Sangean HDT-1 Tuner [Text View]

Master Theseus

12-07-06, 12:45 PM

Thanks for getting the Manual online.

I've had a chance to review it and I'd say it's a solid "B". I compared it to an old Technics Tuner manual - less bloat and much easier to find what I'm looking for.

Perhaps I'm missing it, but I think it says that the main display is 'dimmed' when on standby. So, will I still notice the display and the Standby light when the room lights are out ? Does this show a Clock, then ? Can I completely turn the display * off ?

* So much of my equipment glows after they're turned off my room looks like a bad Christmas display !

On our original version the LCD backlight was so bright that it gave my entire living room an ominous white glow. I could almost read a book by it!

They have changed it since then and I am not sure exactly how dark it get's, but I can tell you one thing, unless the backlight is completely off I couldn't imagine it being dark enough at night. This screen is large and extremely bright. The LCD is the 2nd most expensive part of the whole unit.

I will make an attempt to take one home this weekend and let you know.

I also saw a question about reception. . . So far we have had over 100 radio stations get the HDT-1 and almost all of them have indicated that they intend to use these as signal monitors to tell them if their signal is proper. They tell me that it is the best tuner they have seen, even when compared to the "professional" versions that are over $1500. Their only problem is the lack of balaced outputs.

We also had a guy from CBS Radio try this out in his home about 40 miles from signal generation and in a low reception area and said that with his antenna he picked the stations, including FM in just fine. The only problem with the AM from my understanding is that they can not broadcast AM HD at night. . Correct me please if I am wrong. But otherwise Radio Disney sounds great!!

RCbridge

12-07-06, 01:39 PM

That display looks just like the Radio Shack Accurian, and it is very bright, and doesn't dim!
I really hope it goes out when the power switch is turned off!!

Master Theseus

12-07-06, 11:58 PM

That display looks just like the Radio Shack Accurian, and it is very bright, and doesn't dim!
I really hope it goes out when the power switch is turned off!!

Ok, so I actually have the HDT-1 setup in my stereo rack. Although you can't tell, they LCD is very bright. And when the power is off, it is darker, but not quite dark enough. Someday I will add the photos, but I don't feel like posting them on my website.

Dmon4u

12-08-06, 10:49 AM

Newegg wins the * availability (in stock) contest !

* For mainline sellers.

Bob Smith

12-08-06, 12:02 PM

Looks like I'm getting into HD radio big time! I ordered one from 'New Egg', tried to cancel the order at 'Sale Stores', and they said they thought it had been shipped.

Sure hope I like HD cuzz I might have two of them!

Bob Smith

twintandem

12-09-06, 12:11 PM

I ordered the unit from 123radios. They said it was in-stock, yes in customs. I requested 2nd day-air. I called 123... and ask what the status was. Tuesday the unit was released to Sangean. 123... called Sangean and had them ship it direct to me. That worked. In setting up the I found it was simple and the display was not to bright. When you turn it off the time is displayed. Tuning HD was simple and the unit picked up all but 2 FM stations in the Seattle area. I am using a CCRadio dipole. I have not tried AM yet. I noticed if you hold the display button down for two seconds it reveals the Advanced Infomation area. There you can reset, change contrast and look at the following; Bit Error Rate? Carrier S/N, Fuse Bit Check? Transmission Mode, Station ID, and Software version. What does the Bit Error Rate and Fuse Bit Check do? What are good #s here?

Dmon4u

12-09-06, 04:06 PM

Newegg sold out. Expected back in stock by the 15th.

* That was fast !

patrickjherbert

12-09-06, 05:21 PM

I I have not tried AM yet.

When you have a chance to check AM would you please report back? I am really curious about reception versus standard receivers ( see over here for my previous post.) (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9102556&&#post9102556)
Thanks!

krisztoforo

12-09-06, 09:45 PM

I noticed if you hold the display button down for two seconds it reveals the Advanced Infomation area. There you can reset, change contrast and look at the following; Bit Error Rate? Carrier S/N, Fuse Bit Check? Transmission Mode, Station ID, and Software version. What does the Bit Error Rate and Fuse Bit Check do? What are good #s here?

Does it show the bitrate (48kbps, 96kbps) of the radio signal?

Dmon4u

12-11-06, 10:50 AM

Now available at Amazon !

* I wonder how long the stock will last this time ?

twintandem

12-11-06, 11:50 AM

Master Theseus

12-11-06, 08:03 PM

Yes, with enclosed loop antenna. The sound is better than my Yamaha receiver. It appears they do not have any filters to reduce the response. Looking at the signal response it shows movement at the right end, I assume is 16~20 KHz. The graph is a curved banana shape, with the mid range as the highest point. I have not received the only HD AM KHHO yet. I will have to improve the antenna.

I see that you sent us an e-mail and decided that this would be useful in responding here so all can see.

In response to tuning in AM. I found that here, in LA at least the only thing I had to do was make sure the AM antenna was as far away from the radio as possible and at thehighest point you could get it. That was the recomendation from our engineeres in Taiwan and that worked for me.

As for your other questions. The information given in the advanced menu is information that would mean little to you, the user. They are mostly there for diagnostic purposes. But I will do my best to answer the questions at a later time.

For the ones I can answer, In listening to AM I noticed sound is better even on non-HD stations, why is this? - From my understanding each station decides how to adjust the HD signal and most FM and AM stations are still playing with their signals to find optimul performance ranges. That is why on some FM or AM stations you will hear some digitizing and other signs of low quality audio. Once the stations begin to finalize their signal you should notice the improvement. The other part to that answer would be that since AM HD is in stereo that could effect the overall sound if the source audio was converted to mono. I am sure one of the other people here are much more educated about sampling bitrates and other information.

Dmon4u

12-11-06, 09:30 PM

I was over at my local Tweeter store talking with some of the Salesmen. All expressed the desire to get one of these. I'm not sure if they have any real connections up the company chain of command, but they are asking for this.

It seems like the perfect component for their mid- to high-end product lines they carry.

Any idea if the HDT-1 was marketed to the Tweeter-HiFiBuys-Sound Advice-ShowcaseHomeEntertainment group ?

doxytuner

12-12-06, 11:11 AM

My research reflects the following prices for a component hd tuner:
Rotel-$900
Cambridge Soundworks-$300
Sangean-$200
I believe the Sangean is the best tuner regardless of price and ordered it yesterday from Amazon with free shipping. This morning Amazon is waiting for more tuners but expects to have it soon. There is also a $25 REBATE WHICH BRINGS THE PRICE DOWN TO $175.

Dmon4u

12-12-06, 11:44 AM

Newegg has it back in Stock three days early. I don't understand why J & R still does not have it, period.

Bob Smith

12-12-06, 12:06 PM

Mine arrives today from New Egg. Tried to cancel my order from Sale Stores, but not sure if I succeeded. Probably won't get to play with it until tomorrow morning at 5 AM because that is the only free time I can findk to play with my electrogadgets. I'm Pumped!

Bob Smith

n2ubp

12-12-06, 04:43 PM

Just ordered the HDT-1 from Amazon. It will replace a 1978 vintage Lafayette LA-40 tuner which was an early PLL model. I live about 50 miles NW of New York City. I have a YAGI and channel master 7777 preamp on the roof for FM. I have a longwire in the attic for AM. Too much RF noise in my house to make use of a loop antenna for AM.
I also have the JVC HD radio from Crutchfield in my car.

My questions:
Has the HD radio technology finally settled down ?
If there are changes made to the signal coding can these early radios be upgraded or "flashed" to receive the signal or do we toss them and buy new ?
I already submitted a $25 rebate for the JVC radio. Can I submit a second one for the Sangean or is it one to a customer ?

Steve

Master Theseus

12-12-06, 07:25 PM

We have pitched the HDT-1 to Tweeter and Crutchfield both and they don't see that the HDT-1 fit's in their product line and offering to consumers. I don't understand this logic, but that was their decision. So far every one of our dealers has run out of inital orders and has already placed 2nd and 3rd orders for the HDT-1.

We reccomend you calling them at corporate as consumers to ask why they felt the way they did and help out a small manufacturer like us.

But I will tell you all that we are continually receiving calls about how much people in positions of knowledge, especially broadcaster engineres think our radio (HDT-1) is the best tuner they have ever seen and feel it to be commercial grade quality.

All we can say is we hope that the consumers love this radio and we look forward to more suggestions for the 2nd generation already in design. So please e-mail me with any suggestions about what you would like to see the HDT-2 to have, look like, provide or changed. We look forward to hearing from you all.

Also, I will be at the CES and at the gathering, hopefully bearing HD Radio gifts ( I am trying to see if I can get a case or 2 of each to give to you guys). But please, don't let that distract you from buying!!!

Let the voice be heard and help make Sangean's HDT-2 the absolute best!!

Mike Walker

12-13-06, 10:40 AM

Get it at Universal Radio http://www.universal-radio.com

They're nice people, been in business FOREVER (if you're a radio geek, you'll love their website), and are very helpful. I can't wait to read what you guys think of it!

dfreeze

12-13-06, 11:19 AM

Ordered mine from 123radios. I would have been happy to order from Universal Radio but I got all of the way through the process and then discovered that they don't accept Amex.

Amazon is estimating a ship date of January 15th thru 19th right now. It showed in-stock earlier today when I placed my order. Now it shows that it isn't in stock.

Bob Smith

12-13-06, 11:25 AM

I spent about 2 hours with my HDT-1 this morning and am forming opinions about its performance. I took several notes, found the stations transmitting (I got 18), and listened to several of their offerings.

I am going to take more notes and get as much information as I can before I give a full report.

I will say this, BUY IT! It's one of the coolest electrogadgets I've bought in years. The last time I had this much fun was when I bought my first HDTV receiver many years ago, I was probably one of the only 5 people in Silicon Valley to see Chicago Hope in HDTV, the first network HD show in the Bay Area.

This thing is way cool. You won't get more bang for the buck than the measley $200 you spend for this thing. If you haven't completed your Christmas list, I'd suggest you ask your better half for one.

More Later,

Bob Smith

Bob Smith

12-14-06, 04:20 PM

I noticed the audio formats for all the stations I receive are "MP-1". Does this mean they are MPEG-1 Layer 3? I thought IBOC stations were using AAC for encoding. Maybe that explains why so many sound dead to me, nothing like the audio comparisons Mike posted.

Bob Smith

Picspop

12-14-06, 04:26 PM

I just received the Sangean HDT-1, and it lured me out of lurker status. My first impression of the product is to agree with Bob Smith, "this thing is way cool." Spent an hour going up the FM dial, logging 35 stations, 16 of them in HD, 11 of those with HD-2 streams, and two with HD-3 signals. I find no AM stations in HD, using the automatic HD scan, but I haven't had time to search the AM band manually. When I have spent more time listening, I will post my reception experience in the Atlanta thread.

doxytuner

12-14-06, 06:54 PM

For the best reception you need an outdoor FM antenna and rotator.( The best one is Winegard model HD 6065P). The best AM antenna is C. Crane's Twin Coil Ferrite AM antenna. An outstanding tuner will perform poorly without a quality antenna. A quality antenna is one that is adequate for the intended reception.

Picspop

12-14-06, 11:12 PM

I'm using a roof-mounted base-loaded whip antenna feeding a Radio Shack FM amplifier in the basement, followed by a 2-way splitter before the tuner. The house behind mine is at a higher elevation, and it must be blocking a couple of local stations that I can't quite pick up. Either that or I'm sitting in a standing wave null at those frequencies. Too bad; one of them is the best jazz station in Atlanta.

doxytuner

12-15-06, 08:02 AM

To Picspop: To solve your problem the following has to be done:
1-A signal strength meter is necessary to determine if there is a sufficient signal from the station(s).
2-If there is than the same meter is used to determine if your own system provides the signal(s) to the tuner.
3-If not, then the meter is used to check the integrity of you system-loose connections etc.
4-If your system is ok and you still cannot get the signal(s) then you may need a new FM antenna(Winegard has various models.) or even a rotor.
5-Which Fm antenna model to buy is determined by the strength of the signals from the station or stations involved. The directions from which the signals originate will determine if you need a rotar.
You may have to retain a qualified professional antenna installer with a signal strength meter to do this limited work and then you could do all the other work yourself including all the purchases. Good Luck.

n2ubp

12-15-06, 10:03 AM

The signal to noise ratio of most Radio Shack preamps are pretty bad. Better to take a hint and go for a Channel Master 7777 or if you want burning edge echnology a guy in the UK sells
super low noise preamps for about $150 US.

I did some HD / IBOC homework and here is what I found.
Chatted with a broadcast engineer that confirms that the HDT-1 is very popular as a monitor and replacing rack mounted HD car radios at many HD broadcast sites.

No plans to change or upgrade the current HD / IBOC codec, however if it ever did occur
the plan is to "flash" the receivers with the current code via the HD radio signal, much like what is done with satellite TV receivers.

If you hear delays when your radio falls back from HD to analog the broadcaster has taken the easy / cheap way out. It should be seamless. Call the radio station and complain.

Lots of engineers think no one is listening to HD so won't put the time into it to do it right.
Let the stations know YOU are listening

tech info from other sites. For some reason I can't post the links:
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Delay, Air Monitoring Vital to HD-R Listening

by W.C. Alexander, 11.22.2006
The author is director of engineering for Crawford Broadcasting.

When a station moves into the HD Radio world, its engineers have to change their thinking about a lot of things. One important consideration is the 8.4-second audio diversity delay that will be added to the analog audio path.

What listeners hear on their radios — and what will be heard on the studio off-air monitor unless remedial steps are taken — will be 8.4 seconds behind real time. That makes real-time off-air monitoring impossible.

Some stations, even big-market FM facilities, simply leave the diversity delay off, figuring that until a certain percentage of listeners are listening to the HD signal, it doesn’t matter. That momentarily solves the monitoring problem, but it also creates a big problem for the listeners who do have HD Radio receivers.

Fringe-area HD Radio listeners — or core listening area listeners if there are multipath and other signal anomalies within the coverage area — will find the station unlistenable as the “blend to analog” feature of the radio works back and forth between the delayed digital and undelayed analog signals. That’s a big tune-out factor and will not help sell IBOC receivers, so it’s advisable to get the diversity delay set right from day one, and that means finding a way to monitor in the studio.

Get creative

Stations that operate profanity delays full-time have likely addressed the issue already and developed ways to handle the studio monitor issue. Others will have to get creative.

There are two important considerations: providing on-air talent with a processed “air monitor” feed and providing some sort of confidence monitoring.

Some engineers have taken an old audio processor, run a program DA output through it and connected it to the studio headphone feed, switching between a “live” (i.e. “delayed”) air monitor feed and the pseudo-air monitor feed from the processor with the monitor mute relay. That works, but it can be confusing to talent when 8.4 seconds “disappear” when they turn the studio mic on.

Perhaps a better option is to provide those two feeds — the live, delayed off-air feed and the pseudo-air monitor feed from the processor on the EXT1 and EXT2 monitor inputs, respectively. The normal monitor mode would be the pseudo-air monitor feed.

A silence sense unit, available inexpensively from RDL or others, can then be used to monitor the real off-air signal, operating a highly-visible warning light in the studio when more than five seconds of silence is detected in the live, off-air monitor. When the warning light illuminates, the operator can then punch over to EXT1 and check the live monitor and take remedial action if necessary.

The live monitor should also be used to feed office speakers in the lobby, restrooms and common areas so the station staff can keep an ear on what’s really going out over the air.

Some provision for monitoring the HD Radio signal should also be provided, either by means of another external studio monitor input, if available, or a muted HD Radio receiver in the studio. It’s a good idea to connect a true HD Radio off-air feed to a separate silence sense detector and warning light to alert operators and engineers that there is a problem with the IBOC audio.

n2ubp

12-15-06, 10:03 PM

UPS delivered my HDT-1 around 5pm this evening.
About half the height of my 1978 vintage tuner.
As a quick test I plugged it into my antenna coax patch panel and jacked it into the amplifier.

Since it was past twilight I could not test out AM HD.
With the Winegard on the roof pointed towars the Empire State Building, 60 miles southeast I picked up 16 FM HD stations. Turning the antenna north, east, and west brought in 4 more FM HD stations. Switched over to AM using the supplied loop, which at ground level and time being well past the grey line resulted in reasonable results. I suspect analog AM bandwidth is narrower than what I am used to with the old receiver, a Lafayette LT-40, my portable Sangean ATS-803A, or my GE SuperRadio III. A simple narrow / wide bandwidth switch might make the rig more attractive to the guys who like higher end gear. Will try my 150 foot longwire in the backyard and the dipole in the attic.

