"Cine4home writes that at about 6500k on/off is 15,200 while at about 8000k it's 18,300. Given that, wouldn't it be expected ANSI would jump from 260 to about 313 at 8000k?"

I wouldn't expect much change in ANSI.

Upping color temp can increase on/off CR because B/G drives are increased at the high end w/o increasing light leakage at the low end.

But ANSI is determined by % scattered light, which will stay substantially the same once you get past the low end.

"Not to sound ignorant. But what does lumen output have to do with color temperature?"

See above.

Not to sound ignorant. But what does lumen output have to do with color temperature? By making a higher color temperature all you're doing is making the light bluer. The human eye can't distinguish blue as well as green and less is red. By pushing blue, it seems possible to increase contrast, just like Cine4home stated? I know its possible to mess with blue with CRT projectors for instance, which done properly will increase sharpness.

Increasing greyscale would also increase contrast?It is the mix of RGB that affects the lumen level. If you max out on green then bring red and blue up to the desired color temp, a temp with more red and blue will be brighter. With video displays we are constantly dealing with limits of one color or another. With the CRT, Blue was the limiting factor and a slight defocus of blue would add more blue to the screen.

Why would you want to change/increase the grayscale when the material is mastered for D65? Color accuracy is just as much part of the whole picture as resolution, black-levels, contrast ratios, etc.

Why would you want to change/increase the grayscale when the material is mastered for D65? Color accuracy is just as much part of the whole picture as resolution, black-levels, contrast ratios, etc.
I agree. The difference between 15K:1 CR and 18K:1 CR is probably not noticable. You are a real CR glutton :) if you are willing to throw away color accuracy for that.

Glenn

Sorry to read about your disability reio-ta. I wish you the best and I hope that everything turns out well for you.

If you can avoid ceiling mounting with the DaLite HP do so. There's a big pool of light on my ceiling. It's still a great screen for my home, but it's brighter when I stand up :)

Thanks, I hope so too. I hope none of you ever have to go through what I do. Changes how you view things in life. From the little things to everyone else, like a TV is just a TV. When your options in life for what you can do for fun become more limited, your perspective is very different.

This is the beauty of being a home theater enthusiast. You will never know everything about the JVC RS1, there is a wealth of information, and technology always changes. A great hobby indeed! :o

Did a search on froogle for the RS1. The only thing that came up was for a bulb from presentationmart.com. It was $270. If legit, that's a good price for a bulb.

Thanks, I hope so too. I hope none of you ever have to go through what I do. Changes how you view things in life. From the little things to everyone else, like a TV is just a TV. When your options in life for what you can do for fun become more limited, your perspective is very different.

Anyway, I was informed how a screen such as the Da-lite High Power can really work wonders, especially with a LCOS. I read Tyrg's review of the Vutec Silverstar but the Da-lite looks even better since it'll only be my wife and I. By my calculations, the HP should look great with a 106". ~59 Ftl by my calculations, thats with full 700 lumens. I can't wait for some reviews from people here state side and opinions about how it looks on either a HP or SS. I read the opinions on the UK site. Although all theirs have been how great the PJ is on smaller screens seeming as though the UK has smaller dwellings than us here. Thats the first time I've heard of a Japanese product making it to the UK first.

it's the dalite 2.8 gain right ? what retail prices are we talking about ?
for 100 and 120" ?

prices can be found for quite a bit lower. give avs a call

Did a search on froogle for the RS1. The only thing that came up was for a bulb from presentationmart.com. It was $270. If legit, that's a good price for a bulb.

Yeah if that is the true price then that is great! Paying 270 every few years would be no problem at all.

JVC is the only manufacturer to state an exact number and you have to reset the lamp timer. Will you only get not as crisp colors and yellowing or will the bulb blow up, ruining the PJ?Generally they just continue to loose brightness, there could be a slight color shift, then at some time the go out.

What's the current word on the RS1's ability to accept film cadence 1080i/60 and correctly display it as 1080p at some multiple of 24? Since there doesn't seem to be a good DVD or HD-DVD player that can output 24Hz, this is what I'm having to figure out.

Edit: And film 480i/60, for that matter.

What's the current word on the RS1's ability to accept film cadence 1080i/60 and correctly display it as 1080p at some multiple of 24? Since there doesn't seem to be a good DVD or HD-DVD player that can output 24Hz, this is what I'm having to figure out.

Edit: And film 480i/60, for that matter.

Last I heard it doesn't support it, which isn't too surprising as only a few dedicated VP's support it.

That's sort of surprising. And of course disappointing. What does the Gennum do, then, exactly? Just deinterlacing of broadcast video?

Am I foolishly mistaken in assuming that the RS1 will at least accept and properly display 24Hz video?

That's sort of surprising. And of course disappointing. What does the Gennum do, then, exactly? Just deinterlacing of broadcast video?

Am I foolishly mistaken in assuming that the RS1 will at least accept and properly display 24Hz video?

It will accept 1080p24 but last I heard it won't do the 1080p60->1080p24 conversion for film sources.

The Gennum inside the HD1/RS1 frame doubles 1080p24 to 1080p48 and this is displayed internally at 96Hz. I was told this by the HD1 chief designer personally.

I can also confirm that 1080i60 is deinterlaced to 1080p60 and displayed internally (with 3:2 progressive frame cadence) at 120Hz.

Don't know how many times I've had to post this... :rolleyes:

Alright. So I guess a lingering question would have to be.. what does the future hold for getting DVD-sourced movies displayed as 24 (or multiple) fps with this projector? A DVD player that can output 24Hz? Some $3k+ processor that probably introduces palpable latency (and probably featuring a practically redundant Gennum)?

Sorry if this seems a little cynical, but really, the Gennum can perform this sort of conversion so it's a complete mystery why the option was skipped in the RS1's case.

A quick look at all the VPs gives you a good answer to why JVC (or other PJ chip-implementors) don't implement all these things. i.e. They play it safe and with good reason imo - people who buy high end VPs know that it takes time to get everything ironed out and accept the trade-off. PJ customers expect it to be like a TV.
Getting the basics right has to be their priority.
Even though the Gennum chip can do all these things, it doesn't mean it's available without huge effort.
Many of the features used commonly by PJ manufacturers will be included in their entirety from Gennum. The rest they have to figure out.
Lets face it this is only the second generation of 1080p projectors and prices are tumbling at the same time. We now have great Black levels, great contrast, great HD deinterlacing and great scaling - i'd say we've come a long way.

If you absolutely must avoid 3:2 judder (I personally consider it a must now that I've had smooth pans for 5 years) will need a dvd/HD DVD/BRD player which will output 24hz. But you're still going to have to watch all your favourite TV shows with judder unless you get a VP.

Or if you're an HTPC person, naturally.

Or if you're an HTPC person, naturally.
Good point - in the UK we can't get our main satellite TV stations into a PC (SKY are really over-protective). But in the US it seems much more open. I must admit, I haven't researched the state of HD UK terrestrial tv for a few months. Maybe we can get that into a PC now.

Personally I wouldn't get another HTPC until I could be sure of playing both BRD and HD-DVD on it through an application as good as TheaterTek - it was TT which made my first 4 years of Home Theater ownership such a pleasure.

Or if you're an HTPC person, naturally.Indeed. A PC would tackle the 24Hz problem handily. But in my case it is not an option, because I have to make this system as user-friendly as possible (it's for my parents). Besides, let's face it: A PC is always a hassle, and I've personally never experienced completely, utterly smooth and faultless playback on a PC - something which anyone buying a $100 DVD player is within rights to expect.

What continues to astonish me is the apparent persistence of DVD players in lacking a 24/48/72Hz output option, even the high end and wildly expensive models whose benefits over a $30 model would be barely tangible to most.

Pie in the sky? Something like the new LG player which accepts BD and HD, but with 24Hz out, for both BD and HD, as well as 480p/24 or 1080p/24 for DVDs. But as it stands, I can't even buy separates to accomplish the same thing, and only some BD models offer 24Hz at all. (Or so it appears.) No clue, even, whether any such options are going to be available for regular DVDs. (HD-DVD will get their 24Hz soon, at least.)

Alright. So I guess a lingering question would have to be.. what does the future hold for getting DVD-sourced movies displayed as 24 (or multiple) fps with this projector? A DVD player that can output 24Hz? Some $3k+ processor that probably introduces palpable latency (and probably featuring a practically redundant Gennum)?

Sorry if this seems a little cynical, but really, the Gennum can perform this sort of conversion so it's a complete mystery why the option was skipped in the RS1's case.
Are you asking about taking 480i60 from a DVD and converting it to 1080p24?

A quick look at all the VPs gives you a good answer to why JVC (or other PJ chip-implementors) don't implement all these things. i.e. They play it safe and with good reason imo - people who buy high end VPs know that it takes time to get everything ironed out and accept the trade-off. PJ customers expect it to be like a TV.
Getting the basics right has to be their priority.
Even though the Gennum chip can do all these things, it doesn't mean it's available without huge effort.
Many of the features used commonly by PJ manufacturers will be included in their entirety from Gennum. The rest they have to figure out.
Lets face it this is only the second generation of 1080p projectors and prices are tumbling at the same time. We now have great Black levels, great contrast, great HD deinterlacing and great scaling - i'd say we've come a long way.

If you absolutely must avoid 3:2 judder (I personally consider it a must now that I've had smooth pans for 5 years) will need a dvd/HD DVD/BRD player which will output 24hz. But you're still going to have to watch all your favourite TV shows with judder unless you get a VP.

I agree completely.

Anyone who doubts the above only needs to spend a few hours browsing the VP forum.

Did a search on froogle for the RS1. The only thing that came up was for a bulb from presentationmart.com. It was $270. If legit, that's a good price for a bulb.
I see a price of 233.00 delivered from a popular Japanese site. Have to do a search as it is not on the front page.

The Gennum inside the HD1/RS1 frame doubles 1080p24 to 1080p48 and this is displayed internally at 96Hz. I was told this by the HD1 chief designer personally.

I can also confirm that 1080i60 is deinterlaced to 1080p60 and displayed internally (with 3:2 progressive frame cadence) at 120Hz.

Don't know how many times I've had to post this... :rolleyes:

VirusKiller have you heard any updated info from JVC on adding 1080p60->1080p24 judder removal?

Are you asking about taking 480i60 from a DVD and converting it to 1080p24?Or 480p24. Either way. Scaling is nothing. Deinterlacing broadcast video is what's tough. By comparison, taking film-cadence video and producing 24Hz is child's play, even after taking into account mastering / flag issues.

reio-ta,

rgb with sync on green is pretty common and the rs1/hd1 manual states that is what it receives.

The rumored 100% QC check on this side of the pond is really going to happen. I met and spoke today with one of the gentlemen who will be doing it. Quite amazing. But they want to know what they are getting from the factory in this first run. Otherwise no changes other than they seemed more confident of the final lumen output. The particular RS1 was one of the two pre-production models in the U.S.. Very good vibes on support from JVC Pro...verses Consumer JVC; very important to them.

Back order is several hundred units. I think all the AVS orders will come with the first wave, although I didn't ask specifically...that's the feeling I got. It was confirmed that some others will get them, too, :) although the first run is quite limited. Otherwise it looks like a wait until sometime late March to early April to see the next wave.

Hi reio-ta, the cable you posted is a VGA 15pin to 3 RCAs cable for Component connection. It also works as a RG(s)B connection if both side support the format. It won't work with a real RGBHV signal though.

From the look of the RS1/HD1 input panel, since it has only RGBS connector, it won't support "native" RGBHV source. In some case you may be able to use a BNC T-join to combin the HV sync to a single S sync but result is not guaranteed.

regards,

Li On

What is the latest price status of this JVC-HD1/RS1 and availability?

I got an offer of $6,980 (Japanese version)???

What is the latest price status of this JVC-HD1/RS1 and availability?

I got an offer of $6,980 (Japanese version)???


List price (which we are only allowed to discuss on the forum) is $6295 for the RS1. Availability is supposedly the end of Feb. but, the HD1 is out now.

Talk to Jason at AVS. Even without the prebuy price it is still very attractive.

Talk to Jason at AVS. Even without the prebuy price it is still very attractive.
Won't it be "more attractive" a few months after all the pre- and back-orders are cleared? Pre-buy level or better?

Cam Man,

Thanks for the great news re QC and AVS Pre-orders!

If anyone else knew, they didn't say so here.

Cant blame them for not saying anything, Noah. Jason's been burned a few times with "possible maybes" and he probably didnt want to fly too close to the flame this time around. 8)

I wasn't, and I took it to mean someone amongst "us", not Jason.

Won't it be "more attractive" a few months after all the pre- and back-orders are cleared? Pre-buy level or better?


Pure speculation.

The opposite could be true as well. I.e., if demand far exceeds the supply "a few months after all the pre- and back-orders are cleared" the prices could actually go up and dealers could easily ask for full retail price.

Nah, Rob, will never happen...consumer electronics dealers aren't as smart as Honda dealers!!! If they were, everyone would be paying a $4000 premium over List Price for these things. :-)

The rumored 100% QC check on this side of the pond is really going to happen. I met and spoke today with one of the gentlemen who will be doing it. Quite amazing. But they want to know what they are getting from the factory in this first run. Otherwise no changes other than they seemed more confident of the final lumen output. The particular RS1 was one of the two pre-production models in the U.S.. Very good vibes on support from JVC Pro...verses Consumer JVC; very important to them.

Back order is several hundred units. I think all the AVS orders will come with the first wave, although I didn't ask specifically...that's the feeling I got. It was confirmed that some others will get them, too, :) although the first run is quite limited. Otherwise it looks like a wait until sometime late March to early April to see the next wave.


Good post Cam Man, thanks for the info! As I have said before, with JVC doing a full QC check when the units get here, and taking distribution time into account, I have a hard time seeing how even the first wave will be delivered before the middle of March. Late March and early April seem like a more realistic timetable for a significant number of units to be released. Anything sooner than that and I will be very (pleasantly) surprised. And yes, I am SPECULATING!!!!!

Nah, Rob, will never happen...consumer electronics dealers aren't as smart as Honda dealers!!! If they were, everyone would be paying a $4000 premium over List Price for these things. :-)

;)

I wonder what the reason is to omit a common VGA connection from the JVC. I mean, there is a component input, so why not a VGA? I guess you can just use a video card with DVI out to HDMI, correct?

I wonder what the reason is to omit a common VGA connection from the JVC. I mean, there is a component input, so why not a VGA? I guess you can just use a video card with DVI out to HDMI, correct?

Cost.

The rumored 100% QC check on this side of the pond is really going to happen. I met and spoke today with one of the gentlemen who will be doing it. Quite amazing. But they want to know what they are getting from the factory in this first run. Otherwise no changes other than they seemed more confident of the final lumen output. The particular RS1 was one of the two pre-production models in the U.S.. Very good vibes on support from JVC Pro...verses Consumer JVC; very important to them.

Thanks for the info Cam Man. It's impressive to me that JVC is doing this type of QC check. I have never seen nor heard of anything quite like that; especially at this price point.

By chance did this gentleman mention how long it would take to QC check each PJ or how many could be performed in a day?

Back order is several hundred units. I think all the AVS orders will come with the first wave, although I didn't ask specifically...that's the feeling I got. It was confirmed that some others will get them, too, :) although the first run is quite limited. Otherwise it looks like a wait until sometime late March to early April to see the next wave.

I hope that happens. That would be great!

Thanks again for the great post.

Rob,

Trust me on this, all units that we receive and meet QC will ship prior to the end of this month. This batch will be 100% QC'd.

CPC,

The reason VGA was left off is certainly one of cost. Providing internal Analog VGA scaling/processing and support for all the imaginable resolutions would needlessly complicate several aspects of the electronics and firmware. New desktop PC's and a fair number of current and future laptops will support DVI or HDMI. We send EDID data to the the PC and it does the rest...simple.

BTW, spent some time at today's showing of the RS1 in St. Louis with an XBOX 360 hooked up via component, running 1080i input...awesome!

Rob,

Trust me on this, all units that we receive and meet QC will ship prior to the end of this month. This batch will be 100% QC'd.


Great news! This in itself is a signficant reason to buy a RS1 vs a HD1 imho. If I recall, I speculated that this might happen and was told that this was naive thinking by a certain reputable forum member whose name I won't repeat cough er Bob... cough Sorel ahem gasp. :D (sorry Bob I couldn't resist :) )

Rob,
BTW, spent some time at today's showing of the RS1 in St. Louis with an XBOX 360 hooked up via component, running 1080i input...awesome!

Tom,

1) I read somewhere the 360's 1080p VGA out may support sync on green but does the RS1 support 1080p in that fashion?
Be interesting to find out, if the RS1 does indeed support 360's HD-DVD player at 1080p, I know many would be happy...

2) Are the Canadian RS1's a part of the units being QC'ed in the US, I was told a 2/20 ship date to dealers up here last week, is that possible?

