After getting my chance to mess around with the PS3 today, I stumbled upon a very unfortunate discovery.

PS3's HDMI out only supports 480p, 720p, 1080i and 1080p. It cannot output a 480i signal from HDMI. But all PS1 and most PS2 games are only 480i . . . so what does this mean?

Basically, the PS3 performs deinterlacing on the 480i signals from PS1/PS2 games so that it can output via the minimum 480p through HDMI. However, it does a very poor job of deinterlacing! Not only are there severe combing artifacts, but there is also a built in 2-3 frame lag, the same lag you would feel if you were to feed a 480i signal straight to your HDTV.

Currently, the only way to avoid the lag is by outputting to an external scaler which can properly (and quickly) deinterlace the 480i signal. However, since the PS3 forces 480p on PS1/PS2 games through HDMI, there is a built-in input lag which affects all games and cannot be avoided. That means that the PS3 owners who paid large amounts of money for the iScan VP series will not be able to play PS1/PS2 games lag-free via HDMI, even with the "Game Mode" enabled.

The PS1/PS2 games DO output 480i with Composite, S-Video, and Component cables. However, with Component cables as you know, the Blu-ray constraint token prevents you from getting a 1080p signal. Additionally, most HDTVs can't even accept 1080p via Component.

This means that you'll lose 1080p if you go through Component, but if you use HDMI all PS1/PS2 games will have built-in input lag.

No 1080i support was one thing, but I'm in a state of utter disbelief that the PS3 cannot properly output a video signal via Component nor HDMI. Since the PS3 cannot output both a Component and HDMI signal simultaneously, the only way to work around this issue currently is to tediously change output modes in the system settings every time you want to play a Blu-ray movie or PS1/PS2 game. This is completely unacceptable and should be addressed immediately.

There are many possible fixes for this problem that could be implemented in a future firmware. Here are just a few of the ways that Sony could fix this issue:

1) 480i output could be allowed via HDMI so that users could properly deinterlace PS1/PS2 titles with seperate hardware.
2) There could be an option to automatically switch to the AV Multiout (Component) for PS1/PS2 games, while using HDMI output for other material.

or, the best solution,

3) Actually use a decent deinterlacing algorithm on PS1/PS2 titles, so that they don't lag and suffer from terrible combing artifacts.

Now, while #3 would be the best solution, it's the solution I see the least likely for Sony to actually implement because it would take actual work. #1 and #2 are simple workarounds that could be applied, but they still don't do anything about the real problem.

Once this gets out enough, though, I hope that Sony will realize the critical importance of this issue and quickly implement #1 or #2 in the next firmware update while diligently working on #3.

If you are unsatisfied with this as I am, please visit

http://www.us.playstation.com/Corporate/ContactUs/ConsumerServices and tell Sony that this is unacceptable performance. The consumer's voice must be heard if we expect this issue to be dealt with.

Nice post if accurate. I hope Sony has some plan and a means for dealing with these kinds of issues.

I'd prefer to output 480i and let the TV do the de-interlacing, etc. At the very least I could go to Game Mode like I do with the PS2. Option 2 being a variant giving endusers the most control, depending on their equipment, could be the best option but probably the least likely.

I'm imagining once they get the software emulation perfected (and decide to pull the EE/GC chip from future PS3 builds), there will be a firmware update to address the compatibility issues.

I'd prefer to output 480i and let the TV do the de-interlacing, etc. At the very least I could go to Game Mode like I do with the PS2. Option 2 being a variant giving endusers the most control, depending on their equipment, could be the best option but probably the least likely.

I'm imagining once they get the software emulation perfected (and decide to pull the EE/GC chip from future PS3 builds), there will be a firmware update to address the compatibility issues.

I'm sure that's the eventual plan since there are people working specifically on PS2 emulation for Sony. Maybe that's just the easiest way to add scaling capabilities.

For now, I think that simply allowing 480i output via HDMI would be an acceptable (and the most realistic) workaround.

i think i have a solution..but this is seriously just something that popped up in my head while reading the post..

it may be a hassle..but why not switch to the composite cables that came in the box? it's kind of a drag to switch and i myself haven't tried it..but it might take away the lag from ps1/ps2 games..

i think i have a solution..but this is seriously just something that popped up in my head while reading the post..

it may be a hassle..but why not switch to the composite cables that came in the box? it's kind of a drag to switch and i myself haven't tried it..but it might take away the lag from ps1/ps2 games..


