Like many others such motoman and SOWK, I have black crush after updating with fw 2.0 on my RCA - I did not have black crush with the original fw 1.0.
Im using a monster HDMI-DVI converter with my original 2-year old DVI-D cable, because the first HDMI-DVI cable I bought didn't work at all to my JVC RPTV DVI input.
I'm wondering IF some of you with HDMI-DVI hookups, who don't have black crush, may be using a different type of converter cable/adapter than I am. If your picture is not changed after the fw 2.0 upgrade, what cable and/or converter are you using?
Of course, if all of you with HDMI-DVI hookups have black crush issues, then it truly is a firmware 2.0 caused problem. I'm tired of uping the brightness and lowering the contrast to compensate for black crush, I'm willing to look at other possible solutions.
Thanks in advance for the response guys, this forum is the best.

OK, first: Whatever you are experiencing has NOTHING to do physically with cable or converter. Any cable or cable/converter combo which works in the sense that it gives you image, will give you EXACTLY this same image. Personally I have never had problems with either DVD or HDMI cables, although I had on occasion problems with analog cables (both audio and video), and I was in the audio/video/TV business for many years.
Now, to the next step: so called "black crush" is generally caused by incorrect gamma, and it is NOT possible to eliminate it by adjusting B and C, even though you can make the image look subjectively "better". If you CAN make appropriate adjustments (like you are mentioning), can you stick to them? Do you use multiple sources on single DVI input, so then you have to make adjustment each time you switch? Or does your TV have only one memory for ALL inputs? That would be real bummer, but most have at least one memory PER input. Well. if you can, than use something like DVE Calibration Disk to set B/C and just leave it at that. Even if in your settings you don't see "BTB" signal (NOTHING TO DO WITH BLACK CRUSH!), you can still set the levels correctly, it's just little more difficult, and little less accurate. By the way, calibration is ESSENTIAL! You will never experience full potential of HD-DVD without it. I wouldn't recommend full ISFing your TV, it's expensive, but certainly you can do a lot yourself...
Just as general explanation: to understand the whole issue better you have to keep in mind that both DVI and HDMI are INTELIGENT connections. You also have to distinguish between physical connectors and communications protocols and setting running on them. Case in point: I have A1 hooked-up to LumagenHDP Video Processor, physically it's A1(HDMI) -> Lumagen(DVI) connection, BUT Lumagen has adjustable settings which let user set-up DVI input so it "LOOKS" to source (in this case A1) as HDMI "target", so it sort of tricks A1 to use different video settings, in this case avoiding all the problems with color space, levels etc.
By the way, just to make things more complicated, there are different implementations of DVI on different pieces of equipment, generally some of them "VIDEO" (usually on consumer level video gear) and PC mostly for Computer Monitors and such. Those differences create all the confusion, because depending on individual combination, some people experience problems and some don't, even though they all have seemingly this same HDMI->DVI connection!
Did I confuse you enough? :)
By the way, Lumagen WOULD solve a lot of problems for you, but it is rather expensive solution, at about $1500.00 MSRP at the minimum, about 1k used. :(

Kris

Thanks for the info. Unfortunately I have only one setting of brightness, contrast, etc., so I have to set it at a compromise setting for all 5 inputs: DVHS, HD-DVD, etc. I still am puzzeled why one HDMI-DVI cable doesn't work and a converter does.
But I think my near-future includes a new 60+" HDTV with multiple HDMI 1.3 inputs. I also am planning to get the new HD-DVD Digital Video Essentials due out next month. My RPTV was calibrated by a tech., and was terrific on all inputs until fw 2.0 darkened the (HD-DVD) picture. Like most of you, I'm looking forward to fw 2.1. If 2.1 doesn't fix it, I may have to look at either the HD-XA2 or maybe even a blu-ray (sony, not samsung). Thanks again for the detailed help.

I dont have DVI to directly respond to this problem but I do have one of the AVS members who is an ISF calibrator coming out to my house today. He is familar with HD DVD and I can ask him today and see what he says.

