This is going to be a personal comparison of video processors for the sole purpose of playing video games. Some people do all sorts of things on their HDTV--watch TV, watch movies, play games, even browse the Internet. However, my HDTV usage looks a bit more like this:

90% Video Games
10% DVDs and AVI files

This evaluation is ONLY for the purpose of video games. If you want to know how a video processor performs on TV, movies, or anything that isn't video games, this is not a thread for you.

--

Thanks to Guitar Hero II (see this thread for more details (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=746694)), I was able to devise an accurate test of various video scaling products on my Westinghouse LVM-37w3 HDTV. This HDTV is 1080p native, and there was definitely a noticeable lag when running 480i material through the set. Well, just how much was it lagging, and how much do those fancy video processors help?

Today, I'll be able to show you all some numbers. These numbers may vary from HDTV to HDTV, but I think it's pretty obvious now that an external video scaler undeniably improves the response time greatly for gaming on an HDTV.

I did each test several times, and recorded the "most rounded" response time (my timing was typically off by 4 or 5ms for each round, so you should give these numbers a -5 or +5 margin of error).


Test Results

Test 1: PS2 @ 480i with Component cables, directly connected to HDTV
Average Result: 45ms; ~3.5 frames


Test 2: PS2 @ 480p with Component cables, directly connected to HDTV
Average Result: 30ms; ~1.9 frames


Test 3: PS2 @ 480i / 480p with Component cables, connected to XRGB-3. XRGB-3 connected to VGA IN port on HDTV. XRGB-3 in B1 "Line Doubler" mode (functions exactly like XRGB-2+ in this mode).
Average Result: 18ms; ~1.2 frames. I tested both 480i and 480p and could not find a noticeable difference. My tests varied from 13ms to 22ms regardless of whether or not Progressive Scan was enabled. That means the XRGB is FAST!


Test 4: PS2 @ 480i/480p with Component cables, connected to XRGB-3. XRGB-3 connected to DVI IN port on HDTV. XRGB-3 in B0 "Normal Operation" mode (tested outputting at 1024x768, 1280x1024, 1600x1200).
Average Result: 74ms; ~4.5 frames @ 480i, 50ms; ~3 frames @ 480p. Just as suspected, the XRGB-3's "normal" operation mode has a pretty bad delay. Basically, while it does make the image look nice and clean, it puts us back to square one with more delay than we had sending our signal directly to the HDTV.


Test 5: PS2 @ 480i/480p with Component cables, connected to iScan VP50. iScan VP50 connected to HDMI IN port on HDTV. iScan VP50 in "Game Mode 1" (outputting at 480p, 720p, or 1080p).
Average Result:
25ms; ~1.4 frames @ 480i
and the shocker . . . 75ms; ~4.6 frames @ 480p! :eek:


Summary:

XRGB-2+: Upscans 480i to 480p with amazing response time. 480p input is unsupported. Image quality is shaky in exchange for the lightning-fast upscan.

Grade: A-


XRGB-3: Upscans 480i to 480p and passes through 480p, 720p, and 1080i signals with amazing response time. Image quality is shaky in exchange for the lightning-fast upscan.

Grade: A


iScan VP50: Upscans 480i to 480p with excellent response time; perhaps equal in speed to the XRGB-2+/XRGB-3. Image quality is smoother than the XRGB-2+/XRGB-3. Perfect pixel match and aspect ratio with zero overscan. However, 480p material lags WORSE than if I plug in a game console directly to the TV. What does this mean for my 720p/1080i video game sources?

Grade: C+


iScanVP20/30 + ABT102d: Upscans 480i to 480p with identical quality to the VP50 (less than half a frame in Game Mode 1). 480p, 720p, and 1080i/1080p can all be scaled to 1080p with under half a frame of lag. If you're purchasing a scaler for video games, this is what you want.

Grade: A+


Conclusion:

While small, the built-in delay to my HDTV on non-HD material is unacceptable out of the box. The iScan VP20/VP30 + ABT102d is the best option hands-down for eliminating input delay, with the $200-$300 MSRP XRGB-2+/XRGB-3 at a close second. The $3000 MSRP iScan VP50 comes in at a distant third due to its current issues with progressive sources. Unless DVDO cleans up the code for handling Progressive sources, you're much better keeping your wallet fat and purchasing an iScan VP20/VP30 or XRGB-3 for your HDTV Gaming video processing needs.

Test 5: PS2 @ 480i/480p with Component cables, connected to iScan VP50. iScan VP50 connected to HDMI IN port on HDTV. iScan VP50 in "Game Mode 1" (outputting at 480p, 720p, or 1080p).
Average Result:
25ms; ~1.4 frames @ 480i
and the shocker . . . 75ms; ~4.6 frames @ 480p! The 1.4 frame delay number for 480i via the VP50's game mode 1 looks about 1 frame too high. There are 2 possible explanations for this that I can think of: 1) the HDMI input on the HDTV has a 1 frame delay, and 2) you're running the VP50 in unlocked mode so that it introduces a greater delay than it would in the 60 Hz locked mode. If you're not doing #2, do you have any way of measuring the TV's delay with a 480p signal over HDMI?

The 480p result is likely caused by the VP50 doing cadence detection on the 480p input signal. This introduces an additional 3 frame delay. There really should be an option to tell the VP50 not to do this at the user's discretion, but it's not currently in the VP50 software. You should contact DVDO and let them know this delay is unacceptable and that you need an option to turn of cadence detection for progressive sources.

iScan VP20/30/50: Upscans 480i to 480p with great response time. Image quality is smoother than the XRGB-2+/XRGB-3. Perfect pixel match and aspect ratio with zero overscan. However, 480p material lags WORSE than if I plug in a game console directly to the TV. What does this mean for my 720p/1080i video game sources? You'll probably see a delay for 720p which is similar to that for 480p. Again, there needs to be a user option added to turn off cadence detection for progressive sources. Contact DVDO and bitch about this, as that's likely the only way it will happen. For 1080i inputs you should see a delay similar to that for 480i, assuming you also choose game mode 1 deinterlacing option.

