No, although I'm sure Wm will offer his services for the RS1 when it's released.

Hopefully we won't need wm's service on the RS1 - but if there are shading issues (my only concern), it's a good warm fuzzy feeling to know he's there! :)

Re: RS1:
Well ...I guess that’s it for a while as far as obtaining any new info or having any more eye-witness reports turn up. That is until CES. That will be the next big event. Hopefully the JVC team will have a more finalized model on display. Maybe even a production line unit. Anyway - time to go into a holding pattern. That is unless Tom or Lon feed us some more info in the mean time (please keep us informed!) :D

Jay,
I also have a 10' wide screen with approximately the same gain as the GrayHawk (0.95 gain Screen Research CP2). I am on the pre-order list for the RS1. Most individuals on this Forum will state that the RS1 will have inadequate light output for this screen. With lamp aging, it is true that SMPTE requirements will not be met, however, I disagree that the image will seem dim. I have been using relatively low light output projectors that are if anything less bright than the RS1. The very high contrast of the RS1 should make it seem brighter than my previous projectors, and in addition, the lack of a DI should also help with the apparent brightness of the RS1 in all but the brightest scenes. By my calculations we should get somewhere around 12 ft-lamberts with a fresh lamp. This will in all likelihood drop to 6-8 ft-lamberts within a few hundred hours of time on the lamp. In a dark room, this is still very watchable. I suspect that this is as bright as the majority of setups used by AVS members. After all, most single chip DLP projectors have significantly lower light output than the RS1.

Scott,

I totally agree - almost jumped in to respond to your first post but I wasn't sure if I wanted to get in the middle of the brightness debate. I'm glad you are going to be trying it out!

Jay

Hopefully we won't need wm's service on the RS1 - but if there are shading issues (my only concern), it's a good warm fuzzy feeling to know he's there! :)


Yes this is my sentiments too. I'm hopeful that the factory RS1 cal will be "good enough" especially with regards to shading.


Re: RS1:


One last question for you John. What did you think of the comment that another poster said about the D65 color on the RS1? The comment was that it was way off and had a golden tint. When I initially saw the Sharp and RS1 side by side I thought that the RS1 looked warm, but after viewing it I realized that this was because the Sharp was cold (blue). Some of the outdoor scenes in U-571 also have a warm/goldish tint to them because they were filmed with the sun lower in the sky and the combination of the two seemed to me anyway to explain the warm look. Thoughts?

I was under the impression that the grey screens were invented to improve poor black levels and contrast ratios. With the RS1, why would anybody dull the picture with a grey screen? I think you want matte white or a high gain screen if you don't have perfect lighting conditions.

Generally speaking there are other benefits to a gray screen. For instance the Firehawk is very good at rejecting ambient light and reflections from the walls and ceiling. In my case I have total light control from outside light but the room does give off quite a bit of reflections back to the screen. It is my understanding that the Firehawk is helpful in these cases.

Did we get a definitive answer on what type of color management system the RS1 will have? Will it enable us to set true colors according to Rec 709 like the Sharp/Yamaha allow? Or will it be more like the Ruby/Pearl where you cannot get the "real" control necessary. For instance Greg mentions in his Pearl review that the pj lacks individual controls for the brightness and some other value (saturation maybe?) which prevents dialing these settings in properly.

JVC - if you are listening this type of color management system is critical for obtaining proper color- please make sure we have the controls to dial things in. Thanks.

I saw something that said JVC confirmed there would be parameters in the menus that enable us to shift r/g/b separately by 1 pixel increments. That is great.

However I was wondering if these controls will enable us to shift it different amounts and only for specific regions of the display. For instance, say the top right is off by a pixel but the center is fine. If the entire grid has to shift by a pixel then that would defeat the purpose of adjusting it, because now the center would be off by a pixel...

One last question for you John. What did you think of the comment that another poster said about the D65 color on the RS1? The comment was that it was way off and had a golden tint. When I initially saw the Sharp and RS1 side by side I thought that the RS1 looked warm, but after viewing it I realized that this was because the Sharp was cold (blue). Some of the outdoor scenes in U-571 also have a warm/goldish tint to them because they were filmed with the sun lower in the sky and the combination of the two seemed to me anyway to explain the warm look. Thoughts?

I've seen U-571 (those exact same scenes) on many different projectors and displays. Seems to be used a lot for testing. I thought the picture was slightly warm (which I prefer). And which was confirmed when I saw the internal gray scale test image that the RS1 displayed. I noticed no goldish tint at all.

I was also impressed by the total lack of VB (vertical banding) in the underwater (greenish) scenes. Very clean and smooth.

Lastly - this was the first time the long-shot of the submarine sitting on top of the water really looked like a model! Took me right out of the movie for a second. My friend Edward commented on this too. Geeeeze. Maybe projectors have gone too far w/ their increased clarity and resolution! :eek:

When I initially saw the Sharp and RS1 side by side I thought that the RS1 looked warm, but after viewing it I realized that this was because the Sharp was cold (blue). Some of the outdoor scenes in U-571 also have a warm/goldish tint to them because they were filmed with the sun lower in the sky and the combination of the two seemed to me anyway to explain the warm look. Thoughts?

I also noticed this too, and wondered how this scene looked on your HD2K.

anyone had the chance to ask if 1-1 pixel mapping with no cropping is available from PC. I would really like to use the PJ for Browsing and other data apps.
Also having 1-1 pixel mapping allow our video processor to have full control over the 1080 panel..... Tom any input??

I also noticed this too, and wondered how this scene looked on your HD2K.

I haven't watched U-571 often but I have the HD-DVD so I'll take a look. I find it hard to watch U-571 after watching a truly great submarine movie like Das Boot. It also doesn't help that it has Harvey Keitel in it who I used to know.. but I digress :) At any rate I'll take a look again soon, but I have to wait until my VP is fixed :(


I noticed no goldish tint at all.


But it did seem warmer than D65 to you? I find it very difficult to draw conclusions when two displays are side by side and one is noticeably off (the Sharp in this case). By itself, the HD10K looked absolutely perfect as far as color goes and I would have thought that if JVC could get D65 dead on with the HD10K that they would do the same with the RS1. I also looked carefully at the fleshtones in the underwater scenes and it looked accurate to me.

Did we get a definitive answer on what type of color management system the RS1 will have


Unfortunately the primaries are fixed so there is no true color management system.

if these controls will enable us to shift it different amounts and only for specific regions of the display

Zonal adjustments aren't possible, the full panel is shifted.

It also doesn't help that it has Harvey Keitel in it who I used to know.. but I digress :) .

Best Judas ever. :D

Best Judas ever. :D

I don't get it ?

[QUOTE=Mark Petersen]I haven't watched U-571 often but I have the HD-DVD so I'll take a look. I find it hard to watch U-571 after watching a truly great submarine movie like Das Boot. It also doesn't help that it has Harvey Keitel in it who I used to know.. but I digress :) At any rate I'll take a look again soon, but I have to wait until my VP is fixed :( [END QUOTE]


U-571 is pretty cheezy. Especially when compared to Das Boot. Which I believe (IMHO) to be the greatest submarine movie ever made. Unfortunately, while the U-571 DVD (and HD-DVD) are reference quality (visually and audibly) - Das Boot leaves much to be desired. Maybe it will be re-mastered on HD-DVD someday. :)

[QUOTE=Mark Peterson]
But it did seem warmer than D65 to you? I find it very difficult to draw conclusions when two displays are side by side and one is noticeably off (the Sharp in this case). By itself, the HD10K looked absolutely perfect as far as color goes and I would have thought that if JVC could get D65 dead on with the HD10K that they would do the same with the RS1. I also looked carefully at the fleshtones in the underwater scenes and it looked accurate to me.[END QUOTE]

Maybe slightly warmer than D65. Grayscale had a little red push going on at the very brightest end of the scale - but the fleshtones looked good. Hard to say. Would love to see it again w/ a fresh pair of eyes. Gut feeling tells me it could have looked even better w/ an accurate calibration. Which brings up:

Yes - that HD10K was a sight to behold. Colors were stunning. Grayscale was impeccable. Plenty sharp. Deeper blacks - and it would have been perfection. At least for me. Makes you wonder how much better the Phelped MF1 would be (reviewed by Bill Cushman this month in Widescreen Review) Hey - if the RS1 wasn't on the horizon - I might be taking out a second mortgage soon. (Although my wife might have something to say about that) :eek:

I don't get it ?

He played Judas in "The Last Temptation of Christ".

Gary

Beat me to it. Its a Scorsese flick

Unfortunately the primaries are fixed so there is no true color management system.

Why does this have to be the case. Is this inherit with LCoS and SXRD technologies (Ruby and Pearl are the same way too). So what does this mean when it comes to calibration? I assume like others before it the RS1 will be a bit oversaturated and we can only use some various tricks to minimize this? Why fix the primaries?

Why does this have to be the case. Is this inherit with LCoS and SXRD technologies (Ruby and Pearl are the same way too). So what does this mean when it comes to calibration? I assume like others before it the RS1 will be a bit oversaturated and we can only use some various tricks to minimize this? Why fix the primaries?

Even if the primaries are fixed, there is still plenty of adjustability to make sure the color tracking is fine and whites are at D65. The color primaries define the endpoints for a projector inside the CIE colorspace which in turn defines the gamut of colors that are available. Color management systems in a projector are fairly new and whats really most important is that the color primaries are wide enough to accurately represent Rec 709 (HD colorspace).

I haven't looked deeply into the color management scheme used on other projectors but I assume that they use a wide color gamut (wide color primaries) to begin with and then digitally process the input signal in such a way as to create virtual primaries that are narrower than the physical primaries that are optically determined in the projector. Once they've created this new virtual colorspace (which is a subset of the maximum colorspace), they can then shift it around inside of the original colorspace by manipulating the new end points (new primaries).

Regarding the possible 2.35:1 CH vertical stretch. Will there be the ability to not only stretch but to horizontally squeeze for 1.85:, 1.75:1, and 1.33:1 with a CH setup. I hate having to move the lens out of the way. Plus this will save me from having to buy an external scaler for my HD DVDs. I still use my HTPC + theatertek for SD DVD.

Jay,
I also have a 10' wide screen with approximately the same gain as the GrayHawk (0.95 gain Screen Research CP2). I am on the pre-order list for the RS1. Most individuals on this Forum will state that the RS1 will have inadequate light output for this screen. With lamp aging, it is true that SMPTE requirements will not be met, however, I disagree that the image will seem dim. I have been using relatively low light output projectors that are if anything less bright than the RS1. The very high contrast of the RS1 should make it seem brighter than my previous projectors, and in addition, the lack of a DI should also help with the apparent brightness of the RS1 in all but the brightest scenes. By my calculations we should get somewhere around 12 ft-lamberts with a fresh lamp. This will in all likelihood drop to 6-8 ft-lamberts within a few hundred hours of time on the lamp. In a dark room, this is still very watchable. I suspect that this is as bright as the majority of setups used by AVS members. After all, most single chip DLP projectors have significantly lower light output than the RS1.

I agree.

I spent 6 hours with a Sony Qualia 004 at a fellow AVSer's HT this last weekend. The PQ was fantastic. His calibrator was present as well (also an AVSer). I was surprised to hear that they were only getting slightly more than 7 ftL off the 133" screen!

Best Judas ever. :D

That's also what his girlfriend at the time said :eek:

Okay on to more savory discussion lol....


but the fleshtones looked good. Hard to say. Would love to see it again w/ a fresh pair of eyes


Yup I'd like to see it again especially without a blueish projector sitting next to it. Yet another reason to attend CES :)

Well, seems like we've entered the silly period; not unexpected after all the high-powered info on the RS1 of the last 4-5 days. It has really been breath-taking. So we will tread water until the CES in Jan. Happily, I will be there, hopefully to see the production version of the RS1. In a few weeks we need to start bugging Tom Stites about the precise location of where the RS1 will be shown in Las Vegas.

With the BenQ W10000 info all out now--and eliminated as a possibility for me because of the long throw--the only thing that I can see that might compete with the RS1 (at least for my affections) is if Samsung/Joe Kane showed a 1080p version of the Sammy 710 that had a short throw and lens shift, and the fine PQ of the 710 (and without its bugs). Would be a nice surprise.

Regarding the possible 2.35:1 CH vertical stretch. Will there be the ability to not only stretch but to horizontally squeeze for 1.85:, 1.75:1, and 1.33:1 with a CH setup.

thats a very interesting question. Even assuming that JVC adds the ability to use an anamorphic lens with the projector, will it have the ability to scale for all of the other aspect ratios without removing the lens. At the show went I spoke with the JVC guys, I asked them about the scaling option but it never occured to ask about this part of it

Any reason why JVC did not use the Realta HQV processor already used in the HD10K, and instead has gone with Gennum?

Originally Posted by FrancescoP
Question: does the JVC DLA-RS1 accept 1080p VGA input from the Xbox 360?
(The Pearl doesn't... this may be a selling point for me).

From reading through various threads it seems that the RS1 will not be able to accept 1080p through the VGA input, bummer for Gamers like myself. I hope this is not the case. A selectable color-space option (PC levels or Video levels) for the inputs would be nice to.

Any reason why JVC did not use the Realta HQV processor already used in the HD10K, and instead has gone with Gennum?

The Gennum is cheaper and from my reading easier to implement with roughly the same results. Better bottom line..

Even if the primaries are fixed, there is still plenty of adjustability to make sure the color tracking is fine and whites are at D65. The color primaries define the endpoints for a projector inside the CIE colorspace which in turn defines the gamut of colors that are available. It doesn't affect saturation only the extreme range (gamut) of colors that are available. Color management systems in a projector are fairly new and whats really most important is that the color primaries are wide enough to accurately represent Rec 709 (HD colorspace).

I haven't looked deeply into the color management scheme used on other projectors but I assume that they use a wide color gamut (wide color primaries) to begin with and then digitally process the input signal in such a way as to create virtual primaries that are narrower than the physical primaries that are optically determined in the projector. Once they've created this new virtual colorspace (which is a subset of the maximum colorspace), they can then shift it around inside of the original colorspace by manipulating the new end points (new primaries).

My understanding is that to properly dial in color to the target color space such as Rec 709, one needs control over the brightness, saturation, and hue for all six of the colors individually. It does not sound like the RS1 will offer this capability which is concerning. Greg raised similar issues with regards to the Pearl and its lack of such controls.

My understanding is that to properly dial in color to the target color space such as Rec 709, one needs control over the brightness, saturation, and hue for all six of the colors individually. It does not sound like the RS1 will offer this capability which is concerning. Greg raised similar issues with regards to the Pearl and its lack of such controls.

I'm confused, by six colors do you mean the 3 primaries and 3 secondaries? Also, brightness (luminance) isn't really part of the CIE colorspace it's usually considered to be the Z dimension in the x,y CIE plane. There are many projectors that have excellent color reproduction like the HD10K that don't have a color management system so I wouldn't be too worried about it. I'm more worried about the quality and spread of the physical primaries which determines the full color gamut. I may be mistaken, but I don't think a color management system can correct for the physical primaries being suboptimal. Bottom line though I agree with you that a color management system would be nice.

The forthcoming Lumagen RadianceXG video processor has primary color correction in its advertised feature set.

I'm confused, by six colors do you mean the 3 primaries and 3 secondaries? Also, brightness (luminance) isn't really part of the CIE colorspace it's usually considered to be the Z dimension in the x,y CIE plane. There are many projectors that have excellent color reproduction like the HD10K that don't have a color management system so I wouldn't be too worried about it. I'm more worried about the quality and spread of the physical primaries which determines the full color gamut. I may be mistaken, but I don't think a color management system can correct for the physical primaries being suboptimal. Bottom line though I agree with you that a color management system would be nice.

Yes, I am referring to RGBCYM. I think its a given these days that just about every pj by default provides a color gamut that is quite a bit wider than Rec 709. So to account for this oversaturation, adjustments are necessary.

Here's Greg's quote from the Pearl review I am referring to:
"I hoped that the RCP function would
allow the primary colors to be set to the
Rec. 709 and Rec. 601 standards, but that
was not the case because it doesn’t provide
independent brightness and saturation
adjustments for the colors.
Because the primary colors are more
saturated than the Rec. 601 or Rec. 709
standard, flesh tones occasionally appeared
too red. A good alternative to reducing the
Color saturation setting, which affects all
colors, is to lower the intensity of the red
primary slightly, using the RCP function."

