Like many of you, I preordered my XBOX360 HDDVD add on and picked it up on Friday. We watched Corpses Bride first which is visually amazing and the sound was ok. I slippped in King Kong and put it on the T-Rex scene and noticed something with the audio, it just didn't seem full. Yes, there was decent bass but it just didn't sound right. I went back and played it again on Saturday at a higher volume and it was louder, but not fuller. I quickly popped in the DVD version in my Sony ES9000 DVD player to compare audio. The DVD version was fuller and sounded more solid.

I know everyone is wowed by the picture, as I am, but the audio decoding by the 360 seems to need some tweaking by Microsoft. (360 update?) I have a good audio setup and it seems to be revealing the add-on's slight flaw. :(

For background on my system:

Lexicon DC-1 PreAmp
Gemstone 200x7 Amp
Definitive Technology BP2002TL(Fronts), C/L/R 2500(Center), and 4 BPX Surrounds.
2 Definitive Tech PF1500 Subs
Sony Pearl 1080p projecor

Anyone else experience this?

From what I understand, the 360 only outputs Dolby Digital 5.1, not DTS like the standalone players, so the audio bitrate of the 360 is literally like 1/3 that of the standalone players. Without an HDMI or analog output, I don't think you can utilize Dolby Digital Plus or any of the newer formats which would most certainly be a noticeable improvement over the SDDVD version.

Hi scitek,

I know it shouldn't sound better than the SD DVD version, but what I'm hearing is worse. King Kong is in Dolby Digital 5.1 on the SD DVD and it sounds better. It seems the 360 is loosing some of the data when it is decoding it...

What sound format are you picking for King Kong? Pick the DD+ format and let the 360 downconvert it to 640 kbps.........unless you were doing that already.

The only audio option for Kong is DD+ and I have checked to make sure that it was selected. Hopefully someone else can comment.

This is anecdotal at best, but I do think that the Dolby Digital + soundtracks are set way low. And while it may seem like something is wrong, it definitely has to do with the Soundtrack and how it is produced.

I have Batman Begins that I purchased, minutes after picking up my HD-DVD Drive, and it has a Dolby True HD soundtrack that definitely is better than the Dolby Digital +.

I need to find my DVD Version of Batman Begins and listen to the different sound tracks to see which sound's best.

The XBOX 360 is downgrading the new soundtracks to Dolby Digital, but it is at 640KB which technically is a superior bitrate to the DVD Soundtracks.

Wikipedia states that the DVD Video, audio streams for AC3 and DTS are specced out as follows.

AC-3: 48 kHz sampling rate, 1 to 5.1 (6) channels, up to 448 kbit/s
DTS: 48 kHz or 96 kHz sampling rate, 2 to 6.1 channels, Half Rate (768 kbit/s) or Full Rate (1536 kbit/s)

They also have this to say about the Dolby Digital + sound stream.

As of 2006, HDMI 1.3 is the only means to transport a DD+ stream between two pieces of consumer equipment. The older and more widespread SPDIF-interface cannot provide the sufficient bandwidth for a Dolby Digital Plus stream (up to 6144 kbit/s).

To address the lack of availability of DD+ capable equipment, some decoder implementations will decode a DD+ bistream and re-encode it in a more common format (such as DTS 5.1.) The Toshiba HD-A1 and HD-XA1 HD DVD players are examples of this transcoding process. The downmix is potentially inferior to the original DD+ bitstream, but superior to standard AC-3.

=========

So following this, Microsoft would have had to do something really wrong for the sound to be worse (technically) than standard AC-3. I don't have any Discs that support the new DTS formats, so I don't know how they will sound. But usually the reason that DTS sounds better has not so much to do with it's bitrate (but it don't hurt) and more to do with how it was Mixed in the studio. They usually spend more time on the DTS and other higher bitrate soundtracks, as Dolby Digital has become something of the norm and so it is probably more cookie cutter. YMMV of course as to what you think sounds better, there are alot of variables that come into play here, speakers, receiver and the like.

I'm sure that now that the XBOX 360 HD-DVD addon is out, any problems that Microsoft will have to address will come to lite, fairly quickly. Many people have been researching HD-DVD and waiting on this device to test the waters as their first player. Mainly because they don't want to spend $500.00 to $1000.00 on a new DVD Player.

Hope some of this helps. I'll try to post more info once I find my Batman Begins and "The Thing" SD-DVD's.

But the real tests will be when a really big movie (superman returns maybe) on HD-DVD. You might want to rent MI:III as well that might provide some alternative evidence of the XBOX-360's audio capabilities.

But trust me when I say that the Dolby TrueHD soundtrack does sound pretty damn good, but I need to compare it to the DTS soundtrack that I believe is on my other version.

TimT

Tim, thanks for your comments. It is very strange that I find the SD DVD version of King Kong to sound superior to the HD DVD version. As you stated, 640 Kbit/sec should still sound better than SD DVD bit rate of 448kBit/sec. It sounds compressed and strange sounding. I'll have loud bass and then very little dynamics beyond that and it is missing some of the soundtrack vs the SD DVD version.

I'll be renting more HD DVDs and see if it continues to sound poor. I'm just hoping others can report their audio experiences as well. Currently everyone is enamored with the video side and have not mentioned much of the audio.

I'm not upset with my purchase as I am confident Microsoft can further tweak the add on's capabilities with updates to improve and enhance it. I just wish the sound was at least as good as standard DVD DD...

Lexman,

Decided to look into my Batman Begins SD-DVD box, as I had thought it was in the many piles of discs that I don't put away :(, and was surprised that it was back in its case.

So i popped in the SD-DVD into the XBOX-360, and set it at a normal level for DVD on my receiver.

Here is what I can tell just from playing one after the other.

1. SD-DVD Bass does seem a little stronger than the Dolby Digital + sound tracks on these current batches of HD-DVD's, at least compared in the case of Batman Begins.

2. However, the Dolby Digital + sound field is superior to the Dolby Digital 5.1 soundtrack on the SD-DVD, overall there is a clarity of sound that just is not present on the SD-DVD, and the sound mix is much more lively in the surrounds and certain sounds simply have more strength to them. I attribute this to the additional bandwidth that has been given to the soundtrack as I'm pretty sure they did not remix it for this release.

3. Volume level and Bass are definitely lower on the Dolby Digital + soundtrack in Batman Begins, and I'm sure this may be something that is true for all Dolby Digital + soundtracks. One thing I remember reading is that HD-DVD with regards to audio depends more heavily on your receiver. I believe Dolby Digital + tries to recreate the original soundfield exactly as in the theater, and that your equipment will have a much greater impact on the quality of audio you get out of it. This is not to say that the Dolby Digital + track sounded bad, as it did not and as I stated it is in fact clearer and a little punchier on overall audio, just not heavy on Bass.

4. Dolby True HD, sounds absolutely amazing compared to Dolby Digital 5.1, this is much closer to some of the high end DTS audio tracks, (and I have been known to purchase second copies of movies to get a good DTS track) On any movie you have TrueHD this will likely be what you will be listening to in the future.

I don't have King Kong to compare so I can't give apples to apples comparison there, but I can tell you that if you adjust your base accordingly I think you'll be surprised how good the Dolby Digital + track might be. Remember these are new audio formats, and I'm sure that as time goes one, Microsoft as well as others will help make these tracks sound their best.

I for one am very happy with the add-on's performance so far. The difference between SD-DVD and DVD is quite astounding, and I don't have 1080p, but I'm hearing more and more, how that is not quite as big a deal as some are making it out to be. Most people who have 1080p have paid a premium for it, and therefore are simply getting a better TV in general (most times dramatically better than their previous TV's) and that is most likely why they feel so strongly about 1080p.

I have yet to spend any real time with one of those sets, but I'm more than happy with 1080i for the moment.

Hope this info helps you and good luck with other HD-DVD's I would be interested in hearing what you thought of other soundtracks, especially any that have the new DTS HD formats.

TimT

well remember, it's take a DD+ 640kbps track (in most case) and Recompressing it at a quality level that we don't know

Take an BMP , compressed it to JPEG (STUDIO MASTER to DD Plus) at 100% than, the 360 takes that Lossy Track and Recompressed it to 640 again. Everybody knows who work in Photo or graphic that JPEG to JPEG is BAD.

In the case of TrueHD, you're going from Loseless to DD 640kbps so it's should sounds better than DD+ and it's normal.

I don't have a 360 addon , but on the A1, all HD DVD DD+ track sounds better than DD.

Even in Riddick the 1.5mbits DD + track sound better than the DTS 1.5mbits that they include. It's more dynamic and less directionnal..

i dont think its the hd add on thats lacking in audio its the 360 its self, i have notice this many of times before the hd add on was release. I have a little sony upscaling dvd player (NS75H) and it has been better than my 360 every since i got it & i have all the updates for my 360

I had the same problem a very flat 5.1 on Batman Begins....my SDVD also sounded better. I came up with the solution which made it sound 10x better. In the languages menu I changed the language to Dolby TrueHD (even though I dont have a TrueHD receiver) and bang, the change was evident. It seems that the downscaled TrueHD to 5.1 is better than the default 5.1....much better!

Has anyone else tried this ?

I had the same problem a very flat 5.1 on Batman Begins....my SDVD also sounded better. I came up with the solution which made it sound 10x better. In the languages menu I changed the language to Dolby TrueHD (even though I dont have a TrueHD receiver) and bang, the change was evident. It seems that the downscaled TrueHD to 5.1 is better than the default 5.1....much better!

Has anyone else tried this ?

I just got finished watching BB and even when selecting TrueHD, the sound was still very flat. I watched Aeon Flux and it never appeared to have any sound issues. I even had my receiver cranked to -4db. I normally watch at -10 or -12db with standard DVDs and even when watching Aeon Flux. I was kind of disappointed. I'll watch it again when I get my A2 player to really hear the TrueHD track rather than a down converted DD track.

The picture was really good just like Aeon Flux.

You'll definitely hear a difference with the A2 with the audio over HDMI. The audio from the 360 doesn't compare to the audio over HDMI from my A1. The DD+ does sound better than DD and with TrueHD DD doesn't come close. But for $200(or less) the HD DVD add on is an excellent deal and worth every penny!

Dam, why did the A2 have to drop the Analog 5.1 outs. If they were there I would have skipped the 360 addon and bought the A2. Well I guess $199 will be an ok stop gap till a universal comes out but it sure is annoying.

I purchased my HD drive on Saturday at GameStop. I called ahead from the golf course for them to set one aside for me. I'm glad I did because when I got there they said they only got 2 in.

I purchased the HD version of Apollo 13 and did some A/B testing with the SD version playing on my high-end Denon DVD player.

Video: I always thought Apollo 13 was one of the highest video quality DVDs I have seen but switching back and forth between the 2 I was absolutely amazed at the improved video quality from the 360 HD Player.

Audio: Even when cranking up the sound level from the 360 I still found the audio from the standard DVD to be much better. The 360 didn't offer the same punch and clarity I get from the standard disk.

I look forward to trying out the PS3 Blu-Ray player this weekend.

Are there receivers out there that will process the new HD audio formats?

i have noticed the same thing with my 360 hd-dvd player, in particular with MI3.....while dialogue and overall sound mix seemed better, the big punchy bass was gone, and seemed a little strained/muted during explosions, etc.

Glad to hear I'm not the only one to be hearing less than stellar audio on the add on. I'd actually be happy if it could sound equal to the SD DVD versions, but right now it is really lacking.

Microsoft, please provide an update to remedy this!!

