This is a continuation of HiDef DVD News VI - A New Beginning??? (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8505061&&#post8505061)

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Now that both PS3 and 360 add-ons have been released, time for a new thread.

Edit :

Some related review.

Burning Questions: PS3--The Blu-ray Movie Experience (http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,127892-c,dvddrivesmedia/article.html)

The short answer is yes. In my initial hands-on tests, the PS3's Blu-ray Disc playback was very good--even better than I'd anticipated.

regarding the lack of HDMI on XBox add-on. From my POV, it's a non issue. By the time ICT is switched on (approx 2010 or later), you're already buying new players anyway. At that time, qood quality standalone HD-DVD players will cost no more than $200.

It may not be an issue for you but some people do hang on to their players for a long time.


Other than exceptions here and there, I honestly doubt that a player bought in 2006 will still be in operation when it reached 2010.

Four years is a very long time. None of my DVD players (more than a dozen) except for Panasonic DVD-A300 lasted longer than 3 years. None of my 5 LD players (except for Pioneer CLD-604) lasted longer than 3 years too.

No super new news, but the Top 10 Amazon sales rankings for Blu-ray discs have been consistently up over the last 30 days.

The combined HD DVD sales ranking has been consistent as is still much higher than the Blu-ray sales rankings, but the Blu-ray trend has been definately upward.

Too early to see any PS3 impact

3rd chart down
http://www.thedvdwars.com/index.cfm

made a sticky

Thanks nataraj :)

I just returned from Tweeter, the guy told me that they've been selling the Panasonic players as fast as they can get them in. So-so on the Samsung though. He said he hasn't sold an HD DVD player since late summer. Not sure how true this is, but it doesn't matter either way. Either they are selling at the rate at which he says, OR the retailers are pushing BD at the expense of HD DVD.

I just get the sense that BD is going to win this thing based on CE support, Studio support, and retailer support, and I'm not sure how I feel about that. Part of me wants one format, but the other part of me says that the "best product" should win, not the one the industry wants to win.

Sony NEC Optiarc: Blue-ray Disc drive prices to drop 50% by 2008 (http://www.digitimes.com/systems/a20061116PR208.html)

By 2008, prices for Blu-ray Disc (BD) drives will drop 50% from current levels amid aggressive development by various related brands and makers, according to Shuji Minami, general manager, product business group of Sony NEC Optiarc. Minami also said the maker is not ruling out seeking new partners in Taiwan or placing more orders with existing Taiwan-based partners.

Demand for BD drives are expected to be driven by full high-definition (HD) demand for 19-inch-and-above LCD monitors and the new Vista operating system (OS) from Microsoft in 2007, Minami indicated.

In addition, adoption rates for BD technology will be further driven by the Olympic Games in Beijing in 2008, when demand for LCD and PDP (plasma display panel) TVs, along with high-density storage devices, will drive the market, Minami added.Now I know this is supposed to be big news from the BD side, but by 2008, if BD didn't reduce drive costs by AT LEAST 50% then they will be crushed by Chinese made HD DVD drives.

Part of me wants one format, but the other part of me says that the "best product" should win, not the one the industry wants to win.So Which one is which? :) Pardon me, I've been sniffing cleaning products all afternoon, and I can't reason very well...

Since it will be an inevitable win by BD in the eyes of some, I thought it interesting to look back to Churchill and what he said of another war:

"Never give in--never, never, never, never, in nothing great or small, large or petty, never give in except to convictions of honour and good sense. Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy.''

"When I warned them that Britain would fight on alone, whatever they did, their Generals told their Prime Minister and his divided cabinet that in three weeks, England would have her neck wrung like a chicken - Some chicken! Some neck!"

"This is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning."

That war went on another 3-4 years after he said these. BTW, we know it wasn't the "superior" side that won that war. Everyone take a deep breath!

Sony NEC Optiarc: Blue-ray Disc drive prices to drop 50% by 2008 (http://www.digitimes.com/systems/a20061116PR208.html)

Now I know this is supposed to be big news from the BD side, but by 2008, if BD didn't reduce drive costs by AT LEAST 50% then they will be crushed by Chinese made HD DVD drives.

I take the article to be refering to PC drives. Which are burners for BD. This seems to be somewhat on track with Pioneer's comments. The SRP on the Sony is $750 and streets for $540 or less. Drop that in half.

Is there an announced HD DVD burner? I can't see ROM drives being "crush" level.

Gary

Sony NEC Optiarc: Blue-ray Disc drive prices to drop 50% by 2008 (http://www.digitimes.com/systems/a20061116PR208.html)

Now I know this is supposed to be big news from the BD side, but by 2008, if BD didn't reduce drive costs by AT LEAST 50% then they will be crushed by Chinese made HD DVD drives.

Well that assumes the Chinese will have enough "in country technology" to make blue lasers at a cost well below the suppliers of BD drives.

b2b

Since it will be an inevitable win by BD in the eyes of some, I thought it interesting to look back to Churchill and what he said of another war:

"Never give in--never, never, never, never, in nothing great or small, large or petty, never give in except to convictions of honour and good sense. Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy.''

"When I warned them that Britain would fight on alone, whatever they did, their Generals told their Prime Minister and his divided cabinet that in three weeks, England would have her neck wrung like a chicken - Some chicken! Some neck!"

"This is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning."

That war went on another 3-4 years after he said these. BTW, we know it wasn't the "superior" side that won that war. Everyone take a deep breath!

That is probably the best analogy of this format war I've read so far.

Through 11/3/06, the CEA is reporting that digital TVs have outsold analog TVs by a factor of 2:1. Pretty cool. Digital's 5 week moving average in 2006 is up some 430% over the same 5 week moving average in 2005.

SCEA is re-evaluating their numbers...the 400K PS3s noted for launch just this September for the NA debut has now been reinvisioned as only a "goal that we were shooting for" and the year end 1000K target is now also a target they are "shooting for"...this is Hirai talking, not some flacky. It will be a few days before they release actual figures--at this stage, they aren't 100% sure they even sold out on launch day.

The production to date has been 20% $499 and 80% $599. Shipping by boat takes 12-14 days, so they plan to air units to NA for the foreseeable future. They plan to do daily flights/shipments for the foreseeable future. Hirai specifically said they will *not* try to build up inventory, but rather ship daily direct to retail...they don't want retail to go dry.

I take the article to be refering to PC drives. Which are burners for BD. This seems to be somewhat on track with Pioneer's comments. The SRP on the Sony is $750 and streets for $540 or less. Drop that in half.

Is there an announced HD DVD burner? I can't see ROM drives being "crush" level.So it means nothing..."Sony NEC Optiarc: Blue-ray Disc drive prices to drop 50% by 2008" is hereby dumped...

Through 11/3/06, the CEA is reporting that digital TVs have outsold analog TVs by a factor of 2:1. Pretty cool. Digital's 5 week moving average in 2006 is up some 430% over the same 5 week moving average in 2005.

SCEA is re-evaluating their numbers...the 400K PS3s noted for launch just this September for the NA debut has now been reinvisioned as only a "goal that we were shooting for" and the year end 1000K target is now also a target they are "shooting for"...this is Hirai talking, not some flacky. It will be a few days before they release actual figures--at this stage, they aren't 100% sure they even sold out on launch day.

The production to date has been 20% $499 and 80% $599. Shipping by boat takes 12-14 days, so they plan to air units to NA for the foreseeable future. They plan to do daily flights/shipments for the foreseeable future. Hirai specifically said they will *not* try to build up inventory, but rather ship daily direct to retail...they don't want retail to go dry.

I'm not sure you can even buy anything >27" that doesn't have a ATSC digital tuner in it now. My mother's TV quit working and all she watches a couple of game shows and one soap opera, so it was replaced with another 27" SDTV and it had a digital tuner. The shock was that it only cost $224 dollars.. :eek:

b2b

D'oh...good point, b2b. I forgot that pesky regulation!

B2B: maybe in the US, but here you can

B2B: maybe in the US, but here you can

Does Canada even have a date for analog TV shutdown ?

b2b

Well that assumes the Chinese will have enough "in country technology" to make blue lasers at a cost well below the suppliers of BD drives.

b2b


and please feel free to continue to undermine the Chinese's technological advancement :rolleyes:

Too early to see any PS3 impact


Oh ... I was going to say a day after PS3 release BD numbers actually went south :D

Movies in Top 10,000

11/16/2006 : 35
11/17/2006 : 33
11/18/2006 : 24

The trend is unmistakeable. BTW, for HD DVD ...

11/16/2006 : 98
11/17/2006 : 93
11/18/2006 : 95

made a sticky

Thanks nataraj :)

Great. Thanks.

Well that assumes the Chinese will have enough "in country technology" to make blue lasers at a cost well below the suppliers of BD drives.

b2b

Main Land China has all the technology they need to produce almost any advanced CE technology device they want to and they already do so.

Whatever they may not have is easily gotten.

-Robert

and please feel free to continue to undermine the Chinese's technological advancement :rolleyes:

I think b2b's point is that the most difficult component to make in all of these devices is the blue lasers. While there is a lot of work going on in this area, it doesn't seem that anyone has truly cracked the code on making these inexpensively at high volume. From what I've read the current approach is kind of a brute force attack at the problem. Make lots of material and some of it will be usable....throw away the rest.

The Chinese could get into the business of trying to make blue lasers as well, but there would be very heavy capital investment involved and the ramp up time to bring facilities on line would be significant. I think it's more likely that they'd look to source these components from somewhere else, at least until someone has figured out how to do this with better yields.

reposting this one as it came in right at the tail end of the last thread........

Quote:
Originally Posted by sstephen
Blue laser shortfall cools PS3 debut

This isn't really new, we've all known it for some time, but you may want to have a look


http://www.eetimes.com/news/latest/...cleID=194400848


All HD-DVD and Blu-ray products except Sony's currently employ Nichia's laser diodes.

There were some posts previously on this thread saying that Nichia is responsible for 80% of the global blue laser production and that 100% of that was committed to Sony for PS3. This EE Times article seems to contradict that. I’m still not sure how much of the global supply comes from Nichia and how much of that is committed to manufacturers of HD-DVD products. But this is interesting information all the same.

and please feel free to continue to undermine the Chinese's technological advancement :rolleyes:

For pioneers of cutting edge technology, I think it stands true that it isn't a term usually synonymous with Chinese technology. As large scale manufacturers of existing technology, there is no doubt, as long as they have access to it. I think it is an aspect that the Japanese companies still have control over, both technologically and legally.

Main Land China has all the technology they need to produce almost any advanced CE technology device they want to and they already do so.

Whatever they may not have is easily gotten.

-Robert

I'm sure that will be true for blue laser production someday. That was the point of my comment, "someday" is not "today".

b2b

^ someday? sound familiar! A while ago, we said "someday" BD will come out with BD50 movies", "someday, BD PQ will be at par as HD DVD", "someday, the BD players will do BD Live", "someday, BD will sell more players than HD DVD". Come to think of it, the term "someday" is not "bad" at all. :p .. come on now, dont hate me please :)

^ someday? sound familiar! A while ago, we said "someday" BD will come out with BD50 movies", "someday, BD PQ will be at par as HD DVD", "someday, the BD players will do BD Live", "someday, BD will sell more players than HD DVD". Come to think of it, the term "someday" is not "bad" at all. :p .. come on now, dont hate me please :)

There is a difference. When that "someday" arrives for cheap Chinese blue diodes, why should it be exclusive to HD DVD?

Like you said, what is wrong with "someday"? I know, only when a HD DVD supporter talks about BD50.

^ someday? sound familiar! A while ago, we said "someday" BD will come out with BD50 movies", "someday, BD PQ will be at par as HD DVD", "someday, the BD players will do BD Live", "someday, BD will sell more players than HD DVD". Come to think of it, the term "someday" is not "bad" at all. :p .. come on now, dont hate me please :)

BD-50 - Check

BD PQ - Still hit or miss, Talladega Nights got 2 out of 5 for PQ from highdefdigest and this is the PS3 showcase disc. Isn't BD supposed to be better?

BD Live - Which player has BD Live?

More BD players than HD-DVD - Check. Let's see if they get used.

Does Canada even have a date for analog TV shutdown ?
Used to follow this sort of thing. Here's what I find in a letter from the spectrum regulator to the broadcast ("cultural": OMG, stay away from this one) regulator. Looks like a bureaucratic battle between them where the former is looking at the US and says, OK......

"Given the potential for alternative use of spectrum to be freed-up by the transition to DTV, Industry Canada is of the view, from the perspective of efficient and effective management of the radio spectrum, that serious consideration should be given to specifying a date for the shut down of OTA analogue television. Such a date could be closely aligned within a North American market with a view to ensuring that Canadians will be able to receive Canadian OTA DTV within a North American market time frame. This could also contribute to Canadian broadcasters maintaining their viewership, particularly in markets along the Canada/US border where American television stations are rapidly moving to DTV."

http://strategis.ic.gc.ca/epic/internet/insmt-gst.nsf/en/sf08702e.html

If anyone can update, FWIW

Only the studios releasing in both formats use VC-1 on BD (and only on some titles), the VC-1 encoded BD titles tend to score well for PQ. Talladega Nights, like all Sony pictures releases is encoded with Mpeg2. While some titles on Mpeg2 have managed to come close to VC-1, this wasn't one of them. Sony pictures seems to be stubornly sticking with Mpeg2.

Is there a player out there that supports BD Live?

Well here is the complete quote on the PQ.
It doesn't seem like there is anything wrong with the source material, which looks as clean as a whistle. Grain is almost absent from the transfer, with solid blacks and consistent color saturation. I also noticed no chroma noise, compression artifacts or posterization. The film's color palette is quite bright and lively, with sun-drenched exteriors and a fine use of primary colors, in particular blues, reds and yellows. Fleshtones appear accurate, if a bit waxy.

Unfortunately, what 'Talladega Nights' suffers from is really awful contrast. I have no idea why it looks this way (and I didn't see it theatrically), but it is as if the entire image has been completely flattened out and darkened. There is zero "pop" to the presentation -- it's like watching the video through a pair of polarized sunglasses. As a result, depth and detail appear surreal and washed out, and colors are nowhere near as vibrant as they could have been. There is certainly none of the three-dimensionality I'm accustomed to with great high-def. It's hard to describe until you see it, but it is telling that the deleted scenes on this disc, which are also presented in full 1080p and 2.35:1 widescreen, look much better. It is doubly a shame, as Sony is bundling 'Talladega Nights' with the launch of its PlayStation 3 next-gen game console -- I can only hope there is just something wrong with my eyes and I'm the only one who finds 'Talladega Nights' this unwatchable.

No mention of MPEG2 problems, but one of "contrast". Plus the reviewer didn't see the theatrical presentation for comparison. It could be that it was just filmed that way.

b2b

BD PQ - Still hit or miss, Talladega Nights got 2 out of 5 for PQ from highdefdigest...It's garbage posts like this that have dragged these forums down into the toilet. Why didn't you mention that the movie got a 7 out of 10 from Secrets of Home Theater and High Fidelity? Why didn't you mention any of these recent HD-DVD releases that received a 4 out of 10 from at least one review site?

Army of Darkness
Waist Deep
Spartacus

he mentioned Talladega Nights because this is supposed to be the movie used to demo / showcase BD.

Remember way back when you buy HiFi VHS deck and they come with demo video? They were great to showcase what the movie player can do. Not the case with Talladega Nights. Even if it's 7/10, it's not a showcase movie. Sony should bundle eye and ear candy that will easily receive 9/10 to showcase BD playback.

he mentioned Talladega Nights because this is supposed to be the movie used to demo / showcase BD.

Remember way back when you buy HiFi VHS deck and they come with demo video? They were great to showcase what the movie player can do. Not the case with Talladega Nights. Even if it's 7/10, it's not a showcase movie. Sony should bundle eye and ear candy that will easily receive 9/10 to showcase BD playback.

Forget that BD also has other great releases, on MPEG2 even. How convenient.

regarding the lack of HDMI on XBox add-on. From my POV, it's a non issue. By the time ICT is switched on (approx 2010 or later), you're already buying new players anyway.Maybe, but that is based on the idea that ICT won't be used until at least 2010. I certainly wouldn't mind if that is true but at the moment that is just a rumor.


Other than exceptions here and there, I honestly doubt that a player bought in 2006 will still be in operation when it reached 2010.True, especially if the player is an external drive for a game console.


BTW, we know it wasn't the "superior" side that won that war. Everyone take a deep breath!Not to put a damper on this comparison but the combined forces of the US, England, and a dozen plus other countries certainly were stronger than the Axis powers. It just took them a while to build up their armed forces for an all out war. Also I think you are taking the analogy of a format war a bit to literally.


While some titles on Mpeg2 have managed to come close to VC-1, this wasn't one of them.Actually there are several MPEG-2 discs that look better than several VC-1 discs. Just pointing out that there is no need for exaggeration and personally I do think that Sony should switch to an advanced video codec.

It's garbage posts like this that have dragged these forums down into the toilet. Why didn't you mention that the movie got a 7 out of 10 from Secrets of Home Theater and High Fidelity? Why didn't you mention any of these recent HD-DVD releases that received a 4 out of 10 from at least one review site?

Army of Darkness
Waist Deep
Spartacus

Well, this got ugly fast. Let me try and pull this back out of the toilet. ;)

BD is my God I shall have no others (chorus). Is it working? :rolleyes:

David already answered the question "Why Talladega Nights?" But let me hit it home again. This is the disc that 500,000 families will be getting with their PS3. Shouldn't Sony have gotten it right? How was their execution compared to Microsoft bundling King Kong on HD-DVD with the Add-on?

