HiDef DVD News VII - News Only : AND WE MEAN IT: NEWS ONLY [Text View] - Page 9

Richard Paul

12-13-06, 07:07 PM

-Seriously.. the time for commuincation is NOW. Or more accurately some time back when Samsung first started accepting their customer's credit cards without anybody telling them they will have a "next gen" player that will only be capable of playing a subset of all the features that will be avialable on BR discs in a just a few months.No offense but are you going to go out and tell people the differences between Blu-ray and HD DVD? After all if you really want people to know everything about their players shouldn't they also know what the specs of each format are as well?

Unless there's a general expectation that it should be able to.No offense but unless a feature was advertised by the manufacturer you can't blame them for somebody's personal expectation. For instance I remember arguing with someone who once told me that the HD-A1 could decode DTS-HD audio. Should Toshiba have been criticized for not supporting DTS-HD simply because someone thought that they did?

Exactly Richard... EXACTLY.. they don't know that, yet in the previous sentence you expect them to know the difference between BD-Video and BD-Live.Nonsense, and I never indicated that I expected people to know the difference between BD-Live and BD-Video anymore than I expect people to know the difference between Blu-ray and HD DVD. I wish that people did but most people don't.

amillians

12-13-06, 07:30 PM

And is for audio only players....No fair, you're cheating...you have the spec! :)

Alex, are you really, really sure about that? ;)Alex is a moron who knows only what he reads in the New York Post.* Are we talking about PDMC? Or do you have cost figures?!? Dish, man, dish! :)

* Sorry, obscure reference to a silly move called Top Secret. I laugh every time I hear it (http://sounds.wavcentral.com/movies/top_secret/moron.mp3) though.

When DVD players first came out at $1000, it was lacking progressive scan output...

So we know that players a year or two from now will cost less and have more features, for both formats. Why you want to single out Blu-Ray for not having certain features or not promising them through upgrades seems to reflect a bias.There's no bias here vis a vis the handling of PiP vs. progressive scan playback of DVD and calling out the BDA proper for a bad call.

Progressive scan output was *not* part of the spec when DVD was released--they couldn't get Macrovision to work correctly at 480p.

That's quite a bit different than having features noted in a spec--indeed, future *mandatory* features--and not supporting them, something which every current Blu-ray player on the market is "guilty" of right now.

The BDA set the stage to create--by design, not accident--legacy Blu-ray players.

Some pass that off as the price to pay for early adoption, but I think it was a really, really bad marketing move, executed only because PiP compliance testing would have delayed players a good 6-9 months. I guarantee you that very few Blu-ray consumers know that PiP compliance becomes mandatory in June 2007, and that their pre-June 2007 players have a zero-to-unknown chance of being updated to support PiP (mind you, CE companies that *know* what they can do have pre-emptively promised firmware updates to fix issues or add features...to date, no CE company has promised PiP upgradability....how odd).

And to further hammer home the point, progressive scan output for DVD was never mandatory at any point of the DVD spec's maturation. Regardless of what side of the format fence you fall, it's pretty hard to spin the "no PiP today, but PiP for everyone tomorrow, if you buy a new deck" support policy as a good thing for consumers.

BenDover

12-13-06, 08:08 PM

where's the news?!?*

*not so obscure reference to an ad campaign run in the mid to late eighties time frame (i think...life was a blur back then ;))

wco81

12-13-06, 08:24 PM

Rio

12-13-06, 08:37 PM

Are we talking about PDMC? Or do you have cost figures?!?For both, no.

BTW, another "publicity" about BD replication came from Sony Music Manufacturing (http://arena.nikkeibp.co.jp/col/20061211/120131/).

Very quick summary:

- PTM mastering process gets rid of 7 out of 12 processes from traditional DVD mastering process, it contributes stabilizing quality and reducing waste
- Sony has sold 7 PTM systems to US, 1 for Europe, 2 for Japan, as of October 2006. 2 systems will be added to Japan
- Replication is utilizing spin-coat methodology
- Cycle time is 5 to 6 seconds, yield ratio is about 80%, output is 12,000 per day/per line
- Shizuoka factory of Sony Music Manufacturing has 3 lines
- "Current our target is to achieve 90% yields, even 95% - same level of current DVD, as soon as possible."

Note: take them with grain of salt :)

mikemorel

12-13-06, 08:56 PM

Cycle time is 5 to 6 seconds, yield ratio is about 80%, output is 12,000 per day/per lineRio - This is the machine translation - do you know if they are talking about BD-25 or BD-50s here?

The device, the injection molding, cooling and reflected membrane, cover layer, is formed with five blocks of the inspection removal. In the machine which presses 2 layers 50GB, 2nd layer production unit is added in this, several same process as 1st layer is piled up.

As for productivity of present condition of here Shizuoka factory, time differs somewhat at monolayer /2 layer, but per 1 at 5~6 second, as for yield rate approximately 80% you say. Per 1 units it seems that is the productivity 12,000 in 1 days. At the Shizuoka factory this machine works 3.

smithfarmer

12-13-06, 09:02 PM

As for productivity of present condition of here Shizuoka factory, time differs somewhat at monolayer /2 layer, but per 1 at 5~6 second, as for yield rate approximately 80% you say. Per 1 units it seems that is the productivity 12,000 in 1 daysSingle layer.

mikemorel

12-13-06, 09:12 PM

Single layer.To be more succinct, are we talking about pasting two single layer 1/2 thickness discs, back to back, each with a 5-6 second cycle time and 80% yield?

And what does "At the Shizuoka factory this machine works 3" mean? They have 3 "pairs" of machines (or 3 "lines") to create BD-50?

smithfarmer

12-13-06, 09:40 PM

To be more succinct, are we talking about pasting two single layer 1/2 thickness discs, back to back, each with a 5-6 second cycle time and 80% yield?

And what does "At the Shizuoka factory this machine works 3" mean? They have 3 "pairs" of machines (or 3 "lines") to create BD-50?
Like Rio said, take it with a grain of salt. The times given are for single layer discs and the "3" refers to the fact they are a 24 hour a day operation - 3 shifts per day at 8 hours per shift.

Rio

12-13-06, 09:53 PM

According to the original article, it says "time varies little bit depending on SL or DL,
the cycle time is 5 to 6 seconds for each disc, yields is about 80%.", so I thought the cycle time also includes DL case (6 seconds?). No obvious mentioning is there to clarify whether all 3 lines are DL capable or not.

Rio

12-13-06, 09:55 PM

The times given are for single layer discs and the "3" refers to the fact they are a 24 hour a day operation - 3 shifts per day at 8 hours per shift.Your interpretation is wrong. "3" means "3 lines", not "3 shifts".

scaesare

12-13-06, 11:02 PM

No offense but are you going to go out and tell people the differences between Blu-ray and HD DVD? After all if you really want people to know everything about their players shouldn't they also know what the specs of each format are as well?

No offense taken, but are you going to go out and tell people about the merits of the Dodge Stratus??

:confused:

You think maybe it might be in the best intrests of the vendors to do that?

No offense but unless a feature was advertised by the manufacturer you can't blame them for somebody's personal expectation. For instance I remember arguing with someone who once told me that the HD-A1 could decode DTS-HD audio. Should Toshiba have been criticized for not supporting DTS-HD simply because someone thought that they did?

Again... if you are trying to be offensive, you'll have to work much harder... none taken.

I actually would have no problem with more significant disclaimers about what audio the Toshiba decks don't support.

Nonsense, and I never indicated that I expected people to know the difference between BD-Live and BD-Video anymore than I expect people to know the difference between Blu-ray and HD DVD. I wish that people did but most people don't.

If you say so Richard... if you say so:

Which is why if you care about extras on Blu-ray it is best to buy a BD-Live player.

scaesare

12-13-06, 11:09 PM

Actually, I wasn't responding to you Alex so much as scaesare.

Yes it's a valid point that consumers don't know that PIP is coming, even though it's in the spec.

But I don't think that's operating outside the parameters of the market where more refined features come months or even years later. IOW, most people buying first gen players reasonably expect that later gen players will have more features at a lower price.

I really doubt a lot of people consider not having PIP a dealbreaker.

Um.. how can "people consider not having PIP a dealbreaker", if "consumers don't know that PIP is coming"?

And if you read Alex's post, he isn't arguing against "refinement", he's arguing against foisting a handicapped player upon an unsuspecting public:

That's quite a bit different than having features noted in a spec--indeed, future *mandatory* features--and not supporting them, something which every current Blu-ray player on the market is "guilty" of right now.

The BDA set the stage to create--by design, not accident--legacy Blu-ray players.

wco81

12-13-06, 11:15 PM

AnthonyP

12-13-06, 11:18 PM

i'm not sure this would be the case for hd dvd since they don't have different specifications kicking in at later dates (ie, profiles)...all the hd dvd hardware has to fully meet the minimums of the standard i would imagine.

Ben do you know if your Toshiba supports MC?

crussader

12-13-06, 11:19 PM

Conditioned or not, I bet there will be quite a few people next year that go to the store, see PiP on a title, take it home, and get ticked off when they discover that it doesn't work on their $1000 player.

b2bonez

12-13-06, 11:49 PM

Real News as posted here...

http://biz.gamedaily.com/industry/feature/?id=14737

The Xbox 360 has sold 3.4 million units in the U.S., and the newly launched Wii and PS3 come in at 476K and 197K, respectively. Along with the Wii console, 270K Wii remotes and 153K nunchuks were also sold.

Interestingly, from a next-gen DVD standpoint the Xbox 360 HD DVD peripheral sold 42K units. So technically, within the gaming universe the PS3/Blu-ray install base is nearly five times greater.

And a little quick math gives an 1.23% attach rate for the HD-DVD addon...

b2b

kjack

12-13-06, 11:54 PM

Think outside the box.

scaesare

12-13-06, 11:57 PM

If you ask people interested in HD whether they'd rather buy players now or wait for players with a feature like PIP, it's doubtful PIP alone will make people not buy now.

Conversely, people who spend a lot now won't necessarily be upset if a year later players have PIP, because we've become conditioned to expect that newer hardware will offer new features and a better price/value proposition.

Then why not inform people so THEY can decide that for their own $1000 investment?

If it won't be a problem why not inform people?