The PS1/PS2 games DO output 480i with Composite, S-Video, and Component cables. However, with Component cables as you know, the Blu-ray constraint token prevents you from getting a 1080p signal. Additionally, most HDTVs can't even accept 1080p via Component.

This means that you'll lose 1080p if you go through Component, but if you use HDMI all PS1/PS2 games will have built-in input lag.

.

well i know the composite cables wont give you anything good for blu-ray..but the reason i said it would be a hassle is because i thought by reading my post you would automatically assume to switch back to hdmi when you were done playing whatever ps1/ps2 game you were playing. i dunno..i gave my 2 cents..sorry if i'm wrong

3) Actually use a decent deinterlacing algorithm on PS1/PS2 titles, so that they don't lag and suffer from terrible combing artifacts.[/B]

Now, while #3 would be the best solution, it's the solution I see the least likely for Sony to actually implement because it would take actual work. #1 and #2 are simple workarounds that could be applied, but they still don't do anything about the real problem.

Once this gets out enough, though, I hope that Sony will realize the critical importance of this issue and quickly implement #1 or #2 in the next firmware update while diligently working on #3.



I thought the lag was because of the wireless controllers but I think you've nailed it.

A good deinterlacing algorithm shouldn't be so hard to develop. Sony should just pay off Xploder and "borrow" the code from the Xploder HDTV disc as a starting point. When the Xploder disc actually works its pretty amazing, even if its only at 480p. I'm sure Sony, with its vastly greater knowledge of the PS2/3 hardware could make the software even better and make it so 720p and 1080i upscaling doesn't shrink the screen

What happens if you play one of the (handful of) 480i-only Xbox games in BC mode on the 360, and output it as 480p? Is the lag present? I don't have one of the 480i games.

Regarding having the TV scale it, aren't most if not all 1080p TVs adding at least 2-3 frames of lag anyway? And we certainly know that many 720p DLPs do. I'd prefer to see them fix the internal scaling, and do it fast and with a minimum of objectionable artifacts.

What happens if you play one of the (handful of) 480i-only Xbox games in BC mode on the 360, and output it as 480p? Is the lag present? I don't have one of the 480i games.
That's a very good question. Actually, though, I don't think ANY of the 480i-only Xbox 1 games are backwards compatible on the 360! Maybe you're on to something.

Regarding having the TV scale it, aren't most if not all 1080p TVs adding at least 2-3 frames of lag anyway? And we certainly know that many 720p DLPs do. I'd prefer to see them fix the internal scaling, and do it fast and with a minimum of objectionable artifacts.
Yes, they do add 2-3 frames, but typically only on 480i sources. Most 1080p TVs (apart from Samsung DLPs and maybe some of the other DLPs) can scale a 480p (or better) signal to 1080p signal in less than one frame with no noticeable lag. It's only when you add a ton of image enhancing that the delay jumps to 2+ frames (which is why the Samsungs lag no matter what).

Of course, a scaler inside the PS3 itself would be preferable (would be nice to get 1080p from the PS2 game rather than 480p) but I really don't think there would be a big difference in performance. 480p is good enough for most HDTVs for a lag-free, artifact-free image.

Adding 480i as an output option for HDMI assumes the HDMI output on the PS3 supports 480i in hardware. It might not just be a simple software fix.

Here is one idea:

The PS3 can output video and audio from BOTH the HDMI and the standard composite/component ports at the same time. So you could buy the component cables (or s-video or use standard) and connect it with the analog audio to one of your inputs. When you are going to play a 480i game, switch it to the composite input.

I have not personally played a game this way, but I have tested the video/audio output and it works fine.

Here is one idea:

The PS3 can output video and audio from BOTH the HDMI and the standard composite/component ports at the same time. So you could buy the component cables (or s-video or use standard) and connect it with the analog audio to one of your inputs. When you are going to play a 480i game, switch it to the composite input.

I have not personally played a game this way, but I have tested the video/audio output and it works fine.

Are you sure you can do it like this? I tried this over the weekend at a friend's place and it seemed like you had to actually change the video settings in the XMB before it would switch over. This would be a reasonable workaround if it actually works.

I don't have any PS2 or PS1 games with me to test this out. But I will test it here in a few minutes and post up results. You may be right about having to change some video settings, I'm unsure of that right now.

I do know for sure that it will send the signal from both ports at the same time because that's how I have to hook it to my parents TV (I'm home visiting) through HDMI-DVI and then use the red/white cables for audio.

I don't have any PS2 or PS1 games with me to test this out. But I will test it here in a few minutes and post up results. You may be right about having to change some video settings, I'm unsure of that right now.

