Update: 2-9-07 - I just re-checked using FW 1.51.

I ran some objective tests on the PS3 today, my results are below. I have included Panasonic, Samsung and Toshiba results as well. I only looked at the HDMI to HDMI scenario.

I fed the output of the PS3 (and other players) into a DVDO VP50 and then into the Marantz VP11S1. I looked at both the 1080p and 1080i outputs.


HDMI Output Format
PS3
R'G'B'
2-7-07: Y'CbCr

Panasonic DMP-BD10
Y’CbCr 4:4:4

Toshiba HD-A1
Y’CbCr 4:2:2

Samsung BD-P1000
Y’CbCr 4:4:4

Pixel Cropping:
PS3
Left: 0
Top: 0
Right: 0
Bottom: 0
Comments: This is perfect behavior. You actually get all 1920x1080 pixels.

Panasonic DMP-BD10
Left: 0
Top: 0
Right: 0
Bottom: 0
Comments: This is perfect behavior. You actually get all 1920x1080 pixels.

Toshiba HD-A1
Left: 0
Top: 0
Right: 0
Bottom: 0
Comments: This is perfect behavior. You actually get all 1920x1080 pixels.

Samsung BD-P1000
Left: 8
Top: 2
Right: 1
Bottom: 0
Comments: As you can tell, the Samsung is not able to provide a true 1920x1080 active image. You are only getting 1911x1078 of real picture.

Dynamic Range – HDMI to HDMI
PS3
2-7-07: Still clips even when using Y'CbCr
Above White – Fail – Clips
Below Black – Fail – Clips

Panasonic DMP-BD10
Above White – Fail – Clips
Below Black – Fail – Clips
Comments: The player has built-in picture controls. If you lower contrast down to -4 through -7, it will no longer clip. However, you are compressing the dynamic range. Steps are introduced, which show up as contouring. If you adjust brightness, you can make below black appear. If you do this, you are actually raising the black level of the player. I suspect this clipping may be caused by the bug in the Silicon Image 9030 HDMI transmitter. If they were to output Y’CbCr 4:2:2, it may fix the problem. I recommend you do not change the picture controls.

Toshiba HD-A1
Above White – Pass
Below Black – Pass

Samsung BD-P1000
Above White – Pass
Below Black – Pass

Luma Resolution
I looked at both horizontal and vertical resolution out to Nyquist. All four players were fine in this regard. There was no apparent roll-off.

Chroma Resolution
PS3
The horizontal Nyquist burst was rolled-off. It was not gone like the BD-10, but not as good as the Samsung and Toshiba.

Panasonic DMP-BD10
The horizontal Nyquist burst was pretty much gray. Something in the player must be filtering out this high resolution information. Vertical was fine.

Toshiba HD-A1
Both horizontal and vertical produced the full resolution out to Nyquist.

Samsung BD-P1000
There was a loss of vertical resolution at Nyquist. I suspect this is caused by the filtering in the Cortez (Genesis/Faroudja) chip.

Chroma Bug
PS3
ICP: This player does not have a filter to reduce the ICP artifact.
2-2: Pass – This player does not suffer from 2-2 chroma bug.
2-3: Pass – This player does not suffer from 2-3 chroma bug.

Comments: The upsampling it not high quality, though it is correct. You can see some steps in the chroma. The BD-10 looked better, when it did not have CUE.

2-7-07: The steps in chroma are now gone, not sure which update corrected this, but chroma upsampling is more or less perfect.

Panasonic DMP-BD10
ICP: This player does not have a filter to reduce the ICP artifact.
2-2: Pass – This player does not suffer from 2-2 chroma bug.
2-3: Pass – This player does not suffer from 2-3 chroma bug.

*1.02 FW update - I am not sure what happened, but it now has CUE. I am going to try and locate a 1.0 player just to double check my original results.
2-2: Fail – This player suffers from 2-2 chroma bug.
2-3: Fail – This player suffers from 2-3 chroma bug.

Toshiba HD-A1
ICP: This player does not have a filter to reduce the ICP artifact.
2-2: Fail – This player suffers from the 2-2 chroma bug.
2-3: Fail – This player suffers from the 2-3 chroma bug.

Samsung BD-P1000
ICP: This player does include a filter to reduce the ICP artifact. Sadly it is present on both 1080i and 1080p. If a filter is included, it should only exist for the 1080p output.
2-2: Fail – This player suffers from the 2-2 chroma bug.
2-3: Fail – This player suffers from the 2-3 chroma bug.

Deinterlacing
The PS3 does not appear to be able to output 1080p when the source is encoded as 1080i. It changes the output resolution back to 1080i while 1080i content is playing. The Panasonic is using the AVC2510 while the Samsung is using the Cortez. Neither player can deinterlace 2-2, but both support 2-3 deinterlacing.

If you have the DVDO VP50, Anthem D2 or the Marantz VP11S1, I highly recommend you use the 1080i output of these players. It will do a better job creating the 1080p image than the players will.

Color Space Conversion
PS3
2-7-07: Had not tested this before
I verified that R'G'B' output is done as 709 on HD, which is correct. My test was HDMI to HDMI. (PS3 -> VP50)

Now that you have run OBJECTIVE tests, which I for one appreciate, what is your SUBJECTIVE opinion of the PS3 as a BD player, both on its own and compared to the other BD players available?

My interest is personal. I have a PS3 on the way and I am returning a Samsung. based on numbers alone, it appears I am trading one set of shortcomings for some different ones?

Now that you have run OBJECTIVE tests, which I for one appreciate, what is your SUBJECTIVE opinion of the PS3 as a BD player, both on its own and compared to the other BD players available?

My interest is personal. I have a PS3 on the way and I am returning a Samsung. based on numbers alone, it appears I am trading one set of shortcomings for some different ones?

From the test it looks like the PS3 is the best out of the Panasonic and Samsung.
The Panasonic and PS3 test results were exact except for:

Chroma Resolution
PS3
The horizontal Nyquist burst was rolled-off. It was not gone like the BD-10, but not as good as the Samsung and Toshiba.

Panasonic DMP-BD10
The horizontal Nyquist burst was pretty much gray. Something in the player must be filtering out this high resolution information. Vertical was fine.

The Samsung has the filter problem and also suffers from 2-2 and 2-3 chroma
bug. I guess this would line up with the majority of the reviews saying the PS3 blu-ray playback was better than the Samsung and on par with the Panasonic. I have the philips BD player and I am very happy with it, so if the picture is as good as the phillips or better than I will keep the PS3.

Yeah, I read all that too.

Objective measurements are instructive to a degree. I am interested in Stacey's subjective opinion of the PS3 specifically as a Blu-ray player. In other words, how do these measurements translate into real world performance?

I was planning on putting the PS3 in my mini theater and the BD-10 in the main theater. Given the results, I will swap them. The PS3 is faster in terms of disc access, etc... I also like the bluetooth control. My gear is in a back room and IR to that room sucks. I was able to use the remote (controller at the moment) in the theater while the PS3 was in the rack w/o any issues.

The PS3 is a lot louder than I was expecting. I don't own an Xbox 360, so I can't compare, but it is louder than everything else in my system, except the projector. I used to think my TiVo's were loud, now they are drowned out. :)

The chroma bug pretty much kills chroma resolution over 9 Mhz, or Nquist / 2. This translates into fine chroma detail. If you compare Corpse Bride on the PS3 to the Samsung or Toshiba, you will see a perceived increase in saturation on the PS3.

If you are watching B&W content, then the PS3 will look identical to the BD-10. It looks a bit sharper than the Samsung on MPEG2 and the same on AVC and VC-1.

The VP50 did have a slightly more difficult time performing IVT on the PS3 vs. the BD-10. I have seen this with SD DVD players too. For example, the VP50 performs better IVT from an SDI RP82 vs. an HDMI Oppo 970.

Interesting. Sounds like I made a good choice. ;)

I was planning on putting the PS3 in my mini theater and the BD-10 in the main theater. Given the results, I will swap them. The PS3 is faster in terms of disc access, etc... I also like the bluetooth control. My gear is in a back room and IR to that room sucks. I was able to use the remote (controller at the moment) in the theater while the PS3 was in the rack w/o any issues.

The PS3 is a lot louder than I was expecting. I don't own an Xbox 360, so I can't compare, but it is louder than everything else in my system, except the projector. I used to think my TiVo's were loud, now they are drowned out. :)

The chroma bug pretty much kills chroma resolution over 9 Mhz, or Nquist / 2. This translates into fine chroma detail. If you compare Corpse Bride on the PS3 to the Samsung or Toshiba, you will see a perceived increase in saturation on the PS3.

If you are watching B&W content, then the PS3 will look identical to the BD-10. It looks a bit sharper than the Samsung on MPEG2 and the same on AVC and VC-1.

The VP50 did have a slightly more difficult time performing IVT on the PS3 vs. the BD-10. I have seen this with SD DVD players too. For example, the VP50 performs better IVT from an SDI RP82 vs. an HDMI Oppo 970.

That is interesting about the noise because every review I have read said the PS3 was virtually silent when playing blu-ray, but your saying its drowning out your TIVO :eek: The only differences in the reviews were from a heat standpoint some saying its warm and others saying its very hot! I will be really disappointed if the PS3 throws a better pic than the phillips but I can't use it because of the noise. :( I was wondering what your thoughts about the future upgrades for the PS3. Do you feel it can be made to be an even better player with firmware upgrades in the future from Sony? Thanks for the review.

The PS3 can definitely be made into a better BD player as time goes on; for decoding the Cell has virtually limitless power, and thus anytime a better decode algorithm is developed for it, it can just be bundled in with whatever firmware update and - presto! - better BD playback.

As for noise, my system is near-silent, but I may have a different reference point for what silence means than sspears has (well, obviously). If you're actually watching a movie though and the PS3 is moree than five feet away, I couldn't possibly imagine how one could hear it.

Thanks for the great post and wealth of information!

I was planning on putting the PS3 in my mini theater and the BD-10 in the main theater. Given the results, I will swap them. The PS3 is faster in terms of disc access, etc... I also like the bluetooth control. My gear is in a back room and IR to that room sucks. I was able to use the remote (controller at the moment) in the theater while the PS3 was in the rack w/o any issues.

The PS3 is a lot louder than I was expecting. I don't own an Xbox 360, so I can't compare, but it is louder than everything else in my system, except the projector. I used to think my TiVo's were loud, now they are drowned out. :)

The chroma bug pretty much kills chroma resolution over 9 Mhz, or Nquist / 2. This translates into fine chroma detail. If you compare Corpse Bride on the PS3 to the Samsung or Toshiba, you will see a perceived increase in saturation on the PS3.

