Actually "standard line level" output for cd is two VOLTS. At the time cd was introduced, that was a lot higher than most tape decks or tuners. But driving an amplifier's inputs "hotter" maximized s/n ratio. A (very) few (poorly designed) line stages were overloaded, however.

Actually the best thing to add to the next model version is a variable potentiometer style knob level control, so that we can adjust the tuner's line level output to our needs (and to compensate for varying station sound levels)...!

Master Thesis please ask your design engineer's department to add this instead of a fixed level output. It would be so much better and flexible that way! I will buy another second tuner if it has this plus the optical output. A digital coaxial output would also be nice to have in addition to optical output. Add a few extra bucks onto it if you have to to make this the best bang for the buck HD tuner available.

P.S. - Please don't make it a digital controlled level. Make it a simple old fashioned analog potentiometer level control tacked onto the audio line output stage. Simple and cheap to do!

Thank You!

Rebate offer on HDT-1 posted: EDITED: changed URL to current offer (sorry)

http://www.ibiquity.com/press_room/news_releases/2007/1020

problem is.......the referenced site has not posted the rebate form yet (as of Sunday 11:00 am)

Rebate offer on HDT-1 posted:


http://www.sangean.com/downloads/rebates/hdrebate.pdf

What? This link shows an old rebate offer... look at the qualified dates for the rebate. Long time past! This is not the new rebate form.

Sorry, I posted the wrong URL for the HD radio rebate.

Please see my edited post above.

Problem is, there seems to be a delay between the notification and actually posting the rebate form.

EDIT: it is posted now http://www.hdradio.com/2007_HDRadio_Rebate.pdf

Check this one out

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue30/sangean_hdt.htm

No one is complaining about the clock any more, is it fixed?

Check this one out

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue30/sangean_hdt.htm

No one is complaining about the clock any more, is it fixed?

The clock was a temporary issue with only a few lots, not the whole product. Once we found there to be a defect we immediately halted until we got the proper module. From my understanding at this point it depends more about the the age of inventory and such. . . but there should be no more shipping from our warehouse with this issue. Again I say should. . .

Crutchfield has the HDT-1 for $159.00 !!! (AFTER $40 mail in rebate) very tempting.

The clock was a temporary issue with only a few lots, not the whole product. Once we found there to be a defect we immediately halted until we got the proper module. From my understanding at this point it depends more about the the age of inventory and such. . . but there should be no more shipping from our warehouse with this issue. Again I say should. . .

Any way to change the clock parts in one that doesn't keep good time?

Crutchfield has the HDT-1 for $159.00 !!! (AFTER $40 mail in rebate) very tempting.

I was holding out for the new model with digital output but that price is going to be hard to resist.

Any way to change the clock parts in one that doesn't keep good time?

No, but you can send it in if you are that worried about it.

Actually, you know what. . . I was moved by the argument. . . I will not release the HDT-1X at all.

Any way to change the clock parts in one that doesn't keep good time?

No, but you can send it in if you are that worried about it.

And there was someone that asked about finding the software version. Ready your owners manual. I know it is difficult to do, but it is helpful and will tell you how to see your software version.

Master T, I'm beginning to wonder just where you fit in Sangean's food chain. Obviously outside the realm of customer service, I presume.

Master T, I'm beginning to wonder just where you fit in Sangean's food chain. Obviously outside the realm of customer service, I presume.
Wow. He's been super helpful -- what a great opportunity to have an insider like Master Thesus on the forum. What's your problem?

Actually, you know what. . . I was moved by the argument. . . I will not release the HDT-1X at all.
This was in reply to one of my posts. It was obviously light-hearted sarcasm and I didn't take offense so please don't respond on my behalf.

We have a Sangean "VIP" posting, answering questions, and making product changes that consider our input.

How cool is that??

-- Awaiting availability of the -1X ....

The Crutchfield web site has the HDT-1 on sale with a $40 rebate

Actually, you know what. . . I was moved by the argument. . . I will not release the HDT-1X at all.

Any way to change the clock parts in one that doesn't keep good time?

No, but you can send it in if you are that worried about it.

And there was someone that asked about finding the software version. Ready your owners manual. I know it is difficult to do, but it is helpful and will tell you how to see your software version.

Master T, I'm beginning to wonder just where you fit in Sangean's food chain. Obviously outside the realm of customer service, I presume.

I was the one asking about how to find the firmware version. I was taken back a wee bit by the snide answer, but I overlooked it (Technically, Master T was right). To be also honest, I did feel bad when I read his reply to it. I was and still fairly new to the forum and a new customer to the Sangean HDT-1 tuner and it was not that clear in the operating manual (which in all honesty also, I really only glanced at). The mention to how to view the firmware version is kind of buried and hidden in the instructions and easily missed if not really scrutinizing closely the details.

A simple "just press and hold the info button and it will enter the menu mode to see the firmware version" would have been nicer. But, I am not complaining. It does give the impression of bad customer relations though. But this has nothing to do with the tuner itself... so I ignore it.

I am new to the forum. But I have to say I just received my HDT-1 tuner to replace my older Yamaha TX-950.
What a difference, HD sounds much crisper without the hiss and much better bass and vocals are more pronounced. I even think the standard non HD sounds better than my Yamaha.
On the standard T type antenna that came with the Sangean I am picking up several HD stations in Boston.

Thanks for all the positive reviews which eventually influenced my decision to buy the HDT-1!
By the way are their any outside antenna's that people are using (and are happy with)?
I'm naow getting spoiled and want even more stations.
Thanks again.

I was the one asking about how to find the firmware version. I was taken back a wee bit by the snide answer, but I overlooked it (Technically, Master T was right). To be also honest, I did feel bad when I read his reply to it. I was and still fairly new to the forum and a new customer to the Sangean HDT-1 tuner and it was not that clear in the operating manual (which in all honesty also, I really only glanced at). The mention to how to view the firmware version is kind of buried and hidden in the instructions and easily missed if not really scrutinizing closely the details.

A simple "just press and hold the info button and it will enter the menu mode to see the firmware version" would have been nicer. But, I am not complaining. It does give the impression of bad customer relations though. But this has nothing to do with the tuner itself... so I ignore it.

I am sorry if it sounded that way. I must not have eaten my Wheaties that day. I do wish though that more people would read the instruction manual. It really is useful and offers answers to most questions asked. If after that you still have questions I will be more than happy to help you.

And quite honestly I couldn't recall how to get it. . . We were told that it was not important and not to spend time learning it. As for my position in the food chain, I am Sales & Marketing, Customer Service, Web Designer, IT guy. . .and even handle shipping from time to time. I wear many hats here and have worked hard to get you guys what you want, with reasonable sucess I think.

And I do appreciate you all trying to keep me in check. If I step out again. . . be sure to let me know.

I am sorry if it sounded that way. I must not have eaten my Wheaties that day. I do wish though that more people would read the instruction manual. It really is useful and offers answers to most questions asked. If after that you still have questions I will be more than happy to help you.

And quite honestly I couldn't recall how to get it. . . We were told that it was not important and not to spend time learning it. As for my position in the food chain, I am Sales & Marketing, Customer Service, Web Designer, IT guy. . .and even handle shipping from time to time. I wear many hats here and have worked hard to get you guys what you want, with reasonable sucess I think.

And I do appreciate you all trying to keep me in check. If I step out again. . . be sure to let me know.

Master T, don't sweat it, we all have those days when things get you all nerved up. I echo the sentiments that we are lucky and glad to have you here on the forums to support the Sangean tuners! Apology accepted but was not needed. I would have still went on my merry way with the Sangean HDT-1 tuner anyway in whatever direction it ultimately takes me in. So far it is mostly positive although I wish I would have qualified for the $40 reabte which I missed by ordering a few days too early... Murphy's Law always gets me :-( !

My name is Clayton and I work at Sangean. I noticed the thread since we are always looking to see what people think about or upcoming models and such and figured I would end the confusion.

The HDT-1 arrived in our warehouse yesterday and is now shipping to dealers. For those of you who ordered them already should begin receiving them in a week or so, and the others can begin ordering them.

The reason it doesn't have SPDIF is that HD Radio and SPDIF are somehow conflicting. It seems to result in poor AM HD reception. It is a techinical drawback of HD AM and we at Sangean are working hard to make sure our next HD models can have optical without suffering from this problem.

Otherwise I am flattered that people are interested and look forward to hearing your feelings on the product in your homes.

Did you know that the Cambridge Soundworks 820HD radio has an optical SPDIF digital output and it works great? The only hoky thing they did was require that you have to plug in an earphone mini-plug into the earphones jack to silence the speakers because the optical output is also controlled by the radios volume and tone controls versus being a true fixed line out. I hear no static or interference on AM with this unit. So I don't know why other manufactureres could not do same. The 820HD sounds really good but it is not as sensitive as the Sangean units. Oh well.

Did you know that the Cambridge Soundworks 820HD radio has an optical SPDIF digital output and it works great? The only hoky thing they did was require that you have to plug in an earphone mini-plug into the earphones jack to silence the speakers because the optical output is also controlled by the radios volume and tone controls versus being a true fixed line out. I hear no static or interference on AM with this unit. So I don't know why other manufactureres could not do same. The 820HD sounds really good but it is not as sensitive as the Sangean units. Oh well.

I am aware that it is shipping, but they had 6 months to fix it. This post is quite old in terms of the technological advances made to HD Radio.

Master Theseus-

I could not find earlier posts on this question if there were any.

Is it likely possible to have an HDT-1 modified to add the S/PDIF output by Sangean, or is the new model different inside in major ways that would make the modification impossible?

Thank you for any information you can provide.

I am aware that it is shipping, but they had 6 months to fix it. This post is quite old in terms of the technological advances made to HD Radio.

Yeah, but speaking as an engineer myself, I know that it was able to be done to begin with... only maybe at a higher price point. Anyway, I am waiting for Sangean's next version and will buy that one when it is available (as long as they don't jump the price way up). I am sad to say that I wound up returning my first HDT-1 for a refund as it was not working out for my situation. The overly loud line output combined with an overly loud WCBS 101.1 HD2 channel distorted terribly because it was overdriving the input to my Pioneer VSX-49TXi inputs. And also it seems like I got one of the units that had a slow time clock.
I will wait for the next version and hope it has all the main fixes this forum has asked for. Main updates pertinent for me to purchase are:

- Standardized fixed Line level output (or an adjustable one!).
- Digital line output (optical and/or coax).
- Fix the clock to keep accurate time.
- Manually continously adjustable display brightness from full off to full bright.
- One button access to station presets (instead of two buttons press).
- would be nice to have a capacitor to hold voltage on clock time so that we don't have to reset the clock time if lose power or moving unit to another room.
- minor concern, but can you get rid of the purplish tinge marring the otherwise nice blue background on the display?


Thank You!

Good list! Here are a couple more of my own:
How about having it not display the time if the clock hasn't been set yet? My microwave works that way.
It'd be nice if it could revert to the power state it was in when power is lost.
That second one is particularly annoying; instead of an alarm clock, I use an X10 module to turn my bedroom stereo on. I have to leave the HDT-1 on 24x7 for this to work and even then there's the problem that if there's a power failure in the middle of the night, it stays off and I'm late for work.

+ remote DC turn on/off via mini plug (turn on to last settings)
+ rackmount option

Yeah, but speaking as an engineer myself, I know that it was able to be done to begin with... only maybe at a higher price point. Anyway, I am waiting for Sangean's next version and will buy that one when it is available (as long as they don't jump the price way up). I am sad to say that I wound up returning my first HDT-1 for a refund as it was not working out for my situation. The overly loud line output combined with an overly loud WCBS 101.1 HD2 channel distorted terribly because it was overdriving the input to my Pioneer VSX-49TXi inputs. And also it seems like I got one of the units that had a slow time clock.
I will wait for the next version and hope it has all the main fixes this forum has asked for. Main updates pertinent for me to purchase are:

- Standardized fixed Line level output (or an adjustable one!). Output fixed to 600mV.
- Digital line output (optical and/or coax). Yes. SPDIF
- Fix the clock to keep accurate time. Fixed on both HDT-1 and HDT-1X.
- Manually continously adjustable display brightness from full off to full bright. The HDT-1X is slightly adjustable and OFF when the unit is in standby. HDT-1 will remain same until all part stock is depleted.
- One button access to station presets (instead of two buttons press). This was not changed, don't know why.
- would be nice to have a capacitor to hold voltage on clock time so that we don't have to reset the clock time if lose power or moving unit to another room. This was not changed. The HDT-1X you will not see the clock when the unit is in standby. HDT-1 is same as before.
- minor concern, but can you get rid of the purplish tinge marring the otherwise nice blue background on the display? That is an effect of the contrast level and from my understanding there is no immediate fix other than changing display.