It would have been nice if they at least did what the Toshiba does, convert the audio to 1.5 DTS (which most receivers should handle)

The sound difference is likely in the DACs and the 360 would need a hardware change to fix this. Also it sounds as if the 360 uses an amount of compression on the audio output - makes video games sound better especially with entry level systems like home theatres in a box. Dynamics come out better and the presentation is more in your face. However those that have higher end systems will lose out in soundstage and clarity. Unfortuneatly M$ knows we're in the minority
.
An update to allow compression to be turned right off would likely improve sound quality - but without 6 ch analog out or HDMI to an HDMI receiver I think the 360's audio quality will be less than that of the stand-alone players that have these features.

man, I didn't think this was going to be a deal-breaker for me especially since initial reports were saying that dvd's through the 360 add-on sounded BETTER than their SD dvd counterparts....but after a weekend with my 360 hd-dvd player i am so underwhelmed with the sound quality that I might get the toshiba player. there's definite lack of impact bass coming out of the digital audio of the 360 with the hd-dvd's and there's no way to manage the bass unless i boost in the receiver, at which point my other 5.1 DD sources will sound way too bass heavy at those settings.

i was really holding out for an hd-dvd player that could habdle multichannel sacd and dvd-a so i could replace my denon 1920 upscaling dvd player i use with hdmi, but without anything like that on the horizon i might just have to use a 6-channel analog switcher......

oleus

I just hooked up mine. The video is WAY WAY WAY soft compared to the Toshiba A1 and the sound if completely all borked up. I was hoping to cut out one DVD deck cause the A1 has a ton of issues too, but this is going back in the morning till MS can get it worked out. I recommend you guys avoid it for a few weeks.

I'm thinking of returning mine as well. I have a month from yesterday to decide. When do the H2's come in again......

Thank goodness for this thread! I thought I was going crazy. Hooked up my HD 360 add-on drive and watched King Kong. Looked freakin amazing, but the sound was strange. It was crisp and clear and the soundstage was seemless but something felt missing. The crunch of the dinosaur's jaws felt flat and the bass just wasn't there in certain scenes. I cranked my Sherwood Newcastle P-965 all the way to 0 db and it still sounded off. And I had recalled the SD version of King Kong sounding amazing in my Zenith DVD player.

I also played Mission Impossible 3. Again, I felt something was missing. Sounds were crisp, but gunfire and explosions sounded muted compared to the other sound effects. They just weren't vibrant enough.

Now, I probably need to recalibrate my pre-pro because I've been fiddling around with the settings so much lately. But the way sounds come out of my 360 worries me. It makes me feel like I need to upgrade my equipment. I hate feeling that way.

Is there an option in the 360 dashboard that produces compressed (or level volume) sound?

It seems strange that the audio would be an issue. I know this is a completely different compression scheme, but If you rip a 320kbps MP3 or an EAC, FLAC, etc. file down to 192kbps, it's still going to sound better than a 160kbps MP3.

Sounds like it might be a dynamic compression issue?

From what I understand, the 360 only outputs Dolby Digital 5.1, not DTS like the standalone players
The Xbox360 outputs DTS no problem, I'm not sure where you heard that. I got the HD-DVD player on Thursday and I'm very impressed with the video quality. I, too, noticed the lack of bass. The audio is exceptionally clear on Kong, Batman, and The Rundown, but the lack of bass was something I found odd. I corrected it (mostly) by activating the DDEX mode of my Yammy and playing with some levels.
Is there an option in the 360 dashboard that produces compressed (or level volume) sound?
Sounds like it might be a dynamic compression issue?
1. No... not yet.
2. That was my thought as well. I'm sure a software update will solve the issue.

well remember, it's take a DD+ 640kbps track (in most case) and Recompressing it at a quality level that we don't know

Take an BMP , compressed it to JPEG (STUDIO MASTER to DD Plus) at 100% than, the 360 takes that Lossy Track and Recompressed it to 640 again. Everybody knows who work in Photo or graphic that JPEG to JPEG is BAD.

In the case of TrueHD, you're going from Loseless to DD 640kbps so it's should sounds better than DD+ and it's normal.

I don't have a 360 addon , but on the A1, all HD DVD DD+ track sounds better than DD.

Even in Riddick the 1.5mbits DD + track sound better than the DTS 1.5mbits that they include. It's more dynamic and less directionnal..
DD+ isn't 640 kbps........it's 3000-6000 kbps.

EDIT: Just correcting my idiot self........I now know that there is such thing as a DD+ 640 kbps sountrack.

The sound difference is likely in the DACs.

I'm fairly certain the entire conversion process is digital until it hits your preamp or receiver.

I also found that the sound is lacking on this - Batman Begins sounded way subdued compared to any of my DVDs.

The Xbox360 outputs DTS no problem, I'm not sure where you heard that. I got the HD-DVD player on Thursday and I'm very impressed with the video quality. I, too, noticed the lack of bass. The audio is exceptionally clear on Kong, Batman, and The Rundown, but the lack of bass was something I found odd. I corrected it (mostly) by activating the DDEX mode of my Yammy and playing with some levels.

1. No... not yet.
2. That was my thought as well. I'm sure a software update will solve the issue.

no i don't think the 360 outputs DTS. if you select DTS from a dvd's menu, it still downconverts it to DD.

Exactly. It will indeed PLAY the DTS tracks but it will downconvert them to DD.
Sounds TOTALLY like major compression on the add-on. Like Broadcast, Cable Tv or the "midnight" mode on some receivers. Agreed it is probably for people with dinky home theater in a box settups... Will sound good for them. I was debating whether to get an Hd-a2 or a 360 and add on (and sell my old Xbox and some games to offset.) If the audio is indeed wonky on this, I'll definitely go for the Hd-a2...

:)

Exactly. It will indeed PLAY the DTS tracks but it will downconvert them to DD.
Sounds TOTALLY like major compression on the add-on. Like Broadcast, Cable Tv or the "midnight" mode on some receivers. Agreed it is probably for people with dinky home theater in a box settups... Will sound good for them. I was debating whether to get an Hd-a2 or a 360 and add on (and sell my old Xbox and some games to offset.) If the audio is indeed wonky on this, I'll definitely go for the Hd-a2...

:)

well, my cable dd 5.1 actually has BETTER bass than what i have heard on the 360 so far.

this is really disappointing. i'll probably use the player for the time being but get another hd-dvd player the moment they release one that plays SACD's.

is this ever going to happen?

Woah, Oleus! Your Cable sounds better?!?!?! Somethin' SERIOUSLY wonky with the add on then!!!!

Woah, Oleus! Your Cable sounds better?!?!?! Somethin' SERIOUSLY wonky with the add on then!!!!

the bass certainly does. not saying that anything else about it sounds "better" but i am definitely hearing better sound from my sd-dvd's in my Denon 1920. and DTS from that player absolutely smokes the 360....

I have not done a listening test to compare the sound but I will tonight. I don't have a high-end of a system though (Denon 2802). I watched the KK HD-DVD through the add-on and I thought it sounded fantastic.

I agree with roffels. I do not think this has to do with the DAC. The 360 is passing the digital signal. I believe that the problem might be how the 360 is converting the DD+ signal to DD.

What I plan on doing this evening this listening test:
1. Play the KK DVD on my Denon 1600.
2. Play the KK DVD on my xbox 360 (drive in console).
3. Play the KK HD-DVD on my xbox 360 HD-DVD add-on.

If I do the above I hope to find out if it is the 360 hardware or the way it is converting the signal. If the DVD sounds the same while played in the Denon 1600 compared to the xbox 360 I would guess that it is a software decoding/encoding problem for the add-on. Is my logic flawed?

This sounds like what a lot of people were complaining about when they got their first HD-DVD player...a lack of Bass. Just turn up the bass? My receiver allows me to turn up the bass for only the analog inputs (I have the Toshiba HD-DVD player), I understand thats a PITA for people without a receiver that can do that, but I'd rather change a few settings whenever I watched a movie than watch it with subpar bass.

I'm not losing bass as much as the overall sound quality is flat as others have descrbed. I believe the conversion process is losing info when its converting.

I too think its not a DAC problem because the downloadable trailers sound excellent. Much, much better than I'm getting from the HD drive

My test of Batman Begins on the addon showed the TrueHD DD encode was superior to the SD DVD version. A much more spacious soundstage with better steering and deep bass. In my system I find the addon works exceeding well.

My test of Batman Begins on the addon showed the TrueHD DD encode was superior to the SD DVD version. A much more spacious soundstage with better steering and deep bass. In my system I find the addon works exceeding well.

So wait, you set the sound output to TrueHD even though the 360 can only handle DD5.1? Please forgive my ignorance, but what is the point of that? Won't the 360 just output it as DD 5.1?

So wait, you set the sound output to TrueHD even though the 360 can only handle DD5.1? Please forgive my ignorance, but what is the point of that? Won't the 360 just output it as DD 5.1?

That is exactly what I did, and if you have a look in the addon FAQ it is mentioned there as well. It definitely makes a difference to the sound that is output in DD 5.1.

That is exactly what I did, and if you have a look in the addon FAQ it is mentioned there as well. It definitely makes a difference to the sound that is output in DD 5.1.

I selected TrueHD in the Audio menu for BB and it still sounded awfully flat. I mean normally I run movies at -12db on the receiver. Even Aeon Flux sounded good at -12db.

I played BB at -4db and it still didn't blow me away. My SD version sounded much better.

Well I noticed that the sound is really low compared to my regular player. I was dealing with it just fine until I popped in The Last Samurai HD-DVD. I had to crank my receiver way up just to hear the damn thing. I don't know what is going on, but I'm tempted to return this thing now.

The sound may be low but when turned up I prefer it over the equivalent SD sound. I have V4V on both formats and havent watched that, so I will listen a bit harder when I watch it.

Interesting. I have the same low audio when listening to the Phantom of the Opera on my 360 HD DVD drive. Although this problem with the Phantom has been brought up in reviews.

King Kong played loud and proud!

I'll have to test out some others...

OK, I have done some testing...

I loaded up KK DVD in my Denon 1600 and loaded up KK HD-DVD in my 360 add-on. I went to the beginning of chapter 30 (Brontosourus Stampede). I then started them at the same time with both players. With my remote I then went back and forth between audio.

At the same volume (-4db), the regular DVD seems to sounds better. No question about it. While the HD-DVD sounds much cleaner it really lacks the bass of the regular DVD. I adjusted volume and bass on my receiver (Denon 2802) and I got the HD-DVD to where it sounds markedly better than the regular DVD. Obviously I do not want to do this everytime I play a HD-DVD. To me the problem is 2 things: lower bass and lower volume. One would think that Microsoft could come out with a fix to raise volume and bass level.

When I had the bass and volume adjusted, I much preferred the HD-DVD audio. The HD-DVD audio is much cleaner/clear than the regular DVD. The regular DVD sounded a bit muddy by comparison. I agree with much of what t_tringle said in post #8.

I will be renting a another KK DVD tonight to compare sound from regular DVD played on Denon 1600 to one played on xbox 360 (just the console). I want to see if this is related to the console or add-on.

The thing is, is that the sound level differs per disc. I thought Kinig Kong was fretty good for sound level. Batman Begins was a bit lower, but not by much. But then The Last Samurai was so low I had to crank the volume up super high. I guess I'll play with it a bit on Thursday when I get back in town to see if changing anything on the disc will help.

I had the same problem a very flat 5.1 on Batman Begins....my SDVD also sounded better. I came up with the solution which made it sound 10x better. In the languages menu I changed the language to Dolby TrueHD (even though I dont have a TrueHD receiver) and bang, the change was evident. It seems that the downscaled TrueHD to 5.1 is better than the default 5.1....much better!

Has anyone else tried this ?

This is correct changing the output to Dolby TrueHD will improve the sound, try it. Yes, I know it doesn't output TrueHD but selecting this option modifies the sound processing, improving the sound quality. This is discussed in DVDTown's review of the drive:

Oddly, the Xbox 360 drive allows you to select Dolby TrueHD sound and it was clearly an improvement over the standard Dolby Digital 5.1 sound.

The full review can be found here (http://www.dvdtown.com/news/reviewofxbox360hddvdaddon/4186)

This is correct changing the output to Dolby TrueHD will improve the sound, try it. Yes, I know it doesn't output TrueHD but selecting this option modifies the sound processing, improving the sound quality. This is discussed in DVDTown's review of the drive:

The thing is King Kong only has Dolby Digital Plus and no DD track or TrueHD.

