I have a dillema. I have a TV that displays 1080P resolution, but it only has Component, and HDMI hookups - NO VGA! So, I want to upscale my DVDs, but I can only upscale using the VGA cable. My question is:

Can I use the Startech VGA to HDMI conversion box with the X360 VGA cable?

I'm assuming this would work, and would allow me to get full 1080p out of the box, as well as upscale my DVDs!

Now, here is the big question - even if this will work do you guys think I will see noticable quality loss? Because, if I'm going to lose quality going through this conversion it's not worth it to me.

Anyone have an opinion on this? I'd really like to get this going if it will work...

Anyone have an opinion on this? I'd really like to get this going if it will work...

One of the display upgrades I'm considering (the JVC HD-56G87C... the Costco version) has this limitation as well. For some reason, they axed the VGA input for the G887's made for Costo. If I thought this would work satisfactorily, I'd go for this if I thought the Startech VGA to HDMI conversion box would get the job done for me until there is a true HDMI cable available for the XBox 360.

Thanks for alerting me to the Startech box, I'd not heard of it until reading this thread. I hope you'll get some feedback on it from someone who's actually used it before too long.

I am going to buy one of these today from CDW and I will let you know the results.

The reason why I am buying this is to basically replace my Toshiba HD-A1 with a Xbox HD-DVD but I do not want to lose upconverting standard DVD's. My HT only has S-VIDEO, Component, and HDMI so VGA is not an option unless I want to tear up the ceiling. I figure this will be cheaper.

I am going to buy one of these today from CDW and I will let you know the results.

The reason why I am buying this is to basically replace my Toshiba HD-A1 with a Xbox HD-DVD but I do not want to lose upconverting standard DVD's. My HT only has S-VIDEO, Component, and HDMI so VGA is not an option unless I want to tear up the ceiling. I figure this will be cheaper.

Hi, will you post back here with your results? I'd be really interested to hear how well (or not) this works.

Thanks, David.

Will do. I called Startech and they assured me there would be no degredation in video. We will see...

I have a dillema. I have a TV that displays 1080P resolution, but it only has Component, and HDMI hookups - NO VGA! So, I want to upscale my DVDs, but I can only upscale using the VGA cable.

I assume you refer to the fact that the 360 can only upscale over VGA. What kind of TV do you have?

Is there going to be any development to allow upscaled output over anything besides VGA in the future?

There has been much speculation that MS will come out with some type of HDMI cable but no one knows at this point.

There has been much speculation that MS will come out with some type of HDMI cable but no one knows at this point.

From what I understand, this can't be done with a passive cable. It's going to require some active processing to convert the analog signal to digital for HDMI, from all that I've read. If I go with the JVC HD-56FN97, I'm going to need an HDMI input to do 1080p... that's the only way it can do 1080p.

The Startech converter does the job that I need, I'd just like to hear an end user report on it, so far I've not found one. We'll have some data from Insignia on this before long. $150 + seems like a lot of money to do what this is doing, but as much as I like the JVC FN97 series, it's the only way I'll ever upscale 480p DVD's, or enjoy native 1080p inputs on it.

I guess I don't see the point of this. For $150 you can get an Oppo 970 or any number of other DVD upconverters. For $150 + price of add-on + price of VGA cable you're getting very close to the price of a stand alone HD-DVD player, which will also upconvert your old DVDs. And I suspect that the PQ of an Oppo or Toshiba will be superior to 360 VGA run through an HDMI converter.

The Toshiba HD-A1 is massive in size. My HT cabinet is full and the more space I can save the better.

I guess I don't see the point of this. For $150 you can get an Oppo 970 or any number of other DVD upconverters. For $150 + price of add-on + price of VGA cable you're getting very close to the price of a stand alone HD-DVD player, which will also upconvert your old DVDs. And I suspect that the PQ of an Oppo or Toshiba will be superior to 360 VGA run through an HDMI converter.

There are two reasons I'm considering this as an option:

1.) Like Signia, space is a constraint in my case. I don't have the room for another DVD player in my TV stand, and it suits my wife's decor.

2.) I'm looking down the road when native 1080p games are released for the 360. Without an HDMI connection, I won't be able to able to benefit from them on the set I'm planning to buy.

I'd say your suspicion that the PQ of an Oppo or Toshiba would be better than the XBox 360's run through a VGA -> HDMI converter. How much, I don't know. I'm not a purist when it comes to PQ, but if the Startech converter doesn't get a few thumbs up from users, I won't be going this route.

2.) I'm looking down the road when native 1080p games are released for the 360.

Don't hold your breath on that.

Don't hold your breath on that.

It'll be my luck that next year, EA Sports releases Tiger Woods 2008 (75% of my time playing the XBox 360 is with Tiger Woods 2007) supporting 1080p, I'll be kicking myself for not having the capability of experiencing it to the fullest.

I understand that 1080p games are not going to be the norm, especially as limited as the market share is that has the capability of displaying a native 1080p from the 360. It would hardly be worth the developers time and money for what little added return would be realized from it.

There are two reasons I'm considering this as an option:

1.) Like Signia, space is a constraint in my case. I don't have the room for another DVD player in my TV stand, and it suits my wife's decor.

2.) I'm looking down the road when native 1080p games are released for the 360. Without an HDMI connection, I won't be able to able to benefit from them on the set I'm planning to buy.

I'd say your suspicion that the PQ of an Oppo or Toshiba would be better than the XBox 360's run through a VGA -> HDMI converter. How much, I don't know. I'm not a purist when it comes to PQ, but if the Startech converter doesn't get a few thumbs up from users, I won't be going this route.

you will have a signal loss from digital to analog to digital again.
Standalone with hdmi out is the way to go.

Alright everyone here are my results after playing around with it for about an hour last night.

I received the VGA -> HDMI converter yesterday and purchased the Xbox 360 HD-DVD drive and the VGA cable. I am running a Optoma HD72 on a 110" VuTec screen.

After installing everything and switching the input on the projector to HDMI, bam it came up. The picture was running at 640X480. I quickly changed the resolution to 1280x720 and again no problems. Here are a couple of things I noticed.

The picture was brighter than before. Things looked a little washed out. I popped in my AVIA disc and re-calibrated the contrast and brightness. After doing this the picture looked great again. Just as good as the Toshiba HD-A1 and games looked just as good as before. I popped in GOW and checked out the rain level. It looked fantastic!!!

It is kind of funny that even though the projector is receiving an input through HDMI it is showing the actual resolution of the picture where as before it would just show 720p and 1080i, it now shows 1280x720. It is almost like it knows it is receiving a VGA resolution through HDMI.

I do not see any signal lose at all. I popped in one of my 24 season discs and the resolution stayed at 720p. The disc looked just as good to me as the Toshiba. Then I popped in MI III and that looked just as good to me as the Toshiba.

The Xbox 360 drive is so much faster than the Toshiba. It loads and plays just as fast as any other DVD player. Anyone with a Toshiba unit knows this is not the case.

So there you have it. The Startac does indeed work. No signal loss. I called Startec tech support just before I bought this and the guy told me I would not experience signal loss. I will post more impressions after I play more with it tonight.

So will it do 1080p at 1920x1080?

It will not do 1920x1080 but I think that is because of my projector. I know there have been some reports of 1080p being incompatible with some displays.

I take that back. I don't think it is my projector because it would take a 1080p signal over component so it might be a problem with the 360.

I'm also wondering if anyone has tried this on a KDS**-A2000 using 1080p?

Its the converter; the product specs says it can only go up to 1600x1200.

Anyways, I was wondering if this would fix my overscan problems on my lcd tv...
I may have to give this a try.

Alright everyone here are my results after playing around with it for about an hour last night.

I received the VGA -> HDMI converter yesterday and purchased the Xbox 360 HD-DVD drive and the VGA cable. I am running a Optoma HD72 on a 110" VuTec screen.

After installing everything and switching the input on the projector to HDMI, bam it came up. The picture was running at 640X480. I quickly changed the resolution to 1280x720 and again no problems. Here are a couple of things I noticed.

The picture was brighter than before. Things looked a little washed out. I popped in my AVIA disc and re-calibrated the contrast and brightness. After doing this the picture looked great again. Just as good as the Toshiba HD-A1 and games looked just as good as before. I popped in GOW and checked out the rain level. It looked fantastic!!!

It is kind of funny that even though the projector is receiving an input through HDMI it is showing the actual resolution of the picture where as before it would just show 720p and 1080i, it now shows 1280x720. It is almost like it knows it is receiving a VGA resolution through HDMI.

I do not see any signal lose at all. I popped in one of my 24 season discs and the resolution stayed at 720p. The disc looked just as good to me as the Toshiba. Then I popped in MI III and that looked just as good to me as the Toshiba.

