I just saw an article, referenced in another forum here, about LG's 2007 product line. It includes:

DR787T - DVD playback (with upconversion via HDMI) and recording, and an NTSC/ATSC/QAM tuner

RC797T - seems to be similar to above, plus VHS playback/recording.

It doesn't look like either of these have hard disks, though.

http://www.hdtvexpert.com/pages_b/LGline2007.html

I just saw an article, referenced in another forum here, about LG's 2007 product line. It includes:

DR787T - DVD playback (with upconversion via HDMI) and recording, and an NTSC/ATSC/QAM tuner

RC797T - seems to be similar to above, plus VHS playback/recording.

It doesn't look like either of these have hard disks, though.

http://www.hdtvexpert.com/pages_b/LGline2007.html

From the link"

"For recording, both the DR787T and RC797T down-convert all HD signals to SD resolution, and then bump ‘em to 480p, 720p, or 1080i for playback. There are also “plain vanilla” versions of both products without the digital/analog TV tuners, known as the DR700N and RC700N, respectively."


Don't be suprised if all of the DVD recorders with digital tuners do this as well. :mad:

edit - I'm guessing the down res is because there is no HDD? This pretty much has to be the case because of the recording to a regular DVD. I wonder what the HDD versions will offer?

The record time would just be too short if they kept full HD resolution. It won't be a great loss - I bet an HD feed downresd to SD will look better than todays recordings using an NTSC tuner. The question then becomes - does this line of LG DVDrs use the new 5th gen tuner? And of course - what will they cost?

I bet an HD feed downresd to SD will look better than todays recordings using an NTSC tuner.

I've made quite a few recordings of this type using a separate ATSC tuner, via an S-video connection, and they do look very good. I'd expect them to look even better with an integrated tuner because it would eliminate that connection and the associated conversion steps.

Even SD upconverted to HD at the broadcast station, then downrezzed again at the recorder, looks very good if the station does a good job of upconverting. There's a lot of variation from one station to another, around here.

edit - I'm guessing the down res is because there is no HDD? This pretty much has to be the case because of the recording to a regular DVD. I wonder what the HDD versions will offer?

Ahh...the million dollar question

The ideal state for current DVD technology would be to have a large enough HDD to enable recording in the transmitted resolution and then down-rez the digital to SD for burning off onto media. Will they also down-rez the 5.1 audio to 2.0? Could be.

I think such a device will satisfy the vast consumer audience -- especially if the recordings look real good from the clean digital signal -- and make high-density recorders (BR or HD-DVD) into video footnotes. This will also appease the content providers who will still be able to sell their wares in HD format.

The ideal state for current DVD technology would be to have a large enough HDD to enable recording in the transmitted resolution and then down-rez the digital to SD for burning off onto media. Will they also down-rez the 5.1 audio to 2.0? Could be.

I think such a device will satisfy the vast consumer audience -- especially if the recordings look real good from the clean digital signal -- and make high-density recorders (BR or HD-DVD) into video footnotes. This will also appease the content providers who will still be able to sell their wares in HD format.

Also the media price comes into question for the next few years. It will take a while for BluRay/HD-DVD blanks and rewriteables to drop significantly in price. 20c for DVD-R vs $20 for BluRay-R! 40c per DVD-RW/+RW or $1 for DVD-RAM vs $25 for BluRay-RE!

20c/disk?
Weren't you just looking at some 5c media in the other thread.

I'm glad they will include the QAM tuner. I've been looking at the Vizio TV's just because they have the QAM capable tuner. I can watch the digital cable channels in rooms I don't have the cable box. Most of what I watch in the digital band should be in the clear.

I'm glad they will include the QAM tuner. I've been looking at the Vizio TV's just because they have the QAM capable tuner. I can watch the digital cable channels in rooms I don't have the cable box. Most of what I watch in the digital band should be in the clear.

TWC in my area has the local OTA channels in the clear. The lineup is identical when using the QAM or the ASTC. The advantage to using the QAM tuner is that the reception is more consistent. With the ASTC I was on the fringe of a couple of the OTA's reception areas and the performance was not good. Using QAM in my case doesn't mean I get any more channels that I would using ASTC. Originally I tought I might but it seems cable companies are getting better at managing clear channels.

TWC in my area has the local OTA channels in the clear. The lineup is identical when using the QAM or the ASTC. The advantage to using the QAM tuner is that the reception is more consistent. With the ASTC I was on the fringe of a couple of the OTA's reception areas and the performance was not good. Using QAM in my case doesn't mean I get any more channels that I would using ASTC. Originally I tought I might but it seems cable companies are getting better at managing clear channels.

In my area QAM and OTA are very different. TWC leaves out some of the subchannels and doesn't carry the CW in HD at all. I guess it all depends on your area.

Be careful what you wish for. The price of the Panasonic DMREX85 is about $700. It has digital and analogue tuners, and they are using it in GB and other countries.

Of course, we would like it to be HD. Considering the price of Blue Ray, players, HD would easily add $1,500 to the price. Recently there was such a machine released in Japan for about $3,000.

So what will the average person pay for they consider a “high tech VCR”?.

In my area QAM and OTA are very different. TWC leaves out some of the subchannels and doesn't carry the CW in HD at all. I guess it all depends on your area.

I get the sub channels when I use the ASTC or the QAM tuner. You make a good point about the CW. I'll have to check. I get the major networks ABC,CBS,FOX,NBC,PBS and a couple of odd ON-Demand advertising channels that are nothing more than continuous loops being played over and over.

So what will the average person pay for they consider a “high tech VCR”?.
$100-$150 for a current vintage VCR with QAM/ATSC tuner added.

$150-$200 for a DVDr with QAM/ATSC tuner.

$300-$400 for a DVDr w/ HDD with QAM/ATSC tuner.

funny, there was no mention on whether these LG recorders have component inputs.

I sure wish there was something about these two units on the LG site. Price would be nice to know as well as chip generation before I go out and buy a tuner only Samsung to help me with my ATSC ota multipath issues.

DonB2

$100-$150 for a current vintage VCR with QAM/ATSC tuner added.

$150-$200 for a DVDr with QAM/ATSC tuner.

$300-$400 for a DVDr w/ HDD with QAM/ATSC tuner.

I would buy a VCR with ATSC tuner for $100 today. I can't figure out why a ATSC tuner costs so much more than a regular tuner. What makes them so expensive?

I would buy a VCR with ATSC tuner for $100 today. I can't figure out why a ATSC tuner costs so much more than a regular tuner. What makes them so expensive?

It is newer technology that has not hit mass production - yet. Oh and the marketing. There is a price to pay there too.

But in all reality when it comes to recording to DVD it will be down res'd to 480i. So I am still trying to reconcile all of the pent up demand. It will not be that different from what we have now. At least on the recording side.

I have an ASTC/QAM tuner now in my television. It is great. So I have one already.

I do not think the emergence of ATSC/QAM tuners in DVD recorders will be consistent with everybody's expectations when they arrive. Recordings will still be in 480i.

I think that the pent up demand is because, *with a good signal*, the picture quality can be much better.

Don't get me wrong.. this is not a "digital is always better than analog" statement. Heck, in fact, I think analog is in many ways better than digital --- because it degrades gracefully.

But even I, without digital cable nor an HDTV yet, want a ATSC/QAM tuner -- for the free OTA and QAM broadcasts. It would probably make me upgrade some of my wiring and such, because I never was able to get good signals on all of the channels I had in the few brief periods of digital cable I've had (only on promos where the price was the same or lower than I was already paying for extended basic)... because I have ancient coax & crappy cheap splitters..

But the possibility of getting "free" better signals (ignoring any cabling upgrades), is a plus.

I think that the pent up demand is because, *with a good signal*, the picture quality can be much better.

Don't get me wrong.. this is not a "digital is always better than analog" statement. Heck, in fact, I think analog is in many ways better than digital --- because it degrades gracefully.

But even I, without digital cable nor an HDTV yet, want a ATSC/QAM tuner -- for the free OTA and QAM broadcasts. It would probably make me upgrade some of my wiring and such, because I never was able to get good signals on all of the channels I had in the few brief periods of digital cable I've had (only on promos where the price was the same or lower than I was already paying for extended basic)... because I have ancient coax & crappy cheap splitters..

But the possibility of getting "free" better signals (ignoring any cabling upgrades), is a plus.

Yes of course.

But what about recording? In my opinion very little will change. Except perhaps one generation. But that will be up to the interpretation of the quality of the tuner.

...I am still trying to reconcile all of the pent up demand. It will not be that different from what we have now...Recordings will still be in 480i.

The demand from my point of view:

Right now I have an NTSC DVDR. I have a TV with ATSC. So, now the TV has to be on and tuned to what you're recording. An ATSC DVDR fixes this.

programmable digital station recording while you're away without the TV on
and
watch one digital while recording another

and note: all this without cable, sat, or tivo costs

I am seriously looking forward to it.

As for the quality, HD to 480 still looks pretty good, and Blu and/or HD recordables aren't going to be common and cheap for a long time.

Mike

I do not think the emergence of ATSC/QAM tuners in DVD recorders will be consistent with everybody's expectations when they arrive. Recordings will still be in 480i.
Yes they'll be 480i but that's still noticeably better than VHS or current gen DVDr recordings from NTSC tuners. I think it will be the "good enough" solution (instead of full HD) for many people.

The ideal state for current DVD technology would be to have a large enough HDD to enable recording in the transmitted resolution and then down-rez the digital to SD for burning off onto media. Will they also down-rez the 5.1 audio to 2.0? Could be.

I think such a device will satisfy the vast consumer audience -- especially if the recordings look real good from the clean digital signal -- and make high-density recorders (BR or HD-DVD) into video footnotes. This will also appease the content providers who will still be able to sell their wares in HD format.

Such a device already exists (in effect). I record HDTV on a Comcast dual tuner PVR in full HD resolution and 5.1 audio, and I can copy that signal in SD format to a DVD using a Panasonic E80H DVD HDD recorder. A clean HD program copied thusly to a DVD is very close to a pre-recorded DVD in quality. The only drawback is audio is just 2.0.

Such a device already exists (in effect). I record HDTV on a Comcast dual tuner PVR in full HD resolution and 5.1 audio, and I can copy that signal in SD format to a DVD using a Panasonic E80H DVD HDD recorder. A clean HD program copied thusly to a DVD is very close to a pre-recorded DVD in quality. The only drawback is audio is just 2.0.

True, but you are dealing with 2 units and an analog transfer between the two. A recorder with this functionality would eliminate a unit and analog transfer. (Theoretically, producing a better picture)

You may also be able to down-rez at faster than real time since the analog transfer isn't involved. This should also eliminate the widescreen flag issue that has been discussed here. Some HD DVR's don't output the flag and some recorders (E80H) won't set the flag, so a PC edit is a necessary step with 2 units. (Fortunately, my Sony HD DVR sends the 16:9 flag to my E80H, however I still must edit on the PC as the recorder loses the flag when recording to DVD-R and maintains the flag when recording to DVD-RAM).

Such a device already exists (in effect). I record HDTV on a Comcast dual tuner PVR in full HD resolution and 5.1 audio, and I can copy that signal in SD format to a DVD using a Panasonic E80H DVD HDD recorder. A clean HD program copied thusly to a DVD is very close to a pre-recorded DVD in quality. The only drawback is audio is just 2.0.Such a device does not exist, yet, for those of us who obtain our video OTA. In a couple years my E-85 will become an OTA analog paperweight and I will have to replace it. Hopefully by that time we will have gone through a couple generations of current DVDRs with ATSC/QAM tuners and they will have worked out the initial kinks. For a couple decades, low-res VCR recording was "good enough". I expect a clean 720x480 recording from a down-rez'd HD signal will be more than good enough for most. The recordings would be DVD quality and probably look pretty good when upconverted to 1080 (assuming continuing advances in upconverting circuitry).

Such a device does not exist, yet, for those of us who obtain our video OTA.

The dual device setup does exist for OTA only people (like myself, see my "title"). Finding a new device to record OTA HD is becoming harder, but it can be done. I use a Sony DHG-HDD250 (30 hours HD) and a Panny DMR-E80H. The Sony to record and output to the Panny.

I use strictly OTA and love the fact that I can record HD for the shows I may miss when I'm not home :D There is also the LST-3410A by LG that can do the same as the Sony unit.

Such a device does not exist, yet, for those of us who obtain our video OTA. In a couple years my E-85 will become an OTA analog paperweight and I will have to replace it.Maybe you can still gat a few bucks for it from someone who who wants it to record from an outboard tuner :) .

I'll probably try to do that with my E85, but I'll most likely be keepin' my Sony RDR-HX900 - I can record from my Sony HD DVR to it in 16:9 over component. The results are so good that I'm not in any big hurry to have a downconverting unit that will do it all internally.

In a couple years my E-85 will become an OTA analog paperweight and I will have to replace it.Well, if you buy an ATSC tuner that can downconvert to S-Video then you're E-85 can continue to earn it's keep. I understand that the federal government is going to give out vouchers towards buying that type of equipment as compensation for snatching the spectrum away...

