I am trying to determine the best way for controlling the components of my home theater. I have been doing a lot of research and I think that the best way to go given my budget constraints is through a software based approach on my HTPC. I currently have a Sony Remote Commander that I have programmed macros into, however, it just doesn't have the same effect or control capabilities as a customizable interface with feedback.

I would like to control the following components:

Denon 3805 receiver (via rs-232)
Neothing Avalon matrix switcher (via rs-232)
Sony KV34XBR800 HDTV (via IR)
Onkyo 5 disc DVD (via IR)
Tivo (via rs-232)
Comcast Motorola HD-DVR (via IR or it also has firewire and usb ports)
HTPC
Infocus 5000 Projector (via rs-232 or IR)
XBOX 360
Maybe lighting in the future

This is what I want to accomplish:
- I want to have a custom interface for controlling each of my components that can be viewed on either a wireless or wired touchscreen panel (or tablet pc through remote desktop)
- I want to still be able to use my IR remotes for simple things such as flipping the channel or controlling volume.
- I want to control as much as possible through rs-232 so that I can have feedback on the current state of each device on my interface
- I want to be able to control each component independently (e.g. turn the receiver volume up using the front knob) and have the system recognize that change
- I want to be able to launch the software that I currently have on the HTPC (e.g. MCE, ITunes, etc)
- I want to be able to create "macros" such as turn dvd player on, switch receiver to dvd, and turn on projector

My HTPC currently has IR Trans software and a front IR receiver that I use to control MCE. I am planning on installing additional serial ports on the back to hook up the rs-232 devices, and then possibly getting an IR out expansion card for the IR devices. The computer is dual-core with 2gb ram, so I am not worried about processing power with it running double duty as the automation controller and media server.

I have been looking mostly into MainLobby and CQC; however I would be open to other suggestions.

With the MainLobby, I know I would need the MainLobby3 program ($99.99), but would I need the MLServer piece as well since I am running everything off of the server? I guess I don't understand what the server component does. Assuming I need the server, that + ML = 179.99. I then need the switcher plugin ($34.99). What else will I need?

With the CQC, I assume it would just be easiest to get the complete package for $495 right now?

Can all of this even be accomplished as I envision it? Please give me as much feedback as possible. Ishould probably also note that I have no interest in automating anything else with the system.

Your requirements will be fine with either package.

Do you already own the neothings? If not, and if you really do have a tight budget and will be the primary driver in this, you could get an Autopatch or one of the other 8 video switchers that CQC can also control for $400ish off eBay, and with the savings you'll more than pay for CQC. (and yes, just get the $495 package now so you get the full deal for $495).

Keep in mind that even if you don't expand your requirements, that's a whole-house license, so you can distribute control to as many PCs as you want later on (ie, you upgrade machines and won't get much $$ selling your old one, so you designate it as a "server") without paying any additional fees.

I can obviously talk for hours more on your setup, but i'll stop there first to see where you want to learn more.

I am curious which TiVo receiver you have that has RS-232 control.

/carmi

I already own all of my equipment, so for the time being, that is set in stone.

I guess the area I need explanation on is with the licensing and networking control from additional PCs. So, with the CQC, I can install that on my main HTPC, and then maybe a tablet PC to act as a remote without having to use remote desktop?

With MainLobby, is that the same case, or do I put the MLServer and ML on my HTPC, and then have to buy additional licenses of ML for other computers? If that is the case and I chose to only install ML on my HTPC and use remote desktop, would I need MLServer?

I have the Toshiba Tivo/DVD Player model sd-h400. You can find it on the toshiba website, but I am not allowed to post URLs yet.

I never use the DVD part of it. I bought this about 2 years ago because it has a basic version of Tivo that never requires a subscription fee. The only difference that I have noticed between the basic and the subscription versions is that I can only see programming 3 days out instead of 10, but I can still set repeated recordings which is all I care about.

For your CQC question, yes, you can install any and all software bits on any PC or tablet or PDA you have, and not need remote desktop ever again.

For MainLobby, *as I recall*, you must buy at least 1MLServer to go along with MainLobby. The MLServer license allows you to use 5 client connections. So, as long as you only have 1 PC controlling equipment, you only need the 1 MLServer license. It's if you want to use other PCs to control bits that you're going to run into additional MLServer license issues. (i.e., i opted to use my office PC as a 2nd video renderer to go into the autopatch for when it's not in use).

You'd also need to buy:
- Neothings driver ($35)
- (?? Denon Driver) - i see it on this page (http://www.cinemaronline.com/mlserver.drivers.html), as "available for purchase", but there's no place to buy it. It might be a free one, not sure.
- No infocus or tivo driver, if one comes out, that might be either pay or free.

Also, would you want/need DVDLobby/WeatherLobby/CD Ripping/MusicLobby/WebLobby?

BTW, there's a CQC monthly user group webex/teleconference meeting this Sunday, 8:30am PST, if you want to see what it looks like. Check the sticky on the top of the CQC installation forum for login details.

Check out Stardraw Control as well. Requires a little programming but not bad. You can download it for free.

Ben

Are you sure that Toshiba has RS-232 control? There are many other differences between TiVo Basic and full TiVo service, including Home Media and true season passes.

/carmi

Here are some snaps from my own CQC system, which is a theater oriented system. This is making use of some of the new 2.0 features, such as the new popup interface feature, which I'm using to provide a preview before committing to playing a selection. I'm doing ripped CDs (via our new repository manager) and DVDs are changer based.

http://www.charmedquark.com/Web2/Downloads/MiscImages/V17Previews/DeansV2Intfs/Overlay_BrowseMedia.jpg

http://www.charmedquark.com/Web2/Downloads/MiscImages/V17Previews/DeansV2Intfs/Overlay_BrowsePopup.jpg


You can see my system in the Gallery tab of the web site (the Small Apartment system gallery), but that's the old 1.6 version of it. I'll be updating my gallery for the 2.0 version here soon when the 2.0 version of the web site is uploaded.

IVB - I think I understand what you are saying. If I want to avoid remote desktop, I am looking at $179.99 for MLServer and ML on the HTPC, plus another $99.99 for a second ML on a tablet. I then have at least $34.99 in plugins, so I am at a minimum of $315.00

Would I need to purchase the various Lobby packages (e.g. DVDLobby), or can I make it work with the existing software that I have now? I mainly use MCE, iTunes, and the Nero Ultimate suite.

Dean - Does CQC have built in support for the denon, neothings, tivo, and infocus? Also, how does it handle interfacing with existing software programs?

Two additional questions:
1) How do you program the IR codes that the system sends out to the devices controlled via IR?

2) Assuming I have to buy 3 plugins, 2 licenses, and one server for Main Lobby, that would be around $385.00. The CQC is $495 + $95/year maintenance. Can someone justify the cost difference to me?

IVB - I think I understand what you are saying. If I want to avoid remote desktop, I am looking at $179.99 for MLServer and ML on the HTPC, plus another $99.99 for a second ML on a tablet. I then have at least $34.99 in plugins, so I am at a minimum of $315.00


I don't think you need ML on the tablet if it's "just" a client, and not actually controlling anything. I'm not positive though. But, if you ever need to use a 2nd PC for control purposes (i.e., use something like my office PC to render TV/DVD), then you'd need ML for that.


Would I need to purchase the various Lobby packages (e.g. DVDLobby), or can I make it work with the existing software that I have now? I mainly use MCE, iTunes, and the Nero Ultimate suite.

I'm not actually sure - when I was evaluating it, I was going with their pre-generated interfaces. Honestly this is one of Cinemar's advantages over CQC - the availability of "pre-built" interfaces for the average consumer. CQC is more targeted towards the professional or pro-sumer, who doesn't mind building his own interfaces. It will absolutely take more time to learn & setup, but once you do, it'll be much more of a "custom fit" to your needs, which will only drive WAF that much higher.

Dean - Does CQC have built in support for the denon, neothings, tivo, and infocus? Also, how does it handle interfacing with existing software programs?

I happen to know since I also have a Denon3805. If you look at the Learn.Supported Devices page on the charmedquark site, you'll see all the devices that have current support. There's about 100 there. There's another 46 in development or beta (http://www.charmedquark.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=2294), and I think Dean said about 30 will be in the V2.0 product.

There's support for the Denon and Neothings, I see a beta version of an Infocus IN74/IN76 projector but not sure how that maps to yours. Nothing for the tivo.

CQC has an "app control server" that can kick off existing programs, and has current drivers for SageTV, TheaterTek, Zoomplayer. I have it kick off iTunes, but then bypass CQC and use a mouse to control it.

Two additional questions:
1) How do you program the IR codes that the system sends out to the devices controlled via IR?

use a USB-UIRT for this, there's a native driver for it. I spoof this so I can use my MX850's pause button to have CQC send a pause command to either SageTV/TheaterTek/ZoomPlayer/Sony777, based on which one I happen to be using in that room at that time.


2) Assuming I have to buy 3 plugins, 2 licenses, and one server for Main Lobby, that would be around $385.00. The CQC is $495 + $95/year maintenance. Can someone justify the cost difference to me?
Apples and oranges. For MainLobby, all you get is the software one-time, upgrades may cost you $$. I know they do small point versions for free (i.e., 3.00.38 is free. 3.1 would be a paid upgrade).

For CQC, the $95/year gets you free minor upgrades. (i.e., 2.1 is free, but 3.0 will cost you).

Also, there's much much much more functionality in CQC than in that $385 ML package. There's a robust event manager, a PDA viewer, a CD ripping engine, a media repository that'll download CD/DVD art off the internet, a web server, and hardware support for over 100 hardware devices. This means that if:
1) that Neothings breaks, or
2) you decide you want to upgrade your 3805,
3) or you want to install CQC on more PCs,
4) you decide you want to add music zones
you won't have to pay any more $$. You're effectively "locked in" at $495 plus $95/year.

At $385, you stand the chance of having to pay more $$ for stuff over time. For me personally, that would have meant $1500 in Cinemar software costs for the same thing that I do now.

In addition, keep in mind that it's on sale now. Once V2.0 goes final, what you get today for $495 (full license) will be $895 (full license). The base package will still be $495, but most folks would want at least 1-2 of the modules at $100/pop.

Honestly, i'm sure either package will be a great choice for you, and frankly it sounds like for your needs, even the $$ amount is generally in the same ballpark. The big question is simply would you prefer to go with
A) a package that's squarely aimed at the consumer (MainLobby), might be a little easier to initially setup, but certainly more limited in functionality, or
B) a package that's squarely aimed at the professional, has a staggering amount of functionality, and is easily implementable by the pro-sumer. There's nothing technical involved, but as there's no pre-canned interfaces, there's more work than an off-the-shelf package.

For CQC, the $95/year gets you free minor upgrades. (i.e., 2.1 is free, but 3.0 will cost you).


Actually, that's not correct. It will get you all upgrades that come out that year. The issue is minor new components vs. major new components. All the existing optional components so far (web server, event server, XML gateway, and app control) have been of the minor component type, and any new ones like that will just get added to your license when the come out.

The only major component so far is the upcoming media system in 2.0. It is half price for existing customers, and of course is included in the price for new customers at this point. Just by the nature of their being major new chunks of functionality there won't be as many of those as there will be minor ones.

The primary justifications for the price difference are that a) with CQC everything is in the package, so you'll never pay to add support for a new device (unless you buy a driver that some third party has written and decided to charge for, which has never happened so far) and b) it's just a more advanced product in general.

Actually, that's not correct. It will get you all upgrades that come out that year.

oh! Ok then, there you go, cheaper than I thought. For $95/year, you're totally covered for upgrades. Keep in mind that for the recent round of Cinemar updates, folks had to pay the following:
- $100 for MainLobby
- $20 for each (.)Lobby upgrade

Ok then, so frankly in that case, the Total Cost of Ownership for CQC is definitely cheaper than MainLobby, even for a smaller install like yours.

First of all - thank you all for your timely and informative comments.

My major struggle is with initial investment vs ROI. Assuming I would only need one client machine, that would make the initial cost of MainLobby ~ $285. I would then have to buy any future drivers as I update equipment (which I may not do - I am more inclined to leave it alone once I get it running).

I understand that CQC is a more "feature rich" package; however, I am not sure that I will benefit from that. With CQC, in order to be eligible for future drivers, it seems as though I would be locked into the $95/year, which bothers me since I am not sure if I would ever take advantage of that. Dean, do you have any future plans for allowing for al a carte purchases of just the drivers and upgrades that are needed?

It seems to me that the best first step would be to trial each package to see which one I like and fits my needs best. Dean - how long until the special runs up (i.e. any idea when 2.0 will be released?)

On a separate note, my HTPC does not have any serial ports. In order to control via rs-232, is it better to add a serial PCI card and then run DB9/DB9 between, or is it just as good to run a DB9 to usb cable?

On a separate note, my HTPC does not have any serial ports. In order to control via rs-232, is it better to add a serial PCI card and then run DB9/DB9 between, or is it just as good to run a DB9 to usb cable?

Putting multi-port card in the box is preferable to external ports, if it's reasonable to go that route. It's lower level and one less thing that can become unplugged or messed up by accident, and it's usually cheaper. But an external USB based multi-port box is also a reasonable solution if that's really easier for some reason. The Edgeport boxes are known to be solid.

It seems to me that the best first step would be to trial each package to see which one I like and fits my needs best. Dean - how long until the special runs up (i.e. any idea when 2.0 will be released?)

I'm probably going to press the '2 week warning buzzer' here soon. It depends on whether we want to wait for the .Net Viewer to be ready or go ahead and get 2.0 out and let the DNV come along afterwards.


I understand that CQC is a more "feature rich" package; however, I am not sure that I will benefit from that. With CQC, in order to be eligible for future drivers, it seems as though I would be locked into the $95/year, which bothers me since I am not sure if I would ever take advantage of that

I would be willing to bet you'd pay more than that (on average, though not necessary spread out evenly every year) if you go the other way. And it's not just drivers, it's all releases. So 3.0 and 4.0 and so forth as we all slide into our golden years together.

Quote:
On a separate note, my HTPC does not have any serial ports. In order to control via rs-232, is it better to add a serial PCI card and then run DB9/DB9 between, or is it just as good to run a DB9 to usb cable?


Putting multi-port card in the box is preferable to external ports, if it's reasonable to go that route. It's lower level and one less thing that can become unplugged or messed up by accident, and it's usually cheaper. But an external USB based multi-port box is also a reasonable solution if that's really easier for some reason. The Edgeport boxes are known to be solid.

Actually, I was referring to either using a internal serial card, or just bypassing the serial port on the HTPC completely and running a usb to DB9 cable between the computer and the component. Thus, each rs-232 controlled component would be connected to its own usb port on the HTPC.

It seems to me that the best first step would be to trial each package to see which one I like and fits my needs best.
2 thoughts:
1) Don't bother with V1.6 which is the one under the "try" tab - start with the 2.0Beta, link is here (http://www.charmedquark.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?p=39442#post39442)
2) There's a monthly CQC user group webex/teleconference this Sunday @8:30am PST/11:30am EST. If you can connect in from the machine you'll test it out on as the server, we can help you with the install/setup/basic stuff.

BTW, I use an internal Moxa 8-port serial card. Looks like they're down to $40-$60 on eBay.

For controlling the IR out of the computer, you suggested the usb-irt. I want to avoid having to blast IR signals, so would something like this work just as well for hardwiring the IR ports?
http://www.digitalconnection.com/products/remote/ir500p.asp

I believe there's a device driver for that in CQC already, but I don't personally use it so I cannot speak to it. You should ask over on the CQC forums, I think some folks there are using it.

I would suggest you also look at Girder and Netremote. Girder would run as your back end with plugins controlling all of your equipment via serial or IR. Netremote would run as your front end on a laptop, pocket pc, tablet, UMPC, etc. Netremote also has a plugin for two way control of Media Center. X-10 kepads can also control girder, so you can push one button on the wall when you enter you theater to turn the entire system on, change to the proper inputs, and dim the lights to your preset levels (after allowing enough time to get to your seat), etc.

In my theater I use netremote/girder to control:

Anthem D1 PreAmp (Serial Control)
Harmon Kardon Amp - For Bass Shakers (Serial Control)
Sanyo Projctor (Serial Control)
Lighting - 6 Zones, X-10 (Serial Control)
Pioneer 59AVI (IR)
HTPC - Media Center - (TCP/IP)
XBOX 360 (IR)
HD - TIVO (IR)
Secondary Display - Plasma @ the bar (Serial Control)
Webcams - 6 (web-browser plugin for netremote)

I'm still using the last free version of girder (3.2) and netremote is $89 i think for the latest version and the designer software. You can download most of the serial control files for devices from the girder website. If one has not been created for your equipment, you can create it yourself with the generic serial plugin (free). I created all of the serial control myself (just need the documentation for the commands). The USB-UIRT does have 2 mini-jack emitters, so they would function the same was as the internal card you mention above.

Dean: Does CQC support IR receiving and learning of codes from IRTrans? My HTPC case has a built in IR receiver which is run by the IR Trans software. I'm picturing my system as receiving codes from that, going through CQC, and then being blasted out through an R2DI card.

Dean: Does CQC support IR receiving and learning of codes from IRTrans? My HTPC case has a built in IR receiver which is run by the IR Trans software. I'm picturing my system as receiving codes from that, going through CQC, and then being blasted out through an R2DI card.


It only supports learning via the USB-UIRT currently. The R2DI doesn't support learning, only receiving, and I'm just now enabling the receiving part of it (waiting for a receiver dongle to arrive.)

But, if you end up getting a UIRT for learning/receiving, then you wouldn't need to wait for (or use) the receiving support in the R2DI. It works well for blasting and has four zones.


Actually, I was referring to either using a internal serial card, or just bypassing the serial port on the HTPC completely and running a usb to DB9 cable between the computer and the component. Thus, each rs-232 controlled component would be connected to its own usb port on the HTPC.

I would very much avoid USB dongle type cables. They seem to cause no end of problems. If you are going to go USB, then get an external multi-port USB to serial box such as an Edgeport. They are quite reliable. I had one in constant use for well over a year without any problems.

But, if you can do an internal board, I'd go that route. It probably won't actually be any more reliable (since the external multi-port box will be quite reliable), but it's just a safer choice and makes less use of high level operating system functionality. If they are equally convenient, go with the simpler solution.

Maybe I didn't phrase that well. I only want to use the R2DI for sending IR codes. The IR receiver built into my case and the IRTrans software are capable of learning IR codes. Can those IR codes be used by CQC? Or MainLobby?

Sorry, feeling a bit slow here - do you want that IR receiver and ITrans software to receive the IR code and have it tell CQC or MainLobby to do something?

Maybe I didn't phrase that well. I only want to use the R2DI for sending IR codes. The IR receiver built into my case and the IRTrans software are capable of learning IR codes. Can those IR codes be used by CQC? Or MainLobby?

I understood you, but probably I just didn't phrase my answer well. The answer is, for CQC, no we don't support the IRTrans. We do support the USB-UIRT, which should be easy enough to mount in the case as well and isn't expensive. It can provide learning and receiving. We also support the R2DI, for blasting right now, but I'm about to add support for receiving to it. But, if you had the UIRT, that would provide receiving and learning, and you could use the R2DI for 4 zones of blasting. You can use them both together without any problem.

If you mean can the captured IR codes from the IRTrans be converted to something that can be used by CQC, I don't know. It would depend on waht format it is in and whether they have a well defined conversion for something like Pronto format.

Sorry, feeling a bit slow here - do you want that IR receiver and ITrans software to receive the IR code and have it tell CQC or MainLobby to do something?

Exactly.

Ok, Dean answered your question about CQC, and I doubt that MainLobby has a driver for it either, but I could be wrong about that. Good question for the Cinemar forums.

Does anyone else have any experience with either, or both, of these packages? I would certainly like to hear more opinions and even a description of how you are using the software.

If you are looking at MainLobby then you need the ML Cient/Server combo to start with. The base install includes a 1 way serial driver that handles hex and ascii so you should be able to control all the serial devices you have. Additonally I would add an 4 or 8 port serial card or a IP serial device like a Global Cache boxes and a USBUIRT IR tranceiver. I personally am not a fan of usb to serial adapters. I have had enough of them die, drop connection, redetect as new devices to never touch one again (nothing like programing a router only to have it loose connection because you plugged in a new USB device).That get you 5 client connection and 1 server, IR control and serial.

If you need 2 way serial control there is an free 2-way serial plug in that is user supported and a new Cinemar supported 2 way serial plugin that is in beta now. Adding the Neothings driver will make it easier to control the matrix switch since all the hard parts are already done. The Denon plugin is in late beta now. They are verifying the functions across the various models. Most of the test have been done with the 4306 and there are post of people testing it with the 4802, 5803 and 3805. You will have to check the message board to see what theyare saying

http://www.cinemaronlineforums.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=90

The biggest difference between CQC and ML is the mindset behind the products. CQC is a developers kit, ML is a preconfigured interface. Both have advantages and disadvantages. It really comes down to how much time do you want to put into it.

Here are some examples of my ML interfaces:
Gallery of all the various interfaces I have been working on
http://project2501.tzo.com/gallery/automation

http://project2501.tzo.com/gallery/the-screening-room
http://www.cinemaronlineforums.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8010
Sat/TiVo Controls
http://project2501.tzo.com/opening-cinema-tivo3.jpg
Horoscope
http://project2501.tzo.com/horoscope.jpg

http://project2501.tzo.com/gallery/smoothxl
http://www.cinemaronlineforums.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9191
ELK
http://project2501.tzo.com/albums/smoothxl/avsystem_rmml2501_i.sized.jpg
Security Cameras
http://project2501.tzo.com/albums/smoothxl/avsystem_rmml2501_f.sized.jpg

http://project2501.tzo.com/gallery/futuratheater
http://www.cinemaronlineforums.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9504
DVDLobby
http://project2501.tzo.com/albums/futuratheater/dvd.sized.jpg
TV/Movie Control
http://project2501.tzo.com/albums/futuratheater/remote_basic02.sized.jpg

I have come from xlobby to CQC.

What words of wisdom can I offer?

The support offered on the CQC forums is nothing short of amazing.
It is an amazing stable programme; the new beta we have been playing with is more than stable enough to be a release client!

Download the trial and give it a go, there are plenty of people on the forum who will be more than happy to help you out.

cavalier,

I can put my vote in for CQC. I've never played around too much with ML so I can't compare the two for you. I have attempted to use some of the others such as XLobby and even played with Girder for a while but couldn't get the results I hoped for.

Like most automation project, I'm trying to integrate several unrelated components into something that can be easily controlled in the way I want to control it. I have whole-house audio (all file based music), distributed video, security, HVAC, sprinkler system, pool, driveway gate, etc.

My background is in industrial automation but only from the management side of things and not programming. I understand what I see and can talk relatively intelligently with programming folks but couldn't write code from scratch if I had too.

I stumbled across CQC here at AVS and researched what I could. It didn't take long to realize the power (read:flexibility) with CQC. It became clear that I could control things they way I wanted too. For me the real question with CQC was could I control WHAT I wanted too.

After reading the forums for a bit, I downloaded the trial package. It took about 2 days and some help from a couple folks on the forum and I had myself enough of a interface to realize that I had the skills to get something workable in place. Another aspect to my project is, as it likely is with most DIY'ers, a constant work in progress. While I said I had a 'whole-house audio' setup, it's not completely installed - at least not to where I want it yet. Mostly I'm waiting on our ability to remodel a room or build a planned addition to fully complete it. CQC allows me to easily adapt my interfaces to accommodate my progress without getting a third party programmer involved.

I have to admit I was a bit daunted by the trial package. I suppose I expected more than was installed. Sure all the components were installed, but I couldn't SEE the path forward as easily as I expected. It took a little investigating and I realized that CQC was a lot like Microsoft Excel - a blank slate with a TON of possibilities. There are a lot of parts/pieces built in and available to use in the way you need.

In the last 6 months or so, I have witnessed an amazing number of new drivers either in the works or completed. The forums have seen quite a few new(er) members come aboard who are skilled, open minded and willing to help out. It's a pretty good group of folks for sure. On top of the support for the software is incredible.

The new media repository should be a great stepping stone onto the next level of functionality. While the foundation is just about to be laid with the newest release, the future functionality should prove to make CQC best in class when it comes to how you can interact with various media resources. Certainly on par with anything else available in any price range. All while maintaining the flexibility of letting me decide how I want to build the interface itself.

Anyway, sorry for the length, but it's hard to envision going wrong with CQC. Worth every penny I've paid.

IVB made reference earlier about a users conference call this Sunday. Feel free to join in and get a flavor for the software and some of the awesome support available from the community.

Keith

I have a great deal of experience with CQC and very very little with ML.

However, I do have experience with other home control systems such as HomeSeer so I think I can offer a little bit of an opinion that might help you.

The number one thing I learned from using other HA software products is that the support just does not come close to the support provided by the CharmedQuark team. So if for no other reason I would recommend CQC just for the support.

A good forum to search is www.cocoontech.com. Do a search for ML and CQC and see what the users over there are saying.

My personal opinion may be a little biased because I have been following CQC for about 2 years now. I have been using CQC since the 1.3 or 1.4 version. I like CQC because when an issue comes up where you want to do something but can not because of a minor limitation, Dean is always willing to take a look at the problem and work with you to solve those problems. For example: I was writing a web page for my CQC server and wanted to added user level based security. All I did was ask and sure enough the ability to determine what level(Admin, Normal, Limited) a user is during the loading of a web page is now built into 2.0.

CQC is virtually bug free. The bugs that do exist are very very minor and are fixed as soon as they are discovered.

The time between releases is very short with CQC with the exception of this major release. CQC usually puts out an upgrade about once a month or maybe even more often than that. And best of all Dean provides a daily or bi-daily update of the progress on the next release. So you are never left in the dark about weather a feature is going to make it into the next release.

In CQC you do not have to pay for Drivers or Graphics or minor upgrades. There are lots of DIYers like Me and IVB who are willing to work with you to solve any problems you have. Other members are even willing to help you with your graphic needs.

Creating custom interfaces is very simple. Just find the images you want to use for buttons and backgrounds and start adding them. 95% of creating interfaces is point and click. The other 5% is well documented on the CQC web page which you probably will have a hard time find with other software. Dean takes pride in his documentation. Now you even have video tutorials created by the developer himself.

Since I purchase CQC 2 years ago I have only paid $75 to CQC and that was just last month. I wanted to upgrade to their new media server which was considered a major upgrade.

Just visit the CQC forums one any given day and you will notice that the amount of user support and support from the developer him self is insane. I almost think dean has a clone. I don't know how one man can possibly visit not only his own forum and support his own customers but then branch out to other forums and assist potential customers all while developing CQC and putting out releases faster than any other software company I know.

I actually can tell you how he does all that. It is because he is a GOOD programmer and is writing GOOD software that does not require him to spend hours appon hours fixing problems. His software works unlike other companies I read about and have used.

On a side note. If you think that you have all the equipment you will ever want I can honestly say I don't think that is true. CQC provides the ability for any user to add support to virtually any device. So when you go to buy your next A/V device anyone can write or help you write a driver to control that device. The point I was trying to make here is that it would probably be free. From what I read if you needed support for a device in ML that you would not only have to pay for that support but you would need to convince someone to add that support which may not be likely to happen. Sorry if I am wrong about this assumption.

Good Luck
Hope to see you on the CQC forums
Dave

cavalier,
I've been a CQC user for about 3 years now from I'd guess version 0.9, 1.0 or thereabouts. First off I can second what Dave, Keith and simon have posted. Support is amazing and the software is rock solid stable. I'm a non-programmer type so the learning curve was a little steep so I tested the support part more then a little.

From the looks of it you'd be controlling much of what I do. Just the theater without a great deal home automation. That may come later for me but wasn't the prime driver. Using CQC I was able to set it up fairly automagically so I could teach anyone to run it in short order. Prior to that it was rather difficult and intensive long term training sessions for anyone that had only pressed the on button for a TV.

I'd found CQC while searching for an alternate to Crestron/AMX. No doubt at all that either one could have done everything I wanted and then some and up front costs where only a little cheaper for the basic set I needed. However, I wouldn't have been able to make changes, add components and expand as time went on without calling in the pros. After searching I came across CQC, the various lobby packages and girder. When reading through the available info and forums I came away with a couple very distinct impressions. Girder and the lobbies were first off front ends to control and HTPC that with add ons could do what I needed. Second was that CQC was designed from the bottom up as a control system that could grow to do literally anything I wanted without additional plugins stuck on to it. The way CQC has grown since I committed has confirmed this original impression. About the only limits is my imagination or abilities.

In reading through your wishlist one thing I'm not sure about is serial control of Tivo. My currrent S3 doesn't have an RS-232 input and my old Sony only had a connection to control satellite STB's. I couldn't find the owners manual or any indication of the serial protocol on Toshibas website for your unit to find out it serial control was possible or if only did what my old Sony does. That's not to say it's impossible but that I couldn't find it.

I don't know the answers to your IR question either. I can say the USB-UIRT works well and that the support Jon Rhees provides for it is quite good also.

I'd suggest spending some time on the CQC forums and downloading the trial version. This will cost nothing but some time. Do the same thing on any other package you are seriously considering. Test drives can answer a host of questions.

Not sure I can add much except I also use CQC. I would recommend looking around the CQC forums as well as join in on the user conference call. I think you'll find that the support from the users as well as Dean is second to none. There is always someone to help you if you need it. That's one of the biggest reasons I went with CQC. Also, I looked at serveral other products and didn't like the idea that I was going to have to pay for additional drivers and things like that. Sure, with CQC there's the maintenance fee, but for what you get, it's well worth. My vote is for CQC.

I can also give my vote for CQC. Having demo'd both ML and CQC, I decided on CQC for a 'total' package. Not to mention that drivers are pretty plentiful and there are lots of folks who write them either for free in their spare time or at a small cost (for their time).

I also have the SP5000 projector and as of now, there is no driver for it. As soon as I get a driver completed for my matrix switcher (in progress now), I plan on having someone write a driver for my SP5000. The good thing with CQC is that if someone writes a driver for me, it becomes available to everyone. So with that in mind, the SP5000 driver will be coming soon. :-D

Like IVB mentioned, if youre still on the fence, join the web conference on Sunday. You can see how all of us are using CQC with some real world examples.

- Jason

Wow - there seems to be quite a consensus. I am in the process of testing out both packages, so I will be sure to keep asking questions as I come across them.

On that note, I received the following private message today, and I was wondering if any of you are part of this "service"? Perhaps I am a bit too worrisome, but I am not sure I trust letting others take control of my computer.

If you decide to go with CQC or at least give it a try then you may want to download MSN Messenger and then PM me you MSN address.

We have a network of users who have installed MSN so that they can get help and provide help to others using the Remote Assistance software built into Windows XP

Remote Assistance would allow one of use to remotely view your desktop just like Remote Desktop and if you provide us permission we could even control your desktop and assist you with the installation or any else you might need help with.

Various people do use that scheme. I cannot say how secure MSN Msg is, since I don't use it and haven't looked into it.

Dollars to donuts thats from squintz - he's the resident MSN god. It's more than likely legit. If you PM me the members name, i'll verify - i have a master list of the MSN handles for the CQC folk.

I can also help out over MSN, although I gotta admit - it's not security, but the dang latency that makes it so hard to use MSN.

Cavalier240,
You might be interested in this brand new product that Cinemar has just released
www.cinemaronline.com/hardware.irsolutions.html
It is a 6 zone IR transmit / Learn / IR input USB device. It installs in an extra PC expansion slot for a very clean installation.

We currently are displaying it and the rest of MainLobby suite at the EHX show in Long Beach. The majority of our demonstrations over the last two days have been to integrators and dealers that are comparing our solution to Crestron and AMX from a capability perspective, ease of programming and configuration and price point.

From quickly reading through this thread, the majority of the MainLobby comments and opinions are dated about 2 years ago. Since then MainLobby has been completely rewritten and is as reliable and robust as any of the other offerings mentioned here. You will not run out of things you want to do. We also have as extensive (or more) of a driver collection, growing at an ever increasing rate.

From what our dealers and customers have told us, that have extensively used both CQC and MainLobby, ML is much easier to get over the learning curve and get real things done. Regarding IVBs comment that dealers have no problem spending lots of time configuring systems - that is not what ALL of the dealers are telling us at this DEALER show. Time is Money. What's your time worth?

Both CQC and ML will meet your needs. I am pretty confident about that because both do just about more than any HA / HT product on the market (at any price).

smoothtlk,

I'm glad that you have joined our discussion. As a representative of MainLobby, hopefully you can answer some licensing questions for me. I have done searches on your forum, but have not found any clear, concise answers.