Thank You!

Yeah, but speaking as an engineer myself, I know that it was able to be done to begin with... only maybe at a higher price point. Anyway, I am waiting for Sangean's next version and will buy that one when it is available (as long as they don't jump the price way up). I am sad to say that I wound up returning my first HDT-1 for a refund as it was not working out for my situation. The overly loud line output combined with an overly loud WCBS 101.1 HD2 channel distorted terribly because it was overdriving the input to my Pioneer VSX-49TXi inputs. And also it seems like I got one of the units that had a slow time clock.
I will wait for the next version and hope it has all the main fixes this forum has asked for. Main updates pertinent for me to purchase are:

- Standardized fixed Line level output (or an adjustable one!). Output fixed to 600mV.
- Digital line output (optical and/or coax). Yes. SPDIF
- Fix the clock to keep accurate time. Fixed on both HDT-1 and HDT-1X.
- Manually continously adjustable display brightness from full off to full bright. The HDT-1X is slightly adjustable and OFF when the unit is in standby. HDT-1 will remain same until all part stock is depleted.
- One button access to station presets (instead of two buttons press). This was not changed, don't know why.
- would be nice to have a capacitor to hold voltage on clock time so that we don't have to reset the clock time if lose power or moving unit to another room. This was not changed. The HDT-1X you will not see the clock when the unit is in standby. HDT-1 is same as before.
- minor concern, but can you get rid of the purplish tinge marring the otherwise nice blue background on the display? That is an effect of the contrast level and from my understanding there is no immediate fix other than changing display.


Thank You!
I forgot to add to that list one more important feature:

- Ability to set tuner to receive in analog mode only! Very important function at this time when we need to keep it locked into analog mode (AM and FM).

Thank You!

I forgot to add to that list one more important feature:

- Ability to set tuner to receive in analog mode only! Very important function at this time when we need to keep it locked into analog mode (AM and FM).

Thank You!

Feature available in the HDT-1X.

Regarding the excessive output levels, I compared the HDT-1 and my Yamaha T-85 tuner, using test tones and an FM transmitter. The HDT-1's output level was 3X (10 dB) higher than the T-85's.

I'll try to test a couple other tuners this weekend.

Regarding the excessive output levels, I compared the HDT-1 and my Yamaha T-85 tuner, using test tones and an FM transmitter. The HDT-1's output level was 3X (10 dB) higher than the T-85's.

I'll try to test a couple other tuners this weekend.

We are getting a tool that will allow us to fix this here in the states. As soon as we have it I will announce where you can send it.

Hello! Sure wish I had found this forum a week ago before I ordered and received (on 5-9) a new HDT-1 tuner. That $40 rebate got me.

One thing it sure needs is a way to force analog. A couple of the FM stations here sound much better analog. Before the radio switches to HD the audio is clear and clean, then when the HD switches in, one station has no highs above about 6 kHz, the other distorts badly on bass peaks.

Will any of the new control features like forced analog be available as a firmware update, or a controller board swap?

Also does this radio have C-QUAM AM Stereo? On the last remaining AM-ST station we have here and the main AMer I listen to, I tune it in, sound is good, clear and clean for about 10 seconds, then the noise increases, the highs go away, and the audio sounds sort-of out-of-phase between the channels, but I don't hear much if any separation. Compared to my 20+ year old Sony SRF-A100 that sounds crystal clear with excellent separation on the commercials, bumper music and jingles. More of a curiosity at this point since that station is likely going digital soon. But until then whatever the Sangean is doing or switching to, it really degrades the sound. Sure wish I could turn that auto mode whatever it is off too.

THANKS!

We are getting a tool that will allow us to fix this here in the states. As soon as we have it I will announce where you can send it.

If you send it in to have that fixed, as well as having the clock fixed, would it take long? Is there a local center in LA County?

An issue with my 3 day old HDT-1 I am hearing as I type this... listening to a strong daytime power local non-HD mono AM station and am hearing a crackling, popping clipping type distortion occasionally. I don't hear that with other radios I have. Mine is the ver. 1.3f. Is this a normal quirk with this tuner? Sounds pretty bad right now on voice peaks while they are doing news.

Ed...
You've gotta remember the tuner's output level is 10db louder than normal line level (this'll be fixed in the HDT-1X), so something in your amp might be clipping.

Hmmm,, tuner output too high by 10 dB(!) possibly overloading my Pioneer receiver. I don't hear it on most stations. I suppose it might be just on the threshold of clipping on those that don't. Guess I will have to put together an attenuator to avoid modding the innards of my BRAND NEW tuner and voiding the warranty. Sounds to me like this Sangean needed a bit more R&D work before it was sold to the public.

Hmmm,, tuner output too high by 10 dB(!) possibly overloading my Pioneer receiver. I don't hear it on most stations. I suppose it might be just on the threshold of clipping on those that don't. Guess I will have to put together an attenuator to avoid modding the innards of my BRAND NEW tuner and voiding the warranty. Sounds to me like this Sangean needed a bit more R&D work before it was sold to the public.

That is what we were talking about. The factory is sending us the tools neccessary to adjust the output levels to the proper level. Once the tool is here (in Los Angeles, CA) I will be notifying all of you how to get this fix.

We have determined that this output problem is not a defect as much as it was a bad design, so unfortunately I could not get them to pay for this fix, but we will likely offer a small fix service for likely $25 including shipping.

We will also be arranging so that we can replace the defective module that is making the clock loose 5 min/week. This is considered a defect and will be repaired under warranty agreement for those that wish it. In this case all you have to pay is the shipping of the unit to Sangean America. We will pay for the return shipping.

Master Theseus-

Did you see my earlier question about whether the HDT-1 model could in fact be modified at your facility to add the S/PDIF output? I am assuming we would need to pay for the modification, of course. Thanks.

That is what we were talking about. The factory is sending us the tools neccessary to adjust the output levels to the proper level. Once the tool is here (in Los Angeles, CA) I will be notifying all of you how to get this fix.

We have determined that this output problem is not a defect as much as it was a bad design, so unfortunately I could not get them to pay for this fix, but we will likely offer a small fix service for likely $25 including shipping.

We will also be arranging so that we can replace the defective module that is making the clock loose 5 min/week. This is considered a defect and will be repaired under warranty agreement for those that wish it. In this case all you have to pay is the shipping of the unit to Sangean America. We will pay for the return shipping.


I realize this is premature but any idea what the turn around time might be on these fixes? I'm in NY, near NYC. Also for those of us who have early units which will do C-Quam, I would hope a firmwear fix (No more C-Quam) wouldn't be part of the repair? Glad I still have all of the orignal packing material and the boxes.

Theseus...
$25? While it's semi-reasonable, for that much, I'd just wait for the HDT-1X.

Btw, making a custom cable that attenuates the signal by 10db would cost less then a buck (resistors, electrical tape and solder are real cheap).

Theseus...
$25? While it's semi-reasonable, for that much, I'd just wait for the HDT-1X.

Btw, making a custom cable that attenuates the signal by 10db would cost less then a buck (resistors, electrical tape and solder are real cheap).

The major reason for the fee is shipping. This item is a little pricey to ship, no matter where. I will admit there is a little profit in there, but little on average.

And as mentioned, this is the answer for now. I might be able to work out a better deal, but that is all I could get from them.

As for the SPDIF, there is no fix available here. You would need to upgrade to the other model.

The expected turn around time, depending on volume would likely be about 3 weeks. We strive for a 5-10 day turn-around, but we expect that the clock issue would require a little more time.

Regarding the excessive output levels, I compared the HDT-1 and my Yamaha T-85 tuner, using test tones and an FM transmitter. The HDT-1's output level was 3X (10 dB) higher than the T-85's.

I'll try to test a couple other tuners this weekend.
I measured two other tuners. The HDT-1 was 7 dB hotter than one and 12 dB hotter than the other, so 10 dB seems like a good average.

You can make a 10 dB attenuator out of two resistors as follows:

INPUT ----- 3.9K --+-- 1.8K ----- GROUND

The junction of the two resistors is the output. You'll need two attenuators for stereo.

I measured two other tuners. The HDT-1 was 7 dB hotter than one and 12 dB hotter than the other, so 10 dB seems like a good average.

You can make a 10 dB attenuator out of two resistors as follows:

INPUT ----- 3.9K --+-- 1.8K ----- GROUND

The junction of the two resistors is the output. You'll need two attenuators for stereo.
I built this attenuator. The actual attenuation with the HDT-1 was 13 dB instead of 10 dB, which implies that the tuner's output impedance is somewhat higher than I expected. A "safer" design could be made with higher resistance values:

INPUT ----- 22K --+-- 10K ----- GROUND

I didn't notice any distortion with my original design, so I'll probably leave it the way it is.

Thanks for the guidance for the resistor vaslues.. saved me the time doing the experimenting. That is how I will resolve it. My clock seems to keep time OK so I won't be sending it back for that.

The $25 plus the cost of shipping it there to fix a design defect with the output level pretty much eats up the $40 rebate that got me to buy one in the first place!

Regarding the clock, I do wonder why didn't they use the same RDS clock time data that the Delco radio in my 2002 Trailblazer uses to set the clock? On the Delco you push two buttons simultaneously and bingo the clock sets. That could be made automatic I would think.

Thanks for the guidance for the resistor vaslues.. saved me the time doing the experimenting. That is how I will resolve it. My clock seems to keep time OK so I won't be sending it back for that.

The $25 plus the cost of shipping it there to fix a design defect with the output level pretty much eats up the $40 rebate that got me to buy one in the first place!

Regarding the clock, I do wonder why didn't they use the same RDS clock time data that the Delco radio in my 2002 Trailblazer uses to set the clock? On the Delco you push two buttons simultaneously and bingo the clock sets. That could be made automatic I would think.

There is one major reason, and that it that something like 98% of broadcasters don't broadcast the RDS clock time signal. We do have this feature in other models.

We are actually experimenting with automatic clock settings using the HD Radio signal. Rumor has it that each data pack is coded with GPS time so that the radio would place the packets in the proper order sequence. If this is true we are trying to hack into this signal to provide accurate time keeping.

And again, I do appologise for the trouble of the high outputs. From what we could tell the hot output was only a problem with a few select receiver models and not the issue it seems to be. I would ask that if you do actually experience problems with this that you e-mail me at clayton@sangean.com so that I can report this to the factory and see if we can take any further actions to remedy this problem. (Repairing for free or without the fee).

After continued discussions and the apparent increase in complaints we have changed our position and have decided to handle the output levels as a defect. We still don't consider it a defect, as it is performing as desiged, but that our design was flawed.

Once we have the parts & tools to do so, we will be conducting warranty repairs on the defective HDT-1. If you have an HDT-1 with either the bad clock time, or you are experiencing the problem of high output levels Keep an eye on this post. Once we are able to handle such repairs it will be announced in a seperate forum.

We will cover the shipping and all parts & labor associated with these defects. As an added binefit we will also make the backlight adjustement for you upon request.

I am happy that we could come to this conclusion and am happy I could work hard for all of you to resolve this problem.

Thanks again for all your help and assistance.

There is one major reason, and that it that something like 98% of broadcasters don't broadcast the RDS clock time signal. We do have this feature in other models.

We are actually experimenting with automatic clock settings using the HD Radio signal. Rumor has it that each data pack is coded with GPS time so that the radio would place the packets in the proper order sequence. If this is true we are trying to hack into this signal to provide accurate time keeping.

And again, I do appologise for the trouble of the high outputs. From what we could tell the hot output was only a problem with a few select receiver models and not the issue it seems to be. I would ask that if you do actually experience problems with this that you e-mail me at clayton@sangean.com so that I can report this to the factory and see if we can take any further actions to remedy this problem. (Repairing for free or without the fee).

