Has this been discussed here? Finally looks like PS audio made a more efficent product. That has been my hang-up with th previous units. Perhaps power conditioning and surge protect are not something that many need? I really do in the post-Katrina New Orleans area. Sometimes when I go into my theater and look at the voltage meter, the damn needle is just pulsing by 5 watts back and forth! One of my Martin Logans subs would cycle to this and create a weird hum. Any one tried the new PS Audio? http://www.psaudio.com/products/premier_power_plant.asp Back http://gon8.audiogon.com/i/c/f/1161737853.jpg

I've got one ordered but it won't be here till December or early Jan. Seems like they're including a new filter: http://www.psaudio.com/newsletters/10-06.asp First shipments are due sometime this month.

Well they have delayed shipping of it because they suddenly invented a new filter they wanted to put in it. If you follow any of the threads in the PSAudio forums they have been talking about it.

Second if you also follow any of the threads in the forums they have you will see them deny any kind of warrenty or repair on PSAudio gear and your own gear if there is any power surges, lightning strikes etc... Most companies that offer "surge suppresion" will deny claims on the units. Even though PSAudio is full of great advertising on the website saying they fully protect you, I have read the threads of them where they deny service.

Third if you look at the amount of wattage these units service it doesnt come up to much, a couple of components and you have used up all the power on them. Just do the math of your gear and see how much it really can hold.

Fourth if you know the company has known issues in the first place with other things they sell, then why go to them?

Also ask them for specs on any of the products they sell.

The only real solution for you is whole house units. Chu who posts here can fill you in on those.

The new power plant outputs up to 1500 watts. As for lightening strikes, I know of nothing that would protect you if your house took a direct hit.

PS Audio is very customer oriented and helpful if there is a problem with their gear.

As for "known issues" I'm not quite sure what you mean speco2003.

Steve

Speco2003, for what it's worth I've received terrific customer service from PS Audio over the last four years. There are many companies I'm leary of doing business with, but PS Audio isn't among them.

Surge protection is a separate issue for me. I am planning on whole house protection. Electricians are backed up for months in this area. Hey, I like my toys but I just can not get myself to divert an electrician from someone trying to get power back into their homes after the hurricane. I spoke with one of my co-workers and he says he has been trying to get power restored for 3 months. If your house was under water, mine got none, you have to have the entire house re-wired before you can get power restored. So a Ps audio unit would be something that could give me stable voltage and help for now. The summer thunder storms are months away now.

Bulldogger, I will be getting one as soon as they come out - I get dealer pricing due to my AVS review being used back on the first Stereophile ad for the P300. Talk to me then and I will let you know whether I will keep it and sell one or both of my P600s.

The new power plant outputs up to 1500 watts. As for lightening strikes, I know of nothing that would protect you if your house took a direct hit.

PS Audio is very customer oriented and helpful if there is a problem with their gear.

As for "known issues" I'm not quite sure what you mean speco2003.

Steve


Your right about the nothing really protecting spikes, yet on psaudios very own website they say the ones they sell do. Some of the people who bought units from them had strikes hit and PS denied service. If you wish me to link to the false advertising on their site I will as well as the PSAudio forums where numerous customers have had issues that cant seem to be resolved.

Paul Mcgowan repeatadly makes outrageous claims yet when pressed for real data he wont produce it only a trust me its true answer. Anybody else see a problem here? Keep in mind Paul is not an engineer he is a DJ.

...look at the voltage meter, the damn needle is just pulsing by 5 watts back and forth

Maybe you're not reading it correctly ;)

I feel that Paul McGowan and PS Audio are honest and do not make false claims about their products. After looking at customer repsonses on PS Audio's site and Audio Asylum, I just don't see a multitude of complaints.

Speco2003, I respect your feelings toward PS Audio. I just feel that they are in the minority. Given the success of their products, they must be doing something right for most of us.

By the way, I have two of the new Premier Power Plants on order.

Steve

I feel that Paul McGowan and PS Audio are honest and do not make false claims about their products.

You're entitled to an opinion.

By the way, I have two of the new Premier Power Plants on order.

Which is obviously biased.

I'm biased, too, as I have had two P600 power regenerators for years and luv them. Oh well.

...yeah, but, your opinion doesn't hold much weight around here....did you have a point to make?

...yeah, but, your opinion doesn't hold much weight around here....did you have a point to make?

If I could make two cents for everyone who valued your opinion, I'd make ten cents.

...yeah, but, your opinion doesn't hold much weight around here....did you have a point to make?

Your opinion holds no weight around here.

Folks:
If you do a search on threads regarding PS Audio power products, its clear that Speco2003 and Targus is heavily biased against the company for whatever reason.

Just ignore them and listen to those who have actually had PS Audio products.

I have PS Audio products and my experience is they offer top notch customer service. I have the Lambda transport from 15 years ago and the tray mechanism is falling apart. Even though that product is discontinued and obviously out of warranty for a good 10 years, they still provide help and suggestions when it comes to servicing the unit.

This claim from their site turns me right off.

Lowers distortion by 10 times

I call BS on that one.

As for the 'protection' that the device offers, I can tell you this:

a) Too many power bar companies (the expensive and the $10 kind) claim full protection of a product when plugged in. Truth is, how the heck can you then tell if a failure of a piece of equipment failed due to an age or power related problem? eg:

"I had a party last night, turned the volume to 11, at 1:30 AM the amp crapped out"

Should the power bar/regenerator have protected the amp? How is a tech to prove or disprove the amp failure was or was not due to the surge protection?

b) In theory, a dedicated independent power supply. AC or DC that's properly designed will supply 'cleaner' power than plugging something into a regular AC outlet that has a lot of other things plugged into it. OTOH, the power supplies of all electronic equipment is so well filtered that you'd never see the difference IMHO.

c) If some heavy duty spike like lightning hit a typical house, guaranteed that NOTHING in the house would be spared. Everything would get damaged that was plugged in, as lighning can jump over switch contacts of devices that are turned off. Wanna bet that PS Audio would deny a warranty claim to one of their devices that was hit by lightning?

d) Lowers distortion by 10 X? Give me a break!!! I'd like proof of that in person.

Super, now I have someone else to sneer at at CES this year...:)

I just perused their site a bit further. Here's another wonderful piece guaranteed not to do anything:

http://www.psaudio.com/products/noiseharvester.asp

Funny, this unit runs at a frequency 10 X lower than anything else. they really seem to like the 10X claim.

So I claim the PS Audio site has 10 X more BS on it than other sites.

Thanks for the info Curt. Given that the Premier Power Plant is back ordered, your comments may free up orders so that I can get mine sooner.

