Civic back in the early '70's. Capacity of the Civic was around 2500 I think and I recall sitting somewhere center and about 15-20 rows back...great show.

Musical Box is excellent.. Went to San Francisco to see them for 'The Lamb' show. I would no doubt see them again. Sad thing is Martin Levec (Sp?) won't be the drummer for them as he is taking his 'Turn it on Again' band on the road I believe. Not sure who the replacement drummer is.


Mike

It's Martin Levesque. I've never been a big fan of "tribute bands" as a rule, so I haven't seen them (even though they're from my backyard, essentially) but seeing as how the band, including Gabriel, have endorsed them, I'll probably check them out next spring (they're due back in their hometown next May).

It's Martin Levesque. I've never been a big fan of "tribute bands" as a rule, so I haven't seen them (even though they're from my backyard, essentially) but seeing as how the band, including Gabriel, have endorsed them, I'll probably check them out next spring (they're due back in their hometown next May).

I just looked in my program from 'The Lamb' show that I got in SF, CA. It is Martin Levac. Nevertheless, my understanding is is that he will not be with them. Perhaps the Martin you are speaking of is there new drummer??
Anyway, well worth the price of the ticket. As a rule, I would never go see a tribute band, but I couldn't ignore the reviews that these guys got, so the exception was made. No regrets, they were outstanding.

Mike

You are probably correct then. It's just that "Levec" is the phonetic spelling for "Levesque" and your phonetic spelling is a common one for non-francophones when dealing with the name "Levesque", so I simply assumed. (you know what they say about that ;) )

In any event, I will try to grab some tickets to see them (they come to Montreal pretty regularly, so if not this time, then another one).

Just received the 83-98 box from HMV Japan. After a quick listen, I'm afraid it suffers from the same treatment as the first set. I haven't listened to the surround mixes yet but the CD mixes left me with a headache. I didn't have any of these discs on CD previous to this (can you say 80s audio tape) for comparison. I was able to compare the bonus songs to the versions on Archive 2. I think the Archive 2 versions sound better at least to my ear. Oh well wish I wasn't such a completionist because then I wouldn't even bother with the last set.

......................completionist ...........
:D

Ah. So, that's what we're called. Great tag.

So is this new batch of SACDs still on course ? CD Universe tells me my order is on back order.

So is this new batch of SACDs still on course ? CD Universe tells me my order is on back order.

Was released in Japan on Oct. 1 that is where I got mine from. Don't know about other countries. Where does CD Universe import them from? Are they PAL (EU) or NTSC (Japan)?

So far CD Universe have been SACD with a NTSC DVD. By the way are yours on the way or in hand ?

Mine are in hand. Read my post above.

I just got confirmation today that mine have shipped. Ordered them from Amazon UK.

Just received the 83-98 box from HMV Japan. After a quick listen, I'm afraid it suffers from the same treatment as the first set. I haven't listened to the surround mixes yet but the CD mixes left me with a headache. I didn't have any of these discs on CD previous to this (can you say 80s audio tape) for comparison. I was able to compare the bonus songs to the versions on Archive 2. I think the Archive 2 versions sound better at least to my ear. Oh well wish I wasn't such a completionist because then I wouldn't even bother with the last set.

Thanks for the review, depressing as it is, I still can't believe they did this to this music...

Thank goodness I didn't jump on the box set right away. Man, was I ever disappointed with the Moody Blues 'Deram" (Decca Music Group, Ltd) versions.
Ughh. Beautiful music turned into horrid sound. Hmm, makes me wonder if Nick had anything to do with them.

Anyway, now listening to the Doors 'Perception' set on DVD-A. Despite some moderately negative feedback, IMHO, I think it sounds quite good.

Added bonuses are the videos, though not multi, still a pretty cool add on.:D

I am still smarting from the Moodies releases also. EGBDF is the best of this set. My DTS versions of Seventh Sojourn and Future Passed will suffice quite nicely for now. I will probably get the stereo only ISOTLC when I except the fact that I am a hopeless completionist.

I didn't jump on these Genesis releases for the same reasons. Its a crying shame coz they potentially could have been wildly dynamic and punchy considering the way the redbook CD's sound. I think I will push the button on the Doors set though as I believe while they are a bit quirky, eg: Centre Ch vocals only,its sounds like they are not overly compressed and brickwalled. Also its very hard to find LA Women on its own any more. Maybe I have been spoilt by the Talking Heads and Depeche Mode sets.


Bring on all the Porcupine Tree albums in MLP 5.1 now.

I am still smarting from the Moodies releases also.
I think the Moodies hirez discs sound great. They're head-and-shoulders above these Genesis releases. I actually didn't buy EGBDF or 7thS when they came out later, though. Probably should....................... I'm a hopeless completionist, too!

I think the Moodies hirez discs sound great. They're head-and-shoulders above these Genesis releases. I actually didn't buy EGBDF or 7thS when they came out later, though. Probably should....................... I'm a hopeless completionist, too!

Yeah the Moodies are nice to have and are the best sounding effort so far but if DTS could sound so good why can't SACD??. The SACD's sound just a bit thin in comparison. I can hear more detail most times in the Hi Rez but overall I find the DTS efforts more listenable. More warmth. I just hope this is not some extra filtering process that DTS employ to trick the ear. I like to hear things kept simple from the recording to the home listener a la AIX stuff so I would be dissapointed if that was the case.

Yeah the Moodies are nice to have and are the best sounding effort so far but if DTS could sound so good why can't SACD??. The SACD's sound just a bit thin in comparison. I can hear more detail most times in the Hi Rez but overall I find the DTS efforts more listenable. More warmth. I just hope this is not some extra filtering process that DTS employ to trick the ear. I like to hear things kept simple from the recording to the home listener a la AIX stuff so I would be dissapointed if that was the case.

Are you making a direct comparison or a generalization between DTS and SACD?

Some DTS discs sound great, however the same release on both formats should always sound better on SACD.

Are your players connected the same on both formats?

Are you making a direct comparison or a generalization between DTS and SACD?
I am basing my listening on The DTS Moodies DOFP, SS compared to the SACD Moodies EGBDF, QOB, TOCCC, OTTOAD, only. So not a direct comparison but these four SACD's sound slightly enemic. BTW All these titles lack a centre ch except OTTOAD and think there is some sort of limiting going on at a round 80HZ on all of them. To me DOFP and SS on DTS sound warm and immersive. Do the SACD versions sound warmer?. I can hear the Hi Rez doing its work on the SACD,s but I'm not sure all the source material can stand the extra scrutiny. Some of the guitars and vocals from the sides sound brittle, distorted and harsh. But this stuff is old so its understandable. Are these the same mixes?. I don't think Justin had any input with the DTS mixs. His are from the Quad Masters I think hence the mainly 4.1/2 output. Disclaimer: I am trying to convince myself I don't need the Hi Rez updates.
Some DTS discs sound great, however the same release on both formats should always sound better on SACD.
Agreed, but in this case only I probably won't make that conclusion. But I will be interested in any feedback that might open my wallet yet again.
Are your players connected the same on both formats?
Yeah. I just use my Marantz Uni player switched thru the receiver ie: from 6.1 analog for SACD thru to Toslink for DTS or DTS ES.

Yeah. I just use my Marantz Uni player switched thru the receiver ie: from 6.1 analog for SACD thru to Toslink for DTS or DTS ES.

Are you doing your BM in the reciever for both sources? If so there is an extra A/D conversion that could color the sound a bit?
If you are using pass-through in the reciever then the BM in the Uni player may make a difference?

In my setup the processor digitizes the 5.1 analog input and then does BM...

Yeah. I just use my Marantz Uni player switched thru the receiver ie: from 6.1 analog for SACD thru to Toslink for DTS or DTS ES.
Are you doing your BM in the reciever for both sources? If so there is an extra A/D conversion that could color the sound a bit?
If you are using pass-through in the reciever then the BM in the Uni player may make a difference?

In my setup the processor digitizes the 5.1 analog input and then does BM...
Most receivers won't bass manage their multichannel analog inputs. Some will. If a receiver IS capable of BMing its multichannel analog inputs, then yes, it has to convert it back to digital first.

Most receivers won't bass manage their multichannel analog inputs. Some will. If a receiver IS capable of BMing its multichannel analog inputs, then yes, it has to convert it back to digital first.
This is OT good and proper but it brings up some issues that have troubled me for a while now so bare with me. My Receiver can adjust levels to the 5.1 analog inputs supplied from the player. I like to keep all settings at the Rec at 0db except for the SW which after much testing I set to +7db (range is -15db to +10db). If I leave the SW at 0db along with the other channels the bass just about disappears on these Moodies SACD's discs especially and then they really do sound anemic. The player sets my distance, delay and BM/speaker size, which I have set to all small, SW set to on, giving everything under around 100Hz to the SW. I would prefer to leave the SW at 0db because of the analog/digital conversion thing but because of these SACD's and few others I really need to up the level or I get very little output to my SW and it goes to sleep/standby unless I crank the volume up to levels -18db or more and then I'II get the TRG police on my door again. Now when playing the DTS discs it obviously goes out from the player as decoded DTS via Digital toslink/coax. Question: Is there a possibility that you get 2 x DTS decoding ie; firstly the player then the receiver?. The Rec now deals with this independent of the players settings recognizing the DTS signal and then sending it thru to another user adjustable process dedicated for DTS/Dolby material. The settings here are different from the players analog output. Large for Fronts the rest Small, SW is set to On . SW set to 0db. There is now ample SW output even at 0db and the fronts set to large. If I play a DTS disc thru the 5.1 analog outs as opposed to the toslink the sound loses some bass and presence/volume. Whats happening here?. Is the DTS decoding done at the player then sending it to the Rec via the 5.1 analogs? or is there no DTS decoding at all?. Always wonder about this . Anyway the Moodies SACD's IMHO are only 80% of what they could have been, and to get back OT, the Genesis sets sounds like they only achieved about 60% of their potential because they were Maximised 100%.

In my setup the processor digitizes the 5.1 analog input and then does BM...

What is this processor?. The player, The receiver or some other outboard device.

This is OT good and proper but it brings up some issues that have troubled me for a while now so bare with me. My Receiver can adjust levels to the 5.1 analog inputs supplied from the player. I like to keep all settings at the Rec at 0db except for the SW which after much testing I set to +7db (range is -15db to +10db). If I leave the SW at 0db along with the other channels the bass just about disappears on these Moodies SACD's discs especially and then they really do sound anemic. The player sets my distance, delay and BM/speaker size, which I have set to all small, SW set to on, giving everything under around 100Hz to the SW. I would prefer to leave the SW at 0db because of the analog/digital conversion thing but because of these SACD's and few others I really need to up the level or I get very little output to my SW and it goes to sleep/standby unless I crank the volume up to levels -18db or more and then I'II get the TRG police on my door again.
Most receivers DO allow adjustment of the multichannel analog input's level trims. This does not require an A/D and D/A conversion. The level trim simply adjusts the level of the processors (receiver or pre-amp/processor) multichannel analog inputs. I prefer to adjust my multichannel analog connection's level trims at the receiver, as well. I leave all my player's level trim settings at "0dB". And just like you, my player's distance (time management) and bass-management settings are applied in the player, in the digital domain, prior to that info being converted in the player to an analog signal that is output via the player's multichannel analog outputs.

The need to turn up the subwoofer level for SACDs is very common. This is the "LFE Bug". I would strongly suggest you read THIS (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=748147) post and thread for info regarding this commonly encountered nuisance. The question of the bass level being too low with SACDs is directly addressed within the initial post of that thread.

Some players have a setting which allows the application of a 10dB boost to their subwoofer output. Some receiver's have the ability to adjust the level of their subwoofer input by either a 10dB boost, or in increments of 5dB, 10dB, and 15dB. If neither your player nor receiver has this adjustment, then you are left with only the individual SW channel level trims for adjusting it.



Now when playing the DTS discs it obviously goes out from the player as decoded DTS via Digital toslink/coax.
No, with a digital connection, the info goes out from the player as a digital bitstream. It is decoded and processed by the receiver and the receiver's settings (and only the receiver's settings) are applied in the digital domain prior to the info being converted to an analog signal for output via the speakers. None of the players settings are applied to that which leaves it via its digital outputs. The player's settings are ONLY applied, in the digital domain, to that which is eventually output via its multichannel analog outputs. The receiver's settings (and only the receiver's settings) are applied, in the digital domain, to that which enters it as a digital bitstream via a digital connection.