As I understand it, I will have to run MLServer on my HTPC which will be controlling the devices. I will also have to run MainLobby on that machine to get the nice interfaces that I design. Now is the confusing part. I also have a laptop and an office machine, so 2 questions:
1) If I want to be able to view my GUIs from either/both of these machines and send commands through my HTPC to my devices, can I do this, or do I need additional licenses? For example, I want to control my music volume from my laptop.
2) If I want to modify my user interfaces from either additional machine, and then have those modifications reflected on my HTPC server, what do I need to do that?

I am looking for a definitive answer of the numbers and types of programs/licenses it would take to achieve said objectives.

On a separate note, I have started playing with each demo. First impressions are this: MainLobby reminds me of Microsoft Visio, where all of the cool icons are already created and you just drag and drop. CQC was very accurately described already as being like Excel - although even at that, I have not found it too difficult at all - the user documentation is excellent.

Cavalier420 I have used both products extensively and use Mainlobby for at least 8 months and then I switched to CQC which in my opinion is a superior product and has much better support than Mainlobby/Cinemar.

As for questions comments being dated 2 years ago..thats the opinion of smoothtlk someone who is affiliated with Cinemar, I used it from last June until February 2006 so even though it may have changed a little since February the attitude of the company hasn't and I'm sure they still say "Coming soon" every other week which in Cinemar Lingo means "Next year"

CQC is very easy to program and integrate and don't let a person from a competing company who is not a user of the product try to make it sound as though you can not do it.

As for drivers and both companies, CQC definetly without a doubt has more quality drivers in my opinion and lets get one thing straight..they are FREE! Every driver Cinemar seems to come out with they nickel and dime people for and this was yet another reason I left the product and started using CQC.

I'm sure David will reply something stupid like "Time is money and drivers cost to make", while this may be true the users of CQC and the company itself give away virtually every driver for FREE..time is money but greed is greed..enough said.

Another thing while on the subject of *drivers* , read through the list of drivers from both companies and see what actually is a device driver and simply a plugin..there is a huge difference and if you are looking for actual drivers that control hardware CQC definitely has the advantage.

Time is money and whats my time worth? Well it sure the hell wasn't worth the 8 months or so I wasted dealing with Cinemar and a product that never came..over those 8 months David can confirm(I doubt he will) the product never had even 1 update to the core product, while he may say shortly after I stopped using it a completely new version was released it probably will deny that from June 2005 up until the time I left every week he would say "coming soon" but yet nothing came and when it did I was expected to pay more for really nothing in my opinion...he claims I paid a fair price to use Mainlobby that long, I totally disagree I shouldn't have to pay for a buggy product and then wait almost a year and then pay more for another version and likely not have any of the previous problems I seen fixed...I could really care less about some new fangled version if old bugs or problems still exist.

David is correct in his one comment that both CQC and ML will meet your needs but I can assure you CQC will do it more reliably, I have used both products and can say without a doubt CQC is a more stable product...I am not affiliated with either company in a business sense so I think my word on reliability and stability can be trusted from a end user perspective.

Last but not least, CQC users such as myself donate plenty of free graphics for you to use and you wont be charged money for XM radio channel logos or DirecTV logos....before I have someone say they sell them because some users cannot make graphics or because graphics take time and cost money lets get one thing straight..the graphics they are reselling for XM radio or DirecTV are gathered from xmradio.com or lyngsat.com and maybe a couple are touched up and resold...reselling network logos :-) classy..real classy :-)

I have created the same XM radio graphics which you can download free for personal use and they weren't simply downloaded from the xmradio webpage and resold for profit..sheesh how low can you go :-)

Also don't bother wasting money on Alarm keypad graphics, I have made better ones for the Elk and Caddx and they are also free for personal use for all CQC users.

David and Mario from Cinemar both know I offered to provide free graphics for their users, they did not seem to approve of my plan as that might take money away from them or something so instead I moved onto another product that doesn't even care about nickel and diming people for graphics and instead concentrate on a stable and reliable control system.

It doesn't really matter how "Flashy" your touchscreen looks if it doesn't run reliably..you can make your CQC system look anyway you want and don't let others try to feed you a line of crap that Mainlobby looks better...perhaps if you spend $500 extra on graphics it might look slightly better but then again you could just download free graphics from CQC users and have the same sort of looks or do like I do and make your own.

I can make a template for a component in CQC editor and export it will all graphics as an importable package so another user can import and use it..I'm pretty sure you can't do this with Mainlobby and if you could you would probably have to buy David lunch or something for that sorta feature or pay just $49.99 which in Cinemar lingo means "We charge this because programming takes time and our dealers agree we should charge end users to export packages they wish to share, if your not happy with this don't pay and you won't have the feature"

Have a look here at many free graphics I offer for CQC..many more to come..also check out the CQC forums and see what other talented users have created and offer for FREE..none of us is looking to make profit from graphics/drivers and we all share and try to help each other build our dream systems, to most of us this has nothing to do with money and we are simply looking to build our own "Crestron on the cheap" and you won't find a more helpful and freindly group of people than the users of CQC.

http://www.touchscreengraphics.com/gallery2/main.php

http://www.cqcusers.com:8080/index.php?option=com_uhp&task=view&Itemid=30&id=150

I can make a template for a component in CQC editor and export it will all graphics as an importable package so another user can import and use it..I'm pretty sure you can't do this with Mainlobby and if you could you would probably have to buy David lunch or something for that sorta feature or pay just $49.99 which in Cinemar lingo means "We charge this because programming takes time and our dealers agree we should charge end users to export packages they wish to share, if your not happy with this don't pay and you won't have the feature"

Have a look here at many free graphics I offer for CQC..many more to come..also check out the CQC forums and see what other talented users have created and offer for FREE..none of us is looking to make profit from graphics/drivers and we all share and try to help each other build our dream systems, to most of us this has nothing to do with money and we are simply looking to build our own "Crestron on the cheap" and you won't find a more helpful and freindly group of people than the users of CQC.

http://www.touchscreengraphics.com/gallery2/main.php

http://www.cqcusers.com:8080/index.php?option=com_uhp&task=view&Itemid=30&id=150

Very nice. So if I wanted to use a screen someone else created, I could just import it into my system? For example, I am very impressed with this Denon screen: http://www.charmedquark.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=2857&highlight=denon

Since I have the same model Denon, if he were to send that to me, I could then import it into my system? Can all the programmed buttons be transferred as well since it would be used on the exact same device?

I recently embarked on automating my home theater as well. I wanted to get away from the Universal Remote Control style of system (MX-3000 / pronto) and wanted something a little more robust (larger touch screen, DVD and CD images ect). Both of these products being discussed would greatly exceed my immediate needs.

I went ahead and purchased ML and added DVD Lobby as well. I hope to add Music Lobby and Weather Lobby in the future.

While my system is not up and running yet (HT still being built), I've found the folks over at Cinemar to be very helpful. I post on their forums and I have a response from someone (usually David or Mario) very quickly. In addition, I've had numerous people send me their layouts for me to poke around in and learn from. While you can't share licensed material (plug-ins and image libaries), you can share layouts and non-licensed material. I have not telephoned for support but they do offer that personal touch if needed.

I orginally planned to control:
Panasonic AX-100
Denon receiver (not purchased yet, model # not decided either)
Sony CX777ES 400 Disc Changer
Lumagen Video Processor
Panamorph UH350/M350 anamorphic lens for 2.35:1 CIH screen
Screen Masking System (possibly HTIQ system)
Whole home lighting (x10 and Insteon)

Since playing with ML, I now plan to add Music Lobby to control my whole home audio system and WeatherLobby just because it looks so cool on the main page.

Good luck with your project.

- T.Wells

Very nice. So if I wanted to use a screen someone else created, I could just import it into my system? For example, I am very impressed with this Denon screen: http://www.charmedquark.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=2857&highlight=denon

Since I have the same model Denon, if he were to send that to me, I could then import it into my system? Can all the programmed buttons be transferred as well since it would be used on the exact same device?

Yep, that's the theory. There's a few steps to follow, not sure if jpants has ever tried exporting templates for others to use, so it might take a little work to get it right, but we could help out with that.

I need to add the caveat that since that's his work, i cannot guarantee he's willing to share, but given that he's written drivers and shared freely with the community, so I would ASSume he would.

Actually, if you can make it to that Sunday webex, you should ask him that soon, and we'll knock this one off then. You could be ready to go with CD/DVD/weather with that denon page in short order.

Since I have the same model Denon, if he were to send that to me, I could then import it into my system? Can all the programmed buttons be transferred as well since it would be used on the exact same device?

Sometimes templates are hard to share because they are designed to coordinate a lot of devices (some of which you don't have) in a very specific way (that isn't the way you want.) But for a template like that one, which is probably solely dealing with the partiuclar device you are interested in, it should be trivial for you to use it. He would just need to export it, and then you load the Denon driver and import the template.

CQC ships with a limited graphic set so of course the community will add to it. It has nothing to do with the product itself only with the user community. Maybe there are more graphic design users using the CQC than ML. Or maybe users aren't happy with the default graphics. Either way it is somewhat of a non issue.u

On the MainLobby graphics front, from what I have seen alot of the users tend to stick with the default interface because it is easier. It is sort of the IE browser effect. Why install new graphics if the ones already there work fine? ML ships with a large set that seems to grow with every build. Combine that with the ability to handle jpeg and swf files and you can pretty much add what every you want very easily.

As a side note, every part of all 3 interfaces I show in this thread are available to the entire group of ML and CQC users if they want them. It comes down to users asking for them and what file format you want.

Actually the current CQC ships with 1800 graphics as mentioned here by Dean

http://www.charmedquark.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=2955

This only includes a small portion of the user contributed graphics.

As for sticking with default graphics..personally I prefer to have something that doesn't look like everybody else if I can help it, I also don't use Internet Explorer just because it works and use Firefox.

You can also very easily add any sort of graphics to CQC but most tend to use .png converted to the CQC image format.

I totally agree its nice to have stock graphics included for free *but* many of the graphics used to advertise Mainlobby need to be purchased for extra money

Library #0019 = $74.99

Library #0017 = $134.99

Library #0014 = $89.99

Security Library = $44.99

Thermostat Library = $34.99

Home and Media Library = $109.99

XM channel icons = $49.99

Network Logo library $79.99

I'm not saying *all* of these graphics are used to advertise Mainlobby but a good number are and as you can see they are pricey and if you want your setup to look like what is advertised you will need to purchase them.

LathanM... thanks for offering your graphics to users for free, it helps everybody in the long run to make an attractive system without incurring hidden costs not mentioned in advertising.

I've been following this thread closely. I'd like to thank everyone, regardless of which platform they advocate, for being making this such a constructive thread rather than a 'bash the other guy' thread.

Honestly I was initially attracted to MainLobby becuase of the eye candy. And for some of us, including myself, that may be an important part of the purchase. However, the graphics ripper has provided are stunning.

The programming end of the project seems a little more involved with CQC. Would this seem like a fair statement?

For myself, the decision is not between CQC and ML, but between CQC and ML+Homeseer.

With so many options, I had to lay out exactly what I wanted for my system now. It is nice to think about what you might need, but it's an uncertainty.

Right now, I need to interface my CAV6.6, my Ademco 128BP alarm, some thermostats (leaning towards HAI at this time), fingerprint readers, DS 1-wire temp sensors and lastly the RFID sensors from iAutomate. Undecided on lighting interface, looks like Insteon or Z-Wave.

Right now this pretty much dictates what I will have to go with. And I don't think it's a bad choice.

However, I do respect the guys at CQC in that if they are going to support a device, they are going to support it 100%. I would rather know that the device is not supported than be told something is supported and be forever waiting for bug fixes or increased command support.

Thanks again, this thread is great.

Tim

The programming end of the project seems a little more involved with CQC. Would this seem like a fair statement?

I guess it depends on how canned a solution you are willing to go with. Something to remember is that one reason that CQC takes a little more effort up front is because it's designed to be very highly configurable and it is extremely flexible. But if you look at the 'ownership lifecyle' of this type of product, once you make a decision it's something you are likely to use for many years. Over that time, your system will change and grow and you will add/replace devices and will probably want to refine and change the system to one degree or another.

So making a decision on a system based on whether it might take a bit longer to set one up vs. the other is really somewhat a tail wagging the dog scenario. What's important in a product that you will use for that long is whether it can grow with you, and not continue to cost you, and remain highly stable. A couple years from now, a small difference in the learning curve will have been long forgotten. What will be important is the power, flexibility, and quality of the product.

The statement has been made a few times that ML has way more free graphics than CQC. But, as mentioned, the shipped set is like 1780 images I think. With the downloadable ones it's over 2000. How many images does ML provide for free?

The other thing about CQC.. Responses are much faster ;)

Actually, the question you quoted was in fact that, a question. I don't think it's a deal breaker one way or the other, but is something I would take into consideration. I won't get into dollar amounts, as I think I could make just as convincing an argument the other way.

As far as graphics, my point was that it there really is not that great a difference, which is substantiated by your last sentence.

The real decision maker for me is that I have chosen the products that I am going to use, and CQC simply does not support them at this time (and neither does ML, but Homeseer does). Again, I don't discredit your product for that-- see my post above.

I know there are problems with the other packages. Just looking at the lag between questions and replies is discouraging. However, allowing the software to dictate what devices you do or do not use would be just another example of the 'tail wagging the dog'.

I have actually been reading some of your tutorials and wondering whether I could write my own support. I guess it's as much a question of how much my time is worth as well as how much I am willing to spend now and in the future.

Again, great thread.

Tim

Of your hardware, the rfID is the killer. Many of us have straightup begged Peter of iAutomate to let us write a driver, but he's patently stiffarmed us. (for either CQC or MainLobby). He refuses to publish the protocol, and for obvious reasons we don't want to sniff and reverse-engineer a copyrighted protocol.

The rest of the stuff is stuff that I'm sure someone or other will eventually write a driver for. Hence, I don't personally view it as "allowing software to dictate what devices to use", rather "allowing software to dictate my rollout schedule".

As far as time setting up, LathanM put it perfectly - MainLobby is perfect for the consumer who just wants to install something and have it work quickly, and will probably stick with the default template. CQC is perfect for the pro-sumer who can handle a little elbow grease as they'd want something highly configured for their personal desires regardless, and values deep functionality above all else.

There's probably 5-10 folks that have stated their interest in determining whether CQC is right for them before the price increase. I could always arrange a webex to walk you guys through basic CD/DVD/weather/receiver setup, wouldn't take that long. Plus with the thanksgiving holiday coming up, i've got some bandwidth available.

I'll do anything to unwind after these horrifically political and ugly days at work. Getting you up to speed on CQC and kickstarted is something I can do within a few hours. Getting colleagues to follow a straight line for more than a single meeting isn't doable period.

I'm sure David will reply something stupid like "Time is money and drivers cost to make", while this may be true the users of CQC and the company itself give away virtually every driver for FREE..time is money but greed is greed..enough said.

David and Mario from Cinemar both know I offered to provide free graphics for their users, they did not seem to approve of my plan as that might take money away from them or something so instead I moved onto another product that doesn't even care about nickel and diming people for graphics and instead concentrate on a stable and reliable control system.
I happen to prefer CQC as well but that can be expressed without your endless mud slinging and sour grapes. And your statement that you offered to provide them with free graphics is laughable. Maybe they don't like your graphics. Maybe they don't like you. Maybe they prefer to create their own graphics or use their own graphics designer. It makes no difference. It's THEIR company.

p.s. I offered to do all the graphics and UI design for Windows for free if they'd lower the price just a bit. What's wrong with that damn Bill Gates, nickel and diming us to death?!

QQQ, so we won't be seeing a skin it yourself version of Vista comming from Redmon or the high priest temple as I like to call it ;) .

Hey, the good news is that Microsoft has decided in their infinite wisdom that people who buy Vista should only be allowed to use a copy on two different computers with it....EVER. Because in their words "people don't need to upgrade their computers as frequently any more". I'm a strong believer in the free market and do not throw the word greed around lightly as people have every right to make as much money as they can. But that's worse than greed - that's legalized stealing ;).

Sorry for going OT.

p.s. Of course there is the possibility that their new strategy is to start off with a policy so absurd and insane that when they "compromise" after unhappy users start screaming about it that they end up right where they wanted to be in the first place.

Put me on the bandwagon as on interested in determining whether CQC is right for me before the price increase. Supporters of ML and CQC make valid points.. I guess it all depends on your preference... canned/out of the box or a little work/custom system.

IVB...that CQC basic setup webex sounds like a great idea!!! Count me in..if the day is right... holidays are always busy.

Put me on the bandwagon as on interested in determining whether CQC is right for me before the price increase. Supporters of ML and CQC make valid points.. I guess it all depends on your preference... canned/out of the box or a little work/custom system.

IVB...that CQC basic setup webex sounds like a great idea!!! Count me in..if the day is right... holidays are always busy.

There's already one setup for 8:30am PST/11:30am EST Sunday. Details on the CQC site on the sticky in the installation subforum.

I'm happy to do more setup sessions, just have to figure out the timing. Perhaps thanksgiving day when all my psychotic in-laws are here...

Hey, the good news is that Microsoft has decided in their infinite wisdom that people who buy Vista should only be allowed to use a copy on two different computers with it....EVER. Because in their words "people don't need to upgrade their computers as frequently any more".


This is an old policy that has already been changed. Even if the policy wasn't changed it doesn't matter because as you said "It makes no difference. It's THEIR company."

http://www.windowsitpro.com/articles/print.cfm?articleid=94117

Mike_W

Thanks Mike, good to know, that makes me a much happier MS customer. I figured they would change that but did not read that they had. In this instance I don't necessarily agree that my statement (that you quoted) applies but I am not going to go further off topic.

Cavalier240,

"As I understand it, I will have to run MLServer on my HTPC which will be controlling the devices. I will also have to run MainLobby on that machine to get the nice interfaces that I design. Now is the confusing part. I also have a laptop and an office machine, so 2 questions:
1) If I want to be able to view my GUIs from either/both of these machines and send commands through my HTPC to my devices, can I do this, or do I need additional licenses? For example, I want to control my music volume from my laptop."

You would need one license of MLServer 3, which provides for up to 5 MainLobby client PCs to concurrantly connect. In other words, you can have 5 "UI" only PCs, controlling the actions on MLServer PC. You can purchase addtional license packs, if your system grows that much, which is unlikely based on our sales numbers. But, if you do expand, it's an easy expansion.


"2) If I want to modify my user interfaces from either additional machine, and then have those modifications reflected on my HTPC server, what do I need to do that?"

Each of the MainLobby Client PCs, includes the Designer. So, you can design scenes from any PC, online or offline, including from a laptop on an airplane - which I was doing on my way to EHX show. This is an advantage of MainLobby over CQC in that you have to be connected to your home system to develop scenes with CQC - dealers have mentioned to us that this is very dealer unfriendly.

"I am looking for a definitive answer of the numbers and types of programs/licenses it would take to achieve said objectives. "

Typical: one license of MLServer 3, and one license of MainLobby 3 for a combo price of $179.99.
If you want to use it to play DVD changer based movies: add $59.99 for DVDLobby 3.
If you want to add control over TheaterTek (a version that is not available any where else but to Cinemar today), for hard drive based movie launch, add $19.99 for the brand new TheaterTek Plugin.

Let me know what other capabilities you are targeted to achieve and I can guide you better.

"On a separate note, I have started playing with each demo. First impressions are this: MainLobby reminds me of Microsoft Visio, where all of the cool icons are already created and you just drag and drop. CQC was very accurately described already as being like Excel - although even at that, I have not found it too difficult at all - the user documentation is excellent."

Yes, our end users and dealers consistently comment that the Mainlobby user interface design tools are, in their opinion (as well as mine), the best in the industry. The response we got at EHX was unanimous, with the pro dealers that found our booth and that could stay for more than 5 minutes.

Thank you for your consideration!


Ripper, you are continuing to beat a dead horse. You continue to this day not to understand very basic portions of the MainLobby application with how to build custom user interfaces using your own graphics and don't want to listen on just how easy it really is. Lathanm has done a fantastic job of displaying just that in some of his excellent work that is probably 90% his own work, using MainLobby as the technology backend to his graphical expertise.

Since you have left Cinemar, you have missed 38 MainLobby client builds, and 145 MLServer builds, each advancing the product suite with graphics, with capabilities, with reliability that is rock solid.

Cavalier240,

"As I understand it, I will have to run MLServer on my HTPC which will be controlling the devices. I will also have to run MainLobby on that machine to get the nice interfaces that I design. Now is the confusing part. I also have a laptop and an office machine, so 2 questions:
1) If I want to be able to view my GUIs from either/both of these machines and send commands through my HTPC to my devices, can I do this, or do I need additional licenses? For example, I want to control my music volume from my laptop."

You would need one license of MLServer 3, which provides for up to 5 MainLobby client PCs to concurrantly connect. In other words, you can have 5 "UI" only PCs, controlling the actions on MLServer PC. You can purchase addtional license packs, if your system grows that much, which is unlikely based on our sales numbers. But, if you do expand, it's an easy expansion.


"2) If I want to modify my user interfaces from either additional machine, and then have those modifications reflected on my HTPC server, what do I need to do that?"

Each of the MainLobby Client PCs, includes the Designer. So, you can design scenes from any PC, online or offline, including from a laptop on an airplane - which I was doing on my way to EHX show. This is an advantage of MainLobby over CQC in that you have to be connected to your home system to develop scenes with CQC - dealers have mentioned to us that this is very dealer unfriendly.

"I am looking for a definitive answer of the numbers and types of programs/licenses it would take to achieve said objectives. "

Typical: one license of MLServer 3, and one license of MainLobby 3 for a combo price of $179.99.
If you want to use it to play DVD changer based movies: add $59.99 for DVDLobby 3.
If you want to add control over TheaterTek (a version that is not available any where else but to Cinemar today), for hard drive based movie launch, add $19.99 for the brand new TheaterTek Plugin.

Let me know what other capabilities you are targeted to achieve and I can guide you better.



Ok, so if I purchase one license of MainLobby, I could install that on each of my computers that will act as a client/design machine, or will each computer require its own license? I understand that the MLServer will allow each computer to concurrently connect, so I know I only need once license of that.

Using that logic, I am at $180 for the basic program. For my needs, I would then have to add $35.00 for the Neothings Avalon plugin. Is the Denon plugin a separate fee as well? Assuming it is $35.00 as well, that brings my total to $250 before I add any programs.

I don't really have any interest in purchasing additional software (e.g. DVDLobby, theatertek) since I already have DVD and Music programs that I have already spent time creating catalogs and playlists within. If I don't purchase the programs supported by ML, can I use ML to control those other programs?

Another thought - I read that ML only includes 1 way serial communication. Do I have to purchase something else to get 2-way so that I can monitor the current status of my components?

"Ok, so if I purchase one license of MainLobby, I could install that on each of my computers that will act as a client/design machine, or will each computer require its own license? I understand that the MLServer will allow each computer to concurrently connect, so I know I only need once license of that."

Yes, that is correct.



"Using that logic, I am at $180 for the basic program. For my needs, I would then have to add $35.00 for the Neothings Avalon plugin. Is the Denon plugin a separate fee as well? Assuming it is $35.00 as well, that brings my total to $250 before I add any programs."

yes, that is correct, but the pricing for the Denon has not been set. I expect it to be priced more than the Neothings, but less than $100.

"I don't really have any interest in purchasing additional software (e.g. DVDLobby, theatertek) since I already have DVD and Music programs that I have already spent time creating catalogs and playlists within. If I don't purchase the programs supported by ML, can I use ML to control those other programs?"

You may, depends on the other apps. For example if you use Zoom Player for software DVD playing, there is a free MLServer plugin for that. You can launch most any PC software with the free MLFileOpen plugin. You can control some apps using the free MLTCPSend plugin. It really depends. Let me know specifically which apps, and maybe I can share some direction.

"Another thought - I read that ML only includes 1 way serial communication. Do I have to purchase something else to get 2-way so that I can monitor the current status of my components?"

There is also a 2 way 3rd party plugin called MLGenericSerial plugin. This is what most are using for their own custom RS232 interfaces. There is a very robust MLGenericDevice plugin in advanced beta, but that will not be a free app. Pricing is not available for that as it is still in beta. But, the beta testers are telling us it is excellent, even in the relatively immature state it is in. My suggestion is to try the free MLGenericSerial with your device. If the device requires more complicated scripting control on the return data (as one example), then you will be able to use the MLGenericDevice once it's available. MLGD was built mostly for dealers so that they can get out of a jamb when a custom plugin is not available for a device and they want to build their own without having to wait on a pro developer (like Cinemar) to build it for them.

See, not so bad afterall and the reason why Cinemar sells "ala carte" as no two installs are the same. Your situation is very typical. When users like IVB and Ripper speak of theirs, they have advanced DIY installations that have tons of "stuff" that most pro installs never need and that most DIY'rs never have the time to implement. So, why pay for things you won't be using?

When users like IVB and Ripper speak of theirs, they have advanced DIY installations that have tons of "stuff" that most pro installs never need and that most DIY'rs never have the time to implement. So, why pay for things you won't be using?
Can't speak about ripper, but for me, it was the other way around.

I only bought CQC to control some basic H/T stuff. I had the same opinion as cavalier - why in gods name would I do anything else?

Then, when I realized if I spent the whopping $8 on a serial cable, CQC could control
1) my HVAC. And I hated my Carrier Thermo, cuz I couldn't understand how to program it, plus it didn't have the basic programming I needed. (turn yourself on at 7:15am, turn up the temp by 5 degrees). I sold my new Carrier, got an Aprilaire, an $8 serial cable, 1 free CQC driver, and now I can do HVAC.

2) my irrigation controller. Don't even get me started here. I had a $400 irrigation rainbird controller that I put in myself b/c I was told it was the best. But I'll be damned if I had to spend 45minutes each time I needed to change the schedule, b/c there were 3 different dials and 2 buttons to push, some in concert with each other. (no, not joking). I actually sold my rainbird, got a cheap rain8net, another free driver, and made $$ on this deal (offsetting the cost of CQC :) )

In either case, I used the free drivers and out-of-the-box event scheduler to automate this. Now, I can use that same scheduler to turn off the HVAC, all amps, and soon lighting when I put the security into ArmAway mode.

I mean this with the utmost respect for individual preferences: I see zero chance of anyone, in 5 years who'll still feel they "only ever" need to automate one fuction in their house. I personally witnessed this same reaction when Ashton-Tate released Frameworks, the original application that housed a spreadsheet, email, a word processor, a database, and a few other apps, and you could work on any or all of them concurrently. Folks said "well, that's nice, but I have no need to ever work on more than one app at once".

In far less than 5 years from that product release, you literally could not find a single person in the workforce who didn't work on all concurrently, indeed copying from one to the other at will.

In my entirely personal prognostication and I could be dead wrong like many times before: All roads lead to an integrated approach like CQC. The only question is how long before the market realizes this, and just how far ahead of the competition will CQC be by then. After all, even the mighty M$ could wake up to this, but CQC will be on V4 by then. There's no one else even on V1 of an integrated architecture now.

Just so there is not any confusion... I keep hearing people speak about how cqc is very customizable and that mainlobby is more of a pre built system and not very configurable.

Just so anyone on the fence is wondering, mainlobby is very configurable. From what I have read of the cqc manuals I would say that both cqc and mainlobby are equal in that if you can think of something you can do it. (as long as a driver is available)

When I think of customized, I think of things like making the system (based on who is home) unlock the door, turn specific lights on, alert if the mail has come yet, turn on the tv and change to your favorite channel, and display the latest news. Or have very complex logic to turn lights or client computers on, based on room activity as well as decide if the hvac should be adjusted. Or know that since you started the hot tub sequence to kick on the towel warmers.

Both have configurable graphics so I dont think is a big deal. Although with mainlobby you can at least buy it and be instantly up and going. Then as you learn more you can customize anything you can think of as long as you can control it.

The one big thing that would kinda scare me with cqc is, what happens if something were to happen to dean? I dont want to jinx anything so (knock on wood) but what if you were sick and couldnt work for 12 months and could not explain your software design to another programer?

It sounds like dean busts his aZZ working around the clock, which is good but is there someone else in the company that knows the programming inside and out?

Anyhow I use mainlobby and am very happy with everything and the service. I dont always agree wih the pricing but at least I only buy what I need. It seems that once the pricing of cqc goes up and has a anual fee, mainlobby with all the plugins needed for most users will be much cheaper. I understand that a few people (very few) would spend more on all the required plugins.

Since the day I started using mainlobby 3 years ago I have spent just shy of $550

Mainlobby 2 with mlserver 59.99
Mainlobby 3 and mlserver upgarde (with library 0019) 99.99
dvdlobby 59.99
dvdlobby 3 upgrade free
musiclobby 59.99
musiclobby 3 upgrade free
weblobby 45.99
insteon plugin (lighting) 59.99
wgl 800rf plugin (security and motion sensors) 29.99
cdripper 29.99
rs232 2 way plugin free

Things I plan to buy cost $114.97:
Theatertek plugin 19.99
Ip camera plugin 39.99
rain 8 plugin 54.99

after the additions I will have spent approx. $670 and the system should be set for another couple years with no more cost.


With cqc I would have spent a total of $795
cqc $495
3 years of fees $300

add on two more years of fees $200 for a total of $995.

In three weeks to duplicate I would be spending (which I wont):
$895 plus 2 years of annual fees for $200 costing me $1095

Someone mentioned they would have spent $1500 with cinemar. Would you mind breaking that down? I am curious how you would spend that much. I also beleive that the event viewer mentioned, functions the exact way that mlserver does by providing two way information feedback, with if then logic to automat pretty much anything. I am also curious how cqc has more functionality. Could you explain?



Good luck on your choice folks!

"I see zero chance of anyone, in 5 years who'll still feel they "only ever" need to automate one fuction in their house."

IVB, don't bet that in Vegas. Many MainLobby customers just choose Music Or Movies as their only usage of MainLobby. Then there are others that purchase our "Monster" suite and go to town. Lots of individual needs / wants out there.


Thartigh, thanx for illustrating one of those choices (yours).

Sounds like a single server setup with no PDA access, which is what most Cinemar folks i've noticed have. The thing about CQC folks is that since it's a whole-house license, we end up creating several servers around the house and using our cellphones or PDAs. Not because we need to, but honestly, it's part of the price, so might as well. Even if it's only a small amount of incremental value, may as well squeeze every last bit of return on our investment.

Also, your point on dollar comparison is inaccurate - the $95/year gets you all the upgrades and new minor components that come out that year. If I understand your fee schedule, you paid about $200 in upgrade fees for 2 years, coincidentally the same price as the CQC fee, but got nothing other than the newer version of your current stuff (ie, no new minor components). If, in 2 years, you opt to upgrade again, at another $200, you'll get the latest versions of your stuff. For that same $200, I, however, will have gotten any new minor components that CQC has come out with. (ie, in the last year, that's the event server, XML server, web server, PDA viewer. Only the Media Repository is considered "major").

I'll leave others to talk about their take on functional differences, i'll call one bit out that is my personal deal-killer:Underlying architecture, and what functionality is possible both today and in the future with it. The way Cinemar approaches multi-pc systems is to do this via file-sharing. This is the same basic concept as MS-Access - you can have multiple PCs access the same db concurrently, hope nothing happens at the file level to corrupt it. The way CQC approaches it is much more like Oracle/SQL-Server: You open up a network port to communicate [and i don't mean port 80 which is read-only]. All communications is done that way. Not much argument there over which is more reliable and can withstand a beating better. An offtopic but onforum(HomeAutomation) realworld example of how that will forever and always be more powerful than file-sharing is by looking at how PDA access is, esp from outside your network. With ML, you're forced to use logmein externally, and put junk on your server to access it. Furthermore, either internal or external, you have to transfer the whole screen over. With CQC, it communicates over a network port to get the info. Not allowing direct access means it's more secure, more defensible against instability elsewhere in your system. If you use the same button image 10x on your PDA screens, it'll only send that image 1x, and the client-app can tell it already got it, and not redownload it. Granted, that's an obscure example, but it highlights how architectural choices can make something stand far above what others can't even dream of. I'm currently having an issue where my wife screwed up our office PC, then went over to the laptop, accessed the fileshare, and screwed up stuff even more.

There is literally zero chance i'll expose something like a Home Automation machine, even if it's just HomeTheaterAutomation, to the file-share level of exposure. There's also zero chance i'll schlep around to each machine to copy files locally every time I change an interfce, because that's a monstrous waste of time.
You gain security and performance with CQC, but you give up the luxury of building interfaces offline and on an airplane. That's an easy tradeoff for most of us. If there's a dealer who would prefer his personal convenience over my security & performance, I'm not going to hire him ever.