Dmon4u

12-16-06, 01:15 AM

J & R finally changed their notice to "Temporarily out of Stock", instead of Coming Soon.

randy van

12-16-06, 06:50 AM

i got one thurs. from 123 radio and it works great. i do have a 13 element winguard fm antenna on it and reception is cd quality. anyone else try it yet?

doxytuner

12-16-06, 09:45 PM

My experience is the same as yours with my Winegard antenna(127") and rotator. I've gotten stations from 5 states. It's a great tuner.

doxytuner

12-17-06, 11:03 AM

On 12/12/06 Master Theseus of Sangean requested suggestions to improve the next Sangean HD Tuner. First I would like to compliment them for an outstanding Hd Tuner. My suggestions are as follows:
1-Credit card remote is too small and should be replaced with a standard remote.
2-All we need is one AM Band and one FM Band, not two of each which is cumbersome.
3-LCD display should have a dimmer switch.
4-Manual should have specifications in it and definitions of abreviations such as RDS etc.
and explain what each advance screen means.
5-Also mention the importance of a quality FM and AM antenna and the fact that you will not get HD until you pass a certain threshold of signal strength for AM and FM.
6-There may be other suggestions but these are the ones meaningful to me.

Picspop

12-17-06, 01:37 PM

My suggestions for the next iteration of the HDT-1:
1) An audio output attenuator control (rear panel) to adjust the level to match other sources in the stereo system.
2) A small mirror or rotatable right-angle prism mounted over the IR remote control receiver so the remote can be used when seated at a wide angle from the tuner's face.

Fissiongrubbs

12-17-06, 04:43 PM

Sounds brassy, harsh, fatiguing to listen to. Bass sounds like it's coming from behind the neighbor's wall, compression usually robs the bass of detail and that is what I hear. Compression completely destroys all detail in the music, so cymballs for example sound like a blur of noise. Guitar strings have pitch, but you can't really tell what kind of guitar string is used. Same with violins, you can't hear the wood the violin is made from. Cellos should sound warm and buttery, no such luck. The classical station in DFW does use the full bitrate afaik.
The music stations at the -48 or -49 kbps encoder level to me are unlistenable. Brass instruments reduced to metallic buzzing noise.
WHy DO this with the low encoder rates used? I don't get it. Satellites have limited bandwidth, computer hard drives have limited space. Not so with broadcast FM, it simply is not necessary.
I would like the choice to turn HD on or off at will. Perhaps the preprocessing in this early stage is part of the problem. It would be worthwhile to invest more into the analog section so the owner would be more satisfied with or without the HD. My old Sansui TU-217 is staying right where it is, plugged in.
Sangean does not publish the distortion levels of this tuner, maybe their wasn't room in the manual to do so. I was concerned that in this price point smaller capacitors in the output stage might have been used in place of a more suitable component, but there are too many variables for me to say.
Pleasant surpise- I can receive 2 AM HD stations. AM HD sounds like a true breakthrough to me, and I welcome more of it. Also the tuner enthusiastically was able to pick up everything with virtually no major antenna fussing required, so I have to really commend Sangean for solving all of the reception issues on the very first component tuner.
PS This audition was on a Sansui AU-217 Integrated amplifier using DCM TF-600 Timeframe paired speakers.

doxytuner

12-17-06, 10:53 PM

I should have added to my suggestions to improve the HDT-1, as Fissiongrubbs mentioned,the following:
1-The ability to receive analog AM only and analog FM only to remedy the HD cutting in and out on weaker and not so weak stations.
2-The ability to receive mono FM and mono AM which reqires less sensitivity.
I might add that if you are willing to spend $900 on Rotel's HD component tuner you can overcome most of the objections but for me I'm willing to wait for the second generation HD radios and select an appropriate one which may very well be Sangean's HDT-2. Within the year there should be many more selections. At this point I'm satisfied with the HDT-1 as a first generation product knowing that improvements are on the way as with all electronics. After the rebate the net price of the HDT-1 is only $175.

RCbridge

12-18-06, 07:26 AM

Fissiongrubbs:
Thanks for the heads up, I have a very revealing audio system and from your description, I think I will wait awhile to purchase, I did purchase a R/S Acariun and for a table top it is okay, but for the main system I need good quality tuner I now have a Kenwood KT-8300.
Hopefully the next generation will be better or the Rotel will sound better.

n2ubp

12-18-06, 08:54 AM

Mike Walker

12-18-06, 08:57 AM

Compression does NOTHING to bass. Nothing. Low frequencies are, well...LOW. There is little information present, so it takes little data to completely encode it. So even at 20kbps, mp3 or Windows Media COMPLETELY encode everything below 100hz. Everything. So does aac+.

But bass instruments don't produce just low frequency sounds. The transient "snap" of a sharply picked electric bass, for instance, is actually in the upper midrange and treble. Ask an engineer what band to boost to bring out the electric bass, and let you more clearly hear what's being played. He'll tell you "somewhere between three and five kilohertz...sweep until you find the sweet spot". This is why some bass instruments CAN sound less clear due to compression artifacts, but it has nothing to do with "bass" per-se. A 250hz sample rate is more than adequate to fully encode everything below 100hz. Hence the "point one" in 5.1 audio...it takes a tenth as much data to encode a "channel" of low frequency content (below 100hz) as it does a "full bandwidth" channel (left/right/center/left back/right back). Actually that's being generous. It takes a lot less than a tenth!

Sorry to pick, but people who complain that lossy compression "destroys bass" just don't understand how it works. It's easy to demonstrate that it does NOTHING to low frequency content. Nothing at all.

As for HD radio sounding "brassy" and "shrill", some of that comes from stations being in the early phases of providing HD-2 channels, and not knowing how to set up encoding yet. Stations which use the entire 96khz for ONE audio channel undoubtedly sound better. But just as XM's sound quality has steadily improved (using the same aac+ codec), I am optimistic that HD radio will get better as well. Remember early color tv was so bad that characters often were instructed to wear primary colors, just to make sure they reproduced acceptablly (Gilligan's red shirt, the Skipper's blue one). Early Technicolor movies had a "color consultant" to advise which colors would show up on early color film, and which wouldn't. Technicolor may have been "pretty", but it sure as hell wasn't accurate.

Early CDs were "harsh" sounding because they were made from master tapes with highs deliberately boosted to compensate for anticipated losses when transferring to vinyl. I'm sure lots of HD sounds the same because stations are using the audio stream processed for the losses in analog FM. These problems have a way of working themselves out in time. It's part of the price we "early adopters" pay!

n2ubp

12-18-06, 09:11 AM

Make that variable attenuator............

wolfee

12-18-06, 10:31 AM

If a station broadcasts HD AM, will the HDR-1 receive it as analog, or not at all? Can I assume the FM tuner section is as good as the one in the HDT-1? Will HD FM have content that is beyond the ability of the tiny HDR-1 speakers to produce at all? If I have missed an HDR-1 thread somewhere, my apologies. Please direct me to it.

doxytuner

12-18-06, 02:22 PM

I agree with Mike Walker that the quality of the sound coming out of a component tuner depends on the quality of the tuner and the quality of broadcast signal. It's too early in the HD development stage to use the broadcast signal as a pure laboratory test signal.
Concerning N2UBP a variable attenuator is an option as is rotating your antenna.
Concerning WOLFE, the HDT-1 tuner is better than the HDR-1. The tiny HDR-1 speakers will be hard pressed to reproduce the equal of a component system. If a station broadcast HD-AM the HDR-1 can receive it as a digital or analog signal depending on the quality of the signal. This is why it is important to have a quality antenna which is adequate for the stations in question.

Bob Smith

12-18-06, 04:06 PM

Couldn't you force the tuner into analog mode if you reduced signal strengh from the antenna by adding an inexpensive attenuator, perhaps finding a sweet spot where the signal provides
reasonable analog reception but not good enough for HD reception ?

Steve

Trouble I find with mine is the analog FM signal is way too noisy to do a reasonable comparison on some stations already. The digital signal is coming in just fine, and the analog is noisy and distorted on one of my local stations.

Master Theseus

12-18-06, 04:31 PM

Sound quality and the HDT-1.

I have to firstly say thank you for your suggestions. Many of them I have already made to the design team and they are more than likely to be included.

One thing I have to point out is that the features and function were chosen by iBiquity Digital, Inc. We built the radio to fit the need they requested and their focus was less on the consumer end and more on the commercial end. We were the ones that decided to release for consumer use. This in mind we were limited in what it was able to do.

It is also our very first tuner and thus were were bound to get something wrong. We hope that we can accomodate all the suggestions, again most of them were already made by myself.

As for sound quality, this is a station issue. As mentioned previously the sound is determined by the stations and that will be the overall determining factor in sound quality from the tuner. I have the HDT-1 setup on my system and have to say that other than a few select stations in the LA area most all of the stations sound great!!! Possibly because of the size of the market the stations have dedicated more time and effort. I have noticed a dramatic improvement over even the last 3 weeks in the sound coming from the unit.

I will also add that if you will be at the CES, visit us, we may have a prototype HDT-2 on display! I have not gotten a confirmation from the factory, but they are working hard to have it. Booth 15017 Central Hall, LVCC.

Fissiongrubbs

12-18-06, 05:59 PM

Master Theseus

12-18-06, 06:23 PM

I have been the happy and proud owner of the Sangean pocket receiver model DT-110 for quite some time now, and NOBODY can make a radio like Sangean. I also know that Sangean makes radios other companies are proud to put their names on and sell as their own. If anybody can get the best sound out of HD radio I would look to Sangean first of all, so please I intend no offense in my honest opinion of my first experience with the HD format.
In the meantime I continue to listen and enjoy my HDT-1 as it has some very nice redeeming qualities to it as well as my more critical comments, so I am just hoping to help point the way forward in a direction that makes for the most happiness.
Thank you,
Fission grubbs

I take no personal offense to the comments. I believe in the products we took to market. I am confident that any shortcomings are likely the problems of HD Radio and not of our product. I have noticed that there are two situations in dealing with HD Radio.

Either they all sound bad, or they all sound good, the major difference between us and the competition is reception. Environmental factors seem to be an effect. I have one gentleman from Phoenix that can not get a decent HD AM signal on ANY HD Radio, ours included and he states he can see the towers of the stations on a hill above his house.

I have another that lives in Frisco, CA (San Francisco for those out of the know) who for the past 12 years could only receive Mono FM signals due to the multipath distortion, and he could also see the antennas and was amazed to find that with the HDT-1 he could pull in every single station in digital quality and spent the whole weekend enjoying Stereo FM for the first time in 12 years.

Picspop

12-19-06, 08:42 AM

Regarding reception problems: I had previously lamented that I could not receive the local jazz station, even with a roof antenna run through an amplifier. I now find that using the twinlead antenna supplied with the Sangean unit, hanging it vertically along the bookcase, the station in question (Clark Atlanta University's very fine WCLK) comes in strong. In our multipath-plagued world location is everything. This is simply an analogue issue, as the station is not broadcasting in digital. The solution in this case is aesthetically unacceptable, but the problem lies not with Sangean nor with HD radio.

Master Theseus

12-19-06, 03:12 PM

[QUOTE=doxytuner]On 12/12/06 Master Theseus of Sangean requested suggestions to improve the next Sangean HD Tuner. First I would like to compliment them for an outstanding Hd Tuner. My suggestions are as follows:
2-All we need is one AM Band and one FM Band, not two of each which is cumbersome.
QUOTE]

I never understood why, but for some reason the car stereo's I imported from China all were like this!! It drives me crazy!!! I have made that suggestion, and have so far not received a response as to why this is like it is.

But rest assured I am working hard to remove this annoyance from all future Sangean models and am working hard to get them to dramatically increase the amount of pre-sets. 20 on a band is not enough. In LA alone we have 13 HD stations, and with the multicast we are then looking at 26! Just on the HD Stations. . 20 is not enough on regular radio, let alone HD.

Picspop

12-19-06, 04:27 PM

One advantage I can think of for having two AM and two FM bands relates to the fact that the tuner remembers the last station tuned on each band. If you are trying to follow the scores on games carried concurrently on four stations, this would allow you to toggle among the stations. A toggle button would be better, like the channel recall button on TV remote controls.

JMpstar

12-19-06, 10:25 PM

I think I just might return my Accurian HD Radio and give this a try instead. Living 100+ miles away from HD radio transmitters, I need something with awesome reception and sensitivity. I'll save my money and get this one, methinks.

Quick question: what kind of speakers are you all using on this tuner? Would a cord that you would use to connect an iPod or something else to an auxiliary input work to connect this tuner to speakers? Which compatible speakers give you the best sound quality for the buck?

Thank you!

doxytuner

12-20-06, 12:48 AM

TO JMPSTAR
You'll need to have a professional antenna installer to check the signal strength of the FM signals in questions that are 100+ miles away with a signal strength meter. If there is sufficient signal strength you will need the best outdoor FM antenna such as Winegard's 127" antenna. The sensitivity of your tuner must be sufficient to utilize the FM signal. If all is well the tuner is connected to a receiver or preamplifer-amplifier or integrated amplifier and then any compatible speakers are connected to the the mentioned electronics. Your primary problem is the weak FM signal from 100+ miles away not the sensitivity of the tuner although that is a secondary problem. The strength of the AM signal from 100+ miles is also a problem.

klrtunz

12-20-06, 03:30 AM

I never understood why, but for some reason the car stereo's I imported from China all were like this!! It drives me crazy!!! I have made that suggestion, and have so far not received a response as to why this is like it is.

But rest assured I am working hard to remove this annoyance from all future Sangean models and am working hard to get them to dramatically increase the amount of pre-sets. 20 on a band is not enough. In LA alone we have 13 HD stations, and with the multicast we are then looking at 26! Just on the HD Stations. . 20 is not enough on regular radio, let alone HD.

Great discussion here. I just ordered an HDT-1 for evaluation, so it's good to hear some user feedback on what to look for. I've only evaluated automotive HD tuners' sound quality to this point, so it will be interesting to compare. Also, I'm curious how Sangean's PLL stacks up to the analog FM tuner I have at home

Just to explain why car stereos have multiple tuner bands (typically 2-FM and 1-AM, w/6 presets each): Primarily, it's because most head units only have 6 preset buttons located on the face for direct access. There isn't a lot of space for much more without getting cluttered, and it is difficult to navigate deep menu structures while driving.

Additionally, we (Alpine) have been making HD Tuners since the start, but our 1st gen were not capable of multi-casting, and therefore more presets were not deemed necessary. The new ones are, but there is still the driver distraction issue and other reasons to keep the preset count reasonable.

Looking forward to checking out the HDT-2 proto at CES!

J

klrtunz

12-20-06, 04:10 AM

By the way, I found one new table/portable HD tuner that has Toslink output (by Radiosophy). I've not heard of them before, but maybe we'll get one to check it out. No aux input for standalone use w/iPod though.

J

mattdp

12-20-06, 01:37 PM

klrtunz,
You might want to check out the thread on Radiosophy before ordering.

Master Theseus

12-20-06, 04:04 PM

Great discussion here. I just ordered an HDT-1 for evaluation, so it's good to hear some user feedback on what to look for. I've only evaluated automotive HD tuners' sound quality to this point, so it will be interesting to compare. Also, I'm curious how Sangean's PLL stacks up to the analog FM tuner I have at home

Just to explain why car stereos have multiple tuner bands (typically 2-FM and 1-AM, w/6 presets each): Primarily, it's because most head units only have 6 preset buttons located on the face for direct access. There isn't a lot of space for much more without getting cluttered, and it is difficult to navigate deep menu structures while driving.

Additionally, we (Alpine) have been making HD Tuners since the start, but our 1st gen were not capable of multi-casting, and therefore more presets were not deemed necessary. The new ones are, but there is still the driver distraction issue and other reasons to keep the preset count reasonable.

Looking forward to checking out the HDT-2 proto at CES!

J

I am not positive we will have the HDT-2 at the CES, but our engineres are working with it to see if they can get it ready. We have like 100 people working on is so who knows. . . They can act pretty fast when they want to, but they are also working on getting our Wi-Fi radio ready.

As for our PLL, we have been making radios for nearly 33 years and have received numerous commendations for our superior performance on both analog and PLL receivers. But that is besides HD Radio so I will not get into too much detail here.

At the gathering though I will be more than happy to share over a nice bottle of Jack. :rolleyes:

JMpstar

12-20-06, 04:17 PM

Master Theseus

12-20-06, 04:32 PM

Hi, Master Theseus. It was a pleasure talking to you earlier today. Just a quick question while we're on the subject of radio development. Is there a Sangean HDR-2 in the works (namely to make it number one as far as reception goes)? If so, I think I'll wait for that to come out.

Sorry for the thread hijacking; I just had to ask. Thank you!

No. We feel that as a whole we can not really improve the reception. The shortcomings of HD reception are a little more environmental that we can account for by simple engineering. As in most situations we feel that we have a product that we can be confident in.

