HiDef DVD News VII - News Only : AND WE MEAN IT: NEWS ONLY

[Talkstr8t]

How is a Zune review even remotely related to this forum?The original post discussed an analyst's viewpoint on Microsoft. The Zune review is directly related to that opinion.

[b2bonez]

It's all about focus and execution. Can anyone tell me why the $249 Wii can launch to great reviews (and have my wife telling me she's interested in it) and why the most expensive game console ever (that was delayed a year) can't?

Who's interest does it serve to make excuses for Sony on this? and is anyone buying the line about this is the console for Sony for the next 10 years as well? I see too much BS and not enough delivery out of Sony.

Go buy the wife the Wii, don't worry about. I you're that impatient, I suggest not to plant flowers, try to grow your own vegetables or buy a PS3 anytime real soon. ;)

b2b

[Talkstr8t]

It's all about focus and execution. Can anyone tell me why the $249 Wii can launch to great reviews (and have my wife telling me she's interested in it) and why the most expensive game console ever (that was delayed a year) can't?Are you claiming there are no great reviews for the PS3? There are many, many. And those which aren't "great reviews" are usually pointing out easily corrected items, such as UI issues, lack of polish around network features, no inclusion of HDMI cables, or (current) lack of must-have titles (beyond RFoM). None of these issues are fundamental to the design of the player. I haven't seen a single review which suggests the PS3 will be unable to live up to its promise. Every "negative" review I've seen is only negative in the context of its current price, its current lineup of titles, or the current difficulty with obtaining one.

[onanie]

It's all about focus and execution. Can anyone tell me why the $249 Wii can launch to great reviews (and have my wife telling me she's interested in it) and why the most expensive game console ever (that was delayed a year) can't?

Who's interest does it serve to make excuses for Sony on this? and is anyone buying the line about this is the console for Sony for the next 10 years as well? I see too much BS and not enough delivery out of Sony.

Last I heard the PS3 was delayed from Spring to November (not a year). There are great reviews for the PS3 (perhaps you've missed them. Correction, unless you only read the ones that are posted here), as there are for the Wii. Price alone never propped up a review score.

Ultimately, it is what one believes in. I can see no reason why the PS3 will not carry us through for the next 10 years. It has a next generation drive, among other things :)

[Michael Mullis]

Well there is the XBox Game ad right in the middle of the article..

I love a good conspiracy theory. :)


Most reviews have also noted that the titles we see today pale in comparison to what we're likely to see once developers have gained some experience with the system. Clearly the PS3 has far more to work with: far higher disc capacity, six-access controllers, mandatory hard drive, phenomenal graphics hardware, open platform. I'm confident by the time production catches up to demand the quality of titles will improve to the point that there will be a clear difference in system capability versus the Xbox 360.

Ok, so now we can push that timeline back to:

"Well.......wait until people learn how to makes games on the PS3".

It's amazing. Well, in the meantime, while you're waiting, we're playing high-quality Xbox 360 games. :)

[2Channel]

Go buy the wife the Wii, don't worry about. I you're that impatient, I suggest not to plant flowers, try to grow your own vegetables or buy a PS3 anytime real soon. ;)

b2b

Well, I'll have you know that I do plant flowers and grow my own vegetables. I'm hoping to get one more tomato out of the garden as a matter of fact. ;)

I just don't have a lot of tolerance for all of the excuses. It reminds me too much of the party line on BD. "In the future it will be so much better." Really? Can I get that in writing? I guess I trust my tomatoes more than vendor promises. ;)

[b2bonez]

Well, I'll have you know that I do plant flowers and grow my own vegetables. I'm hoping to get one more tomato out of the garden as a matter of fact. ;)

I just don't have a lot of tolerance for all of the excuses. It reminds me too much of the party line on BD. "In the future it will be so much better." Really? Can I get that in writing? I guess I trust my tomatoes more than vendor promises. ;)

It took world class HW engineering to put together all the HW pieces of the PS3 and it's going to take world class SW engineering like what is seen in the current CGI of movies to show what the PS3 can do. You will start to see results in a reasonable length of time or not. In any case you don't have to buy one unless those things happen and in the worst case you will end up getting what can be done on the Xbox or the Wii.

Buy and wait or wait and see. The options are really pretty simple...

b2b

[mobius]

Well you certainly shouldn't be surprised by that when you make exaggerations like saying that no MPEG-2 disc has yet to equal a VC-1 disc. Statements like that just weaken your more legitimate arguments. To show that I know that Sony has made mistakes and that I am fair about this I will make a short list of them:


They should have released a subsidized stand alone Blu-ray player. Once Sony knew that Toshiba was going to do that they should have done that as well since it would help disprove the myth that Blu-ray players cost twice as much to make as HD DVD players. A myth that continues to be believed even today.



But Sony is releasing a subsidized player- the PS3. It's not a standalone, but I thought that part of "the sell" to the studios was that the PS3 would be Bluray's Trojan Horse?

Besides that, do you really think that Sony wants to take it up the subsidization kazoo twice? At the same time?

[onanie]

Well, I'll have you know that I do plant flowers and grow my own vegetables. I'm hoping to get one more tomato out of the garden as a matter of fact. ;)

I just don't have a lot of tolerance for all of the excuses. It reminds me too much of the party line on BD. "In the future it will be so much better." Really? Can I get that in writing? I guess I trust my tomatoes more than vendor promises. ;)

The future has consistently arrived (e.g. BD50). Don't know about "excuses", but some of us are merely imparting upon you and others our own perspectives on the war.

[mobius]

So how many times are the HD-DVD fans going to post about the same two articles... ?? So are Seth and Lev the new wizards of gaming ??

:rolleyes:


And Seth fell into MS's backpocket over a year ago..

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/25/arts/25xbox.html?ex=1164258000&en=3df0b82c80f25794&ei=5070

b2b


How is this:

There is a saying in technology circles, often delivered with rueful respect, that if you give the folks at Microsoft enough chances, they will eventually deliver a compelling product. They did it with spreadsheets. They did it with Web browsers. And now, with the new Xbox 360, the Bill Gates team has delivered a legitimately excellent gaming and home media system. And there is nothing rueful about that.

Certainly, the graphics are incredibly detailed, lifelike and vivid, far beyond anything conceivable in the current generation of game consoles. Playing an Xbox 360 game can be almost like controlling a Pixar animated film or inhabiting "Band of Brothers." And that's on a regular old television. On a high-definition set, get ready for your eyes to weep.

falling into Microsoft's back pocket exactly?

So he likes the console and he likes the games? If you're a gamer, the 360 *is* a compelling product with some awesome games. That doesn't mean he's in Microsoft's back pocket any more than you are in Sony's back pocket.

[mobius]

What is amazing is to see that level of propaganda so well placed and at the level it was published. As far as being prepared, all that took was 5 mins. on google and another 10 looking at what those guys were all about. One guy is a general purpose writer and the other is so in love with Microsoft, his review is almost as biased as if Bill Gates wrote it himself. ;)

b2b


Or maybe we're seeing a media backlash from all of Kutaragi's big mouthing about the PS3.

[2Channel]

Well you certainly shouldn't be surprised by that when you make exaggerations like saying that no MPEG-2 disc has yet to equal a VC-1 disc. Statements like that just weaken your more legitimate arguments. To show that I know that Sony has made mistakes and that I am fair about this I will make a short list of them:

So a number of BD supporters say we're past the early Mpeg2 problems. Look at Tears of the Sun, it looks great. Ok, but then I look at the reviews of a critical launch title like Talladega Nights, and it doesn't. Maybe I'm being unfare, but it still seems like it's hit or miss with Mpeg2. My impression with reading VC-1 reviews is that if the source was good, or the movie was remastered, the disc looks great. With Mpeg2 it still seems hit or miss. I'll continue reading the reviews...who knows, maybe I'll change my mind, but I haven't seen anything persuasive yet.



Using MPEG-2 for all their Blu-ray movies was not a good idea and many of their early movies suffered from over compression because of that. Overall there is little reason for them to stick with MPEG-2 and even when their movies aren't negatively affected by using it they will get bashed because they continue to use it.


I get that Sony will never use VC-1, it's politically unacceptable. So how about they champion Mpeg4 and put the work into using a modern codec that has more potential? I can only find one explanation, and AnthonyP hit on it. When your only choice on a prticular title is the DVD in Mpeg2 or the BD in Mpeg2, guess which one is going to look better? I don't want to chear on a company behaving that way.


They should have released a subsidized stand alone Blu-ray player. Once Sony knew that Toshiba was going to do that they should have done that as well since it would help disprove the myth that Blu-ray players cost twice as much to make as HD DVD players. A myth that continues to be believed even today.


The problem is that there is simply not enogh blue laser supply. If Sony chose to do this they would have had to fall back to a DVD drive on the PS3.....which has been a big part of all the PS3 delays. Toshiba out flanked them on this one and there was nothing Sony could do about it. Sony can't even make enough PS3s without a low cost stand alone player eating into their blue laser supply.


They should not have overestimated the number of PS3 consoles they would be able to make this year. It gave their opponents an opportunity to attack them and made them look bad.


This I can understand. Forget what the opponents say now, they had to pump up the studios and convince them it was a safe bet to deliver titles on BD. If the studios knew how few PS3s would be available at launch, things might have turned out differently.


They should have included an IR receiver on the PS3 and released a remote for it on day one. Honestly releasing a Bluetooth remote a month after the PS3 makes it look like Sony forgot one of the uses that they were hoping for from PS3 owners. That being the playback of Blu-ray movies.


Agreed. The remote should have been ready for purchase day one. There's no explicable reason why they could not have a different team put a remote together when this product has been in development for so long.


Sony should have released a knock out movie or two this winter since a surprise announcement of Spiderman would have gotten a lot of publicity. Instead it was Fox who got closest to doing that with X-Men 3.


Yes, that brings me back to my concerns about Mpeg2 and Sony's go to market approach. Why do they feel this is good enough? In an odd way I've come to see the format war in a positive light. If we only had Blu-Ray what would the price of BD discs be (answer honetly b2b ;) )? And would we all be looking at The Fifth Element and saying "wow, this is great?" Competition is a good thing, and I think both formats will still be slugging it out all of next year.

[b2bonez]

How is this:



falling into Microsoft's back pocket exactly?

So he likes the console and he likes the games? If you're a gamer, the 360 *is* a compelling product with some awesome games. That doesn't mean he's in Microsoft's back pocket any more than you are in Sony's back pocket.