BTW, I was the one who said it'd cost me $1500 on Cinemar software. I was pricing out my setup on Cinemar after the price hubbub, created the post halfwy down this page on cocoontech (http://www.cocoontech.com/index.php?showtopic=5145&hl=mainlobby), an independent site. Well, it was super-ML friendly and anti-CQC when I got there, so I'd have thought they'd be more than comfortable responding. Here's that post. DavidL(smoothtlk) or mario didn't respond, but a user did to confirm my guesses. There's obviously no way I'd pursue my current route had I gone with Cinemar last year instead of CQC based on price alone, but honestly that just proves my point further: On average, those of us who have CQC will always do more with our systems than those of us who use Cinemar, because it's free for us to do so.

Given the OP's position of "just doing X fxnlty" - If you had to choose between a package where the average person didn't do so much because they'd constantly be paying incremental prices or one where the average person did tons b/c they could, which would you pick? There's no wrong answer here, just like some folks buy 100hp cars and some folks buy 300hp cars - some of us just like knowing the power is there if we ever need it, and it won't cost us a dime extra to use it once we pay the initial cost. They're both entirely legitimate choices.



I have:
- CD control
- Currently 7zones, may expand to 10 based on some architecture modifications.
- DVD control
- XM Control
- Misc Web Browser control [SageTV, CCTV]
- Irrigation
- Aprilaire
- Elk M1
- Weather
- PPC for all of above. (which i've now actually used several times)

I also have:
- 4 PCs controlling something [either hw or sw], 2 of which are used as clients
- 2 touchpanels today, 2 more coming as soon as I get all the CCTVs and whole-house a/v working

Future:
- I *may* throw out the Xantech and get 2 russounds as i'm sick of all the amps, in which case:
- HD distro [probably Neothings as I can't get a decent price on autopatch]
- Yamaha RXV1500 for cheap surround in MBR [eBay has it for $375]

If I understand the licensing structure, that means I need:
- 1 MLServer 5-client: $100
- 1 MLServer 5-client pack [2 PCs plus 4 panels = 6]: $100
- 2 MLServer 0-client [for 2 PCs that control something]: $140 ($70x2)
- MainLobby: $100 [only need one, right?]
- DVDLobby: $60
- MusicLobby: $60 for 3 zones
- 2 additional 3zone licenses: $120
- CD Ripping: $30
- XMLobby: $60
- Weather: $60
- WebLobby: $45
- XMPocket: $45
- MusicPocket: $35
- DVDPocket: $35
- Rain8 driver: $55
- elk driver: $100
- Avalon driver : $35
- Russound: $55
- Yamaha: $40

That's $1275. Is that correct?

Also, that doesn't address the Aprilaire HVAC: I think I need HS there, so that's:
- HomeSeer: $190
- ML plugin: $40

If that's true, then that's $1505, is that correct?


"I see zero chance of anyone, in 5 years who'll still feel they "only ever" need to automate one fuction in their house."IVB, don't bet that in Vegas. Many MainLobby customers just choose Music Or Movies as their only usage of MainLobby.
I'm sure they do, which underscores that above point about average size of an install that much more. However, my point is not "what are people doing today", but "what will people be doing in a few years, and which company is looking at that future and preparing for it today".

Whether folks want to go with a company who's preparing for today or a company that can already well cover today and tomorrow is up to them. Again, no right answer there, there's pros and cons to both sides.

BTW, when I did that post I didn't realize you have to pay for the XM graphics ($50), network logo grapics($80), security graphics ($45), and thermo graphics ($35). Grapics at that same level of quality is all free with the CQC product (donated by Ripper). There's another $210. Even if he doesn't donate any more in the future, it's part of the current baseline. And let me tell you something - that guy produces more amazing graphics at a faster rate for his fellow CQC'ers than anyone i've ever seen, and religously donates them all.

Make that $1700 all-in just so I can have what I have today for $495. (intentionally not counting annual fee since as proven above, that's a wash between me & tharthigh).

The one big thing that would kinda scare me with cqc is, what happens if something were to happen to dean? I dont want to jinx anything so (knock on wood) but what if you were sick and couldnt work for 12 months and could not explain your software design to another programer?

It sounds like dean busts his aZZ working around the clock, which is good but is there someone else in the company that knows the programming inside and out?


As mentioned in the past Mark of CQC also has the code if needed...I guess a person could ask the same and what would happen to Mainlobby if Mario were sick or couldn't work for 12 months?

We have to be realistic here, Dean probably never goes outside or sees the sunlight much..I think I've heard of him being sick once this year and that was probably because he strayed more than 20 meters from the bat cave. :rolleyes:

I would like to preface this next post by reminding people that I am just trying to gather information on the various products in an effort to keep this thread on topic.

As I was searching other forums, I came across the following post. I found it troubling that the developers of MainLobby never directly responded to the allegations of copyright infringement. In terms of future product support, I think a copyright lawsuit would certainly make it difficult for the company to stay in business, and then where would that leave me?

Just a thought. Once again, we've done a good job thus far of preventing this from becoming a bashing thread and purely sharing product/company information.

http://www.cocoontech.com/index.php?showtopic=5145&hl=mainlobby&st=30

I am not bashing or starting a peeing match, just informing and since I have looked at cqc was wondering the answer to those questions. I think both are great software choices.

Its good to see there is a back up plan in place for them.

IVB, you could end up spending that much, like I said just curious how. But you dont need the graphics packages for your system to work. They are there in case you want more than the standard stuff. Or make your own just like cqc. Over all the only difference between are systems is you use xmlobby and ppc's. I handle hvac through the 2-way serial plugin.

As for updates I dont understand what you mean by minor updates. All of them with ML are free unless it is some major update or vesion upgrade. Like smooth said I beleive there have been around 40-50 mainlobby and 140+ with mlserver. Most of the mainlobby ones are to give free graphics and add more functionality.

I used to have multiple servers but have since removed most and moved to a single server. I now use four pc's, #1 is the server slash jrivers pc slash office pc, #2 is strictly dvd player and gaming, #3 is dvd gaming and has a ML client running 2 touch screens and #4 is strictly to run touchscreens. It has two ML clients running 8 touch screens. My system is now all in one rack and very simple to manage. I have seven audio zones but handle it with a 3 license musiclobby. I use the three as sources of audio to a switcher. I either play the same thing through the house or have up to three diferrent different things playing.

My question should have been: What can cqc do that mainlobby cant on the server end? I already know the difference in the back end and agree that it is better than file sharing, but is it really necessary for security purposes? It is still running on windows, a hacker can still get to your files and just delete the cqc directory or manipulate system files to make your system unusable and still get to personal information. Most will already have some form of security (firewalls, ect...). Other than thatt I dont see why I would need all the security. Guest dont come over and mess with my system. The only thing someone could really do is go to the pc's and turn them off, but they are locked in a closet.

I dont need to modify my system from every pc. I use my one server pc to change functionality which does not require distribution. I also use that pc to modify the UI. When finished I just click a batch file that copies the mls. files (ui) and and the image directory over to the other pc's. Then I click a button on any one of the client that closes and restarts all clients. I only do this once in a great while. My system always works and I put alot of thought into the UI so I wouldnt have to keep changing it. If I do, I usually do it off site to keep busy, then use the same procedure update all clients.

I dont use a PDA, I may in the future but I have enough screens around I really dont need something hand held for full control. I do have a couple of x10 wirless (RF) key chain remotes for volume, channel, and next song functions that work inside and outside of the house using the wgl w800rf plugin. If I did use a PDA a think I would like to use Ml because of the sliding menus. It allows for great use of small screens.

Mainlobby also uses a webserver for cover art and has a webserver to use.

Again I just want to point out that both functionally do the same thing but have a different backend design and on may control something that the other doesnt.

Running to a meeting, let me answer the quick question first, back in a bit with the other one.

As for updates I dont understand what you mean by minor updates. All of them with ML are free unless it is some major update or vesion upgrade. Like smooth said I beleive there have been around 40-50 mainlobby and 140+ with mlserver. Most of the mainlobby ones are to give free graphics and add more functionality.


Let me try to explain it this way. If Cinemar had the same annual licensing fee that CQC does, you'd have gotten ALL your upgrades for free. MusicLobby3/ML3/DVD3/etc. Given that the average product puts out 1 major version upgrade per year, and that folks may skip 1 version but will usually do the next one, if you spend $200 per upgrade set on fees you're breaking even with the CQC model.

Where the CQC model comes out in the consumer's favor is if they release a new module (aka component). There's a strong chance you'd even get that for free. Again, had Cinemar followed this, you'd get the following free:
- *Lobby
- actually, don't see anything on the Cinemar suite that would rise to the level of "major component".

In CQC terms, new modules that aren't that big in the bigger pond that is CQC are called minor. That means the following would have been covered under the $95/year fee:
- Application Control Server (control software packages)
- DotNetViewer (pull up any screen on your PDA or low powered PC)
- Event Server
- XML Gateway

IVB, you could end up spending that much, like I said just curious how. But you dont need the graphics packages for your system to work.
Sure, I don't *need* it. But my point is, I'm using professional-level graphics that are part of the CQC package. In order to do an apples-apples comparison of what CQC costs vs what Cinemar costs, you need to include ALL of what CQC is, not just what you need.

In the end, this is the biggest difference between the pricing models. To determine the total cost of ownership with Cinemar, you need to use your crystal ball to determine what equipment you're going to use, what modules you will use, and how many servers you'll use. If you're wrong, you could end up paying a very heavy price, like I would have.

With CQC, there's only 5 optional modules, and those are even currently on sale for the $495 fee. There's really nothing to worry about - you can do what you want, when you want. For example, given that CQC now supports 8 different video switchers, if you decide you want to do HD distro, you're not forced into buying a Neothings b/c that's the only one with a driver. Go find one with the 8 publicly available and free drivers on eBay and go to town.

Cavelier240,
As Mario mentioned, we do not speak about legal issues on public forums.
We purchase data from the best data providers in the business.
For example, we just had meetings with another data provider at the EHX show for a new product.
As far as we know, we license more data than anyone else in the software based automation controller PC business. Our pricing reflects that data quality and license fees.
I don't think your concern is warranted and we don't expose our company to loose it to a silly decision.

Ok, all of a few mins until the next meeting, but here goes another quickie:

My question should have been: What can cqc do that mainlobby cant on the server end? I already know the difference in the back end and agree that it is better than file sharing, but is it really necessary for security purposes? It is still running on windows, a hacker can still get to your files and just delete the cqc directory or manipulate system files to make your system unusable and still get to personal information. Most will already have some form of security (firewalls, ect...). Other than thatt I dont see why I would need all the security. Guest dont come over and mess with my system. The only thing someone could really do is go to the pc's and turn them off, but they are locked in a closet.
I dont need to modify my system from every pc. I use my one server pc to change functionality which does not require distribution. I also use that pc to modify the UI. When finished I just click a batch file that copies the mls. files (ui) and and the image directory over to the other pc's. Then I click a button on any one of the client that closes and restarts all clients. I only do this once in a great while. My system always works and I put alot of thought into the UI so I wouldnt have to keep changing it. If I do, I usually do it off site to keep busy, then use the same procedure update all clients.

The question is less about what given fxnlty is currently there, and more about the approach and architecture used to deliver the bits. Frankly, you don't even need MainLobby to do what you've done - a much much cheaper license for Girder & Netremote could accomplish the same thing. Same basic theory as the Cinemar suite - use a single-pc based concept and extend it, rather than do a ground-up network architecture. Heck, why even pay the $600 for MainLobby in your case - spend the $200 on Girder/NR and be done with it. After all, can MainLobby really do anything that Girder and NetRemote cannot?

With CQC, you have an entire approach that's meant to be scaleable, flexible, and highly configurable. Plus, as LathanM pointed out, it's an awesome developers toolkit for extending custom RS232 support for devices that don't exist. For example, there's 2 primary languages you can create new drivers and functionality in: CML, the heavyweight OO programming language, and PDL, basically a metadata type "protocol description language". Before Dean had a driver for the Polk XRt12 XM tuner, I sat down in PDL and wrote one. I haven't coded in >10 years, and I got through it in about a day or so. Heck, even my wife who's in marketing looked at the code and said "is that all?" Granted, PDL isn't that flexible, but it's meant to be very very easy to write drivers for simple devices. CML is much much more powerful, and can handle anything you throw at it.

This approach is one of the reasons V2.0 will have somewhere around 130-140 drivers in it - it's so easy to write new drivers, everyone is writing them for their own stuff, and donating/submitting to CQC for certification and inclusion in the G/A product.

And how does that extensive hardware support help you? Well, it helps you not make a hardware decision based on the 1 piece of hardware that the software supports - rather, the other way around: Out of the box, CQC can control 8 video switchers, representing nearly the entire market. (might be up to 11 now in V2.0, not exactly sure). It will lower your overall costs at a higher fit to your requirements.

I didn't need to buy a Neothings after all, as I was able to secure a great deal on an Autopatch. Not an option with Cinemar - it doesn't support it. Now that's 2 different ways that CQC has paid for itself (sold irrigation controller, saved $$ on HD distro).

If you're curious as to how easy it is to do this, here's that sample PDL code.

[CQCProto Version="2.0" Encoding="ISO-8859-1"]

// ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
ProtocolInfo=
TextEncoding="ASCII";
EndProtocolInfo;

// ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
// Mappings
// ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Maps=


EndMaps;



// ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
// Driver Fields
// ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fields=

Field=ChannelSelect Type=Int4; Access=ReadWrite; Limits="Range:0,255"; EndField;
Field=PresetSelect Type=Int4; Access=ReadWrite; Limits="Range:1,20"; EndField;
Field=CategoryLeft Type=Int4; Access=ReadWrite; Limits="Range:1,20"; EndField;
Field=CategoryRight Type=Int4; Access=ReadWrite; Limits="Range:1,20"; EndField;
Field=SelectUp Type=Int4; Access=ReadWrite; Limits="Range:1,20"; EndField;
Field=SelectDown Type=Int4; Access=ReadWrite; Limits="Range:1,20"; EndField;


//
// These Write-only fields are used to trigger commands which either
// return nothing, or which return values of a different type than input.
//
Field=Mute Type=Boolean; Access=Write; EndField;
Field=Unmute Type=Boolean; Access=Write; EndField;
Field=ChangeDisplay Type=Boolean; Access=Write; EndField;
Field=Jump Type=Boolean; Access=Write; EndField;
Field=Menu Type=Boolean; Access=Write; EndField;
Field=Enter Type=Boolean; Access=Write; EndField;

//
// These Read-only fields contain information returned by the
// commands and queries.
//
Field=SongTitle Type=String; Access=Read; EndField;


EndFields;



// ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
// Query Messages
// ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Queries=

Query=ConnectXRt12
QueryCmd=
"ConnectXRt12\r";
EndQueryCmd;
EndQuery;

Query=PollSongInformation
QueryCmd=
"GetSongInformation\r";
EndQueryCmd;
EndQuery;


EndQueries;



// ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
// Reply Messages
//
// ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Replies=

Reply=SongInformationReply
Store=
SongTitle=ExtractStr(&Reply,0,16);
EndStore;
EndReply;


Reply=ConnectReply
EndReply;

EndReplies;



// ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
// Message Matching
// ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
MsgMatching=
StateMachine=
State=MsgBody
<Accept>=Equals(&InputByte, 0x0D);
MsgBody=True;
EndState;
EndStateMachine;

MsgMatches=
Case=SongInformationReply
Equals (1,1);
EndCase;

Case=ConnectReply
Equals (1,1);
EndCase;


EndMsgMatches;

EndMsgMatching;


// ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
// Write Commands
// ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
WriteCmds=

WriteCmd=Jump
Send=
"Jump\r";
EndSend;
EndWriteCmd;

WriteCmd=Mute
Send=
"Mute\r";
EndSend;
EndWriteCmd;

WriteCmd=Unmute
Send=
"Unmute\r";
EndSend;
EndWriteCmd;

WriteCmd=ChannelSelect
Send=
"ChannelSelect ";
ToString(&WriteVal);
"\r";
EndSend;
EndWriteCmd;

WriteCmd=CategoryRight
Send=
"CategoryRight ";
ToString(&WriteVal);
"\r";
EndSend;
EndWriteCmd;

WriteCmd=CategoryLeft
Send=
"CategoryLeft ";
ToString(&WriteVal);
"\r";
EndSend;
EndWriteCmd;

WriteCmd=SelectUp
Send=
"SelectUp ";
ToString(&WriteVal);
"\r";
EndSend;
EndWriteCmd;

WriteCmd=SelectDown
Send=
"SelectDown ";
ToString(&WriteVal);
"\r";
EndSend;
EndWriteCmd;

WriteCmd=PresetSelect
Send=
"PresetSelect";
ToString(&WriteVal);
"\r";
EndSend;
EndWriteCmd;

WriteCmd=ChangeDisplay
Send=
"ChangeDisplay\r";
EndSend;
EndWriteCmd;

WriteCmd=Menu
Send=
"Menu\r";
EndSend;
EndWriteCmd;

EndWriteCmds;



// ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
// Connect Attempt Exchange
// ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
TryConnect=

Send=ConnectXRt12;
Receive=ConnectReply;
WaitFor=2000;

EndTryConnect;


PollEvents=

Exchange=
Send=PollSongInformation;
Period=3000;
Receive=SongInformationReply;
WaitFor=250;
EndExchange;


EndPollEvents;

Actually girder cant provide what I have. Nor the interface and sliding menus I have. Neither can cqc, at least I dont think. Does it have animated graphics and sliding menus? Also the autopatch works great being controlled my cinemar and the free rs232 2 way plugin. When the new one comes out I may buy it just to get more direct logic rather than writing my own within mlserver. Just because there is not a driver dont mean it cant be controlled.


I am sure we can go round and round here all day! but... I dont use cqc or know all of its capabilities but from what I see have read about they basically can provide the exact same thing. It appears that you only know what you have heard or read about ml3. That being said, you keep going on about how much more cqc can do over ml with out knowing if it can or cant. This in my mind mis -informs people who are looking to make a choice on what to buy.

Anyhow, I still dont get why you need all of the security for your automation software. If it runs on windows and is connected to the internet it is vonerable not matter what.

I dont see how ml forces you to make decisions based on the harware it supports. If it does not support something you can either use homeseer or use the rs232 plugin, or write your own plugin.

"After all, can MainLobby really do anything that Girder and NetRemote cannot?"
How is cqc any different?

"With CQC, you have an entire approach that's meant to be scaleable, flexible, and highly configurable"
I would say mainlobby offers the same.

Anyhow, I still dont get why you need all of the security for your automation software. If it runs on windows and is connected to the internet it is vonerable not matter what.
Why do I need a security system, then? Heck, don't even bother locking the doors. As long as I live in public and the cops take forever in Oakland to get to my house, I'm vulnerable.

I am sure we can go round and round here all day! but... I dont use cqc or know all of its capabilities but from what I see have read about they basically can provide the exact same thing. It appears that you only know what you have heard or read about ml3. That being said, you keep going on about how much more cqc can do over ml with out knowing if it can or cant. This in my mind mis -informs people who are looking to make a choice on what to buy.
Point taken, quite true. If there's a user out there who actually uses MainLobby as their primary Home Automation engine (and i don't mean as just a front-end for homeseer), then they should correct my mistakes with cold hard facts about how their system works. I don't really care about marketing glossies off the website about the potential of their "event/automation engine", I just care about what's actually being done by folks.

This poll over at cocoontech (http://www.cocoontech.com/index.php?showtopic=5038) showed that when asked what they use for their primary HA engine, 2 out of 137 people who replied used MainLobby, one of which was Mario, the other was DavidL(smoothlk). I'm not sure if there's anyone out there actually using ML as the Home Automation engine that you describe.

Until there's someone out there who can stand up and say "yes, I use ML as my primary HA engine. Here's what I've done, here's how i've done it, here's the difficulties i've had, here's what i'm doing to work around it", then the new user (ie, cavalier) is forced to make a decision based on what all of us read and hear.

IVB,
MLServer 3 is used as a full automation controller by the majority (large) of MainLobby users. No Homeseer, no HAL, no anything else. It's not marketing hype. Download and try it. That simple.
Very few MainLobby customers "hang out" at cocoontech. Heck, go to EHX or CEDIA and ask how many dealers even know what Cocoontech is, and I would be suprised if in a day of asking the same question, how many would even know what you are talking about.

Point taken, quite true. If there's a user out there who actually uses MainLobby as their primary Home Automation engine (and i don't mean as just a front-end for homeseer), then they should correct my mistakes with cold hard facts about how their system works. I don't really care about marketing glossies off the website about the potential of their "event/automation engine", I just care about what's actually being done by folks.

This poll over at cocoontech (http://www.cocoontech.com/index.php?showtopic=5038) showed that when asked what they use for their primary HA engine, 2 out of 137 people who replied used MainLobby, one of which was Mario, the other was DavidL(smoothlk). I'm not sure if there's anyone out there actually using ML as the Home Automation engine that you describe.

Until there's someone out there who can stand up and say "yes, I use ML as my primary HA engine. Here's what I've done, here's how i've done it, here's the difficulties i've had, here's what i'm doing to work around it", then the new user (ie, cavalier) is forced to make a decision based on what all of us read and hear.

This would be invaluable. As a potential user, I would like to see the following:
1) The software package you are using as the primary HA engine
2) Screenshots (links would be best if possible to ease the reading of the thread)
3) Any additional software/plugins/3rd party systems/graphics/etc that you had to buy/incorporate in order to achieve specific functions
4) Any drivers/plugins that you wrote yourself
5) Ballpark $$ spent to achieve your HA (if you don't mind sharing)

I think this will really give potential buyers both ideas of what can be achieved, but also what it will take to achieve said systems.

As a followup, it should be known that I have scoured several other forums including the CQC and ML forums and have come across several pages of screenshots, which alone are not that helpful, so please don't just post links to galleries. It is the accompanying explantaions which add value. I only gain value if someone says "this is my interface which I use to do this.... In order to achieve this, I had to buy/write x,y, and z plugins, and integrate it with these X pieces of hardware. I also had to buy x,y, and z programs and graphics packs to achieve this GUI."

IVB,
MLServer 3 is used as a full automation controller by the majority (large) of MainLobby users. No Homeseer, no HAL, no anything else. It's not marketing hype. Download and try it. That simple.
Very few MainLobby customers "hang out" at cocoontech. Heck, go to EHX or CEDIA and ask how many dealers even know what Cocoontech is, and I would be suprised if in a day of asking the same question, how many would even know what you are talking about.
That's asking quite a lot of DIYer's. We're on the bleeding edge with enough of our lives. I might be spoiled by the average 120 posts/day on the CQC forums (or new CQC chat room!) asking questions, posting suggestions, etc, but it sounds you want us to take a gamble when there's no one around where we "hang out". If there's no one around at Cocoontech, the biggest DIY HA forum around, only 2-3 people here who have smaller-size installs, then why would we bother taking a chance on something if there's another alternative that's well proven, better hardware support, more secure, the same price (if not cheaper), and has an architecture that no one has been able to find a weakness with yet, all with a ton of folks around to help us where we prefer to spend our time?

This would be invaluable. As a potential user, I would like to see the following:
1) The software package you are using as the primary HA engine
2) Screenshots (links would be best if possible to ease the reading of the thread)
3) Any additional software/plugins/3rd party systems/graphics/etc that you had to buy/incorporate in order to achieve specific functions
4) Any drivers/plugins that you wrote yourself
5) Ballpark $$ spent to achieve your HA (if you don't mind sharing)

I think this will really give potential buyers both ideas of what can be achieved, but also what it will take to achieve said systems.

I could not agree more. I've always given a full disclosure of everything, indeed blogging my progress both on the blog in my sig, and also on my "IVB's HA Progress" thread both here at avs (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=666144) and at the CQC Forums. (http://www.charmedquark.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=1314&highlight=progress) The AVS one is only 4 pages long, but the CQC one is 34 pages long.

There's nothing illusory here. I walk you through a horrific amount of detail as to how i've evolved my system over time.

I have a complete scorecard as to how I did what I did, comprehensive parts list with $$ amount here in this grid (http://www.charmedquark.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=1314&page=33&highlight=progress).

I am using ML as my only solution. My system consist of 5 777ES changers, 2 projectors, 4 TVs, 1 motorized screen, 2 100CD changers, Insteon and x10 lighting. Toshiba and USB cameras, 2 surround audio zones (1 5.1 & 1 7.1), 3 music only zones, Sirius tuner control, 3 DirecTv receivers. The video sources are linked through a 3 of Videostorm matrix switchers (years of upgrades and cheaper than starting over with 1 large switch) and a couple of output multipliers. The controls on the devices are a mix of serial and IR control. The client side is handled by touch screens served from Citrix.

As for issues I haven't had any major ones. I had a couple of CallerID issues but they were related to the modem that has been replaced with a NetCallerID. Even then it may be going away if I can find a way to get the SMDR data from my pbx into the system without too much trouble. Getting reliable serial information from my projectors. Just because it says you receive a 0x1 when a command is accepted and 0xF when rejected doesn't help when you occasionally see a 0x4 or 0x9. IR issues were limited to mechanical problems,forgetting to tighten screws all the way down or putting a staple through the wire, and IR learning issues and my own custom IR zone controller relying on my less than perfect wire wrapping skills. Stupid Sirius remote and its combo/double duty buttons. A minor issue with the horoscope plugin that was quickly resolved by Cinemar.

On the development side I have had issue with there being no autosave function in the client and the system defaulting to full paths for button links instead of web page style or unc references. To get around this I run a text search and replace to strip out the unnecessary parts. Alignment of objects can be troublesome but primarily with custom objects. To get around this I have been prebuilding composite objects for things like d-pads and keypads. I also stripped some of the extra motion elements out of my scene transitions since they got old after a few days and slowed things down somewhat. The new licensing setup for hardware has made it harder to develop scenes when I am on the road but thanks to VMware and 120gb laptop drives have eliminated that problem.

Most of the expansion I have planned for my system is finding a way to fully integrate my pbx into the system. TeleVantage ships with a full sdk but ML doesn't support TAPI so I may have to get creative. Possibly adding a Elk but it won't be for awhile. Expanded temperature control is also in the future but it too is no real rush. Maybe replacing my IR controller since ML now offers a 5 zone unit.

Things I won't be adding weather reports, really I am in Chicago do you really want to know the weather, whole house audio, had it an never used it. I am a movie guy and most of my music is still on vinyl and reel to reel tapes. PDA control, unless Apple brings back the Newton it isn't likely, small screens suck. Sprinkler control, first I don't have a lawn and second I hate yard work

I don't think I am alone in my choices. Most of the people that I have spoken with that have HA systems by Crestron or AMX systems are pretty much doing the same things I am. They don't do their own yard work so they don't worry about irrigation. Security cameras are big but more from a static camera point of view. A couple didn't even understand that they had PTZ cameras until they accidentally changed views on the camera.

Oakland? oak-land-cal-i-forn-ia (from rapper too short)
I am seriously asking why the security. Not home security you need that there. Like I said, since its windows, it IS vonerable. As long as you have great protection for the whole pc you should not need it for the HA software. Aslo what is someone gonna do steal your scene layouts or know what light you have on. Your UI should not allow users to access things anyway. You should have a password protected with a hidden button for a admin screen.
I just dont get it!


I dont use homeseer, I have been able to control everything I need without it. To me I want as little software running as possible. I still wish we could ditch j rivers but it would be hard for a HA company to match the development that goes into it.

Here is my system. I started with just wanting a way to control my movies and music. All movies and music are harddrive based. I had several client pc's, one in each room. After a while I wanted the weather and the cdripping engine. Then I added weblobby. I then started using the usbuirt to control the receiver and a ir x10 controller for lighting. Most everything Logic wise I was able to do through mlserver. Some things required workarounds since pre-mlserver3 did not have logic based rules for variables. Work around meaning use commands and plugins to create the logic. It worked well but some things were a pain. I then swapped the ir x-10 for the smarthome stuff (pre-insteon) and used the generic serial to control it.

Everything worked well but it could use much improvement and ML# took care of that. It fixed almost all little things that required workarounds and added alot of capability. The biggest thing being the automation rules. If anyone knows ladder logic this is as cole as it gets. Example: If variable light001=on then run this command, if its not run a different command. A varaible is a line of text in mlserver. Almost all plugins create variables to hold their data, and can include image paths or anything you want. The variable has a name and a value. That value can simply be displayed as text or a picture, be used for an automation rule or be used to temoroarly hold information during a command.

When I switched to ml3 I added the insteon controller mainly because I could still use all of my x10 stuff while I migrated to insteon. Once all that was working I added the w800 plugin. My security system is 100% using ds10a switches and eagle eye motion sensors. Including mail notification via a ds10a. (using the modified antenna with the w800rf) During all of this I started playing with the serial thermostat and have that working through mlserver.

My biggest thing with ML# was what to do? Do I spend all the money for extra license or to make the sytem more reliable and easier to maintain? or do I switch to cqc which allows for this without extra money.

In the end I opted to stick with ML, mainly because service has always been top notch. Second thing was I wanted to ditch some of the pc's anyway. It was getting to be a pain making sure that 8 pc's are up to date with windows and all lobby products. To me trying to use every pc to play movies, music, and run mainlobby was a great idea but unless you use fast pc's it does not work well. So I decided to have to pc's strickly for movie playback and gaming on each. I dont have kids so it is very rare that we ever need more than two sources music playing. I no longer use the usbuirt and switched everything to serial control for reliability and two way status.

I will soon be adding the rain8 controller for irrigation this spring. I just installed a hot tub so a Jandy controller is in my future. That will require serial control since there is no driver.

Ever since ml3 I have never had my system just go down because the software failed. It has gone down because the power went out, but usually starts backup on its own. Once I had it hang on the boot screen which stopped everything. Agai this was a pc failure not software failure.

I attribute most of my reliabilty to a simple setup (that does most everything) with minimal pc's/software and serial/driver/plugin control for everything.

Hope that helps!

There's also zero chance i'll schlep around to each machine to copy files locally every time I change an interfce, because that's a monstrous waste of time. You gain security and performance with CQC, but you give up the luxury of building interfaces offline and on an airplane.
Am I reading that correctly IVB? Surely you can design as many interfaces as you want offline?

Am I reading that correctly IVB? Surely you can design as many interfaces as you want offline?

My definition of the word "design" means to actually create an interface, build up the widgets, do the coding, etc. By that definition, no, you cannot design interfaces while offline. You cannot use the Interface Editor when you're not on the network. There are some folks who've figured out some network port forwarding/VPN thingey for when they're on the 'net, but that doesn't help you when you're on an airplane.

There's workarounds, such as installing a 2nd master server on your laptop and exporting my main templates and importing onto the laptop. When I return, I do the opposite. When I did my Hawaii trip last year, that's what I ended up doing. It's a little bit of work, so not to be taken lightly. This year, I may look into that port forwarding,

It's the price to pay for a true network-distributed architecture.

Let's phrase the question a different way to make sure we are on the same page. I could care less if I have to be running the server on a laptop. What I want to know is - let's assume I have 10 different customers that I want to implment CQC for. Can I design the interfaces and do the coding for each Client from a laptop on an airplane? i.e. a standalone laptop.

I'll speak technically and not care about licensing, as I presume CIs have that covered elsewhere in their CQC Authorized integrator agreement.

Yes, you can design an interface on a server running on your laptop, export it, go to your client site, import it, and be in business.

There's a few things you need to be cognizant of (ie, driver names/template names/etc), but it's the same basic theory that I do given that I share all my templates with folks. Really not that big a deal at all.

I don't think that the question is really 'what could possibly be accomplished' given either product and an infinite number of monkeys, or however that scenario goes. It's more an issue of architecture, having a broad and deep foundation, and long legs.

It's already been discussed, I think it was on this thread, how architecturally sophisticated CQC is. And the difference shows if you take the time to use it. We have many times over more proprietary (read: we control the quality) software technology than any other software based automation product, and the result is a highly integrated system wherever everything was designed from the ground up to work together.

We now require very little in the way of external software. We are down basically to things like ZoomPlayer and TheaterTek for folks who want software renderers. But mostly everything is there, fully integrated into the product, from object oriented macro langauge, compiler and debugger and runtime libraries, to fully networked infrastructure, CD ripping and media management, graphical interface design tools, web server, driver development and macro develoment tools, and so on.

