I mean, based on what we've seen so far with the two formats and what we can predict based on the foreseeable future (due to all news/announcements we've been able to read up to this point)...I don't really see a studio like Lion's Gate going neutral or not any time soon mattering much to the outcome of the war.

Obviously if Universal went neutral, that would be huge for BD - but I don't know that the HD DVD audience can't be completely happy for a good while with things as they currently stand otherwise/anyway.

I mean, even if no new studios announce neutrality at CES - I could easily see a scenario where by that point the add-on, other HD DVD players, and HD DVD software itself has still outsold BD by a significant margin. If that were true and the Q1 title release line-ups announced by Paramount, WB, and Universal also seemed as plentiful and attractive to whatever is announced by the BD group - then there is essentially no reason to say that the gap between the two formats will not continue to grow in HD DVD's favor, as it has been.

That is the kind of scenario that makes more sense at being real to me than any other. Why? Well, because that's essentially how things have played out exactly so far. That's the "historical" scenario. And looking into the immediate/known future - things don't seem set to change. The add-on and the PS3 seem like they will have equal software sales momentum and the release line-up for BD hasn't yet convinced many people of anything. I mean, "King Kong" cancels out "X-men 3". And "Casino" cancels out "Speed". Or whatever. Point is - at the end of the day, HD DVD still has more titles out, is cheaper, has a greater high PQ ratio, and is perhaps easier to find (compared to, say, the PS3).

I don't really see the future changing whether studios decide to go neutral or not. The path seems set presently. And presently the BD-exclusive studios aren't releasing or planning to release anything compelling - and so people will continue to not care.

What really needs to happen, is not just the vague notion that BD has some good exclusive studios in their corner - but rather real, tangible ACTION on behalf of it. What we need to hear is not another dry reminder that BD has more support but rather some proof. What we need to hear is: "COMING JAN/FEB 07! The entire James Bond Collection, Rocky Collection, Alien Quadrilogy, and the Die Hard trilogy in BD HD from Sony and Fox!!! **** YOU, HD DVD!!!"

But instead all we hear is "ho hum, here comes "Aliens VS Predator - ho hum, oh look here's "The Usual Suspects" to go along with "Phone Booth". WHO CARES?! It's enough to make you wonder if studios like Fox completely trust Sony and the BD format after all.

The point must be made - Warner, Universal, and Paramount are delivering to HD DVD as much content and content that's arguably better - than all of the "many" studios that only support BD combined.

I see no indications that things will change either. Both groups seem set to put out the same amount and quality of content that we've seen in the past - in the same way going forward all of these upcoming months. So absorb that truth and the fact that starting November 20th, many of us will be importing Sony/Fox titles on HD DVD from Europe anyway...and I really don't see how BD will necessarily hit any peak higher than what HD DVD has already.

I don't know. Kingdom of Heaven DC is making me think very hard.

I don't know. Kingdom of Heaven DC is making me think very hard. Hah, yeah, I still have to see the DC version. Saw the theatrical cut and that definitely didn't "blow my skirt up" very much. I've heard countless times though, how much better the DC is - we shall see.

Funny thing actually, what would actually be a bigger draw to me towards the BD format is - now don't laugh - ...the director's extended cut of "King Arthur" from Touchstone/Disney.

That movie didn't do much for me when I saw it at the theater - but that DC extended cut I viewed when the SD DVD version came out really hit the spot. I watched it thinking "S***! - this is pretty good!". Plus, Clive Owen as a ninja that time forgot. I mean, c'mon. Really.

Neutrality is important because it puts the battle where it should be. With the people.

Consumers have grown accustomed to battles. DVD+R vs DVD-R, SACD vs DVD-Audio, VHS vs Betamax. While this slows things down when the eventual winner emerges there is no doubt that that's what the people wanted. Democracy at its finest.

However when you have studios making the decision for you things change. As a consumer I no longer have control beyond voting with my wallet.

The media industry doesn't seem to understand that the further balkanization of their product is going to hurt them in the long run.

There is no specific title that will cause me to purchase a player. The player itself has to be affordable to mitigate the risk of potentially buying a format with no future.

The studios should be supporting the consumers. Neutrality is that support for now.

On principle, I object to it. I think consumers should be able to make independent choices about format and content. It is also foolish for the studios. As a Blu-Ray supporter, Universal is simply losing money they would have received by my buying King Kong and others of their titles. I am sure that HD DVD supporters feel the same way about the Blu-Ray studios.

There is another point here. I think that one thing that is keeping many customers from signing on to either format is their belief that the studios are not fully supporting either format. It leaves them with a very tentative feeling about the whole process. Consumers simply cannot be asked to guess which studios they are going to want to buy product from in the future. The response of the consumers is just to turn off and wait for clarity.

My overall theory is that many aspects of the format war are hurting the entire process of the adoption of hd.

On principle, I object to it. I think consumers should be able to make independent choices about format and content. It is also foolish for the studios. As a Blu-Ray supporter, Universal is simply losing money they would have received by my buying King Kong and others of their titles. I am sure that HD DVD supporters feel the same way about the Blu-Ray studios.

There is another point here. I think that one thing that is keeping many customers from signing on to either format is their belief that the studios are not fully supporting either format. It leaves them with a very tentative feeling about the whole process. Consumers simply cannot be asked to guess which studios they are going to want to buy product from in the future. The response of the consumers is just to turn off and wait for clarity.

My overall theory is that many aspects of the format war are hurting the entire process of the adoption of hd.


Couldn't agree with you more.

Sure, there are a few positives that have come out of this thing, but overall, format wars are simply bad news and as customer UN-friendly as you can possibly get.

Couldn't agree with you more.

Sure, there are a few positives that have come out of this thing, but overall, format wars are simply bad news and as customer UN-friendly as you can possibly get.

While I agree with you and rlsmith that the war is likely slowing down the adoption of HD on shiny disks (and the quality that can be there that folks on this forum really care about), I disagree that the war is customer unfriendly. I think the competition between the two products has lead to better specs for both, and cheaper prices for me than I would have gotten otherwise. It's the first time I don't really feel like I got fleeced as an early adopter. If everyone one wants to sit on the fence, more power to them but I won't be. And even if I'm wrong I don't have much money suck into it anyway (thanks Netflix).

Neutrality is important because it puts the battle where it should be. With the people.

Consumers have grown accustomed to battles. DVD+R vs DVD-R, SACD vs DVD-Audio, VHS vs Betamax. While this slows things down when the eventual winner emerges there is no doubt that that's what the people wanted. Democracy at its finest.
So... um... who won in the DVD-R and DVD+R battle? Or, for that matter, SACD and DVD-Audio?

I think DVD-R is far ahead of DVD+R. I think about the only holdout is Philips who developed the DVD+R. I know I was duped by the + group with better compatibility. About the only place that I can read +R disc reliably is in dual format burners. Thank heavens for an universal burner.

it is simple. AAA movie titles + high PQ and Audio quality = sell players.

same in the game world on that regard. a game like Gears of wars sells xbox360. a game like zelda sells nintendo WII. and game like resistance fall of man sells ps3.

the overal importance though is that if you buy a ps3 you can play HD movies direct. it will 100% guarantee that who ever has a ps3 will try it out for HD movies as well since there is a movie inside for free. will that person buy more movies . that is ofcourse a good question. but if will make sure that atleast for the surviving chance for movies in HD, the ps3 is a good option.

with the HD-DVD addon for xbox360 you have to convincce people to buy it. and how do you archive people in buying that Hd-DVD addon for xbox360. that is the only thing that can hurt HD in general. or to convince people to buy a normal Hd-DVd player in that regard.

that is why i was never fond of xbox360 without the HD-DVD. i think for HD in general a xbox with Hd-DVd would have a much higher percentage chance for Hd to survive in general.

just think about it. xbox360 with HDDVd inside and PS3 with bluray inside = HD has much more chance to be accepted as next generation format for movies.

I think the key point here is that the studios are recogniZing that the format confusion is hurting overall sales.

More importantly, the Bluray-exclusive studios are seeing Warner, Paramount and Universal doing sales hand over fist and realize that they are missing not only sales volumne, but potentially participation in the growth of what is starting to look like the format of choice for consumers.

It's pretty safe to say that Bluray studios are likely losing money on every release. They'll lose less money by releasing to HD DVD also, and getting extra sales.

So... um... who won in the DVD-R and DVD+R battle? Or, for that matter, SACD and DVD-Audio?

No one won the DVD-/+R battle. Basically since all it required to support both was a tweak in firmware, everything's dual format. Not so for media formats

As for the SACD/DVDA battle, I think they both lost because consumers didn't care enough, and studios would rather release on formats with better copy protection (they saw everything was going to go HD format disc anyway)

More importantly, the Bluray-exclusive studios are seeing Warner, Paramount and Universal doing sales hand over fist and realize that they are missing not only sales volumne, but potentially participation in the growth of what is starting to look like the format of choice for consumers.

And I think they also know that in 2 weeks, BR will have 4-8x the install base of HD-DVD and a bunch of customers to buy the discs. The HD software sales advantage is purely temporary. The retailers are behind BR, all but one studio, and all but one CE. It's simply a matter of time.

It's not what the public wants, it's what the retailers want, and the last thing they want is a format war on this next big media cash cow. Why do you think we're still infected with P&S versions of new release DVDs, even though after the first month they do nothing but sit around collecting dust? Because Wal-Mart demands it. And they're not going to put up with stocking dual-releases of HD format movies for very long.

I think I agree with the original poster but maybe for different reasons. I believe HD-DVD is selling more discs for one simple reason. The players are cheaper. PQ and big title availability can be a factor but personally I feel it's only a small one when the playing field is essentially equal in the eyes of a typical consumer. For someone who is fairly uniformed and about to enter this format I'd imagine the decision would be fairly easy. They see the availability of titles as about equal in both numbers and big name releases and then realize they can get into this format today for roughly 1/2 the price of choosing option B.

I've said it many times. If HD-DVD gets a player to $199 well ahead of BR the format war is essentially over. However, if BR and HD-DVD player prices equalize and come down at an equal price the war of course will be extended and all the little things (studio support, disc prices, extras, PQ, sound formats, etc.) will play a role in determining the eventually winner if any.

I think the entrance of the PS3 can’t be considered seriously as a player because I just don’t see people using a gaming system as their primary movie player. However, I do feel PS3 has the ability to “artificially” boost BR discs sales in the meantime and it just might be the saving grace to BR. The studios will see stronger BR discs sales making them less likely to abandon BR titles and also it will buy valuable time allowing an opportunity for BR players to equalize in price with the HD-DVD players.

We’ll see.

...And I think they also know that in 2 weeks, BR will have 4-8x the install base of HD-DVD and a bunch of customers to buy the discs. The HD software sales advantage is purely temporary. Man, are the BD camp setting themselves up for a fall... If they said "hey, we'll see" it would be smarter. But they keep saying "The PS3 is the next coming of the messiah! Repent for your HD DVD idolatry before you be Judged! Arhhh!" :D

Bottom line - when the PS3 hits the market and BD sales do not catch up to HD DVD, there's gonna be a whole domino effect of changes that not even BDA lawyers can stop.

It's not what the public wants, it's what the retailers wantThanks for the tip - I'll remember that next time I'm thinking of buying a BR movie

Man, are the BD camp setting themselves up for a fall... If they said "hey, we'll see" it would be smarter. But they keep saying "The PS3 is the next coming of the messiah! Repent for your HD DVD idolatry before you be Judged! Arhhh!"

It's not the messiah, but if you're a studio and you look at it "Let's see, one has sold 75,000 players, the other has sold closer to 475,000 capable machines, with hundreds of thousands more likely to move in the next 6 months, which one should I support?" There's at least 6-8 million Playstation fanboys out there with money to burn who won't think twice about the $600 price point (it's the next 6-8 million that Sony has to worry about). But that's numbers I seriously doubt HD-DVD would be able to match until it's way too late. There's simply only so many enthusiasts out there (what did LD sell, 3 million decks?) to support it.

And the retailers are looking for stuff they can sell together. I think the people on this forum grossly underestimate how many people did, and still do use their PS2 as their primary deck, and are perfectly willing to use the PS3 as one as well.

I know most people HERE, myself included wouldn't, but we're talking mainstream, not the enthusiast.

It's not the messiah, but if you're a studio and you look at it "Let's see, one has sold 75,000 players, the other has sold closer to 475,000 capable machines, with hundreds of thousands more likely to move in the next 6 months, which one should I support?"

I think you are over-estimating the number of PS3 owners that actually will BUY Blu-ray movies. Some might buy one or two, some might rent. I think that the number of HD-DVD owners actively buying movies will outnumber the PS3 owners that will be actively buying movies. The attach rates have been favoring HD-DVD all along.

It's not the messiah, but if you're a studio and you look at it "Let's see, one has sold 75,000 players, the other has sold closer to 475,000 capable machines, with hundreds of thousands more likely to move in the next 6 months, which one should I support?" There's at least 6-8 million Playstation fanboys out there with money to burn who won't think twice about the $600 price point (it's the next 6-8 million that Sony has to worry about). But that's numbers I seriously doubt HD-DVD would be able to match until it's way too late. There's simply only so many enthusiasts out there (what did LD sell, 3 million decks?) to support it.
I don't think the install base of BD will greatly outnumber HD anytime soon. Any bump made by PS3 will be countered by XBOX add-on. As to which will sell more movies, I don't think BD will ever catch up with HD-DVD. Attach rate will always be greater with HD-DVD. There, I made a prediction. :)

It's not the messiah, but if you're a studio and you look at it "Let's see, one has sold 75,000 players, the other has sold closer to 475,000 capable machines,
Someone else has already addressed the attach rate issue, so I'll be content just to point out that you neglect to include the sales of the Xbox HD DVD addon in your little comparison here.... which renders your point pointless ;)

Someone else has already addressed the attach rate issue, so I'll be content just to point out that you neglect to include the sales of the Xbox HD DVD addon in your little comparison here.... which renders your point pointless ;)

Last I heard though Microsoft was only putting out 200,000 HD-DVD add-ons so HD-DVD would still be approximately 200,000 behind Blu-Ray for machines capable of playing their chosen format. I could be wrong though so if I am just ignore my post.

So... um... who won in the DVD-R and DVD+R battle? Or, for that matter, SACD and DVD-Audio?

The consumer my Microsoftian friend. Denon just announced an upscaling DVDA/SACD/DVD player for $400. With digital data all we're talking about is a carrier format usually in the form of an optical disc. Once the 1's and 0's are off the disc everything else is normalized. Universal HD DVD/Blu-ray players are inevitable IMO.