- Dale Adams

The 1.4 frame delay number for 480i via the VP50's game mode 1 looks about 1 frame too high. There are 2 possible explanations for this that I can think of: 1) the HDMI input on the HDTV has a 1 frame delay, and 2) you're running the VP50 in unlocked mode so that it introduces a greater delay than it would in the 60 Hz locked mode. If you're not doing #2, do you have any way of measuring the TV's delay with a 480p signal over HDMI?

The 480p result is likely caused by the VP50 doing cadence detection on the 480p input signal. This introduces an additional 3 frame delay. There really should be an option to tell the VP50 not to do this at the user's discretion, but it's not currently in the VP50 software. You should contact DVDO and let them know this delay is unacceptable and that you need an option to turn of cadence detection for progressive sources.

You'll probably see a delay for 720p which is similar to that for 480p. Again, there needs to be a user option added to turn off cadence detection for progressive sources. Contact DVDO and bitch about this, as that's likely the only way it will happen. For 1080i inputs you should see a delay similar to that for 480i, assuming you also choose game mode 1 deinterlacing option.

- Dale Adams
Thank you for a very helpful response! I did complete the test with 60hz in LOCKED mode, so I am putting the fault either on myself for the test (I wouldn't doubt my Guitar Hero timing to be 1 frame off--executing things in a 1 frame window is difficult even for seasoned fighting gamers where some combos require a 1-frame input window) or the HDMI input of my Westinghouse introducing an unwelcome frame of lag.

I did however just test Street Fighter 3: 3rd Strike @ 480i (a game which I feel comfortable within a 1-frame window) and the VP50 truly does an excellent job of deinterlacing. The response time actually feels like I'm playing it on an SDTV and there are no artifacts during the flashy animations which run-of-the-mill scalers cannot typically handle. I do not doubt that "Game Mode 1" does its processing in under 1 frame; if anything is causing an additional delay, it would have to be the HDTV itself. As I said, 1 frame is difficult to feel but it can and does affect timing in games like this.


Thank you for explaining the way 480p/720p are handled on the VP50; as a gamer this is simply unacceptable so I will kindly request to DVDO that Cadence Detection be an "on/off" option for Progressive sources.

You mean my Vantage HD may be leading to me getting fragged on XBox Live???

DOH!!!!!!

Wow.

Funnily enough I was doing some testing on games tonight (nothing quite so scientific)

I was playing Frequency at 576i over s-video (via an amp too) and Rez @ 480i and I thought Game Mode 2 was ok (and gave more stable text in menus etc), but Game Mode 1 was certainly more accurate.

I'm amazed by Dale's revelation about progscan sources always having cadence detection performed on them. I'd have thought the exact opposite, although I can see where it might be slightly useful to convert 1080p/60 to 1080p/24. I guess I'll be switching my xbox360 over to 1080i although I must admit it always felt pretty responsive at 720p. But then, I never could manage a Yoga Teleport in SF2 ;)


and thanks for the detailed research Fubar.

Got word today from ABT that they are now aware of the lag issues with Progressive gaming sources. A future firmware update should have an option to turn off Cadence Detection, allowing for sub-1 frame response times just like Game Mode 1 can already accomplish with interlaced sources.

Once the update is available, I'll update my numbers as well as my comparison! Stay tuned.

Big thanks to Dale Adams for the words of wisdom, and for the fastest/best deinterlacing algorithm I've ever seen.

Got word today from ABT that they are now aware of the lag issues with Progressive gaming sources. The next firmware update should have an option to turn off Cadence Detection, allowing for sub-1 frame response times just like Game Mode 1 can already accomplish with interlaced sources.Too bad they didn't just listen to me a few months ago when I told them they needed to put this option in for gaming purposes. My recommendation at that time was not to turn on cadence detection for progressive inputs unless the user specifically enabled it.

Oh well - at least they are finally getting around to making this a user option. Please keep us updated on your findings when the update becomes available.

- Dale Adams

Too bad they didn't just listen to me a few months ago when I told them they needed to put this option in for gaming purposes. My recommendation at that time was not to turn on cadence detection for progressive inputs unless the user specifically enabled it.

Oh well - at least they are finally getting around to making this a user option. Please keep us updated on your findings when the update becomes available.

- Dale Adams

What does AUTO Mode do when playing games? I have been outputing 1080i from my 360 and using the game deinterlacing modes, but now I have a HD DVD add-on which needs to use a different deinterlacing mode (using AUTO for that). Thanks. SJ

What does AUTO Mode do when playing games?Auto deinterlacing mode doesn't do anything different for games than it does for other video sources. If the deinterlacer detects that the video was originally from a progressive source (e.g., film with 3:2 pulldown) it will reconstruct the original source frames, otherwise it applies motion-adaptive deinterlacing. Both of these modes have a constant 3 frame period delay for the deinterlacing process. If you want a lesser delay you have to manually invoke one of the game modes.

- Dale Adams

Too bad they didn't just listen to me a few months ago when I told them they needed to put this option in for gaming purposes. My recommendation at that time was not to turn on cadence detection for progressive inputs unless the user specifically enabled it.

Oh well - at least they are finally getting around to making this a user option. Please keep us updated on your findings when the update becomes available.

- Dale Adams

Another question RE: the iScan VP20/VP30 w/ABT102D. Do these combinations also have the same problem with forced cadence detection/input delay with Progressive sources? I know these units can't do the fast 1080i deinterlacing, but that's actually not as important as a fast 480p/720p upscale since I can count the number of 1080i games on my hand.

Basically, I'd like to be able to recommend these units to friends who are just now getting to the HD era and have the same expectations with latency as myself, but unfortunately I can't recommend them if they also can't even handle a progressive source.

Another question RE: the iScan VP20/VP30 w/ABT102D. Do these combinations also have the same problem with forced cadence detection/input delay with Progressive sources? I know these units can't do the fast 1080i deinterlacing, but that's actually not as important as a fast 480p/720p upscale since I can count the number of 1080i games on my hand.The VP20/30 do not perform cadence detection on progressive sources at all, so they won't show the problem you're seeing with the current software release on the VP50. The processing delay with a progressive or 1080i source should be less than half a frame period.

- Dale Adams

Wow.


I was playing Frequency at 576i over s-video (via an amp too) and Rez @ 480i and I thought Game Mode 2 was ok (and gave more stable text in menus etc), but Game Mode 1 was certainly more accurate.



