HiDef DVD News VII - News Only : AND WE MEAN IT: NEWS ONLY

[Ezra]

Article from June ??? :confused:

Last time I checked the "Holidays" aren't "soon on us", but are "on us".. No $100 price cut yet..

b2b

Xbox 360 price cuts? (http://www.dslreports.com/shownews/79897)

[RobertR1]

BD50 ROM media is still a scarce commodity.

A prime example would be not shipping TDN on a BD50 for 500,000units (PS3).

They're better off using the 500,000k BD50 discs and distributing multiple films with a much lower production run per film. This not only pleases the studios as they get their allocation of BD50 media but it also gives the appearance that BD50 media is widely available as multiple titles are seen coming out on BD50.

The lack of BD50 media in the biggest production run of any BR film to date and one that arguably promotes the format to the masses better than anything so far, clearly shows that BD50 is not dime a dozen and production issues still exist.

Couple that with only Sony being able to produce these discs and well, there you have it.....

[b2bonez]

I can't help but to notice your lopsided scrutiny of AVS insiders. In addition, I'm not entirely sure you yourself are living above the vested interest you vow to protect everyone from.

If anyone wants to send me a check, I'll cash it in a heartbeat and send you a photocopy. ;) But to answer your question, the answer is no, I have no position that could be called "vested" (or anything for that matter). But it is flattering that someone thinks I should... :)

b2b

[Kosty]

The the 360 is a handy appliance too... Rumor has it there is another "Addon" in the works.. ;)

b2b Shouldn't that be a PS3 instead working in its maximum heat radiance mode?

http://www.digitimes.com/news/a20061127PD205.html

...While Sony is preparing to deliver its second batch of PS3 game consoles in December, consumers who are currently enjoying the new gaming device reportedly have encountered problems with the console, including overheating, inability to start up the console, and a lower display resolution from its Blu-ray Disc (BD) player, according to market sources.

Problems related to overheating and inability to start the machine were reported since the PS3 launched in mid-November. Reports have circulated recently in the US retail market saying that when used with older high-definition (HD) TVs that support only a 1080i resolution, the PS3 displays 720p resolution games at only 480p. Sources at Sony said this problem could be caused by a firmware problem and that the company will resolve the problem as soon as possible.

In Taiwan, some users were complaining that the new game console is not compatible with some PS2 game titles and that the machine would shut down when it overheated, said the sources. After consulting with Taiwan's Consumer Protection Commission and distributors, the Taipei branch of Sony Computer Entertainment Hong Kong (SCEH) agreed to replace consoles found to have serious defects....

[kdragon]

BD50 ROM media is still a scarce commodity. I doubt anyone is arguing that there are no problems with BD50 yields. But it's no science fiction (in case your post is continuation of the discussion in the last several posts).
Couple that with only Sony being able to produce these discs and well, there you have it.....I guess it's no secret that BD50 yields are still lower. Once the yields improve, so will the availability. Sony is already absorbing a lot of cost as it is (according to rumors). It is important for BD50 to be there when needed but IMO it is not necessary for it to be the default choice for pressing movies. That would be adding unnecessary cost.

I think what BD needs now is BD-Live to kick in. That is the only important aspect that is missing. June looks too far away.

[Kosty]

Of course, since the Xbox HD-DVD add-on doesn't share many (any?) components with standalone players other than the drive itself, you only get economies of scale on the drive; it doesn't benefit other component costs. ahhhhh Isn't the drive which includes the Blue-Violet laser and optical pickup the most expensive and least available component? The other components are much more easily manufactured aren't they?.

[2Channel]

Article from June ??? :confused:

Last time I checked the "Holidays" aren't "soon on us", but are "on us".. No $100 price cut yet..

b2b

It seems that PS3 availability is so bad that Microsoft decided not to do the $100 price drop. I have little doubt Microsoft would have gone through with the price drop this Christmas season if Sony had actually been able to bring 1-2 Million PS3s to market.

http://nexgenwars.com/

[Kosty]

...Do you really believe that Toshiba will sell a $250 HD DVD player next year? The retail or street price of the second generation HD A2 models may possibly hit that price point. The street prices will in all probably be $399 by the end of next year. There is a very good chance that a Taiwanese or Korean designed, mainland China manufactured HD DVD player will be on the market next year and may very well hit that price point of $250 for a street price, if not MSRP.

Also how many CE companies do you think will make HD DVD players next year? AT least one other brand (RCA) besides Toshiba, and that's important from a consumer point of view. Its also very likely that at least two other Chinese OEM's will have products on the market. If I would guess I would say at least 4 different brands or one more than the HD DVD 1st generation (Toshiba Thompon/RCA Wal-mart)

[Kosty]

Selected quote: [on the PS3 vs. Panasonic and Samung Blu-day players]

And that's just the tip of the iceberg... :)

b2b SO if the PS3 at $600 is soooooo much better than the Samsung and Panasonic standalone players you admit then that those two Blu-ray players are overpriced and underperforming?

and then it logically follows that if you can't get a PS3 because not enough are being produced, that no cost effective Blu-ray solution is currently available on the market?

[2Channel]

I doubt anyone is arguing that there are no problems with BD50 yields. But it's no science fiction (in case your post is continuation of the discussion in the last several posts).
I guess it's no secret that BD50 yields are still lower. Once the yields improve, so will the availability. Sony is already absorbing a lot of cost as it is (according to rumors). It is important for BD50 to be there when needed but IMO it is not necessary for it to be the default choice for pressing movies. That would be adding unnecessary cost.

I think what BD needs now is BD-Live to kick in. That is the only important aspect that is missing. June looks too far away.

Here are a couple of interesting things for those who want HD-DVD dead to consider. BD came to market with BD-25 discs and Mpeg2. If magazines weren't writing that HD-DVD looked better, would Sony have been rushing to get BD-50 discs to market? Would there be any BD-50 discs available today? Would you be able to buy Black Hawk Down (BD-50) for $20?

I don't believe so. I believe Sony would be pumping out BD-25 discs for everything and they'd be priced higher.

[kdragon]

...Its also very likely that at least two other Chinese OEM's will have products on the market.Sounds logical. Apparently, Chinese manufacturers are very good at cost reduction. But I think the main cost reduction comes from reduced labor costs. The hi-def players have not reached a cost point where labor costs dominate the price. Even if Chinese manufacturers jump in, they will still have to pay for the components which are not cheap. It may lower the cost a little, but not to the level we are used to seeing with DVD players, IMO, at least for a year. And of course, there is this scarcity of blue lasers. Would Chinese manufacturers pay premium to get their allotment? If Chinese manu. jump in at this point, I bet they will like to earn some healthy profit to be able to drop the price significantly in later years (because of initial low volume).

[dialog_gvf]

They are no doubt hemmorhaging money. But Sony is not the only player in this game. As far as other CEs AND studios are concerned, the PS3 is vital in the battle for domination of the HD movie market (attach rates remain to be seen.) Should Sony suddenly limit production to limit their own losses, they are risking the very existince of Blu-ray, IMHO.


Many would attack the PS/3 as killing the stand-alone market. While, perhaps it is possible to look at it like the PS/3 as the relief for the unprofitable non-SOC first generation, allowing the CE to wait for the economies of scale to kick in for subsequent SOC generations. At some point, the stand-alones will get cheaper than a PS/3, and probably perform better.

But, as long as major CE remain at the sidelines (JVC, Sharp, Mitsubishi, and Hitachi), there is always the chance they will try their hand at HD DVD instead. Although continuing aggressive pricing from Toshiba will probably make that very difficult.


(And as was mentioned by B2B I think, we don't really know they are losing $240, it is the estimate of iSupply. I, for one, though the BOM was a bit on the high side for a few of the items, but then again, I'm no analyst. But then again the analyst probably does not have access to the pricing Sony is actually getting.)

You're right, we don't know. And I've pointed my complaints with the iSuppli breakdowns. But, in the end, $840 seems to be a not too outrageous an estimate. Especially if you add in the anciliary costs not in the estimate.

As I said, it seems almost like they had a number in mind, and used the Other Components line item to get to it. $500 v. $204 for a fully populated MB?!

Gary

[BenDover]

Well, here is a surprise...Sony's standalone player finally bows:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=758701

[chad_cincy]

If anyone wants to send me a check, I'll cash it in a heartbeat and send you a photocopy. ;) But to answer your question, the answer is no, I have no position that could be called "vested" (or anything for that matter). But it is flattering that someone thinks I should... :)

b2b
I said you were not above it, not that you yourself were vested.

More to the point Amir, Talk, etc wear a scarlet letter for all to see. We know where they are coming from and from what perspective to take their comments. In my opinion, it is worse when people play vigilante moderator under the guise of being non partisan.

[Richard Paul]

it is the first step, you know that!Certainly, but a lot of people are posting on this forum, and others, as though the PS3 has been hacked. Many of them probably don't have a clue that dumping the raw data onto a hard drive is useless without decrypting it. As such it may be a first step but it is a tiny insignificant step compared to what else would have to be done.


None of the others state an unknowable future as a certainty.So your fine with biased signatures as long as they don't do that?


B2B, I challenge you to find an insider directly calling BD50 science fiction.Come now just because Amir said that he was only repeating what somebody told him you know quite well that Amir said that more than a few times last year. It is ridiculous to claim that Amir is blameless for that simply because he supposedly heard it from someone else.


Has AVS made anyone else really hate the word FUD?chad, don't you tell me that Amir has not posted a good amount of FUD on this forum. A few months ago he was coming into the Blu-ray sections of the forum stating that MPEG-4 AVC HP was not capable of encoding fine detail. I think it is safe to say that has been shown to be FUD and I have a hard time believing that Amir didn't know that back when he said it. Honestly I like the facts that Amir occasionally provides on both Blu-ray and HD DVD but there is no doubt in my mind that Amir has been purposefully spreading FUD on this forum for over a year and a half now.

[kdragon]

Here are a couple of interesting things for those who want HD-DVD dead to consider...I have always thanked HD-DVD for making Blu-ray camp work harder! And I have thanked Toshiba for making that pricing move! :) I don't own any Sony stock.

I don't believe so. I believe Sony would be pumping out BD-25 discs for everything and they'd be priced higher.I don't agree (apart from price). BD25 < HD30. That alone would push Blu-ray camp to ask for promised BD50. Besides, Sony as a studio would be then screwed big time by Warner and others who have no problems using VC-1. Disney would be lost to the other side. Logically, BD50 would have arrived regardless, albeit the timing is open to debate.

