Lost Blu-ray confirmed for 2007: http://www.zonadvd.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=7616

That is GOOD news. Our local station broadcasts Lost in 4:3 Stereo only. I've stopped watching it. Kate in 1080P? Mmmmmm....... Hopefully the next season(s) are close behind.

I'm really interested in seeing the prices for TV series on Blu-ray/HD DVD. How much more than the DVD versions? $10 more on average? More?

-Seriously.. the time for commuincation is NOW. Or more accurately some time back when Samsung first started accepting their customer's credit cards without anybody telling them they will have a "next gen" player that will only be capable of playing a subset of all the features that will be avialable on BR discs in a just a few months.No offense but are you going to go out and tell people the differences between Blu-ray and HD DVD? After all if you really want people to know everything about their players shouldn't they also know what the specs of each format are as well?


Unless there's a general expectation that it should be able to.No offense but unless a feature was advertised by the manufacturer you can't blame them for somebody's personal expectation. For instance I remember arguing with someone who once told me that the HD-A1 could decode DTS-HD audio. Should Toshiba have been criticized for not supporting DTS-HD simply because someone thought that they did?


Exactly Richard... EXACTLY.. they don't know that, yet in the previous sentence you expect them to know the difference between BD-Video and BD-Live.Nonsense, and I never indicated that I expected people to know the difference between BD-Live and BD-Video anymore than I expect people to know the difference between Blu-ray and HD DVD. I wish that people did but most people don't.

And is for audio only players....No fair, you're cheating...you have the spec! :)

Alex, are you really, really sure about that? ;)Alex is a moron who knows only what he reads in the New York Post.* Are we talking about PDMC? Or do you have cost figures?!? Dish, man, dish! :)

* Sorry, obscure reference to a silly move called Top Secret. I laugh every time I hear it (http://sounds.wavcentral.com/movies/top_secret/moron.mp3) though.

When DVD players first came out at $1000, it was lacking progressive scan output...

So we know that players a year or two from now will cost less and have more features, for both formats. Why you want to single out Blu-Ray for not having certain features or not promising them through upgrades seems to reflect a bias.There's no bias here vis a vis the handling of PiP vs. progressive scan playback of DVD and calling out the BDA proper for a bad call.

Progressive scan output was *not* part of the spec when DVD was released--they couldn't get Macrovision to work correctly at 480p.

That's quite a bit different than having features noted in a spec--indeed, future *mandatory* features--and not supporting them, something which every current Blu-ray player on the market is "guilty" of right now.

The BDA set the stage to create--by design, not accident--legacy Blu-ray players.

Some pass that off as the price to pay for early adoption, but I think it was a really, really bad marketing move, executed only because PiP compliance testing would have delayed players a good 6-9 months. I guarantee you that very few Blu-ray consumers know that PiP compliance becomes mandatory in June 2007, and that their pre-June 2007 players have a zero-to-unknown chance of being updated to support PiP (mind you, CE companies that *know* what they can do have pre-emptively promised firmware updates to fix issues or add features...to date, no CE company has promised PiP upgradability....how odd).

And to further hammer home the point, progressive scan output for DVD was never mandatory at any point of the DVD spec's maturation. Regardless of what side of the format fence you fall, it's pretty hard to spin the "no PiP today, but PiP for everyone tomorrow, if you buy a new deck" support policy as a good thing for consumers.

where's the news?!?*


*not so obscure reference to an ad campaign run in the mid to late eighties time frame (i think...life was a blur back then ;))

Actually, I wasn't responding to you Alex so much as scaesare.

Yes it's a valid point that consumers don't know that PIP is coming, even though it's in the spec.

But I don't think that's operating outside the parameters of the market where more refined features come months or even years later. IOW, most people buying first gen players reasonably expect that later gen players will have more features at a lower price.

I really doubt a lot of people consider not having PIP a dealbreaker.

Are we talking about PDMC? Or do you have cost figures?!?For both, no.

BTW, another "publicity" about BD replication came from Sony Music Manufacturing (http://arena.nikkeibp.co.jp/col/20061211/120131/).

Very quick summary:

- PTM mastering process gets rid of 7 out of 12 processes from traditional DVD mastering process, it contributes stabilizing quality and reducing waste
- Sony has sold 7 PTM systems to US, 1 for Europe, 2 for Japan, as of October 2006. 2 systems will be added to Japan
- Replication is utilizing spin-coat methodology
- Cycle time is 5 to 6 seconds, yield ratio is about 80%, output is 12,000 per day/per line
- Shizuoka factory of Sony Music Manufacturing has 3 lines
- "Current our target is to achieve 90% yields, even 95% - same level of current DVD, as soon as possible."

Note: take them with grain of salt :)

Cycle time is 5 to 6 seconds, yield ratio is about 80%, output is 12,000 per day/per lineRio - This is the machine translation - do you know if they are talking about BD-25 or BD-50s here?

The device, the injection molding, cooling and reflected membrane, cover layer, is formed with five blocks of the inspection removal. In the machine which presses 2 layers 50GB, 2nd layer production unit is added in this, several same process as 1st layer is piled up.

As for productivity of present condition of here Shizuoka factory, time differs somewhat at monolayer /2 layer, but per 1 at 5~6 second, as for yield rate approximately 80% you say. Per 1 units it seems that is the productivity 12,000 in 1 days. At the Shizuoka factory this machine works 3.

As for productivity of present condition of here Shizuoka factory, time differs somewhat at monolayer /2 layer, but per 1 at 5~6 second, as for yield rate approximately 80% you say. Per 1 units it seems that is the productivity 12,000 in 1 daysSingle layer.

Single layer.To be more succinct, are we talking about pasting two single layer 1/2 thickness discs, back to back, each with a 5-6 second cycle time and 80% yield?

And what does "At the Shizuoka factory this machine works 3" mean? They have 3 "pairs" of machines (or 3 "lines") to create BD-50?

To be more succinct, are we talking about pasting two single layer 1/2 thickness discs, back to back, each with a 5-6 second cycle time and 80% yield?

And what does "At the Shizuoka factory this machine works 3" mean? They have 3 "pairs" of machines (or 3 "lines") to create BD-50?
Like Rio said, take it with a grain of salt. The times given are for single layer discs and the "3" refers to the fact they are a 24 hour a day operation - 3 shifts per day at 8 hours per shift.

According to the original article, it says "time varies little bit depending on SL or DL,
the cycle time is 5 to 6 seconds for each disc, yields is about 80%.", so I thought the cycle time also includes DL case (6 seconds?). No obvious mentioning is there to clarify whether all 3 lines are DL capable or not.

The times given are for single layer discs and the "3" refers to the fact they are a 24 hour a day operation - 3 shifts per day at 8 hours per shift.Your interpretation is wrong. "3" means "3 lines", not "3 shifts".

No offense but are you going to go out and tell people the differences between Blu-ray and HD DVD? After all if you really want people to know everything about their players shouldn't they also know what the specs of each format are as well?

No offense taken, but are you going to go out and tell people about the merits of the Dodge Stratus??

:confused:

You think maybe it might be in the best intrests of the vendors to do that?


No offense but unless a feature was advertised by the manufacturer you can't blame them for somebody's personal expectation. For instance I remember arguing with someone who once told me that the HD-A1 could decode DTS-HD audio. Should Toshiba have been criticized for not supporting DTS-HD simply because someone thought that they did?

Again... if you are trying to be offensive, you'll have to work much harder... none taken.

I actually would have no problem with more significant disclaimers about what audio the Toshiba decks don't support.


Nonsense, and I never indicated that I expected people to know the difference between BD-Live and BD-Video anymore than I expect people to know the difference between Blu-ray and HD DVD. I wish that people did but most people don't.

If you say so Richard... if you say so:

Which is why if you care about extras on Blu-ray it is best to buy a BD-Live player.

Actually, I wasn't responding to you Alex so much as scaesare.

Yes it's a valid point that consumers don't know that PIP is coming, even though it's in the spec.

But I don't think that's operating outside the parameters of the market where more refined features come months or even years later. IOW, most people buying first gen players reasonably expect that later gen players will have more features at a lower price.

I really doubt a lot of people consider not having PIP a dealbreaker.

Um.. how can "people consider not having PIP a dealbreaker", if "consumers don't know that PIP is coming"?

And if you read Alex's post, he isn't arguing against "refinement", he's arguing against foisting a handicapped player upon an unsuspecting public:

That's quite a bit different than having features noted in a spec--indeed, future *mandatory* features--and not supporting them, something which every current Blu-ray player on the market is "guilty" of right now.

The BDA set the stage to create--by design, not accident--legacy Blu-ray players.

If you ask people interested in HD whether they'd rather buy players now or wait for players with a feature like PIP, it's doubtful PIP alone will make people not buy now.

Conversely, people who spend a lot now won't necessarily be upset if a year later players have PIP, because we've become conditioned to expect that newer hardware will offer new features and a better price/value proposition.

i'm not sure this would be the case for hd dvd since they don't have different specifications kicking in at later dates (ie, profiles)...all the hd dvd hardware has to fully meet the minimums of the standard i would imagine.


Ben do you know if your Toshiba supports MC?

Conditioned or not, I bet there will be quite a few people next year that go to the store, see PiP on a title, take it home, and get ticked off when they discover that it doesn't work on their $1000 player.

Real News as posted here...

http://biz.gamedaily.com/industry/feature/?id=14737

The Xbox 360 has sold 3.4 million units in the U.S., and the newly launched Wii and PS3 come in at 476K and 197K, respectively. Along with the Wii console, 270K Wii remotes and 153K nunchuks were also sold.

Interestingly, from a next-gen DVD standpoint the Xbox 360 HD DVD peripheral sold 42K units. So technically, within the gaming universe the PS3/Blu-ray install base is nearly five times greater.

And a little quick math gives an 1.23% attach rate for the HD-DVD addon...

b2b

Think outside the box.

If you ask people interested in HD whether they'd rather buy players now or wait for players with a feature like PIP, it's doubtful PIP alone will make people not buy now.

Conversely, people who spend a lot now won't necessarily be upset if a year later players have PIP, because we've become conditioned to expect that newer hardware will offer new features and a better price/value proposition.

Then why not inform people so THEY can decide that for their own $1000 investment?

If it won't be a problem why not inform people?

Here's an interesting little experiment:

Go to www.bluraydisc.com (http://www.bluraydisc.com) and do some searching:

"BD-Video" = 0 hits

"BD-Live" = 0 hits

"PiP"= 0 hits

"Picture in picture" = 0 hits

"Profile" = 4 hits... aha!

-Hit #1 discusses support for AVC High-Profile

-Hit #4 Has to do with BluRay software product supporting BR, and one of them has to do with data backup "profiles"

-Hits #2 & #3 lead to the same document under :"Home -> Technical -> Blu-ray Disc for Movie Distribution"


Absolutley no discussion about limited profile support in players. Actually no discussion about profiles AT ALL. Here are some interesting quotes however:


"The Video Distribution format was widely expanded to offer content producers a full range of additional features unavailable in the home recording format."

"'BD-J' mode
Offers unparalleled flexibility and features, because it is based on the Java runtime environment. It allows for extensive interactive applications, and offers Internet connectivity."

"Every Blu-ray Disc player will be equipped with a Java interpreter, so that it is capable of running discs authored in BD-J mode"

"Internet connection
The BD-J system supports basic Internet protocols like TCP/IP and HTTP. The player may connect to the disc publisher's web site to unlock certain content on the disc (after certain conditions, like payment, are met), or dynamically display certain info (like theater playing schedules for a movie) on the screen. The disc's program may be extended with JPEG pictures or audio fragments downloaded from the Internet, or it can even stream full new audio/visual content to Local Storage."

"Conclusion
The Blu-ray Disc format for Movie Distribution offers two flexible profiles for the creation of titles. It was designed to allow for the streamlined development of Blu-ray Disc (HD) and DVD-Video (SD) titles at the same time, if needed. Basic menus and navigation can be identical. However, it also offers many new functions that will benefit both the author (by offering flexible ways of creating disc content), as well as end users (by offering exciting new functionality compared to DVD-Video). "


(Incidentally, the profiles mentioned in that last paragraph are disc profiled earlier defined as HDMV mode and BD-J mode...not the player profiles under discussion here)

I also read the FAQ - no mention there

There are also 8 technical PDF's - no mention there


So I figured if the BDA had zero mentions on their site, then the player manufactuers must at least let people know...

Sony's web page has this to say if you click a small footnote link:

"As with other optical media devices, circumstances may limit compatibility or prevent Blu-ray disc playback."

It also says this under specs:

"Plays discs with following formats BD-ROM, DVD-ROM, DVD +R/RW, DVD –R/RW, AVC-HD, and MP3/JPEG from DVD formats. Planned firmware upgrade in 2007 will allow for compatibility with most BD R/RE discs."

Downloading and searching their entire user manual reveals no mention of "BD-Video"or "BD-Live". The only mention of "Profile" is that the player is "BD-ROM Profile 1 compatible", which is the physical disc spec.

Shall I keep going?

-Nothing on Panasonic's DMP-100 pages

-Nothing on Pioneer's BDP-HD1 pages

-Samsung's BD-P1000 page says "BD-JAVA"

-Philips' BDP9000 says "Java for interactivity and graphical enhancements"

- Just about all of the above mention compatability with "BD-ROM" discs





So... I ask you... and Richard... how is somebody who even TRIES to educate them self about this supposed to know they are buying a $1000 legacy player?

Real News as posted here...

http://biz.gamedaily.com/industry/feature/?id=14737



And a little quick math gives an 1.23% attach rate for the HD-DVD addon...

b2b

So a very generous 10% BD attach rate for the PS3 would put us at 19,700 movie users. ;)

Something I've speculated about in previous posts. Delay of the EU PS3 launch. This does not bode well for US supply of PS3s for some time.

http://biz.gamedaily.com/industry/feature/?id=14731

In fact, a new report in U.K. gaming website Computer and Video Games suggests that the PS3 may not see a release in Europe until September. "High placed sources within the industry have already been tipping April as a more realistic launch window for the console. But a source has told CVG that a PS3 delay as far back as September 2007 is now far more likely, pointing the finger of delay at - yes you guessed it – 'component shortages'.

So a very generous 10% BD attach rate for the PS3 would put us at 19,700 movie users. ;)

42,000 King Kong.. 197,000 Talladega Nights... That's real data, anything else is just opinion...

b2b

Think outside the box.

Care to elaborate?

No offense taken, but are you going to go out and tell people about the merits of the Dodge Stratus??

:confused:Come on you know what I am getting at and that is the fact that most of the people who want to spread the word about the differences between BD-Live and BD-Video aren't really that interested in informing consumers about the two HD formats. Instead they are far more interested in attacking Blu-ray.


You think maybe it might be in the best intrests of the vendors to do that?I thought you wanted to inform consumers about their HD players and wouldn't the differences between Blu-ray and HD DVD be part of that?