OK more testing #2...

I rented a second KK DVD and did some listening again to chapter 30. I listened to a regular DVD on my Denon 1600 compared to regular DVD played on xbox 360 itself and also on the the add-on. I once again switched back and forth between audio. The regular DVD played on 360 and add-on sounded identical to my DVD player.

To summarize audio compared to regular DVD played on DVD player:
HD-DVD on add-on - lower bass and lower volume level
DVD on add-on - indentical
DVD on console - indentical

The above tells me that this problem is related to xbox 360 HD-DVD software. It would seem that the way they are converting the DD+ is not correct. If Microsoft is in fact downconverting to 640 kbps they should be able to get it to sound better than regular DVD. I imagine that they could tweak volume and bass level. I wonder how we communicate this issue to Microsoft?

I checked with V4V and agree the SD sound has the edge when it comes to bass over the addon, volume is lower on the addon as well but seems to me to have a better soundstage. I posted a link to this thread for amirm, hopefully he will see it and it will get looked at.

I'm so glad I stumbled across this thread!

I thought I was the only one having these problems but this is what I find to be the case for myself with the HD-DVD Add-on:

-Dolby Digital Plus is very compressed and sound exactly like MAJOR Dynamic Range Compression.

-Dolby TrueHD Sound great! The dynamic range compression effect seems to be "off". Absolutely noticeable especially with Batman Begins, rooftop chase sequence.

-Regular DVD Dolby Digital sounds normal, dynamic range compression off and such.

So I just find it odd that the software has fault with the Dolby Digital Plus soundtrack. Since Dolby TrueHD sounds great and a lot better (in my opinion) it's obviously not the decoding of a higher bitrate and then re-encoding it to legacy Dolby Digital isn't the problem.

I just hope that they figure this out soon because other than that I am absolutely ecstatic about this add-on!

yeah when i first starting hearing this i was sure i'd be one of the only ones coming to complain about it, glad i'm not crazy!!!

so really the only times we're going to hear good audio is if there is a DOlby TrueHD or DTS track on the hd-dvd?

I suppose so... at least for the time being...

Hopefully, Amir is reading this thread and brings it to the attention of the proper people at MS.

I noticed the same thing during the stampede of dinosaurs. You couldn't hear the foots stomping the ground. It was very strange watching these huge creatures running and not hearing or feeling any rumble. I also hope they do something about the VGA output and put some Gamma controls into the dashboard. I love the sharpness over component but movies are too washed out.

so what's the latest on the audio?

^^

It still sucks.

Glad I found this thread too, I was going out of my mind last night watching MI:3 which only has a DD+ soundtrack. Up until then I had watched Fear and Loathing (DD TRUE) and Italian Job (DTS) and thought the sound was phenomenal. Pop MI3 in and I thought something got mis-set on my processor. Checked out OK, everything set correctly. I was like, "wow" this is horribly flat, dull and poorly recorded for a brand new movie release. Surround activity was muted and compressed as well. Now I know it's not just me or that movie. Hopefully this will be an easy download patch??????? :(

But then The Last Samurai was so low I had to crank the volume up super high.

The first Warner discs were mastered at a much lower volume than later discs, so that the menu button sounds wouldn't clip when mixed with the film audio. The other titles affected are The Phantom of the Opera and Million Dollar Baby.

I think some of us must have gotten better upgrades than others. I just got the 360 HD DVD and find the audio to be better than I’ve heard before (clear with a very good soundstage). The only disk I own in both DVD and HD DVD is “Apollo 13”. The HD version definitely sounds better than the non HD version.
“King Kong” impressively shook the furniture , during the dinosaur stampede.
Both the clarity and the base response I’m enjoying contradict what I’m reading from others here.
When I did the upgrade, I inserted the upgrade CD and was then instructed to connect the HD DVD, which I did. I don’t know if the upgrade then came from the CD or my internet connection but I’m happy with the results.
I have a second 360, which I’ll be installing the HD DVD drive on later. Hopefully I get the same results.

Toss another one on the list for low sound levels, I too am having this issue. I will try giving MS a call, worth a shot.

You know, this is a REALLY bad title for this thread. Not many out there are going to even click on something called: 360 Add on Kong vs SD DVD audio

Needs to be something sterner, like:

Does your audio suck out of your 360 add-on in DD+?

Can a moderator change this please or can it be re-named somehow??

I retract my previous post (post 58). When I did a side by side comparison, with my primary system, it was obvious that much of the ambiance is lost with the 360. The base seems fine but much of the detail is lost.

edit: added (post 58).

add me to the mix too

I borrowed a friend's Toshiba HD-A1 hooked it to my receiver and it reflected DTS 7.1 for KK sounded phenomenal. I then played in my xbox hd dvd all the receiver shows is Dolby Pro Logic EX. edit (Dolby Digital EX)

I turned my receiver up to 85 and still does not compare to the Toshiba.

On side note I plugged in Gladiator standard dvd into the xbox 360 which had a DTS 6.1 track and receiver played this fine.

Apparently for the xbox hd dvd to play DTS, a DTS track needs to be on the HD DVD which is not used by this format.

hopefully microsoft remedies this quickly or I may be taking mine back as well.

Other then the picture, sound is a huge WOW factor, and this drive does not do this...

King Kong sound like it lacked punch (though I'm remembering from theaters). Batman Begins sounded great in TrueHD, lacking in DD+. I have Apollo 13 on right now. The launch sequence just passed and I'm very dissappointed with the DD+ on this.

I think the tracks seem to sound a bit more "full" spatially then I'm used to, but they definantly lack bass and maybe some crispness.

add me to the mix too

I borrowed a friend's Toshiba HD-A1 hooked it to my receiver and it reflected DTS 7.1 for KK sounded phenomenal. I then played in my xbox hd dvd all the receiver shows is Dolby Pro Logic EX.



Sounds like you have your receiver configured incorrectly. KK and all HD-DVD's to date are 5.1 and no HD-DVD has a Dolby Pro Logic soundtrack for the main feature.

I just finished watching V on the 360 add on using the TrueHD sound option. The sound was MUCH better than KK DD+. There definitely has something to do with how the 360 compresses the DD+ signal. Hopefully they get that fixed.

Sounds like you have your receiver configured incorrectly. KK and all HD-DVD's to date are 5.1 and no HD-DVD has a Dolby Pro Logic soundtrack for the main feature.


oops my mistake the receiver shows "Dolby Digital EX"

I just finished watching V on the 360 add on using the TrueHD sound option. The sound was MUCH better than KK DD+. There definitely has something to do with how the 360 compresses the DD+ signal. Hopefully they get that fixed.

sadly i doubt this is something microsoft will deem worthy of a firmware update.

sadly i doubt this is something microsoft will deem worthy of a firmware update.

If they get many complaints, I bet they will.

So it appears only the DD+ track is being incorrectly decoded by the add on. The good news is True HD and normal DD will sound fine. The bad news is a lot of the HD DVDs are recorded only in DD+.

I'm confident that Microsoft will address this issue. Like the first generation A1 player, the 360 add on can be further tweaked and updated to correct issues. I think they have a real winner if they just fix the DD+ decoding.

I agree, the sound effects sound muted almost. Dialog is good though. My sammy hd960 sd dvd player blows away the hddvd add on. Time for another firmware fix, maybe they can add picture controls and resume.

sadly i doubt this is something microsoft will deem worthy of a firmware update.Totally disagree. The unit just came out and MS has been VERY good at making improvements for the 360.

Luckily, the only real sound issue I've had was with The Phantom. And that was a problem with the DVD (as stated in reviews), not the 360.

There will be patches and improvements will be made. Just make sure to make them aware of any issues that you are having.

So wait, you set the sound output to TrueHD even though the 360 can only handle DD5.1? Please forgive my ignorance, but what is the point of that? Won't the 360 just output it as DD 5.1?

Careful with this statement. As input, the 360 can "handle" ALL of the current HD-DVD audio formats. It then converts and OUTPUTs as DD 5.1. So it's likely that TrueHD sounds better because the conversion subroutines have more to work with and can output a better interpretation of the sound. Good MSDN write-up here about it: http://blogs.msdn.com/xboxteam/archive/2006/11/03/emergence-day.aspx

Unfortunately, what I've seen are audio lag issues wtih Batman Begins when using TrueHD so this negates any benefit for me.

I have a mixed reaction. i have the add-on and popped in king-kong and had the same first impression of low bass, but the whole disc is mastered to a lower volume level than my denon reciever usually plays at (usually -12db, this I had to crank way up to negative 2 to 3 db). When I cranked the reciever up so that the volume was at a proper level, I thought the sound was overall better( bigger soundstage and crisper dialogue with equal bass) than a typical dvd 5.1. However, I also got the mission impossible 3 pack. In Mission Impossible 1, the scene when Tom Cruise goes to the outside of the train initially is a great test for bass. Again, I thought the overall volume level was low in general, so I cranked it up, but no matter how high I cranked the reciever, I could not get the bass level I was used to with the regular dvd. Then I thought this must be an encoding issue with the software when they re-released the disc, but it sounds like people are having better luck with the toshiba (although they are likely getting true dolby digital plus or true hd through hdmi). Hopefully this could just be solved with an hdmi output cable and a software update.

I just tested MI:3 on this and also found that the bass is definitely lacking on the HD-DVD version. I'm running a mid-grade Denon receiver and a high-end Mission sub-woofer. I choose to test the scene where he's breaking Kerry Russel out of the industrial area (explosions, large calibre weapons fire, etc.)

With the standard DVD (DD5.1), there is a definite rumble from the sub that's almost completely lacking from the HD-DVD (DD+). Even if I turn the master volume up, by the time I get the sub to really engage with the HD-DVD, the dialogue is too loud. If I had to compare this to anything, I'd almost say it's like leaving my particular speakers on the "large" setting when they really need to be set to "small" to allow the sub to compensate. That's not 100% accurate but it's as close as I can come to what it sounds like.

I don't know if it's an LFE-specific problem with the de-coding/encoding routine or if they just need to tweak the bass response in general but it's definitely not where it needs to be with DD+ soundtracks (at least, with MI3's).

It's not just the bass, as most people are commenting on. Perhaps that's the most noticable aspect on many peoples systems, but there is something more going on here. Let me start off my saying, believe it or not, I have this add-on running through a 12k surround system with resolving loudspeakers. The problem is that with DD+ there seems to be a severe dynamic "compression" in all channels. My speakers through the add-on lack "air" and "crispness" like the standard DVD's have through a normal player. The top end has been "truncated" almost to the point that the tweeters themselves sound pinched and compressed. Just kinda all sounds dull and lifeless.

Hey, it all sounds kinda like an MP3! :eek:

^I would have to agree that there is something wrong with the sound on the add-on. Dull is the proper word here. It just seems to lack the crispness we've gotten used to with the A1. At least on my setup. The surrounds also seem much quieter than with the A1. I have both and also two copies of Kong. Switching between the two and there is a noticeable difference in clarity. The sound just doesn't envelope you quite the same.

Hopefully, MS will get this fixed.

OK, update, just watched MI:1 and I have this on SD-DVD as well to compare. Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo comparison sonically. Then "envelopment" from the SD-DVD version is sonically superior and is totally gone and missing on the DD+ HD-DVD version. On top of that, it's not just the bass or the "dull" sound or the "crisp" sound missing on the HD-DVD version: THE WHOLE FREAKIN' MIDRANGE IS MISSING! Yes, the top end is actually there and the bass and midbass are there------- but the entire midrange audio spectrum, say, from ~ 300Hz-2.5kHz has been SUCKED DRY! This is the "lifeless" and "compressed" sound we are actually hearing. On top of this problem, the rears sound almost like they are SHUT OFF! I would say they are down some 8-10dB in reference to the fronts and center. This is the "envelopement" we are missing (on top of the midrange being AWOL which is substantially contributing to the lack of envelopment).