The Xbox 360 drive is so much faster than the Toshiba. It loads and plays just as fast as any other DVD player. Anyone with a Toshiba unit knows this is not the case.

So there you have it. The Startac does indeed work. No signal loss. I called Startec tech support just before I bought this and the guy told me I would not experience signal loss. I will post more impressions after I play more with it tonight.


Signia, thanks for the up-dates!!

I am considering going this route as well.
I have a Sony SXRD that only accepts 1080p input via HDMI.....

Thanks again and please post up any other thoughts about your set-up!

-Chris

You may want to hold off if you are trying to get 1080p. This converter only supports rez's up to 1600x1200. Kind of a bummer but it will still upconvert regular DVD's. As of now that is the only real benefit I see.

Has anyone heard any reviews of this product?

Gefen Component Audio to HDMI Adapter (http://www.gefen.com/kvm/product.jsp?prod_id=3569)

The specification says it supports computer resolutions up to 1920x1200 at 60Hz.

Has anyone heard any reviews of this product?

Gefen Component Audio to HDMI Adapter (http://www.gefen.com/kvm/product.jsp?prod_id=3569)

The specification says it supports computer resolutions up to 1920x1200 at 60Hz.

I read about somebody using the Gefen with success at 1080p (360's VGA output) but now I cannot find it . The Gefen should do the trick for those needing to use HDMI in order to get 1080p . Gefen has a great reputation for quality products and they are usually very accurate on their claimed specifications .

------ Jason

Has anyone heard any reviews of this product?

Gefen Component Audio to HDMI Adapter (http://www.gefen.com/kvm/product.jsp?prod_id=3569)

The specification says it supports computer resolutions up to 1920x1200 at 60Hz.

I tried using this adapter on my HP 5880n and the only resolution that would work was 1280x720. 1080p (and any other resolution) would give me a severely distorted image (Colors wrong, distortion in the image) although the image was 1080p (or whatever other resolution I had it set at) according to the TV. I ended up returning it and just keeping the resolution at the HP supported 1366x768 which still looks outstanding.

I just wanted to see if there would be a huge difference at 1080p

You may want to hold off if you are trying to get 1080p. This converter only supports rez's up to 1600x1200. Kind of a bummer but it will still upconvert regular DVD's. As of now that is the only real benefit I see.

Thanks Signia for posting your impressions. I think I'll wait until there's a 1080p version.

Many thanks for all the research.

David

I am going to send this one back and get the Gefen one. The Gefen device supports 1080p. I will post after I get that one.

can any of these products be found other than online? I would like to try it out, but hate doing online returns.

Well here's another option that *could* be legit... Today a Dutch online merchant (Dimension Plus) is listing an HDMI A/V cable for the XBox 360, as "coming February 23rd, 2007". It's listed at 49.99 Euros (not sure what that translates to in dollars).

Anyway, this looks like a legitimate business and they've been around a while and they're listing this as a Mircrosoft brand product.

Here's a link to the page featuring the cable. Maybe some of you who are familiar with Dutch can help with the translation.

http://www.dimensionplus.nl/link.asp?pid=780112&z=86

I am going to send this one back and get the Gefen one. The Gefen device supports 1080p. I will post after I get that one.

Please do post with your initial thoughts. I'm looking forward to hearing about your experience. I have pretty much given up on a Microsoft solution.

*bump* for some results :)

D

The Gefen product is backordered until the 15th. I will post after I get it.

The Startec product is working well. Especially after I have calibrated it to fix the washed out VGA issue.

My biggest concern is getting 1080P to work. The Gefen product looks to be a great test for this. Can't wait to see your results!

D

I have been wondering about the Gefen product as well. I called them and they are sending us a review unit. I will keep you all posted.

--bill

PDAToday

Is there any lags when you are playing a game? How fast does the conversion take?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't using the Gefen converter still prevent DVD upconversion from 480p to 720p? It's primary output connection from the XBox 360 is still component, and that medium is locked out (by whatever governing body it is that imposes this ceiling) from upconversion to 720p.

My main purpose for going with HDMI or VGA is to have the capability to upconvert DVD's from 480p to 720p. Since the HDTV to which I wish to upgrade is a JVC HD-56GC86 (no VGA input), my option for having an upscaling path is limited to HDMI.

Since component cables are in the loop with the Gefen converter, wouldn't that prevent upconversion?

To the question above... The converter would be taking in vga (for upconverting, not component) and sending that to hdmi.

To the question above... The converter would be taking in vga (for upconverting, not component) and sending that to hdmi.

I followed the link to the Gefen converter (http://www.gefen.com/kvm/product.jsp?prod_id=3569) and it calls itself a component to HDMI adapter. I don't see a VGA to HDMI adapter at Gefen's website. Am I missing something?

What they call Comp In sure looks like a VGA connector to me. And it comes with a VGA-component cable, so basically it runs either through the 15 pin connection.

I followed the link to the Gefen converter (http://www.gefen.com/kvm/product.jsp?prod_id=3569) and it calls itself a component to HDMI adapter. I don't see a VGA to HDMI adapter at Gefen's website. Am I missing something?

Features:

* Allows you to connect computers with analog VGA outputs to an HDMI™ display
* Allows you to connect YPbPr HDTV sources to an HDMI™ display

The package does include a 6ft VGA to Component cable.

Wiring Diagram

http://www.gefen.com/images/compaudhdmiadapterdiagram.jpg

This is the way the Startec unit works and it does upconvert SDVD's to whatever resolution you are running. The Startec unit is working fine with no lag but the only problem is the maximum rez is 1600x1200 where as the Gefen unit does 1920x1080.

I was looking into picking up this TV Samsung LN-S4095D, which states that it will do 1080p over component.

The main topic of conversation in this thread has been in regards to upconverting standard DVD's, but I have that avenue taken care of already with an LG set top dvd player.

I have the HD-DVD drive currently and a 32" LCD HDTV that has VGA but doesn't look nearly as sharp as component even after calbration. So my question is has anyone had any lucky getting the 360 to output via component via 1080p using the HD-DVD drive on a tv that states it will do 1080p over component like the Samsung I mentioned above? It seems like the 1080p over component is becoming quite common with Samsung. Any info is appreciated.

So my question is has anyone had any lucky getting the 360 to output via component via 1080p using the HD-DVD drive on a tv that states it will do 1080p over component like the Samsung I mentioned above? It seems like the 1080p over component is becoming quite common with Samsung. Any info is appreciated.

Via Engadget (http://www.engadgethd.com/2006/09/21/xbox-360-hd-dvd-playback-maximum-1080i-via-component-1080p-vga/)

VGA:

• HD DVD - 1080p resolution and all others
• DVD - Upscaled as high as 1080p resolution and all others
• Games - 720p games upscaled to 1080p, also supports native-1080p games in the future

Component:

• HD DVD - 1080i resolution maximum, limited by AACS
• DVD - Upscaled to 480p maximum, limited by CSS
• Games - 720p games upscaled to 1080p, also supports native-1080p games in the future

Cool dude, thanks.

Can DVD's without CSS be upconverted thru component (back-up disc)?
Is there anyway to output 480i on the xbox thru component or otherwise to allow the display or external scaler/deinterlacer to process the 480i signal?

Features:

* Allows you to connect computers with analog VGA outputs to an HDMI™ display
* Allows you to connect YPbPr HDTV sources to an HDMI™ display

The package does include a 6ft VGA to Component cable.

Wiring Diagram



Thanks hummus23... I guess I didn't read far enough past the title of the product to see what it really does. I think the name Component Audio to HDMI Adapter is a little deceiving to people who don't understand analog display technology conventions any better than I do. So this device is receiving component (analog) video input via VGA?

Anyway, this now stands as a potentially viable option, although I would be a bit skeptical as to how the video would synch with the optical audio signal out of the Microsoft VGA cable that I would be using with my surround sound receiver. I'm sure we'll have answers to that soon.

Like I said in my previous post with the StarTec, I have not seen any "sync" issues between the video and the audio. I using optical into my Harmon Kardon receiver

Like I said in my previous post with the StarTec, I have not seen any "sync" issues between the video and the audio. I using optical into my Harmon Kardon receiver

That's good to hear Signia, I hope the Gefen yields a similar performance in this regard.

I am very interested in the results of the Gefen converter. Any new info?

I followed the link to the Gefen converter (http://www.gefen.com/kvm/product.jsp?prod_id=3569) and it calls itself a component to HDMI adapter. I don't see a VGA to HDMI adapter at Gefen's website. Am I missing something?

Another $200, yak

Another $200, yak

Yeah, that's a bit staggering considering that you can buy a decent dedicated progressive scan DVD player with HDMI, capable of doing the same job for $50 less!