Wow - a man after my own heart - I thought I was the only person on earth who played Rez - for sure I'm the only guy in my metro area who knows what it is.

Here I thought I was just getting old and slow :p Now I have an excuse.

:)

There's quite a big Rez fanbase in the somewhat elitest EDGE magazine readership in the UK :)

Wasn't it made by Mizugichi? ... same guy who designed Lumines I think?

Cool - I'd heard that it was big on your side of the pond. Will have to check it out. Ta.

Sorry to bring this rather old topic back up on top.

I wonder if the bug on the VP50 which caused a severe delay when feeding 480p material has been fixed in the meantime ??

Tobias

Sorry to bring this rather old topic back up on top.

I wonder if the bug on the VP50 which caused a severe delay when feeding 480p material has been fixed in the meantime ??

Tobias

Still hasn't been fixed. It isn't just 480p either; it's all progressive sources, so 480p/720p/1080p are all affected. I have been feeding 480i/1080i only to my VP50 as a temporary workaround.

In my latest communication with DVDO, they informed me that they were unable to comment about the status of a fix until it has been released. I'm still considering purchasing a VP30 and getting rid of the VP50 (especially if they ever get around to supporting 1080p passthrough on the VP30, which has also been promised).

Thanks for the update !

As far as I can tell the scaling quality (when feeding 720p) should be the same with the VP20/30 as with the VP50. On the other hand 1080i fed into the VP20/30 will look much worse than on a VP50 with just fieldscaling performed instead proper deinterlacing...

What a shame that DVDO can't give a more satisfying status update...

Connection wise, how are you connecting the Xbox 360 to the VP30 + ABT102d?

I connected my 360 to the Vp30 + ABT102d and I noticed through the 'Display Info' tab it was detecting a 1080i input source which then greys out the 'Deinterlacing' menu of the VP30. So basically, how do I create a 480i source so I can choose which 'Game Mode' would be suitable for my gaming needs? I did contact DVDO via phone and the gentleman told me it is all done 'automatically.' But I am concerned that the deinterlacer is not being put to use and that all that is basically happening is the VP30 is just scaling.

The VP30 ist not a HD-deinterlacer. If you're feeding 1080i to the VP30 it takes it as a 1920x540p60 signal and upscales each field to your output resolution.

Best thing would be to feed 720p instead of 1080i.

I connected my 360 to the Vp30 + ABT102d and I noticed through the 'Display Info' tab it was detecting a 1080i input source which then greys out the 'Deinterlacing' menu of the VP30. So basically, how do I create a 480i source so I can choose which 'Game Mode' would be suitable for my gaming needs?

VP30 + ABT102d only performs Game Mode deinterlacing on 480i sources. 480p, 720p, and 1080i on the VP30 are all lag-free already using normal scaling, so there is no need for a Game Mode on these sources.

If you want HD Deinterlacing, you need a VP50, but why not just output 720p with your X-Box 360 instead?

I will be thrilled if DVDO ever fixes the dumb progressive cadence issue. I would still use an XRGB-2 (not an XRGB-3) for deinterlacing old consoles, though, since it handles old 240p video better than anything else I've found. Not only does it get the basics right and display it correctly (which no current DVDO product does), but it has an option that I like to simulate the CRT scanlines that are traditionally quite visible in 240p material. Its deinterlacing of 480i sources is as good for games as DVDO's is in game mode, so I don't lose anything by running all my non-HD consoles through the XRGB-2 first*.

Newer consoles get their outputs split and go both directly to the VP50 and also through the XRGB-2 for rare times when I play a compilation or Virtual Console game that outputs 240p from a machine that would otherwise be running 480p or better. I just have to select different inputs on the VP50 to get the different versions of the same source.

[* Or at least I wouldn't if the VP50 didn't delay all progressive sources, which includes the output of an XRGB-2. So now all my games are delayed if I use the VP50, not only the natively progressive ones. I just can't win.]

@sidb: Can you give me a little inside look on what you mean by saying: 240p -> which no current DVDO product does ??

I've had XRGB-2 for years hooked up to a 30" CRT VGA tube. The XRGB-2 has two problems though: (1) the vertical sync is a bit shaky which is ok (in parts) on a CRT, but get's very annoying in a LCD or plasma display and (2) It handles all incoming signals as 240p (= it discards the 2nd field and doubles the first one). This gives a rock-solid picture on true 240p sources (SNES, PS1), but you're loosing half the vertical resolution on "real" 480i games. 480i PS2 Games for example look crisp but a bit blocky due to the reduced resolution.

Currently I'm using a Crystalio which is Faroudja FLI-2300 based and it does a wonderful job on deinterlacing videogames (though the usual delay). 240 sources likes SNES are handled very solidly, you gain visible resolution on 240p but you loose the ultra-sharp definition of single pixels. On 480i sources thought the quality of the Crystalio is much better than the XRGB-2. You get a real 480p picture.

With fast moving 480i games you get combing effects from time to time but nowhere as bad as on the XRGB-3 for example.

I'm currently looking for either a DVDO VP20/30/50, but I'll look into the Gefen HD Mate first, as it was stated by a Gefen support member that the delay would only be 1 frame with videogames as well and if it does a clean job with 240p games it might be an alternative to the XRGB2/3.

Thanks for the clarification guys!

@sidb: Can you give me a little inside look on what you mean by saying: 240p -> which no current DVDO product does ??My VP50 just interprets 240p as 480i. That means it tries to deinterlace it, even though it was never interlaced to begin with. It thinks the even fields should be shifted vertically like they would be in 480i, and that causes combing with horizontal motion. In iScan's game mode 2, which combines the even and odd fields (even though they are actually separate complete frames), you get rounded edges on anything stationary and flickering edges on things moving horizontally. I can't remember, but it may also mess up the framerate since it doesn't know that 240p is inherently a 60fps source. If DVDO actually cares about supporting games, it needs to detect and properly support 240p as a 60 fps, progressive source (right after they fix the other bug where all progressive sources are delayed).

I must have misremembered how the XRGB-2 handled 480i. I thought it did it right. But, come to think of it, all my 480i-capable sources (including the PS2) are also plugged into the VP50 directly because they also produce 480p or better, which the XRGB-2 can't handle at all. I only use the XRGB-2 for 240p sources.

