HiDef DVD News VII - News Only : AND WE MEAN IT: NEWS ONLY [Text View] - Page 2

mobius

11-21-06, 09:38 PM

So how many times are the HD-DVD fans going to post about the same two articles... ?? So are Seth and Lev the new wizards of gaming ??

:rolleyes:

And Seth fell into MS's backpocket over a year ago..

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/25/arts/25xbox.html?ex=1164258000&en=3df0b82c80f25794&ei=5070

b2b

How is this:

There is a saying in technology circles, often delivered with rueful respect, that if you give the folks at Microsoft enough chances, they will eventually deliver a compelling product. They did it with spreadsheets. They did it with Web browsers. And now, with the new Xbox 360, the Bill Gates team has delivered a legitimately excellent gaming and home media system. And there is nothing rueful about that.

Certainly, the graphics are incredibly detailed, lifelike and vivid, far beyond anything conceivable in the current generation of game consoles. Playing an Xbox 360 game can be almost like controlling a Pixar animated film or inhabiting "Band of Brothers." And that's on a regular old television. On a high-definition set, get ready for your eyes to weep.

falling into Microsoft's back pocket exactly?

So he likes the console and he likes the games? If you're a gamer, the 360 *is* a compelling product with some awesome games. That doesn't mean he's in Microsoft's back pocket any more than you are in Sony's back pocket.

mobius

11-21-06, 09:42 PM

What is amazing is to see that level of propaganda so well placed and at the level it was published. As far as being prepared, all that took was 5 mins. on google and another 10 looking at what those guys were all about. One guy is a general purpose writer and the other is so in love with Microsoft, his review is almost as biased as if Bill Gates wrote it himself. ;)

b2b

Or maybe we're seeing a media backlash from all of Kutaragi's big mouthing about the PS3.

2Channel

11-21-06, 09:55 PM

Well you certainly shouldn't be surprised by that when you make exaggerations like saying that no MPEG-2 disc has yet to equal a VC-1 disc. Statements like that just weaken your more legitimate arguments. To show that I know that Sony has made mistakes and that I am fair about this I will make a short list of them:

So a number of BD supporters say we're past the early Mpeg2 problems. Look at Tears of the Sun, it looks great. Ok, but then I look at the reviews of a critical launch title like Talladega Nights, and it doesn't. Maybe I'm being unfare, but it still seems like it's hit or miss with Mpeg2. My impression with reading VC-1 reviews is that if the source was good, or the movie was remastered, the disc looks great. With Mpeg2 it still seems hit or miss. I'll continue reading the reviews...who knows, maybe I'll change my mind, but I haven't seen anything persuasive yet.

Using MPEG-2 for all their Blu-ray movies was not a good idea and many of their early movies suffered from over compression because of that. Overall there is little reason for them to stick with MPEG-2 and even when their movies aren't negatively affected by using it they will get bashed because they continue to use it.

I get that Sony will never use VC-1, it's politically unacceptable. So how about they champion Mpeg4 and put the work into using a modern codec that has more potential? I can only find one explanation, and AnthonyP hit on it. When your only choice on a prticular title is the DVD in Mpeg2 or the BD in Mpeg2, guess which one is going to look better? I don't want to chear on a company behaving that way.

They should have released a subsidized stand alone Blu-ray player. Once Sony knew that Toshiba was going to do that they should have done that as well since it would help disprove the myth that Blu-ray players cost twice as much to make as HD DVD players. A myth that continues to be believed even today.

The problem is that there is simply not enogh blue laser supply. If Sony chose to do this they would have had to fall back to a DVD drive on the PS3.....which has been a big part of all the PS3 delays. Toshiba out flanked them on this one and there was nothing Sony could do about it. Sony can't even make enough PS3s without a low cost stand alone player eating into their blue laser supply.

They should not have overestimated the number of PS3 consoles they would be able to make this year. It gave their opponents an opportunity to attack them and made them look bad.

This I can understand. Forget what the opponents say now, they had to pump up the studios and convince them it was a safe bet to deliver titles on BD. If the studios knew how few PS3s would be available at launch, things might have turned out differently.

They should have included an IR receiver on the PS3 and released a remote for it on day one. Honestly releasing a Bluetooth remote a month after the PS3 makes it look like Sony forgot one of the uses that they were hoping for from PS3 owners. That being the playback of Blu-ray movies.

Agreed. The remote should have been ready for purchase day one. There's no explicable reason why they could not have a different team put a remote together when this product has been in development for so long.

Sony should have released a knock out movie or two this winter since a surprise announcement of Spiderman would have gotten a lot of publicity. Instead it was Fox who got closest to doing that with X-Men 3.

Yes, that brings me back to my concerns about Mpeg2 and Sony's go to market approach. Why do they feel this is good enough? In an odd way I've come to see the format war in a positive light. If we only had Blu-Ray what would the price of BD discs be (answer honetly b2b ;) )? And would we all be looking at The Fifth Element and saying "wow, this is great?" Competition is a good thing, and I think both formats will still be slugging it out all of next year.

b2bonez

11-21-06, 09:57 PM

How is this:

falling into Microsoft's back pocket exactly?

So he likes the console and he likes the games? If you're a gamer, the 360 *is* a compelling product with some awesome games. That doesn't mean he's in Microsoft's back pocket any more than you are in Sony's back pocket.

There is a saying in technology circles, often delivered with rueful respect, that if you give the folks at Microsoft enough chances, they will eventually deliver a compelling product. They did it with spreadsheets. They did it with Web browsers. And now, with the new Xbox 360, the Bill Gates team has delivered a legitimately excellent gaming and home media system. And there is nothing rueful about that.

That quote was taken right after the 360 was released. If that isn't a royal smacko on the buttocks of Bill Gates in particular and Microsoft in general, I don't know what is. ;)

Even if I was in Sony's back pocket, I wouldn't be as overt as Seth and have the nerve to put that into print in the NYT.

b2b

mobius

11-21-06, 10:00 PM

Well there is the XBox Game ad right in the middle of the article..
http://www.hardcoreware.net/image.php?src=5350&ts=1164033279

Plus if he hates PS3 so bad why is he developing games for it ???

The "anonymous friend" again... Funny how Mr. Anonymous is so universally a PS3 basher.. ;)

b2b

Maybe he works for Activision, Ubi, or Capcom?

David Susilo

11-21-06, 10:35 PM

The future has consistently arrived (e.g. BD50).

really?

"Wait until BD is released, it'll blow HD-DVD out of the water"... it doesn't happen
"Wait until BD-50 is released, it'll blow HD-DVD out of the water"... doesn't happen either
"Wait until November 17th, Blu-ray will kill HD-DVD".... it doesn't happen either

here I am, with a BD player at home, hooked up, and still waiting for BD to kill and/or blow HD-DVD out of the water.

onanie

11-21-06, 10:47 PM

really?

"Wait until BD is released, it'll blow HD-DVD out of the water"... it doesn't happen
"Wait until BD-50 is released, it'll blow HD-DVD out of the water"... doesn't happen either
"Wait until November 17th, Blu-ray will kill HD-DVD".... it doesn't happen either

here I am, with a BD player at home, hooked up, and still waiting for BD to kill and/or blow HD-DVD out of the water.

If that's the only thing left that we're waiting for, then BD is all set, really.

David Susilo

11-21-06, 11:02 PM

no, the major one thing I'm waiting is the promise of Bluray of performing better than HD-DVD (ie better PQ and AQ, which is so far, at best, is on par with HD-DVD)

onanie

11-21-06, 11:09 PM

no, the major one thing I'm waiting is the promise of Bluray of performing better than HD-DVD (ie better PQ and AQ, which is so far, at best, is on par with HD-DVD)

Indeed, if that is the only thing we're waiting for from Blu-ray, then it is set. The specs are set in stone, and there is no technical reason why it can't perform better.

For the moment, (ignoring the studio support situation for argument's sake), why do you need Blu-ray to be better than HD-DVD? It costs the same to get into either format, except that the PS3 does more.

David Susilo

11-21-06, 11:13 PM

talbain

11-21-06, 11:27 PM

onanie

11-21-06, 11:38 PM

there is no technical reason why it can't perform better. It's true. So why it still doesn't perform better?

PS3 better do more than HD-DVD, the price is about US$150 more than HD-DVD player. In Canada, the price difference between the two is about US$250 (ie. about 50% more than standalone HD-DVD player)

There could be various reasons. Firstly, there are only three codecs - all shared by both formats (perhaps it is really only two at the moment VC-1 and mpeg2). When used within the same constraints e.g. space and bandwidth, they look the same. Secondly, movies are probably developed for the lowest common denominator - until HD DVD is killed off, this might remain to be the case (with some exceptions probably).

Again, with its other advantages (in hardware and software support), does Blu-ray PQ need to be better now?

If I may add a general point, perhaps for another line of discussion - if one is able to believe that even the best of encodes have yet to tax the theoretical limits of the human eye, then there is always room for improvement. Whatever limit we are at, we should ask for more, not less.

hdkhang

11-22-06, 12:06 AM

@b2b

You do realise how contradictory all your posts are. Anything positive for HD-DVD is obviously bad in some way, anything negative towards BD is transparent to the end user and is good enough so there is nothing wrong. Maybe if you took the same attitude towards both sides you'd see there was absolutely no point to your post in reply to a game dev stating his preference for developing for Xbox360 vs PS3. Is one not allowed to have an opinion that differs from yours without there being a hidden agenda?

If MS providing an excellent dev toolset or whatever its called results in excellent games, what is the end result for the gamers? Does it matter to them that the product was developed on a platform that is not as open as that of PS3s? Are you going to hear anyone say... "no I must not play Gears of War as it would be a sign of my support for closed dev environments" Much the same you won't hear anyone say... "no I must not buy BD-ROMs as the subsidies are costing the companies too much money and it feels like I'm ripping them off".

How about just responding when there is something worthwhile to add other than spin, FUD or conspiracy theories.

Cheers...
Duy-Khang Hoang

2Channel

11-22-06, 12:44 AM

2Channel

11-22-06, 12:48 AM

There could be various reasons. Firstly, there are only three codecs - all shared by both formats (perhaps it is really only two at the moment VC-1 and mpeg2). When used within the same constraints e.g. space and bandwidth, they look the same. Secondly, movies are probably developed for the lowest common denominator - until HD DVD is killed off, this might remain to be the case (with some exceptions probably).

Again, with its other advantages (in hardware and software support), does Blu-ray PQ need to be better now?

If I may add a general point, perhaps for another line of discussion - if one is able to believe that even the best of encodes have yet to tax the theoretical limits of the human eye, then there is always room for improvement. Whatever limit we are at, we should ask for more, not less.

It's like you're channeling Sony in this statement. We don't actually need to deliver better PQ, do we? I mean we're Sony. We have the studio support, look at all of our glossy adds, look at the PS3. I know we promissed better PQ, but I mean really it's not necessary.

darinp2

11-22-06, 02:00 AM

My impression with reading VC-1 reviews is that if the source was good, or the movie was remastered, the disc looks great. With Mpeg2 it still seems hit or miss.Some of the reviews for "Superman Returns" report it being soft and it could be a source issue, just like "Talledega Nights" could be a source issue. I'm a VC-1 fan, but issues like with "Click" and TN could definitely be source related.
I get that Sony will never use VC-1, it's politically unacceptable. So how about they champion Mpeg4 and put the work into using a modern codec that has more potential?My understanding is that Sony has an AVC/MPEG4 encoder. It could be that they just don't think it is ready for prime time at this point. I would be very surprised if they don't have people working on it.
Yes, that brings me back to my concerns about Mpeg2 and Sony's go to market approach. Why do they feel this is good enough? In an odd way I've come to see the format war in a positive light. If we only had Blu-Ray what would the price of BD discs be (answer honetly b2b ;) )? And would we all be looking at The Fifth Element and saying "wow, this is great?"Would you expect Warner and Universal releases to look worse if they had been releasing for Blu-ray instead of HD DVD? If not, why wouldn't we see the same differences between their stuff and Sony's stuff that we have seen? It is possible that Warner would not have had a "spend whatever it takes to make it look its best" attitude if they hadn't mostly been on the underdog side in a format war though.

--Darin

What'sHD

11-22-06, 02:15 AM

It's like you're channeling Sony in this statement. We don't actually need to deliver better PQ, do we? I mean we're Sony. We have the studio support, look at all of our glossy adds, look at the PS3. I know we promissed better PQ, but I mean really it's not necessary.
2channel, i am curious. IYO, how could we define better PQ for BD? Would it be:

1. A movie encoded for BD and HD by a common studio?
In this case, the encode is always the same, so far. So, we need a studio to encode the same movie separately, while using BD bitrate to the max with same encoder.

2. A movie which is BD exclusive?
No way to compare and no objective way to say the movie looks better than all HD movies even if it does, since we have not seen what HD can do with the same master.

3. Other way?

I dunno how the debate of BD's PQ should be > HD PQ can ever be settled in the real world.

Only imaginary path I can think of is Sony studios encoding a movie owned by a common studio, JUST to demo BD PQ >= HD PQ

DTV TiVo Dealer

11-22-06, 02:30 AM

I am very sorry and sad to say this great forum is being damaged by the silly childish remarks of the same handful of offending members. Personally I do not want to read this crap and if I did I would read trash books.

We come to this forum to get technical information and industry news and since this format war began we get bombarded with worthless trash talk. If you don't have educational information or a honest question to add to the threads please do not post at all. It does not help your position or yourself by posting garbage and if anything it damages your reputation. Lets all take the great mods advice and "take the high road in every post you make"

Please guys grow up and maintain the high quality this forum was built on.

-Robert

Richard Paul

11-22-06, 03:38 AM

Here goes the Blu-ray mantra all over again:

"wait until (insert excuse here)"Before saying that could you at least read what I posted and think about it for a bit. No offense but if people had used GUN to judge the Xbox 360 would you have defended them?

Who's interest does it serve to make excuses for Sony on this? and is anyone buying the line about this is the console for Sony for the next 10 years as well? I see too much BS and not enough delivery out of Sony.Why do people bash Sony for saying that the PS3 would be a viable game console for ten years? They never said that the PS4 wouldn't come out before than.

Ok, so now we can push that timeline back to:

"Well.......wait until people learn how to makes games on the PS3".Michael, all talkstr8t said was that PS3 games will get better with time as developers get use to the PS3. That to be blunt is not an unreasonable statement to make. Also making up that quote to use against him was a pretty deceptive thing to do since many people would assume that he posted that. In case that was meant to be an exaggeration you really should be clear about that when you do it.

Richard Paul

11-22-06, 03:40 AM

So a number of BD supporters say we're past the early Mpeg2 problems. Look at Tears of the Sun, it looks great. Ok, but then I look at the reviews of a critical launch title like Talladega Nights, and it doesn't. Maybe I'm being unfare, but it still seems like it's hit or miss with Mpeg2.Just because Talladega Nights wasn't well reviewed does not mean that it was based on which video codec was used. Also it has been a while since I have heard about a Sony Blu-ray movie that suffered from obvious compression artifacts, which was a problem with early titles.

My impression with reading VC-1 reviews is that if the source was good, or the movie was remastered, the disc looks great.Well as long as you count out the movies that had poor sources that would certainly help with reviews on video quality.

With Mpeg2 it still seems hit or miss.What happens though if you count out the movies with poor sources?

I get that Sony will never use VC-1, it's politically unacceptable. So how about they champion Mpeg4 and put the work into using a modern codec that has more potential?Personally I think they will eventually switch to MPEG-4 AVC HP and they certainly have no political reason not to use it.

When your only choice on a prticular title is the DVD in Mpeg2 or the BD in Mpeg2, guess which one is going to look better? I don't want to chear on a company behaving that way.Than don't, if you think a Blu-ray movie from Sony doesn't look good enough from reviews of it than don't buy it. At the same time though going against Blu-ray simply because you don't think Sony is doing good enough with their releases is in my opinion cutting off your nose to spite your face.

The problem is that there is simply not enogh blue laser supply.That could be true and the supply of blue laser diodes will be tight this winter.

Competition is a good thing, and I think both formats will still be slugging it out all of next year.I certainly don't mind competition but I dislike the idea of universal players becoming standard. Personally speaking it would just seem so unnecessary especially if/when Universal starts supporting Blu-ray.

nilsp

11-22-06, 04:12 AM

Robert, wouldn't that be nice. But is it realistic? On any forum where anyone can sign up? One can hope, but... Hope spings eternal, they say, well in our case, the emphasis would be on eternal.

Myself being in the Blu-ray camp, I finally give up trying to respond to the barrage from certain HD DVD individuals. I've been following this thread since the original start a couple of years ago, there's always been bickering, but as you say Robert, it's recently gotten much worse. I pity the "uneducated" coming into this forum looking for unbiased information... (At least some of them are easy to spot from their .sig)

I'm sure some HD DVD people would say the same about the Blu-ray folks...

Here are a couple of the points I offer from my viewpoint, as I will spend more time in the future watching movies and playing games, than arguing which format/platform/box/disc/release/codec is better. (Will still skim through, and respond to outlandish claims one way or the other...:))

* Both HD DVD and Blu-ray releases now have excellent PQ/AQ, though hit and miss on both sides.
* Improved PQ on Blu-ray titles, can most likely be attributed to VC-1 on HD DVD. So big thanks to MS for an excellent codec. Competition is good.
* AQ on both are also very very good, again hit and miss on both sides.
* Studio support is still in favor of Blu-ray, but it may change, depending on the continued success of HD DVD.
* As What's HD mentions above, difference in PQ between platforms are hard to measure. And how can Blu-ray come out with better PQ than HD DVD, if the HD DVD release is already virtually visually transparent to the master? Both will have great PQ, simple as that. Now we can just hope every studio will maximize PQ on each release.

One the PS3:
* The PS3 is out, and for those interested, provides good PQ Blu-ray playback. Will easily hold you over standalone dedicated player/recorders come out.
* Launch titles are not perfect. Big surprise. But a couple of titles are great, as it was then the 360 was released. (History repeats itself, so NO surprise there. Yet some are....)
* Can't wait to get one. If you rather get the HD DVD add-on, great, enjoy! (If Universal stays exclusive, I might get it too, for my HTPC. :))
* Is it worth $599? To me it is, if not for you, well, then don't buy it.

Here is a nice quote from A movie, or rather a B movie. :) Let "little people" be those in the "other" camp from you:

"Why can't we work out our differences? Why can't we work things out? Little people, why can't we all just get along?"

avs1688

11-22-06, 04:15 AM

amillians

11-22-06, 08:35 AM

Don't know if this is common knowledge by now...

-- GameStop's COO quoted tie rates for the PS3 around 1.5:1, vs. 3:1 for the Wii. Even factoring in the eBay flipper effect, he said the tie was "low" for the PS3, below expectations. They predict that "historical norms" will take hold in time. And please don't flame me if GameStop is some rinky dink outfit not representative of true gaming stats...I don't play games. I watch movies. When my daughter lets me.

-- Taking a page from the MSFT playbook, SCEA is now distancing itself from claiming they would ship 400K units for the NA launch, instead focusing on YE figures: "Our target has always been 1 to 1.2 million shipped by Dec. 31, total," not 400,000 at launch. Pretty much everyone is agreeing that they won't hit that goal, even Hirai, who again noted they hope to ship "upwards of a million" units. SCEA also confirmed that they will NOT be releasing actual sales or shipment figures for the PS3. At least not until they feel like it. Don't expect weekly updates from them...we'll have to get our figures elsewhere.

-- Sigma Designs has effectively accused Toshiba and Microsoft of subsidizing HD DVD, further branding the format's players "proprietary products." VP Kenneth Lowe confirmed 6 design wins for Sigma for Blu-ray (including rebadges) and zero for HD DVD. Sigma is still predicting 200K total unit sales for BD and HD DVD players for 2006. Lowe also dislikes the concept of universal players, noting combo designs would add $200-300 in component costs. Sigma's SMP-8634 will get tweaked in 2007, bootsing MIPS and adding SATA support...current customers are demanding "more software headroom."