I have this unit. Let me solve the confusion: It comes with a custom Component to VGA adapter cable. You plug your component into that, and then it goes VGA to the box.

-Component to VGA to HDMI-

Or you can skip the component and plug a VGA cable in raw.

Features:

* Allows you to connect computers with analog VGA outputs to an HDMI™ display
* Allows you to connect YPbPr HDTV sources to an HDMI™ display

The package does include a 6ft VGA to Component cable. <- <- <-

Cynn, how do you like it? Can you get 1080 over it?

1080p comes over but it's messed up. The colors are all off and there's a lot of noise. 720p is perfect. 1080p not so much.

On my TV, when I plug the X360 VGA adapter instead of component, I get an unsupported signal error.

So at this time, it does not look so good for X360 and this device unless you run 720p and just want to free up a component.

1080p comes over but it's messed up. The colors are all off and there's a lot of noise. 720p is perfect. 1080p not so much.

On my TV, when I plug the X360 VGA adapter instead of component, I get an unsupported signal error.

So at this time, it does not look so good for X360 and this device unless you run 720p and just want to free up a component.

Thanks for the report Cynn. I wonder what's offered in the way of technical support from Gefen? I would be plugging my VGA straight into the adapter, so getting an unsupported signal error would shut me out entirely.

Please keep up posted if you learn anything more on this.

1080p comes over but it's messed up. The colors are all off and there's a lot of noise. 720p is perfect. 1080p not so much.

On my TV, when I plug the X360 VGA adapter instead of component, I get an unsupported signal error.

So at this time, it does not look so good for X360 and this device unless you run 720p and just want to free up a component.

When using the VGA adapter did you do this?

"There are 2 dip switches underneath the unit (hidden beneath a silver
sticker). If your source is RGB instead of YPbPr, switch both of the dip switches
to the OFF(Down) position to switch to the RGB color space."

2.) I'm looking down the road when native 1080p games are released for the 360. Without an HDMI connection, I won't be able to able to benefit from them on the set I'm planning to buy.

Although it wouldn't surprise me to see a few 1080p games down the road (the 360 certainly has the horsepower to pull off a game like Virtua Tennis), I wouldn't suspect we'll be seeing very many. It's just not necessary right now.

However, your second point is why I am responding. You can still get 1080p for games over component. Only DVDs/HD-DVDs are limited via component. There are no restrictions like that placed on games.

Although it wouldn't surprise me to see a few 1080p games down the road (the 360 certainly has the horsepower to pull off a game like Virtua Tennis), I wouldn't suspect we'll be seeing very many. It's just not necessary right now.

I mostly play Tiger Woods 2007 on my XBox 360. I can just see EA Sports releasing TW 2008 to be 1080p and 720p, and I'd be kicking myself to the curb for not having the capability of playing it.

However, your second point is why I am responding. You can still get 1080p for games over component. Only DVDs/HD-DVDs are limited via component. There are no restrictions like that placed on games.

The problem I'll run into here (and this is not in reference to the converter) is that the set I'm planning to upgrade to doesn't accept 1080p over component, be it HD-DVD or games.

"There are 2 dip switches underneath the unit (hidden beneath a silver
sticker). If your source is RGB instead of YPbPr, switch both of the dip switches
to the OFF(Down) position to switch to the RGB color space."

Ah... I bet that's the ticket!

I have the Gefen "VGA to HDMI" converter and, so far, I haven't been able to get it to work in 1080p. It works perfectly in 720p, but if I switch over to 1080p it just goes black and either goes back to 720p or gives an error of unsupported resolution. I have a 46" Sharp Aquos. Couldn't get it working on my friend's Westinghouse either. The 360 does 1080p fine through the VGA port on his TV, but wouldn't accept it through the converter on HDMI.

I have the Gefen "VGA to HDMI" converter and, so far, I haven't been able to get it to work in 1080p. It works perfectly in 720p, but if I switch over to 1080p it just goes black and either goes back to 720p or gives an error of unsupported resolution.

I take it you toggled the dip switches underneath the unit to which hummus23 is referring?

In 720p, do you have any sync issues with the audio, especially if you are using the optical audio cable?

My Gefen convertor is on backorder also, but so far from what people are saying its not looking good, only reason I was interested is because I have a Sony A2000, only capable for getting 1080p through the HDMI port,(heard it will work through the VGA port, but not full screen) so it might be 1080I through component until MS comes up with a solution.

I'll post my findings also.

Has anyone been able to get this to work?

It seems really odd that Gefen itself says they have tested the unit at 1080p on a Westinghouse TV yet nobody seems to be able to get it to work.

Man.. my XBR2 is desperate for this to work.

I take it you toggled the dip switches underneath the unit to which hummus23 is referring?

In 720p, do you have any sync issues with the audio, especially if you are using the optical audio cable?

The switches only fixed the coloring. When I first hooked it up it was all pink and nasty. I thought it wasn't going to work then. Then I found the dipswitches and this made the colors perfect. Didn't help with the 1080p problem. I'd have to test the audio synching in 720p w/VGA. Since the 1080p didn't work I switched back to Component since it'll do 1080p through the component for games, just not HD-DVD.

The switches only fixed the coloring. When I first hooked it up it was all pink and nasty. I thought it wasn't going to work then. Then I found the dipswitches and this made the colors perfect. Didn't help with the 1080p problem. I'd have to test the audio synching in 720p w/VGA. Since the 1080p didn't work I switched back to Component since it'll do 1080p through the component for games, just not HD-DVD.


So if you hook the VGA directly into the box and then try to get 1080p via HDMI.. it's a no go? Man... I really don't like when companies lie about something working and then it doesn't. Im talking about 1080p for games via the HDMI.. not worried about movies.

So if you hook the VGA directly into the box and then try to get 1080p via HDMI.. it's a no go? Man... I really don't like when companies lie about something working and then it doesn't. Im talking about 1080p for games via the HDMI.. not worried about movies.

I doubt we should be saying Gefen "lied" about something, just because this non-standard 1080p console and non-standard HDMI converter doesn't work with everything.

I haven't read all 3 pages of this thread. But I do know that these transcoders you are trying utilize can be shaky unless you spend a couple of hundred of dollars. I've seen transcoders in effect and the output product is usually not too impressive. Obvious vertical banding, bad color accuracy. You have to realize that this device is trying to convert an analog signal to a digital one. This can be a very complex process escpecially with the amount of information you are trying to pass. I'm in the same boat as you guys (no vga input on my set) and lots of research has shown that I'm better of just sucking it up not getting my DVD's upconverted to 1080p rather than spend all that money on a device that will probably provide a less than satisfactory picture. Especially one that looks worse than 720p.

Any of you guys with the Gefen converter getting any help from Gefen's technical support on your inability to get 1080p? I'd like to know if there are other applications where people are using this converter with other input devices that *are* allowing 1080p display via this converter.

Any of you guys with the Gefen converter getting any help from Gefen's technical support on your inability to get 1080p? I'd like to know if there are other applications where people are using this converter with other input devices that *are* allowing 1080p display via this converter.

I guess I haven't really tried for any support. I did ask for any assistance possible at the end of one of my posts on their forum, but I would hardly call that making an effort.

bump - any news on that dutch site?

bump - any news on that dutch site?

It's still listed as "Coming February 23'rd"; price is still 49.99 Euros. I just picked up a JVC HD-56FG97 at Costo last night (no VGA input) and it has already escalated my desire for an HDMI cable to a higher level. It's like putting a set of baby moons on Ferrari to be relegated to 720p (and no 480p DVD player upgrading) via component cables with this set.

Here's an interesting little tidbit I just picked up on at Mad Catz' FAQ at their website. I was checking in on them since hearing a report that Mad Catz recently announced that they were working on an HDMI cable for the 360 for next year, at a regional trade show.

Q: Do you sell HDMI cables for the Xbox 360?

A: The actual 360 console does not currently (3/7/06)contain HDMI support.

If a firmware upgrade is released by Microsoft allowing the 360 to use HDMI cables, we will most likely make them at that point.

So Mad Catz is saying that only a firmware upgrade is needed to.... (note the choosing of words here boys and girls) "allow" the 360 to use HDMI cables.... veddy interestink :)

I suppose this is how MS will add HDMI to the 360. They'll just release a 1st party converter...

I suppose this is how MS will add HDMI to the 360. They'll just release a 1st party converter...

A Dutch webmerchant has listed an HDMI A/V cable, with the Microsoft brand name for two weeks now. They're listing it for 49.99 Euros (~$67), with a February release date. Can a converter be made for that price, or does Microsoft simply know how to pick off the signal in digital form on the current connector port? I'm thinking it would have to be the latter for that price.