For example, I have a rock station here in LA that for some reason, at different times of day with the radio and antenna not being touched I will get perfect reception, and then another day or time it will fade in and out. It is the only station I have any problem with, and have found it difficult to receive that station even with analog. Conversely I can receive this station at home on the HDR-1 any time day or night with no problems. This particular scenario in combination with discussions with our designers and engineers leads me to agree with the earlier assessment that they are environmental conditions that simple engineering will change.

mattdp

12-20-06, 06:07 PM

Master Theseus,
It just hit me... the HDT-2 should also be a WiFi radio. Yea, I know you guys are going to make a separate WiFi radio, but I think that you should have one that you should make a component tuner with both.

So... here are my suggestions for the HDT-2:

WiFi Radio:
-Full WMA, MP3, OGG Vorbis and AAC+ Support.
-Removable Co-Ax rubber ducky antenna (so you can attach a bigger, badder antenna).
-Ethernet jack

General:
-Optical and Coax S/PDIF jacks
-Balanced outputs
-A pot for adjusting the output of the RCA jacks (to match the level of the rest of the system)
-1/4" Front-mounted headphone jack and volume pot
-Some way to easily toggle between two different stations
-Separate analog and digital signal meters.
-I don't know how it would be to implement, but I'd be cool to have TWO FM antenna inputs and some way to specify the antenna in a preset.
-Again, I have no idea how expensive it would be to implement, but I'd love to see a multipath meter.

doxytuner

12-20-06, 06:37 PM

To Mattdp
What you request is something to pause about but it must be noted that not everyone wants everything in one unit since for for one reason or another much of what you suggested will not be used by everyone. A more salient point is the price point at which the manufacturer has to compete with other manufacturer's who will have everything the particular buyer needs, which is less than you suggested, and more importantly at a more favorable price. The manufacturer has to go with the flow and include what most buyers' want and not what a few buyers' want. It is a matter of economic viability for the manufacturer. I agree with your suggestions but it is not economically feasible.

n2ubp

12-20-06, 10:09 PM

I'd like to refocus this thread back towards the HDT-1.

There are no published specs for this product.

You can't expect to sell many boxes to consumers that are not familiar with the Sangean name without published specs or an independent test or review by a consumer magazine or web site.

Steve
N2UBP

doxytuner

12-21-06, 08:22 AM

Go to Master Theseus 12/5/06 and you'll get the web site with the specs. The specs start with page 2 but it was taken from a larger manual and page 1 is not applicable.

mattdp

12-21-06, 02:44 PM

doxytuner,
Your probably right... I don't think you could cram a WiFi radio and an HD Radio into a $200 unit, but I'm sure people would be willing to fork over the $$ for a 'deluxe' model with internet radio that costs $350+

I know some of my suggestions are just wishful thinking, but I just wanted to give my $.02 to the folks at Sangean.

doxytuner

12-21-06, 06:13 PM

MATTDP
Check out Rotel's web site and download the manual for the RT1084HD Tuner. The HD tuner retails for $900 and has a number of the things you suggested. Also check out Cambridge Soundworks HD tuner when it becomes available in January for $300. From what I see the Rotel is grossly overpriced and has outputs that few people will use such as three separate Sirius outlets so that you can play a different station in each of three rooms at the same time. It also has other useless features. The HDT-1 tuner which was made specifically for commercial use is an outstanding tuner although it lacks many fetures that consumers desire. The coming new consumer HDT-2 will be more appropriate for consumers and will be on my short list. Since the HDT-1 was only $175 it is palatable to buy another updated HD tuner in a relatively short time considering the fact that you can sell the HDT-1 as a setoff for the new tuner.

Bob Smith

12-22-06, 12:09 PM

I made some measurements of the analog sections of the Sangean HDT1 tuner. I also measured a Denon 680NAB for comparison purposes:

Sangean HDT1 vs Denon NAB-680 Tuners

Frequency Response

Amplitude dB, re 1KHz

Frequency KHz FM

Denon NAB680 Sangean HDT1

20 +0.16 -1.34
50 +0.16 -0.84
100 +0.46 -0.64
200 +0.40 -0.60
300 +0.44 -0.36
400 +0.30 -0.20
1K 0.00 0.00
2K -0.72 -0.32
3K -1.74 +0.66
4K -0.24 +1.36
5K -0.24 +1.36
6K +0.26 +1.76
7K +0.56 +1.96
8K +0.71 +1.96
9K +0.96 +1.86
10K +0.95 +1.30
11K +0.46 +0.36
12K +0.46 +0.16
13K +0.46 +0.06
14K +0.76 -0.34
15K +0.76 -1.34

Separation, dB, R to L

300 46.2 40.2
1K 46.2 41.0
5K 45.0 39.0
10K 42.0 35.0
12K 39.4 28.0
15K 10.0 33.0

Distortion, 1KHz, dB

-61 -61

AM measurements:

Sangean HDT1 vs Denon NAB-680 Tuners

Frequency Response

Amplitude dB, re 1KHz

Frequency KHz AM

Denon NAB680 Sangean HDT1

20 -19.2 -20.6
50 -3.5 -13.8
100 -0.8 -8.5
200 -0.2 -4.2
300 +0.04 -2.36
400 +0.03 -1.17
1K 0.00 0.00
2K -0.03 +0.03
3K -0.03 -0.23
4K -0.06 -1.16
5K -0.49 -2.39
6K -1.16 -3.56
7K -2.23 -6.33
8K -3.65 Gone
9K -5.39 Gone
10K -7.20 Gone
11K Gone Gone

Bob Smith

doxytuner

12-22-06, 12:55 PM

Master Theseus

12-22-06, 08:05 PM

BOB SMITH
The work you've done to get these numbers is appreciated but it is difficult to comprehend.
Can you put them into the standard traditional form with a short summary. Thank you for your help.

I agree. I have no idea what any of that means and if we did ok as far as it would be considered.

We did discuss the Wi-Fi in the HDT-2, and we felt the feature we are most likely to include is the ability to record to a 4GB solid state memory. This seemed to be a much more coveted feature than Wi-Fi, but we are looking into it, but then the price would likely be more towards $400 than the current projected price.

doxytuner

12-22-06, 09:02 PM

I can't see the WI-FI or the ability to record to a 4GB solid state since it would no longer be a traditional tuner and would be more expensive. Other components in the system can perform these auxillary functions. A tuner should be a tuner with high end capabilities and part of a component system and not a jack-of-all-trades. The reason you have a component system is to select the best of each and keep current with developments and update them accordingly. For me I have no intention of purchasing a combination component tuner unless it can be shown that there have been no compromises and the price point is in line with a quality component tuner and more important a traditional tuner from another manufacturer is not available. If you are not interested in quality audio it really makes no difference what you purchase.

Bob Smith

12-22-06, 09:44 PM

Frequency Response, FM Section Denon 680 NAB vs. Sangean HDT1

Frequency, Hz Response, dB

Denon 680NAB Sangean HDT1
20 +0.16 -1.34
50 +0.16 -0.84
100 +0.46 -0.64
200 +0.40 -0.60
300 +0.44 -0.36
400 +0.30 -0.20
1K 0.00 0.00
2K -0.72 -0.32
3K -1.74 +0.66
4K -0.24 +1.36
5K -0.24 +1.36
6K +0.26 +1.76
7K +0.56 +1.96
8K +0.71 +1.96
9K +0.96 +1.86
10K +0.95 +1.30
11K +0.46 +0.36
12K +0.46 +0.16
13K +0.46 +0.06
14K +0.76 -0.34
15K +0.76 -1.34

Separation, dB, R to L

300 46.2 40.2
1K 46.2 41.0
5K 45.0 39.0
10K 42.0 35.0
12K 39.4 28.0
15K 10.0 33.0

Distortion, 1KHz, dB (%)

-61 (.089) -61 (.089)

AM measurements

20 -19.2 -20.6
50 -3.5 -13.8
100 -0.8 -8.5
200 -0.2 -4.2
300 +0.04 -2.36
400 +0.03 -1.17
1K 0.00 0.00
2K -0.03 +0.03
3K -0.03 -0.23
4K -0.06 -1.16
5K -0.49 -2.39
6K -1.16 -3.56
7K -2.23 -6.33
8K -3.65 No Response
9K -5.39 " "
10K -7.20 " "
11K No Response " "

The above are measurements of the ANALOG portions of the Denon 680NAB Tuner and the Sangean HDT1 tuner.

The Denon 680NAB was a tuner sold in the mid 90s that optimized AM reception for the FCC approved transmit mask.

As shown, the FM performance of the HDT1 is quite good, with a little peaking in the mid-range. Separation and distortion are also good, with distortion equal to the Denon (probably the limit of my test equipment).

The AM performance (analog) of the Sangean is not as good with a 3 dB rolloff just below 300 Hz, about the same as a telephone. This explains why the sangean sounds thin in the bass on AM. The Sangean also has no usable response above 6 KHz. This is OK, since IBOC doesn't allow modulation above 5 KHz. AM response used to be as shown on the Denon prior to IBOC. The Denon also provided Stereo AM, which sounded quite good even compared to FM stereo.

Measurements were performed using an HP 329A Distortion Set, an HP 8640B AM signal generator (for AM), and a Sound Technology ST-1000A generator (For FM)

Bob Smith

Bob Smith

12-22-06, 09:48 PM

I'm sorry, I just spent about 45 minutes re-formatting the above data, and this Damned message generator screwed it all up. Please try to separate the above columns in the correct order. It goes, Frequency, Denon Frequency Response, Sangean Frequency Response.

If anyone can tell me how to format things correctly, please do.

Bob Smith :mad:

n2ubp

12-22-06, 10:22 PM

Bob,

Thank you very much for the measurements work.

At first I was concerned about the narrow frequency response for AM analog reception.
Then I thought it over. The analog AM stations I receive really don't provide much better than telephone quality audio even though we know historically AM analog is able to do alot more.
Considering this and the need to shield todays analog AM listener from IBOC hiss it should come as no surprise to us that we are left with an AM section with 3khz freq response. I suspect we will see more of this in the future and if IBOC / HD radio becomes more popular with broadcasters it will no longer matter.

Steve

kbc58

12-22-06, 11:06 PM

I'm new here and am interested in HD Radio too.My home theater is powered by a reciever.Can I hook the HDT-1 up to my reciever or only to an amp.

doxytuner

12-22-06, 11:28 PM

Bob, Thanks for your measurements which appy to ANALOG ONLY and indicates that FM is good and the AM is mediocre. Without measurement instruments it appears to me that the AM is better than your measurements reflect and the FM is what your measurements reflect.
Although this is subjective on my part it's worth noting for others who may or may not have the same experience.

doxytuner

12-22-06, 11:39 PM

KBC58
I just noted your question. You can utilize the inputs of your receiver or amplifier with the RCA outputs of the HDT-1 Tuner. What you cannot do is use the phono inputs(for record playing) if they are on your receiver or amplifier.

kbc58

12-22-06, 11:51 PM

I thought so.Thank you doxytuner.

Dmon4u

12-23-06, 01:04 PM

Just in case:

The 'Tape In' or 'Aux' inputs are what's usually marked on the back of the Receiver.

Another idea for some:

I also know someone that has his set up in a Kitchen/Dining Room area using the Auxiliary input of self-powered Klipsch computer speakers.

Sounds excellent !

wolfee

12-24-06, 09:32 PM

I'm not sure it wil capture the real brightness level, but would like to see it. btw, if you want a killer set of powered computer speakers that can deliver true hifi except for the very bottom end, check out the StudioPro 3's. They will accept either a mini jack or the HDT-1's RCA size jacks. Newegg has em cheap right now.

n2ubp

12-24-06, 10:21 PM

I got a chance today to take a few hours and put the HDT-1 to use.
I live about 50 miles northwest on New York City.
For FM I use a roof mounted 4 element Winegard Yagi and a Channel Master 7777 mast mounted pre-amp, rotor, and a 91XG UHF antenna for HDTV work RG-6 coax is our feed line.
For AM I was using an attic mounted dipole about 50 feet across total, fed thru some old RG-59 coax. It was thrown up years ago in a hurry just to get some kind of AM signal down to my old tuner. The s meter on the old tuner sat about two thirds up the meter with the dipole. I also have a 150 foot longwire running out to a tree in my back yard, fed by RG-8.

FM. Picked up about 16 HD stations. 88.3 WBGO in Patterson, NJ was hard to bring in due to adjacent channel interference from 88.5. I swung slightly west to null out 88.5 and the HD kicked in.

AM: The old dipole in the attic did not cut the mustard with AM HD. Only station I could pickup was WABC 770. SSI on most AM stations was a lousy 2 or 3. Why so poor compared to the old tuner ? Anyhow it would not do the trick. I went up into the attic and reconfigured the antenna into a long wire, no grounds up there for the coax shield. Still a lousy signal. Finally I put an jumper wire between the coax shield and the metal air handler of the central A/C unit and the SSI climbed from 2 to 10 for 880 WCBS and HD locked in. Iknow. a lousy ground but at least it was a ground where none was available. Now I can pick up WOR 710, 660 WFAN, 770 WABC, 880 WCBS AM in HD. A good start.

Summary,
The HDT-1 likes a reasonable antenna for AM and FM, especially if you are out of town.
A strong signal does not always equate to a HD lock, especially if you have local RFI or adjancent channel issues on FM. The antenna rotor comes in handy.

That's all for tonight. Merry Christmas.
Steve
73 de N2UBP

Bob Smith

12-25-06, 08:44 AM

Steve, be sure to leave the loop antenna connected to the tuner when you use an external antenna. This loop is needed for the front end to tune. Try making a loop with 10 turns of wire or so, and connecting this to your external antenna. Inductivly couple this loop to the existing loop. If you have an antenna tuner that works on 160 meters, it might also have enough range to tune the attic aerial to the loop. The antenna in the roof is quite short at broadcast frequencies, and a tuner might help.

Bob Smith

doxytuner

12-25-06, 11:13 AM

BOB SMITH,
Please clarify your antenna suggestions. At present I have a 127" outdoor FM rotatory antenna connected to the 75 ohm input of the HDT-1 tuner and Terk's internal AM Advantage Antenna connected to the AM input antenna terminal. What are you suggesting should be done to enhance their performance and physically how should it be done and how will it improve the AM or/and FM signal utilized by the HDT-1 tuner. ( A long wire external AM antenna is not a favorable option since its bulky and has its own problems.)

Bob Smith

12-25-06, 01:32 PM

[QUOTE=doxytuner]BOB SMITH,
Please clarify your antenna suggestions. At present I have a 127" outdoor FM rotatory antenna connected to the 75 ohm input of the HDT-1 tuner and Terk's internal AM Advantage Antenna connected to the AM input antenna terminal. What are you suggesting should be done to enhance their performance and physically how should it be done and how will it improve the AM or/and FM signal utilized by the HDT-1 tuner. ( A long wire external AM antenna is not a favorable option since its bulky and has its own problems.)[/QUOT

Your FM is perfect, don't change a thing. I need to read more about the Terk to know how it is connected. Could you give me the model number? It's probably just fine the way you are using it IF it has an onboard tuning 'trimmer'. You need a stage of selectivity in front of the AM antenna terminals which you may be giving up if you don't have the supplied loop with the unit. Again, I need to study the operating instructions for the Terk before I give advice.

Have a great Christmas!

Bob Smith

doxytuner

12-25-06, 10:37 PM

BOB SMITH
Thanks for your help, TERK'S AM Advantage Antenna Model AM-1000 does have an onboard tuning trimmer thus I'm all set. I also have the Select-A-Tenna Am Antenna Model 541-M which also has a tuning trimmer and is similar in performance but is used in another system.
Additionally I have the TWIN COIL FERRITE AM ANTENNA BY C.CRANE with two tuning trimmers(coarse and fine) which is superior to both of the above AM ANTENNAS but has a major drawback in that the ANTENNA ELEMENT is made for a permanent installation and is not made for orientation to receive the strongest signal. On the other hand the two former antennas are made for orientation of the ANTENNA ELEMENT for each station. Thus if you are interested only in AM stations in one direction, you should buy the TWIN COIL FERRITE AM ANTENNA but if desire AM stations in more than one direction you should purchase one of the other AM ANENNAS. Prices are as follows; THE TWIN COIL is $100, the TERK is $40 and the SELECT-A-TENNA is $70.

n2ubp

12-26-06, 08:50 AM

Bob,

I gather the Sangean supplied loop should be placed in series with the longwire antenna and not in parallel ?

Steve

doxytuner

12-26-06, 11:44 AM

STEVE,
I'm waiting to hear from Bob, the electrical engineer, as you are on the series and parallel issue which you raised. In the interim I ran an experiment and ascertained that each lead of the AM antenna works with the hot AM input and neither works with the AM ground input. This being the case it would appear that attaching the loop antenna in series in the hot end would have the desired effect as you suggested. I tried it but it had no effect. I then tried it in parallel in the hot end and it had no effect. I also attached the loop in parallel with the hot and ground leads and it had no effect. I may have done something wrong or the fact I'm using the TERK AM INDOOR ANTENNA may have something to do with my results. We'll have to wait for Bob to clear this up.