It's the difference between a patchwork of tools, and a built to purpose toolkit. They can both be made to work, but most people would like to own the purpose built toolkit. It's a matter of superior sophistication and technology that allows for greater flexibility, more control over quality, and tighter integration of the tools. And when there are problems, we can fix them quickly and completely, which is an enormous advantage we have over other products that depend on various third party technologies.

I'll just give an example... We have our own web server. Our own OO macro language is built into the web server, so you can write dynamic page generation code using our OO language and IDE. So you can just open up the IDE, write a handler, press save, and there it is available to the web browser. It doesn't require setting up any shared drives or copying any files around. You can also fully test it out in the IDE before you even deploy it since the IDE can emulate the web server environment.

You can also embed images in your web pages directly out of our image repository, so that you can use the same images in your CQC interfaces and your web pages. And there's no hacking or setting up third party tools to do it, it's all built in out of the box.

Another example is that since we have our own OO language and IDE, you can develop drivers completely within the IDE, because it can emulate the same environment that the drivers run in inside CQC. So without any changes or conditional code or anything of that nature, you can develop, debug, and deploya, a very complex device driver, without using a single external tool, all from any client in the system. In other systems, you'd have to use some third party language, like VB or .Net or something, with third party tools, and then copy files around and so forth. Yeh it works, but it's not in the same league in terms of sophistication.

Another example... You wife yells that there's some problem, you don't have to get up and go look. You can read through the logs and check the status of the CQC system from any machine. All CQC programs log to a centralized server, and you can watch the logs in real time or spelunk and see what's been logged after the fact. And of course customers commonly send us log dumps which helps us quickly tune in on the problem and help them out. That's possible because we have a distributed object infrastructure and ORB and standardized pluggable ORB interfaces for logging.

Another example... I'm sitting here right now ripping CDs in my bedroom using our repository manager. So I can do all the metadata retrieval and rip and it uploads the data to the repository where it's immediately available. There's no need for J.River or exporting XML and so forth. That requires that we have our own backend repository architecture and all of the distributed interfaces to manage it remotely. And, those interfaces are exposed via our OO language runtime, so that you can access the repository easily in macros or drivers.

And another example... Since we have our own user interface designer, which is fully integrated into our system, our user interfaces in 2.0 have become pretty sophisticated. It's really an object oriented system, not just in that you plop something on the screen and then configure it, but in that the widgets can talk to each other. So you can have one widget changes another widget's color or what image it displays or what text it displays.

And since it's built right in, if you want to reference this or that piece of system information, it's available for selection right there inside the interface design tool. I'm not sure how, for instance, in ML if you have some button or something and you want it to generate a command, how you enter that command. But in CQC, you have all of the CQC specific fields and IR commands and various replacement tokens and such available via popups and menus. It's a huge help in generating user interface based logic. Since ML uses the flash editor, I assume you have to type in those types of commands manually and manually look up references to the things you want to control?

And because of this architecture, things like the cover art browser doesn't have browsing buttons built in, you can put the buttons where you like and just select the browser as the target and send it commands to show text or image or select movies or music or scroll back and forth and so on. So this allows you to have whatever look and layout you want, without having to be limited by to a skinning type system of fixed functions and commands. You can really create quite sophisticated interfaces in a completely point and click sort of way, in which the logic implemented isn't just for controllng the devices but also for controlling the interface itself. But it's done through teh example same interface that you configure the logic for controlling devices. YOu don't have to do flashy stuff in this interface to set up the widget interactions and then go to this other thing to type in devcie control logic. It's all fully integrated.

And of course since it's all fully networked, all of the images, macros, and other templates you need to reference as you design are there available from any machine without any file sharing or anything like that.

And another example... Since we have our own user interface viewer tool, as apposed to a flash viewer, we can provide a dedicated external control interface for the interface viewer itself. So you can load the interface viewer driver and drive the interface via IR remote or via an interface on another machine (such as popping up the interface on the projector to select movies but controlling it via a tablet from the couch.) You can hide or show the IV, move around, invoke things, blank the screen and so forth via the control interface. Here again, it's tight integration of our own tools that allows this.

Anyway, CQC is not for everyone obviously, since it's really a professional system in the end. But for those folks who prefer to use the big iron, it's really what they are looking for.

N.B. CQC does have popup/slideout stuff. They aren't just menus, they are just small regular user interfaces that can have any thing on them. They just slide out and slide back in (and can optionally play a WAV on the way in and out.)

Let's phrase the question a different way to make sure we are on the same page. I could care less if I have to be running the server on a laptop. What I want to know is - let's assume I have 10 different customers that I want to implment CQC for. Can I design the interfaces and do the coding for each Client from a laptop on an airplane? i.e. a standalone laptop.


I don't think any system will allow you to fully design an interface offline, since so much of it is involved in interacting with the actual devices under control and you cannot do that unless you are connected to the actual system. But you can work on visual layout and getting together the images you want and so forth. And of course you write the logic that you think you'll need, but you can't test that until you can actually run it again the actual system.

Our IPs generally just do a remote desktop into the client system, which gives them full control over the client's PC, not just access via CQC. And it insures that they don't have to deal with versioning issues between their systems and what is on the client's system.

But of course you can also VPN into a system, in which case you would just be running as a CQC client of the customer's CQC system. That's something probably better for the customer himself to use on the road I guess, where he has a broadband connection, when he just wants to check the status of the home and so forth.

For non-broadband you can use the web server for remote access.

I don't think any system will allow you to fully design an interface offline, since so much of it is involved in interacting with the actual devices under control and you cannot do that unless you are connected to the actual system.
I'm not sure why you say that. We design our panels "off line" all of the time. Why would I need to be connected to a system to design the GUI? Using a DVD player as an example, I know what commands I want to use and it remains constant regardless of what DVD player I might use. THEN I write the code, which I can also do offline. And THEN I load the code on the system and test it and debug it and make adjustments as needed. And it's imperative that we be able to do it that way because someone might be writing code from their home or a hotel room. Otherwise it would be totally impractical.

I guess I just was considering that 'creating an interface' would include the debugging and making it work part, not just the roughing it in part. But yeh, you can do what you think is right offline and then debug when you get there.

But, just for argument's sake, I can pretty much guarantee you you wouldn't have written my theater's automation logic offline. My devices have a number of quirks and the 'obvious' logic to control them would pretty much go down in flames.

If you are talking about mostly IR stuff, which is send and pray anyway, or not really taking into account a lot of two way feedback, it's easier to do something offline and be fairly sure it'll be ok when you actually test it. But if you are going to do slick, high level functionality that coordinates a lot of devices and has to wait for things to happen and time things and so forth, it's pretty easy to do what you think is obvious only to find out that you have to really restructure it when you throw it at the ugly reality of some systems.

The other thing, in CQC anyway, is that when the actual devices are installed, you have a lot of helper popups and whatnot which will go get information from the devices and present it popups and pick list menus. Some types of devices don't know what the situation is until they are connected, because the device under control has a variable number of these or those, so you lose out on some helping hands in those cases. Obvious examples would be the most important devices like lighting systems and automation panels, which are highly configurable and the driver cannot know what to present to you because he has not information from the device.

Anyway, I'm not trying to make a stand about it. You can of course fully 'create' an interface offline. You just can't actually press the buttons and make things happen until you are connected, and therefore the best of plans can go awry, and you can lose out on some conveniences if you aren't connected.

But, just for argument's sake, I can pretty much guarantee you you wouldn't have written my theater's automation logic offline. My devices have a number of quirks and the 'obvious' logic to control them would pretty much go down in flames.
We use equipment that we have experience with and use our own modules or ones that have been written that we know work. We don't reinvent the wheel every time. If we are using a piece of equipment for the first time, we are going to test it first. So we can write a program and know that most of it will work, subject to debugging. And in our case the majority of debugging is going to be done at our offices anyhow, when we stage and test the system.

But it's not uncommon that a programmer do some work from home and the UI is usually developed first before any programming is done, hence my question.

Anyhow, it sounds like CQC has no issues with this scenario.

Anyhow, it sounds like CQC has no issues with this scenario.

It works fine. That's what I did last year in Hawaii, when the kids were taking their naps/sleeping. I had some screens with a ton of widgets (ie, direct Xantech control page probably has 50-100 buttons), so I intentionally waited until then to do all the donkey work. It was simple but mind numbingly boring, hence the delay until I was in a hotel room with nothing to do.

cavalier240,

I'm sure you knew that your question would have started quite a debate. I'm happy to see that at least this one did not get too far out of control. In the end, this is a personal decision, just like should I buy a Ford or a Chevy. Only YOU know the answer based on your research and test drive.

You are doing the right thing by testing both products for yourself. All of us learn and work differently. What is easy for some is hard for others. Both of these products are very good and there are passionate and talented developers behind both companies. Their approaches are somewhat different as you can see. Some people are very vocal and will be heard loader than others. My main point I wanted to make was just that you keep this personal - try both packages and I'm sure you will find out what works best for you. Take in all of this input and passion from people but don't let it influence what you experience for yourself. At the end of the day, it is your money, your time and your experience, so you just need to choose what feels right.

That said, I want to just make a few comments. I actually hold licenses to both ML and CQC. I have tried or used both packages. Many comments were made about ML being more prepackaged but having the ability to customize as much as you want while CQC is more a build it from scratch tool and invariably more difficult. From my experience (me personally, you need to form your own opinion) CQC just made much more sense to me. Even without a prebuilt 'starter' interface, I was able to build a solid functional interface faster than just customizing an ML one. To me it just made more sense. I struggled in ML to figure out just how to turn a light on or off. Everything in ML is a button and to issue command I either needed to memorize the command or constantly have a manual open to look up and then type in commands. No matter what I wanted to do, it was just a 'button' with a different image and different commands. In CQC, there are a multitude of 'widgets', each with a specific purpose. If I want a push button, I use a command button. If I want a label, I use a static text widget, etc. It was very easy for me to simply place widgets on the screen, choose an associated graphic and use menus and dropdowns to configure behavior. And this has even been made easier in 2.0. ML has had some tremendous improvements, but mainly to the server. That is a nice solid piece. But the designer is still somewhat difficult to use. I'm sure others would disagree and say they think ML is easy to use and makes alot of sense to them. That's why its personal and only you can decide for yourself.

I could go on and on with opinion about price, support, etc. but I just want you to use your own judgment. For me it was easy, CQC just 'fit' the way my mind works. For others it will be different. Just try them both and choose the one you or comfortable with. Like a good car, you will drive it for a long time.

But please also don't fool yourself, like a nice car, you will do upgrades, whether its new tires and wheels, better spark plugs, window tint, etc, you needs and wants will change - it is natural and human. So too will your HA/AVS system as technology changes and your wants change. So also do pick a system you know will grow better with you. For me, I'd rather know that new wheels, tint, wiper blades, etc are included for a small fee than being killed when I want the new stuff which I know I invariably will. Like a BWM, all basic service is included, you don't need to worry about it, other cars you pay for each service.

Only you can decide what fits you best. good luck with your decision.

"If there's no one around at Cocoontech, the biggest DIY HA forum around, only 2-3 people here who have smaller-size installs, then why would we bother taking a chance on something if there's another alternative that's well proven, better hardware support, more secure, the same price (if not cheaper), "

IVB, MainLobby customers "hang around" MainLobby's forum for support. (and call on the telephone). They don't need to rely on a 3rd party website for answers. They are free to go to Cocoontech for any 3rd party info they want too. So, I don't understand your comment.

Don't get me wrong, I too like cocoontech. It's just this PC automation stuff is still relatively new for the dealers / integrators that are the heart of the automation / media control business. Most don't take it serious yet. This tide is changing fast. MediaCenter OS has probably done the most to affect this.

As a followup, it should be known that I have scoured several other forums including the CQC and ML forums and have come across several pages of screenshots, which alone are not that helpful, so please don't just post links to galleries. It is the accompanying explantaions which add value. I only gain value if someone says "this is my interface which I use to do this.... In order to achieve this, I had to buy/write x,y, and z plugins, and integrate it with these X pieces of hardware. I also had to buy x,y, and z programs and graphics packs to achieve this GUI."

Did you find the gallery page on the main CQC website in your scouring? Don't think it covers everything you're asking but is does parts of it. More then just screen shots it covers hardware and layout.

Did you find the gallery page on the main CQC website in your scouring? Don't think it covers everything you're asking but is does parts of it. More then just screen shots it covers hardware and layout.

Sure did. Thanks. I posted this here to hopefully get a collection of systems using the various HA systems for easier comparison.

I have found several images made available by users such as Ripper, which I am trying to figure out how to import into CQC. Thus, how do you import files ending in .cqctmpack ?

Through the Admin Interface, under Administer.Import Package.

However, they need to get redone for V2.0. Those are written for V1.6, so if you are playing with the V2.0 beta they won't work. If you tell me which ones you have, I may have his PNG files. I can email them to you and walk you through how to manually import them. Warning: You don't want to do this for more than a handful of images, it's a bit of a pain.

I'll also harass Dean now to convert those over.

Through the Admin Interface, under Administer.Import Package.

However, they need to get redone for V2.0. Those are written for V1.6, so if you are playing with the V2.0 beta they won't work. If you tell me which ones you have, I may have his PNG files. I can email them to you and walk you through how to manually import them. Warning: You don't want to do this for more than a handful of images, it's a bit of a pain.

I'll also harass Dean now to convert those over.

Gotcha. I have his png files, but the main pages appear to be constructed of multiple different parts which would be a pain to import in pieces.

What is the typical progression of steps when creating an interface? Do most people create the entire thing on a blank slate within the interface editor? I was thinking about using photoshop to create a background with menu locations and section dividers and then just locating widgets in their spots over the background. Which is easier I guess? I ultimately want to have a series of screens with several common elements/menus along the borders, and have the center be function specific.

Gotcha. I have his png files, but the main pages appear to be constructed of multiple different parts which would be a pain to import in pieces.

What is the typical progression of steps when creating an interface? Do most people create the entire thing on a blank slate within the interface editor? I was thinking about using photoshop to create a background with menu locations and section dividers and then just locating widgets in their spots over the background. Which is easier I guess? I ultimately want to have a series of screens with several common elements/menus along the borders, and have the center be function specific.

There are many examples of this....Johnnynine, ellisr, ripper, et al. Simply create a static or dynamic if you prefer menu bar on the left right top and/or bottom, and use overlays in the center to load different info based on the menu button selected. Some use a static header/footer which shows the same info and a static left menu bar for global areas (like TV, Music, Weather, etc.). Then they use a dynamic right menu bar that changes based on the left menu bar selection (for example, selecting TV on the left brings up Mute, Play, Channel, etc. on the right).

Here's one with static left/right, dynamic bottom:

http://www.charmedquark.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=2934

Static left, dynamic right, static top:

http://www.charmedquark.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=2473

Static left, dynamic right, top/bottom header/footer with additional menu buttons mid-bottom:

http://www.charmedquark.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=2759

Static left and top:

http://www.charmedquark.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=2868

It's all over the map. The very graphically inclined like ripper do what you say, then just have invisible command buttons (or maybe just with text) above those locations. Others, like me, aren't that good at creating interfaces, so I just have a basic background, with button images in the widget.

I ultimately want to have a series of screens with several common elements/menus along the borders, and have the center be function specific.
Keep in mind that there's the concept of an "overlay" widget, which means that you create one larger template for your full screen size with an overlay widget with the size of any sub-templates you want to load.
Then, you create a 2nd template that's the same size as the overlay widget, and you load that into the overlay.

This means that you only create that outer template with all the common elements once, and simply swap out internal center screens. It's very fast & efficient, not sure if this is how the other packages work, but it's definitely one of the big strengths of CQC.

Much easier to explain on the concall, but here's some pics.

http://www.myhometheaterpc.com/temp/wrapper_ie.jpg



here's an example of a template that i'd load into that overlay. It's just a regular template, but sized to fit into that widget size.



http://www.myhometheaterpc.com/temp/overlay_ie.jpg

What is the typical progression of steps when creating an interface? Do most people create the entire thing on a blank slate within the interface editor? I was thinking about using photoshop to create a background with menu locations and section dividers and then just locating widgets in their spots over the background. Which is easier I guess? I ultimately want to have a series of screens with several common elements/menus along the borders, and have the center be function specific.


People normally use a background image, though not always. If you look at mine now, they are on a white background since I'm going for a different sort of look. Don't draw the background buttons and LEDs and and such into the background. Those should be separate images and associated with the widgets you drop onto the background. This provides a lot more flexibility since you can just grab a widget and move it in the editor, not regnerate and re-import the backgorund again. And it lets you do things like pressed/unpress images and so forth.

The background image just provides the places to drop them into visually.

BTW, here are a couple videos that will demonstrate the CQC interface system. Just very lightly and it's more oriented towards doing a media repository setup than creating a really fancy interface since it's a media repository configuration tutorial. But you can see how the designer works and fully integrated it is into the product. I'm working on more and will be replacing our current written high level tutotrial with a video one for 2.0.

Part 1 (http://www.charmedquark.com/Web2/Downloads/Video%20Tutorials/FAQ/MediaManagement/Media%20Management%20-%20Part%201.wmv)

Part 2 (http://www.charmedquark.com/Web2/Downloads/Video%20Tutorials/FAQ/MediaManagement/Media%20Management%20-%20Part%202.wmv)

It also demonstrates the 'action editor' which how you make things happen anywhere that things need to be made to happen. In the examples here they are actions caused by clicking on things in a user interface, but the same applies for configuring a scheduled event, or training CQC to react to an IR command and so forth. I'm working on the action oriented parts of the new tutorial tonight, so I'll post those when I get them done.

Question for the MainLobby folks, so I can better understand that package.

How does it allow you to trade info between the 'front-end' and the 'back-end'? Specifically, I just learned about the CQC variables driver, which I just used to create an admin page where I can enable/disable event. It works in conjunction with the if-then logic I put into the event manager to only perform the action if it's "enabled" in that UI.

Here's what I mean:
I created 2 variables in the variable driver called active_hvac and active_irrigation - I can use that to transfer info from the IV to the event manager. This has enabled me to do the following screen.

http://www.myhometheaterpc.com/screenshots/VS20/overlay_admin.jpg

Then, inside the "Start Sprinklers" action, I added an if-then statement around the whole thing testing for true or false.

If System::Equals($(sample-variables-driver.Act..., True)
Devices::FieldWrite(sample-rain8net.1_Zone_1, True)
Devices::FieldWrite(sample-rain8net.1_Zone_2, True)
Devices::FieldWrite(sample-rain8net.1_Zone_3, True)
End

I created 2 variables in the variable driver called active_hvac and active_irrigation - I can use that to transfer info from the IV to the event manager. This has enabled me to do the following screen.

It would be more technically correct to say that you've created flags that can be seen by everyone, and are using them to control whether scheduled events are run or not. Since they can be seen by the user interfaces as well, you can set or clear them via your interfaces.

Basically, the Variables driver is just a driver that talks to nothing, but which you can define arbitrary fields for. So it's a pseudo device that you can make have any fields you want. They aren't associated with anything, they are just there for you to write to and read from as desired. They are used, as here, to provide system wide data values that everyone can see. You could use it to something like zone reservation or that kind of thing as well. In programming terms, you can think of them as network wide variables, hence the driver name.

Setting a variable/flag works pretty much the same way in ML.

Variables in the system are global so they can be read by any other part of the system. So for something like status of device you would create a button in the scene with the variable you wanted. The button could do something simple locally like change color or more complex like limit what DVDs are available when you try to play them. The only difference is where the effect take place. Changing a buttons color or displaying the value of the variable it is handled in client. In the color change example you would adjust the buttons on and off state to be different colors.

For the DVD one, I have 5 changers (Hey I actually watch the extras) and 4 zones of playback. When you select a movie to play it sets a flag/variable in the system for the changer that is playing and starts a countdown for the movie length + 5 minutes + my preMovieManager time. When the next person goes to select a movie the system blocks them from playing any movie on a changer that is already active. The timer is an added safety incase the client disconnects from the server or someone forgets to turn something off.

The logic is added to the system as an automation rule. If you have ever used the Outlook rules wizard then the configuration will work about the same. You select the variable you want (DVDCHNUM), set the condition (equals) then run server macro CHANGERUSE{{DVDCHNUM}}. I use a macro for mine because it is easier for me to debug but I could have it directly display the changer state to the other clients notifying them what movies are available.

The only major difference is the way the rules are written. Because of the wizard you don't directly enter any information, it is all done from pull down menus. The advantage to this is no typos. Nothing like fat fingering a variable then scratching you head for 10 minutes trying to figure out that you were one you typed DVd when it should be DVD. The disadvantage is a slightly slower input method. I kind of wish there was a direct input way of doing it but my typing is bad enough as is ;).

Here is an example MainLobby rule:

Description:
Turns Light#5 on when the Elk Zone 16 is Violated

Usage:
When opening a Garage or Door, automatically turn specified light on if it is dark outside.

Rule:
Whenever mlelkm1_zone_016_statusmsg changes value
- And mlelkm1_zone_16_statusmsg equals Violated - Open
- And currenthmmil is nighttime
--- Then MLServeCmd.MLLighting|On~005

Here's another little How To video that demonstrates some of the programmability of the user interface system. The user interfaces created here are very simple since it's just to demonstrate a particular thing and making it fancy looking would distract from what it's trying to teach.

This one demonstrates how to password protect some of your user interfaces. We could have provided some built in scheme and popuped up a generic dialog box to get login info. But, because our user interface system is so easy to program, it's nicer to just allow you to create your own, so that it can have the same look and feel of the rest of your templates.

The video is here. (http://www.charmedquark.com/Web2/Downloads/Video%20Tutorials/FAQ/Miscellaneous/Protected%20Template%20Access.wmv)

Actually, here is just the list of videos done so far. The coverage is very spotty yet since only 7 are done yet.


Tutorial Stuff

These you would want to do in order.

Installation (http://www.charmedquark.com/Web2/Downloads/Video%20Tutorials/Quick%20Tutorial/Installation.wmv)

Loading Drivers (http://www.charmedquark.com/Web2/Downloads/Video%20Tutorials/Quick%20Tutorial/Load%20Drivers.wmv)

Actions Part 1 (http://www.charmedquark.com/Web2/Downloads/Video%20Tutorials/Quick%20Tutorial/Actions%20Part%201.wmv)

Triggered Events (http://www.charmedquark.com/Web2/Downloads/Video%20Tutorials/Quick%20Tutorial/Triggered%20Events.wmv)


How To Stuff

These are more 'spot tutorials' that don't have any particular order, though some will refer to things learned in others.

Media Repository Part 1 (http://www.charmedquark.com/Web2/Downloads/Video%20Tutorials/FAQ/MediaManagement/Media%20Management%20-%20Part%201.wmv)

Media Repository Part 2 (http://www.charmedquark.com/Web2/Downloads/Video%20Tutorials/FAQ/MediaManagement/Media%20Management%20-%20Part%202.wmv)

Password Protecting Interfaces (http://www.charmedquark.com/Web2/Downloads/Video%20Tutorials/FAQ/Miscellaneous/Protected%20Template%20Access.wmv)

Thanks Dean - I've been pretty busy with the holiday, but I will be sure to view those videos soon!

On a separate note, I was hoping to see more responses to my request made several posts ago to hear about the various user setups including:
1) The software package you are using as the primary HA engine
2) Screenshots (links would be best if possible to ease the reading of the thread)
3) Any additional software/plugins/3rd party systems/graphics/etc that you had to buy/incorporate in order to achieve specific functions
4) Any drivers/plugins that you wrote yourself
5) Ballpark $$ spent to achieve your HA (if you don't mind sharing)

FYI - The user systems forum over on CQC (http://www.charmedquark.com/vb_forum/forumdisplay.php?f=13) has a variety of threads like this. That's what inspired me to even build out my "scorecard" with the bulleted item & cost breakdown for my setup (which I promptly regretted consolidating).

Here's one that talks about various equipment costs (http://www.charmedquark.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=2712).

First of all - thank you all for your timely and informative comments.

My major struggle is with initial investment vs ROI. Assuming I would only need one client machine, that would make the initial cost of MainLobby ~ $285. I would then have to buy any future drivers as I update equipment (which I may not do - I am more inclined to leave it alone once I get it running).

I understand that CQC is a more "feature rich" package; however, I am not sure that I will benefit from that. With CQC, in order to be eligible for future drivers, it seems as though I would be locked into the $95/year, which bothers me since I am not sure if I would ever take advantage of that. Dean, do you have any future plans for allowing for al a carte purchases of just the drivers and upgrades that are needed?

It seems to me that the best first step would be to trial each package to see which one I like and fits my needs best. Dean - how long until the special runs up (i.e. any idea when 2.0 will be released?)


Just to be clear, you only need to purchase MainLobby/MLServer 3 once for your setup. That gives you 5 clients running MainLobby in the home. You do not need to purchase MainLobby for each PC.

MainLobby is not "aimed squarely at the consumer". We had dealers/distributors long before CQC. We have more and more drivers being released weekly that are geared towards the prosumer market. I'd certainly consider our Elk/HAI plugins in this category. Along with Russound and Nuvo. UPB/ZWave/Vantage/etc.

The fact that MainLobby gives you an out-of-the-box solution does not mean it's consumer. It just means its designed to get you up and running faster. If you don't like where we put the button to control volume, move it, remove it, scale it, tint it or do whatever.

We've had almost 40 point releases to MainLobby alone since Version 3.00's release. MLServer 3.00 has had about 142 point releases. All at no charge. Contrary to what's been stated here you would not be charged for a 3.1 upgrade. Our policy has always been we have the "option" to charge at .5 and full point releases. We've waived that option on countless occasions. Including the massive updates recently to DVDLobby Pro 3.5+.

As far as upgrades, yes - MusicLobby and WeatherLobby have been updated with lots more functionality at a cost of $19.99 each. That's piddly winks over the 3 years. I don't foresee any new updates to WeatherLobby 3 - aside from more bonus graphics that will include free along the way.

No yearly maintenance fees - or locking you in. You decide if you want to upgrade.

Cinemar has recently released our own line of hardware which includes the USBIR6. Takes up a slot in your Server machine for that clean professional look:
http://www.cinemaronline.com/hardware.irsolutions.html

We've had almost 40 point releases to MainLobby alone since Version 3.00's release. MLServer 3.00 has had about 142 point releases. All at no charge.


yes, with such massive improvements as the following excerpt from this page. (http://www.cinemaronlineforums.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7198)

November 28, 2006 - Version 3.0.149
Fixes URLEncoding issues with server variables sent to clients.
Adds two new plugins MLDirTools and MLStrings. These are dll versions of Brandon's wsc plugins by similar names.

November 11, 2006 - Version 3.0.142
Fixes several gramatical errors in dialog boxes.
Updates web links to proper locations.
Adds latest version of MLCallerID to distribution

September 28, 2006 - Version 3.0.97
Fixes one issue that was preventing people from entering activation codes.

_________________________________
September 27, 2006 - Version 3.0.96
Fixes registration bug introduced in 3.093.
Renamed WatchDog.exe to MLWatchDog.exe to avoid a conflict with another Watchdog program from Girder.
Adds event logging to certain web server events
Fixes multiple-client connect issues

_________________________________
September 11, 2006 - Version 3.0.84
Fixes a CPU resource issue introduced in 3.0.83


I'm not anti-Cinemar or any other company, but I need to call B.S. when I see it. This type of "gaming" is exactly what leaves a bad taste in my mouth about how companies conduct themselves nowadays.

But I suppose it is a good thing you didn't charge folks to upgrade those grammatical errors and weblinks, or to fix the bug you introduced in a prior release...

We've waived that option on countless occasions. Including the massive updates recently to DVDLobby Pro 3.5+.


I bought Mainlobby and virtually everything else they sell in June 2005 and used it until about February 2006 when I decided to finally leave..I guess one could say I was *unlucky* to be one of those who did not see one single update to the core Mainlobby product during that time.

Months after I stopped using the product Mainlobby 3 was released after being talked about for years and I guess you could say it was your right to charge everybody for a major upgrade however I feel rather cheated for the 8 months I did you use and made many complaints and suggestions and not one was implemented...I never even downloaded and added one upgrade to the core product because one was never released :-)

I'm sure David will be along soon to say "You got what you paid for..you got a full 8 months use" or something ridiculous and forget the bugs mentioned all last year and not one update to the core product was ever released...about all I can say in closing is I'm happy to now be using a product with consistent updates and might I add QUALITY updates...no fluff no filler and most of all I don't have to always hear "Coming Soon" and feel like that means next year sometime in Cinelingo

I'm also not anti-cinemar but if the past experience I had with them is any indication of future support to customers I know to avoid them. :rolleyes:

I'd hate to see posts from "anti-Cinemar" people.

And some minor updates to MainLobby which include the following (which address one of Rippers concerns about not being able to add Up, Down and over graphics of their own). But this is just fluff I suppose. :rolleyes:
Seacrest...out.