I am hoping JVC provides us with real color management controls so that such things can be adjusted correctly. So even though the brightness does not fall on the CIE diagram, individual control over both the Brightness and Saturation are necessary to properly dial in the colors...

Yes, I am referring to RGBCYM. I think its a given these days that just about every pj by default provides a color gamut that is quite a bit wider than Rec 709. So to account for this oversaturation, adjustments are necessary.

I am hoping JVC provides us with real color management controls so that such things can be adjusted correctly. So even though the brightness does not fall on the CIE diagram, individual control over both the Brightness and Saturation are necessary to properly dial in the colors...

I think we're in agreement that we want to have accurate color on the RS1. Color management isn't going to be included though. Sony has always been known for a red push owing to an oversaturated red primary. It'll be interesting to see how it turns out. Also, fwiw I'm not so sure that all projectors these days provide a color gamut wider than Rec. 709 (especially with green). I know Wm and others have posted the measured HD10K primaries for example and they were close.

...Color management isn't going to be included though...

Right - and that is what I'd like to see JVC reconsider. Proper color is so critical I do not understand why they would omit the feature necessary to dial it in as desired. Because this feature is also missing from the Ruby and the Pearl, I'm wondering if this is much more difficult with LCoS than DLP. At any rate, I bring this up because I hope JVC will reconsider and add the necessary features.

Just noticed in the Optoma HD81 review on Projector Central that the HD81 is spec'ed at 1400 lumens with a calibrated output of 655 lumens. It is called a very bright 1080p projector. It has been stated on this forum that the JVC has 700 calibrated lumens as indicated by JVC personnel. If that is true, then the JVC may be just as bright or brighter than the HD81. I currently have a DWIN TV3+ with advertised 1200 lumens. I use it at the long throw distance to a 110 inch wide .95 screen and am lucky if it has 600 calibrated lumens (new bulb), although I have never measured the actual lumen output. Does anyone on this thread know what the typical TV3+ calibrated lumen output is at long throw? I have the JVC on order with Jason. BTW- I have been happy with the brightness in my current setup (fully light controlled).

Is there any information on how well the grayscale tracks on the RS1?

On my Ruby I was able to calibrate D65 with a dE from 0-3 from 10-100 IRE with still only 8 dE at 5 IRE. I'm hoping to be able to achieve similar results on the RS1 without things falling apart (relatively speaking) at 100 IRE or below 20 IRE as they do on many other displays.

Just noticed in the Optoma HD81 review on Projector Central that the HD81 is spec'ed at 1400 lumens with a calibrated output of 655 lumens. It is called a very bright 1080p projector. It has been stated on this forum that the JVC has 700 calibrated lumens as indicated by JVC personnel. If that is true, then the JVC may be just as bright or brighter than the HD81. I currently have a DWIN TV3+ with advertised 1200 lumens. I use it at the long throw distance to a 110 inch wide .95 screen and am lucky if it has 600 calibrated lumens (new bulb), although I have never measured the actual lumen output. Does anyone on this thread know what the typical TV3+ calibrated lumen output is at long throw? I have the JVC on order with Jason. BTW- I have been happy with the brightness in my current setup (fully light controlled).

I would be very cautious about comparing brightness numbers from different sources. All the values I've seen from PJC, on all the pj's they've reviewed, have been lower than anyone elses; consistent, but lower. Guitarman, who works closely with Optoma, reported 950 calibrated lumens for the HD81, and one might expect that to be a bit high. This is another reason why Jason's reviews of BOTH of these pj's will be so useful, to have a direct comparison by the same reviewer. My guess is that the HD81 will come in somewhere between 700 and 950, and thus probably be ~150 lumens (at most) brighter than the RS1 (which is expected to come in somewhere between 700-800). So I agree with the sentiment of your post, namely that the HD81 is not all that much brighter than the RS1 (or the Pearl, for that matter).

Just noticed in the Optoma HD81 review on Projector Central that the HD81 is spec'ed at 1400 lumens with a calibrated output of 655 lumens. It is called a very bright 1080p projector. It has been stated on this forum that the JVC has 700 calibrated lumens as indicated by JVC personnel. If that is true, then the JVC may be just as bright or brighter than the HD81.

The brightness of the JVC will surprise a lot of people who have misconceptions about true D65 lumens. It's been interesting to see how the forum comments about the RS1 have been changing over time as people start to recognize this point. Initially everyone was saying, "only 700 lumens?" and now people are starting to realize that this is actually pretty bright for a typical sized home theater. In fact as I've been saying all along, my biggest worry is that it's too bright on my 110" ST130.

EDIT: I see Millerwill and I were thinking along the same lines..

I also think people might put a little too much emphasis on high ftl. I'm guessing there are a lot of users that are getting way less ftl then they think and they are quite happy with their picture.

The brightness of the JVC will surprise a lot of people who have misconceptions about true D65 lumens. ....., my biggest worry is that it's too bright on my 110" ST130.

Mark, more along these lines: this will be my first FP (I'm on Jason's JVC list!], and coming from an RPTV, brightness has been a major concern. I've been influenced by many of Tryg's post ['there is no such thing as too bright''!), and am thus planning to shoot for ~40 ftL with the new lamp; i.e., a 119" to 126" diag HighPower. I've consoled myself that if this is too bright, I can use the low lamp mode. But am I overdoing it? IS there such a thing as 'too bright'?

Miller-

Tryg is a high ftl cheerleader. Nothing wrong with that but there are some that prefer much lower ftl then that. You'll have to be your own judge but I think you'll be suprised how much lower you can go and still have an awsome picture.

I also think people might put a little too much emphasis on high ftl. I'm guessing there are a lot of users that are getting way less ftl then they think and they are quite happy with their picture.


I agree.

As I recently posted elsewhere, I spent 6 hours with a Sony Qualia on a 133" screen, and the PQ was superb. I was very suprised when I was told we were only getting 7 ftl from the screen!

Just noticed in the Optoma HD81 review on Projector Central that the HD81 is spec'ed at 1400 lumens with a calibrated output of 655 lumens. It is called a very bright 1080p projector. It has been stated on this forum that the JVC has 700 calibrated lumens as indicated by JVC personnel. If that is true, then the JVC may be just as bright or brighter than the HD81. I currently have a DWIN TV3+ with advertised 1200 lumens. I use it at the long throw distance to a 110 inch wide .95 screen and am lucky if it has 600 calibrated lumens (new bulb), although I have never measured the actual lumen output. Does anyone on this thread know what the typical TV3+ calibrated lumen output is at long throw? I have the JVC on order with Jason. BTW- I have been happy with the brightness in my current setup (fully light controlled).

I have the Dwin TV3 too. Unfortunately, there were never any quality professional reviews of this PJ that would tell us what the D65 calibrated lumens actually are. My guess, however, is that it is pretty low, and the JVC will be quite a bit brighter.....not to mention a near 10 fold increase in contrast! :)

I have the Dwin TV3 too. Unfortunately, there were never any quality professional reviews of this PJ that would tell us what the D65 calibrated lumens actually are. My guess, however, is that it is pretty low, and the JVC will be quite a bit brighter.....not to mention a near 10 fold increase in contrast! :)

With these responses and my own mathematical guesstimates as to lumens and ftl, I have convinced myself thaty the RS1 will be brighter than my current TV3 and come with significantly more CR. Just need to verify the RS1 calibrated lumens when that information becomes available. I look forward to my own RS1.

Mark, more along these lines: this will be my first FP (I'm on Jason's JVC list!], and coming from an RPTV, brightness has been a major concern. I've been influenced by many of Tryg's post ['there is no such thing as too bright''!), and am thus planning to shoot for ~40 ftL with the new lamp; i.e., a 119" to 126" diag HighPower. I've consoled myself that if this is too bright, I can use the low lamp mode. But am I overdoing it? IS there such a thing as 'too bright'?

Velvetpoet is dead on. Its a matter of personal preference and the environment of a persons HT (brightness of walls, ambient light, etc.). Some people like high gain screens some don't. You may want to do what I did which is to buy a high power and try it out for awhile (they are a bargain price as far as screens go). The High Power elevates the brightness quite a bit but it also elevates the black point (blacks become more grey). Even worse I found that the high ft-L on the HP increased overall ambient lighting in my HT which reduced the ANSI CR. You should also get screen samples and see what you like best. I have samples for an Ultrastar, ST130, Firehawk and Ultramatte and I eventually picked a ST130 and have been really happy with it although it's best suited for a well light controlled room (which mine is).

Mark, more along these lines: this will be my first FP (I'm on Jason's JVC list!], and coming from an RPTV, brightness has been a major concern. I've been influenced by many of Tryg's post ['there is no such thing as too bright''!), and am thus planning to shoot for ~40 ftL with the new lamp; i.e., a 119" to 126" diag HighPower. I've consoled myself that if this is too bright, I can use the low lamp mode. But am I overdoing it? IS there such a thing as 'too bright'?


You may not achieve your 40 ftL with the HighPower screen depending on your mounting position. There is a drop off in gain at different viewing angles. Not only side to side but for ceiling mounted PJ to your eyes (angle). Draw a picture of your theater from the side and compute the angle. The high power is nice but I don't like the brightness change with movement around the room, like getting up for a coke.

Also 40 ftL may lead to eye strain on such a large screen. I try to shoot for 25 ftL.

K

Mark-
I was curious with your thoughts about using a high gain with the rs-1.

From your reports it sounded like even in the light controlled room contrast wasn’t reaching its max because of the rope lighting. I kind of got the impression that it might be really hard to get the max contrast.

So I was thinking a high power will elevate the blacks and the whites but this might be the only way to achieve the max contrast in a lot of set ups.

What are your thoughts?

Also I'm not sure if you clarified this or not but was the unit being showed showing 10k or 15k contrast? You said more on this later and I might have missed your post.

Mark-
I was curious with your thoughts about using a high gain with the rs-1.

From your reports it sounded like even in the light controlled room contrast wasn’t reaching its max because of the rope lighting. I kind of got the impression that it might be really hard to get the max contrast.


Yup, 15000:1 will redefine the meaning of the term "light controlled" for most digital users. The setup at the Expo was about the best I've ever seen at a tradeshow, but it still wasn't nearly as good as what most people can achieve at home (as far as light control goes). Even stil though, I think most people will still be able to get to the black level floor with this projector on their home theaters if they squelch most of their light sources (LEDs, etc.).


So I was thinking a high power will elevate the blacks and the whites but this might be the only way to achieve the max contrast in a lot of set ups.


Interesting idea, but I don't really agree unless a person has trouble squelching out all of the light sources in their HT. It's more than just on/off CR though, the RS1 is going to provide high ft-L on an average size screen (with average gain) and a big problem is going to be ANSI CR reduction from room reflections. Using a high power will make it even worse.


Also I'm not sure if you clarified this or not but was the unit being showed showing 10k or 15k contrast? You said more on this later and I might have missed your post.

I didn't measure it but it definitely wasn't realizing it's maximum CR due to the rope lighting. Ignoring the rope lighting, it wouldn't surprise me to find out that the prototype is yielding only 10000:1 right now because it is an early prototype and I don't think that the optical block has benefited from the latest improvements that resulted in the revised 15K:1 spec. This is just speculation though. JVC does seem very confident that the production units will be better although by how much and in what area is an open question.

Thanks Mark =)

The brightness of the JVC will surprise a lot of people who have misconceptions about true D65 lumens. It's been interesting to see how the forum comments about the RS1 have been changing over time as people start to recognize this point. Initially everyone was saying, "only 700 lumens?" and now people are starting to realize that this is actually pretty bright for a typical sized home theater. In fact as I've been saying all along, my biggest worry is that it's too bright on my 110" ST130.




As I prefer the lowest range of footlamberts (12-15) for film viewing, I only need around 500 D65 lumens. So I was worried as well that it might be too bright for my 106" w/1.0 gain. Glad to verify that it has a low-bulb setting. I'll definitely be using that setting - at least till the bulb ages.

I also think people might put a little too much emphasis on high ftl. I'm guessing there are a lot of users that are getting way less ftl then they think and they are quite happy with their picture.

I completely agree. I for one really prefer a very bright and punchy picture. Recently I discovered that I was actually getting just 193 lumens from my Ruby and 7.5ftL. I was really surprised by this - would have guessed I was getting at least TWICE that.

If the JVC does turn out to deliver 700 lumens @ D65 regardless of throw, then this pj will certainly be the brightest one I have ever owned and will actually be a big step up in this regard - while at the same time also being a big step up in terms of on/off and ANSI CR.

Mark, et al--thanks for the replies. Unlike probably most of you (I think), my room is not the ideal, 'bat cave' HT, but rather a small (13x17) den; I can exclude external light to a very large degree, but the walls/ceiling are off-white (though with lots of 'stuff' on the walls, pics, rugs, etc.). Also, my JVC will be set up on a stand just behind and above viewers (my wife and I, kids are grown), so will be ideal for the HP and its narrow viewing cone.

Velvetpoet's comment was especially interesting, for in my room, compromised by reflected light (that I hope the HP's narrow cone will help moderate), I will never realize the super CR that the JVC is capable of. [That's another question: should I just get the Mits 5000 since I'm not going to get great BL anyway?!] So the fact that the HP raises the BL may not really matter. And the fact that it also raises the WL, it may actually achieve a BETTER CR (this is my version of Tryg's argument).

But you are certainly right, I will just have to try the HP and see how I like it. I have seen one on several occasions [at Noah Katz' house, at Guitarman's house] and liked them on those occasions. All the choices, of course, is what makes all this so much fun!

Mark, et al--thanks for the replies. Unlike probably most of you (I think), my room is not the ideal, 'bat cave' HT, but rather a small (13x17) den; I can exclude external light to a very large degree, but the walls/ceiling are off-white (though with lots of 'stuff' on the walls, pics, rugs, etc.). Also, my JVC will be set up on a stand just behind and above viewers (my wife and I, kids are grown), so will be ideal for the HP and its narrow viewing cone.

Velvetpoet's comment was especially interesting, for in my room, compromised by reflected light (that I hope the HP's narrow cone will help moderate), I will never realize the super CR that the JVC is capable of. [That's another question: should I just get the Mits 5000 since I'm not going to get great BL anyway?!] So the fact that the HP raises the BL may not really matter. And the fact that it also raises the WL, it may actually achieve a BETTER CR (this is my version of Tryg's argument).

But you are certainly right, I will just have to try the HP and see how I like it. I have seen one on several occasions [at Noah Katz' house, at Guitarman's house] and liked them on those occasions. All the choices, of course, is what makes all this so much fun!

You could always put on a NDx2 or NDx4 filter to cut the light (in half or in quarter respectively) and then remove it as the bulb aged. Otherwise the reflected light may be too much and put a major damper on your ANSI CR as you mention. Or you could consider a screen in the 1.5-ish gain realm.

Really I must say that I love a bright and punchy picture, but after recently discovering that what I thought was "plenty bright and punch" was only 7.5ftL, I think aiming for 40ftL may be a bit over the top. :)

"Color management isn't going to be included though..."

I'm scratching my head about all this "color management" talk.

I don't have nearly the depth of understanding as a lot of you, but tell me what I'm missing in my thinking.

The "real" primaries are optical and determined by the filters selected by the mfgr.

After that it's all a matter of the available electronic adjustments of their relative proportions.

So the only way there wouldn't be adequate "color management" is if there weren't low-IRE and high-IRE adjustments for R/G/B, which I thought were common.

Is this too simplistic?

Thanks

my room is not the ideal, 'bat cave' HT,

Light colored walls in theory won't kill your on/off CR - only your ANSI CR. In most movies complete blackout scenes (on/off) are rare though and it's the low APL scenes (ansi) that are more common.

One thing that the high power has going for it is that it's retro-reflective so the light hits the screen and is reflected back towards the projector rather than against the walls. The retro-reflective nature allows it to reject ambient light too, but other screens (like a Firehawk) can do this without having such a high gain.

As you can see I'm in the same camp with John Ballentine as far as preferred ft-L goes.

