LFE, subwoofers and interconnects explained [Text View]

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KMO

11-09-06, 12:48 PM

It's clear that the introduction of HD DVD has prompted many to hook up their HD DVD/BluRay player to their amplifier via a multichannel connection. And this has introduced them to a world of calibration pain caused by the LFE (Low Frequency Effects) channel. Many have previously encountered this with SACD and DVD-Audio, but now a mass of newcomers need guidance.

So, here's my attempt for a definitive guide to what's what in the exciting world of LFE. Any feedback welcome.

Executive summary
Many current receivers do not handle LFE over HDMI correctly. See the bottom for a list of good and bad receivers. Players are also considered. Read on for the explanation.

Introduction
Initially, I'm only going to consider LFE in a system without bass management.

The LFE channel was originally found on multi-channel film recording formats, such as Dolby Stereo 70 mm Six Track. The purpose was to make more room for loud explosions, rumbles etc. The normal sound channels were calibrated so they could produce up to about 105dB SPL of output. Pretty loud, but not quite enough for the sort of low-frequency effects that you feel as much as hear.

So, to increase the impact, they added an extra channel, dedicated to low frequency effects, to be sent to a dedicated subwoofer. And this channel was calibrated to play 10dB louder than the rest - it could output 115dB SPL of energy. And 10dB difference is quite a lot - it means a signal over 3 times the amplitude.

Calibration
This 10dB boost is achieved by calibration in the monitoring amplifiers at the studio; a full-scale LFE signal on the tape is set up to play 10dB louder than a full-scale signal on any other channel. The cost is increased noise - the channel has been turned up, so the general hiss and noise on the magnetic recording will also be 10dB louder. But this is not too much of a problem, as all sounds above 150Hz are filtered out anyway on playback. The channel is only handling low frequencies.

To reproduce the effect heard in the studio, cinema playback systems are also calibrated the same way - a 10dB boost is added to the LFE channel amplifier.

Calibration tests generally hide this 10dB difference; a basic pink noise test will contain a signal that should play at 75dB SPL for each channel. For the normal channels, that means a signal 30dB below full scale (105dB-30dB = 75dB), but for the LFE channel it is a signal 40dB below full scale (115dB-40dB = 75dB): 1/3 of the signal amplitude. If those test signals are used to calibrate the amplifier so they all output at 75dB SPL, then everything is set up okay. The LFE channel now has 10dB of extra headroom above the other channels and can produce the full 115dB SPL when required.

Interconnects
One important point is that the 10dB boost to the LFE is performed at the final amplification stage. The potential extra volume of the LFE channel could not pass through interconnects, analogue recordings or digital recordings without going over the specified limits by a factor of 3. This, indeed, is the whole raison d'être of the LFE channel. It's a channel where by convention everything is recorded 10dB low to make room for louder bangs.

So at all points in a system - analogue interconnects, PCM signals, encoded Dolby Digital - the LFE channel is "10dB too low". A 75dB SPL signal on the LFE channel will be 3 times, or 10dB, smaller than a 75dB SPL signal on the other channels. It will only sound correct when fed to an amplifier that amplifies LFE by 10dB more than it amplifies the other channels.

This 10dB difference is dictated by Dolby and DTS, and the international standard ITU-R BR.1384-1:The LFE channel is recorded with a level offset of –10 dB. This offset is compensated for in the reproduction system, where the LFE loudspeaker has an acoustic output (within its low frequency passband) of +10 dB with respect to the other channels.
In the home
The LFE channel progressed from early analogue magnetic formats, to the digital channel in cinematic versions of Dolby Digital, and in turn to the home versions of Dolby Digital, DTS and MPEG Multichannel found on DVDs.

The rules remain the same: the encoded LFE signal needs a 10dB boost. In receivers with integrated decoders, this is handled automatically in the internals, and the user is generally unaware of it. It is only when we try to connect amplifiers to external decoders that things can go wrong. Many receivers do not offer the necessary boost for LFE coming in from an external decoder.

LFE level adjustment
Some receivers with integrated decoders do offer an adjustment for the LFE level - an option to NOT boost the LFE by 10dB. This is needed for some early music mixes using DTS; the studio mixers, being unaccustomed to 5.1 production, hadn't calibrated their LFE channel 10dB high. Thus the recorded LFE signal on those discs is at equal level with the other channels, and doesn't require boosting.

The unboosted LFE option on the receiver is often called "LFE -10dB", with the standard boosted option being "LFE 0dB". Alternatively the options might be called "LFE 0dB" and "LFE +10dB". Whatever, the higher option is correct for films and almost all DD and DTS multichannel music. Since those early errors, both Dolby and DTS have specifed that LFE in music releases should be mixed for a 10dB LFE boost to match film soundtracks. However, SACD still differs... more on this below.

Bass redirection
When Dolby Digital and DTS reached the home, there was one important difference. Cinema speakers are MUCH bigger. A normal sound mix will generally contain deep bass in all the front channels, as well as low-frequency effects in the LFE channel. Home speakers usually don't handle deep bass that well, so it is usually advantageous to redirect bass from the main speakers to the subwoofer. Home DD and DTS receivers offer a bass management function to do this.

With bass management enabled, there is now an important distinction between "LFE" and "Subwoofer" channels. LFE specifically refers to the LFE channel of the original soundtrack. But the subwoofer channel contains both the LFE channel and redirected bass from the other channels.

Bass summing
A very important thing to bear in mind when redirecting bass is the 10dB calibration difference between the LFE and other channels. A combined subwoofer channel must be calculated as:

SW = LFE + Lower10dB(Redirected bass)
or equivalently
SW = Raise10dB(LFE) + Redirected bass
but not
SW = LFE + Redirected bass
This keeps the relative level of bass signals originating from the LFE and other channels consistent. If a piece of equipment gets this balance wrong, the error is uncorrectable further down the signal chain.

LFE vs SW (subwoofer) labelling
Equipment usually gets this labelling right. A receiver will have an SW pre-out, and an SW terminal on its multichannel analogue input. Multichannel outputs on players will include an SW terminal. This accurately reflects the fact that in general the player is expected to do bass management, so will be outputting LFE+redirected bass on that channel. And the SW input to the receiver will be passed straight to the SW pre-out - it expects bass management to have already been done.

LFE interconnects can usually only be found in the digital domain. This reflects the fact that when using digital connections, the receiver is expected to perform bass management. The player passes the LFE channel unaltered, without redirecting any bass. Plain LFE information is carried in DD and DTS bitstreams over SPDIF/TOSLINK, and in PCM or DSD streams over Denon Link, i.Link or HDMI.

Early DVD-Audio and SACD players did not offer any bass management for PCM or DSD, so in effect they only offered an analogue LFE out. This meant they could not be easily integrated into a conventional system with a receiver that only had an SW input, and no bass management for multichannel input. This lead to a market for separate bass management devices, such as the Outlaw ICBM.

Current players now generally offer bass management for all formats on their multichannel outputs.

SW analogue output from players
Okay, what level should the subwoofer output be? If it were just the LFE track, then you'd expect it, as discussed above, to be 10dB lower than the other channels to fit the 10dB higher maximum LFE output.

But if the player is performing bass management, then the subwoofer output also has to contain redirected bass; this extra signal could push the signal back above its nominal limit. To prevent overloading their output, or the receiver's input, players with bass management conventionally lower the SW output by a further 5dB. (This 5dB value is specified by Dolby, see references). Sometimes this 5dB drop switches in and out depending on whether bass management is being performed (ie if any speakers are set to SMALL).

The final SW output will typically be:

SW = LFE
or:

SW = Lower5dB(LFE + Lower10dB(Redirected bass)) = Lower5dB(LFE) + Lower15dB(Redirected bass)
So, in those two cases the SW output from the player will be respectively 10dB or 15dB lower than the other channels. A receiver should offer the ability to specifically boost the SW input on its multichannel analogue interface to compensate.

LFE digital output from players
When outputting a Dolby Digital or DTS bitstream from a player, the LFE channel remains encoded in the bitstream, untouched by the player. The receiver's decoder has the responsibility to boost the LFE by 10dB, and almost invariably they will get this right. DD and DTS remain the most foolproof way of transmitting LFE.

When outputting a PCM multichannel bitstream over Denon Link, i.Link, HDMI or similar, the LFE channel will be transmitted "as-is", and will need boosting by 10dB in the receiver. The receiver should do this automatically. If it fails to do this before performing bass management, then you will be unable to calibrate the system correctly - boosting the subwoofer to compensate will have the side effect of over-emphasising bass from other channels.

"DVD-Audio/HD DVD/Blu-ray's bass is too quiet"
No. They're mixed exactly the same way as Dolby Digital or DTS on DVD-Video. The LFE track is recorded 10dB low. People are only noticing a problem because they've switched from a DD/DTS bitstream link which works to a multichannel interconnect lacking the necessary 10dB-15dB boost. If they had been listening to DD or DTS decoded in the player through the multichannel interconnect they'd have seen the same problem. And the problem is that their receiver isn't boosting its SW/LFE input sufficiently.

It is not really an option for the player to boost its analogue SW output, as it would be in danger of overloading a receiver's input circuitry when a maximum volume LFE signal appeared - feeding a 6 volt signal into a nominally 2 volt input. You might get away with it if the amplifier was purely doing an analogue passthrough, but it would overload any receiver with multichannel ADCs.

And similarly the player absolutely cannot boost its digital LFE output. There's no headroom to do this.

"Super Audio CD's bass is too quiet"
Same basic answer as the previous section, except for one wrinkle: SACD doesn't actually use a 10dB boost for its LFE channel (which poses the question - why have it at all?)

To maintain compatibility, some multi-format SACD players apparently lower the LFE internally by 10dB, then carry on the rest of their processing as normal. This then leads to the output:

SW = Lower10dB(music LFE)
or

SW = Lower15dB(music LFE + Redirected bass)
So the net boost of 10dB or 15dB is still needed in the receiver to achieve correct playback, consistent with other formats.

Some players, usually SACD-only, do not do this 10dB adjustment, leading to the output

SW = music LFE
or

SW = Lower5dB(music LFE + Redirected bass)
This could arguably result in better quality, by making better use of the range on that input, but means the receiver has to have its SW input switched to +0dB or +5dB respectively just for SACD with that player - inconvenient if it's multiformat.

SACD over a digital interconnect
This is unclear, and will depend on the digital interconnect type. Normally one would expect digital output to be "raw". But what happens when the raw LFE doesn't need a boost, because it's come from SACD?

The full connection standards aren't publically available (eg CEA-861-D for HDMI). Is there a standard for LFE level over these connections? If there is, then the standard would be that LFE over digital interconnects should always need a +10dB boost at the receiver (as per ITU-R BS.775-2 and ITU-R BR.1384-1). Then any player outputting SACD data would have to attenuate its LFE by 10dB so the receiver could still apply a 10dB boost, as it does for DD+/DTS HD sourced data.

If there's no standard, or players vary, then a receiver may need an option to disable the 10dB boost. To be on the safe side, I'd recommend that receivers offer this switch, maybe by tying it to the "0dB/-10dB" setting for its internal DD and DTS decode.

Summary of requirements
In summary, here is what should be happening with each interconnect type:

Analogue 2-channel
Player should drop LFE channel and downmix other channels to 2-channel
Receiver should perform bass management
Analogue multichannel
Player should perform bass management
Player's SW output should be LFE (if no bass management), or Lower5dB(LFE) + Lower15dB(Redirected bass).
Player MUST take 10dB difference into account when redirecting bass. If wrong, the error is uncorrectable in the receiver.
Player's SW output will be 10dB or 15dB low (possibly 0dB or 5dB for some awkward SACD players).
Receiver should offer options to boost SW input by 0-15dB (a dedicated configurable setting for multichannel input).
Digital bitstream
Player passes DD or DTS bitstream to receiver unmodified.
Receiver decodes, boosts LFE by 10dB and performs bass management.
Receiver may offer option to not boost LFE (to cater for some early DTS music tracks).
Digital multichannel
Player decodes, and passes all channels to receiver as-is (but ideally SACD would be aligned with a 10dB LFE attenuation).
Player's LFE output will be 10dB low, (except maybe SACD).
Receiver must boost LFE by 10dB and perform bass management.
For SACD use only, receiver may offer option not to boost LFE, for players which don't attenuate LFE output for those formats.

References

The Misunderstood 0.1 LFE Channel in 5.1 Digital Surround Sound (http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_7_2/feature-article-misunderstood-lfe-channel-april-2000.html) - good article from Secrets of Home Theater & High Fidelity
Dolby 5.1-Channel Production Guidelines (http://www.dolby.com/assets/pdf/tech_library/L.mn.0002.5.1guide.pdf) (discusses the LFE channel and calibration)
Dolby Digital Professional Encoding Guidelines (http://www.dolby.com/assets/pdf/tech_library/46_DDEncodingGuidelines.pdf) (figure 3.2 illustrates simple bass management, and the 15dB gain)
ITU-R BS.775-2: Multichannel stereophonic sound system with and without accompanying picture
ITU-R BS.1384-1: Parameters for international exchange of multi-channel sound recordings with or without accompanying picture
CEA-861-D: A DTV Profile for Uncompressed High Speed Digital Interfaces

Known equipment behaviour
We can collect known equipment behaviour here. Please post your experiences, and I'll incorporate.

Receivers offering dedicated 0-15dB analogue SW gain
Denon AVR-2307CI, AVR-2807, AVR-3806, AVR-4306, AVR-4806(AVC-A11XV), AVR-4806CI(AVC-A11XVA): 0,5,10,15dB steps
Onkyo TX-SR604, TX-SR674, TX-SR702, TX-SR804E, TX-NR1000, TX-NR5000E: 0,5,10,15dB steps
Receivers offering dedicated analogue SW gain less than 15dB
Pioneer VSX-84TXSi/VSX-82TXSi(VSX-AX4ASi/VSX-AX2ASi): 0 or +10dB selectable
Pioneer VSX-74TXVi/VSX-72TXVi(VSX-AX4AVi/VSX-AX2AVi): 0 or +10dB selectable
Sony STR-DA5200ES: 0 or +10dB selectable
Marantz SR7001/SR8001: offers completely separate speaker level trims for 7.1 analogue input; SW -18dB to +12dB, others -12dB to +12dB
Receivers with no separate analogue SW gain
Marantz SR7200
Receivers boosting PCM LFE input by 10dB
Onkyo TX-NR1000, TX-NR5000E: can set +10dB, 0dB, -10dB, off; separate settings for PCM, DSD, DD, DTS and AAC
Onkyo TX-SR804E: can set +10dB, 0dB, -10dB, off; unified setting for PCM, DD and DTS
Denon AVR-2307CI, AVR-2807, AVR-3806, AVR-4306, AVR-4806CI(AVC-A11XVA): can set +10dB or 0dB; per-surround mode setting(?) - should allow separate settings for PCM, DSD, DD and DTS
Panasonic SA-XR700: no option, but appears to get it right
Yamaha RX-V1700/RX-V2700: No option. Latest tests suggest it is okay.
Denon AVR-4806(AVC-A11XV): LFE control only affects DD and DTS. One owner reports that PCM/DSD LFE gain is undocumentedly linked to analogue SW Level setting; another owner reports that this doesn't work for him
Pioneer VSX-84TXSi/VSX-82TXSi(VSX-AX4ASi/VSX-AX2ASi): latest USA firmware apparently fixes - with this, +10dB analogue SW boost also affects HDMI+ i.Link. New units may not have this firmware. Fix not yet available in Europe. Status of i.Link SACD after fix remains unknown.
Anthem Statement D2 and Anthem AVM-50: firmware versions 1.10 and earlier lack the +10dB boost; version 1.11 fixes.

Receivers not boosting PCM LFE input by 10dB
Pioneer VSX-74TXVi (VSX-AX4AVi): no firmware fix, as far as I know

Other odd receiver behaviour
Onkyo SR-804E: can't apply EX/PLIIx/etc to multichannel PCM input
Sony STR-DA5200ES: can't apply EX/PLIIx/etc to multichannel PCM input
Panasonic SA-XR700: can't apply EX/PLIIx/etc to multichannel PCM input
Panasonic SA-XR57: can't bass manage multichannel PCM input - avoid
Players correctly summing bass and LFE

Players incorrectly summing bass and LFE
Samsung DVD-HD850 - gets SACD wrong; sums as if it were DVD-Audio
Players matching SACD analogue playback with other formats by 10dB SW drop
Denon DVD-2930 (except in SOURCE DIRECT mode)
Players not matching SACD analogue playback with other formats
Samsung DVD-HD850, DVD-HD950

Other odd player behaviour
Denon DVD-2930: Can bass manage and level adjust HDMI output
Oppo 970HD: Can bass manage and level adjust HDMI output; unfortunately this means LFE is 15dB low to make room, even with bass management off, but this is apparently fixed in latest beta firmware

Schwingding

11-09-06, 01:39 PM

That was GREAT. Wish it were available when I was learning all of that stuff. The only criticism I might have of it is that were I not previously aware of this issue, I might still be confused. There is a lot of great, very easy to understand info here, but there is a LOT of info.

Nice work.

trekguy

11-09-06, 01:46 PM

Onkyo TX-SR702 options.

Multichannel Analog-- 0dB (default), +5, +10 or +15dB. Manual says if too loud (sic) set to 0, +5, +10 or +15.

DTS-- -infinitedB, -10db0dB (default), 0dB (default). Manual says if too loud set to -infinitydB or -10dB.

Dolby Digital-- -infinitedB, -10db0dB (default), 0dB (default). Manual says if too loud set at -infinitydB or -10dB.

I don't know how to get the other information, or when THX Select settings are used what changes occur.

Ktulu_1

11-09-06, 01:48 PM

KMO

11-09-06, 01:52 PM

Onkyo TX-SR702 LFE options.

Multichannel Analog-- 0dB (default), +5, +10 or +15dB. Manual says if too loud set to 0, +5, +10 or +15.

Thanks, that's good info. And a good receiver by the sound of it. But in this one case, don't you mean too quiet? And to keep the LFE/SW terminology accurate, presumably that's SW rather than LFE for that one.

KMO

11-09-06, 01:55 PM

If I'm reading this right, this explains why a HD-DVD player connected to a Pioneer VSX-84TXSi via HDMI runs the LFE channel low. It's receiving raw PCM and doesn't apply the 10db boast to the LFE channel like it would on a DD or DTS bitstream.
That's what I've gathered from other posts here. Don't have one myself, but it's on my shortlist (albeit a bit further down now if that 10dB boost is missing...) Although I understand there may be worse problems in that the channel assignments for multichannel-PCM bass redirection may be scrambled in some way. Not sure of the details.

trekguy

11-09-06, 03:22 PM

Thanks, that's good info. And a good receiver by the sound of it. But in this one case, don't you mean too quiet? And to keep the LFE/SW terminology accurate, presumably that's SW rather than LFE for that one.

Sharp eyes! No, it says "too loud" although that does seem incorrect. You are correct LFE was my error, it should be SW.

OP now corrected.

CAVX

11-10-06, 11:24 PM

Great thread KMO, well written :) Any modds out there, please make this thread into a sticky...

Mark

bwclark

11-16-06, 12:54 PM

KMO,
According to this thread, the Sony STR-DA5200ES has a +10db for the SW:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8913999#post8913999

KMO

11-16-06, 01:35 PM

Thanks! Actually, I already had the manual for that, so I really should have added it myself...

soundlovr

11-16-06, 11:33 PM

And 10dB difference is quite a lot - it means a signal over 3 times the amplitude.
Amplitude is a tough term to use there... I'm not sure it fits in relation to a logarithmic scale. But if you're talking about the perceived loudness, then the human ear perceives a doubling of loudness for approximately every 10dB increase, not 3 times, nor over 3 times.

jamin

11-17-06, 01:27 AM

krabapple

11-17-06, 04:56 AM

what's a good test to determine if one's avr is applying the 10dB boost to LFE transmitted via a digital input?

KMO

11-17-06, 08:38 AM

Get a player with a built in Dolby Digital decoder, and some Dolby Digital test tones (eg Avia). Note that on Avia, the subwoofer calibration tone does not use LFE. Only the LFE frequency sweep tone does - use that.

Ensure the receivers "LFE level" setting for its own DD decoder is set appropriately - if it offers "-10dB" and "0dB" you want "0dB". If it offers "0dB" and "+10dB" you want "+10dB". Otherwise, check the manual, but it's probably the highest option that you want.

Switch between getting the player to decode DD and pass PCM to the receiver, and passing the DD bitstream up to the receiver for it to decode.