Talladega Nights 2006 2 out of 5 from Highdef 3.5 out of 5 from Secrets

b2b already provided a clip from this one...but here's the full review
http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/talladeganights.html

here's what Secrets of Home Theater and High Fidelity
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_13_4/mrg-140-november-2006-part-4.html#Talladega%20Nights:%20The%20Ballad%20of%20Ricky%20Bob by

This is the third BD-50 release from Columbia, and it reminded me a lot of Click!. The image looks good for the most part, but I couldn't help but feel like something was missing in both dimension and detail.

The image frequently looks a bit flat and veiled. Colors are great and contrast is solid, but the three dimensionality of better high definition transfers is just not there. Since I didn't see this one in the theaters, it is hard to say what is intentional or not, but overall I thought a film like this would look a bit better.

The audio was also a bit of a letdown. Sony's uncompressed audio tracks have been stellar for the most part, and since this film deals with NASCAR, I was expecting some impressive sound design and dynamic range, at least in the racing scenes. While there is plenty of surround usage, dynamic range isn't really that great, and the sound design stays a bit toned down. I guess I should have expected that from a comedy though.


Let's go through your list of HD-DVD stinkers

Army of Darkness 1992 2.5 out of 5
http://hddvd.highdefdigest.com/armyofdarkness.html

Waist Deep 2006 4 out of 5 for PQ
http://hddvd.highdefdigest.com/waistdeep.html

Spartacus 1960 2.5 out of 5 for PQ
http://hddvd.highdefdigest.com/spartacus.html

We could go on like this forever, pitting one reviewer against another, one movie against another. I'll let the folks on this thread judge the titles you chose as examples of bad HD-DVD. I'm sure they can also figure out for themselves if VC-1 is a better codec than Mpeg2 which was standardized in 1994.

The fact remains, Sony continues to act like a company that has nothing to prove. I posted on this thread before the PS3 reviews came out that I hoped that Sony would do better with the PS3. I hoped that the PS3 would deliver great BD PQ and I hoped that Talladega Nights would be a great showcase for BD. The PS3 hardware designers did a good job, but Sony dropped the ball again with the bundled movie. They continue to behave like a company that does not show interest in competing for my business. My hope, therefore, is that HD-DVD continues to cause Sony pain so that they change their behavior and work harder to deliver better products to the paying customer.

What I don't get is all the folks who continue to make excuses for Sony.

What I don't get is all the folks who continue to make excuses for Sony.Well you certainly shouldn't be surprised by that when you make exaggerations like saying that no MPEG-2 disc has yet to equal a VC-1 disc. Statements like that just weaken your more legitimate arguments. To show that I know that Sony has made mistakes and that I am fair about this I will make a short list of them:


Using MPEG-2 for all their Blu-ray movies was not a good idea and many of their early movies suffered from over compression because of that. Overall there is little reason for them to stick with MPEG-2 and even when their movies aren't negatively affected by using it they will get bashed because they continue to use it.
They should have released a subsidized stand alone Blu-ray player. Once Sony knew that Toshiba was going to do that they should have done that as well since it would help disprove the myth that Blu-ray players cost twice as much to make as HD DVD players. A myth that continues to be believed even today.
They should not have overestimated the number of PS3 consoles they would be able to make this year. It gave their opponents an opportunity to attack them and made them look bad.
They should have included an IR receiver on the PS3 and released a remote for it on day one. Honestly releasing a Bluetooth remote a month after the PS3 makes it look like Sony forgot one of the uses that they were hoping for from PS3 owners. That being the playback of Blu-ray movies.
Sony should have released a knock out movie or two this winter since a surprise announcement of Spiderman would have gotten a lot of publicity. Instead it was Fox who got closest to doing that with X-Men 3.

I'm sure someone will do their own thread on it, but I wanted to post this while it's still relatively fresh in my mind.

We just did a demo here in So Cal (thanks Thomas!) with both the Panny BD and Tosh HD-A1 though the Qualia 004 front projector on a 133 inch screen. Whole system just recently calibrated. IIRC, there's a Pioneer Elite in his awesome home theater.

Primary titles for comparison were MI:3, Aeon Flux, and Corpse Bride. We also did Black Hawk Down for BD and SD Gladiator on both to compare upconversion.

IMO, MI3 and Aeon Flux were indistinguishable and the Panny BD got the slight edge on Corpse Bride with slightly better color saturation and "pop." We went back and forth through the same scenes on each (notably the bridge scene, roof jump, and Vatican intro for MI3), though the HD-A1 had the annoying habit of having to start from the beginning due to it losing the HDMI handshake while the BD would pick up where it left off.

It was also a wash on upconversion for the Panny (primary comparison with the DVD of Gladiator), with it's superior speed and response giving it the convenience nod.

Myself, I can't wait for the PS3 to give my XBR1 a taste of Blu-ray. As soon as I can get a PS3 without waiting in line or paying ebay rapage, I'll get one (most likely early next year, I'm thinking). I've been tossing back and forth near daily on getting an XA1. I don't like the ergonomics of the the separate HD-DVD dongle but already have the 360... My unused analog inputs on my receiver are begging for the XA1, though. This demo today makes me all the more sure I could tolerate the quirks of the XA1... for the right price. The HD-DVD add-on also looks quite attractive, though I'm willing to pay the premium for 5.1 True HD....

This is the disc that 500,000 families will be getting with their PS3. Shouldn't Sony have gotten it right? How was their execution compared to Microsoft bundling King Kong on HD-DVD with the Add-on?
Horrible. Unbelievable. Of course, we might be a bit more picky than J6P, I don't know. Wasn't it IGN that gave the bundled movie a pretty good score, something like "opened my eyes for HD content"? (Can't find the link now..) That nonwithstanding, the choice of a) which movie and b) how the encoding was done is a mystery to me. Espescially since they KNOW what is going on over in the HD DVD camp.

The fact remains, Sony continues to act like a company that has nothing to prove. I posted on this thread before the PS3 reviews came out that I hoped that Sony would do better with the PS3. I hoped that the PS3 would deliver great BD PQ and I hoped that Talladega Nights would be a great showcase for BD. The PS3 hardware designers did a good job, but Sony dropped the ball again with the bundled movie. They continue to behave like a company that does not show interest in competing for my business. My hope, therefore, is that HD-DVD continues to cause Sony pain so that they change their behavior and work harder to deliver better products to the paying customer.
Agreed. They seem to assume too much, to a point where it might come back and seriously bite them. Their window of opportunity for winning people over to their side is rapidly closing, and Sony seem to actively trying to close that window themselves! Hello? Luckily there are more studios than Sony and recent releases from them seem to indicate that we're finally on the right track.

I fully expect some Blu-ray exclusive studios to also join the HD DVD camp in the fairly short term, just by looking at the sales numbers. The only thing left for them is looking at what attach rates we'll see on the PS3. If low, HD DVD releases are coming. (Not Sony owned or Fox.)

What I don't get is all the folks who continue to make excuses for Sony.
I am and avid PS supporter, got the PS1, PS2, PSP and waiting to get the PS3, and I think Blu-ray is the better HD "solution". I'm not making excuses for Sony, in fact, I am continually amazed how they time after time are able to mess things up. But I can't make my decision on which side to support on the execution of the launch or the attitude of one of the BD studios. I have to look at the technical solution, its long term viabiliity, overall studio support and last, but not least, which HD format the PS3 supports, since I'll be getting that anyways...

What I don't get is all the folks who continue to make excuses for Sony.

Why, there isn't a need to. Blu-ray had already surpassed HD DVD in the most fundamental way (in capacity and bandwidth) in its conception, not to mention the subsequent major industry support in both hardware and software.

What I encounter here is relentless non-sensicle attacks against a format like there's no tomorrow, but I find entertainment in responding to them.

Why, there isn't a need to. Blu-ray had already surpassed HD DVD in the most fundamental way (in capacity and bandwidth) in its conception, not to mention the subsequent major industry support in both hardware and software.

What I encounter here is relentless non-sensicle attacks against a format like there's no tomorrow, but I find entertainment in responding to them.Hmmm. Non-"Sensicle"....Non "Sensicle". Is it really "non-sensicle"? Let's do a cursory search...Go for the easy pickings...


http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=751008

Thanks Sony for letting us know just how crappy BD-50 can be!

Forget that BD also has other great releases, on MPEG2 even. How convenient.

How convenient that you just missed my entire first sentence and twist my post to your liking. :rolleyes:

NEVER I mentioned that BD doesn't have great release. The POINT IS that Sony is being stupid by bundling PS3 with crap quality movie that is NOT ear and eye candy. Is it clear enough for you now?

Sigh. Twist and twist and twist and twist. Typical BD apologists.

From Variety:

It's a whole new game for H'wood (http://www.variety.com/article/VR1117954177.html?categoryid=20&cs=1)

PS3 plays Blu-ray DVDs, and the success of the machine may well determine the fate of the format. Simply put, if the 400,00 units Sony is shipping to North America don't convert enough people to Blu-ray, it may prompt a lot of studios to shift their allegiances to Toshiba's rival HD-DVD.If Variety reflects Hollywood, then Hollywood is looking at the PS3 very closely...

What I don't get is all the folks who continue to make excuses for Sony.
Amen.

Prime example #1:

Why, there isn't a need to. Blu-ray had already surpassed HD DVD in the most fundamental way (in capacity and bandwidth) in its conception, not to mention the subsequent major industry support in both hardware and software.

What I encounter here is relentless non-sensicle attacks against a format like there's no tomorrow, but I find entertainment in responding to them.

Does Canada even have a date for analog TV shutdown ?


B2B:I don't know, but don't think it does. I don't know of any good Canadian boards and don't expect to see news like that here.

he mentioned Talladega Nights because this is supposed to be the movie used to demo / showcase BD.

David.
1) how does it compare to the DVD?
2) there is the 50GB that can be bought.

David already answered the question "Why Talladega Nights?" But let me hit it home again. This is the disc that 500,000 families will be getting with their PS3. Shouldn't Sony have gotten it right? How was their execution compared to Microsoft bundling King Kong on HD-DVD with the Add-on?


2CH: the difference is that it will go to people that think DVD is good enough. They will look at it, see it is MUCH better and re-evaluate if they should be looking for something better. The add-on is aimed at someone that wanted to spend 200$ and that wanted HD, he might have bought it because he could not afford more or because he says he wants HD but is not intelligent enough to realize that he can't get HD from most studios and if he wanted that he would need to go BD

For the add-on the movie is there to help convince people to buy the add-on instead of the Toshiba. So it needs to be a great movie. For the PS3 it is there to show the PS3 owner that BD movies are better then DVD, and that it does. It is there to convince the PS3 owner to spend money on BD movies, if they included the 50GB version no one will need to buy it.

From Variety:

It's a whole new game for H'wood (http://www.variety.com/article/VR1117954177.html?categoryid=20&cs=1)

If Variety reflects Hollywood, then Hollywood is looking at the PS3 very closely...

The real situation is... if people don't respond to the BD movie playback in PS3, it's that HD on shiny discs isn't a real interesting thing compaired to DVD and that problem is squarely one of content, not format.

If all that Hollywood is going offer with HD is old movies at twice the price of DVD that require new players at five times the price of DVD, then what did they think was going to happen ??

b2b

The real situation is... if people don't respond to the BD movie playback in PS3, it's that HD on shiny discs isn't a real interesting thing compaired to DVD and that problem is squarely one of content, not format.Well, thank all that is holy that you know what the real situation is! :)

If all that Hollywood is going offer with HD is old movies at twice the price of DVD that require new players at five times the price of DVD, then what did they think was going to happen ??Hollywood is running out of patience with BD, the PS3, and attach rates...How many PS3s were sold at launch?

HD-DVD is the only logical way to resell all that crap they want to resell. Low mastering costs, low replication costs, until the next best thing (downloading) comes along...:D

How many PS3s were sold at launch?
All of them? :D

HD-DVD is the only logical way to resell all that crap they want to resell. Low mastering costs, low replication costs, until the next best thing (downloading) comes along...:D
In your opinion, sure. In mine, not so. I don't think all studios are that eager to give all power to Toshiba and Microsoft, which, when you think about it, is what HD DVD is all about... :o

Originally Posted by 2Channel
What I don't get is all the folks who continue to make excuses for Sony.
Amen.

Prime example #2:


2CH: the difference is that it will go to people that think DVD is good enough. They will look at it, see it is MUCH better and re-evaluate if they should be looking for something better. The add-on is aimed at someone that wanted to spend 200$ and that wanted HD, he might have bought it because he could not afford more or because he says he wants HD but is not intelligent enough to realize that he can't get HD from most studios and if he wanted that he would need to go BD

For the add-on the movie is there to help convince people to buy the add-on instead of the Toshiba. So it needs to be a great movie. For the PS3 it is there to show the PS3 owner that BD movies are better then DVD, and that it does. It is there to convince the PS3 owner to spend money on BD movies, if they included the 50GB version no one will need to buy it.
Anthony do you even read what you write before you hit the submit button?

How is a sorry transfer going to convince anyone but the most rabid PS3/Blu Ray fanboy defending their format of choice that it's any thing special. If this BD title is going to people that you say think DVD is good enough, it's low quality certainly isn't going to do much to change their minds. And it certainly won't do anything for the large number of folks hooking this up to their SD tv's.

mod

please challenge the information: not the poster

Thanks :)

mod

please challenge the information: not the poster

Thanks :)
Are we allowed to challenge assumptions? :)

Hollywood is running out of patience with BD, the PS3, and attach rates...How many PS3s were sold at launch?


Mike: how many HD DVD players, add-ons and PCs?

All of them? :D Yes, all of them. Less than the periodicals state...

In your opinion, sure. In mine, not so. I don't think all studios are that eager to give all power to Toshiba and Microsoft, which, when you think about it, is what HD DVD is all about... :oThe traditional CE vendors do not work here - we are talking about software, not hardware...There is no reason for Samsung, Pioneer, Panny, et. al. to compete here, in terms of a pure playback box... PS3 for playback will trounce them. HD-DVD will trounce them.

Are we allowed to challenge assumptions? :)

please do .. challenge the inferences too ... best thing to do is to challenge the desired reading of the text :D

Arguably, for now, BD PQ does not need to be better, and it is also definitely no worse (simply an effect of sharing the same codecs as the competing format). If PQ had been the basis for some to choose HD DVD over Blu-ray before, then it should no longer be an issue unless one dwells in the past, ignores current revelations, and disregards potential in favour of immediate satisfaction.

i disagree, for that price, the PQ should be SIGNIFICANTLY better!! :D

Are we allowed to challenge assumptions? :)

challenge the assumption as an opinion- we all have them....
still no need to challenge the poster -

I agree. As long as BD is priced higher than HD-DVD, then it MUST look significantly better than HD-DVD. Furthermore, it should CONSITENTLY be significantly better than HD-DVD. Especially when the BD camp have been claiming that BD is better than HD-DVD.

How is a sorry transfer going to convince anyone but the most rabid PS3/Blu Ray fanboy defending their format of choice that it's any thing special.
did you see it? did you compare DVD , BD and HD DVD version of it (sorry forgot HD DVD version= DVD)

smithfarmer :when was the last time you saw J6P talking about "The image frequently looks a bit flat and veiled".
or
" the three dimensionality of better high definition transfers is just not there. "
the guy even admitted
the reviewer even admits he does not know if that is how it is intended to look
"Since I didn't see this one in the theaters, it is hard to say what is intentional or not"

what
J6P
will see and know is

"Colors are great and contrast is solid"

as well as it is MUCH better then DVD because the real artifacts won't be there

If this BD title is going to people that you say think DVD is good enough, it's low quality certainly isn't going to do much to change their minds. And it certainly won't do anything for the large number of folks hooking this up to their SD tv's.

have you tried it and made a DVD/BD comparison?

That is the difference between rabid HD DVD fan and not. Jumping to asinine conclusions and not

Mike: how many HD DVD players, add-ons and PCs?
By January 1, 2007? I might go for Hd DVD, or a tie. Which is a win for HD DVD. Sony can't stand HD DVD being there. Royalties are halved.

i disagree, for that price, the PQ should be SIGNIFICANTLY better!!

g55555sim : for most it is, the only comparison is to DVD on an HD DVD player :)

By January 1, 2007? I might go for Hd DVD, or a tie. Which is a win for HD DVD. Sony can't stand HD DVD being there. Royalties are halved.

not sure what you mean, are you saying Jan1 2007 # devices that can play HD DVD=# devices that can play BD? care to make the brakedown, I am curious to see what numbers you are thinking of

By January 1, 2007? I might go for Hd DVD, or a tie. Which is a win for HD DVD. Sony can't stand HD DVD being there. Royalties are halved.

I don't think that Toshiba even has access to a supply of 1,000,000 blue lasers to build that many products. Even if they did, they don't have a product (HD-DVD) that will support that kind of purchases by the public. DVD only sold 315,136 units sold in its first year (CEA info).

If you are going to claim that HD-DVD numbers are going to be better than DVD, then join the club at Warner and Toshiba and seek help while there is still time... ;)

This is what DVD did back in 1997.. DVD FAQ info..
Here's reality:

* 1997
o 349,000 DVD-Video players shipped in the U.S. (About 200,000 sold into homes.)
o 900 DVD-Video titles available in the U.S. Over 5 million copies shipped; about 2 million sold.
o Over 500,000 DVD-Video players shipped worldwide.
o Around 330,000 DVD-ROM drives shipped worldwide with about 1 million bundled DVD-ROM titles.
o 60 DVD-ROM titles (mostly bundled).

b2b

did you see it? did you compare DVD , BD and HD DVD version of it (sorry forgot HD DVD version= DVD) ....have you tried it and made a DVD/BD comparison? That is the difference between rabid HD DVD fan and not. Jumping to asinine conclusions and not


This is intellectual honesty? That's like me asking you to compare the HD DVD copy of Serenity to the the BD version of the The Fifth Element. :eek:


I'll tell you this though, I trust the Highdefdigest review quoted here by b2b.
Fleshtones appear accurate, if a bit waxy.