You could always put on a NDx2 or NDx4 filter to cut the light (in half or in quarter respectively) and then remove it as the bulb aged. Otherwise the reflected light may be too much and put a major damper on your ANSI CR as you mention. Or you could consider a screen in the 1.5-ish gain realm.

Really I must say that I love a bright and punchy picture, but after recently discovering that what I thought was "plenty bright and punch" was only 7.5ftL, I think aiming for 40ftL may be a bit over the top. :)

As someone mentioned elsewhere, it's too bad that the JVC doesn't have an adjustible (not dynamic) iris that one could use rather than an ND filter.

I've also considered a Firehawk (with the JVC ceiling mounted), but a 119"FH (G3) would generate 'only' ~ 20 ftL, going down to 10 at 50% lamp; and I just afraid that this may be too dim. As I said, I'm coming from an RPTV (73" Mits 1080p) and am just fearful of an FP that is only viewable in the bat cave. For movies at night, the room will be completely dark (except for reflected light), but on the weekend afternoons, while dark, it will be more like TV.

Velvetpoet is dead on. Its a matter of personal preference and the environment of a persons HT (brightness of walls, ambient light, etc.). Some people like high gain screens some don't. You may want to do what I did which is to buy a high power and try it out for awhile (they are a bargain price as far as screens go). The High Power elevates the brightness quite a bit but it also elevates the black point (blacks become more grey). Even worse I found that the high ft-L on the HP increased overall ambient lighting in my HT which reduced the ANSI CR. You should also get screen samples and see what you like best. I have samples for an Ultrastar, ST130, Firehawk and Ultramatte and I eventually picked a ST130 and have been really happy with it although it's best suited for a well light controlled room (which mine is).

I was under the impression that high gain screens actually improve ANSI contrast because of their directional nature. (retroreflective will reflect light off walls to the same wall and angular to the opposite wall instead of to the viewer) Also I can't see how a HP screen can increae the amount of light reflected into the room. It doesn't create any extra light it just changes the direction it is reflected off the screen. I would think the sidewalls would light up less with a high power and the rear wall significantly more.

With these responses and my own mathematical guesstimates as to lumens and ftl, I have convinced myself thaty the RS1 will be brighter than my current TV3 and come with significantly more CR. Just need to verify the RS1 calibrated lumens when that information becomes available. I look forward to my own RS1.

Me too! I think it will be a huge upgrade from our Dwin's. I must say, however, that I have been quite satisfied with my Dwin over the last 3 1/2 years. It has served me quite well. But it is time to move on to bigger and better things! :)

"Color management isn't going to be included though..."

I'm scratching my head about all this "color management" talk.

I don't have nearly the depth of understanding as a lot of you, but tell me what I'm missing in my thinking.

The "real" primaries are optical and determined by the filters selected by the mfgr.

After that it's all a matter of the available electronic adjustments of their relative proportions.

So the only way there wouldn't be adequate "color management" is if there weren't low-IRE and high-IRE adjustments for R/G/B, which I thought were common.

Is this too simplistic?

Thanks

Hi Noah,

I've been hoping that someone (gregr, bob sorel, wm) more knowledgeable about color management than I am would chime in. My assumption is that the RS1 and the prior JVC projectors all have RGB gain adjustments that allow things like D65 color temp adjustment. If as gregr points out in the Pearl review a primary is off (red in this case) the only way to correct it (w/o color management) is to reduce the gain in red and lower the intensity of red. So I assume a D65 white point can still be achieved but it's still not ideal because the red color tracking is still off and there is a mismatch between what the scene calls for (in red) and what is actually displayed. My guess is that color management offers another level of sophistication that allows non-linear "virtual" adjustments of the color primary and secondaries. This helps to ensure that colors track properly and accurately with a scene without having to compensate by changing the intensity. The other way to fix this problem is for the manufacturer to ensure that the color primaries are as close to Rec. 709 as possible (fix the underlying problem as opposed to providing a fix to the problem).

You could always put on a NDx2 or NDx4 filter to cut the light (in half or in quarter respectively) and then remove it as the bulb aged. Otherwise the reflected light may be too much and put a major damper on your ANSI CR as you mention.
The ANSI CR will be the same with and without a filter.

Example without NDx2 filter in non-reflective room:
40 fL for white rectangles
0.1 fL for black rectangles
0 fL of light reflected by room
ANSI CR = (40 + 0) / (0.1 + 0) = 40 / 0.1 = 400:1

Example without NDx2 filter in reflective room:
40 fL for white rectangles
0.1 fL for black rectangles
0.2 fL of light reflected by room
ANSI CR = (40 + 0.2) / (0.1 + 0.2) = 40.2 / 0.3 = 134:1

Example with NDx2 filter in reflective room:
20 fL for white rectangles
0.05 fL for black rectangles
0.1 fL of light reflected by room
ANSI CR = (20 + 0.1) / (0.05 + 0.1) = 20.1 / 0.15 = 134:1

Basically, when you add a NDx2 filter, it halves the amount of light originating from the projector, and it also halves the amount of light being reflected around the room (unless there are sources of light in addition to the projector, such as LED's, the sun, etc).

I was under the impression that high gain screens actually improve ANSI contrast because of their directional nature. (retroreflective will reflect light off walls to the same wall and angular to the opposite wall instead of to the viewer) Also I can't see how a HP screen can increae the amount of light reflected into the room. It doesn't create any extra light it just changes the direction it is reflected off the screen. I would think the sidewalls would light up less with a high power and the rear wall significantly more.

Thanks for making this clearer than I did! And I think the ceiling is usually the chief culprit with reflected light, and by having the pj 'low', and also the screen not too close to the ceiling (top of my screen will be ~ 20" below the 8.3' ceiling), the retro-reflective character of the HP should not send so much light to the ceiling.

The other way to fix this problem is for the manufacturer to ensure that the color primaries are as close to Rec. 709 as possible (fix the underlying problem as opposed to providing a fix to the problem).[/QUOTE]

Well said Mark!

Thats exactly what I think JVC will do! :D

I was under the impression that high gain screens actually improve ANSI contrast because of their directional nature. (retroreflective will reflect light off walls to the same wall and angular to the opposite wall instead of to the viewer) Also I can't see how a HP screen can increae the amount of light reflected into the room. It doesn't create any extra light it just changes the direction it is reflected off the screen. I would think the sidewalls would light up less with a high power and the rear wall significantly more.

Screen ANSI (measured in a black hole) is a little better for some high gain screens but they do reflect more light into a room which in turn causes problems if the screen isn't in a black velvet covered room. If you look at most 1.0 gain screens a lot of light passes through the screen and is lost but higher gain screens reduce light loss. They don't create light but they do reflect more of it. In fact if you look at a Silverstar the viewing cone is amazingly wide for such a high gain screen this is because it's an efficient reflector. You are right that the sidewalls get less initial reflected light off the screen because the HP is retro-reflective but the light still bounces around and gets back to the screen. In fact I was surprised that my sidewalls were signficantly brighter with a HP than with a 1.3 gain screen. and I attributed this not to direct reflected light but light that had bounced several times before getting to the sidewall.

The other way to fix this problem is for the manufacturer to ensure that the color primaries are as close to Rec. 709 as possible (fix the underlying problem as opposed to providing a fix to the problem).

I don't believe this would be a sufficient solution. The color of the lamp shifts over time. In addition, not all lamps are identical, though there could be factory calibration to compensate for this. I believe this is one of the major reasons why Xenon lamps are more desirable. They exhibit less color shift over time as well as having a smaller standard deviation among product (speculation on my part, so confirmation would be nice).

I don't believe this would be a sufficient solution. The color of the lamp shifts over time. In addition, not all lamps are identical, though there could be factory calibration to compensate for this. I believe this is one of the major reasons why Xenon lamps are more desirable. They exhibit less color shift over time as well as having a smaller standard deviation among product (speculation on my part, so confirmation would be nice).

Color shifts due to primaries and due to bulb aging are very different beasts. A color shift in a bulb just requires another D65 calibration because the balance of RGB colors has changed while color shifts due to suboptimal primaries are much more problematic because the colorspace is skewed. I'm also not so sure about shifts in Xenon bulbs, I think people have mentioned that they shift just as badly as UHP if not more so. The orientation when replacing them is critical too, it's not uncommon to have to recalibrate to D65 after replacing a bulb. Check out some of William Phelps posts on the subject.

Color shifts due to primaries and due to bulb aging are very different beasts. A color shift in a bulb just requires another D65 calibration because the balance of RGB colors has changed while color shifts due to suboptimal primaries are much more problematic because the colorspace is skewed. I'm also not so sure about shifts in Xenon bulbs, I think people have mentioned that they shift just as badly as UHP if not more so. The orientation when replacing them is critical too, it's not uncommon to have to recalibrate to D65 after replacing a bulb. Check out some of William Phelps posts on the subject.

Got it, thanks for the info. I'm just starting to dip my toes into DIY calibration (thanks to that H10K and my need to tweak). It is definitely a good learning experience and I recommend it to anyone who has the time.

Does anyone know how big the ST130 was that they were using at Cedia? I think it was 110" diag, but would like some confirmation.

I don't believe this would be a sufficient solution. The color of the lamp shifts over time. In addition, not all lamps are identical, though there could be factory calibration to compensate for this. I believe this is one of the major reasons why Xenon lamps are more desirable. They exhibit less color shift over time as well as having a smaller standard deviation among product (speculation on my part, so confirmation would be nice).

Speculation indeed. So why make the statment at all, and contribute to the myth? According to my measurements, Xenon lamps in consumer digital projectors are far less stable than UHP lamps, and changing the lamp is much more likely to make a difference with Xenon.

wm, any thoughts on the color management topic? I'm curious to hear your thoughts on the topic. Fwiw, JVC has indicated that the color primaries aren't going to be as wide as the HD10K so the color gamut is going to be reduced to an extent. What I'd really like to see is an HD10K with 15000:1 on/off and 350:1 Ansi :)

Me too! I think it will be a huge upgrade from our Dwin's. I must say, however, that I have been quite satisfied with my Dwin over the last 3 1/2 years. It has served me quite well. But it is time to move on to bigger and better things! :)

I agree completely!

Thanks for all of the great information.

I decided to get in on the AVS buy. Thanks Jason.

It is time to upgrade my Infocus 7200!

Now I just have to wait until Feb....

CANNOT WAIT TO SEE THIS BABY!

Does this projector play well with a computer?
Can we get 1:1 pixel mapping at the native resolution?
It would be nice to run at 1080p @ 72 Hz, then movies will be just like 24fps and games will have smooth movement.

thats a very interesting question. Even assuming that JVC adds the ability to use an anamorphic lens with the projector, will it have the ability to scale for all of the other aspect ratios without removing the lens. At the show went I spoke with the JVC guys, I asked them about the scaling option but it never occured to ask about this part of it

I'd certainly like to know that too. I run a CH setup and leave the lens in place all the time so if the projector could handle that internally it would be a good option. As it is I handle this in a Lumagen.

I suppose a related question would be is the firmware for the projector/scaler field upgradable? IOW, if it didn't ship with this ability could it potentially be added later through an RS232 download or whatever?

Shawn

As someone mentioned elsewhere, it's too bad that the JVC doesn't have an adjustible (not dynamic) iris that one could use rather than an ND filter.

I've also considered a Firehawk (with the JVC ceiling mounted), but a 119"FH (G3) would generate 'only' ~ 20 ftL, going down to 10 at 50% lamp; and I just afraid that this may be too dim. As I said, I'm coming from an RPTV (73" Mits 1080p) and am just fearful of an FP that is only viewable in the bat cave. For movies at night, the room will be completely dark (except for reflected light), but on the weekend afternoons, while dark, it will be more like TV.

Right, with 119" FH you'd be at just about 22ftL and say 11ftL with an aged bulb. Have you ever seen 11ftL and known it at the time? I ask because on paper it sounds quite low. But in reality I found it to be very punchy in a total light controlled room.

For instance I'm definately the type that likes a bright and punch picture. I was very surprised when I found out my Ruby was putting out just 7.5ftL - would have bet it was twice that. Everyone's tastes are quite different so you'd need to see it for yourself to judge. All I'm saying is that you may not want to totally dismiss the idea of a 1.3 or 1.5 gain screen and that 11ftL is probably quite a bit brighter than you may think.

I only need 415 lumens to get 12 ft-l from my 123" 1.3 gain screen.

How much falloff in lumens output will there be once the lamp has aged after aprox. 100-200 hours or so?

Right, with 119" FH you'd be at just about 22ftL and say 11ftL with an aged bulb. Have you ever seen 11ftL and known it at the time? I ask because on paper it sounds quite low. But in reality I found it to be very punchy in a total light controlled room.

For instance I'm definately the type that likes a bright and punch picture. I was very surprised when I found out my Ruby was putting out just 7.5ftL - would have bet it was twice that. Everyone's tastes are quite different so you'd need to see it for yourself to judge. All I'm saying is that you may not want to totally dismiss the idea of a 1.3 or 1.5 gain screen and that 11ftL is probably quite a bit brighter than you may think.

Well you hit it on the nose! This JVC will be my first FP setup, so I only know what I've learned on the forum--which is an enormous amount, thanks to all you guys--but it's not like seeing it with your own eyes. Courtesy of some very hospitable AVS'ers, I have seen some FP's, and that has given me the confidence that I really do want to get into it.

But I'll probably do what Mark suggested: after I get the RS1 I will show it on my wall a week or so to decide finally the precise size screen I want, and then get the HighPower. The Model C (manual pulldown) is very modest in price. If I really like it, I'll probably get a fixed frame version and Craigslist the Model C. Or if I don't like it, I'll go back the forum.

I only need 415 lumens to get 12 ft-l from my 123" 1.3 gain screen.

How much falloff in lumens output will there be once the lamp has aged after aprox. 100-200 hours or so?

Its hard to say. I pretty much plan on loosing at least half the brightness at about 600-800 hours which is a year's worth of viewing or so for me. But the rate of falloff can be steep at the beginning. So at 700 lumens you'd be at 20.4ftL to start with but who knows how quickly that would fall off before stabilizing. I think the key is knowing what your comfort zone is. As I posted earlier I never would have thought it, but I'm actually very pleased with just 8ftL in my light controlled room. So for my tastes I wouldn't hesitate to start with 20ftL. Also for $300 (likely street assuming $350 retail) if I loved the pj I wouldn't hesitate to just change the bulb once a year or less even.

Hi Mark,

"if...a primary is off (red in this case) the only way to correct it (w/o color management) is to reduce the gain in red and lower the intensity of red."

Then how does "color management" do it? Could you define what you mean by the term?

Thanks

I hope they have a way of placing filters in the light path for color correction.

Millerwill
I have the exact same dimensions in my new room. Tryg is suggesting the silverstar. I can ceiling mount or shlef mount it above my head as well. Any suggestions?
Paul

Chief RPA-U. Universal mount, works with most projectors and is very flexible.
www.chiefmfg.com

Hi Jason,
Thanks for calling ... and the good pricing on the RS1.

I have a Peerless mount PJRL-100 and adapter PADP-HUG1000 for my G15. Any chance it will work for the RS1?

Hi Mark,

"if...a primary is off (red in this case) the only way to correct it (w/o color management) is to reduce the gain in red and lower the intensity of red."

Then how does "color management" do it? Could you define what you mean by the term?

Thanks

My assumption is that color management does it by providing a realtime mathematical conversion from one colorspace to a modified colorspace by creating virtual primaries and secondaries that effectively remap the input color signal to the new colorspace. So let's say we have suboptimal color primaries that would normally skew the colorspace. If the encoded color for a pixel is supposed to correspond to a color in CIE colorspace of x,y it would have an error associated with it and fall at say x1,y1. Color management would allow it to be mapped back to x,y even given the error caused by the primaries. Color management would also be useful for precise conversion between say ITU 601 (SD) and Rec. 709 (HD) colorspaces. In most projectors that don't have color management the conversion between SD and HD colorspaces is more clumsy. It's also worth pointing out that the remapped color space has to fall inside the physical primaries, in other words there is no way to expand the color gamut beyond what is physically available. As I mentioned though this is just my assumption and it's not an area that I've really looked into in detail. I'd like to hear more about it from those on the forum that are more experienced with it.

Can one change a bulb at home? I seem to recall that bulb changes in the Ruby were a bit tricky, what about in the RS1?