Neither format BD or HD DVD has a magic bullet. 50GB discs aren't a magic bullet for BD. Combo discs aren't a magic bullet for HD DVD.

Price really is going to be the thing that moves boxes and eventually the studios will support the millions of boxes out there.

It's not the messiah, but if you're a studio and you look at it "Let's see, one has sold 75,000 players, the other has sold closer to 475,000 capable machines, with hundreds of thousands more likely to move in the next 6 months, which one should I support?"

Your point is? Every memory card reader includes Memory Stick slot so there are loads and loads of people with Memory Stick capable machine. Does it make Memory Stick the de-facto standard of memory? The last time I checked it was CF cards (for pro) and SD (for consumers)

Last I heard though Microsoft was only putting out 200,000 HD-DVD add-ons so HD-DVD would still be approximately 200,000 behind Blu-Ray for machines capable of playing their chosen format. I could be wrong though so if I am just ignore my post.

200,000 HD-DVD add-on will be bought to watch HD-DVD, especially when the add-on serves virtually no other purpose than that.

400,000 PS3 will be bought to play games, there is no telling how many will actually be used to watch BD.

Not saying that your logic is wrong, just stating the fact from my POV.

Last I heard though Microsoft was only putting out 200,000 HD-DVD add-ons ...
I'd also add that I don't think we know the true number.

I think they'll pump out as many as the market will bear.

Microsoft will pump out enough add ons until their HD DVD integrated Xbox 360 hits next year.

If they deliver 200k that's great because Toshiba is claiming 200k worldwide by the end of this year. Add in RCA and laptop enable offerings and you have likely 500k of players. A nice start to 2007.

CES will likely bring in new vendors whether they be hardware or software.

Another point about the Xbox 360 HD-DVD add-on. People point to the $199 price barrier. From a certain point of view, with the release of the add-on, HD-DVD has already broken that barrier.

Another point about the Xbox 360 HD-DVD add-on. People point to the $199 price barrier. From a certain point of view, with the release of the add-on, HD-DVD has already broken that barrier. You tell 'em, Obi-wan!!! :p

Seriously though, and that $199 price includes a great HD DVD movie in Kong, the necessary USB cable, and a great media remote. The PS3 does not come with a remote or even an HDMI cable.

Microsoft will pump out enough add ons until their HD DVD integrated Xbox 360 hits next year.

If they deliver 200k that's great because Toshiba is claiming 200k worldwide by the end of this year. Add in RCA and laptop enable offerings and you have likely 500k of players. A nice start to 2007.

CES will likely bring in new vendors whether they be hardware or software.
I will be surprised if MS pumps out 200000 units this year. I think that number is far too LOW.


You tell 'em, Obi-wan!!! :p

Seriously though, and that $199 price includes a great HD DVD movie in Kong, the necessary USB cable, and a great media remote. The PS3 does not come with a remote or even an HDMI cable.
Well, the HDMI point is moot, because an HDMI cable doesn't come with the Xbox 360 either, cuz the Xbox 360 cannot support HDMI at all.

That said, the HD DVD drive in Canada is only US$177 (CAD$199.99) with King Kong and universal remote. At this early stage of the game, that price is astonishing for an add-on device.

Some studios still state that blu-ray has stronger DRM making it the stronger anti-piracy format.

Now of course MS would dispute that arguing that more DRM is not necessarily better DRM but the fact remains that the extra DRM layer is a factor that may keep some studios from going Neutral instead of blu-ray exclusive unless almost forced to.

Of course I doubt most consumers have any idea they are buying into more DRM with the blu-ray format so it's something that slides in under the radar for most people...

It also seems like many people are forgetting that everyone who owns a PS3 does not have an HDTV. Just about everyone I know still has SDTVs and for the few I know who have HDTVs, most don't know what to do with them. Even though lots of us here have HDTVs, the average consumer doesn't. I think that one person in my ENTIRE family has an HDTV (other than me). So, while each Xbox 360 HD-DVD add-on will be used to play HD-DVD movies, each PS3 won't. Even though some people don't have the best common sense, I imagine that the overwhelming majority of PS3 owners with SDTVs would not buy Blu Ray discs if they are going to get the same quality from a cheaper DVD.

I wish every studio would just be neutral, because I have an HD-A1, but now I also want a Blu Ray player for those HD movies I am missing out on. But it took months to convince my wife that the HD-A1 was worth it (it = $399.99), but I don't think I'll be able to talk her into an $800-$1000 Blu Ray player. So, I guess in response to the TC's first post, yes, neutrality would be very important.

PS: I know this is off-topic, but what is J6P?

J6P = Joe Six Pack = the average consumer = me

200,000 HD-DVD add-on will be bought to watch HD-DVD, especially when the add-on serves virtually no other purpose than that.

400,000 PS3 will be bought to play games, there is no telling how many will actually be used to watch BD.

Not saying that your logic is wrong, just stating the fact from my POV.

I am completely with you on this. I am sure the reason we have not seen Alien quadrilogy, James Bond & Die hard etc. is because there are people at Fox who are waiting for a jump in Blu Ray sales over Christmas to indicate that it is worth their while to release these titles. When PS3 sales have settled down, (March 07?) is when the studios will make a decision. With the 360 add-on and HD DVD stand alone player sales, a studio sees an exact number of HD-ready movie watching consumers as opposed to a potential market consisting of gamers. If current trends continue it will be an easy choice for them to make. BTW I don't own either format.
Someone was saying there will be Europe only Fox releases on HD DVD? If true, this makes my decision a lot easier.

Someone was saying there will be Europe only Fox releases on HD DVD? If true, this makes my decision a lot easier.
http://oto-online.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=97&Itemid=42

Mike Dunn, president of the Home Entertainment division of 20th Century Fox, was first out of the box to pledge a “full-on commitment to Blu-ray, because the 50GB disc is critical and there is overwhelming evidence, both emotional and rational, that the consumer will choose Blu-ray.”

Fox will release eight Blu-ray titles in November along with four from the MGM catalogue which Fox distributes. The titles include Kingdom of Heaven Director’s Cut, a dual-layer disc running to 3 hours 42 minutes.

The Fox titles will be 1080p with 24-bit lossless sound, and sell for around €20.

Dunn confirmed that Fox has “no plans to release on HD-DVD”, thereby aligning Fox/MGM with Disney, Sony and Lionsgate which also have exclusive allegiance to Blu-ray. He also stated that Fox has “no plans” for its discs to have the digital tokens which force a player into signal degradation if the player is connected by analogue component cables instead of copy-protected HDMI. However, Dunn clearly disappointed the press present by confirming Fox’s support for regional coding for Blu-ray.

Fox’s Danny Kay confirms that the codecs used will be MPEG-2 and MPEG-4 AVC. Kay also says that regional coding will not be tied to AACS. But the BD group pledges that there will be no provision for easy code hacking as happens with DVD players. “We are committed to making the region code system as robust as possible,” said group spokesman David Wallstra of Sony.

Warner initially supported only HD DVD, like Universal. But now Warner will release on both formats with “more than 15 HD DVD titles” in Europe for “late 2006”, and “more than ten Blu-ray releases”.

Paramount and Sony also pledged Blu-ray titles in the autumn.

Somebody was wrong.

It's not the messiah, but if you're a studio and you look at it "Let's see, one has sold 75,000 players, the other has sold closer to 475,000 capable machines, with hundreds of thousands more likely to move in the next 6 months, which one should I support?"

There's part of the problem. 400,000 machines aren't even out there yet. And who knows when these "hundreds of thousands" are going to even be AVAILABLE to move. On the opposite end, Microsoft moves around 220-275 thousand units a month, and is poised to own this holiday season.

And that means more potential for HD-DVD player sales if Microsoft can get them into stores fast enough. The idea that the PS3 is going to blow the Xbox 360 out of the water this season is unrealistic.

As for Universal, I'm sure they got a good chunk of change from Microsoft for the King-Kong pack in, and I doubt their HD-DVD sales are exactly lacking since to be honest they have the one of the more impressive catalogs. I'm waiting for that Jurassic Park announcement myself. :)

If Sony was concerned about only the here and now only there actions would have been much differently. Clearly they aren't concerned about "owning" this holiday season. Sony is looking at the bigger picture not just some blip on the timeline ;)

Luckily for me that equals a win win situation :D

Not sure what that "blip" in the timeline is because most places aren't calling Sony in the lead until at least 2008-2009. Clearly no one knows what Sony is and isn't concerned about.

The HD-DVD/Blu-Ray point was that the PS3's release isn't the impending doom of HD-DVD some think it is. Mainly because there are a lot of people can't get a PS3 this holiday season who own 360's that may opt for an HD-DVD player instead. And that means HD-DVD sales.

In other words, this format war ain't ending soon. And personally, I could care less. Miami Vice comes out December 5th, and I've got 6 more on pre-order past that so far.

I agree on that. Neither format will "win" or "lose" for a long time. Which leads to us consumers winner :)

Curious, do you still run that xbox gaming site? Any reason it isn't in your sig any more?

The HD-DVD/Blu-Ray point was that the PS3's release isn't the impending doom of HD-DVD some think it is.The XBOX360 add-on probably guaranteed that it won't be and that this will be a long war. Without that HD DVD might be in some trouble with their G2 players slipping, but it looks to me like the add-on is going to continue selling well (supporting that quite a few gamers also care about movies). I do find it kind of ironic that the HD DVD side looks like it will be propped up by a game system though when many of the arguments against Blu-ray were that it would be a mistake to rely on a game system.

--Darin

The XBOX360 add-on probably guaranteed that it won't be and that this will be a long war. Without that HD DVD might be in some trouble with their G2 players slipping, but it looks to me like the add-on is going to continue selling well (supporting that quite a few gamers also care about movies). I do find it kind of ironic that the HD DVD side looks like it will be propped up by a game system though when many of the arguments against Blu-ray were that it would be a mistake to rely on a game system.

--Darin

I do find it ironic as well. Before the HD-DVD add-on came out I was attacked frequently by the HD-DVD camp. Not an exact quote, but pretty much what was said frequently ."Gamers aren't interest in in movies, it's one or the other"

Now they appear to be loving that I was right in that the truth is gamers do like movies as well.

It's great that PS3 and the add-on are pushing forward.

Actually Brian I retired from my gaming site last month, and handed it over to my senior editor. With a 2 year old kid and the need for more family time, 10 years in the industry was about enough for me. It was a hard choice to make, but in the end for the best. NLG is still up and running though.


The XBOX360 add-on probably guaranteed that it won't be and that this will be a long war. Without that HD DVD might be in some trouble with their G2 players slipping, but it looks to me like the add-on is going to continue selling well (supporting that quite a few gamers also care about movies). I do find it kind of ironic that the HD DVD side looks like it will be propped up by a game system though when many of the arguments against Blu-ray were that it would be a mistake to rely on a game system.

I agree with this, and I do find it a bit ironic myself. But I think, and depending on the angle people take I could be off a little, the debate over game consoles and high capacity drives is whether you have the choice to buy it if you want it as in the Xbox 360 add-on, or if you are being forced to pay more for the console just because it has the drive built in as in the PS3. This is why even though I chose the former I am not militantly anti-Blu-Ray like I've seen on both sides of this war.

Oddly enough, we were talking about pricing earlier. Target's new mail-out catalog here in Maryland has the Xbox 360 on the front cover, and the PS3 on the 4th page. But neither advertisement mentions the core packs for either system.

BUT.......the PS3 add does have X-Men 3 on Blu-Ray in the advertisement. Just like Fox wanted. Hmmm....

Cool, I didn't know Michael. Congrads on the 2 year old, I'm sure all this "war" stuff seems silly when you come home to the little one :)

Hehehe, well. I get the video game wars. Those will never go away. This DVD format war to me seems a little silly. I look at it this way. If HD-DVD wins, then all the people that bought Blu-Ray players and PS3 are screwed. If Blu-Ray wins, all the people that bought HD-DVD players and Xbox 360 add-ons are screwed.

One way or another a whole lot of people are going to get screwed. Who loses? The consumer. How much sense does that really make?

lol.

Well, regardless if they lose it's going to take a long time to know. During that time the consumer will still be benefitting.

For me especially I wasn't going to buy either format until the prices were reasonable but since the PS3 has blu-ray I'm definitely going to buy some blu-rays and SACD's as well (which many say is already dead). Worst case scenario, they'll stop making blu-ray movies and I will not be able to buy or rent any new releases but will have access to whatever had been released up until the time they called it quits. It will still be used very heavily as a kick arse gaming machine which was the number one reason I'm buying it :D

It also seems like many people are forgetting that everyone who owns a PS3 does not have an HDTV. Just about everyone I know still has SDTVs and for the few I know who have HDTVs, most don't know what to do with them.

I'm sure many, many PS3 owners will enjoy their complimentary copy of Talledega Nights.

I'm also sure many, many PS3 owners who have hooked their system using the included composite cable will wonder what the fuss is about, and why they should pay $25-$35 for a fancy DVD.

The composite cable is just one of the myriad things that kill me about Sony's launch of this machine. Instead of "The HD generation begins when we says it does", the infamous Sony quote should read, "The HD generation begins when you fork over $50 for a cable actually capable of carrying a HD picture". I think they sell the component cable for $40 and the HDMI for $60, so I took some liberties and averaged the two. :)

Personally, after seeing HD-DVD in action for the first time on my 360 last week, I hope every PS3 owner with an HDTV takes advantage of their Blu Ray player. As a movie nut, my desire to see HD-DVD triumph over Blu Ray is somewhat negated by my wish for everyone get absolutely blown away by the best picture and sound they've ever experienced.

Maybe I am getting old but I really don't care which format becomes the standard for future HD releases. As long as I can get my favourite classic movies in a 1080p transfer on one format or the other, I couldn't give a toss which format 'Into the blue' or 'Sahara' is released on. I could happily spend a couple of years rewatching classic movies and worry about getting a new format after that. It seems that Universal is the only studio releasing decent movies, I just wish the others would hurry up!

Hehehe, well. I get the video game wars. Those will never go away. This DVD format war to me seems a little silly. I look at it this way. If HD-DVD wins, then all the people that bought Blu-Ray players and PS3 are screwed. If Blu-Ray wins, all the people that bought HD-DVD players and Xbox 360 add-ons are screwed.

One way or another a whole lot of people are going to get screwed. Who loses? The consumer. How much sense does that really make?

Truth is that if there were no format war the consumer would be "screwed" far worse, it's just that they probably wouldn't realize it as clearly.

Prices would likely be higher on both hardware and software and the pressure to innovate and respond to consumer's would be lower if not for the format war.