Here's an interesting little experiment:

Go to www.bluraydisc.com (http://www.bluraydisc.com) and do some searching:

"BD-Video" = 0 hits

"BD-Live" = 0 hits

"PiP"= 0 hits

"Picture in picture" = 0 hits

"Profile" = 4 hits... aha!

-Hit #1 discusses support for AVC High-Profile

-Hit #4 Has to do with BluRay software product supporting BR, and one of them has to do with data backup "profiles"

-Hits #2 & #3 lead to the same document under :"Home -> Technical -> Blu-ray Disc for Movie Distribution"

Absolutley no discussion about limited profile support in players. Actually no discussion about profiles AT ALL. Here are some interesting quotes however:

"The Video Distribution format was widely expanded to offer content producers a full range of additional features unavailable in the home recording format."

"'BD-J' mode
Offers unparalleled flexibility and features, because it is based on the Java runtime environment. It allows for extensive interactive applications, and offers Internet connectivity."

"Every Blu-ray Disc player will be equipped with a Java interpreter, so that it is capable of running discs authored in BD-J mode"

"Internet connection
The BD-J system supports basic Internet protocols like TCP/IP and HTTP. The player may connect to the disc publisher's web site to unlock certain content on the disc (after certain conditions, like payment, are met), or dynamically display certain info (like theater playing schedules for a movie) on the screen. The disc's program may be extended with JPEG pictures or audio fragments downloaded from the Internet, or it can even stream full new audio/visual content to Local Storage."

"Conclusion
The Blu-ray Disc format for Movie Distribution offers two flexible profiles for the creation of titles. It was designed to allow for the streamlined development of Blu-ray Disc (HD) and DVD-Video (SD) titles at the same time, if needed. Basic menus and navigation can be identical. However, it also offers many new functions that will benefit both the author (by offering flexible ways of creating disc content), as well as end users (by offering exciting new functionality compared to DVD-Video). "

(Incidentally, the profiles mentioned in that last paragraph are disc profiled earlier defined as HDMV mode and BD-J mode...not the player profiles under discussion here)

I also read the FAQ - no mention there

There are also 8 technical PDF's - no mention there

So I figured if the BDA had zero mentions on their site, then the player manufactuers must at least let people know...

Sony's web page has this to say if you click a small footnote link:

"As with other optical media devices, circumstances may limit compatibility or prevent Blu-ray disc playback."

It also says this under specs:

"Plays discs with following formats BD-ROM, DVD-ROM, DVD +R/RW, DVD –R/RW, AVC-HD, and MP3/JPEG from DVD formats. Planned firmware upgrade in 2007 will allow for compatibility with most BD R/RE discs."

Downloading and searching their entire user manual reveals no mention of "BD-Video"or "BD-Live". The only mention of "Profile" is that the player is "BD-ROM Profile 1 compatible", which is the physical disc spec.

Shall I keep going?

-Nothing on Panasonic's DMP-100 pages

-Nothing on Pioneer's BDP-HD1 pages

-Samsung's BD-P1000 page says "BD-JAVA"

-Philips' BDP9000 says "Java for interactivity and graphical enhancements"

- Just about all of the above mention compatability with "BD-ROM" discs

So... I ask you... and Richard... how is somebody who even TRIES to educate them self about this supposed to know they are buying a $1000 legacy player?

2Channel

12-13-06, 11:59 PM

Real News as posted here...

http://biz.gamedaily.com/industry/feature/?id=14737

And a little quick math gives an 1.23% attach rate for the HD-DVD addon...

b2b

So a very generous 10% BD attach rate for the PS3 would put us at 19,700 movie users. ;)

2Channel

12-14-06, 12:08 AM

Something I've speculated about in previous posts. Delay of the EU PS3 launch. This does not bode well for US supply of PS3s for some time.

http://biz.gamedaily.com/industry/feature/?id=14731

In fact, a new report in U.K. gaming website Computer and Video Games suggests that the PS3 may not see a release in Europe until September. "High placed sources within the industry have already been tipping April as a more realistic launch window for the console. But a source has told CVG that a PS3 delay as far back as September 2007 is now far more likely, pointing the finger of delay at - yes you guessed it – 'component shortages'.

b2bonez

12-14-06, 12:11 AM

So a very generous 10% BD attach rate for the PS3 would put us at 19,700 movie users. ;)

42,000 King Kong.. 197,000 Talladega Nights... That's real data, anything else is just opinion...

b2b

lymzy

12-14-06, 12:27 AM

Think outside the box.

Care to elaborate?

Richard Paul

12-14-06, 12:43 AM

No offense taken, but are you going to go out and tell people about the merits of the Dodge Stratus??

:confused:Come on you know what I am getting at and that is the fact that most of the people who want to spread the word about the differences between BD-Live and BD-Video aren't really that interested in informing consumers about the two HD formats. Instead they are far more interested in attacking Blu-ray.

You think maybe it might be in the best intrests of the vendors to do that?I thought you wanted to inform consumers about their HD players and wouldn't the differences between Blu-ray and HD DVD be part of that?

And if you read Alex's post, he isn't arguing against "refinement", he's arguing against foisting a handicapped player upon an unsuspecting public:If you consider BD-Video handicapped because it isn't as good as BD-Live would HD DVD be handicapped compared to BD-Live as well? After all BD-Live does have higher requirements for PiP decoding and persistent storage than what HD DVD requires.

So... I ask you... and Richard... how is somebody who even TRIES to educate them self about this supposed to know they are buying a $1000 legacy player?Blu-ray can play discs with both larger capacities and larger bandwidth than HD DVD so if BD-Video players are legacy equipment they are still equipment that is better than the competition in certain areas. Or is the consumer education you are hoping for supposed to leave little facts like that out?

crussader

12-14-06, 02:19 AM

After all BD-Live does have higher requirements for PiP decoding and persistent storage than what HD DVD requires.

HD can do PiP now. BD is apparently facing a challenging implementation to get this out in the future. So much for what higher requirements gets you.

Blu-ray can play discs with both larger capacities and larger bandwidth than HD DVD...

So what??? Nobody has yet been able to demonstrate where this has made any difference at all in the real world. I guess it takes this to make BD look "as good" as HD.

What'sHD

12-14-06, 03:01 AM

So what??? Nobody has yet been able to demonstrate where this has made any difference at all in the real world. I guess it takes this to make BD look "as good" as HD.
It comes back to studios doing separate encodes for BD rather than reusing HD30 encodes. When that happens with an eye to using BD's full bitrate, you WILL see a difference between BD and HD for the same title.

P.S. Since you want to see real-world difference, do put your vote behind what you just said and take the poll below in my sig. thanks

Richard Paul

12-14-06, 03:09 AM

HD can do PiP now. BD is apparently facing a challenging implementation to get this out in the future. So much for what higher requirements gets you.Well when you require PiP decoding at higher bit rates and resolutions it is somewhat harder to do. Obviously though you don't care about small details such as that.

So what??? Nobody has yet been able to demonstrate where this has made any difference at all in the real world. I guess it takes this to make BD look "as good" as HD.Besides some obvious Blu-ray hatred are you saying that you know for sure that the advantages that Blu-ray has will not make any real world difference? Care to explain how you "know" that?

Grubert

12-14-06, 05:20 AM

Taiwan makers: Blu-ray HD DVD stalemate may boost dual-format devices (http://www.digitimes.com/systems/a20061214PD201.html)

Kosty

12-14-06, 05:35 AM

Real News as posted here...

http://biz.gamedaily.com/industry/feature/?id=14737

And a little quick math gives an 1.23% attach rate for the HD-DVD addon...

b2b1.2% "attach" rate. :p No silly. That number is more the short term "conversion rate". Although attach rate could be applied here, that term is more appropriate to be used for a longer period.

In a one or two week context, it more a 1.2% conversion rate for that period. That's in a two week period 1.2% of Xbox 360 owners were converted into buyers of the add on bundle. That conversion rate would apply for a certain period that would insure that all of the eligible target market would be educated about the option and would have it available for purchase and would have a suitable decision period to decide to buy.

Attach rates are usually benchmarked for initial purchases of the primary item, with in 30 days, quarterly, yearly and through the lifetime of the item.

Although, this shows a 1.2 % conversion rate, that rate of purchase for XBox 360 owners would probably stay steady for at least 4 weeks and probably last for months at a similar rate.

Its probably very good news for HD DVD as it implies at least a 10% overall eventual attach rate for the HD DVD player bundle for the base Xbox 360.

Now if the HD DVD disc purchase attach rate for Xbox owners is as high as it was for the first generation HD DVD players, then HD DVD is in pretty good shape.

That IMNSHO would also imply around 5-15% of PS3 owners will use the PS3 as a dedicated player

Kosty

12-14-06, 05:44 AM

Some actual positive Blu-ray news.

For the first time at www.dvdwars.com with the Amazon sales tracking Blu-ray exceeded HD DVD on a sales graph. Blu-ray passed HD DVD in "Number of Titles in the top 10000' graph (80 to 73). Thats on of the two most significant graphs. It still is below in the "number in top 1000" and "number in top 100' graphs but it does show some positive impact on Blu-ray disc purchases from the Blu-ray launch. That is good new for Blu-ray.

How that will trend with the launch of the Xbox 360 HD DVD movie player bundle and the launch of the 2nd generation HD DVD players is yet to be seem.

dvdwars.com recently added a bunch of the new Blu-ray movies to its tracking and revised its chart display format.

Grubert

12-14-06, 06:16 AM

Pirates of the Caribbean (two movies) to launch in 2007 - probably May, to coincide with the third instalment:

http://www.zonadvd.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=7622

WiFi-Spy

12-14-06, 06:27 AM

Check here for some relevant statistics:

http://www.alexa.com/data/details/traffic_details?url=www.avsforum.com

What's interesting is that the traffic is a lot more than people probably realize.

Too bad alexa only counts users of IE on windows, and since most geeks use firefox/opera/safari I have a feeling its a lot more.....

mikemorel

12-14-06, 06:54 AM

Taiwan makers: Blu-ray HD DVD stalemate may boost dual-format devices (http://www.digitimes.com/systems/a20061214PD201.html)
Consequently, Samsung Electronics has planned to offer dual-format recorders that can record and play back BD and HD DVD movies, the sources pointed out. Hitachi-LG Data Storage (HLDS), a member of the Blu-ray Disc Association, is considering production of dual-format devices, the sources indicated, noting that a dual-format device would be more expensive than a single-format device. Ahh, they are naming names...and Samsung is planning dual format for the third time, which I hear is a charm. Apparently they finally figured out that there is no money in chasing the PS3 for playback only BD players. I could have saved them some time and money in December of last year...

