HiDef DVD News VII - News Only : AND WE MEAN IT: NEWS ONLY [Text View] - Page 7

darinp2

12-07-06, 01:49 PM

Like I said, he didn't say the 20% of HD DVD drives that attched would do so by the end of the year, which was your "extension of his statement" that I criticised.

Yes, he does use MS' number of 10 million by the end of the year - but he does not state that the 20% would attach this year.

So if I see statements that are not what was said, then yes, I will point them out :)

Peace...I honestly don't understand why you are arguing against this. Do you understand that the 600,000 number he used for the PS3 was for the end of the year and if the 20% for the add-on wasn't by the end of the year, then he couldn't use 600,000 as the divisor to get his "nearly 4x"? And that if it was for some time next year or the year after, then the run rate would have to be nearly 20x for XBOX360s sold in order to maintain nearly 4x, using his logic of 20% and 4x? I don't think he should have to put "end of this year" in every single sentence for it to be clear that he was talking about the end of this year. And if he wasn't talking about the end of this year, then his logic is severly flawed since he would have to use the number of PS3s at whatever point he wanted the "nearly 4x" to stick.

If you still believe that the 20% he used wasn't for the end of the year, please tell us how he came to his "nearly 4x" in:
If Microsoft has just a 20 percent attach rate for its US$200 drive -- which is selling out, by the way -- it will have nearly 4x the number of HD DVD drives in consumer hands."given his 600,000 number for the PS3 for the end of the year and that the PS3 sales won't stop on December 31st.

--Darin

darinp2

12-07-06, 01:52 PM

how can it have 1.5Mb/s DD? DD is limited to 640k, unless its using DD+.

I think highdef digest is confused, and just assumed that it was the same as on the HD DVD.Sounds like somebody with a PS3 should check this one. I don't get it either.

--Darin

mikemorel

12-07-06, 02:04 PM

BetaNews, maybe biased, but...since it appears the hi-def dvd wars will be won or lost by game consoles...

Has Xbox 360 Already Won the War? (http://www.betanews.com/article/Has_Xbox_360_Already_Won_the_War/1165514003)

Twice in the past week, Microsoft officials have mentioned the magic 10 million number. It has significance, as in each of the previous video game generations, the first to that level ended up being the best selling console overall.
...
Many analysts are cautioning that the company may be setting itself up for embarrassment and retaliation from shareholders if it fails to meet this goal. However, in an interview with Bloomberg, Moore upped the ante even more.

Asked by the news service whether the company was likely to beat that outlook, Moore agreed, saying the Thanksgiving weekend was a stellar one for Microsoft and Xbox.

Numbers obtained by BetaNews seem to back up Moore's claim. Sources say the company sold as many as 100,000 consoles per day in the period surrounding Thanksgiving weekend. Numbers were on the high end of expectations, according to the data.

Additionally, Microsoft was helped out by weaker than expected sales of both the Wii and PS3 during the same period, indicating that shoppers looking for a next-gen console may have been opting for Microsoft's entrant over others due to availability.

While the most recent data shows six million Xbox 360 consoles sold as of September 30, internal data indicates Microsoft may have sold more than eight million units as of the end of November.

Reaching the 10 million goal is just now a matter of sales: about a week ago the company shipped its ten millionth console. And from the looks of things, hitting the mark may not be that difficult.

Industry watchers are beginning to believe, too. "Microsoft's lead seems unbeatable now, fueled by a one year head start, the raging success of Gears of War as 2006's killer app, and most recently, a blitzkrieg of promotion for Halo 3, scheduled for 2007," GigaOM's Wagner James Au said.

b2bonez

12-07-06, 02:06 PM

You've gone silent b2b. You seem to feel that 10% of PS3 buyers becoming BD movie buyers is unrealistically low. Can you tell us what you believe is a reasonable adoption rate?

I would venture to guess that > 90% of the 500,000 people who buy a PS3 with the included BD movie disc will choose to pop it into the drive and watch the movie. What their BD movie buying/renting habits from that point on is a something that is beyond my estimation (there are no precedents for this kind of product feature).

I have talked to the local Hollywood rental location and they are going to start having both BD and HD-DVD discs. So with a 100% chance that every PS3 will play BD movies, all that is different is picking the BD movie vs DVD or HD-DVD for a simple rental.

That's before all of the BD studios start marketing to that 100% BD movie playing base that PS3 represents.. ;)

Fox is already doing that as evidenced by having Xmen 3 right in the case next to the PS3 games....

b2b

g55555sim

12-07-06, 02:24 PM

While Microsoft might be able to get as many blue lasers as Sony, to even imply that they could have 2 million in people's hands by the end of the year seems fairly ridiculous. He also seems to assume that Microsoft's number of 10 million by the end of the year was in consumer's hands, when I believe the only claim I've seen from them was for the number shipped out. --Darin ouch !! good news for you .. a report has named a MS spokeperson raising the Xbox year end figure to more than 10mil and changing the status of the figure from 'shipped' to 'sold'.

http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/multimedia/display/20061206232845.html

g55555sim

12-07-06, 02:30 PM

Microsoft Promises to Sell Over 10 Million Xbox 360 by Year End

opps this is from Reuters :

“This holiday, we expect to have sold in excess of 10 million units worldwide,” a Microsoft spokeswoman said, according to a news-story by Reuters agency.

That “sold” number refers to units “sold into retail”, which refers to units in transit, units sitting in store inventories and machines sold to consumers, the news-agency noted. Previously, the software giant hoped to ship about 10 million of Xbox 360 consoles by the end of the year, whereas by-mid 2007 approximately 13 to 15 million were expected to be installed. It is unclear whether the number of consoles to be sold in 6-7 months time was also increased.

http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=technologyNews&storyID=2006-12-06T211849Z_01_NC6397611_RTRUKOC_0_US-MICROSOFT-XBOX360.xml&WTmodLoc=Home-C5-technologyNews-3

scaesare

12-07-06, 02:35 PM

I don't undersand what you are saying in this post... (??)

b2b

I'll bet ya we'll see another 24p-capable HD dVD player by end of June '07.

Whoever wins gets to author the other's AVS sig for a month.

briankmonkey

12-07-06, 02:38 PM

Microsoft Promises to Sell Over 10 Million Xbox 360 by Year End

opps this is from Reuters :

That “sold” number refers to units “sold into retail”, which refers to units in transit, units sitting in store inventories and machines sold to consumers, the news-agency noted. Previously, the software giant hoped to ship about 10 million of Xbox 360 consoles by the end of the year, whereas by-mid 2007 approximately 13 to 15 million were expected to be installed. It is unclear whether the number of consoles to be sold in 6-7 months time was also increased.

http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=technologyNews&storyID=2006-12-06T211849Z_01_NC6397611_RTRUKOC_0_US-MICROSOFT-XBOX360.xml&WTmodLoc=Home-C5-technologyNews-3

back and forth back and forth... Before it was:

Microsoft Corp. Chairman and Chief Software Architect Bill Gates today staked the claim that the Xbox 360™ system will have a 10 million-unit head start by the time the competition enters the market

http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/2006/may06/05-09E32006BriefingPR.mspx

Why not just say they'll have 40 million or billion then switch it back down to 8 million :p

oh yeah, another MS exect already said: "J Allard (Microsoft Corporate Vice President), who heads Microsoft’s video-game efforts, has boldly predicted that one billion people will eventually play games on the new console."

lmfao

2Channel

12-07-06, 02:41 PM

Another article on the demise of the Playstation franchise. I believe this whole event qualifies as a greek tragedy.....hubris, causing your own demise.....

http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=5226

While no one can argue that the PlayStation 3 is a technological marvel, analysts say that Sony bet too heavily on hardware for the latest console generation, and because of that, it has paid dearly for delays in manufacturing and high costs.

The delays and lack of hardware availability also gives competitors Nintendo and Microsoft greater opportunity at grabbing marketshare.

With the above in mind, it’s no wonder that some analysts are pegging Sony to go the way of Sega.

BD supporters better hope that b2b is right and that BD movie adoption rates are huge among PS3 buyers. Personally, I've got my money on that Dick Parsons fellow from Time Warner. ;)

b2bonez

12-07-06, 02:44 PM

I'll bet ya we'll see another 24p-capable HD dVD player by end of June '07.

Whoever wins gets to author the other's AVS sig for a month.

Nope.. don't think so.. Besides your sig is perfect as is. I wouldn't change a thing... ;)

b2b

darinp2

12-07-06, 02:46 PM

ouch !! good news for you .. a report has named a MS spokeperson raising the Xbox year end figure to more than 10mil and changing the status of the figure from 'shipped' to 'sold'.

http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/multimedia/display/20061206232845.htmlI saw that they have basically raised their numbers. Looks like they are doing well. Now it will be interesting to see how add-on sales go. From looking around they are selling really well in my area, but I also notice that Amazon has them in stock, so they can be had by those who want them. They are also now down to #124 in sales for their area.

--Darin

briankmonkey

12-07-06, 02:47 PM

I forget to include how MS planned on 1 billion

On being asked (J.Allard) about the 1 billion prediction - “Well, we force everybody to go buy new hardware every five years. That helps.”

http://blog.taragana.com/index.php/archive/xbox-360-reaching-1-billion-people-interesting-interview-of-j-allard-microsoft-corporate-vice-president/

Yeah and MS anti-sony fans say Sony is arrogant. lol

b2bonez

12-07-06, 02:51 PM

crussader

12-07-06, 03:11 PM

BD supporters better hope that b2b is right and that BD movie adoption rates are huge among PS3 buyers.

I am guessing that initially a fairly large percentage of PS3 owners (70%?) will go out and pick up a movie or two. BD sales will spike and BD fans will stand up everywhere and shout victory. However, I don't believe the initial attach rates will be sustainable and we'll see a similar sales pattern to UMD.

The question is how big will the spike be in comparison to HD sales, and can HD weather the storm until the spike passes.

briankmonkey

12-07-06, 03:13 PM

All I know is now that I have Blu-ray I'm not buying or renting DVD unless it is unavoidable. DVD feels so dated. Blu-ray movies are gorgeous and sound fantastic :)

chad_cincy

12-07-06, 03:28 PM

oh yeah, another MS exect already said: "J Allard (Microsoft Corporate Vice President), who heads Microsoft’s video-game efforts, has boldly predicted that one billion people will eventually play games on the new console."

lmfao
I forget to include how MS planned on 1 billion

Quote:
On being asked (J.Allard) about the 1 billion prediction - “Well, we force everybody to go buy new hardware every five years. That helps.”

http://blog.taragana.com/index.php/...vice-president/

Yeah and MS anti-sony fans say Sony is arrogant. lol
Brian, too much koolaid?

J Allard's original quote:

If we work together to create games and experiences that really deliver on the promise of the HD era, as an industry we'll take games places they've never been before.

In the HD era, we are going to reach 1 billion people with our medium [see above ~Chad].

This is a great industry, it's a great business. Our revenues keep growing faster than music, than movies, than television. We're at the cutting edge of technology and the leading edge of imagination.

http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/exec/rbach/05-16-05E3.mspx
Follow up interview where Allard re-explained his 1 billion quote:
We're in the business that's facing higher production costs and we're not going to be able to increase the price of the consumer material. So I look at it and say, it looks good on paper, but if we want true growth we need to grow the market. Collectively we're not doing a good job, so we're not going to sell a billion Xbox 360s, I mean I'd love to, but collectively between handheld, PC and all the consoles, if the industry aspires to be as big as movies, music, TV, books, all the other entertainment mediums then a billion is a good number to aim for.

http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=120658
You're in danger of going off the deep end... :p

briankmonkey

12-07-06, 03:37 PM

I'm a good swimmer Chad, I like the deep end as it gives me more room to maneuver (kind of like blu-ray) :) And yes, I'm well aware of J. Allard's history of backpedaling.

To answer your question, I certainly don't drink the green koolaid.

chad_cincy

12-07-06, 04:05 PM

Backpedaling? Lets just take a look at the original article that your quotes originate from (although I suspect, you may have gotten them from more nefarious sources that quoted them completely out of context):

http://www.thestreet.com/pf/tech/software/10225293.html

So your original quote was actually a false assumption by the author, Troy Wolverton, never uttered by J. Troy presents this premise to J. and J. responds:
Q: At the press event last week, you predicted that a billion people would play the Xbox 360. How did you come up with that figure?

The thing about that comment is it's really intended to be an inspirational comment for the industry. Right now, more people enjoy movies, music, television and movies than they do video games.Later in the same answer is your second quote where he is describing the current state of the industry as a whole and why the financials look as rosey as they do, but goes on to explain that he believes it's important to truly grow the industry not just force their enthusiastic base to upgrade hardware and software each generation. And again, this is a comment on the industry as a whole. Both for the way it currently works and his vision of the future.
The thing about that comment is it's really intended to be an inspirational comment for the industry. Right now, more people enjoy movies, music, television and movies than they do video games.

Our revenue growth is great, right? If you look at all the numbers, you say, "We're doing great as an industry." Well, we force everybody to go buy new hardware every five years. That helps. Our average selling point of content is $50 or $42 or whatever you want to call it. That helps, right? And the fact that we have such an enthusiast [base] that consumes so much, it drives up those numbers.

That's great, but how do we invite people back in and turn the world into gamers? To think that there are a billion people in the world that can read or watch movies or play music, nobody would scoff at that. But if you say, 'We're going to get a billion people to go play games,' that's a big dream.

And so, it's more a challenge to the industry to say, 'Hey, we're all going to appeal to the core [gamers] , but let's all do our part to take it to the next level.
So when in context, it all comes back to the his original quote and interviews just fine.

rdjam

12-07-06, 04:17 PM

BetaNews, maybe biased, but...since it appears the hi-def dvd wars will be won or lost by game consoles...

Has Xbox 360 Already Won the War? (http://www.betanews.com/article/Has_Xbox_360_Already_Won_the_War/1165514003)
Very interesting - some people keep coming back here and saying that MS' numbers are "only shipped" - but this article CLEARLY states that at the end of November they've sold 8 Million and shipped 10 Million...

Not bad...

rdjam

12-07-06, 04:21 PM

Whoever wins gets to author the other's AVS sig for a month.
A fate worse than death!! :p

rdjam

12-07-06, 04:29 PM

Another article on the demise of the Playstation franchise. I believe this whole event qualifies as a greek tragedy.....hubris, causing your own demise.....

http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=5226
WHOAHA!!

This bit caught MY eye...

Sony also has to deal with several issues surrounding its new machine. For one, those who have HDTV compatible television sets but do not support 720p will be unable to play many new PS3 games in high-definition. This is because the PS3 lacks an internal upscaler, and will automatically downscale high-definition images to 480p, resulting in a dramatic loss of visual quality. Sony said that a fix was in the works, but later backtracked saying that the company has yet to announce any action towards the issue.

briankmonkey

12-07-06, 04:30 PM

I did not stutter, backpeddaling is correct Chad. I'll show you another example of his backpedalling since you have the question.

Microsoft's Moore: "Nobody is Concerned About Backward Compatibility" (http://www.gamepro.com/news.cfm?article_id=61308)

Microsoft's Peter Moore downplays the importance of backward compatibility on the Xbox 360, saying "we under promised and over delivered on that."

The Verdict by JohnnyK
To say that Microsoft delivered more than it promised is a smack in the face of every single Xbox 360 gamer who was looking forward to backwards compatibility.

If you visit Microsoft's website, they state that one of their goals is to have every single original Xbox game playable on the 360. Apparently, there are a lot less Xbox games than I was aware of. Peter Moore might want to get a new tattoo next to that GTA IV one that reads "Liar."

Xbox 360 frontman Peter Moore has apologized for his recent comments concerning the system's limited backward compatibility features, chalking the experience up to a "misinterpretation." (http://www.gamepro.com/news.cfm?article_id=65448)

Of course those who blindly worship MS will not call it backpeddalling but at the time thousands upon thousands of xbox360 owners sure did.

chad_cincy

12-07-06, 04:39 PM

briankmonkey

12-07-06, 04:43 PM

Well, Moore isn't Allard for one and I'll take your changing the person and the quote as an admission your done defending the original quote. Which is fine by me, as I really have no more interest in it. :)

Good catch Chad.

Oh know, I mixed up 2 Microsoft executives. Sorry, I'm not perfect and faultered on keeping up with which MS exect did damage control at a certain time. :p

SamwisetheBrave

12-07-06, 05:28 PM

"The Magic has Arrived !!"

At least according to Disney... Check out the latest "previews" on Pirates 2 for a "BluRay" spot. Doesn't look like good ole Disney has any "HD-DVD" plans anytime soon.. ;)

b2b
Then they ain't gettin' any of my money soon! :mad:

mikemorel

12-07-06, 06:18 PM

Looks like Jennifer over at Video Business is taking up the cause...

HD DVD petition backers take on PS3 (http://www.videobusiness.com/blog/1730000173/post/270005827.html)

Now called HD DVD Now, the group of rabid HD DVD supporters petitioning Blu-ray-only studios to put out movies on HD DVD have set up a web site where they are continuing to collect petition signatures. So far, they've collected 2,300 signatures, according to Edward Downer, who started the petition drive.

Backers also put up a critique of the PS3 launch, calling it a "dramatic failure," which, I don't know, may be overstating things just a bit.

briankmonkey

12-07-06, 06:23 PM

mikemorel

12-07-06, 06:43 PM

Interesting "rabid HD-DVD supporters" begging for piece of the blu-ray pie, lolIt's a small pie - the PS3 sold 197k units in the month of November. (http://biz.gamedaily.com/industry/feature/?id=14685) Apparently that's all the diodes they could muster. I don't expect December will be much better, do you?

g55555sim

12-07-06, 06:55 PM

good news for those who claimed that we wont be seing more HD DVD players till next year. The HD DVD thread is buzzing up. At least one consumer claimed to have already owning the A2 player (from BB). Value Electronics president :p Robert has ALSO confirmed that he has shipped pre orders for the same player TODAY.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=764683

Yes, got A2 From BB today!

I know there are many questions, and I only had chance to do quick test but so far it's much better than A1 for performance. I checked out the first problem title for most folks with E.O.Days and played TrueHD track flawless not lag, pause or hiccups at all. Then checked out some of KK just to be sure it works and just fine with it.

briankmonkey

12-07-06, 06:55 PM

g55555sim

12-07-06, 06:56 PM

robert's confirmation :

earpiece actually we are shipping today. This HD player is fantastic. Fast loading, great responsive remote control, beautiful chassis, unbelievable picture and audio quality as great as my XA1 playing the same movie on the same Pioneer Elite PROFHD1 50" 1080p plasma display. (I'm using a Gefen 2x1 HDMI splitter so I can quickly switch sources, XA1/A2).

Yes, you heard it right, thanks to Toshiba we are shipping today!!!

TimV your order will ship on 12/14 as you said and we ship by Fed Ex home ground delivery so your order will be delivered on 12/21 or 12/22 at the latest.

-Robert

Michael Mullis

12-07-06, 06:57 PM

I don't think blu-ray's much larger studio support will change in November.

No, but I'm betting since they aren't going to sell 800,000 units in December you will see some changes come January, February.

Issac Hunt

12-07-06, 07:12 PM

HD DVD fans have been placing that bet for many months now...

Q of BanditZ

12-07-06, 07:17 PM

"The Magic has Arrived !!"

At least according to Disney... Check out the latest "previews" on Pirates 2 for a "BluRay" spot. Doesn't look like good ole Disney has any "HD-DVD" plans anytime soon..

b2b

Excellent! I'll be buying those the first day they're out! :)

g55555sim

12-07-06, 07:17 PM

Reuters picked up the internet negative buzz on BD and came out with another BD headline: and we all know what happens when Reuters picked up stories: there will be more than 3 (30page) pages news result when we do a google BD or HD DVD :P

Blu-ray DVD drive no bonus for some PS3 buyers

the advanced Blu-ray DVD drive is annoying some by raising the cost, slowing production and forcing them to buy into a format they've not yet aligned with.

"Blu-ray is adding $150 to $200 to the product. They've created something that is not for today's market. It's not a market driver, it's only driving the price higher"

http://today.reuters.com/news/articleinvesting.aspx?view=CN&symbol=&storyID=2006-12-07T234811Z_01_N07345685_RTRIDST_0_SONY-PS3-BLURAY-UPDATE-1.XML&pageNumber=0&WTModLoc=InvArt-C1-ArticlePage2&sz=

briankmonkey

12-07-06, 07:19 PM

No, but I'm betting since they aren't going to sell 800,000 units in December you will see some changes come January, February.

