HiDef DVD News VII - News Only : AND WE MEAN IT: NEWS ONLY

[rdjam]

You start to sound like a broken record...
:yawn: :p

[dialog_gvf]

World Trade Center on Blu-ray review (http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/worldtradecenter.html)

Two discs, one a BD50 and 1.5Mbps DD audio?

Gary

[Eternal_Sunshine]

:yawn: :p

Will yawning make the banding disappear?

[scaesare]

Well then your proof will be the day when "players" do as you say, doing whatever they feel like doing.. As a note.. I wouldn't be holding your breath waiting for 24p straight from the disc... ;)

b2b

Well I was going to extend you a nice bet as to when we'd see a player w/ 24p output, knowing full well that there are already software players doing so. (Heck I even used it as an example in my post). But as I read along, the it was already high-lighted again.

So here ya go, b2b: Sigs on the line... I say we'll see another HD DVD player with 24p output before the the middle of '07.

Whatcha say?

[b2bonez]

Disclosure:

Rob Enderle is President of the Promar Group, one of whose major clients is Toshiba.

http://www.promar.com/RobEnderle.html
http://www.promar.com/clients.htm

Thanks for digging that up. Amazing how all of these "pundits" always end up having a client list.... ;)

b2b

[b2bonez]

Well I was going to extend you a nice bet as to when we'd see a player w/ 24p output, knowing full well that there are already software players doing so. (Heck I even used it as an example in my post). But as I read along, the it was already high-lighted again.

So here ya go, b2b: Sigs on the line... I say we'll see another HD DVD player with 24p output before the the middle of '07.

Whatcha say?

I don't undersand what you are saying in this post... (??)

b2b

[2Channel]

You've gone silent b2b. You seem to feel that 10% of PS3 buyers becoming BD movie buyers is unrealistically low. Can you tell us what you believe is a reasonable adoption rate?

[WiFi-Spy]

World Trade Center on Blu-ray review (http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/worldtradecenter.html)

Two discs, one a BD50 and 1.5Mbps DD audio?

Gary

how can it have 1.5Mb/s DD? DD is limited to 640k, unless its using DD+.

I think highdef digest is confused, and just assumed that it was the same as on the HD DVD.

[darinp2]

Like I said, he didn't say the 20% of HD DVD drives that attched would do so by the end of the year, which was your "extension of his statement" that I criticised.

Yes, he does use MS' number of 10 million by the end of the year - but he does not state that the 20% would attach this year.

So if I see statements that are not what was said, then yes, I will point them out :)

Peace...I honestly don't understand why you are arguing against this. Do you understand that the 600,000 number he used for the PS3 was for the end of the year and if the 20% for the add-on wasn't by the end of the year, then he couldn't use 600,000 as the divisor to get his "nearly 4x"? And that if it was for some time next year or the year after, then the run rate would have to be nearly 20x for XBOX360s sold in order to maintain nearly 4x, using his logic of 20% and 4x? I don't think he should have to put "end of this year" in every single sentence for it to be clear that he was talking about the end of this year. And if he wasn't talking about the end of this year, then his logic is severly flawed since he would have to use the number of PS3s at whatever point he wanted the "nearly 4x" to stick.

If you still believe that the 20% he used wasn't for the end of the year, please tell us how he came to his "nearly 4x" in:
If Microsoft has just a 20 percent attach rate for its US$200 drive -- which is selling out, by the way -- it will have nearly 4x the number of HD DVD drives in consumer hands."given his 600,000 number for the PS3 for the end of the year and that the PS3 sales won't stop on December 31st.

--Darin

[darinp2]

how can it have 1.5Mb/s DD? DD is limited to 640k, unless its using DD+.

I think highdef digest is confused, and just assumed that it was the same as on the HD DVD.Sounds like somebody with a PS3 should check this one. I don't get it either.

--Darin

[mikemorel]

BetaNews, maybe biased, but...since it appears the hi-def dvd wars will be won or lost by game consoles...

Has Xbox 360 Already Won the War? (http://www.betanews.com/article/Has_Xbox_360_Already_Won_the_War/1165514003)

Twice in the past week, Microsoft officials have mentioned the magic 10 million number. It has significance, as in each of the previous video game generations, the first to that level ended up being the best selling console overall.
...
Many analysts are cautioning that the company may be setting itself up for embarrassment and retaliation from shareholders if it fails to meet this goal. However, in an interview with Bloomberg, Moore upped the ante even more.

Asked by the news service whether the company was likely to beat that outlook, Moore agreed, saying the Thanksgiving weekend was a stellar one for Microsoft and Xbox.

Numbers obtained by BetaNews seem to back up Moore's claim. Sources say the company sold as many as 100,000 consoles per day in the period surrounding Thanksgiving weekend. Numbers were on the high end of expectations, according to the data.

Additionally, Microsoft was helped out by weaker than expected sales of both the Wii and PS3 during the same period, indicating that shoppers looking for a next-gen console may have been opting for Microsoft's entrant over others due to availability.

While the most recent data shows six million Xbox 360 consoles sold as of September 30, internal data indicates Microsoft may have sold more than eight million units as of the end of November.

Reaching the 10 million goal is just now a matter of sales: about a week ago the company shipped its ten millionth console. And from the looks of things, hitting the mark may not be that difficult.

Industry watchers are beginning to believe, too. "Microsoft's lead seems unbeatable now, fueled by a one year head start, the raging success of Gears of War as 2006's killer app, and most recently, a blitzkrieg of promotion for Halo 3, scheduled for 2007," GigaOM's Wagner James Au said.

[b2bonez]

You've gone silent b2b. You seem to feel that 10% of PS3 buyers becoming BD movie buyers is unrealistically low. Can you tell us what you believe is a reasonable adoption rate?

I would venture to guess that > 90% of the 500,000 people who buy a PS3 with the included BD movie disc will choose to pop it into the drive and watch the movie. What their BD movie buying/renting habits from that point on is a something that is beyond my estimation (there are no precedents for this kind of product feature).

I have talked to the local Hollywood rental location and they are going to start having both BD and HD-DVD discs. So with a 100% chance that every PS3 will play BD movies, all that is different is picking the BD movie vs DVD or HD-DVD for a simple rental.

That's before all of the BD studios start marketing to that 100% BD movie playing base that PS3 represents.. ;)

Fox is already doing that as evidenced by having Xmen 3 right in the case next to the PS3 games....

b2b

[g55555sim]

While Microsoft might be able to get as many blue lasers as Sony, to even imply that they could have 2 million in people's hands by the end of the year seems fairly ridiculous. He also seems to assume that Microsoft's number of 10 million by the end of the year was in consumer's hands, when I believe the only claim I've seen from them was for the number shipped out. --Darin ouch !! good news for you .. a report has named a MS spokeperson raising the Xbox year end figure to more than 10mil and changing the status of the figure from 'shipped' to 'sold'.

http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/multimedia/display/20061206232845.html

[g55555sim]

Microsoft Promises to Sell Over 10 Million Xbox 360 by Year End

opps this is from Reuters :

“This holiday, we expect to have sold in excess of 10 million units worldwide,” a Microsoft spokeswoman said, according to a news-story by Reuters agency.

That “sold” number refers to units “sold into retail”, which refers to units in transit, units sitting in store inventories and machines sold to consumers, the news-agency noted. Previously, the software giant hoped to ship about 10 million of Xbox 360 consoles by the end of the year, whereas by-mid 2007 approximately 13 to 15 million were expected to be installed. It is unclear whether the number of consoles to be sold in 6-7 months time was also increased.

http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=technologyNews&storyID=2006-12-06T211849Z_01_NC6397611_RTRUKOC_0_US-MICROSOFT-XBOX360.xml&WTmodLoc=Home-C5-technologyNews-3

[scaesare]

I don't undersand what you are saying in this post... (??)

b2b


I'll bet ya we'll see another 24p-capable HD dVD player by end of June '07.

Whoever wins gets to author the other's AVS sig for a month.

[briankmonkey]

Microsoft Promises to Sell Over 10 Million Xbox 360 by Year End

opps this is from Reuters :



That “sold” number refers to units “sold into retail”, which refers to units in transit, units sitting in store inventories and machines sold to consumers, the news-agency noted. Previously, the software giant hoped to ship about 10 million of Xbox 360 consoles by the end of the year, whereas by-mid 2007 approximately 13 to 15 million were expected to be installed. It is unclear whether the number of consoles to be sold in 6-7 months time was also increased.

http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=technologyNews&storyID=2006-12-06T211849Z_01_NC6397611_RTRUKOC_0_US-MICROSOFT-XBOX360.xml&WTmodLoc=Home-C5-technologyNews-3

back and forth back and forth... Before it was:

Microsoft Corp. Chairman and Chief Software Architect Bill Gates today staked the claim that the Xbox 360™ system will have a 10 million-unit head start by the time the competition enters the market

http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/2006/may06/05-09E32006BriefingPR.mspx

Why not just say they'll have 40 million or billion then switch it back down to 8 million :p

oh yeah, another MS exect already said: "J Allard (Microsoft Corporate Vice President), who heads Microsoft’s video-game efforts, has boldly predicted that one billion people will eventually play games on the new console."

lmfao

[2Channel]

Another article on the demise of the Playstation franchise. I believe this whole event qualifies as a greek tragedy.....hubris, causing your own demise.....

http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=5226

While no one can argue that the PlayStation 3 is a technological marvel, analysts say that Sony bet too heavily on hardware for the latest console generation, and because of that, it has paid dearly for delays in manufacturing and high costs.


The delays and lack of hardware availability also gives competitors Nintendo and Microsoft greater opportunity at grabbing marketshare.

With the above in mind, it’s no wonder that some analysts are pegging Sony to go the way of Sega.

BD supporters better hope that b2b is right and that BD movie adoption rates are huge among PS3 buyers. Personally, I've got my money on that Dick Parsons fellow from Time Warner. ;)

[b2bonez]

I'll bet ya we'll see another 24p-capable HD dVD player by end of June '07.

Whoever wins gets to author the other's AVS sig for a month.

Nope.. don't think so.. Besides your sig is perfect as is. I wouldn't change a thing... ;)

b2b

[darinp2]

ouch !! good news for you .. a report has named a MS spokeperson raising the Xbox year end figure to more than 10mil and changing the status of the figure from 'shipped' to 'sold'.

http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/multimedia/display/20061206232845.htmlI saw that they have basically raised their numbers. Looks like they are doing well. Now it will be interesting to see how add-on sales go. From looking around they are selling really well in my area, but I also notice that Amazon has them in stock, so they can be had by those who want them. They are also now down to #124 in sales for their area.

