HiDef DVD News VII - News Only : AND WE MEAN IT: NEWS ONLY [Text View] - Page 8

Kosty

12-10-06, 10:37 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kosty
Are you Blu-ray advocates saying that it its probable that no Blu-ray player besides the PS3 will be on the market until the earliest June 2007 and maybe even December 2007? Just curious but when did those who support Blu-ray become "you Blu-ray advocates"? Can't we all just remember that the vast majority of us are individual consumers supporting our preferred format for personal reasons?

Fair enough. I usually try not to place into categories, but that post was in response to b2bonez and Rob Zuber that were directly above that post, that were clearly pro Blu-ray.

I was directing the question to those two posters as my phrase " you Blu-ray advocates" seemed to fairly describe them in this context. It was just a mechanism to direct the comment at them. They were actively posting pro Blu-ray comments at the time and the phrase was not meant to be perjorative, only descriptive in nature.

I was just trying to get a confirmation that my post you referenced was a logical inference from this statement from B2.
Well the difference is $499 being the price for the PS3 leaves the BD standalones room to work with over the next year or so. Sigma is working with a bunch of CE companies with their SoC solution and my crystal ball sez that by the end of next year there will be a bunch of BD players in the MSRP range of $499-$999. Street prices should be even less...
Any guess about how many HD-DVD players you will see for $199.00 ???
b2b

b2bonez

12-10-06, 10:41 AM

ILJG

12-10-06, 10:51 AM

Kosty

12-10-06, 11:03 AM

Reports from the front lines with the A2...

A2 works a lot better than the A1 (note in passing... there seems to be a lot of people buying the A2 to replace the A1... )

A2 is also having problems playing some DVD discs. The unit is giving error code "6". Surprising that DVDs are causing problems.

Coax audio is missing.. only optical

And last but not least.... *GASP... reports have it that a HDMI cable is not included in the box... (if this is wrong info please correct).

b2b

Well, I am very satisfied with the HD XA1 and I am planning on buying a HD XA2 to replace it. I am sure I can find a good home for my HD XA1. I already have several people who are interested. In other words, I LIKED the HD XA1 so much that I am sold on HD DVD as a viable format and I don't mind spending additional money on it to get premium performance, as my past experience has convinced me that I will get value for my money. I will be upgrading as a satisfied customer wanting to get the best performance available.

The HDMI cable isn't as much of an issue with this unit as it is for the PS3 launch. Here the player is only going to be used to play HD movies. The issue of not including a HDMI cable with the PS3 was that it would discourage Blu-ray movie usage on that gaming console, piss off consumers, as they would feel that it was a rip off to not include them and it might lower the Blu-ray movie attach rate for the PS3.

I did appreciate the HDMI cables that came with my HD XA1 even though I didn't use them as they were too short for my setup.

A2 is also having problems playing some DVD discs. The unit is giving error code "6". Surprising that DVDs are causing problems. Very early to report. Kinda very exaggerating to say "DVD's' are causing problems.

b2bonez

12-10-06, 11:03 AM

But please, by all means, continue...there MUST be some kind of use for cut, paste, spin, repeat....right?

I kinda like this one... ;)
Blu-Ray can only get better. HD-DVD can't.

b2b

Kosty

12-10-06, 11:05 AM

Ah yes, reporting what others are experiencing. Your "strength." Not only is it useful, what would we possibly do without it? Read it for ourselves? :eek: Or, heaven forbid...actually buy the players and software and experience it ourselves?? :eek:

Oh wait...we are already doing those things. ;) But please, by all means, continue...there MUST be some kind of use for cut, paste, spin, repeat....right? By the way, it seems that several posters have not actually bought a HD player in either format yet and are still advising us without practical knowledge.

Kinda hurts their credibility.

ILJG

12-10-06, 12:04 PM

So have you got your A2 yet ?? People are saying it's lots better than the A1... (if you don't mind giving up the analog outs) :)

I guess they were wrong and the A2 proves it..

b2b

Yup, I swore I wouldn't get another player until 1080p/24, but I broke down and bought the A2 yesterday. Still playing with it, hope to post later on it.

Which player(s) do you have, again?

Eternal_Sunshine

12-10-06, 12:13 PM

Yeah, that one is quite hilarious, isn't it?

You know what's really hilarious? That you and some others think that spending 500 $ on a HD-DVD player magically makes you an Hi-Def expert while waiting for more/better software/hardware means you shouldn't be allowed to participate in the debate...

Remember: attack the posts, not the poster (for not owning a HD player yet).

Paul_Seng

12-10-06, 12:23 PM

You know what's really hilarious? That you and some others think that spending 500 $ on a HD-DVD player magically makes you an Hi-Def expert while waiting for more/better software/hardware means you shouldn't be allowed to participate in the debate...

Remember: attack the posts, not the poster (for not owning a HD player yet).
So what's wrong with people actually buying a product and using it on a day to day basis before making claims about a particular technology? There are a bunch of owners here that have both blu ray and HD DVD and I would take them more seriously as they are speaking from day to day experience with both formats. Yet some here still have a deaf ear without owning either format.

I think the point being made here is that both formats are available. There's no reason to wait (unless there's an inherent problem with the technology that still needs to be worked out). If you really on a particular side by vehemently arguing for it and against it's competition then it would be advantageous to actually have a player and go by personal experience.

b2bonez

12-10-06, 12:24 PM

Yup, I swore I wouldn't get another player until 1080p/24, but I broke down and bought the A2 yesterday. Still playing with it, hope to post later on it.

Which player(s) do you have, again?

I'm sorry, if you are so wrapped up in being a "good soldier" for HD-DVD in this fabricated "war" and are paying large sums of money to beta test for Toshiba, you don't grasp the idea of researching products before you buy them.

"Experience keeps a dear school, but fools will learn in no other.." B. Franklin

Please ponder that quotation and get back to me when the light bulb goes on... :)

b2b

UxiSXRD

12-10-06, 12:26 PM

Paul_Seng

12-10-06, 12:46 PM

UxiSXRD, I agree 100% about movies released on both formats (don't know about blu ray only as I haven't seen one and I wouldn't remember how great the PQ was when I did see it in the theater).
I have been going to my local BB hoping to walk in on a new shipment of PS3's (won't pay over $600 for just a STB), with no luck. Although, if anybody has noticed, I have not posted any negative things about the quality of Blu Ray, just that there is more to a technology than specs.

And to just comment on the Xa1, I have had the A1 since the beginning and I have only had one problem with viewing movies and it turned out to be the HDMI cable, so the only quirk I can attest to is the slow booting time. I also have the add-on and it works fine also.
I am now waiting on the Xa2 for it's alleged "true" 1080P/24 output before I buy another HD DVD player.

b2bonez

12-10-06, 01:10 PM

ILJG

12-10-06, 01:11 PM

I'm sorry, if you are so wrapped up in being a "good soldier" for HD-DVD in this fabricated "war" and are paying large sums of money to beta test for Toshiba, you don't grasp the idea of researching products before you buy them.

Large sums? I bought both players for less than the original price of the Samsung, and current price of the Sony, Panasonic and Pioneer. PS3's not an option for me since I'm not a gamer and I won't put a game console in my rack. Even if I did, it's hardly easy to get one of those now, anyway, even if I were interested.

It's obnoxious, presumptuous, insulting, rude, and downright incorrect for you to insinuate that HD-DVD supporters like me didn't research the products before we bought them. Not that it's different than your sadly usual behavior, here, but you should know that early adopters know the risks even when they feel they've done all the research they possibly can. I could be equally as obnoxious and say you shouldn't equate your nonstop regurgitating of the same spin over...and over...and over with "research," but I wouldn't stoop to that level and make such a presumption, that's your style, obviously. ;)

While the A1 is slow, I didn't feel like a guinea pig or a Beta tester at all. The PQ and AQ it produces are stellar. I've had a few hiccups (brief video freeze) after FW2, but guess what, I'd get hiccups even on my OPPO, and every other SD DVD player I've had, usually disc related. And getting the IME and TrueHD on a gen1 player is worth it, especially at that price point. I've had my A2 a very short time, and have had NO similar hiccups whatsoever in its short tenure.

"Experience keeps a dear school, but fools will learn in no other.." B. Franklin

Please ponder that quotation and get back to me when the light bulb goes on... :)

That's great, Sparky, but this is an A/V forum. You know, audio and video quality. While we're all interested in the guts of what delivers the audio and video to us, it's the end result that counts. While you can cut, paste, spin and repeat everyone else's experiences, until YOU are seeing and hearing, FIRST HAND, the PQ/AQ being produced by these things for many hours and weeks and months, like the rest of us who actually own and use this stuff, your incessant marketing and cheerleading is worth jack.

Ponder that and ... oh never mind, if you haven't realised that simple concept by now, you certainly won't anytime soon. ;)

Kosty

12-10-06, 01:12 PM

That goes both ways. Any of you obstinate HD-DVD-only partisans think owning the players are necessary to draw an informed decision on the formats, you had better have Blu-ray players, as well, (for logical consistency, if nothing else), if you're going espouse the superiority of the format on the basis of that argument.

Obviously, owning and using a player is incidental as numerous other factors come into play (proper calibration, quality of the individual source on disc, idiosyncracies of specific equipment, etc).

There is always an objective conclusion drawn by a display of the two, as well. I, for example, attended a meet at a local AVS Member's theater where we observed a face-off between the two formats on a reference quality system (ISF calibrated Qualia 004 project to 133" screen, Pioneer Elite 7.1, acoustically prepared dedicated theater room, Tosh HD-DVD and Panny Blu-ray, etc) and just about all of us in attendance concluded the same thing: neither format has an inherent PQ or AQ advantage over the other. It comes down to individual masters and even video codec didn't show a subtantive difference. The only quantifiable difference between the two formats is studio support, though if you are a true videophile you just can't take partake in format partisanship unless you're going to settle for standard definition from certain studio(s). Blu-ray simply has outstanding PQ titles that an HD-DVD partisan cannot and will not be able to enjoy for the forseeable future, and it's the same for a Blu-ray partisan.

FWIW, I own the 360 HD-DVD add-on and will be getting a PS3 as soon as I can find one. Though I do admire certain aspects of the XA1, I always had doubts as to whether the quirks justified even the dropping price. I think the major issue is someone who doesn't own a particular machine constantly telling everyone how crappy the experience is even when countless other people who actually have experience with it patiently try to explain to him why his postings are not accurate.

Its not required to have a HD player to have a valid opinion or contribution, and I absolutely understand why many have not bought a Blu-ray player yet because of their cost and the lack of availability of the PS3. I understand people waiting until the 2nd generation HD DVD players to hit the street. But soon, if you don't own one, its gonna be kinda hard to find an excuse why you didn't spend a bit to experience the HD quality that you imply you care so much about.

But its also a valid point to make, that lack of actual day to day experience in either formats performance can affect your credibility especially if its done consistently in a distorted manner and contrary to the experience of others that actually own the device.

At the very least, it does go to the question of credibility.

If you are a very vocal partisan here and haven't spent $499 or less to get practical experience in HD movie playback, one does have to question your motivations.

I see most of the HD DVD backers as at least having practical experience. And many others on both sides, even if we don't own a Blu-ray player, have seen them a lot in other demos and trade shows. But most of us in that situation, don't talk trash about something we don't have a lot of practical experience on. We qualify our observations and refer to the experiences of others.

After the PS3 and the HD A2 becomes readily available, I'll find it weird if some of the more prominent posters here don't invest in their credibility and buy one and gain practical experience so they actually know what they are talking about.

I mean if your posting hundreds of post here and won't spend $400-$500 to get great HD quality, then how can you be serious about the enjoyment of HD movies?

DTV TiVo Dealer

12-10-06, 01:19 PM

Reports from the front lines with the A2...

And last but not least.... *GASP*... reports have it that a HDMI cable is not included in the box... (if this is wrong info please correct).

b2b

I thought Toshiba was using the same HDMI- HDMI cable that Panasonic puts in their $1300 player? (If this is wrong info please correct.)

-Robert

AV Doogie

12-10-06, 01:32 PM

Reports from the front lines with the A2...

A2 works a lot better than the A1 (note in passing... there seems to be a lot of people buying the A2 to replace the A1... )
Sounds like people were impressed enough with the A1 to warrant purchasing a faster player (same cost as original unit, not bad huh?)

A2 is also having problems playing some DVD discs. The unit is giving error code "6". Surprising that DVDs are causing problems.
I have not heard of any problems, but I am sure that a software update will fix this problem soon.

Coax audio is missing.. only optical
Not a big deal if most are updating to HDMI anyway!

And last but not least.... *GASP*... reports have it that a HDMI cable is not included in the box... (if this is wrong info please correct).
I guess the subsidy is over ;)
b2b

.

roma_victor

12-10-06, 01:36 PM

I think the major issue is someone who doesn't own a particular machine constantly telling everyone how crappy the experience is even when countless other people who actually have experience with it patiently try to explain to him why his postings are not accurate.

Its not required to have a HD player to have a valid opinion or contribution, and I absolutely understand why many have not bought a Blu-ray player yet because of their cost and the lack of availability of the PS3. I understand people waiting until the 2nd generation HD DVD players to hit the street. But soon, if you don't own one, its gonna be kinda hard to find an excuse why you didn't spend a bit to experience the HD quality that you imply you care so much about.

But its also a valid point to make, that lack of actual day to day experience in either formats performance can affect your credibility especially if its done consistently in a distorted manner and contrary to the experience of others that actually own the device.

At the very least, it does go to the question of credibility.

If you are a very vocal partisan here and haven't spent $499 or less to get practical experience in HD movie playback, one does have to question your motivations.

I see most of the HD DVD backers as at least having practical experience. And many others on both sides, even if we don't own a Blu-ray player, have seen them a lot in other demos and trade shows. But most of us in that situation, don't talk trash about something we don't have a lot of practical experience on. We qualify our observations and refer to the experiences of others.

After the PS3 and the HD A2 becomes readily available, I'll find it weird if some of the more prominent posters here don't invest in their credibility and buy one and gain practical experience so they actually know what they are talking about.

I mean if your posting hundreds of post here and won't spend $400-$500 to get great HD quality, then how can you be serious about the enjoyment of HD movies?

Hear, hear. While I strongly believe that anyone is entitled to post his/her opinions and thoughts with or without any practical experience with either format, what I find amazing is that some of the most ardent supporters of BD (and most frequent posters) on this forum do not have a BD player.

It is hard to understand how someone who does not own a particular product or have any financial or personal stake in the format war would take such a strong interest in defending/praising the product and crtiticizing the competition. To each his/her own, I guess.

markrubin

12-10-06, 01:44 PM

the HDMI cable is available from Monoprice for under $10.00

ILJG

12-10-06, 01:45 PM

I think the major issue is someone who doesn't own a particular machine constantly telling everyone how crappy the experience is even when countless other people who actually have experience with it patiently try to explain to him why his postings are not accurate.

Its not required to have a HD player to have a valid opinion or contribution, and I absolutely understand why many have not bought a Blu-ray player yet because of their cost and the lack of availability of the PS3. I understand people waiting until the 2nd generation HD DVD players to hit the street. But soon, if you don't own one, its gonna be kinda hard to find an excuse why you didn't spend a bit to experience the HD quality that you imply you care so much about.

But its also a valid point to make, that lack of actual day to day experience in either formats performance can affect your credibility especially if its done consistently in a distorted manner and contrary to the experience of others that actually own the device.

At the very least, it does go to the question of credibility.

If you are a very vocal partisan here and haven't spent $499 or less to get practical experience in HD movie playback, one does have to question your motivations.

I see most of the HD DVD backers as at least having practical experience. And many others on both sides, even if we don't own a Blu-ray player, have seen them a lot in other demos and trade shows. But most of us in that situation, don't talk trash about something we don't have a lot of practical experience on. We qualify our observations and refer to the experiences of others.

After the PS3 and the HD A2 becomes readily available, I'll find it weird if some of the more prominent posters here don't invest in their credibility and buy one and gain practical experience so they actually know what they are talking about.

I mean if your posting hundreds of post here and won't spend $400-$500 to get great HD quality, then how can you be serious about the enjoyment of HD movies?

Amen!! Even more mind-boggling, why would you go to a forum that's going to be heavily visited by A/V early adopters on the cutting edge, when the forum itself is obviously dedicated to the cutting edge...and then proceed to insult those who actually adopt early?

wco81

12-10-06, 01:49 PM

the HDMI cable is available from Monoprice for under $10.00

Does it have to be a certain gauge?

Or does it need to be dual link?

nataraj

12-10-06, 01:49 PM

There are two profiles, BD-Video and BD-Live. Within BD-Video there are a few features which are optional today but become mandatory for players initially released after June, 2007.

Essentially BD-J is very confusing and less than half baked. The players you buy today will not support bd-j features in movies of tomorrow ....

nataraj

12-10-06, 01:52 PM

Even if I do know, what exactly would provide me the authority to pre-announce possible new features for Sony? I'm merely pointing out there is nothing in the wording of the firmware upgrade which in any way suggests something is "broken" about the existing implementation; the upgrade could well introduce new features.

There is nothing to preannouce. What features of BD-J does the sany player support (we will know what it doesn't from there) ...

Talk, somehow you are always long on generalities and zero on specifics :rolleyes:

g55555sim

12-10-06, 01:52 PM

roma_victor

12-10-06, 01:57 PM

The HD-DVD crowd started off with less technology to begin with and now is hell bent on painting themselves into a corner of a profitless business model with a cheering section egging them on.

And they wonder why the rest of the CE industry isn't jumping in on their trip to the poor house ?? Go figure... ;)

b2b

For the hundredth time, PLEASE stop asserting this as fact without any support.

As seen here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=752933&page=12&pp=30

you already conceded that you have no factual support that the A2 is subsidized i.e. "profitless" and that any speculation that it is subsidized is just that - mere speculation.
Fast forward a few weeks and you are posting the same unsupported speculation as fact.
I know your response will be that "profitless business model" and "trip to the poor house" does not necessarily mean subsidized players, but the implication of your post was clear.

PSound

12-10-06, 01:59 PM

Amen!! Even more mind-boggling, why would you go to a forum that's going to be heavily visited by A/V early adopters on the cutting edge, when the forum itself is obviously dedicated to the cutting edge...and then proceed to insult those who actually adopt early?
This is actually very relevant, for a couple of reasons. It seems to me that those who have purchased some sort of player are here because they are truly interested in experiencing the next gen. Those who have not are more interested in starting flame wars, etc. If you take a look, those who do not own any hardware are often involved in the discussions that get personal and/or go down some sort of rathole.

Perhaps it would be beneficial to create a sub-forum for people who do not own any next gen hardware to discuss the formats and not allow them to post in the general forums. That way people who are actually interested in experiencing the next gen formats can have real discussions with less flame wars, etc. and those who do not own the formats still have a place to go to research and discuss the formats.

DTV TiVo Dealer

12-10-06, 02:00 PM

Yes, I wonder if that was sitting in the back of my head as I wrote that. Speaking of your session, I'm going to be at CES on Monday when your panel is taking place.

I'm tempted to attend the session, but I'm not sure I'll here anything I haven't already heard on this thread. What do you think? Is it going to be worth the extra money?

Not sure as CES will not give me a list of questions so I do not know what to expect. However, I was on the speakers board at the last Home Media Retailer DVD conference earlier this year in Los Angeles and a lot came out of that panel discussion. I continually brought up the damage ICT will bring to the marketplace by pointing out the hundreds of millions of consumers that do not have HDMI HDCP compliant HDTVs. I also encouraged Sony to use more advanced codec.

This conference session will be more focused on the current and predicted outcome of BD vs. HD DVD.

Steve Nickerson, SVP, Warner was also on the last panel of experts with me and we have both been selected to be on the board for this one. I share the expert speaker panel with Mr. Andy Parsons, SVP Pioneer and Chairman of the USA promotion Committee for the BD Disc association and Mr. Ben Keen, Chief Analyst , Screen Digest. Mr. Paul Sweeting, from Variety is the moderator.

I love these sessions as they bring out the decision makers to participate as panel experts themselves and for many more to be in the live audience to hear first hand many things they woulld not normally learn in their day in and day out work days. Those who do not attend the session will be reading about the discussions in the trade publications.

-Robert

markrubin

12-10-06, 02:03 PM

Does it have to be a certain gauge?

Or does it need to be dual link?

for a short run (under 6 feet) no worry

dual link refers to DVI cables: HDMI cables are all the same

I try to stay away from the heavier guage HDMI cables for short runs: the ferrite cores get too heavy

monoprice also sells a 6 inch HDMI strain relief cable that is helpful to connect a heavy HDMI cable to a component without adding stress to the connection

g55555sim

12-10-06, 02:14 PM

Not sure as CES will not give me a list of questions so I do not know what to expect. However, I was on the speakers board at the last Home Media Retailer DVD conference earlier this year in Los Angeles and a lot came out of that panel discussion. I continually brought up the damage ICT will bring to the marketplace by pointing out the hundreds of millions of consumers that do not have HDMI HDCP compliant HDTVs. I also encouraged Sony to use more advanced codec.

This conference session will be more focused on the current and predicted outcome of BD vs. HD DVD.

