Noah, My room is only 17 ft long, and there is a door to a bathroom right at the back! So, no, it won't work as it does in your room. If the pj is not on a stand right behind our recliners, it would have to be ceiling mounted at the back of the room (above the door to the BR).

Bill, don't forget you've got the horizontal shift to work with. You could place it on a stand next to the BR door.

Is it too early for those of us on the RS1 preorder list to start trying to decide on a screen?...

See Bob Sorel's excellent "will this screen work" tutorial thread he started recently. Lots of great stuff there.

On an unrelated note - wow, we went a hair over 24 hours without a post in this thread before millerwill's. Pshew - I was getting worried there for a sec :) It's a long way to Feb... Well, hopefully we'll get more questions answered and great feedback at CEDIA or perhaps sooner depending on when Jason gets his early review unit.

Bill,

How about a shelf mount right above the bathroom door?

If you're concerned about eyesoreness, you could make the shelf semicircular with a curved front and no top (for ventilation, and which you wouldn't see anyhow).

I completely agree!

But Bill doesn't have total light control, and will probably need to make some compromises on his screen to make it work.

Bill- will you be trying to use your pj during the day, or just at night when it is dark out? How much light control will you have during the day (what kind of shades/curtains etc) and how effective is it?


But even with total light control, the colours of your walls, floor and ceiling will play a part right? So if say your ceiling is white, and you have light walls, a Studiotek may not be the best way to go. Or your room will light up like a christmas tree when the picture flashes :p

When you all say total light control does it just mean lights coming into the room?

Oliver

I completely agree!

But Bill doesn't have total light control, and will probably need to make some compromises on his screen to make it work.

Bill- will you be trying to use your pj during the day, or just at night when it is dark out? How much light control will you have during the day (what kind of shades/curtains etc) and how effective is it?

As a counter point: the constant-aperature lens of the RS1 allows you to place the ceiling-mounted PJ farther back in the room, reducing the angle to your eye... this is better for high gain screens.

I have a ceiling mounted Pearl at 14 ft from a 10' wide Hi-Power screen and love it. There is some light drop off at the sides, but it's still a great punchy picture, even though I don't have the 'ideal' setup.

Wow, lots of good suggestions! Thanks much to all of you.

smithfarmer: Yes, this has occured to me and I will certainly try out this location when I have the pj in the room. I actually have a 48" high cabinet that I can shove right up to the edge of the BR door (the lens center would then be ~ 52" above the floor--just right); this would put the lens center about 36" from the center of the screen, but the 34% horizontal lens shift for a 110" W screen is 37.4", so it will just barely work. Might be the best.

Noah: Have thought about this, but the best I could do would put the lens center ~ 7 ft above the floor, with the lens a max of ~ 15.5 ft from the screen (room is only 17 ft long). It would work, but I would loose the full gain of the HP (haven't figured how much). So I've got this on a lower priority, but will check it out (by putting the pj on a step ladder).

scaesare: How high is your Pearl mounted? With a ceiling mount, I can get the lens a max of ~15.5 ft from the screen, and about 7 ft above the floor. And boy, 120" W screen; that'a a whopper!

PS: Another factor arguing against a ceiling mount is that the HP reflects the light back to where it comes from, thus meaning more light hitting the (light-colored) ceiling. The 'low' mount on a stand or shelf should minimize this. (Am I over-analyzing this effect?)

millerwill:

My Pearl is inverted on a the bottom of a soffit that's 7' from the floor. That puts the Pearl lens at about 6' 7 or so by the time I include my Chiefe RPA mount.

There is indeed some light reflection back towards the ceiling... which is why I used flat black paint on the ceilings above the soffits.

Here are a few shots:

Side (http://caesare.homeip.net:32171/basement/slides/IMG_2007.htm)

Front (http://caesare.homeip.net:32171/basement/slides/IMG_2008.htm)

Shot with black ceiling (http://caesare.homeip.net:32171/basement/slides/IMG_2123.htm)

millerwill:

My Pearl is inverted on a the bottom of a soffit that's 7' from the floor. That puts the Pearl lens at about 6' 7 or so by the time I include my Chiefe RPA mount.

There is indeed some light reflection back towards the ceiling... which is why I used flat black paint on the ceilings above the soffits.

Here are a few shots:

Side (http://caesare.homeip.net:32171/basement/slides/IMG_2007.htm)

Front (http://caesare.homeip.net:32171/basement/slides/IMG_2008.htm)

Shot with black ceiling (http://caesare.homeip.net:32171/basement/slides/IMG_2123.htm)

Ah, very beautiful room! Thanks much.

Thanks... and of course that measurment should have been 6'7"...

Another question while we waiting around for some real news: the RS1 is supposed to produce 700 to 800 lumens, fully calibrated to 65K (we hope). But this must mean (mustn't it?) that it can produce considerably more than this if NOT fully calibrated to 65K. So will it likely be possible to set it up in (at least) 2 different modes, one the 65K mode for nighttime movies, but a brighter mode for daytime or when one doesn't want things totally blacked out?

I am on the pre-buy list and intend to buy from AVS forum. However, before the power buy, I inquired with another dealer who got back in touch with me. His price is higher by the way. I am being told that if nothing goes wrong, this projector is going to ship MID December. I called another dealer and was also given this same information. Anyone care to speculate?

I am on the pre-buy list and intend to buy from AVS forum. However, before the power buy, I inquired with another dealer who got back in touch with me. His price is higher by the way. I am being told that if nothing goes wrong, this projector is going to ship MID December. I called another dealer and was also given this same information. Anyone care to speculate?

I'm always up for speculation :D This rumor wouldn't surprise me at all. In fact JVC said they would be using a production unit at CES in early January so I assume that production units would be available before then. If this is true though, JVC should confirm it quickly so that they can capitalize on Christmas sales...

That would be the best Christmas present ever if it released mid December!!! I am on the AVS prebuy also and am sure they will keep us posted with honest and up to date information regarding any release date changes. This is going to be my first projector, so it's hard to keep my excitement in check, but part of me hopes JVC doesn't rush things. It may be more benefitial to us all if they take their time.

My brother in law has neighbor whose wife's uncle works for JVC. He said we will be getting the RS1 by the end of the first week of December. Oh yeah I forgot to mention my brother in law is a big liar. :)

My brother in law has neighbor whose wife's uncle works for JVC. He said we will be getting the RS1 by the end of the first week of December. Oh yeah I forgot to mention my brother in law is a big liar. :)

It's about time that we finally get some speculation that we can count on! :D

I'm here for you!

I'm here for you!
:D :D

In all seriousness I would be shocked if the RS1 shipped in 2-4 weeks. I mean they were still using a prototype for demo two weeks ago. Once the first pre-production units come (at CES) I would hope and believe they would put it through it's paces before finalizing the actual production units. Now unless JVC has something up their sleeve February sounds likely and reasonable.

When does JVC's quarter or fiscal year end? That can always drive these things..

I am on the pre-buy list and intend to buy from AVS forum. However, before the power buy, I inquired with another dealer who got back in touch with me. His price is higher by the way. I am being told that if nothing goes wrong, this projector is going to ship MID December. I called another dealer and was also given this same information. Anyone care to speculate?

I heard a rumor too! I heard that the JVC RS1 will actually have 1500 lumens post D65 Calibration. In addition, the fan noise is going to come in at 5db, measured 2 inches from the fan. It will also have a two box solution, and the seperate video processor will have a choice of scalers/deinterlacers (built in) from companies such as Gennum, Faroudja, ABT, Teranex, and others whose names I forget.

Native contrast ratings have also been revised to 100,000:1. Ansi Contrast is 10000:1.

All units will have perfect alignment of the panels before shipping, so there will be zero convergence issues. 1/4 pixel off will result in JVC sending you a new projector. All units are also being individually optimized by William Phelps for color uniformity.

JVC will also pay for a ISF tech to come to your HT to perform a full calibration of the projector to each source.

The bulb life has been increased to 20,000 hours. Lamp replacement cost is $19.95.

Also, JVC has instituted a new "trade in" policy. When they release a new projector, you will have the option of trading in the RS1 and receive a credit of 150% of the original retail price towards the new JVC projector. If the new projector costs less than 150% of the retail price of the RS1, you get that money in cash!

I am so impressed with JVC. It's almost too good to be true! :D

:D :D :D :D

P.S. - That lamp cost of $19.95 is too high..., I'm changing to the Pearl....

I heard a rumor too! I heard that the JVC RS1 will actually have 1500 lumens post D65 Calibration. In addition, the fan noise is going to come in at 5db, measured 2 inches from the fan. It will also have a two box solution, and the seperate video processor will have a choice of scalers/deinterlacers (built in) from companies such as Gennum, Faroudja, ABT, Teranex, and others whose names I forget.

Native contrast ratings have also been revised to 100,000:1. Ansi Contrast is 10000:1.

All units will have perfect alignment of the panels before shipping, so there will be zero convergence issues. 1/4 pixel off will result in JVC sending you a new projector. All units are also being individually optimized by William Phelps for color uniformity.

JVC will also pay for a ISF tech to come to your HT to perform a full calibration of the projector to each source.

The bulb life has been increased to 20,000 hours. Lamp replacement cost is $19.95.

Also, JVC has instituted a new "trade in" policy. When they release a new projector, you will have the option of trading in the RS1 and receive a credit of 150% of the original retail price towards the new JVC projector. If the new projector costs less than 150% of the retail price of the RS1, you get that money in cash!

I am so impressed with JVC. It's almost too good to be true! :D

I think thats the first time I've laughed OUT LOAD while reading at his forum! :D :D :D

I heard a rumor too! I heard that the JVC RS1 will actually have 1500 lumens post D65 Calibration. In addition, the fan noise is going to come in at 5db, measured 2 inches from the fan. It will also have a two box solution, and the seperate video processor will have a choice of scalers/deinterlacers (built in) from companies such as Gennum, Faroudja, ABT, Teranex, and others whose names I forget.

Native contrast ratings have also been revised to 100,000:1. Ansi Contrast is 10000:1.

All units will have perfect alignment of the panels before shipping, so there will be zero convergence issues. 1/4 pixel off will result in JVC sending you a new projector. All units are also being individually optimized by William Phelps for color uniformity.

JVC will also pay for a ISF tech to come to your HT to perform a full calibration of the projector to each source.

The bulb life has been increased to 20,000 hours. Lamp replacement cost is $19.95.

Also, JVC has instituted a new "trade in" policy. When they release a new projector, you will have the option of trading in the RS1 and receive a credit of 150% of the original retail price towards the new JVC projector. If the new projector costs less than 150% of the retail price of the RS1, you get that money in cash!

I am so impressed with JVC. It's almost too good to be true! :D

This is really disappointing news, I was hoping that they would have added a dynamic iris :(

:D

mehhh.
I'll wait till sony ships their version with DI for 300,000:1 contrast

That Rob Tomlin always has his head in the clouds... ;)

That db figure is still way too high---it will drown out the fart noise in Blazing Saddles


psst psst

I heard a rumor too! ...
I am so impressed with JVC. It's almost too good to be true! :D
The paramedics are taking me away, I can't stop laughing. :D :D

Yes! Very nice indeed!

The paramedics are taking me away, I can't stop laughing. :D :D

Just don't get any ideas about holding me responsible for your ambulance bill! ;)

Here's a link from Japan, on the RS1 that I don't think has been posted yet.

http://avforum.no/forum/pressemeldinger-video/44724-pressemelding-jvc-introduserer-dla-hd1-1080p-d-ila-projektor-japan.html

Here's a link from Japan, on the RS1 that I don't think has been posted yet.

http://avforum.no/forum/pressemeldinger-video/44724-pressemelding-jvc-introduserer-dla-hd1-1080p-d-ila-projektor-japan.html

Good find although I didn't notice any new info.

After Rob Tomlin's post though, any positive news will be anticlimatic :)

Here's the release for the U.S. Market:

JVC Breakthrough Home Cinema Projector DLA-RS1 Delivers 15,000:1 Native Contrast Ratio and High End Performance

New Optical Engine Achieves Industry's Highest Native Contrast Ratio and True Black Reproduction

WAYNE, N.J. --(Business Wire)-- Nov. 29, 2006 JVC Professional expands its D-ILA home theater projector line-up with the introduction of the high definition DLA-RS1 projector (http://referenceseries.com), featuring its newly developed 0.7-inch full HD D-ILA device that achieves a previously unattainable native 15,000:1 contrast ratio without the need for dynamic iris or other artificial means of contrast enhancement.
As part of JVC's new Reference Series, a premium display product line, the DLA-RS1 video projector provides home theater enthusiasts with an extraordinary viewing experience at a fraction of the cost of--and with better performance than--high end digital cinemas. While the DLA-RS1 is targeted for the finest home theater installations, it is being introduced at a price that makes it accessible to a much wider range of home cinema buffs.

At the core of the DLA-RS1 is advanced video processing co-developed by JVC and Gennum Corporation, which ensures the faithful reproduction of high-quality images thanks to high-precision scaling function and Gennum's VXP(TM) technologies.

"As the flagship of our References Series product line, the DLA-RS1 is packed with advanced technologies at an affordable price, further enhancing JVC's projector line-up," said Carl Mandelbaum, national marketing manager, display products, JVC Professional Products Company. "Our research and development team continue to deliver the highest quality projectors for the home theater market."

JVC's new DLA-RS1 encompasses next generation D-ILA -- fully digital driven --making JVC the only LCOS manufacturer with a digital backplane. JVC's renowned D-ILA (Direct Drive Image Light Amplifier) chip technology in a 3-panel design, eliminates the mechanical spinning color separation wheel and "rainbow" effects found in competing technologies. JVC's newly developed 0.7-inch full HD D-ILA device exhibits a significant reduction in stray light caused by the dispersion and diffraction of reflected light.

Additionally, each of the three D-ILA chips has a native resolution of 1920 x 1080 allowing the projector to fully display a full HD 1080p signal without scaling. JVC's new optical design provides a native contrast ratio of more than 15,000 to 1, a first in home cinema projectors.

The DLA-RS1's full 1080p enable audio/video professionals and home theater enthusiasts to sit closer to the screen and open the angle of view, which provides optimum visual experience. Additionally, this projector can be used in a variety of room environments due to its adjustable 80% vertical and 34% horizontal shift lens. The 2x manual zoom lens has a range of 1.4 - 2.8:1, making it suitable for screens 60" to 200" inches wide in a typical home theater. The projector is finished in a sleek black cabinet with a non-reflective front panel to eliminate light reflections onto the projection screen.