I do know for sure that it will send the signal from both ports at the same time because that's how I have to hook it to my parents TV (I'm home visiting) through HDMI-DVI and then use the red/white cables for audio.

That makes sense. Of course you can output audio through the analog cables, but I'm pretty sure you have to change the video settings every time you want to switch between the AV MULTI out and the HDMI out. This is far too tedious to do every time you want to play a PS1/PS2 game which is why Sony needs to patch the firmware.

Yes, they do add 2-3 frames, but typically only on 480i sources.

Some SXRD estimates, using the Halo 2 'train' tests, from another thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8154144):


Sony SXRD A2000 Timings
A2000 480i DRC on Game Mode off: 45ms
A2000 480i Game Mode on: 21ms
A2000 480p: 45ms
A2000 720p: 42ms
A2000 1080i Game Mode off: 62ms
A2000 1080i Game Mode on: 39ms


Most 1080p TVs (apart from Samsung DLPs and maybe some of the other DLPs) can scale a 480p (or better) signal to 1080p signal in less than one frame with no noticeable lag. It's only when you add a ton of image enhancing that the delay jumps to 2+ frames (which is why the Samsungs lag no matter what).

I think a big part of the lag issue with single-chip DLP is the need to calculate the temporal dither. Just my theory.

Some SXRD estimates, using the Halo 2 'train' tests, from another thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8154144):


Sony SXRD A2000 Timings
A2000 480i DRC on Game Mode off: 45ms
A2000 480i Game Mode on: 21ms
A2000 480p: 45ms
A2000 720p: 42ms
A2000 1080i Game Mode off: 62ms
A2000 1080i Game Mode on: 39ms




I think a big part of the lag issue with single-chip DLP is the need to calculate the temporal dither. Just my theory.

Interesting. Thanks for your input!

Until there is a true solution from Sony I will just continue to have my PS2 readily available.

So it seems like the consensus is that the lag is only present if you use HDMI. (Has everyone confirmed the lag, or is it TV dependant?) With component, there is no lag, correct? I don't have a 1080p TV, so I don't mind using component--I don't think I would lose much.

As far as bad picture quality: People say it looks bad on both HDMI and component. But is it better with component?

Anyone had any good/decent experiences with PS2 playback on a PS3? I plan to play a bunch of PS2 games I never had a chance to play, and am very disappointed by this news.

I'm using the HDMI and I have no lag whatsoever on anything.

With 4:3 games, I simply set my TV to zoom and it's all good and well for PS2 games.

I'm playing Final Fantasy 12 and RAW vs. Smackdown 2007 right now with ne'er a glitch or problem of any kind.

Believe me: If there were any lag, I'd be getting toasted in the wrestling game and it would be unmistakeable. I'm pretty sensitive to that sort of thing.

At present, you cannot do 480i over HDMI. Maybe that's something for a future firmware fix. That could really make this box a darling transport of sorts for a lot of people.

I'm using the HDMI and I have no lag whatsoever on anything.

With 4:3 games, I simply set my TV to zoom and it's all good and well for PS2 games.

I'm playing Final Fantasy 12 and RAW vs. Smackdown 2007 right now with ne'er a glitch or problem of any kind.

Believe me: If there were any lag, I'd be getting toasted in the wrestling game and it would be unmistakeable. I'm pretty sensitive to that sort of thing.

At present, you cannot do 480i over HDMI. Maybe that's something for a future firmware fix. That could really make this box a darling transport of sorts for a lot of people.

Thanks for the reply. Hope you don't mind if I ask a few additional questions:

- In an effort to try and pin down why you don't have any problems, what kind of TV do you use? Is your TV somehow better at dealing with the 480p over HDMI than the original poster's TV?

- You zoom on 4:3 games? Doesn't that cut off the top and bottom of the game, which often contains important info? (That is how zoom works on my TV.)

I have zero lag playing PS2 gameson my PS3 using HDMI.. My internal setting for the PS3 is 720p however it probably switches to 480p once I play the PS2 game. However at least with Tekken 5 it played great with no lag...I even set the game to 16:9 internally in the games settings and it looked great..

With 4:3 games, I simply set my TV to zoom

Ummmm.... why?

I'm using the HDMI and I have no lag whatsoever on anything.

With 4:3 games, I simply set my TV to zoom and it's all good and well for PS2 games.

I'm playing Final Fantasy 12 and RAW vs. Smackdown 2007 right now with ne'er a glitch or problem of any kind.

Believe me: If there were any lag, I'd be getting toasted in the wrestling game and it would be unmistakeable. I'm pretty sensitive to that sort of thing.