Steve Nickerson, SVP, Warner was also on the last panel of experts with me and we have both been selected to be on the board for this one. I share the expert speaker panel with Mr. Andy Parsons, SVP Pioneer and Chairman of the USA promotion Committee for the BD Disc association and Mr. Ben Keen, Chief Analyst , Screen Digest. Mr. Paul Sweeting, from Variety is the moderator.

I love these sessions as they bring out the decision makers to participate as panel experts themselves and for many more to be in the live audience to hear first hand many things they woulld not normally learn in their day in and day out work days. Those who do not attend the session will be reading about the discussions in the trade publications.

-Robert

will we get the chance to read the transcript or video recording maybe ?

DTV TiVo Dealer

12-10-06, 02:19 PM

^^ CES does not permit video recordings. My daughter had her digital camcorder at the last conference and recorded both of my sessions.

The only reporting I know of will be my own accounting and if any member(s) attend and post information as well as the trade publications reports.

The CES may sell DVD's of the event and I'll find out and let you know.

-Robert

wco81

12-10-06, 02:20 PM

This is actually very relevant, for a couple of reasons. It seems to me that those who have purchased some sort of player are here because they are truly interested in experiencing the next gen.

Well we have dozens of impressions threads, even whole forums devoted to discussions of specific products.

This thread is a news thread, not just reporting news but discussion of news, implications of news.

Anyways, people who've invested may have more firsthand experience but you could turn it around and question whether they're still objective. As we've seen, some people get invested not just financially but emotionally in products. Maybe they no longer have the critical distance you sometimes need for rational discussion.

Both of these formats, but especially HD-DVD with fewer HW vendor and studio support, have long odds against them. So it's a perfectly valid decision to wait to see how things develop, especially since each new hardware released in the market seems to offer more features, better value.

It's been barely 6 months since the first hardware was released. And that's already been replaced by something ostensibly better. What is wrong with waiting?

When I start watching Blu-Ray movies on my PS3, I will post about it in another thread, another sub-forum. I have no specific plans to get HD-DVD but nobody is going to browbeat me from commenting on it here.

2Channel

12-10-06, 02:21 PM

That's an interesting observation... and one that puts everything into true perspective, the real product is the movies, not the HW. As much a people think they have a choice about what format "wins", that is an illusion. The studios will decide who wins and it is the studios that are the object of all of the marketing that is going on.

All of us here on AVS are just pawns being used to further the product plans and goals of a lot of CE companies (plus one very well monied SW company ;) ).

We have no choice but to "buy" or not to "buy". Do with or do without.. I choose to "do without" until the studios get serious with compelling new content (and release schedules) enough to make "buying" a real value to me. YMMV... :)

But in the meantime, BD is the superior optical disc format and hope the studios choose wisely.. :D

b2b

I don't feel this way personally. If I did I wouldn't post. But seeing as you do feel like a pawn that is being used, why do you post?

As for your analysis above, I feel that you're partially correct. The CE's have to sell in two directions, to the studios and to the consumer. The CE's have the least power in this equation as they are dependent on the support of both the studios and consumers. To the studios they can offer IP royalties from their format, to the consumer they can offer subsidized players and discs.

Studios are the second most powerful, unless they choose to act in unison behind one format. This brings some risk of government investigation though (look at the EU snooping around BD). The studios have power by providing or not providing content in a given format. They can also choose to subsidize their discs or offer hybrid functionality at no added cost (assuming the format supports it).

Assuming the studios are not unified behind a single format, the consumer is the most powerful. The consumer votes with his or her dollar on players and movies, and both the CEs and studios can't ignore the consumer market trends. A studio may choose to stay loyal to a particular format if they are looking at a potential IP royalty stream, but if the format is showing to be a failure in the market place they will cut their losses and move on.

wco81

12-10-06, 02:22 PM

for a short run (under 6 feet) no worry

dual link refers to DVI cables: HDMI cables are all the same

I try to stay away from the heavier guage HDMI cables for short runs: the ferrite cores get too heavy

monoprice also sells a 6 inch HDMI strain relief cable that is helpful to connect a heavy HDMI cable to a component without adding stress to the connection

I would be getting a HDMI to DVI.

b2bonez

12-10-06, 02:53 PM

Ken H

12-10-06, 02:56 PM

Phew... feel better now... :)

b2bDon't.

b2bonez

12-10-06, 03:14 PM

I don't feel this way personally. If I did I wouldn't post. But seeing as you do feel like a pawn that is being used, why do you post?

Well there is a lot to be learned from some very smart technical people (in between all the "war" shouting) and also to let the industry know that everyone they seek as potential customers aren't idiots. The industry types lurk here and every chance I get, it just gives me a little hoot to thumb my nose at them. :) (That is not aimed at the neutral insiders that seek only to inform (Kjack.. Tom M. etc..).)

It also kind of fun to participate in a pseudo "religious war" without the real religion.. ;)

BD forever !.. death to the infidel HD-DVD !! Amen Brother !!! :D :D

b2b

Kolgar

12-10-06, 03:19 PM

Perhaps it would be beneficial to create a sub-forum for people who do not own any next gen hardware to discuss the formats and not allow them to post in the general forums. That way people who are actually interested in experiencing the next gen formats can have real discussions with less flame wars, etc. and those who do not own the formats still have a place to go to research and discuss the formats.

I agree. I've been "challenged" by certain people on the BD side (who have NOT purchased a player), but when I've responded with a well-thought-out argument, it has gone unanswered.

It all amounts to irritating "noise" that drastically reduces the value and validity of conversation on this forum.

Kosty

12-10-06, 03:29 PM

The only quantifiable difference between the two formats is studio support, though if you are a true videophile you just can't take partake in format partisanship unless you're going to settle for standard definition from certain studio(s). Blu-ray simply has outstanding PQ titles that an HD-DVD partisan cannot and will not be able to enjoy for the forseeable future, and it's the same for a Blu-ray partisan. Well paying twice the price for the same or less performance is an quantifiable difference.

Thats one of the major advantages of HD DVD, its projected lower cost. As long as that's true, its a lesser risk to jump into HD DVD than Blu-ray, even more so when the lower priced HD DVD players superbly upconvert standard DVD's to near HD quality, and the lowest priced Blu-ray option for the foreseeable future, the PS3, does not. That also is a quantifiable difference.

Once more than a couple hundred titles are available in both formats the lack of content becomes less and less of a factor. There's a critical mass issue here, where enough content to play initially to enjoy the player is reached.

In regards to studio support, HD DVD buyers have at least the advantage of superb upconversion available with the lowest priced players. That handicaps the PS3 acceptance as a movie player as HD upconversion cannot be used as a rationale to upgrade to it as a standalone HD player.

b2bonez

12-10-06, 03:46 PM

Originally Posted by PSound
Perhaps it would be beneficial to create a sub-forum for people who do not own any next gen hardware to discuss the formats and not allow them to post in the general forums. That way people who are actually interested in experiencing the next gen formats can have real discussions with less flame wars, etc. and those who do not own the formats still have a place to go to research and discuss the formats.
I agree. I've been "challenged" by certain people on the BD side (who have NOT purchased a player), but when I've responded with a well-thought-out argument, it has gone unanswered.

It all amounts to irritating "noise" that drastically reduces the value and validity of conversation on this forum.

Well there are four forums for exactly that right here on AVS. The HD-DVD & Blu-Ray HW & SW forums. Problem is that no respect is given to thread crapping by the "other side".

b2b

Kosty

12-10-06, 03:48 PM

Well we have dozens of impressions threads, even whole forums devoted to discussions of specific products.

This thread is a news thread, not just reporting news but discussion of news, implications of news.

Anyways, people who've invested may have more firsthand experience but you could turn it around and question whether they're still objective. As we've seen, some people get invested not just financially but emotionally in products. Maybe they no longer have the critical distance you sometimes need for rational discussion.

Both of these formats, but especially HD-DVD with fewer HW vendor and studio support, have long odds against them. So it's a perfectly valid decision to wait to see how things develop, especially since each new hardware released in the market seems to offer more features, better value.

It's been barely 6 months since the first hardware was released. And that's already been replaced by something ostensibly better. What is wrong with waiting?

When I start watching Blu-Ray movies on my PS3, I will post about it in another thread, another sub-forum. I have no specific plans to get HD-DVD but nobody is going to browbeat me from commenting on it here. I certainly agree that this thread is different and that no ownership restrictions should apply for posting.

Posters develop their own credibility, actually buying and enjoying something you've been talking about for years is just one factor to consider.

I think that comments and analysis critical of each format is the purpose of the forum, and perfectly appropriate, no matter what format you own. If your interested in HD movies your contributions are certainly welcome.

News is certainly worthy of comment, speculative thoughts and analysis that impact both formats can be identified by anyone. I'm interested in Blu-ray issues, even though I own only an HD DVD player now. I may own Blu-ray someday, and Blu-ray's performance and sales now affect the HD DVD format.

But we all know when some have gone over the edge into plain silliness or even worse.

Kosty

12-10-06, 03:54 PM

Well there are four forums for exactly that right here on AVS. The HD-DVD & Blu-Ray HW & SW forums. Problem is that no respect is given to thread crapping by the "other side".

b2b I don't think its a much an issue with the posts as with the posters. Critical comments should be made and talked about in those forums.

And ownership or the "side" you tend toward is not an issue if your comment is reasonable and not meant to be trollish or argumentative for argumentative purposes only.

Specific issues and their impact are appropriate to be discussed in those areas regardless if you own that player type or not.

I think that a lot of the problem is some immature behavior and some people both "threadcrapping " on one side and others too easily offended by critical comments, observations or bad news.

But on the whole, I see the current situation here at AVS pretty good, and I appreciate the comments of most posters even when I disagree with their logic.

2Channel

12-10-06, 04:47 PM

I agree. I've been "challenged" by certain people on the BD side (who have NOT purchased a player), but when I've responded with a well-thought-out argument, it has gone unanswered.

It all amounts to irritating "noise" that drastically reduces the value and validity of conversation on this forum.

I've enjoyed your posts Kolgar, you've added some interesting ideas to the mix. Don't worry about the bashing that flares up from time to time, it's just part of this particular stew. The news items of significance are few and far between so there tends to be a lot more debate going on in the mean time.

Richard Paul

12-10-06, 05:17 PM

And I'm interested in affordable HD whatever the format, so if I ask a specific question regrding one of them, please do us all a favor and realize that a question does not equal an attack, OK?Sure, but your questions towards Blu-ray seem far more negative than they have to be simply to gain information. Also you already got the answers (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9127518&&#post9127518) to most of your original questions from what I can see.

'Cause if I decide to purchase hardware and titles, I'd like to know what the implications mean. Do I need to look for a specific revision of frimware for a given player model?Which is why I brought up the issue of U-Control titles since they required a firmware update to work properly. Believe it or not it was just the best example I could think of at the moment and it is likely that firmware updates will be needed for both formats as time goes on.

This, Richard, is where wonder if you are doing this on purpose:

1) Title has feature "X"

2) Feature "X" may, or may not be part of BD-Video

3) Feature "X" therefore may or may not work on the player you have, based on it's firmware

4) Is there any way for the consumer to know this is the case for a given title prior tp spending his $$$?As far as I know none of the U-Control titles on HD DVD indicated that they needed a firmware update besides the typical warning about using the latest firmware update available. As such it is logical to assume that this will be the policy for most titles released on either HD format.

Now as for the BD-Live features it depends on what your player supports as to whether those particular features will work. Honestly it should be simple to determine that based on what your player is capable of since PiP will require PiP decoding, downloading movie trailers will require a large amount of persistent storage, and internet features would require internet connectivity.

You really can't help but turn a specific question into a format battle, can you? I choose not to.As you told me in the same post a question is not necessarily an attack on a format and I was trying to answer your question. Instead of attacking me read what I post and you will see that I am simply trying to answer your remaining questions.

Issac Hunt

12-10-06, 05:18 PM

Essentially BD-J is very confusing and less than half baked. The players you buy today will not support bd-j features in movies of tomorrow ....
Would that be the official Microsoft view of Sun's product? (kisses) :)

Brian Miller

12-10-06, 05:28 PM

Talk, somehow you are always long on generalities and zero on specifics :rolleyes:Well, Bill does work in Marketing after all! :)

Richard Paul

12-10-06, 05:55 PM

Essentially BD-J is very confusing and less than half baked. The players you buy today will not support bd-j features in movies of tomorrow ....nataraj, you know quite well the differences between BD-Live and BD-Video at this point and your attempts to confuse this issue are obvious. There are only three added features in BD-Live so excuse me if I find the idea of it being very confusing to be very laughable. Also you are very quick to attack BD-Live when its requirements in terms of PiP and persistent storage are even higher than what is required in HD DVD. Why don't you ever bother to mention that?

Talk, somehow you are always long on generalities and zero on specifics :rolleyes:nataraj, that is a pretty hypocritical statement to make considering you never once said the same thing about Amir even when he said things just as vaguely as what Talkstr8t said in that post.

Don't.Are we supposed to ignore the fact that certain Microsoft employees are attacking BD-J on a regular basis? Also nataraj has recently been on the warpath against Talkstr8t as seen in this post (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9122815&&#post9122815) from yesterday. Isn't there a forum rule against rude behavior?

b2bonez

12-10-06, 06:20 PM

Oh gosh ! Look who is getting linked off of the "Look and Sound of Perfect" propaganda site..

Guess Who !! None other than our pal... or should I say "their pal" Robbie Enderle.. Gee my nose for planted articles is getting pretty good... :)

From your HD-DVD friends at TGDaily

http://www.tgdaily.com/2006/11/29/enderle_on_christmas_trends/

b2b

DTV TiVo Dealer

12-10-06, 06:26 PM

Well, Bill does work in Marketing after all! :)

Who's Bill?

-Robert

Kosty

12-10-06, 06:30 PM

Kosty

12-10-06, 06:32 PM

Who's Bill?

-Robert Bill aka Talkstr8t. (Blu-ray insider)

Amirm keeps calling him Bill, although I don't know if Talk has actually publicly acknowlged it, he has answered to that name.

b2bonez

12-10-06, 06:36 PM

We considering the article was from a prominent respected industry analyst who was earlier predicting an easy Blu-ray victory and has now changed his mind and is now predicting HD DVD success because of a new factor he didn't consider (the Xbox 360 HD DVD movie player bundle) , I would link to it too if I was in charge of the HD DVD promotional site. :D

Its an representative article that effectively highlights the trend in recent press coverage.

I wonder how "respected" Robbie would be if he put a "disclosure" in his by line the he is president of a company that has Toshiba listed as a client ??

b2b

Talkstr8t

12-10-06, 06:37 PM

Talk, somehow you are always long on generalities and zero on specificsI am often very specific. However, when appropriate (due to NDA's or other information for which it is not my place to announce) I'll attempt to provide some insight within the bounds of ethical business behavior. Sorry if that doesn't always meet your demand for information...

wco81

12-10-06, 06:38 PM

What are you going to think of Enderle if he flip-flops again?

Talkstr8t

12-10-06, 06:38 PM

I share the expert speaker panel with Mr. Andy Parsons, SVP Pioneer and Chairman of the USA promotion Committee for the BD Disc association and Mr. Ben Keen, Chief Analyst , Screen Digest. Mr. Paul Sweeting, from Variety is the moderator. Robert, are you on the panel specifically to represent HD-DVD, or as a retailer without a specific format bias?

Talkstr8t

12-10-06, 06:39 PM

There are only three added features in BD-LivePiP is not a BD-Live feature; it's required in all BD players released after June 2007.

wco81

12-10-06, 06:41 PM

a retailer without a specific format bias?

That ship sailed a LONNNG time ago. ;)

Kosty

12-10-06, 06:43 PM

I am often very specific. However, when appropriate (due to NDA's or other information for which it is not my place to announce) I'll attempt to provide some insight within the bounds of ethical business behavior. Sorry if that doesn't always meet your demand for information... I think Talk is very specific when he can be. His posting here are clearly handicapped by NDAs.

I'm glad he and the other insiders are here. :)

PSound

12-10-06, 06:46 PM

PiP is not a BD-Live feature; it's required in all BD players released after June 2007.
So based on these recent discussions (and obvious confusion), is there any plan for Blu-Ray to provide some education to the consumer explaining which features are supported by which players?

Perhaps a matrix of released movies and hardware with a checklist of which features will work on which players?

DTV TiVo Dealer

12-10-06, 06:48 PM

b2bonez

12-10-06, 06:49 PM

We considering the article was from a prominent respected industry analyst who was earlier predicting an easy Blu-ray victory and has now changed his mind and is now predicting HD DVD success because of a new factor he didn't consider (the Xbox 360 HD DVD movie player bundle) , I would link to it too if I was in charge of the HD DVD promotional site. :D

Its an representative article that effectively highlights the trend in recent press coverage.

Seems this is not the first time for Robbie...
Sun zinged by rent-a-quote analyst

Imagine our surprise when The Economist - possibly the most respected magazine on the planet by business types - closed out an evisceration of Sun Microsystems by turning to a consultant who gets paid by most of Sun's major competitors.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/04/07/sun_enderele/

b2b

b2bonez

12-10-06, 06:53 PM

What are you going to think of Enderle if he flip-flops again?

Hired gun going to the highest bidder... I have little use for "paid consultants" in Journalists clothing..

b2b

Michael Mullis

12-10-06, 06:58 PM

Hired gun going to the highest bidder... I have little use for "paid consultants" in Journalists clothing..

Until he says Blu-ray is better, then he'll magically gain back all the credibility you say he doesn't have. ;)

b2bonez

12-10-06, 07:10 PM

Until he says Blu-ray is better, then he'll magically gain back all the credibility you say he doesn't have. ;)

Nope not really.. Pundits are like brother-in-laws... They like to come over to your house and tell you everything that is wrong with everything, but if you ask them to help you out, then they suddenly disappear with pressing engagements... ;)

b2b

Kosty

12-10-06, 07:48 PM

Seems this is not the first time for Robbie...

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/04/07/sun_enderele/

b2b Actually that article sounds like someone else who has sour grapes because they don't like what he says.

That writer criticises The Economist for taking his input because he's on advisory councils to other technology companies, who by the way compete with themselves as well as Sun. Just because he is saying critical things people don't like to hear he doesn't sound like he's necessarily shilling for a paycheck.

scaesare

12-10-06, 07:57 PM

Sure, but your questions towards Blu-ray seem far more negative than they have to be simply to gain information. Also you already got the answers (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9127518&&#post9127518) to most of your original questions from what I can see.

No, I post to challange information that's inconsistent with what a person has said. Talk maintains there could be new features in the updates. I challange to determine how we would know what the dependancy is from a title perspective.

If they ain't features, but fixes, then he should state that. In so doing, he'll need to acknowledge Alex is correct regarding the "compliance" issue.

And no, he didn't answer the question. Neither have you.

Which is why I brought up the issue of U-Control titles since they required a firmware update to work properly. Believe it or not it was just the best example I could think of at the moment and it is likely that firmware updates will be needed for both formats as time goes on.

So, from your standpoint, the updates must be fixes, not feature additions as Talk said may be the case? If they are fixes, does that mean the earlier versions of BD-J were non-compliant?

As far as I know none of the U-Control titles on HD DVD indicated that they needed a firmware update besides the typical warning about using the latest firmware update available. As such it is logical to assume that this will be the policy for most titles released on either HD format.

To add features to the BD-J subsystem, or to fix non-compliance?

Now as for the BD-Live features it depends on what your player supports as to whether those particular features will work. Honestly it should be simple to determine that based on what your player is capable of since PiP will require PiP decoding, downloading movie trailers will require a large amount of persistent storage, and internet features would require internet connectivity.

So how will Joe6P know what his player hardware is capable of, what features he has in his formware, and what a title will need? Wil there be a compatability matrix? Standard labeling? If a specific firmware revision is necessary, are the firmware revs for all player manufacturers going to stay in sync, or would there be specific labeling for each player make/model?

As you told me in the same post a question is not necessarily an attack on a format and I was trying to answer your question. Instead of attacking me read what I post and you will see that I am simply trying to answer your remaining questions.

I saw no answers. I saw "But this was the case with HD DVD as well...". OK, so they have issues also. I want to clearly understand what the issues may be, regardless of format.

Richard Paul

12-10-06, 08:09 PM

PiP is not a BD-Live feature; it's required in all BD players released after June 2007.Well I remember you saying a while ago that PiP was required after a certain date next year but I remember you also used to say that it was a feature of the BD-Live profile. Just to clarify this but did they change it from a feature of BD-Live to a feature that is required in all Blu-ray players after that date?

nataraj

12-10-06, 08:29 PM

Also nataraj has recently been on the warpath against Talkstr8t as seen in this post (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9122815&&#post9122815) from yesterday. Isn't there a forum rule against rude behavior?

If that is rude posting all of you guys should have been suspended long time back.

Afterall you have been calling me names - along with your long lost pal palladin for over a year. You don't even have the civility to apologize ... sheesh. :rolleyes:

Last time you started calling me names - I clearly told you not to talk about me - and I won't respond to your posts. Let us keep it that way - this thread is not meant as a vehicle for your all too obvious hatred for Microsoft.

b2bonez

12-10-06, 08:39 PM

Actually that article sounds like someone else who has sour grapes because they don't like what he says.

