May 28, 2007 EDIT:

Basically all the significant sync issues with discs I purchased before the Xbox 360 HD DVD Update came out have been fixed. However there is a new one...

The Matrix is out of sync. (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10651350#post10651350)

:( :(

Reports (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=852298) are that it's also out of sync with the Toshibas.

Some from Microsoft had said that The Matrix had been tested, but I guess this was overlooked.


-------

So, my brand new Xbox 360 HD DVD drive setup has audio/video synchronization issues, at least with certain discs and audio tracks.

I only have one TrueHD disc, Batman Begins, and it's with that track that I notice it the most. Actually, unless my eyes and ears deceive me, it seems like the audio lags the video (instead of the other way around, which is what is often reported with other hardware).

Could the Xbox 360 be lagging in audio because of the requirement of decoding TrueHD and then re-encoding it DD5.1 is too much via software? Is decoding TrueHD harder than decoding Dolby Digital Plus? I also wonder if I'm getting slight audio sync issues with other DD+ tracks, but if there it's pretty minor.

I have NO audio sync issues whatsoever with anything else, including 360 gaming, 360 DVD playback, WMV trailers on the 360, two DVD players (including one progressive scan one) with either DD or DTS, or my HD PVR.

My setup:

My Toshiba CW34XC2 34" widescreen CRT and Kenwood VR-510 receiver are hooked up to all my components through a Zektor HDS4.1 (http://www.zektor.com/hds41/index.html) component & digital audio switcher. The Zektor is hooked up to the receiver and the Xbox 360 both via optical. ie.

DVD 1 (480p) --> Zektor
DVD 2 (480i) --> Zektor
Xbox (1080i) --> Zektor
PVR (1080i) --> Zektor

Zektor --> TV + receiver

Do you also have sync issues, and if so, with what? I note that others have noticed lip sync problems with TrueHD as well, but with different discs (like Constantine (http://avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=717245)) and on Toshiba standalones. I don't see many reports of this problem with the Xbox 360 setup, but I wonder if that's just because it's so new.

Is this a hardware issue, an HD DVD disc issue, or both?

EDIT:

The lag IS definitely there with Dolby Digital Plus tracks too. It's very mild, and I suspect most people wouldn't notice it, but it's real. I see/hear it on Batman Begins DD+, King Kong DD+, and Pitch Black DD+ tracks. I have to pay very close attention to see it, but I'm now 100% convinced of it.

Either my receiver/setup is lagging with decoding 640 Kbps DD, or else Microsoft's implementation of audio output synchronization needs some more work.

None so far, but I have only watched four disks.

So it's not just me...

Somebody else at the Xbox forums has independently reported the same issue. (http://forums.xbox.com/8181232/ShowPost.aspx)

"When I put in the Batman Begins HD DVD in the player, it loaded up and played great. Once I switched the audio track to Dolby TrueHD the audio started actually lagging. It is behind by only a fraction of a second, but is very noticable. If I switched the audio track to Dolby Digital Plus there are no sync issues. The same thing happens when running the sound directly to my Samsung LCD TV and through my 5.1 sound system (hooked up using optical), so this definitely seems to be a system-thing, such as the 360 not being able to transcode the TrueHD fast enough. My 360 is hooked up to my TV using component."


None so far, but I have only watched four disks.
Do you have any TrueHD discs?

Batman and Phantom of the Opera. I think traiing Day had it as well but I did not watch it yet, just looked at some scenes.

Batman and Phantom of the Opera. I think traiing Day had it as well but I did not watch it yet, just looked at some scenes.
Yeah, but were you actually using the TrueHD tracks or just the DD+ tracks?

Others at AVS are also reporting (http://avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=717245) TrueHD sync problems with Constantine (on Toshiba standalones). I don't have Constantine so I can't test it.

Yeah, I wanna say I saw a slight sync problem on Batman Begins on the True HD track too.
I was hoping it was my imagination. Damn.
And yes the audio seemed behind the video.

No problems on the DD+ on BB, KK, or MI:3.
OMG, LOL could I use any more acronymns? :rolleyes:

Yeah, I wanna say I saw a slight sync problem on Batman Begins on the True HD track too.
I was hoping it was my imagination. Damn.
And yes the audio seemed behind the video.

No problems on the DD+ on BB, KK, or MI:3.
OMG, LOL could I use any more acronymns? :rolleyes:
Vote in the poll! :)

P.S. Those audio lag correcting receivers will NOT solve this problem. Why? Cuz usually the problem is a TV with video lag. As I understand it, these receivers (and standalone boxes) will "correct" the problem by ADDING a delay to the audio.

In the case of the Xbox 360 with TrueHD tracks, that would just make things worse.

I wonder if transcoding to 1.5 Mbps DTS would be less laggy than transcoding to 640 Kbps DD. Amir said they were considering adding DTS output support to the Xbox 360.

No problems on the DD+ on BB, KK, or MI:3.
OMG, LOL could I use any more acronymns? :rolleyes:

You forgot "NP"

Vote in the poll! :)

P.S. Those audio lag correcting receivers will NOT solve this problem. Why? Cuz usually the problem is a TV with video lag. As I understand it, these receivers (and standalone boxes) will "correct" the problem by ADDING a delay to the audio.

In the case of the Xbox 360 with TrueHD tracks, that would just make things worse.

I wonder if transcoding to 1.5 Mbps DTS would be less laggy than transcoding to 640 Kbps DD. Amir said they were considering adding DTS output support to the Xbox 360.

Yeah, my receiver has a function to correct sync but like you said, it adds delay, that's what sucks...we need the audio AHEAD of the video...

You forgot "NP"

THX! :p

Yeah, my receiver has a function to correct sync but like you said, it adds delay, that's what sucks...we need the audio AHEAD of the video...

Since there is no way (obviously) for the receiver to output sound before it gets the signal... I guess one would have to add a delay to the TV set...

Turn all those image processing options on!! :D

Since there is no way (obviously) for the receiver to output sound before it gets the signal... I guess one would have to add a delay to the TV set...

Turn all those image processing options on!! :D

I think I'll just enjoy at least 6 beers now before enabling TrueHD soundtracks, that should add the necessary delay in my internal video processing... :D

I also wonder if I'm getting slight audio sync issues with other DD+ tracks, but if there it's pretty minor.
The lag IS definitely there with Dolby Digital Plus tracks too. It's very mild, and I suspect most people wouldn't notice it, but it's real. I see/hear it on Batman Begins DD+, King Kong DD+, and Pitch Black DD+ tracks. I have to pay very close attention to see it, but I'm now 100% convinced of it.

I note some other people who have voted in the poll have also noticed this too.

I just watch Constantine with the 360 HD DVD addon and didnt notice any lag issues.

BTW the Constantine HD DVD video is not as good as the others HD DVD that I picked up (Riddick, Pitch Black, Gran Prix, K Kong, Phantom and Last Samurai). Its just barely better then the DVD version thru my HTPC setup. Not worth to upgrade if you have the DVD.

The lag IS definitely there with Dolby Digital Plus tracks too. It's very mild, and I suspect most people wouldn't notice it, but it's real. I see/hear it on Batman Begins DD+, King Kong DD+, and Pitch Black DD+ tracks. I have to pay very close attention to see it, but I'm now 100% convinced of it.

I note some other people who have voted in the poll have also noticed this too.
Ok, here's a crazy theory:

Old CRTs are known to have minimal video processing delays, because they do a lot less processing than some newer TVs.

However, many newer TVs do all sorts of processing, and add delay in the video output. Put that very slightly delayed video together with the slightly delayed audio of the Xbox 360 HD DVD Dolby Digital Plus tracks, and the delays cancel each other out. IOW, a modern TV with the Xbox 360 = no significant net delay.

However, on an older but fast CRT like mine the DD+ --> DD audio transcoding delay of the Xbox 360 may become noticeable.

Either way, I hope this is fixable (even with a software transcoder like the Xbox 360).

I tested with my 4 HD-DVD's that have TrueHD tracks - Troy, Batman, Constantine and V4V. The only noticeable issue was with Batman, if there was any with the other discs I didnt see it. I only sampled random scenes with lots of dialog and didnt watch the whole movie through so I'm not sure if this would be a good enough test to confirm but so far Batman seems to be the major culprit.

DD+ seemed fine to me.

I tested with my 4 HD-DVD's that have TrueHD tracks - Troy, Batman, Constantine and V4V. The only noticeable issue was with Batman, if there was any with the other discs I didnt see it. I only sampled random scenes with lots of dialog and didnt watch the whole movie through so I'm not sure if this would be a good enough test to confirm but so far Batman seems to be the major culprit.