This has NOTHING to do with how loud or soft this add-on is playing compared to a standard reference DVD player as well (it is softer BTW by some 10dB). More loud=more compression when you crank it and does not solve these issues!



This think sounds like crap; at least in DD+. MICROSOFT PLEASE HELP US!!!!!!!! :mad:

Played with The Last Samurai which is only encoded in DD+ and it sounds like ****. I can't believe how bad this is. Unfortunately since the discs are open I can't return them, but I think the drive may have to go back. How long until we know if MS will fix this? Maybe I'll order an A2 from Robert, or just stick with the PS3 blu-ray.

The unit just came out and MS has been VERY good at making improvements for the 360.
...
There will be patches and improvements will be made. Just make sure to make them aware of any issues that you are having.

Very true, we all need to do our due diligence and nofity Microsoft. Would this(MS Support Link) (http://support.xbox.com/eform.aspx?productKey=xbox360hw&page=support_home_options_form_byemail&ct=eformts&locale=en-us) be the appropriate place to voice such concern?

--Aside from this issue, this is one heck of a product.

Any advice for helping us bring this to light would be appreciated.
Thanks!
MM

It's not just the bass, as most people are commenting on. Perhaps that's the most noticable aspect on many peoples systems, but there is something more going on here. Let me start off my saying, believe it or not, I have this add-on running through a 12k surround system with resolving loudspeakers. The problem is that with DD+ there seems to be a severe dynamic "compression" in all channels. My speakers through the add-on lack "air" and "crispness" like the standard DVD's have through a normal player. The top end has been "truncated" almost to the point that the tweeters themselves sound pinched and compressed. Just kinda all sounds dull and lifeless.


jjkozlow you pretty much describe exactly what I hear. I too, as posted, have a very good system and like you said, its not bass but a total lack of ambiance and severe compression. Like you said, it is like really bad MP3 which even good MP3 on my system does not sound anywhere as good as original CD...

I thought this thread would be a good voice to Microsoft with its employees frequenting the forums, but please let us all know where else we might need to notify them of the DD+ decoding issue.

I thought this thread would be a good voice to Microsoft with its employees frequenting the forums, but please let us all know where else we might need to notify them of the DD+ decoding issue.

I have PM'ed amirm and also posted a link to this thread. Unfortunately with so much activity on the forums he may miss it or be too busy to respond. I will be calling MS this weekend, everyone should do the same so we get the problem noticed by the relevant people.

I have sent info to support and I also sent an e-mail to Major Nelson. Lets hope this gets fixed!

I watched "V" last night and the TrueHD track sounded fantastic!

definitly something wrong with the DD+ decoding down conversion. Hopefully a firmware is in the works.

I got a reply from Major Nelson:

"I’ll pass this along to the team."

This bodes well for getting a fix.

Following is my e-mail:

"Hello Major,

I love your site and blogcasts!

There are many people that are having issues with the sound when watching a HD-DVDs with Dolby Digital Plus. Many people over at the AVS forum have noticed that the volume is low, there is a lack of bass, and that it sounds very compressed when playing HD-DVDs that only have Dolby Digital plus tracks (DD+). I concur with them. At the same volume with no adjustments regular standard def DVDs sound better than HD-DVDs played through the xbox 360 HD-DVD drive.

There is definitely an issue with the way Microsoft is converting the DD+ to DD. I did some testing with my King Kong HD-DVD and 2 regular King Kong DVDs. I compared chapter 30 (Brontosaurus Stampede). With my testing I started chapter 30 at the exact same time and then compared sound by going back and forth between the two I was comparing (at the same volume). I have a Denon AVR-2802 receiver, a Denon DVD-1600 DVD player, and I have a 5.1 speaker setup (w/sub).

To summarize audio compared to regular DVD played on DVD player:
HD-DVD on xbox 360 HD-DVD drive - lower bass, compressed, and lower volume level
DVD on xbox 360 HD-DVD drive - identical
DVD on xbox 360 console – identical

If you or someone at Microsoft has the KK DVD you might want to try to A-B the difference in sound. It is very apparent in chapter 30.

I also have the “V for Vendetta”. When I play the TrueHD track it sounds great. DD+ on it does not compare. People have have also mentioned that HD-DVDs that are Dolby TrueHD sound great and better than the regular DVD. Unfortunately there are not a lot of HD-DVDs out there that have a TrueHD track.

It seems that the way Microsoft is converting the DD+ track to DD is not working properly. AC-3 (DD on regular DVD) is limited to 448 kbit/s. I would imagine that what Microsoft can convert the DD+ track to a higher bit rate than that. It is doable because the way the TrueHD is converted from the HD-DVD sounds loads better than a standard DVD. It seems like this is software related. When I play standard DVDs on the HD-DVD they sound great.

Here is post over at AVS:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=749463

I hope this can be resolved. I love the x-box 360 HD-DVD drive, I just wish movies with DD+ only sounded better.

Thanks,
Philip"

Thanks for getting the word out Philip!

I got a response from amirm and this issue is being looked into.

Just remember when you start pumping all that bass and it gets you thrown out of your apartment, you asked for it :)

Thanks guys for getting the word out to the right MS people!

I got a reply from Major Nelson:

"I’ll pass this along to the team."

This bodes well for getting a fix.

Following is my e-mail:

"Hello Major,

I love your site and blogcasts!

There are many people that are having issues with the sound when watching a HD-DVDs with Dolby Digital Plus. Many people over at the AVS forum have noticed that the volume is low, there is a lack of bass, and that it sounds very compressed when playing HD-DVDs that only have Dolby Digital plus tracks (DD+). I concur with them. At the same volume with no adjustments regular standard def DVDs sound better than HD-DVDs played through the xbox 360 HD-DVD drive.

There is definitely an issue with the way Microsoft is converting the DD+ to DD. I did some testing with my King Kong HD-DVD and 2 regular King Kong DVDs. I compared chapter 30 (Brontosaurus Stampede). With my testing I started chapter 30 at the exact same time and then compared sound by going back and forth between the two I was comparing (at the same volume). I have a Denon AVR-2802 receiver, a Denon DVD-1600 DVD player, and I have a 5.1 speaker setup (w/sub).

To summarize audio compared to regular DVD played on DVD player:
HD-DVD on xbox 360 HD-DVD drive - lower bass, compressed, and lower volume level
DVD on xbox 360 HD-DVD drive - identical
DVD on xbox 360 console – identical

If you or someone at Microsoft has the KK DVD you might want to try to A-B the difference in sound. It is very apparent in chapter 30.

I also have the “V for Vendetta”. When I play the TrueHD track it sounds great. DD+ on it does not compare. People have have also mentioned that HD-DVDs that are Dolby TrueHD sound great and better than the regular DVD. Unfortunately there are not a lot of HD-DVDs out there that have a TrueHD track.

It seems that the way Microsoft is converting the DD+ track to DD is not working properly. AC-3 (DD on regular DVD) is limited to 448 kbit/s. I would imagine that what Microsoft can convert the DD+ track to a higher bit rate than that. It is doable because the way the TrueHD is converted from the HD-DVD sounds loads better than a standard DVD. It seems like this is software related. When I play standard DVDs on the HD-DVD they sound great.

Here is post over at AVS:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=749463

I hope this can be resolved. I love the x-box 360 HD-DVD drive, I just wish movies with DD+ only sounded better.

Thanks,
Philip"

But how is it compared to another HD DVD player? I didn't notice a volume problem on KK when I compared it to my A1 HD DVD player. Comparing it to the DVD is apples to oranges. You have to compare the audio on the HD DVD add on to another HD DVD player. Not to a DVD.

But how is it compared to another HD DVD player? I didn't notice a volume problem on KK when I compared it to my A1 HD DVD player. Comparing it to the DVD is apples to oranges. You have to compare the audio on the HD DVD add on to another HD DVD player. Not to a DVD.
rob5797 compared to Toshiba A1 as well (post#62) and he said the A1 sounded a lot better. Very odd. It is not just a volume problem. It is hard for me to fathom that this is how DD+ sounds.

How do you have the audio on your A1 connected to your receiver.

Is there any way you can get a second KK HD-DVD (rent, friend, etc) to listen to them both at the same time back and forth at the same volume?

The A1 does sound betrter for me since I'm using audio over HDMI. I thought the problem was with the volume? The A1 will always sound better over HDMI since the A1 is decoding the DD+ and sending it over hdmi as pcm. The Xbox is re-encoding the DD+ to DD.

Yeah I am having the same audio problem as everyone here. I tried out Apollo 13 and loved the PQ but the sound quality leaves a lot to be desired when compared to the DTS DVD Superbit version. The Last Samurai also didn't have the same bass response or the volume which I really had to crank up to hear. It's not totally unacceptable IMO but it really seems to be missing the meat of the soundtracks. I don't have any HD-DVDs with a TrueHD sound track yet the one that I know that has one hasn't shipped to me yet so I will have to wait.

It's funny though when I switched to the Superbit of Apollo 13 I was thinking why is the picture so blurry lol.

Can anyone please do the following and tell me their experience?

Change the Xbox 360 audio setup from "Dolby Digital 5.1" to "Stereo". This changes the audio output from the console to PCM Stereo. This means the console only has to do a stereo downmix and no new Dolby Digital 5.1 encoding.

I did this and checked the sound via Dolby Pro Logic II on my Yamaha DSP-AZ1. I think it sounds much better than the Dolby Digital setting. Of course, with Pro Logic II you dont have that good channel seperation but overall the sound seems to be more dynamic.

I'm thinking now that even the True HD track leaves much to be desired along with dts. I think at first, I was wowed by the visuals and was not paying that much attention to the sound. Yesterday I watched Fear and Loathing again (True HD) and it has the same constapated sound as all the others. No, it's not to the same degree as DD+, but it's still not as good as an off the shelf standard DVD in plain jane DD.

Again, I think many are not noticing this as they are using HTIB systems or worse yet, their TV speakers.

Wow...so I guess those of us who don't have a good to great 5.1 soundsytem are screwed? You mean to say it's not a good way to introduce yourself to HD-DVD cheaply since the visuals by themselves are worthless?

Please.....get a grip folks. This is a fantastic way of getting into HD-DVD on the cheap.

I personally loved the PQ and quite frankly, it was nice not to find myself wrapped up in the sound department as I undoubtably would be had it been veiwed in my HT.

:)

Wow...so I guess those of us who don't have a good to great 5.1 soundsytem are screwed? You mean to say it's not a good way to introduce yourself to HD-DVD cheaply since the visuals by themselves are worthless?

Please.....get a grip folks. This is a fantastic way of getting into HD-DVD on the cheap.

I personally loved the PQ and quite frankly, it was nice not to find myself wrapped up in the sound department as I undoubtably would be had it been veiwed in my HT.

:)

You look familiar. If you need a clue as to who I am, I'll say this. Green Arrow. :)

I posted this at the other forum and I'll post it here.

I'm not saying this to knock on your sound system, but some people suggest that the sound issues we're having could be because the sound is optimized for smaller speaker systems such as home-theater in a box systems or possibly television speakers.

It could be that on your system you can't and won't hear the difference. If that's the case for you, then this add-on is truly of great value and you shouldn't worry about the issue.

As someone who's invested enough in his sound system though, the add-on is currently a dissapointment. I don't expect it to be as good a dedicated HD-DVD player with 5.1 analog outs, but I do expect it to be equal to or better than standard dd5.1 dvds.

Did some better testing with the U-571 HD-DVD. There is either something wrong with the way the DD+ track was mixed or the MS conversion process. If you pick the DD+ track the volume is low that should be OK since you can just turn up the volume, but there is something seriously lacking. If you switch to the DTS track on the disc (that also gets converted to DD also in the 360), the sound quality, depth and fullness are 100% better and didn't require me to increase the volume beyond my normal levels. If you have the this disc just put it in and go back and forth between the 2 tracks. It's like night and day even if you bump the volume up on your receiver for the DD+ track.