If you are watching B&W content, then the PS3 will look identical to the BD-10. It looks a bit sharper than the Samsung on MPEG2 and the same on AVC and VC-1.

The VP50 did have a slightly more difficult time performing IVT on the PS3 vs. the BD-10. I have seen this with SD DVD players too. For example, the VP50 performs better IVT from an SDI RP82 vs. an HDMI Oppo 970.


Hmmm, interesting observations. My PS3 is silent during BD playback. Wonder if you got a buggy unit?

The only time I can hear the fan is during video game play and it is still very quiet. I have to turn down the volume on the game to zero to hear it.

When playing a BD, even after turning volume to zero the PS3 is not making an audible noise from 10 feet away. The only way to hear it then is to go put your head next to it.

Thanks for the indepth information SSpears. I'm nine feet away from my PS3, and noise is not an issue for me at all. It does get hot, but no issues with overheating. I've watched three BD's so far with no glitches to report at all. The PS3 was running for about 14 hours straight today between movies and some gaming, and I had no problems at all. I'm pretty pleased with the PS3 so far.

Were the Samsung measurements made with or without the new 1.0 firmware?

I have looked at all three Samsung FWs and they all produce the same results with my VC-1 test patterns.

I need to update my previous recommendation. Set the PS3 to output 1080p and also select 1080i. The 1080p is not created by using a deinterlacing chip like the Samsung and Panasonic. It just does a 2-3 frame repeat of the 24p pattern. This means it will never drop out of film mode.

For those using a Ruby, you can compare the stair case scene on MI3. It loses lock on the Ruby due to its poor IVT. The Pearl is better in this regard. The high frequency vertical detail trips it up their bad edit detector (and faroudas) and this produces moire on the steps. The PS3 never loses lock, so the moire is minimal.

As far as PS3 noise, I was sitting on the floor doing something next to the rack when I realized how loud it was. I might have been 2' away. It is all relative. I have heard many people say how silent their display is only to be let down on how noisy it really is. My first CRT was a Dwin, which had no fans. That was silent. All else is noisy. :) The VP11S1 is pretty damn loud relative to the Ruby.

Yeah, your comment about it being loud doesn't seem to fit with what the majority of us are experiencing with the PS3. The PS3 is very quiet with Blu-ray playback. Much, much quieter than the Xbox 360.

Your objective measurements do seem to coincide with what we are seeing with our eyes.
Great Blu-ray player!

Another note. I thought I would be clever and try and force the PS3 to stay in 1080p when the source was 1080i. I removed 720p and 1080i as output options. You can't remove 480p. When it hit the 1080i content, it set the output to 480p.

Another test was to set 1080i and 720p. When I played a disc, it set the output to 720p instead of 1080i. very odd. It rankes order of resolution as: 480p, 1080i, 720p and 1080p.

The only time I can hear the fan is during video game play

The PS3 was running for about 14 hours straight today between movies and some gaming...

It plays games too!?

;)

Stacey,
Thanks very much for posting your findings......very useful for all of us.

Art

Yeah, I read all that too.

Objective measurements are instructive to a degree. I am interested in Stacey's subjective opinion of the PS3 specifically as a Blu-ray player. In other words, how do these measurements translate into real world performance?
On that note, I think that many AVS forum members would really benefit from Stacey or Kris someday doing a ranking of their objective measurements into how they translate into the subjective real world viewing experience.

For instance, would one consider the existence of the Chroma Bug to be far more detrimental to the typical viewer’s experience than say Dynamic range, or vice versa?, would you place Chroma Bug at 2 on a scale of importance in regards to 8 for minor pixel cropping………..or would they seem of equal importance to most folk ?

People here have a good handle on how important noise, bootup time, etc. is to them but may not have the techo savy to decipher all the objective measurements.

So, comments like this are truly appreciated :) …………..
“I was planning on putting the PS3 in my mini theater and the BD-10 in the main theater. Given the results, I will swap them.”

Not to mention the fact that it seems someone is living the good life up there in Sammamish. :D

I think PS3 is loud too, not to the xbox360 level but it's louder than most DVD players. I think it's all relative, some people say Pearl/Ruby projector is slient quiet but I find them to be noisy.

My impression was that the PS3 ranks resolution as: 1080p, 1080i, 720p, and 480p. It will down res but not up res to the highest that the source material, the player, & the display can all agree on.

It just does a 2-3 frame repeat of the 24p pattern. This means it will never drop out of film mode.

When the source is 1080i60 video or film with flag, what will PS3 do? It couldn't deinterlace it to 1080p60 and have to output as 1080i60 or 480p60?

When the source is 1080i60 video or film with flag, what will PS3 do?

The output of the PS3 changes to 1080i60. My cadence (IVT) and ICP tests are encoded this way.

Another test was to set 1080i and 720p. When I played a disc, it set the output to 720p instead of 1080i. very odd. It rankes order of resolution as: 480p, 1080i, 720p and 1080p.
In my testing, I find it ranks 720p above 1080i only for games. For Blu-ray, it switches to 1080i (I am set to 720p and 1080i).

Stacey,
Thanks very much for posting your findings......very useful for all of us.

Art

As another who plans on using the PS3 as their first BD player, I strongly second this sentiment! :)

My interest is personal. I have a PS3 on the way and I am returning a Samsung.

Robert, just out of curiosity, what made you return the Samsung? You seemed to give it fairly high marks when you reviewed it a few weeks ago.

Loud/silent is relative as is hot/warm. IMO, when the PS3 has been running for hours esp. after playing games it does get loud. When the unit cools down i.e. surfing the internet from the dash for 10-15 miutes the fan steps down and the unit is quiet. If you have the PS3 in a fairly tight space and will be using it for movie marathons be aware that the fan will most likely be running at full speed and thus it will be loud.

I wouldn't say the unit gets hot, as to me hot means you can't touch or hold something. The ps3 never get to that point and stays much cooler than a comcast cable box. It does get warm though and blows out warm to hot air. Again the air would never burn you, but I know to some it's more than warm.

What does it do with SD DVD's? Upscale?

Robert, just out of curiosity, what made you return the Samsung? You seemed to give it fairly high marks when you reviewed it a few weeks ago.

Pretty simple, really. I wanted a better player but was not willing to spend the extra money for the Panasonic or Pioneer. When my choices were among the dedicated players, at $799, I considered the Samsung the best value for my circumstances (having to buy two formats). Make no mistake, I am still satisfied with the performance of the Samsung. However, early reports of the PS3 being a bit better on BD performance got me to looking into that.

The 20 GB PS3 had dropped to below $900 on Ebay. A few were selling between $800 and $850 by last Friday. I decided that if I could get one for no more than $750, I'd pocket a bit over $100 by returning the Samsung and still wind up with a better BD player. I was time constrained, though. I only have until the 4th of December to return the Samsung, so I had to make a decision. I decided to go for the PS3 and was able to get one for my budgeted price.

Hell, who knows, I might even want to play a game someday. ;)

Finaly, someone doing well defined tests and reporting results in a readable format. I guess now we can figure how teh PS3 deals with video scaling for several different situations and, if necessary, create a list of requests for improvement to Sony. It's a programable unit, so some scaling and de-interlacing might be added by software...(I want to see it doing 1080i deinterlacing to 1080p, as an example, as well as downscaling/upscaling everything to one set output resolution - 720p for my current projector - 1080i for CRTs, etc...)

Allan

What does it do with SD DVD's? Upscale?

Outputs 480p only. Actually I find it to be excellent quality with sd dvd via hdmi. There are 2, 3 step noise filters that can be defeated. I've replaced my sd dvd player in favor of the ps3. An amazing machine for the price.

Even the 60GB version PS3's are going for less than $900 on Ebay now. I pity the fools who were paying $2500.00!

Another note. I thought I would be clever and try and force the PS3 to stay in 1080p when the source was 1080i. I removed 720p and 1080i as output options. You can't remove 480p. When it hit the 1080i content, it set the output to 480p.

Another test was to set 1080i and 720p. When I played a disc, it set the output to 720p instead of 1080i. very odd. It rankes order of resolution as: 480p, 1080i, 720p and 1080p.

How many 1080i Blu-ray discs are out there? I looked at 10 random BR titles and they were all 1080p. Do you find the 1080i content only on games?

Legends of Jazz, and I would imagine other such concert videos, are in 1080i.

I have a stupid question

It seams some people are having better luck with the PS3 if they use the Sony branded
High Bandwidth HDMI version 1.3 cable vs. a reg HDMI cable.
Would this have made any difference in the objective testing?

Would this have made any difference in the objective testing?

No. You get a clean signal, one with dropouts or no signal at all based on the cable.

No. You get a clean signal, one with dropouts or no signal at all based on the cable.
Yup. The funny thing is that I used the HDMI cable that came with my HD DVD player, and I received a couple of audio/video dropouts during Blu-Ray playback. I haven't had the problem ever since I used a Belkin PureAV cable. At least I hope it was the cable that caused this. One concern is that the dropouts didn't occur with the cable when I was sending 720p/7.1 LPCM streams through it for games.

As for the PS3 as a Blu-Ray player, I laugh at all those posters who were so adamant in their view that the PS3 will be a poor quality player.

I have a stupid question

It seams some people are having better luck with the PS3 if they use the Sony branded
High Bandwidth HDMI version 1.3 cable vs. a reg HDMI cable.
Would this have made any difference in the objective testing?
monoprice cable with no issues

sspears, kris: will you consider putting these results into a "HiDef player Benchmarks" and put them in secrets ? (or as a start for a more complete "benchmarks")

monoprice cable with no issues

Same here. Monoprice gets you your money's worth for sure.

If the source material is from the movie industry, then the disc will likely be 1080p. If the source is from tv, it will likely be 1080i or 720p.

Another test was to set 1080i and 720p. When I played a disc, it set the output to 720p instead of 1080i. very odd. It rankes order of resolution as: 480p, 1080i, 720p and 1080p.

Can you elaborate on this please? Was the content of this test 1080i or 1080p (Blu-Ray movie). I've got a JVC 1080p HDTV but it's last years model that doesn't have a 1080p input. Since my HDTV can not accept a 1080p signal, does this mean the PS3 is going to output 720p instead of 1080i?

I have a stupid question

It seams some people are having better luck with the PS3 if they use the Sony branded
High Bandwidth HDMI version 1.3 cable vs. a reg HDMI cable.
Would this have made any difference in the objective testing?

With the digital cables, it either works or doesn't work, unlike analog which drops off with distance. For short runs (12' or less), almost any cable will work, so get cheap ones.