DD+ seemed fine to me.
Thanks. What setup do you have?

Constantine TrueHD has been mentioned as having a problem with Toshiba standalones, but not yet with the Xbox 360 HD DVD. However, that may be because the thread for Constantine TrueHD sync issues is so old. It's a thread that preceded the release of the 360 add-on.

Thanks. What setup do you have?

Constantine TrueHD has been mentioned as having a problem with Toshiba standalones, but not yet with the Xbox 360 HD DVD. However, that may be because the thread for Constantine TrueHD sync issues is so old. It's a thread that preceded the release of the 360 add-on.

I remember the thread on Constantine, I was expecting that one to have sync issues but didnt see any. I have a Denon 7.1 speaker system driven by a Samsung 6.1 HTIB amp. Optical cables are Audioquest.

I remember the thread on Constantine, I was expecting that one to have sync issues but didnt see any. I have a Denon 7.1 speaker system driven by a Samsung 6.1 HTIB amp. Optical cables are Audioquest.
Actually, I was wondering about your TV. Do you know if it has any video lag?

If your TV has some mild inherent lag, any audio lag may not be as noticeable.

Actually, I was wondering about your TV. Do you know if it has any video lag?

If your TV has some mild inherent lag, any audio lag may not be as noticeable.

My tv is a Dell 37" LCD, cant say I notice any lag from tv viewing or playing games.

How are you reproducing the TrueHD track with a xBox 360? Does the 360 HD DVD player have a decoder built in for True HD? And even if it does, according to the Dolby report (see link below) in order to receive TrueHD you have to use either HDMI or six channel analog inputs, neither of which the xBox 360 has. So how are you sending the audio to your receiver in order to generate TrueHD? Maybe that is the cause of your problem?

http://www.dolby.com/promo/hd/connector_diagrams.html

I believe that all HD dvd's, either HD DVD or BlueRay, have a HD soundtrack like TrueHD but very few AVR units can reproduce it. Actually, I am not sure that there are any receivers that are able to reproduce it on the market yet. Simply having an HDMI input is not enough, they must be able to decode the signal as well. For this reason, the current generation of stand alone HD players, such as the Toshiba, incorporate the decoding internally and therefore can send the TrueHD signal to the receiver. But they still have to use HDMI or six channel analog to get it there, and the xBox has neither. Maybe your receiver is taking the audio and converting it into DD 5.1 and this conversion process is creating an audio lag? Try it on regular DD or DTS and see if you still have the lag problems.

How are you reproducing the TrueHD track with a xBox 360? Does the 360 HD DVD player have a decoder built in for True HD? And even if it does, according to the Dolby report (see link below) in order to receive TrueHD you have to use either HDMI or six channel analog inputs, neither of which the xBox 360 has. So how are you sending the audio to your receiver in order to generate TrueHD? Maybe that is the cause of your problem?

http://www.dolby.com/promo/hd/connector_diagrams.html

I believe that all HD dvd's, either HD DVD or BlueRay, have a HD soundtrack like TrueHD but very few AVR units can reproduce it. Actually, I am not sure that there are any receivers that are able to reproduce it on the market yet. Simply having an HDMI input is not enough, they must be able to decode the signal as well. For this reason, the current generation of stand alone HD players, such as the Toshiba, incorporate the decoding internally and therefore can send the TrueHD signal to the receiver. But they still have to use HDMI or six channel analog to get it there, and the xBox has neither. Maybe your receiver is taking the audio and converting it into DD 5.1 and this conversion process is creating an audio lag? Try it on regular DD or DTS and see if you still have the lag problems.
This has been discussed before. Check out the Xbox 360 HD DVD FAQ thread.

TrueHD support is mandatory in the HD DVD spec (although the minimum spec is that only TrueHD 2.0 needs to be supported for output). The 360 will decode a TrueHD 5.1 track, and then it re-encodes it to DD 5.1 for playback on current receivers.

Yes, it's very possible that this TrueHD --> DD5.1 transcoding (in the 360) is causing a lag in the audio. In fact that possibility has already been mentioned here. However, we don't know if this is really the issue. It's just a theory, since we don't have inside info.

However, I also do hear a very slight lag with DD+ tracks as well but it's minor. As for DD or DTS tracks, most HD DVDs don't have either format. Note though that the DD would still need to be decoded internally IIRC, because the player needs to mix in player sounds and then reencode that to DD before output.

audio sync problems with xbox 360 hd-dvd add-on

I noticed significant lip sync problems with "grand Prix" hd-dvd. To my eyes and ears the voices are delayed compared to video. It was so noticeable to me that i thought i was watching a dubbed foreign film. I can understand, however, how many would overlook it if they were not paying close attention. According to review of this hd-dvd at high-def digest website this movie has "dolby digital plus" soundtrack only. Their review makes no mention of audiosync problems, which makes me suspect that the 360 add-on is the culprit. Unfortunately, I do not possess a stand alone hd-dvd player to do a/b comparison. FWIW i am using official xbox 360 hd/av cable with optical into a yamaha receiver. sony 32" xbr1 lcd.

question:
is this problem evident on stand alone hd-dvd players? implicating the movie itself or hd-dvd platform as the cause? OR is the 360 add-on deficient.

This has been discussed before. Check out the Xbox 360 HD DVD FAQ thread.

TrueHD support is mandatory in the HD DVD spec (although the minimum spec is that only TrueHD 2.0 needs to be supported for output). The 360 will decode a TrueHD 5.1 track, and then it re-encodes it to DD 5.1 for playback on current receivers.

Yes, it's very possible that this TrueHD --> DD5.1 transcoding (in the 360) is causing a lag in the audio. In fact that possibility has already been mentioned here. However, we don't know if this is really the issue. It's just a theory, since we don't have inside info.

However, I also do hear a very slight lag with DD+ tracks as well but it's minor. As for DD or DTS tracks, most HD DVDs don't have either format. Note though that the DD would still need to be decoded internally IIRC, because the player needs to mix in player sounds and then reencode that to DD before output.

yes, this is what I was talking about. From the posting it seemed that some were under the impression that they were receiving TrueHD soundtracks, instead of a coverted track. ANd yes, this conversion may be the cause of the lag. And since the conversion is being done in the player, as I understand it, this may be the issue. Unfortunately, with the xBox, you have no other option as it is incapable of outputing a TrueHD signal (no HDMI or analog outputs). The same can be said for DD+. For those disc that do have optional DD 5.1 or DTS tracks (if there are any?) does switching to them get rid of the lag problem?

yes, this is what I was talking about. From the posting it seemed that some were under the impression that they were receiving TrueHD soundtracks, instead of a coverted track. ANd yes, this conversion may be the cause of the lag. And since the conversion is being done in the player, as I understand it, this may be the issue. Unfortunately, with the xBox, you have no other option as it is incapable of outputing a TrueHD signal (no HDMI or analog outputs). The same can be said for DD+. For those disc that do have optional DD 5.1 or DTS tracks (if there are any?) does switching to them get rid of the lag problem?
Well, like I said, IIRC DTS and DD 5.1 would still need to be decoded internally. The player sounds are mixed in after the decode, and then it would be re-encoded to DD 5.1 before output.

So, there is still potential for lag there. However, my guess is it's a lot easier to decode DD 5.1 than it is 1.5 Mbps DD+.


audio sync problems with xbox 360 hd-dvd add-on

I noticed significant lip sync problems with "grand Prix" hd-dvd. To my eyes and ears the voices are delayed compared to video. It was so noticeable to me that i thought i was watching a dubbed foreign film. I can understand, however, how many would overlook it if they were not paying close attention. According to review of this hd-dvd at high-def digest website this movie has "dolby digital plus" soundtrack only. Their review makes no mention of audiosync problems, which makes me suspect that the 360 add-on is the culprit. Unfortunately, I do not possess a stand alone hd-dvd player to do a/b comparison. FWIW i am using official xbox 360 hd/av cable with optical into a yamaha receiver. sony 32" xbr1 lcd.
Ouch. :( So your audio sync issues with DD+ sound even worse than mine.

question:
is this problem evident on stand alone hd-dvd players? implicating the movie itself or hd-dvd platform as the cause? OR is the 360 add-on deficient.
Somebody has reported sync problems with Constantine TrueHD, with the Toshiba standalone (firmware 2.0).

the hd add on is having all kinds of problems with sound, just check the hddvd player forum. DD+ sound tracks sound awful.

the hd add on is having all kinds of problems with sound, just check the hddvd player forum. DD+ sound tracks sound awful.
I'm not sure I 100% agree with those posts. DD+ --> DD definitely sounds different from TrueHD --> DD. However, if you turn up the volume, some of the differences go away, since it seems some of the difference is due to the volumes. I think I still may prefer the TrueHD --> DD mix over the DD+ --> DD mix, but overall, I think both are reasonable.