Via Engadget (http://www.engadgethd.com/2006/09/21/xbox-360-hd-dvd-playback-maximum-1080i-via-component-1080p-vga/)

VGA:

• HD DVD - 1080p resolution and all others
• DVD - Upscaled as high as 1080p resolution and all others
• Games - 720p games upscaled to 1080p, also supports native-1080p games in the future

Component:

• HD DVD - 1080i resolution maximum, limited by AACS
• DVD - Upscaled to 480p maximum, limited by CSS
• Games - 720p games upscaled to 1080p, also supports native-1080p games in the future

I have a Sharp LC-42D62U 1080p panel connected by component cable to the Xbox 360. Xbox 360 is set to 1080p. TV correctly recognizes 1080p over component input. The only time the TV reports a different resolution is when I play an HD DVD in the add-on Xbox 360 player. It changes to 1080i as would be expected given the above AACS limit over component (above). So here's the upscaling question: If DVDs are supposed to be restricted to 480p over component per CSS, then why doesn't my TV report this drop in resolution when watching a DVD? Also, if my TV has a native resolution of 1920x1080, then wouldn't the TV always be upscaling content received that had less resolution (480p,720p,etc)? Is the upscaling that happens over the VGA cable different or better than either setting component to 1080p or sending 480p and letting the TV upscale it?

So here's the upscaling question: If DVDs are supposed to be restricted to 480p over component per CSS, then why doesn't my TV report this drop in resolution when watching a DVD?

Excellent question! I've been pondering this myself. I just got a JVC 56FC97, which I don't know how to get it to report what kind of input it's receiving; however, I hear that it upscales every progressive input up to 1080p, and deinterlaces 1080i to 1080p. I'd really like to know what the inputs are though.

Also, if my TV has a native resolution of 1920x1080, then wouldn't the TV always be upscaling content received that had less resolution (480p,720p,etc)? Is the upscaling that happens over the VGA cable different or better than either setting component to 1080p or sending 480p and letting the TV upscale it?

Another great question... I was upscaling my XBox 360's DVD playback via the VGA cable to the 42" Vizio plasma I had prior to the JVC (which doesn't have a VGA port), and I personally thought it produced a more precise display than the JVC is doing with whatever upscaling it's doing to the 360's 480p capped DVD input.

My experience with this has me thinking that the upscaling done by the DVD player is superior to that's being done by my set. Of course I'm comparing the memory of a 42" plasma display to what I'm seeing now via component on a 56" rear projection display, so my comparison is a bit skewed.

Via Engadget (http://www.engadgethd.com/2006/09/21/xbox-360-hd-dvd-playback-maximum-1080i-via-component-1080p-vga/)

VGA:

• HD DVD - 1080p resolution and all others
• DVD - Upscaled as high as 1080p resolution and all others
• Games - 720p games upscaled to 1080p, also supports native-1080p games in the future

Component:

• HD DVD - 1080i resolution maximum, limited by AACS
• DVD - Upscaled to 480p maximum, limited by CSS
• Games - 720p games upscaled to 1080p, also supports native-1080p games in the future

So when we stream a video from our computers what does it do with that? Is it capped at 480p through components?

So when we stream a video from our computers what does it do with that? Is it capped at 480p through components?

There's got to be a codebook that we can consult to find the answers to our questions about this kneedragger. I'm a bit of a n00b at this and I'm really confused by all of legalese that seems to be part and parcel to HD.

I haven't streamed a high res video from my computer through my XBox 360 yet, but since it's not coming via the DVD drive, I would think it would bypass this cap. After all, I can watch a hi-def movie that I've downloaded via XBox Live at 720p, via component cables.

Another option to get around the downscaling restriction would be to go VGA -> Component, this might be an easier conversion because both signals are analog..

This solution won't however, help anyone with HDMI over 1080p only..

Also here is what I think about the Microsoft HDMI cable
I don't think that it is an easy conversion for them, - Ignore what they say. I personally would love a HDMI cable.

Here is my Main Point: They Have a VGA Cable
Thier reasoning for not releasing HDMI is 'consumer demand' well this is BS, Consumer demand for a HDMI is about 10x that of a VGA Cable.

So its likely that they are restricted to analog outputs (as much as I wish this were not true)

My best guess is that they are trying to create their own transcoder to output HDMI.

The reason for this delay is that this transcoder would need to accept the Xbox's crazy signal that no transcoder can currently handle correctly. Once they have their transcoder ready, I'm sure it will be packaged to look like part of the cable... The one problem I can see them finding is needing to power it, if they need to power it then it would be pretty rediculous needing a power cable for a av cable..

Anyways This is just my speculation,

I really hope I'm wrong and 360 can handle digital output...

Excellent points nevek! The VGA to component transcoder is relatively cheap and probably represents the most reasonable solution for me at the moment, but I do worry about lag. I don't have a set that accepts 1080p by anything other than HDMI, so in that respect, the VGA/Component transcoder loses some oomph for me.

Secondly, I don't know that I'd gain that much by using the VGA/Component transcoder. My primary objective is upscaling DVD's to 720p, but I'm not sure how much that buys me with an HDTV that upscales inputs to 1080p anyway (a JVC HD-56FC97).

I doubt we should be saying Gefen "lied" about something, just because this non-standard 1080p console and non-standard HDMI converter doesn't work with everything.The XBox 360 seems to be sending a VESA compatible or similar CVT-RB (Reduced Blanking w/ + Horizontal and - Vertical polarity) 1080p signal. There's nothing non-standard, afaik, about Reduced Blanking. From what I understand (guru's feel free to correct), normal Blanking isn't needed for non-crt displays which don't have a wait till the electron gun on a crt moves back for each line and up at the end of each frame. And it allows for a slower clock speed without that wasted bandwidth.

MS should provide the XBox 360's 1080p VGA signal specs. I don't know why such things are kept secretive.

Re: Geffen. I read through their forum, and, imho, they seemed... what's the right word... let's just say I couldn't understand what their hdmi products could do or how well they worked w/ any confidence.

Secondly, I don't know that I'd gain that much by using the VGA/Component transcoder. My primary objective is upscaling DVD's to 720p, but I'm not sure how much that buys me with an HDTV that upscales inputs to 1080p anyway (a JVC HD-56FC97).

Not much. The JVC does a pretty good job upscaling SD if the source is clean and not a noisy pile of compressed crap. If you use a VGA-component transcoder, you'll be using the TV's scaler anyway, along with the 360's. My bet would be on the JVC doing a better job with a decent DVD player at 480i than if you had the 360 upscaling and deinterlacing (who knows if it really does this properly with film content - the JVC does) to 720p, then run through another device to be converted into digital, then into the JVC for some more scaling to 1080p. The latter, I think, is just asking for jaggies and combing.

The XBox 360 seems to be sending a VESA compatible

I thought it was posted in the stickied 1080p thread (page 4) that is didn't use VESA timings. Didn't use DDC either, which might not be considered standard. And it doesn't work with displays known to accept 1920x1080 VGA from a PC, which seems to indicate something other than standard about it.

I just read a post from a Gefen Tech Support person at their forums concerning the inability of the converter to work with the XBox 360's VGA output at 1080p:

"Posted - 12/27/2006 : 10:37:12
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Component Audio to HDMI Conversion Boxhttp://www.gefen.com/kvm/product.jsp?prod_id=3569 will take the component out of the XBOX 360 at 1080p and output HDMI at 1080p. The VGA out of the Xbox 360 works with the Component Audio to HDMI Conversion Box except for the 1080p resolution, the timings are not correct.

Khasha Roholahi
Sales/Technical Support
Gefen Inc
818-884-6294 x227
800-545-6900 x227"


I don't know if this is a case of Gefen placing the blame on Microsoft for the timings of the 360's VGA output being correct to get their fanny out of the fire, or whether the problem is on Gefen's end. Either way, it doesn't sound like this is something that will be easily resolved, if ever.

I guess I'll just continue to wait for February 23rd to get here, when Dimension Plus says the Microsoft HDMI A/V Cable will be released in the Netherlands ;)

To add some weight to Khasha Roholahi's contention that the XBox 360's VGA output uses non-standard timings, I found this post from an AVS forum member in another thread:

"What I did find is that the timings the 360 is using over VGA don't actually conform to any known standard. Not VESA, and not any others that I can dig up. So while there is still investigation to do, the problem does appear to be out-of-spec timings (other than resolution and vertical frequency) that panels are not liking, and either not being able to support DDC, or choosing to not implement the software end of it.

Edit: As an aside, it could also be a bug somewhere, even if it supports DDC, which creates incorrect timings. These timings, which don't conform to a standard, will not work on panels that are more strict regarding the standards than others."