You'll probably see an absolute level difference on all channels in the two cases, due to dialogue normalisation, or other subtleties - maybe 4-5dB. If you see a bigger discrepancy (>=10dB), the player's doing something odd, or you've got some level trims set up that affect the HDMI output (set them all to 0dB). Figure out what that difference is.

The LFE tone should change by the same amount. If the receiver isn't boosting LFE from PCM, but is when doing its own DD decode, then the LFE in the PCM case will be 10dB lower relative to the other channels.

It may be that the receiver has some setting to adjust LFE level over HDMI PCM/DSD. It may be unified with the level for its own DD decoder (as in the Denon AVR-3806), or it may have a separate setting (as in the Onkyo NR-5000E). Conceivably it may even be unified with the multichannel analogue input SW level.

Try whatever settings you can in the receiver to adjust it. But note that boosting the subwoofer speaker level is not a solution if you've got any bass processing happening, as that will also boost the redirected bass by 10dB. The receiver has to understand and get the LFE level right before it redirects bass (see the maths in the main article).

An LFE control setting in the receiver is desirable because it may be the only place to deal with SACD or old DTS music discs that don't need an LFE boost, if the player doesn't offer its own controls, or automatically lower LFE output for SACD to match.

If the player has level trims that affect HDMI output, then you can compensate in the player (as long as the player isn't bass redirecting). Set all level trims other than LFE to -10dB, and LFE to 0dB.

KMO

11-17-06, 09:01 AM

soundlovr - good point regarding our basic SPL sensitvity. You may not realize that KMO has been translating to eqivalent voltage waveforms or digital numerics --- as in sqrt(10) = 3.16. But hey it is still a 10x power change!
Yes, that's my point - I'm highlighting the issue of squeezing this loud LFE signal through a nominally 2V analogue connector or a PCM signal with a hard fixed scale. Try to imagine what happens if you try to increase the LFE level by 10dB to match the other channels. You're fine with a nice quiet 75dB or 85dB test tone, but what happens when you get a full-scale 115dB LFE rumble?

Here's a quick table highlighting the point. The maths may not be precise, but it's illustrative:

For a normal channel:
75dB SPL = 0.07V, or 1/27 scale digital signal
85dB SPL = 0.2V, or 1/9 scale digital signal
95dB SPL = 0.7V, or 1/3 scale digital signal
105dB SPL = 2V (maximum), or full scale digital signal

For LFE channel:
75dB SPL = 0.02V, or 1/81 scale digital signal
85dB SPL = 0.07V, or 1/27 scale digital signal
95dB SPL = 0.2V, or 1/9 scale digital signal
105dB SPL = 0.7V, or 1/3 scale digital signal
115dB SPL = 2V (maximum), or full scale digital signal

So for any given intended volume, the LFE waveform will be 3 times smaller than the other channels. You could try to adjust trims on the output device to make it match the other channels, and that would be fine while working with nice gentle 75dB or 85dB test tones, or when working with content that never uses the extra range of the channel.

But when the LFE wants to output 115dB, by turning it up you've just generated 6V and overloaded the receiver's input, or massively clipped the digital waveform with a 3-times overload.

That's why the LFE is recorded and transmitted down 10dB. The amplifier at the end is calibrated to turn it up an extra 10dB, so it can push out 10dB more than the other channels.

But that extra 10dB can't be applied until you've reached a point where there's room for the extra signal. And there isn't room over any digital PCM link (unless you're actually turning down all the other channels by 10dB instead), and it's something to be wary of over an analogue link, unless you know the receiving device can handle 6V input okay. (Any device that digitises the input is likely to suffer; an analogue device like a power amplifier or powered subwoofer may well cope okay).

krabapple

11-19-06, 06:35 PM

For the Pioneer 74TXvi, which I only ever use with digital connections (ilink or HDMI), I can report that it has a dedicated variable SW channel level adjustment from -10 dB to +10 dB which affects digital input and, I presume, multichannel analog input too. Given the performance of the 80TX series, I would be surprised if the 74txvi correctly applied automatic +10 dB boost to LFE data over the digital input, though I still haven't formally checked it.

Given the sophistication of AVRs these days, it's sad that they still don't tend to correctly process bass for all formats.

KMO

11-19-06, 06:54 PM

I think you're referring to the global subwoofer output trim? What I'm looking for is a separate setting that adjusts the multichannel analogue subwoofer input specifically, to make sure you can give it the special 10-15dB boost it needs, without messing up the other sources. That could either be a special setting, or offering a complete set of different speaker trims for the multichannel input.

Yes, I'm amazed they can't get this sort of basic stuff right, given how complex so much of the stuff they do is.

krabapple

11-19-06, 07:10 PM

Right, I wasn't so much answering your query as just adding to the 'devices' info database. There is no dedicated 'LFE' or MC input level setting..it's all down to the global channel level settings. [Edit: this refers only to digital input, not analog]

KMO

11-20-06, 05:26 AM

jacksonian

11-20-06, 08:17 AM

KMO,
I'm growing increasingly tired of trying to figure this out with my 84TX. I compared the DD from an SD DVD last night to the PCM 5.1 Blu Ray version last night of Black Hawk Down and the PCM was significantly weaker in the LFE.

I'm about ready to jump ship unless you think there's a way to make this work. I don't really listen to music on this system that often, mostly movies. Would you recommend the Denon 3806 as one that handles this issue correctly? And if so, do you want a great deal on a barely used 84TX? :D

jacksonian

11-20-06, 08:27 AM

Agh, the 3806 only has 2 HDMI inputs. I think 3 is minimum, TiVo S3, BD, HD-DVD. What about the Denon 4306?

KMO

11-20-06, 09:00 AM

jacksonian

11-20-06, 09:28 AM

KMO

11-20-06, 09:54 AM

The first workaround wouldn't; that's an adjustment in the player's PCM HDMI output. Bitstreams would go out intact, and would be processed as normal and correctly by the receiver. You'd just have to turn the master volume up 10dB when using PCM HDMI.

The second would screw up everything else, yes. You could counteract that screw-up by disabling the 10dB LFE boost in the receiver's own DD decoder to match (use the -10dB setting), and it would all work out. But the Pioneer lacks that setting too. You'd have to keep raising and lowering the subwoofer trim.

jacksonian

11-20-06, 10:52 AM

krabapple

11-20-06, 12:41 PM

Hi krabapple; that sounded a bit odd to me, so I double checked. It actually does have a +10dB boost option for the multichannel analogue SW, like the 84, at least according to the manual for the European version here (http://www.service.pioneer-eur.com/peeservice/instrmanuals.nsf/0/18F62CD32737E1BAC12570A7003221BE/$File/ARB7335_VSX-AX4AVI-S.pdf) (page 51).

But bizarrely, like the 84, it's a totally hidden feature, so you wouldn't find it unless you happened to read that page of the manual.

You're quite right, the 74txvi has this too, I missed it because I haven't used *analog* inputs at all. I was thinking only of digitial LFE/multichannel.
For digital input (ilink, HDMI, and possibly optical) you can only adjust channel levels as part of the global channel level parameters. I'll edit the previous post to note this.

It's always been unclear to me whether the 70 and 80 series of Pioneer AVRs apply MCACC (room correction) to the multichannel input -- do you know? I see from the manual that you cannot apply 'listening modes' or a few other features. Also, can they do DPLIIX on MC analog inputs?

krabapple

11-20-06, 12:50 PM

The first workaround wouldn't; that's an adjustment in the player's PCM HDMI output. Bitstreams would go out intact, and would be processed as normal and correctly by the receiver. You'd just have to turn the master volume up 10dB when using PCM HDMI.

But according to the first post in this thread,
Pioneer VSX-84TXSi/VSX-82TXSi(VSX-AX4ASi/VSX-AX2ASi) are models that do NOT apply +10 dB boost to digital input -- I presume this includes bitstream.

The second would screw up everything else, yes. You could counteract that screw-up by disabling the 10dB LFE boost in the receiver's own DD decoder to match (use the -10dB setting), and it would all work out. But the Pioneer lacks that setting too. You'd have to keep raising and lowering the subwoofer trim.

Since there are 6 available saved setting for PIoneer AVR configs, I suppose one could create a config for each situation, with different sub trim -- movies vs SACD for example.

jacksonian

11-20-06, 01:06 PM

I'm pretty certain the other Denons in the 06 range will work much the same as the 3806, but I haven't gone through their manuals. Feel free to have a go yourself...
Do you remember where in the manual this is addressed, ie, under what heading? I'm trying to look through the pdf right now, but not sure where to look.

Thanks

KMO

11-20-06, 03:13 PM

Oh, I got it, but I don't think I can do that with the Playstation. Is that a usual feature of the other BD or HD-DVD standalone players?
I think the HD-A1 can do it. But it's not really the sort of function I'd expect a player to provide, any more than I'd expect it to allow channel balance on the 2-channel outputs. It shouldn't be necessary.

KMO

11-20-06, 03:15 PM

But according to the first post in this thread,
Pioneer VSX-84TXSi/VSX-82TXSi(VSX-AX4ASi/VSX-AX2ASi) are models that do NOT apply +10 dB boost to digital input -- I presume this includes bitstream.
Sorry, was that unclear? No, all receivers get bitstream right, or at least give you the option of getting it right :). Because it's the common case used by 98% of users. It's only when you go raw multichannel, either analogue or digital, that things go pear-shaped.

KMO

11-20-06, 03:23 PM

Do you remember where in the manual this is addressed, ie, under what heading? I'm trying to look through the pdf right now, but not sure where to look.

Just do what I do - search for "10 dB" or "10dB". Failing that, just "dB". Done this on dozens of manuals :)

In the case of the AVR-3806, in the PDF I have of the US manual (can't remember where I got it from), on page 35, under "Basic Operation / Surround Parameters", we have:

LFE (Low Frequency Effect):
This sets the level of the LFE (Low Frequency Effect) sounds included in the source when playing program sources recorded in Dolby Digital, DTS, DVD-audio or Super Audio CD.
Program source and adjustment range:
–10 dB to 0 dB
When DTS encoded movie software is played, it is recommended that the LFE LEVEL be set to 0 dB for correct DTS playback.
When DTS encoded music software is played, it is recommended that the LFE LEVEL be set to –10 dB for correct DTS playback.
That advice is actually rather antiquated. As I understand it, early DTS music discs (mainly CDs) suffered from the "incorrect" (compared to DTS film) LFE levels. Most DTS music discs should now be okay at 0dB really.

The setting applies, as far as I am aware, equally to internal DD/DTS decode, PCM over HDMI, and PCM/DSD over Denon Link. However, I've not tested it personally.

krabapple

11-20-06, 08:01 PM

Sorry, was that unclear? No, all receivers get bitstream right, or at least give you the option of getting it right :). Because it's the common case used by 98% of users. It's only when you go raw multichannel, either analogue or digital, that things go pear-shaped.

Well, digital to me includes bitstream, and given how many times gear seems not to get things quite right, I didn't take it for granted. For people like me, perhaps its best to reword that heading -- to indicate explicitly that it doesn't apply to bitstream digital.

aaron_hinni

11-22-06, 02:30 PM

So those of us who have an AVR that doesn't do the 10dB boost properly. Would some external device that does bass management be the best solution?

I have a Pioneer 84 and a Tosh HD-A1, and I am wondering what would be the way to deal with this issue.

I took a quick look at the Outlaw ICBM and it is not clear to me if it will solve the problem or not. It looks like it can *reduce* the LFE channel, but not sure if it can add to it.

thanks,
aaron

KMO

11-22-06, 03:28 PM

If you're using analogue interconnects, there shouldn't be much of a problem anyway; for your combination, using analogue, turning on the +10dB SW boost in the receiver and then adjusting the other channels down 5dB in the player should do the trick.

There's nothing available I'm aware of that would help with the HDMI connection.

aaron_hinni

11-22-06, 04:02 PM

I'll need to re-read your first post to hopefully make some sense of the math behind the -5dB on the player and +10dB on the receiver... unless of course you would like to explain that.

I am using HDMI, but if it will fix the issue, I will switch over to using the analog ins. Should I set the speakers to large on the HD-A1 for this setup?

I guess I would be hosed if I added a second source in the future (like BR player or something). So if I did switch over to analog, and added another source later on, is there where something like the Outlaw would come in handy?

thanks again,
aaron

KMO

11-22-06, 05:58 PM

If you use analogue, the receiver won't be doing bass management etc. So if you want to select small speakers or change distances, you need to do that in the player, replicating your settings for the receiver.

If you are doing bass management in the player, then the SW output will probably be 15dB lower than the rest (-10dB to fit the LFE, and another -5dB to fit redirected bass). So you need to get that lifted up relative to the other channels. The +10dB setting on the receiver will get you most of the way there, and you can get the rest by turning all the other channels down 5dB in the player, so the SW output will now be amplified 15dB more than the rest. Running a calibration DVD through the analogue hook-up should show that everything's okay.

In future, I suggest you look out for players that can adjust their channel levels over HDMI. Some can - with them you can work around the Pioneer problem by telling them to turn all their other channels down 10dB.

KMO

11-23-06, 08:41 AM

I find myself increasingly uncertain about DVD-Audio, and I've adjusted the opening post to reflect that. I'm beginning to suspect that the LFE on DVD-Audio PCM/MLP tracks is equal-level, like SACD, and players may be lowering it in their analogue outputs, like SACD, to match DD/DTS.

Can anyone offer any insight? If you're using DVD-Audio with a digital interconnect, are you using a 10dB boost? Or does it come out okay with non-boosting receivers like the VSX-84?

scottd327

11-23-06, 02:40 PM

I have the Denon AVR-4806 and it has a sub-menu for EXT. IN SW level. It allows you to adjust it up 5, 10 or 15db. I can confirm from testing that it appears to work with both analogue in and pcm, dvd-audio and sacd via Denon Link or HDMI. +15 appears to be the correct level to match dolby or dts bitstream via optical and is the default setting. It also appears to be the correct level for sacd and dvd-audio when compared to the CD version via digital or denon link.

Although on the Pio 84 thread I originally posted that I thought the Pio LFE was pretty close with the Denon on PCM via HDMI, after getting more equal levels, it does appear the Pio LFE is 8-10db down from the Denon on PCM sources, but not SACD or DVD-Audio. Maybe KMO is correct that the player or the disc is making the adjustment for those music sources before outputting digitally or the receiver makes the adjustment based on what signal it is receiving (pcm, mlp or dsd).

KMO

11-23-06, 06:28 PM

Thanks Scott, that's useful.

What player are you using, and how are you connecting to the Pioneer? It sounds like you've got the analogue connection working smoothly with this combination.

Actually, are you sure the Denon's EXT. IN SW setting is affecting your HDMI and Denon Link? It should be the separate LFE setting for that.

scottd327

11-23-06, 11:21 PM

I was comparing DD+ from the Toshiba HD-AX1 via Hdmi to both the Denon AVR-4806 and the 84. For DVD-Audio I used Denon Link from DVD-3910 to the 4806 and ilink to the 84.

I agree with you that the Ext. In SW level on the Denon should affect only the 7.1 analog input. However, I have checked every menu and every word in the manual and cannot find a separate setting for PCM through HDMI or any other digital link.

You have said that the AVR-3806 has such a setting. I cannot imagine the 3806 would have it and not the 4806. In what menu is it located in the 3806?

KMO

11-24-06, 04:38 AM

According to the 3806 manual, there's an LFE setting in the "Surround Parameter" menu. It says "this sets the level of the LFE (Low Frequency Effect) sounds included in the source when playing program sources recorded in Dolby Digital, DTS, DVD-audio or Super Audio CD." Ah, I've already posted that in #31 above. :o

From what you've said I'd be interested to see if this actually has independent settings for the different formats. It sounds to me like it may be giving you "0dB" for DD and "-10dB" for SACD. Which would be brilliant.

Actually it may just be remembering for different inputs; i.Link and HDMI. What does the Denon do if you switch between DD bitstream and DVD-Audio from the 3810 over i.Link, or DD bitstream and DD+-derived PCM from the HD-A1 over HDMI? Do you have independent LFE settings?

The most problematic case would be a universal HD DVD/SACD/DVD-Audio player or similar, where PCM output from DD+ would need a 10dB LFE boost, but PCM/DSD output from the music discs didn't (unless the player was helpful enough to lower the LFE for music to match). It would be great if the receiver could automate that somehow.

scottd327

11-24-06, 07:41 AM

The 4806 allows for an LFE setting of 0 or -10db for Dolby and dts only. For SACD and DVD-Audio it provides a SW attenuation setting if the bass is too strong, but says specifically you should not need this setting if using a Denon universal player.

Dvd-audio and 5.1 sacd from denon link and dd+, true-hd and uncompressed pcm via HDMI all show up as "Multi CH IN" on the 4806 face. This allows you to apply THX, PLIIx, EQ and bass management to the signal (and allows you to adjust treble/bass for each speaker, including bass level in the subwoofer), but no separate LFE setting is available in the Surround Parameter.

What all of the above tells me is that the Denon receiver IS applying a 10db boost to all incoming LFE, but for digital SACD and DVD-Audio the Denon DVD player is attenuating the output, so it is level once the boost is applied.

Do you agree?

KMO

11-24-06, 08:31 AM

Hmm. I'm confused now. The copy of the 4806CI manual I've downloaded from http://usa.denon.com/AVR-4806CI-OM.pdf shows the same settings as the 3806 manual I downloaded. It says on page 55 that the LFE setting in Surround Parameters affects DD, DTS, DVDA and SACD, and it's shown as available for MULTI CH IN in the table on page 157. And on page 100, SW Level is said to only affect the EXT IN subwoofer terminal. I don't see any text about "you should not need this setting if using a Denon universal player".

I note there's also another setting shown "SW ATT", just for EXT IN, but it's not clear what that does exactly.

The way the manual describes it makes more logical sense than what you're seeing, as the terminology is correct - what you get over a digital link is plain LFE, not SW (LFE+redirected bass). So it should be an LFE control that affects it. But maybe they've implemented it so that the SW Level setting controls both the SW analogue input and the digital LFE input, leaving the LFE Level to only control the DD and DTS encoders. Hmmm. It would work, but it's not what that manual says.

I agree with your last assessment. The most sensible thing for a universal player to do is to align its SW/LFE outputs for all formats, by attenuating by 10dB where appropriate.

So, for DD/DTS/DD+/any other format that needs a 10dB LFE boost:

Digital LFE out = raw LFE data off disc
Analogue SW out = Lower5dB(LFE off disc + Lower10dB(redirected bass))
(The extra 5dB drop is needed to make room for the redirected bass)

For SACD/DVD-Audio PCM/any format that doesn't need a 10dB LFE boost:

Digital LFE out = Lower10dB(LFE data off disc)
Analogue SW out = Lower5dB(Lower10dB(LFE off disc) + Lower10dB(redirected bass))
So in the receiver LFE always needs a 10dB boost through digital and 15dB through analogue, regardless of format.

The only catch is that digitally lowering by 10dB will cost some quality, particularly for DSD (each re-encode of DSD introduces more noise). But I doubt you'd ever notice for the LFE channel.

KMO

11-24-06, 09:50 AM

Ah, I've just realised that the AVR-4806 and 4806CI are different models. The AVR-4806 (http://usa.denon.com/AVR-4806_DFU_no_XM_Mic.pdf) manual indeed says the LFE setting doesn't work in MULTI CH IN mode.

The SW Level affecting digital inputs is undocumented; good catch, I'll add that to the top post. Do you think +15dB is the right setting for digital, matching analogue? I'm a bit surprised, but as it's undocumented, who knows what it's actually doing. Just because it's doing +15dB for analogue doesn't mean it's giving you +15dB for digital.

Still can't see the text about Denon universal players though.

Terry Montlick

11-24-06, 10:03 AM

Excellent exposition, KMO!

- Terry

ftlee

11-24-06, 10:19 AM

KMO,

As you probably know from another thread, I am in-between receivers at the moment. If you had to choose a make and model based on what you know today, what would it be?

Thanks,

Frank

KMO

11-24-06, 10:57 AM

Purely on these functionality concerns, I'm tending for the Denon AVR-3806, or its AVR-3807 successor if that's as good. Denon understand the issues, and have put in all the options, with sensible defaults. But I don't like relying on a proprietary Denon Link hook-up.

I originally started considering the Marantz SR7001, for its 4xHDMI 1.2 connectivity, but I don't yet have any information about its LFE handling over HDMI PCM/DSD. I'm also wary of being forced to bundle video and audio, as HDMI requires. Separate connections, i.Link style, strike me as being less prone to problems (such as not being able to get full-res audio with 480i/576i on many devices, or general format-negotiation and copy-protection grief).