And if you read Alex's post, he isn't arguing against "refinement", he's arguing against foisting a handicapped player upon an unsuspecting public:If you consider BD-Video handicapped because it isn't as good as BD-Live would HD DVD be handicapped compared to BD-Live as well? After all BD-Live does have higher requirements for PiP decoding and persistent storage than what HD DVD requires.


So... I ask you... and Richard... how is somebody who even TRIES to educate them self about this supposed to know they are buying a $1000 legacy player?Blu-ray can play discs with both larger capacities and larger bandwidth than HD DVD so if BD-Video players are legacy equipment they are still equipment that is better than the competition in certain areas. Or is the consumer education you are hoping for supposed to leave little facts like that out?

After all BD-Live does have higher requirements for PiP decoding and persistent storage than what HD DVD requires.

HD can do PiP now. BD is apparently facing a challenging implementation to get this out in the future. So much for what higher requirements gets you.


Blu-ray can play discs with both larger capacities and larger bandwidth than HD DVD...

So what??? Nobody has yet been able to demonstrate where this has made any difference at all in the real world. I guess it takes this to make BD look "as good" as HD.

So what??? Nobody has yet been able to demonstrate where this has made any difference at all in the real world. I guess it takes this to make BD look "as good" as HD.
It comes back to studios doing separate encodes for BD rather than reusing HD30 encodes. When that happens with an eye to using BD's full bitrate, you WILL see a difference between BD and HD for the same title.

P.S. Since you want to see real-world difference, do put your vote behind what you just said and take the poll below in my sig. thanks

HD can do PiP now. BD is apparently facing a challenging implementation to get this out in the future. So much for what higher requirements gets you.Well when you require PiP decoding at higher bit rates and resolutions it is somewhat harder to do. Obviously though you don't care about small details such as that.


So what??? Nobody has yet been able to demonstrate where this has made any difference at all in the real world. I guess it takes this to make BD look "as good" as HD.Besides some obvious Blu-ray hatred are you saying that you know for sure that the advantages that Blu-ray has will not make any real world difference? Care to explain how you "know" that?

Taiwan makers: Blu-ray HD DVD stalemate may boost dual-format devices (http://www.digitimes.com/systems/a20061214PD201.html)

Real News as posted here...

http://biz.gamedaily.com/industry/feature/?id=14737

And a little quick math gives an 1.23% attach rate for the HD-DVD addon...

b2b1.2% "attach" rate. :p No silly. That number is more the short term "conversion rate". Although attach rate could be applied here, that term is more appropriate to be used for a longer period.

In a one or two week context, it more a 1.2% conversion rate for that period. That's in a two week period 1.2% of Xbox 360 owners were converted into buyers of the add on bundle. That conversion rate would apply for a certain period that would insure that all of the eligible target market would be educated about the option and would have it available for purchase and would have a suitable decision period to decide to buy.

Attach rates are usually benchmarked for initial purchases of the primary item, with in 30 days, quarterly, yearly and through the lifetime of the item.

Although, this shows a 1.2 % conversion rate, that rate of purchase for XBox 360 owners would probably stay steady for at least 4 weeks and probably last for months at a similar rate.

Its probably very good news for HD DVD as it implies at least a 10% overall eventual attach rate for the HD DVD player bundle for the base Xbox 360.

Now if the HD DVD disc purchase attach rate for Xbox owners is as high as it was for the first generation HD DVD players, then HD DVD is in pretty good shape.

That IMNSHO would also imply around 5-15% of PS3 owners will use the PS3 as a dedicated player

Some actual positive Blu-ray news.

For the first time at www.dvdwars.com with the Amazon sales tracking Blu-ray exceeded HD DVD on a sales graph. Blu-ray passed HD DVD in "Number of Titles in the top 10000' graph (80 to 73). Thats on of the two most significant graphs. It still is below in the "number in top 1000" and "number in top 100' graphs but it does show some positive impact on Blu-ray disc purchases from the Blu-ray launch. That is good new for Blu-ray.

How that will trend with the launch of the Xbox 360 HD DVD movie player bundle and the launch of the 2nd generation HD DVD players is yet to be seem.

dvdwars.com recently added a bunch of the new Blu-ray movies to its tracking and revised its chart display format.

Pirates of the Caribbean (two movies) to launch in 2007 - probably May, to coincide with the third instalment:

http://www.zonadvd.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=7622

Check here for some relevant statistics:

http://www.alexa.com/data/details/traffic_details?url=www.avsforum.com

What's interesting is that the traffic is a lot more than people probably realize.

Too bad alexa only counts users of IE on windows, and since most geeks use firefox/opera/safari I have a feeling its a lot more.....

Taiwan makers: Blu-ray HD DVD stalemate may boost dual-format devices (http://www.digitimes.com/systems/a20061214PD201.html)
Consequently, Samsung Electronics has planned to offer dual-format recorders that can record and play back BD and HD DVD movies, the sources pointed out. Hitachi-LG Data Storage (HLDS), a member of the Blu-ray Disc Association, is considering production of dual-format devices, the sources indicated, noting that a dual-format device would be more expensive than a single-format device. Ahh, they are naming names...and Samsung is planning dual format for the third time, which I hear is a charm. Apparently they finally figured out that there is no money in chasing the PS3 for playback only BD players. I could have saved them some time and money in December of last year...

Will this "rumor" get squashed yet again?

Real News as posted here...

http://biz.gamedaily.com/industry/feature/?id=14737



And a little quick math gives an 1.23% attach rate for the HD-DVD addon...

b2bIt's a little silly to ascribe attach rates to something with only two weeks on the market, no?

Given that there was a minor detail not mentioned, like "THE PS3 LAUNCH" with thousands waiting in line for a quick payday, it is not surprising that in two weeks, the PS3 has sold more units.

December's units sold numbers will prove more interesting, as the add-on holiday sales kick in. After all $200 is in the wheelhouse for Christmas presents. I'm not saying the add-on will match PS3, but it will hold it's own.

And in Spring, when the XBox 360 gets a price break (and/or something else?), will make the equation even more interesting. Patience, b2b... Two weeks does not a format war make.

By the way, have you taken a look at a certain on-line auction site, which has had many PS3s sold at cost or at a loss recently?

Check here for some relevant statistics:

http://www.alexa.com/data/details/traffic_details?url=www.avsforum.com

What's interesting is that the traffic is a lot more than people probably realize.
hey, thanks dude

[http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/12/14/AR2006121400273.html]Sony keeps PS3, margin targets despite headwind[/URL]

"It is true that it took us some time to bring the PS3 to mass production as blue laser availability worked as a bottleneck," Sony President Ryoji Chubachi told a media round table.

"But 2 million and 6 million are within our reach," Chubachi said, referring to Sony's targets to ship 2 million units of the PS3 by the end of the year and 6 million by March.Now what possible good could come from Chubachi saying this? If he is right, then they've done what they said they would do. If he's wrong it only feeds the fact that Sony is not telling the truth. And as we know, 2 million out the back door of the factory does not equal 2 million in the NPD charts.

If Sharp is selling all their diodes to Sony, that would add 150,000 per month. So did Sony have an epiphany in blue laser diode manufacturing?

Ben do you know if your Toshiba supports MC?

anthony, are you saying that mc is currently arequirement of the hd dvd standard? is it a part of the bd standard? i ask b/c i don't know and have no way of knowing as the standards aren't public.

last i read on the topic mc has not been nailed down by those in charge, that is the studios.

Think outside the box.
PCs?

42,000 King Kong.. 197,000 Talladega Nights... That's real data, anything else is just opinion...

Not to inject fact into this statement or anything........but considering Talladega Nights was a pack-in, that doesn't equal 197,000 copies of the movie sold no more than you can say Universal sold 42,000 copies of King Kong.


"But 2 million and 6 million are within our reach," Chubachi said, referring to Sony's targets to ship 2 million units of the PS3 by the end of the year and 6 million by March.

Man, someone at Sony needs to sit everyone down and make sure their numbers match. Weren't those projections 1 million by the end of the year just a week ago? 1 million is an impossible goal. 2 million just makes me laugh and beer come out of my nose.

2 million just makes me laugh and beer come out of my nose.It's 9:13AM Baltimore time. :D

An Interview with Amir on HD DVD (rough translation).

Watch Impress (http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.watch.impress.co.jp%2Fav%2Fdocs %2F20061214%2Frt022.htm&langpair=ja%7Cen&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&prev=%2Flanguage_tools)

Something I've speculated about in previous posts. Delay of the EU PS3 launch. This does not bode well for US supply of PS3s for some time.


I would have thought just the opposite. If units aren't being redirected to Europe, where are they going?

Gary

March:

http://img281.imageshack.us/img281/3541/flyerzb4gk8.jpg

Come on you know what I am getting at and that is the fact that most of the people who want to spread the word about the differences between BD-Live and BD-Video aren't really that interested in informing consumers about the two HD formats. Instead they are far more interested in attacking Blu-ray.


I thought you wanted to inform consumers about their HD players and wouldn't the differences between Blu-ray and HD DVD be part of that?


If you consider BD-Video handicapped because it isn't as good as BD-Live would HD DVD be handicapped compared to BD-Live as well? After all BD-Live does have higher requirements for PiP decoding and persistent storage than what HD DVD requires.


Blu-ray can play discs with both larger capacities and larger bandwidth than HD DVD so if BD-Video players are legacy equipment they are still equipment that is better than the competition in certain areas. Or is the consumer education you are hoping for supposed to leave little facts like that out?


I've now spoken to 3 employees of B&M stores selling BR players. None of them have the faintest clue about -Video vs. -Live capability.

Several google searches using combinations of "BD Video" and "BD Live" turns up some comment about the issue, but in many cases it's in the middle of a forum discussion thread. Certainly nothing obvious from the BDA folks. Of course, I'm not sure how a consumer is supposed to know those particular terms to search on, unless he happens to be an AVS'er. Using more generic serach terms to "educate" yourself about BluRay capability turns up nothing that I suspect the average consumer would find useful in being able to make a purchasing decision.

This seems to be a very well-kept secret.

An Interview with Amir on HD DVD (rough translation).

Watch Impress (http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.watch.impress.co.jp%2Fav%2Fdocs %2F20061214%2Frt022.htm&langpair=ja%7Cen&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&prev=%2Flanguage_tools)I wonder what this means?

If you mention the Microsoft product regarding HD DVD, for Xbox 360 you can list the HD DVD player first. Is demand how?

[majideimaru]: There is a very big demand and, also echo is very good. The people of the general layer where as for being important, the fact that it has purchased is not, generally known “Early adapter layer” calls the 2nd generation, or follows to that, with it means saying. With the, it means that it is important for the market to keep spreading.

Ben do you know if your Toshiba supports MC?

As MC is not ratified defined standard yet, how can anybody?

I see your point though, and if/when it becomes one, I'll be disappointed if clear communication about what MC is and what player capability is required isn't provided by all AACS licensees (both BR and HD DVD).

Official shipping date for Pio BD player:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=768409

As MC is not ratified defined standard yet, how can anybody?

I see your point though, and if/when it becomes one, I'll be disappointed if clear communication about what MC is and what player capability is required isn't provided by all AACS licensees (both BR and HD DVD).

actually the point trying to be made isn't made if MC isn't in the current HD DVD spec...it is not analogous to the bd profile/phased approach, imo.

That IMNSHO would also imply around 5-15% of PS3 owners will use the PS3 as a dedicated player

I still find it puzzling that people don't understand the significance of all PS3s being BD movie players.

What it means is that 100% of all PS3 owners when they are in the video rental shop or walking through a store (Walmart, BestBuy.. etc) can choose to pick up the BluRay movie instead of the DVD or HD-DVD copy, take it home and watch it. Simple.. nothing more, nothing less.

You can prognosticate and calculate all day long to you hearts content, but the reality is that hundreds of thousands (soon to be millions) of PS3 owners are one impulse buy away from being counted as BluRay supporters (whether they know it or not..or you like it or not) ;)

b2b

Well when you require PiP decoding at higher bit rates and resolutions it is somewhat harder to do. Obviously though you don't care about small details such as that.

I think the difference is more likely caused by HDi vs. Java, not bit rates. I'm not sure what difference you're refering to with respect to resolution.


Besides some obvious Blu-ray hatred are you saying that you know for sure that the advantages that Blu-ray has will not make any real world difference? Care to explain how you "know" that?

For a year now we've been constantly told that these advantages are going to make BD superior to HD. All I'm saying is let's see it. If we haven't seen it by now, one has to question whether it will ever be seen.

P.S. - I don't hate BD. I just don't think it's the better solution.

Sonic Collaborates With Toshiba in Support of European HD DVD Launch (http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/061214/20061214005189.html?.v=1)
Sonic to Distribute Toshiba's HD DVD Emulators and Verifier Technology

I still find it puzzling that people don't understand the significance of all PS3s being BD movie players.

What it means is that 100% of all PS3 owners when they are in the video rental shop or walking through a store (Walmart, BestBuy.. etc) can choose to pick up the BluRay movie instead of the DVD or HD-DVD copy, take it home and watch it. Simple.. nothing more, nothing less.

You can prognosticate and calculate all day long to you hearts content, but the reality is that hundreds of thousands (soon to be millions) of PS3 owners are one impulse buy away from being counted as BluRay supporters (whether they know it or not..or you like it or not) ;)

b2b
The reason why you are puzzled is because you continually fail to realize/ignore that all of these PS3's are not going to be hooked up to HD displays. And for those that have hd displays that aren't large enough for the owner to see a benefit they have more than likely come to the conclusion that BD is no better than standard dvd.

The benefit of BD/HD DVD players are only going to be realized for those who have larger HD displays and are sitting close enough to them. You'll be lucky if 25% of console owners fit into that category. It's the marketing dept. guys that will try to convince J6P otherwise. This "reality" you speak of doesn't exist.

It's 9:13AM Baltimore time.

Dude, I have to prepare myself anytime I read this forum. Beer is a requirement.

interesting, i guess sony isn't trying to "starve" toshiba out...

http://www.tgdaily.com/2006/12/14/sony_dvd_burner/

Think outside the box.

That is where I was thinking... ;)

The reason why you are puzzled is because you continually fail to realize/ignore that all of these PS3's are not going to be hooked up to HD displays. And for those that have hd displays that aren't large enough for the owner to see a benefit they have more than likely come to the conclusion that BD is no better than standard dvd.

The benefit of BD/HD DVD players are only going to be realized for those who have larger HD displays and are sitting close enough to them. You'll be lucky if 25% of console owners fit into that category. It's the marketing dept. guys that will try to convince J6P otherwise. This "reality" you speak of doesn't exist.

I think you missed my point again..
What it means is that 100% of all PS3 owners when they are in the video rental shop or walking through a store (Walmart, BestBuy.. etc) can choose to pick up the BluRay movie instead of the DVD or HD-DVD copy, take it home and watch it. Simple.. nothing more, nothing less.

b2b

AVC playback on PC; performance:


http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=2886

I think you missed my point again..


b2b

Your point is pointless. :p

This is what you don't understand and it applies to HD DVD as well:
The benefit of BD/HD DVD players are only going to be realized for those who have larger HD displays and are sitting close enough to them. You'll be lucky if 25% of console owners fit into that category. It's the marketing dept. guys that will try to convince J6P otherwise. This "reality" you speak of doesn't exist.

