HiDef DVD News VII - News Only : AND WE MEAN IT: NEWS ONLY

[Kosty]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kosty
Are you Blu-ray advocates saying that it its probable that no Blu-ray player besides the PS3 will be on the market until the earliest June 2007 and maybe even December 2007? Just curious but when did those who support Blu-ray become "you Blu-ray advocates"? Can't we all just remember that the vast majority of us are individual consumers supporting our preferred format for personal reasons?

Fair enough. I usually try not to place into categories, but that post was in response to b2bonez and Rob Zuber that were directly above that post, that were clearly pro Blu-ray.

I was directing the question to those two posters as my phrase " you Blu-ray advocates" seemed to fairly describe them in this context. It was just a mechanism to direct the comment at them. They were actively posting pro Blu-ray comments at the time and the phrase was not meant to be perjorative, only descriptive in nature.

I was just trying to get a confirmation that my post you referenced was a logical inference from this statement from B2.
Well the difference is $499 being the price for the PS3 leaves the BD standalones room to work with over the next year or so. Sigma is working with a bunch of CE companies with their SoC solution and my crystal ball sez that by the end of next year there will be a bunch of BD players in the MSRP range of $499-$999. Street prices should be even less...
Any guess about how many HD-DVD players you will see for $199.00 ???
b2b

[b2bonez]

Reports from the front lines with the A2...

A2 works a lot better than the A1 (note in passing... there seems to be a lot of people buying the A2 to replace the A1... )

A2 is also having problems playing some DVD discs. The unit is giving error code "6". Surprising that DVDs are causing problems.

Coax audio is missing.. only optical

And last but not least.... *GASP*... reports have it that a HDMI cable is not included in the box... (if this is wrong info please correct).

b2b

[ILJG]

Reports from the front lines with the A2...

A2 works a lot better than the A1 (note in passing... there seems to be a lot of people buying the A2 to replace the A1... )

A2 is also having problems playing some DVD discs. The unit is giving error code "6". Surprising that DVDs are causing problems.

Coax audio is missing.. only optical

And last but not least.... *GASP... reports have it that a HDMI cable is not included in the box... (if this is wrong info please correct).

b2b

Ah yes, reporting what others are experiencing. Your "strength." Not only is it useful, what would we possibly do without it? Read it for ourselves? :eek: Or, heaven forbid...actually buy the players and software and experience it ourselves?? :eek:

Oh wait...we are already doing those things. ;) But please, by all means, continue...there MUST be some kind of use for cut, paste, spin, repeat....right?

[Kosty]

Reports from the front lines with the A2...

A2 works a lot better than the A1 (note in passing... there seems to be a lot of people buying the A2 to replace the A1... )

A2 is also having problems playing some DVD discs. The unit is giving error code "6". Surprising that DVDs are causing problems.

Coax audio is missing.. only optical

And last but not least.... *GASP... reports have it that a HDMI cable is not included in the box... (if this is wrong info please correct).

b2b

Well, I am very satisfied with the HD XA1 and I am planning on buying a HD XA2 to replace it. I am sure I can find a good home for my HD XA1. I already have several people who are interested. In other words, I LIKED the HD XA1 so much that I am sold on HD DVD as a viable format and I don't mind spending additional money on it to get premium performance, as my past experience has convinced me that I will get value for my money. I will be upgrading as a satisfied customer wanting to get the best performance available.

The HDMI cable isn't as much of an issue with this unit as it is for the PS3 launch. Here the player is only going to be used to play HD movies. The issue of not including a HDMI cable with the PS3 was that it would discourage Blu-ray movie usage on that gaming console, piss off consumers, as they would feel that it was a rip off to not include them and it might lower the Blu-ray movie attach rate for the PS3.

I did appreciate the HDMI cables that came with my HD XA1 even though I didn't use them as they were too short for my setup.

A2 is also having problems playing some DVD discs. The unit is giving error code "6". Surprising that DVDs are causing problems. Very early to report. Kinda very exaggerating to say "DVD's' are causing problems.

[b2bonez]

But please, by all means, continue...there MUST be some kind of use for cut, paste, spin, repeat....right?

I kinda like this one... ;)
Blu-Ray can only get better. HD-DVD can't.

b2b

[Kosty]

Ah yes, reporting what others are experiencing. Your "strength." Not only is it useful, what would we possibly do without it? Read it for ourselves? :eek: Or, heaven forbid...actually buy the players and software and experience it ourselves?? :eek:

Oh wait...we are already doing those things. ;) But please, by all means, continue...there MUST be some kind of use for cut, paste, spin, repeat....right? By the way, it seems that several posters have not actually bought a HD player in either format yet and are still advising us without practical knowledge.

Kinda hurts their credibility.

[ILJG]

So have you got your A2 yet ?? People are saying it's lots better than the A1... (if you don't mind giving up the analog outs) :)


I guess they were wrong and the A2 proves it..

b2b

Yup, I swore I wouldn't get another player until 1080p/24, but I broke down and bought the A2 yesterday. Still playing with it, hope to post later on it.

Which player(s) do you have, again?

[Eternal_Sunshine]

Yeah, that one is quite hilarious, isn't it?

You know what's really hilarious? That you and some others think that spending 500 $ on a HD-DVD player magically makes you an Hi-Def expert while waiting for more/better software/hardware means you shouldn't be allowed to participate in the debate...

Remember: attack the posts, not the poster (for not owning a HD player yet).

[Paul_Seng]

You know what's really hilarious? That you and some others think that spending 500 $ on a HD-DVD player magically makes you an Hi-Def expert while waiting for more/better software/hardware means you shouldn't be allowed to participate in the debate...

Remember: attack the posts, not the poster (for not owning a HD player yet).
So what's wrong with people actually buying a product and using it on a day to day basis before making claims about a particular technology? There are a bunch of owners here that have both blu ray and HD DVD and I would take them more seriously as they are speaking from day to day experience with both formats. Yet some here still have a deaf ear without owning either format.

I think the point being made here is that both formats are available. There's no reason to wait (unless there's an inherent problem with the technology that still needs to be worked out). If you really on a particular side by vehemently arguing for it and against it's competition then it would be advantageous to actually have a player and go by personal experience.

[b2bonez]

Yup, I swore I wouldn't get another player until 1080p/24, but I broke down and bought the A2 yesterday. Still playing with it, hope to post later on it.

Which player(s) do you have, again?

I'm sorry, if you are so wrapped up in being a "good soldier" for HD-DVD in this fabricated "war" and are paying large sums of money to beta test for Toshiba, you don't grasp the idea of researching products before you buy them.

"Experience keeps a dear school, but fools will learn in no other.." B. Franklin

Please ponder that quotation and get back to me when the light bulb goes on... :)

b2b

[UxiSXRD]

That goes both ways. Any of you obstinate HD-DVD-only partisans think owning the players are necessary to draw an informed decision on the formats, you had better have Blu-ray players, as well, (for logical consistency, if nothing else), if you're going espouse the superiority of the format on the basis of that argument.

Obviously, owning and using a player is incidental as numerous other factors come into play (proper calibration, quality of the individual source on disc, idiosyncracies of specific equipment, etc).

There is always an objective conclusion drawn by a display of the two, as well. I, for example, attended a meet at a local AVS Member's theater where we observed a face-off between the two formats on a reference quality system (ISF calibrated Qualia 004 project to 133" screen, Pioneer Elite 7.1, acoustically prepared dedicated theater room, Tosh HD-DVD and Panny Blu-ray, etc) and just about all of us in attendance concluded the same thing: neither format has an inherent PQ or AQ advantage over the other. It comes down to individual masters and even video codec didn't show a subtantive difference. The only quantifiable difference between the two formats is studio support, though if you are a true videophile you just can't take partake in format partisanship unless you're going to settle for standard definition from certain studio(s). Blu-ray simply has outstanding PQ titles that an HD-DVD partisan cannot and will not be able to enjoy for the forseeable future, and it's the same for a Blu-ray partisan.

FWIW, I own the 360 HD-DVD add-on and will be getting a PS3 as soon as I can find one. Though I do admire certain aspects of the XA1, I always had doubts as to whether the quirks justified even the dropping price.

[Paul_Seng]

UxiSXRD, I agree 100% about movies released on both formats (don't know about blu ray only as I haven't seen one and I wouldn't remember how great the PQ was when I did see it in the theater).
I have been going to my local BB hoping to walk in on a new shipment of PS3's (won't pay over $600 for just a STB), with no luck. Although, if anybody has noticed, I have not posted any negative things about the quality of Blu Ray, just that there is more to a technology than specs.

And to just comment on the Xa1, I have had the A1 since the beginning and I have only had one problem with viewing movies and it turned out to be the HDMI cable, so the only quirk I can attest to is the slow booting time. I also have the add-on and it works fine also.
I am now waiting on the Xa2 for it's alleged "true" 1080P/24 output before I buy another HD DVD player.

[b2bonez]

That goes both ways. Any of you obstinate HD-DVD-only partisans think owning the players are necessary to draw an informed decision on the formats, you had better have Blu-ray players, as well, (for logical consistency, if nothing else), if you're going espouse the superiority of the format on the basis of that argument.

Obviously, owning and using a player is incidental as numerous other factors come into play (proper calibration, quality of the individual source on disc, idiosyncracies of specific equipment, etc).

There is always an objective conclusion drawn by a display of the two, as well. I, for example, attended a meet at a local AVS Member's theater where we observed a face-off between the two formats on a reference quality system (ISF calibrated Qualia 004 project to 133" screen, Pioneer Elite 7.1, acoustically prepared dedicated theater room, Tosh HD-DVD and Panny Blu-ray, etc) and just about all of us in attendance concluded the same thing: neither format has an inherent PQ or AQ advantage over the other. It comes down to individual masters and even video codec didn't show a subtantive difference. The only quantifiable difference between the two formats is studio support, though if you are a true videophile you just can't take partake in format partisanship unless you're going to settle for standard definition from certain studio(s). Blu-ray simply has outstanding PQ titles that an HD-DVD partisan cannot and will not be able to enjoy for the forseeable future, and it's the same for a Blu-ray partisan.

FWIW, I own the 360 HD-DVD add-on and will be getting a PS3 as soon as I can find one. Though I do admire certain aspects of the XA1, I always had doubts as to whether the quirks justified even the dropping price.

