E_S - if you'd like to start a website to round up the couple of good PS3 reviews, then fine.

I don't need to do this as I'm not clinging to a losing format...

That short commentary had 27 sources of information linked to it as backup for the opinions that were expressed - sources that I don't control.

Your ridiculusly obvious and extreme bias is in the choice of which "sources of information" you link to.

If I am "10 times more biased" because I don't hold the same view as you but make my case too convincingly, then so be it... sticks and stones, etc

No, you're 10 times more biased because you – unlike b2b – never concede anything. You make out every bit of HD-DVD news to be positive and every bit of BD news to be negative. This hurts your credibility enormously.

And trust me, "making your case too convincingly" is really not your problem... :o

How would you know if you have never owned the player in which to keep posting this fud about the format?

As for me being an early adopter (like so many others here) that you want to refer to as test dummies, I've been enjoying HiDef for a half year now so I dont think I am the one that is missing out

You don't need to go to Egypt to learn about the Pyramids.. It's called the "HD-DVD Players" forum.. ;)

Everything you could ever possibly want to know about the Toshiba A1 is on that forum. Plus I spend about an hour with one hands-on at a B&M store. All of the stuff about the crappy remote, slow operation and clunkiness were evident in 15 minutes. Thanks, but no thanks...

b2b

...


No, you're 10 times more biased because you – unlike b2b – never concede anything. You make out every bit of HD-DVD news to be positive and every bit of BD news to be negative. This hurts your credibility enormously.

...

thanks for my morning chuckle ;)

thanks for my morning chuckle ;)

Just days ago b2b praised Microsoft's efforts in making VC-1 a great codec. But you may chuckle instead of facing the facts.

You don't need to go to Egypt to learn about the Pyramids.. It's called the "HD-DVD Players" forum.. ;)

Everything you could ever possibly want to know about the Toshiba A1 is on that forum. Plus I spend about an hour with one hands-on at a B&M store. All of the stuff about the crappy remote, slow operation and clunkiness were evident in 15 minutes. Thanks, but no thanks...

b2b I think everyone needs some milk and cookies here. :)

OT, B2B, that is exactly why the first hand real world experience of owning a player is more valuable that test driving it in a restricted environment.

I've done that at trade shows and in B&M stores to try out some of the Blu-ray products I did not buy, but I haven't endlessly criticized their failings in real world use or expressed amazement when actual owners could like a product even if it had flaws.

Its kinda silly to be a self proclaimed expert on the HD DVD players issues when you don't even own one. If you actually did, you would understand why those issues, while real are insignificant in most people's oponion to the qulaity of the picture and audio coming out of the device. Most HD DVD owners are satistified, becasue they feel they got what they paid for.

Most HD DVD owners are not stupid and are unaware of any propaganda, they like the machine because it performs where it counts, and it exceeds their expectations.

If you actually owned the HD A1 or HD XA1 or a clone, you would realize that in practical experience, the issues you so joyously proclaim are no big deal to most owners because they are rare or easy to work around and are minor compared to the fantastic experience of watching and listening to movies in the best consumer movie title format ever produced (along with Blu-ray). The HD DVD titles have been steady in coming out, and their quality has been consistently excellent.

The earlier issues with the first firmware were corrected to a large part with future updates and Toshiba seemed to be very understanding to user issues. 5.1 True HD support and better 720p playback were included. Things like excellent standard DVD upconversion were seen as surprises. Audio CDs sound fantastic.

Those issues you complain about, in practice don't amount to much. Most people never experience them, and when they do, its usually simple to correct. Most of the time taking the disc out and cleaning it works. If I had a borrowed disc or rented disc skipping, I take it out and clean it. No big deal.

On the other ergonomic issues, I have found through normal use that the remote works better for me as I have used it more. The audio confirmation of commands, and the generation understanding of how the player responds make it in real use a lot less problematic than one finds in a 15 minute session. When you spends hours with it, you find out and work around the quirks. You get into a routine and the startup (faster under later firmware IMHO) doesn't bother you anymore.

If you were a real user, instead of a detractor, you would understand.

Not to say, I personally won't upgrade to a second generation player, but thats just me, I can afford it and I'll consider that a bargain also, if it performs as well as my HD XA1 does, with faster response times. I'm sure I'll find a good home for my HD XA1, to someone who'll appreciate it for what it does, good and bad.

In short, it doesn't matter what the 1st generation HD DVD player issues were, those are already in the hands of satisfied users. For the price, most HD DVD owners found that their expectations were met. And that price was half of what the stand alone Blu-ray players are.

You learn how to use the remote, the response time is not perfect but bearable, and real issues are rare and easily correctable. Its not a mystery to those that have a HD DVD who are enjoying HD right now, why they are satisfied.

If you had real world experience in its use, you would understand why. :)

Just days ago b2b praised Microsoft's efforts in making VC-1 a great codec. But you may chuckle instead of facing the facts.

a second chuckle, thank you...i will be forever in your debt ;)

You don't need to go to Egypt to learn about the Pyramids.. It's called the "HD-DVD Players" forum.. ;)

Everything you could ever possibly want to know about the Toshiba A1 is on that forum. Plus I spend about an hour with one hands-on at a B&M store. All of the stuff about the crappy remote, slow operation and clunkiness were evident in 15 minutes. Thanks, but no thanks...

b2b

A whole hour?

Nope.
What spin do you think I am putting on it? Amir tried to get somebody to bet with him and I asked him to take my bet about something he had misled people about. He then said that he would take the bet and concede right then and that I should contact him to get the money (or a Ruby projector). He tried to make it as clear as he could that he was not kidding and that he would follow through if I would agree. While I was using a joking tone above (I'm sure you saw the (;) :)), it sure looked like it was a "financial incentive" to me.

--Darin

Hold the phone.

I watched that whole thing go down (and upon subsequrt posts, chad_cincy has reposted... thanks).

The entire tone of that thing was that he was tired of your technicality-siezing posts and if "getting a win" would make you happy, then so be it.

Seriously Darin... your attention to detail is amazing and particulary useful for objective testing of the technicalities of formats and hardware, but I think that causes you to miss out on the subtle nuance of human interaction at times.

"I'm so hungry I could eat a horse." is not necessarily a literal statement.

And a frusterated "Fine. You win, where do I write the check?" is not necessarily calculated hush money.

Sigh...

Can we have a group hug now? :)

I don't need .. Your ridiculusly obvious... No, you're 10 times more... And trust me..

Of course it was a different subject. I thought I made that clear in my sentence, but maybe it wasn't. Not sure why you think it needed to be on the same subject that he had offered to bet somebody else on.
Nope. That isn't true. The original proposed bet was whether there was enough interest to actually do it. As I made clear, if nobody actually did it within a year, then I would pay off. You can change it to something else if you want to like somebody else did, but it isn't reality.
A "bet" where a person accepts and concedes in the same breath isn't a bet. Obviously he didn't expect a chance at getting $7500 from me like a real bet would be. What do you think Amir expected to get for the $7500? Money doesn't have to be to post favorable things. It can be to stop pointing out some things that are unfavorable.

--Darin

If the original bet Amir was making (regarding BD50's) had nothing to do with your bet, then the only reason I can see why you even included it was to make it sound like Amir was the one who was extending the bet to you, as if offering a bribe.

That clearly was not he case, so you shouldn't have included it.

Oh, and by the way, if somebody's motive is to silence the opposition, then making the offer in plain view of the fourum is likely the venue to do it.

Now, if the person was using a little hyperbole to make a point, then in front of everybody would be EXACTLY where a person would do it.

Perhaps considering the context of the "bet" would do you well.

I'm not an Amir apologist. The dude has bias and imperfections. But I take him for what I feel he's worth (which for the most part I think is a net positive). But you are off base here Darin.

a second chuckle, thank you...i will be forever in your debt ;)

You're very welcome... I chuckle all the time when I read how HD-DVD folks try to make themselves believe "their" format will win. :D

Sigh...

Can we have a group hug now? :)

Good idea!

Good idea!
Deal - and once again there was peace in the land...

Sony Considers Producing LCD Parts in-house...

http://www.digitimes.com/MailNewsSites.asp?ID=27345&Cat=210

? Is their relationship with Samsung changing ?

You're very welcome... I chuckle all the time when I read how HD-DVD folks try to make themselves believe "their" format will win. :D

i chuckle at stuff "hd dvd folks" post and will challenge stuff that is outlandish but i must confess that i also secretly chuckle at "bd folks" since they appear to be so desparately trying to kill hd dvd ... if the bd win is so sure, why the frantic and frenetic postings ... to anyone with minimal psych training, the "running scared" group is very easy to spot and it is a vicious cycle of sorts b/c it further weakens their position.

Group Hug

http://www.ambridge.k12.pa.us/steeldrums/pictures/0506/leaf%20festival/Group%20Hug.JPG

I think everyone needs some milk and cookies here. :)

OT, B2B, that is exactly why the first hand real world experience of owning a player is more valuable that test driving it in a restricted environment.

I've done that at trade shows and in B&M stores to try out some of the Blu-ray products I did not buy, but I haven't endlessly criticized their failings in real world use or expressed amazement when actual owners could like a product even if it had flaws.

Its kinda silly to be a self proclaimed expert on the HD DVD players issues when you don't even own one. If you actually did, you would understand why those issues, while real are insignificant in most people's oponion to the qulaity of the picture and audio coming out of the device. Most HD DVD owners are satistified, becasue they feel they got what they paid for.

Most HD DVD owners are not stupid and are unaware of any propaganda, they like the machine because it performs where it counts, and it exceeds their expectations.

If you actually owned the HD A1 or HD XA1 or a clone, you would realize that in practical experience, the issues you so joyously proclaim are no big deal to most owners because they are rare or easy to work around and are minor compared to the fantastic experience of watching and listening to movies in the best consumer movie title format ever produced (along with Blu-ray). The HD DVD titles have been steady in coming out, and their quality has been consistently excellent.

The earlier issues with the first firmware were corrected to a large part with future updates and Toshiba seemed to be very understanding to user issues. 5.1 True HD support and better 720p playback were included. Things like excellent standard DVD upconversion were seen as surprises. Audio CDs sound fantastic.

Those issues you complain about, in practice don't amount to much. Most people never experience them, and when they do, its usually simple to correct. Most of the time taking the disc out and cleaning it works. If I had a borrowed disc or rented disc skipping, I take it out and clean it. No big deal.

On the other ergonomic issues, I have found through normal use that the remote works better for me as I have used it more. The audio confirmation of commands, and the generation understanding of how the player responds make it in real use a lot less problematic than one finds in a 15 minute session. When you spends hours with it, you find out and work around the quirks. You get into a routine and the startup (faster under later firmware IMHO) doesn't bother you anymore.

If you were a real user, instead of a detractor, you would understand.

Not to say, I personally won't upgrade to a second generation player, but thats just me, I can afford it and I'll consider that a bargain also, if it performs as well as my HD XA1 does, with faster response times. I'm sure I'll find a good home for my HD XA1, to someone who'll appreciate it for what it does, good and bad.

In short, it doesn't matter what the 1st generation HD DVD player issues were, those are already in the hands of satisfied users. For the price, most HD DVD owners found that their expectations were met. And that price was half of what the stand alone Blu-ray players are.

You learn how to use the remote, the response time is not perfect but bearable, and real issues are rare and easily correctable. Its not a mystery to those that have a HD DVD who are enjoying HD right now, why they are satisfied.

If you had real world experience in its use, you would understand why. :)

Like I said, I have been reading the HD-DVD player forum from day one when the A1 hit the shelves. I came close to getting one and maybe I would be one of those "happy faced" A1 owners had I not waited for further reviews, but as it stands right now I'm glad I passed. Good luck with your player and if you're happy with it, I'm happy you're happy.. ;)

b2b

Sony Considers Producing LCD Parts in-house...

http://www.digitimes.com/MailNewsSites.asp?ID=27345&Cat=210

? Is their relationship with Samsung changing ?

See? You do that all the time.

Like I said, I have been reading the HD-DVD player forum from day one when the A1 hit the shelves. I came close to getting one and maybe I would be one of those "happy faced" A1 owners had I not waited for further reviews, but as it stands right now I'm glad I passed. Good luck with your player and if you're happy with it, I'm happy you're happy.. ;)

b2b B2B, very seriously, here's an offer.

I am planning to upgrade to a HD XA2 as soon as they become available. My HD XA1 was a late production model with firmware 2.0 installed.

I bought it at a great price through Value Electronics. I'll sell it to you at a substantial discount from the substantial discount I received. Its been well cared for, even if it has a lot of HD mileage on it for the past couple months.

I'm not kidding here, I would send it to you at below the best price you could find one advertised, and it would be a great way for you to get and try HD DVD.

PM me or post here if you are interested.

When is trying to get to the Truth a personal crusade?

It's not. But if the method is cross-examination, lawyer-style, then this may not be the venue for it.

And the implication that Amir was offering Darin hush money smacks much more of leagalistic-style character assasination than it does of tryting to represent Truth, IMO.

2Channel : don't forget you are getting a highly edited and narated version of the facts.

like (the only relevant snippet from Chad’s post)

I take your bet Darin. What is more, I accept defeat already. Please let me know where to send the $7,500. I am serious. It is will be worth it to not have you engage in this kind of crusade against me.


to acknowledge defeat before the bet with the added comment where accepting the $ means that Darin won’t continue to point out the FUD and BS is more of a payout then a friendly bet

Of course you'd think that the only relevant information in an entire set of threads where Darin, Amir, and others have participated is represented in exactly 5 sentances.

Because one again, you ignore context.



"I shot him."

There. That's the entire testimony in the court case... is he guilty of murder or not?

What? Circumstances might matter? Additional facts? You mean the CONTEXT of that sentence might matter?

Well, I'll be...

B2B, very seriously, here's an offer.

I am planning to upgrade to a HD XA2 as soon as they become available. My HD XA1 was a late production model with firmware 2.0 installed.

I bought it at a great price through Value Electronics. I'll sell it to you at a substantial discount from the substantial discount I received. Its been well cared for, even if it has a lot of HD mileage on it for the past couple months.

I'm not kidding here, I would send it to you at below the best price you could find one advertised, and it would be a great way for you to get and try HD DVD.

PM me or post here if you are interested.

Well I'm not really in the market to buy into HD-DVD, but a reasonable payment for a short term usage could be discussed. That with something like Netflix could work..

b2b

remember when blockbuster used to rent vcr equipment? maybe they should start renting hd dvd/bd equipment ...

why a link. Here is the exact spec


now I guess if you are watching a silent movie with no audio while no menus or PiP then you don't need to :)

Yes, the flag is mandatory. And bing the good little flag that it is, the playback device can use it to telecine the 24p stream to 60i and sync to other streams.

Now.. we have been saying all along that the flags are mandtory. What we are asking for is the cocumentation that backs up you assertion that 60i ouput is mandated for players in hte HD DVD spec.

My car includes engine care instructions for extreme cold weather operation. That doesn't mean I'll ever use them in Florida.

What is pathetic is the thoughts of having to suffer with the wretched spawn of DVD for another 10 years in the form of HD-DVD. :eek: Thanks to places like AVS, I don't have to buy and experiment with equipment anymore. I already have enough examples of new and exciting "technology" littering the garage and in storage boxes. ;)

After years of paying to be a "crash test dummy" for companies to debug their products, I have decided to let others do that work for me. Thank you for your support Tom... :)

b2b

Exactly!

I had a movie nite for some friends to watch MI:3 in full 1080p on a 133" screen, and the comments were "Wretched!", and "Ugh... is this somehow related to DVD??".

It was horrible.

http://www.technewsworld.com/story/LFTZvRzpCeV2GH/Vista-Hits-Sony-Kills-Blu-ray-the-Birth-of-Megatasking.xhtml

...no comment :)

It's not. But if the method is cross-examination, lawyer-style, then this may not be the venue for it.

And the implication that Amir was offering Darin hush money smacks much more of leagalistic-style character assasination than it does of tryting to represent Truth, IMO.
Great post that accurately summarizes this whole sub-plot.

http://www.technewsworld.com/story/LFTZvRzpCeV2GH/Vista-Hits-Sony-Kills-Blu-ray-the-Birth-of-Megatasking.xhtml

...no comment :)

I have a comment: that article is idiotic.

A 20% attach rate is all well and good... and arbitrary... but when you're expecting a run of 200,000, you're expecting a run of 200,000. So it's 200k vs 600k (which I think is a low estimate), not some arbitrary "It's selling out = 20% attach rate..." statement.

I think the HD-DVD add-on is doing great. I also think that Rob Enderle is terrible at his job.

Exactly!

I had a movie nite for some friends to watch MI:3 in full 1080p on a 133" screen, and the comments were "Wretched!", and "Ugh... is this somehow related to DVD??".

It was horrible.