-- Samsung has decided after all these years to add its patents to DVD6C. Hmmm....

BrynRhys

11-22-06, 08:43 AM

The company also has shipped its $200 HD DVD drive, which comes packed-in with Peter Jackson’s King Kong title. The add-on drive also plays HD DVD movies on any PC, making it the most affordable HD-DVD player on the market.

Home Media Retailing (http://www.homemediaretailing.com/news/html/breaking_article.cfm?article_id=9961)

Really? I was under the impression that there were significant hoops to jump through and only certain PCs would have the power to use the drive effectively.

admonish

11-22-06, 08:50 AM

-- Sigma Designs has effectively accused Toshiba and Microsoft of subsidizing HD DVD, further branding the format's players "proprietary products." VP Kenneth Lowe confirmed 6 design wins for Sigma for Blu-ray (including rebadges) and zero for HD DVD. Sigma is still predicting 200K total unit sales for BD and HD DVD players for 2006. Lowe also dislikes the concept of universal players, noting combo designs would add $200-300 in component costs. Sigma's SMP-8634 will get tweaked in 2007, bootsing MIPS and adding SATA support...current customers are demanding "more software headroom."...

pardon my ignorance here, but why would Kenneth Lowe EVEN care about what toshiba or microsoft is doing? how does this effect sigma designs?

scaesare

11-22-06, 08:51 AM

Most reviews have also noted that the titles we see today pale in comparison to what we're likely to see once developers have gained some experience with the system. Clearly the PS3 has far more to work with: far higher disc capacity, six-access controllers, mandatory hard drive, phenomenal graphics hardware, open platform. I'm confident by the time production catches up to demand the quality of titles will improve to the point that there will be a clear difference in system capability versus the Xbox 360.

Certainly the PS3 has some exciting hardware. I'm very interested to see what Cell can do when ramped up, and I wonder what the devs will cook up with the extra disk space.

But in all fairness, it's rather widely held that the 360's GPU with it's unified shader architecture and 192 micro-op CPU's that give you 4x AA for "free" is a much more advanced design that PS3's.

And in the context of your post, which is regarding the quality of game titles developed, the development environment for 360 is superior to the PS3's as well. The "openness" of the alternate Linux environment has nothing to do with that. Sony's authoring tools are just propriatary as MS's, and if anything are probably less accessible, given that anybody today can dabble with the free XNA authoring environment they can download from MS.

BenDover

11-22-06, 08:54 AM

BenDover

11-22-06, 09:03 AM

btw, doesn't toshiba act as licensing agent for the 6c pool?

nataraj

11-22-06, 10:06 AM

pardon my ignorance here, but why would Kenneth Lowe EVEN care about what toshiba or microsoft is doing? how does this effect sigma designs?

He doesn't like it that they haven't got any hd dvd design wins.

nataraj

11-22-06, 10:08 AM

-- GameStop's COO quoted tie rates for the PS3 around 1.5:1

That shows a lot of people are buying PS3 for playing movies ! And it has nothing to do with the price of PS3 / lack of good games !! ;)

mikey p

11-22-06, 10:37 AM

I guess as long as MSFT got involved.

Things get ugly.

Have fun !!

They have done this sort of thing for years, but never has it got this bad, IMHO, YMMV. Times change, and not always for the best. ;)

lymzy

11-22-06, 11:15 AM

Sigma Designs has effectively accused Toshiba and Microsoft of subsidizing HD DVD, further branding the format's players "proprietary products."

What does this proprietary products mean?

adding SATA support...current customers are demanding "more software headroom."

More software headroom for Java and SATA for recorders? 6 design wins: Sony, Pio, Panny, Philips, Sharp,LG? Only Samsung is using Broadcom.

-- Samsung has decided after all these years to add its patents to DVD6C. Hmmm....

A sign of double dipping? I am reading too much.

archibael

11-22-06, 11:17 AM

Home Media Retailing (http://www.homemediaretailing.com/news/html/breaking_article.cfm?article_id=9961)

Really? I was under the impression that there were significant hoops to jump through and only certain PCs would have the power to use the drive effectively.

Actually, it looks to be a fairly universal solution, so far. WinDVD and PowerDVD software appear to recognize and work with the drive without effort-- it's the WinDVD and PowerDVD software itself that is limited, at this point, and apparently will be until Q1'07.

smithfarmer

11-22-06, 11:21 AM

I guess the analysts haven't been reading the generally woeful reviews of Microsoft's Zune.

Would you care to add any other non HiDef DVD related news?

Esox50

11-22-06, 11:37 AM

archibael

11-22-06, 11:49 AM

Can someone please explain to me why there is the expectation of BD a/v quality being "better" than HD DVD? Both formats are 1920x1080, use the same codecs, and are alleged to be transparent to the source master.

Is it because BD costs more? Is it because of the advertising slogan "Beyond High Definition"? Is it because some people like to see the "underdog" win?

I really don't get it. Then based on unrealistic expectations, some people act as though BD has murdered their children and that's even more baffling to me.

It's the cost, mostly. People who have bought into HD DVD are more than thrilled with the PQ they're obtaining, and so the ultimate question for them is, "Why switch to a more expensive solution?"

Typically people switch to something new because it is better or cheaper... and if BD doesn't fulfill either right now, from an HD DVD-fan standpoint, why is it even littering the landscape, preventing "us" from getting titles from Fox, MGM, Disney, and Columbia?

Now you can argue that BD will be a better solution for longer movies with more extras, but at this point that doesn't hold much water for HD DVD folks because there has so far been nothing to illustrate this superiority.

So I don't think it's "unrealistic expectations", per se, just "Why pay more for merely the same quality?" And Sony did not help with the first wave of titles, since the quality was not even up to the level of "the same".

BrynRhys

11-22-06, 11:53 AM

Actually, it looks to be a fairly universal solution, so far..{snip}

Thanks, I'll check into those threads. :)

BenDover

11-22-06, 11:57 AM

ILJG

11-22-06, 11:58 AM

Can someone please explain to me why there is the expectation of BD a/v quality being "better" than HD DVD? Both formats are 1920x1080, use the same codecs, and are alleged to be transparent to the source master.

Is it because BD costs more?

Usually people equate things being more expensive to providing better quality. Is that really such a stretch?

Is it because of the advertising slogan "Beyond High Definition"? Is it because some people like to see the "underdog" win?

I really don't get it. Then based on unrealistic expectations, some people act as though BD has murdered their children and that's even more baffling to me

BD was sold to the studios and the public as being superior because of MORE, MORE, MORE! More storage, more bandwidth, more studio support. They're the victim of their own marketing that set these "unrealistic expectations," not the other way around. If you tell people that more storage, bandwidth, studio support is going to give you a better product, and then charge more for it...it certainly isn't anyone else's fault other than your own for setting those expectations.

briankmonkey

11-22-06, 12:18 PM

don't count on it. there just isn't that much difference between the two systems. in fact, depending upon the technical article of the week, the 360 is the more powerful system. at least john carmack thinks so, and he's a guy who's opinion i value a hell of a lot more than i do yours (no offense)...

actually Talbain, John Carmack said the PS3 is more powerful thouh he prefers the 360's symmetric CPU architecture (probably as it closer to what he is used to working on with PC's)

http://www.next-gen.biz/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1974&Itemid=36

"They are both powerful systems that are going to make excellent game platforms, but I have a bit of a preference for the 360’s symmetric CPU architecture and excellent development tools," he said. "The PS3 will have a bit more peak power, but it will be easier to exploit the available power on the 360. Our next major title is being focused towards simultaneous release on 360, PS3, and PC."

b2bonez

11-22-06, 12:21 PM

b2bonez

11-22-06, 12:39 PM

More competition for Sigma and Broadcom.

Note: This is IP (blueprints..) that is being sold to potential customers that want to use the design to build chips.
BANGALORE, India, Oct. 31 /-- Ittiam Systems, a leader in providing digital media processing & communication Intellectual Property (IP) solutions, today announced and showcased their High Definition Video Decoder Engine -- MFVDEC (Multi-Format High Definition Video Decoder) IP -- that forms the core of High Definition DVD and Set-Top Box ASIC solutions.

http://news.thomasnet.com/fullstory/497819/rss

b2b

Edit: Can't remember, is this old news ?

evader45

11-22-06, 12:43 PM

Well it's not to hard to figure out that below cost players is the only thing keeping HD-DVD afloat and even that isn't attracting massive player sales as evidenced by the 70,000 G1 players not being sold out by now. The whole CE industry went over cliff in lemming fashion with DVD around 2003 and now Toshiba, MS and Hollywood is wanting them to dust themselves off, climb the cliff and do it all over again with HD-DVD.

It's going to be interesting to see if one if the BD partners design a really low budget BD player using a SoC and have that to counter the below cost strategy that Toshiba and MS have for HD-DVD.

b2b

I think you have things a little backwards.... It's actually a below cost game console that people are hoping will keep BD afloat.

WayneL

11-22-06, 12:49 PM

I think you have things a little backwards.... It's actually a below cost game console that people are hoping will keep BD afloat.
Best point in the whole thread. It ain't HD thats lagging.

b2bonez

11-22-06, 12:49 PM

I think you have things a little backwards.... It's actually a below cost game console that people are hoping will keep BD afloat.

BD seems to "floating" pretty well... ;)
VP Kenneth Lowe confirmed 6 design wins for Sigma for Blu-ray (including rebadges) and zero for HD DVD.

Considering it takes close to a year to bring a fully formed product to market, it would seem that HD-DVDs "no profit" business model isn't going over real well with the CE companies...

b2b

Esox50

11-22-06, 12:58 PM

Usually people equate things being more expensive to providing better quality. Is that really such a stretch?
Oh, I get that (fauly as THAT may be in and of itself). But what I fail to understand is if the HD DVD camp decided to half the price of their initial players (and some would say "subsidize")...why does that equate that BD having to be "better"? The specs didn't suddenly change. Both formats can do 1920x1080 and lossless audio, and we're told are "transparent to the master". So, does BD have to have twice the resolution and "no, it's really lossless audio this time" audio now that Toshiba decided to come out with a $500 player? That makes no sense to me.

Why is the BD camp penalized here for following a traditional product life cycle - pricing formula?

BD was sold to the studios and the public as being superior because of MORE, MORE, MORE! More storage, more bandwidth, more studio support. They're the victim of their own marketing that set these "unrealistic expectations," not the other way around. If you tell people that more storage, bandwidth, studio support is going to give you a better product, and then charge more for it...it certainly isn't anyone else's fault other than your own for setting those expectations.
We're talking about the people here on this forum, not what was sold to the studios. Ok, so the BDA "sold" a bag of goods to the studios. Last I checked, the entire January slate from Disney is on BD50. Seems like there's plenty of "storage" to go around. Did the "more bandwidth" in the BD spec spontaneously disappear recently? And yes, they have more studio support, especailly with Fox having started their releases a week ago. It's looks like all those things are in place now as of 4Q2006, so what's the problem here?

Honestly, I used to think this thing was going to be a draw, but as a person who currently owns neither format, it looks from where I am as if the BDA is winning the 4Q. For the record, i think both camps have disappointed me this 4Q (with delayed players, and only a handful of truly "good" titles). However, it just seems the BDA has made up any lost ground from earlier in the year at this point, and is poised to deliver serious blows to HD DVD into 2007.

I think HD DVD needs a few more players from different manufacturers and some more studio support and FAST, or this thing is slipping away. Just my $0.02.

roma_victor

11-22-06, 01:04 PM

Well it's not to hard to figure out that below cost players is the only thing keeping HD-DVD afloat

I've seen numerous posts from you asserting that HD DVD players (plural) are being subsidized, but not once have I seen you post any evidence or cost analysis showing that the A2 (or even the 360 add on) are "below cost" players. Unless and until there is such evidence or analysis, this is pure speculation.

b2bonez

11-22-06, 01:06 PM

I think HD DVD needs a few more players from different manufacturers and some more studio support and FAST, or this thing is slipping away. Just my $0.02.

One company building HW and three studios does not a "format" make. That is more commonly known as "nice try"... ;)

b2b

WayneL

11-22-06, 01:09 PM

One company building HW and three studios does not a "format" make. That is more commonly known as "nice try"... ;)
Sort of like MS and competing operating system formats?

archibael

11-22-06, 01:11 PM

Esox50

11-22-06, 01:20 PM

Because consumers have no loyalty to such traditions, and are perfectly happy to accept a new "stupid, profitless CE manufacturer" tradition if it means they get to save some cash and get equivalent quality. It was actually a smooth marketing move on the part of Toshiba, and I am sort of surprised the BD camp didn't counter it with a subsidized player of their own. I can only assume they figured the PS3 would be sufficient in that price range, and didn't count on it being so late.
I understand, and agree it was a smooth mkting move. I still don't understand how people post that BD is supposed to be "better" than "high definition", but ok if that's how they feel.

I understand $$$ may be the major issue for a lot of people here. But the specs and deliverables don't suddenly change for one format when the competitor halves it's projected pricing for similar/same specs. And, for some people to act as though the BDA has personally "dissed" them due to a Toshiba price drop is amazing to me, and speaks volumes about many of the posters here.

I wonder how many people who post were here for the DVD rollout in 1997, maybe it's a generational gap. :D

b2bonez

11-22-06, 01:38 PM

Because consumers have no loyalty to such traditions, and are perfectly happy to accept a new "stupid, profitless CE manufacturer" tradition if it means they get to save some cash and get equivalent quality. It was actually a smooth marketing move on the part of Toshiba, and I am sort of surprised the BD camp didn't counter it with a subsidized player of their own. I can only assume they figured the PS3 would be sufficient in that price range, and didn't count on it being so late.

Well if you look at the sales stats for DVD (http://www.thedigitalbits.com/articles/cemadvdsales.html) you can see that it took almost 3 years for DVD to really catch on. DVD was a direct plug compatable replacement for VCR, a HD disc format can't claim that luxury. You are targeting a much smaller potential customer base that has the necessary HD displays and stats show that only around 50% of those people even go to the expense to connect them to a HD source.

So in essence the CE companies are fighting a battle to convince people to not only buy the source of HD on shiny disc, but the very expensive destination of a HD display.

PS3 just happens to be the only product that people will buy that can deliver both a proven product demand and introduce people to a new HD disc format that Hollywood lusts over.

b2b

2Channel

11-22-06, 01:52 PM

b2bonez

11-22-06, 01:54 PM

I've seen numerous posts from you asserting that HD DVD players (plural) are being subsidized, but not once have I seen you post any evidence or cost analysis showing that the A2 (or even the 360 add on) are "below cost" players. Unless and until there is such evidence or analysis, this is pure speculation.

Well maybe the A2 will get here before the end of the year and iSuppli will do a cost breakdown like they did on the A1. If you think that the Xbox addon selling for $199 if a real profit maker then have at it. ;)

But it's not only a drive, it has something like 192meg of static memory, comes with a remote control and free copy of KK. Considering that retailers like to make profit on the products they sell, a 30% markup would put the wholesale at around $150.00. In total dollars that's just not much room for profit when blue lasers have been quoted to sell for around $80 just for the diode.

b2b

roma_victor

11-22-06, 02:00 PM

Well maybe the A2 will get here before the end of the year and iSuppli will do a cost breakdown like they did on the A1.

As you point out, the A2 has yet to be released, and to assert that a not-yet-released product is subsidized is the very definition of speculation.

Unless and until iSuppli (or another entity) does a cost breakdown that reasonably shows the costs of the A2, please do not assert the subsidy as though it's a fact.

roma_victor

11-22-06, 02:04 PM

If you think that the Xbox addon selling for $199 if a real profit maker then have at it. ;)
But it's not only a drive, it has something like 192meg of static memory, comes with a remote control and free copy of KK. Considering that retailers like to make profit on the products they sell, a 30% markup would put the wholesale at around $150.00. In total dollars that's just not much room for profit when blue lasers have been quoted to sell for around $80 just for the diode.

"Not much room for profit" is not the same as being below cost, and the free copy of KK is only a short time promotion.

Again, unless and until iSuppli or some other entity does a credible analysis of the costs of the 360 add on, please do not assert that it is a "below cost" player as though it is fact. It is fine to speculate about it, as long as it is acknowledged as speculation.

ILJG

11-22-06, 02:07 PM

Oh, I get that (fauly as THAT may be in and of itself). But what I fail to understand is if the HD DVD camp decided to half the price of their initial players (and some would say "subsidize")...why does that equate that BD having to be "better"? The specs didn't suddenly change. Both formats can do 1920x1080 and lossless audio, and we're told are "transparent to the master". So, does BD have to have twice the resolution and "no, it's really lossless audio this time" audio now that Toshiba decided to come out with a $500 player? That makes no sense to me.

Why is the BD camp penalized here for following a traditional product life cycle - pricing formula?

Penalized? You mean people opting not to buy them? You mean people supporting a different format? Not sure how those qualify as "penalization." People can buy, or not buy, what they choose. Whether you agree or disagree with anyone's reasoning as to why they purchase and support a format and not the other has nothing to do with a format being "penalized." It's not as though there are government barriers to either, or unfair business practices going on, trust me, these companies would be in court faster than the blink of an eye if that were the case. People doing what they always do in a free market (buying what they want, not buying what they don't) is hardly a "penalty."

We're talking about the people here on this forum, not what was sold to the studios.

And the people here on this forum were offered HD-DVD players at half the price of BD players. if you're going to argue that "people here" shouldn't care what was offered to the studios, then the "people here" shouldn't care about what you, or anyone else, deems a "natural product cycle," either. If they shouldn't care about a company's marketing to studios, they shouldn't have to care about another's pricing, if the argument is going to be that "it's only what the people here can see."

Ok, so the BDA "sold" a bag of goods to the studios. Last I checked, the entire January slate from Disney is on BD50. Seems like there's plenty of "storage" to go around.

If you think because of these announcements that BD50 is now the norm and the majority, and BD25 no longer is, you're either being disingenuous or you just don't know the numbers. By far, most titles are still BD25. You're equally naive, or still disingenuous, if you believe the studios were told that BD25 would be the norm, and BD50 the exception.

But this wasn't your point. Your point was "why are expectations so high and unfair for BD?" This is one of the reasons. They got people and studios to expect BD50 to be the norm. It still isn't. Their touting of storage superiority hasn't come to pass. The vast majority of their titles are still BD25, and the few BD50 titles, with all their storage "superiority" don't look or sound any better than HD-DVD 30's, and don't offer as much interactivity.

Did the "more bandwidth" in the BD spec spontaneously disappear recently? And yes, they have more studio support, especailly with Fox having started their releases a week ago. It's looks like all those things are in place now as of 4Q2006, so what's the problem here?

It sounds like you want to ask the question, but not listen to the answer. Your original question was:

Can someone please explain to me why there is the expectation of BD a/v quality being "better" than HD DVD?

More bandwidth didn't go away, neither did BD50, neither did "more studios." The truth of the matter is, that more bandwidth is still there, BD50 is trickling in (even if not honestly represented initially) and more studio support is still there, although some articles allude to the fact that the stuios have felt duped by BD. With all of these bullet points above, why is it so difficult for someone to expect better quality with these things? Would you expect COMPARABLE OR LESS PQ/AQ with more storage and bandwidth? Would you expect COMPARABLE OR LESS interactivity with more storage or bandwidth? I'm guessing not, unless you're really illogical or just deliberately trying to be obtuse.

The fact of the matter is that with all this "superiority" the titles as a whole don't look or sound any better, and still, there aren't as many of them even though there are more studios, and they're still lagging in interactivity (not just the software's fault, but still a combination of things within the format).