Like many others such motoman and SOWK, I have black crush after updating with fw 2.0 on my RCA - I did not have black crush with the original fw 1.0.
Im using a monster HDMI-DVI converter with my original 2-year old DVI-D cable, because the first HDMI-DVI cable I bought didn't work at all to my JVC RPTV DVI input.
I'm wondering IF some of you with HDMI-DVI hookups, who don't have black crush, may be using a different type of converter cable/adapter than I am. If your picture is not changed after the fw 2.0 upgrade, what cable and/or converter are you using?
Of course, if all of you with HDMI-DVI hookups have black crush issues, then it truly is a firmware 2.0 caused problem. I'm tired of uping the brightness and lowering the contrast to compensate for black crush, I'm willing to look at other possible solutions.
Thanks in advance for the response guys, this forum is the best.

2.0 definitely has a black level problem if your display requests RGB. Displays that request YCbCr have not had a black level problem. DVI is RGB only so it will have the problem. With most displays you can just alter brightness to correct for this, but shared inputs will be a problem.

I have a 65" RPTV w/component only.

When I installed 2.0, my pic became darker (IMO) and now it states at the bottom of the screen and lasts for about 2 minutes and then disappears:

"Check connections or power. The connections for RGBHV or YPrPb maybe invalid."

What the heck does that mean???

By the way, nothing happens to the pic, it plays fine.

Will I have this problem? I am getting an A1 but I am using Hdmi-Dvi-Hdmi, simply because I had dvi run through my ceiling when I originally had a benq projector.

Will I have this problem? I am getting an A1 but I am using Hdmi-Dvi-Hdmi, simply because I had dvi run through my ceiling when I originally had a benq projector. Cables don't matter, they are passive. If you have a HDMI or DVI switch, you'll just have to see what happens. :) If your display has HDMI input you "should" be ok (with a direct connection).

larry

I dont get black crush with my Optoma Projector. Looks like it accepts YCbCr coming in not RGB which as was mentioned helps.

I have a 65" RPTV w/component only.

When I installed 2.0, my pic became darker (IMO) and now it states at the bottom of the screen and lasts for about 2 minutes and then disappears:

"Check connections or power. The connections for RGBHV or YPrPb maybe invalid."

What the heck does that mean???

By the way, nothing happens to the pic, it plays fine.That's a TV issue. The component video timings or voltages may be slightly out of spec with what the TV expects.

larry

What the hell is "black crush"?

It's an inability of display (for whatever reason) to produce distinct levels of gray in response to video signal levels representing those values, effectively lumping shadow details of the image into uniform black or semi-black mass. Subjectively it produces effect of dark image, but since it is often consequence of incorrect low level gamma, cranking-up brightness, even though it makes image brighter overall, does not bring-up significant amount of detail in the shadows.

I don't have this issue on my XA1 using 2.0. I use a monoprice M1-DA to HDMI cable for my Infocus 333.
Cheers

V1.0 and V1.2 allowed those ending up with RGB (not YCbCr) to remain at video levels.

V1.4 and V2.0 provides RGB at PC levels thus giving the impression of "black crush" if you don't compensate by changing the display settings.

This impacts most DVI displays and even some HDMI displays if the EDID negotiation ends up telling the A1 to send RGB instead of YCbCr.

It is possible to utilize YCbCr over a DVI connection but this seems to be very uncommon. My Lumagen scaler can do it and before V2.0 I was utilizing YCbCr without a problem with the A1. V2.0 "broke" the EDID functionality however and now I can only get 422 YCbCr with HD DVD and SD DVD forces RGB at PC levels.

Small correction, cpcat. Component video is YCbCr in the digtial domain and YPbPr when analog. Too many abbreviations to keep straight. :)

larry

Subjectively it produces effect of dark image, but since it is often consequence of incorrect low level gamma, ...So how does one correct the "incorrect low level gamma"? Is professional calibration needed?

...giving the impression (emphasis mine) of "black crush"...