I really hope MS updates the player and fixes what I think is a bug somewhere in the conversion process (maybe adds a 1.5mbps DTS conversion option and pass through in the next player update ;) ).

Wow...so I guess those of us who don't have a good to great 5.1 soundsytem are screwed? You mean to say it's not a good way to introduce yourself to HD-DVD cheaply since the visuals by themselves are worthless?

Quite the opposite. Your better off with this add-on through HTIB's and TV speakers. That way, you don't have to hear how bad DD+ sounds and what you are missing over a standard DVD sonically!

Listened to (and watched) Italian Job (DTS) last night. Excellent sound; so I retract what I said about DTS anyway a few posts up.

This is by far the best sounding movie I have in my HD collection; excellent visually as well!

I would never return this add-on, even if the issues persisted and could not be fixed. It's awesome for what it is, I have come to grips with that!!

I've only seen one person openly state that they were going to return the add on. Everyone else here is enjoying their add on, but simply pointing out the fact that it can and should be improved to make it even better. Since the 360 does all the processing through software, it should be able to resolve these issues.

I see the potential to reach even more people if they improve this flaw. Its been stated before, people of all economic backgrounds are sitting out while this format war goes on. At $200 this is a fantastic bargain and no one is denying that. It's a perfect opportunity for many to experience HD with little investment.

We are here to voice opportunity for improvement. The same can be said for the just released PS3 with their video playback issues. I know that people are voicing issues as well. Both system issues will be resolved and both products will be better because of it.

I don't see the issue of voicing found flaws... We are all enthusiast looking for the best that our hard earned money can buy. ;)

After watching Chronicles of Riddick I'm keeping it. This is the way movies were meant to look on a projector! Clean sharp picture (small gripe about vga gamma levels but anyhow) and all this on aT\n non HD x1! The SP4805 just arrived back from warranty repair (dust blobs) and I haven't taken the time to hook it up but the x1 is no slouch. Finally I can watch a movie without constantly making adjustment to picture quailty making up for impertions in SD dvd. It would be nice if they fix the problem with the sound and I'm sure MS will look into the matter. I previously had an A1 but took it back when I started having the lip sync and freezing issues. The 360 add-on is almost as quick as an SD dvd player as far as loading and chapter changes unlike the A1 "(from which I hear they have improved with firmware updates). I do miss the True HD analog ability of the A1 but oh well.

A further note Radio Shack has the Monster VGA cables for 30.00. I know how most of you feel about Monster cables but they did make an improvement in the details of the picture enough to warrant some adjustments in picture. They are 2 ft longer and cheaper than the MS VGA cables I bought 6mos ago. This set included the RCA stereo plugs and I happened to have the fiberoptic toggle from a previous set of monster cables for the xbox.

Monster cables are not bad at all. They are just usually ridiculously overpriced.

I have emailed Major Nelson also...and got a reply....so they are aware of the problem

From Major Nelson

I have asked the HD DVD Team for an answer on this.



From: xxxxxxxx
Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2006 4:14 PM
To: Xbox Live Programming
Subject: XBOX 360 HD DVD drive - Flat Sound Quality ?



Hi Major Nelson,



I won't suck up too much but will say that you are a massive asset to the XBOX 360 community, I really appreciate your work.



I have the HD DVD add on drive and will say that overall I am impressed with the drive apart from the audio. I have Batman Begins, King Kong and Troy. There seems to be a flatness on the DD+ soundtracks. King Kong sounds totally flat and lifeless, no punch at all. Their is bass their but their seems to be real flatness across the whole dynamic range. The DD+ on Batman Begins also sounds flat but if you change the output to TrueHD is totally comes alive, a massive improvement, Troy is a similar story. Unfortunately the SD DVD's soundtrack sound better than the DD+.



Is their a way to get the message across to the development teams ? I know I am only one person but I understand that their are quite a few people in the same position.



I'm assuming that this can be resolved by a software patch or is it a limitation of the hardware/DAC components ?



For me the audio is just as important as the video on HD DVD and seems with this problem I am limited to HD DVD's that have the TrueHD soundtrack (not too many at this point in time).



I understand you are busy and don't expect a reply but would appreciate if this problem could be highlighted to the appropriate contacts within the XBOX 360 teams.



Thanks for taking the time to read this email.

I have emailed Major Nelson also...and got a reply....so they are aware of the problem

From Major Nelson

I have asked the HD DVD Team for an answer on this.


Let's hope he gets an answer soon. I need to decide asap to buy it or not.

But, where is Amir?

Let's hope he gets an answer soon. I need to decide asap to buy it or not.

But, where is Amir?

I would hope he's on this one as well.

Let's hope he gets an answer soon. I need to decide asap to buy it or not.

But, where is Amir?

I got a response from amirm and this issue is being looked into.

Just remember when you start pumping all that bass and it gets you thrown out of your apartment, you asked for it :)

I'm got one from Amazon, hopefully a fix doesn't take too long to implement.

The auto update did not fix :( I listened to chapter 30 compared to DVD and no change.

I did find the following about the xbox 360 hd-dvd drive software development. Interesting stuff:

http://blogs.msdn.com/xboxteam/archive/2006/11/03/emergence-day.aspx

"The Xbox 360 HD DVD Player, for the most part, is an entirely software based implementation. Other players on the market have specialized chips (called DSPs) that decode things like H.264, MPEG, VC1, DTS, Dolby Digital, and other codecs. Much like how backwards compatibility for Xbox 1 works on Xbox 360, the heavy parts of HD DVD are all done on Xbox 360's triple-core CPU."

"Unlike DVD, where typical players pass the audio data from the disc through to your receiver, HD DVD requires that players mix sounds from menus and such in with the audio being played for the movie. The 360 player software decodes all the above codecs in software, mixes anything that needs to go together, re-encodes it into Dolby Digital and then sends that to your receiver."

what auto update?

Crap, I lied. I did return the 360 add-on because of these audio issues. Don't flame me though, I bought an HD-A1 off Ebay factory refurbished yesterday for $299 so I'm still a hardcore HD-DVD supporter. The sexy 5.1 analog outputs on the A-1 were too much to pass up as the newer A2 leaves them off. I can now enjoy DD True HD and DTS Master (if it ever comes out on an HD-DVD!) via my 5.1 analog ins on my processor.

ALSO---My Sony projector did not like the VGA output on the 360 add-on either (it looked washed out and lifeless), so now I also gain SD-DVD upconversion with this swap to the A1. Again, please have mercy on me; the 360 add-on rocks but for $100 more I bit and bought the Toshiba.

Not worried about the "load time" either as it takes my projector a good 4 minutes to warm up to optimum anyway.

FORGIVE ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Well I had the same issue with the King Kong movie and I thought maybe it was an issue with the fact that you connect the add-on through usb to mini usb, but I than put in my SD DVD of King Kong and that T-Rex scene sounded a hell of a lot better. So right than I new it wasnt an add-on problem, so I wen into the 360 audio menu and I noticed I had DD 1.5 with WMA support on, but my Yamaha doesnt support WMA, I clicked that off and BAM!!! big difference, i tested mine on the part where the girl is on the cliff and that t rex just comes out of no where and tries to take a big chomp off of her, that chomp sound is what made me realize the difference between my SD and HD audio quality. Either turning that function off did it for, or am I hallucinating.

PS I do have an ear for sound like many of you in here. I'm going home today and checking again but I swear I heard a difference.

djorijun, I have checked the audio on the xbox 360 menu a few times to make sure I had Dolby Digital 5.1 selected so no, it does not effect the sound. The "chomp" scene has a good amount of bass, but it is still sounding flat and lacking in comparison to the standard DVD...

I tired that too. No difference for me at all; but maybe I was hallucinating!

I tired that too. No difference for me at all; but maybe I was hallucinating!

Well, you actually tried the DD 5.1 with WMA support which I was thinking of trying to see if it did anything which you have already tried.

Why is everyone comparing the sound to the SD DVD. The audio can be different between the HD DVD and the SD DVD. The KK HD DVD plays as it should in my Add on and the A1. If you start comparing the audio of all the HD DVDs to the Sd DVDs you will find differences.
You have to compare the audio of the HD DVDs with a stand alone HD DVD player NOT to an SD DVD. There is alot of bass form my A1 over HDMI and the HD DVD add on in my 5.1 system and my 7.1 system.

What exactly does the Xbox update do? I really want to get one (360) to play Halo 3 when it comes out and the HD-DVD option would be alot cheaper then buying both. Hopefully Microsoft will be able to fix this problem. Also after some looking around it seems like you are only able to utilize the newer sound formats through the use of a HDMI cable.

It's funny though when I switched to the Superbit of Apollo 13 I was thinking why is the picture so blurry lol.

Apollo 13 was a Superbit release ...? :rolleyes:

John: Yeah there were 2 releases one was the standard SE type with a bunch of extras then there was a Superbit version with a higher video bitrate and a DTS track.

FYI there is suppose to be a new update on for the xbox HD player available today. It is suppose to prompt you if you want to update the player when you put in a HD-DVD disc. I haven't checked it yet but will a little later on. Anyone try it yet and know if it fixes the audio DD+ issue?

John: Yeah there were 2 releases one was the standard SE type with a bunch of extras then there was a Superbit version with a higher video bitrate and a DTS track.

FYI there is suppose to be a new update on for the xbox HD player available today. It is suppose to prompt you if you want to update the player when you put in a HD-DVD disc. I haven't checked it yet but will a little later on. Anyone try it yet and know if it fixes the audio DD+ issue?

nope it does not, and the lip syncing still isn't fixed.

Ah ha! I knew I wasnt hearing things. Or in this case, hearing a lack of things.

KK is my first HD DVD. I popped it in and was literally blown away by the PQ. Just gorgeous. I skipped through the movie to check things out. Go to the T-Rex scene and noticed the sound, sounds funny. Sounded flat, and missing that oomph. Not to mention, I had to crank up the dial an extra 10 clicks.

I put in my Gladiator DVD into the HD DVD drive, and the sound is much better.

TV: Sony KP-51WS510
Speakers: Athena 5.1 setup
Receiver: Pioneer 1015?


PS, I'm using the optical cable.

I tired that too. No difference for me at all; but maybe I was hallucinating!

LOL

Why is everyone comparing the sound to the SD DVD. The audio can be different between the HD DVD and the SD DVD. The KK HD DVD plays as it should in my Add on and the A1. If you start comparing the audio of all the HD DVDs to the Sd DVDs you will find differences.
You have to compare the audio of the HD DVDs with a stand alone HD DVD player NOT to an SD DVD. There is alot of bass form my A1 over HDMI and the HD DVD add on in my 5.1 system and my 7.1 system.


.

:cool:

Why is everyone comparing the sound to the SD DVD. The audio can be different between the HD DVD and the SD DVD. The KK HD DVD plays as it should in my Add on and the A1. If you start comparing the audio of all the HD DVDs to the Sd DVDs you will find differences.
You have to compare the audio of the HD DVDs with a stand alone HD DVD player NOT to an SD DVD. There is alot of bass form my A1 over HDMI and the HD DVD add on in my 5.1 system and my 7.1 system.

How are you getting extra bass out of the add on? Did you recalibrate your speakers to run hotter?

Just by turning the master volume up by 10 did not produce any noticeable bass increase. BTW I'm using a Pioneer Elite VSX82 receiver and a SVS PB-10 sub.

aaronwt,

It might seem to be flawed to compare two different versions of the same movie, but I don't have another HD DVD player. Are you saying that the sound from the A1 and the add on is exactly the same? Why would they remix an entire soundtrack to sound so different? Wouldn't they sound similar? Wouldn't the higher bit rate soundtrack be an improvement? Why does soundtracks with plain DD and TrueHD sound much better off the add on than DD+?

