BBSpot is a satire site.

Thanks for that... makes me feel safer ehehe.

I'd add:

"The MPAA defines a concert hall as any home with stereo sound and room for two people to stand. Anyone with a concert hall would need to pay a $50 registration fee with the MPAA or face fines up to $500,000 per concert played."

Cheers...
Duy-Khang Hoang

Ummm, this is the same site that had this article:

http://www.bbspot.com/News/2005/03/mpaa_piracy.html

MPAA to Thwart Pirates
By Making All Movies Suck
By G. Lloyd Girty


Los Angeles, CA - Motion Picture Association of America President and CEO Dan Glickman announced a bold new strategy to combat the "pernicious effects of piracy". After many failures to stop piracy by technological and litigious means, Hollywood will rely on psychological tactics to thwart would-be file-swappers by making only movies that suck.

So I'm not fearing the MPAA at this point.

Really? This is the Samsung Richard. Remember, the player that launched the format? Seems like they would want to appease those early adopters who suffered through some bad early releases.I am just saying that Fox might have tested out their discs with some other player than the Samsung. Also from the sounds of it Speed is working fine on the other Blu-ray players it has been tried on and even some Samsung owners have gotten it to work.


True. I'm wondering if it might be BD+ related, being a Fox title and all...Well considering the number of other Fox titles doing well with the Samsung I think it would be jumping the gun a bit to assume it is related to BD+.

It is true that a few posters did. Also just to point this out but I already see some people who supported firmware updates for the HD-A1 starting to make negative remarks about the firmware updates for the PS3. Just to be clear but this is not aimed at you, but if you look closely there are a few posters on this forum doing that.

True. I would claim there is a difference between updating a CE player that has one task, "just play the &%"¤# movie" and updating a multi-purpose machine by adding additional features etc.

The A1 was released too early, in my opinion, it should have been more mature. But I understand the reasoning behind it, timing etc., so with a few updates it seems to be doing better now. Fine. (That said, the Samsung maybe should not have been released at all... ;))

Now, the PS3 will have continuous updates and I think it is great. It now does what it is supposed to do, it plays movies and games. Adding features to it just adds to the value of the money already spent. If even half of what was said yesterday of the planned updates are true, I'm extatic! If I were to guess, there's probably even more planned down the pipeline. Bring it on! Firmware updates on my PSP have been great, and I'm glad they continue that tradition. (Just like M$ update the firmware/dashboard etc. on the Xbox360)

Ummm, this is the same site that had this article:

http://www.bbspot.com/News/2005/03/mpaa_piracy.html



So I'm not fearing the MPAA at this point.


That's good....but this is my favorite ;)

Sony Unveils New Self-Destructive DVD Player
http://www.bbspot.com/News/2003/05/self_destruct.html

PlayStation 3 sales drop sharply on low supply (http://www.infoworld.nl/idgns/bericht.phtml?id=002570DE00740E1800257237000DF3D8)

Sales of the PlayStation 3 console during its first full week of availability in Japan were sharply lower than those during the two days immediately following its launch, according to estimates published this week.

During the seven days from Nov. 13 to Nov. 19, there were 43,378 of the consoles sold in Japan compared with 88,400 sold on Nov. 11 and Nov. 12, according to figures published by Enterbrain Inc. Friday. The company publishes local gaming magazine Famitsu and its figures are generally regarded in the industry as reliable.

Another local market data supplier, Media Create Co. Ltd., estimated sales in the first full week at 42,099 units and said they dropped further to 32,622 units in the week from Nov. 20 to Nov. 27. Media Create earlier estimated launch weekend shipments were 81,693 units.
...Shipments are dropping significantly in Japan.

PlayStation 3 sales drop sharply on low supply (http://www.infoworld.nl/idgns/bericht.phtml?id=002570DE00740E1800257237000DF3D8)

Shipments are dropping significantly in Japan.

ummm, wouldn't we need to know if there were actually more than the number sold available for sale to conclude that sales are down :D

Just to point this out... the news posted a few pages back by KLee is fantastic if accurate (it is a translation afterall) however, it's funny that the usual dissection has not yet occurred.

@ scaesare (Steve), the BD drive in the PS3 is 2X as opposed to 1.5X in standalones. But 1.5 times of 1.5X speed is 2.25X speed. So for a PS3 to be able to comfortably play any and all streams at max bandwidth at 1.5X speed, the drive would need to be a bit faster, not sure how the PS3 buffers data but I think it would be safe to say that the 2X should be enough to not be a talking point since people won't be watching at 1.5X anyway.

Cheers...
Duy-Khang Hoang

Thanks for that. I didn't know it was a 2x drive in there.

We're in "phase one" of HD on shiny disc.. all technology has a limited life span. HD-DVD just made an unfortunate decision to get a head start (April 2006) by selling a 2 year old player design that forces a compliance level back to 2004. That is most evident in their clinging to 29.97 as their "encoded frame rate" for 24fps film material that is stored on the discs as flagged content.

b2b

You do know that means: 24p stored on the disc with flags to tell the decoder how often to repeat for output to a 60i device.

Nothing antique about this.

36th DVD Forum SC Results:

http://www.dvdforum.org/36scmtg-resolution.htm

HD DVD-RW plods forward. File system books get revised.

What's interesting (disturbing) is that most of the talk was about "fixing" CSS to support BOD* DVDs (e.g., via kiosks) with appropriate CP protection. Apparently the studios are really excited about BOD DVD right now--talk of this new product started some time back, but things are progressing forward very quickly. The WG showed decent results from SL DVD tests on legacy equipment; DL tests, not so good, so more work is needed there. Naturally, some legacy DVD players won't be able to play either of the new BOD DVD flavors.

* BOD = Burn-on-Demand. I just made it up. I'm a marketing genius. Unless someone else thought of it first, in which case I'll still take credit, 'cause hey, I'm American.

Even worse news...

http://www.bbspot.com/News/2006/11/home-theater-regulations.html

"Just because you buy a DVD to watch at home doesn't give you the right to invite friends over to watch it too. That's a violation of copyright and denies us the revenue that would be generated from DVD sales to your friends" said Glickman"

What next? MMC is dependent on how many people in the household??? This is utter rubbish and I can't believe this person is even saying that. I suppose they can't have family because I'd love to see how they are for buying 5 copies of Ice Age 2 for each of their kids.

Cheers...
Duy-Khang Hoang
Ah...this is tongue in cheek or I'm the Easter Bunny! :rolleyes:

36th DVD Forum SC Results:

http://www.dvdforum.org/36scmtg-resolution.htm

HD DVD-RW plods forward. File system books get revised.



...and region coding was not adopted for HD DVD yet. :D

...and region coding was not adopted for HD DVD yet. :D Nor Triple Layer 45GB discs

* BOD = Burn-on-Demand. I just made it up. I'm a marketing genius. Unless someone else thought of it first, in which case I'll still take credit, 'cause hey, I'm American.
DOD Disk-on-Demand is better, because I just thought of it :p

Shipments are dropping significantly in Japan.

And, what' your point?

Nor Triple Layer 45GB discs

How about native 24p passthru support ??

b2b

How about native 24p passthru support ??

b2b


Additional feature for the player doesn't need a vote, does it? Do you need vote for 1080p60 output for XA2?

DL tests, not so good, so more work is needed there.

Not surprising as the whole DVD-R DL format is b0rked. I guess they need to turn to Philips and ask for permission to use the non-DVD Forum DVD+R DL format instead :p

Even worse news...

http://www.bbspot.com/News/2006/11/home-theater-regulations.html

"Just because you buy a DVD to watch at home doesn't give you the right to invite friends over to watch it too. That's a violation of copyright and denies us the revenue that would be generated from DVD sales to your friends" said Glickman"

What next? MMC is dependent on how many people in the household??? This is utter rubbish and I can't believe this person is even saying that. I suppose they can't have family because I'd love to see how they are for buying 5 copies of Ice Age 2 for each of their kids.

Cheers...
Duy-Khang Hoang

Wow, just wow. They pay people at the MPAA to come up with this kind of tripe?

When I read the article I found myself checking the date thinking ,'is it April 1st already?' because I had a hard time believing what I was reading was actually serious. Biometric sensors in equipment to track the number of viewers? Seriously... ROFLMAO. May the RIAA and the MPAA both die a horrible death.

Edit- satire site! Got me, but it is telling that I wouldn't consider this out of line for the MPAA to try to pull off!

Additional feature for the player doesn't need a vote, does it? Do you need vote for 1080p60 output for XA2?

There you are... :) Wasn't this the meeting that the whole issue of 24p was going to be resolved in the HD-DVD spec. ??

Once the 60i signal comes out of the HD-DVD spec controlled portion of the player then you can do any kind of processing you want. They could add in a HQV chip and have a full blown video processor if they want to. They are using some kind of deinterlacing process/chip to get 1080p60 for sure.

b2b

And, what' your point?IMO, declining shipments in Japan probably mean declining shipments in the US, which in turn means 4 million no, 2 million no, 1 million PS3s shipped by end of year might not be doable. Which, my guess is not what blu-ray backing studios want to hear.

From VB on October 26 (http://www.videobusiness.com/blog/1730000173/post/1560005156.html)

Pioneer Electronics VP Andy Parsons, also with the Blu-ray Disc Association, speaking on a high-def DVD panel said that the delay of PS3 hasn't made a difference in the format's launch. I've spoken to several Blu-ray studio backers unhappy with the delays who I'd be willing to bet would disagree with that. Just not on the record, of course...

ummm, wouldn't we need to know if there were actually more than the number sold available for sale to conclude that sales are down :D

Dropping sales is different from dropping demand. If supply of players was ramping and sales of players was dropping that would indicate dropping demand. Dropping sales can also be due to the manufacturer running into problems making the product. Very likely in this case. Like I've said before, if you can't make the PS3 in quantity, it looses by default.

If the 360 add-on sells well and the PS3 supply problems continues into January and February, what will the studios think? Do they come back to this and say that based on what Sony had promissed for PS3 volumes BD was the right choice, but they've let us down and we need to revisit our earlier decision to back one format?

IMO, declining shipments in Japan probably mean declining shipments in the US, which in turn means 4 million no, 2 million no, 1 million PS3s shipped by end of year might not be doable. Which, my guess is not what blu-ray backing studios want to hear.

From VB on October 26 (http://www.videobusiness.com/blog/1730000173/post/1560005156.html)

I wonder what the studios think of HD-DVD (Toshiba) falling flat on it's face with none of the new (new as in "new" models - don't want to get accused of making misleading comments, but that's another story.. ;) ) standalone players being available during the critical holiday shopping period ??

They are over arguing in the BD forum about which of the six BD players is the best. An embarrassment of BD player riches for sure.. :)

Right now I would say the both camps have delivered everything they respectively have to offer at this time and the ball is back in the studios side of the court to start pumping out the HD titles (and HD before the DVD release of new titles). No one (in normal consumer space) is going to buy expensive HW to stare at blank screens and retread releases for the "next big thing".

b2b

There you are... :) Wasn't this the meeting that the whole issue of 24p was going to be resolved in the HD-DVD spec. ??

Once the 60i signal comes out of the HD-DVD spec controlled portion of the player then you can do any kind of processing you want. They could add in a HQV chip and have a full blown video processor if they want to. They are using some kind of deinterlacing process/chip to get 1080p60 for sure.

b2b

HD DVD spec doesn't mandate/require 60i out...please stop trying to spread FUD...did you forget your own "FUD for idiots" post already ;)

There you are... :) Wasn't this the meeting that the whole issue of 24p was going to be resolved in the HD-DVD spec. ??

Once the 60i signal comes out of the HD-DVD spec controlled portion of the player then you can do any kind of processing you want. They could add in a HQV chip and have a full blown video processor if they want to. They are using some kind of deinterlacing process/chip to get 1080p60 for sure.

b2bI am not sure if CE players can legitimately (i.e., in a compliant way) ignore the flags after the decode phase until they change the HD-DVD spec. However, even assuming the player ignores the flags to keep 24p native, this becomes more complex once you add PiP into the picture (pun intended). HD-DVD doesn't require frame rates to match for the main feature and PiP secondary feature. I have a feeling that current secondary streams are 30i. (can anyone confirm this?) That means it is not so straight forward to get 24p pass-through. Post-processed 24p, yes, but not pass-through. I will take back my words once I see pass-through 24p HD-DVD CE player, but until then I am (optimistic but) skeptical. They have already done that for PC, so it is not impossible.

But aren't we supposed to look at only the present? Only BD is allowed to promise the future! :D

[Kidding aside, I think it will happen, but just don't think it is easy in HD-DVD]

HD DVD spec doesn't mandate/require 60i out...please stop trying to spread FUD...did you forget your own "FUD for idiots" post already ;)

Then what does it require ??

b2b

HD DVD spec doesn't mandate/require 60i out...please stop trying to spread FUD...did you forget your own "FUD for idiots" post already ;)Ben, 60i output is not mandated, of course, but I am not sure the player can ignore the flags as per specs. That's the reason I think post-processed 24p is more likely than pass-through 24p. They can if they decide to, but not per spec. I will have to check the old posts again to refresh myself.

I am not sure if CE players can legitimately (i.e., in a compliant way) ignore the flags after the decode phase until they change the HD-DVD spec. However, even assuming the player ignores the flags to keep 24p native, this becomes more complex once you add PiP into the picture (pun intended). HD-DVD doesn't require frame rates to match for the main feature and PiP secondary feature. I have a feeling that current secondary streams are 30i. (can anyone confirm this?) That means it is not so straight forward to get 24p pass-through. Post-processed 24p, yes, but not pass-through. I will take back my words once I see pass-through 24p HD-DVD CE player, but until then I am (optimistic but) skeptical. They have already done that for PC, so it is not impossible.

But aren't we supposed to look at only the present? Only BD is allowed to promise the future! :D

[Kidding aside, I think it will happen, but just don't think it is easy in HD-DVD]

My understanding is that the flags must be ignored before the decode phase.. But you're right, until they actually produce players it's a moot issue.

b2b

My understanding is that the flags must be ignored before the decode phase.. But you're right, until they actually produce players it's a moot issue.

b2bMy definition of decode phase is seemingly slightly different (2-step vs 1-step), but we are saying the same thing (i.e., whether the final decoder output -- not player output -- of primary stream is 60i or 24p).

the decoder, at least for avc and vc-1, doesn't use the flags you speak of for decoding the video; the decoder is responsible for merely extracting these flags/metadata/"side information" and passing it to the "display process" ... those are the terms from the avc/vc-1 standards so please, b2b, let's not get into that again ;)

can a particular company come up with a piece of silicon that incorporates the decode process and the display process (e.g., broadcom) and which also uses the flags to create 60i, sure, but that is not the same as the hd dvd standard requiring such behavior.

the hd dvd standard, at least from the publicly available, outdated, versions we've seen, requires that video, when encoded for a 60hz region, must include these flags so that they can properly be displayed on sets which operate at 60i...this is a GOOD thing that the flags are required...and this is why we, or at least on my setup, get such excellent results on our 1080p sets (which don't actually accept 1080p signals but display 1080p)

the decoder, at least for avc and vc-1, doesn't use the flags you speak of for decoding the video; the decoder is responsible for merely extracting these flags/metadata/"side information" and passing it to the "display process" ... those are the terms from the avc/vc-1 standards so please, b2b, let's not get into that again ;)

can a particular company come up with a piece of silicon that incorporates the decode process and the display process (e.g., broadcom) and which also uses the flags to create 60i, sure, but that is not the same as the hd dvd standard requiring such behavior.

I agree.. Until HD-DVD players start doing something different than what they are doing now and with nothing to look at (as far as documentation) 24p output is a dead issue for HD-DVD until it is done.

b2b

I agree.. Until HD-DVD players start doing something different than what they are doing now and with nothing to look at (as far as documentation) 24p output is a dead issue for HD-DVD until it is done.

b2b

nice of you to agree to something i didn't exactly say but that is the art of spin which you have given a whole new meaing to...i say that in a nice way ;)

but anywho, what i'm interested in is your state of mind with respect to the non-availability of ANY BD Standards documentation...you have to go through a very involved process just to be entitled to BUY the documentation and then ONLY if you sign a restrictive Confidentiality agreement :confused:

the hd dvd standard, at least from the publicly available, outdated, versions we've seen, requires that video, when encoded for a 60hz region, must include these flags so that they can properly be displayed on sets which operate at 60i...this is a GOOD thing that the flags are required...and this is why we, or at least on my setup, get such excellent results on our 1080p sets (which don't actually accept 1080p signals but display 1080p)

Does your set do both quality deinterlacing and IVTC for film material ?? In reality most displays are progressive by nature (LCD.. etc.).

b2b

nice of you to agree to something i didn't exactly say but that is the art of spin which you have given a whole new meaing to...i say that in a nice way ;)

but anywho, what i'm interested in is your state of mind with respect to the non-availability of ANY BD Standards documentation...you have to go through a very involved process just to be entitled to BUY the documentation and then ONLY if you sign a restrictive Confidentiality agreement :confused:

If I'm not mistaken that is the same for both HD-DVD & BD. To get the "official" real-deal copies of the docs (or books) requires payment and signing legal paper. But both offer a wealth of white papers and other info to the general public. I have downloaded many of those BD docs without even a requirement of a simple registration process.

b2b

Does your set do both quality deinterlacing and IVTC for film material ?? In reality most displays are progressive by nature (LCD.. etc.).

b2b

i believe so, i have the qualia 006...

but if not, the set i ordered does...pioneer pro-fhd1 :D

If I'm not mistaken that is the same for both HD-DVD & BD. To get the "official" real-deal copies of the docs (or books) requires payment and signing legal paper. But both offer a wealth of white papers and other info to the general public. I have downloaded many of those BD docs without even a requirement of a simple registration process.

b2b

yes, it does seem as though hd dvd requires a cda as well...

to my knowledge the hd dvd standard books aren't/weren't confidential, but i could be wrong...i KNOW that it is true for the BD books ...

Edit: yes, it does seem as though hd dvd requires a cda as well...

NDA is specified in the DVD "License". I would post a quote, but the PDF is PW protected.. ;)

http://www.dvdfllc.co.jp/pdf/NewLicense.pdf

b2b

...{} the set i ordered {}...pioneer pro-fhd1 :DLucky you! In more sense than one!

I'm curious to see what is inside of Sony's standalone player and to get some insight into what future upgrades/enhancements may be in the cards for this player...

Anyone have a link?