======================================
Release Notes for 11/29/06 - Version 3.00.45
======================================
Added
• Support for Flash Based Buttons (Requires Creation of Frames with labels MLUP, MLDOWN, MLOVER within Flash)

Updated Library
• Updated LibraryMainLobby.swf to enable new functionality above


======================================
Release Notes for 11/17/06 - Version 3.00.39
======================================
Added
• MainLobby Menu Bar is now vertically draggable by grabbing light blue area surround buttons

Updated Scenes
• 0019_iport.mls
• 0019_nav_iport.mls

Added Scenes
• 0019_iport_jumpletter.mls


======================================
Release Notes for 11/13/06 - Version 3.00.38
======================================
BugFix
• When using Z-Order, the Hide Button Property was not being moved with other properties

Added Graphics
• logo_iport
• 0019_0526 (Element)
• 0019_0527 (Button)
• 0019_0528 (Element)
• 0019_0529 (Button/Element)
• Text.Sizable (Allows user to define width and height of text box)
Usage: The label field requires three variables separated by the ~
Syntax: myVariable~width~height
Example: {{todaystemp}}~300~40

Added Scenes
• 0019_iport.mls
• 0019_nav_iport.mls


======================================
Release Notes for 10/29/06 - Version 3.00.37
======================================
BugFix
• Fixed Web.NavigateURL~http://www... command that became a problem in Version 3.00.36


======================================
Release Notes for 10/28/06 - Version 3.00.36
======================================
BugFixes
• WebLobby was calling URL's without being requested when sending MLCmd's



======================================
Release Notes for 10/24/06 - Version 3.00.35
======================================
Added
• Scene Options Panel now shows x and y position of RemoteFX2 and RemoteFX layers
• Can use layer as name in setProperty|layer~move~0~0 - layer is replaced with name of FX layer the command is being called from
IE as MLServeCmd:
MLServeCmd.MLCmd|MLCommand~{{clientname}}~setProperty|layer~ move~0~0

Added Scenes
• 0019_horoscopes_aries.mls
• 0019_smooth_home.mls
• 0019_nav_smooth_home.mls
• 0019_menu_main.mls
• 0019_menu_sources.mls
• 0019_menu_zones.mls

Updated Scenes
• 0019_horoscopes.mls

Added Skins
• 0019_0002_1366x768.jpg

Added Library 0019 Graphics
• 0019_0002 (extended size to 1366x768)
• 0019_0013 (extended size to 1366x768)
• 0019_0500(Element)
• 0019_0501(Element)
• 0019_0502(Element)
• 0019_0503(Element)
• 0019_0504(Button)
• 0019_0505(Element - Divider)
• 0019_0506(Element)
• 0019_0507(Element)
• 0019_0508(Element)
• 0019_0509(Button)
• 0019_0510(Element - Divider)
• 0019_0511(Element)
• 0019_0512(Button)
• 0019_0513(Element)
• 0019_0514(Button)
• 0019_0515(Button)
• 0019_0516(Button)
• 0019_0517(Button)
• 0019_0518(Button)
• 0019_0519(Meter)
• 0019_0520(Element)
• 0019_0521(Button)
• 0019_0522(Button)
• 0019_0523(Button)
• 0019_0524(Button)
• 0019_0525(Element)

Update Library Graphics
• 0019_0002 (extended size to 1366x768)
• 0019_0013 (extended size to 1366x768)


======================================
Release Notes for 10/20/06 - No Version Change
======================================
Added Scenes
• 0019_slidingcams.mls
• 0019_nav_slidingcams.mls
• 0019_slidingmeu_02.mls
• 0019_nav_fx2_slidingmenu.mls
• 0019_nav_fx1_slidingmenu.mls
• 0019_horoscopes.mls
• 0019_nav_horoscopes.mls
• 0019_horoscopes_pisces.mls
• 0019_horoscopes_aquarius.mls
• 0019_horoscopes_capricorn.mls
• 0019_horoscopes_sagittarius.mls
• 0019_horoscopes_scorpio.mls
• 0019_horoscopes_libra.mls
• 0019_horoscopes_virgo.mls
• 0019_horoscopes_leo.mls
• 0019_horoscopes_cancer.mls
• 0019_horoscopes_gemini.mls
• 0019_horoscopes_taurus.mls

Added Library 0019 Objects
• 0019_0413 (Background Element)
• 0019_0414 (Background Element)
• 0019_0415 (Button)
• 0019_0420 (Button)
• 0019_0421 (Button)
• 0019_0422 (Button)
• 0019_0423 (Button)
• 0019_0424 (Button)
• 0019_0425 (Button)
• 0019_0426 (Button)
• 0019_0427 (Button)
• 0019_0428 (Button)
• 0019_0429 (Button)
• 0019_0440 (Button)
• 0019_0441 (Frame)
• 0019_0442 (Button)
• 0019_0443 (Button)
• 0019_0444 (Element)
• 0019_0445 (Button)

Updated Scenes
• 0019_nav_home.page2.mls


======================================
Release Notes for 10/18/06 - Version 3.00.33
======================================
BugFix
• After sending a MLCmd to move a layer, sending any MLCmd afterwards would cause the layer to move back to its 0,0


======================================
Release Notes for 10/17/06 - Version 3.00.32
======================================
BugFix
• Problems when editing buttons introduced in 3.00.31 are resolved in 3.00.32


======================================
Release Notes for 10/17/06 - Version 3.00.31
======================================
Added
• 0019_0096 (Background Element)
• 0019_0401 (Meter)
• 0019_0402 (Button)
• 0019_0403 (Button)
• 0019_0404 (Button)
• 0019_0405 (Meter)
• 0019_0406 (Meter)
• 0019_0407 (Meter)
• 0019_0408 (Meter)
• 0019_0410 (Button)
• 0019_0411 (Button)

BugFixes
• After selecting MLCmds, they would frequently repopulate MLCmds into other buttons when using the Up/Down keys while in Design Mode


======================================
Release Notes for 10/10/06 - Version 3.00.30
======================================
Added
• Meter Graphic: 0019_0095 (Meter)
• MLCmd: stopSound
• MLServeCmd: MLServeCmd.MLCmd|MLCommand~{{clientname}}~stopSound


======================================
Release Notes for 10/06/06 - Version 3.00.29
======================================
Added
• Tint and Alpha label to STATES Sliders

BugFixes
• Fix for MusicLobby: Eratic Volume Control



======================================
Release Notes for 09/29/06 - Version 3.00.28
======================================
Added
• MLCmd: playSound|filename.mp3
• MLServeCmd.MLCmd|MLCommand~{{clientname}}~playSound|filename .mp3
• Populated MLCmd drop down with newer commands



======================================
Release Notes for 09/18/06 - Version 3.00.27
======================================
Added
• 0019_0080.1 (Button)
• 0019_0081.1 (Button)
• 0019_0082.1 (Button)
• 0019_0083.1 (Button)
• 0019_0084.1 (Button)
• 0019_0085.1 (Button)

BugFixes
• File Fields in Background Skin and FX Layers are no longer Case Sensitive. IE garden.jpg = garden.JPG
• In scenarios where a BackgroundFX was an SWF and going into Design and Launch mode the OverlayScene would not reappear



======================================
Release Notes for 09/18/06 - Version 3.00.26
======================================
Added
• Scene: 0019_nav_slidingmenu.mls
• Scene: 0019_slidingmenu.mls

BugFixes
• RemoteFX2 or OverlayScene2 would appear on subsequent scenes, variable is now cleared before going to next scene



======================================
Release Notes for 09/17/06 - Version 3.00.25
======================================
Added
New MLCmds to produce sliding animated menus:
• setProperty|<<FXLayer>>~x~<<x coordinate>>
Where FX Layer = RemoteFX, RemoteFX2, BackgroundFX, OverlayFX
Where <<x coordinate>> equals any numeric value
• setProperty|<<FXLayer>>~y~<<y coordinate>>
Where FX Layer = RemoteFX, RemoteFX2, BackgroundFX, OverlayFX
Where <<y coordinate>> equals any numeric value
• setProperty|<<FXLayer>>~move~<<x coordinate>>~<<y coordinate>>~<<speed>>
Where FX Layer = RemoteFX, RemoteFX2, BackgroundFX, OverlayFX
Where <<speed>> can equal 1 - infinity (1 jumps to the x & y position instantly, the higher the number the slower the transition)



======================================
Release Notes for 09/17/06 - Version 3.00.24
======================================
BugFixes
• Background Skins were not loading properly



======================================
Release Notes for 09/17/06 - Version 3.00.23
======================================
Added
• New RemoteFX2 or OverlayScene2 Layer under Scene Options Panels
• New MLCmds:
setProperty|RemoteFX2~visible~true
setProperty|RemoteFX2~visible~false
setProperty|RemoteFX2~visible~toggle
• New MLServeCmd:
MLServeCmd.MLCmd|MLCommand~htpc2~loadOverlayScene2~0014_nav_ games.mls
• New Library 0019 Objects
0019_0088 (DVD Image Frame)
0019_0089 (DVD Image Frame)
0019_0090 (CD Image Frame)
0019_0091 (CD Image Frame)
0019_0092 (Panel)
0019_0025b (Element)
0019_0013b (Element)
0019_0093 (Element)
0019_0094 (Element)
• Scene: 0019_media.musiclibrary.page2.mls

Bugfixes
• Incorrect reference in OverlayScene

Changes
• Scene: 0019_nav_media.fullscreen.mls
• Scene: 0019_nav_home.480.mls
• Scene: 0019_home.480.mls (Samsung Q1 Sample Scene)
• Scene: 0019_nav.lighting.1.mls
• Scene: 0019_nav.lighting.2.mls
• Scene: 0019_nav.lighting.3.mls
• Scene: 0019_nav.lighting.4.mls
• Scene: 0019_nav.lighting.5.mls
• Scene: 0019_nav.lighting.6.mls
• Scene: 0019_nav.lighting.7.mls
• Scene: 0019_nav.lighting.8.mls
• Scene: 0019_nav.lighting.9.mls
• Scene: 0019_nav.lighting.10.mls


======================================
Release Notes for 08/24/06 - No Version Change
======================================
Changed
• Scene: 0019_callerID.mls
• Scene: 0019_nav_media.fullscreen.mls

Added
• Library Object: 0019_0087 (Button)


======================================
Release Notes for 3.00.21 on 08/18/06
======================================
BugFixes
• If startup Scene had no buttons on it, it would show a Library Object Not Found icon

Changed
• Scene: 0019_nav_media.cable.mls

Added
• Library Item: 0019_0003b (Background Element)
• Library Item: 0019_0004b (Button - 70% transparent)
• Library Item: 0019_0004e (Button)
• Library Item: 0019_0006e (Button)


======================================
Release Notes for 3.00.20 on 08/14/06
======================================
Added
• 0019_0003b (Background Element)
• 0019_0004b (Button - 70% transparent)
• 0019_0004c (Button)
• 0019_0006d (Button - 80% transparent)
• 0019_0006b (Button - 70% transparent)
• 0019_0006c (Button)
• 0019_0006d (Button - 80% transparent)
• Scene: 0019_nav_home_c.mls
• Scene: 0019_nav_home_d.mls

Changes
• Changed text label in Startup Options Panel from MLServer Client ID to MainLobby Client Name
• Changed text label in Startup Options Panel from Computer Name to MLServer Domain
• Changed all fonts in Designer to Arial


======================================
Release Notes for 3.00.19 on 08/09/06
======================================
Added
• Library Object: 0019_0075 (Meter)

BugFix
• MainLobby wasn't trying to reconnect to MLServer after loading a scene after the default startup scene



======================================
Release Notes for 08/07/06 Updates
======================================
Added
• 0019_0072 (Decora Switch Top)
• 0019_0073 (Decora Switch Bottom)
• 0019_0080
• 0019_0081
• 0019_0082
• 0019_0083
• 0019_0084
• 0019_0085
• 0019_0086

Changes
• Updated Scene: 0019_insteon.mls



===============================================
Release Notes for 08/06/06 - No Version Change to MainLobby
===============================================
Changes
• Updated Scene: 0019_cable.mls
• JPGLoaderTimed01Second - improved reloading for Panasonic IP Cameras

Added
• Scene: 0019_insteon.mls
• 0019_0069
• 0019_0070
• 0019_0071
• 0019_0100 Displays Live Video from Capture Card 1
• 0019_0101 Displays Live Video from Capture Card 2
• 0019_0102 Displays Live Video from Capture Card 3
• 0019_0103 Displays Live Video from Capture Card 4
• 0019_0104 Displays Live Video from Capture Card 5
• 0019_0105 Displays Live Video from Capture Card 6



===============================================
Release Notes for 3.00.18 on 08/05/06
===============================================
BugFixes
• Library Object Not Found would appear when coming from a Scene with no Buttons



===============================================
Release Notes for 08/04/06
===============================================
Changes
• Updated Scene: 0019_callerID.mls
• Updated Scene: 0019_weather.mls
• Updated Scene: 0019_nav_media.mls

Added
• Scene: 0019_weather.02.mls
• Library Object: 0017_0050 (Russound Keypad)




===============================================
Release Notes for 3.00.17on 08/03/06
===============================================
Changes
• Minor Enhancements for future Trial Users.
• Updated Scene: 0019_media.mixer.mls
• Updated Scene: 0019_weather.mls

Bug Fixes
The following items would stop working after loading the same scene twice
• Time.HourMinutes
• Time.AMPM
• Date.Date
• Date.DayMonthDateYear
• Date.MonthDate
• Date.MonthDateYear
• Date.Year



===============================================
Release Notes for 3.00.16 on 07/26/06
===============================================
Bug Fixes
• MLServeCmd.MLCmd|MLCommand~myClient1~Application|maximize wasn't working
• Monitor.TurnOn and Monitor.TurnOff was not working

Added
• Modified MLCmd dropdown to include more commands


===============================================
Release Notes for 3.00.14 on 07/16/06
===============================================
Bug Fixes
• When switching to scenes with no background skin, the prior scene bkgd skin was still showing up
• Attempting Client>Server ping to prevent clients from not disconnecting (mlserverconnect.swf - version 3.04)
• Ping feature requires MLServer 3.0.52 or higher

Added
• Library0019: 0019_0300 [Progress Bar - requires 0 - 100 value]
• Library0019: 0019_0301 [Progress Bar with Time Code Display - requires two variables in label field separated by a ~]
• ie: {{mldevicemanager_media_percent_done_001}}~{{mldevicemanager _current_mediatime_001}} (will not work with
• First value represents a percentage and must equal 0 - 100
• Second value can be any label but was designed for a timecode display (01:52:31)



===============================================
Release Notes for 3.00.13 on 07/12/06
===============================================
Bug Fixes
• Resolve some systems problem of saving out "0" byte files
• When Opening some scenes, all locked graphics would become unlocked.



===============================================
Release Notes for 3.00.11 on 07/10/06
===============================================
IMPORTANT: This update requires MLServer 3.0.25 or higher
Bug Fixes
• When changing a graphic through Library List box then moving button using arrow keys, object would cycle through Library objects instead of Moving
• When Opening a Scene while in Design Mode, any objects that were programmed to be nonclickable could not be selected without pressing DESIGN first


===============================================
Release Notes for 3.00.10 on 07/06/06
===============================================
IMPORTANT: This update requires MLServer 3.0.25 or higher

Added
• Font: Tahoma
• Library Object: 000_0031

Changes
• Updated 0019_media.mls
• Updated 0019_security.mls
• Updated 0019_media.movies.mls

Bug Fixes
• Display Options had incorrect 840x480 display reading instead of 800x480


===============================================
Release Notes for 3.00.9 on 06/14/06
===============================================
IMPORTANT: This update requires MLServer 3.0.25 or higher

Changes
• Associated MLS files with MainLobby again

Added
• Skins > Windowsbkgd_1024x600.jpg



===============================================
Release Notes for 3.00.8 on 06/14/06
===============================================
IMPORTANT: This update requires MLServer 3.0.25 or higher

Added
• Options > Display 800x480 Button
• Skins > 0019_0001_01.jpg

Changes to Library0019
• 0019_0002 (extended to fit 1280 width)
• 0019_0013 (extended to fit 1280 width)
• 0019_0014 (extended to fit 1280 width)
• 0019_0023 (extended to fit 1280 width)
• 0019_0023 (extended to fit 1280 width)
• 0019_0009 (enlarged click area)


===============================================
Release Notes for 3.00.7 on 06/11/06
===============================================
IMPORTANT: This update requires MLServer 3.0.25 or higher

Added
• Added MLCmds: (Case Sensitive)
• Can be called from an MLServeCmd of another computer: MLServeCmd.MLCmd|MLCommand~clientname~Application|Move~20~20
• Application|Move~x~y (where x and y are coordinates)
• Application|Shift~x~y (where x and y are relative coordinates - see Options > Display. For a 1024x768 display, -80 is absolute 0)
• IMPORTANT NOTE: The entire designer main menu will move with these commands. Make sure you have saved your scene before using



===============================================
Release Notes for 3.00.6 on 06/08/06
===============================================
IMPORTANT: This update requires MLServer 3.0.25 or higher

Added
• Passes MainLobby Version number into MLServer Client Window
• URLEncoding is now being used when communicating between MLServer and MainLobby to support displaying unique characters from MLServer Variables
• MLServerConnect Version Number is viewable on OPTIONS > STARTUP panel (only displays after MLServerConnect version 3.01)

BugFixes
• Text.Multiline wasn't updating
• Text.Multiline wasn't tinting
• Text.Multiline wasn't supporting <br> in MlServer Variables



===============================================
Release Notes for 3.00.5 on 05/28/06
===============================================
BugFixes
• Keyboard Shortcuts were not working in Overlays

I'd hate to see posts from "anti-Cinemar" people.

And some minor updates to MainLobby which include the following (which address one of Rippers concerns about not being able to add Up, Down and over graphics of their own). But this is just fluff I suppose. :rolleyes:
Seacrest...out.



Well that makes me smile knowing you addressed one of my main concerns after 18 months..I may have still been a customer had you started doing things LAST YEAR.

It seems you have some activity now but I'm sure soon you'll have to do a total rewrite of Mainlobby since the compiler guys are out of business?

Just curious Mario..do you pay for advertising here at AVS Forums? I notice the link to Cinemars website under your posts and you also posted a direct link to a product above that you sell...it seems others who have been on AVS for years pay for the sort of advertising you do...perhaps the rules have changed?

And some minor updates to MainLobby which include the following (which address one of Rippers concerns about not being able to add Up, Down and over graphics of their own). But this is just fluff I suppose.


Eh, yes, 99% of that is fluff. You're claiming victory for free upgrades that (other than #45 with the flash button thing), basically addressing bugs and add buttons? That is a pretty low bar. That type of logic scares the crap out of me, as I'd be petrified how little you would do and claim it's a real upgrade, and i have to pay.

Avoiding ludicrous claims like that is exactly why I don't have an issue with $95/year at all.

- Seacrest way out

(see, I can be just as cool and condescending as you or DavidL. Aren't you all terribly terribly impressed? )

IVB - for someone who is not "anti-Cinemar" - you have a great way of belitting everything Cinemar does. Claiming Cinemar charges for all new graphics. So when we give them away with updates, you now say that it's just graphics. It's kind of like a little brother who just says "So!" after everything you say.

The only reason I'm participating in this thread is to combat all the little "dings/comments" i've been seeing and false statements that have been thrown out so loosely (ie consumer vs prosumer). If they were accurate that's one thing - but they are not. No - I don't have time to go through all your posts and point them out. We could go on and on about why one product is better than the other and how my Dad could beat up your Dad. Every thread turns into the same discussion.

It's amazing how the most vocal campaigners who say they are not "anti-Cinemar" have never even used the latest version. Or in some cases - haven't used it beyond a trial years ago.

I'm very good about "not" bashing others wares - especially when I haven't used them. It's very unprofessional and childish - especially in a public forum. I prefer not to stoop to even this level. However, when I see this many jabs being taken that are not true - it doesn't sit well. I'd hope you'd extend the same professional courtesy and only discuss the products you use and really know.

Cinemar's dealers are out on the job doing real installs and don't have time to participate in these discussions - and I would prefer not to as well. In the end, the thread ends up containing useless information.

As I've always said, try out CQC and try out MainLobby - let the user decide. One is deveoped right brain and the other left brain. Each has their pluses and minuses.

I don't understand the problem with updates being constantly released, even if to fix minor problems.

As I understand it (and I was lurking on the Cinemar forums before ML 3 was available, so I followed the controversy), one user's issue was that there were no releases for months prior to ML3. Now that they are consistantly providing updates, they are faulted again.

Sure a lot of these may be very minor, but at least they're addressed and users are not told "wait for the next big release".

If they're going to integrate new features/fixes/etc it would only be expected that the version be updated.

I interpret that the problem is that Cinemar is stating they released xxx updates, and some users take that as meaning leaps and bounds are made with every point release.

I guess that having been compiling software for years gives me a different idea-- it's being supported.

I don't own either product.. yet. I have found this thread to be a great help though.

Tim

Point taken, please educate me on Cinemar. Let's start with your upgrade comment, and educating me on that.

Where are these 142 product upgrades that you've done for free? Were all 142 released to the public, or were they really just internal build/releases? I only see release notes for 17 of them on your site, where 3.0.8 was the production release. Furthermore, only 8 seem to have any new functionality or graphics, most of those even added a single command or driver that most users wouldn't even notice. I'm sorry, but I can't consider a bugfix an upgrade.

If you want to understand my frustration, it's this: Truth in advertising. That's all i'm after, and i've yet to see that.

I'm am also trying to decide between ML and CQC and this thread has been helpful. Take out all the crap that AVS seems to attract (don't seem to get this too much on Cocoontech) and there has been a lot of good infomation. I think there are alot of active and vocial CQC users on the web (a good thing) and maybe not as many ML users (not necessarily a bad thing). Dean and IVB have been great about answering questions and providing info, and so has Mario and Smoothtlk. Thanks for your time everyone!

--Jamie

IVB- not sure if you're addressing me?

royalj7- I was thinking the same thing! It appears that CQC has more users on the web that are willing to help out and are passionate about it. To some people that could sell a product. Definitely not something that should be overlooked. Not to say MainLobby doesn't have the same (LathanM), but it appears the scales are tipped in CQC's favor.

As I don't know if I was being addressed above, I would like to add that it appears that Cinemar makes a distinction between "update" and "upgrade". It's second nature to me, but I did go back and look. Searched this thread for "Upgrade" and it was only used by Mario in one post, and he did state they had charged for some *Lobby upgrades, and reserved the right to charge for MainLobby upgrades. An upgrade would be at a .5 or better. His point was that the user decides whether or not to upgrade. Semantics really, but after looking back it does appear the MainLobby crew uses the terms religeously. It's not all that true either, as IVB mentioned the flash buttons could be considered an upgrade, not an update (semantics, again).

Although I don't think that's much different than CQC, really. You can choose not to pay the $99 to CQC as well. I don't know how the EOL of each product is structured. eg if MainLobby 4 is a $100 upgrade, and you choose not to do it, is MainLobby 3 supported at all? Same question would go for CQC-- if you don't pay the $99, how long is your current system viable.

Something that I would relate is *nix kernels. For a looooong time after FreeBSD 5 was out, 4.x was still receiving security updates. No additional functionality really, but if a bug was discovered, it was fixed. I am the kind of guy that once something works, I don't want to upgrade to the latest-greatest version until everyone else works out the bugs for me :)

Tim

Our policy is that we will only do about 5 or fewer new releases (or updates or upgrades or whatever you call them) a year. This has been the case for three years now. Our product is very solid so we've just not had any need to do lots of small fix type releases. And it's a pain for our customers to upgrade multiple machines in their system and so forth. Of course that means that they tend to be pretty significant, even when they are a dot release.

We are coming up on our 3 year anniversary since 1.0, and our releases so far have been:

1.0, 1.1, 1.1.1, 1.1.2, 1.1.3
1.2
1.3.10, 1.3.13, 1.3.4, 1.3.5, 1.3.6
1.4.15, 1.4.22, 1.4.23
1.5.6, 1.5.7
1.6.2, 1.6.5, 1.6.20, 1.6.21

And we are about to do 2.0 of course. So I think that it shouldn't be about who put out the most patches and fixes, but who had the least need for patches and fixes.

We do of course put out some number of beta releases before each official release. But we usually only have 5 to 10 such beta drops. Even on 2.0, which is a huge upgrade, will have only about 23 to 25 drops over the last few months.

The only reason I'm participating in this thread is to combat all the little "dings/comments" i've been seeing and false statements that have been thrown out so loosely (ie consumer vs prosumer). If they were accurate that's one thing - but they are not.

One mans opinion..and he happens to be the person selling the product.

As for the "dings/comments" and false statements you claim have been thrown out I sure hope you're not insinuating my comments are not accurate?

I started using Mainlobby in June 2005..I believe the first thing I purchased was July 2005 and you can check your records and see I purchased virtually everything you sold at the time.

Now...check your records or I'm sure you can recall from your own mind the amount of updates to the Mainlobby product between June 2005 and February 2006...got a list of all the updates you can post?

Mario...when you and your sidekick come into a public forum and advertise your product like you do then I guess you should expect both good and bad comments, nobody is gonna bow down and kiss your @ss and praise your product if they know different...

As for your comment

In the end, the thread ends up containing useless information.

Quite the contrary...in fact I think its a good thing for people like me to point out my experience with your product and the company overall, if you don't like it.. oh well.. but please don't whine and make it seem like people are unfairly picking on Cinemar..I can back up any of my words any time and this thread is far from containing *useless information"

I have tried out both products for many months at a time and also had the pleasure to deal with the employees from both companies in their support forums and through email...its unfortunate for Cinemar I had the experience I did with your company during the 8 months or so and now I post in a public forum I have visited for many years...long before these products existed.

**You and David both may recall when I made complaints on the Cinemar support forums many times my comments/threads were deleted when I was asking for help or simply asking "Why no updates?"(other users posts were deleted also)...its unfortunate now afterwards that you can no longer delete my comments at your whim and act like some sort of overlord with an attitude after I spent $1000 with your company.

This is a public forum and anyone is entitled to their opinion whether you like it or not...unfortunately for Cinemar if you choose to publicly advertise and gloat your products on one of the largest forums on the Internet every comment will not be positive and posts and threads won't be deleted like they are in your forums..if you or David choose to come to AVS and freely advertise your product expect more than few people to comment just as they do with every other product mentioned here.

Again, just to set the record straight, to date there have been two Cinemar users that Cinemar has had to delete more than a couple posts (outside of outright spammers) as they did not comply with our forum policies. Since then, there have been none. And, only one has been banned. This is out of thousands in our customer base. That is the statistic.

Dean- Your point about "releasing the most patches" is a point well taken. I agree that if you have a solid base there will be less bug fixes. Since I'll only be requiring one server, and am used to constantly applying patches, I kind of like the constant updates. But again, you make a good point.

Ripper- good point as well. Not every post will be positive, and that's what makes this thread great. Pointing out problems is invaluable to those of us making decisions, as long as it is done in a respectful manner. Believe me, I remember the complaints on the Cinemar forum (I don't know who was making them, but I would bet money they were from you), as well as the posts being deleted (something I take issue with).

For the purposes of my own selection, I would like to know what happens when you don't elect to upgrade or pay the maintenance fee. Are the older products given any support, or are you on your own? I'm sure that either company would answer an email, but if there is an issue such as a programming flaw, does either package address those in the older versions? We know the answer in ripper's situation; has there been any change? How about CQC?

Thanks,

Tim

Again, just to set the record straight, to date there have been two Cinemar users that Cinemar has had to delete more than a couple posts (outside of outright spammers) as they did not comply with our forum policies. Since then, there have been none. And, only one has been banned. This is out of thousands in our customer base. That is the statistic.

Just a note to others..postings of mine that were deleted were in reference to updates/upgrades to the Cinemar product(s) I had purchased..I had every right to ask during my 8 months of use "When will new updates be released"? and think I deserved more than "Coming Soon" which in Cinelingo means "many months from now"...as mentioned 8 months and NO UPDATES to the core product, perhaps David will say something silly like "It ran perfect during that time and therefore didn't need updates" :-)

If my postings regarding "When will new updates be released"? were some sort of violation of some forum policies on a support forum I guess I don't need to say much more.

Seems rather absurd that I purchase your product and ask legitimate questions concerning when it will be updated on your forums and then you delete my posts..spin it anyway you want David but your actions were uncalled for and I chose to defend myself in your forums...in fact you realized more than once after deleting posts you had did the wrong thing and magically the threads returned...you would think I should be able to ask about updates to all the products I purchased without having posts/threads deleted?

You can try to poke me with a stick after the fact but I assure you if you want to press the issue publicly I have the threads archived somewhere and can post them to show your attitude towards me when I asked about updates to products I purchased..the postings in question did not violate your forum policies otherwise I would have dropped it long ago, plain and simple you deleted my posts because you couldn't provide an adequate answer to my questions and felt I was making Cinemar look bad so instead of providing a truthful or reasonable answer to my questions you took it upon yourself to delete my threads and posts..the worst thing you could have done.

For the purposes of my own selection, I would like to know what happens when you don't elect to upgrade or pay the maintenance fee. Are the older products given any support, or are you on your own? I'm sure that either company would answer an email, but if there is an issue such as a programming flaw, does either package address those in the older versions? We know the answer in ripper's situation; has there been any change? How about CQC?

If there's a fatal flaw found in the last few official released versions, we'd obvious fix it if it's fixable and someone is still using it. But we don't back-port improvements to old versions and maintain multiple code streams. It's too complex and takes too much away from existing release work. But we don't have many customers stay on old versions becasue our new releases are solid and provide so many benefits.

If you don't pay the upgrade fee, and you decide to upgrade at some point, you would have to pay the fee plus the penalties, which makes it come out more than just paying the owed upgrade fees. It's 5% per month, so if you didn't pay for a year, and then upgraded, it would cost you $152 instead of $95. Two years and it would cost you $304.

Wow, where to start?

First things first I see CQC advertising 10 fold to Cinemars in these forums, I actually found out about Cinemar from a friend of a friend or a friend type scenario. Just because you put in your signature that you aren't an employee of a company, really means boo squat. On the internet anybody can say anything and whether theres freebees or free support or other fringe benefits, who would know, who would care. I do notice a massive amount of Cinemar bashing and some even came from me but I felt I paid for stuff that wasn't working and 96% of that was my fault but if theres anything I hate more its digging through forums asking questions about automation, I would rather be installing a plugin and "BOOM" it works, most of my Cinemar problems were because I was completely new to this stuff but there are a couple bugs I have but it seems its more the fault of my security cameras than Cinemar, the other being status of Insteon not performed in Cinemar not appearing on a regular basis, with all the Insteon bashing that goes on I figure its an Insteon problem.

Other than that, last night I installed DVDLobby and TheaterTek last night and was amazed at how fast I had Movies loaded with Cover art, description and tons of info done by typing the movie title and everything was loaded and available in an instant, my friend I was talking too while doing this did this with 250 movies in 3 hours and can watch these from any client, While we were helping eachother I loaded a Denon plugin and have complete control of my Denon 5805 with a premade client scene ( all buttons and zones done). I also setup my projector, HD DVR, and Lumagen scaler via USB-UIRT and made a command button that fires all these items ( I cant seem to get the PJ power because its a press and hold) so I had a good night that followed a couple days of having a real good day when I got a Jandy pool controller operating via wireless rs232, the plugin was a 3rd party plugin wrote by another Cinemar user that wrote his own plugin including the client scene. I have several other things that are amazing and working but it would take alot to list everything I have rockin & rollin now and all I have left is ELK stuff.

I showed up for a couple CQC meetings and the first one was extremely fun and the people were great, helpful and knowlegable about CQC and we spent 6 hours having a great time discussing possibilitys. We worked on a weather page and after about 30 minutes of them trying to explain to me how to get everything working we basically had a cloud on my scene page with the temperature, I imagine to make a page that resembles my 3 page weatherlobby scenes would take me about 2 days to build in CQC ( OK maybe a day but I find CQC very hard to navigate, I even notice the pros have troubles remembering where they are at while watching them in action) From a complete idiots point of view I can tell CQC is way over my head and its just to split up into so many areas that its confusing to figure out where to even start and I really don't want to follow tutorials time and time again to get moving at a fast pace. Cinemar I resort to calling support if I get in a jam I cant figure out but I have a tendency to go overboard with what I want to do.

Mainlobby is cake to make scenes in and was fairly fast to learn because everything is done on one page, the downfall is also its best asset..........its Flash based and for a guy like me that likes to do all his own graphics I need a $500 program to do so, Im just picky, most would find the provided buttons more than sufficient. Flash when done right just looks amazing on my clients, the CQC scenes never really did much for me even though many have preset scenes you can use, I would never be able to figure out how to tint and alter their stuff, let alone make my own.

Insteon was a huge deciding factor to me because I guess Im the only guy on the planet that it works for and the CQC folks seemed less than enthused about it so you rely on third party stuff that is basically hit and miss to make it function in groups and such, Cinemar is on the verge of releasing their newest Insteon plugin ( hopefully in the next day or so) that will basically let you do anything and everything from inside Cinemar including extensive grouping of dimmed/ramped rates, they have already wrote and sent me extensive macros to get me by until the finalize their plugin. Im not sure where all this " you pay through the nose for Cinemar" comes from, so far I have got freebee after freebee from the owners and other members writing plugins, maybe not the plugin itself but addendums only a nutjob like me would think of I would like to see so they spend hours writing updates and I think I was the only one crying about Insteon grouping so I feel sort of guilty for whining about it but they are addressing it and its obviously a SOB. You can write your own plugins until the cows come home if you want, I have had people notify me that they have wrote plugins I can try and so far they all work great and were free. I have spent around $600 on Cinemar and I figure I have about $150 more and Im done, I would really hate to see how many days I would have spent making DVDLobby in CQC and loading all the art and such and having it all run properly in theaterTek with a customized remote and coverart. It took me all of about 30 minutes in Cinemar downloading 2 plugins, ten or fifteen settings, and one button push to gather all the DVDinfo/art. Time is money and free phone support is really, really, really attractive.

Inaccurate Ripper.

First things first I see CQC advertising 10 fold to Cinemars in these forums, I actually found out about Cinemar from a friend of a friend or a friend type scenario. Just because you put in your signature that you aren't an employee of a company, really means boo squat. On the internet anybody can say anything and whether theres freebees or free support or other fringe benefits, who would know, who would care.

For the record, we offered Vivek soem freebies, not for anything he says here or elsewhere but for helping out newbies so much. He turned us down. Whatever his motivations, they are not driven by any benefits he gets from us.

As to your other points, this has been disucssed already pretty thoroughly. CQC is not designed to be fast, it's designed to be deep and flexible, since that's what is most important in the professional market. The differences will be apparent in the ways that you saw. It's pro/pro-sumer tool and assumes that the enormous flexibility is worth the extra effort. If it is not for you, then it may not be what you want. Professionals, OTOH, will hold flexibility and depth to be all important. They will learn the tools and apply that experience over and over, so the effort is far more amortized for them over time.

Im not sure it is more flexible, everytime someone asks "why is it more flexible?" people say "Try it and find out". Its a cop out beyond belief. A simple "we can do this, this and that and they cant" should be easy considering the amount of time people spend saying how much more powerful something is.

I will say from a newbies point of view I call something that loads from a plugin and the clients scenes are complete and finished in 5 minutes is pretty powerful to me. Money is powerful, time is money, so............

I know people that are good with computers, networking, writing code, ascii, programming and had them take a look at CQC and they seemed leary that it was easy to grasp for a beginner or even a moderate user, and to have an entire house and theater up and automated was weeks and possibly months down the road. I am pretty sure people that are good with this stuff love CQC and love to tinker and get something to work but I could see frustration in my future since some member had been working for weeks trying to get something going and still experiencing bugs. If I had Johnathons experience, Id probably never leave home and play with automation 24/7 and love it but I came to the conclusion of get it done and get on with life again

Just because you put in your signature that you aren't an employee of a company, really means boo squat. On the internet anybody can say anything and whether theres freebees or free support or other fringe benefits, who would know, who would care.