Lip sync problems are a much bigger issue IMO, but YMMV.

pop in a SD dvd version of king kong, blows the hddvd version away.

pop in a SD dvd version of king kong, blows the hddvd version away.
I have SD King Kong. The mix is definitely different, and I might prefer the SD DVD's track, but I wouldn't say it blows it away once you adjust for levels.

But then again, I'm probably not the best to judge, since I don't have my subwoofer connected at the moment. P!sses off my neighbours too much. :p

Either way, that's a completely separate issue. Even if there is something wonky about the DD+ --> DD mix, it's an issue that doesn't concern me that much, at least with my current subwoofer-less setup.

The lip sync issue concerns me much more, and there is that whole other thread about KK DD+ --> DD transcoding on the 360 anyway.

I noticed significant lip sync problems with "grand Prix" hd-dvd. To my eyes and ears the voices are delayed compared to video. It was so noticeable to me that i thought i was watching a dubbed foreign film. I can understand, however, how many would overlook it if they were not paying close attention.

I've watched Grand Prix and didn't notice a problem. That said, it was the first HD-DVD I watched and I might not have been attuned to the problem. I've since watched Firewall and also didn't notice audio lag. But that movie was so extraordinarily bad I may not have been paying close enough attention to it.

I was watching Mission Impossible 3 on the HD-DVD add on, and my wife noticed that the audio slightly lagged behind the video. I exchanged the movie for a new one thinking the disc was defective, but apparently it was not. I didn't notice any lag with King Kong, but I will take a closer look later.

I have my 360 hooked up via optical audio to my samsung receiver, which ouptuts 5.1 digital surround sound.

Hopefully another dashboard update can resolve this issue.

I contacted amirm and this issue is being looked into.

I contacted amirm and this issue is being looked into.
Good to know he's aware. BTW, Ghent (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8914100&&#post8914100) in the Xbox HD DVD thread also mentioned they were looking into this, and was looking for information on people's setups.


I was watching Mission Impossible 3 on the HD-DVD add on, and my wife noticed that the audio slightly lagged behind the video. I exchanged the movie for a new one thinking the disc was defective, but apparently it was not. I didn't notice any lag with King Kong, but I will take a closer look later.

I have my 360 hooked up via optical audio to my samsung receiver, which ouptuts 5.1 digital surround sound.

Hopefully another dashboard update can resolve this issue.
It's of note that Mission Impossible: III has a Dolby Digital Plus track. TrueHD tracks (on other discs) may be worse (or not).

Which TV?

---

These are some TVs that lag for video playback. Thus, these TVs may mask the audio lag issue of the Xbox 360 HD DVD.

IGN: HDTV Lag Report (http://gear.ign.com/articles/720/720303p2.html)

Samsung
Samsung LN-S4051D LCD HDTV
Severe lag in 480i, 480p. Game Mode doesn't help much.

Samsung HLR-5087, 50" widescreen DLP
Lags even with DNIe off. Bad with 480i, 480p.

Samsung HL-R5064W 50" DLP HDTV
Gaming Mode doesn't help, horrible.

Samsung HLR5067WX/XAA 50" DLP
Serious lag with 480i, 480p no lag.

Samsung HL-P5085W DLP
Heavy lag on S-Video and Composite.

Samsung SP-46L6HX

Samsung DLP HDTV, Model #HLR5067WX/XAA Version:PW01

Samsung HL-S4266W
Even in 720p

Samsung 32" LCD TV LE32T51

Samsung HL-R6168W DLP
Very bad lag with component. Reduced with VGA.

Samsung DLP 5078 models

Samsung HL-S5086W
Very minimal lag with Gaming Mode.

Sharp
27" Sharp Aquos HDTV/HDMI
Lags in: Prey, Oblivion

Sanyo
Sanyo Vizon 26-inch

Westinghouse
Westinghouse LTV-27-w2 27'' LCD
16ms response time blurs, lags with standard RCA, no lag with component, even in 480i.

Polaroid
Polaroid FLM-323B 32"
Lags with the Dreamcast via Composite.

Sony
SONY KD-SR50XBR1

Dell
Dell 32 inch LCD (W3201C)

JVC
JVC AV-48WP74 48'' Rear-projection CRT

InFocus
InFocus 61'' DLP

I notice the problem on KK. I have a brand new XBOX connected to a Sony Bravia 40" LCD XBR1 by component + stereo audio. It's subtle. I don't think my regular DVDs played on the HD DVD player have the audio sync problem. Also, why is the volume so low on both types of DVDs? I have to crank the TV volume for DVDs and then tunr it down when I play games.

On a positive note the HD DVD player plays my DVD-R single and DVD+R dual layer discs fine. The built in drive does not recognize my Verbatim DVD+R DL media.

I'm having audio lag issues as well (about 1/4 sec. behind visual), but it seems to be regardless of whether I select TrueHD or Dobly 5.1. It also occurs regardless of whether I'm using the digital optical connection or the normal red/white composite audio cables. I called 1-800-4MY-XBOX, but they hadn't heard of the issue.

The most painfully obvious way to detect the lag is to watch one of these scenes from Batman Begins: 1) the third to last chapter where Bruce is hammering the nail (you'll hear the delayed bang as he's lifting the hammer), or 2) the very begining of the credits where the words "BATMAN BEGINS" pop up. (The music is supposed to start at the exact moment the words appear, not right after.)

These became all the more apparent when I compared the Batman Begins non-lagging DVD to the HD-DVD. Grrr....

So... So far over 20% of voters have the audio lag issue. This is huge.

For the record, I tried clearing the disk cache as someone suggested, but it did absolutely nothing to fix the lag. Some people have claimed it fixed their video stuttering, but even if it did work for that, it's a different issue.

I have an extended return policy (for Xmas) on this HD DVD drive. If the audio lag issue isn't fixed by the beginning of January, I will likely return it.

I havent run into that problem..
Ive seen king kong, last samurai, house of wax, so far everything is cool and tons of sd-dvds.

Not to sound ignorant, but how do you bring up the title menu for batman begins because the menu that pops up is one on the bottom and that doesn't allow me to pick the audio options, btw this also happens to me while playing V for Vendetta.

Not to sound ignorant, but how do you bring up the title menu for batman begins because the menu that pops up is one on the bottom and that doesn't allow me to pick the audio options, btw this also happens to me while playing V for Vendetta.
? The menu on the bottom has a settings option that allows you to select the audio track.

Doh!, it's under language settings, didn't bother to look at it since the hd-dvd started in english, ah well, gonna test it out then to see if there's any lag.

I rented Aeon Flux from Netflix. This disc has both DD Plus and DTS soundtracks. When I play either soundtrack, it's converted to dolby digital. Shouldn't it pass the DTS soundtrack through?

Hmmm...

When I play the picture-in-picture special feature of Batman Begins, there doesn't seem to be any audio lag for that.


I rented Aeon Flux from Netflix. This disc has both DD Plus and DTS soundtracks. When I play either soundtrack, it's converted to dolby digital. Shouldn't it pass the DTS soundtrack through?
No. It decodes it, adds in the player sounds, and then re-encodes it to Dolby Digital for output.

Hmmm...
No. It decodes it, adds in the player sounds, and then re-encodes it to Dolby Digital for output.

Which just seems wrong to me. Decoding and re-encoding the next gen formats, that I understand. Reprocessing existing audio formats to DD? Odd.

No problem with lag here.

Just finished watching Batman Begins and can report that I have no problem.

If it was not for the hammer banging scene...I would not have noticed this. But the hammer is definately out of sync with the sound....BUT in all the closeup scenes moments later...I swear the lips are in sync....also the music does start exactly when the words appear.

I have now watched the scene multiple times with Holmes right after the kiss where they have a closeup of her mouth talking ...it looks perfectly in sync to me!

Weird....

I just bought batman begins last night. Watched it with the TrueHD track on. No sync Issues.

If it was not for the hammer banging scene...I would not have noticed this. But the hammer is definately out of sync with the sound....BUT in all the closeup scenes moments later...I swear the lips are in sync....also the music does start exactly when the words appear.