Thanks

By chance did this gentleman mention how long it would take to QC check each PJ or how many could be performed in a day? I didn't specifically ask that because the indication was that there would definately be a second wave near the end of March, therefore by inferrence, the first wave earlier in March. The vibe I got was that this QC would not take too long.

Tom, I was with your west coast commrade today in Scottsdale. Good presentation. I went to bat early and secured the first two RS1s at the top of the list of the "AZ distributor." First one is pre-sold. Tempted to keep second for demo, but...we'll see ;)

Thanks for the reply Cam Man. I appreciate that.

Rob,

Trust me on this, all units that we receive and meet QC will ship prior to the end of this month. This batch will be 100% QC'd.



I was hoping you would pipe up and say something in this regard. I was successful in my baiting! ;) :p :D

Of course the next obvious question is how many units will constitute "this batch", but I doubt that my sly Jedi Mind Trick will work again. :D

Jack,

The Analog RGB input will support YPbPr or RGsB (RGB w/Sync on green) selectable by menu setting. The Analog RGB input only supports "Video" or "HDTV" spec signals, not your typical computer resolutions. 1080p is not supported, 720p50/60 and 1080i50/60 are the only "HDTV" signal formats supported. Based on what I saw today, no one is going to be unhappy with the 1080i limitation...it seems most of the internal graphics are rendered at 720 anyway.

To my knowledge, the RS1's destined for Canada are not coming through the US...unless some of ours fail to pass QC....just kidding!!!

Tom,

"This batch will be 100% QC'd."

I presume that means 100% of the units, but what tests will the QC consist of?

Thanks

Are you asking about taking 480i60 from a DVD and converting it to 1080p24?
If not, he should be. Aside from a few horribly mastered edge cases (Cowboy Bebop, I'm looking at you), the 60i->24p conversion is both trivial and lossless.

2.35:1 CH Stretch - The RS1 currently doesn't do this, but this is one feature that JVC wants to add before the product ships.
Has this actually been taken care of? And why would one not have the source do the stretch? Why the pj?

If not, he should be. Aside from a few horribly mastered edge cases (Cowboy Bebop, I'm looking at you), the 60i->24p conversion is both trivial and lossless.Precisely. The RS1 is already reportedly capable of detecting film cadence and generating progressive 3:2 video. It is also capable of displaying a multiple of 24 Hz. This is why I don't really buy any VP-related excuses. It's hardly a large jump from accurately detected 3:2 to a 2:2 variation. Are they afraid of stepping on the toes of the decidedly niche VP market? (More niche than midrange projectors, that is.)

You can still use an external processor. The Gennum chip in quantity is not all that expensive. With one input and no chip, perhaps the MSRP would ha been reduced by $400. However, the product would have been useless for the general market though and would have required JVC to bundle it with a relabeled other manufacturer processor ultimately raising the total cost.

JVC to bundle it with a relabeled other manufacturer processor That's gonna happen anyway...as an option. JVC Pro will soon be offering VP options with the RS1, as it does with the HD10K.

But can't more or less every DVDP stretch an image to 16:9? Just set the display type accordingly and the DVDP will stretch.
Why do you need a pj to do that if the sources can do it anyway or why buy an external processer?

"But can't more or less every DVDP stretch an image to 16:9? Just set the display type accordingly and the DVDP will stretch.
Why do you need a pj to do that if the sources can do it anyway or why buy an external processer?"

That isn't the stretch that is being asked for. The stretch that is being asked for is for those that will be using the projector with an anamorphic lens to effectively turn it into a 2.35AR projector.

Shawn

Back order is several hundred units. ...... although the first run is quite limited. Otherwise it looks like a wait until sometime late March to early April to see the next wave.
The same for the HD1, hopefully you guys dont get screwed like me: i was promised one week 4/5 and now i am hearing every week 'perhaps next week'
All becuase the local distributor was obvious asleep when he should have ordered some units. Now we see them in shops in both our neighbour countrys, and not here.

Hi,
I guess I will have to read up on this, but I always understood, that basically you stretch the 2.35 image to 1.78:1 (native panel size), feed this stretched image into the projector, which will be able to use the entire panel for the image.
Then the stretched image leaves the projector into an anamorphic lens, which then squeezes the image back to 2.35:1.

Original image on DVD:
http://www.prismasonic.com/images/aijat_133_177_letterbox.jpg

Signal leaving DVDP, passing through PJ unaltered:
http://www.prismasonic.com/images/aijat_133_177_anamorphic.jpg

Picture after it has passed through the external lens:
http://www.prismasonic.com/images/aijat_177_177.jpg

So basically the only goal is to send an image to the pj with the exact aspect ratio the panel uses in order to not lose any of the available pixels on the panel. Am I mistaken?

Yes you are mistaken. If you send a 2.35:1 image from a source to the RS1 it displays it as your picture #1 with black bars on top and bottom. The RS1 cannot produce picture #2 (your player does not send picture #2 to the PJ, this processing is what many of us would like the RS1 to have), therefore an anamorphic lense cannot produce picture #3.

Others more capable than I can give a more technical description.

When a 2.35 image hits the projector, it will fill the entire 1.78 chip(s) width but not the full height. There will be black bars on the top and bottom occupying 1/3 f the total chip(s) height.. The job of the processor in a CH 2.35 set up is to vertically strech the image height 33% to fill the whole chip. Obviously if one were to project this image on a screen, things would be too tall. So you put a lens in front of the projector lens which optically streches things horizontally, 33% to widen the image and restore the correct geometry.

I have an elderly (but very good) up-converting dvd player, the Pio 59avi. Right now I have it set to output 1080i over HDMI to my Mits rptv. The 59avi can, though, output the original unprocessed 480i signal over HDMI; would this be the best to send to the RS1, letting the latter do all the processing necessary to display 1080p?

I have an elderly (but very good) up-converting dvd player, the Pio 59avi. Right now I have it set to output 1080i over HDMI to my Mits rptv. The 59avi can, though, output the original unprocessed 480i signal over HDMI; would this be the best to send to the RS1, letting the latter do all the processing necessary to display 1080p?

Good question, but there is no way to know the answer to this until we get some reviews of people trying the various outputs. I do like having the option of 480i HDMI output from the 59avi though, and this is what people with outboard VP's with the Gennum chip use.

I have another question re screen size and viewing distance for the RS1. It's been pointed out that if one sits TOO close, e.g. a viewing distance MUCH less than the 'standard' 1.5 screen widths, then the pic will loose SHARPNESS even for a good 1080p projector like the RS1. Does anybody have any experience with this issue? E.g., will sitting at 1.3 SW likely give a noticeably 'softer' pic than at 1.5 SW? Tx, Bill

Thats not true at all. From wherever you sit, the sharpness will be exactly the same. What you will notice, the closer you sit, is if there is any softness to an image, sitting closer you will see this. Depending on how good your vision you have, that point will be closer. A perfectly sharp image will be sharp as any distance. The reason it looks "sharper" closer is because the farther away you are, because of the way your eye works, your eye will "desharpen" the image and will actually look like to you that the image is sharper. Because the RS1 uses a 3-chip design, there is no way to have 100% perfect convergence, therefore the closer you sit, the more you will notice this.

Yes, from a technical standpoint the sharpness obviously remains the same regardless of where you sit. The point, however, is whether the apparent sharpness will change if you sit much closer. Obviously if you stand right next to the screen, you will even see pixel structure, which obviously would reduce apparent sharpness.

A lot of this will have to do with how good the source material is. For example, if you blow up a 35mm negative to 40" x 60", it will NOT be as sharp looking as a 4" x 6" print. If you have a 4 x 5 negative to work with, however, you can blow it up and still retain good sharpness and detail.

Since we are talking about relatively small distances here though, I doubt the difference would be very noticeable, but may still be large enough to notice a difference, especially with SD material.

I have an elderly (but very good) up-converting dvd player, the Pio 59avi. Right now I have it set to output 1080i over HDMI to my Mits rptv. The 59avi can, though, output the original unprocessed 480i signal over HDMI; would this be the best to send to the RS1, letting the latter do all the processing necessary to display 1080p?The answer is rather simple. Display the image with 1080i from the DVD player, then display the image with 480i. Choose the one that looks the best. Because of the age, I would bet that the 480i will ultimately be the best option.

....Because the RS1 uses a 3-chip design, there's no way to have 100% perfect convergence, therefore the closer you sit, the more you will notice this.
Convergence will not be an issue, remember that a Plasma is configured as |R|G|B| and you don't see the convergence. When viewing at distances greater than 6-feet or so you don't see the 1/2 pixel misconvergence.

That's gonna happen anyway...as an option. JVC Pro will soon be offering VP options with the RS1, as it does with the HD10K.Would love more info on this. Estimated timetables or whatever. About the only thing missing from the RS1 that is of tantamount importance is 60i -> 24p conversion. It would be great indeed to learn that this specific function is planned as an add-on of sorts. (And without the high cost, high maintenance and high kludge factor of a traditional VP.)

Would love more info on this. Estimated timetables or whatever. About the only thing missing from the RS1 that is of tantamount importance is 60i -> 24p conversion. It would be great indeed to learn that this specific function is planned as an add-on of sorts. (And without the high cost, high maintenance and high kludge factor of a traditional VP.)

I believe they will offer a DVDO, Faroudja, and a Silicon Optix vp, as options.

Or they could do something really wacky and zany, like enable the lone missing function on the already built-in Gennum.

Or they could do something really wacky and zany, like enable the lone missing function on the already built-in Gennum.
"Lone" for you. For the next person, something else is the lone missing feature/function. :)

Isn't the Cinehome review supposed to be out this week?

I believe they will offer a DVDO, Faroudja, and a Silicon Optix vp, as options.


I am a bit confused on this. I assume existing RS1 customers could take advantage of this if they wanted? Can the genum processing be bypassed if using an external processor? Would they just leave the Genum chip out of the projector for people who opted to go this route? I dont understand how this would work?

When approx would this happen?? :confused:

Toe, I think keithsimp is pulling our leg.

I am a bit confused on this. I assume existing RS1 customers could take advantage of this if they wanted? Can the genum processing be bypassed if using an external processor? Would they just leave the Genum chip out of the projector for people who opted to go this route? I dont understand how this would work?

When approx would this happen?? :confused:

Generally speaking -- as I have not played with an RS-1 -- when one sends a signal at the displays native rate via DVI or HDMI, in this case 1080p, then the de-interlacer and scaler within the display are bypassed...of course, this needs to be confirmed/tested for each display device.

Hope this helps.

Toe, I think keithsimp is pulling our leg.

Sorry to disappoint you, but I'm not.

I believe they will offer a DVDO, Faroudja, and a Silicon Optix vp, as options.
If this is not integrated - built-in - how would this be a better buy than just simply being a sharp shopper and getting one aftermarket?

"JVC to bundle it with a relabeled other manufacturer processor"

That's gonna happen anyway...as an option. JVC Pro will soon be offering VP options with the RS1, as it does with the HD10K.

Cam Man has proven (to me atleast) to be very reliable. Thanks Cam.

I am a bit confused on this. I assume existing RS1 customers could take advantage of this if they wanted? Can the genum processing be bypassed if using an external processor? Would they just leave the Genum chip out of the projector for people who opted to go this route? I dont understand how this would work?

When approx would this happen?? :confused:

Toe,
These processors are going to offered at sometime in the future, no details on cost or when. It looks like JVC Pro will also offer the anamorphic lens as well, again no details on cost or when. Maybe tstites could jump in and confirm.
The RS-1 will bypass the Gennum processor if it is fed a 1080p signal, according to JVC Pro.

If this is not integrated - built-in - how would this be a better buy than just simply being a sharp shopper and getting one aftermarket?

That obviously remains to be seen, as it completely depends on the comparable features and cost of each VP.

. . it completely depends on the comparable features and cost of each VP.
Guess we both have a talent for the obvious. :)

I cannot understand why they don't simply add the 2 missing features (vertical stretch and 60i -> 24p) to the firmware. I mean it's just a matter of the firmware asking the Gennum chip to do what it can do anyway. Personally, I would consider the RS1/HD1 if it offered these 2 features on top what it can already do. Without these 2 features I'll choose an entry level projector instead. I'm willing to shell out the "big money" only if I get a projector which does all the important things I want.

Gosh, this has been covered so many times here that it's almost OT. For you, it's "2 missing features." For someone else several posts back, it was one missing feature. And for the next person, it could be something else is "missing." They had to stop somewhere and this is where they chose to do it. Buy it or don't buy it. But please stop whining.

Gosh, this has been covered so many times here that it's almost OT. For you, it's "2 missing features." For someone else several posts back, it was one missing feature. And for the next person, it could be something else is "missing." They had to stop somewhere and this is where they chose to do it. Buy it or don't buy it. But please stop whining.
I'm not whining, I'm just posting my point of view. After all, JVC might be reading this thread and so they might be interested to get some feedback about what is important to their users. If all people were like you, projector manufacturers wouldn't know what to improve in their current or future projectors!

They had to stop somewhere
Great argument. With that argument you can brush of ANY complaint. The projector doesn't come with a lense? Well, they had to stop somewhere. It doesn't come with a power supply nor with a case? Well, they had to stop somewhere.

Whining and absurd now? :rolleyes:

Gosh, this has been covered so many times here that it's almost OT. For you, it's "2 missing features." For someone else several posts back, it was one missing feature. And for the next person, it could be something else is "missing." They had to stop somewhere and this is where they chose to do it. Buy it or don't buy it. But please stop whining.I agree. There just seem to be those that think their Hyundai should have all the performance of a Ferrari. Those who are "whining" should be shopping for a projector with the features they want, not complaining about what isn't in this projector. I heard from someone at JVC, that they think they under priced the projector. (Hindsight, after orders started pouring in?) If they are selling all they can make, what would make them change? Simple, a way to get more profits, they might add a feature or two and significantly raise the price for the new model. On the other hand, we are in a very price-sensitive market.

Many talk about activating features in the Gennum chip, but seems that no one is looking for more inputs, many will have a HD-STB, HD-DVD, Blu-ray and ???........ all have different signal levels color decoding, etc. and all need separate adjustments, thus the need for an external VP with one cable to the projector to optimize performance. This is a little like choosing to go with a Receiver or Pre-amp and amps for audio.

Many talk about activating features in the Gennum chip, but seems that no one is looking for more inputs, many will have a HD-STB, HD-DVD, Blu-ray and ???........ all have different signal levels color decoding, etc. and all need separate adjustments, thus the need for an external VP with one cable to the projector to optimize performance. This is a little like choosing to go with a Receiver or Pre-amp and amps for audio.
Perfect analogy! :)

There are many JVC reps who read this forum, the UK forum and other forums. Madshi is stating his opinion, which he has every right to do. Not everyone can afford to buy a new PJ every year or every other year. If JVC gets the hint from enough users what's really important to them, possibly we'll get those features, because JVC wants more sales after all. A happy buyer is a returning buyer. Companies have learned this a long time ago. The Japanese are so into bending over backwards to keep a customer, car companies such as Toyota will come to housewives doors directly. If no one wants those features, why would JVC add features no one will use anyway? How will JVC know anything unless we tell them? Why keep quiet? If we all do that, we'll not only not get what we want but stuff we don't as well. Ever hear of the phrase, "the squeaky wheel gets the grease"?
How can anyone think that any mfg on the level of JVC didn't brainstorm with feature lists vs costs before committing to build the unit? And with them selling entire production runs before the product ships, how can anyone argue that they'd sell more if only they added (fill in the "missing" feature)?

Thats insulting. I own a Hyundai Sonata V6 with 235HP. Its the best in class. It doesn't skimp on any features. Nothing is missing. The car couldn't possibly cram in another feature.
I'm sure madshi could think of one. :D

Who is going to win the NBA three point shooting contest tonight?'

EDIT for GlenC

That's insulting. I own a Hyundai Sonata V6 with 235HP. It's the best in class........... Like I knew you had a Hyundai, may be I should have said Yugo........ In any case, the JVC RS1 seems to be "best in class" at this point.

I heard from someone at JVC, that they think they under priced the projector.

Maybe, but I for one wouldn't have ordered one if it had been any more expensive. This was at the absolute top end of what I could rationalize - and no amount of additional features would have been worth additional cost for me. Well ok, perhaps in-home calibration by Jessica Alba would have been enough to convince me to pay a tad bit more, but not vertical stretch or 60i -> 24p or 10% more contrast or lumens or LUT access or 10 fewer dB or fan noise or waaaah waaaaah sniff whine waaah whine sniff WAAAAAAH!

I can't take it anymore! Will somebody please either put me in a coma or secretly change the domain name of avsforum until my RS1 arrives?

I could really use some help. I'm ready to pull the trigger on an upgrade of my Marantz VP12s2 to 1080p. I had decided that the simplest route was to pick up a VP11s1 since i could basically just swap it out on the same mount and know that the throw distance would work etc.

But a guy just told me to get the JVC and spend the rest on a trip to Europe!!! I'd love to get some opinions of the Marantz vs. the JVC considering the difference in price point.