--Darin

[briankmonkey]

I forget to include how MS planned on 1 billion

On being asked (J.Allard) about the 1 billion prediction - “Well, we force everybody to go buy new hardware every five years. That helps.”

http://blog.taragana.com/index.php/archive/xbox-360-reaching-1-billion-people-interesting-interview-of-j-allard-microsoft-corporate-vice-president/

Yeah and MS anti-sony fans say Sony is arrogant. lol

[b2bonez]

Another article on the demise of the Playstation franchise. I believe this whole event qualifies as a greek tragedy.....hubris, causing your own demise.....

http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=5226

While no one can argue that the PlayStation 3 is a technological marvel, analysts say that Sony bet too heavily on hardware for the latest console generation, and because of that, it has paid dearly for delays in manufacturing and high costs.


The delays and lack of hardware availability also gives competitors Nintendo and Microsoft greater opportunity at grabbing marketshare.

With the above in mind, it’s no wonder that some analysts are pegging Sony to go the way of Sega.

BD supporters better hope that b2b is right and that BD movie adoption rates are huge among PS3 buyers. Personally, I've got my money on that Dick Parsons fellow from Time Warner. ;)

Dick needs to wake-up and smell the consoles. If he thinks that HD on disc is going to be built on the backs of standalone players in a "post haste" tempo then he is doomed..

BTW, wasn't it TW that was putting out all of those glowing (pass the bong dude... ;) ) HD sales predictions a few months ago ?? :)

b2b

[crussader]

BD supporters better hope that b2b is right and that BD movie adoption rates are huge among PS3 buyers.

I am guessing that initially a fairly large percentage of PS3 owners (70%?) will go out and pick up a movie or two. BD sales will spike and BD fans will stand up everywhere and shout victory. However, I don't believe the initial attach rates will be sustainable and we'll see a similar sales pattern to UMD.

The question is how big will the spike be in comparison to HD sales, and can HD weather the storm until the spike passes.

[briankmonkey]

All I know is now that I have Blu-ray I'm not buying or renting DVD unless it is unavoidable. DVD feels so dated. Blu-ray movies are gorgeous and sound fantastic :)

[chad_cincy]

oh yeah, another MS exect already said: "J Allard (Microsoft Corporate Vice President), who heads Microsoft’s video-game efforts, has boldly predicted that one billion people will eventually play games on the new console."

lmfao
I forget to include how MS planned on 1 billion

Quote:
On being asked (J.Allard) about the 1 billion prediction - “Well, we force everybody to go buy new hardware every five years. That helps.”


http://blog.taragana.com/index.php/...vice-president/

Yeah and MS anti-sony fans say Sony is arrogant. lol
Brian, too much koolaid?

J Allard's original quote:

If we work together to create games and experiences that really deliver on the promise of the HD era, as an industry we'll take games places they've never been before.

In the HD era, we are going to reach 1 billion people with our medium [see above ~Chad].

This is a great industry, it's a great business. Our revenues keep growing faster than music, than movies, than television. We're at the cutting edge of technology and the leading edge of imagination.

http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/exec/rbach/05-16-05E3.mspx
Follow up interview where Allard re-explained his 1 billion quote:
We're in the business that's facing higher production costs and we're not going to be able to increase the price of the consumer material. So I look at it and say, it looks good on paper, but if we want true growth we need to grow the market. Collectively we're not doing a good job, so we're not going to sell a billion Xbox 360s, I mean I'd love to, but collectively between handheld, PC and all the consoles, if the industry aspires to be as big as movies, music, TV, books, all the other entertainment mediums then a billion is a good number to aim for.

http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=120658
You're in danger of going off the deep end... :p

[briankmonkey]

I'm a good swimmer Chad, I like the deep end as it gives me more room to maneuver (kind of like blu-ray) :) And yes, I'm well aware of J. Allard's history of backpedaling.

To answer your question, I certainly don't drink the green koolaid.

[chad_cincy]

Backpedaling? Lets just take a look at the original article that your quotes originate from (although I suspect, you may have gotten them from more nefarious sources that quoted them completely out of context):

http://www.thestreet.com/pf/tech/software/10225293.html

So your original quote was actually a false assumption by the author, Troy Wolverton, never uttered by J. Troy presents this premise to J. and J. responds:
Q: At the press event last week, you predicted that a billion people would play the Xbox 360. How did you come up with that figure?

The thing about that comment is it's really intended to be an inspirational comment for the industry. Right now, more people enjoy movies, music, television and movies than they do video games.Later in the same answer is your second quote where he is describing the current state of the industry as a whole and why the financials look as rosey as they do, but goes on to explain that he believes it's important to truly grow the industry not just force their enthusiastic base to upgrade hardware and software each generation. And again, this is a comment on the industry as a whole. Both for the way it currently works and his vision of the future.
The thing about that comment is it's really intended to be an inspirational comment for the industry. Right now, more people enjoy movies, music, television and movies than they do video games.

Our revenue growth is great, right? If you look at all the numbers, you say, "We're doing great as an industry." Well, we force everybody to go buy new hardware every five years. That helps. Our average selling point of content is $50 or $42 or whatever you want to call it. That helps, right? And the fact that we have such an enthusiast [base] that consumes so much, it drives up those numbers.

That's great, but how do we invite people back in and turn the world into gamers? To think that there are a billion people in the world that can read or watch movies or play music, nobody would scoff at that. But if you say, 'We're going to get a billion people to go play games,' that's a big dream.

And so, it's more a challenge to the industry to say, 'Hey, we're all going to appeal to the core [gamers] , but let's all do our part to take it to the next level.
So when in context, it all comes back to the his original quote and interviews just fine.

[rdjam]

BetaNews, maybe biased, but...since it appears the hi-def dvd wars will be won or lost by game consoles...

Has Xbox 360 Already Won the War? (http://www.betanews.com/article/Has_Xbox_360_Already_Won_the_War/1165514003)
Very interesting - some people keep coming back here and saying that MS' numbers are "only shipped" - but this article CLEARLY states that at the end of November they've sold 8 Million and shipped 10 Million...

Not bad...

[rdjam]

Whoever wins gets to author the other's AVS sig for a month.
A fate worse than death!! :p

[rdjam]

Another article on the demise of the Playstation franchise. I believe this whole event qualifies as a greek tragedy.....hubris, causing your own demise.....

http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=5226
WHOAHA!!

This bit caught MY eye...

Sony also has to deal with several issues surrounding its new machine. For one, those who have HDTV compatible television sets but do not support 720p will be unable to play many new PS3 games in high-definition. This is because the PS3 lacks an internal upscaler, and will automatically downscale high-definition images to 480p, resulting in a dramatic loss of visual quality. Sony said that a fix was in the works, but later backtracked saying that the company has yet to announce any action towards the issue.

[briankmonkey]

I did not stutter, backpeddaling is correct Chad. I'll show you another example of his backpedalling since you have the question.

Microsoft's Moore: "Nobody is Concerned About Backward Compatibility" (http://www.gamepro.com/news.cfm?article_id=61308)

Microsoft's Peter Moore downplays the importance of backward compatibility on the Xbox 360, saying "we under promised and over delivered on that."

The Verdict by JohnnyK
To say that Microsoft delivered more than it promised is a smack in the face of every single Xbox 360 gamer who was looking forward to backwards compatibility.

If you visit Microsoft's website, they state that one of their goals is to have every single original Xbox game playable on the 360. Apparently, there are a lot less Xbox games than I was aware of. Peter Moore might want to get a new tattoo next to that GTA IV one that reads "Liar."


Xbox 360 frontman Peter Moore has apologized for his recent comments concerning the system's limited backward compatibility features, chalking the experience up to a "misinterpretation." (http://www.gamepro.com/news.cfm?article_id=65448)


Of course those who blindly worship MS will not call it backpeddalling but at the time thousands upon thousands of xbox360 owners sure did.

[chad_cincy]

Well, Moore isn't Allard for one and I'll take your changing the person and the quote as an admission your done defending the original quote. Which is fine by me, as I really have no more interest in it. :)

[briankmonkey]

Well, Moore isn't Allard for one and I'll take your changing the person and the quote as an admission your done defending the original quote. Which is fine by me, as I really have no more interest in it. :)

Good catch Chad.

Oh know, I mixed up 2 Microsoft executives. Sorry, I'm not perfect and faultered on keeping up with which MS exect did damage control at a certain time. :p

[SamwisetheBrave]

"The Magic has Arrived !!"

At least according to Disney... Check out the latest "previews" on Pirates 2 for a "BluRay" spot. Doesn't look like good ole Disney has any "HD-DVD" plans anytime soon.. ;)

b2b
Then they ain't gettin' any of my money soon! :mad:

[mikemorel]

Looks like Jennifer over at Video Business is taking up the cause...

HD DVD petition backers take on PS3 (http://www.videobusiness.com/blog/1730000173/post/270005827.html)

Now called HD DVD Now, the group of rabid HD DVD supporters petitioning Blu-ray-only studios to put out movies on HD DVD have set up a web site where they are continuing to collect petition signatures. So far, they've collected 2,300 signatures, according to Edward Downer, who started the petition drive.

Backers also put up a critique of the PS3 launch, calling it a "dramatic failure," which, I don't know, may be overstating things just a bit.

[briankmonkey]

Looks like Jennifer over at Video Business is taking up the cause...

HD DVD petition backers take on PS3 (http://www.videobusiness.com/blog/1730000173/post/270005827.html)

Interesting "rabid HD-DVD supporters" begging for piece of the blu-ray pie, lol

[mikemorel]

Interesting "rabid HD-DVD supporters" begging for piece of the blu-ray pie, lolIt's a small pie - the PS3 sold 197k units in the month of November. (http://biz.gamedaily.com/industry/feature/?id=14685) Apparently that's all the diodes they could muster. I don't expect December will be much better, do you?

[g55555sim]

good news for those who claimed that we wont be seing more HD DVD players till next year. The HD DVD thread is buzzing up. At least one consumer claimed to have already owning the A2 player (from BB). Value Electronics president :p Robert has ALSO confirmed that he has shipped pre orders for the same player TODAY.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=764683

Yes, got A2 From BB today!

I know there are many questions, and I only had chance to do quick test but so far it's much better than A1 for performance. I checked out the first problem title for most folks with E.O.Days and played TrueHD track flawless not lag, pause or hiccups at all. Then checked out some of KK just to be sure it works and just fine with it.

[briankmonkey]

It's a small pie - the PS3 sold 197k units in the month of November. (http://biz.gamedaily.com/industry/feature/?id=14685) Apparently that's all the diodes they could muster. I don't expect December will be much better, do you?

I don't think blu-ray's much larger studio support will change in November.