To add some weight to Khasha Roholahi's contention that the XBox 360's VGA output uses non-standard timings, I found this post from an AVS forum member (Krevnik) in another thread:

"What I did find is that the timings the 360 is using over VGA don't actually conform to any known standard. Not VESA, and not any others that I can dig up. So while there is still investigation to do, the problem does appear to be out-of-spec timings (other than resolution and vertical frequency) that panels are not liking, and either not being able to support DDC, or choosing to not implement the software end of it.

Edit: As an aside, it could also be a bug somewhere, even if it supports DDC, which creates incorrect timings. These timings, which don't conform to a standard, will not work on panels that are more strict regarding the standards than others."

Here's the thread if you're interested: XBox 360 1080p incompatibility thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/printthread.php?t=743863&page=4&pp=30)

I posed a question on Gefen's tech support forum concerning the potential for Microsoft to correct the non-standard timings of the 360's 1080p VGA output. Here's the response:

"With the flexibility of Xbox live and the ease of updating the 360 (Note how they added 1080p support) Microsoft is probably aware of this issue and will most likely deploy an update but as far as a timetable we do not know when they will address this issue.

Aaron Mathis
Training and Development Manager
818-884-6294 xt 256
(800) 545-6900 xt 256
fax 818-884-3108"

Not anything solid to go on, but I'd have to agree that if Microsoft can enable 1080p support via an XBox Live update, they could likely correct the non-standard timings of VGA at 1080p

To continue the ongoing saga resulting from my inquiry into the VGA -> HDMI adapter, I elicted this response at XBox.com's forum from a user titled "Onza". The guy seems to know what he's talking about, but I'm not qualified to certify it. Anyway, here's his response:

"Knowing a bit of FPGAs (field programmable gate array), I have this feeling that if MS wanted to put a digital signal out on the A/V connector, they could (by reprograming the FPGA, if that's what is used, via a Live! update). In which case a simple SCART (not sure if that's what it's called on the 360 side) to HDMI cable could be provided.

If you don't know anything about FPGAs, wikipedia has a good entry.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FPGA"

This sounds as feasible as enabling 1080p support via an XBox Live update to me. It would be preferable to fixing the VGA timings at 1080p, that's for sure. A $180 active adapter would be moot if we had HDMI on the A/V port!

Excellent Research OnlookerDelay - I think that this gives us a bit more hope..

In regards to the netherlands cable - this should certainly be interesting - hopefully it is not a misprint

Excellent Research OnlookerDelay - I think that this gives us a bit more hope..

Thanks nevek... I'm ashamed to admit that I've become a bit obsessed with this issue, but I've always been a bit of a nuerotic tweaker :o I found a bit more today when I contacted Microsoft Customer Support, in response to an e-mail reply they'd sent me, suggesting that I call them with my question.

I ostensibly contacted them asking if an XBox Live update was in the works for correcting the non-standard VGA 1080p timings. The rep I spoke with wasn't hip to what I was talking about, so I dropped it. I then asked if there was an HDMI A/V cable under development. I could tell she had been given a pat answer to recite to this question:

"Any information concerning that is confidential"

I took that as a more hopeful sign than "No!"

In regards to the netherlands cable - this should certainly be interesting - hopefully it is not a misprint

I sent Dimension Plus an e-mail via their contact address late yesterday. I don't speak or understand Dutch, so I went to an online translation site and formulated my question about the legitimacy of their HDMI cable listing. I then had it converted to Dutch and pasted it in my e-mail. Those free online translations are usually pretty ragged... I hope they get my drift from however it actually came out.

I'll post any translated response I get from them here. If it's a misprint, it's been a misprint for a month now.

Here's a copy of the reply I got from Dimension Plus on my HDMI A/V cable inquiry for the 360. I thought I was asking more about the legitimacy of the ad, but I was using a free translation website to ask my question. Maybe someone here who speaks Dutch can comment on the accuracy of what I actually asked? Here's the reply I got, which told me nothing about the real availability or insight into the listing (they quote my ragged Dutch translation below their pat reply):

Hi,

I'm sorry, but unfortunately we don't ship to the US.

Dimension Plus
www.dimplus.nl

John Cauthen schreef:

Is de XBox 360 HDMI Een/V kabel die u reclame voor een 23 februari bevestigde bent? Zo ja u neemt bestellingen van de Verenigde Staten aan

John Cauthen

I have a question for those who have the geffen box, my plasma max's out at 1080i and I use the VGA connection to upscale SD DVD's - so basically can you use the geffen box set at 1080i hdmi that will still up-scale standard dvd's? I would just like to watch everything in 1080i and right now I have to switch out A/V adapters between HD materials and SD materials! thanx

I have a question for those who have the geffen box, my plasma max's out at 1080i and I use the VGA connection to upscale SD DVD's - so basically can you use the geffen box set at 1080i hdmi that will still up-scale standard dvd's? I would just like to watch everything in 1080i and right now I have to switch out A/V adapters between HD materials and SD materials! thanx

I can't answer your question positively, as I don't have the Geffen adapter. What I've read suggests that the problems are occuring at 1080p only. I'd suggest that you go to Geffen.com, and join their forum. If you pose the question there, one of their tech support people will answer it.

I got the following reply from Dimension Plus (a Dutch webmerchant), concerning the catalog listing they've had for a Microsoft HDMI A/V cable for a month now:

(Note that first here, they are responding to my pointing out that their product description below the item listing was for custom vinal XBox 360 console skins... they have now changed it to what translates to 'no product description')

"Hello,

You're right, that's an error, good thing you noticed, we'll change that. About the HDMI cable, that will be out here the 23rd of february, that's why we put it on the site, so people can make a pre-order if they want to.

André
Dimension Plus

John Cauthen schreef:

To add to my earlier reply, the product description shown for the HDMI A/V cable on your product info page is about a custom console skin product. Is that description placed there in error?

Thanks again,

John Cauthen"


Here is the link to the now modified catalog page for the alleged HDMI cable - http://www.dimensionplus.nl/index3.asp?url=/link.asp?pid=780011

I have a question for those who have the geffen box, my plasma max's out at 1080i and I use the VGA connection to upscale SD DVD's - so basically can you use the geffen box set at 1080i hdmi that will still up-scale standard dvd's? I would just like to watch everything in 1080i and right now I have to switch out A/V adapters between HD materials and SD materials! thanx

I think the Gefen outputs the resolution that is input, it doesn't scale anything. And the 360 doesn't have 1080i through VGA, only progressive resolutions. So you would be limited to 720p (or 1360x768, if your plasma excepts that through HDMI).

Anybody tried this one?
It lists 480p/720p/1080i/p as supported


Wont let me post a ******* or ebay url so you'll have to pop it in to ebays search box.

item # is 320062022631

Another question, those of you who have tried using the geffen @ 1080p, it didn't work for the 360 properly from what I read in the past few posts, but did anyone try it on a PC? Was it able to properly resolve a 1920x1080p signal from a DB15 VGA cable into the adapter and out to HDMI ok?

Anybody tried this one?
It lists 480p/720p/1080i/p as supported


Wont let me post a ******* or ebay url so you'll have to pop it in to ebays search box.

item # is 320062022631

Another question, those of you who have tried using the geffen @ 1080p, it didn't work for the 360 properly from what I read in the past few posts, but did anyone try it on a PC? Was it able to properly resolve a 1920x1080p signal from a DB15 VGA cable into the adapter and out to HDMI ok?

That's a new one on me Justin. I can't find a manufacturer name on it anywhere. The input specs are listed thusly:

Input/Output resolution
PC:VGA@60. VGA@72. VGA@75. VGA@85. SVGA@60. SVGA@72. SVGA@75. SVGA@85.
XGA@60. XGA@70. XGA@75. XGA@85. SXGA@60. SXGA@75. SXGA@85. UXGA@60
1152@70.1152@75.1152@85

HD/RGB:480i@60. 576i@50. 480p@60. 576p@50. 720p@60. 720p@50.
1080i@60. 1080i@50. 1080p@60. 1080p@50. 1080p@30.1080p@25. 1080p@24

Switch to select input format
HD/YPbPr or PC/RGBHV

Theoretically, it should get the job done; however, if Gefen's claim about the 360 VGA output timings at 1080p being "non-standard" are true, then this unit would probably have as much trouble resolving it as Gefen's. Perhpaps the seller can respond to the unit's ability to work with the 360 at 1080p. That's the only way I could possibly consider this unit.

Have any of you Geffen "Component Audio to HDMI Adapter" owners been able to get it to work with the 360 since the most recent January 2007 dashboard update? I'm especially interested in hearing success stories on using this device with the A2000.