Unfortunately, what 'Talladega Nights' suffers from is really awful contrast. I have no idea why it looks this way (and I didn't see it theatrically), but it is as if the entire image has been completely flattened out and darkened. There is zero "pop" to the presentation -- it's like watching the video through a pair of polarized sunglasses. As a result, depth and detail appear surreal and washed out, and colors are nowhere near as vibrant as they could have been. There is certainly none of the three-dimensionality I'm accustomed to with great high-def. It's hard to describe until you see it, but it is telling that the deleted scenes on this disc, which are also presented in full 1080p and 2.35:1 widescreen, look much better. It is doubly a shame, as Sony is bundling 'Talladega Nights' with the launch of its PlayStation 3 next-gen game console -- I can only hope there is just something wrong with my eyes and I'm the only one who finds 'Talladega Nights' this unwatchable.

And just to note, this review was from BD 50 release and the version that's included with the PS3 is on a BD 25 disc so I can only imagine how the quality turned out on that one. Unfortunately I couldn't find a review of the PS3 playing it's included copy of the disc.

This is intellectual honesty? That's like me asking you to compare the HD DVD copy of Serenity to the the BD version of the The Fifth Element. :eek:


I'll tell you this though, I trust the Highdefdigest review quoted here by b2b.


And just to note, this review was from BD 50 release and the version that's included with the PS3 is on a BD 25 disc so I can only imagine how the quality turned out on that one. Unfortunately I couldn't find a review of the PS3 playing it's included copy of the disc.

Well if you are going to "quote" my "quote" at least put all of it in... That might be considered "intellectual honesty" ;)
It doesn't seem like there is anything wrong with the source material, which looks as clean as a whistle. Grain is almost absent from the transfer, with solid blacks and consistent color saturation. I also noticed no chroma noise, compression artifacts or posterization. The film's color palette is quite bright and lively, with sun-drenched exteriors and a fine use of primary colors, in particular blues, reds and yellows. Fleshtones appear accurate, if a bit waxy.

b2b

Well if you are going to "quote" my "quote" at least put all of it in... That might be considered "intellectual honesty" ;)


b2b
It wasn't pertinent as I had no disagreement with Anthony on that. :)

I agree. As long as BD is priced higher than HD-DVD, then it MUST look significantly better than HD-DVD.

Huh? Blu-ray discs basically cost exactly the same as HD-DVDs.

Huh? Blu-ray discs basically cost exactly the same as HD-DVDs.

I think he was highlighting the player cost

In what looks like a strange twist these are the numbers I see in two owner head count polls.

PS3 Owners : 59

HD DVD Add-on Owners : 484

This is intellectual honesty?
smithfarmer: what is? comparing things that don't exist to things that do?

That's like me asking you to compare the HD DVD copy of Serenity to the the BD version of the The Fifth Element.


no I asked you to do what J6P will do, he will compare DVD to BD. If a reviewer does not think it is the best BD he saw who the hell cares. J6P did not see the best BD titles, and if he buys them and decides that it was a bad version and BD is much better then what Sony included then

a) it worked and got them to buy more BDs

b) they will think BD looks much better then what I thought.

I'll tell you this though, I trust the Highdefdigest review quoted here by b2b.


Obviously you don't need to see the movie. Like all fanboys, find the worst review highlight the worst parts and pretend the movie is much worst.

In what looks like a strange twist these are the numbers I see in two owner head count polls.

PS3 Owners : 59

HD DVD Add-on Owners : 484


OI!!!! :D the PS3 head count thread was created on the 17th. the XBox 360 head count has a week head start (HD DVD seems to have a head start on everything nowadays :D )

.. anyhow i dont agree to the move of the PS3 head count to the PS3 thread. i want the votes to be relevant to BD, that was why i created it in the BD player thread. hope mods can do something about that ...

It wasn't pertinent as I had no disagreement with Anthony on that.


come on b2b the discussion was intelectual honesty and why would someone that will watch a movie that
doesn't seem like there is anything wrong with the source material, which looks as clean as a whistle. Grain is almost absent from the transfer, with solid blacks and consistent color saturation. I also noticed no chroma noise, compression artifacts or posterization. The film's color palette is quite bright and lively, with sun-drenched exteriors and a fine use of primary colors, in particular blues, reds and yellows. Fleshtones appear accurate, if a bit waxy.
compared to an artifact full bad transfer DVD

we all know thanks to smithfarmer is that the only thing J6P cares about is
There is certainly none of the three-dimensionality I'm accustomed to with great high-def

and so they won't buy into BD

In what looks like a strange twist these are the numbers I see in two owner head count polls.

PS3 Owners : 59

HD DVD Add-on Owners : 484

Addendum to your data..

Toshiba A2 Owners : 0

;)

b2b

Addendum to your data..

Toshiba A2 Owners : 0

;)

b2b

Addendum to your addendum:

Pioneer BDP-HD1 Owners: 0

Sony BDP-S1 Owners: 0

:D

Sony can't stand HD DVD being there. Royalties are halved.Royalties on a format remain the same whether you are talking about a Blu-ray/HD DVD player or a universal player. The only difference is that you get two sets of royalties for two HD formats with a universal player. One of the reasons I would prefer to have a clear victor in this format war.


In what looks like a strange twist these are the numbers I see in two owner head count polls.

PS3 Owners : 59

HD DVD Add-on Owners : 484Interesting, but rather meaningless until we know how many HD DVD add-ons were released. In fact it is somewhat curious that Microsoft didn't bother to announce that number. Of course what would even be more useful is knowing how many HD DVD add-ons were sold.

Interesting, but rather meaningless until we know how many HD DVD add-ons were released. In fact it is somewhat curious that Microsoft didn't bother to announce that number. Of course what would even be more useful is knowing how many HD DVD add-ons were sold.

The HD-DVD Addon is collecting dust at stores all across So Cal. Theres 0 intrest in it. I'd also do a poll of how many of those Addon owners own A1's, if they answer honestly, it should be over 70% of them. Everytime i read a post about the Addon, it has "Unlike my A1" in it. Pretty funny.

The HD-DVD Addon is collecting dust at stores all across So Cal. Theres 0 intrest in it. I'd also do a poll of how many of those Addon owners own A1's, if they answer honestly, it should be over 70% of them. Everytime i read a post about the Addon, it has "Unlike my A1" in it. Pretty funny.

Please oh please tell me you did not base your stats of the HD DVD add-on sell thru by measuring the dust level on its boxes......in south california no less.......

The HD-DVD Addon is collecting dust at stores all across So Cal. Theres 0 intrest in it.

So Cal must be a very dusty place indeed :p

edit1 : Quite a few CCs are showing out of stock. Not sure exactly what is collecting dust ;)

edit2 : Looks like most best buys are out of stock too. What is your zip code ... let me check what the websites say. At this point looks like your credibility is at 0.

Interesting, but rather meaningless until we know how many HD DVD add-ons were released.

Why ?

The poll shows many more avs people have the hd dvd add-on compared to ps3. What has that got to do with the release numbers ?

In fact it is somewhat curious that Microsoft didn't bother to announce that number.

Why. How many such accessories have you seen numbers of ?

No less valid than an AVS poll.

Why ?

The poll shows many more avs people have the hd dvd add-on compared to ps3. What has that got to do with the release numbers ?Because the release numbers would be more useful than a poll of people who own one on AVS Forum.


Why. How many such accessories have you seen numbers of ?Well a external HD DVD drive is slightly different than a controller so if a lot of them were going to be released I think Microsoft would have promoted that fact. After all Microsoft basically made the external HD DVD drive because of their involvement in the format war. As such I expected more press releases from them concerning the sales rate of the HD DVD drive.

Because the release numbers would be more useful than a poll of people who own one on AVS Forum.

Why ? If I want to know the level of interest in AVS, this is the right poll.

This is clearly a case of sour grapes :p


Well a external HD DVD drive is slightly different than a controller so if a lot of them were going to be released I think Microsoft would have promoted that fact.

So is the wheel or the camera or ....

Why ? If I want to know the level of interest in AVS, this is the right poll.

This is clearly a case of sour grapes :p

So is the wheel or the camera or ....

Considering there aren't any other HD-DVD players around (other than a few discontinued ones) it's more a case of no grapes rather than sour... ;)

b2b

I agree. As long as BD is priced higher than HD-DVD, then it MUST look significantly better than HD-DVD. Furthermore, it should CONSITENTLY be significantly better than HD-DVD. Especially when the BD camp have been claiming that BD is better than HD-DVD.

If you're stuck in October then perhaps. There is now a decent value Blu-ray player that does much more than the Toshibas. Hence my proposal that BD does not need to look any better than HD DVD (and again, it should look no worse because of the limited i.e. three codecs that they share, fundamentally).

Now, can BD look and sound better than HD DVD simply with its higher capacity and bandwidth? Definitely yes - logic dictates it.

Why ? If I want to know the level of interest in AVS, this is the right poll.

This is clearly a case of sour grapes :p
Let's get it on :D

"HD-DVD is better; More videophiles think so (proof: AVS forum polls). J6P, you should realize this and buy it also. Marketing prowess, manufacturer choice, branding and content are irrelevant (Irrelevant, I tell you! What?! You don't agree with that? Umm, ok..) when price is less."

I am hopeful that this is Not how strategy is decided in HD-DVD corps. If it is, I think HD-DVD won't survive into 2008. As of now, I personally think HD-DVD will survive the long term (and I will buy a PS3).

Congrats to MS for selling more add-ons to AVS folk than sony sold PS3s. Now, lets wait for the market verdict in 2007 :)

Well a external HD DVD drive is slightly different than a controller so if a lot of them were going to be released I think Microsoft would have promoted that fact. After all Microsoft basically made the external HD DVD drive because of their involvement in the format war. As such I expected more press releases from them concerning the sales rate of the HD DVD drive.

Well, then again, let's see Sony's release numbers for the PS3. Exactly.

I would think no one is going to post numbers about an item they want to sell through the holiday until after the holiday is over. If you're going to see 360 add-on sales numbers, I'm thinking you'll see them in January. Much like I'm sure that's when you'll see Sony numbers.

Why ? If I want to know the level of interest in AVS, this is the right poll.

This is clearly a case of sour grapes :p




So is the wheel or the camera or ....

Do you mean we can also do a poll on a PS3 fan site, and it will win the war for Sony? WOW!

Likewise, a poll on this forum would only tell us about the demographic of this forum. I also can't say for sure that this demographic hasn't been affected by the hostile presence of certain individuals here.

I will anticipate further comments by saying that while moderation on this forums have been very appropriate, there is just enough laxity that it has become a free-for-all match everyday.

Well, then again, let's see Sony's release numbers for the PS3. Exactly.

I would think no one is going to post numbers about an item they want to sell through the holiday until after the holiday is over. If you're going to see 360 add-on sales numbers, I'm thinking you'll see them in January. Much like I'm sure that's when you'll see Sony numbers.

Sony doesn't seem to have a problem with quoting shipping numbers..
Forbes.com: So how many PS3 units have actually made it from overseas as of Thursday?

Dille: In terms of putting location tracking devices on each unit and having them report back to us--well that’s a little difficult. But we’ve shipped the units and are doing everything we can to get them to retail stores by midnight and tomorrow. Boats are out of the equation completely. That’s not happening. We’re taking every unit onto an airplane, and those planes are taking off regularly--it’s a considerable expense, and we don’t want to do that forever. We’re comfortable we’ll have the 400,000 within a week. Then we want a steady flow for the rest of the year--all planes. The cavalry is coming.

I would think that Microsoft should know how many addons they are having built and when they might ship a quantity of them.

b2b

Come on b2b. The guy even said "In terms of putting location tracking devices on each unit and having them report back to us--well that’s a little difficult." So they don't know either. And we both know Sony didn't launch the number of units that they said they would, and some estimates have been half that.

"We’re comfortable we’ll have the 400,000 within a week." isn't the same as "We've currently shipped 400,000 this week." and you know it.

So maybe there is the answer everyone's looking for. Maybe Microsoft isn't going to try and speculate how many add-on's they've sold. Maybe they're waiting to get concrete numbers together.

Yeah, Sony hasn't had a problem quoting shipping numbers. They also haven't been right yet.

regarding the lack of HDMI on XBox add-on. From my POV, it's a non issue. By the time ICT is switched on (approx 2010 or later), you're already buying new players anyway....
You are confusing ICT with DOT (digital only token), which will become effective in 2010. Studios can turn on ICT anytime they want, or they can do it title by title. Even though I am happy with my Xbox HD DVD addon, I might still retunr it and wait for a sku with built-in HD DVD and HDMI.

Come on b2b. The guy even said "In terms of putting location tracking devices on each unit and having them report back to us--well that’s a little difficult." So they don't know either. And we both know Sony didn't launch the number of units that they said they would, and some estimates have been half that.

"We’re comfortable we’ll have the 400,000 within a week." isn't the same as "We've currently shipped 400,000 this week." and you know it.

So maybe there is the answer everyone's looking for. Maybe Microsoft isn't going to try and speculate how many add-on's they've sold. Maybe they're waiting to get concrete numbers together.

Yeah, Sony hasn't had a problem quoting shipping numbers. They also haven't been right yet.

Well at least we have an idea, that Sony has an idea of a number (400,000). With the Xbox addon the only idea that Microsoft has given is ( ???? ).

b2b

Do you mean we can also do a poll on a PS3 fan site, and it will win the war for Sony? WOW!

Did you even read my original post ? :rolleyes:

Yeah, Sony hasn't had a problem quoting shipping numbers. They also haven't been right yet.

LOL. Good catch.

Why ? If I want to know the level of interest in AVS, this is the right poll.True, but I thought you were actually curious about HD DVD sales rates. Also if you want to see a poll on the level of interest on the PS3 you will have to wait a few months until they are available on store shelves. Until than asking how many people have a PS3 is not really going to tell you how many people want one. A somewhat important difference in my opinion.


So is the wheel or the camera or ....So your saying that Microsoft isn't going to release the sales numbers for HD DVD drives since they don't consider it any differently than those accessories? I guess that could be possible though considering how they promoted it earlier this year at CES I thought it was more important.


Well, then again, let's see Sony's release numbers for the PS3. Exactly.I would like to see that as well, but at least we know that between 200,000 and 400,000 of them have been released. We don't really have a clue how many Xbox 360 drives were released. For instance if someone said that only 10,000 HD DVD add-on drives were released could you prove them wrong?

This is the HDTV Software Media Discussion Subforum.... how is it that a poll regarding users of Hi-Def media is inappropriately skewed for people discussing Hi-Def media??? Guess what, some of those AVS people buying the PS3 "may" be buying it exclusively for games!!! I very much doubt any of those HD-DVD Add-on folk are buying to play games only.

Cheers...
Duy-Khang Hoang

Guess what, some of those AVS people buying the PS3 "may" be buying it exclusively for games!!!True, and that certainly would be a factor in any poll that deals with PS3 owners and Blu-ray playback. One problem with that though is how do you know that someone who buys it only for games won't end up using it for Blu-ray playback?

True, and that certainly would be a factor in any poll that deals with PS3 owners and Blu-ray playback. One problem with that though is how do you know that someone who buys it only for games won't end up using it for Blu-ray playback?
Nat doesn't know and (imo, based on months of observation) he fervently hopes (for the sake of HD-DVD) that it doesn't happen.

Whereas the corporations that support BD exclusively seem to think it will.

This pesky dilemma: Who to believe? Fortune 500 strategists or a stranger on AVS forum?


Ok, i have decided.. (i am a fast thinker, not) :D

I go with the people with the vision and experience in these matters, not those whose support (in my, possibly incorrect but quite strong, opinion) is determined by who they happen to be working for at the time of the format war.

He doesn't know and (imo) he fervently hopes (for the sake of HD-DVD) that it doesn't happen.

This makes no sense. Why should I care if someone uses their PS3 for BD playback? Thats like giving a damn if someone used their car to carry things other than people...

A simple poll suggested that there are more Add-on owners on AVS than are PS3 owners... this is hardly surprising as it is still very hard to get your hands on a PS3, I'm afraid I won't be able to get one when they land in Australia either and that's over 3 months away (luckily Ninja Gaiden Sigma isn't likely to launch by then either). From a Hi-Def perspective, being on a Hi-Def centric forum, it would seem that more people are watching Hi-Def media on the Add-on vs PS3, that is obvious enough even from a pure numbers point of view... but then there are also gamers on this forum, which don't have a care for Hi-Def media at this early point in the game which may have bought the PS3 for the gaming side exclusively, I know plenty of people who don't want to invest in Hi-Def media just yet. However the owners of the Add-on are exclusively movie watching purchases as that is all that peripheral is capable of. What is so damned hard to believe?

Cheers...
Duy-Khang Hoang

This makes no sense. Why should I care if someone uses their PS3 for BD playback? Thats like giving a damn if someone used their car to carry things other than people...

I am sorry, dude. I was talking about the other dude, not you.

My bad for not clarifying :)

Did you even read my original post ? :rolleyes:

Hmmm, it appears you haven't read mine, or it may have given you a case of occulogyric crisis.