At the end of the day the hd-dvd players and blu-ray players will still play the existing library of titles as well as standard dvd's so they really won't be "doorstops" as some say.

If for instance hd-dvd's stopped being made there would probably be a library of hundreds of movies already released by that time (already over 100) and the movies would likely be sold off at bargain prices like Laser Discs.

The difference though is unlike laserdiscs these movies will always be high quality releases with great video and sound. Not much of a loss really, especially at $199 :)

I think if any BD exclusive studios decide to go neutral it would be a HUGE blow to an already flailing BD camp. Not to mention, if someone who happens to be studio neutral looks at their HD-DVD vs. BD comparative sales (which they are choosing not to release probably b/c of SONY pressure) it would be game over.

It would be really great if someone in the know would "leak" sales info from say Warner or Paramount or another neutral studio on a comparative per title basis about a month before CES. That would start a buzz, people would start supporting the bigger seller, and then they could announce exclusive support at CES. HUGE...will it happen, we can only dream.

I DO think it will take a bold move from a studio similar to above to cause an all-out winner in the short term as opposed to the long term. I also believe it is just a matter of time before HD-DVD wins and SONY/BD again fails. As is par for the course.

Shout out to all of THE Ohio State University Buckeyes out there! Was that sweet or what :) Have a good year LLLLLoyd!

If HD-DVD wins, then all the people that bought Blu-Ray players and PS3 are screwed. If Blu-Ray wins, all the people that bought HD-DVD players and Xbox 360 add-ons are screwed.


No, whichever format wins, those who bought dedicated decks are screwed. Those who bought game systems will still have hundreds and thousands of games to play on it.

If HD-DVD wins, then all the people that bought Blu-Ray players and PS3 are screwed. If Blu-Ray wins, all the people that bought HD-DVD players and Xbox 360 add-ons are screwed.


No, whichever format wins, those who bought dedicated decks are screwed. Those who bought game systems will still have hundreds and thousands of games to play on it.

If HD-DVD wins, then all the people that bought Blu-Ray players and PS3 are screwed. If Blu-Ray wins, all the people that bought HD-DVD players and Xbox 360 add-ons are screwed.


No, whichever format wins, those who bought dedicated decks are screwed. Those who bought game systems will still have hundreds and thousands of games to play on it.

the overal importance though is that if you buy a ps3 you can play HD movies direct. it will 100% guarantee that who ever has a ps3 will try it out for HD movies as well since there is a movie inside for free.

Really? Every single person who has bought or will buy a PS3 both has an HDTV and bought an HDMI cable to hook it up with? Somehow I kinda doubt it.

You can say that nearly everyone will watch at least 1 Blu-Ray title, but is 480i over composite video really HD? How many people will be turned off to HD movies altogether because Blu-Ray doesn't even look as good as DVD on their TV, and will assume that HD DVD is no better?

No, whichever format wins, those who bought dedicated decks are screwed.

The 360 add-on is a dedicated deck. It serves no other purpose.

The 360 add-on is a dedicated deck. It serves no other purpose.

The point being that no matter which combination you spend your $600 on, it still plays games.

I find it interesting that some people are expecting Disney and/or Lionsgate to go neutral at CES. I think that is very unlikely.

The point being that no matter which combination you spend your $600 on, it still plays games.

Not exactly. I didn't HAVE to buy the HD DVD player. If there is no HD DVD, then my $200 was wasted. I bought the add-on to watch movies since it doesn't play games.

You can't keep discounting current Xbox 360 owners and trying to tack $600 on them as if it's an upfront cost. It's not.

The marginal cost is $199 for the universe of people that already own a Xbox 360.

Their decision to buy the HD add on is a $199 buying decison. The $399 has already been spent. its a sunk cost, and is not considered by most consumers.

I find it interesting that some people are expecting Disney and/or Lionsgate to go neutral at CES. I think that is very unlikely.
You need also to ask why people are hoping/expecting studios to go neutral at CES07.For me and and the growing smaller group of people who support HD-DVD here in HK, its about having a choice of what format i watch a movie in.Sadly for me and many many consumers here and around the world,some studios have taken what can only be described as an 'anti-consumer' approach!

exactly. If the studio just go neutral, I'll be buying my titles on either format based on performance and at the end of the day, we'll see which format wins based on performance vs price ratio.

Right now, as far as studio support goes BD has the unfair advantage.

Right now, as far as studio support goes BD has the unfair advantage.
Why is it unfair that all the people behind BD are interested in one unifying format? If they all went neutral there would never be an end to the format - once one gives in we'll be able to get everything on one format, which is the way it should have been from the beginning.
For me especially I wasn't going to buy either format until the prices were reasonable but since the PS3 has blu-ray I'm definitely going to buy some blu-rays and SACD's as well (which many say is already dead). Worst case scenario, they'll stop making blu-ray movies and I will not be able to buy or rent any new releases but will have access to whatever had been released up until the time they called it quits. It will still be used very heavily as a kick arse gaming machine which was the number one reason I'm buying it :D
SACD is not officially dead in the water yet and there are over 3,000 titles to choose from.
In 2006 alone we've seen Depeche Mode re-release their back catalogue and if you get the UK import you're getting a real treat. It's a CVD/DVD combo.
The CD is a hybrid SACD with CD Stereo, SACD Stereo and Multi-channel, and the DVD has Dolby Digital 5.1 and DTS 96/24 on it. The SACD multi-channel is of course the best version on there.
Genesis have just announced that they will be releasing their entire back catalogue on SACD stereo/multi-channel hybrid CD with DVD combos throughout 2007 and early 2008.
Elton John's first several albums are available, Dire Straits Brothers In Arms, NIN's Downward Spiral, many Police albums, etc., etc.
The format is truly gorgeous to the ears, you'll love it.

Why is it unfair that all the people behind BD are interested in one unifying format? If they all went neutral there would never be an end to the format - once one gives in we'll be able to get everything on one format, which is the way it should have been from the beginning.

It's not unfair just shortsighted. Typically people want the victor of a battle to be the best format. What has Sony and their cronies done but offer subpar movies and expensive players? The studios bought into the boasts of Sony and othes and look where we are. PS3 with issues, Sony movies that suck in PQ and expensive Blu-ray hardware. Yeah that's the perfect collections of ingredients to guarantee consumer success :rolleyes:

I will be surprised if MS pumps out 200000 units this year. I think that number is far too LOW.



Well, the HDMI point is moot, because an HDMI cable doesn't come with the Xbox 360 either, cuz the Xbox 360 cannot support HDMI at all.


i am pretty sure he meant that for hd playback additional cords must be purchased with the ps3 that is not so with the 360

Typically people want the victor of a battle to be the best format.

Although, you clearly do not want that.

What has Sony and their cronies done but offer subpar movies and expensive players? The studios bought into the boasts of Sony and othes and look where we are. PS3 with issues, Sony movies that suck in PQ and expensive Blu-ray hardware. Yeah that's the perfect collections of ingredients to guarantee consumer success :rolleyes:

Let me try to understand your argument. Because Toshiba was willing to subsidize their players to try to buy market share for their technically inferior format in order to try to make up for their lack of studio support and because Sony (one of 5 major Blu-ray only studios) released a few lower quality transfers you hope HD DVD wins. You would prefer a format that has no growth head room to support future requirements (for example 4K transfers as they become popular for theatrical release) or less expensive TV series box sets (3 discs are cheaper than 5 discs, and with the already defined 3 and 4 layer formats, 1 disc instead of 5), etc.

I think I have it now.

/carmi

The XBOX360 add-on probably guaranteed that it won't be and that this will be a long war. Without that HD DVD might be in some trouble with their G2 players slipping, but it looks to me like the add-on is going to continue selling well (supporting that quite a few gamers also care about movies). I do find it kind of ironic that the HD DVD side looks like it will be propped up by a game system though when many of the arguments against Blu-ray were that it would be a mistake to rely on a game system.

--Darin
people said blu ray shouldnt rely on a game system becuz not everybody who has a ps3 will buy movies. on the other hand everybody who has an hd dvd add on will buy atleast 1 movie or why even bother to spend the $200. if the ps3 sells 500k units there is no realistic way to tell how many are buying movies. if the hd dvd add on sells 500k units u know that 500k people are buying movies (or atleast a very large chunk of them, with the rest just renting).
the bluray drive in the ps3 serves 2 purposes, mainly gaming when the add on serves 1 purpose.movies.
400k ps3 users could buy movies..or in contrast only 10k..it is unpredictable


just my .02

people said blu ray shouldnt rely on a game system becuz not everybody who has a ps3 will buy movies. on the other hand everybody who has an hd dvd add on will buy atleast 1 movie or why even bother to spend the $200.

It is true that people that buy Microsoft's HD DVD add-on are doing so to watch movies. People's argument against Sony's Playstation 3 having an impact on this fight is that people are buying these systems just to play games. Every person that buys an HD DVD add-on is spending the same $600 (even if they have done it at two separate times) that Playstation 3 purchasers will spend, and is evidence that people that play games also want HD movies.

/carmi

Although, you clearly do not want that.

Let me try to understand your argument. Because Toshiba was willing to subsidize their players to try to buy market share for their technically inferior format in order to try to make up for their lack of studio support and because Sony (one of 5 major Blu-ray only studios) released a few lower quality transfers you hope HD DVD wins. You would prefer a format that has no growth head room to support future requirements (for example 4K transfers as they become popular for theatrical release) or less expensive TV series box sets (3 discs are cheaper than 5 discs, and with the already defined 3 and 4 layer formats, 1 disc instead of 5), etc.

I think I have it now.

/carmi

Techinically inferior ...LOL

The Panasonic Blu-ray shipped months after HD DVD with NO Lossless codec support

The PS3 is the first Blu-ray player with networking all HD DVD have Networking

Where's the BD-Java stuff? Ooops sorry it wasn't ready. Wait Wait Wait

Oh yeah that Dolby Digital 640k mandatory audio codec is vastly supperior to DD+ 1.5Mbps ...what could I be thinking?

You're understanding the trajectory of codecs. They don't grow over time they shrink and encoding processes get better. In 6 months we've gone from avg bitrates of 18 down to 13Mbs. How is this congruent with your fantasy of 30GB discs suddenly filling up.

4k is not in any of these platform specs. We'd need more bandwidth

Blu-ray is technically superior in areas that don't matter. I don't need lossless audio beyond the native soundtrack. The extra space is nice for extra long play movies. Which happen to be what %5 of all released movies.

Stick a fork in Blu-ray ...it's a solution to a problem that doesn't exist and the sales numbes for media and hardware corroborate this. Sony had to hold the PS3 ransom to further Blu-ray.

Gears of War looks as good as anything on the PS3 and "GASP" it ships on a lowly DVD rom disc.

Swami has spoken.

You're understanding the trajectory of codecs. They don't grow over time they shrink and encoding processes get better. In 6 months we've gone from avg bitrates of 18 down to 13Mbs. How is this congruent with your fantasy of 30GB discs suddenly filling up.

4k is not in any of these platform specs. We'd need more bandwidth


It would be great if you actually edited your posts so that they were standard English. While it is true that neither format currently supports 4K, Blu-ray has more than enough head room to do so.

Panasonic's player supports BD-J quite nicely. Having seen some of Disney's and Fox's discs that take advantage of it, I am impressed.

/carmi

Is there better lossless than raw LPCM? I thought raw LPCM is like CD audio, but more channels, and is the original digital master? Why do you want to have anything more than the digital master?

I thought it was obvious that technically, 50GB is bigger than 30GB? Isn't it also obvious that technically, 40Mbps is higher throughput than 29Mbps?

At least the technical inferior side should be nailed down and agreed on before we talk about codecs and software, because the codecs and software has nothing to do with which storage format is technically inferior. For me, 5400rpm HDD is not as good as 7200rpm HDD, and given a choice, I'll always pay a premium to get a 320GB over a 300GB HDD.

Can we at least agree that 50GB > 30GB and 40Mbps > 29Mbps before we launch into the codec thing?

When your argument begins to fail...attack the poster.


It doesn't matter on if Blu-ray or HD DVD have the bandwidth both would be Diet 4k. You're pushing 4x more pixels than today's 1080p content. You'd likely need to at least triple today's bandwidth given to video to yield the same quality.

I think what you're looking at is BDMV- the more simple menu system.

I don't think Blu-ray can win this battle. The can hope for at best a tie. The BDA hasn't delivered one thing without issue regarding media and hardware. That wouldn't be a problem if the avg price for a BD player wasn't over a $1000.

So far the PS3 hasn't shown an appreciabe uptick in movie sales. As Nataraj says...the attachrate of Blu-ray is now abysmal.

I don't think Blu-ray can win this battle. The can hope for at best a tie.


You don't honestly believe that do you? Even in the face of no standalone HD-DVD players even available in retail stores this holiday season, stagnant movie sales on Amazon, and no hints to any new studio or consumer electronics manufacturer support on the horizon? HD-DVD has never been more doomed. It really only showed up to the party on Amazon.com and a couple online retailers. You can't win the war online, you actually need a good quantity of standalone players at places like Sams, Circuit City, and Best Buy. Right now they have NONE.

Let me try to understand your argument. Because Toshiba was willing to subsidize their players to try to buy market share for their technically inferior format in order to try to make up for their lack of studio support and because Sony (one of 5 major Blu-ray only studios) released a few lower quality transfers you hope HD DVD wins. You would prefer a format that has no growth head room to support future requirements (for example 4K transfers as they become popular for theatrical release) or less expensive TV series box sets (3 discs are cheaper than 5 discs, and with the already defined 3 and 4 layer formats, 1 disc instead of 5), etc.
Before this gets turned into an argument about whether the HD DVD players are subsidized or not, let's get back to what hmurchison meant.

The HD DVD format specifications have better standards for what is to be included in the players - meaning DD+ and TruHD decoding are mandatory. Given that the players are so much cheaper, yet support better audio standards, they are more attractive to buyers - and would be even if they were more expensive.

Further, on the video side, Sony Pictures and Sony Corp continue to insist that mpeg2 is the best next-generation solution. And there continues to be much debate on the Bluray side that AVC and Mpeg2 are apparently the only two choices they are willing to consider.

To be frank and honest, everyone knows that the best material to date has been encoded with VC1.

And since the HD DVD studios seem to have no political issues ACCEPTING that, we know that most, if not all, HD DVD releases will be in VC1.

So we can be confident that sticking with HD DVD will not only give us better value, but will mean that we can have the best quality presentations available
in High Definition Home Video.

Case closed...

Now, if we can get the other studios on board also, then we'll all be even happier.

I know that some folks don't like to hear that the HD DVD players have more features and benefits than the Bluray players. I know they don't like to be reminded that VC1 has been demonstrated to give better quality releases than Mpeg2 and even AVC.