[BenDover]

Certainly, but a lot of people are posting on this forum, and others, as though the PS3 has been hacked. Many of them probably don't have a clue that dumping the raw data onto a hard drive is useless without decrypting it. As such it may be a first step but it is a tiny insignificant step compared to what else would have to be done.


...


it may be only one step required, but it is by no means insignificant...it is actually a threshold step...

no one posted, at least not my post, that it was hacked...defensive knee-jerk reactions have become all too common around here...

[Kosty]

The problem is that tactics like that were used in the past and continue to this day. FUD was brought to AVS, not by the rank and file enthusist, but by the vested interests that seek to use AVS as a platform for their own purposes. If you fail to see that reality then you just haven't paid close attention to the last year here on AVS.

b2b And you seem to be the self-appointed savior for everyone from that evil. Your version of the reality of the situation may not be what others perceive. Your biases are every bit if not more so apparent than those insiders. At least we know where they come from and who they represent.

As a chief spreader of FUD, its ironic that you, of all people, would be complaining about it.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not attacking you, just your categorical statement I quoted above.

I want you to keep on posting, I can read through your biases, and I appreciate your viewpoint. But just because someone disagrees with you or is associated with a industry company doesn't automatically make their reviews or posts FUD.

Keep on posting and allow others the courtesy to do the same. And you can assume people can think for themselves to separate the wheat from the chaff.

[BenDover]

Pinnacle spins out consumer HD DVD authoring software (http://www.tgdaily.com/2006/11/28/pinnacle_studio_plus_hd_authoring/)

[Kosty]

Pinnacle spins out consumer HD DVD authoring software (http://www.tgdaily.com/2006/11/28/pinnacle_studio_plus_hd_authoring/) The most impressive part of that is the $50 price.

I thought it was great to have the AVS forum HD DVD test patterns available that DR1394 posted.

Isn't this an advantage of HD DVDs that Blu-ray cannot match, that is local HD red laser authoring on DVD-Rs? Or can Blu--ray do this also?

[chad_cincy]

Come now just because Amir said that he was only repeating what somebody told him you know quite well that Amir said that more than a few times last year. It is ridiculous to claim that Amir is blameless for that simply because he supposedly heard it from someone else.
I did go back and look Richard. I even posted the totals of who mentioned "Science Fiction" sense it was first uttered. However, it apparently caused spontaneous self imploding of several BD drones and their posts were deleted along with mine. So lets just not go there again.


chad, don't you tell me that Amir FUD FUD Amir Amir Amir FUD.[humorously edit by yourstruly, editing out all but amir and fud. :)]
I'm capable of reading all the insiders posts without imploding. Even when Talk takes an unfair shot at HD DVD. Doesn't hurt my collection any and people usually correct the information as opposed to relentless attacks on him.

[chad_cincy]

And you seem to be the self-appointed savior for everyone from that evil. Your version of the reality of the situation may not be what others perceive. Your biases are every bit if not more so apparent than those insiders. At least we know where they come from and who they represent.

As a chief spreader of FUD, its ironic that you, of all people, would be complaining about it.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not attacking you, just your categorical statement I quoted above.

I want you to keep on posting, I can read through your biases, and I appreciate your viewpoint. But just because someone disagrees with you or is associated with a industry company doesn't automatically make their reiews FUD.

Keep on posting and allow others the courtesy to do the same. And you can assume people can think for themselves to separate the wheat from the chaff.

You have summed this up perfectly. Very well said.

I'm in complete agreement that I value the opinions of B2B, Paul, Anthony, Talk, etc. However, I value other opinions as well and deserve the opportunity to view them.

[darinp2]

The most impressive part of that is the $50 price.

I thought it was great to have the AVS forum HD DVD test patterns available that DR1394 posted.

Isn't this an advantage of HD DVDs that Blu-ray cannot match, that is local HD red laser authoring on DVD-Rs? Or can Blu--ray do this also?The ability to put test patterns and some of my favorite test scenes on red laser DVDs is something I've really liked about my HD-A1. I haven't looked too deeply into what Blu-ray allows since I already have a solution. But, now that I have a PS3 I am going to find out if I can just put these things straight on the hard drive or if I can plug in an external hard drive and play from there. I would consider either one to be much nicer than having the multiple DVDs I've burned and swapping those.

--Darin

[AnthonyP]

Anthony, I don't think that is really fair since though the HD DVD add-on for the Xbox 360 does have a few limitations it does make a good amount of sense for those interested in HD DVD and who own an Xbox 360

Richard Paul: where did I say anything negative about the add-on? Michael asked what I would do if BD lost and disappeared, I answered I would run out and buy an HD DVD player. He was surprised. There is a reason I have been here since 2001 on a daily basis. This interests me, I want to know if there is something better. There is a reason I have been reading everything I can on BD and HD DVD, I want HD disks. If the better format loses out I will buy what is there. There is even a reason I did not buy an HD DVD player already. With 6/7 studios supporting BD 500$ is too much for one studio misguided for a few months. But if it became 0/7 and 7/7 then I would run out and buy an HD DVD player because sticking with BD makes no sense.

[orogogus]

Has AVS made anyone else really hate the word FUD?

Absolutely, very much, yes.

It's about as tired as 'waaaasup!' and 'all your base' in internet fad terms to me.

[nataraj]

For HD-DVD we reasonably know there are 70K players in the market, plus a completely unknown number of HD-DVD Xbox add-on units. It could be a few tens of thousand or less, or it could be 100K or more. I say it's less, but there hasn't been a single estimate or report, which argues that the number isn't hugely impressive or Microsoft would have provided that information to add momentum.

Your whole argument depends on what you perceive they would have done had the circumstances been what you argue are not to be the case. Highly Credible :p

[AnthonyP]

So if people buy these PS3s to play BD movies on, how does Sony make back any of those gigantic losses? Will they raise the royalties on Blu Ray movies?

Mike: the same way as Toshiba with their gigantic losses

[AnthonyP]

And the "cost of my addiction" was $200. Besides the fact you made a very eliteist statement about your "cost of addiction", like it or not it is what it is. Marginalize it all you want.


Michael Mullis: it is not elitist, just honesty. It is also not an addiction if you can stop. Does a crack user say "oh my crack finished, I guess I don't need it any more". Different people have different priorities, it does not make one better then an other. My Brother in law just build a fancy cottage, everyone I know has a fancier car, that is where they like spending their money. I have a better display, an HT, they don't , they put their money where they want I put mine where I want.

[Richard Paul]

it may be only one step required, but it is by no means insignificant...it is actually a threshold step...Not really, if they can't break the encryption than in my opinion having the encrypted data is insignificant.


no one posted, at least not my post, that it was hacked...defensive knee-jerk reactions have become all too common around here...When did I ever say that about you? Come now you must have seen at least a few posts made on this forum by people saying that the PS3 has been hacked and that is what I was referring to.


I did go back and look Richard. I even posted the totals of who mentioned "Science Fiction" sense it was first uttered.And to take a wild stab in the dark but most likely you discovered that it was mentioned more by certain Blu-ray supporters than by Amir. That is actually not a big surprise since by making that statement Amir left himself wide open for criticism which is one of the reasons he stopped saying it. In fact it is the same reason he can no longer make several of the claims he used to make.


I'm capable of reading all the insiders posts without imploding. Even when Talk takes an unfair shot at HD DVD. Doesn't hurt my collection any and people usually correct the information as opposed to relentless attacks on him.Come now chad you wouldn't even post what I said about Amir since it quite rightfully showed him in a bad light. Instead you defend him by saying that even if it was wrong people could just correct him about it. Also don't give me that BS about Amir being relentlessly attacked when he seemed perfectly fine with going over to the Blu-ray sections of the forum to spread FUD against MPEG-4 AVC HP. That seems to indicate to me that people weren't actually criticizing his behavior enough at that time. To be fair after the response he got for doing that he hasn't done anything like that since than.

[scaesare]

So your fine with biased signatures as long as they don't do that?




So long as it's not inconsistent with their claims, sure.

If "Talkstruth" shows up and claims to want to counterbalance any propaganda by just relating facts, and then has a sig that says, "PM me for a great deal on the Brooklyn Bridge", that's a problem for me.



If "BluBlood" shows up and mentions he just walked off the Sony corporate jet with a sig that says, "HD DVD can kiss me where the good lord split me", I'm good with that simple and consistent message.

Does that answer the question, Senator?

[AnthonyP]

If BR fails, then I can pretty much guarantee that BR will not have permanently suprassed HD DVD

you see you are doing the same thing.

What if they both fail and HD DVD fails earlier on? What if BD fails, HD DVD stays niche but the PS3 takes off?

.....

there are many scenarios where BD could fail and yet for ever surpass HD DVD sales.

[What'sHD]

At a $240 loss (just on BOM, not including shipping, marketing, et. al.) you would have to buy a lot more than one game for Sony to break even on the sale.

hi Mike, if I may ask, are you worried about Sony's viability as a business?

If not, lets enjoy the subsidized PS3, eh? =)

And let enjoy

[mobius]

And you seem to be the self-appointed savior for everyone from that evil. Your version of the reality of the situation may not be what others perceive. Your biases are every bit if not more so apparent than those insiders. At least we know where they come from and who they represent.

As a chief spreader of FUD, its ironic that you, of all people, would be complaining about it.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not attacking you, just your categorical statement I quoted above.

I want you to keep on posting, I can read through your biases, and I appreciate your viewpoint. But just because someone disagrees with you or is associated with a industry company doesn't automatically make their reviews or posts FUD.

Keep on posting and allow others the courtesy to do the same. And you can assume people can think for themselves to separate the wheat from the chaff.


I wouldn't let b2b get to you much Kosty. I think he just likes trading good barbs more than anything. He does love him some Bluray though!!! :p ;) :)

It's all in fun from where I'm standing. I'm a fan as well- just not of Sony per se.

[scaesare]

you see you are doing the same thing.

What if they both fail and HD DVD fails earlier on? What if BD fails, HD DVD stays niche but the PS3 takes off?

.....

there are many scenarios where BD could fail and yet for ever surpass HD DVD sales.


Maybe you could consider context even LESS next time! Or maybe just string together random words from my post to make an entirely new meaning! WHAT FUN!!!

Or, you could realize: a) the "pretty much" qualifier makes it NOT an absolute, which was the crux of my posts, and b) the (spell it with me now...) C-O-N-T-E-X-T of my post was a scenario like VHS vs. Beta was.