Well at least we have an idea, that Sony has an idea of a number (400,000). With the Xbox addon the only idea that Microsoft has given is ( ???? ).

Ok, let's clear something else up really quick. If you really want to get technical, the marketing guy was responding to a question on Forbes. I haven't seen any media journalist ask a Microsoft marketing rep how many add-ons they shipped. Maybe if someone asks them, they might answer it.

Now until then gaming companies like Microsoft and Sony don't issue press releases declaring how many things they've shipped. They never have, they likely never will. In my 6 years running Next Level Gaming I never once got a press release from Microsoft, Sony, Nintendo, or Sega (when I ran Dreamcast HQ before that) telling us how many units they shipped out. When they are ready to announce their sales numbers, they will send out a press release. That's how it works.

And again I ask, why give a number out that you end up being wrong about? First it was 1 million at launch. Then it was 400,000 at launch. Now we don't even know if it was 200,000 at launch. That arguement of "at least we have an idea" is not valid here. The truth is we DON'T have an idea, and all we can do is speculate and try and figure out if Sony's numbers are right. So exactly how has this information even been useful?

If that's the case, Microsoft can easily come out and say they shipped 5 million add-on units and all you could do is speculate if they really did or not.

Ok, let's clear something else up really quick. If you really want to get technical, the marketing guy was responding to a question on Forbes. I haven't seen any media journalist ask a Microsoft marketing rep how many add-ons they shipped. Maybe if someone asks them, they might answer it.

Now until then gaming companies like Microsoft and Sony don't issue press releases declaring how many things they've shipped. They never have, they likely never will. In my 6 years running Next Level Gaming I never once got a press release from Microsoft, Sony, Nintendo, or Sega (when I ran Dreamcast HQ before that) telling us how many units they shipped out. When they are ready to announce their sales numbers, they will send out a press release. That's how it works.

And again I ask, why give a number out that you end up being wrong about? First it was 1 million at launch. Then it was 400,000 at launch. Now we don't even know if it was 200,000 at launch. That arguement of "at least we have an idea" is not valid here. The truth is we DON'T have an idea, and all we can do is speculate and try and figure out if Sony's numbers are right. So exactly how has this information even been useful?

If that's the case, Microsoft can easily come out and say they shipped 5 million add-on units and all you could do is speculate if they really did or not.

They have been asked, right here on AVS..
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnthonyP
Amir: I can understand both of them. But can you at least give us a ball park figure on how many MS thinks they will ship in 2006 or so far? are we talking 1M? or 10k? or 100k> or 200k like some are saying?

I am confused why it matters to you Anthony. I thought you were in blu-ray camp. Did you get a recent job as a market analyst?

But no, Xbox related data like this is highly confidential. Come and tell me something I don't know about PS3 shipment volumes and I might think about reciprocating...

__________________
Amir
Microsoft
HD DVD insider
VC-1 insider in BD/HD DVD
Ask me questions about HD DVD here
And here too..
The $199 Xbox 360 add-on also posted strong sales out of the gate Nov. 13 and gave an unexpected sales boost to the Xbox 360 console, Microsoft senior program manager Kevin Collins said, while doing press demonstrations of HD DVD from the HD DVD Promotional Group’s 18-wheeler parked on the Universal Studios backlot in Universal City, Calif., this week.

“It’s going right out,” he said, declining to speak of initial units shipped. Stores “are struggling to keep up with demand.”
http://www.videobusiness.com/index.asp?layout=article&articleid=CA6393228

There is your answer.. So much for asking..

b2b

Ok, let's clear something else up really quick. If you really want to get technical, the marketing guy was responding to a question on Forbes. I haven't seen any media journalist ask a Microsoft marketing rep how many add-ons they shipped. Maybe if someone asks them, they might answer it.

Now until then gaming companies like Microsoft and Sony don't issue press releases declaring how many things they've shipped. They never have, they likely never will. In my 6 years running Next Level Gaming I never once got a press release from Microsoft, Sony, Nintendo, or Sega (when I ran Dreamcast HQ before that) telling us how many units they shipped out. When they are ready to announce their sales numbers, they will send out a press release. That's how it works.

And again I ask, why give a number out that you end up being wrong about? First it was 1 million at launch. Then it was 400,000 at launch. Now we don't even know if it was 200,000 at launch. That arguement of "at least we have an idea" is not valid here. The truth is we DON'T have an idea, and all we can do is speculate and try and figure out if Sony's numbers are right. So exactly how has this information even been useful?

If that's the case, Microsoft can easily come out and say they shipped 5 million add-on units and all you could do is speculate if they really did or not.

In sony's case, the shipment can't be much more than 400k. If Microsoft could just reveal how many they shipped, it could tell us whether selling "most" of it means anything significant in comparison.

Xbox 360 HD DVD add-on reviewed on areadvd.de

Pros:
- Very good picture quality
- Reduced access time
- Great value for money

Cons:
- Perceptible console noise
- Slight dynamic range compression when playing back DD+ tracks
- Playback of Dolby True HD and DTS HD tracks only possible via conversion

All in all, it gets a "Very Good" rating, and a 10/10 rating for value.

....

And again I ask, why give a number out that you end up being wrong about? First it was 1 million at launch. Then it was 400,000 at launch. Now we don't even know if it was 200,000 at launch. That arguement of "at least we have an idea" is not valid here. The truth is we DON'T have an idea, and all we can do is speculate and try and figure out if Sony's numbers are right. So exactly how has this information even been useful?

...

for the life of me i can't figure out why the "ardent bd supporters" ignore this while trying to crucify hd dvd/ms for everything, including a "dongle" :rolleyes:

MediaTek and Sunext reportedly more aggressive on Blu-Ray chip Schedule (http://www.digitimes.com/systems/a20061120PB206.html)

MediaTek and Sunext Technology, a subsidiary of Sunplus Technology, will launch chips for Blu-ray drives next year, earlier than their scheduled launch of chips for HD-DVD drives, according to the Chinese-language Economic Daily News (EDN).

MediaTek has sent samples of chips for Blu-ray and HD-DVD drives to customers, including Lite-On IT, Samsung Electronics and LG Electronics (LGE), while Sunext will launch Blu-ray drive chips first and chips supporting both Blu-ray and HD-DVD drives later, the paper reported.

b2b, you've got to be kidding us. By having someone on this forum ask Amir and he not giving an answer is not the same as a legitimate interview sanctioned by the company to talk to their PR man. Give at least this one a rest. The truth is PR men are also called spindoctors for a reason. They are good at answering a question that can be quoted without actually answering the question.

So what are you trying to prove, that someone did ask MS and they declined to give #'s? Or that Sony's #'s have to be right because they gave us one?

Thank you, Paul, you beat me to it. Asking a senior program manager or a technical developer is not the same as asking a marketing or PR person. In fact, I would venture a guess that subject is something Amir is not even allowed to talk about, much less would know the answer to.

b2b, you've got to be kidding us. By having someone on this forum ask Amir and he not giving an answer is not the same as a legitimate interview sanctioned by the company to talk to their PR man. Give at least this one a rest. The truth is PR men are also called spindoctors for a reason. They are good at answering a question that can be quoted without actually answering the question.

So what are you trying to prove, that someone did ask MS and they declined to give #'s? Or that Sony's #'s have to be right because they gave us one?

Kind of like this.?? "They are selling like hotcakes.. can barely keep up..."
Kevin Collins said, while doing press demonstrations of HD DVD from the HD DVD Promotional Group’s 18-wheeler parked on the Universal Studios backlot in Universal City, Calif., this week.

“It’s going right out,” he said, declining to speak of initial units shipped. Stores “are struggling to keep up with demand.”

Yup, that's some good spinning... ;)

b2b

Kind of like this.?? "They are selling like hotcakes.. can barely keep up..."
b2b

At my local Best Buy, two (2) XBox HD DVD players on the shelf, PS3 display ONLY. Interesting, did not expect to see either?

Hello

may I remind posters it is OK to question technical facts of a post...

but never bash or attack another member: regardless of your post count

Thanks


some [more]threads deleted

Hmmm, it appears you haven't read mine, or it may have given you a case of occulogyric crisis.

lol

Blu-ray Disc™ Gets in Front of Target Market with Launch of High-Definition TV Advertising

High-Def TV, Print and Web Work Focal Points of Extended Marketing Campaign


AUSTIN, Texas--(BUSINESS WIRE)--A core group of Blu-ray Disc supporters including Twentieth Century Fox, Panasonic, Philips, Pioneer, Sony and Warner Bros., working with Austin-based advertising and marketing agency, SicolaMartin, is utilizing the power of high-definition television along with a series of advertising and marketing initiatives to reach target audiences during the holiday shopping season. In order to best demonstrate the benefits of the Blu-ray Disc next-generation optical disc format, the group has produced a 30-second commercial shot for high-definition television that debuted on November 17. This spot, along with broader placement in print and online media outlets, builds upon earlier advertising efforts directed at home-entertainment enthusiasts. (Ad may be viewed at http://www.sicolamartin.com/bluraybroadcast/)


http://home.businesswire.com/portal/site/google/index.jsp?ndmViewId=news_view&newsId=20061120005180&newsLang=en

Sony DADC 50 GB Blu-ray Up and Running (http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/061120/nym001.html?.v=62)


Sony DADC has announced that they now have six 50 GB Blu-ray Disc production lines up and running.



In addition to the six dual layer lines currently running, the company has nine 25 GB Blu-ray Disc production machines in operation and has shipped over three million Blu-ray Discs for a client base of over 35 customers since beginning production in May of this year.

Sony DADC's Terre Haute facility also has two Phase Transition Mastering (PTM) systems and has been mastering 50 GB discs since mid-September 2006. Over 130 BD titles have been mastered, which include both 25 and 50 GB titles. Both PTM machines are capable of mastering PS3 titles as well. Sony DADC has three fully integrated Blu-ray packaging lines, all of which are fully operational and capable of supporting video and PS3 titles in both 25 GB and 50 GB formats.

has shipped over three million Blu-ray Discs

Let me be the first to suggest that at least 2 million of those are PS3 game discs. (Even 2 million game discs would not fulfill a very high attach rate for consoles sold in 2006.)

Let me be the first to suggest that at least 2 million of those are PS3 game discs. (Even 2 million game discs would not fulfill a very high attach rate for consoles sold in 2006.)

Very likely. Perhaps more.

But, like HD DVD, this is SHIPPED not sold. People like counting attach rate chickens before they hatch. :)

Gary

A core group of Blu-ray Disc supporters including Twentieth Century Fox, Panasonic, Philips, Pioneer, Sony and Warner Bros.
Interesting to see WB as part of the "core group" of BD supporters, and in the same token, Disney is not listed.

All of this being said, it just seems the industry support for BD is overwhelming at this point. I'm starting to think HD DVD is really facing an uphill battle, despite what some people who post here would have us believe. If this is the way the industry wants it to be, then let's end this thing once and for all and everyone move forward...

Yeah it definitely looks that way to me. I still want to get an HD-XA1 and already have a 360 so the dongle looks attractive (especially at the sub $200 prices it can be had for), but have a bit of a long term worry that HDCP gets turned on and turns my dongle into something barely better than a normal DVD player... Concerns of the format dying are far more real for me than with Blu-ray since even if Sony gave up on all arms (CE, content, PC), Blu-ray will still have double the branded players and much more content exclusive to them...

At this point the add-on looks like a no-brainer, though to stay neutral in the format war even if I really don't like the aesthetics.

And again I ask, why give a number out that you end up being wrong about? First it was 1 million at launch. Then it was 400,000 at launch. Now we don't even know if it was 200,000 at launch. That arguement of "at least we have an idea" is not valid here. The truth is we DON'T have an idea, and all we can do is speculate and try and figure out if Sony's numbers are right. So exactly how has this information even been useful?

If that's the case, Microsoft can easily come out and say they shipped 5 million add-on units and all you could do is speculate if they really did or not.
Sony and Microsoft are both public companies. Claiming to have shipped a given quantity when in fact it's a different reality would have dire consequences with investors, the SEC, and others. That's very different than estimating a volume which will be shipped and not reaching that figure, although if one can prove the company knew at the time they claimed that shipment volume that they couldn't possibly meet it could also have ramifications.

for the life of me i can't figure out why the "ardent bd supporters" ignore this while trying to crucify hd dvd/ms for everything, including a "dongle"Because the number shipped last week is fairly meaningless, since it appears Sony will sell everything they can produce in the next six months, and all indications are that they are ramping production. So if they sold 400K units last week or it happens next week, and if they've sold 1M by the end of November or by the end of December just doesn't matter that much, since they will very likely have sold millions come next spring.

[QUOTE=Michael MullisAsking a senior program manager or a technical developer is not the same as asking a marketing or PR person. In fact, I would venture a guess that subject is something Amir is not even allowed to talk about, much less would know the answer to.[/QUOTE]Amir has made many statements here which suggest that he has a high level of autonomy to disclose that which he chooses to.

Considering that Microsoft can only benefit by disclosing significant HD-DVD add-on sales, I find it quite telling that they aren't quantifying this in any way beyond "selling like hotcakes". Does that mean total sales are comparable to the daily pancake sales at my local IHOP?

But, like HD DVD, this is SHIPPED not sold.Not even shipped, in many cases, but warehoused for upcoming title releases.

Considering that Microsoft can only benefit by disclosing significant HD-DVD add-on sales, I find it quite telling that they aren't quantifying this in any way beyond "selling like hotcakes". Does that mean total sales are comparable to the daily pancake sales at my local IHOP?
Now that was pretty funny. Though I don't recommend to anyone who bought the HD DVD add-on that they add some cinnamon, apples, and whipped cream on top of their strap-on, err, I mean add-on. Hahahahaha!!! :D ;)

Interesting to see WB as part of the "core group" of BD supporters, and in the same token, Disney is not listed.

All of this being said, it just seems the industry support for BD is overwhelming at this point. I'm starting to think HD DVD is really facing an uphill battle, despite what some people who post here would have us believe. If this is the way the industry wants it to be, then let's end this thing once and for all and everyone move forward...
lol!

Dang, thanks: you folks are always good for a laugh. Don't think some of us don't appreciate it.

lol!

Dang, thanks: you folks are always good for a laugh. Don't think some of us don't appreciate it.
Glad you have a sense of humor too. :)

Considering that Microsoft can only benefit by disclosing significant HD-DVD add-on sales, I find it quite telling that they aren't quantifying this in any way beyond "selling like hotcakes". Does that mean total sales are comparable to the daily pancake sales at my local IHOP?

Not necessarily. If MS is using a new supplier for for the blue diode they may want to keep that quite in case there is some legal questions as to patents. Considering the minimal effect on MS financials the player would have they are under no real obligation to disclose such information. While I agree with you that for marketing purposes they should be sharing any successes, if they they are trying to avoid any court induced imposition on parts supply they would be wise to keep such info to themselves.

Not necessarily. If MS is using a new supplier for for the blue diode they may want to keep that quite in case there is some legal questions as to patents. Considering the minimal effect on MS financials the player would have they are under no real obligation to disclose such information. While I agree with you that for marketing purposes they should be sharing any successes, if they they are trying to avoid any court induced imposition on parts supply they would be wise to keep such info to themselves.

Well I guess I will just have to file this one under "And I thought I had heard everything" ... :confused:

;)

b2b

no I asked you to do what J6P will do, he will compare DVD to BD. If a reviewer does not think it is the best BD he saw who the hell cares. J6P did not see the best BD titles, and if he buys them and decides that it was a bad version and BD is much better then what Sony included then

a) it worked and got them to buy more BDs

b) they will think BD looks much better then what I thought.

Obviously you don't need to see the movie. Like all fanboys, find the worst review highlight the worst parts and pretend the movie is much worst.
AnthonyP,

I have no intention of buying a PS3 as I've already explained that I have an Xbox 360 that I'm quite happy with. Now seeing as I don't have a way to do a direct comparison, why don't you tell us here how that comparison looked to you.

Do you have a PS3 ? If not, how do you even have a clue what the included disc looks like? The answer is that you don't. You go on and on about how J6P is going to blown away when he sees the greatness that is on the disc included with the PS3.

If the BD50 version looks bad according to the reviews, how on earth do you expect J6P to be so blown away by the included 25GB version that he's gonna run right out and buy lots more. Sorry but IMO it aint gonna happen, J6P owns a SD tv and won't see any difference at all.

As a matter of fact, even those J6P's with HD sets under 40" aren't going to see much of a difference to justify the higher costs of the HD discs on either format and will more than likely be quite happy with the SD versions.

Sony and Microsoft are both public companies. Claiming to have shipped a given quantity when in fact it's a different reality would have dire consequences with investors, the SEC, and others. That's very different than estimating a volume which will be shipped and not reaching that figure, although if one can prove the company knew at the time they claimed that shipment volume that they couldn't possibly meet it could also have ramifications.Here's an interesting rumor/stat/piece of data...

Nintendo estimated to have sold more than 600,000 Wii consoles at launch (http://www.tgdaily.com/2006/11/20/nintendo_launches_wii/)

The least expensive of the three third generation gaming machines had a smashing start: At least if we believe NexGen wars, a website that tracks game console sales, Nintendo had sold more than 667,000 Wii consoles by Monday noon, more than double of what Sony was able to sell of its Playstation 3, which was estimated to have sold about 259,000 units initially and will remain in very limited supply until the second quarter of next year.259,000 units is well short (actually about 1/8 of the original projection of 2 million units back in Spring 2006. Not to mention the delay...What gives there Talk...Dire consequences with investors? If I were an investor in Sony, I'd be ripped, They delivered 1/8 what they said they would...If I were Fox, Lionsgate, Columbia, Disney, et. al., I'd be ripped, as well..