That writer criticises The Economist for taking his input because he's on advisory councils to other technology companies, who by the way compete with themselves as well as Sun. Just because he is saying critical things people don't like to hear he doesn't sound like he's necessarily shilling for a paycheck.

Maybe he just likes to be the "grim reaper" of technology - quote from 2004..
http://www.macobserver.com/columns/thebackpage/2004/20040607b.shtml
You knew it was coming: Rob Enderle has let ring his 5th Apple Death Knell in just the last few years. Today's entry in the Apple Death Knell Counter comes in part 5 in the heads up debate between Mr. Enderle and myself in MacNewsWorld's Death Match. This cements Mr. Enderle's lead in the Apple Death Knell Counter; with1/8 of the entries we have chronicled so far, no one else comes even close. As I noted in the ADKC itself, however, there are additional Death Knells from even the last few months that I have not yet entered, but I am betting Mr. Enderle maintains his lead for some time to come.

From 2006...
http://www.economist.com/business/displaystory.cfm?story_id=6768230
Rob Enderle, who runs an eponymous technology consultancy, says that Sun is “like a soccer team that suddenly shows up in the Super Bowl against an [American] football team.” Mr McNealy's slogans are usually right. The network really is becoming the computer. An age of participation may indeed be dawning. The trouble is that Sun, the company, may not be there to witness it.

And a few opinions about Robbie from way back in the Giga days... 2002
http://essaysfromexodus.scripting.com/stories/storyReader$1541
What they're saying about Rob Enderle
Thu, Feb 28, 2002; by Dave Winer.

I finally got so bored with the news I actually had something to say about Rob Enderle. If you want to get on the record about him, send me an email and I'll try to oblige.

Michael Williams: "That guy has always struck me as all hat and no cattle. Drives me nuts to see him quoted as an 'expert.' I'd be shocked if he's ever installed anything more than Windows on a laptop or written any code other than pseudo in an e-mail."

John Robb: "The guy is a carpetbagger quotemill of the worst sort. Nobody ever called him on it until today."

Joe Rotello: "Why don't we just replace him with a large switch marked OFF, and be done with it."

b2b

Richard Paul

12-10-06, 08:44 PM

No, I post to challange information that's inconsistent with what a person has said. Talk maintains there could be new features in the updates. I challange to determine how we would know what the dependancy is from a title perspective.Honestly speaking you are still confused on this issue? Okay, here is a post (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8025284&&#post8025284) that Talkstr8t once made to explain this issue.

If they ain't features, but fixes, then he should state that. In so doing, he'll need to acknowledge Alex is correct regarding the "compliance" issue.Why is it important to you to get him to acknowledge that there might be firmware fixes released for BD-J?

So, from your standpoint, the updates must be fixes, not feature additions as Talk said may be the case? If they are fixes, does that mean the earlier versions of BD-J were non-compliant?Well I don't know whether such features for the Sony player will be for PiP, performance improvements, fixes, or something else. Also if they are fixes that would indicate that the initial version of BD-J was non-compliant, but that would simply put BD-J in the same boat as HDi.

To add features to the BD-J subsystem, or to fix non-compliance?Just to repeat this but U-Control titles were on HD DVD and not Blu-ray. Also my point was that I believe most titles for both formats will just carry a general warning about needing the latest firmware update for the player.

So how will Joe6P know what his player hardware is capable of, what features he has in his formware, and what a title will need? Wil there be a compatability matrix? Standard labeling? If a specific firmware revision is necessary, are the firmware revs for all player manufacturers going to stay in sync, or would there be specific labeling for each player make/model?Well first off all I can do is point at what has been done with HD DVD titles that needed a firmware update to work and note that they didn't list anything about specific models or firmware numbers. As such I assume that Blu-ray titles won't do that either. Also by the time the average consumer starts buying into either HD format the issue of firmware updates will probably be over.

I saw no answers.I gave you information on what I think is likely and what has been done with HD DVD titles that needed a firmware update to work. If you don't believe those are answers than honestly speaking you will have to wait and see how things go next year.

Richard Paul

12-10-06, 09:13 PM

If that is rude posting all of you guys should have been suspended long time back.Come now instead of admitting you went to far going after Talkstr8t you are going to attack me instead?

Afterall you have been calling me names - along with your long lost pal palladin for over a year. You don't even have the civility to apologize ... sheesh. :rolleyes:No offense but if you are going to attack me at least have the nerve to do so without bringing other people into it since I am not going to play the game of defending every post ever made by every Blu-ray supporter. Also I remember plenty of times you called me names but I honestly don't remember any time I called you names. As such I don't really see what you are seeking an apology for in terms of that. Now if you are asking about an apology for my suspicions regarding why you post here to be blunt at the moment that is not going to happen. Your constant attacks against everything related to Blu-ray have done nothing to dispell my suspicions.

Last time you started calling me names - I clearly told you not to talk about me - and I won't respond to your posts. Let us keep it that way - this thread is not meant as a vehicle for your all too obvious hatred for Microsoft.nataraj, I don't know what kind of game you are playing but I don't remember calling you names. Also every time you feel insulted you automatically call me a Microsoft hater when you clearly know that is BS.

Kosty

12-10-06, 09:20 PM

What'sHD

12-10-06, 09:31 PM

A personal request to Richard :) Please consider taking it to PM

If an "argumentative" post is made on the forum publicly, I think its fair that the response should also be on-forum, but perhaps, future discussions can be done via PM. thanks

P.S. It's dashed hard to "ignore" someone's posts if they keep getting quoted. AVS should look into blanking quotes of ignored posts.

Richard Paul

12-10-06, 09:48 PM

A personal request to Richard :) Please consider taking it to PM

If an "argumentative" post is made on the forum publicly, I think its fair that the response should also be on-forum, but perhaps, future discussions can be done via PM. thanksSure, and if nataraj is willing I wouldn't mind continuing to discuss this issue via PM.

kevinca1

12-10-06, 09:51 PM

Reopened, Please follow forum rules.

2Channel

12-11-06, 12:54 AM

Maybe he just likes to be the "grim reaper" of technology - quote from 2004..
http://www.macobserver.com/columns/thebackpage/2004/20040607b.shtml

From 2006...
http://www.economist.com/business/displaystory.cfm?story_id=6768230

And a few opinions about Robbie from way back in the Giga days... 2002
http://essaysfromexodus.scripting.com/stories/storyReader$1541

b2b

There are a number of very opinionated columnists in the business. They tend to make in your face statements because it gets them quoted, gets their articles passed around, etc. In other words it's good for business.

Then there are the sort who avoid taking sides, making predictions, etc. They serve a more purely journalistic function. Regardless, I get that people are upset that he's changed his mind and are now crying foul. Writers who are in your face with predictions will always make some people upset, while pleasing others.

I went back to read Rob's original 6/7/04 article. This was the conclusion.

In the end, Linux represents a threat and an opportunity for every software and hardware company. Apple is once again at the crossroads. While it will take a couple of years before we know whether the company will make the right choice, one thing is clear: Apple's path is about to become vastly more interesting.

There are a few things in his article (from over 2 years ago) that I don't agree with. Most of his assertions I do agree with. The rest of the articles about Rob Enderle are written by people upset with his comments/predictions. Not surprising, but does it proove anything?

I want to leave everyone with one additional thought on this subject. There is no one who is truly neutral, unless they're uninformed on the subject. That goes for journalists, commentators, consumers, insiders, etc. Everyone has a bias on issues. Some people try hard not to let their bias show, others choose to voice their bias for everyone to hear. Do the research, listen to all sides....come to your own conclusions. :)

thomopolis

12-11-06, 01:35 AM

Talk, I believe I may have been selected because of my previous expert panel position at the Home Media Retailer DVD conference earlier this year where I asked some very hard questions and discussed several sensitive issues. I may have also been chosen because of my extremely high volume of HD DVD player sales and good volume of BD player sales.

My threads and posts on avs and other forums have also drawn attention to my opinions.

Officially, I am strictly an independent volume retailer of both formats.

Are you attending the Blu-ray vs. HD DVD and the winner is... session?

-Robert

Hey Robert,

Any idea why Toshiba or maybe MS isn't having anyone on the panel? I'm actually surprised Amir isn't going to be there considering the HD Addon, VC-1, iHD and all.

I attended the session back in January '99 that pitted DVD and Divx. It was rather interesting and entertaining to have Warren Lieberfarb and Richard Sharp
on the same stage sparring - along with the head of Best Buy, a few other pundits, and tech reporters.

It doesn't seem like it will be a truly point/counter point without one of the heads of HD-DVD there to throw some barbs.

Talkstr8t

12-11-06, 01:44 AM

So based on these recent discussions (and obvious confusion), is there any plan for Blu-Ray to provide some education to the consumer explaining which features are supported by which players?I don't formally speak for the BDA. I'd suggest asking at the official Blu-ray blog (http://blogs.zdnet.com/blu-ray/?p=4).

Talkstr8t

12-11-06, 01:48 AM

Are you attending the Blu-ray vs. HD DVD and the winner is... session?I'd definitely like to, but my CES schedule is always very chaotic and I end up missing many sessions I'd like to attend. Monday at noon? I'll certainly try.

Talkstr8t

12-11-06, 01:50 AM

Well I remember you saying a while ago that PiP was required after a certain date next year but I remember you also used to say that it was a feature of the BD-Live profile. Just to clarify this but did they change it from a feature of BD-Live to a feature that is required in all Blu-ray players after that date?It is required in all players conformant to the BD-Live profile (regardless of release date), and in all Blu-ray players released after June 2007.

thomopolis

12-11-06, 01:55 AM

No trying to pour gasoline on anything, but I figured this is the thread to ask this;

Has there been some word of HD-DVD releases slowing down in the new year?

Another thread had a link to high Def Digest release pages and there was 9 for HD-DVD and 39 for BluRay in the months of January and February.

That's quite a difference as these toys are ramping up. So are there some that aren't listed here, or does HD-DVD typically not announce this far in advance?

http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/releasedates.html
http://hddvd.highdefdigest.com/releasedates.html

Full disclosure, if I can't find a PS3 by February (other than Ebay - I hate scalpers)I will probably break down and get a sony or pioneer for the 24P. Can't do without Princess Bride.

So if BD dies, I will have to eat a player.

Talkstr8t

12-11-06, 01:57 AM

So, from your standpoint, the updates must be fixes, not feature additions as Talk said may be the case? If they are fixes, does that mean the earlier versions of BD-J were non-compliant?A firmware upgrade fix doesn't imply non-compliance. Non-compliance means a player failed a test suite. A fix means a bug was found. Test suites aren't perfect, so there will likely always be bugs found even when a player passes the test suite (bugs typically result in new tests being added so that future players will have a more robust test suite). Further, a fix could mean improving performance such that some content runs when it might not have previously. Test suites generally don't factor in performance, so it's certainly possible content will be written which fails on a fully-compliant player.

- Talk

2Channel

12-11-06, 02:15 AM

I don't formally speak for the BDA. I'd suggest asking at the official Blu-ray blog (http://blogs.zdnet.com/blu-ray/?p=4).

Interesting post from Andy Parsons of Pioneer that I found from that link.

http://talkback.zdnet.com/5208-12688-0.html?forumID=1&threadID=27654&messageID=519971

Let's say, for the sake of argument, that one third of the six million units that Sony has said they hope to sell by April '07 will also used to play BD movies on a regular basis. This amounts to two million more BD players in homes on top of all the players sold by other consumer electronics companies, all in just a few short months..........

............And I think one third is conservative -- if the percentage of PS3 consoles used as BD players is higher than one third, this will create even more immediate demand for content.

So it looks like Andy Parsons is hoping that Sony can ship 6 million PS3s by the end of March or start of April as Sony has previously promissed. He's also hoping for at least 33% of those customers to turn into movie buying BD fans. I think he's overly optimistic, and will be disapointed on both points. Time will tell.

b2bonez

12-11-06, 02:20 AM

2Channel

12-11-06, 02:30 AM

OT (sorta) ""Long Tail" phenomenon has long legs"

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20061211/tc_nm/longtail_dc_2

I'll let you read the article, but I think it demonstrates that unless the studios don't move new releases on HD to precede their release on DVD all they are doing is just creating another "long tail" niche that really won't interest the average consumer.

I saw "Dead Man's Chest" at the movies, twice on DVD and right now you couldn't get me to sit through it again (even on HD) unless you gave me a free disc and use of a player to watch it on.

Big Macs and fries don't get better the third time around just because of fancy china and shiny silverware..

b2b

What I found really interesting was the book co-written by Ben McConnell, "Citizen Marketers." (mentioned in passing in the above article)

...........In their provocative new book, Citizen Marketers, Ben McConnell and Jackie Huba explore the ramifications of today's burgeoning social media. As everyday people increasingly create content on behalf of companies, brands, or products—to which they have no official connection—they are turning traditional notions of media upside down. Collaborating with others just like themselves, they are forming ever-growing communities of enthusiasts and evangelists using videos, photos, songs, and animations, as well as the "user-generated media" of blogs, online bulletin boards, and podcasts. From the rough to the sophisticated, their creations are influencing companies' customer relationships, product design, and marketing campaigns—whether the companies participate willingly or not.

Now that looks like an interesting read.

Grubert

12-11-06, 05:41 AM

Sony Blu-ray Recorder Hit Shops in Japan (http://www.cdrinfo.com/Sections/News/Details.aspx?NewsId=19239)

Sony's BDZ-V9 is equipped with a 500GB hard disk drive and supports recording of digital broadcastings to the HDD and single-layer BD-R/RE and of course, play-back of BD video. Price is about 300,000 yen ($2,600).

TomsHT

12-11-06, 07:23 AM

PiP is not a BD-Live feature; it's required in all BD players released after June 2007.

Talk, can you explain what this means to any BR players purchased before June 2007? Will they be updated or just not able to function on any titles that use BD-Live?

hawkeye3.1

12-11-06, 09:38 AM

I saw "Dead Man's Chest" at the movies, twice on DVD and right now you couldn't get me to sit through it again (even on HD) unless you gave me a free disc and use of a player to watch it on.

Couldn't agree more and my hats off to you for sitting through it that many times. I might consider listening to parts of it with my eyes closed if it is given a lossless soundtrack on HD as I did enjoy the score.

Grubert

12-11-06, 10:27 AM

This might have been posted during the weekend:

'Live' interactivity still no-show for Blu-ray (http://www.videobusiness.com/article/CA6398543.html)

TomsHT

12-11-06, 10:38 AM

This might have been posted during the weekend:

'Live' interactivity still no-show for Blu-ray (http://www.videobusiness.com/article/CA6398543.html)

Quote from the artile:

“It will add to the attraction of Blu-ray and keep the ball rolling with the hype,” said Clayton Biele, Fox IT operations manager. “By holiday season of 2007, Blu-ray will be in full force.”

By that time, it’s probable that some Blu-ray manufacturers will roll out BD Live-enabled, next-generation stand-alone players. Additional PS3s should be released into the market through the upcoming holidays.

Sounds like its still at least a year off before it even begins using this

scaesare

12-11-06, 11:13 AM

Honestly speaking you are still confused on this issue? Okay, here is a post (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8025284&&#post8025284) that Talkstr8t once made to explain this issue.

Thanks Richard, I knew the issue had been raised in the past.

In that post, Talk says: "Content requiring one or more of those capabilities on a BD-Video player without support for that capability will either provide a suitable error message, provide reduced capability, or not be available, depending on how the content developer chooses to author the content."

If the update from Sony is providing some of this additional capability, as Talk suggests it might, then it implies that there might be additional capability this player now has. That means it now exists in the Netherworls between BD-Video, and BD-Live. And, I've seen nothing to indicate that existing players will have to upgrade their capability to the same standard that all players sold by June '07 will have.

So, what capability does this player now have, and which of the content scenarios that T alk outlined will take place for which titles? And how will I know this if I want to spend my money on a player or title?

Why is it important to you to get him to acknowledge that there might be firmware fixes released for BD-J?

For the same reason it was important for me to understand which firmware revisions for the Toshiba HD DVD player provided fixes for some titles and might provide additional capability (audio codecs).

So far Talk has maintained that there are no BD-J compliancy issues, whereas Alex has provided evidence there may be. I'd like to know if there are compliance issues in a player before I buy it. From any manufacturer. Perhaps now this player is preferred over the Panasonic? But I don't know...

Well I don't know whether such features for the Sony player will be for PiP, performance improvements, fixes, or something else. Also if they are fixes that would indicate that the initial version of BD-J was non-compliant, but that would simply put BD-J in the same boat as HDi.

Fine, put it in the same boat. As I've already mentioned, Richard, I don't expect that there won't be updates. I want to know what they are for. If they are fixes, then so be it (Alex was right). If they are feature addtions, then what are they?, as we are now in a gray area where there are going to be title dependancies on non-mandatory features, and we have no gurantees from CE manufacturers that they will all support newer features until BD-Live is mandatory on all decks.

Does this mean that I might get a title that plays with all features on a Sony and Pioneer, and not on a Panasonic or Samsung? What if I get another title that only works with all features on the PS3? Does this mean that I have to:

- Buy mutliple players

or

- Wait and not buy until BD-Live is mandatory?

or

- Buy a player and hope the vendor will update with features between now and when new capability is mandatory?

or

- Forego some capability on some title, hoping there is labeling that will tell me which features will work where?

Just to repeat this but U-Control titles were on HD DVD and not Blu-ray. Also my point was that I believe most titles for both formats will just carry a general warning about needing the latest firmware update for the player.

So the latest firmware from all vendors is guranteed to supply all additional capability that every title needs?

Well first off all I can do is point at what has been done with HD DVD titles that needed a firmware update to work and note that they didn't list anything about specific models or firmware numbers. As such I assume that Blu-ray titles won't do that either. Also by the time the average consumer starts buying into either HD format the issue of firmware updates will probably be over.

The key difference is that there is one set of HDi capabilities. Either it works, or doesn't. If it's broken, then the firmware should fix it. I'll expect that as more players (on both formats) roll out, they'll have more mature inplementations of the runtime environments, incorporating more fixes.

If this is the case with the Sony firmware update, I'm fine with that. However, so far given that the intial updates had to be done on the HD DVD side when there was just to Toshiba player means that there was only one vendor to provide a fix (RCA's deck, and their fix, were both just re-labeled Toshiba items). When the XBox addon came out, it ostensibily already incorporated this fix (or prompted a download). In this sense I believe we can justifiably level the criticism that the HDi environment was non-compliant. That, along with the status of avaialable fixes is useful to me as a consumer. It is also useful to me to know that there are no known HDi "features" that are not present to me in my player.

However, Talk has maintained that because there are no known compliance issues with the BD-J environment that these may be feature additions. If so, it would be useful for me to know what they are.

I gave you information on what I think is likely and what has been done with HD DVD titles that needed a firmware update to work. If you don't believe those are answers than honestly speaking you will have to wait and see how things go next year.

And that may be of some concern to potential buyers. You are taking a guess. Alex has some pretty strong indicators. Talk may know more than he is willing to (or can) share. All which leaves the consumer wondering what capability he is guaranteed to have before the middle of '07.

Should I plunk down $1000 now for a player that might never have PiP or the ToasterOven-Link feature? What if in the next month I see lots of titles come out that offer to toast my bread with the richness of a GUI interface? Am I SOL? Will the tile say "Tasty Snack not avaialble on Panasonic and Samsung players."?

scaesare

12-11-06, 11:25 AM

It is required in all players conformant to the BD-Live profile (regardless of release date), and in all Blu-ray players released after June 2007.

Talk, any indication of what a player that is released today, and is updated with some, but not all, BD-Live features would be categorized as?

BD-Video+?

BD-Video/June2007?

It's understandable to the consumer if his player doesn't have a hardware feature (like an ethernet port), that he won't get some functionality. But for others (like PiP, etc...) there are no "external indicators" as to what he has.

If a title has PiP features, will it simply be labeled as BD-Live? How would a consumer know whether his title worked on a player he bought today that he has firmware upgraded?

scaesare

12-11-06, 11:28 AM

A firmware upgrade fix doesn't imply non-compliance. Non-compliance means a player failed a test suite. A fix means a bug was found. Test suites aren't perfect, so there will likely always be bugs found even when a player passes the test suite (bugs typically result in new tests being added so that future players will have a more robust test suite). Further, a fix could mean improving performance such that some content runs when it might not have previously. Test suites generally don't factor in performance, so it's certainly possible content will be written which fails on a fully-compliant player.

- Talk

Umm, but earlier you said THIS (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9120275&&#post9120275) regarding HDi's needing to be upgraded:

A very slight mod, meaning one which makes certain movies work when they didn't before? Doesn't sound so slight to me. Either the initial HD-DVD players (both standalone and PC-based) a) weren't compliant with the HDi spec, b) were compliant with the spec but the compliance tests are incredibly weak, or c) there is some form of unannounced profiling going on where certain HDi features above-and-beyond the spec requirements are being used.

Would you say the same criteria applies to the Sony BD-J update, it it's necessary for some titles to run?

b2bonez

12-11-06, 11:34 AM

HDi + PiP + IME + BD-J + BD Live = zzZzzZZ......

"Wake me up when the movie starts.." ;)

b2b

Kosty

12-11-06, 11:56 AM

OT (sorta) ""Long Tail" phenomenon has long legs"

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20061211/tc_nm/longtail_dc_2

I'll let you read the article, but I think it demonstrates that unless the studios don't move new releases on HD to precede their release on DVD all they are doing is just creating another "long tail" niche that really won't interest the average consumer.