But this supposed to happen 2 months ago when blu-ray was killed off :p

Michael Mullis

12-07-06, 07:23 PM

HD DVD fans have been placing that bet for many months now...

And now you see why. ;)

Blu-ray DVD drive no bonus for some PS3 buyers

Sue Zeidler attacked in 5......4........3........2.........1........

g55555sim

12-07-06, 07:27 PM

and this one is creatively funny.

SHIFT: A eulogy for physical media (BD and HD DVD included)

Dearly beloved,

We are gathered here today to mourn the loss of our friends the CD, the DVD, the HD DVD, the Blu-ray Disc, and every other physical media format. For many years they stood by us and provided us with handy ways for us to consume our favorite media, but their time has come and gone. In order for us to get some closure I've gathered us here to talk about our fondest memories and to recount those last harrowing years as our friends desperately clung to life. They were fighters, weren't they? Right to the very end. But here we are, coming up to the end of 2010, and look at how things have changed. President Obama has cured both AIDS and cancer personally, there's a colony on the moon, and all music, video, and photography is enjoyed exclusively in digital form.

:) :P

http://blog.scifi.com/tech/pics/formateulogy.jpg

http://blog.scifi.com/tech/archives/2006/12/07/shift_a_eulogy.html

Kolgar

12-07-06, 07:54 PM

Oh, Andy Parsons. You silly willy.

Differences between PS2 and PS3 are:

1) PS2 was actually affordably priced
2) PS2 was riding the wave of a disc format that was already well on its way to acceptance

This ain't that. PS3 will not be a savior for anybody. In fact, it'll have a tough enough fight for its own position in the gaming space.

hdkhang

12-07-06, 08:02 PM

One only needs to go to the HD-DVD software forum and it's tier thread specifically to see many poor VC1 encodes.

Quickly looking over that thread, the tier system is faulty as it is about what looks like eye candy, not what looks faithful to the original, there is a difference. Disagreeances on titles like The Perfect Storm for example where the original is intentionally soft leading to many placing it in a low tier despite it's visual transparency to the source.

Cheers...
Duy-Khang Hoang

los seres

12-07-06, 08:45 PM

Some Panasonic BD Numbers (http://www.videobusiness.com/article/CA6398266.html)

Panasonic officials did not discuss shipment figures for its Blu-ray player, which launched in September. But sources believe the company will have shipped between 30,000 and 40,000 units worldwide by March.

For now, the company seems content keeping its $1,299-priced Blu-ray player displayed at such specialty outlets as Magnolia, Tweeter and Ultimate Electronics.

“The set-top box is an expensive proposition,” said Tsuyuzaki. “It’s different from the [$499 to $599] PlayStation 3 product.

mikemorel

12-07-06, 09:00 PM

I don't think blu-ray's much larger studio support will change in November.The studios?? That's the least of Sony's problems!

1. They bet the farm that they could produce BD in volume. They can't, at least not in the next 6 months. They knew for over a year that blue laser diodes were difficult to make. Amir knew it. Hell, a guy that got banned from this board knew it in early Spring. So Sony had to have been stockpiling them for the last 6 months. And that's all they could come up with was 197,000 at launch?? Not 2 million (4 million by end of 2006, remember?).

2. Remember that report from July (http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/biz/archives/2006/07/20/2003319649) that said Asustek started to build PS3s in July? It was later denied. IMO it was a real report - it took from July to November to produce 197,000 consoles.

3. So they have this tremenous supply problem, which in turn affects their whole supply chain. They can't get too far ahead with all the other parts and pieces, because they build up too much inventory which costs lots of money. Therefore they can't start to realize economies of scale and efficiencies in manufacturing those parts. So they can't lower costs very fast.. and therefore lower prices.

4. Meanwhile MS will kick out more than a million consoles in December (no easy feat at $400). At the same time MS is lowering costs (http://biz.gamedaily.com/industry/feature/?id=13351), and switching to a 65 nanometer CPU (http://www.soccentral.com/results.asp?CategoryID=552&entryID=18781) . The minute Sony finally starts to get over the diode problems (March?, June?), MS lowers prices. So here we have $200 and $300 XBoxes (and perhaps a $400 HD-DVD model) competing with $500 and $600 PS3s, except the XBoxes have lots more games, and Halo. Sony can't lower prices because they only have say, two million consoles out there and are hemorrhaging cash. And they need astronomical attach rates to ever break even at the prices they are charging now. Problem is they can't prove the PS3 is better than the XBox. More developers defect to the XBox side of the fence. PS3 gets the ports.

---------------
Granted that MS/Toshiba must have some diode problems as well, even though a recent EETimes article (http://www.eetimes.com/issue/fp/showArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=S2251CFRCSAQMQSNDLOSKH0CJUNN2JV N?articleID=194400941&_requestid=749376&_requestid=1353154) quoted Shinichi Ito, senior manger of the digital A/V division of Toshiba, who said the company has had no laser diode supply problems.

But to cripple the Playstation line, the crown jewel of Sony, in both price and supply, vs. XBox (and Nintendo) seems crazy to me. Maybe Sony can prove me wrong...

nataraj

12-07-06, 09:09 PM

Phew - OK , time for some NEWS :)

Check this one out - "Optical HD Battle May Be Over: HD DVD Wins"

http://news.digitaltrends.com/talkback158.html

They even mention the HD NOW petition campaign :D

Two interesting points.

Finally, HP who had been a big Blu-Ray supporter and dominates the Media Center PC market, introduced a $100 HD DVD upgrade for their PCs (Sony’s Blu-Ray VIAO solution was just dropped to $749). The impact of this last move is still too early to measure but there is no comparably priced (not even close) solution using Blu-Ray.

This shows the kind of prices HD DVD drives sell at in quantities. This is the reason 360 HD DVD addon doesn't lose any money.

This shows the kind of pressure the 360 add-on and the inexpensive drive can put on BD. The effect of PC drives can't be overlooked. See this statistic about DVD ...

1997
- Over 500,000 DVD-Video players shipped worldwide.
- Around 330,000 DVD-ROM drives shipped worldwide with about 1 million bundled DVD-ROM titles.

The above is from http://www.dvd-software.info/dvd-faq/19.php .

Note that both projections are aggressive but Sony was supposed to originally ship 2M PS3s into the market during the 4th quarter and actual numbers (given they had under 200K at launch) may be closer to 400K. And with a recall possible there is a chance they might not even make that.

Hmmm ... I've not been keeping up with the news on PS3. Why would there be a recall ? Afterall they are not using Sony Batteries, are they ? ;)

nataraj

12-07-06, 09:16 PM

mikey p

12-07-06, 09:24 PM

Is the cat about to come out of the bag? The truth is out there.......

smithfarmer

12-07-06, 10:13 PM

back and forth back and forth...
Why not just say they'll have 40 million or billion then switch it back down to 8 million :p
Because they're not like Sony.

nataraj

12-07-06, 10:14 PM

Is the cat about to come out of the bag? The truth is out there.......

Which cat ... what bag ?

2Channel

12-07-06, 10:35 PM

Is the cat about to come out of the bag? The truth is out there.......

Don't tease us mikey, give us a little more.

BenDover

12-07-06, 10:51 PM

...

I'm sorry, but who are you again? I have no idea what TheLion does for a living, but his posts show quite clearly that he knows what he's talking about. At least Amir shows him much more respect than you do, agrees with him on quite a few technical points and is very careful in critizising others (see above). Remember, attack the post, not the poster. So if you have a good explanation for the artifacts lots of users are describing in the other thread I would very much like to hear it.

FWIW this is only a format issue insofar as BD potentially has more space and higher bandwith. If the same transfer is used (by a neutral studio), obviously the artifacts will be the same.

easy there big fella, I didn't say i was anyone; I didn't say that what I said should be quoted as conclusive/dispositive on any issue...

YOU however have proclaimed that THE LION has spoken and based on what HE said we all now KNOW something...

THAT is what I pointed out so i indeed attacked the post and not the poster.

so if you want to hold him out as your EXPERT you'll have to provide me with his identity and credentials...

now isn't that simple ;)

2Channel

12-07-06, 10:52 PM

......Granted that MS/Toshiba must have some diode problems as well, even though a recent EETimes article (http://www.eetimes.com/issue/fp/showArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=S2251CFRCSAQMQSNDLOSKH0CJUNN2JV N?articleID=194400941&_requestid=749376&_requestid=1353154) quoted Shinichi Ito, senior manger of the digital A/V division of Toshiba, who said the company has had no laser diode supply problems.

But to cripple the Playstation line, the crown jewel of Sony, in both price and supply, vs. XBox (and Nintendo) seems crazy to me. Maybe Sony can prove me wrong...

It's one thing to get your hands on 300,000 blue lasers in 2006 (Toshiba's projection for HD-DVD devices that will be sold this year). It's an entirely different issue to get your hands on 2 Million blue lasers in 2006 (Sony's goal for PS3 this year).

The whole PS3 strategy was predicated on the assumption that they would be able to make millions of blue lasers for PS3 this year. They're almost at 400,000 globally (US and Japan) which is impressive from a blue laser quantity perspective but dismal from a trojan horse strategy perspective.

Sony's blue laser supply will have to increase dramatically for the March 07 EU launch to happen. I expect Sony to push the date back. If you were fighting off Microsoft in the US and Nintendo in Japan, would you further stretch your supplies to open up the EU market?

smithfarmer

12-07-06, 10:55 PM

Originally Posted by Grubert
Disclosure:

Rob Enderle is President of the Promar Group, one of whose major clients is Toshiba.

http://www.promar.com/RobEnderle.html
http://www.promar.com/clients.htm

Thanks for digging that up. Amazing how all of these "pundits" always end up having a client list.... ;) b2b

Nice to see your favorite company was one of his clients. ;)
For over 20 years Rob has worked for and with companies like Microsoft, HP, IBM, Dell, Toshiba, Gateway, Sony, USAA, Texas Instruments, AMD, Intel, Credit Suisse First Boston, GM, Ford, ROLM, and Siemens.

It must be pretty tough for you to see the #1 ranked "pundit" proclaiming Sony killed Blu Ray.
Rob has been ranked #1 since 1995 in press coverage world wide and been captured by the Wall Street Journal, Boston Globe, CNN, CNBC, the AP, Reuters, Bloomberg, New York Times, LA Times, Mercury News, MSNBC, NPR, and other services and papers world wide. He writes a regular column for Internet Week and co-hosted CNET radio. He has appeared on special segments for United Airlines, Silicon Valley this Week, Computer Currents, and Tech TV.

Granted, I have no proof of the veracity of this claimed #1 ranking but this is the uphill battle being faced by Blu Ray. "Pundits" views like this are prevailing and being carried by the mass media everywhere you look. It's all about the "favorable mindshare" and so far Blu Ray is not capturing it the way you've hoped for. ;)

mikemorel

12-07-06, 10:56 PM

Maybe Mikey's talking about tomorrow morning's CED, which has a LOT to say about dual format players, including the CEO of a certain insider's firm who does not think they are a good idea (I guess if I were him I would say the same thing).

Anyways, 3 CE firms and 4 chip suppliers are chasing dual format. I'd say more but it's time for bed. zzzz

On the way out, he're some more comments by Dick Parsons, Time Warner CEO.

Separately, Time Warner CEO Richard Parsons downplayed PS3's role in hastening Blu-ray adoption. “I don’t think” PS3 will “drive the conversion” because “people get those things to play games -- they don’t really get them to
watch movies,” he told the Credit Suisse Media & Telecom Week Conference in N.Y. Tues. What will spur Blu-ray and HD DVD adoption is the flat-panel HDTV, he said. As such sets get more “consumer acceptance... there’s going to be more and more demand” for HD content, he told the conference. There is “nothing to say” the Blu-ray/HD DVD format war ever will be resolved, he added, noting that multiple videogame platforms survive side-by-side. What could help is that “hybrid” devices being made by some CE companies, he said; they can play Blu-ray and HD DVD discs.

The format war is “unfortunate almost by definition because it creates confusion in the minds of consumers,” Parsons said: “It doesn’t allow a big group to line up behind either one of those formats to begin to drive the costs down, so these platforms are going to be out of the reach of the mass market.” He singled out PS3's high price tag. But Time Warner is “positioned to take advantage of what uptick there is [on] the new devices,” thanks to supporting both formats, he said. Xbox 360 supports HD DVD but only with a separate HD DVD player.

b2bonez

12-07-06, 11:27 PM

Two interesting points.
This shows the kind of prices HD DVD drives sell at in quantities. This is the reason 360 HD DVD addon doesn't lose any money.

The $99 HD-DVD drive was a one day special.. The price is now $249.00...

HD DVD-ROM for high definition movies
In order to deliver maximum high-def entertainment, this option requires the 256MB NVIDIA GeForce 7600GT graphics card option.

+$249.99
The addon also has something like 192MB of memory to support all of the memory functions required for playing movies. There in more in the box than just a drive.

b2b

b2bonez

12-07-06, 11:33 PM

Nice to see your favorite company was one of his clients. ;)
For over 20 years Rob has worked for and with companies like Microsoft, HP, IBM, Dell, Toshiba, Gateway, Sony, USAA, Texas Instruments, AMD, Intel, Credit Suisse First Boston, GM, Ford, ROLM, and Siemens.

I wonder when in that 20 year period he worked for or had Sony as a client ?? Almost none of those names show up under the "current" client list (except Toshiba).

http://www.promar.com/clients.htm

b2b

BlackRiderX

12-07-06, 11:37 PM

But Time Warner is “positioned to take advantage of what uptick there is [on] the new devices,” thanks to supporting both formats, he said. [/I]

I have to believe that statement is finally proof that the format neutrality stance of all Time Warner studios (WB, NL, HBO) is a company wide, either "agreed-on" or "ordered" policy.

smithfarmer

12-08-06, 12:11 AM

I would venture to guess that > 90% of the 500,000 people who buy a PS3 with the included BD movie disc will choose to pop it into the drive and watch the movie. What their BD movie buying/renting habits from that point on is a something that is beyond my estimation (there are no precedents for this kind of product feature).
Would you care to venture a guess on the # of people who'll see no difference between BD discs and their regular SD DVD's because their PS3's aren't even connected to HDTV's?

rdjam

12-08-06, 01:10 AM

Looks like Jennifer over at Video Business is taking up the cause...

HD DVD petition backers take on PS3 (http://www.videobusiness.com/blog/1730000173/post/270005827.html)
Heh - We are up over 3,000 unique signatories tonight.

But we are experiencing a little DENIAL OF SERVICE ATTACK, at the moment.

Gee, I wonder who would want to do that? Someone must be feeling threatened :p

b2bonez

12-08-06, 01:22 AM

Heh - We are up over 3,000 unique signatories tonight.

But we are experiencing a little DENIAL OF SERVICE ATTACK, at the moment.

Gee, I wonder who would want to do that? Someone must be feeling threatened :p

Oops.. better get your tin-foil hat ready... :)

b2b

rdjam

12-08-06, 01:26 AM

Is the cat about to come out of the bag? The truth is out there.......
Hey MIKEY - Long time no see! ;)

rdjam

12-08-06, 01:31 AM

Maybe Mikey's talking about tomorrow morning's CED, which has a LOT to say about dual format players, including the CEO of a certain insider's firm who does not think they are a good idea (I guess if I were him I would say the same thing).
Let me guess - the one that DIDN'T develop a dual-format chipset?? :)

2 syllables, 5 letters, begins with... That one?

Eternal_Sunshine

12-08-06, 02:34 AM

easy there big fella, I didn't say i was anyone; I didn't say that what I said should be quoted as conclusive/dispositive on any issue...

YOU however have proclaimed that THE LION has spoken and based on what HE said we all now KNOW something...

THAT is what I pointed out so i indeed attacked the post and not the poster.

so if you want to hold him out as your EXPERT you'll have to provide me with his identity and credentials...

now isn't that simple ;)

Strangely you don't demand to know "identity and credentials" of folks that post stuff you like to hear...

All I said is that what he posted made sense to me. You – and all the other very vocal HD DVD fans – still didn't react to that very simple and logical theory that it may actually take a lot of effort and hand-tuning by the compressionists to make movies look great at typical HD DVD bitrates and that this may be the reason that less prestigious titles that don't get the "royal treatment" show those artifacts Alan Gouger and a lot of others have pointed out in the other thread. And those folks are not BD supporters eager to find some fault with HD DVD, those are folks who bought into HD DVD and realize that the PQ is becoming very hit and miss.

So who cares who TheLion is? Please tell me why his theory doesn't make sense to you and your alternative explanation of those visible artifacts.

aaaaa0

12-08-06, 02:34 AM

The addon also has something like 192MB of memory to support all of the memory functions required for playing movies. There in more in the box than just a drive.

192 MB of Flash.

How much, exactly, does a 256 MB flash card cost nowadays?

b2bonez

12-08-06, 02:50 AM

192 MB of Flash.

How much, exactly, does a 256 MB flash card cost nowadays?

Don't have a clue. I haven't fooled with PC stuff for years..

b2b

namechamps

12-08-06, 04:07 AM

192 MB of Flash.

How much, exactly, does a 256 MB flash card cost nowadays?

Flash Memory is bulk is around $12/GB. So I would say about $3-$5.

Grubert

12-08-06, 05:48 AM

CD Freaks presents the LG GBW-H10N 4x Blu-ray drive review (http://www.cdfreaks.com/news/CD-Freaks-presents-the-LG-GBW-H10N-4x-Blu-ray-drive-review.html)

scaesare

12-08-06, 09:52 AM

Nope.. don't think so.. Besides your sig is perfect as is. I wouldn't change a thing... ;)

b2b

OK, if you win I'll let you change RDJam's sig. ;)

scaesare

12-08-06, 10:02 AM

It's a small pie - the PS3 sold 197k units in the month of November. (http://biz.gamedaily.com/industry/feature/?id=14685) Apparently that's all the diodes they could muster. I don't expect December will be much better, do you?

Wow.

And didn't the PS3 come out on 11/17? And the number that was actually avaialable in the initial batch was 400k, right? So perhaps 200K US and 200K internationally?

Assuming even distribution would be obvioulsy wrong, but I wonder how many of those were avaialble day 1? A quarter of that? A third?

Assuming a 3rd both here and internationally, that would be ~120K to 130K in lauch day?

Are those plausible #'s for the first day sales?

b2bonez

12-08-06, 10:18 AM

Michael Mullis

12-08-06, 10:31 AM

Add the two Sony models up (PS2 + PS3) and you get 861k vs. 511k for Xbox...

You have got to be kidding me. You are not even going to try and add a $99-$129 console (depends where you get it) to the sales total and use that as "perspective" are you, really????

efralope

12-08-06, 10:33 AM

Wow.

And didn't the PS3 come out on 11/17? And the number that was actually avaialable in the initial batch was 400k, right? So perhaps 200K US and 200K internationally?

Assuming even distribution would be obvioulsy wrong, but I wonder how many of those were avaialble day 1? A quarter of that? A third?

Assuming a 3rd both here and internationally, that would be ~120K to 130K in lauch day?

Are those plausible #'s for the first day sales?
Sony's "goal" was 100,000 launch for Japan and 400,000 for North America. They hit about 80% of that target in Japan. In the US, they shipped about 200,000 the first few days of release (not counting Canada), so I'd say somewhere in the 125,000-175,000 range was pretty accurate.

It's so weird how Sony handled this.

Spring launch -> World Wide Fall launch (4 million before Jan. 1st) -> NA/Japan launch with 500,000 units day 1 -> missing their targets almost by 1/2 (less than 250,000 on day one for both territories)

More mystifying is the assurances up until the last second for each delay. Europe was supposed to get the first PS3s. And several weeks ago the 400,000 number was still thrown around. Wasn't there at least some sense that maybe things weren't going as planned?

Totally bizarre that it would be that bad. XBox 360 was a joke, but they had a global launch (similar too Wii).

Now, I'm not sure what to make of the 6 million figure before the end of March. On the one hand, Blu-ray studios are counting on it, and you figure Sony isn't going to risk p*ssing them off?

b2bonez

12-08-06, 10:37 AM

You have got to be kidding me. You are not even going to try and add a $99-$129 console (depends where you get it) to the sales total and use that as "perspective" are you, really????

So what's the title of the article ???
Breaking: November Game Industry Sales Skyrocket 34%

If you look at the total sales for all companies (all products) MS is just a distant third with a single product.

b2b

Kolgar

12-08-06, 10:47 AM

You have got to be kidding me. You are not even going to try and add a $99-$129 console (depends where you get it) to the sales total and use that as "perspective" are you, really????