[g55555sim]

robert's confirmation :

earpiece actually we are shipping today. This HD player is fantastic. Fast loading, great responsive remote control, beautiful chassis, unbelievable picture and audio quality as great as my XA1 playing the same movie on the same Pioneer Elite PROFHD1 50" 1080p plasma display. (I'm using a Gefen 2x1 HDMI splitter so I can quickly switch sources, XA1/A2).

Yes, you heard it right, thanks to Toshiba we are shipping today!!!

TimV your order will ship on 12/14 as you said and we ship by Fed Ex home ground delivery so your order will be delivered on 12/21 or 12/22 at the latest.

-Robert

[Michael Mullis]

I don't think blu-ray's much larger studio support will change in November.

No, but I'm betting since they aren't going to sell 800,000 units in December you will see some changes come January, February.

[Issac Hunt]

HD DVD fans have been placing that bet for many months now...

[Q of BanditZ]

"The Magic has Arrived !!"

At least according to Disney... Check out the latest "previews" on Pirates 2 for a "BluRay" spot. Doesn't look like good ole Disney has any "HD-DVD" plans anytime soon..

b2b

Excellent! I'll be buying those the first day they're out! :)

[g55555sim]

Reuters picked up the internet negative buzz on BD and came out with another BD headline: and we all know what happens when Reuters picked up stories: there will be more than 3 (30page) pages news result when we do a google BD or HD DVD :P

Blu-ray DVD drive no bonus for some PS3 buyers

the advanced Blu-ray DVD drive is annoying some by raising the cost, slowing production and forcing them to buy into a format they've not yet aligned with.

"Blu-ray is adding $150 to $200 to the product. They've created something that is not for today's market. It's not a market driver, it's only driving the price higher"

http://today.reuters.com/news/articleinvesting.aspx?view=CN&symbol=&storyID=2006-12-07T234811Z_01_N07345685_RTRIDST_0_SONY-PS3-BLURAY-UPDATE-1.XML&pageNumber=0&WTModLoc=InvArt-C1-ArticlePage2&sz=

[briankmonkey]

No, but I'm betting since they aren't going to sell 800,000 units in December you will see some changes come January, February.

But this supposed to happen 2 months ago when blu-ray was killed off :p

[Michael Mullis]

HD DVD fans have been placing that bet for many months now...

And now you see why. ;)


Blu-ray DVD drive no bonus for some PS3 buyers

Sue Zeidler attacked in 5......4........3........2.........1........

[g55555sim]

and this one is creatively funny.

SHIFT: A eulogy for physical media (BD and HD DVD included)

Dearly beloved,

We are gathered here today to mourn the loss of our friends the CD, the DVD, the HD DVD, the Blu-ray Disc, and every other physical media format. For many years they stood by us and provided us with handy ways for us to consume our favorite media, but their time has come and gone. In order for us to get some closure I've gathered us here to talk about our fondest memories and to recount those last harrowing years as our friends desperately clung to life. They were fighters, weren't they? Right to the very end. But here we are, coming up to the end of 2010, and look at how things have changed. President Obama has cured both AIDS and cancer personally, there's a colony on the moon, and all music, video, and photography is enjoyed exclusively in digital form.

:) :P

http://blog.scifi.com/tech/pics/formateulogy.jpg

http://blog.scifi.com/tech/archives/2006/12/07/shift_a_eulogy.html

[Kolgar]

Oh, Andy Parsons. You silly willy.

Differences between PS2 and PS3 are:

1) PS2 was actually affordably priced
2) PS2 was riding the wave of a disc format that was already well on its way to acceptance

This ain't that. PS3 will not be a savior for anybody. In fact, it'll have a tough enough fight for its own position in the gaming space.

[hdkhang]

One only needs to go to the HD-DVD software forum and it's tier thread specifically to see many poor VC1 encodes.

Quickly looking over that thread, the tier system is faulty as it is about what looks like eye candy, not what looks faithful to the original, there is a difference. Disagreeances on titles like The Perfect Storm for example where the original is intentionally soft leading to many placing it in a low tier despite it's visual transparency to the source.

Cheers...
Duy-Khang Hoang

[los seres]

Some Panasonic BD Numbers (http://www.videobusiness.com/article/CA6398266.html)

Panasonic officials did not discuss shipment figures for its Blu-ray player, which launched in September. But sources believe the company will have shipped between 30,000 and 40,000 units worldwide by March.

For now, the company seems content keeping its $1,299-priced Blu-ray player displayed at such specialty outlets as Magnolia, Tweeter and Ultimate Electronics.

“The set-top box is an expensive proposition,” said Tsuyuzaki. “It’s different from the [$499 to $599] PlayStation 3 product.

[mikemorel]

I don't think blu-ray's much larger studio support will change in November.The studios?? That's the least of Sony's problems!

1. They bet the farm that they could produce BD in volume. They can't, at least not in the next 6 months. They knew for over a year that blue laser diodes were difficult to make. Amir knew it. Hell, a guy that got banned from this board knew it in early Spring. So Sony had to have been stockpiling them for the last 6 months. And that's all they could come up with was 197,000 at launch?? Not 2 million (4 million by end of 2006, remember?).

2. Remember that report from July (http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/biz/archives/2006/07/20/2003319649) that said Asustek started to build PS3s in July? It was later denied. IMO it was a real report - it took from July to November to produce 197,000 consoles.

3. So they have this tremenous supply problem, which in turn affects their whole supply chain. They can't get too far ahead with all the other parts and pieces, because they build up too much inventory which costs lots of money. Therefore they can't start to realize economies of scale and efficiencies in manufacturing those parts. So they can't lower costs very fast.. and therefore lower prices.

4. Meanwhile MS will kick out more than a million consoles in December (no easy feat at $400). At the same time MS is lowering costs (http://biz.gamedaily.com/industry/feature/?id=13351), and switching to a 65 nanometer CPU (http://www.soccentral.com/results.asp?CategoryID=552&entryID=18781) . The minute Sony finally starts to get over the diode problems (March?, June?), MS lowers prices. So here we have $200 and $300 XBoxes (and perhaps a $400 HD-DVD model) competing with $500 and $600 PS3s, except the XBoxes have lots more games, and Halo. Sony can't lower prices because they only have say, two million consoles out there and are hemorrhaging cash. And they need astronomical attach rates to ever break even at the prices they are charging now. Problem is they can't prove the PS3 is better than the XBox. More developers defect to the XBox side of the fence. PS3 gets the ports.

---------------
Granted that MS/Toshiba must have some diode problems as well, even though a recent EETimes article (http://www.eetimes.com/issue/fp/showArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=S2251CFRCSAQMQSNDLOSKH0CJUNN2JV N?articleID=194400941&_requestid=749376&_requestid=1353154) quoted Shinichi Ito, senior manger of the digital A/V division of Toshiba, who said the company has had no laser diode supply problems.

But to cripple the Playstation line, the crown jewel of Sony, in both price and supply, vs. XBox (and Nintendo) seems crazy to me. Maybe Sony can prove me wrong...

[nataraj]

Phew - OK , time for some NEWS :)

Check this one out - "Optical HD Battle May Be Over: HD DVD Wins"

http://news.digitaltrends.com/talkback158.html

They even mention the HD NOW petition campaign :D

Two interesting points.

Finally, HP who had been a big Blu-Ray supporter and dominates the Media Center PC market, introduced a $100 HD DVD upgrade for their PCs (Sony’s Blu-Ray VIAO solution was just dropped to $749). The impact of this last move is still too early to measure but there is no comparably priced (not even close) solution using Blu-Ray.

This shows the kind of prices HD DVD drives sell at in quantities. This is the reason 360 HD DVD addon doesn't lose any money.

This shows the kind of pressure the 360 add-on and the inexpensive drive can put on BD. The effect of PC drives can't be overlooked. See this statistic about DVD ...

1997
- Over 500,000 DVD-Video players shipped worldwide.
- Around 330,000 DVD-ROM drives shipped worldwide with about 1 million bundled DVD-ROM titles.

The above is from http://www.dvd-software.info/dvd-faq/19.php .

Note that both projections are aggressive but Sony was supposed to originally ship 2M PS3s into the market during the 4th quarter and actual numbers (given they had under 200K at launch) may be closer to 400K. And with a recall possible there is a chance they might not even make that.

Hmmm ... I've not been keeping up with the news on PS3. Why would there be a recall ? Afterall they are not using Sony Batteries, are they ? ;)

[nataraj]

good news for those who claimed that we wont be seing more HD DVD players till next year. The HD DVD thread is buzzing up. At least one consumer claimed to have already owning the A2 player (from BB). Value Electronics president :p Robert has ALSO confirmed that he has shipped pre orders for the same player TODAY.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=764683

Yes, we are getting A2 (or XA2, I forget), in the MS company store next week.

[mikey p]

Is the cat about to come out of the bag? The truth is out there.......

[smithfarmer]

back and forth back and forth...
Why not just say they'll have 40 million or billion then switch it back down to 8 million :p
Because they're not like Sony.

[nataraj]

Is the cat about to come out of the bag? The truth is out there.......

Which cat ... what bag ?

[2Channel]

Is the cat about to come out of the bag? The truth is out there.......

Don't tease us mikey, give us a little more.

[BenDover]

...

I'm sorry, but who are you again? I have no idea what TheLion does for a living, but his posts show quite clearly that he knows what he's talking about. At least Amir shows him much more respect than you do, agrees with him on quite a few technical points and is very careful in critizising others (see above). Remember, attack the post, not the poster. So if you have a good explanation for the artifacts lots of users are describing in the other thread I would very much like to hear it.

FWIW this is only a format issue insofar as BD potentially has more space and higher bandwith. If the same transfer is used (by a neutral studio), obviously the artifacts will be the same.


easy there big fella, I didn't say i was anyone; I didn't say that what I said should be quoted as conclusive/dispositive on any issue...

YOU however have proclaimed that THE LION has spoken and based on what HE said we all now KNOW something...

THAT is what I pointed out so i indeed attacked the post and not the poster.

so if you want to hold him out as your EXPERT you'll have to provide me with his identity and credentials...

now isn't that simple ;)

[2Channel]

......Granted that MS/Toshiba must have some diode problems as well, even though a recent EETimes article (http://www.eetimes.com/issue/fp/showArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=S2251CFRCSAQMQSNDLOSKH0CJUNN2JV N?articleID=194400941&_requestid=749376&_requestid=1353154) quoted Shinichi Ito, senior manger of the digital A/V division of Toshiba, who said the company has had no laser diode supply problems.

But to cripple the Playstation line, the crown jewel of Sony, in both price and supply, vs. XBox (and Nintendo) seems crazy to me. Maybe Sony can prove me wrong...

