amirm confirms DTS output for the Xbox 360 HD DVD (http://avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9001981&&#post9001981)

"Just a quick FYI that we are looking at this problem. I don't have an update on it because I was on vacation for a while. But for now, wanted to let you know that we are finalizing our DTS encoder which once done, should produce the same experience as the Toshiba player which everyone was happy with...."

Time to return my HD-A1... ;)

EDIT

Since so many people seem confused:

HD DVD DTS --> Decoded on Xbox 360 --> Player sounds mixed in --> Re-encoded to Dolby Digital 5.1 --> Output via SPDIF optical
HD DVD TrueHD --> Decoded on Xbox 360 --> Player sounds mixed in --> Re-encoded to Dolby Digital 5.1 --> Output via SPDIF optical
HD DVD Dolby Digital Plus --> Decoded on Xbox 360 --> Player sounds mixed in --> Re-encoded to Dolby Digital 5.1 --> Output via SPDIF optical

Thus, your receiver always receives Dolby Digital 5.1 (640 Kbps), regardless of what the original track was. However, some people have noted that on some tracks on some discs, the sound was a little bit flat.

Microsoft will be releasing an update that will allow:

HD DVD DTS --> Decoded on Xbox 360 --> Player sounds mixed in --> Re-encoded to DTS --> Output via SPDIF optical
HD DVD TrueHD --> Decoded on Xbox 360 --> Player sounds mixed in --> Re-encoded to DTS --> Output via SPDIF optical
HD DVD Dolby Digital Plus --> Decoded on Xbox 360 --> Player sounds mixed in --> Re-encoded to DTS --> Output via SPDIF optical

This new DTS output (1.5 Mbps) should hopefully correct the "flatness" some people have noticed with the previous Dolby Digital 5.1 output on the Xbox 360.

Yes!!!!!!!

Sweet!!

Timeline for the update? Weeks, months? Download or CD-ROM? :confused:

YES YES YES!!!
wonderful!
this is enough for me to maybe buy a 360 addon instead of a new denon DVD player, but we will see.

Yee haa!! nice to see improvements already on the way for the add-on. Wondering what "finalizing" means though... weeks or months?

I don't mind they take a month or two, long as its done right. Non of that DD+ mess and lipsyncing issue.

Great response by MS.

I'm excited too... but what does it mean exactly? Haha.

Is everything going to be downconverted and sent through DTS at 1.5mbps now instead of DD5.1?

Precisely.

Hopefully this will correct the dynamic compression issues that have voices as loud as explosions and gunshots.

Ugh, I don't like this at all. I am not a big fan of DTS as the dialogue is always low, so I have to turn it up. But when there is some action, the audio is too loud. I wouldn't mind this, but I live above my landlord so I can't have it too loud.

Boo. I just won't update it or something.

>>I just won't update it or something.

I imagine there will be a new dashboard option to select DD or DTS output.

very cool.... i would imagine it would be a "hd-dvd update" like the one a few weeks ago (and not have to wait till the next dashboard which is 4 or 5 months off still)

>>I just won't update it or something.

I imagine there will be a new dashboard option to select DD or DTS output.

It would have to be. They can't replace dd with dts, since not every receiver out there supports dts.

I am curious, though, if this is basically an admission of sorts that dd output can't really get any better, so the fix is to add dts output.

Either way today I went into my dashboard, where the music controls are, selected the speaker icon and cranked it to 100% (it's set at about 30% by default) and then played King Kong. Noticed a big difference. I am wondering if this was the main problem all along.

It would have to be. They can't replace dd with dts, since not every receiver out there supports dts.

I am curious, though, if this is basically an admission of sorts that dd output can't really get any better, so the fix is to add dts output.

Either way today I went into my dashboard, where the music controls are, selected the speaker icon and cranked it to 100% (it's set at about 30% by default) and then played King Kong. Noticed a big difference. I am wondering if this was the main problem all along.

Well... it didn't stop Toshiba from re-encoding to dts only over optical/coax. :)

Either way today I went into my dashboard, where the music controls are, selected the speaker icon and cranked it to 100% (it's set at about 30% by default) and then played King Kong. Noticed a big difference. I am wondering if this was the main problem all along.
where is this setting?