My understanding of the clock setting is that it is indeed a spec in HD, and is set by GPS. MUCH more accurate than RDS. Tom, CE from WOR in New York, is the one who told me.

After continued discussions and the apparent increase in complaints we have changed our position and have decided to handle the output levels as a defect. We still don't consider it a defect, as it is performing as desiged, but that our design was flawed.

With this we are issuing a general reacall of the HDT-1. If you have an HDT-1 with either the bad clock time, or you are experiencing the problem of high output levels overloading your receiver, contact us so that we can make arrangements to repair the units.

We will cover the shipping and all parts & labor associated with these defects. As an added binefit we will also make the backlight adjustement for you upon request.

If you have any further questions, please let me know. I am happy that we could come to this conclusion and am happy I could work hard for all of you to resolve this problem.

I can not promise you, but if we can also offer the software "Force Analog Mode" we will also consider including that option. If we can offer this, due to the time you would have the option to get this upgrade for a small fee. Once I have determined that this is an option I will post again.

Thanks again for all your help and assistance.

Thank you!

Remember, if you don't have an amplifier that does an a/d conversion, and is overloaded, the extra output is actually a plus. You'll use a lower volume control setting, which will mean lower noise and greater dynamic range. The difference may not be audible...after all modern amplifiers already have extremely low noise, but still...

Master Theseus,

Thank you and your company for changing your minds on this. If you wouldn't have, I would have been quite disapointed. I think that a lot of us are responsible for your successful sales of the HDT-1. Our repeated posts and reviews on the retailers sites have spread the word about the quality of this tuner and the reputation of your company.

I will be sending mine back in the recall, and will miss it dearly while its gone. By doing this you have made a lot of friends in the audiophile market. We have been spreading the word about your machine, and now will be telling how conscientious the company is in dealing with these minor design flaws. Pass on to your engineering department the gratitude of you getting the product out as soon as they did. We understand and apprecitae it.

Tuner buyers are a specialized market. You have the ability to sell not only to the audiophile market, but to people looking for an add on to their system. I beleive you have reached out and made an inpact on the potential market of those looking to upgrade their system without having to buy an entire new system.

I for one will be buying a second Sangean tuner becuase of how much I was impressed with your first offering. It makes more sense to buy this and attach it to some amplified speakers, now I have my semi-portable machine. It is the best machine on the planet !

Keep up the good work, never forget your loyal followers in such a specialized market. We are selling your radio for you. Word of mouth, or should I say, forum blurbs are spreading the word not only to the tech heads, but to the average person who wants to add digital to their existing system.

This'd be a minus for me.

I've got an old 70's JVC integrated amp which has two slider pots for the volume control, so it's REALLY touchy when it comes to volume. 1/2" is the difference between silence and blowing one's ears out. For line level stuff, I barely ever get it up to 2, much less 1 1/2. I often play it low enough that one channel is significantly lower than the other. I usually turn my iPod down and my stereo up to get rid of this.

If I had another 10db, my stereo would be practically un-listenable at sane levels.

Man... I can't wait to ditch that old clunker of an amp and build a passive pre with a resistor network for the volume control.

(then again, there's nothing like having a 50+lb brushed metal monstrosity with a transformer the size of a softball)

Thesus...
Many, many, many thanks for all your support. You completely changed my view of the company... for the better.

Also... are there any retail stores that are going to be selling the HDT-1X? If so, I'd really like camp out in front of the store the night before it's release :) :) :)

The HDT-1X will be release in very limited qty. for now. We are running out of HD Modules. . . So we will only be getting 600 units to last us. With this low qty. we expect to sell out quick.

With that in mind I will be setting up a website to allow you and select others to pre-order them for immediate shipping from our warehouse (meaning that you will get them as fast as our dealers).

It will sell for $249.99 + $15 Flat shipping & Handling Fee, + 8.25% Applicable Taxes for CA residents.

Once I have it up and running I will let you know.

As a broadcaster, I personally really like the hot output levels.

It matches the +4dbm levels we need for monitoring inputs on our equipment much more closely.

All the HD installs I've done are locked to GPS. If you get the details of that worked out, it might make the most accurate time ever displayed on a radio.

We’ve bought a ton of HDT-1’s for monitoring at our stations (even some that are only analog), and really love them.

Dave O.

As a broadcaster, I personally really like the hot output levels.

It matches the +4dbm levels we need for monitoring inputs on our equipment much more closely.

All the HD installs I've done are locked to GPS. If you get the details of that worked out, it might make the most accurate time ever displayed on a radio.

We’ve bought a ton of HDT-1’s for monitoring at our stations (even some that are only analog), and really love them.

Dave O.
Except for our Atomic Clock Radio's you mean. Nothing is more accurate than atomic.

Master Theseus

all great news: I hope you can save a 1X for me

Has there been any resolution to the display? even at 0 contrast level it is too bright in a darkened room (usually left on 24/7)

edit: or I would be happy with discreet on/off IR codes


Thanks again

After continued discussions and the apparent increase in complaints we have changed our position and have decided to handle the output levels as a defect. We still don't consider it a defect, as it is performing as desiged, but that our design was flawed.

With this we are issuing a general reacall of the HDT-1. If you have an HDT-1 with either the bad clock time, or you are experiencing the problem of high output levels overloading your receiver, contact us so that we can make arrangements to repair the units.

We will cover the shipping and all parts & labor associated with these defects. As an added binefit we will also make the backlight adjustement for you upon request.

If you have any further questions, please let me know. I am happy that we could come to this conclusion and am happy I could work hard for all of you to resolve this problem.

I can not promise you, but if we can also offer the software "Force Analog Mode" we will also consider including that option. If we can offer this, due to the time you would have the option to get this upgrade for a small fee. Once I have determined that this is an option I will post again.

Thanks again for all your help and assistance.

What a great move on Sangean's part! I believe you will have won many friends doing this now. I am very impressed and happy to hear this news and it will only help Sangean's reputation as a great company to deal with. Bravo! Wise decision and I am sure it will increase sales and make up for the initial startup costs in the long run with very happy satisfied customers. I cannot wait for the release of your HDT-1x and will preorder one as soon as you give the word!

Thanks!

What a great move on Sangean's part! I believe you will have won many friends doing this now. I am very impressed and happy to hear this news and it will only help Sangean's reputation as a great company to deal with. Bravo! Wise decision and I am sure it will increase sales and make up for the initial startup costs in the long run with very happy satisfied customers. I cannot wait for the release of your HDT-1x and will preorder one as soon as you give the word!

Thanks!
I pre-ordered one HDT-1X. Now I hope I did not jump too quickly because I see that they are forecasting newer chipset equipped radios due out later this year or early 2008 with more digital radio capabilities for subscription based encrypted HD content (means pay radio). They say the early HD radios (meaning our current HDT-1, 1X, etc.) will not be able to play with the new functions to be added later... The early HD radios will still receive unencrypted HD radio as they do today, just won't be able to subscribe to the special encrypted broadcasts if they move to doing that.

I do not like the idea that they will start charging us with pay per listen broadcasts... but if it does happen and you want to listen to a special concert or program with the new system, then you will have to buy another new HD radio equipped with the new chip set(s). Dang. I won't be much of a fan of the pay for listen HD radio. I already pay for XM Satelite radio and the lure of Free OTA radio will be gone and they will plummet HD radio concept IMHO. Keep it all FREE is my feelings on this.

See this digital FM/AM radio site for more news bits on HD radio and new radio chip sets coming soon:

http://digital-am-fm.com/

Very interesting. Pay radio. I was considering ordering an HDT-1X. I bought my HDT-1 a couple of weeks ago and it might just wind up on eBay before I even get my $40 rebate! With that news, plus the lousy audio on the station I bought it to listen to (KAAM) which sounds like a phone line in stereo with little or no highs, and no dynamic range whatsoever. (I have a CD I recorded of that same station in 2004 in C-Quam that sounds far superior, but I digress...) I may give up on this format before I repeat history and wind up with a houseful of radios (I have 5 C-Quam radios) and the whole thing goes belly-up! That, plus the FM stations don't seem to have their act together audio-quality wise either. Huge differences in sound quality from analog to digital on several, some better, some worse in HD. And the secondary channels will drop out sometimes when a plane flies over and have silence, and eventually revert to the primary program since there's no analog to fall back to, which in my case with 107.5 is completely different programming. What a deal!

Very interesting. Pay radio. I was considering ordering an HDT-1X. I bought my HDT-1 a couple of weeks ago and it might just wind up on eBay before I even get my $40 rebate! With that news, plus the lousy audio on the station I bought it to listen to (KAAM) which sounds like a phone line in stereo with little or no highs, and no dynamic range whatsoever. (I have a CD I recorded of that same station in 2004 in C-Quam that sounds far superior, but I digress...) I may give up on this format before I repeat history and wind up with a houseful of radios (I have 5 C-Quam radios) and the whole thing goes belly-up! That, plus the FM stations don't seem to have their act together audio-quality wise either. Huge differences in sound quality from analog to digital on several, some better, some worse in HD. And the secondary channels will drop out sometimes whan a plane flies over and have silence, and eventually revert to the primary program since there's no analog to fall back to, which in my case with 107.5 is completely different programming. What a deal!
I think it is really great that they are able to do HD radio at all, but if they turn it into a greedy money making proposition, then it spoils it all the way to hell. I too agree that the majority of radio stations don't know nor care squat about the sound quality. All the HD radio stations in the NYC area don't seem to pay any attention to setting up their HD feeds properly and ensuring that their audio sound is as good as it can be. Alot of them, their analog audio feed still sounds better (more full and balanced). I think that most of the station engineers that they hire for the position are not hi-fi oriented and do not pay much attention to getting it set up with flat unprocessed sound. They tend to either boost the highs too bright thinking it sounds sharper and thus good or they turn the audio level way up thinking it makes their station sound more powerful thus people will like it better. This thinking is driven by the non-technical station management who are not concerned with the audio quality being hi-fi. They want their sound adjusted to what they 'think' is what will attract more listeners which is either bright loud harsh sound or highly compressed, processed loud modulation. Poor thinking on their part. I have written a few stations in the NYC area and none of them have responded by improving their HD feeds. Only WCBS 101.1 has responded and did lower their HD2 blastin audio level and raised their HD1 audio level. But they still have the highs a bit too boosted on their HD1 feed and the bass attenuated so that it still sounds thinner than their original analog audio feed. Oh well.

As for obsolete HD radios subject, I think the smart thing for a manufacturer to do is to build their radio so that it has an update-able module such that when they do implement the encryption based digital format, all one has to do is plug in a new module which should be cheaper than re-buying an entirely new HD radio unit. Firmware update-able is good too, but it won't accomodate a change in chip-set/hardware update. So a pluggable module design is best to avoid becoming obsolete.

I am not sure how much I am allowed to say about the "conditional access" but I do recall a press announcement, so I will say what I know.

Conditional Access is designed to limit the availability of a service for 2 different reasons.

Reason 1. For stations such as NPR, whom plan on providing a periodical reading service for vision impaired people need to limit distribution for copyright purposes. The conditional access allows the stations to require a subscription and therefore meet the legal requirements. They do not plan on charging for this service.

Reason 2. They will be premium services such as live concert broadcasts, real-time traffic information to car navigation systems, and other premium services that HD Radio allows. As a general rule the are not going to then charge for radio unless they were to provide sattelite like content commercial free. They will be charging mostly for services.

As to the module, the module is a serialized module so therefore each HD Radio will be identitifable. When you subscribe to one of the premium services you would need the advanced information that would provide you with the serial number for your radio. When you successfully subscribe the encryption code will be broadcast to your HD Radio, and your HD Radio only.

I wish it would be as simple as software upgrade, but it isn't. But let's face it, unless you want these premium services you don't have to get a new radio. But we can also say that if you subscribe, perhaps they can give you free HD Radio's like cell phones do. . .That could be a bonus.

I am not sure how much I am allowed to say about the "conditional access" but I do recall a press announcement, so I will say what I know.

Conditional Access is designed to limit the availability of a service for 2 different reasons.

Reason 1. For stations such as NPR, whom plan on providing a periodical reading service for vision impaired people need to limit distribution for copyright purposes. The conditional access allows the stations to require a subscription and therefore meet the legal requirements. They do not plan on charging for this service.