Question: Is there a possibility that you get 2 x DTS decoding ie; firstly the player then the receiver?. The Rec now deals with this independent of the players settings recognizing the DTS signal and then sending it thru to another user adjustable process dedicated for DTS/Dolby material.
As I indicated above, if utilizing a digital connection, the player sends an undecoded and unprocessed digital bitstream to the receiver for decoding and processing, where ONLY the receiver's settings are applied, in the digital domain, prior to the single D/A conversion that is necessary for output via the speakers.



The settings here are different from the players analog output. Large for Fronts the rest Small, SW is set to On . SW set to 0db.
Yes, you can have a different set of settings in the player for that which exits it via its multichannel analog outputs and in the receiver for that which enters it via a digital input.



There is now ample SW output even at 0db and the fronts set to large. If I play a DTS disc thru the 5.1 analog outs as opposed to the toslink the sound loses some bass and presence/volume. Whats happening here?
Well, you said you have different settings within the player and receiver.



Is the DTS decoding done at the player then sending it to the Rec via the 5.1 analogs? or is there no DTS decoding at all? Always wonder about this.
If the player's analog outputs are being used, no matter the source material (DD, DTS, SACD, DVD-A, or CD), the player is doing the decoding and processing and the players settings are applied, in the digital domain, prior to the D/A conversion that is necessary before the player can output an analog signal via its multichannel analog outputs. If a digital connection is being utilized (for DD, DTS, and CD), then the receiver is doing the decoding and processing and ONLY the receiver's settings are being applied, in the digital domain, prior to the D/A conversion that is necessary for output via the speakers.

In my setup the processor digitizes the 5.1 analog input and then does BM...
What is this processor?. The player, The receiver or some other outboard device.
The processor in this case is whatever his player's 6-channel analog outputs are plugged into. Something with multichannel analog inputs; either a receiver or a pre-amp/processor. Bass-management (as we're discussing it) occurs in the digital domain, so anything that's input into a processor that IS capable of bass-managing its multichannel analog inputs must first be converted from an analog signal to a digital signal before it can be bass-managed. Then, of course, after bass-management, it must be converted back to an analog signal before it is output via the speakers. This incurs an extra A/D and D/A conversion, the detriment of which is arguable.

Normally, with a player that is connected via it's 6-channel analog outputs, the player first decodes, processes, and lastly, converts the digital info into a 6-channel analog signal. Then, if no bass-management of the processor's (a receiver or pre-amp/processor) multichannel analog inputs is possible (or needed), the processor will simply pass this analog info through its amplifiers and out through the speaker outputs. So, only a single D/A conversion in the player is necessary.

With a player that is connected via a digital connection, the single D/A conversion to analog occurs in the processor (receiver or pre-amp processor) after the digital info is first decoded and processed by the processor (receiver or pre-amp/processor).

Thanks for that very detailed reply and that link to the LFE bug. They are mainly concerned with the LFE loss over HDMI but it explains things nicely generally as well. I can now have piece of mind knowing I am not getting an extra A/D conversion going on by just "trimming" these PPCM levels at the receiver or the player. Upgrading to HDMI looks like a major head spin so I will gladly delay this until either my player or receiver craps out or there is some sort of standard agreed upon with HDMI 1.3.

Thanks again
Steve

.................and that link to the LFE bug. They are mainly concerned with the LFE loss over HDMI.....................
No, they aren't.

Let me qualify my statement in that I grew up with Genesis in the 80s, so I'm no band expert. But Invisible Touch has sentimental value for me. I just got the SACD today and thoroughly enjoyed it. It's definitely less compressed dynamically and a lot more detailed than the original '86 release.

I just received the 4 import SACD/DVD discs from set #2 (Mama, Invisible Touch, We can't dance, Calling all stations) from MusicDirect.

First, some background:
- I'm a huge genesis fan, ever since I first heard Trick of the Tail in 1976
- I have purchased every variation of the Genesis catalog over the years (even the laserdiscs of videos and concerts ;) )
- I play all this back on a very high-end system in a dedicated custom built listening room (http://www.mindspring.com/~jonfoulkes/Home_Theater/HomeTheater.htm).
- This system resolves minute details in the equipment and sources, with my customized Martin Logan electrostatic speakers being a big part of it

I was disappointed by the first wave of discs in set #1, which while the recordings were much clearer than other editions, the mix was too bright and overly compressed.

The set #2 is more of the same, although less contrast to the originals, as this is more recent material. However, still find the sound compressed. Songs like Dreaming while you sleep (we can’t dance), don’t have the same dynamic range as the originals. Also, agree with previous posts about the vocal mix being to ‘forward’.
Songs like Hold on my Heart (we can’t dance) which is a soft ballad, lacks the dynamic range one would expect from a SACD mix.
The balance of bass to treble is very skewed towards the highs. Makes me wonder what speakers they mixed these on, must have horrible highs if they thought this was what sounded good.

Since I am such a Genesis fan, and happen to have incredibly flexible speaker processing available to me, I went ahead and created a custom preset in my DBX DriveRacks for the Genesis collection that EQ’s down the highs and boost the bass a bit. Too bad I can’t uncompress.
But at least this makes the listening sessions more bearable.

I also received Porcupine Tree’s ‘Fear of a Blank Planet’ DVD-A last week and man, no comparing how good that sounds to even these recent vintage Genesis recordings. Steve Wilson of PT shure knows how to mix for 5.1 high rez. Nick should listen to that and try and emulate.

Bottom line, still buying all these, but ever so disappointed at the missed opportunity here.

PS- A note to those who complain of excessive sibilance on these recordings, it’s not in the mix, it’s probably your speakers not liking the excessive amounts of highs. On my electrostats they are piercing laser-like in quality, but clean. Some EQ tames it somewhat.

As for the new stereo mix - leave it alone and get the brilliant Definitive Remaster version while you still can.



Where is the remastered version available? There seem to be two different remasters released within a month of each other. Is there a difference between these two? Thanks for your help.

Just a reminder that the boxset #2 DVD/CD version is out in stores on Tuesday. Best Buy has a great price advertised, planning to pick mine up this week.

Thanks for that very detailed reply and that link to the LFE bug. They are mainly concerned with the LFE loss over HDMI but it explains things nicely generally as well. I can now have piece of mind knowing I am not getting an extra A/D conversion going on by just "trimming" these PPCM levels at the receiver or the player. Upgrading to HDMI looks like a major head spin so I will gladly delay this until either my player or receiver craps out or there is some sort of standard agreed upon with HDMI 1.3.

Thanks again
Steve

It's not an "LFE bug" per se, it is how it supposed to work especially with analog connections, which could create otherwise a voltage overload.
The fact that this still happened with HDMI was more of a oversight by MFRs then anything else.

As for the new stereo mix - leave it alone and get the brilliant Definitive Remaster version while you still can.


I answered my own question. I found on Tower.com the remastered CD versions of Lamb Lies down on Broadway" and "Selling England by the Pound."
IMHO, these CDs are not compressed at all and sound incredibly good. When played in 7.1 through Dolby Music processing they sound as good as most surround sound discs!

Can someone confirm or deny whether the DVD's DTS track is actually 96/24?

I've got the DVD and it states on the packaging that the DTS track is 96/24, but both my amp and DVD player tell me otherwise. I'm just wondering whether it's a misprint or a botched DVD production job.

Apart from that it's a great concert video! Cheers to everyone.

Can someone confirm or deny whether the DVD's DTS track is actually 96/24?

I've got the DVD and it states on the packaging that the DTS track is 96/24, but both my amp and DVD player tell me otherwise.
My receiver says "DTS 96/24" with them.

My receiver says "DTS 96/24" with them.

I meant their new 'When in Rome' DVD not their CD/DVDa discs. BTW just finished watching it and (DTS track mixup aside) it's a terrific concert!

Was a great show (saw it in Montreal last year). I was hoping for a Blu-ray release but it appears they've shelved that idea for now. I'll probably pick it up in SD but this will be an easy "double-dip" for me when the eventual Blu-ray comes out.

Does anyone have any news on when the 1970-74 box set is expected to be released?

September 2008 was the most recent date I saw on some of the Genesis fora. But I'm not holding my breath.

Does anyone have any news on when the 1970-74 box set is expected to be released?

September 2008 is the current release date, but it has already been delayed a number of times so 'fingers crossed'!

I certainly hope this final set of releases have not been 'modernized' with too much compression. While I find the prior releases to have very good sound quality (I listen to the mch hirez version only), they certainly could have been better with a bit less compression.

I've been patiently waiting for these... even intellectually knowing that there was next to no difference between the SACD version and the hi rez DVD for the third set, consisting of one album I'd listen to regularly, one that's good, one that's crap but hold some interest, and one that just plain bites...

So, I figured I paid 1/2 the total price to own Mama in hi-res surround...:)

Lamb would indeed be lovely, let alone the earlier discs. I'd love it if the site would officially give us a real, honest to gosh release date...

Yes, I'm with you.

These re-releases have given me a chance to listen again to many albums I have not heard in a while. The first box set (Trick thru ABACAB) is really good - some of my favorite albums. The second box set (Shapes thru CAS) is not my favorite period - there are some good songs, but also a lot of commercial stuff that i do not really like. This last, impending set is probably my favorite period and as the oldest albums, at least holds out hope for the most dramatic improvement in sound quality.

My sense from the discussions on the Genesis forum is that September is a pretty firm date at this point.

My sense from the discussions on the Genesis forum is that September is a pretty firm date at this point.

That's great, I can wait till then, but not much longer ;) I hope Nick D's remaster of SEBTP is a winner, not to mention Lamb, Foxtrot....ok ALL of the early recordings :D

Unlike most, I prefer to listen to the box sets in two channel only. The DTS 5.1 (96/24) is excellent, but the SACD stereo mixes sound superb on my kit. I just haven't transitioned over to multichannel audio, not sure if I ever will.

freakishly, I've only ever listened to redbook>mp3 of the stereo mixes, and m/ch for the hi-rez. As I'm spending more time fighting to get a decent 2ch beaten out of my m/ch system, I'll certainly give them a listen... I mean, what the hell, right? :)

Was testing with 2ch of PG's UP... Man, oh man I wish he'd have done his own catalogue this way... Hell, let's dream he's nerdy enough to do what Neil Young's doing on BD!

Hell, let's dream he's nerdy enough to do what Neil Young's doing on BD!

I'd even settle for his concert DVDs on BR with lossless audio.

there's a clip from Growing Up Live that's on the DTS-HD MA test disc that I had a chance to see... It's not a full song, but it looks damn purdy and the sound, well, you know...:)

An HD remaster from the original 16mm stuff shot by Scorsese in the 80s would be fab as well...

I must admit that I would have loved if they managed to shoot on 35mm the Lamb tour like the Queen Live BD. Hell, there are a number of classic tours that certainly could have used some top notch documentation. I guess they didn't know back then that music would never be bettered... :)

Darn you guys, you have gone and done it. You got me excited again for 3rd release. I was so calm as it was pushed back, and pushed back, and then pushed back some more. I just kept telling myself, it is because they want to re-master to up the AQ. And here we are, 3 months out, and I stumble across your little conversation, and now I can't wait. Darn you guys.

By the way, I have been waiting for this release since September.....2003

there's a clip from Growing Up Live that's on the DTS-HD MA test disc that I had a chance to see... It's not a full song, but it looks damn purdy and the sound, well, you know...:)

Wow, very cool!

Not the first time I've heard of DTS featuring PG over the years on their demo discs.

I dunno....I spent a few hours tonight with Foxtrot and I'm not convinced at all that a 5.1 multi-channel mix of either of my two favourite Genesis songs Get 'Em Out By Friday or Can-Utility and the Coastliners will benefit by anything that Nick Davis can manage to localize sounds in the rear channels.

In both of these songs, the stereo mix and imaging between Hackett, Banks and Rutherford is amazing, fantastic and not something that shoud be messed with IMO. Watcher of the Skies can go anywhere, no problem. So can Supper's Ready, we're already used to Seconds Out.

I'm convinced I only want a 2-ch SACD mix of the 1970-74 box set. Give me excellent two channel imaging with all of Lamb and I'm happy. Imagine Trespass in 5.1...it just wouldn't work. Well, my opinion :)

...natch, the nice thing is that you'll =also= get your 2ch mix. So we'll both be having nerdgasms when it comes out, dig? ;)

I dunno....I spent a few hours tonight with Foxtrot and I'm not convinced at all that a 5.1 multi-channel mix of either of my two favourite Genesis songs Get 'Em Out By Friday or Can-Utility and the Coastliners will benefit by anything that Nick Davis can manage to localize sounds in the rear channels.

