Does anyone realize that there is an upscaler issue with the PS3 Blu-ray player that down converts to 720P to 480P in most older HDTVs?

If you have this issue, Sony says that a fix is on the way. :)

http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=5032

November 21, 2006 4:28 PM

Sony working to resolve upscaler issue with older HDTVs

DailyTech reported last week that Sony's PlayStation 3 has issues with upscaling to 1080i resolution. The problem stems from the fact that some older HDTV's can only display in high definition resolutions of 480p or 1080i -- 720p is not an option for these TVs. For a PS3 title running in native 720p resolution, a PS3 will not upscale to 1080i, but will instead downgrade to 480p.

According to GameDaily BIZ, Sony has acknowledged that this is a problem for the PS3. The following statement was provided by Sony Computer Entertainment America:

A small number of older High Definition television sets found in the United States only have 1080i inputs for HD signals. Those televisions will currently only play some PS3 titles at 480p resolution. PS3 games render images at either 720p or 1080p for High Definition and you need 720p input on the TV to play select games that do not support 1080p. This is an issue on the side of the individual television sets, which do not accept 720p input, so when a game outputs an HD signal only at 720p, these select TVs have to display the game at 480p instead.

A fix is in the works, but there was no timetable given on availability.

The funny thing is how Sony blames the "older" tvs....I'm sorry, but when did my 3-4 year-old tv become "old?"...just fix my ps3 Sony...sigh

And who made these TVs? Sony? :D :p
LOLOLOLOLOL

This is an issue on the side of the individual television sets, which do not accept 720p input, so when a game outputs an HD signal only at 720p...

No... this is an issue on the side of Sony not doing their [CENSORED] homework!

Come on Sony, arn't there enough older set in Japan right now. Why eles would we be able to have 1080i over component and why is it law in Japan untill at least 2010.

No... this is an issue on the side of Sony not doing their [CENSORED] homework!

Agreed. Xbox 360 did it. It's retarded! I bet they were so busy making sure the system can fully resolve 1080p that they forgot to test 720p on older tvs. Idiots!

Good news is that a fix is coming. The PS3 self updates with internet connection. Also, games can have updates built into them.

This is so funny, because one of my Sony HD sets is unable to display anything in 720p. Only 1080i...pretty ironic, huh?

Ok, I'll bite.

This sort of thing happens all of the time to all manufacturers.

HD DVD supports and Sony haters might recall that the Toshiba A1/XA1 had a terrible problem with scaling to 720P: the signal was first downscaled to 480P then upscaled to 720P, effectively eliminating most of the benefits of HD. A later firmware release resolved this issue.

I do not recall anyone calling Toshiba names as this thread is doing of Sony.

Let's lighten up on all of these manufacturers. They are all late with their deliveries and have issues that have to be fixed.

Ok, I'll bite.

This sort of thing happens all of the time to all manufacturers.

HD DVD supports and Sony haters might recall that the Toshiba A1/XA1 had a terrible problem with scaling to 720P: the signal was first downscaled to 480P then upscaled to 720P, effectively eliminating most of the benefits of HD. A later firmware release resolved this issue.

I do not recall anyone calling Toshiba names as this thread is doing of Sony.

Let's lighten up on all of these manufacturers. They are all late with their deliveries and have issues that have to be fixed.

Sorry, but no. The difference here is as follows:

Sony delayed the release of PS3 for several months because of a parts supply issue. That provided them more than enough time to test their product and *gasp* try different TV configurations... If they did know this issue existed, they were deceptive in not publicizing it before people purchased the PS3. If they didn't know, it is a sign to me of pure incompetence...especially if the issue had arisen with other manufacturers before them.

I didn't call other companies names...well except Mits for not providing my TV an HDMI input...but I won't open that old wound. I AM calling Sony names because they were either incompetent or deceptive. I paid good money for their product, and that gives me the right to call them whatever I please. In this case, it is nothing good.

Ok, I'll bite.

This sort of thing happens all of the time to all manufacturers.

HD DVD supports and Sony haters might recall that the Toshiba A1/XA1 had a terrible problem with scaling to 720P: the signal was first downscaled to 480P then upscaled to 720P, effectively eliminating most of the benefits of HD. A later firmware release resolved this issue.

I do not recall anyone calling Toshiba names as this thread is doing of Sony.

Let's lighten up on all of these manufacturers. They are all late with their deliveries and have issues that have to be fixed.
I partially agree... this does happen from time to time. But while I do not specifically recall anyone calling Toshiba names, there was plenty of outrage. What Toshiba did was a total blunder, and was illogical.

Their saving grace? Firmware upgrade. Same saving grace for Sony.

-T

Sorry, but no. The difference here is as follows:
Sorry but yes. There is no difference.

Sony delayed the release of PS3 for several months because of a parts supply issue. That provided them more than enough time to test their product and *gasp* try different TV configurations... You think Toshiba didn't get delayed? You better read up on your HD-DVD history.

If they did know this issue existed, they were deceptive in not publicizing it before people purchased the PS3. If they didn't know, it is a sign to me of pure incompetence...especially if the issue had arisen with other manufacturers before them. All you said here can be said about Toshiba's HD-DVD player. Enough said.

I paid good money for their product, and that gives me the right to call them whatever I please. In this case, it is nothing good. For our sake, don't let us know when you're satisfied that Sony fixed all of your PS3 grievences.

As far as the topic is concerned, the OP should know better that this is an issue with 720p games. Since there is no upscaler/converter in the PS3 code, natively rendered 720p games will only get upconverted by HDTVs with upconversion capability.


fuad

Ok, I'll bite.

This sort of thing happens all of the time to all manufacturers.

HD DVD supports and Sony haters might recall that the Toshiba A1/XA1 had a terrible problem with scaling to 720P: the signal was first downscaled to 480P then upscaled to 720P, effectively eliminating most of the benefits of HD. A later firmware release resolved this issue.

I do not recall anyone calling Toshiba names as this thread is doing of Sony.

Let's lighten up on all of these manufacturers. They are all late with their deliveries and have issues that have to be fixed.
This is no time to be a blind and biased fanboy! :eek:

Obviously you don't see the BIG PICTURE!

Most of these PS3s would be bought by J6P, a lot of people who do not visit this site. Imagine one trying to see the benefit of the Blu-ray player, buys a BR movie, inserts it into his PS3 and the player downgrades the signal to 480P??? :eek:

He definitely would not know the PQ that BR is capable of...HE'LL NEVER BUY ANOTHER BR MOVIE! Because he would tell himself that his DVD collection is good enough...WHAT DO YOU IMAGINE THIS WOULD DO TO BLU-RAY MOVIE SALES IF THE MAJORITY OF PS3 BUYERS THINK THE MOVIES, THOUGH COSTING TWICE AS MUCH AS A DVD, HAVE THE SAME PQ RESOLUTION??? :eek:

Why has Sony released this player with such a DANGEROUS PROBLEM??? :eek:
And despite their foreknowledge that most HDTV owners have older model TVs??

As far as the topic is concerned, the OP should know better that this is an issue with 720p games. Since there is no upscaler/converter in the PS3 code, natively rendered 720p games will only get upconverted by HDTVs with upconversion capability.
fuad
Really? Try selling your eloquenly worded excuse and reason to most of the J6Ps, who mostly have ZERO AV knowledge!

MOST PEOPLE HAVE OLDER HDTVs. Most PS3 buyers buy mainly on the basis of their recognition and ownership of the PS2, which is a great gaming machine (which I proudly own) and would buy a PS3 wether it had a BR player or not...and that's a fact.