The manual of one of the older iScans, (the iScan Pro maybe) mentions a processing mode that sounds like 240p, but the hardware's best video input is S-Video, which won't cut it. All my consoles do RGB or component.

I'm glad to know that the Crystalio does 240p correctly. If DVDO doesn't get their problems worked out sometime before Ragnarok, I may get a CII. But if it doesn't do scanline emulation, I will still keep the XRGB-2. I just love the resulting beautiful crispness without actual sharp edges that I grew up with on CRTs. The XRGB-2 does has a very slightly wobbly sync, but it takes RGBs 240p and turns it into 480p with scanlines, and I have never encountered any other product that does.

If DVDO doesn't get their problems worked out sometime before Ragnarok, I may get a CII.
speaking of it. We just have a videogame related over in the PMS support board. The Gennum VXP can't handle 240p at all. This means the Optoma HD3000 cannot be used with 240p sources (e.g. PS1 games on a PS2) and the CII has to be switched to Faroudja processing.

and I have never encountered any other product that does.
which is a shame since I guess it would be no problem at all for DVDO, PMS and all the others to include such a processing mode...

which is a shame since I guess it would be no problem at all for DVDO, PMS and all the others to include such a processing mode...I certainly hope companies realize that there is another video mode they've overlooked. But unless we get lucky and one of their managers is a retro gaming fan, I doubt they'll ever bother to implement scanline emulation, even though it's really pretty simple to do. Every decent computer emulator does it. The XRGB-2 and 2+ do it (although the XRGB-3 reportedly does not), and DScaler does it for the HTPC crowd. I figure that if I need to, I can just continue to keep my XRGB-2+ around and feed its 480p output into my VP for integration into my setup and scaling to my display's native resolution.

I recently borrowed GHII from a friend to check out a few different processing methods, but found that I was not able to do the timing check without a guitar controller attached (which I didn't bring along) - did I miss something or can the test really not be done with the controller attached ?

I recently noticed that the PS3 does a rather quick progressive conversion for PS1 and PS2 games. I'm playing lots of shoot'em up game and when moving from my PS2->Crystalio setup to a PS3 (just for testing purposes) I noticed that my PS2 games were much more responsive than before. Anyone with the same experiences ?

Fudoh

I recently borrowed GHII from a friend to check out a few different processing methods, but found that I was not able to do the timing check without a guitar controller attached (which I didn't bring along) - did I miss something or can the test really not be done with the controller attached ?
Works fine with the controller. Just use up/down on the d-pad to strum, and use X/O to get through the menus.

I recently noticed that the PS3 does a rather quick progressive conversion for PS1 and PS2 games. I'm playing lots of shoot'em up game and when moving from my PS2->Crystalio setup to a PS3 (just for testing purposes) I noticed that my PS2 games were much more responsive than before. Anyone with the same experiences ?

Fudoh
Actually, the PS3's progressive conversion on PS2 games is rather mediocre; it's a 2-frame lag which is about as bad as most HDTV conversions. 1/2 frame is really the upper limit for games that truly need quick response times.

Since I just made these photos for myself, I thought I might as well post them in this thread. It's a comparison of image quality at 240p, not lag, but it still seemed relevant.

These are digital photos of an actual Super Nintendo's RGB output being displayed on my LCD. The Samus on the left is being routed through an XRGB-2+ with scanline emulation at setting 2 (my favorite: a medium amount of darkness in the scanlines) and then as VGA (the resolution, not the cable) into the VP50. Middle Samus is going directly into the VP50 set to Game Mode 2 deinterlacing, which looks the sharpest with 240p still scenes, although it looks terrible with 240p in motion. The Samus on the right is also directly through the VP50, but this time with Game Mode 1 deinterlacing, which isn't all jaggy when things move and isn't some averaged color when things blink at 60fps (which happens more than you think, for example, when you take damage in many games), but is all blurry. Actually, it is a little worse than just blurring; it's algorithmic "enhancement" that was intended for a 480i image with twice the resolution. Look how weird it makes the top line of the shoulderpads, for example.

http://homepage.mac.com/sidb/images/samus_lcd.jpg

Check here (http://homepage.mac.com/sidb/images/samus_big.jpg) for a less cropped version of left and middle. For comparison, here is an old computer screenshot I've used before in which both Samuses are emulated, with simulated scanlines enabled on the left.

http://homepage.mac.com/sidb/images/samus.gif

I have two observations. First, it looks better on the real hardware. Second, I prefer the scanlines, although it's ultimately a matter of taste. But even if I didn't, I'd use the XRGB with scanline emulation turned off instead of feeding video straight to the VP50 because the VP50 has to be on Game Mode 1 to make 240p video in motion at all watchable, but I can't stand all the blurring. The XRGB by itself has the same lag as the VP50 set to its inferior-quality Game Mode 1, BTW. That's what proper understanding of 240p video will get you. (Running the XRGB's output through the VP50 currently adds another 56ms, but that's a bug in the VP50, as discussed previously. If DVDO ever fixes it, the VP50 will add practically no extra lag to the XRGB.)

The "progressive cadence detection" must be why my Nintendo Wii skills sometimes appear lacking, the reason I can't hit baseball in Wii Sports is all down to the 480p/576p output via VP50! :)

Plenty of Xbox 360 and PS3 gamers output as 720p, these must get similar lag ... which is definately responsible for Xbox Live game losses. ;)

"Progressive cadence detection" works great at what it's there for, but not for games consoles.

I hope that VP50 gains menu option to disable it soon.

StooMonster

The "progressive cadence detection" must be why my Nintendo Wii skills sometimes appear lacking, the reason I can't hit baseball in Wii Sports is all down to the 480p/576p output via VP50! :)I change the Wii's resolution based on the game. Twilight Princess is a 480p title because split second timing doesn't matter, and the game is beautiful. Wii Sports is definitely a 480i title, though. Three frames of lag can make all the difference on where a speeding tennis ball goes -- left, right, or missed entirely. Games like Smash Brothers are more frustrating. In that case, the 480p visuals look much sharper, especially so I can see what's going on when the map is zoomed way out in a four-player match, but reaction time is also critical.