I saw "Dead Man's Chest" at the movies, twice on DVD and right now you couldn't get me to sit through it again (even on HD) unless you gave me a free disc and use of a player to watch it on.

Big Macs and fries don't get better the third time around just because of fancy china and shiny silverware..

b2b Actually B2 I think that it is OT.

I am a big fan of the "long tail theory" in which more and more niche choices exist with the search technology to find them which gives consumers a chance to buy and consume a lot of low volume products.

This favors online distribution (downloads in the future) and online retailers (Amazon and Netflix right now) and I think gives a structural advantage to HD DVD.

If the fixed cost for mastering Blu-ray discs is higher and their are more limited facilities to produce Blu-ray disks exist, then Blu-ray is geared toward the major blockbuster hit model.

If HD DVD can be mastered at lower costs, can be produced on more lines and at less cost for shorter and niche production runs, then a HD DVD pressing can make money even when the title is pressed on shorter runs. Or it can be repressed as needed at a lower cost.

The "long tail theory" in the long run favors online distribution, but who knows how fast it will take hyper bandwidth to arrive to make it possible. In the meantime transitional models like Netflix and Amazon using the post office and parcel carriers can support massive inventories of low volume products and make a profit from them.

HD DVD has an advantage over Blu-ray in the "long tail model' because of lower costs and its similarity to DVDs which is an already low cost, low volume capable, cost effective production mass manufactured product.

Blu-ray is geared toward hits, HD DVD can work with hits but also prosper with the long tail sales.

b2bonez

12-11-06, 12:16 PM

Actually B2 I think that it is OT.

I am a big fan of the "long tail theory" in which more and more niche choices exist with the search technology to find them which gives consumers a chance to buy and consume a lot of low volume products.

This favors online distribution (downloads in the future) and online retailers (Amazon and Netflix right now) and I think gives a structural advantage to HD DVD.

If the fixed cost for mastering Blu-ray discs is higher and their are more limited facilities to produce Blu-ray disks exist, then Blu-ray is geared toward the major blockbuster hit model.

If HD DVD can be mastered at lower costs, can be produced on more lines and at less cost for shorter and niche production runs, then a HD DVD pressing can make money even when the title is pressed on shorter runs. Or it can be repressed as needed at a lower cost.

The "long tail theory" in the long run favors online distribution, but who knows how fast it will take hyper bandwidth to arrive to make it possible. In the meantime transitional models like Netflix and Amazon using the post office and parcel carriers can support massive inventories of low volume products and make a profit from them.

HD DVD has an advantage over Blu-ray in the "long tail model' because of lower costs and its similarity to DVDs which is an already low cost, low volume capable, cost effective production mass manufactured product.

Blu-ray is geared toward hits, HD DVD can work with hits but also prosper with the long tail sales.

Did you actually read and understand the meaning of my post Kman or just saw it as opportunity to replay the "HD-DVD discs are cheaper" pre-recorded message ??

The issue is.. Will Hollywood start giving HD discs top billing (first release status for new movies) or are they just creating another "long tail" niche market with DVD still being the "head" ??

Turn off the spin machine for a minute and give it a think... ;)

b2b

John Williams

12-11-06, 12:21 PM

HDi + PiP + IME + BD-J + BD Live = zzZzzZZ......

"Wake me up when the movie starts.." ;)

b2b

AMEN!!

I don't care $0.02 for any of the "new" interactive features, I just want a great looking and sounding movie that starts when I want it to. And quite frankly, the old style commentary tracks are fine for me instead of some annoying pop-up talking head. That way, I can actually see what they're talking about, after all!

How hard is it for studios to understand that some of us just want to watch the film??

:confused:

-John

PS: Just bought a BDP-S1 this weekend and I love it!

TomsHT

12-11-06, 12:31 PM

AMEN!!

I don't care $0.02 for any of the "new" interactive features, I just want a great looking and sounding movie that starts when I want it to. And quite frankly, the old style commentary tracks are fine for me instead of some annoying pop-up talking head. That way, I can actually see what they're talking about, after all!

How hard is it for studios to understand that some of us just want to watch the film??

:confused:

-John

PS: Just bought a BDP-S1 this weekend and I love it!

Huh, its an extra option. You dont have to use it or listen to the commentary unless you activate it during the movie.

John Williams

12-11-06, 12:33 PM

Huh, its an extra option. You dont have to use it or listen to the commentary unless you activate it during the movie.

Sure, I'm just saying I'm not going to get my knickers in a twist about BD-Live or PiP or anything else not being available in a particular player.

I'm vastly more interested in the actual movie (cake) than the fancy new features (frosting, or sprinkles). That's why I bought it, after all!!

-John

crussader

12-11-06, 12:42 PM

HDi + PiP + IME + BD-J + BD Live = zzZzzZZ......

"Wake me up when the movie starts.." ;)

But I thought all this extra stuff was the reason BDs capacity advantage was so important?

TomsHT

12-11-06, 12:42 PM

Sure, I'm just saying I'm not going to get my knickers in a twist about BD-Live or PiP or anything else not being available in a particular player.

I'm vastly more interested in the actual movie (cake) than the fancy new features (frosting, or sprinkles). That's why I bought it, after all!!

-John

Agreed, the movie is most important. I havent used any of these commentary features during a movie but would be inerested in seeing live content such as being able to watch previews of current time movies if that type of internet interactivity ever becomes available for these players.

wco81

12-11-06, 12:55 PM

If they have to film peole doing commentary, then production costs will be much higher. They have to hire a filming crew, makeup people, studio time, etc.

That means those costs are passed on.

Kosty

12-11-06, 01:04 PM

Did you actually read and understand the meaning of my post Kman or just saw it as opportunity to replay the "HD-DVD discs are cheaper" pre-recorded message ??

The issue is.. Will Hollywood start giving HD discs top billing (first release status for new movies) or are they just creating another "long tail" niche market with DVD still being the "head" ??

Turn off the spin machine for a minute and give it a think... ;)

b2b Not spinning as fast as you are ;)

Just thought I would share the logical implications of your reference to long tail theory. I think HD DVD has an advantage there, even if it doesn't effect the outcome of the format war.

If HD DVD thrives, I think that the long tail will eventually transition to HD DVD as it becomes the industry standard for shiny discs. If Blu-ray dominates I think the long tail of shiny disc movies will stay in standard definition DVD because of the cost of Blu-ray mastering and replication and the lack of production lines.

The issue is.. Will Hollywood start giving HD discs top billing (first release status for new movies) or are they just creating another "long tail" niche market with DVD still being the "head" ??
I think that until the studios start releasing both the HD and standard DVD version at the same time, it will slow a little bit the adoption rate of HD. But I don't think it matters much now, because of the low penetration rate of the HD players in either format.

I think more and more studios will release in HD DVD and Blu-ray and standard DVD at the same time as the HD production lines increase and more players are sold. I think soon all major releases will be done that way.

P.S. "HD-DVD discs are (probably) cheaper (to master, author and replicate)" based on their physical similarity to DVDs at least in the short term than Blu-ray discs which need new mastering ,replication and manufacturing techniques that are currently being done at a more limited amount of production facilities.

Kosty

12-11-06, 01:07 PM

Originally Posted by b2bonez
HDi + PiP + IME + BD-J + BD Live = zzZzzZZ......

"Wake me up when the movie starts.." But I thought all this extra stuff was the reason BDs capacity advantage was so important? Gee if all you want is a 3 hour HD movie withh great picture and audio quality on a shiny disc, you can certainly fit that on a 30 GB DL HD DVD disc using VC-1.

So what's the advantage of Blu-ray again? It can't be cost......

b2bonez

12-11-06, 01:12 PM

Not spinning as fast as you are ;)

Just thought I would share the logical implications of your reference to long tail theory. I think HD DVD has an advantage there, even if it doesn't effect the outcome of the format war.

If HD DVD thrives, I think that the long tail will eventually transition to HD DVD as it becomes the industry standard for shiny discs. If Blu-ray dominates I think the long tail of shiny disc movies will stay in standard definition DVD because of the cost of Blu-ray mastering and replication and the lack of production lines.

I think that until the studios start releasing both the HD and standard DVD version at the same time, it will slow a little bit the adoption rate of HD. But I don't think it matters much now, because of the low penetration rate of the HD players in either format.

I think more and more studios will release in HD DVD and Blu-ray and standard DVD at the same time as the HD production lines increase and more players are sold. I think soon all major releases will be done that way.

P.S. "HD-DVD discs are (probably) cheaper (to master, author and replicate)" based on their physical similarity to DVDs at least in the short term than Blu-ray discs which need new mastering ,replication and manufacturing techniques that are currently being done at a more limited amount of production facilities.

Well I guess you can't come off your "talking points" long enough to understand this is a format agnostic issue.

Never mind..... :rolleyes:

b2b

b2bonez

12-11-06, 01:27 PM

Gee if all you want is a 3 hour HD movie withh great picture and audio quality on a shiny disc, you can certainly fit that on a 30 GB DL HD DVD disc using VC-1.

So what's the advantage of Blu-ray again? It can't be cost......

First things first.. Get the car running and then you can add-on the radio, A/C, mud-flaps, power antenna and moon roof... all those things take extra HP to get them to work...

Think "Bigger and Faster" is better than "smaller and slower" ;)

b2b

2Channel

12-11-06, 02:20 PM

First things first.. Get the car running and then you can add-on the radio, A/C, mud-flaps, power antenna and moon roof... all those things take extra HP to get them to work...

Think "Bigger and Faster" is better than "smaller and slower" ;)

b2b

I look at it differently. I have seen through experience that Occam's razor generally applies in these competitive market place scenarios.

"All things being equal, the simplest solution tends to be the best one."

kdragon

12-11-06, 02:31 PM

I look at it differently. I have seen through experience that Occam's razor generally applies in these competitive market place scenarios.

"All things being equal, the simplest solution tends to be the best one." I will have to agree with this. Now we can argue whether "all things being equal" applies or not, and what is "the simplest solution"! :)

Kosty

12-11-06, 02:31 PM

Same or better performance, cheaper price.

Hmmmm, which has the advantage? ;)

wco81

12-11-06, 02:35 PM

Believe me, VHS wasn't simpler than Beta.

To avoid the patented U-Matic tape path around the helical scan heads, JVC used a path shaped like an "M."

Grubert

12-11-06, 02:53 PM

Lite-On IT launches its first BD burner in Japan (http://www.digitimes.com/systems/a20061211PD202.html)
Lite-On IT recently launched its LH-2B1S serial ATA Blu-ray Disc (BD) Triple Writer, the company's first BD burner, in Japan at a retail price of 70,000 yen (US$600), with the price significantly lower than BD burners offered by other vendors, according to industry sources in Taiwan.

*********

Dell Moves Beyond High Definition with Blu-Ray Enabled Multimedia Notebook (http://www.dell.com/content/topics/global.aspx/corp/pressoffice/en/2006/2006_12_11_rr_000?c=us&l=en&s=corp)
This holiday season, customers worldwide can purchase Dell XPS M1710 notebooks configured with Blu-ray technology. Pricing starts at approximately US$3,699.

b2bonez

12-11-06, 02:59 PM

I look at it differently. I have seen through experience that Occam's razor generally applies in these competitive market place scenarios.

"All things being equal, the simplest solution tends to be the best one."

That's the point, things aren't equal..

"Bigger and Faster" is better than "smaller and slower"

Besides, Occam isn't building HD players anyway.. ;)

b2b

mcsporfut

12-11-06, 03:26 PM

First things first.. Get the car running and then you can add-on the radio, A/C, mud-flaps, power antenna and moon roof... all those things take extra HP to get them to work...

Think "Bigger and Faster" is better than "smaller and slower"

Except in the case of blu-ray today if I want that moon roof I might have to buy a new car.
I don't mind being an early adopter, but I won't be early cannon fodder

Unless Sony or whomever will buy back my out of spec. blu-ray player.. :rolleyes:

b2bonez

12-11-06, 03:51 PM

Except in the case of blu-ray today if I want that moon roof I might have to buy a new car.
I don't mind being an early adopter, but I won't be early cannon fodder

Unless Sony or whomever will buy back my out of spec. blu-ray player.. :rolleyes:

My sentiments exactly... :)

b2b

Richard Paul

12-11-06, 05:04 PM

Another thread had a link to high Def Digest release pages and there was 9 for HD-DVD and 39 for BluRay in the months of January and February.

That's quite a difference as these toys are ramping up. So are there some that aren't listed here, or does HD-DVD typically not announce this far in advance?Well because of additions, delays, and surprise announcements I would be hesitant to judge either HD format based on what has been announced for the future in terms of titles. It is much safer just to wait until the end of the month and count up what titles have been released for each format.

Talk, can you explain what this means to any BR players purchased before June 2007? Will they be updated or just not able to function on any titles that use BD-Live?Just to point this out but PiP is not the same as BD-Live since BD-Live is a profile of requirements for a player. Also all Blu-ray discs can play on any Blu-ray player but certain extra features (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8025284&&#post8025284) may not work depending upon the player that is used.

If a title has PiP features, will it simply be labeled as BD-Live?Well since PiP is a feature that can be found on a BD-Video player I would say probably not. In fact I don't think titles will be listed as BD-Live and instead they will probably just list what features that title has.

I don't mind being an early adopter, but I won't be early cannon fodder

Unless Sony or whomever will buy back my out of spec. blu-ray player.. :rolleyes:Well I don't think that Sony is going to release an out of spec Blu-ray player so you have little to worry about. Now if on the other hand you want all of the feature possible with a BD-Live player it would be best to either buy a PS3 or wait for a stand alone Blu-ray player. Also just to point this out but BD-Live does have higher requirements than HD DVD for both PiP and persistent storage so I don't think it is fair to be that hard on Blu-ray for having two profiles for players.

scaesare

12-11-06, 05:38 PM

Well since PiP is a feature that can be found on a BD-Video player I would say probably not. In fact I don't think titles will be listed as BD-Live and instead they will probably just list what features that title has.

Are there any current examples of this you are aware of?

And how does one know what features you have above and beyond BD-Video in your player today? Take the Sony + firmware update. What is that player capable of?

Richard Paul

12-11-06, 05:45 PM

If the update from Sony is providing some of this additional capability, as Talk suggests it might, then it implies that there might be additional capability this player now has. That means it now exists in the Netherworls between BD-Video, and BD-Live.Well it is quite possible for a BD-Video player to have one or more of the features of a BD-Live player. On the other hand a BD-Live player has to have three of the major features (PiP, at least 1 GB of persistent storage, and internet connectivity).

So, what capability does this player now have, and which of the content scenarios that T alk outlined will take place for which titles? And how will I know this if I want to spend my money on a player or title?Well if you want to wait and find out how things go with current Blu-ray players that makes sense if PiP is a feature that you want.

- Forego some capability on some title, hoping there is labeling that will tell me which features will work where?I think most of the time you will be able to tell right off the bat what features will or will not work on a particular player. For instance a player that can't decode PiP video or have an ethernet connector will not be able to play a PiP video stream or go online to download movie trailers.

So the latest firmware from all vendors is guranteed to supply all additional capability that every title needs?Of course not, and I was simply saying that titles on both formats will probably just carry a general warning about needing a firmware update and not any type of specific information for individual players.

The key difference is that there is one set of HDi capabilities. Either it works, or doesn't. If it's broken, then the firmware should fix it. I'll expect that as more players (on both formats) roll out, they'll have more mature inplementations of the runtime environments, incorporating more fixes.There is an advantage to having only one profile for HD DVD but we are talking about something that does not actually match BD-Live in terms of requirements. As such if you compare HD DVD to BD-Live and say that one is required and the other is optional you should also note that more is required with BD-Live.

It is also useful to me to know that there are no known HDi "features" that are not present to me in my player.It is true that HD DVD has only one profile, and if PiP and internet connectivity is important to you that is something that is useful to know. Still anyone who cares about extra features could also just wait for a BD-Live player.

And that may be of some concern to potential buyers.Sure, though in my opinion if someone is willing to wait until this fall before getting a HD player than they should do so regardless of which format they are interested in.

onanie

12-11-06, 05:51 PM

Are there any current examples of this you are aware of?

And how does one know what features you have above and beyond BD-Video in your player today? Take the Sony + firmware update. What is that player capable of?

My impression is that BD-Video is a basic requirement from the CE makers, not a marketing point for consumers. The CE maker is free to offer features beyond the standard profile, and to make it clear in their product description. The same would be true of BD-Live, where online features will be advertised as such (and not as "BD-Live" necessarily). If one is concerned with the details as a consumer, then BD-Live ought to mean "BD-Video plus online features" as a minimum.

As I understand it, PIP is a requirement of BD-Video that has been delayed in favour of launching early. It will be enforced on CE makers by June 07. If firmware can be upgraded, then I imagine PIP function could be added to bring the player in line with the updated profile. It is that simple, no?

Richard Paul

12-11-06, 05:54 PM

Are there any current examples of this you are aware of?No, but considering BD-Live is a player profile I don't think we will see discs being labelled using that term.

And how does one know what features you have above and beyond BD-Video in your player today? Take the Sony + firmware update. What is that player capable of?Won't know until the firmware update is actually released. In fact I don't even know if the PS3 will be capable of PiP, 1 GB of persistent storage, or internet connectivity though technically speaking it should be capable of all three.

What'sHD

12-11-06, 06:54 PM

I look at it differently. I have seen through experience that Occam's razor generally applies in these competitive market place scenarios.

"All things being equal, the simplest solution tends to be the best one."
But things aren't equal. If HD-DVD had as many studios as BD, then we could plausibly say that things (from perspective of J6P) are equal. But from the videophile perspective, things will never be equal.

P.S. I thought Occam's razor says in effect that: "All things being equal, the simplest explanation is likely to be the correct one". That is, its a pithy restatement of probability theory, and since it is derived from probability, it is not a law. The "solution" in the quote you used (ref: wikipedia) actually refers not to an engineering solution but a theory that explains a phenomenon.

Either way, your point is valid that given equality, the marketplace will choose the simpler technology. Two flaws with applying that to this war are that things are not equal cos J6P loves its movie diversity and in terms of ease-of-use, both formats are equally easy for users.

thomopolis

12-11-06, 07:13 PM

Or stated more succinctly;

what is the simpler event:

getting Universal to go neutral, CE's eventually lowering prices on BD players to meet demand, improving movie quality consistancy

or

getting Disney, Fox, and Sony to go neutral, getting other CE's to make players, getting studios to no gouge for hybrid discs (not an issue for BD since they can't make them)

I just don't see how you will get Sony to switch unless BD is dead, and i don't see how BD will ever be dead with the PS3 being sold.

2Channel

12-11-06, 07:19 PM

But things aren't equal. If HD-DVD had as many studios as BD, then we could plausibly say that things (from perspective of J6P) are equal. But from the videophile perspective, things will never be equal.

P.S. I thought Occam's razor says: "All things being equal, the simplest explanation is likely to be the correct one". That is, its a pithy restatement of probability theory, and since it is derived from probability, it is not a law.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_Razor

The principle is often expressed in Latin as the lex parsimoniae (law of succinctness):

entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem,

which translates to:

entities should not be multiplied beyond necessity.

This is often paraphrased as "All things being equal, the simplest solution tends to be the best one." In other words, when multiple competing theories are equal in other respects, the principle recommends selecting the theory that introduces the fewest assumptions and postulates the fewest hypothetical entities. It is in this sense that Occam's razor is usually understood.

It is interesting how much response this one got. Let me break it down.

All things being equal = PQ and AQ, remember those? Somehow the BD folks always stray away from the fundamentals.

the simplest solution tends to be the best one = the solution that is easier, cheaper and faster to produce.

As for the studios, I've said it plenty of times before, but here it goes again. I'm not watching the studio, I'm watching the movies. Which format has more movies? I know, I know.....in the future..........everything about BD is in the future.

6 million PS3s - in the future
33% BD adoption rate on PS3 - in the future
more movie content than HD-DVD - in the future
more disc sales than HD-DVD - in the future
BD-Live - in the future
PiP - in the future
low cost stand alone players - in the future
Sony using advanced codecs - in the future
world domination - in the future

b2bonez

12-11-06, 07:27 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_Razor

The principle is often expressed in Latin as the lex parsimoniae (law of succinctness):

entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem,

which translates to:

entities should not be multiplied beyond necessity.

This is often paraphrased as "All things being equal, the simplest solution tends to be the best one." In other words, when multiple competing theories are equal in other respects, the principle recommends selecting the theory that introduces the fewest assumptions and postulates the fewest hypothetical entities. It is in this sense that Occam's razor is usually understood.

It is interesting how much response this one got. Let me break it down.

All things being equal = PQ and AQ, remember those? Somehow the BD folks always stray away from the fundamentals.

the simplest solution tends to be the best one = the solution that is easier, cheaper and faster to produce.

As for the studios, I've said it plenty of times before, but here it goes again. I'm not watching the studio, I'm watching the movies. Which format has more movies? I know, I know.....in the future..........everything about BD is in the future.