There is a saying in technology circles, often delivered with rueful respect, that if you give the folks at Microsoft enough chances, they will eventually deliver a compelling product. They did it with spreadsheets. They did it with Web browsers. And now, with the new Xbox 360, the Bill Gates team has delivered a legitimately excellent gaming and home media system. And there is nothing rueful about that.

That quote was taken right after the 360 was released. If that isn't a royal smacko on the buttocks of Bill Gates in particular and Microsoft in general, I don't know what is. ;)

Even if I was in Sony's back pocket, I wouldn't be as overt as Seth and have the nerve to put that into print in the NYT.

b2b

[mobius]

Well there is the XBox Game ad right in the middle of the article..
http://www.hardcoreware.net/image.php?src=5350&ts=1164033279

Plus if he hates PS3 so bad why is he developing games for it ???


The "anonymous friend" again... Funny how Mr. Anonymous is so universally a PS3 basher.. ;)

b2b


Maybe he works for Activision, Ubi, or Capcom?

[David Susilo]

The future has consistently arrived (e.g. BD50).

really?

"Wait until BD is released, it'll blow HD-DVD out of the water"... it doesn't happen
"Wait until BD-50 is released, it'll blow HD-DVD out of the water"... doesn't happen either
"Wait until November 17th, Blu-ray will kill HD-DVD".... it doesn't happen either

here I am, with a BD player at home, hooked up, and still waiting for BD to kill and/or blow HD-DVD out of the water.

[onanie]

really?

"Wait until BD is released, it'll blow HD-DVD out of the water"... it doesn't happen
"Wait until BD-50 is released, it'll blow HD-DVD out of the water"... doesn't happen either
"Wait until November 17th, Blu-ray will kill HD-DVD".... it doesn't happen either

here I am, with a BD player at home, hooked up, and still waiting for BD to kill and/or blow HD-DVD out of the water.

If that's the only thing left that we're waiting for, then BD is all set, really.

[David Susilo]

no, the major one thing I'm waiting is the promise of Bluray of performing better than HD-DVD (ie better PQ and AQ, which is so far, at best, is on par with HD-DVD)

[onanie]

no, the major one thing I'm waiting is the promise of Bluray of performing better than HD-DVD (ie better PQ and AQ, which is so far, at best, is on par with HD-DVD)

Indeed, if that is the only thing we're waiting for from Blu-ray, then it is set. The specs are set in stone, and there is no technical reason why it can't perform better.

For the moment, (ignoring the studio support situation for argument's sake), why do you need Blu-ray to be better than HD-DVD? It costs the same to get into either format, except that the PS3 does more.

[David Susilo]

there is no technical reason why it can't perform better. It's true. So why it still doesn't perform better?

PS3 better do more than HD-DVD, the price is about US$150 more than HD-DVD player. In Canada, the price difference between the two is about US$250 (ie. about 50% more than standalone HD-DVD player)

[talbain]

Most reviews have also noted that the titles we see today pale in comparison to what we're likely to see once developers have gained some experience with the system. Clearly the PS3 has far more to work with: far higher disc capacity, six-access controllers, mandatory hard drive, phenomenal graphics hardware, open platform. I'm confident by the time production catches up to demand the quality of titles will improve to the point that there will be a clear difference in system capability versus the Xbox 360.


don't count on it. there just isn't that much difference between the two systems. in fact, depending upon the technical article of the week, the 360 is the more powerful system. at least john carmack thinks so, and he's a guy who's opinion i value a hell of a lot more than i do yours (no offense)...

[onanie]

there is no technical reason why it can't perform better. It's true. So why it still doesn't perform better?

PS3 better do more than HD-DVD, the price is about US$150 more than HD-DVD player. In Canada, the price difference between the two is about US$250 (ie. about 50% more than standalone HD-DVD player)

There could be various reasons. Firstly, there are only three codecs - all shared by both formats (perhaps it is really only two at the moment VC-1 and mpeg2). When used within the same constraints e.g. space and bandwidth, they look the same. Secondly, movies are probably developed for the lowest common denominator - until HD DVD is killed off, this might remain to be the case (with some exceptions probably).

Again, with its other advantages (in hardware and software support), does Blu-ray PQ need to be better now?

If I may add a general point, perhaps for another line of discussion - if one is able to believe that even the best of encodes have yet to tax the theoretical limits of the human eye, then there is always room for improvement. Whatever limit we are at, we should ask for more, not less.

[hdkhang]

@b2b

You do realise how contradictory all your posts are. Anything positive for HD-DVD is obviously bad in some way, anything negative towards BD is transparent to the end user and is good enough so there is nothing wrong. Maybe if you took the same attitude towards both sides you'd see there was absolutely no point to your post in reply to a game dev stating his preference for developing for Xbox360 vs PS3. Is one not allowed to have an opinion that differs from yours without there being a hidden agenda?

If MS providing an excellent dev toolset or whatever its called results in excellent games, what is the end result for the gamers? Does it matter to them that the product was developed on a platform that is not as open as that of PS3s? Are you going to hear anyone say... "no I must not play Gears of War as it would be a sign of my support for closed dev environments" Much the same you won't hear anyone say... "no I must not buy BD-ROMs as the subsidies are costing the companies too much money and it feels like I'm ripping them off".

How about just responding when there is something worthwhile to add other than spin, FUD or conspiracy theories.

Cheers...
Duy-Khang Hoang

[2Channel]

don't count on it. there just isn't that much difference between the two systems. in fact, depending upon the technical article of the week, the 360 is the more powerful system. at least john carmack thinks so, and he's a guy who's opinion i value a hell of a lot more than i do yours (no offense)...

Do you have a link? I'd love to see this. John Carmack is a God when it comes to the field of FSP and 3D rendering technology.

[2Channel]

There could be various reasons. Firstly, there are only three codecs - all shared by both formats (perhaps it is really only two at the moment VC-1 and mpeg2). When used within the same constraints e.g. space and bandwidth, they look the same. Secondly, movies are probably developed for the lowest common denominator - until HD DVD is killed off, this might remain to be the case (with some exceptions probably).

Again, with its other advantages (in hardware and software support), does Blu-ray PQ need to be better now?

If I may add a general point, perhaps for another line of discussion - if one is able to believe that even the best of encodes have yet to tax the theoretical limits of the human eye, then there is always room for improvement. Whatever limit we are at, we should ask for more, not less.

It's like you're channeling Sony in this statement. We don't actually need to deliver better PQ, do we? I mean we're Sony. We have the studio support, look at all of our glossy adds, look at the PS3. I know we promissed better PQ, but I mean really it's not necessary.

[darinp2]

My impression with reading VC-1 reviews is that if the source was good, or the movie was remastered, the disc looks great. With Mpeg2 it still seems hit or miss.Some of the reviews for "Superman Returns" report it being soft and it could be a source issue, just like "Talledega Nights" could be a source issue. I'm a VC-1 fan, but issues like with "Click" and TN could definitely be source related.
I get that Sony will never use VC-1, it's politically unacceptable. So how about they champion Mpeg4 and put the work into using a modern codec that has more potential?My understanding is that Sony has an AVC/MPEG4 encoder. It could be that they just don't think it is ready for prime time at this point. I would be very surprised if they don't have people working on it.
Yes, that brings me back to my concerns about Mpeg2 and Sony's go to market approach. Why do they feel this is good enough? In an odd way I've come to see the format war in a positive light. If we only had Blu-Ray what would the price of BD discs be (answer honetly b2b ;) )? And would we all be looking at The Fifth Element and saying "wow, this is great?"Would you expect Warner and Universal releases to look worse if they had been releasing for Blu-ray instead of HD DVD? If not, why wouldn't we see the same differences between their stuff and Sony's stuff that we have seen? It is possible that Warner would not have had a "spend whatever it takes to make it look its best" attitude if they hadn't mostly been on the underdog side in a format war though.

--Darin

[What'sHD]

It's like you're channeling Sony in this statement. We don't actually need to deliver better PQ, do we? I mean we're Sony. We have the studio support, look at all of our glossy adds, look at the PS3. I know we promissed better PQ, but I mean really it's not necessary.
2channel, i am curious. IYO, how could we define better PQ for BD? Would it be:

1. A movie encoded for BD and HD by a common studio?
In this case, the encode is always the same, so far. So, we need a studio to encode the same movie separately, while using BD bitrate to the max with same encoder.

2. A movie which is BD exclusive?
No way to compare and no objective way to say the movie looks better than all HD movies even if it does, since we have not seen what HD can do with the same master.

3. Other way?

I dunno how the debate of BD's PQ should be > HD PQ can ever be settled in the real world.

Only imaginary path I can think of is Sony studios encoding a movie owned by a common studio, JUST to demo BD PQ >= HD PQ

[DTV TiVo Dealer]

I am very sorry and sad to say this great forum is being damaged by the silly childish remarks of the same handful of offending members. Personally I do not want to read this crap and if I did I would read trash books.

We come to this forum to get technical information and industry news and since this format war began we get bombarded with worthless trash talk. If you don't have educational information or a honest question to add to the threads please do not post at all. It does not help your position or yourself by posting garbage and if anything it damages your reputation. Lets all take the great mods advice and "take the high road in every post you make"

Please guys grow up and maintain the high quality this forum was built on.

-Robert

[Richard Paul]

Here goes the Blu-ray mantra all over again:

"wait until (insert excuse here)"Before saying that could you at least read what I posted and think about it for a bit. No offense but if people had used GUN to judge the Xbox 360 would you have defended them?


Who's interest does it serve to make excuses for Sony on this? and is anyone buying the line about this is the console for Sony for the next 10 years as well? I see too much BS and not enough delivery out of Sony.Why do people bash Sony for saying that the PS3 would be a viable game console for ten years? They never said that the PS4 wouldn't come out before than.


Ok, so now we can push that timeline back to:

"Well.......wait until people learn how to makes games on the PS3".Michael, all talkstr8t said was that PS3 games will get better with time as developers get use to the PS3. That to be blunt is not an unreasonable statement to make. Also making up that quote to use against him was a pretty deceptive thing to do since many people would assume that he posted that. In case that was meant to be an exaggeration you really should be clear about that when you do it.

[Richard Paul]

So a number of BD supporters say we're past the early Mpeg2 problems. Look at Tears of the Sun, it looks great. Ok, but then I look at the reviews of a critical launch title like Talladega Nights, and it doesn't. Maybe I'm being unfare, but it still seems like it's hit or miss with Mpeg2.Just because Talladega Nights wasn't well reviewed does not mean that it was based on which video codec was used. Also it has been a while since I have heard about a Sony Blu-ray movie that suffered from obvious compression artifacts, which was a problem with early titles.