This is precisely why I use the Ignore function. Such garbage severely erodes the integrity of any discussion.

Maybe I'd be better off checking out until the format war has been decided. Wake me when it's over. ;)

Grubert

12-08-06, 10:50 AM

It seems I had missed another BD writer review on CD Freaks:

Lite-On LH-2B1S Blu-Ray Disc Triple Writer Review (http://www.cdfreaks.com/reviews/Lite-On-LH-2B1S-Blu-Ray-Disc-Triple-Writer-Review/Introduction.html)

Kosty

12-08-06, 11:12 AM

*sigh*

Another day, other logical fallacy.

I wonder when in that 20 year period he worked for or had Sony as a client ?? Almost none of those names show up under the "current" client list (except Toshiba).

http://www.promar.com/clients.htm

b2b What exactly about his argument do you disagree with? I'll take into consideration that he's worked as a consultant for Toshiba and other CE companies. The fact that he's respected enough to get premium companies including Sony, to pay his disqualifies his argument?

*sigh*

Another day, other logical fallacy.

An ad hominem fallacy consists of asserting that someone's argument is wrong and/or he is wrong to argue at all purely because of something discreditable/not-authoritative about the person or those persons cited by him rather than addressing the soundness of the argument itself. The implication is that the person's argument and/or ability to argue correctly lacks authority.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

Maybe if you look at his experience, you might decide that he had a clue?

Somehow I believe you were singing his praises last year, when he wrote pro Blu-ray?
http://www.promar.com/RobEnderle.html

Grubert

12-08-06, 11:20 AM

*sigh*

Another day, other logical fallacy.

What exactly about his argument do you disagree with? I'll take into consideration that he's worked as a consultant for Toshiba and other CE companies. The fact that he's respected enough to get premium companies including Sony, to pay his disqualifies his argument?

He had worked for Sony. He is working for Toshiba.

*sigh*

Another day, other logical fallacy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

Questioning the credibility of an opinion piece because its author has a vested interest is not ad hominem.

Kosty

12-08-06, 11:20 AM

briankmonkey

12-08-06, 11:22 AM

Is it just me or has their been virtually no positive Blu-ray or PS3 news out for the month of November of December by anyone except official Sony or Blu-ray association spokespeople.

There appears to be a mainstream news bandwagon effect going on here with the conventional wisdom criticizing Blu-ray. Not sure if its fair or not, but the vast majority of articles written recently seem to be critical of Blu-ray.

Blu-ray strength is its appearance of inevitability (studio support, CE support), if that firewall breaks open, what happens?

Sounds like you have selective reading my friend or are just forgetfull(I say this based on your posting history as I've seen you post in topics with positive Blu-ray or PS3 news). I'm not saying it is just you as there are plenty of other people who turn a blind eye to positive news, but it certainly isn't everybody ;)

sknight1

12-08-06, 11:23 AM

A nice summary of units sold and financials for all three game consoles - Bloomberg Report (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aRbhBQjT1Bxs&refer=home)

b2bonez

12-08-06, 11:23 AM

*sigh*

Maybe if you look at his experience, you might decide that he had a clue?

Somehow I believe you were singing his praises last year, when he wrote pro Blu-ray?
http://www.promar.com/RobEnderle.html

How about we look at his current affiliation with Toshiba ??
Member, Industry Advisory Council
Toshiba US
Irvine, CA

b2b

briankmonkey

12-08-06, 11:27 AM

He had worked for Sony. He is working for Toshiba.

Questioning the credibility of an opinion piece because its author has a vested interest is not ad hominem.

:p

b2bonez

12-08-06, 11:29 AM

briankmonkey

12-08-06, 11:29 AM

How about we look at his current affiliation with Toshiba ??

b2b

What if there was a certain Microsoft exec that used to work for Sony, should we take him/her as the end all be all source on Sony?

dialog_gvf

12-08-06, 11:40 AM

Is it just me or has their been virtually no positive Blu-ray or PS3 news out for the month of November of December by anyone except official Sony or Blu-ray association spokespeople.

How about the PS/3 being a darn good BD player? How about the release of the Sony player? How about all the positive movie reviews?

Todays thedvdwars.com numbers:

HD DVD: 961.3
Blu-ray: 2118.7 (all time high is ~1920)

I believe that's the closest the two formats have been since late September (including Nov. 17).

If someone doesn't care about or like BD, it's not surprising they won't see the positives.

When exactly did all this stop being about HD movie discs and players?

Gary

wco81

12-08-06, 11:44 AM

Kotsy will never notice positive BR or PS3 news.

briankmonkey

12-08-06, 11:45 AM

How about the PS/3 being a darn good BD player? How about the release of the Sony player? How about all the positive movie reviews?

Todays thedvdwars.com numbers:

HD DVD: 961.3
Blu-ray: 2118.7 (all time high is ~1920)

I believe that's the closest the two formats have been since late September (including Nov. 17).

If someone doesn't care about or like BD, it's not surprising they won't see the positives.

When exactly did all this stop being about HD movie discs and players?

Gary

Wouldn't it save certain members a lot of time if they just put:

"blurray is teh debil, HD-DVD is angelic.. Why? because I said so it must be true"

in their signatures instead typing the same BS over and over again in every topic they enter?

Michael Mullis

12-08-06, 11:53 AM

Hmm.. so HD-DVD is winning the propaganda "war".. ??

It seems to be. You don't even own a Blu-ray player.

BenDover

12-08-06, 12:11 PM

PS3 remote gets reviewed...

http://www.engadget.com/2006/12/08/sonys-bd-remote-control-for-ps3-reviewed/

rover2002

12-08-06, 12:15 PM

Don't the Harmony remotes work with the PS3?

2Channel

12-08-06, 12:22 PM

This is precisely why I use the Ignore function. Such garbage severely erodes the integrity of any discussion.

Maybe I'd be better off checking out until the format war has been decided. Wake me when it's over. ;)

I believe it was the original post that Mike responded to that was meaningless to the HD format debate. Sales of a 6 year old console have little relevance, unless you're trying to make the point that these are potential PS3 upgrades 3 years from now. But by that time all of this will be long over.......or will it? ;)

b2bonez

12-08-06, 12:33 PM

It seems to be. You don't even own a Blu-ray player.

If the propaganda worked as well as you thought, then there would be more companies building HD-DVD players... but the reality is only one company is (Toshiba) ;)

Time for a recap...

Toshiba takes 6 months to build and ship 70,000 slow, buggy prototype players and they are given credit for being visionary genuses in the CE world.

Sony builds and delivers (in two weeks) 197,000 cutting edge technology PS3s that not only play games but are very excellent BD movie players and they are bashed at every opportunity for failing so badly that their only option is to give up, pack their bags and go home (according to Robbie) :rolleyes:

Oh yes... the propaganda for HD-DVD is rolling "full steam ahead". Too bad their product production isn't as effective as their jaw flapping... ;)

b2b

briankmonkey

12-08-06, 12:40 PM

PS3 remote gets reviewed...

http://www.engadget.com/2006/12/08/sonys-bd-remote-control-for-ps3-reviewed/

Thanks. Honestly I'm very happy with using the wireless controller. It does an excellent job, not clunky at all like using the PS2 controller with DVD's, the exact opposite really. Of course the SIXAXIS is shaped like a controller and that is a turn-off for some ;)

crussader

12-08-06, 12:43 PM

Don't the Harmony remotes work with the PS3?

No. The PS3 requires blue tooth for its remote operations.

BenDover

12-08-06, 12:57 PM

Thanks. Honestly I'm very happy with using the wireless controller. It does an excellent job, not clunky at all like using the PS2 controller with DVD's, the exact opposite really. Of course the SIXAXIS is shaped like a controller and that is a turn-off for some ;)

yeah, my wife would never go for using a game controller :D one instance where no matter what i say or do, i would outright lose :)

wco81

12-08-06, 01:02 PM

BenDover

12-08-06, 01:06 PM

Maybe Logitech can make a USB dongle IR sensor to work with their remotes.

I've held off on pulling the trigger for the Harmony 880 though. Screen looks nice but the layout seems inferior to the layout on the Tivo and the HR20 remotes.

OT: i've got the 880 and absolutely love it...love all the harmony remotes i own (three different models...but the 880 is my fave atm). i was planning on trying the upcoming (don't think it is in stores yet) 1000 model (touchscreen; different form factor) but am starting to reconsider.

anyhow, a dongle (isn't that a pejorative term around here?;)) would be a nice way to convert an IR remote into an RF-based remote!

UxiSXRD

12-08-06, 01:29 PM

RF is the big feature of the 890 IIRC (for a $100 premium). It wouldn't surprise me if they came out with a 895 or something that had bluetooth...

The remote for the BDP-S1 is sure snazzy. I like the blue wheel thing. Too bad neither of these are backlit, though.

dialog_gvf

12-08-06, 01:37 PM

yeah, my wife would never go for using a game controller :D one instance where no matter what i say or do, i would outright lose :)

Once you get used to it, it works fairly well. I'll get the remote, but I really don't need it.

Gary

scaesare

12-08-06, 01:39 PM

A bit of perspective from the same article...

Add the two Sony models up (PS2 + PS3) and you get 861k vs. 511k for Xbox...

b2b

Uh, ok?

Interesting answer to my question: Are these #'s plausible?

BenDover

12-08-06, 01:40 PM

Once you get used to it, it works fairly well. I'll get the remote, but I really don't need it.

Gary

nothing to do with me, i'm fine with using anything with buttons :D

it is my wife that wouldn't go for it, no matter what...she's weird like that ;)

Michael Mullis

12-08-06, 01:49 PM

b2b, I am sorry my friend. Until you have decided to stop talking from the sidelines and actually jump into this format war with a player, it's just really hard for me to give any weight to what you're saying.

And BTW, in case you haven't read, the A2's are out now so those numbers will begin to rise once again for the HD DVD side. And of course you have the 360 add-on. And you can spin the massive downgrade of PS3 shipments all you want, but it does matter.

But anyway, start putting your money where your mouth is, and I'll start putting stock in your postings.

Thanks. Honestly I'm very happy with using the wireless controller. It does an excellent job, not clunky at all like using the PS2 controller with DVD's, the exact opposite really. Of course the SIXAXIS is shaped like a controller and that is a turn-off for some

I'm in the same boat as BenDover. There is no way my wife uses the Xbox 360 controller to run the HD DVD player. And she uses the player every night to put on DVD's for my 2 year old son before bedtime.

She's quite happy with the Logitech 360 remote though, and the 660 we used before that.

I believe it was the original post that Mike responded to that was meaningless to the HD format debate. Sales of a 6 year old console have little relevance

That was exactly my point.

wco81

12-08-06, 01:51 PM

anyhow, a dongle (isn't that a pejorative term around here?;)) would be a nice way to convert an IR remote into an RF-based remote!

Specifically, it's the BIG UGLY DONGLES (like the X360 power brick and the HD-DVD Add-On and its own power brick) which are an affront to engineering and general esthetics. :p

An IR sensor could attach directly to the USB port without any cables and not take up much space.

But as UniSXRD noted, Harmony/Logitech makes a relay transmitter which converts RF to IR which doesn't attach at all to anything. So it's technically not a dongle. ;)

Still, I wouldn't pay $100 premium for a RF/IR to Bluetooth relay transmitter either. One thing nice though is that if it's RF to Bluetooth, you wouldn't need line of sight at all so you can stow it away somewhere and forget about it, pretend it doesn't exist. :cool:

Kosty

12-08-06, 02:04 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kosty
Is it just me or has their been virtually no positive Blu-ray or PS3 news out for the month of November of December by anyone except official Sony or Blu-ray association spokespeople. Sounds like you have selective reading my friend or are just forgetfull(I say this based on your posting history as I've seen you post in topics with positive Blu-ray or PS3 news). I'm not saying it is just you as there are plenty of other people who turn a blind eye to positive news, but it certainly isn't everybody How about the PS/3 being a darn good BD player? How about the release of the Sony player? How about all the positive movie reviews?

Todays thedvdwars.com numbers:

HD DVD: 961.3
Blu-ray: 2118.7 (all time high is ~1920)

I believe that's the closest the two formats have been since late September (including Nov. 17).

If someone doesn't care about or like BD, it's not surprising they won't see the positives.

When exactly did all this stop being about HD movie discs and players?

Gary Hmm.. so HD-DVD is winning the propaganda "war".. ?? Well I do think it was a case of selective memory, but maybe that was my observation of the recent coverage and the point I was trying to make. BTW I do care about Blu-ray because I care about HD quality and I think Sony will not let Blu-ray die, so it will be around in one form or another for years, and I want it the best it can be.

There are some positive trends going for Blu-ray sales, in the Amazon stats, (the number of titles over 10,000 rank) and (the average top 10 ranking) as well as the detailed positive reviews on the power and elegance of the PS3 itself as well as the other new standalone players and quality and quantity of the new Blu-ray titles. Those are good things about Blu-ray, that I indeed have observed and commented upon.

But all that good stuff is seemingly being drowned out by media and analyst reports and reports of management changes and shipping numbers etc that seem to be a steady drip drip drip downbeat in the coverage of Blu-ray and a steady sunny spin to Xbox 360 and HD DVD issues.

Its like mainstream political reporters that usually bash one political party starting to sing the praises of the other side in subtle ways. The shift is noticable, and it seems that they all are starting to swim in the same direction by a pack mentality or they or their sources know something they are not telling us.

I know there has been a lot of positive Blu-ray developments, I'm just starting to see a noticable downward trend in the negative coverage of Blu-ray ever since the PS3 launch.

It's almost like those writers are kinda irritated that their high expectations weren't met.

Besides the positive snippets of press releases, can someone really show me a article written in the past couple weeks saying Blu-ray is going to win the format war? I can think of several in that time period now, of authors previously forecasting a Blu-ray win, that say HD DVD now has the advantage because of the Xbox 360 HD DVD player bundle. But none the other way.

I try to be balanced on these things, its just my observation, point out why I'm wrong. Maybe I'm just irritated because its cold outside and I can't get my mitts on a PS3 myself. ;)

UxiSXRD

12-08-06, 02:24 PM

Oh just admit you're a blatant HD-DVD partisan (though not as bad as rdjam). :)

Seriously though, I was intending to wait until March or April for the PS3 like I did for the 360 this last year but I am growing increasingly excited. Had a couple near misses where I was just a few people behind to get one and now I am quite eager for one. I've even already purchased a couple Blu-ray movies for it. News definitely looks good on PS3 from my perspective: far better Blu-ray player than i was expecting and I'm sure it will look handsome next to the 360 on my rack (though I wish they'd come out with a silver one already!).

darinp2

12-08-06, 02:26 PM

What exactly about his argument do you disagree with?I know you were asking somebody else, but from my standpoint, I don't know if he has any financial reasons for his opinions, but think that some of the stuff he wrote makes it look like he understands the subject matter less than a lot of people around here. Maybe even less than the average around here. I bet other people around here understand that the HD DVD camp is unlikely to be able to get 2 million working blue laser diodes into drives and sold this year, as Sony's issues with getting enough blue laser diodes are not just their issues, but industry issues for anybody wanting to build a ton of devices that use them in a very short time. His comments about if Microsoft can get a 20% attach rate then they could have nearly 4x the number of players in consumers hands as Sony with their 600,000 PS3s by the end of the year really don't make him look very knowledgable.

His math is also fairly suspect given that a 20% attach rate on 10 million units is 2 million and 2 million divided by 600,000 is 3.33. When a person puts forth numbers that come out to 3.33 and claims them as "nearly 4x" a red flag goes up for me. If he had arrived at nearly 4x the way that 2Channel did then I would have had a lot more respect for his knowledge on this subject matter. But with what he wrote, I wouldn't rely very heavily on what he says. I understand that doesn't mean that others won't rely on him though. It isn't uncommon for writers who are relied upon by many to actually be pretty lacking in their knowledge about the subject matter they are writing about.

I do think that it looks like there is currently a kind of pack mentality in the press against the PS3 and Blu-ray, just in the last week or two. I'm sure some of it is justified.

--Darin

briankmonkey

12-08-06, 02:35 PM

hongcho

12-08-06, 02:46 PM

Add the two Sony models up (PS2 + PS3) and you get 861k vs. 511k for Xbox...

Another (interesting at least to me) way to view this with the dollar numbers. The prices are based on Amazon.com at some time on Dec. 7...

360 511.3K @ $400 = $205M
PS2 664K @ $130 = $86M
PS3 196.6K @ $600 = $118M
Wii 476K @ $250 = $119M

DS 918K @ $130 = $119M
GBA 641K @ $80 = $51M
PSP 411.9K @ $200 = $82M

Hong.

b2bonez

12-08-06, 03:31 PM

b2b, I am sorry my friend. Until you have decided to stop talking from the sidelines and actually jump into this format war with a player, it's just really hard for me to give any weight to what you're saying.

And BTW, in case you haven't read, the A2's are out now so those numbers will begin to rise once again for the HD DVD side. And of course you have the 360 add-on. And you can spin the massive downgrade of PS3 shipments all you want, but it does matter.

But anyway, start putting your money where your mouth is, and I'll start putting stock in your postings.

Chances of me putting money on a product...

1. HD-A1 (and its clones)... ZERO.. Buggy, slow 1G product that people will replace as soon as they can (there are already lots of folks in the HD-DVD player forum talking about doing this now that the A2 is out). Glad that I passed.. ;)

2. HD-A2... 10%.. Only if all of the bugs (skipping etc.) are fixed and if Universal clings to exclusive HD-DVD support.

3. Xbox addon... ZERO.. Don't own a Xbox and never intend to. HD-DVD addon makes for a clumsy contraption with a bunch of wires to connect up. I hate wires. No HDMI support.

4. Any of the many BD players that seem to work OK, but are 1G products too.... 20%

5. PS3... 90%... Does an excellent job of BD playback. Needs a bit more time (after all the units are put into service to see if any big bugs pop up). Same price as the A2 ($499) which makes it pretty much a "no brainer" compared to HD-DVD.

And last but not least... Where are the movies ??? Some nice re-runs, but big bucks for stuff on cable channels don't cut it... HD or not.. :confused:

b2b

orogogus

12-08-06, 03:43 PM

Kolgar

12-08-06, 04:02 PM

What will PS3's affect be on all of this? I think my marketing heroes Al Ries and Jack Trout would have this to say:

PS3 will not have a significant effect on the success or failure of Blu-ray. In fact, it will find only middling success in both of the markets it is trying to straddle, games and movies. Why? Because of a concept called positioning. The word "PlayStation" means one thing: video games. Not HD movies. And there is little Sony can do to change that fact.

The idea is already in people's minds, a brand message 10 years in the making: PlayStation is a box for video games. A toy. Albeit an expensive toy this time, which is likely to put off existing PS fans and delay the console's penetration into the mass market.

If PlayStation 3 must struggle to win in its own category (and there are good reasons to suspect this will happen), how can it be expected to also fight and win a war in a different category?

Now, surely there will be an uptick in BD sales due to PS3. But will it be significant? Will it be sustained? Perhaps it will come fast enough and be large enough to jar a trigger-happy studio into defection, thus ending the war. But that is unknowable right now.

What is not unknowable is that, long term, the fate of BD lies with standalone players. It is the mass market that will decide this war, and the mass market will not buy a video game console to do an HD movie player's job. Even if the game console is also an excellent HD movie player. These decisions are not rational. Purchases like this, of entertainment products with relatively high price tags, are driven more by emotion than intellect. And emotionally, Average Jenny just will not be able to let her Average Joe husband buy a game machine to watch HD movies.

At least, that's what I think they'd say. Al? Jack? Are you out there? I could use your help in figuring this all out. :p

edited for clarity and edited again because I can't write today

BenDover

12-08-06, 04:10 PM

Chances of me putting money on a product...

1. HD-A1 (and its clones)... ZERO.. Buggy, slow 1G product that people will replace as soon as they can (there are already lots of folks in the HD-DVD player forum talking about doing this now that the A2 is out). Glad that I passed.. ;)

2. HD-A2... 10%.. Only if all of the bugs (skipping etc.) are fixed and if Universal clings to exclusive HD-DVD support.

3. Xbox addon... ZERO.. Don't own a Xbox and never intend to. HD-DVD addon makes for a clumsy contraption with a bunch of wires to connect up. I hate wires. No HDMI support.