Best Wishes,

Steve

I swear in my next life I'll come back as an elderly gentleman, I'll study proper English thoroughly, speak with an accent, throw around $10 descriptive words like candy, start a high end A/V accessories company and make a great living raping the heck out of some of you.

I just can't do it in this life... :p

I just perused their site a bit further. Here's another wonderful piece guaranteed not to do anything:

http://www.psaudio.com/products/noiseharvester.asp

Funny, this unit runs at a frequency 10 X lower than anything else. they really seem to like the 10X claim.

So I claim the PS Audio site has 10 X more BS on it than other sites.

Ahhh Curt you missed a whole thread on that one. I even bought one, did acoustic and electrical tests with it and it did nothing. It has a couple of film capacitors in it that we found cost 15 cents from neumark. If you notice thet have a film on the website about it. Yet never show any real tests with it. In one they show how noisy a dimmer is with a noise sniffer, then they put the NH on it and say see how it works, but they didnt put the noise sniffer back up to show if it really does.

Well we did real tests with it using some noisey ACand put a cope to it and in fact nothing changed one wit. The EE that took it apart with me explained that all the was going is that the caps would fill up and light the light.

Sold mine on Ebay.
In the pic you can see the 4 15 cent caps, thats not a lie, pull the numbers off them and check. Under the glob of glue is a couple of resistors, nothing more.
The second pic shows they use tabs to hold the lid on NOT GLUE,one tab by the light one down the center side.

Speco, stop exposing the magic smoke!

:)

You also forgot about one vital part: the current limiting resistor for the blue LED. Oh, and the electrolytic cap that smooths out the 60 Hz going to the LED, so it doesn't flicker. Geez, if PS would have been smart, they'd save the money and let the LED flicker. They could then claim that the flickering was the filters actively working, taking the interference out of the line and transferring it to the LED. Maybe I could teach their engineers, err, I mean ad copy guys a thing or two...

Splaskin, what do you say about THIS product now? Anyone here ever use one of those? What did it do for you?

Speco, stop exposing the magic smoke!

:)

You also forgot about one vital part: the current limiting resistor for the blue LED. Oh, and the electrolytic cap that smooths out the 60 Hz going to the LED, so it doesn't flicker. Geez, if PS would have been smart, they'd save the money and let the LED flicker. They could then claim that the flickering was the filters actively working, taking the interference out of the line and transferring it to the LED. Maybe I could teach their engineers, err, I mean ad copy guys a thing or two...

Splaskin, what do you say about THIS product now? Anyone here ever use one of those? What did it do for you?

And I should add Curt I did not buy this to use. I bought it to perform the tests on, because I am sick of bogus claims by companies.

The audio tests were performed on a Meyer HD-1 with SMAART. People said they hear better highs or better los, if that was the case we should see a boost or a cut in the freqs, bbbuuuutttttt guess what? NOTHING changed.

Here is a post today from PSAudios forum.

Quote" Author
Topic: Harvesters dead?

Patrick821

Total Posts: 18

Member Since:



View My System posted 11/9/2006 12:42:46 AM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I plugged one in into my JuiceBar and nothing happened for many minutes, then I plugged in the rest and only two were blinking. Those two were blinking every 3-6 seconds for 5 hours, but then they weren't blinking anymore, they are all dead now.

After I got the Harvesters I tried one on the output of the Power Plant and using Clean Sweep made it blink. But now none of the 5 Harvesters blink when I try the Clean Sweep. What is wrong?

I'm in Sweden with a 230volt line, don't Harvesters work good with it?

I didn't know these would fail that easily so I bought them from Audiogon, I guess the warranty doesn't apply then? How do I repair them?

barrows

Total Posts: 186

Member Since:
April 2005


View My System posted 11/9/2006 9:16:00 AM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi,

Noise Harvesters will not always blink, as they only blink if they are encountering a certain level of noise on the ac line. The best way to test them is to plug them into an outlet with a vacuum cleaner. When you turn on the vacuum cleaner they should definately blink rapidly, if they do not, then there is a problem.
If you did not purchase these through your authorized distributor, you would not have any warranty, but you might try contacting the sellor. "

Heehee, ask PS Audio what Meyer HD1s are along with SMAART, and I'll bet they'll say they are some offshore knockoff brands...;)

Heehee, ask PS Audio what Meyer HD1s are along with SMAART, and I'll bet they'll say they are some offshore knockoff brands...;)


Close they had never heard of SMAART or SIM, and responded with mmmm that mihgt be useful. We video taped the tests they saw them and said well its obvious that something like smaart couldnt pickup the small subtle changes the NH provides. yest by all accounts the changes are not subtle you know boomier bass etc..

keep in mind Paul is not an engineer just a DJ.

hydrogenaudio thread on power conditioners -- including PS Audio

http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=49459

keep in mind Paul is not an engineer just a DJ.

'Nuff said.

'Nuff said.

Does anyone here know John Gannon???

John is a well known ISFer/installer out of Michigan. He once was technical editor for Stereophile Guide to Home Theater. He has been a contributor to The Perfect Vision. Certainly he's on the short list of 5 - 10 best CRT calibrators/setup in the U.S.

Go back to 2000. When John initially setup my Dwin HD-700 CRT projector.
When he replaced the red and green lens with color filtered ones. When he compared my picture using the PS Audio P600, set at 60 Hz sine wave, vs
set at Square Wave, and agreed the Square Wave picture was better.

Yea, it must have been the Thai food and beer. What can I say?

You also forgot about one vital part: the current limiting resistor for the blue LED. Oh, and the electrolytic cap that smooths out the 60 Hz going to the LED, so it doesn't flicker. Geez, if PS would have been smart, they'd save the money and let the LED flicker. They could then claim that the flickering was the filters actively working, taking the interference out of the line and transferring it to the LED. Maybe I could teach their engineers, err, I mean ad copy guys a thing or two...Umm, your last 2 sentences are what they actually claim (not the 1st two). Their ad guys definitely have it together!

I stand corrected. They do. The DJ engineer must have designed it for the ravers in mind...

Steve, I can almost understand why a square wave would make a projector look better. A square wave contains more RMS power than a sine wave, so while the power supply in the DWIN converts everything to DC within the PS before using it's own internal switching oscillator to generate the voltages in the set ( any SMPS is therefore a regulated power regenerator in it's own right), the fact that you're inputting a square wave means that the resulting DC power within the projector is at a slightly higher voltage than if you drive the AC input with a sine wave. That would mean there's more potential energy in the internal filter caps which _MIGHT_ make the set run a bit more efficiently.