Finaly, someone doing well defined tests and reporting results in a readable format. I guess now we can figure how teh PS3 deals with video scaling for several different situations and, if necessary, create a list of requests for improvement to Sony. It's a programable unit, so some scaling and de-interlacing might be added by software...(I want to see it doing 1080i deinterlacing to 1080p, as an example, as well as downscaling/upscaling everything to one set output resolution - 720p for my current projector - 1080i for CRTs, etc...)

Allan

Only reason for a requirement to deinterlace from 1080i to 1080p would be if you have a 1080p set. If so, it deinterlaces 1080i. Only reason that isn't adequate is if it is one of the sets that doesn't deinterlace properly (e.g., last year's 1080p Mitsubishi's). If your set deinterlaces properly, you don't need the capability in the PS3.

My display doesn't take 1080p. It accepts 1080i, 720p, and other usual stuff. Can I still get BR moives in high-def from the PS3 or should I wait until this issue is fixed?

My .02..

Got my PS3 Saturday.... When playing BR's, it was as loud as a Toshiba A1 in my rack... not terrible, but noticable..... It is really cool how fast it is.. definitely way faster than the Panny.

On two side notes, after one day, I already had to reformat the machine once, as it would lock up when trying to change some music playback settings and force a reset.... the reformat fixed that, but I got a cannot play media error when I inserted an SACD to try it out... cancelled out, went ot music menu, and all three layers of the SACD show up a seperate discs.. COOL :) Also, and completely off topic, I put in the SACD of Roxy Music "Avalon".. I usually hate visualizers, but if you put music on, start play and push square once.. it was like a real time version of the planet flyover at the end of "2001"... It is a must see!!!!

All in all, a pretty kludgy gaming machine compared to the 360, as doesn't have the instant fun factor of the Wii, but a "neat" BR player and a great bargain....

Sorry for the OT comments...

My display doesn't take 1080p. It accepts 1080i, 720p, and other usual stuff. Can I still get BR moives in high-def from the PS3 or should I wait until this issue is fixed?

You can get BR movies 1080i over HDMI.

My display doesn't take 1080p. It accepts 1080i, 720p, and other usual stuff. Can I still get BR moives in high-def from the PS3 or should I wait until this issue is fixed?
Yes, you can watch BR movies in HD.

Dynamic Range – HDMI to HDMI
PS3
Above White – Fail – Clips
Below Black – Fail – Clips

Thanks much for the input, sspears, much appreciated.

How noticeable is the above during normal movie playback?

I'll be interested to see how the Pioneer compares....

I'll pick up a 60 GB PS3 when I can get one for $600.00 ...

In the meantime, I'll be eyeing up the Pioneer. I ruled out the Panny and other players out so far...

What form of 1080p24 is output via the Pioneer? I also heard the Pioneer can output 480i over HDMI.... These features would be very appealing as I could output the Pioneer player to the upcoming, soon to be released Lumagen Radiance. If the Pioneer tests well and has these features, I'll pick one up, otherwise I'll live with the PS3 until second generation players arrive late in 2007...

I assume the difference in sending 1080p24 from the Pioneer to the Lumagen to convert to 1080p48 (for the Ruby) would be no judder. Any other advantages of using 1080p24 instead of the 1080i60 output from a player?

Pretty simple, really. I wanted a better player but was not willing to spend the extra money for the Panasonic or Pioneer. When my choices were among the dedicated players, at $799, I considered the Samsung the best value for my circumstances (having to buy two formats). Make no mistake, I am still satisfied with the performance of the Samsung. However, early reports of the PS3 being a bit better on BD performance got me to looking into that.

The 20 GB PS3 had dropped to below $900 on Ebay. A few were selling between $800 and $850 by last Friday. I decided that if I could get one for no more than $750, I'd pocket a bit over $100 by returning the Samsung and still wind up with a better BD player. I was time constrained, though. I only have until the 4th of December to return the Samsung, so I had to make a decision. I decided to go for the PS3 and was able to get one for my budgeted price.

Hell, who knows, I might even want to play a game someday. ;)

I may go for a PS3 myself when they become more widely available(and can be had for the actual MSRP).

Just out of curiousity... Do you think any of these companies evaluate for BTB and WTW as well as other quality factors? You would think they would, but then again, if they did evaluate these quality issues, you would think they would fix them... How many issues are dependent on the chip, such as the Sigma designs chip... Maybe the manufacturer is stuck due to limitations and shortcomings of the chip...

SSpears, thank you for your objective testing. This is the sort of thing this forum was created for.

I'd like to add a subjective note, for anyone considering the jump:

I am a proud owner of the 60GB Playstation 3. It is connected to my Yamaha RX-V2600 via HDMI, which is connected to my Mitsubishi WD-62628 DLP...

This is one awesome combination. I have used both the Samsung and the Panasonic players, and find the PS3 superior to the Samsung, and at least equal to the Panasonic. IMO, the PS3 even tops the Panny because of its fast load times, and because I'm a gamer ; )

While I'm sure y'all have all read horror stories about overheating and fan noise, I'll agree that it's completely subjective. I'm in the "this thing is really quiet" camp, but I do own an Xbox 360. In comparison, the PS3 is much quieter. My Playstation has been nothing but a joy. I am quite pleased, and feel fortunate to own one.

The setup is simple, the playback is amazing. I have thrown SACDs, DVDs, games, and several Blu-ray films - all are well played. The Playstation 3 is worth its weight in gold. A wonderful buy, if you're able to find one ; )

While I'm sure y'all have all read horror stories about overheating and fan noise, I'll agree that it's completely subjective. I'm in the "this thing is really quiet" camp, but I do own an Xbox 360. In comparison, the PS3 is much quieter. My Playstation has been nothing but a joy. I am quite pleased, and feel fortunate to own one...

I noticed today that it was silent on start up and about 30 minutes after listening to an SACD with the visualizer going, the fans were blowing full blast, at least as loud and warm as my 360... and the PS3 is sitting in the open on top of my rack in an open room... It also said the disc was unreadable on the second attempt at playback... As I said, mine has been a little buggy...

But I am sure if I have major problems, Sony will take care of it.. and it is, as you said, worth it's weight in gold, and a steal if you are a gamer and HT enthusiast... It will be interesting to see if they get the advanced codecs all worked out, and it's SACD performance isn't too bad either.

As a note to future purchasers... if you don't need the card reader, but are interested in the 60gig because of the WiFi, note that most games REQUIRE you use Ethernet for gaming anyways, so the WiFi becomes useless... it makes the 20gig that much more attractive.. also, let's hope they can get us connected to our PC's for streaming music and pictures.. that would be killer!

Another test was to set 1080i and 720p. When I played a disc, it set the output to 720p instead of 1080i. very odd. It rankes order of resolution as: 480p, 1080i, 720p and 1080p.


Can you elaborate on this please? Was the content of this test 1080i or 1080p (Blu-Ray movie). I've got a JVC 1080p HDTV but it's last years model that doesn't have a 1080p input. Since my HDTV can not accept a 1080p signal, does this mean the PS3 is going to output 720p instead of 1080i?

I guess I can answer my own question now since my PS3 arrived a day early. Some people may find the following information useful. This pertains to BD playback only. I do not yet have any games for the PS3.

My HDTV is a 61" JVC 61FH96 1080p LCoS. This is last years model that is a 1080p HDTV but as with many other 1080p HDTV's last year (including the Sony SXRD RPTV) does not actually accept a 1080p input.

When initially setting up the PS3, it reports that my maximum resolution is 720p. This coincides with what Stacey says above. The PS3 tries to fix resolutions in the following order: 1080p, 720p, 1080i, 480p. So due to the fact that my HDTV can not take a 1080p input, it goes to the next resolution of 720p.

Here's where things get bad. If you do not notice this, when you play a BD disc, it will actually output it as 480p. My TV does not tell me what the resolution is that I'm viewing, but I can determine whether I'm getting a 480i/p signal or a 720p/1080i signal due to my aspect ratio choices. I get different choices depending on whether it's a HD signal or not.

Now, if I go into the options and tell the PS3 that my maximum resolution is 1080i, then the BD's play back fine. If I set it to 1080p my TV just blanks out (can't accept the signal).

Another thing that is frustrating is you can set each resolution your TV is capable of, but again it goes in the odd order listed above. You can not change the order or signals.

So basically if you have a 720p display and want to watch BD's in HD, you're going to have to tell the PS3 that your resolution is 1080i, not 720p. Otherwise it will be displayed at 480p.

If you have a 1080i display you're also going to have to tell the PS3 you have a 1080i display, otherwise it will send a 720p signal (assuming you can receive a 720p signal).

I'm assuming at this point as well that when I get a 720p game, I'm going to have to tell the PS3 I only have a 720p display, otherwise it's going to display it as 480p.

I noticed today that it was silent on start up and about 30 minutes after listening to an SACD with the visualizer going, the fans were blowing full blast, at least as loud and warm as my 360... and the PS3 is sitting in the open on top of my rack in an open room... It also said the disc was unreadable on the second attempt at playback... As I said, mine has been a little buggy...

But I am sure if I have major problems, Sony will take care of it.. and it is, as you said, worth it's weight in gold, and a steal if you are a gamer and HT enthusiast... It will be interesting to see if they get the advanced codecs all worked out, and it's SACD performance isn't too bad either.

As a note to future purchasers... if you don't need the card reader, but are interested in the 60gig because of the WiFi, note that most games REQUIRE you use Ethernet for gaming anyways, so the WiFi becomes useless... it makes the 20gig that much more attractive.. also, let's hope they can get us connected to our PC's for streaming music and pictures.. that would be killer!
Can play RFOM, COD3, and Marvel via wireless. What titles are you talking about?

Just out of curiousity... Do you think any of these companies evaluate for BTB and WTW as well as other quality factors? You would think they would, but then again, if they did evaluate these quality issues, you would think they would fix them... How many issues are dependent on the chip, such as the Sigma designs chip... Maybe the manufacturer is stuck due to limitations and shortcomings of the chip...


Very good questions...
We have several guys hangin' around AVS that know the answers to some of what you ask. ;)

I'd also like to add to my post above that if I select multiple resolutions for the PS3 (720p and 1080i) it will correctly go to 1080i during BD playback. But, in the PS3 menu's it goes to what it thinks is a better resolution, which is 720p. If I want to view 1080 on the menus too then I have to remove 720p entirely as a display option.

I'd also like to add to my post above that if I select multiple resolutions for the PS3 (720p and 1080i) it will correctly go to 1080i during BD playback. But, in the PS3 menu's it goes to what it thinks is a better resolution, which is 720p. If I want to view 1080 on the menus too then I have to remove 720p entirely as a display option.