4. Any of the many BD players that seem to work OK, but are 1G products too.... 20%

5. PS3... 90%... Does an excellent job of BD playback. Needs a bit more time (after all the units are put into service to see if any big bugs pop up). Same price as the A2 ($499) which makes it pretty much a "no brainer" compared to HD-DVD.

And last but not least... Where are the movies ??? Some nice re-runs, but big bucks for stuff on cable channels don't cut it... HD or not.. :confused:

b2b

too funny...i mean i wouldn't expect any different from a bd supporter/evangelist, but it is still funny to see you post that the hd dvd players must be perfect but the bd players may be forgiven of all their sins ;)

BenDover

12-08-06, 04:11 PM

What will PS3's affect be on all of this? I think my marketing heroes Al Ries and Jack Trout would have this to say:

PS3 will not have a significant effect on the success or failure of Blu-ray. In fact, it will find only middling success in both of the markets it is trying to straddle, games and movies. Why? Because of a concept called positioning. The word "PlayStation" means one thing: video games. Not HD movies. And there is little Sony can do to change that fact.

The idea is already in people's minds, a brand message 10 years in the making: PlayStation is a box for video games. A toy. Albeit an expensive toy this time, which is likely to put off existing PS fans and delay the console's penetration into the mass market.

If PlayStation 3 must struggle to win in its own category (and there are good reasons as to why that will happen), how can it be expected to also fight and win a war in a different category?

Now, surely there will be an uptick in BD sales due to PS3. But will it be significant? Will it be sustained? Perhaps it will come fast enough and be large enough to convince studios and CE manufacturers that BD is here to stay, in which case a studio from the HD DVD camp may defect and the war may be over. But that is unknowable right now.

What is not unknowable is that, long term, the fate of BD lies with standalone players. It is the mass market that will decide this war, and the mass market will not buy a video game console to do an HD movie player's job. Even if the game console is also an excellent HD movie player. These decisions are not rational. Purchases like this, of entertainment products with relatively high price tags, are driven more by emotion than intellect. And emotionally, Average Jenny just will not be able to let her husband Average Joe buy a game machine to watch HD movies.

At least, that's what I think they'd say. Al? Jack? Are you out there? I could use your help in figuring this all out. :p

edited for clarity

b2b, please run a background check on these characters and dish out all the dirt so that we can proceed to ignore them...thanks ;)

kdragon

12-08-06, 04:21 PM

Keeping format war aside for a moment:
How much money does Sony make on each PS2? It seems PS2 may provide an unexpected extra profit source to Sony. Since even analysts generally are surprised by strong PS2 sales, I doubt anyone considered this while estimating Sony's bottom-line. It seems that price+content+backwards-compatibility-of-PS3 is a good incentive for people who didn't/couldn't get PS3 to continue investing in PS2 games and/or consoles, and later move on to PS3. "Final Fantasy XII on the PS2 was the second best selling game for the month, with an amazing 896K units sold" as per GameDaily BIZ (http://biz.gamedaily.com/industry/feature/?id=14685)

[This is my attempt at a positive spin!]

BenDover

12-08-06, 04:23 PM

kdragon

12-08-06, 04:26 PM

if i were sony i don't know whether i would want to be selling ps2 units...maybe during the short term while there are critical supply issues but at some point they are cannibalistic...They will become cannibalistic if PS3's are left on the shelf. Seems we are far from that for several months.

Kolgar

12-08-06, 04:32 PM

b2b, please run a background check on these characters and dish out all the dirt so that we can proceed to ignore them...thanks ;)

Hehehe. I'll save him the trouble:

http://www.poolonline.com/bios/bioalries.html

They've been around forever, man. Ries now writes for Advertising Age, one of the premier industry pubs for the world of advertising.

www.advertisingage.com

:)

b2bonez

12-08-06, 04:45 PM

An impressive bit of spin... but just for giggles lets turn the tables and make it all about Xbox... you up for it... ??

What will Xbox's affect be on all of this? I think my marketing heroes Al Ries and Jack Trout would have this to say:

Xbox will not have a significant effect on the success or failure of HD-DVD. In fact, it will find only middling success in both of the markets it is trying to straddle, games and movies. Why? Because of a concept called positioning. The word "Xbox" means one thing: video games. Not HD movies. And there is little Microsoft can do to change that fact.

The idea is already in people's minds, a brand message 5 years in the making: Xbox is a box for video games. A toy. Albeit an expensive toy this time, which is likely to put off existing Xbox fans and delay the console's penetration into the mass market.

If Xbox 360 must struggle to win in its own category (and there are good reasons to suspect this will happen), how can it be expected to also fight and win a war in a different category?

Now, surely there will be an uptick in HD-DVD sales due to the Xbox addon. But will it be significant? Will it be sustained? Perhaps it will come fast enough and be large enough to jar a trigger-happy studio into defection, thus ending the war. But that is unknowable right now.

What is not unknowable is that, long term, the fate of HD-DVD lies with standalone players. It is the mass market that will decide this war, and the mass market will not buy a video game console to do an HD movie player's job. Even if the game console is also an excellent HD movie player. These decisions are not rational. Purchases like this, of entertainment products with relatively high price tags, are driven more by emotion than intellect. And emotionally, Average Jenny just will not be able to let her Average Joe husband buy a game machine to watch HD movies.

At least, that's what I think they'd say. Al? Jack? Are you out there? I could use your help in figuring this all out. :p

edited for clarity and edited again because I can't write today

Note: This quote was edited for descriptive purposes.

Now if you watch the previews on the "Miami Vice" DVD you will see just the sort of targeted marketing for the Xbox 360 as you are going to see for the PS3. It's gonna happen, there is no way that any studio (except the numbskull at TW maybe) will pass on a couple of million installed BD players (in the form of the PS3) and not market to that base.

b2b

wco81

12-08-06, 04:49 PM

I predict we will have this thread or one about the gaming/Blu-Ray market share and installed base for a couple of years.

As the franchises which made Playstation brand dominant start to come out, they will be spinning and saying PS3 can't sell 100 million again.

Kolgar

12-08-06, 05:17 PM

An impressive bit of spin... but just for giggles lets turn the tables and make it all about Xbox... you up for it... ??

b2b

Spin? Sorry, no - just marketing theory. :)

This whole thing is so complex, with so many variables, that there's no way anyone can predict how this will go. All I can do is apply some important principles while allowing that sometimes, the unexpected happens.

My take on your proposition is that there's a fundamental difference between the two consoles. On the one hand, PS3 builds a BD drive right in. This is a double-edged sword because while it makes the "Trojan Horse" possible, it also adds $200 to the price of the game console, which undoubtedly alienates people who would otherwise buy PS3 without question based on brand alone.

Alternatively, Microsoft has given people a choice. Gamers - these machines' primary audience - can buy into next-gen video games for a "mere" $300/400. (Still too high, IMO.) They aren't forced to pay extra for features they may not use. But yet, once they have that console, down the line if they decide they want to get into HD movies, the cost of entry is perceived as a "low" $199.

(I admit that I fall into this category. Once people posted links to that Circuit City coupon for $40 off, I went right out and bought an HD add-on. $160 for HD, with a movie and remote control packed in? A no-brainer, and previously, I wasn't even CONSIDERING jumping in until the format war was decided.)

Ultimately, I think Microsoft's add-on somewhat dilutes the effect of PS3's BR drive, at least here in America. (At least we can be sure that those devices are being used to play HD movies. With PS3, it's guesswork.) And because it is an optional purchase at an attractive price, the peripheral gives HD DVD the boost it needs to stay in the game. For Sony, the BR drive may in fact hamper the success of its game console, which would be the very definition of "backfire."

I would also note that if this war comes down to standalone players, HD DVD holds an advantage at the moment because it offers a practically identical experience for less money.

In sum, I guess I'm of the opinion that the HD add-on helps Xbox 360 and HD DVD, while the BD drive hurts PS3 insofar as the console will be at a distinct price disadvantage in its "home category" throughout the entire generation. Only later, when the price comes down in price, will the BR player seem "free," thus making the console a bargain to the masses. By this time, maybe devs will have found meaningful ways to enhance games via the extra storage space as well.

There's probably holes in the above in part because this is complex and in part because I'm in a hurry. Will stop back eventually to see how you respond. :p

edit: summary

UxiSXRD

12-08-06, 05:23 PM

(I admit that I fall into this category. Once people posted links to that Circuit City coupon for $40 off, I went right out and bought an HD add-on. $160 for HD, with a movie and remote control packed in? A no-brainer, and previously, I wasn't even CONSIDERING jumping in until the format war was decided.)

Likewise. Even though the plummeting prices of the XA1 were making it pretty attractive. I was VERY close to getting an XA1. It's certainly an attractive unit, even if's a huge beast. Part of me still wants one (I'm a computer guy -systems administration professionally, and general hardware/programming/software tinkering as a hobbyist) and I find the upgrade prospects intruiging and I still hope to pick up a second hand one in the coming months as people shift to the 2G players. My AVR still has open 5.1 analog inputs that heartily await TrueHD goodness that neither the PS or 360 can deliver.

The quirks of the 1G players always stacked up too high, though, being a gamer, I already owned a 360 and the subsequent $159 additional was just too good to pass up. The ergonomics (2 more additional wires between the drive and the 360) are a bit annoying, as is the aesthetics of the separate drive which are awkward at best (I just can't seem to find the right place to put it, but when I get a PS3 i'll probably stand it veritcally and move the 360 from it's centered horizontal position to the opposite side of the PS3 and stand it vertically). Aesthetically, the 360 is very loud on it's own, though I don't think the HD-DVD added at all to that.

I would also note that if this war comes down to standalone players, HD DVD holds an advantage at the moment because it offers a practically identical experience for less money.

This is where the lack of CE support hurts HD-DVD IMO. The only drive available RIGHT NOW is the 360 add-on, which for someone who isn't already a gamer, is an expensive, unwieldy, and unlikely proposition. Apparently the A2's are beginning to ship, but they're still 1 player from 1 make versus the Sony, Panasonic, Samsung, and Philips standalones.

b2bonez

12-08-06, 05:46 PM

[Note: We have been politely asked to remove some data points from this article because the NPD has discovered errors in its historical data. This affects year-to-date references, install base numbers and the full-year outlook, which this article previously contained. We will replace the missing figures as soon as NPD updates us with the corrected data.]

Interesting comments about the NPD data. What was deleated was the reference to Xbox sales reaching 3.8 million in the US. Now why they were "politely asked" to remove that data is anyones guess, but it sure is less than the 10 million "sales" MS has been shouting about here of late.

http://biz.gamedaily.com/industry/feature/?id=14685

b2b

UxiSXRD

12-08-06, 06:00 PM

Well North America is the primary market for the 360 seeing how it hasn't been the best seller in asia. How's the 360 doing in Europe?

BenDover

12-08-06, 06:18 PM

let me throw in a lending hand, it was hard to miss buried in your quote:

...because the NPD has discovered errors in its historical data. This affects year-to-date references, install base numbers and the full-year outlook, which this article previously contained. We will replace the missing figures as soon as NPD updates us with the corrected data.

b2bonez

12-08-06, 06:36 PM

let me throw in a lending hand, it was hard to miss buried in your quote:

Well I actually thought the 3.8 mil. was good. The best I had seen before that was 2.5 mil.

Edit: Found another quote... they must have missed Canada.. ;)
LOS ANGELES (Reuters) - The U.S. sales of Microsoft Corp.'s new Xbox 360 video game console during its first 13 months in stores were 6 percent higher than comparable sales of the original Xbox, market research group NPD said on Thursday.

During that period, consumers bought 3.79 million units of the Xbox 360, released in November 2005.

That compares with the original Xbox, which was released in November 2001 and sold 3.57 million units in its first 13 months in stores.

NPD measures roughly 60 percent of U.S. video game-related retail sales and makes projections on the remainder of the market.

http://ca.today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=technologyNews&storyID=2006-12-07T224130Z_01_NC7293448_RTRIDST_0_TECH-MEDIA-MICROSOFT-XBOX-COL.XML&archived=False

b2b

mikemorel

12-08-06, 06:59 PM

David Karraker shows he knows how to be a good Sony Soldier when dealing with the press. He can BS like his mentors. Let's dissect.

Sony: PS3 Issues 'Resolved', 1mil By End Of 2006 (http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=12051)

On the heels of video game hardware and software U.S. sales numbers for November released yesterday by NPD, Sony's PR head David Karraker has issued a statement noting that the company is “very pleased” with the data, adding that manufacturing problems that ham stringed the production of the PlayStation 3 at launch “have been resolved.”So he is very pleased with selling an exteremely small fraction of the units that were promised to the world in April. BD supporters - do you mind if I use that as my Sig?

And how have the problems been resolved? Any mention of blue laser diodes? Nope. Did they have some sort of revelation - did aliens give Scotty the key to manufacturing liquid aluminum? After all blue laser diodes have been known to be hard to manufacure for quite some time.

NPD data found that following the November 17 launch of the PlayStation 3 in North America, Sony had only shipped 197,000 units during its debut month rather than the earlier projected 400,000. However, Karraker reiterated in the official statement that both he and Sony “remain focused on having one million PS3's in the pipeline by December 31, 2006,” while at the same time echoing Sony's earlier commitment to airlift consoles to retail outlets within North America for the remainder of the year.OK - so you remained focused, David - great. Does that mean you will deliver? Not from this statement.

In addition, despite the somewhat anemic PlayStation 3 hardware sales numbers, Sony expressed enthusiasm over the performance of both its entrenched PlayStation 2 console as well as its PSP handheld."Look at our past triumphs! Why shouldn't that continue?"

We will continue to utilize airfreight delivery for PlayStation 3 to assure a steady stream of systems for North American consumers through the end of the year. So what happens after the end of the year? After all, shipping by sea takes 50 days. So we could expect zero (0) sales for January?

And while initial day-one launch shipment goals weren't achievable due to early manufacturing issues, those problems have been resolved and we do remain focused on having one million PS3's in the pipeline by December 31, 2006.”Yes David - we will be watching...BTW what does "in the pipeline" mean? Anyone? I've heard of "sold to retail", which both MS and Sony use, but this is a first...If there is a PS3 lying in pieces on the floor of the assembly plant in China, does that count?

I imagine studios have had enough of this BS...

briankmonkey

12-08-06, 07:02 PM

"do you mind if I use that as my Sig?"

I say if it makes you feel better inside go for it ;)

mikemorel

12-08-06, 07:03 PM

"do you mind if I use that as my Sig?"

I say if it makes you feel better inside go for it ;)How come you haven't responded to my retort yesterday? I'm interested to hear where you think I'm wrong.

b2bonez

12-08-06, 07:06 PM

David Karraker shows he knows how to be a good Sony Soldier when dealing with the press. He can BS like his mentors. Let's dissect.

Sony: PS3 Issues 'Resolved', 1mil By End Of 2006 (http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=12051)

So he is very pleased with selling an exteremely small fraction of the units that were promised to the world in April. BD supporters - do you mind if I use that as my Sig?

And how have the problems been resolved? Any mention of blue laser diodes? Nope. Did they have some sort of revelation - did aliens give Scotty the key to manufacturing liquid aluminum? After all blue laser diodes have been known to be hard to manufacure for quite some time.

OK - so you remained focused, David - great. Does that mean you will deliver? Not from this statement.

"Look at our past triumphs! Why shouldn't that continue?"

So what happens after the end of the year? After all, shipping by sea takes 50 days. So we could expect zero (0) sales for January?

Yes David - we will be watching...BTW what does "in the pipeline" mean? Anyone? I've heard of "sold to retail", which both MS and Sony use, but this is a first...If there is a PS3 lying in pieces on the floor of the assembly plant in China, does that count?

I imagine studios have had enough of this BS...

So are you that mad about not being able to find a PS3 yet... ?? :)

b2b

wco81

12-08-06, 07:10 PM

b2bonez

12-08-06, 07:26 PM

Interesting bit of info from Bill Hunt as posted on a thread here on AVS..
Meanwhile, Warner has informed me that the studio is committed to catching up with their Blu-ray Disc releases in 2007, so that all previously released HD-DVD titles will be available on Blu-ray as well, and future titles will be released on both formats simultaneously.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=765309

b2b

Michael Mullis

12-08-06, 07:40 PM

3. Xbox addon... ZERO.. Don't own a Xbox and never intend to. HD-DVD addon makes for a clumsy contraption with a bunch of wires to connect up. I hate wires.

Which tells me you haven't seen one set up yet. My add-on looks just fine on my shelf, and you can't even see the USB cable or the power cable because they go out the back. Again, more FUD by someone who doesn't own the equipment they are trying to bash. Or own anything for that matter.

Interesting bit of info from Bill Hunt as posted on a thread here on AVS..

I see you haven't done any FBI checks on Bill Hunt yet. Maybe we can find a connection to Samsung or something. ;)

mikemorel

12-08-06, 07:45 PM

What do you expect Sony to say?

"Oh, we're doomed!" "Congratulations Microsoft for winning this generation!"

"We give up! We're not going to try to bother increasing production or sales because the launch didn't meet the expectations of mikemorel on AVS forums!"

"Uncle, uncle, uncle!"

"We suggest everyone interested in consoles and high-def players go buy X360 and HD-DVD players RIGHT NOW!"The reason Sony is losing is because they are bundling blu-ray into their flagship gaming console. If they would have slapped a high speed DVD player and kept everything else the same (e.g. CELL, RSX, etc.) they would be kicking MS's ass by now in gaming on marketing alone (100 million PS2s)...Which is the way it should have gone.

I posted an article last January from EETimes which quoted a Sony rep saying "we will probably include blu ray" - which suggested internal strife over BD. Of course I was torn a new one by BD supporters saying it was a low level flunky who didn't know what he was talking about (JD Blacklow?).

I believe MS didn't really believe Sony would go through with their BD plans, which is why it has taken so long for them to integrate HD-DVD. They couldn't believe Sony would actually include BD when the blue ray diode situation looked so dire back in January 2006. I posted an article in April which quoted Howard Stringer saying "we won't be bullied by Microsoft" which in my mind triggered the go ahead for blu-ray in PS3. And so goes history...

b2bonez

12-08-06, 07:48 PM

Which tells me you haven't seen one set up yet. My add-on looks just fine on my shelf, and you can't even see the USB cable or the power cable because they go out the back. Again, more FUD by someone who doesn't own the equipment they are trying to bash. Or own anything for that matter.

I see you haven't done any FBI checks on Bill Hunt yet. Maybe we can find a connection to Samsung or something. ;)

Don't have to. He is well known and a member here on AVS.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/member.php?u=7587775

His latest postingFirst you guys are complaining that I'm obviously pro Blu-ray... then you're complaining that I must be pro HD-DVD. Now people are complaining that I'm NOT clearly taking a side yet?! Be nice if you guys would make up your mind. ;)
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7958951&&#post7958951

b2b

mikemorel

12-08-06, 08:21 PM

Something for BD supporters to ponder...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9117900#post9117900

:D

briankmonkey

12-08-06, 08:42 PM

How come you haven't responded to my retort yesterday? I'm interested to hear where you think I'm wrong.

Send me a PM with the link.. I honestly don't recall.

I never did get a PM from you in regards to what you were offering with SACD's either.

edit: I never said you weren't entitled to all your theories. I simply didn't feel the need to dissect you essay piece by piece. This isn't a war for me.

wco81

12-08-06, 08:51 PM

The reason Sony is losing is because they are bundling blu-ray into their flagship gaming console. If they would have slapped a high speed DVD player and kept everything else the same (e.g. CELL, RSX, etc.) they would be kicking MS's ass by now in gaming on marketing alone (100 million PS2s)...Which is the way it should have gone.

Well, I guess Sony better hire you as a consultant on the strategy to gain the biggest market share in the gaming markets then.

They are so lost and have no idea how to go about selling consoles. :rolleyes:

mikemorel

12-08-06, 09:02 PM

Well, I guess Sony better hire you as a consultant on the strategy to gain the biggest market share in the gaming markets then.

They are so lost and have no idea how to go about selling consoles. :rolleyes:Quite frankly I wouldn't know what Sony should do at this point. :confused: Except put a DVD player in PS3 and make the BD player optional....But what does that do to Reistance - Fall of Man.

Maybe you could suggest a strategy. :) Here is my take on the situation...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9107980#post9107980

briankmonkey, as well. What's this about SACDs?

briankmonkey

12-08-06, 09:16 PM

Quite frankly I wouldn't know what Sony should do at this point. :confused: Except put a DVD player in PS3 and make the BD player optional....But what does that do to Reistance - Fall of Man.

