you can add the nadt754 to the list, plenty of bass without the +10 db boost, almost too much at times.

For PCM LFE, or for bitstream?

I'd like to know how the 604 performs also. If someone has a 604, could they please test the LFE functionality? Thanks.

Have any Onkyo SR604 owners been able to confirm or deny the existance of the LFE issue over the HDMI input? There is a pretty sweet deal on this receiver at crutchfield right now and I'd like to get it. However, since I don't own an HD disc player of any kind I won't even be able to test this when I do get it!

and the 82/84 as well.

paul

Firmware updates seem to fix it for the 72/74 and 82/84.

using the HK 340 multichannel in from my PC soundcard and the bass is noticeable lower than when using optical. The soundcard does offer some bass management (LFE Crossover, Speakers Size) as well as Level controls for my 5.1 setup.
After reading the first page, it says that the player (my soundcard) should NOT increase the subwoofer level by +10db, and that the receiver should offer level increase. My HK 340 offers different levels for each of its inputs, including multichannel, for which I can increase the levels of each of the satellites as well as the subwoofer.
So is that what i should do? Increase the level on my receiver to +10db for the Sub?

Thanks

So is that what i should do? Increase the level on my receiver to +10db for the Sub?

Thanks

yes. That's exactly what I do with the analog outs from my Toshiba HDA1 on my 335. Unless something has changed between the 340 and the 335 though, you can only go +9.

If you use analogue, the receiver won't be doing bass management etc. So if you want to select small speakers or change distances, you need to do that in the player, replicating your settings for the receiver.

If you are doing bass management in the player, then the SW output will probably be 15dB lower than the rest (-10dB to fit the LFE, and another -5dB to fit redirected bass). So you need to get that lifted up relative to the other channels. The +10dB setting on the receiver will get you most of the way there, and you can get the rest by turning all the other channels down 5dB in the player, so the SW output will now be amplified 15dB more than the rest. Running a calibration DVD through the analogue hook-up should show that everything's okay.

In future, I suggest you look out for players that can adjust their channel levels over HDMI. Some can - with them you can work around the Pioneer problem by telling them to turn all their other channels down 10dB.
the HK-340 allows me to boost/reduce levels for all channels, so in the receiver, can i just increase the SW level by +10db and also in the receiver change the rest of the channels to -5db? or does the -5db have to be done on the player side?

the HK-340 allows me to boost/reduce levels for all channels, so in the receiver, can i just increase the SW level by +10db and also in the receiver change the rest of the channels to -5db? or does the -5db have to be done on the player side?

You could do it in either place if you required that much boost to the sw. I'd check with tones to be sure. BTW, I was in the process of replying to your previous post about where to do the level adjustment and it seems to have disappeared. You were correct though. You can make those adjustments either from the front panel or the OSD.

On another note, I have a question for you regarding the EQ+ feature on the 340. To avoid threadjacking, I'll send it to you via pm. Thanks.

adrman,
thanks, i havne't gotten around to check levels if i do really need that much of a boost, right now the +10db on the sub sounds the same as my optical input, but i'll check the levels before adjusting the rest of my levels by -5db.

thank you

LFE levels and SACD:

As with my previous posts where I compared DD to DVD-A LFE over HDMI to a Pioneer AVR, I've begun trying to do the same for SACD to see whether that format suffers from the 'LFE bug' too (when converted to PCM at least, by an Oppo 970)). The problem here for me is what to use as 'reference'. For DVD-A, once can use the DD LFE on the same disc, as reference. If the DVD-A is mixed like the DD, and the LFE bug is present, then the DVD-A LFE will be -10dB down compared to DD-- and that's what I found for the Chesky Ultimate Surround test disc LFE, as well as a Steely Dan DVD-A disc.

To test SACD I got myself the Who's "Tommy" in 5.1 in both its DVD-A/DD and SACD versions. These were released at the same time, from presumably the same mixes. My setup was as before (pure direct mode in the AVR, speakers large in the oppo, channel trims at neutral), only this time to make it easier to isolate the subwoofer output, I disconnected my other speakers. I 'calibrated' the reference level to 0dB using the first bass note of the second bar of the Dolby Digital versions of 'Cousin Kevin' (radio shack analog meter, C weighted, slow).

1) for the DVD-A version, the same note measured at -2.5 dB. This is unusual in my experience, as I would have expected -10 dB (and rechecking the previously used discs gave that -10 dB result again, so this is a 'Tommy'-specific thing)

2) for the SACD-->PCM version, the same note measured at -6 dB. This intermediate value between -10 and 0 difference, yet also different from the DVD-A value, is puzzling.

So it looks like 'Tommy' alone won't help me generalize about SACDs and the LFE bug...or DVD-A s either for that matter. It almost looks as if the mixers of Tommy DVD-A already knew that many setups don't compensate for DD-like LFE levels, so they didn't cut back the LFE by -10.....

I now plan to obtain Elliot Scheiner's 'Gaucho' mix in SACD, as I already have that DVD-A, and Scheiner's DVD-As do tend to display a -10 dB difference IME.

LFE levels and SACD:

As with my previous posts where I compared DD to DVD-A LFE over HDMI to a Pioneer AVR, I've begun trying to do the same for SACD to see whether that format suffers from the 'LFE bug' too (when converted to PCM at least, by an Oppo 970)). The problem here for me is what to use as 'reference'. For DVD-A, once can use the DD LFE on the same disc, as reference. If the DVD-A is mixed like the DD, and the LFE bug is present, then the DVD-A LFE will be -10dB down compared to DD-- and that's what I found for the Chesky Ultimate Surround test disc LFE, as well as a Steely Dan DVD-A disc.

To test SACD I got myself the Who's "Tommy" in 5.1 in both its DVD-A/DD and SACD versions. These were released at the same time, from presumably the same mixes. My setup was as before (pure direct mode in the AVR, speakers large in the oppo, channel trims at neutral), only this time to make it easier to isolate the subwoofer output, I disconnected my other speakers. I 'calibrated' the reference level to 0dB using the first bass note of the second bar of the Dolby Digital versions of 'Cousin Kevin' (radio shack analog meter, C weighted, slow).

1) for the DVD-A version, the same note measured at -2.5 dB. This is unusual in my experience, as I would have expected -10 dB (and rechecking the previously used discs gave that -10 dB result again, so this is a 'Tommy'-specific thing)

2) for the SACD-->PCM version, the same note measured at -6 dB. This intermediate value between -10 and 0 difference, yet also different from the DVD-A value, is puzzling.

So it looks like 'Tommy' alone won't help me generalize about SACDs and the LFE bug...or DVD-A s either for that matter. It almost looks as if the mixers of Tommy DVD-A already knew that many setups don't compensate for DD-like LFE levels, so they didn't cut back the LFE by -10.....

I now plan to obtain Elliot Scheiner's 'Gaucho' mix in SACD, as I already have that DVD-A, and Scheiner's DVD-As do tend to display a -10 dB difference IME.

krabapple, this test may be a little faulty because you disconnected your other speakers, and therefore, are unaware of the relative recorded volume going from the DVD-A version to the SACD version. It is possible that the DVD-A was recorded at a slightly higher volume than the SACD. In my own tests, I find Dr. Chesky's Magnificent, Fabulous, Absurd and Insane Musical 5.1 Surround Show DVD-Audio track to be louder than the DD track w/o changing the volume on the receiver. Although your Tommy DVD-A and SACD may come from the same mix, it is possible to be at different volumes. Keep your speakers connected and mark down the volume setting on the receiver in order to get the same decibels for each disc.

Here's a reply from the Yamaha support on the Yammy LFE issues:


"We're aware that 10dB boost for LFE is require for older model of receivers, that's due to the older decoder of DD,DTS do not equip +10dB bass boost for LFE channel.

However, all current DD/DTS decoder have equip with +10dB LFE level by default. Hence, all our new receivers like RXV1700 has make change to its LFE level to -20~0dB instead of +10dB boost. Adjusted downward is necessary since by default is already +10dB level.
This setting can be found in set manual->sound->LFE level-> -20 to 0dB.

The same applied to SACD and DVD-audio when you play under HDMI. By default its LFE level is already +10dB level.

Therefore, our engineer said it is not necessary to include the +10dB LFE in the option."

Here's a reply from the Yamaha support on the Yammy LFE issues:


"We're aware that 10dB boost for LFE is require for older model of receivers, that's due to the older decoder of DD,DTS do not equip +10dB bass boost for LFE channel.

However, all current DD/DTS decoder have equip with +10dB LFE level by default. Hence, all our new receivers like RXV1700 has make change to its LFE level to -20~0dB instead of +10dB boost. Adjusted downward is necessary since by default is already +10dB level.
This setting can be found in set manual->sound->LFE level-> -20 to 0dB.

The same applied to SACD and DVD-audio when you play under HDMI. By default its LFE level is already +10dB level.

Therefore, our engineer said it is not necessary to include the +10dB LFE in the option."

I am not sure if I am reading this right.. for DD soundtracks decoded by the amp, do we need to dial it down -10dB?

Might explain why I felt the LFE is stronger for DD than for MPCM HDMI?

No. LFE on almost all formats needs a +10dB boost. The only exceptions are some early DTS music CDs, and Super Audio CD. But even with Super Audio CD, the player usually lowers the LFE by 10dB to make it match the other formats (so it needs a +10dB boost in the receiver).

Because that +10dB boost is the standard LFE level, receivers show it as "0dB". "-10dB" removes the boost, ie putting it 10dB below standard level.

In a sane world, there would be no need for an LFE level control. Just another thing for people to get wrong.

No. LFE on almost all formats needs a +10dB boost. The only exceptions are some early DTS music CDs, and Super Audio CD. But even with Super Audio CD, the player usually lowers the LFE by 10dB to make it match the other formats (so it needs a +10dB boost in the receiver).

Because that +10dB boost is the standard LFE level, receivers show it as "0dB". "-10dB" removes the boost, ie putting it 10dB below standard level.

In a sane world, there would be no need for an LFE level control. Just another thing for people to get wrong.

I understand the concept of the +10dB requirement :) I am just trying to understand what the official Yamaha response was saying. So do we need to make adjustments or not?

No. "0dB" is the correct setting, unless you've got to compensate for a wrongly mixed disc, or some other piece of attached equipment that's being odd.

Many amps don't even let you select anything other than 0dB (=10dB boost).

Yes KMO is correct. Just leave the LFE setting at 0dB under normal circumstances.

Now we can sleep much better after knowing for sure there's no LFE issue with our Yammy 1700/2700. Lovingdvd had tested it & arrived the same conclusion. :)

Receivers boosting PCM LFE input by 10dB

<snip>

* Pioneer VSX-84TXSi/VSX-82TXSi(VSX-AX4ASi/VSX-AX2ASi): latest USA firmware apparently fixes - with this, +10dB analogue SW boost also affects HDMI+ i.Link. New units may not have this firmware. Fix not yet available in Europe. Status of i.Link SACD after fix remains unknown.

I want to make sure I am reading the above correctly. So if I have one of the Pioneer AVRs listed above, and it has the firmware fix for boosting PCM LFE input by 10dB applied; I would 'activate' it by setting the +10db analog SW boost, which would, in turn, affect analog, i.Link, and HDMI across the board, right?

BTW, this is a fantastic thread and a great resource. I would be truly something if we could get some more data on individual players bass management behavior. I am particularly interested in knowing whether the Blu-ray Disc and HD DVD players drop the SW output another 5db whether bass management is being performed inside the player or not.

For Harman Kardon AVR-340 you have options to trim all 5.1/7.1 channels from -10db to +10db for multichannel input. The sub must be put at +10db to get correct bass output and level match with the rest of the speakers.
Just info for the OP to update first post.

thanks

I haven't verified this, but according to my Pio 1014 manual it says:

"You can change the levels at any time by using EFECT/CH and +/- on the remote control. You can set separate levels for the listening modes (Standard, Home THX, Advanced, Stereo/Direct) as well as for the MULTI CH IN mode. However, the listening mode setting will be cleared if you use one of the setups (for example, System Setup or Auto Setup) to set channel levels at a later date."

Sounds to me like I can set the channel level for the sub to be +10 on the analogs....of course I'm not sure if I have that much room to spare on my adjustments, but I think I can increase the sub amp gain some to give me some headroom...the 1014 has -10 to +10 on the speakers levels.

Ok...I did verify that I can set the levels on the MULTI CH Analog inputs independently from the digital inputs....I couldn't independently change them in the surround modes...though I would guess that is operator error since I am partaking on some adult beverage this afternoon...

Ok...I did verify that I can set the levels on the MULTI CH Analog inputs independently from the digital inputs...

Yes, my Pioneer Elite VSX-49TXi has this capability as well. However, from reading the first post of this thread, I have come to realize the fallacy behind thinking boosting the SW +10db with the Effect/Ch Sel will fix a low LFE issue. I'm still a little fuzzy on this, but I believe the only way this will work is if you turn off the bass management completely in your source (player) and if your receiver is cable of applying bass management to analog inputs. Still, I could see where this wouldn't work because if the +10db is being added after the receiver performs bass management, then you are boosting LFE plus redirected bass 10db instead of just LFE.

On a related note, in reference to this:

LFE digital output from players

<snip>

When outputting a PCM multichannel bitstream over Denon Link, i.Link, HDMI or similar, the LFE channel will be transmitted "as-is", and will need boosting by 10dB in the receiver. The receiver should do this automatically.

If you set your source (player) to output HDMI audio with the Auto setting it will send bitstream for DD and DTS, and, I assume, PCM for all the advanced audio codes. The receiver should expect either one of these to be 'as-is' and know it is responsible for bass management and boosting, correct?

Yes, my Pioneer Elite VSX-49TXi has this capability as well. However, from reading the first post of this thread, I have come to realize the fallacy behind thinking boosting the SW +10db with the Effect/Ch Sel will fix a low LFE issue. I'm still a little fuzzy on this, but I believe the only way this will work is if you turn off the bass management completely in your source (player) and if your receiver is cable of applying bass management to analog inputs. Still, I could see where this wouldn't work because if the +10db is being added after the receiver performs bass management, then you are boosting LFE plus redirected bass 10db instead of just LFE.

On a related note, in reference to this:



If you set your source (player) to output HDMI audio with the Auto setting it will send bitstream for DD and DTS, and, I assume, PCM for all the advanced audio codes. The receiver should expect either one of these to be 'as-is' and know it is responsible for bass management and boosting, correct?

I believe you are right. SW adjustment does not imply that LFE will be fixed...too bad really.

I have a dilemma. First, let me admit that I only read the initial post which explained why I wasn't hearing any bass when I adjusted my system.

Here's my story:

I went home last night, excited that I had found the solution to my setup. I have a Theta Casablanca IIIb and two subs on the LFE channel. So I went into the DD setup page and found the LFE level setting but it won't go above 0. Does that mean that it is already set +10? Because what I ended up doing is to set the sub level +10 to what the RS meter said was equal. It's not really a problem because all my speakers are set to full so the subs don't handle anything other than the LFE but it sounds much better now at +10.

What gives?

Is your player-->AVR connection analog or digital?

The LFE bug shouldn't affect Dolby Digital if you are passing it digitally from DVD player to your Theta. If you are using analog connectons, then you'll need to boost the Theta's sub output by +10 dB. Normally this would screw up bass management, but you aren't using any.


Again: in typical setups (where Dolby Digital and DTS are passed as bitstream), the LFE bug is encountered ONLY when playing the LFE content of:

1) the new lossless DD and DTS formats found on high definition DVDs

2) DVD-Audio (and possibly SACD)


If you are using a digital connection and found that you weren't hearing 'any' bass when playing normal Dolby Digital soundtracks, it is more likely due to room acoustics than the LFE bug.

I just bought a H/K AVR 247. Sounds great, but looks like it has the LFE bug and no option in the menu to fix it. I used a PS3 with DVE disk to generate LFE pink noise and the bitstream mode in PS3 is 10dB higher than the linear PCM mode. I am using HDMI throughout.

Yikes!!

I just bought a H/K AVR 247. Sounds great, but looks like it has the LFE bug and no option in the menu to fix it. I used a PS3 with DVE disk to generate LFE pink noise and the bitstream mode in PS3 is 10dB higher than the linear PCM mode. I am using HDMI throughout.

Yikes!!

So, does that mean that all is well when sending bitstream from the PS3? If I only have 5.1 with no plans to change to 7.1, is this not good news?

I'm also considering the AVR 247 and am curious about its performance in regards to the LFE issue. Again, I have no interest in 7.1 and the only reason (I think) that I even care about HDMI is because (if I understand correctly) I can't get audio from the digital out of my PS3 when using HDMI for video. Otherwise, I'd just send the video directly to monitor via HDMI and audio to the receiver via digital out. Is my understanding accurate?

Thanks all...

mdmaz, your understanding is a bit incorrect, let me explain.

the LFE issue is not related to 5.1 or 7.1. In fact, I have a 5.1 system with no plans to upgrade to 7.1 anytime soon.

The PS3 can be used with HDMI for video and optical for audio. In fact, this is how I was using it when I had my non-HDMI Denon AVR-2803 receiver. In PS3, you can configure your video to come out of HDMI and your audio to come out of optical.

Don't misunderstand me, the AVR247 is an excellent receiver that produces great sound in my Klipsch Reference Series surround system. However, there are issues with it that might irk some people.

Almost all receivers including the AVR-247 handle the LFE track (with the 10dB boost) correct when they process a signal such as Dolby Digital or DTS. It does not matter whether that signal is coming through the optical, coaxial or even HDMI connection. If you use HDMI and select a dolby digital track from a movie your playing and you set the PS3 HDMI to output bitstream, then the 247 will handle the LFE correctly.

However, if you want the high resolution sound that are in some games and Bluray movies in the form of PCM, then even if you set the PS3 HDMI output to bitstream, it will send a PCM signal since that is the original data in the disk. The 247 has handles the PCM fine for sound quality and it sounds great, but it does not apply the 10dB boost on the LFE channel. So, the PCM sound track in the movies lack the punch in the explosions, etc.

I hope this explanation helps.

bommai, your explanation makes sense. That helps a lot and I appreciate your response.

Thank you.

Could you guys please help me figure out what receiver would meet what you would consider the minimum requirements. Brands I am looking at are H-K, Denon or Marantz. I just ordered a Marantz SR4001 but do not want to get stuck with it.
Also just read some news about Marantz and H-K quality that is making me wonder if they are worth looking at.

Thanks for the help.

Could you guys please help me figure out what receiver would meet what you would consider the minimum requirements. Brands I am looking at are H-K, Denon or Marantz. I just ordered a Marantz SR4001 but do not want to get stuck with it.
Also just read some news about Marantz and H-K quality that is making me wonder if they are worth looking at.

Thanks for the help.

These are all fine speaker brands. Marantz is known to be an "enthusiast brand", which means you pay more but you also get more. If I were to base my purchase on the manufacturer's history with the "LFE bug", I would probably choose Denon as it seems to be trouble free. The Denon that would be a match for your Marantz SR4001 is probably the 1907 (this Denon does NOT have HDMI switching so it is not a perfect match).

If you can afford to wait until next month, Onkyo 605 goes for about $600 and will have HDMI 1.3a (worth the wait). This receiver would meet 2007 minimum requirements for advanced audio decoding and has the same 2 HDMI in/1 out that the Marantz SR4001 offered.

Could you guys please help me figure out what receiver would meet what you would consider the minimum requirements. Brands I am looking at are H-K, Denon or Marantz. I just ordered a Marantz SR4001 but do not want to get stuck with it.
Also just read some news about Marantz and H-K quality that is making me wonder if they are worth looking at.

Thanks for the help.

I've had a SR4001 in service for about two weeks now and I'm extremely pleased with it. It has a different sound than the HK335 it replaced, but I'm actually finding the sound to be a bit more detailed in the surrounds and with stereo sources as well. It is handling lfe via hdmi correctly and the 7.1 channel input has a separate channel level adjustment so you can bump your sw accordingly if using an analog source. I have two very minor issues. One, you can't rename the inputs and two, you can't set a default power up volume.

I've had a SR4001 in service for about two weeks now and I'm extremely pleased with it. It has a different sound than the HK335 it replaced, but I'm actually finding the sound to be a bit more detailed in the surrounds and with stereo sources as well. It is handling lfe via hdmi correctly and the 7.1 channel input has a separate channel level adjustment so you can bump your sw accordingly if using an analog source. I have two very minor issues. One, you can't rename the inputs and two, you can't set a default power up volume.

Does your SR4001 accept 7.1 LPCM through HDMI (ie. from an HD-DVD, BD player, PS3, etc.)?

Bumping up the sub also bumps up any redirected bass from speakers set to "small" so I wouldn't call this a workaround for the "LFE bug." If you have tested and verified that your receiver does not suffer from the "LFE bug", perhaps it should be listed in the first post as a "green" receiver.

Does your SR4001 accept 7.1 LPCM through HDMI (ie. from an HD-DVD, BD player, PS3, etc.)?

Bumping up the sub also bumps up any redirected bass from speakers set to "small" so I wouldn't call this a workaround for the "LFE bug." If you have tested and verified that your receiver does not suffer from the "LFE bug", perhaps it should be listed in the first post as a "green" receiver.

As to the first ?, Since I'm 5.1 I can't be positive, but if my PS3 is outputting pcm 7.1, the 4001 indicates it. As to the second, I'm aware of the difference between lfe and redirected bass. To my knowledge there is no bass management applied to those inputs. It is left to the connected player to handle that task. The 4001's 7.1 channel inputs have separate level settings from the global ones used by the other inputs. I've checked my Toshiba HDA1 both via hdmi-pcm vs. 5.1/analog (with the 4001's 7.1 sw channel bumped) and it has been correct in both instances.

As to the first ?, Since I'm 5.1 I can't be positive, but if my PS3 is outputting pcm 7.1, the 4001 indicates it. As to the second, I'm aware of the difference between lfe and redirected bass. To my knowledge there is no bass management applied to those inputs. It is left to the connected player to handle that task. The 4001's 7.1 channel inputs have separate level settings from the global ones used by the other inputs. I've checked my Toshiba HDA1 both via hdmi-pcm vs. 5.1/analog (with the 4001's 7.1 sw channel bumped) and it has been correct in both instances.

I don't know what KMO's criteria is for a "green" receiver but the SR4001 seems to be a candidate. Thanks for your input.

Contacted Marantz and they assured me that the SR4001 will accept 7.1 LPCM through HDMI. And LFE bug is not a problem.

Also they do have another thread started by Marantz in the avs forum they will answer any questions you may have about the brand.
It appears they are really trying to improve the quality of the product.

search for AVSRichard he is the sales tech from Marantz that started the thread.

Sr4001 meets the green list requirments.

Thank you guys for the help.

Great thread!!! Just purchased the 3806 and there is definitely an LFE drop out on it while sending it PCM from my Panasonic BD player. I dont know if its the Panny's fault or the Denon... Any new info on this?

Great thread!!! Just purchased the 3806 and there is definitely an LFE drop out on it while sending it PCM from my Panasonic BD player. I dont know if its the Panny's fault or the Denon... Any new info on this?

According to the first post, your 3806 is listed as a "green" receiver, which means it handles both the analog and digital (PCM through HDMI) LFE correctly. You may need to enable the 10dB boost for your sub if it hasn't been done already.

According to the first post, your 3806 is listed as a "green" receiver, which means it handles both the analog and digital (PCM through HDMI) LFE correctly. You may need to enable the 10dB boost for your sub if it hasn't been done already.
I did a little more testing with other receivers and players and it appears my Panasonic BD player may be to blame.

What exactlly do you mean by "enable the 10dB boost for your sub"???
Thanks

I did a little more testing with other receivers and players and it appears my Panasonic BD player may be to blame.

What exactlly do you mean by "enable the 10dB boost for your sub"???
Thanks

I just read through your 3806 manual and according to Denon, your 0 dB setting for LFE is equivalent to other receivers' +10dB setting. In other words, no change from your default setting of "0 dB" unless you've previously changed it.

I just read through your 3806 manual and according to Denon, your 0 dB setting for LFE is equivalent to other receivers' +10dB setting. In other words, no change from your default setting of "0 dB" unless you've previously changed it.
Ok... I figured that. Thanks!

For Harman Kardon AVR-340 you have options to trim all 5.1/7.1 channels from -10db to +10db for multichannel input. The sub must be put at +10db to get correct bass output and level match with the rest of the speakers.
Just info for the OP to update first post.

thanks

Thanks for your posts, very helpful. I have some more questions and would appreciate your input.

[1] What should the speaker levels be set at from within the XA2 Speaker Menu?
As for distance, should I type in the correct distance from my seating position, or should I leave them all at 0, and enter this info on the receiver's Speaker setup menu?

[2]From your quote above: using the receiver's speaker menu, if I set the sub at +10db, what should I set the rest of the speakers at?