Reason 2. They will be premium services such as live concert broadcasts, real-time traffic information to car navigation systems, and other premium services that HD Radio allows. As a general rule the are not going to then charge for radio unless they were to provide sattelite like content commercial free. They will be charging mostly for services.

As to the module, the module is a serialized module so therefore each HD Radio will be identitifable. When you subscribe to one of the premium services you would need the advanced information that would provide you with the serial number for your radio. When you successfully subscribe the encryption code will be broadcast to your HD Radio, and your HD Radio only.

I wish it would be as simple as software upgrade, but it isn't. But let's face it, unless you want these premium services you don't have to get a new radio. But we can also say that if you subscribe, perhaps they can give you free HD Radio's like cell phones do. . .That could be a bonus.

For whatever reason they implement it, I won't pay for it. The concept of registering your HD Radio's serial number is nothing new. It seems like they are just copying what XM Satelite radio does today. To subscribe to XM Radio, you must register your XM Radio's serial number with the XM Radio service, they enter you into their database and activate your XM Radio. So, if HD Radio entrepeneurs have in their agenda to hook the end users with Free radio first and then pull a bait and switch routine on us (to have to upgrade and pay for HD radio content) later... whoa! What is this? Should we sit idle and let it happen or protest and not buy into HD Radio? Will it FLOP then? I know I will not welcome pay for HD Radio since it won't offer anymore than Satelite XM Radio. BTW I hate to pay for Satelite Radio also since it is of mediocre compressed (Not CD Quality) sound quality like they hyped it up to be in the beginning! If it were indeed at a minimum, CD Quality then I would not mind paying the fees at all. But it is not. So it should be free (or cheaper than it is now).
I have Time Warner RoadRunner digital cable TV and music channels. Now, cable is a medium capable of delivering CD audio Quality broadcasts. But alas, even they don't know how to adjust their audio sound quality feed properly (or they don't adjust it properly on purpose so you can't record a decent copy of it). But a few channels on cable music stations sound really good compared to HD Radio and XM Satelite which sound at best like a medium quality MP3 file.

For whatever reason they implement it, I won't pay for it. The concept of registering your HD Radio's serial number is nothing new. It seems like they are just copying what XM Satelite radio does today. To subscribe to XM Radio, you must register your XM Radio's serial number with the XM Radio service, they enter you into their database and activate your XM Radio. So, if HD Radio entrepeneurs have in their agenda to hook the end users with Free radio first and then pull a bait and switch routine on us (to have to upgrade and pay for HD radio content) later... whoa! What is this? Should we sit idle and let it happen or protest and not buy into HD Radio? Will it FLOP then? I know I will not welcome pay for HD Radio since it won't offer anymore than Satelite XM Radio.

And the great thing is that even with the serialized radios you don't have to subscribe unless you want to. Not that different than buying the HBO package from cable. If you want HBO premium programing, you have to pay. In this case, if you want to hear the Rolling Stones Live in Chicago in near CD quality, then you pay $4.95 to hear it. If you don't want to pay the $4.95, then you don't get to hear it.

Maybe I am blinded by the binefits of HD Radio to see that a small attempt to provide a premium service to make a little more revenue, that may turn into better programing as a problem. - But I have been known to be blinded easilly. . . I bought an IPod.

But maybe we should argue this in a different forum. . . Some may think that this is a Sangean only thing. . . .

PAYING to listen to the Rolling Stones live?

*dies laughing*

(they were good... 40 years ago)

Thesus...
I know you and all the people working to get HD Radio are good people, and I think HD Radio is a GREAT idea, but I have to say.... conditional access for anything but free blind reading services and datacasting IS A DUMB IDEA.

Conditional access DTV was played around with for a while by a company called USDTV. Basically, they broadcasted 10 SD satellite/cable network channels over local OTA channels. This cost $20 a month and was available in three markets.

I went to their website to check out how they were doing- dead.
Check it out for your self- http://www.usdtv.com/

Scrambled analog was tried before USDTV and failed too. The math doesn't work out, even if it was $1 or $2 you might as well go with satellite and get many channels.

I don't expext to see pay HD radio anytime soon, all the HD2 stations are still comercial free where I live since they are still trying to get people to buy radios.

- Standardized fixed Line level output (or an adjustable one!). Output fixed to 600mV.
- Digital line output (optical and/or coax). Yes. SPDIF
- Fix the clock to keep accurate time. Fixed on both HDT-1 and HDT-1X.
- Manually continously adjustable display brightness from full off to full bright. The HDT-1X is slightly adjustable and OFF when the unit is in standby. HDT-1 will remain same until all part stock is depleted.
- One button access to station presets (instead of two buttons press). This was not changed, don't know why.
- would be nice to have a capacitor to hold voltage on clock time so that we don't have to reset the clock time if lose power or moving unit to another room. This was not changed. The HDT-1X you will not see the clock when the unit is in standby. HDT-1 is same as before.
- minor concern, but can you get rid of the purplish tinge marring the otherwise nice blue background on the display? That is an effect of the contrast level and from my understanding there is no immediate fix other than changing display.


Could you please elaborate on the SPDIF output? I saw that this will be optical. May I assume the HDT-1X will provide PCM which can be decoded by a receiver which has optical SPDIF input? I heard that some stations have started broadcasting 5.1/7.1 DTS. Will the HDT-1X support DTS, also?
Thanks.
DonP

Could you please elaborate on the SPDIF output? I saw that this will be optical. May I assume the HDT-1X will provide PCM which can be decoded by a receiver which has optical SPDIF input? I heard that some stations have started broadcasting 5.1/7.1 DTS. Will the HDT-1X support DTS, also?
Thanks.
DonP

The receiver will decide what to call it, but I know that when I connected it to my receiver it did indicate PCM.

As for supporting 5.1/7.1 DTS, that is more dependant on the receiver itself and less on the HDT-1X. I can say that there is no multi-channel decoder on our unit.

And the great thing is that even with the serialized radios you don't have to subscribe unless you want to. Not that different than buying the HBO package from cable. If you want HBO premium programing, you have to pay. In this case, if you want to hear the Rolling Stones Live in Chicago in near CD quality, then you pay $4.95 to hear it. If you don't want to pay the $4.95, then you don't get to hear it.

Maybe I am blinded by the binefits of HD Radio to see that a small attempt to provide a premium service to make a little more revenue, that may turn into better programing as a problem. - But I have been known to be blinded easilly. . . I bought an IPod.

But maybe we should argue this in a different forum. . . Some may think that this is a Sangean only thing. . . .
One major problem with this pay per listen, subscribe using your radio's serial number is that it only allows that one radio to receive the "paid for" broadcast. I cannot listen to it on all my HD radios (living room unit, bedroom unit, kitchen unit, car unit, unless I pay for them all multiple times? and will I have to subscribe and pay for each station's special broadcast on top of that? Hmmmm... I don't think I like this picture... it can add up to alot of paying $$$! I hope I did not unravel something here... to think about.

And yes, I agree, this topic ought to be taken into a separate thread if enough people want to discuss it. And yes this has nothing to do with Sangean HD radios/tuners only. It applies to all brands "early" HD radios. I feel sorry for the folks who might have splurged on the expensive Rotel HD tuner...! yikes! obsolete so soon?

The receiver will decide what to call it, but I know that when I connected it to my receiver it did indicate PCM.

As for supporting 5.1/7.1 DTS, that is more dependant on the receiver itself and less on the HDT-1X. I can say that there is no multi-channel decoder on our unit.
Well I hope that they will implement the 5.1/7.1 surround sound stuff in such a way that it will be transparent to the radio itself and just pass it out to the digital output (optical or coax) so that we can feed it into our external 5.1/7.1 decoders like the ones already built into our home theater receivers or preamps/amps. That would be a plus.

'Could you please elaborate on the SPDIF output? I saw that this will be optical. May I assume the HDT-1X will provide PCM which can be decoded by a receiver which has optical SPDIF input? I heard that some stations have started broadcasting 5.1/7.1 DTS. Will the HDT-1X support DTS, also?
Thanks.
DonP
I don't see why it would not be a standard optical SPDIF output. I have a Cambridge Soundworks 820HD radio with optical SPDIF output and am using it as a tuner right now (as I await my new Sangean HDT-1X) and it works great, Sounds great. and I think this is the best HD Table Clock Radio unit out on the market currently. I am happy with its sound quality. But most of the New York City HD stations that I listen to don't broadcast the best quality that they can and should. However, the NYC stations that do sound really good, are adjusted properly and have their "HD act" together, I don't like their content, so what a pity for me.

Rack mounts. . . . Rack mounts! Get your rack mounts!! We expect to have them available in about 60 days or so. $12.99.

'
I don't see why it would not be a standard optical SPDIF output. I have a Cambridge Soundworks 820HD radio with optical SPDIF output and am using it as a tuner right now (as I await my new Sangean HDT-1X) and it works great, Sounds great. and I think this is the best HD Table Clock Radio unit out on the market currently. I am happy with its sound quality. But most of the New York City HD stations that I listen to don't broadcast the best quality that they can and should. However, the NYC stations that do sound really good, are adjusted properly and have their "HD act" together, I don't like their content, so what a pity for me.

My Polk XRT-12 digital XM tuner has high quality Burr Brown DAC's and offers both digital SPDIF optical and digital coax outputs as well as the analog stereo RCA phono outputs. I bought this digital tuner for around $279.99 plus a $50 rebate back in Dec. 2005 (so total price was = $229.99). The Polk tuner is selling for $249.99 today. It also offers TV Video out connections and audio level control. I think the Sangean HDT-1x should offer this stuff too for its price of $249.99. The Burr Brown DACS would be a nice touch.

The Polk tuner, like all XM and Sirius receivers, are probably heavily subsidized by the satellite radio companies themselves, since each radio sold is a guaranteed paying susscriber (as with cell phones and satellite-TV receivers). Notice how there are no "dual-service" satellite-radio receivers on the market, which would otherwise be an obvious choice if it weren't for the subsidizing. HD Radio equipment is not being subsidized at all (I would guess, since the receivers are not cheap).

On Saturday the 26th. of May I took the four hour trek to the Big Apple, The highlight of this trip is usually a visit to JR Music World in lower Manhattan. JR is an enormous cluster of buildings that sells every electronic gadget known to man. From Cell phones to computers. At any given time there are a thousand or so customers in their collection of buildings located across the street from city hall at Park Place.

When I got there I went to the portable radio/component stereo building. Here I immediately found the HDR-1 on a shelf with all of the other HD table top radios. The HDR-1 was not connected. The salesman told me that I was looking at the best HD radio, he pointed to the radiosophy unit. It was plugged in, attached to an antenna and displaying data.

I asked why the Sangean was not hooked up, The cluster of salesman told me that it was too hard to connect, and showed me cable coaxial wire that was connected to the Radiosophy radio. It seemed that it was too much trouble to disconnect the telescoping antenna on the Sangean and then attach the coax with an adapter. Poor excuse on the part of the store and Sangean.

I had come to this same counter in December and pre-ordered my HDT-1 which they knew nothing about, but mailed it to me a week later when the units became available from Sangean.

I asked where they had the HDT-1, and was informed that it was upstairs with the components. When I arrived to the custom stereo rooms on the next floor I found the HDT-1 on a shelf not connected and not on. The salesman told me that he had sold about 100 units but never had the unit on. He informed me that they didn't have the antenna setup. I told him that all they had to do was connect the dipole in the box. He shrugged his shoulders politely and added, it's selling.

In the Mecca of Music entertainment, and one of the biggest stores in New York City, our Sangean should be treated with more respect. I have been reading the posts about Podunk, and the smaller stores in these towns. I didn't think that I would have found that condition here. Sangean representatives and all other the other manufacturers should be on the road making sure that their products are properly connected and displayed in a way that customers can hear them. There really should be cardboard cutouts, Kiosks, etc. promoting HD radio.

I think that if the uninformed where to walk into these retailers and see a bunch of displays showing the digital information, this alone would prompt a person to ask what they were seeing. The HD community needs to at least be pumping the advertising at these locations. Here you have customers ready to buy, but no one equipped to give the real answers.