Also, i guess i'll need a new processor/scaler that will handle 1080p since my Immersive Simmetry won't do 1080p. What would people recommend?

Thanks in advance,

Harry

Calm down, folks. No need to dropkick each other for having opinions which differ. Personally, I maintain that the 60i -> 24p function is a trivial step from what the RS1's Gennum already performs, and its lack is a disappointment, but at the same time, since it is trivial, I don't see why it couldn't be enabled in an update soon after the unit's release.

Figuring out whether or not such a thing might be imminently probable is of considerable importance to me at this juncture. Right now, I am having to choose between one of the following scenarios:

1) Assume the RS1 will never be able to achieve 24 Hz with 60i material. Purchase a BD player which outputs 24 Hz. Purchase a HD player which outputs 24 Hz. Purchase a DVD player which outputs 24 Hz (whenever the heck that happens). Skip the HDMI Flea, as it cannot accept or deal with video at 24 Hz.

2) With assurance in hand that the RS1 will eventually be updated to enable the Gennum's 24 Hz film cadence mode, purchase a BD/HD/DVD hybrid player. Purchase the HDMI Flea.

As can be witnessed, there are big, important differences between the two solutions, and it all hinges on one little non-enabled feature of the Gennum VXP. The ultimate resolution of this quandry may in fact affect my decision to purchase the RS1 at all.

I agree. There just seem to be those that think their Hyundai should have all the performance of a Ferrari.

Using "Hyundai" as your low-performance example is a low-blow. I own a Hyundai Azera. We also have some Acura and Lexus vehicles in our extended family. Guess what they all want to take when we go out on the town together. Yep, my Hyundai. No, I'm not saying it's better than a Lexus, but it isn't as far below as many people are led to believe. And in some areas it actually out-performs the Lexus.

I get some great features and performance for at least $10,000 less than a comparable Lexus. And what do I do with the money I save? Well, I buy a home theater projector, of course. :) I'm looking at the JVC as an upgrade to my Sony HS51 projector.

Right now I'm just in the "research" phase by frequenting these forums and other sites. I am anxiously waiting the reviews to come in.

Maybe, but I for one wouldn't have ordered one if it had been any more expensive. This was at the absolute top end of what I could rationalize - and no amount of additional features would have been worth additional cost for me. Well ok, perhaps in-home calibration by Jessica Alba would have been enough to convince me to pay a tad bit more
What exactly do you think she'd be calibrating for only a "tad bit more"? ;)

LCOS doesn't have the mirrors. So no little girl or elephant for you. No magic in your life.

Common Guys. Isn't there a basketball fan here?

Dirk.

I could really use some help. I'm ready to pull the trigger on an upgrade of my Marantz VP12s2 to 1080p. I had decided that the simplest route was to pick up a VP11s1 since i could basically just swap it out on the same mount and know that the throw distance would work etc.

But a guy just told me to get the JVC and spend the rest on a trip to Europe!!! I'd love to get some opinions of the Marantz vs. the JVC considering the difference in price point.

Also, i guess i'll need a new processor/scaler that will handle 1080p since my Immersive Simmetry won't do 1080p. What would people recommend?

Thanks in advance,

Harry

Harry wants to know how much of a wow factor he will get upgrading from the Marantz VP12s2 to either the 11s1 or the RS1? What is your best guess?

Gilbert.

Miller. :cool:

I could really use some help. I'm ready to pull the trigger on an upgrade of my Marantz VP12s2 to 1080p. I had decided that the simplest route was to pick up a VP11s1 since i could basically just swap it out on the same mount and know that the throw distance would work etc.

But a guy just told me to get the JVC and spend the rest on a trip to Europe!!! I'd love to get some opinions of the Marantz vs. the JVC considering the difference in price point.

Also, i guess i'll need a new processor/scaler that will handle 1080p since my Immersive Simmetry won't do 1080p. What would people recommend?

Thanks in advance,

Harry

I was really impressed by the 11S1 when I saw it. I thought it was the best DLP that I've ever seen, but since I see rainbows it's not really an option for me. For a person who doesn't see rainbows and where cost isn't a factor, there is no right or wrong answer for the 11S1 vs RS1 debate. The 11S1 has better ANSI contrast while the RS1 has better on/off CR so for me it would come down to whether I want higher ANSI or higher on/off. If I didn't see rainbows I'd be happy with either projector in my HT.

The lens is better in the Marantz, but then again it should be, it is a lot more expensive. If some one gave me either on the condition that I could not switch it out for say 2 years, I would be happy with either.

Calm down, folks. No need to dropkick each other for having opinions which differ. Personally, I maintain that the 60i -> 24p function is a trivial step from what the RS1's Gennum already performs, and its lack is a disappointment, but at the same time, since it is trivial, I don't see why it couldn't be enabled in an update soon after the unit's release.

Figuring out whether or not such a thing might be imminently probable is of considerable importance to me at this juncture. Right now, I am having to choose between one of the following scenarios:

1) Assume the RS1 will never be able to achieve 24 Hz with 60i material. Purchase a BD player which outputs 24 Hz. Purchase a HD player which outputs 24 Hz. Purchase a DVD player which outputs 24 Hz (whenever the heck that happens). Skip the HDMI Flea, as it cannot accept or deal with video at 24 Hz.

2) With assurance in hand that the RS1 will eventually be updated to enable the Gennum's 24 Hz film cadence mode, purchase a BD/HD/DVD hybrid player. Purchase the HDMI Flea.



As can be witnessed, there are big, important differences between the two solutions, and it all hinges on one little non-enabled feature of the Gennum VXP. The ultimate resolution of this quandry may in fact affect my decision to purchase the RS1 at all.


From my understanding there is NO projector that will do 1080i60>24 Hz with its internal processing, atleast not under $10000. Isnt this correct?

The 2 missing features of the RS1 that gather the most comments seem to be:

1. the ability to do the vertical stretch

2. the ability to adjust rgb gains/offsets

Does anyone here really feel that wanting the above features is asking to much?

I would have gladly paid a bit more for these missing features and I doubt it would have cost JVC that much extra to incorporate these features into the RS1.

They could have slightly offset the cost by doing away with the S-video and composite connections. In this day and age, what owner would ever use these connections on a pj of this caliber? I'm sure it would be much less than .5% of all end users.

For those who don't already own a VP, it seems that we will have to pay several K more for the ability to do what should have been implemented from the beginning. As for the need of a VP for calibrating different sources, I always thought that's what the user memories were for.

From my understanding there is NO projector that will do 1080i60>24 Hz with its internal processing, atleast not under $10000. Isnt this correct?
I think the problem with this whole issue is the belief that the gennum processor in the RS1 is capable of doing it and all they have to do is "turn on the feature." The same with the vertical stretch. Does anybody know what would be involved with enabling these features? Is there a greater cost and if so why? And add the gains and offsets to the same
question. My $1000 Mitsubishi HD1000u has these adjustments.
Thanks,
Jason

Edited to add last two lines.

The same with the vertical stretch. Does anybody know what would be involved with enabling these features? Is there a greater cost and if so why? And add the gains and offsets to the same
question.
Even the $600 dollar Infocus IN72 includes both of those features.

For those who don't already own a VP, it seems that we will have to pay several K more for the ability to do what should have been implemented from the beginning If you're paying several K, you're paying too much. Also, if those two features were the only benefits you were gaining with a VP, then you would have a stronger point. I haven't had the opportunity to put a colorimeter to the RS1 yet to see how linear its grayscale tracking and gamma are. But with the VP I can manipulate those with tremendous flexibility, bypass the Gennum completely if I wish, and do a multitude of improvements that are just too many to expect in a projector, certainly at this price point.

Even the $600 dollar Infocus IN72 includes both of those features.
Perhaps those are present in that projector because it has less going for it in other areas?

edit: And the follow-up - who would buy a $600 projector and then go to the expense of adding an anamorphic lens. For that matter, who buying a $600 projector would even care about such esoterica?

Could I expect A:B results like these by increasing color temperature and a 1.3 gain screen which I'm trying to simulate here, or is Photoshop doing something I couldn't do like this using a projector in the real world? I'm not sure I'm catching the point of your picture comparison or question. The pictures are drastically different, and the capturing camera is a wild card that denies objective judgement. Either version of the shot might be delivered by a cinematographer, but we have no way to know which that is other than having a well calibrated system that is objectively faithful to what is on the software.

If you're paying several K, you're paying too much. Also, if those two features were the only benefits you were gaining with a VP, then you would have a stronger point. I haven't had the opportunity to put a colorimeter to the RS1 yet to see how linear its grayscale tracking and gamma are. But with the VP I can manipulate those with tremendous flexibility, bypass the Gennum completely if I wish, and do a multitude of improvements that are just too many to expect in a projector, certainly at this price point.

Yeah I totally agree. People are expecting the internal Gennum to be full featured similar to what a dedicated VP will do and this isn't going to happen. A better comparison is to see how it performs workhorse deinterlacing and scaling compared to the internal DI chips in other projectors at this price point. The Gennum is a noticeable improvement in this area than it's competition (Sony).

For a higher priced machine it might be more reasonable to increase expectations for video processing capabilities. I could see JVC releasing a more expensive RS2 that had all of the bells and whistles.

The 2 missing features of the RS1 that gather the most comments seem to be:

1. the ability to do the vertical stretch

2. the ability to adjust rgb gains/offsets

Does anyone here really feel that wanting the above features is asking to much?

I would have gladly paid a bit more for these missing features and I doubt it would have cost JVC that much extra to incorporate these features into the RS1. Gains and Offsets is a carryover from the CRT days. If the LUTs are done right, then all that is needed is RGB levels and this projector has it.

As for the vertical stretch, use the extra money you were willing to pay and find a VP or projector that does it.

Even if the requests in this forum generated a desire to activate or add additional features, how long before we would see it, one, two years? Any guess how long they were working on the RS1 before the announcement about 6-months ago? My guess is they might be working on a replacement for the HD10K, but in the meantime they will be releasing a version with a $8K 2.35:1 anamorphic lens option.

Yeah I totally agree. People are expecting the internal Gennum to be full featured similar to what a dedicated VP will do and this isn't going to happen. A better comparison is to see how it performs workhorse deinterlacing and scaling compared to the internal DI chips in other projectors at this price point. The Gennum is a noticeable improvement in this area than it's competition (Sony).

For a higher priced machine it might be more reasonable to increase expectations for video processing capabilities. I could see JVC releasing a more expensive RS2 that had all of the bells and whistles.

So, is it that it would not reeally cost more to implement, but they hope to charge more when they do in a future release? Or does it cost more to implemnt these features?

Perhaps those are present in that projector because it has less going for it in other areas?

edit: And the follow-up - who would buy a $600 projector and then go to the expense of adding an anamorphic lens. For that matter, who buying a $600 projector would even care about such esoterica?
Between you and GlenC maybe you can insult everybody on the forum today.

For a higher priced machine it might be more reasonable to increase expectations for video processing capabilities.I tend to like separates I guess, I would rather see more dollars put into projector performance, black levels, CR, lenses, grayscale, gamma, flat field uniformity, etc. and drive it by a good VP. This way, as the VPs improve or the projectors improve, you don't need to upgrade both. In this day and age, it seems that an all-in-one projector would be lower in performance and quality. If a good VP is $3k and we want a good projector for $6K, what do you expect to get if the VP portion of the projector constitutes 50% of the price?

There is a reason that the Faroudja/Meridian version of the HD10K will only accept a 1080p signal........ It requires an external VP.

I first offset the color temperature by +1,000k to simulate 7500k instead of D65. Next I increased brightness by 1.3. I personally think the difference between the two is amazing. I'm picky and the color shift is very mild, and when compared to the increase in edge contrast, it's personally a no brainer to me. If I could increase the already great contrast on the RS1 by the amount shown here, I'd be very happy. Could I expect A:B results like these by increasing color temperature and a 1.3 gain screen which I'm trying to simulate here, or is Photoshop doing something I couldn't do like this using a projector in the real world?

You do realize that the second picture in your example looks completely washed out and pretty much just awful, right? :confused:

Between you and GlenC maybe you can insult everybody on the forum today.
I apologize for committing truth.

I should have posted this here first, oops.. The Sony Pearl has 5000:1 contrast and 15,000:1 dynamic. Does the RS1 have to measurements for contrast as well? All I have seen says 15:000:1 or more.

I should have posted this here first, oops.. The Sony Pearl has 5000:1 contrast and 15,000:1 dynamic. Does the RS1 have to measurements for contrast as well? All I have seen says 15:000:1 or more.

The RS1 does not have a iris so it only has one contrast measurement.

Hello Guys this is what I sent to JVC

I would like to raise with you again this vertical stretch issue. Which the gennum processor has the power and capability of providing. JVC can really 'clean up here' with just a simple implementation of this feature. I know a few of the guys are dispondant about this feature not being available. This is felt not only here is OZ but USA and UK. Perhaps the marketing dept. is leaving this as a feature for the HD2 (power zoom and focus, 1000lum and vertical stretch. I understand the need to pave the way for the inception of future models. Or perhaps everyone in the PJ manufacturing knows secretly when and what each other are releasing. Perhaps its better to get it into the feild now grab the market and then update by firmware. But people and the nature of this industry can be rather fickle. All the positives are all of a suddenly forgotten after the pre build up

How far from the truth could the involvement of the marketing department be??

I would be happy to pay an extra 800US$ on top of the price of the HD1 to have it implemented :eek:

If you're paying several K, you're paying too much. Also, if those two features were the only benefits you were gaining with a VP, then you would have a stronger point.
Those are the two features most desired.

The lens is better in the Marantz, but then again it should be, it is a lot more expensive.

Do you know this for a fact? I know Marantz has made this claim and I know that they do pay a lot for the lens on the 11S1, but the economies of scale are such that if Marantz were to sell as many 11S1's as JVC will sell of the RS1, the lens component cost will probably be pretty similar.

Perhaps those are present in that projector because it has less going for it in other areas?
It's the replacement for the 4805 and yeah it's only a 480P chipped DLP but since it's from Infocus it's pretty close to D65 right out of the box. Besides JVC, Samsung and a few others, Infocus is one of those few manufacturers that don't greatly exaggerate their specs and are known for giving you a pretty accurate image right out of the box.

edit: And the follow-up - who would buy a $600 projector and then go to the expense of adding an anamorphic lens. For that matter, who buying a $600 projector would even care about such esoterica? More than you think. Just check the CIH threads. Their 2K 720P model has the same features for this as well.

It's the replacement for the 4805 and yeah it's only a 480P chipped DLP but since it's from Infocus it's pretty close to D65 right out of the box. Besides JVC, Samsung and a few others, Infocus is one of those few manufacturers that don't greatly exaggerate their specs and are known for giving you a pretty accurate image right out of the box.

More than you think. Just check the CIH threads. Their 2K 720P model has the same features for this as well.
Thank you for an even, logical reply. :)

BTW, Comcast's purchase of Suscom - my previous cableco - has resulted in MORE HD channels and no price increase. (Sorry for being OT.)

People are expecting the internal Gennum to be full featured similar to what a dedicated VP will do and this isn't going to happen.
Not really. Just the added ability for doing the vertical stretch.

Gains and Offsets is a carryover from the CRT days. If the LUTs are done right, then all that is needed is RGB levels and this projector has it.
And if the LUT's are off, then what?

As for the vertical stretch, use the extra money you were willing to pay and find a VP or projector that does it.
Well, for the cost of a good VP and the RS1, I might just be better off getting the Sharp 20K. ;)

And if the LUT's are off, then what?


Well, for the cost of a good VP and the RS1, I might just be better off getting the Sharp 20K. ;)

Depending on your screen size and gain. The Sharp is a no-go for me because of the low lumens in high contrast mode.

There is no perfect projector; they are all compromises to one extent or the other. IMO, the RS1/HD1 is closer to perfect than any in its price range or even the next range up.

I tend to like separates I guess, I would rather see more dollars put into projector performance, black levels, CR, lenses, grayscale, gamma, flat field uniformity, etc. and drive it by a good VP. This way, as the VPs improve or the projectors improve, you don't need to upgrade both. In this day and age, it seems that an all-in-one projector would be lower in performance and quality.
How soon before we can buy everything a' la carte?

It just seems redundant and a waste to have a great processor in the pj yet we have to buy a seperate VP to achieve the desired results.

If a good VP is $3k and we want a good projector for $6K, what do you expect to get if the VP portion of the projector constitutes 50% of the price?A great pj that does it all for about $7500. ;)

Depending on your screen size and gain. The Sharp is a no-go for me because of the low lumens in high contrast mode.
120" SS, so I think I should be okay.

Edit: The fan noise of the 4805 doesn't bother me either so I should be okay there as well.

I'm not saying that I'm abandoning the RS1 but there are some things that have to be considered. I'm actuall glad that I'm last on the preorder list and may not be in the first shipment. It will give me more time to read the first hand reviews of those here that are in the first wave and allow me to get a better feel on whether the RS1 will fill my needs.