I can confirm this. These "symptoms" are exactly the same on my setup. BD movies kick to 1080i, but the menus and games go to 720p.

off to the side a little bit...
very illuminating thread ......so i'm not eager to use a game controller for blu-ray and know that remotes are coming out... comments
i've read some of the interface issues arent too well thought out, for instance how relatively complicated it is to play different types of audio files.
would be cool to have a soa game system for nada on top of the blu-ray (and hold off my son from bugging me for the wii)
how difficult it is for the megaco's to avoid heavy channel conflict as they build new very expensive product areas

I can confirm this. These "symptoms" are exactly the same on my setup. BD movies kick to 1080i, but the menus and games go to 720p.
Can't you tell it what resolution you want via the setup menu? I.e. if you want 1080i for the menu select 1080i. I remember setting it to 720P for my brother's LCD.

Can't you tell it what resolution you want via the setup menu? I.e. if you want 1080i for the menu select 1080i. I remember setting it to 720P for my brother's LCD.

You can tell it what resolutions your television accepts. This is quite different from telling it what resolution to output.

The end user (at this time... could be fixed via firmware update) has no control over what the console actually outputs. The problem stands that if one selects 1080i, then the system will boot and load the XMB (system menu) in 1080i. The instant that person selects a game (or other source) that is 720p, then the system will down-res to 480p - because you don't have 720p selected as an available output.

If one selects 720p as an available output option, then the system defaults to 720p, regardless of what other selections they've made. The system will properly switch to 1080i for Blu-ray playback. It will also switch to 1080i for games that support 1080p (or i) resolution, such as NBA '07.

I know this sounds confusing, so I have one more trick up my sleeve... Here's how my PS3 is configured:

Available resoluitons (the resolutions I've selected as being available) - 1080i, 720p, 480p.

Actual output:

XMB (stands for Cross Media Bar - The system's main menu) - 720p
Motorstorm Demo - 720p
NBA '07 Demo - 1080i
Resistance: Fall of Man (full game) - 720p
Black Hawk Down trailer (downloaded content) - 1080i
Talladega Nights: The Ballad of Ricky Bobby - 1080i
X Men 3: The Last Stand - 1080i

For comparison, here's the actual output if I only select 1080i:

XMB - 1080i
Motorstorm Demo - 480p (looks like crap, too!)
NBA '07 - 1080i
Resistance: Fall of Man - 480p
Black Hawk Down trailer - 1080i
Talladega Nights: The Ballad of Ricky Bobby - 1080i
X Men 3: The Last Stand - 1080i

It simply won't upsample 720p content, so it down converts the signal instead. This is what you may have read about in other forum threads... People with older HDTVs that don't support 720p resolutions are pretty much screwed.

I understand. From efranzen's intial post he wanted the XMB in 1080i, not games, and I thought there was a seperate option for that. I haven't messed with the setup options since launch day. You also want 720P games to be output in 1080i, or at least 720P since your display supports that resolution, but the whole 720P over riding 1080i and then removing 720P causes downscaling, etc happens. I should've have quoted efranzen's post, but I was still mistaken as there isn't a seperate XMB resolution setting.

While not a solution to those that lack 720P capable displays, a simple ordering preference or individual resolution settings could help these annoying situations.

While not a solution to those that lack 720P capable displays, a simple ordering preference or individual resolution settings could help these annoying situations.

Yep, that's pretty much all they need to do (for those with displays that are capable of 720p and 1080i). Or at least change the default ordering to 1080p, 1080i, 720p, 480p.

I think the most important thing I was trying to point out in my earlier post is that if you have a 720p display, you MUST set your maximum resolution to 1080i or at least include both 720p and 1080i in the manual configuration setting. Otherwise, your BD's are going to get output at 480p.

Thanks a million for these tests. Makes me really glad I waited for the PS3 as my BD player. Now we just need better BTB and WTW and 1080/24p via updates. Having a software player with the Cell is a truly good thing.

How do we know the BTB and WTW can be 'fixed' via firware and not a limitation of the chip?

Also, one thing that COULD be fixed would be to allow output of 480i over HDMI... That would be great for those with external scalers that would handle the native 480i format from DVD.

I have only 1080p displays now. In fact, I have a 2560x1600 display I wish to use with the PS3... the Dell 30 inch monitor which is supposedly HDCP compliant.

Are most new games available in 1080p? A large part of the appeal of the PS3 was 1080p games... I am hearing that frame rates are not very good with 1080p... Can somebody elaborate? This would be very dissapointing....

I heard the Pioneer was not going to have HDMI 1.3... I wonder why since the Toshiba XA2 will have HDMI 1.3 and will be available in a few weeks...

While not a solution to those that lack 720P capable displays, a simple ordering preference or individual resolution settings could help these annoying situations.

I understand that you're asking for a simple solution, probably because the simple solution is easiest to ask for... ;)

But, instead of this half-assed work around, I'd rather Sony put the Cell to work and scale the content... All content, like the Xbox 360. If I select 1080i, everything gets output at 1080i (perhaps with the exception of PS1 & 2 titles...). They're touting this processor as the most powerful, most advanced processor ever created... Well, let's see it!

Are most new games available in 1080p? A large part of the appeal of the PS3 was 1080p games... I am hearing that frame rates are not very good with 1080p... Can somebody elaborate? This would be very dissapointing....

Sorry for the disappointment then Cowboy, but most games are 720p. Sony had MAJOR issues with frame rates and other resolution bugs. To make launch window, most games dropped to 720p. NBA '07 is a 1080p game. There may be others, but I am not sure of them... Anyone else want to chime in?

Thing is, and please don't take offense to this - 1080p is a crock. The game doesn't have to be 1080p for it to be gorgeous and enjoyable. Gears of War (for 360) is 1080i, but looks FANTASTIC on my 1080p display. Other games that are native 720p look great, too... As far as PS3 goes (so far, only my experience...) Resistance looks awesome. The shortcomings graphically have nothing to do with resolution, they have to do with the game just not being as impressive as other games. Some textures in Resistance aren't up to snuff... The asphalt and other ground surfaces look kind of crappy... But, some of the character models are absolutely awesome. A drawback though, is that characters (dead ones) flail around and look fake as hell when they're arm is sticking straight up into the air.

Well... Sorry for the rant. Long story short, don't be disappointed just because a bunch of games aren't 1080p. If you're really a gamer, then it's not about resolution. It's not about hard drive size. It's not about controller features or how fast a disc spins... It's about the games - which PS3 delivers.

How do we know the BTB and WTW can be 'fixed' via firware and not a limitation of the chip?

If you're referring to the Playstation 3, then we know it can be fixed because it's a software player. Every function of the Blu-ray drive is driven by software and firmware. Unlike stand-alone units that have dedicated Systems on their chips to control various functions... Everything Sony's Playstation does can be overwritten, if Sony chooses to do so.

Your assumptions are too black and white and too simple. The PS3 is basically software driven by the cell processor, however, there are still various chips present, probably related to the NVIDIA chipset which may limit various fixes. I do hope they can fix the BTB and WTW issue for one... as well as every other issue mentioned.

I do take offense to your conclusion with 1080p. Just because YOU do not have an issue doesn't mean other's dont. I play games on a 130 inch screen abnd it makes a HUGE difference. The bigger the display, the more resolution matters. Please keep your opinions as opinions and not stated as fact. 1920 x 1080 on a native 1080p display makes a huge difference. I sincerely hope the PS3 can achieve 60FPS at 1080p with all games. Otherwise this is a big issue for those with 1080p displays. People with 720p displays certainly are biased. 1080p is a big difference. I play computer games at 2056 x 1600 on a 30 inch Dell, so I know what I'm talking about. Poor little PS3 is hopefully suffering from poor programing. I hope that games run smoothly at 1080p soon. Otherwise long live COMPUTER GAMES!!!

Your assumptions are too black and white and too simple. The PS3 is basically software driven by the cell processor, however, there are still various chips present which may limit various fixes. I do hope they can fix the BTB and WTW issue for one... as well as every other issue mentioned.

I do take offense to your conclusion with 1080p. Just because YOU do not have an issue doesn't mean other's dont. I play games on a 130 inch screen abnd it makes a HUGE difference. The bigger the display, the more resolution matters. Please keep your opinions as opinions and not stated as fact. 1920 x 1080 on a native 1080p display makes a huge difference. I sincerely hope the PS3 can achieve 60FPS at 1080p with all games. Otherwise this is a big issue for those with 1080p displays. People with 720p displays certainly are biased. 1080p is a big difference. I play computer games at 2056 x 1600 on a 30 inch Dell, so I know what I'm talking about. Poor little PS3 is hopefully suffering from poor programing. I hope that games run smoothly at 1080p soon. Otherwise long live COMPUTER GAMES!!!

Alright...

I don't think it proper that you categorically state that game resolution is a "make or break" situation for this console. The information that you've now provided would have been better in one of your earlier posts, to support a statement as to why you want higher resolutions.

This thread is intended to be objective and informative. There are potentially lots of people reading here, who don't own uuber setups like you or I do. I'd wager that the majority of PS3 owners can't or won't have 1080p displays for some time.

I do think that your argument for a 1080p resolution across the board is perfectly valid, given your gaming setup. I simply wish that you hadn't flamed me because you had left out that info in your earlier posts.

I still stand by the statement though, that 1080p source material is not required. I game on several large 1080p displays. I have played my PS3 on my 110" screen with an image thrown by a Sony Pearl. Source material that isn't 1080p can still look fantastic, because both of my displays do a wonderful job of scaling - so ultimately everything I'm seeing is 1080p anyway.

Further, I stand by my statement that to a genuine gamer the only thing that really matters is the overall gameplay experience. Everything else - resolution included - is icing on the cake.

The PS3 hyped 1080p capable games for a long time. I've been running computer games at 1080p for well over a year now. And 1600x1200 (90% of the overall resolution of 1080p) for the past 3 years. If the PS3 could play games at 1080p smoothly, there would be no need to shoot red herrings out here. Sure I expect good games. I also expect to be able to run them at native 1080p resolution, if not now, then very soon. 1080p games was never supposed to be a problem with the PS3. Sony touted the PS3 as a 1080p capable gaming platform, period.

That this conversation is even taking place is indicative of the different technical strengths (or lack thereof) people have.

PS3 can play games at 1080p easily. Is there a question on that? But Health Nut you say you are a PC gamer; what PC games are you running at 1600x1200, and what video card are you using? Because you will not be running next years games at that resolution at the same framerates you are now.