X-Box 360 Video Marketplace article:

http://console.hardocp.com/article.html?art=MTIzNSwxLCxoY29uc29sZQ==

What it means is that 100% of all PS3 owners when they are in the video rental shop or walking through a store (Walmart, BestBuy.. etc) can choose to pick up the BluRay movie instead of the DVD or HD-DVD copy, take it home and watch it. Simple.. nothing more, nothing less.

You can prognosticate and calculate all day long to you hearts content, but the reality is that hundreds of thousands (soon to be millions) of PS3 owners are one impulse buy away from being counted as BluRay supporters (whether they know it or not..or you like it or not) ;)

b2bGeez - if Sony's original estimates were true (2 million at launch, 4 million by end of 2006), you would already be correct! But Chibachi says 6 million by March 31, 2007. Do you agree?

Carnac the Magnificent (I'm dating myself a bit) - please tell us when there will be 4 million PS3s in U.S. consumers hands. That should offer a beach head for BD movie demand. It will be interesting to see if they can sell 4 million at $500-$600.

I think Sony will hit a wall on U.S. shores around March, where they will be stuck in the 200k per month sales mode. There are just not that many people out there that can afford to spend that kind of dough in the dead of winter on a game machine. I would like to hear your estimates here...

Your point is pointless. :p


This is what you don't understand and it applies to HD DVD as well:

So you would say this is pointless too ??
What it means is that 100% of all Xbox addon owners when they are in the video rental shop or walking through a store (Walmart, BestBuy.. etc) can choose to pick up the HD-DVD movie instead of the DVD or BluRay copy, take it home and watch it. Simple.. nothing more, nothing less.

b2b

So you would say this is pointless too ??
Yup. The only significant difference is that the add-on will most likely be used on HD displays whereas you can't say that for the PS3.

The benefit of BD/HD DVD players are only going to be realized for those who have larger HD displays and are sitting close enough to them. You'll be lucky if 25% of console owners fit into that category. It's the marketing dept. guys that will try to convince J6P otherwise. This "reality" you speak of doesn't exist.You're too obsessed with the size of a TV. Even J6P can buy a Blu-ray version of a movie if it's just 5$ more expensive than the DVD version if he has a PS3 and doesn't have a HDTV ironically because he doesn't have a clue on how good Blu-ray is over a regular DVD. He buys the Blu-ray version just because it's new, can be played on his new PS3 and is future-proof in case he owns an HDTV in future.

In other news...

::cough cough:: guess there aint any

You're too obsessed with the size of a TV. Even J6P can buy a Blu-ray version of a movie if it's just 5$ more expensive than the DVD version if he has a PS3 and doesn't have a HDTV ironically because he doesn't have a clue on how good Blu-ray is over a regular DVD. He buys the Blu-ray version just because it's new, can be played on his new PS3 and is future-proof in case he owns an HDTV in future.

Was there a big sale on rose colored glasses that I missed? ;)

B2b is predicting 100% attach rates for the PS3, and you're predicting that J6P is going to spend an extra $5 for a disc that doesn't look any better on his current TV and won't play in his dvd player or players?

I wonder what this means?
If you mention the Microsoft product regarding HD DVD, for Xbox 360 you can list the HD DVD player first. Is demand how?

[majideimaru]: There is a very big demand and, also echo is very good. The people of the general layer where as for being important, the fact that it has purchased is not, generally known “Early adapter layer” calls the 2nd generation, or follows to that, with it means saying. With the, it means that it is important for the market to keep spreading. Here is my crappy translation:

Amir: "There are very huge demand (for HD DVD add-ons), and great feedback. What important is that those who purchasing are not the so called "early adopters", they are "second generation" people, I mean, general public people. Widening the market (by general public people) is the important factor."Interesting thing is, Amir was refferring to the The DVD Wars (http://www.thedvdwars.com/index.cfm) site in this interview :D

Basically, content of this interview is completely the duplication of internet buzz of here and there, almost zero new information added, with of course, trashing of BD technologies (using the term "Paper spec") and titles, as usual ;)

Was there a big sale on rose colored glasses that I missed? ;)

B2b is predicting 100% attach rates for the PS3, and you're predicting that J6P is going to spend an extra $5 for a disc that doesn't look any better on his current TV and won't play in his dvd player or players?

No, again you mis-understand what I said. 100% of all PS3s are capable of BD movie playback just like 100% of Xbox addons are capable of HD-DVD playback. The only difference is that PS3s outnumber Xbox addons 4 to 1..

b2b

Was there a big sale on rose colored glasses that I missed? ;)

B2b is predicting 100% attach rates for the PS3, and you're predicting that J6P is going to spend an extra $5 for a disc that doesn't look any better on his current TV and won't play in his dvd player or players?You seem to have missed my point completely. I meant J6P doesn't know this point like you do --> doesn't look any better on his current TV
And what about not playable on DVD players? I don't think J6P has many TVs to play it.

No, again you mis-understand what I said. 100% of all PS3s are capable of BD movie playback just like 100% of Xbox addons are capable of HD-DVD playback. The only difference is that PS3s outnumber Xbox addons 4 to 1..

b2b
No, the difference is that 100% of the add-ons were bought to play movies, and you cannot say that about the PS3s.
J

I think Sony will hit a wall on U.S. shores around March, where they will be stuck in the 200k per month sales mode. There are just not that many people out there that can afford to spend that kind of dough in the dead of winter on a game machine. I would like to hear your estimates here...

IMO Sony may face a big problem around March 07.
I read a recent estimate that current production costs for the 360 are around $323 compared to $840 for the ps3 (I don't remember which versions the estimates are for).

That's a $500 difference in production costs between the consoles, which means that MS could, if it wishes, quite easily lower the retail price of the 360 by $100 around March 07 (as it is rumored to be planning) just as the PS3 is ramping up production and launching in Europe. Sony would be very hard pressed to respond with a price cut of its own so early in the PS3's lifespan.

Of course the PS3's production costs will decrease as volumes/efficiencies rise, but there's no reason why the 360's costs cannot also further decrease.
In sum, with a $500 delta it seems unlikely that Sony can keep up with MS in a price reduction race.

IMO it's increasing appearing that the inclusion of BD capacity was a case of over-engineering which will hamper PS3 adoption in the general (non-hardcore gamer/AV-phile) population.
Of course, it is a great bargain for those of us (myself included) looking for an alternative to $1000 standalone BD players.

[http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/12/14/AR2006121400273.html]Sony keeps PS3, margin targets despite headwind[/URL]

"But 2 million and 6 million are within our reach," Chubachi said, referring to Sony's targets to ship 2 million units of the PS3 by the end of the year and 6 million by March.When I saw an article about this yesterday I started thinking about the Enron guy going to jail. 2 million and 6 million in those timeframes just look so unreasonable after what has happened over the last few months that I wonder if an executive using those numbers in the US could get themselves in trouble. The above quote just says, "within our reach", but I thought the article I happened upon yesterday looked a little more definitive though.

--Darin

almost zero new information added


Amir said they will demo internet applications for HD DVD this CES. Agree on the rest. Nothing new.

Toshiba opens an HD DVD cafe in Tokyo (http://plusd.itmedia.co.jp/lifestyle/articles/0612/14/news081.html)

Japanese, but some pics.

Gary

What "subset" of BD-Live features have yet to be added in before the first BD-Live player comes out?

A player is either a plain one (BD-Video) or an online one (BD-Live). A title may offer "online services" available only to "online enabled players".
Don't forget Profile 1.1.

http://www.hometheaterblog.com/hometheater/2006/12/toshibas_hda2_f.html

Just to parse the significance of those fiirst impressions.

It looks like Toshiba has managed to correct all the major complaints of the first generation HD A1. Startup and load times, cludgy remote and responsiveness to commands.

Slow boot up and load times corrected. Check

Cludgy remote fixed. Check.

Player responsiveness to menus. Check.

If error checking and audio sync issues have also improved, the 1st generation issues seem to have been squashed. :)

Now I just have to hear how the HD XA2 is improved over the HD A2 and the HD XA1.

Their initial review to compare
http://www.hometheaterblog.com/hometheater/2006/04/toshiba_hda1_re.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kludge

So that wouldn't be an endorsement of the A2? ;)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kludge

Tom, is this because the A2 contains no Broadcom chips (an NEC instead), or is there some specific architectural facet you'd care to expand on?

While I don't disagree with you, I don't think it's a big issue, since 25/50 support will come with a later firmware. For the beginning I think by far the most interesting content is movies and they're almost exclusively shot in 24p. So my position is that (although I'm affected here in Germany) it doesn't really bother me at all. I'm interested in HD-DVD because of movies, mostly Hollywood stuff. Don't really care much about native 25/50 content right now.

Actually, I *like* that 25/50 is not supported right now! Why? :confused: Because this forces all studios to get rid of the PAL speedup. Once NOT doing PAL speedup for HD-DVD is common practice, 25/50 may be added without the danger that PAL speedup comes back.

I am expressing my naievete here: Isn't it the case that all new displays handle all current vertical refresh rates? So might this only be a problem for older PAL displays?

And in Spring, when the XBox 360 gets a price break (and/or something else?), will make the equation even more interesting. Patience, b2b... Two weeks does not a format war make.Strange, are you actually recommending that we wait and see how the HD DVD add on sales over the next few months before deciding on it? I only wish you would feel the same way about the PS3.


This seems to be a very well-kept secret.Well besides the fact that you didn't even try to answer the questions I asked you just keep repeating how horrible you think the BDA is for making two profiles for players. Also once again if you consider BD-Video handicapped because it isn't as good as BD-Live would HD DVD be handicapped compared to BD-Live as well?


I think the difference is more likely caused by HDi vs. Java, not bit rates. I'm not sure what difference you're refering to with respect to resolution.To clarify this but the maximum PiP bit rate for Blu-ray is higher than what it is for HD DVD. In fact I have heard that Blu-ray PiP is capable of HD resolutions and have noticed that Amir has even attacked HD PiP as unwanted by consumers in several debates, which would indicate that it can be done with Blu-ray.


For a year now we've been constantly told that these advantages are going to make BD superior to HD. All I'm saying is let's see it. If we haven't seen it by now, one has to question whether it will ever be seen.So because you don't believe that the benefits of Blu-ray have been seen yet you don't believe they will ever be seen? So do you also feel the same way about internet extras even though it hasn't been seen yet on HD DVD?

Just to throw my 2c into the fire...

RE: MC

As all HD-DVD players are mandated to have ethernet (and internet) capabilities, this would bode well for them to be hooked up to a MC server as opposed to the BD camp where this is optional. As MC/MMC is not even finalised by AACS, we can't know for sure either way, but it is a heck of a lot easier to firmware update a player with an ethernet port than one without.

In any case, players were never mandated to be MC capable, this was known from the start and applies to both sides. If one wanted the capability to do managed copies, they'd need a device capable of it, this might entail a current player connected to a MC storage device.

iPods advertises the ability to buy music to play on your ipod, computer or even burn them onto CD. The device itself does not allow it to do the above without a computer or computer with burner. Do any of the HD-DVD playback devices have MC as a core advertising bullet point? Because we all know that advanced interactivity is advertised as a core advantage of BD. That this is put out there for people to mull on, don't you think they should also educate the people with regards to this highly touted feature/advantage?

Me personally I don't think it's a big deal... in time there will be more exposure. It's like with the iPod example, I don't ever see an asterix or any such disclaimer with regards the capability to purchase digital tracks, yet few people will complain that they were misled into believing that by buying the iPod they could purchase music in a standalone fashion, there is enough information out there. With BD profiles, a disc may be returned on the basis that a touted feature is not functional, the sales folk might have to explain that they don't have capable machines, the customer might then ask how does one know if they have a capable machine, the only answer at present is to say that if they have a PS3 with the appropriate future firmware, or if their player was available after the specified date (mid 2007), otherwise check with the manufacturer of their machine.

Cheers...
Duy-Khang Hoang

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kludge The HD A1 was admittedly a kludge or overenginered piece with non optimized off the shelf components. But it sold well, a delivered a better picture than its only direct competitor the Samsung Blu-ray player.

The Grumman F6F Hellcat fighter of WWII also was big and bulky but it the job it was designed to do against the Mitsubishi Zero.

Now if you're refereing to the HD A2 instead of the HD A1 please elaborate.

As all HD-DVD players are mandated to have ethernet (and internet) capabilities, this would bode well for them to be hooked up to a MC server as opposed to the BD camp where this is optional.Somewhat, but having an ethernet connection is only one of several things needed for video streaming of an MC to be possible.


Do any of the HD-DVD playback devices have MC as a core advertising bullet point? Because we all know that advanced interactivity is advertised as a core advantage of BD.Sure, but every Blu-ray player does have BD-J capability. What a few people seem to believe is that since BD-Live is better than BD-Video that somehow people are being tricked simply because that fact isn't being advertised. Personally I think that complaint is about as logical as complaining that HD DVD players don't advertise the technical advantages of Blu-ray.


That this is put out there for people to mull on, don't you think they should also educate the people with regards to this highly touted feature/advantage?They will, once they start announcing BD-Live players at CES. It wouldn't make any sense to announce them now anymore than it would be for Toshiba to announce the HD-A3 today.

The HD A1 was admittedly a kludge or overenginered piece with non optimized off the shelf components. But it sold well, a delivered a better picture than its only direct competitor the Samsung Blu-ray player.

The Grumman F6F Hellcat fighter of WWII also was big and bulky but it the job it was designed to do against the Mitsubishi Zero.

Now if you're refereing to the HD A2 instead of the HD A1 please elaborate.

hey, don't start slinging mud at Grumman ("iron works") planes...things may just have to get physical ;)

Strange, are you actually recommending that we wait and see how the HD DVD add on sales over the next few months before deciding on it? I only wish you would feel the same way about the PS3.
Maybe I dig too much on Sony and the PS3, but it goes to the root of what is happening here. MS and Amir say nothing about HD DVD add-on sales. Toshiba says not much about A1/A2 sales. They made no predictions; no extravagent claims about it's success or failure. Theie has been no "we have the studios and CE firms to win this thing". I haven't even seen any advertising for the add-on (yet). It's all word of mouth, AFAIK.

Then there is Sony. They have made every prediction under the sun about PS3 sales, and have revised them numerous times. Normally I'd say who cares, it's marketing; but here, CE firms, studios, replicators, support hardware and software industries, and ultimately, consumers are making decisions based on their numbers. If they are frivolous with them they have to be called out on it.

If they are frivolous with them they have to be called out on it.Well this is what I don't understand. At the same time you feel it needed to call out Sony when they exaggerate there PS3 estimates you never do that with anything related to HD DVD. To take a recent example one frequent HD DVD poster has a signature stating that "What? Bluray players till June-07 already OBSOLETE?!" and yet do you feel any desire to call him out on that? I am just tired of people ignoring stuff like that simply because it helps there preferred format.

