I am not going to get all technical with this post. Instead I am going to tell you my basic observations when using the crystalio II (latest firmware version 1.24a). I have been using it now for 2 weeks. I have DirecTV (HD TIVO and their new HR20 HD DVR) going into an Onkyo TX1000 and the out going into HDMI input 4 on the crystalio II. I have a JVC HM5 U DTHEATER player going into HDMI input 3. I then have a Panasonic Blu ray unit for spot 2 and then a Toshiba HD DVD XA1 in spot 1. I am using a Sony Ruby (HDMI, DVI and component). So far switching has been a breeze. I have tested the audio as well and have never experienced a single drop out over any of the signals.

The userface of this unit is remarkable. Besides the very clever Dynamic VP (which allows you to set specific parameters) it also has a very intuitive menu system. It is so easy to use that even my wife can figure it out! It pretty much consists of INPUT, OUTPUT, IMAGE, AUDIO, and SYSTEM. The INPUT section has the input configuration which allows you to select your video level coming in or if one wants to then can just select AUTO. I like being able to see what is coming in. Either 4:4:4 or 4:2:2 or RGB... The OUTPUT is also very easy to navigate thru. Here you can select your resolution (like any VP) and also what video level to send in. Then there is the screen masking and screen shape options. IMAGE is full of features. :eek: Here is where the crystalio II separates itself from the pack. Besides having a ton of Gamma, color temperature, and video settings it also has the deinterlacing options as well. Being able to pick between the VXP chip for HD and the faroudja for 480i sources is a tweakers dream. And you can set it to automatically switch between them depending on the resolution coming in. The aspect ratio under IMAGE has 1:1 Pixel Mapping as an option. finally one can just pick it instead of wonder if they are doing 1:1. It also includes built in test patterns to confirm it! Also there is full screen, 16:9 letterbox/2:35:1, 16:9, 4:3 letterbox, 4:3, a NLS option and finally there is even a custom option. That is not all there is to do under IMAGE either. Here you can set your video profiles, and also set the Noise Reduction option. I know many say never turn on a NR option but I will say if I am watching a source and see one dot of grain after turning the NR on low it is gone! I have found it works wonders for those older titles on HD DVD. It truly cleans up the picture without causing me to lose sharpness. The AUDIO section is just that. AUDIO. It allows you to pick each source and also do delays (if needed)... The SYSTEM is also nice because it enables you to turn on the advnced options. Those would be the HDMI port configurations. Also allows one to adjust R/G/B individual gamma curves. I could go on and on about the many features there are that many. Even the faroudja chip has its own options. Also I would like to mention the Voltage amp option (off, low, high) for longer cable runs.

So enough with the userface, how does it do with Picture Quality? After you set it up just the way you want to you finally get to SEE what it can do. The crystalio II has 2 HDMI outputs and a BNC component style output. And all 3 OUTPUTS are always simultaneaously active! I have been using HDMI on my ruby but also plan to use the DVI input when the 1080p 48hz ouptut is fixed (in the next firmware). I use the component on the ruby for my xbox 360. So far I have not been dissapointed. I have said time and time again, you get what you pay for and the crystalio II is no exception. The picture is the absolute best I have seen on my ruby. It really gives it a DLP look without the rainbows. Sharp and vivid. You can actually SEE the adjustments to the picture as you make them. I was playing Madden 07 and I could not believe the amount of detail on the turf alone. I could never see that before with any other processor. I actually had to turn down sharpness because I was getting a headache. Mission Impossible 3 looked terrific. Also my Toshiba HD DVD DEMO disc is jaw dropping. I put in some of my best material so I could judge it with great sources before I put in 480i material. Chronicles of riddick, Charlie and the chocolate Factory all looked great on HD DVD. Then of course I put in the older titles. They looked cleaner when the NR was turned on low. I think their FineEdge, FidelityEngine and TruMotionHD features all played a key role in making these older titles look pristine. Fast times at Ridgemont High and Animal House were other good examples. For Blu ray I only have about 6 titles. I started with Evolution. Wow! That looked great. Monster House and Dinosaur were very nice to. It was hard for me to see what grain others have mentioned with Monster House. I am very impressed with the detail level in dark scenes. The Great Raid was spectacular. Click, even though it may not be one of the best Br titles out there, still looked very good. I have found that average looking HD titles (whatever format) look much better. And the best ones are unbelievable. :eek: I can't wait for Ice Age 2 in a couple weeks. For SD dvds I expect Cars to look HD. These Disney titles always look great no matter what display but for this set up I expect it to be hard to tell the difference between it and a HD title. For DTHEATER, the results were just the same. I, ROBOT was so 3D like it was scary. I then played some older titles in 480i to see what the faroudja deinterlacing can do. Not bad at all. After selecting the A/R I was very impressed. Usually it is crap in, crap out. Not in this case. Same for my DirecTV sources. Whenever I sent in 480i (playboy channel) they did not look bad at all.;) And of course HD sources looked excellant. I leave the NR on low at all times with satellite. I am a tweaker at heart and having this many options is awesome.

So to sum things up, I have had a DVDO VP30 and 50, and also a Lumagen HDQ. I really liked the HDQ's picture Q. I hated its menu system (userface). I felt like I needed a QB wristband. I liked the DVDO VP30 with its ABT 102 card. I also liked the VP50 which is pretty much a VP30 with 1080i deinterlacing. The DVDO userface is better than average and has nice color.The VP50 does a nice picture to. But for me I just LOVE (not like) the crystalio II. The remotes are all pretty similar to. The crystalio IIs is simple with a backlite (blue buttons) option. You can also hit INFO at anytime to see what is going on. There you can confirm whether you are using the VXP chip or faroudja. Also if you are in 1:1 mode. Also whether it is FILM or VIDEO, 3:2, resolutions in or out... You get my point. You can have any question answered at a push of a button. And as far as looks go the crystalio II is the most impressive looking of the bunch. It has an excellant display window on the front. I like it when it goes to commercial and you can see it switch between film and 2:2. And yes you can turn that off if it is distracting. Even though it is just a dot (blue, orange or green-which indicates PASSTHRU). So when the next fimware hits (later this month) and the 1080p 48hz, Picture in Picture and Picture by Picture are added it will be an even better VP. PiP is going to be a great feature to add that will feel like the cherry on top! :)

Kudos to Pixel Magic!

Nice review. Looks like the Crystalio is well worth the price for HD but if someone has a very simple system including HD STB and 480i DVD on plasma is the improvement on SD significant enough to sway a buy decision?

Thanks for the post - but just curious, are you saying (and seeing) that the Crystallio's DcDI chip does as well on 480i (or better) than the ABT102? Unfortuneatly, in my case, I probably watch as much SD as HD - few of the sports teams I follow are "big" enough to get the HD treatment. Last year, even two out of the 3 bowl games I watched were low-tier enough that they were SD. So in my situation, SD performance is much more critical than how much a Blu-Ray pic is improved.

;) - now I may change my mind, after I score a PS-3, but that's another story.

Great Review!

As an owner of the DVDO VP50 I am considering switching video processors. Do you own the VPS3300 or the VPS3800?

Thanks,
Gary

I think you can tweak a 480i image to look nearly as good as the ABT102 card. The DCDI technology with motion adaptive noise reduction is a great combo. Not to mention their TrueLife enhancement and cross color features. Don't get me wrong, the ABT 102 card is excellant. That is the best feature (in my opinion) the DVDOs have. But for 1080i in and sending out 1080p the crystalio II is the king. If you don't have a true 1080p display or watch more SD than HD then the crystalio II is not up your alley. If you watch a lot of SD then th DVDOs would be more ideal (and cost effective). But since I watch 85-90% HD and my display is 1080p the crystalio II is priceless. :)

Thanks for the review Joe.

I am a littel confused about one thing: can you choose between Faroudja DCDi and the VXP chips to deinterlace standard def material?

I also forgot to mention that I also am a big fan of the USB inputs. Being able to do firmware updates by using a USB flashdrive is so conveinant. Not having to disconnect all my cables is really time saving. That is another nice feature worthy of being mentioned!

Yes Rob, you can choose to enable or keep disabled the faroudja deinterlacing. When you enable it whenever there is a 480i source it automatically turns on. Whenever you send in a 1080i source the VXP chip is on... I like a VP that does all the work. :eek:

Here is a newbie question about VPs in general. I have heard that certain plasmas will not allow you to overide their internal VP. I have a Samsung (current model), how can i find out if the internal VP can be overidden and I can use an external VP?

Glad you're enjoying your purchase Joerod - I'm certainly enjoying mine.
I hear time and time again that it's expensive, but tbh, once you've made the decision, it seems like a bargain - there's so many nice touches with the package and with regard to PQ - I find it transparent - i.e. for the first time for ages, I'm able to watch the content rather than analyse the processing.
Nice one!

Like you I'm looking forward to the pip - it's always something I've coveted - whether I'll use it or not - who knows!

I'm thinking about getting s second small monitor for it too - basically you can output any of your inputs to the second monitor - as well as watching 2 at the same time, I'm also thinking about having something small so that I don't have to fire up the PJ to play some music off the Media Player or set something on the PVR.
Only one of the outputs can be fully processed at once, but it's still a cool feature.

Yes Rob, you can choose to enable or keep disabled the faroudja deinterlacing. When you enable it whenever there is a 480i source it automatically turns on. Whenever you send in a 1080i source the VXP chip is on... I like a VP that does all the work. :eek:


So the VXP chip CAN deinterlace a SD 480i signal? If so, how does it compare to the Faroudja?

Here is a newbie question about VPs in general. I have heard that certain plasmas will not allow you to overide their internal VP. I have a Samsung (current model), how can i find out if the internal VP can be overidden and I can use an external VP?

Try it with your PC if you can override it before buying a VP.

Yes it can. I like the extra features the faroudja offers for deinterlacing the 480i signals. With those extras it produces a sharper, clearer image than the VXP. Of course the VXP was made for 1080i signals so when it comes down to it this is one hell of a combo! :)

Yes it can. I like the extra features the faroudja offers for deinterlacing the 480i signals. With those extras it produces a sharper, clearer image than the VXP. Of course the VXP was made for 1080i signals so when it comes down to it this is one hell of a combo! :)

Thanks Joe. I guess Faroudja still is hard to beat for SD deinterlacing. But you said you would prefer the ABT over the Faroudja for SD?

To be 100% clear as mud I would say they are so similar in pic Q it is like splitting hairs picking between the two. Still the choice for a crystalio II over the DVDO VP30 or 50 is crystal clear for me. I want the whole package. And for me HD deinterlacing is top priority.

To be 100% clear as mud I would say they are so similar in pic Q it is like splitting hairs picking between the two. Still the choice for a crystalio II over the DVDO VP30 or 50 is crystal clear for me. I want the whole package. And for me HD deinterlacing is top priority.
Thanks for answering my query Joe. I've also been following the PM C2 thread (http://www.pixelmagicforum.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=16) - it's certainly not without its problems either though. The media player section is still very buggy and only just now, after nearly six months or more, implemented and becoming usefull. Ah well, looks like the days of having a device come out complete and bug free are long gone. I didn't see much on any gremlins like audio and video problems etc etc. Are there none with this device?

To be 100% clear as mud I would say they are so similar in pic Q it is like splitting hairs picking between the two. Still the choice for a crystalio II over the DVDO VP30 or 50 is crystal clear for me. I want the whole package. And for me HD deinterlacing is top priority.

Thanks a lot Joe, I appreciate it.

I waited and just go my crystalio II. This is obviously a later production unit with the latest firmware already intact. I have not has a single issue with this unit. It has worked flawlessly. It has done everything I have expected and more. When the roadmap gets closer to being completed it will be even better. I really have no use for the built in HD media player so I can't complain about anything there. This unit has more than enough for any home theater. A lot of it I will never use. Like the 2 HD SDI outputs. Still, it never hurts to have more than you need... ;)

Thanks Joe for a very informative review!

I've been following the DVDO VP50 thread with great interest. Unfortunately due to the many ongoing and still unresolved issues I think that I'll pass on the DVDO product line. From what I can tell they haven't fixed a single problem since the initial product release.

Unless those issues are quickly resolved with the VP50 I see a Crystalio II in my future. ;)

Thanks again.

If you do get a crystalio II, I guarrantee you will never look back. I haven't... I also did not mention how well it does with HD sports like the NFL! :eek:

im in the market for my first VP and had my mind set on the CII however after reading this I'm not sure. I watch mostly sd since live in iceland and there are no HD broadcasts here and I'm not buying HDDVD/BLURAY until sometime next year. What do you guys think, is ABT that much better at sd? Also my pj (barco cine 8) doesnt really output 1080p

There is not much difference between the two. But if you are holding off on Blu ray and HD DVD and there is not any HD broadcasting in your neighborhood then I would suggest getting a more cost effective VP like the DVDO VP20 with the 102 card. Especially since you are not doing 1080p... Save the extra cash for now and upgrade in the future when it will meet your needs better...

I think the ABT is supposed to be better at deinterlacing particularly difficult SD, but that doesn't guarantee that the pq will be better - it's only one part of the equasion.
Also the majority of programming I've encountered doesn't pose any problems to CII.
Maybe if I watched loads of varied anime, it would show the differences, but not at the moment.
The DVDO game mode is also of interest to me - I'm looking forward to the Wii and I hope there isn't too much lag using VXP - My HTPC with DScaler gave too much lag for my liking.

I have not experienced any lag issues using the 360 with the crystalio II. I agree about the SD topic as well. Just for me there is no way I would consider passing on a crystalio II so i could get the 102 card in another VP. The crystalio II's benefits far out weigh it and there is not that big of difference watching SD anyway. I have had both in side by side comparisons... If the VP50 out performed the crystalio II there is no way I would have even thought about keeping it instead of the VP50. The extra I could have saved could have went towards something else...

We watched X-MEN 3 last night. Wow! Very good picture going thru the crystalio II. I was very impressed again. I expect the newer releases to all look terrific with this VP. Also I was able to play Gears of War using the 360 and VP combo. Now this has to be the best looking video game I have ever played. And no lag time either. The crystalio II has to be my best home theater purchase (that and my ruby) in a long time... :)

(that and my ruby) in a long time... :)

How is your Ruby hooked to your VP? HMDI?

How does your VP support film frame rates, aka 24, 48, etc?

It supports them flawlessly. I have not had a single issue. Everything I have sent it has been handled. I am sending both HDMI outs to my ruby (1 for HDMI and 1 for DVI). I also use the component out to the ruby for my Xbox 360. I like the flexibility. I can use the HDMI though with the component input (all outputs active simultaneous) but I like keeping it all down the same signal path.

It supports them flawlessly. I have not had a single issue. Everything I have sent it has been handled. I am sending both HDMI outs to my ruby (1 for HDMI and 1 for DVI). I also use the component out to the ruby for my Xbox 360. I like the flexibility. I can use the HDMI though with the component input (all outputs active simultaneous) but I like keeping it all down the same signal path.

The Ruby is not suppose to handle 24fps over HDMI - only Component.

Sorry, I just noticed you put in 24. Your right, I only get 48hz 1080p over the DVI input. I have been very happy with 60hz 1080p over the HDMI input.

Sorry, I just noticed you put in 24. Your right, I only get 48hz 1080p over the DVI input. I have been very happy with 60hz 1080p over the HDMI input.

That is what I thought - 48Hz over DVI and 60Hz over HDMI.

I assume your preference is 60Hz over HDMI.

That is what I use with my Ruby - from a VP50.

The next firmware update (later this month) will enable the crytalio II to do 48hz 1080p. So I have not been able to compare them yet. So for now I use 60hz 1080p to the HDMI on the ruby. It looks excellant so I am not complaining one bit. It will be fun to compare though. :)

The next firmware update (later this month) will enable the crytalio II to do 48hz 1080p. So I have not been able to compare them yet. So for now I use 60hz 1080p to the HDMI on the ruby. It looks excellant so I am not complaining one bit. It will be fun to compare though. :)

Yes it will - I'll Stay tuned to this channel [GRIN] for breaking News Events.