Like most HD-DVD supporters, their interest in optical disc technology stops at the latest disc they can ogle over... DVD had its day and it's time to move into the 21st century with Blu-Ray as something more than a simple "disc player" technology.. ;)

b2b

Yes, the flag is mandatory. And bing the good little flag that it is, the playback device can use it to telecine the 24p stream to 60i and sync to other streams.

Now.. we have been saying all along that the flags are mandtory. What we are asking for is the cocumentation that backs up you assertion that 60i ouput is mandated for players in hte HD DVD spec.

My car includes engine care instructions for extreme cold weather operation. That doesn't mean I'll ever use them in Florida.

The XA2 will be out "any month" now, so then you can see if 24p comes out the back of the box.. :)

b2b

You're very welcome... I chuckle all the time when I read how HD-DVD folks try to make themselves believe "their" format will win. :D

I chuckle at people who have BD and are experiencing a sub-par HD movie experience.

DVD had its day and it's time to move into the 21st century with Blu-Ray as something more than a simple "disc player" technology.. ;)

b2b
Do as I say not as I do, eh? :D

I chuckle at people who have BD and are experiencing a sub-par HD movie experience.

Agreed. Those people should be stepping up to films like Black Hawk Down and Kingdom of Heaven.

Like most HD-DVD supporters, their interest in optical disc technology stops at the latest disc they can ogle over... DVD had its day and it's time to move into the 21st century with Blu-Ray as something more than a simple "disc player" technology..

You know, with all due respect b2b, I think it's time you stop talking about any side's "supporters" until you become one yourself. You want to fight the Blu-ray fight like you do, you should own a Blu-ray player and some movies.

Why don't you move into the 21st century before telling the rest of us to do that.

Like most HD-DVD supporters, their interest in optical disc technology stops at the latest disc they can ogle over... DVD had its day and it's time to move into the 21st century with Blu-Ray as something more than a simple "disc player" technology.. ;)

b2b

Yer telling me, brother!

I had a friend of mine with 2 new 500 GB perpidicular-recording SATA-II hard drives in his computer.. and I almost vomited. Talk about seriously old technology that's only been refined through improvements.

I couldn't wait to leave...

The XA2 will be out "any month" now, so then you can see if 24p comes out the back of the box.. :)

b2b

Yes Anthony B2B... a single implementation will prove difinitively if the spec allows for it.

Good job. Have a treat.

Do as I say not as I do, eh? :D

I've got 8 DVD players (maybe more, lost count..) so yea, I speak from experence that it's time to move on.. ;)

b2b

Do as I say not as I do, eh? :D

As they say, "Those that own can, do, those that can't, criticize teach!."

reopened with some concern:

if the thread continues to get out of hand.....

if the thread continues to get out of hand...

http://www.gizmodo.com/gadgets/gadgets/nonlethal-gun-makes-you-wish-you-were-shot-with-bfg-219370.php

:)

Agreed. Those people should be stepping up to films like Black Hawk Down and Kingdom of Heaven.

Indeed. I can't believe how blatantly partisan some people are, to the point of defying common sense. Do they have a stake in the outcome or is it merely justification of their chosen "side" in the format war?

There is no qualitative PQ advantage to inherent to either side since they both have the potential to deliver the best 1080 picture. A brief scan of the "tier" threads in both software forums show plenty of outstanding reference quality titles and worthless barely-above DVD transfers for both formats.

BD? I'm talking The Fifth Element and House of Flying Daggers... Blech! HD-DVD? I'll stick with my Criterion Collection DVD release of Spartacus, thanks... Full Metal Jacket? Traffic? :(

Black Hawk Down, Kingdom of Heaven, and Tears of the Sun match anything out there by HD-DVD (I am rather fond of Serenity and King Kong as my personal references so far) and MI3 in both formats is a PQ wash, nullifying the codec as any single all important savior for PQ awesomeness.

Black Hawk Down, Kingdom of Heaven, and Tears of the Sun match anything out there by HD-DVD (I am rather fond of Serenity and King Kong as my personal references so far) and MI3 in both formats is a PQ wash, nullifying the codec as any single all important savior for PQ awesomeness.

Maybe PQ/AQ-wise...but they get that by sacrificing a ton of extras.

With HD DVD you get both the quality AND all the extras.

That's what i'm waiting for BD to accomplish.

if the thread continues to get out of hand...

http://www.gizmodo.com/gadgets/gadgets/nonlethal-gun-makes-you-wish-you-were-shot-with-bfg-219370.php

:)
Black-And-Blu-Ray ! :)

P.S. - That's about the gun, not anything else! :)

... it's time to move into the 21st century with Blu-Ray as something more than a simple "disc player" technology.. ;)



What exactly about Blu-Ray is more than "a simple disc player technology"?

What exactly about Blu-Ray is more than "a simple disc player technology"?
Sony Now Shipping 50GB Dual Layer Blu-Ray Disc in the U.S.
http://www.physorg.com/news84472894.html

If you haven't noticed, BD is for more than "movie" players..

b2b

http://www.physorg.com/news84472894.html

If you haven't noticed, BD is for more than "movie" players..

b2b

Because it has recordable media? I guess VHS was more than a simple video tape technology then?

Because it has recordable media? I guess VHS was more than a simple video tape technology then?

Compared to the current DVD recordable fiasco, VHS was a highly reliable and functional consumer technology. Trying to get a recordable DVD to play on any given DVD player is a crap shoot.

b2b

Trying to get a recordable DVD to play on any given DVD player is a crap shoot.


The folks in the HTPC forum seem to managing.

Even if Blu-Ray brings a more reliable way to record on optical discs, that would be perfecting a several years old technology not the entrance to a brave new world.

The folks in the HTPC forum seem to managing.

Even if Blu-Ray brings a more reliable way to record on optical discs, that would be perfecting a several years old technology not the entrance to a brave new world.

50GB BD media and drives shipping now vs 15GB HD-DVD shipping... ?????

That sounds pretty brave to me.. ;)

b2b

Compared to the current DVD recordable fiasco, VHS was a highly reliable and functional consumer technology. Trying to get a recordable DVD to play on any given DVD player is a crap shoot.

b2b

would you call it a fiasco that sony's own bd player can't presently play recordable bd media?

i play recordable dvds (any format, except -RAM) in all of the players in my home, even a player from way back in 2000 :)

would you call it a fiasco that sony's own bd player can't presently play recordable bd media?

i play recordable dvds (any format, except -RAM) in all of the players in my home, even a player from way back in 2000 :)

If the Sony stays that way (without a FW fix) yes..

On your second comment, consider yourself lucky (like the owners of glitch free A1s)... ;)

http://www.videohelp.com/dvdmedia

b2b

If the Sony stays that way (without a FW fix) yes..

On your second comment, consider yourself lucky (like the owners of glitch free A1s)... ;)

http://www.videohelp.com/dvdmedia

b2b

sony itself has just stated that they don't like this "firmware" upgrade situation; firmware upgrades are just coming into popular existence...or maybe not too popular. the fiasco in dvd world, if it existed as you state, could have easily been rectified via firmware upgrade (still can if they really want to...but they would rather sell you a new player). really has nothing to do with the "new" formats...


on another note, i was just reading about a ps4 in the 2010 time-frame??!!?? what happened to next-gen console/player for the next 10 years? :eek:

The difference being that the x86 stuff worked really well for the may uses it was expected to do. With DVD the only part of it that ever worked well was stamping out ROM discs. All of the recordable versions (except maybe RAM) were pure crap and will be the same for HD-DVD. Why do you think none of the CE companies are supporting HD-DVD ?? It's because the technology has no upside for profit in complementary products. Building players is a dead end profit cycle just like the current DVD.

b2b

i just remembered i wanted to comment on this but couldn't as the thread was closed for a "time-out" ...

so you are all for bd because it provides "upside for profit in complementary products" as opposed to providing us with the next gen movie-viewing experience?

product tie-ins are such a pain in the arse and just about always end up being kluges or cluster-fracks ;)

i know one thing for sure, i'm not here posting so that ce companies/studios can maximize their profit off of me :D

There is no qualitative PQ advantage to inherent to either side since they both have the potential to deliver the best 1080 picture. A brief scan of the "tier" threads in both software forums show plenty of outstanding reference quality titles and worthless barely-above DVD transfers for both formats.
I think if both sides of the supporters agreed to this, there will be a lot more friendly discussions. IMO, codec talk is past its time. It's a wash either way.

It is now all up to the studios, and how much they care about quality.

so you are all for bd because it provides "upside for profit in complementary products" as opposed to providing us with the next gen movie-viewing experience?

...
i know one thing for sure, i'm not here posting so that ce companies/studios can maximize their profit off of me :DI don't know about b2b, but one of the reason I back BD is that due to multiple usage scenarios, there are less chances that the format may die [And this was before I even considered HD-DVD back in the days]. It is a safe bet, IMO. Of course, this is only one of the reasons for my choice.

About CE companies making profit off of me, I think it is a give-and-take. They all want to make profit. What I am saying is that this aspect is not part of my criteria. They will find one way or the other (or sooner or later as it may apply!) to make profit off of us.

I

...

About CE companies making profit off of me, I think it is a give-and-take. They all want to make profit. What I am saying is that this aspect is not part of my criteria. They will find one way or the other (or sooner or later as it may apply!) to make profit off of us.

that is like a universal absolute :D

How to Capture and Backup HD-DVD Movies with an Xbox 360 + HD DVD Drive + PC
(http://www.ehomeupgrade.com/entry/3317/how_to_capture)

Oh boy.

Gary

that is like a universal absolute :DTell me about it! :)

How to Capture and Backup HD-DVD Movies with an Xbox 360 + HD DVD Drive + PC
(http://www.ehomeupgrade.com/entry/3317/how_to_capture)

Oh boy.

Gary

i had scanned that story earlier and thought it was a tongue-in-cheek type of story given all the hardware/resources you would need to do it...6GB/s capture rate, a card capable of capturing HD componont connection (not cheap last time i looked)...anything is possible if you put your mind to it...

i don't think they'll enable the flag for that reason, doubtful that anyone would/could invest that much money to be able to capture hd sources using component inputs...

How to Capture and Backup HD-DVD Movies with an Xbox 360 + HD DVD Drive + PC
(http://www.ehomeupgrade.com/entry/3317/how_to_capture)

Oh boy.

GaryUnless there is a good real-time compression solution for hi-def content, this will not be a good solution for normal users, IMO. Also, just to point out, one can replace HD-DVD with Blu-ray above. I think, very few people will (or can) take this route.

But your point about ICT is important from piracy point of view. Since DVDs are still around, this is not a big issue right now because it is much easier to pirate DVDs. Because of replication barriers, studios are relatively protected against hi-def piracy so far. Overall, I am still hopeful that ICT will not be used in near future. I don't know what others think.

BTW, it looks like the G2 Tosh A2 will be hitting before the holiday season...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9084182&&#post9084182

50GB BD media and drives shipping now vs 15GB HD-DVD shipping... ?????

That sounds pretty brave to me.. ;)

b2b

So the fact that BD has burners available now and HD has burners coming in the future makes HD outdated 20th century technology and BD revolutionary 21st century technology. Sounds more evolutionary than revolutionary to me.

On second thought... Using your logic wouldn't the fact that HD has PiP and interactivity now, but BD will have it in the future, make HD the 21st century technology?

Oh boy.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9076894&&#post9076894

If the original bet Amir was making (regarding BD50's) had nothing to do with your bet, then the only reason I can see why you even included it was to make it sound like Amir was the one who was extending the bet to you, as if offering a bribe.

That clearly was not he case, so you shouldn't have included it.It is pretty simple actually. The reason to quote his offer of a bet to somebody else was it showed that he was willing to bet when he thought the odds were in his favor. There was no reason it needed to be on the same subject and the guess that it was to make it sound like he was extending a bet to me is way out there, although I understand that you were just trying to think of a reason I included that.

I remember that I offered a couple of bets and Amir didn't even say which one he wanted to pay on or what any reason would be for losing the bet. I think we can agree that isn't really a bet.
Perhaps considering the context of the "bet" would do you well.I have considered it. As well as his comments maybe a month or two earlier implying that I owed them something after he approved one of his employees bringing an expensive piece of equipment to my house that I got to see. Although I had been asked by the employee if he could bring it over to compare to my projector so he could see them together, to help him make a decision about what to get for his theater (which I was helping advise him about). At that time I was also offered the chance to borrow that expensive projector for a couple of days, but didn't take it. You can decide to make of that what you will. I respect that you have your opinion based on things, but I have definitely considered context to these things.

--Darin

AP article: Time Warner CEO weighs in ...


Parsons: DVD Format War 'Unfortunate'
Tuesday December 5, 4:56 pm ET
Time Warner CEO Dick Parsons Calls War Over DVD Formats 'Unfortunate'

NEW YORK (AP) -- Dick Parsons, the CEO of Time Warner Inc., said Tuesday that an ongoing war between competing formats for next-generation DVDs was leading to confusion in the marketplace.

"The format war is unfortunate," Parsons told an investor conference in New York sponsored by Credit Suisse, referring to the conflict between Sony Corp.'s Blu-ray format and the competing HD DVD platform championed by Toshiba Corp.

Warner Bros., a major Hollywood studio owned by Time Warner, puts out movies in both formats. Parsons said the conflict was confusing to consumers, and that major companies couldn't fully back a single format, which would drive costs down.

Parsons also said he didn't expect Sony's highly anticipated PlayStation 3, which can also play movies in the Blu-ray format, to have a big impact on video viewing habits, saying people were more likely to use the consoles for playing games.

Parsons also said that the release schedules for movies -- which are known as "windows" -- could be affected if current efforts to allow customers to download movies and then "burn" them on DVDs gain traction.

However, he said that the so-called download-to-burn idea, which is the subject of much discussion in the entertainment industry, must be worked out carefully with existing distributors of movies such as retailers in order to succeed.

Andy Parsons, once again... (Whatever happened to Mark Knox?).

Parsons: DVD Format War 'Unfortunate' (http://news.moneycentral.msn.com/provider/providerarticle.aspx?feed=AP&Date=20061205&ID=6251270)

"The format war is unfortunate," Parsons told an investor conference in New York sponsored by Credit Suisse, referring to the conflict between Sony Corp.'s Blu-ray format and the competing HD DVD platform championed by Toshiba Corp.

Warner Bros., a major Hollywood studio owned by Time Warner, puts out movies in both formats. Parsons said the conflict was confusing to consumers, and that major companies couldn't fully back a single format, which would drive costs down.

Parsons also said he didn't expect Sony's highly anticipated PlayStation 3, which can also play movies in the Blu-ray format, to have a big impact on video viewing habits, saying people were more likely to use the consoles for playing games.

Parsons also said he didn't expect Sony's highly anticipated PlayStation 3, which can also play movies in the Blu-ray format, to have a big impact on video viewing habits, saying people were more likely to use the consoles for playing games.

Parson's credibility questioned by BR supporters in 5........4..........3..........2........1

I think if both sides of the supporters agreed to this, there will be a lot more friendly discussions. IMO, codec talk is past its time. It's a wash either way.

It is now all up to the studios, and how much they care about quality.


Ahh, but we don't agree on this. ;)

Here's an excerpt from a BD movie (Kung Fu Hustle - 2004) that was reviewed recently, and got a great review for PQ (4.5/5)

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_13_4/mrg-140-november-2006-part-5.html#Kung%20Fu%20Hustle

It really amazes me how inconsistent Sony Pictures has been with their BD (Blu-ray Disc) releases. I really don't know what to expect from title to title. I saw this on DVD twice but didn't get the chance to see it theatrically (limited run), so I don't have a lot to compare to.

This release looks outstanding though. There are moments when the image can look slightly soft (not counting the obvious effects work), but depth and detail are solid throughout most of the film. Contrast is also quite good, and that helps a lot with the depth. Fine film grain is noticeable in most of the backgrounds, but it is never intrusive. Overall, one of the best releases yet from Sony Pictures.

Hurray for Sony, they didn't pull a Talladega Nights on this title!

Andy Parsons, once again... (Whatever happened to Mark Knox?).That looks like it was from Dick Parsons, not to be confused with Andy Parsons.

--Darin

Parson's credibility questioned by BR supporters in 5........4..........3..........2........1In fact it is quite good to here that a studio doesn't have much expectation from PS3! Now everyone can relax whether PS3 as a BD player is a success or not! :D

Ahh, but we don't agree on this. ;)

Here's an excerpt from a BD movie (Kung Fu Hustle - 2004) that was reviewed recently, and got a great review for PQ (4.5/5)

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_13_4/mrg-140-november-2006-part-5.html#Kung%20Fu%20Hustle

It really amazes me how inconsistent Sony Pictures has been with their BD (Blu-ray Disc) releases. I really don't know what to expect from title to title. I saw this on DVD twice but didn't get the chance to see it theatrically (limited run), so I don't have a lot to compare to.