[Talkstr8t]

The most impressive part of that is the $50 price.That's $50 on top of the price of Pinnacle Studio Plus (which isn't terribly expensive on its own, $100 give-or-take usual discounting).
Isn't this an advantage of HD DVDs that Blu-ray cannot match, that is local HD red laser authoring on DVD-Rs? Or can Blu--ray do this also?BD-9 does the same thing - HD playback from red laser media on Blu-ray players.

[BenDover]

Not really, if they can't break the encryption than in my opinion having the encrypted data is insignificant.


When did I ever say that about you? Come now you must have seen at least a few posts made on this forum by people saying that the PS3 has been hacked and that is what I was referring to.

...



if i have the decryption but nothing to decrypt then where doesthat leave you...i sincerely do not know what point you are arguing or trying to make other than seeing it as the defensive/diffusive posture that is always taken...i'll take a page from b2b's book, i'm sorry if you can't understand that the first step is arguably the most crucial ;)

i have read no posts exclaiming that the ps3 has been hacked; had i would likely have been the first to point out that it is a long way from being so...same holds for hd dvd obviously.

i guess i'm not running around the forums as much as you or talk...it is hard enough keeping up as it is having to wade through so much nonsense and bickering.


i know you will post some multi-quoted response so that you can have the last word ... have at it, it's all yours ;)

[AnthonyP]

AT least one other brand (RCA) besides Toshiba,

Kosty has RCA anounced a G2?

[What'sHD]

Here are a couple of interesting things for those who want HD-DVD dead to consider. BD came to market with BD-25 discs and Mpeg2. If magazines weren't writing that HD-DVD looked better, would Sony have been rushing to get BD-50 discs to market? Would there be any BD-50 discs available today? Would you be able to buy Black Hawk Down (BD-50) for $20?

I don't believe so. I believe Sony would be pumping out BD-25 discs for everything and they'd be priced higher.
I totally agree.. HD-DVD has been fantastic for HD fans in many ways, namely:

1. It set the bar for PQ right out of the blocks, thanks go to Amir n gang

2. Cheap, affordable players from Toshiba and MS

3. Drove down BD prices for discs (i think)

4. Drove up BD PQ to equivalence

5. Will be around to keep BD in line (by providing competition) IF they ever abuse their position to lord it over consumers

To me, the add-on and PS3 are both fantastic value and I thank both Sony and MS for making them so affordable.

Well done

[Talkstr8t]

Talk has taken the position that he's here to present accurate information. Having a sig that talks about the future as if it's the past doesn't fit that mold, therefore I've called him on it. Steve, it should be obvious to any reader of even minimal intelligence that my sig is not stated fact, but a strongly held opinion. If I put in my sig "Microsoft is subsidizing Toshiba standalone players" I'd agree with your concerns, since reasonable people might assume I'm claiming it as a fact. It is completely self-evident that "Blu-ray player sales have permanently surpassed HD-DVD" is my prediction and can't be considered a fact.

Even though it is. :D

[Talkstr8t]

BD50 ROM media is still a scarce commodity.

A prime example would be not shipping TDN on a BD50 for 500,000units (PS3).

The lack of BD50 media in the biggest production run of any BR film to date and one that arguably promotes the format to the masses better than anything so far, clearly shows that BD50 is not dime a dozen and production issues still exist.Or, it was a business decision intended to preserve the possibility of some people buying the full version in order to get the extra. I don't think it's a particularly good business decision (they should have put in a disc which shows off all possible features), but the fact they used a BD25 version is certainly no hard evidence that they couldn't have put in the full BD50 version.

[AnthonyP]

Here are a couple of interesting things for those who want HD-DVD dead to consider. BD came to market with BD-25 discs and Mpeg2. If magazines weren't writing that HD-DVD looked better, would Sony have been rushing to get BD-50 discs to market? Would there be any BD-50 discs available today? Would you be able to buy Black Hawk Down (BD-50) for $20?

I don't believe so. I believe Sony would be pumping out BD-25 discs for everything and they'd be priced higher

no, BD 50 was announced and put into the specs before HD DVD 30. There was always the intention to have BD 50.

HD DVD 30 was added to fight it. Go back two years and read Bens posts where no movie needs more then 15GB


PS if you go back to late 2004, early 2005 when Amir was saying Sci-fi, you will also see links to articles that BD50 will show up mid-end 2006 and others around 6months after BD launch

[Talkstr8t]

There is a very good chance that a Taiwanese or Korean designed, mainland China manufactured HD DVD player will be on the market next year and may very well hit that price point of $250 for a street price, if not MSRP. With most consumers reluctant to buy next-gen players for fear of picking the wrong format, do you really think they'll be willing to buy from a brand with less name recognition than Toshiba? Other than Denon or Marantz, neither of whom are likely to field a bargain basement model, I can't think of any other credible CE vendors who haven't already committed to Blu-ray who could possibly field a $250 HD-DVD player.
AT least one other brand (RCA) besides Toshiba, and that's important from a consumer point of view.I certainly wouldn't consider RCA's participation to-date to be particularly valuable, other than allowing Toshiba to claim it isn't a single-vendor format. What has RCA brought to the table? Certainly not advertising, marketing support, or significant retail presence.

[AnthonyP]

Isn't this an advantage of HD DVDs that Blu-ray cannot match, that is local HD red laser authoring on DVD-Rs? Or can Blu--ray do this also?

Kosty: BD-9

[Talkstr8t]

it may be only one step required, but it is by no means insignificant...it is actually a threshold step...No, it's utterly insignificant. No different than copying a DVD from Windows Explorer. It was never intended that you couldn't do that, there's just nothing you can do with the data.

[tvine2000]

I dont understand why you make it out that low balling / subsidizing is a bad thing for HD DVD but a good thing when done by PS3/BR. Hopefully the format with the best PQ/AQ wins and not neccessarily the format with the best marketing scheme
not the best marketing scheme??? tell me what made you buy a ps3,or hd ,or bd. how much reserch have you done compared to the market scheme or hype you listened to. if you did you homework god bless you. understand this most people in the real world know noting about this hd stuff, ps3 with bd drive,whats that they say,they buy it because its a ps3 thats it.when you or i walk into a best buy and listen to a sales person you want to puke ,but most people buy the sales rap!,because they know noting about this stuff and those are the people sony and toshiba and others are counting on ,so if blu-ray can sell a player at 999.00 and right now is not as good as a hd player pq, aq, then they will keep making players like there making. look ,in baseball the yankees look great on paper,but you still got to out and play the games,to win no , people will chose if the price is right and by marketing schemes, that will decide the winner!

[2Channel]

no, BD 50 was announced and put into the specs before HD DVD 30. There was always the intention to have BD 50.

HD DVD 30 was added to fight it. Go back two years and read Bens posts where no movie needs more then 15GB


PS if you go back to late 2004, early 2005 when Amir was saying Sci-fi, you will also see links to articles that BD50 will show up mid-end 2006 and others around 6months after BD launch

I don't dispute that BD-50 was always in the plan. Here are my points again.

If magazines weren't writing that HD-DVD looked better, would Sony have been rushing to get BD-50 discs to market? Would there be any BD-50 discs available today? Would you be able to buy Black Hawk Down (BD-50) for $20?

Sony would not be rushing to get BD-50 out the door with low yields. There would be no BD-50 discs for sale this year if it were not for the competition they face. Without a competing format, Sony would have been slower to improve quality and their prices would be higher than they are. As Kdragon put it HD-DVD has forced BD to become better. Personally, I'm still not satisfied with their progress, or confident of their commitment if the competition were to go away.

[Michael Mullis]

Michael Mullis: it is not elitist, just honesty. It is also not an addiction if you can stop. Does a crack user say "oh my crack finished, I guess I don't need it any more". Different people have different priorities, it does not make one better then an other. My Brother in law just build a fancy cottage, everyone I know has a fancier car, that is where they like spending their money. I have a better display, an HT, they don't , they put their money where they want I put mine where I want.

Anthony, with all due respect, I'd like to show you something.

http://www.nlgaming.com/games/dvd.jpg

That is my DVD collection. That has been my addiction for the better part of the last 6-7 years. That is over 500 movies. That is so many DVD's that I have to actually include the collection in my homeowners insurance. And that doesn't include the HDTV upgrade 2 years ago, the Xbox 360, etc:

Now, thanks to not being a millionaire and having a wife and 2 year old child, I'm having to cut back a bit on my own "addiction".

Without having a $199 solution, I don't go HD DVD at this point. I certainly can not go $499 or even $999 to to Blu-ray. But again with all due respect, don't think for a second I don't know what you're saying. But also don't think for a second that price and affordability doesn't matter either.

[scaesare]

Steve, it should be obvious to any reader of even minimal intelligence that my sig is not stated fact, but a strongly held opinion. If I put in my sig "Microsoft is subsidizing Toshiba standalone players" I'd agree with your concerns, since reasonable people might assume I'm claiming it as a fact. It is completely self-evident that "Blu-ray player sales have permanently surpassed HD-DVD" is my prediction and can't be considered a fact.

Even though it is. :D

And silly bets involving things like signatures on a free message forum ascribe the appropriately small level of overall importance such a thing deserves.

That having been said, I gotta remember to come back her and collect should I need to 4 years from now... I gots me some juicy .sigs for ya.

;)

[UxiSXRD]

Well, here is a surprise...Sony's standalone player finally bows:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=758701

With 24p output no less. Very surprising that this just kinda slipped in under the radar, too...

[AnthonyP]

Sony would not be rushing to get BD-50 out the door with low yields

but they did not rush, there was no change of plan. The plan was for later 2006 and that was what happened. What was said over a year ago almost 2 happened. The "maybe we would not have gotten BD50 if HD DVD was not around" is your unsubstantiated conclusion. BD put it into the specs because studios want it and asked for it (no matter what some "insiders" say) they expected it at this time. Go back and see what Disney had to say when joining BD.

[TomsHT]

not the best marketing scheme??? tell me what made you buy a ps3,or hd ,or bd. how much reserch have you done compared to the market scheme or hype you listened to. if you did you homework god bless you. understand this most people in the real world know noting about this hd stuff, ps3 with bd drive,whats that they say,they buy it because its a ps3 thats it.when you or i walk into a best buy and listen to a sales person you want to puke ,but most people buy the sales rap!,because they know noting about this stuff and those are the people sony and toshiba and others are counting on ,so if blu-ray can sell a player at 999.00 and right now is not as good as a hd player pq, aq, then they will keep making players like there making. look ,in baseball the yankees look great on paper,but you still got to out and play the games,to win no , people will chose if the price is right and by marketing schemes, that will decide the winner!

ok I'm a bit confused by this whole reply but I'll answer to what I think it says.