While this is a fact, it is also a fact that a number of these people would experiment with the BR player, and imagine their surprise when it shows PQ on par with their DVDs? They'll never buy another BR movie but would definitely keep their PS3s. Problem with this is that the BR player is Sony's vehicle for placing BR movies at the top of the war! :eek:

Ok, I'll bite.

I do not recall anyone calling Toshiba names as this thread is doing of Sony.



That's a joke, right? Seriously, you don't remember anybody bashing the Toshiba A1 or claiming that all Toshiba products in general are junk?

Really? Try selling your eloquenly worded excuse and reason to most of the J6Ps, who mostly have ZERO AV knowledge! That's why you're here for: to educate the J6P population of the right equipment to get with their PS3s and BD players. Or are you here for some other reasons?

MOST PEOPLE HAVE OLDER HDTVs. Most PS3 buyers buy mainly on the basis of their recognition and ownership of the PS2, which is a great gaming machine (which I proudly own) and would buy a PS3 wether it had a BR player or not...and that's a fact. Again, the thread that you started is about PS3 games that are NATIVELY RENDERED at 720p cannot be upscaled to 1080i/p. If your HDTV doesn't accept 720p, you are out of luck. But if your HDTV does accept 720p then either displays it natively or upconvert it to 1080i, then you are all set.

This issue is not about the PS3 cannot display BD movies at 720p. In fact, US owners of PS3s have the opposite issue: their PS3s forces 1080i video even if they have set it at 720p. So even with the older HDTVs, this is not a problem as I heard the older sets are either 480p or 1080i. Total effect is that the PS3's BD movie playback on older HDTVs is not a problem.


fuad

LAGOSIAN...The PS3 ONLY downconverts video games NOT Blu-Ray movies!

Just thought I would let everybody know:)

Really? Try selling your eloquenly worded excuse and reason to most of the J6Ps, who mostly have ZERO AV knowledge!

MOST PEOPLE HAVE OLDER HDTVs. Most PS3 buyers buy mainly on the basis of their recognition and ownership of the PS2, which is a great gaming machine (which I proudly own) and would buy a PS3 wether it had a BR player or not...and that's a fact.

While this is a fact, it is also a fact that a number of these people would experiment with the BR player, and imagine their surprise when it shows PQ on par with their DVDs? They'll never buy another BR movie but would definitely keep their PS3s. Problem with this is that the BR player is Sony's vehicle for placing BR movies at the top of the war! :eek:
With more than half of the televisions sold within the last year and a half I hardly think that the majority of television owners have "old" televisions.
if the number of households with HDTV has doubled in the last year, and HDMI has been in well over 50% of the televisions sold in the last year, how many do you think have HDMI?
Jeez even many of the DVD players out now have HDMI.
The fact is that most HDTV sets in real people's homes DO have HDMI and the majority of HDTV owners will not be having any issues with this.

Let's look at North America.

# HDTV sets sold 2003
2.5 Million
# HDMI supporting companies
1

# HDTV sets sold 2004
6.8 Million
# HDMI supporting companies
57 (including Toshiba, Disney, Sony, Hitachi, Panasonic, Philips, LG, Pioneer, Sanyo, Samsung, TEAC, Paradigm, Nvidia, Canon, NAD, NEC, D-Link, Cisco, Nikon, Onkyo, Thomson and TDK)

# HDTV sets sold 2005
10.8 Million
# HDMI supporting companies
162

# HDTV sets sold 2006
17 Million
# HDMI supporting companies
300

# current HDMI supported devices
over 1,000

Figures from CEA.

Also I don't think the average person suddenly lost internet connection. You need to at least be able to learn how to check for firmware upgrades (dead easy, especially for the PS2 owner who will find the navigation menu even easier than that of the PS2) which means the 720p issue, when the next firmware upgrade comes out, will be an issue that's lying dead in the water ages before J6P ever needs to worry about it.

The real issues is why does Sony keep embarassing themselves. People were told to wait for the Playstation 3 for a nice console/BD player and Sony launches it without the same support that can be had in a $60 DVD player?

How many cheeks to people have to turn before they get tired of being slapped?

The fact is that you do not release any upscaling or HD product like a DVD player or in this case a Blu-ray capable game console that does not scale video to the 3 standards in resolution which are 480p, 720p and 1080i regardless of the native rez of the video on the disc period. 1080p is new and is handled properly by the system but to not scale the video internally with in the console and rely only on the display is unheard of cause every upscaling DVD player gives you a choice of the three main standards as do every Blu-ray and HD-DVD player as well as the Xbox 360. It's different if a player/console doesn't then handle the scaling properly but to not include the support for it in the hardware itself is foolish and stupid given the experience that Sony has with upscaling players and the insurance of compatibility with the BD spec with both old hdtv's and curent and future displays. This is yet another blunder for Sony in the rush to catch up to microsofts lead in console sales and HD-dvds lead in movie sales. They have had alot of bad luck in the past several months and things continue to show that there are willing to shove BD down our throats why'll also shoving something else up our collective butts. I once believed in this company but have seen the light of there BS promotion and advertisements. 1080p for all PS3 games, UMD to be profitable for movie content providers, 4 million PS3 systems by years end, 2 million for launch then downgraded to 400,000 then down graded even further, full backwards compatibilty with previous 2 PS consoles, we ( Sony) do not believe in releasing two different skews for the same product in this industry like Microsoft has chosen to do because we believe this will cause confusion, we have been developing the sixaxis controller all along ( yea wright ) etc, etc..... If this was a simple omission then a firmware update would have been up already but the fact they they now have to figure out how to get it corrected and there is no time table I mean come on. Toshiba at least has been providing fast updates when issues arise as has OPPO Digital for there Upscaling players. I am now immune to Sony cool aid.

The real issues is why does Sony keep embarassing themselves. People were told to wait for the Playstation 3 for a nice console/BD player and Sony launches it without the same support that can be had in a $60 DVD player?
How many cheeks to people have to turn before they get tired of being slapped?
That's the real issue?
Ha ha ha!
Can a $60 DVD player play SACDs, Blu-ray discs, surf the web, install two seperate OS', play PS3 and over 95% of PS2 and PS1 discs?
Can it hmurchison?
How many posts of yours do we have to read without getting tired of the same old Blu-ray/Sony bashing in amongst the handful of pro-Blu-ray posts that you post elsewhere in a pathetic attemp to still appear that you support nothing but good HD on either format?

That's a joke, right? Seriously, you don't remember anybody bashing the Toshiba A1 or claiming that all Toshiba products in general are junk?

I remember a few people trashing Toshiba but very few. Mostly, the folks on this forum have given Toshiba every benefit of the doubt while continually holding Sony responsible for anything that happens to Blu-Ray. It has been quite one-sided.

Toshiba had multiple firmware updates to the A1/XA1 in order to get the players to stop freezing for many customers. Ok, they fixed it, I'm glad. Sony has a smaller resolution problem which they too are fixing with firmware. Be glad about that too.

As for myself, I have gotten to the point that the only reason I even mention a problem with HD DVD is to defend Blu-Ray from unfair criticism about something similar when HD DVD has gotten off scot-free on the forum.

Both camps have done reasonably well with the hardware under the circumstances. I cannot say the same for the software.

LAGOSIAN...The PS3 ONLY downconverts video games NOT Blu-Ray movies!

Just thought I would let everybody know:)
Yep, I think you are right there.

If this was a simple omission then a firmware update would have been up already but the fact they they now have to figure out how to get it corrected and there is no time table I mean come on. Toshiba at least has been providing fast updates when issues arise as has OPPO Digital for there Upscaling players. I am now immune to Sony cool aid. First of you need to use that Enter key a lot to make paragraphs.