Honestly, I used to think this thing was going to be a draw, but as a person who currently owns neither format, it looks from where I am as if the BDA is winning the 4Q.

When there are fewer titles, and at best, BD is only sometimes comparable to HD-DVD PQ, and has less interactivity, and significantly higher priced stand-alone players, and a console that's next to impossible to get hold of...you think BD is winning Q4?

Wow. If that's what you truly believe, you really are either naive or disingenuous.

rdjam

11-22-06, 02:09 PM

b2bonez

11-22-06, 02:11 PM

The fundamental issue is that while these formats have options/ability to provide lossless audio, they do not provide lossless video compression. The link below should be helpful.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_codecs#Video_codecs

Mpeg2, Mpeg4, VC-1 are all lossy compression codecs. "Transparency to the Master" is marketing. The better the encoding the closer you'll get, but it's not the master. Some factors involved are

1. the skill of the people doing the encoding
2. the quality of the codec
3. the storage space/bandwidth available for the encoding.

(if I've missed any I hope people will correct me)

The majority of HD-DVD titles are VC-1, the majority of BD titles are Mpeg2.

HD-DVD supporters (like myself) say that VC-1 is a great codec and has shown that it can deliver great results even though the storage density and bandwidth on HD-DVD is lower than BD.

BD supporters...well they've made their position clear on the subject.

So after BD was positioned as the best there is, should we expect it to live up to the promise? Or do we just right that off as marketing?

Well you left out the biggest factor of all.

4. Quality of the master source.

As much as people want to point to codecs and quality of encoding, the master is the controlling factor in all of these discussions.

Films and their masters are much like a bag of apples and while they are all the same fruit, once you look closely at each one they all vary in size, smoothness in skin and have differing shapes and contours. The only thing a encoder can do is to seek to insure that what you started out with gets delivered at the end of the chain, without bumps, bruises and rotten fruit. But sometimes no matter what the process is, a bad apple is going to end up in the bag. ;)

b2b

2Channel

11-22-06, 02:13 PM

Would you expect Warner and Universal releases to look worse if they had been releasing for Blu-ray instead of HD DVD? If not, why wouldn't we see the same differences between their stuff and Sony's stuff that we have seen? It is possible that Warner would not have had a "spend whatever it takes to make it look its best" attitude if they hadn't mostly been on the underdog side in a format war though.

--Darin

I'm begining to think that the fact the two formats came to market actually caused those with a stake in a given format to work harder to release better product. I believe that this in turn has caused most studios to try to raise the bar.

It's all personal opinion though, so take it for what it's worth.

2Channel

11-22-06, 02:14 PM

Well you left out the biggest factor of all.

4. Quality of the master source.

As much as people want to point to codecs and quality of encoding, the master is the controlling factor in all of these discussions.

Films and their masters are much like a bag of apples and while they are all the same fruit, once you look closely at each one they all vary in size, smoothness in skin and have differing shapes and contours. The only thing a encoder can do is to seek to insure that what you started out with gets delivered at the end of the chain, without bumps, bruises and rotten fruit. But sometimes no matter what the process is, a bad apple is going to end up in the bag. ;)

b2b

Thanks b2b. I knew I was missing something. Too busy this morning....

BenDover

11-22-06, 02:22 PM

is the free copy of TN bundled with the PS3 for a limited time included in the PS3 price breakdown...?

b2bonez

11-22-06, 02:32 PM

As you point out, the A2 has yet to be released, and to assert that a not-yet-released product is subsidized is the very definition of speculation.

Unless and until iSuppli (or another entity) does a cost breakdown that reasonably shows the costs of the A2, please do not assert the subsidy as though it's a fact.

Well you are saying that I said something about the A2, which I did not.
Originally Posted by b2bonez
Well it's not to hard to figure out that below cost players is the only thing keeping HD-DVD afloat
It seems that you are speculating more about the possibility of the subsidization of the A2 more than me...

The A2 can't float anything until it gets here.. ;)

b2b

kjack

11-22-06, 02:57 PM

In reality, both formats are still at the Model T stage. 1-2 years from now is when you'll start seeing the fullest capabilities each format has to offer.

I have to disagree with the statement about Warner though -- they are extremely caring about what you, the viewer, experience when you watch one of their movies. Very creative also... :)

b2bonez

11-22-06, 02:59 PM

I'm binging to think that the fact the two formats came to market actually caused those with a stake in a given format to work harder to release better product. I believe that this in turn has caused most studios to try to raise the bar.

It's all personal opinion though, so take it for what it's worth.

Case in point is "North by Northwest". When Lowry did the scan and restore for this film they came up to an unusual point in the film, the airplane/highway crash scene, where stunt cables connected to the airplane were clearly visible in the scan. Those cables had to be removed from the final print. That highlights that today with modern scanning and post production processes that what we have today is even better than what was shown in theaters when the movies were originally released.

Being hyper-critical of PQ is almost self-defeating when none of these films were ever "perfect" in PQ in the first place.

b2b

b2bonez

11-22-06, 03:10 PM

nataraj

11-22-06, 03:14 PM

I still don't understand how people post that BD is supposed to be "better" than "high definition", but ok if that's how they feel.

Well BD is supposed to be "beyond" high definition :p

Anyway, the idea is that people don't see any reason to support a format which is no better but twice the price. Is that hard to understand ?

roma_victor

11-22-06, 03:32 PM

Well you are saying that I said something about the A2, which I did not.

Beg your pardon, but you did exactly that in this previous post:

Originally Posted by b2bonez
By subsidizing the A1 and A2, they have wielded a sword with two edges.

found on this thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8855958#post8855958

Again, you stated this as though it's a fact. Please back it up with evidence or admit that it is nothing but pure speculation at this point.

talbain

11-22-06, 03:34 PM

actually Talbain, John Carmack said the PS3 is more powerful thouh he prefers the 360's symmetric CPU architecture (probably as it closer to what he is used to working on with PC's)

http://www.next-gen.biz/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1974&Itemid=36

yeah, except i've been hearing that from alot of developers...

also, there's no doubt that the 360's gpu is more powerful. if not for the cell there wouldn't even be a debate here...

2Channel

11-22-06, 03:48 PM

yeah, except i've been hearing that from alot of developers...

also, there's no doubt that the 360's gpu is more powerful. if not for the cell there wouldn't even be a debate here...

Thanks for the the heads up on this article. Here's the full interview.

http://popcultureshock.com/features.php?id=1248

And here's the intro to the interview.

John Carmack is one of the videogaming industry's elite icons. Credited with originating the first person genre of games, gaming would not be where it is today without this programmer. Not only does each game he releases redefine the genre in some way, but the technology behind it shapes the evolution of videogame graphics and sound in each generation. Even if you don't play his games, you'll be hard pressed to not feel the influence of them as the ideas and elements introduced in each one of his engines are used and adapted in some way industry-wide. As such, few can say they've affected the gaming scene as much as he has and the company he keeps in that respect is small. We recently had a chance to ask Mr. Carmack a few questions on a number of topics. If you want to know why he prefers the Xbox 360 to the PS3, what id's next projects are, what he thinks of the next generation of mobile graphics and more then read on as one of the greatest minds in videogames speaks.

b2bonez

11-22-06, 03:50 PM

Beg your pardon, but you did exactly that in this previous post:

Originally Posted by b2bonez
By subsidizing the A1 and A2, they have wielded a sword with two edges.

found on this thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8855958#post8855958

Again, you stated this as though it's a fact. Please back it up with evidence or admit that it is nothing but pure speculation at this point.

Well I guess you got me.. :) Speculating that the A2 is subsidized is a bit more of a stretch than the A1. They did leave out all of the fancy analog processing and kept the price the same. So you win, I guess we will see whenever the A2 get here... ;)

b2b

Kosty

11-22-06, 04:00 PM

Penalized? You mean people opting not to buy them? You mean people supporting a different format? Not sure how those qualify as "penalization." People can buy, or not buy, what they choose. Whether you agree or disagree with anyone's reasoning as to why they purchase and support a format and not the other has nothing to do with a format being "penalized." It's not as though there are government barriers to either, or unfair business practices going on, trust me, these companies would be in court faster than the blink of an eye if that were the case. People doing what they always do in a free market (buying what they want, not buying what they don't) is hardly a "penalty."

And the people here on this forum were offered HD-DVD players at half the price of BD players. if you're going to argue that "people here" shouldn't care what was offered to the studios, then the "people here" shouldn't care about what you, or anyone else, deems a "natural product cycle," either. If they shouldn't care about a company's marketing to studios, they shouldn't have to care about another's pricing, if the argument is going to be that "it's only what the people here can see."

If you think because of these announcements that BD50 is now the norm and the majority, and BD25 no longer is, you're either being disingenuous or you just don't know the numbers. By far, most titles are still BD25. You're equally naive, or still disingenuous, if you believe the studios were told that BD25 would be the norm, and BD50 the exception.

But this wasn't your point. Your point was "why are expectations so high and unfair for BD?" This is one of the reasons. They got people and studios to expect BD50 to be the norm. It still isn't. Their touting of storage superiority hasn't come to pass. The vast majority of their titles are still BD25, and the few BD50 titles, with all their storage "superiority" don't look or sound any better than HD-DVD 30's, and don't offer as much interactivity.

It sounds like you want to ask the question, but not listen to the answer. Your original question was:
More bandwidth didn't go away, neither did BD50, neither did "more studios." The truth of the matter is, that more bandwidth is still there, BD50 is trickling in (even if not honestly represented initially) and more studio support is still there, although some articles allude to the fact that the stuios have felt duped by BD. With all of these bullet points above, why is it so difficult for someone to expect better quality with these things? Would you expect COMPARABLE OR LESS PQ/AQ with more storage and bandwidth? Would you expect COMPARABLE OR LESS interactivity with more storage or bandwidth? I'm guessing not, unless you're really illogical or just deliberately trying to be obtuse.

The fact of the matter is that with all this "superiority" the titles as a whole don't look or sound any better, and still, there aren't as many of them even though there are more studios, and they're still lagging in interactivity (not just the software's fault, but still a combination of things within the format).

When there are fewer titles, and at best, BD is only sometimes comparable to HD-DVD PQ, and has less interactivity, and significantly higher priced stand-alone players, and a console that's next to impossible to get hold of...you think BD is winning Q4?

Wow. If that's what you truly believe, you really are either naive or disingenuous. The BDA raised expectations for Blu-ray in an attempt to kill HD DVD before it started. Now that the first Blu-ray player, the first Blu-ray movies, the first dual layer title, the PS3 have all failed to initially deliver on the hype as providing superior HD and in doing so costing more than HD DVD, no wonder studios, analysts, pundits, mainstream press reports and consumers are showing some signs of backlash.

To date, Blu-ray has over-promised and under-delivered. HD DVD has done the opposite.

Those criticisms of Blu-ray will continue and even accelerate as long as the performance doesn't match the hype. PR and spin alone cannot help the PS3 and the Blu-ray format, improved software and consistently high standards in new hardware releases and content that meet the standards that HD DVD has set can stop the bleeding.

The press and the studios are naturally biased toward Blu-ray at the point still, but Sony and the other Blu-ray supporters have to stop acting and sounding stupid and start delivering on their promises or being naturally will start feeling burned now that they actually have something to evaluate and it is below their expectations.

roma_victor

11-22-06, 04:06 PM

Well I guess you got me.. :) Speculating that the A2 is subsidized is a bit more of a stretch than the A1. They did leave out all of the fancy analog processing and kept the price the same. So you win, I guess we will see whenever the A2 get here... ;)

b2b

My point is not to win.
I actually agree with you that it would be bad for HD DVD if no other CE manufacturer can profitably make HD DVD players that are competitively priced with Toshiba's players.
What I don't agree with is your assumption that this is in fact the case because Toshiba's subsidy is continuing with the A2.
My point simply is that the burden is on those who think that the A2 is in fact a "below cost" player to prove that, and until and unless there is evidence for the subsidy such claims should not be made.

Peace?

chefboy1

11-22-06, 04:14 PM

Anyway, the idea is that people don't see any reason to support a format which is no better but twice the price. Is that hard to understand ?

With the recent release of the PS3, do you agree that there is no longer a price difference between each format? The 6 months HD-DVD enjoyed as the cheapest HD player certainly helped the format's acceptance, but going forward that argument does not exist.

Now we can focus on other aspects of the two formats beyond price. Personally, I'm still looking at studio support as the primary decision factor, as I care more about films than the technology delivery method. And right now, it appears Blu Ray is closest in being able to give me full access to all the movies in HD.

crussader

11-22-06, 04:26 PM

With the recent release of the PS3, do you agree that there is no longer a price difference between each format?

I don't agree. There are plenty of us that have no interest in adding a game console to our equipment racks to get HiDef optical.

Personally, I'm still looking at studio support as the primary decision factor, as I care more about films than the technology delivery method. And right now, it appears Blu Ray is closest in being able to give me full access to all the movies in HD.

The format that wins will get 100% of studio support.

As for current studio support, although BD has a greater number of studios in its camp, one shouldn't forget how massive the Universal library is.

nilsp

11-22-06, 04:35 PM

As for current studio support, although BD has a greater number of studios in its camp, one shouldn't forget how massive the Universal library is.

Well... Universal vs. Disney, Miramax, Dimension, Touchstone, Lionsgate, MGM, Columbia TriStar, Twentieth Century Fox.

They may have a massive library, but if I had to choose...

roma_victor

11-22-06, 04:36 PM

As for current studio support, although BD has a greater number of studios in its camp, one shouldn't forget how massive the Universal library is.

One should not simply count the number of studios supporting each format, as "support" is not equal among studios.
Universal has been very aggressive in supporting HD DVD and has put out a large number of good quality titles, and Fox has done a good job recently in supporting BD.
Disney has not released a lot on BD. Weinstein has not released any HD DVDs yet, but will do so next month. Ironically, Sony has been the worst in terms of its support of BD.

As for the two major "neutral" studios, Paramount has been truly neutral in releasing the same movies at the same time on both formats. WB, on the other hand is technically neutral but has in reality favored HD DVD so far both in releasing certain movies in HD DVD prior to BD (e.g. Batman Begins, V for Vendetta has not been announced for BD), and putting better/more extras on the HD DVD versions.

markrubin

11-22-06, 04:37 PM

amillians

11-22-06, 04:41 PM

To date, Blu-ray has over-promised and under-delivered. HD DVD has done the opposite.Well, that's not really fair. Both have overpromised to date.

HD DVD promised Pluto and reached the moon.

Blu-rya promised Alpha Centauri and reached low earth orbit.

Kosty

11-22-06, 04:50 PM

Peace

may I propose an AVS Cease Fire in the format battles in celebration of Thanksgiving

this should be a celebration of Thanks for many things including the HD optical disc, regardless of the format battle

:)I for one am happy of all the HD goodness I will watch this weekend, including my beloved Broncos on Thanksgiving day and all the new HD DVD movies I will watch before Monday.

I am also thankful for all you fellow AVS posters, lurkers and other members who have helped me understand this world of the new HD formats and have helped improve the HD world that we live in today.

Best wishes to all and your loved ones during this holiday weekend. :) :) :)

roma_victor

11-22-06, 04:51 PM

Peace

may I propose an AVS Cease Fire in the format battles in celebration of Thanksgiving

this should be a celebration of Thanks for many things including the HD optical disc, regardless of the format battle

:)

I agree. I have a follow-up proposal. In the spirit of the holidays, I propose that supporters of one format post something positive about the other format (without any sarcasm).
:)

As a HD DVD supporter, I'll start first and get things rolling:

I am very impressed with recent exclusive BD releases, especially from Fox. Titles such as BHD, KoH, Transporter, X3, Ice Age 2 and upcoming releases such as Pearl Harbor are either great films or at least great eye candy, and it is getting harder for me to resist buying a BD player or PS3.

Anyone else want to participate?

nilsp

11-22-06, 04:51 PM

One should not simply count the number of studios supporting each format, as "support" is not equal among studios.
Universal has been very aggressive in supporting HD DVD and has put out a large number of good quality titles, and Fox has done a good job recently in supporting BD.
Disney has not released a lot on BD. Weinstein has not released any HD DVDs yet, but will do so next month. Ironically, Sony has been the worst in terms of its support of BD.

As for the two major "neutral" studios, Paramount has been truly neutral in releasing the same movies at the same time on both formats. WB, on the other hand is technically neutral but has in reality favored HD DVD so far both in releasing certain movies in HD DVD prior to BD (e.g. Batman Begins, V for Vendetta has not been announced for BD), and putting better/more extras on the HD DVD versions.

Well, true, the truth is in the pudding*.

But just for fun, I looked up http://dvdlist.kazart.com/AFI_on_DVD.php3?page=1. Went through the list quickly. Roughly of the AFI 100 list 13 are Universal titles, 35 are Fox/Col/MGM titles. Clearly there having more studios is better than having one studio with many titles. But again, saying and doing are two very different things.

*) Pudding = actual released discs.

Kosty

11-22-06, 04:55 PM

I am glad that the dual layer releases are starting to show up and that may encourage other studios to release high quality movies on Blu-ray.

I also am glad that the picture quality on Blu-ray titles is starting to steadily improve and that VC-1 or MPEG-2 on DL50 discs may improve Blu-ray image quality.

Since both formats will probably survive, I want the best HD quality to be out there on every HD shiny disc.

markrubin

11-22-06, 05:02 PM

In the spirit of the holidays, I propose that supporters of one format post something positive about the other format (without any sarcasm).

Anyone else want to participate?

I was an early adopter of HD DVD and rent/buy every HD DVD disc available:

what I like most about BD is the titles exclusive to the Blu-Ray format: I preordered a Sony BD player and look forward to checking it out

still I wish there was a single format

Esox50

11-22-06, 05:52 PM

Well BD is supposed to be "beyond" high definition :p
Ha! You caught me alluding to this in my initial post. ;)

Anyway, the idea is that people don't see any reason to support a format which is no better but twice the price. Is that hard to understand ?
Well, let's face it though, "better" is defined by each person. To some people, more content is "better". To others, players that are actually responsive is "better". The list could go on and on. So, I don't buy the blanket statement that BD should deliver "more" because it costs twice as much (if you exclude the PS3). Right now, for some people it does deliver "more" content, more players, and more disc space?!?!?!? Is that better? The point is that both formats are capable of delivering 1920x1080 w/ lossless audio and added value content.

Here's a novel idea for everyone here... Discard all the garbage propoganda you read here, discard all the un-named sources in online articles, discard all the hearsay and bickering, and just take a step back. Neither HD DVD or BD "did" anything to anybody here. Go see the formats at the stores or at your families/friends houses. Judge the value proposition of each to you personally and don't worry about what anyone else says or heard. I suspect you'll see the light, and get back to being an A/V enthusiast and lover of movies in your home.

crussader

11-22-06, 05:58 PM

From where I sit, the biggest advantage that BD has is the bandwidth issue. That is the one thing I wish HD had a better answer for.

kjack

11-22-06, 06:09 PM

Well, let's face it though, "better" is defined by each person.And that definition will change over time.

kjack

11-22-06, 06:44 PM

Blu-ray vs. HD DVD: Knocking each other out?

In one corner are Sony, most movie studios and a number of consumer electronics makers pitching a technology called Blu-ray. In the other corner, with the HD DVD format, sit Microsoft and Intel along with their allied studios and consumer products companies. Both formats provide larger storage capacity than the current generation of DVDs and can store high-definition full-length movies. And both sides are well funded and unlikely to cave in. In the middle are a few consumer electronics makers hoping to create players that can play both formats at a reasonable cost.

http://news.com.com/Blu-ray+vs.+HD+DVD+Knocking+each+other+out/2030-1069_3-6137359.html?tag=nefd.top

MikeZ1998

11-22-06, 07:30 PM

In one corner are Sony, most movie studios and a number of consumer electronics makers pitching a technology called Blu-ray.
I don’t think so.
Most movie studios, a lot of indies and foreign distributors, are in the HD DVD camp => more HD DVDs available than BDs.

b2bonez

11-22-06, 07:49 PM

I don’t think so.
Most movie studios, a lot of indies and foreign distributors, are in the HD DVD camp => more HD DVDs available than BDs.