Thanks,

Thanks for your posts, very helpful. I have some more questions and would appreciate your input.

[1] What should the speaker levels be set at from within the XA2 Speaker Menu?
As for distance, should I type in the correct distance from my seating position, or should I leave them all at 0, and enter this info on the receiver's Speaker setup menu?

Leave the xa2's speaker levels at 0. Distance should be entered on the xa2 though, as the 340's distance settings are not applied to the 6.1 direct input.

[2]From your quote above: using the receiver's speaker menu, if I set the sub at +10db, what should I set the rest of the speakers at? Thanks,

I would leave them at 0, until you get a chance to measure and fine tune them with a spl meter.

Hello,
I read this post regarding the LFE issue and was wondering if you can make sense out of my setup.
I have a Denon 1920 with no BM to a Denon 3805. I use the 1920 as my universal player and it is connected to the 3805 with 6 analog cables for SACD/DVDA and also toslink cable for DD and DTS soundtracks. I have my EXT lN Sub Level at the default +15DB on the 3805. I have the internal (gain) sub level for the 3805 set at 4.0db for playback of SACD (EXT IN). This provides me with good balance while listening to SACD. If I listen to the same SACD (hybrid) with a PCM signal (2ch) I have to set the sub level at 12db to even come close to what the 1920 needs at 4.0db. So I guess you can say I have too much bass when listening to SACD and the same applies when watching movies dubbed in Dolby Digital. I would've had the sub level should be the same no matter which unit is doing the decoding.
When I try to adjust channel levels on the 1920 it only allows me to decrease. I can not increase levels.
Do I need to turn down the EXT Sub level, it only allows me to decrease as well? Is this why my base response is off by so much when swtching between both devices?

adrman: Thank you for your response. Since your Marantz 4001 receiver handles PCM over HDMI correctly (no LFE problem with HD DVDs), let me ask you this: if you were me, would you buy the 4001? Or would you wait for one of the newer receivers with HDMI 1.3 that's coming out? I already understand what 1.3 brings to the table, so that's not so big of a deciding factor. I don't have a receiver with HDMI at this time.

adrman: Thank you for your response. Since your Marantz 4001 receiver handles PCM over HDMI correctly (no LFE problem with HD DVDs), let me ask you this: if you were me, would you buy the 4001? Or would you wait for one of the newer receivers with HDMI 1.3 that's coming out? I already understand what 1.3 brings to the table, so that's not so big of a deciding factor. I don't have a receiver with HDMI at this time.

Well had I not added a PS3 to my setup, I probably would have kept my HK335 as I was very happy with the sound from my HDA1 via the analog outs. The way I look at it, it never hurts to wait because there's always something new, but not necessarily better coming out. I think I'd also sit back for some time and see how the whole DTS HD Master Audio saga plays out. Technically, the players are supposed to decode it, but none do yet. However, there are some receivers due up that provide decoding capability. If you decide you want a 4001 down the road, I doubt the price will have went up, but it might go down. Get your 340/XA2 calibrated, sit back and enjoy a movie. :)

Well had I not added a PS3 to my setup, I probably would have kept my HK335 as I was very happy with the sound from my HDA1 via the analog outs. The way I look at it, it never hurts to wait because there's always something new, but not necessarily better coming out. I think I'd also sit back for some time and see how the whole DTS HD Master Audio saga plays out. Technically, the players are supposed to decode it, but none do yet. However, there are some receivers due up that provide decoding capability. If you decide you want a 4001 down the road, I doubt the price will have went up, but it might go down. Get your 340/XA2 calibrated, sit back and enjoy a movie. :)

Well, I have the 435/XA2, and on some HD movies, the LFE/bass barely there. I'm using analog outputs. IIRC, the 340 and 435 Harman Kardon are very similar feature-wise. I'm very tempted to just hook them up via SPDIF, worst case of Dolby Digital Plus is still better than Dolby Digital. Last night, I tried your method (XA2 speaker levels at 0, distance entered per my room configuration, receiver's settings of sub at +10 dB, rest of speakers at 0 dB) Still sounded very weak overall, compared to SD DVD played through my non-HD DVD player. I just want a receiver where I can hook up via HDMI and get awesome video AND awesome audio.

Thanks,

Sorry, I thought you had the 340. I've read a bit about the analog lfe/bass problem with the xa2, but I thought it was possible to calibrate around it. With the ps3 addition I was in a similar situation (bitstream or nothing) and I elected to buy now. When I listen to multi-channel pcm from the ps3, I do hear a difference vs DD, DTS via bitstream. So, I'm happy I decided not to wait. Probably if I were in your shoes, I'd be auditioning a new avr, but I'm just trying not to be an enabler. :D

When I listen to multi-channel pcm from the ps3, I do hear a difference vs DD, DTS via bitstream.

What kind and how large of a difference?

Thanks,

What kind and how large of a difference?

Thanks,

I wouldn't say it's huge, but the biggest difference to me is I perceive a greater dynamic range. However, listening to Dolby TrueHD on the HDA1, it's pretty much a wash when I flip between pcm/hdmi to the analog outputs of the player.

If you can afford to wait until next month, Onkyo 605 goes for about $600 and will have HDMI 1.3a (worth the wait). This receiver would meet 2007 minimum requirements for advanced audio decoding and has the same 2 HDMI in/1 out that the Marantz SR4001 offered.

So just to make sure I understand this correctly. I was considering the Onkyo 605 anyway & based upon what you are saying here, the 605 should not experience this LFE bug everyone is referring to & would be one of the acceptable receivers in this area? Is that correct?

Ken

So just to make sure I understand this correctly. I was considering the Onkyo 605 anyway & based upon what you are saying here, the 605 should not experience this LFE bug everyone is referring to & would be one of the acceptable receivers in this area? Is that correct?

Ken

I wouldn't be able to guarantee that but if you look at the first post of this thread, Onkyo receivers are basically all "green" (good to go). The only odd behavior that was noted was for the 804:

"Onkyo SR-804E: can't apply EX/PLIIx/etc to multichannel PCM input"

I'd say chances are good that the 605 will NOT be affected by the LFE bug. If I didn't already buy my buggy Pioneer 84 this year, I would've taken a chance on that 605 or higher.

Thanks for your posts, very helpful. I have some more questions and would appreciate your input.

[1] What should the speaker levels be set at from within the XA2 Speaker Menu?
As for distance, should I type in the correct distance from my seating position, or should I leave them all at 0, and enter this info on the receiver's Speaker setup menu?

[2]From your quote above: using the receiver's speaker menu, if I set the sub at +10db, what should I set the rest of the speakers at?


Thanks,
i'm sorry i do not know what xa2 is.
as for the distance, yeah just get a tape and measure the distance from your listening position to the speakers and enter them manually using the menu. But the speaker distance has no affect when using multichannel, the only adjustable option when using multichannel is adjusting levels...so don't forget to set your crossover/distance on the player side and adjust the levels on the receiver side.

I used a SPL meter to get all my speakers at the same level and my sub had to be set to +10db to match in level...so you would have to use an spl meter to correctly set the levels of the rest of your speakers.

I agree with most here. If you are trying to calibrate, especially Mult CH Analog and Toslink the SPL meter will make your life a lot easier and a DVD with test tones. I was having similiar issues and my Denon 3805 is very similiar to the 3806 with the exception of HDMI.
I was able to calibrate my SACD, CD and DVD to produce the same levels no matter which one is doing the decoding.
If anyone is using a Denon 1920 or something similiar, make sure you turn on the "Base Enhancer". Mine was set to the default "off" and it clearly states in the manual that it should be set to "on" when using analog mult and 2 channel playback. This little tweek increase my sub-level by about 10db according to the sound meter and test tones in my S&V Home Theatre DVD.

KMO(or others), any insight as to why my Panasonic BD player(when everything is set to PCM) is outputting the LFE channel 6 decibels less than Bitstream(when using DVE)? I originally thought it was my new 3806, but after running the same tests on my Samsung BD player, it shows Panasonic to be at fault....

KMO(or others), any insight as to why my Panasonic BD player(when everything is set to PCM) is outputting the LFE channel 6 decibels less than Bitstream(when using DVE)? I originally thought it was my new 3806, but after running the same tests on my Samsung BD player, it shows Panasonic to be at fault....
Does your Pan BD have any base management adjustments you can make? Have you checked your Ext LFE Sub level in the 3806's menu. It should be set to the default +15db. A couple areas to try.

In paragraph 3 you say "The thing is kind of (a) mess" KIND OF A MESS??????????? KIND OF????? This is the biggest mess and screw up I have ever seen in a consumer product, and THAT is saying a LOT in our world of computers and software. I can't believe this!!!!!!! Last fall I printed this thread out, with posts from 11-9-2006 to 11-20-2006. That printed as 33 printed pages. I thought I pretty much had all the info I needed to buy a new receiver or pre-pro with that. Now I look at this thread again and people are still furiously posting here in March and April of 2007! OMG! Printing it all would run to over 500 pages, if 10 days gives 33 pages. I think the U.S. government should step in here and FORCE the manufacturers of receivers, players and pre-pros sold in the United States to fix this or bar them from selling their junk here. This is a fraud on the consumer. A gigantic fraud on the consumer. We need a standard-setting body here, like in broadcast standards. An international body, probably. I will NOT buy a receiver or a pre-pro until and unless this MESS is resolved totally. I am going to write to Congress about this. We need Uncle Sam to step in at least in the U.S. and force a resolution of this. Don't waste your money on this crap merchandise if these morons are so stupid and wreckless as to put this junk on the market.
Mainly due to service centers not doing the complete suite of upgrades.. Not sure if you've peaked over at the threads, but the complete update effects four out of the six version numbers (on the 82). On the 84 there are seven firmware numbers, the seventh being the i.link host I believe.

One guy (derekjsmith) posted his numbers of his "updated" 82 and the service center only did one of the updates which did not fix the problem. Pioneer hasn't given out correct information about which of the updates are required to fix the problem -- all of them could be.

Also, I haven't seen anyone who actually had the updates done complain that it didn't work. Well I have, but they didn't do the lfe boost or they didn't get all the upgrades as mentioned above. Or they have a 72. The whole thing is kind of mess, no one has been super scientific with their findings which makes it hard to decide what is accurate data and what is not. It's getting better though.

As far as getting a new unit that has the level of updates required -- this sounds like a crap shoot. My unit was built in October 06 and before the firmware update it supposedly had the neccesarry level of firmware to deal with LFE correctly. I didn't try before I upgraded. A couple of people have purchased recently with luck. The best advice I've heard is be prepared to deal with the firmware upgrade process and educate yourself on what is required to do so. Find the closest service center and be prepared to ship the unit if they are not with in driving distance.

My gut feeling however is that most new units (if you can verify the build date) will work out of the box. Buy from a B&M shop, you can always just take it back if you don't get one that is fixed.

Maybe it is a little premature to update the list due to lack of info, it's up to you. I'll be happy to gather any info you need.


-Brian

Does your Pan BD have any base management adjustments you can make? Have you checked your Ext LFE Sub level in the 3806's menu. It should be set to the default +15db. A couple areas to try.
Thanks for the reply...
Checked evrything in the Panny, you cant adjust any levels while using HDMI.
Dont have a +15 in the 3806???? Only -10 to 0?????

My first post in this thread - just found it yesterday.

KMO, I study/read home theatre pretty much every day, yet learned more on this subject reading your first post than the entire year and half prior since owning my system. Very helpful post, thank you.

The Denon AVR-3805 offers a dedicated 0-15db analog SW gain, so can be included in your list.

I see the Denon DVD-2930 matches SACD analog playback by dropping SW by 10dB. I would imagine my Denon DVD-3930CI does as well. I've not tested it, but LFE sounds as expected. Has anyone confirmed this? Or do you know?

What is happening when I set my player's 'bass enhancement' feature on? The manual reads it is an option for 2 ch sources without LFE signals, (setting is only effective for analog outputs). Is my player effecting a SW gain, or are certain frequencies simply being directed to the SW?

My player has a setting for a SW gain of 10dB. I have this set to off since I have my receiver set for a 15dB gain. I would imagine Denon provided this feature in case it is paired with a receiver that does not have this option?

Lastly, when you explain something in writing, I understand it (i.e., "But the subwoofer channel contains both the LFE channel and redirected bass from the other channels".

But when you explain the same point via your formula, I don't follow (i.e., SW = LFE + Lower10dB(Redirected bass), or equivalently, SW = Raise10dB(LFE) + Redirected bass).

Can you please explain how your formulas work? What does this specifically mean, "Lower10dB(Redirected bass)"?

Thanks for the reply...
Checked evrything in the Panny, you cant adjust any levels while using HDMI.
Dont have a +15 in the 3806???? Only -10 to 0?????
Shamus,
have you looked in the "Input SetUp", it should be Ext. In Subwoofer Level. Have you tried using the analog outputs from the Panasonice to see if there is any diiference and then turn on the EXT.IN on the 3806, basically let the Panasonice do the decoding then raise the Ext. In Subwoofer level to +15db.

My first post in this thread - just found it yesterday.

KMO, I study/read home theatre pretty much every day, yet learned more on this subject reading your first post than the entire year and half prior since owning my system. Very helpful post, thank you.

The Denon AVR-3805 offers a dedicated 0-15db analog SW gain, so can be included in your list.

I see the Denon DVD-2930 matches SACD analog playback by dropping SW by 10dB. I would imagine my Denon DVD-3930CI does as well. I've not tested it, but LFE sounds as expected. Has anyone confirmed this? Or do you know?

What is happening when I set my player's 'bass enhancement' feature on? The manual reads it is an option for 2 ch sources without LFE signals, (setting is only effective for analog outputs). Is my player effecting a SW gain, or are certain frequencies simply being directed to the SW?

My player has a setting for a SW gain of 10dB. I have this set to off since I have my receiver set for a 15dB gain. I would imagine Denon provided this feature in case it is paired with a receiver that does not have this option?

Lastly, when you explain something in writing, I understand it (i.e., "But the subwoofer channel contains both the LFE channel and redirected bass from the other channels".

But when you explain the same point via your formula, I don't follow (i.e., SW = LFE + Lower10dB(Redirected bass), or equivalently, SW = Raise10dB(LFE) + Redirected bass).

Can you please explain how your formulas work? What does this specifically mean, "Lower10dB(Redirected bass)"?
Ronnie,
I have been playing with this all week. When I left the "Bass Enhancement" off and checked the levels with my Radio Shack SPL meter there was a drop of about 10db in the sub. When turned "on" I was able to match the other channels to 75db all the way aorund. All this while keeping the Ext. In Subwoofer Level to the default +15db on the 3805. I used a S&V HT DVD with test tones to make sure all of my speaker levels were matched.
I checked my levels with analog and toslink. I played DVD's, SACD, and CD's. While listening to DVD's dubbed in Dolby Digital I switched back forth between EXT.IN and AUTO. The overall volume and sub levels were about the same. Maybe a slight edge when using the Auto (toslink), because of the 3805's Room EQ I imagine.
I also played CD's and switched between analog and toslink again very similiar results.
Tried a John Legend SACD (hybrid), played in 2ch and 5.1 analog then compared it's base output playing the same disc in 2ch (toslink). Same results.
The SPL meter is key, it doesn't matter if you are calibrating to 75db or 85d as long as all of your speakers match.

Shamus,
have you looked in the "Input SetUp", it should be Ext. In Subwoofer Level. Have you tried using the analog outputs from the Panasonice to see if there is any diiference and then turn on the EXT.IN on the 3806, basically let the Panasonice do the decoding then raise the Ext. In Subwoofer level to +15db.
Thanks. Gave it a shot and can get LFE to match by using analogs but, it appears the negatives will be no Audyssey, no bass management and no IIX processing. I think I'll just boost the Sub 6 decibels and live with it for now. Shame Denon couldnt of put a +10 LFE in there.... but its not their fault.

Thanks. Gave it a shot and can get LFE to match by using analogs but, it appears the negatives will be no Audyssey, no bass management and no IIX processing. I think I'll just boost the Sub 6 decibels and live with it for now. Shame Denon couldnt of put a +10 LFE in there.... but its not their fault.
It looks to me like Panasonic owes you a firmware fix. :(

Regards,
Terry

It looks to me like Panasonic owes you a firmware fix. :(

Regards,
Terry
I think your right....

KMO,

Your analysis of this problem is breathtakingly detailed and I am sure correct. However, for the poor guy at home who like me has legacy equipment in his AV setup, the easiest solution is to insert a pink noise source like AVI or VE in the chosen player and using whatever signal path and decoder one chooses, set the individual channel amplifier gains appropriately to achieve the 75 dB SPL using a Sound Level Meter.

...the Denon DVD-2930 matches SACD analog playback by dropping SW by 10dB. I would imagine my Denon DVD-3930CI does as well. I've not tested it, but LFE sounds as expected. Has anyone confirmed this? Or do you know?...
Got a new Denon DVD-757 player (identical to 1930CI); had forgotten how horrible this problem is. Receiver: Yamaha RX-V1400, interconnect: 6-ch analog.

When playing multichannel SACD or DVD-A material, subwoofer level is about 20 db too weak, with all player and amp gain controls at 0 db. Measured with SPL meter, 75 db ref level, C-weighted slow, using SACD pink noise calibration disc.

But -- using the DVD-757 built-in pink noise, subwoofer output is correct. Only when playing actual SACD/DVD-A material is it weak, so the player is attenuating SWFR output in that mode. It's not like the player's DACs can't output the correct signal amplitude.

Amp provides discrete multichannel analog SWFR gain of 0 to +10 db, which isn't enough. Player "bass enhancement" setting does nothing. Player output trims are attenuate only -- 0 to -12 db.

The only thing that works is setting all player outputs (except SWFR) at -10 or -12 db, PLUS setting amp SWFR gain at +10db, AND turning up amp master volume to compensate for lower player output. That gives a combined effective SWFR boost of about 20 db.

Using an SACD multichannel calibration disc, this gives about the right SWFR output on an SPL meter. BTW, shouldn't SWFR level (measured on an SPL meter, not RTA) be a few db higher than the other channels when playing pink noise?

Problem doesn't exist for DD or DTS 5.1 material, only SACD & DVD-A.

Don't know why the Denon DVD-757 "bass enhancer" setting does nothing.

This is just a ridiculous problem. I'd love to know what % of the SACD/DVD-A user base ever get their systems calibrated correctly. I'll bet it's a small number.

Edit/add: player is set for multichannel analog output, SWFR "on", all other speakers "small".

It's not clear that SACDs require an LFE boost at all. Some players reportedly lower the SACD LFE output by 10 dB anyway, to maintain compatibility (see the first post in this thread). Then of course a 10 dB boost would be required somewhere downstream.

But 20 dB down sounds worse than normal for the LFE bug.

What SACD calibration disc are you using?

SACD pink noise is from track 8 of the DMP Multichannel Reference SACD.

On my system, it's not unique to the calibration disc -- that merely allows easier quantification of the problem. Every multichannel SACD and DVD-A disc I have is very bass weak unless the above-mentioned compensations are made.

If I set SWFR levels using the SACD calibration disc and SPL meter (using about +20db boost), THEN the bass levels for all the other SACD/DVD-A discs sound aesthetically about right.

Also DVD-A discs have a DD 5.1 compatibility layer, so an additional verification is switching between the DD 5.1 and multichannel DVD-A version of the same material. Only with the above compensations (about 20 db on my system) is the DVD-A bass level about equal to the DD 5.1 bass level (relative to the other channels at a given volume level). DD 5.1 bass level calibrated using DVE disc and SPL meter.

I have no idea why SWFR output is 20db weak on my system, nor why the Denon DVD-757 "bass enhancer" does nothing. Adjusted as described, it sounds OK, but I'm uncomfortable with the gymnastics required to achieve that. Amp SWFR gain is pegged one way, and the player output trims (except SWFR) are pegged the other way, just to reach normalcy.

I have been reading this post for a couple of days now and I have come to the conclusion that pcm uncompressed was a farce to upgrade your receivers. The conclusion is that the HDMI receivers are not out there in full demand yet nor are there any that can correct the drop in bass level without tweaking the reciever's other speaker levels. I do like the uncompressed sound of pcm Uncompressed in the High's but the Low's do not compare to the DD 5.1. I Have 2 MandK 5000's and 2 deftech bp2000 with built in 15 inch subs all hooked up to the LFE channel. Likewise, I suffer a considerable loss in bass in the low end when switching over to the 5.1 channel input. I can't adjust my levels when switching to the anolog inputs because they are grayed out in the menu. I have a sony 777 es receiver. It performs nicely and even though it is outdated it still is a great reviever in the AVS sony market. My question to the other thread members is why use the analog outs on the player when the receiver does a better job of decoding anyhow? And even though the 5.1 channel analog is uncompressed, wouldn't the Dolby Digital 5.1 sound better in the lower end because of the optical usage of the LFE channel, or is it a matter of opinion when boosting the Low end in PCM uncompressed? One last question my reciever has a dts +10 db boost. If I boost to 10db will this compensate for the drop in uncompressed PCM? I just spent $100 dollars for 6-1.5 meter cables to hook up the analog outs on my sony blueray player only to find out that the DD5.1 Sounds better due to the lack of bass in PCM uncompressed and the fact that I can't calibrate the low end because of the limited capabilities of my receiver. Man what a waste of money and time, but I guess a lesson to be learned in the long run. Backwards technology is hard to make fit if it requires a half a$$ solution. It is kind of like trying to fit a polarized plug into a non polarized outlet, it may fit with allittle effort, but whats the point if you break the outlet in doing so to get it in?!?!?! Then what happens if if is not 110V?

I have been reading this post for a couple of days now and I have come to the conclusion that pcm uncompressed was a farce to upgrade your receivers. The conclusion is that the HDMI receivers are not out there in full demand yet nor are there any that can correct the drop in bass level without tweaking the reciever's other speaker levels. I do like the uncompressed sound of pcm Uncompressed in the High's but the Low's do not compare to the DD 5.1. I Have 2 MandK 5000's and 2 deftech bp2000 with built in 15 inch subs all hooked up to the LFE channel. Likewise, I suffer a considerable loss in bass in the low end when switching over to the 5.1 channel input. I can't adjust my levels when switching to the anolog inputs because they are grayed out in the menu. I have a sony 777 es receiver. It performs nicely and even though it is outdated it still is a great reviever in the AVS sony market. My question to the other thread members is why use the analog outs on the player when the receiver does a better job of decoding anyhow? And even though the 5.1 channel analog is uncompressed, wouldn't the Dolby Digital 5.1 sound better in the lower end because of the optical usage of the LFE channel, or is it a matter of opinion when boosting the Low end in PCM uncompressed? One last question my reciever has a dts +10 db boost. If I boost to 10db will this compensate for the drop in uncompressed PCM? I just spent $100 dollars for 6-1.5 meter cables to hook up the analog outs on my sony blueray player only to find out that the DD5.1 Sounds better due to the lack of bass in PCM uncompressed and the fact that I can't calibrate the low end because of the limited capabilities of my receiver. Man what a waste of money and time, but I guess a lesson to be learned in the long run. Backwards technology is hard to make fit if it requires a half a$$ solution. It is kind of like trying to fit a polarized plug into a non polarized outlet, it may fit with allittle effort, but whats the point if you break the outlet in doing so to get it in?!?!?! Then what happens if if is not 110V?

First of all, it is not possible to experience the LFE bug using the analog cables. It sounds like there's something wrong with your setup. Which Blu-ray player do you own and what are the trim levels at?

...why use the analog outs on the player when the receiver does a better job of decoding anyhow? And even though the 5.1 channel analog is uncompressed, wouldn't the Dolby Digital 5.1 sound better in the lower end because of the optical usage of the LFE channel, or is it a matter of opinion when boosting the Low end in PCM uncompressed...
I'll try to answer, other members can correct me where necessary.

6-ch player analog out is necessary on multi-channel SACD music; don't think digital out is generally available due to piracy concerns. Likewise most DVD-A players. With the advent of HDMI you may have the option of high-res multichannel music over that in some cases.

If DD 5.1 has better bass on your system, it's likely NOT because of an optical connection. Rather it's probably due to:

(1) The better standardization and handling of LFE on Dolby and DTS
(2) More readily-available calibration methods (various discs, also auto-calibration and parametric equalization on some receivers)

If so, this illustrates the difference between theory and implementation. In theory SACD and DVD-A have superb noise floors, dynamic range, s/n ratio, etc.

However on my system DD 5.1 music sounds better unless multi-channel SACD/DVD-A is calibrated in a manner that few people likely figure out.

Getting proper SACD/DVD-A bass on my system requires turning the Denon DVD-757 player trims down max (-12db), leaving SWFR trim at 0db, then turing up amp master volume, plus pegging amp SWFR discrete analog input at +10db. That hurts the noise floor by 12db.

I don't know why your amp channel level ajustments are greyed out when using multi-channel analog in. However you may be able to adjust them on the player.