I have now watched the scene multiple times with Holmes right after the kiss where they have a closeup of her mouth talking ...it looks perfectly in sync to me!
Yes, the Batman Begins hammer banging scene (at the end, with about 14 minutes left in the movie), seems the most obvious. Could it be this scene is off on the disc? Or is it just because it's the easiest to notice with its very fast movements and quick sounds?

I think it's the latter, but I haven't repeatedly watched this scene so I'm not 100% sure. The reason I say it may be the latter though, is because when I first noticed this issue, I found it very hard to notice with certain dialogue if it's off very slightly, but the more you watch the more you begin to notice it.

BTW, what I've also noticed... If I just the let Batman Begins play from the beginning non-stop, there is minimal problems in the audio sync with the DD+ track. If it's there, it's minor. However, sometimes when I skip around the disc or start changing the audio tracks, I get the lag. And it's always the audio lagging the video. Furthermore, sometimes when I skip around some more, the audio gets back very close to sync.

I'm starting to wonder if it's not really TrueHD that magnifies the audio sync problem. Perhaps it is switching to TrueHD that causes the problem. Cuz once or twice now I've noticed that DD+ loss of sync was just as bad as what I had previously noted with TrueHD.

Oh and just to confirm I'm not psychotic and imagining everything... ;)

It was so bad that my GF commented on it. I put on Batman Begins and just let it play. I thought I saw a very slight audio log problem but she didn't notice anything... However, we missed the dialogue of one scene because of background noises in my house, and skipped back to start the chapter over again. Immediately the loss of sync was obvious, and my GF said it was like watching a cheap dubbed foreign movie.

Hmmmm...I think the hammer scene is slightly off as encoded on the disk....if I watch the frames just preceding it...where he throws the planks down...the sound of the planks hitting match perfectly...then the hammer scene is off...then the lips are perfectly in sync!

I also wondered about the effect of skipping around....your report confirms my suspicion that any lag effect is made worse by skipping around rather than playing through.

In any case...on my playback...eveything looks fine with the exception of the hammer. I strained to see a lip sync issue ( I am sensitive to this issue in general) and couldn't find one.

Hmmmm...I think the hammer scene is slightly off as encoded on the disk....if I watch the frames just preceding it...where he throws the planks down...the sound of the planks hitting match perfectly...then the hammer scene is off...then the lips are perfectly in sync!
You could be right. I'll have to check that out again later.

I also wondered about the effect of skipping around....your report confirms my suspicion that any lag effect is made worse by skipping around rather than playing through.
Much to my GF's annoyance, I tend to RW every so often on my movies.

Maybe that's one reason I notice the sync issue more than others.

I just picked up the drive tonight, maybe you all can help me. When playing games, I have my receiver at around -27 or so. For the HD-DVD movies I had to put it all the way up to -5 which if I had anything else on would have been deafening. Anyone else have this issue?

I just picked up the drive tonight, maybe you all can help me. When playing games, I have my receiver at around -27 or so. For the HD-DVD movies I had to put it all the way up to -5 which if I had anything else on would have been deafening. Anyone else have this issue?
Yes I have the same issue. It looks like some of the movie's are recorded at a diff ref level. Phantom of the Opera is the worst. I had Phantom playing at a good level and after the movie I'd start GoW and the Epic splash screen almost blew my walls down.... :rolleyes:

Yes, the Batman Begins hammer banging scene (at the end, with about 14 minutes left in the movie), seems the most obvious. Could it be this scene is off on the disc? Or is it just because it's the easiest to notice with its very fast movements and quick sounds?

I think it's the latter, but I haven't repeatedly watched this scene so I'm not 100% sure. The reason I say it may be the latter though, is because when I first noticed this issue, I found it very hard to notice with certain dialogue if it's off very slightly, but the more you watch the more you begin to notice it.
P.S. That scene is at about 2:06:10.

Yes, the Batman Begins hammer banging scene (at the end, with about 14 minutes left in the movie), seems the most obvious. Could it be this scene is off on the disc? Or is it just because it's the easiest to notice with its very fast movements and quick sounds?P.S. That scene is at about 2:06:10.
BTW, it ain't just a misplaced sound effect.

Go to Chapter 37 of Batman Begins at 2:05:04, and watch the CEO's lips when he says "What meeting?". It's definitely off there, with about the same lag as the hammer scene. Oh and it's not a receiver issue, as I tried using the analogue stereo outputs of the Xbox 360, with the same exact results.

On the other hand, just about every extra I've watched has been perfectly synced.

P.S. I'm happy to report that Microsoft is actively pursuing this. I got emailed by people from MS trying to get more details on the issue. They've heard about the issue from more than one source, and are trying to get to the bottom of this.


I see a small lip sync problem on King Kong. I have my XBOX 360 connected to a Sony 40" XBR1 LCD Tv via component and stereo audio cables. It is very subtle though..the audio is lagging be a few milliseconds, not terrible but I hope that it can be fixed by a software update.
I noticed the same thing with King Kong, but it's really subtle. More than a few ms, but still pretty minor. I'll try to watch the entire movie one night this week, but 3 hours is a long time. :p

HD DVD update (http://www.majornelson.com/archive/2006/11/21/hd-dvd-auto-update.aspx)
If you have an Xbox 360 HD DVD player, you’ll be prompted for an auto update the next time you watch an HD DVD movie. This update has no new features in it, but contains title specific movie playback improvements and few fixes to some localized text (and I’d imagine a few more lines of code )

If you don’t have access to Xbox Live, you can download the free update from Xbox.com.
The friendly neighbourhood Microsoft guys suggested I try this update to see if it fixes the audio sync issues. However, they didn't actually say it would fix them all or not. They just said to try it. I haven't yet though because when I checked yesterday, it wasn't available. I'll give it a shot tonite.

I've watched Grand Prix and didn't notice a problem. That said, it was the first HD-DVD I watched and I might not have been attuned to the problem. I've since watched Firewall and also didn't notice audio lag. But that movie was so extraordinarily bad I may not have been paying close enough attention to it.

I also just checked Grand Prix, which I'd watched a couple of nights ago, and again didn't see/notice any audio lag. I also tried out Riddick and KK, and didn't notice a lag.

Perhaps it's too minor for me to notice, but I have noticed lag a long time ago on my old Comcast HD DVR, so I do know that I'm sensitive enough, to a point, to notice it.

I've yet to see it on the movies I own.

I have seen other forums, and if I recall even in this forum, comments about Batman Begins having some audio sync issues.

-JR

I installed the HD DVD Auto Update (http://www.majornelson.com/archive/2006/11/21/hd-dvd-auto-update.aspx) last night. To install it, I had to both log into Xbox Live and insert an HD DVD disc, then after that the Xbox 360 prompted me to do the update. (When I first stuck in an HD DVD, I wasn't logged in, and got no update prompt.)

I watched most of King Kong yesterday. I'm not 100% sure if the audio sync is perfect or not, but it's pretty damn close, and even if isn't perfect it's "good enough" for the vast majority of people. ie. I'm wondering if there is a very, very slight audio delay with King Kong, but if there, it's certainly not major.

However, Batman Begins is still off sync in the same scenes I posted above (2:05:04, 2:06:10) as well as elsewhere, and it still gets worse with TrueHD. I only skipped around the disc a bit, and didn't watch all of Batman Begins though. The good news is that skipping around didn't produce the severe audio sync issues it can sometimes cause with this disc. I didn't skip around that much though, and the severe sync issues that happen just from this skipping around were infrequent to begin with.

I didn't have time to watch anything else last night. That was almost 4 hours of HD DVD time as it is! ;)

It's too bad Microsoft didn't provide the details of the update.

Yeah I just got my add-on today, and bought BB. Audio is off in both DD+ and TrueHD.

King Kong looked fine from the few scenes i tested out.

My TV is a 34" Panasonic CRT HDTV, hooked up to crappy logitech z680 speaks.

after the new update i watched "the lakehouse" hd-dvd.
sadly, there was slight but noticeable audio sync (delay). fwiw i only noticed near the end after multiple manual pauses/start/stops on my part. don't know if this exacerbates this audio sync problem.

I just got my 360 add-on today and have watched KK and Corpse Bride and didn't notice any problems. Couldn't tell you if it was on TrueHD or DD+ as I just put the thing in and hit play.