Add another happy CII user to the list. I've had it a few months now and could not consider going back.

Apart from the SDI-modded RP91, I have a TiVo Series 3 (the new HD TiVo) hooked up to it and they make a stunning combination.

My only area of concern is the media player component. It's almost usable, but its UI is not upto par with the rest of the CII at all.

Chris.

Can anyone suggest any reasonably priced Internet dealers that are selling CII? The NA dealer list on their web site is pathetic and I do not want to pay MSRP.

Eugene

Can anyone suggest any reasonably priced Internet dealers that are selling CII? The NA dealer list on their web site is pathetic and I do not want to pay MSRP.

Eugene

I'm not sure, but I think AVS might sell them. If so, that would be your best bet.

What's AVS?

What's AVS?

The forum that you and I are communicating on right now! :p

Try contacting Jason Turk, Daniel Hutnicki, or Tryg. You can find them right here on this forum! :)

joerod or anyone else, does the Crystalio 2 do 1080p60 and 1080p50 over its component outputs? I think it already does this over the RGBHV outputs, but I am not sure of component.

The forum that you and I are communicating on right now! :p

Try contacting Jason Turk, Daniel Hutnicki, or Tryg. You can find them right here on this forum! :)

I just ordered a CII at a discounted price from Jason at AVS yesterday. It just takes a few days for him to obtain one. Drop him an email or give him a call. Great service and great person to work with!

His email: jason@avscience.com
His phone: 315-538-9806

Lore

I just ordered a CII at a discounted price from Jason at AVS yesterday. It just takes a few days for him to obtain one. Drop him an email or give him a call. Great service and great person to work with!

His email: jason@avscience.com
His phone: 315-538-9806

LoreI acquired mine for a really good price from Alan at AVS. I PM'ed him to discuss it and used the good old telephone to pass over payment details.

I needed to do a warranty replacement on it (Serial port was defective) and the service from AVS (Alan in this case) was nothing short of fabulous.

I wholeheartedly recommend using AVS. I also recommend the CII, though my experience with other scalers is limited. :)

Chris.

Screen Research Clearpix2 80w (92d) lit by Sony Ruby at min throw + 1”
Component in: 480i from Sony RGR-GX7 DVD-R, (no dvi or hdmi)
HDMI in: auto-hdmi from Sony DHGHDD500 (hdr) for OTA [H]DTV
(1080i over component from this unit looks almost as good as hdmi)

Plan A: SD DVD player ($800 - 1800) with good sound now, C2 (3300) or equiv 2Q2007,
a survivor of HD/BR follies if (any) 4Q 2007.
Plan B: C2 now, 2Q2007 DVD player(s) < $3,000 or so.

Shelf/cabinet space is at a premium. Thoughts, ideas, suggestions, abuse?

I did not use AVS (my own dealer source) but would use them if I needed to in a hearbeat. :)

Ripclawsa I am not sure about the 1080p 60hz over component. I will check it out later and get back to you. I use the component for my xbox 360 but have always been sending 1080i out to my ruby. It looks so good anyway I never even questioned the resolution. I love the amount of adjustments you can do as far as the picture is concerned! ;)

Drop me a line if you have any questions.

joerod or anyone else, does the Crystalio 2 do 1080p60 and 1080p50 over its component outputs?
Component is limited to 1080i both in and out.

If you do get a crystalio II, I guarrantee you will never look back. I haven't... I also did not mention how well it does with HD sports like the NFL! :eek:

I have a 1080P TV ( Sony A2000 SXRD) and I notice that with HD sports the grass blurrs a bit when the camera horizontal pans. Does the pixel by pixel motion adaptive deinterlacing in the Pixel magic chip in the Crytallio II improve 1080i sports picture quality in this regard? (i.e. sharpen the picture for fast motion sports and horizontal panning)? in what way is the PQ improved for watching fast motion sports with 720P (ESPN) or 1080i (HDNet) input from Dishnetwork satillite box? Much thanks.

Component is limited to 1080i both in and out.

Thanks, Thoth.

I do not have any blur whatsoever using the crystalio II. It is a very vivid, razor sharp picture on my ruby. That is why sometimes I have to look up at the ceiling to make sure it is not a DLP pj hanging. The crystalio II makes that big of difference. :)

I just ordered a CII at a discounted price from Jason at AVS yesterday. It just takes a few days for him to obtain one. Drop him an email or give him a call. Great service and great person to work with!

His email: jason@avscience.com
His phone: 315-538-9806

Lore

In case any of you are interested, the manufacturer Pixel Magic Systems drop ships orders for AVS from Hong Kong. Mine shipped out today via UPS international (shipping was not cheap-- $ 132). Apparently they don't stock via a distributor in the US. And keep in mind all repairs have to go BACK to Hong Kong!

Is there anything about this unit that's not expensive?

Just remember, you get what you pay for. And the crystalio II is worth it! ;)

Just remember, you get what you pay for. And the crystalio II is worth it! ;)

I know but I'm running out of cash before the holiday buying spree for family gifts...

Can I ask a few quick Qs abt CII to the happy owners here ?

1) Does the CII really have no obvious useability bugs right now ? (i.e. audio dropout, HDMI handshake, etc, aka those ppl in the other brands are complaining ?)

2) For 1080i60 film performance, is there any significant difference between CII/VantageHD/HDP/VP50 ? (I think some of the users here either are ex-user of another make or even have both concurrently).

3) My other source would be 1080i50 video, but I'd imagine there are very few users here having this signal. If u do (Europe guys), is it good ?

4) Does HDMI take 1080p24 now ? And 1080p60 ? ( would use it as a switch)

Thanks

In case any of you are interested, the manufacturer Pixel Magic Systems drop ships orders for AVS from Hong Kong. Mine shipped out today via UPS international (shipping was not cheap-- $ 132). Apparently they don't stock via a distributor in the US. And keep in mind all repairs have to go BACK to Hong Kong!

Is there anything about this unit that's not expensive?Mine, and the warranty replacement, came from/to AVS in New York state. Though this was a handful of months ago.

Chris.

lorelevitt, just invite them over for a movie for their gift. :D

c722, with the latest firmware I have not had one single handshake issue or audio dropout. It has worked flawless. As I stated I have had all the latest VPs and none are on the same level performance wise as the CII. The VP50 was a marginal step up from the VP30. The HDQ is nearly as good as the VP50 (so close)...

Can I ask a few quick Qs abt CII to the happy owners here ?

1) Does the CII really have no obvious useability bugs right now ? (i.e. audio dropout, HDMI handshake, etc, aka those ppl in the other brands are complaining ?)


I have the 3800 (since July) and the mediaplayer is filled with bugs(still beta firmware though)
I have some HDMI problems that are annoying but not a showstopper for me. For example: My receiver gets hdmi(audio) in from the CII and after switching inputs on the CII sometimes the sound will be gone and I need to cycle (off/on) the receiver to get sound working again. Startup sequence is important in my system to avoid problems:I have to make sure the CII starts up before my screen or else no picture
Usabillity problems: The IR receiver in the CII is sensitive for stray IR (lcd/plasma screens etc) again not a showstopper because Pixelmagic made a firmware change that allows to set the IR receiver behaviour to prevent the "jumping around" of the cursor when in the menus, downside is that you have to do multiple button presses instead of holding down the remote buttons to change things. (Annoying when you are calibrating and going through long lists etc)
The CII takes around 25 seconds to boot after the latest firmware, before that it was even slower. They are working on it though...
I sometimes wonder about the Pixelmagic quality control/testing on the firmwares they release:some erase all user settings some dont. In the firmware before the latest one BTB and WTW are crushed. Latest one I had to manually rename to get it working.


3) My other source would be 1080i50 video, but I'd imagine there are very few users here having this signal. If u do (Europe guys), is it good ?


Yes it is good :)

Despite my negative remarks I like the CII *a lot* If Pixelmagic keeps on improving(they have added a lot features that were requested) and removes the remaining problems I think its price is remarkably cheap for what it does.

I have to make sure the CII starts up before my screen or else no picture
Same for me.
I sometimes wonder about the Pixelmagic quality control/testing on the firmwares they release:some erase all user settings some dont.
But you can now easily save/restore your settings to/from a USB drive, which should help (assuming they maintain file compatibility).

I'm still very happy with my 3300.

The Crystalio might be in my future soon :)

The Crystalio might be in my future soon :)

It would seem to fit in with your Avatar line "Dream Systems". :cool:

A couple of quick questions.

The 25 second boot time - is this everytime you go from standby to power on?

Any new insight on the benefits of the 3800 vs 3300, now that the media player is sort of working, HD DVD and BD mods beginning to surface for HD-SDI? Any tangible benefits to this precision clock?

The 25 second time seems kind of long to me. I will time my unit tomorrow when I first turn it on. I would guess more like 10 to 15 seconds for me...

Tyrg, the crystalio II would be a great addition to any home theater set up. Go for it! :)

a couple of questions;

1) i like the punchy DLP picture but also the film like look of the Ruby and Pearl along with their better black levels and color satuation. from an overall PQ perspective, would a Crystalio II with a Ruby or Pearl get me best of both designs better than a Marantz 11S1? the approx cost will be in the same ballpark for either the Pearl/Ruby--Crystalio II.....or......the Marantz VP-11S1 (i have a Marantz S3 now and don't see rainbows).

will the combo give me most of the 'sharp picture' of the DLP with the benefits of the SXRD? will the combo improve the supposed 'dullness' of either Sony?

my room is painted a dark brown and the projector would be mounted approx 12' from the (110"--120" diag HP) screen with very good to almost total light control.

2) i'm interested in the 2:35-1 Constant Height Image direction. will the Crystalio II give me any advantages to impliment that direction when used with a Ruby or Pearl? i don't understand the requirements of this issue to figure it out for myself.

sorry if these questions are a bit OT but i could not find an appropriate place to ask them.

Startup time for my 3300 is ~15 seconds with the latest firmware.

So is mine. Right at 15 seconds which in my opinion is not bad at all. :)

Mike L, As I stated in my review the crystalio II allows me to have that punchy look with my SXRD ruby. I can make the picture razor sharp. I really do feel like I am watching a DLP pj at times. Especially when I am watching sports in HD! The helmets, the grass the team colors are all rendered with great detail. I am loving those cheerleader close-ups! :eek:

Mike,
No processor will give you the advantages of each projection technology and put it all in the one of your choice. A Ruby will never be as sharp as the Marantz.

Art

No, but it can make it damn close...

No, but it can make it damn close...

At without any rainbows!

Exactly. I loved my DLP pjs (mainly Optoma H79) but my wife suffered (severely) from RBE. I even took her to an eye doc. She could barely make it thru one movie it was so bad. So I was sad when I took down the Optoma and decided to try a ruby. You know, the ruby has been great (since May) and I have been happy. My wife has been extremely happy even scheduling her own girlfriend movie nights! :eek: Now, after adding a crystalio II it is bringing back that DLP look. Now I am not by any means saying it completely changes your pj but I am saying it adds a "kick" to the picture. The same kind you get from a DLP. Seeing is believing! :eek:

Tyrg, the crystalio II would be a great addition to any home theater set up. Go for it! :)


I'm very close to pulling the trigger on one of these.

Mike Lavigne go me interested :)

a couple of questions;
sorry if these questions are a bit OT but i could not find an appropriate place to ask them.

The 2.35 constant height forum is a good resource ...but I too am looking for user reports on this scaler and constant height users.

all

Not rich like you guys who all own Ruby's and not planning to jump into 1080p this year, anyone see value of upgrading to Crystalio II for me ? I already have a Crystalio I which has been doing fine for me. But Faroudja hazedness on high def is starting to get to me a bit ... hope to hear from someone using just a 720p lcd projector

thanks !

I personally would not. The crystalio II really shines doing 1080i to 1080p. You can get very good results with VP20, VP30 or a Lumagen HDQ (for doing 720p) and save some funds which you can use in the future for a 1080p pj. The HDQ atleast will do 1080i deinterlacing for when you are ready. Also it does great 1080i to 720p conversion... For the money and a 720p pj it would be my first pick...

When will they fix it though and provide proper 1080p24sf output????

I personally would not. The crystalio II really shines doing 1080i to 1080p. You can get very good results with VP20, VP30 or a Lumagen HDQ (for doing 720p) and save some funds which you can use in the future for a 1080p pj. The HDQ atleast will do 1080i deinterlacing for when you are ready. Also it does great 1080i to 720p conversion... For the money and a 720p pj it would be my first pick...
Actually, I don't think that's true.
Sure they will do a good job of upscaling to 720, but converting 1080i to 720p is a different kettle of fish. I run a CRT projector at 720 and 768p and find Crystalio II to be a fine improvement over C1 in all regards. Here in the UK, our major sources of broadcast HD are all 1080i so I think this is an important factor.
Having said that - I realise that CII is a lot of money. In the end I wasn't ready to jump to 1080 displays yet, not because of funds but because I want to see the 2nd generation machines - CII has given me a nice improvement in the meantime.

I know what the CII is capable of but if we are being practical then I would get a CII after I got a 1080p display. It does do a great job with cross conversion to 720p but for the money the other VPs I suggested do very good as well. Did you not read the review of the Lumagen HDQ in WSR? Grg even says it does a great job doing it. I thought it did a great job with my Optoma H79. If you can get a HDQ for 1500 why not instead of pay 4500 for a CII? I have had all these newer VPs and have played with them both on my ruby and my 720p Optoma. So actually I know it is true...

I absolutely agree with the value statement - my intention wasn't to try and pursuade someone to pay for a VP ahead of getting a good display.

However, I did want to point out that 1080i to 720p is HD deinterlacing whichever way you look at it - and it's just as important that it's done correctly as 1080i-p
i.e. you are going to see distracting artifacts if it's done poorly.

But as you say - the balancing of money throughout the system is definitely important.

FWIW, until this past saturday, my CII was driving a 720p projector (though with 768 lines native) and an older 720p LCD panel (also with 768 lines).

The CII did wonders for all sources, SD and HD alike, when scaling for these two output devices.

I now have a 52" 1080p LCD panel at the front of the room. I think the performance gains the CII brings are about equal in both cases - I have a larger LCD now than previously, but it's smaller than the projectors image. At the same viewing distance, I still prefer the 720p projected image over the LCD - at 10 to 15 feet, you'd be hard pushed to say the projector had fewer pixels (though once I have enough pennies, I will be aiming for a 1080p projector, of course).

(FWIW, the room is not light controlled, ergo the LCD is the daytime viewing device).

Chris,

Exactly. I do agree with you on the importance of 1080i to 720p. It's just that in his post he stated "rich guys like you" so I figured being more cost effectve was his goal. That is the reason why I suggested the other route. Trust me, I know what the CII is capable of. It can be the backbone in anyone's set up. But for a 720p display there are alternative routes that can be done which are more cost effective. :)

The 2.35 constant height forum is a good resource ...but I too am looking for user reports on this scaler and constant height users.

Tryg,

please let me know when you get this figured out as it looks like the way to go for me. i rarely watch any 4:3 or SD programing in my HT anyway and might as well get all the lines of resolution i deserve.

i see a Pearl, Crystalio II, high power screen, and 2:35-1 lens in my very near future.

thanks to all for the feedback to my questions; the Crystalio II with a Pearl looks like the way to go for me. this will allow me to justify upgrading the Pearl next year when the 'Diamond' or other next gen DLP 3-chip 1080p machines are out......as the Pearl should not depreciate much in total dollars.

and i want very good 1080p right now.

if i go the Marantz VP-11S1 route the penalty of upgrading will be prohibitive. i don't see any of the current reasonably priced (under $20k) FP to be my long-term solution. my expectation is that a year from now there will be many fewer compromises in under $20k FP's.

also, the Crystalio II will allow me to avoid upgrading my Lexicon MC-12 to HDMI switching (or another like processor that would do that)......which alone almost pays for it.

I bought the Lumagen for my Ruby and think I probably should have have got the Crystalio II instead. Hopefully AVS will let me exchange it.