This release looks outstanding though. There are moments when the image can look slightly soft (not counting the obvious effects work), but depth and detail are solid throughout most of the film. Contrast is also quite good, and that helps a lot with the depth. Fine film grain is noticeable in most of the backgrounds, but it is never intrusive. Overall, one of the best releases yet from Sony Pictures.

Hurray for Sony, they didn't pull a Talladega Nights on this title!If you want to bash Sony Pictures, go for it (I will try to support you)! But why do you think this is a codec issue? That was the whole point of my earlier post. Inconsistency from Sony releases just go one step further in showing what I meant.

[Edit: Not that you are bashing Sony! :)]

So Dick Parsons thinks the format war is unfortunate. Didn't he force Warner to abandon their original plan to release on HD only? If he had stayed out of it, this war would be just about over now.

The XA2 will be out "any month" now, so then you can see if 24p comes out the back of the box.. :)

b2b

Question for you b2b. Do you see any reason why Microsoft couldn't implement 1080p24 on the add-on?

That looks like it was from Dick Parsons, not to be confused with Andy Parsons.

--DarinSorry bout that - lazy reading...My apologies. Just assumed it was Andy at it again...

Time-Warner, saying that the PS3 is a non-factor...Wonder what that's all about? Is it possible WB is having second thoughts?

Time-Warner, saying that the PS3 is a non-factor...Wonder what that's all about? Is it possible WB is having second thoughts?It's always possible. It will be interesting to get Steve Nickerson's (from Warner) take from a talk at CES.

--Darin

well, it looks like they may have delayed poseidon to coincide with a bd release as well...avoiding appearance of partiality?

http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/Warner/Exclusive_HD_Content/Disc_Announcements/Poseidon,_Scooby-Doo_Lead_Warner_January_Blu-ray,_HD_DVD_Lineup/375

well, it looks like they may have delayed poseidon to coincide with a bd release as well...avoiding appearance of partiality?

http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/Warner/Exclusive_HD_Content/Disc_Announcements/Poseidon,_Scooby-Doo_Lead_Warner_January_Blu-ray,_HD_DVD_Lineup/375Except that it doesn't look like Poseidon is coming out on Blu-ray that day.

--Darin

It is pretty simple actually. The reason to quote his offer of a bet to somebody else was it showed that he was willing to bet when he thought the odds were in his favor. There was no reason it needed to be on the same subject and the guess that it was to make it sound like he was extending a bet to me is way out there, although I understand that you were just trying to think of a reason I included that.

Well Darin, you brought it up in context of the "full disclosure if you are a paid employee, a relative of somebody in the business, etc..." post. In other words, if you have some reason to be influenced.

To have you highlight a bet Amir extended to someone else, and then imply that his offer to immediately concede to different bet (when the reason he stated was to get you off his back) needed to be disclose as if he was attempting to buy some influence with you is not "way out there" as you state.

For somebody who is as careful in picking apart other's words as you are, you must realize that you were painting a particular picture there with how you brought that up, smilies or not (as you later mentioned).

I remember that I offered a couple of bets and Amir didn't even say which one he wanted to pay on or what any reason would be for losing the bet. I think we can agree that isn't really a bet.
I have considered it. As well as his comments maybe a month or two earlier implying that I owed them something after he approved one of his employees bringing an expensive piece of equipment to my house that I got to see. Although I had been asked by the employee if he could bring it over to compare to my projector so he could see them together, to help him make a decision about what to get for his theater (which I was helping advise him about). At that time I was also offered the chance to borrow that expensive projector for a couple of days, but didn't take it. You can decide to make of that what you will. I respect that you have your opinion based on things, but I have definitely considered context to these things.

--Darin

You are right in one respect: it wasn't really a bet... it was an offer to let you "have" whatever argument you wanted to have at the time, in order to stop the harassment. And might as you like to say it wasn't harassment, there were many posts here that categorized what you were doing as EXACTLY that.

If you have some private context to consider (the equipment loan), then keep it private. If you want to make an implication regarding somebody's character, then make the issues public.

As much as you might like to consider the context of Amir's offer, I'll say this: over and over again people have mentioned to you that you are taking your "quest" with Amir too far. And time and time again I've seen you miss that point entirely and say "But, don't you want to know <x>??". All of which leads me to belive that the context you AREN'T considering is: the WAY you say something often times has more impact than WHAT you say. That is why suspect that many of us saw Amir's "bet" offer as "Will you shut up and leave me alone now?" whereas you seem to think it must have been nefarious.

enough of this bickering: move on please

Been away for a few days, and haven't the energy to find out where this thread has gone meanwhile. Stray thoughts while on leave:

- Sony may be constraining supply to mask a lack of demand (Why doesn't anyone else have a problem with producing blue lasers?) Not to mention they may be trying to limit the losses on their bottom line.

- How many times have you seen a disaster promoted (Katugari) to disguise a major mistake?

- Did we just hear an announcement of PS4?

Except that it doesn't look like Poseidon is coming out on Blu-ray that day.

--Darin

hah, maybe i'm just being clarevoyant? ;)

sorry, my bad...the headline and a quick glance threw me off...now it makes sense why i didn't see the bd specs for poseidong jump out at me :D


on another topic, i've tried not to weigh in on this one, but as to the accusation that amir tried to buy your silence/support, i didn't see it as that at all...i saw it more in line with what scaesare has been saying...FWIW

Here is that online posting analysis breakdown between the two formats...

Consumer Opinions & Trends Report (http://www.cymfony.com/Blu-ray.pdf)

Interesting...

Been away for a few days, and haven't the energy to find out where this thread has gone meanwhile. Stray thoughts while on leave:

- Sony may be constraining supply to mask a lack of demand (Why doesn't anyone else have a problem with producing blue lasers?) Not to mention they may be trying to limit the losses on their bottom line.

- How many times have you seen a disaster promoted to disguise a major mistake?

- Did we just hear an announcement of PS4?


i don't think there is anyone else out there trying to fabricate as many blue lasers as is required for shipping as many ps3's as forecasted...

Here is that online posting analysis breakdown between the two formats...

Consumer Opinions & Trends Report (http://www.cymfony.com/Blu-ray.pdf)

Interesting...

didn't we already discredit this source...after all, had they included b2b's postings the numbers would be greatly skewed in favor of bd ;)

seriously, what internet sites/sources did they analyze to come up with these statistics?

As much as you might like to consider the context of Amir's offer, I'll say this: over and over again people have mentioned to you that you are taking your "quest" with Amir too far. And time and time again I've seen you miss that point entirely and say "But, don't you want to know <x>??". All of which leads me to belive that the context you AREN'T considering is: the WAY you say something often times has more impact than WHAT you say. That is why suspect that many of us saw Amir's "bet" offer as "Will you shut up and leave me alone now?" whereas you seem to think it must have been nefarious.
Darin, I agree with this. I believe both you and Amir are honorable people. I look forward to any conclusions you may have, but I do believe you (unintentionally) have made it personal and emotional rather than technical.

enough of this bickering: move on please

Point taken. Will do.

didn't we already discredit this source...after all, had they included b2b's postings the numbers would be greatly skewed in favor of bd ;)

seriously, what internet sites/sources did they analyze to come up with these statistics?

Probably AVSforum ;)

If you want to bash Sony Pictures, go for it (I will try to support you)! But why do you think this is a codec issue? That was the whole point of my earlier post. Inconsistency from Sony releases just go one step further in showing what I meant.

[Edit: Not that you are bashing Sony! :)]

Yes, I'm hard on Sony, but I look at it as tough love. If the consumer doesn't push them to do better, who will?

It's hard to describe until you see it, but it is telling that the deleted scenes on this disc, which are also presented in full 1080p and 2.35:1 widescreen, look much better.

http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/talladeganights.html

I've read other posts (and looked at photos) comparing the quality of identical scenes in a feature to its trailer, and you can see that the trailer does indeed look better.

This negates the argument that it's the master at fault. What I suspect is that these particular trailers or deleted scenes are encoded at a higher Mpeg2 bit rate than the feature. I don't see any other logical explanation. If Sony was using a codec that delivered great PQ at lower bit rates, I don't believe they would run into these particular problems. I can understand old titles that haven't been remastered looking bad, but I don't think there's any excuse for new titles. The masters should be very clean on new titles. If someone has a different theory, I'm interested in hearing it.

HD DVD internal ROM is coming at 38,850 Yen this Dec to Japan
http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20061206/buffalo.htm
It is Buffalo OEM by Toshiba and should be same SD-H802A(the one in add-on).

Well, 18 days have passed since the launch of the PS3 and 19 days are left until Christmas. This seems like a good time to review how things are going.

http://nexgenwars.com/

Total Sales - World Wide

Xbox360 - 8,029,357
Wii - 1,192,141
PS3 - 379,281

Sales in the last 18 days - World Wide

Wii - 1,192,141
Xbox360 - 1,000,000+ (approximately)
PS3 - 379,281

Sony promissed 400,000 PS3s in the US for the launch. They haven't sold that many globally yet. As a reminder, the PS2 launched in March 2000 in Japan and sold 900,000 systems in one weekend. One thing is clear, Sony is having major production problems, and I have no doubt that it's the blue laser supply problem.

It's still not too late. Thare are 19 days left until Christmas and if they can get a massive number of units out on the street soon, they can still be in the race. If things continue as they have been going, then I'm confident that Sony has indeed lost the Game console crown. The only question will be if they've lost it to Microsoft or Nintendo. My opinion is that Microsoft will win the crown in the US while Nintendo will win the crown in Japan.

If Sony can't respond now, they will miss their most critical window for sales volume, and risk more and more customers moving on to other options out of frustration or loss of interest.

More tellingly, the online interest in the PS3 dropped 15 percent the week after its debut, and while interest has also dropped for the Xbox 360, the Wii is still holding steady, according to the report.

http://www.fiercegamebiz.com/story/amazon-xbox-360-discount-spikes-interest/2006-12-05

Make no mistake, this will be a huge blow to BD, as this will be the failure of the trojan horse strategy. I believe the CEO of Time Warner already sees the writing on the wall.

Parsons also said he didn't expect Sony's highly anticipated PlayStation 3, which can also play movies in the Blu-ray format, to have a big impact on video viewing habits, saying people were more likely to use the consoles for playing games.

If the Xbox360 does indeed become dominant in the US, the market momentum behind it will shift into high gear. This in turn will provide a very large installed base of people who have the option to adopt HD-DVD at low cost.

If the Wii dominates in the US as well as Japan, that still places the Xbox360 in 2nd place, with the PS3 trailing in 3rd place. This is still a net positive for HD-DVD, though not as strong as having the dominant installed base of a 1st place position.

Sony's off to a shaky start, and granted, I too thought "They've blown it" the moment I heard Kaz Hirai utter the words, "Five-hundred ninety-nine U.S. dollars" - but I think it's still too early to count them out.

They've got to get shipments moving though, because after the holidays, a $500 game console isn't going to move, especially with the upcoming dry spell in games.

I wonder how bad their production problems really are. If the European launch gets postponed again, that's more goodwill Sony will be burning.

With all the bad PS3 press, combined with the allegedly brisk sales of 360 and Wii, perhaps devs will begin reconsidering their allegiances.

There are some marketing guys I read pretty religiously, and I think they'd say that PS3 will fail because of its convergence nature. The "PlayStation" brand is known as a game console and you just can't sell a $500/600 game console, no matter what other functions it has.

If Sony can straighten up and fly right, keeping devs and exclusives long enough til they can get that price down (but Lord, how long will that take?), they'll gain traction and pull through. But it would seem there's a finite window of opportunity, and it won't last long.

PS3 may just be a great idea that doesn't work.

Yes, the flag is mandatory. And bing the good little flag that it is, the playback device can use it to telecine the 24p stream to 60i and sync to other streams.

Now.. we have been saying all along that the flags are mandtory. What we are asking for is the cocumentation that backs up you assertion that 60i ouput is mandated for players in hte HD DVD spec.

My car includes engine care instructions for extreme cold weather operation. That doesn't mean I'll ever use them in Florida.



scaesare: I said PROCESSING not OUTPUT. The processing is the most important. HD DVD allows 1080p on disk because it takes less space. BUt then the player must use the flags to turn it into i for synching of audio and video. Then the pl;ayer can change it back to p for output.

I chuckle at people who have BD and are experiencing a sub-par HD movie experience.

what do you want, they most likely bought the HD DVD player first :)

Yes, I'm hard on Sony, but I look at it as tough love. If the consumer doesn't push them to do better, who will?Looking at some of the reviews of Sony releases, it is justified. My point is that it has to be separate from blaming it on the codec.

It's hard to describe until you see it, but it is telling that the deleted scenes on this disc, which are also presented in full 1080p and 2.35:1 widescreen, look much better.

http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/talladeganights.html
...I didn't see any mention of any MPEG2 artifacts by the reviewer. The earlier releases had such artifacts (e.g., House of Flying Daggers). This review is very subjective. "awful contrast", "flat" transfer, etc. All of the negatives may very well be in the source.

I've read other posts (and looked at photos) comparing the quality of identical scenes in a feature to its trailer, and you can see that the trailer does indeed look better.If there are no artifacts, then the 'looked better' is open to interpretation (e.g., the trailer may be artificially jazzed up to make it attractive).

If Sony made a choice to apply some sort of filtering before encoding, then that can be a problem, and that would be a serious allegation -- within a context, of course. And if true, no one would defend that. I haven't seen anyone suggesting that. The review was of BD50 version, so I doubt there was any need. Also, the deleted scenes may have gone through different processing (I have seen such examples on DVDs). But this is all conjecture. This is the reason I don't like to talk about the codec now. Unless you can see the master, you can not prove anything if there are no artifacts (look at Darin's poll regarding visual transparency, and then look at the responses).

Bottomline(s): I am for criticizing studios that output bad movies on hi-def; I want to move on as far as codec talk is concerned. Unless I see compression artifacts in new movies, MPEG2 is not on my hit-list. There are more things that worry me on BD side than the choice of MPEG2. Fortunately, since I don't plan to buy HD-DVD, I only worry about Blu-ray. (does that mean I only worry 34.56%? :) )

scaesare: I said PROCESSING not OUTPUT. The processing is the most important. HD DVD allows 1080p on disk because it takes less space. BUt then the player must use the flags to turn it into i for synching of audio and video. Then the pl;ayer can change it back to p for output.

I give up.

Looking at some of the reviews of Sony releases, it is justified. My point is that it has to be separate from blaming it on the codec.

I didn't see any mention of any MPEG2 artifacts by the reviewer. The earlier releases had such artifacts (e.g., House of Flying Daggers). This review is very subjective. "awful contrast", "flat" transfer, etc. All of the negatives may very well be in the source.

If there are no artifacts, then the 'looked better' is open to interpretation (e.g., the trailer may be artificially jazzed up to make it attractive).

If Sony made a choice to apply some sort of filtering before encoding, then that can be a problem, and that would be a serious allegation -- within a context, of course. And if true, no one would defend that. I haven't seen anyone suggesting that. The review was of BD50 version, so I doubt there was any need. Also, the deleted scenes may have gone through different processing (I have seen such examples on DVDs). But this is all conjecture. This is the reason I don't like to talk about the codec now. Unless you can see the master, you can not prove anything if there are no artifacts (look at Darin's poll regarding visual transparency, and then look at the responses).

Bottomline(s): I am for criticizing studios that output bad movies on hi-def; I want to move on as far as codec talk is concerned. Unless I see compression artifacts in new movies, MPEG2 is not on my hit-list. There are more things that worry me on BD side than the choice of MPEG2. Fortunately, since I don't plan to buy HD-DVD, I only worry about Blu-ray. (does that mean I only worry 34.56%? :) )

I agree... mostly. However there are always possibilities. For one, a codec that is bitstarved usually starts eating away at the shadow details first, this could cause a reduction in contrast - which can lead to "flatter" images. Recall when HD-DVD first launched that people were commenting how some HD-DVD titles appeared more 3D even on lower res projectors, that black level and shadow details had improved etc. But yes, we just don't know enough. So I'm not going to bother thinking anymore on it.

On another note, I saw my first BD demo in Australia over the weekend. Sammy player into Sammy 1080p LCD playing "Into the Blue". I could see the extra detail, but most people just walked on past if not for the fact that the store had the surround setup going and the movie had Jessica Alba in it. Nobody commented on the new tech even though some store staff were hanging around anticipating excitement. As the credits rolled, people continued shopping.

Cheers...
Duy-Khang Hoang

I give up.May be I can help.

Your post:



no Ben, it requires all work on the player all internal processing be done in 60i


Would you please post a document that specifies this?

There's a difference between mandating the flags that allow 60i output must be present and mandating that the output must be 60i.

Thanks.