Here's an interesting rumor/stat/piece of data...

Nintendo estimated to have sold more than 600,000 Wii consoles at launch (http://www.tgdaily.com/2006/11/20/nintendo_launches_wii/)

259,000 units is well short (actually about 1/8 of the original projection of 2 million units back in Spring 2006. Not to mention the delay...What gives there Talk...Dire consequences with investors? If I were an investor in Sony, I'd be ripped, They delivered 1/12 what they said they would...If I were Fox, Lionsgate, Columbia, Disney, et. al., I'd be ripped, as well..


I saw the data from http://nexgenwars.com/ yesterday. The data seems to be updated everyday. It was around 250k for PS3 yesterday. Where did they get the numbers from? PS3 number is too low. 260k worldwide means only 180k for US on the launch. It is hard to believe. We need more accurate source.

I saw the data from http://nexgenwars.com/ yesterday. The data seems to be updated everyday. It was around 250k for PS3 yesterday. Where did they get the numbers from? PS3 number is too low. 260k worldwide means only 180k for US on the launch. It is hard to believe. We need more accurate source.I'm thinking 259K PS3s at launch. Not quite 2,000,000 at launch. oh well. Not quite the truth, yet again...Thanks for everything Sony.

http://nexgenwars.com/images/x360_forum2.jpg (http://nexgenwars.com/)

http://nexgenwars.com/images/ps3_forum2.jpg (http://nexgenwars.com/)

http://nexgenwars.com/images/wii_forum2.jpg (http://nexgenwars.com/)

:)

I'm thinking 259K PS3s at launch. Not quite 2,000,000 at launch. oh well. Not quite the truth, yet again...Thanks for everything Sony.

Yup, PS2 launched below original figures as well. It was so horrible that they barely came in first last gen ;) :p

But to be fair, I guess they all make mistakes:

Bill Gates said they'd have a 10 million unit-head start by the time the PS3 entered the market.. Looks like they almost hit it that goal as well, lol ;)



;) = sarcasm

I'm thinking 259K PS3s at launch. Not quite 2,000,000 at launch. oh well. Not quite the truth, yet again...Thanks for everything Sony.
I am sure you are more than welcome :)

Imo, HD-DVD supporters / BD-downers should be genuinely thankful to Sony for under-supplying PS3s.

Otherwise, the last bastion of HD-DVD's strategy, Universal, would have gone neutral if 2 million PS3s were lying in J6P houses. Whatever people might claim about MS or toshiba/rca/add-on players, Universal is the only corp that is providing HD-DVD a viable tactical advantage.

If Universal goes universal, its the beginning of the end for HD-DVD (imo).

Its not necessarily a good thing, given that its a good format, but its market reality and its time for one format to take over so J6P can shop with peace of mind. We have our cheap hardware thanks to the war and movies are as cheap as they are gonna get. Let's move on.

...


Its not necessarily a good thing, given that its a good format, but its market reality and its time for one format to take over so J6P can shop with peace of mind. We have our cheap hardware thanks to the war and movies are as cheap as they are gonna get. Let's move on.


We do? Can you provide some links so that we can all partake in the deals?? :D

I don't know about the 360 add-on, but I can certainly attest to the Nintendo Wii's selling like hotcakes!

Replication will be the undoing of the BD side here...Unfortunatly it will not be played out in public...

Considering that Microsoft can only benefit by disclosing significant HD-DVD add-on sales, I find it quite telling that they aren't quantifying this in any way beyond "selling like hotcakes". Does that mean total sales are comparable to the daily pancake sales at my local IHOP?

This is some severe grasping of straws. Maybe you want Microsoft to speculate like Sony so that when that number is wrong you can use it as some sort of anti-Microsoft/anti-HD-DVD arguement? I'm sure when they are ready to release their numbers they will.

True, and that certainly would be a factor in any poll that deals with PS3 owners and Blu-ray playback. One problem with that though is how do you know that someone who buys it only for games won't end up using it for Blu-ray playback?

sorry to break it to you pal but BDA doesnt care if the PS3 purchasers use the console to watch BD movies. They just want a sale figure. Their PR is already utilising the sales figure of PS3 when we all know that those who lined up for days to get the console most probably wont use the console for movies.

You my dear is sanctioning what they are doing.

The PS3, which sold out all 400,000 units on Friday, includes a Blu-ray player

http://www.tvpredictions.com/blurayads112006.htm

PS3 Gives Blu-ray Big Boost - Blu-ray HDTV DVD players are now in nearly 500,000 U.S. homes.

http://www.tvpredictions.com/ps3blu112006.htm

Before folks can count on Sony to deliver the death knell for HD DVD via the PS3, you might hope that the reviews of the system start to get a bit better than this. Regardless of how good a BD player it might end up being, it first has to be a decent game system in order to move units after the initial launch period:

"Howard Stringer, you have a problem. Your company’s new video game system just isn’t that great."

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/20/arts/20game.html?_r=2&ref=technology&oref=slogin&oref=slogin

Before folks can count on Sony to deliver the death knell for HD DVD via the PS3, you might hope that the reviews of the system start to get a bit better than this. Regardless of how good a BD player it might end up being, it has to be a decent game system in order move units :

requires a subscription...can you post more snippets?

Here's an interesting rumor/stat/piece of data...

Nintendo estimated to have sold more than 600,000 Wii consoles at launch

oh dear !! there goes potential PS3 buyers ... ;)

Because the release numbers would be more useful than a poll of people who own one on AVS Forum.

What if the AVS Forum figures are the other way around? i am certain the use of these tiny polls on PS3 and HD DVD add on at AVS is more valid than claiming The PS3, which sold out all 400,000 units on Friday, includes a Blu-ray player or Blu-ray HDTV DVD players are now in nearly 500,000 U.S. homes. as the launch sales of the PS3 is almost not relevant to BD movie.

The HD-DVD Addon is collecting dust at stores all across So Cal. Theres 0 intrest in it. I'd also do a poll of how many of those Addon owners own A1's, if they answer honestly, it should be over 70% of them. Everytime i read a post about the Addon, it has "Unlike my A1" in it. Pretty funny.

wow ... one week oredi "collecting dust" .. that place must be very dusty and "airconditioningless" LOL :D

requires a subscription...can you post more snippets?

strange .. i can read it though i am not a subscriber.. maybe its a grant for people for people from 3rd world nation :D

requires a subscription...can you post more snippets?


It's not very long.

You can get around NY Times articles requiring subscription by going to bugmenot.com.

Actually, go to joystiq.com, from which the NY Times author gets his talking points.

"After just the first weekend after launch, Sony has failed to deliver on the potential of the PS3!"

"Sony has to use software updates to deliver some of the stuff XBL has, which was also delivered by software updates!"

"Sony doesn't have XBL!"

"no HDMI cable!"



No mention of features PS3 has which X360 lacks them. Just the other way around.

From Time magazine:

Friday, Nov. 17, 2006
Sony's Playstation 3 is Not Worth the Hype

People who have been camping out for days finally get their PS3s today. Sadly, both their time and money has been wasted

By LEV GROSSMAN
Sony released the Playstation 3 in Japan on November 11. That was last Saturday. By Thursday Japanese import units had already made their way halfway around the world to New York City's Chinatown, where they were available for a 100% markup — and they were selling. That's how high the demand is for Sony's new video game machine: people would actually pay double the price to get it one day early. ....




For now it's pretty much moot anyway. Because of the difficulty of manufacturing Playstation 3's, Sony has only been able to put a few hundred thousand units on sale in the U.S., so unless you spent last night camped out in front of a Gamestop, buying a Playstation3 is not an option. Congratulations: you made the right call. And you smell better for it, too.

link: http://www.time.com/time/business/printout/0,8816,1560635,00.html

edited by mod: copyright article
____________________________________________________________

I'm looking at getting the PS3 as my first BD player (I have little interest in gaming). The reviews of it as a BD player that I have seen has been mixed - some say it's as good as stand alone players, while others say it's inferior. I'd like to check it out myself, but it may be a few months before they are readily available.

Actually, go to joystiq.com, from which the NY Times author gets his talking points.

"After just the first weekend after launch, Sony has failed to deliver on the potential of the PS3!"

"Sony has to use software updates to deliver some of the stuff XBL has, which was also delivered by software updates!"

"Sony doesn't have XBL!"

"no HDMI cable!"

No mention of features PS3 has which X360 lacks them. Just the other way around.

The full article is two posts above yours, everyone can come to their own conclusion, but I must say how convenient of you to add your own quotes to fit your needs.

His talking points are from his personal usage of the PS3.

We could only wish Sony would admit their failures as has
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8948202&&#post8948202

A Weekend Full of Quality Time With PlayStation 3
By SETH SCHIESEL
.....
As a practical matter, given the limited quantities Sony has been able to manufacture, the PlayStation 3 will surely remain sold out throughout the holiday season. If you can’t find one, don’t fret. Sony still has a lot of work to do. As Mr. Grant of Joystiq put it: “Maybe in six months it’ll be finished. Maybe by next fall I’ll be able to do all the cool stuff. I’m still kind of waiting.”
Damn. It looks like all those buyers will use the unit as a BD player. :)

Yup, PS2 launched below original figures as well. It was so horrible that they barely came in first last gen ;) :p

But to be fair, I guess they all make mistakes:

Bill Gates said they'd have a 10 million unit-head start by the time the PS3 entered the market.. Looks like they almost hit it that goal as well, lol ;)



;) = sarcasm

Sarcasm or not, the two can't be compared. One relies on the customers buying, the other is simply the ability of the manufacturer to make good on their promises.

Cheers...
Duy-Khang Hoang

Before folks can count on Sony to deliver the death knell for HD DVD via the PS3, you might hope that the reviews of the system start to get a bit better than this. Regardless of how good a BD player it might end up being, it first has to be a decent game system in order to move units after the initial launch period:

Funny, considering that it will take almost a miracle for Toshiba to get the A2 here and that the Xbox addon is sold out (Best Buy is saying backorder for 1-2 weeks) it looks like HD-DVD is doing it's own "spiral of death" pretty well all by itself.

Having ZERO products available during the busiest gift giving season is a lot worse than selling out a few hundreds of thousands of PS3.. ;)

b2b

mod

Posting entire copyright articles on AVS is not allowed: snippets would be OK; and/or working links

2 articles edited

Thanks :)

Funny, considering that it will take almost a miracle for Toshiba to get the A2 here and that the Xbox addon is sold out (Best Buy is saying backorder for 1-2 weeks) it looks like HD-DVD is doing it's own "spiral of death" pretty well all by itself.

I'm confused. Did the other players just disintegrate into thin air?

Funny, considering that it will take almost a miracle for Toshiba to get the A2 here and that the Xbox addon is sold out (Best Buy is saying backorder for 1-2 weeks) it looks like HD-DVD is doing it's own "spiral of death" pretty well all by itself.

Having ZERO products available during the busiest gift giving season is a lot worse than selling out a few hundreds of thousands of PS3.. ;)

b2b

sony ps3 sold out != microsoft hd dvd addon soldout :rolleyes:

sony ps3 soldout = sony/pioneer/etc standalone no-show

sony ps3 soldout ?= microsoft 360 sales ?= nintendo wii sales

sony ps3 soldout != toshiba g1 soldout != toshiba g2 delay

btw, these are only 'targets' ;)

zero product for sale != soldout :rolleyes:

I'm confused. Did the other players just disintegrate into thin air?

The discontinued models ?? Sorry, I forgot about them... There are so few of them around they hardly count at this point in time..

It should be ZERO new models.

b2b

sony ps3 sold out != microsoft hd dvd addon soldout :rolleyes:

sony ps3 soldout = sony/pioneer/etc standalone no-show

sony ps3 soldout ?= microsoft 360 sales ?= nintendo wii sales

sony ps3 soldout != toshiba g1 soldout != toshiba g2 delay

btw, these are only 'targets' ;)

No HD-DVD products on shelves = no sales

btw, that's the reality... ;)

b2b

Let me be the first to suggest that at least 2 million of those are PS3 game discs. (Even 2 million game discs would not fulfill a very high attach rate for consoles sold in 2006.)

Zassk: agree (many will be games) but for the past two years there was BS how hard (almost impossible, some even sci-fi) BD is to replicate.

now we have in a longer period for HD DVD and it is 1.5M HD DVDs and 3M BDs.

now we have in a longer period for HD DVD and it is 1.5M HD DVDs and 3M BDs.

Sure, they also use the same master therefore master cost should be almost the same. Do you even believe your own post?

BTW, Memory-tech has the facility ready for 100M HD DVD per month.

I have no intention of buying a PS3 as I've already explained that I have an Xbox 360 that I'm quite happy with

smithfarmer: obviously you don't and that is why you are BSing about BD and PS3. It is a typical fanboy thing to do.

Do you have a PS3 ? If not, how do you even have a clue what the included disc looks like? The answer is that you don't. You go on and on about how J6P is going to blown away when he sees the greatness that is on the disc included with the PS3.

I don't have it. But the rest of your assumptions are wrong. Unlike you, I do have friends and one of them bought a PS3. He brought it over (and the PS3) and saw it and tried some gameplay.

If the BD50 version looks bad according to the reviews,

no he did not. The review said

doesn't seem like there is anything wrong with the source material, which looks as clean as a whistle. Grain is almost absent from the transfer, with solid blacks and consistent color saturation. I also noticed no chroma noise, compression artifacts or posterization. The film's color palette is quite bright and lively, with sun-drenched exteriors and a fine use of primary colors, in particular blues, reds and yellows. Fleshtones appear accurate, if a bit waxy.

you were the one that wanted to focus on the fact that he also said it was not the best HD he saw. That was your delusional fanboy reading of what was written.

No HD-DVD products on shelves = no sales

btw, that's the reality... ;)

b2b
Not quite. The 360 add-on's are available at 7 out of the 8 CC's within a 40 mile radius of my house. I also have 6 BB's within that range, 5 of those locations had none but at one location I was able to add 3 of them to my cart for in store pick up and they'll even let you use a 12% off coupon for your purchase. ;)

If you need a BD player you're really in luck, all the locations had plenty of the Samsung's available. :p

This is some severe grasping of straws. Maybe you want Microsoft to speculate like Sony so that when that number is wrong you can use it as some sort of anti-Microsoft/anti-HD-DVD arguement?

Michael Mullis: we have the exact numbers for Japan


Of the 88,400 units sold in just two days, 62 percent of sales (precisely 54,600 units) went to the 60-gigabyte version of the console
http://ps3.qj.net/PS3-Japan-launch-88-400-sold-in-2-days/pg/49/aid/72739

and soon we will have the exact numbers for the world (directly from the source)

----

anyways. No one is asking for exact numbers. But aren't you interested if it is <10k or >1m that have shipped?

'm confused. Did the other players just disintegrate into thin air?

Michael Mullis: what other player?

We could only wish Sony would admit their failures as has

WayneL: I kept on telling him not to listen to BS from HD DVD fanboys.

I don't have it. But the rest of your assumptions are wrong. Unlike you, I do have friends and one of them bought a PS3. He brought it over (and the PS3) and saw it and tried some gameplay.
And yet you fail to describe the fantastic quality of it in your own words. Come on, we're waiting..... You're not afraid to give everyone here a gushing review are you?

Or is it possible you might be exposed as nothing but a mere cheerleader when a credible site like Secret's do their inevitable review of the PS3's blu ray playback with that disc?

I'm done with the sniping and will try to take the high road from here on out as our mod's have asked us to do. Why don't you try the same.

BTW, Memory-tech has the facility ready for 100M HD DVD per month.

lymzy: who cares if the facility is there if no one is using it?

And yet you fail to describe the fantastic quality of it in your own words. Come on, we're waiting..... You're not afraid to give everyone here a gushing review are you?

Or is it possible you might be exposed as nothing but a mere cheerleader

why should I? you already decided I don't have it and I am a mere cheerleader? So anything I say will be just dismissed even something simple (such as it looks much better then the DVD). I watch and enjoy movies. I don’t write about them using colourful language like “It lacks 3D of some movies” to make myself look important

lymzy: who cares if the facility is there if no one is using it?

Who cares about you saying no one using it? They built it anyway. :) BTW, I really want to believe the master cost for both are almost the same because of the same device. But I decide not to listen to BS from BD fanboys.

Sure, they also use the same master therefore master cost should be almost the same. Do you even believe your own post?

BTW, Memory-tech has the facility ready for 100M HD DVD per month.

What are they planning for..??

Time for a little math...

When there are 1M players sold (I think we are still 800-900 thousand still short of that goal) that would require every player owner to buy 100 discs per month to keep the plant busy... that just doesn't seem within the "realms of possibilities" to me.

Are they using the Warner or Toshiba sales forecasts ??? ;)

b2b

Not quite. The 360 add-on's are available at 7 out of the 8 CC's within a 40 mile radius of my house. I also have 6 BB's within that range, 5 of those locations had none but at one location I was able to add 3 of them to my cart for in store pick up and they'll even let you use a 12% off coupon for your purchase. ;)

If you need a BD player you're really in luck, all the locations had plenty of the Samsung's available. :p

Well that's strange. First they are all sold out, now they are easy to find. What would really be nice is if Microsoft would say how many they have to sell then there wouldn't be all of these "mystery" numbers floating around about HD-DVD and the Xbox addon.