More relevant to this thread, fast reaction 240p games (for example, Street Fighter II or even Mario) that I would normally route through my XRGB for 240p "decoding" and then the VP50 for scaling, I currently have to send directly to the VP50 on Game Mode 1 deinterlacing because the XRGB outputs progressive scan, which gets delayed. So I lose the correct interpretation of 240p video and I lose my precious scanlines. And I lose the VP50 as a central automatic hub for everything so I don't have to press buttons and change settings all the time.

Of course, the very best solution would be for the VP50 (or another VP; build it and I'll switch) to

Have an off switch for progressive cadence detection,
Correctly interpret 240p video so the VP knows it's already 60fps progressive and doesn't perform an unnecessary and harmful deinterlacing, and
(Bonus points) offer scanline emulation for 240p sources, since that's the look the original artists designed for (out of necessity, but still). It's a simple filter -- just copy the odd scanlines to the even ones and darken them. See pics in previous post.


An aside to anyone at DVDO, if they're reading: 240p video isn't going away. Older games are only becoming more popular as console makers offer them for download on modern hardware. And when my Wii plays a classic game I downloaded from Nintendo's store, it still puts out 240p video. Also, consoles become more and more popular in general as gaming shifts away from PCs in most genres. Over 25% of American homes have a console, and I bet that number is a lot higher for VP owners. Just a thought...

small question to anybody who had a XRGB2+ and a XRGB3. Is the XRGB3's picture in B1 mode (BOB linedoubling) as shaky as the XRGB2's output or did they improve the image's stability ?

small question to anybody who had a XRGB2+ and a XRGB3. Is the XRGB3's picture in B1 mode (BOB linedoubling) as shaky as the XRGB2's output or did they improve the image's stability ?You mention bob -- are you talking about 480i video? I would use a more serious video processor for that. In my mind, the only point of the XRGB is that it handles 240p well.

I don't have an XRGB-3 because I read somewhere that it 1) doesn't do scanline emulation, and 2) buffers and delays video when using the digital output, which sort of defeats the whole point of not just getting an analog-only XRGB-2. I can say that my XRGB-2+ does show a tiny bit wobbliness in its output, especially visible in high-contrast vertical edges of stationary objects (including the onscreen menu text). When I use my VP50 directly, the image is perfectly solid. But I'm willing to put up with that problem in the XRGB-2 to get its other benefits, and an XRGB-3 doesn't sound like what I need.

If I had to guess, I'd say that the wobble is related to the analog output circuitry and would not be present in an XRGB-3's digital output. I've never actually seen an XRGB-3, though.

You mention bob -- are you talking about 480i video? I would use a more serious video processor for that.
it's ok. I play mainly arcade games anyway, and while some are output as 240p on the PS2, most are output in some kind of rescaled 480i, so it's ok for the XRGB to drop half the lines again - nothing is really lost.

I've never actually seen an XRGB-3, though.
I had one for a short time and the DVI output is really quite stable, but I never got around to test the VGA output in B1 mode.

Basically I'm having the following problem right now:

I have a DCDi based scaler (Crystalio) which scaling of 240p material I really love (imo even much better than the XRGB2). Problem with those "badly converted" arcade games running in 480i now is that it produces combing effects here and there (nowhere as strong as DScaler for example, but it happens) and I'm thinking of "pre-processing" the PS2's 480i output before going into the Crystalio.

I'll try a VP30 with ABT102 card next week, but from what I've heard I don't expect a better result than with the C1.

The other possibility would be a XRGB3 (*IF* the wobbliness is better than on the 2) between the PS2 and the scaler - maybe with an Extron emotia added to get back real 240p.

Well, I'll see...

I have a DCDi based scaler (Crystalio) which scaling of 240p material I really love (imo even much better than the XRGB2).Does the C1 actually understand that 240p exists and is different from 480i?

Problem with those "badly converted" arcade games running in 480i now is that it produces combing effects here and thereWouldn't just putting the C2 in bob mode (can it do that?) effectively turn 480i back into 240p? It would vertically double each line and display 60 frames/sec (even though it thinks it's doing 60 fields/sec). The only problem might be if it offsets the top of the doubled line to align with the top of the source line being doubled, so lines in "even fields" would be shifted down a single line relative to the "odd" ones, even though in real 240p, all frames (fields) are displayed on the odd lines only.

I know a new iScan can't even be set to bob deinterlacing. The designers probably couldn't think of a reason anyone would want something so primitive, god bless them. The closest thing is Game Mode 1, but that still has edge-adaptive processing (which is fine for actual 480i, but not as good for 240p, which the iScan interprets as 480i, or bad-port 480i that secretly contains 240p content). But if a Crystalio could do a simple bob, wouldn't that solve your problem with badly ported 240p being output as 480i, or did I misunderstand something?

Does the C1 actually understand that 240p exists and is different from 480i?
probably not, but at least he doesn't try anything weird (keep in mind that VXP processors like the C2 or the Optoma can't handle 240p at all). The picture is really 100% solid.

Wouldn't just putting the C2 in bob mode (can it do that?) effectively turn 480i back into 240p?
of course that would be perfect, but unfortunately there is no such feature.

But if a Crystalio could do a simple bob, wouldn't that solve your problem with badly ported 240p being output as 480i, or did I misunderstand something?
you're right, but the C1 can't be set to BOB. Nevertheless it handles "240p deinterlacing" (not really, but you know what I mean) perfectly well and while I can't do any scanline emulation this way, I really love what I see.

On another PC I've got a sweetspot (PDI deluxe) card running with DSCaler it can nowhere touch the C1's quality with 240p material.

I've no idea if you know any of the past years PS2 arcade ports like the Cave shoot'em ups. Arika did a wonderful job on DoDonPachi III and ESPGaluda with glorious 240p, but Taito completely scewed up the conversions of Ibara and Mushihimesama. I've worked quite a bit on getting those two back to real 240p (see http://scanlines.hazard-city.de/ ) and they look great on the CRT now, but next up I need those looking really as good as it gets on a LCD and I'm still struggling here.

I'm looking forward to check the VP30 next week and see how it can perform.

Tobias

I know a new iScan can't even be set to bob deinterlacing. The designers probably couldn't think of a reason anyone would want something so primitive, god bless them. The closest thing is Game Mode 1, but that still has edge-adaptive processing (which is fine for actual 480i, but not as good for 240p, which the iScan interprets as 480i, or bad-port 480i that secretly contains 240p content).Actually the iScan hardware is perfectly capable of doing bob. It's as simple as changing one bit in one register and Game Mode 1 becomes bob. All you have to do is convince the DVDO folks to write the software to do it.