I have the sony bdp-s1. The LFE can be effected by the analog outs because it is sending the pcm uncompressed signal through these outputs into the 5.1 discrete inputs on the receiver. I have experienced the loss in bass but not the mid to high end. I have checked all the connections and tried to calibrate my receiver but nothing can be done to correct this. I cannot change any of the functions on the receiver when in 5.1 channel mode. I also cannot change the LFE channel either. They seemed to be not selected and greyed out on my reciever and remote. My blueray player does not have the capability to change levels to compensate for the lower bass in the LFE channel. Unless there is a way to boost the LFE channel I am going to stick with the DD5.1. Any suggestions?

The AVR is supposed to provide the boost. Even my old denon AVR 2803 had a external subwoofer-in db setting for precisely this reason. If the boost is already there from the player, it might overload the pre-amp.

Guys, this is not rocket science. Any receiver or system with a separate Pre/Pro and amp can be adjusted to provide appropriate LFE levels vis a vis the main channels. All you have to do is buy a disc like AVIA or VE and run the channel level tones. If you do not have suficient gain in the LFE channel to make its output equal the other channels, all you have to do is attenuate the 5 channels and boost the .1 channel. Hell, I have a Sony ESP9ES Preamp/decoder that only has digital inputs. It does have 6 channels of BYPASS but these offer no control capability. They only pass through whatever goes into them. Recently I bought a Toshiba XA2 HD DVD player with analog outputs. I adjusted the 5 channels' internal controls to -12dB. I dialed in 0 dB for the .1 channel. I raised the gain (input level control) on my Velodyne F1800R so that I measured equal levels from all f6 channels when the test tones were applied. I then went back and attenuated the LFE level on my preamp so that when playing DD5.1 sources like the optical or coaxial outputs from the XA2 that carry normal DD and DTS, the levels were equal. Easy, it just requires a little common sense. BTW, My reference tones to which I adjust everything else are my DTS 5.1 tones. These travel through the original DTS Millenium decoder. Everything else is set so that I get 75dB SPL with reference tones.

I'll try to answer, other members can correct me where necessary.

6-ch player analog out is necessary on multi-channel SACD music; don't think digital out is generally available due to piracy concerns. Likewise most DVD-A players. With the advent of HDMI you may have the option of high-res multichannel music over that in some cases.

If DD 5.1 has better bass on your system, it's likely NOT because of an optical connection. Rather it's probably due to:

(1) The better standardization and handling of LFE on Dolby and DTS
(2) More readily-available calibration methods (various discs, also auto-calibration and parametric equalization on some receivers)

If so, this illustrates the difference between theory and implementation. In theory SACD and DVD-A have superb noise floors, dynamic range, s/n ratio, etc.

However on my system DD 5.1 music sounds better unless multi-channel SACD/DVD-A is calibrated in a manner that few people likely figure out.

Getting proper SACD/DVD-A bass on my system requires turning the Denon DVD-757 player trims down max (-12db), leaving SWFR trim at 0db, then turing up amp master volume, plus pegging amp SWFR discrete analog input at +10db. That hurts the noise floor by 12db.

I don't know why your amp channel level ajustments are greyed out when using multi-channel analog in. However you may be able to adjust them on the player.

Bitstream SACD is passable through HDMI as of version 1.2 and both SACD/DVD-Audio can be passed from player to receiver using iLink.

Calibrating a system for DD, DTS, SACD, and DVD-A is trickier than it sounds due to the different gain levels required by each format. The most important tip is to get those speaker distances right in the receiver if passing bitstream and distances right in the player if going from RCA analog to receiver/amp.

JonathanLandis, what are the speaker distances set at in your BDP-S1? If you are running analog cables from this player, speaker distances in the receiver aren't going to help you.

Guys, this is not rocket science. Any receiver or system with a separate Pre/Pro and amp can be adjusted to provide appropriate LFE levels vis a vis the main channels. All you have to do is buy a disc like AVIA or VE and run the channel level tones....attenuate the 5 channels and boost the .1 channel...Easy, it just requires a little common sense...
The procedure you describe is what I and others have done to achieve proper bass output from SACD & DVD-a multichannel material over 6-channel interconnects.

However -- there are several problems with this.

(1) You can't calibrate using AVIA/VE DD 5.1 discs and have that work for multichannel SACD/DVD-A analog sources. The signal path is totally different.

(2) Most people don't have an SACD or DVD-A calibration disc, or even know they exist.

(3) Using manual calibration of SACD/DVD-A multichannel material, some configurations require extreme adjustments to player output trims and amp SWFR gain. E.g, on my system my amp SWFR gain is pegged at full plus, and my player output trims (except SWFR) are pegged at full minus. That achieves correct SWFR SPL using SACD pink tones, but I doubt most people ever figure that out.

(4) Turning down all player trims -12db except SWFR, then turning up amp master vol does achieve more SWFR boost but hurts noise floor by 12db. Personally I can't hear the difference, but it's philosophically wrong.

(5) Possible overboost of redirected bass from SACD/DVD-A sources. Using the described procedure, you can achieve proper SWFR SPL from the LFE channel of multichannel SACD/DVD-A using 6-ch analog interconnects. However -- when playing the 5 main channels, the increased gain is then boosting LFE + redirected bass, not just LFE. I'm not sure about this one -- on my system all six channels remain in balance despite this theoretical concern.

(6) Finally, receivers with auto-calibration for DD 5.1 typically don't work for multichannel analog sources. That seems like a small thing, but it imposes an additional requirement on the user base. You have to double-calibrate -- separate procedures for DD/DTS 5.1 sources vs SACD/DVD-A multichannel analog sources. Probably only a small % of the user base (those with high-res multichannel h/w and material) ever figure this out. No wonder multichannel SACD/DVD-A isn't successful.

If newer technologies can pass high-res multichannel bitstream audio to the amp, and if the amp can do multiple discrete auto-calibrations (one for each source type), then finally we'll be where DD 5.1 was several years ago from an ease-of-use standpoint.

<4) Turning down all player trims -12db except SWFR, then turning up amp master vol does achieve more SWFR boost but hurts noise floor by 12db. Personally I can't hear the difference, but it's philosophically wrong.>

I have a PHD in Physics and an undergraduate minor in Philosophy. In neither discipline did I ever read that audio engineering had anything to do with philosophy. The noise floor is so low that adding 12 dB of gain should have no effect unless you own a tube amp.

Your point about redirecte bass is correct. That is why I use LARGE speakers everywhere.

Maybe I should take this over to the reciever forum. I don't think some of the responses were correct in assuming that every reciever can be calibrated when using the 6 direct analog outs on the DVD player and into the discrete 5.1 analog ins in the reciever. I have tried everything and it seems to be the same thing. There is no way I can change the outputs on the reciever when the 5.1 discrete analog button is selected. I can only change this when the auto format decode button is pressed. However then the reciever is not in 5.1 discrete analog. I have checked the analog cables, just to make sure that the cables were not crossed or mismatched. I will check this again. I would like to keep the pcm uncompressed function as my optimal sound for the blueray dvd's that have them, but with the lack of bass I think my only option is either to manually turn up the sub on the back, or boost the output gain somehow. Hey thanks for the help! I really appreciate the feedback from all of the knowledgeable people on this forum. By the way, I have both discrete analog and optical cable conected at the same time on the back of the dvd player. Would it make a difference if the optical was disconnected when using the 5.1 Analog? Thanks, Jon L

<4) Turning down all player trims -12db except SWFR, then turning up amp master vol does achieve more SWFR boost but hurts noise floor by 12db. Personally I can't hear the difference, but it's philosophically wrong.>

I have a PHD in Physics and an undergraduate minor in Philosophy. In neither discipline did I ever read that audio engineering had anything to do with philosophy. The noise floor is so low that adding 12 dB of gain should have no effect unless you own a tube amp.

Your point about redirecte bass is correct. That is why I use LARGE speakers everywhere.

But not everyone can, or should, use LARGE speakers and settings everywhere (I use LARGE only in my disc player; SMALL in the AVR). That's not rocket science either. It's a common real-world situation, and bass management complicates
channel level calibration. This is laid out well in the first post of this thread.

I have a PHD in Physics and an undergraduate minor in Philosophy. In neither discipline did I ever read that audio engineering had anything to do with philosophy.
I thought that Schopenhauer had very definite views on the LFE channel.

Would anyone care to discuss the LFE issue IRT the Panasonic S-97 DVD and DVD-A player? I bought mine in Oct. 2005. I paid $270 so it was a good one. It was rated very highly with regard to video in an Audioholics shootout.
I am ready to upgrade to 5.1. I'm thinking the Onkyo 905 would be good in August, 2007. Apparently Onkyo receivers handle LFE correctly. The 905 will be "THX Ultra2" certified. Does that tell us anything re the LFE issue? Someone here says the 605 probably will handle it right too.
But I am also tempted by the Emotiva IPS-1 power amp and the successor to the MMC-1 pre-pro, coming in January, 2008. Yesterday I printed out all 81 pages of the MMC-1 owners manual. The amp and pre-pro will probably be ~$1200 each, so not a lot more than the $2,099 Onkyo 905. Can anyone discuss whether the current MMC-1 pre-pro is handling the LFE issue correctly? I emailed Emotiva a couple weeks ago and told them about this thread. They mailed back and said the LFE issue is easy to address. Yesterday I emailed them again and said, although I do not know if their current products get it right or not, for sure, before they put the new pre-pro into production, read this entire thread. I told them that since it now runs to 500 pages if printed out, that they should read it, discuss it, and then tell me again if the issue is easy to handle. Today they emailed me back and said they will show my mail to the company owner when he gets back next week.
KMO, if you were Emotiva and finalizing the new pre-pro coming in January, 2008, what would you do to be sure it can handle the LFE issue correctly? Allow the user to apply 0, 5, 10 or 15 dB of bass boost? Does that solve this whole issue?
When I read this thread for a couple of hours, I am very highly impressed by the brainpower displayed here. It is the number of possible combinations and permutations of players and receivers that makes for the thousands of words of discussion. The dedication and care that people are putting into testing combinations of equipment is stunning.
If you or anyone else could "clear" the Onkyo Tx-Nr905 or the Emotiva MMC-1 pre-pro it would help me immensely. Also, does the panny S-97 handle LFE right? Thanks for any answers.

fresno,

This dedication as you call it to audio issues in general has been going on since the mid 50's. The equipment changes, the issues change but the people who search for something better do not change. Used to be that people would say they were trying to make things sound "real". Now it is no longer real, it is better. That means that we now worship the machines and their settings and feel that the resulting audio/sound must be precise llike a check book ortally sheet..

The reason the LFE issue is not a problem is that if you do not have enough bass coming out of the subs just turn their gain up until it sounds good. That is the reason we have all these tone control devices and trim pots. They are to be used according to what sounds good to you. The variables are too great. In every room a speaker will sound different. In every position it will produce varying frequency response and a given speaker's output relative to another will change based on its placement. Use the knobs.

Would anyone care to discuss the LFE issue IRT the Panasonic S-97 DVD and DVD-A player? I bought mine in Oct. 2005. I paid $270 so it was a good one. It was rated very highly with regard to video in an Audioholics shootout.
I am ready to upgrade to 5.1. I'm thinking the Onkyo 905 would be good in August, 2007. Apparently Onkyo receivers handle LFE correctly. The 905 will be "THX Ultra2" certified. Does that tell us anything re the LFE issue? Someone here says the 605 probably will handle it right too.
But I am also tempted by the Emotiva IPS-1 power amp and the successor to the MMC-1 pre-pro, coming in January, 2008. Yesterday I printed out all 81 pages of the MMC-1 owners manual. The amp and pre-pro will probably be ~$1200 each, so not a lot more than the $2,099 Onkyo 905. Can anyone discuss whether the current MMC-1 pre-pro is handling the LFE issue correctly? I emailed Emotiva a couple weeks ago and told them about this thread. They mailed back and said the LFE issue is easy to address. Yesterday I emailed them again and said, although I do not know if their current products get it right or not, for sure, before they put the new pre-pro into production, read this entire thread. I told them that since it now runs to 500 pages if printed out, that they should read it, discuss it, and then tell me again if the issue is easy to handle. Today they emailed me back and said they will show my mail to the company owner when he gets back next week.
KMO, if you were Emotiva and finalizing the new pre-pro coming in January, 2008, what would you do to be sure it can handle the LFE issue correctly? Allow the user to apply 0, 5, 10 or 15 dB of bass boost? Does that solve this whole issue?
When I read this thread for a couple of hours, I am very highly impressed by the brainpower displayed here. It is the number of possible combinations and permutations of players and receivers that makes for the thousands of words of discussion. The dedication and care that people are putting into testing combinations of equipment is stunning.
If you or anyone else could "clear" the Onkyo Tx-Nr905 or the Emotiva MMC-1 pre-pro it would help me immensely. Also, does the panny S-97 handle LFE right? Thanks for any answers.

Most likely that MMC-1 doesn't have HDMI 1.3 ports that the 905 would have. However the relevance of HDMI 1.3 has been scrutinized due to "HDMI 1.3 devices" like the PS3 not being able to pass the advanced audio using bitstream. Emotiva's a good company and you have an audition period where you can send it back if it has the LFE bug.

Pioneer VSX-74TXVi (VSX-AX4AVi): no firmware fix, as far as I know

This should be edited to show that there is now a firmware LFE fix for the 74txvi. It's been available since Feb/march. See the 74txvi thread for testimonials.

Note that I said "the successor to the MMC-1 coming in January, 2008". It WILL have HDMI 1.3 inputs. I'm thinking that if the current MMC-1 is handling LFE correctly, its successor probably will too. I'll buy the successor to get HDMI 1.3.
My second email to Emotiva re this thread was a long one. I suggested they study this thread thoroughly before starting production of the successor to the MMC-1. For all I know, their current equipment gets LFE right. I just want to be sure the new pre-pro gets it right because I may very well buy one. They seem to have fantastic products and jaw-dropping great prices.
[QUOTE=EWL5]Most likely that MMC-1 doesn't have HDMI 1.3 ports that the 905 would have.

Note that I said "the successor to the MMC-1 coming in January, 2008". It WILL have HDMI 1.3 inputs. I'm thinking that if the current MMC-1 is handling LFE correctly, its successor probably will too. I'll buy the successor to get HDMI 1.3.
My second email to Emotiva re this thread was a long one. I suggested they study this thread thoroughly before starting production of the successor to the MMC-1. For all I know, their current equipment gets LFE right. I just want to be sure the new pre-pro gets it right because I may very well buy one. They seem to have fantastic products and jaw-dropping great prices.
[QUOTE=EWL5]Most likely that MMC-1 doesn't have HDMI 1.3 ports that the 905 would have.

If you don't have HDMI 1.3, it's not necessarily the end of the world as this thread clearly states:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=789994

If this will be your first processor w/HDMI then waiting a year may not be a bad idea but it's not absolutely necessary.

Hey Everyone,
Just a quick question. Recently I did the 1.6 firmware update on my sony bdps-1 and noticed an improvement in bass response from the lfe channel. Previously the bass was non existent. My reciever was experiencing the lfe bug before the upgrade. The firmware update helped aliitle but the lfe sound doesn't even compare to the optical out using DD5. I was wondering does this problem with the lfe bug effect the 5.1 anolog inputs also? I think it was disscussed earlier in this thread. I can't change any settings when I am selected in 5.1 channel input on my reciever. For me to boost the lfe channel I have to exit out of the 5.1 channel mode and go to regular audio select. Then I can only boost the dts lfe to 10+ db. The regular lfe channel only goes to 0db. Will this fix the lfe bug? Why doesn't my sony bdps-1 have a firmware update to boost the lfe output to 0-10+db since the player does the decoding? My other question is if I can boost by lfe channel by +10db when using the 5.1 channel input on the reciever, what happens when I watch a regular movie that doesn't use the 5.1 anolog, instead it uses the optical section. Will this mean that I will have to decrease the recievers lfe inputs by +10 db everytime I watch a non 5.1 uncompressed movie? This would really be a pain in the rear. Oh yes, just some information, I have a 777ES reciever.

...lfe sound doesn't even compare to the optical out using DD5. I was wondering does this problem with the lfe bug effect the 5.1 anolog inputs also?...I can't change any settings when I am selected in 5.1 channel input on my reciever. For me to boost the lfe channel I have to exit out of the 5.1 channel mode and go to regular audio select....Why doesn't my sony bdps-1 have a firmware update to boost the lfe output to 0-10+db since the player does the decoding?...if I can boost by lfe channel by +10db when using the 5.1 channel input on the reciever, what happens when I watch a regular movie that doesn't use the 5.1 anolog, instead it uses the optical section. Will this mean that I will have to decrease the recievers lfe inputs by +10 db everytime I watch a non 5.1 uncompressed movie?...
To review (correct me if wrong), your receiver is the Sony STR-DA777ES, and player is Sony BDP-S1 (Blu-Ray player). Player is fairly new, receiver is circa 1999/2000 vintage. Player has HDMI and 5.1 ch analog out, receiver has optical input and 5.1 ch analog in.

Reviewing the owner's manuals, it appears the STR-DA777ES receiver allows NO output trim adjustment when in 5.1 ch analog mode. There's a signal path schematic in the owner's manual that shows the 5.1 analog inputs flowing straight through, bypassing everything, affected only by the final master volume.

Thus individual speaker level adjustment for 5.1 analog sources must be done by the player. IMO this is a fundamental design error. It's probably due to the vintage of the receiver, which was designed before SACD/DVD-A was finalized. Other multi-ch analog audio sources such as Blu-Ray weren't even dreamed of then.

However it also appears the BDP-S1 player also doesn't allow output trims for multi-ch analog (unless I missed it in the manual).

It appears the BDP-S1 assumes a more modern generation receiver which accepts HDMI input and does digital processing of the audio input, including bass management, equalization, etc.

Your receiver works fine for DD/DTS 5.1 inputs because they're digital, and the specs for those were stabilized before the receiver was designed.

The BDP-S1 cannot play SACD or DVD-A discs, but can play stereo CDs, DVD and Blu-Ray.

I assume your main interest is multichannel audio material from DVD, Blu-Ray, and High-Def broadcast/satellite. DVD and HD broadcast is no problem -- that's DD or DTS 5.1 which your receiver handles.

Not familiar with Blu-Ray audio options, but if (like DVD-A) it has a DD 5.1 compatibility track (for Blu-Ray material), just use that. If it has only multi-ch high-res audio, similar to multi-ch SACD, you're stuck.

I own a Sony ESP9ES Pre/Pro. It has the Bypass you described in the 777 except that I can not control the overall level of the 6 channels when I use the 6 Bypass inputs.. What is needed to make legacy equipment compatible with multichannel source devices is a 6 channel line level inexpensive volume control such as the $8,000.00 EDGE preamp. How about it anufacturers. There is a large market waiting for a $100.00 6 channel buffered volume control. Individual level controls would be welcome but not absolutely necessary.

Thanks for the input. I will either look into the pre amp option or a new reciever. That is just too bad because the STR-DA777 is a nice reciever and sounds pretty good in 5.1 DD. The PCM uncompressed sounds really good also except for the LFE channel. Thanks for the info, I now have a better understaning for the specs on my reciever. Could you give me the thread for the Tier rating for the recievers that are compatible with HDMI 1.3? Thanks Jon

I found a product on the internet. It is the Outlaw Audio Model 990. Do you think that this product could give me the flexibility to adjust levels by trimming, boosting, and delaying my 6 channel inputs on my reciver. In addition, do you think that this is a quality unit? Here is the Link to this product: http://hometheater.about.com/od/manufacturerslq/p/outlawmodel990.htm

Here is another model: http://www.gspr.com/outlaw/970-7075.html

Thanks for the input. I will either look into the pre amp option or a new reciever. That is just too bad because the STR-DA777 is a nice reciever and sounds pretty good in 5.1 DD. The PCM uncompressed sounds really good also except for the LFE channel. Thanks for the info, I now have a better understaning for the specs on my reciever. Could you give me the thread for the Tier rating for the recievers that are compatible with HDMI 1.3? Thanks Jon
You do have the player's speaker options set to small.... right?

OK, now I am getting annoyed again (just when I thought I had this stuff straight – relatively speaking). The A1 is not listed as a player that has issues with LFE/RB at the beginning of this thread, and yet there are a lot of reports of various BM problems. After extensive testing, here are my findings. Could someone please tell me where I am all wet here, or if I am not crazy….?!?

*******************************************
Assumption: If I calibrate the analogs using the DTS test tones on SD-DVE to 75dB/85dBC, and then check the TrueHD tones from HD-DVE (changing nothing else), they should also be 75dB/85dBC.

Reality: The TrueHD tones over analog clocks in at 75dB/80dBC when using BM, and the correct 75dB/85dBC when it is disabled.

*******************************************
Assumption: Over SPDIF, the raw bitstream is sent for the AVR to decode (advanced audio codecs downmixed to DTS), and apply bass management, right? The AVR will apply the same BM algorithms to any DTS source (SD or downmixed HD).

Reality: I get the same 5dB difference between legacy DTS and downmixed TrueHD (and this time, disabling the BM in the Tosh makes no difference – obviously). Why would the AVR handle legacy DTS correctly, and the downmixed TrueHD differently? I mean, they are both DTS streams, right? I can see two possibilities: Either the Tosh is messing up the LFE levels over SPDIF, or it is doing something non-standard and the AVR is misinterpreting the stream.
*******************************************

Conclusion: Since the speaker trims are kept constant and the satellites are all spot on, the discrepancy is limited to LFE: The TrueHD-derived LFE is 5dB cold. And yet, if I disable BM in the Tosh, I get the 5dB back….?!? That sure looks like the 5dB penalty due to BM, but why is it only hitting the TrueHD and not the legacy DTS?

I am using an HD-A1 through a Denon AVR-2105, if that makes a difference (although, the analogs are straight pass-throughs, so what I am seeing is exactly what is sent from the Tosh). Now, for the SPDIF I can see how the Denon might not be boosting the LFE sufficiently (but again, why is that only the case for downmixed TrueHD/DD+) and not legacy DTS)….????

My results are completely reproducible, and given that the only variable is the Tosh, makes it the only suspect in my eyes.

Please help!!!!!!!!!!

Is this thread dead on purpose, or has it just been superseded by other threads?

One thing that's been unclear to me is regarding player output with bass management, where the first post specifies:

SW(out) = Lower5dB(LFE + Lower10dB(Redirected bass)) = Lower5dB(LFE) + Lower15dB(Redirected bass)

with the AVR then expected to boost the SW(in) by 15dB before sending it on to the sub.

Two questions. First, in the above equation, am I correct to assume that
Lower5dB(LFE) actually means "LFE that's already lowered by 10dB in the mixing stage, lowered a further 5dB by the player"? This is the only way that a 15dB compensation in the AVR makes sense to me.

Second, I get that the redirected bass must be lowered too, if for nothing else than to compensate for the boost that the SW input will get in the AVR. What I don't fully get is why it's lowered 15dB instead of 10 dB, and why the LFE is lowered further at all (it's already down 10dB). Why the extra 5 dB of trim (Dolby specified)? I know this has to do with headroom of the channel, but perhaps someone can explain in more detail.

I apologize if this has been asked before. - I have a Sony CE775 surround player which has a control permitting selection for internal processing ("ON" or "OFF"). The internal processing includes large and small speaker settings, sub or no sub, etc. The unit has one "subwoofer" output, and no LFE output. Does the above discussion mean that, with internal processsing ON, the LFE and normal subwoofer bass are appropriately mixed , with LFE level adjusted appropriately, and both output via the subwoofer output? Alternatively, with the internal processing "OFF," what's coming out at the subwoofer output? - Only the LFE?

I'm considering getting one of the HDMI 1.2+ receivers, and the Oppo player with HDMI output. Am I correct that with this combination, all my problems re bass management will be over, and that the AVR (e.g., the Onkyo 905) will make all necessary adjustments of LFE and subwoofer output? Also, would the internal Audessey EQ system work with SACD multi-channel input via HDMI 1.2+? (I also have a Sony ES DVD player with stereo SACD. Am I correct in assuming that unit should be connected via analog interconnects to the stereo inputs of the AVR?)

Thanks,
Jim

SW analogue output from players
Okay, what level should the subwoofer output be? If it were just the LFE track, then you'd expect it, as discussed above, to be 10dB lower than the other channels to fit the 10dB higher maximum LFE output.

But if the player is performing bass management, then the subwoofer output also has to contain redirected bass; this extra signal could push the signal back above its nominal limit. To prevent overloading their output, or the receiver's input, players with bass management conventionally lower the SW output by a further 5dB. (This 5dB value is specified by Dolby, see references). Sometimes this 5dB drop switches in and out depending on whether bass management is being performed (ie if any speakers are set to SMALL).