Bzzzt.. Wrong answer... Of the major studios HD-DVD has... Universal (HD-DVD only), Warner and Paramount (both HD-DVD & BluRay)

b2b

kjack

11-22-06, 07:56 PM

Since Sigma's statements surrounding the marketing of HD-DVD and Blu-ray players have been taken out of context, we would like to clear-up the confusion regarding our position.

Sigma provides media processor components that can be used in either Blu-ray or HD-DVD players and are working with a large number of consumer electronics manufacturers to bring products to market. However, we believe that consumers and the majority of the industry will be best served by the widespread support of a single standard and not universal players, which has become a notable topic recently.

Both standards provide excellent video quality - both support the same video codecs and mostly identical output formats, so the viewing experience is almost purely dependent on the quality of encoded content. Both standards provide adequate capacity for storing full-length HD movies (although Blu-ray currently offers greater storage and bitrates for increased interactivity and alternative track features). Both standards have about 100 titles currently available to seed their use and gain early adopters. Bottom line - the growth of either standard would bring us into the next generation of high definition video players with a far richer front-of-screen experience, and there is virtually no installed base of content to warrant universal support at this time.

So, what's needed to propel the market forward and convert mainstream DVD consumers to high definition? Simple - consumer confidence in the "right player", vastly more content, and lower prices.

What happens if we move down the path toward promoting and delivering universal players?

The "right universal players" will not likely show up on the market until the Christmas 2007 selling season ... the ability to produce universal players will be limited by the commercialization of new dual-format drives and the successful development of player software that flawlessly supports navigation and disc swapping between the two formats. Until then, consumers will remain confident that the "right player" doesn't yet exist.

Vastly more content would also not show up on the market until late next year ... until it is evident that there will be a substantial number of players to sell content for, the studios (and selling channels) will be reluctant to commit huge amounts of resource in the production and merchandizing of new content.

Lower universal player prices would not show up until the Christmas 2008 selling season … the creation of universal players would add substantial unit costs, including the dual-format drives, increased memory requirements, and nearly doubling the substantial royalties so that both standards get paid for their intellectual property. It will take another year beyond the first players to see cost and price reductions that enable real mainstream purchases to take place.

Moving forward, we have indicated that since the Blu-ray camp has attracted an overwhelming amount of consumer manufacturer support, the HD-DVD camp is under extreme pressure to establish a strong enough beachhead so they cannot be dislodged. At this time, Toshiba and Microsoft are the primary proponents behind HD-DVD, and the initial $499 player appeared to be subsidized by Toshiba to establish a higher level of initial demand. This in itself is not a bad thing, but is an indication that without real cost reductions from a larger industry infrastructure, and very high volumes, it will be difficult for player prices to move substantially downward from there.

Talkstr8t

11-22-06, 08:04 PM

pardon my ignorance here, but why would Kenneth Lowe EVEN care about what toshiba or microsoft is doing? how does this effect sigma designs?Because Toshiba and Microsoft propping up a format which has been rejected by the rest of the industry greatly impedes adoption of any next-generation format by consumers. Even if Sigma had just as many HD-DVD design wins as Blu-ray they would still be seeing far lower sales due to the format war.

Talkstr8t

11-22-06, 08:08 PM

Check this out - Samsung Joins DVD6C Licensing in Licensing DVD Patents

http://www.newswire.ca/en/releases/archive/November2006/20/c6828.html

I'm assuming this includes those applicable to HD DVD?

Could they be dotting their "i"s before their HD DVD excursion, perhaps?This just means rather than attempting to negotiate individual patent agreements with each manufacturer, they'll take their share of the whole pool. It ensures they are paid their due from the HD-DVD camp.

Kosty

11-22-06, 08:09 PM

http://www.thedigitalbits.com/articles/robertharris/harris112106.html

Having dealt with any number of online "stores," it always comes as a pleasant surprise when you find someone offering quality goods at extremely fair prices - that actually does more than send along an order to a fulfillment house and reap a quick reward in the form of a commission... had gone in the hope of securing the new Panasonic Blu-ray player, and my wishes were met, not only with a unit in stock, but with a price that surprised me.

Mr. Zohn knows his stuff. With a background of decades in the broadcast industry, he is a face known to those who frequent CEDIA and other conferences that are the mainstay of the industryCongrats for Robert at Value Electronics ( DTV Tivo Dealer here at AVS) to get a real positive mention from no less than Robert A Harris at the digital bits site for a pleasant experience selling him a Blu-ray player no less.

Whether you agree with his posts or not, its nice to have someone with practical experience selling this stuff around here.

Talkstr8t

11-22-06, 08:10 PM

WB, on the other hand is technically neutral but has in reality favored HD DVD so far both in releasing certain movies in HD DVD prior to BD (e.g. Batman Begins, V for Vendetta has not been announced for BD), and putting better/more extras on the HD DVD versions.The fact certain titles have been released on HD-DVD and not on Blu-ray does not reflect a preference for one format over the other. There are other considerations at play...

AnthonyP

11-22-06, 08:15 PM

Kosty

11-22-06, 08:16 PM

Because Toshiba and Microsoft propping up a format which has been rejected by the rest of the industry greatly impedes adoption of any next-generation format by consumers. Even if Sigma had just as many HD-DVD design wins as Blu-ray they would still be seeing far lower sales due to the format war. Many consumers like me are now enjoying high quality HD movies now on my less expensive HD DVD player and appreciate Microsoft and Toshiba "propping up" a format by giving currently giving me a better value the twice as more expensive Blu-ray players.

HD DVD does not seem to be rejected by consumers.

That fact may be eventually noticed by other manufacturers as more blue laser diodes become available and by studios as HD DVD disc sales increase.

You don't seem to be a big fan of consumer choice and competition.

Kosty

11-22-06, 08:21 PM

I've seen numerous posts from you asserting that HD DVD players (plural) are being subsidized, but not once have I seen you post any evidence or cost analysis showing that the A2 (or even the 360 add on) are "below cost" players. Unless and until there is such evidence or analysis, this is pure speculation. roma_victor: consider it is very old news and everyone knows it, why not just use search. People can't repeat everything that has been said over the past two years That is inaccurate.

iSuppli did the breakdown on the 1st generation players, most of us have agreed that the first generation players were sold before before cost.

http://www.digitaltvdesignline.com/products/189600999

But the second generation HD DVD players are another matter.

iSuppli has not said anything on the 2nd generation players. At Cedia several sources indicated to me that the costs on the HD A2 and HD E2 were considerably reduced and that they were probably going to break even if not make a small profit and that the higher priced HD XA2 and HD XE2 were going to be making money for Toshiba.

What'sHD

11-22-06, 08:31 PM

It's the cost, mostly. People who have bought into HD DVD are more than thrilled with the PQ they're obtaining, and so the ultimate question for them is, "Why switch to a more expensive solution?"

Typically people switch to something new because it is better or cheaper... and if BD doesn't fulfill either right now, from an HD DVD-fan standpoint, why is it even littering the landscape, preventing "us" from getting titles from Fox, MGM, Disney, and Columbia?

Now you can argue that BD will be a better solution for longer movies with more extras, but at this point that doesn't hold much water for HD DVD folks because there has so far been nothing to illustrate this superiority.

So I don't think it's "unrealistic expectations", per se, just "Why pay more for merely the same quality?" And Sony did not help with the first wave of titles, since the quality was not even up to the level of "the same".
If one defines the format only in technical terms, one appreciates their viewpoint.

But, the way this format war is defined includes Studio Support as a "feature" of the format.

To ignore that and say that situation Will change cos its not cast in stone is fine, but similarly, prices of BD will also change, imo. They aren't exactly cast in stone either.

And there is the 500 buck PS3 for movies and SACD.. my 2c

Esox50

11-22-06, 08:35 PM

At Cedia several sources indicated to me that the costs on the HD A2 and HD E2 were considerably reduced and that they were probably going to break even if not make a small profit and that the higher priced HD XA2 and HD XE2 were going to be making money for Toshiba.
Anyone have any reasonable or "decent" data to suggest the ratio of sales between the 1G A1 vs. the 1G XA1?

mikemorel

11-22-06, 08:42 PM

But, the way this format war is defined includes Studio Support as a "feature" of the format.Such a "feature" seems from an HD DVD supporters viewpoint to place studios and CE makers in front of consumers; to relegate the consumer to "the back of the bus" so to speak.

To ignore that and say that situation Will change cos its not cast in stone is fine, but similarly, prices of BD will also change, imo. They aren't exactly cast in stone either.And neither are HD-DVD prices cast in stone. They will similarly drop.

And there is the 500 buck PS3 for movies and SACD.. my 2cLast I looked on EBay it was over $1,000, and is "used goods" AFAIK. If I have to camp out in line for 3 days, risking life and limb to get one for $500, then it might as well not exist at that price point, for me anyway. YMMV.

What'sHD

11-22-06, 08:43 PM

Ha! You caught me alluding to this in my initial post. ;)

Well, let's face it though, "better" is defined by each person. To some people, more content is "better". To others, players that are actually responsive is "better". The list could go on and on. So, I don't buy the blanket statement that BD should deliver "more" because it costs twice as much (if you exclude the PS3). Right now, for some people it does deliver "more" content, more players, and more disc space?!?!?!? Is that better? The point is that both formats are capable of delivering 1920x1080 w/ lossless audio and added value content.

Here's a novel idea for everyone here... Discard all the garbage propoganda you read here, discard all the un-named sources in online articles, discard all the hearsay and bickering, and just take a step back. Neither HD DVD or BD "did" anything to anybody here. Go see the formats at the stores or at your families/friends houses. Judge the value proposition of each to you personally and don't worry about what anyone else says or heard. I suspect you'll see the light, and get back to being an A/V enthusiast and lover of movies in your home.
Nice

Esox50

11-22-06, 08:47 PM

The fact certain titles have been released on HD-DVD and not on Blu-ray does not reflect a preference for one format over the other. There are other considerations at play...
I think most of us expected that that was the case. Logic dictates it. In fact, the other day, kjack had posted a link to that new BD ad where WB was prominently mentioned as a "core" BD company. Additionally, earlier this year, someone posted trade ads from WB where WB encouraged the retailers to get behind both formats.

But hey, people will believe what they want to believe and post all kind of nonsense to back it up. And then of course, there is your "buddy" who, since earlier in the year, has been spreading the said garbage/myths about WB to make it seem like HD DVDs studio position is stronger than it really is. And one of the saddest things of this forum has been watching him actually USE individuals to suit his agenda here. But enough of that.

So, "other considerations"...
1.)Interactivity?
2.)TrueHD?
3.)more quanitity of BD50?
3.)Other...TBA :)

I know you probably cannot say anything, and you don't have to. Just me thinking aloud.

nataraj

11-22-06, 08:52 PM

With the recent release of the PS3, do you agree that there is no longer a price difference between each format?

No. You can't walk into a store and buy PS3 yet.

Besides you can easily get a $200 360 add-on ... and in a short while you may be able to use it in your DIY computer.

What'sHD

11-22-06, 08:55 PM

I agree. I have a follow-up proposal. In the spirit of the holidays, I propose that supporters of one format post something positive about the other format (without any sarcasm).
:)

As a HD DVD supporter, I'll start first and get things rolling:

I am very impressed with recent exclusive BD releases, especially from Fox. Titles such as BHD, KoH, Transporter, X3, Ice Age 2 and upcoming releases such as Pearl Harbor are either great films or at least great eye candy, and it is getting harder for me to resist buying a BD player or PS3.

Anyone else want to participate?
I am very impressed with the consistently high quality encoding of the HD-DVD titles.

I am also rather attracted to the add-on as good value for checking out HD-DVD titles, especially King Kong in HD (now, that is the s***, excuse my french) :D

AnthonyP

11-22-06, 08:56 PM

Mark: Not Thanks giving here, that happened a few weeks ago.

But I am thankful that in 2006 we finally got HD movies on disks at home. And wish that at least one of these formats takes over the disk media.

May the best format win.

What'sHD

11-22-06, 08:58 PM

Such a "feature" seems from an HD DVD supporters viewpoint to place studios and CE makers in front of consumers; to relegate the consumer to "the back of the bus" so to speak.

And neither are HD-DVD prices cast in stone. They will similarly drop.

Last I looked on EBay it was over $1,000, and is "used goods" AFAIK. If I have to camp out in line for 3 days, risking life and limb to get one for $500, then it might as well not exist at that price point, for me anyway. YMMV.
I agree with all of the above.

Believe me, my patience has been heavily tested by the PS3's delay and now, the shortage. But, I find it irresistibly good value (as I do the add-on), so I have to be patient.

P.S. Patience only seems a virtue in hindsight :)

Kosty

11-22-06, 08:59 PM

Anyone have any reasonable or "decent" data to suggest the ratio of sales between the 1G A1 vs. the 1G XA1? I remember a Toshiba rep telling me that the ratio was about 5:1 A1 to XA1.

My assumption was that about 50,000 A1's were made, 10,000 HD A2s were made and about 10,000 RCA and Walmarts clones were also produced. Plus or minus 10% for each category.

AFAIK I never saw any to conflict with that in naything I read and a lot that I recall that was consistent with those ballpark numbers.

But thats really history now as they are all shipped and off Toshiba's books now.

Now a lot depends on how quicky they can ramp up the second generation production.

mikemorel

11-22-06, 09:03 PM

HD DVD supporters talk Q4 '06 and beyond (http://www.engadgethd.com/2006/08/08/hd-dvd-supporters-talk-q4-06-and-beyond/)

Toshiba exec stated the cheaper A1 is outselling its more expensive counterpart by a ratio of 5-1, although that may not mean much as it is much more widely available. Of course they may have been quoting Kosty. :)

AnthonyP

11-22-06, 09:11 PM

That is inaccurate.

iSuppli did the breakdown on the 1st generation players, most of us have agreed that the first generation players were sold before before cost.

so Kosty why do you think that it is a different story. I believe it is a bit cheaper, but they needed to cut a lot to become profitable. If it is really that much cheaper (past the brake even point) my guess they would have also cut the wholesale price (it had lower margins for retailers) and possibly maybe even cut the MRSP a bit. It is still not a soc design that G2 was supposed to be and so the price could not have dropped as some of you think. A small drop in price could even help the sales. No matter how much people like to spin, I doubt neither studios nor Toshiba are happy with the sales so far.

Everything still points to the next version being subsidized. But I guess like the previous one most HD DVDers won’t admit it to themselves until the next version.

Esox50

11-22-06, 09:12 PM

But thats really history now as they are all shipped and off Toshiba's books now.

Now a lot depends on how quicky they can ramp up the second generation production.
Understood and agreed. I was just curious in light of your comments where you mentioned they'd probably break even on the 2G A2, and actually make some money on the XA2.

Then I look at kjack's latest post where he clarifies Sigma's position, and has some other interesting tidbits in there about the industry as a whole...really gets you thinking about this whole thing, you know?

Personally, each day I become more and more confident BD is going to win this thing. But that's just me and my $0.02. Earlier this year, I vowed not to do what I did with DVD, which was jump in early and wind up with all kinds of stupid discs/movies that I didn't need. Congo anyone? :) Also I went through players to get the latest and greatest...spent upwards of 2K on some of the early DVD players!!! Back then, coming from Laserdisc, it all seemed like a great deal to me. So, this time around, I will not jump in until 40 movies I'd consider "immediate purchase with long term replay value" are available on either format. That's going to be an expensive day!!! :)

hdkhang

11-22-06, 09:37 PM

@Esox50

I hear you, a while back it didn't seem so strange to drop 2K on a laserdisc player, I mean I dropped 1.1k on a VHS player and 1.2k on my first DVD player (which didn't even decode DTS). Now I look at upcoming prices on players and it's not the same story. Which is why PS3 and Xbox360 Add-on look interesting (apart from the fact that neither will do 5.1 analog output etc.) For me, the Add-on in a HTPC is looking to be the most interesting in the near term, it's been announced to available early next year in Australia for $249 AUD which is cheaper than I thought it would be (My guess was $300 AUD). Just have to wait for the software that can handle it all (including all the audio formats). Once that is available and I know what kind of PC power I'd need, I wouldn't feel at all hesitant to drop some coin on that. Even if the Xbox360 + Add-on works out to be cheaper and easier (I may still get the 360 for gaming anyway), I just don't want to get a AVR or Pre/Pro right now as decoding is still a bit iffy and I'd feel much safer putting money down on say a Creative X-Fi Elite soundcard or something of that nature. I guess they just feel like safer choices as the HTPC components have always got another home should I be disenchanted by the whole experience.

I get the feeling people would rather buy one machine that could play it all at 1 grand vs 2 machines needed to play it all at 500 each. Even though the end result is the same.

Also when I look at the prices in Australia, the price of the Samsung and the high End Toshiba players could buy me a nicer projector that would make viewing my current DVD collection more enjoyable... I believe even more enjoyable than watching HD content on my current projector.

Ramble ramble ramble...

Cheers...
Duy-Khang Hoang

nataraj

11-22-06, 09:40 PM

Ha! You caught me alluding to this in my initial post. ;)

Actually no. It is a running joke - I even had a signature based on that.

So, I don't buy the blanket statement that BD should deliver "more" because it costs twice as much (if you exclude the PS3).

Actually you do. Just that you think BD is better in some areas ... whereas the people who you said you don't understand, don't. ;)

Go see the formats at the stores or at your families/friends houses.

No need. Most of us have at least one format at home ...

b2bonez

11-22-06, 09:41 PM

No. You can't walk into a store and buy PS3 yet.

Besides you can easily get a $200 360 add-on ... and in a short while you may be able to use it in your DIY computer.

"Fate, it seems, is not without a sense of irony."
So about 15 minutes go by and as I walk back around I notice that the line has gotten a LOT smaller, but there now appear to be more PS3s available than people in the line. "Aww, hell... why not? Worst case scenario is I sell the darned thing or return it." It turns out that they only had a few 60GB versions, so quite a few people in line didn't buy one after they ran out. Bottom line is that I am now the owner of a bouncing baby PS3 20GB.

This is from a die hard HD-DVD fan... ;)

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=755349

b2b

mikemorel

11-22-06, 10:23 PM

Personally, each day I become more and more confident BD is going to win this thing. Personally, each day I become more and more confident that there is way more going on behind the scenes than the little bit we can glean from reading between the lines on some press release or interview.

BD "winning" this thing would require MS having to can the HD-DVD add on, give up HDi, lose all those VC-1 wins, incur the wrath of orphaned XBox HD DVD add on users, and get a very public black eye in the process. They have a formidable cash reserve, while expressing a keen desire to have their software be there in the digital home (which requires some involvement in the format's creation and administration by the way). Are you suggesting they would just give all that up and wait for the download market?

And I make this point again - every scarce blue laser diode on the HD-DVD side is going to a consumer who wants it to play movies, while the vast majority of scarce blue laser diodes on the BD side are going to consumers who may or may not even own an HDTV, or if they do, may be very busy playing games.

dialog_gvf

11-22-06, 10:38 PM

And I make this point again - every scarce blue laser diode on the HD-DVD side is going to a consumer who wants it to play movies, while the vast majority of scarce blue laser diodes on the BD side are going to consumers who may or may not even own an HDTV, or if they do, may be very busy playing games.

They better want a blue laser at some point, right?

Gary

b2bonez

11-22-06, 10:41 PM

Personally, each day I become more and more confident that there is way more going on behind the scenes than the little bit we can glean from reading between the lines on some press release or interview.