Well this is what I don't understand. At the same time you feel it needed to call out Sony when they exaggerate there PS3 estimates you never do that with anything related to HD DVD. To take a recent example one frequent HD DVD poster has a signature stating that "What? Bluray players till June-07 already OBSOLETE?!" and yet do you feel any desire to call him out on that? I am just tired of people ignoring stuff like that simply because it helps there preferred format.

please tell me you were only kidding and you weren't seriously comparing a poster's sig with statements made by public companies?!?

Well this is what I don't understand. At the same time you feel it needed to call out Sony when they exaggerate there PS3 estimates you never do that with anything related to HD DVD. To take a recent example one frequent HD DVD poster has a signature stating that "What? Bluray players till June-07 already OBSOLETE?!" and yet do you feel any desire to call him out on that? I am just tired of people ignoring stuff like that simply because it helps there preferred format.That sig I did not see (I really don't pay attention to sigs that much). But I did see a BD poster in the last day (with the initials R. D. - I can link if you'de like) at first pretending to be "on the fence" and then blatantly lying about his allegiance, motives, and ultimately all things BD and HD DVD, all in the space of his first six posts. Luckily some alert individuals caught him early at his game. So it goes both ways.

Then there is Sony. They have made every prediction under the sun about PS3 sales, and have revised them numerous times. Normally I'd say who cares, it's marketing; but here, CE firms, studios, replicators, support hardware and software industries, and ultimately, consumers are making decisions based on their numbers. If they are frivolous with them they have to be called out on it.

Excellent point. Several BD supporters here have asserted, even boasted, that despite HD DVD's merits, it stands no chance against the overwhelming BD advertising and publicity.
It's only natural then that some of us would chafe at such advertising/PR when we perceive it to be unrealistic or downright untruthful.

Several google searches using combinations of "BD Video" and "BD Live" turns up some comment about the issue, but in many cases it's in the middle of a forum discussion thread. Certainly nothing obvious from the BDA folks.
Google must have been down that day. I googled "BD-Live" (in quotes, with hyphen), and the third result was a link to a BDA FAQ (http://www.blu-raydisc.com/Section-14064/faqs/5/Index.html)
So, yeah, the BDA is hiding this secret deep down on their own obscure site where a google search can find it. Oh, so can typing 'bd live' into the BDA site's search field.

Excellent point. Several BD supporters here have asserted, even boasted, that despite HD DVD's merits, it stands no chance against the overwhelming BD advertising and publicity.
It's only natural then that some of us would chafe at such advertising/PR when we perceive it to be unrealistic or downright untruthful.


I don't know about boasting - I've always taken it as more accepting. It's very dificult to register tone in chatrooms - and to be honest the smilies don't help.

HD-DVD may well be the more elegant solution, but getting three studios and multiple CE's to switch over when there is a lot of money riding on their choice just seems rather unlikely. So I would just like BD to perform as best as it can.

please tell me you were only kidding and you weren't seriously comparing a poster's sig with statements made by public companies?!?


while statements made by public companies are obviously more serious than sigs posted here (by several orders of magnitude) we are forced to look at the sigs when perusing these boards - or at least those of us who can't turn off speed reading.


Making the same point - over and over and over again here against either side doesn't change the behavior of the target company - it's just annoying to slog through looking for the one post of news every other day.

Sony lied to their investors. If their share holders care they will sue. Sony lied to the video game public - they apparently bought all the first releases anyway. Sony lied to the studios (maybe) and movie buying public (definitely) - this got Toshiba to leave a few million on the table, but it apparently hasn't gotten any studios to drop....yet.


So now the PS3 is shipping. The numbers are going up which is why they are only going for $100-$200 above retail on Ebay and Craigslist. Over the next six months we will see if the attach rate is enough for the studios and if the adoption rate of the Add-on is enough for any to go neutral.

That is the present. Everything else is history, and is not news.

...

Making the same point - over and over and over again here against either side doesn't change the behavior of the target company - it's just annoying to slog through looking for the one post of news every other day.

...

That is the present. Everything else is history, and is not news.

amen brother!

i've been preaching this over and over and even after the most recent and very serious/stern warning by mark, some have persisted to carry their respective torches.


some of us try and we post news, even when sometimes it isn't arguably totally 'relevant', but at least news nonetheless.


*sigh*

some of us try and we post news, even when sometimes it isn't arguably totally 'relevant', but at least news nonetheless.Well there you go then...From Variety about 1 hour ago. Which I'm thinking many film industry types probably read...

Blu-ray leads HD-DVD sales (http://www.variety.com/article/VR1117955798.html?categoryid=1009&cs=1)

In the hi-def DVD format war among gamers, Blu-ray has an early lead getting into homes.

But since every PlayStation 3 comes standard with Blu-ray player, whether buyers want one or not, there's no way to tell whether that lead will translate into DVD sales for studios.

According to industry tracker NPD Group, Sony sold 197,000 PlayStation 3's in the U.S. in November, following the console's Nov. 17 launch.

Microsoft, meanwhile, sold 42,000 units of its new HD-DVD player add-on for the Xbox 360 in the U.S. last month. Because the accessory has nothing to do with gaming, industryites can at least be sure that those 42,000 people want to watch HD-DVD movies.

...A snapshot of the war, Dec. 2006.

Well there you go then...From Variety about 1 hour ago. Which I'm thinking many film industry types probably read...

Blu-ray leads HD-DVD sales (http://www.variety.com/article/VR1117955798.html?categoryid=1009&cs=1)

thanks mike, you normally DO post news ;)

If Sony claims to be able to hit 2M by end Dec, that translates to over 100K consoles sold per day for the next 2 weeks.

Much as I hope this comes true, it seems implausible. Or, did I miss some announcements?

PS3 sentiment

The PS3 is struggling to reverse negative perceptions of the console. In nearly every aspect, the console scores below the segment average. Discussion of the Cell Processor and graphics may be the key to changing consumer perceptions in the future as it currently represents its strengths. However, the PS3 has yet to convince consumers that the graphics are superior as sentiment scores still trail the Xbox 360 by 0.4 points — no improvement from last week.

http://www.brandintel.com/brandintel.aspx?pageid=industries_gaming_tracker

To take a recent example one frequent HD DVD poster has a signature stating that "What? Bluray players till June-07 already OBSOLETE?!"
Thank you for the kind invitation to join this little discussion...

The point my sig makes, is that Bluray couldn't get all the stuff HD DVD has in it's HDi spec to work up front - or they didn't know enough about the HDi spec up front.

Either way, they launched with what I would term a "stop gap spec" - just a little something to "tide them over" during the "launch" (I use that term generously), but nowhere near as good as the HDi spec in HD DVD.

Apart from patching up the current Bluray players just to be able to manage the basic BDJ (or "stop gap") spec - these early players have almost zero chance of ever being able to handle BD-LIVE (as in, they are lacking the hardware to decode two video streams at once, connect to a network, etc).

So, they are effectively obsolete before you even get them home.

Will they play a basic Bluray movie? - sure. Will they be compatible with ALL features on future Bluray discs? - not a chance. Yeah - talk about the PS3 all you like in response - it doesn't count in this discussion, no more than a PC would. I am talking about these $1,000 to $1,500 standalone players that will NEVER be able to handle BD-LIVE.

Why are there TWO BD player specs? - as I postulated above, it can only come down to two reasons -

(1) they weren't ready (BDA) to finalise the java specs, because they hadn't got it all sorted out, or hadn't had long enough to copy the HDi functionality they wanted to copy

(2) they kinda knew what they wanted the java to do, but they weren't ready, because they didn't have any hardware designs yet that could put everything they needed together to handle the specs they were thinking of.

HD DVD , on the other hand, was ready! Boy was it ready... You don't see three different versions of the HDi spec floating around, nor promises that by JUNE 2007, they be able to do the REAL stuff, do you?

So that's what I meant - which is pretty much exactly what I put "on the box". The bluray players on sale now, are effectively obsolete.

If you'd like me to repeat it, I shall.

To avoid circular discussions, I will just copy the post number for replies...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9176200&&#post9176200

Bickering and trolling are preferable to "news" such as a "sentiment" survey.

http://www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/2006/pulpit_20061208_001308.html

Relevant part quoted:

----------------------------------------
"..good news for Microsoft is that they have won, for now, the game console war. To be fair, though, it isn't just that Microsoft won but that Sony lost. Blu-ray laser diode shortages are constraining PS3 production just at a time when Microsoft has a shot at breaking even on the production cost of its xBox 360s, which are gaining economies of scale. But the most important win here is the hearts of game developers, and those will go to whatever platform has the greatest number of units in the field, which, for high-end game consoles, means Microsoft.

Don't get me wrong, Sony's PS3 is technically superior to Microsoft's xBox 360, but NOT SUPERIOR ENOUGH. Wooing game developers from 12-15 million xBox 360s to instead write games for a couple million PS3s would require those PS3's to be an order of magnitude better as a game platform. Just somewhat better isn't enough, so for this round, at least, Microsoft wins.

And if Microsoft wins, that means HD-DVD wins, too, leaving Blu-ray as the Betamax of HD optical drives. And like Beta, Blu-ray will probably find its (much smaller) niche in professional markets that can take advantage of its eventual greater capacity."
--------------------------------------------


I see an inflated number and one leap of logic, but that's me. YMMV

Seemed a pretty good application of logic to me... (shrug) he's talking about the future, as I see it.

I will leave it to those with the patience of a Job to dissect it in written form, but show that to a 1st year business school student and he can poke at least one large hole in that analysis.

www. the dvdwars.com has undergone a site makeover. The site is also tracking game system and HDTV sales. They seem to have incorporated feedback of some issue sthat have been discussed here. The search graph has been updated to set HD DVD and Blu-ray as the correct searched terms.

Significant additions including a snapshot and list of every HD title tracked as well as allowing one click of the charts in a 7 day 30 day and all historical data views.

http://www.eproductwars.com/vg/

BTW the Blu-ray sales spike in the "number of titles in top 10000" graph has dropped back down to the Blu-ray norm.

I'll have a shot at it:

Wooing game developers from 12-15 million xBox 360s to instead write games for a couple million PS3s would require those PS3's to be an order of magnitude better as a game platform.

That's obviously a future and hypothetical scenario, because neither the Xbox 360 has sold 12-15 million units nor the PS3 has sold 2 million. The author doesn't say exactly when will sales reach those thresholds. But, if we are to believe a certain site's stats (8,500,000 Xboxes vs 500,000 PS3s), then the writer is assuming that from now on, the Xbox 360 will move 3.5 - 6.5 million units whereas the PS3 will move only 1.5 million, in the same time period. That's between 2x and 4x. Is that realistic?

Secondly: "And if Microsoft wins, that means HD-DVD wins, too [...]."

That's indeed a leap of logic. A hypothetical victory of the Xbox 360 in the nex-gen console arena does not equate to a victory in the hidef video format arena.

Of course, having more Xboxes out there means having more add-ons, if attach rate stays unchanged. But that is only one factor of many.

BTW, an analyst (yeah, yeah) has said that he expects 900,000 PS3s to sell in the US by year-end.

http://www.next-gen.biz/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=4405&Itemid=2

First look at the Toshiba HD-E1 on areadvd (http://www.areadvd.de/hardware/2006/Toshiba_HD-E1_11.shtml).

First look at the Toshiba HD-E1 on areadvd (http://www.areadvd.de/hardware/2006/Toshiba_HD-E1_11.shtml).Speaking of the HD-E1, it will hit U.K. retail stores days before Christmas. HD-E1 pricing is expected to be revealed on December 18th. HD-XE2 has been pushed back to early 2007.

new thread:

Format Battle General Discussion Thead: Discuss it here! (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9178015&&#post9178015)

this thread remains open but is for news only please:

new thread is for general discussions: it stays open as long as everyone remains civil and follows forum rules please :)

New EE Times article:
http://www.eetimes.com/news/latest/showArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=D3DSEHJLXLQFCQSNDLSCKHA?article ID=196604372
Chubachi attributed a string of embarrassing production glitches this year to an accelerating manufacturing environment. "With the shift from analog to digital, the environment of production has changed," he said. "The clock started turning around faster than in the past. That deprived us of time and processes to fully investigate troubles and get feedback."

He noted that Sony is not alone in facing manufacturing challenges. "We have to catch up to the changes as quickly as possible, but in some areas, we have not yet done so," Chubachi acknowledged.

BTW Thanks for the new "Wars" thread Mark. I hope you mods move non-news/fighting posts to the new thread when they continue to be posted here.

Bob

BTW Thanks for the new "Wars" thread Mark. I hope you mods move non-news/fighting posts to the new thread when they continue to be posted here.

Bob

Totally agree.

anandtech:
HD-DVD Playback - On the Xbox 360 & on NVIDIA GPUs (http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=2890)

Well besides the fact that you didn't even try to answer the questions I asked you just keep repeating how horrible you think the BDA is for making two profiles for players. Also once again if you consider BD-Video handicapped because it isn't as good as BD-Live would HD DVD be handicapped compared to BD-Live as well?




Richard, you keep bringing other format issues in to this. I'm deliberately NOT trying to make this a format war issue, therefore I'll decline to respond those aspects.

If you want to make a sperate point comparing the interactivity of the two format's, feel free.

To be clear: I don't feel BD-Video is handicapped. I do feel that selling players now, knowing full well that there are plans to author discs that will be not work with all features on these player as they are today, and without clear communication regarding these issues, handicaps the conumers ability to make an informed choice.

Somewhat, but having an ethernet connection is only one of several things needed for video streaming of an MC to be possible.


Where is it said that the COPY part of MC required video streaming?

Any video streaming comes form the playback device, which is not what you were asking about, nor what hdkang was replying about. Therefore how does your answer of only "Somwhat" regarding ethernet connections on HD DVD players have anythng to so with this?

Please redirect all debate here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9178015&&#post9178015).

Google must have been down that day. I googled "BD-Live" (in quotes, with hyphen), and the third result was a link to a BDA FAQ (http://www.blu-raydisc.com/Section-14064/faqs/5/Index.html)
So, yeah, the BDA is hiding this secret deep down on their own obscure site where a google search can find it. Oh, so can typing 'bd live' into the BDA site's search field.

Ah.. cool there is indeed mention of it then. Althought without quotes it's 9th, not third, which is how I was searching. So, do you think this sufficiently clarifies it for the end user?:


Every Blu-ray Disc player can deliver pristine, high-definition picture, theatre quality audio, DVD compatibility and interactive capabilities beyond anything seen with DVD.
Some Blu-ray Disc Players, those with Internet connections can connect to the internet which enables the end user to download additional content to the player’s internal memory, as well as the ability to enjoy unique, “web-enabled” interactive features.


A further question: Are the players that have ethernet connections today BD-Live capable players? Is this an assurance they will be for all manufacturers?

Well, I just saw Mark's new thread post. If you'd care to move my posts from a bit earlier today that landed "after" your post Mark, I'm cool with that.