Not to take away from AVForums (UK site), but they aren't near as thorough as the folks here. This pj will be picked over like turkey vultures do to roadkill. ;)

Depending on your screen size and gain. The Sharp is a no-go for me because of the low lumens in high contrast mode.


And it's a no-go because you have a 123" screen. Sheesh that's big. I plugged 123" dimensions into my foot lambert spreadsheet and realized what challenges you face Rob. An RS1 stack is in your future :)

How soon before we can buy everything a' la carte?

It just seems redundant and a waste to have a great processor in the pj yet we have to buy a seperate VP to achieve the desired results.

A great pj that does it all for about $7500. ;)This is a great business opportunity for anyone interested. Just make a deal with JVC or manufacturer of projector of choice and do all the enhancements, lower fan noise, vertical stretch, activate additional processor features, etc. and market it as your own. Something like Faroudja/Meridian, Runco and others are doing.

On another note, it is amazing how the expression of reality and truth is construed as insulting to everyone..........

Not really. Just the added ability for doing the vertical stretch. Unless the folks in JVC Pro are better than the military was at keeping the F-117 a secret so long, it is virtually certain that we are not going to see this feature in the first generation of the RS1. It would be a great surprise, but count on it not happening. Torture yourself in the mean time, if you wish. :)

And if the LUT's are off, then what?If the LUTs are off, cuts and drives arent going to fix the problem.Well, for the cost of a good VP and the RS1, I might just be better off getting the Sharp 20K. ;)This is what it is all about, choosing the one that fits your needs. However, I would bet that many of the Sharp owners would agree that an external VP is an improvement.

This is a great business opportunity for anyone interested. Just make a deal with JVC or manufacturer of projector of choice and do all the enhancements, lower fan noise, vertical stretch, activate additional processor features, etc. and market it as your own. Something like Faroudja/Meridian, Runco and others are doing.
Touche' ;)



On another note, it is amazing how the expression of reality and truth is construed as insulting to everyone.......... :confused:

How soon before we can buy everything a' la carte?

It just seems redundant and a waste to have a great processor in the pj yet we have to buy a seperate VP to achieve the desired results.

A great pj that does it all for about $7500. ;)

I think JVC would sell a lot fewer projectors at $7500 with the vertical stretch. Most people, like me, don't care about that feature and I would much rather save the money. The pre-buy price, as good as it was, was already a stretch....

Gains and Offsets is a carryover from the CRT days. If the LUTs are done right, then all that is needed is RGB levels and this projector has it.
Originally Posted by smithfarmer
And if the LUT's are off, then what?
If the LUTs are off, cuts and drives arent going to fix the problem.
I believe I'm missing something here. I don't know how to properly calibrate a pj but will pay someone who can. Why are people clamoring for the ability to adjust gains like they will be able to do for the offsets? I thought the reason was to allow a calibrator the ability to fully adjust the grayscale. Isn't LUT access basically for shading uniformity?

I think JVC would sell a lot fewer projectors at $7500 with the vertical stretch. Most people, like me, don't care about that feature and I would much rather save the money. The pre-buy price, as good as it was, was already a stretch....
I can appreciate what you're saying here. The $7500 figure would be MSRP and wasn't just for including vertical stretch but for a pj that takes full advantage of the processor that it does have.

They are going to sell the RS1 with a chip that doesn't have all of it's features enabled. They will also sell the RS1 bundled with an external VP for quite a bit more. There's a middle ground here that won't be touched by JVC. For those who don't need a fully featured VP with all of it's extra inputs and outputs and the switching capabilities that go along with it, they could simply sell a version of the RS1 that makes full use of the chip that it does have.

It's just a thought. ;)

120" SS, so I think I should be okay.

Edit: The fan noise of the 4805 doesn't bother me either so I should be okay there as well.

I'm not saying that I'm abandoning the RS1 but there are some things that have to be considered. I'm actuall glad that I'm last on the preorder list and may not be in the first shipment. It will give me more time to read the first hand reviews of those here that are in the first wave and allow me to get a better feel on whether the RS1 will fill my needs.



I actually have very similar feelings. I wouldn't be devastated if I don't get my RS1 in the first batch as it would allow me to read the various reviews and feedback from other users first. My order went in just a couple days before yours.

Of course if the reviews come in and they are all raving about what a great PJ it is, I will be MAD AS HELL that I didn't get mine in the first batch! :mad:

:p

LUT means "look-up-table". Each value in the table is then passed to a function. So even if given access to the tables, unless you knew what the function did, how that function affected a circuit, and the know how to actually understand the math involved, LUT access would be useless to you. So basically you're looking at engineering, physics and high math skills. This is why pretty much only Mr Phelps is one of only a few who can actually make use of the LUT access. Even if someone had Mr Phelps configure his PJ and he gave you his LUT values, and you programmed them, your RS1 is not 100% the same. At the very least it wouldn't work, at the most your PJ would no longer function. the LUTs do much more than gray scale. Again, unless you knew what every value did, you'll more than likely drastically degrade the performance of your PJ, possibly even break it.
I'm aware of what they are and what tools and skill sets are required to use them but I thought they're just for adjusting shading uniformity. Anyway, thanks for the reply.

Of course if the reviews come in and they are all raving about what a great PJ it is, I will be MAD AS HELL that I didn't get mine in the first batch! :mad:

:p
:D :D :D

I would be happy to pay an extra 800US$ on top of the price of the HD1 to have it implemented :eek:Indeed, I could see myself paying a little extra for what would be a tiny extra feature implementation and no extra hardware.

But that's sort of a problem. See, the RS1 is already able to take 60i material and display 60p @ 3:2. There is a tiny, tiny step involved in dropping one out of five frames of that 3:2 so you get 48p @ 2:2. Nothing at all complicated, and nothing the Gennum VXP has not already been proven capable of handling. The problem JVC has is that they can't really try to get away with charging extra money for this capability. It would be tantamount to, say, shipping the RS1 with 1920x1080 panels but with only 1280x720 pixels enabled on them, and "offering" true 1080p for a small extra bit of cash. It would look bad.

The arguments about expecting "too much" at this price point don't fly with me, for the reason outlined above. Besides, it seems the speed with which projector prices are dropping is leaving the critics' sense of value behind. Three years ago when I picked up a 1280x1024 JVC projector, it was $17k. Now you can get any of a few projectors which blow it away, for a fraction of the price. "This price point" isn't some seemingly generous anomaly; it's the nature of the market today.

Since we are dealing with a digital projector, the LUTs are the foundation of how images are displayed. There are tables for full field uniformity, and there are gamma tables. The gamma tables contain the grayscale (level of RGB) for each step in the table. For video it covers 16-235 for RGB. RGB level control just changes the balance of RGB to adjust color temp, when you add cuts and drives, there is some adjustment on the low end and some on the high end, but you don't correct errors in the LUT.

and was curious to anyone who actually owns a gain screen, how close to my second picture would the real gain one look? If the real gain looks that washed out, then I would definitely have to rethink getting any sort of screen with gain.A gain screen will not wash out the image. In fact, just the opposite, in anything but a bat cave it will increase contrast (be less washed out) compared with a matt white screen because it will preferentially reject any light that has been reflected from the screen to the walls, floor or ceiling and back again to the screen.

Brent

.....

I'm actuall glad that I'm last on the preorder list and may not be in the first shipment.


Hey!!! I thought I was last on the preorder list. :)

Doug

Hey!!! I thought I was last on the preorder list. :)

Doug

Oh boy, here we go again! :eek: :p

I have the RS-1 on pre-order. When I ordered it I had just bought a new house in Denver and was going to be using it in a dedicated home theater. Well, now I am no longer moving and we are selling the house. It may be a few months before we can sell it and another few months before we by a new house. The room I am using now is really to small and I would only be able to get a screen about maybe 7'-8' wide. When I buy my new house I am planning on having a dedicated theater much bigger than I have now, so buying a screen now is not something I want to do. So, I need to decided if I go ahead and get the RS-1 and stick it in a closet for the next 6 months, or do I just cancel my order and see what's out when I get my new house? The pre-order was such a good deal that I really don't want to cancel. What's do others think about this?

I have the RS-1 on pre-order. When I ordered it I had just bought a new house in Denver and was going to be using it in a dedicated home theater. Well, now I am no longer moving and we are selling the house. It may be a few months before we can sell it and another few months before we by a new house. The room I am using now is really to small and I would only be able to get a screen about maybe 7'-8' wide. When I buy my new house I am planning on having a dedicated theater much bigger than I have now, so buying a screen now is not something I want to do. So, I need to decided if I go ahead and get the RS-1 and stick it in a closet for the next 6 months, or do I just cancel my order and see what's out when I get my new house? The pre-order was such a good deal that I really don't want to cancel. What's do others think about this?

If you are really talking about 6 full months, it is a pretty easy answer: cancel your order.

You will have the benefit of reading numerous reviews of the RS1 in 6 months, user reports, numerous AVS threads etc. that will give you a better idea of exactly what the RS1's strengths and weaknesses are. Also, CEDIA would be just another month away, and new projectors will probably be announced, giving you even more options.

Personally I don't think I would spend that kind of money on something knowing I would have to store it for half a year before using it.

I have the RS-1 on pre-order. When I ordered it I had just bought a new house in Denver and was going to be using it in a dedicated home theater. Well, now I am no longer moving and we are selling the house. It may be a few months before we can sell it and another few months before we by a new house. The room I am using now is really to small and I would only be able to get a screen about maybe 7'-8' wide. When I buy my new house I am planning on having a dedicated theater much bigger than I have now, so buying a screen now is not something I want to do. So, I need to decided if I go ahead and get the RS-1 and stick it in a closet for the next 6 months, or do I just cancel my order and see what's out when I get my new house? The pre-order was such a good deal that I really don't want to cancel. What's do others think about this?


I would also agree to cancel the order. No question about it.

I have the RS-1 on pre-order. When I ordered it I had just bought a new house in Denver and was going to be using it in a dedicated home theater. Well, now I am no longer moving and we are selling the house. It may be a few months before we can sell it and another few months before we by a new house. The room I am using now is really to small and I would only be able to get a screen about maybe 7'-8' wide. When I buy my new house I am planning on having a dedicated theater much bigger than I have now, so buying a screen now is not something I want to do. So, I need to decided if I go ahead and get the RS-1 and stick it in a closet for the next 6 months, or do I just cancel my order and see what's out when I get my new house? The pre-order was such a good deal that I really don't want to cancel. What's do others think about this?An 8' wide screen (110" diag) is not a bad size for this projector.

I sold my Ruby in May of last year, rather than sit on it while we were having a house built (knowing that something new and better would be out at the end of the year and that it would drop the value of the Ruby more.)

I would recommend waiting as well. No telling what else will be out by then. I was very fortunate to have sold it, as even though the house we were building fell through and I am having serious withdrawals from having to watch HD on a 30, 38, and 42 inch screens, Im in line for the RS1 and a 2.35 setup now.

I still get tempted by the VP-11s1, the Sharp 20k, and even the Benqs, but none of them will allow me to have the brightness i need to fill my 136" 2.35 carada screen and have it approach anywhere near the black levels of the RS1 at the same time .. so I keep settling back on it.

If I still had my Ruby, after having it boxed up for 6 months, I wouldnt have the luxury that i have now of being able to explore all those options.

I would definitely wait if I was in your position (again.)

I have the RS-1 on pre-order. When I ordered it I had just bought a new house in Denver and was going to be using it in a dedicated home theater. Well, now I am no longer moving and we are selling the house. It may be a few months before we can sell it and another few months before we by a new house. The room I am using now is really to small and I would only be able to get a screen about maybe 7'-8' wide. When I buy my new house I am planning on having a dedicated theater much bigger than I have now, so buying a screen now is not something I want to do. So, I need to decided if I go ahead and get the RS-1 and stick it in a closet for the next 6 months, or do I just cancel my order and see what's out when I get my new house? The pre-order was such a good deal that I really don't want to cancel. What's do others think about this?

Definitely cancel now and see what is out in 6+ months.

1) Many companies will tweak models of an existing unit to fix bugs/complaints, so the model 6 months from now may be a little better. I'm guessing after 6 months those units may have better edge to edge uniformity.

2) September is when all the new stuff will be announced so you can see what is out then, and projectors are like PCs next years model is always faster, better, cooler, and often cheaper as well. Maybe next year's models are a little brighter.

And remember whatever you buy now will likely be difficult to sell when it is used, so get something that will keep you happy for years.

How can anyone think that any mfg on the level of JVC didn't brainstorm with feature lists vs costs before committing to build the unit?
I think you are over estimating manufacturers if you think they perfectly know which features are important for end users and which are not.

Recently I read that Panasonic's chief engineer (?, don't remember the exact position) was very surprised when he got strong feedback from many many people that 1080p24 output would be important for Blu-Ray players and also important as input for plasmas. Ever wondered why the current Blu-Ray player can't output 1080p24 and why even the latest Panasonic 1080p plasmas don't accept 1080p24 over HDMI/DVI?

Ever wondered why even Samsung's 2nd gen Blu-Ray player still can't output 1080p24? Every wondered why there were a number of ultra expensive Sharp 1080p LCD flat panel displays which were not able to accept 1080p inputs at all? I could go on with examples where manufacturers failed to implement even the most obvious features in even the most expensive devices they are/were offering.

There is no perfect projector; they are all compromises to one extent or the other. IMO, the RS1/HD1 is closer to perfect than any in its price range or even the next range up.
Agreed. The "problem" is that it's so attractive that it even gets interest from people who originally didn't plan to buy a projector of this price range. And such people are scared away by having to add an external video processor on top of the RS1/HD1 price. You high end folks probably think: "Wow, so much performance for such a low price, I can easily buy an external VP and still get along with a better image and less money than I was originally planning". But for people coming from lower price ranges things look a bit different.

The main reason why I'm "complaining" is that the 2 features I'm missing should be really easy to add without any additional hardware cost for JVC. They've pulled out all the stops in the technology, but then somewhat stopped in the middle of the road with the firmware. The point here is that the firmware is just software. So the cost for JVC is only to write in once. It's not a cost per sold projector. So if polishing the firmware will bring additional demand that should be an attractive option for JVC economy wise.

Ok, if they are selling all they can produce, anyway, there's no need to change anything. However, if sales are really that great, then why not increasing production?

I have the RS-1 on pre-order. When I ordered it I had just bought a new house in Denver and was going to be using it in a dedicated home theater. Well, now I am no longer moving and we are selling the house. It may be a few months before we can sell it and another few months before we by a new house. The room I am using now is really to small and I would only be able to get a screen about maybe 7'-8' wide. When I buy my new house I am planning on having a dedicated theater much bigger than I have now, so buying a screen now is not something I want to do. So, I need to decided if I go ahead and get the RS-1 and stick it in a closet for the next 6 months, or do I just cancel my order and see what's out when I get my new house? The pre-order was such a good deal that I really don't want to cancel. What's do others think about this?

Although I would normally agree with everyone else who has said to cancel your pre-order, I do think I should point something out - the pre-order price. I doubt very much that the RS-1 will be available at the pre-order price for quite some time, and I certainly don't think that it will happen within the next 6 months. Sure, 6 months in the electronics industry is a very long time, and a lot can happen. But assuming you buy the PJ and something better comes out in 6 months that's worth selling the RS-1, you could turn around and sell it for more than you bought it and still give the buyer a bargain.

I'm not saying that you should go ahead and buy it, just trying to put some perspective on the very low price offered in the AVS pre-buy.

QUOTE]The "problem" is that it's so attractive that it even gets interest from people who originally didn't plan to buy a projector of this price range. And such people are scared away by having to add an external video processor on top of the RS1/HD1 price.[/QUOTE]

I agree with Madshi. I am one of these people who resent being put in this awkward position of having to purchase a video processor at a couple of thousand bucks over and above the already 6k here in Canada I'd have to pay just so I could have access to RGB gains and cuts which manufacturers include in $1000.00 projectors now routinely.

I do not wish to have to send this projector to Mr. Phelps as I do not know him in spite of his excellent reputation. I don't wish to trust the mail system or a courier to ship this projector to him and back again without risking some sort of accident. You say this is what insurance is for? Sure, and that costs money and involves more hassle should something happen. Does this not also void any of the already miniscule warranty JVC is offering on this projector to have William Phelps work his magic? Now add the cost of his services to the price of the projector and perhaps it might be best to purchase a different brand and technology other than JVC and LCOS. I mean if it takes this kind of action to get a projector to be at it's best, it's then out of my league. I can stretch to afford the RS1 at it's current street price but even then it represents about 8 mortgage payments for my wife and I. Let's put some flesh and blood on this. We're not all capable of buying a Ruby one year and ditching it the next for a $20,000.00 pj.