So, Anthony produced the snippet (I think that was more of a white paper than the spec). ...Anyway, I think you are using the term output, and Anthony is using the term processing. That much is clear. I don't know what your definition of output is (this discussion is several pages old, so I have my own definition mixed up!).

If a player needs to output 24p, it cannot be done strictly following the spec: Decoder will have to ignore the flags and output 24p (let's call it stage1 output), which will then somehow get PiP'ed by secondary stream (which may or may not be 24p). I guess the conflict is that according to the spec, 'stage1' output must be 60i in 60Hz region.

I am trying to understand which part you disagree with (since I took part in this discussion earlier). Are you saying that flags can be ignored and still comply with the spec? Nobody is saying 24p is impossible. I haven't looked at the actual specs yet, so please let us know if this interpretation is wrong.

I agree... mostly. However there are always possibilities. For one, a codec that is bitstarved usually starts eating away at the shadow details first, this could cause a reduction in contrast - which can lead to "flatter" images. Recall when HD-DVD first launched that people were commenting how some HD-DVD titles appeared more 3D even on lower res projectors, that black level and shadow details had improved etc. But yes, we just don't know enough. So I'm not going to bother thinking anymore on it.Interesting. This can be easily checked. I should be able to do that in a week when I get my PS3.

I agree with your second paragraph. Lack of interest in Hi-def formats is a big concern. Niche products don't have long life in general. That's why I worry. I don't want to be stuck with internet downloads; not yet. I like shiny discs.

If HD-DVD add-on and PS3 cannot do it, then what will?

Can you name the "more than five" PS3-specific games that were on sale at the launch - or even today?I don't disagree that there were only five exclusive PS3 games at launch, but that what you said was wrong since you stated there were only 5 PS3 games at launch (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9076672&&#post9076672).


Everyone here pretty much accepts that VC1 is the current reference benchmark for quality.Everyone accepts that at the moment VC-1 is the most efficient video codec being used for the two HD formats. The efficiency makes it easier to achieve higher quality based on the capacity of the discs used, but in and of itself a video codec does not guarantee a certain level of quality.


So I'm making a point on the codecs. Hell, if Sony decided to use VC1, I wouldn't be HALF the problem I am right now...So does this mean you would still bash Sony if they started using MPEG-4 AVC HP instead?

I havent seen Ice Age 2 yet, I put it away for a stocking stuffer for my daughter. But seriously its an animation, it autta looking friggin incredible in high def. If it doesnt theres a big problem.I agree that CGI movies are easier to compress than live action movies, but I think Fox still did a good job in terms of encoding it.


My point is if were going to make comparisons between formats lets do it with something a little more releastic other then cartoonsThere is no need to bash animation and when did I ever say that I was comparing formats based on Ice Age 2? All I said was that it was a great looking movie.


on another note, i was just reading about a ps4 in the 2010 time-frame??!!?? what happened to next-gen console/player for the next 10 years? :eek:A few nutty analysts said that Sony might not make a PS4 and Sony simply said that they will make a PS4 but not any earlier than 2010. Also just to clarify this but a lot of people have heard that Sony wants the PS3 to last ten years but that is in terms of games being released on it. Something that is quite realistic considering how long games were released on the PS1.

cough - cough (PS4) we will do better next time cough-cough

If Sony can't respond now, they will miss their most critical window for sales volume, and risk more and more customers moving on to other options out of frustration or loss of interest.
They can't "respond"... They're producing max no. of PS3s and have no magic wand to suddenly flood the market.

More tellingly, the online interest in the PS3 dropped 15 percent the week after its debut, and while interest has also dropped for the Xbox 360, the Wii is still holding steady, according to the report.
Are you really surprised that interest has dropped after the launch week? 15 percent isn't much...

If the Xbox360 does indeed become dominant in the US, the market momentum behind it will shift into high gear. This in turn will provide a very large installed base of people who have the option to adopt HD-DVD at low cost.
I don't see how the marked momentum will shift into high gear. There was a peak of interest for it when people didn't find the PS3 in the store. I don't believe that peak will continue. Focus now will be on the Wii and the PS3 (as in # of units sold pr. week.)

Remember, the 6 million xbox owners didn't buy the xbox in anticipation of HD movie playback. Sure, some will see the $200 as a great deal and go for it, but to assume that a large percentage of Xbox360 owners will get it is risky.

(More risky than PS3 owners using their PS3 for movie playback, since they already own the machine, and don't have to spend another $200.)

If the Wii dominates in the US as well as Japan, that still places the Xbox360 in 2nd place, with the PS3 trailing in 3rd place. This is still a net positive for HD-DVD, though not as strong as having the dominant installed base of a 1st place position.
Initially this is true. But for Japan, I'm quite sure the PS3 will pass the Xbox360 quite soon. Due the cheaper price of the Wii and the Nintendo brand, I'm absolutely sure it will be the #1 new console in # of units sold. As far as PS3 vs. Xbox360 is concerned in the US, I'm not sure. The year lead of the 360 and supply issues and higher price of the PS3 does not count in its favor. We shall see. I do think that selling 100 million PS3s over its lifetime is a rather tall order, though.

A positive review of the HD DVD add-on. Basically a no-brainer buy for any Xbox 360 owner. http://www.eurogamer.net/article.php?article_id=70652

I hadn't thought of the this angle in the pricing of the add-on: So cheap in fact, that even if HD DVD eventually loses out to Blu-ray in the next gen DVD format war, it doesn't feel as though you've wasted too much money investing in what might possibly be the losing side." ;)

No matter, if I had an Xbox 360, I would for sure get it only to get Serenity and the unevitable release of the Battlestar Galactica series... :)

They can't "respond"... They're producing max no. of PS3s and have no magic wand to suddenly flood the market.


Are you really surprised that interest has dropped after the launch week? 15 percent isn't much...


I don't see how the marked momentum will shift into high gear. There was a peak of interest for it when people didn't find the PS3 in the store. I don't believe that peak will continue. Focus now will be on the Wii and the PS3 (as in # of units sold pr. week.)

Remember, the 6 million xbox owners didn't buy the xbox in anticipation of HD movie playback. Sure, some will see the $200 as a great deal and go for it, but to assume that a large percentage of Xbox360 owners will get it is risky.

(More risky than PS3 owners using their PS3 for movie playback, since they already own the machine, and don't have to spend another $200.)


Initially this is true. But for Japan, I'm quite sure the PS3 will pass the Xbox360 quite soon. Due the cheaper price of the Wii and the Nintendo brand, I'm absolutely sure it will be the #1 new console in # of units sold. As far as PS3 vs. Xbox360 is concerned in the US, I'm not sure. The year lead of the 360 and supply issues and higher price of the PS3 does not count in its favor. We shall see. I do think that selling 100 million PS3s over its lifetime is a rather tall order, though.

The biggest thing that will help the PS3 (or its successor) is that the archecture won't require a radical change to upgrade to 2x (maybe 3x) the overall processing power of the system.

A "PS4" might be nothing more than an upgrade in GPU, memory and processor speed (with a smaller die size).

b2b

Question for you b2b. Do you see any reason why Microsoft couldn't implement 1080p24 on the add-on?

Well they aren't.. But with pure SW decoding it would seem to be a easy thing to do technically. Ask Amir about it in the Q&A thread. There still is the matter of how they would deal with the problems with 30i PiP and how the studios would feel about a lax attitude towards the HD-DVD standards.

Plus, I really don't know many displays accept 24p (or multiple) analog signals. I doubt many new models will be adding 24p analog vs. HDMI digital for the future.

b2b

Quote:
Originally Posted by rdjam
Everyone here pretty much accepts that VC1 is the current reference benchmark for quality.

On Dec. 19th go buy Scary Movie 4 and you will eat your words. :)

I agree that CGI movies are easier to compress than live action movies, but I think Fox still did a good job in terms of encoding it.

There is no need to bash animation and when did I ever say that I was comparing formats based on Ice Age 2? All I said was that it was a great looking movie.


Glad to hear it looks well, as I said I also purchased the movie and will be giving it to my daughter for xmas.

Bashing animation? I was not bashing animation at all only pointing out that you were making a comparison between BR & HD DVD and using an animation as an example. To be redundant of course an animation should look well in hidef. I think your comparisons of formats would have been better off using say a movie that would take the studios a bit more skill to encode such as KOH and KK

It is surprising that you choose to say I am bashing something because I disagree with you even when I say in the same post that I have also purchased/support the same format and movie that we are discussing

First HD DVD ROM Drive Announced in Japan (http://www.cdrinfo.com/Sections/News/Details.aspx?NewsId=19215)

Japanese Buffalo announced the release of the first HD DVD ROM drive for PCs, offering playback of double-layer 30GB HD DVD video movies.

Dubbed "HDV-ROM2.4FB", the ATAPI drive will retail in the Japanese market late December at a suggested retail price of 37,000 Yen ($322).
...

Looking at some of the reviews of Sony releases, it is justified. My point is that it has to be separate from blaming it on the codec.

I didn't see any mention of any MPEG2 artifacts by the reviewer. The earlier releases had such artifacts (e.g., House of Flying Daggers). This review is very subjective. "awful contrast", "flat" transfer, etc. All of the negatives may very well be in the source.

If there are no artifacts, then the 'looked better' is open to interpretation (e.g., the trailer may be artificially jazzed up to make it attractive).

If Sony made a choice to apply some sort of filtering before encoding, then that can be a problem, and that would be a serious allegation -- within a context, of course. And if true, no one would defend that. I haven't seen anyone suggesting that. The review was of BD50 version, so I doubt there was any need. Also, the deleted scenes may have gone through different processing (I have seen such examples on DVDs). But this is all conjecture. This is the reason I don't like to talk about the codec now. Unless you can see the master, you can not prove anything if there are no artifacts (look at Darin's poll regarding visual transparency, and then look at the responses).

Bottomline(s): I am for criticizing studios that output bad movies on hi-def; I want to move on as far as codec talk is concerned. Unless I see compression artifacts in new movies, MPEG2 is not on my hit-list. There are more things that worry me on BD side than the choice of MPEG2. Fortunately, since I don't plan to buy HD-DVD, I only worry about Blu-ray. (does that mean I only worry 34.56%? :) )

but, but mpeg2 is antiquated, ancient technology that is at the root of the sd dvd fiasco ;)

First HD DVD ROM Drive Announced in Japan (http://www.cdrinfo.com/Sections/News/Details.aspx?NewsId=19215)
For once the internal drive(s) are more expensive than the external (xbox) one.. :)

are there any bd titles ou yet that do pip?

i know i've read of some forthcoming title(s) but i am interested in any out now and reviews/discussions about the results.

i ask b/c i was watching the pioneer bd demo on a pro-fhd1 plasma and during one portion when showing snippets from xmen iii, there was some pip stuff on screen and the inset picture looked HORRIBLY combed (is that the right term for that horrible interlacing artifact?)...i guess maybe i just answered my question, xmen iii has pip? can any bd players out there do pip?

I don't disagree that there were only five exclusive PS3 games at launch, but that what you said was wrong since you stated there were only 5 PS3 games at launch (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9076672&&#post9076672).Now it seems to be you getting confused.

When I say PS3-specific - I mean games that were designed "native" only for the PS3 and will only run on the PS3 (ie NOT PS2 games). I did not mean "titles" exclsusive only to the playstation platform and not available i.e. on the Xbox.

So when I say there were only 5 PS3 games at launch - I mean that there were only 5 *native* PS3 games available at launch, out of 13 games that were predicted by Sony.

So I'm actually being generous in saying "8 more are in the pipe"

Further, when asking you to name the *native PS3* titles on sale, I'm actually trapping you, since the ONLY title that anyone was actually able to buy at launch was Ridge Racer 7.

But, feel free to name the PS3 "native" games that are on sale right now today on December 6th 2006... :)


Point 2 - VC1 rules... AVC has the potential to be as good, but has not demonstrated superiority yet, despite wishes and desires.


So does this mean you would still bash Sony if they started using MPEG-4 AVC HP instead?Bear in mind I'm criticising Sony Pictures for their continued insistance that Mpeg2 is the best.

Their interview in Home Cinema Choice this month clearly states that they have NO desire or inclination to progress from Mpeg2 for their releases, a decision which I think is pretty dumb.

THIS is why I have repeatedly called Bluray an inconsistent format that people can't count on for quality. Sony gets one Mpeg2 encode right, and there are people running up and down the streets proclaiming the salvation of "The Bluray" - so far this has happened three times, but then more failures continue to happen also.

Sure, there are other studios who have turned their back on Mpeg2, and some of them publish to Bluray also - but once again, I use the word consistency.

On HD DVD, most releases are in VC1, with a couple here or there in AVC. On Bluray, there is just too much variation at the current time.

This is not a "technical" problem with the format, since we know that the players can play the same video formats (if not audio) as HD DVD, but it is a political problem. At the end of the day, politics has no business getting in the way of my getting the best product into my home - regardless of format.

Oh my God! They CAPPED him!

http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2006/12/05/fatal_ps3_shooting/

Quote:
Originally Posted by rdjam
Everyone here pretty much accepts that VC1 is the current reference benchmark for quality.

On Dec. 19th go buy Scary Movie 4 and you will eat your words. :)
Don't take this the wrong way - but is this statement based on your "faith and conviction" that AVC will be superior to VC1 - or have you actually reviewed the title?

MPEG LA Further Expands Call for Blu-ray DiscTM Patents (http://home.businesswire.com/portal/site/google/index.jsp?ndmViewId=news_view&newsId=20061206005653&newsLang=en)

In its continued response to marketplace interest in accessing as much essential intellectual property as possible in a single license, MPEG LA, LLC today expanded its call for patents essential to the implementation of the Blu-ray Disc™ Standard to include the following specification:

System Description Blu-ray Disc(TM) Rewritable Format,
Part 3 Audio Visual Basic Specifications, Version 3.0, September 2006

Inclusion of this specification is in addition to other Blu-ray Disc™ Specifications encompassed by previous calls for patents issued by MPEG LA [see http://www.mpegla.com/news/n_06-04-05_bluray.pdf and http://www.mpegla.com/news/n_06-07-27_pr.pdf]. Patents essential to additional Blu-ray Disc™ Specifications may be called for in the future.

Hi Mike - I can't say that I undersatnd all the interactions between the players in this industry - but is Mpeg LA tighter with Bluray than HD DVD? Have they had a "call for submissions" on patents regarding the HD DVD format also?

I'm just trying to understand what this means - on the surface it seems to be an offer to share royalty payments to those who can show they have done development on the Bluray platform?

didn't we already discredit this source...after all, had they included b2b's postings the numbers would be greatly skewed in favor of bd ;)

seriously, what internet sites/sources did they analyze to come up with these statistics?

This looks familiar

"There are other issues too; the sheer arrogance of Sony is incredible,
and puts me off wanting to support them." -- avforums.com :)

here is the PR release (http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/061206/new007.html?.v=82)

Seems like they are running low on "cherries" to pick for some of the HD-DVD titles. :rolleyes:

Knock, knock - "Who's there ?" - "Lookin'" - "Lookin' who ?"
Lookin' like the "Look and Sound of Perfect" ain't so "perfect" after all... ;)
What is going on with PQ. Im disappointed with the last batch of titles Ive purchased. Im scared to buy anything anymore without renting it first.
I own both formats and my rant is not just for HD DVD its for both camps but Im posting here because I hold higher standards and expect more from HD DVD.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=763286

b2b

Seems like they are running low on "cherries" to pick for some of the HD-DVD titles. :rolleyes:

Knock, knock - "Who's there ?" - "Lookin'" - "Lookin' who ?"
Lookin' like the "Look and Sound of Perfect" ain't so "perfect" after all... ;)

b2b
F.. U.. D..

FUD? Alan knows what he is talking about, one should think. HD DVD ain't perfect, just as Blu-ray ain't. Or do you disagree?

Seems like they are running low on "cherries" to pick for some of the HD-DVD titles. :rolleyes:

Knock, knock - "Who's there ?" - "Lookin'" - "Lookin' who ?"
Lookin' like the "Look and Sound of Perfect" ain't so "perfect" after all... ;)


http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=763286

b2b


knock, knock...who's there? foot...foot who? foot coming in, please move over mr. crow ;)

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=763694

etc., etc.

FUD? Alan knows what he is talking about, one should think. HD DVD ain't perfect, just as Blu-ray ain't. Or do you disagree?


the fud is b2b's spin/insinuation...

FUD? Alan knows what he is talking about, one should think. HD DVD ain't perfect, just as Blu-ray ain't. Or do you disagree?

Well here are comments from someone who seems to know about the inner workings of studio production, right down to model # of the $42,000 dollar CRT monitor they use...
That said....