Maybe you could suggest a strategy. :) Here is my take on the situation...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9107980#post9107980

briankmonkey, as well. What's this about SACDs?

This, post #10 . You asked if I wanted to buy yours.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=743883&page=1

wco81

12-08-06, 09:18 PM

Kosty

12-08-06, 09:43 PM

I know you were asking somebody else, but from my standpoint, I don't know if he has any financial reasons for his opinions, but think that some of the stuff he wrote makes it look like he understands the subject matter less than a lot of people around here. Maybe even less than the average around here. I bet other people around here understand that the HD DVD camp is unlikely to be able to get 2 million working blue laser diodes into drives and sold this year, as Sony's issues with getting enough blue laser diodes are not just their issues, but industry issues for anybody wanting to build a ton of devices that use them in a very short time. His comments about if Microsoft can get a 20% attach rate then they could have nearly 4x the number of players in consumers hands as Sony with their 600,000 PS3s by the end of the year really don't make him look very knowledgable.

His math is also fairly suspect given that a 20% attach rate on 10 million units is 2 million and 2 million divided by 600,000 is 3.33. When a person puts forth numbers that come out to 3.33 and claims them as "nearly 4x" a red flag goes up for me. If he had arrived at nearly 4x the way that 2Channel did then I would have had a lot more respect for his knowledge on this subject matter. But with what he wrote, I wouldn't rely very heavily on what he says. I understand that doesn't mean that others won't rely on him though. It isn't uncommon for writers who are relied upon by many to actually be pretty lacking in their knowledge about the subject matter they are writing about.

--Darin I agree that his numbers are screwy when they compare figures from different times frames, and a 20% attach rate for the HD DVD option isn't a near term thing.
I do think that it looks like there is currently a kind of pack mentality in the press against the PS3 and Blu-ray, just in the last week or two. I'm sure some of it is justified I think it started the day after the PS3 launch wit th e NYT , WaPo and Time Mag articles.

It could turn just as quick the other way though if a strong positive news item about Blu-ray is identified.

I think the strong Xbox 360 HD DVD movie player option and the limited PS3 rollout & associated issues are having people recalculate the formats's penetration rates.

mikemorel

12-08-06, 09:43 PM

I don't presume to know better about consoles than a company which has sold over 200 million of them.

Really now, you are chiding them for their strategy or design decisions so much as gloating about the slow start they've had, aren't you?

Be honest.You want honesty? Sony knew 2 years ago that blue laser diodes were extremely difficult to make Yet they tied thir flagship console to the belief that they could produce in serious volumes quickly. Why? Arrogance?

They figured they could get studios on board based on previous sales of PS2 (100 million) and price caps on BD-ROM media and/or other incentives. They handed out "essential BD patents" (http://www.mpegla.com/pid/bluray/) to Panny, Samsung, LG, Pioneer, Dell, et. al. to prevent HD-DVD from even getting off the ground. They thought it was in the bag. Slam dunk. And if you were here for the press onslaught back in September/October of last year, it was hard to disagree. The PS3 was going to kill HD-DVD.

Well that failed. Now Sammy, LG and perhaps Hitachi (or maybe Pioneer) are considering combo players. Why, if they are so convinced of BD superiority?

Kosty

12-08-06, 09:54 PM

Kosty

12-08-06, 10:06 PM

An impressive bit of spin... but just for giggles lets turn the tables and make it all about Xbox... you up for it... ??

Now if you watch the previews on the "Miami Vice" DVD you will see just the sort of targeted marketing for the Xbox 360 as you are going to see for the PS3. It's gonna happen, there is no way that any studio (except the numbskull at TW maybe) will pass on a couple of million installed BD players (in the form of the PS3) and not market to that base.

b2b The problem is that the PS3 is the ONLY Blu-ray player out there that is anywhere near a consumer friendly price point.

The PS3 is the $499 player for the Blu-ray market/ Sony is sucking the life out of any other lower priced standalone players. That and the limited availability of Blue laser diodes makes it tough for any lower priced players to compete.

HD DVD on the other hand is offering the "USB drive" for the Xbox 360 simply as a low cost standalone HD DVD player for the 10 million soon to be Xbox 360 owners. And $499 MSRP second generation HD DVD players will soon street price for $399 sometime next year.

Without the PS3, the prices of HD DVD are 33% to 50% of the price of stand alone Blu-ray players. Without the PS3 there is no mass penetration of Blu-ray into homes next year.

Blu-ray as a movie player format is much more dependent on the PS3 than HD DVD is dependent on the Xbox 360 or its HD DVD movie player option. But that "USB drive" may lead to an earlier decisive consumer penetration of HD DVD players into homes with HDTVs than any of us might have predicted.

wco81

12-08-06, 10:14 PM

You want honesty? Sony knew 2 years ago that blue laser diodes were extremely difficult to make Yet they tied thir flagship console to the belief that they could produce in serious volumes quickly. Why? Arrogance?

You have such a short memory.

Before the PS2 launched in Japan in 1999, Sony issued all kinds of caveats. They didn't know for sure if they would get the necessary yields for the EE and GS, which at the time were using the most advanced processes. They weren't sure about having enough Rambus DRAM, which at the time was new.

PS2 used DVD when it was still relatively new. In fact, it substantially expanded the installed base of DVD in Japan. Even when PS2 came to America, there were DVD releases with labels promising compatibility with the PS2.

Sony integrated what were at the time new cutting edge components. They could have used an off-the-shelf CPU and GPU, they could have stayed with CD-ROM.

Similarly, with the PS1, they were entering a new market for them, against two entrenched and deep-pocketed (in the case of Nintendo) competitors. They introduced a console with 3D capabilities built-in (not through add-ons) and optical media. These things seem obvious now but at the time were radical departures.

So really, the Playstation brand has always pushed the envelope in one way or another. Sure DVD might have been more "safe" or "prudent" than BD but Sony didn't get where it is by playing it safe or always prudent. They've always taken risks with technology.

Will it finally catch up to them with the PS3? Perhaps, but I'm not going to write them off on the basis of 2 weeks of sales nor pronounce that they made "wrong" design decisions or that their strategy has already failed.

Kosty

12-08-06, 10:14 PM

Esox50

12-08-06, 10:22 PM

The HD DVD folks have the better brands in this catfight as they are more on target, self explanatory, and suited for a audience that buys and watches movies.
Call me crazy, but I don't think the average people (who are needed for critical mass and acceptance of these format) will find ANY of this self-explanatory. Let me give you an example (and you're going to have to act like an average joe to even comprehend it). I once saw a customer in disbelief with a salesman that an HD DVD disc would not play on a "DVD player". The salesman was trying to explain it, but heres the conversation as best as I remember the gist of it...

Customer: "It's in high-def on the disc, right?"
Salesman: "Yes"
Customer: "And it's a DVD, right?"..."So it plays on my DVD player."
Salesman: "No, you need to buy a player"
Customer: "I already have one."
Salesman: "You have an HD DVD player?"
Customer: "No, I have a DVD player."
Salesman: "But you need one of these new HD DVD players"
Customer: "But you said it was a DVD!!"
Salesman: "No, you need a HD-DVD player to play HD-DVDs"
Customer: "So it's not a DVD then. But isn't the disc the same size."
Salesman: "Yes, it is, but it's in high definition."
Customer: "But if it's a DVD and it's the same size, why can't I play it on my DVD player?"
Salesman: "Your DVD player won't read the disc. You need a HD DVD player for that."
Customer: "How much is that?"
Salesman: "About $500."

The guy said thanks, but no thanks. Put the red case back on the shelf, and walked away.

I agree, the guy was an idiot, and the salesman did a piss poor job of explaining it to him. (They both needed a kick in teh @ss IMHO). But still, this is a glaring example of what BD and HDDVD are up against. This is what the struggle will be. Not HD DVD vs. BD, but what the heck is this and why should i buy it when I already have DVDs!!!

I think we are headed back to a situation like the old days of Laserdisc...a niche market fueled by enthusiasts.

b2bonez

12-08-06, 10:25 PM

The problem is that the PS3 is the ONLY Blu-ray player out there that is anywhere near a consumer friendly price point.

The PS3 is the $499 player for the Blu-ray market/ Sony is sucking the life out of any other lower priced standalone players. That and the limited availability of Blue laser diodes makes it tough for any lower priced players to compete.

HD DVD on the other hand is offering the "USB drive" for the Xbox 360 simply as a low cost standalone HD DVD player for the 10 million soon to be Xbox 360 owners. And $499 MSRP second generation HD DVD players will soon street price for $399 sometime next year.

Without the PS3, the prices of HD DVD are 33% to 50% of the price of stand alone Blu-ray players. Without the PS3 there is no mass penetration of Blu-ray into homes next year.

Blu-ray as a movie player format is much more dependent on the PS3 than HD DVD is dependent on the Xbox 360 or its HD DVD movie player option. But that "USB drive" may lead to an earlier decisive consumer penetration of HD DVD players into homes with HDTVs than any of us might have predicted.

So the Xbox addon is great for HD-DVD.. but somehow it doesn't "suck the life" out of standalone HD-DVD players @ $199.00.. ?? :confused: I'm sorry but you can't have it both ways... If a $499 PS3 is killing BD players at $999, it's the same thing for the Xbox addon, except that it takes another $300 dollars off the table...

Any company would have to be nuts to think about building HD-DVD players because of the addon.

b2b

Richard Paul

12-08-06, 10:35 PM

They figured they could get studios on board based on previous sales of PS2 (100 million) and price caps on BD-ROM media and/or other incentives. They handed out "essential BD patents" (http://www.mpegla.com/pid/bluray/) to Panny, Samsung, LG, Pioneer, Dell, et. al. to prevent HD-DVD from even getting off the ground. They thought it was in the bag. Slam dunk. And if you were here for the press onslaught back in September/October of last year, it was hard to disagree. The PS3 was going to kill HD-DVD.

Well that failed. Now Sammy, LG and perhaps Hitachi (or maybe Pioneer) are considering combo players. Why, if they are so convinced of BD superiority?Funny Mike that the only potentials you ever seem to consider seriously are those either for HD DVD or for universal players. Also Sony bashing aside why do you think HD DVD is still competing in the market? Take away Microsoft, which is supporting HD DVD because of HDi, and Thomson, which is supporting HD DVD because of FGT, and what do you think would happen to HD DVD? It just seems hypocritical to attack Sony for actually going out and getting CE/studio support when you would probably be praising HD DVD if they had done the same thing.

Without the PS3 there is no mass penetration of Blu-ray into homes next year.Isn't that statement jumping the gun a bit considering we don't know any of the prices for the Blu-ray/HD DVD players that will be released next year?

Blu-ray as a movie player format is much more dependent on the PS3 than HD DVD is dependent on the Xbox 360 or its HD DVD movie player option.At the moment I think that is true, but while Blu-ray is currently more dependent on the PS3 I would point out that HD DVD is almost entirely dependent on Toshiba. Besides the occasional rumor there is no indication of any HD DVD player coming out soon that isn't made by Toshiba.

namechamps

12-08-06, 10:50 PM

So the Xbox addon is great for HD-DVD.. but somehow it doesn't "suck the life" out of standalone HD-DVD players @ $199.00.. ?? :confused: I'm sorry but you can't have it both ways... If a $499 PS3 is killing BD players at $999, it's the same thing for the Xbox addon, except that it takes another $300 dollars off the table...

Any company would have to be nuts to think about building HD-DVD players because of the addon.

b2b

I guess if u try hard enough u can make any statement seem confusing.

The $199 price point only helps IF you already have an xbox360. Thats about 10 million people. So 10 million people can get an $199 player. The other 300 million+ in the US would need to pay at least $499 to get the Toshiba. So the HD ADDON can have a positive effect while not canabilizing sales of stand alone players.

The other important part is that the most consumer friendly player for HD DVD right now would be the HD-A2. The most functional player will be the HD-XA2 (mainly for the analog out and 1080P). So you have the distinct price points.

$199 HD ADDON - low end. also low end audio (no analog out, no HDMI out). Also its a console which many people do not like. From a price point it doesn't affect the other 2 models if u don't have an xbox360 already. $299 + $199 would be $498 (same price as HD-A2)

$499 HD-A2 - mid range. good for 99% of consumers. according to early owner reports solves most of the glitchs in the G1 models (skipping, locking, audio lag, etc).

$999 HD-XA2 - high end. does everything the A2 offers but adds analog out & 1080P. While most consumers dont need it I think it will be popular with enthusiasts.

Now compare that 2 the PS3.

$599 = cheapest BD player, also the best. Has higher PQ. Has HDMI 1.3. Can transport audio formats to next gen receivers. Not really any point what so ever to get any other player (except maybe convience). So how is that marketing going to work?

"Buy pioneer. We are almost as good as the PS3 at ONLY twice the price. No new features, except a nice remote and our player doesn't look like the george foreman grill. That's got to be worth an additional $600. Right?"

Still confused?

smithfarmer

12-08-06, 11:04 PM

Kotsy will never notice positive BR or PS3 news.
When was the last time you posted anything positive about HD DVD?

b2bonez

12-08-06, 11:07 PM

I guess if u try hard enough u can make any statement seem confusing.

The $199 price point only helps IF you already have an xbox360. Thats about 10 million people. So 10 million people can get an $199 player. The other 300 million+ in the US would need to pay at least $499 to get the Toshiba. So the HD ADDON can have a positive effect while not canabilizing sales of stand alone players.

The other important part is that the most consumer friendly player for HD DVD right now would be the HD-A2. The most functional player will be the HD-XA2 (mainly for the analog out and 1080P). So you have the distinct price points.

$199 HD ADDON - low end. also low end audio (no analog out, no HDMI out). Also its a console which many people do not like. From a price point it doesn't affect the other 2 models if u don't have an xbox360 already. $299 + $199 would be $498 (same price as HD-A2)

$499 HD-A2 - mid range. good for 99% of consumers. according to early owner reports solves most of the glitchs in the G1 models (skipping, locking, audio lag, etc).

$999 HD-XA2 - high end. does everything the A2 offers but adds analog out & 1080P. While most consumers dont need it I think it will be popular with enthusiasts.

Now compare that 2 the PS3.

$599 = cheapest BD player, also the best. Has higher PQ. Has HDMI 1.3. Can transport audio formats to next gen receivers. Not really any point what so ever to get any other player (except maybe convience). So how is that marketing going to work?

"Buy pioneer. We are almost as good as the PS3 at ONLY twice the price. No new features, except a nice remote and our player doesn't look like the george foreman grill. That's got to be worth an additional $600. Right?"

Still confused?

Well right here on AVS you can see that 629 people have reported buying the addon. There is no way that you could say that isn't hurting the standalone player sales for Toshiba and reducing the interest in other companies building players (or USB PC drives too).

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/poll.php?do=showresults&pollid=4036

b2b

smithfarmer

12-08-06, 11:10 PM

Wouldn't it save certain members a lot of time if they just put:

"blurray is teh debil, HD-DVD is angelic.. Why? because I said so it must be true"

in their signatures instead typing the same BS over and over again in every topic they enter?
How ironic. You can always follow your own advice and put this in your sig - "HD-DVD is teh debil, blurray is angelic.. Why? because I said so it must be true"

BenDover

12-08-06, 11:33 PM

I can't help but chuckle...

http://www.engadget.com/2006/12/08/ucf-mad-scientists-squeeze-1tb-of-data-onto-single-dvd/

Michael Mullis

12-08-06, 11:38 PM

chad_cincy

12-08-06, 11:46 PM

Well right here on AVS you can see that 629 people have reported buying the addon. There is no way that you could say that isn't hurting the standalone player sales for Toshiba and reducing the interest in other companies building players (or USB PC drives too).

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/poll.php?do=showresults&pollid=4036

b2b

In my humble opinion, 629 people are effecting squat in the big picture. :)

In addition, AVS appears to be attracting a gamer crowd. A large percentage of which, regardless of whether they agree or not, are more gamers than AV Enthusiasts. I've noted a lot of new members in the past several months who's main focus seems to be the PS3 and Xbox. Nothing wrong with that, just a different demographic than one may be used to here.

b2bonez

12-08-06, 11:47 PM

Didn't stop HP. Isn't stopping people from going out and scooping up the Toshiba A2 that just released.

A2 might be a good idea now that you mention it.. ;) You'll be interested in this. Getting a report that the addon is coughing up hairballs on "Matador", a AVC H.264 disc.. Not good..

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=765413

Edit: False alarm... box was overheating..

b2b

chad_cincy

12-08-06, 11:50 PM

I can't help but chuckle...

http://www.engadget.com/2006/12/08/ucf-mad-scientists-squeeze-1tb-of-data-onto-single-dvd/
One does wonder about the specifics, but this line sure does make one grin. :D

It's nice to see what a few nerds in a college science lab can pull off while waiting around for multi-billion dollar corporations to get a 50GB drive out the door.

smithfarmer

12-08-06, 11:56 PM

If the propaganda worked as well as you thought, then there would be more companies building HD-DVD players... but the reality is only one company is (Toshiba) ;)

Time for a recap...

Toshiba takes 6 months to build and ship 70,000 slow, buggy prototype players and they are given credit for being visionary genuses in the CE world.

Sony builds and delivers (in two weeks) 197,000 cutting edge technology PS3s that not only play games but are very excellent BD movie players and they are bashed at every opportunity for failing so badly that their only option is to give up, pack their bags and go home (according to Robbie) :rolleyes:

Oh yes... the propaganda for HD-DVD is rolling "full steam ahead". Too bad their product production isn't as effective as their jaw flapping... ;)

b2b
How late was the PS3 to market? How did that promised 6 million PS3 worldwide launch go? How late to market was that Sony BD player? I could go on and on but I think you get my point of how your selective memory is hard at work. ;) You can rag on Toshiba all you want but everyone knows Sony is far and away the reigning king of failed promises.

It's really amazing how you conveniently ignore the stream of "propaganda" that steadily flows from Sony's flapping jaws while at the same time you constantly deride HD DVD.

Michael Mullis

12-09-06, 12:03 AM

A2 might be a good idea now that you mention it.. You'll be interested in this. Getting a report that the addon is coughing up hairballs on "Matador", a AVC H.264 disc.. Not good..

You know b2b, it really helps if you read the entire thread before trying to post.

The last post in the thread starts off......

I fixed it. It turned out that I had my 360 on top of my HD-DVR which puts out alot of heat without realizing it. When I fliped it it was sooooooooo hot.

User error. But it was a nice try man. Sorry, but the discs that don't work in players right now still belongs to Fox and Blu-ray.

b2bonez

12-09-06, 12:14 AM

smithfarmer

12-09-06, 12:22 AM

Well North America is the primary market for the 360 seeing how it hasn't been the best seller in asia. How's the 360 doing in Europe?
A whole lot better than the PS3. ;)

b2bonez

12-09-06, 12:32 AM

How late was the PS3 to market? How did that promised 6 million PS3 worldwide launch go? How late to market was that Sony BD player? I could go on and on but I think you get my point of how your selective memory is hard at work. ;) You can rag on Toshiba all you want but everyone knows Sony is far and away the reigning king of failed promises.

It's really amazing how you conveniently ignore the stream of "propaganda" that steadily flows from Sony's flapping jaws while at the same time you constantly deride HD DVD.

The only promise that Sony is having problems with is building enough PS3s to meet demand. As a hard-core HD-DVD fan that should be music to your ears. Or are you just mad because you can't find one.. ;)

Tell the truth now, if you didn't already own a HD-DVD player and side by side there was a $499 A2 and a $499 PS3 and you could only pick one with never a chance to have the other, you would pick the A2 and not the PS3 ?? :)

b2b

briankmonkey

12-09-06, 01:06 AM

How ironic. You can always follow your own advice and put this in your sig - "HD-DVD is teh debil, blurray is angelic.. Why? because I said so it must be true"

accept I don't constantly trash HD-DVD in the way that some constantly trash blu-ray, so your use of the word ironic doesn't fit. Just because I don't agree with the constant nonsensical ramblings from HD-DVD fanboys, doesn't mean I hate HD-DVD. Quite a bit of different.

Reminds me of xbox360 fanboys.. It's not ok to like more than one console, you have to only like the xbox360 and no other consoles. If you like the 360 and other consoles you are the enemy.

b2bonez

12-09-06, 01:23 AM

You know b2b, it really helps if you read the entire thread before trying to post.

The last post in the thread starts off......

I fixed it. It turned out that I had my 360 on top of my HD-DVR which puts out alot of heat without realizing it. When I fliped it it was sooooooooo hot.