And that's what it's all about. PS3 can run games at 1080p no problem; but it can't run the best, most graphically laden games at that resolution. You make a trade and a choice. Many a game will run at 720p this generation, because at that res the RSX will be able to do more with what is on screen. Every game on PS3 could be 1080p if Sony made that call. But that isn't what I want, or maybe even what you want to have happen. Let the developers choose what resolution and level of effects make their games come out truest to their vision.

I just put together a new system with a Quad Core, 2GB of Dominator memory, Dual 8800 GTX in SLI, etc.....

I think I'm fine...2560 x 1600 is not a problem... Loving it...

1920x1080p should be the developers target for PS3. You can always chose a LOWER resolution ayway, so yes they SHOULD target 1920 x 1080p...

I heard the Pioneer was not going to have HDMI 1.3... I wonder why since the Toshiba XA2 will have HDMI 1.3 and will be available in a few weeks...The Pioneer fell in the same boat as the G1 Toshiba's...lots of old design baggage. For Pioneer to switch HDMI chipsets at the last minute would entail massive QA re-testing and would ultimately slow things down. I for one would rather they deliver something that works instead of pulling a Samsung and dropping a new chip in place that ends up impacting the video pathway with unintended results (a la Cortez and the NR issue).

The G2 (G1.5) Toshiba's have the luxury of no real design baggage. It's a lot easier to manage a successful product delivery when you add new ingredients to the recipe when it's 50% done rather than when it's 95% done.

That this conversation is even taking place is indicative of the different technical strengths (or lack thereof) people have.

PS3 can play games at 1080p easily. Is there a question on that? But Health Nut you say you are a PC gamer; what PC games are you running at 1600x1200, and what video card are you using? Because you will not be running next years games at that resolution at the same framerates you are now.

And that's what it's all about. PS3 can run games at 1080p no problem; but it can't run the best, most graphically laden games at that resolution. You make a trade and a choice. Many a game will run at 720p this generation, because at that res the RSX will be able to do more with what is on screen. Every game on PS3 could be 1080p if Sony made that call. But that isn't what I want, or maybe even what you want to have happen. Let the developers choose what resolution and level of effects make their games come out truest to their vision.

"easily"??? You've been on B3D long enough to know better than this........

What do you think is gonna happen as games get more complex and rely on more GPU power? which is exactly where the bottleneck shifts to in high res btw......

I rather a game be done in 720P with high res textures, HDR+AA, AF and all the other bells and whistles than a "1080P" token game stripped down because you ran out of usable power.

Back on topic:
The PS3 seems to be an excellent player and I'll pick one up the moment I find one!

wait so if my only setting is 720P which is the tv i have, and i watch talladaga nights, it will be 420P

That's correct. You need to also tell the PS3 that your maximum resolution is 1080i. Then your television will do the conversion from 1080i to 720p (assuming it can do that conversion).

"easily"??? You've been on B3D long enough to know better than this........

What do you think is gonna happen as games get more complex and rely on more GPU power? which is exactly where the bottleneck shifts to in high res btw......

I rather a game be done in 720P with high res textures, HDR+AA, AF and all the other bells and whistles than a "1080P" token game stripped down because you ran out of usable power.

Back on topic:
The PS3 seems to be an excellent player and I'll pick one up the moment I find one!

C'mon Robert, don't sell me short. ;)

Like I said, it can run 1080p 'easily.'

I agree with you that more complex games will *not* run easily, and I accounted for that in my post. I just want it understood that 1080p is a software issue on these consoles, not a hardware issue. There will *always* be a game that can bring given hardware to a crawl, and one can't just say that arbitrarily - "but this should be able to do 1080p!"

Blast Factor is running at 1080p, Resistance is not. I think that's a case in point right there.

Like I said, Sony could make every game 1080p if they wanted - it is simply that those games would have less eye-candy than their 360 counterparts at that point. I don't want everything to be 1080p any more than you do. It's just I want it understood that if there were some other, more powerful chip inside PS3 things wouldn't be anny different; developers could *still* max it out at 720p - there would just be that many more effects on screen.

Just to make sure everyone understands what I'm trying to say, my 7600GS can also run 1080p easily. But it's not going to run any game from this year at that resolution with full effects and do anything more than crawl... the hardware stands still, the software demands ever increase.

I don't think RSX is anything special; it's just that expectations on 1080p are all relative.


@Health Nut: That's a nice system you've got there!

I don't think RSX is anything special; it's just that expectations on 1080p are all relative.

Amen.

bump

Sony touted the PS3 as a 1080p capable gaming platform, period.

And?

They've touted its network connectivity also... With networking features basically non-existent, I don't hear you griping about that?

The console is capable of 1080p output. There will be a push to develop games accordingly. There's no reason to come to this thread with your panties bunched up because every ounce of output isn't correlated into a 1080p signal.

Calm down, Dude, and come back to earth... Give it six months. Things will get better for the Playstation 3.

I understand that you're asking for a simple solution, probably because the simple solution is easiest to ask for... ;)

But, instead of this half-assed work around, I'd rather Sony put the Cell to work and scale the content... All content, like the Xbox 360. If I select 1080i, everything gets output at 1080i (perhaps with the exception of PS1 & 2 titles...). They're touting this processor as the most powerful, most advanced processor ever created... Well, let's see it!
I meant as an interim solution for those with capable TVs and hell I want those those features even if/when it can scale games. Yes, we all know what Sony was touting, but we know better.
Sorry for the disappointment then Cowboy, but most games are 720p. Sony had MAJOR issues with frame rates and other resolution bugs. To make launch window, most games dropped to 720p. NBA '07 is a 1080p game. There may be others, but I am not sure of them... Anyone else want to chime in?

Thing is, and please don't take offense to this - 1080p is a crock. The game doesn't have to be 1080p for it to be gorgeous and enjoyable. Gears of War (for 360) is 1080i, but looks FANTASTIC on my 1080p display. Other games that are native 720p look great, too... As far as PS3 goes (so far, only my experience...) Resistance looks awesome. The shortcomings graphically have nothing to do with resolution, they have to do with the game just not being as impressive as other games. Some textures in Resistance aren't up to snuff... The asphalt and other ground surfaces look kind of crappy... But, some of the character models are absolutely awesome. A drawback though, is that characters (dead ones) flail around and look fake as hell when they're arm is sticking straight up into the air.

Well... Sorry for the rant. Long story short, don't be disappointed just because a bunch of games aren't 1080p. If you're really a gamer, then it's not about resolution. It's not about hard drive size. It's not about controller features or how fast a disc spins... It's about the games - which PS3 delivers.
I agree. Developers need to focus on great gameplay at 720P. The PS3 can do 1080P for movies and that's fine, but games should be 720P, with better AA, filtering, textures, etc.

@Health Nut

I like the PS3 as much as the next guy, but Sony was a bit eagar when announcing the capabilities and over hyped the system. I don't see it as being a true 1080P gaming solution or at least at the levels I want. Maybe as devs get more time on the hardware, but right now 720P should be the focus. Also keep in mind that cross platform titles will typically look better for the system that is easier to develop for, which is the 360. So who knows if devs will ever really put in the effort to truly optimize those titles for the PS3.
http://www.1up.com/do/feature?cId=3155393
You'll notice, of course, these are ports, but if you look at Fight Night for the PS3 you can see more detail on the fighters. This shouldn't be surprising as EA had more time to optimize the game for the PS3 hardware than most of those other titles. This tells me that developers aren't going to really put forth much effort making optimizations and I feel that games for both systems will end looking pretty much the same. I can't blame the developers as that is alot of time and money to optimize for two consoles.

@originalprime; If you don't want to wait for Sony's networking in a future update play around with RedKawa Fileserver:
http://www.redkawa.com/fileserver/
Red Kawa File Server is a free file server developed by Red Kawa. It allows you to view and copy files from your computer (where the server running) to your PlayStation 3 over your wired or wireless computer network.


@sspears sorry for going OT. Great information and look forward to more of your results.

How do we know the BTB and WTW can be 'fixed' via firware and not a limitation of the chip?


My first question would be, what are BTB and WTW in an R'G'B' output situation?

Gary

@Health Nut, does this sound familar:
"All launch games will be running in 1080p at 120fps."
-Ken Kutaragi"

I like the PS3 as much as the next guy, but Sony was a bit eagar when announcing the capabilities and over hyped the system. I don't see it as being a true 1080P gaming solution or at least at the levels I want. Maybe as devs get more time on the hardware, but right now 720P should be the focus. Also keep in mind that cross platform titles will typically look better for the system that is easier to develop for, which is the 360. So who knows if devs will ever really put in the effort to truly optimize those titles for the PS3.
http://www.1up.com/do/feature?cId=3155393[/url]
.

Well, see now this is getting a little agitating though - let's not go from one extreme to the other. ;)

Kutaragi never said that PS3 games would be 1080p running at 120fps (let alone all launch games!); that's just a horrible misinterpretation of a presentation he gave last year with regard to the advancement of the A/V industry. It wasn't even related to gaming whatsoever.

Please don't quote 1Up, Gamespot, IGN, or any of those... because those people play games; they don't do technical. And they certainly are only capable of maximum sensationalization on any sort of translation from anything Japanese.

Multi-platform titles will look increasingly good on PS3 as the knowledgebase for Cell utilization expands and becomes increasingly turn-key to incorporate into game engines. It will take time. But the spillover effect from exclusive development into the multi-console will be there all the same at the end of the day.

As for the 120fps thing, it came up recently in the PS3 thread, though surprisingly not via the KK 'PS3 games @ 120fps' myth, so check out my post on the subject there:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8815311&&#post8815311

Originally posted by originalprime
NBA '07 is a 1080p game. There may be others, but I am not sure of them... Anyone else want to chime in?
Marvel:Ultimate Alliance is 1080P. I believe some reviews said there are slight frame rate issues, BUT it was ported from the 360 AND is a launch title. Personally, I have not noticed the frame rate issues yet, but I am not very far into the game.

Ridge Racer 7 is also 1080P.

Your assumptions are too black and white and too simple. The PS3 is basically software driven by the cell processor, however, there are still various chips present, probably related to the NVIDIA chipset which may limit various fixes. I do hope they can fix the BTB and WTW issue for one... as well as every other issue mentioned.

I do take offense to your conclusion with 1080p. Just because YOU do not have an issue doesn't mean other's dont. I play games on a 130 inch screen abnd it makes a HUGE difference. The bigger the display, the more resolution matters. Please keep your opinions as opinions and not stated as fact. 1920 x 1080 on a native 1080p display makes a huge difference. I sincerely hope the PS3 can achieve 60FPS at 1080p with all games. Otherwise this is a big issue for those with 1080p displays. People with 720p displays certainly are biased. 1080p is a big difference. I play computer games at 2056 x 1600 on a 30 inch Dell, so I know what I'm talking about. Poor little PS3 is hopefully suffering from poor programing. I hope that games run smoothly at 1080p soon. Otherwise long live COMPUTER GAMES!!!