In both of these songs, the stereo mix and imaging between Hackett, Banks and Rutherford is amazing, fantastic and not something that shoud be messed with IMO. Watcher of the Skies can go anywhere, no problem. So can Supper's Ready, we're already used to Seconds Out.

I'm convinced I only want a 2-ch SACD mix of the 1970-74 box set. Give me excellent two channel imaging with all of Lamb and I'm happy. Imagine Trespass in 5.1...it just wouldn't work. Well, my opinion :)

Well, we will hopefully find out soon. The thing I liked most of all from the prior SACD box sets was the improved clarity of Phil's vocals. If this set can do the same for Pete, then I will be happy.

There was no improved clarity per se, but a complete f$%$k up of the original mix's balance between vocals and instruments. The biggest "looser" was Hacket's guitar tracks, as the mix became a drum and keyboard dominated crap with Collins's vocals brought to the front, which what you call clarity. No thanks!

There was no improved clarity per se, but a complete f$%$k up of the original mix's balance between vocals and instruments. . .Collins's vocals brought to the front, which what you call clarity. No thanks!

Exactly. Not to mention the upper frequencies were boosted to insane levels. . .Collins sounds completely unnatural and raspy. The boost is so ridiculous that you can hear the static/noise around the vocals often associated with applying too much treble. To be fair, I don't mind bringing Collins's vocals to the front somewhat in those older albums, but in these new mixes they seem to sit on top of the rest of the mix in many songs. It's very inconsistent from song to song. So much of it was baked to oblivion.

I actually prefer to play these discs DTS 96/24 with the treble turned down 3-6 dB on my receiver. That at least helps somewhat with the EQ issues, compression issues aside. The SACDs are simply too harsh and I can't play with the treble on the analog signal given my current set up.

I can only hope Peter "helped" Nick Davis with the mixes on the first box set. Gabriel is my only hope for getting at least one box set sounding the way it SHOULD sound.

There was no improved clarity per se, but a complete f$%$k up of the original mix's balance between vocals and instruments. The biggest "looser" was Hacket's guitar tracks, as the mix became a drum and keyboard dominated crap with Collins's vocals brought to the front, which what you call clarity. No thanks!

I think you meant 'loser'! Spelling ability aside, I do happen to agree that the guitar bits did not fare well in these mixes, but on my system (tubes and ribbons) which leans towards the 'mellow' vocals are much improved.

I think you meant 'loser'! Spelling ability aside, I do happen to agree that the guitar bits did not fare well in these mixes, but on my system (tubes and ribbons) which leans towards the 'mellow' vocals are much improved.

Spelling ability?
Popinjay, did I spelled that right?

Guess what, this wasn't mixed on tube gear[though ribbon speakers might have been used, I don't know],but it shouldn't be a requirement to use tubes or any kind if "coloration" device in order to enjoy this.

Just got sick of people 'winging' on about the sound quality. Could they have been better, yes! Would it have been nice if they were not mixed so hot, also yes! But, listened to on a good SS rig, they do have their merits.

I look forward to the third set with fingers-crossed - particularly as the oldest recordings they may benefit most from a re-do.

Just got sick of people 'winging' on about the sound quality.

:rolleyes: And I get tired of the incessant attempts to defend sub-par mixing and mastering (not directing that at you ca1ore, just in general). But, hey, it's all good fun, I like all the passion for what we all love. In the end, we all have our opinions and we all have to right to express them in a reasonable manner. It's not cliche, it's the way it should be.

I don't think there is a "annoyingly persistent" degree of criticism about these albums on this forum. If, by "annoyingly persistent" you mean you can only criticize once and then that's it, even if it's weeks or months later. . .well then that's being unreasonable. Some folks don't like hearing any criticism at all and, well, that's just plain too bad.

I love this band more than any other, always have, always will. When you combine another big love of mine, hi-res surround, with my favorite band, you better expect that my standards will be high. Genesis doesn't deserve average, or "could have been better", they deserve the best. In any case, life goes on and we have one more box to look forward to.

Best,
Josh :)

On my good system SACDs and DVD-As from Porcupine Tree, Talking Heads, Roxy Music, The Doors etc all sound great.

I don't just find the Genesis bad. I find them unlistenable.

By this I don't mean that I cannot listen to it for a few minutes, or that it doesn't make ok quiet background music. I mean that if I settle down and try as hard as I can to just listen then I can't do it.

I guess the people that find them fine are lucky.

As far as I'm concerned, Genesis and Nick Davis (cursed be his name) should not be let off the hook. I'm still very annoyed.

Yeah, I tried recently to listen to Trick after having long ago retired these (after what? about 2 weeks), and just couldn't stomach it.

hrm... I certainly don't have the same feeling, thinking them "un-listenable" (literally) - sorry you guys don't enjoy these titles... These the SACD versions, or just the CD/DVD versions? Yes, the mix is different, yes, it's a bit harsh, but it's nowhere near as terrible as "unlistenable", imho, and I do thoroughly enjoy the set, the copious extras, the capable surround mixes, etc. Plus, I've still got the 2ch remasters, the vinyl, and numerous other variations should I wish to delve.

A missed opportunity to do a different/better job? Perhaps. But I don't think it's a matter of these needing to be dismissed entirely as useless...

Passions run high in prog, I worry the hyperbole may be masking the fact that these may not be definitive, but they're hardly obscene.

Yeah, I tried recently to listen to Trick after having long ago retired these (after what? about 2 weeks), and just couldn't stomach it.
I would agree. My boxed set of the first release sits gathering dust, rarely played (the extras were good but how many times can you watch them?). As comparison I would offer the Talking Heads Brick-perfect sound quality and I listen to it frequently, even though before this release I was a much bigger early period Genesis fan.

I still hold out hope for the next release-but will not pre order it like I did the first time.

Sharkshark,

If you went to a restaurant and half the customers started vomiting, but you felt fine, would you say the restaurant was not a case of "needing to be dismissed entirely as useless"?

Note that I am not reading from those who like the Genesis that Porcupine Tree, Talking Heads, The Doors, etc all sound bad.

Saying that I cannot sit down and listen to a whole album of the Genesis is not just an expression - I really cannot do this even though I have tried several times for each album in the first box set.

For me these discs can be called entirely useless, and what is even more tragic, a huge wasted opportunity to do it right.

Now would you recommend the restaurant I mentioned above to your friends just because you did not get sick? Or would you warn your friends that some people have had a very bad experience?

Nick Davis and Tony Banks on their critics:

“It hurts me when I listen to some things on the Hoffman forum,” says Davis, “they’re so offensive.” He has spent the best part of three years remixing all of Genesis’s albums, helped by the band’s keyboard player, Tony Banks. Working for new formats such as 5.1 and SACD, which boast twice the frequency range of CD, they’ve gone back to the original multitrack tapes – “remixing” rather than “remastering”.

Their aim, suggests Banks, was to make the songs sound superficially similar to the old versions yet offer more depth and detail on a closer listen. But the further you depart from the vinyl versions that your fans grew up with, the more you risk polarising opinions. “I went on Amazon,” Banks says, “and I read five-star reviews, and then I saw one guy giving one of the new versions zero stars, complaining it was too highly compressed! I honestly think there was something wrong with his system.” Perhaps they should have tried the Hoffman way, saved themselves some grief, just transferred the tapes flat? Davis sighs. “That,” he says, “just sounds awful.”

http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/music/article2877291.ece

And perhaps some faint hope for us that PG's involvement may improve the much anticipated early Genesis SACDs:

it: Peter obviously wasn't satisfied with The Lamb 5.1 Mix. What's the story behind that?

Nick Davis: Well, you know The Lamb was the first thing we've done and it was just a bit tame in the rear speakers really and he had just done his UP thing, which is completely bonkers in the rear speakers and so we needed to get somewhere between the two really, which we did - And I think it was actually quite a good thing because we improved it - and it maybe would have happened anyway because once we realised what was available we started doing more and more, you know. And I've also just remixed the ones I did right after the Lamb stuff, I went back and just put more in the rear speakers, improved everything a bit. But I still have a feeling that I don't want it to be disturbing in the rear speakers, I want it to be exciting, big, romantic - with lot's of energy. I don't want it just to be a gimmick. When I listen to some of the early stereo stuff, it goes left to right - it just drives me mad. I've done it a bit as well, I used it a bit more than I did on the first batch of surround mixes .

it: What about the other albums from the Gabriel-era. Do they still need Peter's approval?

Nick Davis: Yes, everyone gets to hear them for approval.

I once saw a movie (I think from Germany) where a very rich man was helping a very poor women. He took her to an expensive restaurant and he ordered some very good wine. She also asked for a lemonade.

The lady then added half a glass of lemonade to the good wine, saying "you should try this - it tastes great".

Nick Davis (cursed be his name) has obviously becomes so used to added sugar and bubbles in his wine that when someone says the wine is too sweet he disagrees and says without sugar it tastes awful.

He also knows that most people have become so used to added lemonade in their wine that he can even say that there is something wrong with someone who thinks his wine is too sweet.

Barry Diament (a very respected mastering engineer) remastered some of the Genesis catalog (which unfortunately never got released). He said that Abacab sounded amazing, and that you needed to hear the uncompressed master tape to really hear how amazing the compressed sound of the drums on that track worked.

I would be in heaven if the early Genesis was done to the same sound quality as Peter Gabriel's solo albums on SACD. Unfortunately Nick Davis's (cursed be his name) words above don't suggest that the sound will be any better.

Nick Davis and Tony Banks on their critics:

“It hurts me when I listen to some things on the Hoffman forum,” says Davis, “they’re so offensive.” He has spent the best part of three years remixing all of Genesis’s albums, helped by the band’s keyboard player, Tony Banks. Working for new formats such as 5.1 and SACD, which boast twice the frequency range of CD, they’ve gone back to the original multitrack tapes – “remixing” rather than “remastering”.

Their aim, suggests Banks, was to make the songs sound superficially similar to the old versions yet offer more depth and detail on a closer listen. But the further you depart from the vinyl versions that your fans grew up with, the more you risk polarising opinions. “I went on Amazon,” Banks says, “and I read five-star reviews, and then I saw one guy giving one of the new versions zero stars, complaining it was too highly compressed! I honestly think there was something wrong with his system.” Perhaps they should have tried the Hoffman way, saved themselves some grief, just transferred the tapes flat? Davis sighs. “That,” he says, “just sounds awful.”

http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/music/article2877291.ece

And perhaps some faint hope for us that PG's involvement may improve the much anticipated early Genesis SACDs:

it: Peter obviously wasn't satisfied with The Lamb 5.1 Mix. What's the story behind that?

Nick Davis: Well, you know The Lamb was the first thing we've done and it was just a bit tame in the rear speakers really and he had just done his UP thing, which is completely bonkers in the rear speakers and so we needed to get somewhere between the two really, which we did - And I think it was actually quite a good thing because we improved it - and it maybe would have happened anyway because once we realised what was available we started doing more and more, you know. And I've also just remixed the ones I did right after the Lamb stuff, I went back and just put more in the rear speakers, improved everything a bit. But I still have a feeling that I don't want it to be disturbing in the rear speakers, I want it to be exciting, big, romantic - with lot's of energy. I don't want it just to be a gimmick. When I listen to some of the early stereo stuff, it goes left to right - it just drives me mad. I've done it a bit as well, I used it a bit more than I did on the first batch of surround mixes .

it: What about the other albums from the Gabriel-era. Do they still need Peter's approval?

Nick Davis: Yes, everyone gets to hear them for approval.

LOL :D

I've seen all of these quotes before, but I'm in a mood to respond. . .


“It hurts me when I listen to some things on the Hoffman forum,” says Davis, “they’re so offensive.”

<sniffle> My heart bleeds Nick. . .about as much as my ears do when I listen to these discs. </sniffle>

Their aim, suggests Banks, was to make the songs sound superficially similar to the old versions yet offer more depth and detail on a closer listen.

When you compress the crap out of them, you can kiss "depth" goodbye. And if your idea of detail is 7-15dB boosts of treble, then you can keep your detail and I'll go back to those "awful" sounding original releases. SACD works best when you take advantage of the extra resolution afforded to you and take a minimalist approach. Otherwise, what's the point?

“I went on Amazon,” Banks says, “and I read five-star reviews, and then I saw one guy giving one of the new versions zero stars, complaining it was too highly compressed! I honestly think there was something wrong with his system.”

Ahh, yes Tony, you've been reading some of the retorts the Nick Davis Fan Club has been using on us crazy audiophiles! That's it, it's GOT to be the system! I mean, so many of my other SACDs/DVD-As sound amazing on my system, but I put Genesis in my system it just sputters and dies. Strange. . .I must need to buy a new system.