Well, if you buy an ATSC tuner that can downconvert to S-Video then you're E-85 can continue to earn it's keep. I understand that the federal government is going to give out vouchers towards buying that type of equipment as compensation for snatching the spectrum away...But in order for this to be useful (for me) the converter would have to be able to be controlled by the IR blaster of the E-85. Having said that, I've looked in the usual storage places and can't find the IR blaster that came with the E-85 anywhere in the house. So, it is indeed a paperweight come 2009. That won't be so bad, I'll have gotten 4 years out of it.

The dual device setup does exist for OTA only people (like myself, see my "title"). Finding a new device to record OTA HD is becoming harder, but it can be done. I use a Sony DHG-HDD250 (30 hours HD) and a Panny DMR-E80H. The Sony to record and output to the Panny.

I use strictly OTA and love the fact that I can record HD for the shows I may miss when I'm not home :D There is also the LST-3410A by LG that can do the same as the Sony unit.Sorry for my lack of clarity. I was referring to a single box solution (i.e. a DVDR with ATSC) as per my original post. The link you cite was interesting reading but correct me if wrong, it was an announcement of LG products and that DVDR is not available for sale yet. Also, as i read it, it appeared the LG downconverted all HD to SD as it recorded it to the HDD and then upconverted it when played. It would be nicer if it recorded and played as native HD and only down converted when burning to disk.

I suspect that around March we will have a number of DVDR/ATSC offerings.

Most people's current recorders will still be just as useful in 2009 and beyond if they have cable or satellite service (see my post above (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8917305&&#post8917305)).Yes, I agree, for as long as cable continues to transmit analog. But as per my original post, I am concerned with OTA which is how I get my signals.

Also, as i read it, it appeared the LG downconverted all HD to SD as it recorded it to the HDD and then upconverted it when played. It would be nicer if it recorded and played as native HD and only down converted when burning to disk.


I agree with you totally on this. If this is the case I might actually buy one right away, otherwise I'll probably wait until one of my units dies.

But in order for this to be useful (for me) the converter would have to be able to be controlled by the IR blaster of the E-85.I'd bet that stand-alone ATSC tuners will be available which can be programmed to turn on and switch to a certain channel at a given time, just like cable STBs can do. That way, you schedule a recording in two places - once on your DVD recorder and once on your STB. It's a little more work, but it's how I schedule recordings for pay channels with my cable STB and it works just fine.

20c/disk?
Weren't you just looking at some 5c media in the other thread.

Sorry for the tape-delayed reply. I'm behind on my subscribed threads :-)

I used 20c as a reference because the ones at 20c in my experience are fairly reliable. The 5c Playos and such, I don't trust as much for must-save one-chance recordings, but you are right, the comparison could be at 5c per disk instead...

The Memorex (hello Spyder6969) discounted their HD recordables from $20 to $17 per, but I would be scared to put that brand in a $1000 BluRay/HD-DVD recorder (not that I would ever buy one) :-)

I am still waiting for a combined ATSC /DVD recorder, I can live it upconverting / downconverting to DVD instead of directly to a HD if the price is right.

-DonB2

Just a few more weeks till CES - info should be out then.

Just a few more weeks till CES - info should be out then.

Indeed! It will be interesting to see what direction they go to and what they do about digital tuners (ATSC/QAM), media types (+/-/RAM and HD/BR), size of hard discs, and whether any of them license the TiVo interface...

I sent this EMAIL to LG on 1/5/07:

I am curious as to when you will be shipping the LG DVD/VCD HD ATSC tuners - Model DR787T and Model RC797T.

The reply:

Dear Customer, Thank you for inquiring of LG Electronics. At this time, we have no information pertaining to possible future releases; however, your email has been forwarded to our research and development department. Customer requests are highly considered in the process of developing new product aesthetics and features. Please feel free to contact us with any additional questions or concerns. Thank you again for contacting LG Electronics. Kristi E-mail Administrator Customer Interactive Center LGEAI

-DonB2

I sent this EMAIL to LG on 1/5/07:

I am curious as to when you will be shipping the LG DVD/VCD HD ATSC tuners - Model DR787T and Model RC797T.

The reply:

Dear Customer, Thank you for inquiring of LG Electronics. At this time, we have no information pertaining to possible future releases; however, your email has been forwarded to our research and development department. Customer requests are highly considered in the process of developing new product aesthetics and features. Please feel free to contact us with any additional questions or concerns. Thank you again for contacting LG Electronics. Kristi E-mail Administrator Customer Interactive Center LGEAI

-DonB2

Don't you love the $10/hr support rep that can cut and paste canned answered.

How R&D would do anything with your release date request is beyond me. So according to their email LG doesn't know when they are shipping new items until it ships...I wonder who packs them and calls the carrier :D

DVDrs are not that sexy or high on the list of priority items for most makers - you're bound to see them on the shelves instead of any big announcement.

I felt like writing back to them since the answer was rather canned but figured I would just get another canned reply.

I just hope it has as least as good a ATSC tuner as the Samsung DTB-H260F.

-DonB2

But in order for this to be useful (for me) the converter would have to be able to be controlled by the IR blaster of the E-85. Having said that, I've looked in the usual storage places and can't find the IR blaster that came with the E-85 anywhere in the house. So, it is indeed a paperweight come 2009. That won't be so bad, I'll have gotten 4 years out of it.
I have IR blasters from many different devices and as long as the plug is the same, all of them are compatible with each other. It's just an IR led. I don't think my E85 came with an IR blaster, come to think of it. Anyway, if you really need one and can't just order one from some source, I have one I'm not using that I can send to you. It will have to have the right "end" though to plug into the DVD recorder.

Just don't order one from Sony.

I was looking for one a year or so ago and saw on their website that they wanted $25.00 for it!!

OK: CES news!

http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-12760_7-9675202-5.html
http://www.twice.com/article/CA6405217.html?industryid=23099

Prices have STILL NOT been given for the LG ATSC tuners. BUT, there have been prices given for DVD+VCR and DVD-only models from Panasonic, RCA, and Samsung, ranging from $230 to $380.

Also, the cheapest of them all (a $230 Panasonic without a VCR) either will or won't have HDMI upconversion, depending on the source. I hope that Reed's wrong. :(

dump the VCR and give me a hard drive that can record an HD signal.

I bought a VCR (old one died) last year that remains in the closet and is only pulled out when I need it (have used it once).

Why won't these people listen.....

ATSC/QAM Tuner
Hard Drive (500GB) to record 60 hours of HDTV
DVD Recorder to archive hard drive items (in 480i/p of course)
HDMI Output to watch HDTV from live and hard drive feed and upconverted DVD.

NO VCR COMBO -- I don't know anyone that owns one of these.

I am waiting to buy a unit like I described above, does anyone want to make one? For now my Sony HD DVR and my old E80H will have to do.

Let the VCR die like the 8-track player! Pawn shops and eBay will VCR's for years to come....let consumers buy them there.

My friend works at Best Buy and has seen some DVD recorders come in with printing on the boxes that states the recorders will not be work after Feb 2009 without a converter box. He didn't recall the exact wording. It was not a big warning label but just printed on the box along with all the information such as features, etc. He wonders how many people actual read the info on the box.

I would buy a VCR with ATSC tuner for $100 today. I can't figure out why a ATSC tuner costs so much more than a regular tuner. What makes them so expensive?
Analog tuners don't require a little computer with memory.
See what an ATSC tuner needs to do at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATSC_tuner
Quote:
performs the following tasks: demodulation, error correction, transport stream demultiplexing, decompression, analog to digital conversion, AV synchronization, and media reformatting

Also patents and royalties cost $23 bucks for each one:
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/bizchina/2006-12/27/content_768603.htm

dump the VCR and give me a hard drive that can record an HD signal.

I bought a VCR (old one died) last year that remains in the closet and is only pulled out when I need it (have used it once).

Why won't these people listen.....

ATSC/QAM Tuner
Hard Drive (500GB) to record 60 hours of HDTV
DVD Recorder to archive hard drive items (in 480i/p of course)
HDMI Output to watch HDTV from live and hard drive feed and upconverted DVD.

NO VCR COMBO -- I don't know anyone that owns one of these.

I am waiting to buy a unit like I described above, does anyone want to make one? For now my Sony HD DVR and my old E80H will have to do.

Let the VCR die like the 8-track player! Pawn shops and eBay will VCR's for years to come....let consumers buy them there.


I go along with what you say. But I don't think the people that frequent these forums carry much weight with the manufacturers. IOW, we are a small part of the total consumer electronics market.

My friend works at Best Buy and has mentioned a couple times that they do not carry DVD recorders with hard drives because people were returning them and saying they were too difficult to use.

He also said they sell a lot of the VCR combo units. The presumption was that people want to copy their home movies to disc with a push of a single button.

Anyway it makes me concerned that the manufacturers may stop making HDD models. I thought I read in a CES thread that Panny did not introduce and new HDD models, but I'd have to go back & re-read that thread.

I go along with what you say. But I don't think the people that frequent these forums carry much weight with the manufacturers. IOW, we are a small part of the total consumer electronics market.

My friend works at Best Buy and has mentioned a couple times that they do not carry DVD recorders with hard drives because people were returning them and saying they were too difficult to use.

He also said they sell a lot of the VCR combo units. The presumption was that people want to copy their home movies to disc with a push of a single button.

Anyway it makes me concerned that the manufacturers may stop making HDD models. I thought I read in a CES thread that Panny did not introduce and new HDD models, but I'd have to go back & re-read that thread.

As far as I know, no one announced a DVD recorder with a HDD this CES 2007 :-(

As far as I know, no one announced a DVD recorder with a HDD this CES 2007 :-(

I guess if none come out with hard drives, no reason for me to upgrade...only was planning on upgrading to combine 2 units (DVR with HD playback and DVDR for archiving at 480 lines). Just keep my old DMR-E80H up and running I guess :D

I guess if none come out with hard drives, no reason for me to upgrade...only was planning on upgrading to combine 2 units (DVR with HD playback and DVDR for archiving at 480 lines). Just keep my old DMR-E80H up and running I guess :D

The only thing so far with a HDD is the Sony hybrid PC/BluRay at $2000+ :-(

I thought about using my old computer to build a PVR, but it's not powerful enuf. So I'd have to buy a cheap PC, HD tuner card, software, etc. Sure would be cheaper to buy a DVD recorder with a HDD and digital tuner - presuming someone will make one.

My guess is that DVD recorders with HDDs will be announced later in the year.

I happened to be reading the FCC order of November 2005 that established the last stages of the tuner mandate, moving forward (to March 1, 2007) the date that all broadcast TV receivers (TVs, recorders, etc.) have to have ATSC tuners. It notes that Panasonic and other manufacturers argued against this move, citing the time it takes to engineer and test new products, and that they would have to do it with many products simultaneously.

So we may be seeing the effects of this, in that manufacturers have had to give priority to putting ATSC tuners in products that they can sell more of, and make more money from, with "niche" products following later.

So we may be seeing the effects of this, in that manufacturers have had to give priority to putting ATSC tuners in products that they can sell more of, and make more money from, with "niche" products following later.

The point about engineering and testing time sounds reasonable. Just to throw some more ideas into the mix:

Does anyone find it curious that all the big guys made the same decision not to upgrade their existing HDD units with ATSC tuners? You'd think one might have broken away from the group, since the first one out may have profit advantages over the also-rans.

Will some clone maker be the first, ahead of Panasonic, Sony, Toshiba, et al.?

Will someone hit with a no-hassle HTPC for this niche (as opposed to the multiple-hassle HTPC solutions now available)?

And: With a good HDD DVR that records and plays back hi-def (archiving to DVD with lower resolution when something just has to be saved), some viewers may say "a plague on both your houses" to Blu-Ray and HD-DVD and adopt neither. Does that have a part in this?

And: With a good HDD DVR that records and plays back hi-def (archiving to DVD with lower resolution when something just has to be saved), some viewers may say "a plague on both your houses" to Blu-Ray and HD-DVD and adopt neither. Does that have a part in this?
Such a unit would certainly slow the adoption of HD DVDrs. I think most folks use a recorder for time shifting and less so for archving - under such a scenario a DVDr w/HDD that can record HD to the HDD is very compeling to most folks.

Analog tuners don't require a little computer with memory.
See what an ATSC tuner needs to do at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATSC_tuner
Quote:
performs the following tasks: demodulation, error correction, transport stream demultiplexing, decompression, analog to digital conversion, AV synchronization, and media reformatting

Also patents and royalties cost $23 bucks for each one:
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/bizchina/2006-12/27/content_768603.htm
It might be complicated but it certainly won't be that expensive. I assume when makers buy the ATSC chip all royalties have already been paid. Most chip makers are quoting the chip at less than the royalty figure listed in that article. The $50 STB by 09 would not be possible with such royalties.

Why won't these people listen.....

ATSC/QAM Tuner
Hard Drive (500GB) to record 60 hours of HDTV
DVD Recorder to archive hard drive items (in 480i/p of course)
HDMI Output to watch HDTV from live and hard drive feed and upconverted DVD.


I'm in for one. I'd easily pay $500 for a unit with these capabilities!

I happened to be reading the FCC order of November 2005 that established the last stages of the tuner mandate, moving forward (to March 1, 2007) the date that all broadcast TV receivers (TVs, recorders, etc.) have to have ATSC tuners. It notes that Panasonic and other manufacturers argued against this move, citing the time it takes to engineer and test new products, and that they would have to do it with many products simultaneously.