User error. But it was a nice try man. Sorry, but the discs that don't work in players right now still belongs to Fox and Blu-ray.

Oops.. that nasty Matador is at it again.. ;)
The Matador is also giving my HD-A1 fits. It takes at least 2 minutes to load, and the movie has a catastrophic freeze-up at the 1hr 5min mark that the player absolutely refuses to play through no matter how many times I eject the disc or reboot the machine. I have not had a problem this severe since firmware 1.0. I think there's something wrong with the encoding on the disc.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9119745&&#post9119745

b2b

UxiSXRD

12-09-06, 01:56 AM

Not HD DVD vs. BD, but what the heck is this and why should i buy it when I already have DVDs!!!

I think we are headed back to a situation like the old days of Laserdisc...a niche market fueled by enthusiasts.

Maybe except for a couple other factors: 1) the currently prevalent corporate attitude towards DRM. AACS works for everyone, regardless of the format war, regardless of what some of us think about Fair Use. There are some studios that want more even more than AACS, though (Warner), and they get BD+.

I'm actually fairly surprised that the studios aren't yet trying to offer incentive. Releasing the new AACS discs earlier and/or delaying the old format by an arbitrary period of time. Maybe that will come. If I was really interested in protecting my content, I would give a 3 or 4 month head start to the better protected format, especially while it's still viable.

2) DVD is starting to scrape the bottom of the bucket. Yes, it's still selling but profits are pretty much down across the board. They're hoping to get to double dip again. Some of the choices picked for release by both sides are a bit puzzling to me, while the greats that would truly sell to the enthusiasts and masses alike (think Star Wars, LOTR, Spider Man, etc).

In a way, I think the enthusiasts fueling a smaller scale release of an HD format would be better. I'm willing to pay $40-50 per disk for reference quality titles that would make it worth it. I was still a kid when Laserdisc was big, but current prices are a dream compared to what LD afficionadoes had to go through.

UxiSXRD

12-09-06, 01:58 AM

A whole lot better than the PS3. ;)

How's the 360 doing compared to the PS2 in Europe? We know PS2 is still doing pretty damned good in North America... :eek:

smithfarmer

12-09-06, 02:00 AM

The only promise that Sony is having problems with is building enough PS3s to meet demand. As a hard-core HD-DVD fan that should be music to your ears. Or are you just mad because you can't find one.. ;)

Tell the truth now, if you didn't already own a HD-DVD player and side by side there was a $499 A2 and a $499 PS3 and you could only pick one with never a chance to have the other, you would pick the A2 and not the PS3 ?? :)

b2b
Since you've added a qualifier(one that nobody will ever face) to your question and I'm a gamer, I'd have to pick the PS3, but we live in the real world and you have to take into account that I prefer and already have an Xbox 360, so in reality, I'd get the add-on for $159. ;) To me, it's about the games and simply put, the 360 has more of what I want to play.

I'll start watching BD movies when BD players hit the $250 mark or universal players can be had for $500. I figure by that time there will be enough content to make either one a worthwhile purchase.

2Channel

12-09-06, 02:01 AM

The only promise that Sony is having problems with is building enough PS3s to meet demand. As a hard-core HD-DVD fan that should be music to your ears. Or are you just mad because you can't find one.. ;)

Tell the truth now, if you didn't already own a HD-DVD player and side by side there was a $499 A2 and a $499 PS3 and you could only pick one with never a chance to have the other, you would pick the A2 and not the PS3 ?? :)

b2b

I just grabbed my wallet and I'm pulling on my shoes. Are you saying someone's got the PS3 in stock? I've got my G2 HD-DVD order in, but finding that PS3....... ;)

Here's something interesting. If you're going to CES in January, they have this nifty little online tool called MyCES. You can search and build your event plan with this tool by typing in something of interest to you, say HD-DVD.

Just a warning, I did a google search after this to collect more info. One of the very few links found was from AVS, but it was pulled off. So, I think you should treat this information as priviliged and not post it.

Talkstr8t

12-09-06, 03:55 AM

Sorry, been away from the Forum for a few days.
I just wanted to call Talk out for preaching so voraciously from the mountain that all Blu-ray players are de facto BD-J compliant. They are not. He called me out when I intimated the Sammy wasn't (it was released before the compliance disc was locked down), and voila, it wasn't.Based on what? Have the Fox BD-J titles not run on a non-upgraded Samsung player?
Now Sony admits the BDP-S1 isn't BD-J compliant.No, they say certain discs may require a firmware upgrade. That could refer to PiP support, could it not? How do you respond to Rio's pointing out that the existing BD-J titles work just fine on the Sony BDP-S1?
I have yet to see any evidence that Blu-ray players have been released with non-functioning BD-J implementations. On the other hand there is very clear evidence that the Toshiba players were released with non-function HDi implementations, given the behavior of various movies on non-upgraded players.

- Talk

Talkstr8t

12-09-06, 03:55 AM

The A1 and XA1 were both fully compliant with HDi at launch, a very slight mod was made to improve operation.A very slight mod, meaning one which makes certain movies work when they didn't before? Doesn't sound so slight to me. Either the initial HD-DVD players (both standalone and PC-based) a) weren't compliant with the HDi spec, b) were compliant with the spec but the compliance tests are incredibly weak, or c) there is some form of unannounced profiling going on where certain HDi features above-and-beyond the spec requirements are being used. What's your guess, Rdjam?
This is entirely different to the Bluray situation where every single Bluray player is not even remotely meeting the mandatory BD-J spec (apart from the PS3, MAYBE) and manaufacturers like Sony promising they'll fix them in 2007 to meet the mandatory basic BD-J spec.Where have you seen a shred of evidence that a single player isn't compatible with the spec? All the BD-J titles have been reported to run on all the players (without firmware upgrades). Where is your "not even remotely meeting the mandatory BD-J spec" evidence?!?

Talkstr8t

12-09-06, 03:57 AM

After all - only 5 launch games, and "iffy" compatibility with the existing PS2 library.Iffy, meaning about 200 games out of 8,000 (2.5%) don't work? That's iffy? So how would you classify the Xbox 360's 50% incompatible rate (or 100% if it's a core system)?

Kosty

12-09-06, 08:20 AM

So the Xbox addon is great for HD-DVD.. but somehow it doesn't "suck the life" out of standalone HD-DVD players @ $199.00.. ?? :confused: I'm sorry but you can't have it both ways... If a $499 PS3 is killing BD players at $999, it's the same thing for the Xbox addon, except that it takes another $300 dollars off the table...

Any company would have to be nuts to think about building HD-DVD players because of the addon.

b2b Except the HD DVD add on is only targeted at Xbox owners. Their are a lot of other people who own HDTV's or soon will who don;t have a gaming console, or want the gaming console to be on the smaller TV in the kids room.

And once you like HD DVD (if you had a HD DVD player you would know ;) )you like watching movies in HD or upconverted SD DVD. A lot of those Xbox 360 HD DVD movie player bundle owners will like what they see and buy a stand alone player so the kid can have his Xbox back. The option may even spur some more HD DVD sales as a stand alone player offers something different. $199 to taste HD DVD, $499 or less to get a stand alone player. Its the selling of HD crack to kids model. Give them a taste and they gotta have it.

Not so with the $499/599 priced PS3 when the nearest upgrade to a stand alone player is $999 MSRP. The higher cost and lack of availability discourages risk and experimentation.

In short, their still is an opening for other low priced stand alone players because, not everyone has a Xbox 360, and for those that do a stand alone player may offer features HDMI, True HD, etc, that the add on drive lacks.

confused: I'm sorry but you can't have it both ways Sure I can because the HD DVD options of $199 and $499 are cheaper than the Blu-ray options of $499/599 and $999, $1299 and $1499. And the HD DVD options are better values because you can get standard DVD upconversion for less than $999.

If you're confused, let me make it simple:

(1 )$199 < $499 < $999

(2) Free upconversion of a consumer existing library of standard DVDs is better than no upconversion capability.

Kosty

12-09-06, 08:30 AM

A2 might be a good idea now that you mention it.. ;) You'll be interested in this. Getting a report that the addon is coughing up hairballs on "Matador", a AVC H.264 disc.. Not good..

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=765413

Edit: False alarm... box was overheating..

b2b You go B2!

With your finely tuned antenna out there I am very confident that I will hear of any possible issue negative to HD DVD, positive to Blu-ray as soon as it comes across cyberspace.

When even you can't find any items in those categories that are significant.......it must mean something. :rolleyes:

Kosty

12-09-06, 08:34 AM

Kosty

12-09-06, 08:40 AM

The only promise that Sony is having problems with is building enough PS3s to meet demand. As a hard-core HD-DVD fan that should be music to your ears. Or are you just mad because you can't find one.. ;)

Tell the truth now, if you didn't already own a HD-DVD player and side by side there was a $499 A2 and a $499 PS3 and you could only pick one with never a chance to have the other, you would pick the A2 and not the PS3 ?? :)

b2b Yes I'm mad that I can't find one. Yes I would have bought the PS3. But since this is the real world and not Fantasy Island and we're not "doing the time warp again" I picked up a HD DVD player and loved it.

I'm still lovin' it. Really, you ought to pick up one of these newfangled HD players, you might like it as well.

It kinda helped that one was available almost a year earlier (April 2006) than when the PS3 will be easier to find on the shelf (March 2007 ???).

I was initally a Blu-ray supporter, but Sony blew it for me. I reconsidered HD DVD and found that it delivered more for less cost.

Sony had me, and then lost me. I don't think I am alone.

Kosty

12-09-06, 08:48 AM

RE: Sony having me then losing me

My reasons for converting to HD DVD, from Grubert's HD DVD purchase thread.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?threadid=721717

Grubert. Great post. Thanks.

When DVD was introduced I was dumbstruck on how much of a movie was missing through pan and scan. Its funny that Bladerunner was also my epiphany for widescreen. I came across Bill Hunt's, (from digitalbits.com) guide to Widescreen and Anamorphic video and I was shocked on how much of a movie was missing in the "fullscreen" version.

A few years back, a new client of mine sold me a 57 inch RPTV and I got it ISF calibrated. Later I become a believer in front projection as the best bang for the buck. Watching my favorite movies in widescreen was a joy. But when I started seeing a few of them in HD, I started having a craving for them in a big way. Just then I found out about the new HD formats, and I hoped for a unification.

All the time I was craving more HD content, and the ability to watch my favorites on a HD shiny disc. The though of a format war irritated me, but I figured it wouldn't be that bad, I could live with it as great content would be available in both formats. I thought that Blu-ray made more sense because I believed at the time than 50GB would be needed to deliver quality HD content. Windows Media 9 aka VC-1 showed promise, but I didn't think it could work on a 30GB let alone 15GB disc, so I though HD DVD would not be enough for HD. I was wrong.

Sony concerned me about their special propietary format stuff and bleeding edge technology again, but I figured they wouldn't be stupid enough to launch a format before it was ready to deliver great video. I was amused at the Blu-ray marketing hype, but I thought that the video quality would be worth it. I was wrong.

I really didn't pay that much attention to the format wars until the HD DVD launch. I was pleasantly surprised that DL30 was the norm and that VC-1 was fantastic at its compression ratios. I was amazed at the quality of the HD content, and although I was irritated at some of the HD DVD players quirks (remote response for one) I was stunned by the video and audio performance. Far better than the best OTA or cable HD I had seen.

I was willing to try Blu-ray but after seeing several demos and after watching a Samsung's output in real life I was surprised on how that Blu-ray launch combination of player and titles didn't have that HD wow factor I saw in HD DVD. I was willing to wait a bit until Blu-ray got some things moving. But as the Blu-ray excuses kept coming, I started wondering more and more.

But now with the poor release of Blu-ray titles, in MPEG-2 and SL25, and the delay and delay of the less expensive Blu-ray players, DL50, and the PS3 soft launch I have become more and more down on Blu-ray. While the HD DVD quality continues to amaze me on a daily basis. I cannot see paying a premium for Blu-ray for the same eventual picture quality that HD DVD is now delivering.

The only reason to buy a Blu-ray player is the content, but with so many releases coming out in HD DVD and the ability to import region free HD DVD discs from Europe I have no plans to buy a Blu-ray player until prices drop to under $199. I figure HD DVD will keep me busy until then. By that time a dual format player may be on the street.

With reasonably priced Blu-ray players not readily available until next summer or longer, I also feel its a rational decision to enjoy the benefits of HD DVD for the next year while waiting to see how Blu-ray develops.

To me, its simple. HD DVD has delivered stunning HD content. Blu-ray has not. HD DVD has enough content to get me through the next year so I can see how Blu-ray develops. Maybe then, I'll get a Blu-ray player too.

But right now I am enjoying better HD than I ever thought would be posssible in a consumer format and enjoying every minute of it. HD DVD has made a believer out of me.

mikemorel

12-09-06, 08:50 AM

Funny Mike that the only potentials you ever seem to consider seriously are those either for HD DVD or for universal players. Also Sony bashing aside why do you think HD DVD is still competing in the market? Hey Richard - I believe you thought BD would squash HD DVD by now, no?
why do I think HD DVD is still competing in the market? You must have read the press lately...Consumers love HD-DVD; it's inexpensive and high quality. Blu-ray, not so much.

Take away Microsoft, which is supporting HD DVD because of HDi, and Thomson, which is supporting HD DVD because of FGT, and what do you think would happen to HD DVD? Take away Sony from BD and what would happen to BD? Hypothetical situations become meaningless when they are not grounded in reality.

It just seems hypocritical to attack Sony for actually going out and getting CE/studio support when you would probably be praising HD DVD if they had done the same thing.I laud Sony for their efforts - they certainly are making a go at keeping the oligopoly together! But what bugs me is that these massive financial losses are going to have to get paid for, and soon. Any investment in BD replication equipmment, replication price caps, drive R & D, yield losses, back room studio deals, etc. will all be funded by the consumer in the long run (i.e. after war is over). With HD-DVD these costs will be much lower and more manageable.

Kosty

12-09-06, 09:02 AM

Call me crazy, but I don't think the average people (who are needed for critical mass and acceptance of these format) will find ANY of this self-explanatory. Let me give you an example (and you're going to have to act like an average joe to even comprehend it). I once saw a customer in disbelief with a salesman that an HD DVD disc would not play on a "DVD player". The salesman was trying to explain it, but heres the conversation as best as I remember the gist of it...

Customer: "It's in high-def on the disc, right?"
Salesman: "Yes"
Customer: "And it's a DVD, right?"..."So it plays on my DVD player."
Salesman: "No, you need to buy a player"
Customer: "I already have one."
Salesman: "You have an HD DVD player?"
Customer: "No, I have a DVD player."
Salesman: "But you need one of these new HD DVD players"
Customer: "But you said it was a DVD!!"
Salesman: "No, you need a HD-DVD player to play HD-DVDs"
Customer: "So it's not a DVD then. But isn't the disc the same size."
Salesman: "Yes, it is, but it's in high definition."
Customer: "But if it's a DVD and it's the same size, why can't I play it on my DVD player?"
Salesman: "Your DVD player won't read the disc. You need a HD DVD player for that."
Customer: "How much is that?"
Salesman: "About $500."

The guy said thanks, but no thanks. Put the red case back on the shelf, and walked away.

I agree, the guy was an idiot, and the salesman did a piss poor job of explaining it to him. (They both needed a kick in teh @ss IMHO). But still, this is a glaring example of what BD and HDDVD are up against. This is what the struggle will be. Not HD DVD vs. BD, but what the heck is this and why should i buy it when I already have DVDs!!!

I think we are headed back to a situation like the old days of Laserdisc...a niche market fueled by enthusiasts.I agree that consumer education is a major issue for both of these formats.

I just think that HD DVD is easier to explain and brand than Blu-ray because you are building on consumer understandable terms and that HD is understandable as another term for high definition, consumers already know DVDs are shiny discs that play movies, so HD DVD is to DVD as HDTV is to TV.

That's a lot easier than explaining what a blu-ray is.

b2bonez

12-09-06, 10:40 AM

I agree that consumer education is a major issue for both of these formats.

I just think that HD DVD is easier to explain and brand than Blu-ray because you are building on consumer understandable terms and that HD is understandable as another term for high definition, consumers already know DVDs are shiny discs that play movies, so HD DVD is to DVD as HDTV is to TV.

That's a lot easier than explaining what a blu-ray is.

It's really pretty easy. Anything with DVD in its name = old (as in last century technology)

If you want new, then it has to be Blu.. ;)

b2b

b2bonez

12-09-06, 11:02 AM

Only you could spin 629 sales of a HD player as a negative for the format. Well, since the Samsung probably sold less than 6000 units, those initial AVS buyers just bought 10% of the Samsung numbers in a week.

Ohhh, thats just a horrible indicator for HD DVD......

I didn't say it was bad for HD-DVD (as a format), I said it was bad for Toshiba standalone sales and leaves little incentive (as in profit range) for other companies to start building HD-DVD players.

It's simple math, the less $$ at retail you have to work with, the less dollars you have to carve a profit out of.

Of course I know it's hard for HD-DVD fans to accept generally regarded principals, like for optical storage, that bigger and faster is better than slower and smaller, but certain things are true no matter the situation.

b2b

b2bonez

12-09-06, 11:15 AM

You go B2!

With your finely tuned antenna out there I am very confident that I will hear of any possible issue negative to HD DVD, positive to Blu-ray as soon as it comes across cyberspace.

When even you can't find any items in those categories that are significant.......it must mean something. :rolleyes:

Well there is some kind of problem with the discs from Weinstein.. ;)
The Weinstein Company HD DVD issues
I just got through doing my reviews of 3 of the 4 Weinstein releases and I wanted to give you guys a heads up on an issue that might be a bother for some of you. These discs seem to take a lot longer to load than normal HD DVDs. I am using the HD-A1 and with Wolf Creek and The Matador it took nearly 3-4x's longer for the disc to actually start playing once I loaded it in than a normal HD DVD (which already takes a bit). I haven't tried it on my 360 Add-on yet but I will today and report back. I've sent an email to Genius about it as well, so they will be aware.

So if you buy these discs be REALLY patient when loading. They will play eventually.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=761498

Hmm... what did I say about HD-DVD having to drag 70,000 A1 "boat anchors" behind it ?? :eek:

b2b

Kolgar

12-09-06, 11:25 AM

amillians

12-09-06, 11:31 AM

Based on what? Have the Fox BD-J titles not run on a non-upgraded Samsung player?Fox had to re-do the BD-J for From Hell, slipping the title 3 months in the process. Why is that? And this may be a trick question, so answer carefully.
No, they say certain discs may require a firmware upgrade. That could refer to PiP support, could it not?Well, I *guess* it could. If the BDP-S1 could support PiP. But it doesn't. Look closely at the words Sony used:

To enjoy the BD-J function in some discs, you may need to upgrade your player with the latest firmware. This update is anticipated to be released in 2007.

You don't have planned firmware updates in place *before* you launch a player if there's no problem. They *know* they have a problem with the BD-J stack. Do you think they (well, Pioneer, really, since Sony doesn't have the time these days to deal with Blu-ray CE stuff) have been riding Esmertec roughshod for no good reason over the problems with QCing the BD-J classes sitting on the Jbed/MIPS32 24Kc setup in both decks?

Why is it *so* hard for you to admit all is not perfect in BD-J Land? It's painfully obvious that BD-J is suffering the same growing pains as HDi; what's different though, is that HDi fixes happen tout de suite (thank you, MSFT), while we get vague "sometime in 2007" promises for fixes from core Blu-ray backers. How odd...

Kolgar

12-09-06, 12:13 PM

I didn't say it was bad for HD-DVD (as a format), I said it was bad for Toshiba standalone sales and leaves little incentive (as in profit range) for other companies to start building HD-DVD players.

It's simple math, the less $$ at retail you have to work with, the less dollars you have to carve a profit out of.

b2b

Kosty already explained very eloquently that the add-on is selling to a ready-made install base of 360 owners. Toshiba's basically alone, so I doubt they mind the help. 360-owning consumers benefit because they get to buy into HD for cheap. (Given the prices of standalones, most add-on buyers probably would not have bought into HD had it not been for the inexpensive add-on.) And studios win because more discs sell as a result.

Now how does this work on the BD side? You've got a handful of hardware manufacturers all competing with each other, splitting the profit pie. And by your logic - that a game console is a viable alternative to stand-alone players - they're ALL dramatically undercut by PS3. Where is the incentive there?