That's an interesting observation... and one that puts everything into true perspective, the real product is the movies, not the HW. As much a people think they have a choice about what format "wins", that is an illusion. The studios will decide who wins and it is the studios that are the object of all of the marketing that is going on.

All of us here on AVS are just pawns being used to further the product plans and goals of a lot of CE companies (plus one very well monied SW company ;) ).

We have no choice but to "buy" or not to "buy". Do with or do without.. I choose to "do without" until the studios get serious with compelling new content (and release schedules) enough to make "buying" a real value to me. YMMV... :)

But in the meantime, BD is the superior optical disc format and hope the studios choose wisely.. :D

b2b

[ILJG]

I'm sorry, if you are so wrapped up in being a "good soldier" for HD-DVD in this fabricated "war" and are paying large sums of money to beta test for Toshiba, you don't grasp the idea of researching products before you buy them.


Large sums? I bought both players for less than the original price of the Samsung, and current price of the Sony, Panasonic and Pioneer. PS3's not an option for me since I'm not a gamer and I won't put a game console in my rack. Even if I did, it's hardly easy to get one of those now, anyway, even if I were interested.

It's obnoxious, presumptuous, insulting, rude, and downright incorrect for you to insinuate that HD-DVD supporters like me didn't research the products before we bought them. Not that it's different than your sadly usual behavior, here, but you should know that early adopters know the risks even when they feel they've done all the research they possibly can. I could be equally as obnoxious and say you shouldn't equate your nonstop regurgitating of the same spin over...and over...and over with "research," but I wouldn't stoop to that level and make such a presumption, that's your style, obviously. ;)

While the A1 is slow, I didn't feel like a guinea pig or a Beta tester at all. The PQ and AQ it produces are stellar. I've had a few hiccups (brief video freeze) after FW2, but guess what, I'd get hiccups even on my OPPO, and every other SD DVD player I've had, usually disc related. And getting the IME and TrueHD on a gen1 player is worth it, especially at that price point. I've had my A2 a very short time, and have had NO similar hiccups whatsoever in its short tenure.



"Experience keeps a dear school, but fools will learn in no other.." B. Franklin

Please ponder that quotation and get back to me when the light bulb goes on... :)



That's great, Sparky, but this is an A/V forum. You know, audio and video quality. While we're all interested in the guts of what delivers the audio and video to us, it's the end result that counts. While you can cut, paste, spin and repeat everyone else's experiences, until YOU are seeing and hearing, FIRST HAND, the PQ/AQ being produced by these things for many hours and weeks and months, like the rest of us who actually own and use this stuff, your incessant marketing and cheerleading is worth jack.

Ponder that and ... oh never mind, if you haven't realised that simple concept by now, you certainly won't anytime soon. ;)

[Kosty]

That goes both ways. Any of you obstinate HD-DVD-only partisans think owning the players are necessary to draw an informed decision on the formats, you had better have Blu-ray players, as well, (for logical consistency, if nothing else), if you're going espouse the superiority of the format on the basis of that argument.

Obviously, owning and using a player is incidental as numerous other factors come into play (proper calibration, quality of the individual source on disc, idiosyncracies of specific equipment, etc).

There is always an objective conclusion drawn by a display of the two, as well. I, for example, attended a meet at a local AVS Member's theater where we observed a face-off between the two formats on a reference quality system (ISF calibrated Qualia 004 project to 133" screen, Pioneer Elite 7.1, acoustically prepared dedicated theater room, Tosh HD-DVD and Panny Blu-ray, etc) and just about all of us in attendance concluded the same thing: neither format has an inherent PQ or AQ advantage over the other. It comes down to individual masters and even video codec didn't show a subtantive difference. The only quantifiable difference between the two formats is studio support, though if you are a true videophile you just can't take partake in format partisanship unless you're going to settle for standard definition from certain studio(s). Blu-ray simply has outstanding PQ titles that an HD-DVD partisan cannot and will not be able to enjoy for the forseeable future, and it's the same for a Blu-ray partisan.

FWIW, I own the 360 HD-DVD add-on and will be getting a PS3 as soon as I can find one. Though I do admire certain aspects of the XA1, I always had doubts as to whether the quirks justified even the dropping price. I think the major issue is someone who doesn't own a particular machine constantly telling everyone how crappy the experience is even when countless other people who actually have experience with it patiently try to explain to him why his postings are not accurate.

Its not required to have a HD player to have a valid opinion or contribution, and I absolutely understand why many have not bought a Blu-ray player yet because of their cost and the lack of availability of the PS3. I understand people waiting until the 2nd generation HD DVD players to hit the street. But soon, if you don't own one, its gonna be kinda hard to find an excuse why you didn't spend a bit to experience the HD quality that you imply you care so much about.

But its also a valid point to make, that lack of actual day to day experience in either formats performance can affect your credibility especially if its done consistently in a distorted manner and contrary to the experience of others that actually own the device.

At the very least, it does go to the question of credibility.

If you are a very vocal partisan here and haven't spent $499 or less to get practical experience in HD movie playback, one does have to question your motivations.

I see most of the HD DVD backers as at least having practical experience. And many others on both sides, even if we don't own a Blu-ray player, have seen them a lot in other demos and trade shows. But most of us in that situation, don't talk trash about something we don't have a lot of practical experience on. We qualify our observations and refer to the experiences of others.

After the PS3 and the HD A2 becomes readily available, I'll find it weird if some of the more prominent posters here don't invest in their credibility and buy one and gain practical experience so they actually know what they are talking about.

I mean if your posting hundreds of post here and won't spend $400-$500 to get great HD quality, then how can you be serious about the enjoyment of HD movies?

[DTV TiVo Dealer]

Reports from the front lines with the A2...

And last but not least.... *GASP*... reports have it that a HDMI cable is not included in the box... (if this is wrong info please correct).

b2b

I thought Toshiba was using the same HDMI- HDMI cable that Panasonic puts in their $1300 player? (If this is wrong info please correct.)

-Robert

[AV Doogie]

Reports from the front lines with the A2...

A2 works a lot better than the A1 (note in passing... there seems to be a lot of people buying the A2 to replace the A1... )
Sounds like people were impressed enough with the A1 to warrant purchasing a faster player (same cost as original unit, not bad huh?)

A2 is also having problems playing some DVD discs. The unit is giving error code "6". Surprising that DVDs are causing problems.
I have not heard of any problems, but I am sure that a software update will fix this problem soon.

Coax audio is missing.. only optical
Not a big deal if most are updating to HDMI anyway!

And last but not least.... *GASP*... reports have it that a HDMI cable is not included in the box... (if this is wrong info please correct).
I guess the subsidy is over ;)
b2b

.

[roma_victor]

I think the major issue is someone who doesn't own a particular machine constantly telling everyone how crappy the experience is even when countless other people who actually have experience with it patiently try to explain to him why his postings are not accurate.

Its not required to have a HD player to have a valid opinion or contribution, and I absolutely understand why many have not bought a Blu-ray player yet because of their cost and the lack of availability of the PS3. I understand people waiting until the 2nd generation HD DVD players to hit the street. But soon, if you don't own one, its gonna be kinda hard to find an excuse why you didn't spend a bit to experience the HD quality that you imply you care so much about.

But its also a valid point to make, that lack of actual day to day experience in either formats performance can affect your credibility especially if its done consistently in a distorted manner and contrary to the experience of others that actually own the device.

At the very least, it does go to the question of credibility.

If you are a very vocal partisan here and haven't spent $499 or less to get practical experience in HD movie playback, one does have to question your motivations.

I see most of the HD DVD backers as at least having practical experience. And many others on both sides, even if we don't own a Blu-ray player, have seen them a lot in other demos and trade shows. But most of us in that situation, don't talk trash about something we don't have a lot of practical experience on. We qualify our observations and refer to the experiences of others.

After the PS3 and the HD A2 becomes readily available, I'll find it weird if some of the more prominent posters here don't invest in their credibility and buy one and gain practical experience so they actually know what they are talking about.

I mean if your posting hundreds of post here and won't spend $400-$500 to get great HD quality, then how can you be serious about the enjoyment of HD movies?

Hear, hear. While I strongly believe that anyone is entitled to post his/her opinions and thoughts with or without any practical experience with either format, what I find amazing is that some of the most ardent supporters of BD (and most frequent posters) on this forum do not have a BD player.

It is hard to understand how someone who does not own a particular product or have any financial or personal stake in the format war would take such a strong interest in defending/praising the product and crtiticizing the competition. To each his/her own, I guess.

[markrubin]

the HDMI cable is available from Monoprice for under $10.00

[ILJG]

I think the major issue is someone who doesn't own a particular machine constantly telling everyone how crappy the experience is even when countless other people who actually have experience with it patiently try to explain to him why his postings are not accurate.

Its not required to have a HD player to have a valid opinion or contribution, and I absolutely understand why many have not bought a Blu-ray player yet because of their cost and the lack of availability of the PS3. I understand people waiting until the 2nd generation HD DVD players to hit the street. But soon, if you don't own one, its gonna be kinda hard to find an excuse why you didn't spend a bit to experience the HD quality that you imply you care so much about.

But its also a valid point to make, that lack of actual day to day experience in either formats performance can affect your credibility especially if its done consistently in a distorted manner and contrary to the experience of others that actually own the device.

At the very least, it does go to the question of credibility.

If you are a very vocal partisan here and haven't spent $499 or less to get practical experience in HD movie playback, one does have to question your motivations.

I see most of the HD DVD backers as at least having practical experience. And many others on both sides, even if we don't own a Blu-ray player, have seen them a lot in other demos and trade shows. But most of us in that situation, don't talk trash about something we don't have a lot of practical experience on. We qualify our observations and refer to the experiences of others.

After the PS3 and the HD A2 becomes readily available, I'll find it weird if some of the more prominent posters here don't invest in their credibility and buy one and gain practical experience so they actually know what they are talking about.

I mean if your posting hundreds of post here and won't spend $400-$500 to get great HD quality, then how can you be serious about the enjoyment of HD movies?

Amen!! Even more mind-boggling, why would you go to a forum that's going to be heavily visited by A/V early adopters on the cutting edge, when the forum itself is obviously dedicated to the cutting edge...and then proceed to insult those who actually adopt early?