Finally, it's been just TWO weeks since the Japanese launch and ONE WEEK since the US launch. Did Toshiba respond that fast? Hmmm?


fuad

First of you need to use that Enter key a lot to make paragraphs.

Finally, it's been just TWO weeks since the Japanese launch and ONE WEEK since the US launch. Did Toshiba respond that fast? Hmmm?


fuad


Well I don't see what the comparison is since this isn't an effect on Blu-Ray just the games. Why is anyone trying to downplay the the firmware updates from Toshiba that in most of those updates it actually gave features to the player. Samsung took how long to get its first official firmware update?

Sorry, but no. The difference here is as follows:

Sony delayed the release of PS3 for several months because of a parts supply issue. That provided them more than enough time to test their product and *gasp* try different TV configurations... If they did know this issue existed, they were deceptive in not publicizing it before people purchased the PS3. If they didn't know, it is a sign to me of pure incompetence...especially if the issue had arisen with other manufacturers before them.

I didn't call other companies names...well except Mits for not providing my TV an HDMI input...but I won't open that old wound. I AM calling Sony names because they were either incompetent or deceptive. I paid good money for their product, and that gives me the right to call them whatever I please. In this case, it is nothing good.

sony should just throw in the towel with all the damn incompetence that goes around there. hell they are recalling a bunch of their cybershot cameras now which is going to cost them millions of dollars. i'd hate to be the owner of any sony stocks here in the next few months

Look, Sony has indeed made some MAJOR fumbles. First, their system is not even out yet, except for the PS3. The PS3's launch was a disaster for them both in number of units and in bad press - people don't like to see people shot over a game system.

Also, it seems that the PS3 is not performing anywhere near the existing and cheaper 360. The on-line is not well thought out, nor is there streaming media support. The PS3 continues to lose exclusive titles to the 360 due to mismanagement by Kaz H.

On the BD front, the launch was marred with poor hardware, crappy encodes and high prices. Sure, you can fix almost all of this with FW updates, but is it too late? BD should have had the strong advantage, but through all of this incompetance, has left such big holes in their strategy that Toshiba has been able to exploit and drive their large HD-DVD experience truck right through.

In the end, J6P may NEVER be interested in either HD format as they are not interested in a Format War. Since Sony and BD have screwed up so badly to date, it is likely that this war will continue for some time. This opens the door quite widely for Microsoft to come along with their well-developed and well-marketed HD Download service sometime in the next couple of years.

At this point both Sony and Toshiba will lose.

It has become extremely popular lately to bash Sony but I find that most of those doing the bashing are completely out of touch with reality. Sony has made some mistakes but so have most of their competitors. I remember when the Xbox 360 launched (I was the first person I know of in my town to get one) and there was a literal barrage of negativity and bad press which I thought was completely unwarranted. I defended the 360 and Microsoft whenever the subject came up.

Now the PS3 has launched and many people feel the need to attack. But the fact of the matter is that Sony has done no worse with the launch of the PS3 than Microsoft did with the 360 (or Toshiba with the launch of the A1 for that matter). If you remember, the 360 was launched with a similar low quantity of consoles and people were complaining about shortages, there were the problems with defective units, disappointment with the lack of certain features (up-conversion for SD DVDs, inability to do downloads in the background, no HDMI, no HDDVD drive, etc.) and games which many people were claiming looked no better than current generation games. In fact, my 360 after a few hours displayed the "red ring of death" and I had to send it to Microsoft and wait a week for them to send me a new one. As an early adopter of consumer electronics tech I have come to expect a certain amount of problems like these. Such problems come with the territory and rare is the launch of a new product that is completely free of such problems. And the more complex the product is the more unlikely that it will be trouble free.

The unarguable fact is that the PS3 is probably one of the most complex pieces of tech that has ever been released to market--even more complex than the Xbox 360 and the problems that have been reported so far really are minor in the grander scheme of things. In fact, the PS3 is doing better in some regards than the 360 did at launch and we can all see that the Xbox 360 has moved beyond those problems with firmware fixes etc. The PS3 will likewise be improved over time and these issues which some people are making such a big deal about will be a distant memory.

It's all context. Toshiba might have been cut some slack since they were first out of the gate with an early adopter product that had the great PQ. So they were forgiven to some degree for mistakes. Sony and Blu-ray have fumbled many times, and they are producing initially hundreds of thousands of units not for early adopters, but for the genreral buying public. And they had the advantage of the Sansung, Panasonic, and Toshiba players as precedents. Despite all this, they made this huge blunder. It's about context and that is why there is less tolerance for their mistakes. FWIW, I have a similar attitude about the G2 Toshibas. I have posted elsewhere that it is inexcusable to be late with the G2s.

What is the "huge blunder" that you are refering to Jeff Lampert?

That's why you're here for: to educate the J6P population of the right equipment to get with their PS3s and BD players. Or are you here for some other reasons?

Again, the thread that you started is about PS3 games that are NATIVELY RENDERED at 720p cannot be upscaled to 1080i/p. If your HDTV doesn't accept 720p, you are out of luck. But if your HDTV does accept 720p then either displays it natively or upconvert it to 1080i, then you are all set.

This issue is not about the PS3 cannot display BD movies at 720p. In fact, US owners of PS3s have the opposite issue: their PS3s forces 1080i video even if they have set it at 720p. So even with the older HDTVs, this is not a problem as I heard the older sets are either 480p or 1080i. Total effect is that the PS3's BD movie playback on older HDTVs is not a problem.


fuad
I have to agree. People are getting two different issues mixed up.
Look, Sony has indeed made some MAJOR fumbles. First, their system is not even out yet, except for the PS3. The PS3's launch was a disaster for them both in number of units and in bad press - people don't like to see people shot over a game system.
Would also like to note that crimes were committed for the 360 at launch and just recently two trucks full of 360s were stolen and a driver badly beaten. I agree though, bad press/negativity just sticks to Sony like glue. I guess it’s like the Yankees/Red Sox World Series where everybody hated the Yankees and loved the Red Sox. As far as an HD download service...read up on the trouble people are having with that. Slow downloads, wrong movie getting downloaded, double charged for a rental, or no download at all. All the upper mgt is on vacation so people can't get a refund this holiday weekend.
It's all context. Toshiba might have been cut some slack since they were first out of the gate with an early adopter product that had the great PQ. So they were forgiven to some degree for mistakes. Sony and Blu-ray have fumbled many times, and they are producing initially hundreds of thousands of units not for early adopters, but for the genreral buying public. And they had the advantage of the Sansung, Panasonic, and Toshiba players as precedents. Despite all this, they made this huge blunder. It's about context and that is why there is less tolerance for their mistakes. FWIW, I have a similar attitude about the G2 Toshibas. I have posted elsewhere that it is inexcusable to be late with the G2s.
Again the issue being discussed here is with games and not BDs. I don't think any standalone has had this problem with PS3 titles. ;)It has become extremely popular lately to bash Sony but I find that most of those doing the bashing are completely out of touch with reality. Sony has made some mistakes but so have most of their competitors. I remember when the Xbox 360 launched (I was the first person I know of in my town to get one) and there was a literal barrage of negativity and bad press which I thought was completely unwarranted. I defended the 360 and Microsoft whenever the subject came up.