Why yes before several months ago I new nothing more then the average dvd user except that we wanted to make a rec room with a big TV. So yes after researching it, 5 months later I am not the proud owner of my own dedicated HT room with front projector, 110" screen and a player from each of the formats.

I doubt that most will be as obssesive as me but it is a point in time when most will atleast google a subject before investing thousands in a new tv or format player that there not sure of. Lets face it, for the most part the average consumer is not gonna do a blind buy on a 1k format player that he knows nothing about. He's either gonna atleast look it up or its gonna come from a recommendation from someone he know.

But this all is side stepping my original point which was not whether or not the PS3 is a good marketing scheme. My point was that I would rather see the format with the best PQ/AQ win and not just because of one format or the other flooding the market. I think most of us here are looking for the best PQ/AQ and didnt really think anyone would want to disagree with that.

The price is not right if its not about the PQ. Why would I or others want to pay so much for a new player if its not providing better quality.

[rdjam]

Oh dear...

"PS3 Problems abound..." - http://www.digitimes.com/NewsShow/MailHome.asp?datePublish=2006/11/27&pages=PD&seq=205

...overheating, failure to boot, etc etc - Oh My..

[What'sHD]

Bound to happen.. it happened with the 360, will happen with the PS3 too.

Though, remembering the 360 launch, PS3 seems to be less troublesome.

P.S. I have a 360..

[2Channel]

With 24p output no less. Very surprising that this just kinda slipped in under the radar, too...

Ok, I'll set aside my attitude about Sony for a minute. ;)

Congrats to the folks at Sony for bringing out this player. Am I correct in assuming that this is officially the first HD disc player being sold that is capable of outputing the native 1080p24 source on disc?

My understanding it that this unit is very similar to the new Pioneer BD player (which hasn't shipped yet, or has it now?) which is also based on the Sigma ASIC. Is that all correct? or did I miss anything?

[b2bonez]

Well, here is a surprise...Sony's standalone player finally bows:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=758701

Finally, at last a player with true 24p output straight off the disc. We are now on the road to a "digital film projector" that gives us what has so long been missing.

No BS 30fps or 3:2 pulldown any more and all of the associated crapola that ruins the presentation. Downside is there are going to be a lot of unhappy companies that were making a good living off selling digital processors.

Now all we need is a nice little DLP FP with HDMI 1.3 and native 24fps support...

b2b

[b2bonez]

It seems that PS3 availability is so bad that Microsoft decided not to do the $100 price drop. I have little doubt Microsoft would have gone through with the price drop this Christmas season if Sony had actually been able to bring 1-2 Million PS3s to market.

http://nexgenwars.com/

Well actually the real numbers winner seems to be the Wii. Maybe MS should have chopped off the $100 dollars to defend at the bottom end ?? This quote mentions the competition as Sony for the Wii, but common sense would tell you that a lot of those Wii numbers are coming at the expense of the 360 too.

Sony and MS are battling it out at the top end with HD (plus BD & HD-DVD playback), and Wii is coming along making it a war at the bottom end for Xbox too.
TOKYO (AFP) - Nintendo has said that it had sold more than 600,000 new Wii video game consoles in just eight days in North America in a boost to its efforts to wrest back market dominance from industry leader Sony.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20061128/tc_afp/afpentertainmentjapanuselectronicsgamecompanynintendo_061128 083739

b2b

[2Channel]

Well actually the real numbers winner seems to be the Wii. Maybe MS should have chopped off the $100 dollars to defend at the bottom end ?? This quote mentions the competition as Sony for the Wii, but common sense would tell you that a lot of those Wii numbers are coming at the expense of the 360 too.

Sony and MS are battling it out at the top end with HD (plus BD & HD-DVD playback), and Wii is coming along making it a war at the bottom end for Xbox too.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20061128/tc_afp/afpentertainmentjapanuselectronicsgamecompanynintendo_061128 083739

b2b

Ok, this is weird. I agree with everything you said. I need to go check my temperature now. :)

Here's the engadget blurb on the BPD-S1.

http://www.engadgethd.com/2006/11/28/sonys-bdp-s1-has-landed-finally/

[Rob Zuber]

Come now just because Amir said that he was only repeating what somebody told him you know quite well that Amir said that more than a few times last year.Exactly. Amir consistently posted about this subject over a very long period of time. Any attempt to try to rescue his credibility on that topic is laughable.

[b2bonez]

Ok, this is weird. I agree with everything you said. I need to go check my temperature now. :)

Here's the engadget blurb on the BPD-S1.

http://www.engadgethd.com/2006/11/28/sonys-bdp-s1-has-landed-finally/

Looks like the Sony box is getting started on the right foot bringing true 24p to the mix. I think we are going to see some very nice (price and performace) players from the Sigma chips as we go forward.

b2b

[Kosty]

That's $50 on top of the price of Pinnacle Studio Plus (which isn't terribly expensive on its own, $100 give-or-take usual discounting).
BD-9 does the same thing - HD playback from red laser media on Blu-ray players. Thanks for the clarification. Is it possible for there to be a Blu-ray authoring suite like this or does the encryption issues make this kind of home authoring impossible for Blu-ray?

I would think so, but is red laser authoring on DVD-R a sure thing or is it prohibited? If so why haven't we seen an authoring suite released?

[Kosty]

Kosty has RCA anounced a G2? Not yet, but my guess is that they probably will since I understand they have marketing dollars allocated for HD DVD promotion in 2007.

[Rio]

Stacy Spears confirmed before that Panasonic player does read not only hand-made (he used Blu-Print, though) BD-R but also DVD-R which has BDMV format.

[Kosty]

Finally, at last a player with true 24p output straight off the disc. We are now on the road to a "digital film projector" that gives us what has so long been missing.

No BS 30fps or 3:2 pulldown any more and all of the associated crapola that ruins the presentation. Downside is there are going to be a lot of unhappy companies that were making a good living off selling digital processors.

Now all we need is a nice little DLP FP with HDMI 1.3 and native 24fps support...

b2b I absolutely agree with you here. The future is a player that outputs 1080p24fps and a display device that displays 24fps or a multiple of that like 120fps ( 5 x 24 and 2 x 60).

A 1080p24 output player actually being on the market sets the new standard.

Its a great time to be a home theater enthusiast. :)

[b2bonez]

I said you were not above it, not that you yourself were vested.

More to the point Amir, Talk, etc wear a scarlet letter for all to see. We know where they are coming from and from what perspective to take their comments. In my opinion, it is worse when people play vigilante moderator under the guise of being non partisan.

I like that... I might have to add it to my sig... Do I have your permission to quote you ?? :D

b2b

[Kosty]

Stacy Spears confirmed before that Panasonic player does read not only hand-made (he used Blu-Print, though) BD-R but also DVD-R which has BDMV format. thanks for that information.

[chad_cincy]

Exactly. Amir consistently posted about this subject over a very long period of time. Any attempt to try to rescue his credibility on that topic is laughable.

You and Richard are relentless. I don't understand you justifications for attacking people, particularly when the facts don't add up.

Posts where said insider muttered the words to make BD drones implode:

The original post:
http://archive2.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6280472&&#post6280472

A response where he was just responding to attacks:
http://archive2.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6288745&highlight=science+fiction#post6288745

He mentions it again, and qualifies it with what he prefers to call it and the current state of affairs, circa 10/05:
http://archive2.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6365679&highlight=science+fiction#post6365679

Mentions panel member from DLUX feels it is science fiction at this point:
http://archive2.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6653848&highlight=science+fiction#post6653848

Mentions science fiction to describe non-BD50 related aspects of Blu-Ray, such as DVD/Blu-Ray hybrids:
http://archive2.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7017377&highlight=science+fiction#post7017377

So, as you can see he mentioned it 5 times between 9/05 and 1/06. Two of which had nothing to do with BD50.

So let's extinguish the torches, put the pitchforks back in the barns, and allow this thread to move on.

[2Channel]

Link to various a number of articles on the PS3.

http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=5109

American Technology Research analyst P.J. McNealy assessed Nintendo’s launch as “probably a little better than expected and Sony's has been a little bit more disappointing … If you have to rank on who won this holiday so far, Microsoft is first, Nintendo a close second and Sony a distant third, which is a rare statement.”

[b2bonez]

I absolutely agree with you here. The future is a player that outputs 1080p24fps and a display device that displays 24fps or a multiple of that like 120fps ( 5 x 24 and 2 x 60).

A 1080p24 output player actually being on the market sets the new standard.

Its a great time to be a home theater enthusiast. :)

I have yet to figure out what a 120Hz signal gives you except a lot of redundant data if the source was captured at 24p. All of the problems are centered around video captured in interlaced form (60i) so having 120Hz sounds nice, but I'm not sure it's the panacea for all the issues.

b2b

[UxiSXRD]

Found this on another forum, but ah the irony. PS2 performance and launch was just as dismal as the PS3 and we all know which way the wind blew on that way. Especially not the initial predictions on the original XBox...


http://www.geek.com/news/geeknews/q2...1026002729.htm

When the Dreamcast launched, there weren't very many games for it. Now, some of the most impressive titles are available. The PS2 shipped with only a few dozen games. In all fairness, it does play most original Playstation games.
For this comparison, I tested a variety of games (it's a rough life being a reviewer). On the Dreamcast, I played NFL2K, Quake III Arena, Dead or Alive 2, and a very bizarre but cool game called Jet Grind Radio. On the PS2, I played SSX, Madden 2001, and Tekken Tag Tournament. Between NFL2K and the comparable Madden 2001 (both football games), there was no significant difference in graphics (actually, I enjoyed NFL2K more for its game play). Between Dead or Alive 2 and Tekken, once again, the graphics were almost too close to call. The PS2 had a slight edge, with somewhat richer backgrounds and smoother characters. The cheering/jeering crowd in the background of the PS2 was impressive - but the Dreamcast came very close to matching the rich 3D graphic fighting. SSX, probably the most popular game for the PS2 right now, was clearly better graphically than anything on the Dreamcast. While I wasn't able to test a comparable title for Dreamcast (probably Tony Hawk 2 would be closest), I did try Jet Grind Radio, a graffiti/skating game for Dreamcast (you have to see it) which has great graphics too, and better, more original game play. Overall, between the PS2 and the Dreamcast, there is not as significant a difference in graphics quality as you might expect. Sure the PS2 can handle more polygons on paper, but when you actually see games side by side, the difference is not what you'd expect given the hype ... and the price=2E "How do you explain this?" you might ask. Well, just like an Apple running faster at 450MHz than a Pentium III running at 700MHz, it's the way the system is using the processing power that matters, not just the raw numbers. You can't simply count polygons, memory, or megahertz, since each system uses its resources differently, and much of the efficiency comes from the way that programmers utilize these resources. Apparently, the PS2 is not that easy to program, while the Dreamcast has proven to be a big hit with developers. Titles for the PS2 will clearly get better in the long run, as programmers exploit more of the system's resources, but here and now, it's almost dead even.


http://www.geek.com/news/geeknews/q2...1026002729.htm



Close to the US release date of the PS2, Sony announced disappointing earnings, with operating profits down 13% as it prepares for the ramp up of Sony PS2 consoles. CNet asks the question about whether the PS2 will continue selling at such fervent levels after the initial few months. Feedbag.com has a commentary about whether the PS2 could turn into a Betamax for the console world once the Xbox hits next year.