Unless I see and measure the setup however, the resulting higher voltage might strain your electrolytic caps within the DWIN power supply and it might die a premature death.

So once again, there's a reasonable explanation for what you might have observed. There's still way too much hocus pocus in the PS audio website for me to buy into it.

BTW, I repaired a PS audio piece a while back. The construction was unremarkable, average at best. For construction quality, give me a Levinson.

Steve, I can almost understand why a square wave would make a projector look better. A square wave contains more RMS power than a sine wave, so while the power supply in the DWIN converts everything to DC within the PS before using it's own internal switching oscillator to generate the voltages in the set ( any SMPS is therefore a regulated power regenerator in it's own right), the fact that you're inputting a square wave means that the resulting DC power within the projector is at a slightly higher voltage than if you drive the AC input with a sine wave. That would mean there's more potential energy in the internal filter caps which _MIGHT_ make the set run a bit more efficiently.

Unless I see and measure the setup however, the resulting higher voltage might strain your electrolytic caps within the DWIN power supply and it might die a premature death.

So once again, there's a reasonable explanation for what you might have observed. There's still way too much hocus pocus in the PS audio website for me to buy into it.

BTW, I repaired a PS audio piece a while back. The construction was unremarkable, average at best. For construction quality, give me a Levinson.


Curt, I'm only attesting to the PS Audio P600s that I have. I can also attest to their Power Port outlets. Haven't tried their other products.

I've had my Dwin CRT for 6 years and more than 10,000 hours. No one problem
CAP that!!! H!

The P600 is a well constructive piece with plenty of mass!! The P300 was a pipsqueak in comparison.

One of these fine days when Tim finished his kitchen I'm coming down with steak. Any chance of you going to CES?

One of these fine days when Tim finished his kitchen I'm coming down with steak. Any chance of you going to CES?

When you come to see Tim come visit me, too as I'm nearby.

We have great steak and even better Thai. You can get what Gannon calls the best Thai food he's ever had!!!@@@ I'm equal opportunity - you can pooh pooh some of my tweaks and still be my friend.

Remember, Mike Parker luvs to crap re how I've got a power cord to the projector as thick as a washer hose. But Mike also says he's never seen a Dwin picture look as good as mine, either. HA! :eek:

You missed me back when I attended CES each year. I started the AVS CES party in my Mod days, giving away more than $10K merchandise in door prizes for the first party, informal at Hilton buffet, and the second a formal one then sponsored solely by Stewart at the Sahara. I've missed the last few, been busy between law practice and family obligations. Someday I will make it back - probably not this year.

Well I do know that the stuff coming out of the wall can be "bad" power. I purchased a second Martin Logan Sub to go with the first one. It was only about 2 months old according to Martin Logan from the serial number on it. It had a hum that would cycle on and off. I tried everything to repair. Finally, Martin Logan said send it back and they would replace all of the internal components even though I was the second owner and they do not transfer warranty. Finally go the sub back, plug it in, same exact problem. Martin Logan said that when they got the sub back before replacing the internals, they tested it and found no problems. To be safe, they still replaced everything. By now it was pretty obvious the problem was not the sub. I happen to have a generator.When the tech made an off- hand comment about that, we decided to run the sub off the generator. Tried that and the sub performed perfectly. I had a single five channel digital amp. It too manifest problems because of low line voltage. One call to the power company also at Martin Logans' suggestion, solved that one. I do not think getting them to correct the line surges will be that easy.

Well of course Bulldogger, that's possible. However in your stated case, it was a PROBLEM with the AC line, something that does need to be diagnosed and repaired at the power company/breaker/outlet side. Adding a conditioner or even a regenerator won't necessarily solve the issue.

The catch with many of the problems brought to any of these forums is that it needs to be properly diagnosed. In your case you spent money sending in the sub, were without it for some time, the manufacturer wasted time and money to ensure good customer relations, and in the end your source of the problem had nothing to do with the sub.

I run across scenarios like this daily. As I telll customers all the time, it's easy to sell ice to an eskimo if you are a good sales guy. It's harder to actually build an igloo with that ice when the eskimo asks to have an igloo built. You need to find a builder, you probably need some tools and you need the knowledge to build an igloo that doesn't collapse.

It's then a lot harder still to fix a leaking igloo. You then need a repair specialist with special tools that can replace one ice block without destroying the whole igloo.

It's a crude analogy, but you'd be surprised how many audio sales companies around here do crappy installs, and have no idea how to approach service when something goes wrong.

This claim from their site turns me right off.

Lowers distortion by 10 times

I call BS on that one.

As for the 'protection' that the device offers, I can tell you this:

a) Too many power bar companies (the expensive and the $10 kind) claim full protection of a product when plugged in. Truth is, how the heck can you then tell if a failure of a piece of equipment failed due to an age or power related problem? eg:

"I had a party last night, turned the volume to 11, at 1:30 AM the amp crapped out"

Should the power bar/regenerator have protected the amp? How is a tech to prove or disprove the amp failure was or was not due to the surge protection?

b) In theory, a dedicated independent power supply. AC or DC that's properly designed will supply 'cleaner' power than plugging something into a regular AC outlet that has a lot of other things plugged into it. OTOH, the power supplies of all electronic equipment is so well filtered that you'd never see the difference IMHO.

c) If some heavy duty spike like lightning hit a typical house, guaranteed that NOTHING in the house would be spared. Everything would get damaged that was plugged in, as lighning can jump over switch contacts of devices that are turned off. Wanna bet that PS Audio would deny a warranty claim to one of their devices that was hit by lightning?

d) Lowers distortion by 10 X? Give me a break!!! I'd like proof of that in person.

Super, now I have someone else to sneer at at CES this year...:)

10x distortion reduction or noise reduction on the AC line is not as drastic as you think. For instance 3 dB of noise reduction on the AC line is a drop in noise power levels by one half. Every 3dB you divide by two. Every increase of 3dB you multiply by two. 10x is not a lot! Any drop in noise on the line will help if the AC line has RF noise on it.


Ron

The problem is, it doesn't reference WHICH distortion it reduces by 10X. It's like saying 3 X more contrast or new and improved.

3X more contrast than ??? and new and improved WHAT?

IM distortion or THD distortion? Distortion of the AC sinewave?

Glad you pointed that out Ronomy. Lots of places play games with percentages and dB's. Unless they specify how they determined that number it could mean more than one thing.

Glad you pointed that out Ronomy. Lots of places play games with percentages and dB's. Unless they specify how they determined that number it could mean more than one thing.