Now the PS3 has launched and many people feel the need to attack. But the fact of the matter is that Sony has done no worse with the launch of the PS3 than Microsoft did with the 360 (or Toshiba with the launch of the A1 for that matter). If you remember, the 360 was launched with a similar low quantity of consoles and people were complaining about shortages, there were the problems with defective units, disappointment with the lack of certain features (up-conversion for SD DVDs, inability to do downloads in the background, no HDMI, no HDDVD drive, etc.) and games which many people were claiming looked no better than current generation games. In fact, my 360 after a few hours displayed the "red ring of death" and I had to send it to Microsoft and wait a week for them to send me a new one. As an early adopter of consumer electronics tech I have come to expect a certain amount of problems like these. Such problems come with the territory and rare is the launch of a new product that is completely free of such problems. And the more complex the product is the more unlikely that it will be trouble free.

The unarguable fact is that the PS3 is probably one of the most complex pieces of tech that has ever been released to market--even more complex than the Xbox 360 and the problems that have been reported so far really are minor in the grander scheme of things. In fact, the PS3 is doing better in some regards than the 360 did at launch and we can all see that the Xbox 360 has moved beyond those problems with firmware fixes etc. The PS3 will likewise be improved over time and these issues which some people are making such a big deal about will be a distant memory.
Somebody that remembers :eek: ;)

dbl post

Look, Sony has indeed made some MAJOR fumbles. First, their system is not even out yet, except for the PS3. The PS3's launch was a disaster for them both in number of units and in bad press - people don't like to see people shot over a game system.

Also, it seems that the PS3 is not performing anywhere near the existing and cheaper 360. The on-line is not well thought out, nor is there streaming media support. The PS3 continues to lose exclusive titles to the 360 due to mismanagement by Kaz H.

On the BD front, the launch was marred with poor hardware, crappy encodes and high prices. Sure, you can fix almost all of this with FW updates, but is it too late? BD should have had the strong advantage, but through all of this incompetance, has left such big holes in their strategy that Toshiba has been able to exploit and drive their large HD-DVD experience truck right through.

In the end, J6P may NEVER be interested in either HD format as they are not interested in a Format War. Since Sony and BD have screwed up so badly to date, it is likely that this war will continue for some time. This opens the door quite widely for Microsoft to come along with their well-developed and well-marketed HD Download service sometime in the next couple of years.

At this point both Sony and Toshiba will lose.

Good points.

I think this will hurt BOTH formats. Rather than hurt one and help the other.

I mean looking at the statistics "on paper". The gen pop thinks BD will be the superior format. But when they get their PS3 and see a crappy picture on their 720p tv. They're not going to say 'BD sucks, HD-DVD must be better". They're going to think, if this is the better(again, on paper) of the two formats and my DVD's look just as good. Its not going to help either camp.

The gen pop doesn't care or even know what firmware updates are. I don't spend money on a car that has is marketed with a V12 but currently runs on only 9 cylinders(bad analogy, I know!). The average Joe 6 pack uys something expecting it to work and work out of the box.

HD DVD supports and Sony haters might recall that the Toshiba A1/XA1 had a terrible problem with scaling to 720P: the signal was first downscaled to 480P then upscaled to 720P, effectively eliminating most of the benefits of HD. A later firmware release resolved this issue.

I do not recall anyone calling Toshiba names as this thread is doing of Sony.

Weren't the instructions with HD DVD to set the output to match the resolution of the disc, ie 1080. So you weren't supposed to set it to output 720p.

A TV that cannot handle 720p is not legally entitled to be called an HDTV. Also, the only TVs I know of that will accept 1080i but not 720p are CRT-based sets (direct-view or rear-projection.) Until two years ago, all plasma and LCD direct-view panels, and all microdisplay-based sets, were natively 720p.

A post such as this one that fails to denounce any and all broadcasters who happen to broadcast OTA in 720p (e.g. local ABC and FOX stations,) on behalf of all those whose psuedo-HDTV sets can't handle 720p signals, is monstrously hypocritical.

Don't blame Sony for your own failure to purchase an HDTV.

A TV that cannot handle 720p is not legally entitled to be called an HDTV. Also, the only TVs I know of that will accept 1080i but not 720p are CRT-based sets (direct-view or rear-projection.) Until two years ago, all plasma and LCD direct-view panels, and all microdisplay-based sets, were natively 720p.

A post such as this one that fails to denounce any and all broadcasters who happen to broadcast OTA in 720p (e.g. local ABC and FOX stations,) on behalf of all those whose psuedo-HDTV sets can't handle 720p signals, is monstrously hypocritical.

Don't blame Sony for your own failure to purchase an HDTV.
Is that true? Then Sony is a culprit as well. From what I have read some people have Sony displays that don't scale 720P.

Regardless of where the blame belongs the more important fact is that this does not affect Blu-ray playback what-so-ever! SteroMadMan and others who keep repeating how this will hurt the future of the HD formats are spreading misinformation. Blu-ray movies output at 1080i/p so there is no compatibility issue with any HD display. The problem exists only for games that only output at 720p and is caused by the PS3's inability to scale/upconvert the 720p internally to output at 1080i/p. On displays lacking 720p input the signal is bumped down to 480p. Sony has acknowledged the problem and is working on a firmware fix.
One more time--THIS DOES NOT AFFECT BLU-RAY PLAYBACK!

A TV that cannot handle 720p is not legally entitled to be called an HDTV. Also, the only TVs I know of that will accept 1080i but not 720p are CRT-based sets (direct-view or rear-projection.) Until two years ago, all plasma and LCD direct-view panels, and all microdisplay-based sets, were natively 720p.

A post such as this one that fails to denounce any and all broadcasters who happen to broadcast OTA in 720p (e.g. local ABC and FOX stations,) on behalf of all those whose psuedo-HDTV sets can't handle 720p signals, is monstrously hypocritical.

Don't blame Sony for your own failure to purchase an HDTV. Not true. Some HDTV ready CRT rear projector 3 years back could not accept 720p.

My 57HDX82 57 CRT RP from Toshiba was bought in 2003 and an expensive feature of it was the ability to accept 720p signals (it converts them to 540p and then displays them at 1080i). A lot of sets in 2002 2003 with DVI did not accept 720p.

Also a lot of sets can acccept 720P but don't signal that as a supported resolution. Thats one of the PS3 problems. A lot of earlier LCD displays also don't have a native 720p display, they convert everything to a oddball native resolution like 768p. They can accept 720p signals but display them in their native 768p.

I think the issue here is not whether or not the display can accept 720p it is the PS3 not sending a 720p signal if the set is not giving that ID as a native resolution. The PS3 then downconverts automatically to 480p and the 720p stream never gets to the display to be converted.

Not true. Some HDTV ready CRT rear projector 3 years back could not accept 720p.

No, some non-HDTVs (pseudo-HDTVs) from 3-years back could not accept 720p.

768p is not legally an HDTV resolution, and is not defined by the HDTV spec, nor mandated by US Federal law. And the 768p issue that affects some microdisplays and panels should not be wrongly conflated with the deficiencies of older CRT-based sets (which are natively 1080i.)

It might be good customer relations for Sony to graciously support pseudo-HDTVs, but the blame justly lies with whoever manufactured and purchased TVs that don't conform to the HDTV spec (and apparently, Sony happens to be one of the offending manufacturerrs--but that has nothing to do with the Sony games division.)

Regardless of where the blame belongs the more important fact is that this does not affect Blu-ray playback what-so-ever! SteroMadMan and others who keep repeating how this will hurt the future of the HD formats are spreading misinformation. Blu-ray movies output at 1080i/p so there is no compatibility issue with any HD display. The problem exists only for games that only output at 720p and is caused by the PS3's inability to scale/upconvert the 720p internally to output at 1080i/p. On displays lacking 720p input the signal is bumped down to 480p. Sony has acknowledged the problem and is working on a firmware fix.
One more time--THIS DOES NOT AFFECT BLU-RAY PLAYBACK!
very true.