The truth is, the mass market of future BD buyers (assuming such a thing comes to pass) will choose a standalone player over a "toy." Surely, they will reason, a more expensive standalone player is "better" than PS3. (Even if it's not, most people will have a hard time accepting that notion.) Besides, standalone players will include things like remote controls, etc. that legitimize them as the real deal.

But nice try making it sound enviable that Toshiba is nearly alone. Personally, that point had worried me somewhat but now I feel much better. :)

b2bonez

12-09-06, 12:36 PM

Kosty already explained very eloquently that the add-on is selling to a ready-made install base of 360 owners. Toshiba's basically alone, so I doubt they mind the help. 360-owning consumers benefit because they get to buy into HD for cheap. (Given the prices of standalones, most add-on buyers probably would not have bought into HD had it not been for the inexpensive add-on.) And studios win because more discs sell as a result.

Now how does this work on the BD side? You've got a handful of hardware manufacturers all competing with each other, splitting the profit pie. And by your logic - that a game console is a viable alternative to stand-alone players - they're ALL dramatically undercut by PS3. Where is the incentive there?

The truth is, the mass market of future BD buyers (assuming such a thing comes to pass) will choose a standalone player over a "toy." Surely, they will reason, a more expensive standalone player is "better" than PS3. (Even if it's not, most people will have a hard time accepting that notion.) Besides, standalone players will include things like remote controls, etc. that legitimize them as the real deal.

But nice try making it sound enviable that Toshiba is nearly alone. Personally, that point had worried me somewhat but now I feel much better. :)

Well the difference is $499 being the price for the PS3 leaves the BD standalones room to work with over the next year or so. Sigma is working with a bunch of CE companies with their SoC solution and my crystal ball sez that by the end of next year there will be a bunch of BD players in the MSRP range of $499-$999. Street prices should be even less...

Any guess about how many HD-DVD players you will see for $199.00 ??? ;)

b2b

thomopolis

12-09-06, 12:42 PM

Well the difference is $499 being the price for the PS3 leaves the BD standalones room to work with over the next year or so. Sigma is working with a bunch of CE companies with their SoC solution and my crystal ball sez that by the end of next year there will be a bunch of BD players in the MSRP range of $499-$999. Street prices should be even less...

Any guess about how many HD-DVD players you will see for $199.00 ??? ;)

b2b

By the end of next year!!! If BD doesn't have players in the $500-$1000 range by Spring they have lost. First gen over pricing is one thing - $3000 HD receivers come to mind - but it can't stay a niche in a format war forever.

There are enough adults who simply don't want to own a game machine or wouldn't even think to buy one that would pay the same price for just a player. To some the PS3 is like sticking a kick-ass blender in a fridge - who cares if it is the same price it's weird. To others it is like sticking an ice machine in a fridge.

You have to appeal to both, and you can't at $1000-$1300 for the next year.

b2bonez

12-09-06, 12:55 PM

By the end of next year!!! If BD doesn't have players in the $500-$1000 range by Spring they have lost. First gen over pricing is one thing - $3000 HD receivers come to mind - but it can't stay a niche in a format war forever.

There are enough adults who simply don't want to own a game machine or wouldn't even think to buy one that would pay the same price for just a player. To some the PS3 is like sticking a kick-ass blender in a fridge - who cares if it is the same price it's weird. To others it is like sticking an ice machine in a fridge.

You have to appeal to both, and you can't at $1000-$1300 for the next year.

You should see the new SoC players starting June '07 when the BD Live profile becomes mandatory for all BluRay players. All of the '06 models will start being discounted after the holidays.

b2b

Rob Zuber

12-09-06, 12:56 PM

If BD doesn't have players in the $500-$1000 range by Spring they have lost.Nonsense. It's amazing how often people mistake the small community of AVS Forums for the entire world! :eek:

Kosty

12-09-06, 01:09 PM

b2bonez

12-09-06, 01:43 PM

^^^

Are you Blu-ray advocates saying that it its probable that no Blu-ray player besides the PS3 will be on the market until the earliest June 2007 and maybe even December 2007?

I agree that that's probable because the 1st generation players are just hitting the market (besides the Samsung) and no hints of cheaper products have been made.

But if that is the case, doesn't that leave a huge advantage for HD DVD with its $499 or less players being on the market since last April 2006? Let alone the $199 HD DVD add on price. Doesn't that concede a huge price advantage to HD DVD that sooner or later consumers will notice when enough HD DVD players are available in inventory to be readily available?

Well ya... ;) G2 BD players start to get here June '07 and continue until holidays '07. G1s wlll be here until then..

It's just like raising tomatoes.. Your seeds are picked out by Dec. and the first seedings are started in Feb. if you want to have slicers on the picnic table for Fourth of July... :)

b2b

nataraj

12-09-06, 01:51 PM

No, they say certain discs may require a firmware upgrade. That could refer to PiP support, could it not?

Why speculate talk. You should know. Tell us what exactly it supports and what it doesn't ....

g55555sim

12-09-06, 02:01 PM

You should see the new SoC players starting June '07 when the BD Live profile becomes mandatory for all BluRay players. All of the '06 models will start being discounted after the holidays.

b2b

great news for BD lovers .. now they all can put their purchase intend on hold while waiting for the price slash in June 2007 !! i hope you are not tryin to sabotage BD with that post :D

thomopolis

12-09-06, 02:07 PM

Nonsense. It's amazing how often people mistake the small community of AVS Forums for the entire world! :eek:

?????

So your saying the entire world is fine with having only $1000+ machines to choose from?

Rob Zuber

12-09-06, 02:23 PM

So your saying the entire world is fine with having only $1000+ machines to choose from?The world isn't paying attention at all.

b2bonez

12-09-06, 02:28 PM

?????

So your saying the entire world is fine with having only $1000+ machines to choose from?

With HD-DVD you have only three choices and one of them is $1000, one is the addon @ $199. That leaves the A2 @ 499. Is it fine that the entire world has one real HD-DVD player that's not $1000 dollars ??? ;)

b2b

Michael Mullis

12-09-06, 02:50 PM

great news for BD lovers .. now they all can put their purchase intend on hold while waiting for the price slash in June 2007 !! i hope you are not tryin to sabotage BD with that post

Well, you know HE'S not buying into Blu-ray right now. He's content just beeing a cheerleader without being part of the team.

Now we're waiting until June 2007? Ok, let me update the calendar.

DTV TiVo Dealer

12-09-06, 03:08 PM

With HD-DVD you have only three choices and one of them is $1000, one is the addon @ $199. That leaves the A2 @ 499. Is it fine that the entire world has one real HD-DVD player that's not $1000 dollars ??? ;)

b2b

It's fine for my 1000 + customers. HD-A2 has been the second highest selling HD box that my company has sold in very high volume.

One sub $500 HD optical disc player is a lot better than zero. Where's BD's sub-$500 HD player?

-Robert

crussader

12-09-06, 03:09 PM

You should see the new SoC players starting June '07 when the BD Live profile becomes mandatory for all BluRay players. All of the '06 models will start being discounted after the holidays.

Talk about dragging boat anchors...

And once again I see that it's still six months into the future for BluRay's promises to materialize.

b2bonez

12-09-06, 03:12 PM

Well, you know HE'S not buying into Blu-ray right now. He's content just beeing a cheerleader without being part of the team.

Now we're waiting until June 2007? Ok, let me update the calendar.

See, that's what so funny about HD-DVD fans. They equate this to some form of "team" participation. These are simple consumers products not unlike toilet paper.

So Mike, are you on the "Charmin" team or the "White Cloud"... ??? :)

b2b

b2bonez

12-09-06, 03:18 PM

Talk about dragging boat anchors...

And once again I see that it's still six months into the future for BluRay's promises to materialize.

I you're content with the A1, I'm sure you can still find one at a good discount. If that's all you want out of HD then you have found your format. ;)

b2b

b2bonez

12-09-06, 03:21 PM

It's fine for my 1000 + customers. HD-A2 has been the second highest selling HD box that my company has sold in very high volume.

One sub $500 HD optical disc player is a lot better than zero. Where's BD's sub-$500 HD player?

-Robert

It's the one you're not selling... PS3 ($499).. ;)

b2b

g55555sim

12-09-06, 03:52 PM

With HD-DVD you have only three choices and one of them is $1000, one is the addon @ $199. That leaves the A2 @ 499. Is it fine that the entire world has one real HD-DVD player that's not $1000 dollars ??? ;)

b2b

actually HD DVD covers the whole of the budget demographic.

1. Budget market: Multifunction add that can be used with XBox 360 or PC (BUNDLED with KK and a universal remote) costing ONLY $1**. Great for those who would want to jump on to the hidef wagon or to taste what hidef is all about and critical consumers who would prefer to wait for cheaper standalone hidef players.

2. Intermediary market: The $3** Toshiba player (Which i am certain still have room for discount by retailers therefor the $3** thingy: VE is already throwing in 2 free HD DVD titles plus free courier shipping + another 3 HD DVD titles offered by the HD DVD promotional group) that produces stunning PQ and AQ that either beat or on par with competing format players at the price of $9**). Great for those who are ready for primetime hidef movie.

3. Luxury market: The $9** Toshiba players (Which i am certain still have room for discount by retailers therefor the $9** thingy). Great for those who can tell the world that they can afford to pay $9** for a dvd player :D .

WiFi-Spy

12-09-06, 03:53 PM

It's the one you're not selling... PS3 ($499).. ;)

b2b

Talk about walking into a joke... :)

b2bonez

12-09-06, 04:12 PM

Talk about walking into a joke... :)

I don't know... :confused: I just don't get it sometimes. The HD-DVD crowd started off with less technology to begin with and now is hell bent on painting themselves into a corner of a profitless business model with a cheering section egging them on.

And they wonder why the rest of the CE industry isn't jumping in on their trip to the poor house ?? Go figure... ;)

b2b

Talkstr8t

12-09-06, 04:49 PM

Fox had to re-do the BD-J for From Hell, slipping the title 3 months in the process. Why is that? And this may be a trick question, so answer carefully.First of all, I have no knowledge one way or another whether the title slip has anything to do with BD-J. Lots of titles on both formats slip all the time. But if it is BD-J related, why is this such a scarlet letter? There is a very rapid rate of learning underway in terms of techniques and tools for creating more compelling content. It's not as if "From Hell" is the most anticipated title in the pipeline; if it can be used to launch some new features by reworking certain aspects, why not? Also, new players are likely becoming available to developers for testing (Sharp and LG for starters, perhaps 2G models from others as well). This could also make a delay prudent in order to give developers or player manufacturers time to tweak code.
Well, I *guess* it could. If the BDP-S1 could support PiP. But it doesn't. Look closely at the words Sony used:

To enjoy the BD-J function in some discs, you may need to upgrade your player with the latest firmware. This update is anticipated to be released in 2007.

You don't have planned firmware updates in place *before* you launch a player if there's no problem. They *know* they have a problem with the BD-J stack.The A1 launched with a specific disclaimer that a future firmware upgrade would be required to enable internet-related features (which should have been required in all HD-DVD players). Clearly the A1 shipped non-compliant. We have no such evidence that the BDP-S1 is non-compliant. Change your emphasis of Sony's wording to read "To enjoy the BD-J function in some discs, you may need to upgrade your player with the latest firmware.", and you clearly see the possibility that this upgrade enables new features on upcoming discs. There's simply no evidence it is intended to fix existing known incompatibilities.
Why is it *so* hard for you to admit all is not perfect in BD-J Land? It's painfully obvious that BD-J is suffering the same growing pains as HDi; what's different though, is that HDi fixes happen tout de suite (thank you, MSFT), while we get vague "sometime in 2007" promises for fixes from core Blu-ray backers.What exactly do you think is broken? I've seen no indication that the BDP_S1 has difficulty with any existing BD-J titles, nor have I heard of problems from developers on unreleased titles. Alex, you've been an excellent source of information in these forums, but I don't understand why you are trying to paint a promised firmware upgrade as a sign of major trouble. Where is the evidence that there's a problem with the existing implementation?

I don't claim all is perfect in BD-J land. I'd love to see more tools lessening the requirement for Java programming knowledge. I'd love to see stricter performance requirements on players so studios would have more ability to know what a given player is capable of. I'd love to see BD-Live content rolled out. But I'm quite familiar with the dynamics driving the current environment, and while not as much progress has been made to date as I'd like, I see no obstacles preventing us from reaching the full capabilities of the platform as the format matures.

Talkstr8t

12-09-06, 04:51 PM

Are you Blu-ray advocates saying that it its probable that no Blu-ray player besides the PS3 will be on the market until the earliest June 2007 and maybe even December 2007?Who's saying that? In addition to the existing four standalones, we've got three more we know are highly likely to launch in the upcoming months (Pioneer, Sharp, LG), plus whatever 2G models or CES surprises might appear. Contrast this with the other format where there is still no one beyond Toshiba who has shown the slightest indication of launching a new player.

Talkstr8t

12-09-06, 04:55 PM

Why speculate talk. You should know. Tell us what exactly it supports and what it doesn't ....Even if I do know, what exactly would provide me the authority to pre-announce possible new features for Sony? I'm merely pointing out there is nothing in the wording of the firmware upgrade which in any way suggests something is "broken" about the existing implementation; the upgrade could well introduce new features.

Talkstr8t

12-09-06, 04:57 PM

So your saying the entire world is fine with having only $1000+ machines to choose from?The Samsung is widely-available for under $700, the Philips for under $900, and we have new machines yet-to-be released, including at least one from a typically entry-level manufacturer (LG). Further, there's simply nothing preventing the existing Blu-ray pricing from being dropped to whatever level deemed necessary to be competitive; it's not as if the A1 was sold for $499 because it was $500 cheaper to build than the Blu-ray players.

JonMarsh

12-09-06, 04:58 PM

Well right here on AVS you can see that 629 people have reported buying the addon. There is no way that you could say that isn't hurting the standalone player sales for Toshiba and reducing the interest in other companies building players (or USB PC drives too).

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/poll.php?do=showresults&pollid=4036

b2b

Maybe it doesn't occur to you that some will get both, targeted at different rooms, different users and playback experience.

Since you do have alternatives for HD-DVD in both game systems AND stand alone players at the same price point, the consumer does have alternatives.

And I'm not speculating about what people MIGHT buy (as many do around here), I'm talking about what I DID buy. And why.

So the flat panel family room display used for casual watching and gaming has the Xbox 360 with add-on, and the HT with NEC 10PG projector has the HD-XA1.

No cannabilization- just two alternatives.

mikemorel

12-09-06, 05:06 PM

First of all, I have no knowledge one way or another whether the title slip has anything to do with BD-J. Lots of titles on both formats slip all the time. But if it is BD-J related, why is this such a scarlet letter?Maybe because you have been running around for the last year saying "all is well". And if you do not have knowledge, then who does?

b2bonez

12-09-06, 05:17 PM

Maybe it doesn't occur to you that some will get both, targeted at different rooms, different users and playback experience.

Since you do have alternatives for HD-DVD in both game systems AND stand alone players at the same price point, the consumer does have alternatives.

And I'm not speculating about what people MIGHT buy (as many do around here), I'm talking about what I DID buy. And why.

So the flat panel family room display used for casual watching and gaming has the Xbox 360 with add-on, and the HT with NEC 10PG projector has the HD-XA1.

No cannabilization- just two alternatives.

In that same poll over 100 people reported owning both the addon and a standalone. Considering that the pricing for the addon and A1 were at cost or below, they are paying a heavy subsidy to get people to buy discs. I would assume you aren't buying 2 copies of every disc title you own are you ??

b2b

Kosty

12-09-06, 05:30 PM

In that same poll over 100 people reported owning both the addon and a standalone. Considering that the pricing for the addon and A1 were at cost or below, they are paying a heavy subsidy to get people to buy discs. I would assume you aren't buying 2 copies of every disc title you own are you ??

b2b So you care if Microsoft is subsidizing the HD DVD add on? Who cares, since they are now supposed to actually be making money on every Xbox 360. They can afford it. Better for the consumer too.

But since HP is now offering a HD DVD drive as a $100 option for their computers, I don't MS is losing much if any money anyway.

Kosty

12-09-06, 05:32 PM

In that same poll over 100 people reported owning both the addon and a standalone. Considering that the pricing for the addon and A1 were at cost or below, they are paying a heavy subsidy to get people to buy discs. I would assume you aren't buying 2 copies of every disc title you own are you ??

b2b I guess, if HD DVD supporters ever needed a excuse for low attach rates, they could always use that one.

But right now it seems that Blu-ray needs those excuses for low disc sales and poor attach rates more than HD DVD does. But you never know.

smithfarmer

12-09-06, 05:33 PM

How's the 360 doing compared to the PS2 in Europe? We know PS2 is still doing pretty damned good in North America... :eek:
Better than the PS3 is doing. ;)

b2bonez

12-09-06, 05:33 PM

So you care if Microsoft is subsidizing the HD DVD add on? Who cares, since they are now supposed to actually be making money on every Xbox 360. They can afford it. Better for the consumer too.

But since HP is now offering a HD DVD drive as a $100 option for their computers, I don't MS is losing much if any money anyway.

You must have missed the memo. The HP deal was a one day special. The price is $249 now..

b2b

g55555sim

12-09-06, 05:36 PM

The Samsung is widely-available for under $700, the Philips for under $900, and we have new machines yet-to-be released, including at least one from a typically entry-level manufacturer (LG). Further, there's simply nothing preventing the existing Blu-ray pricing from being dropped to whatever level deemed necessary to be competitive; it's not as if the A1 was sold for $499 because it was $500 cheaper to build than the Blu-ray players.

the fact is Toshiba (retailers) manage to sell their players at $499 (inclusive of free courier shipping, 2 free HD DVD titles (+3 more from the HD DVD promotional group) which basically make price of the player LESS than $400). BD players SIMPLY FAIL to compete with Toshiba in term of player price.

OR were you simply imferring that BD CEs are ripping consumers off? :p

Originally Posted by UxiSXRD
How's the 360 doing compared to the PS2 in Europe? We know PS2 is still doing pretty damned good in North America...

Better than the PS3 is doing.

PS2 doing better than XBox 360 is good news. It shows that cheaper in price will always sell better.

Kosty

12-09-06, 05:39 PM

You must have missed the memo. The HP deal was a one day special. The price is $249 now..

b2b You're right. You got me.

So the retail price of the drive is $50 more than what Microsoft is selling it for. I wonder what their cost is?

b2bonez

12-09-06, 05:40 PM

the fact is Toshiba (retailers) manage to sell their players at $499 (inclusive of free courier shipping, 2 free HD DVD titles (+3 more from the HD DVD promotional group) which basically make price of the player LESS than $400). BD players SIMPLY FAIL to compete with Toshiba in term of player price.

OR were you simply imferring that BD CEs are ripping consumers off? :p

So is the XA2 MSRP of $999 a ripoff too ??

b2b

b2bonez

12-09-06, 05:45 PM

You're right. You got me.

So the retail price of the drive is $50 more than what Microsoft is selling it for. I wonder what their cost is?

Somewhere between free and $320.00 dollars... :)
Buffalo's HDV-ROM2.4FB will have an estimated MSRP of 37,000 Yen or $320 USD.
http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=5243

b2b

Richard Paul

12-09-06, 06:36 PM

Hey Richard - I believe you thought BD would squash HD DVD by now, no?Well if you are referring to my prediction made early this year I said that most industry sources would consider Blu-ray to have won the format war by the summer of 2007. Granted my prediction may end up being wrong but don't we have to wait several more months to determine that? Also what does this even have to do with what I said to you?

why do I think HD DVD is still competing in the market? You must have read the press lately...Consumers love HD-DVD; it's inexpensive and high quality. Blu-ray, not so much.I was simply pointing out that HD DVD got some of its support from what was added to it (HDi and FGT) so it is rather hypocritical to attack Blu-ray for doing the same thing.

Take away Sony from BD and what would happen to BD? Hypothetical situations become meaningless when they are not grounded in reality.And that current reality I would point out is that Blu-ray has far greater CE/studio support than HD DVD and that universal players have not been shown, or priced, by any CE company yet.

I laud Sony for their efforts - they certainly are making a go at keeping the oligopoly together!For someone that lauds them you certainly have a funny way of phrasing it.

smithfarmer

12-09-06, 06:37 PM

With HD-DVD you have only three choices and one of them is $1000, one is the addon @ $199. That leaves the A2 @ 499. Is it fine that the entire world has one real HD-DVD player that's not $1000 dollars ??? ;)

b2b
At least HD DVD has a "real player" under a $1000 and it's priced @ $499. How many "real BD players" does the world have under a $1000?

And your point was?