New EE Times article:
http://www.eetimes.com/news/latest/showArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=D3DSEHJLXLQFCQSNDLSCKHA?article ID=196604372


BTW Thanks for the new "Wars" thread Mark. I hope you mods move non-news/fighting posts to the new thread when they continue to be posted here.

Bob

yes mark, thanks...

tough to move em

But from this point on please limit posts here to NEWS only :)

Toshiba to Sell EMI, Exits Music Business (http://www.cdrinfo.com/Sections/News/Details.aspx?NewsId=19297)

Funny, I didn't even know Toshiba was in the music business.

The decision reflects Toshiba's strategy to concentrate resources on its core operations, such as computer chips and nuclear power plants.

PS3 sentiment

The PS3 is struggling to reverse negative perceptions of the console. In nearly every aspect, the console scores below the segment average. Discussion of the Cell Processor and graphics may be the key to changing consumer perceptions in the future as it currently represents its strengths. However, the PS3 has yet to convince consumers that the graphics are superior as sentiment scores still trail the Xbox 360 by 0.4 points — no improvement from last week.

http://www.brandintel.com/brandintel.aspx?pageid=industries_gaming_tracker

That's a cool site. Thanks.

Gary

new thread:

Format Battle General Discussion Thead: Discuss it here! (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9178015&&#post9178015)

this thread remains open but is for news only please:

new thread is for general discussions: it stays open as long as everyone remains civil and follows forum rules please :) You are my mod hero. :)

Please be ruthless in this thread to limit the conversation OT to the news being discussed. Witty banter and inuendo can go to the new thread. :D

Mark,

The need battle thread needs to be made sticky.

Wii manufacturing costs ring up to just $158? (http://www.engadget.com/2006/12/15/wii-manufacturing-costs-ring-up-to-just-158/)

http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/www.engadget.com/media/2006/12/12.15.06---wii_cost_comparison.jpg

Interesting comparison of Xbox Live HD Download vs. HD-DVD

http://www.engadgethd.com/2006/12/15/xbox-live-marketplace-vs-hd-dvd-comparison/

More PS3 (and Wii) on the way... ;)
USA Today reports that stores will be promising Wii stock in their Sunday circulars, leading to probable campouts, as more PS3 shipments are also expected; analyst predicts 900,000 PS3s, 1.5 million Wiis sold by year-end.
http://www.next-gen.biz/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=4405&Itemid=2

b2b

Can you catagorically confirm the PS3 does support PiP for BD titles today?Nope. You'll have to wait until Dec 26th for the release of The Descent.

- Talk

This just in:

-- AACS is optional on HD DVD

-- AACS is mandatory on Blu-ray

-- The pope wears a funny hat

And it only took CED 2 pages to summarize that. :)

This just in:

-- AACS is optional on HD DVD

-- AACS is mandatory on Blu-ray

-- The pope wears a funny hat

And it only took CED 2 pages to summarize that. :)

I heard HDnet HD DVD titles isn't protected by AACS. Why takes two pages?

IF u r holding anything fragile or is drinking, please stop or put the fragile stuff aside. Ed Burnette from ZDNet has made a 'study' and the result is earth shatteringly shocking:

Blu-ray drives only $1 more than HD-DVD

ROTFLMAO :D :D imagine how BD players owners would feel if this is true .. :D

http://blogs.zdnet.com/Burnette/?p=219

Most people don't expect companies to sell their goods at cost +/-

IF u r holding anything fragile or is drinking, please stop or put the fragile stuff aside. Ed Burnette from ZDNet has made a 'study' and the result is earth shatteringly shocking:

Blu-ray drives only $1 more than HD-DVD

ROTFLMAO :D :D imagine how BD players owners would feel if this is true .. :D

http://blogs.zdnet.com/Burnette/?p=219 He wasn't actually seriously to say that Blu-ray drives cost only a $1 more to manufacture based on how much the consumer price of a option of a built to order laptop was he?

I mean equal consumer pricing does no have to mean equal cost or profit margin.......

You mean, HP and/or Toshiba are much more greedy? ;)

You mean, HP and/or Toshiba are much more greedy? ;) In this case HP & Dell was not "greedy" but setting the option price to market conditions. the fact that they could only sell the Blu-ray option at the asme price as the HD DVD option and they made less profit on one or the another, isn't greed, its market conditions. Same as the PS3 subsidy.

If Toshiba was subsidizing its G1 player costs and giving a better dealer for consumers than thats not greed either. Its a legit market decision. If you want to talk about greedy, talk about Blu-ray palyer standalone player costs. ;)

actually the point trying to be made isn't made if MC isn't in the current HD DVD spec...it is not analogous to the bd profile/phased approach, imo.


Ben: why? do the current BD specs require PiP? Like PiP it is a feature that is not required today (and will be optional later) but will be added later that might require you to buy a new player. No one is saying today "You're player might not support MC, disks will come out latter that have that feature and if you want to use it you will need a new player

If Sony claims to be able to hit 2M by end Dec

What'sHD: ship mot sold

even though I am guessing they would sell as fast as they reach the shelves, once shipped they still need to get there

The benefit of BD/HD DVD players are only going to be realized for those who have larger HD displays and are sitting close enough to them. You'll be lucky if 25% of console owners fit into that category. It's the marketing dept. guys that will try to convince J6P otherwise. This "reality" you speak of doesn't exist.


smithfarmer: I disagree. Do you think people went DVD over VHS because of PQ? many bought because it was new, others for convenience (no rewind, chapters...) and others because of extras (more languages, extra clips.....)

Why do you think studios wanted a new menu system? They know it is the extras that sell disks to J6P.

You also missed that PS3 owners are people that are willing to spend a lot on gaming to be on the for front. They also will have a higher percentage of HDTVs

And lastly your analysis also misses that even on SDTVs BD will look a bit better and the novelty effect of a new cooler format. Yes this might fall under “marketing” but if sells the concept and HD disks who cares how you categorize it.

tough to move em

But from this point on please limit posts here to NEWS only

sorry Mark, did not see this until now

Folks, there's a seperate thread that Mark set up for debate of the news on the format war. Let's use that for debate.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=769114

For all you Rob Enderle lovers out there.

This weeks article where he states: "...Why did Sony Fail?

Finally, Blu-Ray simply wasn’t ready. If anything killed the PS3, Blu-Ray did. By not being able to build enough drives, they sold one tenth the number of consoles they could have sold during the launch week and given the projected 2M (interesting to note that this projection mysteriously got adjusted down to 1M) they were supposed to produce in 2006 will be at about one tenth potential by year end.

Sony had arguably the best marketing campaign of the three systems this year and, even with the other two problems, would have sold out on the strength of its installed base had they been able to build product. But as mentioned above, this market collapses after the holidays and it is the holiday sales that set the foundation for game sales.
http://news.digitaltrends.com/talkback159_page3.html
http://news.digitaltrends.com/talkback159_page3.html


Discussion continued in the Format Battle thread....
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=769114

smithfarmer: I disagree.
Rather than substantiate my post here or in the new thread (lost context) I sent you a pm.

In this case HP & Dell was not "greedy" but setting the option price to market conditions. the fact that they could only sell the Blu-ray option at the asme price as the HD DVD option and they made less profit on one or the another, isn't greed, its market conditions. Same as the PS3 subsidy.Huh? BD drive has more added value than just a "movie-playback-only" device which is HD DVD-ROM drive. Why Dell has to sell BD drive at the same price of HD DVD-ROM drive? Doesn't make sense at all, does it?

If Toshiba was subsidizing its G1 player costs and giving a better dealer for consumers than thats not greed either. Its a legit market decision. If you want to talk about greedy, talk about Blu-ray palyer standalone player costs. ;)I have heard so much word like "greedy" accusing BD companies. If someone wants to accuse BD companies as "greedy", then HP or its drive vendor Toshiba should also be accused as "greedy". Make sense? ;)

News only on this thread, pretty f***ing please. ;)

******

areadvd has posted its full review of the Toshiba HD-E1 here (http://www.areadvd.de/hardware/2006/Toshiba_HD-E1_01.shtml)

Pros:
Very good picture quality
Excellent back-compatibility over optical out via DTS 5.1 encoding

Cons:
No 1080p/24 playback
Perceptible fan noise

Universal players avert DVD format duel (http://www.eetasia.com/ART_8800446156_480200_4b6379c3200612.HTM)

As leader of the BD camp, Sony Corp. has bet big on that format. Its Playstation 3 is a BD system. And on the content side, Sony's Columbia Pictures is releasing titles on BD. Calling the format debate "emotionally charged," Doherty said he believes Sony is urging CE vendors not to develop the universal player, because "it would give HD DVD credibility."

Why Xbox Live Video Marketplace Competes Well Visually With HD-DVD (http://xyhd.tv/2006/12/03/why-xbox-live-video-marketplace-competes-well-with-visually-with-hddvd.aspx)

Memory-Tech to roll out Chinese HD DVD discs (http://www.dvd-intelligence.com/main_sections/news_archive/2003_free/1212_memory-tech.htm)

Memory-Tech is increasing its investment in the China-based Shanghai United Optical Disc so that it can begin production of pre-recorded HD DVD discs with an initial annual capacity of about two million discs in 2007.

Memory-Tech to roll out Chinese HD DVD discs (http://www.dvd-intelligence.com/main_sections/news_archive/2003_free/1212_memory-tech.htm)

If they are going to produce HD DVD discs for the Chinese market, then one can assume they will need players to play them on... any info on that Mike?

Thanks!

News only on this thread, pretty f***ing please. ;)

******
My I make a suggestion that we allow only the link and quotes from the news item and a initial short summary and/or comment to be posted in this thread and that any discussion be started in the new "format battle thread" by a complete quote of that news post in its entirety, followed by any new discussion comments.

That would leave this thread clean and basically a news summary. If people would be more like reporters in their comments and leave the partisan comments to the battle thread, it might work out.

Toshiba launches HD-E1 HD DVD player in the UK

18 December 2006 - 18

18 December marks the first day that an HD DVD player is officially available in the UK, courtesty of Toshiba.

http://www.pocket-lint.co.uk/news/news.phtml/5913/6937/toshiba-launches-hd-e1-player.phtml

AVS discussion http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9204399#post9204399

http://www.newscientisttech.com/article/dn10817-invention-taser-gets-tougher.html

Anyone know where the individual studios stand on Regional coding?

ted

Good find. For the patent tex: http:// tiny url .com/y5q4r5

(BTW why is tiny-url censored?)

'Marie Antoinette' Coming to Blu-ray (http://dvd.themanroom.com/dvd-newsview.php?id=415)
Feb. 13

*********

New 'Alexander' Cut Coming to HD-DVD, Blu-ray in 2007 (http://dvd.themanroom.com/dvd-newsview.php?id=414)

Little bit old news about next gen disc sales order share in Japan from AV Watch (http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.watch.impress.co.jp%2Fav%2Fdocs %2F20061215%2Fbdhdvd.htm&langpair=ja%7Cen&hl=ja&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&prev=%2Flanguage_tools)

http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20061215/bdhdvd.gif

Note: This share figure is specific to the Amazon.co.jp through Impress Watch site since last August, and is not representing sales through other sales channels.

Time Magazine calls PS3 a bust.

From Buzz to Bust
(http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1570831,00.html)
"The big story in computer games this year was HOW TO BLOW A HUGE LEAD, by Sony... You know you're in trouble when you get beat by something called a Wii."

Just a reminder folks, there's a dedicated thread to debate the format war.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=769114

Hellooooo! News only please!!

Toshiba brings HD-DVD to UK (http://www.infomaticsonline.co.uk/vnunet/news/2171224/toshiba-brings-hd-dvd-uk)

My I make a suggestion that we allow only the link and quotes from the news item and a initial short summary and/or comment to be posted in this thread and that any discussion be started in the new "format battle thread" by a complete quote of that news post in its entirety, followed by any new discussion comments.

That would leave this thread clean and basically a news summary. If people would be more like reporters in their comments and leave the partisan comments to the battle thread, it might work out. News only in this thread please.

Discuss in the battle thread.

Sharp begins making blue lasers for next-gen DVDs

http://www.cpilive.net/v3/inside.aspx?scr=n&NID=1037&cat=GLOBAL%20NEWS&pub=RESELLER%20WORLD%20MIDDLE%20EAST&k=Sharp,%20blu-ray

Wicked Pictures, Dimension DVD Produce First Adult HD-DVD

CANOGA PARK, Calif. - Wicked Pictures has become the first adult video company to penetrate [sic] the HD-DVD market with its release of Jonathan Morgan’s slasher-movie spoof, Camp Cuddly Pines Power Tool Massacre. The title is tentatively slated to ship on Friday.

Full press release here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9212761&&#post9212761).

cdrlabs: Sony BWU-100A Blu-ray Disc writer review (http://www.cdrlabs.com/reviews/index.php?reviewid=295)

This just in:

-- AACS is optional on HD DVD

-- AACS is mandatory on Blu-ray

-- The pope wears a funny hat

And it only took CED 2 pages to summarize that. :)

Alex,

I think I understand what "optional" means, and I certainly agree about the funny hat. But can you clarify, in a news-worthy fashion, what "mandatory" means in this context?

I.e. would this apply to self-authored BDs or just for replicated ROM titles from studios? I don't ever recall seeing a CSS-free packaged DVD, so this may be sort of a no-brainer for BD (and odd for HD), but I'd like to confirm that.

-John

As far as I understand, AACS is required for BD-ROM disc only, it's not "mandatory" for self-authored BD-R/BD-RE discs. Panasonic player plays BD-R/RE with no problem, PS3 does not play BD-R/RE discs which has BDMV format, but it plays BD-R/RE discs with BDAV format. BD-ROM discs are required to have AACS as well as ROM Mark.

It appears bad news for Sony is hitting the mainstream media circles.

From BusinessWeek: Sony Screws Up (http://www.businessweek.com/innovate/content/dec2006/id20061219_590177.htm?campaign_id=bier_innc.g3a.rssd1219o)

This got some coverage earlier when suspicions were raised - but Sony has just admitted it.

Bear in mind trust issues are raised as a reason some won't buy into Bluray.

http://www.itwire.com.au/content/view/8138/53/

"Sony caught faking PSP fan site"

You guys, this thread is "HiDef DVD News VII". This is not for the game cosole battle, is it? :rolleyes:

You guys, this thread is "HiDef DVD News VII". This is not for the game cosole battle, is it? :rolleyes:

I have no intention of engaging in a debate regarding consoles and their merits. The point of my post was to show the "bad press" following Sony around is no longer being confined to "Fanboy" sites and the ilk. I think when articles start appearing in major press circles such as Time Magazine and BusinessWeek then one should take note.

You guys, this thread is "HiDef DVD News VII". This is not for the game cosole battle, is it? :rolleyes:

PS3 has been put into play for the bd format and therefore, imo, is covered by hidef news...

PS3 has been put into play for the bd format and therefore, imo, is covered by hidef news...

And because the PS3 is made by Sony and the PSP is made by Sony, it follows that an allegedly dishonest PSP campaign is fully apropos and has its place in the hidef disc news thread.

Puh-leeze.