I've never seen any demo radios properly connected to an antenna in the larger stores.
AM is always useless on the internal stick. FM is whatever can be picked up on the whip or 32 inch wire hanging out the back.

My Polk XRT-12 digital XM tuner has high quality Burr Brown DAC's and offers both digital SPDIF optical and digital coax outputs as well as the analog stereo RCA phono outputs. I bought this digital tuner for around $279.99 plus a $50 rebate back in Dec. 2005 (so total price was = $229.99). The Polk tuner is selling for $249.99 today. It also offers TV Video out connections and audio level control. I think the Sangean HDT-1x should offer this stuff too for its price of $249.99. The Burr Brown DACS would be a nice touch.

That's one reason I opted to wait for the HDT-1X: My Denon 4306 has the "high quality Burr Brown DACs" to convert the digital signal from the 1X to analog output from the receiver.

I had the Polk xRT-12, and IMO, I preferred the analog output over the digital. To each his own.

So how do I order a HDT-1X?

Would any one know how to hook up a composite video output to send the display to TV?

Would any one know how to hook up a composite video output to send the display to TV?

There is not a "video out" connection on either the HDT-1 or 1x, according to the manual. Sorry.

So how do I order a HDT-1X?


http://www.sangean.com/hdradio/?mid=hills_668

Wondering how much time loss people are seeing. After a few weeks I can say mine loses about 1 min a week. It is ver. 1.3f.

Also has anyone had their tuner "lock up" with a loud motorboating type sound? Mine's done that a few times usually when I am rotating the loop antenna around trying to get a decent signal. All I can do at that point is power OFF and back ON to reset it.

"MRinDENVER"

"Video out" ??? are you possibly confusing the Sangean HDT-1 HD AUDIO only tuner with the Samsung DTB-H260F digital TELEVISION tuner ???

http://www.samsung.com/products/digitalsettopbox/hdtvtuners/index.asp

Wondering how much time loss people are seeing. After a few weeks I can say mine loses about 1 min a week. It is ver. 1.3f.

Also has anyone had their tuner "lock up" with a loud motorboating type sound? Mine's done that a few times usually when I am rotating the loop antenna around trying to get a decent signal. All I can do at that point is power OFF and back ON to reset it.

I get the lockup often if I tune an AM HD station before tuning an FM HD station. I NEVER get the lockup if I tune FM HD first. It happens on my Sangean and on my Accurian (and the Accurian in the store). I believe it is a chipset design problem.

Clock seems to lose a minute every day and a half.

Richard Wagoner

Members, I want to say that although we will be fixing the problems with the defective HDT-1's we do not currently have the parts or appropriate tools to do so at this time.

I will be making and announcement once I get a firm date on the availablility of these parts and am sure that we can adequately handle the issues. Please don't continue to call us asking for this change. It is not available yet and you will be the first outside this company to know when the service will be available.

Members, I want to say that although we will be fixing the problems with the defective HDT-1's we do not currently have the parts or appropriate tools to do so at this time.

I will be making and announcement once I get a firm date on the availablility of these parts and am sure that we can adequately handle the issues. Please don't continue to call us asking for this change. It is not available yet and you will be the first outside this company to know when the service will be available.

My question is, if and when I send my HDT-1 in for the fixes willl that include a software update? I'd hate to make the changes and see the C-Quam capability go away. It's not that C-Quam is important to me but the fact that I've ordered the 1X means that fixing this unit is less important to me because the 1X will become my dafault unit while the 1 will become a collectable.

"MRinDENVER"

"Video out" ??? are you possibly confusing the Sangean HDT-1 HD AUDIO only tuner with the Samsung DTB-H260F digital TELEVISION tuner ???

http://www.samsung.com/products/digitalsettopbox/hdtvtuners/index.asp

Nope. Check a couple of posts above mine. rpm7rpm wanted to know if it was possible to send the display on the Seangen tuner to a TV. That was the impetus for my post.

My question is, if and when I send my HDT-1 in for the fixes willl that include a software update? I'd hate to make the changes and see the C-Quam capability go away. It's not that C-Quam is important to me but the fact that I've ordered the 1X means that fixing this unit is less important to me because the 1X will become my dafault unit while the 1 will become a collectable.

Good question. I will check to verify, but my assumption is that we would be replacing it with a new module that will have the latest software updates on it.

Otherwise we would only update the software as requested and in no other case.

Randy van and others: were you able to solve this? I am having the same problem. The HDT-1 worked beautifully for several weeks. Now, several signals cycle through an SSI of 15-14-3-0 about every three seconds, and I can't receive most of the HD signals in my area. I have tried switching lead cables, adding an antenna amp and other things to no avail. The signal is there when I hook up my other tuner. Is there an easy fix, or has my unit gone bad?

I think this same issue might be happening with my 3 month old HDT-1. I've slowly been less and less able to lock in on FM HD signals, despite having excellent analog signals (15-16 on the SSI). It's so bad now that I can't lock in on a single FM HD signal from a close Philadelphia suburb. Previously I could get at least 10.

Note this is an FM only phenomenon, I can get every AM HD station broadcasting in my area. My firmware is Ver. 1.2F.

I'd like to get some feedback from others regarding whether you're getting the same HD sensitivity you were when your HDT-1 was new. Got my fingers crossed this is something that can be fixed with a firmware upgrade. :confused:

I think this same issue might be happening with my 3 month old HDT-1. I've slowly been less and less able to lock in on FM HD signals, despite having excellent analog signals (15-16 on the SSI). It's so bad now that I can't lock in on a single FM HD signal from a close Philadelphia suburb. Previously I could get at least 10.

Note this is an FM only phenomenon, I can get every AM HD station broadcasting in my area. My firmware is Ver. 1.2F.

I'd like to get some feedback from others regarding whether you're getting the same HD sensitivity you were when your HDT-1 was new. Got my fingers crossed this is something that can be fixed with a firmware upgrade.

I've noticed something similar in the Philadelphia suburbs. However, I attribute it to the leaves on the trees. I have similar problems when receiving OTA HDTV signals. I moved my dipole to a window and the situation has improved a little. I don't lose every signal, but WRTI is weak in Wallingford, PA, about 13 miles from the transmitters where it was rock solid when the tuner was new in January. I'm wondering whether anyone has noticed the same problem in the West where there aren't too many trees with leaves.

I've noticed something similar in the Philadelphia suburbs. However, I attribute it to the leaves on the trees. I have similar problems when receiving OTA HDTV signals. I moved my dipole to a window and the situation has improved a little. I don't lose every signal, but WRTI is weak in Wallingford, PA, about 13 miles from the transmitters where it was rock solid when the tuner was new in January.

Hi TheOx! WRTI 90.1 is a solid 13-15 SSI here in Media, but no indication of HD attempting to lock at all. Your leaf theory fits nicely based on the time of year we started having problems, but is there any scientific explanation as to why it might affect the HD carrier but not the analog signal strength?

Update: I moved my antenna (CCrane FM Reflect) to get 90.1 and now a grand total of TWO FM HD signals attempt to lock. Neither of them actually do, naturally. Perhaps some people here who have had HD radio for over a year can comment on summer reception difficulty, as well?

Of the three FM stations I want to listen to the second "HD-2" program none will stay locked in reliably and audio will drop out until it either regains or times out and switches to the analog signal which is completely different programming. On the AM side, I can have a 16 SSI and "5" on the HD meter, and will drift down to below 9 for some unknown reason and switch to analog then SSI will go drift back up again and back to HD. One station it does this on constantly is only 10 miles or so from the house on 570 kHz and I am right in the middle of the coverage footprint but only get a 10 or 11 on the SSI. The other station I try to listen to at 770 will be SSI 16 and still cut out occasionally. To me the whole "HD" format seems too sensitive to any distortion in the signal AM or FM. Makes me wonder how this can ever work in a mobile environment.

Of the three FM stations I want to listen to the second "HD-2" program none will stay locked in reliably and audio will drop out until it either regains or times out and switches to the analog signal which is completely different programming. On the AM side, I can have a 16 SSI and "5" on the HD meter, and will drift down to below 9 for some unknown reason and switch to analog then SSI will go drift back up again and back to HD. One station it does this on constantly is only 10 miles or so from the house on 570 kHz and I am right in the middle of the coverage footprint but only get a 10 or 11 on the SSI. The other station I try to listen to at 770 will be SSI 16 and still cut out occasionally. To me the whole "HD" format seems too sensitive to any distortion in the signal AM or FM. Makes me wonder how this can ever work in a mobile environment.

My first inclination was leaves, because they do effect things like satellite TV and such. On second thought at FM's frequencies I doubt leaves are having much if any effect on the signal. I'd venture that it's the heavy air which comes with Summer that might be causing the signal to drop in level. The problem we have hear is that these meters aren't calibrated and so it might not take that much signal to move the meter to near pin, using alalog terms. What that means is that the signal you are receiving in cooler weather might not be as robust as you think it is. Remember digital is a all or nothing mode. I don't think any conclusions can be reached until the fall when the conditions return to those which afforded good reception ealier in the year.

To me the whole "HD" format seems too sensitive to any distortion in the signal AM or FM. Makes me wonder how this can ever work in a mobile environment.

It's actually quite good in the car, but with the lower signal strength of the HD transmitters, the range isn't as impressive. In the greater Philadelphia area, I can get around Philly and surrounding suburbs with little HD dropout - if any. As I start to venture away from Philly, I'll naturally get more. I estimate the practical range of the HD signal to be about 1/3 of the analog -- give or take, depending on the terrain and competing signals and the car's antenna (mine sucks).

I have been having problems all spring with foreign stations knocking out the Philly stations. I am 60 miles east in Lancaster. I remember reading a post a month or so ago about guys hearing midwest stations in New Jersey. At about the same time I noticed my car radio really having problems with the Philly stations.

I don't have the problems in the house with the Yagi, but the multipath in the car and the weak areas of town completely drop WOGL. I have been wanting to experiment and see if I catch their call letters on the HD display but haven't had time yet.

I am intrigued about this latest development. Is Phillidalphia the only place this is happening? Is there any other area that is having similar problems?

I have been having problems all spring with foreign stations knocking out the Philly stations. I am 60 miles east in Lancaster. I remember reading a post a month or so ago about guys hearing midwest stations in New Jersey. At about the same time I noticed my car radio really having problems with the Philly stations.

I don't have the problems in the house with the Yagi, but the multipath in the car and the weak areas of town completely drop WOGL. I have been wanting to experiment and see if I catch their call letters on the HD display but haven't had time yet.

I can't get any of the HD broadcasts from Philly when I'm in Lancaster. But that just might be my car's lousy antenna. What kind of car do you have and what kind of antenna? Oh, I guess what kind of HD Radio you've got in the car would be good to know too

I've noticed something similar in the Philadelphia suburbs. However, I attribute it to the leaves on the trees.
I had the same problem here last year. Once fall comes around, the stations were suddenly solid again. I just added a small amp and that fixed the problem, except for one really weak station.

Master Theseus - In case you didn't know, "skip" happens a lot in the VHF (and UHF) range during the summer months.
I'd recommend you take a look at this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TV-FM_DX

Master Theseus - In case you didn't know, "skip" happens a lot in the VHF (and UHF) range during the summer months.
I'd recommend you take a look at this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TV-FM_DX



Enhancement is what you are thinking of. Ducting is a Summertime form of enhancement, which effects the FM broadcast band. If a signal were to "skip" off the ionosphere or some other reflective surface the phase of the sidebands might change, thus making the signal unreadable by the radio. It all depends how much error correction is needed at the receive end. We'll learn a lot soon when 24 hour AM HD goes into operation.

I am intrigued about this latest development. Is Phillidalphia the only place this is happening? Is there any other area that is having similar problems?

Update! With a slight wiggle of antenna, change of weather and time of day, I'm getting at least half a dozen FM stations with perfect 5 bar reception.

This here reception stuff sure is wacky. :p

Tydalforce,

Let me correct myself. I don't have HD in the car. I only have it at home. My point was that the FM band is really acting bad this spring. My analog FM is really affected by the ducting (signals squeezed between layers of the atmosphere, and traveling long distances)
It seems worse, or at least it is lasting a long time.

I know that I have seen other comments on the East coast. There was someone reporting Iowa stations coming in loud and clear and completely knocking the Philadelphia stations out.