I would say if you can create and implement a design that will render 20 or so footlamberts when new and no lower than 10 FL at 50% life, you are doing very well. That is a very reasonable range in which to get a very good picture for a long time. Consider the SMPTE spec of 12 to 22 FL. Hit that, and you have a winner.

How much brighter would the image be on a 114" 1.5 gain screen compared with the Dwin HD700 I am now using?

Can the JVC handle reasonable brightness on a 114" screen, or am I going to have to figure out how to get the Optoma to work?

...Can the JVC handle reasonable brightness on a 114" screen...

I assume 114" is the diagonal measurement. IMO, absolutely! I think not only will it work, but it would be quite ideal. Assuming the RS1 hits the spec of 700 lumens @ D65 from any throw within range, then you'd have about 27ftL on a new bulb and say about 13ftL on an aged bulb.

Brightness is all a matter of personal taste. I like a very bright and image picture. Yet I find that to me, even 7ftL looks very bright and punch on a pj with high contrast such as the Ruby and RS1. So for my tastes your setup would be fantastic and would even carry me well into use with quite an aged bulb.

I would say if you can create and implement a design that will render 20 or so footlamberts when new and no lower than 10 FL at 50% life, you are doing very well. That is a very reasonable range in which to get a very good picture for a long time. Consider the SMPTE spec of 12 to 22 FL. Hit that, and you have a winner.

I would agree with you if the room is totally light-controlled. But if it has light-colored ceiling/walls that cause reflected light, I'm not sure. Truly I do not know!! I'm just not sure.

Millerwill
I have the exact same dimensions in my new room. Tryg is suggesting the silverstar. I can ceiling mount or shlef mount it above my head as well. Any suggestions?
Paul

I've never seen a SS, just know what I've read in the forums. Its positives are a wide viewing cone and very high gain. The negatives are a very wide viewing cone if the room is not the ideal bat-cave HT and has reflections from light-colored ceiling/walls. It has also been reported to have a 'sheen' that some people find objectionable.

It sounds to me that the SS would be best in a room w/o reflective surfaces if you need high gain, but that the HP would be better in reducing these reflections if your configuration can deal with the narrower viewing cone.

BUT, Tryg is the real 'pro' in this business! If you describe your room, etc., to him, I would go with what he recommends.

I have a Silverstar, and I love it. I think it will go great with this projector.

Screen ANSI (measured in a black hole) is a little better for some high gain screens but they do reflect more light into a room which in turn causes problems if the screen isn't in a black velvet covered room. If you look at most 1.0 gain screens a lot of light passes through the screen and is lost but higher gain screens reduce light loss. They don't create light but they do reflect more of it. In fact if you look at a Silverstar the viewing cone is amazingly wide for such a high gain screen this is because it's an efficient reflector. You are right that the sidewalls get less initial reflected light off the screen because the HP is retro-reflective but the light still bounces around and gets back to the screen. In fact I was surprised that my sidewalls were signficantly brighter with a HP than with a 1.3 gain screen. and I attributed this not to direct reflected light but light that had bounced several times before getting to the sidewall.

Thank you for that explanation. It's funny how real life doesn't always work the same as theory.

I have a Silverstar, and I love it. I think it will go great with this projector.

What is your room like?

Can one change a bulb at home? I seem to recall that bulb changes in the Ruby were a bit tricky, what about in the RS1?
Yes, on most projectors it is pretty easy. A selling point for me on this projector is that it does not have to be removed from the ceiling to change the bulb.

Miller-

Tryg is a high ftl cheerleader. Nothing wrong with that but there are some that prefer much lower ftl then that. You'll have to be your own judge but I think you'll be suprised how much lower you can go and still have an awsome picture.

I just recommended a 1.5 gain screen to someone. I hope you guys will forgive me :)

More importantly, will the owner forgive you if he gets too many FLs and notices image noise? :p

Gary

I am also in the high Ftl camp. I think( I agree with Tryg) that a 1.5 gain screen and the JVC would be a great combo with a larger size screen. The highpwer if set up right and the Silverstar could be good alternatives if you are into the plasma like look. It kind of depends on what u like

What is your room like?

I have spent a lot of time, taming room reflections. The room is not totally black, but I have stood at the screen, and looked at where the major light reflections are, and then I would go and paint those areas black, or cover them with felt. I also have a felt blanket I throw over the front row of seats, since those are not black.

At the moment, the ceiling is black, along with the back wall, front wall, parts of the soffit, and parts of the side walls. Some areas out of the direct reflection path are tan. I also have a fluffy black wool carpet that covers the floor in front of the screen and the first row seats.

I had a Firehawk, before the Silverstar, and I really prefer what the Silverstar does to the image. It really makes it pop. I like a very lifelike image. When it is a daylight scene, I want to feel like I walked out into the daylight. I also find the viewing cone excellent on the Silverstar. Before, with the Firehawk, if I went off too far to the sides, or even sat in the front row, which is lower, I could see the image dim. The Silverstar looks great from any seat in the room.

I just recommended a 1.5 gain screen to someone. I hope you guys will forgive me :)

We forgive you, but now you've just offended the high ft.L camp (stating preferences is a no-win situation on AVS :) )


Can one change a bulb at home? I seem to recall that bulb changes in the Ruby were a bit tricky, what about in the RS1?


Changing a UHP is a piece of cake:
1) open cover
2) pull out bulb housing
3) insert new bulb housing
4) close cover

It's really that simple. Xenon bulbs on the otherhand....

I have a light controlled room that is 23'L x 15'W with 9' high ceilings painted off white and off white carpeting. It does have very dark red walls using a flat paint. My first row seating distance is at 1.71 x screen width and the second row is at 2.4 x SW. I will be taking further steps to darken the floor and ceiling for the first five feet from the screen wall.

I'm currently using an ND2 filtered Infocus 4805 with over 1200 hours on the bulb. It is ceiling mounted at a distance of 18' with a 120" diagonal 16:9 SS and I have been quite happy with the PQ considering the limits of the 4805's 480P resolution.

I've been looking to upgrade to a higher res pj for a while now and have done a ton of reading here and this pj seems to easily fit my needs for throw distance and lumens. My only real concern is that giving my seating distances, I have read many conflicting posts whether I will really see any noticable benefits by going to 1080P vs. 720P

Anyone care to share their thoughts ?

Thanks.

Also, can someone please shoot me a pm regarding the preorder pricing. I know today is the last day to get in on the deal.

why don't you just call Jason or tryg and ask them?

We forgive you, but now you've just offended the high ft.L camp (stating preferences is a no-win situation on AVS :) )


I didn't say how big the screen was :)

He'll still be getting ~30 ft.L :eek:

I didn't say how big the screen was :)

He'll still be getting ~30 ft.L :eek:

Ah, sounds back on track: the 500 lumen lamp mode of the RS1 will generate ~30 ftL with a 119" HP.

I've also considered a Firehawk (with the JVC ceiling mounted), but a 119"FH (G3) would generate 'only' ~ 20 ftL, going down to 10 at 50% lamp; and I just afraid that this may be too dim.

I have a 123" FH with my current 7200.

Sounds like I may have an issue with this screen size. My room is light controlled, dark, but not black.

I have a 123" FH with my current 7200.

Sounds like I may have an issue with this screen size. My room is light controlled, dark, but not black.

I have the same size screen, 1.3 gain white (ST130 clone), and I have the RS1 on order. I am not worried about the brightness at this point. I'm sure it will be brighter than my current DLP.

I didn't say how big the screen was :)

He'll still be getting ~30 ft.L :eek:

Oh okay that explains it and here I thought you had been corrupted to the dark side :)

So I'm guessing the screen you recommended was a little over 7' wide 16x9 1.5 gain am I close?

I've been looking to upgrade to a higher res pj for a while now and have done a ton of reading here and this pj seems to easily fit my needs for throw distance and lumens. My only real concern is that giving my seating distances, I have read many conflicting posts whether I will really see any noticable benefits by going to 1080P vs. 720P

Anyone care to share their thoughts ?

Thanks.

Also, can someone please shoot me a pm regarding the preorder pricing. I know today is the last day to get in on the deal.
I don't think you'll see a difference at that distance, but seeing how you seem to hold on to equipment longer than most of these guys, why not go with 1080p??? 720p is already becoming dated so why buy old technology when you have a choice? If there were a huge price difference, I might suggest 720... but there really isn't. 1080p is the clear answer IMO. :)

I have the same size screen, 1.3 gain white (ST130 clone), and I have the RS1 on order. I am not worried about the brightness at this point. I'm sure it will be brighter than my current DLP.

But Rob, you have a (beautiful 'My HT') ideal 'batcave' type room (do you leave any of the lights on when watching a movie?) Just how this is changed with a less than ideal room is what is hard for me to get a handle on. Ultimately, of coure, one just has to make a best guess and try it out. [I wonder if AVS considers screens as part of their 'platinum' service guarantee!]

But Rob, you have a (beautiful 'My HT') ideal 'batcave' type room (do you leave any of the lights on when watching a movie?) Just how this is changed with a less than ideal room is what is hard for me to get a handle on. Ultimately, of coure, one just has to make a best guess and try it out. [I wonder if AVS considers screens as part of their 'platinum' service guarantee!]

Yes, I do, and it appears that Caspyr has a light controlled room too (although he says he isn't "black"), so we should be in a similar situation.

You, on the other hand...... ;)

Your best bet, I think, is to try the HP screen. If you don't like it, I would certainly think you could work something out with Jason et al for an exchange for another screen, such as the Silverstar etc.

I have a light controlled room that is 23'L x 15'W with 9' high ceilings painted off white and off white carpeting. It does have very dark red walls using a flat paint. My first row seating distance is at 1.71 x screen width and the second row is at 2.4 x SW. I will be taking further steps to darken the floor and ceiling for the first five feet from the screen wall.

I'm currently using an ND2 filtered Infocus 4805 with over 1200 hours on the bulb. It is ceiling mounted at a distance of 18' with a 120" diagonal 16:9 SS and I have been quite happy with the PQ considering the limits of the 4805's 480P resolution.

I've been looking to upgrade to a higher res pj for a while now and have done a ton of reading here and this pj seems to easily fit my needs for throw distance and lumens. My only real concern is that giving my seating distances, I have read many conflicting posts whether I will really see any noticable benefits by going to 1080P vs. 720P

Anyone care to share their thoughts ?

Thanks.

Also, can someone please shoot me a pm regarding the preorder pricing. I know today is the last day to get in on the deal.
Pricing has to be done through us. People are not supposed to be sharing pricing (although I know some area).

Oh, T Minus 40 minutes.

Oh, T Minus 40 minutes.

:eek:

Get in on this while you have the chance smithfarmer!

People are not supposed to be sharing pricing (although I know some area).

Just to clarify is it okay to share pricing amongst AV forum members? 2 people have pm'ed me asking me pricing info so I told them while also telling them to call. Does this mean that my account will spontaneously combust and my RS1 will be delayed for a year? :D

You lose your place in line.

I wish it was April fools...I'm kidding of course. Seriously though, I prefer that people contact us for pricing but not a big deal as I think that is well out the window. Heck someone posted it publically on another forum for crying out loud.

"Pricing has to be done through us. People are not supposed to be sharing pricing (although I know some area)."

I'm sorry Jason I have shared pre-order price information through a pm. I did the same way as Mark. Won't do it again if its not allowed. Apologies.


"Oh, T Minus 40 minutes. "

Now I'm getting the feeling your playing with us just like the Beatles did with Paul being dead. Your really talking about Thanksgiving aren't you!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No worries. Not mad or anything, I was just trying to keep it on the low (although that went out the door around Monday last week 5 minutes after the details were announced)! :)

Have a good holiday!

You lose your place in line.
:eek: :eek: :eek: :(

I wish it was April fools...I'm kidding of course
:) :p

I couldn't resist. :)

Jason, curious on how many pre-orders were taken on the RS-1, or can you say?

I have to take count, but it is a good number.

Here is hoping you get enough RS-1s in...... ;)

Shawn

:eek:

Get it on this while you have the chance smithfarmer!
I just got off the phone with Jason, I'm in. :D

Well that is the good news...there is a strong possibility that I will get all orders at once. Do not hold me to it, but it looks good.

Oh if I don't get enough, the people who paypal me my "bonus" cash the fastest get bumped up. :) KIDDING! THAT ISN'T GOING TO HAPPEN SO DON'T ASK! :)

I just got off the phone with Jason, I'm in. :D

Well, at least you didn't cut it close or anything! ;) :cool:

I have spent a lot of time, taming room reflections. The room is not totally black, but I have stood at the screen, and looked at where the major light reflections are, and then I would go and paint those areas black, or cover them with felt. I also have a felt blanket I throw over the front row of seats, since those are not black.

At the moment, the ceiling is black, along with the back wall, front wall, parts of the soffit, and parts of the side walls. Some areas out of the direct reflection path are tan. I also have a fluffy black wool carpet that covers the floor in front of the screen and the first row seats.

I had a Firehawk, before the Silverstar, and I really prefer what the Silverstar does to the image. It really makes it pop. I like a very lifelike image. When it is a daylight scene, I want to feel like I walked out into the daylight. I also find the viewing cone excellent on the Silverstar. Before, with the Firehawk, if I went off too far to the sides, or even sat in the front row, which is lower, I could see the image dim. The Silverstar looks great from any seat in the room.

Free - do you have a light meter like the CA 813? An interesting experiment would be to take ANSI CR readings AT THE SCREEN and compare them what you are getting with the cover on Vs. off the seats and so forth.

I have 1 extra pre order ticket,
will trade for turkey dinner or small fishing boat.

Oh if I don't get enough, the people who paypal me my "bonus" cash the fastest get bumped up. :) KIDDING! THAT ISN'T GOING TO HAPPEN SO DON'T ASK! :)

So if paypal isn't going to happen do you take credit cards? :D

I have 1 extra pre order ticket,
will trade for turkey dinner or small fishing boat.

Dude, you gotta put that thing up on eBaay. The preorder tickets are going for like $3000.00 already!! It's getting crazy! :eek: :p ;)

I saw Jason's post that the prebuy is officially over. So I guess this is the point in the story where Jason tells us that JVC's pricing is about to drop lol. (just kidding Jason). Happy Holidays everyone...

Well, at least you didn't cut it close or anything! ;) :cool:
:D

Another potential suggestion/question.....

Discrete IR codes for On/off? Input? AR (esp. if scaling for CH makes it in)...etc..etc.?

Shawn

So if paypal isn't going to happen do you take credit cards?

We only take unmarked and non sequential 10 dollar bills:)

Now that the prebuy is over, I kind of feel sad:(

Is the pre order really over? I thought it was through today...

yes, Its over. Still available but new pricing

Hi guys,

I am sorry that I am so far behind, but I will at least try to clear some things up about grayscale calibration and why color management is so important, or at least to the best of my understanding (which might be incorrect).

D65 is a point in the CIE colorspace that represents the correct "blend" of red, blue, and green primaries. Also, for all of these primaries (and secondaries as well) to appear correctly on the screen, they must also be on very specific targets in the CIE colorspace. I don't know the coordinates offhand, but I'm sure they can be researched rather easily. The problem here is that D65 can be reached even if the individual primaries are not properly on target. That is, If red, green, and blue were off by the right amounts, then white would still be at D65, yet the individual colors of red, blue, and green would appear incorrectly on the screen, so attaining white at D65 is NOT "good enough".

So, with a good color management system, we have the ability to move each of the primaries and secondaries on the CIE chart in order to individually calibrate these six colors - moving them along one axis affects the saturation of the color, and moving them along the other axis affects the hue of the color, so in order to get really accurate color rendition, either the six colors (3 primaries and 3 secondaries) need to be perfectly on their CIE coordinates to begin with, OR we need the ability to move them (a la color management) to their correct coordinates. Since every lamp will be different, I really think that movable primaries and secondaries are NECESSARY, not simply a nice luxury, but that's the anal part of me coming out.