I agree.. Until HD-DVD players start doing something different than what they are doing now and with nothing to look at (as far as documentation) 24p output is a dead issue for HD-DVD until it is done.

b2b

I would expect no less from the person who wrote the guide to FUD. ;)

On a serious note, I had a chance to meet and talk to Amir and Kevin last night in San Francisco along with a number of other AVS people. This is the 8th demo that Amir has put on for AVS members around the country. I took a photo of their traveling HD-DVD demo truck. Inside they have an 8' wide projection screen with a Marantz single chip 1080p dark chip DLP projector.

They will be there again tonight. If you're in the area (or they come to your area in the future), I'd certainly try to reserve a seat to get in. You can talk to Amir in person about the issue of 1080p24 playback on HD-DVD. Amir is candid in his discussion and is willing to answer a lot of questions.

I have a much better understanding now of why the HD-DVD launch titles looked so good out of the gate. These things don't just happen by accident. In the demo material they displayed I also noticed that later releases are looking even better than the earlier releases.

Because Microsoft has taken a software aproach to VC-1 encoding, they continue to improve the tools on a constant basis. VC-1 just keeps getting better.

Hmmm, they delayed Poseidon :(

http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/Warner/Disc_Announcements/Poseidon_HD_DVD_Torpedoed/371

Now I don't feel that bad about downloading Poseidong onto the 360...I wanted to see the quality and I never saw this title in the theater so i figured, what the hell!

KUDO's guys, the last 24hrs worth of posts have been outstanding (IMHO)

Back to lurking :)

I would expect no less from the person who wrote the guide to FUD. ;)


Sad to say the "guide" seems to have been deleated... ;) I guess you are on your on...

b2b

http://www.videobusiness.com/article/CA6395661.html

A couple of points to ponder:

- The studios seem to be focusing a lot more on digital downloads than HD packaged media. Check out some of the quarterly analyst call transcripts.

- Is part of MS' strategy around HD-DVD to prevent packaged HD from gaining too much of a foothold ahead of an MS-centric Media Center world?

Considering that Bi77orr3nt has made attempts to go legit, I really question the filter on its name.

Which, my guess is not what blu-ray backing studios want to hear.

Actually as a happy A1 (HD DVD) owner myself, frankly, I could care less about ANY game machine, or is this now a game forum? :eek:

Another local market data supplier, Media Create Co. Ltd., estimated sales in the first full week at 42,099 units and said they dropped further to 32,622 units in the week from Nov. 20 to Nov. 27. Media Create earlier estimated launch weekend shipments were 81,693 units.Shipments are dropping significantly in Japan. Yes, small shipment.

Another numbers...
XB360 PS3
~'06/3Q 143,625
2006/10 8,891
~ 11/05 6,580
~ 11/12 3,864 81,639
~ 11/19 4,050 42,099
~ 11/26 7,007 32,662
---------------------------
Total 174,017 156,400

Actually as a happy A1 (HD DVD) owner myself, frankly, I could care less about ANY game machine, or is this now a game forum? :eek:

Well sad to say the top two selling devices that support HD on shiny disc are... #1 Sony PS3 and #2 Xbox addon.

b2b

http://www.videobusiness.com/article/CA6395661.html

A couple of points to ponder:

- The studios seem to be focusing a lot more on digital downloads than HD packaged media. Check out some of the quarterly analyst call transcripts.


The movie studios don't want to repeat what happened to the music publishers. They're looking to lead the charge on downloads instead of letting others do it. Everyone is getting into this game though. Everyday I seem to find another article about someone with a plan to do dowloadable movies.

http://news.com.com/Blockbuster+High+def+will+slow+movie+downloads/2100-1026_3-6139041.html


- Is part of MS' strategy around HD-DVD to prevent packaged HD from gaining too much of a foothold ahead of an MS-centric Media Center world?

Considering that Bi77orr3nt has made attempts to go legit, I really question the filter on its name.

Microsoft is placing bets on downloads and HD media. I believe downloads are still the long term play. For right now, physical media is where the action is and they want to win.

Yes, small shipment.

Another numbers...
XB360 PS3
~'06/3Q 143,625
2006/10 8,891
~ 11/05 6,580
~ 11/12 3,864 81,639
~ 11/19 4,050 42,099
~ 11/26 7,007 32,662
---------------------------
Total 174,017 156,400

That's interesting....

These are the numbers I posted from nexgenwars.com less than 48 hours ago.

Xbox360 - 7,715,895
PS3 - 333,283

These are the current numbers

Xbox360 - 7,806,901
PS3 - 346,638

If I recall correctly the Xbox360 crossed the 7 Million threshold just about when the PS3 launched. There seems to be a pattern developing here. The only thing that can reverse this trend is Sony getting their hands on more blue lasers so they can increase their PS3 production.

if that's what ms is up to then so to is sonym i've always fealt that the ps3 didn't represent a trojan horse in favor of bd but instead a trojan horse into the living room pc space...that is why i believe sony and ms are aligned on the frontlines of opposing sides of the battlefield.

the ps3 is an assault on the media center pc...i see the 360 as helping ms with getting the pc into the living room too...jmo

That's interesting....

These are the numbers I posted from nexgenwars.com less than 48 hours ago.

Xbox360 - 7,715,895
PS3 - 333,283

These are the current numbers

Xbox360 - 7,806,901
PS3 - 346,638

If I recall correctly the Xbox360 crossed the 7 Million threshold just about when the PS3 launched. There seems to be a pattern developing here. The only thing that can reverse this trend is Sony getting their hands on more blue lasers so they can increase their PS3 production.From numbers posted by Rio and you what I can see is that Sony has Japan covered as far as Xbox360 is concerned (doesn't look like much demand for 360 there). They should now fully focus on USA+rest, especially USA. I would love to see similar numbers for USA or even NA combined numbers.

I think Wii is stealing the thunder from both PS3 and 360 everywhere.

What's the point of the Xbox 360 figures? Where's the number of the HD DVD addon?

The numbers I posted is for Japanese market, based on the same news source that mikemorel posted.

The numbers I posted is for Japanese market, based on the same news source that mikemorel posted.There is no doubt in anyone's mind that the XBox360 will get swamped by PS3 in Japan. It is a foregone conclusion.

My point is that the declining PS3 shipments may be an indication of depleting stockpiles of finished consoles, both in Japan and the U.S. There may be some lean times ahead for Sony before things get better.

What's interesting (disturbing) is that most of the talk was about "fixing" CSS to support BOD* DVDs (e.g., via kiosks) with appropriate CP protection. Apparently the studios are really excited about BOD DVD right now--talk of this new product started some time back, but things are progressing forward very quickly.

Wal-mart, target etc have told the studios that unless they allow BOD, they will start reducing the shelf space for DVDs. The retailers think DVDs take up too much shelf space .... thus the need for BOD.

What's the point of the Xbox 360 figures? Where's the number of the HD DVD addon?

We won't really know until Microsoft's next earnings call in late January. I came across this in another thread. There's no way to know if his numbers are real or not, but here you go.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9050926#post9050926

HD DVD spec doesn't mandate/require 60i out...True, but the specs do specify 60/50 Hz synchronization which is why flags are required with 24p video on HD DVD.


the hd dvd standard, at least from the publicly available, outdated, versions we've seen, requires that video, when encoded for a 60hz region, must include these flags so that they can properly be displayed on sets which operate at 60i...this is a GOOD thing that the flags are required...Just curious but how is it a good thing that flags are required? In fact why do you believe the flags are needed to convert 1080p24 into 1080i60?


In the demo material they displayed I also noticed that later releases are looking even better than the earlier releases.Which if taken literally would mean that either the earlier releases are not transparent or that they showed better looking material at the demo.


We won't really know until Microsoft's next earnings call in late January. I came across this in another thread. There's no way to know if his numbers are real or not, but here you go.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9050926#post9050926With posts such as these (1 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9050885&&#post9050885), 2 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9050480&&#post9050480), 3 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8844130&&#post8844130), 4 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8760191&&#post8760191), 5 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8631264&&#post8631264), 6 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8749961&&#post8749961)) I would say that the guy just likes to make guesses. To sum it up he has claimed that Resistance could fit on a single DVD, that 50,000 HD DVD add ons have been sold already, that Lionsgate and Disney will release on HD DVD next year, that Fox might announce support for HD DVD at the 2007 CES, that Toshiba has shipped 300,000 HD DVD players, and that hundreds of thousands of HD DVD add ons will be sold by Nov 14. And all of these claims are from posts he has made in the last month.

Which if taken literally would mean that either the earlier releases are not transparent or that they showed better looking material at the demo.


VC-1, Mpeg2, Mpeg4/AVC are all lossy codecs.....nothing is actually "transparent to the master" unless it's a lossless codec. Having said that, in my opinion the early release titles I saw looked very good, the more recently encoded titles looked even better. VC-1 is being refined on a continual basis and the benefits show.


With posts such as these (1 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9050885&&#post9050885), 2 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9050480&&#post9050480), 3 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8844130&&#post8844130), 4 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8760191&&#post8760191), 5 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8631264&&#post8631264), 6 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8749961&&#post8749961)) I would say that the guy just likes to make guesses. To sum it up he has claimed that Resistance could fit on a single DVD, that 50,000 HD DVD add ons have been sold already, that Lionsgate and Disney will release on HD DVD next year, that Fox might announce support for HD DVD at the 2007 CES, that Toshiba has shipped 300,000 HD DVD players, and that hundreds of thousands of HD DVD add ons will be sold by Nov 14. And all of these claims are from posts he has made in the last month.

It was a mistake on my part to link to someones "hot tip." I should have known better than to spread an unsubstantiated rumor. As I did note in my post, we won't know for sure until Microsoft does their next earnings call at the end of January.

PlayStation 3 sales drop sharply on low supply (http://www.infoworld.nl/idgns/bericht.phtml?id=002570DE00740E1800257237000DF3D8)

Shipments are dropping significantly in Japan.I don't see why we wouldn't expect less in the 2nd week than the first week with most releases. When companies announce a release date than have generally saved up production from more than a week for the initial launch, so that is what I would expect.

--Darin

I wonder what the studios think of HD-DVD (Toshiba) falling flat on it's face with none of the new (new as in "new" models - don't want to get accused of making misleading comments, but that's another story.. ;) ) standalone players being available during the critical holiday shopping period ??

They are over arguing in the BD forum about which of the six BD players is the best. An embarrassment of BD player riches for sure.. :)

Right now I would say the both camps have delivered everything they respectively have to offer at this time and the ball is back in the studios side of the court to start pumping out the HD titles (and HD before the DVD release of new titles). No one (in normal consumer space) is going to buy expensive HW to stare at blank screens and retread releases for the "next big thing".

b2b No matter how you spin it, HD DVD and the Xbox 360 movie player add on are exceeding sales expectations, the PS3 and the more expensive Blu-ray players are below sales expectations.

Thats a reality to the studios and may affect content availability after the new year.

http://www.videobusiness.com/blog/1730000173/post/1560005156.html
Pioneer Electronics VP Andy Parsons, also with the Blu-ray Disc Association, speaking on a high-def DVD panel said that the delay of PS3 hasn't made a difference in the format's launch. I've spoken to several Blu-ray studio backers unhappy with the delays who I'd be willing to bet would disagree with that. Just not on the record, of course... Wos, I mean what are the chances that the studios are privately disagreeing with the propaganda and happy stories being touted by Andy Parsons.

Maybe, just maybe, they can see through the hype, even if some people here cannot.

No matter how you spin it, HD DVD and the Xbox 360 movie player add on are exceeding sales expectations, the PS3 and the more expensive Blu-ray players are below sales expectations.


I bought one and I'm pleased with it... but what were the expectations and how many have they sold? And where did you get the numbers and reaction? Or is this conjecture? :confused:

No matter how you spin it, HD DVD and the Xbox 360 movie player add on are exceeding sales expectations, the PS3 and the more expensive Blu-ray players are below sales expectations.

Thats a reality to the studios and may affect content availability after the new year.

That might be a very valid point if there were some "sales expectations" numbers to look at. Right now the "sales" of the new Toshiba players is ZERO.. nada.. zilch. The addon... what can I say.. it might be selling well or not. MS hasn't given a clue of what a "sales expectation" might be, so exceeding an unknown number is pretty easy to do when you say what the "expectation" is after the fact... ;)

b2b

With posts such as these (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6) I would say that the guy just likes to make guesses. To sum it up he has claimed that Resistance could fit on a single DVD, that 50,000 HD DVD add ons have been sold already, that Lionsgate and Disney will release on HD DVD next year, that Fox might announce support for HD DVD at the 2007 CES, that Toshiba has shipped 300,000 HD DVD players, and that hundreds of thousands of HD DVD add ons will be sold by Nov 14. And all of these claims are from posts he has made in the last month. Well the estimate he made two months ago of 200,000 Xbox 360 HD DVD movie player add on sales by Nov 14th does seem to be overly exuberant. As well as 300,000 HD DVD players sold. But his sins seem to be in the estimate of the time that those milestones will be reached, not when. Those are at least possibilities that may happen in the future, even if his sense of timing of them is premature.

How is that different than the official BS we get out of the Blu-ray spin offices, your not as critical of those estimates?

That might be a very valid point if there were some "sales expectations" numbers to look at. Right now the "sales" of the new Toshiba players is ZERO.. nada.. zilch. The addon... what can I say.. it might be selling well or not. MS hasn't given a clue of what a "sales expectation" might be, so exceeding an unknown number is pretty easy to do when you say what the "expectation" is after the fact... ;)

b2b Well you are right in that HD DVD has not created false expectations.
That seems smarter than creating ones you dramatically fail to meet, like Blu-ray has...

Studios are obviously watching they lower than expected sales of the PS3 based on its delays and availability.

Sony set the expectation bar it has failed to cross. That is an issue that may effect studio support.

Because Toshiba and Microsoft were smart enough not to raised false hopes and expectations, and low keyed consistently under-promised and over-delivered means that they don't have the same expectations to meet.

Blu-ray is failing to deliver on its sales hype, and Sony is partially to blame because of its hype.

HD DVD has a lower bar, because it publicly did not set its bar so high.

Well you are right in that HD DVD has not created false expectations.
That seems smarter than creating ones you dramatically fail to meet, like Blu-ray has...

Studios are obviously watching they lower than expected sales of the PS3 based on its delays and availability.

Sony set the expectation bar it has failed to cross. That is an issue that may effect studio support.

Because Toshiba and Microsoft were smart enough not to raised false hopes and expectations, and low keyed consistently under-promised and over-delivered means that they don't have the same expectations to meet.

Blu-ray is failing to deliver on its sales hype, and Sony is partially to blame because of its hype.

HD DVD has a lower bar, because it publicly did not set its bar so high.

Five "in production" BD player devices (six when Pioneer releases), 50GB BD discs released and in production. That doesn't sound too shabby to me..

That is vs. four discontinued Tosh HD-DVD players (and clones) one USB addon drive (Xbox) and two Tosh players delayed due to parts/QC problems. I guess you're right. If you set the "bar" low enough, you can claim "success" at most any level of achievement.. ;)

b2b

Well the estimate he made two months ago of 200,000 Xbox 360 HD DVD movie player add on sales by Nov 14th does seem to be overly exuberant. As well as 300,000 HD DVD players sold. But his sins seem to be in the estimate of the time that those milestones will be reached, not when. Those are at least possibilities that may happen in the future, even if his sense of timing of them is premature.
Are you seriously defending this guy? I almost spit out my coffee when I read this.

Here's my SWAG at a prediction: HD DVD and Bd are going to sell 3MM units each in the next four weeks before year-end. I do hope though you'll forgive me if they fall way short of that. But at the end of the day, I'm still right in my prediction because they probably will sell that many eventually?!?!?!?! :rolleyes:

The sun is going to rise tomorrow morning at 2am. I do hope you'll forgive me if it really happens at around 6:50AM. After all, I was only off by 4 hours and 50 minutes. :D

The Chicago Cubs are going to win the World Series in 2007. I do hope you'll forgive me if it doesn't happen next year because it will happen at some point...oh wait...no it won't...sorry. Bad example. :D :D :D

Five "in production" BD player devices (six when Pioneer releases), 50GB BD discs released and in production. That doesn't sound too shabby to me..

That is vs. four discontinued Tosh HD-DVD players (and clones) one USB addon drive (Xbox) and two Tosh players delayed due to parts/QC problems. I guess you're right. If you set the "bar" low enough, you can claim "success" at most any level of achievement.. ;)

b2b Well how many Blu-ray player models in production doesn't equate to sales there bucko.

Strange how the positive atmosphere of quiet confidence and success coming out of the HD DVD leaders, Toshiba and Microsoft, camps contrast with the finger-pointing and excuses coming from the Blu-ray leader Sony's camp.

What you describe for HD DVD players is accurate enough, although it is phrased in your usual biased and inflammatory word choices.

"Discontinued" usually means obsolete or stopped in production because of market failure. That certainly isn't the case with the HD A1. In fact it's unavailability is unrelated to those common issues, its because its sold faster than projected and has a high user sastisfaction rate. Thats a different problem than if the Samsung would be taken off the market with its pitiful sales rate and early reviews. Then the 'discontinued" label and all of its perjorative attributes would be appropriate. But that's probably not going to happen in that case as with its new firmware, the Sammy is at least competitive as a Blu-ray player.

The production rate of its ergonomically improved HD DVD successors will be an issue, But its probably a good thing to await until quantities are available for launch (or you can do a PS3 model and NOT have adequate supplies to meet demand at launch) . Most HD DVD backers would rather have the G2 launch delayed for whatever issues ( at least they caught the QC issue before launch) unlike in the Samsung launch.

The issue of setting a sales "expectation bar" is that if you don't meet it you generate your own standard of failure.

I much rather take the quiet approach of HD DVD and deliver lower cost higher performing players and more titles with superior quality and let the market judge.

I guess you prefer the big talk and no performance attitude of the Blu-ray camp.

Goodie for you. :rolleyes:

Are you seriously defending this guy? I almost spit out my coffee when I read this.

Here's my SWAG at a prediction: HD DVD and Bd are going to sell 3MM units each in the next four weeks before year-end. I do hope though you'll forgive me if they fall way short of that. But at the end of the day, I'm still right in my prediction because they probably will sell that many eventually?!?!?!?! :rolleyes:

The sun is going to rise tomorrow morning at 2am. I do hope you'll forgive me if it really happens at around 6:50AM. After all, I was only off by 4 hours and 50 minutes. :D

The Chicago Cubs are going to win the World Series in 2007. I do hope you'll forgive me if it doesn't happen next year because it will happen at some point...oh wait...no it won't...sorry. Bad example. :D :D :D Not really defending him. His estimates have obviously been wildly optimistic in their timing, even if they are possible. I don't trust the accuracy of his estimates.