The Pioneer VSX-AX4ASi (VSX-84TXSi) was a strong contender, having i.Link, but the lack of LFE boost holes it below the waterline for me.

Part of the problem is that I also need to get a new universal player. But at the moment, I'd probably end up forced to get a matching pair - only Denon players have Denon Link, only the upcoming Marantz DV7001 is likely to have HDMI 1.2 SACD output in the near future (and this would probably be my preferred player), and only Pioneer DVD players have i.Link in my price-range. So that complicates the decision.

I've not heard or seen any of these receivers in real life yet, I'm still researching. I currently own a 5+ year old Marantz SR7200.

scaesare

11-24-06, 11:35 AM

KMO... thanks for this.. I just had opportunity to read the thread in it's entirety.

I think I'll PM Chris this link as well, as it is a great adjunct to the discussion we are having in the 84-specific thread.

KMO

11-24-06, 12:04 PM

Yes, please do, Steve. I've just rewritten it a bit to reflect my new view that DVD-Audio doesn't use a LFE boost (but players compensate). And I've added more references to standards documents. Regretfully, I haven't yet gotten my hands on CEA-861-D (the standard for the soft layers of HDMI) or the DVD-Audio Book ($5000!), so I'm still not definitive on what HDMI and DVD-Audio say about their LFE data.

scottd327

11-24-06, 02:24 PM

Still can't see the text about Denon universal players though.

It is on pg. 62 of the 4806 manual. Although it states it works only with EXT. IN., the manual seems to interchange that term between analog and digital. Also, it could not be referring to the multichannel analog in because the surround parameters do not work with that input. It is simply a pass through.

Regardless, I did the LFE only test (no mixed bass management) from Digital Video Essentials played by the Toshiba HD-XA1 through hdmi to the 4806. On one test I played the DD track decoded in the receiver and the other decoded in the player. The LFE levels were identical. When I ran the test with the Pioneer 84, the LFE was down 8db when decoded in the Toshiba.

I do not have test disc for DVD-Audio or SACD signals, but the bass seems spot on with 3910 connected to the 4806 via Denon Link. With the 3910 connected to the Pio 84 via ilink, the bass level was slightly down, but not as much as with the Dolby Digital test. It could have been less noticeable since there is generally more redirected bass and less LFE in DVD-A and SACD recordings. With some prior processors I have owned, the bass has been way to hot on multichannel music discs.

This test seems to indicate that, regardless of what the manual says, Denon does have it right with both its receivers and dvd players. On the other hand, the Pio Elite is definitely not providing the boost to the multichannel PCM LFE via HDMI.

Hope this helps in your admirable task.

jacksonian

11-24-06, 02:29 PM

Scott,
That's tremendously helpful. Thanks for doing that!

KMO

11-24-06, 02:37 PM

Ah, gotcha. Didn't realise you were talking about the SW ATT setting - thought you were talking about the SW LEVEL.

That SW ATT is interesting. The 4806 is Ultra2, yes? That means it can do processing on its multichannel analogue input, I think. So it has analogue-to-digital converters on them. And if someone had a player that did boost its SW output by 10dB, raising its peak rms level to 6V, then the ADC would be overloaded. So the SW ATT exists to attenuate the input it in the analogue domain so the ADC can work. Then the SW LEVEL would boost it back up properly.

I'm pretty certain EXT IN. always specifically refers to the analogue connection; can you show any examples where they mean digital by it?

scottd327

11-24-06, 04:02 PM

That SW ATT is interesting. The 4806 is Ultra2, yes? That means it can do processing on its multichannel analogue input, I think. So it has analogue-to-digital converters on them. And if someone had a player that did boost its SW output by 10dB, raising its peak rms level to 6V, then the ADC would be overloaded. So the SW ATT exists to attenuate the input it in the analogue domain so the ADC can work. Then the SW LEVEL would boost it back up properly.

I'm pretty certain EXT IN. always specifically refers to the analogue connection; can you show any examples where they mean digital by it?

You are correct and incorrect. Yes, I believe EXT.IN. does mean multichannel analog in. I was confusing it with Multichannel IN which is Denon's term for a digital input where the decoding is done externally.

However, although it is Ultra2 certified the 4806 does not do any processing on the analog EXT.IN, just the digital Multichannel IN. I believe only the 5805 can process the analog.

It is interesting though that there are 2 separate settings affecting the subwoofer input of the analog EXT.IN. In the setup menu under EXT Input setup, there is a setting for subwoofer level boost of +5db, +10db or +15db. Then when in EXT.IN mode you can pull up the surround parameter menu and the only choice available is the SUB. ATT. of ON or OFF. The two menus appear to be at cross purposes.

Now if you are in digital Multi Ch IN mode, then the only suround parameters available are surround back channel mode and tone defeat. If you select tone defeat off then it will allow you, among other things, to adjust up or down the subwoofer level (not the LFE specifically) for that input only.

ftlee

11-24-06, 04:29 PM

Looking at the manuals, it looks like the Yamaha 1700 / 2700 would have the same issue since there doesn't seem to be an adjustment. Can anyone confirm / deny?

Thanks,

Frank

billymac

11-30-06, 03:02 PM

KMO

11-30-06, 03:28 PM

Good to hear. I wonder if it's going to be switchable, or they'll just have it fixed at +10dB, like they do with the internal DD and DTS decode? That would be acceptable, but it's nice to always have a bit of flexibility, in case you need to work around problems.

sivadselim

11-30-06, 06:07 PM

this post needs a "sticky"

Scott_R_K

11-30-06, 06:23 PM

Pioneer called me back. They are aware of the issue and are writing a flash for the dsp to correct the LFE issue. They are hoping to have it available by the end of December. Owners please call and get a case# and register your product. They will email you when the firmware flash is available. They did not know at this time if it was going to be a user addressable fix or if it has to go to a service center for the flash.

Did Pioneer say exactly which models were being considered for this ?

Will Pioneer be contacting you when this is available or will it be announced on their web site ?

All in all , this is good news . Pioneer very rarely provides updates on released products .

Scott....................... :D

Q of BanditZ

12-01-06, 04:33 PM

Looking at the manuals, it looks like the Yamaha 1700 / 2700 would have the same issue since there doesn't seem to be an adjustment. Can anyone confirm / deny?

Thanks,

Frank

I'm almost certain there isn't one.

That being the case...then what? If I wanted to buy one of these and basically go all HDMI, like with my PS3, what would I be dealing with?

What a great thread! I wish I could fit it into my sig along with the other one! :)

bwclark

12-01-06, 09:43 PM

Other odd receiver behaviour
Onkyo SR-804E: can't apply EX/PLIIx/etc to multichannel PCM input
Sony STR-DA5200ES: can't apply EX/PLIIx/etc to multichannel PCM input
-----------------------------------------

Is the fact that the Sony won't scale HDMI inputs an odd behavior? Appears most of the others will.
(ie if my cable STB is connected to the Sony HDMI, no scaling will occur. One needs to use the component inputs to make it scale.)

KMO

12-02-06, 04:45 AM

Useful to consider, Bob, but not really on the subject of the subforum or thread. :)

VeniVideoVici

12-04-06, 11:05 PM

Say, what about the Onkyo SR-TX674?

Am I going to be sorry if I pull the trigger? Either due to LFE (which stood for Low Frequency Enhancement on my 1984 Onkyo TX-36) or other issues, like HDMI 1.1, or whatever...

BTW - Absolutely fab primer. Chock full for tech heads like me, and simple enough for chuckle heads like me.

KMO

12-05-06, 06:44 AM

Q of BanditZ

12-05-06, 09:20 AM

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7517744#post7517744

Start reading from post 400 on forward.

Pay attention to what Film Mixer is posting, especially quoted and bolded items, in regards to HDMI 1.3.

Lots of questions getting answered directly from Dolby people and everything else.

krabapple

12-08-06, 05:54 PM

Don't know if you want to add this as an LFE issue, but on another thread recently there was much discussion of AVR treatment of >80Hz information mixed into the LFE channel (Dolby Digital allows up to 120 Hz as a low-pass limit in the mixing studio, and some SACD/DVDs apparently have 'full range' music in the LFE) . Most if not all AVRs , when using bass management, combine and cross over the 'small' speaker channels AND the LFE channel before output to the sub. The 'upper' frequencies of the small channels are sent to the appropriate speakers, of course, but the 'upper' part of the LFE has nowhere to go. It's gone.

Now, this raises another issue -- do we really need, or *want* to retain that info anyway? Some have said that content above 80 Hz is rare in DD/DTS LFE channels (subwoofers set to reproduce it would become localizable too). Others add that the 'full range' LFE info in DVD-A/SACD isn't *meant* to be heard (which makes sense, as no subwoofer would be able to reproduce it anyway)

Still. Suppose one did not want to cross over their bass-managed system at 120 Hz (most people don't, unless they have TINY speakers). For example, if you have a THX-frioendly system, you want to keep the crossover at 80 Hz. The theoretically 'correct' behavior would be for LFE frequencies above that crossover point (ie from 80-120) to be sent to one of the other speakers (e.g. front L/R), rather than being lost.

here's an example of a thread where this is mentioned, though I know there must be others (I find AVS forum's search function to be all but useless these days)

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=732672&page=1&pp=60

JBlacklow

12-08-06, 08:09 PM

Per KMO's request in another thread:

The Sony STRDG1000 allows settings for speaker size, distance (including SW), level from -10 to +10 (including SW), and phase for all inputs, analog and digital. Same for EQ settings. There is a specific, separate setting for multichannel +10 LFE, but only for the 8-channel analog input. Crossover can be set on all inputs, but is disabled when speakers are set to LARGE.

KMO

12-09-06, 04:23 AM

Ta for that. So there's no LFE level setting for internal DD/DTS decode? And the LFE level's right for external PCM?

krabapple

12-16-06, 02:51 PM

KMO, can you point me to the thread/post where this info came from:

Other odd player behaviour

* Oppo 970HD: Can bass manage and level adjust HDMI output; unfortunately this means LFE is 15dB low to make room, even with bass management off

Thanks.

KMO

12-16-06, 05:55 PM

J y E 4Ever

12-17-06, 10:54 AM

krabapple

12-18-06, 12:15 PM

Blimey, dunno. You're right, I should have references. It would have come from this site. Search for 970HD and 15dB? Someone did specifically give me that detailed info.

The Oppo's rather odd in that respect, apparently - it doesn't give you "raw" audio over HDMI like all normal players do - it gives you the same thing going to its analogue outputs, so you have to set delays to 0 and speakers to large, otherwise you'll get receiver adjustments on top of player adjustments.

If that 15dB thing is true, you'll probably need to turn all mains down 5dB to restore the 10dB difference the receiver expects.

well, as an Oppo 970 owner, I can try to test this by changing settings -- any HDMI PCM output effects should be pretty obvious if true. My recollection of my own experience is that the only thing that affected HDMI PCM output was the global volume change and the downmix/mch setting -- the per-channel level sliders had no effect, for example. But I will recheck this, and bass management too.

paulnpcom

12-18-06, 08:34 PM

Schlotkins

12-19-06, 08:56 AM

Quick question on the Onkyo SR-804E. What receiver is this? I know there is a TX804. Is that the same receiver? I can't find anything on the SR-804E. I don't raelly care about turing 5.1 -> 7.1 so that's not an issue for me nor do I can to run the 5.1 out to another device. Hence, this may be a perfect receiver for me - cheaper than the Denons.

Thanks,
Chris

KMO

12-19-06, 09:12 AM

So, KMO ... did you pull the trigger on an AVR yet? For myself, I decided to assume that Pio would fix the LFE issue via firmware, and went ahead with the 84. But I'm curious about which side of the fence you came down on.
I haven't yet. I'm very much inclined to the Pioneer, but I'm not going to budge until the firmware fix is confirmed, and I can be sure I can pick up a fixed unit here in England.

The choice of DVD player is also key for me, as due to the lamentable state of interconnects, I'm rather restricted. It has to be Pioneer+Pioneer or Denon+Denon, or maybe Marantz+Marantz. There's no way to mix-and-match at the moment, thanks to the limited support of i.Link in mid-range kit, Denon's stupid proprietary interconnects, and the lack of DSD-over-HDMI-capable players.

I'm inclined to go with i.Link, and I hear good things about the Pioneer DV-989 (59 in USA?), so I'm just waiting for the firmware fix.

Actually, I'm still not clear on whether the Pioneer has the LFE bug over i.Link. Can anyone comment?

KMO

12-19-06, 09:15 AM

Quick question on the Onkyo SR-804E. What receiver is this? I know there is a TX804. Is that the same receiver?
Sorry, mistake in my list. Should have been TX-SR804E. That's the same unit you're thinking of, but European version, I think. I'm sure it's basically the same as the US version.

Schlotkins

12-19-06, 09:24 AM

Sorry, mistake in my list. Should have been TX-SR804E. That's the same unit you're thinking of, but European version, I think. I'm sure it's basically the same as the US version.

Thanks KMO! So, just to verify, this receiver can over come the LFE bug, correct? Do we know about the 803? I can't even figure out difference between the 2. :)

Thanks,
Chris

KMO

12-19-06, 09:28 AM

Schlotkins

12-19-06, 09:45 AM

I've really not studied the Onkyos that closely - they seem to have an awful lot of very similar models :) I can't really imagine the 804's siblings would get it wrong, but I don't know.

The 804 is fine by all accounts, and according to its manual.

I just read the 804 (USA and European version) manual. here's what it says on p.68:

"With this setting, you can set the level of the LFE (Low
Frequency Effects) channel for Dolby Digital, DTS,
MCH PCM (HDMI IN), and MCH Ana (multichannel
DVD input). The level can be set to –∞, –20 dB, –10 dB,
or 0 dB (default).
If you find that the low-frequency effects are too loud
when using one of these sources, set the level to –20 dB
or –∞ dB."

I'm not seeing +10 there, which would be the setting to correct for the issue correct?

Chris

KMO

12-19-06, 11:36 AM

Schlotkins

12-19-06, 02:28 PM

As the top post explains (I think), if a receiver offers settings only going up to 0dB, as most/all do, then 0dB means +10 on LFE, -10dB means no gain on LFE, -20dB means -10 on LFE, -infinity means LFE muted.

+10 on LFE is the "correct" setting, so that's shown as an adjustment of 0dB. Any change lowers it from the correct setting. THX mandates that labelling. There used to be confusion, in that some receivers labelled the ranges for DD and DTS differently(!)

KMO-

Thanks again - it does mention that in the opening post, I just missed it. I figured since it was set as default correct, with all of this receiver LFE garbage, that it had to be wrong. :)

Looks like the 804 could be an interesting choice. Doesn't have the same online dealer restrictions as the Denons.

Chris

J y E 4Ever

12-19-06, 05:05 PM

KMO-

Thanks again - it does mention that in the opening post, I just missed it. I figured since it was set as default correct, with all of this receiver LFE garbage, that it had to be wrong. :)

Looks like the 804 could be an interesting choice. Doesn't have the same online dealer restrictions as the Denons.

Chris

I'm a 674 owner and as KMO has mentioned in the past, the manual is really bizarre how they explain this issue.

It's possible that the 674 has the LFE correction because it's so similar to the 8 series but who really knows.

Heck, you call Onkyo and they don't even know, doh!

Schlotkins

12-19-06, 05:11 PM

I'm a 674 owner and as KMO has mentioned in the past, the manual is really bizarre how they explain this issue.

It's possible that the 674 has the LFE correction because it's so similar to the 8 series but who really knows.

Heck, you call Onkyo and they don't even know, doh!

Do you have something to test it with? I'd love just to get a 604 or 674 if both of those have the correct LFE. I'm not sure waht the difference is between those and the 804 (power?), but that would be another option. Perhaps I'll have to get the 604 and test it myself.

Chris

thehun

12-20-06, 12:12 AM

paulnpcom

12-20-06, 01:40 AM

I haven't yet. I'm very much inclined to the Pioneer, but I'm not going to budge until the firmware fix is confirmed, and I can be sure I can pick up a fixed unit here in England.

Just got off the phone with Pioneer CSR and asked about the 2 issues at hand:

1.) Green verticle band that is about 3" from the left side of screen that is only visible when using Component inputs to the receiver then outputting via HDMI to my TV. No upconversion done.

I was told that this was fixed in an earlier firmware upgrade.

2.) Low LFE experienced while watching new BD and HD-DVD and their LPCM audio tracks.

He told me they were scheduled to have a firmware upgrade for this issue by the end of the month.

He told me that the firmware upgrade was fast as in couple mins. He did say they would send out an email when the firmware was available.

relevant to our discussion, from another thread (I'd post a link but for the noobe restriction ...)

KMO

12-20-06, 06:53 AM

KMO,
so I gather your information on the Denon 3806 is only from the manual, and not from actual experience?
I'm in the same boat as you, I currently looking the Elite too, but the confirmed LFE issue is a definite deal breaker for me.So I'm eying on the 3806 or even the 2807 but I must be sure about this.
I don't have personal experience, but the manual's very clear on this issue, and others have reported that it functions as described. Definitely no problem.

I'm torn between the 84 and the 3806. The main negatives on the 3806 for me are Denon Link (I would be forced to go with the DVD-2930), lack of THX Select, and not enough HDMI. Other than that it looks exceedingly capable. The designers of the digital pre-pro part clearly know what they're doing. I'm a trifle wary of the sound quality of the analogue bits, but to be honest, things like functionality and user interface are higher priority to me than sound quality differences, which would be minor.

I'm also aware the 3806 is somewhat older, and a replacement might be along within 6 months; I could hold out for that.

KMO

12-20-06, 07:31 AM

I've just added the Panasonic SA-XR57 to the list. I think it probably deserves its own category in the hall of shame - it can't bass-manage multichannel PCM input. That renders it pretty useless for HDMI with DVD-Audio/Blu-ray/HD-DVD, unless you're using one of the few players that offer bass management over HDMI.

Even then you might have a few problems, as it will bass manage/time-delay 2-channel input over HDMI - its processing will be going on and off depending on how many channels your device is sending...

krabapple

12-20-06, 12:54 PM

I haven't yet. I'm very much inclined to the Pioneer, but I'm not going to budge until the firmware fix is confirmed, and I can be sure I can pick up a fixed unit here in England.

The choice of DVD player is also key for me, as due to the lamentable state of interconnects, I'm rather restricted. It has to be Pioneer+Pioneer or Denon+Denon, or maybe Marantz+Marantz. There's no way to mix-and-match at the moment, thanks to the limited support of i.Link in mid-range kit, Denon's stupid proprietary interconnects, and the lack of DSD-over-HDMI-capable players.

I'm inclined to go with i.Link, and I hear good things about the Pioneer DV-989 (59 in USA?), so I'm just waiting for the firmware fix.

ilink does not require Pioneer-to-Pioneer . I use a Yamaha S2500 (~$500 US) player with a Pio 74txvi, connected by ilink. (Also have an Oppo 970 HD connected via HDMI)

Actually, I'm still not clear on whether the Pioneer has the LFE bug over i.Link. Can anyone comment?

Another thing I can check...when I get an increasingly mythical day off ;>

KMO

12-21-06, 06:41 AM

ilink does not require Pioneer-to-Pioneer .
Theoretically, no. But nothing else currently available remotely in the price range I'm considering has i.Link, so it's as good as being Pioneer proprietary, in practice.

Although I'd like to leave open the door to future expansion, maybe with higher-end kit.

Interesting that the Yamaha 2500 had it. The 2700 doesn't. Which means that the 2700 is a downgrade - it can no longer output SACD digitally. Idiots.

How to knock yourself off a purchasing shortlist in one easy step. :rolleyes:

Jack Gilvey

12-21-06, 08:06 AM

I'll reiterate everyone's thanks for this thread...great stuff.

I've just added the Panasonic SA-XR57 to the list. I think it probably deserves its own category in the hall of shame - it can't bass-manage multichannel PCM input. That renders it pretty useless for HDMI with DVD-Audio/Blu-ray/HD-DVD, unless you're using one of the few players that offer bass management over HDMI.
But perhaps could still be a nice companion for something like the Toshiba HD-A2 for TrueHd or Oppo 981 for SACD/DVD-A since it's so cheap...if it handles LFE correctly.

allsop4now

12-22-06, 06:19 AM

Not sure about the 674. It does appear to have 15dB of gain control for the analogue subwoofer input (although it's described oddly in the manual), but there's no digital LFE level control shown in the manual. Given the care on their higher-end models, I think there's a >50% chance they've got it fixed at the correct +10dB.

Maybe ask on the 674 thread in the amps section?