Now, as Mark correctly pointed out, there is a third Z axis that you don't see when you look at the CIE chart, and that represents luminance. So, where the Pearl/Ruby's color management system fails is that it is able to control two of the axes (saturation and hue) of each of the six colors individually, but there is no way to control luminance (the third axis). If I understand Greg correctly, it seems that luminance is locked to saturation with the Sony PJs, so what ends up happening is that if you bring the color DOWN to their correct saturation points (they are oversaturated by default), then the "invisible" luminance is also brought DOWN, resulting in colors that appear on the CIE color chart as perfect, but in reality appear pale and uninvolving. The correct way to do it would be to have individual control of luminance in addition to saturation and hue on a one by one basis.

Like I said, don't take this explanation as Gospel, but I think I got it pretty much right....:)

IMO a good color management system is essential in order to keep a PJ correctly calibrated over the life of the lamp (and subsequent lamps), but maybe the JVC will be the exception that doesn't need this type of extensive control. My hopes are that even if such CM is not available in the user menu that there will at least be some cryptic controls in the service menu that can be used to get the job done...;)

Does this projector play well with a computer?
Can we get 1:1 pixel mapping at the native resolution?

"Does this projector play well with a computer?
Can we get 1:1 pixel mapping at the native resolution?"

Fingers crossed on that one for those of us that use scalers too. If it can't it would be a step backwards. My old JVC G10 could do 1:1 at the native resolution (1365x1024) but it could also do was was effectively 1:1 and only using part of the panel (1365x768) without additional scaling. That was useful in my CH setup feeding it a different resolution for 2.35 material compared to 1.78.

Shawn

Shawn

Just curious. Is the new pricing lower and, if it is, can the early pre-orderers get it? :)

Is the pre order really over? I thought it was through today...

That's gonna leave a mark! :(

Bob,

"So, with a good color management system, we have the ability to move each of the primaries and secondaries "

Is it not the case that any and all "moving" is done by varying the proportions of R, G, and B?

Thanks

Bob,

"So, with a good color management system, we have the ability to move each of the primaries and secondaries "

Is it not the case that any and all "moving" is done by varying the proportions of R, G, and B?

Thanks

Noah, you took the words right out of my mouth.

Bob thanks for jumping in. My assumption is that the modified new primaries are moved mathematically so that each pixels color information has to be remapped (recalculated) to the new colorspace. So say the projector receives encoded information for a pixel with values R1, G1, and B1 the color managment system processes this in realtime and remaps it to say R2, G2 and B2 which if properly done results in a truer approximation of the color (when applied to the physical primaries). Can you confirm that this is pretty much how it works?

EDIT:
Also to answer Noah's question I think the end result is that new values of RGB are obtained but it's more sophisticated than a shift in one color. In other words changing one primary or secondary has the potential to change R, G AND B simultaneously which is why I like the term remap rather than shift.

Is it not the case that any and all "moving" is done by varying the proportions of R, G, and B?
No. When we vary the proportions of red, green, and blue in calibrating grayscale (I assume that you are talking about RGB bias and gain, right?), we are affecting the intensity of each color to achieve proper grayscale tracking from 0% to 100% stimulus. This does nothing to affect the saturation and hue of those colors, and this is where good color management enters the picture. You can affect saturation and hue of all of the colors at the same time by using the standard "color" and "hue" controls, but the problem here is that those controls affect all colors at the same time and by the same amount. We need individual controls to attain perfectly accurate colors, as each of the colors is not necessarily off by the same amount or the same way as any other.

Can you confirm that this is pretty much how it works?
Mark, to be honest with you I really don't know how it is done, but your explanation sounds great to me! That sounds like a very logical and efficient way to get the job done. :)

Too funny. Bob, I finished my post and decided to go back and add another paragraph but you responded before it was finished. At any rate, you basically confirmed what I was asking in the last paragraph of my post above.

This color management topic has been interesting, I'm glad that we've delved a little deeper into it. I can see how powerful this technique could be in obtaining acurate color out of display devices that wouldn't normally be that great. I can see this being used everywhere in the future...

Actually I am not overly concerned about a CMS in the RS1, as I am willing to bet that the needed controls are all in the service menu (as long as some kind soul gives me the code to get in...;) ). Also, since it requires good calibration equipment to achieve accurate results, there are not a lot of end users that will have any particular need for such a system, and a lot of people would just use this powerful tool to muck up their otherwise excellent picture...:) It would just be really handy for those of us who like to tweak things to death...:p

Actually I am not overly concerned about a CMS in the RS1, as I am willing to bet that the needed controls are all in the service menu (as long as some kind soul gives me the code to get in...;)

If it's like the SX-21 and HD2K it's up, down,right,left, enter pressed in rapid succesion from the remote control :) This gets you into the service menu w/ the RGB gain control settings.

Thanks, Mark...Got it! :D

People are already trying to get into the service menu of a projector that doesn't even exist yet! Classic! :p

People are already trying to get into the service menu of a projector that doesn't even exist yet! Classic! :p

And it's only fitting that the first person to ask is Bob Sorel :)

I just recommended a 1.5 gain screen to someone. I hope you guys will forgive me :)

Tryg,

I am on the RS1 prebuy and have been trying to get someone to recommend a 1.5 gain screen since I can't use the Highpower or Silverstar! Which 1.5 gain screen did you recommend and why you chose the material.

Happy Thanks,

Glenn

Actually I am not overly concerned about a CMS in the RS1, as I am willing to bet that the needed controls are all in the service menu (as long as some kind soul gives me the code to get in...;) ).
Bob, you and Mark have pretty well covered how a CMS system works in general. I would add that there are different types of CMS systems and each works a little differently in terms of how they manipulate the colors, what calibration adjustments they provide, and what degree of independence the various adjustments have. The CMS in the Sharp projectors is very effective but somewhat difficult to calibrate. The Yamaha CMS is my favorite - it is very effective and very easy to calibrate. (Interestingly though a simpler system than either of those two would work just as well in my opinion.) However, the point I want to make relative to your statement above, is that most of these CMS systems are quite complex (i.e. cost something to implement) and if they are included the manufacturer would want to feature it in advertising and it would show up in the user menus. It would be pretty odd to find such a system implemented but only available in a service menu. However, I can think of examples where a manufacturer used a simple CMS system to set colors, but didn't make the adjustments available in user or service menus, so what you suggest isn't impossible but I think it's unlikely.

Tryg,

I am on the RS1 prebuy and have been trying to get someone to recommend a 1.5 gain screen since I can't use the Highpower or Silverstar! Which 1.5 gain screen did you recommend and why you chose the material.

Happy Thanks,

Glenn

Da-Lite Pearlescent....Because it's 1.5 gain

Jason, Re the Pearlescent, I see that one can not get it with the Model C manual pulldown frame, only in the fixed frame model. Also, it has a wider viewing cone than the HighPower; thus how does it do in dealing with the ambient light from wall reflections?

People are already trying to get into the service menu of a projector that doesn't even exist yet! Classic! :p

LOL.

Bob, you and Mark have pretty well covered how a CMS system works in general. I would add that there are different types of CMS systems and each works a little differently in terms of how they manipulate the colors, what calibration adjustments they provide, and what degree of independence the various adjustments have. The CMS in the Sharp projectors is very effective but somewhat difficult to calibrate. The Yamaha CMS is my favorite - it is very effective and very easy to calibrate.

Greg, thanks for stepping in and confirming that our CMS thinking wasn't completely off base. Quick question, do you have any links for info on the Yamaha CMS? I looked for info and came up empty. Now that I've thought it through I can see where a system like this is really powerful and able to provide accurate colors in a variety of applications especially when going between different colorspaces like 601 and 709. I could see where something like this could become as important as say good deinterlacing.

I also noticed that JVC does offer CMS in some of their LCD flat panels and DILA RPTV's, I included a marketing blurb about it below. I'm a bit surprised that they would roll out CMS on a DILA RPTV product and not on the latest and greatest DILA FPTV product. Maybe this is one differentiating factor between the RS1 and a subsequent more expensive product.

"JVC's Latest 5-Point Color Management System

An exclusive 5-Point Color Management System (CMS), incorporated into JVC's latest D-ILA series, compensates for the limited color standards set by CRT TVs with pin-point, four-color (green, red, yellow, and blue) plus dedicated flesh tone sampling, adjusting for the color purity of each without effecting the other color tones and assuring colors as vivid as can be. Motion-Adaptive Dynamic Gamma Correction (DGC), using data from every signal level, makes sure that tonal gradations are preserved from the darkest to the brightest areas of the image for transition-free perfect detail. TheaterPro 6500K Color Temperature Setting is the NTSC standard in editing from film to DVD or other secondary video formats. This technology allows you to view programs as true as the film editors intended them to be. The technology may sound intimidating, but the resulting images are something you're sure to appreciate. "

Greg, thanks for stepping in and confirming that our CMS thinking wasn't completely off base. Quick question, do you have any links for info on the Yamaha CMS? I looked for info and came up empty. Now that I've thought it through I can see where a system like this is really powerful and able to provide accurate colors in a variety of applications especially when going between different colorspaces like 601 and 709. I could see where something like this could become as important as say good deinterlacing.

I also noticed that JVC does offer CMS in some of their LCD flat panels and DILA RPTV's, I included a marketing blurb about it below. I'm a bit surprised that they would roll out CMS on a DILA RPTV product and not on the latest and greatest DILA FPTV product. Maybe this is one differentiating factor between the RS1 and a subsequent more expensive product.

"JVC's Latest 5-Point Color Management System

An exclusive 5-Point Color Management System (CMS), incorporated into JVC's latest D-ILA series, compensates for the limited color standards set by CRT TVs with pin-point, four-color (green, red, yellow, and blue) plus dedicated flesh tone sampling, adjusting for the color purity of each without effecting the other color tones and assuring colors as vivid as can be. Motion-Adaptive Dynamic Gamma Correction (DGC), using data from every signal level, makes sure that tonal gradations are preserved from the darkest to the brightest areas of the image for transition-free perfect detail. TheaterPro 6500K Color Temperature Setting is the NTSC standard in editing from film to DVD or other secondary video formats. This technology allows you to view programs as true as the film editors intended them to be. The technology may sound intimidating, but the resulting images are something you're sure to appreciate. "

Mark - Greg has covered the Yamaha color management system and its coolness in the past couple of DPX-1xxxx reviews in WSR. If you have access to the back issues you'll find it interesting I'm sure.

It would be great for JVC to provide such controls. I just don't want us to be in a similar situation as I was in with the Ruby where we just don't have the necessary control to dial things in near perfectly...

I'm on the preorder list for RS1. I live very close to JVC in Wayne, NJ. Would it be beneficial to me and others on this forum, to stop on by? Will they give me a tour of their factory? Answer any questions? Maybe even give more info?

Alex

Quick question, do you have any links for info on the Yamaha CMS? I looked for info and came up empty.
I don't know of any technical papers by Yamaha on its CMS system. The nice part of the Yamaha system is not only can you directly adjust the x and y CIE coordinates (very nearly) independently, but it will automatically (or you can override it and do it manually) re-adjust the brightness of the primaries and complementary colors after you set the x,y coordinates. It also comes pre-programmed with the Rec. 709 and Rec. 601 colorimetry (in the DPX-1300 only).

Here's an excerpt about the Yamaha CMS from my DPX-1300 review:

"The DPX-1300 includes Yamaha’s advanced Natural Color Adjustment system that permits the user to individually adjust the chromaticity of the white reference and each of the primary (red, green and blue) and complementary (yellow, cyan, and magenta) colors. The Color Adjustment function has three modes – Standard, WRGB, and WRGBYCM. The Standard mode provides adjustment of only the white reference using the projector’s native primary colors. The WRGB mode adds adjustments for the primary colors and automatically derives the complementary colors. The WRGBYCM mode provides additional adjustments for the complementary colors.

Color accuracy requires an accurate D65 grayscale and primary colors that match the ITU Rec. 601 standard (SMPTE C primaries) for standard-definition sources, and the ITU Rec. 709 standard for high-definition video. The primary colors, and consequently the complementary colors, are not the same for the two standards. The color-wheel filters produce a native primary color triangle that is larger than either of the video standards, which allows pseudo primary and complementary colors to be created that match the standards.

The DPX-1300 Natural Color Adjustment system is an extraordinarily valuable feature that permits the projector to produce nearly perfect color accuracy. The user can directly enter CIE (x,y) values for a colorimetry standard (i.e. Rec. 601) and obtain excellent results, or a color analyzer can be used to further optimize accuracy. A CIE diagram is displayed in the menu window to select the color to adjust. The primary and complementary colors are then adjusted by setting the (x,y) values in 0.001 increments. The CIE diagram expands to show the nominal (x,y) position of the color as it is being adjusted. A gain (brightness) adjustment is also provided for each color, but the projector can also automatically adjust the gain of the individual colors. It is rather complex to compute the (x,y) coordinates of the complimentary colors, so I have provided a table with all of the color coordinates for the Rec. 601 and Rec. 709 standards.

The WRGB and WRGBYCM modes are factory preset with the Rec. 601 primary colors for standard-definition input signals, and the Rec. 709 primary colors for high-definition input signals. When the input signal format changes the colorimetry standard is automatically switched.

Unfortunately, the professional CRT monitors used for creating high-definition video still have Rec. 601 (SMPTE-C) primary colors. Therefore you may get better color accuracy by using the SMPTE-C colors even when viewing high-definition video, unless the original production monitor had been color corrected. For that reason I entered the (x,y) chromaticity coordinates for the Rec. 601 standard into the WRGBYCM mode for 720p and 1080i signals. Then I could simply switch between the WRGB and WRGBYCM modes to quickly try both the Rec. 601 and Rec. 709 colorimetry standards when viewing high-definition sources.

You should also use the Rec. 601 (SMPTE-C) standard-definition primary and complementary colors when viewing DVDs from an upconverting DVD player that produces 720p or 1080i output signals. The ‘Standard’ color mode (native primaries), or the high-definition Rec. 709 primaries, will produce inaccurate color for DVD viewing, and in particular produce skin tones that are slightly too red.

When the white reference is selected the menu window shows a graph of the central portion of the CIE diagram. The white reference is adjusted by setting the color temperature in 100K increments from 5000K to 10000K, and a ‘uv’ deviation in 0.002 uv increments. Those are orthogonal adjustments. The color temperature setting moves the white reference point along lines parallel to the blackbody curve, and the ‘uv’ deviation moves the white reference above or below the blackbody curve along isothermal (same color temperature) lines. Hence the color temperature adjustment sets the Correlated Color Temperature (CCT), and the ‘uv’ adjustment sets the vertical position at the specified CCT. (Refer to the CCT diagram.) The hue of the white reference changes from red to blue as the CCT increases, and becomes less green and more magenta as the ‘uv’ value changes from positive to negative."

Bob,

" Is it not the case that any and all "moving" is done by varying the proportions of R, G, and B?

No....We need individual controls to attain perfectly accurate colors, as each of the colors is not necessarily off by the same amount or the same way as any other."

You started with "no" but as far as I can tell, the rest of your answer says "yes".

I'm not saying it doesn't require a lot of sophisticated processing to properly implement, but all that can be done after the filters is to mix the three colors.

I'm not saying it doesn't require a lot of sophisticated processing to properly implement, but all that can be done after the filters is to mix the three colors.
Correct. There are only R, G, B native primary colors to work with. So they have to be mixed to make any and all colors including new pseudo primary colors. If you mix the pseudo primary colors to make other colors, you are still mixing a combination of native primaries.

Hi Noah,

Sorry, I misunderstood what you meant. When you said "Is it not the case that any and all "moving" is done by varying the proportions of R, G, and B" I thought you were talking about using just the simple red, green, and blue bias and gain controls available in most user menus in order to affect the CIE coordinates of the primaries. "Moving" to me implies changing the coordinates in CIE color space, and "changing the proportions of R, G, and B" to me implies changes in intensity, not chromaticity. My point was simply that affecting primaries is much more complex than using those six simple controls (IF that was what you were talking about), and that those six controls did not change the coordinates of the primaries on the CIE chart, but rather just the intensity of each color at all percent stimulus levels - two entirely different things. The way I interpreted your original statement, it is true once we get the primaries and secondaries pinpointed on their respective CIE targets. As evidenced by Greg's reply, I was reading way more into your statement that you had intended.