Dr. Schenk supplies leading European HD DVD replicator (http://oto-online.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=142&Itemid=44)

Quantum Optical Laboratories (QOL) in Vernouillet, France, has extended its QC system with a Dr. Schenk PROmeteus MT-200.blue offline measurement system for HD DVD. Established in 2001, it was the first replicator to start HD DVD production in Europe, and now has nearly half of its lines laid out for the format.

Laurent Villaume, president of QOL, commented: "Our excellent relationship and experience with the Dr. Schenk company for the past five years was the reason for our choice." His replication team, he added, particularly appreciate the high flexibility and easy usage of the PROmeteus system.

Speaking out for replicators (http://oto-online.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=35&Itemid=47) Page 22 - Industry voice: Tom O'Reilly

I would admit it is a fair point in the sense that if enough customers tell an AIMMA
member company to provide Blu-ray Disc manufacturing,they will,despite this public support for HD. I doubt it would put the association into spin-control, though. Replicators, by our very nature, make copies of what our customers ask us to.The press release merely makes AIMMA’s opinion known. For better or worse, we do what our customers request, especially if it helps pay the bills.

The bigger picture is that this press release shows that the American replicator has a voice, perhaps for the first time ever.The AIMMA press release states what I have been hearing from replicators individually throughout the year; that HD is a much less expensive format to manufacture,and therefore less expensive and easier to gear up for.

I have heard figures that say purchasing the necessary equipment to manufacture Blu-ray discs – namely, a replication line and mastering system – would be in the neighbourhood of $4 million, while upgrading an existing DVD replication line and mastering system to manufacture HD discs would cost less than $1 million. Who can blame replicators for choosing the side that would cost significantly less for us to ramp up for?

This is a good example of why we need a voice. I have watched and been part of an industry for some 11 years that has made little effort to tell its story to prospective customers, or stand up for itself against related industry trade associations and organisations. I have heard and seen enough that makes me feel the replication industry is hardly on a level playing field when it comes to patent royalties,yet no one in North America has ever spoken up publicly, to my knowledge.

And because the PS3 is made by Sony and the PSP is made by Sony, it follows that an allegedly dishonest PSP campaign is fully apropos and has its place in the hidef disc news thread.

Puh-leeze.


Not "allegedly" dishonest -- Sony admits to being dishonest.

And yes it is warrented since Sony is the major backer of Blu-ray. Anything either Sony or Toshiba as a company has potential impact on the format war. But since this is a news thread I would defer discussion to the other thread.

Yeah, news about Sony impacts BD if the consumer knows that BD is led by sony. I didnt know myself until I came to AVS, but YMMV.

(tongue-in-cheek) Btw, i hope everyone knows about the HP boardroom fiasco. Since HP is one of the more major members, I reckon its important we are aware of this. I dont want fellow AVSers to trust the wrong format alliance *shudder*

And because the PS3 is made by Sony and the PSP is made by Sony, it follows that an allegedly dishonest PSP campaign is fully apropos and has its place in the hidef disc news thread.

Puh-leeze.

did i slip a p at the end of my ps, gosh i sure hope not... :rolleyes:

i was responding to rio's general statement to keep consoles out; i read that as ps3...didn't realize that the two posts preceding were about the psp...i haven't been keeping up lately and been trying to avoid getting tangled up ... not enough time, nor desire...

Yeah, news about Sony impacts BD if the consumer knows that BD is led by sony. I didnt know myself until I came to AVS, but YMMV.

(tongue-in-cheek) Btw, i hope everyone knows about the HP boardroom fiasco. Since HP is one of the more major members, I reckon its important we are aware of this. I dont want fellow AVSers to trust the wrong format alliance *shudder*

Sony IS BY FAR THE biggest supporter of BD...if you dispute that then i guess you would also dispute the earth is egg-shaped ;)

Disney release their first VC-1 BD title

More good news for Microsoft .. Disney release their first VC-1 BD title. Does this imply anything? :p


Due in stores today, Disney's latest wave of Blu-ray titles features the studio's first VC-1-encoded title, the Jodie Foster thriller 'Flightplan.'

As first announced last month, Buena Vista has three new Blu-ray titles arriving in stores today: 'Flightplan,' 'Pearl Harbor' and 'Invincible.' But while all of the studio's previous Blu-ray titles have utilized the MPEG-2 and AVC MPEG-4 codecs exclusively, they've snuck 'Flightplan' in under the radar with a 1080p/VC-1 transfer (the studio's press release for the title incorrectly stated that the disc would be released with MPEG-2) .

Another one to come :)

the studio has already lined up its second VC-1 release, 'Casanova,' which is due for release in early 2007.

http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/Disc_Announcements/BD-50/Buena_Vista/Buena_Vista_Quietly_Goes_VC-1_With_Flightplan_Blu-ray/398

opps link edited .. thankx rdjam

Wrong Link - here's the one http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/Disc_Announcements/BD-50/Buena_Vista/Buena_Vista_Quietly_Goes_VC-1_With_Flightplan_Blu-ray/398

Good catch, G555!

And the BR folks said it would never happen! :)

Can't wait Disney's switch, right? ;)

Sony BWU-100A Blu-ray drive gets playback upgrade (http://www.cdrinfo.com/Sections/News/Details.aspx?NewsId=19322)

China firms make last-ditch effort on EVD (http://www.eetimes.com/news/latest/showArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=QZEHY0312CWMEQSNDLSCKHA?article ID=196701016)

Three weeks ago, the EVD Alliance had said (http://www.smh.com.au/news/home-theatre/china-to-phase-out-dvd-players-report/2006/11/29/1164777686817.html) that by 2008, its members would stop producing DVD players, favoring EVD instead. It turns out that it wasn't true. Most alliance members are waiting to see how the market works out. "We won't run the risk of quitting DVD or HD-DVD only to support a homegrown standard," said Chao Chen, a marketing manager at Amoi Electronics, which is a member of the EVD Alliance but hasn't started making players yet.

Germany: Toshiba delivery problems (http://www.digitalfernsehen.de/news/news_123428.html)

About 1,200 HD-E1s (flown in from China) will reach retail by Christmas. There are nearly 10,000 preorders.

Ken Kutaragi sez: I "promise" an AV-centric PS3 (http://www.engadget.com/2006/12/20/ken-kutaragi-sez-i-promise-an-av-centric-ps3/)

This just in from our Tokyo bureau: according to an interview conducted by Japan's Impress, Sony's Ken Kutaragi has gone on record with a "promise" for what he's calling an AV-centric PS3. In other words, audio and video capabilities first, gaming second (if at all), in a device built around the Cell-processor platform. Ken says that the device would certainly be more expensive, reflecting the prices and margins expected on high-end consumer electronic devices such as TVs, Blu-ray personal video recorders, etc. -- not the relatively cheap, but powerful gaming rigs sold at a loss under Sony's Computer Entertainment division. Impress speculates that the device could cost as much as ¥300,000 or about $2,500.

Disney release their first VC-1 BD title

More good news for Microsoft .. Disney release their first VC-1 BD title. Does this imply anything? :p




Another one to come :)



http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/Disc_Announcements/BD-50/Buena_Vista/Buena_Vista_Quietly_Goes_VC-1_With_Flightplan_Blu-ray/398

opps link edited .. thankx rdjam


it's on a bd50, so unless the total size is 30gb or less, it wouldn't imply anything in my mind other than disney using all of the available encoders ... like kicking the tires on the new car :)

nice to see them use vc-1 though ... it will be interesting going forward if they end up settling on one encoder predominantly.

Ken Kutaragi sez: I "promise" an AV-centric PS3 (http://www.engadget.com/2006/12/20/ken-kutaragi-sez-i-promise-an-av-centric-ps3/)

wouldn't a pc-based bd player get grilled around these parts?

interesting, when i first read it i didn't realize that what was being reported is a new device based on the ps3 that would be an a/v device almost, if not totally, exclusively...

kjack, any news to report on universal players given your recent post on the insider's thread revealing that you were recently looking into issues surrounding universal players?

a recent interview with folk at denon as reported by the audiodesignline website seems to suggest that denon could be looking at bowing a uni end of next year/early '08...(many misspellings/typos in this article...)

http://www.audiodesignline.com/news/showArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=VNMPNZ3VSFOLCQSNDLPCKHSCJUNN2JV N?articleID=196602183

wouldn't a pc-based bd player get grilled around these parts?

interesting, when i first read it i didn't realize that what was being reported is a new device based on the ps3 that would be an a/v device almost, if not totally, exclusively...Maybe Sony trying to go down the same path as this rumor back in November...

Can Microsoft Say 'Home Server? (http://www.crn.com/sections/vista/vista.jhtml?articleId=194600006)

The company plans to have an inexpensive Longhorn-based home server available at retail as early as April, sources said.
...
Says one Microsoft source, carefully speaking in the hypothetical: "It would be nice to come out with a very low-cost/low profile server--something easy to use and easy to add large hard drives to. It would not only back up all the PCs in your house, but also handle patch management, anti-virus/spam filtering/anti-spyware/firewall, AND also act as a TV server." (Emphasis mine.)
...
On the TV side, the (hypothetical) user would plug in his/her cable TV or satellite feed into this same box and could then run Slingbox or some like-minded app on every PC in the abode to stream broadcast wherever.

There could be a cheapo USB remote control for these devices, so users could watch PC-resident programming on the TV or monitor in the bedroom, in the tub. Wherever.

Bundles and high price creating PlayStation 3 glut (http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=21856)

The high price of the PlayStation 3, along with the retail practice of bundling the console with software, has lead to a glut of stock online, claims tracking firm NotifyWire.

The company believes the fervour greeting the console launch has already slowed, with consumers put off by forced software and hardware bundles which in some cases can see the retail price doubled.

"I think we're already at the point where people won't pay a premium for the console or be forced into buying bundles," said Ian Drake, president of NotifyWire.
Drake believes interest is waning for the console, and compared the speed in which new Xbox 360 stock sold out before Christmas 12 months ago.

"Last year we tracked several one thousand dollar Xbox 360 bundles which would sell out in less than two minutes after becoming available."

Drake noted a US $1000 PS3 bundle was on offer at an online retailer for over 12 hours recently, claiming, "This sort of thing didn't happen with the Xbox 360 until well after Christmas."
...

I think this rates as "News"
Warner's release policy and 'catching up' explained
Grubert has a thread opened giving details..

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=772035

b2b

Germany: Toshiba delivery problems (http://www.digitalfernsehen.de/news/news_123428.html)

About 1,200 HD-E1s (flown in from China) will reach retail by Christmas. There are nearly 10,000 preorders.

translated to English by Worldlingo

http://www2.worldlingo.com/SH0gfCf2o9dMm6JC8N0r95Z1eCLQQrTXj/translate

Bundles and high price creating PlayStation 3 glut (http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=21856)

what bundles were being sold with the Xbox? compared to the PS3?
I've had these same misgivings as a PS3 movie player buyer; I prefer an unbundled player...

what bundles were being sold with the Xbox? compared to the PS3?
I've had these same misgivings as a PS3 movie player buyer; I prefer an unbundled player...They are referring to any number of games, controllers, movies and other accessories sold with the consoles during their introduction to maximize profit. If you google you will find all sorts of bundles offered...

And because the PS3 is made by Sony and the PSP is made by Sony, it follows that an allegedly dishonest PSP campaign is fully apropos and has its place in the hidef disc news thread.

Puh-leeze.

His reasoning is not far reaching at all. Sony Pictures used fake "gushing" movie reviews, as goes the PSP. So nothing is beneath them at all ;)

NCH Releases ExpressBurn with Blu-Ray and HD-DVD Support (http://news.yahoo.com/s/prweb/20061220/bs_prweb/prweb492954_1)

Gettem while their hot!

http://www.tgdaily.com/2006/12/20/ps3_shipment/

Sony was unavailable for comment on this somewhat PS3 shipment, but industry sources told TG Daily that at least 100,000 units may have arrived within the past days.

Sony declined to comment on a specific number on how many Playstation units were shipped to the U.S. in recent days. A spokesperson told us that the consoles "are made and shipped" as quickly possible and are arriving on an ongoing basis on these shores.

Sales of the PlayStation 3 in the Japanese market have finally begun to rise, four weeks after the console was launched, according to data from Media Create.

Sales for the week of 4 -10 December were a solid 60 percent higher than the week before and that could mean console-maker Sony Computer Entertainment is making good on its promise to increase production of the PlayStation 3. Sales of the console fell for the first three full weeks after launch due to Sony's inability to keep up with demand.

Sales in the week from 4 -10 December were 50,171 consoles, Media Create says. That makes it the second-best week for the PlayStation 3 since its launch week in early November when 81,639 consoles were sold, according to the market data provider.http://reseller.co.nz/reseller.nsf/news/451850E4588366A9CC25724B000BB8BF

what bundles were being sold with the Xbox? compared to the PS3?
I've had these same misgivings as a PS3 movie player buyer; I prefer an unbundled player...


It was similar to the current bundles with the PS3. Quick google shows:

http://www.xb360info.com/xbox/news/126


Kbtoys! Xbox 360 Ultimate Bundle $949.99 Status:

eStarland is claimed to have Xbox 360 bundles in stock
Xbox 360 Premium System $399.95 Status: <
Xbox 360 Core System $299.95 Status:
Gamestop has Xbox 360 bundles, with an estimated delivery time of January 31, 2006:
Xbox 360 Pro Steel Bundle $999.86
Xbox 360 Pro Titanium Bundle $1,499.77


There's also Amazon's:
http://www.amazon.com/Xbox-360-Ultimate-Bundle-Mature/dp/B000BB56OS

When i got my 360 early this last spring, I didn't bother with a bundle because they were fairly high in supply and not as much in demand (probably due to the glut in games at the time).

I got my PS3 from Target, so didn't get a bundle, but now that I think about it I might as well have since I bought 2 games and 2 Blu-ray movies (to go with the 2 Blu-ray movies I had purchased a couple weeks ago).

Paramount: 'Mission Impossible III' Top Selling Hi-Def DVD (http://www.homemediaretailing.com/news/html/breaking_article.cfm?article_id=10072)

Sony Passes the 800,000 mark for the PS3.

http://vgcharts.org/

Sony Passes the 800,000 mark for the PS3.

http://vgcharts.org/
thanks for the link dude.

The 360 nos. seem a little low though.

There's no way to know how accurate those numbers are.

There's no way to know how accurate those numbers are.

"I like not those numbers! Give me some other numbers!"

:D

From where does the data come? (http://vgcharts.org/welcome.php)

VG Charts uses a proprietary system which takes publically available data from the above three trackers along with sales and shipment data released from the game manufacturers in Japan to produce what we feel is the most accurate depiction of the pattern of sales for each title.

It sounds oh so scientific -- remember... there are lies, damn lies, and statistics.

"I like not those numbers! Give me some other numbers!"