Well, perhaps no one cares, but as long as it's been mentioned let me absolutely destruct any hint of any perception of any doubt in anyone's mind: I get no money, no freebies of any kind, i'm paying for the new media repository just like everyone else. I turned down Dean so I can say with a clean conscience that I am just a regular joe. I am not an old friend of Dean's, although I did physically meet him once 12 months ago b/c I was going to HomeTech Solutions to get some equipment, and he & ellisr63 live 10mins away.

Everything I do is because my day job is way too stressful, and I need an outlet. Helping folks get up to speed on doing HA is that outlet. I've repeatedly stressed that anyone is welcome to attend the webexes, even if they use another software package.

I hope that eradicates any doubt in anyone's mind about me and my complete and utter independence from either CQC, Cinemar, or anybody else.

I know people that are good with computers, networking, writing code, ascii, programming and had them take a look at CQC and they seemed leary that it was easy to grasp for a beginner or even a moderate user, and to have an entire house and theater up and automated was weeks and possibly months down the road. I am pretty sure people that are good with this stuff love CQC and love to tinker and get something to work but I could see frustration in my future since some member had been working for weeks trying to get something going and still experiencing bugs. If I had Johnathons experience, Id probably never leave home and play with automation 24/7 and love it but I came to the conclusion of get it done and get on with life again

Well, to each his own. If you search on the Cinemar forums for my name, you'll see that I tried 3x to simply get DVDLobby to work. I tried for hours upon hours. I just couldn't get it to work.

What is intuitive to some is lunacy to others, and that's true for both products.

"it's designed to be deep and flexible, since that's what is most important in the professional market. "

Disagree Dean....time is money. A pro wants to get in , get out, get paid.

What you are describing is a DIY approach who wants everything, because it's cool and a challenge. Our DIY'r have way more complicated systems because most homeowners won't pay for that amount of time investment (to QQQ's point).

**************************************
IVB quotes on Cinemar forum:

"Ok, that's nothing short of brilliant. Elegant yet simple.
Did that same thing - set up a network share, "re-installed" MLS on all boxes but to the same share, works like a champ. Thanks."

"that should be in the FAQ - it's an outstanding picture which answers all my DVDLobby questions. Still have some MusicLobby questions, but I'll post that in the MusicLobby forum."

Another post was answered by me the same morning with no response from IVB.

IVB, in looking through all of your posts (21), I would not have guessed that you were unhappy. I wish that you "spoke up" at the time because you have been a big asset to Dean and it would have been nice to keep you as a customer :)

Im not sure it is more flexible, everytime someone asks "why is it more flexible?" people say "Try it and find out". Its a cop out beyond belief. A simple "we can do this, this and that and they cant" should be easy considering the amount of time people spend saying how much more powerful something is.[quote]

I think I already covered this previously in this thread. It's not what you can manage to do in the end, it's how you can do it. Since the professionals market that CQC targets never would make use of canned stuff (why would anyone pay them for that?), what matters is now flexible it is to do highly customized systems. So the comparison is how hard/easy it is to do an extensively customized system, not how easy it is to set up some canned interfaces. I made a substantial post previously in this thread where I enumerated the ways that CQC makes customization easier beause of it's substantially higher level of integration.

[quote]I will say from a newbies point of view I call something that loads from a plugin and the clients scenes are complete and finished in 5 minutes is pretty powerful to me. Money is powerful, time is money, so............

For the professional market time is also money, and customers are paying the professional for their time to create a highly customized solution. So the time in which that can be done is what is important. So the same rule applies, just in a different situation, which creates a very different type of emphasis.

Mark,
Since I'm none of the things you mention I can attest that it is possible for someone to setup CQC in fairly short order. I'm only doing straight theater type control, nothing fancy, but the only painful part was creating a driver that I needed. The rest of it was straight forward to set up the templates to run my system with a couple days effort. Again nothing fancy there but all of the required settings are automated to select any controlled device along with on/off etc. I wouldn't say that a completely non-technical person could get there but you don't need to be the ultimate computer geek either.

Disagree Dean....time is money. A pro wants to get in , get out, get paid.

What you are describing is a DIY approach who wants everything, because it's cool and a challenge. Our DIY'r have way more complicated systems because most homeowners won't pay for that amount of time investment (to QQQ's point).

That is not what custom installers tell us. They do want to get in and out as quickly as possible for what needs to be done, but they also have to justify their price and differentiate their services, and they do that by a high level of customization. So a product that allows for a high level of customization is important to them. They will reuse work where possible, but since each system tends to be different, flexibility is an important issue for them.

And of course a high level of integration is important to them. A 'best of breed' argument doesn't really go far in the custom installation world really. They want to be dependent on the fewest companies possible.

I'm not an installer myself obviously. I'm just repeating what we've been told. Our product wasn't taken seriously in the installer market until it recently reached that high level of flexibility and integration.

"Disagree Dean....time is money. A pro wants to get in , get out, get paid.

While I'm sure many custom installers are like this, I sure wouldn't want one with this attitude working on my project. I want an installer who charges a fair price and included in that price is his time to make sure that everything is working properly and might even include a free follow-up visit a month or two later to fine-tune stuff after I've used it for a while.

I've had experience with contractors who have the attitude you stated above and those are the ones to stay away from.

Mike_W

Mike_W,
Yes, I understand your point and agree from that perspective. The installer is a businessman. It's a balance act. I am saying that to an installer, Efficiency for profit is key. If you can get to X level in 1 day, vs. X level in 10, which will make you more competitive and be able to spend more time consulting with your customer and listening to customer needs?

The point is that it takes less effort to do any level of customization with MainLobby. Works out of the box for the basic (still more powerful than great majority of systems), and is highly customizable for the high end customer that wants their look and navigation and function that is different for each location in the house. MainLobby covers both spectrums. You can get most running in a night, or take the next year to micro customize everything. All depends on what you want to do. The tools are not the limitation.

Mike_W,
Yes, I understand your point and agree from that perspective. The installer is a businessman. It's a balance act. I am saying that to an installer, Efficiency for profit is key. If you can get to X level in 1 day, vs. X level in 10, which will make you more competitive and be able to spend more time consulting with your customer and listening to customer needs?

The point is that it takes less effort to do any level of customization with MainLobby. Works out of the box for the basic (still more powerful than great majority of systems), and is highly customizable for the high end customer that wants their look and navigation and function that is different for each location in the house. MainLobby covers both spectrums. You can get most running in a night, or take the next year to micro customize everything. All depends on what you want to do. The tools are not the limitation.
Correct of course. The philosophy that is, I have little interest in this CQC versus ML thing, 90% of which seems to me to be strongly biased opinions as opposed to facts. Anyhow, there must be balance/common sense in everything and it's perfectly legitimate for a business person to consider ease/time of setup required for a product and how much time it will take to accomplish xyz. And it's in no way anti-consumer either. It's the entire reason C4 has managed to attract a good DIY following. Because it allows a lot of people to get up and running very quickly which equals time if you are doing it yourself and money if you are paying someone to do it.

Taking the above into consideration no way (*necessarily*) equals the attitude Mike_W implied.

A simple "we can do this, this and that and they cant" should be easy considering the amount of time people spend saying how much more powerful something is.
Mark has issued this challenge several times. Can't one of the CQC fans give a solid answer? Does a lowly Crestron specialist like me need to dream up scenarios for you CQC users ;) :). To be truthful, I could only dream up challenges to post to the ML guys and ask them if they can do the same since I am not familiar with the latest versions of ML at all.

Mark has issued this challenge several times. Can't one of the CQC fans give a solid answer? Does a lowly Crestron specialist like me need to dream up scenarios for you CQC users ;) :). To be truthful, I could only dream up challenges to post to the ML guys and ask them if they can do the same since I am not familiar with the latest versions of ML at all.

Sorry dude, I could easily tell you, but you're just going to have to download both packages and spend 10 hours on each to find out ;)

Correct of course. The philosophy that is, I have little interest in this CQC versus ML thing, 90% of which seems to me to be strongly biased opinions as opposed to facts. Anyhow, there must be balance/common sense in everything and it's perfectly legitimate for a business person to consider ease/time of setup required for a product and how much time it will take to accomplish xyz. And it's in no way anti-consumer either. It's the entire reason C4 has managed to attract a good DIY following. Because it allows a lot of people to get up and running very quickly which equals time if you are doing it yourself and money if you are paying someone to do it.

Taking the above into consideration no way (*necessarily*) equals the attitude Mike_W implied.

Understood. I had a flashback to when contractors would come in and do a crappy job just to get it done and get out as fast as they can. Your point is completely valid.

Mike_W

Understood on my part as well. I definitely know where you are coming from. Before I started my own business I worked for one too many companies where the focus was on getting in and getting out as quickly as possible rather than getting it done right. At many business installers even learn that they will be "punished" for doing a good job, i.e. taking too long and/or giving a customer the correct amount of attention.

Mark has issued this challenge several times. Can't one of the CQC fans give a solid answer? Does a lowly Crestron specialist like me need to dream up scenarios for you CQC users . To be truthful, I could only dream up challenges to post to the ML guys and ask them if they can do the same since I am not familiar with the latest versions of ML at all.

I've answered this a couple times. My answer is that the question is not well formed. In the end, you can probably manage to do anything no matter how primitive the tools. You could write your own custom code worst case to work around most shortcomings.

To the professional installer (or the DIY'er looking to do something on a (semi) professional scale) it's not whether a product can be pushed to a given point given an unlimited amount of effort, but now well designed the product is for flexibility. I addressed this issue in a long post a while back where I enumerated what I think are the things that make CQC more flexible in this practical way.

I see it as two curves on a graph, where the vertical axis is effort required and the horizontal axi is the increasing level of customization and sophistication you can achieve. A product like CQC starts in the upper left and then moves downwards, at some point leveling out for a fairly broad swath, then moving back up as you get into quite high end systems, and then at the end it would shoot up rapidly as you reach sci-fi levels of sophistication.

Other products will start in the lower left and stay pretty flat for a while, and then move upwards because they are easier to start, but as the level of sophistication of the results increases, their orientation towards easy startup or lower level of integration becomes a liability. And then of course they do the same thing at the end and start upwards again and then shoot up.

CQC aims to provide a reasonably low, reasonably flat line across a range of sophistication of results that would map to the average to pretty sophisticated home automation/media management scenarios. In that part of the graph, what is undue complexity in the tools to a casual customer becomes a required level of flexibility to the professional installer or semi-professional customer. We'd obviously over time light to keep that line flat out further and further to the right, and we'll also try where possible to lower it on the left side.

Anyway, that might have been a very over-intellectualized view of the situation, but that's how I see it. I just think that that once the level of sophistication and flexibility gets beyond a low end home automation scenario, the types of tools you need to get the job done need to be of a different sort than when you are doing lower end solutions.

Sorry, but I'm in the same boat with ML which is why I've avoided making the us vs them statements like that. When I was making the call about 3 years back everything I could read on the Cinemar site came across as a HTPC front end first and foremost with some hardware control duct taped on. HTPC control was a non-issue for me so I didn't go there. CQC looked as if it was designed from the ground up as a control system. Everything I've seen lately says ML has moved on and progressed. I'm happy where I'm at so no reason to go through ML again, re-evaluate and second guess. Dean's been doing a fine job of growing the thing so it's still far more capable then I need at the moment and has been from the outset.

Wow Dean, I have no idea what you just said.

I suppose if we're actually answering this question yet again, it's this; If you have a multi-PC environment doing anything more than basic stuff, then distributed secure control is of paramount importance. Most folks in that environment will want the ability to control and/or modify anything from any machine, and use a robust set of 2way hardware drivers to control their equipment.

With CQC, you have that distributed network control.

You have no need for file-sharing, which after my current freakin' wife accidentally taking out something is hurting my non-CQC life.

You have a dedicated and optimized DotNetViewer application, which gives secure access to your regular whole house control templates over your PDA or other smallclient device. Once you get your base setup done, you can also access it remotely over your PDA or inlaws laptop in a safe & secure fashion to turn up the heat before you go home.

You have 130 drivers, probably >100 of which are hardware. You are not locked in to either a single hardware choice for a video switcher, or writing your own driver, you have a choice.

I can't remember what other advantages i've listed in the past, but i'm too tired to make this point yet again. Try the search button, I'm sure i've proselytized CQC here once or twice in the last few months...

I've answered this a couple times. My answer is that the question is not well formed. In the end, you can probably manage to do anything no matter how primitive the tools. You could write your own custom code worst case to work around most shortcomings.

To the professional installer (or the DIY'er looking to do something on a (semi) professional scale) it's not whether a product can be pushed to a given point given an unlimited amount of effort, but now well designed the product is for flexibility. I addressed this issue in a long post a while back where I enumerated what I think are the things that make CQC more flexible in this practical way.

I see it as two curves on a graph, where the vertical axis is effort required and the horizontal axi is the increasing level of customization and sophistication you can achieve. A product like CQC starts in the upper left and then moves downwards, at some point leveling out for a fairly broad swath, then moving back up as you get into quite high end systems, and then at the end it would shoot up rapidly as you reach sci-fi levels of sophistication.

Other products will start in the lower left and stay pretty flat for a while, and then move upwards because they are easier to start, but as the level of sophistication of the results increases, their orientation towards easy startup or lower level of integration becomes a liability. And then of course they do the same thing at the end and start upwards again and then shoot up.

CQC aims to provide a reasonably low, reasonably flat line across a range of sophistication of results that would map to the average to pretty sophisticated home automation/media management scenarios. In that part of the graph, what is undue complexity in the tools to a casual customer becomes a required level of flexibility to the professional installer or semi-professional customer. We'd obviously over time light to keep that line flat out further and further to the right, and we'll also try where possible to lower it on the left side.

Anyway, that might have been a very over-intellectualized view of the situation, but that's how I see it. I just think that that once the level of sophistication and flexibility gets beyond a low end home automation scenario, the types of tools you need to get the job done need to be of a different sort than when you are doing lower end solutions.
While some of you (Mark? :)) will see the above as a cop out, IMO it's actually an excellent answer. To use an analogy, and perhaps to explain what Dean said in a manner that will make sense to a broader group of people, many years ago we used to sell a system by a company named PHAST. If you installed a fairly basic PHAST system without too much customization it could be set up quite quickly and could even include some functionality that a more advanced Crestron or AMX system would not include save without additional and more costly add-ons. But the moment you scaled a system up and wanted some sophisticated functionality (which to the end user might actually = simple, powerful and easy to use) - God help you. It could literally, and I mean LITERALLY, take 8 hours to program something that I could accomplish with the more advanced programming tools in Crestron or AMX in 15 minutes. In actuality you simply learned not to attempt certain things with a PHAST system.

I am not saying that is the case with ML and I'm sure the ML people will say otherwise. I'm simply saying that Dean's explanation is IMO excellent with regards to what truly powerful automation tools offer versus weaker ones. Whether it applies to CQC versus ML I'll let them argue out .

QQQ, no, doesn't apply :)

Not the same analogy at all.
There will be (I am sure) debate on both sides...but here is one example that comes to mind....

In MainLobby, Irrigation control is handled by a mini application. It has a database of your sprinklers, your sprinkling devices and the schedules. It comes with a prebuilt user interface that works out of the box You can set various schedules, view progress of a zone and of the entire cycle and see when it's scheduled to sprinkle next. You can interupt the schedule, or force water a particular zone. Right out of the box. This is what we call a "plugin". It is really an application all by itself.

In CQC, folks have told me that Irrigation is controlled by a central generic database where the user has to define all scheduled actions and the devices. And then build a user interface from the GUI toolbox. The CQC irrigation plugin is software that tells the relay to open or close. Rest of functions is done by the core CQC system.
CQC users might say that this is the more "powerful" approach. And it is. But, it likely takes on the order of 5 times longer to get sprinklers sprinkling.

Now, in MainLobby, there is ALSO a central generic database with a drop down rules builder that the installer can custom configure things.. And it can talk to the sprinkler devices too. And there is a custom graphical toolbox to custom build a UI. So, if there is some odd ball thing that the out of the box system can't handle - you can use the custom path too. I use this approach to control my ponds water features (via "sprinkler" valves and pumps). But for most installs, the out of the box method does a much better job than the wall mounted sprinkler controller in 99% of residential usage. The customer can now manage his irrigation system from any touchscreen in the house (or business). It is now available for interaction with other automation systems like a security system.

Not to be a CQC fanbox but simply to take this direction a little furyther - Dean, couldn't a user also write a CQC module/driver that included timer and scheduling functionality?

smoothtlk, I definitely understand the value of predefined functionality. Like you, I also do not see power versus some predefined functionality as mutually exclusive. I suspect Dean will add more wizard type functionality in the future.

Of course CQC can build that. But it is Work....and this is only one example. There are hundreds. When you add them up, it's a signficant difference in the integrator's profit or loss.

Of course CQC can build that. But it is Work....and this is only one example. There are hundreds. When you add them up, it's a signficant difference in the integrator's profit or loss.

Could you list those hundreds?

Of course CQC can build that. But it is Work....and this is only one example. There are hundreds. When you add them up, it's a signficant difference in the integrator's profit or loss.
I think it is relevant though that people understand that both systems can have pre-defined drivers. That what you are talking about is not some basic difference in architecture but rather the fact that you've taken the time to create a sprinkler driver /add-on. Which I agree is a benefit. It's especially beneficial if you are packaging them with predefined interfaces.

Let's not forget that it's possible to build plugins or modules upon the right architecture relatively easily.

Doing plugins first, then fixing the architecture, well, that's not possible without a major rewrite.

And back to the OP, for $95/year, you'll get those plugins or modules. No worries.

Each product will have things that the other doesn't. A CQC user could just as easy ask, what no built in web server? I have to look up commands and type them into my interface buttons and so forth. All these things will make some difference in a given implementor's speed of implementation, based on what they need to do.

We've chosen the more generic scenario when it comes to almost all device support. The reason being that it's hard enough to get people to write good, reliable device drivers, even when those drivers only need to be direct interfaces to the hardware. When you impose lots of other stuff on a driver, it gets harder for them to do and, if you change that infrastructure that the driver is specialized for, it becomes even harder to get all of them to change their drivers to fit.

By keeping drivers very cleanly oriented towards just the devices they control, and pushing the logic out to CQC itself as much as possible, drivers are easier to write and the system remains less brittle over time.

We do of course have one set of drivers that impose special issues, and that is the media repository and renderer drivers, because we needed to create a very generic media architecture that could encompass many different types of media devices. Unlike a small thing like a sprinkler, media management is a huge chunk of what we have to do, so it was justified in that case I believe, though the tradeoff is that we've not allowed any third parties to write these two kinds of drivers so far, we've done them for now. We need to allow this architecture to become quite mature before we allow it, so that we don't develop evolutionary baggage that will drag us down later.

And of course there is always the concern of having one set of tools to do things, versus creating 'hundreds' of ad hoc tools to do it.

I have to look up commands and type them into my interface buttons and so forth. All these things will make some difference in a given implementor's speed of implementation, based on what they need to do.


Is that part true about ML? I honestly don't know, which is why I ask. I know that one of the things i'm most relieved about with CQC is that I don't actually have to know any command syntax at all - it's all point&click, a la the following. This is how i'd either add a new command button or extend an existing command button.

Frankly, that's why i'm able to add seemingly complex screens so quickly - it's just not that hard, really doesn't take more than 30 minutes to do...

http://www.myhometheaterpc.com/screenshots/temp/widget-types.JPG
http://www.myhometheaterpc.com/temp/select_command.JPG
http://www.myhometheaterpc.com/temp/select_field.JPG
http://www.myhometheaterpc.com/temp/select_value.JPG

I just realized that I don't have even a trial version of ML, so I can't go in myself to see.

Can one of you guys post screenshots of how you'd add a new command button in ML, and how you'd set it up to do something? To keep it simple, you could do the same thing as above - show me how you'd add a button that not only did a single action, but ideally also has some if-then logic in it as well. That way I can get a good mental picture of how it works.

I say this without intending to insult. Some of you guys are out of touch with "ordinary" people :). Yes, I understand the shots you posted above IVB but the average person would not find that "point&click" nor "it's just not that hard". To the "average" person that looks like gibberish. That's why Mark_P is telling you that it doesn't look easy to him. It's really funny that you post it as an example of "how easy it is".

I think some of you CQC fans need to contain your excitement and give potential customers a little more realistic view of the work and time that is required to learn CQC. If you keep telling people how easy it is and then someone see screenshots like the ones above, then it puts your other comments into doubt as well. I think the truth is that CQC at this point is a power users product. And I don't think that's a bad thing.

Just to clarify, I DO think it is learnable by a determined individual that is PC savvy and willing to spend the time and the support group/community is obviously (according to all) excellent. What at first looks like gibberish becomes much easier to understand with some tutorials. I'm just trying to provide a balance here.

Just so nobody gets the wrong idea..smoothtlk and Mario don't pay me for talking bad about their product :rolleyes:

And Dean doesn't give me any sort of CQC freebies...if fact when I first started using CQC I hired Mark from CQC to write the Krell HTS driver and it cost $500...the same driver with the exact same command set cost $750 from Cinemar.

Mark also wrote me two free one-way drivers for the Krell KCT and DVD before I paid for the HTS driver..thats about all the freebies I ever got and I paid for the full package just like everybody else.

I make $0.00 from anything dealing with CQC and do it simply as a hobby..I'm far to busy with my real job...I have time to post only because I work from home, I don't sell systems to people or even sell graphics because I just don't have the spare time and I probably wouldn't make as much so why bother.

First time I tried CQC..used it a day or two and uninstalled and went back to MainLobby for about 4 more months..one day I seen some new interfaces someone did so I visited the forums and decided to give it and honest try.

The second time I downloaded IVB's templates for his system and swapped out his widgets with my graphics and one day later I was controlling my 1100 CDs and everything was looking how I wanted to control my music and with actual buttons I could make any size something I couldn't easily do with Musiclobby because they coded the interface in Flash and it was not customizable.

At the time Mainlobby ran slow with my collection size on a 3Ghz pc with 1GB ram..this was very apparent when switching to CQC and I never looked back since...perhaps the Musiclobby works smoother now but back then it choked or ran slow for me..and David doesn't pay me to say this. :rolleyes:


Anyways..I'll admit CQC is a different product and at first glance some might be intimidated but I can assure you it is alot easier to understand than it looks..I'm not a programmer or network engineer by any means I simply downloaded and configured it just like any other program or hardware and made it work and when I didn't understand I read the manual and asked questions when I was lost .

I didn't buy it and expect my system to magically configure itself and I sure the hell wasn't gonna pay someone to draw graphics for me and connect everything and really could care less about the language it was written in as long as it was stable.

I'm trying to build a stable control and automation system and could really care less about plugins for sprinklers and would rather have flamethrower cannons to melt the 3 feet of snow in my front yard tonight. :D

Is that part true about ML? I honestly don't know, which is why I ask. I know that one of the things i'm most relieved about with CQC is that I don't actually have to know any command syntax at all - it's all point&click, a la the following. This is how i'd either add a new command button or extend an existing command button.

I think that that was established a while back in this thread. Since ML uses Flash, it is using a third party tool to create user interfaces. That tool isn't integrated into the product and cannot provide access to that kind of automation system information. An ML user seemed to verify that you have to manually look up stuff and type the command information into the buttons as apposed to selecting from lists. In their rules engine stuff, that's their own interface, and you can do so.

Since CQC has its own interface system and editor, it can use the same interface for settting up actions everywhere, including in the user interface, and the interface widgets (being our widgets) can be targets of actions as well. These are among the advantages I pointed out in my earlier long post when someone asked what some of the advantages are.

This is the kind of thing I was talking about earlier, where higher levels of customization begins to cost more, and at the level of customization that a professional generally requires would very much outweigh something like a built in sprinkler system since it impinges on the core stuff that you would do a lot of of when you are building a customized automation solution.

In my opinion anyway.

I think that that was established a while back in this thread. Since ML uses Flash, it is using a third party tool to create user interfaces. That tool isn't integrated into the product and cannot provide access to that kind of automation system information. An ML user seemed to verify that you have to manually look up stuff and type the command information into the buttons as apposed to selecting from lists. In their rules engine stuff, that's their own interface, and you can do so.

Since CQC has its own interface system and editor, it can use the same interface for settting up actions everywhere, including in the user interface, and the interface widgets (being our widgets) can be targets of actions as well. These are among the advantages I pointed out in my earlier long post when someone asked what some of the advantages are.
I wrote a post earlier questioning how much of an advantage that is. But after thinking about it, I deleted it. I agree this is a huge plus. It's not that it makes CQC more powerful per se (and I'm not even talking about versus ML, just in general), rather that it allows for a much more direct programming approach. It should result in HUGE time savings and less programmer errors (errors that occur when a programmer has to move back and forth between a design program and a coding program) that have to be debugged. This is something that probably requires some experience having done this type of programming (whether with CQC, Crestron, AMX, ML etc.) to fully appreciate. I've done it both ways and would love to be able to always do it all from one view as long as I can use whatever graphics program I want to create the graphics (which CQC allows).

Well, to each his own. If you search on the Cinemar forums for my name, you'll see that I tried 3x to simply get DVDLobby to work. I tried for hours upon hours. I just couldn't get it to work.

What is intuitive to some is lunacy to others, and that's true for both products.Hmmm, I seem to have got DVDLobby up and running easier than WeatherLobby (lol) like I told someone today, I seem to glide right through the supposedly hard stuff and fight the little cheesy stuff like NetCallerId, this is why I am suprised I never really grasped CQC because I seriously do try and overthink everything and stretch it to the limit. Im going to have to keep buying new phone lines because I know Mario sees my number pop up on caller ID and thinks " Oh chit, here we go again, more insane requests that I have to explain the reason its ridiculous why anyone would want to do THAT"

Obviously something seemed to click with me lately because I am finding Cinemar very powerful, fast and simple, minus the occasional blip like a projectors press and hold IR command which is still bugging me since Digital Projections neglects to answer their phones to give a discreet on code. So far thats about it and this really has nothing to do with Cinemar and more to do with USB-UIRT and DP not having the smarts to allow you to turn on your PJ with a simple on command. I could go rs232 or LAN but why? On/OFF and thats pretty much it, I already have the Mercury dialed in everywhere else.

I just realized that I don't have even a trial version of ML, so I can't go in myself to see.

Can one of you guys post screenshots of how you'd add a new command button in ML, and how you'd set it up to do something? To keep it simple, you could do the same thing as above - show me how you'd add a button that not only did a single action, but ideally also has some if-then logic in it as well. That way I can get a good mental picture of how it works.Sure, apples to apple I guess, heres my entire Denon 5805 setup. I choose serial, comm7 and Im through and on to something else in 35 seconds including DLing the plugin and installing.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y280/GoBigRed/denoncopy.jpg

Now the Denon is setup and done, is it in CQC with one selection?

On the client side here is what the 3rd party guy who wrote this plugin includes to drop into Mainlobby and play with or move buttons to other pages, there were more buttons but I deleted a bunch since I knew I wouldnt need them otherwise this is what I got, if I click any button the Denon 5805 performs flawlessly. The next screen will show where I edit my buttons and such using the drop down you see at the top

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y280/GoBigRed/denon2.jpg

And heres the meat opened up, theres more if you want to be " flexible" and I do but everything here is already done, I didnt have to add or type anything, if I want to change a button I hit edit click the button I dont like, scroll through hundreds of different buttons if I so choose and click it, but this next screen is going to show you the real POWER behind Cinemar ( atleast a huge thing for me who wants nice looking interfaces with tints and easy to set up on and off states.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y280/GoBigRed/denon4.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y280/GoBigRed/denon2-1.jpg

I guess I will make this comparison to hopefully explain my point of view, when I tried CQC and watch others use it and look at your examples I feel like I am stuck back in 92 using Windows 3.1 and clunking around spending hours trying to figure out what the heck a srcinput field value if/else is.

when using Cinemar I feel like Im using Windows 98 on the verge of XP with XP results that I will be glad to show you when Im done but it will be in a video so you can grasp the power of "Flash". Honestly I wish someone had pointed me to the CQC premade scenes because I couldnt find them and editing yours would have taking me days to figure out.

When I read this thread the "Im a Mac & Im a PC" seems to linger in my mind and I will let you guess whos who

"I think that that was established a while back in this thread. Since ML uses Flash, it is using a third party tool to create user interfaces. That tool isn't integrated into the product and cannot provide access to that kind of automation system information. An ML user seemed to verify that you have to manually look up stuff and type the command information into the buttons as apposed to selecting from lists. In their rules engine stuff, that's their own interface, and you can do so. "

Dean, you apparantly have never used MainLobby.

I think that that was established a while back in this thread. Since ML uses Flash, it is using a third party tool to create user interfaces. That tool isn't integrated into the product and cannot provide access to that kind of automation system information. An ML user seemed to verify that you have to manually look up stuff and type the command information into the buttons as apposed to selecting from lists. In their rules engine stuff, that's their own interface, and you can do so.

Since CQC has its own interface system and editor, it can use the same interface for settting up actions everywhere, including in the user interface, and the interface widgets (being our widgets) can be targets of actions as well. These are among the advantages I pointed out in my earlier long post when someone asked what some of the advantages are.

This is the kind of thing I was talking about earlier, where higher levels of customization begins to cost more, and at the level of customization that a professional generally requires would very much outweigh something like a built in sprinkler system since it impinges on the core stuff that you would do a lot of of when you are building a customized automation solution.

In my opinion anyway.When I read this the first thing I think is, Does CQC include Photoshop CS2 suite ? Because to make a nice looking interface I think youre going to have to have it but I do understand what youre saying, to get full effect with Cinemar you need Flash if youre a Ripper or me for that matter.

I think the difference where you say you have to type in commands and yours are in a drop down is slightly misleading, in Cinemar the point is its already done, when you buy a plugin everything is already done and setup for you, if you want to change something its called Cut & Paste but I get what youre saying. Lets take DVDLobby for example, I DownLoad it and install it and heres how I add a movie I click the search Icon you see here and pick my movie from Changer or other places we wont discuss and in 10 seconds its done and on the client its all there with TheaterTek remote controls and everything

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y280/GoBigRed/dvdlobby.jpg

In CQC what plugin do you DL and how many button pushes does it take to get all the info, as you say everything is dropdown in CQC so theres no typing anything if I understand you correctly and can we see the client side with its remote that operates Theatertek would look like and is it pre-made for you? In other words with Cinemar it takes 1-4 hours to load the program and hundreds and hundreds of movies and your watching them on any client in the home. (the 4 hours is assigning the 200-500 movies the Cover art and all those goodies using whatever sweet thing Cinemar includes to do this)

Mark,
Since I'm none of the things you mention I can attest that it is possible for someone to setup CQC in fairly short order. I'm only doing straight theater type control, nothing fancy, but the only painful part was creating a driver that I needed. The rest of it was straight forward to set up the templates to run my system with a couple days effort. Again nothing fancy there but all of the required settings are automated to select any controlled device along with on/off etc. I wouldn't say that a completely non-technical person could get there but you don't need to be the ultimate computer geek either.What I am doing is what I would consider fairly complicated but the 2 hardest parts are done and were so easy to do I almost threw a party when done. What I discovered is if its got rs232 capability, its controllable even in different buildings hundreds of feet away without wires, when I attended the last CQC webmeeting ( those are very cool and I plan to attend them not being a CQC user just to see advancements and things they are doing) so I can keep in touch with other alternatives if I find Cinemar just cant do something I want to do. In the last meeting I was interested in Insteon mainly because thats the huge part of what I have. At that time, as I understood it, CQC was able to only poll 20 Insteon devices at a time and I have 200 devices when done. I was under the impression one guy (I feel for this guy) is writing the plugin and didnt plan on adding grouping of 200 devices with dim/ramp rates and informed me I would have to use 3rd party software and when I checked out the 3rd party software it looked sort of confusing and clunky too me. I also got the feeling since some people dont like Insteon CQC was taking the position that its crap so they arent going to jump in all guns blazing and I felt I would be a nusance bothering their plugin developer every 5 minutes trying to figure things out. Hopefully the guy has a life and from what I gather the Insteon stuff is a bear to program for and it can take 500 hours to get a plugin to perform without grouping dim/ramp rates.

I just feel awkward and out of touch with CQC and all that power, if they hid the power, put everything in plain english and had a server side editor and a client side editor I would have proceeded more. Maybe they do but as I watched people in action on it, it always seemed like drop down after drop down after different programs and different screens and different programs and my head was just spinning. If youre a Pro Automator, Im sure its probably easy to use and extremelly good stuff.

Just out of curiousity what would it have taken/cost to get 2 way serial control of a Theta Casablanca III/Dreadnaught I, Denon DVD-2900 and a Sony VPL-VW10HT going in ML? I'm assuming that the IR setup of the rest is similar in which the IR codes are learned if there aren't existing files.