The final SW output will typically be:

SW = LFE
or:

SW = Lower5dB(LFE + Lower10dB(Redirected bass)) = Lower5dB(LFE) + Lower15dB(Redirected bass)
So, in those two cases the SW output from the player will be respectively 10dB or 15dB lower than the other channels. A receiver should offer the ability to specifically boost the SW input on its multichannel analogue interface to compensate.



I have a HK avr335 which has analogue inputs but does not have the SW boost option like some other receivers. It has the ability to boost or attenuate the SW channel by 10db in the channel setup menu. Would this be the same as SW boost option? Since the SW boost option is done at the receiver to the analog signal(after bass management performed in the player) , than isn't boosting the SW channel in the HK the same?

I've been thinking about this....with all the receivers(green receivers?) that apply the SW boost at the analog-in. Isn't this also boosting all the redirected bass? Wouldn't the boost need to be added to LFE in the process of decoding the LFE channel to be correct before it adds it to the redirected bass and than in the end at the analog out of the player? Seems like the player should perform the boost?



Are all the 'green' receivers performing the bass management in the last stage before it is heard?

Can anyone tell me if the sony str-dg1000 suffers from the hdmi lfe bug or not??

I think I am having the SW/LFE problem discussed in this thread. I am using the early parts of Lord of the Rings, Fellowship of the Ring as a test case. This has lots of base and a DTS 6.1 soundtrack which I am using for this test.

The BD-P1200 has an option for bitstream vs. PCM output. When I set the player to bitstream I believe I am getting all the base/LFE that is on the disk.

When I switch the player to PCM output the base almost completely disappears and I cannot find any combination of options in the Denon receiver to get it back.

The Denon receiver has settings for LFE level (from -10 to 0). This is set to 0db for both DTS and PCM inputs. Although the 2808CI receiver is not specifically listed in the first post in this thread all the other Denons it does list are "green", so I strongly suspect that the one I have is doing the right thing and that the Samsung BD player is losing the LFE. If I understand things correctly, the BD-P1200 player's DTS decoder should decode the DTS and pass it to the receiver as PCM (given that I have set the player's output to PCM).

Does anyone else have any experience with either or both of these devices? If so can you shed any light on my situation?

P.S. Further details:
All connections are via HDMI.
All speakers are "small".
The Denon's auto-setup for speaker level, balance and equalization has been carefully executed.

P.P.S. I m interested in getting the player's PCM output to work since Samsung told me it might help with lip-sync problems. (There happens to be no such problem with the LOTR disks.)

P.S. Further details:
All connections are via HDMI.
All speakers are "small".
The Denon's auto-setup for speaker level, balance and equalization has been carefully executed.

Shouldn't your speakers be set to large on the Samsung, and small on your receiver?

Shouldn't your speakers be set to large on the Samsung, and small on your receiver?

The speaker settings on the Samsung are only for analog output and I am all HDMI.

The speaker settings on the Samsung are only for analog output and I am all HDMI.

I'd be surprised if that was the case. It seems that in most players the PCM is where the bass management takes place, whether it goes out via analog or out via HDMI. On my Oppo (and it is also true of the XA2), I need to set all speakers to large, subwoofer on, and distances to 0 before I get correct PCM output through HDMI.

Try it - it can't hurt...

I'd be surprised if that was the case. [P1200 speaker set-up is for analog only.] It seems that in most players the PCM is where the bass management takes place, whether it goes out via analog or out via HDMI. On my Oppo (and it is also true of the XA2), I need to set all speakers to large, subwoofer on, and distances to 0 before I get correct PCM output through HDMI.

Try it - it can't hurt...

You are right. Setting the speakers to large in the Samsung BD-P2100 worked. PCM output now includes the base.

One thing that led me astray was that when I first got the P1200, before the latest firmware update, it wouldn't let me play test sounds unless I had selected analog output (not HDMI). My thinking was that if it wouldn't play its test sound via HDMI it surely didn't matter how I had the speakers configured. I was surprised that it now worked.

Need to experiment a little further:
1) Bitstream DTS decoded by Denon AVR 2808CI still seems to have more base than DTS via PCM from the P1200 but it could be that in my quick trial I didn't level-match properly. I do remember that with my older systems (Yamaha DVD and Receiver) the DVD player did a better job of DTS decoding than the receiver did. Here it might be the other way around.
2) Need to check if there is any effect of specifying LFE or not in the P1200. I did notice that the P1200's test sound via the LFE speaker was very faint.

rcp

Is there a current list of "good" receivers? Do any of these have the LFE issue as described in the first post:

Yamaha RX-V1800
Yamaha RX-V3800
Onkyo TX-SR705
Onkyo TX-SR805
Onkyo TX-SR875
Pioneer VSX-94TXH

Quoted from the original posting: "It is only when we try to connect amplifiers to external decoders that things can go wrong. Many receivers do not offer the necessary boost for LFE coming in from an external decoder."

So does this mean if my Blu Ray (Panny BD30) player sends bitstream audio via HDMI to be decoded by my Onkyo 605 receiver, there is no problem with the LFE level since the receiver is doing the decoding?

Chances are it's OK, if the input is really a bitstream, and not PCM.

Trying to get my new sub right. Also see the 4-5 post after my intial post too.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=12398899#post12398899

UPDATE: I've played around with the settings and found a happy point. See the linked thread for my settings.

I just found out how to increase the multi channel sub in by +10db on the Pioneer VSX 1016. With the receiver in stand by, press and hold standby/on and SB ch processing on the front panel and this will switch the SW IN between +10db and 0 db(default). So anyone who has the 1016, it sounds like your LFE issue's should be solved if your using the multi channel in's.

Not if bass management is used. For that, the LFE has to be boosted separately before it is combined with bass from other channels.

Yep, boosting the entire SW channel is not the same as boosting just the LFE part of the SW channel and will make all redirected bass from the other channels 10dB too high. (3x too high).

With regards to the Onkyo TX-NR1000, TX-NR5000E, Integra DTR-10.5 and Integra Research RDC-7.1, LFE handling seems highly dependant on the firmware used, all four of these models use identical firmware and the same audio processing.

I am using Master version 2.0 which is the newest AFAIK. There is no adjustment for Analogue Multichannel byt LFE levels are identical to SPDIF and ILink when using DD5.1 so I assume it is done correctly. DSD, DVD-A(PCM), AAC, DTS and DD all have seperate settings per input but these are different to the older fimrwares, they are -20DB, -10DB, 0DB and Infinity. 0DB is the default and correct for all DD and DTS sources it seems. I dont have the required test discs for SACD or DVD-A.

Yep, boosting the entire SW channel is not the same as boosting just the LFE part of the SW channel and will make all redirected bass from the other channels 10dB too high. (3x too high).

...but if you set Speakers to small and Sub to "Yes" not "Plus" then only the LFE portion will go to the Sub won't it ?:confused:Isn't this the preferred method ?

Scott................

Not quite. The "LFE" is content put in the disc's .1 channel, in the mixing studio. If you set speakers to 'Large', only the LFE is output to the subwoofer. Meanwhile, any bass that was mixed to the front left/center/right or surrounds in the studios, stays in those channels and goes to those speakers. But if you set the speakers to 'Small', the LFE plus the bass from the 'small' loudspeakers, is blended together and output to the subwoofer.

O.K. I read the OP and sort of understand the principles, but I get lost on the specifics. I wonder if one of you who understands this better than I could give me some advice for my new Christmas setup.

Currently I have tired 15 year old Advent Prodegy fronts and a 10 year old Infinity 8" sub, all of which I am replacing with Polk Audio RTi8s and a Polk Audio PSW12.

I have a Yamaha RX-V750 which can control the SW output by db or test tone, plus or minus. It can also control the LFE output from 0db downwards. I have the speakers now set to "small" and the sub setting to "subwoofer only"

Now I have to keep the volume on the sub pretty low, even if I have the sub setting on the receiver to 0db as it gets boomy pretty fast--perhaps because it isn't such a good sub, perhaps because it is downfiring onto a hardwood floor, perhaps both reasons. Setting the test tones to what sounds equal to the front and center speakers is invariably too much bass in general and I have to lower it, whether or the receiver or on the sub.

Anyhow, though I realize it is up to me to determine my final settings, I am a bit confused about where I should start. I have no calubration discs. I judge everthing by what tv or dvd or hd sounds like, whether the bass sounds balanced, overpowering, or lacking.

The new sub is not downfiring, which hopefully is good. The new speakers are much larger, but does that mean I should set them to large?

1. Would setting the subs volume control to about 50% be a good place to start?

2. Should I set the new fronts to large?

3. Should I set the sub setting to "both", allowing the fronts to handled any lows they can? Or should I still keep it on "Sub only"?

4. Should I leave the LFE to 0db and presume that is correct? (all audio is transmitted to the receiver by either toslink or coax from DTV, DVD, and HD DVD) How would I know if that needs separate adjustment?

Just thought it would be nice to know I am headed in the right direction for the new stuff. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.

..... I have the speakers now set to "small" and the sub setting to "subwoofer only"

Now I have to keep the volume on the sub pretty low, even if I have the sub setting on the receiver to 0db as it gets boomy pretty fast ......

Setting the test tones to what sounds equal to the front and center speakers is invariably too much bass in general and I have to lower it, whether or the receiver or on the sub.


I think the first thing you should do is get a Radio Shack or similar Sound Pressure Level (SPL) meter to more accurately set the volume of the sub relative to the main speakers. You can't set the sub volume accurately "by ear". The human ear is much less sensitive to deep bass noise below 80 Hz produced by the sub, than to higher frequency noise produced by the main speakers (when the receiver test tones are run). Therefore, you will set the sub much too loud if you try to set the levels by listening to the test tones.

Place the SPL meter near the listening position and pointing upward. Reading an SPL meter while running the test tones is the best method for setting all the speaker levels.

O.K. I read the OP and sort of understand the principles, but I get lost on the specifics. I wonder if one of you who understands this better than I could give me some advice for my new Christmas setup.

Currently I have tired 15 year old Advent Prodegy fronts and a 10 year old Infinity 8" sub, all of which I am replacing with Polk Audio RTi8s and a Polk Audio PSW12.

I have a Yamaha RX-V750 which can control the SW output by db or test tone, plus or minus. It can also control the LFE output from 0db downwards. I have the speakers now set to "small" and the sub setting to "subwoofer only"

Now I have to keep the volume on the sub pretty low, even if I have the sub setting on the receiver to 0db as it gets boomy pretty fast--perhaps because it isn't such a good sub, perhaps because it is downfiring onto a hardwood floor, perhaps both reasons. Setting the test tones to what sounds equal to the front and center speakers is invariably too much bass in general and I have to lower it, whether or the receiver or on the sub.

Anyhow, though I realize it is up to me to determine my final settings, I am a bit confused about where I should start. I have no calubration discs. I judge everthing by what tv or dvd or hd sounds like, whether the bass sounds balanced, overpowering, or lacking.

The new sub is not downfiring, which hopefully is good. The new speakers are much larger, but does that mean I should set them to large?

1. Would setting the subs volume control to about 50% be a good place to start?

2. Should I set the new fronts to large?

3. Should I set the sub setting to "both", allowing the fronts to handled any lows they can? Or should I still keep it on "Sub only"?

4. Should I leave the LFE to 0db and presume that is correct? (all audio is transmitted to the receiver by either toslink or coax from DTV, DVD, and HD DVD) How would I know if that needs separate adjustment?

Just thought it would be nice to know I am headed in the right direction for the new stuff. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.

I went through a similar tweak. See my findings at this link (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=12398899#post12398899).

I think the first thing you should do is get a Radio Shack or similar Sound Pressure Level (SPL) meter

Believe it or not, I have a 30 year old Radio Shack Sound Pressure level around somewhere. It's just been through 5 moves and is hiding somewhere. Problem is, I found out years ago that the SPL doesn't always yield satisfying results even though it theoritically should. Maybe it just me. Thanks for the thought, I should really try to find it just to see what's what.

I went through a similar tweak. See my findings at this link (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=12398899#post12398899).

Thanks for the reference. In the end, I think the overall level of bass is the easiest to arbitrarily change according to your own personal taste. Whether or not it is "correct", who cares. I was more curious about the relationship between LFE and overall bass. I will study that thread.

Believe it or not, I have a 30 year old Radio Shack Sound Pressure level around somewhere. It's just been through 5 moves and is hiding somewhere. Problem is, I found out years ago that the SPL doesn't always yield satisfying results even though it theoritically should. Maybe it just me. Thanks for the thought, I should really try to find it just to see what's what.

More thoughts on setting the subwoofer level and the nature of hearing ... one of the odd things is that the "volume control" on the human hearing system has an uneven frequency response. If you start by setting the volume of a source to "reference level" (for movies, that should mean the SPL at the listening seat in our home theater is the same as if we were in a properly set up commercial theater), and then turn the volume down (many people prefer to listen below "reference level" at home), our hearing response to the deep bass decreases more rapidly than our response to the midrange. i.e. the deep bass quickly "gets too soft" when we turn the volume down, not because of any flaw in the AV electronics but because of the nature of our hearing.

To compensate for this perceptual loss of deep bass at volumes below reference level, many listeners prefer to boost the deep bass. However, if you do that by turning up the SW volume, you will get a "step" in the frequency response at the crossover frequency. It would be better to apply a smooth rise to the frequency response below approximately 100 Hz, and avoid the "step". However, most bass tone controls on AV receivers aren't flexible enough to only apply a smooth rise below 100 Hz (they boost the bass over too wide a range).

Not quite. The "LFE" is content put in the disc's .1 channel, in the mixing studio. If you set speakers to 'Large', only the LFE is output to the subwoofer. Meanwhile, any bass that was mixed to the front left/center/right or surrounds in the studios, stays in those channels and goes to those speakers. But if you set the speakers to 'Small', the LFE plus the bass from the 'small' loudspeakers, is blended together and output to the subwoofer.

You are , of course , correct . My bad . I assume you've had the upgrade done on your '74 ?( I'm still waiting ) Had you noticed any previous problems with the "Auto" selector for Audio ? I've changed the Audio to Optical from HDMI in my PS3 but the '74 will lock onto HDMI instead of Digital . Video is HDMI switched through the '74 . Do you know if that is still a problem after the update ? I can change it manually each time .

Scott...............:confused:

You are , of course , correct . My bad . I assume you've had the upgrade done on your '74 ?( I'm still waiting )


I haven't. I don't have an HD or Blu-Ray player, so the only issue is with DVD-A and SACD-->PCM, and for these I just boost the bass in my Oppo 970HD player first, before the AVR does bass management.


Had you noticed any previous problems with the "Auto" selector for Audio ? I've changed the Audio to Optical from HDMI in my PS3 but the '74 will lock onto HDMI instead of Digital . Video is HDMI switched through the '74 . Do you know if that is still a problem after the update ? I can change it manually each time .


All my surround audio is via HDMI, while stereo is via Optical, and I've had no problems.

Hello mates, Pioneer VSX-82TXS owner here. Lub this receiver. But I recently upgraded my dvd player to HD-DVD. And I got some 1.3 hdmi cables. My receiver is not 1.3.

Also, I am missing some low end punch.


This thread is amazing (Pioneer VSX-84TXSi/VSX-82TXSi(VSX-AX4ASi/VSX-AX2ASi): latest USA firmware apparently fixes - with this, +10dB analogue SW boost also affects HDMI. New units may not have this firmware)

Found this : http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PU...+A+V+Receivers
Firmware avail.

But I wonder.... I bought my receiver in early summer 2006. HDMI video and video switching is flawless. Only issue is LFE. Should I get the firmware update? Or is it there already, and I need to make a setting change (doubt this).

Hello mates, Pioneer VSX-82TXS owner here. Lub this receiver. But I recently upgraded my dvd player to HD-DVD. And I got some 1.3 hdmi cables. My receiver is not 1.3.

Also, I am missing some low end punch.


This thread is amazing (Pioneer VSX-84TXSi/VSX-82TXSi(VSX-AX4ASi/VSX-AX2ASi): latest USA firmware apparently fixes - with this, +10dB analogue SW boost also affects HDMI. New units may not have this firmware)

Found this : http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PU...+A+V+Receivers
Firmware avail.

But I wonder.... I bought my receiver in early summer 2006. HDMI video and video switching is flawless. Only issue is LFE. Should I get the firmware update? Or is it there already, and I need to make a setting change (doubt this).

Sounds like you need the firmware update. Call Pioneer for the closest compatible service center. With any luck, it should be driving distance. Here is my take on the before/after update concerning watching HD movies on the Pioneer VSX-84TXSi:

Before firmware: 6/10 (legacy DD/DTS gets real old after a while)
After firmware: 9/10 (hello TrueHD, DD+, DTS-HD MA core!)

I couldn't watch HD movies with lossless tracks as there was absolutely no impact in the LFE and brought me back into reality instead of immersing me.

Sounds like you need the firmware update. Call Pioneer for the closest compatible service center. With any luck, it should be driving distance. Here is my take on the before/after update concerning watching HD movies on the Pioneer VSX-84TXSi:

Before firmware: 6/10 (legacy DD/DTS gets real old after a while)
After firmware: 9/10 (hello TrueHD, DD+, DTS-HD MA core!)

I couldn't watch HD movies with lossless tracks as there was absolutely no impact in the LFE and brought me back into reality instead of immersing me.



6/10 + 9/10 ???



1. power off receiver.
2. hold down the power button + standard surround buttons at the same time.
3. ignore the first series of info. as per pioneer.
4. write down the second series of info. this is the pertinent info.

My reciever was purchased in late March 2007!
I had no issues with hdmi or hdmi switching.
However, since adding a HD-DVD player, my LFE if missing in action.

My 2nd series of coding was: D1.003 H.005

6/10 + 9/10 ???



1. power off receiver.
2. hold down the power button + standard surround buttons at the same time.
3. ignore the first series of info. as per pioneer.
4. write down the second series of info. this is the pertinent info.

My reciever was purchased in late March 2007!
I had no issues with hdmi or hdmi switching.
However, since adding a HD-DVD player, my LFE if missing in action.

My 2nd series of coding was: D1.003 H.005

RyanA3, you might be better off following this thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=787551

The 82's latest firmware should be:

M1.002 F0.503
D1.003 H1.005
HOST**
f1.004 s1.001

Check your 82 firmware again.

6/10 = 6 out of 10 rating before firmware
9/10 = 9 out of 10 rating after firmware

RyanA3, you might be better off following this thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=787551

The 82's latest firmware should be:

M1.002 F0.503
D1.003 H1.005
HOST**
f1.004 s1.001

Check your 82 firmware again.

6/10 = 6 out of 10 rating before firmware
9/10 = 9 out of 10 rating after firmware


I hope some of the "pioneers" of this thread/issue/fix are still with us... so they can help the n00bs through??????????


I am about to unwire my receiver and drive 90 minutes.
Are you sure I don't need the LFE update.
My firmware is:

M1.002 F0.503
D1.003 H1.005
F1.004 S1.001

Which one of these is applicable to the LFE issue with hddvd/hdmi.
My hdmi (video portion) is ok.

If it's ok firmware. What do I need to do to fix the issue with the receiver.
I don't hear any sub since connecting an hddvd player.

I hope some of the "pioneers" of this thread/issue/fix are still with us... so they can help the n00bs through??????????


I am about to unwire my receiver and drive 90 minutes.
Are you sure I don't need the LFE update.
My firmware is:

M1.002 F0.503
D1.003 H1.005
F1.004 S1.001

Which one of these is applicable to the LFE issue with hddvd/hdmi.
My hdmi (video portion) is ok.

If it's ok firmware. What do I need to do to fix the issue with the receiver.
I don't hear any sub since connecting an hddvd player.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=12677216#post12677216

As you may recall I did some tests a week or so ago with a Yamaha RX-V1700 and concluded that it did not seem to have the LFE issue. I now have a Yamaha HTR-6090 which I'll be testing over the next couple of days for the LFE issue. Since the 6090 is very similar to the 1700 I'm hopeful it'll test out ok. Will post my results back here shortly.


Did you ever run tests on the 6090 and see if it has the drop out problem? I just recently acquired a 6090 and fell that the Bass isnt as strong when using my Samsung 1400 and Toshiba A2 which are both sending signals over as PCM

Curious what else you found out?

Paul

Got my Pioneer VSX-74TXVi AVR upgraded today .

Latest firmware is now...

M1.015 F0.503
D1.013 H1.022
Host 28
F1.013 S1.011

Thanks to all who started the "heads-up" on this problem.

Scott.........................:)

I have an 84txsi with the firmware that lets you manaul add +10db. The problem is it doesn't appear to only apply to the LFE channel. All bass output is boosted, even the test tones, so MCACC detects the bass as 10db too high and calibrates it out.

Is their a firmware release that fixes the issue entirely, or is the front panel boost workaround as good as it gets?

Anyone know if the new 9 series has the problem as well? i.e. VSX-94TX

Sorry for such a basic question, but is it normal for the LFE brackets on my Pioneer VSX-82 to blink on and off during a program on HDMI connection?...and could a fault in the process result in occasional sound cuts of a fration of a second?? Having trouble finding the source of the cutting sound...:confused:

And didn't have time to read all 13 pages of posts here...sorry, thanks for the input...

I'm quite new to this setup and don't have much knowledge so far...:rolleyes:

Sorry for such a basic question, but is it normal for the LFE brackets on my Pioneer VSX-82 to blink on and off during a program on HDMI connection?...and could a fault in the process result in occasional sound cuts of a fration of a second?? Having trouble finding the source of the cutting sound...:confused:

And didn't have time to read all 13 pages of posts here...sorry, thanks for the input...

I'm quite new to this setup and don't have much knowledge so far...:rolleyes:

The brackets will flash when there is LFE or .1 information on the disk being played . This is quite normal . Some disks have very little LFE info and others are loaded .

When you say the sound cuts out , what exactly are you referring to ? All channels , Sub only ...? Give us a few more details . You may have to give us most of the Setup Parameters in the Pio Menu to give us an idea what's happening .

Scott.................:)

I have an 84txsi with the firmware that lets you manaul add +10db. The problem is it doesn't appear to only apply to the LFE channel. All bass output is boosted, even the test tones, so MCACC detects the bass as 10db too high and calibrates it out.

Is their a firmware release that fixes the issue entirely, or is the front panel boost workaround as good as it gets?

Anyone know if the new 9 series has the problem as well? i.e. VSX-94TX

Please read page 1 of this Thread . Your model is listed as one that has this problem and identifies the need for a firmware upgrade . Pioneer is doing this upgrade for free . Just contact them and arrange it .

Scott.................:)

from the original post:


Okay, what level should the subwoofer output be? If it were just the LFE track, then you'd expect it, as discussed above, to be 10dB lower than the other channels to fit the 10dB higher maximum LFE output.

But if the player is performing bass management, then the subwoofer output also has to contain redirected bass; this extra signal could push the signal back above its nominal limit. To prevent overloading their output, or the receiver's input, players with bass management conventionally lower the SW output by a further 5dB. (This 5dB value is specified by Dolby, see references). Sometimes this 5dB drop switches in and out depending on whether bass management is being performed (ie if any speakers are set to SMALL).

The final SW output will typically be:

SW = LFE
or:

SW = Lower5dB(LFE + Lower10dB(Redirected bass)) = Lower5dB(LFE) + Lower15dB(Redirected bass)
So, in those two cases the SW output from the player will be respectively 10dB or 15dB lower than the other channels. A receiver should offer the ability to specifically boost the SW input on its multichannel analogue interface to compensate.


I have a Toshiba HD-A1, and I am using 5.1 analog outputs. I have my speakers set to small in the player, as I cannot change this in my receiver (HK AVR-7000) for 5.1 analog inputs.

First, does the player correctly mix the redirected bass and the LFE bass? If not, I am screwed right there.

Also, do I adjust the SW by 10dB in the receiver or by 15dB?

I am also interested in getting a Blu-Ray player, probably the Panasonic BD50 when it is available. I know this player is not out yet, but what about the BD30? Does that mix the redirected bass and LFE bass correctly, and does it output -15 or -10dB?

... what about the BD30? Does that mix the redirected bass and LFE bass correctly, and does it output -15 or -10dB?AFAIK the BD30 doesn't decode itself, it only bitstreams to the receiver/amp.

I'm back, at last.

I finally bought a player+receiver - the Denon AVR-4308 and DVD-3930.

Just found one interesting nugget about the AVR-4308 - it isn't quite right out of the box. I'm using Denon Link, and when passing multichannel sources digitally, the AVR lets you select your LFE level, from 0dB (ie 10dB boost) to -10dB (ie equal level) in the Parameter/Audio/Sound Parameters menu.

But it defaults to 0dB for DSD, which is wrong. If passing SACD over Denon Link, you should set LFE to -10dB. Fortunately, it seems to remember the LFE level on a per-input-type basis, so you can set it on DSD "MULTI CH IN" and "DSD MULTI DIRECT" then forget it. (It seems to distinguish between DSD and PCM "MULTI CH IN" for remembering parameters, fortunately, even though they have the same name).