BD "winning" this thing would require MS having to can the HD-DVD add on, give up HDi, lose all those VC-1 wins, incur the wrath of orphaned XBox HD DVD add on users, and get a very public black eye in the process. They have a formidable cash reserve, while expressing a keen desire to have their software be there in the digital home (which requires some involvement in the format's creation and administration by the way). Are you suggesting they would just give all that up and wait for the download market?

And I make this point again - every scarce blue laser diode on the HD-DVD side is going to a consumer who wants it to play movies, while the vast majority of scarce blue laser diodes on the BD side are going to consumers who may or may not even own an HDTV, or if they do, may be very busy playing games.

I've seen you post that position many times and it's true. But selling HD "snow-cones" to videophiles dying of thirst in a desert of SD DVD isn't a particularly "hard sell". Getting the general public to buy-in is going to be the trick and one that the PS3 is trying to do.

b2b

crussader

11-22-06, 10:46 PM

...propping up a format which has been rejected by the rest of the industry greatly impedes adoption of any next-generation format by consumers...

Who gives a rip what the industry wants. How about what the consumers want? What a novel concept, eh?

Whichever format the consumers ultimately pick, the winning format will get 100% studio support and 100% CE support.

thomopolis

11-22-06, 10:55 PM

............

BD "winning" this thing would require MS having to can the HD-DVD add on, give up HDi, lose all those VC-1 wins, incur the wrath of orphaned XBox HD DVD add on users, and get a very public black eye in the process. They have a formidable cash reserve, while expressing a keen desire to have their software be there in the digital home (which requires some involvement in the format's creation and administration by the way). Are you suggesting they would just give all that up and wait for the download market?

....................

Formidable cash reserves??? Last I checked they had over $100 Billion sitting in accounts that they don't know what to do with, and that is even after they started handing out dividends. This is like saying OPEC has decent oil reserves.

MS could, if they wanted to buy several studios. They could launch there own CE company to put out a standalone player. Hell, if they wanted to they could open a bank online and put BofA out of business, start an airline to rival Virgin, and still have enough money left over to dabble in fusion reactors.

But just because they could, doesn't mean they should. It would not make since from a business point of view. Right now they are putting their absolute best foot forward with their encoder and the Add-on. If those things do not portend an HD-DVD victory, then they cannot prop it up forever without looking bad to investors. It took Sony ten years to pull the plug on Beta, but they should have after six when then public had spoken. Those who have bought an add-on can always be given coupons to buy other MS toys, but to be honest, they don't have to. Format war or not, obsolescence is a fact of life for CE buyers, and whoever wins there will be a lot of players going into closets when this is over.

In order for HD-DVD to win they absolutely have to get more studio support. They have an absolutely gorgeous picture, but in the long run it is going to be noticeable that big titles will be missing. This may make consumers relegated to the back of the bus, but that is life. Nothing can force studios to change other than profits.

dialog_gvf

11-22-06, 11:04 PM

The "right universal players" will not likely show up on the market until the Christmas 2007 selling season ... the ability to produce universal players will be limited by the commercialization of new dual-format drives and the successful development of player software that flawlessly supports navigation and disc swapping between the two formats. Until then, consumers will remain confident that the "right player" doesn't yet exist.

Considering how many delays the core company players have experienced delivering their one format boxes, thus far, one year seems rather short to solve all the issues with the respective formats and tackle the combo issues.

Gary

Esox50

11-22-06, 11:12 PM

Personally, each day I become more and more confident that there is way more going on behind the scenes than the little bit we can glean from reading between the lines on some press release or interview.
Uh yeah. I'm just surprised it's taken you this long to figure that out!!! :) OF COURSE there's a whole bunch of stuff going on behind the scenes. This is why I laugh when people here make some of the statements they do, as if they are in the meetings and "goings on" behind the scenes. I was going to touch upon this earlier today in response to a post directed at me, but cancelled the post. But suffice to say that people who post as if they know what certain companies are doing or being promised behind closed doors have no idea what they are talking about. Trust me on this from experience, sometimes people within the same organization have no idea what other people/divisions in their own organization are promising both internally and externally behind closed doors. It's business. So how do 22 year olds here have ANY idea what is going on in a company at which they do not even work?

BD "winning" this thing would require MS having to can the HD-DVD add on, give up HDi, lose all those VC-1 wins, incur the wrath of orphaned XBox HD DVD add on users, and get a very public black eye in the process. They have a formidable cash reserve, while expressing a keen desire to have their software be there in the digital home (which requires some involvement in the format's creation and administration by the way). Are you suggesting they would just give all that up and wait for the download market?
No, I think you're putting words in my mouth here. For example, I don't think VC-1 is going anywhere or would be "lost" if BD were to "win". BUT, and this is just one scenario I can think of, what if BD (or HD DVD for that matter, but there is the SPHE factor with that) were to take such a hold and get so much momentum that each and every one of the studios said, "Enough, HD DVD is dead, and we're not going to produce a double inventory anymore. BD is where the action is at. " Microsoft and Toshiba could still perhaps support the HD DVD format and not "can" the add-on, not lose VC-1 (with WB, Universal, etc), but for all practical purposes the format is toast and BD "won". Again, I'm not making a judgement either way or commenting on the likelihood of such a scenario. My point is that a "win" for either side isn't an "all or nothing" propsition for the other (or at least it doesn't have to be).

For me personally, a "win" would be the format that has an array of full featured players at multiple price points and 100% studio support with a steady flow of "buyable" titles. Again, that's my little "wonderful world, happy scenario", and i would consider THAT a "win" for the format that gets there first.

Esox50

11-22-06, 11:22 PM

Who gives a rip what the industry wants. How about what the consumers want? What a novel concept, eh?
You better give a rip what the industry wants, because if what you want is not sustainable, deliverable, and/or profitable for said industry...the industry consolidates, or there is less innovation, or there ceases to be an industry in and of itself, etc. It's a two way street my friend.

mikemorel

11-22-06, 11:55 PM

MS could, if they wanted to buy several studios. They could launch there own CE company to put out a standalone player. Hell, if they wanted to they could open a bank online and put BofA out of business, start an airline to rival Virgin, and still have enough money left over to dabble in fusion reactors.These are not viewed as even ancillary businesses for a software company to be in - but those that could be (say a studio, or record company) put them in a precarious position - controlling content companies as well as delivery of content. Hard to build trust and stay neutral...Sounds familiar....

But just because they could, doesn't mean they should. It would not make since from a business point of view. Right now they are putting their absolute best foot forward with their encoder and the Add-on. How about media centers, managed copy, cable card/Sat Card DVRs, streaming media through the home, transfer of movies to portable media (Zune) and stuff they are thinking about that we don't know about? Optical media provides the source for content until downloads get here in full force (and full bit rates). And it's impossible to believe MS will drop the HD add-on, slap a BD drive in the XBox 360 and pretend nothing happened.

If those things do not portend an HD-DVD victory, then they cannot prop it up forever without looking bad to investors.But can Sony stick it out if they only control 1/2 the optical video market after 3 years? The first year will be extremely difficult for them financially. If you look at the BD MPEG-LA group (http://www.mpegla.com/pid/bluray/) (which hasn't decided royalty shares from the format yet) that's quite a group that has to split royalties somehow and yet stay happy. And that doesn't include Sun Microsystems, et. al. Is there really that much money to be had in royalties when you have only 1/2 a market to split up (and a format war forcing prices down and killing profits)?

Wouldn't you agree that the investment has been much greater thus far on the BD side? What do they really have to show for their efforts? I'm not even sure that the PS3 launch even gave them lead in players at this point.

Michael Mullis

11-23-06, 12:03 AM

Because Toshiba and Microsoft propping up a format which has been rejected by the rest of the industry greatly impedes adoption of any next-generation format by consumers.

What about the fact that Sony and it's crew is propping up a format which was rejected by the very group who more or less oversees the DVD format? That hasn't impeded adoption of a next-generation format?

So now it's HD DVD's fault that Blu-ray isn't taking off yet?

May the best format win.

Still don't understand why one format has to "win". I'm betting they can both survive and all of us on both sides with our various players can enjoy our movies. Not you specifically Anthony, but it still amazes me how much the BD crowd cares about the destruction of HD DVD, as if it ran over their dogs one by one.

2Channel

11-23-06, 12:24 AM

Formidable cash reserves??? Last I checked they had over $100 Billion sitting in accounts that they don't know what to do with, and that is even after they started handing out dividends. This is like saying OPEC has decent oil reserves.

MS could, if they wanted to buy several studios. They could launch there own CE company to put out a standalone player. Hell, if they wanted to they could open a bank online and put BofA out of business, start an airline to rival Virgin, and still have enough money left over to dabble in fusion reactors.

But just because they could, doesn't mean they should. It would not make since from a business point of view. Right now they are putting their absolute best foot forward with their encoder and the Add-on. If those things do not portend an HD-DVD victory, then they cannot prop it up forever without looking bad to investors. It took Sony ten years to pull the plug on Beta, but they should have after six when then public had spoken. Those who have bought an add-on can always be given coupons to buy other MS toys, but to be honest, they don't have to. Format war or not, obsolescence is a fact of life for CE buyers, and whoever wins there will be a lot of players going into closets when this is over.

In order for HD-DVD to win they absolutely have to get more studio support. They have an absolutely gorgeous picture, but in the long run it is going to be noticeable that big titles will be missing. This may make consumers relegated to the back of the bus, but that is life. Nothing can force studios to change other than profits.

Great post Thomopolis. I'll add my two cents on a couple of items. Microsoft didn't enter this market by accident. This is something they've been building toward since the original Xbox release. I've never seen Microsoft back down from a fight, and I believe they understand that the opportunity is here and now. So a strategic retreat seems unlikely in this scenario. A deeper investment would be less surprising. These are just my opinions as a long time watcher of the company.

I believe that Kjack has touched on a point I've made earlier. I expect universal players by Christmas '07. I don't believe either format will score a knockout punch or throw in the towel between now and Christams '07. Once universal players ship, the entire equation changes.

b2bonez

11-23-06, 12:24 AM

How about media centers, managed copy, cable card/Sat Card DVRs, streaming media through the home, transfer of movies to portable media (Zune) and stuff they are thinking about that we don't know about? Optical media provides the source for content until downloads get here in full force (and full bit rates).

Every time I read a prediction like this, I wonder who is going to pay for what I guess is about a $500 billion dollar investment to make it happen. If you look at what has already been spent and what we have got (not much), I don't think anyone is going to spend that amount of money for movie downloads for a industry that only generates about $27 billion gross per year. The numbers just don't add up.

Take a look at some of the numbers in this article..
The study asserts that the cable operators have pumped the majority of their free cash flow into the industry’s $75 billion investment to upgrade its infrastructure and launch advanced broadband services. Consumer acceptance of these advanced services is evidenced by the sale of more than 34 million units of digital video, high-speed Internet and cable telephone services, the study says.

http://www.danielsonline.com/news/2003/bortz_study.html

b2b

Kosty

11-23-06, 12:38 AM

Well if MS is now making $75 for every Xbox sold and Sony is losing @250 for every PS3 sold, then it doesn't take a lot of units for that cashflow differential to add up.

2Channel

11-23-06, 12:42 AM

Every time I read a prediction like this, I wonder who is going to pay for what I guess is about a $500 billion dollar investment to make it happen. If you look at what has already been spent and what we have got (not much), I don't think anyone is going to spend that amount of money for movie downloads for a industry that only generates about $27 billion gross per year. The numbers just don't add up.

Take a look at some of the numbers in this article..

http://www.danielsonline.com/news/2003/bortz_study.html

b2b

This is an area I have some familiarity with. The investments are happening by multiple companies to do online movie delivery, and I would suggest that your guess as to the capital neccessary is high. We're still in the very early stages, but progress marches on unstopped.

Kosty

11-23-06, 12:58 AM

iSuppli did the breakdown on the 1st generation players, most of us have agreed that the first generation players were sold before before cost.so Kosty why do you think that it is a different story. I believe it is a bit cheaper, but they needed to cut a lot to become profitable. If it is really that much cheaper (past the brake even point) my guess they would have also cut the wholesale price (it had lower margins for retailers) and possibly maybe even cut the MRSP a bit. It is still not a soc design that G2 was supposed to be and so the price could not have dropped as some of you think. A small drop in price could even help the sales. No matter how much people like to spin, I doubt neither studios nor Toshiba are happy with the sales so far.

Everything still points to the next version being subsidized. But I guess like the previous one most HD DVDers won’t admit it to themselves until the next version. The design does not use as much silicon and the case and other components are less expensive as well as the model is expected to be produced in much larger quantities. All the G2 models share a lot of common components so the economies are increased.

The MSRP was not reduced as those price points are working at this time. The A1 sold as fast as it could be shipped, virtually by word of mouth, and so there is demand at the $499 price point still. With the Xbox 360 using the $199 price point a $199, $499 $799 pricing structure to get into HD DVD is a lot more rational than the Blu-ray $499/$599 $999 $1299 $1499 current MSRP pricing. Plus keeping the MSRP and MAP at $499 allows dealers teh flexibility to alter there pricing as market conditions dictate. No need to lower the MSRP if dealers can sell them at that point.

No matter how much people like to spin, I doubt neither studios nor Toshiba are happy with the sales so far. Untrue. Toshiba and the studios probably are very happy with the HD A1 and HD XA1 sales and attach rates. They've shipped and sold virtually all production and demand has exceeded supply and the attach rates are higher than SD DVD players. Its production constrained, not demand. The success of the HD A1 is in direct comparison to the failure of the Samsung. Its just that the volumes are still too small for major changes. Everyone is probably waiting for after XMas and for the blu-diode shortages to ease.
But thats really history now as they are all shipped and off Toshiba's books now Now a lot depends on how quicky they can ramp up the second generation production.. Understood and agreed. I was just curious in light of your comments where you mentioned they'd probably break even on the 2G A2, and actually make some money on the XA2....

... So, this time around, I will not jump in until 40 movies I'd consider "immediate purchase with long term replay value" are available on either format. That's going to be an expensive day!!! I have already reached that point with HD DVD as there are more than 40 movies there I want to own. Soon it will get that way with Blu-ray for me also.

Once more movies are on the street in each format. content becomes less of an issue. After all an average person can't even watch 100 movies in a year. Once there's more than that available that he likes, then thats a critical mass of content.

Kosty

11-23-06, 01:19 AM

Some more info on the PS3 non 720p downconversion issue.

Sony has acknowledged the issue.

http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=5032

http://dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=4971

b2bonez

11-23-06, 01:26 AM

Untrue. Toshiba and the studios probably are very happy with the HD A1 and HD XA1 sales and attach rates. They've shipped and sold virtually all production and demand has exceeded supply and the attach rates are higher than SD DVD players. Its production constrained, not demand. The success of the HD A1 is in direct comparison to the failure of the Samsung. Its just that the volumes are still too small for major changes. Everyone is probably waiting for after XMas and for the blu-diode shortages to ease.

Well you can put a happy face on it all you want, but 70,000 players at half the price of the competition isn't an earth shattering number. In the single month of Oct. 1997 DVD sold 56,407 players. That was "early adopter" numbers too. Neither HD-DVD or BD is generating a lot of interest with the public yet.

b2b

kjack

11-23-06, 02:43 AM

Getting the general public to buy-in is going to be the trick and one that the PS3 is trying to do.(1)There is more than one way to skin a cat and (2) never take on a competitor head on based on price.

If I were a BD CE company, my thought would be let HD-DVD be sold based on it's low price to the current HDTV owners. It's doing a great job at that.

I would target new HDTV buyers, where the real growth is, offering my BD player with their new purchase of my HDTV, which is were the real money is probably made. Bigger the HDTV, the deeper the player discount. Big enough HDTV, get it for free... so average effective price may be $500 without advertising it. Plus consumer feels like they are getting a great deal. Win-win.

The BD player could then easily be added inside next year's networked HDTVs for $150 or so incremental cost. Every new BD HDTV sold is then also a new BD player sold, which would be a very large volume ramp if most BD CE companies did this.

Why treat players a stand-alone products that have to battle it out in the marketplace based solely on features and price?

b2bonez

11-23-06, 03:20 AM

(1)There is more than one way to skin a cat and (2) never take on a competitor head on based on price.

If I were a BD CE company, my thought would be let HD-DVD be sold based on it's low price to the current HDTV owners. It's doing a great job at that.

I would target new HDTV buyers, where the real growth is, offering my BD player with their new purchase of my HDTV, which is were the real money is probably made. Bigger the HDTV, the deeper the player discount. Big enough HDTV, get it for free... so average effective price may be $500 without advertising it. Plus consumer feels like they are getting a great deal. Win-win.

The BD player could then easily be added inside next year's networked HDTVs for $150 or so incremental cost. Every new BD HDTV sold is then also a new BD player sold, which would be a very large volume ramp if most BD CE companies did this.

Why treat players a stand-alone products that have to battle it out in the marketplace based solely on features and price?

Interesting thoughts... I'm sure Sigma has some silicon hot off the foundry just waiting to fill that need.. :)

Now that analog TV is on it's death bed and digital is going to turn them into fracking computers anyway, they might as well be really slick units with built in BD drives and a network connection.

Oh, the joys of Java in the livingroom ..... :D

b2b

nilsp

11-23-06, 03:45 AM

Hey, maybe the Thanksgiving thing is actually working. Seems things are nicer around here now.

My happiness about HD DVD:

* Excellent software launch! The quality we expected with very few exceptions!
* The above put crappy Blu-ray releases in a really bad light, thank goodness!
* Cheap players. Good move for consumers by Toshiba! :-)
* Excellent support from Universal, nice to have a studio really serious about HD!
* Serenity is out on HD DVD.. :) (Now I just need a player...)

What'sHD

11-23-06, 04:07 AM

Here's a Xmas 2007 wish:

A 1080p 50 inch Bravia with PS3 built in.

Hard disk expanded to a TB, Linux installed with some Media Center s/w and we are good to go.

Grubert

11-23-06, 04:44 AM

Not totally related, but hopefully you'll like it:

Score an X-Box 360 for $100 (http://www.joystiq.com/2006/11/22/score-an-xbox-360-for-100/)

Starting tomorrow [for today] at 11AM PST, keep your fingers poised over your keyboard and be ready to swoop in and buy it, even if it means tearing yourself away from Aunt Mary's sweet potato pie. They'll be offering up 1,000 of these suckers, but you must wait until Thursday at 11AM (again, Pacific time, folks) and buy it via the Amazon Customers Vote Page (http://www.amazon.com/gp/amabot/?pf_rd_url=%2Fgp%2Fholiday%2Fcv%2Fhomepage%2F104-8894760-2697501&pf_rd_p=258768101&pf_rd_s=special-offers-5&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=B000B43OXU&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=08FGZP32DHDMS57NNNF2/104-8894760-2697501) in order to receive the discount, not the regular product page.

Remember that Amazon had the Wii go on sale on Sunday and it sold out in one minute, so make sure you're properly adrenalized before this sale. We recommend doing some strong finger workouts tonight in preparation.

UxiSXRD

11-23-06, 04:47 AM

I hate TV's with integrated players. Nightmare if you ever need work done on just the player.

Well if MS is now making $75 for every Xbox sold and Sony is losing @250 for every PS3 sold, then it doesn't take a lot of units for that cashflow differential to add up.

To be fair, they still have make up for when they were losing money on the 360 (which was at launch and for most of the year). At least according to the people who say the PS3 is losing that much money now.

The MSRP was not reduced as those price points are working at this time. The A1 sold as fast as it could be shipped, virtually by word of mouth, and so there is demand at the $499 price point still. With the Xbox 360 using the $199 price point a $199, $499 $799 pricing structure to get into HD DVD is a lot more rational than the Blu-ray $499/$599 $999 $1299 $1499 current MSRP pricing.