So, that was the news, but what's the reality of the situation? I checked at Buy.com's PS2 store page and it didn't have any PS2s available. Perhaps it was sold out, or perhaps it didn't even have any to sell. Buy was offering free shipping on it between 12:01 A.M. and 3:00 A.M., but its text message doesn't imply that it sold out.

As for eBay, there are 4,347 items found when I did a search on "Playstation 2." Systems are selling for $500 and up, with some hitting over $1,300. That's purely outrageous, as you could pay $1300 and get a computer that plays games a lot better than a crappy $300 console.


http://expn.go.com/skt/s/2000/0728/821.html



The PS2 has already launched in Japan and posted record sales. The list of titles, while mostly lame, still are beat those available at the Japanese launch of any other system. For Americans, the only titles of note are Ridge Racer V and Street Fighter EX. Both are familiar franchises with some impressive graphics, but are they so much farther ahead of what we see on the Dreamcast now? Not even close. Launch titles or not, neither game can boast being better than their Dreamcast counterparts. Street Fighter EX, in particular, isnt even in the same league as Soul Calibur (a Dreamcast launch title). So what if the PS2 can generate more than 70 million polygons a second and has had its picture on the cover of Newsweek; certainly didnt help their developers make better games, now did it?

This brings us to the last and most important factor to consider: the ease of development for the system. The PS2 is, without a doubt, the more powerful of the two machines and will have a marketing budget behind it that Sega will never be able to match. What it doesnt have is a developer friendly reputation. Companies are already complaining that getting the PS2 to perform to its potential is a frustrating process. The Dreamcast, on the other hand, is much easier to design on, making for shorter development periods and some really impressive games. This may not seem like such a big deal, but witness the demise of the Saturn, Segas 32-bit debacle. It was much more difficult to develop for than the PlayStation and look what happened as a result? Mind you, Sega also had the momentum and consumer favor, coming off the enormous success of the Genesis; see any similarities?


http://ps2.ign.com/articles/164/164858p1.html



Considering that Rayman 2: Revolution wasn't programmed specifically for the PlayStation 2 platform, as Criterion's RenderWare 2 was apparently used to help port the game over, it looks surprisingly good. On the downside, the game suffers from some slowdown problems that weren't apparent in the Dreamcast game, which had a rock solid 60 frames per second framerate throughout, and the quality of the grass and background textures are nowhere as detailed. While on the other hand, its overall look is as good, if not even a little bit better, than any other version of the game.

The colors used in the game have a much brighter and vibrant look to them, so much so that it seems like it might have been a clear-cut attempt by the developers to give an even more cartoonish look and feel. There are also all-new lighting effects and Rayman actually casts a realtime shadow instead of the bland circular shadow that appeared below him in his previous outings. And many of the background elements that were simple textures before are now fully realized 3D polygonal objects. It's not a groundbreaking leap forward in visual presentation, but when taken altogether is definitely a progressive step forward in the game's technical level presentation.
It's also worth noting that Rayman, himself, looks better than ever in this game than ever before. His polygonal model has much smoother edges and he appears to be more rounded and alive thanks to better texturing and lighting on his body. The differences, however, are quite minute and most people won't notice it unless they go back and forth between both versions on a switchbox. Even with the plusses, such as the brighter colors, additional 3D background objects, better looking character models, and improved lighting, one can't help but think of the Dreamcast version as the better looking of the two games. While the PS2 game might have some things that make it look a little better in certain areas, it has more graphical flaws like slowdown and seaming problems between polygons in the backgrounds. Rayman 2 looks great on PS2, but it was definitely much more polished on Dreamcast.

[UxiSXRD]

I have yet to figure out what a 120Hz signal gives you except a lot of redundant data if the source was captured at 24p. All of the problems are centered around video captured in interlaced form (60i) so having 120Hz sounds nice, but I'm not sure it's the panacea for all the issues.



I believe some folks this will be the solution to both frame rates (60 and 24) without any of the associated judder issues, etc.

I would probably prefer dual 24/60 mode myself...

[b2bonez]

You and Richard are relentless. I don't understand you justifications for attacking people, particularly when the facts don't add up.

Posts where said insider muttered the words to make BD drones implode:

The original post:
http://archive2.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6280472&&#post6280472

A response where he was just responding to attacks:
http://archive2.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6288745&highlight=science+fiction#post6288745

He mentions it again, and qualifies it with what he prefers to call it and the current state of affairs, circa 10/05:
http://archive2.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6365679&highlight=science+fiction#post6365679

Mentions panel member from DLUX feels it is science fiction at this point:
http://archive2.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6653848&highlight=science+fiction#post6653848

Mentions science fiction to describe non-BD50 related aspects of Blu-Ray, such as DVD/Blu-Ray hybrids:
http://archive2.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7017377&highlight=science+fiction#post7017377

So, as you can see he mentioned it 5 times between 9/05 and 1/06. Two of which had nothing to do with BD50.

So let's extinguish the torches, put the pitchforks back in the barns, and allow this thread to move on.
I thought we had.. ;) But now that you've done all the research, that first link you posted is classic FUD in its most skillful form.

1. Set up the premise... "I am asking people to not confuse dream with "potential" "
2. Quote an "authority"... "One of the top replicators told me privately that DL BD is "science fiction" "
3. Disavow the premise is speculation... "Of course, you are free to assume I am making this stuff up."
4. And finally drive home as much Fear Uncertainty and Doubt as possible with a summation... "ask what is real, what is just some theory an engineer came up with at late night and takes millions of dollars to prove and billions to deploy...."

That's it.. your 5 minute class on the art of "FUD" (complete with illustrations) :)

b2b

[Richard Paul]

You and Richard are relentless. I don't understand you justifications for attacking people, particularly when the facts don't add up.chad, if Amir didn't make negative posts against Blu-ray so often I would not have criticized him so often for doing so. As such I don't see how you can blame me for criticizing him while considering Amir blameless for his negative posts. Also the reason that people point to what Amir said is not that he said that phrase often but that it was the pinnacle of the many negative posts he made against BD-50. Any interest in listing all of those?


So let's extinguish the torches, put the pitchforks back in the barns, and allow this thread to move on.Sure, but honestly speaking you shouldn't have brought it up (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9014860&&#post9014860) if you didn't want a debate about it

[Kosty]

Its kinda strange to be attacking a poster who isn't actively posting in this thread anymore.

Suggest we move on.

[Kosty]

Link to various a number of articles on the PS3.

http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=5109

American Technology Research analyst P.J. McNealy assessed Nintendo’s launch as “probably a little better than expected and Sony's has been a little bit more disappointing … If you have to rank on who won this holiday so far, Microsoft is first, Nintendo a close second and Sony a distant third, which is a rare statement.” That goes to my point about the NY Times, Time magazine and Washington Post articles the monday after the launch.

Bad PR articles in those major news outlets tend to snowball.There appears to be a minor consensus
The mainstream press has caught onto overall consumer reaction to the PlayStation 3 and Wii launches, and are offering recaps of the week since the console release madness.Research analysts also chime in, with New Media Strategies figuring that 38% who sought a PS3 and were subjected "to sleep deprivation, lost wages, missed classes, the elements and even muggings came away from the experience with a bitter taste in their mouths." The firm also said, “[Sony’s] hype machine went too far.” The Darth Vader helmet look of the PS3 is a hit, but the games are a miss. Wired News says that the PS3 packs promise, but lacks punch, pointing out what an absolute bargain the hardware package is (considering Sony is losing between $240 and $300 on each unit sold) but that the console has little use at the momentThe New York Times gives the PS3 a rather harsh assessment saying, “[Sony’s] new video game system just isn’t that great.” Sony needs to get some good press on some later game releases to break the bad press trend.

[scaesare]

No, it's utterly insignificant. No different than copying a DVD from Windows Explorer. It was never intended that you couldn't do that, there's just nothing you can do with the data.

I have to agree that managing to get the encrypted data out of the container is not a significant development.

[scaesare]

but they did not rush, there was no change of plan. The plan was for later 2006 and that was what happened. What was said over a year ago almost 2 happened. The "maybe we would not have gotten BD50 if HD DVD was not around" is your unsubstantiated conclusion. BD put it into the specs because studios want it and asked for it (no matter what some "insiders" say) they expected it at this time. Go back and see what Disney had to say when joining BD.

Dude. Seriously... do you do this on purpose?

He's talking about when Sony decided to USE BD50's, not when/why it was included in the specs.

He made a "suggestion" (hint: the word "maybe"), as to the schedule. Given both sides actions, it's probably reasonable to speculate that both sides had to step it up due to the competition.

[scaesare]

Ok, I'll set aside my attitude about Sony for a minute. ;)

Congrats to the folks at Sony for bringing out this player. Am I correct in assuming that this is officially the first HD disc player being sold that is capable of outputing the native 1080p24 source on disc?

My understanding it that this unit is very similar to the new Pioneer BD player (which hasn't shipped yet, or has it now?) which is also based on the Sigma ASIC. Is that all correct? or did I miss anything?


Hear, hear. I hope this sets the bar for including 24p output and the HD DVD camp follows suit ASAP.

[Grubert]

One of the first owners of a Sony BDP-S1 player reports (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9017711&&#post9017711):

Just changed it to direct and BOOM 24fps via HDMI to my "pearl" projector. YEAH BABY!

1080p/24fps is pretty damn impressive. Action scenes are much smoother. Pans across the screen are a lot better.

[scaesare]

I have yet to figure out what a 120Hz signal gives you except a lot of redundant data if the source was captured at 24p. All of the problems are centered around video captured in interlaced form (60i) so having 120Hz sounds nice, but I'm not sure it's the panacea for all the issues.

b2b

The ideal of 120Hz is not that it's a transmitted signal from the source device, it's that it works well as a refresh rate on your display device that's an even multiple of 24, 30, and 60. No additional redundant data needs to be sent over your interconnects.