Oddly formulated, but correct. I just tested this on my 674 on the analogue inputs using a multi-channel SACD: Changing "SW Input Sensitivity" on the 674 from 0db (default) to 5db clearly _lowers_ the gain (i.e. less bass to subwoofer).

The default value of 0db works fine for me using the Onkyo SP503E player with bass management on the analogue outputs where all speakers are set to "small". When playing the CD layer and letting the 674 do the bass management, I have similar output level on the subwoofer as when playing multichannel SACD.

It is not directly clear from the manual of 674: the reciever speaker levels are applied to the analogue inputs. This is nice since the player does not have that option.

krabapple

12-22-06, 12:32 PM

Theoretically, no. But nothing else currently available remotely in the price range I'm considering has i.Link, so it's as good as being Pioneer proprietary, in practice.

Although I'd like to leave open the door to future expansion, maybe with higher-end kit.

Interesting that the Yamaha 2500 had it. The 2700 doesn't. Which means that the 2700 is a downgrade - it can no longer output SACD digitally. Idiots.

How to knock yourself off a purchasing shortlist in one easy step. :rolleyes:

The Yamaha S2500 is still for sale at online retailers -- if you don't mind going the unauthorized route, it can be had for around $400 (or less if you buy a refurb unit).

It's too bad Pioneer never released a low-priced uniplayer that had ilink.

KMO

12-22-06, 05:35 PM

Can't see it in many places here in England. And the few that have it are pricing it at £695 (about $1350, at current exchange rates). Not much of a bargain, but about the same as the 2700 :)

Interestingly, one UK seller of the 2700 says "HDMI v1.2a allows SACD playback through HDMI". Don't think that's right, unless they know something we don't...

krabapple

12-22-06, 08:15 PM

HDMI 1.2 spec does permit DSD passage digitally. That's one of its new features over 1.1. I don't know of any player/receiver combo that's actually implemented that feature though.

KMO

12-23-06, 05:25 AM

Sorry, that wasn't clear, was it? I meant that was listed as one of the features of the DVD-S2700.

The Marantz SR7001/SR8001 and Yamaha RX-V1700/V2700 support DSD over HDMI.

Although one US owner here has PM'ed me to say his RX-V?700 came with a little note saying the DSD decoder wasn't fitted...

JBLsound4645

12-23-06, 07:18 AM

Let’s juts put it this way shall we. If you had a few audio mixers on hand and where to re-plug the outputs from the AVR or AVP into the mixers inputs and then route them to the separate amplifiers, real easy mind you real easy…

Next set the levels up with a sine wave tone around 100Hz and adjust each output using the faders on the mixers and set each channel at -20db while keeping the fader at 0db on the AVR AVP. After you have set the levels play a few soundtracks like Star Wars Episode 2: Attack of the Clones and watch the levels on the opening of the film dance around.

Mind you, you will need at least x6 audio mixers one for the stereo left and right, one for the centre and LFE.1 and one for the surrounds. Like I said it’s real easy to set-up.

With this rather simple and affordable technique you can keep an eye on the output levels VS the amplifiers VS the loudspeakers.

Schlotkins

01-02-07, 10:26 PM

Any more work on the yamahas? I see they are still orange...

Thanks,
Chris

soundstage28

01-03-07, 09:32 AM

jacksonian

01-03-07, 10:39 AM

Why is it hard for you to believe? It makes perfect sense. And it's not just occurring with HD-DVD players, it's happening with my Panasonic BluRay as well. And Pioneer has confirmed that this is an actual problem and are supposedly working on a firmware fix.

bfdtv

01-03-07, 11:04 AM

After reading tons of posts about the LFE issue, it is hard for me to beleive that all of these receivers face the same issue. Is it possible that the issue is not with the receivers but the component that is passing PCM feeds? It would seem that the HD DVD player may be the culprit as most everyone's issue is beign reported with these players when decoding PCM. The HD DVD players are also responsible for an overall volume decrease as well when decoding 96khz. Some have reported no LFE issue with the PS3 when decoding PCM. Why is their a difference between receivers properly passing the LFE channel between HD DVD players and the PS3?It affects all LFE LPCM output through HDMI, regardless of the source. My Sony PS3, Toshiba A1, and Samsung BD player (before I returned it) all exhibit this problem with my Panasonic (XR57) and Pioneer HDMI receivers. It doesn't just impact Blu-ray and HD-DVD; it also affects the mulitchannel from DVD-A and SACD output through HDMI on DVD players.

Keep in mind that most of the HDMI receivers on the market today were designed well before there were any HD-DVD or Blu-ray players out in the wild. At the time these receivers were designed, we didn't have DVD players with HDMI audio output for SACD / DVD-A either.

The upcoming 2007 models will be the first receivers designed after HD-DVD and Blu-ray players actually became available.

bwclark

01-03-07, 12:25 PM

"After reading tons of posts about the LFE issue, it is hard for me to beleive that all of these receivers face the same issue."

According to this from page 1, the Denon 4306 does properly boost LFE. Correct?

Receivers boosting PCM LFE input by 10dB
Onkyo TX-NR1000, TX-NR5000E: can set +10dB, 0dB, -10dB, off; separate settings for PCM, DSD, DD, DTS and AAC
Onkyo TX-SR804E: can set +10dB, 0dB, -10dB, off; unified setting for PCM, DD and DTS
Denon AVR-2307CI, AVR-2807, AVR-3806, AVR-4306, AVR-4806CI(AVC-A11XVA): can set +10dB or 0dB; per-surround mode setting(?) - should allow separate settings for PCM, DSD, DD and DTS
Denon AVR-4806(AVC-A11XV): LFE control only affects DD and DTS, but PCM/DSD LFE gain is undocumentedly linked to analogue SW Level setting; reports suggest the default +15dB on SW Level may give +10dB on PCM LFE
Panasonic SA-XR700: no option, but appears to get it right
Yamaha RX-V1700/RX-V2700: No option. Latest test suggests it is okay, but earlier reports suggested otherwise. Still not totally sure

Mobius1138

01-03-07, 06:29 PM

KMO, or anybody else, know if the LFE bug exists on the Pio VSX-81TXV? Or is it just on the 82's and 84's? I don't have my HD-A2 yet so I can't confirm.

Thanks.

bfdtv

01-04-07, 02:13 AM

Mobius,

It exists on all Pioneer receivers. Pioneer has reportedly told some that they will issue a firmware update to address the issue on certain 2006 models. They've also fixed / addressed the issue on the 2007 models announced next week.

Mobius1138

01-04-07, 06:33 PM

Thanks for the info bfdtv. :)

dllewel

01-05-07, 04:09 PM

This is a great thread with lots of great info. I've read it and am trying to grasp the issue, and would appreciate any help...

So is the consensus that a HD-DVD or Blu-ray player (NOT performing bass management with all speakers set large in the player) connected via 5.1 analog outs to a non-HDMI receiver suffer from the issue of the LFE being 10 dB too low? I also have a Sony DVD/SACD player hooked up to analog inputs, and feel the bass is fine- however this may be because for music, there is more consistant bass in the main channels (not the .1)?

In my case my receiver (Lexicon RV-8) does digitize the analog inputs and supports bass mgmt and speaker distances via the 5.1 analog inputs. Since it performs bass mgmt with all speakers set to small and 80Hz xover, I guess it is possible the receiver is applying a 10db boost to the sub analog input in the 5.1a Film mode? A question for Lexicon I guess.

I'm unsure if I am suffering from attenuated LFE or not. Blu-ray titles watched with uncompressed PCM (like 5th element, Monster House, etc) sound really good. But X-men 3: The Last Stand left me feeling the bass was lacking a bit. X-men doesn't have uncompressed PCM, but a lossless DTS track that I guess the player can currently at best decode to the core 1.5Mbps stream.

I have a the standard DVD version of DVE. If I play the speaker test tones from DVE playing through the analog inputs and then compare to the same over the optical or coax input, would that be a good way to check?

Thanks again!

Greg Matty

01-06-07, 12:15 AM

My Onkyo 604 reproduced lousy LFE over HDMI and Optical. HDMI may make sense as it is PCM but according to the first post in this thread, bitstream is almost universally not a problem. My 604 also had cruddy LFE when listeneing to audio CD's which I believe are sent in PCM. Is this 10db issue to blame for what I experienced?

I tried an 804 at Circuit City and the settings are definitely different than they are with the 604 and 674. I'd buy the 804 if it wasn't $700.

Greg

dllewel

01-06-07, 12:04 PM

After testing last night, it appears the RV-8 does apply the 10dB boost to it's analog SW input. The easiest way to tell is to use the 'RV-8 Status' on the remote, which brings up level meters on the TV for all channels. It was easy to see the LFE was reaching the max of the scale over some test scenes with LFE, regardless of using the analog ins or bitstream over the optical in.

I'm guessing most analog ins behave this way, and it's more of a problem as originally posted with the multichannel PCM over HDMI.

KMO

01-07-07, 12:28 PM

My 604 also had cruddy LFE when listeneing to audio CD's which I believe are sent in PCM. Is this 10db issue to blame for what I experienced?
CDs don't have an LFE track, so that's nothing to do with the LFE problem discussed here. Sounds like you've got some general problem with your bass management.

Greg Matty

01-08-07, 11:59 PM

CDs don't have an LFE track, so that's nothing to do with the LFE problem discussed hear. Sounds like you've got some general problem with your bass management.

CD's not having an LFE track is good to point out, but I did set the crossover to 80hz and could hear something coming from the SW. Just not enough of it. The 604 is a pretty simple receiver to setup and I have been to Circuit City and Video Only and played around with them until I am certain I have tried every setting possible. I can't see that I missed a setup????

Maybe it isn't the .1 issue with this receiver, maybe it is not outputting LFE properly at all? Maybe my unit was defective? I admit the problem could still have been my fault but I have setup receivers before for myself and family member and this is the only one I couldn't get solved. I have made my mind up to get the 804 if nothing exciting debuts this week. That receiver at least has a way for me to verify the 10db thing.

Sorry for being paranoid about this topic but when I don't hear what I expect to hear, I tend to freak out. There is so much software in all electronic hardware these days that I can't help but think sometimes something gets missed. I felt bad returning a $400 receiver knowing there was a chance I had it setup wrong, but I would have felt worse keeping a unit that didn't sound right to my ears.

Greg

krabapple

01-09-07, 12:32 AM

Greg Matty

01-09-07, 10:19 AM

Your problem with bass-managed CDs suggests a fundamental calibration issue, not an LFE issue. Have you calibrated your system -- that is, used some internal or disc-written test tones to set the levels of each channel, measuring from your usual listening position? Also, have you set speaker distances?

If you have done all that correctly and still find the subwoofer isn't loud enough at your listening position, you perhaps simply prefer the sub to be louder than 'proper' level, and should just turn the sub up.

It is crucial that the measurements be done from where you usually listen, because room modes can cause bass to be overwhelming in some places in the room, and almost nonexistent in others.

I use the rat-shack SPL meter and have to have the sub's input turned almost all the way up as well as boost the sub level on the receiver. That got things close but the sound was real boomy, not tight and clear like I was used to getting. I know that doesn't make sense, but like I mentioned, I have set up a fair number of receivers and never had this problem. If I can get CC to price match an online retailer on the 804 I'll see if I like that one any better.

If HK would introduce an HDMI receiver that actually brought in audio I would consider one as my last two receivers have been HK's. I haven't see a change to their lineup in many months. Maybe they are due for a refresh at CES?

Greg

curtishd

01-09-07, 10:11 PM

Could someone break this down very simple like: if I buy say the panasonic xr57 what will I be missing (what will it sound like)? I want to watch BR movies.

jesyjames

01-09-07, 10:34 PM

So basically if I own a pioneer receiver my options are to run optical, set the speakers to large and boost the lfe for pcm +8(as measured by a previous user in this thread)... or run analogue, but that defeats MCACC and doesn't work with the PS3 to well... ? Am I missing a 4th better option?

curtishd

01-10-07, 02:24 PM

Can anyone confirm that the JVC RX-D402B will do 1080p and LPCM via hdmi with no LFE issues? And what about the Onkyo HT-S894?

Greg Matty

01-11-07, 10:11 AM

I use the rat-shack SPL meter and have to have the sub's input turned almost all the way up as well as boost the sub level on the receiver. That got things close but the sound was real boomy, not tight and clear like I was used to getting. I know that doesn't make sense, but like I mentioned, I have set up a fair number of receivers and never had this problem. If I can get CC to price match an online retailer on the 804 I'll see if I like that one any better.

If HK would introduce an HDMI receiver that actually brought in audio I would consider one as my last two receivers have been HK's. I haven't see a change to their lineup in many months. Maybe they are due for a refresh at CES?

Greg

To close out this situation I'll say that I am now the owner of the 804 and I have zero LFE issues. I did all the setups with the manual still in the box. LFE is much better than with the 604. I think my 604 must have been bad.

Greg

DReilly1

01-11-07, 12:32 PM

I know this is an older Model, but one of theri best at the time.

I am about to purchase a Toshiba A2 HD-DVD Player, just curious if anyone knows how the avr 3300 handles these audio issues?

Thanks

rlb4

01-14-07, 04:20 PM

bimmerguy288

01-20-07, 09:11 PM

It affects all LFE LPCM output through HDMI, regardless of the source. My Sony PS3, Toshiba A1, and Samsung BD player (before I returned it) all exhibit this problem with my Panasonic (XR57) and Pioneer HDMI receivers. It doesn't just impact Blu-ray and HD-DVD; it also affects the mulitchannel from DVD-A and SACD output through HDMI on DVD players.

Keep in mind that most of the HDMI receivers on the market today were designed well before there were any HD-DVD or Blu-ray players out in the wild. At the time these receivers were designed, we didn't have DVD players with HDMI audio output for SACD / DVD-A either.

The upcoming 2007 models will be the first receivers designed after HD-DVD and Blu-ray players actually became available.

Hi bfdtv, would you mind telling us J6P how you deal with the low LFE problem with both your Toshiba HD DVD palyer and the PS3? Thanks much.

richard plumb

01-23-07, 01:04 PM

Ktulu_1

01-23-07, 01:48 PM

Sorry to ask such a stupid question but does this LFE problem only apply when using an HD-DVD or Blue Ray player? I'm looking to get the Onkyo 604 and for now I'm using a Panasonic S97 dvd player and all I want is Dolby Digital 5.1 and DTS 5.1. I probably will be getting a HD-DVD or Blue Ray player in about a year or two, so I want to make sure my reciever will still be able to do DD and DTS 5.1 properly. Thanks is advance.

Not a stupid question at all.

The "LFE issue" is only a problem with audio input as LPCM. Bitstream (undecoded audio like DTS, Dolby Digital, etc.) is not affected. Essentially, when the receiver or pre/pro decodes the audio codec there is no problem.

Some DVD players and other devices can output LPCM. They will be deficient on the LFE channel. Most of those devices can also output "bitstream" so the problem is easily resolved.

Current receivers cannot decode the new audio codecs on HD DVDs and Blu-Ray Discs. These must be decoded in the player and sent out as LPCM to realize the full potential of new sound formats. This is why the problem seems to be synonymous with HD DVD and Blu-Ray but it's not really a problem with either of those formats the problem is with LPCM.

ncfoster

01-23-07, 02:44 PM

I would never have given any of this much thought, as I think that my DVD-Audio playback is probably fine as is. However, sometimes more information can be a bad thing. :)

So, now I am wondering whether there is any tweaking necessary on my Toshiba SD-4800 and Onkyo TX-SR602 combination for DVD-Audio playback. Neither of these players has HDMI, so this is strictly an analog issue.

The multi-channel input on the 602 has a setting for "Subwoofer sensitivity", which is currently set at 0dB, and can be adjusted up to +5, +10 or +15dB.

My initial inclination is that this is correct. However, I would love to hear from others as to whether they know of any issues with this setup. Thanks.

Nathan

richard plumb

01-23-07, 03:17 PM

Ktulu_1

01-23-07, 03:38 PM

Ktulu_1,

are you saying there *is* this issue with LPCM on the .1 channel with the onkyo 674?

Nope. I don't know anything about the Onkyo 674. The question was, "Sorry to ask such a stupid question but does this LFE problem only apply when using an HD-DVD or Blue Ray player?" My post only applies to that.

richard plumb

01-23-07, 04:06 PM

ok, thanks for clarifying

arib0nd

01-26-07, 08:22 AM

Ktulu_1,

are you saying there *is* this issue with LPCM on the .1 channel with the onkyo 674?

In that case, if I apply some corrective measures - eg lower the other channels to compensate and somehow get that 10dB back in for LPCM (my only option for lossless audio from my PS3 and HD-E1), then won't that all be out of whack when I play a DVD and pass the bitstream to the receiver for decoding?

Surely this is *the* most common setup people will use these HDMI receivers for. I can't beleive they can get such basic things wrong, especially when they get them right for bitstream sources (optical/coax)

I'm starting to get cold feet on this receiver and might just get the sony 3200ES which seems not to have this issue (and I have a Sony receiver now so I'm familar with their usability)

I own a Onkyo Sr-604, and a Toshiba HD-DVD player and I don't think the SR-604 (and then probably the SR-674) has this issue. To be honest my bass sounds awesome, I can't imagine that it is 10 db too low, because if it was 10 db higher, I think my ears would be bleeding (or is that my bones..?). I also played a regular DVD in my Toshiba player and switched it from Bitstream out (receiver doing the decoding and thus 100% not having LFE issue) and then to PCM out (where lacking bass could be an issue if it wasnt handling LFE right), and I thought I heard a slight difference in bass but it was so subtle that I was probably imagining it,and I have been told a 10db difference in Bass should be apparent in one's sleep.

So to wrap up, I don't think the Onkyo Sr-604 (and I am sure the Sr-674) have any LFE issues. The disclaimer is that I am not an audiophile, and the Sr-604 and the Infinity Primus are the first receiver and speakers I have ever owned.

For whatever thats worth.. Good luck!

mczolton

01-26-07, 09:11 AM

I own a Onkyo Sr-604, and a Toshiba HD-DVD player and I don't think the SR-604 (and then probably the SR-674) has this issue. To be honest my bass sounds awesome, I can't imagine that it is 10 db too low, because if it was 10 db higher, I think my ears would be bleeding (or is that my bones..?). I also played a regular DVD in my Toshiba player and switched it from Bitstream out (receiver doing the decoding and thus 100% not having LFE issue) and then to PCM out (where lacking bass could be an issue if it wasnt handling LFE right), and I thought I heard a slight difference in bass but it was so subtle that I was probably imagining it,and I have been told a 10db difference in Bass should be apparent in one's sleep.

So to wrap up, I don't think the Onkyo Sr-604 (and I am sure the Sr-674) have any LFE issues. The disclaimer is that I am not an audiophile, and the Sr-604 and the Infinity Primus are the first receiver and speakers I have ever owned.

For whatever thats worth.. Good luck!

If you have 5.1ch analog inputs, have you tried those? I ask because I have an Integra DTR-6.5 and via coaxial bitstream/PCM, I don't have an issue with the subwoofer output. However, via 5.1ch analog, I do. I don't have HDMI for audio. Just a thought.

Mark

bimmerguy288

01-26-07, 11:23 AM

I just stopped by the A/V store where I bought my Yamaha RXV2700 receiver. It sells mid to high end A/V stuff and does a lot of home installation work. I asked one of the guys there if he knew anything about the low LFE issue with certain receivers, he said no. Interesting enough, they have a set up there with a Toshiba HD A2 connected to a Yamaha RXV1700 via BOTH HDMI and optical. It was getting pretty good bass. The RXV1700 showed it was playing dolby digital. I guess it was coming from the optical, not the HDMI. He was busy so I didn't feel like asking him too many questions.

arib0nd

01-26-07, 12:44 PM

If you have 5.1ch analog inputs, have you tried those? I ask because I have an Integra DTR-6.5 and via coaxial bitstream/PCM, I don't have an issue with the subwoofer output. However, via 5.1ch analog, I do. I don't have HDMI for audio. Just a thought.

Mark

I do have 5.1ch analog, but I don't feel like running so many wires. I guess I didn't make it clear in my original post, I am using HDMI for audio. So as far as I am concerned, the Sr-604 doesn't have the LFE issue.

skoolpsyk

02-02-07, 02:42 PM

krabapple

02-04-07, 03:25 AM

Not a stupid question at all.

The "LFE issue" is only a problem with audio input as LPCM. Bitstream (undecoded audio like DTS, Dolby Digital, etc.) is not affected. Essentially, when the receiver or pre/pro decodes the audio codec there is no problem.