The 360 is using analog audio to a Sony 7.1 amp set on 2 channel stereo, and a Sony 34" XBR

So far everything sounds fine to me and the PQ is great. I used money I got for my birthday and from selling off a few PSX games, basically it was a present, so I'm very happy with it.

I just got my 360 add-on today and have watched KK and Corpse Bride and didn't notice any problems. Couldn't tell you if it was on TrueHD or DD+ as I just put the thing in and hit play.

The 360 is using analog audio to a Sony 7.1 amp set on 2 channel stereo, and a Sony 34" XBR

So far everything sounds fine to me and the PQ is great. I used money I got for my birthday and from selling off a few PSX games, basically it was a present, so I'm very happy with it.
TrueHD is selectable on Batman Begins by going to the Settings --> Languages menu.


after the new update i watched "the lakehouse" hd-dvd.
sadly, there was slight but noticeable audio sync (delay). fwiw i only noticed near the end after multiple manual pauses/start/stops on my part. don't know if this exacerbates this audio sync problem.
Somebody on the xbox.com forums also reported audio sync problems with The Lakehouse.

i have watched king kong and sahara. sahara i tried it on dolby plus and dts, the dts was almost twice as loud as the dolby plus. my reciever showed them both at dolby digital. even though my reciever decodes dts.

The most painfully obvious way to detect the lag is to watch one of these scenes from Batman Begins: 1) the third to last chapter where Bruce is hammering the nail (you'll hear the delayed bang as he's lifting the hammer), or 2) the very begining of the credits where the words "BATMAN BEGINS" pop up. (The music is supposed to start at the exact moment the words appear, not right after.)

These became all the more apparent when I compared the Batman Begins non-lagging DVD to the HD-DVD. Grrr....

After reading this post I decided to pop in Batman Begins.

When switching between 5.1 and Dolby True HD I did notice some sync issues.

While playing the hammer scene in Dolby Digital, the sound of the hammer banging against the board seemed perfectly in sync.

However, when I played the same scene using Dolby True HD I began to notice the delay in sound. I'm wondering if maybe the fact that the XBox 360 HD DVD add on can't output Dolby TrueHD is maybe behind it

I have a Toshiba 42hp95 and an old kenwood 5.1, in addition to my XBox 360 and HD DVD add on, which is set to 720p. It is nowhere near the best setup, but overall I'm quite impressed with the 360 and the HD DVD add on.

I do hope that MS addresses these issues, if and when, they decide to support Dolby TrueHD through HDMi or analog component.

^^^ Vote in the poll! :)

P.S. I watched The Thing and the sync for that seems OK. I also skipped around Casablanca (didn't watch the whole thing though) and that also seems OK.

Corpse Bride looks OK too but it's hard to say with that movie since it's an animated feature.

No issues of Audio Sync here.

Significant audio delay on Apollo 13, especially towards the end of the movie. Also, slightly off in Terminator 3 and Superman Returns (on both sound formats) - only 3 or 4 frames out, and most people wouldn't notice... in fact, I wish I couldn't notice :(

Have Microsoft commented on this problem yet? Can they see the problem and more importantly, is it fixable....?

I bought a Toshiba HD-A1 yesterday for really, really cheap. However, I may end up returning it.

It turns out it also has audio lag issues, at least on Batman Begins and Mission Impossible: III. The lag is decreased by using analogue outputs, but is still present. OTOH, some movies like Casablanca seem fine on both the 360 and the HD-A1. (I only watched a few scenes of Casablanca though.) I wonder how much of this is due to the way the discs were authored. Or could it be the bitrate of the audio tracks? Aren't most Warner DD+ tracks only 640 Kbps?

The sound quality of the HD-A1 is noticeably better though. Or at least there seems to be more emphasis on some aspects of its DTS output that seems to be missing on the 360's DD5.1 output. (Unfortunately, the HD-A1 feels slow as molasses compared the 360. Loading discs takes forever.)

All of these issues makes me feel like an early adopter. Oh wait... I am. :p Just once, I wish the early stuff would get released without major issues like this. Well, there is that RCA DVD player I bought way back in 1998 that has functioned perfectly ever since then. No audio sync issues at all with that player. ;)

In defence of the 360 HD DVD add-on drive though, it feels more polished overall than the HD-A1. The HD-A1 doesn't even really feel like an early adopter machine. It feels almost like a prototype, given its extremely slow speed.

I bought the add-on last night and the KK audio seems to be fine. I also tested TLS and it seemed ok. Has anyone noticed any problems with TLS? And what scene if so.

I bought a Toshiba HD-A1 yesterday for really, really cheap. However, I may end up returning it.

It turns out it also has audio lag issues, at least on Batman Begins and Mission Impossible: III. The lag is decreased by using analogue outputs, but is still present.


Well there ya go...clearly it is a disk issue. Setups probably lessen or make worse the issue....but if you get it on the A1...then we cannot attack the XBOX add on.


Like I said previously, for me...the hammer is the only scene that is an issue for me.

Well, I watched Swordfish today.

The sync in the movie was fine, but the sync went off in the "In Conversation" extra. For example when Halle Berry was speaking around 3 minute mark and also when Hugh Jackman was speaking immediately afterwards, the audio lagged a bit.

alot of films i have watched are out of sync, batman begins, out of sight and superman returns, but waterworld and 12 monkeys seemed in sync all the way through so it might be the discs themselves. i'm using the xbox 360 hd dvd drive

There is a slight lag on the Chronicles of Riddick intro by David Twohy, but the movie itself seems fine.

Edit:

Nope. Slight loss of sync in the movie too, slightly noticeable at around the 1:15 mark

On the 360 addon, Batman Begins seemed the slightest bit out of sync with the DD+ track. It was very noticably out of sync with the TrueHd track.

I had no issues with either Superman's DD+ track and Superman Returns' True HD track. It seemed part of Superman 2 went out of sync on me, but it fixed itself.

Edit - I should also note that I'm using a CRT-tube HDTV.

I will be very interested to hear what the results are with the Toshiba HD-A2.

I've had similar lag issues on some discs with both the Xbox 360 HD DVD and the Toshiba HD-A1. If the Toshiba HD-A2 has the same issues, then we probably should blame the discs, and the studios should provide us with replacements. Anyone have the contact info for Warner Home Video (esp. in Canada)? I am having a hard time finding it. Here is Universal's contact info (http://corpinfo.universalstudios.com/faqs.asp?section=HV), but I think it'd be best to contact Warner first about Batman Begins, since that's the one people have the most consistent problems with so far it seems.

If the Toshiba HD-A2 does not have the same issues, then we should probably blame the 360 HD DVD drive and HD-A1, or at least some combo of those with the discs. If that turns out to be the case, I may return my 360 HD DVD drive. I have until January to do so.

There is a slight lag on the Chronicles of Riddick intro by David Twohy, but the movie itself seems fine.

Edit:

Nope. Slight loss of sync in the movie too, slightly noticeable at around the 1:15 mark

I watched it also on saturday. Noticed some slight off sync, but probably it was due to the added scenes.

But what was most noticable, was the bad decoding of the DD+ by the 360. The sound was very flat and without any dynamic. Subwoofer usage was very good, but sound in general was boring due to the missing dynamics. Changing to the DTS Track improved a lot. But the 360 surely needs an update on the decoding.

Just what's so hard about audio sync on HD DVD anyway? Does the decoding/re-encoding step screw everything up? You'd think that audio sync would one of the first things the software/hardware makers would want to get right. I mean it's been done right on DVD for quite some time now (and on laserdisc before that).

Does Blu-ray suffer from audio sync issues at all?

Got Cream at the Royal Albert Hall tonight and noticed a slight sync problem using the default audio setting (all it says it Stereo) About 1/2 way through now, I brought up the menu and changed it to DTS, didn't really notice any change in sound but it appears to be in sync now - wierd

According to this post (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9088597&&#post9088597), quoting Amir (the Microsoft VP):

will the 360 hddvd drive dts update output the downmixed DD+ and TRUEHD signal to a 1.5 mbps DTS signal?

Yes.


will it address the slight audio lag associated with truehd?

That is a bug that we are chasing and will fix regardless of DTS feature above.


and most importantly, when will we it be available?

I don't have a schedule yet. But I am hoping it is within the next 3 months.

crossposted!

Got a question about the drive.

I have one and am pretty satisfied with it. But there seems to be some audio syncing issues. It really looks/sounds like the audio is late by a little bit. It's better with some movies (riddick) and worst with Batman Begins. It almost doesn't look like they're speaking in english (gojira!).