At present, you cannot do 480i over HDMI. Maybe that's something for a future firmware fix. That could really make this box a darling transport of sorts for a lot of people.
Don't mean to be a jerk, but if you claim to have no lag, you are simply incapable of feeling it. 3 frames isn't a lot of lag (about 50 or 60 ms) so you might not notice it until you complete a more accurate test. Plop in Guitar Hero 2 and you will be able to measure it very easily via the HDTV Calibration menu under video options. Nobody is trying to fool you--it happens to anyone, on any HDTV. See for yourself.

Wrestling games are different from typical fighting games in that all the moves have massive startup times, so that's a bad example anyway.


I have zero lag playing PS2 gameson my PS3 using HDMI.. My internal setting for the PS3 is 720p however it probably switches to 480p once I play the PS2 game. However at least with Tekken 5 it played great with no lag...I even set the game to 16:9 internally in the games settings and it looked great..
The lag will disappear if you enable 480p in the video options for Tekken 5. Like I said already, if it's a PS2 game with native 480p support AND you enable it within the game, you will bypass the PS3's poor deinterlacing and be playing lag-free.


- In an effort to try and pin down why you don't have any problems, what kind of TV do you use? Is your TV somehow better at dealing with the 480p over HDMI than the original poster's TV?

I have tested on several different HDTVs. The easiest way to see is with Guitar Hero 2, since you can easily enable or disable the game's native progressive scan. With the progressive scan mode unchecked, the PS3 deinterlaces the signal to 480p and the lag is around 50-60ms. With the progressive mode checked, the lag drops between 0-10ms (which is the response time 480p is supposed to have via HDMI).

Thanks for the reply. Hope you don't mind if I ask a few additional questions:

- In an effort to try and pin down why you don't have any problems, what kind of TV do you use? Is your TV somehow better at dealing with the 480p over HDMI than the original poster's TV?

A CRT tube. The Sony KD34XBR960.

It's possible my TV handles it better, yes.



- You zoom on 4:3 games? Doesn't that cut off the top and bottom of the game, which often contains important info? (That is how zoom works on my TV.)

It depends on the game and this particular TV. Kind of a personal preference of mine with certain games.

Yeah, you're right. I'm lying and I'm accusing everyone who's complaining of this problem of lying as well.

No need to flame. I have done the tests and confirmed that the lag exists, there is simply no way you can deny it. Please test it and see for yourself, I'm not trying to hide anything from you.

No need to flame. I have done the tests and confirmed that the lag exists, there is simply no way you can deny it. Please test it and see for yourself, I'm not trying to hide anything from you.

I don't currently own Guitar Hero 2. I do own Avia. What kind of test should I run?

FWIW, I'm not saying the lag problem doesn't exist, I'm simply saying that I personally do not have, or more specifically, perceive one.

I don't currently own Guitar Hero 2. I do own Avia. What kind of test should I run?

I have Avia as well, but as I think you know Avia is just a typical DVD with no way to test input lag. Avia was made before there was an HDTV lag problem, let alone HDTVs in many homes.

GH2 is the first video game that allows the end-user to test for input lag, which is why it's such a big deal. Before this game, you would have just had to take my word for it. If Blockbuster in your area carries it, try renting it. If all else fails and you have no interest in purchasing GH2, I will personally mail you my copy to borrow so that you can test it out and post your results.


FWIW, I'm not saying the lag problem doesn't exist, I'm simply saying that I personally do not have, or more specifically, perceive one.

Thanks for clarifying. Like I said, not all gamers can immediately notice a 50ms lag. It's about the same amount of lag you'll experience on most HDTVs when you run 480i material through them. Just because you don't feel it doesn't mean that other people won't, though. The lag is confirmed and it is definitely an issue for games that require frame-specific timing, especially fighting and rhythm games. Telling other users that there is no lag will just lead to confusion; we have a common goal and that is for Sony to fix the problem via a firmware update. I appreciate your understanding.

I have Avia as well, but as I think you know Avia is just a typical DVD with no way to test input lag. Avia was made before there was an HDTV lag problem, let alone HDTVs in many homes.

GH2 is the first video game that allows the end-user to test for input lag, which is why it's such a big deal. Before this game, you would have just had to take my word for it. If Blockbuster in your area carries it, try renting it. If all else fails and you have no interest in purchasing GH2, I will personally mail you my copy to borrow so that you can test it out and post your results.


LOL, that's not necessary. Sorry about the earlier, snippy response.

I'll see if I can rent that thing pretty soon.