It might surprise you to know that post production facilities do not use consumer HD displays as a reference. They have been using the BVM32E1WU for years. It is a very good display for color reference, but it is a CRT and does not have near the high frequency performance that a full rez LCD, Plasma, SXRD, DLP etc... have.
For those of you who think Sony or other studios have been reckless or cheap or whatever, leading to poor pictures, you need to realize that most of the problems that seem obvious to you now are nearly invisible on the best professional equipment. It is a paradox, but it is a fact. If you don't believe me, look at a few HD-DVD or BD titles on a consumer HD CRT and see if you have the same complaints.

This gap is being recognized by the whole industry and typical high end consumer displays are being installed right now for QC in numerous post facilties.

The AVS forum can take some credit for bringing about these changes. The motion picture industry moves slowly, but the negative press about some big box office titles is forcing everyone to look inward. ...And they do lurk on this forum...

The codec discussions are a waste of time, they are not the issue.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8976649&&#post8976649

b2b

PS3 firmware update...

http://www.engadget.com/2006/12/06/sony-releases-ps3-firmware-1-3-ignores-1080i-woes/

Well they aren't.. But with pure SW decoding it would seem to be a easy thing to do technically. Ask Amir about it in the Q&A thread. There still is the matter of how they would deal with the problems with 30i PiP and how the studios would feel about a lax attitude towards the HD-DVD standards.

Plus, I really don't know many displays accept 24p (or multiple) analog signals. I doubt many new models will be adding 24p analog vs. HDMI digital for the future.

b2b

If 1080p24 HD-DVD output showed up in a future software update for the Xbox360, I would not be very surprised. ;)

the fud is b2b's spin/insinuation...

Well then react to the facts and not the spin. The facts are that a lot of new HD-DVDs look less than perfect (and worse than the launch titles), according to Alan. So what is going on if it's not a case of running out of cherries to pick?

Hmmmm, let's see.

One end you have a single posting of a single user who is giving their opinion, linked from someone who doesn't even own a HD movie player.

Then you have an article posted on biz.yahoo.com that encompass the views of a number of people regarding HD DVD vs. Blu-ray.

This is what makes this arguement so FUDdy-duddy on either side.

Newsflash. When I am watching Caddyshack, I'm not exactly expecting it to be of King Kong quality. I know what I'm getting PQ wise with that movie.

are there any bd titles ou yet that do pip?

i know i've read of some forthcoming title(s) but i am interested in any out now and reviews/discussions about the results.

i ask b/c i was watching the pioneer bd demo on a pro-fhd1 plasma and during one portion when showing snippets from xmen iii, there was some pip stuff on screen and the inset picture looked HORRIBLY combed (is that the right term for that horrible interlacing artifact?)...i guess maybe i just answered my question, xmen iii has pip? can any bd players out there do pip?Interesting. It would seem most likely that the demo is just a simulation of PiP. But then it seems like they could have avoided a combing problem. I didn't think the Pioneer player supported doing PiP with a secondary stream.

--Darin

Well then react to the facts and not the spin. The facts are that a lot of new HD-DVDs look less than perfect (and worse than the launch titles), according to Alan. So what is going on if it's not a case of running out of cherries to pick?

Ya Universal, Warner & Paramount are running out of titles to pick from....

Alans remark about there recent PQ does not equate to the studios not having more and better titles in there library

Also keep in mind its barely been 3 weeks since kong was release and that hardly was a b rated movie or had bad PQ

But on both formats side, I too want more and better movies released every week!!!

From that other thread talking about recent HD-DVD releases which were disappointing:

It is because VC-1 at 12-18MBit/s avg. needs alot of hand tuning to avoid posterization in critical scenes. eg. the encoder "sees" a sky with no details, just some gradients. Because of the tight bitrate budget it applies very little bandwidth to this area of the scene which appears to be very easy to compress. BUT because there is no real detail present in something like a clear sky posterization of any kind (due to overcompressing this area, not using dithering ...) will be very visible, whereas is richly textured areas it will not. Solution to the problem: Extensive hand tuning on the part of the compressionist is needed to manually apply more bandwidth to problematic scenes. Or Amir and Co improve the encoder's ability to recognize those scenes automatically. Or we take the brute force route and use sufficient bitrates.

Releases like King Kong get the full treatment - massive amount of hand tuning to make VC-1 shine at the bitrates available. Most other releases don't get this royal treatment so therefor vissible artifacts like posterization are more obvious.

I suspected that MS was cherry-picking some HD-DVD releases and practically hand-holding on the compression/authoring of those, if not doing it themselves.

Wasn't Stacy Spears and Ben working on titles? But were those for production or for testing or some other purpose?

Anyways, obviously they can't hand-tune every scene of every title. So they're touting their tools and leaving it up to refinements in the tools and the VC-1 codec.

But probably they're going for quantity at this point, cranking out titles so that there's a selection to compete against the greater Blu-Ray studio support.

Of course Blu-Ray titles could be rushed as well but hasn't the trend been that Blu-Ray releases are improving?

I give up because in this post (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9056211&&#post9056211) Anthony was taking issue with Ben's point that 60i is not part of the spec for what a PLAYER MUST DO.

My subsequent posts are to try and illustrate that the spec is for what the FORMAT ON THE DISC MUST CONTAIN.

Theflags ALLOW the player to intelligently output 60i from the intrnal stages and to the display. It does not PROHIBIT the player from ding something different.

Do you believe that that a HD-DVD enabled HTPC running at 72 Hz must process the 24p to 60i first, and connot simply frame-triple the native stream of the disc, and deal with the additonal streams as need be (perhaps frame-repeating or decimating?).

Do you suppose that a future uber-HD disc player w/ 120hz outputs would be prohibited from simply repeating the 24p frames 5x and the 60i IME frames 2 times, and instead MUST operate at 60i internally as per HD DVD spec?

No. The spec mandates the disc/stream/data format. that includes flags. The players can do what they need to with it.

May be I can help.

Your post:


So, Anthony produced the snippet (I think that was more of a white paper than the spec). ...Anyway, I think you are using the term output, and Anthony is using the term processing. That much is clear. I don't know what your definition of output is (this discussion is several pages old, so I have my own definition mixed up!).

If a player needs to output 24p, it cannot be done strictly following the spec: Decoder will have to ignore the flags and output 24p (let's call it stage1 output), which will then somehow get PiP'ed by secondary stream (which may or may not be 24p). I guess the conflict is that according to the spec, 'stage1' output must be 60i in 60Hz region.

I am trying to understand which part you disagree with (since I took part in this discussion earlier). Are you saying that flags can be ignored and still comply with the spec? Nobody is saying 24p is impossible. I haven't looked at the actual specs yet, so please let us know if this interpretation is wrong.

I give up because in this post (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9056211&&#post9056211) Anthony was taking issue with Ben's point that 60i is not part of the spec for what a PLAYER MUST DO.

My subsequent posts are to try and illustrate that the spec is for what the FORMAT ON THE DISC MUST CONTAIN.

Theflags ALLOW the player to intelligently output 60i from the intrnal stages and to the display. It does not PROHIBIT the player from ding something different.

Do you believe that that a HD-DVD enabled HTPC running at 72 Hz must process the 24p to 60i first, and connot simply frame-triple the native stream of the disc, and deal with the additonal streams as need be (perhaps frame-repeating or decimating?).

Do you suppose that a future uber-HD disc player w/ 120hz outputs would be prohibited from simply repeating the 24p frames 5x and the 60i IME frames 2 times, and instead MUST operate at 60i internally as per HD DVD spec?

No. The spec mandates the disc/stream/data format. that includes flags. The players can do what they need to with it.

Well then your proof will be the day when "players" do as you say, doing whatever they feel like doing.. As a note.. I wouldn't be holding your breath waiting for 24p straight from the disc... ;)

b2b

FUD? Alan knows what he is talking about, one should think. HD DVD ain't perfect, just as Blu-ray ain't. Or do you disagree?
Sorry for your confusion, nils

My FUD statement was directed at b2b's post

Seems like they are running low on "cherries" to pick for some of the HD-DVD titles. :rolleyes:

Knock, knock - "Who's there ?" - "Lookin'" - "Lookin' who ?"
Lookin' like the "Look and Sound of Perfect" ain't so "perfect" after all... ;)

b2b
F.. U.. D..

Haven't seen this up here yet.

"Playstation 3 Not helping Blu-Ray?"

http://www.dvdtown.com/news/playstation3nothelpingbluray/4206

OT... clarification on the "10 million" number floating around about the 360..
That "sold" number refers to units "sold into retail" and refers to units in transit, units sitting in store inventories and machines sold to consumers, the spokeswoman said.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20061206/tc_nm/microsoft_xbox360_dc_1

Still no word on any figures for the addon using the dubious "sold into retail" (i.e. it left the factory ??) that MS is choosing to use for "sold" numbers... :rolleyes:

b2b

I wouldn't be holding your breath waiting for 24p straight from the disc...
Don't have to. Its been done (1080 @72 Hz) since WinDVD was used on a Toshiba notebook with a HD DVD drive -- last July. (see post by Ben W.)

Well then react to the facts and not the spin. The facts are that a lot of new HD-DVDs look less than perfect (and worse than the launch titles), according to Alan. So what is going on if it's not a case of running out of cherries to pick?

i don't carry the burden of proof on this...and if you can't shoulder the burden, then don't toss out such sheer speculation unless all you want to do is spread FUD...and defending FUD is the same as proliferating FUD :D

anyhow, i was merely clarifying what was being labeled FUD...hope i helped ;)

Don't have to. Its been done (1080 @72 Hz) since WinDVD was used on a Toshiba notebook with a HD DVD drive -- last July. (see post by Ben W.)

Well if that's your "player" of choice then I guess you're golden... How does the PiP look BTW... ;)

b2b

Don't have to. Its been done (1080 @72 Hz) since WinDVD was used on a Toshiba notebook with a HD DVD drive -- last July. (see post by Ben W.)

come now, you shouldn't be throwing out cold hard facts, this isn't the thread for it ;)

Well if that's your "player" of choice then I guess you're golden... How does the PiP look BTW... ;)

b2b

LOL, how does the PiP look on the BD players...oh wait...;)

come now, you shouldn't be throwing out cold hard facts, this isn't the thread for it ;)

Next quesiton, does WinDVD decode all of the audio codecs as mandated by the HD-DVD spec ?? I asked before and no one seems to know.

b2b

Interesting. It would seem most likely that the demo is just a simulation of PiP. But then it seems like they could have avoided a combing problem. I didn't think the Pioneer player supported doing PiP with a secondary stream.

--Darin

so xmen III doesn't have PiP? then i agree with your comment that you would think they should have been able to avoid the combing...haven't many people seen this demo disc or was i seeing something new?

i was at harvey electronics in nyc...

Next quesiton, does WinDVD decode all of the audio codecs as mandated by the HD-DVD spec ?? I asked before and no one seems to know.

b2b

afaik, wind dvd hd is not commercially available to consumers unless you get it packaged with a pc/laptop or somehow get the jp version and do some monkeying around...

what are all the audio codecs mandated by the spec?

[EDIT: a quick trip to intervideo's site gives:

HD DVD and Blu-ray Playback Support:
To be purchased separately. Available soon - check back often!
]

btw, in case this was missed, the 2d gen tosh A2s are shipping...a few online vendors show them as in stock and value electronics will supposedly have its full initial allotment by 12/12...guess that "talking point" (as so many avid bd supporters like to call them) has fallen by the wayside...

Well if that's your "player" of choice then I guess you're golden... How does the PiP look BTW...
No, my player of choice (second one to be used at my home actually) will be the 360 add on connected to a HTPC running either WinDVD or PowerDVD (those apps are due out mid month as standalone purchases). Already have the add on hooked up to a PC being able to read HD DVD files.

Bob

Edit: if PiP looks bad at an exact display refresh multiple of 24 Hz -- then either I would not care (no big deal) or would switch to traditional 1080i60 display which you can easily do with a PC.

come now, you shouldn't be throwing out cold hard facts, this isn't the thread for it ;)In fact, about 7 pages earlier in this thread, in the original discussion, I already mentioned that this is done already. Shows that people are jumping in the discussion without reading the whole discussion! Not surprising, though. And I don't think anyone said it is not done in a PC. But it is not done in a CE player, yet. This is a future promise as far as CE players are concerned. Hence all the interpretation of the spec, and stuff.

Those, including me, saying 60i internal is required by spec are not spreading non-facts/lies. I would rather say that it is an interpretation. Very different thing. Others have shown their interpretation (which are not facts either).

HD-DVD definitely made some peculiar choices, IMO. Not everyone would agree on the right or wrong. I normally don't take part in HD-DVD discussions, but this 24p subject (among a few others) interests me because of the pecularity of the problem, not because it is a weakness in HD-DVD format. Personally, I don't think it is since there are ways to achieve 24p. Both formats do have their strengths and weaknesses, though.

I know, you are just throwing a funny jab which is fine; I rather welcome it. I am just taking the opportunity to share my thought process. It is good to discuss things in a fun way. That's why I come to AVS.

Bashing animation? I was not bashing animation at all only pointing out that you were making a comparison between BR & HD DVD and using an animation as an example.Once again could you point out where I said that I was comparing the two formats based on Ice Age 2? I can't see why you believe that and I certainly never intended to do that by saying something positive about that movie.


It is surprising that you choose to say I am bashing something because I disagree with you even when I say in the same post that I have also purchased/support the same format and movie that we are discussingWasn't trying to offend but it did sound like you were implying that Ice Age 2 wasn't anything to praise because it was a "cartoon".


Now it seems to be you getting confused.Not really, and I am right when I say that there were more than 5 PS3 games at launch in the US.


When I say PS3-specific - I mean games that were designed "native" only for the PS3 and will only run on the PS3 (ie NOT PS2 games).I believe you are referring to exclusive games and that is not what you originally said in your post.


Further, when asking you to name the *native PS3* titles on sale, I'm actually trapping you, since the ONLY title that anyone was actually able to buy at launch was Ridge Racer 7.Well that is a bit strange since I bought Resistance with my PS3 on the day it launched in the US. As such why do you believe that only Ridge Racer 7 was available at launch?


Point 2 - VC1 rules... AVC has the potential to be as good, but has not demonstrated superiority yet, despite wishes and desires.So your saying that you believe that MPEG-4 AVC HP is not capable of encoding great looking movies? No offense but a lot of professional reviewers would disagree with you on that belief.


THIS is why I have repeatedly called Bluray an inconsistent format that people can't count on for quality.Would you defend any and all HD DVD titles that have been released? If not than wouldn't HD DVD be an inconsistent format as well? To be fair up until now Blu-ray has had a good number of poor looking encodings, but from what I hear HD DVD is catching up in that regard.

btw, in case this was missed, the 2d gen tosh A2s are shipping...a few online vendors show them as in stock and value electronics will supposedly have its full initial allotment by 12/12...guess that "talking point" (as so many avid bd supporters like to call them) has fallen by the wayside...Don't worry, we will find something else! :)

Haven't seen this up here yet.

"Playstation 3 Not helping Blu-Ray?"

http://www.dvdtown.com/news/playstation3nothelpingbluray/4206

And then there is this:

Wait and See Time for high def DVD (http://www.videobusiness.com/blog/1730000173.html)


I haven't heard a number yet for Blu-ray, but I have heard Blu-ray disc sales were twice as high on Blu-ray in the days following the PS3's launch and backers seem pleased so far.


Gary

Those, including me, saying 60i internal is required by spec are not spreading non-facts/lies. I would rather say that it is an interpretation. Very different thing. Others have shown their interpretation (which are not facts either).In many cases, implementation stuff in these specs are simply models. As long as a player decodes/outputs properly, and passes conformance tests, nobody cares how it is actually implemented internally. The various guidelines may also be used to suggest specific things to provide better interoperatibility.

...
THIS is why I have repeatedly called Bluray an inconsistent format that people can't count on for quality.Would you defend any and all HD DVD titles that have been released? If not than wouldn't HD DVD be an inconsistent format as well? To be fair up until now Blu-ray has had a good number of poor looking encodings, but from what I hear HD DVD is catching up in that regard.To add... Formats are not inconsistent. Studios are. Blame the studios. Just my few cents.

By the way, rdjam, I just checked. There are more studios besides Sony. Reading your posts I wouldn't have known that! :p Also, if Sony decides to release movies on HD-DVD, will the problems in their releases go away? Or do you think it will go away when they shift to AVC? I think the quality of current releases is not format related.

In many cases, implementation stuff in these specs are simply models. As long as a player decodes/outputs properly, and passes conformance tests, nobody cares how it is actually implemented internally.I'll admit: For me this means end of discussion. Thanks Keith.

[EDIT: The various guidelines may also be used to suggest specific things to provide better interoperatibility. May be not the end of discussion! :) But I guess the message is it is upto the implementation as far as internal processing goes.]