It does affect BD playback. You can't play BD at 720p.

Some 720p HDTVs really look a LOT better at 720p. That is a problem.

Personally, I have a small 23" 720p that does a wonderful job with 1080i input, I'm sure it would look great with BD at 1080i, but it has a good scaler, some HDTVs do not have a good scaler (i.e. they take 1080i and dump half the fields, ending up with "540p").

The PS3 should scale BD (and games) to whatever output you select. The 360 already does this, so we know it's not impossible.

It does affect BD playback. You can't play BD at 720p.

Some 720p HDTVs really look a LOT better at 720p. That is a problem.

Personally, I have a small 23" 720p that does a wonderful job with 1080i input, I'm sure it would look great with BD at 1080i, but it has a good scaler, some HDTVs do not have a good scaler (i.e. they take 1080i and dump half the fields, ending up with "540p").

The PS3 should scale BD (and games) to whatever output you select. The 360 already does this, so we know it's not impossible.
No. There are two issues going on here and they are slightly different. The Sony statement was in regards to the gaming issue, not BD playback.

1. Games internally rendered at 720P and fed to a display that can't scale the content to 720P are downconverted to 480P

2. BD movies output at 1080i or 1080P regardless of resolution selected in the dash, i.e. 720P, forcing the display to downconvert the material to 720P. This is different as nothing is getting downconverted to 480P.

FW for the BD issue is not as difficult. The one that will be hard is scaling the games as the PS3 does not have a hardware scaler and thus will have to somehow do the scaling in software which will cause performance issues. Also, as has been pointed out, the 360's hardware scaler has been used to cover up games not running at true 720P, but instead rendering at resolutions 33% less in the 600-633 range. This isn't widespread and AFAIK only three titles have done this.

There are two issues going on here and they are slightly different. The Sony statement was in regards to the gaming issue, not BD playback.Correct, there are 2 issues.
1. Not scaling games to whatever output you select.
2. Not scaling BD to whatever output you select.

Both should be fixed.

I don't think either will be hard to do. "Programmable hardware" pretty much describes any modern CPU or GPU. If the 360 can be programmed a year later to do 1080p output then the Cell+RSX, which easily outperforms the 360 hardware by a large margin, should have no problem. :cool:

Correct, there are 2 issues.
1. Not scaling games to whatever output you select.
2. Not scaling BD to whatever output you select.

Both should be fixed.

I don't think either will be hard to do. "Programmable hardware" pretty much describes any modern CPU or GPU. If the 360 can be programmed a year later to do 1080p output then the Cell+RSX, which easily outperforms the 360 hardware by a large margin, should have no problem. :cool:
I'm a Sony fan, but the PS3 isn't that much more powerful. Taking away processing power to scale the image will hurt performance esp. in games. I never said the PS3 can't be programmed to do it, just it would be taxing on the system.
http://dpad.gotfrag.com/xbox360/story/35372/?spage=1

I will say I want Sony to figure out a way to decrease the OS footprint as it takes far too many resources.

A TV that cannot handle 720p is not legally entitled to be called an HDTV.
*snip*
Don't blame Sony for your own failure to purchase an HDTV.
What kind of ******** post is this? :rolleyes:

So if my higher res "HDTV" isn't an HDTV then it must be an UberDefinition TV from the future since the PS3 can't scale UP to it's futuristic 1080i resolution.

Quit trying to defend Sony like they didn't screw up on this one. I've been a huge supporter of Sony and the PS3 until they let this one little, albeit major error slip through. All they have to do is fix it, and all should be forgiven. Until then, maybe I'll just go purchase a year old Xbox 360 that can actually output to my UDTV.

You don't have to have the capability for all HDTV formats to be considered HDTV. Technically, you'd only need to be capable of one. If you exclude those that cannot display 720p, you'd also have to exclude those that cannot display 1080p since that is a legitimate HDTV format.

...
The gen pop doesn't care or even know what firmware updates are. I don't spend money on a car that has is marketed with a V12 but currently runs on only 9 cylinders(bad analogy, I know!). The average Joe 6 pack uys something expecting it to work and work out of the box.
I see this argument a lot. I'm inclined to believe that by the time prices come down to the J6P level and the units are widely available, most of these problems will be corrected with the firmware. The units that ship at that point will already have the updated firmware and will work out of the box.

The problems that we are seeing now are being dealt with by early adopters who are a little more tech savvy. By the time this trickles down to the mainstream, all these issues will have been long forgotten.

Regardless of where the blame belongs the more important fact is that this does not affect Blu-ray playback what-so-ever! SteroMadMan and others who keep repeating how this will hurt the future of the HD formats are spreading misinformation. Blu-ray movies output at 1080i/p so there is no compatibility issue with any HD display. The problem exists only for games that only output at 720p and is caused by the PS3's inability to scale/upconvert the 720p internally to output at 1080i/p. On displays lacking 720p input the signal is bumped down to 480p. Sony has acknowledged the problem and is working on a firmware fix.
One more time--THIS DOES NOT AFFECT BLU-RAY PLAYBACK!


WRONG.

http://ps3.ign.com/articles/746/746492p2.html

On the same token, because PS3 cannot scale images up or down currently, owners of HDTVs that are capable of 720p resolutions but not 10800i images will see their Blu-Ray movies kicked down to 480p because the system can only output BD-ROM videos at 1080i/p and 480i/p. This cases is less troublesome overall than the 1080i-only issue, as most 720p-limited TVs tend to still have scaling abilities built in to convert the video (while most 1080i-limited TVs are either too old to know what a 720p signal is or else just have no means of displaying that resolution because of the screen's technology.) However, for those who have TVs truly limited to 720p, all you get is 480p. And for those whose HDTVs can play 1080i but are optimized for 720p, you don't have the option to watch your movies in the best-possible resolution for your TV set.


It can and will affect PQ on some 720p HDTV's. Besides, even if you do own one of the HDTV's that convert 1080i to 720p. Why would you want the TV doing the extra processing of the picture. Its not going to look like it could.

So if my higher res "HDTV" isn't an HDTV then it must be an UberDefinition TV from the future since the PS3 can't scale UP to it's futuristic 1080i resolution.
If your TV can't handle 720p, then how does it receive 720p broadcasts? If it can't handle 720p broadcasts, then it's not an HDTV. Where's your outrage over the 720p broadcasts your TV can't handle?

You don't have to have the capability for all HDTV formats to be considered HDTV. Technically, you'd only need to be capable of one. If you exclude those that cannot display 720p, you'd also have to exclude those that cannot display 1080p since that is a legitimate HDTV format.
So, if you bought a TV that can handle CBS and NBC broadcasts (1080i,) but cannot handle 720p broadcasts (ABC and FOX,) you'd still consider that to be an HDTV, and would send hate letters to ABC and FOX, demanding they fix their upscaling bug?

If memory serves (from my dark days in retail) during that era, didn't SONY have to put
"Hi-Scan" as a logo on their sets because they couldn't put the "HDTV" logo?


Those sets took any incoming 720p signal and displayed them at 480p (like the 51WS500)


That's what I recall...

I didn't say anything about sending hate letters. The fact of the matter is HDTV is HDTV. CBS doesn't need to send 1080i with 720p and 1080p simulcasts in order to be considered HDTV. Just as manufacturers don't have to sell only TVs that can accomodate all three formats to be considered HDTV.

I didn't say anything about sending hate letters. The fact of the matter is HDTV is HDTV. CBS doesn't need to send 1080i with 720p and 1080p simulcasts in order to be considered HDTV. Just as manufacturers don't have to sell only TVs that can accomodate all three formats to be considered HDTV.