Guide button and then where you control your music playback.

I am confused. I just watched Riddick and selected DTS and DTS scrolled on my receiver. This already is able to pass DTS. What are you guys talking about?

I am confused. I just watched Riddick and selected DTS and DTS scrolled on my receiver. This already is able to pass DTS. What are you guys talking about?

DVD or HD-DVD?

Does this not also mean nearly tripling the bit rate from 640kbps to 1.5Mbps? Or is it going to be some sort of half-rate DTS implementation?

The statement that Amirm made didnt say that any DD or DD+, TrueHD would be re-encoded to DTS, it only states they are producing a DTS encoder. He did say that they were looking at the poor quality sound problem on the DD sountracks, it does not necessarily mean it will be fixed with the DTS update.....although I'm hoping it does!

Am I reading his statement wrong ?

The statement that Amirm made didnt say that any DD or DD+, TrueHD would be re-encoded to DTS, it only states they are producing a DTS encoder. He did say that they were looking at the poor quality sound problem on the DD sountracks, it does not necessarily mean it will be fixed with the DTS update.....although I'm hoping it does!

Am I reading his statement wrong ?

What poor quality? Phantom of the opera via HD-DVD add on into my Onkyo receiver and Aperion speakers sounded insane good!

What poor quality? Phantom of the opera via HD-DVD add on into my Onkyo receiver and Aperion speakers sounded insane good!

Read this thread here....

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=749463

A lot of people are experiencing it.

And alot of people aren't.

raising the volume on that speaker icon did nothing for me.

And alot of people aren't.

Im sure their are many people who dont notice a problem, but Amirm has acknowledged the problem and hopefully will be bring a patch out soon :) :D

I am confused. I just watched Riddick and selected DTS and DTS scrolled on my receiver. This already is able to pass DTS. What are you guys talking about?

HD DVD supports the new audio formats, which includes Dolby Digital Plus, Dolby TrueHD, and DTS-HD Master Audio. No receiver out today can decode these new formats, so in order to hear these formats the player or receiver will need to be able to decode them. The 360 can decode Dolby Digital Plus and Dolby TrueHD, but since it has no hdmi or 5.1 analog audio outputs, it must re-encode those new formats to Dolby Digital so that it can be sent via digital optical (or coax). So here, we're talking about the potential 360 functionality to re-encode to DTS for these new audio formats.

The Riddick HD DVD has a dolby digital plus soundtrack in addition to regular DTS.

DVD or HD-DVD?

HD DVD. DVD version only has DD 5.1. I will say that DD 5.1 playback on Riddick on my 360 is less dynamic then the SD DD 5.1. DTS was much better but I have no way to compare DTS since the sd version has none.

HD DVD supports the new audio formats, which includes Dolby Digital Plus, Dolby TrueHD, and DTS-HD Master Audio. No receiver out today can decode these new formats, so in order to hear these formats the player or receiver will need to be able to decode them. The 360 can decode Dolby Digital Plus and Dolby TrueHD, but since it has no hdmi or 5.1 analog audio outputs, it must re-encode those new formats to Dolby Digital so that it can be sent via digital optical (or coax). So here, we're talking about the potential 360 functionality to re-encode to DTS for these new audio formats.

The Riddick HD DVD has a dolby digital plus soundtrack in addition to regular DTS.

I know this already but the subject of this thread was DTS coming to the 360 and since the 360 can pass it to any receiver, it seems confusing to me. If they are talking about the advanced audio options, it would seem that any change would have to be a hardware change since the XBOX doesn't have HDMI or 6 channel
audio outputs. Am I making sense. I hope so.

Could it be a firmware upgrade we are talking about MS doing and not a software upgrade to the add on or Xbox?

I know this already but the subject of this thread was DTS coming to the 360 and since the 360 can pass it to any receiver, it seems confusing to me. If they are talking about the advanced audio options, it would seem that any change would have to be a hardware change since the XBOX doesn't have HDMI or 6 channel
audio outputs. Am I making sense. I hope so.

The subject of this thread (though not clearly stated) is the 360s ability to re-encode the dolby digital plus or truehd streams to dts instead of dolby digital (as it is doing currently). Right now the 360's software is decoding/processing the advanced audio formats and re-encoding them to a dolby digital stream.