[wco81]

the HDMI cable is available from Monoprice for under $10.00

Does it have to be a certain gauge?

Or does it need to be dual link?

[nataraj]

There are two profiles, BD-Video and BD-Live. Within BD-Video there are a few features which are optional today but become mandatory for players initially released after June, 2007.

Essentially BD-J is very confusing and less than half baked. The players you buy today will not support bd-j features in movies of tomorrow ....

[nataraj]

Even if I do know, what exactly would provide me the authority to pre-announce possible new features for Sony? I'm merely pointing out there is nothing in the wording of the firmware upgrade which in any way suggests something is "broken" about the existing implementation; the upgrade could well introduce new features.

There is nothing to preannouce. What features of BD-J does the sany player support (we will know what it doesn't from there) ...

Talk, somehow you are always long on generalities and zero on specifics :rolleyes:

[g55555sim]

I'm sorry, if you are so wrapped up in being a "good soldier" for HD-DVD in this fabricated "war" and are paying large sums of money to beta test for Toshiba, you don't grasp the idea of researching products before you buy them.

b2b

what was the hit by Alanis Morrisette again .. hmmmmm ... oh wait ... i remember ... its Ironic ! :D

[roma_victor]

The HD-DVD crowd started off with less technology to begin with and now is hell bent on painting themselves into a corner of a profitless business model with a cheering section egging them on.

And they wonder why the rest of the CE industry isn't jumping in on their trip to the poor house ?? Go figure... ;)

b2b

For the hundredth time, PLEASE stop asserting this as fact without any support.

As seen here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=752933&page=12&pp=30

you already conceded that you have no factual support that the A2 is subsidized i.e. "profitless" and that any speculation that it is subsidized is just that - mere speculation.
Fast forward a few weeks and you are posting the same unsupported speculation as fact.
I know your response will be that "profitless business model" and "trip to the poor house" does not necessarily mean subsidized players, but the implication of your post was clear.

[PSound]

Amen!! Even more mind-boggling, why would you go to a forum that's going to be heavily visited by A/V early adopters on the cutting edge, when the forum itself is obviously dedicated to the cutting edge...and then proceed to insult those who actually adopt early?
This is actually very relevant, for a couple of reasons. It seems to me that those who have purchased some sort of player are here because they are truly interested in experiencing the next gen. Those who have not are more interested in starting flame wars, etc. If you take a look, those who do not own any hardware are often involved in the discussions that get personal and/or go down some sort of rathole.

Perhaps it would be beneficial to create a sub-forum for people who do not own any next gen hardware to discuss the formats and not allow them to post in the general forums. That way people who are actually interested in experiencing the next gen formats can have real discussions with less flame wars, etc. and those who do not own the formats still have a place to go to research and discuss the formats.

[DTV TiVo Dealer]

Yes, I wonder if that was sitting in the back of my head as I wrote that. Speaking of your session, I'm going to be at CES on Monday when your panel is taking place.

I'm tempted to attend the session, but I'm not sure I'll here anything I haven't already heard on this thread. What do you think? Is it going to be worth the extra money?

Not sure as CES will not give me a list of questions so I do not know what to expect. However, I was on the speakers board at the last Home Media Retailer DVD conference earlier this year in Los Angeles and a lot came out of that panel discussion. I continually brought up the damage ICT will bring to the marketplace by pointing out the hundreds of millions of consumers that do not have HDMI HDCP compliant HDTVs. I also encouraged Sony to use more advanced codec.

This conference session will be more focused on the current and predicted outcome of BD vs. HD DVD.

Steve Nickerson, SVP, Warner was also on the last panel of experts with me and we have both been selected to be on the board for this one. I share the expert speaker panel with Mr. Andy Parsons, SVP Pioneer and Chairman of the USA promotion Committee for the BD Disc association and Mr. Ben Keen, Chief Analyst , Screen Digest. Mr. Paul Sweeting, from Variety is the moderator.

I love these sessions as they bring out the decision makers to participate as panel experts themselves and for many more to be in the live audience to hear first hand many things they woulld not normally learn in their day in and day out work days. Those who do not attend the session will be reading about the discussions in the trade publications.

-Robert

[markrubin]

Does it have to be a certain gauge?

Or does it need to be dual link?

for a short run (under 6 feet) no worry

dual link refers to DVI cables: HDMI cables are all the same

I try to stay away from the heavier guage HDMI cables for short runs: the ferrite cores get too heavy

monoprice also sells a 6 inch HDMI strain relief cable that is helpful to connect a heavy HDMI cable to a component without adding stress to the connection

[g55555sim]

Not sure as CES will not give me a list of questions so I do not know what to expect. However, I was on the speakers board at the last Home Media Retailer DVD conference earlier this year in Los Angeles and a lot came out of that panel discussion. I continually brought up the damage ICT will bring to the marketplace by pointing out the hundreds of millions of consumers that do not have HDMI HDCP compliant HDTVs. I also encouraged Sony to use more advanced codec.

This conference session will be more focused on the current and predicted outcome of BD vs. HD DVD.

Steve Nickerson, SVP, Warner was also on the last panel of experts with me and we have both been selected to be on the board for this one. I share the expert speaker panel with Mr. Andy Parsons, SVP Pioneer and Chairman of the USA promotion Committee for the BD Disc association and Mr. Ben Keen, Chief Analyst , Screen Digest. Mr. Paul Sweeting, from Variety is the moderator.

I love these sessions as they bring out the decision makers to participate as panel experts themselves and for many more to be in the live audience to hear first hand many things they woulld not normally learn in their day in and day out work days. Those who do not attend the session will be reading about the discussions in the trade publications.

-Robert

will we get the chance to read the transcript or video recording maybe ?

[DTV TiVo Dealer]

^^ CES does not permit video recordings. My daughter had her digital camcorder at the last conference and recorded both of my sessions.

The only reporting I know of will be my own accounting and if any member(s) attend and post information as well as the trade publications reports.

The CES may sell DVD's of the event and I'll find out and let you know.

-Robert

[wco81]

This is actually very relevant, for a couple of reasons. It seems to me that those who have purchased some sort of player are here because they are truly interested in experiencing the next gen.

Well we have dozens of impressions threads, even whole forums devoted to discussions of specific products.

This thread is a news thread, not just reporting news but discussion of news, implications of news.

Anyways, people who've invested may have more firsthand experience but you could turn it around and question whether they're still objective. As we've seen, some people get invested not just financially but emotionally in products. Maybe they no longer have the critical distance you sometimes need for rational discussion.

Both of these formats, but especially HD-DVD with fewer HW vendor and studio support, have long odds against them. So it's a perfectly valid decision to wait to see how things develop, especially since each new hardware released in the market seems to offer more features, better value.

It's been barely 6 months since the first hardware was released. And that's already been replaced by something ostensibly better. What is wrong with waiting?

When I start watching Blu-Ray movies on my PS3, I will post about it in another thread, another sub-forum. I have no specific plans to get HD-DVD but nobody is going to browbeat me from commenting on it here.

[2Channel]

That's an interesting observation... and one that puts everything into true perspective, the real product is the movies, not the HW. As much a people think they have a choice about what format "wins", that is an illusion. The studios will decide who wins and it is the studios that are the object of all of the marketing that is going on.

All of us here on AVS are just pawns being used to further the product plans and goals of a lot of CE companies (plus one very well monied SW company ;) ).

We have no choice but to "buy" or not to "buy". Do with or do without.. I choose to "do without" until the studios get serious with compelling new content (and release schedules) enough to make "buying" a real value to me. YMMV... :)

But in the meantime, BD is the superior optical disc format and hope the studios choose wisely.. :D

b2b

I don't feel this way personally. If I did I wouldn't post. But seeing as you do feel like a pawn that is being used, why do you post?

As for your analysis above, I feel that you're partially correct. The CE's have to sell in two directions, to the studios and to the consumer. The CE's have the least power in this equation as they are dependent on the support of both the studios and consumers. To the studios they can offer IP royalties from their format, to the consumer they can offer subsidized players and discs.

Studios are the second most powerful, unless they choose to act in unison behind one format. This brings some risk of government investigation though (look at the EU snooping around BD). The studios have power by providing or not providing content in a given format. They can also choose to subsidize their discs or offer hybrid functionality at no added cost (assuming the format supports it).

Assuming the studios are not unified behind a single format, the consumer is the most powerful. The consumer votes with his or her dollar on players and movies, and both the CEs and studios can't ignore the consumer market trends. A studio may choose to stay loyal to a particular format if they are looking at a potential IP royalty stream, but if the format is showing to be a failure in the market place they will cut their losses and move on.

[wco81]

for a short run (under 6 feet) no worry

dual link refers to DVI cables: HDMI cables are all the same

I try to stay away from the heavier guage HDMI cables for short runs: the ferrite cores get too heavy

monoprice also sells a 6 inch HDMI strain relief cable that is helpful to connect a heavy HDMI cable to a component without adding stress to the connection

I would be getting a HDMI to DVI.

[b2bonez]

Amen!! Even more mind-boggling, why would you go to a forum that's going to be heavily visited by A/V early adopters on the cutting edge, when the forum itself is obviously dedicated to the cutting edge...and then proceed to insult those who actually adopt early?


Ahh ohh... I feel a quote coming on..... ;)
It's like arguing with a scientologist (only without the space aliens)- if you criticize they attack. Then the plethora of other MS minions run out to throw dirt clods around.

Phew... feel better now... :)

b2b

[Ken H]

Phew... feel better now... :)

b2bDon't.

[b2bonez]

I don't feel this way personally. If I did I wouldn't post. But seeing as you do feel like a pawn that is being used, why do you post?

Well there is a lot to be learned from some very smart technical people (in between all the "war" shouting) and also to let the industry know that everyone they seek as potential customers aren't idiots. The industry types lurk here and every chance I get, it just gives me a little hoot to thumb my nose at them. :) (That is not aimed at the neutral insiders that seek only to inform (Kjack.. Tom M. etc..).)

It also kind of fun to participate in a pseudo "religious war" without the real religion.. ;)

BD forever !.. death to the infidel HD-DVD !! Amen Brother !!! :D :D

b2b

[Kolgar]

Perhaps it would be beneficial to create a sub-forum for people who do not own any next gen hardware to discuss the formats and not allow them to post in the general forums. That way people who are actually interested in experiencing the next gen formats can have real discussions with less flame wars, etc. and those who do not own the formats still have a place to go to research and discuss the formats.