In the meantime: Any work arounds for this lag? Should we just use the component cables for PS2 and PS1 gaming?

In the meantime: Any work arounds for this lag? Should we just use the component cables for PS2 and PS1 gaming?

If the game natively supports 480p, you can enable that in the options or by holding X + Triangle on startup and play lag-free via HDMI (or Component, for that matter).

If it doesn't, Component cables are the best workaround. Keep in mind that most HDTVs lag on 480i material also, so unless you have an external scaler you will probably experience lag on 480i-only games either way. The PS3 lag seems to be a bit worse than my HDTV's though, so I would just stick to Component if you're not using a scaler.

What are some good HDTV scalers?

Via component cables the only options that are available are, 480p, 1080i, 720p, 1080p.
unless you select "custom" and then choose ntsc standard...then it will output 480i.

If you set your ps3 to 720p. your BD's will still output 1080i and your ps2 games will get upconverted to 480p.

However I think ps2 games that are interlaced (480i) look far better output 480i than being "upconverted" by the player. Playing marvel vs. capcom 2 again now reveals much better detail than even my previous test. upscaling softens the picture noticeably. So when in the custom settings area I have de-selected 480p and all is good.

except, some titles like Resident Evil 4 have this weird anomoly that take place, stair stepping on lettering, and strange blockiness artifacting. It's as though the game was encoded in some different format. However doing the triangle&X during start up cures this odd effect. I'll post pics later of the differences.

Via component cables the only options that are available are, 480p, 1080i, 720p, 1080p.
unless you select "custom" and then choose ntsc standard...then it will output 480i.

If you set your ps3 to 720p. your BD's will still output 1080i and your ps2 games will get upconverted to 480p.

Wow! Fantastic tip!! This really worked well for me; my Pioneer Elite plasma has a great scaler (Faroudja chip) which is 1000% better than the lame SW in the PS3.

IMHO, Sony totally blew the scaling design issue. I want to be able to directly specify which conversions I want done (or not) in the PS3. One example of the lameness of the design is that my 1080i HDV videos get rescaled to 720p! Doh!! But I have to leave 720p on for games, of course. A simple and sufficient design would be to have one set of checkboxes for each (internal) resolution, selecting "leave as is" or "upscale".

Whats up fubarduck, nice to see a fellow fighting game fanatic here. :)

I was playing Tekken 5 on my PS3 via HDMI. Enabled progressive scan... etc. Played... noticed the HUGE lag. Now Tekken 5 is natively 480i. I'm using an HDMI cable and my PS3 is set on 1080P as default. What would be the easiest way to enable lag free play on my fighting games?

The main ones I'll be playing would be Tekken 5 and Super Turbo from Capcom Classics Collection: Vol. 2...

Should I have the HDMI cable hooked up as well as the component cable(for my PS2/PS1 games)? Just switch the settings on the XMB prior to loading up a game?

Any feedback would be appreciated. :)

Wow! Fantastic tip!! This really worked well for me; my Pioneer Elite plasma has a great scaler (Faroudja chip) which is 1000% better than the lame SW in the PS3.

IMHO, Sony totally blew the scaling design issue. I want to be able to directly specify which conversions I want done (or not) in the PS3. One example of the lameness of the design is that my 1080i HDV videos get rescaled to 720p! Doh!! But I have to leave 720p on for games, of course. A simple and sufficient design would be to have one set of checkboxes for each (internal) resolution, selecting "leave as is" or "upscale".

I'm not an expert, but here are my results:

When I go into custom settings at select only NTSC Standard, it does appear slightly less jagged, but also more blurry in general. When I select NTSC as well as 720p, it might also appear just a little better. When I select NTSC and 1080i, I think it looks just as if I had chosen only 1080i. If I choose NTSC Standard, 720p and 1080i, the 720p takes over.

At all times, my LCD displays that it is receiving a 480i signal.

Whats up fubarduck, nice to see a fellow fighting game fanatic here. :)

I was playing Tekken 5 on my PS3 via HDMI. Enabled progressive scan... etc. Played... noticed the HUGE lag. Now Tekken 5 is natively 480i. I'm using an HDMI cable and my PS3 is set on 1080P as default. What would be the easiest way to enable lag free play on my fighting games?

The main ones I'll be playing would be Tekken 5 and Super Turbo from Capcom Classics Collection: Vol. 2...

Should I have the HDMI cable hooked up as well as the component cable(for my PS2/PS1 games)? Just switch the settings on the XMB prior to loading up a game?