I was just trying to state that some of the official Sony and Blu-ray estimates have been just as wrong and haven't been criticized as much by the Blu-ray defenders. Just highlighting the double standard of slamming a poster for saying the same things the BDA guys do.

Well how many Blu-ray player models in production doesn't equate to sales there bucko.

Strange how the positive atmosphere of quiet confidence and success coming out of the HD DVD leaders, Toshiba and Microsoft, camps contrast with the finger-pointing and excuses coming from the Blu-ray leader Sony's camp.

What you describe for HD DVD players is accurate enough, although it is phrased in your usual biased and inflammatory word choices.

"Discontinued" usually means obsolete or stopped in production because of market failure. That certainly isn't the case with the HD A1. In fact it's unavailability is unrelated to those common issues, its because its sold faster than projected and has a high user sastisfaction rate. Thats a different problem than if the Samsung would be taken off the market with its pitiful sales rate and early reviews. Then the 'discontinued" label and all of its perjorative attributes would be appropriate. But that's probably not going to happen in that case as with its new firmware, the Sammy is at least competitive as a Blu-ray player.

The production rate of its ergonomically improved HD DVD successors will be an issue, But its probably a good thing to await until quantities are available for launch (or you can do a PS3 model and NOT have adequate supplies to meet demand at launch) . Most HD DVD backers would rather have the G2 launch delayed for whatever issues ( at least they caught the QC issue before launch) unlike in the Samsung launch.

The issue of setting a sales "expectation bar" is that if you don't meet it you generate your own standard of failure.

I much rather take the quiet approach of HD DVD and deliver lower cost higher performing players and more titles with superior quality and let the market judge.

I guess you prefer the big talk and no performance attitude of the Blu-ray camp.

Goodie for you. :rolleyes:

"Discontinued" - "2. To cease making or manufacturing: discontinued the sportscar in the 1960s."

Seems like a reasonable description to me.. And more to the point, the A1 was based on a two year old design that used parts (Intel processor) that were only available in "discontinued" quantities. "Obsolete" in design and parts pretty much sums up the first Toshiba players. ;)

b2b

Strange how the positive atmosphere of quiet confidence and success coming out of the HD DVD leaders, Toshiba and Microsoft, camps contrast with the finger-pointing and excuses coming from the Blu-ray leader Sony's camp.The fewer the companies involved, and the fewer the implentation variations, the smoother deploying a new technology goes. If all the BD companies were making HD-DVD, I have no doubt there would be plenty of issues, both public and private. These are very complex specs with lots of room for interpretation on how do things.

The fewer the companies involved, and the fewer the implentation variations, the smoother deploying a new technology goes. If all the BD companies were making HD-DVD, I have no doubt there would be plenty of issues, both public and private. These are very complex specs with lots of room for interpretation on how do things.

Any idea if they are coming up with "reference" media (encoding, authoring, physical disc) and a "reference" HW platform to get a handle on the "room for interpretation" ?? It really would be a shame to end up with a repeat of the same mess as DVD has become..

b2b

"Discontinued" - "2. To cease making or manufacturing: discontinued the sportscar in the 1960s."

Seems like a reasonable description to me.. And more to the point, the A1 was based on a two year old design that used parts (Intel processor) that were only available in "discontinued" quantities. "Obsolete" in design and parts pretty much sums up the first Toshiba players. ;)

b2b


every product out on the market, by the time it makes it to market, is already a dated design!!

spin on dj b2b ;)

"Discontinued" - "2. To cease making or manufacturing: discontinued the sportscar in the 1960s."

Seems like a reasonable description to me.. And more to the point, the A1 was based on a two year old design that used parts (Intel processor) that were only available in "discontinued" quantities. "Obsolete" in design and parts pretty much sums up the first Toshiba players. ;)

b2b Yeah its a shame they performed better than the cutting edge Samsung Blu-ray player design..And sold a lot more too... ;)

Any idea if they are coming up with "reference" media (encoding, authoring, physical disc) and a "reference" HW platform to get a handle on the "room for interpretation" ?? There are test discs. However, they do not cover all possibilities. For example, we used ~70+ BD test discs (many custom made) to be able to easily narrow down where any problem areas are when we or a customer find an issue.

All current and upcoming movies (soon to be released) are tested in the current and upcoming (soon to be released) players. This will go on for quite awhile. At some point a limited set of players will be used for movie testing.

For DVD, at Sigma we had to test every new DVD that came out for several years due to authoring issues. The same thing will have to be done for BD and HD-DVD.

There is no HW reference platform for the players, except for commerically available solutions. That's why some companies rush to be first to market - they become the standard others are compared against. So, for example, any HD-DVD player coming out will have to match the Toshiba in how it handles things that may affect the playback experience, even if it is in error.

But his sins seem to be in the estimate of the time that those milestones will be reached, not when. Those are at least possibilities that may happen in the future, even if his sense of timing of them is premature.
hoo mama
If ever the chips are down, I want you on my side, dude. Way to support the team

Not so much with the logic though :)

every product out on the market, by the time it makes it to market, is already a dated design!!

spin on dj b2b ;) You gotta admit Ben that b2 is pretty good at this wordplay stuff.

I sometimes wonder what would happen if he would apply his gifts in the service of good instead of evil... ;)

just kidding of course.. :)

I just gotta say, your talents are wasted here B2. I'm actually pretty impressed by your ingenuity, even if I don't agree with your logic or conclusions.

Its like talking politics with a good friend. :) Everyone learns and has fun even if you don't agree at the the end of the night.

The sun is going to rise tomorrow morning at 2am. I do hope you'll forgive me if it really happens at around 6:50AM. After all, I was only off by 4 hours and 50 minutes. :D
Here, I have one too:

BD is going to release movies that will clearly surpass the quality of any released HD movie, thanks to higher bitrate and AVC or VC1, in 9 months.

This one may actually come true, but if it doesn't, excuse my "pre-maturity" and replace '9 months' with 'lifetime of format'.

hoo mama
If ever the chips are down, I want you on my side, dude. Way to support the team

Not so much with the logic though :) Just battlefield first aid.

I tried not to shoot my own wounded when they are down on the ground in the field after they were just shooting in the same direction I was a moment ago.

Even inaccurate allies are useful in suppressing enemy fire so the more talented warriors can finish the battle. ;)

Yeah its a shame they performed better than the cutting edge Samsung Blu-ray player design..And sold a lot more too... ;)

How about this comment.. observations from the "real world" of consumers ???
I haven't bought either system and don't plan to for awhile. I've bought a couple of Blu-ray discs, but no player yet. I can't see that changing anytime soon, because the blu-ray players are too expensive and the available titles either don't interest me and/or I already have them on DVD or laserdisc (I don't replace discs with newer formats). I'm not interested in HD-DVD, because I'm not interested in what I consider to be prototype players that aren't ready for prime time (too many load time, freezing, re-boot and playback skip complaints in the HD-DVD forums).

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9054863&&#post9054863

b2b

Five "in production" BD player devices (six when Pioneer releases), 50GB BD discs released and in production. That doesn't sound too shabby to me..

That is vs. four discontinued Tosh HD-DVD players (and clones) one USB addon drive (Xbox) and two Tosh players delayed due to parts/QC problems. I guess you're right. If you set the "bar" low enough, you can claim "success" at most any level of achievement.. ;)

b2bOh yay uh huh you win...

The fact that the second generation HD DVD machines are out in a couple of weeks and that they are still twice the price performance of the bluray machines doesn't factor at all, nuh uh ;)

Put me in the quietly confident camp also - I'll leave the attacks to the other side...

How about this comment.. observations from the "real world" of consumers ???
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9054863&&#post9054863

b2b
Gee whiz - you are now using a noob, with 3 posts, who doesn't have either player as your expert witness that the Toshibas don't work?

And should we take anything from the fact that your noob witness has already bought Bluray movies without a player - yet is "openminded"? :p

Anyhoo - anyone got some real news here?

Just battlefield first aid. I tried not to shoot my own wounded when they are down on the ground in the field after they were just shooting in the same direction I was a momement ago. Even innacurate allies are useful in supressing enemy fire so the more talented warriors can finish the battle.

I think there is a term for that..."Cannon fodder"... ;)

b2b

in my engineering days, individuals that were seen as problems and that couldn't get the job done were "promoted out of the way" ...

BenDover: is that from personal experience :)

Rob, here's my experience. Personally my company has sold over 3000 HD DVD players and have taken back 5 units, 3 of which I am personally using and have no trouble whatsoever.

I have also helped a few HD DVD owners expedite their repair/replacement HD DVD playas with Toshiba, but in no way is the A1, D1 XA1 or RCA HD DVD player having any serious problem or high rate of defect. IN fact, the reliability is excellent.

I have seen hundreds of Samsung players being returned. The Panasonic BMP-BD10 has been a very nice player and to date I have only seen 1 defective unit.

I expect the HD DVD G2 players to be fast and glitch free.


Robert: how many Samsungs have you sold?

hoo mama
If ever the chips are down, I want you on my side, dude. Way to support the team

Not so much with the logic though :)

Perhaps MS-DVD started paying overtime for Saturdays.

HD DVD spec doesn't mandate/require 60i out...please stop trying to spread FUD...did you forget your own "FUD for idiots" post already

no Ben, it requires all work on the player all internal processing be done in 60i

Not a penny coming this way boys, although I would consider any offers to support the things I think are the best of breed. Just fighting for truth justice and the American way.

I like do like HD DVD now, although I consider myself a HD fanatic first and foremost. I also want Blu-ray to improve since I think Sony will not abandon it for a long time. I am open to Blu-ray when it is a cost effective solution that works as well as HD DVD does now at a competitive price.

Kinda insulting to say so directly though, I don't even say that of some of the more passionate Blu-ray supporters.

BTW saying MS-DVD is as inflammatory as Blurray and is kinda frowned upon here.

Not a penny coming this way boys, although I would consider any offers to support the things I think are the best of breed. Just fighting for truth justice and the American way.

I like do like HD DVD now, although I consider myself a HD fanatic first and foremost. I also want Blu-ray to improve since I think Sony will not abandon it for a long time. I am open to Blu-ray when it is a cost effective solution that works as well as HD DVD does now at a competitive price.

Kinda insulting to say so directly though, I don't even say that of some of the more passionate Blu-ray supporters.

BTW saying MS-DVD is as inflammatory as Blurray and is kinda frowned upon here.

So you consider associating MS with HD-DVD (in a humorous sort of way) a derogatory statement ?? ;) Actually considering how much MS technology is built into HD-DVD (VC-1, HDi, AACS (MS was the primary developer) and now the second wave of HW products being from MS, the term is pretty well founded in reality...

b2b

Nah only humorous. I see the evil knife twisting irony in it. But I also see Blur-ray is the same way, it highlights the initial fault and PQ problems in the Blu-ray initial releases.

But I think the common use of either of those terms cause people to go insane here, and the mods don;t like it, so I proposed a cease fire on their use.

I have seen the mods lock this thread and delete posts when people were talking back and forth using that term and some other misspellings for Blu-ray so I wanted to steer away from it.

So you consider associating MS with HD-DVD (in a humorous sort of way) a derogatory statement ?? I do consider implying I am paid by MSFT to post here kinda insulting as you would if I said that Sony was paying you for your own post count.

I post here because I believe in what I say and I think I am contributing to the discussion. I read your posts and others because I learn some things and am entertained by others.

I am glad you post here. I hope you keep it up. I hope others think the same for my contributions here as well.

No matter how you spin it, HD DVD and the Xbox 360 movie player add on are exceeding sales expectations, the PS3 and the more expensive Blu-ray players are below sales expectations.

Thats a reality to the studios and may affect content availability after the new year.

Kosty: exactly how many add-ons nand HD DVDs have sold.

I dunno. At least 200 in my local market from my conversations with managers in my big box retailers and game shops. And my market is around 150-200 largest nationally. Several of them have already gone through and sold their second shipments. Sales were better than they expected, as most of them admit the 360 add on was not on their radar screens.

So low end just by my measly little market x 200 markets is 200 x 200 is 40,000 plus sold to date.

Iif I had to guess, I would double that figure and say 60,000 to 80,000 have been sold to date, based on the fact that supply seems to be just ahead of demand at this point.

Surprising thing is that some of those guys are telling me that a lot of people are buying both a new HD DVD player add on and a new Xbox 360 at the same time. That was unexpected thing to a couple of guys I talked to. They never thought someone who was just buying a new Xbox would get the HD DVD drive at the same time.

I thought I saw a VB link that estimated 50,000 Xbox add ons sold, but I can't find the link.

Anyone else have it?

What % of Xbox owners will buy the HD DVD movie player add on is anyones guess.
http://nexgenwars.com/

The fewer the companies involved, and the fewer the implentation variations, the smoother deploying a new technology goes. If all the BD companies were making HD-DVD, I have no doubt there would be plenty of issues, both public and private. These are very complex specs with lots of room for interpretation on how do things.

So true. When the first upscaling DVD players came out, the Samsung one couldn't do 1080i with my Toshiba set. The HDCP handshake would fail. Samsung said the reason was a different interpretation on how to handle some situation.

They provided a firmware update, and all was fine. But it shows what can happen.

The BDA is doing interoperability testing to avoid that specific issue, aren't they?

Gary

I thought I saw a VB link that estimated 50,000 Xbox add ons sold, but I can't find the link.


Another recent link referenced (without a link) a VB article saying an industry insider said the number was 100K.

The thing is, they are easily available (right now, 25 are stacked up at my local BB). And if $200 is the magic price point, I would have hoped to see a heck of a lot sold.

If we eliminate all those who buy Xbox 360s and PS/3s, where is the mass market for HD coming from?


Well the estimate he made two months ago of 200,000 Xbox 360 HD DVD movie player add on sales by Nov 14th does seem to be overly exuberant. As well as 300,000 HD DVD players sold. But his sins seem to be in the estimate of the time that those milestones will be reached, not when. Those are at least possibilities that may happen in the future, even if his sense of timing of them is premature.


Couldn't the same thing be said for the PS/3? It will hit the numbers eventually too.

Hype is hype. How fair is it to attack one side's and forgive the other's?

Gary

What % of Xbox owners will buy the HD DVD movie player add on is anyones guess.
http://nexgenwars.com/

At this rate, it will be Apple and Sun arguing who has the better OS.

1.1 million Wii in two weeks?! That is going to absolutely murder both sides.

Gary

Thanks for the clarification. Is it possible for there to be a Blu-ray authoring suite like this or does the encryption issues make this kind of home authoring impossible for Blu-ray?

I would think so, but is red laser authoring on DVD-R a sure thing or is it prohibited? If so why haven't we seen an authoring suite released?This isn't prohibited - AACS is only required on replicated (i.e. stamped) discs, not duplicated (i.e. burned). You can absolutely author to DVD-R. Authoring suites aren't out because PC-based playback suites are barely out (only bundled with Blu-ray equipped PC's for the most part). They'll come, but it takes time for the authoring tools vendors to determine what the right features and user interfaces are for the non-professional public.

The $1,000 BD player you just bought a few months ago plays almost all BDs and that's a "gotcha."There are plenty of people with the Samsung who can play Speed fine. There are people with the Samsung who couldn't play one disc and then could play another copy. I've seen no reports of non-Samsung players having any trouble. The net? It appears there is some borderline condition between the Samsung and certain pressings of Speed resulting in incompatibility. This sort of behavior was common in the early days of DVD and certainly doesn't suggest Fox was somehow blatantly negligent in their QA.

I do consider implying I am paid by MSFT to post here kinda insulting as you would if I said that Sony was paying you for your own post count.
I do think the frequent and ardent posters should disclose (or deny) any financial incentives they or a relative may have with any of the subject parties.

Robert: how many Samsungs have you sold?Anthony, I asked something similar to him. Although, I asked how many of the returned Samsung players were defective (after he gave number for A1). I didn't get an answer. In the absence of an answer I am guessing that most of the returned Samsung players were not defective! ;)

There are plenty of people with the Samsung who can play Speed fine. There are people with the Samsung who couldn't play one disc and then could play another copy. I've seen no reports of non-Samsung players having any trouble. The net? It appears there is some borderline condition between the Samsung and certain pressings of Speed resulting in incompatibility. This sort of behavior was common in the early days of DVD and certainly doesn't suggest Fox was somehow blatantly negligent in their QA.

Thanks for the update. I saw the article last night on highdefdigest saying that a number of the Speed BDs didn't work specifically on the Samsung player and Fox is offering replacement discs to those affected.

Any ideas on why? It sound like the drive mechanism on the Samsung may be a little more touchy than the PS3.

Another recent link referenced (without a link) a VB article saying an industry insider said the number was 100K.

The thing is, they are easily available (right now, 25 are stacked up at my local BB). And if $200 is the magic price point, I would have hoped to see a heck of a lot sold.

If we eliminate all those who buy Xbox 360s and PS/3s, where is the mass market for HD coming from?

There is no mass market for HD discs. Maybe some day...or maybe never. This is all about building early momentum and credibility.


Couldn't the same thing be said for the PS/3? It will hit the numbers eventually too.

Hype is hype. How fair is it to attack one side's and forgive the other's?
Gary

Yes, I see your point. So the hype of one AVS member is equivalent to the hype Sony corporation spreads to its investors, its studio partners and its customers?

The last I heard Sony was still saying they would ship 2 Million PS3s by 12/31/06 and 6 Million PS3s by March 07? Can the BD supporters go on the record and say if they believe Sony this time?

HD DVD playback and recording via red laser on conventional DVD blanks was among items approved at last week's DVD Forum Steering Committee. The blend of red laser DVDs and advanced compression systems has been embraced for HD DVD content playback and for disc-based HD camcorders. For playback, the DVD Forum already has approved the 3X HD DVD-ROM, a hybrid Warner devised for short-form videos. It would put content on regular DVDs, read by red lasers but compressed with MPEG-4/H.264-AVC or VC1 and spinning at 3 times DVD's speed to render HD DVD data rates and resolution.

I do think the frequent and ardent posters should disclose (or deny) any financial incentives they or a relative may have with any of the subject parties.

Sure, why not.

I am not now or have I ever been in the employ of any of the companies involved with HD-DVD or BD. I have never received any form of payment or compensation for services rendered to any of the corporations involved with either standard.

I owned a small number of shares of Microsoft stock about 5 - 6 years ago that I purchased on the open market. I sold those shares about a year later at a small profit. I currently have no shares in any of the companies involved with either standard.