The only thing that gives me pause is this thread over on the pixelmagic support forums:

HDMI <-> HDMI audio drop outs (http://www.pixelmagicforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1841)

The vp50 has similarly reported audio issues as well. People speak highly of the Crystalio II here, but how many are using it for HDMI audio switching?

I bought the Lumagen for my Ruby and think I probably should have have got the Crystalio II instead. Hopefully AVS will let me exchange it.

The only thing that gives me pause is this thread over on the pixelmagic support forums:

HDMI <-> HDMI audio drop outs (http://www.pixelmagicforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1841)

The vp50 has similarly reported audio issues as well. People speak highly of the Crystalio II here, but how many are using it for HDMI audio switching?

HDMI appears to be a mess for EVERYONE. I think it speaks well of PMS that when they couldn't reproduce the bug, they inserted code into the firmware to gather more information on what is happening in an effort to understand the problem and fix it. I don't know of any cases where DVDO or Calibre did something similar to gather more information to make a serious effort to fix a user problem!

All,
I own a VP50. I'm feeding the VP50 with sat signals via a Humax box. The box has 3 res. 1080i, 720p, 576p (all via HDMI or COMP) if I'm using the lowest for non HDTV channels so 576p for 576i signals the signal to my 1080p pio (5000EX) is not so good. This is because the VP50 can not (yet) do a prep from the p signals.

If I switch to 1080i the signal becames better. Although not to bad I hardly notice any difference with or without the VP50.

DVD PQ is OK but again without the VP50 not much (hardley no) difference. Same for gameplay via PS and XBOX. Res out from VP50 always on 1080P BTW (screen set to Dot by Dot) everything connected via HDMI or COMP.

Could the CII do a better job for the signals ?
Perhaps i can switch from the VP50 to the CII.
Hope for some helpfull comments on this.

I have done many comparisons both with resolutions and sources. In short the answer is yes, the CII will do a better job. That is the reason I picked it over the VP50. My xbox 360 looks too good! :eek:

What would a CII do for me? Pany 50"8uk plasma, DirecTv H10-250.

I went to the Crystalio II forum and there seems to be a lot of operational issues with this product (hanging up, not switching consistantly between input, having to re-boot, etc). Are these just a few customers having problems or is this product not quite ready for prime time?

It would obviously make your set up more flexible with all the options a CII offers. Not to mention it would provide the best picture Q for your Panny. I have a HD TIVo (10-250) as well and have not mentioned yet how nice the CII makes the guide look. Logos look very sharp. The guide is the cleanest I have ever seen it! I never realized there were blue then teal colors in the guide. That is another way I could SEE a difference between VPs. The DirecTV guides on both the HD TIVO (10-250) and the HR20 HD DVR are very sharp and colorful...

audioguy, I noticed that there are a few members over there (PMS forum) that are having compatibilty issues with their equipment. I use a wide variety of components and still have not had a single issue. On Saturday I ran the CII for 12 hours straight. On Sunday it went for another 10 hours. It has not overheated, audio dropped, or signal dropped once. Many of the issues being talked about over there are from the same consumers. I am not saying you would without a doubt not experience an issue (especially since HDMI can be so unpredictable) but I would say the later manufactured units are definitely running more efficient...

I have done many comparisons both with resolutions and sources. In short the answer is yes, the CII will do a better job. That is the reason I picked it over the VP50. My xbox 360 looks too good! :eek:


Ok thanks for your response. So the CII also does (re)processing of p-resolutions?

It doesn't have that DVDO feature if that's what you mean - i.e. the ability to pull apart a badly deinterlaced image.
But it can accept properly progressive inputs (e.g. 1080p, 1080sf24, etc) over the HDMI inputs.
It can also accept progressive PC inputs over DVI-HDMI too - which is useful.
This is something that the last generation of VPs couldn't do.

[QUOTE=bird_oa]All,
I own a VP50. I'm feeding the VP50 with sat signals via a Humax box. The box has 3 res. 1080i, 720p, 576p (all via HDMI or COMP) if I'm using the lowest for non HDTV channels so 576p for 576i signals the signal to my 1080p pio (5000EX) is not so good. This is because the VP50 can not (yet) do a prep from the p signals.

If I switch to 1080i the signal becames better. Although not to bad I hardly notice any difference with or without the VP50.

DVD PQ is OK but again without the VP50 not much (hardley no) difference. Same for gameplay via PS and XBOX. Res out from VP50 always on 1080P BTW (screen set to Dot by Dot) everything connected via HDMI or COMP.

Could the CII do a better job for the signals ?
Perhaps i can switch from the VP50 to the CII.
Hope for some helpfull comments on this.[/QUOT
Are you saying that you cannot get a 576i signal from you humax using component? If you are only able to feed 576p to the vp50 you are getting very little benifit from the iscan. I am interested because I too have a 5000ex and was thinking of buying the vp50 but after reading your comments,I dont think that I will bother.Sounds like the Dragonfly or Crystalio would be best.
One final point,perhaps the 5000ex picture qaulity is so good that it does not need a vp at all.The picture that I get using sky sd with component thus sending 576i to the plasma is superb.I think that a demo of a vp before buying would be the safest bet.

It doesn't have that DVDO feature if that's what you mean - i.e. the ability to pull apart a badly deinterlaced image.
But it can accept properly progressive inputs (e.g. 1080p, 1080sf24, etc) over the HDMI inputs.
It can also accept progressive PC inputs over DVI-HDMI too - which is useful.
This is something that the last generation of VPs couldn't do.

Thanks for all your response. As suggested by the manual i'm feeding the VP50 now with a 576i res. to let the VP do all the work. I've connected the VP50 now with a composite, not the best cable BTW but anyhow to pass trhrough 576i PAL Sat TV. The results are worse compared to the feed of 1080i (for 576i material) via HDMI. I'm a bit lost in VP-space.

[/QUOTE]
Are you saying that you cannot get a 576i signal from you humax using component? If you are only able to feed 576p to the vp50 you are getting very little benifit from the iscan. I am interested because I too have a 5000ex and was thinking of buying the vp50 but after reading your comments,I dont think that I will bother.Sounds like the Dragonfly or Crystalio would be best.
One final point,perhaps the 5000ex picture qaulity is so good that it does not need a vp at all.The picture that I get using sky sd with component thus sending 576i to the plasma is superb.I think that a demo of a vp before buying would be the safest bet.[/QUOTE]

Hi thanks for your response. Indeed the PQ is fantastic specially from BBC HDTV material. But you always want the best (at least i do) The VP doesn't bring me that up till now despite all the changes in settings etc. (and not to forget the 3000 EUR investment) I agree with you on the demo part If I where you try the CII to conclude if you see differences.

Once the prep feature is enabled (seems like any day now) then you might be able to go back to using the 576p over HDMI option with good results.
Or wait for their EDID edit feature which might force 576i out of HDMI.

Otherwise try and get the best i signal you can - you mention Composite which would be awful, but hopefully you can get Component.

Are you saying that you cannot get a 576i signal from you humax using component? If you are only able to feed 576p to the vp50 you are getting very little benifit from the iscan. I am interested because I too have a 5000ex and was thinking of buying the vp50 but after reading your comments,I dont think that I will bother.Sounds like the Dragonfly or Crystalio would be best.
One final point,perhaps the 5000ex picture qaulity is so good that it does not need a vp at all.The picture that I get using sky sd with component thus sending 576i to the plasma is superb.I think that a demo of a vp before buying would be the safest bet.[/QUOTE]

Hi thanks for your response. Indeed the PQ is fantastic specially from BBC HDTV material. But you always want the best (at least i do) The VP doesn't bring me that up till now despite all the changes in settings etc. (and not to forget the 3000 EUR investment) I agree with you on the demo part If I where you try the CII to conclude if you see differences.[/QUOTE]
I have tried the Vantage and found no benifit with,I do have a home demo due with the mosquito/Dragonfly in the next week or so,will see if they improve.
You did not mention if you could get 576i with component and if you had used it with the vp50.

Just seen the best picture ever. I had King Kong HD DVD going thru the CII then to my ruby. Wow! :eek:

Are you saying that you cannot get a 576i signal from you humax using component? If you are only able to feed 576p to the vp50 you are .
I have tried the Vantage and found no benifit with,I do have a home demo due with the mosquito/Dragonfly in the next week or so,will see if they improve.
You did not mention if you could get 576i with component and if you had used it with the vp50.[/QUOTE]

No I cannot control 576i on component unfortunattely. I have to use composite or Scart but scart can not be send to de VP otherwise I would have tried it. I have to wait for the PreP I prosume.

No I cannot control 576i on component unfortunattely. I have to use composite or Scart but scart can not be send to de VP otherwise I would have tried it. I have to wait for the PreP I prosume.Have you tried using a SCART to RGBs cable? This allows you to have the 3 component colours out, Red, Green and Blue in RGB colour space and uses the Video (composite) line as the Sync line. If you can't get a SCART to RGBs cable, just use an SCART to RGB/Component cable and use a separate cable out of the Video outlet of the STB to the Sync input on the VP. From memory, the CII (and the VP50) have 5 or 4 inputs on their Component/RGBHV input connectors that allow you to connect the RGB and Sync signals in.

Have you tried using a SCART to RGBs cable? This allows you to have the 3 component colours out, Red, Green and Blue in RGB colour space and uses the Video (composite) line as the Sync line. If you can't get a SCART to RGBs cable, just use an SCART to RGB/Component cable and use a separate cable out of the Video outlet of the STB to the Sync input on the VP. From memory, the CII (and the VP50) have 5 or 4 inputs on their Component/RGBHV input connectors that allow you to connect the RGB and Sync signals in.

Thanks for your advice I'll try this and let you know the results! :)

Just seen the best picture ever. I had King Kong HD DVD going thru the CII then to my ruby. Wow! :eek:

Are you running HDMI audio from your HD DVD player through the CII? If so, what receiver are you using?

EDIT: Praise for a product is just as welcome as complaints for those of us doing prepurchase product research, but I just want to understand if your high praise for the product is based on a subset of the features.

I have done testing on audio thru the HDMI as well. And I have never had any audio drop outs. I understand complaining about a product is just as important as complimenting it. I have had the least complaints with the crystalio II... It has the best picture, the best userface, best remote, and is the best looking VP available...

I am curious to see how the CII compares in this weekends shoot out.

It will be interesting but I would find it more interesting if they were using HDMI ins and outs. Last I read they were comparing them all thru analog. Not the ideal way to compare these days... Oh well, maybe next shootout...

Maybe somebody will show up with a digital projector.

If they were closer to me I would be more than happy to drive one over to them. :)

joe,

Curiosity is a powerful force. :)

Actually Jim I don't have any curiosity anymore. I had all of the latest and greatest VPs they are testing and I know which is the best. After a 3 week stint with each one (a couple much longer) curiosity killed the cat (or in this case the other VPs)... :)

Actually Jim I don't have any curiosity anymore. I had all of the latest and greatest VPs they are testing and I know which is the best. After a 3 week stint with each one (a couple much longer) curiosity killed the cat (or in this case the other VPs)... :)

drumroll - and the winner is ???

(dumb question in a C2 thread) :rolleyes:

Michael

if they could only get 72 Hz (24Hz) to work properly

I agree. It will be fun doing either 72hz, 48hz or 24... Hopefully late this month we will have it...

Hi with 2 post I'm very new here. I'm planing to buy a VP and so all this discussions are very interesting and useful for me. Currently I'm split between the Vantage and the Crystalio2. Reading here I would go and buy the C2 immediately, but then there was a weekend "research" done by very experienced users which gives me some doubts.

(OK, here I wanted for respect put the URL of the other thread, but the system refused to allow it to me, sorry)

In number 123 madshi wrote:
The new VXP chip which will be used in the Radiance adds SD and HD compression noise reduction as well as improved random noise reduction algorithms. None of these algorithms will ever work on the older chip used in the Crystalio II.

In short: The Crystalio II in its current form will never be able to do compression noise reduction nor Anime cadence detection and there's nothing PixelMagic can do about that
(end of quote)

I think this doesn't sound so good.

Then I was also wondering that 3 extremely experienced persons couldn't make the Crystalio 2 get to work correctly (it showed too dark). They called it a lake of proper experience with this unit. Well so how much experience does somebody need to be able to use that unit if they could not?

I don't want to be polemic, I'm just confused how to compare this entusiastic thread here with the more skeptical one on the other side. I mean we don't talk about religion or taste, or do we?

We simply don't know what the cause of the incorrect blacks were. Maybe they'll get to the bottom of it, but it's not something I personally would worry about. It's not something I've heard anything about on other forums.

Setup of CII was a doddle - it took about 10 mins and there wasn't a lot else to do! I spent another 5 mins setting up dynamic VP and another 10 testing DCDi Versus VXP and that was it! There's a few things to play with too - the media player, NR, etc - but that's just fun :)

Re the algorithms - it's true about the anime cadence and newer NR stuff. DVDO is supposed to do better with Anime but doesn't currently have NR or Detail Enhancement.
Radiance may do good anime and also incorporate the newer NR/DE algs but we don't know for sure when yet.

I know what you mean about the religion thing - certainly these VP companies do seem to attract fans and detractors - I think it's because they are really complicated devices and you kind of build up a relationship with the device and the company. The dealers have helped a lot with this too - Lumagen first and then Pixel Magic really did change the market by having knowledgable dealers who are interested about absolute performance over everything else. I see this less with DVDO and I don't see it at all with Calibre.

Hi with 2 post I'm very new here. I'm planing to buy a VP and so all this discussions are very interesting and useful for me. Currently I'm split between the Vantage and the Crystalio2. Reading here I would go and buy the C2 immediately, but then there was a weekend "research" done by very experienced users which gives me some doubts.

(OK, here I wanted for respect put the URL of the other thread, but the system refused to allow it to me, sorry)

In number 123 madshi wrote:
The new VXP chip which will be used in the Radiance adds SD and HD compression noise reduction as well as improved random noise reduction algorithms. None of these algorithms will ever work on the older chip used in the Crystalio II.

In short: The Crystalio II in its current form will never be able to do compression noise reduction nor Anime cadence detection and there's nothing PixelMagic can do about that
(end of quote)

I think this doesn't sound so good.

Then I was also wondering that 3 extremely experienced persons couldn't make the Crystalio 2 get to work correctly (it showed too dark). They called it a lake of proper experience with this unit. Well so how much experience does somebody need to be able to use that unit if they could not?

I don't want to be polemic, I'm just confused how to compare this entusiastic thread here with the more skeptical one on the other side. I mean we don't talk about religion or taste, or do we?

I've had the C 3800 since it first was released a few months ago and I can say that it's pretty easy to use. I'm not sure what the reference is to it "showing too dark." The comments that Madshi made are, I am sure, accurate since Madshi is a very knowledgable person. They relate to nosie reduction which, if you are really serious (and have the extra cash), you can do better with a Mosquito anyway--which is what I do. I don't think the noise reduction issue calls into question the quality of the CII. And of course, there is always going to be another and better version of the chip/processor coming out in the the next generation. I'm not saying anything against the Radiance. If I were in the market now I would seriously consider any VP that has a newer gennum chip but I'm also not saying that I would choose the one with the newer chip just because it is newer. That's a different question.

The only tricky part of dealing with the CII can be, but is not always, getting it 1:1 mapped with your monitor but that largely depends on the monitor and has nothing to do with the CII. In fact, you will have the same issue with any VP on some monitors. You need to get 1:1 mapping so that you bypass the internal processor of your monitor. Otherwise you defeat the purpose of having an external VP. I happen to have the new 65 inch 1080p panasonic plasma which has a 1:1 pixel map mode and that makes it simple to get 1:1 mapping. I also did not have a large problem getting the mapping with my panny 508uk plasma although I did have to fiddle with the timings a bit.