I agree. I've been "challenged" by certain people on the BD side (who have NOT purchased a player), but when I've responded with a well-thought-out argument, it has gone unanswered.

It all amounts to irritating "noise" that drastically reduces the value and validity of conversation on this forum.

[Kosty]

The only quantifiable difference between the two formats is studio support, though if you are a true videophile you just can't take partake in format partisanship unless you're going to settle for standard definition from certain studio(s). Blu-ray simply has outstanding PQ titles that an HD-DVD partisan cannot and will not be able to enjoy for the forseeable future, and it's the same for a Blu-ray partisan. Well paying twice the price for the same or less performance is an quantifiable difference.

Thats one of the major advantages of HD DVD, its projected lower cost. As long as that's true, its a lesser risk to jump into HD DVD than Blu-ray, even more so when the lower priced HD DVD players superbly upconvert standard DVD's to near HD quality, and the lowest priced Blu-ray option for the foreseeable future, the PS3, does not. That also is a quantifiable difference.

Once more than a couple hundred titles are available in both formats the lack of content becomes less and less of a factor. There's a critical mass issue here, where enough content to play initially to enjoy the player is reached.

In regards to studio support, HD DVD buyers have at least the advantage of superb upconversion available with the lowest priced players. That handicaps the PS3 acceptance as a movie player as HD upconversion cannot be used as a rationale to upgrade to it as a standalone HD player.

[b2bonez]

Originally Posted by PSound
Perhaps it would be beneficial to create a sub-forum for people who do not own any next gen hardware to discuss the formats and not allow them to post in the general forums. That way people who are actually interested in experiencing the next gen formats can have real discussions with less flame wars, etc. and those who do not own the formats still have a place to go to research and discuss the formats.
I agree. I've been "challenged" by certain people on the BD side (who have NOT purchased a player), but when I've responded with a well-thought-out argument, it has gone unanswered.

It all amounts to irritating "noise" that drastically reduces the value and validity of conversation on this forum.

Well there are four forums for exactly that right here on AVS. The HD-DVD & Blu-Ray HW & SW forums. Problem is that no respect is given to thread crapping by the "other side".

b2b

[Kosty]

Well we have dozens of impressions threads, even whole forums devoted to discussions of specific products.

This thread is a news thread, not just reporting news but discussion of news, implications of news.

Anyways, people who've invested may have more firsthand experience but you could turn it around and question whether they're still objective. As we've seen, some people get invested not just financially but emotionally in products. Maybe they no longer have the critical distance you sometimes need for rational discussion.

Both of these formats, but especially HD-DVD with fewer HW vendor and studio support, have long odds against them. So it's a perfectly valid decision to wait to see how things develop, especially since each new hardware released in the market seems to offer more features, better value.

It's been barely 6 months since the first hardware was released. And that's already been replaced by something ostensibly better. What is wrong with waiting?

When I start watching Blu-Ray movies on my PS3, I will post about it in another thread, another sub-forum. I have no specific plans to get HD-DVD but nobody is going to browbeat me from commenting on it here. I certainly agree that this thread is different and that no ownership restrictions should apply for posting.

Posters develop their own credibility, actually buying and enjoying something you've been talking about for years is just one factor to consider.

I think that comments and analysis critical of each format is the purpose of the forum, and perfectly appropriate, no matter what format you own. If your interested in HD movies your contributions are certainly welcome.

News is certainly worthy of comment, speculative thoughts and analysis that impact both formats can be identified by anyone. I'm interested in Blu-ray issues, even though I own only an HD DVD player now. I may own Blu-ray someday, and Blu-ray's performance and sales now affect the HD DVD format.

But we all know when some have gone over the edge into plain silliness or even worse.

[Kosty]

Well there are four forums for exactly that right here on AVS. The HD-DVD & Blu-Ray HW & SW forums. Problem is that no respect is given to thread crapping by the "other side".

b2b I don't think its a much an issue with the posts as with the posters. Critical comments should be made and talked about in those forums.

And ownership or the "side" you tend toward is not an issue if your comment is reasonable and not meant to be trollish or argumentative for argumentative purposes only.

Specific issues and their impact are appropriate to be discussed in those areas regardless if you own that player type or not.

I think that a lot of the problem is some immature behavior and some people both "threadcrapping " on one side and others too easily offended by critical comments, observations or bad news.

But on the whole, I see the current situation here at AVS pretty good, and I appreciate the comments of most posters even when I disagree with their logic.

[2Channel]

I agree. I've been "challenged" by certain people on the BD side (who have NOT purchased a player), but when I've responded with a well-thought-out argument, it has gone unanswered.

It all amounts to irritating "noise" that drastically reduces the value and validity of conversation on this forum.

I've enjoyed your posts Kolgar, you've added some interesting ideas to the mix. Don't worry about the bashing that flares up from time to time, it's just part of this particular stew. The news items of significance are few and far between so there tends to be a lot more debate going on in the mean time.

[Richard Paul]

And I'm interested in affordable HD whatever the format, so if I ask a specific question regrding one of them, please do us all a favor and realize that a question does not equal an attack, OK?Sure, but your questions towards Blu-ray seem far more negative than they have to be simply to gain information. Also you already got the answers (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9127518&&#post9127518) to most of your original questions from what I can see.


'Cause if I decide to purchase hardware and titles, I'd like to know what the implications mean. Do I need to look for a specific revision of frimware for a given player model?Which is why I brought up the issue of U-Control titles since they required a firmware update to work properly. Believe it or not it was just the best example I could think of at the moment and it is likely that firmware updates will be needed for both formats as time goes on.


This, Richard, is where wonder if you are doing this on purpose:

1) Title has feature "X"

2) Feature "X" may, or may not be part of BD-Video

3) Feature "X" therefore may or may not work on the player you have, based on it's firmware

4) Is there any way for the consumer to know this is the case for a given title prior tp spending his $$$?As far as I know none of the U-Control titles on HD DVD indicated that they needed a firmware update besides the typical warning about using the latest firmware update available. As such it is logical to assume that this will be the policy for most titles released on either HD format.

Now as for the BD-Live features it depends on what your player supports as to whether those particular features will work. Honestly it should be simple to determine that based on what your player is capable of since PiP will require PiP decoding, downloading movie trailers will require a large amount of persistent storage, and internet features would require internet connectivity.


You really can't help but turn a specific question into a format battle, can you? I choose not to.As you told me in the same post a question is not necessarily an attack on a format and I was trying to answer your question. Instead of attacking me read what I post and you will see that I am simply trying to answer your remaining questions.

[Issac Hunt]

Essentially BD-J is very confusing and less than half baked. The players you buy today will not support bd-j features in movies of tomorrow ....
Would that be the official Microsoft view of Sun's product? (kisses) :)

[Brian Miller]

Talk, somehow you are always long on generalities and zero on specifics :rolleyes:Well, Bill does work in Marketing after all! :)

[Richard Paul]

Essentially BD-J is very confusing and less than half baked. The players you buy today will not support bd-j features in movies of tomorrow ....nataraj, you know quite well the differences between BD-Live and BD-Video at this point and your attempts to confuse this issue are obvious. There are only three added features in BD-Live so excuse me if I find the idea of it being very confusing to be very laughable. Also you are very quick to attack BD-Live when its requirements in terms of PiP and persistent storage are even higher than what is required in HD DVD. Why don't you ever bother to mention that?


Talk, somehow you are always long on generalities and zero on specifics :rolleyes:nataraj, that is a pretty hypocritical statement to make considering you never once said the same thing about Amir even when he said things just as vaguely as what Talkstr8t said in that post.


Don't.Are we supposed to ignore the fact that certain Microsoft employees are attacking BD-J on a regular basis? Also nataraj has recently been on the warpath against Talkstr8t as seen in this post (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9122815&&#post9122815) from yesterday. Isn't there a forum rule against rude behavior?

[b2bonez]

Oh gosh ! Look who is getting linked off of the "Look and Sound of Perfect" propaganda site..

Guess Who !! None other than our pal... or should I say "their pal" Robbie Enderle.. Gee my nose for planted articles is getting pretty good... :)

From your HD-DVD friends at TGDaily

http://www.tgdaily.com/2006/11/29/enderle_on_christmas_trends/

b2b

[DTV TiVo Dealer]

Well, Bill does work in Marketing after all! :)

Who's Bill?

-Robert

[Kosty]

We considering the article was from a prominent respected industry analyst who was earlier predicting an easy Blu-ray victory and has now changed his mind and is now predicting HD DVD success because of a new factor he didn't consider (the Xbox 360 HD DVD movie player bundle) , I would link to it too if I was in charge of the HD DVD promotional site. :D

Its an representative article that effectively highlights the trend in recent press coverage.

[Kosty]

Who's Bill?

-Robert Bill aka Talkstr8t. (Blu-ray insider)

Amirm keeps calling him Bill, although I don't know if Talk has actually publicly acknowlged it, he has answered to that name.

[b2bonez]

We considering the article was from a prominent respected industry analyst who was earlier predicting an easy Blu-ray victory and has now changed his mind and is now predicting HD DVD success because of a new factor he didn't consider (the Xbox 360 HD DVD movie player bundle) , I would link to it too if I was in charge of the HD DVD promotional site. :D

Its an representative article that effectively highlights the trend in recent press coverage.

I wonder how "respected" Robbie would be if he put a "disclosure" in his by line the he is president of a company that has Toshiba listed as a client ??

b2b

[Talkstr8t]

Talk, somehow you are always long on generalities and zero on specificsI am often very specific. However, when appropriate (due to NDA's or other information for which it is not my place to announce) I'll attempt to provide some insight within the bounds of ethical business behavior. Sorry if that doesn't always meet your demand for information...

[wco81]

What are you going to think of Enderle if he flip-flops again?

[Talkstr8t]

I share the expert speaker panel with Mr. Andy Parsons, SVP Pioneer and Chairman of the USA promotion Committee for the BD Disc association and Mr. Ben Keen, Chief Analyst , Screen Digest. Mr. Paul Sweeting, from Variety is the moderator. Robert, are you on the panel specifically to represent HD-DVD, or as a retailer without a specific format bias?