6 million PS3s - in the future
33% BD adoption rate on PS3 - in the future
more movie content than HD-DVD - in the future
more disc sales than HD-DVD - in the future
BD-Live - in the future
PiP - in the future
low cost stand alone players - in the future
Sony using advanced codecs - in the future
world domination - in the future

If Occam were still alive he would be starting a petition and web site to convince Universal to go neutral... the simple solution ;)

b2b

BenDover

12-11-06, 07:45 PM

If Occam were still alive he would be starting a petition and web site to convince Universal to go neutral... the simple solution ;)

b2b

lol

[EDIT: I've not kept up during the weekend and I find myself strangely demotivated for doing so...this thread should probably be closed never to be revived again; start up news threads in each of the respective forum areas limiting postings to "news"...the bickering will never cease otherwise]

skogan

12-11-06, 08:04 PM

lol

[EDIT: I've not kept up during the weekend and I find myself strangely demotivated for doing so...this thread should probably be closed never to be revived again; start up news threads in each of the respective forum areas limiting postings to "news"...the bickering will never cease otherwise]

I don't have the stamina or interest to keep posting here, really. Since the players and movies are out, I spend more time watching them then posting about them. If you like it, get it. If not don't. What more is there to say? Is there anything new someone can post that hasn't been covered? I don't think so.

mcsporfut

12-11-06, 08:17 PM

Well I don't think that Sony is going to release an out of spec Blu-ray player so you have little to worry about. Now if on the other hand you want all of the feature possible with a BD-Live player it would be best to either buy a PS3 or wait for a stand alone Blu-ray player. Also just to point this out but BD-Live does have higher requirements than HD DVD for both PiP and persistent storage so I don't think it is fair to be that hard on Blu-ray for having two profiles for players.

So what I'm starring at right now is BD-lite??
Wish I'd of realized that before I dropped a grand...
Oh well..Caveat Emptor............

What'sHD

12-11-06, 08:40 PM

It is interesting how much response this one got. Let me break it down.

All things being equal = PQ and AQ, remember those? Somehow the BD folks always stray away from the fundamentals.

the simplest solution tends to be the best one = the solution that is easier, cheaper and faster to produce.
I agree with your point that the simplest solution is the best one. But that is not what OR says or is about. Its an application of probability theory as used to decide between two equally valid theories for some physical phenomenon. Also, even if we do use the New OR, as you are, BD is engineering-wise a more complex solution but from winning-the-war perspective, BD is the easier winner now that the technology has been worked out.

New OR could have been applied to this war Before BD50, Cell etc. had been perfected (and it was, I remember the "debates"). But, its pointless to use it after the engineers have mastered the technology.

Btw, PQ and AQ is only equal for now (yes, it was worse for BD earlier) cos neutral studios are not encoding for BD separately. And no, present HD-DVD titles are not transparent to source.

What'sHD

12-11-06, 08:47 PM

2channel, I did reference wikipedia already cos I knew the quote would be mis-understood and it has been.

If someone wants a good explanation of OR, watch Contact. OR is not about deciding which engineering solution is better After both competing solutions have been made to work. OR should be used when a decision has to be made on which route to follow for an engineering solution.

HD-DVD forum obviously used it (to choose the format specs), while BDA didn't, preferring for whatever reason to believe that their engineers could make Cell, BD50 work. Bravo, I say.. the PS3 is an engineering marvel thanks to that attitude. And its cheap

P.S. Yes, lots of things are in the future with BD and crucially, they are all good. Here's one thing that is in the future for HD-DVD as I see it: "dearth of movies compared to BD"

onanie

12-11-06, 09:03 PM

2channel, I did reference wikipedia already cos I knew the quote would be mis-understoof and it has been.

If someone wants a good explanation of OR, watch Contact. OR is not about deciding which engineering solution is better After both competing solutions have been made to work. OR should be used when a decision has to be made on which route to follow for an engineering solution.

HD-DVD forum obviously used it, while BDA didn't, preferring for whatever reason to believe that their engineers could make Cell, BD50 work. Bravo, I say.. the PS3 is an engineering marvel thanks to that attitude. And its cheap

P.S. Yes, lots of things are in the future with BD and crucially, they are all good. Here's one thing that is in the future for HD-DVD as I see it: "dearth of movies compared to BD"

I'm not sure that OR is exclusive to HD DVD engineers. On one level, for the desired goal of dual layer technology with 50GB capacity, the easiest engineering solution would have been chosen.

Once the technology is established (as it has), then the fact that HD DVD had seemingly aimed lower (and worshipped by many for exactly this) was probably justifiable before-the-fact, but how could it still be celebrated now?

But great points nonetheless. For the most part, the future of BD had arrived, with more to look forward to (despite efforts to deny the vision).

What'sHD

12-11-06, 09:24 PM

I'm not sure that OR is exclusive to HD DVD engineers. On one level, for the desired goal of dual layer technology with 50GB capacity, the easiest engineering solution would have been chosen.
You are right. My statement is misleading.

What I mean is that before this format war started, applying OR would have led to HD-DVD as the "OR-ed" choice.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with using OR before the fact. Its the responsible thing to do. My bad if my intent was not clear. What is wrong however is applying OR after the engineering is done and dusted. That's incomprehension or twisting of OR.

HD-DVD supporters made a fair choice (wrt OR guidance) in 2004 by choosing HD-DVD. What was probably left out of the decision by the neutrals was the fact that OR is only a probabilistic guide. A more complex solution, if engineered well, can be better, especially long-term.

When people said 18 months ago that BD50 & Cell were not possible cheaply and on-time, I wavered significantly cos OR pointed to HD-DVD as way more likely to be available on-time (2006) then. But luckily, BD50 and PS3 were out before I had to vote with my wallet.. phew. Good execution as I see it.

What'sHD

12-11-06, 09:28 PM

If Occam were still alive he would be starting a petition and web site to convince Universal to go neutral... the simple solution ;)

b2b
I feel inspired. I feel a double-barreled petition coming on

What'sHD

12-11-06, 09:49 PM

1. 6 million PS3s - in the future
2. 33% BD adoption rate on PS3 - in the future
3. more movie content than HD-DVD - in the future
4. more disc sales than HD-DVD - in the future
5. BD-Live - in the future
6. PiP - in the future
7. low cost stand alone players - in the future
8. Sony using advanced codecs - in the future
9. world domination - in the future
forgive me for numbering your points but its easier to comment that way.

1. As are 10M 360s. When sony sells 6M, you will say how 10M or whatever no. of 360s have been sold are in the future for PS3. A weak argument, imo.

2. Well, since PS3 has been selling for a whole month and most are lying under trees or on ebay, I'd say you are being dramatic or impatient.

3. Fair enough. But, are you ready to buy a BD player when BD movies outnumber HD movies 2 to 1?

4. This will follow when 3 happens or mass-market acceptance takes place.

5. True, but I don't care, and I am so sure J60 does not either.

6. Same as 5.

7. What I find interesting is that you say its only about PQ and AQ (for customers) and then turn around and offer a very typically non-J6P perspective of wanting a stand-alone player. PS3 as BD player will not do, for some reason. I dont think J6P thinks that way and I think you know that. Those that do should buy from one of the many makers of HD-DVD stand-alone players. Btw, anyone can turn this around and say, equally unreasonably, that non-toshiba players are perennially in the future for HD-DVD and no end in sight.

8. Fair enough, but wouldn't it be aweome when some of the great Sony-owned films come out in AVC with BD-maximal bitrate? Imagine the PQ and AQ :)

9. I don't care and I don't think any of us HD-lovers do either. We don't want BD to die cos it offers the potential for better PQ than HD. HD has great PQ too But that is no reason to not strive upwards and onwards.

This is the only main-stream high def format war ever. Put your money carefully. If you are allied due to corporate loyalties, I have nothing to say. I would be a vociferous HD supporter too if I worked for Toshiba.

onanie

12-11-06, 10:22 PM

Indeed, the future looks bright, for blu-ray.

scaesare

12-11-06, 10:25 PM

Well since PiP is a feature that can be found on a BD-Video player I would say probably not. In fact I don't think titles will be listed as BD-Live and instead they will probably just list what features that title has.

And a person will be expected to know what features a player has based on firmware updates from each individual CE vendor?

Will titles have some standard convention for listing these requirements, or will different studios call them different things?

scaesare

12-11-06, 10:40 PM

Well it is quite possible for a BD-Video player to have one or more of the features of a BD-Live player. On the other hand a BD-Live player has to have three of the major features (PiP, at least 1 GB of persistent storage, and internet connectivity).

Well if you want to wait and find out how things go with current Blu-ray players that makes sense if PiP is a feature that you want.

I think most of the time you will be able to tell right off the bat what features will or will not work on a particular player. For instance a player that can't decode PiP video or have an ethernet connector will not be able to play a PiP video stream or go online to download movie trailers.

Actually I think that's a very problematic area. How does a person look at his player today and decide if he has PiP support? Turn it over and look between it's legs?

Seriously, I suspect if you ask a significant portion of owners if their Blu-Rapy player didn't support PiP they'd have no idea it doesn't.

Of course not, and I was simply saying that titles on both formats will probably just carry a general warning about needing a firmware update and not any type of specific information for individual players.

There is an advantage to having only one profile for HD DVD but we are talking about something that does not actually match BD-Live in terms of requirements. As such if you compare HD DVD to BD-Live and say that one is required and the other is optional you should also note that more is required with BD-Live.

It is true that HD DVD has only one profile, and if PiP and internet connectivity is important to you that is something that is useful to know. Still anyone who cares about extra features could also just wait for a BD-Live player.

Sure, though in my opinion if someone is willing to wait until this fall before getting a HD player than they should do so regardless of which format they are interested in.

I think you are drastically underestimating how confusing this will be for folks. just look at how clueless many people are about what "Enhanced for Widescreen" means. And you want them to managage multiple variables for the lifetime of the machines they buy today?

I'll agree with you on one thing... people will just end up waiting.

onanie

12-11-06, 10:43 PM

And a person will be expected to know what features a player has based on firmware updates from each individual CE vendor?

Will titles have some standard convention for listing these requirements, or will different studios call them different things?

I suspect any person would know if they've bought a standard player, or one that is capable of online services. I imagine a title's offered features would be listed as simply as "PIP" or "online updates". It is that simple.

scaesare

12-11-06, 10:51 PM

My impression is that BD-Video is a basic requirement from the CE makers, not a marketing point for consumers. The CE maker is free to offer features beyond the standard profile, and to make it clear in their product description. The same would be true of BD-Live, where online features will be advertised as such (and not as "BD-Live" necessarily). If one is concerned with the details as a consumer, then BD-Live ought to mean "BD-Video plus online features" as a minimum.

As I understand it, PIP is a requirement of BD-Video that has been delayed in favour of launching early. It will be enforced on CE makers by June 07. If firmware can be upgraded, then I imagine PIP function could be added to bring the player in line with the updated profile. It is that simple, no?

So people should look for players that advertise "PiP capable"? Or "Persistent Storage Enabled"?

And if they buy a Samsung today, is there any guarantee I'll get thsoe features in the future? A Panasonic?

So, in January, my daughter get's Cinderella on BR, and it includes the Princess TeaParty, and she goes online and creates a character to save and use in the included BD-J game on the disc, all on her PS3. And then she goes to a friends house, but her daddy's Pioneer doesn't have Interent enabled, so the TeaParty doesn't work. So they go to another friend's house, and their Panasonic player does go online, but doesn't have the persistent storage necessary to store the characters to use in the game.

Are you saying that the average person being encourage to plunk down $800-$1500 for a player today will be expected to navigate these issues? And how exactly will this be presented on the title's label for me as the frusterated father to try to sort out?

scaesare

12-11-06, 10:53 PM

No, but considering BD-Live is a player profile I don't think we will see discs being labelled using that term.

Won't know until the firmware update is actually released. In fact I don't even know if the PS3 will be capable of PiP, 1 GB of persistent storage, or internet connectivity though technically speaking it should be capable of all three.

Yet it's being sold today as a premier BR player. While I suspect this will move Sony to add these features, there is no guarantee. And this would seem to be the case for all decks... this is undefined territory for rather expensive pieces of hardware.

Ezra

12-11-06, 10:53 PM

Better to "contain and control"... That way the mods keep us surrounded. :D

b2b

How about ya'll start your own thread to maintain this bickering? That way the rest of us don't have to read all of this in the event that there may be some actual "news"?

onanie

12-11-06, 10:54 PM

So people should look for players that advertise "PiP capable"? Or "Persistent Storage Enabled"?

And if they buy a Samsung today, is there any guarantee I'll get thsoe features in the future? A Panasonic?

So, in January, my daughter get's Cinderella on BR, and it includes the Princess TeaParty, and she goes online and creates a character to save and use in the included BD-J game on the disc, all on her PS3. And then she goes to a friends house, but her daddy's Pioneer doesn't have Interent enabled, so the TeaParty doesn't work. So they go to another friend's house, and their Panasonic player does go online, but doesn't have the persistent storage necessary to store the characters to use in the game.

Are you saying that the average person being encourage to plunk down $800-$1500 for a player today will be expected to navigate these issues? And how exactly will this be presented on the title's label for me as the frusterated father to try to sort out?

Again, one only needs to know if one has a standard player (the majority of the population) or a player that is online enabled. One should not be disappointed if an online feature does not work on a standard player.

scaesare

12-11-06, 11:06 PM

I suspect any person would know if they've bought a standard player, or one that is capable of online services. I imagine a title's offered features would be listed as simply as "PIP" or "online updates". It is that simple.

I think you are grossly overestimating: 1) What the average person is willing to do to familiarize themselves with their hardware, and underestimating: 2) the confusion and frusteration people will have in trying to determine what their $1000 is capable of and why things don't "just work".

lymzy

12-11-06, 11:09 PM

In other news, Warner decide to delay the 11 bluray releases this Dec.22 in Japan. Warner also decide to delay 4 of the 11 HD DVD releases on that date. As for the reason for the bluray delay, quote "unknown author problems"
http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20061211/whv.htm

rdjam

12-11-06, 11:10 PM

Wheew - yes, the constant battling is tiring. Better to watch movies :)

Besides, based on price, HD DVD is winning the popularity contest - I'll bet a round of drinks at CES that the PS3 doesn't ship anywhere near 1 million units by then... :)

I think BR sales will get near HD - but I think that HD will start pulling ahead again in January...

scaesare

12-11-06, 11:11 PM

Again, one only needs to know if one has a standard player (the majority of the population) or a player that is online enabled. One should not be disappointed if an online feature does not work on a standard player.

But that's not what Talk has suggested is the case nor what Richard seems to be arguing either.

They suggest a subset of BD-Live features may be added by firmware upgrades now. But not every CE may do so. Nor may they enable all the features (for instance, if the hardware has no persistent storage, or no hardware capable of PiP).

So are you stating that as long as a player is "Online Enabled" ,then a consumer can be assured of the fact that all "Additional Requirements" that may be listed on a title's jacket will work, becasue the player will be updated?

And every CE vendor will guarantee this?

onanie

12-11-06, 11:25 PM

But that's not what Talk has suggested is the case nor what Richard seems to be arguing either.

They suggest a subset of BD-Live features may be added by firmware upgrades now. But not every CE may do so. Nor may they enable all the features (for instance, if the hardware has no persistent storage, or no hardware capable of PiP).

So are you stating that as long as a player is "Online Enabled" ,then a consumer can be assured of the fact that all "Additional Requirements" that may be listed on a title's jacket will work, becasue the player will be updated?

And every CE vendor will guarantee this?

What "subset" of BD-Live features have yet to be added in before the first BD-Live player comes out?

A player is either a plain one (BD-Video) or an online one (BD-Live). A title may offer "online services" available only to "online enabled players".

2Channel

12-11-06, 11:25 PM

forgive me for numbering your points but its easier to comment that way.

1. As are 10M 360s. When sony sells 6M, you will say how 10M or whatever no. of 360s have been sold are in the future for PS3. A weak argument, imo.

2. Well, since PS3 has been selling for a whole month and most are lying under trees or on ebay, I'd say you are being dramatic or impatient.

3. Fair enough. But, are you ready to buy a BD player when BD movies outnumber HD movies 2 to 1?

4. This will follow when 3 happens or mass-market acceptance takes place.

5. True, but I don't care, and I am so sure J60 does not either.

6. Same as 5.

7. What I find interesting is that you say its only about PQ and AQ (for customers) and then turn around and offer a very typically non-J6P perspective of wanting a stand-alone player. PS3 as BD player will not do, for some reason. I dont think J6P thinks that way and I think you know that. Those that do should buy from one of the many makers of HD-DVD stand-alone players. Btw, anyone can turn this around and say, equally unreasonably, that non-toshiba players are perennially in the future for HD-DVD and no end in sight.

8. Fair enough, but wouldn't it be aweome when some of the great Sony-owned films come out in AVC with BD-maximal bitrate? Imagine the PQ and AQ :)

9. I don't care and I don't think any of us HD-lovers do either. We don't want BD to die cos it offers the potential for better PQ than HD. HD has great PQ too But that is no reason to not strive upwards and onwards.

This is the only main-stream high def format war ever. Put your money carefully. If you are allied due to corporate loyalties, I have nothing to say. I would be a vociferous HD supporter too if I worked for Toshiba.

I'll assume you haven't followed all of this thread as it is very long. I'll try to keep this brief and I will not comment on this again. I regret all of the wasted space taken up by this discussion, so I have misgivings even posting these final comments.

1. Yet another Sony promise (YASP) to deliver 6 million PS3s by the end of their fiscal year (end of March). I have a hard time believing they have the ability to deliver, based on the fact that they've yet to meet even one of their PS3 volume promises.

2. Andy Parsons projection for 33% BD adoption rates. With how few PS3s Sony is able to make, I understand why Andy is hoping adoption rates are so high. Disc sales at the end of Q1 07 will give us some indication of what's going on.

3. I'm ready to buy a PS3 now. I've posted this a number of times.

4. Ok

5. YASP

6. YASP

7. We don't agree on this one. I don't believe many people will buy a PS3 if they want to buy a BD player. I did recommend this to a friend who wants a BD player. He though I was crazy at first but came to understand my point. He was a little dissapointed that this means he'll have to wait months before getting one though.

8. Sony has a big investment in MPEG2 hardware, so I don't see them doing anything but MPEG2 for the foreseeable future. That's why Don Eklund (Sony) spends so much time defending MPEG2.

9. Ok

Are you suggesting I work for one of the companies involved with HD-DVD? If so, you're incorrect. I post because there is news piece after news piece showing that Sony is over promissing and under delivering. If they are so bad on following through on their promises when they have competition, what would they be doing if they didn't have competition?

Moving on now........

onanie

12-11-06, 11:35 PM

I'll assume you haven't followed all of this thread as it is very long. I'll try to keep this brief and I will not comment on this again. I regret all of the wasted space taken up by this discussion, so I have misgivings even posting these final comments.

1. Yet another Sony promise (YASP) to deliver 6 million PS3s by the end of their fiscal year (end of March). I have a hard time believing they have the ability to deliver, based on the fact that they've yet to meet even one of their PS3 volume promises.

2. Andy Parsons projection for 33% BD adoption rates. With how few PS3s Sony is able to make, I understand why Andy is hoping adoption rates are so high. Disc sales at the end of Q1 07 will give us some indication of what's going on.

3. I'm ready to buy a PS3 now. I've posted this a number of times.

4. Ok

5. YASP

6. YASP

7. We don't agree on this one. I don't believe many people will buy a PS3 if they want to buy a BD player. I did recommend this to a friend who wants a BD player. He though I was crazy at first but came to understand my point. He was a little dissapointed that this means he'll have to wait months before getting one though.

8. Sony has a big investment in MPEG2 hardware, so I don't see them doing anything but MPEG2 for the foreseeable future. That's why Don Eklund (Sony) spends so much time defending MPEG2.

9. Ok

Are you suggesting I work for one of the companies involved with HD-DVD? If so, you're incorrect. I post because there is news piece after news piece showing that Sony is over promissing and under delivering. If they are so bad on following through on their promises when they have competition, what would they be doing if they didn't have competition?

Moving on now........

I'm not sure how Sony downsizing their launch numbers could have offended you personally. Every technological promise (and be glad that they strive for more) are being delivered. The war isn't pivotal on something as temporary as launch figures (and neither should sentiments among stable individuals), though some people badly want it to be.

2Channel

12-11-06, 11:38 PM

scaesare

12-11-06, 11:41 PM

What "subset" of BD-Live features have yet to be added in before the first BD-Live player comes out?

A player is either a plain one (BD-Video) or an online one (BD-Live). A title may offer "online services" available only to "online enabled players".

Well, Talk has said:

Within BD-Video there are a few features which are optional today but become mandatory for players initially released after June, 2007. PiP is probably the most significant of these features. Therefore, PiP support could, in theory, be provided by an upcoming firmware update, and would be required to support any titles making use of PiP.

And Richard has said:

Well it is quite possible for a BD-Video player to have one or more of the features of a BD-Live player. On the other hand a BD-Live player has to have three of the major features (PiP, at least 1 GB of persistent storage, and internet connectivity).

These are NOT online services. They are the delivery of additional player features via firmware upgrade. That could be online, or via an upgrade disc.

Do you maintain that it's still a simple matter that a player simply has to be "Online Enabled", in order to play any and all titles that require one of more of these optional capabilities?