For DVDs and HD DVD movies that already have a DTS track, the 360 is merely passing the stream from the disc to the optical output, no additional audio processing needed.

The subject of this thread (though not clearly stated) is the 360s ability to re-encode the dolby digital plus or truehd streams to dts instead of dolby digital (as it is doing currently). Right now the 360's software is decoding/processing the advanced audio formats and re-encoding them to a dolby digital stream.

For DVDs and HD DVD movies that already have a DTS track, the 360 is merely passing the stream from the disc to the optical output, no additional audio processing needed.

Thanks for the clarification! By re-encoding DD+ and truehd to DTS what improvements will we see? Also is MS working on the regular DD 5.1 issues that have been brought. I have noticed the lack of dynamics on those tracks compared to the SD versions?

And alot of people aren't.
A lot of people aren't? Like who? I can't remember anyone in the KK thread besides you saying there was not a problem. I have not been really paying attention to other threads. Is there another thread where people are saying they do not notice the problem?

Have you directly compared the audio with the same movie from a standard DVD with DD to a HD DVD with only DD+ (running both at same time)? If so, which movie? And please do not say it does not matter how it compares to a DVD. If it sounds worse than a DVD this is a problem. I didn't invest in the add-on and HD DVDs to get worse sound than a DVD.

I can not imagine that a stand alone player like the HD-A1 playing a DD+ HD DVD going through optical (not HDMI) sounds worse than regular DVDs. Does it? Have you compared your A1 (connected with optical) to the xbox 360 at the same time playing the same DD+ only HD DVD?

I like the HD DVD drive very much. The PQ is great the drive performs very fast. I'm looking very forward the audio update. I appreciate the folks at Microsoft that are addressing this issue. Thanks!

I would just like to confirm that if watching an hd-dvd with a DTS track, it will be possible to pass the dts signal to my receiver without converting it to DD, correct? That is what I got from reading this thread. Unfortunately, there seems to be some confusion about the subject over at xbox.com

I would just like to confirm that if watching an hd-dvd with a DTS track, it will be possible to pass the dts signal to my receiver without converting it to DD, correct? That is what I got from reading this thread. Unfortunately, there seems to be some confusion about the subject over at xbox.com


The Xbox does pass DTS. Watched Riddick and it watched it with DTS. The problem is that DD 5.1 is less dynamic than the SD version DD 5.1. In the first scene where the glowing white ball comes out of the statue and explodes you get rocked with the SD version. The Xbox its really nothing. I had both the sd and HD version of Riddick playing 5 minutes apart and would go back and forth to compare PQ and sound. Same receiver and speakers. I hope MS fixes this soon.
I am happy with the quality of DD 5.1 but not happy with the XBOX passing of DD.

He did say that it would output the DTS stream like the A1, so I assume that means convesion of DD+ and True HD to 1.5Mbps DTS digital out streams, and also the ability to pass through DTS standard streams.

Hopefully Amir will confirm or deny this.

I would just like to confirm that if watching an hd-dvd with a DTS track, it will be possible to pass the dts signal to my receiver without converting it to DD, correct? That is what I got from reading this thread. Unfortunately, there seems to be some confusion about the subject over at xbox.com

I'm under the impression that for HD DVD on the 360, everything gets encoded to DD 5.1 via optical because the player needs to mix all the navigation/menu sounds with the movie's sound, in addition to any possible other video streams that can be brought up (such as picture-in picture) during playback.

yes, currently I think ALL the audio (even DTS) is getting converted to DD out on the 360...

For the person who said "TOSHIBA got rid of DD over digital out by replacing it with DTS" you are WRONG.

If you only have a DD receiver (that cannot decode DTS) than you will get the DD core from the DD+ track on disc. If, however, your receiver CAN decode DTS, you will get the DD core at a higher bitrate, closer to DD+ and thus your receiver perseives it as DTS. It perceives it as DTS b/c DD was constrained to a max bitrate on DVD (640 kb?), but not so on HD-DVD.

That is simplifying it a bit, but sort of what goes on. But rest assured that Toshiba did NOT make it only DTS that can be sent over the Digital out. If you receiver can truly only decode DD and not DTS (which I don't think is possible in this day and age, but I'll humor you) you will still get the legacy core DD.