:D

From where does the data come? (http://vgcharts.org/welcome.php)
Their Japan numbers seem to be more or less well founded. But they don't say where they get their US numbers from. And I do doubt the US numbers. At least the Xbox 360 numbers seem off. Microsoft is clearly estimating to sell over 10 million units by the end of the year. VGCharts shows 6.74 million sold units and it's only 10 days to go. That doesn't sound very reliable to me. In the past Microsoft's estimations about Xbox 360 sales have usually been spot on.

Ok, VGCharts say that they update the numbers only when they have new information. That's just fine, but they should add the date when they changed the numbers the last time. I guess their Xbox 360 US numbers at least are very old.

teamxbox, Dec. 8 (http://news.teamxbox.com/xbox/12405/Xbox-360-Selling-Better-Than-The-Original-Xbox/)

Since it was released on November 2005, gamers bought 3.79 million units of the Xbox 360 [in the US].

[...]Microsoft has announced it expects to surpass its previously forecast global shipments of 10 million by the end of 2006, because the company already anticipates to sell more than 10 million Xbox 360s into retail.


We've been here before

Expects != Achieves
Forecast != Actual
Global != American
Shipments != Sales

teamxbox, Dec. 8 (http://news.teamxbox.com/xbox/12405/Xbox-360-Selling-Better-Than-The-Original-Xbox/)



We've been here before

Expects != Achieves
Forecast != Actual
Global != American
Shipments != Sales

Just so there's no confusion, it looks like the 3.79 number comes from the NPD estimate, and is not the announced number by Microsoft.

Expects != Achieves
Forecast != Actual
Global != American
Shipments != Sales
True, but:

October 26th (http://www.microsoft.com/msft/earnings/FY07/earn_rel_q1_07.mspx): Microsoft claims to have "sold" 6 million xbox 360
October 26th (http://news.teamxbox.com/xbox/12113/Microsoft-Confident-to-Meet-Xbox-360-Shipping-Target/): Microsoft forecasts to reach 10 million by year's end
December 6th (http://www.joystiq.com/2006/12/06/moore-claims-360-will-surpass-10-million-milestone/): Microsoft expects to surpass the forecasted 10 million due to a "very strong Thanksgiving holiday"
December 21th (http://vgcharts.org/): VGCharts lists 6.74 million

Don't you agree that 6.74 looks quite a bit on the low side, especially as the December 6th link indicates that Xbox 360 sales seem to be higher than originally expected?

And again: VGCharts lists 3 Japan trackers as their source, but they don't say exactly how they get their US data. I don't see any indication that VGCharts is any more reliable than nexgenwars for US and Europe data. Please note that I'm not saying nexgenwars would be reliable, either.

Just so there's no confusion, it looks like the 3.79 number comes from the NPD estimate, and is not the announced number by Microsoft.

Except that confuses the issue, since NPD is tracking sales to consumers. Microsoft would only be able to announce its sales, which are to distributors and retailers (shipments).

Gary

Don't you agree that 6.74 looks quite a bit on the low side, especially as the December 6th link indicates that Xbox 360 sales seem to be higher than originally expected?


It shows 4.49 million for the Americas. If you take the NPD number and add 10% for Canada, and some for the rest of the Americas, the vgcharts number seems reasonable (to the NPD information).

The low side would be Europe. It seems most sites assume Europe == USA(doing well in Europe). Vgcharts.org is saying the XBox 360 is doing poorly in Europe.

That would be the discrepancy.

Gary

PS3 Blu-Ray Remotes In The Wild (http://www.kotaku.com/gaming/sony/ps3-bluray-remotes-in-the-wild-223430.php)

We've been getting reports that the Blu-Ray Remote (aka the PLAYSTATION®3 Blu-ray Disc™ (BD) Remote Control) is now showing up in stores.

PS3 Blu-Ray Remotes In The Wild (http://www.kotaku.com/gaming/sony/ps3-bluray-remotes-in-the-wild-223430.php)

Good price for it but you would think by now that all remotes for HT viewing would have a darn backlight on them (hint hint to BR & HD CE companies)

Except that confuses the issue, since NPD is tracking sales to consumers. Microsoft would only be able to announce its sales, which are to distributors and retailers (shipments).

Gary

I had a long and convoluted response to this, but in deference to this being a news only thread, I'll delete it :)

I had a long and convoluted response to this, but in deference to this being a news only thread, I'll delete it :)

things around here are convoluted enough ;)

Paramount: 'Mission Impossible III' Top Selling Hi-Def DVD (http://www.homemediaretailing.com/news/html/breaking_article.cfm?article_id=10072)

How does Paramount know MI-3 is the most popular high-def packaged media? Do they know what the releases from the other studios are doing sales-wise?

Do they break out the sales Blu-Ray vs. HD-DVD?

I'm skeptical that Fox and Disney will flip or go "neutral" but if Parmount's claims are accurate and the "neutral" studios see higher sales from dual-releases, regardless of titles (obviously an action blockbuster will sell better than a small ensemble drama), then Fox and Disney might be tempted.

That article seems to be a re-print of an older article. I wonder if it is still the same. There seems to be so many other movies in both formats that are rated higher in sales then MI3 on dvdwars, MI3 hardly even makes it into the top 10

cdrinfo: LITE-ON BD B LH-2B1S Blu-Ray Drive review (http://www.cdrinfo.com/Sections/Reviews/Specific.aspx?ArticleId=19332&PageId=0)

DVD spells digital video decline (http://biz.gamedaily.com/industry/feature/?id=14818)

Persistent year-over-year declining sales of DVDs at Best Buy and Circuit City stores might portend trouble for the movie industry, according to a Wall Street analyst report released Wednesday.
...
The analyst is predicting good fourth-quarter results for movie companies "given a great DVD release schedule." It is 2007 and 2008 that worries him, and sales of next-generation DVDs, be they Blu-ray Disc, HD-DVD or both, won't help, either, at least not in the near term.

"Bottom line, keep an eye on 2007 film industry profits," he wrote. "We suspect the risk to expectations is increasingly to the downside, with downside risk growing into 2008 unless there is a notable acceleration in next-gen DVD sales and/or a more attractive business model emerges for digital movie distribution."Rhetorical question ('cause there is no debate in this thread, and I don't read too much of the battle of the bands thread) - Is there any pressure in the industry to resolve the war at this time?

Backtracking a bit...

http://www.forbes.com/2006/12/19/ps3-xbox360-costs-tech-cx_rr_game06_1219expensivegames_slide_5.html?thisSpeed=20000

Curious who is reaping the rewards from each $60 game sold? Based on interviews with industry players and experts, we've broken down the dollars and cents of the console gaming industry to see who's getting the most action.
Console Owner Fee: 11.5% (about $7)

This is why Sony, Microsoft and Nintendo are laboring so mightily to make their machines to success: Each gamemaker that wants to roll out a new title has to fork over a fee for each unit sold. This may vary per console maker--some publishers say creating games for the PlayStation 3 is more expensive because of fees Sony charges to use its Blu-Ray DVD standard. "But that number can get smaller depending on the publisher's status," says Peer Schneider, vice president of content publishing at IGN, News Corp.'s gaming portal. "The fee can be waived for exclusivity to a platform--that will buy you a kickback."No surprise there (to me anyway). Wonder if that will ever extend to movies and music?

From AV Forum meeting in Beijing yesterday.

Memory-Tech Mr. DingWei

"We are the biggest OEM in Japan. We now have production lines which could do HD DVD, HD DVD-China version, and DVD. Our line could switch freely between HD DVD-China version and DVD. HD DVD-China version is physically the same as HD DVD which also has hybrid spec. We now have three lines in Shanghai,China which could produce HD DVD/HD DVD-China version. All in all, the compatibility test between HD DVD, HD DVD-China version, and DVD is finished."
Memory-Tech demoed "Shangri-la" HD DVD-china version on Toshiba G2 player at the meeting. The video footage is from NHK Japan.


Warner China VP.

"We will release HD DVD/blu-ray in China 3-4Q 2007. We have 38% market share in USA this year. There are 700K HD DVD/Bluray players in USA. Warner sold around 500k HD DVD/Bluray copy this year."

Panasonic China R&D Head Mr. Zhao

"I am willing to put my hand on the good book and tell everybody that Sony and Panasonic could already mass produce DL-50GB ROM in Japan and USA. Many ask me is Bluray expensive? I want to explain here that Bluray use the same material as DVD. The material cost would be the same. Next year, our 9.5mm slim drive will come. We care about the market in China. We already start a work group to focus on this issue. BDA also works on one-stop license term. All 3c and 6c members attend this one-stop negotiation except Toshiba."


BTW, during the two day AV Forum meetings, EVD was not mentioned a single time.

Talk about ducking the real question: Mr. Zhao - "Many ask me is Bluray expensive? I want to explain here that Bluray use the same material as DVD. The material cost would be the same."

Obviously when someone asks if Bluray discs are more expensive to manufacture, they don'y mean "Is the plastic inside the disc more expensive?" - sheesh :)

"We will release HD DVD/blu-ray in China 3-4Q 2007. We have 38% market share in USA this year. There are 700K HD DVD/Bluray players in USA. Warner sold around 500k HD DVD/Bluray copy this year."


Hmm... very interesting. Wonder what the date of their data was:

500k (?) PS3
60k Tosh A1/XA1
50k MS 360 add-on
90k Misc BD players (Sony, Panasonic, Samsung, Philips, Pioneer)?
? A2

From AV Forum meeting in Beijing yesterday.

Memory-Tech Mr. DingWei

"We are the biggest OEM in Japan. We now have production lines which could do HD DVD, HD DVD-China version, and DVD. Our line could switch freely between HD DVD-China version and DVD. HD DVD-China version is physically the same as HD DVD which also has hybrid spec. We now have three lines in Shanghai,China which could produce HD DVD/HD DVD-China version. All in all, the compatibility test between HD DVD, HD DVD-China version, and DVD is finished."
Memory-Tech demoed "Shangri-la" HD DVD-china version on Toshiba G2 player at the meeting. The video footage is from NHK Japan.


Warner China VP.

"We will release HD DVD/blu-ray in China 3-4Q 2007. We have 38% market share in USA this year. There are 700K HD DVD/Bluray players in USA. Warner sold around 500k HD DVD/Bluray copy this year."

Panasonic China R&D Head Mr. Zhao

"I am willing to put my hand on the good book and tell everybody that Sony and Panasonic could already mass produce DL-50GB ROM in Japan and USA. Many ask me is Bluray expensive? I want to explain here that Bluray use the same material as DVD. The material cost would be the same. Next year, our 9.5mm slim drive will come. We care about the market in China. We already start a work group to focus on this issue. BDA also works on one-stop license term. All 3c and 6c members attend this one-stop negotiation except Toshiba."


BTW, during the two day AV Forum meetings, EVD was not mentioned a single time.

two things:
- warner already sold 500K...wow, not even a full year...seems pretty impressive right out of the gate for hd optical media

- i guess it won't be a one-stop license if toshiba didn't attend...lol

Talk about ducking the real question: Mr. Zhao - "Many ask me is Bluray expensive? I want to explain here that Bluray use the same material as DVD. The material cost would be the same."

Obviously when someone asks if Bluray discs are more expensive to manufacture, they don'y mean "Is the plastic inside the disc more expensive?" - sheesh :)


well, he didn't lie...after all, he put his hand on the good book ;)

well, he didn't lie...after all, he put his hand on the good book ;)

Whats that, the Sony Manual?

XBox 360 Live looks like it's off to a good start w/ hi-def downloads, according to Variety.

Xbox marks spot for hi-definition downloads (http://www.variety.com/article/VR1117956232.html?categoryid=1009&cs=1)

In a topsy-turvy year for the digital download biz, a videogame service in just a few million homes is ending 2006 with more momentum than the world's biggest e-tailer.

The relative success of video downloads on Microsoft's Xbox Live and disappointment of Amazon.com's Unbox point to two factors that differentiate Xbox from Amazon and its many other competitors -- consumers who download a movie want a simple way to watch it on their TV, and those with high-def TVs want high-def content.

Thanks to the Xbox 360's direct connection to a TV and the console's focus on HD content, Microsoft can deliver both. Though exact sales figures aren't available from any Web site or studio, insiders agree that it's the most, and maybe only, positive story in digital movie downloads this year.

...[lots more]
BTW, does anyone else find it constricting to talk about this stuff, when we have to turn to another thread to do so, and people there are talking about something completely different?

XBox 360 Live looks like it's off to a good start w/ hi-def downloads, according to Variety.

Xbox marks spot for hi-definition downloads (http://www.variety.com/article/VR1117956232.html?categoryid=1009&cs=1)

BTW, does anyone else find it constricting to talk about this stuff, when we have to turn to another thread to do so, and people there are talking about something completely different?

No, I do not find it constricting. It is a relief to be able to read news items, form my own judgement and MOST IMPORTANTLY avoid the large amount of BS that the thread contained before the split. I have not visited the other thread since the split.

I have not visited the other thread since the split.OK. BTW, with regards to visiting the other thread, I'm with you. :cool:

I find this thread a joy to read and have come back to it after months of not participating. So please keep it up.

To address Mike's concern, I think a bit of discussion on the news items as is occuring, is a good middle ground. I think people got frustrated with the bickering between the same few people, on the same few topics. Talking a bit about the new news should be OK...

On the new thread, it has some of the failings of what was going on here, but because it is a new thread, it brings in new people into the discussion, hopefully with new insight. That's the hope anyway :).

I find it ok, and a bit of relief to find mostly news in this thread.

Its a little constricting, but I think its heading to the right balance as this thread can be used for the news summary and the active discussion of those items can continue in that discussion thread for those that are interested.

If there is a topic I want discussed, I think its OK to quote the post with the link on it and bring it over to that thread.

It works as long as the "cease fire" in this thread holds.

On the new thread, it has some of the failings of what was going on here, but because it is a new thread, it brings in new people into the discussion, hopefully with new insight. That's the hope anyway It is also starting to have what was so interesting sometimes in this thread with the point counterpoint sometimes bringing in a complete perspective.

The "failings" brought repetitious nonsense but sometimes nuggets of truth on both sides.

The advantage of that being a "format war" discussion thread is that the people that loved this thread for HD news items can breath a bit better over here for the summary news.

I would like to discuss the implications of the news here more, but I think that is best done at this point in the other thread as any implications inherent in these new articles bring comments that quickly spin blue or red.

I think its best to try and force discussions over to that thread. At least for now.

No, I do not find it constricting. It is a relief to be able to read news items, form my own judgement and MOST IMPORTANTLY avoid the large amount of BS that the thread contained before the split. I have not visited the other thread since the split.
Agree 100%.

Agree 100%. I agree with the improvement of this thread. I have been an active participant in the other thread, but I like those noisy comments not intruding on the signal here.

Better signal to noise in this thread is better for all concerned. :)

I agree with the improvement of this thread. I have been an active participant in the other thread, but I like those noisy comments not intruding on the signal here.

Better signal to noise in this thread is better for all concerned. :)
Agree. People bringing in the news should be able to put a bit of summary or short comments, though. They have earned it. We can then take that to the other thread to create our favorite noise.