Some DVD players and other devices can output LPCM. They will be deficient on the LFE channel. Most of those devices can also output "bitstream" so the problem is easily resolved.

All devices that output CDs digitally (optical or coax) can output LPCM -- that's the CD format. There's nothing special about LPCM. But optical/coax can't pass more than two-channels of 16/44 PCM (that's all it has the bandwidth for), and can't pass hi-rez copy-protected PCM as output from DVD-A and the high-def DVD soundtracks (after decoding in the player). HDMI 1.1 and up can do both.

Speedskater

02-04-07, 01:16 PM

All devices that output CDs digitally (optical or coax) can output LPCM -- that's the CD format. There's nothing special about LPCM. But optical/coax can't pass more than two-channels of 16/44 PCM (that's all it has the bandwidth for), and can't pass hi-rez copy-protected PCM as output from DVD-A and the high-def DVD soundtracks (after decoding in the player). HDMI 1.1 and up can do both.
I think the reasons are political not technical, for the limitations on optical/co-ax digital audio.

krabapple

02-04-07, 02:38 PM

You're right -- wikipedia reminds me that toslink used to be limited to 48 kHz at 20 bits but now can pass 125 Mbps, which is more than enough for 6 channels of 96/24 audio (96,000 samples/sec * 24 bits/sample * 6 channels = ~14 Mbps) My mistake.

epsilon72

02-05-07, 11:22 PM

krabapple

02-06-07, 11:38 AM

As best as I can determine, all the Pioneers Elites have the PCM LFE problem. The firmware solution is on its way to some (but apparently not all) authorized repair shops now.

One workaround is to use the multichannel analog inputs and apply the adjustment to the subwoofer input there (there is a function for this described in the manual). But then you lose bass management, delay, MCACC (none of which can be applied to the multichannel analog inputs).

Alternately, you can make an adjustment in your player (either raise the LFE or lower the other channels), but the same restrictions may apply -- i.e., works only with analog output.

Either way the LFE signal has to be boosted SEPARATELY from the summed bass from 'small' channels. So if there is bass management going on, the LFE adjustment must take place before the channels are summed.

fsullivan3

02-06-07, 12:06 PM

I have a Pioneer Elite VSX-81TXV, which evidently has the LFE issue (soon to be fixed by firmware update), and I have a motorola HD DVR cable box, connected to the receiver by HDMI.

In the cable box options, I can choose Dolby Digital or PCM for digital out. Using Dolby Digital, is there an LFE issue? If I switch to PCM, then I would have an LFE issue? I understand that this would only be on the HD channels with 5.1 audio.

Can my cable box actually take a 5.1 signal and I guess uncompress it, then send it to my receiver?

When I get a dolby digital source, the receiver indicates on the front display which channels are being utilized. When I get a PCM source, it simply displays PCM on the front display.

scottd327

02-06-07, 12:20 PM

Can my cable box actually take a 5.1 signal and I guess uncompress it, then send it to my receiver?

No. Your cable box is downmixing the 5.1 Dolby Digital signal to a 2.0 PCM signal (for customers who's receiver or TV cannot process dolby digital). You want to select the DD output.

KMO

02-06-07, 12:21 PM

No receiver I'm aware of has a problem if you're feeding a Dolby Digital bitstream to it. But some receivers do have an LFE Level control that affects it; you need to make sure its at its highest setting, which will probably be labelled "0dB".

I suspect your cable box only outputs a 2-channel PCM downmix, not 5.1-channel PCM. The PCM option is there for normal TVs that don't have a Dolby Digital decoder.

fsullivan3

02-06-07, 12:27 PM

Thanks, fellas. That makes sense.

My old Toshiba DVD player has a switch on the back, that you can set on PCM or Digital. I'm assuming that PCM refers to a downmixed 2.0, as well.

epsilon72

02-06-07, 02:44 PM

Does the Pioneer VSX-81TXV suffer from this problem? I see similar models on the original list but not that specific one...

Are there any workarounds besides always adjusting the bass level if there is indeed a problem?

I just called Pioneer, and they said the 81 never had a problem, and has never been "updated" like the 82 and 84 were in December-ish.

fsullivan3

02-06-07, 03:12 PM

I just called Pioneer, and they said the 81 never had a problem, and has never been "updated" like the 82 and 84 were in December-ish.

A local tech also just told me that he has access to a support website, and that the 82 and 84 have updates, but not the 81. He is calling to check and see if there is one in the works or not.

epsilon72

02-06-07, 04:47 PM

A local tech also just told me that he has access to a support website, and that the 82 and 84 have updates, but not the 81. He is calling to check and see if there is one in the works or not.

can you confirm that the 81 actually had a problem to begin with?

EDIT:

This is the ONLY 81 (not 82 or 84) owner that I've seen talk about the issue -

http://www.highdefforum.com/showpost.php?p=183051&postcount=8

Everyone else seems like they are guessing from what the other ones (82 and 84) do with the LFE.

I'm going to take a chance and buy the 81, and if it does in fact have the problem, I'll just return it.

krabapple

02-06-07, 05:17 PM

I just called Pioneer, and they said the 81 never had a problem, and has never been "updated" like the 82 and 84 were in December-ish.

Are you quite sure they were talking about the LFE problem, and not the HDMI video problem? Because the HDMI problem HAS been corrected in production. AFAIK, the LFE problem has not. And it would be extremely odd for the 81 to have never had the LFE problem, when both the 7x and 8x series did. (Pioneer tells me that the firmware LFE fix for the 74txvi is now being distributed to service centers)

epsilon72

02-06-07, 10:21 PM

Are you quite sure they were talking about the LFE problem, and not the HDMI video problem? Because the HDMI problem HAS been corrected in production. AFAIK, the LFE problem has not. And it would be extremely odd for the 81 to have never had the LFE problem, when both the 7x and 8x series did. (Pioneer tells me that the firmware LFE fix for the 74txvi is now being distributed to service centers)

That's what they told me...I asked them if the updates for all of the 8x series receivers were able to fix the LFE issue (and I specifically said "LFE and subwoofer when describing the issue), and they then told me that while the 82 and 84 did receive updates that fixed the issue (?), -

-the 80 did not need a fix, since it can only act as a pass-through
and
-the 81 did not need a fix at all, because there is/was no LFE problem. I asked the rep if they were really sure about this, and they said yes, that is the notification that they all received regarding 8x issues. I asked them what would happen if I bought one that DID have an issue, and they said that I should call them so they can get working on the problem, because apparently there isn't one right now...
:confused: :confused:

I'm still sort of confused, but I think I'm still going to go ahead and buy this thing...

krabapple

02-06-07, 11:26 PM

That's what they told me...I asked them if the updates for all of the 8x series receivers were able to fix the LFE issue (and I specifically said "LFE and subwoofer when describing the issue), and they then told me that while the 82 and 84 did receive updates that fixed the issue (?), -

-the 80 did not need a fix, since it can only act as a pass-through

and
-the 81 did not need a fix at all, because there is/was no LFE problem. I asked the rep if they were really sure about this, and they said yes, that is the notification that they all received regarding 8x issues. I asked them what would happen if I bought one that DID have an issue, and they said that I should call them so they can get working on the problem, because apparently there isn't one right now...
:confused: :confused:

I'm still sort of confused, but I think I'm still going to go ahead and buy this thing...

Actually, that makes sense about the 80. If the 80 can only pass-through HDMI audio, then it has no digital LFE issue (because there's no digital multichannel PCM input). In fact the only way to pass multichannel PCM in this system would be after converting to analog in the player.

I'm still skeptical about the 81 (why that one and not others that can accept mc PCM via HDMI?) but clearly it bears more investigating, so I'll be less dogmatic until there are more reports. Once you have an 81, try passing HD/Blu-ray multichannel via HDMI, or try a mc DVD-A via HDMI, and compare the LFE to the Dolby Digital LFE passed as bitstream.

epsilon72

02-06-07, 11:41 PM

Actually, that makes sense about the 80. If the 80 can only pass-through HDMI audio, then it has no digital LFE issue (because there's no digital multichannel PCM input). In fact the only way to pass multichannel PCM in this system would be after converting to analog in the player.

I'm still skeptical about the 81 (why that one and not others that can accept mc PCM via HDMI?) but clearly it bears more investigating, so I'll be less dogmatic until there are more reports. Once you have an 81, try passing HD/Blu-ray multichannel via HDMI, or try a mc DVD-A via HDMI, and compare the LFE to the Dolby Digital LFE passed as bitstream.

It is the cheapest of the current-model HDMI audio Elites...maybe it's because it has different hardware than the 82/84? (no scaler, so different HDMI hardware?) The 7xxx series are older, so I can see why they would have the problem. I'll keep my fingers crossed.

I'm not sure exactly when I'll be getting it, but it'll hopefully be within a week or so...

I'll test it out with Resistance: Fall of Man and Xmen 3 played on the PS3 through PCM.

I'll probably call Pioneer again as well to see if I get the same story.

If I get the PCM LFE problem though, I'll likely just return it and wait for another decent deal on a 7.1 HDMI PCM receiver.

krabapple

02-07-07, 12:04 AM

Well, inspired by these posts, I finally tested the Pioneer 74txvi, using the Chesky 'Ultimate Surround' test disc (which has DVD-A and Dolby Digital 5.1 setup tracks). Used track 5, the 5.1 channel level track, compared as DVD-A (PCM) vs DD (bitstream) output from an Oppo970HD via HDMI . Each of the five speaker channels were within 1 dB of each other comparing DVD-A to DD, using a Rat Shack meter...but the subwoofer went from ~0 db at the measuring position playing the DVD-A version, to off the scale (so, at least +6 dB greater) playing the DD version.

So,yeah, the 74txvi seems definitely to have the LFE issue (via HDMi at least...still need to check ilink). I'll be taking it to a shop on LI soon to have it upgraded.

But I have to wonder, has anyone really checked whether this issue affects SACDs? It affects DVD-A because apparently DVD-A LFE production tends to conform to Dolby Digital standard (recorded @-10 dB compared to other channels, expecting a boost at playback). If this is NOT the case for SACDs, won't the firmware upgrade actually make SACD LFE 10dB too loud (if passed as PCM...and maybe native DSD)? Hmmmm....

KMO

02-07-07, 04:11 AM

Good post krabapple. I'd appreciate it if you could check i.Link too.

Now, I'm also concerned about SACD. I don't want to be faffing around with holding buttons down while I power on the receiver just to play SACD.

The problem with SACD is that they use a non-standard LFE level. (Muppets). The question is, how do you deal with this?

I can see a few options for the player:

1) SACD player outputs the LFE as is, no indication that the LFE doesn't need boost.
2) SACD player outputs the LFE as is, but signals somehow that the LFE doesn't need boost.
3) SACD player lowers the LFE by 10dB to put it at normal level.

For SACD players like the Oppo and Sony PS3 that output PCM over HDMI, they'd almost certainly do "3". For their analogue outputs, most multiformat players also do "3", but SACD-only players generally don't.

Now, what do players with i.Link and HDMI outputting DSD do? Option 3, lowering by 10dB, is not as trivial for DSD as it is for PCM, so I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't do it. Although I think that would be the most technically correct solution. And for HDMI, option 2 - signalling that the LFE is high-level - doesn't appear to exist. But maybe it does for i.Link.

If SACD players don't lower the LFE, one heuristic may be that receivers just assume that "LFE delivered over DSD doesn't need a 10dB boost". This would be a hack, as this boost is nothing to do with DSD, it's part of the SACD spec. Another delivery format using DSD (can't Blu-ray use it, for example?), almost certainly would have normal LFE levels.

Also, I think the copy protection info in HDMI might suffice to tell the receiver that the source was actually SACD, in which case they might decide not to boost the LFE. I've seen receivers like Onkyo's that offer different manual LFE boost settings for different input types including SACD.

I'm going to be using an 84, if I get it, coupled with a Pioneer DVD-A/SACD player over i.Link, so I want to be assured that this is going to work seamlessly without reconfiguring between formats. Or it's back to Denon for me...

Any results from someone with a similar setup, after the patch, will be greatly appreciated.

krabapple

02-07-07, 10:44 AM

I'll try to test ilink soon. In the meantime, you can add the 74txvi to the list of 'Does not do the 10dB boost to HDMI LFE' receivers. It does not have user-adjustable LFE for bitstream/other 'raw' digital input as far as I can tell. It does have the +10dB boost available for the multichannel analog panel input, but using that means forgoing most of the DSP, including room correction and bass management.

Btw I'm still trying to track down where you go this information about the Oppo

Oppo 970HD: Can bass manage and level adjust HDMI output; unfortunately this means LFE is 15dB low to make room, even with bass management off

If this is true, I would perhaps not notice this unless I was comparing two players, which I suppose I can do as a test (I have a Yamaha S2500 also).

scottd327

02-07-07, 11:38 AM

I think Krabapple's test hit this LFE issue right on the head; the dolby digital LFE is boosted, but not the PCM input. When playing back a DVD-Audio disc via bitstream DD, does the bass sound hot relative to DVD-Audio version? In almost every DVD-Audio disc I have with a strong LFE track that is the case.

That leads me to believe that there is no boost being applied to incoming DIGITAL DVD-Audio, DSD or Multi LPCM signals on any current receiver, unless, like in the Onkyos only, there is an LFE boost option. Of course the top-end Onkyo, TX-NR1000, that appears to do it right via ilink, is only HDMI 1.0, so there was no intention when designed to boost multichannel LPCM signals from HD or BD players. For the other 1.1 Onkyo, the 804, it is a global boost setting (DD, PCM and DTS), which you would think would make DD and DTS bitstream soundtracks way too bass hot.

Also, there were no HD or BD players on the market at the time Denon started applying the 0 to -10db LFE to its digital multichannel in. It was put there simply for DVD-Audio and SACD via ilink or Denon Link and DVD-Audio only via HDMI.

Consequently, if there was no intention to boost DVD-Audio or SACD LFE by 10db, there certainly would be no boost for PCM or TrueHD soundtracks' LFE. Again, everyone is focusing on LFE issue for Pioneer Elites, but after putting all the different posts together, my conclusion is that all the current HDMI 1.1 or higher receivers suffer from the issue.

But is it an issue? The only posters (including myself) verifying the issue are doing so my measuring SD DVDs DD soundtracks. There has always been an issue with those soundtracks decoded in players, that is one of the reasons why Analog SW boosts were added to receivers. However, how do we know that the BD and HD-DVD players are not already adding the boost to the LFE when decoding the advanced codecs or that the boost is not already in the uncompressed PCM soundtrack? Can any one think of a way to test the latter theory?

KMO

02-07-07, 11:39 AM

Yes, I'm a bit remiss on my sourcing. I suppose I should have included links to posts giving the info. Sorry.

If the Oppo is doing that, it should be quite noticeable comparing bitstream and PCM output; but if you can adjust channel levels in the Oppo any relative error can be compensated for.

Now, I've had a report from scottd327 that his Denon 3806 is apparently outputting PCM LFE 6dB too low (or -16dB too low, depending on the LFE setting). With the same player, he's getting the expected -10dB from the Pioneer 84 and Denon 4806 (for which the SW Level trick isn't working). That 6dB difference is measured relative to bitstream output, having adjusted the mains to the same level in each case.

Can anyone explain/replicate this?

KMO

02-07-07, 11:47 AM

scottd,

The players can't boost the LFE when outputting through HDMI. You can't boost a maximum-amplitude digital signal, if there are no extra bits to boost it to. You'd clip.

KMO

02-07-07, 11:59 AM

Another thing to bear in mind in all this, is that the interconnects should be standardised. There really should be any issue about different calibrations for different formats. It's the player's job to format what's on the disc to the correct form for the output connector.

Just as you shouldn't have to reorder your RGB connections when switching from VHS to DVD, or turn the brightness up and down as you switch from SD to HD, you shouldn't have to manually fiddle LFE levels as you switch formats. The interconnect should define the levels.

And the only sensible standard definition for any interconnect is for the LFE to be transmitted 10dB down, needing a 10dB boost at the sink. This is because international standards and industry practice record the LFE in this way. If any formats don't use the 10dB LFE difference (such as SACD), then it's trivial for the player to lower the LFE by 10dB before outputting it through the link, so it matches the other sources.

If LFE was specified to cross HDMI at equal level, then the other channels on a 5.1 movie disc would have to be lowered by 10dB to match the LFE, leaving 10dB of main channel headroom unused. And what about all the existing 2.0 devices? They're using the full range of the left and right. The levels of 2.0 and 5.1 PCM HDMI sources could never match. It would be a nightmare.

The problem is that the HDMI spec doesn't appear to state explicitly that the LFE level should follow international standards. Unless it's included by reference to CEA-861-D, a standard I haven't seen.

scottd327

02-07-07, 12:04 PM

KMO:

I understand. But then what about my other theory that this lack of boost exists in all 1.1 or higher HDMI receivers? Although the 1.1 spec included the ability to pass up to 8 channels of LPCM, was it anticipated by the manufacturers that this would necessitate a movie soundtrack type LFE boost?

If this is in fact the case then every HD and BD owner and reviewer who has listened to a DD+, TrueHD or PCM soundtrack has heard it with the LFE 10db too low!!!! Something is just not making sense here.

KMO

02-07-07, 12:48 PM

Your 3806 result is anomalous. All other reports from Denon owners (post-4806) indicate the LFE is at the expected level. I've also had no complaints from Onkyo owners, and sketchy information from Marantz owners suggests they're okay.

So, to be honest, it's only Pioneer I know for certain are doing it wrong. But I can't explain your 3806.

krabapple

02-07-07, 12:56 PM

Yes, I'm a bit remiss on my sourcing. I suppose I should have included links to posts giving the info. Sorry.

If the Oppo is doing that, it should be quite noticeable comparing bitstream and PCM output; but if you can adjust channel levels in the Oppo any relative error can be compensated for.

I need more information on this putative Oppo issue. Are you saying it only affects PCM, and not bitstream, via HDMI (which I would expect, as bitstream's left 'raw' from source to output)? If so, then it's possible the difference I measured was due to this peculiar Oppo issue rather than the Pioneer. My Oppo settings have all speakers large, subwoofer ON, channel levels at default (= 0 boost or cut I presume) distances all equal at default -- in other words, bass management OFF, but according to the claim in the sticky post, the LFE cut would still be applied. (just FYI, the Oppo HDMI audio is set to Auto, digital output to 'Raw'.)

If the Oppo proves problematic, I'll just redo the test on the Yamaha, which I have to use anyway to test ilink LFE.

krabapple

02-07-07, 12:59 PM

scottd,

The players can't boost the LFE when outputting through HDMI.

-- unless the player first lowers the signal by default, as it is suggested the Oppo does. The presence of a channel 'boost' capability for a digital output would support this suggestion. (Many players have only a 'cut' option).

The Oppo also has a 'global' (all channels) output level boost, btw (accessible as the level button on the remote, shows as a set of graded green bars on screen). IIRC the default is 0. I don't recall whether this works for HDMI output or not though.

KMO

02-07-07, 01:01 PM

All the speaker-type settings on the Oppo will only affect decoded PCM output. Bitstream output just comes off the disc without the player touching it.

As I understand it, if my info is correct, then with your settings, given a correctly functioning receiver that applied a +10dB LFE boost, you would see a -5dB or -6dB drop on the PCM LFE compared to the bitstream.

However, you could compensate for that by lowering all the other channels 5dB. Or indeed boosting LFE 5dB, if it lets you.

lovingdvd

02-07-07, 01:07 PM

I found a local dealer that has a Yamaha 1700 and explained the LFE issue we are concerned about. He actually knew what I was talking about so this was a great start.

He agreed to move things around so that we could test this in the store. So I will return shortly with my copy of DVE and Radio Shack sound meter.

Because I will have only one crack at this I want to make sure I have all my ducks in a row and get the test right, and know what I'm doing so I'm not putzing around and wasting his time.

Below is an overview of how I plan to test this, followed by some questions. I'd greatly appreciate feedback on this:

A) Connect the HD-A2 to the Yamaha RX-V1700 using HDMI

B) Set the A2 to BitStream

C) Using DVE play the 5.1 pink noise for the LEFT channel

D) Turn up the volume so I am reading 75dB on the meter set to weight C/Slow with the meter dial on 70. Note the exact location of the sound meter so all future readings are taken from the same position.

E) Using DVE play the 5.1 pink noise for the LFE channel. If it is not relatively balanced with the LEFT channel, I'll use the 1700's sub level control or volume control on the sub itself to balance it closer to 75dB. Then note the exact dB reading for the LFE channel.

F) Switch the A2 from BitStream to PCM.