It's one thing to get your hands on 300,000 blue lasers in 2006 (Toshiba's projection for HD-DVD devices that will be sold this year). It's an entirely different issue to get your hands on 2 Million blue lasers in 2006 (Sony's goal for PS3 this year).

The whole PS3 strategy was predicated on the assumption that they would be able to make millions of blue lasers for PS3 this year. They're almost at 400,000 globally (US and Japan) which is impressive from a blue laser quantity perspective but dismal from a trojan horse strategy perspective.

Sony's blue laser supply will have to increase dramatically for the March 07 EU launch to happen. I expect Sony to push the date back. If you were fighting off Microsoft in the US and Nintendo in Japan, would you further stretch your supplies to open up the EU market?

[smithfarmer]

Originally Posted by Grubert
Disclosure:

Rob Enderle is President of the Promar Group, one of whose major clients is Toshiba.

http://www.promar.com/RobEnderle.html
http://www.promar.com/clients.htm

Thanks for digging that up. Amazing how all of these "pundits" always end up having a client list.... ;) b2b

Nice to see your favorite company was one of his clients. ;)
For over 20 years Rob has worked for and with companies like Microsoft, HP, IBM, Dell, Toshiba, Gateway, Sony, USAA, Texas Instruments, AMD, Intel, Credit Suisse First Boston, GM, Ford, ROLM, and Siemens.


It must be pretty tough for you to see the #1 ranked "pundit" proclaiming Sony killed Blu Ray.
Rob has been ranked #1 since 1995 in press coverage world wide and been captured by the Wall Street Journal, Boston Globe, CNN, CNBC, the AP, Reuters, Bloomberg, New York Times, LA Times, Mercury News, MSNBC, NPR, and other services and papers world wide. He writes a regular column for Internet Week and co-hosted CNET radio. He has appeared on special segments for United Airlines, Silicon Valley this Week, Computer Currents, and Tech TV.

Granted, I have no proof of the veracity of this claimed #1 ranking but this is the uphill battle being faced by Blu Ray. "Pundits" views like this are prevailing and being carried by the mass media everywhere you look. It's all about the "favorable mindshare" and so far Blu Ray is not capturing it the way you've hoped for. ;)

[mikemorel]

Maybe Mikey's talking about tomorrow morning's CED, which has a LOT to say about dual format players, including the CEO of a certain insider's firm who does not think they are a good idea (I guess if I were him I would say the same thing).

Anyways, 3 CE firms and 4 chip suppliers are chasing dual format. I'd say more but it's time for bed. zzzz

On the way out, he're some more comments by Dick Parsons, Time Warner CEO.

Separately, Time Warner CEO Richard Parsons downplayed PS3's role in hastening Blu-ray adoption. “I don’t think” PS3 will “drive the conversion” because “people get those things to play games -- they don’t really get them to
watch movies,” he told the Credit Suisse Media & Telecom Week Conference in N.Y. Tues. What will spur Blu-ray and HD DVD adoption is the flat-panel HDTV, he said. As such sets get more “consumer acceptance... there’s going to be more and more demand” for HD content, he told the conference. There is “nothing to say” the Blu-ray/HD DVD format war ever will be resolved, he added, noting that multiple videogame platforms survive side-by-side. What could help is that “hybrid” devices being made by some CE companies, he said; they can play Blu-ray and HD DVD discs.

The format war is “unfortunate almost by definition because it creates confusion in the minds of consumers,” Parsons said: “It doesn’t allow a big group to line up behind either one of those formats to begin to drive the costs down, so these platforms are going to be out of the reach of the mass market.” He singled out PS3's high price tag. But Time Warner is “positioned to take advantage of what uptick there is [on] the new devices,” thanks to supporting both formats, he said. Xbox 360 supports HD DVD but only with a separate HD DVD player.

[b2bonez]

Two interesting points.
This shows the kind of prices HD DVD drives sell at in quantities. This is the reason 360 HD DVD addon doesn't lose any money.


The $99 HD-DVD drive was a one day special.. The price is now $249.00...

HD DVD-ROM for high definition movies
In order to deliver maximum high-def entertainment, this option requires the 256MB NVIDIA GeForce 7600GT graphics card option.

+$249.99
The addon also has something like 192MB of memory to support all of the memory functions required for playing movies. There in more in the box than just a drive.

b2b

[b2bonez]

Nice to see your favorite company was one of his clients. ;)
For over 20 years Rob has worked for and with companies like Microsoft, HP, IBM, Dell, Toshiba, Gateway, Sony, USAA, Texas Instruments, AMD, Intel, Credit Suisse First Boston, GM, Ford, ROLM, and Siemens.

I wonder when in that 20 year period he worked for or had Sony as a client ?? Almost none of those names show up under the "current" client list (except Toshiba).

http://www.promar.com/clients.htm

b2b

[BlackRiderX]

But Time Warner is “positioned to take advantage of what uptick there is [on] the new devices,” thanks to supporting both formats, he said. [/I]

I have to believe that statement is finally proof that the format neutrality stance of all Time Warner studios (WB, NL, HBO) is a company wide, either "agreed-on" or "ordered" policy.

[smithfarmer]

I would venture to guess that > 90% of the 500,000 people who buy a PS3 with the included BD movie disc will choose to pop it into the drive and watch the movie. What their BD movie buying/renting habits from that point on is a something that is beyond my estimation (there are no precedents for this kind of product feature).
Would you care to venture a guess on the # of people who'll see no difference between BD discs and their regular SD DVD's because their PS3's aren't even connected to HDTV's?

[rdjam]

Looks like Jennifer over at Video Business is taking up the cause...

HD DVD petition backers take on PS3 (http://www.videobusiness.com/blog/1730000173/post/270005827.html)
Heh - We are up over 3,000 unique signatories tonight.

But we are experiencing a little DENIAL OF SERVICE ATTACK, at the moment.

Gee, I wonder who would want to do that? Someone must be feeling threatened :p

[b2bonez]

Heh - We are up over 3,000 unique signatories tonight.

But we are experiencing a little DENIAL OF SERVICE ATTACK, at the moment.

Gee, I wonder who would want to do that? Someone must be feeling threatened :p

Oops.. better get your tin-foil hat ready... :)

b2b

[rdjam]

Is the cat about to come out of the bag? The truth is out there.......
Hey MIKEY - Long time no see! ;)

[rdjam]

Maybe Mikey's talking about tomorrow morning's CED, which has a LOT to say about dual format players, including the CEO of a certain insider's firm who does not think they are a good idea (I guess if I were him I would say the same thing).
Let me guess - the one that DIDN'T develop a dual-format chipset?? :)

2 syllables, 5 letters, begins with... That one?

[Eternal_Sunshine]

easy there big fella, I didn't say i was anyone; I didn't say that what I said should be quoted as conclusive/dispositive on any issue...

YOU however have proclaimed that THE LION has spoken and based on what HE said we all now KNOW something...

THAT is what I pointed out so i indeed attacked the post and not the poster.

so if you want to hold him out as your EXPERT you'll have to provide me with his identity and credentials...

now isn't that simple ;)

Strangely you don't demand to know "identity and credentials" of folks that post stuff you like to hear...

All I said is that what he posted made sense to me. You – and all the other very vocal HD DVD fans – still didn't react to that very simple and logical theory that it may actually take a lot of effort and hand-tuning by the compressionists to make movies look great at typical HD DVD bitrates and that this may be the reason that less prestigious titles that don't get the "royal treatment" show those artifacts Alan Gouger and a lot of others have pointed out in the other thread. And those folks are not BD supporters eager to find some fault with HD DVD, those are folks who bought into HD DVD and realize that the PQ is becoming very hit and miss.

So who cares who TheLion is? Please tell me why his theory doesn't make sense to you and your alternative explanation of those visible artifacts.

[aaaaa0]

The addon also has something like 192MB of memory to support all of the memory functions required for playing movies. There in more in the box than just a drive.


192 MB of Flash.

How much, exactly, does a 256 MB flash card cost nowadays?

[b2bonez]

192 MB of Flash.

How much, exactly, does a 256 MB flash card cost nowadays?

Don't have a clue. I haven't fooled with PC stuff for years..

b2b

[namechamps]

192 MB of Flash.

How much, exactly, does a 256 MB flash card cost nowadays?

Flash Memory is bulk is around $12/GB. So I would say about $3-$5.

[Grubert]

CD Freaks presents the LG GBW-H10N 4x Blu-ray drive review (http://www.cdfreaks.com/news/CD-Freaks-presents-the-LG-GBW-H10N-4x-Blu-ray-drive-review.html)

[scaesare]

Nope.. don't think so.. Besides your sig is perfect as is. I wouldn't change a thing... ;)

b2b

OK, if you win I'll let you change RDJam's sig. ;)

[scaesare]

It's a small pie - the PS3 sold 197k units in the month of November. (http://biz.gamedaily.com/industry/feature/?id=14685) Apparently that's all the diodes they could muster. I don't expect December will be much better, do you?

Wow.

And didn't the PS3 come out on 11/17? And the number that was actually avaialable in the initial batch was 400k, right? So perhaps 200K US and 200K internationally?

Assuming even distribution would be obvioulsy wrong, but I wonder how many of those were avaialble day 1? A quarter of that? A third?

Assuming a 3rd both here and internationally, that would be ~120K to 130K in lauch day?

Are those plausible #'s for the first day sales?

[b2bonez]

Wow.

And didn't the PS3 come out on 11/17? And the number that was actually avaialable in the initial batch was 400k, right? So perhaps 200K US and 200K internationally?

Assuming even distribution would be obvioulsy wrong, but I wonder how many of those were avaialble day 1? A quarter of that? A third?

Assuming a 3rd both here and internationally, that would be ~120K to 130K in lauch day?

Are those plausible #'s for the first day sales?

A bit of perspective from the same article...
Looking at how the new Sony and Nintendo consoles fared, the Wii sold through 476K units in the U.S. while the PS3 sold 197K units. Meanwhile, Microsoft's Xbox 360 (which is in far greater supply) sold 511K units and is now at 3.8 million total in the U.S. Interestingly, the PS2 managed to outsell the Xbox 360 yet again. In fact, so did the old Game Boy. The PS2 and Game Boy sold a respective 664K and 641K units.

Add the two Sony models up (PS2 + PS3) and you get 861k vs. 511k for Xbox...

b2b

[Michael Mullis]

Add the two Sony models up (PS2 + PS3) and you get 861k vs. 511k for Xbox...

You have got to be kidding me. You are not even going to try and add a $99-$129 console (depends where you get it) to the sales total and use that as "perspective" are you, really????

[efralope]

Wow.