Noticed this morning the local AM station WBAP 820 has their C-Quam stereo back on. I can verify that my HDT-1 ver 1.3f definitely decodes C-Quam. Verified on another radio I own that has a "Stereo" indicator. WBAP had the C-Quam off for the past month. I had figured they were going HD sometime soon.

I bought a Terk Advantage 1000 loop antenna in hopes it would work better than the stock loop. I still get occasional HD dropouts in the daytime on all the AM stations I receive. There is very little if any difference with or without the Terk either air-coupled or directly connected to the ANT input during the day, but the Terk does improve reception at night and increases sig strength several counts on the SSI meter, thus reducing noise. Maybe it will help when the AM stations start transmitting HD at night.

Also, I got my HD Radio $40 rebate already! Only took 4 weeks. I think that sets a record turnaround time for any rebate I've ever sent in. I forgot to include the UPC label off the box too but they didn't notice!

Noticed this morning the local AM station WBAP 820 has their C-Quam stereo back on. I can verify that my HDT-1 ver 1.3f definitely decodes C-Quam. Verified on another radio I own that has a "Stereo" indicator. WBAP had the C-Quam off for the past month. I had figured they were going HD sometime soon.

I bought a Terk Advantage 1000 loop antenna in hopes it would work better than the stock loop. I still get occasional HD dropouts in the daytime on all the AM stations I receive. There is very little if any difference with or without the Terk either air-coupled or directly connected to the ANT input during the day, but the Terk does improve reception at night and increases sig strength several counts on the SSI meter, thus reducing noise. Maybe it will help when the AM stations start transmitting HD at night.

Also, I got my HD Radio $40 rebate already! Only took 4 weeks. I think that sets a record turnaround time for any rebate I've ever sent in. I forgot to include the UPC label off the box too but they didn't notice!


My guess would be that they were running on a transmitter other than the one with the C-Quam encoder and have just put that one back on air.

Since I've been listening to WBAP820 in C-Quam today I've heard the HDT-1 do a really LOUD sudden high to low in frequency tone burst, lasts maybe a half-second, very disturbing since it is quite a bit louder than the normal program audio. Has happened about 6 times today so far. I don't remember hearing it do this before. Is this possibly the PLL synchro AM detector unlocking and locking back in? Seems like a read about that before...

Since I've been listening to WBAP820 in C-Quam today I've heard the HDT-1 do a really LOUD sudden high to low in frequency tone burst, lasts maybe a half-second, very disturbing since it is quite a bit louder than the normal program audio. Has happened about 6 times today so far. I don't remember hearing it do this before. Is this possibly the PLL synchro AM detector unlocking and locking back in? Seems like a read about that before...

It could also be the C-Quam. The radio isn't designed to take C-Quam. It could be the system trying to fix itself.

It could also be the C-Quam. The radio isn't designed to take C-Quam. It could be the system trying to fix itself.

Sure seems odd to me if it wasn't designed to do C-Quam, that it would decode it in full stereo. What got my attention today was the stereo separation I was hearing on WBAP and I went to another radio to confirm it (my trusty old Denon 680NAB). I remember reading the HDT-1 and specifically my 1.3f version wasn't supposed to do C-Quam. Pretty much a moot point anyway they will likely be going HD sooner or later.

Addendum 3 days later... yes I think you are right Master Theseus.. it seems to do that only on the one C-Quam station on the air. I can mis-adjust the antenna for a weak signal to make it happen. Too bad no thought was given to the possibility of how this tuner would respond to a C-Quam signal since they do still exist! It should have been designed either to receive it properly, or not attempt to decode it at all.

Sure seems odd to me if it wasn't designed to do C-Quam, that it would decode it in full stereo. What got my attention today was the stereo separation I was hearing on WBAP and I went to another radio to confirm it (my trusty old Denon 680NAB). I remember reading the HDT-1 and specifically my 1.3f version wasn't supposed to do C-Quam. Pretty much a moot point anyway they will likely be going HD sooner or later.

Addendum 3 days later... yes I think you are right Master Theseus.. it seems to do that only on the one C-Quam station on the air. I can mis-adjust the antenna for a weak signal to make it happen. Too bad no thought was given to the possibility of how this tuner would respond to a C-Quam signal since they do still exist! It should have been designed either to receive it properly, or not attempt to decode it at all.

Again, the C-Quam is not on our part. It is the HD Radio technology for AM HD. The only way to turn C-Quam off is to turn off AM HD. Since the technology and exciters are so similar they are mistaken b the tuners software as an HD signal. In order to make the tuner C-Quam compatable we would have had to licence from Motorola, something we don't want to do since we would have to pay them for every HDT-1 and HDT-1X regardless if the consumers used it or not.

Got KGB-FM in San Diego from my home in Rancho Palos Verdes with HD nice and solid today on my HDT-1.

Got KGB-FM in San Diego from my home in Rancho Palos Verdes with HD nice and solid today on my HDT-1.

What's the distance, and what kind if antenna are you using?

What's the distance, and what kind if antenna are you using?

About 120 miles driving distance or so. I am within a few miles of the ocean, so the signal gets a fairly straight shot. My antenna is a house TV/FM antenna aimed toward Mount Wilson in Los Angeles. If I aimed it to San Diego, it would probably get more from there.

I was getting KGB in HD in my car this morning, in Tustin, central Orange County. About 80 miles. Intermittent locks on 97.3 KSON as well, which is amazing as we have a 97.1 in LA.

You guys up in the L.A. area might have fun listening for XHTY 99.7 in Tijuana. They are transmitting in HD.

Brian

You guys up in the L.A. area might have fun listening for XHTY 99.7 in Tijuana. They are transmitting in HD.

Brian

Today, at least, I don't get it. KOLA (99.9 FM) is SO strong here that it tends to interfere.

Has anyone updated the firmware on their HDT-1? Do you like it the new way or old way?

Richard

I like HDT-1 1.4F better because it requires just a single button push to recall a memory. No need to press PRESET first. Also the FM deemphasis curve is flatter, although it droops above 10 kHz. However, Sangean really blew the AM deemphasis. AM now sounds shrill, a real step backwards from previous versions. Also some operations are much slower, some frustratingly so.

More details at the end of this writeup:

http://ham-radio.com/k6sti/hdt-1.htm

Brian

I did. Brian's review pretty much covers it. http://www.ham-radio.com/k6sti/hdt-1.htm (scroll down to the list at the bottom)

I think that the analog AM sounds a lot better than it did, despite the shrillness. I am definitely not pleased with the loss of high frequencies on the analog FM.

For my purposes, the new firmware is a marginal improvement, mostly thanks to the clock and the corrected output level, but I wouldn't recommend it to everyone, especially if it's going to be your main tuner.

Maybe I'll wait until it is revised again. I hate the analog AM sound now, but I like the FM ... and as you know, in LA there are so few listenable AM stations anyway.

Again, the C-Quam is not on our part. It is the HD Radio technology for AM HD. The only way to turn C-Quam off is to turn off AM HD. Since the technology and exciters are so similar they are mistaken b the tuners software as an HD signal. In order to make the tuner C-Quam compatable we would have had to licence from Motorola, something we don't want to do since we would have to pay them for every HDT-1 and HDT-1X regardless if the consumers used it or not.

From another board I frequent:

1: One of the key reason's for Motorola's success in wining the
marketplace battle for AM stereo was that they waived all royalty
fees, even for the use of the C-QUAM trademark.

2: Most of the C-QUAM patents, as well as the trademark have expired.
The patents that haven't expired yet are ones developed in the 1990s
with the last two or three versions of its C-QUAM chips, most notably
phase compensation, which is intended to reduce platform shift, as
well as certain circuits and enhancements for digitally-tuned C-QUAM
radios, also in late-series chips.

C-QUAM is for all intents and purposes in the public domain now. In
fact, all analogue AM stereo systems, exept for one from Sanyo,
developed in the mid-'80s after the start of the AMS market wars,
which is based on the RCA/Belar system, are in the public
domain....which is also part of the problem with IBOC, in that the
system is proprietary in a way that prevents itself from being
supportable once the patents and trademarks associated with it expire,
or revert to the public domain.

Amy. <:3 )~~8~

Master:

Is it OK to wait for another software revision before I send in my HDT-1? I don't want to go past the warranty period (I think December), but I don't want to get the current version due to the sound issues people have mentioned. I do eventually want the sound level/clock issue fixed.

Richard

From my understanding the only issue with sound is the lack of NRSC Deimphasis on analog AM. Is there something else I am missing?

Check Brian's reviews http://www.ham-radio.com/k6sti/hdt-1.htm (summary at the bottom of the page) and http://www.ham-radio.com/k6sti/hdt-1x.htm (which shows the actual deemphasis errors for both AM and FM). His review matches mine -- the update changed the analog FM deemphasis, fixing the hump in the midrange but losing top end in the process. Whether this is an improvement is open to debate, but it certainly ain't right yet.

I personally prefer the sound of the AM now over what it was, but it ain't right yet either -- it's shrill.

(Note to casual lurkers - both of these criticisms are nitpicky. It's a VERY good radio right out of the box. We just want it to be the best it can be.)

Also, please pass post 616 along to the powers that be if possible -- it's from a well-respected poster on a C-QUAM board. She should know what she's talking about. There would appear to be no financial reason to not officially support C-QUAM.

I finally compiled a brief summary of the differences between the latest versions of the HDT-1 and HDT-1X. This information is more complete than that provided by Sangean. The summary is at the end of the HDT-1X review here:

http://ham-radio.com/k6sti/hdt-1x.htm

Brian

Brian:

Overall, is the upgrade in firmware a good thing in the HDT-1 or a bad thing? AM is not a real problem (analog AM on the HDT-1 is OK for me, until I listen to my Carver, but in LA the stations I listen to are HD with the exception of KFI). But I heard the FM highs on analog are rolled off quite a bit.

Richard

Richard, I don't know what version you have and I don't know what 1.3F did. But beyond that, the changes from 1.2F to 1.4F are complicated and the value of the upgrade depends on what features and aspects of performance are important to you. For example, I spent May through July DXing sporadic-E propagation with my HDT-1. I put all my clear or relatively clear channels in memory. Then when the band opened I rapidly recalled each of them to see what was coming through. I was constantly hopping frequencies. I had version 1.2F then and every memory recall required me to first press PRESET and then the memory digit. It was a pain! Brief openings can be frantic and sometimes my finger would stutter and activate PRESET twice and the digit wouldn't do anything. Other times it would miss PRESET altogether. Just getting the two-button cadence wrong interrupted my channel scanning. When I finally got 1.4F after the sporadic-E season was over, the new single-button memory recall feature (just press the digit) was such a wonderful improvement that, for me, that one feature alone would have made the upgrade worthwhile. But I don't expect it would matter that much to others.

The 1.4F deemphasis does not sound rolled off to me. 1.2F had a 2-dB peak at 4 kHz and it was audible, though not strikingly so, when comparing the HDT-1 with a tuner with accurate deemphasis. But I can't hear any difference between 1.4F and that tuner. 1.4F is down 1 dB at about 9.5 kHz and down 3.3 dB at 15 kHz. My hearing is strong to about 10 kHz and weaker to 12-13 kHz. If my hearing were better above 10 kHz perhaps I'd notice a difference. So again it all depends on what's important to you.

I have tried to catalog all the difference between 1.2F and 1.4F in my HDT-1 writeup. There are references to the two versions scattered throughout the text and there is a summary of the differences at the end. You'll just have to read it and decide what things matter to you.

Brian

Mine is 1.2F. I am more concerned with the clock (and less so the output level). My concern over the 1.4F upgrade is analog sound more than anything. I understand what you are saying with the graphs, etc., but without people actually hearing it, it's hard to judge.

Do you think they will fix the deemphasis curve, or is this what it will be?

I'm 44; my hearing is probably not THAT great, but I think I'm OK to past 15K.

Richard

OK, Richard. One correction: the 1.2F 2-dB peak is at 8 kHz, not 4 kHz. It is more than 1 dB too high from 3.1 kHz to 10.5 kHz. I think that wide range is what makes the response bump audible.

You will have to ask Sangean whether they will be making any more corrections to the deemphasis curve.