The DLA-RS1 is equipped with dual HDMI input (PC and HDTV HDCP) accepts full HD 1080p signals provided by Blu-ray. Component, composite, and S-Video inputs are also provided. Via its RS-232 port, the unit can be externally operated by popular home theater automation controllers. Additionally, the projector features a convenient video adjustment menu that allows users to adjust the picture according to the source video as well as their own preferences.

The suggested list price for the DLA-RS1 is $6,295 and will be available Q1 2007. For more information and photos on JVC's D-ILA projectors and technology, please visit JVC's Web site at http://referenceseries.com

ABOUT JVC PROFESSIONAL PRODUCTS COMPANY

JVC Professional Products Company, located in Wayne, New Jersey, is a leading manufacturer of home theater products distributes a complete line of broadcast, professional, and security equipment. For more information about this, or any other JVC Professional Products product, contact Candace Vadnais at PFS Marketwyse 973-812-8883, ext. 430 or visit JVC's Web site at http://pro.jvc.com

Cool, this is the first time I remember seeing a pic of the RS1 with the front panel black (instead of the silver):

http://pro.jvc.com/pro/attributes/PRESENT/photos/300w/dlars1_300.jpg

Really? It's been floating around for a while. I like it all black. "It's like how much blacker could it be. And the answer is none. None more black." :)

It's only fitting that the digital projector that provides the best native black level comes fully blacked out. It's the first stealth projector lol.

Really? It's been floating around for a while. I like it all black. "It's like how much blacker could it be. And the answer is none. None more black." :)

I just knew when I posted that I would get replies saying "where ya been Tomlin, that pic's been around the net and this forum a thousand times"! Thanks for being gentle! ;)

I really like the looks of it a lot. Like Mark says, very stealthy! :)

Yep ...she's a beauty. Stealth and all.

Persons in this forum can take satisfaction in knowing that their input was listened to by JVC and incorporated into this groundbreaking projector. Even the common sense moment of being told for what they wanted to accomplish with black level, the prototype's bright colored reflective front had to go. Now they can market the non-reflective black front & literally have a better performing product. (Unless of course actually they figured it out themselves :) ) And great to finally see hi rez picture of it on the JVC link. It IS good looking!

Persons in this forum can take satisfaction in knowing that their input was listened to by JVC and incorporated into this groundbreaking projector. Even the common sense moment of being told for what they wanted to accomplish with black level, the prototype's bright colored reflective front had to go. Now they can market the non-reflective black front & literally have a better performing product. (Unless of course actually they figured it out themselves :) ) And great to finally see hi rez picture of it on the JVC link. It IS good looking!
Wheres the Beef? Let's face it 2k lumens would be more apppropiate to the Forum needs.

Wow! That is a beautifull looking PJ! I am surprised more projectors are not all black, as it seems very suitable to a HT environment.

Any info on this Gennum GF9351 chip? Is it being used in any other pj's or video processors?

Edit: Nevermind. A simple google search revealed it's being used everywhere.

We in the UK are getting the "shiny white" Japanese HD1 version, to look beautiful in domestic environments. :mad: :mad: :mad:

Dumb, dumb, dumb.

We in the UK are getting the "shiny white" Japanese HD1 version, to look beautiful in domestic environments. :mad: :mad: :mad:

Dumb, dumb, dumb.

Time to take matters into your own hands:

http://www.unitedmfrs.com/images/shop/2459.jpg

The thought had occurred to me... Hell, they might as well have given the thing a mirror finish!

Viruskiller
With that view on color I guess white shirts and t-shirts are forbidden in your theater?

lol - on the back of his theater door there are some black crushed velvet robes for everyone to change into before taking their seats

In my head there are anyway :)

lol - on the back of his theater door there are some black crushed velvet robes for everyone to change into before taking their seats

In my head there are anyway :)


LMAO :D

So has anyone (Tom) had an update on whether the RS-1 will ship with the ability to stretch 2.35:1 out of the box? This would save me purchasing a separate processor and guarantee a sale.

lol - on the back of his theater door there are some black crushed velvet robes for everyone to change into before taking their seats
I also insist on black face paint. :eek: :p

lol - on the back of his theater door there are some black crushed velvet robes for everyone to change into before taking their seats

In my head there are anyway :)


And right next to the robes are the full face welders helmets to cutdown on the reflections from the whites of his visitors eyes...as a side benefit they remove the need for scarfs as the helmets cover most of the neck region and ears also. :p

Hey. The ANSI contrast is AMAZING!!! :D

I also insist on black face paint. :eek: :p

I tell all my guests that they can't laugh or otherwise open their mouths during the movie as the reflections from their teeth can really cause chaos with my ansi contrast. They understand.

LOL! Breathing is also discouraged as this reduces the audio S/N.

LMAO - especially considering the myriad of tests I've been doing in my theater lately in trying to improve ANSI CR by covering things up with felt. Up next, black felt goggles that block the white part of the eye.

you guys would just cry if you saw my room - cream walls and ceiling, gloss white paintwork, two cream sofas, pictures with glass frames, wooden varnished floor.
Nobody is ever going to talk to me on here ever again :)

You can really tell the info has stopped trickling in... :)

you guys would just cry if you saw my room - cream walls and ceiling, gloss white paintwork, two cream sofas, pictures with glass frames, wooden varnished floor.
Nobody is ever going to talk to me on here ever again :)

Who said that?

:D

Don't you make all your guests wear one of these for movies:??

http://cgi.*********/New-Lycra-zentai-catsuit-sexy-unitard-BLACK-STOCK-S-XXL_W0QQitemZ190057594430QQihZ009QQcategoryZ4844QQrdZ1QQcmdZ ViewItem

Use e*baydotcom number 190057594430 as the link doesn't work here

Gary

I tell all my guests that they can't laugh or otherwise open their mouths during the movie as the reflections from their teeth can really cause chaos with my ansi contrast. They understand.

I insist that everyone wears a black leather bondage mask and a ball gag. :D

I insist that everyone wears a black leather bondage mask and a ball gag. :D

If this pj really isn't coming 'till Feb., this thread is doomed. You're all coming unglued. It's like you just don't know what to do with yourselves in antici..... PA-shun.

I'm on the pre-order list too, so I'm right there with ya!

Yeah.

How about a more topical frenzy about the rumour of a December release?

Never gonna happen in December. They gotta make these things first before they can sell them to us! :eek: (Probably still rampin up the assembly line in China :D )

If this pj really isn't coming 'till Feb., this thread is doomed. You're all coming unglued. It's like you just don't know what to do with yourselves in antici..... PA-shun.

I'm on the pre-order list too, so I'm right there with ya!

+1

Now that the flood of new info has been reduced to a mere trickle my only recourse now is to start worrying over whether or not the black casing is going to clash with my mid-nite blue ceiling tiles. :o

May have to repaint the tiles!!!

j/k :p

It's going to be a long couple months however. ;)

you guys are getting punchy!

:)

Is there any possibility to adjust the gamma curve manually?
Maybe I just read over this information because of the mass of posts. Even in the internet I did not found anything about that...

What would be great for me is the answers from Tom to a few questions.

First, how will the colour uniformity/shading issues be addressed so that there will not be problems from projector to projector?

Second, what options will be available to mange colour?

THird, can we expect out of the box performance to reach a level high enough to allow us to skip trips to an ISF calibrator and/or Mr. Phelps?

Since we are running out of new info on the JVC, I am going to post this here, since I am on the preorder for the JVC but have a DLP currently, and have not actually been able to see the JVC in person.

I saw a fully calibrated Sony Ruby today at a local dealer (The Digital Ear in Tustin).

First impression, which was consistent with the SXRD RPTV's I have seen, was that it was NOT "soft". It appeared to be sharp to me. Colors were excellent, very pleasing.

However, I was a little disappointed in something about the image. The only word I can think of to describe it, and I have seen it used before regarding LCoS displays, is "flat". There was a lack of depth to the image. It didn't have the "3D" effect. For example, The Fifth Element scene where Leeloo jumps off the ledge didn't seem to have the feeling of depth or 3 dimensionality that I see with DLP. I almost want to say the image lacked pop, but that isn't entirely accurate because the colors were great. Can an image still lack pop and have great colors? (I am thinking out loud here)

HD from Discovery looked good overall, but still lacking in depth or "pop".

For a PJ that is supposed to have great contrast, I had the distinct impression that what this projector was lacking was.........contrast!

Is what I saw here due to lower ANSI contrast vs DLP? Does the Pearl have higher ANSI contrast than the Ruby?? What about the JVC? How does it compare with regard to image depth vs the Ruby?

BTW, the Ruby was shooting onto a small 100" microperf screen (Stewart). Anyone who says that microperfs disappear are kidding themselves. There was a noticeable grain to the image that wasn't too pleasing.

I think what you saw was covered a little bit in the widescreen review of the pearl.

edit : I browsed the article but i couldnt find it but i thought there was some theory that the mtf might be the cause.

The jvc is suposed to have higher ansi, i think the pearl has the same ansi as the ruby.

So, the question I have for myself and the forum is how likely do you think I am to be blown away by upgrading to the RS1?

I'm in on the pre-order. My current setup is an hd2k (phelps optimized), using a dvdo vp50 for de-interlacing hd content.

Now, my system looks great now. So I'll be disappointed if I go through all the annoyance of installing a new one and don't find it much of an upgrade. Here's what I should see improvement from, in theory:

1) Another 200 lumens or so of brightness (?)
2) a large contrast improvement from 2000:1 to 15k:1 (going by specs on the web)
3) the ability to view film content at 24hz (hmm, am I going to be able to get my htpc which plays all the dvds to do this?)
4) anything else?

Do you think I'll be impressed by the change?

Since we are running out of new info on the JVC, I am going to post this here, since I am on the preorder for the JVC but have a DLP currently, and have not actually been able to see the JVC in person.

I saw a fully calibrated Sony Ruby today at a local dealer (The Digital Ear in Tustin).

First impression, which was consistent with the SXRD RPTV's I have seen, was that it was NOT "soft". It appeared to be sharp to me. Colors were excellent, very pleasing.

However, I was a little disappointed in something about the image. The only word I can think of to describe it, and I have seen it used before regarding LCoS displays, is "flat". There was a lack of depth to the image. It didn't have the "3D" effect. For example, The Fifth Element scene where Leeloo jumps off the ledge didn't seem to have the feeling of depth or 3 dimensionality that I see with DLP. I almost want to say the image lacked pop, but that isn't entirely accurate because the colors were great. Can an image still lack pop and have great colors? (I am thinking out loud here)

HD from Discovery looked good overall, but still lacking in depth or "pop".

For a PJ that is supposed to have great contrast, I had the distinct impression that what this projector was lacking was.........contrast!

Is what I saw here due to lower ANSI contrast vs DLP? Does the Pearl have higher ANSI contrast than the Ruby?? What about the JVC? How does it compare with regard to image depth vs the Ruby?

BTW, the Ruby was shooting onto a small 100" microperf screen (Stewart). Anyone who says that microperfs disappear are kidding themselves. There was a noticeable grain to the image that wasn't too pleasing.

Rob, the thing that makes me think (hope) that your worries of a 'flat' pic from the RS1 are unfounded are all the eye-witness reports we had from the CEDIA and EXPO that said the RS1 was the best pic of the shows, and in the EXPO case several people who saw the RS1 right next to the Sharp 20K dlp said that the RS1's PQ equaled or exceeded that of the Sharp in ALL aspects (sharpness, punch, etc.). I hope that their reports were not based on 'irrational exhuberance', but I think that they were very experienced videophiles. I hope that the production RS1 lives up to all this!

So, the question I have for myself and the forum is how likely do you think I am to be blown away by upgrading to the RS1?

I'm in on the pre-order. My current setup is an hd2k (phelps optimized), using a dvdo vp50 for de-interlacing hd content.

Now, my system looks great now. So I'll be disappointed if I go through all the annoyance of installing a new one and don't find it much of an upgrade. Here's what I should see improvement from, in theory:

1) Another 200 lumens or so of brightness (?)
2) a large contrast improvement from 2000:1 to 15k:1 (going by specs on the web)
3) the ability to view film content at 24hz (hmm, am I going to be able to get my htpc which plays all the dvds to do this?)
4) anything else?

Do you think I'll be impressed by the change?

Mark Petersen (the author of this thread) is upgrading from a hd2k (phelps optimized as well) to the RS1. He would be best the best man to answer your questions.

Rob, the thing that makes me think (hope) that your worries of a 'flat' pic from the RS1 are unfounded are all the eye-witness reports we had from the CEDIA and EXPO that said the RS1 was the best pic of the shows, and in the EXPO case several people who saw the RS1 right next to the Sharp 20K dlp said that the RS1's PQ equaled or exceeded that of the Sharp in ALL aspects (sharpness, punch, etc.). I hope that their reports were not based on 'irrational exhuberance', but I think that they were very experienced videophiles. I hope that the production RS1 lives up to all this!

That's correct Bill, and that certainly played into me pre-ordering the RS1!

However, even Tom Stites said that in an average picture brightness scene, the Pearl and the RS1 look very similar, but in the dark scenes the RS1 excels.

Well, if the Pearl lacks the same depth/3 dimensionality as the Ruby that I saw, I will not be happy.

That said, the fact that JVC had the RS1 displayed side by side with a Sharp DLP with positive comments from people here who saw it makes me pretty confident that will not be the case. It still makes me wonder what was up with the Ruby I saw though. :confused:

I actually know a calibrator on this forum (glenned) who actually was the one who told me about this place having the Ruby. I am going to talk to him and see what he thought of that Ruby.

So, the question I have for myself and the forum is how likely do you think I am to be blown away by upgrading to the RS1?

I'm in on the pre-order. My current setup is an hd2k (phelps optimized), using a dvdo vp50 for de-interlacing hd content.

Now, my system looks great now. So I'll be disappointed if I go through all the annoyance of installing a new one and don't find it much of an upgrade. Here's what I should see improvement from, in theory:

1) Another 200 lumens or so of brightness (?)
2) a large contrast improvement from 2000:1 to 15k:1 (going by specs on the web)
3) the ability to view film content at 24hz (hmm, am I going to be able to get my htpc which plays all the dvds to do this?)
4) anything else?