My impression with reading VC-1 reviews is that if the source was good, or the movie was remastered, the disc looks great.Well as long as you count out the movies that had poor sources that would certainly help with reviews on video quality.


With Mpeg2 it still seems hit or miss.What happens though if you count out the movies with poor sources?


I get that Sony will never use VC-1, it's politically unacceptable. So how about they champion Mpeg4 and put the work into using a modern codec that has more potential?Personally I think they will eventually switch to MPEG-4 AVC HP and they certainly have no political reason not to use it.


When your only choice on a prticular title is the DVD in Mpeg2 or the BD in Mpeg2, guess which one is going to look better? I don't want to chear on a company behaving that way.Than don't, if you think a Blu-ray movie from Sony doesn't look good enough from reviews of it than don't buy it. At the same time though going against Blu-ray simply because you don't think Sony is doing good enough with their releases is in my opinion cutting off your nose to spite your face.


The problem is that there is simply not enogh blue laser supply.That could be true and the supply of blue laser diodes will be tight this winter.


Competition is a good thing, and I think both formats will still be slugging it out all of next year.I certainly don't mind competition but I dislike the idea of universal players becoming standard. Personally speaking it would just seem so unnecessary especially if/when Universal starts supporting Blu-ray.

[nilsp]

Robert, wouldn't that be nice. But is it realistic? On any forum where anyone can sign up? One can hope, but... Hope spings eternal, they say, well in our case, the emphasis would be on eternal.

Myself being in the Blu-ray camp, I finally give up trying to respond to the barrage from certain HD DVD individuals. I've been following this thread since the original start a couple of years ago, there's always been bickering, but as you say Robert, it's recently gotten much worse. I pity the "uneducated" coming into this forum looking for unbiased information... (At least some of them are easy to spot from their .sig)

I'm sure some HD DVD people would say the same about the Blu-ray folks...

Here are a couple of the points I offer from my viewpoint, as I will spend more time in the future watching movies and playing games, than arguing which format/platform/box/disc/release/codec is better. (Will still skim through, and respond to outlandish claims one way or the other...:))

* Both HD DVD and Blu-ray releases now have excellent PQ/AQ, though hit and miss on both sides.
* Improved PQ on Blu-ray titles, can most likely be attributed to VC-1 on HD DVD. So big thanks to MS for an excellent codec. Competition is good.
* AQ on both are also very very good, again hit and miss on both sides.
* Studio support is still in favor of Blu-ray, but it may change, depending on the continued success of HD DVD.
* As What's HD mentions above, difference in PQ between platforms are hard to measure. And how can Blu-ray come out with better PQ than HD DVD, if the HD DVD release is already virtually visually transparent to the master? Both will have great PQ, simple as that. Now we can just hope every studio will maximize PQ on each release.

One the PS3:
* The PS3 is out, and for those interested, provides good PQ Blu-ray playback. Will easily hold you over standalone dedicated player/recorders come out.
* Launch titles are not perfect. Big surprise. But a couple of titles are great, as it was then the 360 was released. (History repeats itself, so NO surprise there. Yet some are....)
* Can't wait to get one. If you rather get the HD DVD add-on, great, enjoy! (If Universal stays exclusive, I might get it too, for my HTPC. :))
* Is it worth $599? To me it is, if not for you, well, then don't buy it.

Here is a nice quote from A movie, or rather a B movie. :) Let "little people" be those in the "other" camp from you:

"Why can't we work out our differences? Why can't we work things out? Little people, why can't we all just get along?"

[avs1688]

I am very sorry and sad to say this great forum is being damaged by the silly childish remarks of the same handful of offending members. Personally I do not want to read this crap and if I did I would read trash books.

We come to this forum to get technical information and industry news and since this format war began we get bombarded with worthless trash talk. If you don't have educational information or a honest question to add to the threads please do not post at all. It does not help your position or yourself by posting garbage and if anything it damages your reputation. Lets all take the great mods advice and "take the high road in every post you make"

Please guys grow up and maintain the high quality this forum was built on.

-Robert

I guess as long as MSFT got involved.

Things get ugly.

Have fun !!

[amillians]

Don't know if this is common knowledge by now...

-- GameStop's COO quoted tie rates for the PS3 around 1.5:1, vs. 3:1 for the Wii. Even factoring in the eBay flipper effect, he said the tie was "low" for the PS3, below expectations. They predict that "historical norms" will take hold in time. And please don't flame me if GameStop is some rinky dink outfit not representative of true gaming stats...I don't play games. I watch movies. When my daughter lets me.

-- Taking a page from the MSFT playbook, SCEA is now distancing itself from claiming they would ship 400K units for the NA launch, instead focusing on YE figures: "Our target has always been 1 to 1.2 million shipped by Dec. 31, total," not 400,000 at launch. Pretty much everyone is agreeing that they won't hit that goal, even Hirai, who again noted they hope to ship "upwards of a million" units. SCEA also confirmed that they will NOT be releasing actual sales or shipment figures for the PS3. At least not until they feel like it. Don't expect weekly updates from them...we'll have to get our figures elsewhere.

-- Sigma Designs has effectively accused Toshiba and Microsoft of subsidizing HD DVD, further branding the format's players "proprietary products." VP Kenneth Lowe confirmed 6 design wins for Sigma for Blu-ray (including rebadges) and zero for HD DVD. Sigma is still predicting 200K total unit sales for BD and HD DVD players for 2006. Lowe also dislikes the concept of universal players, noting combo designs would add $200-300 in component costs. Sigma's SMP-8634 will get tweaked in 2007, bootsing MIPS and adding SATA support...current customers are demanding "more software headroom."

-- Samsung has decided after all these years to add its patents to DVD6C. Hmmm....

[BrynRhys]

The company also has shipped its $200 HD DVD drive, which comes packed-in with Peter Jackson’s King Kong title. The add-on drive also plays HD DVD movies on any PC, making it the most affordable HD-DVD player on the market.

Home Media Retailing (http://www.homemediaretailing.com/news/html/breaking_article.cfm?article_id=9961)

Really? I was under the impression that there were significant hoops to jump through and only certain PCs would have the power to use the drive effectively.

[admonish]

-- Sigma Designs has effectively accused Toshiba and Microsoft of subsidizing HD DVD, further branding the format's players "proprietary products." VP Kenneth Lowe confirmed 6 design wins for Sigma for Blu-ray (including rebadges) and zero for HD DVD. Sigma is still predicting 200K total unit sales for BD and HD DVD players for 2006. Lowe also dislikes the concept of universal players, noting combo designs would add $200-300 in component costs. Sigma's SMP-8634 will get tweaked in 2007, bootsing MIPS and adding SATA support...current customers are demanding "more software headroom."...

pardon my ignorance here, but why would Kenneth Lowe EVEN care about what toshiba or microsoft is doing? how does this effect sigma designs?

[scaesare]

Most reviews have also noted that the titles we see today pale in comparison to what we're likely to see once developers have gained some experience with the system. Clearly the PS3 has far more to work with: far higher disc capacity, six-access controllers, mandatory hard drive, phenomenal graphics hardware, open platform. I'm confident by the time production catches up to demand the quality of titles will improve to the point that there will be a clear difference in system capability versus the Xbox 360.

Certainly the PS3 has some exciting hardware. I'm very interested to see what Cell can do when ramped up, and I wonder what the devs will cook up with the extra disk space.

But in all fairness, it's rather widely held that the 360's GPU with it's unified shader architecture and 192 micro-op CPU's that give you 4x AA for "free" is a much more advanced design that PS3's.

And in the context of your post, which is regarding the quality of game titles developed, the development environment for 360 is superior to the PS3's as well. The "openness" of the alternate Linux environment has nothing to do with that. Sony's authoring tools are just propriatary as MS's, and if anything are probably less accessible, given that anybody today can dabble with the free XNA authoring environment they can download from MS.

[BenDover]

Don't know if this is common knowledge by now...

-- GameStop's COO quoted tie rates for the PS3 around 1.5:1, vs. 3:1 for the Wii. Even factoring in the eBay flipper effect, he said the tie was "low" for the PS3, below expectations. They predict that "historical norms" will take hold in time. And please don't flame me if GameStop is some rinky dink outfit not representative of true gaming stats...I don't play games. I watch movies. When my daughter lets me.

-- Taking a page from the MSFT playbook, SCEA is now distancing itself from claiming they would ship 400K units for the NA launch, instead focusing on YE figures: "Our target has always been 1 to 1.2 million shipped by Dec. 31, total," not 400,000 at launch. Pretty much everyone is agreeing that they won't hit that goal, even Hirai, who again noted they hope to ship "upwards of a million" units. SCEA also confirmed that they will NOT be releasing actual sales or shipment figures for the PS3. At least not until they feel like it. Don't expect weekly updates from them...we'll have to get our figures elsewhere.

-- Sigma Designs has effectively accused Toshiba and Microsoft of subsidizing HD DVD, further branding the format's players "proprietary products." VP Kenneth Lowe confirmed 6 design wins for Sigma for Blu-ray (including rebadges) and zero for HD DVD. Sigma is still predicting 200K total unit sales for BD and HD DVD players for 2006. Lowe also dislikes the concept of universal players, noting combo designs would add $200-300 in component costs. Sigma's SMP-8634 will get tweaked in 2007, bootsing MIPS and adding SATA support...current customers are demanding "more software headroom."

-- Samsung has decided after all these years to add its patents to DVD6C. Hmmm....


LOL


i suppose instead of turkey many people will be feasting on crowe...;)

i'm not going to touch the sigma designs item but it does explain the environment a bit ...

[BenDover]

btw, doesn't toshiba act as licensing agent for the 6c pool?

[nataraj]

pardon my ignorance here, but why would Kenneth Lowe EVEN care about what toshiba or microsoft is doing? how does this effect sigma designs?

He doesn't like it that they haven't got any hd dvd design wins.

[nataraj]

-- GameStop's COO quoted tie rates for the PS3 around 1.5:1

That shows a lot of people are buying PS3 for playing movies ! And it has nothing to do with the price of PS3 / lack of good games !! ;)

[mikey p]

I guess as long as MSFT got involved.

Things get ugly.

Have fun !!

They have done this sort of thing for years, but never has it got this bad, IMHO, YMMV. Times change, and not always for the best. ;)

[lymzy]

Sigma Designs has effectively accused Toshiba and Microsoft of subsidizing HD DVD, further branding the format's players "proprietary products."