Just as CBS doesn't have to send both 1080i and 720p, Sony's PS3 doesn't have to send both 720p and 1080i. But that means your TV has to be able to accept both, because otherwise there will be HDTV signals it can't handle.

The Federal regulators could have solved the problem by requiring all broadcasters to transmit in both 720p and 1080i. Or they could have solved the problem by requiring all HDTVs to accept both 720p and 1080i. It has to be one solution or the other, because otherwise some HDTVs wouldn't be able to handle some HDTV broadcasts. The solution the Feds chose was to require all HDTVs to accept both 720p and 1080i.

Just as CBS doesn't have to send both 1080i and 720p, Sony's PS3 doesn't have to send both 720p and 1080i. But that means your TV has to be able to accept both, because otherwise there will be HDTV signals it can't handle.

Which has nothing to do with your claim that 1080i TVs are not really HDTV.

If your TV can't handle 720p, then how does it receive 720p broadcasts? If it can't handle 720p broadcasts, then it's not an HDTV. Where's your outrage over the 720p broadcasts your TV can't handle?


Dude, you are out there. Even for AVS.

I doubt a reasonable explanation with mean much to you since you remain so woefully misinfiormed this far into the age of digital broadcasting, but I'm sure there will be others that are only now becoming involved in this technology so I'll go ahead and respond to your drivel.

ALL digital tuners, be they ATSC tuners, digital cable decoders, or HD satellite receivers with integrated tuners, will scale a 720p signal to 1080i, as well as other resolution frequencies. Calling a TV that can display a 1080i signal, even though horizontal resolution is short of the native 1920 lines, but not 720p something other than an HDTV is pure poppycock. These CRT-based displays do meet the ATSC standard of HDTV, or in some cases, HD ready TV (no internal tuner).

Now, go find another horse to flog.

Which has nothing to do with your claim that 1080i TVs are not really HDTV.
According to the FCC, a TV that receives 1080i, but not 720p, is not an HDTV. You can argue that point with the FCC, if you like.

Have a link?

Ok, I'll bite.

This sort of thing happens all of the time to all manufacturers.

HD DVD supports and Sony haters might recall that the Toshiba A1/XA1 had a terrible problem with scaling to 720P: the signal was first downscaled to 480P then upscaled to 720P, effectively eliminating most of the benefits of HD. A later firmware release resolved this issue.

I do not recall anyone calling Toshiba names as this thread is doing of Sony.

Let's lighten up on all of these manufacturers. They are all late with their deliveries and have issues that have to be fixed.
The thing is Toshiba just fixed the problem without trying to blame "older TV sets"

Bottom line is upscaled 1080i output on PS3 *is* broken w/r/t 720p games. It has nothing to do with older TV sets being broken. Even on newer TV sets if you use 1080i it will still be broken. If it were me, and Sony just said 1080i is broken and we will fix it, I would not be saying anything bad about Sony, but when they make this statement:

"This is an issue on the side of the individual television sets, which do not accept 720p input, so when a game outputs an HD signal only at 720p, these select TVs have to display the game at 480p instead."

Show me where Toshiba ever tried to blame their 720p problem on "older TVs" and I will support your position.

I can allow for some language translation error and maybe they meant to say this issue only affects older sets which do not accept 720p, but I'm going based on what was written above.

Regardless of where the blame belongs the more important fact is that this does not affect Blu-ray playback what-so-ever! SteroMadMan and others who keep repeating how this will hurt the future of the HD formats are spreading misinformation. Blu-ray movies output at 1080i/p so there is no compatibility issue with any HD display. The problem exists only for games that only output at 720p and is caused by the PS3's inability to scale/upconvert the 720p internally to output at 1080i/p. On displays lacking 720p input the signal is bumped down to 480p. Sony has acknowledged the problem and is working on a firmware fix.
One more time--THIS DOES NOT AFFECT BLU-RAY PLAYBACK!
The point they are attempting to make is people will try their PS3 expecting the best possible PQ. If it doesn't look good, they will start to think this HD stuff isn't all that it was hyped to be. A large number of people will not try to understand the nuances of what types of source will elicit the poor PQ.

BTW neither BluRay nor HD-DVD are guaranteed to be 1080p. 720p encodings are acceptable in the standards.

According to the FCC, a TV that receives 1080i, but not 720p, is not an HDTV. You can argue that point with the FCC, if you like.
The FCC makes no requirement that the TVs accept both 1080i or 720p on their component/HDMI inputs.

They require all 24 ATSC formats *for broadcasts* to be accepted.

All TVs labelled ATSC/HDTV accept 720p and 1080i *broadcasts*. That doesn't mean they accept 720p or 1080i over their component or HDMI inputs.

BTW I thought Panasonic plasmas from a couples of years ago also didn't accept 720p inputs? Those were extremely popular TVs. Also they were plasmas, not CRT as some people have suggested are the only sets that are affected.

The Federal regulators could have solved the problem by requiring all broadcasters to transmit in both 720p and 1080i. Or they could have solved the problem by requiring all HDTVs to accept both 720p and 1080i. It has to be one solution or the other, because otherwise some HDTVs wouldn't be able to handle some HDTV broadcasts. The solution the Feds chose was to require all HDTVs to accept both 720p and 1080i.
There is no problem from FCC perspective. Their purview is only broadcasts. They don't have authority nor do they care about interconnects between source and displays.

All ATSC/HDTV TVs with tuners *do* accept 720p *and* 1080i. There is no requirement beyond accepting and displaying those formats. The TV can scale it to 320x200 after accepting the signal for all the FCC cares.

You don't have to have the capability for all HDTV formats to be considered HDTV. Technically, you'd only need to be capable of one. If you exclude those that cannot display 720p, you'd also have to exclude those that cannot display 1080p since that is a legitimate HDTV format.
The confusion here is the HDTV term has been coopted to refer to interconnects.

An HDTV/ATSC television as the term originally meant must accept all 24 ATSC formats, which includes 720p *and* 1080i.

However HDTV as it applies to interconnects really has no requirements because that is not something the FCC governs. The marketing people have decided to use a term that really has no official requirements to refer to the capabilities of the interconnect between source and display, so in that sense the interconnects can just accept one or the other.

In fact, your TV can only accept 480p on component and still be considered HDTV as long as the internal ATSC tuner accepted 720p, 1080i, and the rest of the 24 ATSC formats. It can also have native pixel resolution of 320x200 and still be considered HDTV as long as the internal ATSC tuner can accept the appropriate formats.

This issue may not be fixable via a Firmware update (http://biz.gamedaily.com/industry/news/?id=14518)

Sony speaking too soon? No Way. :rolleyes:

This issue may not be fixable via a Firmware update (http://biz.gamedaily.com/industry/news/?id=14518)

Sony speaking too soon? No Way. :rolleyes:

Did you happen to read this bit?

"The SCEA spokesperson went on to assure us that Sony is working on a solution. A timetable for the fix wasn't provided, but it will be a simple firmware download when ready."

The other part is simply damage control, blaming older tvs, which is ridiculous! They should just fess up that they never bothered testing the 720 capability on older CRTs.

Did you happen to read this bit?

"The SCEA spokesperson went on to assure us that Sony is working on a solution. A timetable for the fix wasn't provided, but it will be a simple firmware download when ready."

The other part is simply damage control, blaming older tvs, which is ridiculous! They should just fess up that they never bothered testing the 720 capability on older CRTs.

Um, I think you should re-read that and this time a little slower.

scaling is software, I am sure there will be a fix eventually.