[Talkstr8t]

There are only three added features in BD-LivePiP is not a BD-Live feature; it's required in all BD players released after June 2007.

[wco81]

a retailer without a specific format bias?

That ship sailed a LONNNG time ago. ;)

[Kosty]

I am often very specific. However, when appropriate (due to NDA's or other information for which it is not my place to announce) I'll attempt to provide some insight within the bounds of ethical business behavior. Sorry if that doesn't always meet your demand for information... I think Talk is very specific when he can be. His posting here are clearly handicapped by NDAs.

I'm glad he and the other insiders are here. :)

[PSound]

PiP is not a BD-Live feature; it's required in all BD players released after June 2007.
So based on these recent discussions (and obvious confusion), is there any plan for Blu-Ray to provide some education to the consumer explaining which features are supported by which players?

Perhaps a matrix of released movies and hardware with a checklist of which features will work on which players?

[DTV TiVo Dealer]

Talk, I believe I may have been selected because of my previous expert panel position at the Home Media Retailer DVD conference earlier this year where I asked some very hard questions and discussed several sensitive issues. I may have also been chosen because of my extremely high volume of HD DVD player sales and good volume of BD player sales.

My threads and posts on avs and other forums have also drawn attention to my opinions.

Officially, I am strictly an independent volume retailer of both formats.

Are you attending the Blu-ray vs. HD DVD and the winner is... session?

-Robert

[b2bonez]

We considering the article was from a prominent respected industry analyst who was earlier predicting an easy Blu-ray victory and has now changed his mind and is now predicting HD DVD success because of a new factor he didn't consider (the Xbox 360 HD DVD movie player bundle) , I would link to it too if I was in charge of the HD DVD promotional site. :D

Its an representative article that effectively highlights the trend in recent press coverage.

Seems this is not the first time for Robbie...
Sun zinged by rent-a-quote analyst

Imagine our surprise when The Economist - possibly the most respected magazine on the planet by business types - closed out an evisceration of Sun Microsystems by turning to a consultant who gets paid by most of Sun's major competitors.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/04/07/sun_enderele/

b2b

[b2bonez]

What are you going to think of Enderle if he flip-flops again?

Hired gun going to the highest bidder... I have little use for "paid consultants" in Journalists clothing..

b2b

[Michael Mullis]

Hired gun going to the highest bidder... I have little use for "paid consultants" in Journalists clothing..

Until he says Blu-ray is better, then he'll magically gain back all the credibility you say he doesn't have. ;)

[b2bonez]

Until he says Blu-ray is better, then he'll magically gain back all the credibility you say he doesn't have. ;)

Nope not really.. Pundits are like brother-in-laws... They like to come over to your house and tell you everything that is wrong with everything, but if you ask them to help you out, then they suddenly disappear with pressing engagements... ;)

b2b

[Kosty]

Seems this is not the first time for Robbie...

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/04/07/sun_enderele/

b2b Actually that article sounds like someone else who has sour grapes because they don't like what he says.

That writer criticises The Economist for taking his input because he's on advisory councils to other technology companies, who by the way compete with themselves as well as Sun. Just because he is saying critical things people don't like to hear he doesn't sound like he's necessarily shilling for a paycheck.

[scaesare]

Sure, but your questions towards Blu-ray seem far more negative than they have to be simply to gain information. Also you already got the answers (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9127518&&#post9127518) to most of your original questions from what I can see.


No, I post to challange information that's inconsistent with what a person has said. Talk maintains there could be new features in the updates. I challange to determine how we would know what the dependancy is from a title perspective.

If they ain't features, but fixes, then he should state that. In so doing, he'll need to acknowledge Alex is correct regarding the "compliance" issue.

And no, he didn't answer the question. Neither have you.


Which is why I brought up the issue of U-Control titles since they required a firmware update to work properly. Believe it or not it was just the best example I could think of at the moment and it is likely that firmware updates will be needed for both formats as time goes on.


So, from your standpoint, the updates must be fixes, not feature additions as Talk said may be the case? If they are fixes, does that mean the earlier versions of BD-J were non-compliant?


As far as I know none of the U-Control titles on HD DVD indicated that they needed a firmware update besides the typical warning about using the latest firmware update available. As such it is logical to assume that this will be the policy for most titles released on either HD format.


To add features to the BD-J subsystem, or to fix non-compliance?

Now as for the BD-Live features it depends on what your player supports as to whether those particular features will work. Honestly it should be simple to determine that based on what your player is capable of since PiP will require PiP decoding, downloading movie trailers will require a large amount of persistent storage, and internet features would require internet connectivity.

So how will Joe6P know what his player hardware is capable of, what features he has in his formware, and what a title will need? Wil there be a compatability matrix? Standard labeling? If a specific firmware revision is necessary, are the firmware revs for all player manufacturers going to stay in sync, or would there be specific labeling for each player make/model?


As you told me in the same post a question is not necessarily an attack on a format and I was trying to answer your question. Instead of attacking me read what I post and you will see that I am simply trying to answer your remaining questions.

I saw no answers. I saw "But this was the case with HD DVD as well...". OK, so they have issues also. I want to clearly understand what the issues may be, regardless of format.

[Richard Paul]

PiP is not a BD-Live feature; it's required in all BD players released after June 2007.Well I remember you saying a while ago that PiP was required after a certain date next year but I remember you also used to say that it was a feature of the BD-Live profile. Just to clarify this but did they change it from a feature of BD-Live to a feature that is required in all Blu-ray players after that date?

[nataraj]

Also nataraj has recently been on the warpath against Talkstr8t as seen in this post (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9122815&&#post9122815) from yesterday. Isn't there a forum rule against rude behavior?

If that is rude posting all of you guys should have been suspended long time back.

Afterall you have been calling me names - along with your long lost pal palladin for over a year. You don't even have the civility to apologize ... sheesh. :rolleyes:

Last time you started calling me names - I clearly told you not to talk about me - and I won't respond to your posts. Let us keep it that way - this thread is not meant as a vehicle for your all too obvious hatred for Microsoft.

[b2bonez]

Actually that article sounds like someone else who has sour grapes because they don't like what he says.

That writer criticises The Economist for taking his input because he's on advisory councils to other technology companies, who by the way compete with themselves as well as Sun. Just because he is saying critical things people don't like to hear he doesn't sound like he's necessarily shilling for a paycheck.

Maybe he just likes to be the "grim reaper" of technology - quote from 2004..
http://www.macobserver.com/columns/thebackpage/2004/20040607b.shtml
You knew it was coming: Rob Enderle has let ring his 5th Apple Death Knell in just the last few years. Today's entry in the Apple Death Knell Counter comes in part 5 in the heads up debate between Mr. Enderle and myself in MacNewsWorld's Death Match. This cements Mr. Enderle's lead in the Apple Death Knell Counter; with1/8 of the entries we have chronicled so far, no one else comes even close. As I noted in the ADKC itself, however, there are additional Death Knells from even the last few months that I have not yet entered, but I am betting Mr. Enderle maintains his lead for some time to come.

From 2006...
http://www.economist.com/business/displaystory.cfm?story_id=6768230
Rob Enderle, who runs an eponymous technology consultancy, says that Sun is “like a soccer team that suddenly shows up in the Super Bowl against an [American] football team.” Mr McNealy's slogans are usually right. The network really is becoming the computer. An age of participation may indeed be dawning. The trouble is that Sun, the company, may not be there to witness it.

And a few opinions about Robbie from way back in the Giga days... 2002
http://essaysfromexodus.scripting.com/stories/storyReader$1541
What they're saying about Rob Enderle
Thu, Feb 28, 2002; by Dave Winer.

I finally got so bored with the news I actually had something to say about Rob Enderle. If you want to get on the record about him, send me an email and I'll try to oblige.

Michael Williams: "That guy has always struck me as all hat and no cattle. Drives me nuts to see him quoted as an 'expert.' I'd be shocked if he's ever installed anything more than Windows on a laptop or written any code other than pseudo in an e-mail."

John Robb: "The guy is a carpetbagger quotemill of the worst sort. Nobody ever called him on it until today."

Joe Rotello: "Why don't we just replace him with a large switch marked OFF, and be done with it."


b2b

[Richard Paul]

No, I post to challange information that's inconsistent with what a person has said. Talk maintains there could be new features in the updates. I challange to determine how we would know what the dependancy is from a title perspective.Honestly speaking you are still confused on this issue? Okay, here is a post (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8025284&&#post8025284) that Talkstr8t once made to explain this issue.


If they ain't features, but fixes, then he should state that. In so doing, he'll need to acknowledge Alex is correct regarding the "compliance" issue.Why is it important to you to get him to acknowledge that there might be firmware fixes released for BD-J?


So, from your standpoint, the updates must be fixes, not feature additions as Talk said may be the case? If they are fixes, does that mean the earlier versions of BD-J were non-compliant?Well I don't know whether such features for the Sony player will be for PiP, performance improvements, fixes, or something else. Also if they are fixes that would indicate that the initial version of BD-J was non-compliant, but that would simply put BD-J in the same boat as HDi.


To add features to the BD-J subsystem, or to fix non-compliance?Just to repeat this but U-Control titles were on HD DVD and not Blu-ray. Also my point was that I believe most titles for both formats will just carry a general warning about needing the latest firmware update for the player.


So how will Joe6P know what his player hardware is capable of, what features he has in his formware, and what a title will need? Wil there be a compatability matrix? Standard labeling? If a specific firmware revision is necessary, are the firmware revs for all player manufacturers going to stay in sync, or would there be specific labeling for each player make/model?Well first off all I can do is point at what has been done with HD DVD titles that needed a firmware update to work and note that they didn't list anything about specific models or firmware numbers. As such I assume that Blu-ray titles won't do that either. Also by the time the average consumer starts buying into either HD format the issue of firmware updates will probably be over.


I saw no answers.I gave you information on what I think is likely and what has been done with HD DVD titles that needed a firmware update to work. If you don't believe those are answers than honestly speaking you will have to wait and see how things go next year.

[Richard Paul]

If that is rude posting all of you guys should have been suspended long time back.Come now instead of admitting you went to far going after Talkstr8t you are going to attack me instead?