N1ZZN

12-26-06, 01:26 PM

Why isn't Sangean advertising anywhere that the HDT-1 has AM Stereo? Someone posted yesterday on an AM Stereo list that I'm on about the Accurian having it, and I tried the HDT-1 for the heck of it, and what a surprise, it has stereo too!

I suppose with the tuner being software that it was a very easy addition to make, unlike analog tuners in the past? I hope all future models also include AM Stereo.

I recorded a clip of audio from 740 WJIB, received in stereo on the HDT-1. They are a small, independent station, the last using AM Stereo in the Boston area.

If anyone wants to hear it, please PM me, as I can't post a URL, being a new user.

n2ubp

12-26-06, 02:25 PM

Preset programming:

I think I am loosing my mind. Programming presets should not be this painful.
I am trying to program any of the banks, AM1, AM2, FM1, or FM2.
For the heck of it I reset the radio, supposedly setting all presets to EMPTY.
Does not work. Instead all presets 1 thru 4 and 0 reset to EMPTY on all banks but
5 thru 9 retain stations, in the case of AM1 preset 5 the freq is 520.
No problem I figure, I program 1 thru 4 and 0, then pree FREQ, enter the freq, then press PRESET, then hold in 5, get the FULL message, continue to hold it down for five more seconds until I get a message saying PRESET STORED.... but instead of 1300 the 520 freq is still in there. What am I doing wrong ? This should be a simple thing and not painful ?

Also antenna issue, tried putting the provided AM loop in series with my longwire per Bob.
Result was degraded signal. Went back to longwire only.

Steve

hbrown

12-26-06, 03:15 PM

Two (or more) timer on/off modes with settable frequencies.

For example timer 1 turns the unit on at 9:00 a.m. to 5xx kHz, and off at 10:00 a.m, while timer 2 turns the unit on at 10:01 a.m. to 10xx kHz and off at 11:00 a.m.

Thanks for considering it!

Bob Smith

12-26-06, 07:10 PM

DO NOT put the loop in series with the antenna, that won't work. Leave the loop hooked up to both terminals, take the external antenna and form a loop similar to the loop on the HDT1. Hook one side of the loop to the ground connection of the HDT1, and connect the other side of the loop to the external antenna. Place this loop in close proximity to the loop of the HDT1. This should work.

Bob Smith

n2ubp

12-26-06, 08:46 PM

Can anyone with an HDT-1 program all the presets ?
Do I have a clunker or have I lost some neurons over the holidays ?

Steve

fccgrant

12-26-06, 09:59 PM

Are you trying to program the same station in the presets? I noticed that you can't store the same station twice in the preset bank. You can duplicate in separate banks.

For example, if WNUA is in preset bank 1 location 4 and I hold 5 for two seconds to store it in location 5, then WNUA is deleted from preset bank 1 location 4.

I can store WNUA once in bank 1 and once in bank 2.

Additionally, I think HD Seek will automatically fill the preset banks.

doxytuner

12-26-06, 10:24 PM

STEVE,
What I do is tune to a station and then press any number for 5 seconds and it's stored. The HDT-1 is programmed to add a preset or replace a preset. It is not programmed to remove a preset without replacing it with another one. Only press the preset button to recall a preset not to store a preset.

Carnivore

12-27-06, 02:16 AM

Why isn't Sangean advertising anywhere that the HDT-1 has AM Stereo?
You mean the digital signal is in stereo, or are you saying it decodes C-Quam?

N1ZZN

12-27-06, 07:21 AM

You mean the digital signal is in stereo, or are you saying it decodes C-Quam?

It appears to be decoding C-Quam.

Mike Walker

12-27-06, 07:52 AM

It tunes C-Quam as well as AM HD. Hell, maybe C-Quam instructions are on the rom for all AM HD tuners. Too bad AM Stereo stations are going away! Just a couple of years ago I was surrounded by 'em!

n2ubp

12-27-06, 09:33 AM

doxytuner,

Thanks, Your directions allowed me to program all presets. Must be too much eggnog.

Steve

n2ubp

12-27-06, 09:39 AM

I popped open the case. Not much in there. Miniturization at its finest.
A power supply board in the back with AM trimmer pots, 2 small PC boards mounted towards the front, one as a daughter board to the other, and the control panel and display boards mounted on the front panel. The tuner module is marked "LG" with a partial circle around it (Lucky Goldstar ?), a Texas Instruments DSP chip, and a Samsung chip of unknown function.
I didn't touch anything. was just curious.

mattdp

12-27-06, 10:14 AM

I PMed N1ZZN for the links to the AM Stereo samples, and here they are:

Woah! Am Stereo on a 21st century tuner? Awesome! I'll be glad to post the link for you. Could you send it to me

Thanks,
Matt

Here's a clip recorded from WJIB.

http://home.comcast.net/~jjlehmann/WJIB2.mp3

Here's one I generated myself with my small "Alfredo Lite" AM Stereo transmitter. I think the channels are reveresed (possibly a problem with the transmitter).

http://home.comcast.net/~jjlehmann/HDT1-AMStereo.mp3

Mike Walker

12-27-06, 12:22 PM

It apparently receives C-Quam (analog) AM Stereo. The Accurian DOES!

mattdp

12-28-06, 12:09 PM

The Acccurian receives AM Stereo, too?

I have to say, those samples sound ok but they don't have as much high frequency content as some of the other AM Stereo samples I've heard?

Mike, is the sound of this tuner pretty typical of C-Quam AM Stereo, or is the HDT-1 below average when it comes to frequency response?

PrinterAgentMan

12-29-06, 03:02 PM

Does anyone know how good the RF front end is for FM? I'm particularly interested in whether or not there are overload problems, and how good the selectivity is.

I live a couple of miles away from three FM stations, and I'm pretty sure they're causing problems for the stations I want to hear. Sadly, an outdoor directional antenna (which I have) doesn't help with the overload problem, since the nearby stations are directly between me and the ones I want!

n2ubp

12-29-06, 03:18 PM

|Does anyone know how good the RF front end is for FM? I'm particularly interested in whether |or not there are overload problems, and how good the selectivity is.

Seems to be more selective than my Boston Acoustics Receptor table radios.
I like to listen to 88.3 about 50 miles away and have a local NPR station on 88.5.
Other radios I have pickup noise from 88.5 when tuned to 88.3. The HDT-1 is quiet.

fccgrant

12-29-06, 11:30 PM

For all who are considering this unit but would like to see it what it does you can view the video below.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag5nl_hkLBA

Unfortunately, the video doesn't do the audio justice. Most of the channels received are CD quality.

Mike Walker

12-30-06, 07:40 AM

You're kidding, right? That's a video of a woman sticking her tongue in a hole-in-the-wall!

dfreeze

12-30-06, 11:25 AM

You're kidding, right? That's a video of a woman sticking her tongue in a hole-in-the-wall!

A good video, none the less.

fccgrant

12-30-06, 12:43 PM

Man...I hate when that happens. OK...the link has been corrected. I made sure. :)

Mike Walker

12-30-06, 04:49 PM

That video is VERY cool. THANKS!

No AM HD stations available at your place?

doxytuner

01-01-07, 12:06 PM

The following will be helpful to all who listen to FM-AM. To get a printout of FM-AM stations and other data within your zip code go to www.radio-locator.com. Once there you can customize your list. This is by far the best and most comprehensive and is better than looking up information in an FM-AM book. They are now working on including the identification of HD stations. In the interim you can get a list of HD stations at www.ibiquity.com.

poggio

01-01-07, 11:49 PM

This question is probably best answered by Master Theseus. Is there any problem is fhte HDT-1 is left unplugged for extended periods of time (say, more than a week)? In particular, are the station presets or any other settings lost? I presume the clock setting will be lost or the clock will not advance or both, but this doesn't matter to me.

A related question is, how much power does it consume if plugged in but not turned on?

Thanks for any responses.

RCbridge

01-02-07, 10:30 AM

Just to add my 2 cents:

I decided to purchase the tuner after all My early observations:
Remote please add a real remote I would be willing to pay a few extra dollars for it!

After scanning (I live near the Philadelphia market) I found several HD stations many with multiple streams. No AM stations I will try a different antenna.
There were a few pleasant surprises on some of the 2nd channels.

I added the tuner to my surround system (Yamaha Intergrated amp) the sound of the HD stations were overall listenable I switched the amp from a surround mode to a 2 channel mode again listenable, however when I listened to the non HD stations in the surround mode they were flat but when I switched to the 2 channel mode they became listenable.

I am still evaluating the tuner but overall I am pleased with it except for the remote.

Master Theseus

01-02-07, 01:39 PM

I just came back today after being away for several weeks, hence my probably noticable absence from posting.

I am excited to see such an interest in HD Radio, and especially about ours!! There was a lot of are covered so I apologize if I don't get to everyone.

The HDT-1 does not have memory, so if left unplugged for long periods of time you will loose presets, as far as I know.

And actually, I think that was about it. . the other more experienced professionals have seemed to tear this baby apart and help you all out. As I am sales & marketing, I know little of the engineering involved in this tuner.

Thank you for the video, and thank you all for your support. We will take all the recommendations into account and make the next version of HDT-1 and the HDT-2 a better product. (And yes I said next version of HDT-1, we will offer a revised HDT-1 and an HDT-2 model, sometime this summer.)

doxytuner

01-02-07, 06:01 PM

Master Theseus
You did not comment as to whether the HDT-1 Revised or the HDT-2 will be considered the best one and what the difference would be.

fmdxer333

01-03-07, 10:05 AM

I received my Sangean HDT-1 from JR Music about 2 weeks ago. I immediately hooked it up, replacing my Technics STS6, a 1978, $ 400.00 tuner. In my estimation it was the most sensitive and selective tuner ever made. I also own the Onkyo 9090 II, which is regarded as the best. One of the first things that I did was hit the seek button, I was surprised when the Sangean stopped at 105.3, WDAS in Philadelphia. I live 60 miles away in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania. This station is extremely hard to get, mainly because of a close-by country station ( WIOV) at 105.1. I always got bleed-over from this station, located 15 miles from me. HD radio receives none of these bleed-over artifacts.

None of my other tuners would have stopped at this Philly station while on seek. I would always have to tweak it in manual to receive it. The Sangean picked it out, decoded the digital channels, displayed the information, and played the signal with no interuption. The Sangean HDT-1 covered the entire FM dial, bringing sounds and information previously unknown to me. I am so impressed with this Sangean tuner that I immediately called my friends over to hear and see it. This is the greatest thing to ever happen to FM radio. We now have joined the information age. The Sangean HDT-1 is truly a wonderful piece of engineering. The price is unbelievable. Thanks to the design of this tuner by Sangean, and a concept brought to us by ibiquity we now have a modern system to take us into the future.

The only suggestions I have for future models is the addition of a second antenna jack for FM. I have a rooftop antenna, but many people don't have this option. By allowing people to use different dipoles in different configuations, this might offer users better reception. There should also be documentation included for the novice instructing them on how to put together effective long wires for AM. Finally I would like to see Sangean, long known for their shortwave portables make a nice stereo portable with a good HD tuner for vacationing. The LCD display is a welcome additon to our listening pleasure.

Gerald Wilson
Leola, Pennsylvania

Bob Smith

01-03-07, 01:23 PM

wolfee

01-03-07, 07:23 PM

I think Sangean might be surprised to find out how many people listen to hifi gear thru small powered computer type speakers, bypassing a regular amp/integrated amp. This is how I do it and it would be VERY useful to have both a "sleep" timer setting and a switched 110v outlet on the back. This way I could turn the unit on, with the powered speakers plugged into the 110 outlet on the tuner and know it would turn everything off in an hour, or whatever I selected. Besides it's inconvenient having to turn on/off both the tuner and the speakers manually. Many of the better small powered speakers have regular RCA jacks for source input and require no adapters.

Master Theseus

01-03-07, 07:37 PM

I am also finding the adjacent channel selectivity of the HDT-1 is amazing. I have several 'High End' tuners, and the HDT-1 does as well as most of them. How it does this without comproming separation or distortion is a question worth asking.

MT, do you have a Hot Line Connection to the design engineers of the HDT-1?

I have a couple of stations that are completely missing on a couple of tuners, with the HDT-1 they are received noise free.

I'll try and measure the alternate and adjacent channel selectivity this weekend.

Bob Smith

Well, as a matter of fact we will have one of our SR. engineers at the CES. . I will try to get him to come to the gathering Tuesday night.

As for the better one of the 2, HDT-1 Revised, or the HDT-2, it is more of which will fit your needs best. I don't want to announce the changes yet, as that may effect current sales of the HDT-1, but I will say that some of the things you have been asking for will be incorporated into the HDT-1 Revised. The HDT-2 will be a premium offering more advanced features. We are still on the drawing board for that one, and is too close to call. The HDT-1 Revised will still have a price point close to the current model, where as the HDT-2 will likely be more towards the $299 area.

Master Theseus

01-03-07, 08:10 PM

doxytuner

01-04-07, 08:17 AM

I did not know that Sangean made the AM TWIN COIN ANTENNA. Originally I was going to install an outside AM Long Wire Antenna but it would have been formidable which explains why generally only shortwavers have them.

Bob Smith

01-04-07, 11:47 AM

I remember when I was a kid and listened to AM on home made crystal radios, the best antennat I could find was the finger stop on the telephone dial. In retrospect, that makes a lot of sense. The phone line is insulated from ground and runs for miles. I could get enough signal to actually run a loudspeaker to a listenable level.

No outdoor antenna I would erect would even come close.

Of course, those were the days WAY before ADSL and all the other RF signals that are impressed on every piece of copper the geeks can connect to, so I'm sure it wouldn't work today.

Bob Smith

Bob Smith

01-04-07, 11:49 AM

Well, as a matter of fact we will have one of our SR. engineers at the CES. . I will try to get him to come to the gathering Tuesday night.

As for the better one of the 2, HDT-1 Revised, or the HDT-2, it is more of which will fit your needs best. I don't want to announce the changes yet, as that may effect current sales of the HDT-1, but I will say that some of the things you have been asking for will be incorporated into the HDT-1 Revised. The HDT-2 will be a premium offering more advanced features. We are still on the drawing board for that one, and is too close to call. The HDT-1 Revised will still have a price point close to the current model, where as the HDT-2 will likely be more towards the $299 area.

What gathering??? Where is it, and who is invited? I'm coming in Tuesday afternoon.

Bob

scowl

01-04-07, 01:03 PM

I remember when I was a kid and listened to AM on home made crystal radios, the best antennat I could find was the finger stop on the telephone dial.
I never understood why the fingerstop was connected to the phone line in the first place considering how many times lightening hit telephone poles around our area and how often the phone line fuses blew (do they even put fuses on phone lines any more?).

Master Theseus

01-04-07, 01:09 PM

What gathering??? Where is it, and who is invited? I'm coming in Tuesday afternoon.

Bob

AVS Forum is having a gathering!!! You didn't see the post?

Bob Smith

01-04-07, 03:19 PM

I never understood why the fingerstop was connected to the phone line in the first place considering how many times lightening hit telephone poles around our area and how often the phone line fuses blew (do they even put fuses on phone lines any more?).

Well, it wasn't connected directly. All the stuff inside (the voice hybrid transformer, hybrid balance capacitor, ringer, etc.) were all big devices that were connected to the phone line. The proximity of these close to the metal base gave enough capacitive coupling to let the RF through.

The case was electrically insulated from the phone line to a potential that was lower than the 'carbon blocks' outside on the entrance box were so that they broke down to ground before there was enough potential to reach the customer.

Even with this protection, more than once I've felt quite a jolt while on a phone during a lightning storm.

Bob

Bob Smith

01-04-07, 03:20 PM

AVS Forum is having a gathering!!! You didn't see the post?

No, I didn't, where is the post?

Bob Smith

01-04-07, 03:27 PM

Got It:

Date:Tuesday January 9th
Time: 7:00PM till 10:00PM
Where: SAHARA Hotel - Golden Ballroom (We were at The Beach but they are now closing.)
What: Food, drinks, AVS Announcements, and some other entertainment!
Cost: FREE!

I always skip right to this topic without reading the front page!

Bob

cdswindell

01-04-07, 09:02 PM

Master Theseus

01-05-07, 02:51 AM

Master Theseus:

Do you know if the HDT-1 has discrete power codes (discrete on, discrete off) that can be programmed into a Pronto or Harmony remote? Any way you could check on that if not?

Thanks,

-- Dave

p.s. my HDT-1 should arrive tomorrow; recomendations for a good $50 - $100 indoor FM antenna?

No, the HDT-1 does not have discrete on/off. We are working with a model for a company called AudioVision (Never heard of them before), and they asked the same question, if they hadn't I would have never known what that even meant.

cdswindell

01-05-07, 09:50 AM

No, the HDT-1 does not have discrete on/off. We are working with a model for a company called AudioVision (Never heard of them before), and they asked the same question, if they hadn't I would have never known what that even meant.