But that's the way it is - love it, feel it, etc etc :)

To be frank and honest, everyone knows that the best material to date has been encoded with VC1.

Not true. But if it makes you sleep better at night ignoring all those MPEG-2 and AVC releases more power to you.


So we can be confident that sticking with HD DVD will not only give us better value, but will mean that we can have the best quality presentations available
in High Definition Home Video.

Everyone in here, except it seems you, knows that the best looking titles on either platform are no better looking than the other. Even the head to head which many people attended here on a 120" ISF calibrated projector couldn't tell the difference.


Now, if we can get the other studios on board also, then we'll all be even happier.

And what if that doesn't happen? What's your position then? Are you happy knowing you only will be buying Universal, Paramount and Warner movies forever? Or is all this HD-DVD rah rah this and rah rah that based on just mere hope that studios will switch. Why would they decide to switch over anyways? It certainly isn't the money when high def movie sales combined account for less than 0.5% of home movie revenue.


I know that some folks don't like to hear that the HD DVD players have more features and benefits than the Bluray players.

But they don't. Blu-ray right now has a player that does full 1080P, decodes DTS HD Master and Dolby TrueHD and has HDMI 1.3. Does HD-DVD have any players that do all of that? Are there any HD-DVD players that have 7.1 analog outs? See when all of your HD-DVD players are either made by one company (Toshiba) or are an optional add-on for a game console (still made by that one company Toshiba) you begin to realize why it is important to have multiple manufacturers on board. In other words, if Toshiba ain't putting it out than HD-DVD doesn't have it. And right now Toshiba ain't putting out ANY standalone players at the moment let alone "more featured ones than Blu-ray."

You don't honestly believe that do you? Even in the face of no standalone HD-DVD players even available in retail stores this holiday season, stagnant movie sales on Amazon, and no hints to any new studio or consumer electronics manufacturer support on the horizon? HD-DVD has never been more doomed. It really only showed up to the party on Amazon.com and a couple online retailers. You can't win the war online, you actually need a good quantity of standalone players at places like Sams, Circuit City, and Best Buy. Right now they have NONE.


Of course I believe it. Sony's last hit was the Playstation and that was beating a Sega that was out of control and Nintendo. Big whoop. Microsoft isn't going to go so easy. The Xbox 360 has better online support and is easier to develop for.

The Amazon sales are stagnant for a reason. 10 of my lat 12 HD DVD purchases have been through establishments supporting Google Checkout deals. I'm not the only one taking advantage of this including Blu-ray fans.

I haven't heard ONE retail establishment state that Blu-ray were doing better. Not one. I went to my local rental shop in North Seattle and whoa there was a couple HD DVD to rent. No Blu-ray.

Eizenga works at Best Buy in Colorado and he states no one is buying Blu-ray. You guys are living in some halcyonic land where you think anyday now people are going to wake up and rush out and buy Blu-ray movies and hardware.


It isn't coming!

The Xbox add on will continue to sell. Toshiba will get the A2 out in december for Xmas launch and next year we're going to see more HD DVD players which will dip below the PS3 pricing. And I'll be here to combat your FUD and enjoy watching this slow but steady victory.

When I had minidisc I was SURE it was going to be a huge North American success and I watch Sony just fumble. Sony has no heart they'll drop a format or back burner it with speed. Toshiba's going to gut Sony and the other Japanese/Korean hegemony. You think people won't buy $299 China made HD DVD players? Think again.

You think people won't buy $299 China made HD DVD players? Think again.
They will to a certain extent, but I think the real mad rush will occur when we got those $199 Chinese-made HD DVD players. Maybe 2008.

Of course I believe it. Sony's last hit was the Playstation and that was beating a Sega that was out of control and Nintendo. Big whoop. Microsoft isn't going to go so easy. The Xbox 360 has better online support and is easier to develop for.

The Amazon sales are stagnant for a reason. 10 of my lat 12 HD DVD purchases have been through establishments supporting Google Checkout deals. I'm not the only one taking advantage of this including Blu-ray fans.

I haven't heard ONE retail establishment state that Blu-ray were doing better. Not one. I went to my local rental shop in North Seattle and whoa there was a couple HD DVD to rent. No Blu-ray.

Eizenga works at Best Buy in Colorado and he states no one is buying Blu-ray. You guys are living in some halcyonic land where you think anyday now people are going to wake up and rush out and buy Blu-ray movies and hardware.


It isn't coming!

The Xbox add on will continue to sell. Toshiba will get the A2 out in december for Xmas launch and next year we're going to see more HD DVD players which will dip below the PS3 pricing. And I'll be here to combat your FUD and enjoy watching this slow but steady victory.

When I had minidisc I was SURE it was going to be a huge North American success and I watch Sony just fumble. Sony has no heart they'll drop a format or back burner it with speed. Toshiba's going to gut Sony and the other Japanese/Korean hegemony. You think people won't buy $299 China made HD DVD players? Think again.

Actually Sony's last hit wasn't the Playstation, it was the Playstation2. As for Amazon sales are stagnant for HD-DVD because of your individual buying habits, give us a break. That is supposed to prove it? Then why are Blu-ray sales increasing? Are people who buy Blu-ray oblivious to Google checkout but those who buy HD-DVD are special? None of us think that people will "suddenly rush out and buy Blu-ray movies." Though they are rushing out and buying up PS3's. I think most of us believe Blu-ray will have a nice steady increase in interest in sales and hardware and players, which is exactly what has been happening. It certainly takes a lot less faith to think Blu-ray interest will slowly increase over the next year then the pipe dream that all these studios will switch their product strategies and begin releasing on another high def format. Well let me tell you...


It isn't coming!

And as for the rest of your post it is just anecdotal. Wow you mean your local rental shop in Seattle doesn't carry Blu-ray? Well then that proves it! I am surprised you are this into these discussions though where actually admit that you will "enjoy" watching Blu-ray fail. Weird wild stuff man. It's just some video disc format.

They will to a certain extent, but I think the real mad rush will occur when we got those $199 Chinese-made HD DVD players. Maybe 2008.

Agreed. I bought into DVD when I could get a Onkyo DVD player for $200. I don't want to wait for HD to get that low but things become interesting when you hit $199. That's an impulse purchase pricepoint there.

I also agree that 2008 will be the timeframe. I'm thinking we will be at $299 for Xmas 2007. I could see Blu-ray down at that level if the optics become cheaper. We'll see.

When your argument begins to fail...attack the poster.


I have not attacked you, just asked politely if you would edit your posts to make them conform to standard English in order to make them easier to read.

It doesn't matter on if Blu-ray or HD DVD have the bandwidth both would be Diet 4k. You're pushing 4x more pixels than today's 1080p content. You'd likely need to at least triple today's bandwidth given to video to yield the same quality.

Given that you have stated that 13Mb/s is currently enough to encode currently, 3 times that is 39Mb/s, still less than 40Mb/s. Based on talking to various experts in this field, I think that one could encode 4k in about 30-35Mb/s, which, even with audio fits in 40Mb/s, but does not fit in 29Mb/s.

I think what you're looking at is BDMV- the more simple menu system.

You may think what you wish, but you would be wrong. These were BD-J titles.

I don't think Blu-ray can win this battle. The can hope for at best a tie. The BDA hasn't delivered one thing without issue regarding media and hardware. That wouldn't be a problem if the avg price for a BD player wasn't over a $1000.

Not sure how you calculate the average price, nor even what that means, but given that one can buy HDMI 1.3 equipped Blu-ray players today for $499 and cannot buy any HD DVD HDMI 1.3 equipped HD DVD player any where near that price, I am not sure that it matters. Further, Sony has successfully delivered 50GB media on schedule, so once again I am not really clear what you mean.

So far the PS3 hasn't shown an appreciabe uptick in movie sales. As Nataraj says...the attachrate of Blu-ray is now abysmal.

When someone posts the Videoscan data for sales, I will be happy to discuss the attach rate with you. Currently I have seen no meaningful data on this topic.

/carmi

Of course I believe it. Sony's last hit was the Playstation and that was beating a Sega that was out of control and Nintendo. Big whoop. Microsoft isn't going to go so easy. The Xbox 360 has better online support and is easier to develop for.

developers whine everytime a new playstation comes out about how difficult it is to program for, yet they continually have the most titles and the best sales. even without a good online service, ps2 is outselling xbox360...PS2 mind you!!!!


I haven't heard ONE retail establishment state that Blu-ray were doing better. Not one. I went to my local rental shop in North Seattle and whoa there was a couple HD DVD to rent. No Blu-ray.

Eizenga works at Best Buy in Colorado and he states no one is buying Blu-ray. You guys are living in some halcyonic land where you think anyday now people are going to wake up and rush out and buy Blu-ray movies and hardware.

well it's a much differen't story in the socal market for Best Buy, Blu-Ray sales in our district are nearly 2-1 in favor of blu-ray. We average 1 unit per week Blu Ray. .53 HDDVD. I'd like to see his store number, and see just how many his store is really doing. as for the mom & pop rental shop...is that supppossed to prove anything?



You think people won't buy $299 China made HD DVD players? Think again.
$299 chinese players & j6p are going to be the savior of HDDVD??? lol, okie dokie :rolleyes: been hearing that for 7 months.

The Amazon sales are stagnant for a reason. 10 of my lat 12 HD DVD purchases have been through establishments supporting Google Checkout deals. I'm not the only one taking advantage of this including Blu-ray fans.

You are quite adept at holding contradictory positions. When Amazon shows better HD DVD sales it proves that HD DVD is winning, when it does not, it shows that Amazon does not matter.

When I had minidisc I was SURE it was going to be a huge North American success and I watch Sony just fumble. Sony has no heart they'll drop a format or back burner it with speed.

Another example of holding contradictory idea. You use MiniDisc to show that Sony will lose, while in your next statement claim that Sony will drop a format "with speed". Unfortunately, Sony's problem is often doing exactly the opposite, backing a format long after they should have killed it (Sony continues to promote MiniDisc even today).

Toshiba will get the A2 out in december for Xmas launch and next year we're going to see more HD DVD players which will dip below the PS3 pricing.

Toshiba's current ship date is (at best) 18 December. While that is before Christmas, it is not before tomorrow (Black Friday - which used to begin this buying season, but is now past the middle of it). Even if there are no further delays, it will come too late for most people to buy this year as a gift. You state that there will be other players that will be even cheaper, on what do you base this statement?

You think people won't buy $299 China made HD DVD players? Think again.

Would please provide a release date for these players? Can you point to an announced product?

/carmi

Brian

Pernaps Californian consumers are a bit more gullible regarding Blu-ray pitches. I'd expect the PS2 to outsell the Xbox 360 based on price and overall selection of games.

Actually HD DVD doesn't need a savior. Everything is pointing towards a nice and steady path to victory. 7 million and counting Xbox 360 owners. 2nd generation Toshiba units and a rather weak PS3 launch. Consider the BDA VERY lucky if they keep 2 studios from going neutral. I've seen nothing that warrants a studio being exclusive from both camps.

majortom

No I'm not trying to contradict myself but rather explain that the Google checkout saving can and will apply to BD sales as well. I really try to be open about both formats. Blu-ray is some solid engineering and it has its bright spots but for movie distribution I think HD DVD makes more sense for all parties involved. Production to consumer there is a value added benefit to HD DVD that I don't see with Blu-ray quite as clearly.

Sony hasn't "promoted" MD at all. It's on life support in NA. They have one model available and that model doesn't support the latest MD discs (the larger ones) and more. I'm disappointed.

How is 7 million 360 owners a victory? You have no guarantee that even 5% of them (and likely less) will ever buy the thing

And it's 7 million shipped, 4.5 actually sold

Every person that buys an HD DVD add-on is spending the same $600 (even if they have done it at two separate times) that Playstation 3 purchasers will spend, and is evidence that people that play games also want HD movies.

Best Buy doesn't seem to agree:

http://www.homemediaretailing.com/index.cfm?sec_id=2
Not even the much-anticipated Nov. 17 launch of Sony’s PlayStation 3 with a Blu-ray Disc drive gives Lucas much hope for a groundswell of high-def packaged-media interest.

“Most people are going to be using PS3 as a gaming system,” said Lucas, who added the launch coupled with Nintendo’s Wii system introduction two days later was almost unprecedented in gaming.

He said some early adopters would test out a Blu-ray movie on the PS3, but it’s not likely large numbers of consumers will flock to establish Blu-ray movie libraries.

Brian Lucas is a spokesperson for Best Buy. And while I realize there are people here who seem to think they know more than the spokespeople for Best Buy, this is what their position is.


And it doesn't matter how many times you try to attach the original cost of the Xbox 360 to the add-on, it doesn't make the point correct unless that sale included both in the same timeframe. You can say it 100 times and it doesn't make it true.

How is 7 million 360 owners a victory? You have no guarantee that even 5% of them (and likely less) will ever buy the thing

You have no guarantee that either a) 5% of the humans above the age of 16 will buy a PS3 or b) 5% of even THOSE people would buy Blu-ray movies.

And it's 7 million shipped, 4.5 actually sold

And if a measly 1 in 10 of those people did buy the add-on, that's more than the PS3 will have likely sold through the holidays. And I WOULD guarantee the attach rate would be higher on the add-on, seeing as how it has a specific purpose in playing movies.


ps2 is outselling xbox360...PS2 mind you!!!!

The PS2 is a 6 year old system that is easily $250 less than the Premium pack. The fact that the sales figures aren't THAT far apart is more telling considering the price difference.

BTW, the core pack is now running for $100 on Amazon. It's already about crashed their website. I'm dying to see the November numbers when they come out.

You are quite adept at holding contradictory positions. When Amazon shows better HD DVD sales it proves that HD DVD is winning, when it does not, it shows that Amazon does not matter.


At the same time when HD-DVD winning, sales figures at Amazon does not matter to BD fanboys, but when it's stagnant suddenly it matter.



Another example of holding contradictory idea. You use MiniDisc to show that Sony will lose, while in your next statement claim that Sony will drop a format "with speed". Unfortunately, Sony's problem is often doing exactly the opposite, backing a format long after they should have killed it (Sony continues to promote MiniDisc even today).


Don't forget that MD was and still plays quite a role in Asian and part of European markets. When Sony is trying to push a truly dead format such as MicroMV, it's in and out within a couple of years.



Toshiba's current ship date is (at best) 18 December. While that is before Christmas, it is not before tomorrow (Black Friday - which used to begin this buying season, but is now past the middle of it). Even if there are no further delays, it will come too late for most people to buy this year as a gift. You state that there will be other players that will be even cheaper, on what do you base this statement?