What has been said here about the media player in the 3800 is correct. It is still not past the beta stage in my view. I recently downloaded the latest firmware which is suposed to have full MP functionality but I have not been able to get the MP to work yet becuase there is not a decent set of instructions out yet. In any case, I'm sure I could have got it up and running if I were willing to fiddle around with it but I've got too many other things going on now so I'm waiting for PMS to put out the MP manual which they say should be ready in a few weeks.

Other than that I am totally pleased with my purchase. The processing results in great PQ and the OSD is really well-designed and well-presented. The CII manual is also quite good.

Based on my experience with this unit I recommend the CII without hesitation.

I think I may get one. Is it worth it to get the Pro version? I am not sure what the HDSDI inputs would be used for, and does the precision clock make that much difference?

I don't currently have use for the media player, and I am thinking that having the internal hard drive just adds something to go wrong.

On the other hand, I do like to get the very best, but I am just not sure if I want to pay an extra grand for the pro.

Edit: OK nevermind, I just ordered the Pro. :)

Hi Jack,

Just thought I'd add some thoughts.

Not achieving 1:1 pixel mapping doesn't actually defeat the purpose of having an external video processor. They do more than just scale you know....and in some cases you don't want to pixel map.

Also I am unsure how you can claim that a Mosquito does superior noise reduction to that in a chipset that has not yet been seen implimented anywhere......

Gordon

Thank you tryingtimes and Jack D for your "down-to-earth" comments; its a good feeling to read something so clean without weapons ready to shoot.

Nevertheless I go spying also in the other thread, and again Madshi wrote there that the present HDMI version limits the data transmission to 8bit and it will not be possible to updtae it on the C2. Do you feel this as limit?

(Sorry as newcomer for me it is still not alowed to post here the URL)

In my other life I run also a software company which deals with 3D building simulation, and to be honest if we would limit the colors to 8 bit we would have difficulties to sell.

Maybe this question is exagerated and not the right place here to put, but who knows?
Thanks anyway

Hi Jack,

Just thought I'd add some thoughts.

Not achieving 1:1 pixel mapping doesn't actually defeat the purpose of having an external video processor. They do more than just scale you know....and in some cases you don't want to pixel map.

Also I am unsure how you can claim that a Mosquito does superior noise reduction to that in a chipset that has not yet been seen implimented anywhere......

Gordon


Gordon,

OK, fair enough about the claim that the Mosquito would do better than something we haven't seen. I retract my statement. I still don't think, however, I would base my decision about a VP on how good it did at noise reduction.

Re the 1:1: it's pretty important for PQ but I suppose I did overstate a bit.

Thank you tryingtimes and Jack D for your "down-to-earth" comments; its a good feeling to read something so clean without weapons ready to shoot.

Nevertheless I go spying also in the other thread, and again Madshi wrote there that the present HDMI version limits the data transmission to 8bit and it will not be possible to updtae it on the C2. Do you feel this as limit?

(Sorry as newcomer for me it is still not alowed to post here the URL)

In my other life I run also a software company which deals with 3D building simulation, and to be honest if we would limit the colors to 8 bit we would have difficulties to sell.

Maybe this question is exagerated and not the right place here to put, but who knows?
Thanks anyway

Not sure the context of what Madshi said but, in general, he usually knows what he is talking about. I don't know if I feel that the 8bit thing is a limit. I suppose it is on the face of it but until I see something that uses higher bit rate and a VP that can process it, I guess I won't know how deprived I am. :D I'm sure there are going to be better pieces of equipment down the line (not just VPs but monitors as well). Just a matter of when, I suppose.

I think I may get one. Is it worth it to get the Pro version? I am not sure what the HDSDI inputs would be used for, and does the precision clock make that much difference?

I don't currently have use for the media player, and I am thinking that having the internal hard drive just adds something to go wrong.

On the other hand, I do like to get the very best, but I am just not sure if I want to pay an extra grand for the pro.

Honestly, I'm not sure I would get the pro version if I had to do it now. I think it might pay off down the line a bit. The HDSDI could payoff if HDSDI mods on STBs and BR/HD DVD players become more available. I can't really say much about the media player until I get mine working. I can imagine that it could be very cool being able to link the CII to your network and play videos that you downloaded from your computer on your home theater set up with CII processing. For the moment, however, what I'm doing with the CII pro I could do with the 3300.

Well HDMI 1.3 may well bring improvements. But there is no receiving device available right now that has that capability - so we just can't tell.
If Pixel Magic wanted to put HDMI 1.3 in there today - they probably couldn't due to lack of supply + it would take quite a bit of time to come to market and iron out all the bugs, etc.

Last I heard even the Lumagen which is due in a few months time wasn't going to make it with HDMI 1.3 at launch although they have stated there will be an upgrade path.

Before it will make much of a difference, we will also need display devices with HDMI 1.3 too, and again - these have no firm dates + supporting HDMI1.3 doesn't necessarily mean it will have all the potential improvements.

At the end of the day - if you want to buy a VP today you have to choose between the HDP/HDQ, VP50, Crystalio II and Vantage HD. It's a great choice to have!

Madshi's comments are always very well observed. 8bit is the current input limit of all the current display devices, so it's not really something that I would worry about for now. Even Madshi has decided not to wait for all these new features indefinitely and took up DVDO on their upgrade offer for the VP50 I think (Madshi please forgive me and correct me if I'm wrong).

There will always be something just around the corner. If you can wait, then great - personally I'm sticking with my 768p crt projector until digitals beat it in EVERY area - I feel comfortable in my decision - and ultimately you have be comfortable with yours.


Regarding the 3800 model - tough call - I'm not sure that I'll be going with HD-SDI unless it becomes more available and to be completely honest, the HD Mediabox looks 90% as good via HDMI and currently supports more formats - but it's a little less automated (resolution detection). However I will ditch it as soon as the internal one adds .avi support.

Gordon or anybody else,

Why wouldn't you want 1:1 pixel matching?

Ideally you would.
But the point was that even if you can't get it on your display - there are still advantages to using a VP

Honestly, I'm not sure I would get the pro version if I had to do it now. I think it might pay off down the line a bit. The HDSDI could payoff if HDSDI mods on STBs and BR/HD DVD players become more available. I can't really say much about the media player until I get mine working. I can imagine that it could be very cool being able to link the CII to your network and play videos that you downloaded from your computer on your home theater set up with CII processing. For the moment, however, what I'm doing with the CII pro I could do with the 3300.

I have the 3800 and the PQ when playing my standard def dvd's (after ripping them) is much better then the Pioneer 989Avi (Elite79 us model I think). I am seriously thinking of selling the Pioneer. That alone would justify the higher price....

Hey Joe (or anyone else out there),

I can't get my display to show that its in 1:1 pixel mapping using the test images on the CII.

I have an HP MD6580N DLP set which is 1920 x 1080p. Further it accepts a 1080p input over HDMI. The CII is connected via HDMI and set to output 1080p.
When I run the CII test patterns-- it shows its not 1:1. :(
Further more when the HP receives a signal over HDMI-- it greys out any adjustments to the screen size unlike when it gets a VGA signal (but no 1080p over that).

Any suggestions??

Thanks.

Lore

I decided to get the 3800 due to the possibility of future HDSDI mods, and the media player is intriguing, if they get it working well.

I have the 3800 and the PQ when playing my standard def dvd's (after ripping them) is much better then the Pioneer 989Avi (Elite79 us model I think). I am seriously thinking of selling the Pioneer. That alone would justify the higher price....

1. You mean that you ripped the SD DVDs to the 3800 media player? That's cool. I like the idea of ripping all DVDs so you can play anything without having to go get the disc and stick it in the player. I've done that with my CD collection as I have a music server now. Would be very cool to do it with videos as well.

2. You are saying the PQ of playing it off the 3800 MP is better than playing it on the Pio and processing the image on the 3800?

Hey Joe (or anyone else out there),

I can't get my display to show that its in 1:1 pixel mapping using the test images on the CII.

I have an HP MD6580N DLP set which is 1920 x 1080p. Further it accepts a 1080p input over HDMI. The CII is connected via HDMI and set to output 1080p.
When I run the CII test patterns-- it shows its not 1:1. :(
Further more when the HP receives a signal over HDMI-- it greys out any adjustments to the screen size unlike when it gets a VGA signal (but no 1080p over that).

Any suggestions??

Thanks.

Lore

The standard procedure is to put up the vertical pixel map screen from the CII. Then adjust the horiztonal size of the image from your TV until the image snaps in. Then put up the horizontal CII pattern and adjust the vertical size of the image from you TV. If you can't get it to snap in that way, then you have to start fiddling with the timings (like vertical and horizontal front and rear porch, etc).

If you can't do any size adjustments using HDMI on your DLP I have no idea what the issue is there. You can't snap in the test patterns if you can't adjust the H and V size. Maybe you can do it from within the service menu of the DLP? I don't know anything about DLPs so I can't say anything definitive. Do you have a DVI input option and does that allow you to adjust H and V size? That could be another option.

I decided to get the 3800 due to the possibility of future HDSDI mods, and the media player is intriguing, if they get it working well.

That was my thinking as well when I got the 3800.

1. You mean that you ripped the SD DVDs to the 3800 media player? That's cool. I like the idea of ripping all DVDs so you can play anything without having to go get the disc and stick it in the player. I've done that with my CD collection as I have a music server now. Would be very cool to do it with videos as well.

2. You are saying the PQ of playing it off the 3800 MP is better than playing it on the Pio and processing the image on the 3800?

1 Yes, no problems (used dvddecrypter) The Mediaplayer is still pretty buggy and I cant get .iso working so for now I rip them using the IFO option in dvddecrypter.
Finally found an USB disk that works with the CII ,so I rip the files to the USB disk and plug that into the CII, nice :) (you can also copy and paste between the USB disk and the CII internal harddisk)

2 Yes and quite a lot better (I am using short and expensive HDMI cables so that should :rolleyes: not be the reason for the better image) Less noise, less ringing without losing sharpness. I like it a lot

Hey Joe (or anyone else out there),

I can't get my display to show that its in 1:1 pixel mapping using the test images on the CII.

I have an HP MD6580N DLP set which is 1920 x 1080p. Further it accepts a 1080p input over HDMI. The CII is connected via HDMI and set to output 1080p.
When I run the CII test patterns-- it shows its not 1:1. :(
Further more when the HP receives a signal over HDMI-- it greys out any adjustments to the screen size unlike when it gets a VGA signal (but no 1080p over that).

Any suggestions??

Thanks.

Lore

Had the same problem with an 1080p LCD, was solved by making a custom output resolution on the CII.
In my case I was getting PP while connecting my HTPC directly to the LCD but not with the CII in between. I copied the timings the videocard used to get PP to the custom output resolution on the CII and that worked.

1 Yes, no problems (used dvddecrypter) The Mediaplayer is still pretty buggy and I cant get .iso working so for now I rip them using the IFO option in dvddecrypter.
Finally found an USB disk that works with the CII ,so I rip the files to the USB disk and plug that into the CII, nice :) (you can also copy and paste between the USB disk and the CII internal harddisk)

2 Yes and quite a lot better (I am using short and expensive HDMI cables so that should :rolleyes: not be the reason for the better image) Less noise, less ringing without losing sharpness. I like it a lot

interesting. IIRC PMS says that the internal MP is not supposed to work via USB. You seem to be out on the edge of experimentation with this thing. hopefully some day soon PMS is going to get it to work smoothly.

interesting. IIRC PMS says that the internal MP is not supposed to work via USB. You seem to be out on the edge of experimentation with this thing.

Not really ;)

"Firmware 1.24 Notes
- Support USB external storage.
(Partition Format: PC; File system:FAT32,EXT2,UDF,NTFS(read only))
- Support UTF-8 encoded file name. (Chinese/Japanese/Korean/Western)
- Support auto aspect ratio for DVD (mixed 4:3/16x9 content auto switch not function) and MPEG2 media

Pixel Magic Support."

Hi Flip

The improvement you are seeing using ripped DVD on the internal media player rather than using the Pioneer DVD via HDMI wont be due to better HDMI cables, it is more likely because you are avoiding any possible HDMI transformation/conversion issues, the MPEG2 video is instead being decoded internally within the video processor itself. You are 100% correct though about the price savings of not running a seperate DVD player though, it is a point worth noting when figuring out whether or not to go for the 3800 versus the 3300.

Not really ;)

"Firmware 1.24 Notes
- Support USB external storage.
(Partition Format: PC; File system:FAT32,EXT2,UDF,NTFS(read only))
- Support UTF-8 encoded file name. (Chinese/Japanese/Korean/Western)
- Support auto aspect ratio for DVD (mixed 4:3/16x9 content auto switch not function) and MPEG2 media

Pixel Magic Support."

Oh. I need to pay a bit more attention. So you can rip a DVD on your computer, copy it to a usb flash drive and dump it on your CII MP. That's nice although a bit cumbersome. It would ideal to be able to copy it via the LAN. I tried for about 30 minutes to get my MP to see my computer hard drive via my LAN and failed. I was told you need a password, etc. That's when I gave up until PMS puts out a manual. I just wasn't into experimentation. In any case, most of my vids from the internet are .avi and the MP doesn't support those yet. Honestly, I've never ripped a video DVD but now you caught my attention. thx.

Hi Flip

The improvement you are seeing using ripped DVD on the internal media player rather than using the Pioneer DVD via HDMI wont be due to better HDMI cables, it is more likely because you are avoiding any possible HDMI transformation/conversion issues, the MPEG2 video is instead being decoded internally within the video processor itself. You are 100% correct though about the price savings of not running a seperate DVD player though, it is a point worth noting when figuring out whether or not to go for the 3800 versus the 3300.

No. I think he was saying that any improvement in watching the DVD directly from the MP was NOT because he used a cheapo connection when viewing from the DVD player (because he used a high quality HDMI cable). In other words, it was because of the processing of the CII directly from the media player for the reasons you suggest.

Oh. I need to pay a bit more attention. So you can rip a DVD on your computer, copy it to a usb flash drive and dump it on you CII MP. That's nice although a bit cumbersome. It would ideal to be able to copy it via the LAN. I tried for about 30 minutes to get my MP to see my computer hard drive via my LAN and failed. I was told you need a password, etc. That's when I gave up until PMS puts out a manual. I just wasn't into experimentation. In any case, most of my vids from the internet are .avi or .mpg and the MP doesn't support those yet. Honestly, I've never ripped a video DVD but now you caught my attention. thx.

I have the CII working with NFS and FTP (there are a bunch of threads on the PMS forum) , some bugs/quirks are still not resolved though.
I you use NFS you can rip a dvd on your computer and play directly from that location on the Mediaplayer.

I apologize for being to enthusiastic about the crystalio II. I do not want to sound like a fanboy by all means. Truth be told if the other VPs or another one offered as much as the CII did then this would be a ____ VP user's report. And also in regards to the other thread they were not even using the HDMI ins and outs. That to me is huge when it comes to these newer VPs. Also, I have never had any "dark" issues with my set up... I do not know why they were getting that...

No. I think he was saying that any improvement in watching the DVD directly from the MP was NOT because he used a cheapo connection when viewing from the DVD player (because he used a high quality HDMI cable). In other words, it was because of the processing of the CII directly from the media player for the reasons you suggest.

Yeah, the cables "shouldnt" explain the difference (but I havent tested it) I was pleasantly surprised by the PQ because the 989 on its own allready has an excellent picture

I have the CII working with NFS and FTP (there are a bunch of threads on the PMS forum) , some bugs/quirks are still not resolved though.
I you use NFS you can rip a dvd on your computer and play directly from that location on the Mediaplayer.

I know people have had success. I guess I've been dealing with some other issues on my system and haven't wanted to get into the MP given that it requires a bit of digging on the PMS site to know what to do. Once PMS gets out the manual I will get into it. I'm not in a massive hurry, yet. :D

I apologize for being to enthusiastic about the crystalio II. I do not want to sound like a fanboy by all means. Truth be told if the other VPs or another one offered as much as the CII did then this would be a ____ VP user's report. And also in regards to the other thread they were not even using the HDMI ins and outs. That to me is huge when it comes to these newer VPs. Also, I have never had any "dark" issues with my set up... I do not know why they were getting that...