All I can tell you is that I prefer the FM sound of 1.4F and the AM sound of 1.2F. But I don't think the FM difference is all that important. It is nothing like the difference in sound quality between analog and HD for a station that transmits both well (KCRW, KKJZ, and KUSC).

Brian

Thanks Brian. You are always helpful.

Richard

I have not gotten a response on if any future changes are going to be made. I am in constant state of reminding them to fix it, but I believe they are waiting to see if there are that many complaints about the lack of it before the proceed.

So far I have had practically no complaints about the lack of NRSC deimphasis on AM in the HDT-1X. Is that because no one listens to AM Analog? Because there aren't enough in the market yeat? Or simply that no one really notices. I don't know, but I am keeping an eye on it and as soon as I get a response will be notifying you all to the best of my ability.

I think that part of it is we, the public, are used to analog AM sounding like dippy-doo, so the fact that the new firmware is shrill as all get-out doesn't surprise us much.

There's also the issue of all the non-HD stations limiting their bandwidth. The NRSC deemphasis nonlinearity isn't as much of a factor on a station that's brickwalled everything above 5 kHz.

I'd hope that Sangean would improve it because (1) they can and (2) it would make their product a lot better, and not just because the sharp-pencil guys think it would bring in more bucks. But I know how that is.

A way for consumers to upgrade their firmware themselves might be a good thing to include in future models. Oppo Digital has gained the loylty of scads of customers, in part by providing constant improvements to their DVD player firmware, even though it doesn't make them a cent: http://www.oppodigital.com .

I whole heartedly agree. When and if we do make more models of HD Radio's we will be providing provisions for firmware upgrades. If they don't then I won't sell them.

There's also the issue of all the non-HD stations limiting their bandwidth. The NRSC deemphasis nonlinearity isn't as much of a factor on a station that's brickwalled everything above 5 kHz.


I disagree. Using 1 kHz as a reference, NRSC makes a 6.1 dB difference at 5 kHz. That's four times the power, a major difference easily audible to anyone.

Brian

"When and if we make more HD Radios...."? Is there a chance Sangean WON'T make more HD radios Master?

"When and if we make more HD Radios...."? Is there a chance Sangean WON'T make more HD radios Master?

I think there is always a chance, but that will depend more on the market. We are seeing a slow down in sales. Hopefully it is simply people getting ready for the holidays.

What I can say is that we will still make the portable/pocket radio, but that is the only one in full development at the moment. We will need to see the HDT-1X through before we go hopping onto another model. This company can normally only hold one model at a time. We are not big enough to release a new model every year, yet.

I suspect Master that what Sangean may be running into is that you've saturated the VERY SMALL market for component tuners. There's a reason Pioneer, Kenwood, Yamaha, and all the others who used to make great tuners have abandoned this product category. It has been my belief for some time that your initial success was due largely to their not having been a GOOD inexpensive tuner in more than a decade!

Nothing wrong with being the "only game in town" in a VERY SMALL market segment! Make a receiver, and see how ya' do!

While I would completely agree with you, I think that a large part is also that there is still a large segment of the public that still doesn't know about the component tuner. Take out HD side of it, I think that more people will buy if we could just find the right distibution channels.

We are working on it, but are finding that the network of specialty audio dealers are very snobish and don't like our product just because it isn't a Denon or other well known high end name. I am sure that even that segment of the market has seen its share of short lived brands that came out with one good product but could not follow through, and that we don't have the reputation in this segment of industry to warrant more consideration at this exact point in time. I hope to change that by attending CEDIA next week.

While I would completely agree with you,
We are working on it, but are finding that the network of specialty audio dealers are very snobish and don't like our product just because it isn't a Denon or other well known high end name.

I have this running joke aboout starting a line of businesses with similar names so that I can succeed by riding on their marketing. Such as "Starbuck" for a coffee place, "MacDonald" hamburgers, "Burger Kings," etc.

So brand your tuners "Denan" and see if they notice ...

Richard

I have this running joke aboout starting a line of businesses with similar names so that I can succeed by riding on their marketing.

Cough cough HD Radio cough

Master Theseus,

You are correct. There are many people who hear the numerous adds for HD radio, but have no idea how to get it. You have to find a way to jam it under their noses to get them to understand that a tuner is an add on device.

I have seen questions on the forum asking, do I need an amp? and where do I plug it in to my receiver?. As a mass marketer you have to devise a method of educating the general public. How about box markings and signs on the shelves that read " ADD HD RADIO CHANNELS TO YOUR RECEIVER" Now your aim is focused on those not aware that it is possible to add this new technology to their existing devices.

You know some people get paid for this type of work ! :)

Master Theseus,

You are correct. There are many people who hear the numerous adds for HD radio, but have no idea how to get it. You have to find a way to jam it under their noses to get them to understand that a tuner is an add on device.

I have seen questions on the forum asking, do I need an amp? and where do I plug it in to my receiver?. As a mass marketer you have to devise a method of educating the general public. How about box markings and signs on the shelves that read " ADD HD RADIO CHANNELS TO YOUR RECEIVER" Now your aim is focused on those not aware that it is possible to add this new technology to their existing devices.

You know some people get paid for this type of work ! :)


Well I sure don't get paid to do that!! Ha ha. .. . I wish we could chang the box, but we will see.

I suspect Master that what Sangean may be running into is that you've saturated the VERY SMALL market for component tuners.

The modular component thing has definitely seen its day. Now people buy one box and expect it to do everything. It's very rare to see systems with a separate tuner these days.

It's not surprising. What they call "receivers" these days are quite different from what I was calling a receiver twenty years ago. Back then they had AM (not stereo) and FM stereo and a decent amplifier with inputs for your turntable and a tape deck. Some would even decode Dolby Surround. Now you have "receivers" that still receive AM (still not stereo) and FM stereo, but have separate 100 watt amplifiers for five speakers with optical and coax SPDIF inputs and HDMI inputs that will decode all kinds of digital formats including Dolby Digital and DTS (not to mention old PCM) and have dozens of different effects and modes that you could waste an afternoon playing with. You get all this for about $300, about what I paid in 1980 dollars for my first "receiver".

When I got one of these, I spent a day flipping through the confusing manual trying to get everything to work. I don't know how the average person could do any better when a large percentage of them can't connect their speakers in phase. :confused:

The modular component thing has definitely seen its day. Now people buy one box and expect it to do everything. It's very rare to see systems with a separate tuner these days.

It's not surprising. What they call "receivers" these days are quite different from what I was calling a receiver twenty years ago. Back then they had AM (not stereo) and FM stereo and a decent amplifier with inputs for your turntable and a tape deck. Some would even decode Dolby Surround. Now you have "receivers" that still receive AM (still not stereo) and FM stereo, but have separate 100 watt amplifiers for five speakers with optical and coax SPDIF inputs and HDMI inputs that will decode all kinds of digital formats including Dolby Digital and DTS (not to mention old PCM) and have dozens of different effects and modes that you could waste an afternoon playing with. You get all this for about $300, about what I paid in 1980 dollars for my first "receiver".

When I got one of these, I spent a day flipping through the confusing manual trying to get everything to work. I don't know how the average person could do any better when a large percentage of them can't connect their speakers in phase. :confused:

Yet if Sangean sticks with it, they may end up with a high-end reputation, even if they don't sell a ton of them. That reputation may be their best marketing ever. It is a fine tuner for the price.

The modular component thing has definitely seen its day. Now people buy one box and expect it to do everything. It's very rare to see systems with a separate tuner these days.

It's not surprising. What they call "receivers" these days are quite different from what I was calling a receiver twenty years ago. Back then they had AM (not stereo) and FM stereo and a decent amplifier with inputs for your turntable and a tape deck. Some would even decode Dolby Surround. Now you have "receivers" that still receive AM (still not stereo) and FM stereo, but have separate 100 watt amplifiers for five speakers with optical and coax SPDIF inputs and HDMI inputs that will decode all kinds of digital formats including Dolby Digital and DTS (not to mention old PCM) and have dozens of different effects and modes that you could waste an afternoon playing with. You get all this for about $300, about what I paid in 1980 dollars for my first "receiver".

When I got one of these, I spent a day flipping through the confusing manual trying to get everything to work. I don't know how the average person could do any better when a large percentage of them can't connect their speakers in phase. :confused:

I think you are so right scowl, but it didn't stop me from ordering a Sangean HTD-1X. I've been on most of the Onkyo receiver forums trying to decide which model to get. The top-of-the-line 905 model has an HD tuner built-in but is in short supply and lists for $2099. I suspect that HD tuners will become standard equipment on receivers, much like the XM and Sirius connectors many now have. Remember when airbags were introduced by Mercedes and over the years filtered down to the most inexpensive cars? But for the time being, I'll buy a cheaper receiver and use the Sangean as the tuner.
The manuals that come with most AV receivers seem to require a weekend to fully digest. I'd like to meet some of the people who wrote them. Can you imagine giving one to an 80 y.o. grandmother to set up by herself? I'd be better off letting her figure out how to get my TV tuner card to work under Linux:p

It's not surprising. What they call "receivers" these days are quite different from what I was calling a receiver twenty years ago. Back then they had AM (not stereo) and FM stereo and a decent amplifier with inputs for your turntable and a tape deck. Some would even decode Dolby Surround. Now you have "receivers" that still receive AM (still not stereo) and FM stereo, but have separate 100 watt amplifiers for five speakers with optical and coax SPDIF inputs and HDMI inputs that will decode all kinds of digital formats including Dolby Digital and DTS (not to mention old PCM) and have dozens of different effects and modes that you could waste an afternoon playing with. You get all this for about $300, about what I paid in 1980 dollars for my first "receiver".


Yes - and try listening to FM radio on one of the new receivers and compare it one from 20-30 years ago. No comparison. I have a 7 channel digital AVR with all the features and like them. But I still run the 2 main channels out through a vintage receiver with a real FM tuner, because the FM section on the new AVR sounds terrible.

But most people don't care, since they think they have to buy XM satellite radio to get good sound anyway. They have never heard or forgot how good FM can sound. Maybe that will help HD gain acceptance as well.

Can anyone here confirm if the Version 1.4F upgrade to the HDT-1 does indeed disable analog AM Stereo reception? My HDT-1 is version 1.3F, and it does appear to have AM Stereo ability. The only way I could half-confirm this is to tune a strong station at 1640 kHz (KDIA) and leave it there for a few minutes, then hit manual-tune up to 1650 which has no local station. The background noise on 1650 was in stereo for a moment before going to mono, so I figure that means the Sangean was in C-QUAM mode on 1640. (I chose the 1640 station because supposedly all statons in the expanded band above 1600 are required to be in stereo.)

Since the HDT-1X specifically has analog AM Stereo ability including a stereo indicator, it seems unlikely that it would be deleted in the HDT-1's firmware.

Chris, 1.4F does indeed receive C-QUAM AM stereo, as do all HDT-1 and HDT-1X versions.

Not all stations above 1600 transmit AM stereo. The FCC does not enforce the rule.

You may be able to receive stereo from Disney from Fresno on 1680 in late afternoon or early evening. The music itself has been monophonic whenever I have listened. But if you listen closely, you'll hear the sound take on a barrel quality 5-10 seconds after you tune in the signal, and the background noise will split into uncorrelated left-and right-channel noise perhaps half a minute later. These effects are easily heard with headphones.

1.4F has a stereo indicator that works for C-QUAM. It makes identifying an AM stereo transmission much easier.

Brian

Word of warning . . . I've found that my HDT-1 (1.4f) is extremely picky about kicking into AM Stereo. It adamantly refuses to work with my Alfredo Lite part 15 transmitter, and it takes considerable coaxing and an unusually clean signal to bring in the stereo on KFOX (our only remaining C-QUAM semi-local).

Long story short . . . it does not *officially* support C-QUAM, so no whining if it doesn't work. (Whining about nighttime AM HD not working, on the other hand, is encouraged.)

My HDT-1 and HDT-1X switch to AM stereo on very noisy signals, way too noisy to consider listening to. However, when bench testing the tuners I found that the AM stereo pilot had to be within a 2-dB range, which seems awfully narrow.

The only AM stereo signals I've been able to detect here near San Diego are 1650 in L.A. and El Paso, and 1680 in Fresno. 1350 switched to stereo on a few occasions, but I never identified the station and haven't seen it recently.