Afterall you have been calling me names - along with your long lost pal palladin for over a year. You don't even have the civility to apologize ... sheesh. :rolleyes:No offense but if you are going to attack me at least have the nerve to do so without bringing other people into it since I am not going to play the game of defending every post ever made by every Blu-ray supporter. Also I remember plenty of times you called me names but I honestly don't remember any time I called you names. As such I don't really see what you are seeking an apology for in terms of that. Now if you are asking about an apology for my suspicions regarding why you post here to be blunt at the moment that is not going to happen. Your constant attacks against everything related to Blu-ray have done nothing to dispell my suspicions.


Last time you started calling me names - I clearly told you not to talk about me - and I won't respond to your posts. Let us keep it that way - this thread is not meant as a vehicle for your all too obvious hatred for Microsoft.nataraj, I don't know what kind of game you are playing but I don't remember calling you names. Also every time you feel insulted you automatically call me a Microsoft hater when you clearly know that is BS.

[Kosty]

Maybe he just likes to be the "grim reaper" of technology - quote from 2004..
http://www.macobserver.com/columns/thebackpage/2004/20040607b.shtml
From 2006...
http://www.economist.com/business/displaystory.cfm?story_id=6768230

And a few opinions about Robbie from way back in the Giga days... 2002
http://essaysfromexodus.scripting.com/stories/storyReader$1541

b2b Ok, I'm impressed.

He does actually seem to be like the quote mill that tech writers turn to when they need a money quote. He also doesn't seem to be afraid to go out on a limb. Throw enough predictions out I guess and some come true and on the way you offend some egos in the technology sector.

He very well might be just like an economist who has predicted sucessfully all five of the last two recessions. I don't know enough about him to defend him based on the information B2 has just presented, so I'll just let this issue lie....

[What'sHD]

A personal request to Richard :) Please consider taking it to PM

If an "argumentative" post is made on the forum publicly, I think its fair that the response should also be on-forum, but perhaps, future discussions can be done via PM. thanks

P.S. It's dashed hard to "ignore" someone's posts if they keep getting quoted. AVS should look into blanking quotes of ignored posts.

[Richard Paul]

A personal request to Richard :) Please consider taking it to PM

If an "argumentative" post is made on the forum publicly, I think its fair that the response should also be on-forum, but perhaps, future discussions can be done via PM. thanksSure, and if nataraj is willing I wouldn't mind continuing to discuss this issue via PM.

[kevinca1]

Reopened, Please follow forum rules.

[2Channel]

Maybe he just likes to be the "grim reaper" of technology - quote from 2004..
http://www.macobserver.com/columns/thebackpage/2004/20040607b.shtml

From 2006...
http://www.economist.com/business/displaystory.cfm?story_id=6768230

And a few opinions about Robbie from way back in the Giga days... 2002
http://essaysfromexodus.scripting.com/stories/storyReader$1541

b2b

There are a number of very opinionated columnists in the business. They tend to make in your face statements because it gets them quoted, gets their articles passed around, etc. In other words it's good for business.

Then there are the sort who avoid taking sides, making predictions, etc. They serve a more purely journalistic function. Regardless, I get that people are upset that he's changed his mind and are now crying foul. Writers who are in your face with predictions will always make some people upset, while pleasing others.

I went back to read Rob's original 6/7/04 article. This was the conclusion.

In the end, Linux represents a threat and an opportunity for every software and hardware company. Apple is once again at the crossroads. While it will take a couple of years before we know whether the company will make the right choice, one thing is clear: Apple's path is about to become vastly more interesting.

There are a few things in his article (from over 2 years ago) that I don't agree with. Most of his assertions I do agree with. The rest of the articles about Rob Enderle are written by people upset with his comments/predictions. Not surprising, but does it proove anything?

I want to leave everyone with one additional thought on this subject. There is no one who is truly neutral, unless they're uninformed on the subject. That goes for journalists, commentators, consumers, insiders, etc. Everyone has a bias on issues. Some people try hard not to let their bias show, others choose to voice their bias for everyone to hear. Do the research, listen to all sides....come to your own conclusions. :)

[thomopolis]

Talk, I believe I may have been selected because of my previous expert panel position at the Home Media Retailer DVD conference earlier this year where I asked some very hard questions and discussed several sensitive issues. I may have also been chosen because of my extremely high volume of HD DVD player sales and good volume of BD player sales.

My threads and posts on avs and other forums have also drawn attention to my opinions.

Officially, I am strictly an independent volume retailer of both formats.

Are you attending the Blu-ray vs. HD DVD and the winner is... session?

-Robert

Hey Robert,

Any idea why Toshiba or maybe MS isn't having anyone on the panel? I'm actually surprised Amir isn't going to be there considering the HD Addon, VC-1, iHD and all.

I attended the session back in January '99 that pitted DVD and Divx. It was rather interesting and entertaining to have Warren Lieberfarb and Richard Sharp
on the same stage sparring - along with the head of Best Buy, a few other pundits, and tech reporters.

It doesn't seem like it will be a truly point/counter point without one of the heads of HD-DVD there to throw some barbs.

[Talkstr8t]

So based on these recent discussions (and obvious confusion), is there any plan for Blu-Ray to provide some education to the consumer explaining which features are supported by which players?I don't formally speak for the BDA. I'd suggest asking at the official Blu-ray blog (http://blogs.zdnet.com/blu-ray/?p=4).

[Talkstr8t]

Are you attending the Blu-ray vs. HD DVD and the winner is... session?I'd definitely like to, but my CES schedule is always very chaotic and I end up missing many sessions I'd like to attend. Monday at noon? I'll certainly try.

[Talkstr8t]

Well I remember you saying a while ago that PiP was required after a certain date next year but I remember you also used to say that it was a feature of the BD-Live profile. Just to clarify this but did they change it from a feature of BD-Live to a feature that is required in all Blu-ray players after that date?It is required in all players conformant to the BD-Live profile (regardless of release date), and in all Blu-ray players released after June 2007.

[thomopolis]

No trying to pour gasoline on anything, but I figured this is the thread to ask this;

Has there been some word of HD-DVD releases slowing down in the new year?

Another thread had a link to high Def Digest release pages and there was 9 for HD-DVD and 39 for BluRay in the months of January and February.

That's quite a difference as these toys are ramping up. So are there some that aren't listed here, or does HD-DVD typically not announce this far in advance?

http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/releasedates.html
http://hddvd.highdefdigest.com/releasedates.html



Full disclosure, if I can't find a PS3 by February (other than Ebay - I hate scalpers)I will probably break down and get a sony or pioneer for the 24P. Can't do without Princess Bride.

So if BD dies, I will have to eat a player.

[Talkstr8t]

So, from your standpoint, the updates must be fixes, not feature additions as Talk said may be the case? If they are fixes, does that mean the earlier versions of BD-J were non-compliant?A firmware upgrade fix doesn't imply non-compliance. Non-compliance means a player failed a test suite. A fix means a bug was found. Test suites aren't perfect, so there will likely always be bugs found even when a player passes the test suite (bugs typically result in new tests being added so that future players will have a more robust test suite). Further, a fix could mean improving performance such that some content runs when it might not have previously. Test suites generally don't factor in performance, so it's certainly possible content will be written which fails on a fully-compliant player.

- Talk

[2Channel]

I don't formally speak for the BDA. I'd suggest asking at the official Blu-ray blog (http://blogs.zdnet.com/blu-ray/?p=4).

Interesting post from Andy Parsons of Pioneer that I found from that link.

http://talkback.zdnet.com/5208-12688-0.html?forumID=1&threadID=27654&messageID=519971

Let's say, for the sake of argument, that one third of the six million units that Sony has said they hope to sell by April '07 will also used to play BD movies on a regular basis. This amounts to two million more BD players in homes on top of all the players sold by other consumer electronics companies, all in just a few short months..........

............And I think one third is conservative -- if the percentage of PS3 consoles used as BD players is higher than one third, this will create even more immediate demand for content.

So it looks like Andy Parsons is hoping that Sony can ship 6 million PS3s by the end of March or start of April as Sony has previously promissed. He's also hoping for at least 33% of those customers to turn into movie buying BD fans. I think he's overly optimistic, and will be disapointed on both points. Time will tell.

[b2bonez]

OT (sorta) ""Long Tail" phenomenon has long legs"

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20061211/tc_nm/longtail_dc_2

I'll let you read the article, but I think it demonstrates that unless the studios don't move new releases on HD to precede their release on DVD all they are doing is just creating another "long tail" niche that really won't interest the average consumer.

I saw "Dead Man's Chest" at the movies, twice on DVD and right now you couldn't get me to sit through it again (even on HD) unless you gave me a free disc and use of a player to watch it on.

Big Macs and fries don't get better the third time around just because of fancy china and shiny silverware..

b2b

[2Channel]

OT (sorta) ""Long Tail" phenomenon has long legs"

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20061211/tc_nm/longtail_dc_2

I'll let you read the article, but I think it demonstrates that unless the studios don't move new releases on HD to precede their release on DVD all they are doing is just creating another "long tail" niche that really won't interest the average consumer.

I saw "Dead Man's Chest" at the movies, twice on DVD and right now you couldn't get me to sit through it again (even on HD) unless you gave me a free disc and use of a player to watch it on.

Big Macs and fries don't get better the third time around just because of fancy china and shiny silverware..

b2b

What I found really interesting was the book co-written by Ben McConnell, "Citizen Marketers." (mentioned in passing in the above article)

...........In their provocative new book, Citizen Marketers, Ben McConnell and Jackie Huba explore the ramifications of today's burgeoning social media. As everyday people increasingly create content on behalf of companies, brands, or products—to which they have no official connection—they are turning traditional notions of media upside down. Collaborating with others just like themselves, they are forming ever-growing communities of enthusiasts and evangelists using videos, photos, songs, and animations, as well as the "user-generated media" of blogs, online bulletin boards, and podcasts. From the rough to the sophisticated, their creations are influencing companies' customer relationships, product design, and marketing campaigns—whether the companies participate willingly or not.

Now that looks like an interesting read.

[Grubert]

Sony Blu-ray Recorder Hit Shops in Japan (http://www.cdrinfo.com/Sections/News/Details.aspx?NewsId=19239)

Sony's BDZ-V9 is equipped with a 500GB hard disk drive and supports recording of digital broadcastings to the HDD and single-layer BD-R/RE and of course, play-back of BD video. Price is about 300,000 yen ($2,600).