What does this proprietary products mean?


adding SATA support...current customers are demanding "more software headroom."

More software headroom for Java and SATA for recorders? 6 design wins: Sony, Pio, Panny, Philips, Sharp,LG? Only Samsung is using Broadcom.


-- Samsung has decided after all these years to add its patents to DVD6C. Hmmm....

A sign of double dipping? I am reading too much.

[archibael]

Home Media Retailing (http://www.homemediaretailing.com/news/html/breaking_article.cfm?article_id=9961)

Really? I was under the impression that there were significant hoops to jump through and only certain PCs would have the power to use the drive effectively.

Actually, it looks to be a fairly universal solution, so far. WinDVD and PowerDVD software appear to recognize and work with the drive without effort-- it's the WinDVD and PowerDVD software itself that is limited, at this point, and apparently will be until Q1'07.

[smithfarmer]

I guess the analysts haven't been reading the generally woeful reviews of Microsoft's Zune.

Would you care to add any other non HiDef DVD related news?

[Esox50]

Can someone please explain to me why there is the expectation of BD a/v quality being "better" than HD DVD? Both formats are 1920x1080, use the same codecs, and are alleged to be transparent to the source master.

Is it because BD costs more? Is it because of the advertising slogan "Beyond High Definition"? Is it because some people like to see the "underdog" win?

I really don't get it. Then based on unrealistic expectations, some people act as though BD has murdered their children and that's even more baffling to me.

[archibael]

Can someone please explain to me why there is the expectation of BD a/v quality being "better" than HD DVD? Both formats are 1920x1080, use the same codecs, and are alleged to be transparent to the source master.

Is it because BD costs more? Is it because of the advertising slogan "Beyond High Definition"? Is it because some people like to see the "underdog" win?

I really don't get it. Then based on unrealistic expectations, some people act as though BD has murdered their children and that's even more baffling to me.

It's the cost, mostly. People who have bought into HD DVD are more than thrilled with the PQ they're obtaining, and so the ultimate question for them is, "Why switch to a more expensive solution?"

Typically people switch to something new because it is better or cheaper... and if BD doesn't fulfill either right now, from an HD DVD-fan standpoint, why is it even littering the landscape, preventing "us" from getting titles from Fox, MGM, Disney, and Columbia?

Now you can argue that BD will be a better solution for longer movies with more extras, but at this point that doesn't hold much water for HD DVD folks because there has so far been nothing to illustrate this superiority.

So I don't think it's "unrealistic expectations", per se, just "Why pay more for merely the same quality?" And Sony did not help with the first wave of titles, since the quality was not even up to the level of "the same".

[BrynRhys]

Actually, it looks to be a fairly universal solution, so far..{snip}

Thanks, I'll check into those threads. :)

[BenDover]

Can someone please explain to me why there is the expectation of BD a/v quality being "better" than HD DVD? Both formats are 1920x1080, use the same codecs, and are alleged to be transparent to the source master.

Is it because BD costs more? Is it because of the advertising slogan "Beyond High Definition"? Is it because some people like to see the "underdog" win?

I really don't get it. Then based on unrealistic expectations, some people act as though BD has murdered their children and that's even more baffling to me.

maybe b/c that is all anyone from the bd camp says, that bd is better, that it is the revolutionary technology, that it has 67% more capacity (which should translate into better quality), that it has greater bandwidth (which again should tranlsate into better quality), etc. ... just some of the things off the top of my head that would lead ME to believe that i'm being told it should be better...

[ILJG]

Can someone please explain to me why there is the expectation of BD a/v quality being "better" than HD DVD? Both formats are 1920x1080, use the same codecs, and are alleged to be transparent to the source master.

Is it because BD costs more?


Usually people equate things being more expensive to providing better quality. Is that really such a stretch?



Is it because of the advertising slogan "Beyond High Definition"? Is it because some people like to see the "underdog" win?

I really don't get it. Then based on unrealistic expectations, some people act as though BD has murdered their children and that's even more baffling to me

BD was sold to the studios and the public as being superior because of MORE, MORE, MORE! More storage, more bandwidth, more studio support. They're the victim of their own marketing that set these "unrealistic expectations," not the other way around. If you tell people that more storage, bandwidth, studio support is going to give you a better product, and then charge more for it...it certainly isn't anyone else's fault other than your own for setting those expectations.

[briankmonkey]

don't count on it. there just isn't that much difference between the two systems. in fact, depending upon the technical article of the week, the 360 is the more powerful system. at least john carmack thinks so, and he's a guy who's opinion i value a hell of a lot more than i do yours (no offense)...

actually Talbain, John Carmack said the PS3 is more powerful thouh he prefers the 360's symmetric CPU architecture (probably as it closer to what he is used to working on with PC's)

http://www.next-gen.biz/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1974&Itemid=36


"They are both powerful systems that are going to make excellent game platforms, but I have a bit of a preference for the 360’s symmetric CPU architecture and excellent development tools," he said. "The PS3 will have a bit more peak power, but it will be easier to exploit the available power on the 360. Our next major title is being focused towards simultaneous release on 360, PS3, and PC."

[b2bonez]

Don't know if this is common knowledge by now...

-- GameStop's COO quoted tie rates for the PS3 around 1.5:1, vs. 3:1 for the Wii. Even factoring in the eBay flipper effect, he said the tie was "low" for the PS3, below expectations. They predict that "historical norms" will take hold in time. And please don't flame me if GameStop is some rinky dink outfit not representative of true gaming stats...I don't play games. I watch movies. When my daughter lets me.

-- Taking a page from the MSFT playbook, SCEA is now distancing itself from claiming they would ship 400K units for the NA launch, instead focusing on YE figures: "Our target has always been 1 to 1.2 million shipped by Dec. 31, total," not 400,000 at launch. Pretty much everyone is agreeing that they won't hit that goal, even Hirai, who again noted they hope to ship "upwards of a million" units. SCEA also confirmed that they will NOT be releasing actual sales or shipment figures for the PS3. At least not until they feel like it. Don't expect weekly updates from them...we'll have to get our figures elsewhere.

-- Sigma Designs has effectively accused Toshiba and Microsoft of subsidizing HD DVD, further branding the format's players "proprietary products." VP Kenneth Lowe confirmed 6 design wins for Sigma for Blu-ray (including rebadges) and zero for HD DVD. Sigma is still predicting 200K total unit sales for BD and HD DVD players for 2006. Lowe also dislikes the concept of universal players, noting combo designs would add $200-300 in component costs. Sigma's SMP-8634 will get tweaked in 2007, bootsing MIPS and adding SATA support...current customers are demanding "more software headroom."

-- Samsung has decided after all these years to add its patents to DVD6C. Hmmm....

Well it's not to hard to figure out that below cost players is the only thing keeping HD-DVD afloat and even that isn't attracting massive player sales as evidenced by the 70,000 G1 players not being sold out by now. The whole CE industry went over cliff in lemming fashion with DVD around 2003 and now Toshiba, MS and Hollywood is wanting them to dust themselves off, climb the cliff and do it all over again with HD-DVD.

It's going to be interesting to see if one if the BD partners design a really low budget BD player using a SoC and have that to counter the below cost strategy that Toshiba and MS have for HD-DVD.

b2b

[b2bonez]

More competition for Sigma and Broadcom.

Note: This is IP (blueprints..) that is being sold to potential customers that want to use the design to build chips.
BANGALORE, India, Oct. 31 /-- Ittiam Systems, a leader in providing digital media processing & communication Intellectual Property (IP) solutions, today announced and showcased their High Definition Video Decoder Engine -- MFVDEC (Multi-Format High Definition Video Decoder) IP -- that forms the core of High Definition DVD and Set-Top Box ASIC solutions.

http://news.thomasnet.com/fullstory/497819/rss

b2b

Edit: Can't remember, is this old news ?

[evader45]

Well it's not to hard to figure out that below cost players is the only thing keeping HD-DVD afloat and even that isn't attracting massive player sales as evidenced by the 70,000 G1 players not being sold out by now. The whole CE industry went over cliff in lemming fashion with DVD around 2003 and now Toshiba, MS and Hollywood is wanting them to dust themselves off, climb the cliff and do it all over again with HD-DVD.

It's going to be interesting to see if one if the BD partners design a really low budget BD player using a SoC and have that to counter the below cost strategy that Toshiba and MS have for HD-DVD.

b2b

I think you have things a little backwards.... It's actually a below cost game console that people are hoping will keep BD afloat.

[WayneL]

I think you have things a little backwards.... It's actually a below cost game console that people are hoping will keep BD afloat.
Best point in the whole thread. It ain't HD thats lagging.

[b2bonez]

I think you have things a little backwards.... It's actually a below cost game console that people are hoping will keep BD afloat.

BD seems to "floating" pretty well... ;)
VP Kenneth Lowe confirmed 6 design wins for Sigma for Blu-ray (including rebadges) and zero for HD DVD.

Considering it takes close to a year to bring a fully formed product to market, it would seem that HD-DVDs "no profit" business model isn't going over real well with the CE companies...

b2b

[Esox50]

Usually people equate things being more expensive to providing better quality. Is that really such a stretch?
Oh, I get that (fauly as THAT may be in and of itself). But what I fail to understand is if the HD DVD camp decided to half the price of their initial players (and some would say "subsidize")...why does that equate that BD having to be "better"? The specs didn't suddenly change. Both formats can do 1920x1080 and lossless audio, and we're told are "transparent to the master". So, does BD have to have twice the resolution and "no, it's really lossless audio this time" audio now that Toshiba decided to come out with a $500 player? That makes no sense to me.

Why is the BD camp penalized here for following a traditional product life cycle - pricing formula?


BD was sold to the studios and the public as being superior because of MORE, MORE, MORE! More storage, more bandwidth, more studio support. They're the victim of their own marketing that set these "unrealistic expectations," not the other way around. If you tell people that more storage, bandwidth, studio support is going to give you a better product, and then charge more for it...it certainly isn't anyone else's fault other than your own for setting those expectations.
We're talking about the people here on this forum, not what was sold to the studios. Ok, so the BDA "sold" a bag of goods to the studios. Last I checked, the entire January slate from Disney is on BD50. Seems like there's plenty of "storage" to go around. Did the "more bandwidth" in the BD spec spontaneously disappear recently? And yes, they have more studio support, especailly with Fox having started their releases a week ago. It's looks like all those things are in place now as of 4Q2006, so what's the problem here?