I found a useful LFE cancellation test to check on Pentatone's "Stay in Tune with Pentatone" SACD - if bass management is on with small speakers, then the 60Hz test on track 36 serves as a concrete test of the LFE level relative to mains, without the subwoofer level mattering (because everything is coming out of the subwoofer - it's just checking that the main signal cancels the LFE signal).

The DVD-3930 gives perfect cancellation over its multichannel output, but with Denon Link you have to go to -10dB on the AVR.

This suggests that the DVD-3930 outputs the SACD DSD raw over Denon Link, and thus the receiver needs to compensate for equal-level LFE. I wonder what the DSD-over-HDMI folk are doing. I suspect they're the same, so the same DSD-specific handling would be needed.

1) I thought I read that the LFE track is already recorded
10db louder than the other channels.
So if I just play the disc and if the receiver isnt doing any
boost and if I am not changing the subwoofer level, does it
mean that the LFE is playing 10 db louder than the rest.

or

2) is it true that the LFE is not recorded 10db louder so
to make it play louder I have to boost the LFE on my
receiver either using the LFE level control or the
subwoofer level control or both.


If 2) is correct and if there are AVR's that provide both
LFE level control and subwoofer level control, then why
are people asking for the AVR to apply the 10db boost
by default.


I know there is a lot of stuff already. I tried reading all the
articles but I am having a hard time understanding. I guess
if I clear my misconception and read further I may understand
better.

1) I thought I read that the LFE track is already recorded
10db louder than the other channels.
So if I just play the disc and if the receiver isnt doing any
boost and if I am not changing the subwoofer level, does it
mean that the LFE is playing 10 db louder than the rest.

or

2) is it true that the LFE is not recorded 10db louder so
to make it play louder I have to boost the LFE on my
receiver either using the LFE level control or the
subwoofer level control or both.


If 2) is correct and if there are AVR's that provide both
LFE level control and subwoofer level control, then why
are people asking for the AVR to apply the 10db boost
by default.


I know there is a lot of stuff already. I tried reading all the
articles but I am having a hard time understanding. I guess
if I clear my misconception and read further I may understand
better.

Its the other way around.... LFE is recorded 10db LOW and needs to be boosted in the amp. Since the intention is that the SW be capable of going 10db louder than the other channels... and that LFE is transmitted over the same type of 'transport' (PCM or analog)... it needs to be recorded 10db low so that it wont overload the transport when it reaches full output levels. A 10db boost in the amp then restores the level. Note that if you have any speakers set to small... it needs 15db cut and boost instead of 10db. This is because you are adding even more bass info into SW channel and have to reduce it further to keep it from overloading at full output.

If you are sending bitstream to the receiver... all should be fine. PCM is a bit more iffy but many if not most/all receivers can apply various boosts to LFE/SW to compensate. Analog is a mixed bag.... recent receivers seem to have the capability but older ones dont.

Its the other way around.... LFE is recorded 10db LOW and needs to be boosted in the amp. Since the intention is that the SW be capable of going 10db louder than the other channels... and that LFE is transmitted over the same type of 'transport' (PCM or analog)... it needs to be recorded 10db low so that it wont overload the transport when it reaches full output levels. A 10db boost in the amp then restores the level. Note that if you have any speakers set to small... it needs 15db cut and boost instead of 10db. This is because you are adding even more bass info into SW channel and have to reduce it further to keep it from overloading at full output.

If you are sending bitstream to the receiver... all should be fine. PCM is a bit more iffy but many if not most/all receivers can apply various boosts to LFE/SW to compensate. Analog is a mixed bag.... recent receivers seem to have the capability but older ones dont.

Thanks for the clarification.

I was wondering why record it 10db low and then boost it 10db
Instead if it was recorded at the same level as other channels,
then there wouldnt be any need to boost it right?
So record it at the same level as other channels and then if
the user wants to hear it louder he/she can increase the
sub woofer level.

Thanks for the clarification.

I was wondering why record it 10db low and then boost it 10db
Instead if it was recorded at the same level as other channels,
then there wouldnt be any need to boost it right?
So record it at the same level as other channels and then if
the user wants to hear it louder he/she can increase the
sub woofer level.

Its recorded low for a good reason. LFE is 'designed' to play 10db louder than the 5 other channels. All of the channels are passed over the same type or interconnect... 1v capable analog input/output or x bit PCM. If it (LFE/SW) was recorded without the 10db cut... it would reach maximum 'voltage' or PCM value 10db before the others and 'clip' before the other channels reach maximum. The 10db cut insures that all 6 (5.1) reach maximum voltage or PCM value at their maximum volume level. The boost in the amp restores the intention that the sub be 10db louder than the other channels.

Its recorded low for a good reason. LFE is 'designed' to play 10db louder than the 5 other channels. All of the channels are passed over the same type or interconnect... 1v capable analog input/output or x bit PCM. If it (LFE/SW) was recorded without the 10db cut... it would reach maximum 'voltage' or PCM value 10db before the others and 'clip' before the other channels reach maximum. The 10db cut insures that all 6 (5.1) reach maximum voltage or PCM value at their maximum volume level. The boost in the amp restores the intention that the sub be 10db louder than the other channels.

sorry I still have trouble comprehending it.

Why design something to play louder and deal with the consequences.
What is the main idea behind designing something to play louder, just
so that it is more BANG.

Why cant just design everything to play at the same level then
there is no hassle.

If I am not using LFE at all and set my fronts as LARGE and
send bass to FRONT, then does it mean that the fronts will
be louder by 10db.

So, to increase the impact, they added an extra channel, dedicated to low frequency effects, to be sent to a dedicated subwoofer. And this channel was calibrated to play 10dB louder than the rest - it could output 115dB SPL of energy. And 10dB difference is quite a lot - it means a signal over 3 times the amplitude.

Calibration
This 10dB boost is achieved by calibration in the monitoring amplifiers at the studio; a full-scale LFE signal on the tape is set up to play 10dB louder than a full-scale signal on any other channel. The cost is increased noise - the channel has been turned up, so the general hiss and noise on the magnetic recording will also be 10dB louder. But this is not too much of a problem, as all sounds above 150Hz are filtered out anyway on playback. The channel is only handling low frequencies.

That is from the first post

If I understand that correctly, the LFE has been turned up in the recording
by 10db not turned down by 10db right? Then why boost it again by
another 10db.

Sorry for being slow. If it has already been recorded 10db louder
why should it have to be boosted by 10db while play back.
At one point the post says the LFE is recorded
10db higher in the studio and then later is says it is recorded 10db
too low. I just dont get it!

Why cant just design everything to play at the same level then
there is no hassle.
Because of the real world. :)

Movie theater sound is recorded at 16 bits. If you made all the channels the same level, you've got a choice:

1. Reduce the total bass of the LFE so it's not as loud as the combination of the other channels.

2. Reduce all the other channels by 10 dB so they don't play as loud.

Neither of these is a very good idea. Option 1 does not give loud enough LFE bass. Option 2 does not give loud enough sound all around. Hence the extra complication of recording the LFE channel low.

It is a given that this 10 dB LFE boost stuff should be hidden from the home user, and happen transparently and automatically.

Regards,
Terry

one more question.

If LFE is recorder 10db too low, then how does booting it
by 10db on the receiver make it play 10db louder. Shouldnt that make it
the same level as the rest. i.e -10db + 10db = 0 same level as
the rest?

Because of the real world. :)

Movie theater sound is recorded at 16 bits. If you made all the channels the same level, you've got a choice:

1. Reduce the total bass of the LFE so it's not as loud as the combination of the other channels.

2. Reduce all the other channels by 10 dB so they don't play as loud.

Neither of these is a very good idea. Option 1 does not give loud enough LFE bass. Option 2 does not give loud enough sound all around. Hence the extra complication of recording the LFE channel low.

It is a given that this 10 dB LFE boost stuff should be hidden from the home user, and happen transparently and automatically.

Regards,
Terry

Why not just leave LFE at the same level as other channels.
What prevents this from doing so.

If I understand the home theater hi-fi article correctly, the main
reason for adding LFE and making it 10db louder was to make
things (explosions etc.) sound louder with a big bang. It doesnt
give any other real world reasons. It also doesnt give the basis
for this 10db. Why not 8db or 5db. May be 5db or 8db is not
lou enough.

I could send full range to other channels and still send LFE alone to the
sub. So if all channels are recorded at the same level, then the
LFE should not sound louder.

The issue is only when other speakers cant handle the bass in their channels.
Then the bass from all channels will have to be redirected to LFE and then
the LFE gets louder. But the basis for 10db doesnt seem to be this reason

If the bass from all channels are sent to LFE then it may need more than
10db cut to make the LFE sound at the same level right?

I know everyone here has some understanding of the LFE issue so
no one asks the basic questions. I havent been able to comprehend this
10db thing. So I am just having a hard time understanding this

So, to increase the impact, they added an extra channel, dedicated to low frequency effects, to be sent to a dedicated subwoofer. And this channel was calibrated to play 10dB louder than the rest - it could output 115dB SPL of energy. And 10dB difference is quite a lot - it means a signal over 3 times the amplitude.

Calibration
This 10dB boost is achieved by calibration in the monitoring amplifiers at the studio; a full-scale LFE signal on the tape is set up to play 10dB louder than a full-scale signal on any other channel. The cost is increased noise - the channel has been turned up, so the general hiss and noise on the magnetic recording will also be 10dB louder. But this is not too much of a problem, as all sounds above 150Hz are filtered out anyway on playback. The channel is only handling low frequencies.

That is from the first post

If I understand that correctly, the LFE has been turned up in the recording
by 10db not turned down by 10db right? Then why boost it again by
another 10db.

Sorry for being slow. If it has already been recorded 10db louder
why should it have to be boosted by 10db while play back.
At one point the post says the LFE is recorded
10db higher in the studio and then later is says it is recorded 10db
too low. I just dont get it!

Its not turned up.... It is being allowed to go 10db louder. Explosions and such are allowed to be much louder than the rest of the material and thus need to be recorded 10db lower so it will 'fit' in the 'channel'

So if someone is screaming at max volume in one or more of the 5 channels... an explosion in the LFE channel can be 10db louder than the screaming or whatever in the 5 'normal' channels. LFE has 10db more 'headroom' than the other channels... and this headroom has to be compensated for by dropping it 10db in the recording and then raising it by 10db in the amplifier

one more question.

If LFE is recorder 10db too low, then how does booting it
by 10db on the receiver make it play 10db louder. Shouldnt that make it
the same level as the rest. i.e -10db + 10db = 0 same level as
the rest?

It doesnt... Its about the 'headroom' or maximum level allowed in the LFE channel. See above post.

Lets say a maximum loudness signal over the 5 channels level is 1v. If I want LFE to be allowed to be 10db louder than the others then the signal level is 3.2 volts. I cannot use a 1v channel to pass an 3.2v signal.... so what do I do... reduce the LFE by 10db and the level becomes 1v. That can be transported over the same kind of interconnect. I then put the 10db back in at the receiver. Same concept with PCM... if max PCM value is 1v... you cant encode 3.2v.

It doesnt... Its about the 'headroom' or maximum level allowed in the LFE channel. See above post.

Lets say a maximum loudness signal over the 5 channels level is 1v. If I want LFE to be allowed to be 10db louder than the others then the signal level is 10 volts. I cannot use a 1v channel to pass an 10v signal.... so what do I do... reduce the LFE by 10db and the level becomes 1v. That can be transported over the same kind of interconnect. I then put the 10db back in at the receiver. Same concept with PCM... if max PCM value is 1v... you cant encode 10v.

I guess I got it now. Thanks for the nice explanation and for putting
up with me :-)

Thanks for the clarification.

I was wondering why record it 10db low and then boost it 10db
Instead if it was recorded at the same level as other channels,
then there wouldnt be any need to boost it right?
So record it at the same level as other channels and then if
the user wants to hear it louder he/she can increase the
sub woofer level.

It is not recorded 10dB low. It is represented in its digital form as 10dB low. This is to prevent any clipping and have enough headroom. There are detailed articles about reference levels and peak levels, etc. I don't want to delve into it right now :)

I had been using the Yamaha RX-V795a for some 7 years
and now upgraded to the RX-V663

I never felt that the bass from 795a was low. In fact
I had to turn down the subwoofer level to make it tolerable.
So I presume 795a was applying the 10db boot by default.

Unlike 795a, 663 provides both LFE level control (-10db to +10db)
and sub woofer level control (0 to -20db)
I have not yet played a DVD on 663.

There has been some debate as to whether the 663 applies the
boost and also how 663 redirects the bass, especially when
a lower cross over is used for other channels.

Is it possible to gather this information about the 663 and
include 663 in the list of good/bad AVRs

I had been using the Yamaha RX-V795a for some 7 years
and now upgraded to the RX-V663

I never felt that the bass from 795a was low. In fact
I had to turn down the subwoofer level to make it tolerable.
So I presume 795a was applying the 10db boot by default.

Unlike 795a, 663 provides both LFE level control (-10db to +10db)
and sub woofer level control (0 to -20db)
I have not yet played a DVD on 663.

There has been some debate as to whether the 663 applies the
boost and also how 663 redirects the bass, especially when
a lower cross over is used for other channels.

Is it possible to gather this information about the 663 and
include 663 in the list of good/bad AVRs

How are you supplying audio (dts/dd?) to the receiver? If you are using optical/spdif then the 10/15db is being handled automatically. The boost issue only comes into play for analog audio or PCM.

Having played with this stuff for longer than most, I can assure you that the only way to get the levels correct is to use somethinng like the Audyssey system and then check the 8 individual channels with a test disc like the upcoming DVE Basic that is due out tomorrow. With it and a Sound Level Meter from Radio Shack, set all the gains to achieve the same levels with the appropriate test tones. I use 75 dB SPL but if you live in a quiet place where background noise is low, use 60 dB SPL or 65 dB SPL. Everything else is speculation. Without the meter, forget trying to think your way to the right settings. Too many variables!!!!

How are you supplying audio (dts/dd?) to the receiver? If you are using optical/spdif then the 10/15db is being handled automatically. The boost issue only comes into play for analog audio or PCM.

Thanks

Looking for a little help here on this.
I have a HK 147 set up with a full 5.1 system. I have a Sharp Blu ray player outputting 6 channel analog to the HK. With this set up I am getting the LFE channel too low. The system works great on Cable TV.

What do you suggest doing?

Raise the gain on the LFE channel until it sounds right. If you want to set up your system with reference tones, buy Video Essentials Basic which is due out any time. This will have reference tones to adjust each of your 6 channels properly.

Looking for a little help here on this.
I have a HK 147 set up with a full 5.1 system. I have a Sharp Blu ray player outputting 6 channel analog to the HK. With this set up I am getting the LFE channel too low. The system works great on Cable TV.

What do you suggest doing?

It looks like that receiver doesnt have the needed programmable +10/+15db boost on the analog SW input. About all you can do is what MrHiFi said and crank up the SW and down the rest in the player's bass management controls to get everything balanced out to 75db.

Cable TV works fine because your are most likely sending its audio to the receiver digitally (optical/spdif/hdmi) and the receivers decoding and bass management is handling the SW output properly.

http://manuals.harman.com/HK/HOM/Owner%27s%20Manual/AVR%20147om-new.pdf

Ok, here is what I am using:
An HD DVD -A2- latest FW, and a Blu-Ray BDP 1400, latest FW.
Both players connected via HDMI only to my Integra DTR 7.6 receiver.
My Integra DTR 7.6 is an HDMI 1.1 receiver. Therefore, decoding of DDTHD, DD+, PCM is done in the players and sent as Multich PCM to receiver.

Ok, here is what my receiver is capable of: Straight from the Integra's Owners Manual

Subwoofer Sensitivity
"Some DVD players output the LFE channel from their
subwoofer output at 15 dB higher than normal. You can
change the subwoofer sensitivity to match your DVD
player. Note that this setting only affects signals connected
to the SUBWOOFER input jack of the multichannel
DVD input.
You can select 0 dB, +5 dB, +10 dB, or +15 dB.
If you find that your subwoofer is too loud, try the
+10 dB or +15 dB setting."

Since I am using the HDMI connections, am I to assume that this statement above does not affect me? Correct.

LFE Level Setting
"With this setting, you can set the level of the LFE (LowFrequency Effects) channel for Dolby Digital, DTS,MCH PCM (HDMI IN), and MCH Ana (multichannel
DVD input). The level can be set to –∞, –20 dB, –10 dB, or 0 dB (default).
If you find that the low-frequency effects are too loud
when using one of these sources, set the level to –20 dB or –∞dB".


So my question is: since, it seems that I can adjust the LFE levels of DD & DTS and the MCH PCM (HDMI IN) settings, what should these look like in regards to the HD DVD player & BD player I am using? Here is what I have them set to.

Dolby Digital : Should it be set to (–10 dB or 0 dB) when played on the HD DVd or Bd player. It seems a tad bit low at my current setting of -10 db.

DTS: Should it be set to (–10 dB or 0 dB) when played on the HD DVd or Bd player. It seems correct at my current setting of -10 db.

MCH PCM: Should it be set to (-20 or –10 dB or 0 dB) when played on the HD DVd or Bd player. It seems correct at my current setting of -20 db.

My question here is: based on the info on post # 1 by KMO, do the above settings for (DD, DTS & MCH PCM) appear correct to you, in theory at least?

Thanks


Paul

Apologies if I'm posting this in the incorrect spot. I did not find an official Denon 3805 thread. This thread has been very informative, but doesn't quite indicate what my problem might be with my Denon 3805 receiver and Velodyne subwoofer.

I just bought a set of Orb Audio speakers. Once I hooked them up, I noticed my subwoofer wasn't really outputting anymore. I was replacing a pair of Polk bookshelf speakers.

The subwoofer fluctuates from needing to be turned all the way up (volume level 10) just to get a little volume out of it. This is a 10" Velodyne VPR series subwoofer. Before I made all the speaker changes, this thing was LOUD. If I went higher than "3" my neighbors would be upset.

Another issue is that there seems to be no output going to the subwoofer at times. The light that is usually green when the woofer is on is usually orange, probably indicating some sort of stand-by mode.

And here's the interesting part. I try to check the LFE settings on my AVR-3805 receiver - and it doesn't let me choose the option to select! I am not using the on-screen menu (just using the receiver) but the option to select "LFE" or "LFE+main" is option number 2.5. When going through the options, my receiver goes from 2.4 to 2.6! So I did a reset on the receiver, and then the option showed up. I chose "LFE+main". But later, it reverted back to not letting me select option 2.5 anymore (which is where I am now). That is even after another reset.

I have all my speakers set to "small" and subwoofer set to "yes". I have the crossover on the receiver set to 120 HZ (these are real small speakers). I have one monster cable running from the subwoofer (plugged into the 'LFE in' or the "L" input on the woofer and the subwoofer pre-out plug on the receiver .

I am pretty sure that this is an issue with a setting on the receiver or the way the subwoofer is connected. Because I once had this exact problem and it was fixed, I'm pretty certain the equipment is not defective.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

I have the HD-DVD/DVD copy of DVE, a RS digital SPL meter, and my computer for setup purposes. My equipment is as follows.

Separate amplifiers
Powered sub-woofer
BFD for sub-woofer equalization
Toshiba XA2 (to be replaced with blu-ray analog capable player)
Speakers

Thats it! It would not seem complicated right, or would it? I see this going on nowhere else and nobody seems to have an answer so here I am in the sticky asking. :)

I turn up the volume on the back of my sub-woofer after equalization until it reads 74dB for limited bandwidth pink noise on DVE while my XA2 sub-woofer level is at 0. My speakers are set to small and this does a -5dB less result coming from the XA2 subwoofer output where I must turn up the level to compensate. If I set them to large it is not -5dB less for the limited bandwidth pink noise and I would adjust accordingly but I don't have it setup like that . This is something to do with the -15dB versus the -10dB for the bass management I presume. I set the output in the player to PCM in two areas. I then setup my other speakers to 67dB because my computer says that level = 75dB after SPL corrections. This is -8 for the level settings on my XA2.

I stick in a CD. Hello! 95dB averaging with 108dB peeks! Enough to maybe upset the neighbors if my HT was not entirely surrounded by a concrete foundation and mostly underground. They are never home anyways. Moving on..

I put in a DVD. It's a mixed bag. I just love it when most previews average 95dB and the movie itself does not. We watch previews anyway but do they need to be so loud?? DTS encoding goes anywhere from great sounding sometimes or just downright muddy and 2D sounding. DD usually sounds great most of the time but not as clear sounding. My center channel seems to suffer the greatest.

HD-DVD's. Not much to complain about so....if they want it louder thats fine by me. If a Blu-Ray is going to be louder than reference also, that is fine as well.

Any tips on setup would be great and since I am going against the instructions on my copy DVE, something may be incorrect. I understand that for smaller rooms a lower calibration might be more appropriate of a level and this could be the case. If I were to turn down level some, it doesn't make a whole lot of difference but I want it to be right. I was thinking maybe also since channels were in their natural form that possibly they required SPL corrections for example when playing a sweep and reading on a RTA the levels for the sub-woofer played -10dB lower than the other speakers. We have watched movies with 75dB at each channel (not 67dB with SPL corrections) and it seems about 2X or 3X louder than in the cinema, although I did not see the films in theaters to make a direct comparison relating to the movies themselves.

I might eventually get my receiver returned from the repair center (it did not like being calibrated) and then use that but I'm not sure what boosting the sub-woofer will be like should I be able to do so. My receiver was one of the Pioneer models in question. It was a VSX-1012K similar to the 45TX. If you want to add that to the list of ones that do not have the option to boost LFE +10 or +15 without having to change speaker sizes, go ahead. I would like not to upgrade to a new AVR, although after the weeks of swapping out parts and failing test, there is still no certainty what I will get anyways. If there is no help, thanks for reading anyhow. :p

Qoute from: Audio/September1989 THX sound system
"Sub bass extension should go to 25Hz by means of subwoofers. The calibrated sound pressure level, for reproducing the absolute levels during the mix correctly, should be maintained within ± 2 db over the seating area. The system must be capable pf playing any film format without clipping distortion, while the theatre’s background noise level must be less than NC-30 and its reverberation time within the bounds".

Qoute from: Audio/September1989 THX sound system
... The calibrated sound pressure level, for reproducing the absolute levels during the mix correctly, should be marinated within ± 2 db over the seating area.
Marinated?? I thought it was braised!

"Maintained!" My eyesight isn’t too good at following small print.:D

"Maintained!" My eyesight isn’t too good at following small print.:D
You and me both!

Qoute from: Audio/September1989 THX sound system
"Sub bass extension should go to 25Hz by means of subwoofers. The calibrated sound pressure level, for reproducing the absolute levels during the mix correctly, should be maintained within ± 2 db over the seating area. The system must be capable pf playing any film format without clipping distortion, while the theatre’s background noise level must be less than NC-30 and its reverberation time within the bounds".

I have the subwoofer for the center channel. Would you recommend a subwoofer for left and right then as well? I would definitly be able to get away with setting LCR to small then. As it is setting them to small I have 3 distinct bass signals all fighting with one another at different times and different levels all at a large output. For much cheaper I could also add an additional left and right speaker then just set those to large. Which option sounds best?

edit: I will also try boosting the signal in my AVR when I get that instead of at the subwoofer to see if it helps. It isn't going to take a manual or a website to figure this one out. I will use my computer to do this.

I had a second speaker wire left undone accidently on my left channel because I was testing wire guages. Works fine now that I hooked it up again.

Edit: Found the source of the problem. Cannot use more than a single 12AWG on the amplifiers themselves whether in use or not. These were leftover from once using bi-amplification for additional power. Strange since I used to power subwoofers with 10AWG on them just fine.

I have the subwoofer for the center channel. Would you recommend a subwoofer for left and right then as well? I would definitly be able to get away with setting LCR to small then. As it is setting them to small I have 3 distinct bass signals all fighting with one another at different times and different levels all at a large output. For much cheaper I could also add an additional left and right speaker then just set those to large. Which option sounds best?

edit: I will also try boosting the signal in my AVR when I get that instead of at the subwoofer to see if it helps. It isn't going to take a manual or a website to figure this one out. I will use my computer to do this.


Steve
Yes I would 100% because it’s been done at the Empire and the frequency response seems far greater and WOW.

Try with five subs placed up front and because the home’s have height restriction as you can’t normally have these stage speakers standing above you many feet up.

So a few small platform stands made out of some timbre not too high and place the LCR onto them and place the subs between left and centre and centre and right on the floor. Or you can place them on platforms and stick a HF horn on them and use a few Dolby pro-logic decoders a little re-plugging and bingo you’ve got a Todd-AO SDDS8 like sound with many that have half panned sounds.