Greg, thanks for helping me out! I am pretty much at the edge of my understanding here, so for the sake of presenting accurate information, I really appreciate you stepping in...:)

Thanks for the great input as always Greg. Now all we need is for JVC to provide CMS in one form or another that at least provides the full flexibility to set everything as needed. From Mark's response on his JVC interview on the subject it did not sound like there would be any CMS :(

I just don't want us to be in a similar situation as I was in with the Ruby where we just don't have the necessary control to dial things in near perfectly...
Even though the Ruby/Pearl's CMS is somewhat lacking, it is far better than nothing at all...;)

Would the *cough* PSA *cough* software have this ability in it? That is assuming there is PSA software for the RS-1 of course.

If not (and if it is needed) I believe I could use the greyscale/gamma correction in my Lumagen to help.

Shawn

Mark - Greg has covered the Yamaha color management system and its coolness in the past couple of DPX-1xxxx reviews in WSR. If you have access to the back issues you'll find it interesting I'm sure.

Thanks I'll go through and read them in depth.

I don't know of any technical papers by Yamaha on its CMS system. The nice part of the Yamaha system is not only can you directly adjust the x and y CIE coordinates (very nearly) independently, but it will automatically (or you can override it and do it manually) re-adjust the brightness of the primaries and complementary colors after you set the x,y coordinates. It also comes pre-programmed with the Rec. 709 and Rec. 601 colorimetry (in the DPX-1300 only).

Thanks for providing the summary. It concisely and accurately describes the power that is contained in a feature like this. Being able to adjust settings in CIE coordinates alone is a great advancement.


Unfortunately, the professional CRT monitors used for creating high-definition video still have Rec. 601 (SMPTE-C) primary colors. Therefore you may get better color accuracy by using the SMPTE-C colors even when viewing high-definition video, unless the original production monitor had been color corrected. For that reason I entered the (x,y) chromaticity coordinates for the Rec. 601 standard into the WRGBYCM mode for 720p and 1080i signals. Then I could simply switch between the WRGB and WRGBYCM modes to quickly try both the Rec. 601 and Rec. 709 colorimetry standards when viewing high-definition sources.


Very interesting. I had hoped that the SOTA in HD production was better than this. It makes a person wonder what the viewing experience would be like if both the display device and the source material were more precisely controlled. Given how color oriented our perception is, an advance in color accuracy would likely increase perceived image depth a few notches. People talk about how forgiving of color inaccuracies our perception is, but I wonder if we don't have this logic backwards.


You should also use the Rec. 601 (SMPTE-C) standard-definition primary and complementary colors when viewing DVDs from an upconverting DVD player that produces 720p or 1080i output signals. The ‘Standard’ color mode (native primaries), or the high-definition Rec. 709 primaries, will produce inaccurate color for DVD viewing, and in particular produce skin tones that are slightly too red.


I brought this exact problem up with Tom Stites regarding the RS1. From his description the RS1 chooses the 601/709 colorspace based on the resolution of the source. I mentioned that this causes a mismatch with upconverted DVDs and that's why a user override is necessary. I saw the light swtich go on over Tom's head so I hope a 601/709 colorspace user setting is added in the RS1 production unit. Also for what it's worth the greens also seem to be way off when this mismatch happens.

From reading through various threads it seems that the RS1 will not be able to accept 1080p through the VGA input, bummer for Gamers like myself. I hope this is not the case. A selectable color-space option (PC levels or Video levels) for the inputs would be nice to.

Bummer. I'm wondering if a 1080p projector that accepts 1080p via VGA exists at all.. :(

Bummer. I'm wondering if a 1080p projector that accepts 1080p via VGA exists at all.. :(

Optima HD-81?

On another note, I heard that JVC won the "Best of Demo Alley" award at the EH Expo for, "Best Video Demo Experience". Can anyone confirm?

Yes, I can conirm it...

Does anybody know if the RS1 or the Meridian Faroudja version will have a 2 piece unit such as the MF1? Iam building a new house and and a brand new home theater. I have 6 months to completion. My video guy is pushing for 3 chip Runco
Thanks for your time

Hi Noah,

Sorry, I misunderstood what you meant. When you said "Is it not the case that any and all "moving" is done by varying the proportions of R, G, and B" I thought you were talking about using just the simple red, green, and blue bias and gain controls available in most user menus in order to affect the CIE coordinates of the primaries. "Moving" to me implies changing the coordinates in CIE color space, and "changing the proportions of R, G, and B" to me implies changes in intensity, not chromaticity. My point was simply that affecting primaries is much more complex than using those six simple controls (IF that was what you were talking about), and that those six controls did not change the coordinates of the primaries on the CIE chart, but rather just the intensity of each color at all percent stimulus levels - two entirely different things. The way I interpreted your original statement, it is true once we get the primaries and secondaries pinpointed on their respective CIE targets. As evidenced by Greg's reply, I was reading way more into your statement that you had intended.

Greg, thanks for helping me out! I am pretty much at the edge of my understanding here, so for the sake of presenting accurate information, I really appreciate you stepping in...:)

Two final factoids of note on CMSs: You really want this to be done in the display if at all possible since you frequently have 10 bits or more for each channel internally. By contrast, a video processor has to squeeze any corrections into the 8-bit video it sends to the display. Thus, if you are trying to make some subtle changes, 8-bits may not give you the right granularity, and it may also introduce banding or other artifacts. I'm always skeptical of such things external to the display.

Also, CMS are not magic. As has been stated, they work by mixing in light from the other primaries. This leads to an important constraint for what a CMS can do: you can desaturate a primary (move it in towards the white point), or you can change its hue, but you are always going to be constrained by the area of the gamut described by the physical primaries in what you can do. In other words, a red that is undersaturated won't be able to be made saturated with a CMS. Fortunately, most FPs have oversaturated primaries, so this really should not be an issue.

BTW, I'm on the pre-buy list as well. I'd love for that noise figure to come down a few more dB if possible!

Bill

Yes, I can conirm it...

Congratulations Tom! JVC really put forth a lot of effort to show off the 10K and the RS1 in a well light controlled environment and they both really looked good. It was by far one of the best setups I've seen for a projector at a tradeshow and it's good to see you guys rewarded for your efforts.

Two final factoids of note on CMSs: You really want this to be done in the display if at all possible since you frequently have 10 bits or more for each channel internally. By contrast, a video processor has to squeeze any corrections into the 8-bit video it sends to the display. Thus, if you are trying to make some subtle changes, 8-bits may not give you the right granularity, and it may also introduce banding or other artifacts. I'm always skeptical of such things external to the display.


Good point about roundoff error. I'm not so sure though that you would always want it in the display. If minimizing roundoff error is the concern, I would think that you would always want it where the other facets of video processing (deinterlacing, scaling, noise reduction) are being performed so as to use the full bit resolution throughout. From what I can gather about CMS, it sounds as though the modified primary and secondary information has to be measured anyway so it could be done anywhere and not necessarily in the display.

I brought this exact problem up with Tom Stites regarding the RS1. From his description the RS1 chooses the 601/709 colorspace based on the resolution of the source. I mentioned that this causes a mismatch with upconverted DVDs and that's why a user override is necessary. I saw the light swtich go on over Tom's head so I hope a 601/709 colorspace user setting is added in the RS1 production unit. Also for what it's worth the greens also seem to be way off when this mismatch happens.
There could be some terminology confusion going on here. There are two totally different issues that affect color accuracy and unfortunately both are sometimes wrongly (IMO) referred to as color space. The CMS discussion refers to creating/using the correct primary (and subsequently the correct complementary) colors based on the ITU Rec. 709 standard for HD, and the SMPTE-C (applies to Rec. 601 video) standard for SD. IMO, this could be referred to as the projector's native (or effective) color space or color gamut. So far we have only been talking about that issue (with respective to CMS). My comments in the Yamaha review excerpt regarding professional HD monitors still using SMPTE-C primaries also refers to that issue.

A second issue is correctly decoding YCbCr (digital) or YPbPr (analog) input signals to RGB signals. Those RGB signals are what internally (within the projector) produce the native (or pseudo) R, G, B image colors. This should be called the projector's Color Decoding Matrix, and not the projector's "color space" in my opinion. The conversion of YCbCr(YPbPr) to RGB is very different for HD (Rec. 709) and SD (Rec. 601). These standards establish the correct color encoding and decoding matrices. A projector must have both decoding matrices to be compatible with SD and HD signals.

A projector should automatically switch to the correct Color Decoding Matrix, and to the correct color space/gamut (primaries/complementary colors) if a CMS feature is included, based on whether the incoming signals are SD (480i/p) or HD (720p, 1080i/p). This should be done automatically as a convenience to the user (and because most users would never get it right otherwise). However, because some upconverting DVD players incorrectly do not transcode SD-DVDs from Rec. 601 YCbCr to Rec. 709 YCbCr when upconverting to 720p or 1080i/p, the projector should ALWAYS allow the user to manually select Rec. 601 or Rec. 709 color decoding to fix that problem in the DVD player (or in some cases a video processor/scaler/upconverter that has the same problem). In addition, if the projector also has a CMS feature that is automatically set to Rec. 709 or SMPTE-C color primaries based on input signal format, it should also have manual Rec. 709/SMPTE-C switching to allow the user to select SMPTE-C primaries because many professional monitors used for telecine have uncorrected SMPTE-C primaries.

I don't know if the RS-1 has any kind of CMS feature or not, but your discussion with Tom probably referred to its Color Decoding Matrix (which we hadn't discussed in this thread), and not its primaries (color gamut) unless it actually has a CMS feature. (I'm basing this assumption on your comment about errors in green, which are the most noticeable effect of using the wrong color decoding matrix.)

Good point about roundoff error. I'm not so sure though that you would always want it in the display. If minimizing roundoff error is the concern, I would think that you would always want it where the other facets of video processing (deinterlacing, scaling, noise reduction) are being performed so as to use the full bit resolution throughout. From what I can gather about CMS, it sounds as though the modified primary and secondary information has to be measured anyway so it could be done anywhere and not necessarily in the display.
Modern scalers are starting to shift over to 10 bit pipelines now anyway. If you use 10/12 bit 4:2:2 YCbCr over HDMI (or have two components with Deep Color support), you can avoid dither issues. It is a lot of ducks to have in a row, of course.

Two final factoids of note on CMSs: You really want this to be done in the display if at all possible since you frequently have 10 bits or more for each channel internally. By contrast, a video processor has to squeeze any corrections into the 8-bit video it sends to the display. Thus, if you are trying to make some subtle changes, 8-bits may not give you the right granularity, and it may also introduce banding or other artifacts. I'm always skeptical of such things external to the display.
This is related to why it will take years to see any video benefit from HDMI 1.3. All HDMI versions can transmit 12-bit 4:2:2 YCbCr (or 8-bit RGB/4:4:4 YCbCr), but HDMI 1.3 adds Deep Color that allows up to 16-bit 4:4:4 RGB and 4:4:4 YCbCr. However, most current video processing chips in projectors use 10-bit 4:2:2 YCbCr processing. Only a few use 10-bit 4:4:4 YCbCr processing, and it will probably be years before any take advantage of the higher bit depth HDMI 1.3 Deep Color modes.

Only a few use 10-bit 4:4:4 YCbCr processing, and it will probably be years before any take advantage of the higher bit depth HDMI 1.3 Deep Color modes.
The advantages of 4:4:4 processing of 4:2:0 source material isn't huge anyway. Deep Color will only become truely meaningful when there's actual software that supports it, and that may well not happen until HD-DVD and Blu-ray's successor format, whatever shape or form that may come in.

However, because some upconverting DVD players incorrectly do not transcode SD-DVDs from Rec. 601 YCbCr to Rec. 709 YCbCr when upconverting to 720p or 1080i/p, the projector should ALWAYS allow the user to manually select Rec. 601 or Rec. 709 color decoding to fix that problem in the DVD player (or in some cases a video processor/scaler/upconverter that has the same problem).Thanks for this Greg. It's not something that had occurred to me. I would hope that the majority of external VP manufacturers implement this correctly in their products, but who knows...

Yes, I can conirm it...

Yes - there was no doubt in my mind what-so-ever that JVC would get the Demo Alley "Best Video Demo Experience" award at EHXpo. And rightly so!

I guess I never officially posted it a few days ago. I'm in also.

Thanks for all the help with my questions, Jason. I can't wait until it comes in.

The advantages of 4:4:4 processing of 4:2:0 source material isn't huge anyway. Deep Color will only become truely meaningful when there's actual software that supports it, and that may well not happen until HD-DVD and Blu-ray's successor format, whatever shape or form that may come in.
It is going to happen with the Sony PS3 and video games first. May be a long time before Blu-ray and HD-DVD do it.

There could be some terminology confusion going on here. There are two totally different issues that affect color accuracy and unfortunately both are sometimes wrongly (IMO) referred to as color space. The CMS discussion refers to creating/using the correct primary (and subsequently the correct complementary) colors based on the ITU Rec. 709 standard for HD, and the SMPTE-C (applies to Rec. 601 video) standard for SD. IMO, this could be referred to as the projector's native (or effective) color space or color gamut. So far we have only been talking about that issue (with respective to CMS). My comments in the Yamaha review excerpt regarding professional HD monitors still using SMPTE-C primaries also refers to that issue.

A second issue is correctly decoding YCbCr (digital) or YPbPr (analog) input signals to RGB signals. Those RGB signals are what internally (within the projector) produce the native (or pseudo) R, G, B image colors. This should be called the projector's Color Decoding Matrix, and not the projector's "color space" in my opinion. The conversion of YCbCr(YPbPr) to RGB is very different for HD (Rec. 709) and SD (Rec. 601). These standards establish the correct color encoding and decoding matrices. A projector must have both decoding matrices to be compatible with SD and HD signals.

A projector should automatically switch to the correct Color Decoding Matrix, and to the correct color space/gamut (primaries/complementary colors) if a CMS feature is included, based on whether the incoming signals are SD (480i/p) or HD (720p, 1080i/p). This should be done automatically as a convenience to the user (and because most users would never get it right otherwise). However, because some upconverting DVD players incorrectly do not transcode SD-DVDs from Rec. 601 YCbCr to Rec. 709 YCbCr when upconverting to 720p or 1080i/p, the projector should ALWAYS allow the user to manually select Rec. 601 or Rec. 709 color decoding to fix that problem in the DVD player (or in some cases a video processor/scaler/upconverter that has the same problem). In addition, if the projector also has a CMS feature that is automatically set to Rec. 709 or SMPTE-C color primaries based on input signal format, it should also have manual Rec. 709/SMPTE-C switching to allow the user to select SMPTE-C primaries because many professional monitors used for telecine have uncorrected SMPTE-C primaries.

I don't know if the RS-1 has any kind of CMS feature or not, but your discussion with Tom probably referred to its Color Decoding Matrix (which we hadn't discussed in this thread), and not its primaries (color gamut) unless it actually has a CMS feature. (I'm basing this assumption on your comment about errors in green, which are the most noticeable effect of using the wrong color decoding matrix.)

Hi Greg, very astute. Yes my discussion with Tom was really geared to what you're referring to as color matrix decoding. Also pardon my naivete but this also brings up some other interesting questions. Is it pretty much the case nowadays that designers of display devices design the physical primaries specifically for Rec 709 and then use the color decoding matrix to transform YCbCr (and YPbPr) 601 color information into not just RGB but also transformed so that the 709 primaries can be used? Do you know if this last transformation (going from 601 to 709) happens as part of the color decoding matrix or does it happen after?

If it's like the SX-21 and HD2K it's up, down,right,left, enter pressed in rapid succesion from the remote control :) This gets you into the service menu w/ the RGB gain control settings.

Are you sure it's not up up down down left right left right a b a b select select start? Couldn't resist. :D

Are you sure it's not up up down down left right left right a b a b select select start? Couldn't resist. :D

At first I thought that the implementor of the code must have been "crossing it up Catholic style":
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Crossing+it+up%2C+Catholic+Style

But then I realized that it was up, down, right, left rather than up, down, left right :D

Is it pretty much the case nowadays that designers of display devices design the physical primaries specifically for Rec 709 and then use the color decoding matrix to transform YCbCr (and YPbPr) 601 color information into not just RGB but also transformed so that the 709 primaries can be used? Do you know if this last transformation (going from 601 to 709) happens as part of the color decoding matrix or does it happen after?
I would say that most front projector manufacturers go for a native color gamut that is larger than even the Rec. 709 primaries, particularly in red and often green. This produces a more deeply saturated picture so it impresses a lot of people and they probably sell more projectors. However, the entire color gamut is then not accurate. Many people don't care unless flesh tones are objectionable (which would usually be too red or too purple). The argument used to "technically" justify this practice is that the Rec. 709 color gamut is too restrictive and can't produce greens or reds that accurately render some real objects. Making the color gamut wider won't make those objects accurate except by accident (since the camera or telecine doesn't have the same wider color gamut). However, since the colors are more saturated they may look more accurate for the extreme cases, but wrong everywhere else.