Seems like there is a lot more noise than substance for everything about HD-DVD here of late..

b2b

Who cares about you saying no one using it? They built it anyway.

not me but HD DVD promotion group. You said they can produce 100M a month. they have shipped 1.5M total. Not to mention that according to technicolor they replicatedthe Universal and Paramount titles so that part of the 1.5M could not have been from Memory-tech. Even if we don't dissmiss those titles and assume all came from there, we are still talkning 1/2 a gday's production if your number and the studios number are correct.

I'm done with the sniping and will try to take the high road from here on out as our mod's have asked us to do. Why don't you try the same.

why should I?
Because it's the right thing to do. If not, I'll end up responding as such:

I don’t write about them using colourful language like “It lacks 3D of some movies” to make myself look important

No, you'd rather come here denouncing all things HD DVD related and all those who support it in order to make yourself look important.

So you see, around and around it goes, where it stops, only a mod knows.

Now I told you I'll try to take the high road. Will you?

not me but HD DVD promotion group. You said they can produce 100M a month. they have shipped 1.5M total. Not to mention that according to technicolor they replicatedthe Universal and Paramount titles so that part of the 1.5M could not have been from Memory-tech. Even if we don't dissmiss those titles and assume all came from there, we are still talkning 1/2 a gday's production if your number and the studios number are correct.

LOL. So what if MS annouced their add-on numbers, you will just say most of it is sitting on shelf all across the country and the number doesn't add up.....just like what you did with the 1.5m Hd DVD disc number.

In the end, you see what you want to see. And we all know what you want to see Anthony. :rolleyes:

Well that's strange. First they are all sold out, now they are easy to find. What would really be nice is if Microsoft would say how many they have to sell then there wouldn't be all of these "mystery" numbers floating around about HD-DVD and the Xbox addon.
There is no mystery for the add-on's. They sold out of the first shipment and are steadily being resupplied with new shipments, same as the PS3's. ;)

Seems like there is a lot more noise than substance for everything about HD-DVD here of late..
Same as any Blu Ray product it seems.

There is no mystery for the add-on's. They sold out of the first shipment and are steadily being resupplied with new shipments, same as the PS3's. ;)


Same as any Blu Ray product it seems.

Well that's good, if it weren't for the addon, HD-DVD would out of business for the holidays ...

b2b

Well that's good, if it weren't for the addon, HD-DVD would out of business for the holidays ... No other alternative but to wait and see how it all pans out. How low does the price on a stand alone player half to fall before you scoop one up?

I see that the NYT article was posted above, but this is a really nasty piece for Blu-ray. Its bad for a couple subtle reasons that I thought I should share.

Monday is also a bad day for its publication as every NYT business subscriber person reads the Monday paper for agenda setting conversations through the week.

Its significant when the main stream press like the NY Times takes a visible disapointed take on a major product launch. They don't usually try to be trendsetters in opinion setting for consumer products, they usually reflect consensus.

One thing that happens in PR circles is that a negative review from the NYT or the Washington Post, LA Times, Chicago Tribune or San Jose Mercury News really hurts because other press outlets tend to use them as a guide to what is mainstream consensus and it becomes a liscense for for other criticism.

Expect to see some other bad press articles on the PS3 performance as other outlets jump on the bandwagon.

Sony needs to get some positive press quickly.

BTW:
It's interesting that they noticed the lack of cables.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/20/arts/20game.html?_r=1&ref=technology&oref=slogin

A Weekend Full of Quality Time With PlayStation 3
By SETH SCHIESEL
Published: November 20, 2006

Howard Stringer, you have a problem. Your company’s new video game system just isn’t that great.
...
Sony blithely insisted that the PS3 would leapfrog all competition to deliver an unsurpassed level of fun.

Put bluntly, Sony has failed to deliver on that promise.
...
Measured in megaflops, gigabytes and other technical benchmarks, the PlayStation 3 is certainly the world’s most powerful game console. It falls far short, however, of providing the world’s most engaging overall entertainment experience. There is a big difference, and Sony seems to have confused one for the other.
...
Over the weekend a clear sense of disappointment with the PlayStation 3 emerged from many gamers.
...
With the PS3, 12 minutes after opening the box I realized that Sony inexplicably does not include cables to connect the machine to a high-definition television. Keep in mind that one of Sony’s main selling points has been that the PS3 plays Blu-Ray high-definition movie discs. But high-definiton cables? Sold separately. The Xbox 360, by contrast, ships with one cable that can connect to either a standard or high-definition set.
...
By contrast, one of the things I’ve always enjoyed most on the Xbox 360 is being able to listen to my own music while playing Pebble Beach or driving my virtual Ferrari. Doesn’t seem too complicated, but the PS3 can’t do it.
...
In that sense it often feels as if the PlayStation 3 can’t walk and chew bubble gum at the same time
...
But the list of the PS3’s disappointments remains, from its undersupported voice chat to its maddening cellphone-like text messaging system. (In frustration I ended up plugging in a USB keyboard.) Overall, Sony seems to have put a lot of effort into cramming as much silicon horsepower under the hood as possible but to have forgotten that all the transistors in the world can’t make someone smile.

No other alternative but to wait and see how it all pans out. How low does the price on a stand alone player half to fall before you scoop one up?

Well actually I pay more attention to the movie releases than what the players are selling for. I look at the new release thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=665702) and there are some pretty good movies, but nothing that really gives me a overpowering urge to spend a large sum of money to just oggle at wonder of HD.

Plus too, there is the matter of the aging front PJ that needs to be replaced. Maybe when Hollywood starts putting out new releases day and date (say the new James Bond) I will get all excited and what-not.

The PS3 is interesting because it does a lot more than a plain ole player does, so it is highest on my list. Standalone players... <$300 for BD.. HD-DVD, not really interested..

b2b

Just to beat the dead horse further, its doubly bad when a newsmagazine publishes the same thought at the same time as a major newspaper.

http://www.time.com/time/business/printout/0,8816,1560635,00.html

Sony's Playstation 3 is Not Worth the Hype
People who have been camping out for days finally get their PS3s today. Sadly, both their time and money has been wasted

By LEV GROSSMAN
Friday, Nov. 17, 2006

The Playstation 3 goes on sale in the U.S. today, but I wouldn't recommend buying one, not even for the regular price, which is plenty expensive without the import markup.
...
For that kind of scratch you want the deluxe treatment, and the PS3 simply doesn't deliver it. It's got some good-looking games, but unless you have a top-notch TV, the difference isn't mind-blowing. (And even if you do have a fancy TV, Sony makes you supply your own HDMI cable. Stingy.) And Sony's launch line-up just isn't that interesting.
...
Playstation 3 doesn't have a battle-tested, feature-rich online service the way the Xbox does. It doubles as a Blu-Ray DVD player (that's the main reason for the high retail price), but guess what? Nobody caresAnd they mentioned the dang cables again.

Earlier I had posted how I was worried that the lack of cables and media friendly remote would impact the PS3's use as a Blu-ray player. Its interesting to me that both of these authors saw the same thing.

Just to beat the dead horse further, its doubly bad when a newsmagazine publishes the same thought at the same time as a major newspaper.

http://www.time.com/time/business/printout/0,8816,1560635,00.html

Sony's Playstation 3 is Not Worth the Hype
People who have been camping out for days finally get their PS3s today. Sadly, both their time and money has been wasted

By LEV GROSSMAN
Friday, Nov. 17, 2006

And they mentioned the dang cables again.

Earlier I had posted how I was worried that the lack of cables and media friendly remote would impact the PS3's use as a Blu-ray player. Its interesting to me that both of these authors saw the same thing.

Maybe I should inform Sony they can buy a hdmi cable from monoprice for as low as $5 or less. Does seem weird they didn't include a $5 cable in a $600 system.

LOL. So what if MS annouced their add-on numbers, you will just say most of it is sitting on shelf all across the country and the number doesn't add up.....just like what you did with the 1.5m Hd DVD disc number.



ckong: I never said the 1.5 shipped did not add up. The numbers that I said did not add up was someone saying each HD DVD has sold 25k or more copies when the1.5M shipped disks where of 110 titles. 110*25k=2.75M almost double the 1.5M that shipped.

I also pointed out (because RDJAM did 1.5M/70k=21.4 attachement rate). That the real sales number must be much less then 1.5M, if we assume 1000 stores carry HD DVD and have on average 1 copy of each movie. That brings it to 1.39M….. every store has a few copies of different movies on the shelves.

Stupid assumptions by fanboys I will question because I am not stupid. But actual numbers I never do.

Just to beat the dead horse further

So how many times are the HD-DVD fans going to post about the same two articles... ?? So are Seth and Lev the new wizards of gaming ??

:rolleyes:
Lev Grossman is an American writer, notably the author of the novels Codex [1] and Warp. He also contributes regularly to Time Magazine, primarily as a book reviewer. He has written for the New York Times, Salon, Lingua Franca, Entertainment Weekly, Time Out New York, and the Village Voice.

In writing for Time Magazine, he has also covered the consumer electronics industry, interviewing Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, and reviewing videogames such as Halo 2.

He has interviewed Tom Clancy, Salman Rushdie, Neil Gaiman, Al Franken and Johnny Cash.

Mr. Grossman is the twin brother of video game author Austin Grossman, and brother of sculptor Bathsheba Grossman. He is an alumnus of Lexington High School and Harvard College. He lives in Brooklyn

And Seth fell into MS's backpocket over a year ago..
There is a saying in technology circles, often delivered with rueful respect, that if you give the folks at Microsoft enough chances, they will eventually deliver a compelling product. They did it with spreadsheets. They did it with Web browsers. And now, with the new Xbox 360, the Bill Gates team has delivered a legitimately excellent gaming and home media system. And there is nothing rueful about that.

Certainly, the graphics are incredibly detailed, lifelike and vivid, far beyond anything conceivable in the current generation of game consoles. Playing an Xbox 360 game can be almost like controlling a Pixar animated film or inhabiting "Band of Brothers." And that's on a regular old television. On a high-definition set, get ready for your eyes to weep.
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/25/arts/25xbox.html?ex=1164258000&en=3df0b82c80f25794&ei=5070

b2b

More of a neutral look between the formats.

Time.com: PS3 vs XBOX 360 HD DVD
http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,1561457,00.html

So how many times are the HD-DVD fans going to post about the same two articles... ?? So are Seth and Lev the new wizards of gaming ?? If I'm a HD DVD fan, its because its delivered. I'll be a Blu-ray fan too when it delivers value. I'm really a HD lover.

I posted because I thought noone else had posted the significance of those major publications hitting at the same time and the mention of the missing cables as being noticed by both writers.

BTW B2, you seem amazingly well prepared and researched, almost as if your in anti - HD DVD pro - Blu-ray opposition research.

Having a positive review of a consumer product is not always the same thing as being in someones pocket.

The point was, valid views or not, the prominance of the media outlet was a significant factor. I'm sure you would be shouting if they had been positive reviews. ;)

If I'm a HD DVD fan, its because its delivered. I'll be a Blu-ray fan too when it delivers value. I'm really a HD lover.

I posted because I thought noone else had posted the significance of those major publications hitting at the same time and the mention of the missing cables as being noticed by both writers.

BTW B2, you seem amazingly well prepared and researched, almost as if your in anti - HD DVD pro - Blu-ray opposition research.

Having a positive review of a consumer product is not always the same thing as being in someones pocket.

The point was, valid views or not, the prominance of the media outlet was a significant factor. I'm sure you would be shouting if they had been positive reviews. ;)

What is amazing is to see that level of propaganda so well placed and at the level it was published. As far as being prepared, all that took was 5 mins. on google and another 10 looking at what those guys were all about. One guy is a general purpose writer and the other is so in love with Microsoft, his review is almost as biased as if Bill Gates wrote it himself. ;)

b2b

We do? Can you provide some links so that we can all partake in the deals?? :D
ooh, a (wanna-be) funny man :)

hint: think of it as a royal We for all i care. I honestly cant be bothered to debate about the PS3 as decent BD player point anymore when I see sarcasm. Enjoy the subsidized toshiba or the 200 USD add-on..

ignore shields: Activate! :D

Because it's the right thing to do.
smith dude, you accidentally misunderstood what Anthony said or you delibrately misquoted him.

Imo, he said "why should I" in response to your "request" for a gushing review , not taking the high road :)

cheers

From Variety on Sunday (not a good weekend for Blu-ray press)

http://www.variety.com/article/VR1117954177.html?categoryid=20&cs=1

PS3 plays Blu-ray DVDs, and the success of the machine may well determine the fate of the format. Simply put, if the 400,00 units Sony is shipping to North America don't convert enough people to Blu-ray, it may prompt a lot of studios to shift their allegiances to Toshiba's rival HD-DVD.There's a long way to go before Redmond becomes the go-to place for studios -- in fact, besides podcasts, firm isn't offering any video content on Zune at the time of release -- but the brains behind Zune is Microsoft hipster J. Allard, a thirtysomething who's viewed as being deeply in touch with the youth culture Hollywood so wants to reach.

And reviews note that the Zune's video display is in many ways superior to the latest video iPod. That could make Microsoft aggressive about going after TV shows and movies. That's a form of Microsoft aggression entertainment execs would love. Gee Hollywood warming up to Microsoft and getting impatient with Sony and the PS3 adn Blu-ray promises?

Maybe a negative reaction to the PS3 is getting into the Zeitgeist. That would be a problem for Blu-ray as a format.

What is amazing is to see that level of propaganda so well placed and at the level it was published. As far as being prepared, all that took was 5 mins. on google and another 10 looking at what those guys were all about. One guy is a general purpose writer and the other is so in love with Microsoft, his review is almost as biased as if Bill Gates wrote it himself. ;)

b2b
I especially love the quote by Lev to the effect that no one cares about the BD drive in the PS3 (which is the reason he mentions for the PS3s price)

It is heartening to know that reviewers in major international mags use a broad, long-term perspective instead of their short-term, immediate gratification level to make recommendations to their readers :D

Imo, it smacks of ignorance (unpardonable in such a position) or old prejudices (even worse)

What is amazing is to see that level of propaganda so well placed and at the level it was published. As far as being prepared, all that took was 5 mins. on google and another 10 looking at what those guys were all about. One guy is a general purpose writer and the other is so in love with Microsoft, his review is almost as biased as if Bill Gates wrote it himself. ;) Effective PR and the bandwagon effect for press coverage are significant events. Its kinda irrelevant if one disagrees with them if they become conventional wisdom.

What we are seeing is not propaganda, that was Sony's and other Blu-ray supporters comments on the superiority of the PS3 before its release.

Now we are seeing criticisms based on performance and usability in the hands of reviewers and consumers. If a lot of these articles start saying the same thing, its irrelevant where they started. Its also harder to be critical of the writer when he is saying the same thing as others.

That's why I was observing that those articles are bad news for Blu-ray, because they are mainstream articles that others refer to.

No matter how you spin it, its not good news for Blu-ray.

So how many times are the HD-DVD fans going to post about the same two articles... ?? So are Seth and Lev the new wizards of gaming ??

:rolleyes:

And Seth fell into MS's backpocket over a year ago..

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/25/arts/25xbox.html?ex=1164258000&en=3df0b82c80f25794&ei=5070

b2b

You're good b2b.... :)

I'm on vacation and just catching up. Although I really want to reply back to Richard Paul's last response to me, I find you sucking me in to respond to this one instead.

I copied this from my 11/15 post on the last thread. You seemed to be actively posting at the time as well....but maybe you missed it. ;)


Let's see what third party reviewers are saying.....uh oh.....

Sony’s console in last place? Who would’ve thunk it?
http://www.revolutionportal.com/200...s3-vs-xbox-360/

We like the Wii
http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/bu...AF?OpenDocument

I can't recommend the PS3 for this season
http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/merc...ss/16000173.htm

Wait.....news flash.....

PS3 Allotment Cut Again?
http://ps3.ign.com/articles/746/746181p1.html

What will retailers do?

PlayStation 3 is sold out. How about an Xbox 360 bundle?
http://www.revolutionportal.com/


I think the PS3 is still alive and well as a low cost BD player. It may very well end up that Merril Lynch is right, and that this round of the console wars will go to Microsoft. Too much sizzle, not enough steak.

I've read lots of reviews that compare 360 vs PS3 and in many cases include Wii into the comparison as well. The PS3 never fares well in any of the comparisons I've found to date.

Ironically, this may be good for BD. If many gamers start to view the PS3 as overhyped, it may become easier for guys like me (who want a subsidized BD player) to actually get their hands on one. ;)

I'm thinking 259K PS3s at launch. Not quite 2,000,000 at launch. oh well. Not quite the truth, yet again...Thanks for everything Sony.I own a PS3 and if anything I am more confident that Blu-ray will win this format war from what I have seen of it so far. Also Mike I am a little skeptical you would have wanted Sony to meet their original launch estimate.


sorry to break it to you pal but BDA doesnt care if the PS3 purchasers use the console to watch BD movies. They just want a sale figure. Their PR is already utilising the sales figure of PS3 when we all know that those who lined up for days to get the console most probably wont use the console for movies.Well good to see that you are so sure about that. Personally though I think as time goes on many PS3 owners will try Blu-ray and that is in addition to the increasing number of PS3 owners. Not saying that the PS3 will make Blu-ray the winner of this format war, but I think it will be one of the reasons that Blu-ray will win.


You my dear is sanctioning what they are doing.How? Was it by buying the PS3 or was it by playing Blu-ray movies on it? Seriously g55555sim you should calm down and I only stated the obvious fact that any PS3 owner who wants to play a Blu-ray movie can do so.