And you if you where to play around with Close encounters of the third kind as Star Wars doesn’t really count hare as it’s been though too many re-mixes LOL yeah if you can figure that out and its piss easy.

Send the LFE.1 to the two Dolby pro-logic decoders and this is hands on and the fun will be exciting at first. Yes send the LFE.1 to one of the extra inputs with Y lead and press a few buttons

And it will sound like Dolby format 42 “Baby Boom” have fun, I’d have to do a diagram and its not all that hard its piss easy.

Steve
Yes I would 100% because it’s been done at the Empire and the frequency response seems far greater and WOW.

Try with five subs placed up front and because the home’s have height restriction as you can’t normally have these stage speakers standing above you many feet up.

That is allot of sub-woofers. I bought a second matching one that will arrive later this week. I can only afford getting one a time. Five might be to many in my room. It is only slightly over 2000 cubic feet.


So a few small platform stands made out of some timbre not too high and place the LCR onto them and place the subs between left and centre and centre and right on the floor. Or you can place them on platforms and stick a HF horn on them and use a few Dolby pro-logic decoders a little re-plugging and bingo you’ve got a Todd-AO SDDS8 like sound with many that have half panned sounds.

And you if you where to play around with Close encounters of the third kind as Star Wars doesn’t really count hare as it’s been though too many re-mixes LOL yeah if you can figure that out and its piss easy.

Sounds fun. I need to try more than a few other locations but I will try that placement between the left and right center. The Todd-AO SDDS8 idea sounds nice but I am really sure I could pull that off. I am not very familiar with speaker design. The Polk RTi70 tower speakers sit closer to the same height as the center channel if I leave them on the floor.


Send the LFE.1 to the two Dolby pro-logic decoders and this is hands on and the fun will be exciting at first. Yes send the LFE.1 to one of the extra inputs with Y lead and press a few buttons

And it will sound like Dolby format 42 “Baby Boom” have fun, I’d have to do a diagram and its not all that hard its piss easy.

I don't have many buttons to press. I can select my speakers to be large on my player and I can adjust the crossover to 80Hz. I have the speaker delay distance matched perfectly at 9 feet. With REW I confirmed the system delay was 9 feet.

If sending LFE.1 only to sub-woofer is a good idea, I think I may be able to get away with setting all channels to large. The left and right each have 360W and total they all have 1335 watts. See test results bellow of the left and right playing using a Y-cable directly from my PC. I set a slightly higher target near 80 as an example since some movies I will listen to at a higher level. It is also as close as I could get before the Radio Shack SPL meter mic began to clip. If the image is to small you can click for a 1600X1200 res pic.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3054/2527659386_67204d057b_b.jpg (http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3054/2527659386_c1ba45c3ab_o.jpg)

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3045/2527660722_bba92ed5a0_b.jpg (http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3045/2527660722_1d454bb5c3_o.jpg)

Ok this is my problem, i have nearly finished my install and system and so comes the time to set everything up. I have an Onkyo 875 running a sony kdl40x3500, sony bdps500, and kef xq30 fronts xq5c centre, kef psw2500 subwoofer and when they arrive xq10 rears. My problem is as i only have the two fronts, centre and sub when i run the auto set-up it shows the sub but no sound comes from the sub. i have installed new cables and have it connected to the sub out on the 875 and via a spliter to the low line left and right on the sub, but still nothing but when i hook it up via left right front speaker inputs on the 875 it works ok. help what am i doing wrong. or does the 875 require the two rears to complete the calibration.

Is Denon AVR 988 one with the LFE problem or not ?

Is Denon AVR 988 one with the LFE problem or not ?

I assume you are talking about the analog external input issues with some amplifiers not having the appropriate boost for SW.....

See page 28.

http://www.usa.denon.com/AVR-988-OM-E_101.pdf

Its fine. +15 if you doing bass management in player or +10 if all speakers are set to large.

I assume you are talking about the analog external input issues with some amplifiers not having the appropriate boost for SW.....

See page 28.

http://www.usa.denon.com/AVR-988-OM-E_101.pdf

Its fine. +15 if you doing bass management in player or +10 if all speakers are set to large.

I am not using analog - all my audio connections are HDMI (from Oppo 970HD and from Samsung 1400 for Blu Rays)

Does this mean that I don't have an issue ? Where all my speakers should be set to large ; in the 2 players or in AVR ?

Thanks,
Nikonowski

I am not using analog - all my audio connections are HDMI (from Oppo 970HD and from Samsung 1400 for Blu Rays)

Does this mean that I don't have an issue ? Where all my speakers should be set to large ; in the 2 players or in AVR ?

Thanks,
Nikonowski

If you are running all digital then you should be fine.

I would set the DVD players to all speakers large and yes to subwoofer and all the distances to their defaults which should be equal distances. Then all the bass management will be done in the AV Receiver.

I have tried recommendations from Dave of Audyssey forum and I will see over the weekend how this will sound. I will try movies (DB and DVD) and as well CDs , SACDs and DVD -As. I will report my findings next week. For everybody benefit these are my settings right no (after the change):

I have 7.1 surround system that consists of the following speakers:

2 mains are Paradigm Phantom v.2
2 surround left/right are YAMAHA Speakers 2X Model NS-E55
1 Center Surround is 1X NS-C55
2 back surround speakers are Paradigm Cinema 30 v.3
Subwoofer is Yamaha YST-SW160

My Denon 988 setup currently is as follows (this is after running the initial mic calibration in 8 spots in my room):

Speaker Config:

Front Speakers:SMALL
Centre Speaker:SMALL
Surround Speakers:SMALL
Surround Speakers Back: 2 speakers SMALL
Subwoofer setup: YES and LFE is set to: LFE only

Crossover Frequencies for the above are set to ADVANCED and as follows:

Front Speakers:SMALL @ 60Hz
Centre Speaker:SMALL @ 60Hz
Surround Speakers:SMALL @ 60Hz
Surround Speakers Back: 2 speakers SMALL @ 60Hz
Subwoofer speaker (LFE) @ 100 Hz
Subwoofer setup: YES and LFE is set to: LFE only


Note: My subwoofer High-Cut physical knob is turned all the way up @ 140 Hz setting and the volume knob on the sub woofer is at 2 o'clock. By the way how much volume I should be setting on my subwoofer ???

All my DVD players and BD players are hooked up to my my Denon AVR-988 via HDMI and they all have speakers set to LARGE in their respective menus.

Dave, what kind of sound experience I should be expecting? Perhaps there is a BD or DVD or music reference that you are familiar with and can suggest for me to test to confirm that I indeed am getting the sound experience that I should. If such reference material exists, I need to know what to look for.


Can anyone comment on how this setups looks to you and if there is anything else I should be concerned about? Perhaps you have concerns or other settings suggestions that you wish to share with me and all of us on this forum ???

Thanks very much to Dave (from Audyssey forum) and everybody else contributing! Great work everybody

Ciao,
Nikonowski

If you are running all digital then you should be fine.

Nope.. THe LFE issue is an issue with processing the LFE of multichannel PCM properly. If the LFE issue exists, it can still exist if you are passing multichannel PCM over HDMI. If you are passing multichannel audio as bitstream Dolby Digital or DTS, then there is no problem.
A way to find out it to play a DVD-Audio 5.1 track; if the bass seems weak compared to the same track played as DD 5.1 (DVD-A discs always contain both a DVD-A version and a DD/DTS version), then likely there is an LFE issue

I would set the DVD players to all speakers large and yes to subwoofer and all the distances to their defaults which should be equal distances. Then all the bass management will be done in the AV Receiver.

My advice as well. ANd btw, I'm kind of sorry I mentioned the LFE issue in the first palce, as now Nikonowski is obsessing about it, whereas I would predict his modern Denon does NOT have the LFE issue. A thread discussing the Denon 988 (like this one (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1012881&highlight=denon+988)) might be a place to find out for sure....this LFE thread stopped being updated long ago (sticky hasn't been updated since APril '07).

Front Speakers:SMALL @ 60Hz
Centre Speaker:SMALL @ 60Hz
Surround Speakers:SMALL @ 60Hz
Surround Speakers Back: 2 speakers SMALL @ 60Hz
Subwoofer speaker (LFE) @ 100 Hz
Subwoofer setup: YES and LFE is set to: LFE only


I don't have a Denon receiver (yet), so I don't know what Subwoofer: Yes and LFE: LFE only means, but it sounds to me like to are telling your subwoofer to play LFE only and NOT to play the redirected bass from the mains.

If that is the case, and your mains are set to SMALL, then won't you be missing the redirected bass completely?

I don't have a Denon receiver (yet), so I don't know what Subwoofer: Yes and LFE: LFE only means, but it sounds to me like to are telling your subwoofer to play LFE only and NOT to play the redirected bass from the mains.

If that is the case, and your mains are set to SMALL, then won't you be missing the redirected bass completely?

Hi msulinski,

This is the response I got from experts in the Audyssey forums:

"Re your subwoofer question in your other post:

If you set the sub to LFE and you have speakers set to Large, it should act as a dedicated sub channel with no content passed to it from the other channels. If you set it to LFE+Main, it should also get content from the other speakers below the crossovers set for those Large speakers but the Large speakers are still run full range and get content below their crossovers.

If you have any speakers set to Small, the sub should always be getting content from the Small speakers and the Small speakers should never get content below their crossover frequency regardless of the sub setting.

The LFE/LFE+Main setting doesn't do anything with Small speakers. What it really does is toggle double bass on and off for Large speakers. The simple things to remember are:

- Large speakers always get a full range signal;
- Small speakers never get a full range signal and any content below their crossover frequency is always handled by the sub, and only by the sub;
- the way you set things so that the sub, and only the sub, handles frequencies below a speaker's crossover is to set the speaker to Small. The LFE/LFE+Main choice does not work with Small speakers;
- for Large speakers you have a choice as to whether you want to have the both the sub and speaker handle frequencies below the speaker's crossover frequency in order to get a bass boost often referred to as 'double bass', ie the LFE+Main setting, or let the speaker everything in its channel on its own and just let the sub handle the LFE channel content; ie the LFE setting."



And that's why I set up mine the way I did :) I am still testing the outcome
( I will give myself about a week) and I will give feedback after my tests are done !

Regards,
Nikonowski

ANd btw, I'm kind of sorry I mentioned the LFE issue in the first palce, as now Nikonowski is obsessing about it, whereas I would predict his modern Denon does NOT have the LFE issue. A thread discussing the Denon 988 (like this one (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1012881&highlight=denon+988)) might be a place to find out for sure....this LFE thread stopped being updated long ago (sticky hasn't been updated since APril '07).


krabapple,

No worries man :) I am not really obsessing about the LFE bug any longer after you had explained to me that it does not impact digital connections and I am not using analog - all my audio connections are HDMI (from Oppo 970HD and from Samsung 1400 for Blu Rays)

Once again, thanks for taking the time to provide your valuable feedabck !

Ciao,

Nikonowski

krabapple,
No worries man :) I am not really obsessing about the LFE bug any longer after you had explained to me that it does not impact digital connections


argh! I didn't say that. I said it DOES impact HDMI (which is certainly digital) *IF* you are passing multichannel PCM over it, rather than bitstream.

It will not impact optical/coax digital, because you can't pass multichannel PCM over those, only mc bitstream.

The key is that only MULTICHANNEL PCM sources with LFE are victims, if the bug is present. That typically means multichannel

DVD-Audio
DOlby True HD
DTS Master Audio
SACD-->PCM

SACD with DSD is a further complication to all that. My tests suggest that my Denon DVD-3930 passes out the LFE over Denon Link as equal-level - the same as the raw SACD data, not needing a boost.

Therefore in this case to get proper calibration for SACD, you need to set the LFE level to 0dB instead of +10dB in the amplifier. Fortunately Denon amplifiers can remember such settings on a per-input-type basis.

I suspect most devices outputting DSD over a digital link will do the same - it's non-trivial (and lossy) to reduce a DSD signal by 10dB to get normal interconnect levels, so they just output the raw data. But devices outputting SACD through analogue or PCM will generally lower the LFE by 10dB to make it consistent with other formats.

Sony dropped the ball a bit by putting equal-level LFE on SACD. They should have omitted it altogether, or given it the normal +10dB headroom. I'd have preferred the former.

This is a great thread!

The Amp/Receiver forum should have this same thread..

ok so i have a sony 5300es receiver and a ps3 for my blu ray. im connected through an HDMI cable for video and audio. i have been playing with the settings by switching the bitstream to the linear pcm and so on. my problem is when i have it set on linear pcm my SW goes to 10+db and sounds way to bassy almost where it sounds like its damaging the subwoofer. but if i have it set on the other setting at 0db than you cant even hear the subwoofer. ive been told and read every where linear pcm is going to give better sound quality but the subwoofer is a problem on bitstream it runs through dolby digital and the subwoofer sounds at a good volume but on linear pcm its either to loud or not loud enough. should i just keep it on linear pcm 10+ db or will that damage my sub?
thanks.

ok so i have a sony 5300es receiver and a ps3 for my blu ray. im connected through an HDMI cable for video and audio. i have been playing with the settings by switching the bitstream to the linear pcm and so on. my problem is when i have it set on linear pcm my SW goes to 10+db and sounds way to bassy almost where it sounds like its damaging the subwoofer. but if i have it set on the other setting at 0db than you cant even hear the subwoofer. ive been told and read every where linear pcm is going to give better sound quality but the subwoofer is a problem on bitstream it runs through dolby digital and the subwoofer sounds at a good volume but on linear pcm its either to loud or not loud enough. should i just keep it on linear pcm 10+ db or will that damage my sub?
thanks.

If you want to hear the lossless audio, you have to keep the PS3 setting at LPCM (letting the PS3 decode).

Now that we've established that, it sounds like the gain either on your subwoofer and/or the channel level for LFE in the receiver may be too high. Make sure the baseline calibration based on bitstreaming is correct. You'll need either DVE or Avia to make sure of this; test tones from the receiver don't count for anything!

As a point of reference, if your sub has a volume control, typically you don't need to turn it past 12 o'clock. Anything more and something's wrong. Also, make sure your delay settings are correct. Make sure the sub isn't set at something like 15 or 20 ft (unless it really is that far away).

thanks, i have my sub set at 0 in the receiver and its set at 2 o clock. i use my xbox 360 to play cds for music and the bass is barely there from my subwoofer but on my ps3 its booming. if i put my subwoofer down anymore on my control it would not be heard. i have really noticed it on the opening scene of transformers when the helicopter is flying it sounds like the sub is going to blow on LPCM but on bitstream it sounds normal. is the sub getting a different bass signal on LPCM vs bitstream because i have turned my sub down and it still sounds like its blowing.

Having played with this stuff for longer than most, I can assure you that the only way to get the levels correct is to use somethinng like the Audyssey system and then check the 8 individual channels with a test disc like the upcoming DVE Basic that is due out tomorrow. ---ithout the meter, forget trying to think your way to the right settings. Too many variables!!!!

Regarding the "upcoming DVE Basic that is due out tomorrow," could someone please provide a little more detail. (Like, what is it, who makes it, and where could I get one?) I'm assuming this test disk (CD, SACD??) can be used to check Audyssey-produced settings with a dB meter, but it doesn't seem to be listed on Amazon, for example.

Thanks,
Jim Cate

Regarding the "upcoming DVE Basic that is due out tomorrow," could someone please provide a little more detail. (Like, what is it, who makes it, and where could I get one?) I'm assuming this test disk (CD, SACD??) can be used to check Audyssey-produced settings with a dB meter, but it doesn't seem to be listed on Amazon, for example.

Thanks,
Jim Cate

He was referring to DVE: HD Basics, which you can find here:

http://www.amazon.com/Digital-Video-Essentials-Basics-Blu-ray/dp/B000V6LST0/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1224022092&sr=8-1

What an informative thread. One of the best on this board. Kudos to KMO and all who contributed.

I am connecting a Blu ray player with internal Tru-HD and DTS HD-MA decoding, via analog outputs, to an Onkyo 940 receiver. The receiver is capable of boosting the SW input 0-15 dB, in 5 dB increments.

So my question is, do I need to boost the SW by 10 or 15 dB??? Is this player and/or format dependent??

Also after the above adjustment am I all set to enjoy Tru HD, DTS HD-MA and PCM or is there anything else I need to do??

What an informative thread. One of the best on this board. Kudos to KMO and all who contributed.

I am connecting a Blu ray player with internal Tru-HD and DTS HD-MA decoding, via analog outputs, to an Onkyo 940 receiver. The receiver is capable of boosting the SW input 0-15 dB, in 5 dB increments.

So my question is, do I need to boost the SW by 10 or 15 dB??? Is this player and/or format dependent??

Also after the above adjustment am I all set to enjoy Tru HD, DTS HD-MA and PCM or is there anything else I need to do??

In general, if all the speakers are set to 'large' in player bass management, then +10. If any are set to 'small' then +15.

In general, if all the speakers are set to 'large' in player bass management, then +10. If any are set to 'small' then +15.

Thanks very much. This may sound like a stupid question but do I first calibrate the subwoofer level(75 dB) and then boost the SW input, or do I boost the input first, then calibrate the subwoofer level?? Does it even make a difference??

Thanks very much. This may sound like a stupid question but do I first calibrate the subwoofer level(75 dB) and then boost the SW input, or do I boost the input first, then calibrate the subwoofer level?? Does it even make a difference??

Enable the correct boost before calibration.

The boost is only applied to the analog inputs and not the digital inputs to the receiver. The receiver bitstream decoder should boost the SW channel the appropriate amount based on how bass management is configured.

Some receivers also have boost for LPCM inputs also for the same purpose.

Some receivers also have boost for LPCM inputs also for the same purpose.

I don't understand this part. What is LPCM inputs??

I don't understand this part. What is LPCM inputs?? My receiver does not have boost for LPCM inputs . Does this mean if I play film with a PCM soundtrack, I will not be getting the full subwoofer level??

HDMI can carry 'bitstream' or 'LPCM'. For LPCM, the decoding has already been done upstream just like with analog. Thus the configuration of the speakers upstream effects the level of the SW LPCM. LPCM is pretty much like analog from a receiver perspective except many if not all receivers can do bass management on LPCM where they cant on analog.

If you are hooked up via analog... LPCM means nothing.

Thanks for the clarification. one more thing. Here are the requirements from the original post.

Analogue multichannel

* Player should perform bass management
* Player's SW output should be LFE (if no bass management), or Lower5dB(LFE) + Lower15dB(Redirected bass).
* Player MUST take 10dB difference into account when redirecting bass. If wrong, the error is uncorrectable in the receiver.
* Player's SW output will be 10dB or 15dB low (possibly 0dB or 5dB for some awkward SACD players).
* Receiver should offer options to boost SW input by 0-15dB (a dedicated configurable setting for multichannel input).


How can I make sure that the player is taking the 10dB into account when redirecting bass. Are all Blu Ray players capable of doing this??

Thanks for the clarification. one more thing. Here are the requirements from the original post.

Analogue multichannel

* Player should perform bass management
* Player's SW output should be LFE (if no bass management), or Lower5dB(LFE) + Lower15dB(Redirected bass).
* Player MUST take 10dB difference into account when redirecting bass. If wrong, the error is uncorrectable in the receiver.
* Player's SW output will be 10dB or 15dB low (possibly 0dB or 5dB for some awkward SACD players).
* Receiver should offer options to boost SW input by 0-15dB (a dedicated configurable setting for multichannel input).


How can I make sure that the player is taking the 10dB into account when redirecting bass. Are all Blu Ray players capable of doing this??

All players should be doing this. However, there can be bugs... The Panasonic BD30 had a bug in the SW output area and needed a FW update to fix it. The Denon 2500 did too... since it was based on Panasonic. You can use a test disk like DVE HD Basics or Digital Video Essentials and validate that the levels are all correct after calibration. that will confirm all is well.

All players should be doing this. However, there can be bugs... The Panasonic BD30 had a bug in the SW output area and needed a FW update to fix it. The Denon 2500 did too... since it was based on Panasonic. You can use a test disk like DVE HD Basics or Digital Video Essentials and validate that the levels are all correct after calibration. that will confirm all is well.

Thanks for all your help. I really appreciate it. I will be using the new Panasonic BD55. I will make sure it has the latest FW update, and I think I should be good to go.


By the way I don't know if KMO is still updating the first post. If yes then he can add the Onkyo HT-R940 to list of safe receivers. Here are the adjustments I found inside.

Anolog SW input boost: 0-15 dB (5dB increments)


Digital bitsream
Dolby LFE: -10dB or 0dB
DTS LFE: -10dB or 0dB

I want to make sure I have my head wrapped around the whole multi channel analog/LFE issue. I'll be using a Panasonic 55, multi analog out to my existing Denon 3802. I've tried to read everything and this is the way I understand it.

I'll set all speakers to small in the 55's menu. The 55 will then add the correct boost for the redirected bass. The LFE will continue to be sent over the 7.1 analog out 10db lower. I will then have to up the SW level 10db in the 3802's channel level setting. Am I on track so far?

With my current DVD digital coax connection my LFE channel setting is at -2 (out of a possible +12 and ALL channels are calibrated with an SPL meter.). When I add the 10db it will put me at +8. Did I just run out of headroom? Will I experience clipping or is it effectively a wash because the receiver isn't automatically adding the 10db?

I want to make sure I have my head wrapped around the whole multi channel analog/LFE issue. I'll be using a Panasonic 55, multi analog out to my existing Denon 3802. I've tried to read everything and this is the way I understand it.

I'll set all speakers to small in the 55's menu. The 55 will then add the correct boost for the redirected bass. The LFE will continue to be sent over the 7.1 analog out 10db lower. I will then have to up the SW level 10db in the 3802's channel level setting. Am I on track so far?

With my current DVD digital coax connection my LFE channel setting is at -2 (out of a possible +12 and ALL channels are calibrated with an SPL meter.). When I add the 10db it will put me at +8. Did I just run out of headroom? Will I experience clipping or is it effectively a wash because the receiver isn't automatically adding the 10db?

No.

1) With speakers set to small in the player, the player will reduce the subwoofer output by 15db. Your receiver should have an option to boost the Analog Subwoofer input by 10 or 15db. You should select 15db.

2) The receiver bass management settings is not the place to compensate for the 10/15db subwoofer attenuation as it will mess up all your other digital sources.

EDIT: I checked your receiver manual http://www.usa.denon.com/AVR3802_1082_OwnersManual.pdf and it looks like your receiver is like my old Denon 4800 and doesnt have the ability to add the required gain to the subwoofer input. SOL.... You can turn up the sub but it will mess up all the other sources. Im not sure if the multichannel level controls will do anything to the external inputs. You might have to do as I did and get a new receiver.

No.

1) With speakers set to small in the player, the player will reduce the subwoofer output by 15db. Your receiver should have an option to boost the Analog Subwoofer input by 10 or 15db. You should select 15db.

2) The receiver bass management settings is not the place to compensate for the 10/15db subwoofer attenuation as it will mess up all your other digital sources.

EDIT: I checked your receiver manual http://www.usa.denon.com/AVR3802_1082_OwnersManual.pdf and it looks like your receiver is like my old Denon 4800 and doesnt have the ability to add the required gain to the subwoofer input. SOL.... You can turn up the sub but it will mess up all the other sources. Im not sure if the multichannel level controls will do anything to the external inputs. You might have to do as I did and get a new receiver.

Or, he can calibrate the analog based on the analog output and attentuate the calibration for the digital connection. That solves both without changing the subwoofer gain each time. Is this clear?

I want to make sure I have my head wrapped around the whole multi channel analog/LFE issue. I'll be using a Panasonic 55, multi analog out to my existing Denon 3802. I've tried to read everything and this is the way I understand it.

I'll set all speakers to small in the 55's menu. The 55 will then add the correct boost for the redirected bass. The LFE will continue to be sent over the 7.1 analog out 10db lower. I will then have to up the SW level 10db in the 3802's channel level setting. Am I on track so far?Is a "55" a player?

What are you using to calibrate? I would strongly suggest you use a calibration DVD such as AVIA. With a calibration DVD, you can calibrate both connections, digital and analog, independently and correctly. You will use whatever settings it takes to achieve a calibration of the player's analog connections. You do not have to worry about any sort of additional adjustments to the subwoofer levels. Everything will come out in the wash. If you have no sub in boost setting in the receiver, you may have to use a combination of the player's level trims and the receiver's analog inputs' level trims to get the subwoofer's multichannel analog connection correct (see below). But once you calibrate either connection, the calibration is done. A calibration is a calibration.

No.