Any feedback would be appreciated. :)

You actually shouldn't be experiencing any lag from the PS3 itself if the game has an internal option with which to enable the 480p. The conditions for the lag coming from the PS3 seem to be:

1) Using HDMI
2) No 480p option in the game.

Unfortunately, if you're lagging with Tekken 5 on HDMI (with 480p enabled in options) your HDTV probably cannot handle a 480p signal quickly enough (many can, but some can't). The only really good way to test this is with Guitar Hero II, since you can easily enable or disable the Progressive Scan option in-game.

Capcom Classics 2, on the other hand, I'm going to assume doesn't have that option internally, so what will happen is the PS3 will force it to 480p since the HDMI output currently doesn't support 480i output; this is when the lag becomes noticeable from the PS3 itself.

For this game (and all other 480i games), it would help to change to Component or S-Video output from the XMB, and then either enabling the "Game Mode" available on your HDTV OR going through an external video scaler to eliminate the lag.

I have not noticed lag with any PS2 game I have played on PS3 (connected with HDMI out to a 720p native LCD and also a 1080i RPCRT). I tried some timing critical games such as Street Fighter Collection and was able to play it with no problem.

I know some televisions introduce lag....particular some DLP models had this problem which I remember reading about here on AVS.

I have not noticed lag with any PS2 game I have played on PS3 (connected with HDMI out to a 720p native LCD and also a 1080i RPCRT). I tried some timing critical games such as Street Fighter Collection and was able to play it with no problem.

I know some televisions introduce lag....particular some DLP models had this problem which I remember reading about here on AVS.

There is lag. You cannot feel it. With the conditions you stated above, the PS3 (NOT your HDTV) is causing a 2 to 3 frame lag. It's about 50 milliseconds. 50 milliseconds is hard for an unexperienced Street Fighter player to feel, but the experts can feel it.

Insert Guitar Hero II and see the numbers for yourself.

It must be frustrating to deal w/ different people over and over saying "but MY HDTV doesn't lag w/ 480i sources!"

I saw the post about Capcom Classics 2 -- surprisingly it does support progressive scan for all its games. Now if only they'd re-release Third Strike w/ 480p.

I think a big part of the lag issue with single-chip DLP is the need to calculate the temporal dither. Just my theory.

My Mitsubishi WD-52525 DLP is lag-free.

Samsung just can't seem to get it right, though.

Calculating the amount of time that a pixel has to spend on each color for a given frame of video is no more complex than calculating the level of each color that a given pixel has for an LCD.

Just wanted to confirm that I notice the very slight lag when using Burnout 3 (without progressive scan enabled). It was easiest to tell in menus, as moving up and down you can easily see the brief delay. Thanks for finding and documenting this! I hope it gets fixed soon.

FYI, I'm running a Sanyo-Z4 front projector over HDMI.

I am not a tech guru and really do not know much about this stuff, but I do have few question if someone will be kind to answer them if they really know this stuff.

I read that the PS3 does not have a "upscaling chip" unlike the xbox360 which does. Thats why original xbox games (like Halo or Halo 2) are upscaled to 720p or even 1080i on HDTVs.

1) Will the PS3 ever be able to upscale PS2 games with out this "upscaling chip"? (ie through software emulation?)

2) If not, can this chip be added to the system via a USB port?

3) Are there other options that Sony can do to fix this issue that I missed?

Thanking you in advance for your replies

I know this is an old thread, but I'm wondering whether the newer firmware updates have eliminated the lag in the PS3s own deinterlacing or if you can output 480i natively from PS2 titles now? I haven't been able to find a clear answer since most PS3 threads are swimming with rabid fanBOYS who don't care about the technical side of things anyways.

I read that the PS3 does not have a "upscaling chip" unlike the xbox360 which does. Thats why original xbox games (like Halo or Halo 2) are upscaled to 720p or even 1080i on HDTVs.


From what I've read, the Xbox360 does have an upscale chip as you have said... however it does not work unless you use VGA connection. With component the upscaler is disabled. Supposedly the reason for this is that it has something to do with copyright issues with upconverting over component.

(Correct me if I'm wrong.)

From what I've read, the Xbox360 does have an upscale chip as you have said... however it does not work unless you use VGA connection. With component the upscaler is disabled. Supposedly the reason for this is that it has something to do with copyright issues with upconverting over component.

(Correct me if I'm wrong.)

The 360 can only upscale DVDs over VGA.

The 360 can scale everything else over any output (that supports the desired resolution).