I count 8 possible permutations of capability a player might have, from BD-Video to BD-Live.

onanie

12-11-06, 11:42 PM

TG Daily Top-10: Technology disappointments of 2006

Sony made it to the #1 spot!

http://www.tgdaily.com/2006/12/11/tgd_top_10_2006_disappointments/page10.html

While its is still to early to make the call which of the two high-definition formats will win, HD DVD has won the first round and, at least at this time, is the more attractive high-definition format of the two.

According to the one and only Wolfgang Gruener, whoever he is. One does not doubt that PS3 was highly anticipated. But again, were you personally hurt by Sony's downsizing their launch numbers?

onanie

12-11-06, 11:51 PM

Well, Talk has said:

And Richard has said:

These are NOT online services. They are the delivery of additional player features via firmware upgrade. That could be online, or via an upgrade disc.

Do you maintain that it's still a simple matter that a player simply has to be "Online Enabled", in order to play any and all titles that require one of more of these optional capabilities?

I count 8 possible permutations of capability a player might have, from BD-Video to BD-Live.

One still only needs to be concerned with two player options. Standard and online.

The technical step from BD-Video to BD-Live is just two technical features - internet and storage. I imagine a player wishing to be more than just BD-Video, might as well be called a BD-live device.

An online enabled player (ie. BD-Live) will be able to play anything. That is all you need to know.

Richard Paul

12-12-06, 12:08 AM

So what I'm starring at right now is BD-lite??Well BD-J can do a lot of things in terms of interactivity, but it is true that a BD-Video player will not be able to do everything that a BD-Live player can do.

And a person will be expected to know what features a player has based on firmware updates from each individual CE vendor?Well there is only three features that can be added and if the player does not have an ethernet connector that leaves only two.

Will titles have some standard convention for listing these requirements, or will different studios call them different things?Good question, and we will have to wait and see what the studios actually call them.

Actually I think that's a very problematic area. How does a person look at his player today and decide if he has PiP support?Well at the moment there is no way to know.

Seriously, I suspect if you ask a significant portion of owners if their Blu-Rapy player didn't support PiP they'd have no idea it doesn't.No need for that type of humor, but you are probably right that most people wouldn't know the exact details of what their player could do. That though could be said for most of the owners of both HD formats.

And you want them to managage multiple variables for the lifetime of the machines they buy today?Not at all, by this summer I rather doubt any of the current Blu-ray players released will have further firmware updates adding anything significant.

So, in January, my daughter get's Cinderella on BR, and it includes the Princess TeaParty, and she goes online and creates a character to save and use in the included BD-J game on the disc, all on her PS3. And then she goes to a friends house, but her daddy's Pioneer doesn't have Interent enabled, so the TeaParty doesn't work. So they go to another friend's house, and their Panasonic player does go online, but doesn't have the persistent storage necessary to store the characters to use in the game.

Are you saying that the average person being encourage to plunk down $800-$1500 for a player today will be expected to navigate these issues? And how exactly will this be presented on the title's label for me as the frusterated father to try to sort out?That is an interesting scenario though I would point out that if someone is really that interested in such interactivity from their Blu-ray player they should wait for a BD-Live player to be released. Also with that scenario we are getting into the type of interactivity that HDi probably isn't even capable of doing.

Richard Paul

12-12-06, 12:35 AM

Yet it's being sold today as a premier BR player.Well people are optimistic about the PS3's future possibilities in terms of Blu-ray, but I don't think anything official was ever announced about Sony adding all those features to it.

One still only needs to be concerned with two player options. Standard and online.Technically speaking, until June of next year, it is possible for a Blu-ray player to have internet connectivity but neither PiP or a GB of persistent storage.

2Channel

12-12-06, 12:47 AM

According to the one and only Wolfgang Gruener, whoever he is. One does not doubt that PS3 was highly anticipated. But again, were you personally hurt by Sony's downsizing their launch numbers?

I view it as just one more example of a culture of corporate arrogance. A culture that feels it's ok to claim they have twice as many systems available right at the launch than they actually do. A culture that claims that Mpeg2 is the bomb. A culture that puts out BD launch titles with bad PQ. A culture that feels no need to bundle a BD movie with the PS3 that actually has good PQ. A culture, in short, that views its customers as dupes who only need to be won over with advertising dollars. This kind of corporate culture will not strive for better quality without competition. But hey, that's just my point of view. ;)

onanie

12-12-06, 01:02 AM

Welcome to America... Been here long ?? :D

b2b

LOL

What'sHD

12-12-06, 01:47 AM

Are you suggesting I work for one of the companies involved with HD-DVD? If so, you're incorrect. I post because there is news piece after news piece showing that Sony is over promissing and under delivering. If they are so bad on following through on their promises when they have competition, what would they be doing if they didn't have competition?

Moving on now........
No, I wasn't suggesting that. Just an observation that I hope people who do not have corporate loyalties dictating their HD format-support should be careful about the reasons they use to pick a format. Those who work for Toshiba/RCA/MS are highly unlikely to pick BD in any situation.

I agree Sony is underdelivering on promises so far. But lets also remember that Sony promised the moon. So, I am willing to be patient in return for better technology.

If Sony do not have enough PS3s available in Singapore by March 2007, I am going to be pissed but I will wait on. I already ordered the add-on cos I want HD content.

OT: I don't believe corporate promises too much. Its a recipe for frustration. If I had done so, I would have switched to OS X by now instead of waiting for Vista, for example. But Vista was worth waiting for (imo) cos it offered all the eye candy of OS X, good features of OS X and best of all, MCE, which I can't live without. So, I gritted my teeth waiting for Vista and my reward is all-round compatibility and a glorious OS.

Similarly, once I figured BD50 and Cell would be possible in 2006, I decided to support BD due to its loftier techincal goals. I dont game much but I am gonna get me a PS3. And I have convinced HD lovers amongst my friends to do the same.

Tongue-firmly-in-cheek: Corporate promises get broken? Really!? You mean people are out to over-promise and under-deliver whenever they can? Get OUT!

I will never love again.. oh wait, I mean trust fortune 500 corporations again.

Rob Zuber

12-12-06, 01:50 AM

This kind of corporate culture will not strive for better quality without competition.There is competition. It's called DVD, cable, satellite TV, FIOS, IPTV, etc. HD-DVD not required.

What'sHD

12-12-06, 01:54 AM

5. YASP

6. YASP

Why are BD-live, PiP etc. Sony's promises and not BDA's? nice

Rest of it, we pretty much agree on. You think PS3 will not be bought by people to watch BD and I think it will if it remains the cheapest player in 2007 with all the cutting-edge features.

DTV TiVo Dealer

12-12-06, 02:43 AM

There is competition. It's called DVD, cable, satellite TV, FIOS, IPTV, etc. HD-DVD not required.

Rob, I would guess from this post that you have not enjoyed in your own home BD or HD DVD as they produce a far better image and audio than any and all of the above referenced sources.

-Robert

Grubert

12-12-06, 05:24 AM

Toshiba HD DVD European Consumer Website is up: www.highdefinitiondvd.eu

WiFi-Spy

12-12-06, 06:41 AM

Rob, I would guess from this post that you have not enjoyed in your own home BD or HD DVD as they produce a far better image and audio than any and all of the above referenced sources.

-Robert

Maybe in the U.S. , but I have a few friends in Europe that get great OAR Mpeg4 AVC movies that rival HD DVD/BD from their sat. providers.

BenDover

12-12-06, 07:41 AM

maybe someone can come up with an equivalent for the HD DVD vs. Blu-ray Disc debate ;)

http://www.engadget.com/2006/12/12/dutch-art-company-releases-dinner-conversation-dvd-for-solo-di/

rdjam

12-12-06, 07:52 AM

There is competition. It's called DVD, cable, satellite TV, FIOS, IPTV, etc. HD-DVD not required.
Hah! :D That's the kind of competition Bluray can handle... :p

In other news, Sony up to it's usual tricks again...

http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/games/archives/2006/12/11/new_sony_viral_marketing_ploy_angers_consumers.html

"New Sony viral marketing ploy angers consumers"

Remember the fake movie reviewer, etc, etc? Now Sony's been caught putting fake customers online to talk up their products on forums - oh, the shock of it all :)

Ezra

12-12-06, 08:10 AM

Don't get in the middle of "inside jokes". It's rude and uncalled for...

You want news ?? OK...

VP "insider" reveals to Bill Hunt of the Digital Bits that for Disney "Blu-Ray" is the "Right Way" and gives HD-DVD the "highway"... Video at 11... ;)

b2b

I think you summed it up nicely, you and a couple of others have turned this thread into one long "inside joke".

But you have set me straight, I shall no longer bother coming here to get "HiDef News".

markrubin

12-12-06, 08:22 AM

Don't get in the middle of "inside jokes". It's rude and uncalled for...

Enough

take your inside jokes off AVS

Members: my apologies for this behavior: this thread is for HD DVD News: and is open to all

this thread may have a short life if this keeps up :mad:

and certain members may lose their posting privileges as well: this has gone too far

thread title edited

robena

12-12-06, 08:52 AM

Maybe in the U.S. , but I have a few friends in Europe that get great OAR Mpeg4 AVC movies that rival HD DVD/BD from their sat. providers.

I get Sky HD, and it's true that the video can be good.

But not as good as HD-DVD, and the audio is very far behind, especially with the 50Hz 4% speed-up.

The number of available movies is also already way behind HD-DVD, so it's no contest.

The only thing that these HD channels can do it actually give you an appetite for HD, and accelerate the acceptance of HD-DVD, and BR once it will start to deliver good quality recordings more regularly.

scaesare

12-12-06, 10:03 AM

One still only needs to be concerned with two player options. Standard and online.

The technical step from BD-Video to BD-Live is just two technical features - internet and storage. I imagine a player wishing to be more than just BD-Video, might as well be called a BD-live device.

An online enabled player (ie. BD-Live) will be able to play anything. That is all you need to know.

Really?

I thought Talk and Richard have maintained that PiP is part of the Live profile as well?

So If I buy the Panasonic today, and (assuming consumers are even aware of this, which I doubt) know it's BD-Video, but I also know that when I first instlled it I got a firmware update, what is my player?

What if that update delivered PiP... what is my player now? If I see a title that's simply labeled "Requires BD-Live", is it going to work in my player with all features?

scaesare

12-12-06, 10:19 AM

Well BD-J can do a lot of things in terms of interactivity, but it is true that a BD-Video player will not be able to do everything that a BD-Live player can do.

Well there is only three features that can be added and if the player does not have an ethernet connector that leaves only two.

So, simply having a ethernet connector is a guarantee that it's enabled for Live usage, and isn't just there for frimware updates?

Good question, and we will have to wait and see what the studios actually call them.

Well at the moment there is no way to know.

No need for that type of humor, but you are probably right that most people wouldn't know the exact details of what their player could do. That though could be said for most of the owners of both HD formats.

And this, Richard, is the crux of my argument. As you admit, there is much uncertainty around what a person is getting today, or will get, for thier $1000. I have NEVER seen a player advertisement disclose that it's a "BD-Video Only" player at a store, or online. Have you? Do you think even a fraction of those buying them have any idea these seperate profiles even exist? Much less Talks scenario where only some features may be added to a player via update?

You ignore a key difference with your "both HD formats" comment, however: There is a single HDi profile day 1. There is no plan for there ever to be a title that won't work on the very first HD DVD player sold.

Can a player's implementation be broken? yes. On both formats... but it's an order of magnitude easier to get vendor to fix a problem with a current implementation, than to get them to add one that was never promised up front.

I suspect there are going to be a lot of unhappy people around when they discover their high-end next-gen disc player doesn't work for Princess Tea Party.

Not at all, by this summer I rather doubt any of the current Blu-ray players released will have further firmware updates adding anything significant.

Then your thoughts, and Talks suggestion are somewhat at odds.

That is an interesting scenario though I would point out that if someone is really that interested in such interactivity from their Blu-ray player they should wait for a BD-Live player to be released. Also with that scenario we are getting into the type of interactivity that HDi probably isn't even capable of doing.

(For context: Richard's reply here was regarding my propsed scenario of Princess Tea party behaving differently on my daighter's friend's players)

So if someone IS interested I that type of activity, where is there ANY indication from CE vendors today that they aren't going to get it now and should wait perhaps a year before buying?

I'll leave the HDi jab alone.

scaesare

12-12-06, 10:21 AM

Well people are optimistic about the PS3's future possibilities in terms of Blu-ray, but I don't think anything official was ever announced about Sony adding all those features to it.

Me neither.

rdjam

12-12-06, 10:27 AM

thread title edited
Wise move, Mark.

http://www.engadgethd.com/2006/12/11/hd-dvd-and-blu-ray-releases-on-december-12th-2006/
HD DVD and Blu-ray releases on December 12th, 2006

I didn't see this next one 3 days ago...

http://tech.yahoo.com/blog/null/8779;_ylt=AtcmuGpioNoidPV6bgViob2dL5A5
HD-DVD Winning Out in High-Def Format Wars?

Grubert

12-12-06, 10:42 AM

hometheaterblog: Toshiba's HD-A2: First Impressions (http://www.hometheaterblog.com/hometheater/2006/12/toshibas_hda2_f.html)

Kosty

12-12-06, 11:08 AM

http://www.hometheaterblog.com/hometheater/2006/12/toshibas_hda2_f.html

Just to parse the significance of those fiirst impressions.

It looks like Toshiba has managed to correct all the major complaints of the first generation HD A1. Startup and load times, cludgy remote and responsiveness to commands.

First off the new player loads much faster than the HD-A1 or HD-XA1, .....20 seconds or under, on-par with some of the Denon DVD players we’re so fond of. It looks like sluggish load-times are a thing of the past at least with the A2 and XA2. Slow boot up and load times corrected. Check

The A2’s remote was also an improvement; this remote resembles a, well, for lack of a better term a DVD remote, go figure. Cludgy remote fixed. Check.

Overall we were quite satisfied with the A2’s performance and found that it operated much more like a standard DVD player, with of course the added benefit of pumping out gorgeous HD images Player responsiveness to menus. Check.

If error checking and audio sync issues have also improved, the 1st generation issues seem to have been squashed. :)

Now I just have to hear how the HD XA2 is improved over the HD A2 and the HD XA1.

Their initial review to compare
http://www.hometheaterblog.com/hometheater/2006/04/toshiba_hda1_re.html

rdjam

12-12-06, 11:41 AM

And to top it off, even better upscaling - not too shabby.

Kosty

12-12-06, 12:55 PM

And to top it off, even better upscaling - not too shabby. Thats my biggest fear that the simplier SOC components would somehow compromise on the upscaling capablity.

I think the 1st generation upscaling is superb. That's a significant differention for the entry level Blu-ray player, the PS3, which doesn't upscale. The RCA clone, even had " upscale your existing DVDs to near HD quality " right on the box.

If its even better in the 2nd generation, then wow.

Upscaling capability can be used by salespeople to upsell a consumer who is already considering a high end upconverting SD DVD player. If you were already committed to buying a new upconverting player to go along with your new HDTV, for a couple hundred bucks more you might be able to be talked into getting a upconverting player that also plays those new fangled HD DVDs to go along with you HD TV.

mikemorel

12-12-06, 02:32 PM

Glass Houses: Blu-ray or HD DVD? What the Market Needs to Know (http://www.emedialive.com/Articles/ReadArticle.aspx?ArticleID=12153)

Some new quotes from Andy Parsons and Mark Knox (back from his tour of Antarctica I guess :confused: ).

Quote from Andy Parsons:

PlayStation 3 may be the first glimpse some consumers get of Blu-ray, and according to Parsons, PlayStation adds an extra million (estimated) players in the marketplace by the end of the year added to players from Samsung, Panasonic, Philips, Sony, and Pioneer. I guess Andy might have been a little overzealous at the beginning of this year :p .

Pioneer exec expects 4 to 7 million PS3s by end of '06 (http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=14159)
-----------------------------------------------------
and from Michael Mitchell of Sony DADC:

Sony DADC has six 50GB Blu-ray Disc production lines up and running (Adam Sandler's Click is a 50GB disc). The company is currently ramping up production to 60K discs per day. "We are encouraged by the performance of both our 25GB single-layer and 50GB dual-layer production technologies, both of which are meeting our expectations," ssays Michael Mitchell, executive VP, manufacturing and engineering for Sony DADC. Still "ramping up" to 10K discs per day per line, and that is meeting Sony's expectations (not to mention hard coat costs)...I hope we can put an end to speculation that BD-50 is somehow cheap...

Rio

12-12-06, 02:51 PM

But, isn't BD50 a violation of law of physics and science fiction? :rolleyes:

mikemorel

12-12-06, 03:09 PM

But, isn't BD50 a violation of law of physics and science fiction? :rolleyes:Apparently not, just a very expensive optical disc.

Richard Paul

12-12-06, 03:27 PM

So, simply having a ethernet connector is a guarantee that it's enabled for Live usage, and isn't just there for frimware updates?No, what I said was that the absence of an ethernet connector would mean that it isn't capable of internet connectivity.

And this, Richard, is the crux of my argument. As you admit, there is much uncertainty around what a person is getting today, or will get, for thier $1000. I have NEVER seen a player advertisement disclose that it's a "BD-Video Only" player at a store, or online. Have you? Do you think even a fraction of those buying them have any idea these seperate profiles even exist?No, and I certainly have no problem with people understanding that there are two profiles for Blu-ray. In the same way that I believe people should understand the positives and negatives of anything they are thinking of buying. At the same time though a lot of HD DVD supporters use this as a way to attack Blu-ray without understanding just how much is required from a BD-Live player.

Much less Talks scenario where only some features may be added to a player via update?Well just to defend this but isn't having something that wasn't originally there added to a player a good thing?

You ignore a key difference with your "both HD formats" comment, however: There is a single HDi profile day 1. There is no plan for there ever to be a title that won't work on the very first HD DVD player sold.Actually all Blu-ray movies are designed to play on BD-Video players and it is only some of the extras that might now work. Which is why if you are interested in Blu-ray extras that I would recommend waiting for a BD-Live player.

So if someone IS interested I that type of activity, where is there ANY indication from CE vendors today that they aren't going to get it now and should wait perhaps a year before buying?

I'll leave the HDi jab alone.Please don't leave the so called "HDi jab" alone since it is the root of the matter in this issue. A BD-Live player will most likely be capable of interactivity not possible on a HD DVD player so this is something that should be mentioned by those attacking the two profile nature of Blu-ray. You can't look at the negatives of something and than ignore the positives and still give a fair picture of why the the BDA made two profiles for Blu-ray. At the same time though I have no problem with people promoting the fact that better Blu-ray players will come out next year.

wco81

12-12-06, 03:28 PM

Apparently not, just a very expensive optical disc.

Are the retail prices or average selling prices of BD-50 reflecting these high costs?

How much more are they than the comparable BD-25 release or the HD-DVD release?

Rio

12-12-06, 03:47 PM

Apparently not, just a very expensive optical disc.Do you know the actual costs of BD50 and combo HD30/DVD9 discs?

Grubert

12-12-06, 04:03 PM

-Mr and Mrs Smith, Ice Age, Dodgeball and Commando (delayed from January) for March 13, according to highdefdigest (http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/Fox/Disc_Announcements/Mr._&_Mrs._Smith,_Dodgeball_Lead_Fox_March_Blu-ray_Wave/389)

-The Departed (HD DVD and Blu-ray) will be released Feb. 13 or 20, according to davisdvd.

mikemorel

12-12-06, 04:13 PM

Do you know the actual costs of BD50 and combo HD30/DVD9 discs?As long as they are "ramping up" BD-50 to 10,000 discs a day it is impossible to speculate how much it costs, as it could be 2,000 or 8,000 discs/day. Hard coat costs are speculative, as well.

Combo discs? who wants these? From Singulus brochure (http://www.singulus.de/pdf/spaceline2/spaceline2.pdf) however,

(as of June 2006)

Performance HD DVD:
Cycle Time: 3.50 s
Guarantees: 90 % Yield / 90 % Uptime
Output: 20,000

lymzy

12-12-06, 04:29 PM

Combo discs? who wants these? From Singulus brochure (http://www.singulus.de/pdf/spaceline2/spaceline2.pdf) however,

(as of June 2006)

Performance HD DVD:
Cycle Time: 3.50 s
Guarantees: 90 % Yield / 90 % Uptime
Output: 20,000

I believe combo HD DVD was at 75% yields and 5s cycle. Above was for SL/DL HD DVD. For BD-DL, 80% yields was singulus' goal EOY. No cycle time. DADC said they could do DL at around 80%. No cycle time was given.

scaesare

12-12-06, 04:30 PM

No, what I said was that the absence of an ethernet connector would mean that it isn't capable of internet connectivity.

No, and I certainly have no problem with people understanding that there are two profiles for Blu-ray. In the same way that I believe people should understand the positives and negatives of anything they are thinking of buying. At the same time though a lot of HD DVD supporters use this as a way to attack Blu-ray without understanding just how much is required from a BD-Live player.

Well just to defend this but isn't having something that wasn't originally there added to a player a good thing?

Actually all Blu-ray movies are designed to play on BD-Video players and it is only some of the extras that might now work. Which is why if you are interested in Blu-ray extras that I would recommend waiting for a BD-Live player.