Do you think I'll be impressed by the change?

As John mentioned I'm in the same boat as far as setup (Phelps calibrated HD2K + VP50). You've mentioned the major improvements, although there is also reliable speculation on other improvements that JVC hasn't confirmed such as:

4) Improved SDE due to larger pixel fill ratio and better LC uniformity between pixels.
5) Faster panel response - should be slightly more revealing of detail.
6) 3X improvement in ANSI CR should provide additional punch to the image.
7) Reduced black levels (I realize that this is implied in your 2nd bullet, but it's worth stating separately).

I've been very happy with the image thrown by my HD2K, but where it starts to fall apart is in the low APL scenes. I'm hopeful that the RS1 will yield an image similar to the HD2K, but with a black level of < 1/4th of the HD2K it should really excel in low APL scenes too. The U571 demo at the EX Expo contained a lot of these dark scenes and the RS1 was more convincing in these types of scenes than the HD2K. But not by a huge amount, so only you'll be answer your original question of whether you will be impressed or not. In relation to the other 1080p projectors out there an HD2K still throws a good image.

"all the eye-witness reports we had from the CEDIA and EXPO that said the RS1 was the best pic of the shows, and in the EXPO case several people who saw the RS1 right next to the Sharp 20K dlp said that the RS1's PQ equaled or exceeded that of the Sharp in ALL aspects (sharpness, punch, etc.)"

Just to temper our high expectations, there's also Art Sonneborn's impression; he said the RS1 looked flat.

But his basis of comparison is stacked G90's. I get some satisfying 3D from a Pan 900, so I'm not worried about that aspect.

Just to temper our high expectations, there's also Art Sonneborn's impression; he said the RS1 looked flat.


Trust me, Art's words were ringing in my head when I walked out of the showroom after seeing the Ruby (I know the RS1 isn't the Ruby, but I am comparing them on the basis of both being LCoS units).

I certainly respect Art's knowledge and opionions, but as Noah said, he is coming from quite a different perspective than most of us are.

Since we are running out of new info on the JVC, I am going to post this here, since I am on the preorder for the JVC but have a DLP currently, and have not actually been able to see the JVC in person.

I saw a fully calibrated Sony Ruby today at a local dealer (The Digital Ear in Tustin).

First impression, which was consistent with the SXRD RPTV's I have seen, was that it was NOT "soft". It appeared to be sharp to me. Colors were excellent, very pleasing.

However, I was a little disappointed in something about the image. The only word I can think of to describe it, and I have seen it used before regarding LCoS displays, is "flat". There was a lack of depth to the image. It didn't have the "3D" effect. For example, The Fifth Element scene where Leeloo jumps off the ledge didn't seem to have the feeling of depth or 3 dimensionality that I see with DLP. I almost want to say the image lacked pop, but that isn't entirely accurate because the colors were great. Can an image still lack pop and have great colors? (I am thinking out loud here)

HD from Discovery looked good overall, but still lacking in depth or "pop".

For a PJ that is supposed to have great contrast, I had the distinct impression that what this projector was lacking was.........contrast!

Is what I saw here due to lower ANSI contrast vs DLP? Does the Pearl have higher ANSI contrast than the Ruby?? What about the JVC? How does it compare with regard to image depth vs the Ruby?

BTW, the Ruby was shooting onto a small 100" microperf screen (Stewart). Anyone who says that microperfs disappear are kidding themselves. There was a noticeable grain to the image that wasn't too pleasing.
Hey Tom,

I just set up a Ruby/BDP-S1 combo today in the BestBuy/Magnolia in Murrieta. I'm the stores SFT. I totally agree with you about the Ruby's relatively weak CR. I switched off the DI cuz I wanted max light output (without clipping, of course :rolleyes: ) but even with the DI on, its CR is still too low for these eyes. But everything else about it is truly excellent for the price. I think its easily the best PJ under $10k (pre-RS1).
If you're ever out in my neck o' the woods, you should pop in and have a look. PM me or just ask for Chris if you want to shoot a little shiz while you're there! :D

The RS1 and Pearl are on my short list, seen the Pearl several times now and very impressed with the unit. The deal breaker for me might be the db noise on the fan, JVC runs around 27 and the Sony is around 22, projector will be mounted right behind us, and we have low ceilings. Room is in the basement with no windows.

Hey Tom,

I just set up a Ruby/BDP-S1 combo today in the BestBuy/Magnolia in Murrieta. I'm the stores SFT. I totally agree with you about the Ruby's relatively weak CR. I switched off the DI cuz I wanted max light output (without clipping, of course :rolleyes: ) but even with the DI on, its CR is still too low for these eyes. But everything else about it is truly excellent for the price. I think its easily the best PJ under $10k (pre-RS1).
If you're ever out in my neck o' the woods, you should pop in and have a look. PM me or just ask for Chris if you want to shoot a little shiz while you're there! :D

Hey Chris, it's Rob (not Tom) ;)

I actually may very well take you up on this offer! Murrieta is pretty much a straight shot for me down the 215, probably less than 30 minute drive. The dealer I was at today didn't even had a HD-DVD or Blu-ray player hooked up to the Ruby, so that would be nice to see. On a side note, why don't you guys hook up Pearls? Seems that the Magnolias around here are using Rubys instead.

Rob - let me put your mind at ease. The Ruby is capable of a VERY 3D image and is anything but flat. Perhaps the calibrated Ruby you saw was not calibrated or set correctly.

On my Ruby I was getting 20,200:1 on/off CR with incredible depth. There was one scene in a movie where someone was standing on the edge of a building looking down, and the camera panned over the edge and looked down to the ground from this person's perspective - and I kid you not - I got that sinking feeling in my stomach and actually reached out to the sides with my hands as if to brace myself. I had many great experiences with the Ruby, but none as memorable as that.

So do not fear, if the RS1 is similar to the Ruby in depth (and I believe the RS1 will actually be superior in this regard due to about 50% more ANSI CR if the rumor of 300:1+ holds true), then you will be very pleased with the depth I'm sure.

"all the eye-witness reports we had from the CEDIA and EXPO that said the RS1 was the best pic of the shows, and in the EXPO case several people who saw the RS1 right next to the Sharp 20K dlp said that the RS1's PQ equaled or exceeded that of the Sharp in ALL aspects (sharpness, punch, etc.)"

Just to temper our high expectations, there's also Art Sonneborn's impression; he said the RS1 looked flat.

But his basis of comparison is stacked G90's. I get some satisfying 3D from a Pan 900, so I'm not worried about that aspect.

I wish that people could accurately define what factors create image depth. Some say it's Ansi, some say on/off Cr, some say overall brightness... saturated colors... lack of artifacts.. more sharpness, a combination of the above, etc, etc.

As far as the RS1 vs DLP goes, I watched the side by side with the Sharp and I thought that the RS1 equaled or bettered it in every respect. The thing I liked most about the RS1 was that the fine bright details in low APL scenes were noticeably brighter and more realistic looking. For me this creates the impression of depth and "pop" but again without a proper definitiion, I have no idea if this is what others are seeing when they use this term.

I also viewed a Pearl and a Marantz 11S1 and didn't find either of them to be flat although I did think the Marantz threw a different image than the Pearl/HD2K/RS1 (which all of have a similar look to them). The Marantz was noticeably more edgy than all of the projectors including the Sharp. So much so that I wouldn't want to sit too close to the screen. The Marantz had excellent shadow detail and performed well in both low and high APL scenes. If this is what most people think of as image depth then I think the RS1 equals the Marantz in this respect although the image is different and quite a bit smoother.

This issue of "punch/pop" has always been intriguing to me. I worked in the still imaging industry for many years, and we termed this phenomenon "snap". A lot of very good imaging scientists tried to define what gives an image "snap" but without a great deal of success. It is probably a combination of attributes and almost certainly is not something simple like "contrast". Because a definition was not forthcoming, I also believe that snap is pretty subjective and has little to do with accuracy and a lot to do with preference. Accuracy is frequently discussed on these forums as though it's the holy grail. However, there's decades-old scientific data that clearly shows the average observer does not prefer accurate color reproduction, as an example. (Yes, just as in Lake Wobegon, I know all posters here are above average. :) ) So rather than doing any hand-wringing over the "flatness" of an RS-1 image, perhaps we should think of it as greater accuracy, especially with so few people having seen it. Preference will vary from person to person, and any individual opinion has to viewed in that light (all puns intended).

Mark, have you seen the Sharp, set up by someone other than JVC?

I am wondering, if you saw the Sharp, in similar circumstances as you saw the Marantz, if you would have found it equal, or better than the Marantz.

Mark, have you seen the Sharp, set up by someone other than JVC?
What are you suggesting? No, it wouldn't...it couldn't be.

:D

What are you suggesting? No, it wouldn't...it couldn't be.

:D

Hey, I wasn't born yesterday. :D

Image depth, snap, pop whatever you want to call it I've always found this to be an interesting and elusive thing to quantify. IMO the reason for this is it is a combination of factors in varying quantities that can create this. Sufficient resolution (# of pixels), color accuracy, contrast and lumens are the factors that come to mind. If any of these things drop too low that "pop" is gone. An insufficiently bright projector won't have pop. A light cannon without sufficient contrast won't have it. If colors are off the whole thing goes awry. Lousy source material negates everything.

In the end I guess this is why HT and projectors in particular are such an intriguing hobby for me. Each vendor tries to get this pop and does so with their own technical method of creating it. This was a moot conversation 4 years ago. Projector technology has made some great advances and it sure is nice that we have so many affordable projectors that can produce these snappy images.

Yeah.

How about a more topical frenzy about the rumour of a December release?
Guy, dealer, says when I questioned further, that HE will have one before Christmas and that regular production will not be until after Christmas. He tried to get me to order and made it seem like he would have them in before Christmas.But now says just ONE. If you read the press releases, the projector will be released in Japan in Jan. I do not know what the method of delivery is to the U.S but assuming it is via ship, one could get a RS1 a month ahead by having it flown in straight from Japan. That is what this particular guy is talking about. I do know if he is telling the truth. Just repeating what I am being told. Does not matter to me, Jason beat the hell out of his price :). Second dealer backed off statement. More speculation, dealers are getting early production samples? Guess I am not good at creating a topical frenzy.

I wish that people could accurately define what factors create image depth. Some say it's Ansi, some say on/off Cr, some say overall brightness... saturated colors... lack of artifacts.. more sharpness, a combination of the above, etc, etc.

Me too. What I can say is this: based on the Ruby that I saw, I have to assume that on/off contrast isn't an issue given the specs (it was in auto iris). It was shooting onto a small (too small for my taste) 100" diagonal screen, at what seemed to be a relatively short throw, so I don't think brightness was a factor. Colors were good and saturated, no issue there. There were fewer artifacts compared to other pjs. And I did think the Ruby was plenty "sharp" despite claims from many that it is "soft" It is possible that if I compared it to a 1080p dlp side by side, I may have felt differently, who knows.

So out of the factors you list above, only ANSI contrast is left to explain the lack of depth/snap that I saw. Given it's specs, this would seem to make sense.

As far as the RS1 vs DLP goes, I watched the side by side with the Sharp and I thought that the RS1 equaled or bettered it in every respect. The thing I liked most about the RS1 was that the fine bright details in low APL scenes were noticeably brighter and more realistic looking. For me this creates the impression of depth and "pop" but again without a proper definitiion, I have no idea if this is what others are seeing when they use this term.

In hindsight, I really wish that I had changed the plans that I had made that prevented me from going to the EH Expo so I could have seen the RS1 and Sharp 20k side by side myself.

With regard to image depth, I am talking about medium APL scenes (such as Leeloo jumping off the ledge), not dark scenes (where on/off contrast is a big factor). I am trying to describe a feeling of three dimensionality. The Ruby I saw was lacking in this area.

I also viewed a Pearl and a Marantz 11S1 and didn't find either of them to be flat although I did think the Marantz threw a different image than the Pearl/HD2K/RS1 (which all of have a similar look to them). The Marantz was noticeably more edgy than all of the projectors including the Sharp. So much so that I wouldn't want to sit too close to the screen. The Marantz had excellent shadow detail and performed well in both low and high APL scenes. If this is what most people think of as image depth then I think the RS1 equals the Marantz in this respect although the image is different and quite a bit smoother.

I agree that LCoS and DLP's have different looks to them. That was certainly the case with the Ruby I saw. The smoothness does not bother me (and I don't equal smoothness with softness), the lack of depth did.

As I indicated elsewhere, I recently spent nearly 7 hours with a Qualia 004 which was shooting onto a Firehawk. I didn't notice the same lack of depth with the 004 as the Ruby I saw.

Anyway, I don't want people to get the idea that I am giving up on the RS1. I haven't even seen it yet! I am simply voicing some concerns that I have given what I saw with the Ruby based solely on the fact that they are similar technology. The RS1 may look a lot better compared to what I saw.

I am going to make an effort to see another Ruby soon.

I wish that people could accurately define what factors create image depth. Some say it's Ansi, some say on/off Cr, some say overall brightness... saturated colors... lack of artifacts.. more sharpness, a combination of the above, etc, etc.
I think another factor is the viewing distance. As you sit farther away, your stereoscopic vision becomes less accurate at judging distances, so you become less aware that you are looking at a flat screen that has no actual depth, so the illusion of depth in the image improves.

In my experience, while sitting about 50 feet away from the screen in large commercial theaters, I have seen scenes of foggy weather that have very little contrast, detail, color, and brightness, but they still appear to have depth, probably because of the large viewing distance.

Mark, have you seen the Sharp, set up by someone other than JVC?

I am wondering, if you saw the Sharp, in similar circumstances as you saw the Marantz, if you would have found it equal, or better than the Marantz.


me too, I have had a sharp z20000 for a few days against my Marantz. I think they are pretty much equal performance wise. I suspected the one shown by JVC was not at it's best?

It is possible that if I compared it to a 1080p dlp side by side, I may have felt differently, who knows.


Rob

I think you answer your own answer, I owned the qualia 004, Ruby and now the Pearl. the ruby and Pearl has much better 3d/depth compare to the 004. With a movie like U571, the 004 look flat compre to the pearl/ruby. I think DLP's sharpness and superior ansi CR dominate the sxrd when showing side by side base on my experience.