No Tony, the problem is with your hearing. Band members subjected to decades of loud music have no business being so heavily involved in the re-engineering of their work beyond, perhaps, the placement of instruments in the mix. They should be humble enough to realize their hearing just isn't what it used to be and bring someone in that is trained to listen properly and critically.

. . .and he had just done his UP thing, which is completely bonkers in the rear speakers. . .

Oh my. :eek: The money quote. . .poor Nick just doesn't get it.

I don't own the box sets but only 3 titles from these "remasters". Trick, Genesis'83 and Invisible Touch. Trick is by far the worst sounding of the 3, IMO. I like the surround mix per se, but the instrumentation and the lead vocal got a wrong balance on many songs.

If you went to a restaurant and half the customers started vomiting, but you felt fine, would you say the restaurant was not a case of "needing to be dismissed entirely as useless"?

...Well (we're gonna stretch a metaphor here!), if I go to a restaurant and it's good, but one or two people get sick due to either a preexisting condition or a weak constitution, I may not blame the restaurant... ;)

I kid, of course, and I don't want to be in the position of defending these mixes that you obviously despise. I simply suggest that while I concede your points that they could have been done -better- I don't feel them to be (on my own so-called "revealing" setup) an utter abortion of the source material.

I also agree that Tony's ears may not be quite up to snuff the way I'd respect, say, PG, though (sacrilege!) I also think that PG may not also be the best arbiter of the Genesis mixes, given his own proclivities for theatrical and excessive mixes aluded to by Nick.

Now, for the record, I kinda =love= tehatrical and excessive mixes (read: Flaming Lips, Polyphonic Spree, Zappa's Quadaudiophiliacs, etc.). But, you know, there are those that hate them. Hell, there are many, many more who hate surround music of any kind! In fact, I'm sure many of you even own Mono versions of Jazz or 50s/60s pop recordings (Beatles? Stones?) that you prefer to the Stereo mix.

I'm still not entirely sure, respectfully, that these mixes are "broken", I just think they may not be to your taste. That being said, I respect your right to hate them and demand a redux, as long as you respect our right to enjoy these mixes/releases independent of the limitations or differences to the original releases, and not be thought of as, well, -wrong- in our acceptence.

These mixes, for me, don't like the use of excessive DNR on BD, sofening the image, or high levels of compression that distort the sound to the point of fatigue.

I certainly have CDs that are far, far worse sounding than these, let alone other SACD releases that were significantly more disapointing to me from artists I care considerably less about.

We both agree that the key will be the treatment of the first set, and hopefully PGs involvement will make for a better exerience for all of us fans of this music.

Finally, I think I asked this before, you -do- have the SACD releases, right? Just making sure we're doing apples to apples here... FWIW, I find the brightness from many of my SACDs played back via analogue from my ES changer to be slightly ameliorated in the HDMI>DSD from my Oppo... You may wish to give that a shot, not a panacea, but maybe a bit of gravol so you don't get sick next time you sit down to dine... :)

I'm still not entirely sure, respectfully, that these mixes are "broken", I just think they may not be to your taste. That being said, I respect your right to hate them and demand a redux, as long as you respect our right to enjoy these mixes/releases independent of the limitations or differences to the original releases, and not be thought of as, well, -wrong- in our acceptence.

I wish I could enjoy these discs. So anyone who does is better off than me.

I wonder what will happen over the next ten years. Will some of those like me who hate these discs one day like them? Or will more of those who like these discs find that one day they sound bad?

All my comments are based on the SACD 5.1.

...I also think that PG may not also be the best arbiter of the Genesis mixes, given his own proclivities for theatrical and excessive mixes aluded to by Nick.

The only SACD surround sound mix of PG's that I am aware of is UP, which was tastefully done albeit in a less adventurous manner than Steve Wilson's oeuvre. I have no idea what Nick Davis was talking about an aggressive use of the back channels in UP, and figured that it just proved that he had absolutely no ear as a recording engineer; which is tragically and devastatingly ironic. Do you have any personal examples of theatrical and excessive mixes by PG? Were there issues with the 2-channel SACD releases? I don't recall noticing anything there. I often wished that US and SO were also remastered as 5.1 because of the dense rhythms PG uses in his music that often get overlapped when played on 2 channels.

The only SACD surround sound mix of PG's that I am aware of is UP...

...its not SACD, but the PLAY DVD has DTS 96/24 mixes of his greatest hits...

Please note above I'm all for crazy ass mixes when it comes to the likes of prog goodness...

I actually really like what they did with Fragile too, FWIW, in terms of how they dealt with the mix. A Night At the Opera is also a bit over-the-top, but, again, suitable for the music =and=, most importantly, all these releases also include Stereo mixes as well.

Michael, does your hatred extend to the 2ch SACD? I'm not pushing you to eat again a meal that nauseates you, but, well, I think it's sad you spent all this money and hate this so much you won't sell it...;)

I think Fragile did a great job with the Wakeman and Bruford short tracks. But was a bit tame with the main pieces. I played this DVD-A just a few days ago, and was very disappointed that it was lacking dynamics, and that Jon's voice just did not have the right clarity. The high-rez stereo version on that DVD-A is also too compressed. This DVD-A is listenable though!

Back to the Genesis: Everything I've read suggests that the SACD 2ch is worse than the SACD 5.1, and so I must admit I have never tried them. I'll give them a try tomorrow, and post back.

...go in with an open stomach! ;)

I couldn't be further from the truth when I said before that I had not listened to the SACD 2ch Genesis. I had sampled these tracks at home.

What's more, I had Trick of the Tail with me when I listened to a $60,000 system with Collin Whatmough when he demonstrated the flagship of his range of speakers that his company makes.

After listening to his demo discs, I put on some of my CDs to compare.

When I put on Trick of the Tail in SACD 2ch it was immediately so clear that it sounded terrible that it felt wrong to keep listening. So it was very quickly taken off. The better the system (and this was the best I've ever heard), the worse a victim of the loudness war sounds.

This morning I listened to the first few minutes of Dance on a Volcano on my more modest system (about $19,000). I started with the first release of Trick on CD. The CD was not perfect, but it had huge depth and air. It had all the signs of old style mastering, and I know that it would have been a pleasure to keep listening.

The 2ch SACD does have good impact when first played. Certainly there are benefits arising from the SACD quality and taking it from the original multi-tracks.

But much of this impact is also because this is Loudness War 101. Boosted highs, and lots of compression. Like the first bite of some very sweet chocolate the initial impression is wow. But I know that if I tried to eat the whole large block I would feel very sick at the end.

I judge a recording not by what I think in the first few minutes, but on how I am feeling at the end of the recording. When I get around to listening to all of the original CD of Trick of the Tail I'm sure that I will still be listening, still be playing it loud, and very much wanting to put some more music on straight away.

The SACD 2ch is the opposite. As it sounds similar to the multi-channel, I know that its initial attraction will quickly fade, and by the end of the album I would not be listening, I would have turned the volume down considerably, and I might be put off listening to music for a few days.

Cheers,
Michael

I suppose this is all previously covered ground, but I cannot resist a comment or two of my own ....

I do agree that these SACD versions are overly compressed, and that is a shame, particularly on songs with quieter passages like Ripples. But to my ears it is also fair to say that in SACD 5.1 (I have not bothered to listen any other way) there is detail and clarity in these recordings that easily surpasses all prior versions. I am fortunate to have a very hi-end audio system (+$100,000) and while I generally agree that better electronics find easier fault with poor recordings, my kit leans towards a 'mellower' sound that perhaps ameliorates the harshness to some degree.

I would not hold out much hope that the third set will be remastered/remixed differently than the first two. It has been chronicled before that Gabriel's objection to the SACD Lamb mix was about using the surround channels for ambiance versus descreet sounds, rather than objections about sound quality issues like compression.

Simon

...typing this as I listen to Dance on a Volcano... Moog bass peddles doing a nice job making my room rumble, and there's far less "ringing" in the high end from the Oppo's digital connection to my Integra then when I listen with my Sony (as per my notes above...)

It's certainly not perfect, and objections over choices can be made, but I sure as hell wished half my SACDs, let alone my CDs, sounded this good! :)

MMmmm... Entangled... I like the placement of the guitar bits in the surround scape, and they certainly don't sound piercing or "unlistenable"... The swoosh of the Hammond (I -think- that's a B3 running through a phaser peddle) does a nice back to front. I get a really full soundstage that's not as dynamic from quiet to soft, perhaps, but it's still very, very pleasing. The bass peddles again have really nice bottom to them, and the melotron choir and arp solo are spot on.

The drum sound of Squonk is certainly brighter than the old mix, and this song is probably the one that makes most cringe. I think it's a cool drum placement in surround space, again, but it's here that you really get a sense how bright this mix can be. Comaring the same drum sound on, say, Robbery, Assault... shows that the disc isn't a total loss... A much less in your face, less trebbly sound, but with. And I think Trick of the Tail sounds fine, frankly.

Again, I totally, totally hear what you guys that hate this are responding to, but I think there's lots to like in the first disc of the first set. =I= wouldn't have mixed it this way in terms of the trebble boost, but it's (for me) not a complete loss, and in fact there's some moments that are great (the chorus/bridge of Trick... is great!).

Running around in circles, of course, and we're not necessarily going to convince one another. Still, we can share a love of this band, a hope that the 3rd set lives up to all of our hopes, and that it arrives in short order!

ps $100,000 system? Lordy....

Sharkshark,

By now I think we can both agree to disagree :-)

From your satisfaction of the set, you may well pass this test, but for me "listenable" means that I can sit back, shut my eyes, and listen to the whole album.

Unlistenable is when my brain says do something else, and make the music just background to this other task. And going onto the net is one of the easiest distractions.

What we won't know is how each of us would respond to hearing this SACD on each other's system. I suspect that the main differences might be in our "wet-ware" rather than our hardware (ie our ears and brains).

Yesterday I played the SACD of Dead Can Dance's Into The Labyrinth. Yet another artist who has got it right. Why is it only the Genesis that makes me upset?

Improving your hi-fi is like climbing a ladder. When you move up one rung, then next rung is now closer, and this becomes your new "if I could only go one step higher". $100,000 is several rungs away from me!

Yesterday I played the SACD of Dead Can Dance's Into The Labyrinth. Yet another artist who has got it right. Why is it only the Genesis that makes me upset?

How do you have DCD? I have been waiting, not-so-patiently, but didn't think they were out until late-July! I am very jealous!

...ps $100,000 system? Lordy....

Oh, it's completely ridiculous - but just kind of sneaks up on you when you've been at it long enough! Also not sure the cost/benefit works out always but, WTF, got to be obsessive/compulsive about something, might as well be listening to music!

...yeah, I stumbled onto your discussion of your 9.1 system. Dude, that's so stooopid... ;)

Frankly, you all get a pass - we're obsessing about -software-, which, for me, is a legitimate thing to do. We all clearly love listening to music, and clearly -do- listen to music, not to specs, stats, bitrates, etc. Just cuz it's SACD it doesn't mean it's perfect, nor does remastered mean better.

$100, $1000, $10k, $100k, no matter the system, we all know of those that buy this stuff for the "penis factor", and never really sit down and -listen- (or watch) their bazillion dollar setups that they play clips of Crank or Fast and the Furious on....

Michael, when I get my ass over to Oz (gotta dive the reef before it, well, melts away), I'm coming over and we'll nerd out, k? Meanwhile I'm Google mapping the route to Stamford... ;)

Guess it helps to get DCD music when they're local, huh?

I got the Dead Can Dance SACD in the post from CD-WOW. I have emailed them asking whether or not they will soon stock the other 8 SACDs, as they had the best price on Labyrinth SACD which is the only one they currently stock.

I'll listen to the Labyrinth SACD again today and then post a review to that thread.

Your welcome to visit when in Oz. I'm in Melbourne which is only about 2000km south of the reef! (And the reef is almost certainly doomed because another effect of global warming is that it makes the oceans more acid, and this effects the reef as much as the higher temperatures.)

...yeah, I stumbled onto your discussion of your 9.1 system. Dude, that's so stooopid... ;)

Meanwhile I'm Google mapping the route to Stamford... ;)


Yeah, finally got that overhead speaker working properly :D Really snaps the soundstage into focus! Just cannot figure out where to put the last speaker - maybe I should just tape it to the back of my head.

Stamford ... easy drive - a few hundred miles south!

Your welcome to visit when in Oz. I'm in Melbourne which is only about 2000km south of the reef! (And the reef is almost certainly doomed because another effect of global warming is that it makes the oceans more acid, and this effects the reef as much as the higher temperatures.)