On a separate issue. The one thing I don't understand is why anyone with either package would want to directly control sprinklers, HVAC, lighting etc. It is far more robust in my mind for the HA system to talk to the sprinkler controller, HVAC controller, lighting controller etc. That way if the PC crashes (not as common under XP but it still can happen) everything still works. The lawn is watered, the heat still comes on and the lights still work. Maybe inconvenient but not a crisis.

QQQ, I think you have the right approach to this entire discussion. You are starting to remind me of a debate moderator, which is a good thing. :)

Lets face it neither product is the end all be all in HA. There is no one solution that is perfect. Just pick one and leave it at that. You pick one and if it works out for you great, if not you pick another. That is the nature of software it isn't a one size fits all world. And yes I know that neither package is free and there will be a percentage that will end up buying both packages but that is just the nature of the beast. I see this kind of thing daily in my job, department X buys software package Y. Then a year later package Z comes out and they want it because they think it will be a better fit. The split is about 50% either way.

Where is Electronic House, Consumer Reports, CNet or ZD when we need them? :D
A couple of impartial independant reviews would do wonders. Sponsors, anyone want to review both products and let us know the findings?

While I'm sure many custom installers are like this, I sure wouldn't want one with this attitude working on my project. I want an installer who charges a fair price and included in that price is his time to make sure that everything is working properly and might even include a free follow-up visit a month or two later to fine-tune stuff after I've used it for a while.

I've had experience with contractors who have the attitude you stated above and those are the ones to stay away from.

Mike_WTheres a difference between a driveway asphalt rippoff artist and someone that comes to your site properly prepared to get 4 days work done in 4 days. No one is saying they dont want pro work, what I dont want is some automation installer charging me $100 an hour setting up things that should be setup with one plugin and a setting or two, I also want nice graphics on my interfaces and would like to have dozens of choices so hopefully an installer isnt at my house taking 2 hours to setup a weather page. Hopefully all my media stuff is done in a timely fashion as well. If I have a Denon 5805 I expect it will take him no more than 15 minutes to hook it up and have it running on the touchscreen because this is possible. I want complete lighting control in a 12 year old home and Im going to choke on my coffee when the installer tells me we have to use 100K worth of switches because we dont like the ones that cost 10K. Hopefully I can pull up a "watch movies section" and have hundreds of movies available and know he spent a couple hours doing this. While you guys have seen shoddy rushers, I have had more than my share of high priced milk it men that translate something being of higher quality because they stretched it out while explaining " this is an extra, thats an extra"

Most people dont want complexity, they want to control volume and turn their lights on and off. Ofcourse they want reliability as well but that doesnt translate to plodding along taking hours to set up something thats reliable and takes 5 minutes to setup.

Everybody has seen both ends of the spectrum here, I also dont want someone hanging around for weeks setting stuff up while no one is home, get in, get it done, get paid and thank you very much heres a bonus for being so efficient

If I have a Denon 5805 I expect it will take him no more than 15 minutes to hook it up and have it running on the touchscreen because this is possible.
I'm glad you don't expect anything too extreme :rolleyes: :).

On a separate issue. The one thing I don't understand is why anyone with either package would want to directly control sprinklers, HVAC, lighting etc. It is far more robust in my mind for the HA system to talk to the sprinkler controller, HVAC controller, lighting controller etc. That way if the PC crashes (not as common under XP but it still can happen) everything still works. The lawn is watered, the heat still comes on and the lights still work. Maybe inconvenient but not a crisis.

Most of these systems, hvac, lighting, etc allow you to override the controls from their control panels so even if the HA crashes you still have manual control. I can't think of any right now that don't allow for direct control but there may be a few out there. The HA system just moves alot of that control to a central location to make them easier to access and more user friendly. Sprinklers are the only one thta I am not sure of since I haven't looks at the controllers. I would assume though the internal timers still work if they are availble on the system.

Les,
MainLobby combo is $179.99
The Denon plugin is $39.99 EDIT: oops, I thought you meant Denon Reciever. Not sure on DVD player

The Theta plugin doesn't exist because it isn't in high demand (never have had a request or any discussion of the hardware). You could very likely use the MLGenericSerial to 2 way communicate, which is free. You could reuse one of the many scenes that exist to build the UI.
Yes, IR is supported. www.cinemaronline.com/hardware.irsolutions.html
Easiest means to get multizone IR control over your system. Ability to import IR codes or Learn them as well. Takes a couple of minutes to install and get going.

Dean, the drop down rules builder in MLServer is used to build the rules. From the client, the button just invokes that built rule. The user is free to also build a command in the MainLobby client designer, but that is optional. Again, multiple ways are supported. What you are focusing on is the worst possible way to use MainLobby (though it is possible to use it that way - but why would anyone?), which apparantly the information that is being spun into CQC and out. Your information is dated about two years.

LathanM, yes there are internal timers in most sprinkler controllers. Most limit the max time a relay can be engaged in case PC communication expires so the lawn doesn't get overwatered.

Can we remove Pro installers from the mix for a second. Time and design in the DIY world is a different matter. Having worked with a few and talked to several more, most have set packages and rules they use when designing a system. This allows them to quickly build systems from known working parts that they have tested before getting to the client site. So al large part of the install work is already done for them. Intergrating new gear or pieces the customer already has is an entirely different matter and is normally billed accordingly. It is then up to the customer to decide if they want to keep the old or add new equipment that the installer is still learning. It is like the last VPN I set up for a client. Before the project started I reviewed their configuration and equipment and told them beforehand that intergrating their Cisco equipment wouldn't be a problem but adding in the small offices behind Watchguard routers will take more time. I layed out 2 options one for upgrading and one for working with the Watchguards and let them choose.

When you are working with a good pro installer they will recommend things that they know will work, have tested or will (normally) tell you up front what you are in for. Time involved in making it work is part of buisness and depending on the installer they may or may not want to soend the time. I have a stack of routers, switches and other networking equipment here to play with and learn what works and doesn't. Most good installers do the same thing.

I'm glad you don't expect anything too extreme :rolleyes: :).
Well, seriously, If I as a complete no mind with automation can do it, surely a pro can. If I leave for 3 hours and come back and the guy is still playing around making an interface. Heck, I gave him 10 minutes to make sure all the button work ;)

I think you know what I meant, if one way takes 4 hours and the other takes 10 minutes and they both do the same thing is the 4 hour way better because its more complex? Is it more powerful and flexible?

Back to trying to find a discreet on code for a DP Mercury, uuuhhhhggg, Im going to have to charge myself $400 or get off my pooper and go 232 for an on switch

I took a quick look around earlier to see if I could find a discrete IR for the DPI stuff. I didn't find one but that doesn't mean they don't have one.

I took a quick look around earlier to see if I could find a discrete IR for the DPI stuff. I didn't find one but that doesn't mean they don't have one.
Interestingly the Mercurys inner guts that include this are actually made by NEC (GX5000) I have learned alot about DPI since looking for this code which doesnt exsist but they are confirming altering the hex code to lengthen the time its blasted, supposedly one of those 120 digits is the length of time the IR is sent but no one in this country knows which number it is and in England its Friday night and their guru is at the 10th anniversary Party ( probably heavely sedated with Guiness by now)

Lathan/David
Thanks. Nice to know I'm not the only one to look at it that way. I keep seeing people talking of controlling individual sprinklers, dampers, thermostats, light switches etc and couldn't imagine why. Let the individual controllers do what they do best and then let the HA system orchestrate the whole thing.

David,
If I had the time I might run the trial of ML just to see if the generic serial system would work. For as nice as the gear is Theta's serial protocol is a real kludge. Commands aren't bad but the replies are all dumped in a long string with everything sent without a end or start bit. All the reply bits are different so knowing where it begins and ends was a mess just to be able to pick the xth bit and display it as volume.

The Sony PJ is even worse. Command syntax changes with each one and if you ask for status before it's ready the whole thing croaks. Nice surreal light show but no picture. No idea what Sony did there but it's a pain.

Thanks for those screenshots, MarkP. A few followup questions:

1) Cut&Paste is fine if all you want to do is re-arrange an existing screen, but what if you want to design an entirely new one, where the current widgets don't exist? How is that done in ML?
2) Still not following why you think a basic interface takes 4 hours in CQC vs 10 minutes in ML. Could you explain that more?

IVB, As MarkP mentioned, if you don't like the look of the existing screen, you just go into Edit mode (1 button push), Click on the button (2), click on the Library button (3), Select a new button (4), Click Close (5), Click Design (6), Click and drag the button (7), Click Save (8), Click Launch (9) Done.

Ok the debate continues! Glad to see it in a positive form that provides quality information to those looking for it.

CQC folks keep speaking of how it is at a more "pro level" and that ML is ok until you try to get to the level of customization that CQC has. I still dont see why this is said. I thinks its fairly evident that both can achieve the same end result. The only difference is how it is handled on the back end of the software. CQC says there method is better than ML's but that does not make it more customizable or flexable.

I still have a question that was not answered. How does the secure method that CQC uses benefit me?

~ I dont think people are waiting outside waiting to hack into my system so they can turn my lights on and off.

~ CQC's system runs on windows it is just as vonerable as ML. Once I hack into windows, I can stop either system by closing it.

~ The only thing that needs to be secure is your personal information.

File sharing cant be so bad, most POS systems use it with MS access sharing a central database. Most major chain resteraunts use digital dining, posi touch or other similiar software. If they can trust it for buisness I think I can trust it for HA. I dont see on the news about people hacking into outbacks system and ordering several thousands in food and charging peoples credit cards. So the firewall must be doing its job.

I understand that answering what one can do over the other is hard but... I keep hearing "more flexable and customizable". I think people have a misconception on pre-built. The pre-builts are editable, if you dont like something remove or add to it with whatever you can think of. Or to go even more custom and you can make your own scene that pulls the same information as the pre-built ones. I would say that 95% of the info ML uses is global in the server. Meaning any client machine can access it.

Overall I guess that HA is just that. If it helps out our everyday lives and makes things easier than it did its job, but I dont want to spent countless hours tweaking my system. I want to enjoy using it.

IVB, sounds like you need to quit that stressful job and get into home automation or start a company hosting your webex meetings for other companies. Life is to short for a stressful job. It sounds like you really enjoy HA and helping others. By the sounds of it "it brings you to a happy place" Please don't take offense, I am just complimenting.

Interestingly the Mercurys inner guts that include this are actually made by NEC (GX5000) I have learned alot about DPI since looking for this code which doesnt exsist but they are confirming altering the hex code to lengthen the time its blasted, supposedly one of those 120 digits is the length of time the IR is sent but no one in this country knows which number it is and in England its Friday night and their guru is at the 10th anniversary Party ( probably heavely sedated with Guiness by now)
ESP cause I was just going to ask which model - as you know many of their models are OEM'd.

Side note: I am amazed that Theta is so unfriendly. They gear is wonderful to use and listen to. I guess they fell into the same trap of adding serial control as an afterthought. I wish one company would come out with a generic module that other companies could buy that handled this sort of thing. They exist for remote controls so why not for other things.

IVB, As MarkP mentioned, if you don't like the look of the existing screen, you just go into Edit mode (1 button push), Click on the button (2), click on the Library button (3), Select a new button (4), Click Close (5), Click Design (6), Click and drag the button (7), Click Save (8), Click Launch (9) Done.

Thanks for that. Hopefully you don't mind continuing the education process a bit more.

BTW, this is one more area where I got TOTALLY lost when I did my trial - I just couldn't figure out how to build or massively modify a screen. Don't get me wrong - I think DVDLobby is a very attractive package. But it evokes the same mental response as ripper's screens do - gorgeous, slick, professional, but very very sterile. Hence, I may not be your target audience as I want to start with a blank slate and build up - it's faster than taking an existing look and modifying the crap out of it.

Q1) How would you start from a blank screen and build up?
Q2) How would you add a new button or bit of fuctionality to a screen?
Q3) What if I wanted to embed logic inside it, how would I do that? My pause button goes out to determine which device is playing (SageTV vs TheaterTek vs 777. Only send the pause command to the device that's playing in that zone) It uses if-then-else logic in combination with variables to accomplish this.

Screenshots would be helpful, as i'm having a bit of a hard time mentally following what you're saying.

Thanks.

I am taking a page from the CQC book and putting together a couple kickstart movies. I should have one up by the end of the day that walks you through the basic interface and adding buttons. I will post a link when it is finished.

It's the latter that Vivek mentions above that I was talking about. If you have a button on an interface, and you need to embed some pretty fancy logic into it, to say power on the theater. How do you go about that?

I'm not talking about changingthe look of a button. And not pre-fab stuff that is more along the lines of 'this is a remote control for device X that's just on the screen', where you have one button that sends one pre-fab command. I'm talking about stuff like I'm doing in my system. I press one button and it powers on those devices that are required for the desired input source, and powers off the others, waits for things to power up, lowers the lights, etc...

What are the steps required to set up a button in ML to do that?

It's the latter that Vivek mentions above that I was talking about. If you have a button on an interface, and you need to embed some pretty fancy logic into it, to say power on the theater. How do you go about that?

I'm not talking about changingthe look of a button. And not pre-fab stuff that is more along the lines of 'this is a remote control for device X that's just on the screen', where you have one button that sends one pre-fab command. I'm talking about stuff like I'm doing in my system. I press one button and it powers on those devices that are required for the desired input source, and powers off the others, waits for things to power up, lowers the lights, etc...

What are the steps required to set up a button in ML to do that?

Yes, that would be very useful to know. At this point, I have almost no buttons in my system that just do a single thing. They all do multiple steps, and commonly have logic behind them.

LathanM - can you also add that to your video? If anyone wants to put some screenshots here, I wouldn't argue against that either.

File sharing cant be so bad, most POS systems use it with MS access sharing a central database. Most major chain resteraunts use digital dining, posi touch or other similiar software. If they can trust it for buisness I think I can trust it for HA. I dont see on the news about people hacking into outbacks system and ordering several thousands in food and charging peoples credit cards. So the firewall must be doing its job.

Well, for one I'd say that if you are paying multiple hundreds of dollars for a product whose architecture you feel the need to decscribe as "can't be that bad", that probably is an issue to begin with :-)

But seriously, it's not just about security. Go back and read my posts in this thread. I explained the benefits pretty well I think, and they are the same benefits that cause pretty much any serious multi-user product to be implemented as a client/server architecture. A POS application is pretty trivial compared to an automation system really, so I don't think it's a good example. An automation system is constantly active, with many things going on at once, and with background processes constantly accessing and modifying information in addition to potentially multiple users. You really want a system in which all that activity is managed carefully, and a client/server architecture provides that.

If you watch this video (http://www.charmedquark.com/Web2/Downloads/Video%20Tutorials/FAQ/MediaManagement/Media%20Management%20-%20Part%202.wmv), which demonstrates the creation of a basic interface to do media browsing and playback, I can't imagine that anyone would think that this is too complex to understand. I'm not trying to make it look super-fancy here, since the point is to demonstrate a specific thing, but making it look nicer is just an incremental step beyond what you see here.

I can't remember exactly, but I'm not sure I typed in anything at all during this. And it just ain't that technical or complex.

It's the latter that Vivek mentions above that I was talking about. If you have a button on an interface, and you need to embed some pretty fancy logic into it, to say power on the theater. How do you go about that?

I'm not talking about changingthe look of a button. And not pre-fab stuff that is more along the lines of 'this is a remote control for device X that's just on the screen', where you have one button that sends one pre-fab command. I'm talking about stuff like I'm doing in my system. I press one button and it powers on those devices that are required for the desired input source, and powers off the others, waits for things to power up, lowers the lights, etc...

What are the steps required to set up a button in ML to do that?I copy and paste the commands and do it differently than most but I press one button and everything turns on except the projector (either DPI or USB-UIRT or NEC or my lazinesses fault,I could run some CAT5 and be done but I already have an IR blaster there )

Consider this, everything you have already has a plugin and a button assigned so if you copy and paste that button into your MLServeCmd it will do that function, seperate by using pipes, tildas, whatever to serve the function you want. if you want pauses for 2 minutes add a 2 minute pause between some items, If I were a pro-installer I would sit down for how ever long and make a command sheet in Notepad and go that route.

Right now I have 152 Insteon lights that go on ramped and dimmed with one button, how is this done in CQC? With a drop down menu?

In my weather lobby I have the next 10 days, maps, windspeed, basically everything I need to know about the weather in Dallas Oregon, Suva Fiji, and Walla Walla WA. and accomplished this by adding 3 zipcodes, how is this accomplished in CQC? It took about 5 minutes to enter the zips and pick my maps I wanted displayed. We messed with this in CQC in a web meeting and after 30-45 minutes I had a cloud on a blank gray screen with the temprature

I am still waiting on a DVDLobby answer too, not sure what its called in CQC but it was something like media repository or something.

IVB you can start from scratch using a premade scene, I do it all the time. I know it sounds funny but in design mode things move fast and the buttons are already assigned, if you want a button to do something else just cut and paste what else you want it to do

Right now I have 152 Insteon lights that go on ramped and dimmed with one button, how is this done in CQC? With a drop down menu?
Yep.

Well, I can't speak to Insteon, but with zWave you drop-down/point&click to the "zwave.Command" command, then type in allon (or alloff). Damn, I guess you do have to type in 5 characters.
But, if you were using groups, that would be all point&click. you'd point&click to "zWave.GroupBedroom", then point&click to "True" (or "False").

IVB you can start from scratch using a premade scene, I do it all the time. I know it sounds funny but in design mode things move fast and the buttons are already assigned, if you want a button to do something else just cut and paste what else you want it to do

Like Dean said, anything can be done with any product. The question is how. I need to wait until LathanM's movie is done so I can see how you build something and put logic into it. I'm really not interesting in having button pollution, where I basically replicate a handheld remote onto a touchscreen. I want compound actions so my HA system is actually automating something.

I'm still not getting how cut&paste gets you that embedded logic - it's different for each person, no way can ML or CQC know what I want to do when I push the BRS.

I copy and paste the commands and do it differently than most but I press one button and everything turns on except the projector (either DPI or USB-UIRT or NEC or my lazinesses fault,I could run some CAT5 and be done but I already have an IR blaster there )

Consider this, everything you have already has a plugin and a button assigned so if you copy and paste that button into your MLServeCmd it will do that function, seperate by using pipes, tildas, whatever to serve the function you want. if you want pauses for 2 minutes add a 2 minute pause between some items, If I were a pro-installer I would sit down for how ever long and make a command sheet in Notepad and go that route.

But that's not 'logic', that's a sequence of commands. What if you wanted to check that the projector is already on and therefore not turn it on and not wait for it to power up, or to react to the currently selected source on the A/V reciever and set up the other devices to that source as the default when you power up. That sort of thing.

Here (http://www.charmedquark.com/Web2/Downloads/Video%20Tutorials/Quick%20Tutorial/Actions%20Part%201.wmv) is a video that demonstrates that simple type of 'action' as it is called in CQC, to just string together a sequence of device commands. Here again, I can't imagine anyone would see that as terribly complex, and it doesn't require any typing or cutting and pasting.

And another (http://www.charmedquark.com/Web2/Downloads/Video%20Tutorials/Quick%20Tutorial/Triggered%20Events.wmv) that sets up a triggered event. It uses the same interface for action configuration.

Right now I have 152 Insteon lights that go on ramped and dimmed with one button, how is this done in CQC? With a drop down menu?

Yes. Those lights would be in a group (or whatever that is called in Insteon-speak.) You would add a command to do a field write, select the insteon driver and the group field from a popup, and select True or False from a poup.

In my weather lobby I have the next 10 days, maps, windspeed, basically everything I need to know about the weather in Dallas Oregon, Suva Fiji, and Walla Walla WA. and accomplished this by adding 3 zipcodes, how is this accomplished in CQC? It took about 5 minutes to enter the zips and pick my maps I wanted displayed. We messed with this in CQC in a web meeting and after 30-45 minutes I had a cloud on a blank gray screen with the temprature

I'm not sure what went on, but it shouldn't take nearly that long.

The CQC driver only works with one zip code, because the WC agreement clearly states that you will never be polling data for more than one location at once. You could load three instances of the driver, and I'm sure that some folks do, but we limit the driver to one zip code in order to stick to the letter of the agreement.

Side note: I am amazed that Theta is so unfriendly. They gear is wonderful to use and listen to. I guess they fell into the same trap of adding serial control as an afterthought. I wish one company would come out with a generic module that other companies could buy that handled this sort of thing. They exist for remote controls so why not for other things.

Yep, me too. Rather a surprise when I got into it. You are likely correct. The CB I didn't have serial. Later versions did. Of course the protocol is different from CB II to III. Not sure how different but there are two different protocol documents. The Sony PJ was even worse.

This wasn't intended to be a trick question for anyone. The hardware mentioned was the equipment list when I was doing the ML vs CQC decision so the scenario is real. Three years back it wasn't at all apparent that ML could handle the need. IIRC, at the time ML used a Slink-E to add a couple serial ports through a plugin with fairly basic commands. At the same time CQC obviously could though it did hurt a bit.

But that's not 'logic', that's a sequence of commands. What if you wanted to check that the projector is already on and therefore not turn it on and not wait for it to power up, or to react to the currently selected source on the A/V reciever and set up the other devices to that source as the default when you power up. That sort of thing.Then I do what I did with my pool and run a wireless serial cable from the PJ ( in the PJs case I can run a wire, then use MLGeneric serial plugin which I call a friend and have him explain what commands I need to put where because Im a newbie and am more interested in getting stuff up and running but take the Denon for example, I have status on it, I know if its on and if I want to turn it off I do and the standby light turns a redish color, unless I want a seperperate light then I make one

but take the Denon for example, I have status on it, I know if its on and if I want to turn it off I do and the standby light turns a redish color, unless I want a seperperate light then I make one

I don't mean can you see a light on the screen, but how would you in the logic you are setting up for the button respond to the state of the Denon and do either X or Y based on that state?

Dean, a POS system has alot more info passing than an HA system. Sure an HA system Sends out commands that are complex but only for a second or two. For me I go to a screen when I want something to happen in the house. I dont sit in front of it all day long pressing buttons.

Take my old pizza shop for instance. We had 5 touch screen termianls. Three were used non stop from 9am to 12am 7 days a week. The fourth was constantly used by a delivery driver and the last was a spare for real busy days. These terminals ran on xp and had a single MS access database shared from the server. Each client pc was a front end fo the database.

So 3-4 people were constantly sharing the same database. Not just reading but writing to it as well. Things like entering customer information, taking orders/modifiying them, credit card transactions, and the delivery drivers terminal interacted with mapquest using the caller id info to get an address then gather a map and save it for future use. The local bar/resteraunt here has over 20 terminals going non stop.

I would say they are bit more intense with more traffic than an HA sytem.

You explained it but I dont get it. I have a feeling these two packages are alot more alike than everyone thinks. It appears the terms used by the two may be doing the same thing but sound different.


Cinemar folks, I wouldnt make it sound so easy. The buttons are very easy to add to the screen but getting it to do something takes a little more than point and click. You have to type out the command in either the client or in the server.

For CQC people the logic for a button comes from the command typed in the mlservecmd field. this can either be a name of a mapped command or a full command. When I say mapped, that means that you can create a complex command 1 line long or 1000 lines long and save it with a name like "massive command". Then any client can use the command by just putting"massive command" in the field of the button. These commands can be created in ms excel then imported in the server for global use. I make all commands, even one liners this way so they can be called from any client just by adding the name to a button.

LathenM, please show this functionality if you could since it is a global way of doing things.

You don't put the logic in the "button". the button just calls the rule on the Server. The Server has a drop down choice box of "what do you want to do under what conditions".
To add the button, click Library, find the button you want, click Add, go into Edit mode, type {{mynewrule}} and click OK. click Save. Click Launch. Now, when you click that button, whatever you defined in "mynewrule" gets executed. that could be Power on the Denon, Change it to Source 1, drop the Stewart screen, change the position to 2 (but only if 4:3 movie), etc.

http://www.cinemaronline.com/images/3_360.195.rules.jpg

Here (http://www.charmedquark.com/Web2/Downloads/Video%20Tutorials/Quick%20Tutorial/Actions%20Part%201.wmv) is a video that demonstrates that simple type of 'action' as it is called in CQC, to just string together a sequence of device commands. Here again, I can't imagine anyone would see that as terribly complex, and it doesn't require any typing or cutting and pasting.

And another (http://www.charmedquark.com/Web2/Downloads/Video%20Tutorials/Quick%20Tutorial/Triggered%20Events.wmv) that sets up a triggered event. It uses the same interface for action configuration.Nice video, I have mentioned to both camps to Camtasia some demos together and in our CQC meeting I asked if this was done and everyone said no, are you stashing these videos or by me/or someone else asking get this achieved?

And by the way I was confused as heck throughout the entire process but I can see how someone with a week or two might be able to pick things up but lordy you slammed through a couple menues so fast I didnt have time to read all the confusing words, phrases, syntax or what ever all that booleon stuff was.Its ok if you cant see how anyone would think its complex.

I will admit I always had the feeling I was following along and understanding to a degree but maybe you should have shown Part 1 as well. This is exactly what we need to help others understand the differences, was that so hard.

CQC looks pretty powerful and point and click, but it looks like plans to the spaceshuttle in the background and some of that lingo is way over my capabilities. I certainly need the stuff made for dummies with a phone call away solving what the dummy cant figure out.

That tutorial was outstanding, I have a dozen just like it but would be ashamed to have people see me doing such simple stuff

Anything that presents a status can be used as a variable. So in the projector example you would add an automation rule (logic) at the server that says check projector state if off then turn on. The button would call that rule and the server would send the appropriate command. I posted an example of an automation rule a few pages back. You could also do this all in the button itself but it is less portable because all the logic is specific to that button and scene.

Dean, a POS system has alot more info passing than an HA system. Sure an HA system Sends out commands that are complex but only for a second or two. For me I go to a screen when I want something to happen in the house. I dont sit in front of it all day long pressing buttons.

But a real automation system isn't just a passive thing that only does something when you are sitting in front of it. CQC is constantly active. The drivers are constantly talking to devices or internet based sources, and logging information if anything goes awry. Events are triggered and processed. The scheduled event server is invoking operations on it's own. The touch screens are still actively updating information whether you are there or not. And various services are regularly checking to see if configuration information has changed and if they need to update themselves, and they are keeping their contact information refreshed on the master server so that others can come find them when they need to. And this stuff is far more rapid and active than human driven POS activity.

So there's a lot more going on than you might think, and a client/server architecture helps insure that they don't step on each other's toes. When you start interacting with the system, then of course there's that much more going on.

For CQC people the logic for a button comes from the command typed in the mlservecmd field. this can either be a name of a mapped command or a full command. When I say mapped, that means that you can create a complex command 1 line long or 1000 lines long and save it with a name like "massive command". Then any client can use the command by just putting"massive command" in the field of the button.

For CQC, that kind of thing is done in a CML macro. We currently don't store any of the 'actions' globally. Those are associated with whatever they are configured into (interface widget, scheduled event, etc...) CML macros are inherently available anywhere and you can invoke them from actions. We'll probably add global actions at some point as well, for folks who don't want to write any CML.

These commands can be created in ms excel then imported in the server for global use. I make all commands, even one liners this way so they can be called from any client just by adding the name to a button.

But can you add logic? And if so, how do you test that logic if you are writing them in excel?

yes, just as lathanm said, and same as my post two up that I was typing while Lathnam posted :)

Dean, yes, same in mainlobby. Again, all of your information on MainLobby is old and outdated.

Dean, a POS system has alot more info passing than an HA system.
Contraire my friend, it's not even close. You're assuming someone has to be pressing a button. That's the least of it.

Oops, I see Dean beat me to it.

Dean, MarkP's example could be accomplished several ways.

The button knows the status based on a global variable in the server. It might be:
receiver on=ON or OFF

So say you have a button that turns on a receiver. The buton when pressed can either send a command or call a command map from the server. (Both do the same thing) It can change colors to show status by placing the variable in the label field of the button {{receiver on}}. It will can also display the varaiable value ON or OFF if you have the setting checked.

The command run from the button can do other things in a couple of ways.

1 Without doing anything in the user interface you could just add a rule to server. the rule would look at the variable "receiver on" if it is equal to "on" do nothing. If it is equal to "off", then check to see if it is dark outside, if it is, turn on the theater lights, if it is not, shut the curtains then dim the lights.

2 call a command map. The map is a global macro command that tells the receiver to turn on, then runs a conditional command to see if the variable receiver on = on, if it is equal to "on" do nothing. If it is equal to "off", then check to see if it is dark outside, if it is, turn on the theater lights, if it is not, shut the curtains then dim the lights.

3 run the command directly from the button itself. The command would look exactly like number 2 except it only runs from that button.



Agreed that alot is going on the backend. I wasnt thinking of that part.

And by the way I was confused as heck throughout the entire process but I can see how someone with a week or two might be able to pick things up but lordy you slammed through a couple menues so fast I didnt have time to read all the confusing words, phrases, syntax or what ever all that booleon stuff was.Its ok if you cant see how anyone would think its complex.

The media one was a later video in the series, and assumed that you had already gone through the previous ones where those things were discussed in more detail. I wasn't showing you that video to teach you how it works, but to show you how point and click the process is.

Anything that presents a status can be used as a variable. So in the projector example you would add an automation rule (logic) at the server that says check projector state if off then turn on. The button would call that rule and the server would send the appropriate command. I posted an example of an automation rule a few pages back. You could also do this all in the button itself but it is less portable because all the logic is specific to that button and scene.

That's not quite the same really. Your logic needs to know if the projector is on or off because you are going to react to it. For instance, if you want to change the status of interface elements based on that status, you will have to react to that status locally within the interface itself. For instance, in CQC, often visual elements are not drive by device status but by the logic of the interface widgets themselves, and that is often driven indirectly by device status. So you really need to have logic capabilities in the actual client side stuff as well.

And I don't really think you would want to have to implement every piece of conditional logic globally and keep up with what is what. In many cases you want the logic to be contained to the button or whatever else kicks it off because the logic really is specific to that thing. You might have a number of simple variations of such things that you would do in various places on an interface and having to set them all up as global things would be pretty painful.

Having global ones is good, don't get me wrong, but it's not really an answer for what I'm asking about.

yes, just as lathanm said, and same as my post two up that I was typing while Lathnam posted

Dean, yes, same in mainlobby. Again, all of your information on MainLobby is old and outdated.

I don't think it's really the same. Having to set up all logic as global operations that you invoke from a client wouldn't be practical IMO. There could be hundreds of them in a large system, and many of them would be trivial and should be just done in the invoking entity.

3 run the command directly from the button itself. The command would look exactly like number 2 except it only runs from that button.

OK, well that implies the button itself can have logic, which doesn't sound like what was said above. If it can, how do you configure that logic in the button, relative to the examples in the CQC videos above?

Dean, thats the beauty of global stuff. You enter the info one time. Then everything eles can access the same info at the same time. All clients see the same thing.


Again, when each group uses a term it means something different.

A plugin within mainlobby not only controls the device but may also check its status. Then based on the status it automatically creates/updates variables for global use with no user interaction. So if I send a "on" command, the plugin sees the status change and automatically updates the on/off varaible.

Dean, it gets entered into the mlservecmd field of the button. This is done manually and is why I said it isnt so point and click.


That is the other beauty. You can make most things global to be used by all or for little stuff do it direct from the client.

IVB, As MarkP mentioned, if you don't like the look of the existing screen, you just go into Edit mode (1 button push), Click on the button (2), click on the Library button (3), Select a new button (4), Click Close (5), Click Design (6), Click and drag the button (7), Click Save (8), Click Launch (9) Done.


Okay lets assume I have 15 buttons on the screen and need to move them all lets say 20 pixels to the right..can I make a bounding box around them like I normally do when selecting multiple objects in windows and then just click and drag and place them 20 pixels to the right? Okay so I dont like where I just positioned those 15 buttons can I easily make a bounding box around them and move them up 6 pixels and to the right 4 pixels or do I need to move them all individually?

How about if I have 26 letters for the alphabet I need to put on the screen and would like to test the spacing between them all..first I want to try to arrange them left to right all in one row with the exact same space between each..can I do this easily?

Lets go one step further and put them in two rows of 13 for a smaller screen size...can I just grab 13 buttons and drag them below the first row and then individually align and space each set of 13 buttons?

If I need to nudge graphics in pixels increments up/down/right/left can I do this easily or must I use X/Y coordinates?