$199? You need to include the price of the 360 itself for this to be apples to apples with the $499/$599 (PS3) BD comparison. And the days of $799 are done for HD-DVD since HD-XA1's are going for ~$500 at the few places they have them left and there are no A1's left. Of course the A2 will pick up the $499 slot, but you should include the $999 XA2... when these two are finally up for sale that is.

rdjam

11-23-06, 05:56 AM

Ha! You caught me alluding to this in my initial post. ;)

Well, let's face it though, "better" is defined by each person. To some people, more content is "better". To others, players that are actually responsive is "better". The list could go on and on. So, I don't buy the blanket statement that BD should deliver "more" because it costs twice as much (if you exclude the PS3). Right now, for some people it does deliver "more" content, more players, and more disc space?!?!?!? Is that better? The point is that both formats are capable of delivering 1920x1080 w/ lossless audio and added value content.
Fair point - but I'd add that most folks will only be buying one player, and so "having lots of players" is not a feature/benefit unless that enables them to make a great player selection at a good price.

The A2, at the low end, offers a great price, and beats almost all of the (more expensive) bluray players on functionality and features - and gives you TruHD, DD+ and DTS-HD decoding.

At the "high end", the XA2 beats every single one of the bluray players without exception, on functionality and features, giving 1080p (including, reportedly, 1080p24), deep color, in-player calibration, DTS-HD, DD+ and TRuHD decoding - all at a price lower than any of the "high end" bluray players.

And I'd remind everyone that HD DVD releases (including preorders "in the pipe") are at about 150, while BD releases are at about 102 - so HD DVD offers more content at this time.

Which leaves the only BD potential advantage as 50 gig discs - which only make up a small portion of BD releases, since most are at 25 Gig.

rdjam

11-23-06, 06:04 AM

The BD player could then easily be added inside next year's networked HDTVs for $150 or so incremental cost. Every new BD HDTV sold is then also a new BD player sold, which would be a very large volume ramp if most BD CE companies did this.
Yes, that would be great for Sigma! :p Good marketing Keith! :)

Trouble is, few people actually like to buy decent sets with built-in standard DVD players, let alone a risky HD format like Bluray.

The only sets that have successfully sold with built-in DVDs have been the cheapo combo players for the kitchen or dorm, which are so cheap that they would neither support HD panels, nor an extra $150 in maufacturing cost to add the drive...

Grubert

11-23-06, 06:43 AM

Head-to-head review of the PS3's Blu-ray capabilities and the HD DVD add-on for the Xbox 360 on highdefdigest (http://www.highdefdigest.com/feature_ps3vsxbox360addon.html).

nilsp

11-23-06, 07:10 AM

Fair point - but I'd add that most folks will only be buying one player, and so "having lots of players" is not a feature/benefit unless that enables them to make a great player selection at a good price.

True. But when the customer gets to the store, he can either buy Toshiba or Sony, Pioneer, Panasonic, Samsung, Philips, PS3. (Ok, Ok, not TODAY.) Some customers might ask: "Why only Toshiba?" Which is then followed up with "What are the differences?" "Oh, no Disney, Fox, Sony?"

The A2, at the low end, offers a great price, and beats almost all of the (more expensive) bluray players - and gives you TruHD, DD+ and DTS-HD decoding.
Beats on price, yes, but do we know it'll beat them on the rest?

At the "high end", the XA2 beats every single one of the bluray players without exception, giving 1080p (including, reportedly, 1080p24), deep color, in-player calibration, DTS-HD, DD+ and TRuHD decoding - all at a price lower than any of the "high end" bluray players.
Reportedly? Or for a fact? Do we know? We don't know for sure, do we? Again, should we not wait for actual reviews?

And I'd remind everyone that HD DVD releases (including preorders "in the pipe") are at about 150, while BD releases are at about 102 - so HD DVD offers more content at this time.
With the emphasis on "at this time." And I'd remind everyone that HD DVD had a "small" head start and we're still less than a year into the new formats. Lets count again in 6 months.

Which leaves the only BD potential advantage as 50 gig discs - which only make up a small portion of BD releases, since most are at 25 Gig.
The only BD potential advantage? Should you not mention Fox, Sony, Buena Vista etc.? Higher bandwidth as extras gets more advanced with time? I would.

markrubin

11-23-06, 07:24 AM

ILJG

11-23-06, 07:33 AM

Lets count again in 6 months.

Ah yes. The BD mantra. "Just You Wait....We Mean It...It Will Be....Give Us 6 More Months...."

Sorry, and yes, Happy Thanksgiving! :)

Michael Mullis

11-23-06, 09:23 AM

$199? You need to include the price of the 360 itself for this to be apples to apples with the $499/$599 (PS3) BD comparison.

No, you don't, not all the time. There is ALREADY A BASE OF XBOX 360 OWNERS. I did not have to put out $499 when I walked into the store to get the add-on! I spent $199. Actually, I spent $159 because I had a Best Buy gift card too!

For many people, $499 is simply not necessary. That's just the reality of it. If you're buying fresh, then ok. But to continue to forget about Xbox 360's current base is not right.

mikemorel

11-23-06, 09:51 AM

Amir on EDN, talking about a wide variety of topics...Happy Thanksgiving! :)

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=755600

Grubert

11-23-06, 11:01 AM

PS3 launch light by half (http://www.videobusiness.com/article/CA6394173.html)
"Blu-ray, HD DVD software sales see bump from new players"

Lots of sales figures, projections, quotes and other bickering ammunition. Knock yourselves out!

amillians

11-23-06, 11:16 AM

MSFT forces Sigma to say uncle...

Kenneth Lowe, Sigma Designs vp-business development & strategic mktg., says he “misspoke” in claiming Microsoft subsidizes HD DVD so entry-level Toshiba decks can be priced as low as $499 (CED Nov 22 p4).

Lowe spoke after Microsoft executive Christopher Carper, of the company’s Consumer Media Technology Group, contacted him to say Microsoft doesn’t subsidize HD DVD and asked him to set the record straight with Consumer Electronics Daily.

Gobble, gobble.

mikemorel

11-23-06, 11:25 AM

PS3 launch light by half (http://www.videobusiness.com/article/CA6394173.html)
"Blu-ray, HD DVD software sales see bump from new players"

Even Blu-ray Disc-backing studios were left guessing at what Sony shipped. Can't say I'm surprised by that.

“Most people would not buy a PS3 to have a Blu-ray player,” Best Buy spokesman Brian Lucas said.Not a surprise here either...

Last week also marked the debut of the Xbox 360 HD DVD add-on. Microsoft didn’t give shipment numbers, but one industry source estimated the company put out 100,000 units. I'd say it's a toss up who has the most units out now. Of course, everyone owning the HD DVD player will buy (and/or rent) movies...

smithfarmer

11-23-06, 11:39 AM

Head-to-head review of the PS3's Blu-ray capabilities and the HD DVD add-on for the Xbox 360 on highdefdigest (http://www.highdefdigest.com/feature_ps3vsxbox360addon.html).
It's surprising he did not know that his 360 is capable of outputting a 1080P signal.

Paul_Seng

11-23-06, 11:58 AM

No, you don't, not all the time. There is ALREADY A BASE OF XBOX 360 OWNERS. I did not have to put out $499 when I walked into the store to get the add-on! I spent $199. Actually, I spent $159 because I had a Best Buy gift card too!

For many people, $499 is simply not necessary. That's just the reality of it. If you're buying fresh, then ok. But to continue to forget about Xbox 360's current base is not right.
I don't understand why this has to be explained over and over again. Most people who bought the 360 bought it for gaming only. There was no option at the time that people could buy the add-on. Those people also have had the opportunity to play games on their 360 for months before even thinking about the add-on. Unlike the PS3, it's not a "pay at once" price for the whole thing. You can buy the core or the $399 one . If you like the gaming part of it and you think you want to try the add-on (yes I said try because here in the states at practically every store you can return everything in a certain amount of time) and if you like it you keep it. if not you get your money back and still get to keep the console for gaming and now online HD stuff (still downloading Poseidon to check it out.)
Unlike the PS3, if you don't care for the blu ray movies you can't just return that part and get some money back and still play the games.

rdjam

11-23-06, 12:01 PM

Ah yes. The BD mantra. "Just You Wait....We Mean It...It Will Be....Give Us 6 More Months...."

Sorry, and yes, Happy Thanksgiving! :)
Yes EXACTLY! :p

..Happy Thanksgiving! :D

Michael Mullis

11-23-06, 12:08 PM

Paul, unless you're adding on to my point, what you're saying has very little to do with what I am saying. I think we're making two seperate points here.

chefboy1

11-23-06, 12:28 PM

dialog_gvf

11-23-06, 12:28 PM

The BD player could then easily be added inside next year's networked HDTVs for $150 or so incremental cost. Every new BD HDTV sold is then also a new BD player sold, which would be a very large volume ramp if most BD CE companies did this.

Why treat players a stand-alone products that have to battle it out in the marketplace based solely on features and price?

Are you just thinking out loud, or have you gotten some indication that CE are considering going this way?

Hopefully, like a PC, the drive would be consumer replaceable. In case of failure, or wishing to upgrade.

Gary

Rob Zuber

11-23-06, 12:33 PM

Lowe spoke after Microsoft executive Christopher Carper, of the company’s Consumer Media Technology Group, contacted him..."Don't take sides with anyone against the Family again. Ever."

mikemorel

11-23-06, 12:55 PM

"Don't take sides with anyone against the Family again. Ever."Sigma guy admits that he was talking without facts in claiming Microsoft subsidizes HD DVD - Are you saying MS is strong-arming Toshiba?

Link? Source? Anything at all to back that one up? :rolleyes:

lymzy

11-23-06, 12:56 PM

It's surprising he did not know that his 360 is capable of outputting a 1080P signal.

He knew. Quote " and this is without having tested the Xbox 360 using its newly 1080p-capable VGA outs. "

lymzy

11-23-06, 01:04 PM

Are you just thinking out loud, or have you gotten some indication that CE are considering going this way?

Keith mentioned some display makers was going this way last year or early this year. He would not disclose the names. My guesstimate is Samsung or Pioneer. DLNA capable TV is a very elegant solution. I hope someone could also do TV with media extender built in. HD DVD certainly needs to bring out some important new features to keep ahead of blu-ray. PQ/Audio was a thing of past. I wish MC/MMC could come to HD DVD first. At least HD DVD should bring the tea party/online content update thing before blu-ray does.

smithfarmer

11-23-06, 01:24 PM

He knew. Quote " and this is without having tested the Xbox 360 using its newly 1080p-capable VGA outs. "

And while we originally wrote that the current generation of the Xbox 360 only offers 1080i playback via Component video and Dolby Digital 5.1 audio via optical cable, some readers were quick to point out that (thanks to an Oct 31st dashboard update) the unit can now output HD DVD playback in 1080p via VGA cables, assuming your monitor has a VGA connection.

He edited the article after I read it. I am able to send a 1080P signal from the 360 over component to my projector and my projector reports it as receiving a 1080P signal. This may apply only to games though as I don't have an add-on to check it out.

thomopolis

11-23-06, 01:25 PM

psycho babble ahead......

-every HD-Addon will be used for movies - how many sold and how much they are used remains to be seen
-every PS3 has the potential to be used for movies - how many and how much remains to be seen.

the only interesting question left to answer - and this from an MBA point of view rather than an HD disc one - if the HD-Addon tops out at 500K sold, will that directly correlate to only 5% of PS3 owners using it for movies?

In other words; what is better for the seller; making something really cheap for the consumer but requiring them to choose to buy it, or bundling it with something they were going to buy anyway?

The only correlary I can think of in the CE world is for DishNetwork. When you move they ask you to leave the dish attached at the old house, then install one free at the new. When the new owners move in they contact them to see if they want to be subscribers. Because the dish is already attached to the house, this subscription rate is about 4 times higher than society as a whole.

Whether or not this translates to HD discs will be interesting to see.

This format war is turning into one of the most interesting consumer psychological experiments in decades, as opposed to the discussions here which are more psychotic. ;)

nataraj

11-23-06, 01:26 PM

Blu-ray player sales have now permanently surpassed HD-DVD player sales!

Considering the dismal number of PS3s that were shipped, I wonder whether this is correct. This is getting hilarious. :D

nataraj

11-23-06, 01:29 PM

In other words; what is better for the seller; making something really cheap for the consumer but requiring them to choose to buy it, or bundling it with something they were going to buy anyway?

The important part you missed is - what happens if the bundling causes the main product to increase in price, come to market very late and in small numbers.

lymzy

11-23-06, 01:33 PM

the only interesting question left to answer - and this from an MBA point of view rather than an HD disc one - if the HD-Addon tops out at 500K sold, will that directly correlate to only 5% of PS3 owners using it for movies?

HTPC users will also buy the addon.

b2bonez

11-23-06, 01:38 PM

Considering the dismal number of PS3s that were shipped, I wonder whether this is correct. This is getting hilarious. :D

Yep, it's terrible for PS3... Street vendors on every corner hawking "get your PS3 right here !" trying to unload them... ;)

What's hilarious is MS employees pretending that a total sell out of PS3 through the holidays is "dismal". Maybe it is... if you're MS... :)

b2b

thomopolis

11-23-06, 01:45 PM

The important part you missed is - what happens if the bundling causes the main product to increase in price, come to market very late and in small numbers.

I think that is ancillary to the question. That is more for who wins the actual game war and format war, not the percentage penetration of HD users.

Even if the PS3 only sells 1 million units total, but the percentage of HD users ends up being 20% vs. XBox360's 5% the win from a business method point of view would still be toward the bundling model. The message would be, "bundle, but don't take so ****** long to get your product out that you lose anyway." So good info for MBA schools, but lousy outcome for Sony and BluRay.

Another large experiment would have to be done to confirm.

thomopolis

11-23-06, 01:49 PM

HTPC users will also buy the addon.

if HTPC DVD user pentration is an indication, that would be even less noise than the number of people who are buying the PS3 just for the movies.

Both must be considered, but really only factor in if the numbers are exteremely close.

nataraj

11-23-06, 01:53 PM

Even if the PS3 only sells 1 million units total, but the percentage of HD users ends up being 20% vs. XBox360's 5% the win from a business method point of view would still be toward the bundling model.

Actually not. If PS3 sells only 1M that would be a disaster for Sony.

You have to look at your total business. Not just what PS3 does to BD - but also what BD does to PS3.

Michael Mullis

11-23-06, 01:53 PM

This is absolutely ridiculous. The total cash outlay for full functional HD-DVD playback on the 360 is still $499. By your argument, the cheapest cost of a Blu-Ray player is $0. If I buy the PS3 today for the sole purpose of playing RFOM and NHL 2K7, but decide to try a Blu Ray movie in a couple of months, then my actual cost for BR playback is $0. It that what you want on this forum - BR fans claiming the cheapest solution available is the PS3 at zero cost?!?

Ok fine, lets extrapolate it out then. Your PS3 or BR player then doesn't cost $499. It costs $499 plus whatever you spent on your HDTV whenever you purchased it. Oh, and whatever stereo receiver you purchased however long ago you purchased it.

Should I keep going?

Let me try this once again, because there seems to be something you guys on the "We hate HD DVD" train continue to not get. The money I spent on my Xbox 360 was spent LAST YEAR. It is a SUNK COST. Much like the SUNK COST of my HDTV, my receiver, my remote control, etc:. When I walked into Best Buy, I DID NOT OUTLAY $499 TO START PURCHASING HD DVD'S. Why is this not registering with you? The whole "total outlay" arguement is not valid when you're attempting over and over to compare it to purchasing a PS3.

$200 is less than $499. You can close your eyes, put your hands over your ears, and scream LA LA LA LA I HATE HD DVD all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that when I entered the store, I was able to outlay $159 and a Best Buy gift card, and by the next hour I was watching HD movies.

Take it, leave it. I really don't care.

UxiSXRD

11-23-06, 01:57 PM

Not all of us are coming from teh "hate HD-DVD" perspective, though. I'm not a format partisan, I just want HD goodness in whatever media will deliver the content I want. I'll get a PS3 for the same reason I got the 360: I'm a gamer. That the PS3 will let me sample BD is just icing on the cake since I can't get Black Hawk Down, Kingdom of Heaven, etc from HD-DVD.

You're simply not being fair by leaving out the cost of the 360 console, be it Core or Premium. An appropriate analogy to any preexisting cost of the 360 (for previous owners like myself) is financing. I may have bought my 360 outright, but I still calculate it in the of the player. Where the 360 add-on IS great is that I got it for less than half the price the XA1 I was considering would have cost. Part of me still wants the XA1... my receiver has ready and waiting analog inputs and my TV wants the HDMI. I see where your comparison applies but I don't think it's apples to apples with a hypothetical j6p who is not a gamer (and non gamers are extremely, if not entirely unlikely to be prior 360 owner).

I also got my add on for $159 (thank you Jerk it City coupon!), and it's a marvelous value and one where I'm willing to tolerate the noise of the 360 and the component/optical output for that marvelous PQ...

thomopolis

11-23-06, 04:45 PM

Actually not. If PS3 sells only 1M that would be a disaster for Sony.

You have to look at your total business. Not just what PS3 does to BD - but also what BD does to PS3.

Nat - whole post, please read.

So good info for MBA schools, but lousy outcome for Sony and BluRay.

Yes, Sony may tank and go the way of the dodo. I was talking about the question of whether trojan horses work or not. This can be applied elsewhere even if BluRay dies.

chefboy1

11-23-06, 04:48 PM

Let me try this once again, because there seems to be something you guys on the "We hate HD DVD" train continue to not get. The money I spent on my Xbox 360 was spent LAST YEAR. It is a SUNK COST. Much like the SUNK COST of my HDTV, my receiver, my remote control, etc:. When I walked into Best Buy, I DID NOT OUTLAY $499 TO START PURCHASING HD DVD'S. Why is this not registering with you? The whole "total outlay" arguement is not valid when you're attempting over and over to compare it to purchasing a PS3.

$200 is less than $499. You can close your eyes, put your hands over your ears, and scream LA LA LA LA I HATE HD DVD all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that when I entered the store, I was able to outlay $159 and a Best Buy gift card, and by the next hour I was watching HD movies.

Take it, leave it. I really don't care.Before you accuse me of being a HD DVD-hater, perhaps you should check out my posting history. Not once in the two years on this forum have I ever bad-mouthed either HD-DVD or Blu Ray. I see the benefits of both formats, although my leanings is towards BR right now.

However, I do have an issue with your "creative accounting" method that tries to make the add-on appear to be the low $199 cost solution. Heck, that's why it's called an add-on, you need the main Xbox 360 component for it to function at all. Your HDTV, receiver and remote does not depend on an another specific piece of equipment in order for it to work and are interchangable components - that qualifies it as sunk costs, not the timing of the 360 purchase.

Unless, of course, you're willing to admit that PS3 gamers truly has the cheapest route into the realm of HD movies on disc - FREE.

thomopolis

11-23-06, 04:48 PM

........................

Let me try this once again, because there seems to be something you guys on the "We hate HD DVD" train continue to not get. The money I spent on my Xbox 360 was spent LAST YEAR. It is a SUNK COST. Much like the SUNK COST of my HDTV, my receiver, my remote control, etc:. When I walked into Best Buy, I DID NOT OUTLAY $499 TO START PURCHASING HD DVD'S. Why is this not registering with you? The whole "total outlay" arguement is not valid when you're attempting over and over to compare it to purchasing a PS3.

.......................

you keep talking about your situation. It may be relevant to you, and to 6 million others in the country, but this is not the Mike Mullis forum or the I Own an XBox360 forum, but the AVS forum - so it's relevance over all, and your need to repeat it over and over, is not so great.

nataraj

11-23-06, 04:51 PM

Your HDTV, receiver and remote does not depend on an another specific piece of equipment in order for it to work and are interchangable components - that qualifies it as sunk costs, not the timing of the 360 purchase.