Honestly, I used to think this thing was going to be a draw, but as a person who currently owns neither format, it looks from where I am as if the BDA is winning the 4Q. For the record, i think both camps have disappointed me this 4Q (with delayed players, and only a handful of truly "good" titles). However, it just seems the BDA has made up any lost ground from earlier in the year at this point, and is poised to deliver serious blows to HD DVD into 2007.

I think HD DVD needs a few more players from different manufacturers and some more studio support and FAST, or this thing is slipping away. Just my $0.02.

[roma_victor]

Well it's not to hard to figure out that below cost players is the only thing keeping HD-DVD afloat

I've seen numerous posts from you asserting that HD DVD players (plural) are being subsidized, but not once have I seen you post any evidence or cost analysis showing that the A2 (or even the 360 add on) are "below cost" players. Unless and until there is such evidence or analysis, this is pure speculation.

[b2bonez]

I think HD DVD needs a few more players from different manufacturers and some more studio support and FAST, or this thing is slipping away. Just my $0.02.

One company building HW and three studios does not a "format" make. That is more commonly known as "nice try"... ;)

b2b

[WayneL]

One company building HW and three studios does not a "format" make. That is more commonly known as "nice try"... ;)
Sort of like MS and competing operating system formats?

[archibael]

Oh, I get that (fauly as THAT may be in and of itself). But what I fail to understand is if the HD DVD camp decided to half the price of their initial players (and some would say "subsidize")...why does that equate that BD having to be "better"? The specs didn't suddenly change. Both formats can do 1920x1080 and lossless audio, and we're told are "transparent to the master". So, does BD have to have twice the resolution and "no, it's really lossless audio this time" audio now that Toshiba decided to come out with a $500 player? That makes no sense to me.

Why is the BD camp penalized here for following a traditional product life cycle - pricing formula?


Because consumers have no loyalty to such traditions, and are perfectly happy to accept a new "stupid, profitless CE manufacturer" tradition if it means they get to save some cash and get equivalent quality. It was actually a smooth marketing move on the part of Toshiba, and I am sort of surprised the BD camp didn't counter it with a subsidized player of their own. I can only assume they figured the PS3 would be sufficient in that price range, and didn't count on it being so late.

[Esox50]

Because consumers have no loyalty to such traditions, and are perfectly happy to accept a new "stupid, profitless CE manufacturer" tradition if it means they get to save some cash and get equivalent quality. It was actually a smooth marketing move on the part of Toshiba, and I am sort of surprised the BD camp didn't counter it with a subsidized player of their own. I can only assume they figured the PS3 would be sufficient in that price range, and didn't count on it being so late.
I understand, and agree it was a smooth mkting move. I still don't understand how people post that BD is supposed to be "better" than "high definition", but ok if that's how they feel.

I understand $$$ may be the major issue for a lot of people here. But the specs and deliverables don't suddenly change for one format when the competitor halves it's projected pricing for similar/same specs. And, for some people to act as though the BDA has personally "dissed" them due to a Toshiba price drop is amazing to me, and speaks volumes about many of the posters here.

I wonder how many people who post were here for the DVD rollout in 1997, maybe it's a generational gap. :D

[b2bonez]

Because consumers have no loyalty to such traditions, and are perfectly happy to accept a new "stupid, profitless CE manufacturer" tradition if it means they get to save some cash and get equivalent quality. It was actually a smooth marketing move on the part of Toshiba, and I am sort of surprised the BD camp didn't counter it with a subsidized player of their own. I can only assume they figured the PS3 would be sufficient in that price range, and didn't count on it being so late.

Well if you look at the sales stats for DVD (http://www.thedigitalbits.com/articles/cemadvdsales.html) you can see that it took almost 3 years for DVD to really catch on. DVD was a direct plug compatable replacement for VCR, a HD disc format can't claim that luxury. You are targeting a much smaller potential customer base that has the necessary HD displays and stats show that only around 50% of those people even go to the expense to connect them to a HD source.

So in essence the CE companies are fighting a battle to convince people to not only buy the source of HD on shiny disc, but the very expensive destination of a HD display.

PS3 just happens to be the only product that people will buy that can deliver both a proven product demand and introduce people to a new HD disc format that Hollywood lusts over.

b2b

[2Channel]

Oh, I get that (fauly as THAT may be in and of itself). But what I fail to understand is if the HD DVD camp decided to half the price of their initial players (and some would say "subsidize")...why does that equate that BD having to be "better"? The specs didn't suddenly change. Both formats can do 1920x1080 and lossless audio, and we're told are "transparent to the master". So, does BD have to have twice the resolution and "no, it's really lossless audio this time" audio now that Toshiba decided to come out with a $500 player? That makes no sense to me.

Why is the BD camp penalized here for following a traditional product life cycle - pricing formula?

We're talking about the people here on this forum, not what was sold to the studios. Ok, so the BDA "sold" a bag of goods to the studios. Last I checked, the entire January slate from Disney is on BD50. Seems like there's plenty of "storage" to go around. Did the "more bandwidth" in the BD spec spontaneously disappear recently? And yes, they have more studio support, especailly with Fox having started their releases a week ago. It's looks like all those things are in place now as of 4Q2006, so what's the problem here?

Honestly, I used to think this thing was going to be a draw, but as a person who currently owns neither format, it looks from where I am as if the BDA is winning the 4Q. For the record, i think both camps have disappointed me this 4Q (with delayed players, and only a handful of truly "good" titles). However, it just seems the BDA has made up any lost ground from earlier in the year at this point, and is poised to deliver serious blows to HD DVD into 2007.

I think HD DVD needs a few more players from different manufacturers and some more studio support and FAST, or this thing is slipping away. Just my $0.02.

The fundamental issue is that while these formats have options/ability to provide lossless audio, they do not provide lossless video compression. The link below should be helpful.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_codecs#Video_codecs

Mpeg2, Mpeg4, VC-1 are all lossy compression codecs. "Transparency to the Master" is marketing. The better the encoding the closer you'll get, but it's not the master. Some factors involved are

1. the skill of the people doing the encoding
2. the quality of the codec
3. the storage space/bandwidth available for the encoding.

(if I've missed any I hope people will correct me)

The majority of HD-DVD titles are VC-1, the majority of BD titles are Mpeg2.

HD-DVD supporters (like myself) say that VC-1 is a great codec and has shown that it can deliver great results even though the storage density and bandwidth on HD-DVD is lower than BD.

BD supporters...well they've made their position clear on the subject.

So after BD was positioned as the best there is, should we expect it to live up to the promise? Or do we just right that off as marketing?

[b2bonez]

I've seen numerous posts from you asserting that HD DVD players (plural) are being subsidized, but not once have I seen you post any evidence or cost analysis showing that the A2 (or even the 360 add on) are "below cost" players. Unless and until there is such evidence or analysis, this is pure speculation.

Well maybe the A2 will get here before the end of the year and iSuppli will do a cost breakdown like they did on the A1. If you think that the Xbox addon selling for $199 if a real profit maker then have at it. ;)

But it's not only a drive, it has something like 192meg of static memory, comes with a remote control and free copy of KK. Considering that retailers like to make profit on the products they sell, a 30% markup would put the wholesale at around $150.00. In total dollars that's just not much room for profit when blue lasers have been quoted to sell for around $80 just for the diode.

b2b

[roma_victor]

Well maybe the A2 will get here before the end of the year and iSuppli will do a cost breakdown like they did on the A1.

As you point out, the A2 has yet to be released, and to assert that a not-yet-released product is subsidized is the very definition of speculation.

Unless and until iSuppli (or another entity) does a cost breakdown that reasonably shows the costs of the A2, please do not assert the subsidy as though it's a fact.

[roma_victor]

If you think that the Xbox addon selling for $199 if a real profit maker then have at it. ;)
But it's not only a drive, it has something like 192meg of static memory, comes with a remote control and free copy of KK. Considering that retailers like to make profit on the products they sell, a 30% markup would put the wholesale at around $150.00. In total dollars that's just not much room for profit when blue lasers have been quoted to sell for around $80 just for the diode.


"Not much room for profit" is not the same as being below cost, and the free copy of KK is only a short time promotion.

Again, unless and until iSuppli or some other entity does a credible analysis of the costs of the 360 add on, please do not assert that it is a "below cost" player as though it is fact. It is fine to speculate about it, as long as it is acknowledged as speculation.

[ILJG]

Oh, I get that (fauly as THAT may be in and of itself). But what I fail to understand is if the HD DVD camp decided to half the price of their initial players (and some would say "subsidize")...why does that equate that BD having to be "better"? The specs didn't suddenly change. Both formats can do 1920x1080 and lossless audio, and we're told are "transparent to the master". So, does BD have to have twice the resolution and "no, it's really lossless audio this time" audio now that Toshiba decided to come out with a $500 player? That makes no sense to me.

Why is the BD camp penalized here for following a traditional product life cycle - pricing formula?

Penalized? You mean people opting not to buy them? You mean people supporting a different format? Not sure how those qualify as "penalization." People can buy, or not buy, what they choose. Whether you agree or disagree with anyone's reasoning as to why they purchase and support a format and not the other has nothing to do with a format being "penalized." It's not as though there are government barriers to either, or unfair business practices going on, trust me, these companies would be in court faster than the blink of an eye if that were the case. People doing what they always do in a free market (buying what they want, not buying what they don't) is hardly a "penalty."


We're talking about the people here on this forum, not what was sold to the studios.

And the people here on this forum were offered HD-DVD players at half the price of BD players. if you're going to argue that "people here" shouldn't care what was offered to the studios, then the "people here" shouldn't care about what you, or anyone else, deems a "natural product cycle," either. If they shouldn't care about a company's marketing to studios, they shouldn't have to care about another's pricing, if the argument is going to be that "it's only what the people here can see."


Ok, so the BDA "sold" a bag of goods to the studios. Last I checked, the entire January slate from Disney is on BD50. Seems like there's plenty of "storage" to go around.

If you think because of these announcements that BD50 is now the norm and the majority, and BD25 no longer is, you're either being disingenuous or you just don't know the numbers. By far, most titles are still BD25. You're equally naive, or still disingenuous, if you believe the studios were told that BD25 would be the norm, and BD50 the exception.

But this wasn't your point. Your point was "why are expectations so high and unfair for BD?" This is one of the reasons. They got people and studios to expect BD50 to be the norm. It still isn't. Their touting of storage superiority hasn't come to pass. The vast majority of their titles are still BD25, and the few BD50 titles, with all their storage "superiority" don't look or sound any better than HD-DVD 30's, and don't offer as much interactivity.