Unless the projector has some type of (user adjustable) CMS feature, it isn't common to include color correction to produce the correct color primaries for Rec. 601 (or Rec. 709) signals. In any event, that can NOT be done accurately by simply changing the YCbCr to RGB color decoding matrix, plus you would also like any color correction to apply to RGB input signals. So color correction should be done later in the video chain after YCbCr to RGB decoding. However, it can be done earlier, but that introduces more technical issues, that from a practical point of view make it more difficult to achieve adequate adjustment precision, and may result in serious inaccuracies if the designer cuts corners to simplify the processing. (I've done it with and without cutting the corners, so I know the effects.)

Is JVC planning an RPTV variant of the RS1 with a wiregrid polarizer?

Unless the projector has some type of (user adjustable) CMS feature, it isn't common to include color correction to produce the correct color primaries for Rec. 601 (or Rec. 709) signals.
Greg,
Is it feasible for an outboard processor/scaler to provide this capability in the form of offsets from the primary coordinates? One could then put the two in memories and call them up to apply with specific sources. If feasible,...Jim Peterson, are you listening? :D Heaven knows the Lumagens provide about every other calibration bell and whistle one could wish for.

I would say that most front projector manufacturers go for a native color gamut that is larger than even the Rec. 709 primaries, particularly in red and often green. This produces a more deeply saturated picture so it impresses a lot of people and they probably sell more projectors. However, the entire color gamut is then not accurate. Many people don't care unless flesh tones are objectionable (which would usually be too red or too purple). The argument used to "technically" justify this practice is that the Rec. 709 color gamut is too restrictive and can't produce greens or reds that accurately render some real objects. Making the color gamut wider won't make those objects accurate except by accident (since the camera or telecine doesn't have the same wider color gamut). However, since the colors are more saturated they may look more accurate for the extreme cases, but wrong everywhere else.


Amazing! You would think that accuracy could be made a selling point. The front projector crowd is a little more sophisticated than the users in other display markets. Perhaps if a company designed and marketed a unit based on color accuracy they would sell more units based on this feature alone.


Unless the projector has some type of (user adjustable) CMS feature, it isn't common to include color correction to produce the correct color primaries for Rec. 601 (or Rec. 709) signals. In any event, that can NOT be done accurately by simply changing the YCbCr to RGB color decoding matrix, plus you would also like any color correction to apply to RGB input signals. So color correction should be done later in the video chain after YCbCr to RGB decoding. However, it can be done earlier, but that introduces more technical issues, that from a practical point of view make it more difficult to achieve adequate adjustment precision, and may result in serious inaccuracies if the designer cuts corners to simplify the processing. (I've done it with and without cutting the corners, so I know the effects.)

Very interesting and also pretty surprising. If I understand this correctly we have a situation where it's common practice for projectors to support Rec 709 and 601 but not to offer CMS or another form of color correction to fix the mismatch between the physical primaries with what is expected by the 601 source material. So for these projectors, the colors will be more accurate when displaying HD source material and less accurate for SD source material. So in this aspect the newer HD capable displays are actually less SD color accurate than the older displays that were designed to display only 601? Yeah, I can see a real need for CMS now :)

Thanks for all the great input guys about the CMS and so forth. The reason I brought this issue forward is because I wanted this discussion to hopefully raise the level of awareness within JVC and their engineers about how important this control control and CMS actually is - so that it doesn't get overlooked.

I hope that Greg will be raving about the color and his ability to dial it in nearly perfectly down the road when he reviews the RS1 (and not instead having to remark that like the Pearl and Ruby the RS1 is similarly restrictive when it comes to calibrating color...).

JVC - are you getting this? Hopefully so. :) Thanks!

Yeah, I can see a real need for CMS now
Mark, maybe the unit you saw lacked a CMS just because it was a preproduction unit. This is where it would be nice if Tom were to give us an idea of what we will and won't be able to do with the production RS1... ;)

Greg,
Is it feasible for an outboard processor/scaler to provide this capability in the form of offsets from the primary coordinates? One could then put the two in memories and call them up to apply with specific sources. If feasible,...Jim Peterson, are you listening? :D Heaven knows the Lumagens provide about every other calibration bell and whistle one could wish for.

The weakness here is not specifically in what the VP CAN do, it is in how it talks to the display. Despite HDMI 1.1/1.2 being available, source units are still, by and large, talking to displays in 8-bits. So, even if the math were done in 10-bits internally, it is collapsed into 8-bit for output. Lumagen could bypass this, but has anyone tested a consumer display using 10-bit signals? (Greg? ;) ).

For my money, I know that the internal processing in a DLP is something like 12 or 14 bits. Even the HS51 used 12-bits internally, IIRC. This is why I say leave the CMS to the projector manufacturer so we can take advantage of the increased bit depth available internally.

That being said, what CAN be in JVC's control prior to release would be a decent gamma curve that really is 2.2 at black and white, rather than these monstrosities with a low level gamma approximating 3.0 or greater (crushing shadow details) and dropping to sub 2.0 at the high end (crushing whites). Please JVC, give us a good gamma curve, and I will probably not care too much about the primary locations. :)

Bill

The weakness here is not specifically in what the VP CAN do, it is in how it talks to the display. Despite HDMI 1.1/1.2 being available, source units are still, by and large, talking to displays in 8-bits. So, even if the math were done in 10-bits internally, it is collapsed into 8-bit for output. Lumagen could bypass this, but has anyone tested a consumer display using 10-bit signals? (Greg? ;) ).
You can do CMS in an external video processor. How it talks to the display is one issue, but there is more to it than that. As I said above:

"... that introduces more technical issues, that from a practical point of view make it more difficult to achieve adequate adjustment precision, and may result in serious inaccuracies if the designer cuts corners to simplify the processing. (I've done it with and without cutting the corners, so I know the effects.)"

That was worded quite carefully. I don't want to be a more specific about the technical details, because I consider that my proprietary knowledge.

I'm with you 100% on this, Bill! If I have to sacrifice something, I would rather give up a little bit of color accuracy in exchange for a nicely shaped 2.2 gamma curve (and maybe a few other gamma curves more appropriate for movie fans). Without a good gamma curve shadow detail can go right down the toilet, as well as providing abnormal brightness in mid and higher stimulus areas of the scene.

Of course, ideally it would be nice to have it all...:D
That was worded quite carefully. I don't want to be a more specific about the technical details, because I consider that my proprietary knowledge.
So are you perhaps designing a video processor, Greg? :)

how will this DLA-RS1 compare to my SX-21? The CR looks better of course, but what about the brightness figure... it seems half the lumens of the SX-21.
My room is totally dark except for whatever lightspill comes from the projector....

Thoughts? is this a no brainer upgrade from the SX-21?

not sure if the sx-21 will be any brighter. Its no difference between the RS1 and a DLP projector rated at 1000 lumens. The difference will be minimal as JVC is now accurately reflecting what the projector can actually do especially as JVC calibrates the machines compared to other manufacturers that may not do the same. In other words, the 700 lumens the RS1 is doing can be the same the SX-21 was rated at

And yes, it a no brainer. The difference between the Sx-21 is the RS1 is substanial

Danial, I think the SX-21 lumens were listed in the JVC spec at 1500 lumen's.
I would be more than interested in Tom's response to tzucc's question as well.

EDIT: Can't remember where lumen's ended up post Wm's precise D65 calibration, roughly 700 ?

how will this DLA-RS1 compare to my SX-21? The CR looks better of course, but what about the brightness figure... it seems half the lumens of the SX-21.
My room is totally dark except for whatever lightspill comes from the projector....

Thoughts? is this a no brainer upgrade from the SX-21?

Calibrated to D65 the SX-21 is actually a little dimmer than a G-15 that is also calibrated at D65. I would expect the calibrated lumens to be close but a little lower than the RS1. The RS1 will be better in every respect... even price! (comparing MSRPs at product launch that is).

thanks Mark. as in all else A/V, I didn't want to buy based on the datasheet alone.

too bad I seem to have missed the pre-buy... I was one of the early adopters of the SX21 after seeing it preview at CEDIA years ago.

It looks like the guys at Audioholics also attended the EH Expo and had a chance to view the RS1:

http://www.audioholics.com/news/editorials/EHX20062.php

Yes - and looks like they were mighty impressed too!

Hi

In the hope that this thread is being carefully monitored by the folks at JVC, I would like to raise the issue of remote control of the RS1 projector.

I bought the earlier DIL HX1 almost as soon as it came out and am now on the pre buy list for the RS1. As much as I have enjoyed the PQ of the HX1 over the years, it has been very difficult to integrate the projector into my cinema control system. I started trying to use simple IR control. First there are no discrete ON/OFF codes. Why manufactures still do not provide these I simply cannot understand. Even if they cannot afford the cost of an extra button on the remote control, recognizing additional codes is surly simply a firmware issue. Then there is the control of the projector functions.

I used the HX1 with an HDMI switcher to input both HDCP video from the D-Theater tape and later the Toshiba HD-A1 and non HDPC video from my HTPC. There is a menu option on the HX1 for changing from PC to HDCP signals, but this is buried on the second page of a list of options that need on screen cursor controls to activate. Programing a sequence of Menu -> Down -> Down-> Right-> Down-> etc. is difficult, but it becomes impossible if the Menu sequence starts from the last used main option, rather that the top of the menu tree each time you run the sequence.

REQUEST 1: Please give as many discrete IR codes as possible, especially those involved with different video formats or aspect ratios that could be changed depending on the video source being viewed

As I could not make IR work reliably even for this simple operation, I moved over to using the RS232 control input. I wrote a special RS232 driver for the Charmed Quark (http://www.charmedquark.com) control software. This works, except that I can only control a limited number of functions as the JVC RS232 control protocol does not support asychronous commands properly. When you send an RS232 control string to, for example, change the panel display mode, the HX1 send an acknowledgement string to say that if has received a command, but it does not tell you what command it is. So it is impossible to write a proper driver that locks responses to commands. You can only do this indirectly, by counting the number of bytes returned. Since most of the possible commands return the same number of bytes, this really limits the functionality of the driver.

REQUEST 2: Please modify the RS232 command protocol to echo the Command code bytes in the Response string.

These may seem like minor issues in comparison with all the neat improvements in PQ, but as the RS1 has a lot more capability, including we hope the vertical stretch for 2.35:1 CH display, it will become even more frustrating to have to sit in the dark with a remote control trying to get it to do what you require.

PJG

"First there are no discrete ON/OFF codes."

Really? They took a step backwards then. My G10 had discrete ON/OFF codes. Totally agree that discretes are important.

Shawn

If anyone is interested in looking at the Nov. 14, Japanese Press Release spec sheet, it has the fan noise listed at 25db, not 27db as previously stated. It's not much of a difference but every little bit helps. :)


http://www.jvc-victor.co.jp/english/press/2006/dla-hd1.pdf

If anyone is interested in looking at the Nov. 14, Japanese Press Release spec sheet, it has the fan noise listed at 25db, not 27db as previously stated. It's not much of a difference but every little bit helps. :)


http://www.jvc-victor.co.jp/english/press/2006/dla-hd1.pdf

Nice find, this is an English translation of the Japanese press release. It lists the 25db spec as "normal mode", which is where the discrepancy might come from. Perhaps normal mode is the low bulb setting.

This is the most up-to-date spec list; inaddition to the 25 dB noise level, it lists 15,000:1 CR and 700 lumens.

Technically, the press release does refere to it by a different model #, the DLA-HD1 and it comes in white. For all intents and purposes though, it is the sme pj.

Normal mode on some projectors is the high mode, which would make the econo mode even more quiet. Who knows....either way, I dont see this as an issue in any way personally. Still plenty quiet.

On the other hand it also shows an "aperture rate" of only 88%. I assume "aperture rate" really means "aperture ratio" which is much lower than expected from the Doi presentation. I would have expected 95% or thereabouts. It might be an error.

There could be some terminology confusion going on here. There are two totally different issues that affect color accuracy and unfortunately both are sometimes wrongly (IMO) referred to as color space. The CMS discussion refers to creating/using the correct primary (and subsequently the correct complementary) colors based on the ITU Rec. 709 standard for HD, and the SMPTE-C (applies to Rec. 601 video) standard for SD. IMO, this could be referred to as the projector's native (or effective) color space or color gamut. So far we have only been talking about that issue (with respective to CMS). My comments in the Yamaha review excerpt regarding professional HD monitors still using SMPTE-C primaries also refers to that issue.

A second issue is correctly decoding YCbCr (digital) or YPbPr (analog) input signals to RGB signals. Those RGB signals are what internally (within the projector) produce the native (or pseudo) R, G, B image colors. This should be called the projector's Color Decoding Matrix, and not the projector's "color space" in my opinion. The conversion of YCbCr(YPbPr) to RGB is very different for HD (Rec. 709) and SD (Rec. 601). These standards establish the correct color encoding and decoding matrices. A projector must have both decoding matrices to be compatible with SD and HD signals.

Greg:

This is as good a description of the difference between the color gamut and color decoding as I've read. Could you expand on this a little bit, focusing on purely practical issues regarding how to identify gamut errors vs. color decoding errors and how to resolve each? For example, the RGB color bars found in Avia presumably provide, with the use of filters, a visual indication of RGB saturation and tint. If you see errors here, is this a color decoding error or a gamut error? I always thought it was a decoding error, but now I'm not sure.

One experience with this I had was when I worked with the Optoma HD3000 external video processor, which claimed a full CMS system. When I adjusted the RGBCMY values to achieve an accurate gamut as revealed on the CIE chart, the colors looked wrong, flat and very undersaturated. When I made the adjustments against the Avia color bars and filters the color looked extremely good. I determined from this experience that the Optoma CMS was not a true CMS, but rather a color matrix adjustment. Does this seem correct?

What is the aperture rate exactly Mark? What does this do?

Aperture ratio is JVC speak for fill ratio. It's the ratio of the active pixel area to the total pixel area (including the inactive region between pixels). Mathematically it's defined as A^2/B^2 where A is the width of the active portion of the pixel and B is the width of the total pixel. The higher the fill ratio the less noticeable the pixel grid.

On a completely different topic. There is some discussion on liquid crystal image smearing in this thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=755076

While reading up on the PWM digital backplane scheme it occured to me that the new drive scheme completely removes 8-bar uniformity problems because 8-bar column addressing is no longer needed. If anyone remembers the difficulties in getting 8-bar set properly using the Dilard wizard in the old G series projectors, they know what I'm talking about.

I was originally interested in the Optoma HD81, primarily because of the two piece construction that allowed me input all my video sources in the equipment cabinet and have a single HDMI video source output to the projector (RS232 not withstanding). The RS1 now looks like a better fit for my HT, and I have a couple of general questions since this is my first foray into DP territory.

1) Do all of you have VPs or digital A/Vs to handle the multiple inputs or are you running individual HDMI (2), component (1), etc cables from the sources to the RS1?

2) What VP or digital A/V receivers would you recommend if needed.

3) If you use a VP or A/V receiver, do you just use the HDMI output to send native 480i, 1080i, etc so that the RS1 scales, upconverts, and de-interlaces, or do you process in the VP first for display only on the RS1?

I hope these questions are not too mundane for the forum. I am building a HT and need to understand what equipment I need to purchase.

Thanks,

SLP
Columbia, Md.

If anyone is interested in looking at the Nov. 14, Japanese Press Release spec sheet, it has the fan noise listed at 25db, not 27db as previously stated. It's not much of a difference but every little bit helps. :)


Keep in mind a 3db decrease is half the amount of sound. So, a 2db decrease is significant. I suspect that, when all is said and done, the JVC, in low lamp mode, will not be the loudest projector in its class. I base this on JVC's reputation for publishing conservative specifications for their projectors.