I have a Sharp 1080P TV that upconverts everything internally to 1080P, and any recent 1080P model should do the same (that goes for a good 720P and 1080i monitor as well). As long as the source is half way decent, the Sharp does its part well. 480P dvd images look hi def like and I doubt if the average person could tell that it isn't a true 1080 image.

On the other hand, some of my burned dvd's that have original bad source, don't look very good at all but are still watchable. Burned dvd's that had a decent source look pretty good. On the other hand, I use an inexpensive liteon dvd burner that took the place of my sequential vhs tape recorder.

So while the ps3 might take awhile to clean up its upscaler engine (hopefully), it's not the end of the world if you have a high quality hi def tv. And when it is fixed, it will just feed a better image to that TV.

Did you happen to read this bit?

"The SCEA spokesperson went on to assure us that Sony is working on a solution. A timetable for the fix wasn't provided, but it will be a simple firmware download when ready."
What you quoted was from "the original story" they quoted below the current update.

There is no hardware apparently, and I've had my doubts about how they'd pull this off in software, particularly for games, without affecting the system.

What you quoted was from "the original story" they quoted below the current update.

There is no hardware apparently, and I've had my doubts about how they'd pull this off in software, particularly for games, without affecting the system.
Like I've been saying, this is not an easy fix for games. I'm confident that the BD 720P issue can be fixed via software.
Sony has contacted us to let us know that they may have spoken a bit prematurely. SCEA's Dave Karraker, Sr. Director, Corporate Communications, informed GameDaily BIZ that they currently cannot confirm that this 1080i issue will be resolved via a firmware patch. The official line is now that they are "looking into the issue and haven't stated any actions that will be taken regarding it."

http://www.playstatic.com/news/205

"Sony has contacted us to let us know that they may have spoken a bit prematurely. SCEA’s Dave Karraker, Sr. Director, Corporate Communications, informed GameDaily BIZ that they currently cannot confirm that this 1080i issue will be resolved via a firmware patch. The official line is now that they are “looking into the issue and haven’t stated any actions that will be taken regarding it.” "
already posted :p

Slightly OT:
Has anybody contacted Sony to see if they will do anything about BD movies and 720P?

What's the point of even having an output setting in the XMB if the device is just going to output what it wants?

Why do people defend companies as if they were defending their own children. We all pay good money for these products, they should perform the way they are advertised regardless of the manufacturer. It troubles me to see people that will blame consumers (and we are all consumers) when a product doesn't perform as promised.

What's the point of even having an output setting in the XMB if the device is just going to output what it wants?

Why do people defend companies as if they were defending their own children. We all pay good money for these products, they should perform the way they are advertised regardless of the manufacturer. It troubles me to see people that will blame consumers (and we are all consumers) when a product doesn't perform as promised.
On multi-resolution games it outputs what you want and for displaying the OS. Hopefully for BD movies as well, but most likely not for games.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=756822

Not promising.
wow posted 3 times in this thread

But I thought the PS3 was the best tested BD player out there, that was the buzz and many people on the board were advocating buying the PS3 for BD watching.

What happened?

But I thought the PS3 was the best tested BD player out there, that was the buzz and many people on the board were advocating buying the PS3 for BD watching.

What happened?
Again it is outputting BD movies in 1080i/P so this issue isn't occuring for BD movies in the same way it is for games.

If your TV can't handle 720p, then how does it receive 720p broadcasts? If it can't handle 720p broadcasts, then it's not an HDTV. Where's your outrage over the 720p broadcasts your TV can't handle?
Because my cablebox scales everything to 1080i like it is supposed to! What is so hard to understand?

Because my cablebox scales everything to 1080i like it is supposed to! What is so hard to understand?
yes, the FCC mandate is for tuners and not displays, he was wrong.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=751368

Interesting thread. Look for a poster named Darknight in this thread and pay very close attention to what he is writing.

Clearly he's an anonymous insider and several people know it in there, for starters.

Worth reading.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=751368

Interesting thread. Look for a poster named Darknight in this thread and pay very close attention to what he is writing.

Clearly he's an anonymous insider and several people know it in there, for starters.

Worth reading.
Like I said before, it will take a combination of two things to make this go away easily. First, Sony has to allow developers to use the internal hardware scaler. Second developers will have to release a patch for each game that doesn't support 1080i. That will be the easiest way for this to work. If not then each developer would have to patch the game with their own solution on how they handle the scaling as a rendering pass in the game and that will be more complicated cuz then you have to start worrying about a performance hit for the rendering pass. I'm not talking about rendering the game initially at 1080, but a rendering pass that will scale the output image after the core rendering is done.

Again, I've been saying this from the beginning yet people still continue to not read what has been said. A simple firmware patch from Sony is IMPOSSIBLE. It won't happen and there's nothing that can be done about it. It will have to come from the developers side in order for this to get fixed.

His last post goes against what I've read as he states the PS3 does indeed have a hardware scaler. Though he says what I have been saying and getting the games to run at a different reoslution via software will cause performance issues.

I have to wonder why Sony wouldn't allow the use of a scaler for games. Trying to prevent developers from rendering games at lower resoultions and then using the scaler to make up for it?

I have the Toshiba 65H82...will the 720p games downconvert to 480p?

I know that i can toggle between 720p and 108i and the 1080i looks better tahn 720p .but the 720pimage isn't terrible at all!!

I'm about to purchase either the PS3 or the XBOX 360 ...if the PS3 wont look GREAT at the 720p setting on my set then..THERES NO WAY I'M SPENDING $700.00 on this gaming machine!

I have the Toshiba 65H82...will the 720p games downconvert to 480p?

I know that i can toggle between 720p and 108i and the 1080i looks better tahn 720p .but the 720pimage isn't terrible at all!!

I'm about to purchase either the PS3 or the XBOX 360 ...if the PS3 wont look GREAT at the 720p setting on my set then..THERES NO WAY I'M SPENDING $700.00 on this gaming machine!
Let me clear this up. If you have a display that can only display 1080i and lacks an internal scaler to convert 720P material to 1080i then 720P games will be downconverted to 480P. If your TV only displays 1080i and has a built-in scaler then games like RFOM will be scaled to 1080i. If your set supports both 1080i and 720P you will have no issue.

Let me clear this up. If you have a display that can only display 1080i and lacks an internal scaler to convert 720P material to 1080i then 720P games will be downconverted to 480P. If your TV only displays 1080i and has a built-in scaler then games like RFOM will be scaled to 1080i. If your set supports both 1080i and 720P you will have no issue.


Jules??Will the PS3 display correctley with my 720p Sanyo Z3 with both the HDMI connection & Component??

Jules??Will the PS3 display correctley with my 720p Sanyo Z3 with both the HDMI connection & Component??
No issue on a Sharp 720P display. RFOM, COD3, and Marvel all work.

On the BD movies side of things they are output at 1080i and the display scale the image to 720P.

Well i guess I'll have to use my Z3 if I want to play PS3 HD games!

WRONG.

http://ps3.ign.com/articles/746/746492p2.html




It can and will affect PQ on some 720p HDTV's. Besides, even if you do own one of the HDTV's that convert 1080i to 720p. Why would you want the TV doing the extra processing of the picture. Its not going to look like it could.


To SteroMadMan and others who knew what they were talking about, I appologize. I was the one who didn't know what he was talking about (at least partially). I do not have a display which would give me either of those problems and I had read everywhere that it was only a problem that would affect games that render at 720p.
Still, if I understand things correctly if your display accepts a 1080i signal and does a decent job of down converting it to 720p there should be no problem with Blu-ray playback.

These are serious problems and I hope that Sony fixes them as soon as possible.
But on my display I am quite pleased with the performance of the PS3.