Did the "more bandwidth" in the BD spec spontaneously disappear recently? And yes, they have more studio support, especailly with Fox having started their releases a week ago. It's looks like all those things are in place now as of 4Q2006, so what's the problem here?

It sounds like you want to ask the question, but not listen to the answer. Your original question was:

Can someone please explain to me why there is the expectation of BD a/v quality being "better" than HD DVD?


More bandwidth didn't go away, neither did BD50, neither did "more studios." The truth of the matter is, that more bandwidth is still there, BD50 is trickling in (even if not honestly represented initially) and more studio support is still there, although some articles allude to the fact that the stuios have felt duped by BD. With all of these bullet points above, why is it so difficult for someone to expect better quality with these things? Would you expect COMPARABLE OR LESS PQ/AQ with more storage and bandwidth? Would you expect COMPARABLE OR LESS interactivity with more storage or bandwidth? I'm guessing not, unless you're really illogical or just deliberately trying to be obtuse.

The fact of the matter is that with all this "superiority" the titles as a whole don't look or sound any better, and still, there aren't as many of them even though there are more studios, and they're still lagging in interactivity (not just the software's fault, but still a combination of things within the format).



Honestly, I used to think this thing was going to be a draw, but as a person who currently owns neither format, it looks from where I am as if the BDA is winning the 4Q.

When there are fewer titles, and at best, BD is only sometimes comparable to HD-DVD PQ, and has less interactivity, and significantly higher priced stand-alone players, and a console that's next to impossible to get hold of...you think BD is winning Q4?

Wow. If that's what you truly believe, you really are either naive or disingenuous.

[rdjam]

Check this out - Samsung Joins DVD6C Licensing in Licensing DVD Patents

http://www.newswire.ca/en/releases/archive/November2006/20/c6828.html

I'm assuming this includes those applicable to HD DVD?

Could they be dotting their "i"s before their HD DVD excursion, perhaps?

[b2bonez]

The fundamental issue is that while these formats have options/ability to provide lossless audio, they do not provide lossless video compression. The link below should be helpful.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_codecs#Video_codecs

Mpeg2, Mpeg4, VC-1 are all lossy compression codecs. "Transparency to the Master" is marketing. The better the encoding the closer you'll get, but it's not the master. Some factors involved are

1. the skill of the people doing the encoding
2. the quality of the codec
3. the storage space/bandwidth available for the encoding.

(if I've missed any I hope people will correct me)

The majority of HD-DVD titles are VC-1, the majority of BD titles are Mpeg2.

HD-DVD supporters (like myself) say that VC-1 is a great codec and has shown that it can deliver great results even though the storage density and bandwidth on HD-DVD is lower than BD.

BD supporters...well they've made their position clear on the subject.

So after BD was positioned as the best there is, should we expect it to live up to the promise? Or do we just right that off as marketing?

Well you left out the biggest factor of all.

4. Quality of the master source.

As much as people want to point to codecs and quality of encoding, the master is the controlling factor in all of these discussions.

Films and their masters are much like a bag of apples and while they are all the same fruit, once you look closely at each one they all vary in size, smoothness in skin and have differing shapes and contours. The only thing a encoder can do is to seek to insure that what you started out with gets delivered at the end of the chain, without bumps, bruises and rotten fruit. But sometimes no matter what the process is, a bad apple is going to end up in the bag. ;)

b2b

[2Channel]

Would you expect Warner and Universal releases to look worse if they had been releasing for Blu-ray instead of HD DVD? If not, why wouldn't we see the same differences between their stuff and Sony's stuff that we have seen? It is possible that Warner would not have had a "spend whatever it takes to make it look its best" attitude if they hadn't mostly been on the underdog side in a format war though.

--Darin

I'm begining to think that the fact the two formats came to market actually caused those with a stake in a given format to work harder to release better product. I believe that this in turn has caused most studios to try to raise the bar.

It's all personal opinion though, so take it for what it's worth.

[2Channel]

Well you left out the biggest factor of all.

4. Quality of the master source.

As much as people want to point to codecs and quality of encoding, the master is the controlling factor in all of these discussions.

Films and their masters are much like a bag of apples and while they are all the same fruit, once you look closely at each one they all vary in size, smoothness in skin and have differing shapes and contours. The only thing a encoder can do is to seek to insure that what you started out with gets delivered at the end of the chain, without bumps, bruises and rotten fruit. But sometimes no matter what the process is, a bad apple is going to end up in the bag. ;)

b2b

Thanks b2b. I knew I was missing something. Too busy this morning....

[BenDover]

is the free copy of TN bundled with the PS3 for a limited time included in the PS3 price breakdown...?

[b2bonez]

As you point out, the A2 has yet to be released, and to assert that a not-yet-released product is subsidized is the very definition of speculation.

Unless and until iSuppli (or another entity) does a cost breakdown that reasonably shows the costs of the A2, please do not assert the subsidy as though it's a fact.

Well you are saying that I said something about the A2, which I did not.
Originally Posted by b2bonez
Well it's not to hard to figure out that below cost players is the only thing keeping HD-DVD afloat
It seems that you are speculating more about the possibility of the subsidization of the A2 more than me...

The A2 can't float anything until it gets here.. ;)

b2b

[kjack]

In reality, both formats are still at the Model T stage. 1-2 years from now is when you'll start seeing the fullest capabilities each format has to offer.

I have to disagree with the statement about Warner though -- they are extremely caring about what you, the viewer, experience when you watch one of their movies. Very creative also... :)

[b2bonez]

I'm binging to think that the fact the two formats came to market actually caused those with a stake in a given format to work harder to release better product. I believe that this in turn has caused most studios to try to raise the bar.

It's all personal opinion though, so take it for what it's worth.

Case in point is "North by Northwest". When Lowry did the scan and restore for this film they came up to an unusual point in the film, the airplane/highway crash scene, where stunt cables connected to the airplane were clearly visible in the scan. Those cables had to be removed from the final print. That highlights that today with modern scanning and post production processes that what we have today is even better than what was shown in theaters when the movies were originally released.

Being hyper-critical of PQ is almost self-defeating when none of these films were ever "perfect" in PQ in the first place.

b2b

[b2bonez]

In reality, both formats are still at the Model T stage. 1-2 years from now is when you'll start seeing the fullest capabilities each format has to offer.

I have to disagree with the statement about Warner though -- they are extremely caring about what you, the viewer, experience when you watch one of their movies. Very creative also... :)

Funny you should mention that. At least with HD-DVD you can get any color you want.... Just so long as it's Toshiba's "black". ;)

b2b

[nataraj]

I still don't understand how people post that BD is supposed to be "better" than "high definition", but ok if that's how they feel.

Well BD is supposed to be "beyond" high definition :p

Anyway, the idea is that people don't see any reason to support a format which is no better but twice the price. Is that hard to understand ?

[roma_victor]

Well you are saying that I said something about the A2, which I did not.

Beg your pardon, but you did exactly that in this previous post:

Originally Posted by b2bonez
By subsidizing the A1 and A2, they have wielded a sword with two edges.

found on this thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8855958#post8855958

Again, you stated this as though it's a fact. Please back it up with evidence or admit that it is nothing but pure speculation at this point.

[talbain]

actually Talbain, John Carmack said the PS3 is more powerful thouh he prefers the 360's symmetric CPU architecture (probably as it closer to what he is used to working on with PC's)

http://www.next-gen.biz/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1974&Itemid=36


yeah, except i've been hearing that from alot of developers...

also, there's no doubt that the 360's gpu is more powerful. if not for the cell there wouldn't even be a debate here...

[2Channel]

yeah, except i've been hearing that from alot of developers...

also, there's no doubt that the 360's gpu is more powerful. if not for the cell there wouldn't even be a debate here...

Thanks for the the heads up on this article. Here's the full interview.

http://popcultureshock.com/features.php?id=1248

And here's the intro to the interview.

John Carmack is one of the videogaming industry's elite icons. Credited with originating the first person genre of games, gaming would not be where it is today without this programmer. Not only does each game he releases redefine the genre in some way, but the technology behind it shapes the evolution of videogame graphics and sound in each generation. Even if you don't play his games, you'll be hard pressed to not feel the influence of them as the ideas and elements introduced in each one of his engines are used and adapted in some way industry-wide. As such, few can say they've affected the gaming scene as much as he has and the company he keeps in that respect is small. We recently had a chance to ask Mr. Carmack a few questions on a number of topics. If you want to know why he prefers the Xbox 360 to the PS3, what id's next projects are, what he thinks of the next generation of mobile graphics and more then read on as one of the greatest minds in videogames speaks.

[b2bonez]

Beg your pardon, but you did exactly that in this previous post:

Originally Posted by b2bonez
By subsidizing the A1 and A2, they have wielded a sword with two edges.

found on this thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8855958#post8855958

Again, you stated this as though it's a fact. Please back it up with evidence or admit that it is nothing but pure speculation at this point.

Well I guess you got me.. :) Speculating that the A2 is subsidized is a bit more of a stretch than the A1. They did leave out all of the fancy analog processing and kept the price the same. So you win, I guess we will see whenever the A2 get here... ;)

b2b

[Kosty]

Penalized? You mean people opting not to buy them? You mean people supporting a different format? Not sure how those qualify as "penalization." People can buy, or not buy, what they choose. Whether you agree or disagree with anyone's reasoning as to why they purchase and support a format and not the other has nothing to do with a format being "penalized." It's not as though there are government barriers to either, or unfair business practices going on, trust me, these companies would be in court faster than the blink of an eye if that were the case. People doing what they always do in a free market (buying what they want, not buying what they don't) is hardly a "penalty."

And the people here on this forum were offered HD-DVD players at half the price of BD players. if you're going to argue that "people here" shouldn't care what was offered to the studios, then the "people here" shouldn't care about what you, or anyone else, deems a "natural product cycle," either. If they shouldn't care about a company's marketing to studios, they shouldn't have to care about another's pricing, if the argument is going to be that "it's only what the people here can see."

If you think because of these announcements that BD50 is now the norm and the majority, and BD25 no longer is, you're either being disingenuous or you just don't know the numbers. By far, most titles are still BD25. You're equally naive, or still disingenuous, if you believe the studios were told that BD25 would be the norm, and BD50 the exception.