That's marketing for ya! Keeps the average Joe thinking he's got ten times better sound. I like some of the PS Audio products but marketing in most companies will use a smoke screen by not fully explaining numbers and percentages. I'm using there cheaper power cords and the ultimate outlets for surge protection on my amplifiers since they don't limit current. I can hear a difference in my system but it isn't 10X better. Very slightly better. At least i have surge protection for smaller surges and the wiring looks nice. :) I still pull all the plugs on days when Lightning storms are looming. No stopping those surges. In fact I knew a guy that had his house hit with lightning and he had everything unplugged. It hit so hard the lightning arc jump from the wall into his unplugged stereo. His woofers were found popped out of the speaker cabinets and on the floor. This happened over twenty years ago but I remember the story. He wasn't at home when it happened thank God I would have had a heart attack if it hit my house that bad. Granted that isn't going to happen to anyone its just a very extreme case.

Ron

its clear that Speco2003 and Targus is heavily biased against the company for whatever reason.

Just ignore them and listen to those who have actually had PS Audio products.


...like Speco2003?

You expose yourself as an idiot everytime you post, wong....why?

...like Speco2003?

You expose yourself as an idiot everytime you post, wong....why?

Interstate exposing yourself over the web is a crime punishable by five years
having ________ with Monica Lewinsky. And then no percentage when she publishes her book. SAME!

Only an idiot calls someone else an idiot. I didn't call you an idiot. :)

Well of course Bulldogger, that's possible. However in your stated case, it was a PROBLEM with the AC line, something that does need to be diagnosed and repaired at the power company/breaker/outlet side. Adding a conditioner or even a regenerator won't necessarily solve the issue.
.
I believe it will. The power company is telling me that what I am getting now is the best they can do. No one else is complaining. I already proved that if the sub is getting a constant stable power source it will perform perfectly. I think Monster Power made some sort of product that did not regenerate power but keep the line voltage from sagging. I believe this may work as well. Sort of trying to take legal action to force the power company to improve my power, I see no other option but to take matters into my own hands. The rest of my home electronics function fine.

It is always great to read topics like this as like most posts there is always something to learn even if it turns out to be of the humble pie eating nature. I admit to purchasing (on advice...that is my pathetic disclaimer :) ) a power conditioner from an audio market targeted company who operate here in the UK. It was not cheap but unlike any other part in my meagre system (which is yet to be assembled and run) it is the only product that I am not feeling good about.

It was the only piece which I bought in a hurry and while there are "suggested" benefits and reviews etc which are all for this type of product, I can't shake the idea that it is just a pretty box filled with basic, cheap and probably unnecessary witchcraft. I discussed the whole subject with the electrical contractor who installed my dedicated spur for the HT room and while he did not want to comment on the potential benefits of the unit itself he found the idea of multi-hundred pound/dollar power cords a total load. He offered to give me some 10mm core cable and he was pretty sure that if I could get connectors on the end of it and wrapped it in some pretty braided sleeving I would be fine.

I don't know enough about electrical science to say that the unit I have will have no positive effect on my system (I did not audition it which probably further lowers the respect I command here) but the more I read on these and other forums the more I feel stupid about purchasing it. The company who make the unit are well thought of in dealers and magazines etc but I was a little concerned when I was informed that a fuse upgrade was available for my model which turned out to be little more than a £40 "silver" fuse for the plug on the power cord.

I want something between the wall outlet and my gear but right now I think I should have went with a high-current UPS as has been suggested here before.

I did check out the PS Audio website and they do make some claims which even to a relative laymen like me come across as wild nonsensical mumbo jumbo. The company who make my power conditioner use some fancy terms also. I feel something of a fool but don't know enough about the subject to confirm that diagnosis just yet! Perhaps the resident medical professionals can offer their opinion though I should point that we are used to "free" health care here in the UK. Oh wait, the taxes....

...like Speco2003?

You expose yourself as an idiot everytime you post, wong....why?

See Steve's post ? Pls stop posting if you have nothing to say.

It wont win you any medal the way you post/behave. Why be a loser in the society and in a public forum ?

wongmb, I heard a proverb recently that I really liked. "One should never argue with a fool. From a distance, no one can tell which is the fool." Posting on the internet is certainly,"at a distance." I try to keep this in mind now.

wongmb, I heard a proverb recently that I really liked. "One should never argue with a fool. From a distance, no one can tell which is the fool." Posting on the internet is certainly,"at a distance." I try to keep this in mind now.


Wise words Bulldogger and your proverb may explain why I have so few friends. :(

I wonder if there would be any benefit to having these products tested in both terms of their apparent benefits such as listening tests etc but also through a detailed scientific analysis under lab conditions. As has been noted in this thread already, there should be some differences in the condition of the electrical output from one of these devices when compared to not using one at all. Though I will not attempt to specify the nature of the measurements I would have thought that there are numerous values that could be recorded and analysed.

Given that these units are dealing with largely basic electrical mains current I would have thought they could be tested at a serious scientific level much easier than say interconnects or other esoteric products. Of course it could be stated that the same rules apply to all components of this nature (Ohms law etc) but if for example you wanted to test if the power coming from a conditioner (aside from obviously being more shiny and manageable) was in fact more stable then wouldn't this not be fairly easy to assess and demonstrate under lab conditions?

Maybe this is too simplistic an idea and would only further cloud the issue.

No it's nto too simplistic: it's not rocket science, and if PS Audio (which sometimes appears to claim that even IT doesn't know why its products 'work', they just do!) is proposing some new scientific phenomenon, it shoudl be the one providing scientific proof.

We do have someone here who took a PS Audio product apart, and measured its performance, and concluded that it's snake oil.

What we do know is that a fool and his money are soon parted. A smart huckster will learn how to get that fool to part with his money again and again.

No it's nto too simplistic: it's not rocket science, and if PS Audio (which sometimes appears to claim that even IT doesn't know why its products 'work', they just do!) is proposing some new scientific phenomenon, it shoudl be the one providing scientific proof.

We do have someone here who took a PS Audio product apart, and measured its performance, and concluded that it's snake oil.

What we do know is that a fool and his money are soon parted. A smart huckster will learn how to get that fool to part with his money again and again.