Talkstr8t

12-09-06, 06:39 PM

Ask and ye shall receive...

We've put together a little commentary with some of the latest news links - on the PS3 launch and it's failure to reverse the HD DVD sales lead.

http://www.hdnowonline.com/News_and_links.html

It'll be hard reading for some...Hard in the sense that a site which purports to be "objective, open-minded", and not intended to "bash the competition" is clearly neither of these things. From the "selection" of Blu-ray reviews purely focused on those with sub-par picture quality, completely avoiding the many reviews which laud exemplary titles, to the incorrect and hopelessly biased commentary, this site is painful to read for anyone who might actually be looking for objective reasoning. Sadly, those who might benefit from such a site may well not recognize the dreck which is presented at "HDNowOnline".

To highlight a few of the poorly-supported claims and misinformation:

Some studios will have been quietly preparing their contingency plans in the event that Bluray did not make up the lost ground in the market. You have links liberally placed throughout your commentary in other areas. Why none which can provide even the slightest shred of evidence?

A quick check online at various sources can barely account for a few 10's of PS3s - certainly not 125,000 to 175,000.Huh?

it would appear that the PS3 is not going to have a significant "attach rate" for moviesBased on what? A majority of the PS3's would appear to be locked up for resale or under Christmas trees. Upon being opened many will be used primarily for games for a few weeks. Reasoned thought would demonstrate that the attach rate won't be evident until early in 2007.

And there were reported problems with the game console, as well as very poor, to middling or just mixed reviews.As well as a great number of stellar reviews (both as a game player and as a Blu-ray player), which you studiously avoid. A clear majority of reviews were positive, with any reservations related to availability of the player and the fact that developers haven't yet begun to tap the power of the hardware.

Worse yet - there are multiple reports surfacing that a "hack" weakness has been discovered in the PS3 that allows games, and also Bluray movies, to be copied to the harddrive. This may well be of great concern to content providers.This is the biggest non-issue. You can copy any Blu-ray or HD-DVD disc to your harddrive on any PC. Is this a hack? Of course not. There is no intended copy protection in the PS3 preventing copying the data. The copy protection is in the form of encrypted data coupled with a physical watermark on the disc. Nothing's been hacked, and the studios aren't in the slightest bit concerned because nothing's been compromised.

And the Xbox 360 HD DVD player has had very successful sales since its launch in November.Based on what? There hasn't been a single word from Microsoft suggesting the number which has been sold. It might number in the low thousands for all we know, and there is zero evidence to suggest it rivals the number of PS3's which have been sold.

And industry analysts have renewed their calls that the HD DVD format will be "victorious" over the Bluray format as a result.No, industry analyst. And he's clearly clueless, since he apparently thinks there could be 2M HD-DVD players in the market this year (including add-ons), a figure which every credible analyst knows is absurd since the blue laser supply can't even begin to satisfy that kind of demand today.

Hard to read? Yes, clearly. The painful arguments and non-existent logic highlighted there provide an experience not dissimilar from undergoing a root canal.

Talkstr8t

12-09-06, 06:46 PM

And if you do not have knowledge, then who does?Fox and any production companies involved with the title.

g55555sim

12-09-06, 06:47 PM

So is the XA2 MSRP of $999 a ripoff too ??

b2b

i bet there will OTHER (confirmed 3 free HD DVD titles) freebies offered when the player is available. and yes if consumers dont like the price of the XA2, they are free to opt for the $3** A2 :) .

anyhow i did not say player priced at $999 is a ripoff (why would i say that when that is the price of the XA2 :p ) . I asked if Talkst8 was making that inference.

btw- i'm touched you have not put me in your ignore list yet !! :D

What'sHD

12-09-06, 06:51 PM

We now have import units from HK available in Singapore.

None of them have the TN BD inside.

Does that mean more than 500K PS3s have been sold to retail or was the no. of BD-inclusive PS3s changed from 500K?

Richard Paul

12-09-06, 06:55 PM

Sorry, but the discs that don't work in players right now still belongs to Fox and Blu-ray.First off wasn't that only for one movie titles and for one particular player model? Also do you really expect that there won't be some discs errors for both formats as times goes on? Assuming of course that more companies than Toshiba start building HD DVD players.

Fox had to re-do the BD-J for From Hell, slipping the title 3 months in the process. Why is that? And this may be a trick question, so answer carefully.Alex, wouldn't it be easier just to tell us why From Hell was delayed?

Are you Blu-ray advocates saying that it its probable that no Blu-ray player besides the PS3 will be on the market until the earliest June 2007 and maybe even December 2007?Just curious but when did those who support Blu-ray become "you Blu-ray advocates"? Can't we all just remember that the vast majority of us are individual consumers supporting our preferred format for personal reasons?

Why speculate talk. You should know. Tell us what exactly it supports and what it doesn't ....nataraj, if somebody was to ask you something about Microsoft and expected you to both know and answer you would blast them away and yet you do this to Talkstr8t. Isn't that just a tad hypocritical?

Maybe because you have been running around for the last year saying "all is well". And if you do not have knowledge, then who does?Remember Mike that there was a lot of BS being posted about BD-J by certain posters some of whom even said that it was going to be optional for Blu-ray players. You didn't have to know much about BD-J to know that was wrong and it seems you are bitter at Talkstr8t for having spoken out against such posts.

PS2 doing better than XBox 360 is good news. It shows that cheaper in price will always sell better.If that was actually true shouldn't VMD win this format war than? Shouldn't Linux become the best selling OS? Shouldn't the Gamecube have won the last console war? My point is that history does not support that statement.

smithfarmer

12-09-06, 06:57 PM

tcrews

12-09-06, 07:07 PM

scaesare

12-09-06, 09:19 PM

Even if I do know, what exactly would provide me the authority to pre-announce possible new features for Sony? I'm merely pointing out there is nothing in the wording of the firmware upgrade which in any way suggests something is "broken" about the existing implementation; the upgrade could well introduce new features.

Where would thse features "come from". Are they additional features not part of the current spec? If so, will all players get them?

Are they features that are part of the current spec, but not implemented either correctly, or at all, in the current players?

Are they features from BD-J Live that are begin rolled out piecemeal? Is there any way to quantify what level of compliance between BD-J "basic" and Live a player would need to be at for a given title?

alfbinet

12-09-06, 09:46 PM

Sounds like you have selective reading my friend or are just forgetfull(I say this based on your posting history as I've seen you post in topics with positive Blu-ray or PS3 news). I'm not saying it is just you as there are plenty of other people who turn a blind eye to positive news, but it certainly isn't everybody ;)

Well, I am sure your reading is just as selective. How about some pro BD pieces for November and December. I think CES next month will ber VERY interesting.

2Channel

12-09-06, 11:08 PM

Hard in the sense that a site which purports to be "objective, open-minded", and not intended to "bash the competition" is clearly neither of these things. From the "selection" of Blu-ray reviews purely focused on those with sub-par picture quality, completely avoiding the many reviews which laud exemplary titles, to the incorrect and hopelessly biased commentary, this site is painful to read for anyone who might actually be looking for objective reasoning. Sadly, those who might benefit from such a site may well not recognize the dreck which is presented at "HDNowOnline".

I haven't read the whole site, so I don't know if they're unfairly biased. Your comments highlighted above did catch my attention though. Are you suggesting that 25% of the available BD titles have sub-par picture quality?

Richard Paul

12-09-06, 11:46 PM

Where would thse features "come from". Are they additional features not part of the current spec? If so, will all players get them?

Are they features that are part of the current spec, but not implemented either correctly, or at all, in the current players?What pessimism is it that drives you to ask such questions against Blu-ray? Also certain features of HDi required a firmware update for older HD DVD players so how can you treat Blu-ray and HD DVD so differently when it comes to firmware updates?

Are they features from BD-J Live that are begin rolled out piecemeal?There are three features required in the BD-Live profile and I am somewhat skeptical that you don't know that. Time and time again I see certain HD DVD supporters posting incorrect information about BD-Live even after being told what it requires. Also those same people tend to use the term BD-J Live to further add confusion about this issue.

To clarify this issue once again the fact of the matter is that BD-J is required in all Blu-ray players. On the other hand BD-Live is an optional profile that requires Blu-ray players to support PiP video, at least 1 GB of persistent memory, and internet connectivity.

Is there any way to quantify what level of compliance between BD-J "basic" and Live a player would need to be at for a given title?Yes, BD-Video is the only requirement needed for any Blu-ray title. Now in terms of special features it is a different matter such as whether you want PiP video, need large amounts of persistent storage, or require internet connectivity. To say though that BD-J is "basic" because of that is not only biased but also wrong.

I haven't read the whole site, so I don't know if they're unfairly biased. Your comments highlighted above did catch my attention though. Are you suggesting that 25% of the available BD titles have sub-par picture quality?Are you actually posting about that list of reviews (http://www.hdnowonline.com/Bluray_Reviews.html) without even reading it? Before attacking Talkstr8t with that 25% figure, which indicates that you did have time to count that list, how about we go over the reasons that list of reviews is not fair:
Most of the titles on that list are poorer/average looking titles.
The poorer looking titles sometimes have 2 or even 3 reviews on that list.
One of those reviews is for a title that wasn't even released on Blu-ray.
The reviews are carefully edited for maximum negativity.
Even good looking movies such as Eight Below and Dinosaur, which were well reviewed at several sites, are on that list because of careful searching for negative reviews of those titles.
That list is obviously biased in the selection of titles, the selection of reviews, and in the editing of those reviews.

2Channel

12-09-06, 11:47 PM

Here's a review comparing the Samsung, Panasonic and PS3 BD players.........and the winner is

Getting back to our trio of Blu-ray Disc players, my personal favorite was the PlayStation 3. This machine's picture and sound quality were nothing short of stunning, and its HDMI 1.3 connection and built-in Dolby TrueHD decoding give it a layer of future-proofing that the other players currently lack.

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/hd-dvd-bluray/1927/shootout-3-blu-ray-disc-players.html

Don't let it be said I've never posted anything nice about BD. You'll find lot's of nice BD comments in this article.

2Channel

12-09-06, 11:56 PM

Are you actually posting about that list of reviews (http://www.hdnowonline.com/Bluray_Reviews.html) without even reading it? Before attacking Talkstr8t with that 25% figure, which indicates that you did have time to count that list, how about we go over the reasons that list of reviews is not fair:
Most of the titles on that list are poorer/average looking titles.
The poorer looking titles sometimes have 2 or even 3 reviews on that list.
One of those reviews is for a title that wasn't even released on Blu-ray
The reviews are carefully edited for maximum negativity
Even good looking movies such as Eight Below and Dinosaur, which were well reviewed at several sites, are on that list because of careful searching for negative reviews of those titles.
That list is obviously biased in the selection of titles, the selection of reviews, and in the editing of those reviews.

Let's review what Talk said.....

From the "selection" of Blu-ray reviews purely focused on those with sub-par picture quality

I went and did a quick count (excluding double listed titles), did the math and found Talk's statement above odd. The point you are making above is different from what Talk said....and is more plausible.

DTV TiVo Dealer

12-09-06, 11:59 PM

2Channel, your headline is somewhat simular to the 1/08/06 CES session, which I am going to be one of the expert panelists. The exact title is Blu-ray vs. HD DVD and the winner is...

-Robert

scaesare

12-10-06, 12:19 AM

What pessimism is it that drives you to ask such questions against Blu-ray? Also certain features of HDi required a firmware update for older HD DVD players so how can you treat Blu-ray and HD DVD so differently when it comes to firmware updates?

First of all, why do you care? Second of all, I'm asking the question about the implementaions of BD-J thus far, I'm not blapsheming Blu-Ray and all that is Holy. Thirdly, Alex has a reputation for being pretty spot on, and Talk has a reputation for having significant insider knowledge about things BD-J'ish... I'd like to know what's going on here?? Fourth, why the fudge are you bringing HDi in to this?? I'm not claiming it didn't have issues either. Fifth, I'm just silly this way... I have a thing for fruitloops and runtime environments.

So, Your Persnickitiness, I'd like the witness to answer, if you please. Thanks oh so much!

There are three features required in the BD-Live profile and I am somewhat skeptical that you don't know that. Time and time again I see certain HD DVD supporters posting incorrect information about BD-Live even after being told what it requires. Also those same people tend to use the term BD-J Live to further add confusion about this issue.

To clarify this issue once again the fact of the matter is that BD-J is required in all Blu-ray players. On the other hand BD-Live is an optional profile that requires Blu-ray players to support PiP video, at least 1 GB of persistent memory, and internet connectivity.

Yes, BD-Video is the only requirement needed for any Blu-ray title. Now in terms of special features it is a different matter such as whether you want PiP video, need large amounts of persistent storage, or require internet connectivity. To say though that BD-J is "basic" because of that is not only biased but also wrong.

Great. Bravo. Richard, where should we send your prize for the first poster with his 1000th non-answer?

OK, so if:

1) All players released thus far must have BD-Video compliance

and...

2) There are players in the wild that must have BD-J firmware updates to play some titles

and....

3) Talk suggests these updates are adding features....

and... (this realliy is worth the wait... honestly...)

4) These titles are not claiming to need BD-Live, nor are the firmware updates advertised as supplying such....

THEN......................

WHAT ARE THESE FEATURES, AND WHERE ARE THEY COMING FROM??

I mean, let's say it is PiP as you suggest... how is this title labeled?

"Some content requres BD-Video + BD-PiP updates to function."

"The following firmware must be present for the interactive features of this disc to function: Sony BDP-1: 1.03, Pioneer BP-10:1.3; Samsung BD100: 1.0.3.4; Panasonic BD-Wow!: 2.01a, ..."*

"Spins the wheeldisc and takes yer chances!!"

[* Player model names made up because it's late and I don't feel like looking them up... please unwad your panties]

So what is it? Are these features that should have been in BD-Video all along in these players? Features are there , but are buggy and need to be fixed? Features from BD-Live?

Incidentally: the answers to none of those questions are an idictment of the format as far as I'm concerned. I mean really... this is all new.. it's software... and it's written by those pesky imperfect humans. Thanks the lord for flashram and field-updatable firmware!

And if it prevents you from replying to my post Richie here: I don't like the fact that HD DVD didn't have a clear 24p strategy from the get go. Happy?

Oh... and if my "-Basic", instead of "-Video", back there really confused anybody... please seek professional help. It's the result of my being lazy bastard and wanting to simply ask a question without wading thru a bazillion posts to find the profile name.

2Channel

12-10-06, 12:56 AM

2Channel, your headline is somewhat simular to the 1/08/06 CES session, which I am going to be one of the expert panelists. The exact title is Blu-ray vs. HD DVD and the winner is...

-Robert

Yes, I wonder if that was sitting in the back of my head as I wrote that. Speaking of your session, I'm going to be at CES on Monday when your panel is taking place.

I'm tempted to attend the session, but I'm not sure I'll hear anything I haven't already heard on this thread. What do you think? Is it going to be worth the extra money?

kdragon

12-10-06, 12:59 AM

My suggestion to scaesare: Ask this in the insiders thread.

My suggestion to Talkstr8t: Wait for this poster to ask his questions in the insiders thread. [personally, I don't understand the questions myself.]

There is a less chance of this getting personal in the insiders thread. How about that? Just my few cents.

2Channel

12-10-06, 01:52 AM

I don't know... :confused: I just don't get it sometimes. The HD-DVD crowd started off with less technology to begin with and now is hell bent on painting themselves into a corner of a profitless business model with a cheering section egging them on.

And they wonder why the rest of the CE industry isn't jumping in on their trip to the poor house ?? Go figure... ;)

b2b

I'm curious about this one b2b. This is the second time I've seen you bring up the issue of business model and profitability. I've commented before that subsidized players and driving prices down are a good thing (for both sides). Are you equally concerned about a subsidized PS3? My attitude is that it is up to the companies involved to work out there business models, strategies for subsidized players etc.

Much like DVD, volumes won't really take off until prices drop further, so why the big worry?

Off topic....have you picked out seeds for next year? If you don't mind I'll pm you to see what varietes you're planting.

Talkstr8t

12-10-06, 02:12 AM

Let's review what Talk said.....

From the "selection" of Blu-ray reviews purely focused on those with sub-par picture quality

I went and did a quick count (excluding double listed titles), did the math and found Talk's statement above odd. The point you are making above is different from what Talk said....and is more plausible.My point is none of the reviews are for titles which are widely known for exemplary picture quality. If this were unbiased, there would be a selection of view from across the spectrum. With this selection of unceasingly negative reviews, a misleading portrayal of what video quality can be expected is created.

Talkstr8t

12-10-06, 02:16 AM

OK, so if:

1) All players released thus far must have BD-Video compliance

and...

2) There are players in the wild that must have BD-J firmware updates to play some titles

and....

3) Talk suggests these updates are adding features....

and... (this realliy is worth the wait... honestly...)

4) These titles are not claiming to need BD-Live, nor are the firmware updates advertised as supplying such....

THEN......................

WHAT ARE THESE FEATURES, AND WHERE ARE THEY COMING FROM??There are two profiles, BD-Video and BD-Live. Within BD-Video there are a few features which are optional today but become mandatory for players initially released after June, 2007. PiP is probably the most significant of these features. Therefore, PiP support could, in theory, be provided by an upcoming firmware update, and would be required to support any titles making use of PiP. Firmware updates could also improve performance of the player, which might allow some content to run which otherwise wouldn't if it was authored to check the performance level of a given player before executing.

Richard Paul

12-10-06, 02:55 AM

First of all, why do you care?Because I support Blu-ray and I see it all to often get unfairly attacked.

So, Your Persnickitiness, I'd like the witness to answer, if you please. Thanks oh so much!
...
Great. Bravo. Richard, where should we send your prize for the first poster with his 1000th non-answer?Are you normally this pleasant in your posts?

WHAT ARE THESE FEATURES, AND WHERE ARE THEY COMING FROM??Well as already mentioned they could be for PiP, performance improvements, or maybe even something else. Also why are you so anxious to know what they are?

I mean, let's say it is PiP as you suggest... how is this title labeled?Well I never said it was PiP that might be added to the Sony Blu-ray player but if that is what it is I don't really know how it might be labelled. Also why do you think that titles with PiP would say anything about firmware updates?

"The following firmware must be present for the interactive features of this disc to function: Sony BDP-1: 1.03, Pioneer BP-10:1.3; Samsung BD100: 1.0.3.4; Panasonic BD-Wow!: 2.01a, ..."*

"Spins the wheeldisc and takes yer chances!!"I would point out that U-Control titles from Universal did not work on HD DVD players before the 2.0 firmware update. Did they label those titles with anything like what you posted?

And if it prevents you from replying to my post Richie here: I don't like the fact that HD DVD didn't have a clear 24p strategy from the get go. Happy?Well first off I prefer to be called Richard and what would really make me happy is if you learned that manners are important even on internet forums.

scaesare

12-10-06, 10:24 AM

Because I support Blu-ray and I see it all to often get unfairly attacked.

And I'm interested in affordable HD whatever the format, so if I ask a specific question regrding one of them, please do us all a favor and realize that a question does not equal an attack, OK?

Are you normally this pleasant in your posts?

No! But I'm glad you notice I'm trying! I'm usually grumpy and sarcastic when somebody, instead of addressing my question, pollutes the thread by dragging outher non-related issues in to the thread.

Well as already mentioned they could be for PiP, performance improvements, or maybe even something else. Also why are you so anxious to know what they are?

'Cause if I decide to purchase hardware and titles, I'd like to know what the implications mean. Do I need to look for a specific revision of frimware for a given player model? How will I know? Will all manufacturers promise to provide whatever it is (feature, fix, etc..) to their models?

Incidentally, do I have to clear my reasons for asking a valid question with you?

Well I never said it was PiP that might be added to the Sony Blu-ray player but if that is what it is I don't really know how it might be labelled. Also why do you think that titles with PiP would say anything about firmware updates?

This, Richard, is where wonder if you are doing this on purpose:

1) Title has feature "X"

2) Feature "X" may, or may not be part of BD-Video

3) Feature "X" therefore may or may not work on the player you have, based on it's firmware

4) Is there any way for the consumer to know this is the case for a given title prior tp spending his $$$?

I would point out that U-Control titles from Universal did not work on HD DVD players before the 2.0 firmware update. Did they label those titles with anything like what you posted?

You really can't help but turn a specific question into a format battle, can you? I choose not to.

Well first off I prefer to be called Richard and what would really make me happy is if you learned that manners are important even on internet forums.

Well if that's all it takes to make you HAPPY, then Richard it is!