Thanks for the quick reply, even if it wasn't with the answer I wanted ;) . Discrete codes make it easier to build macros on a remote control that put all equipment into the proper mode. For example, on my pronto, I have a screen with "tasks" like "Watch DVD", "Listen to Music", etc. Pressing one of these turns on all the required pieces of equipment and puts the amp and tv into the proper mode (AV input selected). Discrete codes allow you to turn on a piece of equipment regardless of its current state.

Would be a nice addition to your next gen product!!

Thanks,

-- Dave

salsbst

01-05-07, 12:19 PM

Master Theseus

01-05-07, 05:00 PM

Thanks for the quick reply, even if it wasn't with the answer I wanted ;) . Discrete codes make it easier to build macros on a remote control that put all equipment into the proper mode. For example, on my pronto, I have a screen with "tasks" like "Watch DVD", "Listen to Music", etc. Pressing one of these turns on all the required pieces of equipment and puts the amp and tv into the proper mode (AV input selected). Discrete codes allow you to turn on a piece of equipment regardless of its current state.

Would be a nice addition to your next gen product!!

Thanks,

-- Dave

Yes, we are looking into this request. It is likely one that is going to be included. I, when I worked for Dell Computers, became very familiar with the Logitech Harmony remotes and understand the benefit. We are also looking into making the remote RF instead of IR, and possibly even putting an IR on the back of the unit for custom solutions. We are, as mentioned before, working with a company called Audio Vision to see what changes are feasible and neccessary. We feel confident that with their expertise in custom solutions they will help guide Sangeans efforts in the right direction.

And I also wanted to mention that we are getting a good response from the engineering team about making not only a WIFI Component Tuner, but perhaps even designing and releasing a fully-functioning AM/FM Amplified Receiver!! Imagine the possibilities!!! Thanks to all your support on the HDT-1, Sangean has become more willing to be an innovator in radio, instead of a responding company.

doxytuner

01-05-07, 05:30 PM

For Macro to work, your remote has to learn the one code that remotely puts the HDT-1 on and off. The remote does not have to learn an on code and an off code since there is only one code in the HDT-1 remote and that one code puts it on and off. In any Macro sequence you would not need a discrete on and discrete off for the HDT-1 since it would not be on prior to initiating a Macro sequence but this would not necessarily be true for other components in the system.

Picspop

01-05-07, 07:18 PM

Speaking of the remote, I find that there's some command from the HDT-1 remote that puts my TV into a locked off mode; not standby, just off. In that mode it won't respond to commands from its own remote. I found that the only way to clear the condition is to unpug the TV and reconnect it. You can hear a locked up relay click when you unpug it. Still haven't figured out which button on the HDT-1 remote does this.

scowl

01-05-07, 07:55 PM

Even with this protection, more than once I've felt quite a jolt while on a phone during a lightning storm.
When I was a kid I heard a funny "ping... ping" noise behind my shortwave. It was coming from the lead-in from my longwire antenna. Apparently the air outside was full of charge it was discharging to ground wire through the 1 megohm resistor in the receiver. It was enough to make either the wire or something in the receiver vibrate whenever it happened. I didn't like bringing this electricity indoors so I went outside, made sure the antenna wasn't touching a powerline, and connected the antenna straight to the ground with a jumper cable I found in the garage. That solved it. There were no sparks and there was no lightening or thunder or anything that would indicate there was electricity in the air.

Picspop

01-06-07, 08:29 AM

Another little problem I have found with the HDT-1: The clock loses about a minute a week. Be careful not to depend on that clock, even though the display looms so large when the unit is in standby mode.

doxytuner

01-07-07, 12:01 PM

For anyone who wants an on-off code for the HDT-1 for another remote it is 0476. Alternatively you can have your other remote learn all the functions of the tiny HDT-1 remote if your other remote has the learning feature. For those of you who need the code for every function on the HDT-1 remote you will need a remote with the learning feature and a " find your code feature". The one I have is the ONE FOR ALL HOME PRODUCER 8.
Richard

randy van

01-08-07, 06:41 AM

i had this tuner for about 3wks. now and started noticeing the signal fading. the first week or two it was fine. im getting a ssi17 most of the time, got a 10ele. winguard,and checked all my coax con. almost seems to happen after its on for a while. if i hookup back to the receiver,my signals there i also checked some other stations and the same thing happens.is the hdt-1 going bad or something else in HDworld going on? anybody?

hbrown

01-08-07, 09:44 AM

Well, it does have "Sangean" stamped in the plastic case. I figured that was a good clue.

Did you know doxytuner, that Sangean makes the C.Crane Twin Coil Ferrite? Bet you didn't.

doxytuner

01-08-07, 08:26 PM

[QUOTE=randy van]i had this tuner for about 3wks. now and started noticeing the signal fading. the first week or two it was fine. im getting a ssi17 most of the time, got a 10ele. winguard,and checked all my coax con. almost seems to happen after its on for a while. if i hookup back to the receiver,my signals there i also checked some other stations and the same thing happens.is the hdt-1 going bad or something else in HDworld going on? anybody?[

I have the same 127" Winegard FM antenna and found that the analog does not fade in and out but the HD is a problem. I attribute it to the HD technology and the broadcasters. It could be the HDT-1 Tuner but I have nothing to compare.

lcartelli@hotmai

01-08-07, 09:06 PM

My reception on AM seems to have a problem locking in the HD signal. using a Terk advantage antenna> Signal strength goes from 0-2 to 8 and then losing the lock and back to 1. How can I lock on the hd signal.

doxytuner

01-08-07, 09:19 PM

In addition to the above FM Winegard antenna I also have the Terk AM Advantage Antenna and have your problem and have been unable to lock into any AM HD station. I believe it has to do with the broadcasters and the HD technology. I might add that the analog AM is satifactory.

scowl

01-08-07, 11:00 PM

doxytuner

01-09-07, 10:06 AM

The antennas are not causing any problems.

n2ubp

01-09-07, 11:38 AM

Signal reception can be affected not only by receiver and antenna but by weather, solar effects and geomagnetic storms, time of day, even leaves on trees. Be careful your frustrations are not the results of things totally out of our control.

Steve

salsbst

01-09-07, 11:44 AM

Yes, we are looking into this request. It is likely one that is going to be included. I, when I worked for Dell Computers, became very familiar with the Logitech Harmony remotes and understand the benefit. We are also looking into making the remote RF instead of IR, and possibly even putting an IR on the back of the unit for custom solutions. We are, as mentioned before, working with a company called Audio Vision to see what changes are feasible and neccessary. We feel confident that with their expertise in custom solutions they will help guide Sangeans efforts in the right direction.
Please don't take away IR control. Those of us who have devices that learn and transmit IR to control things like the radio would then be unable to do so. I worry that this Audio Vision company may be leading you astray if they are suggesting getting rid of IR control!

EDIT: Doh! Somehow I missed the sentence about putting IR on the back! Nevermind....

scowl

01-09-07, 01:11 PM

The antennas are not causing any problems.
I mean how are "the broadcasters and the HD technology" causing your problems?

doxytuner

01-09-07, 09:35 PM

I've had no problems and I still have no problems over many years receiving analog FM day or night with my outdoor 127" FM rotor antenna on two receivers and a high-end analog tuner. I now have a problem with the FM HD stations fading in and out. Thru a process of elimination, at least for my setup, it's the new HD technology or/& the quality of the HD broadcast or/& the HDT-1 tuner. Without measuring instruments no will know what is causing the problem. My FM antenna signal was measured with a signal strength meter and it was very strong. I have no multipath antenna problem since I live in the country. One of HD problems could me that the HD signal is substantilly affected by natural occurences between
the transmitter and the receiving antenna and that analog signals are less affected.
Richard

Bob Smith

01-10-07, 08:03 PM

I got sidetracked at the last minute and couldn't make it to the CES. Since I didn't make it, I decided to take some time and do more measurements to the Sangean HDT1.

I noticed my Sangean HDT-1 did a better job of picking out a station (KCSM) on a lower adjacent channel to the local non-profit station here in town (KSVY) than any other tuner I have. You have to listen fast, because the HD switches in in a few seconds and receives the IBOC channel.

I finally got my twin HP 8640Bs working at the same time, and decided to do some RF measurements on a few of my tuners. Boy, What a shock.

Here are the data:

.....................Adjacent Channel Selectivity...........Alternate

Marantz 10B.............15 dB..................................>80 dB

Mac MR78 (Normal)....... 9 dB..................................>80 dB
(Narrow)........19 dB.................................>80 dB
(Super Narrow)..53 dB.................................>80 dB

Sangean HDT-1............67 dB..................................79 dB

Yes, That's right, the Sangean HDT-1 has better adjacent selectivity than the MR-78!!!! I still can't believe it. I tested according to ANSI/IEEE STD 185 1975, which states it should be measured at 45 dBf with a measured SNR of 30 dB through a 1 KHz bandpass filter. I checked calibration both before and after testing. As another cross check, the adjacent markings for the MR-78 are Normal-7dB, Narrow-22 dB, and Super Narrow-55 dB, within a couple of dB of what I measured.

This means the Sangean is better at receiving a signal with strong adjacent interference than any other tuner I have, including the MR-78, which Richard Modafarri designed specifically for adjacent channel rejection.

The alternate channel selectivity isn't as good as other tuners, however, either the 10B or the MR-78.

It looks like they are placing zeros (band reject) filters on both sides of the center frequency to reject IBOC.

Too bad you can't force the tuner to receive the analog FM channel, it would be a world beater for adjacent channel rejection.

Bob Smith

n2ubp

01-11-07, 08:41 AM

Anyone notice that if you set the HDT-1 to an analog station and set another non HD radio to the same station the HDT-1 output is delayed by about a 1/4 second ? Must be some internal digital signal processing happening even when listening to analog stations.

bradpeters

01-11-07, 09:38 AM

Yes, I've noticed a slight delay in analogue reception on the Sangean and also on the Boston Acoustics and Accurian radios. I think you're correct that there is an inherent digital delay in the circuitry of HD radios, which can be heard regardless whether you're listening to an analogue or a digital signal.

You can create a poor man's "surround sound" by operating a digital and analogue radio in the same room. The effect is "interesting" for music, but it gets really weird when the announcer comes on! :)

Bob Smith

01-11-07, 10:03 AM

What this says is that the Sangean must process FM in DSP. That may be why it has such amazing adjacent channel rejection.

Bob Smith

scowl

01-11-07, 02:08 PM

Bob Smith

01-11-07, 04:03 PM

All the TV cards I've seen recently sample the entire NTSC bandwidth and extract and decode the FM audio digitally. These cards aren't expensive and it has to be even cheaper to sample and digitally process an FM channel.

It's all software now. Which to some means it's only a matter of time before it fails. :)

Does this mean they down-convert the whole RF spectrum to baseband for processing? That's about the only way they could get the skirt selectivity I measured. This says that all HD (I still hate that acronym) radios are more sophisticated than the most expensive FM only tuner.

I've always wanted to see an FM tuner that did all processing of the IF in the digital domain. This is the only way you can get the group delay and amplitude response of a close to perfect filter.

In any event, this little Sangean tuner does the best job of separating adjacent channels I've ever seen in an FM tuner. If only I could defeat the HD decoding when listening to FM, it could become my favorite tuner!

LinuxSheeple-E

01-11-07, 08:03 PM

Does this mean they down-convert the whole RF spectrum to baseband for processing? That's about the only way they could get the skirt selectivity I measured. This says that all HD (I still hate that acronym) radios are more sophisticated than the most expensive FM only tuner.

I've always wanted to see an FM tuner that did all processing of the IF in the digital domain. This is the only way you can get the group delay and amplitude response of a close to perfect filter.

In any event, this little Sangean tuner does the best job of separating adjacent channels I've ever seen in an FM tuner. If only I could defeat the HD decoding when listening to FM, it could become my favorite tuner!

Hello,

Real datasheets are difficult to come by but it appears that iBiquity publishes reference designs that the various radio makers use when making a HD Radio. I was only able to see some product briefs. One reference design uses a TI TMS320DRI350 to do both the HD and analog baseband processing. It is a DSP chip programmed for this purpose.
http://focus.ti.com/lit/ml/sprt323/sprt323.pdf

So the likely signal chain is a AM/FM tuner module that has a 10.7 MHz output. The 10.7 MHz IF is converted to baseband by a Digital Down Converter (DDC) and fed to the TI DSP. The TI DSP decodes the signal and sends data to the DACs. The DACs output analog audio.

73 Eric

Bob Smith

01-11-07, 08:11 PM

OK, that makes sense. Standard front ends are easy to come by that convert to 10.7 MHz, and that would simplify things. I believe phase noise is a big deal for COFDM, so they probably have to beef up the synthesizer a little.

But, that means all filtering is done in the digital domain, probably at base band using I and Q components. That is really cool!

I will try and measure some more 'analog' parameters (capture ratio, for instance) to see how well they implemented the FM processing digitally.

Thanks for the link!

Bob

scowl

01-11-07, 08:34 PM

Does this mean they down-convert the whole RF spectrum to baseband for processing?
Duuuh, what does that mean? :confused:

Now that I'm looking at a datasheet, it's not quite as cool as I thought. It samples the video signal a line at a time and dumps the data it has collected into a buffer for processing once it hits a horizontal sync. What it does with that data is all firmware in the chip at that point but obviously it uses some hardware to recognize sync signals instead of recognizing them in software. There may be chips that do it all in software. It has a separate chroma sampling circuit but is only turned on in S-video mode where the chroma is arriving on a separate wire. With regular composite video, it looks like the chroma signal is being extracted by software. How it does this (NTSC, PAL, SECAM) is all in the firmware. It can even recognize the formats.

The audio receiver of this chip does appear to be a separate circuit receiving the FM aignal and sampling and decoding it in real time. It claims to capture the signal through a "Sound Intermediate Frequency" (which looks like the base frequency) then the signal goes through a dedicated 16 bit A/D converter and then is decoded in firmware. Like the video, the firmware can detect and decode several different kinds of TV audio including NICAM and A2/Dual FM which I guess are foreign standards. It's easy to program it to pick up FM stations.

Oh this A/D converter is actually shared with the S-video chroma sampling circuit and the line input sampling circuit. If you're capturing S-video, you'll need to capture the audio with something else because it'll be busy sampling the color. When capturing composite through the RCA plug, you can program that A/D converter to sample stereo line audio. It looks like they have it alternating between left and right audio very quickly so they wouldn't have include one for each channel.

So it does use separate A/D converters for audio and video (I guess because it stops sampling during sync signals) but it does extract the chroma signal through software which is pretty neat.

n2ubp

01-11-07, 09:55 PM

I saw a TI DSP chip in the HDT-1 when I opened the case. A daughter card includes a tuner marked "LG". I don't remember the DSP chip number.

About 5 years back Blauplunkt was making analog radios that claimed to digitize the signal to clean up typical analog reception problems, so this part of the equation is not new. I think the first model was an "Alaska" or something to do with Alaska.

Bob Smith

01-12-07, 09:17 AM

Yup, that was it, Blauplunkt. David Rich did a review in "The Audio Critic" on this one. I'll try to dig it up and see what he said on it. This was back when people used to measure FM performance.

Bob Smith

vidRX

01-12-07, 12:11 PM

I have just returned my HDT-1. It is a fine receiver but..

What I liked: great reception, sounds excellent on HD broadcasts, HD seek is a great feature, fairly attractive front panel.

What I did not like: The LCD display needs a backlight control! Especially when off, the display on this tuner still lights up my room and glares from my AV equipment that lives under my RPTV -with a clock that has no function in the radio other than to run 10plus seconds per day slow and always shows the wrong time!
The remote could be a little more substantial. Cannot inhibit HD reception (select normal FM) for stations with HD signal issues-(fading in and out of HD to normal b'cast is really annoying)

Would like to see: a dedicated 'preset' tune up-down or preset scan buttons where you could just tune to or scan through your preset stations, a controllable backlight, accurate clock or no clock at all, would prefer more presets or have 3FM bands and only 1AM band. Most markets and most listeners probably have far more FM stations on their list than AM, would also like a 'preset storable' HD lockout function for any stations with HD fade issues.

I am really looking forward to the next improved versions of this product. I just could not get past a 200 dollar clock that cannot keep time sitting next to 3 other devices in my rack that do ...its a small thing but for me the display on this unit was its demise.

doxytuner

01-12-07, 12:39 PM

For a first generation tuner, I consider the HDT-1 good at a net price of 175. I'm going to upgrade this year to one of the two new 2nd generation Sangean tuners or to the Cambridge Soundworks tuner but not the Rotel tuner since it's overpriced(900). There may be other reasonably priced tuners that will arrive but we'll have to wait and see. If anyone out there knows of any HD tuners that I've missed that have a resonable price, please let me know.
Richard

n2ubp

01-12-07, 04:19 PM

doxytuner

01-12-07, 06:10 PM

Even with some short comings the HDT-1 meets and exceeds my price - performance expectations. With my daughter in college it will be a LONG time before I ever consider a more expensive replacement tuner.