But this wasn't your point. Your point was "why are expectations so high and unfair for BD?" This is one of the reasons. They got people and studios to expect BD50 to be the norm. It still isn't. Their touting of storage superiority hasn't come to pass. The vast majority of their titles are still BD25, and the few BD50 titles, with all their storage "superiority" don't look or sound any better than HD-DVD 30's, and don't offer as much interactivity.

It sounds like you want to ask the question, but not listen to the answer. Your original question was:
More bandwidth didn't go away, neither did BD50, neither did "more studios." The truth of the matter is, that more bandwidth is still there, BD50 is trickling in (even if not honestly represented initially) and more studio support is still there, although some articles allude to the fact that the stuios have felt duped by BD. With all of these bullet points above, why is it so difficult for someone to expect better quality with these things? Would you expect COMPARABLE OR LESS PQ/AQ with more storage and bandwidth? Would you expect COMPARABLE OR LESS interactivity with more storage or bandwidth? I'm guessing not, unless you're really illogical or just deliberately trying to be obtuse.

The fact of the matter is that with all this "superiority" the titles as a whole don't look or sound any better, and still, there aren't as many of them even though there are more studios, and they're still lagging in interactivity (not just the software's fault, but still a combination of things within the format).

When there are fewer titles, and at best, BD is only sometimes comparable to HD-DVD PQ, and has less interactivity, and significantly higher priced stand-alone players, and a console that's next to impossible to get hold of...you think BD is winning Q4?

Wow. If that's what you truly believe, you really are either naive or disingenuous. The BDA raised expectations for Blu-ray in an attempt to kill HD DVD before it started. Now that the first Blu-ray player, the first Blu-ray movies, the first dual layer title, the PS3 have all failed to initially deliver on the hype as providing superior HD and in doing so costing more than HD DVD, no wonder studios, analysts, pundits, mainstream press reports and consumers are showing some signs of backlash.

To date, Blu-ray has over-promised and under-delivered. HD DVD has done the opposite.

Those criticisms of Blu-ray will continue and even accelerate as long as the performance doesn't match the hype. PR and spin alone cannot help the PS3 and the Blu-ray format, improved software and consistently high standards in new hardware releases and content that meet the standards that HD DVD has set can stop the bleeding.

The press and the studios are naturally biased toward Blu-ray at the point still, but Sony and the other Blu-ray supporters have to stop acting and sounding stupid and start delivering on their promises or being naturally will start feeling burned now that they actually have something to evaluate and it is below their expectations.

[roma_victor]

Well I guess you got me.. :) Speculating that the A2 is subsidized is a bit more of a stretch than the A1. They did leave out all of the fancy analog processing and kept the price the same. So you win, I guess we will see whenever the A2 get here... ;)

b2b

My point is not to win.
I actually agree with you that it would be bad for HD DVD if no other CE manufacturer can profitably make HD DVD players that are competitively priced with Toshiba's players.
What I don't agree with is your assumption that this is in fact the case because Toshiba's subsidy is continuing with the A2.
My point simply is that the burden is on those who think that the A2 is in fact a "below cost" player to prove that, and until and unless there is evidence for the subsidy such claims should not be made.

Peace?

[chefboy1]

Anyway, the idea is that people don't see any reason to support a format which is no better but twice the price. Is that hard to understand ?

With the recent release of the PS3, do you agree that there is no longer a price difference between each format? The 6 months HD-DVD enjoyed as the cheapest HD player certainly helped the format's acceptance, but going forward that argument does not exist.

Now we can focus on other aspects of the two formats beyond price. Personally, I'm still looking at studio support as the primary decision factor, as I care more about films than the technology delivery method. And right now, it appears Blu Ray is closest in being able to give me full access to all the movies in HD.

[crussader]

With the recent release of the PS3, do you agree that there is no longer a price difference between each format?

I don't agree. There are plenty of us that have no interest in adding a game console to our equipment racks to get HiDef optical.

Personally, I'm still looking at studio support as the primary decision factor, as I care more about films than the technology delivery method. And right now, it appears Blu Ray is closest in being able to give me full access to all the movies in HD.

The format that wins will get 100% of studio support.

As for current studio support, although BD has a greater number of studios in its camp, one shouldn't forget how massive the Universal library is.

[nilsp]

As for current studio support, although BD has a greater number of studios in its camp, one shouldn't forget how massive the Universal library is.

Well... Universal vs. Disney, Miramax, Dimension, Touchstone, Lionsgate, MGM, Columbia TriStar, Twentieth Century Fox.

They may have a massive library, but if I had to choose...

[roma_victor]

As for current studio support, although BD has a greater number of studios in its camp, one shouldn't forget how massive the Universal library is.

One should not simply count the number of studios supporting each format, as "support" is not equal among studios.
Universal has been very aggressive in supporting HD DVD and has put out a large number of good quality titles, and Fox has done a good job recently in supporting BD.
Disney has not released a lot on BD. Weinstein has not released any HD DVDs yet, but will do so next month. Ironically, Sony has been the worst in terms of its support of BD.

As for the two major "neutral" studios, Paramount has been truly neutral in releasing the same movies at the same time on both formats. WB, on the other hand is technically neutral but has in reality favored HD DVD so far both in releasing certain movies in HD DVD prior to BD (e.g. Batman Begins, V for Vendetta has not been announced for BD), and putting better/more extras on the HD DVD versions.

[markrubin]

Peace

may I propose an AVS Cease Fire in the format battles in celebration of Thanksgiving

this should be a celebration of Thanks for many things including the HD optical disc, regardless of the format battle

:)

[amillians]

To date, Blu-ray has over-promised and under-delivered. HD DVD has done the opposite.Well, that's not really fair. Both have overpromised to date.

HD DVD promised Pluto and reached the moon.

Blu-rya promised Alpha Centauri and reached low earth orbit.

[Kosty]

Peace

may I propose an AVS Cease Fire in the format battles in celebration of Thanksgiving

this should be a celebration of Thanks for many things including the HD optical disc, regardless of the format battle

:)I for one am happy of all the HD goodness I will watch this weekend, including my beloved Broncos on Thanksgiving day and all the new HD DVD movies I will watch before Monday.

I am also thankful for all you fellow AVS posters, lurkers and other members who have helped me understand this world of the new HD formats and have helped improve the HD world that we live in today.

Best wishes to all and your loved ones during this holiday weekend. :) :) :)

[roma_victor]

Peace

may I propose an AVS Cease Fire in the format battles in celebration of Thanksgiving

this should be a celebration of Thanks for many things including the HD optical disc, regardless of the format battle

:)

I agree. I have a follow-up proposal. In the spirit of the holidays, I propose that supporters of one format post something positive about the other format (without any sarcasm).
:)

As a HD DVD supporter, I'll start first and get things rolling:

I am very impressed with recent exclusive BD releases, especially from Fox. Titles such as BHD, KoH, Transporter, X3, Ice Age 2 and upcoming releases such as Pearl Harbor are either great films or at least great eye candy, and it is getting harder for me to resist buying a BD player or PS3.

Anyone else want to participate?

[nilsp]

One should not simply count the number of studios supporting each format, as "support" is not equal among studios.
Universal has been very aggressive in supporting HD DVD and has put out a large number of good quality titles, and Fox has done a good job recently in supporting BD.
Disney has not released a lot on BD. Weinstein has not released any HD DVDs yet, but will do so next month. Ironically, Sony has been the worst in terms of its support of BD.

As for the two major "neutral" studios, Paramount has been truly neutral in releasing the same movies at the same time on both formats. WB, on the other hand is technically neutral but has in reality favored HD DVD so far both in releasing certain movies in HD DVD prior to BD (e.g. Batman Begins, V for Vendetta has not been announced for BD), and putting better/more extras on the HD DVD versions.

Well, true, the truth is in the pudding*.

But just for fun, I looked up http://dvdlist.kazart.com/AFI_on_DVD.php3?page=1. Went through the list quickly. Roughly of the AFI 100 list 13 are Universal titles, 35 are Fox/Col/MGM titles. Clearly there having more studios is better than having one studio with many titles. But again, saying and doing are two very different things.

*) Pudding = actual released discs.

[Kosty]

I am glad that the dual layer releases are starting to show up and that may encourage other studios to release high quality movies on Blu-ray.

I also am glad that the picture quality on Blu-ray titles is starting to steadily improve and that VC-1 or MPEG-2 on DL50 discs may improve Blu-ray image quality.

Since both formats will probably survive, I want the best HD quality to be out there on every HD shiny disc.

[markrubin]

In the spirit of the holidays, I propose that supporters of one format post something positive about the other format (without any sarcasm).



Anyone else want to participate?

I was an early adopter of HD DVD and rent/buy every HD DVD disc available:

what I like most about BD is the titles exclusive to the Blu-Ray format: I preordered a Sony BD player and look forward to checking it out

still I wish there was a single format

[Esox50]

Well BD is supposed to be "beyond" high definition :p
Ha! You caught me alluding to this in my initial post. ;)

Anyway, the idea is that people don't see any reason to support a format which is no better but twice the price. Is that hard to understand ?
Well, let's face it though, "better" is defined by each person. To some people, more content is "better". To others, players that are actually responsive is "better". The list could go on and on. So, I don't buy the blanket statement that BD should deliver "more" because it costs twice as much (if you exclude the PS3). Right now, for some people it does deliver "more" content, more players, and more disc space?!?!?!? Is that better? The point is that both formats are capable of delivering 1920x1080 w/ lossless audio and added value content.

Here's a novel idea for everyone here... Discard all the garbage propoganda you read here, discard all the un-named sources in online articles, discard all the hearsay and bickering, and just take a step back. Neither HD DVD or BD "did" anything to anybody here. Go see the formats at the stores or at your families/friends houses. Judge the value proposition of each to you personally and don't worry about what anyone else says or heard. I suspect you'll see the light, and get back to being an A/V enthusiast and lover of movies in your home.

[crussader]

From where I sit, the biggest advantage that BD has is the bandwidth issue. That is the one thing I wish HD had a better answer for.

[kjack]

Well, let's face it though, "better" is defined by each person.And that definition will change over time.

[kjack]

Blu-ray vs. HD DVD: Knocking each other out?

In one corner are Sony, most movie studios and a number of consumer electronics makers pitching a technology called Blu-ray. In the other corner, with the HD DVD format, sit Microsoft and Intel along with their allied studios and consumer products companies. Both formats provide larger storage capacity than the current generation of DVDs and can store high-definition full-length movies. And both sides are well funded and unlikely to cave in. In the middle are a few consumer electronics makers hoping to create players that can play both formats at a reasonable cost.


http://news.com.com/Blu-ray+vs.+HD+DVD+Knocking+each+other+out/2030-1069_3-6137359.html?tag=nefd.top

[MikeZ1998]

In one corner are Sony, most movie studios and a number of consumer electronics makers pitching a technology called Blu-ray.
I don’t think so.
Most movie studios, a lot of indies and foreign distributors, are in the HD DVD camp => more HD DVDs available than BDs.