So we may be seeing the effects of this, in that manufacturers have had to give priority to putting ATSC tuners in products that they can sell more of, and make more money from, with "niche" products following later.

Sounds like good reasoning to me. I really can't believe that that likes of Panasonic, etc. are giving up the DVDR HDD market. They should be coming along in the near future.

I assume when makers buy the ATSC chip all royalties have already been paid. Most chip makers are quoting the chip at less than the royalty figure listed in that article. The $50 STB by 09 would not be possible with such royalties.
I wouldn't make that assumption. Many chips are programmable, so you don't have to pay royalties until it is doing the patent infringing job. I suspect that the $23 dollar figure is for a ATSC receiver+TV that is doing everything. Perhaps the chip(s) you are looking at doesn't do everything.

I wouldn't make that assumption. Many chips are programmable, so you don't have to pay royalties until it is doing the patent infringing job. I suspect that the $23 dollar figure is for a ATSC receiver+TV that is doing everything. Perhaps the chip(s) you are looking at doesn't do everything.
The chip that does the heavy lifting is the one that makes all the 1s and 0s into a picture. There's probably some front end RF circuitry that hasn't changed in 50 years - but everything after that (until the signal is handed off to the display) is probably all on one chip. And as most chip makers boast - that chip usually can handle QAM too. The only thing the chip does that can probably be claimed for royalty is the decoding (scheme someone invented) - I just don't see how anyone will get $23/chip for that.

I think this page lists the claimed patents and the companies making the claims:
http://www.atsc.org/patent/patentstatements.html
Seems rather ridiculous to me, although most people I know that have studied the U.S. patent system find it ridiculous. Too many patents for obvious things. Given a problem most engineers would solve it the same or similar way. There shouldn't be a patent for it. I don't know why the U.S. government is forcing a standard that is controlled by so many patents. Is that a Clinton administration mistake?

I think this page lists the claimed patents and the companies making the claims:
http://www.atsc.org/patent/patentstatements.html
Seems rather ridiculous to me, although most people I know that have studied the U.S. patent system find it ridiculous. Too many patents for obvious things. Given a problem most engineers would solve it the same or similar way. There shouldn't be a patent for it. I don't know why the U.S. government is forcing a standard that is controlled by so many patents. Is that a Clinton administration mistake?
The ATSC standard was chosen during that time. Like other things in the market - it's not necessarily the best solution that wins the day - it's the one with the best marketing and political push that does.

It just seems to me that the market quickly became saturated with ATSC tumers in TVs to the point that very few STB's are even being sold.

If it was that easy to incorporate them into TV's I would guess that it would not be much more difficult to put one in a DVD recorder. The hardest part being the downconverting and upconverting although the S Video output is basically a down converter I think.

-DonB2

If it was that easy to incorporate them into TV's I would guess that it would not be much more difficult to put one in a DVD recorder.
Technically it's easy - but it takes money and the makers have to price this into the final product competing against existing lower priced offerings.

Getting back to the specs discussion, the press releases from CES have been awfully vague. Not everyone mentions QAM, so it's hard to determine whether they will or won't have QAM. LG's recorders will have it and seemingly Toshiba as well. The Panny, JVC, and LiteOn press releases don't mention it.

Also, the blurbs also point out that these recorders accept "all standard DVD formats/types". I wonder if that includes the DVD+R DL? Does anyone make a +RW DL??

Anyone stumble across more information about these types of DVD Recorders?

ft

EDIT, I just went back to re-read the cnet article. Looks like the Samsung's will support DL media. Still, no mention of QAM.

We may just see Blue Ray level recorders with ATSC tuners before a downconvert ATSC DVD recorder is available.

DonB2

We may just see Blue Ray level recorders with ATSC tuners before a downconvert ATSC DVD recorder is available.

DonB2
Highly unlikely.

Ok Maybe not. As the movie industry Aka Sony would not approve of capturing HD recordings in HD quality.

-DonB2

Ok Maybe not. As the movie industry Aka Sony would not approve of capturing HD recordings in HD quality.

-DonB2
Not only that but there's the issue of format wars, cost and competition (SD DVDr w/HDD for $300)

I'm reading on this forum that ATSC tuners will be mandatory for any devince from March 1, 2007.
I imagine that's a rule for the USA.
Do you know if the schedule is the same for Canada ?

Getting back to the specs discussion, the press releases from CES have been awfully vague. Not everyone mentions QAM, so it's hard to determine whether they will or won't have QAM. LG's recorders will have it and seemingly Toshiba as well. The Panny, JVC, and LiteOn press releases don't mention it.

Also, the blurbs also point out that these recorders accept "all standard DVD formats/types". I wonder if that includes the DVD+R DL? Does anyone make a +RW DL??

Anyone stumble across more information about these types of DVD Recorders?

ft

EDIT, I just went back to re-read the cnet article. Looks like the Samsung's will support DL media. Still, no mention of QAM.

It is indeed sad that they have professional marketing departments yet they fail to release essential information about their products. Unless of course they are not finalized (no pun intended) and they are buying time...

How hard is it to write a press release that states:
1) What you are planning to sell? (specifications)
2) When?
3) How much?

It's that simple marketing peoples :-)

I'm reading on this forum that ATSC tuners will be mandatory for any devince from March 1, 2007.
I imagine that's a rule for the USA.
Do you know if the schedule is the same for Canada ?

Unfortunately, Industry Canada has not yet made this requirement apply to Canada, so it is highly possible that a whole bunch of small TVs and DVD recorders that can't be sold in the States will be dumped in Canada. :(

Ok, I am getting up to speed. I had not thought HD Blue Ray DVD recorders were available to the consumer but I see Comp USA has on for around $600.00

-DonB2

Ok, I am getting up to speed. I had not thought HD Blue Ray DVD recorders were available to the consumer but I see Comp USA has on for around $600.00

-DonB2

This might be of interest also..http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=791073

DLSDO,

Thanks, I was kinda wondering what this new recorder was really capable of copying since commercial HD movies are protected.


-Donb2

I've been curious about what really happens on March 1, 2007, esp. what happens to units on the shelf? Apparently, they can still be sold since the FCC order states the digital tuners are reqd for anything "shipped in interstate commerce or imported after March 1, 2007 and for which they are responsible" (leaves out stores and current stock). In fact, some of the industry comments keyed in on that issue/question by saying those already on the shelf are still usable by consumers. That might explain why no one is too hot to discount so far.

The actual FCC order (amended) is here (http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-05-190A1.pdf) and Appendix B says this:

"(i) Digital television reception capability implementation schedule. (1) Responsible parties, as defined in Section 2.909 of this chapter, are required to equip new TV broadcast receivers that are shipped in interstate commerce or imported from any foreign country into the United States and for which they are responsible to comply with the provisions of this section in accordance with the following schedule:

- Receivers with screen sizes 36” and above - 50% of all of a responsible party’s units must include DTV tuners effective July 1, 2004; 100% of such units must include DTV tuners effective July 1, 2005

- Receivers with screen sizes 25” to less than 36” - 50% of all of a responsible party’s units must include DTV tuners effective July 1, 2005; 100% of such units must include DTV tuners effective March 1, 2006

- Receivers with screen sizes less than 25” - 100% of all such units must include DTV tuners effective March 1, 2007

- Other video devices (videocassette recorders (VCRs), digital video recorders such as hard drive and DVD recorders, etc.) that receive television signals - 100% of all such units must include DTV tuners effective March 1, 2007.

The requirement to include digital television reception capability in new TV broadcast receivers does not apply to devices such as mobile telephones and personal digital assistants where such devices do not include the capability to receive TV service on the frequencies allocated for broadcast television service."

I've been curious about what really happens on March 1, 2007, esp. what happens to units on the shelf?

They will continue to be sold as they are today. You probably won't see discounts until the next generation of units are released....just like any new product release.

I've been curious about what really happens on March 1, 2007, esp. what happens to units on the shelf? Apparently, they can still be sold since the FCC order states the digital tuners are reqd for anything "shipped in interstate commerce or imported after March 1, 2007 and for which they are responsible" (leaves out stores and current stock). I can give you an example that is anecdotal but interesting. Last year I purchased a new 27" TV for the bedroom in late February so I spent a couple days in Circuit City looking at the stock and getting an idea of picture quality, then buying a unit. From all that looking I was quite familiar with all the models on display. A couple weeks later soon after the March 1 2006 deadline I was back in the same Circuit City and observed that there now was not a single TV over 25" without a digital tuner. They wiped the stock clean of all NTSC-only units.

The unit I had purchased a couple weeks earlier was a Panasonic. Now I found that there was not a single Panasonic CRT TV on display. A look into the Panasonic website at the time revealed that Panasonic offered no units in that size range with digital tuners -- They were not compliant with the mandate and so they were not on the shelf at that CC.

As I said, anecdotal at best, but here is a case where some retailers may opt to simply yank the NTSC-only units and send them back to the manufacturers. I'll see what they do this March.

As I said, anecdotal at best, but here is a case where some retailers may opt to simply yank the NTSC-only units and send them back to the manufacturers. I'll see what they do this March.
Not gonna happen. There were plenty of analog tuner over 25" TVs on shelves at many stores after March last year. The reason that may have happened at some stores is to push flat screens in that size range.

The local Walmart has more than 15 CRTs and 5 LCD models (and a bunch of DVDrs) under 25" with analog tuners that will surely be on display well after the 3/1 deadline.

And how many STB ATSC OTA tuners does Walmart have on the shelves? Last I look they had zero.

Also I do not see why NTSC tuners ever have to go away. Recently I found out that cable companies are not required to go digital. It is only the broadcast stations that are mandated by the goverment to go digital.

-DonB2

And how many STB ATSC OTA tuners does Walmart have on the shelves? Last I look they had zero.

2
As does just about every other retailer - what does that have to do with anything.


Also I do not see why NTSC tuners ever have to go away. Recently I found out that cable companies are not required to go digital. It is only the broadcast stations that are mandated by the goverment to go digital.

Availability of NTSC on cable will not keep NTSC equipment around. In 5 years you will be hard pressed to find anything new with an NTSC tuner in it.

Also, just because they are not required to do digital doesn't mean they won't. ;)

I guess the speed of product transition will vary based on whether your retailers have a distribution center in your state. If there is one, you'll likely be fed all the leftover stuff from the warehouses that can't be shipped out-of-state for a while. If you live in a state with very few retailers and no distribution centers (like Vermont), probably you'll get the new stuff much quicker (as soon as the store sells out of the current stock).

Here is a CES preview of a Samsung DVD recorder with ATSC tuner that a poster at another forum was kind enough to share:

http://hometheater.about.com/od/ontheroadatces/ig/CES-2007---Photo-Gallery/Samsung-DVD-Recorder-w--ATSC.htm

( http://hometheater.about.com/od/ont...der-w--ATSC.htm )

Hope this URL works, if not please jump to the Samsung DTB-H260F ATSC tuner forum to get it.

-DonB2

I guess the speed of product transition will vary based on whether your retailers have a distribution center in your state. If there is one, you'll likely be fed all the leftover stuff from the warehouses that can't be shipped out-of-state for a while. If you live in a state with very few retailers and no distribution centers (like Vermont), probably you'll get the new stuff much quicker (as soon as the store sells out of the current stock).
The FCC won't send the police to sit at the state border to hand out tickets to distributor's trucks who come in with a load "illegal" TVs from out of state. If BB has a bunch analog TVs in Mass and they're all sold out in Vt you can bet they'll ship them there after 3/1.

The FCC won't send the police to sit at the state border to hand out tickets to distributor's trucks who come in with a load "illegal" TVs from out of state. If BB has a bunch analog TVs in Mass and they're all sold out in Vt you can bet they'll ship them there after 3/1.
You're right on this...U.S. "distributors" and retailers aren't affected at all. The FCC's order refers to "responsible parties" who are the ones who have to abide by the DTV rule.

Here's an explanation of "responsible parties":

"Responsible Party

Section 2.909 of the FCC rules defines the responsible party and how the party is responsible for the compliance of radio frequency equipment with the applicable standards. For equipment that requires a grant of equipment authorization from the Commission, the responsible party is the entity to whom that authorization is granted (referred to as the grantee).

In the case of equipment subject to authorization under the verification procedure, the manufacturer (or in the case of imported equipment, the importer) is the responsible party. When the equipment is subject to authorization under the DoC procedure, the responsible party is:

The manufacturer or, if the equipment is assembled from modular components that were subject to a DoC and the resulting system is subject to authorization under a DoC, the assembler.

The importer if the equipment, by itself, is subject to a DoC and that equipment is imported. Remember, if a product is imported, the importer is the responsible party, not the foreign manufacturer."

I just want to see a Black and white set for sale at target with a ATSC tuner.

-DonB2 :)

I just want to see a Black and white set for sale at target with a ATSC tuner.

LOL! Let me guess it should also have a dial to change the channels and a knob to change the volume, brightness and contrast? How about horizontal and vertical hold controls at the back? Of course it has to be built into a wooden console.