Thanks for emphasizing "impression" :) ! I think your explanation is far more concise than mine... :confused: As you of course noticed, concept of "black crush" is probably one of most misunderstood here, and it adds to total confusion when people pick up the word they just learned, and use it wily nilly...
I tried to clarify this issue number of time, with limited success...
I think it's worth stating one more time: IF YOUR CONFIGURATION GIVES YOU PC LEVEL SIGNAL (INSTEAD OF VIDEO), IT DOES NOT MEAN YOU HAVE BLACK CRUSH, AND YOUR PQ IS DEGRADED IN ANY WAY!!! You need to adjust your display to compensate for it, which is inconvenience, but if you have multiple input memories available, it's one time job. As I stated before "real" black crush is something else altogether, and CANNOT be eliminated by simple brightness adjustment.

As for Lumagen: I use HDP and I love it dearly, also for its 11 point gamma correction, which I find indispensable, speciallly with CRT FP (Marquee 8000, partially modified). By the way, if you didn't, install latest firmware, it will let you set different input settings (RGB vs Component 422) for A and B memories of given input, making running A1 a lot easier.

Kris

So how does one correct the "incorrect low level gamma"? Is professional calibration needed?

Good question... and as most of them, it doesn't have simple answer :) .
There is number of factors involved, two important ones being:
1. Your perception of quality - are you willing to make an effort and/or spend money?
2. Quality and cost of your display: Does it make sense to spend several hundred dollars to calibrate it?
If you are DIYer, first of all, get DVE (HD-DVD version is coming to the market at 28th, I think), do basic calibration. If you haven't done it before, you WILL be surprised at the improvement, I am sure.
If you think you need more, again: If you are DIYer, you can buy equipment (hardware + software, anywhere from $300.00 up) and fiddle with it yourself, it's not THAT difficult... On the oter hand, you can hire pro, again for anywhere from $300.00, and be done with it... Good pro calibration is hard to beat, adn or expensive display it certainly makes sense. Just research who you are dealing with, including their experience with particular display technology.

Have fun,

Kris

Small correction, cpcat. Component video is YCbCr in the digtial domain and YPbPr when analog. Too many abbreviations to keep straight. :)

larry
Maybe we should stick to: NON-RGB? :D

Kris

I dont get black crush with my Optoma Projector. Looks like it accepts YCbCr coming in not RGB which as was mentioned helps.
Are you sure because I didn't think DVI could pass YCbCr?

I don't have BC with my HD10K's DVI input but I do have a cheat. I send the HDMI YCbCr to my iScan VP50 and it converts to DVI RGB with no BC.

Good question... and as most of them, it doesn't have simple answer :) .
There is number of factors involved, two important ones being:
1. Your perception of quality - are you willing to make an effort and/or spend money?
2. Quality and cost of your display: Does it make sense to spend several hundred dollars to calibrate it?
If you are DIYer, first of all, get DVE (HD-DVD version is coming to the market at 28th, I think), do basic calibration. If you haven't done it before, you WILL be surprised at the improvement, I am sure.
If you think you need more, again: If you are DIYer, you can buy equipment (hardware + software, anywhere from $300.00 up) and fiddle with it yourself, it's not THAT difficult... On the oter hand, you can hire pro, again for anywhere from $300.00, and be done with it... Good pro calibration is hard to beat, adn or expensive display it certainly makes sense. Just research who you are dealing with, including their experience with particular display technology.

Have fun,

KrisThanks, but I was referring specifically to whether a pro is needed (or pro equipment, if DIY) to correct the problem of black crush or incorrect gamma, not about the benefits of pro calibration in general. I've done the Avia thing, and now black crush is the only thing I have a problem with.

Are you sure because I didn't think DVI could pass YCbCr? The "spec" says RGB only. DVI uses the same underlying transport as HDMI so you can send anything you want as long as both ends are "in agreement". I have a DVD player with DVI output that can send YCbCr.

larry

Thanks, but I was referring specifically to whether a pro is needed (or pro equipment, if DIY) to correct the problem of black crush or incorrect gamma, not about the benefits of pro calibration in general. I've done the Avia thing, and now black crush is the only thing I have a problem with.