Will this "rumor" get squashed yet again?

mikemorel

12-14-06, 07:22 AM

Real News as posted here...

http://biz.gamedaily.com/industry/feature/?id=14737

And a little quick math gives an 1.23% attach rate for the HD-DVD addon...

b2bIt's a little silly to ascribe attach rates to something with only two weeks on the market, no?

Given that there was a minor detail not mentioned, like "THE PS3 LAUNCH" with thousands waiting in line for a quick payday, it is not surprising that in two weeks, the PS3 has sold more units.

December's units sold numbers will prove more interesting, as the add-on holiday sales kick in. After all $200 is in the wheelhouse for Christmas presents. I'm not saying the add-on will match PS3, but it will hold it's own.

And in Spring, when the XBox 360 gets a price break (and/or something else?), will make the equation even more interesting. Patience, b2b... Two weeks does not a format war make.

By the way, have you taken a look at a certain on-line auction site, which has had many PS3s sold at cost or at a loss recently?

What'sHD

12-14-06, 07:54 AM

mikemorel

12-14-06, 08:14 AM

[http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/12/14/AR2006121400273.html]Sony keeps PS3, margin targets despite headwind[/URL]

"It is true that it took us some time to bring the PS3 to mass production as blue laser availability worked as a bottleneck," Sony President Ryoji Chubachi told a media round table.

"But 2 million and 6 million are within our reach," Chubachi said, referring to Sony's targets to ship 2 million units of the PS3 by the end of the year and 6 million by March.Now what possible good could come from Chubachi saying this? If he is right, then they've done what they said they would do. If he's wrong it only feeds the fact that Sony is not telling the truth. And as we know, 2 million out the back door of the factory does not equal 2 million in the NPD charts.

If Sharp is selling all their diodes to Sony, that would add 150,000 per month. So did Sony have an epiphany in blue laser diode manufacturing?

BenDover

12-14-06, 08:49 AM

Ben do you know if your Toshiba supports MC?

anthony, are you saying that mc is currently arequirement of the hd dvd standard? is it a part of the bd standard? i ask b/c i don't know and have no way of knowing as the standards aren't public.

last i read on the topic mc has not been nailed down by those in charge, that is the studios.

Issac Hunt

12-14-06, 09:07 AM

Think outside the box.
PCs?

Michael Mullis

12-14-06, 09:07 AM

42,000 King Kong.. 197,000 Talladega Nights... That's real data, anything else is just opinion...

Not to inject fact into this statement or anything........but considering Talladega Nights was a pack-in, that doesn't equal 197,000 copies of the movie sold no more than you can say Universal sold 42,000 copies of King Kong.

"But 2 million and 6 million are within our reach," Chubachi said, referring to Sony's targets to ship 2 million units of the PS3 by the end of the year and 6 million by March.

Man, someone at Sony needs to sit everyone down and make sure their numbers match. Weren't those projections 1 million by the end of the year just a week ago? 1 million is an impossible goal. 2 million just makes me laugh and beer come out of my nose.

mikemorel

12-14-06, 09:13 AM

2 million just makes me laugh and beer come out of my nose.It's 9:13AM Baltimore time. :D

los seres

12-14-06, 10:17 AM

dialog_gvf

12-14-06, 10:40 AM

Something I've speculated about in previous posts. Delay of the EU PS3 launch. This does not bode well for US supply of PS3s for some time.

I would have thought just the opposite. If units aren't being redirected to Europe, where are they going?

Gary

Grubert

12-14-06, 10:43 AM

March:

http://img281.imageshack.us/img281/3541/flyerzb4gk8.jpg

scaesare

12-14-06, 10:56 AM

Come on you know what I am getting at and that is the fact that most of the people who want to spread the word about the differences between BD-Live and BD-Video aren't really that interested in informing consumers about the two HD formats. Instead they are far more interested in attacking Blu-ray.

I thought you wanted to inform consumers about their HD players and wouldn't the differences between Blu-ray and HD DVD be part of that?

If you consider BD-Video handicapped because it isn't as good as BD-Live would HD DVD be handicapped compared to BD-Live as well? After all BD-Live does have higher requirements for PiP decoding and persistent storage than what HD DVD requires.

Blu-ray can play discs with both larger capacities and larger bandwidth than HD DVD so if BD-Video players are legacy equipment they are still equipment that is better than the competition in certain areas. Or is the consumer education you are hoping for supposed to leave little facts like that out?

I've now spoken to 3 employees of B&M stores selling BR players. None of them have the faintest clue about -Video vs. -Live capability.

Several google searches using combinations of "BD Video" and "BD Live" turns up some comment about the issue, but in many cases it's in the middle of a forum discussion thread. Certainly nothing obvious from the BDA folks. Of course, I'm not sure how a consumer is supposed to know those particular terms to search on, unless he happens to be an AVS'er. Using more generic serach terms to "educate" yourself about BluRay capability turns up nothing that I suspect the average consumer would find useful in being able to make a purchasing decision.

This seems to be a very well-kept secret.

mikemorel

12-14-06, 10:57 AM

An Interview with Amir on HD DVD (rough translation).

Watch Impress (http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.watch.impress.co.jp%2Fav%2Fdocs %2F20061214%2Frt022.htm&langpair=ja%7Cen&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&prev=%2Flanguage_tools)I wonder what this means?

If you mention the Microsoft product regarding HD DVD, for Xbox 360 you can list the HD DVD player first. Is demand how?

[majideimaru]: There is a very big demand and, also echo is very good. The people of the general layer where as for being important, the fact that it has purchased is not, generally known “Early adapter layer” calls the 2nd generation, or follows to that, with it means saying. With the, it means that it is important for the market to keep spreading.

scaesare

12-14-06, 11:00 AM

Ben do you know if your Toshiba supports MC?

As MC is not ratified defined standard yet, how can anybody?

I see your point though, and if/when it becomes one, I'll be disappointed if clear communication about what MC is and what player capability is required isn't provided by all AACS licensees (both BR and HD DVD).

BenDover

12-14-06, 11:08 AM

Official shipping date for Pio BD player:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=768409

BenDover

12-14-06, 11:09 AM

As MC is not ratified defined standard yet, how can anybody?

I see your point though, and if/when it becomes one, I'll be disappointed if clear communication about what MC is and what player capability is required isn't provided by all AACS licensees (both BR and HD DVD).

actually the point trying to be made isn't made if MC isn't in the current HD DVD spec...it is not analogous to the bd profile/phased approach, imo.

b2bonez

12-14-06, 11:12 AM

That IMNSHO would also imply around 5-15% of PS3 owners will use the PS3 as a dedicated player

I still find it puzzling that people don't understand the significance of all PS3s being BD movie players.

What it means is that 100% of all PS3 owners when they are in the video rental shop or walking through a store (Walmart, BestBuy.. etc) can choose to pick up the BluRay movie instead of the DVD or HD-DVD copy, take it home and watch it. Simple.. nothing more, nothing less.

You can prognosticate and calculate all day long to you hearts content, but the reality is that hundreds of thousands (soon to be millions) of PS3 owners are one impulse buy away from being counted as BluRay supporters (whether they know it or not..or you like it or not) ;)

b2b

crussader

12-14-06, 11:23 AM

Well when you require PiP decoding at higher bit rates and resolutions it is somewhat harder to do. Obviously though you don't care about small details such as that.

I think the difference is more likely caused by HDi vs. Java, not bit rates. I'm not sure what difference you're refering to with respect to resolution.

Besides some obvious Blu-ray hatred are you saying that you know for sure that the advantages that Blu-ray has will not make any real world difference? Care to explain how you "know" that?

For a year now we've been constantly told that these advantages are going to make BD superior to HD. All I'm saying is let's see it. If we haven't seen it by now, one has to question whether it will ever be seen.

P.S. - I don't hate BD. I just don't think it's the better solution.

Grubert

12-14-06, 11:25 AM

Sonic Collaborates With Toshiba in Support of European HD DVD Launch (http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/061214/20061214005189.html?.v=1)
Sonic to Distribute Toshiba's HD DVD Emulators and Verifier Technology

smithfarmer

12-14-06, 12:10 PM

I still find it puzzling that people don't understand the significance of all PS3s being BD movie players.

What it means is that 100% of all PS3 owners when they are in the video rental shop or walking through a store (Walmart, BestBuy.. etc) can choose to pick up the BluRay movie instead of the DVD or HD-DVD copy, take it home and watch it. Simple.. nothing more, nothing less.

You can prognosticate and calculate all day long to you hearts content, but the reality is that hundreds of thousands (soon to be millions) of PS3 owners are one impulse buy away from being counted as BluRay supporters (whether they know it or not..or you like it or not) ;)

b2b
The reason why you are puzzled is because you continually fail to realize/ignore that all of these PS3's are not going to be hooked up to HD displays. And for those that have hd displays that aren't large enough for the owner to see a benefit they have more than likely come to the conclusion that BD is no better than standard dvd.

The benefit of BD/HD DVD players are only going to be realized for those who have larger HD displays and are sitting close enough to them. You'll be lucky if 25% of console owners fit into that category. It's the marketing dept. guys that will try to convince J6P otherwise. This "reality" you speak of doesn't exist.

Michael Mullis

12-14-06, 12:28 PM

It's 9:13AM Baltimore time.

Dude, I have to prepare myself anytime I read this forum. Beer is a requirement.

BenDover

12-14-06, 12:40 PM

interesting, i guess sony isn't trying to "starve" toshiba out...

http://www.tgdaily.com/2006/12/14/sony_dvd_burner/

restart

12-14-06, 12:57 PM

Think outside the box.

That is where I was thinking... ;)

b2bonez

12-14-06, 12:58 PM

The reason why you are puzzled is because you continually fail to realize/ignore that all of these PS3's are not going to be hooked up to HD displays. And for those that have hd displays that aren't large enough for the owner to see a benefit they have more than likely come to the conclusion that BD is no better than standard dvd.