You may want to do what I'm going to do-sell the HDT-1 for 100 which is 50% of retail and thus I'll only be out 75 since early buyers such as us are getting a 25 rebate.
Richard

n2ubp

01-12-07, 09:21 PM

>75 since early buyers such as us are getting a 25 rebate.

That is only true if you qualify for the rebate. The rebate is from ibiquity, not Sangean. It is one to an address / family, and I already applied for it for the JVC IBOC unit that is installed in my T-Bird. I will hang onto the HDT-1 for awhile. The only issues I have with it are related to specific station performance rather than the radio itself. If I tune to WCBS 880 AM at power on sometimes the radio starts stuttering right after changing from analog to HD mode and requires a power on reset. I have fading at times in HD mode with WBGO 88.3 FM in Patterson NJ however I can compensate for this with the antenna rotor. I don't expect magic being 60 miles northwest of the antenna towers. WCBS 880 AM seems to be tweaking their signal the last few weeks. Even though Tom Ray at WOR 710 AM tells me he has been working with IBOC for 4 years this is new stuff to the others and it will take a while to settle down.

doxytuner

01-13-07, 06:38 AM

TO N2UBP
You are premature in dismissing your right to a 25 reimbursement on the basis that you submitted one on the JVC. The contract reads. "Limit one offer per household or address". That means one offer per eligible product not one offer per all eligible products. Under the law all ambiquities are construed against the maker of a contract.
Richard

n2ubp

01-13-07, 09:24 PM

Can't hurt to try... I'll throw one in the mail on Tuesday. Thanks

doxytuner

01-14-07, 01:04 AM

Can't hurt to try... I'll throw one in the mail on Tuesday. Thanks
Since the processing of rebates is a low-level function of business with the emphasis on 'no", you cannot expect them to have a desire to comprehend the law of contracts(My post of yesterday elucidates the law.). For practical reasons it is to your interest to send the second rebate in another name and address(friend or relative). In this way you will be helping the rebate center process your rebate and doing what they are legally required to do under the law of contracts. There is no point in going through Small Claims Court to prove a point and waste everyones' time when there is a practical way to resolve the situation. A relative of mine did file a Small Claims Action against a corporation on a rebate and they settled immediately since they were required to retain an attorney to represent the corporation and they just wanted out. Also they had another problem since under Connecticut law if they move it out of Small Claims Court to a higher court and lose they would have to pay not only their own attorney but the other attorney which would have been very expensive for them.
Richard

netjazz

01-14-07, 10:24 PM

My old Luxman Tuner may be headed for storage based on the comments I have read on this forum. Most seem happy with this tuner (at least at the under $200 price level) that appears to be breaking new ground as we enter the early stages of HD component audio. Great reviews for a tuner at this price level.
I live in Connecticut about 50 miles from midtown New York City. I guess I will try the HDT-1 with the antenna that they supply with the unit, and see how the reception is. I am really hopeful that I can pull in my favorite Jazz station that broadcasts from Newark,NJ, WBGO, broadcasting now in HD, based on the sensitivity reports of this tuner. If not, I guess I may have to go for a roof antenna. They say they have the unit in stock at J&R, so I should receive by mid-week.
They claim HD Radio has almost CD like sound on FM. I have Serius Radio in my car, and that sounds just OK on the premium sound system, but it's certainly not CD quality. I hope this is at least better than that. Will be listening to it on an old, sweet sounding McIntosh Amp and JSL speakers linked with Audioquest cables, that still sounds great. Will link the HDT-1 to my amp with audioquest cables as well.
About 5 years ago, I was ready to go out and get a new sound system until I was given a set of the Audioquest cables for a try out by my local stereo shop. I never realized high end cables ( I had Monster cables before) could make such a profound difference in the clarity of the sound. I now link all my components and speakers to my amp with their cables. Most people refuse to believe cables can make that great a difference, but they do.
Back to the subject,I will relate my experience with the Sangean HDT-1 after receiving it.
Anyone else in Ct. about 50 miles out from midtown NYC that can get WBGO clearly?

doxytuner

01-15-07, 08:09 AM

I live in Ct about 60 miles from WBGO and I can get it clearly with my rotary antenna in analog but not HD. I'm too far away for HD.
To be sure it's not psychological use cables of the same length and have a friend change one channel at a time and see if you can always tell the difference.
Richard

netjazz

01-15-07, 11:20 AM

First became a believer in Audioquest cables with a simple hook-up replacing the wire and jacks that came with my Denon CD player with the approx 18" Audioquest cables than cost about $120 at the time, and the difference was remarkable. From there the dealer loaned me a pair of 5' speaker cables that cost about $600 at the time and once again the clarity improved even more, with the highs clearer than ever, and the bass as pure as could be with no muddyness what-so-ever. True the monster cables I replaced were much lower priced than the Audioquest, but the difference was well worth the money. I was told that to improve on my current equipment, which is about 20 years old, would be difficult without spending a lot more money by this dealer, so he said to try the cable approach and I would be suprised. Well he was right, even though he lost a potential sale for all the new equipment I was prepared to buy from him at that time. He certainly made a believer of me.

Bob Smith

01-15-07, 12:57 PM

sctroy

01-15-07, 03:24 PM

My HDT-1 arrived today. I hooked it up using the FM T-antenna that came in the box.

I am amazed. The bad hiss on all my FM stations is completely gone! A nice, clear signal (five or six bars on most stations!), and I get the secondary digital channels (which was the real reason to get this thing, as the local PBS station is classical-day and jazz-evening on the analog station and the reverse on the secondary digital, so I now get round-the-clock classical).

I don't have a high-end FM receiver (just a mediocre SONY), so the improvement is stunning. For those of you with high-end gear, you may not notice as much of a difference. But for those of you who, like me, have run-of-the-mill equipment, this is the best $200 you will ever spend.

Steve Troy

Mike Walker

01-15-07, 04:43 PM

doxytuner

01-15-07, 07:09 PM

Bob Smith

01-15-07, 07:39 PM

Although my comments to NETJAZZ were temperate with regard to cables, I agree with Mike Walker 100%. For speaker wire all you need is inexpensive thick copper wire-I use 12 gauge. For interconnects all you need is inexpensive good cables with gold connectors. The ones that come with the components are cheap throw-aways.
Richard

I also agree, please keep subjects like magic wire on the 'tweaks' page. I don't like the fact that the unsuspecting public may waste money because they saw it in this forum.

Bob Smith

netjazz

01-15-07, 08:27 PM

Try your cable comparison double-blind (where you have no idea WHAT you are comparing, whether it's cables or mandolins). Using an a/b/x comparator, where x is the same as either a or b, choose a statistically significant number of times which x really is. If you can't do that, it makes no difference whether you "heard an enormous difference", because the test proved (as it almost invariably does) that you heard NO difference. Science trumps voo-doo every time! PLEASE arrange to do this test before spending hundreds, or thousands of dollars on cables!!!! Take the money and buy more, or better COMPONENTS, a better antenna for your tuner, or better yet...LOTS of music! THAT will give you REAL entertainment!

Your skepticism is not unusual, I guess it is almost expected. Most engineers or guys that are really into numbers or statistics that I mention this to react as you . I was using a set of Monster cables that ran about $100 at the time I purchased them. Replacing them with the AudioQuest "Midnight" speaker cables changed the quality of sound to such a degree that I found it hard to believe as well. I was really ready to spend a few grand for a new amp and speakers, thinking mine were outdated. I spoke to a number of people that are deep into audio and they agreed, that to really improve the sound quality to the degree that I hoped to, would amount to a very large expenditure. The McIntosh MA 6200 intergrated amplifier and the JSE Infinite Slope (No longer produced) speaker system that I have had for twenty years and cost about $4,000 at that time are still considered top notch.
Because of the skepticism, I kept my old cables handy for quite a while, to demonstrate at that time, the difference in sound the new cables produced. Every one, almost all as skepticle as you, ( approx. 10 people) after listening to them alternatly in a blind test that I insisted upon, agreed to various degrees that the sound was far better with the AudioQuest. I therefore have no desire to go through the comparative testing again. I was more than convinced, by my own ears as well as many others, of the greaty improved quality of sound they helped produce. Maybe you should go out and demo a set yourself. You might be suprised.

ChrisW6ATV

01-15-07, 09:56 PM

I would consider a test of fancy audio cables under two conditions:

-The test is double-blind.

-If I do not consistently pick the fancy audio cables for "better sound" in the test, then AudioQuest (or Monster, or whomever else) agrees to pay me US$90/hour for the time I wasted on the tests, including setup and travel time.

Somehow, I do not think any of these companies will be offering tests to me any time soon.

doxytuner

01-16-07, 10:29 AM

AN ALTERNATIVE CONSIDERATION
If you have an accessory which is not based on sound physical principles and has no scientific basis and is worthless but incrementally increases a person's enjoyment of his music and equipment, it should be included in his system even if it degrades the sound and he is the only one that can hear an improvement. Remember it's what the owner of the system enjoys, not what we enjoy.
Richard

mattdp

01-16-07, 10:58 AM

NetJazz, could we PLEASE keep cable debates out of the HD Radio section?

doxytuner,
Somebody should write a book on Feing Sui for audio systems! I'd buy a copy :D :D :D

netjazz

01-16-07, 11:11 AM

Never thought my comment , Re: Cables, included in my original post on the HDT-1 would cause this much controversy. It is not relevant to the HDT-1, which is the theme of this particular forum, and therefore agreed it should be dropped, and will be.
My future post will concern only the Sangean HDT-1 and HD Radio. This is to good a forum to tick-off.
Sorry,
Netjazz

Bob Smith

01-16-07, 02:13 PM

Thank you. These debates go adnauseam in other groups (which I avoid), so that's a better place for them.

Bob Smith

Mike Walker

01-16-07, 04:46 PM

Netjazz, with all due respect, my "skepticism" is based upon more than just "numbers and figures". It's based upon nearly 40 years of LISTENING...in studios, in radio stations, in my listening room, and my bed late at night with da' cans on.

If my life depended upon giving the right answer, with gun to my temple, I were asked to state the absolute truth...."Does exotic cable offer any AUDIBLE advantage under scientifically controlled conditions?" I would loudly and firmly state, without hesitation...NO! And ya' know what? I'm pretty darn certain I'd be around to see tomorrow ;)

If YOU enjoy the cable, and if you are convinced that it does something for you...then whatever you do, DO NOT test your belief double-blind. You'll end up proving that the emperor is "NEKKID" (as we say in the south!)

Now some exotic cable DOES sound different on occasion. When this is the case, it is almost invariably the result of the maker engineering-in some weird electrical charicteristic which CAN BE MEASURED.

cbevil

01-16-07, 09:26 PM

Hi all, I've been mostly lurking in the AVS forums; happy to be here. I've read this thread in its entirety and am very interested in the Sangean tuner. I have been waiting for Rotel to come out with the RT-1084 since early last year. Then it came out and was... $900! $400 more than the RT-1080, just to get HD? No way. I have no interest in Sirius, so it's just too expensive.

Did some more research, found the HDT-1. I was skeptical of a $200 tuner performing well. But after reading this thread, it sounds like quite the tuner. I think I'm actually going to wait for the HDT-2, hoping that some of the improvements people have mentioned here become reality (a screen that dims, a more accurate clock, the ability to cycle through presets, etc...). And I read a review on Amazon that mentioned that the digital-to-analog conversion was going to be improved in the new model. I have no idea if that's true and take it with a grain of salt, but it sounds good to me if it is. :) In addition, I am impressed by Master Theseus coming to this forum and answering many questions about the product. I've never owned anything made by Sangean, but I now have a favorable view of the company.

Anyway, I have seen a discussion of antennae here, and was hoping I could get a few questions answered about them. I don't know too much about antenna technology, so please keep that in mind.

First off, if I live in a city (Seattle), fairly close to transmission towers, will having an outdoor FM antenna significantly improve the quality of my FM (& HD) audio? Or will it be no better than an indoor antenna, given my proximity to the source?

Second, will a standard FM antenna work for HD, or do you need some sort of HD capable antenna? A number of people have recommended the Winegard HD6065P, which specifically says it is an HD antenna. But I live in the city proper, and the PR-6010 looks like it might be a good alternative for me (although it does not specifically say HD). Easier to install, no need to rotate, etc. If an outdoor antenna is recommended, would the PR-6010 be a good option?

Thanks!

Carl

doxytuner

01-16-07, 10:56 PM

An outdoor antenna is always best. All FM antennas can receive HD and FM. Since you are near the transmitting antennas, Weingard's outdoor PR-6010 for $32 is an excellent all-direction choice(maximum width 67"). You can buy it at Lashen Electronics and get it by UPS. When installing 75 ohm cable, RG6 is a good choice. Be sure you install the gold F-connectors properly-if not you will lose signal. You can get the cable and connectors from Radio Shack.
Richard

Welly Wu

01-17-07, 01:54 AM

I am intrigued by this Sangean HDT-1 HD Radio. I had already written off HD Radio technology as being late to the entertainment industry, but I am reconsidering.

Any idea if the HD-2 will be coming out this year? I would prefer to wait until the second generation model comes out before getting into the technology. Thank you for this thread. I will keep up with the developments.

cbevil

01-17-07, 10:58 PM

An outdoor antenna is always best. All FM antennas can receive HD and FM. Weingard's outdoor PR-6010 for $32 is an excellent all-direction FM antenna since you are near the transmitting antennas( maximum width 67"). You can buy it at Lashen Electronics and get it by UPS. When installing 75 ohm RG 6 cable is a good choice. Be sure you install the gold F-connectors properly-if not you will lose signal. You can get the cable and connectors from Radio Shack.
Richard

Great, thanks!

Master Theseus

01-18-07, 07:27 PM

Well, I must say I am pleasantly surprised at the support I am getting for being here on behalf of my company. I came here to help you and find you are helping me more than I am you.

In regards to the HDT-1 and future renditions of it. . . There is one key factor that will determine the speed of new models, sales!! If sales for the HDT-1 1st gen drops we will see a slow down in the speed of new development.

If we keep up with current sales (moving somewhere near 200 a week) we should see something by end of summer. It will be more costly at a whopping target retail of $225.

But what shal ye faithful persons get for the additional $25? I can't answer fully right now, but I know with certainty that we will add SPDIF and coaxal digital outputs.

All other changes are really software related and will be considered, but I have not gotten a response from the factory on exactly what changes they are willing to make. I have positioned them with these vital changes. . . LCD brightness controll, the ability to turn off HD Radio function to use analog only, and discrete on/off commands, and that you do not have to press the preset button to access the memory, and a memory scan function.

I have reccomended a new remote, but am certain that is a no-go.

There are no other changes I am aware of. These seemed to be the ones that cover most all of the requests. For the HDT-2, we have no release date for that, and are looking again to add more functions and features for a target price of $299. But will likely be USB firmware upgradeable, rear-port IR sensor, recording function, and the other obvious requests for the HDT-1 2nd Gen.

I would ask all of you, provided it is affordable to continue to support sales of the HDT-1 so that we can make the HDT-1 2nd gen a fact instead of a possibility.

And thank you all for your continued support.

Picspop

01-18-07, 11:35 PM

cbevil

01-19-07, 12:03 AM

All other changes are really software related and will be considered, but I have not gotten a response from the factory on exactly what changes they are willing to make. I have positioned them with these vital changes. . . LCD brightness controll, the ability to turn off HD Radio function to use analog only, and discrete on/off commands, and that you do not have to press the preset button to access the memory, and a memory scan function.

I have reccomended a new remote, but am certain that is a no-go.

There are no other changes I am aware of. These seemed to be the ones that cover most all of the requests. For the HDT-2, we have no release date for that, and are looking again to add more functions and features for a target price of $299. But will likely be USB firmware upgradeable, rear-port IR sensor, recording function, and the other obvious requests for the HDT-1 2nd Gen.

I would ask all of you, provided it is affordable to continue to support sales of the HDT-1 so that we can make the HDT-1 2nd gen a fact instead of a possibility.