And please don't tell me that well then this projector may not be for me and that I should move on to something else. I have a message for JVC. This projector could very easily be for me if you'd incorporate the RGB gains and cuts functionality into the user menu so that I can use my SpyderTVPRO to calibrate. The CIH ability has also been incorporated into projectors at a much lesser price. I agree with another poster that surely the s-video and composite inputs could have been sacrificed in order to include these two missing items as well as the other in the unholy trinity. Can anyone in this forum or reading this thread imagine anyone complaining about s-video and composite inputs being left out. Imagine how such a poster would be roasted over the coals to even dare bring up such a comment.

speters,

I agree with the other members who are advising you to cancel. Remember, if you buy it now, sit on it for half a year and then turn it on and find out that the bulb won't fire (an unlikely but wholly possible scenario), you'll have expired your 90 day lamp warranty by 90 days already and will have to add $400.00 to the cost of the projector to purchase another new lamp.

As far as the excellent pricing on the projector from AVS, in 6 months time or so it probably isn't a stretch to surmise that you might be able to come up with the same pricing from a dealer as they look to clear out inventory to make way for the RS2.

Wayne

The "problem" is that it's so attractive that it even gets interest from people who originally didn't plan to buy a projector of this price range. And such people are scared away by having to add an external video processor on top of the RS1/HD1 price.

I agree with Madshi. I am one of these people who resent being put in this awkward position of having to purchase a video processor at a couple of thousand bucks over and above the already 6k here in Canada I'd have to pay just so I could have access to RGB gains and cuts which manufacturers include in $1000.00 projectors now routinely.

I do not wish to have to send this projector to Mr. Phelps as I do not know him in spite of his excellent reputation. I don't wish to trust the mail system or a courier to ship this projector to him and back again without risking some sort of accident. You say this is what insurance is for? Sure, and that costs money and involves more hassle should something happen. Does this not also void any of the already miniscule warranty JVC is offering on this projector to have William Phelps work his magic? Now add the cost of his services to the price of the projector and perhaps it might be best to purchase a different brand and technology other than JVC and LCOS. I mean if it takes this kind of action to get a projector to be at it's best, it's then out of my league. I can stretch to afford the RS1 at it's current street price but even then it represents about 8 mortgage payments for my wife and I. Let's put some flesh and blood on this. We're not all capable of buying a Ruby one year and ditching it the next for a $20,000.00 pj.

And please don't tell me that well then this projector may not be for me and that I should move on to something else. I have a message for JVC. This projector could very easily be for me if you'd incorporate the RGB gains and cuts functionality into the user menu so that I can use my SpyderTVPRO to calibrate.
Wayne


JVC has other PJ products in its range and maybe it simply doesn't wish to "kill" them off by undermining the additional features they offer by offering everything on model. :)

Dazzer

Ever wondered why the current Blu-Ray player can't output 1080p24 and why even the latest Panasonic 1080p plasmas don't accept 1080p24 over HDMI/DVI?

Ever wondered why even Samsung's 2nd gen Blu-Ray player still can't output 1080p24? Every wondered why there were a number of ultra expensive Sharp 1080p LCD flat panel displays which were not able to accept 1080p inputs at all?
Honestly, no I haven't wondered. No 24Hz output - native for movies on BD/HD-DVD - is a deal breaker, as is the inability to accept 24Hz as an input and 2x, 3x or 4x it for display. I just accepted it and ignored those units.

Agreed. The "problem" is that it's so attractive that it even gets interest from people who originally didn't plan to buy a projector of this price range. And such people are scared away by having to add an external video processor on top of the RS1/HD1 price. You high end folks probably think: "Wow, so much performance for such a low price, I can easily buy an external VP and still get along with a better image and less money than I was originally planning". But for people coming from lower price ranges things look a bit different.
I may have been overestimating manufacturers' insight into what features to include, you may be overestimating the number of people who are interested in an external VP and/or CIH. Most will be delighted with the projector's performance as is. I would be one of those.

The main reason why I'm "complaining" is that the 2 features I'm missing should be really easy to add without any additional hardware cost for JVC. They've pulled out all the stops in the technology, but then somewhat stopped in the middle of the road with the firmware. The point here is that the firmware is just software. So the cost for JVC is only to write in once. It's not a cost per sold projector. So if polishing the firmware will bring additional demand that should be an attractive option for JVC economy wise.
I hear ya, I just disagree. It is what it is and no amount of passioned posts on this, or any, forum will change that. Maybe they'll rev it - add an "a" or something, and *that* unit will have the features you seek.

I agree with Madshi. I am one of these people who resent being put in this awkward position of having to purchase a video processor at a couple of thousand bucks over and above the already 6k here in Canada I'd have to pay just so I could have access to RGB gains and cuts which manufacturers include in $1000.00 projectors now routinely.

Wayne
You resent it? I'm sorry, but that's just silly.

Isn't the Cinehome review supposed to be out this week?
The week is not over yet! Given the time and care he's taking, I can only imagine how detailed it is likely to be! :D

Btw, whatever happened to the review that Jason Turk had gotten us all worked up about a couple of months back? I went looking for it and notice that the thread was closed, but did the review appear elsewhere?

If you were Jason,would you be in a rush to review THIS projector? Some here are going to even want Jason to smell the box and to see if he can tell if the projector still has that "new" smell since JVC took it out of the box to check and the "new" smell may have evaporated.

Where is the DLA-RS1 clarification post promised by JVC in the "JVC RS1 or HD1 at CES" thread on Jan 11, 2007 as quoted below? I am getting increasingly confused by the apparent speculations on this forum about this product. I hope someone at JVC either has or will clarify these speculations. I am posting this question in both the "JVC RS1 or HD1 at CES" and "JVC DLA-RS1 questions answered!" forum threads, but would appreciate a response in only the "questions answered" thread.
First of all, my sincere thanx to all of you who weaved their way to find the JVC Professional Products Company suite at Caesars Hotel and Casino. Everyone who came up to the suite that we met had well received comments and input. It was an absolute pleasure to have an open, honest dialogue with all of you and I truely appreciate that there was some difficulty finding us the first day before the official room number got out.

There is some miss interpretation as to what the RS1 is or is not - I hope that I explained and defined this to many of you in the suite. For those of you who were unable to discuss this overview with me directly, we will post this and attempt to define our product, support and direction fully by early next week here.

Again, my sincere thanx to all of you who stopped by to talk to us and see our product lineup for next year.

Lon Mass
JVC Professional Products Company
Division Manager
Display Division

I may have been overestimating manufacturers' insight into what features to include, you may be overestimating the number of people who are interested in an external VP and/or CIH. Most will be delighted with the projector's performance as is. I would be one of those.
I'm not sure how many people are actually interested in CIH by using anamorphic lenses. Probably there are not that many. You might have a point there.

But the other feature (60i -> 24p) is really an important one IMHO. Especially here in Europe, where people are not used to the 3:2 motion judder. You know, PAL speedup has its own problems, but at least it's judder free. The forums here are quite full of complaints about motion judder with HD DVD and Blu-Ray. And the only way to get judder free HD DVD playback with the RS1/HD1 is by adding an external video processor to it (unless Toshiba adds 24p output sooner or later). The most hyped display device in the forums here in Germany currently is the Pioneer plasma, because it does 60i -> 24p.

On the other hand I can't really blame JVC for not doing 60i -> 24p, because I don't know any other projector who does it. But then - somebody has to be the first to offer this important feature. And the Gennum chip can do it.

You resent it? I'm sorry, but that's just silly.

resent (transitive verb)

'be annoyed at'

Encarta Dictionary

pepar,

It doesn't seem silly to me. You have a right to your opinion about my choice of words as I have the freedom of expressing my thoughts in this matter in the manner in which I choose. That's why there's chocolate and vanilla. :)

Oh there I go being silly again. ;)

Wayne

It's easy to be dismissive of features you don't personally need - such as CIH (for myself) but I can certainly empathize with those who know that they will be forced to spend an extra 2K+ because someone decided it wasn't worth a couple of days work to test and implement the software feature that the hardware is capable of.

Harder for me to understand would be the lack of better color tuning capabilities. I mean this isn't something that any modern mid to high end (or even mid-low end) display device skimps on. Even for those of you planning to use external VPs, there are color crushing / posterization / banding issues if you plan to use the digital connections since you're restricted to 8-bit input. I'm hoping that 10bit input over HDMI works on this pj, at the very least.

Putting this into perspective for myself, I'm still in optimistic boat - hopefully the color controls can get you close enough without the need for a VP, and I don't plan to use CIH for now. I still empathize with those who need this feature, it seems like an oversight. And if the color is not that great or varies per unit, I may then be in the angry camp that some people are in now before they even know that this pj will have any real issues on the color front.

But the other feature (60i -> 24p) is really an important one IMHO. Especially here in Europe, where people are not used to the 3:2 motion judder. You know, PAL speedup has its own problems, but at least it's judder free. The forums here are quite full of complaints about motion judder with HD DVD and Blu-Ray. And the only way to get judder free HD DVD playback with the RS1/HD1 is by adding an external video processor to it (unless Toshiba adds 24p output sooner or later). The most hyped display device in the forums here in Germany currently is the Pioneer plasma, because it does 60i -> 24p.

On the other hand I can't really blame JVC for not doing 60i -> 24p, because I don't know any other projector who does it. But then - somebody has to be the first to offer this important feature. And the Gennum chip can do it.

oops, nevermind .. the conversion. 8/

Definitely cancel now and see what is out in 6+ months. I whole-heartedly disagree with this, and I agree with GlenC that an 8' to 9' screen width is not bad at all for the RS1, especially if you are not using a CIH 2.35 system. Unless you are forced to sit far away from the screen, this is a very good size. You will have very good luminance on Normal mode. You could be enjoying a lot of good pictures for the next six months for the terrific price you got in the pre-buy.

The room I am using now is really to small and I would only be able to get a screen about maybe 7'-8' wide. When I buy my new house I am planning on having a dedicated theater much bigger than I have now, so buying a screen now is not something I want to do. So, I need to decided if I go ahead and get the RS-1 and stick it in a closet for the next 6 months, or do I just cancel my order and see what's out when I get my new house?

I think what he is asking is not if a screen 8' wide is a good size but if he should buy the RS1 and keep it shelved for 6 months. It seems to me he wants a larger screen for his larger room and doesnt intend to buy a smaller, max 8', screen now to want a bigger screen in 6 months.

It seems to me he wants a larger screen for his larger room and doesnt intend to buy a smaller, max 8', screen now to want a bigger screen in 6 months. If you have no screen now, I see the concern. Still, you might consider a budget 8' screen for six months, then sell it off on the move or leave it with the old house.

QUOTE] Can anyone in this forum or reading this thread imagine anyone complaining about s-video and composite inputs being left out. Imagine how such a poster would be roasted over the coals to even dare bring up such a comment.

I may be the odd man out on this point, but I will actually be using the S-Video input for laserdiscs. I have a few movies in that format that I haven't found on DVD....

I think you are over estimating manufacturers if you think they perfectly know which features are important for end users and which are not.
....
I also want to support Madshi on this point. I am speaking from experience since I was a Business Development Manager in the communications equipment field. One of the most important parts of my job was to take prototype equipment and specifications to large account teams and VIP customers to evaluate the equipment against THEIR requirements, not what our designers thought. There were ALWAYS things the designers didn't think of, both hardware and software that were critical to some customers.

To the credit of the group I worked with, they were always ready to make changes to accommodate a customer if it made sense from a business/financial perspective. I was able to turn around SW development request much more complicated than activating a feature that the hardware already supported in a matter of weeks, not months. Another customer wanted a specialized equipment mounting bracket that no one had foreseen a need for. We did that in a matter of weeks also.

The point I am making is that companies need an information feedback flow from the customer to the product designers that is very rapid and a product development model that allows that information to be acted upon quickly. Unfortunately, there aren't many companies that successfully achieve that level of customer input and awareness. JVC appears to have some dedicated people both here and in Europe that could fulfill the Business Development role but they appear to lack the business model to support them. With the technical expertise they have shown in the HD1, they could be poised to make a VERY large comeback against the likes of Sony in the consumer electronics area if they put a customer centric business development model in place.

I also want to support Madshi on this point. I am speaking from experience since I was a Business Development Manager in the communications equipment field. One of the most important parts of my job was to take prototype equipment and specifications to large account teams and VIP customers to evaluate the equipment against THEIR requirements, not what our designers thought. There were ALWAYS things the designers didn't think of, both hardware and software that were critical to some customers.

To the credit of the group I worked with, they were always ready to make changes to accommodate a customer if it made sense from a business/financial perspective. I was able to turn around SW development request much more complicated than activating a feature that the hardware already supported in a matter of weeks, not months. Another customer wanted a specialized equipment mounting bracket that no one had foreseen a need for. We did that in a matter of weeks also.

The point I am making is that companies need an information feedback flow from the customer to the product designers that is very rapid and a product development model that allows that information to be acted upon quickly. Unfortunately, there aren't many companies that successfully achieve that level of customer input and awareness. JVC appears to have some dedicated people both here and in Europe that could fulfill the Business Development role but they appear to lack the business model to support them. With the technical expertise they have shown in the HD1, they could be poised to make a VERY large comeback against the likes of Sony in the consumer electronics area if they put a customer centric business development model in place.The main thing we don't have here is knowledge of the research that JVC did and the factors dictating the current configuration. This projector could be a market test for a more expensive full featured projector or just a gap filler for the H10K to run its course. Just the fact that the RS1/HD1 has smaller chips, cheaper lens and limited features indicates it is an entry-level unit, not the top of the line.

Many want CIH and full processor features, I would rather have a larger chip and better lens, features/enhancements that cannot be added with a VP.

MauneyM,

I didn't think about that of course and I'm glad that it's there for you and any others with a similar need. :)

Wayne

Harder for me to understand would be the lack of better color tuning capabilities. I mean this isn't something that any modern mid to high end (or even mid-low end) display device skimps on.

Apparently, it doesn't have better capabilities because it doesn't need them. Reviews in the pre-production models showed that Grey scale was almost perfect OOB, and could be made perfect with the RGB controls it does come with. What more do we need? If you want to play with controls for hours to get the same Greyscale of the JVC, buy something else.... ;)

Apparently, it doesn't have better capabilities because it doesn't need them. Reviews in the pre-production models showed that Grey scale was almost perfect OOB, and could be made perfect with the RGB controls it does come with. What more do we need? If you want to play with controls for hours to get the same Greyscale of the JVC, buy something else.... ;)

The current lack of a calibration interface has been discussed ad nauseum. I will say though that the included RGB controls are not sufficient to make the greyscale "perfect" unless the greyscale is flat OOB. Spikes and dips in greyscales are not unusual and the only way to correct this is via LUT access. Most people seem to think that the RS1 will have good greyscale and shading OOB but if you happen to be one of those whose units isn't perfect out of the box you may find yourself wishing for this feature that you seem to so easily dismiss.

EDIT: Also, just to put it into perspective. I've owned every generation of JVC projector (G11, SX-21, HD2K and now the RS1) and with every projector I've owned, it has needed this calibration interface and I've utilized it either via programs such as Dilard or through the services of Wm Phelps.

Who is Wm Phelps? :confused: :o

Who is Wm Phelps? :confused: :o

William Phelps (wm on this forum) is a DILA/SXRD calibration guru who uses his own SW tools and equipment to access the LUT and perform a very precise calibration of LCOS projectors. His calibration services include precise shading, greyscale and gamma curve adjustments. He also is responsible for the quality calibration in every meridian-faroudja projector sold.

William Phelps (wm on this forum) is a DILA/SXRD calibration guru who uses his own SW tools and equipment to access the LUT and perform a very precise calibration of LCOS projectors. His calibration services include precise shading, greyscale and gamma curve adjustments. He also is responsible for the quality calibration in every meridian-faroudja projector sold.
Heap big magic, then, is at the root of the awe I sense. :)

I think what he is asking is not if a screen 8' wide is a good size but if he should buy the RS1 and keep it shelved for 6 months. It seems to me he wants a larger screen for his larger room and doesnt intend to buy a smaller, max 8', screen now to want a bigger screen in 6 months.

This is correct. I don't currently have a screen, and actually I think I was overly optimistic about the size of screen I would be able to use now. I just measured my room and it is only around 12'x13'x10. Where I would be able to put the screen would only be 9' away from my couch, so I actually would only be able to get away with about a 70" screen. Is that correct? I currently live in San Francisco and currently just renting. I need to waite until I sell our house in Denver before I start looking here. I am going to have to move outside of SF to be able to have a HT that will be big enough for what I want. I really only need to have maybe three rows of three to four seats, but I am planing on using some Mirage M3's all the way around, which are quit large speakers. So I'm going to need some room for those suckers to sound at their best. I was planning on going with the Screen Research ClearPix 2, not s cheap screen. The main reason I don't just cancel, as someone else has pointed out, is that the power buy for this projector is a heck of a deal. Do you think that in six months you would be able to buy this projector for that price, even if something newer and better comes out? Wouldn't I at least be able to sell it for close to what I paid?