I've read lots of reviews that compare 360 vs PS3 and in many cases include Wii into the comparison as well. The PS3 never fares well in any of the comparisons I've found to date.

Ironically, this may be good for BD. If many gamers start to view the PS3 as overhyped, it may become easier for guys like me (who want a subsidized BD player) to actually get their hands on one. ;)
Agree. I hope so too, for 2007 at least.

But I will add two dissenting points:

1. CNET, as an example, rated the PS3 higher than the 360

2. The proof of the pudding is in the eating. Lets see the market nos. If 3rd party reviewers really carry that much weight, the console war is MS' to lose :D
(which they will manage to do as soon as they think they have won)

Maybe I should inform Sony they can buy a hdmi cable from monoprice for as low as $5 or less. Does seem weird they didn't include a $5 cable in a $600 system.

Anyone who already owns a PS2 (many multiples those who own both the original XBox and the 360 combined) and already have the AV-multi-out component cables can already match the best form available from the 360 and with a fraction of the noise for nothing. Or find them for $20 (Amazon). The spectre of ICT should haunt both of these options though. The PS3 people can look to Monoprice, but where does that leave us 360 Add-on owners?

I am very much enjoying my new HD-DVD add-on (for $159 it just wasn't feasable for me to consider the gigantic and quirky XA1, as beautiful as it is, for over twice the price). The PS3 OTOH, has very many movies I was drooling over today at Best Buy (Kingdom of Heaven DC & Black Hawk Down most prominently) that I am unfortunately unlikely to ever see on HD-DVD.

As a recent demo showed from an ISF calibrated 1080p Qualia 006, there is no quantifiable performance difference between the formats, leaving only the content. Right now, HD-DVD has the edge, but they're losing ground very quickly and unless they can crack the BD exclusives, I fear they're just not going to have enough to offer...

snip...there is no quantifiable performance difference between the formats, leaving only the content. Right now, HD-DVD has the edge, but they're losing ground very quickly and unless they can crack the BD exclusives, I fear they're just not going to have enough to offer...
clear, even-handed post

Effective PR and the bandwagon effect for press coverage are significant events. Its kinda irrelevant if one disagrees with them if they become conventional wisdom.

What we are seeing is not propaganda, that was Sony's and other Blu-ray supporters comments on the superiority of the PS3 before its release.

Now we are seeing criticisms based on performance and usability in the hands of reviewers and consumers. If a lot of these articles start saying the same thing, its irrelevant where they started. Its also harder to be critical of the writer when he is saying the same thing as others.

That's why I was observing that those articles are bad news for Blu-ray, because they are mainstream articles that others refer to.

No matter how you spin it, its not good news for Blu-ray.

I'm not really going to get into some long debate over two guys opinions printed in yesterdays fish wrapper. All of this is going to play out over time and if the PS3 is truly as bad as these guys seem to think, then hundreds of thousands of people are really going to be pissed and let the world know it. And yes they should have put at least a component cable in the box, but I sure people still get mad when they buy things "batteries not included"..

b2b

I'm surprised at the fact because of its price/performance and availablity the Wii may impact PS3 sales and thus influence the Blu-ray HD DVD struggle.

Have not heard the Wii mentioned much herem becasue it does not have a HD drive but if it does suck sales from the PS3 for families, that may affect many Blu-ray movies the PS3 sells.

I'm not really going to get into some long debate over two guys opinions printed in yesterdays fish wrapper. All of this is going to play out over time and if the PS3 is truly as bad as these guys seem to think, then hundreds of thousands of people are really going to be pissed and let the world know it. And yes they should have put at least a component cable in the box, but I sure people still get mad when they buy things "batteries not included".. Agree. But I think most other reviewers will give the PS3 better marks. But those articles may open the floodgates to other criticisms.

I own a PS3 and if anything I am more confident that Blu-ray will win this format war from what I have seen of it so far.

Are you planning on posting any reviews over in the Blu-Ray section ?? I would be interested in seeing what you honestly think of the box.

b2b

Are you planning on posting any reviews over in the Blu-Ray section ?? I would be interested in seeing what you honestly think of the box.I plan to do a complete review of the PS3 so I most likely won't get around to posting it for at least another week or two.

Agree. But I think most other reviewers will give the PS3 better marks. But those articles may open the floodgates to other criticisms.

Given the amount of effort that MS has put into badmouthing the PS3, that wouldn't be surprising. ;)

It's going to take months to see if the HW is stable and how the SW starts to mature. One thing I did read was that one game came with its own patch to 1.02 and it loaded before the game started. Don't know if I really like that approach, but it was interesting.

b2b

Sony DADC 50 GB Blu-ray Up and Running (http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/story/11-20-2006/0004477786&EDATE=)

*********

Microsoft shares get lift from upgrade (http://money.cnn.com/2006/11/20/technology/microsoft_stock.reut/?postversion=2006112011)
Credit Suisse raised its rating on Microsoft Corp. to "outperform" from "neutral," saying the stock could appreciate nearly 20 percent from current levels due to the company's strengthening market position in digital entertainment, among other reasons.

I hope Amir, Ben et al get a big Christmas bonus. They deserve it.

More analysts weigh in on the quantity of PS3s sold.

Sony May Have Missed PlayStation 3 Goal, Analysts Say (Update2) (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601101&sid=acYmICIySKBw&refer=japan)

Nov. 20 (Bloomberg) -- Sony Corp. may have missed its goal of having 400,000 PlayStation 3 consoles in U.S. stores for the video-game player's Nov. 17 debut, analysts said.
...
More than half the 150 stores checked by Kaufman Bros. said they wouldn't have enough units to cover preorders, according to a Nov. 16 research note by retail analyst SooAnn Roberts. She predicts Sony will ship no more than 200,000 units to the U.S. this year.

Savner said in a Nov. 7 report that Sony would miss its target. Gikas said in a Nov. 16 note that he expected 200,000 PlayStation 3s available at the U.S. launch and 400,000 by year- end. Even worse than previous estimates...

No HD-DVD products on shelves = no sales

btw, that's the reality... ;)

b2b

ummm, no bd products on shelves = no sales ? :confused:

[EDIT: I find this amusing since I can recall you doing this when you adamantly arguing that the players were not selling and were sitting on shelves everywhere:

http://www.pricegrabber.com/p__Toshiba_HDA1_HD_DVD_Player,__17247256/search=toshiba+hd+dvd]

Maybe a negative reaction to the PS3 is getting into the Zeitgeist. That would be a problem for Blu-ray as a format.
We'll see. Meanwhile, here is a review from someone who should know what they are talking about... http://www.avrev.com/equip/playstation_3/

A very nice and thorough review. Sure, there are downsides they say, but at the end they provide this little nugget:

In the 10 year history of AVRev.com, we have never ever suggested our readers pay above retail for a product before, but Playstation 3 is so impressive we might need to break that tradition. The Sony Playstation 3 is beyond the Holiday season’s hot gift. The PS3 is ground-breaking technology, and the most significant convergence component ever sold.
:)
(Enter HD DVD folks saying he is a Sony-bitch....)

Hollywoodland (HD DVD) in February (http://www.dvdtimes.co.uk/content.php?contentid=63339)

I will be interested to see the PS3 sales curve after the first million or so sell to the hardcore, money is no object 20 somethings. Not that many families will spend 5-600 during a non-holiday...

I will be interested to see the PS3 sales curve after the first million or so sell to the hardcore, money is no object 20 somethings. Not that many families will spend 5-600 during a non-holiday...

One's who are looking for a low cost BD player will, :) and ofcourse the rabid gameboys always will. :eek:

"a little quick math will show that if this system lives up to its hype as a game system and has quality Blu-ray playback, there is an argument to be made that this is the most well-priced and important video game system in history."

"The PS3 is ground-breaking technology, and the most significant convergence component ever sold."


great minds :D

ummm, no bd products on shelves = no sales ? :confused:

[EDIT: I find this amusing since I can recall you doing this when you adamantly arguing that the players were not selling and were sitting on shelves everywhere:

http://www.pricegrabber.com/p__Toshiba_HDA1_HD_DVD_Player,__17247256/search=toshiba+hd+dvd]

That was three months ago. :eek: Those A1s have been "going, going; gone" now for forever. I guess they keep finding a few pallets at a time that were lost in the Toshiba warehouse. ;)

That blows a hole in the "70,000 units have been sold" theory too. :)

b2b

also

"From a normal seating distance the picture was not just impressive to the videophile, it is so noticeably better than DVD grandma will start dropping hints that she wants a Blu-ray player for Christmas."

the masterplan is working baby

[QUOTE=nilsp]We'll see. Meanwhile, here is a review from someone who should know what they are talking about... http://www.avrev.com/equip/playstation_3/

Same guy wrote about quality of Blu-Ray movies:
'You have poor with “The Terminator,” good with “The Fifth Element” and “50 First Dates,” and then you have unbelievable, call-your-friends-and-invite-them-over-now good with “xXx” and “The House of Flying Daggers.” '

He really knows what he is talking about!!!

smithfarmer:

...

Unlike you, I do have friends

...



Wow.

More analysts weigh in on the quantity of PS3s sold.

Sony May Have Missed PlayStation 3 Goal, Analysts Say (Update2) (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601101&sid=acYmICIySKBw&refer=japan)

Even worse than previous estimates...

Mike if you look hard enough, I'll bet you can find a analyst somewhere that is saying that no PS3 were available and it was all an elaborate hoax... ;)

And if you look real close at some the demand curves, the Xbox is quickly becoming the "man in the middle" squeezed at both the top end by the PS3 and very much so at the bottom end with the Wii. Plus Sony is still selling the PS2 and expects to do very well with it for the Holidays also.

Price curve... PS2 -> Wii -> Xbox -> PS3

b2b

another puzzling review; i hope it is simply that the developers are coming up to speed on coding for the ps3 and they rectify that soon:

Based on criteria like this, it's hard to imagine COD not impressing. After all, it sounds exciting, so where are all the pitfalls? Unfortunately, they can be found everywhere... especially if you've played the Xbox 360 version released earlier in the year. A quick comparison reveals those differences right off the bat. Be it with multiplayer options and online capabilities (360 has a point system and voice support, PS3 doesn't), or the visuals (Xbox moves at a smoother framerate with few hitches, while the PS3 version stutters often and boasts a more "washed out" color palette).


But even if you go in never having played the Xbox 360 version, Call of Duty 3's two biggest problems are still its level design and high bug count. The former isn't as bad as the latter; final stages like The Mace, Chambois, and the Corridor of Death help us forget the more straightforward and generic-feeling earlier levels (which can still be fun, they're just familiar). The constant glitches and freeze-ups, however, are downright deplorable. In the 10 hours we spent with the single-player campaign, we had to restart a checkpoint five to six times because certain flags wouldn't activate (i.e., doors that were supposed to open didn't, walls that were supposed to break wouldn't, and characters that were supposed to die couldn't).

review from ign.com: http://ps3.ign.com/articles/746/746533p2.html

the mighty cell shouldn't be having such issues...

LOL, this is such a great thread. So here is what we learned today:

1) Anyone who dares utter a bad word about the PS3 must be in Microsoft's pocket and doesn't know what they are talking about.

2) All positive PS3 reviews are written by great people who are knowledgeable and fair.

3) There are no HD-DVD players anywhere in the world. Any mention of a player by RCA, and (in my best Jim Gaffagan voice) "But they're made by Toshiba". Forget the fact that they could have been made by the Keebler Elves, apparently the player isn't out there at all.

4) HD-DVD sukz, Blu-Ray rulez. All who disagree are pwned.

Did I miss anything?

Forget the fact that they could have been made by the Keebler Elves, apparently the player isn't out there at all.


Well I never have actually SEEN one... :p

Well I never have actually SEEN one...

A Keebler Elf? Where do you think all the cookies come from, a factory?? :)

So how many times are the HD-DVD fans going to post about the same two articles...
b2b
Here's a new one for you. While they elaborate on the technicals, both good and bad, I thought this summarized it fairly well:


ArsTechnica gives PS3 6 out of 10 (http://arstechnica.com/reviews/hardware/ps3.ars/1).

[excerpt from page 7]
I think my main problem with the PS3 is that philosophically, it's a confused system. It doesn't really know what it wants to do. The 360 wants to be a social system; it wants to get you online, talking to people, playing this fun little minigames, and going for the high score and bragging rights. It wants to bring you together and make you remember what you love about gaming.

The Wii wants to get you off the couch, for you to be physical and to be part of this game world. Wii wants you to connect and to get your friends and family involved even if they don't like games. The Xbox 360 and Wii are systems that know what they want to do.

The PS3 doesn't have any grand ideas; Sony wanted something high-tech, so they started from scratch with the processor and GPU, but what does it get them? Very little so far. The controller is a mash-up of ideas from their old systems, the 360's triggers, and the Wii's motion-sensing capabilities, but once it has that tech it doesn't really know what to do with it. The Blu-ray adds cost, but adds very little to the gaming experience for the user. It's great as a media player, but for those of us who love games first and foremost, we have to look at it skeptically. The PS3 is a system with no core message, and that is what keeps it from being elegant. Will it do great things in the future? I hope so, the possibility and potential are certainly there. For now, it's power looking for a mission statement.

I'm sure you can some how relate the reviewer back to sleeping with Bill Gates within 10 hops "Kevin Bacon style" thus invalidating the whole thing... ;)

Mike if you look hard enough, I'll bet you can find a analyst somewhere that is saying that no PS3 were available and it was all an elaborate hoax... ;)The only unanimous opinion I get from them is that the number sold is way less than the 400,000 Sony claims. ;)

And if you look real close at some the demand curves, the Xbox is quickly becoming the "man in the middle" squeezed at both the top end by the PS3 and very much so at the bottom end with the Wii. Plus Sony is still selling the PS2 and expects to do very well with it for the Holidays also.

Price curve... PS2 -> Wii -> Xbox -> PS3Isn't it a strange coincidence that the lower priced consoles sell the most number of units? Where does that put the PS3?

And if there is any truth to this table, then I'd guess MS has quite a bit of room (and tons of cash) to make some changes to that demand curve...after all, If a BD drive costs Sony only $125, then MS must be making money presently on the HD DVD add on... ;)

http://www.isuppli.com/images/news/111606-2.gif

And if you look real close at some the demand curves, the Xbox is quickly becoming the "man in the middle" squeezed at both the top end by the PS3 and very much so at the bottom end with the Wii.

Retailers and analysts across North America confirm that the hottest selling gaming console this past weekend was the Xbox 360. (http://games-news.sympatico.msn.ca/Video_Games/BreakingNews/ContentPosting.htm?newsitemid=6874bba7-1c78-4f07-bff5-25738e90510a&feedname=TODD_BREAKINGNEWS&show=true&number=5&showbyline=true&abc=abc)

Retailers and analysts across North America confirm that the hottest selling gaming console this past weekend was the Xbox 360. (http://games-news.sympatico.msn.ca/Video_Games/BreakingNews/ContentPosting.htm?newsitemid=6874bba7-1c78-4f07-bff5-25738e90510a&feedname=TODD_BREAKINGNEWS&show=true&number=5&showbyline=true&abc=abc)

Lol, Bill also said they'd have a 10 million unit head start, I guess that was yet another smoke and mirrors lesson from MS.

Bill Gates told the world about six months ago that Halo 3 would be released day and date with the PlayStation 3, but that proved to be more of a smoke screen than a promise.

Xbox 360 HDMI rumor rides again (http://www.engadgethd.com/2006/11/21/xbox-360-hdmi-rumor-rides-again/)

Retailers and analysts across North America confirm that the hottest selling gaming console this past weekend was the Xbox 360. (http://games-news.sympatico.msn.ca/Video_Games/BreakingNews/ContentPosting.htm?newsitemid=6874bba7-1c78-4f07-bff5-25738e90510a&feedname=TODD_BREAKINGNEWS&show=true&number=5&showbyline=true&abc=abc)

Yes, it was good marketing to have tons of Xbox sitting around waiting to be the "consolation prize" when the Wii and PS3 came up short on numbers.

I doubt that it will that way for very long though.. ;)

b2b

We'll see. Meanwhile, here is a review from someone who should know what they are talking about... http://www.avrev.com/equip/playstation_3/

A very nice and thorough review. Sure, there are downsides they say, but at the end they provide this little nugget:


:)
(Enter HD DVD folks saying he is a Sony-bitch....)


Here's why you should pay over list for a PS3..... :)

http://www.gamespot.com/news/6162090.html?tag=latestnews;title;1

Here's why you should pay over list for a PS3..... :)

http://www.gamespot.com/news/6162090.html?tag=latestnews;title;1

Yea, but who is going to pay for the $20,000 worth of Rolaids you are going to need if you take them up on the offer ?? :eek:

:)

b2b

Well good to see that you are so sure about that. Personally though I think as time goes on many PS3 owners will try Blu-ray and that is in addition to the increasing number of PS3 owners. Not saying that the PS3 will make Blu-ray the winner of this format war, but I think it will be one of the reasons that Blu-ray will win.

How? Was it by buying the PS3 or was it by playing Blu-ray movies on it? Seriously g55555sim you should calm down and I only stated the obvious fact that any PS3 owner who wants to play a Blu-ray movie can do so.

what i am saying is MOST probably the launch sales of PS3 would not (or atleast have MINOR) influence the sales of BD movie, therefor they the spins of 400,000 BD players sold" is not appropriate. The sales of PS3 will affect the BD movie sales but not now. Not at launch.