You're going to have to wait until next gen for 1080p/60 to be common (and the 60 part probably won't even be common).

Sorry.

Well, see now this is getting a little agitating though - let's not go from one extreme to the other. ;)

Kutaragi never said that PS3 games would be 1080p running at 120fps (let alone all launch games!); that's just a horrible misinterpretation of a presentation he gave last year with regard to the advancement of the A/V industry. It wasn't even related to gaming whatsoever.

Please don't quote 1Up, Gamespot, IGN, or any of those... because those people play games; they don't do technical. And they certainly are only capable of maximum sensationalization on any sort of translation from anything Japanese.

Multi-platform titles will look increasingly good on PS3 as the knowledgebase for Cell utilization expands and becomes increasingly turn-key to incorporate into game engines. It will take time. But the spillover effect from exclusive development into the multi-console will be there all the same at the end of the day.

As for the 120fps thing, it came up recently in the PS3 thread, though surprisingly not via the KK 'PS3 games @ 120fps' myth, so check out my post on the subject there:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8815311&&#post8815311
I agree they are far from a tech site I just wanted you to see that before somebody brought it up. You know how things like that spread like wild fire on the internet. ;)

I understand titles will look better later in the system's life. You are trying to convince somebody that likes the PS3. The thing that many people disliked was the whole "next gen starts when we say it does" and looking at the games we've seen that the next gen has been here all along. I didn't buy in to the hype so I'm happy with the PS3, but many were expecting something leaps and bounds ahead of the 360. These people expected it from day one and thus don't like the give it time talk.

I do appreciate the clarification on that quote, it seems I was misinformed on another forum...go figure. I have deleted that quote from my previous post.

Enough taking sspears thread OT

Agreed. :)

If NBA '07 and Ridge Racer 7 are any indication of what smooth 1080p games will look like this generation, developers should run away from 1080p as fast as they can. Both the 360 and the PS3 have lots of 720p games that look so much better than those two, it really isn't even funny. Resolution is only one aspect of picture quality, and developing for a high-resolution just for the sake of resolution can really compromise image quality.

As far as firmware patching for the Blu-Ray player; fingers crossed. One would certainly hope that the system was designed in such a matter, but after the 1080i gaming fiasco and all, I'd say all bets are off.

You can't assume that 1080P with good frame rate will be impossible, by judging launch games.

Moving on....

Hi,

Forgive me because I only read parts of this thread.(ok, now I've read it all.) However, I just wanted to point out that I don't think it's fair to consider lack of Blacker then Black and Whiter then White a defect in picture quality. If the entire range of reference black to reference white is available then the output is perfect. I know how having blacker then black makes it easier to set black level but having output that conforms precisely to specifications is not a defect in my view but rather achievement.

-Brian

eg- It's not a bug,.. it's a feature :)

Hi,

Forgive me because I only read parts of this thread. However, I just wanted to point out that I don't think it's fair to consider lack of Blacker then Black and Whiter then White a defect in picture quality. If the entire range of reference black to reference white is available then the output is perfect. I know how having blacker then black makes it easier to set black level but having output that conforms precisely to specifications is not a defect in my view but rather achievement.

-Brian

eg- It's not a bug,.. it's a feature :)
Hmmm that's the first I've heard of that. Very interesting.

How many 1080i Blu-ray discs are out there? I looked at 10 random BR titles and they were all 1080p. Do you find the 1080i content only on games?

what about "A view from space"?

You can't assume that 1080P with good frame rate will be impossible, by judging launch games.

both the PS3 and 360 can't do 1920x1080 with full 60fps and AA and AF maxed out

its all about trade offs, more resolution with less AA and AF or less resolution with full AA and AF.

Guys c'mon, we've already done the gaming talk.

@WiFi, again it just depends on the game. I'm sure a Robotron remake could have 1080p, 60fps, max AA and max AF just fine. ;) So let's try not to speak in absolutes here about anything when we can help it...

It is of course always about trade-offs though.

And?

They've touted its network connectivity also... With networking features basically non-existent, I don't hear you griping about that?

The console is capable of 1080p output. There will be a push to develop games accordingly. There's no reason to come to this thread with your panties bunched up because every ounce of output isn't correlated into a 1080p signal.

Calm down, Dude, and come back to earth... Give it six months. Things will get better for the Playstation 3.
networking features? I think they touted online play, which they definetly delivered, as PS3 games have better online game modes than xbox game, for free too...

Now streaming for PC, etc, I am sure that it could be added in one of the future updates, same as it was with xbox... I personally love larger HD and ease of upgrades for PS3, so i would actually move my stuff to PS3 and not keep my pc running all the time for no reason. I can easily put my hd into the external usb tray and plug it into the PS3, it will work great.

networking features? I think they touted online play, which they definetly delivered, as PS3 games have better online game modes than xbox game, for free too...

Now streaming for PC, etc, I am sure that it could be added in one of the future updates, same as it was with xbox... I personally love larger HD and ease of upgrades for PS3, so i would actually move my stuff to PS3 and not keep my pc running all the time for no reason. I can easily put my hd into the external usb tray and plug it into the PS3, it will work great.
I'm not a mod, but no more game talk in this thread please. You can PM somebody if you have something to say. In fact I hope sspears ask for this thread to get cleaned up, my post included.

Wow, talk about a thread hi-jacking.

Getting back to the topic, I'd like to revist this.

On that note, I think that many AVS forum members would really benefit from Stacey or Kris someday doing a ranking of their objective measurements into how they translate into the subjective real world viewing experience.

For instance, would one consider the existence of the Chroma Bug to be far more detrimental to the typical viewer’s experience than say Dynamic range, or vice versa?, would you place Chroma Bug at 2 on a scale of importance in regards to 8 for minor pixel cropping………..or would they seem of equal importance to most folk ?

People here have a good handle on how important noise, bootup time, etc. is to them but may not have the techo savy to decipher all the objective measurements.

So, comments like this are truly appreciated :) …………..
“I was planning on putting the PS3 in my mini theater and the BD-10 in the main theater. Given the results, I will swap them.”

Not to mention the fact that it seems someone is living the good life up there in Sammamish. :D
This is one thing that would be valuable to me as well. Not just in this circumstance, but AV in general. If I need to pick the lesser of two evils due to budget or other limiting factors, it would be nice to know what the lesser evil actually is.

I was planning on putting the PS3 in my mini theater and the BD-10 in the main theater. Given the results, I will swap them. The PS3 is faster in terms of disc access, etc... I also like the bluetooth control. My gear is in a back room and IR to that room sucks. I was able to use the remote (controller at the moment) in the theater while the PS3 was in the rack w/o any issues.

The PS3 is a lot louder than I was expecting. I don't own an Xbox 360, so I can't compare, but it is louder than everything else in my system, except the projector. I used to think my TiVo's were loud, now they are drowned out. :)

The chroma bug pretty much kills chroma resolution over 9 Mhz, or Nquist / 2. This translates into fine chroma detail. If you compare Corpse Bride on the PS3 to the Samsung or Toshiba, you will see a perceived increase in saturation on the PS3.

If you are watching B&W content, then the PS3 will look identical to the BD-10. It looks a bit sharper than the Samsung on MPEG2 and the same on AVC and VC-1.

The VP50 did have a slightly more difficult time performing IVT on the PS3 vs. the BD-10. I have seen this with SD DVD players too. For example, the VP50 performs better IVT from an SDI RP82 vs. an HDMI Oppo 970.

Stacy: I hope you can obtain and test the Sony player and add the results to the list. I would particularily like to know how the PQ rates for the claimed 480i output
over HDMI thru your VP. Thanks

Hi,

Forgive me because I only read parts of this thread.(ok, now I've read it all.) However, I just wanted to point out that I don't think it's fair to consider lack of Blacker then Black and Whiter then White a defect in picture quality. If the entire range of reference black to reference white is available then the output is perfect. I know how having blacker then black makes it easier to set black level but having output that conforms precisely to specifications is not a defect in my view but rather achievement.

-Brian

eg- It's not a bug,.. it's a feature :)

You should be Bush's press secretary. :rolleyes:

"Clipping the video range: now a feature!" :(

Clipping out part of the range that's outside of specification... that's a feature.

If video is 16 to 235 or whatever it is and the PS3 outputs 16 to 235 then it isn't clipping anything that's supposed to be there in the first place.

And if any useful information is mastered into that space it's a mistake and proper calibration of the monitor would hide it anyway.

Right? ...

-Brian

Clipping out part of the range that's outside of specification... that's a feature.

BT.709 states luma is from 1-254. It lists ref black at 16 and ref white at 235, but the full range is 1-254.

And if any useful information is mastered into that space it's a mistake and proper calibration of the monitor would hide it anyway.

For below 16, yes, for above 235, no. Values above 235 are meant to be seen.

Stacy: I hope you can obtain and test the Sony player and add the results to the list.

Unable to test the Sony. It can't read BD-R/RE at this point. The insert in the box says this will come in a future update.

Unable to test the Sony. It can't read BD-R/RE at this point. That's one way to prevent objective measurements. :(

Please be sure to re-test the PS3 after the next firmware update with YCrCb output.

Sspears,

Thanks for the info. I had no idea that whiter then white is supposed to be seen. Guess it's just brighter, whiter, white :)

-Brian

off to the side a little bit...
very illuminating thread ......so i'm not eager to use a game controller for blu-ray and know that remotes are coming out... comments
i've read some of the interface issues arent too well thought out, for instance how relatively complicated it is to play different types of audio files.
would be cool to have a soa game system for nada on top of the blu-ray (and hold off my son from bugging me for the wii)
how difficult it is for the megaco's to avoid heavy channel conflict as they build new very expensive product areas

Try loading wav, MP3 and jpeg files from a portable usb hd or from the card readers into your PS3. Check out the speed the thumb nails display or how instant a song plays when you select or skip to the next song. Then check how fast the PS3 skips to the next or previous picture when you use the L1 or R1. Then try holding onto L1 or R1 and see the pictures flash pass. Oh and L2 and R2 rotates the picture clockwise or counter clockwise. Fantastic piece of machine. Seems even faster then my 3Ghz PC..... :-p

Oliver

BT.709 states luma is from 1-254. It lists ref black at 16 and ref white at 235, but the full range is 1-254.



For below 16, yes, for above 235, no. Values above 235 are meant to be seen.