I have been a customer of Microsoft in the past and have used their products in a personal and professional capacity. I currently own a Toshiba TV and a Sony DVD/SACD player. I have a Toshiba HD-DVD player on pre-order and plan to buy a PS3 as soon as I no longer have to worry about being injured as a result of buying one. ;)

The robbers reportedly bum rushed the house with their eyes on the prize, tied up the victims with a “PlayStation power cord,” bolted out while laughing evilly, and then realized they needed the very cable they left behind. Similar to the crook who jacked a TV but returned for the remote, these guys apparently forgot the keys to pulling off an even marginally successful heist, but thankfully didn’t harm the poor family they intruded upon. The wonders of humanity will never cease.

http://news.naikmichel.com/2006/11/29/crooks-tie-up-victims-with-power-cord-whilst-stealing-playstation/

*********
Update. We do have one friend that works for Sony. No other friends or family that work for or profit from any of the companies involved with HD-DVD or BD.

There are plenty of people with the Samsung who can play Speed fine. There are people with the Samsung who couldn't play one disc and then could play another copy. I've seen no reports of non-Samsung players having any trouble. The net? It appears there is some borderline condition between the Samsung and certain pressings of Speed resulting in incompatibility. This sort of behavior was common in the early days of DVD and certainly doesn't suggest Fox was somehow blatantly negligent in their QA. I thought Fox handled this problem in a fantastic way by offering refunds or duplicate discs to anyone affected. Good for them and the people that brought up the problem.

Anthony, I asked something similar to him. Although, I asked how many of the returned Samsung players were defective (after he gave number for A1). I didn't get an answer. In the absence of an answer I am guessing that most of the returned Samsung players were not defective! ;) Per my conversation with him, I think its fair to say that most of his Samsung returns were not defective, its just that the buyers were dissatisfied with the performance and hence their value.

That was in contrast with the low return rate and high user satisfation with the HD A1 and HD XA2 models. Although they have ergonomic issues, most owners are well satisfied with them, at least well enough to keep them.

Just battlefield first aid.

I tried not to shoot my own wounded when they are down on the ground in the field after they were just shooting in the same direction I was a moment ago.

Even inaccurate allies are useful in suppressing enemy fire so the more talented warriors can finish the battle. ;)

You're a class act Kosty....I alwasy enjoy reading your posts as well as the many other great HD-DVD supporters. I won't name them all out of concern that I would forget someone. On the BD side, I enjoy b2b most (but there are others as well).

All of you help entertain, provoke thought and pass the time as we wait for more nuggets of news. :)

You're a class act Kosty....I alwasy enjoy reading your posts as well as the many other great HD-DVD supporters. I won't name them all out of concern that I would forget someone. On the BD side, I enjoy b2b most (but there are others as well).

All of you help entertain, provoke thought and pass the time as we wait for more nuggets of news. :)

Did you say nuggets... ;) Now Collins* is saying 35,000 Toshiba players. :eek:
How people have HD DVD players are out there now?

Kevin Collins: There are over 35,000 Toshiba HD DVD players and a second generation player coming out. From what I hear the Xbox 360 player has been flying off the shelves, particularly here in the LA area. However, we're still early.

http://www.socaltech.com/fullstory/0006501.html

b2b

*note: Kevin Collins, Director of HD DVD Evangelism at Microsoft

Did you say nuggets... ;) Now Collins* is saying 35,000 Toshiba players. :eek:


http://www.socaltech.com/fullstory/0006501.html

b2b

*note: Kevin Collins, Director of HD DVD Evangelism at Microsoft

That's interesting....Kevin actually said over 35,000. Could he be down playing the numbers in the opposite fashion from the way Sony overplays them by saying 2 Millions PS3s by the end of the year?

By the way, still waiting for your answer. Do you believe Sony this time? 2 Million PS3s by 12/31/06 and 6 Million by March 07? Enquiring minds want to know. ;)

That's interesting....Kevin actually said over 35,000. Could he be down playing the numbers in the opposite fashion from the way Sony overplays them by saying 2 Millions PS3s by the end of the year?

By the way, still waiting for your answer. Do you believe Sony this time? 2 Million PS3s by 12/31/06 and 6 Milliong by March 07? Enquiring minds want to know. ;)

I will take a queue from the reverend Kevin and say "over 35,000", ;) but in any event the PS3 will be the #1 HD movie disc device on either of those dates you mentioned... :)

b2b

I do think the frequent and ardent posters should disclose (or deny) any financial incentives they or a relative may have with any of the subject parties.

Yes, it sure would put things in better focus. ;)

I will take a queue from the reverend Kevin and say "over 35,000", ;) but in any event the PS3 will be the #1 HD movie disc device on either of those dates you mentioned... :)

b2b

So, I hate to be a stickler on this ;), but am I understanding you correctly in that you don't believe Sony on their latest revised PS3 projections? There's been thounderous silence from the rest of the BD supporters on this question, so I think you have lots of company on this one. This leads me to two questions.

1. If the above is true.....do you believe the studios are more trusting than the cynical group on this thread?

2. Do you believe the rest of the things Sony and the reverend Don Eklund are saying about the current state and future potential of BD?

So, I hate to be a stickler on this ;), but am I understanding you correctly in that you don't believe Sony on their latest revised PS3 projections? There's been thounderous silence from the rest of the BD supporters on this question, so I think you have lots of company on this one. This leads me to two questions.

1. If the above is true.....do you believe the studios are more trusting than the cynical group on this thread?

2. Do you believe the rest of the things Sony and the reverend Don Eklund are saying about the current state and future potential of BD?

Well post a link to what Sony said.. This is the last I read from a Sony person..
We’re comfortable we’ll have the 400,000 within a week. Then we want a steady flow for the rest of the year--all planes. The cavalry is coming.
http://www.forbes.com/digitalentertainment/2006/11/16/sony-ps3-playstation-tech-media-cx_rr_116sony.html

That was the day before release. If they are doing all air shipments until the end of the year there is going to a period when the supply goes slack if they cut over to ships. Post an actual Sony link and I will look at it.

b2b

Well post a link to what Sony said.. This is the last I read from a Sony person..

http://www.forbes.com/digitalentertainment/2006/11/16/sony-ps3-playstation-tech-media-cx_rr_116sony.html

That was the day before release. If they are doing all air shipments until the end of the year there is going to a period when the supply goes slack if they cut over to ships. Post an actual Sony link and I will look at it.

b2b

Sony spokesman Dave Karraker Wednesday reiterated Sony's goal of shipping 1 million PS3s to the United States, and 2 million globally, by year end.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15854413/

Sony has set a PS3 global shipment target of 6 million by next March.

http://today.reuters.com/news/articleinvesting.aspx?view=CN&storyID=2006-11-17T051832Z_01_T118602_RTRIDST_0_MARKETS-JAPAN-STOCKS-UPDATE-5.XML&rpc=66&type=qcna

I know I've seen a newer article quoting Sony on the 6 Million number for March, but it's hard to find. When I search Google I mostly find articles about how the PS3 will not be out in Christmas 2005, but will instead launch in March 2006. Then there's this gem. ;)

By INQUIRER staff: Wednesday 14 July 2004, 09:52

SONY WILL have models of the Playstation 3 in shops by March next year, the Kyodo News service reported earlier this week.

http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=17206

Is anyone else noticing Sony's love for the month of March? That's the EU launch....right?

Well post a link to what Sony said.. This is the last I read from a Sony person..

We’re comfortable we’ll have the 400,000 within a week. Then we want a steady flow for the rest of the year--all planes. The cavalry is coming.


http://www.forbes.com/digitalentertainment/2006/11/16/sony-ps3-playstation-tech-media-cx_rr_116sony.html

That was the day before release. If they are doing all air shipments until the end of the year there is going to a period when the supply goes slack if they cut over to ships. Post an actual Sony link and I will look at it.

b2b

I just realized, this is yet another broken promise from Sony. They never shipped the 400,000 within a week. Another quote from the Forbes article you linked.

And at least one group of hardcore gamers agrees--they’re the ones that camped out in the rain Thursday to get their hands on one of the 400,000 units on U.S. soil. More are on the way within a week, and Sony says a total of 1 million will make it to the U.S. by the end of 2006.

The global sales number according to nexgenwars.com

ps3 = 357,006

We're two weeks out from the launch and their haven't been 400,000 shipped globally, let alone in the U.S. and there's no cavalry in site.

Why does it matter? The studios know that only a percentage of PS3 buyers will turn into BD movie watchers. The trojan horse strategy depends on the kind of huge volume that the dominant gaming console can generate (think PS2 volumes). So while there may be more BD capable players now than HD-DVD (though we don't know the numbers for the xbox add-on), it doesn't translate 1:1 to BD watchers and more importantly BD sales.

How much longer before studios start to feel like they've been taken for a ride?

Why do you still trust Sony and put faith in them delivering on their promises?

Is anyone else noticing Sony's love for the month of March? That's the EU launch....right?

It's Sony's fiscal year end.

Microsoft's is the end of June: Hence the 5 million Xbox 360 prediction for end of June.

Warner's is calendar year end: Hence all those HD estimates for the end of year.

Gary

There is no mass market for HD discs. Maybe some day...or maybe never. This is all about building early momentum and credibility.

I agree. I hope we're wrong, but I don't see it.


Yes, I see your point. So the hype of one AVS member is equivalent to the hype Sony corporation spreads to its investors, its studio partners and its customers?

Of course not. The reference was to a claim from an MS rep of estimates. Not an AVS poster. And the player estimates probably came from the Toshiba president:

Toshiba Debuts Second-Gen HD DVD Players (http://techbuilder.org/news/194400562)


The introduction of two new HD DVD players by Toshiba Corp. represent the company's second-generation system that it hopes will boost sales above a half-million units by next spring.

Originally, Toshiba was saying 300K by the end of year, and 500K by fiscal year end (also March).


Toshiba predicts the HD DVD market will grow to nearly 4 million units by next year and over 8 million by 2008. "In 2008, 20 million PCs will have HD DVD drives," Fujii predicted, adding that PC drives will surpass HD DVD players by 2008.

Can you reconcile those numbers with your opinion stated above?

Gary

I do think the frequent and ardent posters should disclose (or deny) any financial incentives they or a relative may have with any of the subject parties.Should I mention that a certain Microsoft Vice President offered me $7500 here, but I didn't take it, since that could be said to be a "financial incentive"? ;) :)

--Darin

We're two weeks out from the launch and their haven't been 400,000 shipped globally, let alone in the U.S. and there's no cavalry in site. (...) How much longer before studios start to feel like they've been taken for a ride?

In light of all their other talking points essentially vanished by now (a variety of BD players in the market, 50 GB discs in the market, PQ/use of newer codecs obviously a studio issue, not a format issue) it's quite interesting how HD-DVD supporter's last straw has become this "Sony is not delivering as many PS3s as they promised – the studios will turn neutral soon" argument. This is understandable as HD-DVD can only get so far with the studio support they now have. The facts are that Sony is selling PS3s as fast as they can make them, that supply will get better and better and that it's a damn great BD player. I'm sure the studios will give Sony credit for delivering a quality product and have a long-term strategy looking way beyond launch day sales. I'm not a betting guy but if I was my money would be on Universal turning neutral rather than Sony or Fox.

Should I mention that a certain Microsoft Vice President offered me $7500 here, but I didn't take it, since that could be said to be a "financial incentive"? ;) :)

--Darin

You're kidding right?

I just realized, this is yet another broken promise from Sony. They never shipped the 400,000 within a week. Another quote from the Forbes article you linked.

And at least one group of hardcore gamers agrees--they’re the ones that camped out in the rain Thursday to get their hands on one of the 400,000 units on U.S. soil. More are on the way within a week, and Sony says a total of 1 million will make it to the U.S. by the end of 2006.

The global sales number according to nexgenwars.com

ps3 = 357,006

We're two weeks out from the launch and their haven't been 400,000 shipped globally, let alone in the U.S. and there's no cavalry in site.

Why does it matter? The studios know that only a percentage of PS3 buyers will turn into BD movie watchers. The trojan horse strategy depends on the kind of huge volume that the dominant gaming console can generate (think PS2 volumes). So while there may be more BD capable players now than HD-DVD (though we don't know the numbers for the xbox add-on), it doesn't translate 1:1 to BD watchers and more importantly BD sales.

How much longer before studios start to feel like they've been taken for a ride?

Why do you still trust Sony and put faith in them delivering on their promises?

Duh ??? Time for a reality check.. You need to wake up and smell the HW. So far Toshiba has delivered the A1 for $499 and Sony has delivered the PS3 for $499. If you don't see an inherent difference in quality of product and value for dollar cost between those two products, then you are just talking "party line". Why all this praise keeps getting heaped on such a barely functional example of a HD player (A1) is beyond me... :confused:

If Sony had come out with a product like the A1 they would have been laughed out business. Get real folks, the only excellent bit of HD-DVD so far has been the maturity of MSs VC-1 encoder and the results that got stuck on a disc.

b2b

Duh ??? Time for a reality check.. You need to wake up and smell the HW. So far Toshiba has delivered the A1 for $499 and Sony has delivered the PS3 for $499. If you don't see an inherent difference in quality of product and value for dollar cost between those two products, then you are just talking "party line". Why all this praise keeps getting heaped on such a barely functional example of a HD player (A1) is beyond me... :confused:

If Sony had come out with a product like the A1 they would have been laughed out business. Get real folks, the only excellent bit of HD-DVD so far has been the maturity of MSs VC-1 encoder and the results that got stuck on a disc.

b2b

I don't remember praising the A1 other than to say it was a smart strategy to come to market quicker with a player priced at the $500 level. And I get your point, you like Sony because they did do a nice job on the PS3 as a player.

PS3 vs. the A1. Yes, from a hardware design perspective the PS3 is a better player (unless you're on of the few people that's going to run into the scaler problem on the PS3). The PS3 also shipped 7 months after the A1. That aside, Software based CPU playback is great for the consumer because Sony can update the box down the road to add BD-Live and other functionality that's not here yet. 1080p24 output in a future software upgrade is a really nice touch as well (I hope they follow through on that one). The problem with the PS3 is not its design, it's the fact that it's targeted to teenage boys willing to wait in line to get one. With tight supply of components and therefore players, how long before a decent number of people interested in BD actually can get their hands on one? With the supply constraints of the PS3, the attach rates are going to be terrible.

If Sony had come out with the A1? Um....I think you'd be saying that they were so much faster to market delivering a great product at a great price, and the firmware updates have taken care of the bugs. Come on...you can tell us. ;)

In light of all their other talking points essentially vanished by now (a variety of BD players in the market, 50 GB discs in the market, PQ/use of newer codecs obviously a studio issue, not a format issue) it's quite interesting how HD-DVD supporter's last straw has become this "Sony is not delivering as many PS3s as they promised – the studios will turn neutral soon" argument. This is understandable as HD-DVD can only get so far with the studio support they now have. The facts are that Sony is selling PS3s as fast as they can make them, that supply will get better and better and that it's a damn great BD player. I'm sure the studios will give Sony credit for delivering a quality product and have a long-term strategy looking way beyond launch day sales. I'm not a betting guy but if I was my money would be on Universal turning neutral rather than Sony or Fox.

My point of view on this.......Sony has the reverse Midas touch when it come to launching formats. They continue to find ways to fail over and over again, and I believe it stems back from corporate culture problems within the organization.

If you like Sony, you believe they're delivering a good value to you as the customer, by all means, have at it.

I'm sure the movie studios will give Sony credit (or blame) for BD disc sales numbers. They could care less about the rest.

I don't remember praising the A1 other than to say it was a smart strategy to come to market quicker with a player priced at the $500 level. And I get your point, you like Sony because they did do a nice job on the PS3 as a player.

PS3 vs. the A1. Yes, from a hardware design perspective the PS3 is a better player (unless you're on of the few people that's going to run into the scaler problem on the PS3). The PS3 also shipped 7 months after the A1. That aside, Software based CPU playback is great for the consumer because Sony can update the box down the road to add BD-Live and other functionality that's not here yet. 1080p24 output in a future software upgrade is a really nice touch as well (I hope they follow through on that one). The problem with the PS3 is not its design, it's the fact that it's targeted to teenage boys willing to wait in line to get one. With tight supply of components and therefore players, how long before a decent number of people interested in BD actually can get their hands on one? With the supply constraints of the PS3, the attach rates are going to be terrible.

If Sony had come out with the A1? Um....I think you'd be saying that they were so much faster to market delivering a great product at a great price, and the firmware updates have taken care of the bugs. Come on...you can tell us. ;)

How about the actual users with 2.0 FW. ?? They can tell you... ;)
So how does King Kong behave after 2.0 ?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/poll.php?do=showresults&pollid=4096

64% "success" rate ?? :confused:

b2b

I agree. I hope we're wrong, but I don't see it.

Yeah, I hope so too.


Of course not. The reference was to a claim from an MS rep of estimates. Not an AVS poster. And the player estimates probably came from the Toshiba president:

Toshiba Debuts Second-Gen HD DVD Players (http://techbuilder.org/news/194400562)


I missunderstood you then. The original post from Richard Paul on the subject pointed out that the AVS poster did not have a reliable track record.


Originally, Toshiba was saying 300K by the end of year, and 500K by fiscal year end (also March).

Can you reconcile those numbers with your opinion stated above?

Gary

"We expect that the sales of HD DVD products by March will reach the initially planned 600,000 units," said Fujii.

It looks like Mr. Fuji has increased their sales projection from 500K to 600K by March 07, and no change (at least in this interview) to the original 300K of HD-DVD players by the end of 06. Since Toshiba is producing the 360 add-on for Microsoft, I would assume that his numbers count those units along with the stand alone players they're making.

I hadn't seen these projections before. It gives me more hope for the survival of HD media in general. Unlike the PS3 numbers, these are people laying down cash specifically for the purpose of watching HD movies.

How about the actual users with 2.0 FW. ?? They can tell you... ;)


http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/poll.php?do=showresults&pollid=4096

64% "success" rate ?? :confused:

b2b

Touche b2b. You haven't been stuffing the ballot box, have you? ;)

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9053075#post9053075

But on a serious note, it's odd that the same player with the same firmware would experience different results with the same disc. Shades of Samsung here?

From reading the posts it seems like some people resolved this by cleaning their discs better. I'm sure with BD we don't have to worry about such mundane things though. ;)

If you like Sony, you believe they're delivering a good value to you as the customer, by all means, have at it.