As far as I can tell, no one was flaming you for being too enthusiastic. :)

Thanks, I read a post last page saying the other thread was different then my enthusiastic
thread. I just want others to know that I am not a pixel magic cheerleader and that I still am excited about my CII after a few weeks! :eek:

Thanks, I read a post last page saying the other thread was different then my enthusiastic
thread. I just want others to know that I am not a pixel magic cheerleader and that I still am excited about my CII after a few weeks! :eek:

I guess I've become jaded. :D I just take for granted the excellent PQ that I get from the CII now. I've got a few friends with plasmas who don't have an external VP and I have to bite my tounge when I go over to their places so as not to beg them to get a CII. Not everyone is as fanatic as some of us on this site. ;)

I guess I've become jaded. :D I just take for granted the excellent PQ that I get from the CII now. I've got a few friends with plasmas who don't have an external VP and I have to bite my tounge when I go over to their places so as not to beg them to get a CII. Not everyone is as fanatic as some of us on this site. ;)

Maybe you can help me understand how this works. How does the Crystalio bypass the internal VP in the plasma and what requirements are necessary of the plasma. Can you use HDMI?

Maybe you can help me understand how this works. How does the Crystalio bypass the internal VP in the plasma and what requirements are necessary of the plasma. Can you use HDMI?

First off, I'm sure there are more knowledgeable people here who can explain it much better than I can. Please someone chime in if I get something wrong.

In theory, if you send the signal to your plasma at the plasma's native resolution and with the exact timings that the plasma "expects" then no further processing will be needed and the plasma's internal (and inferior) processor will not do any futher processing--something which would surely deteriorate the PQ. It should be as simple as that.

For reasons that I do not understand, many plasmas will not accept a signal, even at the native resoultion, without reprocessing it. This was the case, for example, with all of Pansonics consumer models until the 1080p version which just recently came out. One of the reasons many people preferred Panny's commercial panels is that you could get 1:1 mapping. Sometimes it was tricky, however, even with the commercial panels--especially via the DVI blade. It was possible but not quite as easy as it was going in via RGBVH. Via RGBVH it was really easy; you just sent the NR to the panel, adjusted the H and V size from the PDP and that was it. The DVI blade was harder for some reason and, not only did you have to send the NR, you had to play around a bit with the various timings of the signal to get it right. I only know a little about Pannys since I've had three generations of them. I'm not sure about the issues in this regard with other brands.

It has nothing to do with the CII or any other VP. It has to do with the internal electronics of the PDP. I think that some VPs do not have customizable output resoultions but the CII does. You can customize the resoultion and also the timings to make sure that you can match what your PDP wants. With some panels you may need to customize the output signal to bypass the internal procesor. With others, you might get lucky and just need to send the standard preset output. In any case, I guess it is a good idea to do some homework before you buy (VP and TV).

In theory there is no reason that you cannot use HDMI but in the case of the new 1080p commercial panny (which is the one I have) they have not yet released an HDMI blade that can accept 1080p. The panel, however, comes with a DVI board that accepts 1080p and that is what I'm using.

The neat thing about the new 9th generation 1080p pannys is that they actually have a 1:1 pixel mapped mode (on both the commercial and consumer) that turns off the internal scaler. I tested it out with the CII by putting up the test patterns and turning on and off this 1:1 pixel map function on the PDP. Even with the NR going to the PDP (via DVI) the patterns do not lock if the 1:1 mode is turned off and they do lock in once you turn it on. The only odd thing about my Panny 1080 p is that I have to send it a 1920x1084 signal or else I get a horizontal noise line that cannot be hidden by overscanning (This is where the fully customizable output of the CII comes in handy). It must have something to do with the way Panasonic implemented something on the set. It is beyond me to explain. All I know is that it works and even at 1920x1084 the CII test patterns are locked.

Hope this helps.

Thanks Jack. Video processors are one of the few products that you really can't demo and have to spend a lot of money on faith. I cannot find a single reseller in the Chicago area of any of the manufacturers that are able to demo or in most cases even stock the product. So, you can't find out if something is compatible or even works.

Thanks Jack. Video processors are one of the few products that you really can't demo and have to spend a lot of money on faith. I cannot find a single reseller in the Chicago area of any of the manufacturers that are able to demo or in most cases even stock the product. So, you can't find out if something is compatible or even works.

Well there is a lot of information on this forum and you can always purchase one after some research. If you don't like what it does for your system you can return it. I think most places have at least a 30-day return. The main thing is that some TVs just don't accept their NR no matter what you do and for others that do accept NR it is not just plug and play. You have to be willing to fiddle with it and learn a few things before you get it right. If you are really lucky, however, you might just be able to get it working within a half hour. I'm pretty sure that once you do get one to work correctly with your set up you will not want to do without it. The first step is to investigate your TV or the TV you plan on purchasing. Then you can read up on the threads of the various VPs to see which one you think will fit your needs.

The first step is to investigate your TV or the TV you plan on purchasing. Then you can read up on the threads of the various VPs to see which one you think will fit your needs.

Are there any lists of the differences between the major models? That would be a great sticky that could maybe be modified once a year?

Is there a list of all the websites for the major brands?

Thank you!

Shane D

Shane that's a good idea. There should be a sticky thread which lists all the current VPs features. That and pros and cons. Many could benefit from reading it and it would make searching for threads much easier... :)

Are there any lists of the differences between the major models? That would be a great sticky that could maybe be modified once a year?

Is there a list of all the websites for the major brands?

Thank you!

Shane D

I don't think there is anything like that. There aren't really that many VPs. Let's see: Crystalio (Pixel Magic Systems), Radiance (Lumagen), VP50 or something like that (DVDO), Dragonfly (Algolith)..I guess the Ternaex Mini might be an option too. There are probably some others but those are the main ones with the new processors that handle HD. There are two main new chips, the Realta and the Gennum. The CII uses the Gennum and also the older Faroujda for SD if you want or you can configure it to use the Gennum for SD too. I can't remember anymore which of the others use the G or R chips.

I was in the same position as you when I was in the market. I made up a spreadsheet to list the key differences in each one at that time but none of the machines with the new chips had been marketed at that time, so a lot of it was rumor, etc. You just have to find the threads for each of those and dig around. Most of the info you want will be in those threads.

Oh, there is one other little hassle that you might want to think about. It's on my mind because I just spent the last few weeks dealing with it. Once you get your VP you want the signal from your STB and DVD to be as unprocessed as possible so that you let the VP do all the work. Comcast in my area provides a Moto HD STB and the stupid thing does not pass through HD signals. You have to set it to output 1080i or 720p. So a signal in the other resoultion will be processed by the Moto. In my case, I set it to 1080i so when I was watching 720p stations, the crap box would interlace it and upscale it to 1080i. So stupid. So I finally got an HD Tivo box which has other advantages over the Moto box but most importantly it passes through all signals. Well worth it but it is another expenditure. I think the Scientific Atlantic boxes provided by some cable companies do passthrough. Just something to keep in mind down the road.

With SD DVD players you might want to consider going out via SDI which is the best way to get the signal unadulterated to your VP. Some newer SD DVDs send out a 480i signal via HDMI. For the HD DVD players the main issue is that you want them to be able to output 1080p which is the native resolution of the DVD. My local dealer is letting me play with the Samsung Blu-ray and the stupid thing does not have 1080p activated. So it interlaces the native 1080p signal and outputs 1080i. I think that will be fixed in the next gen of these units.

The main thing is that some TVs just don't accept their NR no matter what you do ....snip...

That needs to be made a header in a sticky thread all by itself.

I second that. Gets very frustrating to buy a set and a VP. Later to find out that your VP can't get control of the displayed pic. There must be a sticky thread with a list of displays in which there respective owner state whether they succeeded or not to get perfect 1-1 pixel mapping. if yes, then they should also specifiy the interface (DVI/HDMI/Component/RGBHV Analogue..), the timing (standard or custom) used to get there.

The neat thing about the new 9th generation 1080p pannys is that they actually have a 1:1 pixel mapped mode (on both the commercial and consumer) that turns off the internal scaler. I tested it out with the CII by putting up the test patterns and turning on and off this 1:1 pixel map function on the PDP. Even with the NR going to the PDP (via DVI) the patterns do not lock if the 1:1 mode is turned off and they do lock in once you turn it on. The only odd thing about my Panny 1080 p is that I have to send it a 1920x1084 signal or else I get a horizontal noise line that cannot be hidden by overscanning (This is where the fully customizable output of the CII comes in handy). It must have something to do with the way Panasonic implemented something on the set. It is beyond me to explain. All I know is that it works and even at 1920x1084 the CII test patterns are locked.


Jack, is it possible to post a step-by-step guide of what you did to "marry" the Crystalio 2 and the 65" Panny that you have? What settings did you change in the C2, e.g. Front Porch, Back Porch, etc. I will be getting this combo in the near future and feel that this information will not only be vital to me but to others as well.

Thanks in advance!

I second that. Gets very frustrating to buy a set and a VP. Later to find out that your VP can't get control of the displayed pic. There must be a sticky thread with a list of displays in which there respective owner state whether they succeeded or not to get perfect 1-1 pixel mapping. if yes, then they should also specifiy the interface (DVI/HDMI/Component/RGBHV Analogue..), the timing (standard or custom) used to get there.

Does this thread help: Native Rate Master Thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=394174) ?

:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

4 hours ago I was ready to send the order for a C2 to the Italian distributor, really I came today morning with that idea in my office, BUT then I read the first "by the way" question on problems how to connect the VP HDMI 1080p output to the HDMI input of a specific projector. Then I read the answers, the comments, the ideas how to personalize the timings to meet the TV or projectors needs. :eek: I thought we are talking about consumer products, but what I have to learn is that this field is more something like what the PCs where in the early eighties. Indeed at that time when I wanted to connect the AppleII to some different monitor I had to pass sleepless nights to adjust the things. Is this industry still on that level?

Ok this means for me:
1) I give even more respect to all of you who invests all your time to help others, for people like me its gold!
2) the use of the term "easy to set up" probably has a very different meaning for you then for me :) :)
3) I have to ask the Italian distributor if my RP Sony 55W2000 will work in 1080p with it

What is the most important thing for me are the colors, not so much the brilantness of the colors (I didn't buy a Plasma or LCD) but to study the decisions the directors made in composing the picture colorwise. I used to have an Electrohome beamer before.

stefanottt,

If your main objective on your 55W2000 is accurate colors, it would seem that the solution there would be to get it calibrated at the service level.

Does this thread help: Native Rate Master Thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=394174) ?

Yes, something along the line of this thread, with more details regarding interface, a tabular format, and sticky!

The more forum members contribute to it, the more usefull it gets. Thus I vote for it to be sticky in order to get the proper amount of exposure.

Thanks JimP, maybe I have difficulties to explain mayself. I don't have problems with the colors now, but when a picture gets scaled up to 1080p it changes the colors somehow. It is the same as with the edges, there you want an inteligent algorithimic which does extrapolation to avoid the iregolarity on the lines, a kind of antialising, right? Well I suppose that this inteligent VPs do also a kind of pixel-color-interpolation when they scale up the image, otherwise you get color discontiunities on the surfaces. Or an other negative effect I just saw yesterday when it was the RP of Sony which scaled up the image from a DVD: often the face when it was half in the shadow fall apruptley to an other color-tone, ie, the right side was good skin-tone, but the shadow-side was more in the green tone. I suppose or at least hope that with a good VP this should less happen. Thanks anyway.

stefanottt,

The color shifting sounds like your grayscale is off causing more of a color shift in lower IREs. Might want to check it with the cross grayscale pattern off of DVE.


I can understand you wanting to improve the jaggies. I played with that for a good part of the day yesterday. Don't overlook just outputting plain old 480i/p and having the display do all the scaling. For the price of the some of these processors, you might want to consider selling your current display and getting the XBR2 (SXRD version). I think its suppose to have a better video processor in it. Actually, you could probably keep your current TV and buy the 60" XBR2 for the price of the crystalio II. :-)

Jack, is it possible to post a step-by-step guide of what you did to "marry" the Crystalio 2 and the 65" Panny that you have? What settings did you change in the C2, e.g. Front Porch, Back Porch, etc. I will be getting this combo in the near future and feel that this information will not only be vital to me but to others as well.

Thanks in advance!

Hey! South Africa! I lived in Mozambique for three years and visited SA a lot. Some beautiful places there. :D

If you are getting the CII and the Th-65PF9UK you are not going to have any problems. Once you get an HDMI-DVI cable and connect the CII to the Panny, all you have to do is start with setting your CII to output the pre-set 1080p and then turn on the 1:1 pixel map mode on the Panny from the set up menu. Pull up the vertical and horizontal test patterns on your CII and you will see that they are perfectly snapped in. Then bring up the overscan pattern on the CII and adjust the V and H positions on your TV to make sure that you have the image lined up perfectly. That's it.

If you notice the horizontal noise line at the top or bottom of your screen with this set up (It happened to me and I know to one other guy who got his Panny the same time as I did.), you have an extra step to perform. Go into the output section of the CII menu, bring up the output resoultion screen, click on "customize", go to the vertical active pixels box and change it from 1080 to 1084. Bingo. That's it. You should be done in less than 30 minutes.

With this set up its perfect for HD broadcasts, but I notice on some SD programs some noise at the top or bottom of the screen so I set up a video profile in the CII in which there is 4 percent overscan. You can recall that profile with the touch of a button. That cleans up any garbage lines. I also set up another video profile with 23 percent overscan for HD movies that are in 235:1 ratio so that the movie fills the screen. That is a matter of choice as you lose some of the image but you get rid of the bars on the top and bottom of the image. I prefer immersion and am willing to lose a bit of the picture.

Of course there are a lot of other settings on the CII that you can play around with for color, black and white levels, etc. but we were mainly talking about getting 1:1 mapping.

(Quote) JimP
I can understand you wanting to improve the jaggies. I played with that for a good part of the day yesterday. Don't overlook just outputting plain old 480i/p and having the display do all the scaling. For the price of the some of these processors, you might want to consider selling your current display and getting the XBR2 (SXRD version). I think its suppose to have a better video processor in it. Actually, you could probably keep your current TV and buy the 60" XBR2 for the price of the crystalio II. :-)
(End quote)

I have still to understand how to put the quotes into a box, maybe tomorrow I sit down and find out:)

If I understand well then also the European A2000 are the XBR2-s, so I should have already the better processer inside... Anyway I just found out that there is a thread about the xxA2000 with 6840 posts (228 pages) to read.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=701578&page=228&pp=30

Hmmm, I probably will have to take 2 weeks holyday now and try to read all of them :) :) Thanks to everybody for the comments and have a pleasant Thanksgivingday

Shane that's a good idea. There should be a sticky thread which lists all the current VPs features. That and pros and cons. Many could benefit from reading it and it would make searching for threads much easier... :)

It would be great to just have a list of the highlights of each. Strength and weakness, plus web sites? It would save time for newbies reading some VERY long threads. Especially if they have a specific goal in mind, and would not buy several models because of this.

Shane D

I don't think there is anything like that. There aren't really that many VPs. Let's see: Crystalio (Pixel Magic Systems), Radiance (Lumagen), VP50 or something like that (DVDO), Dragonfly (Algolith)..I guess the Ternaex Mini might be an option too. There are probably some others but those are the main ones with the new processors that handle HD. There are two main new chips, the Realta and the Gennum. The CII uses the Gennum and also the older Faroujda for SD if you want or you can configure it to use the Gennum for SD too. I can't remember anymore which of the others use the G or R chips.

There is also another company that is having a Powerbuy right now. heir special is less than a Denon DVD player. Is that a good deal? I don't know due to my ignorance on VP's. After a month or two I will develop a crude understanding of VP's, what they do, and the best model for me.

I was in the same position as you when I was in the market. I made up a spreadsheet to list the key differences in each one at that time but none of the machines with the new chips had been marketed at that time, so a lot of it was rumor, etc. You just have to find the threads for each of those and dig around. Most of the info you want will be in those threads.