The confusion here is the HDTV term has been coopted to refer to interconnects.

An HDTV/ATSC television as the term originally meant must accept all 24 ATSC formats, which includes 720p *and* 1080i.

However HDTV as it applies to interconnects really has no requirements because that is not something the FCC governs. The marketing people have decided to use a term that really has no official requirements to refer to the capabilities of the interconnect between source and display, so in that sense the interconnects can just accept one or the other.

In fact, your TV can only accept 480p on component and still be considered HDTV as long as the internal ATSC tuner accepted 720p, 1080i, and the rest of the 24 ATSC formats. It can also have native pixel resolution of 320x200 and still be considered HDTV as long as the internal ATSC tuner can accept the appropriate formats.

Yep - that is one of the lessons Europe learned from watching the US HD experience.

Over here there are two standards - one very widely known, one currently less so, which are accompanied by industry standard logos and accreditation/licensing.

1. "HD Ready".
This is a display standard. It mandates nothing about tuners or reception, but it DOES mandate display resolution (a minimum of 720 lines phsyically resolvable vertically - but with no horizontal resolution limits), AND interconnect standards (1080/50i, 1080/60i, 720/50p, 720/60p, 576/50p, 480/50p via both HDMI or DVI + HDCP AND Analogue Component (though this may now be optional - not sure - and can be implemented via non-RCA phono connectors) and I believe 480/60i and 576/50i - though these may only need to be supported via legacy SD connections)

2. "HDTV" (Slightly confusing - but makes sense when accompanied by the logo)
This is a receiver standard - for both set top boxes and integrated TVs to ensure they receive and output/display HD.

So, does anyone know if this is fixed yet?
I own a Toshiba 57HDX82 and just bought a PS3, connected via component. I've updated the PS3's firmware to 1.32 a few days ago and will try out a NetFlix Superman BR disc tonight. Is there an easy way to know for user what my TV is actually displaying? 480P, 720P or 1080i?

Thanks, --T

Not fixed yet. There's a large system update scheduled for March.

So, does anyone know if this is fixed yet?
I own a Toshiba 57HDX82 and just bought a PS3, connected via component. I've updated the PS3's firmware to 1.32 a few days ago and will try out a NetFlix Superman BR disc tonight. Is there an easy way to know for user what my TV is actually displaying? 480P, 720P or 1080i?

Thanks, --T


If you hit the display on your TV it should tell you what your signal is... Most TV's do this.

It has become extremely popular lately to bash Sony but I find that most of those doing the bashing are completely out of touch with reality. Sony has made some mistakes but so have most of their competitors. I remember when the Xbox 360 launched (I was the first person I know of in my town to get one) and there was a literal barrage of negativity and bad press which I thought was completely unwarranted. I defended the 360 and Microsoft whenever the subject came up.

Now the PS3 has launched and many people feel the need to attack. But the fact of the matter is that Sony has done no worse with the launch of the PS3 than Microsoft did with the 360 (or Toshiba with the launch of the A1 for that matter). If you remember, the 360 was launched with a similar low quantity of consoles and people were complaining about shortages, there were the problems with defective units, disappointment with the lack of certain features (up-conversion for SD DVDs, inability to do downloads in the background, no HDMI, no HDDVD drive, etc.) and games which many people were claiming looked no better than current generation games. In fact, my 360 after a few hours displayed the "red ring of death" and I had to send it to Microsoft and wait a week for them to send me a new one. As an early adopter of consumer electronics tech I have come to expect a certain amount of problems like these. Such problems come with the territory and rare is the launch of a new product that is completely free of such problems. And the more complex the product is the more unlikely that it will be trouble free.

The unarguable fact is that the PS3 is probably one of the most complex pieces of tech that has ever been released to market--even more complex than the Xbox 360 and the problems that have been reported so far really are minor in the grander scheme of things. In fact, the PS3 is doing better in some regards than the 360 did at launch and we can all see that the Xbox 360 has moved beyond those problems with firmware fixes etc. The PS3 will likewise be improved over time and these issues which some people are making such a big deal about will be a distant memory.


Sorry, I completely disagree with most.

The PS3 is not that advanced. It has a stripped down single general purpose core power pc processor. 256MB of RAM. A semi-decent video card added at the last minute and lacks a dedicated scaler.

I just want the PS3 to work with IR remotes and output 720p for BD movies.

Jayselle I think you're in the same boat as Lagosian in terms of what you know about PS3.

Maybe you should hold off on commenting on it (have you owned one?)

The Cell processor is anything but a 'stripped down single general purpose PowerPC' processor, and you didn't even get the RAM amount correct.

I doubt there's any other piece of CE equipment on the market today that could handle dual 40mbps AVC streams the way PS3 iss able to, with computing resources to spare. And this is an ability that will only improve as time goes on.

A semi-decent video card added at the last minute.
Last minute? Nvidia got on board back in 2003.

my 6 year old sony hdtv ready set would accept 720p but convert it to 1080i.

to me this is a bigger problem than just sony.

no company should have put out a tv that does not accept 480i,480p,720p,1080i. even 6 years ago some things were in that format.

just because sony did not adress a problem that should have never existed does not make them the devil.

I will admit that sony proably should have relized that there was an issue with 720 on some sets and brands but the manufactures of those tv's are very much to blame as well.

Sorry, I completely disagree with most.

It has a stripped down single general purpose core power pc processor. 256MB of RAM. A semi-decent video card added at the last minute and lacks a dedicated scaler.

The CBEA PPE is derived from work done in the late 1990s on high-speed POWER-based designs (ie. guTS), not PowerPC. It uses a NUMA memory topology, 256 is local to each processor, but 512MiB is globally accessible to either IC albeit at differential access times. The 7xxx series GPU wasn't as tacked-on as you make it seem; and you're wrong on the issue of a scaler(s) being present.

my 6 year old sony hdtv ready set would accept 720p but convert it to 1080i.

to me this is a bigger problem than just sony.

no company should have put out a tv that does not accept 480i,480p,720p,1080i. even 6 years ago some things were in that format.

just because sony did not adress a problem that should have never existed does not make them the devil.

I will admit that sony proably should have relized that there was an issue with 720 on some sets and brands but the manufactures of those tv's are very much to blame as well.
Without trying to sound like a smart alec, I'm not sure what this has to do with the original post. Since the PS3 does not output BD content at 720p native, then unless your display is 1080p native, your asking it (your display) to do some extra work it probably hadn't planned on. For me, my projector which is 720p native, handles that input signal better than anything else. The PS3 picture I get at 1080i, is noticeably softer. Much like setting the resolution on my HD-A2 to output 1080i instead of 720p. Perhaps I just don't understand what your saying.

my 6 year old sony hdtv ready set would accept 720p but convert it to 1080i.

to me this is a bigger problem than just sony.

no company should have put out a tv that does not accept 480i,480p,720p,1080i. even 6 years ago some things were in that format.

just because sony did not adress a problem that should have never existed does not make them the devil.

I will admit that sony proably should have relized that there was an issue with 720 on some sets and brands but the manufactures of those tv's are very much to blame as well.

Don't blame TV manufacturers of the older sets. I have an SXRD now; but five years ago I purchased my first HD TV. It was a Mitsubishi RPTV. It did not accept 720p and I could have cared less. Reason is that it had no HD tuner (like basically all others at the time). Depended upon a STB to convert OTA, satellite, or cable signals. All the STB's provided the required conversion of 720p to 1080i or 480p. So it made sense at the time.

It wasn't until TV's started to include their own HD digital tuners (i.e., then possible that there would be no STB) that there was a requirement to receive both 720p and 1080i.