The benefit of BD/HD DVD players are only going to be realized for those who have larger HD displays and are sitting close enough to them. You'll be lucky if 25% of console owners fit into that category. It's the marketing dept. guys that will try to convince J6P otherwise. This "reality" you speak of doesn't exist.

I think you missed my point again..
What it means is that 100% of all PS3 owners when they are in the video rental shop or walking through a store (Walmart, BestBuy.. etc) can choose to pick up the BluRay movie instead of the DVD or HD-DVD copy, take it home and watch it. Simple.. nothing more, nothing less.

b2b

BenDover

12-14-06, 01:05 PM

AVC playback on PC; performance:

http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=2886

smithfarmer

12-14-06, 01:15 PM

I think you missed my point again..

b2b

Your point is pointless. :p

This is what you don't understand and it applies to HD DVD as well:
The benefit of BD/HD DVD players are only going to be realized for those who have larger HD displays and are sitting close enough to them. You'll be lucky if 25% of console owners fit into that category. It's the marketing dept. guys that will try to convince J6P otherwise. This "reality" you speak of doesn't exist.

BenDover

12-14-06, 01:18 PM

X-Box 360 Video Marketplace article:

http://console.hardocp.com/article.html?art=MTIzNSwxLCxoY29uc29sZQ==

mikemorel

12-14-06, 01:24 PM

What it means is that 100% of all PS3 owners when they are in the video rental shop or walking through a store (Walmart, BestBuy.. etc) can choose to pick up the BluRay movie instead of the DVD or HD-DVD copy, take it home and watch it. Simple.. nothing more, nothing less.

You can prognosticate and calculate all day long to you hearts content, but the reality is that hundreds of thousands (soon to be millions) of PS3 owners are one impulse buy away from being counted as BluRay supporters (whether they know it or not..or you like it or not) ;)

b2bGeez - if Sony's original estimates were true (2 million at launch, 4 million by end of 2006), you would already be correct! But Chibachi says 6 million by March 31, 2007. Do you agree?

Carnac the Magnificent (I'm dating myself a bit) - please tell us when there will be 4 million PS3s in U.S. consumers hands. That should offer a beach head for BD movie demand. It will be interesting to see if they can sell 4 million at $500-$600.

I think Sony will hit a wall on U.S. shores around March, where they will be stuck in the 200k per month sales mode. There are just not that many people out there that can afford to spend that kind of dough in the dead of winter on a game machine. I would like to hear your estimates here...

b2bonez

12-14-06, 01:25 PM

Your point is pointless. :p

This is what you don't understand and it applies to HD DVD as well:

So you would say this is pointless too ??
What it means is that 100% of all Xbox addon owners when they are in the video rental shop or walking through a store (Walmart, BestBuy.. etc) can choose to pick up the HD-DVD movie instead of the DVD or BluRay copy, take it home and watch it. Simple.. nothing more, nothing less.

b2b

smithfarmer

12-14-06, 01:32 PM

So you would say this is pointless too ??
Yup. The only significant difference is that the add-on will most likely be used on HD displays whereas you can't say that for the PS3.

K.L.

12-14-06, 01:41 PM

TomsHT

12-14-06, 01:43 PM

In other news...

::cough cough:: guess there aint any

2Channel

12-14-06, 01:46 PM

You're too obsessed with the size of a TV. Even J6P can buy a Blu-ray version of a movie if it's just 5$ more expensive than the DVD version if he has a PS3 and doesn't have a HDTV ironically because he doesn't have a clue on how good Blu-ray is over a regular DVD. He buys the Blu-ray version just because it's new, can be played on his new PS3 and is future-proof in case he owns an HDTV in future.

Was there a big sale on rose colored glasses that I missed? ;)

B2b is predicting 100% attach rates for the PS3, and you're predicting that J6P is going to spend an extra $5 for a disc that doesn't look any better on his current TV and won't play in his dvd player or players?

Rio

12-14-06, 01:49 PM

I wonder what this means?
If you mention the Microsoft product regarding HD DVD, for Xbox 360 you can list the HD DVD player first. Is demand how?

[majideimaru]: There is a very big demand and, also echo is very good. The people of the general layer where as for being important, the fact that it has purchased is not, generally known “Early adapter layer” calls the 2nd generation, or follows to that, with it means saying. With the, it means that it is important for the market to keep spreading. Here is my crappy translation:

Amir: "There are very huge demand (for HD DVD add-ons), and great feedback. What important is that those who purchasing are not the so called "early adopters", they are "second generation" people, I mean, general public people. Widening the market (by general public people) is the important factor."Interesting thing is, Amir was refferring to the The DVD Wars (http://www.thedvdwars.com/index.cfm) site in this interview :D

Basically, content of this interview is completely the duplication of internet buzz of here and there, almost zero new information added, with of course, trashing of BD technologies (using the term "Paper spec") and titles, as usual ;)

b2bonez

12-14-06, 01:59 PM

Was there a big sale on rose colored glasses that I missed? ;)

B2b is predicting 100% attach rates for the PS3, and you're predicting that J6P is going to spend an extra $5 for a disc that doesn't look any better on his current TV and won't play in his dvd player or players?

No, again you mis-understand what I said. 100% of all PS3s are capable of BD movie playback just like 100% of Xbox addons are capable of HD-DVD playback. The only difference is that PS3s outnumber Xbox addons 4 to 1..

b2b

K.L.

12-14-06, 02:03 PM

Was there a big sale on rose colored glasses that I missed? ;)

B2b is predicting 100% attach rates for the PS3, and you're predicting that J6P is going to spend an extra $5 for a disc that doesn't look any better on his current TV and won't play in his dvd player or players?You seem to have missed my point completely. I meant J6P doesn't know this point like you do --> doesn't look any better on his current TV
And what about not playable on DVD players? I don't think J6P has many TVs to play it.

Big J

12-14-06, 02:05 PM

No, again you mis-understand what I said. 100% of all PS3s are capable of BD movie playback just like 100% of Xbox addons are capable of HD-DVD playback. The only difference is that PS3s outnumber Xbox addons 4 to 1..

b2b
No, the difference is that 100% of the add-ons were bought to play movies, and you cannot say that about the PS3s.
J

roma_victor

12-14-06, 02:05 PM

I think Sony will hit a wall on U.S. shores around March, where they will be stuck in the 200k per month sales mode. There are just not that many people out there that can afford to spend that kind of dough in the dead of winter on a game machine. I would like to hear your estimates here...

IMO Sony may face a big problem around March 07.
I read a recent estimate that current production costs for the 360 are around $323 compared to $840 for the ps3 (I don't remember which versions the estimates are for).

That's a $500 difference in production costs between the consoles, which means that MS could, if it wishes, quite easily lower the retail price of the 360 by $100 around March 07 (as it is rumored to be planning) just as the PS3 is ramping up production and launching in Europe. Sony would be very hard pressed to respond with a price cut of its own so early in the PS3's lifespan.

Of course the PS3's production costs will decrease as volumes/efficiencies rise, but there's no reason why the 360's costs cannot also further decrease.
In sum, with a $500 delta it seems unlikely that Sony can keep up with MS in a price reduction race.

IMO it's increasing appearing that the inclusion of BD capacity was a case of over-engineering which will hamper PS3 adoption in the general (non-hardcore gamer/AV-phile) population.
Of course, it is a great bargain for those of us (myself included) looking for an alternative to $1000 standalone BD players.

darinp2

12-14-06, 02:27 PM

[http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/12/14/AR2006121400273.html]Sony keeps PS3, margin targets despite headwind[/URL]

"But 2 million and 6 million are within our reach," Chubachi said, referring to Sony's targets to ship 2 million units of the PS3 by the end of the year and 6 million by March.When I saw an article about this yesterday I started thinking about the Enron guy going to jail. 2 million and 6 million in those timeframes just look so unreasonable after what has happened over the last few months that I wonder if an executive using those numbers in the US could get themselves in trouble. The above quote just says, "within our reach", but I thought the article I happened upon yesterday looked a little more definitive though.

--Darin

lymzy

12-14-06, 02:42 PM

almost zero new information added

Amir said they will demo internet applications for HD DVD this CES. Agree on the rest. Nothing new.

dialog_gvf

12-14-06, 02:45 PM

Toshiba opens an HD DVD cafe in Tokyo (http://plusd.itmedia.co.jp/lifestyle/articles/0612/14/news081.html)

Japanese, but some pics.

Gary

Tom McMahon

12-14-06, 03:20 PM

What "subset" of BD-Live features have yet to be added in before the first BD-Live player comes out?

A player is either a plain one (BD-Video) or an online one (BD-Live). A title may offer "online services" available only to "online enabled players".
Don't forget Profile 1.1.

Tom McMahon

12-14-06, 03:51 PM

http://www.hometheaterblog.com/hometheater/2006/12/toshibas_hda2_f.html

Just to parse the significance of those fiirst impressions.

It looks like Toshiba has managed to correct all the major complaints of the first generation HD A1. Startup and load times, cludgy remote and responsiveness to commands.

Slow boot up and load times corrected. Check

Cludgy remote fixed. Check.

Player responsiveness to menus. Check.

If error checking and audio sync issues have also improved, the 1st generation issues seem to have been squashed. :)

Now I just have to hear how the HD XA2 is improved over the HD A2 and the HD XA1.

Their initial review to compare
http://www.hometheaterblog.com/hometheater/2006/04/toshiba_hda1_re.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kludge

wco81

12-14-06, 04:01 PM

So that wouldn't be an endorsement of the A2? ;)

scaesare

12-14-06, 04:24 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kludge

Tom, is this because the A2 contains no Broadcom chips (an NEC instead), or is there some specific architectural facet you'd care to expand on?

Tom McMahon

12-14-06, 04:27 PM

While I don't disagree with you, I don't think it's a big issue, since 25/50 support will come with a later firmware. For the beginning I think by far the most interesting content is movies and they're almost exclusively shot in 24p. So my position is that (although I'm affected here in Germany) it doesn't really bother me at all. I'm interested in HD-DVD because of movies, mostly Hollywood stuff. Don't really care much about native 25/50 content right now.

Actually, I *like* that 25/50 is not supported right now! Why? :confused: Because this forces all studios to get rid of the PAL speedup. Once NOT doing PAL speedup for HD-DVD is common practice, 25/50 may be added without the danger that PAL speedup comes back.