I know there are no short cuts to expertise, and this may appear lazy to you, but here is my point:
I just bought a new JVC 56FH97 for my home theatre. I do not use a projector. I do not view PAL discs. I do not download movies, or run a HTPC. I do not rip my own DVD's or make my own movies. And lastly, I do NOT want to be constantly tinkering and adjusting equipment.
Now if there was a list that I could use to narrow down my choices to one, and perhaps two models best suited to my needs, then I would dig in. Much as I did for buying the TV.
I.E. Is the Key Digital sale a GREAT deal, or a ripoff, or neither?

Just a newbie trying to learn without having to read ALL the threads.

Shane D

I know there are no short cuts to expertise, and this may appear lazy to you, but here is my point:
I just bought a new JVC 56FH97 for my home theatre. I do not use a projector. I do not view PAL discs. I do not download movies, or run a HTPC. I do not rip my own DVD's or make my own movies. And lastly, I do NOT want to be constantly tinkering and adjusting equipment.
Now if there was a list that I could use to narrow down my choices to one, and perhaps two models best suited to my needs, then I would dig in. Much as I did for buying the TV.
I.E. Is the Key Digital sale a GREAT deal, or a ripoff, or neither?

Just a newbie trying to learn without having to read ALL the threads.

Shane D

I don't know much about the iSync. It looks like it only does fixed output resolutions. No custom timings or resoultions. That could be a drawback. I tried to access the specs sheet but I couldn't get to the document. I don't know which processing it has. Hard to say much more. There is a short thread on it in this forum: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=749088&page=2&pp=30&highlight=isync. From what they are saying there it is clearly a step below the CII, Radiance and maybe the DVDO but it is also very cheap with the power buy. Could be a good way to dip your toe in the waters but it totally depends on your budget and your preferences. I generally tend to go for top of the line as much as possible because I know I always regret it if I don't (it's just me) but I also spend way too much on this stuff. :D

I know there are no short cuts to expertise, and this may appear lazy to you, but here is my point:
I just bought a new JVC 56FH97 for my home theatre. I do not use a projector. I do not view PAL discs. I do not download movies, or run a HTPC. I do not rip my own DVD's or make my own movies. And lastly, I do NOT want to be constantly tinkering and adjusting equipment.
Now if there was a list that I could use to narrow down my choices to one, and perhaps two models best suited to my needs, then I would dig in. Much as I did for buying the TV.
I.E. Is the Key Digital sale a GREAT deal, or a ripoff, or neither?

Just a newbie trying to learn without having to read ALL the threads.

Shane D

As noted in the post above, there is a thread on the iSync Pro. Someone just received one and has posted some initial comments, with more to follow.

Early observations are fairly positive.

I don't know much about the iSync. It looks like it only does fixed output resolutions. No custom timings or resoultions. That could be a drawback. I tried to access the specs sheet but I couldn't get to the document. I don't know which processing it has. Hard to say much more. There is a short thread on it in this forum: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=749088&page=2&pp=30&highlight=isync. From what they are saying there it is clearly a step below the CII, Radiance and maybe the DVDO but it is also very cheap with the power buy. Could be a good way to dip your toe in the waters but it totally depends on your budget and your preferences. I generally tend to go for top of the line as much as possible because I know I always regret it if I don't (it's just me) but I also spend way too much on this stuff. :D

Thanks for the response! So, ISync is new/unknown quantity?

As far as a budget goes, I don't really have one. This little adventure started in July with me looking for a better pic quality. I started looking at upconverting players over component. As of November it has evolved to a new JVC TV, Expressvu high def satellite dish, and Bello TV stand. I kind of laugh about it, but the better half sees no humor in this at all ;)

Shane D

PS: A Denon 2930 or a VP would have to give me a noticeably better picture, or I would not be interested. I would not spend a grand or better for a very small or subtle difference.

Shane D

As noted in the post above, there is a thread on the iSync Pro. Someone just received one and has posted some initial comments, with more to follow.

Early observations are fairly positive.

I did read the thread the other day, but had missed the current report. Very interesting!

Shane D

Thanks for the response! So, ISync is new/unknown quantity?

As far as a budget goes, I don't really have one. This little adventure started in July with me looking for a better pic quality. I started looking at upconverting players over component. As of November it has evolved to a new JVC TV, Expressvu high def satellite dish, and Bello TV stand. I kind of laugh about it, but the better half sees no humor in this at all ;)

Shane D

PS: A Denon 2930 or a VP would have to give me a noticeably better picture, or I would not be interested. I would not spend a grand or better for a very small or subtle difference.

Shane D

I don't think it is actually that new. It's just that it is not widely discussed on these forums. As Ofer mentioned in the other thread, it may be because the nutters around here go for the more tweakable stuff and spend more time discussing the "cutting edge" equipment. This is a dangerous place to hang out. You start getting all sorts of ideas that cost you a lot of cash. :D

What type of TV is the JVC (DLP, RPTV...)?

What exactly is it that you don't like about your current picture?

What is a subtle difference to one person is a big difference to another person. It's really hard to say for someone else. I started my journey with a 6th gen 42 inch "enhanced definition" plasma. I expected it to be a perfect picture and when it wasn't I kept fiddling and reading up to find out why it wasn't and what I could do about it. I got a Denon 5900 DVD player. I connected it via DVI. It was good but it wasn't what I expected or wanted. The biggest single difference on that set up was when I got my first VP, the Crystalio 1, combined with an SDI-modded Denon 3910. There were still things that bugged me, like the black levels but I thought I had reached about as far as I could with that panel.

Then I got a 50 inch 8th gen 768 panny plasma. At the same time I went to an HD TV box. The CI could not really do HD the way I wanted so then when the CII came out I jumped on it. Then the 65 inch 1080p plasma hit the market and I jumped because my room size called for a 65 inch (and I'm an immersion kind of guy--you know-- who sits in the front row of the theater) and since the 1080p was available I decided to go with the latest technology I could get........ It's all so very personal. I have friends who purchased consumer 8th gen 42 inch pannys, do not use VPs, do not have late model SD DVD players, and they are very happy.

Hey guys, I guess I'm a bit late to the party... :)

Even Madshi has decided not to wait for all these new features indefinitely and took up DVDO on their upgrade offer for the VP50 I think (Madshi please forgive me and correct me if I'm wrong).
No, you're quite right.

I was on the fence buying the Crystalio II a few months ago. The only problem was that I couldn't find a place to order it for a good price here in Germany. So I decided to wait. Now I've gone the VP50 route, because of DVDO's great international upgrade program.

My opinion about the CII is that it's a great VP with a very good user interface and the best flexibility of any VP. The DynamicVP stuff is just great! I would have bought it even for full price if there were no shortcomings. I do see some, though, which are:

(1) due to HDMI 1.1 the digital RGB output is limited to 8bit, which can result in banding artifacts (every other VP available today shares this limitation)
(2) due to the way the CII is designed, there's no easy way for PixelMagic to update to the latest Gennum chip (which is not available yet, though, anyway!)
(3) the media player doesn't support H.264, which is very important for me, as European broadcasts are encoded in H.264

Apart from these shortcomings the Crystalio II seems to be almost perfect. It's just too bad that I don't expect any of the 3 mentioned problems to be "fixed" in CII, except maybe by a new CII revision or by CIII. I don't expect current CIIs to be upgradable to a new revision or to CIII, unfortunately.

The Lumagen Radiance will be using a newer revision of the Gennum chip which does full compression artifact reduction. And I've heard a claim that these new algorithms are supposed to rival Algolith's algos. Well, we'll have to wait and see. Also we'll have to wait and see what the user interface of Radiance will look like. PixelMagic has set a reference with their CII. Not sure whether Lumagen will be able to match it. I hope Lumagen will copy the DynamicVP idea.

Apart from these shortcomings the Crystalio II seems to be almost perfect. I wouldn't call it perfect. AR control is not really up to that provided by other scalers on the market, or, for that matter, an HTPC.

As long as you fall into the category of not requiring any really flexible AR controls, and stick to basic 4x3 16x9, and 2.40:1, don't need to ever expand the image to crop the sides, and don't need or want push button selection of all the various AR's that movies have used over the years, you will be fine.

Several of us have requested that independent x and y scaling control and presets be added over a period of a few months, but PM continues to limit scaling options to a very basic set, maintaining that users don't really need the flexibility that many other scalers offer.

Here a basic example: A number of LD's were released with a 2.40:1 image squeezed slightly on the LD to about 2.10:1. The CII doesn't allow you to restore this to the proper AR on the screen without having to change at least 3 separate adjustments, all of which will affect other source material. In fact, there is a good chance it can't be done at all do to the lack of independent controls for vertical and horizontal image size.

Just my $.02.

Vern

I don't think it is actually that new. It's just that it is not widely discussed on these forums. As Ofer mentioned in the other thread, it may be because the nutters around here go for the more tweakable stuff and spend more time discussing the "cutting edge" equipment. This is a dangerous place to hang out. You start getting all sorts of ideas that cost you a lot of cash. :D

That is the impression that I get :D

What type of TV is the JVC (DLP, RPTV...)?

LCOS (HD-ILA), which would fall under RPTV.

What exactly is it that you don't like about your current picture?

Just set it up last weekend and it looks great. Some high def channels are better than others, and of course the SD is VERY variable. DVD's look good, but I am thinking that they could look even better. If I stopped now, I would still be WAY ahead of where I was two months ago.

What is a subtle difference to one person is a big difference to another person. It's really hard to say for someone else. I started my journey with a 6th gen 42 inch "enhanced definition" plasma. I expected it to be a perfect picture and when it wasn't I kept fiddling and reading up to find out why it wasn't and what I could do about it. I got a Denon 5900 DVD player. I connected it via DVI. It was good but it wasn't what I expected or wanted. The biggest single difference on that set up was when I got my first VP, the Crystalio 1, combined with an SDI-modded Denon 3910. There were still things that bugged me, like the black levels but I thought I had reached about as far as I could with that panel.

Then I got a 50 inch 8th gen 768 panny plasma. At the same time I went to an HD TV box. The CI could not really do HD the way I wanted so then when the CII came out I jumped on it. Then the 65 inch 1080p plasma hit the market and I jumped because my room size called for a 65 inch (and I'm an immersion kind of guy--you know-- who sits in the front row of the theater) and since the 1080p was available I decided to go with the latest technology I could get........ It's all so very personal. I have friends who purchased consumer 8th gen 42 inch pannys, do not use VPs, do not have late model SD DVD players, and they are very happy.

WOW, are you ever into it! I also love the Panny 65" 1080p, but could not justify the money. And with the Panny 58" and the Pio 60", I could not see paying twice the price for half the resolution. The JVC does look good (at its' best, like a plasma) and I am looking forward to my calibration Christmas week.

I am thinking that at the very least (flashback to July), I need an upconverting DVD player ;)

Shane D

WOW, are you ever into it! I also love the Panny 65" 1080p, but could not justify the money. And with the Panny 58" and the Pio 60", I could not see paying twice the price for half the resolution. The JVC does look good (at its' best, like a plasma) and I am looking forward to my calibration Christmas week.

I am thinking that at the very least (flashback to July), I need an upconverting DVD player ;)

Shane D

Well it sounds like you should just stop checking this site and you will end up better off. If you are pleased with what you have now then: STOP. Really, I don't think an upconverting DVD is going to make much difrerence. That just seems like a tiny step to the total insanity road that leads to an external VP. :D

Hey! South Africa! I lived in Mozambique for three years and visited SA a lot. Some beautiful places there. :D

Yeah, there are really beautiful spots in South Africa, particularly in KwaZulu-Natal, the province (a.k.a. state) where I live. We've got the Drakensberg mountain range, the Midlands Meander (which is a road trip off the main interstate and the Valley of a Thousand Hills. I'm leaving out the impressive weather, as our summers are really great (and a little hot) and our winters are not cold at all, only in the early morning and late evening. If only we can sort out the criminal element, South Africa will be an even better place. :o Having said that, tourism is on the increase, particularly from the States and Europe.


If you are getting the CII and the Th-65PF9UK you are not going to have any problems. Once you get an HDMI-DVI cable and connect the CII to the Panny, all you have to do is start with setting your CII to output the pre-set 1080p and then turn on the 1:1 pixel map mode on the Panny from the set up menu. Pull up the vertical and horizontal test patterns on your CII and you will see that they are perfectly snapped in. Then bring up the overscan pattern on the CII and adjust the V and H positions on your TV to make sure that you have the image lined up perfectly. That's it.

If you notice the horizontal noise line at the top or bottom of your screen with this set up (It happened to me and I know to one other guy who got his Panny the same time as I did.), you have an extra step to perform. Go into the output section of the CII menu, bring up the output resoultion screen, click on "customize", go to the vertical active pixels box and change it from 1080 to 1084. Bingo. That's it. You should be done in less than 30 minutes.

With this set up its perfect for HD broadcasts, but I notice on some SD programs some noise at the top or bottom of the screen so I set up a video profile in the CII in which there is 4 percent overscan. You can recall that profile with the touch of a button. That cleans up any garbage lines. I also set up another video profile with 23 percent overscan for HD movies that are in 235:1 ratio so that the movie fills the screen. That is a matter of choice as you lose some of the image but you get rid of the bars on the top and bottom of the image. I prefer immersion and am willing to lose a bit of the picture.

Of course there are a lot of other settings on the CII that you can play around with for color, black and white levels, etc. but we were mainly talking about getting 1:1 mapping.

Thanks, Jack. Much appreciated.

(1) due to HDMI 1.1 the digital RGB output is limited to 8bit, which can result in banding artifacts (every other VP available today shares this limitation)


Hi, just a short question, why would the 8bit limitation create banding artifacts? If I understand well then MPEG is limited to 8bit . I also prefer 10bit color, actually I would prefer 10bit uncompressed, but till the fast RAIDs don't fit a match-box I think I have to wait. So back to my curiosity: what can a HDMI port and its cable ruin on an image which was already limited to 8 bit during the DVD encoding?

Thanks

(1) due to HDMI 1.1 the digital RGB output is limited to 8bit, which can result in banding artifacts (every other VP available today shares this limitation)


How does that compare to component and DVI??

Hi, just a short question, why would the 8bit limitation create banding artifacts? If I understand well then MPEG is limited to 8bit . I also prefer 10bit color, actually I would prefer 10bit uncompressed, but till the fast RAIDs don't fit a match-box I think I have to wait. So back to my curiosity: what can a HDMI port and its cable ruin on an image which was already limited to 8 bit during the DVD encoding?
If you directly connect the source to the display, there's no problem, because the 8 bit from the source are directly passed on to the display. The display can then internally bump up bit depth and do its internal calculations in a higher bit depth to avoid rounding/clipoff errors.

However, if there's a video processor in the middle, things are bit different. A good video processor internally calculates in at least 10 bit throughout the whole processing chain. The VP does a lot of things. Deinterlacing, scaling, maybe gamma correction etc. If it did all this in 8 bit only, you'd run into rounding/cutoff errors, so it's usually doing it in 10 bit or higher. So when the VP is finally ready to output the final image, it has a 10 bit image but can only output it in 8 bit when using RGB over HDMI. Now a lot depends on how good the VP converts the 10 bit image down to 8 bit. If it does it cleverly, you might not be able to see any noticable image artifacts. But converting down to 8 bit is really not optimal. It *can* result in banding. Because of that I'll welcome HDMI 1.3, because with DeepColor the VP can pass the final image to the display in its full bit depth. Of course that works only, if both the display and the VP support DeepColor and if nobody in its internal calculation routines ever goes back to 8 bit.

How does that compare to component and DVI??
DVI is identical to HDMI 1.1 in that it also only supports 8 bit when outputting RGB.