Many others have also stated that it is not a loss of bass that is the problem. Bass is there, but little else. Its hard to describe. There is very little envelopement and sounds very lacking as some people have described as flat. I would think a higher bit rate sound format that is downconverted to DD (at 640kbit/s) to sound as good if not better than the standard DVD title (448kbit/s).

I would expect the audio difference to be like DD and DTS and not like an entirely different soundtrack. I doubt they changed the soundtrack...

I think it is a valid issue.

Sounds like dynamics compression to me.

Sounds like dynamics compression to me.


it is. Like explosions don't sound any louder then dialog, sounds very flat.

I now own 4 HD-DVDs (wooo-hooo):

MI:3
The Thing
King Kong
V for Vandetta

The only one that sounds great is V for Vandetta while played in TrueHD. In my mind there is no way this is how DD+ sounds played on a A1 (or other HD-DVD player). I just watched MI:3 and the whole sequence on the bridge sounded very flat. Even my wife who does not know much of these things commented that it sounded "off".

Start the 360.

Hit the Guide button to open the dashboard.

Select the Speaker icon that appears above the "Select Music" button in the dash.

Note the default volume setting is at approx. 30%.

Adjust it to 100% - full right.

Hit OK or A on the controller to commit the change.

Close the dash by pressing Guide again.

Insert HD-DVD disc.

Notice that the audio has expected dynamic range, you can crank your amp/receiver back to normal listening levels, etc.

I didn't break out a meter, but my ear says that with the dash music volume max'd, the HD player's audio level matches the SD audio level when playing a SD DVD directly on the 360.

it might be all in my mind but i think that made a difference. I won't know untill morrow because if i pump up my reciever the neighbors are gonna be pissed.

Just tried it but it didn't seem to help at all. Tried U-571 and the DD+ sound is still flat compared to the DTS version. They might be different mixes but it can't possibly be so different that there is such a clear difference between the two. I only tried just the opening sequence of Constantine and the DD+ sounds ok but the TrueHD sound meatier. I really can't watch Constantine right now but tomorrow I probably will.

I think the xbox team need to tweak their downconversion algorithm a little. Hopefully they can have fix by year end.....

Start the 360.

Hit the Guide button to open the dashboard.

Select the Speaker icon that appears above the "Select Music" button in the dash.

Note the default volume setting is at approx. 30%.

Adjust it to 100% - full right.

Hit OK or A on the controller to commit the change.

Close the dash by pressing Guide again.

Insert HD-DVD disc.

Notice that the audio has expected dynamic range, you can crank your amp/receiver back to normal listening levels, etc.

I didn't break out a meter, but my ear says that with the dash music volume max'd, the HD player's audio level matches the SD audio level when playing a SD DVD directly on the 360.

Nothing done here. The speaker volume is not the issue really. The LFE channel is just not there. My standard DVDs just rock the room, this barely sounds like it has a hicup.

I hope MS resolves this issue soon.. I am very tempted to return my drive and get a stand alone if this keeps up.

Start the 360.

Hit the Guide button to open the dashboard.

Select the Speaker icon that appears above the "Select Music" button in the dash.

Note the default volume setting is at approx. 30%.

Adjust it to 100% - full right.

Hit OK or A on the controller to commit the change.

Close the dash by pressing Guide again.

Insert HD-DVD disc.

Notice that the audio has expected dynamic range, you can crank your amp/receiver back to normal listening levels, etc.

I didn't break out a meter, but my ear says that with the dash music volume max'd, the HD player's audio level matches the SD audio level when playing a SD DVD directly on the 360.

Boy, I feel stupid, I cant find the speaker icon, could you guide me to it. Which tab is it on?

yeh that speaker thing didn't do anything. soundeffects still sound muted compared to dialog.

i tried the speaker icon trick as well and it did not do anything. i still need to crank the volume way up.

who do we shoot an email to get this thing working properly??? Just saw "Accepted" sd side vs HD. Suprisingly SD audio blows away the HD.

it is. Like explosions don't sound any louder then dialog, sounds very flat.
Definitely nothing like that on my 5.1 and 7.1 system from the 360 with the HD DVD addon.

with DTS and trueHD its fine but DD+, its pretty weak. I"m not crazy either, many people here are having the same issue. I've just tried "Accepted" dual disk on the same HDdvd drive. SD sounds miles better.

Definitely nothing like that on my 5.1 and 7.1 system from the 360 with the HD DVD addon.

What receiver and speakers are you connected to?

I agree, something is not quite right. To me it sounds like compression. On the opening logos with Kong as soon as you start playing the disc before even the menu appears, as the "rumble" sound starts on the first logo, the volume should get louder, but it stays static. It is so obviously compression.

With True HD discs, there isn't a problem, so whatever bug/coding error exists with DD+, is not there with True HD...obviously a different codec.

Microsoft CAN fix this. It is all in software. The fact that TrueHD works fine, is evidence of that fact.

Therefore, we need to sit back and wait for the fix...in the meantime it would be good if Microsoft could confirm that they are looking into it, and feel confident they are going to resolve it in a short time.

Jonathan

yeh if we don't complain, this issue is going to get ignored.

I agree, something is not quite right. To me it sounds like compression. On the opening logos with Kong as soon as you start playing the disc before even the menu appears, as the "rumble" sound starts on the first logo, the volume should get louder, but it stays static. It is so obviously compression.

With True HD discs, there isn't a problem, so whatever bug/coding error exists with DD+, is not there with True HD...obviously a different codec.

Microsoft CAN fix this. It is all in software. The fact that TrueHD works fine, is evidence of that fact.

Therefore, we need to sit back and wait for the fix...in the meantime it would be good if Microsoft could confirm that they are looking into it, and feel confident they are going to resolve it in a short time.

Jonathan

Do you think that TrueHD is works fine ? I think it is better than the DD+ but the SD DVD version sounds better than TrueHD.

HCK-UK, which movie are you referring to? King Kong does not have a TrueHD soundtrack but only a DD+ soundtrack. I have yet to play a movie that has a TrueHD soundtrack yet but I have a handful queued through BlockBuster Online.

Definitely nothing like that on my 5.1 and 7.1 system from the 360 with the HD DVD addon.
Please list your equipment.

Also, are you comparing to the same movie on a DVD?

Well after reading this thread I decided to do an A/B test using the add-on and my SD DVD player with KK both set to DD+. I was shocked how much the SD blew the add-on out of the water audio wise. The addon sounded almost muffled, lacking umph, especially during the dinosaur chase scene. Thank you for bringing this too my attention. MS needs to address this ASAP, when they do I may re-purchase the addon, as of now its going back.

I also noticed the audio sounded the same during MI:3 HD DVD but I didnt have a SD copy to compare it too but it just didnt sound dynamic at all during action scenes. I suspect the same result if I A/B'd it.

Love the video but the audio is a serious step back.

My set up:

Rcv - Interga DTR 6.4
Speakers - Energy Connoisseur C9,CC1,C-3 (5.1 set up)
Sub - Def Tech ProSub 1000
DVD player - Pioneer DV 563A

And to the poster who says we shouldn't compare different formats. I thought the upgrade from SD to HD DVDs was suppossed to improve both video and audio. Am I wrong for assuming that?

i tried the speaker icon trick as well and it did not do anything. i still need to crank the volume way up.


I'd be curious some that are hearing no difference are using the analog outs, and some are using the digital outs... just curious if that setting only works on one and not the other...

The other interesting note is that although DD+ and THD are different codecs, the both must be decoded to PCM through post the mixer before being re-encoded in real time into legacy DD.

I'd be curious some that are hearing no difference are using the analog outs, and some are using the digital outs... just curious if that setting only works on one and not the other...

The other interesting note is that although DD+ and THD are different codecs, the both must be decoded to PCM through post the mixer before being re-encoded in real time into legacy DD.


I think you're right and people need to clarify what outputs they are using. I am using the optical output and bass is not an issue nor do I think the volume adjustment in the 360 menu would do anything as that appears to be a analog adjustment. So it most likely the lack of bass is with the analog output.

The sound is very poor when compared to the SD version fo Kong, but not because of lack of bass but lacking in envelopment and is flat...

I think you're right and people need to clarify what outputs they are using. I am using the optical output and bass is not an issue nor do I think the volume adjustment in the 360 menu would do anything as that appears to be a analog adjustment. So it most likely the lack of bass is with the analog output.

The sound is very poor when compared to the SD version fo Kong, but not because of lack of bass but lacking in envelopment and is flat...

I am using the optical out and for me bass is an issue. During the various scenes within KK, Dinosaur and T-rex fight there is hardly any bass at all. Also on Batman Begins on DD+ the bass is lacking and the whole range is flat.

You mentioned analogue outs on the xbox 360, where can these be found so I can test it ?

I tried both optical and analog, same results

What receiver and speakers are you connected to?

A Denon 3806 for the 7.1 system(with polk speakers and an SVS subwoofer), and a Spherex Xbox 5.1 system.

Just a quick FYI that we are looking at this problem. I don't have an update on it because I was on vacation for a while. But for now, wanted to let you know that we are finalizing our DTS encoder which once done, should produce the same experience as the Toshiba player which everyone was happy with....

Sweet!!!!

Excellent news :)

Just a quick FYI that we are looking at this problem. I don't have an update on it because I was on vacation for a while. But for now, wanted to let you know that we are finalizing our DTS encoder which once done, should produce the same experience as the Toshiba player which everyone was happy with....
Excellent. I suspect this will help move a lot of units...

It's always great to get news from you guys. :)

Sweeeeeeet!!:D:cool:

Just a quick FYI that we are looking at this problem. I don't have an update on it because I was on vacation for a while. But for now, wanted to let you know that we are finalizing our DTS encoder which once done, should produce the same experience as the Toshiba player which everyone was happy with....I'm extremely pleased to hear this, and grateful for the speed with which the team has tackled the issue. Thanks!

So DTS is coming...does that mean DTS won't be converted to DD? It will come out as a DTS stream?

DTS and TrueHD both seem to convert over to DD better than DD+...so it seems that DTS is the lesser issue. What about discs that only have a DD+ track? Is that issue being worked out?

Seems to me that an HDMI connector for the 360 would simplify a lot of things. Couldn't cost 5 bucks to make and market and they could sell them all day for 30 bucks...and probably more.

So DTS is coming...does that mean DTS won't be converted to DD? It will come out as a DTS stream?
Yes. However, AFAIK, it won't be the original DTS stream.

DTS and TrueHD both seem to convert over to DD better than DD+...so it seems that DTS is the lesser issue.
Huh? I don't understand.

What about discs that only have a DD+ track? Is that issue being worked out?
??? That would be converted to DTS as well.

new to the xbox thing. Once an update is available, how does one get it? Is there an download site for the xbox?

DTS comes out as DTS. Italian job DTS track sounds great with the add on.

new to the xbox thing. Once an update is available, how does one get it? Is there an download site for the xbox?

You usually get it over Xbox live, but they also put the update on a webpage which you can burn to a CD and update that way.

Great news Amirm!

If we can get a solution that converts DD+ to DTS 1.5mb/s I'm sure many others like me will be extremely happy! I know I'll be able to enjoy HD DVD now while waiting for future improved generations of both formats to come out.

It great to know that MS is focused on making the 360 and the add on as good as they can be and are listening to their customers!

amirm, thanks for listening :) Oh, my poor neighbours!

Just a quick FYI that we are looking at this problem. I don't have an update on it because I was on vacation for a while. But for now, wanted to let you know that we are finalizing our DTS encoder which once done, should produce the same experience as the Toshiba player which everyone was happy with....

Kudos.

One more reason it's good to have official company representation active in a forum of 'the people'. :)

amirm is the man!

I can't wait for this release.

Great Job amitm!

Now let us have a solution for Reverse 3:2 Pulldown -> 48Hz Output, and everything will be perfect!

Great news! Microsoft are really working hard with these HD DVD updates it seems.

Amir, I must thank you personally for listening to us. This is fantastic news.