I am expressing my naievete here: Isn't it the case that all new displays handle all current vertical refresh rates? So might this only be a problem for older PAL displays?

Richard Paul

12-14-06, 06:24 PM

And in Spring, when the XBox 360 gets a price break (and/or something else?), will make the equation even more interesting. Patience, b2b... Two weeks does not a format war make.Strange, are you actually recommending that we wait and see how the HD DVD add on sales over the next few months before deciding on it? I only wish you would feel the same way about the PS3.

This seems to be a very well-kept secret.Well besides the fact that you didn't even try to answer the questions I asked you just keep repeating how horrible you think the BDA is for making two profiles for players. Also once again if you consider BD-Video handicapped because it isn't as good as BD-Live would HD DVD be handicapped compared to BD-Live as well?

I think the difference is more likely caused by HDi vs. Java, not bit rates. I'm not sure what difference you're refering to with respect to resolution.To clarify this but the maximum PiP bit rate for Blu-ray is higher than what it is for HD DVD. In fact I have heard that Blu-ray PiP is capable of HD resolutions and have noticed that Amir has even attacked HD PiP as unwanted by consumers in several debates, which would indicate that it can be done with Blu-ray.

For a year now we've been constantly told that these advantages are going to make BD superior to HD. All I'm saying is let's see it. If we haven't seen it by now, one has to question whether it will ever be seen.So because you don't believe that the benefits of Blu-ray have been seen yet you don't believe they will ever be seen? So do you also feel the same way about internet extras even though it hasn't been seen yet on HD DVD?

hdkhang

12-14-06, 06:48 PM

Just to throw my 2c into the fire...

RE: MC

As all HD-DVD players are mandated to have ethernet (and internet) capabilities, this would bode well for them to be hooked up to a MC server as opposed to the BD camp where this is optional. As MC/MMC is not even finalised by AACS, we can't know for sure either way, but it is a heck of a lot easier to firmware update a player with an ethernet port than one without.

In any case, players were never mandated to be MC capable, this was known from the start and applies to both sides. If one wanted the capability to do managed copies, they'd need a device capable of it, this might entail a current player connected to a MC storage device.

iPods advertises the ability to buy music to play on your ipod, computer or even burn them onto CD. The device itself does not allow it to do the above without a computer or computer with burner. Do any of the HD-DVD playback devices have MC as a core advertising bullet point? Because we all know that advanced interactivity is advertised as a core advantage of BD. That this is put out there for people to mull on, don't you think they should also educate the people with regards to this highly touted feature/advantage?

Me personally I don't think it's a big deal... in time there will be more exposure. It's like with the iPod example, I don't ever see an asterix or any such disclaimer with regards the capability to purchase digital tracks, yet few people will complain that they were misled into believing that by buying the iPod they could purchase music in a standalone fashion, there is enough information out there. With BD profiles, a disc may be returned on the basis that a touted feature is not functional, the sales folk might have to explain that they don't have capable machines, the customer might then ask how does one know if they have a capable machine, the only answer at present is to say that if they have a PS3 with the appropriate future firmware, or if their player was available after the specified date (mid 2007), otherwise check with the manufacturer of their machine.

Cheers...
Duy-Khang Hoang

Kosty

12-14-06, 06:55 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kludge The HD A1 was admittedly a kludge or overenginered piece with non optimized off the shelf components. But it sold well, a delivered a better picture than its only direct competitor the Samsung Blu-ray player.

The Grumman F6F Hellcat fighter of WWII also was big and bulky but it the job it was designed to do against the Mitsubishi Zero.

Now if you're refereing to the HD A2 instead of the HD A1 please elaborate.

Richard Paul

12-14-06, 07:16 PM

As all HD-DVD players are mandated to have ethernet (and internet) capabilities, this would bode well for them to be hooked up to a MC server as opposed to the BD camp where this is optional.Somewhat, but having an ethernet connection is only one of several things needed for video streaming of an MC to be possible.

Do any of the HD-DVD playback devices have MC as a core advertising bullet point? Because we all know that advanced interactivity is advertised as a core advantage of BD.Sure, but every Blu-ray player does have BD-J capability. What a few people seem to believe is that since BD-Live is better than BD-Video that somehow people are being tricked simply because that fact isn't being advertised. Personally I think that complaint is about as logical as complaining that HD DVD players don't advertise the technical advantages of Blu-ray.

That this is put out there for people to mull on, don't you think they should also educate the people with regards to this highly touted feature/advantage?They will, once they start announcing BD-Live players at CES. It wouldn't make any sense to announce them now anymore than it would be for Toshiba to announce the HD-A3 today.

BenDover

12-14-06, 07:41 PM

The HD A1 was admittedly a kludge or overenginered piece with non optimized off the shelf components. But it sold well, a delivered a better picture than its only direct competitor the Samsung Blu-ray player.

The Grumman F6F Hellcat fighter of WWII also was big and bulky but it the job it was designed to do against the Mitsubishi Zero.

Now if you're refereing to the HD A2 instead of the HD A1 please elaborate.

hey, don't start slinging mud at Grumman ("iron works") planes...things may just have to get physical ;)

mikemorel

12-14-06, 07:45 PM

Strange, are you actually recommending that we wait and see how the HD DVD add on sales over the next few months before deciding on it? I only wish you would feel the same way about the PS3.
Maybe I dig too much on Sony and the PS3, but it goes to the root of what is happening here. MS and Amir say nothing about HD DVD add-on sales. Toshiba says not much about A1/A2 sales. They made no predictions; no extravagent claims about it's success or failure. Theie has been no "we have the studios and CE firms to win this thing". I haven't even seen any advertising for the add-on (yet). It's all word of mouth, AFAIK.

Then there is Sony. They have made every prediction under the sun about PS3 sales, and have revised them numerous times. Normally I'd say who cares, it's marketing; but here, CE firms, studios, replicators, support hardware and software industries, and ultimately, consumers are making decisions based on their numbers. If they are frivolous with them they have to be called out on it.

Richard Paul

12-14-06, 08:01 PM

If they are frivolous with them they have to be called out on it.Well this is what I don't understand. At the same time you feel it needed to call out Sony when they exaggerate there PS3 estimates you never do that with anything related to HD DVD. To take a recent example one frequent HD DVD poster has a signature stating that "What? Bluray players till June-07 already OBSOLETE?!" and yet do you feel any desire to call him out on that? I am just tired of people ignoring stuff like that simply because it helps there preferred format.

BenDover

12-14-06, 08:28 PM

mikemorel

12-14-06, 08:34 PM

Well this is what I don't understand. At the same time you feel it needed to call out Sony when they exaggerate there PS3 estimates you never do that with anything related to HD DVD. To take a recent example one frequent HD DVD poster has a signature stating that "What? Bluray players till June-07 already OBSOLETE?!" and yet do you feel any desire to call him out on that? I am just tired of people ignoring stuff like that simply because it helps there preferred format.That sig I did not see (I really don't pay attention to sigs that much). But I did see a BD poster in the last day (with the initials R. D. - I can link if you'de like) at first pretending to be "on the fence" and then blatantly lying about his allegiance, motives, and ultimately all things BD and HD DVD, all in the space of his first six posts. Luckily some alert individuals caught him early at his game. So it goes both ways.

roma_victor

12-14-06, 08:45 PM

Then there is Sony. They have made every prediction under the sun about PS3 sales, and have revised them numerous times. Normally I'd say who cares, it's marketing; but here, CE firms, studios, replicators, support hardware and software industries, and ultimately, consumers are making decisions based on their numbers. If they are frivolous with them they have to be called out on it.

Excellent point. Several BD supporters here have asserted, even boasted, that despite HD DVD's merits, it stands no chance against the overwhelming BD advertising and publicity.
It's only natural then that some of us would chafe at such advertising/PR when we perceive it to be unrealistic or downright untruthful.

StevenZ

12-14-06, 08:51 PM

Several google searches using combinations of "BD Video" and "BD Live" turns up some comment about the issue, but in many cases it's in the middle of a forum discussion thread. Certainly nothing obvious from the BDA folks.
Google must have been down that day. I googled "BD-Live" (in quotes, with hyphen), and the third result was a link to a BDA FAQ (http://www.blu-raydisc.com/Section-14064/faqs/5/Index.html)
So, yeah, the BDA is hiding this secret deep down on their own obscure site where a google search can find it. Oh, so can typing 'bd live' into the BDA site's search field.

thomopolis

12-14-06, 09:23 PM

Excellent point. Several BD supporters here have asserted, even boasted, that despite HD DVD's merits, it stands no chance against the overwhelming BD advertising and publicity.
It's only natural then that some of us would chafe at such advertising/PR when we perceive it to be unrealistic or downright untruthful.

I don't know about boasting - I've always taken it as more accepting. It's very dificult to register tone in chatrooms - and to be honest the smilies don't help.

HD-DVD may well be the more elegant solution, but getting three studios and multiple CE's to switch over when there is a lot of money riding on their choice just seems rather unlikely. So I would just like BD to perform as best as it can.

thomopolis

12-14-06, 09:32 PM

please tell me you were only kidding and you weren't seriously comparing a poster's sig with statements made by public companies?!?

while statements made by public companies are obviously more serious than sigs posted here (by several orders of magnitude) we are forced to look at the sigs when perusing these boards - or at least those of us who can't turn off speed reading.

Making the same point - over and over and over again here against either side doesn't change the behavior of the target company - it's just annoying to slog through looking for the one post of news every other day.

Sony lied to their investors. If their share holders care they will sue. Sony lied to the video game public - they apparently bought all the first releases anyway. Sony lied to the studios (maybe) and movie buying public (definitely) - this got Toshiba to leave a few million on the table, but it apparently hasn't gotten any studios to drop....yet.

So now the PS3 is shipping. The numbers are going up which is why they are only going for $100-$200 above retail on Ebay and Craigslist. Over the next six months we will see if the attach rate is enough for the studios and if the adoption rate of the Add-on is enough for any to go neutral.

That is the present. Everything else is history, and is not news.

BenDover

12-14-06, 09:47 PM

...

Making the same point - over and over and over again here against either side doesn't change the behavior of the target company - it's just annoying to slog through looking for the one post of news every other day.