Well, I think I answered it... Of course you are past DVE already, so now, as I stated before, YOU have to decide if you feel confident and comfortable enough to do it yourself (gave you some idea how much you would have to spend at minimum for equipment), or you just want it to be done, and enjoy results... Nobody but you can answer this question...

Kris

Small correction, cpcat. Component video is YCbCr in the digtial domain and YPbPr when analog. Too many abbreviations to keep straight. :)

larry

Yes you are correct, sorry. :o

I'll edit.

You need to adjust your display to compensate for it, which is inconvenience, but if you have multiple input memories available, it's one time job. As I stated before "real" black crush is something else altogether, and CANNOT be eliminated by simple brightness adjustment.



With my set (Pioneer Elite 630HD with DVI) if I bring up the DVE test screen with the pluge with the gray scale bars shown I can adjust my picture (brightness) control all the way out and I still cannot bring in the darkest outermost bars. I run out of picture control before I can make things right.

If I use the same disc same TV with my Oppo 971 hooked up via DVI it adjusts correctly and right in the middle of the TV's picture controls.

Jim

Best discussion of this issue I have seen. Congrats to all involved.

I also don't have the issue with an Infocus projector going through the M1 which is said to be DVI on the inside.

With my set (Pioneer Elite 630HD with DVI) if I bring up the DVE test screen with the pluge with the gray scale bars shown I can adjust my picture (brightness) control all the way out and I still cannot bring in the darkest outermost bars. I run out of picture control before I can make things right.

Jim

Check to see if there is a "PC" vs. "video" setting or maybe a "high" vs. "low" setting in your display's setup menu for the DVI input.

I definitely concur, that's GOOD idea! Also, I noticed, you were talking about pluge pattern... Did you go through Brightness and Contrast set-up patterns before looking at pluge? As for Brightness, you most likely will NOT see BTB bar, but it doesn't mean the pattern is useless, in fact, DVE narration instructs you how to handle adjustment in case like this. Do also Contrast adj.; There is possibility, since those adjustments (Br. and Contrast) DO affect each other, your problem MAY be consequence of incorrectly set Contrast level too...

EDIT: Just wanted to add: In my experience, the necessary adjustment we were talking about SHOULD be within range of typical adjustments available to consumer, if it isn't I would say it's indicative of other problems wit given configuration.

Kris

Thanks, but I was referring specifically to whether a pro is needed (or pro equipment, if DIY) to correct the problem of black crush or incorrect gamma, not about the benefits of pro calibration in general. I've done the Avia thing, and now black crush is the only thing I have a problem with.

Getting gamma right can be a tricky thing. You need a light meter with good sensitivity, test patterns and a calculation tool to determine what is happening with your gamma curve. Once you have those you can begin to understand how your display is functioning and start to fine tune the gamma performance. However, these tools will only get you in the ballpark of the correct settings with respect to gamma.

The final adjustment must be made by eye looking at known images. This is the hardest part because you need to know the correct look to do it. The reason this is necessary is that the region between 0 to 10 percent is the most critical for determining the look of the image and all the measuring in the world is not going to give you as much information as a reference image. Basically, if it does not look right it is not right and if it does you are done.

Did you go through Brightness and Contrast set-up patterns before looking at pluge? As for Brightness, you most likely will NOT see BTB bar, but it doesn't mean the pattern is useless, in fact, DVE narration instructs you how to handle adjustment in case like this. Do also Contrast adj.; There is possibility, since those adjustments (Br. and Contrast) DO affect each other, your problem MAY be consequence of incorrectly set Contrast level too...

Kris

I've adjusted brightness and contrast every which way you can think of and no matter what I try my blacks look like a black blob on program material. Like I said with the Oppo it adjusts and displays things correctly. My only assumption then would be it's in the HD-A1. I never had this problem before installing the 2.0 firmware.