Component is analog and thus not limited to a specific bit count by nature, so it has the potential to be "better". It depends on the VP and the display. The VP most probably uses the full 10 bit (or higher) internal precision to render the component output. It's up to the display to interpret this analog input then. Most of today's display are digital. So component input must be converted to digital by the display again. If the display does that in 8 bit only, component should not be any better than HDMI, but worse instead. But if the display digitizes the component input in 10 bit or higher, the final image may look somewhat better than HDMI. It might be a bit less sharp, cause digital -> analog -> digital is usually not lossless, but there should be no banding.

Well it sounds like you should just stop checking this site and you will end up better off. If you are pleased with what you have now then: STOP. Really, I don't think an upconverting DVD is going to make much difrerence. That just seems like a tiny step to the total insanity road that leads to an external VP. :D

It's like you are chanelling my wife...... ;)

Shane D

It's like you are chanelling my wife...... ;)

Shane D

Just trying to be of help. Once you get addicted to this site your bank account is going to spring a leak :D

So when the VP is finally ready to output the final image, it has a 10 bit image but can only output it in 8 bit when using RGB over HDMI. Now a lot depends on how good the VP converts the 10 bit image down to 8 bit. If it does it cleverly, you might not be able to see any noticable image artifacts. But converting down to 8 bit is really not optimal.


Component is analog and thus not limited to a specific bit count by nature, so it has the potential to be "better". It depends on the VP and the display. The VP most probably uses the full 10 bit (or higher) internal precision to render the component output. It's up to the display to interpret this analog input then. Most of today's display are digital. So component input must be converted to digital by the display again. If the display does that in 8 bit only, component should not be any better than HDMI, but worse instead. But if the display digitizes the component input in 10 bit or higher, the final image may look somewhat better than HDMI. It might be a bit less sharp, cause digital -> analog -> digital is usually not lossless, but there should be no banding.

Thanks indeed, it makes a lot of sense! Actually I just had the experience in a neighbor field: To create a DVD of a short (10bit, uncompressed) first I tried to do it with the Software DVD Studio Pro from Apple. It did a nice work, but when I let the work finally be done by CREST (a high professional DVD production company in LA) the colors get better then the DVD I created. I think it was what you called a cleverly done 10->8 downconverting in opposition with the housemaid DVD done with Apple software. You are really right, a not well controlled 10->8bit downconversion hurts a lot in the smoothness of the colors!

But let me abuse your patients and enlarge JimPs question: to your knowledge most of the display devices today use a 8bit A/D converter, or do it in higher resolution?

madshi

Thanks for the response.

I've noticed that my Pioneer plasma (6070) permits RGB, 444 and 422 color over hdmi. I've read that 444 color contains more information but 422 is less prone to color banding. Given a choice, which would you expect to provide the best picture and why.

But let me abuse your patients and enlarge JimPs question: to your knowledge most of the display devices today use a 8bit A/D converter, or do it in higher resolution?
I've no idea, unfortunately.

I've noticed that my Pioneer plasma (6070) permits RGB, 444 and 422 color over hdmi. I've read that 444 color contains more information but 422 is less prone to color banding. Given a choice, which would you expect to provide the best picture and why.
RGB can only be 8 bit 4:4:4. There's no RGB 4:2:2 format. There is 8 bit YCbCr 4:4:4 and 10 bit YCbCr 4:2:2, though. If your plasma accepts 10 bit YCbCr 4:2:2 and takes full advantage of the 10 bit information then that may be the best solution. In the end the plasma displays RGB, though. So if you send it YCbCr, the display has to convert that to RGB internally. It's possible that an external VP can do this conversion better than a display. In that case you might get better colors with 8 bit RGB 4:4:4, but less (or no) banding with 10 bit YCbCr 4:2:2. I'd suggest that you simply try out which looks best with your specific combination of devices.

But let me abuse your patients

I hope you're not a doctor. :rolleyes:

I hope you're not a doctor. :rolleyes:

ahh, for a language mistake now my big secret came to surface :D

Just trying to be of help. Once you get addicted to this site your bank account is going to spring a leak :D

Not much left now ;)

Shane D

If you directly connect the source to the display, there's no problem, because the 8 bit from the source are directly passed on to the display. The display can then internally bump up bit depth and do its internal calculations in a higher bit depth to avoid rounding/clipoff errors.

However, if there's a video processor in the middle, things are bit different. A good video processor internally calculates in at least 10 bit throughout the whole processing chain. The VP does a lot of things. Deinterlacing, scaling, maybe gamma correction etc. If it did all this in 8 bit only, you'd run into rounding/cutoff errors, so it's usually doing it in 10 bit or higher. So when the VP is finally ready to output the final image, it has a 10 bit image but can only output it in 8 bit when using RGB over HDMI. Now a lot depends on how good the VP converts the 10 bit image down to 8 bit. If it does it cleverly, you might not be able to see any noticable image artifacts. But converting down to 8 bit is really not optimal. It *can* result in banding. Because of that I'll welcome HDMI 1.3, because with DeepColor the VP can pass the final image to the display in its full bit depth. Of course that works only, if both the display and the VP support DeepColor and if nobody in its internal calculation routines ever goes back to 8 bit.


DVI is identical to HDMI 1.1 in that it also only supports 8 bit when outputting RGB.

Component is analog and thus not limited to a specific bit count by nature, so it has the potential to be "better". It depends on the VP and the display. The VP most probably uses the full 10 bit (or higher) internal precision to render the component output. It's up to the display to interpret this analog input then. Most of today's display are digital. So component input must be converted to digital by the display again. If the display does that in 8 bit only, component should not be any better than HDMI, but worse instead. But if the display digitizes the component input in 10 bit or higher, the final image may look somewhat better than HDMI. It might be a bit less sharp, cause digital -> analog -> digital is usually not lossless, but there should be no banding.

madshi,

You are assuming in the example above that if someone is using a video processor that they have turned off ALL internal processing in the display right?

For example, I have a 1080p LCD that accepts a 1080p signal and have been looking at video processors to de-interlace, scale and remove digital compression artifacts like mosquito noise and block artifacts. Currently my display overscans, but there is supposedly a firmware update that will make overscan go to zero.

Most people on these forums say that you should turn off all processing in the display, but if the 8-bit limiation you mention above is true, then it sounds like those of us with displays that have 10-bit processing would not want to turn off the internal processing of our displays.

If I can get the overscan on my LCD to 0%, then I could connect my sources to a product like the Flea/Mosquito to remove digital artifacts, which would then connect to a video processor like the dragonfly/crystalio/vp50 to de-interlace and scale and pass a 1080p signal to my display. Since the native rate of the display is 1080p and overscan is 0%, then the only thing the display's internal processor would do is process the colors in 10-bit.

Am I missing something or does that sound correct?

You are assuming in the example above that if someone is using a video processor that they have turned off ALL internal processing in the display right?

For example, I have a 1080p LCD that accepts a 1080p signal and have been looking at video processors to de-interlace, scale and remove digital compression artifacts like mosquito noise and block artifacts. Currently my display overscans, but there is supposedly a firmware update that will make overscan go to zero.

Most people on these forums say that you should turn off all processing in the display, but if the 8-bit limiation you mention above is true, then it sounds like those of us with displays that have 10-bit processing would not want to turn off the internal processing of our displays.
You cannot turn "the internal processing of the display" off, because otherwise you wouldn't see anything but a black screen. You can just turn off *additional* video processing algorithms like scaling, sharpening, noise reduction etc.

"Turning all processing off" usually means:

(1) avoid rescaling in the display (0% overscan, 1:1 pixel mapping)
(2) turn noise reduction, detail enhancement, sharpening etc off
(3) turn color correction, contrast expansion etc off

All this shouldn't impact in which bit depth the display works internally. E.g. if you check out all the plasma specs, most plasmas claim to be able to show xxx million color shades. So most plasmas internally work with more than 8 bit. There's no way to turn that off and also no reason to.

Am contemplating buying a Crystalio ll and am curious if anyone has sent a 1080p DVD signal into a Crystalio ll and then into a 1080p display and if there were any obvious benefits.

What's the actual source of your 1080p signal - was it 1080p on disk - or only after some processing in the source device? Is it video or film-based?

Trying Times

It's a Meridian DVD player processing a non-1080p disc.

hmmm - well I would definitely try and send a signal at it's 'on-disk' rate to CII wherever possible.

However if it's not possible, you will still benefit from source-switching, gamma correction, colour controls, pixel mapping to your display if applicable, automation of 50/60hz switching, etc, etc.

If it was your only or primary source, I would question the value though. Better still, I would sell your DVD player and replace it with one of the best sounding SDI players (Audio quality is often the hardest things to find in a good SDI player). You might even have some change left over.

On another note - has anyone tested the audio quality of the internal CII Media Player versus a well regarded standalone?

My 3800 just arrived. I ordered from AVS last Wednesday, it shipped from Hong Kong on Thanksgiving day, and it just arrived this morning.

AMAZING!! :)

On the one hand the Meridian is my best source, both visually and sonically (there are few better, in fact) but not the source I watch most frequently. I'm definitely going to buy a Cll and will A-B the input and tell you my results.

My 3800 just arrived. I ordered from AVS last Wednesday, it shipped from Hong Kong on Thanksgiving day, and it just arrived this morning.

AMAZING!! :)
Welcome to the club Phil :)
Are you going to be able to play with it tonight?

Welcome to the club Phil :)
Are you going to be able to play with it tonight?

I am working on hooking it up right now. Just programmed the main remote into my MX850, and am heading down to the theater to swap out my VP50.

Someone on this thread made the comment that this can be an expensive site to vist and I can heartily attest to that. I discovered this site a little over 5 years ago when we were remodelling our house and I realized I had a spare room for a dedicated theatre and promptly bought the Sharp 9000 which had just come out, a Stewart screen, and a Faroudja NRS. More recently, having not looked in for a while, I read about the just released Ruby and bought it. Now after a 6 month break, in spite of being perfectly happy with my setup, I suddenly read about the Cll and, of course, decide I must have it.

Not that I'm complaining, mind you.

Someone on this thread made the comment that this can be an expensive site to vist and I can heartily attest to that. I discovered this site a little over 5 years ago when we were remodelling our house and I realized I had a spare room for a dedicated theatre and promptly bought the Sharp 9000 which had just come out, a Stewart screen, and a Faroudja NRS. More recently, having not looked in for a while, I read about the just released Ruby and bought it. Now after a 6 month break, in spite of being perfectly happy with my setup, I suddenly read about the Cll and, of course, decide I must have it.

Not that I'm complaining, mind you.

Maybe you should think about the Panny 103 inch 1080p monitor! :D

And replace the Ruby and a Stewart 100" Firehawk? I don't think so.

And replace the Ruby and a Stewart 100" Firehawk? I don't think so.

just trying to help you spend money. ;)

Ohhhh. But I still need to rationalize it in some way and that kind of a move defies my rationalizing abilities.

Would someone help me configure my discrete inputs. The first three number keys, correspond to the first 3 HDMI inputs, but it all falls apart from there. Number 4 on the remote selects the Media Center, and locks out any more discrete input switching until I enter the input menu, and navigate out of the media center.

Then, I am unable to select Component 1 or Video 1 directly, and remaining number buttons are discrete activation of aspect ratio etc.

Is there a way to configure the discrete inputs so that I don't have to go into the 3800's menu each time I change inputs?

Nobody knows how to make discrete input selections on the Crystallio?

I find it hard to believe that something this complex would not have a way to select each of the inputs, via discrete command.

Actually I always use the mini menu :) Now that I've hidden all my inputs except 4, it's pretty easy. So I don't know exactly what can be done.
But as no one else has chimed in - here's some thoughts.

Does this still happen if you go to input>hide input and leave only a few options.

Also - you could create macros - macro+4 could equal select input as Component1, macro+5 = Video 1 etc.

So, let me see if I understand.... you have to perform multiple button presses to change inputs on the Crystallio? There is no dedicated button for each input? That seems pretty brain dead to me.

Even if I hide the unused inputs, the input buttons still correspond to the same sequence, so that doesn't work. What is more, button 4 always throws you into Media Center Hell, that requires you to go into the menu to get out again. In fact, if you end up in SDI 1 or 2, you have to access the drop down menu to change the input.

It is even more frustrating, that I tried to create a macro in my URC MX850 that would go something like this. Input + 6 which should select Component 1, but it throws me into SDI 2, which isn't even in position 6. All I want is to be able to press one button to select Component one!!

I can't believe how cumbersome this thing is, if it can't even switch directly to a desired input, that is some really bad user interface. :(

Nobody knows how to make discrete input selections on the Crystallio?

I find it hard to believe that something this complex would not have a way to select each of the inputs, via discrete command.

I just use the pop up menu which only has four options since I've hidden everything else. As Tryingtimes noted, however, I suppose you can use the macro buttons but just make sure you are using v 1.24 of the firmware because I think the macro capability was disabled before that.

Other than that you should go over to the PMS forum. If there is another way to do it I'm sure they will let you know over there.

BTW: do you really need to access all the inputs?

No, I don't need to access all the inputs, but I was under the impression that this was a better user interface than the VP50. It certainly seems to be much more cumbersome, and lacking the simple basic ability to directly select an input, without scrolling through menu's is simply unbelievable. I am sure there must be some hidden code or something, because to leave this out just boggles my mind.

OK, I think I figured it out (Thanks to Alan). The Macro functions are not in the owners manual, but it looks like each button can be configured from there.

OK, I think I figured it out (Thanks to Alan). The Macro functions are not in the owners manual, but it looks like each button can be configured from there.

Doesn't surprise me that there was no reference to the macro functions in the manual as they added this in subsequent firmware upgrades.

Don't tell me for one second the user interface is not nicer than DVDOs... No way!

I need to spend more time with it before I make my decision. So far, I am not too happy with all the unecessary crap that comes up on the screen when switching inputs. It also seems to have a harder time locking onto signals than the VP50, and I thought the VP50 was bad.

So far, Picture Quality looks stellar though. :)

Give it a little more time. Once you get it tweaked enough you really never need to go into the menu that much. Also, just hit the select button at anytime to find out what it is doing! I love having that power... Very cool... :)

Well... after spending more time with it tonight, I will say that the picture is, at least, as nice as the VP50, if not a hair better. There seems to be a feeling of richness to the image that was not as noticeable before.

As for the useability, I don't find the menu system that much better, in fact, the VP50 menu was easier to navigate, and way less intrusive. I thought the VP50 was having handshake issues, but the C2 takes the prize for being a pain in the ass, when it comes to locking on to a signal. It makes switching inputs (which I do a lot) a real mess.

I am hoping that the next firmware drop solves the handshake issues.

I am shocked. I have nvr had a single hesitation when it came to switching HDMI inputs. It is always a 100% issue free handshake. And as far as the menu goes I guess everyone is different. You are the first I know of who has complained about the crystalio II's though... :eek:

Well... after spending more time with it tonight, I will say that the picture is, at least, as nice as the VP50, if not a hair better. There seems to be a feeling of richness to the image that was not as noticeable before.

As for the useability, I don't find the menu system that much better, in fact, the VP50 menu was easier to navigate, and way less intrusive. I thought the VP50 was having handshake issues, but the C2 takes the prize for being a pain in the ass, when it comes to locking on to a signal. It makes switching inputs (which I do a lot) a real mess.

I am hoping that the next firmware drop solves the handshake issues.

Isn't the VP50 a lot cheaper? Sounds like you are not that impressed with the CII. Maybe you could save some bucks sticking with the VP50. Why did you switch in the first place?

i agree. If you are not that impressed and the picture on your display is only a hair better than I would save the extra cash and stick with the VP50...

I am shocked. I have nvr had a single hesitation when it came to switching HDMI inputs. It is always a 100% issue free handshake. And as far as the menu goes I guess everyone is different. You are the first I know of who has complained about the crystalio II's though... :eek:


I don't think he really meant an HDCP handshake issue. I think he means that the CII takes more time to lock onto a signal when he changes channels than he would like. I notice that it does take a bit of time to lock (I mean it is not always instantaneous), especially when you go from one resolution input to another. I'd like it to be faster but my main priority is PQ, so the slight delay doesn't really bug me because the image is so beautiful.