What was taken apart? That new device they have that converts RF to light? I'm skeptical about that one. Seems far fetched and that would be hard to measure since you would need an RF tight screen room that is filtered to measure it. The Ultimate outlets will help reduce common mode noise by up to 40dB if used correctly and that isn't rocket science. Any engineer knows how a Balun works. Line filters in power strips don't do much. Filters really need to be in the product chassis itself that its filtering because they need to be shielded to be most effective. You need some bulky inductors to really attenuate down into the low frequencies and none of them work in the audio band. These filters only reduce RF. It could help reduce jitter in the digital circuits and maybe help reduce noise amplified by high bandwidth amplifiers that have very little roll off and fast transistors. Even then you would need to be in a very noisy RF environment. The only reason I use the Ultimate outlets is for the surge protection and I don't have one but the power regenerators would be great since they almost eliminate the audio band noise. I could care less about the other products.

Still I'm interested what was taken apart?

Ron

I believe it will. The power company is telling me that what I am getting now is the best they can do. No one else is complaining. I already proved that if the sub is getting a constant stable power source it will perform perfectly. I think Monster Power made some sort of product that did not regenerate power but keep the line voltage from sagging. I believe this may work as well. Sort of trying to take legal action to force the power company to improve my power, I see no other option but to take matters into my own hands. The rest of my home electronics function fine.

Well what is the voltage at the outlet? It should be no less than 110v and no more than 125v at any time. Not drops to high 90 volts are commen on extremely hot days but fortunatly that's somewhat rare.

The problem may not be the utility but rather a problem in your house electrical system. You could have a circuit breaket that has developed a high resistance contact. I would call a licensed electrician to measure the voltage at the outlet and at the main breaker. If the incomming voltage is indeed below spec, the licensed electrician is in a much better position to take exception with the power comapny. He may even know who to call to get some action.

Surely a <$100 service call is better than spending thousands on a power conditioner that may not even fix the problem. Yes you can increase the voltage with a transformer and that's what some of these higher end power conditioners do. But I would make sure the house system is up to spec first.

I have been looking at an alternative to using the audiophile power products. As someone suggested earlier I have been looking at the APC website and their range of UPS products. I am not sure of the possible benefits or downsides of using a battery UPS with an HT system but one of the products in their range offers similar power output to that of my Isotek and features what would appear to be everything that a power conditioner should. The unit in question is the APC SU5000I on the UK site (for link see my post below)

It is more expensive than the Isotek I have but it does offer more outlets and of course has the UPS ability though I am not sure if this has any use within HT or not since it would only offer a few minutes of battery. This would be better than nothing I suppose in the event of a power outage. It is a whole load heavier than the Isotek unit given that it comes in at 95kg and since the battery only accounts for approximately 20kg of this there must be some considerable transformers(?) inside.

One thing that struck me is the amount of information available in the specification and there seems to be a decent amount of detail about the units performance without too much vague terminology. It is not a pretty looking thing and the onboard fan might make it hard to place within the listening area (perhaps it could put in a closet somewhere).

It could be that this type of product is not suitable for audio/video. Does anyone have any experience with this type of device within an HT system? Would it or similar provide a viable alternative to an audio market power product?

Now that I have 5 posts I can post URL links!! Below is the link to the APC product I am talking about in my post above;

http://www.apc.com/resource/include/techspec_index.cfm?base_sku=SU5000I&total_watts=50

Regards,

Sean

I'm not so sure how their Ultimate Outlets deal with surges Ronomy since they provide no information but a whole lot of speculation. For example, what's the let through voltage? What kind of surges do they address? Their definition or something more rigorous? I'd be looking into a whole house setup and then maybe those Ultimate Outlets can do whatever it is they do.

What was taken apart? That new device they have that converts RF to light? I'm skeptical about that one. Seems far fetched and that would be hard to measure since you would need an RF tight screen room that is filtered to measure it.


Yes, that's the one, and it was 'exposed' by our own speco2003, who gives PS Audio nightmares and wongmb heartburn. ;>

I'm not so sure how their Ultimate Outlets deal with surges Ronomy since they provide no information but a whole lot of speculation. For example, what's the let through voltage? What kind of surges do they address? Their definition or something more rigorous? I'd be looking into a whole house setup and then maybe those Ultimate Outlets can do whatever it is they do.

Its on there website. They use tranzorbs for instantaneous surge surpression and then MOV's for the larger spikes. I have not tested the Ultimate outlet but I have used tranzorbs in designs and they have very fast clamping characteristics. I have another surge surpression device that uses other AC line filtering that I don't use on my system but I have tested it with 4000 volt spikes at the three phase angles +/- surges and I could not see any let through. MOV's alone will let through some of the surge. I was using the IEC/EN required surges for Europe

You guys are right they should give more info about the design and what levels and ramp/decay values of surge they would clamp. Typical surge devices are tested to IEC61000-4-5 that are 1.2/50 microsecond surges but those are just typical surges. Under the ITU spec's and tests required for direct connection to outside telephone lines there are requirements for 10/1000 microsecond surges at 100 amps at up to 5000 volts. The transorbs will help with the lower voltage surges that we see everyday that can also harm electronics over time. The Ultimate outlet is good for these and maybe one or two big surges and then they would be fried. They are not for a large system. One or two components on each one is all I use them for.

Ron

Now that I have 5 posts I can post URL links!! Below is the link to the APC product I am talking about in my post above;

http://www.apc.com/resource/include/techspec_index.cfm?base_sku=SU5000I&total_watts=50

Regards,

Sean

I wouldn't use a UPS since they are just switching power supplies that will run off battery when the AC line is dropped. They create way more noise than you would get from your wall socket without it. I would never use one except for maybe a projector to save a bulb. Even then I don't like them. APC especially since I used to test there products. They cut corners and leave out line filtering to save on the costs to build it. The switching noise barely passes the conducted and radiated emissions requirements. I don't work at the lab any more so I can say it now. Stay away from APC. I tested a lot of there industrial products from the small 250 watt versions to 10kVA models that weight 300lbs+. Not impressed at all. They will protect your product but for audio systems stay away. Some of the other manufacturers are better in this regard but APC sucks. It's not the designers there that suck its the company philosophy. Build cheap and make money.

I'm back in the telecom field again. Thank God the lab business was boring.

Yes, that's the one, and it was 'exposed' by our own speco2003, who gives PS Audio nightmares and wongmb heartburn. ;>

Vow, you guys do miss me.

As far as giving PS Audio nightmares, Speco and/or your opinion just isnt that important in the audiophile world (or other matters) at all. And sadly but truly Paul McCowan's word (whether he is right or not) carry way more weight than yours and Speco's combined. Yep he still has more worshipper than you guys, you have to bash harder and more often.

And regarding heartburn, it takes more than a few hundred bucks to give me that. And everyone who followed the post knew my opinion about the Harvester and I sold it at the end.

As far as giving PS Audio nightmares, Speco and/or your opinion just isnt that important in the audiophile world (or other matters) at all.