FYI... I posted in the Geffen forum an inquiry about game lag and subjective quality when using this device. Here is what they said:
http://forum.gefen.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1157

Here's the forum listing talking about the problems with the 360 1080p VGA output:
http://forum.gefen.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1380

They mention that the XBOX 360 1080P timings are non-standard, so if MS never fixes the problem, what is the possibility of Gefen modifying their transcoder to work with the non-standard timing?

High - If they manage to make a reasonably priced, valid transcoder - it would be an excellent solution for 10 million xbox 360 owners who refuse to pay for a V2 360 with hdmi

High - If they manage to make a reasonably priced, valid transcoder - it would be an excellent solution for 10 million xbox 360 owners who refuse to pay for a V2 360 with hdmi

But it's still not HDMI out of the Xbox. You'll have no new audio, unnecessary D/A and A/D conversions (which, no offense to Gefen, are probably done better by your TV), and no HD-DVD if ICT happens. The only benefit I see is DVD upscaling, but at the price of the converter and considering the software deinterlacing in the 360, an Oppo looks pretty good.

But it's still not HDMI out of the Xbox. You'll have no new audio, unnecessary D/A and A/D conversions (which, no offense to Gefen, are probably done better by your TV), and no HD-DVD if ICT happens. The only benefit I see is DVD upscaling, but at the price of the converter and considering the software deinterlacing in the 360, an Oppo looks pretty good.

It's still something tho. As it is right now, you can only get 1080p from the 360 HD-DVD via VGA and the majority of TV's don't offer a full 1920x1080p VGA input. True its not as good as a native HDMI port but its better than nothing. I sure hope that V2 360 "Zephyr" prototype is something we'll see sometime soon.

I'm pretty sure that nothing in the 1-07-07 update did anything to correct the non-standard VGA timings at 1080p. I'm having second thoughts about the Gefen adapter the more I think about it. Gefen admitted that there would be a "less than one frame per second lag" introduced by the conversion process. This could be a problem when it comes to video gaming. I'd have to be able to test it in person to know for sure.

I guess I'm back to waiting to see what happens with the "Microsoft HDMI A/V cable" that Dimension Plus continues to advertise for February 23rd. Unless I missed something though... there was no mention of this cable at CES.

I may very well just buy a good upconverting DVD player/recorder with HDMI to handle my DVD playing needs, and leave my XBox 360 connected via component.

I'm pretty sure that nothing in the 1-07-07 update did anything to correct the non-standard VGA timings at 1080p. I'm having second thoughts about the Gefen adapter the more I think about it. Gefen admitted that there would be a "less than one frame per second lag" introduced by the conversion process. This could be a problem when it comes to video gaming. I'd have to be able to test it in person to know for sure.

I guess I'm back to waiting to see what happens with the "Microsoft HDMI A/V cable" that Dimension Plus continues to advertise for February 23rd. Unless I missed something though... there was no mention of this cable at CES.

I may very well just buy a good upconverting DVD player/recorder with HDMI to handle my DVD playing needs, and leave my XBox 360 connected via component.

I have seen no OFFICIAL announcement of an HDMI cable for the 360. From everything I've read, its impossible to get a digital HDMI out of the Xbox360's current AV port. Hence the reason for the "Zephyr" V2 X360 prototype. (Needs to be a new hardware design implementation versus a simple cable). I think the Dimension Plus site you are dealing with is either misinformed or that the cable is some type of transcoder/adapter similar to the Geffen in that it will take a current 360 AV signal and output it to a HDMI cable/signal.

I have seen no OFFICIAL announcement of an HDMI cable for the 360.

Neither have I. My guess was that if this was for real, we might hear someting about it during CES. Nary a peep came out of Microsoft, or any third party, about an HDMI A/V Cable/Adapter for the 360, as far as I know.

From everything I've read, its impossible to get a digital HDMI out of the Xbox360's current AV port.

I was firmly entrenched in the belief that it was impossible to get a digital HDMI signout of the the 360's A/V port as well. However, on one forum I frequent, a guy who was experienced in FPGA (Field Programmable Gate Array) programming thought that it was entirely possible that the 360's FPGA structure would allow something like this to be pulled off.

I don't know enough about this to know whether it's feasible or not, but he contends that XBox Live updating of the 360's FPGA is how Microsoft enabled 1080p from the 360. It sounds like a reasonably analogous operation, so my level of cynicism about it being possible dropped a notch or two... enough to make me keep my ear to the ground.

I think the Dimension Plus site you are dealing with is either misinformed or that the cable is some type of transcoder/adapter similar to the Geffen in that it will take a current 360 AV signal and output it to a HDMI cable/signal.

It's really hard to tell what information they're getting. There's a language barrier there, with them being a Dutch merchant, but they have made a reasonable attempt to communicate with me in English. They contend that they are getting an HDMI A/V cable for the 360 on the 23rd. Question is - what will it be, if anything? It could be another one of those Pelican HDMI cable fiascos... (the one where Pelican formerly called their component video connector an "HDMI" cable)... I don't know. I've decided to wait until Feb. 23rd and see what surfaces from this before I do anything.

Oh, Mad Catz reportedly admitted that they are working on an HDMI cable/adapter for the 360 also. The report I read from someone who attended the show where they announced this didn't have a time frame for a possible release though.

I'm pretty sure that nothing in the 1-07-07 update did anything to correct the non-standard VGA timings at 1080p. I'm having second thoughts about the Gefen adapter the more I think about it.What makes you say they're non-standard VGA timings? I think they're VESA standard Reduced Blanking timings. This allows a slower clock rate since less bandwidth is used up for blanking intervals to allow a CRT's electron gun to retrace the horizontal and vertical. LCD's and Plasma's don't need that.

My guess is that Component is simpler or more uniform with its signal and so there's not a problem w/ most sets. But VGA has a number of standards and many different possible timings along w/ a hand-shaking protocol. I suppose normal blanking would work w/ most sets, and so is more "standard" in that sense. But Reduced Blanking is a technical standard. I suppose there is a reason MS is using Reduced Blanking -- maybe they have to, to get VGA at 1080p. And that MS doesn't want to or can't tackle all the complexity of handling many VGA timings and the communication w/ sets to find supported ones and resolutions.

An inexpensive device/adapter/converter that could handle or change VGA timings would be great. From what I've read, Geffen doesn't seem up to the task. If they claim the Xbox VGA is non-standard, that sounds like an excuse. I was less than impressed (to be diplomatic) with their site and unable to figure out the true capablitlites of their products.

[I'm not a guru, but this is my understanding. Guru's feel free to correct.]

What makes you say they're non-standard VGA timings? I think they're VESA standard Reduced Blanking timings.

I think we already went through this in this thread and the 1080p thread. Their timings do not conform to VESA or any other known standard.

To add some weight to Khasha Roholahi's contention that the XBox 360's VGA output uses non-standard timings, I found this post from an AVS forum member (Krevnik) in another thread:

"What I did find is that the timings the 360 is using over VGA don't actually conform to any known standard. Not VESA, and not any others that I can dig up. So while there is still investigation to do, the problem does appear to be out-of-spec timings (other than resolution and vertical frequency) that panels are not liking, and either not being able to support DDC, or choosing to not implement the software end of it.

Edit: As an aside, it could also be a bug somewhere, even if it supports DDC, which creates incorrect timings. These timings, which don't conform to a standard, will not work on panels that are more strict regarding the standards than others."

Here's the thread if you're interested: XBox 360 1080p incompatibility thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/printthread.php?t=743863&page=4&pp=30)Thanks, I'll go to that thread. But, I am fairly sure it is using VESA Reduced Blanking timings. The reason: The Sony V2500 doesn't "officially" support 1080p VGA. Yet, it can be made to work from a PC _only_ with Reduced Blanking either with PowerStrip or if CVT-Reduced Blanking can be chosen with a graphic card. And it works with the Xbox 360's VGA.

What makes you say they're non-standard VGA timings?

The claims of Gefen Tech Support, and others loosely assembled quotes (I'd say three or four others.... I need to assemble a list of these and source them, for what they're worth) from others in various articles I've read. I don't have any direct knowledge of this myself.

An inexpensive device/adapter/converter that could handle or change VGA timings would be great. From what I've read, Geffen doesn't seem up to the task. If they claim the Xbox VGA is non-standard, that sounds like an excuse. I was less than impressed (to be diplomatic) with their site and unable to figure out the true capablitlites of their products.

[I'm not a guru, but this is my understanding. Guru's feel free to correct.]