And didn't the PS3 come out on 11/17? And the number that was actually avaialable in the initial batch was 400k, right? So perhaps 200K US and 200K internationally?

Assuming even distribution would be obvioulsy wrong, but I wonder how many of those were avaialble day 1? A quarter of that? A third?

Assuming a 3rd both here and internationally, that would be ~120K to 130K in lauch day?

Are those plausible #'s for the first day sales?
Sony's "goal" was 100,000 launch for Japan and 400,000 for North America. They hit about 80% of that target in Japan. In the US, they shipped about 200,000 the first few days of release (not counting Canada), so I'd say somewhere in the 125,000-175,000 range was pretty accurate.

It's so weird how Sony handled this.


Spring launch -> World Wide Fall launch (4 million before Jan. 1st) -> NA/Japan launch with 500,000 units day 1 -> missing their targets almost by 1/2 (less than 250,000 on day one for both territories)

More mystifying is the assurances up until the last second for each delay. Europe was supposed to get the first PS3s. And several weeks ago the 400,000 number was still thrown around. Wasn't there at least some sense that maybe things weren't going as planned?

Totally bizarre that it would be that bad. XBox 360 was a joke, but they had a global launch (similar too Wii).

Now, I'm not sure what to make of the 6 million figure before the end of March. On the one hand, Blu-ray studios are counting on it, and you figure Sony isn't going to risk p*ssing them off?

[b2bonez]

You have got to be kidding me. You are not even going to try and add a $99-$129 console (depends where you get it) to the sales total and use that as "perspective" are you, really????

So what's the title of the article ???
Breaking: November Game Industry Sales Skyrocket 34%

If you look at the total sales for all companies (all products) MS is just a distant third with a single product.

b2b

[Kolgar]

You have got to be kidding me. You are not even going to try and add a $99-$129 console (depends where you get it) to the sales total and use that as "perspective" are you, really????

This is precisely why I use the Ignore function. Such garbage severely erodes the integrity of any discussion.

Maybe I'd be better off checking out until the format war has been decided. Wake me when it's over. ;)

[Grubert]

It seems I had missed another BD writer review on CD Freaks:

Lite-On LH-2B1S Blu-Ray Disc Triple Writer Review (http://www.cdfreaks.com/reviews/Lite-On-LH-2B1S-Blu-Ray-Disc-Triple-Writer-Review/Introduction.html)

[Kosty]

*sigh*

Another day, other logical fallacy.

I wonder when in that 20 year period he worked for or had Sony as a client ?? Almost none of those names show up under the "current" client list (except Toshiba).

http://www.promar.com/clients.htm

b2b What exactly about his argument do you disagree with? I'll take into consideration that he's worked as a consultant for Toshiba and other CE companies. The fact that he's respected enough to get premium companies including Sony, to pay his disqualifies his argument?

*sigh*

Another day, other logical fallacy.

An ad hominem fallacy consists of asserting that someone's argument is wrong and/or he is wrong to argue at all purely because of something discreditable/not-authoritative about the person or those persons cited by him rather than addressing the soundness of the argument itself. The implication is that the person's argument and/or ability to argue correctly lacks authority.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

Maybe if you look at his experience, you might decide that he had a clue?

Somehow I believe you were singing his praises last year, when he wrote pro Blu-ray?
http://www.promar.com/RobEnderle.html

[Grubert]

*sigh*

Another day, other logical fallacy.

What exactly about his argument do you disagree with? I'll take into consideration that he's worked as a consultant for Toshiba and other CE companies. The fact that he's respected enough to get premium companies including Sony, to pay his disqualifies his argument?



He had worked for Sony. He is working for Toshiba.



*sigh*

Another day, other logical fallacy.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem


Questioning the credibility of an opinion piece because its author has a vested interest is not ad hominem.

[Kosty]

Is it just me or has their been virtually no positive Blu-ray or PS3 news out for the month of November of December by anyone except official Sony or Blu-ray association spokespeople.

There appears to be a mainstream news bandwagon effect going on here with the conventional wisdom criticizing Blu-ray. Not sure if its fair or not, but the vast majority of articles written recently seem to be critical of Blu-ray.

Blu-ray strength is its appearance of inevitability (studio support, CE support), if that firewall breaks open, what happens?

[briankmonkey]

Is it just me or has their been virtually no positive Blu-ray or PS3 news out for the month of November of December by anyone except official Sony or Blu-ray association spokespeople.

There appears to be a mainstream news bandwagon effect going on here with the conventional wisdom criticizing Blu-ray. Not sure if its fair or not, but the vast majority of articles written recently seem to be critical of Blu-ray.

Blu-ray strength is its appearance of inevitability (studio support, CE support), if that firewall breaks open, what happens?

Sounds like you have selective reading my friend or are just forgetfull(I say this based on your posting history as I've seen you post in topics with positive Blu-ray or PS3 news). I'm not saying it is just you as there are plenty of other people who turn a blind eye to positive news, but it certainly isn't everybody ;)

[sknight1]

A nice summary of units sold and financials for all three game consoles - Bloomberg Report (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aRbhBQjT1Bxs&refer=home)

[b2bonez]

*sigh*

Maybe if you look at his experience, you might decide that he had a clue?

Somehow I believe you were singing his praises last year, when he wrote pro Blu-ray?
http://www.promar.com/RobEnderle.html

How about we look at his current affiliation with Toshiba ??
Member, Industry Advisory Council
Toshiba US
Irvine, CA

b2b

[briankmonkey]

He had worked for Sony. He is working for Toshiba.





Questioning the credibility of an opinion piece because its author has a vested interest is not ad hominem.

:p

[b2bonez]

Is it just me or has their been virtually no positive Blu-ray or PS3 news out for the month of November of December by anyone except official Sony or Blu-ray association spokespeople.

There appears to be a mainstream news bandwagon effect going on here with the conventional wisdom criticizing Blu-ray. Not sure if its fair or not, but the vast majority of articles written recently seem to be critical of Blu-ray.

Blu-ray strength is its appearance of inevitability (studio support, CE support), if that firewall breaks open, what happens?

Hmm.. so HD-DVD is winning the propaganda "war".. ??

b2b

[briankmonkey]

How about we look at his current affiliation with Toshiba ??


b2b

What if there was a certain Microsoft exec that used to work for Sony, should we take him/her as the end all be all source on Sony?

[dialog_gvf]

Is it just me or has their been virtually no positive Blu-ray or PS3 news out for the month of November of December by anyone except official Sony or Blu-ray association spokespeople.

How about the PS/3 being a darn good BD player? How about the release of the Sony player? How about all the positive movie reviews?

Todays thedvdwars.com numbers:

HD DVD: 961.3
Blu-ray: 2118.7 (all time high is ~1920)

I believe that's the closest the two formats have been since late September (including Nov. 17).

If someone doesn't care about or like BD, it's not surprising they won't see the positives.

When exactly did all this stop being about HD movie discs and players?

Gary

[wco81]

Kotsy will never notice positive BR or PS3 news.

[briankmonkey]

How about the PS/3 being a darn good BD player? How about the release of the Sony player? How about all the positive movie reviews?

Todays thedvdwars.com numbers:

HD DVD: 961.3
Blu-ray: 2118.7 (all time high is ~1920)

I believe that's the closest the two formats have been since late September (including Nov. 17).

If someone doesn't care about or like BD, it's not surprising they won't see the positives.

When exactly did all this stop being about HD movie discs and players?

Gary

Wouldn't it save certain members a lot of time if they just put:

"blurray is teh debil, HD-DVD is angelic.. Why? because I said so it must be true"

in their signatures instead typing the same BS over and over again in every topic they enter?

[Michael Mullis]

Hmm.. so HD-DVD is winning the propaganda "war".. ??

It seems to be. You don't even own a Blu-ray player.

[BenDover]

PS3 remote gets reviewed...

http://www.engadget.com/2006/12/08/sonys-bd-remote-control-for-ps3-reviewed/

[rover2002]

Don't the Harmony remotes work with the PS3?

[2Channel]

This is precisely why I use the Ignore function. Such garbage severely erodes the integrity of any discussion.

Maybe I'd be better off checking out until the format war has been decided. Wake me when it's over. ;)

I believe it was the original post that Mike responded to that was meaningless to the HD format debate. Sales of a 6 year old console have little relevance, unless you're trying to make the point that these are potential PS3 upgrades 3 years from now. But by that time all of this will be long over.......or will it? ;)

[b2bonez]

It seems to be. You don't even own a Blu-ray player.

If the propaganda worked as well as you thought, then there would be more companies building HD-DVD players... but the reality is only one company is (Toshiba) ;)

Time for a recap...

Toshiba takes 6 months to build and ship 70,000 slow, buggy prototype players and they are given credit for being visionary genuses in the CE world.

Sony builds and delivers (in two weeks) 197,000 cutting edge technology PS3s that not only play games but are very excellent BD movie players and they are bashed at every opportunity for failing so badly that their only option is to give up, pack their bags and go home (according to Robbie) :rolleyes:

Oh yes... the propaganda for HD-DVD is rolling "full steam ahead". Too bad their product production isn't as effective as their jaw flapping... ;)

b2b

[briankmonkey]

PS3 remote gets reviewed...

http://www.engadget.com/2006/12/08/sonys-bd-remote-control-for-ps3-reviewed/

Thanks. Honestly I'm very happy with using the wireless controller. It does an excellent job, not clunky at all like using the PS2 controller with DVD's, the exact opposite really. Of course the SIXAXIS is shaped like a controller and that is a turn-off for some ;)

[crussader]

Don't the Harmony remotes work with the PS3?

No. The PS3 requires blue tooth for its remote operations.

[BenDover]

Thanks. Honestly I'm very happy with using the wireless controller. It does an excellent job, not clunky at all like using the PS2 controller with DVD's, the exact opposite really. Of course the SIXAXIS is shaped like a controller and that is a turn-off for some ;)

yeah, my wife would never go for using a game controller :D one instance where no matter what i say or do, i would outright lose :)

[wco81]

Maybe Logitech can make a USB dongle IR sensor to work with their remotes.

I've held off on pulling the trigger for the Harmony 880 though. Screen looks nice but the layout seems inferior to the layout on the Tivo and the HR20 remotes.

[BenDover]

Maybe Logitech can make a USB dongle IR sensor to work with their remotes.

I've held off on pulling the trigger for the Harmony 880 though. Screen looks nice but the layout seems inferior to the layout on the Tivo and the HR20 remotes.

OT: i've got the 880 and absolutely love it...love all the harmony remotes i own (three different models...but the 880 is my fave atm). i was planning on trying the upcoming (don't think it is in stores yet) 1000 model (touchscreen; different form factor) but am starting to reconsider.

anyhow, a dongle (isn't that a pejorative term around here?;)) would be a nice way to convert an IR remote into an RF-based remote!