Only in your opinion, wong...which, of course, means nothing here, or in any of your 'worlds'. ;)

And sadly but truly Paul McCowan's word (whether he is right or not) carry way more weight than yours and Speco's combined.

Sounds like love...at least you've stopped hitting on me ;)

Only in your opinion, wong...which, of course, means nothing here, or in any of your 'worlds'. ;)



Thanks for pointing out what you and your allies said only matter "here". And even on this forum, your opinion is not widely accepted nor valid either.

And what are you doing in a $20k+ thread by the way ? Canare/belden cable only costs $2 a foot and a power surge strip bar costs $10 at HD. You mistaken this as the $20 thread ? Or you have a hit on me and just follow me wherever I goes.

Vow, you guys do miss me.

As far as giving PS Audio nightmares, Speco and/or your opinion just isnt that important in the audiophile world (or other matters) at all.


Yes, one elemental aspect of the audiophile world is its immunity to objective data. I already knew that. Nightmares and heartburn are *annoying* but they won;t change a fundamentally magical worldview.

Yes, Ronomy, but the various products were never tested with standard surge waveforms and PS Audio has redefined surges one or more times, in all cases to fit into what they think a surge is and not what the industry looks at them as. If they're truly capable of doing what people think they're capable of doing, then why are they unable to provide information regarding things like the joule capacity, whether protection is offered on L-N, L-G, and N-G pairs, or what the let through voltage is when subjected to a bona fide surge? While you're at it, ask them if the tranzorbs, aka Silicon Avalanche Diodes are matched.

Rather than take my writings on this, pop on over to their forum or their little niche at AA and post the questions then tell me or tell yourself whether they know what it does or whether they're doing a dog and pony show.

I wouldn't use a UPS since they are just switching power supplies that will run off battery when the AC line is dropped. They create way more noise than you would get from your wall socket without it. I would never use one except for maybe a projector to save a bulb. Even then I don't like them. APC especially since I used to test there products. They cut corners and leave out line filtering to save on the costs to build it. The switching noise barely passes the conducted and radiated emissions requirements. I don't work at the lab any more so I can say it now. Stay away from APC. I tested a lot of there industrial products from the small 250 watt versions to 10kVA models that weight 300lbs+. Not impressed at all. They will protect your product but for audio systems stay away. Some of the other manufacturers are better in this regard but APC sucks. It's not the designers there that suck its the company philosophy. Build cheap and make money.

I'm back in the telecom field again. Thank God the lab business was boring.


Hi Ronomy,

Thanks for your input. I am grateful you took the time to educate me on why my idea of having a UPS is not so smart. It is funny since quite a few people have told me that APC is the way to go for products like this but then that was in an IT arena.

I have little choice but to keep my Isotek as returning it to my dealer is no longer an option. It could be that it does everything that Isotek claim but I wish I new someone like Ronomy or Chu Gai for a more expert assessment. Some have suggested that the PS Audio products do nothing at all which is a worry and given the polarized views it is very hard to pick out the opinions from actual tested findings. Such is life I suppose. Isotek have collaborated with Nordost on the Thor device (and there are some pretty strong opinions about that unit on AVS). I suppose unless someone decides to give up a lot of their spare time and money to independently test these products (based on scientific measurements and not just listening tests) then it will always be a difficult area. This evaluation would probably have to involve some destructive testing which would further increase costs to the potential reviewer (though it could be fun). I just feel that unlike most other audio equipment, testing a power conditioner is dealing with more defined principles and therefore should result in some definitive data.

Nobody enjoys being told that the product they have just bought, be it a plasma screen or whatever is a piece of junk (or worse just snake oil) Once made, some are protective of their purchases and will defend them against all questions no matter how legitimate the nature of the request (that entertaining Swedish gentleman and his beloved power cords for example).

When SoundStage! reviewed the PS Audio Power Plant P600 (http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/psaudio_p600.htm) the reviewer concluded that it improved "every sonic parameter" and was also "the best audio accessory I’ve ever had in my system -- although it is an accessory in my system no longer, but rather an integral part of the entire chain that I can no longer do without" Can such observations be plausible given that some knowledgeable people feel that these units do nothing at all? I suppose this is too generic a question but the reviewer even suggests that PS Audio could be nominated for a Nobel Prize!! I have no idea as to the reputation of the reviewer and I do not seek to question his integrity but, with claims as large as those made I just cant believe that anyone could be so fooled if in fact the product was entirely passive (i.e. a placebo) and neither added or removed anything from the system!! I suppose the flip side of this is could someone who had such a large, attractive & expensive piece of hardware before them for review not notice a difference or be bold enough to dismiss its claims entirely?

Life is strange but entertaining none the less. :)

If they're truly capable of doing what people think they're capable of doing, then why are they unable to provide information regarding things like the joule capacity, whether protection is offered on L-N, L-G, and N-G pairs, or what the let through voltage is when subjected to a bona fide surge?

This is a key point.

PS Audio, Monster and some other "audiophile" manufacturers do not provide comprehensive technical specifications, not even in the user manuals! :eek:

How can anybody trust a company like these? :rolleyes:

Well Monster tells you more. Not a lot, but more. In any event, if you're relying on protection and are only using a plug in device, regardless who it's from is just plain silly.

When SoundStage! reviewed the PS Audio Power Plant P600 (http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/psaudio_p600.htm) the reviewer concluded that it improved "every sonic parameter" and was also "the best audio accessory I’ve ever had in my system -- although it is an accessory in my system no longer, but rather an integral part of the entire chain that I can no longer do without" Can such observations be plausible given that some knowledgeable people feel that these units do nothing at all? I suppose this is too generic a question but the reviewer even suggests that PS Audio could be nominated for a Nobel Prize!! I have no idea as to the reputation of the reviewer and I do not seek to question his integrity but, with claims as large as those made I just cant believe that anyone could be so fooled if in fact the product was entirely passive (i.e. a placebo) and neither added or removed anything from the system!! I suppose the flip side of this is could someone who had such a large, attractive & expensive piece of hardware before them for review not notice a difference or be bold enough to dismiss its claims entirely?

Life is strange but entertaining none the less. :)

Since there is no catagory for marketing, perhaps it is the author that is going for a prize in literature . After all, non-fiction is never nominated.

FWIW, anyone can be nominated. Nominations are held secret. Very few are worthy.