Hm, good points. I think you are right, I should probably just buy an HDT-1 and enjoy it now, rather than wait for something that may never come, or may come later than I'd like. If/when the HDT-2 comes out I can evaluate whether I want to sell my HDT-1 to get the new model. OK I'm sold (I guess it doesn't take much to convince me to buy new electronics equipment; just gotta clear it with the wife ;) ).

netjazz

01-19-07, 02:30 PM

So far so good.It pulls in analog better than my old Luxman tuner. Getting drift on the station I bought it to listen to, WBGO 88.3, NPR Jazz out of Newark, but I could not even pick it up at all on the Luxman. The station does broadcast in HD as well. I purchased the Winegard PR-6010 antenna based on suggestions in this forum, and should receive Monday . Plan on putting it in my garage which has a 1 1/2 story high ceiling. I know I will lose some signal (abt 50 miles from station) by not putting it on roof, but no way I'm climbing up there. Got a price for a roof antenna with installation of $289. That's more than the tuner cost, so in the garage it goes, directly on the other side of the wall the tuner is on. I hope to get at least a clear analog signal to listen to, good HD would be even better.
What we JAZZ fans won't do to listen to our music. Unfortunately all the real good classic jazz stations are gone except for WBGO. 89.9, that broadcast jazz and classical music from Columbia University in New York, is another choice but it is weaker than WBGO and not in HD.
Off Topic, Dianna Krall was on WBGO last night on Marion McPartland's Piano Jazz program and they were a pure delight. Just got to get a clear signal now. Great music on this station.

Master Theseus

01-19-07, 04:54 PM

Master Theseus, a question about the audio spectrum display mode: There are ten bands on the histogram; are those octave bands? What are the center frequencies of the bands? How is the y-axis scaled? I.e., if logarithmic, how many dB per segment?

Huh? I have no idea what you just asked and am not even slightly able to answer the question. I am a sales person after all. But I will send the question to factory and see if I can get a response.

cbevil

01-19-07, 10:50 PM

Just ordered my HDT-1 today :D Unfortunately, the $25 rebate is gone. But newegg has a "combo" buy (at least, they do as of this posting) that gives you a choice of free audio cables or a surge protector for $5 extra. I opted for for the 2-meter cables (they are from "Best Deal Cables", which I've never heard of).

The tuner should be here at the end of next week, looking forward to it!

Picspop

01-20-07, 10:16 AM

[/QUOTE]Originally Posted by Picspop
Master Theseus, a question about the audio spectrum display mode: There are ten bands on the histogram; are those octave bands? What are the center frequencies of the bands? How is the y-axis scaled? I.e., if logarithmic, how many dB per segment?

Huh? I have no idea what you just asked and am not even slightly able to answer the question. I am a sales person after all. But I will send the question to factory and see if I can get a response.

Sorry for being obtuse. I'm referring to the display depicted in figure E on p. 14 of the user manual. That's what you get when you click the INFO button six times. The dancing bars indicate the sound level in each of ten frequency bands, I suppose, but the axes on the graph are not labelled. It would be interesting to know whether there is program content in an HD signal beyond the range (frequency or dynamic) of that same music played by that same station on the analog broadcast.

Listening to a violin concerto recently, I noted that the far right bar did not move when the violin played solo, even in the upper register. But when the full orchestra entered there was a jump in the far righthand bar. I was not aware of activity in the piccolo section, but at my age that might be my ears and not the technology. The display might also be used to indicate whether a station is feeding a less compressed audio signal to its HD channel, which would be a welcome reversal of conventional broadcast practice.

cdswindell

01-21-07, 01:38 AM

If we keep up with current sales (moving somewhere near 200 a week) we should see something by end of summer. It will be more costly at a whopping target retail of $225.

But what shall ye faithful persons get for the additional $25? I can't answer fully right now, but I know with certainty that we will add SPDIF and coaxal digital outputs.

All other changes are really software related and will be considered, but I have not gotten a response from the factory on exactly what changes they are willing to make. I have positioned them with these vital changes. . . LCD brightness controll, the ability to turn off HD Radio function to use analog only, and discrete on/off commands, and that you do not have to press the preset button to access the memory, and a memory scan function. .

Not bad for an extra $25. Now, what about the upgrade program that lets us early adopters trade in our old, tired units for a brand spank'n new unit? ;) (no harm in asking, right?)

Seriously, I am very impressed with the HDT-1. Today I picked up an $8 pair of rabbit hears from a Lowes Home Improvement store and tripled the number of HD stations! I live about 25 miles west of Boston, MA but can now pull in WGBH, WBOS, and several others in HD, even though the antenna is in the southwest corner of my house. Very impressive!

-- Dave

machpost

01-24-07, 09:03 AM

The HDT-1 sounds like a great product. I own several Sangean products and can attest to their excellent quality and engineering. My ATS-909 is a workhorse that gets daily use. Now if only Sangean would put HD-Radio into one of their portables! That is what I'm really waiting for.

TheOx

01-24-07, 11:54 PM

I've had my HDT-1 for a little over a day now, and it is terrific. I receive 14 stations with the supplied FM dipole antenna, 13 of which have a multicast feed (I haven't heard a commercial on one of these extra stations yet). I live about 15 miles from Philly. One, 104.5 has a great nostaligia multicast feed. Plus, I can now listen to classical music 24 hours a day on 90.1. I don't find the display too bright (in home office, not bedroom), and I like the credit card sized remote on my desk. Though the feed is crystal clear, I'm not sure the digital quality quite matches analog - not the fault of the tuner but, perhaps, the nature of the digital feed (the same discussion when LP records were replaced by CD's). The bottom line is that this is a great product at a great price - something I've been waiting to buy for more than a year. There's no need to wait anymore.

TheOx

kb7oeb

01-26-07, 12:19 AM

I picked one of these up and I'm mostly happy with it and it sounds good. My biggest complaint would be having to push the preset button before you can push the number. The buttons don't do anything otherwise so its seems pointless.

dead of night

01-26-07, 04:41 AM

What would I need to go with the HDT? Both an amplifier and a preamplifier?

Mike Walker

01-26-07, 08:35 AM

Dead of night wonders if he would need "both an amplifier and a preamplifier".

Don't forget the post-amplifier! (KIDDING!)

dead of night

01-26-07, 09:51 AM

Dead of night wonders if he would need "both an amplifier and a preamplifier".

Don't forget the post-amplifier! (KIDDING!)
Okay, but what equipment would I need to set the HDT up?

cdswindell

01-26-07, 09:57 AM

Any old receiver with an open set of RCA analog inputs will work fine....

dead of night

01-26-07, 10:26 AM

Any old receiver with an open set of RCA analog inputs will work fine....
I'll be starting from scratch, my current home receiver is all tied up. So when I get the HDT, I'll either need an integrated amp, or an amp and preamp? I guess what I'm wondering is if the preamp is built into the tuner. Thanks. For $200, the HDT is the steal of the century.

red knight

01-26-07, 11:06 AM

You can go with: 1. A receiver, 2. An integrated Amp (have both pre+amp),
3. Pre-amp+Amp (seperates). Lets be nice here guys.

dead of night

01-26-07, 11:17 AM

Thanks, red knight.

doxytuner

01-26-07, 11:35 AM

You can go with: 1. A receiver, 2. An integrated Amp (have both pre+amp),
3. Pre-amp+Amp (seperates). Lets be nice here guys.

Your response was correct and to the point. The HDT-1 has no preamp. To be more specific, the receiver has a preamp, amp and tuner, the integraded amp has a preamp and amp and the separates have a preamp and power amp.
Richard

n2ubp

01-26-07, 03:25 PM

dead of night

01-26-07, 03:51 PM

If you ran out of spare RCA jacks on your receiver or standalone amplifier and you do not want
purchase a second receiver or amplifier you could always purchase a simple A/V switch from a big box store. You could also plug it directly into amplified computer speakers. You do not want to plug it into any phono jacks. Phono jacks usually include equalization to match recordsand will hose up tuner freq response.
Thanks for the advice. I guess my main problem is that my stereo system components are literally stacked on top of each other right now. I'd hate to load one more component on there.

I'm thinking that maybe an Arcam integrated amp and the HDT would be pretty good.

fastforward

01-27-07, 02:23 AM

After reviewing this thread, I ordered an HDT-1 on 1/6/7 from NewEgg – at that time, it was $180 delivered, so after the $25 rebate, I am in at $155. I figure my cost of being an early adapter and selling to upgrade to an HDT-2 will be relatively low. Now that I've used it a couple of weeks, I have delurked.

I have been using a Sumo Charlie tuner that was rebuilt by its designer about four years ago, and I also stream Internet stations via a Roku m500. These feed into a B&K Ref 30 preamp (the Roku via a digital connection), and I have a Parasound amp.

Overall, I am impressed. Selectivity is excellent, sensitivity is very good, sound quality is good to very good (and would be better if I could lock a conventional signal). HD is interesting; although it appears that a couple of Austin, TX stations listed on the HDradio website are not yet broadcasting HD signals. Unfortunately, two local stations have beautiful conventional signals but sound flat once the HD signal locks. From this forum, I understand that is more of a station issue, but it is annoying that I cannot lock the preset on the conventional signal.

I have the standard wish list for a future version, namely the ability to step the LCD backlight settings (I think the THX standard requires an ability to turn off such lights), the ability to lock a conventional signal, and one-step recall of a station memory (programming and direct frequency access would then require an initial key). It appears Master Theseus has me covered there. Those are the items I would expect for $225.

I would be willing to pay up to $349 for an HDT-2 if, in addition to the HDT-1+ features, it had a digital output (happy to see that will likely be on the HDT-1+), could stream Internet stations, and could be programmed, addressed and updated via its network IP address. The model here would be the RokuLabs method of streaming Internet radio (an m500 originally listed for $149, and a refurb at the RokuLabs website is currently $99, so an HDT-2 with the Internet radio features shoud be able to meet or beat the $349 pricepoint). I would not want it to require any computer software (beyond the browser -- special software is a dealkiller for me) or stream media from my computer (that is the Roku’s primary job). Rather, I would want the HDT-2 to stream directly from my network (without a PC powered), and have a simple interface like the Roku to set and rearrange presets (including conventional radio presets) and program Internet stations that use the top three or four codecs. It would preferably have a way to send a username and password for stations that require it, which would enable satellite radio subscribers to stream those stations from the 'Net (optionally, the tuner could also periodically sync to a time server to avoid clock error issues). A standard network connection would be fine – if I did not have a convenient wired network connection, I could set up a bridge (that would need to be referenced in the user manual). Alternatively, a PCMCIA slot with an included conventional network card and the ability to substitute a separately-sold wireless card or a satellite-specific interface card could be employed, but that would probably drive up the cost beyond what I would be willing to pay, and the optional cards would probably not have enough sales volume to permit a reasonable price. The other upgrade on the HDT-2 would be additional memory – three banks of ten for the NET, three for FM and two for AM. I am not that interested in a recording function (unless it can be done in a manner that does not add much cost, such as writing an MP3 to a user-supplied memory, such as a thumbdrive, via a USB port), but the ability to program a few “on time/preset/off time”-sequences might be an interesting method to record to another component (my minidisc will trigger on input), and would have other uses as well.

Given that the included hardware can decode network codecs and that many radio stations stream both conventional and HD programming (and many shortwave stations also stream), including Internet streaming would result in a universal tuner (streaming, is, in a way, a spiritual successor to shortwave, so including it would be consistent with the Sangean brandname) that would give the HDT-2 a selling point beyond a conventional tuner to appeal to consumers outside of HDradio markets, and give the tuner a longer shelf life and wider appeal should HDradio not continue to penetrate the broadcasting market.

MurrayW

01-27-07, 12:04 PM

...HD is interesting; although it appears that a couple of Austin, TX stations listed on the HDradio website are not yet broadcasting HD signals. Unfortunately, two local stations have beautiful conventional signals but sound flat once the HD signal locks...fastforward, congratulations on your delurkment! I live in Austin also and am interested in your comments and experience with the local stations. Which ones sound flat with the HD signals and which HD broadcasts have you noticed sound very good?
thanks,
Murray

Brian Beezley

01-27-07, 10:14 PM

[I've been e-mailing friends about the HDT-1 that arrived today and it occurred to me that I should be posting here. Below is the e-mail I sent a few hours ago. I will be doing a full technical review of the HDT-1 and posting it at my web site in a few days. All measurements mentioned here are preliminary and subject to further checking.]

My HDT-1 arrived a couple hours ago and I thought I'd pass along preliminary
impressions and measurements. I spent an hour and a half tuning around and
listening before I measured anything. I'm glad I did things in that order as
you'll see below.

I listened with a Stax SR-40 electret headset to eliminate room funnies, to put
my head in the exact stereo center, and to try to discern nuances, which I can
always hear better with headphones. I did a live A/B test with a level-matched
Sony ST-S555ES tuner, my standard. I fed both tuners through a 75-ohm power
splitter from by rotary HD6065P Yagi mostly pointed at L.A. and a fixed
vertically polarized FM-4G Yagi pointed at San Diego. All of the two or three
dozen FM tuners I've restored have sounded identical to me, despite much
searching for differences in sound, so the 555 is as good a standard as any.

I'm very impressed with the HDT-1 audio quality on both analog and digital. I
did not run many A/B analog comparisons with the 555, but I don't recall any
great differences. I do believe I heard some small ones and I'll return to
listen more. But the overall tonal balance sounded the same, remarkably so. From
reading the HDT-1 specs I wasn't expecting this.

In most cases I liked the HD Radio quality better than the analog. It usually
was brighter and it sometimes seemed crisper. It often had more separation,
sometimes so much that I thought it might be artifically enhanced. These kind of
differences could easily be due to the processing at the station. I heard no
digital artifacts on full-bandwidth digital signals. I did hear some artifacts
on a couple of multicast channels, but I didn't listen to these long. The
primary channel of multicast stations was surprisingly good. I don't think I
heard an artifact in that case, but I'll be listening more. I tried to listen
mostly to full 96 kbps single-channel nonmulticast digital signals to see what
the digital algorithm was capable of at its best.

There were sometimes level differences between analog and digital when the HDT-1
switched over. I had inserted a 50k pot in the line out to equalize levels with
the Sony ST-S555ES and this came in handy. Different stations required different
audio levels to match the Sony. I thought this was curious.

Sensitivity seemed fine, although I have few weak stations here, and the
selectivity was better than the Sony, which uses a pair of 250 GDTs in wide and
cascades a pair of 110s with them in narrow.

I did not like the sound of HD Radio on AM. The artifacts were immediately
obvious and funny. I would not listen to that kind of audio given a choice and
it is hard to believe anyone else would. I did not experiment much after hearing
what it sounded like, but I'll go back and listen more. This was a great
disappointment. The background noise did go away on digital. I can't remember if
the frequency response widened out, as it should have. I presume it did, but I
was so focused on the funny sound of the voices that I didn't pay attention. I
don't think I heard any music being transmitted on HD AM.

FM measurements. The 1-kHz mono distortion is around 0.08%. In stereo there are
many harmonics that extend well beyond what I see in an ordinary tuner. The
second was the largest and is around -50 dB. The third was at -60 dB. The rest
are lower and won't contribute much to THD, so I think it is about 0.33%, which
is what -50 and -60 yield. This is much higher than a good analog tuner in wide
IF mode. It is typical of an analog tuner in narrow mode, or maybe somewhat
lower (I often see 0.7% with a pair of 110s). I was completely unaware of any
distortion when listening to analog signals. This is why I'm glad I listened
first and didn't bias myself with measurements.

Now the really odd thing. The 1-kHz stereo separation measured 45 dB at high
signal levels. As I dropped the signal from the 73-dBf level where I normally
measure distortion, the channels started blending at 53 dBf. By 49 dBf there was
only 10 dB of separation left. This is a very high level for blend to occur.
Most tuners still have 50 dB of stereo quieting around 36-40 dBf. The S/N when
blend began was somewhere in the mid-60s, unnecessarily high I think.

So I couldn't really measure stereo sensitivity in the normal way because the
tuner had blended stereo away by the time 50 dB S/N was approached.

Now for mono. At low levels the tuner starts dropping the audio level. The
literal 50-dB mono quieting point is at 13.6 dBf. This would make it the most
sensitive tuner I've ever measured. But a 1-kHz tone is down 10 dB at that RF
level. The tone is down 3 dB at 17.6 dBf and down 5 dB at 16.6 dBf. The level
drops in steps, not continuously. The software is deciding that things are
getting bad and is doing a stepped mute. I don't think it ever cuts off the
audio completely.

So I'm not sure what to consider the 50-dB quieting sensitivity. If you're
willing to turn up the audio gain 10 dB then it is 13.6 dBf, a spectacular
figure. On the other hand, if you limit yourself to a 3-dB drop in signal level,
then the sensitivity is 17.6 dBf (not a bad figure in itself). At the 5-dB drop
point, 16.6 dBf, the S/N was 56 dB, not that far from the 50-dB standard. I'll
be going back and doing this again to see what else I can find. There may be
other things going on.

The adjacent channel selectivity is as spectacular as Bob reported. I got 63.5
dB and the upper and lower numbers differed only by 1 dB. Unlike anything I've
ever experienced, the interference once it began was not 1 kHz and a raft of
harmonics. It was all noise. I presume this means that the selectivity is
limited by phase noise, not a leaking signal, although it's not clear to me how
this occurs.

OK. I'm so fascinated by this device that I can't stand not playing with it
more, so back on the antenna it goes for more tuning around.