- Dale Adams

Would love to see it, but what are the chances ;) ...

Actually the iScan hardware is perfectly capable of doing bob. It's as simple as changing one bit in one register and Game Mode 1 becomes bob. All you have to do is convince the DVDO folks to write the software to do it.I have no doubt that the hardware is more than capable of something so simple. The problem is that the software team seems to have gaming near the bottom of their priority list. It's like they think Blu-ray players are the only thing that matters. What bothers me a little is that they may be right. I don't know the breakdown of their customers. How many actually are gamers, anyway? Does DVDO actually have enough incentive to pay a guy for a week to fix some of these relatively simple problems that impede using an iScan with games? I sure hope so. They have at least one customer they won't get anything more from until they start fixing these issues. (That sounds like an ultimatum or something, but I just meant it as a practical reality. Currently, they're doing a poor job of meeting my needs.)

Scaler manufacturers underestimate the impact of "gamers". When over the past years my friends moved from CRTs to LCD/Plasmas they all got scalers (mostly DVDO ones) to get their older videogames watchable again.

The vp50 (and I'm sure other scalers) also solve the problems people are having with the dodgy vertical sync on the European Wii when running Megadrive & SNES games under VC. You just have to change the output to 50Hz unlocked.

A lot of TVs don't like it otherwise. Including my PHD8.

Nintendo should have given us the 60Hz versions anyway, huge missed opportunity, but that's another conversation.

bit off topic now, but other scalers don't work with the Wii VC games at all. The VXP can't handle 240p at the moment, so the CII in VXP mode and the Optoma HD3000 can't display Wii VC Mega Drive/SNES/NES games at all right now.

fubar, that's some great testing you've done.

It really is interesting that game upscaling/deinterlacing/lagging doesn't get as much attention as DVD/HD DVD/Blu Ray/Cablebox output in the eyes of hardware and software development for these video processors. Maybe they're assuming it's just kids playing these games on old SD TVs? Maybe they think the adults just want to watch movies? You'd think with so many people having grown up on video games over the years...who are still gamers...there'd be more focus on serving the gamer market with these video processing needs.


I'm not a gamer, but would really like to know what to recommend to my friends who have games that they want to incorporate into their home theatres. Would you say the iScanVP20/30 + ABT102d is the best for all 3 of the big hitters right now (PS3/360/Wii) for upscaling/lag? One more quick question: Have you tried these tests with projectors? I'd be very curious to see how Wii's 480i/p --> 1080p games look and perform on a much larger screen.

You'd think with so many people having grown up on video games over the years...who are still gamers...there'd be more focus on serving the gamer market with these video processing needs.
And I think the only problem is that nobody believes there is a said market. Clearly the majority of VP purchasers are Home Theater perfectionists who are just watching TV or DVDs/Blu-Rays/HD-DVDs, but I think they underestimate the buying power of the gaming market. As someone who specializes in fighting games, I get asked all the time by people in the fighting game community what they need to buy for Street Fighter not to lag on their HDTV. Most of them are still buying/looking for XRGBs, because an iScan is a very high price for a device that they only need to do one thing.

I think if DVDO were to launch a device that ONLY included Game Mode 1 and 2 deinterlacing, 480i/480p scaled to 720p/1080i/1080p, 240p recognition and proper scaling, and passthrough (no processing) for HD sources at a budget price ($200-$300), they'd have an instant success [DVDO: Contact me about this and I will tell you exactly what this device should have, lol].


I'm not a gamer, but would really like to know what to recommend to my friends who have games that they want to incorporate into their home theatres. Would you say the iScanVP20/30 + ABT102d is the best for all 3 of the big hitters right now (PS3/360/Wii) for upscaling/lag? One more quick question: Have you tried these tests with projectors? I'd be very curious to see how Wii's 480i/p --> 1080p games look and perform on a much larger screen.

Yes, iScan VP20/30 + ABT102d is surely the best at the moment.

I haven't done any testing on projectors, but there's an easy way to test now. Since Guitar Hero II was released for X-Box 360 this past week, you can now use the excellent built-in latency test on all resolutions (480i/480p/720p/1080i/1080p) with a single game/console. So, as far as latency goes, you can quickly figure out what resolution will give you the best response time in your HT setup.

As far as PQ goes, Wii 480i/480p and other standard def games will only look so good when they're blown up on huge projectors, but the VPs will give you the best possible PQ in these situations unless you're using 240p output gaming systems (pre-Saturn/PS1). As sidB and others have pointed out, it would be extremely easy to incorporate 240p recognition in the VP series, but for now the XRGB-2+ can't be topped for 240p processing.

I think if DVDO were to launch a device that ONLY included Game Mode 1 and 2 deinterlacing, 480i/480p scaled to 720p/1080i/1080p, 240p recognition and proper scaling, and passthrough (no processing) for HD sources at a budget price ($200-$300), they'd have an instant success [DVDO: Contact me about this and I will tell you exactly what this device should have, lol].That's actually a good idea. I think it's what Micomsoft was trying to do with the XRGB a few years ago (for VGA computer monitors, which were as close to HD as there was at the time), but they didn't follow through into the present very well.

On the other hand, I wouldn't buy one. I have a VP50 that really should do all that already, and I do use a lot of its extended features. I use the AV hub functions, the advanced aspect ratio fiddling (for my 16:10 display, among other things), the framerate conversion (to lock it at 60Hz on consoles that otherwise confuse my display), and I do watch movies sometimes, too. In terms of hardware, about the only things I could give up without losing anything are the composite and S-video inputs, the analog output, and whatever extra processing power is needed for 1080i video deinterlacing (which I used to think I'd need, but it turns out I don't).

If I were designing a dream VP for gaming, it would have more analog audio inputs, though.

I recently bought an XRGB-3, which I updated using the latest full firmware 2.01 including XRGB-3 CPU Version2.01 + CMD Version2.01 + XRGB-3 FPGA(B2) Version2.01.
Then I selected B2 which match the FPGA ver 07_01_31 to enable scanlines mode, but I couldn't find the option to do this anywhere on the menus. Could you please explain me precisly how to get access to it?