Sony's current ship date is 26th of December. Your point?



Would please provide a release date for these players? Can you point to an announced product?

Announcement without delivery means absolutely nothing... such as announcement after announcement after announcement after announcement for Sony BD player, Pioneer BD player.

What is all this crap about a Blu Ray player being available at 499????? Where???? Can I go to Best Buy right now and pick one up???? That answer is no. These Blu ray saviors won't be available for "walk in and buys" for quite some time.

And do you honestly....now honestly....seriously honestly believe that 52 yr old John and Jane Doe....who have no kids and want to start watching Blu Ray are going to go looking for the PS3 as a Blu Ray option? Thats rediculous. Could happen I suppose, but highly unlikely.

I find it interesting that some people are expecting Disney and/or Lionsgate to go neutral at CES. I think that is very unlikely.
no the studios should stay out of this war and produce movies for both sides thats the fair thing to do,i thing this war would get really interesting! the other thing is sonys not looking at the big picture,they got to sell now ,not later,look a company makes a product right,now if the product dont sell they stop making it,they only push there product so long then its gone for good.

What is all this crap about a Blu Ray player being available at 499????? Where???? Can I go to Best Buy right now and pick one up???? That answer is no. These Blu ray saviors won't be available for "walk in and buys" for quite some time.
Nor can you even pick up an HDDVD stand alone player...AT ANY PRICE!!!
But you can have your hand at several BD choices..just they cost more than $499 unless you buy a refurb online or can find a ps3.



And do you honestly....now honestly....seriously honestly believe that 52 yr old John and Jane Doe....who have no kids and want to start watching Blu Ray are going to go looking for the PS3 as a Blu Ray option? Thats rediculous. Could happen I suppose, but highly unlikely.

No, because they still have a VCR and come in regularly asking where the vcr movies are.

Nor can you even pick up an HDDVD stand alone player...AT ANY PRICE!!!


really? you can still buy both the HD-A1 and its RCA sibling at many place in Canada. The world doesn't stop at US borders, you know. :rolleyes:

Brian

Pernaps Californian consumers are a bit more gullible regarding Blu-ray pitches.


Southern California is by far the dominant territory in all of Best Buy month in and month out. Has been since their arrival in California.

really? you can still buy both the HD-A1 and its RCA sibling at many place in Canada. The world doesn't stop at US borders, you know. :rolleyes:

Well, the HD-A1 is discontinued and hasn't been available in B&M's here for about 6 weeks. If the BB's in Canada still have A1's that doesn't exactly show a warm fuzzy reception for the format there.

And Best Buy does not carry the RCA player, are you reffering to a differen't store? or does the Canadian locations have it?

Canada...lol :rolleyes: what did you guys get like 30 ps3's for the whole nation along with Hong Kong.. If you rely on Old Canada to be the savior of HDDVD you are sadly mistaken.

Nor can you even pick up an HDDVD stand alone player...AT ANY PRICE!!!
But you can have your hand at several BD choices..just they cost more than $499 unless you buy a refurb online or can find a ps3.




No, because they still have a VCR and come in regularly asking where the vcr movies are.

You are diluted.

Yeah....you can have your hands on MANY BD players because they are simply not selling...You say BB is Cali is selling more BD...come to New York, stacks of Samsungs on the shelf...BD inventory is simply not mooving, while HD DVD players are just plain SOLD OUT.

Also...this is your quote, "well it's a much differen't story in the socal market for Best Buy, Blu-Ray sales in our district are nearly 2-1 in favor of blu-ray. We average 1 unit per week Blu Ray. .53 HDDVD. I'd like to see his store number, and see just how many his store is really doing."

How is it even possible that the average is .53???? souldn't it be zero if there are no HD DVD players available anywhere at all?????? I'm calling you out as a LIAR!

Well, the HD-A1 is discontinued and hasn't been available in B&M's here for about 6 weeks. If the BB's in Canada still have A1's that doesn't exactly show a warm fuzzy reception for the format there.

And Best Buy does not carry the RCA player, are you reffering to a differen't store? or does the Canadian locations have it?


Well, you did say

Nor can you even pick up an HDDVD stand alone player...AT ANY PRICE!!! :D So if you have the moolah, yes you can pick them up in Canada. Another reason HD-DVD (and BD) are not being picked up by as many Canadians because of 3 reasons:

1. lack of available titles (yes, you can buy them at Amazon.com; but that's not exactly convenient)
2. crazy pricing on HD-DVD / BD titles (you can't even buy from Amazon.ca because their pricing is insane, you HAVE to get them from Amazon.com)
3. still-insane pricing of the player ($700 for brand-new HD-A1/RCA counterpart, $500 for open-box; no refurbished unit sold here -- Samsung BD players are in abundance at -- get this -- $1200; also no refurbished unit note: prices are in US dollars AFTER adding Canadians' 14% taxes then converted to US dollars)

Furthermore, buying players from outside Canada will void the warranty. However, it's not the case if Americans buying their players from Canada.

Actually HD DVD doesn't need a savior. Everything is pointing towards a nice and steady path to victory. 7 million and counting Xbox 360 owners.

How many of these have so far purchased HD DVD add-ons?

2nd generation Toshiba units

Announced, but not shipping, and not expected to ship soon enough to matter in this holiday purchase season.

a rather weak PS3 launch.

We will see how strong or weak it was when the buying season ends.

Consider the BDA VERY lucky if they keep 2 studios from going neutral. I've seen nothing that warrants a studio being exclusive from both camps.

You have said on many occasions, that there will be more studios "going neutral". Do you have any evidence of this? Would you please tell us which ones and when they will make their announcements?

Blu-ray is some solid engineering and it has its bright spots but for movie distribution I think HD DVD makes more sense for all parties involved. Production to consumer there is a value added benefit to HD DVD that I don't see with Blu-ray quite as clearly.

Would you please articulate what those benefits are? You have spoken of mandatory decoder support, but I will note that while DTS is not mandatory in current DVD, there are almost no players available that do not support it. What does matter is physical limitations (capacity, bandwidth) and in those areas, Blu-ray clearly wins.

Sony hasn't "promoted" MD at all.

Please show me where I said that Sony promoted MiniDisc, and where I said they did this in North America.

Even if it does not dominate the market for next generation video games, Sony will sell millions of Playstation 3 consoles. Everyone of those is a Blu-ray player. That guarantees that Blu-ray discs will continue to be made. Millions of Blu-ray discs will be pressed for games alone, driving prices down for all Blu-ray disc users. HD DVD must live or die just on its use as a pre-recorded content format, a much harder proposition.

Blu-ray's use for games, recordable computer media, pre-recorded content, and soon for user recorded content means that it will be able to achieve economies of scale faster then Toshiba's independent format (I find it funny that HD DVD supporters constantly refer to Blu-ray as a Sony proprietary format, even though every major electronics company except Toshiba supports it). HD DVD supporters have also argued that Blu-ray's wide manufacturer support is a detriment as it will prevent any one manufacturer from achieving the scale necessary to drive prices down. This might be true were these companies to make all their components completely on their own. Since that is clearly not the case, the scale is based on all users of the technology, not just an individual manufacturer's own purchases. Toshiba, acting alone, with a format that is exclusively used for pre-recorded content will have a hard time matching that scale.

/carmi

Announced, but not shipping, and not expected to ship soon enough to matter in this holiday purchase season.




Just like Sony 1st Gen BD player, Pioneer 1st gen BD player. At least Toshiba is releasing their SECOND gen BD player. :p

All the 1st gen Toshiba HD-DVD players can be found with simple searches online (HD-D1, HD-A1 HD-AX1). In addition, the RCA can be had at CC and at WallyWorld (and their respective websites). So you are wrong to say that you can't find an HD-DVD player anywhere.

What is all this crap about a Blu Ray player being available at 499????? Where???? Can I go to Best Buy right now and pick one up???? That answer is no. These Blu ray saviors won't be available for "walk in and buys" for quite some time.


20GB PS3 is $499

no the studios should stay out of this war and produce movies for both sides thats the fair thing to do

Since when is a business worth billions about fairness? No one wanted the format war, Toshiba decided they weren't going to share the royalties with anyone anymore like they did on DVD.

You are diluted

OK, I couldn't come up with anything that wasn't really really rude, I think we can just share the hilarity in our own ways :)

Just like Sony 1st Gen BD player, Pioneer 1st gen BD player. At least Toshiba is releasing their SECOND gen BD player. :p

Except that there are many players still in stores, while there are almost no HD-A1 players available.

/carmi

20GB PS3 is $499

No sh1t buddy...thanks for the news flash. Guess you missed sarcasm class in 7th grade.

Fact of the matter is, and the point of my post you quoted, you won't be able to walk right in to Best Buy anytime soon and pick one up. And no adult(other than early adopters) are going to get into Blu Ray and think of the PS3 as their first option for a stand alone BD player.

Except that there are many players still in stores, while there are almost no HD-A1 players available.

/carmi

Which is great for HD DVD....public snatched up all available units :D

Which is great for HD DVD....public snatched up all available units :D

Yes they sold all that they had, somewhere between 25,000 and 70,000 (depending on whose numbers you believe). Unfortunately, they will miss almost this entire buying season because of their mistake. Toshiba had expected to ship 200,000 players by year's end, this will be difficult for them to do with no product available.

/carmi

Yes they sold all that they had, somewhere between 25,000 and 70,000 (depending on whose numbers you believe). Unfortunately, they will miss almost this entire buying season because of their mistake. Toshiba had expected to ship 200,000 players by year's end, this will be difficult for them to do with no product available.

/carmi

Well, I guess you can say the same for the PS3 aswell. I can't really get into all this bickering. I support HD DVD now....If it wins....great....if they lose, I'll buy a BD player. i really don't give a rats ass.

BD fans will buy HD DVD players if Blu Ray fails. Its really as simple as that.

Well, I guess you can say the same for the PS3 aswell.

Except as I mentioned earlier, unlike Toshiba's situation, Samsung and Panasonic both have players in stores. In addition, even with Sony's problems, they will have many more Playstation 3 consoles in stores than Toshiba will have HD-A2 players this holiday season.

I can't really get into all this bickering. I support HD DVD now....If it wins....great....if they lose, I'll buy a BD player. i really don't give a rats ass.

Then I am glad I will not have to expect any further response from you.

/carmi

No sh1t buddy...thanks for the news flash. Guess you missed sarcasm class in 7th grade.

Fact of the matter is, and the point of my post you quoted, you won't be able to walk right in to Best Buy anytime soon and pick one up. And no adult(other than early adopters) are going to get into Blu Ray and think of the PS3 as their first option for a stand alone BD player.

Could've done it a few days ago. My BB is getting shipments every 2-3 days of a dozen or so decks. So yes, as long as you call ahead and find out when they are expecting a truck, you can walk out with one in the next 48 hours or so.

Yes they sold all that they had, somewhere between 25,000 and 70,000 (depending on whose numbers you believe). Unfortunately, they will miss almost this entire buying season because of their mistake. Toshiba had expected to ship 200,000 players by year's end, this will be difficult for them to do with no product available.

Well, if you think about it, the PS3 only shipped about 175k to MAYBE 200k if you believe the higher number, so it's not exactly as far and away as people want to make it sound. And if Toshiba ships the HD-A2 on the 18th, then they could hit 200,000 by years end, since a product will be available.

In addition, even with Sony's problems, they will have many more Playstation 3 consoles in stores than Toshiba will have HD-A2 players this holiday season.

Oh, I doubt seriously that is going to be true. Sony already came in so far under their initial "400,000" launch number that they are going to have trouble just hitting 400,000 for the entire holiday season, barring they were actually purposely holding a million PS3's somewhere out in AREA-51.

BTW, you can get a Toshiba player in a couple of the Best Buy's here in Maryland. And Tweeter's Thanksgiving mailer lists the Toshiba above all the Blu-ray players. Not to mention being able to get an RCA player online via Wal-Mart and Amazon. Oh yeah, and the Xbox 360 add-ons for us irrelevant Xbox 360 owners.

Speaking of mailers. How odd that neither Best Buy, Circuit City, Wal-Mart, or the like, are advertising HD discs of either format in their Black Friday/Weekend sales? I went through all of them looking for either, and found neither. Tweeter was the only one. So much for the big chains "heavily pushing Blu-ray" as I was told in another thread.


Blu-ray's use for games, recordable computer media, pre-recorded content, and soon for user recorded content means that it will be able to achieve economies of scale faster then Toshiba's independent format (I find it funny that HD DVD supporters constantly refer to Blu-ray as a Sony proprietary format, even though every major electronics company except Toshiba supports it).

Hmmmmm, well it would seem to me that since HD DVD was the approved and voted on successor to DVD by DVDforum.org, which I thought was the conglomeration of the digital world (CE's, studios, etc. And Fox happens to be a member iirc) and the standard-keepers of the DVD format, one could argue Blu-ray is indeed the "renegade" format. It has so much support because Sony promised them ice cream dreams and lollypop kisses if they backed the format.

I imagine at least in some exec's mind, patience is starting to wear just a little thin......just a little.

Obviously if Universal went neutral, that would be huge for BD - but I don't know that the HD DVD audience can't be completely happy for a good while with things as they currently stand otherwise/anyway.

Actually, that would likely end this fight. That would mean that Fox, Disney, MGM and Lionsgate would all be Blu-ray exclusive and no one would be HD DVD exclusive.

I mean, even if no new studios announce neutrality at CES - I could easily see a scenario where by that point the add-on, other HD DVD players, and HD DVD software itself has still outsold BD by a significant margin.

Given that Toshiba will not have players for sale through most of this buying season, your scenario is unlikely.

If that were true and the Q1 title release line-ups announced by Paramount, WB, and Universal also seemed as plentiful and attractive to whatever is announced by the BD group - then there is essentially no reason to say that the gap between the two formats will not continue to grow in HD DVD's favor, as it has been.

Actually, there is a strong reason to expect that the gap will begin to shrink and soon will soon turn around. Fox had not even begun to release titles until this month. Looking at released and announced titles, the gap has almost disappeared.

Here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8959944&&#post8959944) is a post that shows currently released titles.

Here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8960119&&#post8960119) is a post with upcoming releases.

Well, because that's essentially how things have played out exactly so far.

Ever hear a phrase that is common in ads for mutual funds: "Past performance is no guarantee of future results"? Up until November, Fox had not released a single title. In addition, Toshiba has not had any of its subsidized players available for a while and has not released any of its second generation players. Blu-ray, in contrast, has sold many Playstation 3 systems and still has both Samsung and Panasonic players in stores.