Mark/Jason All: Currently looking at the JVC R1 and the Pearl and a few others. I want to upgrade to a 1080p projector and so far what I have seen has been very good. Currenlty using a HS51, which I like, not deep blacks but very decent picture. I have seen the new Mits HC, and the Pearl and a few others. My room is 13 feet wide and about 22 feet long no windws(basemet) with low ceilings, so fan noise could be an issue. Would love to hear some recommendations, so far the Pearl has my eye.....

What we have experienced here is that especially the Gamma curve has one of the biggest influence in regards to image depth. Imagine a flat gamma in a dark light controlled room, that means that IRE´s from 30 to 70 are way too high - this results in a flat image independent from e.g. CR or high Lumen output.

What I forgot to say is that I also own a Pearl. The measured Gamma was out of the box at approx. 2,1 (Gamma Off). Image depth was really poor and flat.
In my totally dark light controlled room I have now adjusted the Gamma to 2,5 (with Image director), the result is a really deep image with amazing 3D.

My Desktop...

I'm in on the pre-buy, but this will just have to do until February.

http://tender-learning-care.com/Desktop.jpg

- hope to see this puppy in real life at CES!

Anyone know if the RS1 will provide software or other controls to customize the gamma (besides using say just a few preset gammas in the menu)?

The JVC looks promising but the fan noise could be an issue for my room..... Any comments on my post above are welcome, since I am in the market for a new Projector this one has caught my eye as well.

Mark, have you seen the Sharp, set up by someone other than JVC?

I am wondering, if you saw the Sharp, in similar circumstances as you saw the Marantz, if you would have found it equal, or better than the Marantz.


me too, I have had a sharp z20000 for a few days against my Marantz. I think they are pretty much equal performance wise. I suspected the one shown by JVC was not at it's best?


I haven't seen the Sharp in any other environment than in the JVC demo. I didn't think it looked bad, but it didn't have the pop and sharpness that I remembered the Marantz as having. The rainbows on the Sharp were also really distracting and much less so on the Marantz. The source on the Marantz was an A1 playing HD-DVD Serenity which I'm very familiar with and I thought it looked great - stunning actually. By contrast, I've never been a fan of the PQ of U-571 which was used in the RS1/Sharp demo so some of it might be due to the source material. In fact I thought the RS1 could have looked better with a different HD-DVD like Chronicles, Serenity, Training Day, etc.

Side by side demos are always controversial. I liked what JVC did with the Cedia Ruby/RS1 demo though which was to let people play with he remote and examine the setup and try to improve the picture. Unfortunately, I didn't see anyone at the Expo demo with experience with the Sharp who could either comment on it being representative of the image a Sharp throws or able to verify the setup. But I figure that if JVC did it right with the Ruby comparison they would have done the same with the Sharp comparison.

First impression, which was consistent with the SXRD RPTV's I have seen, was that [the Ruby] was NOT "soft". It appeared to be sharp to me.A dealer told me that the few "soft" Pearls he has seen also have had issues with misconvergence. Also, a chap in the UK who recently received a replacement Pearl commented on how sharp it was versus his first. So there does appear to be a sharpness inconsistency issue with the Pearl. When correct, the Pearl (and presumable the Ruby) is very sharp indeed. I imagine that ProjectorCentral got a bad one.

As an aside for those following the banal side of this thread, my HR room is actually yellow with a white ceiling. :eek: This will change and, naturally, I will be implementing velvet gowns, face paint, etc. :D

What we have experienced here is that especially the Gamma curve has one of the biggest influence in regards to image depth. Imagine a flat gamma in a dark light controlled room, that means that IRE´s from 30 to 70 are way too high - this results in a flat image independent from e.g. CR or high Lumen output.

Yes, I totally agree. I think setup plays a big role in image quality and depth of image. This may explain the deviation in OOB demos.

Also fwiw, my HD2K only has ~100:1 ANSI and yet it looks very 3d like in mid to high APL scenes.


Anyone know if the RS1 will provide software or other controls to customize the gamma (besides using say just a few preset gammas in the menu)?


Good question. Both the HD2K and HD10K projectors support JVC's free gamma wizard software which allows a person to customize gamma to their own preference. I didn't think to ask JVC if the gamma wizard would work with the RS1, but the fact that it supports 4 separate gammas similar to the way the HD2K and HD10K do tells me that it's a pretty safe bet.

I haven't seen the Sharp in any other environment than in the JVC demo. I didn't think it looked bad, but it didn't have the pop and sharpness that I remembered the Marantz as having. The rainbows on the Sharp were also really distracting and much less so on the Marantz. The source on the Marantz was an A1 playing HD-DVD Serenity which I'm very familiar with and I thought it looked great - stunning actually. By contrast, I've never been a fan of the PQ of U-571 which was used in the RS1/Sharp demo so some of it might be due to the source material. In fact I thought the RS1 could have looked better with a different HD-DVD like Chronicles, Serenity, Training Day, etc.

Side by side demos are always controversial. I liked what JVC did with the Cedia Ruby/RS1 demo though which was to let people play with he remote and examine the setup and try to improve the picture. Unfortunately, I didn't see anyone at the Expo demo with experience with the Sharp who could either comment on it being representative of the image a Sharp throws or able to verify the setup. But I figure that if JVC did it right with the Ruby comparison they would have done the same with the Sharp comparison.

I suspect that it was not set up properly, because one thing the Sharp certainly has, is "Pop, and Sharpness".

I do agree with you about the Rainbow's though, but they too could have been exaserbated by improper set up. I have only seen one (single chip) DLP that didn' have obvious rainbows, and that is the new Mitsubishi RPTV's. I wonder if the new Mits projectors would be similar, or if it is a whole different animal.

Is there anywhere where we're compiling a list of outstanding questions that we have about the RS1? If not perhaps we should start a thread for this purpose and for tracking things we are waiting on confirmation on. The list could be compiled over a few weeks and then maybe someone from JVC will provide answers or we can get them at CES in Jan.

I suspect that it was not set up properly, because one thing the Sharp certainly has, is "Pop, and Sharpness".

I do agree with you about the Rainbow's though, but they too could have been exaserbated by improper set up. I have only seen one (single chip) DLP that didn' have obvious rainbows, and that is the new Mitsubishi RPTV's. I wonder if the new Mits projectors would be similar, or if it is a whole different animal.

Please note that my comments about pop and sharpness were relative to the Marantz which was exceptional in this respect. In fact, I found it too sharp and digital looking for my tastes unless I watched it from > 1.3x screen widths or thereabouts. Overall the Sharp looked good and it did have pop and sharpness just not what I had remembered the Marantz as delivering.

Mark Petersen: Cool setup, just looked at your audio/video setup. I am currently using Dynaudio Confidence C2 with matching center channel and a Lexicon system. Was wondering what your thoughts are on the Sony Pearl and or a JVC RS1, looking at updating my FP, currently using a HS51 and wanted to move to 1080p projector, looking at the Sony/JVC and a few others. Any comments are welcome, also looking for a projector with low fan noise, since it will just be behind us.

Thanks,

Gar

Is there anywhere where we're compiling a list of outstanding questions that we have about the RS1? If not perhaps we should start a thread for this purpose and for tracking things we are waiting on confirmation on. The list could be compiled over a few weeks and then maybe someone from JVC will provide answers or we can get them at CES in Jan.

What questions are left? The RS1 is possibly the most discussed, viewed, analyzed and documented projector as any unreleased projector in AVS history lol.

But if there are questions remaining, I'd be happy to collect them for CES and talk to the folks at JVC again similar to what we did at the Expo. Since the projector at CES should be a production unit, it would be interesting to take along a light meter and verify lumens for both bulb settings as well as on/off. Assuming that the folks at JVC are okay with this.

Since the projector at CES should be a production unit, it would be interesting to take along a light meter and verify lumens for both bulb settings as well as on/off. Assuming that the folks at JVC are okay with this.

If you end up doing this, can you add an ANSI measurement as well? Thanks.

Mark Petersen: Cool setup, just looked at your audio/video setup. I am currently using Dynaudio Confidence C2 with matching center channel and a Lexicon system. Was wondering what your thoughts are on the Sony Pearl and or a JVC RS1, looking at updating my FP, currently using a HS51 and wanted to move to 1080p projector, looking at the Sony/JVC and a few others. Any comments are welcome, also looking for a projector with low fan noise, since it will just be behind us.

Thanks,

Gar

The RS1 isn't out yet so any comments are speculation based on prototype demos but so far this looks like an amazing machine. A person can't go wrong with the Pearl either, I really liked the image the Pearl throws but I'm hopeful that the higher ANSI and much higher instantaneous native CR on the RS1 will yield a better image.

If you end up doing this, can you add an ANSI measurement as well? Thanks.

Only for you Lindahl ;)

Mark: Thanks for the info, much appeciated. Right now without seeing the RS1 it would be a toss up. Pricing would be a factor along with fan noise on the RS1, sounds like a great machine and I am sure the CES will shed some light on all the new 1080p FPs, and hopefully this will yield better pricing as well.

I think another factor is the viewing distance. As you sit farther away, your stereoscopic vision becomes less accurate at judging distances, so you become less aware that you are looking at a flat screen that has no actual depth, so the illusion of depth in the image improves.

In my experience, while sitting about 50 feet away from the screen in large commercial theaters, I have seen scenes of foggy weather that have very little contrast, detail, color, and brightness, but they still appear to have depth, probably because of the large viewing distance.

This could differ from person to person. My preferance is to sit closer so that the image fills my peripheral vision. When I see an image from farther back it seems less dimensional to me because I'm aware of the frame and that it's a projected image.

So out of the factors you list above, only ANSI contrast is left to explain the lack of depth/snap that I saw. Given it's specs, this would seem to make sense.


I wonder if bulb aging has a lot to do with the variance in store demos. My HD2K only has around 100:1 ANSI, but it looks 3 dimensional in mid to high APL scenes particularly with HD material. But as the bulb ages the pop seems to go with it...

What questions are left?

Last I had heard from JVC, they were still waiting on confirmation from their engineering group that indeed the light output does not vary according to the zoom position. They thought so because of other JVC pjs worked that way, but they were trying to verify this. This is an important consideration of course for screen size selection.

Also as we recently discussed here we do not know if their software for gamma customization works with the RS1.

Also they are anticipating that ANSI CR will be in the 300-ish range, but that sounded like a pretty rough estimate. Its still an open question as to what we can expect in this regard.

There are likely other open questions as well and others will surely come up. I think it would be helpful to have a running thread for the sole purpose of collecting open questions and leave discussions for other threads such as this.

Many around here are debating purchasing a Pearl now or waiting for the RS1. Whose considering the Z20000? Reading Greg Rogers' review on WSR site is significant (especially when reading the Pg. 7 section comparing the Sony and the Z20000 when viewing Grand Prix.

Only for you Lindahl ;)

Taking on/off and ANSI CR readings at a show would be very tough unless it is shown in a dedicated room and you have complete light control including no reflections. Also a tripod is a must for accurate readings. If you do proceed with this please take the ANSI at the pj lens not the screen so we know what the pj is capable of independent of the room and any reflections.

RobZ: I still am debating, a few things come to play when I but besides PQ... Of course I want the best PQ money can buy, but there are a few other factors, like fan noise, mounting bracket etc.. If I go with the Pearl I don't have to worry about these, I think the JVC could be a tad too loud, I will have a look at the Z2000, ah count me out DLP.. I am one of those people that gets headaches from these. ;)

Last I had heard from JVC, they were still waiting on confirmation from their engineering group that indeed the light output does not vary according to the zoom position. They thought so because of other JVC pjs worked that way, but they were trying to verify this. This is an important consideration of course for screen size selection.



Oh, man I would like to get confirmation on this asap. This was a huge selling point for me!

RobZ: I still am debating, a few things come to play when I but besides PQ... Of course I want the best PQ money can buy, but there are a few other factors, like fan noise, mounting bracket etc.. If I go with the Pearl I don't have to worry about these, I think the JVC could be a tad too loud, I will have a look at the Z2000, ah count me out DLP.. I am one of those people that gets headaches from these. ;)

Garman - what are you concerns about a mounting bracket and how does that tie into JVC vs. the Pearl? I've been talking with Chief and they will have a specific SLB bracket for their mount by the time the RS1 ships, if not sooner. No worries there. Regarding the fan noise - the Pearl is whisper quiet. If fan noise is your TOP priority then you have an easy decision. If it is an important consideration but not everything, then you may want to wait for the RS1 so you have more concrete feedback to go on or have a choice to see one.

Oh, man I would like to get confirmation on this asap. This was a huge selling point for me!

Another question that comes to mind along these lines is regarding the 15,000:1 spec. Typically the on/off CR increases as the zoom is zoomed out. So I wonder at what zoom range the 15,000:1 measurement came from, and whether this will vary or is remains fixed as the zoom changes...

To my untrained ears the Pearl "sounds" louder than the HD10K. It is a significantly lower frequency sound, and I can actually hear it while sitting at my PC in the lab, where the HD10K cannot be heard over the PC's fans unless my ear is very close to it.

I found that the Ruby needed to be run in high fan speed mode to get better stability, especially in uniformity. I have not determined if this is the case with the Pearl yet.

It would seem foolish to me to make a purchase decision between the Pearl and the RS1 based on noise factors without an actual comparison of the two projectors. The RS1 has significantly different cooling air flow than the HD10K. I think we are going to need to wait until production units are available to know how the two compare in terms of how much noise they actually make.

Mark,

A question for the list...

Are there going to be discrete IR codes for all major functions including but not limited to input selection and image configuration presets?

Good post WM! Goes to show that a 27db rated projector can actually be more quiet than a 22db rated projector in real world listening. Nothing can really be determined about the RS1 fan noise compared to other units until there is a production unit to go by. The RS1 could actually be more quiet than the Pearl! Who knows.......

Last I had heard from JVC, they were still waiting on confirmation from their engineering group that indeed the light output does not vary according to the zoom position. They thought so because of other JVC pjs worked that way, but they were trying to verify this. This is an important consideration of course for screen size selection.


The Fujinon lens is a pretty known quantity and Tom Stites has said that there is no "appreciable" change in light output over zoom range.