Amir, thank you and your team for the hard work you guys put in with this great update. :)

Thank you Amirm!

Could someone tell me what this conversion to DTS means?

My understanding is that with HD DVD Dolby Digital Plus has Bit rate performance of 3 Mbps. The xbox 360 can output Dolby Digital (AC-3) signal at a full 640Kbps. Standard DVDs with Dolby Digital have a maximum bit rate of 448 kbps. Theoretically the xbox 360 can convert DD+ to a 640 kpbs DD which would surpass standard DVD. The xbox 360 can also output DTS which has a bit rate that maxes out at 1.5 Mbps. It looks like Microsoft is looking at converting the DD+ into DTS (hopefully 1.5 Mbps). In this manner they could pass a 1.5 Mbps bit rate signal via the optical cable.

Is this correct?

Thanks

Amir, thank the team for us too. :)

Thank you Amirm!

Could someone tell me what this conversion to DTS means?

My understanding is that with HD DVD Dolby Digital Plus has Bit rate performance of 3 Mbps. The xbox 360 can output Dolby Digital (AC-3) signal at a full 640Kbps. Standard DVDs with Dolby Digital have a maximum bit rate of 448 kbps. Theoretically the xbox 360 can convert DD+ to a 640 kpbs DD which would surpass standard DVD. The xbox 360 can also output DTS which has a bit rate that maxes out at 1.5 Mbps. It looks like Microsoft is looking at converting the DD+ into DTS (hopefully 1.5 Mbps). In this manner they could pass a 1.5 Mbps bit rate signal via the optical cable.

Is this correct?
Yes.

Just a nitpick though. While I'd expect the 1.5 Mbps DTS output to sound better, bitrates cannot be directly compared that way, and even if they could, the settings chosen for the transcoded mix would have very significant impact on the audio.

Start the 360.

Hit the Guide button to open the dashboard.

Select the Speaker icon that appears above the "Select Music" button in the dash.

Note the default volume setting is at approx. 30%.

Adjust it to 100% - full right.

Hit OK or A on the controller to commit the change.

Close the dash by pressing Guide again.

Insert HD-DVD disc.

Notice that the audio has expected dynamic range, you can crank your amp/receiver back to normal listening levels, etc.

I didn't break out a meter, but my ear says that with the dash music volume max'd, the HD player's audio level matches the SD audio level when playing a SD DVD directly on the 360.

I just tried this and it made a huge difference. Still can't say how similar or not it is to DVD though. I totally forgot the default settings on the 360 were 30%, that makes a huge difference when you turn it up.

amirm: Good news! happy to hear that

Yes, thank you for listening and offering up a fix so quickly!

You guys at MS might want to get S.Spears in the listening room to do some measurments/testing, etc. with all of the various types of audio tracks (DD, DD+, True HD, DTS, etc.) to be sure they all convert to DTS flawlessly and that there will be no complaints from the audiophiles around here...

Amir, thank the team for us too. :)


Yes.

Just a nitpick though. While I'd expect the 1.5 Mbps DTS output to sound better, bitrates cannot be directly compared that way, and even if they could, the settings chosen for the transcoded mix would have very significant impact on the audio.

Could you please expand on this a bit? What do you mean by "the settings chosen for the transcoded mix would have very significant impact on the audio"?

Thanks!

Ah, ok, I get it...converting dd+ to 1.5mb dts...I thought we were just talking about getting better sound from DTS tracks. That's why I thought it strange to tackle better DTS before fixing the DD+ issue.

Thanks to all!

i do not agree that just converting to dts is a fix. if i have an hd-dvd player, i expect it should output dd plus and truehd in its full bandwidth. they should release an hdmi cable capable of this bandwidth plus a software update. a transcode to dts is not a fix. there has to be some data loss with the transcoding. i wish ms would just once and for all say if they are coming out with an hdmi add on cable. otherwise i think i will return my hd-dvd add on and wait some months for something with a reasonable price with full audio capabilities.

i do not agree that just converting to dts is a fix. if i have an hd-dvd player, i expect it should output dd plus and truehd in its full bandwidth. they should release an hdmi cable capable of this bandwidth plus a software update. a transcode to dts is not a fix. there has to be some data loss with the transcoding. i wish ms would just once and for all say if they are coming out with an hdmi add on cable. otherwise i think i will return my hd-dvd add on and wait some months for something with a reasonable price with full audio capabilities.

why don't you just get the toshiba with analog outs??? I mean instead of springing for a whole new expensive new reciever that can decode taht.

i do not agree that just converting to dts is a fix. if i have an hd-dvd player, i expect it should output dd plus and truehd in its full bandwidth. they should release an hdmi cable capable of this bandwidth plus a software update. a transcode to dts is not a fix. there has to be some data loss with the transcoding. i wish ms would just once and for all say if they are coming out with an hdmi add on cable. otherwise i think i will return my hd-dvd add on and wait some months for something with a reasonable price with full audio capabilities.
I agree that HDMI would be nice and I expect that to come out. For that matter I would like a adapter that has component video and 5.1 analog out.

This is a fix for the current xbox 360 configuration. Everyone should have known before buying that they would not get full DD+ and TrueHD (I know I did). This is not something that is broken. Did you think when you bought the HD-DVD drive that you would be able to get DD+ or TrueHD via an optical cable?

edit: woooohooo, 100th post after 5 years :)

Could you please expand on this a bit? What do you mean by "the settings chosen for the transcoded mix would have very significant impact on the audio"?
The DD output doesn't necessarily have to sound like it does. They could theoretically change how the DD output behaves, and thus make it sound different.

Similarly, just going to DTS doesn't automagically mean it's going to sound awesome. It really depends on their implementation of it. I am hopeful that their implementation will be very good however.


i do not agree that just converting to dts is a fix. if i have an hd-dvd player, i expect it should output dd plus and truehd in its full bandwidth. they should release an hdmi cable capable of this bandwidth plus a software update. a transcode to dts is not a fix. there has to be some data loss with the transcoding. i wish ms would just once and for all say if they are coming out with an hdmi add on cable. otherwise i think i will return my hd-dvd add on and wait some months for something with a reasonable price with full audio capabilities.
HDMI is desirable, but Xbox 360 doesn't have it.

You know that prior to buying it. If you want HDMI, I suggest you buy a Toshiba HD-A2. In fact, even Microsoft recommends the Toshiba if you want HDMI.

For the rest of us, this DTS option will be more than sufficient, if the sound is anywhere near comparable to the DTS output of the Toshiba HD-A1/A2.

I haven't read this entire thread, only the first couple of posts, so I apologize if this is redundant. But I found that if I turned off Dynamic Range Compression on my receiver that my sound quality improved dramatically. I had DRC set to medium, which worked well on standard DVD DD5.1 soundtracks as a dynamic compression device to avoid disturbing the other people in the house.

But it has a totally devestating effect on the 360 HD-DVD audio, not sure why. With the DRC turned off, I find the 360 soundtrack comparable to my standard DVD soundtrack. Admittedly, my speakers aren't the best -- an Athena 5.1 surround system -- but they are decent speakers for the price.

I"ve tried that but no real change on my Pioneer receiver.

well, my cable dd 5.1 actually has BETTER bass than what i have heard on the 360 so far.

this is really disappointing. i'll probably use the player for the time being but get another hd-dvd player the moment they release one that plays SACD's.

is this ever going to happen?


not a chance in hell. sacd=sony. sony is not fond of hddvd...

the output from the xbox is a proprietary connection (on the xbox end) but ends in several configurations (rca video ,component, vga, etc.)...so just because the xbox 360 end doesn't have an hdmi output, doesn't mean they can't come up with a cable with an hdmi end. the toshibas, from what i understand, still have too long of boot up times. the thing i like about the add on is that it feels like a regular dvd player in terms of sticking the disc in and the movie coming up in moments. i, unfortunately, did not do full research before buying it and just expected full audio compatibility with the new formats. just dissapointed but hope it can be fixed with relatively minor software/ hardware (cable) patch

Hello !

Sorry for my english !

I understood that update converts DD + to DTS by optical. But when your A/V receivers supports only Dolby Digital, what are you doing ? (Because my old Denon AVC A1 has only Doldy Digital decode)

Hello !

Sorry for my english !

I understood that update converts DD + to DTS by optical. But when your A/V receivers supports only Dolby Digital, what are you doing ? (Because my old Denon AVC A1 has only Doldy Digital decode)

My guess? In the dashboard will be an additional audio choice to the three on offer currently, offering DTS.

I am happy to hear about the fix as well. I haven't had enough time to perform any comparisons, but I did notice a sound difference immediately. I had to pump the volume way, way up compared to regular SD-DVD material. The sound seemed dull to me as well, but I haven't been able to perform any comparisons yet.

I just tried this and it made a huge difference. Still can't say how similar or not it is to DVD though. I totally forgot the default settings on the 360 were 30%, that makes a huge difference when you turn it up.
well, does this make a difference, when you play a SD DVD?

My guess? In the dashboard will be an additional audio choice to the three on offer currently, offering DTS.

If it didn't come up as a choice then it wouldn't be a good thing since some receivers may not even support DTS and for others they may still prefer the sound they get on a given sound system and a given movie with Max bitrate DD 5.1

Yeah, it's probably an option. DD support is already there, so it wouldn't really make a lot of sense to remove it.

the output from the xbox is a proprietary connection (on the xbox end) but ends in several configurations (rca video ,component, vga, etc.)...so just because the xbox 360 end doesn't have an hdmi output, doesn't mean they can't come up with a cable with an hdmi end. the toshibas, from what i understand, still have too long of boot up times. the thing i like about the add on is that it feels like a regular dvd player in terms of sticking the disc in and the movie coming up in moments. i, unfortunately, did not do full research before buying it and just expected full audio compatibility with the new formats. just dissapointed but hope it can be fixed with relatively minor software/ hardware (cable) patch


The problem may be that there are NO digital out pins for the video on the Xbox 360's connector (from the motherboard). If you look up the thread that has info on how to make your own VGA connector you'll see that the pins on the Xbox connector are all labeled (minus a few). None of those appeared to be digital out video pins. If this is true then HDMI may never be an option because the Xbox 360 may lack the pinouts from the motherboard that would make a digitial video connection possible.

The problem may be that there are NO digital out pins for the video on the Xbox 360's connector (from the motherboard). If you look up the thread that has info on how to make your own VGA connector you'll see that the pins on the Xbox connector are all labeled (minus a few). None of those appeared to be digital out video pins. If this is true then HDMI may never be an option because the Xbox 360 may lack the pinouts from the motherboard that would make a digitial video connection possible.
Unless the 360's video chip has a digital mode and re-purposes the analog pins to a digital stream when digital mode is selected...

From what people are saying about how DD+ remixed to DD sounds horrible, but TrueHD remixed to DD sounds great, it seems to me that DD+ remixed to DTS may not really fix the issue. Although the higher DTS bitrate is nice, you still have a decompression/recompression cycle that doesn't happen from the TrueHD/DD path. Seems like there might be something about the combination of DD+ decode/DD encode algorithms that is destructive to the sound information.

Can someone with an A1 comment on it's sound quality using the optical output and DD+ to DD remix setting?

Either that, or the root problem may be the DD+ decoding itself, and not the decode/encode interaction. Anyways, I guess we'll find out shortly when the update is released.

Note: I don't have the drive myself yet (can't find one in stock locally!) so I'm just going off what people have posted in this thread.

Amir do you know exactly when the update is going to be available?

The problem may be that there are NO digital out pins for the video on the Xbox 360's connector (from the motherboard). If you look up the thread that has info on how to make your own VGA connector you'll see that the pins on the Xbox connector are all labeled (minus a few). None of those appeared to be digital out video pins. If this is true then HDMI may never be an option because the Xbox 360 may lack the pinouts from the motherboard that would make a digitial video connection possible.

Unless the 360's video chip has a digital mode and re-purposes the analog pins to a digital stream when digital mode is selected...