You don't think the PS3 is good value?

I'm sure the movie studios will give Sony credit (or blame) for BD disc sales numbers. They could care less about the rest.

Sure, but don't you think there is a rather close relation between the PS3's quality as a BD player and BD discs sold, at least in these very early days of the "format war"? It is BD's entry level player after all, at least for now.

How about the actual users with 2.0 FW. ?? They can tell you... ;) http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/poll.php?do=showresults&pollid=4096
64% "success" rate ?? :confused:

Problems experienced with King Kong Well once again you are misleading by failing to put the phrase "successful" in context. :)

If you go to the actual thread that the poll data came from you get the definitions the poll author specified.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=757950
After a few weeks of various posts of experiences by members that upgraded to version 2.0 just to see King Kong, we need data how successful this has been.

I have set this up to find out what the success rate is by the following breakdown:
64.29% (45) Successful= no glitch whatsoever
15.71% (11) Near Success= 1-2 minor glitch that was fixed by a simple press of the PAUSE button
14.29% (10) Unsuccessful= more than 2 glitches but tolerable
04.29% (03) Pitiful= Too much glitches rendering it unwatchable by the owner
01.43% (01) Other= Post your reason please
This poll are for stand-alone player owners, no offense intended.

So actually only 3 (4.29%) of the small self reported sample of 70 people said they problems were so bad they couldn't enjoy the disc.

It was also a closed poll so we don't know who voted, all sort of mischief could be there (people who don't own a player in the specified format have been found voting on open polls)

45 + 11 + 10 = 66 of the 70 people voting said they had none, 1-2 minor glitches, or more than 2 glitches but tolerable. So at least 95% still enjoyed the movie, even with this small self selected sample.



If King Kong was a real problem, we probably would have heard about it in some other reports by now.

I'm not saying that any glitches are a good thing, I'm just saying the problem may not be as widespread as you make it out to be. A lot of those guys reporting may also have used rental discs from Netflix and so expected some smudges and skipping issues.

I personally had a playback problem with my loaned copy of King Kong. It lost audio sync/audio dropped out twice. I took the disc out and saw a big greasy fingerprint on it. Cleaned it and it played no problem after that. It could be that the VC-1 compression is so effective that the first generation players are more subject to skipping when a critical data layer is smudged because there is less redundant data to refer too. BTW that was the first time I had a real playback problem that I even needed to clean a HD DVD before, my HD XA1 and firmware 2.0 works just fine thank you very much.

Since we haven't heard of any reports of this happening with the Xbox 360 HD DVD movie player option, its probably a G1 issue of buffering and error checking.

I am sure you would have told us if it was widespread with the Xbox 360 bundle. ;)

Touche b2b. You haven't been stuffing the ballot box, have you? ;)

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9053075#post9053075

But on a serious note, it's odd that the same player with the same firmware would experience different results with the same disc. Shades of Samsung here?

From reading the posts it seems like some people resolved this by cleaning their discs better. I'm sure with BD we don't have to worry about such mundane things though. ;)

No, I don't do things like that. By all appearances it's not even necessary. ;)

The honest answers of the users is enough to show the problem. If there was ballot stuffing the real users would be all over it screaming "foul".

b2b

Well once again you are misleading by failing to put the phrase "successful" in context. :)

If you go to the actual thread that the poll data came from you get the definitions the poll author specified.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=757950


So actually only 3 (4.29%) of the small self reported sample of 70 people said they problems were so bad they couldn't enjoy the disc.

It was also a closed poll so we don't know who voted, all sort of mischief could be there (people who don't own a player in the specified format have been found voting on open polls)

45 + 11 + 10 = 66 of the 70 people voting said they had none, 1-2 minor glitches, or more than 2 glitches but tolerable. So at least 95% still enjoyed the movie, even with this small self selected sample.



If King Kong was a real problem, we probably would have heard about it in some other reports by now.

I'm not saying that any glitches are a good thing, I'm just saying the problem may not be as widespread as you make it out to be. A lot of those guys reporting may also have used rental discs from Netflix and so expected some smudges and skipping issues.

I personally had a playback problem with my loaned copy of King Kong. It lost audio sync/audio dropped out twice. I took the disc out and saw a big greasy fingerprint on it. Cleaned it and it played no problem after that. It could be that the VC-1 compression is so effective that the first generation players are more subject to skipping when a critical data layer is smudged because there is less redundant data to refer too.

Since we haven't heard of any reports of this happening with the Xbox 360 HD DVD movie player option, its probably a G1 issue of buffering and error checking.

I am sure you would have told us if it was widespread with the Xbox 360 bundle. ;)

Maybe your definitions are different than mine, but glitching during playback comes under "not acceptable" in mine. :rolleyes:
64.29% Successful= no glitch whatsoever

This is not a "one disc" or rare occurrence either. The HD-DVD forum is full of reports like this, all the time :eek:

You can rationalize, stick you head in the sand or just plain ignore it (which most folks seem to do), but facts are facts. ;)

The addon has it's own problems with audio sync (with threads on that too..)

b2b

Maybe your definitions are different than mine, but glitching during playback comes under "not acceptable" in mine. :rolleyes:


This is not a "one disc" or rare occurrence either. The HD-DVD forum is full of reports like this, all the time :eek:

You can rationalize, stick you head in the sand or just plain ignore it (which most folks seem to do), but facts are facts. ;)

The addon has it's own problems with audio sync (with threads on that too..)

b2bFair enough. But 24 people stating a minor problem on a poll here does not a catastrophe make. I would be more concerned if the disc wouldn't play after I wiped off the greasy fingerprint, or if I saw a VB report on widespread problems with it a with a consumer recall demand, and a new disc I bought wouldn't play on my $999 HD player.

Oh, pardon me, sorry about that, so far that's only happened with Blu-ray discs. ;)

My point of view on this.......Sony has the reverse Midas touch when it come to launching formats. They continue to find ways to fail over and over again, and I believe it stems back from corporate culture problems within the organization.

If you like Sony, you believe they're delivering a good value to you as the customer, by all means, have at it.

I'm sure the movie studios will give Sony credit (or blame) for BD disc sales numbers. They could care less about the rest.

As my few posts may have indicated (e.g. MS-DVD) I have decided to support blu-ray. However, on the subject of Sony I agree with you. For those readers old enough to remember, Sony reminds me of GM in the early 1980s. GM had been on top so long they lost the ability to adapt to market changes and kept putting out inferior products (vs. Japanese and Germans) for years. I have also had more years of experience trying to change corporate cultures than I sometimes care to remember. It's very difficult if bankruptcy is not an immediate threat. I don't follow Sony closely but they seem to have a long way to go. Someone elses comments about a "stovepipe" organization struture seems approapriate.

Should I mention that a certain Microsoft Vice President offered me $7500 here, but I didn't take it, since that could be said to be a "financial incentive"? ;) :)

--Darin
I remember that. You certainly are putting a new spin on it though.

"Please don't be gullible and please do remember the saying, "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.""

You're kidding right?Nope.
I remember that. You certainly are putting a new spin on it though.What spin do you think I am putting on it? Amir tried to get somebody to bet with him and I asked him to take my bet about something he had misled people about. He then said that he would take the bet and concede right then and that I should contact him to get the money (or a Ruby projector). He tried to make it as clear as he could that he was not kidding and that he would follow through if I would agree. While I was using a joking tone above (I'm sure you saw the (;) :)), it sure looked like it was a "financial incentive" to me.

--Darin

I hadn't seen these projections before. It gives me more hope for the survival of HD media in general. Unlike the PS3 numbers, these are people laying down cash specifically for the purpose of watching HD movies.

The sales actually have to occur. You see how stating hyped numbers gives you comfort? That's why they do it.

The projections: 12 million players and 20 million PC drives by the end of 2008.

At the same point, DVD had 4.3 million players shipped. So, the projection is 3x DVD. With only 40% of US homes having HD displays, and real format war underway, and Europe just starting to adopt HD.

Gary

Here's the spin Darin, and it's so bad that it's nauseating...

You throw out a post implying someone at MS attempted to pay you off. Now, here is the real exchange and people can decide for themselves:

Rob, you are as eloquent as ever with your language .

I think you are confused about what I have said on this topic. I have never said BD-50 will not exist. Indeed, I have said the opposite. That BD-50 discs will come out. However, they will be in very limited volume and titles, produced out of a lab with yields that are very low.

Another thing I have said is that only minority of BD titles will be in BD-50. It will be a long time, if ever, before majority of titles will be in BD-50 due to factors above. As such, for the bulk of titles out there, HD DVD-30 will have a capacity advantage over BD.

If you want to bet against me, saying that there will be more BD-50 titles than HD DVD-30, I am game!
After several harassing posts by you and Rob, including this gem:
So, will you go on record and say that there is no chance that the PS3 will come packaged with a BD50?
You bet Amir $7500 on a completely different topic, with wording that couldn't fail you. I mean absolutely NO interest in ANY lossless secondary audio track? If you yourself raised your hand you'd win! "I want it! I want it!"
As long as you are offering to bet, why not take one of mine? My offer for you to back up your statement that there is no interest out there in doing any secondary tracks with lossless audio where we each put up $7500 is still out there, if you want to take it. And so is my offer to bet about the transparency of the initial HD DVD titles that you convinced many people of over a period of months. If $7500 isn't worth your time, please tell me how much it would take, but don't give a number unless you are willing to have me accept the challenge. Or are those bets not as good for you as the one you offered Rob, despite your stating those things as facts? If you were telling the truth, you could make some easy money. Right?

To which a frustrated Amir replies:
I take your bet Darin. What is more, I accept defeat already. Please let me know where to send the $7,500. I am serious. It is will be worth it to not have you engage in this kind of crusade against me. It will be well worth it as a matter of fact. I am happy to give you my Ruby if that is acceptable as I believe that is where the $7,500 number came from. I have been thinking about replacing it with a 1080p DLP projector anyway.

I repeat, I am not joking. If $7,500 does it, and any satisfaction comes from it, let's do it now and not drag the forum through all of this again. Please PM me with your address if you want the Ruby. Or if it is the money, how you like me to send it to you….

So... good thing you didn't take the money, huh? Now your crusade continues! But at least you stopped sending me unsolicited PM's attacking "certain people".

Anyway, it certainly sounds like a pay off to me. :rolleyes:

Nope.
What spin do you think I am putting on it? Amir tried to get somebody to bet with him and I asked him to take my bet about something he had misled people about. He then said that he would take the bet and concede right then and that I should contact him to get the money (or a Ruby projector). He tried to make it as clear as he could that he was not kidding and that he would follow through if I would agree. While I was using a joking tone above (I'm sure you saw the (;) :)), it sure looked like it was a "financial incentive" to me.

--Darin

I agree with chad_cincy. When I read your post I thought you were saying that Amir offered you cash to post favorable things to help his company, not that you two were talking about making a bet.

You don't think the PS3 is good value?

I plan to buy a PS3, it's the only good value I see as far BD players are concerned. I plan to use it for rented BD media. I don't think it's a very good value as a game console though, unless you also have an interest in BD movies.


Sure, but don't you think there is a rather close relation between the PS3's quality as a BD player and BD discs sold, at least in these very early days of the "format war"? It is BD's entry level player after all, at least for now.

It's table stakes that you're going to deliver a player with good PQ to launch the new format that you've talked studios into supporting. I'm sure the delays are not something BD studios are happy about. I also believe it's likely that the delays had everything to do with blue lase supply and nothing to do with getting BD playback finished.

You bet Amir $7500 on a completely different topic,Of course it was a different subject. I thought I made that clear in my sentence, but maybe it wasn't. Not sure why you think it needed to be on the same subject that he had offered to bet somebody else on.
...with wording that couldn't fail you. I mean absolutely NO interest in ANY lossless secondary audio track?Nope. That isn't true. The original proposed bet was whether there was enough interest to actually do it. As I made clear, if nobody actually did it within a year, then I would pay off. You can change it to something else if you want to like somebody else did, but it isn't reality.
I agree with chad_cincy. When I read your post I thought you were saying that Amir offered you cash to post favorable things to help his company, not that you two were talking about making a bet.
A "bet" where a person accepts and concedes in the same breath isn't a bet. Obviously he didn't expect a chance at getting $7500 from me like a real bet would be. What do you think Amir expected to get for the $7500? Money doesn't have to be to post favorable things. It can be to stop pointing out some things that are unfavorable.

--Darin

The sales actually have to occur. You see how stating hyped numbers gives you comfort? That's why they do it.

The projections: 12 million players and 20 million PC drives by the end of 2008.

At the same point, DVD had 4.3 million players shipped. So, the projection is 3x DVD. With only 40% of US homes having HD displays, and real format war underway, and Europe just starting to adopt HD.

Gary

Oh boy, then I should be completely in love with Sony then. ;)

You're other numbers are interesting. The DVD numbers seem very low to me, do you have a source?

As for sales projections, I do take those with a grain of salt from all manufacturers. What I have a much bigger problem with is manufacturing numbers that are never right and constantly changing.

At the end of the day, sales projections are like weather forecasting, there's always a risk, and the farther out you go, the more likely that they're not accurate.

Manufacturing projections on the other hand....when those numbers are always over inflated, either someone can't do their job.....or someone is "just doing their job." ;)

We'll see if Mr. Fujii's 300K projection by year end is correct. We should know in the next couple of months.

Oh boy, then I should be completely in love with Sony then. ;)

You're other numbers are interesting. The DVD numbers seem very low to me, do you have a source?

As for sales projections, I do take those with a grain of salt from all manufacturers. What I have a much bigger problem with is manufacturing numbers that are never right and constantly changing.

At the end of the day, sales projections are like weather forecasting, there's always a risk, and the farther out you go, the more likely that they're not accurate.

Manufacturing projections on the other hand....when those numbers are always over inflated, either someone can't do their job.....or someone is "just doing their job." ;)

We'll see if Mr. Fujii's 300K projection by year end is correct. We should know in the next couple of months.

That's easy... The CEA...

http://www.thedigitalbits.com/articles/cemadvdsales.html

b2b

Well in his own words, he expected you to stop your personal crusade against him. But why rehash that now? I wasn't a part of then; don't care to be a part of it now. My only point has been made and I think fair minded people can readily see it.

Well in his own words, he expected you to stop your personal crusade against him. But why rehash that now? I wasn't a part of then; don't care to be a part of it now. My only point has been made and I think fair minded people can readily see it.

When is trying to get to the Truth a personal crusade?

It can be to stop pointing out some things that are unfavorable.

--Darin
Are you are saying Amir offered you "hush money"?

That's easy... The CEA...

http://www.thedigitalbits.com/articles/cemadvdsales.html

b2b

Thanks b2b, you always have all the data right at your fingertips. Well, except for those recent Sony numbers I dug up, but maybe that's my small contribution to the discussion. ;)

In any case, I understand dialog's post now. Mr. Fujii of Toshiba is predicting an HD-DVD installed base of 12 Million by the same point in time that DVD had achieved an installed base of 4.3 Million.

One important thing to consider is the historical price of players, as I believe this was a major factor in DVD adoption rates. Unfortunately all of the historical numbers I've found are out of Australia for some reason. If anyone knows the US numbers, please let me know. In any case, I'm going to assume that converting the Australian prices gives us a rough approximation of what US prices were like.

http://www.afc.gov.au/gtp/wvaudvd.html

Price of the average DVD player in 1999 - $793 (converted with current exchange rate)
Price of the average DVD player in 2000 - $529(converted with current exchange rate)

Since prices are much more aggressive this time, with prices likely to drop even more by 2008, perhaps that is why he is projecting those volumes for 2008. But again that's so far off that it makes about as much sense as trying to predict which format will win. ;)

Oh boy, then I should be completely in love with Sony then. ;)

You're other numbers are interesting. The DVD numbers seem very low to me, do you have a source?


They are low, because I don't offhand know the DVD sales outside the US. But, since Europe has just started getting HD, I doubt whether they could generate significant sales (of either format), especially considering the prices of the players there. And Japan is so far going solidly Blu-ray, and Xbox 360 + add-on isn't a factor there. And also, that HD set penetration in the US will only be about 50% by the end of 2008. So, I was pointing at the US numbers DVD numbers as representing a good basis for comparing HD DVD worldwide sales.

That is obviously just a hand waving sort of thing.

DVD sales worldwide were probably about double the US numbers.

Gary

Since prices are much more aggressive this time, with prices likely to drop even more by 2008, perhaps that is why he is projecting those volumes for 2008. But again that's so far off that it makes about as much sense as trying to predict which format will win. ;)

That is a good point. And many believe a big kick start will occur when players hit some magic number.

It still seems that too few people are all that excited. The displays in stores are terrible. The war is vicious. People love DVD on their sets. And the penetration of HD sets cuts the market in the US and Japan, and will be small in Europe.

Gary

Thanks b2b, you always have all the data right at your fingertips. Well, except for those recent Sony numbers I dug up, but maybe that's my small contribution to the discussion. ;)

In any case, I understand dialog's post now. Mr. Fujii of Toshiba is predicting an HD-DVD installed base of 12 Million by the same point in time that DVD had achieved an installed base of 4.3 Million.

One important thing to consider is the historical price of players, as I believe this was a major factor in DVD adoption rates. Unfortunately all of the historical numbers I've found are out of Australia for some reason. If anyone knows the US numbers, please let me know. In any case, I'm going to assume that converting the Australian prices gives us a rough approximation of what US prices were like.

http://www.afc.gov.au/gtp/wvaudvd.html

Price of the average DVD player in 1999 - $793 (converted with current exchange rate)
Price of the average DVD player in 2000 - $529(converted with current exchange rate)

Since prices are much more aggressive this time, with prices likely to drop even more by 2008, perhaps that is why he is projecting those volumes for 2008. But again that's so far off that it makes about as much sense as trying to predict which format will win. ;)

More interesting reading..

http://www.thedigitalbits.com/officialfaq.html#1.9

"'Without data, you're just another opinion..."

b2b

More interesting reading..

http://www.thedigitalbits.com/officialfaq.html#1.9

"'Without data, you're just another opinion..."

b2b

Thanks b2b. Another great link. No average price numbers per year for DVD players, but based on some of the numbers he throws around I believe my price estimates are in the right ball park.

I agree with chad_cincy. When I read your post I thought you were saying that Amir offered you cash to post favorable things to help his company, not that you two were talking about making a bet.