Unable to test the Sony. It can't read BD-R/RE at this point. The insert in the box says this will come in a future update.

Stacy: Thanks for the timely response regarding the Sony tests. I am disappointed they can't be done now. I was hoping for that input before chosing between the Sony and the Pioneer.

Well,

I've had a while to reflect on the notion that black below 16 should be clipped if not by the source component at least by the display device in order to set black to the reference level while conversely 235 (or so) is the reference white point but values above white are meant to be seen. And,.. It just doesn't make very good sense to me.

My copy of Digital Video Essentials suggests that the extra "headroom" below black was designed with the response of analog display devices in mind because of the nature of thier response. Having the extra space there allowed you to setup an analog device such that it would come out of pure black and begin to display just at 16 or so.

Surely none of that needed to be considered in the age of HDMI which for the most part isn't designed with analog display devices in mind (at least mostly not with analog display devices in mind.)

So,.. Reference black is 16 and white is 235 but there's extra white above and beyond that so what's the point of reference white being 235? It seems quite "Spinal Tap" as in "But these go to 11." What should the reference white point mean if it's somewhere other then the top of the scale?

And if the connection is purely digital why not use the entire range from 0 to 255?

I can't say that I'm settled in my thoughts about this. I would still suggest that if a source device displays everything from reference black to reference white it's not to be faulted just for conforming to specs.

I surely don't mind if the blacker then black and whiter then white issue is addressed and "fixed" via some update but it's still a bit confusing and hopefully it's just me who's confused.

-Brian

Brian: the issue is twofold. First you're misreading what the specs say. The specs as Stacey point out clearly allocate all values from 1-254 for video. There are nominal points within this range which are targets for black and for white. You must be careful to distinguish between nominal reference white and peak white. Excursions slightly beyond these reference points happen for many reasons, some including the fuzzy black and white points in CRT systems which are the reference. If you have a hard clip right at white and at black, you can run into some problems, which is why all the video specs have some toeroom and headroom that exceed these nominal black and white points even in a digital world. Black and white are in reality a little bit more elusive than we might want them to be.

Thanks,

B

Thanks for the info. I had no idea that whiter then white is supposed to be seen. Guess it's just brighter, whiter, white :)I know Chris already covered it, but just wanted to add something. It is a little bit misleading when some of us use the term whiter-than-white (WTW) to describe encodings above 235. My understanding is that 235 shouldn't really be called, "White". It should be called, "Reference White" and video 254 should be called, "Peak White". Then it makes a lot more sense why things above 235 shouldn't just be clipped.

--Darin

does the brightness of a display have any influence on WTW? I'm still a little confused. Or is a color close but not quite true white considered reference white?

I know the BTB and WTW has been discussed on these forums before, ad nauseum. I don't seem to be able to find a link to any of those past threads. If anyone can find one of them, please post it here. Not only is it something that I'd like to re-read, but it seems like there are many others here that would be interested as well. It'll also help keep this on topic.

Note: I did attempt a search, but I don't know exactly what I'm looking for to narrow it down enough to find one of those definitive threads.
Thanks.

I know the BTB and WTW has been discussed on these forums before, ad nauseum. I don't seem to be able to find a link to any of those past threads. If anyone can find one of them, please post it here. Not only is it something that I'd like to re-read, but it seems like there are many others here that would be interested as well. It'll also help keep this on topic.

Note: I did attempt a search, but I don't know exactly what I'm looking for to narrow it down enough to find one of those definitive threads.
Thanks.

Try the link in my signature. ;)

There are also links in that thread to previous threads.

does the brightness of a display have any influence on WTW? I'm still a little confused. Or is a color close but not quite true white considered reference white?The Reference White is just video level 235 (in 8 bit space), which should correspond to 100 IRE. A display could have color skew, but if it is calibrated correctly to D65 across the whole range, then 90 IRE should have the same color mix as 100 IRE. But one would be considered a gray. A brighter display just has a brighter output for 100 IRE than another, and some of its grays can be brighter than what Reference White results in with another display. Not sure if that helps.

--Darin

Try the link in my signature. ;)

There are also links in that thread to previous threads.
That's the EXACT one I was looking for. I even remember my reaction the first time I read those posts by that tbrunet guy. What a great resource, thanks.

That's the EXACT one I was looking for. I even remember my reaction the first time I read those posts by that tbrunet guy. What a great resource, thanks.

I sure hope you mean the thread is the resource and not tbrunet's "contributions"! :eek: :p

A display could have color skew, but if it is calibrated correctly to D65 across the whole range, then 90 IRE should have the same color mix as 100 IRE.

I think tsb is using color is a loose sense ... like when people talk about black & white as colors.

Very useful thread for those of us who want to use the PS3 for Blu-ray movie playback primarily. I scored a 20GB PS3 off eBay for less than $700, so prices are definiely getting more reasonable. My Sammy player is now on eBay.

Here's a mini-FAQ I made for myself w/info from a couple of sources. Does all this sound right?

Will it decode the advanced audio codecs?
It will decode everything except DTS-HD. DTS-HD decoding is expected with a firmware update early next year. You must have a HDMI 1.1+ receiver to experience the new formats, since the PS3 doesn't have the hardware to support 5.1/7.1 analog output.

How about the 720p/1080i issue?
The 720p problem does not affect BD movie playback. For now, only games in 720p can be output as 720p; not 1080i. The PS3 does support 1080i for BD playback just fine.

What about Blu-ray movie disc playback?
If you want to play a movie with the PS3 unit already on, you insert the disc and wait for something to happen, except nothing happens. The issue is that, if already turned on, the machine does not automatically start the movie disc. Instead, the newly inserted BD-ROM appears as an option above the Video menu index. You have to manually select the BD-ROM by scrolling up to that spot, and then select it by pressing the X button on the controller. The movie disc is still not identified by name, only as a BD-ROM.

Can regular DVDs be upconverted to 720p/1080i?
No, not at the moment.

Can multichannel SACDs be played?
Yes.

Will an external hard drive connected via the USB port be recognized?
Yes, if hard drive is pre-formatted as FAT32.

Anyone tested the picture with component instead of HDMI/DVI to see if the black level is better that way?

I read this in another thread, but can't remember which one.

It was said that the PS3's lack of BTB and WTW was due to it outputting 16bit RGB via HDMI, FW 1.1. Sony has stated that they will be outputting 16bit YCbCr via HDMI in a future FW update and at that time it should support BTB and WTW.
* It's still not enough for TV and theater projectors that can display the original YCrCb stored in BD and DVD. For example the current PS3 player lacks gradation in brighter and darker parts of pictures when compared to Panasonic DMP-BD10. The reason why the internal processing is done in RGB is because RSX can't have 2 color spaces at the same time. Honda suspects they used RGB for the player because in the prototype design they planned to overlay XMB in RGB onto the picture of BD/DVD. In the final design XMB is not overlayed onto the player.

* Actually Kutaragi also ordered the development of the version with YCrCb internal processing at the final review. In the firmware version released in December it becomes possible for a user to choose RGB or YCrCb.

Originally posted by Brajesh
How about the 720p/1080i issue?
The 720p problem does not affect BD movie playback. For now, only games in 720p can be output as 720p; not 1080i. The PS3 does support 1080i for BD playback just fine.

On a side not, currently the PS3 does not output 720P for BD movie playback, only 1080i and 1080P. I wonder if this could be added in a firmware update?

On a side not, currently the PS3 does not output 720P for BD movie playback, only 1080i and 1080P. I wonder if this could be added in a firmware update?
via HDMI. I couldn't get it to outout BR movies at 720P via HDMI, but read a thread where another member was getting 720P on his 50" plasma with component. Searching around a bit more I have found this to be true.

Okay, so no 720p for games or movies it appears? Perhaps 720p can be output for 720p encoded material, not that I have any to test. All BDs are 1080p w/a few handful 1080i. Hopefully, Sony will issue a firmware to correct 720p out.

Okay, so no 720p for games or movies it appears? Perhaps 720p can be output for 720p encoded material, not that I have any to test. All BDs are 1080p w/a few handful 1080i. Hopefully, Sony will issue a firmware to correct 720p out.
perhaps, that's the case with games, i.e rendered at 720P->display at 720P.

Originally posted by Jules343
via HDMI. I couldn't get it to outout BR movies at 720P via HDMI, but read a thread where another member was getting 720P on his 50" plasma with component. Searching around a bit more I have found this to be true.
Really. I am using componant and the last time I checked it output 1080i. I have not checked since the 1.11 firmware update though.

Really. I am using componant and the last time I checked it output 1080i. I have not checked since the 1.11 firmware update though.
Let me try and find the thread on here I'll edit this post when I do.

In my testing, I find it ranks 720p above 1080i only for games. For Blu-ray, it switches to 1080i (I am set to 720p and 1080i).


This is what I read in the official PS3 as Blu-Ray player thread. It sort of makes sense with games and their high motion to prefer 720p to 1080i. I am disappointed that the PS3 will not output Blu-ray in 720p but only in 1080i as was discussed in that thread. I believe that they are working on it.

This is what I read in the official PS3 as Blu-Ray player thread. It sort of makes sense with games and their high motion to prefer 720p to 1080i. I am disappointed that the PS3 will not output Blu-ray in 720p but only in 1080i as was discussed in that thread. I believe that they are working on it.

They had better be working on it - real hard. Bummer. One can only hope the reviews for the player point this "issue" out. Not that it is significant or anything. I wonder how many AV reviewers for major publications read AVS? Actually, I would think that the reviewers have already been sent units. They must already be aware of certain limitations of the PS3. It will be interesting to see if they publish it.

nvm..

Okay, so no 720p for games or movies it appears? Perhaps 720p can be output for 720p encoded material, not that I have any to test. All BDs are 1080p w/a few handful 1080i. Hopefully, Sony will issue a firmware to correct 720p out.

Just movies... Games default to 720p if 1080p is not available. The problem is that if both 1080p and 720p are not available, then games kick to 480p instead of 1080i.

Question about BTB and WTW to experts. I understand that PS3 currently does internal processing in RGB space. My question is, is it possible for a display device to recognize this (or user to select an option) and display the content as such? I remember my Sharp aquos has one such option for interpreting black, but I don't know if that it will fully expand RGB, and I don't know if this option is available on HDMI input. Does anyone else have a display that can display RGB scale on HDMI? My logic is that in that case there will be no clipping. But if that is not possible, then it's a moot point. If it is possible, what will be the side effect?

[I would prefer if full 0-255 range is usable for games]

sspears, care to update your PS3 and test again?? Pretty please, even with a Cherry on top?