And looking into the immediate/known future - things don't seem set to change. The add-on and the PS3 seem like they will have equal software sales momentum and the release line-up for BD hasn't yet convinced many people of anything.

Actually, I will be shocked if their are any where near as many HD DVD add-ons sold as Playstation 3 consoles. While it is true that all HD DVD add-on customers are interested in movies, I expect that more movies will be sold to Playstation 3 customers (not a higher attach rate, just a larger absolute number of movies) as they do not have to do anything special to be able to watch movies.

Point is - at the end of the day, HD DVD still has more titles out, is cheaper, has a greater high PQ ratio, and is perhaps easier to find (compared to, say, the PS3).

Again, as I pointed out above, HD DVD has just a few more titles available (and fewer announced titles), has no standalone inexpensive players available and 99% of buyers will not know or care about the early disc issues (and would not be able to see the problems any way), your argument does not hold up.

So absorb that truth and the fact that starting November 20th, many of us will be importing Sony/Fox titles on HD DVD from Europe anyway...and I really don't see how BD will necessarily hit any peak higher than what HD DVD has already.

Sorry, no appreciable group of American users are going to order titles from Europe just as few will order Universal titles from Japan on Blu-ray.

/carmi

Well, if you think about it, the PS3 only shipped about 175k to MAYBE 200k if you believe the higher number, so it's not exactly as far and away as people want to make it sound. And if Toshiba ships the HD-A2 on the 18th, then they could hit 200,000 by years end, since a product will be available.I guess that could happen. If you believe it the tooth fairy or miracles of divine intervention. :rolleyes: DVD only sold 233,505 players in Dec. 1998, the 2nd year after it was introduced. That was a whole month. At 200,000 for 13 days that would be a monthly sales rate of 460,000. That would be close to DVD Sep. 1999 @ 501,501 players sold. They will do good to get half of DVDs Dec. 1997 sales of 42,575 ( in other words around 20,000 units tops for the A2.)

Oh and don't forget all of those Xbox addons that are being sold... that's going to eat Toshiba's lunch too. ;)

b2b

20GB PS3 is $499


The original comment was
What is all this crap about a Blu Ray player being available at 499????? Where???? Can I go to Best Buy right now and pick one up???? That answer is no. These Blu ray saviors won't be available for "walk in and buys" for quite some time.

So if I send you a check for $499 and shipping, and maybe a couple of buck for gas money, you'll send me a PS3 tomorrow?

no the studios should stay out of this war and produce movies for both sides thats the fair thing to do,i thing this war would get really interesting! the other thing is sonys not looking at the big picture,they got to sell now ,not later,look a company makes a product right,now if the product dont sell they stop making it,they only push there product so long then its gone for good.
Well said.

And that, in summary, is what this whole thread was about.

The question: "Would new studio neutrality at CES even be that important?"
The answer: YES.

Which is why some folks here seem to concerned about beating back the discussion.

Having BR-exclusive studios is about the ONLY thing that is keeping Bluray in the "potential" running right now. If it weren't for the exclusive studios, these BR players, which are more expensive, have less features, less movies available, and selling a fraction of HD DVD - would already be dead.

It's the one thing that BR supporters are guaranteed to fight "to the death", so to speak, to retain.

It's the one thing that owners of HD DVD players (who represent the majority of this HD disc market) feel is artificial and unfair.

We feel very strongly that the smart thing for the growth of HD is that studios should be supporting both formats so that consumers have confidence in the viability of HD optical discs in general.

That way consumers can get on with life and focus on getting new libraries of HD discs without worrying about a "format war" raging around them.

Rjdam. your wrong. both Hd-DVD and bluray have far from delivered as promised.

how many Hd-DVD dont even have extras in 1080p but only 480p only. then you have to take combo discs because you cant chose to have a combo disc yes or no.

then there is the audio issue with Hd-DVD. where are the TRUE-DTs tracks, LPCMtracks, DTS-Hd tracks?

bluray has also issues ofcourse. but to say HD-DVD is the favourite. so far bluray can do everything HD-DVd can do. the only difference is that bluray uses 50gb discs and HD-DVd 30gb max so far.

what does that mean? that we can actually see extras in 1080p on bluray instead of 480p that are on the HD-DVD releases.

also i want the studios to utilise the format as best as possible. look for example warner. warner releases superman returns on HD-DVd with extras in 480p. they could have released that same superman returns on bluray with 1080p extras and uncompressed audiotrack. ofcourse warner doesnt do that, because it would show right there that storage actually matters. and that 50gb would have made a difference for that movie.

i only like studios to go format non format exclusive, if the other format is actually better then the other. but so far both arent better then each other. actually pure from a hardware standpoint. bluray seems to be better then HD-DVD. we see movies on bluray in mpeg-2, VC-1 , AVC and audio going from DD plus to lpcm, DTS-HD, TRUE-DTS.

also it seems many people have actually problems with their Toshiba players. the reason why within 1 year we see a second generation player. pretty soon dont you think?

why would toshiba need a second generation player if the hardware was just that good?

so overall it is way to soon to say studios should go multi format. i like to see this format war continue for at least a year, because so far bluray and hd-dvd havent lived up to their true potential yet.

The above is just a rehash - rather not go in a circle again.

You don't need DTS-HD if you already have TruHD - it's the same end result, losslessly encoded audio.

Most BR discs are 25 Gigs, not 50, so 30 Gigs of HD DVD is actually bigger than most BR discs.

Warner is not releasing standard def extras because of limitations in HD DVD, but simply because it's still early days in HD discs and not many folks are releasing extras in HD yet, since most of this production is on SD video setups.

You're dishing FUD on the Toshiba players again - 95% of the owners are happy, whereas 65% of Sammy owners were so unhappy they returned theirs!

Reverse "spin" on second gen players - everyone will have second and third gen players. HD DVD is developing faster than Bluray, despite all the CE folks involved in BR. Your trying to turn this into a negative is really ludicrous.

Thanks for a meaningful contribution to the discussion... :rolleyes:

rdjam. ofcourse everyone will have second generation players at 1 time. but who tought it came that fast? most of the time the second generation comes after 1 year. not after 6 months.

also where are the TRUE HD tracks on the movies? so far on bluray we get lots of them, on HD-DVd we dont get that many of them. where is king kong TRUE-DTS track or dTS-HD or LPCM track?

also i am not dishing about the HD-DVD players at all. it is just cold hard facts. we have a toshiba player here in the office. it works great. never had a problem with it. but we bought the japanse version of 1000 usa dollars.

many people complained about sync errors on their Hd-DVd players. errors which are as well in the xbox360 addon when playing a TRUE-DTs track. then why wont studios not put a DTS-HD track or a LPCM track? maybe that is the reason why we dont see so many of those TRUE-DTS audio tracks in the movies on Hd-DVD?

also the reason 95% of the people is happy with the toshiba who cares. nice to know. fact is their are some serious problems with the toshiba player. dont spin around it ,because again as i said in 6 months toshiba comes already with a new unit.

so HD-DVD superior over bluray? i dont think so. besides Fox already announches Alien Vs predator. the first seamless breaching movie in HD. when will HD-DVD announche 1?

and doesnt fox release flight of the phoenix which can be used with that moving chair?

so which format is technical more advanced then the other? it seems HD-DVD is the 1 that is catching up at this moment not bluray.

so yes i deliver a meaningful contribution to this discussion, because i at least dont pretend i live in lala land. i base it simply on facts that i can read on forums of people who have bluray or hd-dvd players.

and saying it is still early days, that is true. but the fact is that paramount went all crazy on it and deliver a 2 disc release with everything in 1080p. so yes studios can do it. and i am sure if paramount can do it Warner can do too.

that is why it is way to early to finish this format war. let it continue for a year so we can at least see which format delivers in total. because so far and i say it again bluray and hd-dvd havent lived up yet.

then there is the audio issue with Hd-DVD. where are the TRUE-DTs tracks, LPCMtracks, DTS-Hd tracks?

Do you even know what Dolby TrueHD is? It's a LOSSLESS codec. LOSSLESS = LPCM but with far less space. So why the need from DTS-HD, LPCM etc? :rolleyes: BD requires LPCM because it currently can't internally decode Dolby TrueHD... so which one that is more advanced? In my book BD with is MPEG 2 and LPCM means it uses ancient technology.

Please understand the technology before spewing garbage such as this.

rdjam. ofcourse everyone will have second generation players at 1 time. but who tought it came that fast? most of the time the second generation comes after 1 year. not after 6 months.

At least we're talking about 2nd gen players. Sony, the biggest backer of BD can't even get their 1st gen player. :D


also where are the TRUE HD tracks on the movies? so far on bluray we get lots of them, on HD-DVd we dont get that many of them. where is king kong TRUE-DTS track or dTS-HD or LPCM track?

On the other hand on HD-DVD we get lots of great quality video, on BD we don't get that many of them (I own both formats, I'm talking from personal experience)


also i am not dishing about the HD-DVD players at all. it is just cold hard facts. we have a toshiba player here in the office. it works great. never had a problem with it. but we bought the japanse version of 1000 usa dollars.

So what about that "serious problems" you're harping about? You're contradicting yourself. Just by having a Toshiba player at your office is not the same as using it at your house.


many people complained about sync errors on their Hd-DVd players. errors which are as well in the xbox360 addon when playing a TRUE-DTs track. then why wont studios not put a DTS-HD track or a LPCM track? maybe that is the reason why we dont see so many of those TRUE-DTS audio tracks in the movies on Hd-DVD?

Because there is NO NEED. How thick one's skull have to be to not realize that there is no point of LPCM when there is already a LOSSLESS soundtrack? Kindly check what lossless means. Once you have lossless, it doesn't matter whether you want to compare it with the DTS codec or LPCM. Why? because it's LOSSLESS !!! :rolleyes: PS: Funny that I have yet to have a single audio sync problem.


also the reason 95% of the people is happy with the toshiba who cares. nice to know. fact is their are some serious problems with the toshiba player. dont spin around it ,because again as i said in 6 months toshiba comes already with a new unit.

I thought you do care because you keep mentioning about "serious problems". What serious problems? Do you even own one? If the problems are serious, then people will not be happy. Are people that stupid and you are the only smart one of the bunch?


so HD-DVD superior over bluray? i dont think so. besides Fox already announches Alien Vs predator. the first seamless breaching movie in HD. when will HD-DVD announche 1?

announced, not released. Just like the announcement of Sony 1st gen player that never comes.



so which format is technical more advanced then the other? it seems HD-DVD is the 1 that is catching up at this moment not bluray.

See my post above. Some BD titles are still using MPEG2 and LPCM. Those are 'ancient' technology compared to VC-1 and Dolby TrueHD


so yes i deliver a meaningful contribution to this discussion, because i at least dont pretend i live in lala land. i base it simply on facts that i can read on forums of people who have bluray or hd-dvd players.

and saying it is still early days, that is true. but the fact is that paramount went all crazy on it and deliver a 2 disc release with everything in 1080p. so yes studios can do it. and i am sure if paramount can do it Warner can do too.

You base your post on facts? so you do have proof that Warner is not giving HD extras because they don't want to instead of not having the extras recorded in HD to begin with? Please share it with us.


that is why it is way to early to finish this format war. let it continue for a year so we can at least see which format delivers in total. because so far and i say it again bluray and hd-dvd havent lived up yet.

Ahhh, another "wait until (fill in the blanks)" argument. How refreshing.

david,

hd-dvd lots of great quality. yes because the masters are great quality. has nothing to with the encodings. many people on this forum still claim that I-robot on D-vhs is the best looking title still in HD which is mpeg-2 encoded.

look at rambo in europe. is VC-1 encoded. but gets low score. VC-1, AVC, mpeg-2 means nothing without a good master.

also the LPCM soundtrack of Black Hawk down is so far the best audio track there is. better then any TRUE-DTs track released on HD-DVD.

Warner is not giving HD extras. how hard can it be for such a big company like warner not to shoot extras in HD while Paramount can. that shouldnt be even a question if warner recorded the extras in hd yes or no. and if i am not mistaken Bryan singer actually mentioned he shot extras in HD.

announched is still further ahead then not announched and so far Fox released all movies on time for bluray.

serious problems are sync problems. audio skipping. havent you followed the HD-DVd form on here? because when i watch a movie i dont like synch problems or audio skipping. and it only seems to happen with TRUE-DTS audio tracks.

and another wait until argument. true. we have to wait to HD-DVd and bluray deliver the complete picture they promised. or are you already satisfied with the job Hd-DVd has done so far? because i aint. not for bluray and not for Hd-DVd. but hey i am maybe somebody who isnt that easily pleased.

also the LPCM soundtrack of Black Hawk down is so far the best audio track there is. better then any TRUE-DTs track released on HD-DVD.
So you have compared all the HD-DVD THD tracks to BR's BHD?

Warner is not giving HD extras. how hard can it be for such a big company like warner not to shoot extras in HD while Paramount can. that shouldnt be even a question if warner recorded the extras in hd yes or no. and if i am not mistaken Bryan singer actually mentioned he shot extras in HD.
Maybe Warner will go SE on this one in six months? if your not happy however then i sugest you stop buying W Bros titles.

serious problems are sync problems. audio skipping. havent you followed the HD-DVd form on here? because when i watch a movie i dont like synch problems or audio skipping. and it only seems to happen with TRUE-DTS audio tracks.
The Samsung BR player is far from flawless and if more than a handfull of people had them you would see just as many threads on player issues.

and another wait until argument. true. we have to wait to HD-DVd and bluray deliver the complete picture they promised. or are you already satisfied with the job Hd-DVd has done so far? because i aint. not for bluray and not for Hd-DVd. but hey i am maybe somebody who isnt that easily pleased.
I think you are easily pleased, did you not buy a PS3? :)

Ha, ha , Blu-ray supporters really are touchy considering 'their' format has lots of CE and studio support.

Meanwhile HD-DVD supporters are happy with their lot and willing to let the market decide.

Let's face it, there wouldn't be such heated debate if Blu-Ray supporters believed the formats CE/studio support was rock solid.

Both formats could live or die by a boardroom decision to drop/add support for either format. All it's takes is a quick look at the balance sheet and pressure from shareholders.

Money talks.

also the LPCM soundtrack of Black Hawk down is so far the best audio track there is. better then any TRUE-DTs track released on HD-DVD.
serious problems are sync problems. audio skipping. havent you followed the HD-DVd form on here? because when i watch a movie i dont like synch problems or audio skipping. and it only seems to happen with TRUE-DTS audio tracks.