Also they are anticipating that ANSI CR will be in the 300-ish range, but that sounded like a pretty rough estimate. Its still an open question as to what we can expect in this regard.


From what I read from Tom's statements is that we can expect at least 300:1 and probably higher from this projector. JVC doesn't publish official ANSI CR numbers though so we'll never get an official number.


It would seem foolish to me to make a purchase decision between the Pearl and the RS1 based on noise factors without an actual comparison of the two projectors. The RS1 has significantly different cooling air flow than the HD10K. I think we are going to need to wait until production units are available to know how the two compare in terms of how much noise they actually make.


I completely agree and this topic has been covered several times in several threads. The two key points that people need to keep in mind are: 1) the noise level from the prototype is meaningless because it won't be the same as the production unit (hopefully it will be quieter especially in the low bulb setting). 2) the 27db spec provided by JVC means nothing compared to specs by other manufacturers because it doesn't say how it was measured. 27db at 1 foot from the RS1 is much better than a 25db rating from another projector if that reading was 1 meter from the projector. It's way to early to base any assumptions on sound levels although CES should start to provide some answers in this area.

To my untrained ears the Pearl "sounds" louder than the HD10K. It is a significantly lower frequency sound,...
It would seem foolish to me to make a purchase decision between the Pearl and the RS1 based on noise factors without an actual comparison of the two projectors. ... I think we are going to need to wait until production units are available to know how the two compare in terms of how much noise they actually make.

Amen wm!

I completely agree! The frequency distribution of the noise is much more important than having the absolute lowest A or C weighted dB value.

I am on the pre-order list and I am not going to worry about the noise level until I can evaluate it with my own ears in my own theater setting. The picture I saw at CEDIA was stunning; that is the reason I am buying this projector. I can fix a noisy projector but I can't make a visual silk purse out of a sows ear projector.

wm: I am only basing this off the specs that JVC posted, I haven't made a choice yet so as far as being foolish I will just leave that to people that assume things (I guess I am assuming JVC spec sheet is correct. ;) For my type of application 29-27 might be a tad loud where my projector will be located. These just are some questions I have and will there be a significant difference, in PQ and price point. I guess only time will tell, and lets hope the CES sheds the light on these questions.
I haven't had the pleasure of seeing or hearing this unit yet, hence the questions, I sure don't need to be flamed for it ;)

wm: I am only basing this off the specs that JVC posted, I haven't made a choice yet so as far as being foolish I will just leave that to people that assume things (I guess I am assuming JVC spec sheet is correct. ;) For my type of application 29-27 might be a tad loud where my projector will be located. These just are some questions I have and will there be a significant difference, in PQ and price point. I guess only time will tell, and lets hope the CES sheds the light on these questions.
I haven't had the pleasure of seeing or hearing this unit yet, hence the questions, I sure don't need to be flamed for it ;)

Who was flaming you? :confused: I must have missed it.

Tom Bley: I was joking hence the ;) More like a slap on the wrist, I was asking a valid question for my situation, but some precived it foolish and they didn't read my first couple of posts. The Pearl on this unit are at the top of my list.

wm just tells it like it is. He didn't flame you. (IMHO)

Wow, Greg Rogers review of the Sharp 20K is quite impressive. I hope Mark Petersen's observation that the RS1 equals or exceeds the Sharp in all PQ parameters holds up to be even approximately valid. If so, those of us in on the AVS preorder will be getting an outstanding pj, and outstanding value in HT.

The Fujinon lens is a pretty known quantity and Tom Stites has said that there is no "appreciable" change in light output over zoom range.



From what I read from Tom's statements is that we can expect at least 300:1 and probably higher from this projector. JVC doesn't publish official ANSI CR numbers though so we'll never get an official number.



I completely agree and this topic has been covered several times in several threads. The two key points that people need to keep in mind are: 1) the noise level from the prototype is meaningless because it won't be the same as the production unit (hopefully it will be quieter especially in the low bulb setting). 2) the 27db spec provided by JVC means nothing compared to specs by other manufacturers because it doesn't say how it was measured. 27db at 1 foot from the RS1 is much better than a 25db rating from another projector if that reading was 1 meter from the projector. It's way to early to base any assumptions on sound levels although CES should start to provide some answers in this area.

Mark: The information in those other threads suggests that the JVC rating was done from the standard 1 meter difference, not from 1 foot. We will have to wait and see what the production model turns out to be like, but from all indications so far it will be louder than the Pearl. This is a pity since the PQ appears to be excellent, and if they could get a better fan cooling system it looks like it would be the obvious choice in its class.

John Ballentine: I asked several questions, and noise would be a concern if he had my room, especially where my projector is mounted. I guess I didn't give him the whole story... and as I stated in my last post I was joking about the flaming. I do agree with him on waiting for a production unit to see and hear before I make any judgements.

"We will have to wait and see what the production model turns out to be like, but from all indications so far it will be louder than the Pearl. This is a pity since the PQ appears to be excellent, and if they could get a better fan cooling system it looks like it would be the obvious choice in its class."

Even with a production unit the dB measurement doesn't tell the whole story as we don't know what the distribution/frequency of the noise is.

That will effect how annoying or not the noise is. Just as an over the top example.... one projector rated at 27dB and another at 25dB. Just by looking at the numbers the 27dB is 'louder.' But what if the unit at 27dB noise was at 5hz... that frequency at that level would be totally inaudible to the ear, but not the instrument. While OTOH the unit at 25dB was at 1kHz... right around where the ear is most sensitive.

In the above case the meter would say one unit is louder, the ear would say the other unit is louder.

Shawn

Wow, Greg Rogers review of the Sharp 20K is quite impressive. I hope Mark Petersen's observation that the RS1 equals or exceeds the Sharp in all PQ parameters holds up to be even approximately valid. If so, those of us in on the AVS preorder will be getting an outstanding pj, and outstanding value in HT.


I agree Bill! I just hope the JVC has the appearance of depth/three dimensionality that is even close to what Greg described in his review. I doubt it will be quite as good because the ANSI contrast will certainly be lower than the incredible 845:1 measurement that Greg got on the JVC, but as he said, there are other factors that contribute to the perception of depth as well.

The JVC just can't get here fast enough for me! ;)

The Ruby is the quietest projector in this class I have ever heard. Or should I say, ever not heard :) Its that quiet. I sit right under it and can not hear it. I haven't heard the Pearl but assuming its just like the Ruby, I think its wishful thinking that the RS1 would be just as quiet. That being said, it does sound like there's hope that it will at least be quite acceptable to most.

I agree Bill! I just hope the JVC has the appearance of depth/three dimensionality that is even close to what Greg described in his review. I doubt it will be quite as good because the ANSI contrast will certainly be lower than the incredible 845:1 measurement that Greg got on the JVC, but as he said, there are other factors that contribute to the perception of depth as well.

The JVC just can't get here fast enough for me! ;)

845:1 is just incredible. The RS1 will not likely even be half that, and its likely a safe bet that the Sharp 20K will have the advantage in the image depth department. Remember each machine has its advantages and drawbacks. Speculatively speaking, personally I'll take the RS1's lower price, extra brightness, and higher on/off CR in exchange for the lower ANSI CR, but that's not to say the 20K is not a better pick for others with different priorities.

I just read Gregs review on the Sharp. Wow, 845:1 ANSI CR - the highest he has ever measured. It wasn't that many years ago that digital on/off CR was less than that :eek:

So now I'm wondering why the Sharp didn't bowl me over like the Marantz did, they both should have been very similar. Here is one possible reason:

Six gamma settings, 4 DNR mode settings, 4 MNR mode settings, 4 unveil mode settings, 4 automatic contrast settings, 6 picture modes, 3 iris modes, 2 bulb modes,

The only settings I checked when I watched the Sharp was the iris and bulb settings. I also hope that people take any tradeshow demo with a grain of salt. A proper evaluation takes time and a person has to go through all the settings in their own environment and also factor in bulb wear, etc. I put more emphasis on a good review by Greg Rogers than all of the Cedia and Expo comments combined :)

The Fujinon lens is a pretty known quantity and Tom Stites has said that there is no "appreciable" change in light output over zoom range.

About a week ago Ken at JVC said that he was under the impression that was the case, but that he did want to get definitive confirmation from his engineering group that this was indeed the case. He said he hoped to get that shortly - not sure if he has yet or not. At any rate it sounded like they felt this was the case but were not 100% sure.


From what I read from Tom's statements is that we can expect at least 300:1 and probably higher from this projector. JVC doesn't publish official ANSI CR numbers though so we'll never get an official number.


That's fine. However because they don't publish it as an official spec doesn't mean that they cannot give us details on what they are measuring on the early production runs they are doing. It would be good to know once they have a few units on hand to check.

I agree Bill! I just hope the JVC has the appearance of depth/three dimensionality that is even close to what Greg described in his review. I doubt it will be quite as good because the ANSI contrast will certainly be lower than the incredible 845:1 measurement that Greg got on the JVC, but as he said, there are other factors that contribute to the perception of depth as well.

The JVC just can't get here fast enough for me! ;)

Yes, Rob. Just hope that by some chance GregR gets his hands on a RS1 to evaluate before we have to commit on the RS1 preorder.

I highly doubt you will see a review from Gregr before the units ship. Might get lucky with Jason doing a review.

The Ruby is the quietest projector in this class I have ever heard. Or should I say, ever not heard :) Its that quiet. I sit right under it and can not hear it. I haven't heard the Pearl but assuming its just like the Ruby, I think its wishful thinking that the RS1 would be just as quiet. That being said, it does sound like there's hope that it will at least be quite acceptable to most.

Based on the Ruby that I saw.....I absolutely agree! I couldn't believe how quiet it was! This is an area where I need improvement over my current pj, which isn't nearly as quiet....but not as loud as some either.

A question for Tom Stites or anyone else from JVC who is reading this thread.

Would it be possible to implement manual editing of the PJ's EDID table? My reason for requesting this is that there a number of devices (particularly satellite STBs) whose chipsets can be tricked into outputting interlaced SD over HDMI if the corresponding progressive format is not in the EDID table.

For instance, SkyHD boxes in the UK will only output 576p (with poor deinterlacing), but if the next item in the HDMI chain has 576i but not 576p, then 576i will be output and deinterlacing can be performed outside of the STB.

This would be a terrific feature if implementable!

Thanks.

Reviews from Jason should be compared with other reviews from Jason. Look at the difference in contrast between Jason and gregr on z21000.
My point is that Jason has measured lower numbers than gregr so if he measured less than 10000:1 gregr might measure >10000:1. I know Jason is saying what he measures should give you a rough idea and are not from a lab.

Where is the pre order list and can we mention price here?

The pre order has finished, and I don't think we're allowed to mention the price on the open forum. It was an amazing deal tho!

Gary

I've read most but not every single page of this thread. We just moved and I'm still settling in. Was it through JVC, a power buy or other? A pm with price would be greatly appreciated.

Rob Tomiln: Thanks for finally answering a question I had. To me in my enviroment it is critical, for most the noise issue wouldn't be an issue. Regardless it sounds like this projector will be on my top list after the new year.

I've read most but not every single page of this thread. We just moved and I'm still settling in. Was it through JVC, a power buy or other? A pm with price would be greatly appreciated.

Call Jason or Tryg at AVS.

Reviews from Jason should be compared with other reviews from Jason. Look at the difference in contrast between Jason and gregr on z21000.
My point is that Jason has measured lower numbers than gregr so if he measured less than 10000:1 gregr might measure >10000:1. I know Jason is saying what he measures should give you a rough idea and are not from a lab.

Yes, comparing reviews from different reviewers is quite meaningless. But comparing Jason's, say, between different pj's is quite useful since he is very consistent in his methodology. A review by him of the HD81, and the RS1 as soon as he gets it, would thus be extemely useful to go along with his reviews of the Sharp 20K, BenQ W10000, Pearl, etc.

My misfortune being away from the computer for a couple of weeks while relocating. I did receive a PM. Thanks.

[QUOTE=lovingdvd]845:1 is just incredible. The RS1 will not likely even be half that, and its likely a safe bet that the Sharp 20K will have the advantage in the image depth department. QUOTE]


Even with half I believe the RS1 will have the advantage in the image depth department judging from it's much higher on/off. Reason I say this is because recently I viewed the Sharp 20K in a side-by-side comparison with the Meridian MF-1 which I believe is a JVC 10K and nowhere the CR of the RS1 or even brightness and even still produced a better depth to the image on a 110" diagonal screen than the Sharp 20K.

The sharp was brighter & it did look beautiful no question about it and I am a huge DLP supporter but after seeing both in action side-by-side I thought the Sharp looked too digital in comparison. Brighter it was but not by much either. Funny how I really liked the image from an LcOS based machine like this Meridian but just can't for the life of me like any of the other LcOS/SXRD PJ's that I've seen like the Ruby, Pearl or the Qualia. I wonder what makes them so different to my eyes at least.

Chris Dallas
The answer might be wm optimization. Perfect brightness uniformity is said to be very engaging. We get no clues that the picture is actually a projection.

JVC RS1 : I would love a PM on a special buy for the RS1, if the price is right I might hold off and not buy the Pearl.. The question is, I never like buying anything unless I see it or hear it.. Not sure if anyone can still get on the RS1 buy list, but I for one would be interested.

Chris Dallas: I feel the same way about DLP, just does not cut it for me. For one, I still get headaches from even some of the newer DLPs.

Garman, the pre-buy list closed a week ago. Try calling Jason or Tryg for current pricing. It's the only way you'll know.

VirusKiller: Like the name, but I am in the medical/biologic business ;) Thanks for the heads up, sent Jason a e-mail... From the list of projectors he has reviewed one couldn't go wrong buying the Pearl/Mits/ or JVC and a few others... nice to see some 1080p Projectors at decent prices.

Garman, come February or March after the RS1 arrives I'll be selling either a calibrated Pearl with 500 hours or so on the bulb or a lightly used RS1 for a good price, depending on which one didn't quite win the shootout. I have a feeling that shootout may be very close.

Dan

drapp1952: Well the prices on the Pearl have come way down, $3800-$3900 is stree price. Not bad considering that it is suppose to retail at $5K.. My problem is I don't know if I can wait that long ;) LOL

This may have come up previously, but I couldn't remember it or find it in what has become a rather long thread.