If your display accepts it, I find switching to 1080p mode better than 1080i for blu-ray playback on a 720p device. I read that if the display deinterlaces correctly there shouldn't be a difference between 1080i and 1080p, but on my HD1000 project I can definately notice a difference.

ps. I've only noticed this in the menus where there is a one pixel line that flickers, and maybe there is no difference in the movie itself but changing to 1080p makes the entire experience more consistent.

In regards to the 720p 1080i issue on the PS3:

I just hooked up my PS3 the other day to my Sony 50XBR1 SXRD via hdmi. I had the setup automatically choose my display settings which it selected 720p (First gen SXRD doesn't accept 1080p input). So I went back into the setup and checked 1080i instead so only 1080i and 480p are checked. I loaded up a Blu-ray movie (Talladega Nights) and hit the display button to see what was being output and as hoped it was 1080i. Then I loaded up Resistance, it gave me a warning saying it was optimal to run the game at 720p but i went ahead anyways. I hit the display button and it showed it as 1080i. So I'm not sure how some of you are saying that if 1080i is selected and you play a 720p game it will go down to 480p? Am I misreading something or maybe I overlooked something? And I haven't downloaded the new firmware from today as I'm at work.

Also, should I enable 720p as well? Will that look better for games than 1080i?
Answers are here: PlayStation Area (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?f=142)

PS3 Firmware 1.3 is now available (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9089130&&#post9089130)

They've also added the color space selection for the BD player... now you can choose YCrCb or RGB (it is buried in the settings menu). This is inline with the increased quality BD player firmware update that was talked about in that impress.
Automatic or Y Pb/Cb Pr/Cr does not display properly on my display (Sony SXRD 60XBR1). I get a strange solarization with bright images on black background (opening Sony logo on Taladega Nights). Switching back to RGB restores proper PQ.

Question about BTB and WTW to experts. I understand that PS3 currently does internal processing in RGB space. My question is, is it possible for a display device to recognize this (or user to select an option) and display the content as such? I remember my Sharp aquos has one such option for interpreting black, but I don't know if that it will fully expand RGB, and I don't know if this option is available on HDMI input. Does anyone else have a display that can display RGB scale on HDMI? My logic is that in that case there will be no clipping. But if that is not possible, then it's a moot point. If it is possible, what will be the side effect?

[I would prefer if full 0-255 range is usable for games]
Looks like the new firmware update resolves this issue [Edit: or not?]. I hope Stacy runs his tests again. Thanks in advance Stacy.

PS3 Firmware 1.3 is now available (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9089130&&#post9089130)


Automatic or Y Pb/Cb Pr/Cr does not display properly on my display (Sony SXRD 60XBR1). I get a strange solarization with bright images on black background (opening Sony logo on Taladega Nights). Switching back to RGB restores proper PQ.
Odd wonder what others who have done the update have to say with various displays? Perhaps another issue to add to the PS3 sticky?

Decided that my post made more sense in this thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9110333#post9110333).

Stacey - thanks for these measurements. Very good info.

Dynamic Range – HDMI to HDMI
PS3
Above White – Fail – Clips
Below Black – Fail – Clips

Back to the original post for a moment...

That measurement was taken with the PS3 in RGB mode. The new 1.3 update allows the PS3 to output Y/Cr/Cb (I'm not sure if 4:2:2 or 4:4:4). That may make a difference. Will a retest be in order?

I have the PS3 and love it. Looking foward to the 1080p24 update and, hopefully, the ability to downscale/upscale all material to any desired setting like 720P, 1080i, or 720P. I'd like to run native 720P into my 720P PJ to avoid bobbing deinterlacing from 1080i signals until I can upgrade to a native 1920 x 1080 projector for 1080p.

Back to the original post for a moment...

That measurement was taken with the PS3 in RGB mode. The new 1.3 update allows the PS3 to output Y/Cr/Cb (I'm not sure if 4:2:2 or 4:4:4). That may make a difference. Will a retest be in order?

If so, I would hope that stacey elaborates a little more on his Materials and Methods used to see if his findings can be reproduced in outside labs having the same instrumentation.

Stacey

Will you have a chance to look at ether the Sony or Pioneer ?

Thanks!!!

Stacey

Will you have a chance to look at ether the Sony or Pioneer ?

Thanks!!!

bumperoo

yes that would be sweet, also the Panny got a new firmware update in the last few days, claims improved HDMI output

thanks SS

-Gary

SO are most of you running with RGB, Y/Cr/Cb, or Automatic?

I have a samsung hls-6188...I am currently using Y/Cr/Cb. I haven't noticed anything unuual....would there be an advantage to RGB or Auto?

bump, Stacey we love ya man! :D

-Gary

One more vote for the Y/Cb/Cr re-test :) Please ...

whenever you have a chance Stacey. I third the request for the Sony and Pioneer too.

SSPears,

Can you include the Philips player also? You said you currently have this player and I am considering it as well. Would be anxious to know how it performs.

Thanks!

I cannot speak for Stacey but I do most of the same testing he is doing (we are friends). The new firmware for the Panny fixes the clipping issue but does not resolve the CUE issue introduced by the last firmware.

The Sony and Pioneer units will not playback a BD-R disc so the test disc that Stacey and I use does not work on them. The Sony does not clip head and toe room with SD discs and it does not have CUE either, but it may use different decoders for HD vs. SD like the Panasonic, so untili they support BD-R, we won't know for sure.

thanks Kris, that is one step up on the Panny for sure, I am sure they will get to CUE

after comparing the Sony vs the Sammy in my setup yesterday, I would just about be willing to say that the Sony does NOT have CUE, almost certain of it, I was using Transporter 2 as my demo, with the HD formats one doesn't realize how bad CUE is until you see it without, very different appearance and showing vs SD DVD IMHO

we certainly need CUE free HD and BR players, it's like you take the color palette and up it by 200%, it is that much better

a good example of nice CUE free playback is the JVC 5u DVHS deck, what a HDMI output on that thing :eek:

CUE never sucks until you see the problem and see a player that is not affected :mad:

-Gary

If we are talking here about PS3 not passing BTB and WTW for v1.32, then I can say based on my experiment yesterday that yes, PS3 still clips these signals.

On Sony BD's, the easter egg allows you to launch test patterns to check for pluge patterns as well as resolution, display overscan, color settings etc.

When I used the patterns found on UE, I could not see the 3 distinct shades of black under the RED color bar. I was only able to see a dark gray bar and when I turned the brightness on my 70" SXRD all the way up - it washed away.

According to the info. posted here, am I not supposed to see 3 distinct shades of "BLACK" - SuperBlack, Black, and somewhat Black(the bar I could see)???

If we are talking here about PS3 not passing BTB and WTW for v1.32, then I can say based on my experiment yesterday that yes, PS3 still clips these signals.

On Sony BD's, the easter egg allows you to launch test patterns to check for pluge patterns as well as resolution, display overscan, color settings etc.

When I used the patterns found on UE, I could not see the 3 distinct shades of black under the RED color bar. I was only able to see a dark gray bar and when I turned the brightness on my 70" SXRD all the way up - it washed away.

According to the info. posted here, am I not supposed to see 3 distinct shades of "BLACK" - SuperBlack, Black, and somewhat Black(the bar I could see)???Yes, people are hoping the supposed March firmware update will address this. I'm not holding my breath. :) At least it doesn't appear to be outputting PC RGB.

larry

Yes, people are hoping the supposed March firmware update will address this. I'm not holding my breath. :) At least it doesn't appear to be outputting PC RGB.

larry

How many things will Sony be fixing with this upgrade???!!?? It seems like every problem discussed here gets a holy grail answer of potential fix in the March fix?

CUE never sucks until you see the problem and see a player that is not affected :mad:

-Gary

It's not an issue until someone points it out, and then it's all you can see. :D

(Another) Gary

CUE should be fixable for the Panasonic because it didn't have it with the original firmware. I confirmed this with a player that wasn't upgraded yet compared to a newer updated one. So if firmware can cause it, it can get rid of it.

Kris, any idea if the black and white clipping on the PS3 can be fixed via firmware?

Kris, any idea if the black and white clipping on the PS3 can be fixed via firmware?

I don't want to answer for anyone else: But my opinion is Yes it CAN be fixed. I see no reason why it can't be. The question is will Sony make that a priority fix for their game console. I am sure they would rather have you buy a new standalone :rolleyes:

No reason it shouldn't be fixable.

Back to the original post for a moment...

That measurement was taken with the PS3 in RGB mode. The new 1.3 update allows the PS3 to output Y/Cr/Cb (I'm not sure if 4:2:2 or 4:4:4). That may make a difference. Will a retest be in order?

I have the PS3 and love it. Looking foward to the 1080p24 update and, hopefully, the ability to downscale/upscale all material to any desired setting like 720P, 1080i, or 720P. I'd like to run native 720P into my 720P PJ to avoid bobbing deinterlacing from 1080i signals until I can upgrade to a native 1920 x 1080 projector for 1080p.
Kris or Stacey,
Are you planning to run the tests on PS3 in Y/Cb/Cr mode? It would be interesting to see if those generate any different results.

Would love to, but it won't play my test disc (BD-RE). I believe Stacey's is BD-R and it will play that one, so maybe he can do it.

Sorry to bump up this old thread, but I am very confused by Stacey Spears' first post:

Is the most accurate setting (i.e. Rec.709 colorspace) obtained by setting HDMI output to RGB or YCbCr?

For one, the measurements are very old and some of the issues have been fixed with subsequent firmware. RGB vs YCbCr shouldn't affect the output color space.

larry

For one, the measurements are very old and some of the issues have been fixed with subsequent firmware. RGB vs YCbCr shouldn't affect the output color space.

larry

I saw these posts in another thread that suggest that YCbCr is preferable:

Also, if you are PS3 user you will always want to use Y Pb/Cb Pr/Cr for this simple fact:

Y Pb/Cb Pr/Cr Super-White enables the PS3 to pass BTB and WTW with Blu-ray. BTB and WTW are never passed with Blu-ray when set to RGB.


Best PS3 settings for displays that accept Y Pb/Cb Pr/Cr over HDMI:

Output - Y Pb/Cb Pr/Cr
RGB Full Range - Limited
Y Pb/Cb Pr/Cr Super-White - On

Thanks for that info, dc_pilgrim.

Actually, I use RGB on my PS3 and it passes BTB and WTW just fine with limited range and super white on. However, I'm still running the first FW version that fixed the clipping. When newer versions came out I recall discussion about how behavior changed. I never upgraded because "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". :) If the PS3 is working correctly, it shouldn't matter if you pick RGB or YCbCr. Just 2 different ways to describe the same pixel info.

larry