- warner already sold 500K...wow, not even a full year...seems pretty impressive right out of the gate for hd optical mediaDoes anybody remember what Warner's predictions were back in the Spring? I remember a figure like $750 million, but not sure if that is right and whether that was for software if it is. I think those numbers were for all companies, but 500K at $25 each would be only $12.5 million.

38% market share with around 500k sold would mean that the total market was about 1.3 million disks sold.

I assume the 700k for players was supposed to be 70k.

--Darin

European DVD sales dip 5% (http://www.variety.com/article/VR1117956125.html?categoryid=13&cs=1)
Rental market expected to fall by 7%

Interesting points:
- It is forecasted that Blu-ray and HD DVD will begin to take hold after video-on-demand has.
- High-def video formats are expected to increase average prices and boost the market. SD DVD is too cheap for its own good. ;)

Agree. People bringing in the news should be able to put a bit of summary or short comments, though. They have earned it. We can then take that to the other thread to create our favorite noise.I agree, Anyone who brought the news link earns a quote from it and a summary or a couple lines of comments. Heated discussion should go to the other thread with a pasted quote. IMHO

My take:


My I make a suggestion that we allow only the link and quotes from the news item and a initial short summary and/or comment to be posted in this thread and that any discussion be started in the new "format battle thread" by a complete quote of that news post in its entirety, followed by any new discussion comments.

That would leave this thread clean and basically a news summary. If people would be more like reporters in their comments and leave the partisan comments to the battle thread, it might work out.

News only in this thread please.

Discuss in the battle thread.

please keep in mind a complete copy/paste of a copyright article is not allowed

Quoting snippets is preferred

and please always give all the credits of anything you quote or article you refer to

Thanks & Happy Holidays

CED is reporting that retailers have confirmed the MSRP on the Sammy BD-P1000 is now officially $799, and they also confirmed $50 spiffs, so certain big box pushers will have a little more incentive to push the deck out the door to make way for something new some to come...

Cyberlink launches PowerDVD Ultra for Playback of HD DVDs and Blu-Ray Discs (http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/061222/20061222005321.html?.v=1)

* Support for HD DVD and Blu-ray Disc playback on leading drives, including the Microsoft Xbox 360 HD DVD external drive
* Playback of high-definition Hollywood movie content
* Optimized performance for playback of high-definition video content on graphics cards featuring NVIDIA PureVideo, ATI Avivo, and Intel Clear Video technology
* Support for new next-generation disc features, like Picture-in-Picture movie mode, networking, interactive BD-J and iHD features, bookmarks, and advanced disc navigation
* High-definition audio with support for Dolby Digital Plus, Dolby TrueHD, and DTS-HD technologies
* 6.1-channel surround sound, ensuring compatibility with home theater audio systems, and audio expansion of up to 8 channels
* Support for double-layer HD DVDs and Blu-ray Discs
* Conformance to the High-bandwidth Digital Content Protection (HDCP) specifications for the playback of premium content through DVI and HDMI connectors
* Support for BUS Protection ensures premium content protection via VGA systems.

Clarification.. ?

News only, News with comment, News with comment and retort.. ??

b2b

My vote would be News with a brief line stating what the news is. It shouldn't be an invtiation to start a debate. I've taken news links from this thread to the format debate thread where we can feel free to debate the news item.

Amidst the chaos above by Mssrs. Zuber and Bonez, I plod on, undaunted...The road less traveled...Cut me some slack here, 'cause I'm reaching...

Toshiba: We'll Beat Sony To The Living Room With Cell (http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,128312/article.html#)

Yoshihide Fujii, president and chief executive officer of Toshiba's digital media network company, said Thursday evening that development work is continuing but he wouldn't be drawn on what types of products or applications Toshiba is eyeing for the Cell chip. But on one issue, he left no doubt. When asked if Toshiba would have Cell-based consumer electronics products on sale ahead of Sony, he emphatically replied "yes" without hesitation.

Anyone asked why would anyone put a Cell processor in say, a TV? Perhaps for codec decoding? Who knows..And what does that have to do with this?

Can Microsoft Say 'Home Server?' (http://www.crn.com/sections/vista/vista.jhtml?articleId=194600006)

But it would be a good way to obviate the need so many feel to have a TV in nearly every room. If you've got nice monitors all connected up, you'd start watching programs on them served up from your Microsoft TV-slash-home server combo. In the words of Jim Morrison, "wha'-de-say?"

TV - meaning a tuner/cable box/DVD player included on every setup in every room,

vs.

Monitor - graphics processor on board of "TV"s to decode VC-1/MPEG-2/AVC...with a network feed...

In such a case, lower bandwidth is better than higher bandwidth, no? The net-connected home?

My vote would be News with a brief line stating what the news is. It shouldn't be an invtiation to start a debate. I've taken news links from this thread to the format debate thread where we can feel free to debate the news item.

Great idea!

Blu-ray, HD DVD fight for high-definition market (http://www.fredericknewspost.com/sections/news/display.htm?storyid=55071)

- Yet another recap and two 'insiders' offering their respective 2 cents.

2channel's above suggestion is now the operating rule for this thread from this point forward (pending OP's approval). Notation added to first post. (Gee, that sounded all official and businesslike, didn't it?)

Toshiba's SED TV a no-show at electronics show (http://news.com.com/2100-1041_3-6145540.html)
Toshiba's long-awaited SED TV will not be appearing at the Consumer Electronics Show in January after all.
...
The delays, according to analysts and competitors, have hurt the chance for SED to secure a place in the market. Prices for LCD TVs and plasmas have been dropping rapidly over the past few years and often faster than expected, while sales have climbed. Competitors thus allege that SED will be too expensive, despite manufacturing advances, to compete effectively.

Toshiba did not state whether the cancellation at the show will affect the release date of the first SED TVs. Nonetheless, analysts and competitors will now likely begin to speculate on another delay as a result of the cancellation.

A Toshiba representative declined to explain the reason for the cancellation, but a note sent to people with appointments to see the SED TV at CES said it wasn't due to technical issues.

"The reason is neither a technical nor business issue, but we are not allowed to disclose details due to confidentiality obligation," the note read. "Toshiba further believes that the issue will be resolved soon, and then we will be able to come back to the U.S. for a 55-inch SED demo."

The delay is related to an ongoing lawsuit bewtween Canon and Nano-Proprietary, according to a source that works with Nano-Proprietary, whose Applied Nanotech subsidiary licensed technology to Canon relating to SED TVs. The deal subsequently devolved into a lawsuit. Nano-Proprietary and Canon are now in closed-door settlement talks. :(

Comments about SED and HD DVD from Toshiba's execs:
http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/article/NEWS/20061222/125747/

"We'll ship, but it won't be cheap" -- Mr. Atsutoshi Nishida, president of Toshiba made a comment about SED at year end party with press.

Mr. Nishida said that who is really expecting of SED is broadcasting industry. "There are studios saying that they'll buy 100 or even 200 SEDs if they could buy", Nishida said. They think LCD and PDP are not enough as a reference monitor in the studio.

SED is planned to be shipped at autumn 2007, "Few, expensive and high-end", according to Mr. Nishida, Toshiba is targeting at professional use. With regard to the construction plan of mass production factory at Himeji, "We are proceeding based on the plan". However, "SED could not win the market against LCD TV" in the general TV market, Mr. Nishida indicated that they will not go into the current TV market.

...

As to HD DVD, Mr. Yoshihide Fujii, president of Digital Media Network company of Toshiba commented "It's very difficult to check the compatibility of players. It's better to manufacture millions of players by Toshiba only and provide (to the market)".

As to competing Blu-ray camp, Mr. Nishida said "We hope they will come to stimulate the industry", "There are already 300 HD DVD movie titles as of the end of 2006. Same like the DVD market was rapidly grown by inclusion to PCs, we expect that those who watch movies on PCs will lead the market by HD DVD inclusion to PCs. With regard to the Blu-ray disc playback function of PS3, "Only 10% users who purchase it for watching movies, others are game users", Mr. Nishida commented.

Ultimate AV has a lengthy review of the PS3 as BD disc player...

PlayStation3 Blu-ray Disc Player (http://www.guidetohometheater.com/hddiscplayers/1206ps3blu/)

Back from late October.

Imation: How Blu Ray and HD DVD are made - Documentary (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1250257575160328105&q=hd-dvd&hl=en)

OK - I viewed with sound...Mandatory viewing is now required by all AVS members. Nothing really new, but this is good introductory stuff. Hi-def 101. Highly recommended. :)

Superthread!
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9258988

CES - Toshiba plans aggressive HD DVD push at CES

When asked if Toshiba would be announcing cheaper players Fujii remained tight-lipped on the company's plans but said, "At first I though the price threshold is $499. Maybe coming next is $399 and after that is $299." He didn't give a timeframe for this possible drop in prices.

http://www.networkworld.com/news/2006/122506-ces-toshiba-plans-aggressive-hd.html

New BD-R/RE profiles to talk about--details to follow tomorrow.

Not sure if this counts as "news" or not. And if it doesn't, please feel free to remove.

Circuit City is now carrying the Toshiba A-2 HD DVD player. Price at $499. According to CC website they are now available in stores as well as online.

http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/Toshiba-HD-DVD-Player-HDA2/sem/rpsm/oid/169466/rpem/ccd/productDetail.do

Felt it was relevant news considering Circuit City's reluctance to sell Toshiba hardware (except for a scant laptop or two). Again, if it doesn't "count" just remove.

2channel's above suggestion is now the operating rule for this thread from this point forward (pending OP's approval). Notation added to first post. (Gee, that sounded all official and businesslike, didn't it?)

Sure. Just back from power loss + vacation - so don't know whats happening ...

News from the 7th BDA Japan Seminar, held in the beautiful Iidabashi Rainbow-Building earlier this December. Given the new post/comment rules, I've made my own sarcastic comments inline, helping cut down posts. I also plan on recycling this post, to further help Mother Earth.

-- The BDA JTC reiterated the June 1, 2007 cutover for mandatory DL support in BD-R/RE devices. The wording is such that DL BD-R/RE reading support is not required (ever) for BD-ROM devices...the market will work that one out. No word on the PiP enforcement clause, which they usually speak about in passing...in the absence of anything negative, I'd expect it's still a go.

-- They also reiterated the January 2007 target for the move to 4x in the new v1.2 BD-R physical spec, with RRT to begin Q2 '07. Also reiterated that the jump from HtL to LtH will be spec'd January 2007 as well, with RRT to run in parallel to the new 4x RRT in 2007 (but with DL and 4x both optional). More BD-R RRTs in late 2007, testing new waters, with still more BD-RE RRTs (logical) throughout 2007. With the BDA finally eschewing inorganic, I suspect we'll see BD-Rs at Whole Foods in early 2008.

-- BIG NEWS: on the application front, we now have BD-RE v3 and BD-R v2 which enable BDMV content on BD-R/RE media...both books are identical to BD-ROM v2, save for no RPC and deploying only a subset of BDMV, called Realtime Recording and Editing Format (RREF), that excludes BD-J and is limited to AVC video and DD/LPCM audio (golly...wonder where *that* idea came from!). The idea is to wed camcorders to the video chain in a compatible manner, with compatibility defined as AVC and DD/LPCM only.

-- Another round of BD-Video testing (well, technically the first RRT) will kick off Q2 '07, with the first BD-Live plugfest scheduled for Q3 '07 to boot, following on the heels of inside BD-Live testing in late Q2 '07. With that, I'll wager good money that BD-Live won't surface until Q4 '07.

-- In the "Yet more things I didn't know" bucket: there is no final CPA for ROM Mark licensees in place...only an interim agreement...and content creators aren't required to license ROM Mark in the interim...and 3C is the official ROM Mark licensing entity (well, that last one was kind of obvious).

-- It *looks* like BD+ isn't quite ready for use yet...neither the BD+ System Content Participant Agreement nor the Eligible Code Developer Agreements have been finished...in fact, it looks like they haven't even started writing them yet...and yet Fox has released content...hmmm...but Sony is the sole contact for BD+ agent questions...send 'em to bd-plus@jp.sony.com and tell 'em Richard Paul or b2b sent you...

-- There's a formal Blu-ray Disc LOGO GUIDE available now for BDA members...lots of pretty graphics and such...and there's a Blu-ray Disc Indication Guide, which "define(s) common indications related to Blu-ray Disc to help consumers distinguish the types of medias and its compatibility with the hardware"...so, the BDA is finally stepping up to the plate to help the consumer figure out BD-Video vs. BD-Live and the such...about time...the helpful consumer guide is available for download at http://www.blu-raydisc.info/licensee_REV3_only/licensee_page.htm, but I think limiting its access to BDA members only will cut into its usefulness a bit...

-- Panasonic easily won the prize for largest .pdf at 20MB, discussing their DIGA lineup for Blu-ray, specifically the new DMR-BW200 and DMR-BR100 units. I gave up at 10MB...

-- Sony (well, the Vaio guys) reported that their "BD mid-term plan" was to show "market expansion" in 2007 and "many surprise!" in 2008...they are categorizing Blu-ray PC products by use case: Type R Master for content creators (it looks like something Darth Vader would own, very cool), Type X Living Blu-ray PC for "heavy recording" consumers, Type L Casual odd form-factors for ordinary use and a Type A laptop stamped "SECRET!" on a page talking about drag-and-drop BD-R video creation with BD-JAVA menu creation (I guess they didn't get the "Call it BD-J" memo, nor did they get the memo that BD-J authoring is not going to be supported for consumer use in the new BD-RE v3 and BD-R v2 application formats).

-- Dolby did a report on DD+ and DTHD on Blu-ray...nothing new (e.g., DD+ limited to 1664Kbps 7.1 primary and 256Kbps 5.1 secondary in Blu-ray, current Blu-ray decks ignore DD+ dependent substreams to extract pure DD, Blu-ray required the creation of Dolby Lossless to deal with the fact that Blu-ray needs a sidecar DD stream, DDCO for encoding 640Kbps 5.1 on-the-fly, etc.), except for some random trivia (e.g., the "format_sync" for DTHD is 0xF8726FBA, vs. 0xF8726FBB for its MLP Lossless parent, the current Dolby Media Encoder cannot handle 7.1 DD+ encodes but will do so in the future, etc.).

Console Shortage May Linger Well Into 2007
Analysts are not optimistic about upcoming console quantities

http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=5467

100,000 HD DVD player sales for world wide total, Toshiba forecasted [original Japanese] (http://headlines.yahoo.co.jp/hl?a=20061227-00000011-nkn-ind), [Google translation] (http://www.google.co.jp/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fheadlines.yahoo.co.jp%2Fhl%3Fa%3D20 061227-00000011-nkn-ind&langpair=ja%7Cen&hl=ja&ie=UTF8)

Toshiba forecasted that world wide HD DVD player sales in this year will be around 100,000. Although Toshiba is targeting 500,000 - 600,000 sales by end of March 2007, it becomes a delicate situation whether it will be able to achieve this target or not.Whether this sales estimation includes all Toshiba HD DVD related products, not only standalone players but also PC drive, Xbox360 add-on and HD DVD recorder, is unclear from the original article.