Cable, if they're smart, which might be a stretch, will market their ability to supply analog signals after the analog shutoff date. Cable, being greedy, may use the demise of analog broadcast to "push" their customers to digital offerings for which they'll happily, for an annual amount exceeding its retail cost, rent a STB to anyone who wants to keep running their analog TV.

...for an annual amount exceeding its retail cost, rent a STB to anyone who wants to keep running their analog TV.

Never have rented a STB before, but I'm assuming the fees are $5-10. I haven't seen a digital STB that you can purchase for less than $120. The one I have with ATSC/QAM tuner was about $150, but couldn't handle encrypted signals. The one's I've seen for satellite are about $300.

If cable companies are smart, they will take their "analog standard" and make it a "digital standard" (unencrypted) so that people with new TV sets won't need a STB and only people that want advanced services (PPV, etc) and old analog sets would a STB. Remember back in the day before TV's were cable ready? You had to rent a STB. (One with a dial and no remote...from what I remember)

Remember back in the day before TV's were cable ready? You had to rent a STB. (One with a dial and no remote...from what I remember)Yes, those were the good old days for the cable companies -- they were able to charge you a fee for every TV you had hooked up to their service. Remember when the telco's used to charge you a fee for an extension handset (I'm revealing my age).

Well now digital is going to let them reclaim the good old days. By encrypting everything they are allowed to, once again they will be able to exact a fee from you for every TV connected to their service. And this is on top of the premium they are going to charge you for digital transmission.

You've never rented an STB. I've never paid for TV, and never will.

I just want to see a Black and white set for sale at target with a ATSC tuner.

-DonB2 :)

Hey. The law is the law... :rolleyes:

I've never paid for TV, and never will.

Huh? Unencrypted OTA and commercial DVD's only?

You've never rented an STB. I've never paid for TV, and never will.

Actually, since I've been on my own for 10 years, I've only paid about 12 months for "standard" cable. Basically just to have a clear signal...since apartments were not the best for mounting huge antennas. I'm not saying that I didn't live in houses where the previous owner disconnected cable service and the cable company forgot to come and physically disconnect it (5 years later), but I've only paid for 12 months of cable.

Now I just use ATSC OTA exclusively and makes friends picture quality who are still using analog signals look really bad :)

Never have rented a STB before, but I'm assuming the fees are $5-10. I haven't seen a digital STB that you can purchase for less than $120. The one I have with ATSC/QAM tuner was about $150, but couldn't handle encrypted signals. The one's I've seen for satellite are about $300.

If cable companies are smart, they will take their "analog standard" and make it a "digital standard" (unencrypted) so that people with new TV sets won't need a STB and only people that want advanced services (PPV, etc) and old analog sets would a STB. Remember back in the day before TV's were cable ready? You had to rent a STB. (One with a dial and no remote...from what I remember)

Back to the A/B boxes! Maybe A/D for Analog/Digital ;-)

I too agree that they should make the digital equivalent of "standad analog cable" available unencrypted to subscribers!

"Back to the A/B boxes! Maybe A/D for Analog/Digital ;-)

I too agree that they should make the digital equivalent of "standad analog cable" available unencrypted to subscribers! "

I would think they are losing so much bandwidth with analog that they would jump at the chance of getting rid of it.

-DonB2

I would think they are losing so much bandwidth with analog that they would jump at the chance of getting rid of it.


They'll do that 3/09 and use the OTA analog shutdown as the excuse to do it.

"They'll do that 3/09 and use the OTA analog shutdown as the excuse to do it. "

By the way I read where one independent Cable company put up a banner with a couple of paragraphs stating at least the way I read it, that HD was overstated and that customers are happier with NTSC.

I found this hard to believe. I wish I had a copy of the banner.

The only thing I can figure is the cable company has not yet put the money out for digital conversion.

-Donb2

"Back to the A/B boxes! Maybe A/D for Analog/Digital ;-)

I too agree that they should make the digital equivalent of "standad analog cable" available unencrypted to subscribers! "

I would think they are losing so much bandwidth with analog that they would jump at the chance of getting rid of it.

-DonB2

Especially now that they would need to increase their HD channels to compete with the "100 HD channels in 2007" campaign of the satellite people (DirecTV I think).

"

The only thing I can figure is the cable company has not yet put the money out for digital conversion.


There's no money to put out - almost all material is already received in digital by the cable cos. They have to actually dumb it down (and use up BW) to NTSC for cable subs.

"There's no money to put out - almost all material is already received in digital by the cable cos. They have to actually dumb it down (and use up BW) to NTSC for cable subs."

Interesting.

-DonB2

There's no money to put out - almost all material is already received in digital by the cable cos. They have to actually dumb it down (and use up BW) to NTSC for cable subs.

I worked in the DTH satellite industry (Primestar/DIRECTV/DISH) for many years. More than one "ma and pa" cable company was caught receiving their channels via a DTH service and then rebroadcasting those channels to their analog cable subscribers. Sometimes the channels would go off the air and viewers would see a DIRECTV customer service phone number. Viewers would call in and complain their cable was out. You can understand the confusion that created at the DIRECTV call centers.

There's no money to put out - almost all material is already received in digital by the cable cos. They have to actually dumb it down (and use up BW) to NTSC for cable subs.

Just to clarify this when the cable-co's receive digital signals from sat or local providers they are modulated in something other then QAM, so the cable-co's must demodulate them to baseband and remodulate them using QAM or analog at the proper frequency to fit the cable-co channel plan. And at this time (in baseband) you can add local insertion ads.

"More than one "ma and pa" cable company was caught receiving their channels via a DTH service and then rebroadcasting "

As in they were not paying for the rights to do this?

-DonB2

"More than one "ma and pa" cable company was caught receiving their channels via a DTH service and then rebroadcasting "

As in they were not paying for the rights to do this?

-DonB2


Exactly! They were just subscribed with a regular subscriber account! Some of them had a receiver hooked up for each channel that they 'carried' on their local cable system. They would just leave the receiver tuned to that channel and rebroadcast it locally.

HITS (http://www.hits.com/) (Headend in the Sky) provides a service like this to cable companies...but other cable companies tried to jury-rig their own solutions for a lot less. It worked...but was against the law.

Just to clarify this when the cable-co's receive digital signals from sat or local providers they are modulated in something other then QAM, so the cable-co's must demodulate them to baseband and remodulate them using QAM or analog at the proper frequency to fit the cable-co channel plan. And at this time (in baseband) you can add local insertion ads.
For an ATSC signal the cable co just has to transcode to QAM - which I assume is simpler than demod/remod. Same for a signal that they have in its original MPEG2 form (sat).

MorrisonHiker,

You answered my second question that I was just about to post. And that question was if the Mom and Pops would have to have a separate dish account for each channel going out to the customers and you answered that for me.

Thanks,

Don

MorrisonHiker,

You answered my second question that I was just about to post. And that question was if the Mom and Pops would have to have a separate dish account for each channel going out to the customers and you answered that for me.

Thanks,

Don

Not a separate account for each channel, but at least an additional receiver for each channel, yeah. They didn't necessarily carry ALL their channels this way...but it was a cheap (and illegal) way for them to carry some of the premium and sports channels.

Any news yet on when these things are coming out? I just purchased a JVC HD monitor (no tuner) and I think it and a DR787T may be becoming very good friends in the near future. :)

I got such a Canned response from LG the last time I emailed them that I have no interest in checking a second time.

But from other posts I am hearing April May time frame for most DVD ATSC recorders. This includes Panasonic and Samsung.

-Donb2

Try this web site. Says March.

http://www.proaudioinc.com/2007_Full_Line_Brochure_LoRes.pdf

LG won't have any recorders with hard drives? :(

LG won't have any recorders with hard drives? :(

So far no one has announced a 2007 recorder with a hard drive for the North America/USA market :-(

There is the expensive BluRay thing from Sony but that's more of a PC hybrid and 4-figure price...

Isn't this Hard drive as found on another post-but not LG:

a8vdeluxe

Quote:
Originally Posted by a8vdeluxe
Why buy just a tuner when you can get this.......http://www.pvrwire.com/2007/01/31/t...media-streamin/

Apparently has no QAM, but is the future of home HD recorders.




Here's another link: http://www.engadgethd.com/2007/01/3...g-but-the-disk/

This blows away the simple DVD recorder/Tuner option!!!



-Donb2

The '...'s in your links are breaking them.

The '...'s in your links are breaking them.

I think he meant these units (http://www.engadgethd.com/2007/02/04/toshiba-produces-two-new-hd-dvrs/)

We highly doubt seeing these stateside anytime soon, if ever, but if the HD gods happen to smile upon us, we'll let you know.

Basically, just what I was asking for...sans the correct tuner (Japanese vs US)

Isn't this Hard drive as found on another post-but not LG:

a8vdeluxe

Quote:
Originally Posted by a8vdeluxe
Why buy just a tuner when you can get this.......http://www.pvrwire.com/2007/01/31/t...media-streamin/

Apparently has no QAM, but is the future of home HD recorders.




Here's another link: http://www.engadgethd.com/2007/01/3...g-but-the-disk/

This blows away the simple DVD recorder/Tuner option!!!



-Donb2


Oooh I didn't know about those two! Let me do some revisionist history to my previous post so it won't confuse new readers of this thread....

Their in-english Japanese/global website is is not updated with the new models, so we have to make do with the computer translations :-(

These some features I am <b>guestimating from the Japanese computer translation</b>:
* dual-tuner models or it can record two digital programs at the same time; not sure!
* -R/-RW/-R DL/-RAM, HDMI
* high prices,
* 39 hours on the RD-S300, 78 on the RD-S600, using 17mbps in TS mode (???) with terrestrial digital.
* advanced automatic recording with learning function - maybe Series and finding similar programs based on what you record (perhaps similar to TiVo?)
* "magic chapter" function - have no clue what this is; it looks like it may put chapter marks based on change of scenery in the video?? http://64.233.179.104/translate_c?&u=http://www3.toshiba.co.jp/hdd-dvd/products/lineup/magic.html
* VR mode on both DVD-RW and DVD-R DL and DVD-R even
* mpeg2
* CPRM
* the webpage has two remote controls per model ?!?!!? http://64.233.179.104/translate_c?&u=http://www.toshiba.co.jp/about/press/2007_02/pr_j0102.htm


Some funny computer translations
* Knitting machine and video mode (LOL)
* we cannot recommend the mothballing to HDD
* they translate "record" to "videotaped" even though they talk about DVDs/HDDs.

That Toshiba at 1/3 the price would be an attractive unit.

For an ATSC signal the cable co just has to transcode to QAM - which I assume is simpler than demod/remod. Same for a signal that they have in its original MPEG2 form (sat).

Actually most do demod and remod this to place the channels on the frequency plan of the local head end and to insert local commercials and news etc.

I have been to many cable-co head ends and this is what I have seen.

Nice. Thanks for the feedback. If the DR787T hits anywhere under about 200 bucks, I'm on it. Hopefully should be around that range, I think. Can't wait. :D

Nice. Thanks for the feedback. If the DR787T hits anywhere under about 200 bucks, I'm on it. Hopefully should be around that range, I think. Can't wait. :D

Lost in Translation. I think that was a movie too.

My opinion is that it will probably never be $200.

I just saw several models with ATSC tuners available for pre-order on J&R's site. There is even a picture of one from Samsung. Prices start at $179! I am definitely waiting now before my next recorder.

Only 480p.

Lost in Translation. I think that was a movie too.

My opinion is that it will probably never be $200.
You can never say never in electronics, but it is very unlikely a unit in that format will be under $200 within 3 years.

Manufacturers have been selling HDD DVD-recorders with digital tuners for some time in Europe, especially the UK (click here (http://www.panasonic.co.uk/dvd-recorders/index.htm), here (http://www.home-entertainment.toshiba.co.uk/consumer/products.nsf/pages/dvd-dvdrecorders-rd-85dt?opendocument) and here) (http://www.pioneer.co.uk/uk/products/42/125/501/overview.html) ; this is not something new.

So unless there is some problem selling them in the US/Canada, I expect we will see them here soon.

Only 480p.

You expected to be able to fit any HD programming on a standard DVD (4.7GB)? Of course only 480p, no one here was expecting different...not if it had a hard drive, I would expect to be able to record to the hard drive in HD.

This one (http://www.jr.com/JRProductPage.process?Product=4157183) will be great for my grandparents. They live out where OTA / Satellite is the only option, on a fixed income -- so OTA is the only choice. This will get rid of their VCR, DVD Player, ATSC Tuner and switch box all with one unit :D

Actually, its only 480i - in accordance with the DVD spec. Daveinleeds is confused by erroneous information in an online product description and apparently does not understand practical limitations to recording to SD DVDs.

So Phillips, Samsung, and Panasonic are all incorrect that they use 480p. Yeah, Who's confused?

So Phillips, Samsung, and Panasonic are all incorrect that they use 480p. Yeah, Who's confused?

I still say YOU are confused.

They may OUTPUT in 480P but they certainly don't record at 480P or accept a progressive input (without downconverting) because the DVD Video standard spec is 480i (even commercial DVDs are recorded at 480i and are upconverted by players to 480p) so, "yeah" you are the one who is apparently confused, unfortunately likely due to erroneous claims and product literature put out by the marketeers of the aforementioned products. It's not uncommon for the non-technically inclined marketeers to get the playback and recording specs for these DVD recorders confused. If you think about it, a DVD HAS to be encoded in interlaced mode to allow it be viewable on non-progressive displays which comprise probably more than 90% of the displays in existance today.