Hey guys, first post - hope it's useful to some...

The issue about The Xbox 360 being able (or not being able) to output a digital signal has, at least as far as I was concerned, been put to bed.

In an interview with IGN, someone from Microsoft confirmed that the 360 *can* output a digital signal. Since then, MS has repeatedly stated that they'll continue to watch the market and decide on HDMI support when and if the market need exists.

I know that sometimes, the non-techie spokespeople at MS get things wrong, but the fact that this was a deliberate *clarification* to the HDMI question leads me to believe that it's probably accurate. Link below (replace the <dot> with a real dot and paste it in your browser, since I can't put a link in directly):

gear <dot> ign <dot> com/articles/735/735860p1.html

Cheers!

Will this encoder work for games, or just HD DVDs?

Will this encoder work for games, or just HD DVDs?
I'm not a Microsoft insider, but the only output for a 360 is in the back of the main console. This means there can't be a separate output for the HD HVD and a separate one for the games. One output for everything coming out. There's already a dashboard update to allow you to select 1080p video. For audio, if the 360 becomes HDMI 1.3 compliant, with a dashboard update to allow a user to select raw 'bitstream' output, you could send a Dolby TrueHD signal in its raw form to a processor or A/V receiver that supports TrueHD. Or send DTS, or DTS-HD, or DD, or DD+, or...) That would be the ideal scenario.

Of course, for people without external decoders, the 360 already decodes all of the above formats; it'd be nice, of course, to output them properly, which is the whole point of this thread in the first place. HDMI would help with that, too.

I'm not a Microsoft insider, but the only output for a 360 is in the back of the main console. This means there can't be a separate output for the HD HVD and a separate one for the games. One output for everything coming out.

I think this is in software, though, not hardware. Basically, I'm wondering if this encoder is part of the HD-DVD software, or whether it's in the system software and available for any sound from the system to output to.

Like many of you, I preordered my XBOX360 HDDVD add on and picked it up on Friday. We watched Corpses Bride first which is visually amazing and the sound was ok. I slippped in King Kong and put it on the T-Rex scene and noticed something with the audio, it just didn't seem full. Yes, there was decent bass but it just didn't sound right. I went back and played it again on Saturday at a higher volume and it was louder, but not fuller. I quickly popped in the DVD version in my Sony ES9000 DVD player to compare audio. The DVD version was fuller and sounded more solid.

I know everyone is wowed by the picture, as I am, but the audio decoding by the 360 seems to need some tweaking by Microsoft. (360 update?) I have a good audio setup and it seems to be revealing the add-on's slight flaw. :(

For background on my system:

Lexicon DC-1 PreAmp
Gemstone 200x7 Amp
Definitive Technology BP2002TL(Fronts), C/L/R 2500(Center), and 4 BPX Surrounds.
2 Definitive Tech PF1500 Subs
Sony Pearl 1080p projecor

Anyone else experience this?

This has nothing to do with your setup or the XBox 360, again Universal mastered another title very low. I have to put my receiver into +6 and it still sounds tame, the sound on the SD DVD is much louder and it does make a difference. The picture is great but the sound sucks, there is no getting around it. And it is a mastering problem.

Isn't the volume knob used to correct the volume?

I think this is in software, though, not hardware. Basically, I'm wondering if this encoder is part of the HD-DVD software, or whether it's in the system software and available for any sound from the system to output to.
What I was trying to say (in an admittedly roundabout way, sorry) was that right now, there is only one Xbox dashboard that controls options for all sound coming out of the console, including games and the add-on. If MS followed the existing paradigm for future updates, and you were able to select "DTS" (or bitstream, or anything else) from the dashboard, it would be in that one place, just like you select "Dolby Digital" now. I suppose they could always add a setup option just for HD DVD, though. But since the software encoder lives inside the Xbox firmware (probably), why wouldn't you be able to use it for all sound... just hypothesizing of course. Hmmm, then again will there be any games in DTS (or eventually, DD+/TrueHD)?

Just a quick FYI that we are looking at this problem. I don't have an update on it because I was on vacation for a while. But for now, wanted to let you know that we are finalizing our DTS encoder which once done, should produce the same experience as the Toshiba player which everyone was happy with....

Amirm, first, thanks for even putting yourself out here as a programmer.

Any update on the sound issue? I watched MI-III and my bass shakers in my couch barely ever moved. The subwoofer track does have some signal, but barely. Like it is in night-time mode (dynamic compression). It just really kills the movie.

Thanks

Any new news on when this update will be available?

Any new news on when this update will be available?

Amir mentioned something like a 3 month window. During one of HD DVD event, Amir mentioned that the DTS encoder is completed and handed over to the Xbox- team for implementation. But with the Christmas season, and the CES event in Jan I will be happy to see a patch in late Jan or early Feb 2007.

Microsoft has already stated that they will be reeasing an HDMI cable that connects into the original port of the 360. This is in due part of why they offer 1080p dash update. The thinkg here is what version of HDMI will it be? That sae port carries audio and video. So making an HDMI cable will be one thing that will come out. Do a google search and the proof is in the articles.

i returned my xbox hd dvd ad-on because the audio was horrible compared to sd dvd. Do do we know for sure if its a software or hardware issue? has anyone played a low volume title in a toshiba to see if it truely is the xbox ad-on?
thanks,
todd

i returned my xbox hd dvd ad-on because the audio was horrible compared to sd dvd. Do do we know for sure if its a software or hardware issue? has anyone played a low volume title in a toshiba to see if it truely is the xbox ad-on?
thanks,
todd


If you read up a few posts you would see the dts encoder is finished and has to be approved by ms before release . Guessing late january .

The other problem is known and they should be working on it

As long as I know it is coming, that is good enough for me.

Thanks Microsoft!

if its a hardware problem i would doubt the dts decoder will make a difference. its seemsthere is clearly some othere problem whether software of hardware

I did not use Digital out yet but RED/WHITE analogue on HD KONG was awesome too!

This has nothing to do with your setup or the XBox 360, again Universal mastered another title very low. I have to put my receiver into +6 and it still sounds tame, the sound on the SD DVD is much louder and it does make a difference. The picture is great but the sound sucks, there is no getting around it. And it is a mastering problem.

It's not a mastering problem. It's a player problem. All the Dolby Digtal Plus tracks do not sound dynamic. I tried Last Samurai on both hd and sd and let's just say that the sd was more surround and had more bass. I could turn up the volume on the 360 player and it's still not surround. Training Day's true hd is awesome but Batman Begins is nothing to write home about on the 360 player.

So in conclusion: higher volume doesn't equal better surround sound. Having dynamic range = better surround sound.

I have experienced the HD-DVD add-on's volume to have very little variance and increase. I turn my tv up to 80 and it doesn't sound much louder than 40.

Will the upcoming fix address this issue?

I have experienced the HD-DVD add-on's volume to have very little variance and increase. I turn my tv up to 80 and it doesn't sound much louder than 40.

Will the upcoming fix address this issue?

That is what everyone hopes. But there is no actual confirmation at this time. We know they are adding a DTS decoder/encoder which will be nice, but we don't really know for sure if Microsoft has acknowledged that there is a problem with the DD+. And part of it may truly be a studio mixing choice to ensure that the voices can still be heard over the sound effect. Unfortunately I do not have a Toshiba player so I can't really judge whether the 360 add-on is any worse or not. The boards seems to be split with the majority saying there is an issue, or at least hoping for one!

On my system it is not so much an issue of dynamics as a mater of audio (out of sync which drives me crazy, especially w/ older issues)! I really hope MS provides some audio timing synchronization to mate audio lip movements w/ video of same or else I am returning all this gear!!

Hi All. I Hooked My Xbox 360 Into My Onix A60 Mk Ii Integrated Amp For Both Gaming And Music Playing. The Problem Is When I Throw In A Music Cd I Get Gots. When i Play A Game I Get Incredible Bass But The Music Is Playing But crap Bass. I Can't entirely Say No Bass, When I Turn The Balance Knob Left Or Right Then The Bass Appears . Does Anyone Have Any Suggestions

Microsoft has already stated that they will be reeasing an HDMI cable that connects into the original port of the 360. This is in due part of why they offer 1080p dash update. The thinkg here is what version of HDMI will it be? That sae port carries audio and video. So making an HDMI cable will be one thing that will come out. Do a google search and the proof is in the articles.

What is the source of that "statement". All I have seen is vague crap about when demand exists. 1080P via the dash update without HDMI is like giving someone a car and then having no fuel to use it with.......

Demand exists now:

1. HDMI is the industry standard connection method for 1080P interconnect. Hardly any native 1080P displays support component interconnect on 1080P.
2. MS's VGA implementation lacks proper DDC standards support and in fact doesnt work on my display as well as other models.
3. Even if they fix the bugged VGA, I wont get a full screen 1080P because my display doesnt support it via VGA. Only HDMI - like many others.
4. HDMI would provide scope for proper audio support like DD+, TrueHD and DTS-HD. None of this legacy SPDIF nonsense.

The statement MS made about digital out was also very vague. It doesnt necessarily mean the existing motherboard design can do digital out.

Their marketing spin doctors say MS is about choice with the 360 but the reality is that there really isnt choice, except for not actually enjoying the HD era as it was supposed to be.

And more the point, the main competitor of this product has full support for HDMI 1.3.

Quick Question guys. So when playing Standard DVDs in the 360 there are no sound issues correct? Works just as well as a standard DVD player?

microsoft and the rest of the hd dvd community had better realize that the blu ray 'fanboys' are taking notice of our threads and the issues some of us are experiencing. this type of thing can sway the war in one direction vs. another...

Quick Question guys. So when playing Standard DVDs in the 360 there are no sound issues correct? Works just as well as a standard DVD player?

Upscaling only occurs on VGA due to legal reasons and VGA is bugged for my display because MS doesnt properly support the required VGA timings.

Currently it also lacks DTS playback but it is rumoured that might be coming in a future update.

Aspect ratios are not handled correctly by the MS SD DVD player which gives me grief on 4:3 dvds.

There is no mpeg4-asp decoding despite persistant demand for it, even at a charged cost on xbox live.

Due to these issues I bought a seperate standalone DVD player - a pioneer DV-696-AV-S which has none of these MS flaws and only cost me $AUS230.

Any news on this now that CES is history?

I'm really looking forward to the update that can bring the sound at least in the same ballpark as the amazing pq.

Thanks,
Billbofet

I am extremely disappointed audio plaback movies..thinking of returning

anyone heard anything else on this issue lately?

anyone?

Audio issue? We haven't heard much other than... it's coming.

The May 2007 Xbox 360 update found at
http://www.xbox.com/en-US/hardware/x/xbox360hddvdplayer/downloadredirect.htm

It is supposed to add DTS & other audio format supports
according to here: http://www.majornelson.com/archive/2007/05/15/hd-dvd-auto-update-5-07.aspx?PageIndex=4

QUOTE
"Here are some improvements you’ll notice after the update:

Added option for user to select from the following audio output formats via TOSLINK or HDMI:
o Digital Stereo (2 channel PCM)
o Dolby Digital 5.1
o DTS 5.1
o WMA Pro
Added "Dynamic Range Control" toggle for digital audio output
Improved HD DVD networking support
Improved HD DVD title compatibility
Improved performance with MPEG-4 AVC / H.264
1080p via HDMI is supported on the Xbox 360 Elite with HDCP compliant displays
Improved parental controls"

However, after downloading & burning to CD & using it to update the consol

- I do not have the DTS support nor do I see it in the Xbox 360 consol Audio area.
WMA Pro is showing.

I am using the optical (TOSLINK) cable to my Yam Z-1

Suggestions/comments??

that update come out a month ago. DTS is with in the player while its playing. Hit display on the remote while watching a movie and go to digital audio. The system blade audio and hddvd audio are different.

:)

Tx buddy !!

I got it working now - tx to you :)

I appreciate your reply!