[UxiSXRD]

RF is the big feature of the 890 IIRC (for a $100 premium). It wouldn't surprise me if they came out with a 895 or something that had bluetooth...

The remote for the BDP-S1 is sure snazzy. I like the blue wheel thing. Too bad neither of these are backlit, though.

[dialog_gvf]

yeah, my wife would never go for using a game controller :D one instance where no matter what i say or do, i would outright lose :)

Once you get used to it, it works fairly well. I'll get the remote, but I really don't need it.

Gary

[scaesare]

A bit of perspective from the same article...


Add the two Sony models up (PS2 + PS3) and you get 861k vs. 511k for Xbox...

b2b

Uh, ok?

Interesting answer to my question: Are these #'s plausible?

[BenDover]

Once you get used to it, it works fairly well. I'll get the remote, but I really don't need it.

Gary

nothing to do with me, i'm fine with using anything with buttons :D

it is my wife that wouldn't go for it, no matter what...she's weird like that ;)

[Michael Mullis]

b2b, I am sorry my friend. Until you have decided to stop talking from the sidelines and actually jump into this format war with a player, it's just really hard for me to give any weight to what you're saying.

And BTW, in case you haven't read, the A2's are out now so those numbers will begin to rise once again for the HD DVD side. And of course you have the 360 add-on. And you can spin the massive downgrade of PS3 shipments all you want, but it does matter.

But anyway, start putting your money where your mouth is, and I'll start putting stock in your postings.


Thanks. Honestly I'm very happy with using the wireless controller. It does an excellent job, not clunky at all like using the PS2 controller with DVD's, the exact opposite really. Of course the SIXAXIS is shaped like a controller and that is a turn-off for some

I'm in the same boat as BenDover. There is no way my wife uses the Xbox 360 controller to run the HD DVD player. And she uses the player every night to put on DVD's for my 2 year old son before bedtime.

She's quite happy with the Logitech 360 remote though, and the 660 we used before that.


I believe it was the original post that Mike responded to that was meaningless to the HD format debate. Sales of a 6 year old console have little relevance

That was exactly my point.

[wco81]

anyhow, a dongle (isn't that a pejorative term around here?;)) would be a nice way to convert an IR remote into an RF-based remote!

Specifically, it's the BIG UGLY DONGLES (like the X360 power brick and the HD-DVD Add-On and its own power brick) which are an affront to engineering and general esthetics. :p

An IR sensor could attach directly to the USB port without any cables and not take up much space.

But as UniSXRD noted, Harmony/Logitech makes a relay transmitter which converts RF to IR which doesn't attach at all to anything. So it's technically not a dongle. ;)

Still, I wouldn't pay $100 premium for a RF/IR to Bluetooth relay transmitter either. One thing nice though is that if it's RF to Bluetooth, you wouldn't need line of sight at all so you can stow it away somewhere and forget about it, pretend it doesn't exist. :cool:

[Kosty]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kosty
Is it just me or has their been virtually no positive Blu-ray or PS3 news out for the month of November of December by anyone except official Sony or Blu-ray association spokespeople. Sounds like you have selective reading my friend or are just forgetfull(I say this based on your posting history as I've seen you post in topics with positive Blu-ray or PS3 news). I'm not saying it is just you as there are plenty of other people who turn a blind eye to positive news, but it certainly isn't everybody How about the PS/3 being a darn good BD player? How about the release of the Sony player? How about all the positive movie reviews?

Todays thedvdwars.com numbers:

HD DVD: 961.3
Blu-ray: 2118.7 (all time high is ~1920)

I believe that's the closest the two formats have been since late September (including Nov. 17).

If someone doesn't care about or like BD, it's not surprising they won't see the positives.

When exactly did all this stop being about HD movie discs and players?

Gary Hmm.. so HD-DVD is winning the propaganda "war".. ?? Well I do think it was a case of selective memory, but maybe that was my observation of the recent coverage and the point I was trying to make. BTW I do care about Blu-ray because I care about HD quality and I think Sony will not let Blu-ray die, so it will be around in one form or another for years, and I want it the best it can be.

There are some positive trends going for Blu-ray sales, in the Amazon stats, (the number of titles over 10,000 rank) and (the average top 10 ranking) as well as the detailed positive reviews on the power and elegance of the PS3 itself as well as the other new standalone players and quality and quantity of the new Blu-ray titles. Those are good things about Blu-ray, that I indeed have observed and commented upon.

But all that good stuff is seemingly being drowned out by media and analyst reports and reports of management changes and shipping numbers etc that seem to be a steady drip drip drip downbeat in the coverage of Blu-ray and a steady sunny spin to Xbox 360 and HD DVD issues.

Its like mainstream political reporters that usually bash one political party starting to sing the praises of the other side in subtle ways. The shift is noticable, and it seems that they all are starting to swim in the same direction by a pack mentality or they or their sources know something they are not telling us.

I know there has been a lot of positive Blu-ray developments, I'm just starting to see a noticable downward trend in the negative coverage of Blu-ray ever since the PS3 launch.

It's almost like those writers are kinda irritated that their high expectations weren't met.

Besides the positive snippets of press releases, can someone really show me a article written in the past couple weeks saying Blu-ray is going to win the format war? I can think of several in that time period now, of authors previously forecasting a Blu-ray win, that say HD DVD now has the advantage because of the Xbox 360 HD DVD player bundle. But none the other way.

I try to be balanced on these things, its just my observation, point out why I'm wrong. Maybe I'm just irritated because its cold outside and I can't get my mitts on a PS3 myself. ;)

[UxiSXRD]

Oh just admit you're a blatant HD-DVD partisan (though not as bad as rdjam). :)

Seriously though, I was intending to wait until March or April for the PS3 like I did for the 360 this last year but I am growing increasingly excited. Had a couple near misses where I was just a few people behind to get one and now I am quite eager for one. I've even already purchased a couple Blu-ray movies for it. News definitely looks good on PS3 from my perspective: far better Blu-ray player than i was expecting and I'm sure it will look handsome next to the 360 on my rack (though I wish they'd come out with a silver one already!).

[darinp2]

What exactly about his argument do you disagree with?I know you were asking somebody else, but from my standpoint, I don't know if he has any financial reasons for his opinions, but think that some of the stuff he wrote makes it look like he understands the subject matter less than a lot of people around here. Maybe even less than the average around here. I bet other people around here understand that the HD DVD camp is unlikely to be able to get 2 million working blue laser diodes into drives and sold this year, as Sony's issues with getting enough blue laser diodes are not just their issues, but industry issues for anybody wanting to build a ton of devices that use them in a very short time. His comments about if Microsoft can get a 20% attach rate then they could have nearly 4x the number of players in consumers hands as Sony with their 600,000 PS3s by the end of the year really don't make him look very knowledgable.

His math is also fairly suspect given that a 20% attach rate on 10 million units is 2 million and 2 million divided by 600,000 is 3.33. When a person puts forth numbers that come out to 3.33 and claims them as "nearly 4x" a red flag goes up for me. If he had arrived at nearly 4x the way that 2Channel did then I would have had a lot more respect for his knowledge on this subject matter. But with what he wrote, I wouldn't rely very heavily on what he says. I understand that doesn't mean that others won't rely on him though. It isn't uncommon for writers who are relied upon by many to actually be pretty lacking in their knowledge about the subject matter they are writing about.

I do think that it looks like there is currently a kind of pack mentality in the press against the PS3 and Blu-ray, just in the last week or two. I'm sure some of it is justified.

--Darin

[briankmonkey]

:)

[hongcho]

Add the two Sony models up (PS2 + PS3) and you get 861k vs. 511k for Xbox...

Another (interesting at least to me) way to view this with the dollar numbers. The prices are based on Amazon.com at some time on Dec. 7...

360 511.3K @ $400 = $205M
PS2 664K @ $130 = $86M
PS3 196.6K @ $600 = $118M
Wii 476K @ $250 = $119M

DS 918K @ $130 = $119M
GBA 641K @ $80 = $51M
PSP 411.9K @ $200 = $82M

Hong.

[b2bonez]

b2b, I am sorry my friend. Until you have decided to stop talking from the sidelines and actually jump into this format war with a player, it's just really hard for me to give any weight to what you're saying.

And BTW, in case you haven't read, the A2's are out now so those numbers will begin to rise once again for the HD DVD side. And of course you have the 360 add-on. And you can spin the massive downgrade of PS3 shipments all you want, but it does matter.

But anyway, start putting your money where your mouth is, and I'll start putting stock in your postings.


Chances of me putting money on a product...

1. HD-A1 (and its clones)... ZERO.. Buggy, slow 1G product that people will replace as soon as they can (there are already lots of folks in the HD-DVD player forum talking about doing this now that the A2 is out). Glad that I passed.. ;)

2. HD-A2... 10%.. Only if all of the bugs (skipping etc.) are fixed and if Universal clings to exclusive HD-DVD support.

3. Xbox addon... ZERO.. Don't own a Xbox and never intend to. HD-DVD addon makes for a clumsy contraption with a bunch of wires to connect up. I hate wires. No HDMI support.

4. Any of the many BD players that seem to work OK, but are 1G products too.... 20%

5. PS3... 90%... Does an excellent job of BD playback. Needs a bit more time (after all the units are put into service to see if any big bugs pop up). Same price as the A2 ($499) which makes it pretty much a "no brainer" compared to HD-DVD.

And last but not least... Where are the movies ??? Some nice re-runs, but big bucks for stuff on cable channels don't cut it... HD or not.. :confused:

b2b

[orogogus]

Some Panasonic BD Numbers (http://www.videobusiness.com/article/CA6398266.html)


Panasonic officials did not discuss shipment figures for its Blu-ray player, which launched in September. But sources believe the company will have shipped between 30,000 and 40,000 units worldwide by March.

For now, the company seems content keeping its $1,299-priced Blu-ray player displayed at such specialty outlets as Magnolia, Tweeter and Ultimate Electronics.

“The set-top box is an expensive proposition,” said Tsuyuzaki. “It’s different from the [$499 to $599] PlayStation 3 product.

Yes, it's different in that the PS3 is a more fully featured player! I guess a remote control and aesthetics are are worth $600-700??

[Kolgar]

What will PS3's affect be on all of this? I think my marketing heroes Al Ries and Jack Trout would have this to say:

PS3 will not have a significant effect on the success or failure of Blu-ray. In fact, it will find only middling success in both of the markets it is trying to straddle, games and movies. Why? Because of a concept called positioning. The word "PlayStation" means one thing: video games. Not HD movies. And there is little Sony can do to change that fact.