Good to know! I was kind of thinking on getting a vga cable for my xbox360... now I won't bother. :)

Cant you just have both component and HDMI plugged into the PS3 and ONLY use component when you are playing a 480i game? I was told that you can have both component and HDMI plugged into the PS3 at the same time and switch between them in the menu. Is this not true?

LCDs are def better than DLP, My PS2 games were god awful on a Sammy DLP and any lag is barely noticeable at all on my Westighouse 37w3. With the Sammy I literally stopped playing my PS2 games, they werent playable, youd press X to swing the bat in mlb and the ball would be by you.

LCDs are def better than DLP, My PS2 games were god awful on a Sammy DLP and any lag is barely noticeable at all on my Westighouse 37w3. With the Sammy I literally stopped playing my PS2 games, they werent playable, youd press X to swing the bat in mlb and the ball would be by you.

No, LCDs are better than some DLPs. For instance, a number of older Samsung DLPs had huge lag. It wasn't actually due to them being DLP televisions. It was due to the lengthy processing that the TV did on the video before displaying it.

But my Mitsubishi WD-52525 HD2+ DLP has no discernable lag. Most DLPs don't have lag.

This still doesn't answer the question whether the PS3s built in deinterlacer is still causing noticeable delay. Can someone with a PS3 and Guitar Hero 2 test it out?

The final boss sequences on GOWII were pretty tough because of the timed button presses. I never played the game on a PS2, only on my PS3. Unfortunately I have all my av stuff covered because I'm having a wall torn out this week.

This still doesn't answer the question whether the PS3s built in deinterlacer is still causing noticeable delay. Can someone with a PS3 and Guitar Hero 2 test it out?

The most recent firmware as of right now still causes deinterlacing delay. With Progressive Scan enabled in GH2, the delay is 0ms. With Progressive Scan disabled in GH2 (letting the PS3 perform deinterlacing) the delay is 30-40ms.

The delay is about 2 frames. And no, you still cannot output 480i from the PS3 with HDMI. You can use Component and output 480i by disabling 480p, but of course you lose 1080p Blu-ray output when using Component. It's still a lose/lose situation.

Ok, I have a question about the settings on PS3 when pleaying 480p capable PS2 games, here I go..

As far as I undertood by some of the messages posted here, if you play a PS2 game that can be displayed at 480p (by pressing triangle and X after start up) on a PS3 via HDMI, the lag won't be serious because by allowing 480p within the game (X and triangle) you're bypassing the forced 480p that PS3/HDMI would cause (and the serious lag), now the question is, what's the display option that the PS3 needs to be set?

Anyone know if this issue has been corrected yet in firmware 1.90?

I was thinking of picking up Frequency and Amplitude but it seems lag might be a problem.

i've been playing "star ocean till the end of time" on the ps3. i first played it back in 04 on the ps2 and really enjoyed it then. this time around the ps3 keeps locking up during fights, and as a new "area" is loading. i have the ps3 hooked up via hdmi. i don't know if this is has anything to do with the lag or not. but it really does suck when you've played for 40 mins. and then you have to start over because of a lock up.

i've been playing "star ocean till the end of time" on the ps3. i first played it back in 04 on the ps2 and really enjoyed it then. this time around the ps3 keeps locking up during fights, and as a new "area" is loading. i have the ps3 hooked up via hdmi. i don't know if this is has anything to do with the lag or not. but it really does suck when you've played for 40 mins. and then you have to start over because of a lock up.

I've had no similar problems with SOTET, I've got my ps3 hooked with HDMI as well. Have you tried playing on another TV or thru the analog connections? Perhaps the problem is with your disc.

I need to come to the forums more often.
I was playing GOW2 for the first time last week (great game btw).
However my frustration set in at the final stage of the final battle. You have to do a series of random button pushes to win. Now I'll admit. I'm not as quick on the controller as I was in the Atari 2600 days, or even in the NES days. But I can still hold my own.
No matter what I did I could not press the button quick enough. It was like I had to predict what button the game was going to ask to be pressed.
After trying a couple of dozen times I finally called it a night, put the game back in the shipping envelope and sent it back to Gamefly.

Since I didn't run into any other problems for the entire game I figured I was just loosing my touch. I think I may rent the game again in the near future and try it with s-video. And since I was playing it on a hls model Samsung (though I've had no other problems with lag on the TV) I think I will put it in game mode.

Funny, but when I saw the topic of the thread I thought "bull! I've experienced no lag!" Then the GOW 2 experience that I just had reminded me that the OP hit the nail on the head.

DARN IT! how did I miss this thread.