In any event, I was wondering how those in the pre-buy line-up were planning to feed the DLA-RS1 its video information. Will most be sending data to the RS1 allowing it to process/deinterlace the signal for display, or will many have an outboard scaler do the work and pass 1080p to the projector? Among some of its other attributes, I was considering the Anthem D2 for its HDMI switching and video processing, however it seems a bit redundant to have two levels of Gennum processing at the ready.

Is it kooky to be considering the purchase of a Lumagen, DVDO, etc product so that one would have the option to check which level of processing (pre-proj vs in-proj) meets their desires and concurrently allows for HDMI etc switching?

My question is too all the people that have actually seen the RS1 in action, how does it compare to other 1080p FP projectors? Also what would a decent street price be for this unit? Thanks...

Garman,

I, unfortunately, have not seen an RS1; however, the first post in this thread, titled Part 1, includes a vast amount of specific info on the pj, and also has direct links to Part 2 and Part 3, which thoroughly evaluates the RS1's performance campared to several other 1080p pjs. All of this info is provided by the OP, Mark Peterson, who spent alot of time with the RS1 at the EH Expo.

There are also all of these RS1 comments from the Expo:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=751453

I also looked for the old RS1 Cedia megathread but I can't seem to find it. Anyone know where that one went?

Mark,

I think this is the CEDIA thread you were referring to... http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=744604&page=1&pp=30.

Also, one more RS1 thread for good measure...http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=750154.

There are also all of these RS1 comments from the Expo:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=751453

I also looked for the old RS1 Cedia megathread but I can't seem to find it. Anyone know where that one went?

It be here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=744604&page=1&pp=30

Thanks guys, yup that was the thread I was looking for. It hasn't been posted to in awhile so it didn't get past my search filter.

Yes, Rob. Just hope that by some chance GregR gets his hands on a RS1 to evaluate before we have to commit on the RS1 preorder.
I am 100% committed regardless of what other projectors may be released or anyone's review. Sure better projectors will come to market but at what price? Man, this projector has a lower price than some of the plasmas that I see for sale at Best Buy! Nothing will dampen my enthusiasm. I have been waiting for a projector with these specs and price for many years. I remember David Boulet, think that is the correct spelling asking for a projector like this at this price a couple of years back. It seemed like a far way dream back then. It's here now. No I do not expect perfection at 6295.00 but I damn sure think I am getting my money's worth :) .

In any event, I was wondering how those in the pre-buy line-up were planning to feed the DLA-RS1 its video information. Will most be sending data to the RS1 allowing it to process/deinterlace the signal for display, or will many have an outboard scaler do the work and pass 1080p to the projector? Among some of its other attributes, I was considering the Anthem D2 for its HDMI switching and video processing, however it seems a bit redundant to have two levels of Gennum processing at the ready.

Is it kooky to be considering the purchase of a Lumagen, DVDO, etc product so that one would have the option to check which level of processing (pre-proj vs in-proj) meets their desires and concurrently allows for HDMI etc switching?
My understanding is that the Gennum processor used in the Anthem D2, Crystalio II and DVDO VP50 is a newer generation of the Gennum chip. If that’s true, is it reasonable to expect improved video customization and performance? However like Nevr2Big I am not sure that the additional cost and complexity is worth the additional expense. :confused:

Your comments would be greatly appreciated because the Anthem D2 is also on my shortlist of future upgrades.

Thanks in advance to all comments!

DVDO VP50 doesn't use a VXP chip - they use their own chips from Anchor Bay Technologies (who own DVDO).
The chip inside CII is exactly the same as the chip in this PJ and also the Marantz 11S1.
The Lumagen Radiance is planned to have the more recent chip.
I don't know whether the Anthem uses the slightly larger, hotter version of the current VXP chip or the smaller, coller one which is in the CII.

Improvements and differences between implementations of these chips are common though - so they are not all equal, despite the same chips - all the cuircuitry around these chips effect PQ. However, bang for buck looks to be really good with the JVC. If it were me, I'd hold off buying the VP until after I'd lived with the PJ first to see if anything annoys me.

The CII, Marantz 11S1, and JVC RS1 have the exact same gennum chip?

I'm on the pre-buy list and will use my existing Lumagen HDP as a switcher, at least (to send just one digital cable to the PJ). I will be feeding it mostly 1080i, using an HD DVD player and a new mpeg4 D* HD DVR. This new DVR has native mode, always sending whatever res to my Lumagen (and it has an indicator on the front panel to tell what res it is receiving). I have noticed that almost all the channels I've been watching are 1080i (although probably "lite"). This means that with a 1080p pj, whichever video processor is used, it will almost always only be doing de-interlacing, almost never any scaling.

I am reading very good things about the JVC HD10K. At least on paper, how would the JVC RS-1 compare in overall picture quality?
Thanks for responses !

I am reading very good things about the JVC HD10K. At least on paper, how would the JVC RS-1 compare in overall picture quality?
Thanks for responses !
Now that I've past 4000 posts I can "act" like I knowed something or another. :D

Over all the HD10K is likely to be superior (at least I hope so and most people who have seen both say so). Here is a small list for each. Tom, Mark, and others more knowledgeable can add to it.

RS1: Contrast, internal scaling, maybe quieter, panel refresh and decay rate, Oh and contrast.

HD10K: Color, optics, light engine, and no internal scaler to bypass.

I asked this in another thread but will ask it here again in case someone here knows something..

So, does anyone have the latest news whether or not this RS1 will do the proper scaling for CH 2:35.1 with a VC lens? It is important to me since I do not have an external scaler plus what is the point of an external scaler if this PJ possesses one of the best scalers in the industry the Gennum? What a waste if it wouldn't do the proper stretch since it would force people into buying an external scaler only for that purpose.

Does anyone know if the internal scaler can be bypassed? If would be nice to bypass if for no other reason than to manage lip sync issues.

JVC did not bother to answer my email about it, but it would be very nice if they offer a head only version of the RS1, like the HD2K and HD10K lines.
It would give a lot more flexibility and a reduced price would make it even more atractive without compromising their profit per unit. Less components to assemble, to test, to calibrate, to fix, to replace etc... Anyways...

JVC did not bother to answer my email about it, but it would be very nice if they offer a head only version of the RS1, like the HD2K and HD10K lines.
It would give a lot more flexibility and a reduced price would make it even more atractive without compromising their profit per unit. Less components to assemble, to test, to calibrate, to fix, to replace etc... Anyways...
Actually making it a 2 piece unit would increase the cost substantially (OEMing a box compared to just chips is expensive as hell). In order to compete with Sony, JVC must offer an all in one solution (scaler too) with superior specs at a competitive price point which dictates a standard design. JVC will probably replace the HD10K next year with a new high end that will have no internal scaler like the HD2K/HD10K. However look for 'all in one" conventual design on the lower end.

I wonder if anyone with JVC pj's (HD2K, HD10K) has used a Silver Star screen with them? I've heard some comments that the SS has a 'texture' that is more visible on 1080p than lower resolution, but have no idea. I have also seen some posts of people that have liked the SS with a Pearl or Ruby. Anybody have any experience with this combo? I thinking of either the SS or HiPower with the RS1.

RS1: Contrast, internal scaling, maybe quieter, panel refresh and decay rate, Oh and contrast.

HD10K: Color, optics, light engine, and no internal scaler to bypass.

It's still too soon to tell. I'm not sure how the Fujinon lens in the RS1 will stack up to the HD10K lens, but so far it sounds great and the throw will probably work better for more installations than the 10K. The light engine in the RS1 is also superior (by far) if you factor in the panels and polarizors. From what we've heard the biggest advantage of the HD10K over the RS1 is a wider color gamut. But even the HD10K primaries don't hit the full Rec. 709 spec. The RS1 is looking good, but we won't know the full potential until the production units are out. One thing is certain though, despite the high contrast figures the RS1 is going to be discussed like any other projector on AVS forum and it will be sliced, diced, dissected and scrutinized to the nth degree and there will almost certainly be some things that people will find objectionable about it :)

I sure don't need to be flamed for it ;)

I said "it would seem foolish to me..." - if you think that's being flamed, you haven't been around here long enough... :-) I had no intention of flaming anyone!

It's still too soon to tell. I'm not sure how the Fujinon lens in the RS1 will stack up to the HD10K lens, but so far it sounds great and the throw will probably work better for more installations than the 10K. The light engine in the RS1 is also superior (by far) if you factor in the panels and polarizors. From what we've heard the biggest advantage of the HD10K over the RS1 is a wider color gamut. But even the HD10K primaries don't hit the full Rec. 709 spec. The RS1 is looking good, but we won't know the full potential until the production units are out. One thing is certain though, despite the high contrast figures the RS1 is going to be discussed like any other projector on AVS forum and it will be sliced, diced, dissected and scrutinized to the nth degree and there will almost certainly be some things that people will find objectionable about it :)

Mark, what's the benefit of wider color gamut? I mean Sony Qualia 004 has a wide color space mode as well, But I did not see any real use of it. Just wodering if we are talking about the same thing.

Actually making it a 2 piece unit would increase the cost substantially (OEMing a box compared to just chips is expensive as hell). In order to compete with Sony, JVC must offer an all in one solution (scaler too) with superior specs at a competitive price point which dictates a standard design. JVC will probably replace the HD10K next year with a new high end that will have no internal scaler like the HD2K/HD10K. However look for 'all in one" conventual design on the lower end.

Actually I was talking of having the current "all in one" plus the head only versions. No 2 piece unit. The analogy with the HD2K/HD10K was only in the sense that there is an option without inside scalers. The user that wants the head only version normally already has or is going to have an external scaler (not necessarily from JVC). I agree with you that a box is much more expensive than its components. However having 2 good scalers (one inside the PJ and one external) is a waste. There are good reasons to want an external scaler instead even if the one inside the PJ is good. The alternative "high end" is unnecessarily much more expensive. Just my 2 cents.

wm: I was joking in my last post about flaming thing. ;) hence the smiley face. The problem is you didn't see the last couple of post before about my room etc.. that's all. So you're right it would seem foolish to you, but not too me. I am strongly considering the RS1, depending on price and the Pearl and a few others. I think I might wait and see what the CES brings, I will finally make it back there this year, it has been awhile.

I asked this in another thread but will ask it here again in case someone here knows something..

So, does anyone have the latest news whether or not this RS1 will do the proper scaling for CH 2:35.1 with a VC lens? It is important to me since I do not have an external scaler plus what is the point of an external scaler if this PJ possesses one of the best scalers in the industry the Gennum? What a waste if it wouldn't do the proper stretch since it would force people into buying an external scaler only for that purpose.

My concern also, so I asked this last month. The prototype did not do the vertical squeeze for 2.35:1. The word was that JVC is going to try to get this into the production unit but only time will tell...

I wonder if anyone with JVC pj's (HD2K, HD10K) has used a Silver Star screen with them? I've heard some comments that the SS has a 'texture' that is more visible on 1080p than lower resolution, but have no idea. I have also seen some posts of people that have liked the SS with a Pearl or Ruby. Anybody have any experience with this combo? I thinking of either the SS or HiPower with the RS1.

Bill, I used a 123" Silverstar screen for a couple of years. It was with a 720p projector (DLP). I find it curious that some people think that the sheen is more noticeable with 1080p....I'm not sure I understand why that would be the case.

I was one of the people who found the sheen to be bothersome. The screen just didn't "disappear" enough for me. The best way to describe the sheen would be to compare it to the Silkscreen Effect that you see on many rear projection DLP units, such as the Samsungs. I would say the effect wasn't quite as bad on the Silverstar as some of the worst SSE offenders as it isn't quite as noticeable as that. But the look is similar.

Mark, what's the benefit of wider color gamut? I mean Sony Qualia 004 has a wide color space mode as well, But I did not see any real use of it. Just wodering if we are talking about the same thing.

Check out the interesting discussion with Greg Rogers on color management that happened in this thread a few pages back. My take on it was that hitting Rec. 709 exactly, either with CMS computed (virtual) primaries or via accurate physical primaries is the best way to ensure color accuracy. Some people prefer a wider gamut which provides more saturated (but less accurate) colors so using wide primaries along with CMS can be used to satisfy both camps.

The interesting situation happens when a projector doesn't offer CMS and it's physical primaries don't match Rec. 709. In this case three possible things can happen. 1) colors of some hues can be oversaturated if one or more primaries are too wide. 2) colors of some hues can be undersaturated if one or more primaries are too narrow. 3) If the primaries are either wider or narrower than ideal and they don't follow the right line in the CIE plane then the entire colorspace can be skewed and the colors become both inaccurate and improperly saturated.

As far as how this relates to the HD10K vs RS1 discussion goes... From what I've read from reviews the HD10K physical primaries are very close to Rec. 709 so the colors should be both accurate and properly saturated even though CMS isn't a feature offered on this projector. JVC has told us that the RS1 will also not offer CMS and it's gamut will not be as wide as the HD10K. How much narrower and in what direction in the CIE plane has yet to be determined. So there is a potential for the colorspace to be skewed and also undersaturated although I want to stress that it's too early to say if either of these are a problem on the RS1. This is just speculation on the worst possible scenario for narrow physical primaries and until someone does a full review on the RS1 it's color accuracy will be unknown.

...The chip inside CII is exactly the same as the chip in this PJ and also the Marantz 11S1...

So is it safe then to assume that the processing capabilities of the RS1 will very closely match that of the Marantz 11S1? I can't recall off the top of my head what Greg reported about the capabilities of the Marantz processing in his review and how good it was, but it seems like this may give us some good insight as to what to expect from the RS1?

I'm in the pre-buy and debating what to do for a DVD player/transport. Cost is a significant issue right now. This PJ is a bit more expensive than what I'd planned on spending. As such, I need to cut costs elsewhere. I currently have a Pioneer DV-05 DVD player and an old RCA 27" CRT TV. The DVD player is old and on the fritz. It doesn't have HDMI ouput and my TV doesn't even have component in! In fact, my multichannel integrated amp doesn't have HDMI or even analog multichannel input. As such, I need to upgrade across the board, but will have to do it in increments.

I think I'd like to upgrade my DVD player first. The new one should definitely have an HDMI output as well as traditional digital audio out. I'm thinking about getting one of the Oppo's as a holdover for about a year. They are cheap and supposed to have very good video processing (for the money), and whatever player I get will be moved to the living room when I finally get a hi def player. I'll likely get a HD-DVD/Blu-Ray players in about a year; by then they will be more affordable and they and receivers will have HDMI 1.3. That last bit is NOT a necessity, but it does fall in line with my time frame.