The idea is already in people's minds, a brand message 10 years in the making: PlayStation is a box for video games. A toy. Albeit an expensive toy this time, which is likely to put off existing PS fans and delay the console's penetration into the mass market.

If PlayStation 3 must struggle to win in its own category (and there are good reasons to suspect this will happen), how can it be expected to also fight and win a war in a different category?

Now, surely there will be an uptick in BD sales due to PS3. But will it be significant? Will it be sustained? Perhaps it will come fast enough and be large enough to jar a trigger-happy studio into defection, thus ending the war. But that is unknowable right now.

What is not unknowable is that, long term, the fate of BD lies with standalone players. It is the mass market that will decide this war, and the mass market will not buy a video game console to do an HD movie player's job. Even if the game console is also an excellent HD movie player. These decisions are not rational. Purchases like this, of entertainment products with relatively high price tags, are driven more by emotion than intellect. And emotionally, Average Jenny just will not be able to let her Average Joe husband buy a game machine to watch HD movies.

At least, that's what I think they'd say. Al? Jack? Are you out there? I could use your help in figuring this all out. :p

edited for clarity and edited again because I can't write today

[BenDover]

Chances of me putting money on a product...

1. HD-A1 (and its clones)... ZERO.. Buggy, slow 1G product that people will replace as soon as they can (there are already lots of folks in the HD-DVD player forum talking about doing this now that the A2 is out). Glad that I passed.. ;)

2. HD-A2... 10%.. Only if all of the bugs (skipping etc.) are fixed and if Universal clings to exclusive HD-DVD support.

3. Xbox addon... ZERO.. Don't own a Xbox and never intend to. HD-DVD addon makes for a clumsy contraption with a bunch of wires to connect up. I hate wires. No HDMI support.

4. Any of the many BD players that seem to work OK, but are 1G products too.... 20%

5. PS3... 90%... Does an excellent job of BD playback. Needs a bit more time (after all the units are put into service to see if any big bugs pop up). Same price as the A2 ($499) which makes it pretty much a "no brainer" compared to HD-DVD.

And last but not least... Where are the movies ??? Some nice re-runs, but big bucks for stuff on cable channels don't cut it... HD or not.. :confused:

b2b


too funny...i mean i wouldn't expect any different from a bd supporter/evangelist, but it is still funny to see you post that the hd dvd players must be perfect but the bd players may be forgiven of all their sins ;)

[BenDover]

What will PS3's affect be on all of this? I think my marketing heroes Al Ries and Jack Trout would have this to say:

PS3 will not have a significant effect on the success or failure of Blu-ray. In fact, it will find only middling success in both of the markets it is trying to straddle, games and movies. Why? Because of a concept called positioning. The word "PlayStation" means one thing: video games. Not HD movies. And there is little Sony can do to change that fact.

The idea is already in people's minds, a brand message 10 years in the making: PlayStation is a box for video games. A toy. Albeit an expensive toy this time, which is likely to put off existing PS fans and delay the console's penetration into the mass market.

If PlayStation 3 must struggle to win in its own category (and there are good reasons as to why that will happen), how can it be expected to also fight and win a war in a different category?

Now, surely there will be an uptick in BD sales due to PS3. But will it be significant? Will it be sustained? Perhaps it will come fast enough and be large enough to convince studios and CE manufacturers that BD is here to stay, in which case a studio from the HD DVD camp may defect and the war may be over. But that is unknowable right now.

What is not unknowable is that, long term, the fate of BD lies with standalone players. It is the mass market that will decide this war, and the mass market will not buy a video game console to do an HD movie player's job. Even if the game console is also an excellent HD movie player. These decisions are not rational. Purchases like this, of entertainment products with relatively high price tags, are driven more by emotion than intellect. And emotionally, Average Jenny just will not be able to let her husband Average Joe buy a game machine to watch HD movies.

At least, that's what I think they'd say. Al? Jack? Are you out there? I could use your help in figuring this all out. :p

edited for clarity

b2b, please run a background check on these characters and dish out all the dirt so that we can proceed to ignore them...thanks ;)

[kdragon]

Keeping format war aside for a moment:
How much money does Sony make on each PS2? It seems PS2 may provide an unexpected extra profit source to Sony. Since even analysts generally are surprised by strong PS2 sales, I doubt anyone considered this while estimating Sony's bottom-line. It seems that price+content+backwards-compatibility-of-PS3 is a good incentive for people who didn't/couldn't get PS3 to continue investing in PS2 games and/or consoles, and later move on to PS3. "Final Fantasy XII on the PS2 was the second best selling game for the month, with an amazing 896K units sold" as per GameDaily BIZ (http://biz.gamedaily.com/industry/feature/?id=14685)

[This is my attempt at a positive spin!]

[BenDover]

Keeping format war aside for a moment:
How much money does Sony make on each PS2? It seems PS2 may provide an unexpected extra profit source to Sony. Since even analysts generally are surprised by strong PS2 sales, I doubt anyone considered this while estimating Sony's bottom-line. It seems that price+content+backwards-compatibility-of-PS3 is a good incentive for people who didn't/couldn't get PS3 to continue investing in PS2 games and/or consoles, and later move on to PS3. "Final Fantasy XII on the PS2 was the second best selling game for the month, with an amazing 896K units sold" as per GameDaily BIZ (http://biz.gamedaily.com/industry/feature/?id=14685)

[This is my attempt at a positive spin!]

if i were sony i don't know whether i would want to be selling ps2 units...maybe during the short term while there are critical supply issues but at some point they are cannibalistic...

[kdragon]

if i were sony i don't know whether i would want to be selling ps2 units...maybe during the short term while there are critical supply issues but at some point they are cannibalistic...They will become cannibalistic if PS3's are left on the shelf. Seems we are far from that for several months.

[Kolgar]

b2b, please run a background check on these characters and dish out all the dirt so that we can proceed to ignore them...thanks ;)

Hehehe. I'll save him the trouble:

http://www.poolonline.com/bios/bioalries.html

They've been around forever, man. Ries now writes for Advertising Age, one of the premier industry pubs for the world of advertising.

www.advertisingage.com

:)

[b2bonez]

An impressive bit of spin... but just for giggles lets turn the tables and make it all about Xbox... you up for it... ??



What will Xbox's affect be on all of this? I think my marketing heroes Al Ries and Jack Trout would have this to say:

Xbox will not have a significant effect on the success or failure of HD-DVD. In fact, it will find only middling success in both of the markets it is trying to straddle, games and movies. Why? Because of a concept called positioning. The word "Xbox" means one thing: video games. Not HD movies. And there is little Microsoft can do to change that fact.

The idea is already in people's minds, a brand message 5 years in the making: Xbox is a box for video games. A toy. Albeit an expensive toy this time, which is likely to put off existing Xbox fans and delay the console's penetration into the mass market.

If Xbox 360 must struggle to win in its own category (and there are good reasons to suspect this will happen), how can it be expected to also fight and win a war in a different category?

Now, surely there will be an uptick in HD-DVD sales due to the Xbox addon. But will it be significant? Will it be sustained? Perhaps it will come fast enough and be large enough to jar a trigger-happy studio into defection, thus ending the war. But that is unknowable right now.

What is not unknowable is that, long term, the fate of HD-DVD lies with standalone players. It is the mass market that will decide this war, and the mass market will not buy a video game console to do an HD movie player's job. Even if the game console is also an excellent HD movie player. These decisions are not rational. Purchases like this, of entertainment products with relatively high price tags, are driven more by emotion than intellect. And emotionally, Average Jenny just will not be able to let her Average Joe husband buy a game machine to watch HD movies.

At least, that's what I think they'd say. Al? Jack? Are you out there? I could use your help in figuring this all out. :p

edited for clarity and edited again because I can't write today

Note: This quote was edited for descriptive purposes.


Now if you watch the previews on the "Miami Vice" DVD you will see just the sort of targeted marketing for the Xbox 360 as you are going to see for the PS3. It's gonna happen, there is no way that any studio (except the numbskull at TW maybe) will pass on a couple of million installed BD players (in the form of the PS3) and not market to that base.

b2b

[wco81]

I predict we will have this thread or one about the gaming/Blu-Ray market share and installed base for a couple of years.

As the franchises which made Playstation brand dominant start to come out, they will be spinning and saying PS3 can't sell 100 million again.

[Kolgar]

An impressive bit of spin... but just for giggles lets turn the tables and make it all about Xbox... you up for it... ??

b2b

Spin? Sorry, no - just marketing theory. :)

This whole thing is so complex, with so many variables, that there's no way anyone can predict how this will go. All I can do is apply some important principles while allowing that sometimes, the unexpected happens.

My take on your proposition is that there's a fundamental difference between the two consoles. On the one hand, PS3 builds a BD drive right in. This is a double-edged sword because while it makes the "Trojan Horse" possible, it also adds $200 to the price of the game console, which undoubtedly alienates people who would otherwise buy PS3 without question based on brand alone.

Alternatively, Microsoft has given people a choice. Gamers - these machines' primary audience - can buy into next-gen video games for a "mere" $300/400. (Still too high, IMO.) They aren't forced to pay extra for features they may not use. But yet, once they have that console, down the line if they decide they want to get into HD movies, the cost of entry is perceived as a "low" $199.

(I admit that I fall into this category. Once people posted links to that Circuit City coupon for $40 off, I went right out and bought an HD add-on. $160 for HD, with a movie and remote control packed in? A no-brainer, and previously, I wasn't even CONSIDERING jumping in until the format war was decided.)

Ultimately, I think Microsoft's add-on somewhat dilutes the effect of PS3's BR drive, at least here in America. (At least we can be sure that those devices are being used to play HD movies. With PS3, it's guesswork.) And because it is an optional purchase at an attractive price, the peripheral gives HD DVD the boost it needs to stay in the game. For Sony, the BR drive may in fact hamper the success of its game console, which would be the very definition of "backfire."

I would also note that if this war comes down to standalone players, HD DVD holds an advantage at the moment because it offers a practically identical experience for less money.

In sum, I guess I'm of the opinion that the HD add-on helps Xbox 360 and HD DVD, while the BD drive hurts PS3 insofar as the console will be at a distinct price disadvantage in its "home category" throughout the entire generation. Only later, when the price comes down in price, will the BR player seem "free," thus making the console a bargain to the masses. By this time, maybe devs will have found meaningful ways to enhance games via the extra storage space as well.