No wonder I am getting destroyed in Marvel Vs capcom 2. I use my instincts to play. Whereas, my gf's brother reads faqs online... and uses the a few different combination over and over(IE lag doesnt matter to him).

I hope they fix this soon.. or re-release Marvel Vs Capcom 2 on PS3

I don't see any lag on my sharp 46d92u lcd tv connected via hdmi. I have a ps2 going to a crt as well. Both seem about the same. I have 2ps2's and one ps3. I don't see much lag.

I don't see any lag on my sharp 46d92u lcd tv connected via hdmi. I have a ps2 going to a crt as well. Both seem about the same. I have 2ps2's and one ps3. I don't see much lag.
Same here, no issues at all, w/ Sony SXRD

EDIT: Could be that i have not played a ps1/2 game where lag really made a difference but so far i have not noticed any lag

I've had no similar problems with SOTET, I've got my ps3 hooked with HDMI as well. Have you tried playing on another TV or thru the analog connections? Perhaps the problem is with your disc.


i though it was the disk as well so i took it back to gamestop and swapped, same results.

Hmm.. this makes sense, and I equated it to poor emulation,etc.

I rented madden 07 for the ps2 and there's a VERY noticeable lag (maybe not to the novices) but it's definetly noticeable. A split second makes a big difference when playing online, and this sounds like it could be the problem.. i'll have to try it w/ the crappy analog cables to see if it fixes it! :mad:

Anyone know if this issue has been corrected yet in firmware 1.90?

I was thinking of picking up Frequency and Amplitude but it seems lag might be a problem.

The issue in the first post has still not been addressed by Sony and still exists in the newest Firmware Version 1.90.

I will resurrect this, because I just bought a 60GB PS3 and noticed the same problem while playing Gradius V. I have my PS3 hooked up via HDMI to my 1080p TV. I don't even own any PS3 games yet, so all I have tried on the system are old PS1 and PS2 games.

Is a component cable still the only option to eliminate the lag?
I bought a PS3 with the expectation that it would upscale and make my PS2 games look better and lag less. Does it even make them look better?

There isn't inherent lag in HDMI per se, only with some HDTVs, some HDTV settings, and/or PS2 controllers connected to the PS3. I'm playing PS3 games that require frame-accurate 1/60th of a second precision through HDMI and get zero lag. Any good fighting game (like Tekken 5 DR or Soul Calibur 4) or rhythm game (like Guitar Hero 3) are the best ways to determine if you have lag at all. If you do with PS3 games, it is likely due to your HDTV and its settings.

For PS2 games, you may be getting lag through HDMI, but it's not because of the PS3. The reason why is because HDMI technology doesn't allow 480i output to your HDTV, which is the native resolution of non-progressive PS2 games. Because HDMI won't send 480i information, you will get some lag in the conversion to progressive. Getting Component cables (and putting the PS3 on 480i resolution) will solve your problem, as long as you have special digital enhancement settings on your HDTV turned off. BTW, you CAN have Component and HDMI connected simultaneously. You have to manually switch between them in the system menu however.

As for PS2 visuals, they can look the same or be optionally smoothed out on the PS3. If you stick with normal settings it'll look the same on your TV as a PS2 unit. Some people like the smooth out feature but some do not. Sometimes HDTVs seem to accentuate the lesser graphics of an older game, making it look worse than it did on the old 480i sets we had for so many years. It may just take getting used to.

I will resurrect this, because I just bought a 60GB PS3 and noticed the same problem while playing Gradius V. I have my PS3 hooked up via HDMI to my 1080p TV. I don't even own any PS3 games yet, so all I have tried on the system are old PS1 and PS2 games.

Is a component cable still the only option to eliminate the lag?
I bought a PS3 with the expectation that it would upscale and make my PS2 games look better and lag less. Does it even make them look better?

Why did you think it would lower lag? The PS3 if anything does more processing on games than the PS2 does. It's really not a huge revelation that it adds some lag.

As for looking better... yes and no. The upscaling is decent, smoothing is very good on some games but barely noticeable on most I have played. Sony has always stressed compatibility over features.

i've been playing "star ocean till the end of time" on the ps3. i first played it back in 04 on the ps2 and really enjoyed it then. this time around the ps3 keeps locking up during fights, and as a new "area" is loading. i have the ps3 hooked up via hdmi. i don't know if this is has anything to do with the lag or not. but it really does suck when you've played for 40 mins. and then you have to start over because of a lock up.

That game used to lock up my PS2, so I'm not sure its a ps3 problem. I never could set up a "trophy" file, it would always hang creating.