But don't take my word for it.

Check out the DVD FAQ at http://www.dvddemystified.com/dvdfaq.html, especially sections 1.10, 3.4, and 3.8 so you can be a little more knowlegdeable regarding how a DVD is recorded and less subject to buying into the manufacturers erroneous claims and intentionally confusing/misleading hype.

Good luck!

This one (http://www.jr.com/JRProductPage.process?Product=4157183) will be great for my grandparents. They live out where OTA / Satellite is the only option, on a fixed income -- so OTA is the only choice. This will get rid of their VCR, DVD Player, ATSC Tuner and switch box all with one unit :D

Nice find. That (Samsung DVDR357 DVD Recorder and Player and VHS VCR Combo)
looks almost like the hoped-for "one box" solution. I wonder: will it output in HD, even if it can't record in HD, or will I still have to have my separate HDTV receiver for that? (a two-box solution).

Nice find. That (Samsung DVDR357 DVD Recorder and Player and VHS VCR Combo)
looks almost like the hoped-for "one box" solution. I wonder: will it output in HD, even if it can't record in HD, or will I still have to have my separate HDTV receiver for that? (a two-box solution).

One would think that it would output HD since it has an HDMI connection, but we'll see.

I just looked closely at a nicely packaged in Black Samsung VCR DVD recorder combo at Target but it did not have ATSC tuner.

-DonB2

DVD recorders with ATSC tuners are not out yet. Should be available in a few months.

I just hope that all the issues I have read and experienced with my previous recorder are resolved prior to April release.

Incompatibility of recording media and failure to complete timed recordings are the biggest issues.

I have only owned the around $100.00 DVD recorders maybe the more expensive name brands are more reliable.

Specifically the Coby and Lite On DVD recorders appear to have plenty of issues.

-Donb2

Making coasters is not reserved to low end units. You just have to use the right media.

The addition of digital tuners is unlikely to have any affect on DVD recording issues.

DVD recorders with ATSC tuners are not out yet. Should be available in a few months. A couple are already available for pre-order at JandR. See this thread for more info: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=791417

I was making some pretty good coasters with Verbatim which I thought was a pretty good name. I got 2/3's of the way down in the stack and it got so none of the rest would work.

-DonB2

It is now March 7th. I need to make a trip to Best Buy and see what ATSC there is out there.

-DoNb2

It is now March 7th. I need to make a trip to Best Buy and see what ATSC there is out there.

-DoNb2

I was at Fry's and there were zero (0) on the shelf with ATSC tuners, although all of the NTSC tuner models were on clearance (red tag)

stay away from that Samsung mentioned above,they've proven time and time they don't know how to make a good reliable dvd recorder.

It is now March 7th. I need to make a trip to Best Buy and see what ATSC there is out there.

-DoNb2Save yourself the trip and do a search on the internet. Pickings are slim so far.

It is now March 7th. I need to make a trip to Best Buy and see what ATSC there is out there.

-DoNb2
I just stopped by after dinner. The Best Buy in Woodbridge, NJ has at least one model of Digital Tuner DVD Recorders. The have the LG DC787T, but it's not on display. They had 3 of them sitting on a cart waiting for the workers to move them around. I asked the kid working there if they had them out, and apparently, they just came in today. Price was $230.

As far as specs, the one interesting thing I saw on the box was DVD+R DL support. I saw no mention of TVGOS. There was something about LG connect or something like that. Also, something about storage via USB.

ftaok

I just stopped by after dinner. The Best Buy in Woodbridge, NJ has at least one model of Digital Tuner DVD Recorders. The have the LG DC787T, but it's not on display. They had 3 of them sitting on a cart waiting for the workers to move them around. I asked the kid working there if they had them out, and apparently, they just came in today. Price was $230.

As far as specs, the one interesting thing I saw on the box was DVD+R DL support. I saw no mention of TVGOS. There was something about LG connect or something like that. Also, something about storage via USB.

ftaok

It would be nice if that means it can download the guide via the internet and allows you to plug in your own USB HD. Yeah, wishful thinking!

As far as specs, the one interesting thing I saw on the box was DVD+R DL support. I saw no mention of TVGOS. There was something about LG connect or something like that. Also, something about storage via USB.

According to LG's Press Release (http://us.lge.com/aboutus/pressdetail/detail/press_TV%7CAudio%7CVideo_298_1.jhtml) the USB Media Host port "can play MP3, WMA or JPEG music and photo files."

Roger Lococco ,

Do you have better faith in the LG line of DVD recorders.

I am very sensitive about reliability of DVD recorders at least the generic brands although I have also read about issues like I have experienced with name brand DVD recorders.

-DonB2

"Save yourself the trip and do a search on the internet. Pickings are slim so far. "

On the news this morning there was mention of some online consumer complaints with Best Buy on line.

I wish I had heard what the complaints were.

-DoNB2

"Save yourself the trip and do a search on the internet. Pickings are slim so far. "

On the news this morning there was mention of some online consumer complaints with Best Buy on line.

I wish I had heard what the complaints were.

-DoNB2
I heard a blip last night. I don't have the full story, but the jist of it is this:

Some Best Buy stores had their PCs set up with an IntRAnet version of BestBuy online. These prices differed (as well as special deals) from the regular Internet version of BestBuy online.

So when a person checked a price on a computer in the store, they were directed to the Intranet site and had prices and deals similar to the actual store, when in fact, if they had accessed the internet site, they could have gotten better pricing and better deals.

ft

ftaok .

Thanks!

-DonB2

Roger Lococco ,

Do you have better faith in the LG line of DVD recorders.

I am very sensitive about reliability of DVD recorders at least the generic brands although I have also read about issues like I have experienced with name brand DVD recorders.

-DonB2
I think LG might be slightly better,however they also were the manufacturer of that low priced Insignia(Best Buy house brand) dvd recorder,that model had reliability problems.Also I have a Zenith(LG owns the brand,and sells their products under that name) vcr that sucks,lol.
from my own personal experience,the PYE90DG I bought at CC is working like a champ(Like everyone else,I thought it would be a piece of junk,but it's been working flawlessly and problem free so far).

Roger Lococco,

Lites on and Coby are two I refer to as Generic that have major record issues.

In thepast when I recorded with the Coby the picture quality off of NTSC was very very good and much better than I get with a VCR. But it started having issues with recognising blank DVD's and failures during finalize adem nauseum.....

I could never be sure that a Coby recording I made would be available when I went to watch it. So for now I am back to my steam powered VCR using video input from my SAMSUNG ATSC tuner which produces tolerable timed recordings for me.

-DoNb2

...I could never be sure that a Coby recording I made would be available when I went to watch it. So for now I am back to my steam powered VCR using video input from my SAMSUNG ATSC tuner which produces tolerable timed recordings for me.

-DoNb2
All the more reason to have a recorder with a hard drive. :)

All the more reason to have a recorder with a hard drive. :)

You beat me to it Chuck, I was going to say exactly the same thing. I was thinking of buying a DVD recorder with ATSC tuner, but after reading this thread, I think I will wait until someone comes out with a combo DVR/DVD recorder with ATSC tuner (preferably Panasonic as I gather they have consistently been getting good reviews so far).

"All the more reason to have a recorder with a hard drive. "

Sounds good except this thread is titled:

"DVD recorders with digital tuners are coming!"

not

"DVD/DVR recorders with digital tuners are coming!" :D

Maybe I should look for "VCR/DVR recorders with digital tuners are coming" :)

In seriousness I would not pass up a ATSC DVR recorder. My goal was to free up the last slot in my cabinet that presently houses the Steam Powered VCR with a Combo VCR/DVD ATSC recorder. Not sure if I could afford a unit with hard drive also.

-DonB2

You beat me to it Chuck, I was going to say exactly the same thing. I was thinking of buying a DVD recorder with ATSC tuner, but after reading this thread, I think I will wait until someone comes out with a combo DVR/DVD recorder with ATSC tuner (preferably Panasonic as I gather they have consistently been getting good reviews so far).
Panasonic's 2007 models will not have hard drives. :(

AND !!!! I keep juggling with how much I would be willing to spend for a DVD/DVR ATSC recorder compared to what I would spend for say the Dish Dual HD recorder and a HD suite package.

If I am going to drop 4 bills on an OTA ATSC only DVD/DVR recorder maybe I would be better off putting the money into Dish or Direct DVR and service for a couple of years.

Just a thought !!!

Not trying to start something here.

Just trying to compare the outlay of money with the outlay of money :mad:

If the DVD ATSC OTA recorder is around $250.00 I probably would not even be making the compare.

-DonB2

Panasonic's 2007 models will not have hard drives. :(
.... for the models announced so far.

With the subsidized prices from both sat and cable cos, in these times of great technology change it makes little sense to invest a lot of money in hardware. OTOH if you are a basic cable sub or an OTA TV viewer, a DVDr, even a more expensive one with an HDD ($300?), can have a payback period (compared to prog+DVR fees) of as little as a few months.

Roger Lococco,

Lites on and Coby are two I refer to as Generic that have major record issues.

In thepast when I recorded with the Coby the picture quality off of NTSC was very very good and much better than I get with a VCR. But it started having issues with recognising blank DVD's and failures during finalize adem nauseum.....

I could never be sure that a Coby recording I made would be available when I went to watch it. So for now I am back to my steam powered VCR using video input from my SAMSUNG ATSC tuner which produces tolerable timed recordings for me.

-DoNb2
I record from an ATSC tuner too(Ratshack Accurian),I can recommend that you get a PYE PY90DG(made by Funai) if it goes on sale at a good clearance price,anything below 79.99.It gets excellent user reviews at CC,and would be vastly superior to a vcr.Of course we're all wondering how long it will last,but I figure if I get 3-400 good burns with it,I would have gotten my money's worth.Also seems to finalize very quickly,less than 2 minutes,I've only used Verbatim +Rs.

If I am going to drop 4 bills on an OTA ATSC only DVD/DVR recorder maybe I would be better off putting the money into Dish or Direct DVR and service for a couple of years.

Or just get a Tivo.. (including a DirecTivo..) and send the output to your existing hard drive/DVD recorder. I'm doing that with my S3 tivo, but I'm getting artifacts on the QAM channels on cable (not surprising since there are a kajillion splitters on the cable in our house -- half a kajillion in my room alone). I should probably pony up the dough to try an antenna to see if I can get any OTA HD channels. If anybody has an indoor antenna they want to get rid of cheap, PM me.

PYE PY90DG(made by Funai) ,

Thanks!

-DonB2

PYE PY90DG(made by Funai) ,

Thanks!

-DonB2
Huh? Digital Tuner? for $80...don't think so. It doesn't even have digital audio out...talk about a cheap POS.....true meaning of a glorified analog tuner VCR.

both DonB2 and I already have ATSC tuners,so I just recommended a very reliable(so far) recorder(from my own and many other's experiences).
Sometimes what might have been thought of as a POS turns out to be pretty good,case in point,the PYE and Polaroid recorders. :)
glorified VCR?that's exactly what people want-something that will function 99.9% of the time,most dvd recorders fall short of that ideal,these el cheapo but reliable Funais seem to have achieved that elusive goal. :cool:

both DonB2 and I already have ATSC tuners,so I just recommended a very reliable(so far) recorder(from my own and many other's experiences).
Sometimes what might have been thought of as a POS turns out to be pretty good,case in point,the PYE and Polaroid recorders. :)
glorified VCR?that's exactly what people want-something that will function 99.9% of the time,most dvd recorders fall short of that ideal,these el cheapo but reliable Funais seem to have achieved that elusive goal. :cool:

What confused me is that the title of this thread is " DVD recorders with digital tuners are coming!" and someone listed a recorder that doesn't have digital tuner. May be the greatest recorder since burnable DVD's, but it doesn't really have anything to do with this thread.

The fact that you can only output stereo sound (not digital (5.1, etc)) made me think that it is really a VCR with the tape replaced with a disc. At least with most others you get digital out which will allow you to have surround sound when playing back bought DVDs.

FYI, I'm with you and have 2 HD DVR's and an ATSC tuner / DVD combo...so my old E80H plays its role only when I want to archive.

sivartk ,

Sorry :(


I just want to make sure that when I fork up the money for a DVD ATSC RECORDER that it "hopefully" will pass thru ATSC in HD 16:9 format and downconvert HD 16:9 to also fit on a DVD and than upconvert it back to 16:9 Quasi HD. And that it will look descent on my Pioneer 43 Inch Plasma. I would also expect said recorder to have Surround Sound output. It would also be nice if said recorder had a built in upgradeable Hard Drive DVR recorder.

Component In would be nice as well as "Component out which is a must" since HDMI has plenty of issues.

If it does not have a Hard Drive DVR recorder it darn well better have a very reliable DVD recorder and software to work smoothly for finalizing and so on.

I just have this fear that I will fork out $300.00+ for a DVD ATSC Recorder with downconvert and upconvert and I will be unhappy with it and find that it fails to finalize, does not recognize a DVD that it just recorded the previous night , locks up for some unknown reason requiring the pulling of power plug with loss of set up, failure to recognise blank DVD in drive for timed recording when the DVD in the drive is a perfectly good one and my el' inexpensive Dell Laptop has no trouble recognising this blank DVD so why does the DVD recorder have trouble recognising it?