So Swampfox, are you saying that PS Audio did not win the prize that year?! I mean, what has a company got to do?! :rolleyes:

The SoundStage! reviewer does deal with the non-believers early on in the review. He acknowledges that a small but vocal contingent claim that these devices are snake oil but suggests that these "lucky" people may have listening rooms in the middle of nowhere (read deep woods shack (or still) from Deliverance) and therefore do not suffer the dirty power that city dwellers must endure. Count yourself lucky those of you who live in the middle of nowhere for truly you are in audiophile bliss!

I don't want either of these realities but for those who seek more information or quite simply are asking themselves "How does it work?" the author recommends the following;

"For a much more complete technical explanation of how the Power Plant does the voodoo it does, I suggest visiting PS Audio’s website"

It seems kinda obvious now, huh? :rolleyes:

I hope the lighthearted approach is not annoying to anyone, after all I am quite sure I fit the SoundStage! description of "gullible audiophile"

after all I am quite sure I fit the SoundStage! description of "gullible audiophile"

The first step is always in admitting it...good on you.

The first step is always in admitting it...good on you.

Thanks Targus,

Now I have admitted it, things get better from here on right?! :)

Yes, Ronomy, but the various products were never tested with standard surge waveforms and PS Audio has redefined surges one or more times, in all cases to fit into what they think a surge is and not what the industry looks at them as. If they're truly capable of doing what people think they're capable of doing, then why are they unable to provide information regarding things like the joule capacity, whether protection is offered on L-N, L-G, and N-G pairs, or what the let through voltage is when subjected to a bona fide surge? While you're at it, ask them if the tranzorbs, aka Silicon Avalanche Diodes are matched.

Rather than take my writings on this, pop on over to their forum or their little niche at AA and post the questions then tell me or tell yourself whether they know what it does or whether they're doing a dog and pony show.

Hi Chu Gai,

So they wouldn't answer any technical questions? I'm surprised. I believe you but still surprised. I suppose I could open one and see what is inside. The component model numbers should shed some light. Can't say I plan do do this any time soon but you have me wondering.

Ron

Regarding the P600. The benefit of one of these will depend on how much noise is on your AC lines and if it is indeed a problem with you electronics. If any of your components use a switching power supply then forget the P600. It will not help and it could actually make things worse for you. Switching power supplies are difficult loads for a power amplifier like the P600 and the P600 will likely distort to levels much higher than the AC wall outlet. This might be why some people don't think it helps. Also, some components are immune to AC line noise. So its best to try before you buy but still keep in mind that every setup and component is different. Some times it will help and those are the people that swear by it and others will hate it. Perhaps because of some of the reasons I just stated.

Ron

Those aren't very 'technical questions' if they've done the testing. Pop on over there Ronomy and ask them about surges. You've done some work in this area so they won't be able to toss you a down and out slider.

Bulldogger, I will be getting one as soon as they come out - I get dealer pricing due to my AVS review being used back on the first Stereophile ad for the P300. Talk to me then and I will let you know whether I will keep it and sell one or both of my P600s.

Just got it in, replacing both of my P600s. Initially, it really sucked big time, no dynamics or microdynamics, bass was dull and lifeless.

Let it run. Run. Run. Burn-in.

Reminded me of when I got my second P600 years ago. Even cold, sounded good. But a day later, took it to my friend Joe who soldered in some Bybee devices, then sounded lousy, burned in 12 hours, and sounded good again.

Reminded me of when I first got a bunch of Granite Audio power cords, but at my innstruction they didn't fully burn them in, I figured I'd burn them in my system.
But put them in and picture and sound both sucked, so out they went for two weeks factory burn-in, and presto, the magic restored.

Well, after waking up, after ten hours burn-in - WOW! Never sounded this good, particularly voices. Multi-channel SACD is clearly its best ever, bass, highs.
If I turn it up somewhat louder than normal listening levels, its not quite as smooth as before, somewhat straining, but my experience is that with more burn-in this will be alleviated.

My good friend Lon came over. He's very familiar with my system. Took him all of a few seconds to hear the improvement.

Note this model only has one Multiwave - which I understand is the square wave - and the one 60 Hz sinewave mode.

I don't know that it sounds better than my P600s using the 60 Hz sinewave mode. But the multiwave mode is a clear sonic improvement - immediately discernable.

I am running all of my components (except amplifiers) off this unit now - and selling the two P600s.

The top of the unit is hardly even a bit warm. Amazing.

Bulldogger you gotta get one. I have contacts so if you want one, I'll set you up for a good deal.

Just got it in, replacing both of my P600s. Initially, it really sucked big time, no dynamics or microdynamics, bass was dull and lifeless.

Let it run. Run. Run. Burn-in.

Reminded me of when I got my second P600 years ago. Even cold, sounded good. But a day later, took it to my friend Joe who soldered in some Bybee devices, then sounded lousy, burned in 12 hours, and sounded good again.

Reminded me of when I first got a bunch of Granite Audio power cords, but at my innstruction they didn't fully burn them in, I figured I'd burn them in my system.
But put them in and picture and sound both sucked, so out they went for two weeks factory burn-in, and presto, the magic restored.

Well, after waking up, after ten hours burn-in - WOW! Never sounded this good, particularly voices. Multi-channel SACD is clearly its best ever, bass, highs.
If I turn it up somewhat louder than normal listening levels, its not quite as smooth as before, somewhat straining, but my experience is that with more burn-in this will be alleviated.

My good friend Lon came over. He's very familiar with my system. Took him all of a few seconds to hear the improvement.

Note this model only has one Multiwave - which I understand is the square wave - and the one 60 Hz sinewave mode.

I don't know that it sounds better than my P600s using the 60 Hz sinewave mode. But the multiwave mode is a clear sonic improvement - immediately discernable.

I am running all of my components (except amplifiers) off this unit now - and selling the two P600s.

The top of the unit is hardly even a bit warm. Amazing.

Bulldogger you gotta get one. I have contacts so if you want one, I'll set you up for a good deal.


Are you really that fooled? Do you not see the only variable in this case is your ears?? OMG it sounds like heaven 10 hours later after sleep!!! What my ears could have been fatigued??? NO WAY it is the burn in!!! Rejoice PSAudio has beaten all physics and science!!!

What a load of crap.

Are you really that fooled? Do you not see the only variable in this case is your ears?? OMG it sounds like heaven 10 hours later after sleep!!! What my ears could have been fatigued??? NO WAY it is the burn in!!! Rejoice PSAudio has beaten all physics and science!!!

What a load of crap.

Speco, please go post all your anti power conditioning stuff in the "Rail Against Power Conditioning" thread here at this forum so your noise doesn't pollute the other threads. Thank you.