Here's a new one for you. While they elaborate on the technicals, both good and bad, I thought this summarized it fairly well:
The PS3 is a system with no core message, and that is what keeps it from being elegant. Will it do great things in the future? I hope so, the possibility and potential are certainly there. For now, it's power looking for a mission statement.
I'm sure you can some how relate the reviewer back to sleeping with Bill Gates within 10 hops "Kevin Bacon style" thus invalidating the whole thing... ;)
Well here is a comment from way back when..
This is probably the most professionally put-together system I have seen. The only thing missing at the moment is a wide selection of packages, but I rather feel that the whole world and its grandmother will be frantically trying to fill that particular gap.

Guess what they were speaking of .... ;)

b2b

Hint: 5150

Yes, it was good marketing to have tons of Xbox sitting around waiting to be the "consolation prize" when the Wii and PS3 came up short on numbers.

I doubt that it will that way for very long though.. ;)

b2b

An anecdotal story....it may not be indicative of a larger trend...or it might.

A co-worker of mine has an 11 year old son who has a PS2. His son told him he wants an Xbox360 for Christmas because that's what his friends have. He told his son that he was getting a PS3 because he already has a bunch of PS2 games, and he didn't want them thrown away.

After seeing how hard it is to get a PS3 he decided there was no reason he couldn't hold on to the PS2 and add an Xbox360. He's also picking up the HD-DVD add on because he (Dad) wants to try out the new format.

I don't think this situation is unique. By 1/1/07 I expect the score to be in the neighborhood of

PS3 = 1,000,000
Xbox360 = 10,000,000
HD-DVD add on = ? (I have no guess because I don't know how many blue lasers Toshiba/Microsoft secured)

After that it's anyone guess....but the gating factor will continue to be how many blue lasers Sony and Toshiba can lay their hands on.

An anecdotal story....it may not be indicative of a larger trend...or it might.

A co-worker of mine has an 11 year old son who has a PS2. His son told him he wants an Xbox360 for Christmas because that's what his friends have. He told his son that he was getting a PS3 because he already has a bunch of PS2 games, and he didn't want them thrown away.

After seeing how hard it is to get a PS3 he decided there was no reason he couldn't hold on to the PS2 and add an Xbox360. He's also picking up the HD-DVD add on because he (Dad) wants to try out the new format.

I don't think this situation is unique. By 1/1/07 I expect the score to be in the neighborhood of

PS3 = 1,000,000
Xbox360 = 10,000,000
HD-DVD add on = ? (I have no guess because I don't know how many blue lasers Toshiba/Microsoft secured)

After that it's anyone guess....but the gating factor will continue to be how many blue lasers Sony and Toshiba can lay their hands on.

Sounds reasonable... there is no way that PS3 is going to make up the year head start that Xbox has overnight. But the 2007 holidays will be a lot different and so will 1/1/08.

Maybe dad will want to watch something other than Universal, Warner and Paramount a little later too... ;)

b2b

Well actually I pay more attention to the movie releases than what the players are selling for. I look at the new release thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=665702) and there are some pretty good movies, but nothing that really gives me a overpowering urge to spend a large sum of money to just oggle at wonder of HD.

Plus too, there is the matter of the aging front PJ that needs to be replaced. Maybe when Hollywood starts putting out new releases day and date (say the new James Bond) I will get all excited and what-not.

The PS3 is interesting because it does a lot more than a plain ole player does, so it is highest on my list. Standalone players... <$300 for BD.. HD-DVD, not really interested..

b2b
I will be replacing my PJ after the first of the year and feel the same way about not wanting to spend a large amount for a next gen HD player during a format war. Unlike you and many of the BD supporters here, I cannot easily dismiss the fact that nobody wins with the current situation in regards to studio support. I readily admit that there are BD titles that I like but I have no interest in a PS3 and I'm certainly not going to spend a grand on a BD player.

If studio support wasn't an issue, I'd have no problem dropping the coin on a fully featured stand alone HD player. Unfortunately though, that's not the case and is the reason why I'll just grab an add-on for well under $200 and wait for a decent universal player. I'd rather the extra $$$ go into my PJ upgrade.

Focus makes the difference....... (where have I heard that before ;) )

http://www.tgdaily.com/2006/11/21/rob_enderle_on_game_consoles/

Wrapping Up

The Microsoft Xbox 360 currently provides the richest overall gaming and media experience thanks largely to a robust platform and having a year launch lead. The Nintendo Wii provides the best individual, aerobic, gaming experience and will likely be the most popular with parents (and wives) as a result. The Sony PS3 simply doesn't feel finished, but, given the ability to download updates many of these shortcomings should be addressed next year. Once that happens the Sony should be able to better go toe to toe with the other players, for now the market (at least for the new generation of gaming systems) appears to belong to Microsoft at the high end and Nintendo at the low end.

If I were buying a system for myself or for someone into High Definition programming, I'd favor the Xbox, as a gift for kids I'd favor the Nintendo (assuming I could find it) and, with the Sony, I'd stick with the PSP (arguably the best portable player and both more affordable and more available this year) until the PS3 matures a little more and drops out of the Ebay nose bleed pricing phase.

After taking an extra year to deliver, shouldn't the PS3 blow the Xbox360 out of the water? Instead the expectation is that sometime next year it will be just as good as the Xbox360. The reviews keep piling up.

Shouldn't this thread be moved into the BR forum? It's degenerated into nothing more than a cheerleading thread for BR fanboiz...

I will be replacing my PJ after the first of the year and feel the same way about not wanting to spend a large amount for a next gen HD player during a format war. Unlike you and many of the BD supporters here, I cannot easily dismiss the fact that nobody wins with the current situation in regards to studio support. I readily admit that there are BD titles that I like but I have no interest in a PS3 and I'm certainly not going to spend a grand on a BD player.

If studio support wasn't an issue, I'd have no problem dropping the coin on a fully featured stand alone HD player. Unfortunately though, that's not the case and is the reason why I'll just grab an add-on for well under $200 and wait for a decent universal player. I'd rather the extra $$$ go into my PJ upgrade.

I learned a long time ago to put the money where it counts most.. in the display for visual and speakers for audio.

If you already have a Xbox buying a addon is a no-brainer as far as cost goes. But I don't have one, so it's the same $$ either way for me and BD is my first choice for HD on disc.

b2b

Wow! The mods are already out for the PS3.

http://www.therealps3grill.com/ps3grillpics.htm

I'll take mine medium rare. :p

Shouldn't this thread be moved into the BR forum? It's degenerated into nothing more than a cheerleading thread for BR fanboiz...

After reading your sig.....

Oh well... never mind... :rolleyes:

b2b

another puzzling review; i hope it is simply that the developers are coming up to speed on coding for the ps3 and they rectify that soon:

review from ign.com: http://ps3.ign.com/articles/746/746533p2.html

the mighty cell shouldn't be having such issues...

The cell isn't causing these issues. As you say, the developers need to get up to speed on the system. 1st gen titles usually has issues. 2nd gen titles should be more polished. Can we conclude that multi-platform titles are more prone to such issues? Not sure, but would not surprise me.

Focus makes the difference....... (where have I heard that before ;) )

http://www.tgdaily.com/2006/11/21/rob_enderle_on_game_consoles/

Wrapping Up

The Microsoft Xbox 360 currently provides the richest overall gaming and media experience thanks largely to a robust platform and having a year launch lead. The Nintendo Wii provides the best individual, aerobic, gaming experience and will likely be the most popular with parents (and wives) as a result. The Sony PS3 simply doesn't feel finished, but, given the ability to download updates many of these shortcomings should be addressed next year. Once that happens the Sony should be able to better go toe to toe with the other players, for now the market (at least for the new generation of gaming systems) appears to belong to Microsoft at the high end and Nintendo at the low end.

If I were buying a system for myself or for someone into High Definition programming, I'd favor the Xbox, as a gift for kids I'd favor the Nintendo (assuming I could find it) and, with the Sony, I'd stick with the PSP (arguably the best portable player and both more affordable and more available this year) until the PS3 matures a little more and drops out of the Ebay nose bleed pricing phase.

After taking an extra year to deliver, shouldn't the PS3 blow the Xbox360 out of the water? Instead the expectation is that sometime next year it will be just as good as the Xbox360. The reviews keep piling up.

Interesting. He says the system feels rushed, but hardly mentions anything on why. Oh well.

All new systems has initial issues. Among my friends, at least, we weren't expecting the PS3 to blow the 360 out of the water. The 360 is already on its 2nd/3rd gen titles, while we've only seen launch titles on the PS3. In a year or two, we do expect to see clear differences between the two, though. :)

Let the reviews pile up. As the firmware gets refined, volume increases, more games are released I'm sure there will be more happy faces around. No matter. For now, I'm not concerned. If a Time article convinces a gamer that the PS3 is not for him, good, then I have a better shot at getting one. :)

BTW, here is PCWorld's take on the PS3 as a Blu-ray player: http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,127892/article.html

Shouldn't this thread be moved into the BR forum? It's degenerated into nothing more than a cheerleading thread for BR fanboiz...
Imagine what would happen if the "superior" format ever puts out a superior title. :eek:

All new systems has initial issues. Among my friends, at least, we weren't expecting the PS3 to blow the 360 out of the water. The 360 is already on its 2nd/3rd gen titles, while we've only seen launch titles on the PS3. In a year or two, we do expect to see clear differences between the two, though. :)


From a developer's perspective...

http://www.hardcoreware.net/reviews/review-348-1.htm

Some interesting tidbits...

Game Selection: The XBOX 360 has a huge head start here. 1 year is an eternity in gaming. Almost all multi-platform developers have made the XBOX 360 their primary platform due to timing of release-to-market, this means the games will look and perform better on the 360. The PS3 versions will be ports of the 360 versions. (The opposite was true for XBOX 1 vs. PS2). The XBOX 360 is also far faster to develop for due to better development tools (massively popular Visual Studio .NET vs. proprietary, buggy PS3 compiler and debugger), better documentation, and easier architecture (3 general purpose CPU’s vs. 8 specialized processors that require DMA). Timing has also caused all next-gen middleware developers to make XBOX 360 their primary platform, and they will ‘add ps3 support’ as needed. This support will probably be inferior to the XBOX 360’s due to manpower and more importantly, demand. It’s this catch-22 now that will continue to drive the 360 forward and hold PS3 back.

Mind you that is only for titles that are cross platform. It's up to the PS3 exclusives to blow the Xbox360 out of the water.

Cheers...
Duy-Khang Hoang

the mighty cell shouldn't be having such issues...I would point out that a PS3 launch game, which is a port from the Xbox 360, is not a good way to judge how well the CELL works.


And if there is any truth to this table,Before you jump to much on that iSuppli estimate for the PS3 I would point out that they also estimated a $674 BOM for the HD-A1 (http://www.isuppli.com/marketwatch/default.asp?id=348).


Xbox 360 HDMI rumor rides again (http://www.engadgethd.com/2006/11/21/xbox-360-hdmi-rumor-rides-again/)Those hoping for an Xbox 360 HDMI cable must be getting desperate since that is pretty weak even for a rumor. That a HDMI cable is included with a supposed Xbox 360/Lost Bundle combination based on a single photograph doesn't prove much in my opinion.


Shouldn't this thread be moved into the BR forum? It's degenerated into nothing more than a cheerleading thread for BR fanboiz...Besides the obvious hypocrisy of saying this while having a signature of "HD-DVD: Pretty self explanatory. Blu-Ray: Didn't one of those kill the Crocodile Hunter? " there is also the fact that your post was nothing but a bash at the Blu-ray supporters posting here.

From a developer's perspective...

http://www.hardcoreware.net/reviews/review-348-1.htm

Some interesting tidbits...

Game Selection: The XBOX 360 has a huge head start here. 1 year is an eternity in gaming. Almost all multi-platform developers have made the XBOX 360 their primary platform due to timing of release-to-market, this means the games will look and perform better on the 360. The PS3 versions will be ports of the 360 versions. (The opposite was true for XBOX 1 vs. PS2). The XBOX 360 is also far faster to develop for due to better development tools (massively popular Visual Studio .NET vs. proprietary, buggy PS3 compiler and debugger), better documentation, and easier architecture (3 general purpose CPU’s vs. 8 specialized processors that require DMA). Timing has also caused all next-gen middleware developers to make XBOX 360 their primary platform, and they will ‘add ps3 support’ as needed. This support will probably be inferior to the XBOX 360’s due to manpower and more importantly, demand. It’s this catch-22 now that will continue to drive the 360 forward and hold PS3 back.

Mind you that is only for titles that are cross platform. It's up to the PS3 exclusives to blow the Xbox360 out of the water.

Cheers...
Duy-Khang Hoang

Sounds like the "massively popular" of the MS tools should be changed to "massively proprietary" MS tool set..
Microsoft .NET is the Microsoft strategy for connecting systems, information, and devices through Web services so people can collaborate and communicate more effectively.

Just like everything about MS, they want to suck the world into their proprietary "strategy" of their OS and tools to build applications.

b2b

LOL. Why dont you just come out and say it b2b. The article writer is in Microsoft's backpocket. He must be sleeping with Bill Gates to say something like that. :)

Microsoft shares get lift from upgrade (http://money.cnn.com/2006/11/20/technology/microsoft_stock.reut/?postversion=2006112011)
Credit Suisse raised its rating on Microsoft Corp. to "outperform" from "neutral," saying the stock could appreciate nearly 20 percent from current levels due to the company's strengthening market position in digital entertainment, among other reasons.
I guess the analysts haven't been reading the generally woeful reviews of Microsoft's Zune. Take this (http://www.thetravelinsider.info/mp3/zune.htm) one, for instance, which summary reads as follows:
It is surprising and disappointing that Microsoft was not able to release a better thought out product. Sure, it is a first generation product, but Microsoft has the luxury of being able to study the evolution, successes and issues with Apple's iPod, and to also copy the best ideas of the various sundry other iPod competitors.

Instead, they release a single model unit (almost all other music player manufacturers have a model range with a series of different capacities available) that is woefully too small for the one function it may be better at than the iPod - playing video, and which also has too short a battery life, but in a form factor larger (and more crudely manufactured) than the comparable iPod, which is a compact elegant work of art.

A poorly thought out user interface, buggy PC program and lack of content available for purchase all detract further from this unit.

Today, there is no reason at all to choose a Zune over an iPod, and many reasons to prefer the iPod. Although many industry commentators seem to be excusing their present disappointment with the Zune by predicting it will get better in the future, the reality today is that the Zune is simply not nearly as good as Apple's iPod, and a company with the size and resource of Microsoft should be panned not praised for such an amateurish product.

Not recommended.
I hope Amir, Ben et al get a big Christmas bonus. They deserve it.According to news reports (http://www.thestreet.com/_dm/newsanalysis/techsoftware/10306815.html) three months ago:
Microsoft on Thursday handed out performance bonuses of restricted stock worth nearly $1 billion to roughly 900 senior executives.That comes out to an average of over $1M/executive! :eek: Seems like more-than-fair compensation even if HD-DVD does fail in spite of MSFT's best efforts!

I would point out that a PS3 launch game, which is a port from the Xbox 360, is not a good way to judge how well the CELL works.


Here goes the Blu-ray mantra all over again:

"wait until (insert excuse here)"

I guess the analysts haven't been reading the generally woeful reviews of Microsoft's Zune.

How is a Zune review even remotely related to this forum?

LOL. Why dont you just come out and say it b2b. The article writer is in Microsoft's backpocket. He must be sleeping with Bill Gates to say something like that. :)
Well there is the XBox Game ad right in the middle of the article..
http://www.hardcoreware.net/image.php?src=5350&ts=1164033279

Plus if he hates PS3 so bad why is he developing games for it ???
I thought it would be a good idea to ask my friend, who is a lead programmer for a large gaming company that produces games for both PS3 and XBOX 360.

The "anonymous friend" again... Funny how Mr. Anonymous is so universally a PS3 basher.. ;)

b2b

Sounds like the "massively popular" of the MS tools should be changed to "massively proprietary" MS tool set..

Just like everything about MS, they want to suck the world into their proprietary "strategy" of their OS and tools to build applications.


I would be interested in which companies meet your standard for creating open-source strategies around Operating Systems and tools to build applications.

After taking an extra year to deliver, shouldn't the PS3 blow the Xbox360 out of the water? Instead the expectation is that sometime next year it will be just as good as the Xbox360. The reviews keep piling up.Most reviews have also noted that the titles we see today pale in comparison to what we're likely to see once developers have gained some experience with the system. Clearly the PS3 has far more to work with: far higher disc capacity, six-access controllers, mandatory hard drive, phenomenal graphics hardware, open platform. I'm confident by the time production catches up to demand the quality of titles will improve to the point that there will be a clear difference in system capability versus the Xbox 360.

I would be interested in which companies meet your standard for creating open-source strategies around Operating Systems and tools to build applications.

... ;)

never mind... ;)

b2b

That would be preferable to bending over to find out what the MS strategy is... ;)

b2b

Touché :D

Most reviews have also noted that the titles we see today pale in comparison to what we're likely to see once developers have gained some experience with the system. Clearly the PS3 has far more to work with: far higher disc capacity, six-access controllers, mandatory hard drive, phenomenal graphics hardware, open platform. I'm confident by the time production catches up to demand the quality of titles will improve to the point that there will be a clear difference in system capability versus the Xbox 360.

It's all about focus and execution. Can anyone tell me why the $249 Wii can launch to great reviews (and have my wife telling me she's interested in it) and why the most expensive game console ever (that was delayed a year) can't?

Who's interest does it serve to make excuses for Sony on this? and is anyone buying the line about this is the console for Sony for the next 10 years as well? I see too much BS and not enough delivery out of Sony.