[Here is the second e-mail I just sent.]

Here are the deemphasis errors I measured on the HDT-1. Input was a 73-dBf mono
signal through the aux connector of the ST-1000A (very flat). I used a constant
audio level and my deemphasis utility to record the HDT-1 response and calculate
the errors.

Freq Error dB
1000 +0.0
2000 -0.2
3000 +0.9
4000 +1.4
5000 +1.6
6000 +1.7
7000 +1.9
8000 +2.1
9000 +1.9
10000 +1.4
11000 +1.0
12000 +0.6
13000 +0.4
14000 +0.2
15000 -0.5

The rise from 4000-10000 is quite large, the worst I've ever seen. I made this
test after thinking I was hearing a difference at high frequencies when
comparing the analog signal with my reference tuner.

I'm going to report this to Sangean as there's really no excuse for such a large
error, especially since the deemphasis is done in software.

I finally heard coding artifacts at 96 kbps on a female speaker. I was busy with
something else and didn't linger, but there were definitely some funnies.
Nothing like those on AM though.

I also heard some gross transcoding errors. I noticed telltale digital
artifacts, checked my preamp, and I was listening to the Sony tuner! It was the
digitally encoded voice of a foreign correspondent. When I switched to the
HDT-1, it was much worse. Don't transcode if you can help it is the rule.

Brian

n2ubp

01-27-07, 10:46 PM

I have the same Stax earspeakers (headphones), purchased in 1978, replaced the elements in the mid 1980's due to distortion issues, perhaps brought on by cranking up the volume too high. Thanks for the detailed observations Brian, nice work.

I took an inexpensive way out of streaming mp3 collections and internet radio sites to my sound system, using a Linex USB connected FM transmitter, designed by a Canadian company, seems to use Onkyo drivers. I've been comparing the output of this device as heard on the HDT-1, the Sangean ATS-803A stereo FM/AW/SW, a pair of Boston Acoustics Receptor clock radios, and whatever else I have around the house. The jury is still out on these tests with the ATS-803A providing the best results, the HDT-1 having alot of high background hiss on quiet passages, and the Receptors in mono only mode attached to the same outdoor antenna as the HDT-1 completely silent during quiet passages. The LineX unit seems to provide a 150 foot radius signal. Still trying to figure out why the HDT-1 has so much white noise in the background with this toy.

Steve
73 de N2UBP

Brian Beezley

01-28-07, 12:29 AM

Here are several more observations about the HDT-1.

HD mode is not always brighter than analog mode as I first thought. This varies considerably with the station. I suspect it depends on the transmit processing.

One station, KPBS in San Diego, had considerably less dynamic range in HD than analog. Weak classical passages were really boosted in level on HD. It really should be the other way around.

I did a brief check of the spectral bars. They are centered very approximately at 57, 77, 122, 263, 528, 1055, 2070, 4180, 8370, and 15450 Hz. Each bar is 4 or 5 dB, but I didn't check closely.

The bit error rate is always somewhere around 0.1. This can't be the actual error rate (1 bit bad in 10). It doesn't vary once HD is running. This display needs work.

The carrier to noise ratio display varies continuously and is very useful for antenna aiming.

Once you hit HD seek, all buttons are locked out until an HD signal is found. This is really annoying.

I ran several tests involving co-channel interference. It completely disappears in HD mode as you would expect. This can really silence a noisy background and so far, is the biggest benefit of HD for me. It should work the same for multipath although I haven't run into any today.

In one test the HDT-1 seemed to suppress co-channel interference for an analog station better than my Sony ST-S555ES, trying both wide and narrow filters in the 555. I don't know why this should occur.

If you unplug the unit, the clock resets but the station memories are retained. For how long I don't know.

After several hours of listening I finally tried speakers. No surprises, same results as headphones.

I tried listening for AM stereo stations but couldn't find any. I wonder if that feature has been removed. I have version 1.2F.

Brian

fastforward

01-28-07, 02:45 AM

Thanks Murray. I am in the West Lake Hills area of Austin, so I should get good reception for Austin. For those not familiar with the area, my house is about 3-1/2 miles west of, and 160' higher in elevation than, downtown Austin. Several radio towers are within 2.75 miles NNW at a point that is about 180' higher in elevation. From the NE corner of the house, I can see both the Texas State Capitol and radio aerials.

The Emmis stations (KGSR, KROX) are not sending HD signals yet (or at least I am not receiving HD from those stations). I've always had problems with the reception of KGSR 107.1, and have resorted to streaming it at times, but the Sangean picks it up without much effort (albeit the SSI is a few points lower than other stations). Most of the HD signals in the area are good. KUT (which also streams) has one of the best sounding HDradio broadcasts in the area, and primarily broadcasts the BBC on its second band (on Friday, I left my stereo powered while I ran a few errands; when I walked into the house later, I was a bit disconcerted by a clock chime, and could not figure out where it was sourced, as I don't have a clock that chimes -- then I realized it was Big Ben via the BBC). The worst HDradio signal at this time, at least at my location, is KVET 98.1 -- the broadcast signal sounds great, and when HD kicks in its muddled, like someone put boxes over my speakers. Frustrating, given that the conventional broadcast sounds great, even though I hardly ever listen to that station.

Brian Beezley

01-28-07, 11:39 AM

I made some measurements of the HDT-1 AM performance this morning. I thought the results were quite interesting.

First of all, when tuning around before sunrise on weak skywave signals I noticed that a tone would appear and then drop in frequency as the audio unmuted. This never occurred for strong signals but was quite common on weak ones. It sounded like the HDT-1 was phase-locking to the AM carrier and doing synchronous detection.

I checked 1-kHz AM distortion. I got 0.6% at 90% modulation (signal generator distortion 0.3%) and 0.4% at 30% modulation (signal generator 0.1%). These numbers aren't bad for an AM detector. I never heard anything that I thought was waveform distortion.

The frequency response was more interesting. The bass does have a rather high cutoff as Bob reported. I measured -3 dB at 215 Hz using the 1-kHz response as a reference. It was down 6 dB at 130 Hz, 10 dB at 72 Hz, and 12 dB at 55 Hz. Seems like a single-pole rolloff.

Listening to several analog AM signals, I wasn't aware of the bass rolloff, which surprised me. There is an old rule from the vacuum tube days that the product of the bass and treble cutoffs in Hz for a radio should be around 500,000. Supposedly this preserves tonal balance. The idea is that if you don't have extended treble response you should roll of the low end so the audio doesn't sound bassy. The HDT-1 seems to do this. Its cutoff product is 564,375.

The treble response is down 3 dB at 2625 Hz, but what's interesting is the rolloff. The tuner pretty accurately follows the suggested NRSC AM deemphasis curve, which is a 75-us pole and a zero at 8700 Hz (so-called modified 75 us). Here are the errors I measured from NRSC AM deemphasis:

Freq Error dB
1000 +0.0
2000 +0.1
3000 -0.5
4000 -2.1
5000 -3.7
6000 -6.0

This is the closest NRSC response I've ever measured. Ordinary tuners and radios typically start to cave in below 3000 Hz.

The tuner has an impressive brick-wall filter somewhere around 5800-6500 Hz. Response drops suddenly there. The edge of the filter moves around in little steps that you can see as you vary the modulation frequency. Apparently the tuner adaptively widens the passband somewhat if it thinks what's out there isn't interference from the adjacent channel. I will hook up two signal generators and check this out a bit more. When tuning around before dawn, I was very impressed with the selectivity. I could easily pick up weak skywave signals next to strong local ones without any sideband splatter.

After the sun rose and the local stations turned on their HD, I was able to find a few voices that didn't sound so funny when digitized. The algorithm seems to be quite sensitive to the particular voice. The frequency response noticeably widens, both on the bottom and top ends, when HD kicks in.

Brian

Brian Beezley

01-28-07, 01:52 PM

I forgot to mention that I scanned the AM band before dawn for AM stereo signals but found none. I checked out two strong Radio Disney stations, both of which I believe run AM stereo, but only mono appeared. I suspect this feature has been removed from my version 1.2F box.

Brian

Brian Beezley

01-28-07, 02:14 PM

Let's see if AVS will let me show a link now that this is my fifth post.

It won't.

I'll use this message to report that the HDT-1 is down 0.7 dB at 40 Hz and 1.1 dB at 20 Hz for FM analog. The output RC network is a 2.2k in series with 10 uF, with .001 uF across the RCA jack. This network is down 3 dB at 7 Hz and accounts for 0.5 dB of the 1.1 dB drop at 20 Hz. I had thought the HDT-1 was slightly bass shy, but it was probably my imagination as these numbers don't show much.

Brian

Brian Beezley

01-28-07, 02:21 PM

OK, here's what I really wanted to say.

http://users.tns.net/~bb/fmdist.jpg shows the FM distortion spectrum for a 1-kHz left-channel sine wave deviated 75 kHz (9% pilot). The horizontal axis is 0 to 10 kHz and the vertical grid has 10-dB steps. Normally I never see harmonics above 5 kHz. They are small in the HDT-1 but they are present. The RMS sum of the harmonics shown is 0.3% THD.

The distortion spectrum does change if the signal is off frequency or is very strong. This was for a 73-dBf signal within 1 kHz of channel center.

Brian

dead of night

01-28-07, 02:27 PM

Thanks for all that info, fastforward and Brian Beezley. I'm not sure if I understand much of it, but thanks for contributing. I own the HDR-1 and pretty much receive all HD stations. The only thing I have trouble with are 2 of the HD2 broadcasts, which I've found are harder to get the weaker the primary signal is. Have you found the same thing?

rwagoner

01-28-07, 05:57 PM

Interestingly, my wife picked my Carver tx-11b over the FM HD sound on the Sangean every time. I am betting it has much to do with HD processing at the station, but it makes you wonder.

My "problem," more than anything else, is that I cannot use the supplied loop antenna and receive AM HD (or AM analog, for that matter) while my plasma TV is on. Anyone happen to know, before I try it, if shielded wire run to the loop farther away from the tuner, would help? The tuner is at least three feet away (below) from the TV.

By the way, I am new here. My name is Richard, and I have been following HD radio for a long time as part of my radio column that runs in the local paper. My normal daily job is teaching math.

Richard Wagoner

Brian Beezley

01-28-07, 06:36 PM

Bob Smith

01-28-07, 06:46 PM

It's great to have you in the group Brian, I think we're both amazed at how good this very inexpensive little tuner is on analog performance as well as HD. I'd buy the thing in a heartbeat just to have its FM performance. I'm really amazed at what you get for $200. I just wish you could defeat the HD so I could do true analog performance comparisons to my other tuners.

Our measurements seem to track pretty well, so I think we can assume the tuner performance is fairly consistent fron unit to unit and our test equipment seems to be calibrated pretty well. That's another advantage to a 'digital' tuner, no IF or other analog components to drift. Just the RF components in the front end that determine sensitivity and overload.

Thanks for all the data, looking forward to what else you find.

Bob Smith

LinuxSheeple-E

01-28-07, 07:57 PM

I've posted a preliminary technical review of the Sangean HDT-1 here:

http://users.tns.net/~bb/hdt-1.htm

It includes some photos. I'll be updating the review as I make more measurements and discover more secrets of this fascinating tuner.

One interesting thing I came across this morning is that the FM detector automatically widens its passband for an overdeviated signal. I popped the signal-generator deviation up to 150% (112.5 kHz). At first the waveform was highly distorted, but then the distortion started going away in little increments until the sine wave was clean again. Amazing stuff.

Brian

Hello,

Thanks for the pictures. The LG module looks similar to the Samsung module in the Radio Shack table radio. The Samsung module also has 50 pin and 20 pin connectors but the pins are at right angles so the module stands up. Are there other chips on the underside of the DSP board? The Samsung module has chips on both sides and includes an Atmel AVR processor.
The 20 pin connector at the back edge of the board is likely JTAG. The Samsung board has a 10 pin 2mm connector for JTAG but it is not a standard Atmel pinout.

What is the processor used? A Mega128L perhaps?

73 Eric

Brian Beezley

01-28-07, 08:28 PM

I'm not sure what's on the other side of the LG board as I can't see beneath it. I just assumed that the lower board held the utility processor, but maybe not. Whatever it does sure requires a lot of electrolytics!

I need a few days to gather the courage to tweak the adjustments I can see and to take the boards apart to see what's going on. This is the first new piece of electronics I've bought in years, maybe decades. The one-year warranty that came with it, which of course rightly vaporizes once you start messing around, is giving me pause.

Brian

doxytuner

01-28-07, 09:11 PM

TO BRIAN BEEZLEY
I'm amazed at all the technical data you have garnered and the array of test equipment at your disposal as well as your outstanding posts and web site. I'm able to get through it in a general way, but not an engineer way, and it gives me an insight as to the workings of the HDT-1 TUNER. Thank you for all your work.
Richard
P.S.- Go back to Brian's 1/28/07 post and you can click onto his web site.

cbevil

01-29-07, 02:04 AM

Got my HDT-1 last Wednesday, but didn't have time to set it up until Saturday morning. I've been listening to it on and off this weekend, and so far I am very happy with it. I have been looking to buy a tuner for a while now (been using an old receiver as a tuner), waiting for one that had all the features I wanted. The HDT-1 is pretty darn close -- and costs a good deal less than I thought I'd have to spend. My wife and I have a Boston Receptor HD Radio, but I didn't really appreciate HD until hearing it on my stereo system. Wow; it sounds great! I'm definitely pleased with that aspect of the HDT-1.

Some of the things I was worried about turned out to be no big deal. The screen is a bit bright, but it does dim (a little) when the unit is in standby, and I have it behind smoked glass, so for me it's not really an issue. And for some reason I thought you could not cycle through presets, but it turns out you can -- just hit preset and then tune up and down. I like the HD seek function, and the ability to directly type in a frequency to tune to; these were unexpected and very welcome.

I think most people have covered features that I'd want added. I don't see me using the record function Master Theseus mentioned, unless it was like a TiVo and could record a radio show at a specific time; that might be useful. The ability to turn HD on and off is desirable for the reasons already mentioned, and also just to show your friends the difference between the two (and maybe even cause them to go out and buy an HD tuner -- it's like free marketing ;) ). One feature request I have is to be able set the scroll speed of the radio text. Currently it is about 1 character per second, which can add up when you are waiting to see the artist and song title. Not a big issue; just something I noticed.

I read fastforward's post (partially quoted below) and found it interesting; I think his Internet radio idea is very cool. If there's going to be a hard drive in the next HDT version for recording, it stands to reason it should be able to be used to store URLs and IDs for Internet radio stations as well. I'd add that I wouldn't mind having the option to also stream music from my PC, as I don't yet have a device to do this (like the Roku).

I would be willing to pay up to $349 for an HDT-2 if, in addition to the HDT-1+ features, it had a digital output (happy to see that will likely be on the HDT-1+), could stream Internet stations, and could be programmed, addressed and updated via its network IP address. The model here would be the RokuLabs method of streaming Internet radio (an m500 originally listed for $149, and a refurb at the RokuLabs website is currently $99, so an HDT-2 with the Internet radio features shoud be able to meet or beat the $349 pricepoint). I would not want it to require any computer software (beyond the browser -- special software is a dealkiller for me) or stream media from my computer (that is the Roku’s primary job). Rather, I would want the HDT-2 to stream directly from my network (without a PC powered), and have a simple interface like the Roku to set and rearrange presets (including conventional radio presets) and program Internet stations that use the top three or four codecs. It would preferably have a way to send a username and password for stations that require it, which would enable satellite radio subscribers to stream those stations from the 'Net (optionally, the tuner could also periodically sync to a time server to avoid clock error issues). A standard network connection would be fine – if I did not have a convenient wired network connection, I could set up a bridge (that would need to be referenced in the user manual). Alternatively, a PCMCIA slot with an included conventional network card and the ability to substitute a separately-sold wireless card or a satellite-specific interface card could be employed, but that would probably drive up the cost beyond what I would be willing to pay, and the optional cards would probably not have enough sales volume to permit a reasonable price. The other upgrade on the HDT-2 would be additional memory – three banks of ten for the NET, three for FM and two for AM. I am not that interested in a recording function (unless it can be done in a manner that does not add much cost, such as writing an MP3 to a user-supplied memory, such as a thumbdrive, via a USB port), but the ability to program a few “on time/preset/off time”-sequences might be an interesting method to record to another component (my minidisc will trigger on input), and would have other uses as well.

Given that the included hardware can decode network codecs and that many radio stations stream both conventional and HD programming (and many shortwave stations also stream), including Internet streaming would result in a universal tuner (streaming, is, in a way, a spiritual successor to shortwave, so including it would be consistent with the Sangean brandname) that would give the HDT-2 a selling point beyond a conventional tuner to appeal to consumers outside of HDradio markets, and give the tuner a longer shelf life and wider appeal should HDradio not continue to penetrate the broadcasting market.