And does not run so hot that I could cook a Cony on it.

And that is how I basically rambled down to asking Roger what reliable DVD recorder he had in hopes that this company model "PYE PY90DG" would eventually come out with a DVD ATSC upconvert/Downconvert HD recorder that I would be happy with.

Again sorry to confuse you,

-DonB2

DonB2, I figure if anyone is going to come out with a recorder that meets your requirements, it will be Panasonic. They aren't making any HDD models this year, but they do have a history of making quality products. We will have to wait and see though.

Roger.

I was thinking about that on my ride in this morning. I need to wait until later in the summer to at least read some reviews on which manufactures are producing the most reliable equipment.

-DoNB2

My local Raleigh NC Best Buy near South Point Mall just got in the LG digital DVD/VCR recorder although they have not yet put it on the shelf.

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=8251535&st=lg&type=product&id=1169512521998

or

http://*******.com/2zp9zg


Reg. Price: $299.99
You Save: $15.00Sale: $284.99


-DoNB2

I saw one today an Worst Buy and wasn't impressed with the unit. $230 and only composite input, no real styling...although I like the black. Just ho-hum...I don't see them selling that many as a "walk buy" doesn't grab your attention...if it does, the $130 Samsung sitting right next to it that will do the same thing, probably will move your eyes quickly (especially if you don't know or don't need the ATSC tuner)

sivartk,

This is what they posted on the Best Buy web site:

Inputs: analog audio, composite video, component video


Outputs: analog audio, HDMI, optical digital audio, coaxial digital audio, composite video, S-video, component video


As you see it says Component IN If you saw a store price of $230 are we talking the same unit?

The one I am talking about is the:

LG Multiformat DVD-R/-RW/+R/+R DL/+RW/RAM Recorder/VCR Combo

Model: RC797T

-DonB2

sivartk,

This is the one I think you are referring to. It is $230.00 and is not a VCR/DVD combo and I do not see where it has Component Input.

LG Multiformat DVD-R/-RW/+R/+RW/+R DL/RAM Recorder

Model: DR787T

I would not want this model either!!!!!

-Donb2

Model: DR787T

I would not want this model either!!!!!


That is the one I saw, but their sign clearly stated that you could record digital TV signals...I didn't pay that much attention to the model numbers on the units and sign, but obviously they had something wrong....typical of them :rolleyes:

sivartk,

This is what they posted on the Best Buy web site:

Inputs: analog audio, composite video, component video
...
Model: RC797T

-DonB2

This is an error. I've physically seen them. they do not have component input.

I just looked closely at a nicely packaged in Black Samsung VCR DVD recorder combo at Target but it did not have ATSC tuner.

-DonB2

Here is one that was the Consumer Electronics Show. They haven't released it yet.

http://hometheater.about.com/od/ontheroadatces/ig/CES-2007---Photo-Gallery/Samsung-DVD-Recorder-w--ATSC.htm

My three year old Motorola HDT100 ATSC tuner died recently and I needed a replacement. I was thinking of buying just a replacement tuner but saw the DR787T at Best Buy which records DVD's as well as having the ATSC tuner so I bought that. Overpriced at $229.99 but works great. If anyone is interested, I wrote an extensive review here:

http://www.epinions.com/content_334627114628

I saw one today an Worst Buy and wasn't impressed with the unit. $230 and only composite input, no real styling...although I like the black. Just ho-hum...I don't see them selling that many as a "walk buy" doesn't grab your attention...if it does, the $130 Samsung sitting right next to it that will do the same thing, probably will move your eyes quickly (especially if you don't know or don't need the ATSC tuner)


Good point. What if you need the QAM tuner? My tuner in my Panasonic 60u is horrible. I keep waiting for DVR/DVD burner to come out with the tuner.

Good point. What if you need the QAM tuner? My tuner in my Panasonic 60u is horrible. I keep waiting for DVR/DVD burner to come out with the tuner.

The tuner in the LG DR787T decodes QAM as well as NTSC/ATSC.

The tuner in the LG DR787T decodes QAM as well as NTSC/ATSC.


That is what I hear. Now if they will just come out with a DVR....not tivo....that has this feature.

My three year old Motorola HDT100 ATSC tuner died recently and I needed a replacement. I was thinking of buying just a replacement tuner but saw the DR787T at Best Buy which records DVD's as well as having the ATSC tuner so I bought that. Overpriced at $229.99 but works great. If anyone is interested, I wrote an extensive review here:

http://www.epinions.com/content_334627114628

I think there are other comments in the 'First ATSC/QAM tuner recorder LGDR78T' thread that indicate this HD recorders DOES NOT PASS an HD signal out. It will allow you to pull in an HD signal and down rez it to copy or output but does not pass the HD signal out even through the HDMI port. What you get is a downrezzed and then uprezzed signal out that port.

That is what I hear. Now if they will just come out with a DVR....not tivo....that has this feature.


That's exactly what I want. I don't think anyone is making one yet. The AutumnWave Creator will let you record HDTV to a PC's hard drive, with the recording in full HD, but what I want is a stand alone unit that will record to a hard drive with no monthly subscription fee. My PC is in a different room from my TV, and I don't want to buy another PC just to record TV. So I bought the LG DR787T DVD recorder instead.

All of the HD DVR's with QAM tuners have been discontinued (other than TiVo and Cable Company boxes). Luckily, I was able to pick up two Sony DHG-HDD250's for under $300 total :D

All of the HD DVR's with QAM tuners have been discontinued (other than TiVo and Cable Company boxes). Luckily, I was able to pick up two Sony DHG-HDD250's for under $300 total :D

I guess the only place I can find one of those now is on Ebay hugh??

I think there are other comments in the 'First ATSC/QAM tuner recorder LGDR78T' thread that indicate this HD recorders DOES NOT PASS an HD signal out. It will allow you to pull in an HD signal and down rez it to copy or output but does not pass the HD signal out even through the HDMI port. What you get is a downrezzed and then uprezzed signal out that port.


Is this true??? I would have been really dissapointed if I had braught that home and it passed an downrezzed picture.

Welcome to last week.

Is this true??? I would have been really dissapointed if I had braught that home and it passed an downrezzed picture.

Yes, and there has been alot of speculation on whether any of the new recorders coming out will be any different.

I read the specs that B Buy has posted in their website for the RC797T. In one part of the Specs it says that the unit has Component IN. But in another section of the Specs it says it doesn't even mention it has it.

LG Multiformat DVD-R/-RW/+R/+R DL/+RW/RAM Recorder/VCR Combo

Model: RC797T

Inputs: analog audio, composite video, component video


http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=8251535&st=lg&type=product&id=1169512521998

http://*******.com/2zp9zg

-Donb2

Inputs: analog audio, composite video, component video


Debunked in the thread for the model.

Not sure if you [DonB2] read this post http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10045853&&#post10045853 above, after your previous posts. The poster visually confirmed the 797 DOES NOT have component input. So that should put the speculation/confusion to rest or am I missing something? BTW - your second link appears to be broken.

Really helps to cut down on the thread noise if posters read the whole thread (or at least the posts since their last posting) or related threads before posting questions/issues that have already been settled. Not saying this necessarily applies here, but it appears to be the case - I could be wrong though, wouldn't be the first or last time...

(...biker beat me to it - ha!)

"This is an error. I've physically seen them. they do not have component input. "

Such a post as this does not tell me for sure that indeed the poster is referring to the 797 or is referring to the 787.

Keep in mind that sivartk was misled only a post or two before by the shelf model at Best Buy.

For some reason this site deletes tiny url . com I am not sure why.

I typically try to post the actual URL as well as tiny as sometime the actual URL can be too long.

I am sorry if I have offended the bikers and ferrai's of the world.

-Donb2

No offense taken and none intended towards you. You didn't acknowledge the previous posts so I wasn't sure if you had read them - hence the comment/assumption for which I was mistaken. But I had no way of knowing for sure because it appeared that the question had been settled previously AFAIWC.

When there is conflciting infromation regarding tech specs, I tend to err on the lower tech/cost side because that's your higher probability correct answer. In this case, component inputs are rare and cost more, so based on that plus purported first hand visual accounts and some forum consensus, I'm putting my money on lack of component inputs. I tried to put my eyes on one of these units but my local BB did not have them on display.

Component input mystery notwithstanding, doesn't look the ATSC recorder of my dreams in any event. Good luck on your quest for the truth in posted tech specs - truth/accuracy are attributes that are generally lacking in consumer electronics tech specs posted online so it does often take some time consuming detective work to figure out the answer.

Has anyone else seen any information on these

The other two models on display each featured an ATSC tuner. The RDR-GXD455 can record to double-layer DVD+R discs, while the RDR-VXD655 also offers bi-directional dubbing between VHS and DVD. (http://blogs.pcworld.com/staffblog/archives/003804.html)

Would be interesting to see if it passed the non-recorded HD signal.

I'm still looking for a DVD-R that passes HD signals. Obviously they record in SD, but if the unit has a NTSC/ATSC/QAM tuner (all three preferred), at least one of the units should be able to allow you to view live HD signals in their native resolution. Have any been released? I'm particularly interested in the new Toshiba units but I can't remember the exact model number right now.

krholmberg,

Bikers and ferrai is it ok with you two if I post info on the Toshiba models for this guy? Or do you consider this redundant since it appears in another AVS Forum post?

Anyway krholmberg,

This is what I have on Toshiba models and I don't know how super accurate it is:

Toshiba D-R550 - QAM - 230 - March - Alt 1 Alt 2 ATSC, QAM, NTSC
$229.99, April 2007)
Toshiba D-VR650 - QAM - VHS - 275 - March super-multi-format, VCR
combo unit, ATSC, QAM, NTSC, ($279.99, April 2007)

Toshiba's entry level D-R400 single deck DVD recorder offers HDMI with
upconversion to 720p, 1080i and 1080p. It also offers one touch
recording and a DV input. The step-up model, the D-R550, adds ATSC,
QAM and NTSC tuners.

The top of the line Toshiba D-VR650 Super Multi Drive DVD recorder +
VCR combination unit offers ATSC, QAM and NTSC tuners and HDMI with
upconversion to 720p and 1080i. In addition to recording and playback
of DVD-R/-RW/+R/+RW, this model also offers recording and playback of
DVD-RAM. The D-VR650 features Toshiba's high quality DVD recorder
capabilities and a 4 Head Hi-Fi VCR capable of high speed bi-
directional dubbing. For added flexibility and convenience to
consumers, Toshiba will also offer the D-VR600 which includes the same
features as the D-VR650 without the tuners.

So it appears that Toshiba will be selling 2 DVD recorders without
tuners. The D-R400, and the D-VR600 that adds VHS.


-DonB2

Well this still doesn't indicate if the Toshiba's will be outputting true HD signals.

...Obviously they record in SD, but if the unit has a NTSC/ATSC/QAM tuner (all three preferred), at least one of the units should be able to allow you to view live HD signals in their native resolution.

None so far -- look at some of the other threads - you'll see many of us are waiting to see if any of the recorders with ATSC/QAM tuners will passthrough native HD formats. The first ones (LG/RCA) don't.

It's very frustrating (as I'm sure it is for everyone). I have been looking at other threads, too, but unfortunately there aren't enough hours of the day to work and follow AVS thoroughly. I'm getting my first front PJ delivered later this month and really want to be a able to watch HD stuff on it. I'm uprgrading from small CRT TV's so I only receive analog cable... but I've heard with a QAM tuner I'd be able to watch the lower channels in HD for free since they are in the clear (and maybe a few others if lucky). Since I don't have a recording device (of any kind), I was really hoping to save a few buck and combine features. No sense in getting a DVD-R and a tuner separately if it isn't necessary. I could go always go for the Samsung DTB-H260F and a separate DVD-R, but I'd rather get both in one since I have limited rack space (and could save a little $$$)..

"but I'd rather get both in one since I have limited rack space (and could save a little $$$).. "

Same here. And I even wanted one with VHS also so I can put this combined unit in the same location that my steam powered RCA recorder use to take up. :mad:

-DonB2

It's very frustrating (as I'm sure it is for everyone). ... Since I don't have a recording device (of any kind), I was really hoping to save a few buck and combine features. )..
Me too!

I'm getting my first front PJ delivered later this month and really want to be a able to watch HD stuff on it. Since I don't have a recording device (of any kind), I was really hoping to save a few buck and combine features.

There are several of us in the same boat as you with the same wish list. I currently have 2 devices hooked up to my projector (Sony HD DVR and Sony DVD Player), but would like to be able combine them and save my rack space for amps. :p

I was just thinking... even if these come out with tuners that allow HD signals to pass unalterred if they aren't recorded... not all problems are solved. They will likely only have one NTSC/ATSC/QAM tuner, so if you're using a monitor or TV without an ATSC/NTSC/QAM tuner you won't be able to record one show while watching another. A second tuner will be necessary. Since that's the case for me, I think I'll get a standalone tuner and wait for a DVD-R/DDR device with the requisite NTSC/ATSC/QAM tuner that passes HD signals, records HD on the hard drive and downconverts only when recorded to a disk. Hell, in that case I might as well wait for HD-DVD-R or BD-R drives. Unfortunately cost really sets in then.