G) Using DVE play the 5.1 pink noise again for the LFE channel. Note its dB level. If it is about 8dB or less of the less than the reading from step E then I will conclude the 1700 does not have the issue.

H) As a sanity check, I will also go back and check the dB reading at this point from the LEFT channel again. I'd expect it to be about the same as the reading in step D. If not I will also compare the LFE reading relative to this. For example if the LFE reading under PCM is -10dB compared to BitStream, but so is the dB level for the left channel, than it may not have the LFE issue afterall.
---

A few questions:

1) Do I have this process correct, and are there any other suggestions for how to go about this?

2) I am totally unfamiliar with the HD-A2 I'lll be using in this test. Can someone please tell me step by step how to use its menus to switch between BitStream and PCM? It may be very obvious and simple, but I just want to ask because I don't want to risk standing there in the store and being uncertain how to do this.

3) Are the audio options I want to choose (Bitstream vs. PCM) going to be obvious? For example, is there just one "BitStream" option, and one "PCM" options? Or are there multiple PCM options for example - and if so, which do I want to choose? Again I'm probably over analyzing this but want to make sure I know exactly what I need to do to accurately perform this test as I'm only getting one chance to get this right.

4) Are there any indicator lights or settings on the 1700 LED panel I can look for to confirm that indeed the A2 is outputting Bitstream vs. PCM?

Thanks. I plan to perform this test tomorrow and will report back here on what my readings and observations were so we can discuss.

krabapple

02-07-07, 01:10 PM

KMO: Good point. I'll see if I can get a more exact measure of the difference between DD and DVD-A LFE , using the current Oppo setup.

However, if the Oppo allows level boost for all channels for digital output, then wouldn't it have to apply a default cut to ALL channels, not just the LFE channel, in order to avoid clipping if the user decided to , say, boost the center channel to the max?

If so, I would have expected to see a notable DD vs DVD-A difference between all the channels , yet I only measured a substantial one for the LFE channel.

Or am I making an incorrect presumption about required headroom for non-LFE channels?

KMO

02-07-07, 01:26 PM

Test procedure looks basically sound, but it is likely that there will be an absolute difference in level between PCM and bitstream output for Dolby Digital. This is due to inconsistencies in handling of dialogue normalisation.

{With player decode, I assume it's the player's job to lower its outputs if the dialnorm tells it to (which it usually does, by about 4dB) - it may be that the player doesn't lower, but the receiver does when handling the bitstream. Or it may be that the player does lower, but then the receiver proceeds to lower by another 4dB erroneously, due to inconsistent calibration between PCM and bitstream input. Who knows?}

So match the level of the mains first after switching to PCM.

I'm not familiar with DVE, but hopefully we can trust its test signals to be correct, and only in the channels they claim to be. Anyone care to comment?

The 1700 will clearly show whether it's getting PCM or Dolby Digital input in its front panel display. It has a light for each.

One thing to be wary of with the Toshiba HD DVD players is that I've seen reports of dodgy up-sampling of 48kHz sources to 96kHz. I'm not clear which players or types of discs this applies to - be wary of this. Search the HD DVD player forum. I understand this behaviour is controlled by enabling 96kHz output on the S/PDIF, bizarrely.

The manual for the 1700 suggests you can check the sampling rate by going to "SET MENU=>SIGNAL INFO".

KMO

02-07-07, 01:30 PM

However, if the Oppo allows level boost for all channels for digital output, then wouldn't it have to apply a default cut to ALL channels, not just the LFE channel, in order to avoid clipping if the user decided to , say, boost the center channel to the max?

If so, I would have expected to see a notable DD vs DVD-A difference between all the channels , yet I only measured a substantial one for the LFE channel.

Or am I making an incorrect presumption about required headroom for non-LFE channels?
You're right. I doubt it applies a universal cut, if the trims are set at 0dB. So any boost would be in danger of clipping, with the exception of LFE - if it is applying a specific cut to it and bass management is off. I doubt it actually will offer a boost, to be honest. I was just chucking that in as a random passing thought.

Kevin12586

02-07-07, 01:30 PM

lovingdvd, can you check if the 1700 will apply PLIIx to a 5.1 pcm track?

mimason

02-07-07, 01:34 PM

Ditto that ^

scottd327

02-07-07, 01:36 PM

All the speaker-type settings on the Oppo will only affect decoded PCM output. Bitstream output just comes off the disc without the player touching it.

As I understand it, if my info is correct, then with your settings, given a correctly functioning receiver that applied a +10dB LFE boost, you would see a -5dB or -6dB drop on the PCM LFE compared to the bitstream.

Would this also explain why i am seeing around -6 db on the PCM LFE with the 3806?

KMO

02-07-07, 02:41 PM

Mmm, don't think so. You're not seeing it on the other receivers. And the player you're using doesn't have bass management, does it?

krabapple

02-07-07, 02:59 PM

You're right. I doubt it applies a universal cut, if the trims are set at 0dB. So any boost would be in danger of clipping, with the exception of LFE - if it is applying a specific cut to it and bass management is off. I doubt it actually will offer a boost, to be honest. I was just chucking that in as a random passing thought.

Actually looking at the user manual, the individual channel level setup option is called 'channel trim', which suggest it allows cuts only -- however, in fact it's a set of 6 virtual sliders with the slider set in the middle -- 'zero' -- with equal play up and down. So you can boost or cut any channel, at least with reference to the default '0' value. If this does actually affect HDMI output it suggests that the default value us something below full scale, otherwise surely clipping could result.

I've got an email in to Oppo now, asking them to clarify what's actually happening with digital channel adjustments and default levels.

lovingdvd

02-07-07, 03:01 PM

So match the level of the mains first after switching to PCM.

OK, so to be clear, I need to use the 1700's built in test tones to set the levels front/sub levels to match, both for Bitstream and PCM before doing the comparison with DVE. So essentially what I am comparing is the test tone dB level of the LEFT relative to the sub to make sure that matches, and then do the same except use the pink noise from DVE and see what if any disparity there is. Do I have this right?

I'm not familiar with DVE, but hopefully we can trust its test signals to be correct, and only in the channels they claim to be. Anyone care to comment?

I've listened to these tracks and can at least confirm that they are solo - in other words when you play the LFE pink noise the other speakers (besides the sub) are silent FWIW.

One thing to be wary of with the Toshiba HD DVD players is that I've seen reports of dodgy up-sampling of 48kHz sources to 96kHz. I'm not clear which players or types of discs this applies to - be wary of this. Search the HD DVD player forum. I understand this behaviour is controlled by enabling 96kHz output on the S/PDIF, bizarrely.

That is a bit over my head so I won't be taking that into consideration. When I report the results others can comment on whether that could have affected the results.

The manual for the 1700 suggests you can check the sampling rate by going to "SET MENU=>SIGNAL INFO".

Sounds good. What sampling rate am I looking for?

As an aside - I will also bring my HD DVD copy of King Kong with me and play it with some heavy bass scenes, both in Bitstream and PCM. Although I've never experienced or listened for the LFE issue before, by all accounts it seems like it should be pretty obvious that the LFE is lacking if the issue is present?

lovingdvd

02-07-07, 03:03 PM

lovingdvd

02-07-07, 03:05 PM

lovingdvd, can you check if the 1700 will apply PLIIx to a 5.1 pcm track?

I'll be happy to check it. However I am not at all familiar with PLIIx. Please let me know EXACTLY (and I mean spelled out to a T) what steps I should do to test this, and what to look and/or listen for to know if it is doing PLIIx.

krabapple

02-07-07, 03:59 PM

OK, so to be clear, I need to use the 1700's built in test tones to set the levels front/sub levels to match, both for Bitstream and PCM before doing the comparison with DVE. So essentially what I am comparing is the test tone dB level of the LEFT relative to the sub to make sure that matches, and then do the same except use the pink noise from DVE and see what if any disparity there is. Do I have this right?

Matching the channels over-complicates the issue somewhat, (even though a properly output LFE 'should' have a certain level relative to the other channels), and I think you can skip that step. Here's why:

When the player is acting as a 'digital transport' -- merely passing bitstream, or just decoding bitstream to PCM then passing it digitally, without any level adjustments, bass management, etc -- it's solely up to the AVR to treat LFE right.
That means (for all multichannel digital sources except perhaps SACD) boosting the LFE input signal by +10dB for output. We hope to measure equal output from the subwoofer for the same LFE in bitstream and PCM format, using e.g. a Radio Shack SPL meter. So testing LFE performance doesn't require matching the subwoofer channel to other channels first. It only requires comparing the subwoofer channel output level when the same LFE test tone is input as bitstream, versus PCM. Simplify matters further by using the HDMI connection only (usually it's the only option that can pass both formats anyway).

Additionally, any Dolby-licensed AVR will boost LFE correctly for a bitstream input; so we don't have to worry that equal output is due to failure for both formats. We can assume equal output means successful LFE handling of both.

If we measure a big difference, then it's time to look for settings in the AVR or player that might be differentially affecting LFE on a per-format basis (again, all the DSP, BM etc should be turned off if possible -- but of course leaving any digital LFE boost option on!). If those can be ruled out, it's safe to assume the AVR has a 'digital LFE issue'.

krabapple

02-07-07, 04:04 PM

Would this also explain why i am seeing around -6 db on the PCM LFE with the 3806?

/speculation on

I have noticed on DVD players that individual channel level adjustments are often +6 as max and -6 as min (both a Pioneer and a Yamaha player showed this). If "max" is actually full scale output, and scaling is in dB, then '0' is -6 dB , and 'min' is -12 dB, compared to full scale. So if default is '0', it might translate to a -6 dB cut for that channel.

krabapple

02-07-07, 04:06 PM

I'll be happy to check it. However I am not at all familiar with PLIIx. Please let me know EXACTLY (and I mean spelled out to a T) what steps I should do to test this, and what to look and/or listen for to know if it is doing PLIIx.

How about confining this thread to LFE/level issues? You could port this sub-topic over to a thread devoted to the 1700.

scottd327

02-07-07, 04:16 PM

Mmm, don't think so. You're not seeing it on the other receivers. And the player you're using doesn't have bass management, does it?

The Panny Blu-ray player does have bass managment that applies to the HDMI out, but I have all speakers in the Panny set to large. I will run the test on the 3806 again tonight.

I have owned and tested every level of AV equpipment over the past 15 years and I have to admit to being stumped by this LFE debate. It makes absolutely no sense why or how these universal dvd players and ilink receivers would apply a boost to dvd-audio and not to sacd. It's not possible, unless it is being manipulated in the DVD player before output. However, the whole point of ilink or Denon Link is that it bypasses the player altogether and all processing is done in the receiver.

The logical conclusion is that no boost is provided in ilink or Denon Link receivers, and, therefore, no boost would be provided in HDMI 1.1 receivers either. However, your testing shows otherwise, so I will keep trying to figure out what I am doing wrong.

krabapple

02-07-07, 04:33 PM

Well, in HDMI 1.1, DSD is certainly being manipulated before output -- it's being converted to PCM. HDMI 1.1. can't pass DSD. Once that conversion's done the signal is much more manipulable by the player....and if anything, I'd think it could 'fool' the downstream AVR into thinking the source was not SACD...and thus treat it like DVD-A/ PCM Dolby Digital.

For ilink/Denonlink, who knows?

Charles R

02-07-07, 05:26 PM

lovingdvd, can you check if the 1700 will apply PLIIx to a 5.1 pcm track?It will.

Charles R

02-07-07, 05:39 PM

BTW is there any LFE -10 / 0 / +10dB etc setting I should check on the RX1700 prior to doing the test? Don't want to find out later that perhaps the 1700 was in a certain mode/setting and that's what affected the results and I should have had it in xyz instead...See this post (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9423042&&#post9423042) to see how I checked it out. With a follow up here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9489014&&#post9489014).

Charles R

02-07-07, 06:03 PM

I'll be happy to check it. However I am not at all familiar with PLIIx. Please let me know EXACTLY (and I mean spelled out to a T) what steps I should do to test this, and what to look and/or listen for to know if it is doing PLIIx.Try this...

1. Press 6 (Sur. Decode) on the remote.
2. Press 7 (Select) on the remote until you get PLIIx Movie.
3. Press 8 (Extd Sur.) until it says ON.

KMO

02-07-07, 06:50 PM

scottd327

02-07-07, 07:07 PM

Your 3806 result is anomalous. All other reports from Denon owners (post-4806) indicate the LFE is at the expected level. I've also had no complaints from Onkyo owners, and sketchy information from Marantz owners suggests they're okay.

I re-ran the test with the 3806 and my measurements were confirmed. All full range channels measured 70 db in both tests. In the DD test, the LFE measured 79 db indicating the 10db boost. In the PCM test, the LFE measured 72 db.

KMO, I must say that I think the problem with so many of the tests conducted here is that they were done with AVIA, not Digital Video Essentials (DVE). When I ran the tests with AVIA the subwoofer levels were identical between PCM and DD.

However, DVE is the only test software I am aware of that has a dedicated LFE test. The Avia test is bass managed test, so the sub will measure equal with the other speakers. I believe DVE was purposely not recorded with the LFE 10db down, so you could measure the boost.

Maybe my analysis is faulty, but how would you explain the 7-10 db difference between the DD and PCM LFE tests on all 3 receivers, the 84tx, 4806 and 3806? Yet, I can detect no actual difference in bass level when A/Bing between DD and PCM during movie watching.

I will try to get a Yamaha or Onkyo to test next. Your thoughts would be appreciated.

lovingdvd

02-07-07, 09:10 PM

As long as all speakers are set to large, I guess that's conclusive.

Good point - I hadn't thought about that. I assume this is because if the speakers are not set to large than the baseline dB setting when I measure the LEFT channel will be "off base" because some of that will be coming through the sub.

So in general would you say that I should set all speakers to large prior to performing my testing and just leave them set to large throughout? Sound like a plan?

lovingdvd

02-07-07, 09:20 PM

Also one other point of confusion I have that I'd like to clear up...

When I turn on Bitstream - am I outputting Bitstream over Toslink, or is this Bitstream over HDMI? I thout it was the later. But recently posts in the 1700 thread lead me to believe that it is indeed the former.

So, am I correct now to assume that I will need BOTH a Toslink cable and HDMI cable connected for this test? So it'll be Bitstream over Toslink for that part of the test, and PCM over HDMI for the other part of the test?

Assuming the above is correct, do I keep both Toslink and HDMI plugged in at the same time? If so, which settings in the A2 "win"? In other words if both cables are plugged in how do I tell the A2 which preference I have for the audio feed? Someone said that the Bistream option is under Audio and the PCM setting is under HDMI. Confused....

KMO

02-08-07, 03:46 AM

However, DVE is the only test software I am aware of that has a dedicated LFE test. The Avia test is bass managed test, so the sub will measure equal with the other speakers.
The Avia does have a low frequency sweep for each channel, including LFE. I've tried to stress that people should attempt to use that. The basic subwoofer test is main-channel only though, you're right.

Maybe my analysis is faulty, but how would you explain the 7-10 db difference between the DD and PCM LFE tests on all 3 receivers, the 84tx, 4806 and 3806? Yet, I can detect no actual difference in bass level when A/Bing between DD and PCM during movie watching.
Well, as I understand it, you're seeing 9-10dB on the 4806 and 84tx, which is what I'd expect, as they lack the 10dB boost.

I can't explain a 6-7dB figure for the 3806.

Hmm, could it be different crossover filtering? Perhaps one mode passes frequencies above the crossover frequency, and the other doesn't? I know that receivers are quite variable as to whether they subject the LFE channel to crossover; perhaps there's some variability here between modes. A sweep test would show that.

What's the bandwidth of the LFE pink noise test, and what's your crossover frequency?

scottd327

02-08-07, 07:16 AM

The Avia does have a low frequency sweep for each channel, including LFE. I've tried to stress that people should attempt to use that. The basic subwoofer test is main-channel only though, you're right.

Yes, but I have always found those frequency sweeps very difficult for finding an accurate reading. Too many factors like sub-performance, bass management, eq and room nodes can affect the readings.

Hmm, could it be different crossover filtering? Perhaps one mode passes frequencies above the crossover frequency, and the other doesn't? I know that receivers are quite variable as to whether they subject the LFE channel to crossover; perhaps there's some variability here between modes. A sweep test would show that.

What's the bandwidth of the LFE pink noise test, and what's your crossover frequency?

True, but I have AVIA and a Velodyne SMS, so my bass levels in the sweep are pretty flat 20-100hz, + or - 2db. The DVE disc, on the other hand, sends the sub only an LFE pink noise signal of 40-80 hz, so bass management is not a factor. It has been an issue with DVE that its subwoofer level is 10 db hot, but that is simply because the LFE only signal was not recorded 10db low, so the boost makes it hot. That has been consistent every time I have used it to test equipment using the DD bitstream from the disc, 8-12 db hot.

There could be a lot of factors causing the 3 db higher level in the 3806 PCM LFE test than on the other 2 receivers, but it is in an acceptable margin of error, particularly for sub signals that are far less accurate on a sound meter. The important point is that the boost clearly is not being applied to PCM LFE via HDMI on any of the 3 receivers.

I think it is necessary to use DVE to test all receivers in this regard. Any test from AVIA is inherently inaccurate for testing this specific issue (LFE boost). My suspicion (or fear) is that all current HDMI 1.1 receivers will show the discrepancy between the DD LFE and the PCM LFE.

scottd327

02-08-07, 07:23 AM

So, am I correct now to assume that I will need BOTH a Toslink cable and HDMI cable connected for this test? So it'll be Bitstream over Toslink for that part of the test, and PCM over HDMI for the other part of the test?

No, you want to test Bitstream and PCM both over HDMI. Do not involve the toslink connection. Balance all the main channels, then play the LFE from DVE via bitstream and then via PCM and check for a difference in level. Make sure the other channels (front, center, surround) are equal between the PCM and bitstream. Good luck with your test.

KMO

02-08-07, 07:52 AM

The important point is that the boost clearly is not being applied to PCM LFE via HDMI on any of the 3 receivers.

I think it is necessary to use DVE to test all receivers in this regard. Any test from AVIA is inherently inaccurate for testing this specific issue (LFE boost). My suspicion (or fear) is that all current HDMI 1.1 receivers will show the discrepancy between the DD LFE and the PCM LFE.
I'm still not convinced. I've not seen anyone else's test results for post-4806 Denon's suggest a discrepancy as large as 6dB. That would surely be noticeable even to a not very precise tester. And all the Onkyo's and Marantz's are fine.

The 3806 is certainly aware of the need to control LFE level, because it has an LFE control, which works for the PCM LFE input. It's just that 0dB and -10dB appear to actually give you -6dB or -16dB. Hmm.

Another interesting test would be to compare bass-managed bass - is it some sort of subwoofer calibration thing going on? If you measure bass on a main channel redirected to the subwoofer, is its level consistent between PCM and bitstream?

Also, don't Denon's have quite a lot of "per-source/per-format" setting memories? Could it be that some of the calibration settings are quietly changing themselves as you switch between PCM and bitstream, rather than applying to both?

scottd327

02-08-07, 09:29 AM

I reset all the per source settings to their defaults. However, I will keep testing to see if I can discover the issue. It may be the Panasonic Blu-ray player for all I know. There are just too many contributing test factors to be sure the issue exists or not. That is why I am skeptical of your "all the onkyos and marantz are fine" statement. Looking at the posts regarding those units, the tests run are not conclusive by any means and I assume you have not run the tests yourself.

However, if the soundtracks sound fine on playback, maybe I am better off not testing and just enjoy. Yet, if i was capable of that, i would not have changed receivers and pre-pros every couple of months over the past 7 years.

KMO

02-08-07, 09:58 AM

No, I haven't run any of the tests myself - I've just compiled information on the balance of the reports I've read here. Often the picture isn't at all clear, I agree.

In the case of Marantz and Onkyo I've seen few reports, and they're often sketchy, but I have not seen anyone at all say that they have got an LFE problem. That's in massive contrast to the Pioneer, where several people have reported the problem.

My reservations about your 3806 result are threefold:

1) It's a sample of one.
2) I don't think the fact it's -6/7dB rather than -10dB is so easily dismissed. If you've level matched everything else, same receiver, same player, and the measurement is repeatable, then something has to be deliberately injecting a +3db or -6dB adjustment somewhere. If we can't determine where that's coming from, we can't really conclude much.
3) I find it hard to believe that a manufacturer aware enough to include an LFE level control would not at least intend its maximum to be a +10dB boost.