I have a 30" samsung CRT, and my 360 is set to the tv's native res of 1080i. I also have a samsung HTiB, that's connected to the 360 through the optical port.



So I guess I'm just echoing you guys. It seems there is some slight lag, no matter what I watch. But with BB it's terrible.

If any of you with the lag problem on either the Toshiba HD-A1 or 360 HD DVD drive end up getting an HD-A2, please be sure to report your results with the Toshiba HD-A2 too.

If the A2 also suffers from this issue, then it's probably mainly the discs themselves that are the problem. If the A2 does not suffer from this issue, then it's likely mainly our 360 and HD-A1 players.

I am a video editor and I can tell sync issues, no question that KK in HVD has sync issues.
It's not the display and because it seems to change movie to movie i think it might be the media.
I looked at a standard disk Gladiator and its fine, KK HD is out, audio ahead looks like 2-3 frames, Apollo 13 HD, hard to tell , but might be a frame or two.
There are issues, no doubt

There is audio lag with "serenity" hd-dvd playing on my xbox 360 hd-dvd add-on.
This problem needs to be addressed because list of affected titles keeps growing!
when the dust settles on the audio lag issue either the add-on or the entire hd-dvd platform is going to lose credibility.

There is audio lag with "serenity" hd-dvd playing on my xbox 360 hd-dvd add-on.
This problem needs to be addressed because list of affected titles keeps growing!
when the dust settles on the audio lag issue either the add-on or the entire hd-dvd platform is going to lose credibility.

Do you have a specific place in the movie where you found such a noticeable audio lag. The more specific the info, the better I can help with it.

Thanks.

Sorry, i returned "serenity" and thus cannot specify where exactly lip sync was most obviously off. I can tell you that it was not limited to a single scene. I noticed about 2/3 into the movie if that helps.

a post on forums.xbox.com states:
There one part in Scene 6 in Serenity where it zooms in on a character's lips, and she slowly says, "Miranda"... Her lips move before you can hear the audio.




Do you have a specific place in the movie where you found such a noticeable audio lag. The more specific the info, the better I can help with it.

Thanks.

On Jarhead the lag is there, but very slight, perhaps a few frames.

Great movie though by the way, and beautifully shot.

Do you have a specific place in the movie where you found such a noticeable audio lag. The more specific the info, the better I can help with it.

Thanks.

Yet another hd-dvd has audio sync (lag)...."Excalibur"
Noticeable from the beginning. rather subtle though.

Has anyone who has noticed lag on their 360 setup tested the Toshiba HD-A2?

I noticed some sync problems with Dune. However, it corrected itself later on in the movie. I wonder if the sync problems at the beginning were because I was skipping around a bit at the beginning.

Also, there is weird pulsing in one of the ship shots near the beginning, but I think that is in all/most versions of the release.

P.S. Some great scenes, and lots of cheesiness. Overall I enjoyed the movie (again), but at times it felt like I was watching Eraserhead all over again. Despite the fact that Lynch washed his hands of this movie, it definitely has the Lynch stamp on it.

jesus, i thought i posted here. guess not, only voted in the poll. i only have two hd dvd's. 'king kong' and 'we were soldiers'. i'll tell you what, i love 'we were soldiers' immensely, but the lag is almost unbearable! i've been in denial of the issue, well, actually just very defensive of the add-on. but with the audio lag and the 'flat' sound, i'm on the verge of returning it to circuit city. maybe m$ will resolve issues, but what if they don't? i don't want this add-on. and if it is indeed the media, they'd better get with the program or the biggest sony hater in the world may just become the newest bluray fanboy. i hope the latter will not be the case! c'mon bill gates, you're making our name look bad!

I don't have the 360 addon, but I do have the Toshiba HD-A2. I have carefully examined Batman over and over again and have noticed no lag whatsoever. I've got it running via HDMI to my Denon 2307CI and the problem doesn't occur on TrueHD, I haven't tested DD+ because I honestly don't care, my system processes TrueHD so that's what I'm going to use.

I had the add on and never noticed any audio lag. I have the A2 and notice no audio lag.

straight up, just got done watching 'sleepy hollow' on hd dvd and the lip synch is pronounced. seriously has me pissed. it's not enjoyable at all. i actually had to tell my girl to focus on the characters' eyes and don't look at their lips as they speak. that is complete and utter ********t. but i'm afraid to return the drive as i got a sweet deal on it, just in case they fix the issue. but again, what if they do not? i've got like one week left to decide what to do before i cannot return the unit to circuit city. very, extremely upset, am i.

The audio lag is real. I am very very picky when it comes to audio and video desync due to having huge issues with my HL-R6178W. I had to push all of my audio ~ 100ms to 120ms with a Felston device to sync the video & audio on that TV. That TV was known to have lag issues. When watching normal DVD's on the 360, I also had to push the audio. When I watch HD-DVD's I do not. I purchased a new 73" Mitsu WD-73831 and this TV has zero lag. I was able to turn off my felston and everything works perfectly (PS3, Series 3 Tivo, Denon DVD, xbox 360 on normal DVD's), but now with the HD-DVD's, I see the inverted issue posters above see. The audio actually lags the video a hair. This is on all HD-DVD's for me. I'm watching MI-3 and see it, its only a DD Plus, not TrueHD. I can also see it on my Batman Returns dvd.

I hope MS addresses this.

yup, went to return my first unit on my 30th day to circuit city. i hadn't planned on getting another one until m$ fixed the issue. but the clerk told me to just try another one, 'just in case' i had a bad unit. it also extended my return period another 30 days. i figured perhaps the sync 'may' be fixed by then and also i wouldn't have to be without the drive until they do. but having one or not probably wouldn't matter because i can't stand watching dvd's out of sync even if i had this add-on for free.

so i got a new one anyway. and i hooked it back up with great anticipation and suspense! popped in my we were soldiers hd dvd and BAAM! booyahkashah! same ********t. audio sync issue still persistent. but i've got 30 more days to see if it'll be corrected or see what i wanna do after CES and all their new product announcements.

The only HD-DVD content I've seen played back on an Xbox 360 was King Kong at Circuit City, and that was only a few minutes. But there was definitely a problem with the audio sync... and also jerky panning.

in its defense, the jerky panning was probably due to their display or connection. my rptv didn't suffer from that problem.

I was watching MI:3 on my WD-73831 via component at 1080i. The credits were horridly jerky. When I switched the 360 to 720p, the credits looked correct. Does anyone know why the 1080p choice on the xbox 360 does not work via component? My WD-73831 shows that its in 1080p mode, but i see a solid line across the screen and nothing else.

Is there any recent news as to what Microsoft is doing to fix the sync issue. Has anyone been able to contact them to see if this problem is being addressed?

Is there any recent news as to what Microsoft is doing to fix the sync issue. Has anyone been able to contact them to see if this problem is being addressed?
Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be any update on the status of this so far. :( I asked (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9463189&&#post9463189) in the Insider thread, but didn't get a response.

I do know this was being looked into though, as some MS guys asked me last year for a list of discs that this was an issue with. I gave them that and as much info as I could provide about those discs, and pointed them to this thread and the thread (http://forums.xbox.com/8535355/ShowPost.aspx) over at the MS sponsored Xbox 360 forum. (BTW, that thread was started by someone independently, which illustrates that it's not just a problem we AVSers notice.)

I get the delay with BB. I watched a few mins of poseidon last night, and whilst there doesn't seem to be a delay, I do get some crackly distortion out of it every so often. Shame really, as it sounds so much better than the DD+ track :(

Amir Majidimehr (http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/exec/amirm/default.mspx)'s comments on the Xbox 360 HD DVD lip sync issue are here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9515103&&#post9515103):

1.) Dolby TrueHD streams aren't synced properly. The sound is lagging a good 50ms.Yes, this is a known problem and is being looked at (I reported on it a while back).
So, no comments as to if and when this can be fixed, but at least we know that they still acknowledge the problem and are working on it.

How about the DTS update?

Amir Majidimehr (http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/exec/amirm/default.mspx)'s comments on the Xbox 360 HD DVD lip sync issue are here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9515103&&#post9515103):

So, no comments as to if and when this can be fixed, but at least we know that they still acknowledge the problem and are working on it.
He further explains the issue here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9518764&&#post9518764):
We have indeed analyzed sync issues on multiple players. And problems exist in all the players we tested including BD. My Panasonic BD player for example, gets out of sync in some scenes and if you go back over them, sometimes they are in sync again (or better) or not.