We all have things we need to be able to do and while these features might mean nothing to some users they were VERY important to me after using common graphics tools for years with the same features...while I used Mainlobby none of this was possible so if I had a keypad from one template and wanted to copy/paste to another I could do that but after that every single button had to be moved individually..I couldn't highlight a group of buttons and move them all at once..even windows 3.1 could do stuff like that without asking for x/y coordinates.

**I'm not sure the MLGenericSerial you mention David is the same one you had last year...I recall the one you had was a POS with no support whatsoever..from what I recall the guy who made it got in a fight with Mario or something and disappeared so it had no support at all...you can search the forums and probably find posts of me asking for help with it and was pretty well ignored.

Perhaps you have a new one but the one last year was not viable to write the driver for something like the Krell HTS at the time and Bob who works for you confirmed this and had to custom write the driver for me...a friend was wiling to write it for me but when I told him he needed to sign a NDA he sorta laughed and didn't seem interested so I hired you guys and you made the driver for $750 and it took about 2 weeks.

I'd be surprised to know at this very moment you have a new MLGenericSerial driver or whatever you call it and its 100% free and can be downloaded and any user can easily write two-way plugins..if this was the case you would think you guys would have hundreds of two-way device drivers created by users if it was that simple :-)

I am not following you on this one. The buttons in ML are just that buttons. They send a command when pressed and/or respond to events when variables change at the server. What more do they need to do?

What is the difference between storing the logic at the button or on the server? Just because they are stored globally doesn't mean they are called globally.

ripper,
no on the bounding box, but you can hit shift then select all then move everything togeather.

not sure what you mean by 26 letters and the spacing.

yes, you could grab just 13 and move them. then deselect all and move them individually.

Yes, you can move buttons or groups of buttons one pixel ata time. just use the up, down, left, and right arrow key.

The xy positioning is great if I am trying to line up several buttons I can just drag them close to where I want then use the arrow keys to move in one pixel increments. Or just make sure all have the same x cordinate and they line up.

I am not following you on this one. The buttons in ML are just that buttons. They send a command when pressed and/or respond to events when variables change at the server. What more do they need to do?

What is the difference between storing the logic at the button or on the server? Just because they are stored globally doesn't mean they are called globally.

Well, one issue was that as a practical matter, you could have hundreds of simple logic operations, many of which would only be used by a single button. Having to have the logic separated from the button in that case would be very impractical in a large system.

The other is what if you want to interact with the actual interface itself? That requires that the logic also include the interface elements, not just status of devices or things stored in the server.

Here is a for instance... In my user interfaces, I have a button to browse music or to browse movies. But I only have one 'Now Playing' button. That button looks at the status of a device (the active source on the A/V processor) and the loads one or the other overlay and upates an image at the top of the screen that reflects the currently active overlay (a speaker for music or a folder of film for movies.) So I don't need multiple buttons because the logic both deals with device status and interacts with interface elements.

My main interface with movie browsing overlay loaded (http://www.charmedquark.com/Web2/Downloads/MiscImages/V17Previews/DeansV2Intfs/Overlay_BrowseMedia.jpg)

Actually, it does more than that. It will check the A/V processor, and based on whether it is set set up for music or movie, it will then check the status of the appropriate player. It only loads the Now Playing if something of that type is actually playing. But the important thing is that the action understands the system in which it is running (because it's not just a global thing) and can provide point and click configuration and can interact with the interface elements themselves.


// See if we are on DVD source in the audio processor
If System::Equals($(HTAudioProc.InputSrc), DVD)
// Make sure the changer manager has a valid cookie
LocalVars::SetVariable(LVar:Cookie, $(ChangerMgr.CurColCookie))
LocalVars::GetLength(LVar:Cookie, LVar:CookieLen)
If Not System::Equals(%(LVar:CookieLen), 0)
CurOverlayImg::Set Image(\User\Blue\Icons\Movies)
Main Overlay::Load Overlay(BlueFantasy_CurMovie)
End
Else
// No, see if we are on CD
If System::Equals($(HTAudioProc.InputSrc), CD)
// Make sure that Zoom is running
If Devices::DriverIsReady(MediaPlayer)
CurOverlayImg::Set Image(\User\Blue\Icons\Audio)
Main Overlay::Load Overlay(BlueFantasy_CurMusic)
End
End
End



Here is a more extensive example. Here I implement, purely in terms of the CQC interface system, a login screen to password protect an interface. The same can be done to implement security system logins and so forth. It's all point and click stuff.

Password Protect Video (http://www.charmedquark.com/Web2/Downloads/Video%20Tutorials/FAQ/Miscellaneous/Protected%20Template%20Access.wmv)

So you can do this kind of fancy local interface logic and build these types of interactive screens that completely fit within the look and feel of your overall user interface system.

In my weather lobby I have the next 10 days, maps, windspeed, basically everything I need to know about the weather in Dallas Oregon, Suva Fiji, and Walla Walla WA. and accomplished this by adding 3 zipcodes, how is this accomplished in CQC? It took about 5 minutes to enter the zips and pick my maps I wanted displayed. We messed with this in CQC in a web meeting and after 30-45 minutes I had a cloud on a blank gray screen with the temprature


Actually the weather in CQC is for one location as per the user agreement with the source of the data..I'm not sure you know this but I'm pretty sure Cinemar is still scraping weather data from Yahoo and I won't even debate the legality of them doing this and then selling a commercial product based on data they are scraping from Yahoo.

The XM radio plugin also works the same way...it queries XMRO servers and scrapes the data from an .xml file and relays it to the MLServer which of course is not approved by XM Radio...for the fancy coverart you see displayed it doesn't magically come from a Cinemar database but actually if you watch the traffic going in and out of your clients you'll probably see it hitting akamai servers a thousand times a day.

My guess is cover art for the XMlobby plugin is being STILL downloaded from Amazon by their driver visiting the site and submitting the artist name and extracted coverart...I won't call it illegal but I can assure you Amazon would NEVER allow any company to just query their data thousands of times per day and download it and have that other company resell it in a commercial product.

**It will be interesting to see how easy you do weather or how many locations you could have shown should Yahoo all of a sudden take action against Cinemar for using their data in a commercial product and reselling it.

BTW does the DVDlobby plugin still have the problem when it automatically queries you disc and the coverarts it downloads have copyright stuff watermarks on some of them? Perhaps someone is hinting that THEY own the rights to that DVD coverart?

Its all nice and pretty when things just work and magically populate data but its quite another when you realize how the data is being gathered and if its being done legally and WHEN your fancy plugin could break because someone violates a TOS or infringes on copyright.

I'm pretty sure nobody from Cinemar will comment about all this or where they scrape their data from or the legality of such or the possibility said plugins could die at any moment :-)

thartigh, a lot of those things that Ripper speaks about were ML2 things that were addressed in Mainlobby 3 releases that I don't believe he has tried. I am not going to read carefully into all of what he wrote, because it is an exhausting argument that has gone on now for gotta be over a year now around and around again.

But thanx for your attempt at clarity.

Oy, I go away for a few hours on my stressful job (which I still like, LathanM :) ), and you're all so deep in it! I am so lost on that logic stuff it's not funny.

With CQC, you can have either:
1) Global rules, aka triggered events, that are centrally stored and accessible by any template.
2) Button-level logic that's bound to a given template. Please note that I didn't say "client", because all clients in CQC access the sample template through the magic of client/server.

It would royally SUCK if I had to stick with #1 for every dang thing, as I'd have dozens upon dozens of rules. Why bother stashing all my CD button logic, DVD button logic, etc, or if you prefer zone-based, then my LivRoom logic/FamRm logic, all in a central place? I'd want them in the same location as my buttons, that is inside my template, so I can keep related items together.

The option of having both is why I say that CQC is a true client/server architecture in the strict interpretation of the words, where a machine can either be a "client" or a "server" based on what it wants to do. In #1, it's a dumb-terminal letting the server run it all. In #2, it's a distributed control mechanism where either the "client" or the server does the work, based on how you set it up.

I keep hearing about how ML is a real client/server app, but that logic sounds like dumb-terminal to me. What types of logic or processing is possible on the client side inside your template?

Can someone please help enlighten the stressed out but dumbfounded one?

oh, btw, david/mario - how would you feel about sending me a trial dl of ML3/DVDL/CDL/WL? If things are so different, I don't want to mislead folks by bad data. I have some downtime coming up in a few weeks, I could play around with it then. It would strictly be on a standalone laptop, no hardware connected, but I wouldn't see why I need hardware to understand CD/DVD/Weather/rules...

Email is the same as the one in my Cinemar profile (i think - hasn't changed in years).

(no, i'm not switching, don't anyone flip out, I just don't feel comfortable in my current position of ignorance about *Lobby V3 given all the claims that the world is different now)

IVB, you don't have to worry about it. it just works :) Relax, think happy thoughts.. go to another place at another time.... :)

You can have commands and if/ then logic in a client stored command (not recommended, but sometimes for easy stuff, this is easier), or, you can have commands kept in command maps and within the rules engine (server side). for that matter, you can also have multiple servers, with multiple command maps and rules engines (no much need for this, but it is possible).

what is the "magic" of client / server? Mainlobby is a client / server application as well.

for applications that deal with media and PC hardware, the client is very important to connect to "stuff" locally. That can either be an "agent" like our MLWMI plugin is (runs on each client, or on the server) and the Mainlobby client so we can do things like streaming video and directX connection to local hardware. but at the end of the day, it just works.. it's not completely different than CQC, but different names for things but they all have to follow security and facts of PC and networking technology that they both are based on.

ripper,
no on the bounding box, but you can hit shift then select all then move everything togeather.

Yeah I guess that works fine to move *everything* on the screen

not sure what you mean by 26 letters and the spacing.

26 individual images...I would like to put the first image on the left side of the screen and the last image on the right and align them all and have the spacing equal between them all

yes, you could grab just 13 and move them. then deselect all and move them individually.

So I am assuming if I have 52 buttons I need to ctrl+click until I have 52 buttons selected and then I can move them...if I do 40 and accidently click the screen I have to start over correct? This is what I mean by having the ability to use bounding boxs for m,ultiple selections..we all know ctrl+clicking massive amounts of things is a pita

Yes, you can move buttons or groups of buttons one pixel ata time. just use the up, down, left, and right arrow key.

I do not recall this being possible when I used the product but I guess this takes us back to the ctrl+click thing and having to select all the buttons to move and then if you change you mind 5 minutes later the same must be done...I am aware shift+A can select all but if you have 75 buttons and only want to move 52 or something I think you would get the idea of whata pita this would be having to control+click a group of buttons that large repeatedly if you tweaking a layout and aligning things.

The xy positioning is great if I am trying to line up several buttons I can just drag them close to where I want then use the arrow keys to move in one pixel increments. Or just make sure all have the same x cordinate and they line up.

X/Y coordinates reminds me of the 80's :o ...while the X coordinate will align on one plane and the Y on another its still a real pain to set equal spacing between many buttons unless Cinemar has now fixed this problem? If you buttons are all aligned on the X plane thats all fine but how do you calculate the spacing from one point to another...do you look at the Y position between the first and second button and realize it 19 pixels and then to adjust the other buttons you need to make sure the Y changes 19 pixels for every button after that on the same plane...surely someone understands this madness :-)

thartigh, a lot of those things that Ripper speaks about were ML2 things that were addressed in Mainlobby 3 releases that I don't believe he has tried. I am not going to read carefully into all of what he wrote, because it is an exhausting argument that has gone on now for gotta be over a year now around and around again.

But thanx for your attempt at clarity.

So between ML2 and ML3 the screen scraping methods have changed?

I'm pretty sure *many* of the things I mention were not addressed in ML3 David..thats why I am asking but many times you seem to avoid answering so I ask again....

You can have commands and if/ then logic in a client stored command (not recommended, but sometimes for easy stuff, this is easier), or, you can have commands kept in command maps and within the rules engine (server side). for that matter, you can also have multiple servers, with multiple command maps and rules engines (no much need for this, but it is possible).

Why would you not recommend storing an 'if X load interface Y else load interface X' stored in the actual interface that is invoking it? Or is that you cannot actually store any such logic in the Flash interface itself and therefore they must be stored externally? Therefore locally stored means only available on that one client?. Maybe that's the difference.

For us, since it's our own data, we can store the commands directly in the interface widget that invokes it, so it's not like the command is stored locally or globally in that case. It's in the actual interface file itself and comes along with it. So when you load the interface to any client, any embedded logic is actually in the interface itself and there's no issue with where it is stored.

Anyway, please explain what 'locally stored command' means in ML.

Actually the weather in CQC is for one location as per the user agreement with the source of the data..I'm not sure you know this but I'm pretty sure Cinemar is still scraping weather data from Yahoo and I won't even debate the legality of them doing this and then selling a commercial product based on data they are scraping from Yahoo.

The XM radio plugin also works the same way...it queries XMRO servers and scrapes the data from an .xml file and relays it to the MLServer which of course is not approved by XM Radio...for the fancy coverart you see displayed it doesn't magically come from a Cinemar database but actually if you watch the traffic going in and out of your clients you'll probably see it hitting akamai servers a thousand times a day.

My guess is cover art for the XMlobby plugin is being STILL downloaded from Amazon by their driver visiting the site and submitting the artist name and extracted coverart...I won't call it illegal but I can assure you Amazon would NEVER allow any company to just query their data thousands of times per day and download it and have that other company resell it in a commercial product.

**It will be interesting to see how easy you do weather or how many locations you could have shown should Yahoo all of a sudden take action against Cinemar for using their data in a commercial product and reselling it.

BTW does the DVDlobby plugin still have the problem when it automatically queries you disc and the coverarts it downloads have copyright stuff watermarks on some of them? Perhaps someone is hinting that THEY own the rights to that DVD coverart?

Its all nice and pretty when things just work and magically populate data but its quite another when you realize how the data is being gathered and if its being done legally and WHEN your fancy plugin could break because someone violates a TOS or infringes on copyright.

I'm pretty sure nobody from Cinemar will comment about all this or where they scrape their data from or the legality of such or the possibility said plugins could die at any moment :-)Ummm Im not sure about all that but Im pretty sure they ripoff weather.com just like CQC does, the only difference was I didnt have to do anything in weatherlobby but in CQC we fought for 40 minutes trying to log in with fake emails and such, still not sure what all that was about but it was hokie

Im pretty sure my cover art isnt comming from amazon because their cover art looks like dog balls and has crap all over it, this stuff is clean and has spectacular resolution and info, unlike Amazon and Meedio crap. Hopefully someone can clear this all up. Where does CQCs auto coverart come from?

Ummm Im not sure about all that but Im pretty sure they ripoff weather.com just like CQC does, the only difference was I didnt have to do anything in weatherlobby but in CQC we fought for 40 minutes trying to log in with fake emails and such, still not sure what all that was about but it was hokie

You weren't trying to log in with fake e-mails. Here again, I think that Cinemar is not following the license agreement. If they ship the system with a pre-fab access key, instead of making you get one, then they are required to meet certain interface requirements (regarding logos) that I doubt that they meet, as we cannot (not to mention they aren't supposed to access more than one location at a time.) Therefore, since we cannot meet those interface requirements (because you create the interfaces however you want), we don't provide you with a Charmed Quark access key, we just let you get your own and then it's between you and WC as to how you build your weather interfaces.

The WC requires that they have a WC logo on their interface, but given that you can remove it any time you want, they are not meeting the requirements and could have their key yanked. We asked about this and was told that our type of application wouldn't pass muster because we cannot guarantee the WC logo on the screen.

The cover art for music comes from Windows Media Player/Microsoft as does the metadata (who in turn get it from AMG.) For movie arte we go to Google Images. The movie metdata comes also from AMG by way of WMP/MS.

FYI: I am going to have to postpone the videos for awhile. Real life is calling. Just once I would like to have a snowstorm not take down 4 clients at once. Did I mention how much I looove waiting around for SBC/Ameritech or whoever they are calling themseves this month. :rolleyes:

Dean, if you press a button from a client the server knows what client sent the command. Therefore you can use the clientname variable to display or not display certain things. You can acheive the same thing you are with the above method.


So you mean that every scene has to be configured with CQC? like if I send a command to control theatertek in room1 I have to specifically program each buton to do that?
With ML you can just have one set of global commands. Then based on any variable or clientname direct the command to client.

Read carefully everything cinemar people have posted. With variables you can do anything you can think of there is no limit.


IVB, Do you store a copy of every song you own on every client pc or do you have them stored in one location? Same theory. I think you are very confused about how cinemar works.

Ripper, if the info comes from yahoo then why is everything coming from weather.com along with there logo?

As per the licensing thing with one zip code... Thats the beauty of variables. The plugin has a variable that tells it where to look for weather info. So if you have a button for a favorite city say chicago. When pressed it changes the zipcode variable then the weather plugin updates all of its variable automatically.

or

you can have a scene that has numbers like a calculator. When pressed it adds to a varaible mlweather_enterzipcode=XXXXX so you can manually enter the zipcode of choice by typing it in. once entered all of the variable change (about 150-200) to the selected zipcode.

Isnt that only using one zipcode at a time? Plus two scenes can handle that for all clients and any client can view any zipcode in the world from a button push.

You really should get your info straight before implying they are infringing on license agreements. Give it a rest dude!

So you mean that every scene has to be configured with CQC? like if I send a command to control theatertek in room1 I have to specifically program each buton to do that?

No. The button in the interface would contain the actual command and it would be in the interface itself. Anywhere you run that interface it would come down with the interface itself. The Play button on that interface would just have a trivial one line command to send the play command to TheaterTek.

So the difference is storing things that are specific to the interface in the interface vs. storing them externally in some global location. Though the latter has it's uses (and CQC can do that with CML macros), it would be very impractical on a large scale to do every little conditional that a button might want to invoke as a globally stored thing.

The example I gave above where I put the command into the interface to load this or that interface is something that is only used there by that one button. Having to keep it externally and remember what commands do what would not be very user friendly to me.

As per the licensing thing with one zip code... Thats the beauty of variables. The plugin has a variable that tells it where to look for weather info. So if you have a button for a favorite city say chicago. When pressed it changes the zipcode variable then the weather plugin updates all of its variable automatically.

But that doesn't work if you have more than one interface in the home. If I'm looking at the weather, and you change it from another machine, then you just changed what I'm looking at.

It would only work if you do the data access from teh client itself, which would not pass muster because you could be looking at multiple zips at once.

Ripper,

yes you would have to select each individually and it is a little bit of a pain.

Xy cords are fully to date and used everyday by engineers and designers. Heck, all cad programs reuquire it. Its the only way to define an object in space. But I agree that selecting a group of buttons and tellings it to space equally is very nice.

If you are laying out a screen assume you woud have an idea on paper before you start. Each button needs to be edited either way so when you add the button you plug in the cord directly. So if adding multiple buttons I could place one and remember the cord. x=25,y=30. then for each added button you can set the x to 35 and the y to 30.

This would give you a button spaced 10 pixels apart in the X and aligned in the Y.

Dean,

You know your stuff but you are incorrect on this one. Youy are making a mountain out of a molehill. Well, actually it's bigger than a mole hill but not nearly a mountain. Both Crestron and AMX have a GUI design tool that is separate from the programming tool. There is no logic at all on the button (or very little depending on how you want to look at it). It's a very simple matter. Every button has an identification number. Crestron calls it a "join #' and AMX calls it a "channel #". So you have your programming code that you want the button to invoke. So you give the button and the code sequence the same number. THAT'S ALL there is to do! Let's suppose I have a command that I want to be able to invoke from every page. I write the code and part of that code is "trigger when button xxx is pressed". The button # xxx invokes the code. So I put button # xxx on every page. (and I could also trigger the invoking of the same code based on logic, time of day, whatever).

Now, I like your way of doing things better because it makes it a little bit easier on me as a programmer. But it's no more powerful, it just allows me to work a little faster and probably make few less mistakes (because I don't have to make sure my button numbers match the code number) so I have to debug less.

If you are laying out a screen assume you woud have an idea on paper before you start.

I would definitely disagree with that. Using the CQC Interface Editor is more like using Illustrator or whatnot. I do the design and layout directly in the editor because it makes it easy to do, and allows you to make changes easily on the fly and align things and move things and so forth.

I will generally have an idea for a particular overally kind of look before I start, techy, soft, very glossy, very minimalistic, but that's about it. I just pay with things in the editor and find something that appeals and then go with that.

Dean, yes you are right. If I want what you describe I can transfer the variables to client specific ones. Then each pc is viewing its own zip code.

works either way.

I am not following you on this one. The buttons in ML are just that buttons. They send a command when pressed and/or respond to events when variables change at the server. What more do they need to do?

What is the difference between storing the logic at the button or on the server? Just because they are stored globally doesn't mean they are called globally.
Exactly Lathan, as noted in my last post there is no difference.

Dean, yes you are right. If I want what you describe I can transfer the variables to client specific ones. Then each pc is viewing its own zip code.

works either way.

But I don't think it's allowed under the license. We at least try to enforce the license rules, though we cannot completely since people can load multiple driver instances. And I think that they are clearly playing loose by providing a company access key and not strictly enforcing the logo requirements.

Same theory. I think you are very confused about how cinemar works.

Boy, i'll agree with that.

Let me try something simple, then move on to the advanced stuff.

Let's say I'm listening to XM, but I want to change a CD. First, I press the blue source on the left for that zone.

http://www.myhometheaterpc.com/screenshots/VS20/overlay_xm.jpg

now, this screen comes up.

http://www.myhometheaterpc.com/screenshots/VS20/popup_roomchoice.jpg

Once I select CD, it automatically sets the source to CD and loads the CD interface.

All that logic is stored in the button, b/c that's where it makes sense to store it. Sure, I could put it on the server. Hell, I could put it in a text file sitting up on the web too, but that's not the point - the button is a self-contained unit.

I suppose if I wanted to, I could also put this in the triggered events manager, and kick it off that way. CQC can do that too. But I still feel like I'd be "polluting" my events/rules manager with stuff that is inappropriate, and increasing the complexity of the rules administration far beyond what is needed.

If all you do is some simple rules stuff, then I suppose you wouldn't be overly worried about piling on in your rules manager. But I've personally got some pretty serious stuff in there, and I want to keep it as orderly as possible. Using it to have rules for screen transitions, while entirely possible and stable, would add unecessary complexity.

Now, I like your way of doing things better because it makes it a little bit easier on me as a programmer. But it's no more powerful, it just allows me to work a little faster and probably make few less mistakes (because I don't have to make sure my button numbers match the code number) so I have to debug less.

As I just posted above, the question to me is less of "power" - hell, I could use duct tape and scissors and it would work.

The question is more one of "put stuff where it belongs", so the overall complexity and hence brittleness of a system is reduced. Although in CQC you can certainly do things the ML/AMX/Crestron way of centralizing all logic, why in gods name would you put ALL logic there, esp that which would never actually be used by any other template?

Like I just posted, it just seems silly to put logic that would never be shared by other templates into a central location where it'll just make things messier. Keep it where it belongs, and reduce the complexity of your central repo to just that which should be shared.

If I were to install a clients system ml would be easier and take a quater the time. I can make one gui and one set of commands. All are sent where they need to go by a simple client varaibale.

In the end I have less work and one easy set of command to manage. Once finished you copy them out to all client pc's via a batch file (from a button if you want)

The customer sees the same end result and spends less money and I have more time to spend on that customer and others that want to add to there system.

IVB,

Sorry, but you just aren't getting it. It's a "pointer", that's all it is. In Dean's system the button points directly to the code so to speak. In ML's system the button points to a button that IS the code. You are creating an issue in your mind about "button logic" versus "server logic" that is making this much more complex and a much bigger issue than it is.

You really should get your info straight before implying they are infringing on license agreements. Give it a rest dude!

Perhaps maybe David should comment on where the weather data comes from and how they are able to allow you to query weather from multiple zip codes without violating TOS.

Or maybe you should visit this page http://weather.yahoo.com/

Notice the weather channel logo? Notice the zip code entry box?

Perhaps David or Mario can confirm if I am wrong in saying their weather plugin when I used it visited Yahoo weather and sent a http request to the zip code form and then waited for the reply and scraped the data? perhaps my info is straight and I do know what I'm talking about...lets see how David or Mario explain this if they even will..perhaps they have changed things but I have a very good feeling things work the same as they always have :-)

As for what I said about XM Radio..David or Mario will confirm 100% when using the *online* option in the plugin that indeed their plugin is accessing a XMRO server, why do you think you need to enter your username/password in the plugin..obviously so it can query XMRO and extract the data..I need not explain this in detail if for some reason you cannot comprehend what I am saying but I can confirm 100% that the plugin could break at any moment and is not something XM Radio says is approved...do you really think they'd approve of thousands of requests to their servers eating their bandwidth while another company makes profit?

You really should get your info straight before implying they are infringing on license agreements

Actually my info is straight and I am more than aware of the laws regarding the use of copyright images and reselling them in commercial products..in fact I consult for many of the companies who's logos Cinemar resells as graphics packages.

While the companies do indeed give you permission in many cases to use the images for personal use I am not aware of them giving anybody permission to download all their logos and then touch them up and put them into a Flash Library to resell them and make a profit...if you somehow think this is approved by all the networks you see on DirecTV you have no clue whatsoever

Don't you think if all the DirecTV channel logos and XM channel logos could be legally used and resold in a commercial product that those companies would provide pristine versions to better advertise things...or do you really think instead they say "Just go download them off the web, feel free to touch them up and also feel free to resell them and make a profit off them"...perhaps you can explain why their is no pristine FOX network logo in your collection...I can explain a few reasons if you would like me to elaborate :-)

Perhaps know what your talking about before telling me to give it a rest...better yet lets wait to see what David or Mario will reply to any of this..I have this funny feeling they will totally ignore answering anything about scraped data and copyrighted images...enough said.

IVB, with ML I would have your same screen 1 to select the source then it would auto flip to the cd scene controlling the room that it came from. If I want a different room I would have a button cycled through different zones.

or I couls do it your way, but...

GUI 101... make scenes that require minimal button presses.

If I were to install a clients system ml would be easier and take a quater the time. I can make one gui and one set of commands. All are sent where they need to go by a simple client varaibale.


Ok, now that's an uneducated response, and you call me biased?

So far everything you've said can be done by CQC. You can absolutely do server-side logic.

You also have the option of doing client-side logic.

So, in my entirely uneducated and ignorant perspective, having a choice is better than not having a choice.

If you're a pro, you've already got a baseline template set built up that you're just "cut+pasting", to use MarkP's terms. If you don't, well check out the site in my sig and download mine, and then you do.

So please, i'm all ears, i really am: Why would using ML be faster? What choices does it give you that CQC doesn't?

IVB, with ML I would have your same screen 1 to select the source then it would auto flip to the cd scene controlling the room that it came from. If I want a different room I would have a button cycled through different zones.

or I couls do it your way, but...

GUI 101... make scenes that require minimal button presses.

Not asking how you'd redesign my flow, asking how you'd replicate my flow.

When you get to GUI 201, let me know, i'll be waiting for you. It's where I'll show you that if you have a wifi/portable panel, automagic buttons no longer work and you need to code things a different way.

BTW thartigh...remember last month Mainlobby users complaining about the length of time it took for your weather images to reload? I'll wait for anybody from Cinemar to explain *why* they took so long to load. :-)

Ah, a break in the clouds, what did I miss...Ok.

IVB, The selection form an portable tablet is dependent on how the user want to access the different functions. So in my case all my fixed panels are designed specific to the area they are in and I have options deeper in to control other rooms. On my portable the interface is more generic for now. I just got delivered an RFID dev kit and with any luck I can use it to automatically switch the scenes specific to the room it is being used in.

Dean,

You know your stuff but you are incorrect on this one. Youy are making a mountain out of a molehill. Well, actually it's bigger than a mole hill but not nearly a mountain. Both Crestron and AMX have a GUI design tool that is separate from the programming tool. There is no logic at all on the button (or very little depending on how you want to look at it). It's a very simple matter. Every button has an identification number. Crestron calls it a "join #' and AMX calls it a "channel #". So you have your programming code that you want the button to invoke. So you give the button and the code sequence the same number. THAT'S ALL there is to do! Let's suppose I have a command that I want to be able to invoke from every page. I write the code and part of that code is "trigger when button xxx is pressed". The button # xxx invokes the code. So I put button # xxx on every page. (and I could also trigger the invoking of the same code based on logic, time of day, whatever).

Now, I like your way of doing things better because it makes it a little bit easier on me as a programmer. But it's no more powerful, it just allows me to work a little faster and probably make few less mistakes (because I don't have to make sure my button numbers match the code number) so I have to debug less.

I can see how that would be a pain on a complex system. I can also see how for a predone basic system it could make things easier. If play button xxx on a generic DVD interface always joined to the play command xxx on the loaded DVD driver it could be very easy to assemble. All that's needed is not having drivers of different types sharing join numbers. Of course as soon as you add a second DVD transport the whole thing would blow up and make big headaches. 'Tis never easy.

Adding a second source isn't a problem. Add a variable marker to the command that says the source number. This is how I am selecting my different dvd changers and even locking out movies on active changers. One thing you do have to do is think a little ahead but that is part of the fun of DIY, some of your most brilliant solutions come form early miss steps. That was one of the reasons I went to custom interfaces in each room.

Design 101: Designing for Usability Primer
http://www.cinemaronlineforums.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=60424#60424

Design 201: Interfacing Mobile Users
Comming soon ;)

Ripper, Sorry, I havnt dug that deap. I just saw the links from WC and assumed thats where all the data came from. Guess we will have to hear from cinemar on that. Again, sorry!

IVB, Lathan explainded it well. I no longer use portables cause they were a pain having to worry about charging. But I had two and always had them default to the room they were docked in. Mainly because they were used in the dock more than anything else.

Adding a second source isn't a problem. Add a variable marker to the command that says the source number. This is how I am selecting my different dvd changers and even locking out movies on active changers. One thing you do have to do is think a little ahead but that is part of the fun of DIY, some of your most brilliant solutions come form early miss steps. That was one of the reasons I went to custom interfaces in each room.

The CQC action system supports those types of variables. They are commonly used to have a single interface be able to control multiple instances of a device, by having the read/written fields be accessed indirectly via a variable that is set by the button that loads it or set in the particular host's environment (which can be used for things like setting the home zone for a hard mounted touch screen and so forth.)

They are also used, if you watch the 'how to password protect' video I posted above, to pass information between interfaces and for use locally within a particular action for scratch values that are tossed when it ends.

Because of the ability to easily do logic in the actions, you don't have to limit them to just something like 'replace this with the number of the zone'. You can react to their value and build up complex names of things you want to access for a given zone, for instance.

But they don't refer to some central database. They refer to whatever you want them to refer to. It's more of a programming language paradigm than having tokens that refer to a central database of items.

1 touchscreen per room?

Damn. You guys must have fantastically understanding wives. I have one wifi that's kept in the MBR (usually), and one for the kitchen. I project the CQC InterfaceViewer directly on the plasma for the H/T room. I am straight-up banned from buying a 3rd one to keep in the family/living/etc rooms, so I got 2 docks - once for the MBR, one for the FamRm. I just leave it in the closest dock.

I also have a wife and inlaws who are anti-techie and don't like automagic things as a rule. Given that I have 2 fixed and 1 portable, rather than have templates that behave differently I made them all with the 2 button paradigm (once to change source, once to select room).

Hence, I need to have that additional logic.

IVB, try living with a graphic designer :rolleyes: Hiding Winterms and reworking scenes because the drapes changed is no fun. The list goes on and on. Anything to keep the WAF high.

Take a look at some of the smaller machines like the Q1 for a portable solution. The screen is 800x480 and I think 8" diagonal. I am not running one but I am using a couple screens the same size. One of the better $125 eBay finds.

If I get the RFID stuff working I will pass it on.

Back to waiting :)

actually I put them all over.

1 - garage-15" elo for movies as well

1 - bar on the deck

1 - hottub on the deck

3 - greatroom - kitchen counter, coffee table, enrty.

1- master bath

1- master bedroom

1- guest bedroom


Overall I would again say that both acheive the same thing with a different approach. It just depends on which approach you like. I dont like CQC's approach after learning about it. But thats me, others appear to love it. That is the great part about having a choice. For me the debate is over, I learned what I needed.

But that wont leave me saying that cinemar is better. Just because I think it is doesnt mean anything. To MEEEEEEEE they are both equal and one way or another I can control what I want wether you use a 3rd party plugin or whatever. Both have ways of controlling and doing the same things.

Guess its all part of advertising, everybody says they have the best burger in the world but that dont mean its true.

RFID? LathanM, which solution? BTW, a MainLobby 1-Wire plugin is just about done which will also support iButton which works great for authentication.