Now that is some creative accounting definition. Sunk Cost is a well recognized accounting principle. He is using it correctly.

If you want something creative, how is this.

Buy PS3 for $600. Sell it on flebay and make $200. Buy hd dvd of that money. So the effective cost is zero :D

nilsp

11-23-06, 05:07 PM

Ah yes. The BD mantra. "Just You Wait....We Mean It...It Will Be....Give Us 6 More Months...."

Sorry, and yes, Happy Thanksgiving! :)

An answer just as expected. With the obligatory :). And as expected rdjam is happy to chime along. How predictable.

OK. We'll see then, in 6 months. (I'll bookmark and do it for you, how nice is that?) But I must say I'm surprised that grown men (I assume) expect 1) instant availability of all titles when a format launches, 2) that studios will be more than happy to flood the market with titles when there are very few players out there, 3) that there will be millions of discs made when duplication facitilites are limited early on when bringing out brand new technology etc. But hey, that is just me.

I'm really looking forward to lots of titles coming out in the next 6 months, especially titles from Disney, Miramax, Dimension, Touchstone, Lionsgate, MGM, Columbia TriStar and Twentieth Century Fox. :rolleyes:

chefboy1

11-23-06, 05:08 PM

Now that is some creative accounting definition. Sunk Cost is a well recognized accounting principle. He is using it correctly.

However, the discussion began from this:
The MSRP was not reduced as those price points are working at this time. The A1 sold as fast as it could be shipped, virtually by word of mouth, and so there is demand at the $499 price point still. With the Xbox 360 using the $199 price point a $199, $499 $799 pricing structure to get into HD DVD is a lot more rational than the Blu-ray $499/$599 $999 $1299 $1499 current MSRP pricing.

The cost of a stand-alone HD DVD solution does not begin at $199, unless you want to amend the cost of a Blu-Ray solution to $0 $499/$599 $999 $1299 $1499. Do you agree, or in fact isn't that misleading too? And that being the case, why don't we throw in the BR & HD DVD drives as well, since a PC certainly would qualify as a sunk cost...

WiFi-Spy

11-23-06, 05:17 PM

The cost of a stand-alone HD DVD solution does not begin at $199, unless you want to amend the cost of a Blu-Ray solution to $0 $499/$599 $999 $1299 $1499. Do you agree, or in fact isn't that misleading too? And that being the case, why don't we throw in the BR & HD DVD drives as well, since a PC certainly would qualify as a sunk cost...

Well $199 is the price to the 7+ million XBOX360 owners....

WayneL

11-23-06, 05:47 PM

Yes, Sony may tank and go the way of the dodo. I was talking about the question of whether trojan horses work or not. This can be applied elsewhere even if BluRay dies.
My car came with an XM radio built-in and I susbscribed. Maybe there are numbers out there for these trojan horses.

WayneL

11-23-06, 05:53 PM

BD/PS3: Last but still least (except $)

Michael Mullis

11-23-06, 06:13 PM

you keep talking about your situation. It may be relevant to you, and to 6 million others in the country, but this is not the Mike Mullis forum or the I Own an XBox360 forum, but the AVS forum - so it's relevance over all, and your need to repeat it over and over, is not so great.

LOL, so it may be relevant to 6 million people, but that is insignificant? Awesome. And hey, if you don't like my repeating it, skip over it, don't read it. Close your eyes.

However, I do have an issue with your "creative accounting" method that tries to make the add-on appear to be the low $199 cost solution. Heck, that's why it's called an add-on, you need the main Xbox 360 component for it to function at all. Your HDTV, receiver and remote does not depend on an another specific piece of equipment in order for it to work and are interchangable components - that qualifies it as sunk costs, not the timing of the 360 purchase.

I disagree. Unless you purchased an HDTV with a built-in tuner or built-in HD DVD/BR player, you can't just plug it in and get HD. You need a set-top box or a media player of some sort to make it work. Same with a receiver. You need an input to get output. That makes an HDTV needing of an add-on component to make it work.

Likewise, you can't buy a PS3, Xbox 360 add-on, etc: and not get HD unless you have an HDTV. It's all interchangable, and that is why sunk cost is relevant.

Again, you're more than welcome to want to put the price of the console on the back of the add-on, even a year later. It's not a fair analogy because as I said, I didn't have to spend $499 or higher for the ability the day I bought the add-on to watch HD media.

Sorry there thom...didn't mean to have to make you read that again.

Well $199 is the price to the 7+ million XBOX360 owners....

Don't say that WiFi. Remember, we don't count. We're not "relevant".

rdjam

11-23-06, 06:59 PM

An answer just as expected. With the obligatory :). And as expected rdjam is happy to chime along. How predictable.
I gots to pay respects to tha truth bruthah!

At least my knee jerk reactions don't extend to personal attacks.... :)

Kosty

11-23-06, 07:23 PM

Happy Thanksgiving! :)

DTV TiVo Dealer

11-23-06, 07:26 PM

Blu-ray player sales have now permanently surpassed HD-DVD player sales!

Considering the dismal number of PS3s that were shipped, I wonder whether this is correct. This is getting hilarious. :D

I would say even if BD disc playing able hardware has suppressed HD DVD, Sony's Playstation 3 free BD disc bundle is very disappointing so anyone who pops in their free BD disc will be easily persuaded never to buy another BD disc.

-Robert

Zassk

11-23-06, 08:01 PM

Head Shot

11-23-06, 08:28 PM

I would say even if BD disc playing able hardware has suppressed HD DVD, Sony's Playstation 3 free BD disc bundle is very disappointing so anyone who pops in their free BD disc will be easily persuaded never to buy another BD disc.

-Robert

Robert, what is your impression of the disk bundled with the PS3? I keep reading the same stuff ? Why would Sony do this with this launch ?

WayneL

11-23-06, 09:35 PM

BD/PS3: More is Less

thomopolis

11-23-06, 11:05 PM

I am not sure how you can dismiss it as irrelevant to the general case. The number of people in question (6 million in Sept, 9-10 million in January, 13-15 million in June) is a significant portion of all the people who own HDTVs! They are not just a tiny niche of the market. All of these people are eligible for a $200 player.

Never said it was irrelevant. I only said it's relavancy is less than what Mike was making it out to be.

The number of people with an XBox360 is large, the number of people with an HDTV is much larger. So continuously saying it only costs $200 to get into HD-DVD when that is only true for a subset of the potential market is disengenouous, or most likely repeated just to be annoying.

Besides, if you take his argument at face value, it means there is almost zero chance that any company other than Toshiba will make HD-DVD players because now they need to compete with the $200 solution. How likely is that?

Michael Mullis

11-24-06, 12:14 AM

lymzy

11-24-06, 12:40 AM

Off the topic.

HP is now selling d4650y (http://www.shopping.hp.com/webapp/shopping/computer_series.do?category=desktops&series_name=d4650y_series&catLevel=3&storeName=computer_store&jumpid=in_r329_personalization/browse1/home_SDP) destop PC. You could customize it. Adding an HD DVD drive only cost $99 extra. :eek:

b2bonez

11-24-06, 02:13 AM

I guess this counts for news (or possibly a lack of it..)

Just watched Charlie Rose interview with Bill Gates. Lots of "vision" stuff and a few minutes about the Xbox vs PS3 and not a single mention of HD-DVD or BD.

Hmm....

b2b

nilsp

11-24-06, 02:18 AM

I gots to pay respects to tha truth bruthah!
"The" truth, or "your" truth?

At least my knee jerk reactions don't extend to personal attacks.... :)
Sorry if I offended you. I guess that depends on the definition of a personal "attack". How did I attack you? I was just responding to posts from the anti Blu-ray folks, where they (again) ridicule the fact that it takes a few months from the release of a brand new format until you have a significant number of titles available for that format. Something one should think isn't too hard to understand.

If you look back, I think you would find something similar with laserdisc and DVD. Of course, HD DVD is simple and cheap to replicate on more or less existing hardware, so you wonder why it is not leading by hundreds of titles??

thomopolis

11-24-06, 03:13 AM

Ahh, so now because you can't simply dismiss my arguement, I am annoying. Here's a helpful hint thomopolis. There's an ignore feature here. Use it and you'll never have to hear me talk about the $200 add-on ever again.

Until then, what you consider to be disengenouous is such because you simply don't like the point and can't really defend your side of it. So let me spell it out a little more. It doesn't matter if the number of people with HDTV's are larger than the number of Xbox 360 owners. That is a totally irrelevant point. The point is there are MILLIONS, not just me, MILLLLLLLLIOONNNNNNNNNNSSSSSSSSSSS of Xbox 360 owners. So for us MILLIONS of current Xbox 360 owners, the price to enter HD DVD is...........say it with me...........$199.

You can try to dance around it. You can try and diminish it. You can even close your eyes, cover your ear, and pretend it doesn't exist. That doesn't change a thing.

Like I said, put me on ignore. That way you simply don't have to read my repeated point. Because you sure don't actually understand it.

I didn't say you were being annoying, I was speculating that you were trying to be annoying....now I think you are trying to mimic Carl Sagan, only he usually talked in BIIIIILLLLLLLLLLYYYYYYYYYYYUUUUUUUUUUNNNNSSSSSSSSSSS.

Going back and reading the recent posts I think we are arguing past each other. So instead of continuing it, I am going to jump back to something I said a few days ago.

The addon appears to be popular, so the odds of HD-DVD dying have lessened. The odds of studio support increasing has gone up.

The PS3, based upon initial reviews, appears to be a good BD player, so the odds of the studios abandoning BD have lessened. The odds of Universal putting movies on it have increased.

The two are not mutually exclusive.

The only negatives brought out by the game systems; the PS3 has effectively made it unrealistic for CE companies to sell BD players over $500 in any kind of quantity. The Addon has effectively taken six million (or miiiiilllllliiiiiiioooooonnnnn if you prefer) potential customers interested in hitech away from any CE companies wanting to get into HD-DVD until players are sub $200.

Happy? :)

UxiSXRD

11-24-06, 03:28 AM

The only negatives brought out by the game systems; the PS3 has effectively made it unrealistic for CE companies to sell BD players over $500 in any kind of quantity. The Addon has effectively taken six million (or miiiiilllllliiiiiiioooooonnnnn if you prefer) potential customers interested in hitech away from any CE companies wanting to get into HD-DVD until players are sub $200.

Both are offset by connections that audio enthusiasts (arguably a niche concern) would want. I was getting set on the HD-XA1, but very true, this player was just too good a deal for a fraction of the current pricing for me to seriously consider it. Even if my analog inputs remain empty. Then there are elitists who won't consider a game system and those who don't want their decidedly un-home theater component appearance. More players available is never a bad thing, though, and the dedicated players should be able to (hopefully) add features, though the firmware/feature/hard drives on the game systems make them very likely to be able to counter.

The 360 gimping it's audio ouput is a bit more serious concern. I should at least be able to get the DD+. Hopefully this will be addressed via firmware (and is presupposes that this something that CAN be addressed by firmware).

The PS3's HDMI output gives it an advantage for me, offset by 1) I can't get a PS3 :( and 2) the hope that Microsoft may be able to come out with HDMI.

In either case, I'll remain format agnostic.

b2bonez

11-24-06, 03:50 AM

I didn't say you were being annoying, I was speculating that you were trying to be annoying....now I think you are trying to mimic Carl Sagan, only he usually talked in BIIIIILLLLLLLLLLYYYYYYYYYYYUUUUUUUUUUNNNNSSSSSSSSSSS.

Going back and reading the recent posts I think we are arguing past each other. So instead of continuing it, I am going to jump back to something I said a few days ago.

The addon appears to be popular, so the odds of HD-DVD dying have lessened. The odds of studio support increasing has gone up.

The PS3, based upon initial reviews, appears to be a good BD player, so the odds of the studios abandoning BD have lessened. The odds of Universal putting movies on it have increased.

The two are not mutually exclusive.

The only negatives brought out by the game systems; the PS3 has effectively made it unrealistic for CE companies to sell BD players over $500 in any kind of quantity. The Addon has effectively taken six million (or miiiiilllllliiiiiiioooooonnnnn if you prefer) potential customers interested in hitech away from any CE companies wanting to get into HD-DVD until players are sub $200.

Happy? :)

If we could just convince Microsoft to come up with a $200.00 42" plasma addon for the Xbox... I could go for that... :)

b2b

Michael Mullis

11-24-06, 12:43 PM

I didn't say you were being annoying, I was speculating that you were trying to be annoying....now I think you are trying to mimic Carl Sagan, only he usually talked in BIIIIILLLLLLLLLLYYYYYYYYYYYUUUUUUUUUUNNNNSSSSSSSSSSS.

Ok, now I'm impressed. Carl Sagan isn't exactly a household reference. :)

The addon appears to be popular, so the odds of HD-DVD dying have lessened. The odds of studio support increasing has gone up.

The PS3, based upon initial reviews, appears to be a good BD player, so the odds of the studios abandoning BD have lessened. The odds of Universal putting movies on it have increased.

The two are not mutually exclusive.

I agree actually. I said that in another thread. It's also been my position from the very start of getting involved in the "format war" that exclusive studios are doing this wrong. There should be as much studio neutrality as possible and let the consumers decide the format.

The only negatives brought out by the game systems; the PS3 has effectively made it unrealistic for CE companies to sell BD players over $500 in any kind of quantity. The Addon has effectively taken six million (or miiiiilllllliiiiiiioooooonnnnn if you prefer) potential customers interested in hitech away from any CE companies wanting to get into HD-DVD until players are sub $200.

I see it another way. I see it as an inexpensive way for a large segment of people to get into the format and start buying movies. I don't believe that Universal, Fox, Disney, etc: care how many CE players are on the market, or who makes them. I'm sure they care how many discs they sell. That is going to be what sways their format choices.

That said, this add-on won't stop overseas CE's from making standalone players. There are still advantages for many who don't own Xbox 360's to getting a standalone player. And if someone can get a player down into the $350-$399 range, that would spur sales just as much.

If we could just convince Microsoft to come up with a $200.00 42" plasma addon for the Xbox... I could go for that...

I don't do anything under 65" :)

b2bonez

11-24-06, 01:27 PM

I don't do anything under 65" :)

So why are you in love with a $200 addon that doesn't fully support HD-DVD with all options. Looks like a $1000 HD-XA2 would be more to your budget capabilities. ;)

b2b

2Channel

11-24-06, 01:55 PM

The new HP external HD-DVD drive.

http://www.pcpro.co.uk/news/98692/hp-unveils-its-first-hd-dvd-drive.html

http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/newsroom/press_kits/2006/psgconsumer/ds_hd_dvd.pdf

Michael Mullis

11-24-06, 02:17 PM

So why are you in love with a $200 addon that doesn't fully support HD-DVD with all options. Looks like a $1000 HD-XA2 would be more to your budget capabilities.

Funny, I put an HD-DVD disc in, and I get 1080i (since I don't have a 1080p set, YET). And I get all forms of audio decoded into Dolby Digital (since I don't have a receiver that supports anything else yet).

Oh, and through my VGA cable I get my regular DVD's upconverted.

So I'm not quite sure what you mean by that. ;)

b2bonez

11-24-06, 02:17 PM

The new HP external HD-DVD drive.

http://www.pcpro.co.uk/news/98692/hp-unveils-its-first-hd-dvd-drive.html

http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/newsroom/press_kits/2006/psgconsumer/ds_hd_dvd.pdf

Ack !... 399 GBP = $771 USD...

b2b

darinp2

11-24-06, 02:28 PM

Then there are elitists who won't consider a game system and those who don't want their decidedly un-home theater component appearance.Not sure if you are referring to both, but I borrowed a PS3 from somebody and I think it has a nice home theater component appearance. My HD-A1 looks more like an old style home theater component though. :) I'm not all that impressed by current games I've tried, but as far as the look goes, I think the PS3 looks better than most of my components.
1) I can't get a PS3 :(Prices have been coming down pretty fast and it depends on what you are willing to pay. I don't think I would have much problem finding a 20GB PS3 for $700 by putting an ad on craigslist.

--Darin

Kosty

11-24-06, 02:40 PM

To most people that get the HD DVD add on for the Xbox 360, the audio out of it is equal to or superior to what they have ever gotten from a DVD before.

Some may know in theory that they are not getting all that the format provides, which BTW gives them an incentive to upgrade to a standalone player, but most are and will not be disappointed by their audio experience. To most people, video is more important anyway. The audio is more than good enough to provide a thrilling movie experience.

Most reports are most HD DVD owners are more than satisfied with the audio out, despite its limitations.

Its a matter of meeting expectation also. a $599 PS3 purchase has more expectations than a new $149/199 addon purchase.

b2bonez

11-24-06, 02:47 PM

Funny, I put an HD-DVD disc in, and I get 1080i (since I don't have a 1080p set, YET). And I get all forms of audio decoded into Dolby Digital (since I don't have a receiver that supports anything else yet).

So I'm not quite sure what you mean by that. ;)

HDMI 1.3, lossless audio thru analog out.. more stuff that I can't remember.

I was going to quote something off the Toshiba site, but they don't even list them (A2 or XA2) under the "products" selection yet, all they show is the discontinued A1 & XA1. The only info is a press release on the new players.

b2b

Michael Mullis

11-24-06, 02:49 PM

Did anyone else catch this out of that Europe article on the HP drive:

The drives should be available in the UK mid-December with recommended retail pricing of £399 and they will be bundled with Cyberlink playback software. The hd100 is actually a Lite-On device, but HP has been branding its products since early 2005.

Wasn't Lite-On prepping a standalone HD DVD player for sometime in the spring? I saw mock-up pics of it a couple weeks ago, but no info since.

g55555sim

11-24-06, 02:49 PM

b2bonez

11-24-06, 02:52 PM

hmurchison

11-24-06, 02:52 PM

My friend just bought an Xbox 360 and a 42" LCD. When I told her about the HD DVD option whe was VERY jazzed. Another add on sale is coming..i'm sure of it.

b2bonez

11-24-06, 02:59 PM

Did anyone else catch this out of that Europe article on the HP drive:

Wasn't Lite-On prepping a standalone HD DVD player for sometime in the spring? I saw mock-up pics of it a couple weeks ago, but no info since.

Looks like they can make more money selling the drives to HP than they can trying to compete with MS (addon $199) and Toshiba (A2 $499) building standalone players. Liteon makes pretty good OEM products, but the their CE stuff is kinda junky.

b2b

nilsp

11-24-06, 04:31 PM

with the PS3 having the functionality of the expensive standalone players such as HDMI 1.3, 1080p .. I would not be suprised if the console (as b2b put it) 'chop the leg off the standalone players'. :D if CEs can sell the standalone players because of PS3, I will be the first one to label them SUCKERS !! :D

As many have said, they don't want a game machine in their rack. I don't think it will be huge problem. And, it is not like the CEs didn't know about the PS3... :eek:

g55555sim

11-24-06, 04:34 PM

As many have said, they don't want a game machine in their rack. I don't think it will be huge problem. And, it is not like the CEs didn't know about the PS3... :eek:

well CEs might have underestimated the problem of the "expensiveness" of their standalone players :p

Zassk

11-24-06, 05:09 PM

If we could just convince Microsoft to come up with a $200.00 42" plasma addon for the Xbox... I could go for that... :)

b2b

Ok, now there's something that everyone can agree on :)

dialog_gvf

11-24-06, 05:18 PM

Ack !... 399 GBP = $771 USD...

That's what the article says. But, it can't be right. I'm sure that is around what a Sony BURNER sells for over there.