Here is the dark secret here. With audio/video encoded separately and them "multiplexed together", a lot of black art goes into getting the two to match at playback time due to variations in decoder clocks, bugs in buffer management (both encode and decode), etc. When these anomalies occur, the player attempts to slow down or speed up one stream to catch. I suspect over time this situation gets better but for now, one cannot expect to see broadcast quality sync between audio/video in either format.

Having said all of this, we are trying to make things better in 360. But as I type this, I am still waiting on verification of which release contains such fixes.


How about the DTS update?
Check out this post (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9518240&&#post9518240).

So as of now the HD dvd add on is pretty much a waste of money because of the audio delay right?

i don't know, ask the 124 persons/70.86% in favor of it with no issues...and a few of us still teetering upon returning/selling vs. keeping it. right now, i still can return mine and get a standalone. but i'm willing to wait a few more weeks to see what happens. probably eventually return mine, though.

So as of now the HD dvd add on is pretty much a waste of money because of the audio delay right?


I only get it with THD tracks, all others are fine.

So as of now the HD dvd add on is pretty much a waste of money because of the audio delay right?

If you really care about sound quality, the HD-DVD add-on is currently broken. If you don't have sync issues, there are also problems with Dolby Digital Plus being compressed (meaning very little difference between loud and soft). Supposedly they are going to patch these issues eventually.

So is it a waste of money? It's up to you whether the great picture quality is worth putting up with the sound glitches.

I only get it with THD tracks, all others are fine.
I get audio delay w/ KK which I beleive is not THD, only DD+. Anyone else? I get audio delay w/ THD on BB, but no delay w/ DD+. Go figure!

BuGsArEtAsTy,

Any updates on when the DTS update for the add on is going to be released? I think it's time to ping Amir again for a status.

Thanks for the info, was on the fence about the add on but figure I'll just pick up the HD-A2 since aduio is really important to me.

People are reporting Fearless as another one.

So, just a few mentioned in this thread with lip sync problems:

Apollo 13
Batman Begins
Chronicles of Riddick
Constantine
Dune
Excalibur
Fearless
Grand Prix
Jarhead
King Kong
The Lakehouse
Mission Impossible: III
Out Of Sight
Phantom Of The Opera
Pitch Black
Serenity
Sleepy Hollow
Superman 2
Superman Returns
Swordfish (in the extras)
Terminator 3
V For Vendetta
We Were Soldiers

BTW, out of 180 voters, now exactly 70% are reporting no problems, and exactly 25% are reporting problems, with another 5% reporting "other". So basically, 1/4 to 1/3 of all voters here are having noticeable audio sync issues. This is terrible.

If it weren't for this major issue, I'd own more HD DVDs.


So as of now the HD dvd add on is pretty much a waste of money because of the audio delay right?
It's up to you of course, since some people are less sensitive than others to audio sync issues. However, I personally tell anyone who asks NOT to buy the 360 HD DVD player.


Thanks for the info, was on the fence about the add on but figure I'll just pick up the HD-A2 since aduio is really important to me.
Some people have reported audio sync issues with the Toshibas as well.


BuGsArEtAsTy,

Any updates on when the DTS update for the add on is going to be released? I think it's time to ping Amir again for a status.
He says "weeks", whatever that means.

Picked up the HD DVD drive for $160.

That said, I am dissapointed in it.

The audio overall is very weak and not very dynamic. There is an issue with it for sure and I am not just referring to lag.

I compared a couple of titles on my HD-A1 to the 360 player. The audio is a lot more "in your face" with the HD-A1.

It just seems like the 360 audio is lacking. I will double check my settings but am pretty sure it's just the 360 HD player.

I will also note that the video is better on the HD-A1 too.

So, if you have not bought one yet, spend a little more and get the HDA2 for under $400 shipped now.

Hopefully the audio issues will be resolved at some point.

You can view my set up by clicking my name.

Maybe the problem is with your other equipment?

I have no audio sync issues @ all with True HD (watched both Batman Begins and Superman Returns).

I have an RXV2500... maybe if you have a lower end receiver (MSRP < $500) that might be part of the cause? Either that or must be a large batch of bad drives, bummer.

Maybe the problem is with your other equipment?

I have no audio sync issues @ all with True HD (watched both Batman Begins and Superman Returns).

I have an RXV2500... maybe if you have a lower end receiver (MSRP < $500) that might be part of the cause? Just a suggestion.

The 360 decodes the TrueHD and sends it as regular old dolby digital. The receiver would have nothing to do with it.

eh, unless it's fixed by this weekend, mine is going back again. as it stands right now, i feel this add-on is only suited for those whom listen to soundtracks via television speakers or home theater in a box.

I have had problems on a few movies, but it is not consistent. In fact in some movies it actually fixed itself after a while.

I don't think it is a low end receiver problem. My receiver is a Pioneer VSX-84TXi.

I hate the low audio issues. I put in Casablanca last night and had to crank my receiver to hear anything. After that I put in Mummy Returns and darn near blew my speakers. The audio is wildly inconsistent with these discs.

The 360 decodes the TrueHD and sends it as regular old dolby digital. The receiver would have nothing to do with it.
Actually, that's not true. It's not "regular old Dolby Digital" per se that's being sent to the receivers via HD-DVD--it's a maximum 640 kbps Dolby Digital! "Regular" DD (via DVD, LD, or OTA HD broadcast) is 384 kbps to 448 kbps. It has been reported that some older receivers have problems decoding DD above 448. So it is possible that a given receiver could be at fault notwithstanding any issues with the 360 add on itself.

Actually, that's not true. It's not "regular old Dolby Digital" per se that's being sent to the receivers via HD-DVD--it's a maximum 640 kbps Dolby Digital! "Regular" DD (via DVD, LD, or OTA HD broadcast) is 384 kbps to 448 kbps. It has been reported that some older receivers have problems decoding DD above 448. So it is possible that a given receiver could be at fault notwithstanding any issues with the 360 add on itself.

That's interesting. Maybe we should start a thread listing which receivers have this problem (unless one already exists?). I have a Denon 3805, not exactly old or cheap, so I'd be surprised if that was the problem.

i have a harman/kardon avr-7300.

Just with Batman Begins.

'm currently using a cheap Sony HT-DDW700 HTIB and a Samsung 4696 LCD. Any suggestions on which receiver i should get that doesn't have the lag issue?

I have had mixed results with THD lip-synch. I don't own many HDVDs (and I haven't tried King Kong yet) so the only title I experienced this with is Batman Begins.

I switched to THD just after the movie started, and didn't notice any problem with lip-synch. At one point I stopped the movie and when it resumed there was very noticeable audio lag. I then skipped back to the start of the chapter, and the audio synched up again.

I was playing the movie on a Sony KDS-R60XBR1, which has some audio lag which I compensate for by putting a 30ms delay on my Yamaha RX-V995.

I won't vote in the poll until I've watched some more HDVDs.

I have had mixed results with THD lip-synch. I don't own many HDVDs (and I haven't tried King Kong yet) so the only title I experienced this with is Batman Begins.

I switched to THD just after the movie started, and didn't notice any problem with lip-synch. At one point I stopped the movie and when it resumed there was very noticeable audio lag. I then skipped back to the start of the chapter, and the audio synched up again.
Yes, I've experienced this too, for example with Mission Impossible: III. However, it seems for me that this is actually the lesser problem in a way. Sometimes the sound goes way off sync, but when it is not way off sync, it still may be very slightly but persistently off sync, depending on the title. (This is not true for all titles. For exxample, Casablanca is perfectly synced, but it's just a mono title.) However, for the latter slight sync problem, the problem is small enough that some people may not notice it, especially on some home theatre setups (where there might be slight video lag inherent to the TV).

I was playing the movie on a Sony KDS-R60XBR1, which has some audio lag which I compensate for by putting a 30ms delay on my Yamaha RX-V995.
That is video lag. The compensation by your Yamaha is to ADD a delay in the audio to compensate.

The problem with the Xbox 360 HD DVD setup is that we start off with audio lag. Adding delay with your Yamaha would just make things worse. Unfortunately, there is no easy way to add compensatory video delay for movies.

So, as of today, there exactly 200 voters:

52 people (26%) report audio lag issues (18 TrueHD, 8 DD+, 26 both)
10 people (5%) report "other"
138 people (69%) report no audio lag issues

Amir claims the lip sync issues have been fixed. (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10231073&&#post10231073) :eek: (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10231073&&#post10231073)

Let me say that we have fixed all the lip sync issues reported. So there should be no concerns about that in general.