...

That is the present. Everything else is history, and is not news.

amen brother!

i've been preaching this over and over and even after the most recent and very serious/stern warning by mark, some have persisted to carry their respective torches.

some of us try and we post news, even when sometimes it isn't arguably totally 'relevant', but at least news nonetheless.

*sigh*

mikemorel

12-14-06, 10:16 PM

some of us try and we post news, even when sometimes it isn't arguably totally 'relevant', but at least news nonetheless.Well there you go then...From Variety about 1 hour ago. Which I'm thinking many film industry types probably read...

Blu-ray leads HD-DVD sales (http://www.variety.com/article/VR1117955798.html?categoryid=1009&cs=1)

In the hi-def DVD format war among gamers, Blu-ray has an early lead getting into homes.

But since every PlayStation 3 comes standard with Blu-ray player, whether buyers want one or not, there's no way to tell whether that lead will translate into DVD sales for studios.

According to industry tracker NPD Group, Sony sold 197,000 PlayStation 3's in the U.S. in November, following the console's Nov. 17 launch.

Microsoft, meanwhile, sold 42,000 units of its new HD-DVD player add-on for the Xbox 360 in the U.S. last month. Because the accessory has nothing to do with gaming, industryites can at least be sure that those 42,000 people want to watch HD-DVD movies.

...A snapshot of the war, Dec. 2006.

BenDover

12-14-06, 10:20 PM

Well there you go then...From Variety about 1 hour ago. Which I'm thinking many film industry types probably read...

Blu-ray leads HD-DVD sales (http://www.variety.com/article/VR1117955798.html?categoryid=1009&cs=1)

thanks mike, you normally DO post news ;)

What'sHD

12-14-06, 10:20 PM

If Sony claims to be able to hit 2M by end Dec, that translates to over 100K consoles sold per day for the next 2 weeks.

Much as I hope this comes true, it seems implausible. Or, did I miss some announcements?

2Channel

12-14-06, 10:47 PM

PS3 sentiment

The PS3 is struggling to reverse negative perceptions of the console. In nearly every aspect, the console scores below the segment average. Discussion of the Cell Processor and graphics may be the key to changing consumer perceptions in the future as it currently represents its strengths. However, the PS3 has yet to convince consumers that the graphics are superior as sentiment scores still trail the Xbox 360 by 0.4 points — no improvement from last week.

http://www.brandintel.com/brandintel.aspx?pageid=industries_gaming_tracker

rdjam

12-14-06, 10:50 PM

To take a recent example one frequent HD DVD poster has a signature stating that "What? Bluray players till June-07 already OBSOLETE?!"
Thank you for the kind invitation to join this little discussion...

The point my sig makes, is that Bluray couldn't get all the stuff HD DVD has in it's HDi spec to work up front - or they didn't know enough about the HDi spec up front.

Either way, they launched with what I would term a "stop gap spec" - just a little something to "tide them over" during the "launch" (I use that term generously), but nowhere near as good as the HDi spec in HD DVD.

Apart from patching up the current Bluray players just to be able to manage the basic BDJ (or "stop gap") spec - these early players have almost zero chance of ever being able to handle BD-LIVE (as in, they are lacking the hardware to decode two video streams at once, connect to a network, etc).

So, they are effectively obsolete before you even get them home.

Will they play a basic Bluray movie? - sure. Will they be compatible with ALL features on future Bluray discs? - not a chance. Yeah - talk about the PS3 all you like in response - it doesn't count in this discussion, no more than a PC would. I am talking about these $1,000 to $1,500 standalone players that will NEVER be able to handle BD-LIVE.

Why are there TWO BD player specs? - as I postulated above, it can only come down to two reasons -

(1) they weren't ready (BDA) to finalise the java specs, because they hadn't got it all sorted out, or hadn't had long enough to copy the HDi functionality they wanted to copy

(2) they kinda knew what they wanted the java to do, but they weren't ready, because they didn't have any hardware designs yet that could put everything they needed together to handle the specs they were thinking of.

HD DVD , on the other hand, was ready! Boy was it ready... You don't see three different versions of the HDi spec floating around, nor promises that by JUNE 2007, they be able to do the REAL stuff, do you?

So that's what I meant - which is pretty much exactly what I put "on the box". The bluray players on sale now, are effectively obsolete.

If you'd like me to repeat it, I shall.

To avoid circular discussions, I will just copy the post number for replies...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9176200&&#post9176200

wco81

12-14-06, 10:53 PM

Bickering and trolling are preferable to "news" such as a "sentiment" survey.

What'sHD

12-14-06, 11:58 PM

http://www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/2006/pulpit_20061208_001308.html

Relevant part quoted:

----------------------------------------
"..good news for Microsoft is that they have won, for now, the game console war. To be fair, though, it isn't just that Microsoft won but that Sony lost. Blu-ray laser diode shortages are constraining PS3 production just at a time when Microsoft has a shot at breaking even on the production cost of its xBox 360s, which are gaining economies of scale. But the most important win here is the hearts of game developers, and those will go to whatever platform has the greatest number of units in the field, which, for high-end game consoles, means Microsoft.

Don't get me wrong, Sony's PS3 is technically superior to Microsoft's xBox 360, but NOT SUPERIOR ENOUGH. Wooing game developers from 12-15 million xBox 360s to instead write games for a couple million PS3s would require those PS3's to be an order of magnitude better as a game platform. Just somewhat better isn't enough, so for this round, at least, Microsoft wins.

And if Microsoft wins, that means HD-DVD wins, too, leaving Blu-ray as the Betamax of HD optical drives. And like Beta, Blu-ray will probably find its (much smaller) niche in professional markets that can take advantage of its eventual greater capacity."
--------------------------------------------

I see an inflated number and one leap of logic, but that's me. YMMV

rdjam

12-15-06, 12:04 AM

Seemed a pretty good application of logic to me... (shrug) he's talking about the future, as I see it.

What'sHD

12-15-06, 12:11 AM

I will leave it to those with the patience of a Job to dissect it in written form, but show that to a 1st year business school student and he can poke at least one large hole in that analysis.

Kosty

12-15-06, 04:09 AM

www. the dvdwars.com has undergone a site makeover. The site is also tracking game system and HDTV sales. They seem to have incorporated feedback of some issue sthat have been discussed here. The search graph has been updated to set HD DVD and Blu-ray as the correct searched terms.

Significant additions including a snapshot and list of every HD title tracked as well as allowing one click of the charts in a 7 day 30 day and all historical data views.

http://www.eproductwars.com/vg/

BTW the Blu-ray sales spike in the "number of titles in top 10000" graph has dropped back down to the Blu-ray norm.

Grubert

12-15-06, 04:28 AM

I'll have a shot at it:

Wooing game developers from 12-15 million xBox 360s to instead write games for a couple million PS3s would require those PS3's to be an order of magnitude better as a game platform.

That's obviously a future and hypothetical scenario, because neither the Xbox 360 has sold 12-15 million units nor the PS3 has sold 2 million. The author doesn't say exactly when will sales reach those thresholds. But, if we are to believe a certain site's stats (8,500,000 Xboxes vs 500,000 PS3s), then the writer is assuming that from now on, the Xbox 360 will move 3.5 - 6.5 million units whereas the PS3 will move only 1.5 million, in the same time period. That's between 2x and 4x. Is that realistic?

Secondly: "And if Microsoft wins, that means HD-DVD wins, too [...]."

That's indeed a leap of logic. A hypothetical victory of the Xbox 360 in the nex-gen console arena does not equate to a victory in the hidef video format arena.

Of course, having more Xboxes out there means having more add-ons, if attach rate stays unchanged. But that is only one factor of many.

BTW, an analyst (yeah, yeah) has said that he expects 900,000 PS3s to sell in the US by year-end.

http://www.next-gen.biz/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=4405&Itemid=2

Grubert

12-15-06, 04:33 AM

First look at the Toshiba HD-E1 on areadvd (http://www.areadvd.de/hardware/2006/Toshiba_HD-E1_11.shtml).

mikemorel

12-15-06, 05:55 AM

First look at the Toshiba HD-E1 on areadvd (http://www.areadvd.de/hardware/2006/Toshiba_HD-E1_11.shtml).Speaking of the HD-E1, it will hit U.K. retail stores days before Christmas. HD-E1 pricing is expected to be revealed on December 18th. HD-XE2 has been pushed back to early 2007.

markrubin

12-15-06, 06:26 AM

bobgpsr

12-15-06, 09:36 AM

New EE Times article:
http://www.eetimes.com/news/latest/showArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=D3DSEHJLXLQFCQSNDLSCKHA?article ID=196604372
Chubachi attributed a string of embarrassing production glitches this year to an accelerating manufacturing environment. "With the shift from analog to digital, the environment of production has changed," he said. "The clock started turning around faster than in the past. That deprived us of time and processes to fully investigate troubles and get feedback."

He noted that Sony is not alone in facing manufacturing challenges. "We have to catch up to the changes as quickly as possible, but in some areas, we have not yet done so," Chubachi acknowledged.

BTW Thanks for the new "Wars" thread Mark. I hope you mods move non-news/fighting posts to the new thread when they continue to be posted here.

Bob

Grubert

12-15-06, 09:44 AM

BTW Thanks for the new "Wars" thread Mark. I hope you mods move non-news/fighting posts to the new thread when they continue to be posted here.

Bob

Totally agree.

anandtech:
HD-DVD Playback - On the Xbox 360 & on NVIDIA GPUs (http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=2890)

scaesare

12-15-06, 10:14 AM

Well besides the fact that you didn't even try to answer the questions I asked you just keep repeating how horrible you think the BDA is for making two profiles for players. Also once again if you consider BD-Video handicapped because it isn't as good as BD-Live would HD DVD be handicapped compared to BD-Live as well?

Richard, you keep bringing other format issues in to this. I'm deliberately NOT trying to make this a format war issue, therefore I'll decline to respond those aspects.

If you want to make a sperate point comparing the interactivity of the two format's, feel free.

To be clear: I don't feel BD-Video is handicapped. I do feel that selling players now, knowing full well that there are plans to author discs that will be not work with all features on these player as they are today, and without clear communication regarding these issues, handicaps the conumers ability to make an informed choice.

scaesare

12-15-06, 10:20 AM

Somewhat, but having an ethernet connection is only one of several things needed for video streaming of an MC to be possible.