Brian

Thank you for the clarifications, Brian, as well as for your excellent reviews of the HDT-1 and HDT-1X.

Does Sangean publish a specification chart that is in a format that any Hifi magazine would use the one that I recived from Sangean is confusing and not in a standard format. I am surprised that on any literature you don't publish complete specifictions.
Also when comparing the HDT-1X inner-station hiss that is when tuned between stations with another tuner (tried on more than one tuner with flat response) the 3.3 db drop off in high freq response becomes noticeable is there any future firmware upgrades that will take care of this problem. I mechion this because someday fm stations might broadcast in full fidelity.

If you're talking about what I think you are, it isn't a Sangean specification. It appears to be the iBiquity minimum performance standards they use when certifying an HD Radio product.

The HDT-1 and HDT-1X roll off the high end when the signal is weak. This is probably what you're hearing. The response is 3 dB down at just 2.9 kHz when fully activiated, as it would be on interstation noise. This roll-off doesn't occur for reasonably strong signals.

Brian

Wow. . . The first to come out and say the worst.

As for why we don't publish complete specifications is because we have found that this information does little to sell the radios and is often lost on the readers and increases confusion. The other reason is that I don't have a spec sheet, and we have never published on on the HDT-1X that I can recall. . . So I don't know where you even found these numbers?

I have one of those little scanning tuners from a 99 cent store. Its frequency response is worse than the HDT-1X. :confused:

Ok I'm not joking this time. Want to turn the HDT-1x's successor (r a HDT-1x version 2) into a legend, and build a huge niche following? Build either a custom version with ultra-high end (all the latest trendy caps, circuits, and doo-dads) output, put the most expensive output connectors in the damn thing, wire it with high-end cable, and make sure the freakin' box looks full of goodies when the "tweaks" "pop the top" on it, and you'll sell a lot of 'em to audiofools, er...audiophiles. Put tubes in the output circuit (hell, if they degrade the sound, just have 'em light up...these idiots largely don't understand electronics, so they won't figure it out), and you'll sell even more. No poop.

"Audiofools" love to think they've reinvented the wheel. They LOVE to find "hidden magic" in old technology like tubes (ok, there is sometimes something nice about tube sound, but I don't kid myself that it's about accuracy!) They LOVE the idea of strapping new technology like HD Radio, or in years past the CD onto technology your grandparents would have been familiar with, and again..."uncorking" hidden magic. Give the freaks what they want! Let them pay 1200 dollars for a 200 dollar tuner! If you do it right, it shouldn't even sound or measure (much) worse than the one that REAL smart people bought for a couple of hundred bucks!

Hell, get a high end company with real "creds" in this market to "co-produce" a "super-tuner" version of your HDT-1x. Whatever you do, don't give up on the technology! I've thought from the beginning that a standalone tuner wasn't the form-factor that would take off with Joe Public. But these high-end table radios are hot now. And RECEIVERS, particularly with surround sound and multi-room capability, combined (or combinable) with home automation systems...THAT'S what's selling!

By the way, have you tried marketing the HDT-1X to custom installers? When the rich doctors and lawyers hire someone to wire up their place with custom equipment, what's another couple of "Benjamins" for a tuner with the latest technology that can work off the same remote, and be heard throughout the home?

I notice when tuned to an fm station that is not broadcasting in stereo and they have a HD2 channel that is broadcasting in stereo when listening to the main channel the stereo indicator is on when the program is not in stereo. is this a firmware bug I think Sangean released the HDT-1X to the marketplace to soon before they had all the bugs worked out of it since the unit I have has beta firmware. I sent my unit back to Sangean costing many dollars to have it shipped and supposely upgraded when I talked to the person at Sangean he did not seem to be able to tell me what would be gained by the upgrade if anything. I still have not got the unit back yet so I can"t tell what was gained.
I think Brian Beezley excellent website gives a lot of insite of the problems with the HDT-1 & HDT-1X tuners. and maybe Sangean management should look at his website to get some ideals for improving the HDt-1X tuner.

A station can be in mono but still sending the stereo pilot. It may not be a defect. You sure the station isn't sending out a stereo pilot tone?


I notice when tuned to an fm station that is not broadcasting in stereo and they have a HD2 channel that is broadcasting in stereo when listening to the main channel the stereo indicator is on when the program is not in stereo. is this a firmware bug I think Sangean released the HDT-1X to the marketplace to soon before they had all the bugs worked out of it since the unit I have has beta firmware. I sent my unit back to Sangean costing many dollars to have it shipped and supposely upgraded when I talked to the person at Sangean he did not seem to be able to tell me what would be gained by the upgrade if anything. I still have not got the unit back yet so I can"t tell what was gained.
I think Brian Beezley excellent website gives a lot of insite of the problems with the HDT-1 & HDT-1X tuners. and maybe Sangean management should look at his website to get some ideals for improving the HDt-1X tuner.

yes I am sure because on other tuners the lite is off this station has always turned off the stereo when broadcasting a talk program.

pmm44-

Have you seen the stereo indicator off when using other HD Radio tuners, in digital mode?

Stations sending out mono signals with the stereo plot tone is perfectly normal. Infact, the only stations I know of that don't send out a stereo plot 24/7 are NPR talk stations. One of ours (KNOW 91.1) will send out a stereo plot only when broadcasting stereo material (prairie home companion). I guess what I'm saying is... there are only a few exceptions to the 24/7 stereo rule.

btw, if you have real concerns, set up two tuners (the Sangean and another model) and see what you get.

Yes I tried another tuner at the same time and is an NPR station that don"t broadcast stereo 24/7. In fact I tried it on two other Tuners a SAE 8000 and a Yamaha TX 1000 which are high end tuners. What is the sense of having a stereo indicator that don"t work all fhe time.

Wait a second . . . is that stereo indicator on when you're listening to the analog, or to the digital? Cause you can also have a stereo digital stream with a mono program on it, regardless of what the analog is doing.

Narkspud is asking the same question I did. It is quite likely that the "stereo" indicator on any HD tuner is on in digital mode full-time, either because there may be no "digital mono" mode at all, or because no station would bother to turn it on if there even is one.

Yes, I agree with Narkspud. But I also conceed that it is entirely possible that the Stereo indicator is merely to indicate whether the stereo is selected in the stereo/mono selection and not as much an indicator if the program is in stereo. . . But then again I am always having trouble understanding what they world the factory is doing sometimes.

In HD mode but I think it happens in analog mode too. I have not got the unit back from Sangean yet. so I can't try it.

I have not gotten a response on if any future changes are going to be made. I am in constant state of reminding them to fix it, but I believe they are waiting to see if there are that many complaints about the lack of it before the proceed.

So far I have had practically no complaints about the lack of NRSC deimphasis on AM in the HDT-1X. Is that because no one listens to AM Analog? Because there aren't enough in the market yeat? Or simply that no one really notices. I don't know, but I am keeping an eye on it and as soon as I get a response will be notifying you all to the best of my ability.
M.T., please keep us informed. I have been considering the HDT-1X, but if a firmware update to fix the AM and FM de-emphasis errors (and hopefully some of the other bugs that have been identified) is in the pipeline, then I would rather wait for the new revision to be released.

And I know you consider the tuner's C-Quam AM Stereo support to essentially be a "mistake," but please consider at least mentioning its existence in the tuner's documentation and literature. A lot of the people buying HD Radio receivers today are the same ones who bought AM Stereo receivers in the '80s and '90s, so it would definitely be an extra attraction -- a "value-added feature", if you will -- to the buyers considering the HDT-1/1X, if they knew about it.

What is the current firmware version of the HDT-1X and I recently got a replacement tuner from Sangean which is a version 2 according to Brian Breezley web site there is a version 3 available. the firmware is 1.12 beta version.

I also understand the HDT-1X is firmware is upgradeable is this true can you confirm this.

The version 3 is a limited edition for now. It features single-step preset recall and discrete power commands. I am not aware of any other changes to the software.

The HDT-1X is firmware upgradable but only by us, the factory, not by the consumer, yet. I am looking into what options are available, I think if anything I will look to develop an aftermarket option that can be used perhaps after warranty is void.

Hi all. I see that the HDT-1X is out, and is firmware-upgradeable. What about my HDT-1? If I send it to Sangean can they upgrade the firmware? Where can I find out more info on this? Apologies if this has been covered elsewhere, I did some searches on this forum (and on Google) with no luck.

The main thing I'm looking for is a fix for the clock losing time (though I'd love to have direct-access presets as well).

Thanks,

Carl

Its your choice. They will repair the clock, or upgrade the firmware if you are having a problem with a high audio level. Beyond that I dont't know. But it is your choice what part of the upgrade you want.

i've had HDT-1X for several months now and have not been all that happy with its performance for the following reasons:
1) granted the price is rather low, the look-and-feel of the unit is cheap overall. there was a noticeable scratch right on the top when first purchased. someone else mentioned this elsewhere. perhaps an over-ambitious packer with exacto knife?
2) firmware upgrade is not possible by the customer.
3) there is no way to save the settings (e.g., dim display) permanently. i do this every time i power on.
4) most importantly, FM receptions are not any better than my old Sony receiver. even after getting a "better" C.Crane reflect antenna, i'm basically getting 3 NPR stations.

can anyone elaborate on which outdoor antenna (types and brands) i should try?

4) most importantly, FM receptions are not any better than my old Sony receiver. even after getting a "better" C.Crane reflect antenna, i'm basically getting 3 NPR stations.I'm getting at least ten NPR stations here using the new Sony HD tuner and a Radio Shack VU-90 XR, VHF/UHF antenna (on a rotator), with a Winegard AP-8275 pre-amp.

I can't say that they're all coming in in HD, but they're all coming in clearly.

It's the mainstream, commercial stations that I'm having more problems receiving. Especially the subchannels. But if I had to choose one, I'd take the ten NPR stations anyday.

can anyone elaborate on which outdoor antenna (types and brands) i should try?

I have satisfactory results using the Magnum Dynalab ST-2 whip antenna mounted outdoors.

Mine is connected with my attic TV antenna and works well.

Any outdoor antenna works. Seems like Radio Shack usually has a better antenna at a better price than many places. Weird, I know.

Hello,

In case anyone is interested in purchasing the Sangean HDT-1 tuner,

I received the following email today from iBiquity Digital Corporation:

"Hello,

iBiquity Digital Corporation, developed the technology enabling terrestrial digital radio transmission and the Sangean radios are from a promotional build we contracted with radio manufacturer Sangean. iBiquity owns the radios but we are not in the retail business. We have consigned these for sale at a discount and we hope you take advantage of this opportunity.

Best Regards,"

The HDT-1 is being sold on amazon.com for them by egroup.com.

the price is 79.95. Which is a super-duper bargain.

Search amazon for it and you will find the listing.

d.

The version 3 is a limited edition for now. It features single-step preset recall and discrete power commands. I am not aware of any other changes to the software.

The HDT-1X is firmware upgradable but only by us, the factory, not by the consumer, yet. I am looking into what options are available, I think if anything I will look to develop an aftermarket option that can be used perhaps after warranty is void.

I've not been on this forum for 2 years since I bought my HDT-1X tuner. I've really not used it much because it did not impress me with its sound all that much and HD audio does not seem to be better than a good analog FM signal. The AM de-emphasis error also bugged me where I never used this tuner for AM listening really.

I just plugged this thing back in and have taken another mild interest in usng it. So I am wondering if there have been any updates since I last was active in this forum. Master Thesus are you still around to answer please?
Thank You!

I've not been on this forum for 2 years since I bought my HDT-1X tuner. I've really not used it much because it did not impress me with its sound all that much ...Thank You! I know what you mean. I took a $100 loss on my HDT-1 and bought a HDT-1X expecting better. Throught the SPDIF out to my Pioneer receiver the audio on FM and HD FM and AM sounds like it's rolled off above 7 or 8 kHz. Sibilance sounds are fuzzy and dull. Lesson learned: Don't buy a Hi-Fi HD digital tuner from a company who knows little about audio. Also, I had never hooked it up to the analog outputs until a couple of months ago when I did so to compare the audio. Through the RCA jacks, the L channel is about 10 dB lower than the right in all modes through the analog outs. SPDIF is OK. Not so good QC either. :(