Then to use the WINinP viewer, I guess I have to plug my pc DVI video card cable into the XRGB-3, then output the XRGB-3 in passtrhough mode while powered on to my monitor. However altough I installed WINinP software well, when I try this setup, my monitor can't detect any signal, and I can't understand why?

Didn't use my XRGB-3 for quite some time, but scanlines should be the last option under the 5th menu point.

If I remember right scanlines are only available in linedoubling mode which was B1. Wasn't B2 added with the last update to add widescreen resolutions ?

By checking the 7th page of this thread, the post of the user omega_supreme says you were right about scanline only in B1:
http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?p=246131&sid=bc62869cc6578e699eb3d7091b39824d

So I switched to B1, however scanline was still nowhere to be found. The option you pointed to me was the same than other Banks, i.e Drawing method which just allow to undersize or not the picture to fit tv screens which crop the borders unlike pc screens.

You can check the menus of the default firmware translated by fubarduck on the 1st page of the thread:
http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?t=6987&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0&sid=131363c82b9e763025cc3eb72f09fdc1

As I could find absolutely no answer at all on the net, you would be my savior if you could please use your XRGB-3 to find again precisely where is the option !

I think you should ask on the shmups board instead. I guess more people are actually using their unit there compared to here.

I won't be home for another week or so, but if you haven't figured it out till then, I'll gladly check it out and give advice.

Well thanks a lot, I guess I'll have to wait for your test, since I tried 2 times to register in shumps forum, but I never had any confirmation email to be able to post there. Maybe in the meanwhile could you please post this question there for me ?

im interested in upconverting a wii to 1080p, would any of these units do a good job?

im interested in upconverting a wii to 1080p, would any of these units do a good job?

- The iScan VP20/VP30 (With ABT102d deinterlacing card) does an excellent job and is most recommended for this
- XRGB-2+/XRGB-3 cannot output 1080p, so these cannot do what you want
- The iScan VP50 should be avoided
- The iScan VP50 Pro can get the job done as well as a VP30 with a beta firmware update (v1.02 released Dec. 3rd, 2007)

- The iScan VP20/VP30 (With ABT102d deinterlacing card) does an excellent job and is most recommended for this
- XRGB-2+/XRGB-3 cannot output 1080p, so these cannot do what you want
- The iScan VP50 should be avoided
- The iScan VP50 Pro can get the job done as well as a VP30 with a beta firmware update (v1.02 released Dec. 3rd, 2007)

Ok thanks.
I'm also interested in a Video converter for my: Wii, Xbox 360,.
Because the Nintendo Wii, can only do: 480P/575i

Or should I buy a good A/V receiver ?
Because I want buy a new one.
Which can upscale from: 480p to -> 720p ?

Can IScan VP20 also scale from 480p to: 1366 x 768 or: 1680x1050 my PC screen ?
Because most LCD tv's, use this resolution.

What I really want to now is - Can the XRGB-3 or any of the iScan models take in a 1920×1080 (16:9) signal and output a 1920×1200 (16:10) signal with black bars at the top and bottom through HDMI? I like using my consoles on my monitor but I hate the fact that video is always stretched vertically to fill in the space...

The VP50 (non pro) should be able to do this. The 165MHz limit and therefore their limitation to 1080p output was elimitated sometime last year, so you can get a 1920x1200 signal out of them. This is the only DVDO scaler so far to be able to do this.

It would of course be significantly cheaper to just buy a better monitor. All the better ones offer the possibility to display a 1080p signal WITH black bars.

I thought about just getting another monitor, but I also want to use older systems (NES, SNES, GameCube, PS2, Saturn, etc...) as well and they don't really look that great on newer displays without some assistance.

Thanks for your reply though. I have heard that the VP50 can do it, but I haven't gotten any confirmation that it does to it. Before I plop down over a grand for a VP50, I need to know for sure. Has anyone actually done it or can anyone that has one try it?

You can look into the main VP50 thread. Some time between autumn and winter last year there was a firmware upgrade which eliminated the 165Mhz limit and allowed for 1200p resolutions while keeping the syncrate locked.

I tried a short hookup to my NEC LCD2180 PC monitors (1600x1200) and I seemed all fine. I shortly after switched to a VP50pro though which doesn't offer this feature yet.

Thanks for your reply though. I have heard that the VP50 can do it, but I haven't gotten any confirmation that it does to it. Before I plop down over a grand for a VP50, I need to know for sure. Has anyone actually done it or can anyone that has one try it?I have used the VP50 to provide a 1920x1200 input to a Dell 24" LCD. It worked fine.

This is actually better than just setting the VP50 to 1080p output because 4:3 material can use the full 1200 pixel height of the screen. 4:3 in a 16:9 signal on a 16:10 monitor results in black bars on all four sides and wastes screen space.

Awesome! I've been trying to get an answer to that question for months now. I can't believe that it's taken this long. I just hope that they don't discontinue the VP50 before I can save up for one. :D

Awesome! I've been trying to get an answer to that question for months now. I can't believe that it's taken this long. I just hope that they don't discontinue the VP50 before I can save up for one. :DFor more details about the video timings, see my earlier post (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11878823#post11878823) about this. The problems with 60 Hz locked sync mentioned there have since been fixed, BTW.

Thanks for the info. I'm sure that you've save me and anyone else that wants to use a VP50 with a WUXGA 1920x1200 display a few days of hair pulling.

How does the VP 20 or 30 handle the Wii when set to widescreen? Does it remain full screen without any kind of stretching or black bars? Secondly has anyone tried the component cables for the Wii made by Monster? I have the Nintendo made cables though I’m curious what anyone might have to say about the Monsters.
Anyone have any experience with the VP 20 or 30 for ps2 games? I'm curious which would look better, the VP or the Ps3.

How does the VP 20 or 30 handle the Wii when set to widescreen? Does it remain full screen without any kind of stretching or black bars?
You can do whatever you want.

Anyone have any experience with the VP 20 or 30 for ps2 games? I'm curious which would look better, the VP or the Ps3.
I like the VP20/30 better. The PS3's PS2 deinterlacing isn't bad, but it's quite soft in it's scaling. Also the PS3 won't upscale PS2 games running in 480p mode, while the VPxx of course will.

Thank you for the reply.