You're right, the Blackhawk Down LPCM soundtrack IS better than any TRUE-DTS soundtrack on HD DVD (though Batman Begins' TrueHD soundtrack was rated to be just as good). Because there's NO SUCH THING. You keep talking about this as if it's a sound format and NO ONE KNOWS WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT. So of course there's audio skipping problems, although I'd call having no audio whatsoever on any title ever something worse than a skipping problem. For the record, here are the audio formats supported by HD DVD, Blu-Ray, or both:

Dolby Digital
DTS
Dolby Digital+
DTS-HD
Dolby TrueHD
DTS-HD Master Audio
LPCM

I guess that could happen. If you believe it the tooth fairy or miracles of divine intervention. DVD only sold 233,505 players in Dec. 1998, the 2nd year after it was introduced. That was a whole month. At 200,000 for 13 days that would be a monthly sales rate of 460,000. That would be close to DVD Sep. 1999 @ 501,501 players sold. They will do good to get half of DVDs Dec. 1997 sales of 42,575 ( in other words around 20,000 units tops for the A2.)


I thought I was responding to shipped, not sold. But considering the A1 and AX1 sold out quicker than even Toshiba anticipated (which is why they were sort of caught with their pants down and had to ramp up the second gen development), I would imagine the A2 would have little problem selling to it's potential. The A1 did. The 360 add-on did. It's a pretty good trend.

http://www.hive4media.com/news/html/breaking_article.cfm?article_id=9947

Best Buy Cools on HD Discs


correct link for above post.

http://www.hive4media.com/news/html/breaking_article.cfm?article_id=9947

Best Buy Cools on HD Discs


correct link for above post.


Most people are going to be using PS3 as a gaming system,” said Lucas, who added the launch coupled with Nintendo’s Wii system introduction two days later was almost unprecedented in gaming.

He said some early adopters would test out a Blu-ray movie on the PS3, but it’s not likely large numbers of consumers will flock to establish Blu-ray movie libraries.

Duh. Think about what typically happens in Best Buy. Consumer buys a HDTV and feels the pain in their wallet. Wants HD options and inquires about them. Best Buy rep begins to cram Blu-ray down the consumers throat. The consumer then notices the $499 Toshiba and thinks "that's more like it" the Best Buy drone immediately begins to slam the Toshiba saying it's not 1080p, it's clunky, it's not going to make it. Exasperated...the consumer scraps all plans for HD other than cable at this time.

We've heard it over and over and considering BBs HD DVD pricing is amongst the worst out there I see exactly why they are failing.

Gee, some of you guys are touchy.

The fact of the matter is studio support is still a significant advantage for Blu-ray. Even if that support has been lukewarm with few releases, it is a point that restricts HD DVD sales.

If all the studios or if even one moves to HD DVD that will help to make that format more legitimate. If it boils down to on Sony being exclusive, then the studio support advantage is neutralized for most consumers as they realize Sony has a fininacial stake in their own format. If Universal flips to Blu-ray support, that would be a tough marketing bullet for HD DVD to counter.

But all information point to Universal staying HD DVD and Sony staying Blu-ray for years.

So the only possibility of studio support changing is for more studios to support HD DVD. That obviously would be very important to HD DVD as it would imply that hat studio thought HD DVD sales were going to be significant and they did not want to miss out on the revenues.

Gee, some of you guys are touchy.

The fact of the matter is studio support is still a significant advantage for Blu-ray. Even if that support has been lukewarm with few releases, it is a point that restricts HD DVD sales.

If all the studios or if even one moves to HD DVD that will help to make that format more legitimate. If it boils down to on Sony being exclusive, then the studio support advantage is neutralized for most consumers as they realize Sony has a fininacial stake in their own format. If Universal flips to Blu-ray support, that would be a tough marketing bullet for HD DVD to counter.

But all information point to Universal staying HD DVD and Sony staying Blu-ray for years.

So the only possibility of studio support changing is for more studios to support HD DVD. That obviously would be very important to HD DVD as it would imply that hat studio thought HD DVD sales were going to be significant and they did not want to miss out on the revenues.

There is another reason that everyone is overlooking and it's the fact that Hollywood is expecting to build the future of HD on shiny disc on the back of catalog sales. It's not going to happen. Unless they get out front and center with new HD titles before they are released on DVD, the mass consuming public is going to continue to turn its nose up.

Would people buy HDTVs if all they got to watch on broadcast is HD reruns ??? It just doesn't make sense to give the premium product experience a second class billing...

b2b

serious problems are sync problems. audio skipping. havent you followed the HD-DVd form on here? because when i watch a movie i dont like synch problems or audio skipping. and it only seems to happen with TRUE-DTS audio tracks.


First of all, it's called Dolby TrueHD. For somebody who claims to be sticking to facts you're way off base. :rolleyes:

Secondly, even if there are 1,000 people at AVS having this problem, there are 69,000 more HD-DVD owners that may not have that problem. Myself, my neighbour and my dad being three of them.

Third, I've had more audio skipping / sync problem from SD DVD than HD-DVD (which is so far I've yet to experienced any problem with sync/audio skipping). Maybe the three of us are very lucky that way. :p

There is another reason that everyone is overlooking and it's the fact that Hollywood is expecting to build the future of HD on shiny disc on the back of catalog sales. It's not going to happen. Unless they get out front and center with new HD titles before they are released on DVD the mass consuming public is going to continue to turn its nose up.

Would people buy HDTVs if all they got to watch on broadcast is HD reruns ??? It just doesn't make sense to give the premium product experience a second class billing...

b2bExcept the HD DVD releases of back titles have also been selling well and have been generating great word of mouth among HD DVD owners.

Day and date releases of HD DVD and DVD would be better and better still would be hybrid 30/9 only day and date releases.

As long as HD DVD is releasing more catalog titles than Blu-ray is, that's a advantage fro HD DVD, not the other way around.

First of all, it's called Dolby TrueHD. For somebody who claims to be sticking to facts you're way off base. :rolleyes:

Secondly, even if there are 1,000 people at AVS having this problem, there are 69,000 more HD-DVD owners that may not have that problem. Myself, my neighbour and my dad being three of them.

Third, I've had more audio skipping / sync problem from SD DVD than HD-DVD (which is so far I've yet to experienced any problem with sync/audio skipping). Maybe the three of us are very lucky that way. :pIts funny that Blu-ray supporters that don't even own the HD A1 care and complain more about the magnitude of its alleged audio problems than the majority of satisfied HD DVD owners do. ;)

BTW , there was a dramatic drop in complaints after v 2.0 firmware was released.

Getting Disney and Lionsgate would be enough for me right now. I'm eyeballing the PS3 but I'd need to have at least 5 games that I would be interested in.

We cannot rule out Universal Players as well. In a couple of years they may become the "enthusiasts" choice. I've almost pulled the trigger on the Pioneer DVDA/SACD players a few times. Having a HD DVD/BD/DVDA/SACD player would be droolworthy to me.

It's all just digital data..once you get it off the carrier it's as easy as running it through the appropriate LSI. What Sony and Toshiba are doing is trying to make me give a crap about the carrier. I really only care about the data.

Gee, some of you guys are touchy.

So the only possibility of studio support changing is for more studios to support HD DVD. That obviously would be very important to HD DVD as it would imply that hat studio thought HD DVD sales were going to be significant and they did not want to miss out on the revenues.


Actually, there is the possibility of say a format neutral studio deciding to switch to supporting only one format. It would be a bold move, but a devastating one for the other format. Consider this, Warner and Paramount have been releasing the same titles on both formats. I'm guessing they know which one sells better and by what ratio. At some piont they could say "x is outselling y by 5:1 margin. Lets just focus on X". That would allow them to put all efforts into one format, cut their losses, help that format win, and make more money in the long run.

Here are other possibilities:

1) studios going neutral rather than backing one format
2) studios backing one format instead of staying neutral (above)
3) studios deciding to wait it out after initial poor sales on format of initial choice
4) studios deciding not to wait it out after all and picking one or both formats
5) studios switching teams all together b/c of many possible reasons

Some of these are far-fetched, but everyone here should be able to remember that when money is involved, sometimes drastic measures are taken. The point is there are at least 5 POSSIBILITIES... probably more.

Except the HD DVD releases of back titles have also been selling well and have been generating great word of mouth among HD DVD owners.

Day and date releases of HD DVD and DVD would be better and better still would be hybrid 30/9 only day and date releases.

As long as HD DVD is releasing more catalog titles than Blu-ray is, that's a advantage fro HD DVD, not the other way around.

There you go again... Trying to spin it into some HD-DVD vs BD thing. :rolleyes: No, this isn't a format problem, it's a HD on any kind of disc problem.

Take this example. What if Hollywood decided that IMAX was a really big deal, the logical next step for theater presentation, the future of the industry. How many people would go and spend $12 dollars to see old films in a IMAX theater ??? Now what if all new movies got a one month exclusive jump on regular theaters at the IMAX premium $12 price ???

Think about it...

b2b

Gee B2 you seem to have eaten a lot of sour grapes recently. Just because Blu-ray sales have been below expectations doesn't mean HD DVD sales have been below expectations. Sure both are low compared to DVD sales but thats expected with so few players in the market. Lets give them a little time. There have not been disapointing sales of the HD DVD players or even the PS3 , there weren't enough of them built.

Just because the PS3 may fail at selling HD movies doesn't mean the HD DVD add on for the Xbox 360 will, or vice versa.

Lets see how both of those systems do for selling HD discs as well as the 2nd generation HD DVD players do before we jump off any cliffs shall we? ;)

The difference is the HD DVD release is clearly superior to the previous release and to most other HD. When demonstrated most people can see that. 4:3 IMAX vs HD DVD or cinema 2:35 may not be. Plus there's a limited amount of IMAX facilities. Thats apples and pears.

Just because the PS3 may fail at selling HD movies doesn't mean the HD DVD add on for the Xbox 360 will, or vice versa.

No, I'd say that if Blu-Ray 100% of the PS3 base isn't buying movies, then there's no way that the 5% or so that may eventually buy the HD-DVD drive will buy more

HD DVD is catering to the home theater crowd & movie collectors by having cheaper standalones with more features. Not to mention hybrid discs that allow collectors to have one-disc-for-all-players.

Blu-Ray is catering to the hardcore gaming crowd by unifying Blu-Ray media with gaming.

Which cross-section do you think will end up buying more movies in the end?

HD DVD is catering to the home theater crowd & movie collectors by having cheaper standalones with more features. Not to mention hybrid discs that allow collectors to have one-disc-for-all-players

Collectors don't like flippers, and any price advantage Toshiba has is not going to last that long.

Blu-Ray is catering to the hardcore gaming crowd by unifying Blu-Ray media with gaming.

That's like saying that before they were catering to music lovers by putting games on CDs.
I seriously don't think a lot of people on this forum understand that gamers are the average 35 and under Joe on the street, and not some subset of geekdom.

I seriously don't think a lot of people on this forum understand that gamers are the average 35 and under Joe on the street, and not some subset of geekdom.

Man,you got that right. That remark "average" lends more weight to the fact that they won't beforkingover 1000 bucks for a BD player

Man,you got that right. That remark "average" lends more weight to the fact that they won't beforkingover 1000 bucks for a BD player

But they will fork over for a PS3(eventually)

But they will fork over for a PS3(eventually)

Not at $499/$599 they won't. It will take a decent price drop first.


No, I'd say that if Blu-Ray 100% of the PS3 base isn't buying movies, then there's no way that the 5% or so that may eventually buy the HD-DVD drive will buy more

I would guarantee that. The HD DVD drive is not a game enhancer, it's a movie player. It has a specific purpose. The PS3 is still a game console that HAPPENS to play movies.

I'd put my money on the HD DVD drive having more of an 100% movie purchase base than the PS3.

Gee B2 you seem to have eaten a lot of sour grapes recently. Just because Blu-ray sales have been below expectations doesn't mean HD DVD sales have been below expectations. Sure both are low compared to DVD sales but thats expected with so few players in the market. Lets give them a little time. There have not been disapointing sales of the HD DVD players or even the PS3 , there weren't enough of them built.

Just because the PS3 may fail at selling HD movies doesn't mean the HD DVD add on for the Xbox 360 will, or vice versa.

Lets see how both of those systems do for selling HD discs as well as the 2nd generation HD DVD players do before we jump off any cliffs shall we? ;)

The difference is the HD DVD release is clearly superior to the previous release and to most other HD. When demonstrated most people can see that. 4:3 IMAX vs HD DVD or cinema 2:35 may not be. Plus there's a limited amount of IMAX facilities. Thats apples and pears.

Kost I think you have drank too much of the HD-DVD kool-aid.. ;) If you don't get the general public interested in HD on disc (even $200 for a addon) then what happens is LD all over again.

Just yesterday at a family gathering I brought up the subject of HD discs. There were a few questions, but it was general apathy even with no discussion of HW costing five times as much.

Yes HW for players was constrained for the first few months, but I don't think they would have sold 10-20% more had they built them. There is leftover stock for the A1 even now.

b2b

Kost I think you have drank too much of the HD-DVD kool-aid.. ;) If you don't get the general public interested in HD on disc (even $200 for a addon) then what happens is LD all over again.

Just yesterday at a family gathering I brought up the subject of HD discs. There were a few questions, but it was general apathy even with no discussion of HW costing five times as much.

Yes HW for players was constrained for the first few months, but I don't think they would have sold 10-20% more had they built them. There is leftover stock for the A1 even now.

b2b Well the wine I drank was made of grapes but it was better than purple flavored kool aid. ;)

The HD A1 were sold without advertising support. The HD A2 will have some, although it is bad for their sales that they aren't available until closer to Xmas. This holiday season the HD race is going to be dependent on the consoles.

I also got a ho hum from people about HD shiny discs, with two exceptions. Almost everyone who had a XBox 360, 6 in all , knew about the HD add on, mostly through their kids, and planned to buy one for Xmas.,

Secondly the three people who were looking into buying a new HDTV said they knew about the new HD formats during their initial research and would consider getting a PS3 or HD DVD player to go along with it. None of the people who were going to buy a new HDTV mentioned the Xbox HD add on as an option.

I find the best way to show off HD content is by turning the HD-DVD before my guest(s) walk in. Let them get accustomed with the PQ and only then switch to the same movie but in SD.

Just like life, it's easier to adjust yourself to any kind of upgrade but it more difficult to downgrade.

But they will fork over for a PS3(eventually)

Why do you think the "average" Joe, who does not play games and wants HD movies will see the PS3 as a viable stand alone player???? You are just dreaming or wishing....one of the two.

i wont even think about buying a new player until a clear winner is chosen I got burned by Beta and swore to myself it would never happen again.....and by the grace of god it wont

i wont even think about buying a new player until a clear winner is chosen I got burned by Beta and swore to myself it would never happen again.....and by the grace of god it wont

Good for you....you are a better man than most of us here. But at the same time, I know that if HD DVD fails, I will have enjoyed it to the fullest....then I'll go buy a Blu ray player ;)

Why do you think the "average" Joe, who does not play games and wants HD movies will see the PS3 as a viable stand alone player????