Dialog, you forgot the other half of that quote on that blog:

On the HD DVD side, the attach rate (the number of discs sold per player) is around 25 DVDs, higher than DVD was when if first launch.

Again, let's be fair please.

No, my player of choice (second one to be used at my home actually) will be the 360 add on connected to a HTPC running either WinDVD or PowerDVD (those apps are due out mid month as standalone purchases). Already have the add on hooked up to a PC being able to read HD DVD files.

Bob

Edit: if PiP looks bad at an exact display refresh multiple of 24 Hz -- then either I would not care (no big deal) or would switch to traditional 1080i60 display which you can easily do with a PC.

and you would then make optimal use of the dreaded flags to give you nice, albeit with unavoidable judder (unless we get up to 120Hz), 1080/60 display :)

And then there is this:

Wait and See Time for high def DVD (http://www.videobusiness.com/blog/1730000173.html)



Gary



All in all, another good article for HD-DVD.

For the most part studio execs and retailers I talked to said they're waiting to see how sales on high def shake out this quarter, without as much of the blustery talk of years, or even months, past. Still, the Blu-ray guys are always quick to talk up sales of the PlayStation 3 console that will put them into millions of homes by first quarter, while the HD DVD guys are quick to suggest looking at the attach rate of Blu-ray discs to players. On the HD DVD side, the attach rate (the number of discs sold per player) is around 25 DVDs, higher than DVD was when if first launch. I haven't heard a number yet for Blu-ray, but I have heard Blu-ray disc sales were twice as high on Blu-ray in the days following the PS3's launch and backers seem pleased so far.

It's not hard to go from selling X to 2X discs when X is a very small number. Sales rank for BD on thedvdwars.com is now more in the 2,xxx range as opposed to the 3,xxx range. How do you think BD sales will shake out this quarter? The studio guys are sure looking closely at these numbers.

http://www.thedvdwars.com/index.cfm

In fact, about 7 pages earlier in this thread, in the original discussion, I already mentioned that this is done already. Shows that people are jumping in the discussion without reading the whole discussion! Not surprising, though. And I don't think anyone said it is not done in a PC. But it is not done in a CE player, yet. This is a future promise as far as CE players are concerned. Hence all the interpretation of the spec, and stuff.

Those, including me, saying 60i internal is required by spec are not spreading non-facts/lies. I would rather say that it is an interpretation. Very different thing. Others have shown their interpretation (which are not facts either).

HD-DVD definitely made some peculiar choices, IMO. Not everyone would agree on the right or wrong. I normally don't take part in HD-DVD discussions, but this 24p subject (among a few others) interests me because of the pecularity of the problem, not because it is a weakness in HD-DVD format. Personally, I don't think it is since there are ways to achieve 24p. Both formats do have their strengths and weaknesses, though.

I know, you are just throwing a funny jab which is fine; I rather welcome it. I am just taking the opportunity to share my thought process. It is good to discuss things in a fun way. That's why I come to AVS.

i can certainly appreciate interpretations, after all that is exactly what the standards unfortunately allow, many "interpretations" ... witness hdmi problems, etc.

but things are being stated much more forcefully and for the reason of ... well you know ...

i see kjack has offered some wisdom on this topic and i thank him for that...

Don't worry, we will find something else! :)

another universal absolute ;)

To be fair up until now Blu-ray has had a good number of poor looking encodings, but from what I hear HD DVD is catching up in that regard.Please don't accept ******** from HD-DVD supporters. For the past two or three months, the PQ ratings of both formats have been averaging the same and both have releases with great, good and poor PQ.

This digusting notion that HD-DVD PQ is better than BD PQ is pure ******** that HD-DVD supporters have been screeching about for months. It's a lie.

This makes no sense,

Both titles are due in stores on February 13, and will be presented as BD-25 single-layer discs. Tech specs include 1.85:1 widescreen 1080p/MPEG-2 transfers, DTS-HD Lossless Master Audio 5.1 surround tracks (still no English Dolby Digital options, though) and the usual English, French and Spanish subtitles.

Unfortunately, not a single supplemental feature will be included on either title, nor any exclusive HD content.

Both 'The Usual Suspects' and 'The Princess Bride,' which are being distributed for MGM via Fox Home Entertainment, will retail for $39.95 each.


usual suspects is a great movie...shame they are probably looking to double-dip this one...

This digusting notion that HD-DVD PQ is better than BD PQ is pure ******** that HD-DVD supporters have been screeching about for months. It's a lie.

Huh, how is that a lie? If the majority of all HD DVD supporters here, specially members that own both formats think that consistantly the PQ is better on HD DVD compared to Blu-Ray then how is that a lie? I certainly wouldnt say it is fact but I definetly think the majority here all have this opinion.

Not really, and I am right when I say that there were more than 5 PS3 games at launch in the US.

Yeah I don't really get that, either. Hopefully he'll elucidate. Not that I expect to see him every say anything positive about the PS3 or BD, though. ;)



So your saying that you believe that MPEG-4 AVC HP is not capable of encoding great looking movies? No offense but a lot of professional reviewers would disagree with you on that belief.


And plenty of neophytes would disagree that MPEG2 can't do great encodings that are at the very least the equal of VC1 encodings for the same title (see MI3 as one example). A visit to the Blu-ray software tier thread shows many fine movies rated Tier 1 that are great MPEG2 encodes.


Would you defend any and all HD DVD titles that have been released? If not than wouldn't HD DVD be an inconsistent format as well? To be fair up until now Blu-ray has had a good number of poor looking encodings, but from what I hear HD DVD is catching up in that regard.

One only needs to go to the HD-DVD software forum and it's tier thread specifically to see many poor VC1 encodes.

And plenty of neophytes would disagree that MPEG2 can't do great encodings that are at the very least the equal of VC1 encodings for the same title (see MI3 as one example). A visit to the Blu-ray software tier thread shows many fine movies rated Tier 1 that are great MPEG2 encodes.

I dont think many are saying MPEG2 can not produce great results only that with more efficient codecs space can be saved allowing more content to be put on each of the disks.

Huh, how is that a lie? If the majority of all HD DVD supporters here, specially members that own both formats think that consistantly the PQ is better on HD DVD compared to Blu-Ray then how is that a lie? I certainly wouldnt say it is fact but I definetly think the majority here all have this opinion.

Regardless of whether it's intentional, it's a pure fallacy to say that HD-DVD PQ is inherently superior. Quantatitve PQ differences are dependent on numerous factors (encode, master, etc) but are NOT inherent to either format. Both have their share of excellent releases and duds alike.

Regardless of whether it's intentional, it's a pure fallacy to say that HD-DVD PQ is inherently superior. Quantatitve PQ differences are dependent on numerous factors (encode, master, etc) but are NOT inherent to either format. Both have their share of excellent releases and duds alike.

Of course both have there share of great movies & duds as you put it. But so far I think HD DVD has consistently put out a larger share of great movies compared to what I have seen so far on BR. And again I think you will find a larger amount of people here that would say the same at this point. You could try starting a poll to see for yourself

I've seen enough polls get trolled that I'd know better than that. It'd certainly be nice to see a scientific poll on the an objective representative sample done, though.

I've seen enough polls get trolled that I'd know better than that. It'd certainly be nice to see a scientific poll on the an objective representative sample done, though.

Agreed but a simple poll asking the members if they think the PQ of both formats are equal or if they prefer one over the other will give some type of idea to what percentage of the members think.

To add... Formats are not inconsistent. Studios are. Blame the studios. Just my few cents.
Hi Keith - well I guess this means that there are just more consistent studios on HD DVD :) So if a studio converts to HD DVD, does that mean they'll become more consistent too? :D

Agreed but a simple poll asking the members if they think the PQ of both formats are equal or if they prefer one over the other will give some type of idea to what percentage of the members think.

anyone here want to start such a poll?

it would be a good idea :)

(make it a public poll so we can see who votes)

Hi Keith - well I guess this means that there are just more consistent studios on HD DVD :) So if a studio converts to HD DVD, does that mean they'll become more consistent too? :D

Nope, they will just have to lower their bit rate ceilings and plan on using smaller disc sizes... ;)

b2b

Not really, and I am right when I say that there were more than 5 PS3 games at launch in the US.Here's the FULL list of the NINE titles that were predicted to be available at launch:

November 7 - Tony Hawk's Project 8 - Activision - Action Sports
November 7 - Delta Force: Black Hawk Down - NovaLogic - Shooter
November 7 - SEGA Genesis Collection - SEGA - Compilation
November 7 - Guitar Hero II - RedOctane - Music
November 7 - Dragon Ball Z: Budokai Tenkaichi 2 - Atari - Fighting
November 7 - Bionicle Heroes - Eidos Interactive - Action
November 7 - Call of Duty 3 - Activision - Shooter
November 7 - The Sopranos: Road to Respect - THQ - Action
November 7 - SOCOM U.S.

Care to tell me which ones you think are actually on sale today?

I believe you are referring to exclusive games and that is not what you originally said in your post.I've already corrected you and explained what I mean by a "native PS3 game".

So your saying that you believe that MPEG-4 AVC HP is not capable of encoding great looking movies? No offense but a lot of professional reviewers would disagree with you on that belief.Considering my original statement (which you quoted) was: AVC has the potential to be as good, but has not demonstrated superiority yet, I think you are just doing your usual here.

anyone here want to start such a poll?

it would be a good idea :)

(make it a public poll so we can see who votes)

I think it'd be nice if they made it an option that EVERY member had to do when signing on before going to any forums or PM's. :)

anyone here want to start such a poll?

it would be a good idea :)

(make it a public poll so we can see who votes)

Mark, no one could do it better than you. Hope you'll start the poll.

-Robert

News regarding future upgrades for Sony BDP-S1

http://hdguru.com/?p=24

Fox Sends 'From Hell' to Blu-ray Purgatory (http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/news/show/Fox/Disc_Announcements/Fox_Sends_From_Hell_to_Blu-ray_Purgatory/381)

The delay is a disappointment as 'From Hell' was one of the few initial Fox Blu-ray titles to include Java-based content exclusive to the next-gen format.Last minute postponement from Fox, on the heels of the "Speed" debacle...another BD-J title.

Mark, no one could do it better than you. Hope you'll start the poll.

-Robert



Do you see a difference?

Picture quality poll (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9096306&&#post9096306)
Audio quality poll (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9096789&&#post9096789)

Here's the FULL list of the NINE titles that were predicted to be available at launch:

November 7 - Tony Hawk's Project 8 - Activision - Action Sports
November 7 - Delta Force: Black Hawk Down - NovaLogic - Shooter
November 7 - SEGA Genesis Collection - SEGA - Compilation
November 7 - Guitar Hero II - RedOctane - Music
November 7 - Dragon Ball Z: Budokai Tenkaichi 2 - Atari - Fighting
November 7 - Bionicle Heroes - Eidos Interactive - Action
November 7 - Call of Duty 3 - Activision - Shooter
November 7 - The Sopranos: Road to Respect - THQ - Action
November 7 - SOCOM U.S.

Care to tell me which ones you think are actually on sale today?

I've already corrected you and explained what I mean by a "native PS3 game".I didn't follow your explanation of "native PS3 game" as far as whether you are counting games that were also released on the XBOX360. Is "Call of Duty 3" one that you are counting or not counting (since people can get an XBOX360 version)?

The statement I saw from you here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9076672&&#post9076672) about this was, "After all - only 5 launch games ...".

--Darin

i have to say, i don't understand what rdjam is saying regarding native ps3 games either :)

From the BDP-S1 product page:

Note about Interactive Capability of BD-J (BD-Java) Function
Posted: 11/29/2006

Some BD-ROM discs, like the packaged movies, provide enhanced features with a new software application technology known as "BD-J". To enjoy the BD-J function in some discs, you may need to upgrade your player with the latest firmware. This update is anticipated to be released in 2007.

Talk, oh Talk? Care to talk some more about BD-J compliance? First the Sammy, now the Sony, and if Pioneer decides to pull a Sony, later the Pioneer.

i have to say, i don't understand what rdjam is saying regarding native ps3 games either :)

Is he not simply saying "Games that will only play on the PS3"?

Is he not simply saying "Games that will only play on the PS3"?

That was my understanding... nothing in the way of exclusivity, just that it had to be a native PS3 game... i.e. not a PS2 game that can play on the PS3.

Cheers...
Duy-Khang Hoang

From the BDP-S1 product page:

Note about Interactive Capability of BD-J (BD-Java) Function
Posted: 11/29/2006

Some BD-ROM discs, like the packaged movies, provide enhanced features with a new software application technology known as "BD-J". To enjoy the BD-J function in some discs, you may need to upgrade your player with the latest firmware. This update is anticipated to be released in 2007.

Talk, oh Talk? Care to talk some more about BD-J compliance? First the Sammy, now the Sony, and if Pioneer decides to pull a Sony, later the Pioneer.

tisn't required by the specs until jun '07, why bother before then... :eek:

That was my understanding... nothing in the way of exclusivity, just that it had to be a native PS3 game... i.e. not a PS2 game that can play on the PS3.


Why not include Resistance or Genji, amongst others, and what then did he mean by only Ridge Racer available at launch?

tisn't required by the specs until jun '07, why bother before then... :eek:


That's would be BD-Live. BD-J (what ever is in the spec) is mandatory on all BR players.

That's would be BD-Live. BD-J (what ever is in the spec) is mandatory on all BR players.

you may be right, i thought bd-j wasn't required...i'll take a look next time i get a chance to sneak a peak.

That's would be BD-Live. BD-J (what ever is in the spec) is mandatory on all BR players.Adding... PiP is not mandatory in basic BD-Video (Profile 1); it is in BD-Live (Profile 2).

Please don't accept ******** from HD-DVD supporters.

This digusting notion that HD-DVD PQ is better than BD PQ is pure ******** that HD-DVD supporters have been screeching about for months. It's a lie.

Zuber's taking the high road again I see! :rolleyes: Good on 'ya!

Here's what the Sony update "fixed." And by fixed I mean it hates people with 720p sets (http://arstechnica.com/journals/thumbs.ars/2006/12/6/6196)

If you have a 720p set, not only has Sony not fixed the scaling issues, they've made the process of playing games and watching movies less user friendly. Sony really wants you to upgrade into a 1080p set, and they seem to want to punish you if you don't have one. Remember folks, the high-definition era doesn't start until Sony says so. When will they say so? Not yet.

Do you see a difference?

Picture quality poll (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9096306&&#post9096306)
Audio quality poll (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9096789&&#post9096789)
Hi Mark,

With full respect, I feel that by requiring that people can only vote based on titles that have been released on both formats undermines the whole point of the poll.

Most of those titles on both formats are VC1 encodes that were ported to Bluray, which will obviously look the same - and forces voters NOT to give any consideration of the many Bluray-exclusive titles that look terrible.

Surely that wasn't your goal? User should be allowed to vote based on ALL titles they have seen for each format.

Just my two cents...

I didn't follow your explanation of "native PS3 game" as far as whether you are counting games that were also released on the XBOX360. Is "Call of Duty 3" one that you are counting or not counting (since people can get an XBOX360 version)?

The statement I saw from you here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9076672&&#post9076672) about this was, "After all - only 5 launch games ...".

--Darin
Pheeew!!

OK - one last try!

I am asking how many PS3 games were available to buy at launch...

It doesn't matter if they are available on other platforms such as xbox of not - so I don't care if they are Playstation-exclusives or not.

All I care about is that they were PS3-coded version, coded specifically for the PS3, as opposed to PS2-coded games that may or may not happen to run on the PS3.

Again, not talking "platform exclusive", but PS3 native coded games....

Hopefully, that's as clear as mud! :)

Is he not simply saying "Games that will only play on the PS3"?
EXACTLY! Hallelujah!

Thank you Ezra! :D

"The Magic has Arrived !!"

At least according to Disney... Check out the latest "previews" on Pirates 2 for a "BluRay" spot. Doesn't look like good ole Disney has any "HD-DVD" plans anytime soon.. ;)

b2b

Here's what the Sony update "fixed." And by fixed I mean it hates people with 720p sets (http://arstechnica.com/journals/thumbs.ars/2006/12/6/6196)Initially people were complaining about 'odd' order that Sony chose, now that Sony has changed that to 'proper' order (moving 1080i above 720p), people are now complaining about that! Looks like Sony cannot please everyone. They need to add the scaler.

BD-J (what ever is in the spec) is mandatory on all BR players.
That's what I thought, too...

Didn't Sony get the memo? :confused:

If the majority of all HD DVD supporters here, specially members that own both formats think that consistantly the PQ is better on HD DVD compared to Blu-Ray then how is that a lie?Would that include recently released titles though? This is not aimed at you but it is rather noticeable that a few HD DVD supporters keep harping on certain old Blu-ray releases while completely ignoring newer Blu-ray releases.


Here's the FULL list of the NINE titles that were predicted to be available at launch:

...