2Channel : don't forget you are getting a highly edited and narated version of the facts.

like (the only relevant snippet from Chad’s post)

I take your bet Darin. What is more, I accept defeat already. Please let me know where to send the $7,500. I am serious. It is will be worth it to not have you engage in this kind of crusade against me.

to acknowledge defeat before the bet with the added comment where accepting the $ means that Darin won’t continue to point out the FUD and BS is more of a payout then a friendly bet

Thanks b2b, you always have all the data right at your fingertips. Well, except for those recent Sony numbers I dug up, but maybe that's my small contribution to the discussion.

In any case, I understand dialog's post now. Mr. Fujii of Toshiba is predicting an HD-DVD installed base of 12 Million by the same point in time that DVD had achieved an installed base of 4.3 Million.

One important thing to consider is the historical price of players, as I believe this was a major factor in DVD adoption rates. Unfortunately all of the historical numbers I've found are out of Australia for some reason. If anyone knows the US numbers, please let me know. In any case, I'm going to assume that converting the Australian prices gives us a rough approximation of what US prices were like.

http://www.afc.gov.au/gtp/wvaudvd.html

Price of the average DVD player in 1999 - $793 (converted with current exchange rate)
Price of the average DVD player in 2000 - $529(converted with current exchange rate)

Since prices are much more aggressive this time, with prices likely to drop even more by 2008, perhaps that is why he is projecting those volumes for 2008. But again that's so far off that it makes about as much sense as trying to predict which format will win.

2Channel


my favourite is http://www.thedigitalbits.com/articles/cemadvdsales.html

this has the complete brakedown for all the months for all the years of DVD in the US

It is not just a matter of 12M is a lot more then 4M but more importantly but worst yet

by Dec1 there were 273k stand alone DVD players that shipped in the US while <70k HD DVD players have shipped world wide. Even if one adds the add-on and assumes incredible numbers for it, it is no where near as well as DVD did in the US in its first year.

oops, going back I notice it is the same link as the originbal B2B

PS forgot the main point in the previous post.

2CH you think with the aggressive price it might be possible. What was the reason that sales were way lower in the previous months?

When is trying to get to the Truth a personal crusade?

When it's really just incessant personal attacks and repetative berating of the same tired issue to continue those attacks, all very thinly (and very unsuccesfully) veiled as "getting to the Truth"...that's when.

It would be pretty dishonest for anyone to say darin was just "looking for the truth" when he stepped over the line repeatedly in his non-stop attacks on Amir.

Hopefully, that's all done.

2Channel : don't forget you are getting a highly edited and narated version of the facts.
So now you are going to attack me, saying I've "highly edited" those quotes?

I've got nothing to hide. Here are the original exchanges:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=716685&page=11&pp=20

Hopefully people can see who's being honest and and who the real spin-meisters are.

So now you are going to attack me

who is attacking?

you decide to start many posts earlier where there is a talk of a bet, summerize the middle with "several harassing posts"

then you added
a frustrated Amir replies

poor Amir :rolleyes:

and ended with

So... good thing you didn't take the money, huh? Now your crusade continues!

that is an unbiased look at what happened :rolleyes:

So you have nothing? You implied that I had done liberal amounts of editing that may sway one's opinion had I not done so and when I call you on it... nothing. You just harass and attack for fun apparently.

Nice.

Chad and Anthony, may I request that you guys take it to PM?

thanks :)

My apologies to anyone that has become annoyed. I'm letting it go.

Merry Christmas and Happy Happy Holidays to all (Including Anthony and Darin)!

I've always wondered....how would history have turned out differently if the Trojans had just left that horse outside of their gate? ;)

If Nintendo’s claims are to be believed, 400,000 Wii consoles were available for launch, and all of which have found lovely Japanese homes. This places the Japanese Wii population at four times greater than that of the PlayStation 3.

http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=5183

Still bracing myself for the flood of BD sales that are going to roll in any second now.......any second now......hang on that's Don Eklund calling I hope the cavalry is on its way.

http://www.thedvdwars.com/index.cfm

I've always wondered....how would history have turned out differently if the Trojans had just left that horse outside of their gate? ;)

If Nintendo’s claims are to be believed, 400,000 Wii consoles were available for launch, and all of which have found lovely Japanese homes. This places the Japanese Wii population at four times greater than that of the PlayStation 3.

http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=5183

Still bracing myself for the flood of BD sales that are going to roll in any second now.......any second now......hang on that's Don Eklund calling I hope the cavalry is on its way.

http://www.thedvdwars.com/index.cfm

Yup, just imagine how HD-DVD sales will skyrocket when they all buy the addon.... Oops.. wrong game box.. ;)

b2b

Those who want to know some hints how much the HD DVD-ROM drive will be in the market, this is a one of the clues (a picture from a major PC magazine in Japan for this month).

http://mobiledatabank.jp/s/src/MDBS1047.jpg

Caption says "USB external HD DVD-ROM drive shown in the Toshiba booth. Planned release time frame is within this year to early next year. Expected street price will be around 70,000 Yen."

Note: You can buy USB external BD writable drive which supports BD-R/RE DL, DVD+-R/RW, DVD-RAM, CD-R/RW writing around 100,000 Yen.

Those who want to know some hints how much the HD DVD-ROM drive will be in the market, this is a one of the clues (a picture from a major PC magazine in Japan for this month).


Caption says "USB external HD DVD-ROM drive shown in the Toshiba booth. Planned release time frame is within this year to early next year. Expected street price will be around 70,000 Yen."

Note: You can buy USB external BD writable drive which supports BD-R/RE DL, DVD+-R/RW, DVD-RAM, CD-R/RW writing around 100,000 Yen.

70,000 JPY = $605.69 USD... Gulp !

Better buy the addon for PC HD-DVD ;)

b2b

My add-on is looking better and better value. Huzzah

(farcical) How stupid do they think we are? A 600 buck ROM when we could have cheap toshiba players for less than 400 or a PC add-on for 200? Why, they have priced themselves right out of the market. Who's going to buy this over-priced toy? (end farce)

This just shows that the add-on is probably subsidized.

VC-1, Mpeg2, Mpeg4/AVC are all lossy codecs.....nothing is actually "transparent to the master" unless it's a lossless codec.I think you should ask Amir about that since he has said in the past that the initial HD DVD movies were transparent to their sources.


Well the estimate he made two months ago of 200,000 Xbox 360 HD DVD movie player add on sales by Nov 14th does seem to be overly exuberant. As well as 300,000 HD DVD players sold. But his sins seem to be in the estimate of the time that those milestones will be reached, not when. Those are at least possibilities that may happen in the future, even if his sense of timing of them is premature.Kosty, for someone that is always claiming that others are being fooled by the hype you certainly do defend those that have hyped the format you prefer. And let us be honest here that clearly is what that poster is trying to do with his posts.


How is that different than the official BS we get out of the Blu-ray spin offices, your not as critical of those estimates?If you are referring to the PS3 estimates that Sony made I have said before in this very thread that Sony made a mistake by exaggerating the number of PS3s they would have at launch. Also what does that have to do with whether or not that poster is a credible source of information?

BenDover: is that from personal experience :)

no, i was less compassionate and would simply show them the door and warn them that it closes quite quickly and forcefully ;)

but i certainly 'experienced' it in the sense that i watched others get promoted that way ...

maybe if you are one day in a position to have people work for you you can make use of my 'tips' ;)

no Ben, it requires all work on the player all internal processing be done in 60i

this is wrong...but of course you can always post a link to the hd dvd standard that requires what you say it requires to prove me wrong ;)

Yup, just imagine how HD-DVD sales will skyrocket when they all buy the addon.... Oops.. wrong game box.. ;)

b2b Wii isn't as much of an issue for HD DVD as is for Blu-ray.

The PS3 has been stated as the delivery device for Blu-ray into the home and is going to be the lowest cost Blu-ray alternative for some time.

The Xbox 360 already has a robust sales base and more availability than the PS3.

Blu-ray is dependent on the PS3 success. HD DVD is not dependent on the Xbox 360 fortunes, although it is helped by the Xbox 360 and its HD DVD movie player bundle success.

I think you should ask Amir about that since he has said in the past that the initial HD DVD movies were transparent to their sources.


Kosty, for someone that is always claiming that others are being fooled by the hype you certainly do defend those that have hyped the format you prefer. And let us be honest here that clearly is what that poster is trying to do with his posts.


If you are referring to the PS3 estimates that Sony made I have said before in this very thread that Sony made a mistake by exaggerating the number of PS3s they would have at launch. Also what does that have to do with whether or not that poster is a credible source of information? Not defending him as much as pointing out the double standard. Those estimates are obviously not credible.

I've already stated several times that his excessive optimism is hard to defend.

However, I just pointed out that official Blu-ray and Sony spokesman have been just as guilty, and they should know better. Besides the fact that their repeated assertions have them losing credibility as well.

Wii isn't as much of an issue for HD DVD as is for Blu-ray.

The PS3 has been stated as the delivery device for Blu-ray into the home and is going to be the lowest cost Blu-ray alternative for some time.

The Xbox 360 already has a robust sales base and more availability than the PS3.

Blu-ray is dependent on the PS3 success. HD DVD is not dependent on the Xbox 360 fortunes, although it is helped by the Xbox 360 and its HD DVD movie player bundle success.

Well if you hadn't noticed, with PS3 #1 and the addon #2 as the top two HD player devices, I would say that both devices are playing a huge role in their respective formats. In fact if the addon wasn't here, HD-DVD would be "out of business" in the player department.

b2b

How about the actual users with 2.0 FW. ?? They can tell you... ;)


http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/poll.php?do=showresults&pollid=4096

64% "success" rate ?? :confused:

b2b

you always manage to link to polls that are non-public...polls such as those, in this climate and on this forum, are USELESS as there is no accountability, PERIOD ;)

Duh ??? Time for a reality check.. You need to wake up and smell the HW. So far Toshiba has delivered the A1 for $499 and Sony has delivered the PS3 for $499. If you don't see an inherent difference in quality of product and value for dollar cost between those two products, then you are just talking "party line". Why all this praise keeps getting heaped on such a barely functional example of a HD player (A1) is beyond me... :confused:

If Sony had come out with a product like the A1 they would have been laughed out business. Get real folks, the only excellent bit of HD-DVD so far has been the maturity of MSs VC-1 encoder and the results that got stuck on a disc.

b2b
Gee, I'm enjoying the hell out of my fully functioning A1. Sorry I'm so deluded as to think I'm enjoying top-notch HD entertainment in my home theater for a reasonable price. :rolleyes:

Gee, I'm enjoying the hell out of my fully functioning A1. Sorry I'm so deluded as to think I'm enjoying top-notch HD entertainment in my home theater for a reasonable price. :rolleyes:

well, b2b can't afford the price of a bd standalone and he can't manage to get his hands on a ps3...so, i do feel for him ;)

you always manage to link to polls that are non-public...polls such as those, in this climate and on this forum, are USELESS as there is no accountability, PERIOD ;)

Ah yes.. the evil A1 "skipping & glitching" problem all fabricated by BD supporters... :rolleyes:

That problem is real and has affected the A1 since day one. It has been patched and re-patched with a steady stream of FW updates and it has yet to go away, with significant numbers still being reported.

For some reason Toshiba gets a pass on this (is it a "what do you expect for $499" attitude ??), but if it had been a Sony player, there would be screaming to all holy hell and back.... ;)

b2b

Ah yes.. the evil A1 "skipping & glitching" problem all fabricated by BD supporters... :rolleyes:

...

b2b

never stated there wasn't any skipping/glitching, merely that you can't support your claims of how widespread/significant the issue is based on a closed poll ;)

For some reason Toshiba gets a pass on this (is it a "what do you expect for $499" attitude ??), but if it had been a Sony player, there would be screaming to all holy hell and back.... ;)

b2b

I have had Freeze/sync issues with both my HD-A1 and also on the Panasonic BR player. So the problem does surface on both formats...

I have had Freeze/sync issues with both my HD-A1 and also on the Panasonic BR player. So the problem does surface on both formats...

thank you, and i've tried to point this out to b2b just recently but he conveniently only skewers the hd dvd side :confused:

I have had Freeze/sync issues with both my HD-A1 and also on the Panasonic BR player. So the problem does surface on both formats...

That's interesting to know. Is there a thread over in the BD player forum discussing the problem ??

b2b

never stated there wasn't any skipping/glitching, merely that you can't support your claims of how widespread/significant the issue is based on a closed poll ;)

Well is the poll vastly out of line with all of the other polls and numerous other threads reporting the problem ?? Even if it was 20% out of line that would still give a problem rate of around 15%.

b2b

That's interesting to know. Is there a thread over in the BD player forum discussing the problem ??

b2b

Not that I know of but if ya find one let me know ;)

I've had it hiccup/freeze real quick quite a few times so far on several titles. During Speed the other night (on the Panny not the Samsung) I did have the sync go completley out, hitting pause and play solved it the same as on HD-A1

Not that I know of but if ya find one let me know ;)

I've had it hiccup/freeze real quick quite a few times so far on several titles. During Speed the other night (on the Panny not the Samsung) I did have the sync go completley out, hitting pause and play solved it the same as on HD-A1

Sounds like you need to start one. If the problem is widespread, others owning the Pany should compare notes and report the problem for a fix. If it isn't a systemic problem you might want to consider an exchange or repair.

b2b

From 1 Dec:
http://www.akihabaranews.com/en/en/news-12902-Not+too+many+PS3+stocking+problems+any+more+in+Japan%21.html
At least this morning, you could buy a PS3 without waiting in line!!

Seems like Sony has enough PS3's to meet demand now in Japan. Manufacturing caught up or initial demand drop off?

Bob

no Ben, it requires all work on the player all internal processing be done in 60i

Would you please post a document that specifies this?

There's a difference between mandating the flags that allow 60i output must be present and mandating that the output must be 60i.

Thanks.

From 1 Dec:
http://www.akihabaranews.com/en/en/news-12902-Not+too+many+PS3+stocking+problems+any+more+in+Japan%21.html


Seems like Sony has enough PS3's to meet demand now in Japan. Manufacturing caught up or initial demand drop off?

Bob

that would be a bit shocking ... isn't japan where they should be capable of selling out millions "instantly" ??

It would be disturbing, if true. But finding one and seeing stockpiles of it are two different things. We'll know soon enough, I guess.

Of course, if everybody assumes there are none in stock, who bothers to stop by the store.. ;)

From 1 Dec:
http://www.akihabaranews.com/en/en/news-12902-Not+too+many+PS3+stocking+problems+any+more+in+Japan%21.html


Seems like Sony has enough PS3's to meet demand now in Japan. Manufacturing caught up or initial demand drop off?

BobOr just a case of a lucky shopper in the right shop at right time. The article did mention 'at least this morning'. May be the store received a fresh supply. I do hope it is the supplies that increased.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/12/01/60minutes/main2222059.shtml

Since so many of us HD guys are renting from Netflix I thought this video might be of interest. Link has a 4 page story and the video which was broadcast nationally last night on 60 Minutes.

It shows how they inspect the disk (they look at it) and place it another envelope to ship out without every placing the discs back on the shelves for popular titles.

Showed the interior of one of the warehouses as well as the workforce. I thought I even saw a HD DVD liner being stuffed into an envelope.

Sounds like a fluke to me. PS3forums.com have many threads of people being in the right place at the right time for the restockings of the PS3 at Best Buy, Target, or Circuit City, which usually last all of 5 minutes before the entire stock is gone again.

taking a look back at this it seems as if it isn't about news anymore. i rememer the good ole days when you come come to this thread and actually get news.

can we get back to posting news on high definition...please!

Sony, making friends the world over.....no low cost BD player in EU until March. We believe the March date right?

http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=5199

fyi - excerpt of article entitled:

Report: Bad buzz for Blu-ray (hope for HD DVD)

12.6.04

Cymfony, a firm that measures online social media buzz, issued a report today that delivers some bad news to Sony and the other backers of the Blu-ray disc format for next-generation DVDs:

HD DVD is getting more love online.

The report, titled "A Blue Christmas for Blu-ray," includes the following points:

Though Blu-ray and HD DVD are getting roughly the same number of mentions online, there are 46 percent more positive discussions about HD DVD than Blu-ray.
More than half of the discussions of either format were "neutral" – neither positive nor negative. Blu-ray had equal proportions of positive and negative buzz (about 23.5 percent each), while HD DVD had a far greater proportion of positive buzz (14.2 percent negative vs. 32.9 percent positive).


Entire article at:
http://blogs.business2.com/utilitybelt/2006/12/report_bad_buzz.html

fyi - excerpt of article entitled:

Report: Bad buzz for Blu-ray (hope for HD DVD)

12.6.04

Cymfony, a firm that measures online social media buzz, issued a report today that delivers some bad news to Sony and the other backers of the Blu-ray disc format for next-generation DVDs:

HD DVD is getting more love online.

The report, titled "A Blue Christmas for Blu-ray," includes the following points:

Though Blu-ray and HD DVD are getting roughly the same number of mentions online, there are 46 percent more positive discussions about HD DVD than Blu-ray.
More than half of the discussions of either format were "neutral" – neither positive nor negative. Blu-ray had equal proportions of positive and negative buzz (about 23.5 percent each), while HD DVD had a far greater proportion of positive buzz (14.2 percent negative vs. 32.9 percent positive).


Entire article at:
http://blogs.business2.com/utilitybelt/2006/12/report_bad_buzz.html

Yup, that "Internet buzz" is the key to success. Look what it did for that #1 box office smash "Snakes on a Plane". :rolleyes:

Maybe if they had some "buzz" with a few CE companies, they would find someone besides Toshiba to make players... ;)

b2b

Yup, that "Internet buzz" is the key to success. Look what it did for that #1 box office smash "Snakes on a Plane". :rolleyes:To be fair, if that buzz had been after the movie hit the theaters it might have been a different story than before.

I think the Blu-ray camp should pay attention to the internet buzz. It is just one of the reasons that I think Sony should use VC-1.

--Darin

To be fair, if that buzz had been after the movie hit the theaters it might have been a different story than before.

I think the Blu-ray camp should pay attention to the internet buzz. It is just one of the reasons that I think Sony should use VC-1.

--Darin

It is akin to being held hostage, no less by marketeers on this forum. Sony, as does anyone else, only wants to do what they believe in - that seems to be that MPEG2 could compete with VC-1 given the available parameters.

Yup, that "Internet buzz" is the key to success. Look what it did for that #1 box office smash "Snakes on a Plane". :rolleyes:


Funny that you should use this analogy.
If either format is to be compared to Snakes on a Plane in the sense of something that was heavily hyped prior to release, only to fail to live up to that hype upon release, that format would certainly not be HD DVD

Sony's arrogance has really pissed people off, it seems. The company is squandering an easy win here just as it squandered an easy win in the console space when it transformed PlayStation from a game box into an expensive Trojan horse for Blu-Ray.