1) With speakers set to small in the player, the player will reduce the subwoofer output by 15db. Your receiver should have an option to boost the Analog Subwoofer input by 10 or 15db. You should select 15db.Do you know this is correct for his specific player, scsiraid? It varies from player to player. But it is irrelevant. Whether you have a way to specifically boost the multichannel analog input cluster's sub in or not, Nick P., you will (hopefully) be able to adjust everything appropriately if you use a calibration DVD. If you do have a sub in boost, that's great, but you don't necessarily have to have it. With a combination of the player's level trims and the receiver's analog input level trims (which it hopefully has), you can get the 15dBs (or 10dBs, or whatever it is) difference between the subwoofer and speakers that you need. If you can't adjust both the player's analog output level trims AND the receiver's multichannel analog input level trims, you may have an issue getting 15dBs (if that is, indeed, what is needed for your particular player).

But, for example, all else being equal, if you set the speakers' level trims in the player to -7.5dB and the sub's level trim to +7.5, you have created a +15dB difference in the subwoofer level. Again, if you use a calibration DVD to calibrate the multichannel analog connection, all that is important is that the calibration be correct. There are no 'fudge factors' involved. If you achieve a calibration, wherever you need to set all the level trims, then you are calibrated.

But a calibration DVD is a prerequisite for all of this. Without it, you are almost shooting in the dark. Of course, you can always adjust the multichannel analog connection 'by ear'.

Is a "55" a player?

Yes, He's talking about the Panasonic BD55 BD player that decodes all.


Do you know this is correct for his specific player, scsiraid? It varies from player to player. But it is irrelevant.

The first post made it very clear that anytime speakers are set to SMALL, then you are going to have redirected LFE. This lowers LFE by an additional 5dB to -15dB. If all speakers are LARGE, then only -10dB applies as there is no redirected LFE. Read the first post.

The first post made it very clear that anytime speakers are set to SMALL, then you are going to have redirected LFE. This lowers LFE by an additional 5dB to -15dB. If all speakers are LARGE, then only -10dB applies as there is no redirected LFE. Read the first post. Gotcha. I was under the impression that some players do this incorrectly.

And there is no "redirected LFE". Bass is redirected. The SW output, which contains the summed redirected bass and the LFE at the proper ratio is lowered an additional 5dB when the speakers are set to SMALL. Otherwise, the SW output (which = LFE when the speakers are set to LARGE) is only lowered the appropriate 10dB.

You can turn up the sub but it will mess up all the other sources.
There will be no other sources. The new Panny 55 will replace my current DVD player.
What are you using to calibrate? I would strongly suggest you use a calibration DVD such as AVIA.
I have been using a DVD version of Video Essentials to calibrate my sound levels.

I've had all my speakers set to small for the last 5 years or so. All my my bass is being handled by my subs as recommended by Tom Vodhanel at SVS. If I set the player's speaker setting to *large* then what happens once it passes to the receiver through the analog 7.1 inputs? Does the receiver's speaker settings of *small* take over? I was under the impression that once I use the analog inputs it completely bypasses all functions of the receiver.
You will use whatever settings it takes to achieve a calibration of the player's analog connections. You do not have to worry about any sort of additional adjustments to the subwoofer levels. Everything will come out in the wash. If you have no sub in boost setting in the receiver, you may have to use a combination of the player's level trims and the receiver's analog inputs' level trims to get the subwoofer's multichannel analog connection correct
It will be no problem to turn-up the SW level an additional 10db to compensate for the lower LFE... unless it causes me to lose necessary headroom like I mentioned in my original post. I'm worried about the redirected bass from the other channels finding it's way to the subs.

If I set the player's speaker setting to *large* then what happens once it passes to the receiver through the analog 7.1 inputs?Nothing. It stays LARGE (non-bass-managed). Unless your receiver can bass manage its multichannel analog inputs. Very few receivers can do that. Think of the analog multichannel inputs as nothing but pass-through. You can't apply bass or time management to them. They go straight to the amps. You may be able to adjust their level trims, but that is it.


Does the receiver's speaker settings of *small* take over?No. The receiver's bass and time management settings are only applied to what enters the receiver digitally. The only way to bass and time manage the multichannel analog connection is with the player, where the decoding occurs. The settings in the receiver (except for the multichannel analog input level trims) are irrelevant to the multichannel analog inputs.


I was under the impression that once I use the analog inputs it completely bypasses all functions of the receiver.Right.



It will be no problem to turn-up the SW level an additional 10db to compensate for the lower LFE... unless it causes me to lose necessary headroom like I mentioned in my original post. I'm worried about the redirected bass from the other channels finding it's way to the subs.If you set the speaker sizes to SMALL in the player, the bass will be rerouted to the subwoofer output. If you can't boost the player's sub out and/or the receiver's sub in, then you will need to find 15dB somewhere. Most receivers allow you to adjust the analog input level trims. So, between the player's channel level trims and the receiver's analog input level trims, you WILL be able to find the 15dB. As I pointed out as a simplified example above, if you set the speakers' levels to -7.5dB in the player and the sub level to +7.5dB in the player, that is a 15dB difference right there. Plus you will probably also be able to adjust the receiver's analog input level trims. Everything is relative. One way or the other you very most likely WILL be able to adjust the subwoofer in/out relative level appropriately.



Now, you should be aware that the bass and time management capabilities of players are usually much more primitive than those available in a receiver. Players often only have a single fixed crossover that can be too high. 80Hz is OK in most instances. But 120Hz is too high, IMO.

Okay, did some real world testing tonight. I had my friend bring over his Sony S550 and we hooked it up via 7.1 analog out to my 3802. Set all speakers to *small* and sub to *yes* in the 550's menu and left all trim levels at 0db (max gain). Used my Video Essentials DVD and reset all the channel volume levels in the 3802. I DID have to raise the SW level 15db (I had incorrectly said it was originally set at -2, it was at -9) to get it to read 75db like the other channels. Oh, and EWL5, you are correct. I can set the levels for both analog and digital independently.

We played Kung Fu Panda and the bass was incredible. It sure sounded like every bit of bass from both the LFE and channel redirect was there, and then some on top of it. I was very impressed with my first Dolby True HD experience.

However, one of my original questions remains. After adding the 15db to the SW level I'm now at +6 out of a possible +12. Have I run out of headroom or is it in effect the same as the previous -9 with the receiver adding the decibels and now I've just added them manually?

Oh, and EWL5, you are correct. I can set the levels for both analog and digital independently.Of course you can. The digital connection and multi analog connection are completely independent. The player's settings are only applied to the analog connection. The receiver is incapable of applying anything to its multichannel analog inputs. You may be able to adjust the inputs' individual level trims. If you have this capability, you do this by adjusting them 'on the fly' when in the multi analog input mode the same way you adjust the receiver's channel level trims 'on the fly' when in a digital mode. Your digital connection will pass a bitstream to the receiver where it is decoded and the receiver's settings will be applied.


However, one of my original questions remains. After adding the 15db to the SW level I'm now at +6 out of a possible +12. Have I run out of headroom or is it in effect the same as the previous -9 with the receiver adding the decibels and now I've just added them manually?The receiver doesn't add anything to the analog input. That is the whole point. You have to add the 15dB with the level trim settings of the player and/or receiver. Can you adjust the multi analog inputs' level trims with the receiver? Either way, it doesn't matter, as long as you account for the player's sub out being 15dB too low, which you did. A calibration is a calibration. If you got all the SPL levels to read correctly, then you have calibrated the multi analog connection. And no, you have not run out of headroom. If you are so concerned, you can adjust everything in unison so that the sub level is lower. It is all relative. For example, you can reduce the level trim of all the channels by 5dB (or whatever). You'll still be calibrated, it will just take turning the receiver's master volume up that 5dB (or whatever) to get you back to reference level.

Capeche?

The receiver doesn't add anything to the analog input. That is the whole point.
I know this. I was referring to the previous digital coax connection at which the SW level was at -9.
Capeche?
Yep, I think I'm good. :) Thanks for everyone's advice!

I know this. I was referring to the previous digital coax connection at which the SW level was at -9.The sub level adjustment you make for your sub with the analog connection are independent of and irrelevant to that which adjust it for your digital connection. The only thing that adjusts the sub's or speakers' levels for the digital connection is the individual speaker and subwoofer level trims in the receiver. The only way you adjust the sub's and speakers' levels for the analog connection is either with the player's level trims or the receiver's analog input level trims. The 2 sets of settings are completely separate and do not affect or influence each other.

In other words, calibrate both the analog and digital connections independently and you will never have to touch either of them.

In other words, calibrate both the analog and digital connections independently and you will never have to touch either of them.

Right but you failed to mention the order. He should calibrate based on the analog output first since it is limiting with the -15dB followed by the digital connection. It is easier to subtract LFE trim for the digital connection rather than look for LFE trim that will be insufficient for the analog. The order of calibration is important for him. I am assuming he wants one SW gain setting and doesn't want to walk back and forth to change the gain when playing digital vs analog.

Also, I do not believe I am in error when calling it "redirected LFE." LFE stands for Low Frequency Effects and redirected LFE is typically anything less than 80Hz. I don't think they stop being "low frequency" just because it joins the .1 channel. You say tow-may-tow, I say tow-mah-tow...

The sub level adjustment you make for your sub with the analog connection are independent of and irrelevant to that which adjust it for your digital connection. The only thing that adjusts the sub's or speakers' levels for the digital connection is the individual speaker and subwoofer level trims in the receiver. The only way you adjust the sub's and speakers' levels for the analog connection is either with the player's level trims or the receiver's analog input level trims. The 2 sets of settings are completely separate and do not affect or influence each other.

In other words, calibrate both the analog and digital connections independently and you will never have to touch either of them.
I must be the world's worst communicator...;)

I am assuming he wants one SW gain setting and doesn't want to walk back and forth to change the gain when playing digital vs analog.
With my receiver it saves the digital input calibration and analog input calibrations seperately. It's a simple push of a button on my remote to switch between the 2. So sivadselim is dead-on, I've calibrated both and they do not need to be touched again.

Again, thanks for all the help and advice. :)

Right but you failed to mention the order. He should calibrate based on the analog output first since it is limiting with the -15dB followed by the digital connection. It is easier to subtract LFE trim for the digital connection rather than look for LFE trim that will be insufficient for the analog. The order of calibration is important for him. I am assuming he wants one SW gain setting and doesn't want to walk back and forth to change the gain when playing digital vs analog.He can figure all that out himself. But you are correct, if he wants both connections to be calibrated with the same exact master volume setting on his receiver, there may be an ideal way to do things. All that is important is that he realize that it is all relative.

Consider a simple hypothetical situation where all the channels of a digital connection are calibrated to "0.0" dB. Now suppose that at the same master volume setting on the receiver and the same master volume setting on the back of the subwoofer, his player's left front channel calibrates at "+1.0" dB, and that the subwoofer output on the player and the analog subwoofer input on the receiver have the same gain as the speaker ins/outs of the player and receiver. This would mean that the subwoofer level trim in the player would need to be set to "+16.0" dB in order to calibrate the sub properly. But his player's level trims only go to "+10.0" dB. There are several ways he can compensate for this. The easiest would be to set all his channels' level trims in the player to a lower relative value, for example, we'll subtract 8.5dB. So his main channels would be set to "-7.5" dB and his subwoofer channel would be set to "+7.5" dB in the player. And his master volume setting on his receiver would have to be adjusted up that same 8.5 dB to achieve his 'reference volume' level. Or, if he wants the 'reference volume' to be the same master volume setting on the receiver, and he is capable of adjusting the individual level trims of his receiver's analog inputs, he can set them all to "+8.5" dB.

If he wanted to find a happy medium between all those settings, he could. All that matters is that, in the end, everything be calibrated to the same relative levels.


Also, I do not believe I am in error when calling it "redirected LFE." LFE stands for Low Frequency Effects and redirected LFE is typically anything less than 80Hz. I don't think they stop being "low frequency" just because it joins the .1 channel.No, you are wrong. And this is something very fundamental. The LFE channel is a specifically encoded channel; the .1 channel. As long as a processor is set up as having a subwoofer, the LFE channel is ALWAYS directed to the subwoofer out. Redirected bass below the crossover setting, be it 80Hz or not, is just that; redirected bass. To call it LFE, which you, yourself, have capitalized as Low Frequency Effects, is a gross misuse of the term. The only time LFE is redirected is when a processor is set up as having NO SUB. In this case, the LFE channel is redirected to the LARGE front channels. The LFE channel can contain info as high as 120Hz, which is a common cutoff point used by engineers. But it can contain info even higher that. In fact, there is no reason it cannot carry a full-range signal.

As an aside, players will not reroute LFE to the LARGE front channels when configured as having NO SUB. Instead, in this instance, it is dropped altogether.

He can figure all that out himself. But you are correct, if he wants both connections to be calibrated with the same exact master volume setting on his receiver, there may be an ideal way to do things. All that is important is that he realize that it is all relative.

Consider a simple hypothetical situation where all the channels of a digital connection are calibrated to "0.0" dB. Now suppose that at the same master volume setting on the receiver and the same master volume setting on the back of the subwoofer, his player's left front channel calibrates at "+1.0" dB, and that the subwoofer output on the player and the analog subwoofer input on the receiver have the same gain as the speaker ins/outs of the player and receiver. This would mean that the subwoofer level trim in the player would need to be set to "+16.0" dB in order to calibrate the sub properly. But his player's level trims only go to "+10.0" dB. There are several ways he can compensate for this. The easiest would be to set all his channels' level trims in the player to a lower relative value, for example, we'll subtract 8.5dB. So his main channels would be set to "-7.5" dB and his subwoofer channel would be set to "+7.5" dB in the player. And his master volume setting on his receiver would have to be adjusted up that same 8.5 dB to achieve his 'reference volume' level. Or, if he wants the 'reference volume' to be the same master volume setting on the receiver, and he is capable of adjusting the individual level trims of his receiver's analog inputs, he can set them all to "+8.5" dB.

If he wanted to find a happy medium between all those settings, he could. All that matters is that, in the end, everything be calibrated to the same relative levels.


No, you are wrong. And this is something very fundamental. The LFE channel is a specifically encoded channel; the .1 channel. As long as a processor is set up as having a subwoofer, the LFE channel is ALWAYS directed to the subwoofer out. Redirected bass below the crossover setting, be it 80Hz or not, is just that; redirected bass. To call it LFE, which you, yourself, have capitalized as Low Frequency Effects, is a gross misuse of the term. The only time LFE is redirected is when a processor is set up as having NO SUB. In this case, the LFE channel is redirected to the LARGE front channels. The LFE channel can contain info as high as 120Hz, which is a common cutoff point used by engineers. But it can contain info even higher that. In fact, there is no reason it cannot carry a full-range signal.

As an aside, players will not reroute LFE to the LARGE front channels when configured as having NO SUB. Instead, in this instance, it is dropped altogether.

1) Nowhere did I even mention the master volume on the receiver. I was talking about "getting up" to change the gain on the subwoofer (you probably know it as the volume knob on the side of the sub). That knob (assuming your sub is amplified) you normally "set and forget." If you calibrate the digital source first, then the knob on the sub will be value X. When you calibrate for analog next, the temptation will be to turn the knob higher than value X. This assumes that you have no more than +10dB available on the analog LFE input of the receiver. We already agreed that the signal is coming in -15dB from setting ANY speakers to SMALL for analog.

2) My Denon 3800BDCI player takes all the redirected bass from the SMALL speakers and gives it to the LARGE speakers. Only question is if the .1 channel is sent also when SW is NO. This player has the guts of the Denon 4308 receiver so it may do it.

1) Nowhere did I even mention the master volume on the receiver. I was talking about "getting up" to change the gain on the subwoofer (you probably know it as the volume knob on the side of the sub). That knob (assuming your sub is amplified) you normally "set and forget." If you calibrate the digital source first, then the knob on the sub will be value X. When you calibrate for analog next, the temptation will be to turn the knob higher than value X. This assumes that you have no more than +10dB available on the analog LFE input of the receiver. We already agreed that the signal is coming in -15dB from setting ANY speakers to SMALL for analog.There is no reason at all to touch the sub. Unless the gains on the player's analog outs and/or the receiver's analog ins make a strikingly huge difference, the 15dB is easy enough to 'find'. With a player that has trims that can be adjusted from "-10.0" to "+10.0" dB, you have 20dB of leeway right there. Add the capability to adjust the receiver's analog inputs an additional 10dB and there is 30dB of leeway there if you needed it (which you won't ). If you have already adjusted the player's level trims appropriately to account for the 15dB difference, the signal will not be "coming in -15dB". Everything will be hunky-dory.


2) My Denon 3800BDCI player takes all the redirected bass from the SMALL speakers and gives it to the LARGE speakers. Only question is if the .1 channel is sent also when SW is NO. This player has the guts of the Denon 4308 receiver so it may do it.It is possible as I have, of course, not checked every single player. If you have a disc that has what you know to be pure LFE material on it you can check this very easily. On AVIA the track that is entitled (I think) "Low Frequency Sweep; LFE" is encoded entirely in the LFE channel. Set you player up with NO SUB and set all the channels to LARGE. Play this track. If you hear it from your LARGE fronts, then your player is rerouting the LFE channel to the LARGE fronts. Otherwise, it is not.

BTW, I believe that this 'dropped LFE' on all DVD players (not just universal players) is mandated by Dolby. At least it once was. The reason being so that when a player is connected directly to a TV via a 2-channel analog connection, the LFE channel does not have to be amplified and reproduced, in addition to the L/R channels, by an amplifier and speakers that are wholly incapable of doing so satisfactorily.

I do not know about your player but, AFAIK, unless it has a specific setting to do so, a 4308 only reroutes bass from SMALL channels to the LARGE front channels if it is set up as having NO SUB. Otherwise, it is always mixed in with the LFE channel and redirected to the sub out.

There is no reason at all to touch the sub. Unless the gains on the player's analog outs and/or the receiver's analog ins make a strikingly huge difference, the 15dB is easy enough to 'find'. With a player that has trims that can be adjusted from "-10.0" to "+10.0" dB, you have 20dB of leeway right there. Add the capability to adjust the receiver's analog inputs an additional 10dB and there is 30dB of leeway there if you needed it (which you won't ). If you have already adjusted the player's level trims appropriately to account for the 15dB difference, the signal will not be "coming in -15dB". Everything will be hunky-dory.

The reason I even brought up the volume knob on the sub was because of scsiraid's reply below. scsciraid clearly states that according to the 3802 manual, there is no capability of increasing the dB on an analog SW input. Then the only source of amplification for the LFE channel becomes that volume knob on the sub for the analog signal. I have not verified the 3802 manual myself; just going by what scsiraid said...

No.

1) With speakers set to small in the player, the player will reduce the subwoofer output by 15db. Your receiver should have an option to boost the Analog Subwoofer input by 10 or 15db. You should select 15db.

2) The receiver bass management settings is not the place to compensate for the 10/15db subwoofer attenuation as it will mess up all your other digital sources.

EDIT: I checked your receiver manual http://www.usa.denon.com/AVR3802_1082_OwnersManual.pdf and it looks like your receiver is like my old Denon 4800 and doesnt have the ability to add the required gain to the subwoofer input. SOL.... You can turn up the sub but it will mess up all the other sources. Im not sure if the multichannel level controls will do anything to the external inputs. You might have to do as I did and get a new receiver.

The reason I even brought up the volume knob on the sub was because of scsiraid's reply below. scsciraid clearly states that according to the 3802 manual, there is no capability of increasing the dB on an analog SW input. Then the only source of amplification for the LFE channel becomes that volume knob on the sub for the analog signal. I have not verified the 3802 manual myself; just going by what scsiraid said...That there is no SW boost on the 3802 does not mean that its multichannel analog input level trims can't be adjusted, although it may not have that capability, either. But, I pointed out clearly how the 15dB difference can very most likely be achieved with only the player's level trims. I even went to the trouble of providing an example. So, even if there is no way to boost the SW level at the receiver with either a specific SW boost setting or more generally with the multichannel analog input level trims, unless the disparity is more than can be covered by the player's level trims, a proper calibration can be achieved without ever having to touch the subwoofer's volume knob.

That there is no SW boost on the 3802 does not mean that its multichannel analog input level trims can't be adjusted, although it may not have that capability, either. But, I pointed out clearly how the 15dB difference can very most likely be achieved with only the player's level trims. I even went to the trouble of providing an example. So, even if there is no way to boost the SW level at the receiver with either a specific SW boost setting or more generally with the multichannel analog input level trims, unless the disparity is more than can be covered by the player's level trims, a proper calibration can be achieved without ever having to touch the subwoofer's volume knob.

Page 34 of the Panasonic BD55 manual states the following channel levels are available for the analog out:

Fronts = 0 to -6dB
Center and Surround Speakers = 0 to -12dB

There is no mention of adjustment for the LFE channel. Perhaps another BD55 analog user can step in and help Nick P further but it is my belief that the calibration should be done as I first recommended.

sivadselim, I understand the overall idea is to help someone out but some of your statements did not take equipment limitation into consideration. Probably under most circumstances you would be right but it doesn't hurt to "dig a little deeper." scsiraid had the right idea by looking into the user manual to find the solution.

Well, my new Panasonic 55 arrived today and all is well.

The reason I even brought up the volume knob on the sub was because of scsiraid's reply below. scsciraid clearly states that according to the 3802 manual, there is no capability of increasing the dB on an analog SW input.

There is no SW boost in the 3802 but the SW trim level can be adjusted.

That there is no SW boost on the 3802 does not mean that its multichannel analog input level trims can't be adjusted, although it may not have that capability, either.

It does and I did. :)

...a proper calibration can be achieved without ever having to touch the subwoofer's volume knob.

Very true as this is what I did to both the digital in and analog in.

There is no mention of adjustment for the LFE channel.

The LFE can be adjusted in the Panny player but I found it to be not necessary.

Perhaps another BD55 analog user can step in and help Nick P further

I'm good, really I am. I have a full grasp on the whole thing now. I wasn't too terribley confused in the first place. This was my first experience with hooking up a player via analog out and I just needed a few minor things explained. :)

Page 34 of the Panasonic BD55 manual states the following channel levels are available for the analog out:

Fronts = 0 to -6dB
Center and Surround Speakers = 0 to -12dB

There is no mention of adjustment for the LFE channel. Perhaps another BD55 analog user can step in and help Nick P further but it is my belief that the calibration should be done as I first recommended.

sivadselim, I understand the overall idea is to help someone out but some of your statements did not take equipment limitation into consideration. Probably under most circumstances you would be right but it doesn't hurt to "dig a little deeper." scsiraid had the right idea by looking into the user manual to find the solution.Apparently, according to Nick P., it's all good, but you DO have a point, EWL5. Those trims do not allow much leeway, do they? Especially if there is no way to adjust the subwoofer out level trim (remember, it's NOT the LFE ;)).

But I had said...........
So, even if there is no way to boost the SW level at the receiver with either a specific SW boost setting or more generally with the multichannel analog input level trims, unless the disparity is more than can be covered by the player's level trims, a proper calibration can be achieved without ever having to touch the subwoofer's volume knob.
..........so I HAD covered my butt a bit. ;)

Apparently, according to Nick P., it's all good, but you DO have a point, EWL5. Those trims do not allow much leeway, do they? Especially if there is no way to adjust the subwoofer out level trim (remember, it's NOT the LFE ;)).

But I had said...........

..........so I HAD covered my butt a bit. ;)

It's all good. Everything turned out ok for Nick in the end.

I will use the phrase "redirected bass" since I agree the LFE .1 channel probably can never be redirected and is probably dropped altogether when SW is NO.

The only time LFE is redirected is when a processor is set up as having NO SUB. In this case, the LFE channel is redirected to the LARGE front channels. The LFE channel can contain info as high as 120Hz, which is a common cutoff point used by engineers. But it can contain info even higher that. In fact, there is no reason it cannot carry a full-range signal.

As an aside, players will not reroute LFE to the LARGE front channels when configured as having NO SUB. Instead, in this instance, it is dropped altogether.

Now I'm confused. Are you saying that receivers will re-route LFE to the main L/R speakers if there's no sub, but players will drop the LFE if there's no sub?

Now I'm confused. Are you saying that receivers will re-route LFE to the main L/R speakers if there's no sub, but players will drop the LFE if there's no sub?Yes, that is exactly what I am saying. When configured as having NO SUB, a receiver will reroute the LFE channel to the front L/R channels. When configured as having NO SUB, a multichannel universal player will not reroute the LFE channel to the front L/R channel analog outputs. Instead, it is discarded. With a non-multichannel, standard DVD player, the LFE channel is also discarded when the player downmixes LFE-channel containing material for 2-channel analog output.

The main implication here, unfortunately, is that it is not possible to properly utilize a multichannel analog connected universal player in a 5.0 system.

"Why do players drop the LFE channel" you may be thinking. This is a Dolby specification that is intended to prevent the passage of the LFE channel from a player via a direct 2-channel analog connection to a television's speakers. Most televisions are equipped with neither an amplifier nor speakers that are capable of reproducing the LFE channel appropriately.