Having said all that, the new 981 looks very nice, but it doesn't output 480i. That's significant as I'd be forced to use the Forouja de-interlacer/scaler in the DVD player. That would be fine in most circumstances, but the VP in the JVC is obviously better. The 970 supposedly can output 480i, and is better audiowise. Then again, the 981 is better with PAS material (my wife is Indian and was born/raised in London). I don't care about the DVD Audio or SACD functionality as I don't own any disks and my integrated amp doesn't have HDMI inputs anyways.

What do you guys recommend doing?

BTW, I know this post is OT, but I figured it's OK since I'm getting the PJ and it won't be out for a couple months. I can move the post to a new thread if you guys prefer.

I am well aware that I won't be using this PJ to it's full potential, but the prebuy was such a good deal that I coudn't refuse. I'll still be be able to take advatage of it's wonderful contrast and colors with DVDs and HDTV. The problem for me is I'll need to get a new receiver at the same time that I get the hi-def player as the only multichannel inputs to my integrated are co-axial or optical digital and the combination of both will likely be about $2,000. I might be able go upgrade in 6 months, but definitely no sooner. I could have gone with a 720p PJ, but it would be obsolete in 6 months anyways and that would be a complete waste of money. I think the JVC has the potential to be something that use for at least 5 or more years.

krholmberg - interesting topic but yes this is quite OT - please start as a new thread, as this one is focused around discussions more specifically about the RS1. You may want to try the DVD forums here on AVS.

Fair enough.

More related directly to this PJ... how does the VP specifically within the JVC compare to the Faroudja?

Proper color gamut covering SRGB/SMTP-c/EBU are one of the abilities we generally take for granted as most other PJ in the same categories possess. (like Sony pearl,HD10K,...) Other abilities like bypassing internal scaler, no cropping and others are on this list as well. These false assumptions can eventually leads to disappointments if we keep speculating and salivating (I know I am) over the performance of this PJ before having an in depth review of a production model. I think there are still a lot of issues unknown to us regarding this beast that can still play a determinant role in the PQ even if general traits are really promising (great on/off, good Ansi, good optics, 3 chip 1080p, smooth pic, sweet price, ....)

Personal concerns still not addressed:

-Panel convergence. What is JVC tolerance? Will misconvergence be uniform across panel? Tom promised pixel shift in the menu, will the chip have enough pixels to support full panel pixel shift without introducing cropping?
-Will I be able to use the PJ as desktop monitor? will I be able to bypass PJ scaler and get 1080 through VGA?
-How much control over gamma and color I will have? it will be difficult to get proper D65 at sub 25IRE with only 2 controls (gain and bias) a LUT is necessarily at these low levels. Would like to have control over LUT inside the PJ as HDMI <1.3 will not allow me to use external processor to adjust LUT without introducing banding and quantization error due to 8Bit limit over digital......

Lets wait and pray :D

HDMI <1.3 will not allow me to use external processor to adjust LUT without introducing banding and quantization error due to 8Bit limit over digital......10-bit per component 4:2:2 YCbCr is included in the HDMI 1.1 standard.

Why would you pay for an expensive processor do decoding, transcoding, deinterlacing, and scaling if you will output half color information?? 4:2:2 should be only at source output IMHO.

I'm on the pre-buy list and will use my existing Lumagen HDP as a switcher, at least (to send just one digital cable to the PJ). I will be feeding it mostly 1080i, using an HD DVD player and a new mpeg4 D* HD DVR. This new DVR has native mode, always sending whatever res to my Lumagen (and it has an indicator on the front panel to tell what res it is receiving). I have noticed that almost all the channels I've been watching are 1080i (although probably "lite"). This means that with a 1080p pj, whichever video processor is used, it will almost always only be doing de-interlacing, almost never any scaling.
Hmmm - this only applies if the Lumagen is doing passthrough.
If there's any scaling done at all - it will first deinterlace it and then re-interlace it. So be careful :)

I sent a note to Tom the other night and he said he won't know until Jan at the earliest. I am in the same boat, I need 'want' 2.35:1 stretch as part of the internal scaler. I've just bought an ISCOIII to pair with this projector and now I can't afford an external scaler. Let's wait and see... Tom knows people want this and I'm sure he will pass the message on.

I asked this in another thread but will ask it here again in case someone here knows something..

So, does anyone have the latest news whether or not this RS1 will do the proper scaling for CH 2:35.1 with a VC lens? It is important to me since I do not have an external scaler plus what is the point of an external scaler if this PJ possesses one of the best scalers in the industry the Gennum? What a waste if it wouldn't do the proper stretch since it would force people into buying an external scaler only for that purpose.

Never2Big-
This has been discussed elsewhere in this thread as well as the CEDIA one.
I think you'll find a smattering of opinions. My current set-up has an external VP, so I'm planing on just putting the JVC into that - I'm using a Lumagen HDQ - looking to upgrade to the next Lumagen once it ships.

The JVC ships with the Gennum VXP image processing chip. This is a next generation, top of the line video processing chip that is shared with many of the top of the line video processors (forthcoming Lumagen Radiance, Crysalio II, etc). I don't think we know much about the implementation of this chip into the JVC - but either way it's coming with very advanced video processing. That said, I think it's also tough to argue that the use of this chip by one of the video processors will likely exceed that of the JVC. Only time (and experimentation) will tell.

The JVC ships with the Gennum VXP image processing chip. This is a next generation, top of the line video processing chip that is shared with many of the top of the line video processors (forthcoming Lumagen Radiance, Crysalio II, etc). I don't think we know much about the implementation of this chip into the JVC - but either way it's coming with very advanced video processing. That said, I think it's also tough to argue that the use of this chip by one of the video processors will likely exceed that of the JVC. Only time (and experimentation) will tell.If I can disagree on a couple of points...

First, the VXP chip in the Radiance will be the new 9450, rather than the 9350/51 used in the others.

Second, the Radiance will use the VXP for deinterlacing, but their own custom algorithms before and after the VXP processing, including their proprietry "NoRing" scaling algorithm. So it is very possible that external VPs will better all-in-one implementations of the VXP algorithms. In general, external VPs are more than just the "headline" chips that they use.

...it will be difficult to get proper D65 at sub 25IRE with only 2 controls (gain and bias) a LUT is necessarily at these low levels. Would like to have control over LUT inside the PJ as HDMI <1.3 will not allow me to use external processor to adjust LUT without introducing banding and quantization error due to 8Bit limit over digital......


Can you describe the these adjustments you are looking for and how you would like it to work in more detail? JVC does read this thread so it will help clarify the feature request for them.

Although I am experienced at calibrating with instrumentation, I am not familiar with the process of accessing the LUT. What does this do and how does it work? Is it basically a table that will allow you to apply a different level of gain/offset at particular IREs over other IREs?

My instrumentation reads well below 25 IRE and even as far down as 5 IRE. With the Ruby I was able to calibrate to D65 with 0-3 dE from 10-100 IRE but I had a dE of 8 at 5 IRE. It would have been great if I could have applied a specific change only for 0-9 IRE. Is this the type of thing the LUT is for?

wm: I was joking in my last post about flaming thing. ;) hence the smiley face. The problem is you didn't see the last couple of post before about my room etc.. that's all. So you're right it would seem foolish to you, but not too me. I am strongly considering the RS1, depending on price and the Pearl and a few others. I think I might wait and see what the CES brings, I will finally make it back there this year, it has been awhile.

Actually I did read the other posts... Note that I did not say it was foolish to be concerned about noise level. What I said was it is foolish to base decisions on the manufacturer reported numbers when they are this close and we don't have a production unit to measure, and I also mentioned that the Sony Pearl makes a different kind of sound than the JVC HD10K.

It's possible we will see a production RS1 at CES but I would be surprised if that happens.

Proper color gamut covering SRGB/SMTP-c/EBU are one of the abilities we generally take for granted as most other PJ in the same categories possess. (like Sony pearl,HD10K,...)


Funny you should mention the color accuracy of the Pearl because that was what started the CMS discussion. From gregr's Pearl review the red primary extends beyond the rec 709 spec so that reds are oversaturated. The Pearl also lacks CMS or saturation adjustments so that the gain/intensity of red needs to be lowered to minimize the look of the red push. Lowering the intensity of red helps make fleshtones look more realistic but it affects all of the colors to an extent. In other words the Pearl isn't ideal as far as color accuracy and it can't be corrected to make it ideal.

From what I've gathered from this discussion we do take color accuracy for granted, but the reality is that there is a wide variance of color accuracy in projectors today. Even if a manufacturer designs Rec 709 accurate primaries there is still a need for CMS to ensure that Rec 601 colors are also accurate.

It's possible we will see a production RS1 at CES but I would be surprised if that happens.

Well - here's hoping against hope that JVC can pull a rabbit out of a hat and have a production RS1 ready to show at CES. :) Although - CES is rapidly approaching w/ less than 5 weeks to go. :eek: And we have Christmas and New Years holidays in-between to slow things down. Gotta stay positive though.

Hopefully Tom will fill us in when it gets a little closer.

LovingDVD

a LUT (look up table) is a 2D table mapping color space primaries (eg RGB) intensity values in-out. It doesn't not complement gain/offset but rather replace it by giving native control over each primary channel intensity mapping. LUT values are usually set to get accurate D65 and gamma. The table itself is not sufficient to get accurate colors across all gamuts, but it can get white at D65 at All IRE. Working with LUT is more time/effort consuming and hence working with gain/offset is usually preferred. I personally would like the option to work with both :). Oh and congrats at getting your ruby D65 down to 10IRE. Very challenging to get small DE that low.

Mark,

Pearl color gamut do encompass most REC 709 and 601 SMTP C and hence my reference. Now using proper algorithms so that correct primaries coordinates are used depending on source is another matter. CMS can help. But If RS1 color gamut is not wide enough to include 709/601 primaries, no amount of electronics inside the PJ or outside in an external processor can correct that. If I find that RS1 gamut is as wide as Pearl, then I will be relieved simply knowing that with the right electronics (inboard or outboard) it is possible to get correct coordinates for all standards used.

ANyone know of a place to see the HD10K in the new york area? I have yet to see a DILA image, and want to before ordering the RS1.

But If RS1 color gamut is not wide enough to include 709/601 primaries, no amount of electronics inside the PJ or outside in an external processor can correct that. If I find that RS1 gamut is as wide as Pearl, then I will be relieved simply knowing that with the right electronics (inboard or outboard) it is possible to get correct coordinates for all standards used.Absolutely. Unfortunately, from the gamuts published in WideScreenReview for the Pearl and Meridian MF1 (which presumably has the same gamut as the HD10), the Pearl gamut surpasses the 709 gamut for all primaries, but the MF1 is very close - red and blue are pretty much spot on, with green out a bit.

Now if, as reported, the RS1 has a smaller gamut than the HD10, it is very likely that it does not encompass the 709 gamut fully, so primary correction will be very difficult. If attempted, I assume there will be some degree of saturation compression at the gamut extremes. How noticeable this will be, I don't know.

BTW, my rationale for going 10-bit 4:2:2 is that DVD is 4:2:0 and the per-pixel colour information was never there in the first place (2x2 sampling). However, I'm no expert here. I also don't know in what format HDDVD, BD and other HD media are stored. Throwing such information away, if originally present, would indeed be a waste.

Regarding color management...I notice that the Lumagen Radiance is to have primary color correction as well as their normal large palate of color correction controls. Granted, it would be great to get all that in a projector, but IMHO, that wish is reaching a bit. I'd rather JVC got the basics really good for the price, and let us add on "upgrade" control capabilities with a VP, if desired. That said, the Lumagen Radiance will bring a significant bit of pain to the pocketbook.

Regarding color management...I notice that the Lumagen Radiance is to have primary color correction as well as their normal large palate of color correction controls.I imagine that this will eventually arrive as advertised... But whether it makes it in the initial firmware, who can say! Like the other recent major VPs (CII, Vantage, VP50) there is bound to be a longish period of stabilization and adding of features that didn't make it on day one.

Please add one more request for a stretch function to accomodate an anamorphic lens. Lack of this feature effectively adds several thousand dollars to the price of a pj for us who have 2.35:1 setups and don't have a late-model vp.

VirusKiller - I understand your concern but I would be very, very surprised if the RS1's gamut did not at least cover the Rec 709 and then some (wider). In fact I can't remember a recent pj review for piece in this price/performance level that could not cover all Rec 709 points. It may not be AS wide as the 10K, but that shouldn't matter except for those that like an oversaturated picture.

VirusKiller - I understand your concern but I would be very, very surprised if the RS1's gamut did not at least cover the Rec 709 and then some (wider). In fact I can't remember a recent pj review for piece in this price/performance level that could not cover all Rec 709 points. It may not be AS wide as the 10K, but that shouldn't matter except for those that like an oversaturated picture.

Here is a review of the HD10K:
http://www.hdtvexpert.com/pages_b/jvc_dla-hd10k_projector.html

The red and blue primaries are pretty much dead on Rec. 709, but the green is a little narrower. The review says that 98% of the 709 color gamut is reached, which is good, but if the RS1 is narrower than the HD10K (according to JVC) then the 709 gamut will be less than 98% - how much less is really the question.

I would also like the processor to include the stretch function for a 2.35 CIH setup.

Not sure we covered this already, but since there's no new info...

Several people who saw the JVC and the Sharp at HE said the JVC looked as good or better.

Since then some very laudatory reviews of the Sharp have come out.

Does anyone have a feel for whether the Sharp that JVC showed at HE was performing to the same level as it was in the reviews (the illusion of 3D in particular)?

Here is a review of the HD10K:
http://www.hdtvexpert.com/pages_b/jvc_dla-hd10k_projector.html

The red and blue primaries are pretty much dead on Rec. 709, but the green is a little narrower. The review says that 98% of the 709 color gamut is reached, which is good, but if the RS1 is narrower than the HD10K (according to JVC) then the 709 gamut will be less than 98% - how much less is really the question.