But someone help me: Is a BR win inevitable? Doesn't BR have more studio support? Clearly, it has more CE support. (And why would those companies want to compete with a cheaper, subsidized PS3?)

Finally, why the hell doesn't Toshiba have HD-DVD units available for the critical holiday season?

fyi - excerpt of article entitled:

Report: Bad buzz for Blu-ray (hope for HD DVD)

12.6.04

Cymfony, a firm that measures online social media buzz, issued a report today that delivers some bad news to Sony and the other backers of the Blu-ray disc format for next-generation DVDs:

HD DVD is getting more love online.

The report, titled "A Blue Christmas for Blu-ray," includes the following points:

Though Blu-ray and HD DVD are getting roughly the same number of mentions online, there are 46 percent more positive discussions about HD DVD than Blu-ray.
More than half of the discussions of either format were "neutral" ? neither positive nor negative. Blu-ray had equal proportions of positive and negative buzz (about 23.5 percent each), while HD DVD had a far greater proportion of positive buzz (14.2 percent negative vs. 32.9 percent positive).


Entire article at:
http://blogs.business2.com/utilitybelt/2006/12/report_bad_buzz.html

well clearly these numbers are wrong since they can't possibly take into account b2b's internet postings! ;)

kidding aside, and putting aside the accuracy of this reorted data, it would be extremely fool-hardy to dismiss/ignore 'internet buzz' given its dominance/prevalence in fact finding usage...after all, that is exactly what the avs forum is after all...

I think the Blu-ray camp should pay attention to the internet buzz. It is just one of the reasons that I think Sony should use VC-1.


Meh, I can't recall any differences shown on the BD versus HD-DVD comparison, many of which were MPEG2 versus VC1...

This was on an ISF calibrated Sony Qualia 004 connected with Toshiba HD-DVD and Panasonic Blu-ray player.

Meh, I can't recall any differences shown on the BD versus HD-DVD comparison, many of which were MPEG2 versus VC1...

This was on an ISF calibrated Sony Qualia 004 connected with Toshiba HD-DVD and Panasonic Blu-ray player.

Would you cede the point that to make Mpeg2 look as good as VC-1, you are negating the storage and bandwidth advantages of BD?

Put another way, what movies looked equal to VC-1 and what are their bit rates?

Would you cede the point that to make Mpeg2 look as good as VC-1, you are negating the storage and bandwidth advantages of BD?

Put another way, what movies looked equal to VC-1 and what are their bit rates?

To a degree perhaps, but if MI-III is any indication, the situation is not what you envisioned.

To a degree perhaps, but if MI-III is any indication, the situation is not what you envisioned.

didn't i read somewhere a very high bitrate for m:i iii on bd...someone was using their bitrate meter on their ps3 and saw peaks above 40?

even the highdefdigest review indicated a very high bitrate...i think they stated the bitrate for just the video and audio on the movie disc in bd was higher than the total combined bitrate for the hd dvd disc which included everything...or did i misunderstand ?

I plan to buy a PS3, it's the only good value I see as far BD players are concerned. I plan to use it for rented BD media. I don't think it's a very good value as a game console though, unless you also have an interest in BD movies.


It seems to be an excellent value. Especially in Canada, where all the stand-alone players are overpriced, yet the PS/3 has a lower price than the US. And it so far seems to be a darn good player. I'm rather impressed.

But, I concede your point for gaming, except perhaps if you have a sizeable PS/2 game collection that you actually play. But, I can't believe early adopter Xbox 360 or PS/3 people are thinking much about value.

The value play is the Wii. Not even close to the same league from a graphics point of view, but it sure looks like fun.

Gary

didn't i read somewhere a very high bitrate for m:i iii on bd...someone was using their bitrate meter on their ps3 and saw peaks above 40?


I think BD has a max video peak of 40. I checked out the bit-rate on the causeway attack scene, and I saw a 38.4Mbps at one point. And someone with Brave Story (a Japanese anime title from Warner Japan) said that it averages over 38Mbps and peaks at 40.

Gary

http://www.businessweek.com/innovate/content/dec2006/id20061205_269052.htm?campaign_id=rss_daily[/url]

On Page 2 Henson Comments on HD DVD drive. His statements are in contrast to previous MS Statements about an internal SKU. Heres hoping!!!

Blu-ray is dependent on the PS3 success. HD DVD is not dependent on the Xbox 360 fortunes,I would disagree with the former statement since Blu-ray has several things going for it besides the PS3. I agree completely about the latter statement though. HD DVD is not dependent on the Xbox 360 but personally I think it is dependent on getting more studio and CE support.


I think the Blu-ray camp should pay attention to the internet buzz. It is just one of the reasons that I think Sony should use VC-1.It would certainly help if Sony did change over to an advanced video codec, but I am pretty sure that a good number of those who attack Blu-ray would not stop even if that did happen.


Clearly, it has more CE support. (And why would those companies want to compete with a cheaper, subsidized PS3?)Just a guess but it might still be a better option than competing with Toshiba and their HD DVD players.


Finally, why the hell doesn't Toshiba have HD-DVD units available for the critical holiday season?Neither HD format is simple in design so making a player for either one is difficult. As such delays are not unexpected.

From 1 Dec:
http://www.akihabaranews.com/en/en/news-12902-Not+too+many+PS3+stocking+problems+any+more+in+Japan%21.html


Seems like Sony has enough PS3's to meet demand now in Japan. Manufacturing caught up or initial demand drop off?

BobInitial demand drop-off, would be my guess.

After all - only 5 launch games, and "iffy" compatibility with the existing PS2 library.

Once the initial excitement wears off, some folks will be glad they weren't able to get one before they thought about it more...

I think the Blu-ray camp should pay attention to the internet buzz. It is just one of the reasons that I think Sony should use VC-1.

--Darin
Very well put, Darin.

They'd have a lot less trouble from me if they did...

taking a look back at this it seems as if it isn't about news anymore. i rememer the good ole days when you come come to this thread and actually get news.

can we get back to posting news on high definition...please!
Ask and ye shall receive...

We've put together a little commentary with some of the latest news links - on the PS3 launch and it's failure to reverse the HD DVD sales lead.

http://www.hdnowonline.com/News_and_links.html

It'll be hard reading for some...

I have a question: when did DVD-Forum start to use "High Definition DVD" in place of "High Density DVD"? Not that it matters, just curious (reminds me of DVD acronym itself!).

this is wrong...but of course you can always post a link to the hd dvd standard that requires what you say it requires to prove me wrong

why a link. Here is the exact spec

5.2.1 Video Source Standards and Resolutions

Key Performance Requirements:
1) In the case of 60 Hz region, 3:2 pull down flag is mandatory for movie (film content), which means that synchronization between video, audio, sub-picture, and advanced objects follows 60 Hz vertical synchronization signal.

now I guess if you are watching a silent movie with no audio while no menus or PiP then you don't need to :)

Well if you hadn't noticed, with PS3 #1 and the addon #2 as the top two HD player devices, I would say that both devices are playing a huge role in their respective formats. In fact if the addon wasn't here, HD-DVD would be "out of business" in the player department.

b2b You are right. The Xbox 360 HD DVD movie player bundle is probably keeping HD DVD sales consistent without a stand alone player being available for sale.

Without it, HD DVD sales and penetration would be stagnant. But with it available at the $199 pricepoint or on the street for less, it gives Toshiba the luxury of being able to delay the launch of its 2nd generation products without damaging the HD DVD format.

Not to say that the delay is good, its just that the HD DVD bundles sales miitigate the damage to some extend and our probably keeping HD DVD sales steady.

didn't i read somewhere a very high bitrate for m:i iii on bd...someone was using their bitrate meter on their ps3 and saw peaks above 40?

Ben:
video is 40, A/V is 48, all is 54. I don't have a PS3 but I am guessing it would not only show the video rate.

Would you cede the point that to make Mpeg2 look as good as VC-1, you are negating the storage and bandwidth advantages of BD?


2ch a bit but not completely. there is still an advantage, just potentially not as big

After all - only 5 launch games, and "iffy" compatibility with the existing PS2 library.rdjam, last I checked there were more than 5 PS3 games at launch and if you are referring to the 5 exclusive PS3 games it is rather deceptive not to make the distinction clear. As for backward compatibility if you consider the PS3 to be iffy what would you consider the Xbox 360 to be?


Once the initial excitement wears off, some folks will be glad they weren't able to get one before they thought about it more...Doubtful, and didn't you say only two days ago that you would leave the attacks to the other side? What happened to that idea?


http://www.hdnowonline.com/News_and_links.html

It'll be hard reading for some...Certainly, but that would be from the heavy and apparent bias more than anything else. Honestly rdjam it is almost like you didn't even give a passing thought towards fairness on that website with some of the statements you made:

it would appear that the PS3 is not going to have a significant "attach rate" for moviesWhich is a guess.

Worse yet - there are multiple reports surfacing that a "hack" weakness has been discovered in the PS3 that allows games, and also Bluray movies, to be copied to the harddrive.I have heard you can do the same thing with any HD DVD computer drive. Also without breaking the encryption the data you get off the disc is useless.

And the Xbox 360 HD DVD player has had very successful sales since its launch in November.Do you have any numbers to support that statement?

Sony has also launched it's standalone Bluray player, to mixed reviews.Considering the article you linked to (http://blogs.business2.com/utilitybelt/2006/12/sonys_1000_blur.html) how does that count as a review?

Some analysts have said that Sony will likely not ever develop a PS4Why even add a comment like that?


Also while browsing that site I was somewhat amazed at the carefully chosen selection of Blu-ray movies that were used (http://www.hdnowonline.com/Bluray_Reviews.html), which I notice are even edited for maximum negativity. Honestly besides rdjam can anyone really defend that as being a fair listing of Blu-ray reviews?

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/12/01/60minutes/main2222059.shtml

Since so many of us HD guys are renting from Netflix I thought this video might be of interest. Link has a 4 page story and the video which was broadcast nationally last night on 60 Minutes.

It shows how they inspect the disk (they look at it) and place it another envelope to ship out without every placing the discs back on the shelves for popular titles.

Showed the interior of one of the warehouses as well as the workforce. I thought I even saw a HD DVD liner being stuffed into an envelope. Just a note while watching the video, they showed a rack of Spiderman 2 movies. About 100 cases that hold about 100 movies each, and they showed a lesser title that filled a 100 case box. That was one of 40 warehouses for Netflix.

If that means that Netflix buys 100 x 100 x 40 = 400,000 copies of a blockbuster hit or 100 x 40 = 4000 copies of a regular back catalog release, that can go a long way in making a movie release profitable.

Say HD DVD or Blu-ray equates to 5% of DVD sales. If they are buying 200,000 copies or more of a standard DVD, they might buy 10,000 or more HD copies of that release. That by itself may cover the HD authoring costs.

Netflix would be our friend in the HD business world if it assures the studios that they at least cover the costs of a HD release. That takes a lot of the risk out, and would make production capacity the major obstacle.

edit: 40 sites not 26

anthonyp, richard paul, b2b, what do you guys own in terms of blu ray players and/or hd dvd players?
and if you do own, what movies have you dissected with your own eyes and ears?

The reason I ask is I have noticed that not one of you has given any input as to your experience with either format, but with what you have read here from others. And that you question every detail about someone elses experience but never giving your experience.

I read the blu ray posts as I am thinking about getting a ps3 or the panasonic player and I can't seem to find any posts by any of you 3 that you have bought a player and watch movies on it. I don't mind debating with blu ray supporters about which format may be better but wouldn't it be a bit more fun to own a player and talk about your experience with the movies? Plus, you 3 are the most vocal supporters of blu ray but I have read by you is the same propaganda from 4 or 5 months ago without one iota of "I have a xxxx player and find its picture quality to be xxx for this movie". What are you guys waiting for to purchase a player?

Ah yes.. the evil A1 "skipping & glitching" problem all fabricated by BD supporters... :rolleyes:

That problem is real and has affected the A1 since day one. It has been patched and re-patched with a steady stream of FW updates and it has yet to go away, with significant numbers still being reported.

For some reason Toshiba gets a pass on this (is it a "what do you expect for $499" attitude ??), but if it had been a Sony player, there would be screaming to all holy hell and back.... ;)

b2b The issue is how significant are these issues versus the joy and pleasure the satisfied owners are getting from the device. Despite the very real issue all indications are the first generation player owners are overwhelmingly satisfied with their purchase and our buying/renting a lot of HD DVD movies to play on it.

Its a order of magnitude problem and an expectations issue. Even with an occasional hiccup, the PQ and AQ is amazing to most people and they feel they got a great value for their money. The HD DVD players exceeded their expectations and any problems are placed into perspective.

The second generation players will be held to a greater standard of error checking performance and ergonomics. They will be sold to a larger audience probably less critical of pure performance but less tolerant of user interface issues.

Long bootup and slow responding remote commands and the occasional audio sync issue won't be tolerated at all.

The HD A1 and HD XA1 issues are tolerated not only because they were somewhat expected as a 1st generation product, but also because those players deliver where it counted for the early adopters, the picture quality and audio quality rocks. And they delivered unexpected bonuses like excellent standard DVD upconversion and CD playback that were seen as pleasant surprises.

If you actually owned a HD DVD player, the reason that people love them wouldn't be a mystery to you. :)

Gee, I'm enjoying the hell out of my fully functioning A1. Sorry I'm so deluded as to think I'm enjoying top-notch HD entertainment in my home theater for a reasonable price. :rolleyes: I don't think someone is capable of telling me that I am not enjoying the heck out of my HD XA1.

Its a order of magnitude problem and an expectations issue. Even with an occasional hiccup, the PQ and AQ is amazing to most people and they feel they got a great value for their money. The HD DVD players exceeded their expectations and any problems are placed into perspective.
The expectations of most PS3 buyers (so far) are gaming on a future-proof player and disc format.

What they get is the above + BD player + SACD player and that is just the 500 USD version.

I say anyone who complains about the PS3 running hot (still cooler than the 360 though vastly smaller in size) should be offered an A1 in a one for one swap :D

Then, we will see expectations cut down to size.. IMO

anthonyp, richard paul, b2b, what do you guys own in terms of blu ray players and/or hd dvd players?I have owned a PS3 since launch.


and if you do own, what movies have you dissected with your own eyes and ears?Several, which I will review when I do my PS3 review sometime in the next few weeks. So far Ice Age 2 has been the best looking Blu-ray disc I have watched.


The reason I ask is I have noticed that not one of you has given any input as to your experience with either format, but with what you have read here from others. And that you question every detail about someone elses experience but never giving your experience.I actually posted about Ice Age 2 earlier today (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9074400&&#post9074400). Also when I see people bashing the PS3 simply because it supports Blu-ray I do get a little steamed and why do you think that is wrong?

anthonyp, richard paul, b2b, what do you guys own in terms of blu ray players and/or hd dvd players?
and if you do own, what movies have you dissected with your own eyes and ears?

The reason I ask is I have noticed that not one of you has given any input as to your experience with either format, but with what you have read here from others. And that you question every detail about someone elses experience but never giving your experience.

I read the blu ray posts as I am thinking about getting a ps3 or the panasonic player and I can't seem to find any posts by any of you 3 that you have bought a player and watch movies on it. I don't mind debating with blu ray supporters about which format may be better but wouldn't it be a bit more fun to own a player and talk about your experience with the movies? Plus, you 3 are the most vocal supporters of blu ray but I have read by you is the same propaganda from 4 or 5 months ago without one iota of "I have a xxxx player and find its picture quality to be xxx for this movie". What are you guys waiting for to purchase a player? In fairness to those vocal Blu-ray supporters, I think most of them said whey were waiting for a PS3 as the Samsung was not a great value to them at its initial $999 price point. Thats a rational decision, if you evaluated the Samsung as not being the best value the format would bring.

But if you pass on buying a PS3 and still defend/advocate Blu-ray without practical experience, then thats kinda silly.

Now that the other Blu-ray players are on the street and most persistent people should be able to get a PS3 within the next month, I think they probably will have one or the other shortly.

I would cut them some slack because of the PS3 delays and initial availability. But if they don't have one by the time I get my paws on one, then their credibility will indeed suffer.

Ask and ye shall receive...

We've put together a little commentary with some of the latest news links - on the PS3 launch and it's failure to reverse the HD DVD sales lead.

http://www.hdnowonline.com/News_and_links.html

It'll be hard reading for some...
I'll say :D (moi having got so used to truth and other such luxuries)


"At one-half, to one-third, of the price of the "other brand", "

rdjam, at least qualify that with "stand-alone players" or retract it.


"The VC1 encoding used by all HD DVD studios is consistently and demonstrably better than the Mpeg2 and AVC (Mpeg4) encoding used by most studios exclusive to the Bluray format."

So, you curse BD-exclusive studios for being incompetent, even with AVC and then ask that these incompetents please release on HD.

etc etc..


I only read the first couple of paragraphs, but I could see that the party not gaining anything from this site is the FACTS.. my 2c

I hope HD-DVD gets studio support, but this is no way to achieve that end. So much for some cursing sony for hype and false marketing.

The expectations of most PS3 buyers (so far) are gaming on a future-proof player and disc format.

What they get is the above + BD player + SACD player and that is just the 500 USD version.

I say anyone who complains about the PS3 running hot (still cooler than the 360 though vastly smaller in size) should be offered an A1 in a one for one swap :D

Then, we will see expectations cut down to size.. IMO

You're out of your freaking mind if you think I'd trade my slick and very fast PS3 for the slow and clunky A1.

anthonyp, richard paul, b2b, what do you guys own in terms of blu ray players and/or hd dvd players?
and if you do own, what movies have you dissected with your own eyes and ears?

The reason I ask is I have noticed that not one of you has given any input as to your experience with either format, but with what you have read here from others. And that you question every detail about someone elses experience but never giving your experience.

I read the blu ray posts as I am thinking about getting a ps3 or the panasonic player and I can't seem to find any posts by any of you 3 that you have bought a player and watch movies on it. I don't mind debating with blu ray supporters about which format may be better but wouldn't it be a bit more fun to own a player and talk about your experience with the movies? Plus, you 3 are the most vocal supporters of blu ray but I have read by you is the same propaganda from 4 or 5 months ago without one iota of "I have a xxxx player and find its picture quality to be xxx for this movie". What are you guys waiting for to purchase a player?