The one thing that I did not consider was just getting a cheap small screen to get me by. How much would a cheap 70" screen be? The room I am in now is light controlled. There are windows which are currently behind where the screen would go and I have heavy dark purple curtains that go from floor to ceiling, so they block out almost all of the light, except for some slight spill form the side of the curtains. I am currently using a Mits 65" RPTV that is only about two years old and has been calibrated by and ISF tech. I am assuming that the RS1 on a cheap 70" screen would still look better that the Mits., correct? For sources I currently have the Toshiba HD-1A, Motorola 6412 III, sdi modded Denon 3910. All of these are running into the Iscan VP50.

If you use Blockout cloth from JoAnn's Fabric, it could be less than $20, I believe.

A sheet of the WIlsonart laminate that people are getting from Home Depot should be very reasonable as well.

If you really want to watch movies in teh meantime, get it and find a way to set it up. If you really aren't going to set it up for six months, wait. (IMHO)

Best Regards,
Doug

Do you think that in six months you would be able to buy this projector for that price, even if something newer and better comes out? Wouldn't I at least be able to sell it for close to what I paid?



This is tough call that you have to make since youre being tempted by something that is a good price even though in your current situation it may not be the ideal purchase. To answer your question as to whether in six months you will be able to purchase this pj at aroundt this price, my answer is a resounding yes, as someone who has owned a few projectors in the past let me tell you that they are not good investments if your considering any real financial kickback when youre ready to move on, they are not much different than automobiles, once you drive them off the lot the depreciation starts ticking because you can only hope to recoup a satisfactory amount in the event of a sale but you will most likely not get back what you paid unless you bought at an incredible deal and not too much time has past for the law of diminishing returns to catch up. In 6 months we will be getting ready for Cedia and whatever you have will be worth even less.

I am waiting for the RS1 like everyone else. While I wait I would like to determine the best way to mount the projector. I have a 106 inch Diag Dalite Cinema Vision screen (1.3 gain) in a basement with totally controlled lighting. Ceiling is 7.5 ft high and I have the option to either mount the projector on the ceiling (15 or 16 feet back) OR place the projector on a shelf which is roughly 19 feet back. The shelf option would obviously be much easier (and the projector would be placed a little lower). I know that either way the distance falls within the range of the projector, however, I do not want to lose much brightness. Any suggestions?

i used to have my marantz vp8600 in the ceiling of the loft. people walk above and i sometimes saw the projector move (up and down from vibrations if someone sat up there) but not actually get out of align. do you think it would damage the rs1 if i had it up there the same way?

This thread, like all of the RS1 threads of late, has segmented itself into three catagories of posters...

1) Those griping about whatever feature it is that they wish to see included on
the RS1.

2) Those telling the posters from group 1 to quit griping.

3) Those who then jump in to say the gripers have valid gripes.

I am firmly in Group 2. Look through these forums, and there is literally no other projector constantly drawing whining about the features that it does not have. One glaring example of this is the fact that nobody is in the Pearl threads constantly whining that the Pearl doesn't have the ability for the end user to adjust the convergance as can be done on the RS1...

Now I perfectly understand discussion of issues as they come to light, as was the case when it was discovered that user adjustment/calibration features were possibly lacking and whether there would or would not be access to the LUTs.

But regarding the vertical stretch, for god's sake, give it a rest. Vertical stretch was NEVER said to be an included feature, and people just will not stop beating this dead horse.

THIS PROJECTOR DOES NOT OFFER VERTICAL STRETCH. NOBODY IS GOING TO PROMISE THAT IT WILL VIA A FIRMWARE UPDATE. If this is a dealbreaker for you, then don't buy the projector.

This is no longer an issue of asking for features during the development period...THE PROJECTOR IS DONE. IT HAS WHAT IT HAS.

For those of you here that have not been following the owners thread for the HD1 on the UK forums, they are routinely poking fun at this forum for the constant hand wringing and whining, and they are absolutely correct.

Now we've even had people who so enjoy whining constantly in this forum, enter into the owners review thread of the UK forum and attempt to start the same nonsense over there (I'm looking at you Mystery)...this, as could be expected, was not met with warmth by the UK posters. When Mystery then defended his right and reason for posting this nonsense in the UK owners review thread, the brits, polite folks that they are, cut him some slack, even though IMO it was undeserved...

It's really very simple...if you like the features that this projector DOES have, buy it. If you require features that this projector DOES NOT have, quit drowning these theads with your tears and move on for the sake of the sanity of those of us who have enough common sense to realize that no amount of crying will add additional features to a completed, and in some places, already delivered product.

End Rant.

Now someone from Group 3 needs to promptly put me in my place. :rolleyes:

End Rant.
Well said, hale fellow.

Bravo, units !!!

If you use Blockout cloth from JoAnn's Fabric, it could be less than $20, I believe. I made a screen with the drapery blackout fabric for my CRT and it has served me well. $20 is a reasonable price. It is a very uniform white, no hot spots and very wide viewing angle.

units,

This is typical of this forum and forums in general. When a person honestly has questions about a certain device such as this projector, people get defensive, think they're being slandered in some way or their judgement and personal preference maligned that they must then start to accuse the questioner of having ulterior motives.

Since you've called me out, I have no choice but to defend myself and remember. YOU STARTED IT! Anyone who cares to can go over to that other forum and read the thread in question and if they are open minded and objective will understand that I meant no harm to anyone and was sincerely irritated that a certain feature was lacking in this projector. IS THAT A CRIME! Perhaps la la land where you reside is political correctness heaven but free speech still reigns and if people wish to get their feelings hurt over honest questions then that's just too bad.

It's really getting to the point where no one can question anything about any item on this forum anymore without the rant police flashing their lights. I would like to have honest MATURE discussion that is civil in tone and allows all posters to speak their mind without the fear of being shamed into silence. Your feeble attempt to do this to me UNITS has failed. I've never trolled in this forum or any other and I don't intend to start now. Perhaps you have nothing better to do on a Sunday night but to stir up trouble. If you do not wish to engage in civil discourse then please put me on your ignore list. There are thousands of other posters who you then can find fault with and I'm sure this isn't the first time nor will it be the last.

You could have made your point without naming me specifically and I probably would have surmised that you meant me and would have left it at that. However, you have set me up as the poster boy to represent anyone and everyone who would 'GASP' dare to criticize this projector in any way.

It's trouble makers like you who give AVS Forum the reputation that it has over in the U.K. It's one thing to criticize an inanimate object, but to then rant about the person honestly criticizing an inanimate object, you decide to get personal.

You're wasting my time and not worth any more keystrokes.

May God help anyone who ever dares to bring up anything negative about this projector on any electronics forum. The wrath of UNITS and others of his ilk will come reigning down.

Thanks for making AVS such a friendly place UNITS.

Hello All from Canada's cold Arctic North!!

I have a home theatre and my own website as there is not much else to do at -40 during the long cold dark Arctic winter nights..or is there...... ;) Anyway you can check my site out @ http://frozen-toes-home-theatre.com I plan on testing and reviewing the RS1 when I receive mine in a couple of weeks. I will post my results here and up date my website as well at that time.

I have just gotten rid of my Optoma HD7100 DLP projector for good reason. It was a poorly engineered piece of crap, even though it threw a great picture when it managed to work. I have always loved LCD/LCOS/SXRD technology, however not the issues that came with them such as VB,colour uniformity, convergence, shading and poor native contrast ratios: The one thing that bothered me the most was dust blobs and that is why I moved to DLP.

It looks as if JVC has addressed all my concerns with this new projector, however I still wonder about the dust blob issue. Has anyone found any information on the panels and optical path of this projector? Are they sealed and will dust blobs be a problem for this projector? Has anyone had any issues with dust blobs yet, even though this unit is so new? The reason I ask is that I have just ordered mine and hope I have made the right choice, as my alternate was the BenQ W1000 DLP projector.

I thought the point of UNITS post was not that you brought up something negative, but that you and so many others keep repeating it after it has been posted a thousand times, and now the PJ is actually shipping. Its just so Old News.

btw: Just because some of these features don't require any additional hardware doesn't mean that its easy/cheap to implement. Software/firmware must be written and tested. That takes time and costs money like everything else.

I hope this doesn't sound like a rant, 'cause its not.

UpNorth: I have owned the JVC G15 and SX21 (and have the RS1 on order). I have never experienced the dust blob problem. I sure love the lcos picture.

I btw: Just because some of these features don't require any additional hardware doesn't mean that its easy/cheap to implement. Software/firmware must be written and tested. That takes time and costs money like everything else.

I hope this doesn't sound like a rant, 'cause its not.
If you assume that Sony is hot on JVC's heels, every month that this projector was delayed could have cost a lot of money in sales. The cost is really measured by a lot of factors and not just the cost of firmware. Delays of any sort limit the profits of any company right now making these types of products because of the short time the product is considered representative of current technology.

units,

This is typical of this forum and forums in general. When a person honestly has questions about a certain device such as this projector, people get defensive, think they're being slandered in some way or their judgement and personal preference maligned that they must then start to accuse the questioner of having ulterior motives.

Since you've called me out, I have no choice but to defend myself and remember. YOU STARTED IT! Anyone who cares to can go over to that other forum and read the thread in question and if they are open minded and objective will understand that I meant no harm to anyone and was sincerely irritated that a certain feature was lacking in this projector. IS THAT A CRIME! Perhaps la la land where you reside is political correctness heaven but free speech still reigns and if people wish to get their feelings hurt over honest questions then that's just too bad.

It's really getting to the point where no one can question anything about any item on this forum anymore without the rant police flashing their lights. I would like to have honest MATURE discussion that is civil in tone and allows all posters to speak their mind without the fear of being shamed into silence. Your feeble attempt to do this to me UNITS has failed. I've never trolled in this forum or any other and I don't intend to start now. Perhaps you have nothing better to do on a Sunday night but to stir up trouble. If you do not wish to engage in civil discourse then please put me on your ignore list. There are thousands of other posters who you then can find fault with and I'm sure this isn't the first time nor will it be the last.

You could have made your point without naming me specifically and I probably would have surmised that you meant me and would have left it at that. However, you have set me up as the poster boy to represent anyone and everyone who would 'GASP' dare to criticize this projector in any way.

It's trouble makers like you who give AVS Forum the reputation that it has over in the U.K. It's one thing to criticize an inanimate object, but to then rant about the person honestly criticizing an inanimate object, you decide to get personal.

You're wasting my time and not worth any more keystrokes.

May God help anyone who ever dares to bring up anything negative about this projector on any electronics forum. The wrath of UNITS and others of his ilk will come reigning down.

Thanks for making AVS such a friendly place UNITS.

First, feel better now? :rolleyes:

Second, yes, I realize that you were "sincerely irritated that a certain feature was lacking in this projector", and I also understand that you have been merely "criticizing an inanimate object"...believe me, we all get it. The fact that you and others continue to constantly do so in this forum is, at best, tiresome. The fact that you feel so comfortable doing so in a UK forum clearly marked as being for reviews by owners of the HD1, quite honestly, confounds me.

Third, if you cannot handle being "called out" on what you have posted, it seems to me you may be a bit too thin-skinned to be posting on public forums. In any case, I would encourage you to exercise a bit of a sense of composure, as it would be a shame for this long running thread to be closed due to unfortunate tantrums.

Regards.

May God help anyone who ever dares to bring up anything negative about this projector on any electronics forum. Absolutely fine to bring it up. I've gained a lot knowing what the RS-1 lacks. Being on the pre-buy list, I really appreciate it. But enough with the again and again and again stuff already.

You're wasting my time and not worth any more keystrokes.
I completely agree!

What else can I do? I want to spend about $5,000 max, need to get as much CR as a CRT television(ie, or to the point I can't tell), and close to 100". . . What I do mind is getting a digital and while saying "wow, these colors are fantastic and sharpness is incredible" but at the same time, "damn it, why can't I see the alien in the darkness have its head pop out like I can see on my CRT!"
Reio-ta,

You've asked questions in several posts. I can answer some of them.

Regarding setting the RS1 to 7500K instead of D65. You will get an increase in brightness at 100 IRE. Black will remain at the same level of brightness regardless. This is why you will get a higher on/off CR. This is also why one would expect there to be no significant difference in ANSI CR. ANSI is limited by reflections in the lens and light engine. If anything, I would expect that the ANSI CR test would show lower numbers, not higher, however I have never actually thought to make such a measurement.

The reason that setting the PJ to 7500K yields more light is that the mercury based lamp used in the RS1 produces too much green and blue light compared to D65. When the PJ is set to D65 this excess blue and green light is not displayed by the PJ when creating images. When set to 7500K, it is displayed. The price one pays is inaccurate color. IMO, you would be able to detect the color inaccuracy, but not the small increase in CR. This same situation applies to virtually every digital PJ made, whether they use xenon or mercury lamps. Almost all of them can be made brighter at 100 IRE if set to an inaccurate mode. The RS1 is not unique in this regard. None of us ISF calibrators would recommend this. Making a display color accurate virtually always reduces max brightness and max on/off CR compared to the max the display can do.

Regarding how well the RS1 does with shadow detail compared to a CRT monitor: The achilles heel of digital projection has been high black levels and inferior rendition of shadow detail compared to CRTs. However, in many other areas of performance, digital PJs have been superior to CRTs for some time now. The RS1 is in the same ballpark as a reference CRT monitor when it comes to Black level. As far as the rendition of shadow detail, the prototype RS1 was as good as or better than the best digital PJs I have seen. (It showed more shadow detail than the Sharp 20K, which was displayed next to it.) It was close to what one sees on a good CRT monitor. Provided that JVC has not changed the gamma tables, the production version will be the same. JVC told me that the gamma table used in the pre-production version was going to be one of the gamma selections in the production version. IMO, this PJ is going to be equal to or superior to the best CRT PJs in virtually every PQ parameter.

You have expressed a lot of concern about brightness level and appropriate screens. You mentioned 100" screen size. You have nothing to worry about. A 100"D screen is 49"X87". It is 29.6 sq ft in area. If you mount the RS1 20 ft from the screen (2.8 times the screen width of 87") and put it in low lamp, you can expect about 400 lumens according to several sources. On a 1.1 gain screen this will yield almost 15 fL. You can expect about 15K:1 on/off CR. You can still boost brightness by about 20% by engaging high lamp mode.

You also mentioned your tight budget. In a fixed frame, the Carada BW is one of the few screens that comes close to fitting in your budget. It is rated at 1.4 gain. I have measured this screen with my spectroradiometer. With a ceiling mounted PJ, I measure it at 1.1 gain. It has exceptional color accuracy, and brightness and color uniformity. It's velvet lined frame is equal in size and beauty to my Stewart screen. It is simple to install. One caveat: its high uniformity is a disadvantage in a room with white ceiling and walls. (In this case, I would recommend the Stewart Firehawk, which is triple the price.)

Another screen that is near your budget is the Da-Lite High Power, rated at 2.8 gain with a shelf mounted PJ. When coupled with a ceiling mounted PJ (mounted 16% the screen's height above the screen surface) I measure it at 1.17 gain, but this is going to vary depending on how high/low you mount it. It is available in fixed screen or pull-down. It is acceptably color accurate. It is almost perfect in terms of color and brightness uniformity. It has a wide viewing cone. The folks that have posted contradictory statements regarding its uniformity in the configuration that I have listed, are just flat out ignorant about this screen. I challenge them to back up their statements with facts by listing the measurements they have taken of this screen with a ceiling mounted PJ. (Don't forget to measure the PJ's uniformity first, so that you can subtract it from your screen measurements.)

Some folks have reported an occasional sparkly on the HP. I don't know. Typically a sparkly will disappear from view if you shift your seating (or your head) to the side by an inch or less. The Firehawk is known to have this problem occasionally, and I have seen it on my own screen. I have read recommendations to color them over with a soft lead pencil on the Firehawk, but have never had cause to do this personally. As far as eliminating them on the HP, Da-Lite may have some recommendations. I don't know.

Brightness uniformity measurements taken from the eyes of a viewer in the prime seat and from a seat 45% off center. Ceiling mounted PJ 2X screen widths away from screen:

SCREEN_____GAIN AT________REDUCTION AT___SCREEN CENTER FROM
___________SCREEN CENTER__SCREEN EDGE___SEAT AT 45% ANGLE

ST 130______1.3___________-25%___________-40%
BW_________1.11__________-7%____________-29%
HP__________1.17__________0%____________-36%
VUTEC PW____1.84_________-33%___________-65%
FH__________1.14_________-48%___________-71%

Measured color shift in x/y imparted by the screen measured at the same positions listed above for uniformity.

SCREEN___COLOR SHIFT AT___COLOR SHIFT AT__COLOR SHIFT FROM
_________SCREEN CENTER___SCREEN EDGE_____SEAT AT 45% ANGLE

ST 130____-.0007/+.0013____+.0043/+.0049____-.0007/-.0033
BW_______-.0017/+.0003____+.0003/+.0019____-.0027/+.0003
HP_______+.0023/+.0043____+.0013/+.0049____+.0013/+.0033
VUTEC PW_+.0003/+.0003____+.0003/+.0023____+.0003/+.0013
FH________-.0027/-.0007_____-.0057/-.0041_____-.0091/-.0077

The ISF requires calibration equipment to have a color accuracy within .0040 in x and y in measuring D65. All the screens listed above meet that same standard when measured in the center from the eyes of the prime viewer. The BW and the PW meet it in all the configurations measured. The ST and the HP deviate only a small amount beyond that when measured in certain configurations.