Therefore whatever signal your playback device sends, the display dosn't have to change refresh rates with a potentially ugly re-sync. It merely needs to repeat frames as necessary. Additionally, mixed-content (say a 24p movie with 60i PiP) all "fits" within the 120Hz display rate with no need for telecine/IVT and or decimation.

[Grubert]

How can you transmit 1080p120, especially over long distances, if 60Hz is already a challenge?

[bobgpsr]

How can you transmit 1080p120, especially over long distances, if 60Hz is already a challenge?
As Steve says, you don't. The 120 Hz is for internal display use only.

[SamwisetheBrave]

Mike: the same way as Toshiba with their gigantic losses
Wow! I didn't realize Toshiba was selling a game console! :eek:

[BenDover]

No, it's utterly insignificant. No different than copying a DVD from Windows Explorer. It was never intended that you couldn't do that, there's just nothing you can do with the data.

time will tell.. :rolleyes:

you and richard seem to have lost sight of my original post which was in the context of the ps3, not just in general...

[BenDover]

Finally, at last a player with true 24p output straight off the disc. We are now on the road to a "digital film projector" that gives us what has so long been missing.

No BS 30fps or 3:2 pulldown any more and all of the associated crapola that ruins the presentation. Downside is there are going to be a lot of unhappy companies that were making a good living off selling digital processors.

Now all we need is a nice little DLP FP with HDMI 1.3 and native 24fps support...

b2b


maybe this will do, for now:

http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1697,2064808,00.asp

[trbarry]

The ideal of 120Hz is not that it's a transmitted signal from the source device, it's that it works well as a refresh rate on your display device that's an even multiple of 24, 30, and 60. No additional redundant data needs to be sent over your interconnects.

Therefore whatever signal your playback device sends, the display dosn't have to change refresh rates with a potentially ugly re-sync. It merely needs to repeat frames as necessary. Additionally, mixed-content (say a 24p movie with 60i PiP) all "fits" within the 120Hz display rate with no need for telecine/IVT and or decimation.

Agreed. But I'm not even sure that over 60-80 Hz the rate even needs to be an exact multiple of the refresh rate, though I have never seen any studies of that.

But if, say, you had a 24 fps picture and an 87 fps frame rate then the proper display time for any new frame would already be off by a maximum of only 1/174 of a second if the display cleverly chose which new frame refresh to display the new picture. I don't know if that would cause any visible judder, but I doubt it.

I kinda suspect that for non-CRT's (and non-color-wheels's?) someone should just come out with a display that has no refresh rate at all but instead simply displays each new frame at the proper time stamp, at least up to some given frequency. But I don't know if HDMI even passes time stamps.

120 certainly puts those questions to bed for the USA but if we are also blending in 50Hz and 25 Hz pictures the questions become interesting again.

- Tom

[b2bonez]

The ideal of 120Hz is not that it's a transmitted signal from the source device, it's that it works well as a refresh rate on your display device that's an even multiple of 24, 30, and 60. No additional redundant data needs to be sent over your interconnects.

Therefore whatever signal your playback device sends, the display dosn't have to change refresh rates with a potentially ugly re-sync. It merely needs to repeat frames as necessary. Additionally, mixed-content (say a 24p movie with 60i PiP) all "fits" within the 120Hz display rate with no need for telecine/IVT and or decimation.

I could see content being mixed at the display device and having different native frame rates of progressive and interlaced capture, but having the source signal with those mixed together below 120Hz would be almost impossible. That's the reason that BD mandates that PiP material is the same fps (24p) as the feature (24p for film) and why HD-DVD mandates that 24p material is encoded with 3:2 pulldown flags for a "encoded frame rate" of 29.97.

b2b

[b2bonez]

Agreed. But I'm not even sure that over 60-80 Hz the rate even needs to be an exact multiple of the refresh rate, though I have never seen any studies of that.

But if, say, you had a 24 fps picture and an 87 fps frame rate then the proper display time for any new frame would already be off by a maximum of only 1/174 of a second if the display cleverly chose which new frame refresh to display the new picture. I don't know if that would cause any visible judder, but I doubt it.

I kinda suspect that for non-CRT's (and non-color-wheels's?) someone should just come out with a display that has no refresh rate at all but instead simply displays each new frame at the proper time stamp, at least up to some given frequency. But I don't know if HDMI even passes time stamps.

120 certainly puts those questions to bed for the USA but if we are also blending in 50Hz and 25 Hz pictures the questions become interesting again.

- Tom

It sounds easy, but it isn't, I think you agree by way of your descriptions. Otherwise there wouldn't be products like the Faroudja or HQV video processors for deinterlacing and IVTC.

Anytime you get to drive a stake into the heart of interlaced video is a good day.. ;)

b2b

[bobgpsr]

... but having the source signal with those mixed together below 120Hz would be almost impossible...
Really? I'm being to think that maybe 1080i60 with flags as needed for mixed 24 fps and 30 fps content is the way to go for transport after all. Then at the receiving end video processing sorts it all out and throws it up on the 120 Hz refresh display as needed. Lower & efficient use of cabling bandwidth and no added judder at the display.

Bob

[b2bonez]

Really? I'm being to think that maybe 1080i60 with flags as needed for mixed 24 fps and 30 fps content is the way to go for transport after all. Then at the receiving end video processing sorts it all out and throws it up on the 120 Hz refresh display as needed. Lower & efficient use of cabling bandwidth and no added judder at the display.

Bob

Well if you can dig up a copy of what HDMI 1.3 supports as far as the video streams then we can see. I've searched and never found a source unless you want to pay big bucks for the copy.

b2b

[bobgpsr]

Well if you can dig up a copy of what HDMI 1.3 supports as far as the video streams then we can see. I've searched and never found a source unless you want to pay big bucks for the copy.
I have a copy at work (HDMI_Spec_1.3_GM1.pdf) but 1080i60 will go out fine with HDMI 1.1 (current players use it -- 1080i).

[b2bonez]

I have a copy at work (HDMI_Spec_1.3_GM1.pdf) but 1080i60 will go out fine with HDMI 1.1 (current players use it -- 1080i).

There is another doccument that the HDMI specs refer to (EIA 6??? or something like that) that has the actual video formats that are supported. DVI also refers to it and there are different rev. numbers to the doc.

Edit: Found it.. EIA/CEA-861C and I think there is a "D" rev too.

b2b

[bobgpsr]

EIA/CEA-861C and I think there is a "D" rev too.
A snippet from the HDMI 1.3 spec:
Note: in order to allow displays to indicate a wide range of supported video formats, the source
must be able to read EDID information from all defined blocks and must read and understand
DTDs and SVDs as defined in CEA-861-D.

Bob

Edit: a few more references to CEA-861:
CEA, CEA-861-D, “A DTV Profile For Uncompressed High Speed Digital Interfaces”

All HDMI devices are required to comply with the requirements specified in CEA-861-D
except where specifically noted in this document. The CEA-861-D term “source” should be
read as “(HDMI) Source” and the terms “Display”, “Monitor” or “DTV Monitor” should be read
as “(HDMI) Sink”.

Price: $193.00 (Standard) $144.75 (CEA Member)

[b2bonez]

A snippet from the HDMI 1.3 spec:


Bob

Edit: a few more references to CEA-861:

CEA-861-D is the "Rosetta Stone" for all of the supported signal rates and resolutions and I can't find a copy (short of buying one (Edit:)) for $193.00).

b2b

[scaesare]

I could see content being mixed at the display device and having different native frame rates of progressive and interlaced capture, but having the source signal with those mixed together below 120Hz would be almost impossible. That's the reason that BD mandates that PiP material is the same fps (24p) as the feature (24p for film) and why HD-DVD mandates that 24p material is encoded with 3:2 pulldown flags for a "encoded frame rate" of 29.97.

b2b

I didn't word that clearly... certainly that would have to be diplay-side only (hence my mention of not tranmsitting at 120Hz). The advantage of that display is that you could enable PiP form a second source input at a different rate, and not introduce cadence judder or decimation artifacts.

Multiple framerates at the source are still an issue, certainly.

[nilsp]

Oh dear...

"PS3 Problems abound..." - http://www.digitimes.com/NewsShow/MailHome.asp?datePublish=2006/11/27&pages=PD&seq=205

...overheating, failure to boot, etc etc - Oh My..

News so good it was really necessary to post it again?

[2Channel]

Found this on another forum, but ah the irony. PS2 performance and launch was just as dismal as the PS3 and we all know which way the wind blew on that way. Especially not the initial predictions on the original XBox...

http://www.geek.com/news/geeknews/q2...1026002729.htm

http://www.geek.com/news/geeknews/q2...1026002729.htm

http://expn.go.com/skt/s/2000/0728/821.html

http://ps2.ign.com/articles/164/164858p1.html

First, comparing Sony to Sega ..... well please. Sega was already on the ropes when they launched the Dreamcast. It was their swan song and I remember that launch.....a lot of people new it was over for Sega.

If we want to compare the ps2 launch (since it was a succesful platform) to the PS3 launch and what it portends, let's take a look.

The PS2 Launched in Japan on 3/4/2000, US on 10/26/2000 and EU on 11/24/2000. It's competitor the Xbox launched in the US on 11/15/2001, Japan on 2/22/2002 and EU on 3/14/2002.

Yet, the PS2 initially sold well partly on the basis of the strength of the PlayStation brand and its backwards compatibility, selling over 900,000 units in the first weekend in Japan. This allowed the PS2 to tap the large install base established by the PlayStation - another major selling point over the competition. Later, Sony gained steam with new development kits for game developers and more PlayStations for consumers.
****
Many analysts predicted a close 3-way matchup between the PS2 and its soon-to-be-released competitors Microsoft's Xbox and Nintendo's GameCube (which was the cheapest of the 3 consoles and had an open market of games). However, the release of several blockbuster games during the 2001 holiday season pushed the PS2 in order to maintain momentum and hold off its potential rivals.

source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PlayStation_2#History

Though the PS2 had early supply constraint problems, it never prevented Sony from achieving a big launch. PS2 had a year+ head start on the Xbox and had the chance to build a good selection of games. The PS2 had grown to an installed base of millions of consoles before the first Xbox ever shipped at the matching price of $299. When the Xbox did launch, many reviewers felt that it wasn't a significant step up in graphics performance from what was already available on the PS2.

Does all of this sound familiar? We have a very similar situation today but with roles reversed. My opinion is that Sony had too many missions for the PS3 to accomplish. The result is that the PS3 was late to market and more expensive than its main competitor (for it's primary game playing market). I believe Sony will loose the console crown for this generation. The bigger question is how will this impact the format war?