Speco, please go post all your anti power conditioning stuff in the "Rail Against Power Conditioning" thread here at this forum so your noise doesn't pollute the other threads. Thank you.

Dont think so. What I psted is as valid as your phoney science. PLease stop trying to sell people on items that are useless to them, and dont shill for companies. And please show some SCIENCE in this SCIENCE forum.

I am not railing aganist power conditioners as such just snake oil sales, and bogus non science that people like you seem to want to push over on people.

Speco is an odd guy. He appeared to understand power line filtration can help according to another thread. But, in general, he is anti power line treatment.

Speco, do you shield your signal cable? You don't want noise, right? But, do you understand that in each gain stage of the amplification, the signal is used to modulate the power voltage to generate output? The actual output is drawn from the power source. If your power source has noises, they will get amplified too through various stages of amplification.

Speco is an odd guy. He appeared to understand power line filtration can help according to another thread. But, in general, he is anti power line treatment.

Speco, do you shield your signal cable? You don't want noise, right? But, do you understand that in each gain stage of the amplification, the signal is used to modulate the power voltage to generate output? The actual output is drawn from the power source. If your power source has noises, they will get amplified too through various stages of amplification.


So everyones power is so dirty that everyone will hear a difference? I didnt know we lived in a third world country. I am in a really big Vegas show right now and we have zero power issues and also use zero power conditioning on everything from pro tools rigs to the complete house system.

What I am anti is bogus tests and claims, this is the Science forum. And thats what this whole report or review is. Sure if you had a noise on a line and placed a filter on it in that freq it might help.

Understanding how a filter works is science this BS from PS is not.

Speco lives in Vegas. He blows more $$ gambling monthly than I blow tweaking in a lifetime. What a comic!!! Someone should regenerate his "AC".

Speco lives in Vegas. He blows more $$ gambling monthly than I blow tweaking in a lifetime. What a comic!!! Someone should regenerate his "AC".


It is truly amazing how your PSA gear gives you wonderful powers to be able to tell what I do and dont do. It adds to yours and PSA creds by the heaps. Glad you can add some science here.

It's also interesting how an ex moderator, acts so much like a troll.

Speco, Targus, etc. - its ok for you to post your opinion. But I pay for a component and use it and post and I'm a troll.

Thats the sort of BS that convinced me to quit the moderating gig a few years ago.

You guys are all for "free speeach". But only when folks agree with you. You belong back in Communist Russia. And you owe me an apology.

Am I a troll when I post here about other AV components I have demod or use in my system? Like Theta Casablanca 2 and 3, Theta Six Shooter, Theta Compli, HD TIVO,
Velodyne SMS-1, Aerial subwoofers, etc. etc. Or am I a troll only when it involves something you consider tweaky that you disagree with?

You guys are darn lucky to live in Ameridca. You don't deserve all the good that our country provides for you.

Steve Bruzonky lives in Ameridca. They talk funny there and are very patriotic. What a comic! Someone should clean the noise in his line.

But I pay for a component and use it and post and I'm a troll.


Good, the first step is in admitting it.

You're not a troll because you buy components, you're a troll because you attack other posters.

You belong back in Communist Russia. And you owe me an apology.


So, we're from Russia? Psst...they're no longer communist.
BTW...you owe everyone here an apology, for your disgusting behaviour.

You guys are darn lucky to live in Ameridca. You don't deserve all the good that our country provides for you.

I don't live in 'ameridca', nor do I live in Russia...you'd be wise to stop trolling, especially when you're angry...your posts make you look foolish.

Speco, Targus, etc. - its ok for you to post your opinion. But I pay for a component and use it and post and I'm a troll.

Thats the sort of BS that convinced me to quit the moderating gig a few years ago.

You guys are all for "free speeach". But only when folks agree with you. You belong back in Communist Russia. And you owe me an apology.

Am I a troll when I post here about other AV components I have demod or use in my system? Like Theta Casablanca 2 and 3, Theta Six Shooter, Theta Compli, HD TIVO,
Velodyne SMS-1, Aerial subwoofers, etc. etc. Or am I a troll only when it involves something you consider tweaky that you disagree with?

You guys are darn lucky to live in Ameridca. You don't deserve all the good that our country provides for you.

Steve:

Just ignore Speco, Targus and Krabapple. I have come across those 3 many times already, whether its a power conditioner, cables or other tweaks. They are the 3 amigos who find it amusing to trash talk Ps Audio and other tweaks, especially the one they have zero hands on knowledge. :rolleyes:

Since you used to be a moderater on AVS, you should let your fellow current moderators know about their behavior.

especially the one they have zero hands on knowledge.

You've repeated this lie too many times, wong.

Speco has tried the products, and you know it.
If the only way to back your garbage up is to lie about it...well, that reveals much about your character.

You need to apologise to this forum for being such a dishonest troll.

Everyone else, you've read wongs posts...he doesn't know about the archive, and thinks he can constantly get away with his lies and BS.

Funny how they can give it but can't take it.


You and wong need to start "giving it and taking it" from each other....you're a perfect match....and wong likes "the anal stuff".

You and wong need to start "giving it and taking it" from each other....you're a perfect match....and wong likes "the anal stuff".
What does that have to do with Power Plant?

[QUOTE=Steve Bruzonsky]Speco, Targus, etc. - its ok for you to post your opinion. QUOTE]
Wrong I post FACT and real info. Your review is opinion. And I cant see what in the world I would need to say I am sorry to you for. You need to say your sorry to those who read your reviews and take them as fact and spend hard earned cash on things they dont need.

You've repeated this lie too many times, wong.

Speco has tried the products, and you know it.
If the only way to back your garbage up is to lie about it...well, that reveals much about your character.

You need to apologise to this forum for being such a dishonest troll.

Everyone else, you've read wongs posts...he doesn't know about the archive, and thinks he can constantly get away with his lies and BS.

And to that we have a couple more PSA products coming for test as well. And a group of us will be going to CES on the 11th to see if anybody in any of the snake oil booths want to do some tests against our zip cord. Should be fun.

pin 1 grounding problem in design can mean the need for other tweaks to possibly shield that problem.

Pin 1 grounding errors are epidemic through the audio industry.

pin 1 grounding problem in design can mean the need for other tweaks to possibly shield that problem.

Pin 1 grounding errors are epidemic through the audio industry.
Except there are safe non tweak ways to handle this. And I know you and I Dizz have seen and used the correct measures.

I am very happy with the Power Plant Premier in my system. But this thread has degenerated into crap going both ways with civility. I will go onto other things and enjoy my Power Plant Premier.

Mebbe there will be sequels, like the Rocky movies.!!

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