It would appear to me that Gefen designed their Component/VGA -> adapter to work with VESA standards at all resolutions. I can't really blame them for that. From what I'm reading now, they just about would have had to built in (or coded in) a provision for handling the XBox 360's timings at 1080p (I don't know why the timings are "standard" at 720p, yet "non-standard" at 1080p). They weren't building the adapter as an XBox 360 adapter, but rather, a universal adapter.

One would think that their market research would have shown them the potential for this product with the 360 market in particular, and have made provisions for handling this need. Obviously they missed this opportunity to broaden the appeal of their product. I don't know that there's anything that can be done to this adapter, software wise, that would allow it to work with the 360 at 1080p.

Thanks, I'll go to that thread. But, I am fairly sure it is using VESA Reduced Blanking timings. The reason: The Sony V2500 doesn't "officially" support 1080p VGA. Yet, it can be made to work from a PC _only_ with Reduced Blanking either with PowerStrip or if CVT-Reduced Blanking can be chosen with a graphic card. And it works with the Xbox 360's VGA.

Have you checked the timings of the Xbox VGA, as Krevnik and Gefen did? If so, what are they, and what does the standard say they should be?

Your inference looks like it's based on the same sort of logic that told us the 360 uses sync-on-green - namely, two separate pieces of data which may or may not be related. The thought you've put into this is appreciated, but your experience really doesn't tell us much about what standards (if any) the Xbox is following.

The 360 doesn't work with a Gefen, or the SXRD XBR2, or some other displays known to accept 1080p over VGA, so I'm leaning towards MS didn't follow accepted standards until somebody actually shows otherwise.

I asked Gefen if it would be possible for their VGA -> HDMI converter to receive a firmware update which would allow it to work with the XBox 360's non-standard 1080p VGA timings.
This was their reply:

"The component audio to HDMI adapter has no processing abilities. It just does a straight analog to digital conversion. For extra processing and scaling, please look at the VGA to DVI Scaler (http://www.gefen.com/kvm/product.jsp?prod_id=3557) or the HDMate Scaler (http://www.gefen.com/kvm/product.jsp?prod_id=4173) / Home Theater Scaler (http://www.gefen.com/kvm/product.jsp?prod_id=4174)."

These solutions run $299 to $449... think I'll wait for Microsoft to either standardize their 1080p VGA timings or release their own HDMI adapter for the 360!

Have you checked the timings of the Xbox VGA, as Krevnik and Gefen did? If so, what are they, and what does the standard say they should be?

Your inference looks like it's based on the same sort of logic that told us the 360 uses sync-on-green - namely, two separate pieces of data which may or may not be related. The thought you've put into this is appreciated, but your experience really doesn't tell us much about what standards (if any) the Xbox is following.

The 360 doesn't work with a Gefen, or the SXRD XBR2, or some other displays known to accept 1080p over VGA, so I'm leaning towards MS didn't follow accepted standards until somebody actually shows otherwise.I don't have the equipment to see the exact xbox vga timings. I've read the entire 1080p compatibility thread and have been looking for any description of the timings and haven't found anything. I responded to Krevnik's post, but haven't received a reply. He didn't fully describe the settings.

My inference is _not_ the "same sort of logic that told us the 360 uses sync-on-green". That was based solely on the sony manuals saying they didn't support sync-on-green, so it was assumed that's what the xbox was using. I'm sorry if you have trouble following my logic, but while still an inference, it's fairly strong. The _only_ 1080p vga timing that work w/ the v2500's is reduced blanking. The xbox 360's vga works w/ the v2500. There are a number of reduced blanking timings that work (that differ somewhat from the vesa spreadsheet), so the xbox may not be using the exact vesa ones, but likely it is using ones that are close.

If geffen's product handles reduced blanking, it should work w/ the xbox 360; apparantly it doesn't work w/ the 360.

If you have actual evidence to the contrary for any of the above, please post. Or feel free to blame MS for non-standard timings. There's little info posted on geffen's site -- saying timings are non-standard because they can't get their product to work w/ them is meaningless. Reduced blanking is suitable for lcd's and plasmas and is not at all non-standard.

My inference is _not_ the "same sort of logic that told us the 360 uses sync-on-green". That was based solely on the sony manuals saying they didn't support sync-on-green, so it was assumed that's what the xbox was using. I'm sorry if you have trouble following my logic, but while still an inference, it's fairly strong. The _only_ 1080p vga timing that work w/ the v2500's is reduced blanking. The xbox 360's vga works w/ the v2500.

The sync-on-green logic went like this: My TV doesn't work with this type of signal, the 360 doesn't work with my TV, so the 360 must be using this type of signal. Your logic says: My TV works with this type of signal, the 360 works with my TV, so the 360 must be sending this type of signal. Oh, and it must be following applicable standards to boot.

The 360's VGA works with 1080p TVs that don't require CVT-RB settings from a PC. Isn't that a flaw in your theory?

If geffen's product handles reduced blanking, it should work w/ the xbox 360;

It should? Based on what info?

Or feel free to blame MS for non-standard timings. There's little info posted on geffen's site -- saying timings are non-standard because they can't get their product to work w/ them is meaningless.

If it was just Gefen, you'd have a valid point here. But it's not.

The sync-on-green logic went like this: My TV doesn't work with this type of signal, the 360 doesn't work with my TV, so the 360 must be using this type of signal. Your logic says: My TV works with this type of signal, the 360 works with my TV, so the 360 must be sending this type of signal. Oh, and it must be following applicable standards to boot.My TV _only_ works with this type signal. An inference drawn from an exclusive positive result is strong; from a non-exclusive negative result weak.

The 360's VGA works with 1080p TVs that don't require CVT-RB settings from a PC. Isn't that a flaw in your theory?See above. What would break the inference would be if a TV didn't support RB and yet worked w/ the 360's VGA.

If it was just Gefen, you'd have a valid point here. But it's not.If Geffen's ADC doesn't support Reduced Blanking and other TV's also do not, what does that show other than RB isn't supported by Geffen and other TV's? That RB isn't as widely supported as Normal Blanking? That doesn't make RB non-standard. RB allows a slower clock rate as less bandwidth is used for CRT electron gun retraces. It makes sense for non-CRT displays and there may be hardware or other restrictions causing MS to use this timing. I don't get your point about my point.

I posted re: the Xbox 360's 1080p VGA to be of help to other's trying to figure things out. While the inference that the 360's VGA is using RB is valid; it's not necessarily sound because it's not known with certainty that the V2500 _only_ works w/ 1080p VGA with RB. But it's near certain as many other timings (including SoG, and other blanking's) have been tried by V2500 owners. I'm not making seat of the pants speculation but have made an effort to provide evidence and reasoning. I'm surprised to have to go back and forth explaining common sense logic on an Audio Video Science forum.

Eric and rconn2, you are both over my head with this discussion. I'm compelled by what you're saying to try to learn more about display technologies and conventions.

rconn2, I'll say this... Gefen isn't the only third party vendor I've seen characterize the XBox 360's 1080p VGA timings as "non-standard". It sounds to me like the reason you guys are having this dispute is because there hasn't been an agreement upon what constitutes the standard. I've heard it said that the XBox 360 doesn't meet the VESA standard for VGA at 1080p. Could it be that is true, yet the VESA standard doesn't fully fit the discussion where HDTV's are concerned?

If Geffen's ADC doesn't support Reduced Blanking and other TV's also do not, what does that show other than RB isn't supported by Geffen and other TV's?

That hasn't actually been shown though. All that's been shown is that they don't work with the 360. You're assuming they don't support RB, when in fact they might. It's not something that would require additional expense or bleeding edge hardware. Standards that include RB have been around for at least three or four years. Who knows if MS is using them. We don't - not even if we assume your other inferences are all true.

It sounds to me like the reason you guys are having this dispute is because there hasn't been an agreement upon what constitutes the standard.

A standard is a standard. There really can't be debate about that.

I don't feel like registering at Gefen's forum, but you could ask them if they support reduced blanking signals, and/or what exactly about the timings from the 360 is unstandard and giving them a problem.

A standard is a standard. There really can't be debate about that.

How many standards are there in regard to this? It seems that VESA standards are the most commonly accepted, and it certainly sounds to me like the XBox 360 doesn't meet them... at least at 1080p VGA.

I don't feel like registering at Gefen's forum, but you could ask them if they support reduced blanking signals, and/or what exactly about the timings from the 360 is unstandard and giving them a problem.

I'll do it!

It'd be great if MS or anyone able to directly test would just give us the details of the 360's vga. I don't know why it's such a secret. I've been curious about it and have been looking for the details all over the web and have found nothing specific.

But w/out that, I again restate that it's almost certainly Reduced Blanking. And I don't know why this is hard to accept -- the evidence while not absolute is very compelling. Again, IF the V2500 only accepts 1080p VGA with RB, and if a 1080p VGA signal works, it _must_ be using RB. This is basic, indusputible logic. It all rests on the first premise.