I have measured 20-30 different screen samples. The screens listed above are not the only ones to perform well, but they are some of the best. I listed the Firehawk because it is not very uniform, yet in a white HT it will yield a better image (higher on screen contrast) than any of the others. I have experience with full screens of the ST, BW, and FH. I have only seen 2'X2' samples of the HP and PW.

In general, don't be misled by those who wring their hands over screen brightness uniformity. If you have to use a gain screen to get the proper brightness level, do it. Don't settle for too dim an image. I have experience with a lot of people seeing actual images on hot-spotting screens and almost no one notices with actual video. I fact, I am the only one I know personally who notices, and I only notice occasionally with actual video.

I've gone to considerable effort to determine which screens are the most uniform. So you might conclude that it is important to me. I recommend using the most uniform screens that fit the bill. However, if a non-uniform gain screen is what is required in your HT, you will likely be happy as a clam with it. Whereas you will not be happy with too dim an image, or with replacing a $500 lamp at frequent intervals. Or in the past you could always settle for a brighter PJ that has one half to one third the CR. With the RS1 those compromises don't have to be made, unless you want a pretty large screen. Then you need a higher gain screen. You owe it to yourself to see these before you reject them out of hand and settle for something less than what you desire.

Glenn

I am waiting for the RS1 like everyone else. While I wait I would like to determine the best way to mount the projector. I have a 106 inch Diag Dalite Cinema Vision screen (1.3 gain) in a basement with totally controlled lighting. Ceiling is 7.5 ft high and I have the option to either mount the projector on the ceiling (15 or 16 feet back) OR place the projector on a shelf which is roughly 19 feet back. The shelf option would obviously be much easier (and the projector would be placed a little lower). I know that either way the distance falls within the range of the projector, however, I do not want to lose much brightness. Any suggestions?

Gordon, I would imagine that the ceiling mount would be more convenient--since it's more out of the way, without people blocking it when they walk by--provided that your screen works well with a ceiling mount (which I think it does). I will be mounting my RS1 on a stand just behind the viewers because I will be using a HiPower screen, which does not do as well with a high location. Otherwise, I would prefer a ceiling mount.

Reposting Glenned's tables with better formatting.


SCREEN GAIN AT REDUCTION AT SCREEN CENTER FROM
SCREEN CENTER SCREEN EDGE SEAT AT 45% ANGLE
-----------------------------------------------------------
ST 130 1.3 -25% -40%
BW 1.11 -7% -29%
HP 1.17 0% -36%
VUTEC PW 1.84 -33% -65%
FH 1.14 -48% -71%



SCREEN COLOR SHIFT AT COLOR SHIFT AT COLOR SHIFT FROM
SCREEN CENTER SCREEN EDGE SEAT AT 45% ANGLE
------------------------------------------------------------
ST 130 -.0007/+.0013 +.0043/+.0049 -.0007/-.0033
BW -.0017/+.0003 +.0003/+.0019 -.0027/+.0003
HP +.0023/+.0043 +.0013/+.0049 +.0013/+.0033
VUTEC PW +.0003/+.0003 +.0003/+.0023 +.0003/+.0013
FH -.0027/-.0007 -.0057/-.0041 -.0091/-.0077

Glenned: Excellent post! Early on I was convinced that I wanted to go with a FH screen because my room is a den with mixed color surfaces. Unforutnately, though, I've gotten hooked on wanting pretty big screen, at least 119" diag, and most likely 126" (I presently have a 73" Mits 1080p rptv, so why go FP unless going significantly bigger?). So even though I would be pleased with the FH's light absorbing characteristics, I think it will just be too dim with the RS1 on this size screen. So I've arranged to mount the pj on a stand just behind our heads so that a HiPower will be optomized, and should thus generate 30 to 40 ftL with a new lamp; this is the way I will deal with ambient light, i.e., the 'plasma' mode!

Millerwill - what 119 or 126" will you be using? I just don't see how you will get 30-40 ftl with that size screen unless you have gain of 3 or more.

Millerwill - what 119 or 126" will you be using? I just don't see how you will get 30-40 ftl with that size screen unless you have gain of 3 or more.

A Dalite HiPower: 119" diag screen, e.g., is 42 ft^2. So even with the RS1 is 'normal', i.e., low lamp mode, which gives ~575 lumens, one has 575*2.8 (gain)/42 = 38 ftL; and in high lamp mode with 700 lumens, it gives 47 ftL. The 126" diag screen is 47.4 ft^2, and the numbers then change to 34 and 41 ftL.

Anyone who cares to can go over to that other forum and read the thread in question and if they are open minded and objective will understand that I meant no harm to anyone and was sincerely irritated that a certain feature was lacking in this projector. IS THAT A CRIME!I think you're letting this fellow get to you a bit much. Better to let people like him get it out of their system, and move on. It's enough that the topics in question which some people choose to be offended by nonetheless enjoy a certain degree of meritable discussion between others. I'm pleased that these forums are still mature enough to accomplish that. (Well, except for the Blu-ray Software forum, evidently.)

Glen,

Superb post!

The two screens I'm considering most (with the JVC HD/RS1) are the Carada BW and the Firehawk. Something that interests me about your measurements: the Firehawk appears to have a teeny bit more gain over the Carada BW. So this confuses me a little as to how it would translate into the actual, subjective impact of those two screens in terms of brightness.

Over and over I keep reading of people who've ordered the Carada brilliant white who have remarked about the fantastic "pop" to the picture and beautiful colors. You don't get many people saying that about the Firehawk and many poo-poo the firehawk as being more likely to cause a dimmer image. But the gain on the Firehawk seems higher.

So how does this play out in real world scenarios? (All other things being equal). Would the Firehawk actually look equally as bright and vivid as the Carada? (But with the better light rejection and contrast?). Or is this where the different color of those screens shows up?

Thanks.

How many video memories does this projector have ????

units,

This is typical of this forum and forums in general. When a person honestly has questions about a certain device such as this projector, people get defensive, think they're being slandered in some way or their judgement and personal preference maligned that they must then start to accuse the questioner of having ulterior motives.

Since you've called me out, I have no choice but to defend myself and remember. YOU STARTED IT! Anyone who cares to can go over to that other forum and read the thread in question and if they are open minded and objective will understand that I meant no harm to anyone and was sincerely irritated that a certain feature was lacking in this projector. IS THAT A CRIME! Perhaps la la land where you reside is political correctness heaven but free speech still reigns and if people wish to get their feelings hurt over honest questions then that's just too bad.

It's really getting to the point where no one can question anything about any item on this forum anymore without the rant police flashing their lights. I would like to have honest MATURE discussion that is civil in tone and allows all posters to speak their mind without the fear of being shamed into silence. Your feeble attempt to do this to me UNITS has failed. I've never trolled in this forum or any other and I don't intend to start now. Perhaps you have nothing better to do on a Sunday night but to stir up trouble. If you do not wish to engage in civil discourse then please put me on your ignore list. There are thousands of other posters who you then can find fault with and I'm sure this isn't the first time nor will it be the last.

You could have made your point without naming me specifically and I probably would have surmised that you meant me and would have left it at that. However, you have set me up as the poster boy to represent anyone and everyone who would 'GASP' dare to criticize this projector in any way.

It's trouble makers like you who give AVS Forum the reputation that it has over in the U.K. It's one thing to criticize an inanimate object, but to then rant about the person honestly criticizing an inanimate object, you decide to get personal.

You're wasting my time and not worth any more keystrokes.

May God help anyone who ever dares to bring up anything negative about this projector on any electronics forum. The wrath of UNITS and others of his ilk will come reigning down.

Thanks for making AVS such a friendly place UNITS.

Hip Hip...Hooray!!!!....Great post!...And now that you cleared that up, why doesn't this so-called "great" unit have vertical stretch?...Why doesn't it have power zoom/focus?...Why is it said that this projector performs best upsidedown ceiling mounted verses table or flat mounted?...Plus, it's kinda on the loud side compared to some of the other, ah-hem..."lesser" projectors... :)

I don't like the color. How short-sighted of them to not make it available in different colors to match our decors! I demand that they implement my request in the next firmware upgrade. :rolleyes:

Hip Hip...Hooray!!!!....Great post!...And now that you cleared that up, why doesn't this so-called "great" unit have vertical stretch?...Why doesn't it have power zoom/focus?...Why is it said that this projector performs best upsidedown ceiling mounted verses table or flat mounted?...Plus, it's kinda on the loud side compared to some of the other, ah-hem..."lesser" projectors... :)


I have never heard the upside down ceiling mounted theory. I think you made that one up :p But seriously what is your point, that the RS1 is not perfect? If you are looking for an argument you must pick a different subject. I dont think anyone would claim the RS1 is perfect, however by all acounts so far, it is closer to perfect than any other unit at or anywhere near its price point. ALL projectors have compromises including the RS1. Overall, considering I cant do 1 chip DLP, there is nothing else that can compete with it right now. The new C2 fine units (Panny 1000, Mits, Epson) are nice from what I have seen, but they all have big performance issues in key PQ areas that the RS1 does not appear to have. They all have horrible native CR, they all have a light crippling DI, etc....The mits has a very noticable DI, the Panny in its most accurate mode (cinema 1) has pathetic lumens (also looses more light compared to RS1 the further the throw), etc....

The main USER complaints with the HD1 so far are slightly louder fan.....and a few compatibility issues which any projector will have. I am glad there is no power zoom, focus, shift as this certainly kept cost down for a feature I will use maybe 2-3 times the entire time I own the RS1. Plus, I feel you can get better focus with a manual focus and the aid of a 2nd person ;) Vertical stretch is a non issue for me, as I cant do CH in my room, but if you needed it, it is easy enough to throw in a VP. I could go on, but the point is while all these units are nice, NONE of them are perfect, but the RS1 is much closer to perfect in the areas that affect PQ. The other guys simply cant compete OVERALL with the RS1 when you consider 15000:1 native NO DI CR, better blacks, brighter at D65 (much brighter than the Panny 1000). Just my opinion though, and I respect yours :)

What projector do you own?

I own three actually. They are all Panasonics...I have the PTAE1000U, the 900U and the 700U. Pretty much stuck with them in favor of reliability...They have all been great and none have caused me any grief. (lucky I guess)...The PTAE1000U has pretty darn good blacks and the PQ is pretty darn good. The JVC I'm sure is a good unit, but I really think some folks on here are getting a bit carried away with what they think it will do. If you have to go side by side to tell any vast difference in a projector, to me, well, that's just flushing money down the toilet. I "have" really heard that the JVC needs to be ceiling mounted or put in an upside down position for some reason...I will find out more and post here...I will post if it's BS or if it is a fact. The person I learned this from is a Master TV tech and does Calibration on projectors in my area.

chucken, you feel the AE1000U has good enough blacks and contrast that you'll stick with it vs the JVC, for now at least?

I own three actually. They are all Panasonics...I have the PTAE1000U, the 900U and the 700U. Pretty much stuck with them in favor of reliability...They have all been great and none have caused me any grief. (lucky I guess)...The PTAE1000U has pretty darn good blacks and the PQ is pretty darn good. The JVC I'm sure is a good unit, but I really think some folks on here are getting a bit carried away with what they think it will do. If you have to go side by side to tell any vast difference in a projector, to me, well, that's just flushing money down the toilet. I "have" really heard that the JVC needs to be ceiling mounted or put in an upside down position for some reason...I will find out more and post here...I will post if it's BS or if it is a fact. The person I learned this from is a Master TV tech and does Calibration on projectors in my area.


Nice! Glad you found a projector that you like :) That is all that really matters. I understand your feelings on the JVC hype, but it seems justified from what little I have seen of it TBH. Enough so that I felt it was worth the wait, and also to be without a projector the last few months.

I personally have not had the best experience with Panasonic. I just returned an AE900 to Costco last December for a number of small reasons, most of which had to do with the build quality which is cheap IMHO. My sub would constantly knock the damn thing out of focus, zoom, shift which I have not had a problem with before with other units in my HT. Also dont care for smoothscreen at all. The lumens in my cave of a theater were also barely cutting it for my tastes. I could go on.....

I have seen the Mits (which I thought looked great), Panny 1000 (looked good, but not bright enough for my needs, seemed similar to the 900 as far as lumens.) and the RS1 (on a table, proto). They all looked good, but the RS1 was clearly a step up in all areas, even without a side by side demo. The blacks were noticably better to my eyes, brighter, noticably better depth, more vibrant whites/colors. It was not a night and day difference of course compared to the Panny and Mits, but definately a noticable step up. It should be though considering it is a fair bit more than either of those units.

These are just my finding though, and not at all trying to bash the Panny as I thought it looked great in general.

Enjoy! ;)

The JVC I'm sure is a good unit, but I really think some folks on here are getting a bit carried away with what they think it will do. If you have to go side by side to tell any vast difference in a projector, to me, well, that's just flushing money down the toilet. I "have" really heard that the JVC needs to be ceiling mounted or put in an upside down position for some reason...I will find out more and post here...I will post if it's BS or if it is a fact. The person I learned this from is a Master TV tech and does Calibration on projectors in my area.

Surely you believe that a LOT of people have seen the RS1/HD1 in action. You dont disbelieve them all, do you? I understand you like your panasonic PJ, but we are talking about measured numbers (by many independent sources) and very many personal observations/experiences versus what you "heard" from your "Master TV Tech."

Are you on the RS1 preorder? Or are you planning on seeing one in action somewhere to make your BS/fact determination?

To be honest, the RS1 does sound too good to be true to me, too. But after having so many respected people run it through its paces and offer their opinions regarding wht they saw and then reading the reviews from owners in UK, I am pretty confident that its going to put out what has been advertised.

The PTAE1000U has pretty darn good blacks and the PQ is pretty darn good.[U] The JVC I'm sure is a good unit, but I really think some folks on here are getting a bit carried away with what they think it will do.

I dont doubt the integrity of your subjective evaluation of the Panasonic PJ. If you look at the reviews by Ekkehart and by Ultimate AV, though, you will find objective analysis of what they actually measured regarding the RS1.

Additionally, there is a ton of subjective observation from owners of the HD1 which seem to corroberate those findings over at www.avforums.com.

I "have" really heard that the JVC needs to be ceiling mounted or put in an upside down position for some reason...I will find out more and post here...
Chukken makes this stuff up. Like from a post on 2/12/07:
I have read reviews from reviewers who have seen both and the Panny holds up pretty well against it according to these folks.
When challenged to produce such a review he said:

I will go find the review from Home Theater Magazine and post it here...

When further challenged to produce results:

"All I found over at Home Theater Magazine was a 109 word "coming attractions" blurb. What am I missing?"

He went silent. He never produced any review of any sort to back up his original contention... ever.

No doubt this will play out the same way. Look at the diagram of lens shift and projector placement in the RS-1 manual. There is no requirement to invert the projector.

This thread, like all of the RS1 threads of late, has segmented itself into three catagories of posters...

1) Those griping about whatever feature it is that they wish to see included on
the RS1.

2) Those telling the posters from group 1 to quit griping.

3) Those who then jump in to say the gripers have valid gripes.

Well, actually, units' post just added another category:

4) Those posters who analyse the number of categories in a thread.

Disclaimer: I believe this post is a category (4) post and so the number of categories remains at 4. It would be irresponsible to gratuitously add yet another category with the sole purpose of bumping the category count in order to confound serious category (4) posters. However, if the moderators determine that this post is not in fact a category (4) post then I respectfully request that it be deleted.

Brent

It's too bad this thread has gone so far down the toilet, there is (was?) a good amount of useful information here. It's gotten to the point where it's laborious and almost not worth reading this anymore because you have to dredge through all the BS, AT conversation, and babble. :(

OK, add one more category... those who are patiently waiting for their pre-ordered RS1 to arrive without adding to the speculation of it's capabilities/incapabilities.

It's too bad this thread has gone so far down the toilet, there is (was?) a good amount of useful information here. It's gotten to the point where it's laborious and almost not worth reading this anymore because you have to dredge through all the BS, AT conversation, and babble. :(

Problem is there's not much more that can be said about the RS1 until those here get one in their hands later this month.

VirusKiller have you heard any updated info from JVC on adding 1080p60->1080p24 judder removal?No.

Do I have a category?

When I preordered, it was expected (though not entirely confirmed) that there would have been a vertical stretch implemented.

Now that there is not a vertical stretch, while not really blaming or feeling the need to complain, I do not know what to do.

Not needing a separate VP made it a slam dunk decision to switch from my Pearl at the preorder price.