Near Perth, right? Just to the right of Alice Springs?

I kid, of course... Sadly, we learn geography in this country. Can even find Canada on a map, we can!

A continent -and- an Island, how does one cope?

All kidding aside, I'd love to dive Indonesia, but that's not going to happen either... Hell, I'd also love to have a diving helmet pumping in Genesis music, I'd make sure it was the older masters, tho... :)

Well, my boxset of 76-82 just arrived from Germany this morning (less than a week after ordering it, for a good price, and no import taxes/duty :cool: ), so I can finally wade into "the great debate". Having these in MCH already biases me favourably, so I'm less likely to be hypercritical. However, I have some releases in my collection of music whose less than stellar sound quality limits my enjoyment of music I otherwise adore--so if it reaches that level, I'll be honest about it. I plan to compare the SACD to the DVD to the CDs I already have. Have my fingers crossed that the MCH will trump any shortcomings.

bonne chance...

:)

Very initial impressions--only compared one track SACD MCH to DVD DTS 96/24--Blood on the Rooftops. Was not able to form a serious opinion (comparison conditions were not optimal yesterday) but I can say that they are noticeably different even with a casual examination. Not sure which I prefer, if either, at the moment. I did like the MCH mix, though (as a separate issue from sound quality) as that is what I most focused upon in the first go around. Will continue my comparisons.

Compared a few songs (SACD vs DVD DTS 96/24) across three albums--Wind..., And Then... and Duke. Still early impressions, though I had time (and quiet) to do some listening of a more critical nature. So far:

The mixes (MCH)--presumably the same on each version (I can't tell any differences, if any). I've enjoyed the mixes so far (though I could swear there is a missing guitar part in Misunderstanding). Not always the choices I would have made (I would have been a bit more adventurous) but pretty solid nonetheless. I still have enough left to consider to make me change mind, but so far so good.

The sound quality--definitely a mixed bag so far. Nothing I would categorize as "unlistenable" but not among the best sounding audio in my overall collection. There is a distinct difference between the sonic "character" of the SACD and DVD DTS 96/24. The SACD has a "hotter" treble sound and I can certainly see where, on some speakers, it might be fatiguing (Klipsch come to mind as far as my experience goes). With my Boston Acoustics VR-Ms, it flirts with being "too bright" in spots, but not always. The DTS 96/24, on the other hand, is a bit "bass heavy" in spots, but not nearly as "hot" in the treble. If I could "marry" the best of the two (less "hot" treble with "tighter bass") things would be a lot better (if still not top of the class). So far, I'd have to say (based on my limited sample of two to three songs from each album) that I prefer the DTS of Wind and And Then, despite the slightly bloated bass BUT I prefer the SACD of Duke because its treble, while also a bit "hot", is under better control and the DTS of Duke seems to lack more detail (I know it's lossy) than the other two DTS versions I've sampled so far.

I'll have a better idea once I've listened to more of the material, but I suspect some of the "confusion" (in terms of contradictory "hate it"/"love it" comments I've read in various places online) might arise from whether someone has sampled the DTS or the SACD for MCH. The complaints about "bright" and "hot treble" are certainly more appropriate to the SACDs and that is what appears to fuel the bulk of the ire.

I have NOT tried the 2 channel CD or SACD versions (though I've heard some of the remixed tracks in 2 channel on the Platinum Collection and found them to be fine), so I have nothing to say about that except: "I'll get around to it".

More listening and comments to come.

I do agree that these SACD versions are overly compressed, and that is a shame, particularly on songs with quieter passages like Ripples. But to my ears it is also fair to say that in SACD 5.1 (I have not bothered to listen any other way) there is detail and clarity in these recordings that easily surpasses all prior versions.

First of all, the previous versions were stereo [you know the way you didn't bother to listen to] so comparison of the MCH and the old 2 ch version is apples to oranges at best. Besides the surround mix, there were fundamental changes in orchestration and overall balance which is there on the 2 ch layer as well. Also keep that in mind, that neither the original source nor the workstation these were created on were pure DSD, so the SACD's contribution is simply limited to a "delivery" device and nothing more.

BTW "Genesis" and Invisible Touch sounds much better the Trick...
I caught Mike R. saying on the interviews that those "Hugh Padgham's mixes were so good they didn't need much remix". and it shows. Nick Davis should be banned from the Farm.

...well, Ovation, I did kick in 2ch SACD vs CD, but have yet to do serious listening to the DVD layers (hell, I paid extra for SACD, so it's -got- to be better, right?)

I'll give it a try, what the hell...

Did you buy the 3rd (2nd released) set yet? As above, I look at it as paying $100 for a surround mix of Mama, the rest for the the remaining tracks on G/IT, and in turn got two crap later albums for free. Not sure it's worth it, but, well, WTF. ;)

I haven't bought the 83-98 set yet. I want to do a thorough comparison of the SACD MCH vs the DVD MCH before I get it. If I find the DVD MCH versions of the 76-82 set more appealing overall (in theory, I should not, but format is not everything), then I will likely decide to go with the DVD only releases available locally (unless they are pricier than the sets I found in Germany).

I can see where some might be upset with the 2 channel remixes and/or the sound quality of the SACD layer (for those who got them) but my reason for getting these is for the MCH mixes. I've noticed some differences in the 2 channel remixes (mostly from the Platinum Collection 3 CD set from a few years ago) but none of them stands out (so far) as so different that they would be a "must have" by themselves. If there were no MCH releases, I'd be perfectly happy with the 94 definitive remasters and the two archive box sets.

Interesting how the latest box sets have provoked such a response....it's either you love 'em or hate 'em. I'll add my 2 cents.

I have to side with Ca1ore on this debate and I'll explain why. I've made it clear I'm not a multi-channel music kinda guy. Movies of course, but not music. Even if I have the option of M/C music I still prefer two-channel so my comments are coming from the perspective of the 2-Ch SACD's.

My system has many sources which include an Oppo 980H for SD-DVD and an Ayre C-5xe for music (CD/SACD/DVD-A). The Oppo is connected via HDMI into a Statement D2 prepro where the L/R main outputs are connected to an Ayre KX-R preamp (running in passthrough) and the center/surrounds to an Ayre V-6xe three channel amp. The KX-R is connected to two Ayre MX-R monoblocks out to each of my main speakers. For music, my C-5xe goes directly into the KX-R via balanced cables. I use balanced cables all around.

When I listen to the SACD versions of TOTT or WAW on the Oppo, the sound is just as abrasive as mentioned in this thread. I much prefer the original mixes in this case. However, when I listen to these discs via the superb DACs in my C-5xe, the SACD sound is utterly magnificent...open and detailed, I hear sounds I have never heard before and the imaging is superb. As such, I've truely rediscovered these discs and it's amazing, I can't stop listening to them.

I honestly *feel* for those who are let down by the box sets...what a drag that must be. On the other hand I feel entirely fortunate that I'm able to enjoy these discs to the fullest extent. I can hardly wait to get my hands on the '70 - '74 box set :)

.............. in other words one can bake a cheesecake out of horse manure you just need the right oven. :D

First of all, the previous versions were stereo [you know the way you didn't bother to listen to] so comparison of the MCH and the old 2 ch version is apples to oranges at best.

Well, actually I listen to all recordings in surround thanks to a remarkably innovative ambiance extraction algorithm called 'trifield' that is avaialable in my Meiridan processor (you know, the 'special' oven that turns crap into music;)). Purists will cringe, I suppose, but to my ears it almost always sounds better.

So my listening experience with Genesis has been in surround for quite a number of years. Even if it hadn't, the assertion that 5.1 vs. 2.0 is 'apples to oranges' is an absurd notion if, at the end of the day, one is looking for the most realistic presentation of the music. While some of the instrumentation choices stretch this definition of 'realistic' in the surround mix, the back-to-front depth and side-to-side imaging simply cannot be touched in the conventional 2-channel mixes.

The current SACD 5.1 mixes are my references, not perfect, but overall less imperfect than the other choices.

Enough said on this topic from me, I'm actually going to go and listen to my oven!

I find matrixed MCH to be hit or miss (I don't have a Meridian processor, however, so I cannot have an opinion on the Trifield--only read good things about it though). But discrete MCH has never failed to sound better among the ones I own (there could be some MCH releases that I might not prefer over the 2 channel, but I've yet to find one).

Even something like a solo piano recording (Pletnev Plays Schumann and Private Brubeck Remembers are two I listen to frequently) benefits significantly from a MCH presentation over a two channel one.

So far, the Genesis discs I've listened to (in part, haven't had time to sit through a whole album yet) are not among the best in sound quality in my collection, but they are not "horse manure" by a long shot.

Eh, to each his own.

I find matrixed MCH to be hit or miss (I don't have a Meridian processor, however, so I cannot have an opinion on the Trifield--only read good things about it though). But discrete MCH has never failed to sound better among the ones I own (there could be some MCH releases that I might not prefer over the 2 channel, but I've yet to find one).

Even something like a solo piano recording (Pletnev Plays Schumann and Private Brubeck Remembers are two I listen to frequently) benefits significantly from a MCH presentation over a two channel one.

So far, the Genesis discs I've listened to (in part, haven't had time to sit through a whole album yet) are not among the best in sound quality in my collection, but they are not "horse manure" by a long shot.

Eh, to each his own.

I agree that matrixed surround presentation is a hit or miss as well. Some album could really benefit from it other's get's "confusing". But in any case it's not the same as discrete MCH recordings at all.

BTW the "horse manure" thing wasn't about the quality of the recording but was more about the notion that one needs an ultra expensive equipment to "unlock" the magic that some recording like the Genesis sets have that lesser equipments simply can't reproduce. Now that is a horse-****!

I find matrixed MCH to be hit or miss (I don't have a Meridian processor, however, so I cannot have an opinion on the Trifield--only read good things about it though).


Yes, I would agree. Listened to a lot of them about 10 years ago and the only two that really impressed me were Trifield from Meridian and one from Lexicon that I cannot now remember (Circle 6, maybe). Otherwise they were generally crap!

BTW the "horse manure" thing wasn't about the quality of the recording but was more about the notion that one needs an ultra expensive equipment to "unlock" the magic that some recording like the Genesis sets have that lesser equipments simply can't reproduce. Now that is a horse-****!

Certainly better systems will preform at a higher level, but it is my experience that a bad recording will typically sound even worse on a better (i.e. more resolving) quality rig.

The point that I have always made about SACD, however, is that the resolving power required to really hear the sonic improvements is available to so few consumers that the format is effectively irrelevant (as mass market sales have proven). If a 'uber-expensive' system is required to hear the difference then the format is doomed.

It would be interesting to be able do a blind comparison between a redbook 2 channel mix and a SACD 2 channel mix on systems at diverse price points to see if one can draw any practical conclusions. The problem has alwsy been finding source material to do the comparison that doesn't also have other differences (i.e different mixes, recording levels, etc.).

Certainly better systems will preform at a higher level, but it is my experience that a bad recording will typically sound even worse on a better (i.e. more resolving) quality rig.

The point that I have always made about SACD, however, is that the resolving power required to really hear the sonic improvements is available to so few consumers that the format is effectively irrelevant (as mass market sales have proven). If a 'uber-expensive' system is required to hear the difference then the format is doomed.

It would be interesting to be able do a blind comparison between a redbook 2 channel mix and a SACD 2 channel mix on systems at diverse price points to see if one can draw any practical conclusions. The problem has alwsy been finding source material to do the comparison that doesn't also have other differences (i.e different mixes, recording levels, etc.).

Good post, not much can be argued there. The only thing what I already mentioned is, that these are not pure DSD recordings, so they could have been DVD-A just as well.

BTW Lexicon calls it's proprietary surround mode Logic 7

My experience is that a bad recording (which is properly mastered) sounds BETTER on a better system. Of course it always sounds like a bad recording. But the better system seems to separate the recording faults from the music, and on the better system you hear the music underneath much more clearly.

A badly mastered recording (such as the Genesis SACD's or any other victim of the Loundness Wars) sounds WORSE as the system gets better. The better system more precisely presents the distortions due to the compression, and as this becomes more accurate it hurts the ears.

If SACD and DVD-A had been used just to present music without the excess compression of the Loudness Wars then it would have been very easy for even the average punter to hear the difference between the very compressed CD and the dynamic SACD.

The extra resolution of the SACD / DVD-A would then just be a bonus for the audiophiles.

Having listened to Porcupine Tree's Lightbulb Sun in DVD-A surround many times, I tried the 16/48 original mix for the first time yesterday.