Care to tell me which ones you think are actually on sale today?rdjam, that list of delayed games had nothing to do with what I said and why is it you have such a hard time admitting you made a mistake by saying that there were only 5 PS3 games at launch (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9076672&&#post9076672)? Also why did you think that Ridge Racer 7 was the only PS3 game available at launch?


I've already corrected you and explained what I mean by a "native PS3 game".You didn't mention anything about native PS3 games in your first post (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9076672&&#post9076672). Also if Ezra and hdkhang are right about what you mean by a "native PS3 game" than technically there were 13 available for the US launch.


Considering my original statement (which you quoted) was: AVC has the potential to be as good, but has not demonstrated superiority yet, I think you are just doing your usual here.All I am asking for is clarification on whether you think MPEG-4 AVC HP is capable of great video quality at the moment?


Talk, oh Talk? Care to talk some more about BD-J compliance?Alex, didn't the HD-A1 needed a firmware update for some of the newer HDi discs as well?

Again, not talking "platform exclusive", but PS3 native coded games....

Hopefully, that's as clear as mud! :)That helps. I don't know the exact number. I had to wait until I think the next day or the day after for the store I got a PS3 from to have Call of Duty 3, so not sure if you would count that one. Here is a list of potentials. Maybe somebody knows exactly how many of these were in the stores right away.

Genji: Days of the Blade
Tony Hawk's Project 8
Resistance: Fall of Man
NBA '07
Ridge Racer 7
NHL 2K7
Untold Legends: Dark Kingdom
Marvel: Ultimate Alliance
Need for Speed Carbon
Tiger Woods PGA Tour '07
Madden NFL '07
NBA 2K7
Mobile Suit Gundam: Crossfire
Call of Duty 3

--Darin

rdjam, that list of delayed games had nothing to do with what I said and why is it you have such a hard time admitting you made a mistake by saying that there were only 5 PS3 games at launch (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9076672&&#post9076672)? Also why did you think that Ridge Racer 7 was the only PS3 game available at launch? BINGO! This was not a "list of delayed games", as you choose to call it - it was a list of the launch titles. If you are saying they have been delayed then you just made my point for me....

You didn't mention anything about native PS3 games in your first post (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9076672&&#post9076672). Also if Ezra and hdkhang are right about what you mean by a "native PS3 game" than technically there were 13 available for the US launch.I said PS3-specific, meaning native, in my original post, which I repeated to you twice. Just admit you didn't understand (smacks head) - and there were SUPPOSED to be 13, but only 5 (FIVE) made it to market, with the other 8 delayed - which AGAIN, is EXACTLY what I originally said.

All I am asking for is clarification on whether you think MPEG-4 AVC HP is capable of great video quality at the moment?You make every simple discussion difficult with sheer obstructiveness sometimes. I have repeated my position twice already in quotes - remember tha "capable of matching" and "not demonstrated" bits?

Alex, didn't the HD-A1 needed a firmware update for some of the newer HDi discs as well?well, since you've got me here, I may as well answer this one too.

The A1 and XA1 were both fully compliant with HDi at launch, a very slight mod was made to improve operation.

This is entirely different to the Bluray situation where every single Bluray player is not even remotely meeting the mandatory BD-J spec (apart from the PS3, MAYBE) and manaufacturers like Sony promising they'll fix them in 2007 to meet the mandatory basic BD-J spec.

Someone else take over - PLEASE :)

Phew - OK , time for some NEWS :)

Check this one out - "Optical HD Battle May Be Over: HD DVD Wins"

http://news.digitaltrends.com/talkback158.html

They even mention the HD NOW petition campaign :D

The A1 and XA1 were both fully compliant with HDi at launch, a very slight mod was made to improve operation.What do you mean by "fully compliant"? Are you claiming that the 2.0 firmware changes for iHD count as a "very slight mod"?

--Darin

What do you mean by "fully compliant"? Are you claiming that the 2.0 firmware changes for iHD count as a "very slight mod"?

--Darin
Err, question1: "Fully compliant" means, err, "Fully compliant"...

Question 2: Why don't you tell me what it fixed then - since the question implies that you even know...

And when you're finished answering that, please explain what Sony means when they say "ADD BD-J" - does that like mean it's not there right now?

BINGO! This was not a "list of delayed games", as you choose to call it - it was a list of the launch titles. If you are saying they have been delayed then you just made my point for me....I never said that there weren't launch games for the PS3 that were delayed. What I said is that it had nothing to do with what we were talking about and it seems like an attempt to change the topic.


I said PS3-specific, meaning native, in my original post, which I repeated to you twice. Just admit you didn't understand (smacks head) - and there were SUPPOSED to be 13, but only 5 (FIVE) made it to market, with the other 8 delayed - which AGAIN, is EXACTLY what I originally said.Seriously rdjam at least take a glance at your post (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9076672&&#post9076672) before you tell me that I am wrong since people can actually see what you posted. Also 13 PS3 games did make it to market in the US and how do you not know that?


You make every simple discussion difficult with sheer obstructiveness sometimes.I take it that obstructiveness is your word for the truth? Honestly rdjam you are going out of your way not to answer my question which should be pretty easy to answer. Once again do you think that MPEG-4 AVC HP is capable of great video quality at the moment?


The A1 and XA1 were both fully compliant with HDi at launch, a very slight mod was made to improve operation.From what I have heard that isn't true for Universal's U-Control HD DVD titles which required the 2.0 firmware update to work.

Err, question1: "Fully compliant" means, err, "Fully compliant"...Let's see. So, they wouldn't work with certain iHD features if those were put on discs, but you claim that they were "fully compliant". Doesn't seem so obvious. Just to be clear, your definition of "fully compliant" allows that they not work with certain iHD features, right? If it doesn't, then how would you explain that when they wouldn't work with certain iHD features at that point? I'm guessing that you can actually answer the question instead of just repeating the words "Fully compliant".
Question 2: Why don't you tell me what it fixed then - since the question implies that you even know...I don't know the exact iHD things that were implemented in the 2.0 firmware. The U-Control on "The Fast and the Furious" wouldn't work without the changes in 2.0 and I believe the same is true for "King Kong". You are the one who made the claim that this was a "very slight mod", so how about telling us why you made that claim.

As far as BD-J, I bet they are adding support for certain features, but I don't have any specifics.

--Darin

Phew - OK , time for some NEWS :)

Check this one out - "Optical HD Battle May Be Over: HD DVD Wins"

http://news.digitaltrends.com/talkback158.html

They even mention the HD NOW petition campaign :D
Be that as it may, with a 4x to 6x advantage by year end, you’d have to conclude that HD-DVD has reached a point where it can’t lose and Blu-Ray is only now in a position to ensure both platforms lose.

I wonder just how far did Mr. Enderle go betwixt his buttcheeks to pull that bit of crapola out into the light of day.. :eek:

I call BS on Robbie... :rolleyes:

b2b

Do you see a difference?

Picture quality poll (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9096306&&#post9096306)
Audio quality poll (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9096789&&#post9096789)Wow. What a dumb idea. Only a tiny minority of people can compare BD vs. HD-DVD PQ with the same movie on the same equipment.

There's no need for a poll like this. There are numerous review sites out that have reviewed hundreds of movies. The results are already in. The people who are lying can be objectively exposed.

Phew - OK , time for some NEWS :)

Check this one out - "Optical HD Battle May Be Over: HD DVD Wins"

http://news.digitaltrends.com/talkback158.html

They even mention the HD NOW petition campaign :D



I'm sorry, I still don't understand the point of your petition - for two basic reasons;

First - it's an interent petition that lists emails - I mean really.
Second - wouldn't all the studios (including Sony) kinda assume that everyone, and I mean everyone who bought an HD-DVD player would like them to release on HD-DVD? Does your poll mean that 98% of people who have bought an HD-DVD player really don't want MGM to release their movies on HD-DVD because you only have ~2000 emails?

The studios will look at two things; number of players sold and number of movies sold. Your oft mention of the poll reminds me of my uncle who sells AmWay. BTW, have you heard the good news about AmWay?

BTW, have you heard the good news about AmWay?Pretty off topic, but reminds me of the bumper sticker that says something like, "Have too many friends - join Amway." :)

--Darin

Wow. What a dumb idea.Rob is like sunshine on a cloudy day.

http://www.portlandmercury.com/blogtown/files/2006/05/ray-of-sunshine.gif

I call BS on Robbie...

I wonder if BS was called on Robbie back when he predicted Blu-ray.

Do you believe that that a HD-DVD enabled HTPC running at 72 Hz must process the 24p to 60i first, and connot simply frame-triple the native stream of the disc, and deal with the additonal streams as need be (perhaps frame-repeating or decimating?).

Do you suppose that a future uber-HD disc player w/ 120hz outputs would be prohibited from simply repeating the 24p frames 5x and the 60i IME frames 2 times, and instead MUST operate at 60i internally as per HD DVD spec?


the specs clearly say it must. Now a player manufacturer could say "who gives a f@ck if the disks don't play right" but if it is build to spec it must and I posted the exact excerpt from the white papers.

Don't have to. Its been done (1080 @72 Hz) since WinDVD was used on a Toshiba notebook with a HD DVD drive -- last July. (see post by Ben W.)

bob. Do you work for WinDVD? if not, how do you know how it is doing the internal processing?

I wonder if BS was called on Robbie back when he predicted Blu-ray.

I read his other article too. At least in that one he wasn't pulling numbers "from you know where" with 25 days left in the year.

b2b

I read his other article too. At least in that one he wasn't pulling numbers "from you know where" with 25 days left in the year.


Of course not. Somehow when it was a Blu-ray article it was legit. Now all of a sudden since he's changed his position, he's pulling numbers from his butt.

How could I guess? ;)

Of course not. Somehow when it was a Blu-ray article it was legit. Now all of a sudden since he's changed his position, he's pulling numbers from his butt.

How could I guess? ;)

Given the range of PS3 estimates, does 2 - 6 million HD-DVD players by years end sound like anything real ??

I call double BS on Robbie...

Once for coming up with the BS and once for thinking people would believe it.. ;)

b2b

I read his other article too. At least in that one he wasn't pulling numbers "from you know where" with 25 days left in the year.

b2b

Could you please tell us the numbers you take issue with? I've read the full article and he's making a number of points that are similar to points I've been making.

.....it simply did not seem reasonable that Sony would put their PlayStation franchise at risk for anything but a technology they were absolutely certain they could bring to market on time.

The problems with Blu-Ray have created extreme cost and execution problems for Sony and now their premier division (instead of being the profit center for Sony) is predicting they will take a $1.5B loss next year largely resulting from this decision.

All that being said, the killing blow may have been done by Microsoft who decided to bring to market a $200 HD-DVD option for their Xbox 360 which has been in market a year longer than Sony and is projected to have a near 20x installed base advantage by year end (10M Xbox 360 to 600K PS3).

If you go to Amazon and look you can see HD-DVDs are solidly ahead and this is before the impact of either the Microsoft or the HP moves, many of which won’t be opened until Christmas or haven’t yet been shipped (HP).

Talk, oh Talk? Care to talk some more about BD-J compliance? First the Sammy, now the Sony, and if Pioneer decides to pull a Sony, later the Pioneer.C'mon Alex, BDP-S1 out of the box plays Speed, League of Extraordinary Gentlemen which are both BD-J titles. At least those are working maybe as same level as U-Control titles on Toshiba@1.2 and 1.4 :). My A1 with 1.2 even didn't play feature of King Kong at all, just played first Universal HD DVD logo and stopped with error message, so I was forced to update the player, though.

Updates will be required for all next gen players including Sony, Panasonic, Samsung, PS3, also Toshiba and Xbox360 add-on to address/fix imcompatibilities or bugs. Those formats are quite complex to be bug free.

Given the range of PS3 estimates, does 2 - 6 million HD-DVD players by years end sound like anything real ??
Good catch on that, fuzzy math to say the least. But where does he come up with this:
Note that both projections are aggressive but Sony was supposed to originally ship 2M PS3s into the market during the 4th quarter and actual numbers (given they had under 200K at launch) may be closer to 400K. And with a recall possible there is a chance they might not even make that.
News I missed?

Could you please tell us the numbers you take issue with? I've read the full article and he's making a number of points that are similar to points I've been making.

.....it simply did not seem reasonable that Sony would put their PlayStation franchise at risk for anything but a technology they were absolutely certain they could bring to market on time.

The problems with Blu-Ray have created extreme cost and execution problems for Sony and now their premier division (instead of being the profit center for Sony) is predicting they will take a $1.5B loss next year largely resulting from this decision.

All that being said, the killing blow may have been done by Microsoft who decided to bring to market a $200 HD-DVD option for their Xbox 360 which has been in market a year longer than Sony and is projected to have a near 20x installed base advantage by year end (10M Xbox 360 to 600K PS3).

If you go to Amazon and look you can see HD-DVDs are solidly ahead and this is before the impact of either the Microsoft or the HP moves, many of which won’t be opened until Christmas or haven’t yet been shipped (HP).
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9098646&&#post9098646

b2b

Given the range of PS3 estimates, does 2 - 6 million HD-DVD players by years end sound like anything real ??

I call double BS on Robbie...

Once for coming up with the BS and once for thinking people would believe it.. ;)

b2b

Can you expand on this? He didn't say 2 - 6 million HD-DVD players. Are you making an anology here?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9098646&&#post9098646

b2b


Add to this that the Xbox 360 HD-DVD drive is for movies only, so each one counts for movie viewing while PS3s may not be used to watch movies and you have a situation where the active movie player advantage by year-end should be between 4x and 6x better for HD-DVD over Blu-Ray.

He should have broken down the math in the article, but let me take a swag at it for you.

Mr. Fujii of Toshiba is estimating 300,000 HD-DVD players by the end of 2006. This includes G1, G2 and add-ons. All of which Toshiba has some visibility into, as they have to manufacture all of them.

EA has stated that they don't believe Sony can deliver more than 500,000 - 800,000 PS3s by the end of the year. Rob is using a number of 600,000.

Assuming that 10% of PS3 buyers adopt BD movies (a generous number in my opinion), that equates to 600,000 x .10 = 60,000. Remember the quote from the CEO of Time Warner?

300,000 vs. 60,000 is 5 to 1. Rob hedges with his 4x to 6x comment to put some buffer in his estimate. I believe this is how he is deriving his estimate.

Add to this that the Xbox 360 HD-DVD drive is for movies only, so each one counts for movie viewing while PS3s may not be used to watch movies and you have a situation where the active movie player advantage by year-end should be between 4x and 6x better for HD-DVD over Blu-Ray.

He should have broken down the math in the article, but let me take a swag at it for you.

Mr. Fujii of Toshiba is estimating 300,000 HD-DVD players by the end of 2006. This includes G1, G2 and add-ons. All of which Toshiba has some visibility into, as they have to manufacture all of them.

EA has stated that they don't believe Sony can deliver more than 500,000 - 800,000 PS3s by the end of the year. Rob is using a number of 600,000.

Assuming that 10% of PS3 buyers adopt BD movies (a generous number in my opinion), that equates to 600,000 x .10 = 60,000. Remember the quote from the CEO of Time Warner?

300,000 vs. 60,000 is 5 to 1. Rob hedges with his 4x to 6x comment to put some buffer in his estimate. I believe this is how he is deriving his estimate.

If you want to assume the very best for HD-DVD, the very worst for PS3 (plus all the other BD players) and also assume that all 500,000 of those BD discs included in the box with the PS3 immediately get tossed into the trash.. sure, your numbers make perfect sense.. ;)

b2b

There is an interview of the SHARP CTO&VP whose division is doing the R&D for the blue diode.

It is in Q&A style.
Q: Why choose this time to mass produce the blue diode?
A: The blue diode mass production process is mature and demand is there because blu-ray and HD DVD is about to jump start. Although the burner comes first, they are expensive. The market for the burners will take time to grow. The huge demand will be limited to ROM only CE players for now. The recorder will catch up gradually. Because the mainstream/cheap CE players has now come to the market, our blue diode business finally come to fruit. ….. Our current offer is low power blue diode for ROM application. High power blue diode R&D is underway.

I am too lazy to translate the rest. Sharp's blu-ray player use this diode. MTTF is 10k hours. So I guess PS3 will use Sharp's blue diode also? What is the cheap CE players Sharp has talked about? PS3? It couldn't be A2. Because Toshiba is doing the ROM?

Look familar ??? Our boy Robbie hard at work... :rolleyes:
By Rob Enderle
www.TechNewsWorld.com
Part of the ECT News Network
12/04/06 4:00 AM PT
http://www.ecommercetimes.com/story/must-read/54532.html

What's he predicting now... 2 million Xbox addons ... ?? ;)

b2b

There is an interview of the SHARP CTO&VP whose division is doing the R&D for the blue diode.