Please don't leave the so called "HDi jab" alone since it is the root of the matter in this issue. A BD-Live player will most likely be capable of interactivity not possible on a HD DVD player so this is something that should be mentioned by those attacking the two profile nature of Blu-ray. You can't look at the negatives of something and than ignore the positives and still give a fair picture of why the the BDA made two profiles for Blu-ray. At the same time though I have no problem with people promoting the fact that better Blu-ray players will come out next year.

At this point, it's clear that BD players today aren't obviously disclosing that they won't enable all features of BluRay titles in the future, there is no general consensus on how to identify what players a feature might have, nor any way to discover dependancies that exist in the nether-profile that lies between BD-Video and BD-Live (up to 8 variations, inclusive).

Nobody here can define these, which means most consumers have about a 5% chance for having a clue. And this depite players currently being sold for significant sums of money.

scaesare

12-12-06, 04:36 PM

Talkstr8t-

I'm interested in your reply to THIS (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9137682&&#post9137682) question.

I'd like to know why your different take on what appear to be the same sorts of issues.

Thanks.

Rio

12-12-06, 05:03 PM

As long as they are "ramping up" BD-50 to 10,000 discs a day it is impossible to speculate how much it costs, as it could be 2,000 or 8,000 discs/day. Hard coat costs are speculative, as well.

Combo discs? who wants these? From Singulus brochure (http://www.singulus.de/pdf/spaceline2/spaceline2.pdf) however,

(as of June 2006)

Performance HD DVD:
Cycle Time: 3.50 s
Guarantees: 90 % Yield / 90 % Uptime
Output: 20,000It seems that the number you quoted is not for DL/DL combo disc. Why I asked you about DL/DL combo is, it requires some sort of similar process utilized in BD50 replication. BTW, what does the "Output" mean? Does it indicate maximum output per day?
I believe combo HD DVD was at 75% yields and 5s cycle. Above was for SL/DL HD DVD. For BD-DL, 80% yields was singulus' goal EOY. No cycle time. DADC said they could do DL at around 80%. No cycle time was given.If those numbers are accurate,

Output of DL/DL combo = 20,000 x 3.5/5 x 75/90 = 11,666

Hmm, it looks quite similar number to the DADC's output claim for BD50.

Anyway, where is the valid price/cost for us to declare "a very expensive optical disc"? Would anyone don't mind if I state "A2 is very expensive player to make"? ;)

RobertR1

12-12-06, 05:05 PM

Talk aside, the end product needs to speak for itself. I'll be curious to see how many titles by the end of 2006 will be authored in BD-J, then how many from Jan 1 2007 - June 07. And what those ratios are in comparison to regular titles.

wco81

12-12-06, 05:43 PM

At this point, it's clear that BD players today aren't obviously disclosing that they won't enable all features of BluRay titles in the future, there is no general consensus on how to identify what players a feature might have, nor any way to discover dependancies that exist in the nether-profile that lies between BD-Video and BD-Live (up to 8 variations, inclusive).

Nobody here can define these, which means most consumers have about a 5% chance for having a clue. And this depite players currently being sold for significant sums of money.

Then don't buy any of them.

BTW, there won't be any reviews or any communications about features, including likely software upgrades, right?

dialog_gvf

12-12-06, 05:52 PM

Richard Paul

12-12-06, 06:02 PM

At this point, it's clear that BD players today aren't obviously disclosing that they won't enable all features of BluRay titles in the future,Just as no product ever advertises what it can't do.

there is no general consensus on how to identify what players a feature might have,Well that is only for features that might be added to an already shipped player and I am pretty sure they will advertise those features on a player that ships with them on day one.

nor any way to discover dependancies that exist in the nether-profile that lies between BD-Video and BD-Live (up to 8 variations, inclusive).Which is why if you care about extras on Blu-ray it is best to buy a BD-Live player.

Nobody here can define these, which means most consumers have about a 5% chance for having a clue. And this depite players currently being sold for significant sums of money.Welcome to the wonderful world of being an early adopter in which many people don't even know the differences between Blu-ray and HD DVD.

amillians

12-12-06, 06:54 PM

Useless trivia for today:

1. There are actually three BD device profiles. Not two. The third one never gets any airtime, though. So little, in fact, the BDA themselves aren't even sure anymore if it's really a profile.

2. It's impossible to quote the cost of a BD50, because it's produced by one vendor, keen on bringing Soviet Union economics back in vogue. Moot point, though, so long as Sony is willing to eat the delta for the other studios.

lymzy

12-12-06, 07:20 PM

because it's produced by one vendor,

If every title were on DL-50GB, DADC should still be more than capable to cover the 25k-50k per title volume given its 60k/day capability. But I couldn't blame DADC for eating the delta. It is good for the consumers. :)

Richard Paul

12-12-06, 07:27 PM

1. There are actually three BD device profiles. Not two. The third one never gets any airtime, though. So little, in fact, the BDA themselves aren't even sure anymore if it's really a profile.Alex, are you sure about that? Also if you are what exactly is required from this third profile and what is it called?

BenDover

12-12-06, 07:55 PM

Alex, are you sure about that? Also if you are what exactly is required from this third profile and what is it called?

it is called "bd rom profile 3" of course...

scaesare

12-12-06, 08:41 PM

Then don't buy any of them.

BTW, there won't be any reviews or any communications about features, including likely software upgrades, right?

Well, problem is, I might like to. And I'm the "Tech Guy" for most of my family and many friends. So what do I tell Dad when he wants to know if he should plonk down some cash on BR player today?

"Well, if you do, they are going to start making discs that have additional features the players today don't have, that they may or may not update to support these features, and there's no clear indication that you will be able to know before you buy either a player or a title in the next 7 months if all the features on the title will work on the player you have. If that makes you a little nervous, the general consnsus is don't buy until the middle of the next calendar year."

Seriously, is THAT the message the BR consortium wants to get across? I mean that's the real advice people are giving here... out of necessity it appears .

And, no I'm not saying there will be no communication but business is being done TODAY. The reality is:

- There are players now being sold with no clear indication to consumers that they are BD-Video

- There is no clear indication if these players have the hardware to even spport all of the -Live features in the future, or if the vendors are willing to commit to do so

-There are titles now that are BD-Video only

- Future titles will require one or more additional BD-J capabilites for all the features to work

- A BD insider has suggested that firmware updates that are being announced NOW may be adding some subset of these capabilites, but what those may be are not being disclosed

- There is no published plan for labeling to allow a consumer to know what features a title will require, other than perhaps "BD-Live", in which case a consumer will either have to take his chance purchasing the title and see if it may play his player that has one of these "mystery firmware updates", or he can go the safe route and scrap his current player and buy another one in 7 months.

Seriously.. the time for commuincation is NOW. Or more accurately some time back when Samsung first started accepting their customer's credit cards without anybody telling them they will have a "next gen" player that will only be capable of playing a subset of all the features that will be avialable on BR discs in a just a few months.

Talkstr8t

12-12-06, 08:45 PM

Talk, can you explain what this means to any BR players purchased before June 2007? Will they be updated or just not able to function on any titles that use BD-Live?June 2007 has nothing to do with BD-Live. BD-Live machines must have ethernet and PiP support regardless of release date. Non-BD-Live machines released after 6/07 must have PiP. I wouldn't be surprised to see some currently-available players assumed to lack PiP support actually be capable of such support.

Regarding titles, worst case if your player doesn't support a feature, it doesn't mean the whole disc doesn't work, just that you don't get that feature.

scaesare

12-12-06, 08:48 PM

Just as no product ever advertises what it can't do.

Unless there's a general expectation that it should be able to. I understand "Talk up you stregths" marketing... but do you really think somebody who buys a $1000 player for Xmas today is going to be pleased that it doesn't even allow him to see the PiP director commentary on a movie in 6 months ??

Well that is only for features that might be added to an already shipped player and I am pretty sure they will advertise those features on a player that ships with them on day one.

Which is why if you care about extras on Blu-ray it is best to buy a BD-Live player.

Welcome to the wonderful world of being an early adopter in which many people don't even know the differences between Blu-ray and HD DVD.

Exactly Richard... EXACTLY.. they don't know that, yet in the previous sentence you expect them to know the difference between BD-Video and BD-Live. :rolleyes:

Do me a favor, and point me to any readily avaialble sources (advertisements, overviews from CE vendors, etc... ) that specifies what profiles a player has, would you? You know... one that would hepl a consumer to decide to wait to buy a BD-Live player.

scaesare

12-12-06, 08:54 PM

June 2007 has nothing to do with BD-Live. BD-Live machines must have ethernet and PiP support regardless of release date. Non-BD-Live machines released after 6/07 must have PiP. I wouldn't be surprised to see some currently-available players assumed to lack PiP support actually be capable of such support.

Regarding titles, worst case if your player doesn't support a feature, it doesn't mean the whole disc doesn't work, just that you don't get that feature.

So, is there any deadline for BD-Live players? I'll assume if that JUST PiP is mandatory for 6/07, then full -Live might be sometime after that? Three months? Six? Could we be waiting a full year from now for enough hardware to be released to support -Live that the studios start using the features? Could we be looking at '08 before we see PiP generally avialable?

And how sure of you about the June '07 date? I've reason to believe that there may be some push back on that from CE vendors....

kjack

12-12-06, 09:06 PM

it is called "bd rom profile 3" of course...And is for audio only players....

Talkstr8t

12-12-06, 09:07 PM

Talkstr8t

12-12-06, 09:09 PM

If they have to film peole doing commentary, then production costs will be much higher. They have to hire a filming crew, makeup people, studio time, etc.

That means those costs are passed on.Unless it means more people buy the disc, in which case costs are more than covered and profits are higher. Which is, of course, the point of this whole exercise, since everything about high-def optical media is more expensive than SD.

ckong

12-12-06, 09:10 PM

So, is there any deadline for BD-Live players? I'll assume if that JUST PiP is mandatory for 6/07, then full -Live might be sometime after that? Three months? Six? Could we be waiting a full year from now for enough hardware to be released to support -Live that the studios start using the features? Could we be looking at '08 before we see PiP generally avialable?

And how sure of you about the June '07 date? I've reason to believe that there may be some push back on that from CE vendors....

CE mfrs are probably pissed as hell with competition from a $499 PS3, and now BD want PiP mandatory? The added hardware cost of this new feature is going to the consumer, PS3 is fast pulling away as been THE BD player to get.......

Talkstr8t

12-12-06, 09:10 PM

If HD DVD thrives, I think that the long tail will eventually transition to HD DVD as it becomes the industry standard for shiny discs. If Blu-ray dominates I think the long tail of shiny disc movies will stay in standard definition DVD because of the cost of Blu-ray mastering and replication and the lack of production lines.If (when) Blu-ray dominates you don't think production costs will drop to be comparable or lower than DVD?

Talkstr8t

12-12-06, 09:19 PM

CE mfrs are probably pissed as hell with competition from a $499 PS3, and now BD want PiP mandatory? The added hardware cost of this new feature is going to the consumerThis is nothing new, PiP has been part of the spec for a long time. Further, most of the chipsets already in these players fully support PiP, there are no new costs for the consumer.

scaesare

12-12-06, 09:21 PM

BenDover

12-12-06, 09:22 PM

wco81

12-12-06, 09:31 PM

Is this public info which is documented, about Sony eating the delta?

Not saying it's false, but it would be interesting to see the evidence.

Ultimately it doesn't matter though, as the people bemoaning about the cost can't show that the supposed higher cost translates into a price premium which makes BD-50 releases untenable in the market.

Rio

12-12-06, 10:06 PM

2. It's impossible to quote the cost of a BD50, because it's produced by one vendor, keen on bringing Soviet Union economics back in vogue. Moot point, though, so long as Sony is willing to eat the delta for the other studios.Alex, are you really, really sure about that? ;)

What'sHD

12-12-06, 10:10 PM

Kosty

12-13-06, 12:06 AM

Steve, after trying to catch up on two day's worth of postings I'm not going to respond point-by-point to each of your posts, but give you a general response.

Yes, it's true that the existing players don't make it apparent whether they support PiP, how much persistent storage they have, etc. Bottom line, as a prospective consumer we're still clearly in the early adopter period where you may well end up with a machine which won't support everything follow-on machines will. If you have the stomach (and the wallet) for this, great - buy the best model you can and enjoy. If not you're better off waiting until things mature a bit and you're comfortable with the purchase. I certainly wouldn't purchase a player which doesn't advertise PiP support in the hopes that someday it will if PiP is important to me. I suspect the PS3 will be fully BD-Live compliant, but until someone from Sony officially says so, I'm only speculating.

Will discs be released in the future with features that today's players can't fully support? Almost certainly. In addition to compliance there are performance issues. Just as certain PC games won't run on under-equipped PC's, it will certainly be possible to author BD content which won't run on "under-equipped" BD players (i.e. those with insufficient processing or graphics power). I don't know if there will ever be a labelling system or a matrix of players and titles which makes it obvious which features work on which players. Incidentally, HD-DVD is going to have the same problem, unless the content developers agree to never release content which can't run on every player, in which case you're going to find innovation seriously lacking in the years to come.

Bottom line, of today's players the PS3 is most likely to support every disc for the foreseeable future, but even that isn't guaranteed. If you want another player and you care greatly about interactivity you should be prepared at some point to sell your player (to someone who just wants to "watch the damn movie", of which there seem to be plenty around here) and buy a newer player which does (for the moment) support everything.

- Talk Cripes, your scaring me from purchasing even a PS3.

What' s the rationale for the higher price of the current Blu-ray players that are just coming on the market , if consumers can't be reasonably assured that they will play BD live and use the other future interactive features?

I mean if a HD DVD player can be had for $499, its like theres a $500 increased price premium for the priviledge of watching the HD titles in Blu-ray from Sony and Fox.

With what you are saying, early adopter beware, why would anyone buy a Blu-ray player now that isn't assured of being able to use the full interactive features of Blu-ray? Doesn't that make the PS3 the safest Blu-ray bet? Except that it won't upconvert SD DVDs to near HD.

What justify's the price premium of the Blu-ray players if they can be assured of only doing the same things the HD DVD players do, play HD movies?

2Channel

12-13-06, 01:40 AM

Cripes, your scaring me from purchasing even a PS3.

What' s the rationale for the higher price of the current Blu-ray players that are just coming on the market , if consumers can't be reasonably assured that they will play BD live and use the other future interactive features?

I mean if a HD DVD player can be had for $499, its like theres a $500 increased price premium for the priviledge of watching the HD titles in Blu-ray from Sony and Fox.

With what you are saying, early adopter beware, why would anyone buy a Blu-ray player now that isn't assured of being able to use the full interactive features of Blu-ray? Doesn't that make the PS3 the safest Blu-ray bet? Except that it won't upconvert SD DVDs to near HD.

What justify's the price premium of the Blu-ray players if they can be assured of only doing the same things the HD DVD players do, play HD movies?

Yes, this is in line with the advice I gave a friend of mine last week who wants a Blu-Ray player. I told him he shouldn't spend his money on anything other than a PS3 in the BD format.

The fact that the PS3 is a software based implementation running on the cell CPU instead of a dedicated ASIC means that there is more investment protection than all of the other BD players out there. As long as the cell has enough power, Sony can change the software to handle different new features.

There are two risks with the PS3. First, if some new feature can't be handled in software and needs some new piece of hardware not in the PS3. Second, if Sony decides they don't want to implement certain new features in the PS3 in order to protect new high priced stand alone players from competing with the PS3.

I think the risk of the second is much higher than the first.

What'sHD

12-13-06, 02:37 AM

Hah! :D That's the kind of competition Bluray can handle... :p

In other news, Sony up to it's usual tricks again...

http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/games/archives/2006/12/11/new_sony_viral_marketing_ploy_angers_consumers.html

"New Sony viral marketing ploy angers consumers"

Remember the fake movie reviewer, etc, etc? Now Sony's been caught putting fake customers online to talk up their products on forums - oh, the shock of it all :)
I thought this viral marketing thing was to do with PSP.

If we are accepting news of this relevance, here's one more. Way more relevant though.

The PS3 is better DVD player than the 360 for scratched discs.

http://arstechnica.com/journals/thumbs.ars/2006/12/10/6237

rdjam

12-13-06, 04:09 AM

It seems that consumers' feelings about Sony are factoring quite heavily into their choice of format - and continued boneheaded moves like the one outlined in the story are very much a factor, as a result of this sentiment.

We have now passed the 4,000 supporter mark (I had hoped to hit 3,000 by Christmas, but it looks like we'll have to "settle" for 5,000 or 6,000).

JunioR

12-13-06, 04:13 AM

Toshiba HD DVD European Consumer Website is up: www.highdefinitiondvd.eu

Not sure if this was posted on AVS already, but has anybody visited the website posted by Grubert? It features two nice surprises (to me at least). On the product pages for both the HD-E1 and HD-XE1 you will find a note (under detailed specifications):

1. HD DVD discs containing high definition content at a field rate of 50Hz or a frame rate of 25Hz cannot be played on HD-E1 without a firmware update. Firmware update is expected in the future. Should you have any questions about the frame rate of your disc, please contact the disc vendor.

1. HD DVD discs containing high definition content at a field rate of 50Hz or a frame rate of 25Hz cannot be played on HD-XE1 without a firmware update. Firmware update is expected in the future. Should you have any questions about the frame rate of your disc, please contact the disc vendor.

So the new European HD-DVD players from Toshiba will not be able to playback HD-DVD discs that contain HD video in the native field/frame rate for Europe? What's up with that? I find it very odd given how long Toshiba has had the time to prepare these units for the European market. But fortunately Tosihiba will have a firmware update available in the "future". With this pre-release firmware announcement Toshiba continues the current hot trend in nextgen player manufacturer land (HD-DVD/Blu-ray), how hip :cool: !

Grubert

12-13-06, 04:13 AM

Anybody remember Dragon's Lair?

Digital Leisure, Inc has announced last month the availability of Dragon's Lair for the first time in 1080p high definition on the next generation HD DVD format.

Dragon's Lair was first introduced in the arcades in 1983 and its laser disc video quality and Don Bluth animation made it an instant smash hit. Now, Digital Leisure and authoring studio Infinite HD Inc. have systematically gone through frame by frame and digitally restored this beloved classic arcade game to full True HD film quality.

All special features on the disc are in full 1080p HD including new interviews with creators Don Bluth, Gary Goldman and Rick Dyer, and even a full length visual commentary of the game.
Digital Leisure plans to follow up Dragon's Lair HD DVD with the release of Space Ace and Dragon's Lair II: Time Warp in the HD DVD format over the coming months.

http://hddvdformat.blogspot.com/

**********

thedigitalbits has been informed by a Universal VP that "the studio will continue exclusively backing the HD-DVD format in 2007 and expects to make a number of major HD-DVD release announcements at CES next month."

http://www.thedigitalbits.com/#mytwocents

rdjam

12-13-06, 04:15 AM

The PS3 is better DVD player than the 360 for scratched discs.

http://arstechnica.com/journals/thumbs.ars/2006/12/10/6237
I suppose I should point out that he was comparing the PS3 Bluray drive to the standard DVD drive in the Xbox - not the HD DVD drive... Different generation of tech...

rdjam

12-13-06, 04:19 AM

So the new European HD-DVD players from Toshiba will not be able to playback HD-DVD discs that contain HD video in the native field/frame rate for Europe? What's up with that? I find it very odd given how long Toshiba has had the time to prepare these units for the European market. But fortunately Tosihiba will have a firmware update available in the "future". With this pre-release firmware announcement Toshiba continues the current hot trend in nextgen player manufacturer land (HD-DVD/Blu-ray), how hip :cool: !
That's not news at all - the EU users on AVS petitioned MS and the studios to stick to 24p on the discs, rather than do 25 hz like DVDs did.

All HD Ready sets in the EU and UK are required to be able to do 60 hz.

It's been covered before...

JunioR

12-13-06, 04:31 AM

That's not news at all - the EU users on AVS petitioned MS and the studios to stick to 24p on the discs, rather than do 25 hz like DVDs did.

All HD Ready sets in the EU and UK are required to be able to do 60 hz.

It's been covered before...

I'm sorry but you seem to brush over the facts to easily. Let me reiterate, these new players don't support the NATIVE frame/field rate in Europe. This is a serious shortcoming. This means that content that was captured in 25/50 hz (like ALL content shot for broadcast/television) cannot be played on these new machines (untill a firmware update is available of course)!

Your point about the fact that studios should stick to 24p for content sourced from film is valid, of course. But one should not forget that a lot of content that was shot in Europe for television must be publishable on the nextgen HD disc formats as well.

Finally I would like to note, given the fact that I work in broadcast in The Netherlands, I find it very strange to see our native European frame/field rates listed as unsupported on these devices.

Grubert

12-13-06, 04:37 AM

From Germany...

Singulus Technologies AG:Suppler of HD DVD Machines since 2005 - HD DVD starts (http://www.financial.de/newsroom/news_d/88454.html)

Interesting projections inside:

Experts from Understanding & Solutions forecast a rise of the global DVD volumes from nearly 8 billion in 2006 to 8.5 billion in 2007 and even up to 9 billion by 2008. For Blu-ray Disc and HD DVD a rise is expected from 248 million discs in the next year to 623 million (2008) and 1.2 billion in 2009.