I'm somewhat different to you in that I buy very rarely - I'm currently on a Marantz SR7200 and Sony DVP-S725, from circa 1999-2001, and I'm just about to upgrade to get my first SACD/DVD-A player - now that we no longer have to use analogue cables, and you can get universal players, the format's mature enough to buy into.

But when I do want to buy, takes me ages to get exactly what I want. I'm very picky. I've been stuck in decision paralysis for the last few months, waiting to see what Pioneer do, and waiting to see the specs of the Marantz DV7001, and the Denon 3806 successor...

krabapple

02-08-07, 10:14 AM

I reset all the per source settings to their defaults. However, I will keep testing to see if I can discover the issue. It may be the Panasonic Blu-ray player for all I know. There are just too many contributing test factors to be sure the issue exists or not. That is why I am skeptical of your "all the onkyos and marantz are fine" statement. Looking at the posts regarding those units, the tests run are not conclusive by any means and I assume you have not run the tests yourself.

again, keep bass managment off in player and AVR, use a test track that has dedicated LFE bass, and you should be 99% of the way there toward valid comparison of bitstream vs. PCM. In fact if you do that and still measure a big discrepancy between the formats in the NON-suwoofer channels, then there's probably some other parameter that needs to be normalized for the test.

scottd327

02-08-07, 10:35 AM

But when I do want to buy, takes me ages to get exactly what I want. I'm very picky. I've been stuck in decision paralysis for the last few months, waiting to see what Pioneer do, and waiting to see the specs of the Marantz SR7001, and the Denon 3806 successor...

Regardless, you have done an excellent job compiling all this info! Since I have owned the Marantz, Pioneer and Denon solutions for SACD/DVD-Audio, I have to say the Denon Link is the most consistent between formats (or it could just be the synergy between Denon DVD players and its receivers). I have never had to make any adjustments between stereo cd, dvd-audio or sacd and the bass is smooth and consistent. With the others, I had problems between formats with bass levels.

KMO

02-08-07, 11:22 AM

I can imagine the Denon+Denon pair is most likely to work, but I'm hesitant to reward them for using a proprietary interface. I'd prefer to go Pioneer+Pioneer using i.Link. If it turns out to work, after this firmware patch...

I had hoped the Marantz DV7001 would have HDMI 1.2 SACD output to go with the SR7001, but it looks like it might not do, bizarrely.

krabapple

02-08-07, 11:57 AM

Remember too, ilink does not limit you to Pioneer + Pioneer.

KMO

02-08-07, 03:00 PM

In theory, no, but I can't find anyone else offering i.Link players or receivers at anything like the price of Pioneer :( ; it appears I'd be looking at double the price.

And being in the UK, I'm already paying nearly double anyway - the Pioneer AX4ASi (equivalent to the 84TXSi) is going to cost me something like $1700.

scottd327

02-08-07, 03:31 PM

krabapple

02-08-07, 04:35 PM

Yes, and if you go with another ilink brand you still have potential bass issues. I had a Pio 59avi connected via ilink to my Denon 4806, but could never get it to sound right. I eventually swapped in the Denon 3910 via Denon link and it was good to go.

Even when I used a pio 47ai with A Pio Elite receiver via ilink there were still some odd glitches, you could not apply any processing to 2-channel SACD;
when you selected to see the video in DVD-Audio discs, it defaulted to Dolby Digital or DTS sound; when you selected "audio" on the DVD player menu you got full DVD-Audio sound, but the video was blacked out. Weird.

I haven't encountered any of these glitches using a Yamaha player w/ilink + Pioneer 74txvi. I certainly can and do apply DPLII to the SACD stereo output of the player , for example. That is going to depend on the AVR, not the player or interconnect. I've never owned any of the Pioneer ilink players. I have heard before the *Denons* did not play well with ilink players that aren't Denon. That doesn't seem to be a problem with Pioneer ilink AVRs.

The LFE issue seems common in the industry. I didn't say ilink would solve it, nor would I expect it to. Denonlink doesn't solve it either -- it's Denon doing LFE right in their receivers (and players?), that solves it.

lovingdvd

02-08-07, 05:14 PM

Earlier today I had the opportunity to test the Yamaha RX-V1700 at a local dealer with Bitstream Vs. MPCM over HDMI to check for the LFE issue.

From my testing and LIMITED knowledge of the subject, I did not see any issue with the LFE as the receiver appeared to pass the basic tests I executed. Again I want to caution anyone reading this that this subject is new to me, as is using HDMI for audio and PCM vs Bitstream etc. So it is possible I did not execute the tests correct so don't take this as gospel...

OK, here's how I went about testing and what I found:

1) set all speakers to Large in the V1700, set the BASS OUT to SWFR, and put it in STRAIGHT mode.

2) used the internal test tones to balance all 5.1 channels to 75dB (sound meter dial set to 70, reading of +5 on the meter).

3) In the Toshiba HD-A2 HD DVD player, set its Digital Output SPDIF to Bitstream, set the HDMI output to Auto.

4) The receiver showed HDMI with *no* PCM indicator light as expected.

5) I played Title 8 chapter 11 of DVE which is the LFE only channel with pink noise. This measured about 88dB. Then switched to pink noise from DVE for the center channel - that measured 80dB.

6) switched the HD-A2 to Digital Output SPDIF PCM, HDMI to PCM.

7) receiver now had PCM indicator light with 5.1 speaker lights light as expected (this was a 5.1 set up only) and said STRAIGHT MPCM on its display.

8) Played the LFE again. This time it measured about 90dB. Then checked the center channel, which measured 80dB.

So the overall level (as judged from the Center speaker pink noise test) did not seem to matter whether it was Bitstream or PCM. And the LFE output was actually about 2dB higher under PCM.

Also as a listening test I put in King Kong on HD DVD while sending PCM over HDMI. I stood right by the subwoofer and played chapter 33 which has lots of heavy grunting from Kong. I put the meter right by the sub speaker. During some heaving grunts the meter was reading about 90dB, and there was one heavy thud where it pinned the needle for a few seconds, which was likely at least about 100dB.

Questions:
1) Based on the above, does it then sound like the RX-V1700 does not have the LFE issue?

2) Does it matter that the Bistream and PCM signal used for this test was coming from a standard def DVD and not a HD DVD using TrueHD or DD+?

3) After listening to Kong with PCM I tried switching back and to Bitstream so I could hear how it sounded that way. I put the SPDIF back to Bitstream and the HDMI back to Auto, yet the PCM light was now still showing in the receiver, whereas before it was not. No matter what I tried I couldn't get the PCM light off. So I was unable to compare what the LFE output sounded like on Kong in PCM vs. Bitstream. As I recall, however, the PCM vs. Bitstream light was working as expected when using the standard def DVE disk for testing.

4) I looked at the signal info during King Kong when set to PCM and it said it was 48khz. Shouldn't that have been 96khz? Or is that only for TrueHD sound tracks?

Again I want to caution everyone that this was a rather quick experiment and I'm a newb with all this, so you should still look for more confirmation and not base a purchase decision on it. From what I observed it looked good to me to the point where I will now likely be purchasing this receiver.

Regarding the PLIIx tests some folks requested, I didn't have your instructions with me so I tried figuring this out best I could. I hit the button the remote that allows you to select a mode and it came me choices like Neo6 etc - I did not see any choice specifically labeled as PLIIx but there was one that said PLII. I choose that and the "Movie" version of it. I did not see PLIIx on the display at this point just PLII. I wouldn't read into this too much though as I recall someone earlier in this thread posted that it will do PLIIx and I'm not sure I set this up as needed for that.

Please let me know what you guys think about these results and whether we can draw any conclusions from them (and if so, what conclusions)!

KMO

02-08-07, 05:29 PM

1) Based on the above, does it then sound like the RX-V1700 does not have the LFE issue?
It sounds like it's working fine. Don't see any flaw in your methodology. The 2dB extra LFE is probably within the measurement error range.
2) Does it matter that the Bistream and PCM signal used for this test was coming from a standard def DVD and not a HD DVD using TrueHD or DD+?

Shouldn't do. The receiver probably can't tell, and it shouldn't care.

3) After listening to Kong with PCM I tried switching back and to Bitstream so I could hear how it sounded that way. I put the SPDIF back to Bitstream and the HDMI back to Auto, yet the PCM light was now still showing in the receiver, whereas before it was not. No matter what I tried I couldn't get the PCM light off.
That sounds like expected behaviour. "Auto" for HDMI usually means output DD/DTS bitstream for DD/DTS tracks, and M-PCM for PCM/DD+/DTS-HD/TrueHD tracks.
4) I looked at the signal info during King Kong when set to PCM and it said it was 48khz. Shouldn't that have been 96khz? Or is that only for TrueHD sound tracks?

No. TrueHD does support 96kHz - most DVD-Audio discs using it are 96kHz. But unlike the world of hi-res music, most film soundtracks are recorded+mixed at 48kHz. Most PCM/TrueHD films will be 48kHz.
I did not see PLIIx on the display at this point just PLII.
PLIIx is only available if 7 speakers are configured.

Thanks for the research!

scottd327

02-08-07, 09:05 PM

Great test LovingDVD! That does seem to confirm that the Yamaha does not have the PCM LFE issue and allays my fear that all the HDMI 1.1 receivers might suffer from the problem.

lovingdvd

02-09-07, 12:52 AM

Great test LovingDVD! That does seem to confirm that the Yamaha does not have the PCM LFE issue and allays my fear that all the HDMI 1.1 receivers might suffer from the problem.

It seems there are a good number of 1700/2700 owners in these threads so I'm a bit surprised there was not more definitive information available. I need to go through the entire 1700/2700 thread to see what conflicting reports there were and why there were doubts about this in the first place.

Because others apparently drew different conclusions or could not definitively conclude this it makes me wonder if my testing was sufficient. So I'm still not 100% sure of the results, but based on what I experienced I feel confident enough to order the 1700 knowing I can return it if something unexpected comes up. Whereas before this test I was too hesitant as I didn't want to go through the process of ordering it with doubts about the LFE even if it was returnable...

KMO

02-09-07, 04:18 AM

I never saw many reports on the 1700/2700. I had one report it was wrong, then another report that it was okay. Now your report that it's okay, with detailed testing info.

I think it's fine; my belief is that the problem is significant enough, when present, for an uninformed listener to spot that something's wrong, so you tend to hear a fair few "bad" reports. That certainly seemed to be the case for the Pioneer 84. If you're getting no or few bad reports, a receiver is probably okay.

Charles R

02-09-07, 06:53 PM

It seems there are a good number of 1700/2700 owners in these threads so I'm a bit surprised there was not more definitive information available. I need to go through the entire 1700/2700 thread to see what conflicting reports there were and why there were doubts about this in the first place.I made it all the way through the thread once and if I remember correctly there was one owner who stated he had "low bass" and returned it. Although later he purchased another unit and it worked fine. Personally I think it's an urban legend... :)

pchin2

02-09-07, 08:24 PM

Thanks lovingdvd for the effort & test result. Now I'm really tempted to buy this unit.

Last night I aslo got hold a copy of the "WHAT HI*FI? Awards 2006 edition" UK edition & indeed pleased to read the review on this Yamaha RX-V1700 for receiving the BEST surround receiver in the "less than 1,000 UK pound" with a complete 5-star verdict! :)

"The new class leader is a thunderously good all-rounder, you can buy it with confidence"

krabapple

02-10-07, 12:28 AM

lovingdvd

02-10-07, 01:21 AM

just for the 'database':

This post (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9733886&&#post9733886) on the Pioneer 82tsx thread indicates Pioneer has now incorporated the LFE fix into production of that model....firmware will show v 1.005

Yea the part that makes it tough is not knowing in advance whether you are getting a new one or old one. Even if one waits a few months there's still a chance they could get an older one from inventory I suppose.

krabapple

02-10-07, 02:52 PM

I've done some more extensive testing of LFE issue and channel
trim/boost functions on the Pioneer 74txvi /Oppo970HD combo
(still haven't got to the Yamaha S200 ilink test yet, sorry!). Results
are curious and potentially exciting

Disc: Chesky 'Ultimate Surround' test disc, has 5.1 DD and DVD-A
test signals. Used Track 5,
'channel level adjustment' and measured left front, right front, and
subwoofer levels.

AVR (Pioneer 74txvi, late 2005 mfr):
MCACC off, all speakers large, subs on, delays equal, pure direct
mode, AVR master level @ 0 dB trim/boost (pure direct makes
most of these setting redundant,
but I set them manually anyway)

Player (Oppo970HD, mfr 2006)
1080i, master level at full, speakers LARGE, sub ON, delays equal,
channel trim/boost @ 0 dB.
Connected to AVR by HDMI only, digital output 'Raw' (I don't think
this affects HDMI output since that
has its own audio setting, but I haven't checked this)

'LPCM' vs 'auto' vs 'off' refers to the Oppo 'HDMI Audio' setting
'direct' vs 'auto surround' refers to the Pioneer mode settings (used
pure direct
as default)

THere was no attempt to balance channels. All readings (in dB) taken
from in front of the subwoofer with a rat shack analog SPL meter, C-weighted.

left sub right readout on AVR
dd (LPCM) 68.5 74-76 75 PCM direct same in 'direct' &' auto surround'
dd (auto) 72 94-96 78.5 Dolby Digital same in 'direct' & 'auto surround'

dvda (auto) 72 84-86 79 PCM direct
dvda (LPCM) 71.5 84-86 79 PCM direct

Oppo channel trim/boost @ +10 dB (L, SW & R ch only)
dd(LPCM) 78.5 84-86 87 PCM direct
dd(auto) 72 94-96 80 Dolby Digital

dvda(auto) 82 94-96 89.5 PCM direct
dvda(LPCM) 82 94-96 90 PCM direct
dvda(off) none none none PCM direct

Don't have time to discuss right now, but you are free to !

krabapple

02-10-07, 08:05 PM

ok, some observations

1) 'auto' vs 'LPCM' doesn't matter when source is DVD-A, as expected (it can only be output as LPCM, so auto defaults to LPCM, fo such sources).

2) it appears then, that the 'proper' subwoofer output for this particular session with this test signal, should have been in the neighborhood of 95 dB, based on the DD 'auto' output levels., which presumably represent a correct processing of all channels by the AVR. The DVD-A LFE is 10 dB low compared to that (~85 dB), a sign of the 'LFE issue' at work.

3) what's curious is the behavior of Dolby Digital output as PCM. Left and right channel outputs are consistently ~4 dB lower than bitstream or DVD-A (I did this measurement multiple times). LFE is [B]20 dB lower (~ 75dB) than bitstream LFE, and ten lower than DVD-A LFE. I'm stumped by this. Fortunately I never listen to DD as LPCM, so I'd never heard this before.

4) Oppo channel level (which allows up to 10 dB trim or boost -- default is 0) doesn't affect bitstream -- this is as expected. It does affect LPCM output, regardless of whether source is Dolby Digital or DVD-A. I would expect DSD-->PCM to be affected too. The fact that there is +10dB of digital 'headroom' available to the user via channel boost means that the 'default' PCM output is already 10 dB below full scale ON ALL CHANNELS.

5) Given (4), it seems to me that it would be possible to 'fix' the LFE issue for DVD-A by adjusting channel levels in the Oppo. If I understand correctly, raising the LFE channel +10 in the Oppo, with no bass managment in the player, would feed the AVR's HDMI input a properly balanced set of PCM channels, which could then be bass managed correctly in the AVR, by the formula

SW = LFE + Lower10dB(Redirected bass)

or equivalently

SW = Raise10dB(LFE) + Redirected bass

Yes or no? Would I also need to further trim the other channels in the Oppo, to allow proper headroom for bass managment in the AVR?

KMO

02-11-07, 04:37 AM

If it offers level trims, then you could certainly work around a receiver without the boost - in effect every channel other than LFE would be attenuated 10dB, and the receiver should then function okay.

I can't immediately explain why the DD and PCM bitstreams differ by 20db. My first thought was that it could have been the fact that the LFE is extra low to make room for bass management, as has been suggested for Oppo in the past.

But then why isn't the DVD-A like that? It could be that the LFE level is different between the DVD-A and DD tracks on the disc; perhaps the DVD-A track hasn't been calibrated for a 10dB boost, unlike the D? Wouldn't put it past Chesky to make an error like that - they don't use the LFE track anyway on their recordings. I know the DD tracks on that disc has its surrounds something like 90 degrees out of phase from the front, making the phase tests on those tracks useless.

krabapple

02-11-07, 11:01 AM

But apart from the LFE difference, I was also struck by the consistent ~4dB difference in the left/right channels between DD bitstream and PCM. That I cannot explain either.

It's certainly possible that the Chesky disc is unusually calibrated. The 'bass management test' on that disc has never worked right for me, for example. I'll have to check DD bitstream vs DD PCM with other discs- I have Avia and and Sound & VIsion's tes discs, one of which I hope has a dedicated LFE test tone.

KMO

02-11-07, 12:41 PM

A 4dB overall difference is usually down to 1 bit of kit performing dialogue normalisation, and the other not. The default dialnorm parameter in the Dolby Digital encoder leads the decoder to lower the master volume by 4dB. If one decoder does this and the other doesn't, you'll see a difference.

Alternatively, it may be that the receiver boosts DD by 4dB to try and make it match other sources without dialnorm - countering the "DD is quieter than DTS" complaint. And if the Oppo did perform dialnorm as it decoded, you'd end up with the PCM case 4dB quieter.

If it was the latter, it would be a classic case of someone introducing a hack to work around a silly customer complaint, which then causes worse problems later.

krabapple

02-11-07, 11:56 PM

Thanks for the info , I knew dialnorm would have an effect but wasn't sure of the magnitude. Lowering the master volume would, I think,also affect LFE would it not?

BTW, I reran the DD bitstream vs PCM LFE test with the S&V Home Theater Setup DVD (which has DD and DTS test tracks), subwoofer level track, and got the same results (20 dB diff with the Oppo). So that wasn't a Chesky disc anomaly. Same for DTS too. I didn't test the nonsub track levels, though, so i don't know if there's dialnorm matching going on there.

lovingdvd

02-12-07, 12:05 AM

Speaking of dialnorm and so forth - is there a good intro article on what that and related auto adjustments are being done by the receiver. Often as I switch inputs I see my Yamaha RX-V1400 reporting things on the display briefly like "Dialnorm +4db" and so forth, and I've often wondered what that was all about. Thanks.

KMO

02-12-07, 04:18 AM

See "dialnorm" on Wikipedia, then follow the external link to the Dolby Metadata Guide.

Basically, there's a piece of metadata in the DD stream which tells the decoder how loud the dialogue is. The decoder is expected to adjust the master volume using this metadata to make the dialogue the same level on all sources.

One thing that receivers vary on is what they treat as the "neutral" dialnorm value - what value of the dialnorm parameter corresponds to no adjustment; this matters when matching the level of other formats.

Dolby's description suggests that the dialnorm setting should only lead to the master volume being reduced. But because the default encoder dialnorm setting would then lead to a -4dB reduction, DD is sometimes described as being quieter than other sources. So some receivers apply an additional +4dB boost to DD.

And yes, this affects the LFE too - so if you're calculating an LFE difference, you need to discount any difference in the L&R channels, as that corresponds to a master volume change.

BBS G35

02-14-07, 01:47 AM

Receivers boosting PCM LFE input by 10dB

* Onkyo TX-NR1000, TX-NR5000E: can set +10dB, 0dB, -10dB, off; separate settings for PCM, DSD, DD, DTS and AAC
* Onkyo TX-SR804E: can set +10dB, 0dB, -10dB, off; unified setting for PCM, DD and DTS
* Denon AVR-2307CI, AVR-2807, AVR-3806, AVR-4306, AVR-4806CI(AVC-A11XVA): can set +10dB or 0dB; per-surround mode setting(?) - should allow separate settings for PCM, DSD, DD and DTS
* Panasonic SA-XR700: no option, but appears to get it right
* Yamaha RX-V1700/RX-V2700: No option. Latest tests suggest it is okay.
* Denon AVR-4806(AVC-A11XV): LFE control only affects DD and DTS. One owner reports that PCM/DSD LFE gain is undocumentedly linked to analogue SW Level setting; another owner reports that this doesn't work for him

Receivers not boosting PCM LFE input by 10dB

* Pioneer VSX-74TXVi/VSX-84TXSi/VSX-82TXSi(VSX-AX4AVi/VSX-AX4ASi/VSX-AX2ASi): apparently firmware fix is now available, but no firm reports yet

Im confused...Why are there only 3 Onkyo receivers posted?? Where does the 604/674 belong? I mean, its either boosing PCM LFE or its not right? Which one is it?

krabapple

02-14-07, 12:58 PM

I imagine reports are posted as they become available. These reports are being generated by users who take the time to test their rigs.

krabapple

02-14-07, 01:06 PM

And yes, this affects the LFE too - so if you're calculating an LFE difference, you need to discount any difference in the L&R channels, as that corresponds to a master volume change.