On a unrelated note my Pioneer set has started displaying the dreaded X30 series streaking green lines again. Before it was red lines. This is due to a Pioneer manufacturing or design flaw that has resurfaced after numerous attempts by Pioneer to fix it. I've contacted Pioneer about this and hopefully thay will do the right thing with this POS and refund my money and I can get something that works. If that happens I can hopefully get something with HDMI and solve two problems.

Off of my soap box now and back to our regular discussion. :D

Jim

O S***! I didn't even know about anything like that going on with Pioneer... If your display was functioning properly, I would say, based on what we know till now: "get it calibrated" and be done with it. I can't in good conscious advice non-professional to go into service menus, where you can screw your set royally + you would need both sensor and software (which even for non-pro version would run you several hundred dollars). As it is, you are probably right: get refund and different set, than see if your basic calibration will be sufficient. Who knows. maybe there is something else wrong with your current set? I have never heard anybody running out of adjustment range in similar situation...

Kris

^^ Yeah I can't tell you how sick I felt when I saw those lines again. There was even a class action suit against Pioneer for this problem. I honestly don't think Pioneer will do anything about it. They may try and throw some more parts at it and mask the problem for a little while longer again. All I know is I'll give em an ear full if they ever call me back. I've seen where thay have offered some people a replacement Pioneer Plasma set if you pay the difference. It would depend on how much difference they are talking about. I would prefer a refund of some amount and be done with them.

Anyway not to take away from the problem at hand. I don't think it's a set related problem when the Oppo can be adjusted within the factory settings. All settings with the Oppo and like 3 or 4 away from default 0 where the HD-A1 I adjust it all the way to the end of the adjustment (25 I believe) and I still can't bring in black details. Seem logical ?

Jim

That sucks big time! And I always regarded Pioneer as high quality...
What I had in mind was: Maybe range of adjustments is abnormally narrow? Doesn't look like tough... When you look at pluge pattern and crank-up brightness, do you get to the point that there are no blacks at all, only gray? If you do, and you still can't get details resolved in the shadows, it is gamma problem, and as Jeff said above (and he is MASTER EXPERT, believe me, I am just lowly amateur comparing to him), it is NOT easy to adjust...

Kris

My Mitsubishi WD2000 has one DVI input which is shared by my DVD-3910, XA1, and PS3. The PS3 apparently is fixed to 'video' levels, while the Toshiba is apparently fixed to 'PC' levels. Unfortunately the WD2000 only has one memory per input, else I could just save each devices setup. The WD2000 can be set to accept YCbCr but the PS3 put out a strangely tinted image even though I set it's output to YCbCr. I guess I'll have to get a new projector or an HDMI scaler/switcher with contrast and brightness adjustments per input. :mad:

i'd just like to add that on both of my IN72 and IN76 projectors the display sees the signal as REC709 (i can also select REC601). Selecting RGB or Video RGB at the display gives me a green overcasted picture. calibrating my display DOES NOT give me back blacks and shadow detail. PERIOD.

component yes, (DRAG)

HDMI via M1 will allow me to select RGB on the display and the picture is AWESOME (AT 480P!) this is only with DDC disabled on M1 port. so you can thank most of this to hdcp.

yes, BTB/WTW do not matter (sort of), but black crush over DVI with some displays DOES exist and it's a total bummer. especially for those who've invested in a new HD display (with HDMI i'd add) and an HDMI receiver for losless audio formats.

agreed, there's a misconception surrounding BTB/WTW, etc. but for those who are truly having the problem with blacks and shadow detail no tweaks are going to get it back to where it is INTENDED to be.

i seriously can't believe that Toshiba can't simply allow the user to force colorspace output. i fail to see the complexity in enabling that option, but then again, i don't build them, nor do i work for toshiba. i'm very disappointed to see these issues follow along with the 2nd generation players and i won't be buying any more of their players until i either, A. move and buy new displays, or B. they fix the problems with dvi.