It's been shown that RB does work w/ the v2500; and no one has been able to get any other timing to work (I know others on this forum and the Euro avforums.com have tried). I've also purchased an Extron that converts vga signals, and can't get 1080p vga to work w/ normal or wide blanking. SoG and Composite Sync have also been ruled out. So, that first premise is very probably true.

The settings in the VESA spreadsheet for 1920 x 1080 @ 60hz w/ RB work w/ the V2500. Also settings for front and back porch, h and v frequency and clock rate close to that standard work. When I use the term "standard", I'm referring to VESA RB (or near enough). That doesn't mean RB is commonly used even if it is a standard. So the 360 could be described as using a "weird" timing by not being typical, yet it still be a standard one.

Now if we could find an ADC that handles a RB signal and outputs DVI or HDMI, or converts RB into normal blanking, then we'd know for sure.

How many standards are there in regard to this? It seems that VESA standards are the most commonly accepted, and it certainly sounds to me like the XBox 360 doesn't meet them... at least at 1080p VGA. I'll do it!Let us know. Even a non-answer would be an answer.

Let us know. Even a non-answer would be an answer.

Will do... they haven't responded to it yet, but I've noticed they don't have much to say in their forum from Friday through Sunday. I expect to get some sort of answer Monday. They haven't left one of my questions unanswered yet, and the thread that this question is in is the second hottest thread on the forum.

Much to my surprise, I did get a response from a Gefen support rep to my query today. I asked if the Gefen VGA -> HDMI adapter could handle reduced blanking and just what was non-standard about the 360's VGA output at 1080p. Here's the response:

The non-standard 1080p on the xbox360 has caused problems in a lot of HDTV's. The compaud-2-hdmi adapter is a brainless unit. It does no compensation or processing of the signal so it won't be able to fix the problem.

The VGA to DVI Scaler (another of their products at $299.95!)), on the other hand, will be able to scale and output a proper signal to your HDTV. Audio will just have to be handled separately.

So we have our answer -- a non-answer from Geffen! They completely side-stepped both your question about RB and what was non-standard. They basically said... it's MS's fault and other's are having problems too so it's not just us, blah. What we can infer from their _answer_: their product can't handle RB. Being brainless isn't the issue (whatever that means, it's hardware); being limited in functionality and unable to handle RB signals is the issue. RB is just a timing like Normal and Wide blanking. And there are VESA standards for each of these.

My low opinion of Geffen is now only further confirmed. At least I learned something useful on this thread. Out of curiousity, you may want to ask them why they won't answer your question. But, why bother... better to look elsewhere for answers and solutions.

So we have our answer -- a non-answer from Geffen! They completely side-stepped both your question about RB and what was non-standard. They basically said... it's MS's fault and other's are having problems too so it's not just us, blah. What we can infer from their _answer_: their product can't handle RB.

I wouldn't infer that from their answer. They answered a previous question from Onlooker that had nothing to with RB the same way. In fact, this answer almost looks like a copy and paste job.

If non-answers = answers, then what does Microsoft's total lack of any answer say?

Being brainless isn't the issue (whatever that means, it's hardware); being limited in functionality and unable to handle RB signals is the issue. RB is just a timing like Normal and Wide blanking. And there are VESA standards for each of these.

And even if we assume the 360 uses RB, it doesn't mean MS is following those standards.

I wouldn't infer that from their answer. They answered a previous question from Onlooker that had nothing to with RB the same way. In fact, this answer almost looks like a copy and paste job.

I agree... it looked like a cut & paste answer. Either that or the respondant didn't know how to answer it, wasn't willing to dive into it.

If non-answers = answers, then what does Microsoft's total lack of any answer say?

It tells me that they don't want to open up this can of worms with end-users. They want us to be content with what we have, at least until they have something better.

I wouldn't infer that from their answer. They answered a previous question from Onlooker that had nothing to with RB the same way. In fact, this answer almost looks like a copy and paste job.

If non-answers = answers, then what does Microsoft's total lack of any answer say?

And even if we assume the 360 uses RB, it doesn't mean MS is following those standards.Of course you wouldn't agree. Your posts continually squirm away from any reasonable consideration other than MS is to blame for using weird timings rather than discovering a fix or challenging those making products that some hoped (through ambiguous descriptions) would provide a fix. This is a fruitless discussion.

Of course you wouldn't agree. Your posts continually squirm away from any reasonable consideration other than MS is to blame for using weird timings rather than discovering a fix or challenging those making products that some hoped (through ambiguous descriptions) would provide a fix.

There's no fix to be discovered here by us. That's up to MS - any word from them? And why would I go around challenging manufacturers to make their stuff work with stuff that doesn't even follow standards? Because rconn of AVS forum says they're just making excuses? LOL.

Eric, I don't know if you or rconn might have posted this question at Gefen's forum, but here's what was posted today in response to reduced blanking and what is non-standard about the XBox 360's VGA timings:

"Q: So what does that mean? Does the Gefen VGA -> HDMI adapter support reduced blanking signals, or not? In what way is the 360 VGA signal nonstandard?"

"A: What are reduced blanking signals?

The Xbox360 has no standard timings. This involves things like back porch, front porch and the like"

What does this say? That the respondant doesn't know the technical end of their product, although his title is "Technical Support and Sales" (I would guess he's more of a salesman). If he doesn't know what is meant by reduced blanking, how much stock can you put in anything else he says, at least from a technical standpoint?

Here's Gefen's tech support's latest response to the XBox 360 incompatibility at 1080p discussion at their forum:

"The issue with the Xbox360 is not reduced blanking signals. It is a timing issue."

It's clear that their hands are tied in terms of doing anything to rectify this with their VGA > HDMI adapter. I don't see Microsoft doing anything to "standardize" their VGA timings either. I've given up on this converter as a possible solution.

Of course you wouldn't agree. Your posts continually squirm away from any reasonable consideration other than MS is to blame for using weird timings rather than discovering a fix or challenging those making products that some hoped (through ambiguous descriptions) would provide a fix. This is a fruitless discussion.

Here's a post that was made on XBox.com's forum on the "official" HDMI adapter thread. I'm not sure whether this actually proves that the XBox 360's VGA timings are non-standard, but it does seem unusual. I hope some of you who are more knowledgeable on this could put it in perspective:

"Over on the Gefen forums the gefen techs are saying the VGA output on the 360 is broken and it's the timings that are wrong and not standard causing no signal or washed out blurry results.

I tried the VGA route (Panasonic 50PHD8 Plasma) and used the service menu to get the H/V frequency information and can confirm that they are not standard, @ 60hz video, it is showing something like 57.85 hz which isn't even 59.94.

Come on Ms, 1000's are suffering here, please sort out the VGA!"

Well, the VGA works w/ the V2500's and XBR2/3's, and the signal is neither washed out nor blurry over the V2500.

Does the VGA work w/ your Panasonic at 1080p? Or is 57.85 just what it's showing as the signal w/ out displaying it properly? There's a fairly wide range of vertical frequencies I can get to work on my V2500 w/ RB but not sure I've gotten anything to work that low. I haven't gotten anything to work w/ Normal Blanking... but also don't think I've tried a Vert frequency that low. The VESA standard is 59.94 so anything way off from that would be non-standard. The question is whether your reported 57.85 is accurate or (esp. if the VGA doesn't work) is thrown off by the RB which allows a slower overall clock rate.

Re: Geffen. Their responses, as reported here, only continue to raise questions, imho -- about them. If they claim the 360's VGA is using non-standard timings, then they should state how they are non-standard. Since the VGA does work w/ many sets, then obviously, standard or not (and that's up in the air), it can be made to work.

My faintly hoped for dreams have been shattered... Dimension Plus is now listing the Microsoft HDMI A/V cable as - "This product is not deliverable". It's not even indexed on their 360 accessories page anymore. If I didn't already have the link to the previous listing for it, I wouldn't even have this information.

I was already prepared for this to crumble, I just wasn't sure it would be this soon. I'm going to write them and see what allegedly happened.

To clarify what's going on with Dimension Plus' listing for a a Microsoft XBox 360 HDMI A/V cable, I received the following reply (in English) from a representative at Dimension Plus. This was in response to an e-mail I sent them, asking about the change in status from "February 23rd" to "This product is not deliverable."

"we haven't received any new information, so we decided to not put a date on it until we get a concrete date again from our suppliers."

I guess it's not quite as fatal as I was initially inclined to believe. I'm at the mercy of free online translation utilities, and they don't do a good job with Dutch to English. None the less, I'm still highly sceptical of this ever coming about.