How would a setup like that work, though. If I have a stand alone tuner, I can't use it before or after one of these new DVD-R machines because the resolution will still be downconverted. If they aren't daisy chained, I supposed I'd have to split the signal and separately run it to each tuner, then run two HDMI's to the HDMI splitter. Add that to BD and HD-DVD players and life gets complicated. Hmm.

none of the current DVDR's have dual tuners, so I don't think many are looking for that at this point.

I was just thinking... even if these come out with tuners that allow HD signals to pass unalterred if they aren't recorded... not all problems are solved. They will likely only have one NTSC/ATSC/QAM tuner, so if you're using a monitor or TV without an ATSC/NTSC/QAM tuner you won't be able to record one show while watching another. A second tuner will be necessary. Since that's the case for me, I think I'll get a standalone tuner and wait for a DVD-R/DDR device with the requisite NTSC/ATSC/QAM tuner that passes HD signals, records HD on the hard drive and downconverts only when recorded to a disk. Hell, in that case I might as well wait for HD-DVD-R or BD-R drives. Unfortunately cost really sets in then.

How would a setup like that work, though. If I have a stand alone tuner, I can't use it before or after one of these new DVD-R machines because the resolution will still be downconverted. If they aren't daisy chained, I supposed I'd have to split the signal and separately run it to each tuner, then run two HDMI's to the HDMI splitter. Add that to BD and HD-DVD players and life gets complicated. Hmm.

My setup is strictly OTA and I think the most useful feature would be to record a program and watch another program from the disc. I understand this is possible when using DVD-RAM discs on some of the DVDR models (or, of course, get a unit with a hard drive in it).

For those of you with DVDRs that can record and play simultaneously how often do you use this feature for time shifting live programming and skipping commericals? Or do you find it's more of a novelty and find yourself watching HD programming live in 720/1080 resolution?

Like most others reading this thread I would really like one box that can act like an STB + DVDR. My 4th gen tuner (SIR-T451) has multipath issues and I'm hoping one of these new Samsung or Panasonics will fit the bill.

For those of you with DVDRs that can record and play simultaneously how often do you use this feature for time shifting live programming and skipping commericals? Or do you find it's more of a novelty and find yourself watching HD programming live in 720/1080 resolution?My DVD recorder is SD-only, but I find the time-shift feature to be really useful. I hardly ever watch live TV anymore - I either pre-record the whole thing and then come along to watch it after the fact, or I wait for the show to get a 15 to 20-minute head start and the watch it as it's recording, skipping the commercials on the way. And there are some informational programs (such as the news) that I often use the "1.5X speed" feature on - you can watch 60 minutes of programming in 40 minutes of time.

These are definitely more than gimmicks, in my opinion - they're valuable time management features. I can't image that HD would alter their value.

Which DVD-Rs have the time-shift feature?

Which DVD-Rs have the time-shift feature?I can't speak for the other manufacturers and models, but I know that the Pioneer 640 has it.

The chase-play feature for time-shifting is incredibly useful and the major reason I bought a DVDR. Like Sean, I rarely watch live TV anyore and chase-play is the only way I'll watch a football game -- I start to watch 40 min after it starts and catch up to real time by the end. However, I can't see it being all that useful on a non-HDD model. Single disk recorders simply don't have the recording capacity to be generally useful for chase-play -- 2hr at SP mode or suffer the degraded picture quality of 4hr LP mode; EP mode is a joke and unwatchable. After all you can't decide you want to watch something you recorded the other night when the unit us busy recording on a different disk. I suppose you could make due if you had a separate DVD player that played RAM, but what's the point. If you get into chase-play you'll be kicking yourself you didn't spend the extra money for a HDD equipped DVDR.

This may have been posted already, but if not, see the below that says all Panasonic DVD recorders will have digital tuners and some will have HDMI 1.3 as well.


http://news.ecoustics.com/bbs/messages/10381/338452.html

what good does HDMI 1.3 do if you can't pass through a true HD signal (Broadcast, HD DVD / Blu-Ray)?

From the Horses Mouth:

I have a couple of questions about the LG DVD/VCR Tuner model RC 797T.

1. Is there a downloadable user guide or owners manual available for
this device.

2. Can you tell me if it has Component IN ? The Best Buy site shows
that this unit had Component In but I am not sure.

3. Similar to a STB with and ATSC tuner? Can I use the ATSC tuner
portion to view HD 720P or 1080i signals on my HD TV via the Component
Out cables?

-Thanks in advance

Reply below from LG:

Thank you for inquiring of LG Electronics.



Your owner’s manual / model specification sheet is attached. You will need the latest version of Acrobat Reader to open this pdf file.



According to our information, this unit does not have a COMPONENT INPUT. However the COMPONENT OUT will transmit your HD programming to your television. For high resolution DVD viewing, however, you must use the HDMI cable.



Please feel free to contact us with any additional questions or concerns. Thank you again for contacting LG Electronics.



Neil

E-mail Administrator

Customer Interactive Center

------------------------------------------------------------------------


BTW- I have the .pdf user guide that LG sent me if anyone knows how to attach it to this board. Well I figured it out but the .pdf is too large for this board to accept it.

-DonB2

This may have been posted already, but if not, see the below that says all Panasonic DVD recorders will have digital tuners and some will have HDMI 1.3 as well.


http://news.ecoustics.com/bbs/messages/10381/338452.html

from Panasonic announcement ....

"While many of our competitors have introduced barebones units to avoid the expense of putting digital tuners in their models, we decided not to take that route,"

"Our research shows that a great many owners connect their DVD recorders to secondary TVs in bedrooms or dens and use the tuners in the recorders in lieu of buying and/or paying an extra monthly fee for a second or third cable box. "

"Basically, we felt it was important for all Panasonic DVD and combo recorders to continue to offer record-and-watch, and cable-box-free recording capability. Another reason and benefit to have the digital tuner built-in is the improvement in picture quality that is synonymous with digital."

Sounds like if anyone is going to pass a HD signal it will be Panasonic.

what good does HDMI 1.3 do if you can't pass through a true HD signal (Broadcast, HD DVD / Blu-Ray)?

HDMI 1.3 is not so important on a DVD player/recorder as a HD-DVD player or HD tuner/DVR, but it should provide a more stable connection, especially to other 1.3 devices, plus it is somehow capable of fixing or avoiding lip-sync, which is nice. It is just the current standard, so having it is a good thing.

from Panasonic announcement ....

"While many of our competitors have introduced barebones units to avoid the expense of putting digital tuners in their models, we decided not to take that route,"

"Our research shows that a great many owners connect their DVD recorders to secondary TVs in bedrooms or dens and use the tuners in the recorders in lieu of buying and/or paying an extra monthly fee for a second or third cable box. "

"Basically, we felt it was important for all Panasonic DVD and combo recorders to continue to offer record-and-watch, and cable-box-free recording capability. Another reason and benefit to have the digital tuner built-in is the improvement in picture quality that is synonymous with digital."

Sounds like if anyone is going to pass a HD signal it will be Panasonic.
If Panasonic is so tuned in to their customers' wants, how come they
are not releasing any DVD recorders in 2007 with hard drives?

If Panasonic is so tuned in to their customers' wants, how come they
are not releasing any DVD recorders in 2007 with hard drives?

After reading the manual, the other disappointment is that the recording of widescreen broadcasts will be done in 4:3 format for every medium (+/- R, RW)except -RAM.

It seems that previous Panasonic recorders have had this same fatal flaw which I would have thought would have been rectified with the inclusion of the ATSC tuners (to presumably record your digital 16:9 signal).

Does this make any sense whatsoever? Is it really so technically difficult to design a recorder to pass the anamorphic flag so that the image can be viewed correctly on any television (4:3 or 16:9).

Why can't anyone get all of these things right?

Does this make any sense whatsoever? Is it really so technically difficult to design a recorder to pass the anamorphic flag so that the image can be viewed correctly on any television (4:3 or 16:9).

Why can't anyone get all of these things right?I am willing to bet there was little internal design of these 1st gen DVDR's. I have posted before that the quickest route to market for these would be to take last years model, pop out the NTSC tuner chip and put in a pin-for-pin replacement ATSC/NTSC tuner chip that outputs exactly the same -- 480i. A couple small changes to the firmware and a redesign of the box to make it look like a "new" model and you're done.

Don't expect these 1st gen units to do any more than last years models -- i.e. HD pass through -- and it looks like they probably carry over last years warts.

Well unless I am misreading the email I got back from LG that I posted yesterday it appears that the RC797T does pass HD to TV. But you need to do it with the HDMI out.

-DonB2

Well unless I am misreading the email I got back from LG that I posted yesterday it appears that the RC797T does pass HD to TV. But you need to do it with the HDMI out.

-DonB2

That seems to be the industry trend with HD ouputs. The studios want to avoid the "analog hole" that might allow someone to record an analog HD signal. Not that the real pirates will be stopped by that, but the casual copier will have their fair use rights severely limited.

DonB2

My read of LG message is pass through HD is available on componet but recorded "HD", down rez - up rez, is only available on HDMI. Or did I miss read him? What does the manual say?

John

Well unless I am misreading the email I got back from LG that I posted yesterday it appears that the RC797T does pass HD to TV. But you need to do it with the HDMI out.

-DonB2If you got that from the EMAIL response you posted above, you must be an accomplished mind-reader. Let us know if there is any definitive information in the user manual they sent you.

"If you got that from the EMAIL response you posted above, you must be an accomplished mind-reader. Let us know if there is any definitive information in the user manual they sent you. "

Why do you say that?

"However the COMPONENT OUT will transmit your HD programming to your television. For high resolution DVD viewing, however, you must use the HDMI cable."

How am I a mind reader from the above statement?

I just don't understand why so many posters on this forum are in a mindset that these ATSC recorders will not display HD programming on their TV's in the Tuner mode.

I do not see any evidence on this forum saying they won't pass HD.

Maybe there is something on the Panasonic site. I have not yet got there.

But please all you posters who are positive that these ATSC DVD recorders can't display HD point me to the POST or the URL that specifically says they can't.

And yes, I will read through the manual and see what it says about the RC 797T.

-DonB2

"However the COMPONENT OUT will transmit your HD programming to your television. For high resolution DVD viewing, however, you must use the HDMI cable."

High resolution DVD? That right there tells me that it is simply up-converting the SD signal. Unless of course these can play back HD DVD's :p

"The component out will transmit your HD programming to your TV statement." What the heck does that mean? The digital feed of CSI is HD Programming, but that says nothing about the signal that it will pass through to the TV (SD?, HD?)

Since when does anyone here trust a first line tech support rep at a big company? :rolleyes:

"If you got that from the EMAIL response you posted above, you must be an accomplished mind-reader. Let us know if there is any definitive information in the user manual they sent you. "

Why do you say that?

"However the COMPONENT OUT will transmit your HD programming to your television. For high resolution DVD viewing, however, you must use the HDMI cable."

How am I a mind reader from the above statement?

I just don't understand why so many posters on this forum are in a mindset that these ATSC recorders will not display HD programming on their TV's in the Tuner mode.

I do not see any evidence on this forum saying they won't pass HD.

Maybe there is something on the Panasonic site. I have not yet got there.

But please all you posters who are positive that these ATSC DVD recorders can't display HD point me to the POST or the URL that specifically says they can't.

And yes, I will read through the manual and see what it says about the RC 797T.

-DonB2



I have one of these recorders - the LG DR787T. I don't have HDMI input on my projector, but I know for a fact that it will only output 480i/p over component.

No one on here is saying that the recorder will not pass the HD program to the TV or monitor, what people are saying is that it will not be the full resolution HD signal - either 720p or 1080i. The recorder downcoverts everything to 480i/p.

From someone else experience with the same model, it appears that what the HDMI output does is upconvert the already downgraded signal back to 720p or 1080i. This way even though your TV will recognize the signal as one of the high resolution formats, the original signal is already processed twice, and thus sufficiently degraded.

The conclusion of this process is based on the comparrison between the picture performence of the recorder's tuner, and that of the built in tuner of the TV, which is a true HDTV tuner.

The other indicator that these recorders do not output HDTV in their original format is the lack of DD5.1 audio output.

The manuals of these recorders are very vague in there specifications and outright avoid to give a sure answer one way or the other. To me this means that they are indeed downgrading the signal.

Any manufacturer would be proud of a superior product and would not hasitate to make it very obvious if a true HD reproduction was possible.

As it is now, many of these new products seem eager to purposfully deceive the buyers, if you don't pay close attention you may not even notice that some of them don't have ANY tuner at all, but still sell for a price higher than last year models.

As it is now, many of these new products seem eager to purposfully deceive the buyers, if you don't pay close attention you may not even notice that some of them don't have ANY tuner at all, but still sell for a price higher than last year models.

Especially since most of last year models are now highly discounted!