[UxiSXRD]

My point was the issues they were bringing up: "costs too much" , "not enough supply", "outrageous ebay pricing", "too hard to program for" compared to X (in this case Dreamcast), etc and the irony that the exact same arguments are being used against the PS3 today by it's detractors.

I do believe PS3 will beat the 360 at the gaming war and that Blu-ray is mostly likely to win the format war. I'm not a partisan, though, and already own a 360 and HD-DVD, so won't really be weeping if the opposite should occur, or if there should be a long drawn out format war (or even if it resolves like DVD+/-R). PS3 will be a factor, but not as great as the preponderance of CE and movie studio support in the format war, though.

Incidentally, I skipped both Dreamcast & Saturn after my Genesis, though owned both the original XBox and PS2. I long ago sold the Xbox after the novelty of chipping it and playing ROM'ed NES games, etc wore off, however.

[BenDover]

OUCH, story on TGDaily (http://www.tgdaily.com/2006/11/29/enderle_on_christmas_trends/): (I was wondering about this writer's credibility, have at him b2b ;))

HD DVD wins, Blu-ray loses
Much like it is with game systems; competing formats for video are not about the best technology. They are about the most prevalent technology. It is expensive to publish movies and, at least for now, you can't put Blu-ray and HD DVD disks into the same box.

With the Xbox 360 moving so strongly into the market and the top accessory this year being the $200 HD-DVD drive the battle may be over by year end. There is every chance that there may be as many as ten times more HD DVD players than Blu-ray players in the market by the end of the year - even if you don't factor in that HP, the current leader in PC sales, started shipping desktop computers with a $100 HD DVD option. This, coupled with a much lower overall cost for the stand alone players as well as better support for legacy TVs and dual mode disks (that have both legacy DVD and HD-DVD content on a single disk), suggests that HD-DVD is now the format to beat.

HD-DVD wins because of the Xbox 360 - which is ironic, given Blu-ray should have won because of the Playstation 3. Instead, Blu-ray has delayed the Playstation 3 to a point where Sony may have to wait until the Playstation 4 to recover.

BetaMax, Mini-Disk, MemoryStick, and now Blu-ray. At least Sony is consistent. Also, if there is one company that is really looking forward to a better 2007 more than Sony I don't know of it. Boy, when you couple in root kits and battery/camera recalls, you are talking about a really nasty run of bad luck for Sony this year.

[wco81]

TG Daily, snicker.

We've roasted TG Daily's credibility before.

[b2bonez]

OUCH, story on TGDaily (http://www.tgdaily.com/2006/11/29/enderle_on_christmas_trends/): (I was wondering about this writer's credibility, have at him b2b ;))
There is every chance that there may be as many as ten times more HD DVD players than Blu-ray players in the market by the end of the year

I guess that Toshiba struck a new vein in their blue laser mining operations... ;)

b2b

[mikemorel]

OUCH, story on TGDaily (http://www.tgdaily.com/2006/11/29/enderle_on_christmas_trends/): (I was wondering about this writer's credibility, have at him b2b ;))

I saw this earlier today. He is stretching a bit here...

With the Xbox 360 moving so strongly into the market and the top accessory this year being the $200 HD-DVD drive the battle may be over by year end. There is every chance that there may be as many as ten times more HD DVD players than Blu-ray players in the market by the end of the year - even if you don't factor in that HP, the current leader in PC sales, started shipping desktop computers with a $100 HD DVD option. This, coupled with a much lower overall cost for the stand alone players as well as better support for legacy TVs and dual mode disks (that have both legacy DVD and HD-DVD content on a single disk), suggests that HD-DVD is now the format to beat.But would be huge fun just because of Talkstr8t's Signature. :p

[mikemorel]

TG Daily, snicker.

We've roasted TG Daily's credibility before.And they were right before, as well. Remember the BD-J story right after CES in January?
I guess that Toshiba struck a new vein in their blue laser mining operations... One of those articles I posted in the diode thread said:

Toshiba is the sole HD-DVD hardware supplier at present, is offering players, recorders and PC drives and supplying a drive for Microsoft's Xbox 360 on an OEM basis. Shinichi Ito, senior manger of the digital AV division of Toshiba, said the company has had no laser diode supply problems and is "not worried about the supply at all."Maybe they did?

[b2bonez]

I saw this earlier today. He is stretching a bit here...

But would be huge fun just because of Talkstr8t's Signature. :p

I don't think I would want to be one of his clients... Maybe someone should hire him to "counter point" himself... ;)
Counterpoint is designed as insurance against this practice. It provides consulting services during the review process of a poorly founded negative piece on a vendor or its products and, should it be needed, will showcase the research errors, statistical mistakes, and unfounded conclusions that often define such a piece.

http://www.enderlegroup.com/products/prod_counterpoint.htm

b2b

[2Channel]

OUCH, story on TGDaily (http://www.tgdaily.com/2006/11/29/enderle_on_christmas_trends/): (I was wondering about this writer's credibility, have at him b2b ;))

Thanks BenDover, great catch. The more these stories seep into the public consciousness, the more it strengthens HD-DVD. The power of the media....

If Toshiba and Microsoft really did secure big contracts with Nichia early on, we'll be reading more stories like this over the next few months.

[b2bonez]

And they were right before, as well. Remember the BD-J story right after CES in January?
One of those articles I posted in the diode thread said:

Maybe they did?

Ten times ??? That would mean a supply of 10 million... For that they would need one of the replicators off of the Enterprise.. :)

b2b

[2Channel]

Ten times ??? That would mean a supply of 10 million... For that they would need one of the replicators off of the Enterprise.. :)

b2b
I doubt UPS would just drop off the whole order one day. ;)

Perhaps it's a long term contract.

[rdjam]

Stacy Spears confirmed before that Panasonic player does read not only hand-made (he used Blu-Print, though) BD-R but also DVD-R which has BDMV format.
Also, Sony has stated that their player cannot play BD-Rs without a future promised firmware update.

[b2bonez]

I doubt UPS would just drop off the whole order one day. ;)

Perhaps it's a long term contract.
There is every chance that there may be as many as ten times more HD DVD players than Blu-ray players in the market by the end of the year

Tick~Tock... the year is almost over... ;)

b2b

[rdjam]

News so good it was really necessary to post it again?
Was only once ;) but I'm assuming your point in saying I posted it twice was?

[rdjam]

TWO THOUSAND supporters for the HD DVD studio petition now...

[Ripvan]

TWO THOUSAND supporters for the HD DVD studio petition now...

It shows 858 as of 1 minute ago, where did you see 2000?

[onanie]

It shows 858 as of 1 minute ago, where did you see 2000?

The number goes up by 1000 every random post, LOL

[2Channel]

Tick~Tock... the year is almost over... ;)

b2b

ahhh...by the end of this year. Yeah, he's wrong on that, though there will be ten times more Xbox 360's than PS3s by the end of the year.

Maybe he meant that there will be ten times as many devices actually being used for HD-DVD playback vs. devices being used for BD playback by the end of the year. That's quite possible. ;)

[BenDover]

Ten times ??? That would mean a supply of 10 million... For that they would need one of the replicators off of the Enterprise.. :)

b2b


all kidding aside, does anyone really think sony will have shipped 1M ps3s by dec 31?

tick tock ;)

[onanie]

all kidding aside, does anyone really think sony will have shipped 1M ps3s by dec 31?

tick tock ;)

They are probably 1/3 of the way there already, no?

[2Channel]

all kidding aside, does anyone really think sony will have shipped 1M ps3s by dec 31?

tick tock ;)

Are you suggesting that Sony has over estimated the number of PS3s they will have available to sell? Why would they mislead their customers? :rolleyes:

The other one I'm wondering about is their promise to ship 6 Million PS3s by 3/07. They must have truly worked out blue laser yields if they're going to hit that number.

[mikemorel]

They are probably 1/3 of the way there already, no?

From the Reuters Summit today...Can't quote dierctly from Reuter's as they delete their links...

EA: Sony to Ship 500K to 800K PS3 in 2006 (http://www.kotaku.com/gaming/top/ea-sony-to-ship-500k-to-800k-ps3-in-2006-218058.php)

NEW YORK, Nov 29 (Reuters) - Electronic Arts Inc. CEO Larry Probst said on Wednesday that initial shipments of Sony Corp.'s <6758.T> new PlayStation 3 have been below his expectations due to shortages, though overall holiday sales thus far of video games and players were at or slightly ahead of targets.

His comments at the Reuters Media Summit in New York pushed down shares of EA, the world's biggest video game publisher, by nearly 2 percent.

Probst said demand for Sony's much-anticipated PlayStation 3 (PS3), which made its U.S. debut on Nov. 17 for the critical holiday season, was strong but a shortage of supply meant that only about 200,000 units of the game console were sold at retail outlets.

Sony had originally aimed to ship 400,000 PS3 units for its U.S. launch, and has not given actual figures.

Probst said that EA had set a lower bar for initial shipments, but "where they ended up was a bit of a surprise."

By the end of 2006, he expects Sony to ship 500,000 to 800,000 units.

"We think they'll get into that range," said Probst, who noted that console sales and corresponding game sales were typically slow to begin with because of supply constraints, and a clear winner will not be known for as long as five years.

[rdjam]

It shows 858 as of 1 minute ago, where did you see 2000?
Hi Ripvan - I understand your confusion.

We have 6 different petitions that were active since we first started earlier in the year.

As facts changed, and temperaments softened, we created new petitions, since modifying existing ones invalidated tham.

Some of the 2,000 people have signed up on the older petitions, some on the newer petitions.

The latest petition may show 868, but the other signatories signed up on older ones.

There are also some people who have signed up to all the petitions, but our database uses the email address as a unique, non-duplicate index key.

So after compiling ALL the petitioners from the various petitions, we have 2,085 unique people signed up.

Some people on these boards try to make it sound like these numbers are made up - but that's only because it suits them to knock the credibility of the petitions...

Hope the explanation makes it clear.

[AnthonyP]

I have yet to figure out what a 120Hz signal gives you except a lot of redundant data if the source was captured at 24p. All of the problems are centered around video captured in interlaced form (60i) so having 120Hz sounds nice, but I'm not sure it's the panacea for all the issues.