It is in Q&A style.
Q: Why choose this time to mass produce the blue diode?
A: The blue diode mass production process is mature and demand is there because blu-ray and HD DVD is about to jump start. Although the burner comes first, they are expensive. The market for the burners will take time to grow. The huge demand will be limited to ROM only CE players for now. The recorder will catch up gradually. Because the mainstream/cheap CE players has now come to the market, our blue diode business finally come to fruit. ….. Our current offer is low power blue diode for ROM application. High power blue diode R&D is underway.

I am too lazy to translate the rest. Sharp's blu-ray player use this diode. MTTF is 10k hours. So I guess PS3 will use Sharp's blue diode also? What is the cheap CE players Sharp has talked about? PS3? It couldn't be A2. Because Toshiba is doing the ROM?
Sony makes their own diodes..

b2b

Look familar ??? Our boy Robbie hard at work... :rolleyes:

http://www.ecommercetimes.com/story/must-read/54532.html

What's he predicting now... 2 million Xbox addons ... ?? ;)

b2bThis part:
Unfortunately, there were massive production problems and cost overruns, and Sony could only get a fraction of the systems into the market channel. As a result, Microsoft is projected to have 10 million Xbox 360s by the end of this year, against Sony's 600,000 PS3s. If Microsoft has just a 20 percent attach rate for its US$200 drive -- which is selling out, by the way -- it will have nearly 4x the number of HD DVD drives in consumer hands.would seem to indicate that he doesn't understand why Sony is having trouble making enough systems. While Microsoft might be able to get as many blue lasers as Sony, to even imply that they could have 2 million in people's hands by the end of the year seems fairly ridiculous. He also seems to assume that Microsoft's number of 10 million by the end of the year was in consumer's hands, when I believe the only claim I've seen from them was for the number shipped out.

Even ignoring manufacturing limitations, if he thinks 20% of XBOX360 owners will spend something like $199 for an add-on, I wonder what percentage of PS3 owners he thinks will using it for watching HD movies without buying anything like that (maybe the $25 or so remote though). Those comments of 20% make me think of crazy stuff I thought as a young kid, like wouldn't it be great if somebody came up and just gave me a suitcase full of money.

--Darin

I'm sorry, I still don't understand the point of your petition - for two basic reasons;

First - it's an interent petition that lists emails - I mean really.
Second - wouldn't all the studios (including Sony) kinda assume that everyone, and I mean everyone who bought an HD-DVD player would like them to release on HD-DVD? Does your poll mean that 98% of people who have bought an HD-DVD player really don't want MGM to release their movies on HD-DVD because you only have ~2000 emails?

The studios will look at two things; number of players sold and number of movies sold. Your oft mention of the poll reminds me of my uncle who sells AmWay. BTW, have you heard the good news about AmWay?
Firstly, we do not list emails of anyone who signs the petitions, out of respect for their privacy.

Second, the purpose of the poll is to attract attention to the sales lead of the format.

Third, you don't like it? Don't concern yourself with it...

Firstly, we do not list emails of anyone who signs the petitions, out of respect for their privacy.Do you just provide a number, or do you give the studios some kind of indication that differentiates the people? Just curious.

--Darin

Now now - attack the info not the poster, remember?As far as the info, I am very curious what you think about his postulating about Microsoft possibly having 2 million add-ons in consumer's hands by the end of the year. Do you think it is realistic, ridiculous, or something else?

--Darin

Look familar ??? Our boy Robbie hard at work... :rolleyes:

http://www.ecommercetimes.com/story/must-read/54532.html

What's he predicting now... 2 million Xbox addons ... ?? ;)

b2b
Yes, but he didn't say by christmas - that was your contribution.

There's nothing incorrect in what he has actually said.

Add to this that the Xbox 360 HD-DVD drive is for movies only, so each one counts for movie viewing while PS3s may not be used to watch movies and you have a situation where the active movie player advantage by year-end should be between 4x and 6x better for HD-DVD over Blu-Ray.

He should have broken down the math in the article, but let me take a swag at it for you.I think your method is realistic and possible. Unfortunately, he doesn't seem to have used anything nearly as rational.

--Darin

Now now - attack the info not the poster, remember?

Robbie isn't a poster... ;)

b2b

Yes, but he didn't say by christmas - that was your contribution.

There's nothing incorrect in what he has actually said.His article refers to the end of the year. Anything beyond that and he would no longer be comparing to the number of PS3s by the end of the year, but by the number of PS3s at that date. So, his comments about 4x would be invalid and very misleading if he didn't mean by the end of the year for the XBOX360 add-on.

I'm really curious about whether you are going to continue to defend these comments:
Unfortunately, there were massive production problems and cost overruns, and Sony could only get a fraction of the systems into the market channel. As a result, Microsoft is projected to have 10 million Xbox 360s by the end of this year, against Sony's 600,000 PS3s. If Microsoft has just a 20 percent attach rate for its US$200 drive -- which is selling out, by the way -- it will have nearly 4x the number of HD DVD drives in consumer hands.
--Darin

I think your method is realistic and possible. Unfortunately, he doesn't seem to have used anything nearly as rational.

--Darin

We don't know his methodology, so we can't say if it was rational or not. Considering that he is likely looking at the same interviews and data that we are (or simply reading this thread ;)), his calculation could very well be what I layed out.

I am asking how many PS3 games were available to buy at launch...


About 12-15 I think. At least that is about the number I saw on the shelves at BB and Future Shop here.

Gary

We don't know his methodology, so we can't say if it was rational or not. Considering that he is likely looking at the same interviews and data that we are (or simply reading this thread ;)), his calculation could very well be what I layed out.He gave us an idea of his method here:

http://www.ecommercetimes.com/story/must-read/54532.html
Unfortunately, there were massive production problems and cost overruns, and Sony could only get a fraction of the systems into the market channel. As a result, Microsoft is projected to have 10 million Xbox 360s by the end of this year, against Sony's 600,000 PS3s. If Microsoft has just a 20 percent attach rate for its US$200 drive -- which is selling out, by the way -- it will have nearly 4x the number of HD DVD drives in consumer hands.--Darin

About 12-15 I think. At least that is about the number I saw on the shelves at BB and Future Shop here.I realized later that I think rdjam was talking about titles in Japan and some of us were talking about titles in the US. I don't know how many were available in Japan.

--Darin

He gave us an idea of his method here:

http://www.ecommercetimes.com/story/must-read/54532.html
--Darin

Darin,

Yes, I just read this article and it looks like you're correct. I don't agree with this methodology. If he's doing his math based on the idea that Microsoft could sell 2 Million add-ons in the near term, he's simply wrong. Microsoft could no more make 2 Million add-ons in the near term than Sony could make 2 Million PS3s in the near term. Every indication is blue laser supply simply is not that big currently.

If you want to assume the very best for HD-DVD, the very worst for PS3 (plus all the other BD players) and also assume that all 500,000 of those BD discs included in the box with the PS3 immediately get tossed into the trash.. sure, your numbers make perfect sense.. ;)

b2b

Not at all b2b. The HD-DVD numbers are from the company producing the players. In addition Mr. Fujii raised his March 07 estimate from 500,000 to 600,000 units. He might be full of it, but so far I haven't seen the same level of fast and loose play with manufacturing numbers from the HD-DVD people that we've seen from Sony.

As for the PS3 BD adoption rate, I take it you feel that the CEO of Time Warner is full of it as well?

Parsons also said he didn't expect Sony's highly anticipated PlayStation 3, which can also play movies in the Blu-ray format, to have a big impact on video viewing habits, saying people were more likely to use the consoles for playing games.

Personally I think 10% is generous. Just because there is a copy of Talladega Nights (2/5 PQ http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/talladeganights.html ;)) in the first 500,000 boxes doesn't mean that you have 500,000 BD movie watchers who will go buy movies.

But seriously....would you tell us what you believe is a realistic percentage of PS3 buyers who will become BD movie buyers? (during the next 6 months....if you need a time frame)

Well, so we get a logical explanation why the average HD-DVD PQ is going down, which is at the very least worthy of a debate – and the reaction from the HD-DVD supporters is 4 pages of silence? Here it is again:

It is because VC-1 at 12-18MBit/s avg. needs alot of hand tuning to avoid posterization in critical scenes. eg. the encoder "sees" a sky with no details, just some gradients. Because of the tight bitrate budget it applies very little bandwidth to this area of the scene which appears to be very easy to compress. BUT because there is no real detail present in something like a clear sky posterization of any kind (due to overcompressing this area, not using dithering ...) will be very visible, whereas is richly textured areas it will not. Solution to the problem: Extensive hand tuning on the part of the compressionist is needed to manually apply more bandwidth to problematic scenes. Or Amir and Co improve the encoder's ability to recognize those scenes automatically. Or we take the brute force route and use sufficient bitrates.

Releases like King Kong get the full treatment - massive amount of hand tuning to make VC-1 shine at the bitrates available. Most other releases don't get this royal treatment so therefor vissible artifacts like posterization are more obvious.

So the tighter bitrate budget of HD-DVD does seem to be a problem after all...

Here is another HD DVD Win's article, it has a link to a HD DVD pettition but I dont think it is the same one as rdjam's, I could be wrong though

Article: Optical HD Battle May Be Over: HD-DVD Wins (http://news.digitaltrends.com/talkback158.html)

Petition Link (http://www.petitionspot.com/petitions/HD_DVD_Studio_Support)

C'mon Alex, BDP-S1 out of the box plays Speed, League of Extraordinary Gentlemen which are both BD-J titles. At least those are working maybe as same level as U-Control titles on Toshiba@1.2 and 1.4 :). My A1 with 1.2 even didn't play feature of King Kong at all, just played first Universal HD DVD logo and stopped with error message, so I was forced to update the player, though.

Updates will be required for all next gen players including Sony, Panasonic, Samsung, PS3, also Toshiba and Xbox360 add-on to address/fix imcompatibilities or bugs. Those formats are quite complex to be bug free.I agree 100%. I have posted in other threads that both BD-J and HDi are works in progress. There's nothing wrong with that in my book.

I just wanted to call Talk out (yet again) for preaching so voraciously from the mountain that all Blu-ray players are de facto BD-J compliant. They are not. He called me out when I intimated the Sammy wasn't (it was released before the compliance disc was locked down), and voila, it wasn't. Now Sony admits the BDP-S1 isn't BD-J compliant. The Pioneer has issues as well (go figure :)).

His article refers to the end of the year. Anything beyond that and he would no longer be comparing to the number of PS3s by the end of the year, but by the number of PS3s at that date. So, his comments about 4x would be invalid and very misleading if he didn't mean by the end of the year for the XBOX360 add-on.

I'm really curious about whether you are going to continue to defend these comments:

--DarinUnfortunately, there were massive production problems and cost overruns, and Sony could only get a fraction of the systems into the market channel. As a result, Microsoft is projected to have 10 million Xbox 360s by the end of this year, against Sony's 600,000 PS3s. If Microsoft has just a 20 percent attach rate for its US$200 drive -- which is selling out, by the way -- it will have nearly 4x the number of HD DVD drives in consumer hands.

Like I said, he didn't say the 20% of HD DVD drives that attched would do so by the end of the year, which was your "extension of his statement" that I criticised.

Yes, he does use MS' number of 10 million by the end of the year - but he does not state that the 20% would attach this year.

So if I see statements that are not what was said, then yes, I will point them out :)

Peace...

Well, so we get a logical explanation why the average HD-DVD PQ is going down, which is at the very least worthy of a debate – and the reaction from the HD-DVD supporters is 4 pages of silence? Here it is again:

So the tighter bitrate budget of HD-DVD does seem to be a problem after all...
:D F.. U.. D..

Firstly, there were tons of replies by the time you posted this here, just by looking at your timestamp, even including Amir.

Second, your rush to judgement and assumption on the bitrate is notably funny. :p

...



So the tighter bitrate budget of HD-DVD does seem to be a problem after all...


Who is TheLion again? I can't seem to recall his industry involvement, credentials, etc. :rolleyes:

Unfortunately, there were massive production problems and cost overruns, and Sony could only get a fraction of the systems into the market channel. As a result, Microsoft is projected to have 10 million Xbox 360s by the end of this year, against Sony's 600,000 PS3s. If Microsoft has just a 20 percent attach rate for its US$200 drive -- which is selling out, by the way -- it will have nearly 4x the number of HD DVD drives in consumer hands.

I wasn't aware the word IF now constituted a factual prediction. But I guess when you have the desperate need to attack the credibility of anyone who doesn't or no longer blindly follow the Blu-ray path, word twisting is just as good as anything else. :rolleyes:

Disclosure:

Rob Enderle is President of the Promar Group, one of whose major clients is Toshiba.

http://www.promar.com/RobEnderle.html
http://www.promar.com/clients.htm

:D F.. U.. D..

You start to sound like a broken record when faced with HD-DVD problems...

Firstly, there were tons of replies by the time you posted this here, just by looking at your timestamp, even including Amir.

Firstly, most of those replies confirmed that other people also see banding and other artifacts on HD-DVDs. The only one to respond to the idea that the reason of these artifacts may be an insufficient bitrate budget was indeed Amir. BUT even he didn't dismiss that idea, he was very careful and said that a lot of things could be the reason for those artifacts (which he didn't denied existing):

I hope you don’t think I am picking on your points too much . I am just being critical of diagnosing issues, with too little information, yet firmly pointing the finger at some component. There simply is no data here to show that compression artifacts here are more at fault than anything else.

Second, your rush to judgement and assumption on the bitrate is notably funny. :p

What's so funny about it? First of all it was TheLion's point which I just repeated because it makes sense to me. Secondly, do you have an alternative explanation for the artifacts people are seeing?

Who is TheLion again? I can't seem to recall his industry involvement, credentials, etc.

I'm sorry, but who are you again? I have no idea what TheLion does for a living, but his posts show quite clearly that he knows what he's talking about. At least Amir shows him much more respect than you do, agrees with him on quite a few technical points and is very careful in critizising others (see above). Remember, attack the post, not the poster. So if you have a good explanation for the artifacts lots of users are describing in the other thread I would very much like to hear it.

FWIW this is only a format issue insofar as BD potentially has more space and higher bandwith. If the same transfer is used (by a neutral studio), obviously the artifacts will be the same.

I wasn't aware the word IF now constituted a factual prediction. But I guess when you have the desperate need to attack the credibility of anyone who doesn't or no longer blindly follow the Blu-ray path, word twisting is just as good as anything else. :rolleyes:
That sentence, by itself, appears conditional. When you read the "Wrapping Up" section, however, he conveniently omits any type of conditions when he says, "Be that as it may, with a 4x to 6x advantage by year end, you’d have to conclude that HD-DVD has reached a point where it can’t lose and Blu-Ray is only now in a position to ensure both platforms lose."
That is a hard prediction concerning year-end numbers.

Typical fallacy. Posit a pipe-dream scenario and later use it as a factual forecast to support your predictions.

Well if that's your "player" of choice then I guess you're golden... How does the PiP look BTW... ;)

b2b

Ths point is: you can have a valid player that doesn't have to convert to 60i.

Personally, I would prefer to that the player follow the framerate of the primary stream and decimate the the secondary streams as need be, rather than introduce cadence artifacts in to the primary stream, for the benefit of a secondary stream that: a) is much smaller anyway, and b) may never even be selected for display.

the specs clearly say it must. Now a player manufacturer could say "who gives a f@ck if the disks don't play right" but if it is build to spec it must and I posted the exact excerpt from the white papers.

Then please post the spec that says that.

Here's what you posted:

5.2.1 Video Source Standards and Resolutions

Key Performance Requirements:
1) In the case of 60 Hz region, 3:2 pull down flag is mandatory for movie (film content), which means that synchronization between video, audio, sub-picture, and advanced objects follows 60 Hz vertical synchronization signal.

Clearly the flag is mandatory.

Now if you want to inerpret the rest of that as saying the the rest of that applies to a player wishing to output 24p (which would really make it a non "60hz region" player), then I diasgree.

See Kjack's pater post as to the difference between what is MANDATED (the flags), and what is a suggestion.

Quote:
Do you believe that that a HD-DVD enabled HTPC running at 72 Hz must process the 24p to 60i first, and connot simply frame-triple the native stream of the disc, and deal with the additonal streams as need be (perhaps frame-repeating or decimating?).

Do you suppose that a future uber-HD disc player w/ 120hz outputs would be prohibited from simply repeating the 24p frames 5x and the 60i IME frames 2 times, and instead MUST operate at 60i internally as per HD DVD spec?




the specs clearly say it must. Now a player manufacturer could say "who gives a f@ck if the disks don't play right" but if it is build to spec it must and I posted the exact excerpt from the white papers.

amir already mentionned a while ago how windvd worked for 24p and that it took the stream right at the output of the decoder (24p) before it was processed to 60i