On my rather good system the difference between CD and Hi-Rez is rather obvious (to me).

Cheers,
Michael

I don't know - I suppose I have never bothered to try to sort out bad mastering from bad recording from bad whatever ....

All I know is that I have a number of live CDs (some 'official' others 'bootleg') from various bands, including Genesis, that are passable in the car or on the walkman but unlistenable on the 'big rig'.

I would agree that subjectively I prefer SACD or DVD-A versions of albums to their CD counterparts, however, it would be interesting to see of these preferences hold up under more controlled scrutiny.

Although I have invested sums that most would consider lunacy in my music system, I have always tried to maintain at least a semblance of logic to them. No crazy priced cables, or tuning pucks, or mega-buck power conditioners. Even so, i often wonder if many of the differences I believe I hear would stand up to blind testing.

Oh well, a debate for another time!

Even so, i often wonder if many of the differences I believe I hear would stand up to blind testing.



The difference is that these Genesis SACD's do NOT stand up to blind testing.
This thread should close until the Peter Gabriel ones come out.

The difference is that these Genesis SACD's do NOT stand up to blind testing.
This thread should close until the Peter Gabriel ones come out.

Sigh! Always someone who manages to completely miss the point.

Has anyone compared the waveforms directly between the definitive remaster CDs and the 2 channel SACDs?

There have been some threads in other fora where the waveforms were compared between vinyl and new CD releases of the same material and the compression was obvious (even though the degree of it was hotly debated).

There are two different things that might make the newer remixes undesirable to some:

First being simply a different mix than the one that you might have a strong familiarity with; developed over many years, or even decades. In this case, the question would be, if the new mix were the first you had heard years ago, would you have adopted it as the cherished reference over time; or would you have dismissed the band outright because their music was unlistenable?

(As a Mike Oldfield fan from way back, I always much preferred the versions of Hergest Ridge and Ommadawn from the Boxed box set (LP version) compared with the original LP album releases--I had both. I often have wondered if this was solely because I got the Boxed set first. Oldfield changed the mixes for Boxed specifically to improve--in his mind--on the originals.)

Secondly, the SACDs may indeed be victims of the loudness wars; lacking any depth due to being overly compressed. I would like to see proof of this by comparing the waveforms. I will do this comparison myself when the last set is released. Since that is the only one that I have a strong desire to own, it will likely be the only one I will buy in any case.

Of course, the third option is a new, unfamiliar mix that is also compressed. It would still be interesting to know whether it is the compression, or different placement of instruments/vocals that is the key to peoples' problem with these.

Of course when I get to compare the PG era SACDs to the Def. Remaster CDs, it won't matter. Since I will be using an Oppo 970 as transport, they will all be garbage out. :p

Of course when I get to compare the PG era SACDs to the Def. Remaster CDs, it won't matter. Since I will be using an Oppo 970 as transport, they will all be garbage out. :p

Huh?

Huh?

Read Uppacreek's post for refernce on that "joke"

Has anyone compared the waveforms directly between the definitive remaster CDs and the 2 channel SACDs?

There have been some threads in other fora where the waveforms were compared between vinyl and new CD releases of the same material and the compression was obvious (even though the degree of it was hotly debated).

There are two different things that might make the newer remixes undesirable to some:

First being simply a different mix than the one that you might have a strong familiarity with; developed over many years, or even decades. In this case, the question would be, if the new mix were the first you had heard years ago, would you have adopted it as the cherished reference over time; or would you have dismissed the band outright because their music was unlistenable?

(As a Mike Oldfield fan from way back, I always much preferred the versions of Hergest Ridge and Ommadawn from the Boxed box set (LP version) compared with the original LP album releases--I had both. I often have wondered if this was solely because I got the Boxed set first. Oldfield changed the mixes for Boxed specifically to improve--in his mind--on the originals.)

Secondly, the SACDs may indeed be victims of the loudness wars; lacking any depth due to being overly compressed. I would like to see proof of this by comparing the waveforms. I will do this comparison myself when the last set is released. Since that is the only one that I have a strong desire to own, it will likely be the only one I will buy in any case.

Of course, the third option is a new, unfamiliar mix that is also compressed. It would still be interesting to know whether it is the compression, or different placement of instruments/vocals that is the key to peoples' problem with these.

It's both. As I posted before the balance and placement of the instruments are completely different, and the vocal has been moved "forward" and much louder. It's almost as bad as a "karaoke" mix IMO. Oh there is also echo of the solo vocals[Dance On the Volcano] that wasn't there originally. :( The compression would be very obvious on first listen within seconds. All of these comments regarding the Trick Of The Tail album MCH SACD.

I think most of the people that have a problem with the SACDs are referring to the harshness of the recording, and not the placment of the instruments in the MCH. Genesis music (to me) represented Dynamics. And a lot of the headroom seems to have been taken away on these recordings through digital compression. (I have abused digital compression on my own recordings to get the loudness that you hear on pro recordings)

As far as MCH mixes, and the placement of instruments and Phil's voice, that is all just an experiment, a fun new take on the old recordings. Phil's voice sounding louder and closer (imo) is because the rest of the instruments have been moved to the side further and there is a lot more space to really hear all of the nuances.

But the SACD MUST also include a 2-ch version of the songs in the highest quality available. And most of us don't feel it was given to us. Just try turning it up a little bit louder than normal listening level, and if your ears don't start to feel strained after one song, you might want to have them checked:)

Read Uppacreek's post for refernce on that "joke"

Just to be clear, I didn't say the Oppo as a transport is garbage out and I certainly didn't intend to imply that. My 980 is fantastic for SD-DVD. I did however say that for the Genesis SACD's in 2-ch it doesn't produce the sound that I'm enjoying from my C-5xe. That's to be expected given the difference in price of these units.

Just to be clear, I didn't say the Oppo as a transport is garbage out and I certainly didn't intend to imply that. My 980 is fantastic for SD-DVD. I did however say that for the Genesis SACD's in 2-ch it doesn't produce the sound that I'm enjoying from my C-5xe. That's to be expected given the difference in price of these units. No, you were implying that your Ayre made this recording something more, that other players like the Oppo can't. :eek:
Also price seems to be a misleading factor for many when it comes to digital equipment, especially when they are connected in different ways, to different components. The more expensive always sounds better because it is expected.
But even if they were connected to the same amp via analog, I don't expect that you would "enjoy" your Oppo the same way as your Ayre ;)

No, you were implying that your Ayre made this recording something more, that other players like the Oppo can't. :eek:

Well I didn't say the Ayre "made this recording something more", that's your interpretation of my post, but yes, I did say that the sonics produced by the Ayre are superior to the Oppo when playing the Genesis SACD's in 2-ch. The Ayre simply does a wonderful job with SACD which is evident in listening to the new Genesis discs.

Also price seems to be a misleading factor for many when it comes to digital equipment, especially when they are connected in different ways, to different components. The more expensive always sounds better because it is expected. But even if they were connected to the same amp via analog, I don't expect that you would "enjoy" your Oppo the same way as your Ayre ;)

Perhaps, but the Oppo is used in my system only for SD-DVD, when I listen to CD's I use the Ayre. The reason I even inserted the Genesis SACD's into the Oppo was to try to understand why so many people didn't like the discs. From day one I've used the Ayre and have been very happy with the SACD's, but when I played the discs in the Oppo the compression effects were more audible.

...you -are- talking via analogue, correct? sorry if I missed this, but if you're sending from the Ayre via analogue and the Oppo via analogue, I would certainly expect a different sound from different DAC implementations. As above, the difference between my Oppo (HDMI) and Sony ES (Analogue) through the Integra (9.8 :) ) is quite noticeable.

That said, I'm not sure that the Ayre does something superior to my Oppo/Integra setup. But, I'm skeptical like that...;)

...you -are- talking via analogue, correct?

Yes, analog out, my prepro cannot currently decode DSD. But you've got me thinking...I haven't tried PCM from the Oppo (via HDMI) to my prepro to see if that makes any audible difference.

Yes, analog out, my prepro cannot currently decode DSD. But you've got me thinking...I haven't tried PCM from the Oppo (via HDMI) to my prepro to see if that makes any audible difference.

The general sense, from those few who have tried it, is that converting DSD to PCM in the Oppo and then sending the latter over HDMI is superior to the analog connections. I use a DVDUpgrades MCH PCM output from my player to my processor and it is audibly superior to analog.

but when I played the discs in the Oppo the compression effects were more audible.

Any compression is inherent to the disk. I can't imagine how the DACs in the Ayre can overcome that.:confused:

In the complaints about the middle set, I have heard specific comments about TOTT. Compression aside, I wonder if anyone has comments specifically about ATTWT, which is my favorite from the middle period.

For those that think they are unlistenable, or at least very bad, is that an across the board condemnation? Are there ups and downs within the set?

I'm going out on a limb here, and suggest that things get better as the discs get newer, even for those that find them unlistenable... :)

As someone that appreciates the problems, yet thinks they're not a complete loss and made up for with really enjoyable surround mixes, I'd still claim that the latter albums are less prone to the issues of the first.

Similarly, many find issues of over-compression less egregious on the second (aka., third period) set.

Yes, analog out, my prepro cannot currently decode DSD. But you've got me thinking...I haven't tried PCM from the Oppo (via HDMI) to my prepro to see if that makes any audible difference.

I think you'll hear quite a bit of difference. As I said above several times, making it sound -different- is easy... It's when you get into whether that difference is -better- that the argument comes up...:)

Heck, Kal can hear the difference between DSD and PCM from the Oppo into the Integra. So, there are fun things to worry about, naturally... Digital may be digital, but "direct" is rarely direct, and each device often does colour it its own way the sound.

Let me know what you find out, and try to allow mentally for a $150 player to sound -better- than your $4000+ Ayre beast... :)

Shark,
I agree that they are not throw away SACDs, they have a purpose with the experiment of a MCH mix.

I think that you find less complaints over the latter recording because of the writing/recording style. The Genesis (shapes) is where they became hit makers, and they really simplified things. Tony was playing more synths at that point, The guitar playing is just a background instrument and Phil had really learn how to write and sing for top 40. Plus they were using drum machines more. Those elements really helped produce a very nice "packaged" top 40 sound. There weren't as many dynamics in the writing and playing. So, to get the sound Nick Davies was looking for, it wasn't that much of a change.

When I think about old Genesis, I am excited to hear the full dynamics of Phil's accenting tom rolls, Tony's encompassing organ/melatron, Mike's crafted basslines and 12-string work, and Steve's nuances. Not to mention Peter's vocal dynamics.

Nursery Crymes,Foxtrot, selling England by the Pound, and the Lamb MUST Be DONE CORRECTLY. oh, I can only hope.

Nursery Crymes,Foxtrot, selling England by the Pound, and the Lamb MUST Be DONE CORRECTLY. oh, I can only hope.


Not to mention Trespass, an oft overlooked masterpiece.

For the most part I have the highest hopes for Nursery Cryme. I think this was badly recorded in general. Hogweed is nearly unlistenable:D; though the version on Genesis - Live elevates it to one of their best early tracks (IMO).

Similarly Foxtrot was much less polished than either SEBTP or Lamb.

as always, i think we're all agreed that the set we're waiting for is the one that would suck the most if it were bludgeoned with a heavy hand of compression and modernization...

Hell, I'd love a surround mix of From Genesis to Revelation, but that ain't gonna happen, is it? :)

Was looking at an Anthony Phillips CD today and shaking my head in wonder. Like, who buys this stuff?!

Oh, right. Us. ;)

Any compression is inherent to the disk. I can't imagine how the DACs in the Ayre can overcome that.:confused:

Thanks for bringing that up since I didn't really explain before. It's not that the Ayre overcomes the compression, the compression is still evident in the recording mix, but I do get the impression that the waveform is *smoother* for lack of a better (or more technically correct) word. As such, I'm spending less time cringing due to over-saturated transients and actually hearing an improved image in my L/R soundstage.

The Genesis SACD's will normally sound like the waveform is truncated and harsh which is of course hard to listen to, whereas from the Ayre the harsh elements are for the most part (i.e. not entirely) removed, hence the result is much more listenable. Now, this may not be attributable only to the Ayre CD player, it could be the result of the signal flow through my whole system.

I don't know if that makes any sense, but I *do* hear a really nice dynamic sound with the Genesis SACD's in 2-ch. I'm a long time Gen fan going back to the late 70's and so I wouldn't take that position if I didn't genuinely mean it.