1) Do all of you have VPs or digital A/Vs to handle the multiple inputs or are you running individual HDMI (2), component (1), etc cables from the sources to the RS1?

2) What VP or digital A/V receivers would you recommend if needed.

3) If you use a VP or A/V receiver, do you just use the HDMI output to send native 480i, 1080i, etc so that the RS1 scales, upconverts, and de-interlaces, or do you process in the VP first for display only on the RS1?Since the RS1 already includes high-quality Gennum scaling and deinterlacing, you really don't need an external device for this purpose. You might want to consider a good AV prepro to act as a switching device. The Anthem AVM40 (MSRP $3700) would be a good choice.

Thanks Tom,

I will research the Anthem AVM40.

If you consider the Optoma 81 and Sharp 20K, it already is not the loudest PJ in its class. Right now, atleast according to the numbers, it is midpack.

Keep in mind a 3db decrease is half the amount of sound. So, a 2db decrease is significant.

That's only in terms of the power required to produce the sound. In terms of human perception (which is logarithmic), 1db is generally the smallest difference in sound level that a human can perceive. So 2db is barely perceptible, and you'd probably never notice any difference except in a direct A/B comparison.

--
Steve

What percentage fill ratio is the competition at? Optoma 81, Pearl, 5000, Panny 1000?

I too am on the RS1 preorder and echo the importance of JVC ensuring both requests by Steppen above are included. These are:

REQUEST 1: Please give as many discrete IR codes as possible, especially those involved with different video formats or aspect ratios that could be changed depending on the video source being viewed[/QUOTE]

REQUEST 2: Please modify the RS232 command protocol to echo the Command code bytes in the Response string.[/QUOTE]

I was originally interested in the Optoma HD81, primarily because of the two piece construction that allowed me input all my video sources in the equipment cabinet and have a single HDMI video source output to the projector (RS232 not withstanding). The RS1 now looks like a better fit for my HT, and I have a couple of general questions since this is my first foray into DP territory.

1) Do all of you have VPs or digital A/Vs to handle the multiple inputs or are you running individual HDMI (2), component (1), etc cables from the sources to the RS1?

2) What VP or digital A/V receivers would you recommend if needed.

3) If you use a VP or A/V receiver, do you just use the HDMI output to send native 480i, 1080i, etc so that the RS1 scales, upconverts, and de-interlaces, or do you process in the VP first for display only on the RS1?

I hope these questions are not too mundane for the forum. I am building a HT and need to understand what equipment I need to purchase.

Thanks,

SLP
Columbia, Md.


While I completely agree with what Tom said I will answer your questions more directly:

1. I would guess that most of us have video processors and/or pre-pros/receivers that handle video switching duties. I personally use a video processor for a number of reasons including (i) greater flexibility than having both in the same box (ii) theoretically better sound due to less interference and (iii) much better flexibility in that my video processor has more inputs/ouputs as well as allows for greater tweakability...recommendation, if you can afford a video processor get one as you will not be disappointed.

2. As far as video processors are concerned budget always creaps in. The better known/thought of brand names include Crystallo, DVDO, and Lumagen with my preference being Lumagen. And yes to everyone else I have spent time with all three.

3. Video processos to send a 1080p signal to the RS-1. That is, if the video processor cannot do a batter job than the RS-q then do not get one...

Hope the above is helpful.

"On the other hand it also shows an "aperture rate" of only 88%. I assume "aperture rate" really means "aperture ratio" which is much lower than expected from the Doi presentation. I would have expected 95% or thereabouts. It might be an error."

Or it might be part of the new chip technology. perhaps some of the increased CR was achieved by isolating the pixels a bit.

Technically, the press release does refere to it by a different model #, the DLA-HD1 and it comes in white. For all intents and purposes though, it is the sme pj.
JVC-Victor routinely give completely different model numbers to products sold inside Japan and those sold outside, so it's nothing to worry about.


On the other hand it also shows an "aperture rate" of only 88%. I assume "aperture rate" really means "aperture ratio" which is much lower than expected from the Doi presentation. I would have expected 95% or thereabouts. It might be an error.
I agree, it raised my eyebrow too. But I don't think it's an error. Perhaps it's the consequence of their new approach to inter-pixel gaps?

While reading up on the PWM digital backplane scheme it occured to me that the new drive scheme completely removes 8-bar uniformity problems because 8-bar column addressing is no longer needed. If anyone remembers the difficulties in getting 8-bar set properly using the Dilard wizard in the old G series projectors, they know what I'm talking about.
And good riddance! Vertical banding is an exceptionally irritating artifact once you start seeing it, so I'm glad to see the last of it.


Keep in mind a 3db decrease is half the amount of sound. So, a 2db decrease is significant. I suspect that, when all is said and done, the JVC, in low lamp mode, will not be the loudest projector in its class. I base this on JVC's reputation for publishing conservative specifications for their projectors.
2dB is a difference in volume by about a third, but it's a barely perceivable one when you factor in the logarithmic nature of human hearing. Still, no complaints.

A change of 11dB roughly corresponds to a perceived doubling/halving of volume. If anyone disagrees with this, please take it up with Bob Stuart at Meridian, not me!

Keep in mind a 3db decrease is half the amount of sound.

No, 3 dB is half the output power. The perceived volume decrease is much smaller, on the order of about 10%. To get 'half' the volume requires a roughly 10 dB reduction in output power.

Keep in mind a 3db decrease is half the amount of sound. So, a 2db decrease is significant. I suspect that, when all is said and done, the JVC, in low lamp mode, will not be the loudest projector in its class. I base this on JVC's reputation for publishing conservative specifications for their projectors.

You are confusing input power with sound output level. The ratio of input power to sound output level is logarithmic. Half the input power results in a 3db decrease in sound output level. Most people cannot tell the difference in a 1 db change in sound output level. Most people could probably just be able to tell the difference in a 2db change with 3db being detected as a very small change in sound output level. Reducing the input power be a factor of 10 results in a 10 db reduction. It is generally agreed that a 10 db change is perceived as "half" the sound output. The net result of this is that 3db is not much of a perceived difference.

On the fence between picking Pearl or JVC DLA-RS1 -- just came across a post with Pearl owner having problems with dust blobs :( .

I know that LCD PJs are prone to problems with dust blobs / dead pixels. What about RS1 ? Is it possible for it to develop DB/DP problem ?

Thanks for your help, Davie.

What's up eclipse98? I am in Denver as well :)

The JVC warranty for the RS1 does cover dead pixels, but to what extent I dont know.

Do we know whether the optics are sealed or not? This would eliminate dust blob problem-

Do we know whether the optics are sealed or not? This would eliminate dust blob problem-

This was covered on the first post of this thread:

"Sealed optics? - The panels are sealed but the optics are filtered similar to the HD10K, HD2K, etc.".

"On the other hand it also shows an "aperture rate" of only 88%. I assume "aperture rate" really means "aperture ratio" which is much lower than expected from the Doi presentation. I would have expected 95% or thereabouts. It might be an error."

Or it might be part of the new chip technology. perhaps some of the increased CR was achieved by isolating the pixels a bit.


I agree, it raised my eyebrow too. But I don't think it's an error. Perhaps it's the consequence of their new approach to inter-pixel gaps?


I'm still hopeful that it's a misprint. The new technology should help to increase the fill ratio rather than to reduce it. When I looked at the pixel grid of the RS1 at the Expo, it seemed less pronounced than what I remember from my HD2K even though it was being displayed on a larger effective screen size (compared to my HD2K at home). As I mentioned in my comments though, focus has a lot to do with it and I wasn't able to directly compare it with the HD10K because the 10K used an anamorphic lens. Another thing about JVC's fill ratio numbers - with the last generation of panels, JVC quoted various numbers for fill ratios (usually 88%-93%) with the exact same panels.

What is SXRD at as far as fill ratio? Surely it cant be a significant, noticable difference.

Do dust blobs usually come from dust on the panels, or elsewhere in the optics? I have a Panny 700 that gets dust blobs pretty regulalry, despite frequent cleaning and being covered when not in use. To clear em out, I have to remove the projector cover (about 10 screws to do so) and blow compressed air into the panels - a real pain in the butt. If I'm going to have to perform the same gymnastics with the JVC, I might have to reconsider my choice and look at the Mitsu, which reportedly is completely sealed.

Anyone know?

What is SXRD at as far as fill ratio? Surely it cant be a significant, noticable difference.

I've heard SXRD numbers from 90-93% and for native 1080p DLP of 88%, I have no idea how accurate these numbers are though, my eyesight isn't good enough to measure them :D Also for what it's worth I thought that SDE on a Pearl looked nearly identical to my HD2K - amazingly so.

Do dust blobs usually come from dust on the panels, or elsewhere in the optics? I have a Panny 700 that gets dust blobs pretty regulalry, despite frequent cleaning and being covered when not in use. To clear em out, I have to remove the projector cover (about 10 screws to do so) and blow compressed air into the panels - a real pain in the butt. If I'm going to have to perform the same gymnastics with the JVC, I might have to reconsider my choice and look at the Mitsu, which reportedly is completely sealed.

Anyone know?

This is a good question for somebody who has cycled through a lot of projectors (someone like Wm). Fwiw, the only dust blobs on a DILA that I've ever seen were from a bad panel seal on a G15. Wm spotted the problem during calibration and I returned the unit for a full refund. With DILA the panels are normally sealed to prevent dust from entering, some G series projectors had an issue with panel seals though and if dust entered it was noticeable and uncorrectable and it would usually get worse over time. I've never noticed dust globs in the optics though and I assume this is due to fact that the dust is not at the focal point (unlike the panels). At any rate, I think dust blobs are a non issue assuming that there aren't any defects in the panel seal of the RS1.

"JVC-Victor..."

A bit of trivia: JVC = Japan Victor Company

I'm also on the RS1 list and am concerned about it being too bright. My scope screen (High Power material) is 125" wide with projector just over my head - get real world 2 gain in a very dark, light controlled room. Like to keep brightness to 8 to 15 Ft Lamberts - without ND filter, using lower lamp setting, that puts me at about 22 ft lamberts, too high for my taste.

I remember reading about having to slightly tilt an ND filter to avoid loss to contrast - keep light from reflecting back into the projector. Question is, is there another way of handling this because I would like to butt my ISCO 3 right up to the lens? If the ND filter is coated, is it really necessary to tilt? Thanks.

just raise your projector a little higher if its too bright?

just raise your projector a little higher if its too bright?


Thanks for the suggestion. I thought about doing that but as you can see by the attached photo, projector will be housed inside a hush box built into the rear wall and it's too much of a pain to move it.

Mark, not that I am in any complaining as I BOTH greatly appreciate and value your insights BUT do you ever sleep or work as it appears that you are always posting here :) ....kep it up!

there are no dust issues with JVC recent D-ILA. bullet proof

I thought about doing that but as you can see by the attached photo, projector will be housed inside a hush box built into the rear wall and it's too much of a pain to move it.
Sharp looking theater! May I ask what you used for the ceiling panels?

Sharp looking theater! May I ask what you used for the ceiling panels?

Thanks, the ceiling panels are RPG Skylines.

Looks great, thanks!

Mark, not that I am in any complaining as I BOTH greatly appreciate and value your insights BUT do you ever sleep or work as it appears that you are always posting here :) ....kep it up!

Sleep is overrated :D I'm also keenly interested in the RS1 and I guess it shows lol.

Is it too early for those of us on the RS1 preorder list to start trying to decide on a screen? I've been assuming that I would get a HighPower, 119" to 126" diag, mounted on a stand right behind and above viewers heads; this is in den, not dedicated HT--no external light, but light-colored ceiling and walls. I want the high gain (narrow viewing cone no problem, and it helps with reflected light).

BUT, it would be more convenient to mount the pj on the ceiling (it's more out of the way) further back (since there seems to be no drop in lumens if the pj is not mounted at its closest throw). But it is not at all clear to me what screen I would then chose to accomplish what the HP does with its 'low and close' location. The SilverStar would work with a ceiling mount, I think, but from what I've read it doesn't do as well with ambient (reflected) light because it DOESN'T have a narrow viewing cone. What would be good choices for ceiling mount that have high gain and a narrow viewing cone?

Also, note to Tom Stites: I presume you will post here,or somewhere, info on where to see the RS1 at the CES in Las Vegas (since JVC is not on the Exhibitor List). This is certainly one of my top priorities during the 2 days that I will be there.

There has been a lot of discussion on the forum that it would have been nice of JVC to add a fixed iris on the RS1 so that people could both throttle back the lumens while at the same time increasing the contrast ratio. The thought occurred to me though that this lumens for contrast relationship isn't necessarily a given with this projector (at least not to the extent that we've grown used to). The reason why is because an iris normally works by reducing both overall light and off-axis light, but because more off-axis light is removed than the overall light the contrast goes up. But with such a high native CR projector much of the off-axis light may have already been removed (via better polarizors and more uniform panels). So I'm guessing that the sort of contrast improvements we've been used to seeing by adding a fixed iris might not be achievable with this sort of a projector.

Is it too early for those of us on the RS1 preorder list to start trying to decide on a screen? I've been assuming that I would get a HighPower, 119" to 126" diag, mounted on a stand right behind and above viewers heads; this is in den, not dedicated HT--no external light, but light-colored ceiling and walls. I want the high gain (narrow viewing cone no problem, and it helps with reflected light).

BUT, it would be more convenient to mount the pj on the ceiling (it's more out of the way) further back (since there seems to be no drop in lumens if the pj is not mounted at its closest throw). But it is not at all clear to me what screen I would then chose to accomplish what the HP does with its 'low and close' location. The SilverStar would work with a ceiling mount, I think, but from what I've read it doesn't do as well with ambient (reflected) light because it DOESN'T have a narrow viewing cone. What would be good choices for ceiling mount that have high gain and a narrow viewing cone?

I usually hate to offer screen suggestions because it really comes down to personal preference. I prefer wide viewing angles, white screens, moderate ft-lamberts and no screen artifacts so my preferance leans towards a Studiotek, but to each his own.

I usually hate to offer screen suggestions because it really comes down to personal preference. I prefer wide viewing angles, white screens, moderate ft-lamberts and no screen artifacts so my preferance leans towards a Studiotek, but to each his own.

I completely agree!

But Bill doesn't have total light control, and will probably need to make some compromises on his screen to make it work.

Bill- will you be trying to use your pj during the day, or just at night when it is dark out? How much light control will you have during the day (what kind of shades/curtains etc) and how effective is it?

I completely agree!

But Bill doesn't have total light control, and will probably need to make some compromises on his screen to make it work.

Bill- will you be trying to use your pj during the day, or just at night when it is dark out? How much light control will you have during the day (what kind of shades/curtains etc) and how effective is it?

Rob, thanks for the reply. It's mostly at night, though on weekends I do watch sports during the day. We recently put up backout shades (getting ready for FP!) on the two sides windows in the room, so it's really quite dark even during the day. I am coming from a RPTV, however, so don't want to be disappointed with too dim an image; that's why I'm planning for 30 to 40 ftL with a new lamp (a la Tryg!). With even 500 lumens (low lamp mode) a 126" diag HP produces 30 ftL if the pj is optimally positioned (and 42 ftL with 700 lumens in high lamp mode). So this is my #1 plan. I was just wondering if there were any competing alternatives that would allow a ceiling mount of the pj; from what I've read, there isn't, but people here know more than I do!

FWIW, my present 73" Mits 1080p dlp RPTV doesn't light up the room to any extent at all during the evening, even thought the pic is plenty bright. Of course a FP may behave quite differently. I will be able to make sure that light-colored walls at the back of the room--that would reflect light directly to the screen--will be covered by posters, or rugs, etc.. And the top of my 126" diag HP screen will be ~ 20" from the ceiling--and the pj right about the middle of the screen--so I think the retro-reflective nature of the HP will keep ceiling reflections from being severe. None of this will really be clear, of course, until the pj is actually in the room and I start experimentling with all the possibilities. But while we're spinning our wheels waiting for more info, I can't help these planning fantasies!

Bill,

Could you do a setup similar to mine, with the pj far back but relatively low?

Mark,

"But with such a high native CR projector much of the off-axis light may have already been removed (via better polarizors and more uniform panels). "

I agree that the high CR must include good control of scattered light, but I see that as part of the optomechanical design and unrelated to the improved polarizers.