Ouch. I wasn't aware of that. I'm not at all familiar with the HD10K but thought I read it had a wide gamut that exceeded Rec 709. So naturally when I heard the RS1 would be less I wasn't too concerned. Now that I know the HD10K was barely meeting Rec 709 in green and the RS1 is said to be narrower... Please put this question on the list for JVC @ CES.

Not sure we covered this already, but since there's no new info...

Several people who saw the JVC and the Sharp at HE said the JVC looked as good or better.

Since then some very laudatory reviews of the Sharp have come out.

Does anyone have a feel for whether the Sharp that JVC showed at HE was performing to the same level as it was in the reviews (the illusion of 3D in particular)?

Interesting question. I went back and read all of the Expo comments of the side-by-side and everyone said that the JVC looked better overall. Some people felt that there were some areas the Sharp may have held a slight edge (most often mentioned was sharpness). I too thought the JVC was better overall. Who knows if the Sharp was performing at it's best though, but the same could be said of the JVC as it sounds as though the production unit should exceed the prototype that was displayed (at least according to Lon Mass of JVC).


Ouch. I wasn't aware of that. I'm not at all familiar with the HD10K but thought I read it had a wide gamut that exceeded Rec 709. So naturally when I heard the RS1 would be less I wasn't too concerned. Now that I know the HD10K was barely meeting Rec 709 in green and the RS1 is said to be narrower... Please put this question on the list for JVC @ CES.


The HD10K doesn't actually meet Rec. 709 in green. Despite that the colors look great on this projector. It makes a person wonder why the RS1 doesn't get the same primaries as it's sibling... Let's hope that despite the narrower primaries the colors will still look good.

I would also like the processor to include the stretch function for a 2.35 CIH setup.

Me too! Why not add support for all the aspect ratios with a CH 2.35:1 set up (not removing the lens).

Please add one more request for a stretch function to accomodate an anamorphic lens. Lack of this feature effectively adds several thousand dollars to the price of a pj for us who have 2.35:1 setups and don't have a late-model vp

I'm with you guys too... stretch scaling for anamorphic would be huge IMO.

I agree and would go as far to suggest that inbuilt stretch scaling would be enough to push a lot of people over to purchase (at least us nuts on here - and yes, me included).

Please add one more request for a stretch function to accomodate an anamorphic lens. Lack of this feature effectively adds several thousand dollars to the price of a pj for us who have 2.35:1 setups and don't have a late-model vp

I'm with you guys too... stretch scaling for anamorphic would be huge IMO.
The so called stretch for anamorphic lens option actually would require two modes. For 2.35 the picture must be zoomed up vertically and for 1.78 or less it must be compressed horizontally in order to keep the lens in place.

While it would be nice this seems to be asking a lot from an entry level projector who's main focus is a performance/price ratio.

for 1.78 or less it must be compressed horizontally in order to keep the lens in place.Wouldn't you move the lens out of the way in order to utilize the whole panel?

BTW, I agree about the amount of processing. This is a projector with, hopefully, excellent basic processing. It is not a video processor.

Wouldn't you move the lens out of the way in order to utilize the whole panel?...
You must have never used an anaphoric lens. Repositioning it correctly requires a lot of effort. ;)

You must have never used an anaphoric lens.How did you guess!!! I'd assumed that there were (at least high end) motorized lenses that could be automatically moved out of the way.

VK, nice to see you over from Hitchikers (I presume there is only one of you). There are lens mounts that are automatic and most cost more than the original lens. William is right. You do need to be precise, but provided you have an automatic sled (or are really finicky with a manual lens), there is no reason why the scaler that comes included with this projector couldn't provide 2.35.

I've just purchased (about to hand over the money) an ISCOIII and I'm keenly waiting on CineSlide, to use as an automatic sled. If this projector delivers on the 2.35 stretch, I'm in with bells on.

True except I believe someone from jvc mentioned (directly or indirectly) that they were trying to implement this. I think the request made in this thread is just to tell JVC that for sure they will get more buyers with this feature.

While it would be nice this seems to be asking a lot from an entry level projector who's main focus is a performance/price ratio.

Hi William,

I've made the decision to purchase the ISCOIII and an automatic sled (more than likely CineSlide.com) and spend what's left on a projector in the price range of the RS-1. I can always replace the projector later, but I shouldn't need to replace the ISCOIII. I'm just saying, as are a few others, that there's no reason why the on board scaler with the RS-1 couldn't do 2.35. We should hear back with confirmation from Tom, some time in Jan.

Cheers,

Chris

What is the MSRP on the ISCO III?

Hi William,

I've made the decision to purchase the ISCOIII and an automatic sled (more than likely CineSlide.com) and spend what's left on a projector in the price range of the RS-1. I can always replace the projector later, but I shouldn't need to replace the ISCOIII. I'm just saying, as are a few others, that there's no reason why the on board scaler with the RS-1 couldn't do 2.35. We should hear back with confirmation from Tom, some time in Jan.

Cheers,

Chris

Chris:

At least not until the ISCO IV is released because -- after all -- we all suffer from what we WANT, not what we NEED. :)

ANyone know of a place to see the HD10K in the new york area? I have yet to see a DILA image, and want to before ordering the RS1.
I think SXRD is about the same. I actually saw the Sony Pearl at Best Buy yesterday. They had a local guy build a room and calibrate the projector. It looked very good. Check the Best Buys in you area. I have never seen a JVC projector and have been all over the place. I had to travel to Miami to see the Sony Qualia a couple of years back.

The local Best Buy won't install the Pearl in it's dedicated theater (Mag Hi Fi) because they say it won't sell. I guess it's too rich for the local market... very surprising since it's upper middle class. The funny thing is they have several Pioneer LCD displays selling upwards of $10k. Then again, this place wouldn't put a HDVD player in the Mag HiFi because it's "against the rules". I think they've got their head up their...

Oh, BTW, that same BB has HD DVDs in a prominent position (in clear sight of the main entryway) whereas the Blu-Ray disks face the back of the store.

It would have been nice to see similar technology to the JVC before purchasing.

The local Best Buy here install the Pearl in it's dedicated theater (Mag Hi Fi) because they say it won't sell. I guess it's too rich for the local market... very surprising since it's upper middle class. The funny thing is they have several Pioneer LCD displays selling upwards of $10k. Then again, this place wouldn't put a HDVD player in the Mag HiFi because it's "against the rules". I think they've got their head up their...

Try the Magnolia out in Roseville. They had a Pearl installed a few months ago.

Thanks!

Well - here's hoping against hope that JVC can pull a rabbit out of a hat and have a production RS1 ready to show at CES. :) Although - CES is rapidly approaching w/ less than 5 weeks to go. :eek: And we have Christmas and New Years holidays in-between to slow things down. Gotta stay positive though.

Hopefully Tom will fill us in when it gets a little closer.

I am due to be seeing what i have been told by JVC is a production model tmrw in London. So we shall see.....

I am due to be seeing what i have been told by JVC is a production model tmrw in London. So we shall see.....

Stop saying things like this! You know what will happen now. "Production Model! Maybe we will get them before Xmas!" My heart can't take it.

I am due to be seeing what i have been told by JVC is a production model tmrw in London. So we shall see.....

Great news. Sounds like JVC is on track. They were expecting to have early run production units (basically these would be similar to or actual production units, but made in small quantities as a test run for QA and other purposes) around mid Dec.

Elliot - can you please ask them what the on/off CR, ANSI CR, and lumens at D65 measured for this unit? Also it would be great if you can verify for certain with them that the lumens do not change based on throw. Thanks and we look forward to your report!

I'll see what i can find out :) More info posted up on the UK site RS1 Info (http://www.jvc.co.uk/site/d-ila/)

I imagine that the hardware will be production, but not the software...

I imagine that the hardware will be production, but not the software...

Yes, although the hardware could still be subject to tweaking based on what they find and how things come together. Exciting news indeed.

Just curious, what will the cost for a blub replacement be?

Hey maybe I will build my own HD Projector ;) LOL Not enough time in one day to even start this project........ LOL

http://www.engadget.com/2006/12/06/how-to-build-your-own-hd-projector-part-6/

I'll see what i can find out :) More info posted up on the UK site RS1 Info (http://www.jvc.co.uk/site/d-ila/)Great introduction to the technology behind the improvements.

Also, the chart on vertical vs. horizontal lens shift is very important for tricky installations as it shows you can't have both maximum vertical and horizontal shift at the same time. For example, at maximum vertical shift there can't be any horizontal shift.

--Dan

From the specifications page of the link above. Not that this means a lot, but wasn't it listed at 27db before?

"Noise level 25dB (in normal mode)"

I am due to be seeing what i have been told by JVC is a production model tmrw in London. So we shall see.....

Very much look forward to your report!!

Elliot,
Please be sure to also check on the size and gain of the screen used.

Randall Morton: You are correct according to JVC's spec page on this unit, it is listed at 27db. Not sure if this has changed yet, for most this would not be a big deal.

http://pro.jvc.com/prof/attributes/specs.jsp?model_id=MDL101681&feature_id=03

The specs from the UK website indicate that the lens has a F value of 3.2-4.3. Does this not indicate that the RS1 does not have a constant aperture lens, and that its light output will be effected by the zoom setting.

does that mean 2073.6 out of 2073600 pixels can be dead?


"♦ Please be aware that, because the D-ILA device is manufactured using highly advanced technologies, 0.01% or fewer of the pixels may be non-performing (always on or off)."

Actually it means that only 207.36 pixels may be non-performing. Oh, and I suppose given that there is no mention of placement, these 207.36 pixels could all be clustered in the center of the screen. Nice!!!

LOL - I just picked up on this on the UK forums.
Wherever they are - its still a heck of a lot. I wonder how many can actually be non-perfroming without us noticing - I haven't heard anyone mention a dead pixel on the Pearl threads.

As mentioned on the UK forum, that could be 207 dead pixels per panel, or 622 all told. I doubt this would really be allowed to happen and end up with a customer, but it would be interesting to know what would happen if a customer rejected a unit at a dealers after seeing it for example (and found it had some visble dead pixels). I don't think I've seen this mentioned regarding other JVC DILA products...

I wonder if a dealer could run a dead pixel policy like many do for LCDs projectors.

Gary

The specs from the UK website indicate that the lens has a F value of 3.2-4.3. Does this not indicate that the RS1 does not have a constant aperture lens, and that its light output will be effected by the zoom setting.

Looks like things will be a little dimmer at full zoom, just like the Sony...
The same F values were included in JVC Japan's November 14 press release.

Looks like things will be a little dimmer at full zoom, just like the Sony...


What Sony are you referring to - the Pearl or Ruby or something else? What is the F stop info on that Sony?

I sure hope not - those pjs are around 20% dimmer at max throw which is certainly a lot more significant than 'a little dimmer'.

So are you saying you think the this means it'll be brightest at min throw and dimmest at max throw? Or would it be the case that it would be basically the same for much of the range except near max throw?

We have heard stable brightness over the zoom range from JVC. I will believe that until reality tells us otherwise. Can a lens be specified with a certain F-range but be designed to perform with constant brightness in practise.

I doubt there will be a big pixel problem. Isn´t this kind of statement something like a parachute giving instructions that in no way is this thing to be used for parachuting.

The specs from the UK website indicate that the lens has a F value of 3.2-4.3. Does this not indicate that the RS1 does not have a constant aperture lens, and that its light output will be effected by the zoom setting.
The only zoom lenses I have ever seen that have a constant aperture are the lenses we use on motion picture cameras and high-end HD video lenses. Even some professional video lenses will clamp about a stop in the last few mm of focal length. That happened on my first HD commercial shoot a few years ago. I just zoomed in when we wanted a close-up shot, and initially didn't notice the drop in exposure. When I did notice it, I began to try to figure out if the key light got kicked :D I learned to avoid those last few mm, or overlight by a stop for the wide shot. ;)
So are you saying you think the this means it'll be brightest at min throw and dimmest at max throw? Or would it be the case that it would be basically the same for much of the range except near max throw?
I think it means both. I doubt that the reduction is light is linear. It probably clamps the stop near the long end...and that is about a stop, one half the light. That changes my installation plans a little. :eek: I have to stay a bit closer.

BTW, one factor affecting luminance I never hear anyone consider is simple inverse square loss of light due to a longer throw. That should be a factor most noticable at throw distances inside about 15' or so. Anybody every consider it? Or is there some technology about projector optics I'm missing?

I claim no expertise on projector lighting, just a long time ardent photography buff, having dealt a lot with f-stops on camera lenses. I got the following definition from Answers.com:

"The greater the f-number, the less light per unit area reaches the image plane of the system."

Since the f-number at the longer end of the zoom range is larger, less light will reach the image plane (screen) when the projector is farther away from the screen, if the screen size remains constant. I'm not sure, but the effect may be linear (eg. at half the zoom, the f-number could be mid way between 3.2 and 4.3). If anyone has a better understanding of this, I would appreciate their input.

The sony reference I made was to some posts on other threads regarding the Ruby. The consensus seems to be that the projector is brightest at its widest zoom. You can check the specs on the Ruby for the f-numbers on the Ruby lens, maybe that will help to determine how much difference we should expect on the JVC.

Whoops, sorry Cam Man, I posted before I saw your reply :)
Sony Ruby ( from Sony web site) fl 8.7 to 33.7 mm/F2.54 to 3.53 mm

BTW, one factor affecting luminance I never hear anyone consider is simple inverse square loss of light due to a longer throw. That should be a factor most noticable at throw distances inside about 15' or so. Anybody every consider it? Or is there some technology about projector optics I'm missing?
Are you talking about the way that light from a candle or flashlight will be dimmer the further it is away from the object reflecting its light?

If so, that concept does not apply to projectors because the light is all focused on a particular plane. It is not "spreading out" and losing intensity.

We have heard stable brightness over the zoom range from JVC. I will believe that until reality tells us otherwise.

As I posted here earlier, Ken from JVC specifically told me that his understanding is that it would be similar to other JVC lens that remain constant over the zoom range so they were thinking this would be the case for the RS1 as well, but said that he wanted to verify this with his engineering group to find out for sure. So it seems this still remains to be seen.

Sony Ruby ( from Sony web site) fl 8.7 to 33.7 mm/F2.54 to 3.53 mm

I'm not familiar with lens and F stop values. In comparing those Ruby lens F stop #s to that of the RS1, can we conclude that it will be any better (or worse) than the Ruby's loss of light over the zoom range?