"Looking for Someone" , pretty bold introduction to an album, second only to " Can you tell me where country lies". Even though I am a fan of Tresspass, I am not worrying about a MCH version or even good quality 2 channel. I don't think they had found their own talent, as to say, their individual parts didn't add up to the sum. Plus I have a feeling the audio quality is severely lacking on the masters. Plus, there was "Analog" distortion during stagnation "Ha ha ha ha, I want to sit down".

Alright now I am in the mood to listen to the whole catalog this weekend.


Not to mention Trespass, an oft overlooked masterpiece.

For the most part I have the highest hopes for Nursery Cryme. I think this was badly recorded in general. Hogweed is nearly unlistenable:D; though the version on Genesis - Live elevates it to one of their best early tracks (IMO).

Similarly Foxtrot was much less polished than either SEBTP or Lamb.

Not sure if this has been conveyed here yet, but(Courtesy of Roland at genesis official music forum):

GENESIS - BOX SET 3 CONTENT

TRESSPASS
CD/SACD
1. Looking for Someone - 7:02
2. White Mountain - 6:44
3. Visions of Angels - 6:51
4. Stagnation - 8:46
5. Dusk - 4:11
6. The Knife - 8:53

CD/SACD TOTAL: 42:27

DVD
1. Looking for Someone - 7:02
2. White Mountain - 6:44
3. Visions of Angels - 6:51
4. Stagnation - 8:46
5. Dusk - 4:11
6. The Knife - 8:53

1. Reissues Interview 2007 - 42:35


NURSERY CRYME
CD/SACD
1. Musical Box - 10:31
2. For Absent Friends - 1:48
3. Return of the Giant Hogweed - 8:09
4. Seven Stones - 5:09
5. Harold the Barrel - 3:00
6. Harlequin - 2:56
7. The Fountain of Salmacis - 8:00

CD/SACD TOTAL: 39:33

DVD
1. Musical Box - 10:31
2. For Absent Friends - 1:48
3. Return of the Giant Hogweed - 8:09
4. Seven Stones - 5:09
5. Harold the Barrel - 3:00
6. Harlequin - 2:56
7. The Fountain of Salmacis - 8:00

DVD EXTRAS
1. Reissues Interview 2007 - 36:19



FOXTROT
CD/SACD
1. Watcher of the Skies - 7:22
2. Time Table - 4:46
3. Get 'em out by Friday - 8:36
4. Can-Utility and the Coastliners - 5:45
5. Horizons - 1:41
6. Supper's Ready - 23:04

CD/SACD TOTAL: 51:14

DVD
1. Watcher of the Skies - 7:22
2. Time Table - 4:46
3. Get 'em out by Friday - 8:36
4. Can-Utility and the Coastliners - 5:45
5. Horizons - 1:41
6. Supper's Ready - 23:04

DVD EXTRAS
1. Reissues Interview 2007 - 34:18
2. Brussels, Belgium - Rock of the 70's 1972 - 29:22
3. Rome, Italy - Piper Club 1972 - 4:07


SELLING ENGLAND BY THE POUND
CD/SACD
1. Dancing with the Moonlit Knight - 8:02
2. I Know What I Like (In your Wardrobe) - 4:10
3. Firth of Fifth - 9:35
4. More Fool Me - 3:10
5. Battle of Epping Forest - 11:44
6. After the Ordeal - 4:15
7. The Cinema Show - 10:41
8. Aisle of Plenty - 1:56

CD/SACD TOTAL: 53:33

DVD
1. Dancing with the Moonlit Knight - 8:02
2. I Know What I Like (In your Wardrobe) - 4:10
3. Firth of Fifth - 9:35
4. More Fool Me - 3:10
5. Battle of Epping Forest - 11:44
6. After the Ordeal - 4:15
7. The Cinema Show - 10:41
8. Aisle of Plenty - 1:56


DVD EXTRAS
1. Reissues Interview2007 - 32:38
2. Shepperton Studios, Italian TV 1973 - 1:00:50
3. Bataclan, France 1973 - 33:52



THE LAMB LIES DOWN ON BROADWAY
CD/SACD
1. The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway - 4:51
2. Fly on a Windshield - 2:44
3. Broadway Melody of 1974 - 2:11
4. Cuckoo Cocoon - 2:13
5. In the Cage - 8:09
6. The Grand Parade of Lifeless Packaging - 2:44
7. Back in N.Y.C. - 5:36
8. Hairless Heart - 2:06
9. Counting Out Time - 4:12
10. The Carpet Crawlers - 5:11
11. The Chamber of 32 Doors - 5:39
12. Lilywhite Lilith - 2:48
13. The Waiting Room - 5:15
14. Anyway - 3:08
15. Here Comes the Supernatural Anaesthetist - 2:56
16. The Lamia - 6:56
17. Silent Sorrow in Empty Boats - 2:58
18. The Colony of Slippermen - 8:11
19. Ravine - 2:06
20. The Light Dies Down on Broadway - 3:32
21. Riding the Scree - 4:06
22. In the Rapids - 2:18
23. It - 4:17

CD/SACD TOTAL: 1:34:07

DVD
1. The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway - 4:51
2. Fly on a Windshield - 2:44
3. Broadway Melody of 1974 - 2:11
4. Cuckoo Cocoon - 2:13
5. In the Cage - 8:09
6. The Grand Parade of Lifeless Packaging - 2:44
7. Back in N.Y.C. - 5:36
8. Hairless Heart - 2:06
9. Counting Out Time - 4:12
10. The Carpet Crawlers - 5:11
11. The Chamber of 32 Doors - 5:39
12. Lilywhite Lilith - 2:48
13. The Waiting Room - 5:15
14. Anyway - 3:08
15. Here Comes the Supernatural Anaesthetist - 2:56
16. The Lamia - 6:56
17. Silent Sorrow in Empty Boats - 2:58
18. The Colony of Slippermen - 8:11
19. Ravine - 2:06
20. The Light Dies Down on Broadway - 3:32
21. Riding the Scree - 4:06
22. In the Rapids - 2:18
23. It - 4:17

DVD EXTRAS
1. Reissues Interview 2007 - 50:00
2. Melody - French TV 1974 - 30:25





EXTRA TRACKS 1970 TO 1975

CD/SACD
1. Happy the Man (7" single) - 3:10
2. Twilight Alehouse (B-side - I Know What I Like) - 7:48
3. Going out to get You (Demo) - 4:55
4. Shepherd (BBC Nightride) - 4:04
5. Pacidy (BBC Nightride) - 5:44
6. Let us now make Love (BBC Nightride) - 6:16
7. Provocation (Genesis plays Jackson) - 4:10
8. Frustration (Genesis plays Jackson) - 3:42
9. Manipulation (Genesis plays Jackson) - 3:49
10. Resignation (Genesis plays Jackson) - 3:01

CD/SACD TOTAL: 46:39

DVD
1. Happy the Man (7" single) - 3:10
2. Twilight Alehouse (B-side - I Know What I Like) - 7:48
3. Going out to get You (Demo) - 4:55
4. Shepherd (BBC Nightride) - 4:04
5. Pacidy (BBC Nightride) - 5:44
6. Let us now make Love (BBC Nightride) - 6:16
7. Provocation (Genesis plays Jackson) - 4:10
8. Frustration (Genesis plays Jackson) - 3:42
9. Manipulation (Genesis plays Jackson) - 3:49
10. Resignation (Genesis plays Jackson) - 3:01

DVD EXTRAS
1. Reissues Interview 2007 - 6:00
2. Box Set 1967 - 1975 VH1 Special - (tbc)

I guess Gabriel is a bit of a talker--those interviews are a lot longer than on the 76-82 set.

oh, man I want this... was listening to Carpet Crawlers on Vinyl yesterday for fun...

OT, slightly - picked up the live in Rome, doesn't seem so bad. At least Phil can sing still...

Where are you guys ordering your SACDs from (in North America) - I went with CD Universe for my first set, but they were unable to get the second one at a reasonable price, so picked it up from Acoustic Sounds... Meanwhile, neither of them have preorders available.

Man, I just want this already... so sick of waiting. :)

I ordered mine from jpc (in Germany) shipped to Canada--came to 145$ US with shipping included. Arrived in under a week. No import duties or taxes.

Hi, I was looking for the SACD's at Best Buy they did have them but must of sold out. I then went to the CD section and saw in the Genesis section, CD/DVD's of each of these albums?? Are these the same thing as the SACD;s or Something else?? I looked on the back all it said was DTS but it was a 5.1 disk?? Are these just DTS CD's??

OT, slightly - picked up the live in Rome, doesn't seem so bad. At least Phil can sing still...

Where are you guys ordering your SACDs from (in North America) - I went with CD Universe for my first set, but they were unable to get the second one at a reasonable price, so picked it up from Acoustic Sounds... Meanwhile, neither of them have preorders available.

Man, I just want this already... so sick of waiting. :)

Phil can definately still sing. Although I was not thrilled by the tour setlist last year (would have dropped things like We Can't Dance for anything pre-1977) i was really impressed by the musicianship and Phil's voice.

I bought both sets from elusive disc, but only after the prices stabilized.

Hi, I was looking for the SACD's at Best Buy they did have them but must of sold out. I then went to the CD section and saw in the Genesis section, CD/DVD's of each of these albums?? Are these the same thing as the SACD;s or Something else?? I looked on the back all it said was DTS but it was a 5.1 disk?? Are these just DTS CD's??

They are something else. The American released version. If you want the sacd's you have to get the import. However, if you do that, make sure you get an import that includes the NTCS disks. A lot of the pressing included PAL.
Joe

I ordered mine from jpc (in Germany) shipped to Canada--came to 145$ US with shipping included. Arrived in under a week. No import duties or taxes.

cool, but was wondering about preorder for the -new- set...

Forgive this mildly further OT remark - I finally got my hands on a copy from a friend of the Tommy DVD-A. I have owned the SACDs since release, the DVD-A actually came out a few months later, and included video extras not on the SACD (obviously...)

Just watched the engaging interview with Pete, it runs about 30 minutes, and even includes footage in his studio demonstrating isolated tracks at his mixing board. He's running on a twin monitor mac (Logic, I think... certainly doesn't look like Protools). Delicious.

Anyway, it just makes me super, super sad as he's talking about this being the first of his 5.1 mixes, talking of how Quadrophenia was originally written to be in quad... all in 2003. The fact that these formats never really went anywhere remains pretty miserable, so these little glimmers of light like the completion of the Genesis set are certainly cause for celebration.

So, anybody have the Quad version of Quadrophenia? PM! :)

I ordered the middle boxset from HMV in Japan (I can look up the website later when at home). It was a good price (pre-order) and it was SACD with NTSC DVD. I bought "Genesis" of of Ebay with SACD, but the DVD was PAL. Oh well. I was happy with the service of HMV. I wasn't the first one to get the boxset, but it came within 3 days of the release date (Friday). I definitely will be ordering from there again.

What a fantastic set this will be! Keeping my fingers crossed on the sound quality (and mix).

Some of the extras will possibly obsolete DVD-r videos I have collected over the years. I wonder if they are lower generation sources. I am particularly intrigued by the inclusion of the Shepperton footage. I wonder if this will improve upon the 16mm copy that surfaced a few years ago (itself a significant improvement to the version that preceded it on the trading circuit).

What a fantastic set this will be! Keeping my fingers crossed on the sound quality (and mix).

Some of the extras will possibly obsolete DVD-r videos I have collected over the years. I wonder if they are lower generation sources. I am particularly intrigued by the inclusion of the Shepperton footage. I wonder if this will improve upon the 16mm copy that surfaced a few years ago (itself a significant improvement to the version that preceded it on the trading circuit).

I am really looking forward to this set, particularly since I seem the have the magic combination of a great sound system and tin ears :rolleyes:

As a long, long-time fan I am happy to see things like the Jackson Tapes and remixes of early show staples like Twilight Alehouse, but it is too bad that they couldn't have included some live recordings that remain unreleased to this day (such as a FULL version of Rinbow '73). Ah well, can't be greedy .....

The difference is that these Genesis SACD's do NOT stand up to blind testing.
This thread should close until the Peter Gabriel ones come out.


Sigh! Always someone who manages to completely miss the point.

Go back to post 229 (a retort to your "tin ears") from over a year ago:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10572836#post10572836

Talk about missing the point.

The general sense, from those few who have tried it, is that converting DSD to PCM in the Oppo and then sending the latter over HDMI is superior to the analog connections The HDMI connection is the preferred way either sending DSD [like I do] or converted PCM over the analogs no doubt.