Same here. I mainly watch 1080i sources so I never notice hardly any delay whan I switch channels. And of course never any handshake problems. I am more shocked about him not liking the userface. Maybe he is just so used to the DVDO style.

Isn't the VP50 a lot cheaper? Sounds like you are not that impressed with the CII. Maybe you could save some bucks sticking with the VP50. Why did you switch in the first place?

I switched because of the rave reviews in this thread, and because I thought it would be more stable than the VP50. Having read the Pixel Magic forum, I see that I am not the only one with Handshake issues, and that they popped up with Firmware 1.24, so hopefully they can be fixed with the next drop.

Do either of you have a S3Tivo, or an HD-A1 HD-DVD player? I was able to switch between the HD-A1 and another input on the VP50 and back again, with no problems. With the Crystallio, it drops the connection, the HD-A1 stops playing alltogether, and I have to start over from the beginning. The S3Tivo, sometimes does not lock, when switching inputs, and it takes a few minutes of switching between other inputs to get an image to come up. During this process, the image comes, and goes, and comes, and goes before it locks on. I am outputting only 1080i from the S3Tivo. If I change it to native rate, I even loose the image when navigating between shows and the menu's. The VP50 never did that.

The menu system is a preference for not having it all right in the middle of the screen, blocking what I am trying to calibrate with. Sure, I can change the transparency, but that doesn't help much. I also find the VP50 more readable, and I don't see the menu's pop up when I am trying to change inputs. Even when using the Macro feature on the Crystallio (because they failed to provide direct input selection) instead of just switching inputs, you see a menu pop up before the input changes. It looks like unfinished software.

Just my 2 cents. This is the user reports thread. I will see what the next firmware does, and then decide what I am going to do.

I switched because of the rave reviews in this thread, and because I thought it would be more stable than the VP50. Having read the Pixel Magic forum, I see that I am not the only one with Handshake issues, and that they popped up with Firmware 1.24, so hopefully they can be fixed with the next drop.

Do either of you have a S3Tivo, or an HD-A1 HD-DVD player? I was able to switch between the HD-A1 and another input on the VP50 and back again, with no problems. With the Crystallio, it drops the connection, the HD-A1 stops playing alltogether, and I have to start over from the beginning. The S3Tivo, sometimes does not lock, when switching inputs, and it takes a few minutes of switching between other inputs to get an image to come up.

The menu system is a preference for not having it all right in the middle of the screen, blocking what I am trying to calibrate with. Sure, I can change the transparency, but that doesn't help much. I also find the VP50 more readable, and I don't see the menu's pop up when I am trying to change inputs. Even when using the Macro feature on the Crystallio (because they failed to provide direct input selection) instead of just switching inputs, you see a menu pop up before the input changes. It looks like unfinished software.

Just my 2 cents. This is the user reports thread. I will see what the next firmware does, and then decide what I am going to do.

I've got an S3 (via HDMI), an SD DVD (via SDI) and am testing a Samsung BR DVD player (via HDMI). All of those devices go to a digital Mosquito and then into the CII. It does take time to switch from one input to another but that is partly because I keep the other devices off when Im not using them. So when I switch to a different activity using my Harmony remote, it takes a bit of time to get everything powered up and on the right settings. I do not, however, notice any HDCP handshaking issues. Yes there were a few people over at the PMS forum who complained about HDCP issues via HDMI but I did not have the impression that it was widespread.

Yes, when switching to the TIVO there is some delay but I did not chalk that up to HDCP handshaking issues. The picture locks without problem; it is not instantaneous but it does not take a few minutes of switching between inputs to get it to lock.

You can definitely play around with the size (and I think) position of the OSD. Also, when you start changing the picture settings everything disappears except for the slider bar of the setting you are changing.

I think you are correct that PMS is in the process of improving the software--especially with regard to the media player as I mentioned earlier in this thread. I still think, however, the most important thing that they got right is the PQ, and my sense is that there is much more flexibility in configuration than with other VPs. I think they will fix the other stuff in time. And they have demonstrated that they are responsive to user input. Of course, it is totally a personal choice and the best way to decide is to do what you are doing: test it for yourself on your system.

BTW: What was the instability that bugged you about the VP50?

Well... after spending more time with it tonight, I will say that the picture is, at least, as nice as the VP50, if not a hair better. There seems to be a feeling of richness to the image that was not as noticeable before.

As for the useability, I don't find the menu system that much better, in fact, the VP50 menu was easier to navigate, and way less intrusive. I thought the VP50 was having handshake issues, but the C2 takes the prize for being a pain in the ass, when it comes to locking on to a signal. It makes switching inputs (which I do a lot) a real mess.

I am hoping that the next firmware drop solves the handshake issues.
From one Phil to another, keep up the good work by way of a blow by blow comparison, particularly as you're doing now, wrt useability. Joerod is a reseller and installer, so we may be seeing a wee tad of bias here. :)

Hi Phil
Crystalio II is a very flexible device. VPs buyers are a fussy bunch - we want all the features in the world but we also want WAF and we also want it to look slick. For me, CII has achieved the best balance of this so far. I think you'll grow to like it as the days go by.

Firstly the adjustment bars can be moved to the bottom of the screen while calibrating - once they appear in the middle - press OK and it'll move down.

Now I've just tested the input select thing and I agree that once you've hidden all the inputs the numbers on the remote should match those of the mini-menu. It might be worth requesting this from Pixel Magic because it might be an easy thing to change. Personally I'm adding and removing inputs all the time so I'm not so bothered - the mini menu is better for me. But I think direct access would be good for all.

I don't suffer from your source switching delay problem, but then I don't currently have any HDCP-encrypted sources. I probably wouldn't notice it either as my crt projector takes far longer to sync anyway (and it's messy when it changes resolutions too).

On the JoeRod is a reseller/installer comment I just want to say that I have NEVER sold a crystalio II to anyone on this forum. I have received a few PMs and each time I tell them to go thru AVS. So I am not personally trying to sell them here at all. My opinions are 100% UNBIASED. I have had all the current VPs abd I just happen to like the crystalio II the best. If it was the VP50 I liked the best I would be over there doing the same. I have nothing to gain on this forum. Saying I am biased towards PMS is inaccurate to say the least. Anyway, I am using a XA1 HD DVD player, Panny Blu ray, JVC HM5 U, and 2 directv HD receivers (one TIVO and the other their new HR20) thru my Onkyo TX1000. With this set up I hav never had any loss of picture due to input switching. I switch inputs quite a bit. I am always going from HD DVD or Blu ray to DirecTv. And still occasionally DTHEATER. If you are not happy with your crystalio II now and its interface I suggest sending it back now because a new firmware version will not make a difference when it comes to the userface. Maybe it will solve your input woes but with what you are posting I would doubt it will change your mind about the VP...

Knowing that I can move the interface around a bit, will help. I will try that to see if I can get it to work better for me.

Jack, and Joerod, I notice that you both, have devices, between your sources, and the C2. Jack has the Mosquito, and Joerod has the Onkyo. I am wondering if this makes the difference. I know the S3 HDMI is buggy, as is the HDTivo before it. HDMI doesn't even work on my HDDtivo. The HD-A1 is also known to have handshake issues. I am wondering if the Mosquito, and Onkyo, do a better job communicating, than the C2. Then, in turn, those devices communicate with the C2 better, creating a more reliable chain. I would consider getting the Mosquito, if that is certain, but I was really dissapointed with the earlier Algolith product.

I don't care about fancy pants user interfaces. All I want from my video processor are three things:

1. Reliable Switching
2. Best Picture Quality
3. Invisibility (I don't want to know it is there, even when switching inputs). No pop up menus, or text on the screen. This should be able to be disabled. If I want to see something, I can press a display or info button.

That is it. I am a simple man. With those criteria in mind, I give the C2 1 out of 3 since it has very nice picture quality. The VP50 gets 2, maybe 2.5 out of 3, since it is a bit more reliable switching, but still has bugs. I also find the UI on the VP50 faster, and easier to navigate. That personal preference.

Now, I just need to determine, if the increase in picture quality on the C2 is significant enough for me to keep it over the VP50. If my other two criteria can be improved in the next software release, it makes my decision a lot easier.

I would make sure that Pixel Magic are aware of your requests - I doubt that it will come in the next firmware as I haven't seen others requesting the same thing. However your particular requests do seem like logical ones (hiding the on-screen text and being able to change source without seeing menus).

I just registered over there, and will post my observations and suggestions as soon as they activate my account.

I am only sending the DirecTv (HD TIVO and HR20) to the Onkyo. The XA1, Panny Br, DTHEATER player go directly to the crystalio II. The Onkyo HDMI out goes into my HDMI input 4 which I then use for watching satelite.

I wonder if the XA1 has less issues than the A1? I have an XA2 on order, and I am really hoping they addressed the HDCP issues.

I am using the Toshiba firmware version 2.0. I do not know if that makes a difference but I am sure it helps with some of the handshaking issues the HD DVD players were experiencing not so long ago...

Jack, and Joerod, I notice that you both, have devices, between your sources, and the C2. Jack has the Mosquito, and Joerod has the Onkyo. I am wondering if this makes the difference. I know the S3 HDMI is buggy, as is the HDTivo before it. HDMI doesn't even work on my HDDtivo. The HD-A1 is also known to have handshake issues. I am wondering if the Mosquito, and Onkyo, do a better job communicating, than the C2. Then, in turn, those devices communicate with the C2 better, creating a more reliable chain. I would consider getting the Mosquito, if that is certain, but I was really dissapointed with the earlier Algolith product.

I don't think the Mosquito is better at communicating than the C2 and I would definitely not fork out the cash for it just for that reason even if it were true. When I first set up my TIVO3 I kept the Mosquito out of the loop to keep things simple and it performed (in terms of switching with delay but no major HDCP prob)wtih the C2 just the way it does now. Ditto with the Samsung BR.

I never really thought about it that much since the switching delays don't bug me all that much but it might be that the C2 firmware could be improved in this regard. Since you give that 1/3 weight I suppose that is a pretty big drawback for you.

I am pretty sure I am using 2.0 as well. When the new players are out with 1080P, would using the Pass-Through feature on the C2 bypass any handshake, or would there still have to be a handshake between the C2 and the player?

Jack, are you running the 1.24 firmware, or the previous version. I read some reports on the PM forum that the change to the 1.24 firmware brought up some of the handshake issues.

Jack, are you running the 1.24 firmware, or the previous version. I read some reports on the PM forum that the change to the 1.24 firmware brought up some of the handshake issues.

Yeah I'm using 1.24.

I am pretty sure I am using 2.0 as well. When the new players are out with 1080P, would using the Pass-Through feature on the C2 bypass any handshake, or would there still have to be a handshake between the C2 and the player?

This is probably a question best posed to PMS techs. Personally, I'm not sure I would want to pass through even a 1080p signal since the CII does other stuff to improve the image besides deinterlacing.

On the JoeRod is a reseller/installer comment I just want to say that I have NEVER sold a crystalio II to anyone on this forum. .....

Joe,
Just to avoid any misunderstanding, is it still correct to say that you are a reseller or installer?
Thanks!
____
Axel

Yes it can. I like the extra features the faroudja offers for deinterlacing the 480i signals. With those extras it produces a sharper, clearer image than the VXP. Of course the VXP was made for 1080i signals so when it comes down to it this is one hell of a combo! :)

Joe,

I've always found VXP to do a better job than DCDi on SD signals, with DCDi always either looking softer or having too much edge enhancement with no obvious compromise in the middle.

Have you got some 'magic' settings to make DCDi give better results?

Thanks in advance,
John.

There are some more options for the DCDI SD that I use in the image area which help me tweak it so it looks very good. It took a little while and I imagine every display is different but once you spend the time to dial them in they can look great... Questions about me being a dealer/installer should not matter when it comes to the crystalio II. I am not for PMS so my views are unbiased. I just want the most reliable, easy to use, and greatest picture giving VP available and the crystalio II delivers... ;)

There are some more options for the DCDI SD that I use in the image area which help me tweak it so it looks very good.
Could you list how you have DCDi configured? I'd like to use it as a starting point.

Sure. when I get a chance to fire up my theater I will write down my settings...

Could you list how you have DCDi configured? I'd like to use it as a starting point.

Just remember that DCDI only works with video. If you're watching film material, it's irrelevant.

True DCDi works with real 60i video content. Though enable DCDi also means using the Faroudja FLI2300 for deinterlacing, both film and video. Some film content may work better using FLI2300 too. The choice is up to the user.

regards,

Li On

I got in to late last nite to be able to turn on my system. I will hopefully be able to do it today...

Just remember that DCDI only works with video. If you're watching film material, it's irrelevant.

DCDi is just being (incorrectly) used as a blanket term here for all the processing provided by the Faroujda part, of specific interrest here are the various image enhancement options that apply to both film and video mode sources.

John.

Can you guy's please check something on your C2's? I am having a discussion with Jason, the moderator, over on the PM forum, about what happens when you press the number button corresponding to an input, while that input is already selected.

He say's that nothing should happen. When I select an input, that is currently selected, my unit looses the image, a blue screen comes up, the text appears in the upper left corner describing the input aquisition process, and then the image comes back. This happens repeatedly, no matter how many times I re-select that input.

Just wondering if I have a deffective unit, or if they have not fixed this in the software, as he claims.

With my CII nothing happens when I select the same source with the number buttons.
Cant imagine how this could be an hardware problem on your unit though(thinking more in the lines of settings, did you enable input dynamic vp?)

I just tried enabling input dynamic vp, and it made no difference.

I was able to switch between the HD-A1 and another input on the VP50 and back again, with no problems. With the Crystallio, it drops the connection, the HD-A1 stops playing alltogether, and I have to start over from the beginning.

That's not the way it works with my VP 50. When I change the input, the A1 loses the HDMI connection. When I return, it resyncs and starts from the begining. It is an issue with the A1 not the processor. I also have a Panasonic BD player and it wwork just fine.

I am installing firmware 1.30 right now. Here is hoping it solves my issues.

OK, after installing 1.30 my switching issues, and instability remain. I was even noticing that watching component inputs, that I would loose the image, when there was a flash, on a CSI scene transition. Also, switching from the show to a menu on my 8300HD causes a loss of the image. I am thinking I must have a deffective unit.

Have you got Dynamic VP doing anything with the resolutions at the time of the scene transitions? That's the only time I get signals coming and going - or maybe your digibox is outputting different resolutions depending on the programme content (does it have that feature?)
Anyway - just some thoughts - I'm not surprised that 1.3 didn't fix any of your issues as they've only just become aware of them. But unless you have a return deadline, I would hang in there.

OK, after installing 1.30 my switching issues, and instability remain. I was even noticing that watching component inputs, that I would loose the image, when there was a flash, on a CSI scene transition. Also, switching from the show to a menu on my 8300HD causes a loss of the image. I am thinking I must have a deffective unit.

I'm just taking a wild guess here because I really have not seen anything like the switching problems you describe so it's a bit hard for me to visualize what you are doing with your system. Are you sure that your macros are not doing something that you do not intend? Seems like you have a lot of them programmed into your remote. Have you tried doing the switches manually with the original remotes just as an experiment?

Yes, I have turned off Dynamic VP, so that is not affecting it, and I have tried just using the remote that comes with the C2 to select an input. The only macros I have in my universal remote are the single button press for the C2 input selection, and the coresponding audio input on my Lexicon.

Also, these issues happen, in the middle of a show, when I am not touching anything. Just scene transitions, or any instability in a cable signal, can cause the image to drop for a few seconds.

Yes, I have turned off Dynamic VP, so that is not affecting it, and I have tried just using the remote that comes with the C2 to select an input. The only macros I have in my universal remote are the single button press for the C2 input selection, and the coresponding audio input on my Lexicon.

Also, these issues happen, in the middle of a show, when I am not touching anything. Just scene transitions, or any instability in a cable signal, can cause the image to drop for a few seconds.

Man, that sounds totally screwed up. This is definitely not the way the CII works normally.