Where is it said that the COPY part of MC required video streaming?

Any video streaming comes form the playback device, which is not what you were asking about, nor what hdkang was replying about. Therefore how does your answer of only "Somwhat" regarding ethernet connections on HD DVD players have anythng to so with this?

Grubert

12-15-06, 10:31 AM

Please redirect all debate here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9178015&&#post9178015).

scaesare

12-15-06, 10:45 AM

Google must have been down that day. I googled "BD-Live" (in quotes, with hyphen), and the third result was a link to a BDA FAQ (http://www.blu-raydisc.com/Section-14064/faqs/5/Index.html)
So, yeah, the BDA is hiding this secret deep down on their own obscure site where a google search can find it. Oh, so can typing 'bd live' into the BDA site's search field.

Ah.. cool there is indeed mention of it then. Althought without quotes it's 9th, not third, which is how I was searching. So, do you think this sufficiently clarifies it for the end user?:

Every Blu-ray Disc player can deliver pristine, high-definition picture, theatre quality audio, DVD compatibility and interactive capabilities beyond anything seen with DVD.
Some Blu-ray Disc Players, those with Internet connections can connect to the internet which enables the end user to download additional content to the player’s internal memory, as well as the ability to enjoy unique, “web-enabled” interactive features.

A further question: Are the players that have ethernet connections today BD-Live capable players? Is this an assurance they will be for all manufacturers?

scaesare

12-15-06, 10:52 AM

Well, I just saw Mark's new thread post. If you'd care to move my posts from a bit earlier today that landed "after" your post Mark, I'm cool with that.

BenDover

12-15-06, 11:06 AM

New EE Times article:
http://www.eetimes.com/news/latest/showArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=D3DSEHJLXLQFCQSNDLSCKHA?article ID=196604372

BTW Thanks for the new "Wars" thread Mark. I hope you mods move non-news/fighting posts to the new thread when they continue to be posted here.

Bob

yes mark, thanks...

markrubin

12-15-06, 11:11 AM

tough to move em

But from this point on please limit posts here to NEWS only :)

Grubert

12-15-06, 11:17 AM

Toshiba to Sell EMI, Exits Music Business (http://www.cdrinfo.com/Sections/News/Details.aspx?NewsId=19297)

Funny, I didn't even know Toshiba was in the music business.

The decision reflects Toshiba's strategy to concentrate resources on its core operations, such as computer chips and nuclear power plants.

dialog_gvf

12-15-06, 12:37 PM

Kosty

12-15-06, 12:40 PM

new thread:

Format Battle General Discussion Thead: Discuss it here! (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9178015&&#post9178015)

this thread remains open but is for news only please:

new thread is for general discussions: it stays open as long as everyone remains civil and follows forum rules please :) You are my mod hero. :)

Please be ruthless in this thread to limit the conversation OT to the news being discussed. Witty banter and inuendo can go to the new thread. :D

Kosty

12-15-06, 12:43 PM

Mark,

The need battle thread needs to be made sticky.

mikemorel

12-15-06, 10:00 PM

Wii manufacturing costs ring up to just $158? (http://www.engadget.com/2006/12/15/wii-manufacturing-costs-ring-up-to-just-158/)

http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/www.engadget.com/media/2006/12/12.15.06---wii_cost_comparison.jpg

2Channel

12-16-06, 12:44 AM

Interesting comparison of Xbox Live HD Download vs. HD-DVD

http://www.engadgethd.com/2006/12/15/xbox-live-marketplace-vs-hd-dvd-comparison/

b2bonez

12-16-06, 01:08 AM

More PS3 (and Wii) on the way... ;)
USA Today reports that stores will be promising Wii stock in their Sunday circulars, leading to probable campouts, as more PS3 shipments are also expected; analyst predicts 900,000 PS3s, 1.5 million Wiis sold by year-end.
http://www.next-gen.biz/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=4405&Itemid=2

b2b

Talkstr8t

12-16-06, 03:42 AM

Can you catagorically confirm the PS3 does support PiP for BD titles today?Nope. You'll have to wait until Dec 26th for the release of The Descent.

- Talk

amillians

12-16-06, 02:46 PM

This just in:

-- AACS is optional on HD DVD

-- AACS is mandatory on Blu-ray

-- The pope wears a funny hat

And it only took CED 2 pages to summarize that. :)

lymzy

12-16-06, 02:52 PM

This just in:

-- AACS is optional on HD DVD

-- AACS is mandatory on Blu-ray

-- The pope wears a funny hat

And it only took CED 2 pages to summarize that. :)

I heard HDnet HD DVD titles isn't protected by AACS. Why takes two pages?

g55555sim

12-16-06, 06:31 PM

thomopolis

12-16-06, 10:21 PM

Most people don't expect companies to sell their goods at cost +/-

Kosty

12-17-06, 04:01 AM

IF u r holding anything fragile or is drinking, please stop or put the fragile stuff aside. Ed Burnette from ZDNet has made a 'study' and the result is earth shatteringly shocking:

Blu-ray drives only $1 more than HD-DVD

ROTFLMAO :D :D imagine how BD players owners would feel if this is true .. :D

http://blogs.zdnet.com/Burnette/?p=219 He wasn't actually seriously to say that Blu-ray drives cost only a $1 more to manufacture based on how much the consumer price of a option of a built to order laptop was he?

I mean equal consumer pricing does no have to mean equal cost or profit margin.......

Rio

12-17-06, 04:06 AM

You mean, HP and/or Toshiba are much more greedy? ;)

Kosty

12-17-06, 07:46 AM

You mean, HP and/or Toshiba are much more greedy? ;) In this case HP & Dell was not "greedy" but setting the option price to market conditions. the fact that they could only sell the Blu-ray option at the asme price as the HD DVD option and they made less profit on one or the another, isn't greed, its market conditions. Same as the PS3 subsidy.

If Toshiba was subsidizing its G1 player costs and giving a better dealer for consumers than thats not greed either. Its a legit market decision. If you want to talk about greedy, talk about Blu-ray palyer standalone player costs. ;)

AnthonyP

12-17-06, 10:31 AM

actually the point trying to be made isn't made if MC isn't in the current HD DVD spec...it is not analogous to the bd profile/phased approach, imo.

Ben: why? do the current BD specs require PiP? Like PiP it is a feature that is not required today (and will be optional later) but will be added later that might require you to buy a new player. No one is saying today "You're player might not support MC, disks will come out latter that have that feature and if you want to use it you will need a new player

AnthonyP

12-17-06, 11:18 AM

If Sony claims to be able to hit 2M by end Dec

What'sHD: ship mot sold

even though I am guessing they would sell as fast as they reach the shelves, once shipped they still need to get there

AnthonyP

12-17-06, 11:30 AM

The benefit of BD/HD DVD players are only going to be realized for those who have larger HD displays and are sitting close enough to them. You'll be lucky if 25% of console owners fit into that category. It's the marketing dept. guys that will try to convince J6P otherwise. This "reality" you speak of doesn't exist.

smithfarmer: I disagree. Do you think people went DVD over VHS because of PQ? many bought because it was new, others for convenience (no rewind, chapters...) and others because of extras (more languages, extra clips.....)

Why do you think studios wanted a new menu system? They know it is the extras that sell disks to J6P.

You also missed that PS3 owners are people that are willing to spend a lot on gaming to be on the for front. They also will have a higher percentage of HDTVs

And lastly your analysis also misses that even on SDTVs BD will look a bit better and the novelty effect of a new cooler format. Yes this might fall under “marketing” but if sells the concept and HD disks who cares how you categorize it.

AnthonyP

12-17-06, 11:50 AM

tough to move em

But from this point on please limit posts here to NEWS only

sorry Mark, did not see this until now

2Channel

12-17-06, 11:52 AM

Folks, there's a seperate thread that Mark set up for debate of the news on the format war. Let's use that for debate.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=769114

Kosty

12-17-06, 01:06 PM

For all you Rob Enderle lovers out there.

This weeks article where he states: "...Why did Sony Fail?

Finally, Blu-Ray simply wasn’t ready. If anything killed the PS3, Blu-Ray did. By not being able to build enough drives, they sold one tenth the number of consoles they could have sold during the launch week and given the projected 2M (interesting to note that this projection mysteriously got adjusted down to 1M) they were supposed to produce in 2006 will be at about one tenth potential by year end.

Sony had arguably the best marketing campaign of the three systems this year and, even with the other two problems, would have sold out on the strength of its installed base had they been able to build product. But as mentioned above, this market collapses after the holidays and it is the holiday sales that set the foundation for game sales.
http://news.digitaltrends.com/talkback159_page3.html
http://news.digitaltrends.com/talkback159_page3.html

Discussion continued in the Format Battle thread....
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=769114

smithfarmer

12-17-06, 06:06 PM

smithfarmer: I disagree.
Rather than substantiate my post here or in the new thread (lost context) I sent you a pm.

Rio

12-18-06, 12:25 AM

In this case HP & Dell was not "greedy" but setting the option price to market conditions. the fact that they could only sell the Blu-ray option at the asme price as the HD DVD option and they made less profit on one or the another, isn't greed, its market conditions. Same as the PS3 subsidy.Huh? BD drive has more added value than just a "movie-playback-only" device which is HD DVD-ROM drive. Why Dell has to sell BD drive at the same price of HD DVD-ROM drive? Doesn't make sense at all, does it?