[TomsHT]

PiP is not a BD-Live feature; it's required in all BD players released after June 2007.

Talk, can you explain what this means to any BR players purchased before June 2007? Will they be updated or just not able to function on any titles that use BD-Live?

[hawkeye3.1]

I saw "Dead Man's Chest" at the movies, twice on DVD and right now you couldn't get me to sit through it again (even on HD) unless you gave me a free disc and use of a player to watch it on.

Couldn't agree more and my hats off to you for sitting through it that many times. I might consider listening to parts of it with my eyes closed if it is given a lossless soundtrack on HD as I did enjoy the score.

[Grubert]

This might have been posted during the weekend:

'Live' interactivity still no-show for Blu-ray (http://www.videobusiness.com/article/CA6398543.html)

[TomsHT]

This might have been posted during the weekend:

'Live' interactivity still no-show for Blu-ray (http://www.videobusiness.com/article/CA6398543.html)

Quote from the artile:


“It will add to the attraction of Blu-ray and keep the ball rolling with the hype,” said Clayton Biele, Fox IT operations manager. “By holiday season of 2007, Blu-ray will be in full force.”

By that time, it’s probable that some Blu-ray manufacturers will roll out BD Live-enabled, next-generation stand-alone players. Additional PS3s should be released into the market through the upcoming holidays.


Sounds like its still at least a year off before it even begins using this

[scaesare]

Honestly speaking you are still confused on this issue? Okay, here is a post (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8025284&&#post8025284) that Talkstr8t once made to explain this issue.

Thanks Richard, I knew the issue had been raised in the past.

In that post, Talk says: "Content requiring one or more of those capabilities on a BD-Video player without support for that capability will either provide a suitable error message, provide reduced capability, or not be available, depending on how the content developer chooses to author the content."

If the update from Sony is providing some of this additional capability, as Talk suggests it might, then it implies that there might be additional capability this player now has. That means it now exists in the Netherworls between BD-Video, and BD-Live. And, I've seen nothing to indicate that existing players will have to upgrade their capability to the same standard that all players sold by June '07 will have.

So, what capability does this player now have, and which of the content scenarios that T alk outlined will take place for which titles? And how will I know this if I want to spend my money on a player or title?


Why is it important to you to get him to acknowledge that there might be firmware fixes released for BD-J?

For the same reason it was important for me to understand which firmware revisions for the Toshiba HD DVD player provided fixes for some titles and might provide additional capability (audio codecs).

So far Talk has maintained that there are no BD-J compliancy issues, whereas Alex has provided evidence there may be. I'd like to know if there are compliance issues in a player before I buy it. From any manufacturer. Perhaps now this player is preferred over the Panasonic? But I don't know...


Well I don't know whether such features for the Sony player will be for PiP, performance improvements, fixes, or something else. Also if they are fixes that would indicate that the initial version of BD-J was non-compliant, but that would simply put BD-J in the same boat as HDi.

Fine, put it in the same boat. As I've already mentioned, Richard, I don't expect that there won't be updates. I want to know what they are for. If they are fixes, then so be it (Alex was right). If they are feature addtions, then what are they?, as we are now in a gray area where there are going to be title dependancies on non-mandatory features, and we have no gurantees from CE manufacturers that they will all support newer features until BD-Live is mandatory on all decks.

Does this mean that I might get a title that plays with all features on a Sony and Pioneer, and not on a Panasonic or Samsung? What if I get another title that only works with all features on the PS3? Does this mean that I have to:

- Buy mutliple players

or

- Wait and not buy until BD-Live is mandatory?

or

- Buy a player and hope the vendor will update with features between now and when new capability is mandatory?

or

- Forego some capability on some title, hoping there is labeling that will tell me which features will work where?


Just to repeat this but U-Control titles were on HD DVD and not Blu-ray. Also my point was that I believe most titles for both formats will just carry a general warning about needing the latest firmware update for the player.

So the latest firmware from all vendors is guranteed to supply all additional capability that every title needs?


Well first off all I can do is point at what has been done with HD DVD titles that needed a firmware update to work and note that they didn't list anything about specific models or firmware numbers. As such I assume that Blu-ray titles won't do that either. Also by the time the average consumer starts buying into either HD format the issue of firmware updates will probably be over.

The key difference is that there is one set of HDi capabilities. Either it works, or doesn't. If it's broken, then the firmware should fix it. I'll expect that as more players (on both formats) roll out, they'll have more mature inplementations of the runtime environments, incorporating more fixes.

If this is the case with the Sony firmware update, I'm fine with that. However, so far given that the intial updates had to be done on the HD DVD side when there was just to Toshiba player means that there was only one vendor to provide a fix (RCA's deck, and their fix, were both just re-labeled Toshiba items). When the XBox addon came out, it ostensibily already incorporated this fix (or prompted a download). In this sense I believe we can justifiably level the criticism that the HDi environment was non-compliant. That, along with the status of avaialable fixes is useful to me as a consumer. It is also useful to me to know that there are no known HDi "features" that are not present to me in my player.

However, Talk has maintained that because there are no known compliance issues with the BD-J environment that these may be feature additions. If so, it would be useful for me to know what they are.


I gave you information on what I think is likely and what has been done with HD DVD titles that needed a firmware update to work. If you don't believe those are answers than honestly speaking you will have to wait and see how things go next year.

And that may be of some concern to potential buyers. You are taking a guess. Alex has some pretty strong indicators. Talk may know more than he is willing to (or can) share. All which leaves the consumer wondering what capability he is guaranteed to have before the middle of '07.

Should I plunk down $1000 now for a player that might never have PiP or the ToasterOven-Link feature? What if in the next month I see lots of titles come out that offer to toast my bread with the richness of a GUI interface? Am I SOL? Will the tile say "Tasty Snack not avaialble on Panasonic and Samsung players."?

[scaesare]

It is required in all players conformant to the BD-Live profile (regardless of release date), and in all Blu-ray players released after June 2007.

Talk, any indication of what a player that is released today, and is updated with some, but not all, BD-Live features would be categorized as?

BD-Video+?

BD-Video/June2007?

It's understandable to the consumer if his player doesn't have a hardware feature (like an ethernet port), that he won't get some functionality. But for others (like PiP, etc...) there are no "external indicators" as to what he has.

If a title has PiP features, will it simply be labeled as BD-Live? How would a consumer know whether his title worked on a player he bought today that he has firmware upgraded?

[scaesare]

A firmware upgrade fix doesn't imply non-compliance. Non-compliance means a player failed a test suite. A fix means a bug was found. Test suites aren't perfect, so there will likely always be bugs found even when a player passes the test suite (bugs typically result in new tests being added so that future players will have a more robust test suite). Further, a fix could mean improving performance such that some content runs when it might not have previously. Test suites generally don't factor in performance, so it's certainly possible content will be written which fails on a fully-compliant player.

- Talk

Umm, but earlier you said THIS (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9120275&&#post9120275) regarding HDi's needing to be upgraded:

A very slight mod, meaning one which makes certain movies work when they didn't before? Doesn't sound so slight to me. Either the initial HD-DVD players (both standalone and PC-based) a) weren't compliant with the HDi spec, b) were compliant with the spec but the compliance tests are incredibly weak, or c) there is some form of unannounced profiling going on where certain HDi features above-and-beyond the spec requirements are being used.

Would you say the same criteria applies to the Sony BD-J update, it it's necessary for some titles to run?

[b2bonez]

HDi + PiP + IME + BD-J + BD Live = zzZzzZZ......

"Wake me up when the movie starts.." ;)

b2b

[Kosty]

OT (sorta) ""Long Tail" phenomenon has long legs"

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20061211/tc_nm/longtail_dc_2

I'll let you read the article, but I think it demonstrates that unless the studios don't move new releases on HD to precede their release on DVD all they are doing is just creating another "long tail" niche that really won't interest the average consumer.

I saw "Dead Man's Chest" at the movies, twice on DVD and right now you couldn't get me to sit through it again (even on HD) unless you gave me a free disc and use of a player to watch it on.

Big Macs and fries don't get better the third time around just because of fancy china and shiny silverware..

b2b Actually B2 I think that it is OT.

I am a big fan of the "long tail theory" in which more and more niche choices exist with the search technology to find them which gives consumers a chance to buy and consume a lot of low volume products.

This favors online distribution (downloads in the future) and online retailers (Amazon and Netflix right now) and I think gives a structural advantage to HD DVD.

If the fixed cost for mastering Blu-ray discs is higher and their are more limited facilities to produce Blu-ray disks exist, then Blu-ray is geared toward the major blockbuster hit model.

If HD DVD can be mastered at lower costs, can be produced on more lines and at less cost for shorter and niche production runs, then a HD DVD pressing can make money even when the title is pressed on shorter runs. Or it can be repressed as needed at a lower cost.

The "long tail theory" in the long run favors online distribution, but who knows how fast it will take hyper bandwidth to arrive to make it possible. In the meantime transitional models like Netflix and Amazon using the post office and parcel carriers can support massive inventories of low volume products and make a profit from them.

HD DVD has an advantage over Blu-ray in the "long tail model' because of lower costs and its similarity to DVDs which is an already low cost, low volume capable, cost effective production mass manufactured product.

Blu-ray is geared toward hits, HD DVD can work with hits but also prosper with the long tail sales.

[b2bonez]

Actually B2 I think that it is OT.

I am a big fan of the "long tail theory" in which more and more niche choices exist with the search technology to find them which gives consumers a chance to buy and consume a lot of low volume products.

This favors online distribution (downloads in the future) and online retailers (Amazon and Netflix right now) and I think gives a structural advantage to HD DVD.

If the fixed cost for mastering Blu-ray discs is higher and their are more limited facilities to produce Blu-ray disks exist, then Blu-ray is geared toward the major blockbuster hit model.

If HD DVD can be mastered at lower costs, can be produced on more lines and at less cost for shorter and niche production runs, then a HD DVD pressing can make money even when the title is pressed on shorter runs. Or it can be repressed as needed at a lower cost.

The "long tail theory" in the long run favors online distribution, but who knows how fast it will take hyper bandwidth to arrive to make it possible. In the meantime transitional models like Netflix and Amazon using the post office and parcel carriers can support massive inventories of low volume products and make a profit from them.