B2B perfect division. No 3:2 pull down. no place for errors. works well with 24p, 30p and 60i

[AnthonyP]

Dude. Seriously... do you do this on purpose?


scaesare: what? point out how some people like to jump to stupid conclusions? Only when someone posts something stupid? Considering 2 years ago Sony had said BD-50 will show up around the time it did, is way more important then an HD DVD supporters fantasy that BD 50 showed up because "BD sux"

[b2bonez]

Are you suggesting that Sony has over estimated the number of PS3s they will have available to sell? Why would they mislead their customers? :rolleyes:

The other one I'm wondering about is their promise to ship 6 Million PS3s by 3/07. They must have truly worked out blue laser yields if they're going to hit that number.

Any yield for blue laser diodes is good.. :) Read this article and you will see that it has been one of the toughest nuts to crack in all of material science.
For two decades, researchers working for the biggest players in the electronics industry, from RCA and Hewlett-Packard to Matsushita and Sony, tried their hands at the blue laser diode and failed. Nakamura, a self-described country boy, did it while working for Nichia Chemical Industries Ltd. in Tokushima, Japan.

http://www.sciencewatch.com/jan-feb2000/sw_jan-feb2000_page3.htm

b2b

[What'sHD]

ahhh...by the end of this year. Yeah, he's wrong on that, though there will be ten times more Xbox 360's than PS3s by the end of the year.

There better be.. considering 360 will have been in the market for >8 times longer.
Actually, the figures are even more flattering right now, 6M vs what 200K?

Let's use this sample instead of waiting all the way till NY :)

So, that's .. um, carry the 3.. 30 times more. Only time in its history that xbox can claim that, what? :D

[2Channel]

scaesare: what? point out how some people like to jump to stupid conclusions? Only when someone posts something stupid? Considering 2 years ago Sony had said BD-50 will show up around the time it did, is way more important then an HD DVD supporters fantasy that BD 50 showed up because "BD sux"

This is why I let it go. ;)

What's the old saw about wrestling with.......

[darinp2]

OUCH, story on TGDaily (http://www.tgdaily.com/2006/11/29/enderle_on_christmas_trends/):
There is every chance that there may be as many as ten times more HD DVD players than Blu-ray players in the market by the end of the year - even if you don't factor in that HP, the current leader in PC sales, started shipping desktop computers with a $100 HD DVD option.I wonder if this guy is counting each PS3 as zero. Even if he only counted 10% of them I think he would be stretching.

Also, while he might end up being right about HD DVD winning in the US, I think it has a very big uphill battle in Japan and if it does win in the US (and maybe Europe) it would likely mean a split between which format wins there and which wins in Japan. Meaning of course that many manufacturers would need to build both in the long run.

--Darin

[K.L.]

HD DVD in a PC? That's nothing when it can't record a disc...

Besides, the silliness of the TGDaily article and Rob Enderle, Principal Analyst, Enderle Group is that they are ignorant about the blue laser diodes shortage.

[thomopolis]

Again, there is no win. As long as the market is big enough studios will put their movies out on the format to collect the money. LD's sold a whopping 2 million players over 24 years - at no time was more than 500K - 700K in use, and the format was still supported because the owners money was green.

Divx sold a whopping 10 discs beyond the 5 free ones with each player, so it was canned.


As long as some percentage of PS3 owners buy BD, movies will be available - especially if it is a hit in Japan which will bring down production costs. Same goes for HD-DVD and the add-on.

There will be two formats for a very long time.

[thomopolis]

There are also some people who have signed up to all the petitions, but our database uses the email address as a unique, non-duplicate index key.

So after compiling ALL the petitioners from the various petitions, we have 2,085 unique people signed up.

Some people on these boards try to make it sound like these numbers are made up - but that's only because it suits them to knock the credibility of the petitions...

Hope the explanation makes it clear.


Not saying you are making up any numbers, but unique emails do not portend unique people. I myself have four I regularly use. Though, I doubt that anybody would ever be so insidious of posting more than once on an interent petition.

[2Channel]

There better be.. considering 360 will have been in the market for >8 times longer.
Actually, the figures are even more flattering right now, 6M vs what 200K?

Let's use this sample instead of waiting all the way till NY :)

So, that's .. um, carry the 3.. 30 times more. Only time in its history that xbox can claim that, what? :D

30 to 1? It's not that bad.

http://nexgenwars.com/

Xbox360 - 7,715,895
PS3 - 333,283

That's only about 23 to 1. ;)

I understand that people don't necessarily think that's a big deal, after all, the 360 has a one year lead in sales. Keep this in mind though, since the PS3 actually started shipping, there have been more Xbox360s sold than PS3s. That's not catching up, that's going further in the hole. When the PS2 launched in March 2000, 900,000 systems were sold in the first weekend.

What's different this time? Blue laser supply. Sony can't ship PS3s without Blue lasers, and as we've all seen in the various articles (thanks b2b), they are still very difficult to make. We've had Sony downgrade their shipment estimates numerous times on the way to launch. In the end Sony said 400,000 units at launch and at least 1 million by the end of this year. We now know they didn't have 400,000 at launch and now EA is saying they don't think Sony will ship more than 500,000 - 800,000 by the end of the year.

None of this should be a surprise, Sony can't get enough blue lasers to make more. Sony faces a number of challenges in the console war, but this one issue can push them out of the running. If you can't make enough systems to compete, you loose by default.

Sony's now trying to buy time to next March and convince everyone that they'll have big volumes by then. So does Sony really have the yield issue on Blue lasers carcked? I'm not so sure.

It's hard to push the trojan horse through the gate when there's a shortage of wheels.

[nilsp]

Was only once ;) but I'm assuming your point in saying I posted it twice was?
...that someone else posted it a few hours before you did? (Never said YOU posted it twice.)

[What'sHD]

It's hard to push the trojan horse through the gate when there's a shortage of wheels.
heh, good one :D

[mikemorel]

Global shortage of Blu-ray Disc pick-up heads expected to ease in 2007 (http://www.digitimes.com/systems/a20061130PD203.html)

As Nichia and Sony will increase production of blue laser diodes used in Blu-ray Disc (BD) drives and Sharp recently joining such production, the current global shortage of BD pick-up heads (PUHs), in which blue laser diodes is a key component, will gradually relax next year, according to sources in Taiwan's optical disc drive industry.

Nichia and Sony are currently the world's top two producers of blue laser diodes, but Nichia is suffering from a defect rate too high to meet global demand and Sony's output is going mainly for use in its PlayStation 3 (PS3) and BD burners, the sources indicated.

Sharp, in light of the large market potential, announced in November that it is producing blue laser diodes mainly for use in BD PUHs with an initial monthly capacity of 150,000 diodes, the sources pointed out. Sony, in order to attain a goal of selling six million PS3 units globally by March 2006, has to expand its production capacity of blue laser diodes as soon as possible, the sources noted.

Both Sony and Nichia declined to release details about their expansion of blue laser diode production, the sources said.

[mikemorel]

Sony Names Hirai President of PlayStation Unit (Update2) (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=awNnyuDg5_sk&refer=home)

Nov. 30 (Bloomberg) -- Sony Corp., the world's biggest video-game console maker, named Kaz Hirai president of Sony Computer Entertainment Inc. to oversee day-to-day operations after the company stumbled in unveiling its PlayStation 3 player.

Ken Kutaragi, who led the team that created the PlayStation franchise in the mid-1990s, will become chairman of Sony's games unit and remain group chief executive officer, the Tokyo-based company said in a statement today.
...

[Richard Paul]

And they were right before, as well. Remember the BD-J story right after CES in January?Do you mean the TG Daily article that Amir used to claim that the Samsung Blu-ray player would not support BD-J? Yeah, I remember that one but if I was trying to defend TG Daily I would have selected something else. Also Mike you know quite well that TG Daily is not a very credible source on this format war which has been proven more than a few times in the last year.


TWO THOUSAND supporters for the HD DVD studio petition now...More correctly two thousand email addresses have been used to sign up to the HD DVD petition.

[KLee]

Big news in PS3 land....its seems that 1080p/24, upscaled DVDs, YCrCb output and more will be supported in a future update along with tons of news in other areas:

Translated Japanese PC Watch article by ONE over at B3D:

http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/showthread.php?t=36188

* Though PSX (the DVD recorder) was too weak to decode SACD in software, it was expected that the PS3 would be able to. SCE began the development in a relatively earlier stage. But even at the beginning of this year the SACD decoder was 6 times slower than realtime to convert surround DSD sound into PCM.
* The manager of the Software Platform division at SCE who were in charge of software codecs and players estimated it'd be impossible to finish if they kept that pace. A developer from the Sony HQ who developed softwares for VAIO PC came to SCE and they assigned the development of an SACD decoder codec to him.
* SACD is stored in the DST format (= compressed DSD). DST changes compression methods and parameters every 1/75 seconds, which eats huge processing load when decoding. In the first 2 months the developer optimized it into realtime processing. Then he threw away the old source code and wrote a faster new codec in 3 weeks with the knowledge he had gained. It uses 5 SPEs - 3 SPEs for DST decompression, and 2 SPEs for DSD to PCM conversion.
* After that, he debugged it while consulting the professional audio equipments division of Sony that
developed the DSD format itself. It took 6 months.
* Then the audio tuning specialist at the audio division of Sony began to use a PS3 to check the sound of the then unreleased HD receiver TA-DA3200ES. He pointed out where to fix in the PS3's digital audio processing to SCE. It was in the early October, and the dynamic range at that time was 140dB which was the initial goal set by another Sony developer who developed DSD. The PS3 firmware version 1.10 is this version with a few updates. The decimation filter of the SACD decoder outputs at 24bit/88.2kHz.
* However, last Friday, Honda went to a place for the interview with Ken Kutaragi for some audio/videophile magazine. They brought there an even newer version with a decimation filter at 24bit/176.4kHz. Also, the 64-bit DP internal data of the decimation filter is rounded down to 30-29-bit instead of 24-bit for the output. The dynamic range is over 170dB and the theoretical number reaches 180dB in 30-bit. Honda says its sound was really good even when compared with the sound of the 1.1 version firmware. The Sony developer attributes the goodness to the fact that the software SACD codec of the PS3 processes all data in 64-bit double precision. This new firmware version will be available when the BD remote is released in December.
* As for improving CD sound, upsampling is apparently easy by writing a FIR filter. But it is not yet in the PS3 software player as it takes some time to choose an appropriate upsampling function and noise shaping algorithm.


The #2 is about the BD video player.

# Since the standards for BD-ROM such as BDMV and BD-J were delayed, particular player functions were developed later while 2 years has already passed for the development of software decoding function for codecs such as H.264.
# H.264 decoding itself was not very difficult for Cell with moderate optimization and they could play a movie in realtime at the first try unlike very difficult SACD optimization. However, because they began the development without knowing the final Blu-ray stand