Hmmm... I guess I missed it the first time he posted (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10176889&&#post10176889) this (last week).

The spring HD DVD software update will fix all the lip sync issues that have been reported/we know of.
Lookin' good...

The latest: We have said that the update will come in "early to mid-spring" and we are tracking to that.

The wait continues... Perhaps by mid to late May...

The latest: We have said that the update will come in "early to mid-spring" and we are tracking to that.

The wait continues... Perhaps by mid to late May...Did he say what year? That update has been ready for quite awhile now but has not been pushed out yet. *sigh*

Did he say what year? That update has been ready for quite awhile now but has not been pushed out yet. *sigh*
He hints it's supposed to come out before The Matrix, which comes out May. 22.

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I just my copy of Fearless today. This disc is especially good for testing, since it's a combo.

The DVD side played through the Xbox 360 is perfectly sync'd. The HD DVD side is not. :(

One example starts at about 1 minute 34 seconds into the HD DVD. (It's around 1'45" on the DVD.) The drumming is out of sync by a split second on the HD DVD. It's just like the Batman Begins hammer scene.

We'll see if this get fixed with the (late?) May HD DVD update, but somehow I'm not optimistic this slight sync issue with these discs is gonna get fixed. I betcha they'll fix the big sync issues where discs go wacky and completely out of sync, but this slight but constant sync issue seems to be a different kettle of fish.

So, as of today, there exactly 200 voters:

52 people (26%) report audio lag issues (18 TrueHD, 8 DD+, 26 both)
10 people (5%) report "other"
138 people (69%) report no audio lag issues
That's as insightful as saying its not raining in 69% of the US, because we don't know what day (what DVDs they've watched) or where they are located (what audio playback [analog/digital] they're using)!

That's as insightful as saying its not raining in 69% of the US, because we don't know what day (what DVDs they've watched) or where they are located (what audio playback [analog/digital] they're using)!
The point was that at least 1/4 of voters did have a sync problem. That's pretty significant for the Xbox 360 HD DVD.

With (SD) DVD players today (and properly encoded discs), I suspect the number would be < 1/100.

Hellfire writes: (http://forums.xbox.com/ShowPost.aspx?PageIndex=5&PostID=12105913)

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we found a pretty systemic issue that caused everything to go off by a little bit. some tracks, like batman's truehd, were encoded slightly off to begin with (i.e. they weren't in sync with the DD+ track), and that, coupled with the delay we added, pushed it into the realm of noticeability for some discs.

btw, to the earlier poster: i just watched total recall recently on the new player code and didn't see any lip sync issues, so it'll be fixed when we ship real soon.

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This is encouraging in that it suggests that the more subtle DD+ sync issues I've complained about may in fact be corrected.

coupled with the delay we added, pushed it into the realm of noticeability for some discs.
Has this "added delay" ever been mentioned before?

Has this "added delay" ever been mentioned before?
I don't know if they did it on purpose. In fact I'm not sure if he's talking about the same "systemic" problem.

I don't know if they did it on purpose. In fact I'm not sure if he's talking about the same "systemic" problem.
Update: (http://forums.xbox.com/ShowPost.aspx?PageIndex=6&PostID=12138067)

right, the delay we inadvertently added is the systemic a/v sync issue i spoke of.

all a/v sync issues i know of have been fixed, or more accurately, fixed enough into the realm of unnoticeability (by our measurements, it turns out the toshiba player also was a bit late with audio, but no one ever noticed. we're now more accurate than the toshibas, AFAWCT).

batman begins problem - this is just how this particular trueHD track was mastered (it was barely off)
For the record, I did have sync issues with my Toshiba HD-A1 as well. ie. At least some of us noticed. ;)

Video of 360 HD DVD audio lag issue (http://www.eugbanana.com/files/Movies/360AudioSync-480.mov) - 3 scenes from 2 HD DVDs demonstrating the problem.

(Quicktime H.264 800 Kbps, 30 sec, 3 MB - Sorry for the poor quality.)

These are with Dolby Digital Plus tracks. This should be corrected next week, if all goes well.

So I 've got the new update..and I'm just hoping that the HD-DVD update is a completely seperate update because I'm still getting sync issues. Anyone else?

Thanks Microsoft!

The Dolby Digital audio dynamics is fixed with the HD DVD Update today.

http://www.eugbanana.com/files/Movies/DD_Dynamics_Fix-513.jpg

The audio sync is ALMOST fixed. It's way, way better than before, but not 100% perfect sync. However, it's close enough for the time being, and I betcha most people would not notice it, esp. if they have any lag at all in their TVs.

To test this, check out the Fearless HD DVD combo disc: HD DVD side vs. the DVD side. On the HD DVD side there is drumming at 1 min 31 s. Before, this was way out of sync. Now it's almost perfectly sync'd, but not as perfect as the DVD side.

Thanks Microsoft!

The Dolby Digital audio dynamics is fixed with the HD DVD Update today.

http://www.eugbanana.com/files/Movies/DD_Dynamics_Fix-513.jpg

The audio sync is ALMOST fixed. It's way, way better than before, but not 100% perfect sync. However, it's close enough for the time being, and I betcha most people would not notice it, esp. if they have any lag at all in their TVs.

To test this, check out the Fearless HD DVD combo disc: HD DVD side vs. the DVD side. On the HD DVD side there is drumming at 1 min 31 s. Before, this was way out of sync. Now it's almost perfectly sync'd, but not as perfect as the DVD side.
This could be an authoring issue. I wonder.

Hellfire360 claims (http://forums.xbox.com/6/12471268/ShowPost.aspx#12456308) that the audio now actually precedes the video by 8-16 ms (although I'm not sure with which titles).

Hellfire360 claims that the audio now actually precedes the video by 8-16 ms (although I'm not sure with which titles).
At least AVRs can compensate for early, unlike lag.

:( The audio on the 360 with The Matrix is also out of sync. :(

This is after the HD DVD update. Microsoft said they had tested The Matrix, but I guess this was overlooked.

I dunno if it's a disc issue or a player issue, but apparently it's also a problem with Toshiba standalones (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=852298).

:( The audio on the 360 with The Matrix is also out of sync. :(

This is after the HD DVD update. Microsoft said they had tested The Matrix, but I guess this was overlooked.

I dunno if it's a disc issue or a player issue, but apparently it's also a problem with Toshiba standalones (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=852298).
The entire movie is out of sync, but it's very, very mild. If the TV has any lag at all then it won't be noticed.

It's hard to see in many of the scenes because a lot of them don't focus in on the actors' lips during dialogue. However, in those that do it's noticeable enough on some systems (including mine, which is a CRT HDTV and 360) it's enough to be distracting. The lips move a split second before the audio.

One example is at 10:50 when Trinity says "They're watching you Neo".

This thread seems to have been dead for a while now, but I thought I would see if anyone has experience with what I am seeing. I have the 360 plugged into my computer's Creative Audigy2 soundcard over optical S/PDIF. When playing HD-DVDs, there is a very noticable audio delay (maybe 1/8-1/4 s) on Dolby Digital 5.1 output. If I switch the output mode to Dolby Stereo, the is no delay, and there is no issue with the RCA audio cables either, but of course this defeats the point of having a 5.1 surround setup. I have the component cable plugged directly into a projector for video output.

I would like to be able to test this with a real receiver, but since I am a college student, my budget kind of restricts that... Does anyone else have experience with a similar setup and getting it working, or am I out of luck? Also, one weird thing I have found is that switching the output to DTS and back to DD 5.1 makes there be a huge delay (as in 2-3s). While I suspect the computer to be the problem in general, the xbox is definitely doing something there.

So far I have tested: Serenity, King Kong

I was browsing around trying to see if I was the only one with sync issues with the toshiba add on for the Xbox360. I thought I would be relieved to find out I wasn't alone but in actuality it just makes me that much more frustrated :( I have tested Miami Vice, Knocked Up and 300 ALL with the same issues of lag in the audio/video. My Sanyo 30in CRT didn't seem to have the problem that I noticed however when I switched to a Samsung 1080p LN-T4071 it made me want to throw the darn thing out the window it was so horrible. I have the most current update and have the audio settings on the dolby 5.1 connected through the optical port on the 360 to the TV itself. I have tried without the optical and still have the same issue if not worse than with the optical.

Battlestar Galactica Season 1 Disk 2 - second half of the mini-series.

Severe lip sync problem for over a minute, best seen/heard at the 55 minute and 37 second mark.

Tested with the Toshiba HD-A2 and the 360.