[b2bonez]

I don’t think so.
Most movie studios, a lot of indies and foreign distributors, are in the HD DVD camp => more HD DVDs available than BDs.

Bzzzt.. Wrong answer... Of the major studios HD-DVD has... Universal (HD-DVD only), Warner and Paramount (both HD-DVD & BluRay)

b2b

[kjack]

Since Sigma's statements surrounding the marketing of HD-DVD and Blu-ray players have been taken out of context, we would like to clear-up the confusion regarding our position.

Sigma provides media processor components that can be used in either Blu-ray or HD-DVD players and are working with a large number of consumer electronics manufacturers to bring products to market. However, we believe that consumers and the majority of the industry will be best served by the widespread support of a single standard and not universal players, which has become a notable topic recently.

Both standards provide excellent video quality - both support the same video codecs and mostly identical output formats, so the viewing experience is almost purely dependent on the quality of encoded content. Both standards provide adequate capacity for storing full-length HD movies (although Blu-ray currently offers greater storage and bitrates for increased interactivity and alternative track features). Both standards have about 100 titles currently available to seed their use and gain early adopters. Bottom line - the growth of either standard would bring us into the next generation of high definition video players with a far richer front-of-screen experience, and there is virtually no installed base of content to warrant universal support at this time.

So, what's needed to propel the market forward and convert mainstream DVD consumers to high definition? Simple - consumer confidence in the "right player", vastly more content, and lower prices.

What happens if we move down the path toward promoting and delivering universal players?

The "right universal players" will not likely show up on the market until the Christmas 2007 selling season ... the ability to produce universal players will be limited by the commercialization of new dual-format drives and the successful development of player software that flawlessly supports navigation and disc swapping between the two formats. Until then, consumers will remain confident that the "right player" doesn't yet exist.

Vastly more content would also not show up on the market until late next year ... until it is evident that there will be a substantial number of players to sell content for, the studios (and selling channels) will be reluctant to commit huge amounts of resource in the production and merchandizing of new content.

Lower universal player prices would not show up until the Christmas 2008 selling season … the creation of universal players would add substantial unit costs, including the dual-format drives, increased memory requirements, and nearly doubling the substantial royalties so that both standards get paid for their intellectual property. It will take another year beyond the first players to see cost and price reductions that enable real mainstream purchases to take place.

Moving forward, we have indicated that since the Blu-ray camp has attracted an overwhelming amount of consumer manufacturer support, the HD-DVD camp is under extreme pressure to establish a strong enough beachhead so they cannot be dislodged. At this time, Toshiba and Microsoft are the primary proponents behind HD-DVD, and the initial $499 player appeared to be subsidized by Toshiba to establish a higher level of initial demand. This in itself is not a bad thing, but is an indication that without real cost reductions from a larger industry infrastructure, and very high volumes, it will be difficult for player prices to move substantially downward from there.

[Talkstr8t]

pardon my ignorance here, but why would Kenneth Lowe EVEN care about what toshiba or microsoft is doing? how does this effect sigma designs?Because Toshiba and Microsoft propping up a format which has been rejected by the rest of the industry greatly impedes adoption of any next-generation format by consumers. Even if Sigma had just as many HD-DVD design wins as Blu-ray they would still be seeing far lower sales due to the format war.

[Talkstr8t]

Check this out - Samsung Joins DVD6C Licensing in Licensing DVD Patents

http://www.newswire.ca/en/releases/archive/November2006/20/c6828.html

I'm assuming this includes those applicable to HD DVD?

Could they be dotting their "i"s before their HD DVD excursion, perhaps?This just means rather than attempting to negotiate individual patent agreements with each manufacturer, they'll take their share of the whole pool. It ensures they are paid their due from the HD-DVD camp.

[Kosty]

http://www.thedigitalbits.com/articles/robertharris/harris112106.html

Having dealt with any number of online "stores," it always comes as a pleasant surprise when you find someone offering quality goods at extremely fair prices - that actually does more than send along an order to a fulfillment house and reap a quick reward in the form of a commission... had gone in the hope of securing the new Panasonic Blu-ray player, and my wishes were met, not only with a unit in stock, but with a price that surprised me.

Mr. Zohn knows his stuff. With a background of decades in the broadcast industry, he is a face known to those who frequent CEDIA and other conferences that are the mainstay of the industryCongrats for Robert at Value Electronics ( DTV Tivo Dealer here at AVS) to get a real positive mention from no less than Robert A Harris at the digital bits site for a pleasant experience selling him a Blu-ray player no less.

Whether you agree with his posts or not, its nice to have someone with practical experience selling this stuff around here.

[Talkstr8t]

WB, on the other hand is technically neutral but has in reality favored HD DVD so far both in releasing certain movies in HD DVD prior to BD (e.g. Batman Begins, V for Vendetta has not been announced for BD), and putting better/more extras on the HD DVD versions.The fact certain titles have been released on HD-DVD and not on Blu-ray does not reflect a preference for one format over the other. There are other considerations at play...

[AnthonyP]

I've seen numerous posts from you asserting that HD DVD players (plural) are being subsidized, but not once have I seen you post any evidence or cost analysis showing that the A2 (or even the 360 add on) are "below cost" players. Unless and until there is such evidence or analysis, this is pure speculation.
roma_victor: consider it is very old news and everyone knows it, why not just use search. People can't repeat everything that has been said over the past two years

[Kosty]

Because Toshiba and Microsoft propping up a format which has been rejected by the rest of the industry greatly impedes adoption of any next-generation format by consumers. Even if Sigma had just as many HD-DVD design wins as Blu-ray they would still be seeing far lower sales due to the format war. Many consumers like me are now enjoying high quality HD movies now on my less expensive HD DVD player and appreciate Microsoft and Toshiba "propping up" a format by giving currently giving me a better value the twice as more expensive Blu-ray players.

HD DVD does not seem to be rejected by consumers.

That fact may be eventually noticed by other manufacturers as more blue laser diodes become available and by studios as HD DVD disc sales increase.

You don't seem to be a big fan of consumer choice and competition.

[Kosty]

I've seen numerous posts from you asserting that HD DVD players (plural) are being subsidized, but not once have I seen you post any evidence or cost analysis showing that the A2 (or even the 360 add on) are "below cost" players. Unless and until there is such evidence or analysis, this is pure speculation. roma_victor: consider it is very old news and everyone knows it, why not just use search. People can't repeat everything that has been said over the past two years That is inaccurate.

iSuppli did the breakdown on the 1st generation players, most of us have agreed that the first generation players were sold before before cost.

http://www.digitaltvdesignline.com/products/189600999

But the second generation HD DVD players are another matter.

iSuppli has not said anything on the 2nd generation players. At Cedia several sources indicated to me that the costs on the HD A2 and HD E2 were considerably reduced and that they were probably going to break even if not make a small profit and that the higher priced HD XA2 and HD XE2 were going to be making money for Toshiba.

[What'sHD]

It's the cost, mostly. People who have bought into HD DVD are more than thrilled with the PQ they're obtaining, and so the ultimate question for them is, "Why switch to a more expensive solution?"

Typically people switch to something new because it is better or cheaper... and if BD doesn't fulfill either right now, from an HD DVD-fan standpoint, why is it even littering the landscape, preventing "us" from getting titles from Fox, MGM, Disney, and Columbia?

Now you can argue that BD will be a better solution for longer movies with more extras, but at this point that doesn't hold much water for HD DVD folks because there has so far been nothing to illustrate this superiority.

So I don't think it's "unrealistic expectations", per se, just "Why pay more for merely the same quality?" And Sony did not help with the first wave of titles, since the quality was not even up to the level of "the same".
If one defines the format only in technical terms, one appreciates their viewpoint.

But, the way this format war is defined includes Studio Support as a "feature" of the format.

To ignore that and say that situation Will change cos its not cast in stone is fine, but similarly, prices of BD will also change, imo. They aren't exactly cast in stone either.

And there is the 500 buck PS3 for movies and SACD.. my 2c

[Esox50]

At Cedia several sources indicated to me that the costs on the HD A2 and HD E2 were considerably reduced and that they were probably going to break even if not make a small profit and that the higher priced HD XA2 and HD XE2 were going to be making money for Toshiba.
Anyone have any reasonable or "decent" data to suggest the ratio of sales between the 1G A1 vs. the 1G XA1?

[mikemorel]

But, the way this format war is defined includes Studio Support as a "feature" of the format.Such a "feature" seems from an HD DVD supporters viewpoint to place studios and CE makers in front of consumers; to relegate the consumer to "the back of the bus" so to speak.

To ignore that and say that situation Will change cos its not cast in stone is fine, but similarly, prices of BD will also change, imo. They aren't exactly cast in stone either.And neither are HD-DVD prices cast in stone. They will similarly drop.

And there is the 500 buck PS3 for movies and SACD.. my 2cLast I looked on EBay it was over $1,000, and is "used goods" AFAIK. If I have to camp out in line for 3 days, risking life and limb to get one for $500, then it might as well not exist at that price point, for me anyway. YMMV.

[What'sHD]

Ha! You caught me alluding to this in my initial post. ;)


Well, let's face it though, "better" is defined by each person. To some people, more content is "better". To others, players that are actually responsive is "better". The list could go on and on. So, I don't buy the blanket statement that BD should deliver "more" because it costs twice as much (if you exclude the PS3). Right now, for some people it does deliver "more" content, more players, and more disc space?!?!?!? Is that better? The point is that both formats are capable of delivering 1920x1080 w/ lossless audio and added value content.

Here's a novel idea for everyone here... Discard all the garbage propoganda you read here, discard all the un-named sources in online articles, discard all the hearsay and bickering, and just take a step back. Neither HD DVD or BD "did" anything to anybody here. Go see the formats at the stores or at your families/friends houses. Judge the value proposition of each to you personally and don't worry about what anyone else says or heard. I suspect you'll see the light, and get back to being an A/V enthusiast and lover of movies in your home.
Nice

[Esox50]

The fact certain titles have been released on HD-DVD and not on Blu-ray does not reflect a preference for one format over the other. There are other considerations at play...
I think most of us expected that that was the case. Logic dictates it. In