I'm still trying to get my head around how the Oppo can offer 10 dB of PCM boost on each channel, yet the output levels of the the L/C/R/SL/SR channels of DVD-A (PCM) vs Dolby Digital (bitstream) are the same at *default* settings, while the LFE channel is 10 dB different. I would have expected something like 10 dB difference for the non-LFE channels too as default (10 dB lower than their bitstream counterparts), to allow enough digital headroom for optional 10 dB boost.

Gadget_101

02-17-07, 01:31 PM

Funny, Jacksonian :) There are two workarounds - 1) a player that can lower all the other HDMI channel levels by 10dB; and then turn the master volume up 10dB in the reciever. 2) in a system with all channels set to Large in the receiver, turn the subwoofer trim up 10dB. Any other "fix" will be a compromise that boosts redirected bass too much.

The 3806 looks good to me. It's pretty much my top candidate at the moment, but I'm put off by its lack of HDMI 1.2; I want SACD digital interconnect in the DSD domain, but I don't want to have to use a proprietary interface like Denon Link. But on the other hand, a separate audio link appeals to me more than the compatibility grief of HDMI. Hence the i.Link of the Pioneer seemed attractive.

If that's not an issue to you, I can't see anything else to fault it, in terms of technical facilities. Sound quality etc, I can't say anything about. I agree 2xHDMI is mingy. My other main candidate is the Marantz SR7001 (4xHDMI 1.2). But I haven't heard anything from anyone about HDMI PCM LFE through it - and I also need to know what it does for HDMI DSD LFE. The Denon has a clear documented PCM/DSD LFE setting in the manual; the Marantz doesn't mention it.

I'm pretty certain the other Denons in the 06 range will work much the same as the 3806, but I haven't gone through their manuals. Feel free to have a go yourself...

If do 2) what are the negatives? - will my sub get only LFE? Will I be missing
some low end - because the sub is not getting any redirected bass? -
Or is it getting some redirected bass - but at a lower crossover?

I have a pioneer 84 waiting to be delivered with other stuff. The sales person
had no idea of this problem - but mentioned setting the speakers for large -
I don't want to dance around the problem, especially if there are negative
consequences. I'm pairing the receiver with focal's profile line.

LR 928's:
Frequency response (+/- 3dB) 38Hz to 30.5kHz
Low frequency point (-6dB) 32hz

center: cc908 Frequency response (+/- 3dB) 65Hz - 30.5kHz

Surround SR908: Frequency response (+/- 3dB) 75Hz to 30.5kHz

Sub SW908:
Frequency Response (+/- 3dB) 27 - 150 Hz
Low frequency point (-6dB) 23 Hz

Even if pioneer fixes the problem with a firmware update. I'm still
confused on whether I should set the receiver for small or large speakers?

I read in the forum the small is preferred - in that it frees up the load on the
amplifier and speakers. But, I assume - it all depends on what kind of speakers
and power amplifier I'm using. I may in the future use the pioneer 84 as a
pre-amp HDMI switcher and get a power amp. If I do so, does that change
whether I set the speakers to small or large?

lovingdvd

02-17-07, 04:39 PM

Has anyone tested for the LFE issue on the latest Yamaha HTR series, such as the HTR-6090? This receiver is very similar to the RX-V1700 which seems ok, so I'm assuming the 6090 will be ok too. Thoughts?

krabapple

02-19-07, 01:54 PM

I've now tested LFE transmission via ilink, for DVD-V vs DVD-A, using the Yamaha S2500 as a player.

Disc: Chesky 'Ultimate Surround' test disc, has 5.1 DD and DVD-A
test signals. Used Track 5,
'channel level adjustment'

AVR (Pioneer 74txvi, late 2005 mfr):
MCACC off, all speakers large, subs on, delays equal, pure direct and
direct modes*, AVR master level @ 0 dB trim/boost (direct modes make
most of these setting redundant, but I set them manually anyway)

Player (Yamaha S2500)
speakers LARGE, sub ON, delays equal,
channel trim/boost @ 0 dB except as noted.
Connected to AVR by ilink, digital output 'All' (versus 'PCM'),
analog output format "multichannel' (In have found int the past
that this affects digital outs too and thus must be set to mc to avoid
downmixing...don't ask why)

THere was no attempt to balance channels. All readings (in dB) taken
from in front of the subwoofer with a rat shack analog SPL meter, C-weighted, slow.

The player has +/- 6 levels of boost/trim available per channel via setup menu.
SW@0 vs @6 refers to boosting the player +6 vs default.

DD DVD-A
SW@0 SW@+6 SW@0 SW@+6
L 70 70 70 64
C 73 73 73 68
R 74 74 74 70
LS 68 68 68 62
RS 68 68 68 63
SW 90 90 80 80

*in the Pioneer AVR's Pure Direct mode, channel assigments for DVD-A
(but not Dolby Digital) are screwed up as follows :

center and left surround are swapped
subwoofer and right surround are swapped

So for DVD-A I used 'Direct' mode rather than 'Pure Direct'. Channel
assignments were thus corrected. DVD-A readout n the AVR reads
'DVD-A 96kHz'

Take home messages:

- the LFE bug is still evident on the DVD-A tracks via ilink
- the Yamaha 'boosted' LFE by actually trimming the other channels ~6 dB.
- there's something funny about 'pure direct' and hi-rez. Here's something interesting I found on hydrogenaudio.

DVD-Audio's layout is LF, RF, LS, RS, C, LFE, and any PC media player uses LF, RF, C, LFE, LS, RS. So to correctly play back DVD-Audio in Foobar2000, you will need to use a WAV editor such as Audition to swap LS and C, and RS and LFE.

So either AVR or Yamaha or both may behave like PC media players...

KMO

02-19-07, 05:24 PM

Thanks, krabapple. I think I recall hearing reports about the 74 being afflicted with incorrect channel assignments. Poor old Pioneer - a bit of a comedy of errors. :)

The "allow boost by dropping level" trick may be fairly common. I was reading a manual the other day, Arcam perhaps, which had some sort of toggle switch for HDMI output between fixed and variable levels, and the manual advised that enabling the variable level option would lower the output level by 6dB.

krabapple

02-19-07, 06:21 PM

it might have been me who previously mentioned the pure direct bug -- I'm pretty sure I mentioned it in one of these threads some months ago ( seem to recall one about determining the true sampling rates of DVD-As...). But it's one of those things that has no impact on me, as I never use 'Pure Direct' mode. In 'Auto Surround' (what I tend to use) or 'Direct' modes, the channel assignments are correct.

As for tricky level boosts, it makes balancing the PCM LFE in the Yamaha...interesting. ;> I suppose further lowering the other channels by 4 would yield the 'right' LFE output (10 dB above the others).

Donnacha

02-23-07, 04:27 AM

Thank You KMO - much clearer for me now. New receiver for me then!!!

lovingdvd

02-23-07, 09:52 AM

As you may recall I did some tests a week or so ago with a Yamaha RX-V1700 and concluded that it did not seem to have the LFE issue. I now have a Yamaha HTR-6090 which I'll be testing over the next couple of days for the LFE issue. Since the 6090 is very similar to the 1700 I'm hopeful it'll test out ok. Will post my results back here shortly.

Inferno333

02-24-07, 10:21 AM

Has the Outlaw receiver been tested?

Woof Woof

02-28-07, 07:39 AM

I couldn't get the XA2 to output in Bitstream mode over HDMI.

Only available options for HDMI output were Auto, PCM or Downmixed (stereo) PCM.

So I switched to my PS3 also hooked up with HDMI.

As usual, I used Superman Returns since that was the one I was most familiar with.

My Setup is as follows:
XA2 -> HDMI DVD input of RXV2700
PS3 -> HDMI DTV input of RXV2700

RXV2700 HDMI output to Mitsubishi HC5000

Front and Rear Satelites - B&W 601S2s
Center Speaker - B&W CDM CSE
Side Speakers - Atlantic Technology dipoles (forgot the model no)
Subwoofer - PB12ISD/V

Calibrated with YPAO earlier.

In the PS3 Dashboard, Settings, BR/DVD Settings/Audio HDMI was set to
a. Bitstream, and then
b. PCM

There is no need to change the Audio Track since there is only Dolby Digital 5.1

With a, I see from the Yamaha 2700 display that it was receiving a Dolby Digital Display (Sur Decode and Ext Surround: Dolby ProLogic IIx: Movie applied)

Selected Chapter 11 of the movie

Soundtrack/score is playing as Superman leaves the sports bar and runs to change.

Scene switches to the plane that Lois is in... as the plane/shuttle picks up speed, and the sonic boom occurs, the loud pop is very obvious

Later, when the ignition boosters are ignited, the bass is also very strong.

With b, Yamaha 2700 displays MPCM (Sur Decode and Ext Surround: Dolby ProLogic IIx: Movie applied like before)

Chapeter 11 again

When sonic boom occurs, the pop isn't as obvious.

And ignition boosters lacked the punch.

I am not saying I can't hear the subwoofer. It is still in action, and I can feel the drivers kicking in. But it does seem more muted than before. Sounds like the 10dB LFE problem to me.

I don't think lovingdvd and I are the ONLY two guys with RXV2700s and HDMI based players to test this out.. come on, guys. Let's have some other opinions here.

cokecan

03-03-07, 06:39 PM

KMO, can you fix the Pioneer 82/84 on the main page of this thread please?

The LFE problem has been corrected in the latest firmware and verified by a few people at this point.

The +10db boost is selectable by holding down the Video Select and Power Button with the unit in standby. Prior to the firmware upgrade, this boost only applied to the analog .1 input and now applies to HDMI and i.Link(84 only).

-Brian

KMO

03-04-07, 05:15 AM

Okay. But I note that quite a few people seem to have been saying it still doesn't seem to be fixed for them. Do we know why this is?

And new units aren't necessarily good, as I understand it.

cokecan

03-04-07, 12:21 PM

Mainly due to service centers not doing the complete suite of upgrades.. Not sure if you've peaked over at the threads, but the complete update effects four out of the six version numbers (on the 82). On the 84 there are seven firmware numbers, the seventh being the i.link host I believe.

One guy (derekjsmith) posted his numbers of his "updated" 82 and the service center only did one of the updates which did not fix the problem. Pioneer hasn't given out correct information about which of the updates are required to fix the problem -- all of them could be.

Also, I haven't seen anyone who actually had the updates done complain that it didn't work. Well I have, but they didn't do the lfe boost or they didn't get all the upgrades as mentioned above. Or they have a 72. The whole thing is kind of mess, no one has been super scientific with their findings which makes it hard to decide what is accurate data and what is not. It's getting better though.

As far as getting a new unit that has the level of updates required -- this sounds like a crap shoot. My unit was built in October 06 and before the firmware update it supposedly had the neccesarry level of firmware to deal with LFE correctly. I didn't try before I upgraded. A couple of people have purchased recently with luck. The best advice I've heard is be prepared to deal with the firmware upgrade process and educate yourself on what is required to do so. Find the closest service center and be prepared to ship the unit if they are not with in driving distance.

My gut feeling however is that most new units (if you can verify the build date) will work out of the box. Buy from a B&M shop, you can always just take it back if you don't get one that is fixed.

Maybe it is a little premature to update the list due to lack of info, it's up to you. I'll be happy to gather any info you need.

-Brian

cokecan

03-04-07, 12:37 PM

Karl Englebright

03-05-07, 03:44 PM

fanerman

03-06-07, 09:01 PM

Im confused...Why are there only 3 Onkyo receivers posted?? Where does the 604/674 belong? I mean, its either boosing PCM LFE or its not right? Which one is it?

I'd like to know how the 604 performs also. If someone has a 604, could they please test the LFE functionality? Thanks.

Steve S

03-09-07, 02:17 PM

I wouldn't say that. I have the H1.004 and I don't have the LFE problem. I will check tonight on the other firmware numbers to see whether that's the variable that's missing.

How do you check firmware numbers? Please pardon a noob to this receiver.

krabapple

03-09-07, 02:53 PM

So the H1.004 is bad info as far as being the only update required.. That was the only update derekjsmith had done to his and it apparently did not fix the problem.

For now I'd almost say the "latest batch of firmware upgrades" or something that imlpies multiple updates. Whatever you think is best until we have the exact numbers for you..

Thanks!
-Brian

On the Pioneer 82/84 thread, there's a couple posts indicating that for the LFE bug, the required firmware updates for the 84 are

D1.003
F1.004
s1.001
and probably the H.00X has to be at least H.004

Note that these may not apply to other Pioneer elite models.

D perhaps stands for DSP, H for HDMI, , not sure what F and s stand for.

I've been trying to compile the Pioneer info from that thread, but people are not always clear on what model they're discussing, and how they've determined whether or not an update has 'worked'.

Bob Pariseau

03-11-07, 11:26 AM

From owner testing reported in the "Anthem D2/AVM50 Tweaking Guide" thread in the Amps/Receivers/Processors forum here:

================================================

The Anthem Statement D2 and Anthem AVM-50 pre/pros do *NOT* have the "10dB low LFE" problem with version V1.11 (or later) firmware installed. The V1.11 version of the firmware first became available for download from the Anthem web site on November 24, 2006. It is also the version that is factory installed in new product as of today (March 11, 2007).

PLEASE NOTE: Prior versions of the Anthem firmware for these two products, i.e., versions V1.10 or older, *DO* have this problem.

The currently installed firmware version can be viewed by pressing the Select key, once, on the Anthem remote.

---------------------------------------------------

The Anthem V1.11 or later firmware for these two products, by default, boosts incoming LFE by 10dB as it should -- independent of bass steered to the subwoofer from the main speakers -- as for example when received as 5.1 channel, high bandwidth, PCM over HDMI from HD-DVD or Blu-Ray players or from SACD or DVD-Audio players that output over HDMI. For the very few cases where the user might need to remove or reduce this boost, there is a temporary control available under the Setup/Sub/LFE button on the Anthem remote (two presses of that button, and then the up or down arrows to adjust) which can be used to reduce LFE (from its boosted level) up to -10dB in steps of 0.5dB.

================================================

Also from those experiments: Avia testing with the Oppo 970HD using bitstream and PCM both over HDMI indicates that the latest beta firmware for the Oppo 970HD no longer reduces HDMI PCM LFE by 15dB when bass steering in the Oppo is turned off. The note to that effect at the bottom of the first post may now be out of date.
--Bob

cokecan

03-11-07, 01:52 PM

I wouldn't say that. I have the H1.004 and I don't have the LFE problem. I will check tonight on the other firmware numbers to see whether that's the variable that's missing.

I didn't mean to say that is was bad to have, or that H1.004 isn't required for the LFE boost to function. :)

It just seemed like people were stating that ONLY H1.004 was needed (we're speaking 82/84 here), which seems to be incorrect.

If you take your unit in, you pretty much should return with all the number listed a couple posts up from this and ideally H1.005 which is the newest.

Cheers,
Brian

KMO

03-11-07, 06:31 PM

Thanks for the Anthem info, Bob. (Not that I've ever heard of Anthem except on this forum :) ). Added it to the list.

Stereodude

03-17-07, 12:03 PM

There is a fix for the Pioneer Elite VSX-74TXVi now.

jacksonian

03-17-07, 06:08 PM

KMO,
We now have 3 members reporting that the January build dates of the Pioneer 84TX have the updated firmware and no LFE bug.

tyoung88

03-19-07, 03:37 AM

I recently started enjoying PCM 5.1 via my Sony Playstation 3 and BluRay discs that have uncompressed audio featured. My JVC RX-D401S definitely processes the 5.1 signal coming from the PS3 including LFE but I'm not certain on whether or not it processes the +10db discussed in this thread.

Switching between DD5.1 and PCM5.1 on Casino Royale I wasn't able to distinguish a big difference in the LFE signal output but was wondering if anyone had a more concrete answer as I didn't see any of the JVC receivers listed in this thread.

ahartig

03-19-07, 12:46 PM

I have an NAD T754. does anybody know if i need to make these adjustments using 5.1 analog in?

Dalat

03-19-07, 01:06 PM

I'd also like to know about how to adjust for better LFE with analog connections. I was happy with the sound (DD 7.1 on SD DVD). After I got my XA2 and watched Batman Begins/The Last Samurai, the video is way better, and DD TrueHD sound is also better EXCEPT for the sound coming out of my subwoofer. Everything else improved going from SD to HD DVD, that just made the low LFE problem that much more pronounced. Should I get one of those calibration discs to help with sound adjustments? I only used the test tone on the receiver along with an SPL meter previously.

Thanks,

KMO

03-19-07, 02:30 PM

Dalat

03-19-07, 02:53 PM

Does your player have test tones? It should do. The main thing is to make sure speakers are set to small as appropriate on the player, and then on the receiver, make sure the subwoofer input is boosted by 15dB or 10dB. It may have a separate setting for this. That's your starting point, then fine-tune.

In theory though, if all your speakers are level calibrated for digital, then the same level settings for multichannel analogue should be fine, as long as the extra +15dB or +10dB for subwoofer is keyed in.

Yes, the DVD player has test tones, as does the receiver.
When using the player's test tone, should I leave all the speakers at 0 db? and the sub to +15? BTW, all my speakers are "small". My confusion is this: what's the relationship between using the player's test tone to calibrate your speakers and using the receiver's test tone to do the same thing? Why am I doing it twice? Should I just use one or the other?

Thanks,

lovingdvd

03-19-07, 03:57 PM

I had an interesting experience yesterday while watching U-571 on my Toshiba XA2 HD DVD player. I have only an HDMI connection between the XA2 and my Yamaha HTR-6090. No toslink or coax etc.

I had the movie set for DD+. With the SPDIF Output set to Bitstream, the bass was a bit fuller than with it set to PCM. Of course the bizarre thing is that no SPDIF connection is even there. But for some reason it changes what the player outputs on HDMI! The receiver confirms this to - it shows 96khz sample rate over HDMI with SPDIF set to Bitstream and 48khz set to PCM. Strange.... Any thoughts on this?

Dalat

03-19-07, 04:24 PM

I had the movie set for DD+.

Sorry I can't answer your original question, since I don't have an HDMI receiver. But why did you set the movie soundtrack to DD+ ? Does it not have DD True HD?

Thanks,

lovingdvd

03-19-07, 05:03 PM

Sorry I can't answer your original question, since I don't have an HDMI receiver. But why did you set the movie soundtrack to DD+ ? Does it not have DD True HD?

Thanks,

Nope this particular movie only offers DD+ and DTS.

KMO

03-19-07, 05:38 PM

lovingdvd

03-20-07, 12:52 AM

This is a well known Toshiba bug. If I recall correctly, when SPDIF is set to 96kHz, 48kHz sources even over HDMI get upsampled to 96kHz, and the A2 removes bass and dynamic range in the process. This is broken on so many levels...

But I am finding this to be the case in reverse. When I use Bitstream - which is the one that generates the 96khz sample rate, then the bass is fuller. From your post it sounds like you are saying you'd expect that to be the case with SPDIF set to PCM (which is the one that outputs 48khz). :confused:

Ktulu_1

03-20-07, 08:19 AM

KMO is right. When you set the SPDIF to "PCM" the HDMI PCM output gets upsampled to 96khz. For some reason this wrecks the sound output. It's a known bug. See the gen. 2 player owners thread for information ad nauseam, or you could just set your player to "Bitstream" on SPDIF and "Auto" on HDMI.

EDIT: I went back and read your posts. I missed what you were saying the first time. Your findings are odd. My Pioneer displays "PCM" indicating 48khz when set as above. It will display 96khz when I set the SPDIF output to "PCM".

krabapple

03-20-07, 12:16 PM

KMO, reports are coming in (on Pioneer threads) that the latest firmware updates for the Pioneer 74txvi AVR do indeed fix its LFE issue. So you can add that to the list. Pioneer has also added a firmware update notice to its website -

http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/pna/v3/pg/top/cat/article/0,,2076_310069579_424940998,00.html

paulnpcom

03-20-07, 12:17 PM

KMO, reports are coming in (on Pioneer threads) that the firmware update for the Pioneer 74txvi AVR does indeed fix its LFE issue. So you can add that to the list.

and the 82/84 as well.

paul

krabapple

03-20-07, 12:20 PM

and the 82/84 as well.

paul

he's already included those.

ahartig

03-20-07, 01:55 PM

you can add the nadt754 to the list, plenty of bass without the +10 db boost, almost too much at times.