To All,

I am new to the group and look forward to learning more from you guys. I've tried to find an answer before I post this question, but no luck as of yet. The CFO at home just gave me the credit card (with a limit) and here is what I got:

Pioneer PDP-5070HD 50" Plasma
BOSE CineMate Surround System
LG DVD player/upconverter
HR20-100 HD/DVR

My question is, I have quite a few old family VHS tapes I would like to record over to DVD and was wondering what would be the best unit for that? I thought about taking back my LG unit and getting the new LG RC797T, but is that overkill?

Any help would be appreciated.

Hmmmmmm I'd definitely return the LG, but more importantly that Bose! You can do 10 times better for 10 times less.

Any suggestions would be helpful. I plan on making my returns in the next day or so.

Well you've obviously spent a ton of money on the plasma, so if I were you and had picked up a Pioneer TV, I'd look for a newer Pioneer receiver with HDMI switching, they are relatively inexpensive and loaded with features. Then get some good speakers, I'd choose JBL or Infinity, with Klipsch or KEF right behind them.

Definitely return the LG, terrible company, terrible quality. How important is DVD recording? You said you already have a HDD recorder. Why not think about Blu Ray or HD DVD to go with that plasma?

If you really want to transfer those home videos, make it a project, buy any DVD recorder or a combo, do your thing and return it. Right now DVD recorders are pretty sad little things and it doesn't look like it's gonna gett any better any time soon.

Love the name btw.

Actually got a good deal on the plasma, 2299.00, delivered.

Importance of DVD recording on a scale of 1 to 10, I'd say about a 4 or 5. What I have is about 50-60 older VHS tapes (births, weddings, etc) that I would like to get onto DVD. My HR20-100 HD/DVR is the latest model from D....TV, my satellite provider. Only records my satellite stuff.

I forgot about Infinity, I have an older pair in the basement rec room that have been great. I'll check out their newest stuff.

Hmmmmmm I'd definitely return the LG, but more importantly that Bose! You can do 10 times better for 10 times less.Maybe not 10 times better, but certainly as good for a lot less. And people think Sony is over-rated.

Let's see....

paper cones, no published specifications, room-filling prices for fm radio quality and we get BOSE!

I'd say anything's better than that.

Seriously, if you Toxic if you just want to transfer your tapes to DVD borrow a recorder and return it. If you want to keep one, try something other than the LG 797. I tried the LG 787, which is the same without the VHS and the picture was very poor, and on top of that it didn't even have a S-video input, which you'll definitely need to make good recordings from your satellite box.

DVD players are a very personal choice, and everyone will recommend you something different. Just for playback the new Toshiba HD DVDs are getting awesome reviews, but it seems very obvious that the format is not gonna last.

The new Samsung BDP1200 which is about to come out on the 5th of April, looks excellent on paper, but Samsung is not known for quality either.

Just for playback the new Toshiba HD DVDs are getting awesome reviews, but it seems very obvious that the format is not gonna last.

I guess you better tell the studios that...they are still making product for a format that isn't going to last. :p All I've read says there is no clear leader. I kind of want HD DVD to win because of what Sony tried to do with BetaMax (and lost). It seems they are trying the same thing with Blu-Ray...but back on topic now....

I guess you better tell the studios that...they are still making product for a format that isn't going to last. :p All I've read says there is no clear leader. I kind of want HD DVD to win because of what Sony tried to do with BetaMax (and lost). It seems they are trying the same thing with Blu-Ray...but back on topic now....

Originally I wanted Blu Ray to win, mostly because Philips is backing it. But now that Philips has disappointed me over and over again for the past 5 or so years, I don't really care much anymore.

The reason I don't see a way for HD DVD to survive is purely the number of hardware backers. There is just Toshiba and the RCA clones. There is no way that the other major companies are going to let just one take them down.

Either way I think ultimately they will both fail. At this point I don't think the improvement in quality will be enough to persuade most casual (non AVS members that is) consumers to shell out thousands of dollars for a new format.

It's just reminiscent to the SACD DVD-audio ordeal. They're both definitely superior to CD, but the truth is that CD is simply good enough for most people. Same with DVD - it is just good enough.

On top of that it looks like most people are more concerned with convenience and what everyone else is doing. People barely even buy CDs anymore.

While Toshiba and Sony fight it out, some 12 year old kid will come up with an HD compression that will make it possible to squeeze an entire movie in HD in a down loadable format. Apple will come up with another tacky gadget with a white cord, and no one will even remember there ever was Blu Ray or HD DVD. Best Buy will sell discs till they run out, and then call it a day.

In the mean time the studios will decide that it's about time to make movie watching a required monthly subscription based, lengthy contract related experience. And the only winners in the whole debacle will be the people in China, who will be selling illegal copies of the latest movies on Ebay.


It's true, I read it in Nostradamus.

He hasn't been wrong yet! I just got back from returning my LG and had the chance to listen to some Vienna Acoustic speakers. Now I need to convince the CFO at home here that she really needs to invest in some of these. Unbelievable sound! And they go with her furniture too!

The full name is actually "ToxinMaker, Chef of the CIA". From a previous life....

He hasn't been wrong yet! I just got back from returning my LG and had the chance to listen to some Vienna Acoustic speakers. Now I need to convince the CFO at home here that she really needs to invest in some of these. Unbelievable sound! And they go with her furniture too!

The full name is actually "ToxinMaker, Chef of the CIA". From a previous life....


What did you get in place of the LG?

Nothing, yet. After reading all the posts I think I may take your advice and just get a combo unit, record the old stuff and then return it. I'm gonna take a look and see what Pioneer has in the way of receivers like you mentioned. What's your take on Denon?

As for the DVD player, I'm still trying to decide. I do appreciate all the wonderful info I've received so far.

Denon is by all means a wonderful brand. I've always found them a bit too confusing to use, and always way out of my price range.

The reason I suggested Pioneer is that most new HDMI equipped gear from the same brand has some kind of link that makes operation more integrated, and presumably easier. If you connect Pioneer TV and Receiver through HDMI you might get easier navigation, simultaneous power or component switching, menus, easier recording control, and who knows what else.

I'm about out the door with the Visa in hand!! I will let you know what I come across. Thanks again.

TM Out.

I'm about out the door with the Visa in hand!! I will let you know what I come across. Thanks again.

TM Out.


Lucky bas****!

Denon traditionally has fudged more on their power ratings than Pioneer - who at times have actually been higher than the amount specified in the past - so you might wanna keep that in mind.

(Although, I really haven't compared the models from the last couple of years - things could've changed some.)

Well, last night was a bit fun. Since I already had the Pioneer plasma, I decided to go with the Pioneer VSX-917-K/S receiver...7.1 channel reveiver with HDMI video switching. For the VHS to DVD project I went with a Toshiba D-VR600 just to get everything recorded over. Got 30 days to get it done before I have to return it.

Still not sure about the Blu-Ray or HD DVD just yet. I spent most of my time looking at speakers. I really want some Vienna Acoustics, but don't know if the CFO is gonna back me on that one. I did listen to the Mythos series by Definitive Technology and they were a little more in my ballpark if I want to go with the Blu-Ray.

Thanks agains for the help and I 'll keep you posted.

Sweet! How much are the Veinna Acoustics if you don't mind me asking? I've never heard any of those. Do the Pioneers have any kind of "special" connection over HDMI? Very surious as to what it could do.

A friend recommended them to me and I would have to say that after listening to the Vienna Acoustics they would be more for a true lover of music rather than someone like me that likes to crank the volume during a great scene in a movie. When you crank the Viennas up a bit too much they sound a little harsh to me. For me, I would enjoy these most with my eyes closed, relaxing in a comfortable chair after a tough day at the office.

Pricewise, you're gonna shell out some $$$ for these babies. The ones I looked at were about 800.00 for a 100W powered sub-woofer and 1200.00 for a pair of 6.5 inch bookshelf speakers. I knew better than to even ask the CFO about these.

The sales guy then showed me some Definitive Technology speakers while viewing one of the fight scenes from Master and Commander. All I could say was "Oh Yeah!!!" I asked him to play the expressway chase scene from The Matrix and I was sold!!! I can get a sub-woofer and some bookshelfs for just about a grand going with these.

It would be easier to give you the link to read up on the Pioneer Receiver, but it doesn't seem to have anything special over the HDMI. Then again, it was late when I got home and I didn't really get to do much more than take it out of the box. 4:30 am was right around the corner for me.

http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/pna/v3/pg/product/details/0,,2076_310069809_424527396,00.html

More to follow with the speakers later.

it seems that none of the current dvd recorders have 16x9/4x3 (anamorphic/letterbox) recording capabilities. i have 2 toshiba dr2s that do this but theyre 2.5 yrs old. i cant find any new ones that do it. im almost wondering if the studios are working w/ dvdr manufacturers to keep the recorders at a 4x3 format thereby discouraging us from 'making' widescreen flics. comments?

the panny will record the widescreen flag, but only on a DVD-RAM disc (just like my old Panny does -- circa 2003) So, I wouldn't say it is a conspiracy, but rather a lack of time spent on development. As mentioned many times before, these units (2007 w/ATSC tuners) look like the old models with the digital tuner added.

I believe the LG records the flag as well.

Also, Wally-World has a Magnavox unit (actually a DVD recorder and a combo DVD recorder / VCR) that, although the manual says it won't record 16:9, a thread in another forum implies that it will actually record the 16:9 program "if" the display size is set to 16:9. That is, when you play it back on a 4:3 set, it's "squished". For my own purposes, this would be fine. I may have to pick one up and check it out.

For the most part, I'd say you're right, Travis. To quote someone famous... "Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by stupidity."

Never noticed that. Now I've got something to research tonight. Makes sense though.
What do you think the pirateers use to record their bootleg copies with? Or are none of them in widescreen?

Also, Wally-World has a Magnavox unit (actually a DVD recorder and a combo DVD recorder / VCR) that, although the manual says it won't record 16:9, a thread in another forum implies that it will actually record the 16:9 program "if" the display size is set to 16:9. That is, when you play it back on a 4:3 set, it's "squished".

Then it isn't recording the flag. It is recording the 16:9 aspect, but not the flag.

If it records the flag, then playback will be like the following (assuming your DVD player's output aspect matches the TV's aspect)

16:9 program on 4:3 TV will be letterboxed with DVD player output set to 4:3 letterbox ("bars" on top and bottom)
16:9 program on 4:3 TV will be full screen cropped with DVD player output set to 4:3 Pan and Scan
16:9 program on 16:9 TV will fill the screen
4:3 program on 4:3 TV will fill the screen
4:3 program on 16:9 TV will be pillar boxed (bars on sides)

With the flag at no time should you see a distorted image unless of course you DVD player is not set up correctly.

I can live with that. I'm not archiving long term, I'd just like to be able to timeshift the digital broadcast (yes, I'll not see the best quality) and be able to play it back in the original 16:9 format. I can easily adjust the aspect ratio of the TV if necessary.

According to the manual, it won't record 16:9. According to their support people it will record "whatever is displayed on the screen". Choices for video setup are 4:3 P&S, 4:3 w/letterbox or 16:9.

I think I'm going to have to buy one to find out for sure what the deal is.

Toxic, I did check out the receiver on Pioneer's web site. It says something about controlling Pioneer Plasma TVs "and a hoist of other added benefits", so you might wanna check it out. I am really curious, because I keep reading about it, but never actually got to try it. My own receiver (an older Philips) has something called "cinema link", that's supposed to control other compatible gear, but I never got a Philips TV with the feature.

The purpose of the 16x9 flag is.............?

The purpose of the 16x9 flag is.............?

To ensure that your burned DVD will play back the image properly on both a standard (4:3) TV and a widescreen (16:9) TV. This will prevent image distortion. In short, a widescreen program will play full screen on a 16:9 TV and the black bars will be added on a 4:3 TV. Without the flag, on a standard TV (4:3), the image is compressed horizontally....resulting in tall and skinny people :P

ToxinMaker,

Are you talking about the link that connects your Pioneer Plasma to your Pioneer receiver?

If so I am using that connection with my Pioneer set up.

-DonB2

I'm not pleased with SONY recently. I bought an RDR-VXD655 DVD recorder/VCR combo and it was DEFECTIVE right out of the box (not open box or refurb). ANY DVD, whether burned by me or a purchased movie, showed "digital artifacts" in the picture--black dots, yellow or green pixel-looking marks. When viewing an all-black screen on a DVD, it was like watching the opening of The Matrix with all the green pixels all over the screen. Seems like Sonys are now "Made in China" (were previously made in Japan or Malasia) and along with cutting costs on production, they're now using substandard electronic components in their products. BOO to Sony! You lost my "brand loyalty"!!
Other than my dud unit, I liked the features and the VHS portion of the unit worked wonderfully, and the digital tuner pulled in stations without a problem (even though it takes 20 minutes to scan through them on setup). The upconversion of the images wasn't bad. My only other gripe is that Sony does not use DVD-RAMs as RECORDABLE media. If you want to erase/rewrite, you're stuck with CD /-RWs, which are NOT as flexible for recording/erasing as DVD-RAMS. I'm buying a Panasonic DMR-EZ47K for a friend, and may just keep it. Panasonic DOES allow DVD-RAM recording, and I've always been pleased with my old Panasonic DVD/HDD recorder. My old Panasonic (DMR-E85H) has been a champ for three years, even though others with this model have had some problems (see afterdawn.com forums), never right out of the box!! I guess nothing is perfect, but I expected more from Sony.