There's probably holes in the above in part because this is complex and in part because I'm in a hurry. Will stop back eventually to see how you respond. :p

edit: summary

[UxiSXRD]

(I admit that I fall into this category. Once people posted links to that Circuit City coupon for $40 off, I went right out and bought an HD add-on. $160 for HD, with a movie and remote control packed in? A no-brainer, and previously, I wasn't even CONSIDERING jumping in until the format war was decided.)


Likewise. Even though the plummeting prices of the XA1 were making it pretty attractive. I was VERY close to getting an XA1. It's certainly an attractive unit, even if's a huge beast. Part of me still wants one (I'm a computer guy -systems administration professionally, and general hardware/programming/software tinkering as a hobbyist) and I find the upgrade prospects intruiging and I still hope to pick up a second hand one in the coming months as people shift to the 2G players. My AVR still has open 5.1 analog inputs that heartily await TrueHD goodness that neither the PS or 360 can deliver.

The quirks of the 1G players always stacked up too high, though, being a gamer, I already owned a 360 and the subsequent $159 additional was just too good to pass up. The ergonomics (2 more additional wires between the drive and the 360) are a bit annoying, as is the aesthetics of the separate drive which are awkward at best (I just can't seem to find the right place to put it, but when I get a PS3 i'll probably stand it veritcally and move the 360 from it's centered horizontal position to the opposite side of the PS3 and stand it vertically). Aesthetically, the 360 is very loud on it's own, though I don't think the HD-DVD added at all to that.



I would also note that if this war comes down to standalone players, HD DVD holds an advantage at the moment because it offers a practically identical experience for less money.


This is where the lack of CE support hurts HD-DVD IMO. The only drive available RIGHT NOW is the 360 add-on, which for someone who isn't already a gamer, is an expensive, unwieldy, and unlikely proposition. Apparently the A2's are beginning to ship, but they're still 1 player from 1 make versus the Sony, Panasonic, Samsung, and Philips standalones.

[b2bonez]

[Note: We have been politely asked to remove some data points from this article because the NPD has discovered errors in its historical data. This affects year-to-date references, install base numbers and the full-year outlook, which this article previously contained. We will replace the missing figures as soon as NPD updates us with the corrected data.]

Interesting comments about the NPD data. What was deleated was the reference to Xbox sales reaching 3.8 million in the US. Now why they were "politely asked" to remove that data is anyones guess, but it sure is less than the 10 million "sales" MS has been shouting about here of late.

http://biz.gamedaily.com/industry/feature/?id=14685

b2b

[UxiSXRD]

Well North America is the primary market for the 360 seeing how it hasn't been the best seller in asia. How's the 360 doing in Europe?

[BenDover]

let me throw in a lending hand, it was hard to miss buried in your quote:

...because the NPD has discovered errors in its historical data. This affects year-to-date references, install base numbers and the full-year outlook, which this article previously contained. We will replace the missing figures as soon as NPD updates us with the corrected data.

[b2bonez]

let me throw in a lending hand, it was hard to miss buried in your quote:

Well I actually thought the 3.8 mil. was good. The best I had seen before that was 2.5 mil.

Edit: Found another quote... they must have missed Canada.. ;)
LOS ANGELES (Reuters) - The U.S. sales of Microsoft Corp.'s new Xbox 360 video game console during its first 13 months in stores were 6 percent higher than comparable sales of the original Xbox, market research group NPD said on Thursday.

During that period, consumers bought 3.79 million units of the Xbox 360, released in November 2005.

That compares with the original Xbox, which was released in November 2001 and sold 3.57 million units in its first 13 months in stores.

NPD measures roughly 60 percent of U.S. video game-related retail sales and makes projections on the remainder of the market.

http://ca.today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=technologyNews&storyID=2006-12-07T224130Z_01_NC7293448_RTRIDST_0_TECH-MEDIA-MICROSOFT-XBOX-COL.XML&archived=False

b2b

[mikemorel]

David Karraker shows he knows how to be a good Sony Soldier when dealing with the press. He can BS like his mentors. Let's dissect.

Sony: PS3 Issues 'Resolved', 1mil By End Of 2006 (http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=12051)

On the heels of video game hardware and software U.S. sales numbers for November released yesterday by NPD, Sony's PR head David Karraker has issued a statement noting that the company is “very pleased” with the data, adding that manufacturing problems that ham stringed the production of the PlayStation 3 at launch “have been resolved.”So he is very pleased with selling an exteremely small fraction of the units that were promised to the world in April. BD supporters - do you mind if I use that as my Sig?

And how have the problems been resolved? Any mention of blue laser diodes? Nope. Did they have some sort of revelation - did aliens give Scotty the key to manufacturing liquid aluminum? After all blue laser diodes have been known to be hard to manufacure for quite some time.

NPD data found that following the November 17 launch of the PlayStation 3 in North America, Sony had only shipped 197,000 units during its debut month rather than the earlier projected 400,000. However, Karraker reiterated in the official statement that both he and Sony “remain focused on having one million PS3's in the pipeline by December 31, 2006,” while at the same time echoing Sony's earlier commitment to airlift consoles to retail outlets within North America for the remainder of the year.OK - so you remained focused, David - great. Does that mean you will deliver? Not from this statement.

In addition, despite the somewhat anemic PlayStation 3 hardware sales numbers, Sony expressed enthusiasm over the performance of both its entrenched PlayStation 2 console as well as its PSP handheld."Look at our past triumphs! Why shouldn't that continue?"

We will continue to utilize airfreight delivery for PlayStation 3 to assure a steady stream of systems for North American consumers through the end of the year. So what happens after the end of the year? After all, shipping by sea takes 50 days. So we could expect zero (0) sales for January?

And while initial day-one launch shipment goals weren't achievable due to early manufacturing issues, those problems have been resolved and we do remain focused on having one million PS3's in the pipeline by December 31, 2006.”Yes David - we will be watching...BTW what does "in the pipeline" mean? Anyone? I've heard of "sold to retail", which both MS and Sony use, but this is a first...If there is a PS3 lying in pieces on the floor of the assembly plant in China, does that count?

I imagine studios have had enough of this BS...

[briankmonkey]

"do you mind if I use that as my Sig?"

I say if it makes you feel better inside go for it ;)

[mikemorel]

"do you mind if I use that as my Sig?"

I say if it makes you feel better inside go for it ;)How come you haven't responded to my retort yesterday? I'm interested to hear where you think I'm wrong.

[b2bonez]

David Karraker shows he knows how to be a good Sony Soldier when dealing with the press. He can BS like his mentors. Let's dissect.

Sony: PS3 Issues 'Resolved', 1mil By End Of 2006 (http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=12051)

So he is very pleased with selling an exteremely small fraction of the units that were promised to the world in April. BD supporters - do you mind if I use that as my Sig?

And how have the problems been resolved? Any mention of blue laser diodes? Nope. Did they have some sort of revelation - did aliens give Scotty the key to manufacturing liquid aluminum? After all blue laser diodes have been known to be hard to manufacure for quite some time.

OK - so you remained focused, David - great. Does that mean you will deliver? Not from this statement.

"Look at our past triumphs! Why shouldn't that continue?"

So what happens after the end of the year? After all, shipping by sea takes 50 days. So we could expect zero (0) sales for January?

Yes David - we will be watching...BTW what does "in the pipeline" mean? Anyone? I've heard of "sold to retail", which both MS and Sony use, but this is a first...If there is a PS3 lying in pieces on the floor of the assembly plant in China, does that count?

I imagine studios have had enough of this BS...

So are you that mad about not being able to find a PS3 yet... ?? :)

b2b

[wco81]

What do you expect Sony to say?

"Oh, we're doomed!" "Congratulations Microsoft for winning this generation!"

"We give up! We're not going to try to bother increasing production or sales because the launch didn't meet the expectations of mikemorel on AVS forums!"

"Uncle, uncle, uncle!"

"We suggest everyone interested in consoles and high-def players go buy X360 and HD-DVD players RIGHT NOW!"

[b2bonez]

Interesting bit of info from Bill Hunt as posted on a thread here on AVS..
Meanwhile, Warner has informed me that the studio is committed to catching up with their Blu-ray Disc releases in 2007, so that all previously released HD-DVD titles will be available on Blu-ray as well, and future titles will be released on both formats simultaneously.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=765309

b2b

[Michael Mullis]

3. Xbox addon... ZERO.. Don't own a Xbox and never intend to. HD-DVD addon makes for a clumsy contraption with a bunch of wires to connect up. I hate wires.


Which tells me you haven't seen one set up yet. My add-on looks just fine on my shelf, and you can't even see the USB cable or the power cable because they go out the back. Again, more FUD by someone who doesn't own the equipment they are trying to bash. Or own anything for that matter.


Interesting bit of info from Bill Hunt as posted on a thread here on AVS..

I see you haven't done any FBI checks on Bill Hunt yet. Maybe we can find a connection to Samsung or something. ;)

[mikemorel]

What do you expect Sony to say?

"Oh, we're doomed!" "Congratulations Microsoft for winning this generation!"

"We give up! We're not going to try to bother increasing production or sales because the launch didn't meet the expectations of mikemorel on AVS forums!"

"Uncle, uncle, uncle!"

"We suggest everyone interested in consoles and high-def players go buy X360 and HD-DVD players RIGHT NOW!"The reason Sony is losing is because they are bundling blu-ray into their flagship gaming console. If they would have slapped a high speed DVD player and kept everything else the same (e.g. CELL, RSX, etc.) they would be kicking MS's ass by now in gaming on marketing alone (100 million PS2s)...Which is the way it should have gone.

I posted an article last January from EETimes which quoted a Sony rep saying "we will probably include blu ray" - which suggested internal strife over BD. Of course I was torn a new one by BD supporters saying it was a low level flunky who didn't know what he was talking about (JD Blacklow?).

I believe MS didn't really believe Sony would go through with their BD plans, which is why it has taken so long for them to integrate HD-DVD. They couldn't believe Sony would actually include BD when the blue ray diode situation looked so dire back in January 2006. I posted an article in April which quoted Howard Stringer saying "we won't be bullied by Microsoft" which in my mind triggered the go ahead for blu-ray in PS3. And so goes history...

[b2bonez]

Which tells me you haven't seen one set up yet. My add-on looks just fine on my shelf, and you can't even see the USB cable or the power cable because they go out the back. Again, more FUD by someone who doesn't own the equipment they are trying to bash. Or own anything for that matter.




I see you haven't done any FBI checks on Bill Hunt yet. Maybe we can find a connection to Samsung or something. ;)

Don't have to. He is well known and a member here on AVS.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/member.php?u=7587775

His latest postingFirst you guys are complaining that I'm obviously pro Blu-ray... then you're complaining that I must be pro HD-DVD. Now people are complaining that I'm NOT clearly taking a side yet?! Be nice if you guys would make up yo