If Toshiba was subsidizing its G1 player costs and giving a better dealer for consumers than thats not greed either. Its a legit market decision. If you want to talk about greedy, talk about Blu-ray palyer standalone player costs. ;)I have heard so much word like "greedy" accusing BD companies. If someone wants to accuse BD companies as "greedy", then HP or its drive vendor Toshiba should also be accused as "greedy". Make sense? ;)

Grubert

12-18-06, 03:29 AM

News only on this thread, pretty f***ing please. ;)

******

areadvd has posted its full review of the Toshiba HD-E1 here (http://www.areadvd.de/hardware/2006/Toshiba_HD-E1_01.shtml)

Pros:
Very good picture quality
Excellent back-compatibility over optical out via DTS 5.1 encoding

Cons:
No 1080p/24 playback
Perceptible fan noise

mikemorel

12-18-06, 06:59 AM

Universal players avert DVD format duel (http://www.eetasia.com/ART_8800446156_480200_4b6379c3200612.HTM)

As leader of the BD camp, Sony Corp. has bet big on that format. Its Playstation 3 is a BD system. And on the content side, Sony's Columbia Pictures is releasing titles on BD. Calling the format debate "emotionally charged," Doherty said he believes Sony is urging CE vendors not to develop the universal player, because "it would give HD DVD credibility."

mikemorel

12-18-06, 07:53 AM

Why Xbox Live Video Marketplace Competes Well Visually With HD-DVD (http://xyhd.tv/2006/12/03/why-xbox-live-video-marketplace-competes-well-with-visually-with-hddvd.aspx)

mikemorel

12-18-06, 10:40 AM

Memory-Tech to roll out Chinese HD DVD discs (http://www.dvd-intelligence.com/main_sections/news_archive/2003_free/1212_memory-tech.htm)

Memory-Tech is increasing its investment in the China-based Shanghai United Optical Disc so that it can begin production of pre-recorded HD DVD discs with an initial annual capacity of about two million discs in 2007.

sknight1

12-18-06, 11:36 AM

Memory-Tech to roll out Chinese HD DVD discs (http://www.dvd-intelligence.com/main_sections/news_archive/2003_free/1212_memory-tech.htm)

If they are going to produce HD DVD discs for the Chinese market, then one can assume they will need players to play them on... any info on that Mike?

Thanks!

Kosty

12-18-06, 11:47 AM

News only on this thread, pretty f***ing please. ;)

******
My I make a suggestion that we allow only the link and quotes from the news item and a initial short summary and/or comment to be posted in this thread and that any discussion be started in the new "format battle thread" by a complete quote of that news post in its entirety, followed by any new discussion comments.

That would leave this thread clean and basically a news summary. If people would be more like reporters in their comments and leave the partisan comments to the battle thread, it might work out.

g55555sim

12-18-06, 12:08 PM

Toshiba launches HD-E1 HD DVD player in the UK

18 December 2006 - 18

18 December marks the first day that an HD DVD player is officially available in the UK, courtesty of Toshiba.

http://www.pocket-lint.co.uk/news/news.phtml/5913/6937/toshiba-launches-hd-e1-player.phtml

AVS discussion http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9204399#post9204399

Grubert

12-18-06, 04:15 PM

http://www.newscientisttech.com/article/dn10817-invention-taser-gets-tougher.html

Anyone know where the individual studios stand on Regional coding?

ted

Good find. For the patent tex: http:// tiny url .com/y5q4r5

(BTW why is tiny-url censored?)

Grubert

12-18-06, 04:59 PM

'Marie Antoinette' Coming to Blu-ray (http://dvd.themanroom.com/dvd-newsview.php?id=415)
Feb. 13

*********

New 'Alexander' Cut Coming to HD-DVD, Blu-ray in 2007 (http://dvd.themanroom.com/dvd-newsview.php?id=414)

Rio

12-18-06, 06:33 PM

Little bit old news about next gen disc sales order share in Japan from AV Watch (http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.watch.impress.co.jp%2Fav%2Fdocs %2F20061215%2Fbdhdvd.htm&langpair=ja%7Cen&hl=ja&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&prev=%2Flanguage_tools)

http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20061215/bdhdvd.gif

Note: This share figure is specific to the Amazon.co.jp through Impress Watch site since last August, and is not representing sales through other sales channels.

chad_cincy

12-18-06, 08:55 PM

Time Magazine calls PS3 a bust.

From Buzz to Bust
(http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1570831,00.html)
"The big story in computer games this year was HOW TO BLOW A HUGE LEAD, by Sony... You know you're in trouble when you get beat by something called a Wii."

2Channel

12-18-06, 11:49 PM

Just a reminder folks, there's a dedicated thread to debate the format war.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=769114

Grubert

12-19-06, 03:43 AM

Hellooooo! News only please!!

Toshiba brings HD-DVD to UK (http://www.infomaticsonline.co.uk/vnunet/news/2171224/toshiba-brings-hd-dvd-uk)

Kosty

12-19-06, 04:52 AM

My I make a suggestion that we allow only the link and quotes from the news item and a initial short summary and/or comment to be posted in this thread and that any discussion be started in the new "format battle thread" by a complete quote of that news post in its entirety, followed by any new discussion comments.

That would leave this thread clean and basically a news summary. If people would be more like reporters in their comments and leave the partisan comments to the battle thread, it might work out. News only in this thread please.

Discuss in the battle thread.

space2001

12-19-06, 07:49 AM

Sharp begins making blue lasers for next-gen DVDs

http://www.cpilive.net/v3/inside.aspx?scr=n&NID=1037&cat=GLOBAL%20NEWS&pub=RESELLER%20WORLD%20MIDDLE%20EAST&k=Sharp,%20blu-ray

Grubert

12-19-06, 08:17 AM

Wicked Pictures, Dimension DVD Produce First Adult HD-DVD

CANOGA PARK, Calif. - Wicked Pictures has become the first adult video company to penetrate [sic] the HD-DVD market with its release of Jonathan Morgan’s slasher-movie spoof, Camp Cuddly Pines Power Tool Massacre. The title is tentatively slated to ship on Friday.

Full press release here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9212761&&#post9212761).

Grubert

12-19-06, 08:42 AM

cdrlabs: Sony BWU-100A Blu-ray Disc writer review (http://www.cdrlabs.com/reviews/index.php?reviewid=295)

John Williams

12-19-06, 10:57 AM

This just in:

-- AACS is optional on HD DVD

-- AACS is mandatory on Blu-ray

-- The pope wears a funny hat

And it only took CED 2 pages to summarize that. :)

Alex,

I think I understand what "optional" means, and I certainly agree about the funny hat. But can you clarify, in a news-worthy fashion, what "mandatory" means in this context?

I.e. would this apply to self-authored BDs or just for replicated ROM titles from studios? I don't ever recall seeing a CSS-free packaged DVD, so this may be sort of a no-brainer for BD (and odd for HD), but I'd like to confirm that.

-John

Rio

12-19-06, 12:42 PM

As far as I understand, AACS is required for BD-ROM disc only, it's not "mandatory" for self-authored BD-R/BD-RE discs. Panasonic player plays BD-R/RE with no problem, PS3 does not play BD-R/RE discs which has BDMV format, but it plays BD-R/RE discs with BDAV format. BD-ROM discs are required to have AACS as well as ROM Mark.

sknight1

12-19-06, 05:47 PM

It appears bad news for Sony is hitting the mainstream media circles.

From BusinessWeek: Sony Screws Up (http://www.businessweek.com/innovate/content/dec2006/id20061219_590177.htm?campaign_id=bier_innc.g3a.rssd1219o)

rdjam

12-19-06, 05:50 PM

This got some coverage earlier when suspicions were raised - but Sony has just admitted it.

Bear in mind trust issues are raised as a reason some won't buy into Bluray.

http://www.itwire.com.au/content/view/8138/53/

"Sony caught faking PSP fan site"

Rio

12-19-06, 05:54 PM

You guys, this thread is "HiDef DVD News VII". This is not for the game cosole battle, is it? :rolleyes:

sknight1

12-19-06, 06:29 PM

You guys, this thread is "HiDef DVD News VII". This is not for the game cosole battle, is it? :rolleyes:

I have no intention of engaging in a debate regarding consoles and their merits. The point of my post was to show the "bad press" following Sony around is no longer being confined to "Fanboy" sites and the ilk. I think when articles start appearing in major press circles such as Time Magazine and BusinessWeek then one should take note.

BenDover

12-19-06, 06:42 PM

You guys, this thread is "HiDef DVD News VII". This is not for the game cosole battle, is it? :rolleyes:

PS3 has been put into play for the bd format and therefore, imo, is covered by hidef news...

Grubert

12-19-06, 06:50 PM

PS3 has been put into play for the bd format and therefore, imo, is covered by hidef news...

And because the PS3 is made by Sony and the PSP is made by Sony, it follows that an allegedly dishonest PSP campaign is fully apropos and has its place in the hidef disc news thread.

Puh-leeze.

mikemorel

12-19-06, 06:52 PM

Dr. Schenk supplies leading European HD DVD replicator (http://oto-online.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=142&Itemid=44)

Quantum Optical Laboratories (QOL) in Vernouillet, France, has extended its QC system with a Dr. Schenk PROmeteus MT-200.blue offline measurement system for HD DVD. Established in 2001, it was the first replicator to start HD DVD production in Europe, and now has nearly half of its lines laid out for the format.

Laurent Villaume, president of QOL, commented: "Our excellent relationship and experience with the Dr. Schenk company for the past five years was the reason for our choice." His replication team, he added, particularly appreciate the high flexibility and easy usage of the PROmeteus system.

mikemorel

12-19-06, 06:53 PM

Speaking out for replicators (http://oto-online.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=35&Itemid=47) Page 22 - Industry voice: Tom O'Reilly

I would admit it is a fair point in the sense that if enough customers tell an AIMMA
member company to provide Blu-ray Disc manufacturing,they will,despite this public support for HD. I doubt it would put the association into spin-control, though. Replicators, by our very nature, make copies of what our customers ask us to.The press release merely makes AIMMA’s opinion known. For better or worse, we do what our customers request, especially if it helps pay the bills.

The bigger picture is that this press release shows that the American replicator has a voice, perhaps for the first time ever.The AIMMA press release states what I have been hearing from replicators individually throughout the year; that HD is a much less expensive format to manufacture,and therefore less expensive and easier to gear up for.

I have heard figures that say purchasing the necessary equipment to manufacture Blu-ray discs – namely, a replication line and mastering system – would be in the neighbourhood of $4 million, while upgrading an existing DVD replication line and mastering system to manufacture HD discs would cost less than $1 million. Who can blame replicators for choosing the side that would cost significantly less for us to ramp up for?

This is a good example of why we need a voice. I have watched and been part of an industry for some 11 years that has made little effort to tell its story to prospective customers, or stand up for itself against related industry trade associations and organisations. I have heard and seen enough that makes me feel the replication industry is hardly on a level playing field when it comes to patent royalties,yet no one in North America has ever spoken up publicly, to my knowledge.