Funny, that is exactly what many of my friends and I are doing. Currently, Playstation 3 consoles are the least expensive Blu-ray players available. They will support BD-Live, BD-Java, and using HDMI 1.3 advanced audio decoders. While I am not a big gamer, I expect to buy several games to entertain gamer friends when they come over. I currently have about 55 Blu-ray discs that I purchased, have about another 50 or so on order.

While as I have noted in other threads, I would not be surprised if neither format wins, I back Blu-ray as I am pretty much guaranteed a player for the foreseeable future (thanks to these consoles). If HD DVD is not successful, it will not take long until there are no players available.

/carmi

Why do you think the "average" Joe, who does not play games and wants HD movies will see the PS3 as a viable stand alone player???? You are just dreaming or wishing....one of the two.

The average Joe who does not play games tends to be 40 and over, and therefore are going to be the last ones to adopt any new technology anyway.

Because that's how a lot of stores, including Best Buy and CC are going to be selling it. "Don't want to spend $799? We can hook you up with a complete media center here for $499. High-def playback, internet, you can play movies you download off of the service or from your own computer, and when the grandkids come over they can play games on it...."

Sony is selling it as a complete home entertainment package, not just as a game system.

geko.

you have not read everything i said. david was saying that lpcm was acient and mpeg-2 was acient so worse then mpeg-4 encodings or truedts . i showed him he was wrong. that is all.

david. again i have not yet got any answer why the second generation HD-DVD player of toshiba is actually worse in specs then the first Hd-DVD player they released?

and as i said before there are hardware problems with either bluray or teh toshiba. again why would toshiba otherwise release a second generation machine so fast! still didnt got any return answer on that.

third. with bluray you know it is gonna stay since sony released the ps3. and bluray even as for games will excist for a longtime to come.

so if i would start collecting movies on high defenition format i would rather do that with bluray since more studio support then with HD-DVd at this moment and because sony also release games on bluray you know at least the format is here to stay.

so if i would right now want to start a movie libary i rather do that on bluray then on hd-dvd because of support.

also today i went into tsutaya ( biggest video shop chain in japan ) to buy kung fu hustle on bluray and it was sold out. how many copies they had i dont know. but i asked at the counter and he said it was sold out.

rdjam. ofcourse everyone will have second generation players at 1 time. but who tought it came that fast? most of the time the second generation comes after 1 year. not after 6 months.Thanks for reinforcing my point. HD DVD development is ahead of the Bluray manufacturers. They would love to be further ahead, as evidenced by Panasonic launching and discontinuing their first-gen player in the same breath, in the space of one week, and announcing their gen-two player coming in MARCH 2007.

also where are the TRUE HD tracks on the movies? so far on bluray we get lots of them, on HD-DVd we dont get that many of them. Oh you mean like the Warner titles that have TruHD on HD DVD, but have to leave them out on Bluray because of a lack of space? How many "TruHD" titles are there on Bluray - have you actually counted? ;)

also i am not dishing about the HD-DVD players at all. (rest of subtle criticisms and FUD concerning HD players - SNIPPED)Yes you are...

that is why it is way to early to finish this format war. let it continue for a year so we can at least see which format delivers in total. because so far and i say it again bluray and hd-dvd havent lived up yet.That's the smartest thing you said here. Let them duke it out ;) And let the studios give equal support so the market can choose their preference.

If you feel that confident that everyone knows how much better bluray is, you shouldn't mind, right? ;)

david. again i have not yet got any answer why the second generation HD-DVD player of toshiba is actually worse in specs then the first Hd-DVD player they released?


Because the PS3 is out, equalling the A1 in SRP. The A1 was subsidized (like the PS3) to artificially lower the price, and they need to be making money on these decks now. That means on top of parts getting cheaper, they need to pull stuff out to save money

Because the PS3 is out, equalling the A1 in SRP. The A1 was subsidized (like the PS3) to artificially lower the price, and they need to be making money on these decks now. That means on top of parts getting cheaper, they need to pull stuff out to save money

...which is why the 2nd gen Toshiba is the same price as the first subsidized player but they cut features like the analog audio outs. Toshiba subsidizing their players is going to doom HD-DVD in the long term. No wonder no other manufacturers want to hop on board and make HD-DVD standalones. And right now Toshiba isn't even shipping ANY standalone players to retailers... during the holiday buying season. Ouch!

...which is why the 2nd gen Toshiba is the same price as the first subsidized player but they cut features like the analog audio outs. Toshiba subsidizing their players is going to doom HD-DVD in the long term. No wonder no other manufacturers want to hop on board and make HD-DVD standalones. And right now Toshiba isn't even shipping ANY standalone players to retailers... during the holiday buying season. Ouch!

There was little proof of subsidation other than iSuppli BoM breakdowns are are best guess only. The A2 uses Core Duo chips I believe which are likely more expensive than the P4 2.4Ghz chips used before. I don't view cutting analog outs as that much of a cost cutting measure. 2007 should be the yeah that HDMI AVR become a mainstay

We're in the biggest buying rush of the year. In order to have sufficient product quantities companies had to plan at least 6 months ahead which would have put their planning at the HD DVD launch phase. Retail is a delayed business. The success that HD DVD has engendered today will not manifest itself until next year. Some of you guys act like a CE vendor can go from concept to delivery in a few months. That's not how it works even if you're just rebadging.

The A2 is going to be profitable. If HP can offer HD DVD ROM drives as $99 upgrades in their multimedia destop line then quantity and pricing on these drives looks to be fairly solid.

I find it interesting that some people are expecting Disney and/or Lionsgate to go neutral at CES. I think that is very unlikely.
BuGsArEtAsTy: the same people were expecting it this year, CEDIA, when BD came out, when HD DVD came out....

I don't view cutting analog outs as that much of a cost cutting measure.
I do.

2007 should be the yeah that HDMI AVR become a mainstay
Perhaps, but few people are going to rush out and buy a brand new high end receiver, especially since many (like me) have ones with 5.1 analogue inputs. I'm certainly not buying a new receiver before 2008 anyway.

The A2 is going to be profitable.
I suspect you are right.

...I don't view cutting analog outs as that much of a cost cutting measure...
Sorry, I beg to differ. Removing 12 integrated circuits (six 24/192 DACS and six op amp followers) makes a major cost difference as any EE with manufacturing experience would tell you. I would bet that Toshiba is now making a small profit on the HD-A2's because of that change and others (drive cost).

Bob

I don't view cutting analog outs as that much of a cost cutting measure.

neither do I but it does point out

1) they are willing to screw customers since there are not many HDMI receivers out there
2) they want to force people to the 1000$ player
3) they need to cut every manufacturing penny because these players are bleeding them so much

so is it a big cost cutting measure? No, a big bad sign? yes

neither do I but it does point out

1) they are willing to screw customers since there are not many HDMI receivers out there
2) they want to force people to the 1000$ player
3) they need to cut every manufacturing penny because these players are bleeding them so much

so is it a big cost cutting measure? No, a big bad sign? yesDoesn't all this apply to the PS3 also?

--Darin

what's the difference between that and Panasonic DVD-A100 vs DVD-A300 during DVD launch in March 2007? Lower end model, half price of the higher end, doesn't have 5.1 output of the higher end model.

Does PS3 have 5.1 analog output?

so in order NOT to screw people all the Stand-alone Bd players (Panasonic, Samsung, Sony/Pioneer-IF they every come out) ONLY offer the $1000 versions?

Ummm, at least HD-DVD offers a half-price version. The majority of people are NOT HT enthusiasts. They have a TV and hook up the player. Meaning they have an HDTV and use the TVs speakers. So the $500 players doesn't screw anyone, it adds an option. You can watch HD-DVDs and USE the STEREO OUTS. These people don't even know what HDMI is.

PLUS HD-DVD rewarded early adopters on the 1st gen players. The $500 is a tank with the analog outs.

I didn't see BD doing either of the above. Just offering $1000 players. Take it or leave it. SCREW you if you want a cheaper version b/c you don't have a home theater. Unless you count the $1000 players as the "cheap" version. Some are $1200 and $1500 aren't they?

Oh yeah, and PS3 doesn't count...it is the equivalent of the HD-DVD add-on. I'm talking stand-alone players ONLY.

Come on be realistic. You are saying b/c there is a MORE affordable option TOSH is somehow screwing the consumer...give me a break. You truly are drinking the BD cool-aid.

Just a point I wanted to make. I consider myself more a Joe Six Pack than a AV enthusiest. I have a small Sony Home theater-in-a-box and it suits me just fine. I have a 44" HDTV and HD cables service and an upconverting DVD player. For me, and I suspect many people, component video and digital coax/optical audio is all I will ever need or want. All of these newer connectors and audio formats will fall mostly on deaf ears. People want devices that connect easily and simply to their systems.

Doesn't all this apply to the PS3 also?


PS3 and X360 make about $10 PER UNIT in royalties for the games. HD and Blu-Ray if it's anything like DVD you're talking at best a quarter per disc going to the format creator. That's why the game system loss leader model works. That on top of the big microtransaction business that Microsoft has going, and Sony probably will have going, will ensure profit over the long haul.

Ummm, at least HD-DVD offers a half-price version

So does BR, PS3

Oh yeah, and PS3 doesn't count...it is the equivalent of the HD-DVD add-on. I'm talking stand-alone players ONLY.

It is a standalone player. It requires no additional hardware to function as a BR player. By your logic, when they start doing the BD-Java games, all decks that support that willbe DQ'd as well.

nice job of butchering my entire post and not acknowledging the points. OK if you want to keep throwing ps3 out there then I'll throw out Xbox360+add-on. Same price, they cancel each other out. GAMING SYSTEMS.

So again, my point is that HD-DVD players have 2 price points whereas BD only has one. You can twist the facts all you want, but BD is NOT providing a player for the masses...you know, the ones that buy everything and will actually decide the winner of the format war? They are only making players for HT guys, not Joe6pack.

Just look at DVD players as an example. Everybody has at least one. How many of them are actually hooked up via HDMI/DVI and using 5.1 systems. NOT the majority. I have 3 tvs and a home theater projector. Only one of those setups is more than stereo. Like I said before, the vast majority will buy a player and hook it up to a tv, that's it. The lower price player is for them AND will help mass adoption. And FYI it also has a digital audio out...so you CAN get 5.1 sound, just not the new audio codecs...which AGAIN, the masses don't care about.

You just can't argue against that. If you think the majority of people are going to buy a $1000 player just to hook up to a tv you are delusional. If you think the majority of people are going to buy a PS3 to watch movies you are mistaken.

Today, when people go shopping for a DVD player do they look at PS2...No. And it is now selling for cheaper than a good quality DVD player.

Tosh is doing a great job. An entry player for the masses and a top-of-the-line player for HT guys that demand more. Let me know when BD decides to do the same.

Maybe i am missing the point here but why is 5.1 analog so important?

I figure there are 4 groups of people:
A) Low End
Hooks player to TV (no receiver). Today they use component & stereo out in future more will use the simply "one cable" HDMI.

B) Low End w/ Receiver
J6P type. Has a receiver but is no AV nut. He likes it because it's surround sound. He hook player to the TV by component or HDMI and player to his receiver by digital audio. Try to explain to him that digital audio is lower quality but only for certain titles that have TrueHD than an analog connection and you have lost him. Likely his receiver and speakers were a boxed set and cost less than $300 anyways. Also i saw a $300 HDMI receiver so HDMI is making it's way into the low end also (slowly).

C) High End w/o HDMI
Like some of the people on this board. They have a very nice system but it doesn't have HDMI. They seem to think what affects them affects the whole world and Toshiba will lose because they don't get their "business". I wonder how many of them would buy a HD-DVD player even if it did have all the options they say are missing.

D) High End w/ HDMI
Either has a high end system or is planning to go HDMI soon. Maybe they need an excuse to convince the wife. More people going this route because receiver allows simplified cabling and one box switching as more HDMI devices become common.

So I figure group A + B make up most people. So lets say 35% A, and 50% B. That leaves another 10% for C and 5% for D

So
Group A has no use for 5.1 sound at all.
Group B uses 5.1 sound but digital out is fine for them
Group C is affected. How much really depends on listener, setup, etc.
Group D would likely use HDMI for the all HDMI setup anyways.

So dropping analog out affects what maybe 10% of the buying public. I think that is generous because more likely group C is something like 3%-5% of the public.

Also Group C has some options. They can buy the higher end player (same price as BD players). They could buy lower end player and put the $500 - $700 saved towards an HDMI receiver.

If u think consumers are getting "screwed" now. Just wait 5 years. Analog is going to get downgraded and then cut off its only a matter of time. In 2010 do u think HD-DVD players will even have an analog port? By that point virtually all HDTV will have support for HDCP. Most computer monitors will support it also. I figure by 2010 the line between computer monitor and HDTV will be pretty grey. Your $99 HD-DVD player may only have an HDMI port, and maybe a digital out (for legacy receivers).

HDMI will become the one connection standard. Like it or not. It wont happen tomorrow but it will happen. Speaking of that. I wonder what the cost savings would be to dump the entire digital to analog subsystem (both video and audio)?

I think the key point here is that the studios are recogniZing that the format confusion is hurting overall sales.

More importantly, the Bluray-exclusive studios are seeing Warner, Paramount and Universal doing sales hand over fist and realize that they are missing not only sales volumne, but potentially participation in the growth of what is starting to look like the format of choice for consumers.

It's pretty safe to say that Bluray studios are likely losing money on every release. They'll lose less money by releasing to HD DVD also, and getting extra sales.
and if hd keeps up this pace bd studios will go the other way,they have to,and another thing doesnt these studios that support bd concerned about the crappy pq or is it just the bucks

and if hd keeps up this pace bd studios will go the other way,they have to,and another thing doesnt these studios that support bd concerned about the crappy pq or is it just the bucks

Will the fanboy opinion that thinks BD PQ is bad please stop. The PQ is amazing and has been for the last few months. You guys are so hung up on what happened with there first few releases 6 months ago. Let it go. Think objectively and watch some BD discs. You will see what all BD owners are seeing.

and if hd keeps up this pace bd studios will go the other way,they have to,and another thing doesnt these studios that support bd concerned about the crappy pq or is it just the bucks

What crappy pq? I keep hearing this, but haven't see any abundance of crappy picture quality on either format.