So according to that forecast, hidef disc volumes will be around 3 percent of SD DVD volumes in 2007 and 7 percent in 2008.

What'sHD

12-13-06, 04:53 AM

I suppose I should point out that he was comparing the PS3 Bluray drive to the standard DVD drive in the Xbox - not the HD DVD drive... Different generation of tech...
Just how old exactly is the dvd drive used in the 360? Did MS skimp that heavily on parts for the 360? Nah, dont think so. It still uses a red laser like the PS3 does for DVDs. It's not like the blue laser is used by the PS3 for reading DVDs.

I expect the petition must reach 100K unique signatories to have any impact on studios. I know some 200-300K HD-DVD players are out there, as per figures quoted. So, 100K should be possible unless people give up on HD-DVD and buy the PS3 etc. to play BDs.

Either way, good luck with it. I hope I (or someone else) can rally 100K signatures for Universal going universal and separate BD50 encodes by 2008.

P.S. Btw, anyone know how many people read AVS in a given year?

madshi

12-13-06, 04:55 AM

I'm sorry but you seem to brush over the facts to easily. Let me reiterate, these new players don't support the NATIVE frame/field rate in Europe. This is a serious shortcoming. This means that content that was captured in 25/50 hz (like ALL content shot for broadcast/television) cannot be played on these new machines (untill a firmware update is available of course)!

You're point about the fact that studios should stick to 24p for content sourced from film is valid, of course. But one should not forget that a lot of content that was shot in Europe for television must be publishable on the nextgen HD disc formats as well.

And finally I would like to note, given the fact that I work in broadcast here in The Netherlands, I find it very strange to see our native European frame/field rates listed as unsupported on these devices.
While I don't disagree with you, I don't think it's a big issue, since 25/50 support will come with a later firmware. For the beginning I think by far the most interesting content is movies and they're almost exclusively shot in 24p. So my position is that (although I'm affected here in Germany) it doesn't really bother me at all. I'm interested in HD-DVD because of movies, mostly Hollywood stuff. Don't really care much about native 25/50 content right now.

Actually, I *like* that 25/50 is not supported right now! Why? :confused: Because this forces all studios to get rid of the PAL speedup. Once NOT doing PAL speedup for HD-DVD is common practice, 25/50 may be added without the danger that PAL speedup comes back.

What'sHD

12-13-06, 05:55 AM

It seems that consumers' feelings about Sony are factoring quite heavily into their choice of format - and continued boneheaded moves like the one outlined in the story are very much a factor, as a result of this sentiment.
IF consumer sentiment against the lead company(s) for a format is such a crucial factor, I have the BDA's marketing plan all worked out. Here it is:

(warning: tongue-in-cheek; sense of humor required to read further; If the BDA says its a bad idea, I claim severe lack of sleep. OTOH, if someone likes it, I hereby claim copyright :D )

"HD-DVD: Software by Microsoft and Hardware by Toshiba"

That might just seal HD-DVD's fate quite emphatically IF consumer sentiment is such an important issue.

P.S. To reiterate, I kid

Grubert

12-13-06, 08:57 AM

Tangentially related inasmuch as it concerns the success of downloading:

Apple iTunes sales collapse according to survey (http://www.cdfreaks.com/news/Apple-iTunes-sales-collapses-according-to-survey.html)

And especially this snippet:

Despite the large increase in online digital sales over the past couple of years, only 3% of online homes buy music from iTunes, with most of these still continuing to buy most of their music on CD. Back in 2005, Apple made up just 4% of U.S. music sales according to Forrester.

mikemorel

12-13-06, 09:24 AM

Slightly off topic but tangentially related to the format war...

FTC Moves to Unmask Word-of-Mouth Marketing (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/12/11/AR2006121101389.html?nav=rss_technology<br%20/>)

The Federal Trade Commission yesterday said that companies engaging in word-of-mouth marketing, in which people are compensated to promote products to their peers, must disclose those relationships.

...

The FTC said it would investigate cases where there is a relationship between the endorser of a product and the seller that is not disclosed and could affect the endorsement. The FTC staff said it would go after violators on a case-by-case basis. Consequences could include a cease-and-desist order, fines and civil penalties ranging from thousands of dollars to millions of dollars. Engle said the agency had not brought any cases against word-of-mouth marketers.This should prove interesting... :p

scaesare

12-13-06, 10:03 AM

Cripes, your scaring me from purchasing even a PS3.

What' s the rationale for the higher price of the current Blu-ray players that are just coming on the market , if consumers can't be reasonably assured that they will play BD live and use the other future interactive features?

I mean if a HD DVD player can be had for $499, its like theres a $500 increased price premium for the priviledge of watching the HD titles in Blu-ray from Sony and Fox.

With what you are saying, early adopter beware, why would anyone buy a Blu-ray player now that isn't assured of being able to use the full interactive features of Blu-ray? Doesn't that make the PS3 the safest Blu-ray bet? Except that it won't upconvert SD DVDs to near HD.

What justify's the price premium of the Blu-ray players if they can be assured of only doing the same things the HD DVD players do, play HD movies?

I agree.

While some may not believe it, if there's going to be a prolonged format war, I'd likely be interested in owning both formats. I want high-quality content... I have maprticular allegiance to any large corporations... I know they don't to me personally. It's all business.

So, I now have to buy 2 decks if I don't want to be locked out of content. This has budgetary impacts for me, and I suspect many others. I've already sprung for a HD DVD player. Now I have to consider somewhere in the neighborhood of $1000 for a CE BR deck (I'm not interested in a game console for dedicated disc playback).

However it's awfully hard for me to do that, knowing that for at least the next 7 months there's uncertainy as to what ultimate functionality I'll get. While Talk's advice is nice, if I try to unload a $1K Gen-I BD-Video deck with no interactvity features when the Gen-II BD-Live decks that DO have those come out, I'll likey have to take a significant loss. I could be looking at $1200-$1500 just to get the feature set that has been promised for BR. That's an additional 3X what I paid for my HD DVD deck.

:(

scaesare

12-13-06, 10:06 AM

Not sure if this was posted on AVS already, but has anybody visited the website posted by Grubert? It features two nice surprises (to me at least). On the product pages for both the HD-E1 and HD-XE1 you will find a note (under detailed specifications):

So the new European HD-DVD players from Toshiba will not be able to playback HD-DVD discs that contain HD video in the native field/frame rate for Europe? What's up with that? I find it very odd given how long Toshiba has had the time to prepare these units for the European market. But fortunately Tosihiba will have a firmware update available in the "future". With this pre-release firmware announcement Toshiba continues the current hot trend in nextgen player manufacturer land (HD-DVD/Blu-ray), how hip :cool: !

I agree this is shortsighted. While I'm not directly affected, I AM very interested in "Direct off-the-disc content". Toshiba doesn't have a clear 24p gameplan for NTSC either.

All players should give the option for the framerate on the disc, and additionally an even multiple thereof, if it makes sense for the diaplays in the target market.

scaesare

12-13-06, 10:40 AM

Steve, after trying to catch up on two day's worth of postings I'm not going to respond point-by-point to each of your posts, but give you a general response.

Yes, it's true that the existing players don't make it apparent whether they support PiP, how much persistent storage they have, etc. Bottom line, as a prospective consumer we're still clearly in the early adopter period where you may well end up with a machine which won't support everything follow-on machines will. If you have the stomach (and the wallet) for this, great - buy the best model you can and enjoy. If not you're better off waiting until things mature a bit and you're comfortable with the purchase. I certainly wouldn't purchase a player which doesn't advertise PiP support in the hopes that someday it will if PiP is important to me. I suspect the PS3 will be fully BD-Live compliant, but until someone from Sony officially says so, I'm only speculating.

Will discs be released in the future with features that today's players can't fully support? Almost certainly. In addition to compliance there are performance issues. Just as certain PC games won't run on under-equipped PC's, it will certainly be possible to author BD content which won't run on "under-equipped" BD players (i.e. those with insufficient processing or graphics power). I don't know if there will ever be a labelling system or a matrix of players and titles which makes it obvious which features work on which players. Incidentally, HD-DVD is going to have the same problem, unless the content developers agree to never release content which can't run on every player, in which case you're going to find innovation seriously lacking in the years to come.

Bottom line, of today's players the PS3 is most likely to support every disc for the foreseeable future, but even that isn't guaranteed. If you want another player and you care greatly about interactivity you should be prepared at some point to sell your player (to someone who just wants to "watch the damn movie", of which there seem to be plenty around here) and buy a newer player which does (for the moment) support everything.

- Talk

Talk, I initially just gave a "Cool" response to this, as you were addressing the many posts that have gone between Richard, Onanie, Wco81, and myself, which indeed would be difficult to catch up on. And you've given a farnk reply abve, which I appreciate.

So, I'm not trying to be argumentative, or badger, but I was hoping you could clarify for me why it seems that there's a similar situation in both Sony and Toshiba issuing firmware updates to allow some newer titles to play, and you say this about Sony:

A firmware upgrade fix doesn't imply non-compliance. Non-compliance means a player failed a test suite. A fix means a bug was found. Test suites aren't perfect, so there will likely always be bugs found even when a player passes the test suite (bugs typically result in new tests being added so that future players will have a more robust test suite). Further, a fix could mean improving performance such that some content runs when it might not have previously. Test suites generally don't factor in performance, so it's certainly possible content will be written which fails on a fully-compliant player.

And yet you say this about Toshiba:

A very slight mod, meaning one which makes certain movies work when they didn't before? Doesn't sound so slight to me. Either the initial HD-DVD players (both standalone and PC-based) a) weren't compliant with the HDi spec, b) were compliant with the spec but the compliance tests are incredibly weak, or c) there is some form of unannounced profiling going on where certain HDi features above-and-beyond the spec requirements are being used.

Thanks.

BenDover

12-13-06, 11:29 AM

Talk, I initially just gave a "Cool" response to this, as you were addressing the many posts that have gone between Richard, Onanie, Wco81, and myself, which indeed would be difficult to catch up on. And you've given a farnk reply abve, which I appreciate.

So, I'm not trying to be argumentative, or badger, but I was hoping you could clarify for me why it seems that there's a similar situation in both Sony and Toshiba issuing firmware updates to allow some newer titles to play, and you say this about Sony:

And yet you say this about Toshiba:

Thanks.

come now, it is simply, it is called bias and spin...he isn't hiding that fact ;)

btw, universal's latest release seems to have garnered a 5 out of 5 on video with a respectable 4-1/2 out of 5 on audio:

http://hddvd.highdefdigest.com/hulk.html

kjack

12-13-06, 11:45 AM

The fact that the PS3 is a software based implementation running on the cell CPU instead of a dedicated ASIC means that there is more investment protection than all of the other BD players out there.With seven CPUs on our ASIC chip, it's only a dedicated ASIC due to the software it runs. :) These days, hardware is used to accelerate software, so the hardware is not application specific.

b2bonez

12-13-06, 11:54 AM

With seven CPUs on our ASIC chip, it's only a dedicated ASIC due to the software it runs. :) These days, hardware is used to accelerate software, so the hardware is not application specific.

Ack !! 7 CPUs :eek: You guys been working overtime...? ;)

Question... Are any of your "Super SoCs" (nice rhyme BTW...) going to show up in any of the mid-year '07 BD players by chance ???

Yea, Nea or "no comment" is all that I'm asking...

b2b

wco81

12-13-06, 12:16 PM

nilsp

12-13-06, 12:44 PM

That's not news at all - the EU users on AVS petitioned MS and the studios to stick to 24p on the discs, rather than do 25 hz like DVDs did.

All HD Ready sets in the EU and UK are required to be able to do 60 hz.

It's been covered before...

Where was it covered that the Toshibas won't support 25Hz out of the box? I'm impressed with your ability to brush aside any "required" updates (current shortcomings) of HD DVD players, but the same for Blu-ray players are major issues...

As mentioned by other posters, 24P is for movie content. We're talking TV series (Dr. Who, anyone) etc., that just will not play? (Of course, not much content of that sort is available now, but still.)

Hopefully Toshiba will issue the firmware updates rather soon, but I find it interesting that no timeline was given at all.

nilsp

12-13-06, 12:55 PM

CE mfrs are probably pissed as hell with competition from a $499 PS3, and now BD want PiP mandatory? The added hardware cost of this new feature is going to the consumer, PS3 is fast pulling away as been THE BD player to get.......

Do you believe the CE mfrs were surprised when the PS3 was released at $499? It's been part of the game plan for a long time. And as Talk mentioned, PIP is already in hardware. Ie. no issue.

To tell you the truth, I'm not that exited about PIP. Why would I want something to cover parts of the picture to tell me about it? Audio commentary is fine for me. (Pausing the movie, though, to explain more about certain scenes is nice.)

Actually, thinking about extras, when building my 250+ DVD collection, I've always bought the double disc edtion etc. But thinking back, except for one of the Lord of the Rings movies, I've looked at NONE of the extras... I watch the movie, intend to get back to the extras, but never do. There just isn't time... Maybe it'll be better in HD. :)

TomsHT

12-13-06, 01:16 PM

Do you believe the CE mfrs were surprised when the PS3 was released at $499? It's been part of the game plan for a long time. And as Talk mentioned, PIP is already in hardware. Ie. no issue.

To tell you the truth, I'm not that exited about PIP. Why would I want something to cover parts of the picture to tell me about it? Audio commentary is fine for me. (Pausing the movie, though, to explain more about certain scenes is nice.)

Actually, thinking about extras, when building my 250+ DVD collection, I've always bought the double disc edtion etc. But thinking back, except for one of the Lord of the Rings movies, I've looked at NONE of the extras... I watch the movie, intend to get back to the extras, but never do. There just isn't time... Maybe it'll be better in HD. :)

Where as I agree that I am not worried or will use PIP features I do wonder if a PIP enabled title will still be able to be played on my machine. I know the PIP features may not work but will that prevent us from being able to watch all movies?

As a side note, I usually do watch the extras the first time I finish watching a new movie

BrynRhys

12-13-06, 01:31 PM

P.S. Btw, anyone know how many people read AVS in a given year?

Check here for some relevant statistics:

http://www.alexa.com/data/details/traffic_details?url=www.avsforum.com

What's interesting is that the traffic is a lot more than people probably realize.

2Channel

12-13-06, 01:32 PM

With seven CPUs on our ASIC chip, it's only a dedicated ASIC due to the software it runs. :) These days, hardware is used to accelerate software, so the hardware is not application specific.

Yes, I understand kjack, but I am still skeptical of the flexibility of your solution vs. the PS3 cell CPU approach. Exactly how powerful are those 7 CPUs compared to the cell? and how easily could your solution add support for all of the BD features that have not been standardized yet?

With BD still in the process of maturing, I believe PS3 will have an easier time adapting to changes because of the nature of its architecture. Would you disagree with that?

To put it another way, if I go and buy a Sigma based BD player like the Pioneer, can I be confident that the hardware is upgradeable to all of the new BD features that will become available next year?

nilsp

12-13-06, 01:32 PM

Where as I agree that I am not worried or will use PIP features I do wonder if a PIP enabled title will still be able to be played on my machine. I know the PIP features may not work but will that prevent us from being able to watch all movies?

As a side note, I usually do watch the extras the first time I finish watching a new movie
I should hope not. PIP would be a menu choice, thus if you don't choose it on a player that does not yet support it, the title should play fine. That much sense I think we can assume the authors have... :)

Rio

12-13-06, 01:55 PM

PiP function has been sitting on the spec book way before players came out. So the player which doesn't support PiP should simply ignore PiP stream or warn you that this function is not supported, then work without trouble. If it doesn't, the manufacturer at least has an obligation to release a firmware update to fix the issue. Isn't this working for you?

BenDover

12-13-06, 01:55 PM

Yes, I understand kjack, but I am still skeptical of the flexibility of your solution vs. the PS3 cell CPU approach. Exactly how powerful are those 7 CPUs compared to the cell? and how easily could your solution add support for all of the BD features that have not been standardized yet?

With BD still in the process of maturing, I believe PS3 will have an easier time adapting to changes because of the nature of its architecture. Would you disagree with that?

To put it another way, if I go and buy a Sigma based BD player like the Pioneer, can I be confident that the hardware is upgradeable to all of the new BD features that will become available next year?

i'm not sure that there are features which haven't been standardized...the standard exists; the profiles are specified and fleshed out, it is just that they took a "phased-in" approach...i presume to not allow hd dvd over a year in the market place without competition.

2Channel

12-13-06, 02:17 PM

i'm not sure that there are features which haven't been standardized...the standard exists; the profiles are specified and fleshed out, it is just that they took a "phased-in" approach...i presume to not allow hd dvd over a year in the market place without competition.

Thanks BenDover. That's my misunderstanding then. If all of the unreleased features of BD are already nailed down, then manufacturers (like Pioneer) should be able to guarantee that they will provide future firmware updates to the BDP-HD1 to support all of the elements of BD that are not currently released. Assuming their hardware design is capable of supporting all of those features.

scaesare

12-13-06, 02:37 PM

It's the nature of the beast.

When DVD players first came out at $1000, it was lacking progressive scan output, which came later in players with a lower price point and more features, probably better performance, better compatibility, compatibility with DVD-R, etc.

So we know that players a year or two from now will cost less and have more features, for both formats. Why you want to single out Blu-Ray for not having certain features or not promising them through upgrades seems to reflect a bias.

I'd argue that the difference is that all of the disc features on a title that you bought today or 10 years ago would work on a deck you bought today or 10 years ago.

Now, newer decks provided some additional features above and beyond, but older decks didn't make any disc feature usage impossible.

I give you again the Princess Tea party: If it works at home, but not at best-friend's house on his $1000 player, you think they are gonna be happy?

Whereas even though a (non HD-)DVD may play at my house with progressive component output and DTS sound, and best-friends house is interlaced S-video input and stereo sound, every feature that title has will play on both.

g55555sim

12-13-06, 02:39 PM

Where as I agree that I am not worried or will use PIP features I do wonder if a PIP enabled title will still be able to be played on my machine. I know the PIP features may not work but will that prevent us from being able to watch all movies?

more excuses for BD. :) BD supporters should make BD CEs' easy by handling them a petition saying they wont bother with BD Live, PiP, other disk format support etc .. :D If the BD purchasers wont mind, who are the HD DVD supporters to say anything ;)

scaesare

12-13-06, 02:41 PM

Kosty

12-13-06, 02:53 PM

Check here for some relevant statistics:

http://www.alexa.com/data/details/traffic_details?url=www.avsforum.com

What's interesting is that the traffic is a lot more than people probably realize.

If you look at the 5 year trends its pretty interesting too for the increase in 2006 views compared to previous years.

http://www.alexa.com/data/details/traffic_details?url=www.avsforum.com

squarepants

12-13-06, 03:02 PM

(emphasis mine)

"Is"?

Or "may be"?

Not only does the PS3 support PIP, but it can handle HD PIP source.

smithfarmer

12-13-06, 03:10 PM

If you look at the 5 year trends its pretty interesting too for the increase in 2006 views compared to previous years.

http://www.alexa.com/data/details/traffic_details?url=www.avsforum.com
It's still far from accurate. They are only basing the "reach" on Alexa enabled browsers. ;)

Kosty

12-13-06, 03:18 PM

It's still far from accurate. They are only basing the "reach" on Alexa enabled browsers. ;) Oh I get it, thats only the reach on browsers that have been infested with Alexa adware, and their reading the cookies.

Yetch. I hate adware. OT The combination of Mircosoft Defender, Ad-aware and Spybot serach abd destro along with a good virus program keeps my system a lot cleaner.

Yetech. I hate adware, did I already say that? :mad:

smithfarmer

12-13-06, 03:32 PM

Oh I get it, thats only the reach on browsers that have been infested with Alexa adware, and their reading the cookies.

Yetch. I hate adware. OT The combination of Mircosoft Defender, Ad-aware and Spybot serach abd destro along with a good virus program keeps my system a lot cleaner.

Yetech. I hate adware, did I already say that? :mad:
Exactly. Surprising how many do not even use the free tools available to block that crap from infesting their pc. ;)

BenDover

12-13-06, 03:32 PM

Thanks BenDover. That's my misunderstanding then. If all of the unreleased features of BD are already nailed down, then manufacturers (like Pioneer) should be able to guarantee that they will provide future firmware updates to the BDP-HD1 to support all of the elements of BD that are not currently released. Assuming their hardware design is capable of supporting all of those features.

that would be ideal but i HIGHLY DOUBT that will happen...they will simply come out with their next gen player...panasonics player was discontinued before it even hit store shelves!

i was seriously looking at possibly getting a pio bd player to complement my recent pio plasma purchase and after digging around on pio's site i've decide i'm steering clear of their 1st gen player...they seem to be very careful in placing disclaimers, etc. about the player and future firmware upgrades...at least panasonic did say they would upgrade firmware to at least decode the new audio codecs...at 1G+ for these players, i don't have the stomach or wallet (as Talk put it) to recklessly dive in (knowing damn well that it is only the tip of the iceberg since i have yet to sign up for netflix...something i keep saying i'm going to do :))

it is looking more and more as if i will either have to sneak a ps3 into the household (going to be tough; wife is getting wise to my tricks...) or wait until mid to end of 2007 before getting a bd player.