Yes, that is exactly what I am saying. When configured as having NO SUB, a receiver will reroute the LFE channel to the front L/R channels. When configured as having NO SUB, a multichannel universal player will not reroute the LFE channel to the front L/R channel analog outputs. Instead, it is discarded. With a non-multichannel, standard DVD player, the LFE channel is also discarded when the player downmixes LFE-channel containing material for 2-channel analog output.

The main implication here, unfortunately, is that it is not possible to properly utilize a multichannel analog connected universal player in a 5.0 system.

"Why do players drop the LFE channel" you may be thinking. This is a Dolby specification that is intended to prevent the passage of the LFE channel from a player via a direct 2-channel analog connection to a television's speakers. Most televisions are equipped with neither an amplifier nor speakers that are capable of reproducing the LFE channel appropriately.

I guess that makes sense. *sigh* Buying home audio gear was so much easier thirty years ago.

Yes, that is exactly what I am saying. When configured as having NO SUB, a receiver will reroute the LFE channel to the front L/R channels. When configured as having NO SUB, a multichannel universal player will not reroute the LFE channel to the front L/R channel analog outputs. Instead, it is discarded. With a non-multichannel, standard DVD player, the LFE channel is also discarded when the player downmixes LFE-channel containing material for 2-channel analog output.

The main implication here, unfortunately, is that it is not possible to properly utilize a multichannel analog connected universal player in a 5.0 system.

"Why do players drop the LFE channel" you may be thinking. This is a Dolby specification that is intended to prevent the passage of the LFE channel from a player via a direct 2-channel analog connection to a television's speakers. Most televisions are equipped with neither an amplifier nor speakers that are capable of reproducing the LFE channel appropriately.

Oppo indicates that their 983 DVD player does in fact steer LFE to the mains when configured as Subwoofer = NO. Dont know about their other players.

Oppo indicates that their 983 DVD player does in fact steer LFE to the mains when configured as Subwoofer = NO. Dont know about their other players.

The Oppo 983 manual states (p. 48, Downmix Mode): "Stereo - This mode down-mixes decoded multi-channel (5.1ch) audio to 2-channel stereo output. For original stereo content the output will still be stereo. For original multi-channel content the surround and center channels will be mixed with the left and right front channels. Recommended for use with TV sets or stereo receiver/amplifiers."

While it doesn't explicitly state that the LFE is dropped, it doesn't say that it is mixed into the L/R channels. They could be a little clearer on the subject.

The Oppo 983 manual states (p. 48, Downmix Mode): "Stereo - This mode down-mixes decoded multi-channel (5.1ch) audio to 2-channel stereo output. For original stereo content the output will still be stereo. For original multi-channel content the surround and center channels will be mixed with the left and right front channels. Recommended for use with TV sets or stereo receiver/amplifiers."

While it doesn't explicitly state that the LFE is dropped, it doesn't say that it is mixed into the L/R channels. They could be a little clearer on the subject.


Well, you're talking about Downmix Mode, and he was talking about Sub=NO. Those are two independent settings. It's certainly possible to set sub=NO without using Downmix Mode, in the Oppo models. It makes sense not to use LFE in the Downmix Mode (anticipating its primary use with TV speakers), but as you see, thre are situations where you would want to keep the LFE too, and reroute it to fronts.

Sivadselim's post was the first I'd ever heard that claimed no universal player will reroute LFE to mains. It may well be true, but with things like 'Downmix Mode' in existence for years, in even the earliest multichannel DVD players I owned, I don't see why Dolby would mandate discarding LFE in all cases where sub=NO.

Well, you're talking about Downmix Mode, and he was talking about Sub=NO. Those are two independent settings. It's certainly possible to set sub=NO without using Downmix Mode, in the Oppo models. It makes sense not to use LFE in the Downmix Mode (anticipating its primary use with TV speakers), but as you see, thre are situations where you would want to keep the LFE too, and reroute it to fronts.

Sivadselim's post was the first I'd ever heard that claimed no universal player will reroute LFE to mains. It may well be true, but with things like 'Downmix Mode' in existence for years, in even the earliest multichannel DVD players I owned, I don't see why Dolby would mandate discarding LFE in all cases where sub=NO.

My bad. I was thrown off by sivadselim's "...to prevent the passage of the LFE channel from a player via a direct 2-channel analog connection to a television's speakers." I scanned the manual looking for LFE info, and by the time I found it I forgot what the question was :-O

A further scan of the manual and I can't find where it says anything about what turning off the subwoofer does, other than turning off the subwoofer, which would seem to indicate that the LFE is discarded.

*sigh* Buying audio equipment was much easier 30 years ago.

Sivadselim's post was the first I'd ever heard that claimed no universal player will reroute LFE to mains. It may well be true, but with things like 'Downmix Mode' in existence for years, in even the earliest multichannel DVD players I owned, I don't see why Dolby would mandate discarding LFE in all cases where sub=NO.I have been pointing this out for several years, now, and no one has been able to refute it. Many people have scurried off to confirm this only to find out that, unfortunately, their universal player is dropping the LFE channel. But that doesn't mean that ALL universal players drop the LFE channel. I have yet to hear of one that doesn't. I suspect that there may be some very high-end players that treat the LFE channel differently. But it is simple enough to test what a particular player does if you have access to a track that you KNOW is specifically encoded in the LFE channel and LFE channel only. With AVIA this would be the LFE tone that is used for the subwoofer in the speaker channel identification track as well as the "Low Frequency Sweep; LFE" track, which is the best track to use. If you set the SUB=NO and cannot hear the LFE channel-encoded material coming from the front speakers, then it is not being rerouted. But be aware that the subwoofer calibration tracks on AVIA are NOT encoded in the LFE channel, and instead are simply encoded in the main channels and intended to be bass-managed. So, the subwoofer calibration tones are NOT at all useful for verifying what happens to the LFE channel.

As far as I know, if you set a universal player up as SUB=NO, no matter how many main channels you are using, the LFE channel will be dropped. I do not know what a specific "Downmix" mode does, but I suspect it will do the same thing that a standard 2-channel DVD player would do when it plays back a 5.1 soundtrack and passes it via its analog outputs; drop the LFE channel. How 2-channel players treat multichannel (i.e. 5.1 material) content is different than the way that a universal player treats such content. My experience with 2 universal players' analog outs and DVD-A playback has been that, without a downmix mode used, when the player is setup as having only 2 front speakers, upon playback of a 5.1 DVD-A soundtrack, only the front 2 channels are reproduced. The other main channels of the 5.1 soundtrack are simply not reproduced. I assume that the same would apply to DD/DTS5.1 soundtracks. So, that is why a specific "downmix mode" is necessary.

Some universal players have a separate pair of R/L-only analog outs which are completely separate from the multichannel analog output cluster and are not affected by any of the channel settings that apply to the multichannel analog outs. These outputs will behave identically to those of a standard 2-channel DVD player and multichannel content is automatically downmixed and the LFE channel is dropped. However, many players have these 2 separate R/L outputs yet they are NOT treated independently of the front L/R channels of the multichannel analog output cluster. Instead, any settings, such as bass management, that are applied to the front R/L channels of the multichannel cluster are also applied to these 2 R/L-only outputs. So, you have to check what your particular player does with these 2 outputs.

Realize that with most movie soundtracks much of what is mixed into the LFE channel will also be mixed, at least in some measure, into the main channels, as well. So, all is not lost when the LFE channel is dropped. I have heard plenty of 2-channel systems with 2-channel-only analog connections that produced quite a bit of low-end energy.

With multichannel SACD and DVD-A passed via multichannel analog connections, though, and SUB=NO, I suspect the lack of an LFE channel MAY be more noticeable as in most cases, unless a soundtrack is specifically recorded for multichannel playback, the LFE channel is derived from the 2 original stereo tracks and placed into the LFE channel. Of course, for a 2-channel-only setup, almost all SACDs and most DVD-As have a specifically encoded 2-channel track that will contain all of the material that is intended to be heard, so this is not an issue.

Likewise, some (fewer than you realize) DVD movies will also include a specifically-mixed 2-channel track that MAY contain some of the low-end material that would have otherwise been encoded specifically into the LFE track in the multichannel soundtrack. Or, these stereo tracks could simply contain very similar content to what would be reproduced in 2-channel by a player when it downmixes a 5.1 mix for 2-channel analog output. Either way, what is encoded into a specifically-mixed 2-channel DVD movie soundtrack should be expected to contain exactly what an engineer intended it to contain and should provide for satisfactory 2-channel experience.

If you do a search, you will find that there have been efforts (apparently successful) at properly rerouting and merging a universal player's subwoofer channel output back into the front L/R channels using Y-adapters and attenuators. This allows one to leave the player setup as SUB=YES so that the LFE channel is preserved.

Also, as I pointed out, many people have used their universal player with analog connections, setup as SUB=NO, in a multichannel system, and never even realized that their LFE channel was missing.


How 2-channel analog players treat multichannel (i.e. 5.1 material) content is different than the way that a universal player treats such content. My experience with 2 universal players' analog outs and DVD-A playback has been that, without a downmix mode used, when the player is setup as having only 2 front speakers, upon playback, only the front 2 channels are reproduced

*sigh* Buying audio equipment was much easier 30 years ago.What is your particular situation that makes this dropped LFE channel a cause for concern?

My intent is not to stir things up or take sides (I'm here to learn, just like everybody else), but in any debate, sivadselim, it's up to the person making an argument to prove it; it's not up to someone else to refute it. That said, I think that playing an LFE track with SUBWOOFER set to NO is a great test of the theory, altho it may only be valid for the specific model of disc player used for the test. I did a search for "LFE" in the Dolby Digital Professional Encoding Guidelines (http://www.beussery.com/pdf/beussery.dolby.pdf) and there was no reference, one way or the other, to what happens if SUBWOOFER is set to off in a disc player, but it did mention (generically) that LFE is redirected to the main L/R speakers:

[p. 95] - "4.11.3 Bass Management
Bass management allows the user to redirect low-frequency information from any of the five main speakers to the subwoofer or conversely, if there is no subwoofer the LFE information can be redirected to the left and right speakers. This is important as the vast majority of consumer home theater speaker systems require some degree of bass management since typically none of the five main speakers are designed to reproduce frequencies below 80 Hz. The DP562 provides the same bass management functions as a consumer Dolby Digital decoder. Even when monitoring with fullrange main speakers that require no bass management, this function is useful for checking how low frequencies redirected from any of the main channels may interact with the LFE channel information."

No mention is made of different decoders being required (or used) in receivers versus disc players.

What is your particular situation that makes this dropped LFE channel a cause for concern?

It's not a concern. I was just reading this thread (I'm buying a new receiver soon and doing research here) and was puzzled by your statement that disc players handle the lack of a sub differently than a receiver does. As I've said, I'm not taking sides or trying to stir things up... just trying to learn.

I have been pointing this out for several years, now, and no one has been able to refute it. Many people have scurried off to confirm this only to find out that, unfortunately, their universal player is dropping the LFE channel. But that doesn't mean that ALL universal players drop the LFE channel. I have yet to hear of one that doesn't. I suspect that there may be some very high-end players that treat the LFE channel differently.


OK, that's a slightly different, and more nuanced, claim. I have no issue with that.

FWIW I *think* I have checked this with an Oppo 970 player in the past and found it to be as you say, but I'd have to look up the post or do it again, to confirm (for an Oppo 970). I also recall testing this for a Pioneer uni-player, and finding that it did not reroute LFE to mains.

My intent is not to stir things up or take sides (I'm here to learn, just like everybody else), but in any debate, sivadselim, it's up to the person making an argument to prove it; it's not up to someone else to refute it. That said, I think that playing an LFE track with SUBWOOFER set to NO is a great test of the theory, altho it may only be valid for the specific model of disc player used for the test. I did a search for "LFE" in the Dolby Digital Professional Encoding Guidelines (http://www.beussery.com/pdf/beussery.dolby.pdf) and there was no reference, one way or the other, to what happens if SUBWOOFER is set to off in a disc player, but it did mention (generically) that LFE is redirected to the main L/R speakers:

[p. 95] - "4.11.3 Bass Management
Bass management allows the user to redirect low-frequency information from any of the five main speakers to the subwoofer or conversely, if there is no subwoofer the LFE information can be redirected to the left and right speakers. This is important as the vast majority of consumer home theater speaker systems require some degree of bass management since typically none of the five main speakers are designed to reproduce frequencies below 80 Hz. The DP562 provides the same bass management functions as a consumer Dolby Digital decoder. Even when monitoring with fullrange main speakers that require no bass management, this function is useful for checking how low frequencies redirected from any of the main channels may interact with the LFE channel information."

No mention is made of different decoders being required (or used) in receivers versus disc players.I'm not arguing. :)

Yes, those guidelines are those which are relevant to the processors found in most receivers. But I can very easily track down the Dolby white papers which DO specify that the LFE channel be dropped when 5.1 soundtracks are downmixed for 2-channel analog output by standard DVD players. This IS irrefutable. I'll post it back. For the reason I stated, ALL standard 2-channel DVD players drop the LFE channel when downmixing 5.1 soundtracks. Realize that, at least in the past, most standard DVD players were simply connected directly to users' televisions via a 2-channel analog connection. Most users of DVD players did/do NOT have HT systems. Hence the need, as I pointed out, to drop the LFE channel.

The only thing that is not entirely clear is that ALL universal players, when configured as having NO SUB, drop the LFE channel similarly to the way that a 2-channel player does when downmixing an LFE-containing soundtrack. But those universal players that I have experience with (and it is only 3) drop it, as do those for which people have reported back or confirmed the same. Still, obviously, this in no way confirms that EVERY universal player will drop the LFE channel when configured as having NO SUB. But I have yet to hear of one that doesn't.


I have edited my long post a few posts up to include quite a bit more clarifying information as well as correct some incorrect information I had included regarding universal player's behaviors.

You start off by measuring the centre channel first providing of course it’s a matching the same as the left and right otherwise what’s the point. then you go to the sub bass channel that should be placed below the centre channel.

OK, that's a slightly different, and more nuanced, claim. I have no issue with that.

FWIW I *think* I have checked this with an Oppo 970 player in the past and found it to be as you say, but I'd have to look up the post or do it again, to confirm (for an Oppo 970). I also recall testing this for a Pioneer uni-player, and finding that it did not reroute LFE to mains.Obviously, I cannot have tested every single universal player. I HAVE solicited, for informational purposes, that others do so with their own players and to please report the results of their findings. No one has ever come back to say that their LFE channel IS rerouted. As I pointed out above, I only have experience with 3 players; a Denon 2200, a Denon 757, and an OPPO 980. All of these players dropped the LFE channel when configured as having NO SUB.

Of course not many know this you measure the centre channel first!

I'm not arguing. :)

Yes, those guidelines are those which are relevant to the processors found in most receivers. But I can very easily track down the Dolby white papers which DO specify that the LFE channel be dropped when 5.1 soundtracks are downmixed for 2-channel analog output by standard DVD players. This IS irrefutable. I'll post it back. For the reason I stated, ALL standard 2-channel DVD players drop the LFE channel when downmixing 5.1 soundtracks. Realize that, at least in the past, most standard DVD players were simply connected directly to users' televisions via a 2-channel analog connection. Most users of DVD players did/do NOT have HT systems. Hence the need, as I pointed out, to drop the LFE channel.

The only thing that is not entirely clear is that ALL universal players, when configured as having NO SUB, drop the LFE channel similarly to the way that a 2-channel player does when downmixing an LFE-containing soundtrack. But those universal players that I have experience with (and it is only 3) drop it, as do those for which people have reported back or confirmed the same. Still, obviously, this in no way confirms that EVERY universal player will drop the LFE channel when configured as having NO SUB. But I have yet to hear of one that doesn't.


I have edited my long post a few posts up to include quite a bit more clarifying information as well as correct some incorrect information I had included regarding universal player's behaviors.

I agree that downmixing (or playing a 5.1 soundtrack thru a stereo-only disc player) always results in the LFE channel being discarded (I even supplied a reference to the relevant section of the Oppo 983 manual). Nobody was refuting that. Also, it is clearly stated in the Dolby Digital Professional Encoding Guidelines. What is not so clear is if there is a difference in the way the LFE channel is handled, in a receiver versus a disc player, when the subwoofer is set to OFF in a 5.1 system. The only thing that the DDPEG says is that the decoding circuit will reroute LFE to the main L/R speakers, and makes no mention of receivers handling this differently than disc players do, or different circuitry used in receivers versus disc players. Again, I don't know one way or the other and am not trying to take sides.

What is not so clear is if there is a difference in the way the LFE channel is handled, in a receiver versus a disc player, when the subwoofer is set to OFF in a 5.1 system. The only thing that the DDPEG says is that the decoding circuit will reroute LFE to the main L/R speakers, and makes no mention of receivers handling this differently than disc players do, or different circuitry used in receivers versus disc players. Again, I don't know one way or the other and am not trying to take sides.I agree. There is nothing that I have seen "on paper" that will definitively show that this is the way that ALL universal DVD players will behave. But, as I pointed out, I have yet to see otherwise, and I have seen the same thing that I am saying stated elsewhere on several occasions. I didn't make it up nor decide it was fact based upon my limited experience. If you do some web searches you will find some discussion of this and they all point in the same direction; the LFE channel is dropped when the player is setup as having NO SUB. I think that this is just an unfortunate carry-over from the Dolby specification that the LFE channel be dropped upon downmix for 2-channel output. That it seemingly occurs across the board, in all universal players, is due to the fact that the few multichannel chipsets (if there even IS more than one) that are available for DVD players, all behave identically. As I said, there may very well be a higher-end player that incorporates a chipset that does not behave this way.

As an aside, HERE (http://www.grammy.com/pdfs/recording_academy/producers_and_engineers/5_1_rec.pdf) is a nice document to save on your hard drive in addition to the Dolby Guidelines.

In the Oppo owner's thread, someone who owns both the 980 and 983 players confirmed that they both discard the LFE channel when the subwoofer is set to off.

This is a table from the Dolby Guidelines:

http://home.comcast.net/~schiz/multi DVD.jpg




I'm still trying to figure out what "* Simplified design option" refers to.

No that’s no good you need LFE.1 I mean (Baby Boom) active with six-track Dolby stereo and sub bass active with Dolby stereo 4:2:4 otherwise you might as well get a Dolby CP200. This can do a whole lot more.

http://www.kinoteam.de/kt/image/big/dol_cp200_offen.jpghttp://farm3.static.flickr.com/2374/1960894817_49f8450e98.jpg?v=0

I like the Dolby stereo format codes there so delicious.:p

Format
Name
Description

01
35mm Optical Academy
Mono with Academy curve

02
35mm Optical Dolby
Wide range mono with A-type Dolby NR

03
35mm Optical Dolby Stereo/No Surround
SVA with A-type Dolby NR, no surround

04
35mm Optical Dolby A
SVA with A-type Dolby NR and surround

05
35mm Optical Dolby SR
SVA with SR-type Dolby NR and surround

09
35mm Separate Magnetic Dolby ono /Mag
Wide range mono with A-type Dolby NR, magnetic input

10
35mm Optical Dolby Digital
SR·D with SR-type SVA fallback (05)

11
35mm Separate Magnetic Mono/Mag/Wide
Wide range mono, no NR, magnetic input

13
35mm Dolby Digital Surround EX
SR·D & left, center back suround with SR-type SVA fallback (05

14
35mm Separate Magnetic Mono/Mag/NR
Mono A-type NR, Academy curve & magnetic input

15
35mm Separate Magnetic Mono/Mag
Mono Academy curve with magnetic input, no NR

16
35mm Separate Magnetic PM-SR
Printmaster, SR-type Dolby NR

17
35mm Separate Magnetic PM-A
Printmaster, A-type Dolby NR

20
35mm Composite Magnetic 4-Track
Standard 4-track, no NR, no surround

22
35mm Composite Magnetic 4-Track
Standard 4-track, no NR, magnetic filter

23
35mm Composite Magnetic 4-Track
Wide range 4-track with A-type Dolby NR, no surround

24
35mm Composite Magnetic 4-Track
Wide range 4-track with A-type Dolby NR and surround

40
70mm 6-Track (Todd-AO)
Standard 6-track with magnetic filters, no NR

41
70mm Dolby Wide
Wide range 6-track with A-type Dolby NR

42
70mm Dolby Baby Boom
6-track A-type Dolby NR, Baby Boom tracks 2 & 4

43
70mm Dolby Stereo Surround
6-track A-type Dolby NR, Baby Boom & split surrounds

44
70mm Dolby Wide
Wide range 6-track with SR-type Dolby NR

45
70mm Dolby Baby Boom
6-track SR-type Dolby NR, Baby Boom tracks 2 & 4

46
70mm Dolby Stereo Surround
6-track SR-type NR, Baby Boom & split surrounds

50
Special Venue
IMAX, Showscan etc.

60
Non-sync 1
Non-synchronous input source 1

61
Non-sync 2
Non-synchronous input source 2

62
Non-sync 3
Non-synchronous input source 3

64
Mic
Microphone

68
Dolby tone/test
Dolby test tone

I have a pioneer bdp51 bluray player connected to a kenwood vr410 receiver through the multichannel analogs. I am trying to calibrate the system and I have an SPL meter.

The bluray player allows you to set the dB level outputs on each of the 5.1 channels. So does the vr410. My understanding is that the bdp51 will internally decode all the new dac's and thus, when the signal is sent to the receiver's multichannel analogs, no further decoding is done by the receiver.

My question is then, what should the settings be on the bluray player? What settings should I have the receiver set to when using the SPL meter and the pink noise signal?

Any advice will be greatly appreciated.

I have a pioneer bdp51 bluray player connected to a kenwood vr410 receiver through the multichannel analogs...what should the settings be on the bluray player? What settings should I have the receiver set to when using the SPL meter and the pink noise signal?...
The player is doing all the decoding and just sending over 6-ch analog to the receiver.

Given a choice between channel trim levels on the player vs receiver, begin with the player controls flat -- no boost or cut. Trim with the receiver channel levels.

If the player can output pink noise, that's possibly a more representative signal path than using receiver-generated pink noise.

Ideally you'd use a Blu-Ray calibration disc like "DVE HD Basics" to produce pink noise, which extends the signal path backwards to the disc itself. However there have been some standardization issues about how pink noise is mastered on the LFE track of some discs. Don't know what the current situation is with DVE in this regard.

Make sure any kind of "night mode" or dynamic range control is disabled on the player and receiver. The receiver should be set to "multi-channel analog input", or similar.

However, if you want the high resolution sound that are in some games and Bluray movies in the form of PCM, then even if you set the PS3 HDMI output to bitstream, it will send a PCM signal since that is the original data in the disk. The 247 has handles the PCM fine for sound quality and it sounds great, but it does not apply the 10dB boost on the LFE channel. So, the PCM sound track in the movies lack the punch in the explosions, etc.

I hope this explanation helps.
Thanks for great info. So, is there any workaround? Also, is it then best to set the PS3 to output bitstream to the avr247? or PCM. I use it almost 100% for movies and not games. Will it matter if the movie has TrueHD?

Thanks

a pity this isn;t updated anymore. The Pioneer VSX74txvi firmware fix for the LFE bug has been out for ages now.

analog audio question

Hi,
I am using PS3 as player to decode PCM uncompressed & DD HT & DTS MA and send it as multi PCM via HDMI. This is connected to Onkyo 905 receiver. In the receiver, LFE channel for MPCM is set as 0 (+10db gain). I have options to set it as -10db & -20db.

Is the LFE channel from the player sent as -10db as encoded or is it already boosted by 10db in decoding? Should the setting in my AVR be 0 or -10?

Hi,
I am using PS3 as player to decode PCM uncompressed & DD HT & DTS MA and send it as multi PCM via HDMI. This is connected to Onkyo 905 receiver. In the receiver, LFE channel for MPCM is set as 0 (+10db gain). I have options to set it as -10db & -20db.

Is the LFE channel from the player sent as -10db as encoded or is it already boosted by 10db in decoding? Should the setting in my AVR be 0 or -10?

The PS3 does NOT apply 10dB boost before sending LPCM to receiver. It is the receiver's job to do that. As far as I understand it, the boost should be applied in the analog domain and not in the digital domain. That is why the receiver has to do it at least with the PS3.

so my bd-55 DOES not redirect LFE to large front and lefts when sub is set to no. This sucks as I don't have a sub but use large main speakers with built in subs. Am I really missing out big time or is the LFE encoded track 9 times out of 10 duplicated to the front left and rights anyway?

so my bd-55 DOES not redirect LFE to large front and lefts when sub is set to no. This sucks as I don't have a sub but use large main speakers with built in subs. Am I really missing out big time or is the LFE encoded track 9 times out of 10 duplicated to the front left and rights anyway?

You are missing out big time. The biggest and loudest bass is supposed to come out of the LFE channel. Do your mains have external sub inputs? If so, you could have the sub-out of your receiver go into the mains.