When I came up with the idea to look into external scalers for my older game consoles I feared I might be taking things too far. Good to know I’m not completely crazy and or alone.

Most definitely not. I've started to look into upscaling when I bought a 29inch VGA CRT years back and it got more and more important with the move to LCD. And while I have to admit that the LCDs' integrated processing has gone a long way since back then, it's still far from being anywhere acceptable for older videogames, so it's always a good idea to get a proper processing device :)

I’m new to all this so hang with me. What I don’t understand is why these units are so expensive. I’m absolutely stunned by what the Toshiba HD A2 is able to do with DVD’s. I’m totally satisfied with that level of performance. So not only did it scale DVD’s marvelously, it also played HD DVD’s and yet even at launch I don’t think those units cost more than $500. So what gives, what on Earth is in these units that’s driving up the cost? Couldn’t someone just produce a cheap scaling box using something akin to what was in the Toshiba with just a handful of options?

I apologize for resurrecting this thread, but it is relevant to my question and did not want to create a new one.

I am trying to eliminate gaming lag on primarily rhythm games (namely Rock Band/Guitar Hero for XBox 360) on my Panasonic TH-42PZ77U 1080p display. I am looking at buying the iScan VP30 to achieve this. Will I need the ABT102d deinterlacing card as well or will the stand-alone unit work?

I've tried using the calibration methods built into the games, but they don't seem to be helping at all.

Thanks for the help!

Grant R.

With the XBox360 being able to deliver a progressive signal already, you won't be able to reduce the lag introduced by your TV using a processor. On the other hand I'm a bit confused as your Panasonic plasma is rather fast already and surely not known for long delays.

Is it possible that you're feeding 1080i instead of a progressive signal? This would be only scenario in which your TV needed some time for deinterlacing/processing.

Thanks for the response. It does not lag much, but I still notice it when I compare it to my CRT television. The plasma isn't instantaneous to my controller inputs like the CRT is.

I believe these games were designed for 720p resolution so should I set my resolution to 720p in the Video Settings from the XBox? Would this help?

Most games are running at some weird resolution, so scaling most likely always takes place. 720p insures though that your TV does not have to do any deinterlacing, so I would imagine that there's a noticeable difference in the lag between a 720p and 1080i connection to your TV.

I had my XBox set to 1080p in the settings and was using an HDMI cable to connect it to the TV so there still shouldn't be any deinterlacing, correct? If I set the console to 720p, then my TV will have to scale to its native resolution of 1080p, introducing some latency. I think that's right...I'm kind of new to all this stuff.

Hi,

I need to know what is the best system for plug 240P source (like SNES, Genesis...) and some others like PS2, Saturn, N64, PS3, X360...
I think to purchase a VP50 but i need to know if it's the best.
Someone can synthetis to me this topic for me please ? I'am sorry but my english don't understand all discussion.

Many Thks.

The VP50 does NOT accept 240 sources at all.

The DVDO Edge is easy to handle and works with all sources. Picture quality is good for all sources. If you want better 240p quality you need a XRGB.

Edge + XRGB-3 is the perfect combo for all systems. Check the infos on the website in my signature...

Hi,

Thks you for this quick answer.
Do you know how to purchase a XRGB 3 on the web ?

VP50 is interesting for other console system like x360, ps3 or other ?

Thks.

Do you know how to purchase a XRGB 3 on the web ?
next week on http://www.solarisjapan.com/ . The store's still down (since the earthquake), but will be back online next week.

VP50 is interesting for other console system like x360, ps3 or other ?
not really, the processing lag on HD sources is high and the processor is much older than the Edge.

What's the best between XRGB 3 and DVDO Edge ?
Or maybe you advise to have booth ?

Regards.

Just read my reviews.

Basically the XRGB is the absolutely best processor for 240p RGB and YUV sources. Everything else (480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i, 1080p) is better on the Edge.

Really depends on your preferences and your current setup. 480p/720p/1080p usually looks pretty good on a plasma or LCD by itself, without the need for a processor.

The XRGB/Edge combo is pretty universal, but expensive as well. If your TV can handle the XRGB (= VGA input available), I would recommend getting a XRGB first and an Edge later if you still need it.

Along with the XRGB you need to make sure that you have the proper cabling for your systems. There's no sense in putting $400 towards processing composite video from any video game system. Get RGB cables for SNES, Genesis, Saturn etc...

And join the XRGB discussion over here: http://shmups.system11.org/viewforum.php?f=6

Fudoh, I was just at Shmups site reading the how the DVDO EDGE performs thread,
Man you know your stuff..

Sorry to go off topic for A minute, Concerning this post by you on Shmups"

Because there technically isn't such a thing as sync polarity for HDMI signals and the Edge does not have an analogue RGBHV output. All DVDO machines with VGA output also have switchable sync polarity via software."

I never new that but I just wanted to confirm to you that the VP50/Pro does indeed allow H/V polarity changes & Sync type through its HDMI out..

I use A CRT Projector with A Moome HDMI 1.3 card that slots directly into the projectors B input, Allowing me to run HDMI for the entire video chain right to the projector, the VP50pro allows different H/V polarity's and Sync type running this config..

Jase..

I know (since I use a 50pro), but does a change in sync polarity actually make a difference ? I mean is there a definite standard for HDMI signals ? Since most (if not all) HDMI only devices don't allow to change the sync polarity I guess it just doesn't matter for HDMI signals. On my display(s) the change of polarities doesn't show any effect.

The topic came up since the SLG3000 (which is a VGA in / VGA out scanline overlay device) has problems with certain sync polarities and the HDFury just seems to pass on the HDMI sync polarities to it's outputs.

Hi Fudoh,
In my case yes Changing the Sync polaritys for HDMI within the 50pro does indeed show A noticable change on the CRT Projector exactly like when running Analog 5BNC..

Not only does the Picture displayed exibit A difference when changing Sync H+/V+ to H-/V- but going into the Projectors onscreen Menu for input signal type confirm's the change in sync polarity also....

VESA DMT / DTV CEA 1920 x 1080p Khz 67.500--Hz 60.000 148.500 +/+
HDMI.org has industry standard timings for 1080p/60/8bit as 148.5 Mhz & believe polarity Sync is H+/V+) interestingly Pal is H-V- for Analog...


Jase...