I quit chasing technology a few years back, I found out they could build and upgrade quicker than I could afford to waste money.. ;) If I were to run right out and buy a player right now it would be a PS3. But more than anything that is holding me back is the titles. Were are the titles ?? Is Hollywood going to treat their premium customers to leftovers from DVD forever ?? I want new titles on HD before they are released on DVD. When Hollywood gets serious about HD (vs. DVD) then the public will too.

b2b

You're out of your freaking mind if you think I'd trade my slick and very fast PS3 for the slow and clunky A1.
Amen to that.. can you hear the truth, PS3-bashers?

Cant friggin Wait for a PS3 in Singapore. I want one so bad I can almost taste it *

* It tastes like chicken :cool:

Sony's arrogance has really pissed people off, it seems. The company is squandering an easy win here just as it squandered an easy win in the console space when it transformed PlayStation from a game box into an expensive Trojan horse for Blu-Ray.

But someone help me: Is a BR win inevitable? Doesn't BR have more studio support? Clearly, it has more CE support. (And why would those companies want to compete with a cheaper, subsidized PS3?)

Finally, why the hell doesn't Toshiba have HD-DVD units available for the critical holiday season?

I'll try and answer these straight up. I'm sure someone from the other side will step up to correct my "mistakes." ;)

1. Is a BR win inevitable? That is the primary debate in this thread. BR supporters say yes, HD-DVD supporters say no. As the months pass we will have a better picture of the future. My best guess is that both formats survive based on current information. Shake the 8-ball and ask again in 3 months. ;)

2. Doesn't BR have more studio support? Yes. I would also encourage you to consider the titles available from each as well. The below link has a great list of titles along with color coding of which titles are HD-DVD exclusive, which titles are BR exclusive and which titles are available in both formats.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=665702&page=1&pp=30
This link shows various disc stats between the two formats.
http://www.thedvdwars.com/index.cfm

3. Why would CEs want to compete with the PS3? First of all, if you want a BR player today, it's much easier to buy a stand alone player than a PS3. No one knows when the shortages of PS3 systems will end. In addition, the PS3 will not appeal to everyone. Picture quality is apparently very good on the PS3, but the user interface does not provide quite the same convenience as a stand alone player. Finally, big money early adopters may very well still to choose to pay for a sexy looking high end player instead of putting a PS3 in their rack.

4. Why doesn't Toshiba have HD-DVD players during the critical holiday season? This is the one significant mistake I've seen from the HD-DVD side to date. The 2nd gen boxes were originally supposed to be avaible by late October or early November for the $499 unit and late December for the $999 unit (list prices). Apparently there was a problem with one of the chips used in the lower cost player that was not caught until the final weeks before it was set to launch. The less expensive model is expected to start shipping out from Toshiba sometime next week. The more expensive model is expected either late December or sometime in January, depending on who you ask.

Personally, I'm buying a 2nd Gen HD-DVD box and a PS3 (hoping I don't have too far into 07 for PS3 availability). I think access to both formats is ideal. I believe both formats will be around for some time, and universal players will come to market that support both formats. Others believe that one format will come to dominate and we won't see universal players developed before that happens.

Ask and ye shall receive...

We've put together a little commentary with some of the latest news links - on the PS3 launch and it's failure to reverse the HD DVD sales lead.

http://www.hdnowonline.com/News_and_links.html

It'll be hard reading for some...

Thanks for setting up this site and the petition. I've signed and sent e-mails. ;)

Ask and ye shall receive...

We've put together a little commentary with some of the latest news links - on the PS3 launch and it's failure to reverse the HD DVD sales lead.

http://www.hdnowonline.com/News_and_links.html

It'll be hard reading for some...

Hard reading... Yeah. Talk about objective and unbiased information. I actually found it more funny (and sad):

Earlier this year, a group of Home Theater and Home Video enthusiasts started a petitioncampaign to persuade studios not yet supporting the superior High Definition DVD (HD DVD) format, to start doing so.

The response was dramatic, with more than 1,100 people like you and I signing up to the initial petition. We decided to become more organized and start this website, to promote a new version of the petition.
Talk about "dramatic" response! 1,100 people! I pity the newbies searching the web for information about which format to choose etc., but hopefully at least some of them will be turned off by the obvious bias in the writing on this particular site.

The purpose of this site is not to "bash" the competition.
Right.

Ask and ye shall receive...

We've put together a little commentary with some of the latest news links - on the PS3 launch and it's failure to reverse the HD DVD sales lead.

http://www.hdnowonline.com/News_and_links.html

It'll be hard reading for some...It wasn't hard to read, but was interesting. You might want to know that:

"A quick check online at various sources can barely account for a few 10's of PS3s - certainly not 125,000 to 175,000."

makes the writer look like they are either incompetent when it comes to using the internet or are purposely trying to spin things. The link the article refers to says a "large percentage", yet the claim in the article is that the latest "excuse" is, "that no-one really has any machines at home yet." Anybody can search on ebay and see that there are still over 10 thousand ads with PS3 in them (although not all of them are for consoles), so why would the person writing that article only find "a few 10's of PS3s"? Were they trying not to find them?

I'm not sure where the claim:
The VC1 encoding used by all HD DVD studios is consistently and demonstrably better than the Mpeg2 and AVC (Mpeg4) encoding used by most studios exclusive to the Bluray format.came from, but if you wrote it then I would like to hear what evidence you use. I hope you aren't one of those people who can't figure out what is the horse and what is the cart and thought that U2 being the worst looking title from Paramount's initial offering and being MPEG4 was a knock on MPEG4, when getting used for the most difficult material isn't a sign of being inferior. Especially after Paramount had a look at both and chose MPEG4 for that difficult one. I'm a fan of VC1, but the best doctors generally get called in on the toughest cases and that shouldn't be that difficult to figure out when it comes to codecs and material with different levels of difficulty.

Now that one HD DVD studio is releasing with AVC/MPEG4 for all of their initial releases (as far as I know all of them in the first group from the Weinstein's are) I wonder if the person that wrote the above will feel the same way or will change their spin. Especially considering how good some of those releases look.

One more thing about the PS3 vs the XBOX360. From what I recall, I got the impression that you believe the attach rate for all PS3s will be lower than the attach rate for all XBOX360s. Is that the case? Just in case that wasn't clear, I'm talking about the attach rate for all XBOX360s and that includes both those who will buy the add-on and those who won't. Obviously those who buy the add-on will have the highest attach rate as a group, but that is a different question. If you do believe the XBOX360 will have a higher attach rate despite having an extra hurdle (buying the add-on) I would be interested in your logic for that one.

--Darin

rdjam, last I checked there were more than 5 PS3 games at launch and if you are referring to the 5 exclusive PS3 games it is rather deceptive not to make the distinction clear.

...snniiippp...
Whew - another long one. In short, the stories linked are pretty reflective of the reception PS3 and BR are having - I've just brought them together for one-stop-shopping. Why not have a go at the actual writers? They're all linked for you.

Can you name the "more than five" PS3-specific games that were on sale at the launch - or even today?

Nice try...

I'll say :D (moi having got so used to truth and other such luxuries)


"At one-half, to one-third, of the price of the "other brand", "

rdjam, at least qualify that with "stand-alone players" or retract it.
Why retract it? It's true for standalones, sure. But for 6 million Xbox 360 owners, it's also precisely the right numbers: $200, vs $500 or $600.

"The VC1 encoding used by all HD DVD studios is consistently and demonstrably better than the Mpeg2 and AVC (Mpeg4) encoding used by most studios exclusive to the Bluray format."

So, you curse BD-exclusive studios for being incompetent, even with AVC and then ask that these incompetents please release on HD.Nice try - I never blamed the studios. I blamed the codecs. And Bluray, on the whole, has this assinine "politic" about it that "discourages" Bluray-exclusive studios from using VC1.

Everyone here pretty much accepts that VC1 is the current reference benchmark for quality. So I'm making a point on the codecs. Hell, if Sony decided to use VC1, I wouldn't be HALF the problem I am right now...

I hope HD-DVD gets studio support, but this is no way to achieve that end. So much for some cursing sony for hype and false marketing.Thanks for your opinion, have a nice day ;)

Fortunately, anyone else who reads the petition can see that it is very positive - particularly towards the studios (ie, in the Executive Brief)

Comparing those apples and lemons again?

From what I recall, I got the impression that you believe the attach rate for all PS3s will be lower than the attach rate for all XBOX360s. Is that the case?
Of course, you know I've never said anything of the sort... mostly because I know it would be slightly potty to try to establish an "HD DVD attach rate" for something that doesn't have an HD DVD drive :p

Nope - as you know, what I said is that "every HD DVD Add-on player sold, will have a much higher movies attach rate than every PS3 sold".

A perfectly legitimate comparison, given that both the PS3 and the HD DVD add-on player seem to be shipping in roughly equivalent numbers.

Given the higher attach rate for the HD DVD add-on, HD DVD movie sales will continue to outpace Bluray.

Clearer now?

Sony's Stan Glasgow talks to CED.

There’s “no limitation on our plan” for Sony’s first Blu-ray player, which “finally” started shipping last week, Glasgow said. Demand for the standalone Blu-ray deck “is considerably below” that of PS3 because it’s an early-adopter, $1,000 product, he said. Sony isn’t pleased it needs to offer firmware upgrades to bring the Blu-ray player into compatibility with features like rewritable recording or BD-Java interactivity he said. Such upgrades aren’t yet “acceptable” to the average consumer, but they soon will be, he said.

I have owned a PS3 since launch.

Several, which I will review when I do my PS3 review sometime in the next few weeks. So far Ice Age 2 has been the best looking Blu-ray disc I have watched.

I actually posted about Ice Age 2 earlier today (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9074400&&#post9074400). Also when I see people bashing the PS3 simply because it supports Blu-ray I do get a little steamed and why do you think that is wrong?

I'm glad at least one of you own a BR player in order to speak from personal experience.

I havent seen Ice Age 2 yet, I put it away for a stocking stuffer for my daughter. But seriously its an animation, it autta looking friggin incredible in high def. If it doesnt theres a big problem.

So far I havent been to impressed with the majority of BR titles I have seen to this point but I will review each one now that my set finally got ISF calibrated last week.

I did finally get to watch Tears of the Sun last night, for this title I was impressed. This is the first one in BR that I have seen that I honestly think matches that 3d look I get from the better looking HD DVDs

My point is if were going to make comparisons between formats lets do it with something a little more releastic other then cartoons

Another deliberate attempt to compare those apples and lemons again.


Of course, you know full well I've never said anything of the sort... mostly because I know it would be utterly assinine to try to establish an "HD DVD attach rate" for something that doesn't have an HD DVD drive :p

Nope - as you know, what I said is that "every HD DVD Add-on player sold, will have a much higher movies attach rate than every PS3 sold".

A perfectly legitimate comparison, given that both the PS3 and the HD DVD add-on player seem to be shipping in roughly equivalent numbers.

Given the higher attach rate for the HD DVD add-on, HD DVD movie sales will continue to outpace Bluray.

Was that a little simpler for you?


rdjam

How about toning it down a bit?

Try to keep it friendly :)

Thank you :)

Nice try...

Why retract it? It's true for standalones, sure. But for 6 million Xbox 360 owners, it's also precisely the right numbers: $200, vs $500 or $600.

Nice try - I never blamed the studios. I blamed the codecs. And Bluray, on the whole, has this assinine "politic" about it that "discourages" Bluray-exclusive studios from using VC1.

Everyone here pretty much accepts that VC1 is the current reference benchmark for quality. So I'm making a point on the codecs. Hell, if Sony decided to use VC1, I wouldn't be HALF the problem I am right now...

Thanks for your opinion, have a nice day ;)

Fortunately, anyone else who reads the petition can see that it is very positive - particularly towards the studios (ie, in the Executive Brief)
I always have a nice day. The occasional laugh generated by posts does help though :)

Using your given criterion: for 200,000 PS3 owners, BD-entry is free. That gives me a ratio of 200 : 0 I tried to calculate it but i kept running into some fancy number named infinity. At least, I tried, eh?

You have a nice day too :)

It is staggering that 70% of AVS people do not want BD titles to be as good as they can be, even with no -ive consequence to HD-DVD PQ or no. of titles. This is the only conclusion to be drawn from the POLL on the BD petition in this forum.

I thought it was about the "Look and sound of perfect". Is perfection defined as:
"Equal to what HD-DVD can provide and no further"? Come on, don't skew a poll requesting the very best that the next-gen AV formats can offer. All I ever hear is how badly encoded BD movies are. Now, when I request for better encodes, 30% support. Wow

(granted the poll is a small sample, so far)

[attacking post deleted by Moderator]

poster

if you disagree with a post, challenge it on its technical merits

Do not attack AVS, Moderators, or other posters

Wow... You spend day and night on this forum praising BR and bashing HD and you dont even own a player on either format let alone both to make an informed opinion on either, that is really pathetic!

If the players and the movies dont fit your budget/standards enough to support it then why do you feel the need to spend every day on this forum discussing it, are you that lonely and bored from not having any movies to watch?

What is pathetic is the thoughts of having to suffer with the wretched spawn of DVD for another 10 years in the form of HD-DVD. :eek: Thanks to places like AVS, I don't have to buy and experiment with equipment anymore. I already have enough examples of new and exciting "technology" littering the garage and in storage boxes. ;)

After years of paying to be a "crash test dummy" for companies to debug their products, I have decided to let others do that work for me. Thank you for your support Tom... :)

b2b

Ask and ye shall receive...

We've put together a little commentary with some of the latest news links - on the PS3 launch and it's failure to reverse the HD DVD sales lead.

http://www.hdnowonline.com/News_and_links.html

It'll be hard reading for some...

"Restraint, responsibility and respect"... you and your extremely biased little website show none of that. You insult our intelligence, that's all. How the more reasonable HD-DVD supporters around here accuse b2b of "bashing" and fail to see that rdjam is 10 times more biased (and 10 times less analytical) is beyond me.

I put him on ignore a long time ago.

No need to see his petty little site either.

Moderator

Full moon 4 Dec: maybe that explains it?

You guys need to cool it............

What is pathetic is the thoughts of having to suffer with the wretched spawn of DVD for another 10 years in the form of HD-DVD.
That reminds me of Intel's vision when they developed the Itanium. They wanted to get rid of the old "outdated" x86 instruction set and begin with an all new and clean approach.

What is pathetic is the thoughts of having to suffer with the wretched spawn of DVD for another 10 years in the form of HD-DVD. :eek: Thanks to places like AVS, I don't have to buy and experiment with equipment anymore. I already have enough examples of new and exciting "technology" littering the garage and in storage boxes. ;)

After years of paying to be a "crash test dummy" for companies to debug their products, I have decided to let others do that work for me. Thank you for your support Tom... :)

b2b

Really? I thought Sony initially was planning to stick with MPEG2 instead of using VC1/ AVC for video encodes. If not because of the success of VC1 in HD DVD, you will be watching your BD disc using 10 years old codec for another 10 years. :rolleyes:

"Restraint, responsibility and respect"... you and your extremely biased little website show none of that. You insult our intelligence, that's all. How the more reasonable HD-DVD supporters around here accuse b2b of "bashing" and fail to see that rdjam is 10 times more biased (and 10 times less analytical) is beyond me.

rdjam at least owns a player in which to base an opinion

rdjam

How about toning it down a bit?

Try to keep it friendly :)

Thank you :)Quite right, Mark.

Sorry for my lack of patience there... I've tarted it up a bit to soften the cheekbones :)

What is pathetic is the thoughts of having to suffer with the wretched spawn of DVD for another 10 years in the form of HD-DVD. :eek: Thanks to places like AVS, I don't have to buy and experiment with equipment anymore. I already have enough examples of new and exciting "technology" littering the garage and in storage boxes. ;)

After years of paying to be a "crash test dummy" for companies to debug their products, I have decided to let others do that work for me. Thank you for your support Tom... :)

b2b

How would you know if you have never owned the player in which to keep posting this fud about the format?

As for me being an early adopter (like so many others here) that you want to refer to as test dummies, I've been enjoying HiDef for a half year now so I dont think I am the one that is missing out

That reminds me of Intel's vision when they developed the Itanium. They wanted to get rid of the old "outdated" x86 instruction set and begin with an all new and clean approach.

The difference being that the x86 stuff worked really well for the may uses it was expected to do. With DVD the only part of it that ever worked well was stamping out ROM discs. All of the recordable versions (except maybe RAM) were pure crap and will be the same for HD-DVD. Why do you think none of the CE companies are supporting HD-DVD ?? It's because the technology has no upside for profit in complementary products. Building players is a dead end profit cycle just like the current DVD.

b2b

"Restraint, responsibility and respect"... you and your extremely biased little website show none of that. You insult our intelligence, that's all. How the more reasonable HD-DVD supporters around here accuse b2b of "bashing" and fail to see that rdjam is 10 times more biased (and 10 times less analytical) is beyond me.
Shhh... (ad hominem)

E_S - if you'd like to start a website to round up the couple of good PS3 reviews, then fine.

That short commentary had 27 sources of information linked to it as backup for the opinions that were expressed - sources that I don't control.

I don't think my opinion is alone, but whether or not everyone agrees, I certainly made an effort to back my thoughts up with a little empirical evidence.

If I am "10 times more biased" because I don't hold the same view as you but make my case too convincingly, then so be it... sticks and stones, etc

BTW - I was a "crash test dummy" for DVHS for a few years also, and enjoyed every day of it. At least DVHS and HD DVD have made the very best of the platform and technology - a very pleasing effort.

What is pathetic is the thoughts of having to suffer with the wretched spawn of DVD for another 10 years in the form of HD-DVD. :eek: Thanks to places like AVS, I don't have to buy and experiment with equipment anymore. I already have enough examples of new and exciting "technology" littering the garage and in storage boxes. ;)

After years of paying to be a "crash test dummy" for companies to debug their products, I have decided to let others do that work for me. Thank you for your support Tom... :)

b2b

isn't your 'suffering' self-imposed at this point? ;)

i wish you would stop trying to sell that 'antiquated technology/format for the next ten years' angle as it only serves to weaken your standing and insult the intelligence of many avs readers who see through that smoke screen with ease.

focus on the technical strengths of bd that exist for the moment, higher bandwidth and more capacity, and point out that not every studio/title will squander those strengths by using mpeg2 and/or pcm.

rdjam at least owns a player in which to base an opinion
Thanks, Tom :)

In fact, three even. A1, Xbox HD player and a Samsung BR.

I'm really looking forward to adding the XA2, though. Can hardly wait to start decoding those DTS-HD tracks. :D