HD DVD has an advantage over Blu-ray in the "long tail model' because of lower costs and its similarity to DVDs which is an already low cost, low volume capable, cost effective production mass manufactured product.

Blu-ray is geared toward hits, HD DVD can work with hits but also prosper with the long tail sales.

Did you actually read and understand the meaning of my post Kman or just saw it as opportunity to replay the "HD-DVD discs are cheaper" pre-recorded message ??

The issue is.. Will Hollywood start giving HD discs top billing (first release status for new movies) or are they just creating another "long tail" niche market with DVD still being the "head" ??

Turn off the spin machine for a minute and give it a think... ;)

b2b

[John Williams]

HDi + PiP + IME + BD-J + BD Live = zzZzzZZ......

"Wake me up when the movie starts.." ;)

b2b

AMEN!!

I don't care $0.02 for any of the "new" interactive features, I just want a great looking and sounding movie that starts when I want it to. And quite frankly, the old style commentary tracks are fine for me instead of some annoying pop-up talking head. That way, I can actually see what they're talking about, after all!

How hard is it for studios to understand that some of us just want to watch the film??

:confused:

-John

PS: Just bought a BDP-S1 this weekend and I love it!

[TomsHT]

AMEN!!

I don't care $0.02 for any of the "new" interactive features, I just want a great looking and sounding movie that starts when I want it to. And quite frankly, the old style commentary tracks are fine for me instead of some annoying pop-up talking head. That way, I can actually see what they're talking about, after all!

How hard is it for studios to understand that some of us just want to watch the film??

:confused:

-John

PS: Just bought a BDP-S1 this weekend and I love it!

Huh, its an extra option. You dont have to use it or listen to the commentary unless you activate it during the movie.

[John Williams]

Huh, its an extra option. You dont have to use it or listen to the commentary unless you activate it during the movie.

Sure, I'm just saying I'm not going to get my knickers in a twist about BD-Live or PiP or anything else not being available in a particular player.

I'm vastly more interested in the actual movie (cake) than the fancy new features (frosting, or sprinkles). That's why I bought it, after all!!

-John

[crussader]

HDi + PiP + IME + BD-J + BD Live = zzZzzZZ......

"Wake me up when the movie starts.." ;)




But I thought all this extra stuff was the reason BDs capacity advantage was so important?

[TomsHT]

Sure, I'm just saying I'm not going to get my knickers in a twist about BD-Live or PiP or anything else not being available in a particular player.

I'm vastly more interested in the actual movie (cake) than the fancy new features (frosting, or sprinkles). That's why I bought it, after all!!

-John

Agreed, the movie is most important. I havent used any of these commentary features during a movie but would be inerested in seeing live content such as being able to watch previews of current time movies if that type of internet interactivity ever becomes available for these players.

[wco81]

If they have to film peole doing commentary, then production costs will be much higher. They have to hire a filming crew, makeup people, studio time, etc.

That means those costs are passed on.

[Kosty]

Did you actually read and understand the meaning of my post Kman or just saw it as opportunity to replay the "HD-DVD discs are cheaper" pre-recorded message ??

The issue is.. Will Hollywood start giving HD discs top billing (first release status for new movies) or are they just creating another "long tail" niche market with DVD still being the "head" ??

Turn off the spin machine for a minute and give it a think... ;)

b2b Not spinning as fast as you are ;)

Just thought I would share the logical implications of your reference to long tail theory. I think HD DVD has an advantage there, even if it doesn't effect the outcome of the format war.

If HD DVD thrives, I think that the long tail will eventually transition to HD DVD as it becomes the industry standard for shiny discs. If Blu-ray dominates I think the long tail of shiny disc movies will stay in standard definition DVD because of the cost of Blu-ray mastering and replication and the lack of production lines.

The issue is.. Will Hollywood start giving HD discs top billing (first release status for new movies) or are they just creating another "long tail" niche market with DVD still being the "head" ??
I think that until the studios start releasing both the HD and standard DVD version at the same time, it will slow a little bit the adoption rate of HD. But I don't think it matters much now, because of the low penetration rate of the HD players in either format.

I think more and more studios will release in HD DVD and Blu-ray and standard DVD at the same time as the HD production lines increase and more players are sold. I think soon all major releases will be done that way.




P.S. "HD-DVD discs are (probably) cheaper (to master, author and replicate)" based on their physical similarity to DVDs at least in the short term than Blu-ray discs which need new mastering ,replication and manufacturing techniques that are currently being done at a more limited amount of production facilities.

[Kosty]

Originally Posted by b2bonez
HDi + PiP + IME + BD-J + BD Live = zzZzzZZ......

"Wake me up when the movie starts.." But I thought all this extra stuff was the reason BDs capacity advantage was so important? Gee if all you want is a 3 hour HD movie withh great picture and audio quality on a shiny disc, you can certainly fit that on a 30 GB DL HD DVD disc using VC-1.

So what's the advantage of Blu-ray again? It can't be cost......

[b2bonez]

Not spinning as fast as you are ;)

Just thought I would share the logical implications of your reference to long tail theory. I think HD DVD has an advantage there, even if it doesn't effect the outcome of the format war.

If HD DVD thrives, I think that the long tail will eventually transition to HD DVD as it becomes the industry standard for shiny discs. If Blu-ray dominates I think the long tail of shiny disc movies will stay in standard definition DVD because of the cost of Blu-ray mastering and replication and the lack of production lines.

I think that until the studios start releasing both the HD and standard DVD version at the same time, it will slow a little bit the adoption rate of HD. But I don't think it matters much now, because of the low penetration rate of the HD players in either format.

I think more and more studios will release in HD DVD and Blu-ray and standard DVD at the same time as the HD production lines increase and more players are sold. I think soon all major releases will be done that way.




P.S. "HD-DVD discs are (probably) cheaper (to master, author and replicate)" based on their physical similarity to DVDs at least in the short term than Blu-ray discs which need new mastering ,replication and manufacturing techniques that are currently being done at a more limited amount of production facilities.

Well I guess you can't come off your "talking points" long enough to understand this is a format agnostic issue.

Never mind..... :rolleyes:

b2b

[b2bonez]

Gee if all you want is a 3 hour HD movie withh great picture and audio quality on a shiny disc, you can certainly fit that on a 30 GB DL HD DVD disc using VC-1.

So what's the advantage of Blu-ray again? It can't be cost......

First things first.. Get the car running and then you can add-on the radio, A/C, mud-flaps, power antenna and moon roof... all those things take extra HP to get them to work...

Think "Bigger and Faster" is better than "smaller and slower" ;)

b2b

[2Channel]

First things first.. Get the car running and then you can add-on the radio, A/C, mud-flaps, power antenna and moon roof... all those things take extra HP to get them to work...

Think "Bigger and Faster" is better than "smaller and slower" ;)

b2b

I look at it differently. I have seen through experience that Occam's razor generally applies in these competitive market place scenarios.

"All things being equal, the simplest solution tends to be the best one."

[kdragon]

I look at it differently. I have seen through experience that Occam's razor generally applies in these competitive market place scenarios.

"All things being equal, the simplest solution tends to be the best one." I will have to agree with this. Now we can argue whether "all things being equal" applies or not, and what is "the simplest solution"! :)

[Kosty]

Same or better performance, cheaper price.

Hmmmm, which has the advantage? ;)

[wco81]

Believe me, VHS wasn't simpler than Beta.

To avoid the patented U-Matic tape path around the helical scan heads, JVC used a path shaped like an "M."

[Grubert]

Lite-On IT launches its first BD burner in Japan (http://www.digitimes.com/systems/a20061211PD202.html)
Lite-On IT recently launched its LH-2B1S serial ATA Blu-ray Disc (BD) Triple Writer, the company's first BD burner, in Japan at a retail price of 70,000 yen (US$600), with the price significantly lower than BD burners offered by other vendors, according to industry sources in Taiwan.

*********

Dell Moves Beyond High Definition with Blu-Ray Enabled Multimedia Notebook (http://www.dell.com/content/topics/global.aspx/corp/pressoffice/en/2006/2006_12_11_rr_000?c=us&l=en&s=corp)
This holiday season, customers worldwide can purchase Dell XPS M1710 notebooks configured with Blu-ray technology. Pricing starts at approximately US$3,699.

[b2bonez]

I look at it differently. I have seen through experience that Occam's razor generally applies in these competitive market place scenarios.

"All things being equal, the simplest solution tends to be the best one."

That's the point, things aren't equal..

"Bigger and Faster" is better than "smaller and slower"

Besides, Occam isn't building HD players anyway.. ;)

b2b

[mcsporfut]

First things first.. Get the car running and then you can add-on the radio, A/C, mud-flaps, power antenna and moon roof... all those things take extra HP to get them to work...

Think "Bigger and Faster" is better than "smaller and slower"

Except in the case of blu-ray today if I want that moon roof I might have to buy a new car.
I don't mind being an early adopter, but I won't be early cannon fodder

Unless Sony or whomever will buy back my out of spec. blu-ray player.. :rolleyes:

[b2bonez]

Except in the case of blu-ray today if I want that moon roof I might have to buy a new car.
I don't mind being an early adopter, but I won't be early cannon fodder

Unless Sony or whomever will buy back my out of spec. blu-ray player.. :rolleyes:

My sentiments exactly... :)

b2b

[Richard Paul]

Another thread had a link to high Def Digest release pages and there was 9 for HD-DVD and 39 for BluRay in the months of January and February.

That's quite a difference as these toys are ramping up. So are there some that aren't listed here, or does HD-DVD typically not announce this far in advance?Well because of additions, delays, and surprise announcements I would be hesitant to judge either HD format based on what has been announced for the future in terms of titles. It is much safer just to wait until the end of the month and count up what titles have been released for each format.


Talk, can you explain what this means to any BR players purchased before June 2007? Will they be updated or just not able to function on any titles that use BD-Live?Just to point this out but PiP is not the same as BD-Live since BD-Live is a profile of requirements for a player. Also all Blu-ray discs can play on any Blu-ray player but certain extra features (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8025284&&#post8025284) may not work depending upon the player that is used.


If a title has PiP features, will it simply be labeled as BD-Live?Well since PiP is a feature that can be found on a BD-