Now I am not so certain what to do. I was thinking that I would sell the Pearl, buy an RS1, and get a VP after giving some time to make sure they do not issue a firmware upgrade, (which I really do not expect them to...). Last night, in preparation to sell my Pearl, I went to take pictures of my Pearl's white field, as well as convergence. While playing the test patterns over my HiPix I went ahead and played one of the Hockey games from the 2002 Olympics that had been stored in HD and some of the Janet Jackson Superbowl in HD.

After that, I just don't see much reason to switch. They looked really great.

I think that most pearl owners are not really complaining, because they see what a great picture they get ( of course no picture is perfect). Also, we never expected to get VS without a VP in the Pearl.

Once the people here actually have an RS-1, I bet they will not be whining much anymore. But I also bet, that after a few months, they will be wishing for VS, whether they whine or not.

I don't know... , but if the VS were in the RS1, it would make my decision very easy, since I want to go CIH now, more than ever before, and the extra expense of an external VP adds to the total cost of CIH.

I am still hoping that JVC might do a firmware upgrade, although I do not expect them to. I am hoping that it might expand their market over the product's lifetime enough that they feel it might be justified.

I would not know where to suggest this, other than here, at this forum. Some might consider that whining? ( I do consider some of the other comments whining, and am not entirely sure that I have not whined in the past... :) )

Doug

Problem is there's not much more that can be said about the RS1 until those here get one in their hands later this month.
Idle keyboards do the devil's work. :)

Problem is there's not much more that can be said about the RS1 until those here get one in their hands later this month.

I thought that some UK end users had their projectors and are members here. Get cracking guys, we want to hear what you think first hand!

When I preordered, it was expected (though not entirely confirmed) that there would have been a vertical stretch implemented.

Now that there is not a vertical stretch, while not really blaming or feeling the need to complain, I do not know what to do.
I think this is a case wishin' and hopin' and wild speculation somehow seeming like reality. It was never "confirmed" in any way, at least not by anybody associated with JVC. And no one else would ever be in a position to confirm it.

I have just discovered that the HD1 overscans (by a full 2.5%) 480i/p and 576i/p via HDMI, as well as component*. There is no way of turning it off. :( It's personal preference, but as far as I'm concerned, the SD processing is next to useless**. I'm investigating external video processors and upscaling DVD players as alternate solutions.

On a positive note, I can confirm that it looks as if 720p and 1080i are not overscanned. My HD film (1080i60) and video (1080i50) feeds look superb.

Is that a bit more thorough from someone in the UK? :D :rolleyes:


* Verified with 480i, 480p, 576i, 576p from my Oppo 970 and with 480p from my Tosh HD-XA1, using the overscan test patterns in Avia (NTSC) and DVE (PAL).

** The discussion on 3:2 cadence judder removal is now academic. What would be the point of 480i60 --> 1080p24 processing when the input image is overscanned?

I think this is a case wishin' and hopin' and wild speculation somehow seeming like reality. It was never "confirmed" in any way, at least not by anybody associated with JVC. And no one else would ever be in a position to confirm it.


While never confirmed, as late as in January,Tom Stites (JVC VP) advised on these boards (possibly on this thread) that he would NOT rule out vertical stretch being implemented before release OR with a firmware upgrade after release. I believe he, or maybe it was someone else with JVC - Bart or Gary, went on to state that several had requested to engineering that the feature be added before, or after, release.

** The discussion on 3:2 cadence judder removal is now academic. What would be the point of 480i60 --> 1080p24 processing when the input image is overscanned?
Even if SD processing was useless, 60i -> 24p is still very useful for HD processing. Actually I'm not watching any SD content, anymore, anyway.

Even if SD processing was useless, 60i -> 24p is still very useful for HD processing. Actually I'm not watching any SD content, anymore, anyway.

Yeah, with the exception of LOTR or Star Wars, me neither. 8)

Yeah, with the exception of LOTR or Star Wars, me neither. 8)
I love LOTR, but 'll wait for LOTR in HD before watching it again. Star Wars I - VI was already broadcasted in glorious H.264 (1080p25 with 18Mbps average bitrate!) here in Germany. Not yet HD DVD / Blu-Ray quality, but near enough to be very enjoyable... :)

While never confirmed, as late as in January,Tom Stites (JVC VP) advised on these boards (possibly on this thread) that he would NOT rule out vertical stretch being implemented before release OR with a firmware upgrade after release. I believe he, or maybe it was someone else with JVC - Bart or Gary, went on to state that several had requested to engineering that the feature be added before, or after, release.
Well, there's where the "wishin' and hopin' " turned "not ruling it out" and "several had requested" into it being "expected."

I think this is a case wishin' and hopin' and wild speculation somehow seeming like reality. It was never "confirmed" in any way, at least not by anybody associated with JVC. And no one else would ever be in a position to confirm it.


I can't remember exactly what was said by whom, so I do not want to quote, but there was at the very least, a decent measure of reassurance that it was very likely to happen.

I would have not gotten on the preorder list at that time, if not but for a real expectation that this feature was to be added.

I am glad that you agree with me that it was not confirmed, :) but I am not necessarily certain that no one else would ever be in a position to confirm it.

There are many features on my Pearl that were never confirmed by Sony, but other people had confirmed, and lo and behold, the features were there when I got the projector.

I am not angry or whining, especially since it might all be for the best for me, anyway. If it had not been for the expectation of that feature, I would currently not have the luxury to ponder and decide.

Doug

I have just discovered that the HD1 overscans (by a full 2.5%) 480i/p and 576i/p via HDMI, as well as component*. There is no way of turning it off. :(This is actually a little reassuring to me, believe it or not. It's a pretty major fault, and one which will probably garner some significant condescending scrutiny. Yet at the same time it's probably something that is fixable with a non-hardware update. And if JVC chooses to revisit the HD1 to the point of modifying the software in any capacity, then perhaps one or two of the other items people are clamoring for will be given due consideration as well.

I think this is a case wishin' and hopin' and wild speculation somehow seeming like reality. It was never "confirmed" in any way, at least not by anybody associated with JVC. And no one else would ever be in a position to confirm it.


Well, there's where the "wishin' and hopin' " turned "not ruling it out" and "several had requested" into it being "expected."


I am not wanting to turn this into a Clintonian style semantic debate as to what the definition of "expected" is or isnt so ill leave that alone. 8)

Wishin' and hopin' might apply to what people were expecting from JVC based on what Tom Stites said, but the wild speculation part sure doesnt seem to.

Personally, I dont see anything wrong with the appeal for more features on a product that is about to be released, or even is already released. Im intending to buy a Lumagen HDQ for my RS1 but I would love to see a definite yes or no on vertical stretch (hopefully) before I do.

It doesnt seem unreasonable to me that JVC could still get vertical stretch implemented on the RS1 specially since Tom said he would NOT rule it out when I asked him specifically in January if the vertical stretch issue was dead with the JVC. It would be nice if they can confirm for us if this is a feature in development for the PJ or if its been scrapped off of consideration. 8)

There is word that Sharp might now be getting 1080/24 input implemented on the Sharp 20k, and its been out for months. It wouldnt be the first to have something implemented after launch and Im sure it wouldnt be the last.

How many video memories does this projector have ????

Anyone ?? I will have multiple HDMI sources going through one switcher, so I want to know how many separate memories the RS1 has.

Thx !!

Anyone ?? I will have multiple HDMI sources going through one switcher, so I want to know how many separate memories the RS1 has.

Thx !!
The manual has the information in it.
There are 6 image profiles, 3 predefined (which you can edit) and 3 user profiles.

Anyone ?? I will have multiple HDMI sources going through one switcher, so I want to know how many separate memories the RS1 has.

Thx !!

It has 3 "user" memories.


Dazzer

This is actually a little reassuring to me, believe it or not. It's a pretty major fault, and one which will probably garner some significant condescending scrutiny. Yet at the same time it's probably something that is fixable with a non-hardware update. And if JVC chooses to revisit the HD1 to the point of modifying the software in any capacity, then perhaps one or two of the other items people are clamoring for will be given due consideration as well.


I would agree that this is a major fault, as this is something a lot of people will use. I just hope JVC will back up the RS1 with proper support and fix this issue. Definately before the US launch hopefully. I would love to hear from tstites or anyone else at JVC if they are reading as to what the plan is for issues that arise like this. Is it easy enough to send out a firmware upgrade that the user can do themselves? If not, the other PJ alternatives are starting to look a bit more appealing.

I have just discovered that the HD1 overscans (by a full 2.5%) 480i/p and 576i/p via HDMI, as well as component*. There is no way of turning it off. :( It's personal preference, but as far as I'm concerned, the SD processing is next to useless**. I'm investigating external video processors and upscaling DVD players as alternate solutions.

On a positive note, I can confirm that it looks as if 720p and 1080i are not overscanned. My HD film (1080i60) and video (1080i50) feeds look superb.

Is that a bit more thorough from someone in the UK? :D :rolleyes:


* Verified with 480i, 480p, 576i, 576p from my Oppo 970 and with 480p from my Tosh HD-XA1, using the overscan test patterns in Avia (NTSC) and DVE (PAL).

** The discussion on 3:2 cadence judder removal is now academic. What would be the point of 480i60 --> 1080p24 processing when the input image is overscanned?

In the middle of all the whining, speculation, and wishful thinking going on in this thread, we actually get a post with some useful information! Thanks VirusKiller!

Any way you look at it, this is NOT good news. So much for the idea of sending a 480i signal from my Pio Elite 59avi via HDMI to the RS1! :(

I believe there was another display that had a very similar issue (overscan with 480 signals, but not 720p or 1080i), but I can't recall which one it was.

I would assume there is no overscan with a 1080p source either, but perhaps I shouldn't assume anything. VirusKiller, do you happen to have a way to test a 1080p output signal for overscan?

In the middle of all the whining, speculation, and wishful thinking going on in this thread, we actually get a post with some useful information! Thanks VirusKiller!

Any way you look at it, this is NOT good news. So much for the idea of sending a 480i signal from my Pio Elite 59avi via HDMI to the RS1! :(

I believe there was another display that had a very similar issue (overscan with 480 signals, but not 720p or 1080i), but I can't recall which one it was.

I would assume there is no overscan with a 1080p source either, but perhaps I shouldn't assume anything. VirusKiller, do you happen to have a way to test a 1080p output signal for overscan?

Yeah the more I think about it, the more this sucks. I was not even thinking about PS2 and Wii games which will surely be affected by this. :(

I hope JVC can chime in with some sort of good news (like a fix before the US launch, please).

This is big news. :(

I also was planning on sending 480i...

I have the RS-1 on pre-order. When I ordered it I had just bought a new house in Denver and was going to be using it in a dedicated home theater. Well, now I am no longer moving and we are selling the house. It may be a few months before we can sell it and another few months before we by a new house. The room I am using now is really to small and I would only be able to get a screen about maybe 7'-8' wide. When I buy my new house I am planning on having a dedicated theater much bigger than I have now, so buying a screen now is not something I want to do. So, I need to decided if I go ahead and get the RS-1 and stick it in a closet for the next 6 months, or do I just cancel my order and see what's out when I get my new house? The pre-order was such a good deal that I really don't want to cancel. What's do others think about this?

I don't think you have given us enough information to help you with your decision. Cancel ... and do WHAT? Not watch movies for 6 months? Use some (not specified) existing projector? Buy some *other* (not specified) pj? And how important is $X to you (where X is the pre-order price) compared to the cost of those other unspecified options?

paul

I have just discovered that the HD1 overscans (by a full 2.5%) 480i/p and 576i/p via HDMI, as well as component*. There is no way of turning it off. :( It's personal preference, but as far as I'm concerned, the SD processing is next to useless**. I'm investigating external video processors and upscaling DVD players as alternate solutions.

On a positive note, I can confirm that it looks as if 720p and 1080i are not overscanned. My HD film (1080i60) and video (1080i50) feeds look superb.

Is that a bit more thorough from someone in the UK? :D :rolleyes:


* Verified with 480i, 480p, 576i, 576p from my Oppo 970 and with 480p from my Tosh HD-XA1, using the overscan test patterns in Avia (NTSC) and DVE (PAL).

** The discussion on 3:2 cadence judder removal is now academic. What would be the point of 480i60 --> 1080p24 processing when the input image is overscanned?

This is disappointing to hear. I'm using an external VP so it doesn't really affect me, but hopefully JVC will offer a SW upgrade to fix this problem.

I have just discovered that the HD1 overscans (by a full 2.5%) 480i/p and 576i/p via HDMI * Verified with 480i, 480p, 576i, 576p from my Oppo 970 and with 480p from my Tosh HD-XA1, using the overscan test patterns in Avia (NTSC) and DVE (PAL). Viruskiller,

When you do this and see the 2.5% overscan, take a look in the setup menu at masking. What does it indicate? 2.5% or Off? Does it change in the menu depending on the signal you send it? This seems peculiar since the note in the manual says that "masking is only available when high definition images are input."

Here's a possible workaround: use a player/source/VP that can process those SD formats to 1080i or 1080p. In 1080i (be sure that setup masking is set to Off), the Gennum will deinterlace to 1080p. If 1080p, the Gennum is going to pass the signal in native form (no scaling).

What's the big deal w/the overscan?

Surely nothing important is happening at the very edge of the image.

Is it that it means it's not pixel perfect?

In any case, what's the image quality like w/480i/HDMI input?

What's the big deal w/the overscan?

Surely nothing important is happening at the very edge of the image.

Is it that it means it's not pixel perfect?



That's exactly my understanding. Not being pixel perfect can lead to artifacts.

Someone correct me if I am wrong.

I have just discovered that the HD1 overscans (by a full 2.5%) 480i/p and 576i/p via HDMI, as well as component*.

Any idea if it does the same thing with S-Video and/or composite inputs (thinking laserdisc here.....)?

That's exactly my understanding. Not being pixel perfect can lead to artifacts.

Someone correct me if I am wrong.
Isn't overscanning a relic associated with, um . . "scanning" and no longer needed?

Although its disappointing to hear, the scaling at 480i will not affect everyone. For instance in my case I'll be using the Toshiba XA2 to upconvert any SD DVDs, and other than that I'll be feeding X360 via component at 1080i and Comcast at 720p/1080i.

Hey now that I think about it - can someone with the HD1 check to see if this overscan issuei is present when sending a 720p signal?

What's the big deal w/the overscan? Pixel perfect is desirable for the sake of maximum resolution. Are there things you don't want to see out there at zero overscan? Sometimes there are with some signals. That's why overscan exists. The ideal scenario is to be able to choose to mask/overscan if we see a problem at zero underscan. We (or at least I) like our displays to be good monitors, capbable of delivering all the information. When a VP is used, the pj is put into pixel perfect mode, then input size and output size is specifically adjusted in the VP to achieve the amount of masking/overscan (if any) is appropriate to the source/input. No dis on Viruskiller, but I think some more experimentation/verification might be in order regarding the masking feature in the HD-1/RS1 relative to his observation.

Although its disappointing to hear, the scaling at 480i will not affect everyone. For instance in my case I'll be using the Toshiba XA2 to upconvert any SD DVDs, and other than that I'll be feeding X360 via component at 1080i and Comcast at 720p/1080i.

Hey now that I think about it - can someone with the HD1 check to see if this overscan issuei is present when sending a 720p signal?



The top post in on this page by VirusKiller claims overscan is NOT an issue on 720p/1080i.

Isn't overscanning a relic associated with, um . . "scanning" and no longer needed?
It depends. In my experience with a SDI modded DVD player and an external VP there are quite a number of DVDs which are not encoded with full 720x576 pixels, but which have some black borders. Some DVDs are full 720x576, some have small borders, some big borders. And SD TV very often has small or big black borders and sometimes even "garbage" on the borders. A normal display overscans by 3-7% and removes all those borders. So even today some amount of overscanning still makes sense.

However, since some DVDs and especially because game consoles don't have any black borders, it's important that we're able to turn overscan off, because otherwise we're losing precious image content.

VirusKiller's problem is not that there is overscan. The problem is that it can't be turned off.

It depends. In my experience with a SDI modded DVD player and an external VP there are quite a number of DVDs which are not encoded with full 720x576 pixels, but which have some black borders. Some DVDs are full 720x576, some have small borders, some big borders. And SD TV very often has small or big black borders and sometimes even "garbage" on the borders. A normal display overscans by 3-7% and removes all those borders. So even today some amount of overscanning still makes sense.

However, since some DVDs and especially because game consoles don't have any black borders, it's important that we're able to turn overscan off, because otherwise we're losing precious image content.

VirusKiller's problem is not that there is overscan. The problem is that it can't be turned off.

Exactly. I am thinking about gaming as well, particularily the Wii and PS2. As long as it can be turned off all is well, which at this point it cant apparently. This would surely be an easy fix I would have to think? :confused:

3% overscan seems to be the industry standard. Who actually watches the 1.5% of any edge if a movie? With a 110" screen, we are talking about 1.4" off the left/right. Seems that with all that real estate on the screen if something were important in the picture, it will not be in the outer 1.5% of the image. It is a technical thing, edge of the picture = edge of screen, but in reality overscan covers broadcast/mastering errors.