Gary

nilsp

11-24-06, 05:55 PM

well CEs might have underestimated the problem of the "expensiveness" of their standalone players :p

That could be true. They were probably not expecting Toshiba to launch at $500... :eek: Thus suddenly becoming very expensive compared to the competition.

thomopolis

11-24-06, 06:01 PM

with the PS3 having the functionality of the expensive standalone players such as HDMI 1.3, 1080p .. I would not be suprised if the console (as b2b put it) 'chop the leg off the standalone players'. :D if CEs can sell the standalone players because of PS3, I will be the first one to label them SUCKERS !! :D

If HD-DVD had more studio support, I probably would have bought an A1 by now. And if the PS3 didn't exist, I definitely would have bought the Panasonic by now.

Instead, I am waiting to get hold of a PS3 to feed my projector.

thomopolis

11-24-06, 06:11 PM

Prices have been coming down pretty fast and it depends on what you are willing to pay. I don't think I would have much problem finding a 20GB PS3 for $700 by putting an ad on craigslist.

--Darin

Assuming I am only going to use it for movies and a few games, but never play online or download anything, is there any reason the 20 Gig version would not be adequate?

2Channel

11-24-06, 07:05 PM

That could be true. They were probably not expecting Toshiba to launch at $500... :eek: Thus suddenly becoming very expensive compared to the competition.

Here's a post where Amir and Talkstr8t were discussing the HP drive vs. the Xbox add-on. they seem to be under the impression that the US price would be $349, but who knows. Maybe the UK site mixed up the US dollar list price with the UK price. I imagine we'll see real prices show up in froogle some time next week and then we'll know for sure.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8881281&highlight=349#post8881281

2Channel

11-24-06, 07:25 PM

Assuming I am only going to use it for movies and a few games, but never play online or download anything, is there any reason the 20 Gig version would not be adequate?

The 60 Gig also has the memory card slots and wireless LAN connectivity. Of course if you would like to load games local to the hard drive instead of playing off the disc, you may want the 60Gig version (below is one example). I plan to pick up the 60Gig personally. I want the memory slots, plus in a couple of years I'll probably want to sell this box, and I think the 60 Gig will be easier to unload.

http://www.gamepro.com/news.cfm?article_id=85228

Kosty

11-24-06, 07:26 PM

Assuming I am only going to use it for movies and a few games, but never play online or download anything, is there any reason the 20 Gig version would not be adequate? Several threads have been made by people who have just bought a 20 GB player. Apparently the 20 GB acts just as well as the 60GB version as a player. It might have made a difference before when the 20 GB was not slated to have HDMI, but both versions now have it.

If your not using the HD for gaming and/or future storage potential the 20 GB should work just as well for Blu-ray movie discs.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=755349

Talkstr8t

11-24-06, 08:03 PM

BD "winning" this thing would require MS having to can the HD-DVD add on, give up HDi, lose all those VC-1 wins, incur the wrath of orphaned XBox HD DVD add on users, and get a very public black eye in the process. They have a formidable cash reserve, while expressing a keen desire to have their software be there in the digital home (which requires some involvement in the format's creation and administration by the way). Are you suggesting they would just give all that up and wait for the download market? Of course, it would be decided for them if either Toshiba decided they couldn't afford to fight an expensive, losing battle, or if Universal decided the Blu-ray pastures were too, umm, green.

Talkstr8t

11-24-06, 08:05 PM

What about the fact that Sony and it's crew is propping up a format which was rejected by the very group who more or less oversees the DVD format?Everyone in the group except Toshiba backed Blu-ray. It was only due to the politics and governance of the group that it is where HD-DVD has been specified.
Still don't understand why one format has to "win". I'm betting they can both survive and all of us on both sides with our various players can enjoy our movies.Every analyst out there has said that as long as both formats persist a big chunk of the public will consider neither format. That lack of adoption hurts the market for high-def DVD, regardless of which format.

Talkstr8t

11-24-06, 08:09 PM

Considering the dismal number of PS3s that were shipped, I wonder whether this is correct. This is getting hilarious.Dismal number? They are still well on track to greatly exceed the number of Xbox 360s sold a year ago. Even based on the lowest estimates and as of last Friday, we have 90K sold in Japan and 125K sold in North America. Unless 130K+ HD-DVD add-ons have been sold (highly unlikely), Blu-ray is clearly in the lead.

Talkstr8t

11-24-06, 08:12 PM

The only negatives brought out by the game systems; the PS3 has effectively made it unrealistic for CE companies to sell BD players over $500 in any kind of quantity. How does this make other BD player models any less likely than the $499 Toshiba model(s) do?

2Channel

11-24-06, 08:13 PM

Of course, it would be decided for them if either Toshiba decided they couldn't afford to fight an expensive, losing battle, or if Universal decided the Blu-ray pastures were too, umm, green.

You're getting ahead of yourself....perhaps your team should focus on getting BD disc sales equal to HD-DVD disc sales numbers before mapping out how the other team will fold up their tents and go home. ;)

2Channel

11-24-06, 08:27 PM

Dismal number? They are still well on track to greatly exceed the number of Xbox 360s sold a year ago. Even based on the lowest estimates and as of last Friday, we have 90K sold in Japan and 125K sold in North America. Unless 130K+ HD-DVD add-ons have been sold (highly unlikely), Blu-ray is clearly in the lead.

Except that every Xbox add-on customer is buying it for movies. What percentage of those PS3s will actually result in BD movie sales? We're all still waiting to learn that percentage. If it's in the range of 10%, you'll need 1 Million PS3 sales for every 100,000 add-on sales to reach parity.

K.L.

11-24-06, 09:05 PM

So how many 360 HD DVD add-on were actually sold? 10K?

WayneL

11-24-06, 09:44 PM

Every analyst out there has said that as long as both formats persist a big chunk of the public will consider neither format. That lack of adoption hurts the market for high-def DVD, regardless of which format.
Every analyst? Can you document that?

Big chunk doesn't mean much if the biggest chunk doesn't even have HDTV. When they do, the biggest chunk will keep their DVDs for a long time - they don't wear out like video tape.

BD had better get over their more expensive and lower quality reputation if they want to win, real quick.

Richard Paul

11-24-06, 10:22 PM

Such a "feature" seems from an HD DVD supporters viewpoint to place studios and CE makers in front of consumers; to relegate the consumer to "the back of the bus" so to speak.Many consumers thought Betamax was a great video format but should studios have been forced to support it simply to provide "consumer choice"? No offense but at the same time that certain HD DVD supporters claim that studios should support both formats equally I have never heard of any of them stating that software companies should make their programs so they work on both Windows Vista and Linux. Also if EVD players suddenly became big should the studios be forced to support it as well?

Last I looked on EBay it was over $1,000, and is "used goods" AFAIK. If I have to camp out in line for 3 days, risking life and limb to get one for $500, then it might as well not exist at that price point, for me anyway. YMMV.Okay Mike, but what happens when you can walk into a store and buy a PS3 off the retail shelf? Also why do you even argue this if you don't consider the PS3 to be a major factor in this format war?

Precis

11-24-06, 10:26 PM

Media Create Hardware Sales 13-19 November (Japan)

DSL 128,621
PS3 42,099
PSP 16,690
PS2 15,068
Xbox360 4,050
GBASP 1,199
GBM 1,037
GC 514
DS 182
GBA 30
Xbox 6

Can someone confirm these numbers?

Naylia

11-24-06, 10:26 PM

Except that every Xbox add-on customer is buying it for movies. What percentage of those PS3s will actually result in BD movie sales? We're all still waiting to learn that percentage. If it's in the range of 10%, you'll need 1 Million PS3 sales for every 100,000 add-on sales to reach parity.

According to Gamestop/EB, the PS3 sales aren't resulting in much for game sales, so video sales might take a while. The attach rate for PS3 games was 1.5, compared to 3 for the Wii. I'll go dig up the link.

http://playstationteam.com/news/ps3-attach-rate-surprisingly-low-according-to-gamestop.htm

Kosty

11-24-06, 11:17 PM

According to Gamestop/EB, the PS3 sales aren't resulting in much for game sales, so video sales might take a while. The attach rate for PS3 games was 1.5, compared to 3 for the Wii. I'll go dig up the link.

http://playstationteam.com/news/ps3-attach-rate-surprisingly-low-according-to-gamestop.htm Youch,,,, No wonder we haven't seen any affect on Blu-ray movie sales if Blu-ray game disc attach rate is 1.5.

The articles surmises it because people are buying them for resale. I'm not sure of that, I think the price is limiting purchases to the console plus one or two games initially.

As a psychological issue, someone could justify a high purchase price if they told themselves they would buy the other stuff ( more games, controllers, movies) later. Its a common way consumers react to a high price item, limit the items bought with purchase. But once they like it, they can buy more games and movies at a high rate, once the initial purchase has become a sunk cost in their minds.

We need more time to see if the PS3 purchases of even those initial buyers, let alone 2nd 3rd wave buyers effect Blu-ray movie sales. Its just too early.

los seres

11-24-06, 11:32 PM

I guess we know why Warner has Been releasing Some titles on HD DVD and not Blu-Ray, Considering they are format Neutral.

Warner, one of the studios backing both formats, is holding off on Blu-ray releases for titles such as V for Vendetta, Batman Begins and Constantine until the studio can offer the same extras that each title’s HD DVD counterpart carries, said Dan Silverberg, VP of high-def media development for Warner. IME anyone?

Home Media Retailing (http://www.homemediaretailing.com/index.cfm?sec_id=2)

Michael Mullis

11-24-06, 11:45 PM

HDMI 1.3, lossless audio thru analog out.. more stuff that I can't remember.

b2b, let me explain exactly how much that means to me at this point in time. My wife and I just finally got around to watching King Kong (the pack-in for my $200 add-on ;) ). On my piddly Hitachi 1080i set, with my piddly Yamaha RX-V800 DD receiver, she was blown away with the picture.

Now we've had HDTV in the house via D* and OTA. And my D* HD10-250 is going HDMI to DVI to my TV. So she's no stranger to HD. But for the first time we've watched a movie, she asked me to pause the movie at the jungle sunrise scene with Kong and Ann because she thought the image was gorgeous. STOPPED THE MOVIE I said.

The HDMI 1.3 means absolutely nothing to me at this point. The add-on did it's job. It sold my could-care-less-about-HD wife on why I bought it. As soon as I actually have another grand or so to drop on a new receiver, I might care about lossless audio. And since the Xbox 360 is capable of analog audio out, it's conceviable they could make a cable for it. (Amir??).

Everyone in the group except Toshiba backed Blu-ray. It was only due to the politics and governance of the group that it is where HD-DVD has been specified.

So let me understand this. One company was able to pass HD DVD as the successor for DVD? Toshiba carried that kind of weight?

And last I checked Warner and Paramount are also members. Aren't they HD DVD studios as well as Blu-ray studios? I imagine someone other than Toshiba voted yes.

Every analyst out there has said that as long as both formats persist a big chunk of the public will consider neither format. That lack of adoption hurts the market for high-def DVD, regardless of which format.

And so how is having a segmented market helping either? Of course, the militants on either side will say their format should be the one united. But it isn't going to happen. So studios should do the right thing at this point. Everyone releases for both formats and let the consumer decide which one they want. If Blu-ray is that much better than HD DVD as many supporters claim it is, then it shouldn't worry them to have Fox, Lionsgate, and Disney releasing on HD DVD because Universal would also be releasing on Blu-ray. If the confidence is there that Blu-ray will prevail, then there's nothing to be afraid of. Right?

Thank goodness Warner Bros. shares my opinion:
http://www.homemediaretailing.com/index.cfm?sec_id=2

“Warner Bros. is absolutely taking on a little more financially by supporting multi-formats, but we also want the consumer to have all the choices at their disposal,” he said. “We just think it’s a better way to go.”
-Dan Silverberg, VP of high-def media development for Warner

Dismal number? They are still well on track to greatly exceed the number of Xbox 360s sold a year ago.

And you base this on...........

Unless 130K+ HD-DVD add-ons have been sold (highly unlikely), Blu-ray is clearly in the lead.

My goodness. Blu-ray folk love to make statements and not have anything to back it up. Where are the sales numbers that back up what you are saying?? Besides we all know they don't exist, where are you getting this assumption from??

I have never heard of any of them stating that software companies should make their programs so they work on both Windows Vista and Linux.

With all due respect Richard, Linux has never been a serious contender for the home PC world. It's not exactly a "competing platform" to Windows. Hate Microsoft and Bill Gates, but that is just a fact. And it's a far cry from the HD DVD/BD arguement.

Esox50

11-24-06, 11:47 PM

I guess we know why Warner has Been releasing Some titles on HD DVD and not Blu-Ray, Considering they are format Neutral.

IME anyone?

Home Media Retailing (http://www.homemediaretailing.com/index.cfm?sec_id=2)
Yep, this is exactly what TalkStr8t was probably alluding to the other day. I think this is but one of the issues that has held up some of the WB releases, not b/c they have some sort of secret format preference that certain individuals here want to believe. Another unanswered question is Dolby TrueHD (or lack thereof) as it relates to the WB. But I'm sure that info will come out in due time.

I cannot fault WB for withholding some big titles like Batman Begins from BD in order to ensure that they are done "right" when they finally arrive.

Here's a scary thought for some people here, what if some of the rumored (or previously listed) HD DVD catalog titles that are now MIA from WB have been delayed until the "IME" and/or Dolby TrueHD issues get worked out with BD (so that they can be released at the same time)? Oh the horror. :D

Richard Paul

11-25-06, 03:30 AM

With all due respect Richard, Linux has never been a serious contender for the home PC world. It's not exactly a "competing platform" to Windows. Hate Microsoft and Bill Gates, but that is just a fact. And it's a far cry from the HD DVD/BD arguement.Not really, and my comparison is not that far off if you think about it. After all one of the advantages Windows Vista has over Linux is the number of programs designed that will only work with it. From what I can see demanding that all the Blu-ray studios support HD DVD to give consumers more choices is no different that asking all programs to be made so they can work with both Windows Vista and Linux. In my opinion both are absurd requests with the only difference being that some people try to justify the former while I have never seen anyone try to justify the latter. Also Michael why did you only quote a part of one sentence when it didn't make much sense without the other sentences? Also just curious but why do you hate Microsoft and Bill Gates?

Talkstr8t

11-25-06, 04:13 AM

So let me understand this. One company was able to pass HD DVD as the successor for DVD? Toshiba carried that kind of weight? And last I checked Warner and Paramount are also members. Aren't they HD DVD studios as well as Blu-ray studios? I imagine someone other than Toshiba voted yes.This has been well-documented elsewhere in the Forum, so I won't rehash it here, but essentially you're correct, Toshiba was sufficiently powerful that the other major CE vendors chose to specify Blu-ray outside of the DVD Forum rather than attempt to fight Toshiba inside the DVD Forum. Only the Steering Committee mattered; as far as I recall neither Warner nor Paramount were members of the Steering Committee at that time. Incidentally, the charter for the DVD Forum refers only to standard definition DVD. It is no more "correct" a standards body for a high definition format to be created than is the Blu-ray Disc Association or some other bona fide specification body.
Dismal number? They are still well on track to greatly exceed the number of Xbox 360s sold a year ago.And you base this on...........Accepted figures of 380K Xbox 360's sold last year from launch until the end of the year versus very, very conservative figures of 200K PS3's sold at launch (88K in Japan and 120K in the US) plus 100K/wk additional deliveries. Even if Sony only hits half that number they'll still easily pass 2006 Xbox 360 sales.
Unless 130K+ HD-DVD add-ons have been sold (highly unlikely), Blu-ray is clearly in the lead.My goodness. Blu-ray folk love to make statements and not have anything to back it up. Where are the sales numbers that back up what you are saying?? Besides we all know they don't exist, where are you getting this assumption from??Because if Microsoft had sold anywhere near enough HD-DVD add-ons to compare with even a fraction of PS3 sales (or standalone HD-DVD players) they'd surely be publicizing the number to anyone who would listen. They've often stated Xbox 360 sales; why wouldn't they state add-on sales?

Talkstr8t

11-25-06, 04:24 AM

ZDnet is hosting a Blu-ray blog with Andy Parsons of Pioneer and Marty Gordon of Philips here (http://blogs.zdnet.com/blu-ray/?p=4).

- Talk

blitz6speed

11-25-06, 05:31 AM

Got the blog bookmarked, thanks for the link.

I also find it funny about the HD-DVD Addon talk. TalkStr8t, if you go through 90% of the threads about the Addon, they also own the A1! So they're essentially trying out whatever they can as an alternative to the horrific hardware that is the A1. Then they claim that every addon = new customer for discs, when clearly, its mostly the same small minute group of people buying the players in addition to the A1. And go to Frys in so cal, any of them. The HD-DVD Addons have been collecting dust there and the guy working at the department there said theres 0 interest in them, everyone asks about the Wii, and of course, the PS3.

Viva La Blu-Ray!

WiFi-Spy

11-25-06, 06:01 AM

. And go to Frys in so cal, any of them. The HD-DVD Addons have been collecting dust there and the guy working at the department there said theres 0 interest in them, everyone asks about the Wii, and of course, the PS3.

Viva La Blu-Ray!

They are sold out almost everywhere in seattle....

What'sHD

11-25-06, 07:46 AM

They are sold out almost everywhere in seattle....
The add-on is available at normal price at amazon. Btw, does the one from amazon include King Kong? I am desperate for some HD here in SG.

Are there numbers on how many add-ons were manufactured?

Michael Mullis

11-25-06, 09:13 AM

From what I can see demanding that all the Blu-ray studios support HD DVD to give consumers more choices is no different that asking all programs to be made so they can work with both Windows Vista and Linux. In my opinion both are absurd requests with the only difference being that some people try to justify the former while I have never seen anyone try to justify the latter. Also Michael why did you only quote a part of one sentence when it didn't make much sense without the other sentences? Also just curious but why do you hate Microsoft and Bill Gates?

I don't hate Microsoft or Bill Gates Richard, though that was a pretty slick try. :) Usually since the masses hate Gates for what he's accomplished and he's the symbol of evil for most, I try to understand why people make the comparisons.

As for the comparison, my point was that Windows has been established, though many have tried and failed. Linux has zero chance of taking any real share of the OS home market. HD DVD and Blu-ray are new technologies hitting at around the same time, and now a format is trying to be decided from them both. That is why the comparison is not the same.

This has been well-documented elsewhere in the Forum, so I won't rehash it here, but essentially you're correct, Toshiba was sufficiently powerful that the other major CE vendors chose to specify Blu-ray outside of the DVD Forum rather than attempt to fight Toshiba inside the DVD Forum.

I did a search on the forum. Found no such well-documentation. So you will have to link for me. I find it hard to believe one CE had that much power over everyone else that they held their nose and let Toshiba dictate the forum's direction. I vote Toshiba for next U.N. Ambassador!

Accepted figures of 380K Xbox 360's sold last year from launch until the end of the year versus very, very conservative figures of 200K PS3's sold at launch (88K in Japan and 120K in the US) plus 100K/wk additional deliveries. Even if Sony only hits half that number they'll still easily pass 2006 Xbox 360 sales.

You're banking on those 100k/week deliveries. I hope Sony has some hidden in a sinkhole in Japan somewhere and it's in the process of digging them up. I don't think they are going to hit 100k each week.

Because if Microsoft had sold anywhere near enough HD-DVD add-ons to compare with even a fraction of PS3 sales (or standalone HD-DVD players) they'd surely be publicizing the number to anyone who would listen. They've often stated Xbox 360 sales; why wouldn't they state add-on sales?

First off, they did NOT state Xbox 360 sales in the middle of the month after the product was on sale for merely a couple of weeks. Trust me, I covered the launch. We didn't get sales numbers of the console for a good while. So to try and marginalize the add-on because Microsoft won't immediately give you sales numbers is a little below the proverbial belt.