I think you'll hear quite a bit of difference. As I said above several times, making it sound -different- is easy... It's when you get into whether that difference is -better- that the argument comes up...:)

Let me know what you find out, and try to allow mentally for a $150 player to sound -better- than your $4000+ Ayre beast... :)


Right, let's not kid ourselves. :D

They are something else. The American released version. If you want the sacd's you have to get the import. However, if you do that, make sure you get an import that includes the NTCS disks. A lot of the pressing included PAL.
Joe Or get the Oppo it plays Pal just fine. :D

I was going to do an elaborate comparison of my originals vs the SACD/CD 2 channel, SACD MCH vs DVD DTS 96/24 MCH of all the albums in the 76-82 box set, but, in the end, it wasn't necessary to do all that for me to reach my conclusion (plus it proved far too big an undertaking). After having gone through most of the collection now, mostly in MCH but a bit in 2 channel, my opinion might seem wishy-washy, but there it is:

I'm disappointed in the SQ of the SACD compared to some stellar titles in my collection from the same era (to keep it fair). It is not "unlistenable", as some have suggested (at least not to me) but I won't be pulling these discs out to "show off" my system for sound quality.

My disappointment is mitigated to a significant degree by the MCH mixes. I got the sets for the MCH and I'm generally happy (I might have made one or two different mixing choices, but overall, I'm pleased).

My tolerance for the less than stellar SQ is partially owing to the fact that I don't generally listen to my music at very loud levels. I did push the discs (in 2 ch, MCH and in DTS) to levels higher than what I normally listen to and if I were usually at that level, my disappointment with the SQ would be more severe (so I understand the gripes of those who like to "play loud"). My normal level, by the way, is (using an analogue RS SPL C-weighted, slow response) about 85dB average peak at the listening chair. I did find the DTS more forgiving of higher volumes, though it did not have as much detail as the SACD (most easily noted in the vocal tracks--and no, I'm not counting sibilance as extra "detail" but rather intelligibility of lyrics). The DTS was not as "hot" in the upper frequencies, though, so some might find it a better option. Just a thought.

I find the 2 ch re-mixes to be fine--noticeable but subtle enough that I don't cringe. I would not have repurchased all the discs just for the 2 ch re-mixes though. Overall, I'm fairly neutral about them.

So, overall grade B (on the strength of the MCH mixes--on SQ alone, it would be a C).

fair and reasonable, Ovation me boy.

Yet, I've yet to hear from a single one of you (fellow) nutters about a legit pre-order for this set. We better damn well be getting these in a few months, else I'm going ape-$hit already...

I suck at waiting...:(

ps. While my Oppo -does- do Pal, I like the future-proof, play-on-any-North American-player fun of the NTSC version.

I was going to do an elaborate comparison of my originals vs the SACD/CD 2 channel, SACD MCH vs DVD DTS 96/24 MCH of all the albums in the 76-82 box set, but, in the end, it wasn't necessary to do all that for me to reach my conclusion (plus it proved far too big an undertaking). After having gone through most of the collection now, mostly in MCH but a bit in 2 channel, my opinion might seem wishy-washy, but there it is:

I'm disappointed in the SQ of the SACD compared to some stellar titles in my collection from the same era (to keep it fair). It is not "unlistenable", as some have suggested (at least not to me) but I won't be pulling these discs out to "show off" my system for sound quality.

My disappointment is mitigated to a significant degree by the MCH mixes. I got the sets for the MCH and I'm generally happy (I might have made one or two different mixing choices, but overall, I'm pleased).

My tolerance for the less than stellar SQ is partially owing to the fact that I don't generally listen to my music at very loud levels. I did push the discs (in 2 ch, MCH and in DTS) to levels higher than what I normally listen to and if I were usually at that level, my disappointment with the SQ would be more severe (so I understand the gripes of those who like to "play loud"). My normal level, by the way, is (using an analogue RS SPL C-weighted, slow response) about 85dB average peak at the listening chair. I did find the DTS more forgiving of higher volumes, though it did not have as much detail as the SACD (most easily noted in the vocal tracks--and no, I'm not counting sibilance as extra "detail" but rather intelligibility of lyrics). The DTS was not as "hot" in the upper frequencies, though, so some might find it a better option. Just a thought.

I find the 2 ch re-mixes to be fine--noticeable but subtle enough that I don't cringe. I would not have repurchased all the discs just for the 2 ch re-mixes though. Overall, I'm fairly neutral about them.

So, overall grade B (on the strength of the MCH mixes--on SQ alone, it would be a C).

nicely put...a C still sucks around here where everyone is looking for A+ grades !

Go back to post 229 (a retort to your "tin ears") from over a year ago:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10572836#post10572836

Talk about missing the point.

Forgive me if I don't spend my valuable spare time plotting waveforms or trolling through years of AVS posts - I actually try to listen to my music collection.

I plan to purchase any enjoy the third set, 'nuff said!

Have these SACDs been released or are they just Pre order only? If pre order when is the official release date?

Two of the sets have been released. The third (and most anticpated) is a pre-order and will be released in September - don't know the actual date.

Two of the sets have been released. The third (and most anticpated) is a pre-order and will be released in September - don't know the actual date.
So, all the seperate cd's Lamb, selling England etc, will also be released in Sept. I placed an order with DVD4music, out of the UK. It does not say when they will be released.

So, all the seperate cd's Lamb, selling England etc, will also be released in Sept. I placed an order with DVD4music, out of the UK. It does not say when they will be released.

Make that October. Delayed again, what a shocker! This set must have set a new world's record for delays. Sheesh!

You just ruined my day.

Make that 5 years, 1 month delayed.

You just ruined my day.

Make that 5 years, 1 month delayed.

Sorry! BTW, if you haven't already done it, go check out wolfgang's vault. They have the original 'buscuit recording of the Lamb from the LA Shrine. This is the same show that was used for Archive 1, but without any overdubs and including IT, Watcher and Musical Box. Even though bit-constrained, this is a great sounding show.

Gabriel SACD set is now available for pre-order from Amazon (US site) for a pretty reasonable price - although they have two listings, both of which say SACD at quite different prices. Interestingly, the release date is Sept 30th. Certainly not set in stone as in neither of the previous sets I bought on 'zon had release dates even close to being accurate.

See the prices for the individual releases? Holy crap they're expensive - $45.98 a pop.

two EMI international imports, $100 price between them, but no indication if it's NTSC or not... Yeah, I could buy/play region 2, but it'd be nice to have it Region 1, the same as my other sets.

Can't believe these are finally (maybe, almost) coming! :)

btw, azn.ca is actually -cheaper- (for the first time in history) than .com... There's still the question of tax, but, well, there you go.

I'm still thinking there's no way that this lower-priced box is the SACD version, but I preordered nonetheless...:)

Oddly blast buy shows it twice also. 139 and 329! Says "PAL" in there, (0) and not a lot else. Individuals for 39.

The azn listing says 7 discs but each is a 2 disc like before right? I'm assuming the lower price point is just a cd and a dvd and the higher priced set is the hybrid SACD and the DVD but I could be wrong. There is video footage on the track listings and I highly doubt they'll release a version without it. The prior releases included no SACD only versions that I'm aware of either. BUT, I could be totally wrong. For a list of 39 individual it sure better have SACD tracks included. Ouch! They know they've got us with this set....

I'm still thinking there's no way that this lower-priced box is the SACD version, but I preordered nonetheless...:)

Clearly says SACD, so what the heck. If its a mistake they will have to horor the price and if they play the 'delay into perpetuity' game you can always cancel.

The azn listing says 7 discs but each is a 2 disc like before right? I'm assuming the lower price point is just a cd and a dvd and the higher priced set is the hybrid SACD and the DVD but I could be wrong. There is video footage on the track listings and I highly doubt they'll release a version without it. The prior releases included no SACD only versions that I'm aware of either. BUT, I could be totally wrong. For a list of 39 individual it sure better have SACD tracks included. Ouch! They know they've got us with this set....

It will be the same as the previous sets, 2 discs per album plus 2 bonus (12 in total). I believe Lamb is on 2 discs, not 4, but I could be wrong. There will be combinations of CD, SACD, NTSC DVD and PAL DVD as before.

It will be the same as the previous sets, 2 discs per album plus 2 bonus (12 in total). I believe Lamb is on 2 discs, not 4, but I could be wrong. There will be combinations of CD, SACD, NTSC DVD and PAL DVD as before.

wouldnt Lamb be on 3 discs two for the CD/SACD becuase its just too long for one disc, and one for the DVD

more amusingly, it does kinda look like they're in digipack booklets as opposed to cases. That's be nice.

I just pre-ordered mine from HMV in Japan because I got the right formats (SACD/DVD-NTSC) from them on the first box set. Plus, they gave me %25 off when I ordered two other SACD. I don't know exactly what the exchange rate is but this box set seems to be about $100 more than the first one. If it has the sound I want, then it is worth. Now I just have to twiddle my humbs for the next 6 weeks.

more amusingly, it does kinda look like they're in digipack booklets as opposed to cases. That's be nice.

I suppose I must have too much time on my hands ...... but looking at the 'zon photo, Lamb looks to be in a digi-pak while the remaining four albums are intraditional plastic cd cases. Perhaps Lamb is more than 2 discs after all?

Will find out in a couple of months!

I just pre-ordered mine from HMV in Japan because I got the right formats (SACD/DVD-NTSC) from them on the first box set. Plus, they gave me %25 off when I ordered two other SACD. I don't know exactly what the exchange rate is but this box set seems to be about $100 more than the first one. If it has the sound I want, then it is worth. Now I just have to twiddle my humbs for the next 6 weeks.

You got this one?
http://rover.ebay.com/ar/1/711-53200-19255-0/1?mpt=1999352279&adtype=1&size=1x1&type=3&campid=5336055023&toolid=10001 http://www.amazon.co.jp/Genesis-1970-1975/dp/B00104WHLA (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.co.jp%2FGenesis-1970-1975%2Fdp%2FB00104WHLA%2Fref%3Dsr_1_1%3Fie%3DUTF8%26amp%3Bs% 3Dmusic%26amp%3Bqid%3D1219357720%26amp%3Bsr%3D8-1&tag=5336055023-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325)

Not to discuss pricing or anything, but I'm amused by the "Import from US", the one place that we know for sure no SACDs will originate from...http://rover.ebay.com/ar/1/711-53200-19255-0/1?mpt=%5BCacheBuster%5D&adtype=1&size=1x1&type=1&campid=5336055023&toolid=10001&customid=

For the record, we're talking (in .JP, .COM, and .CA) about these two ASIN codes:

B00104WHLA (cheaper by $100 or so)
and B001CBW1B2 (=likely= to be the one we want, based on previous pricings...Part of me wants to pre-order both!)

ah, what the hell...got a call in now to see if they can dig in some info...

As expected, they've got the info we've got - I've launched a formal ticket looking into the issue, determining just what's what, so I'll let y'all know...

Considering that the only people that will ever buy this thing are in this thread, the least we can do is keep each other company/informed... :)

^^^
Since dgotwals1 mentioned HMV Japan as his source, I'm guessing he preordered this one:
http://www.hmv.co.jp/product/detail/2761040
This one says it's a European import. Still a lot to shake out...

oh, I'm an idiot.. HMV.ca used to =be= Amazon.com, so I read the one as the other...

Worth a chance. I've gone ahead and pre-ordered.

Worth a chance. I've gone ahead and pre-ordered.

Do you mean the less expensive link on Amazon?

I took a chance but am not expecting much (most likely will get the CD + DVD and not the SACD hybrid). But the customer service is so good with Amazon that is worth the slim chance.

I took a chance but am not expecting much (most likely will get the CD + DVD and not the SACD hybrid). But the customer service is so good with Amazon that is worth the slim chance.

I pre-ordered this one also and my order summary clearly says SACD. Seems, if it is a mistake, 'Zon will have to honor - although they certainly could delay and delay to the point that I end up ordering elsewhere.

Well, this is absolutely PATHETIC, but the set has been delayed again! How many times now? I guess I've lost count - they really can't seem to get out of their own way on this.

Now is Nov 10th, 2008.

oh, shuttup... :( i didn't even notice...

sigh...

If I buy the SACD package, will I be limited to playing the disks on my universal player?

Would I be able to extract wav files from the CD layer of the new mixes onto my HDD to (for example) make compilation playlists, put on my Ipod, or burn CD-R's that will play in my car?

I have been assuming without much thought all along that I would buy the SACD version of this boxset; but now that I need to confront the reality of it, I realize I need to consider what limitations the SACD boxset might leave me with.

I don't own any SACDs and I am not quite sure how limiting the medium is; at least the hybrid forms that these are.

Edited to add one more question--can the disks be backed up in their entirety onto a HDD to be remade if one develops faults (I think I know the answer to this one)?