Great news!! I'm ordering my HD DVD drive now! Thx Amir! :D

Thanks for the clarification! By re-encoding DD+ and truehd to DTS what improvements will we see? Also is MS working on the regular DD 5.1 issues that have been brought. I have noticed the lack of dynamics on those tracks compared to the SD versions?

Dolby Digital is output at a bitrate of 640kbps from the 360. With DTS, it can be output at 1.5mbps, likely meaning better sound quality.

For the person who said "TOSHIBA got rid of DD over digital out by replacing it with DTS" you are WRONG.

If you only have a DD receiver (that cannot decode DTS) than you will get the DD core from the DD+ track on disc. If, however, your receiver CAN decode DTS, you will get the DD core at a higher bitrate, closer to DD+ and thus your receiver perseives it as DTS. It perceives it as DTS b/c DD was constrained to a max bitrate on DVD (640 kb?), but not so on HD-DVD.

That is simplifying it a bit, but sort of what goes on. But rest assured that Toshiba did NOT make it only DTS that can be sent over the Digital out. If you receiver can truly only decode DD and not DTS (which I don't think is possible in this day and age, but I'll humor you) you will still get the legacy core DD.

If you were referring to me....

For HD DVD titles with advanced content, the toshiba hd dvd players will re-encode the dolby + and truehd tracks to DTS to be sent over digital coax/optical. I have not seen an option anywhere to have it output DD, but please feel free to point out this option to me in the player if I'm wrong. :)

I don't believe I ever said the Toshiba did not output DD at all, but it will only output the re-encode of the advance formats to DTS and not DD. It will output DD from DVD and HD DVDs with regular DD (and not DD+) just fine.

Excellent! :) :) :)

If you were referring to me....

For HD DVD titles with advanced content, the toshiba hd dvd players will re-encode the dolby + and truehd tracks to DTS to be sent over digital coax/optical. I have not seen an option anywhere to have it output DD, but please feel free to point out this option to me in the player if I'm wrong. :)

I don't believe I ever said the Toshiba did not output DD at all, but it will only output the re-encode of the advance formats to DTS and not DD. It will output DD from DVD and HD DVDs with regular DD (and not DD+) just fine.

All the HD DVDs have DD+, it is required, none have DD. And yes the Toshiba re-encodes that to DTS since it only has a DTS encoder. Ideally it would have had both a DTS and DD encoder so people could have a choice. It has been debated since the last century whether DTS is better than DD. At least the 360 will soon give people the option of DD or DTS.

All the HD DVDs have DD+, it is required, none have DD.
Many HD DVDs have DD tracks.

Many HD DVDs have DD tracks.

Please name them. I have over 90 HD DVDs and none of them have a DD track. They all have a DD+ track. Even the HDNet discs.

Please name them. I have over 90 HD DVDs and none of them have a DD track. They all have a DD+ track. Even the HDNet discs.
I believe you are correct.

I was reading some reviews which said that the alternate audio tracks were DD5.1, but I think they were mistaken. I checked some online individually, and they are DD+5.1.

I'll have to check the extras on the discs too but I suspect those are DD+2.0.

All the HD DVDs have DD+, it is required, none have DD. And yes the Toshiba re-encodes that to DTS since it only has a DTS encoder. Ideally it would have had both a DTS and DD encoder so people could have a choice. It has been debated since the last century whether DTS is better than DD. At least the 360 will soon give people the option of DD or DTS.
My understanding is that the A1 has a built in Doby Digital, Dolby Digital Plus, DTS, and DTS-HD encoder. Via a firmware update they add TrueHD support. How else would the A1 be backwards compatible with regular DVDs? Are you saying that the A1 converts the DD on regular DVDs to DTS?

I believe the reason the A1 converts the DD+ to DTS over optical is to get the extra bandwidth (1.5 Mbps). With DD they are limited to 448/640 kbps.

Ugh, I don't like this at all. I am not a big fan of DTS as the dialogue is always low, so I have to turn it up. But when there is some action, the audio is too loud. I wouldn't mind this, but I live above my landlord so I can't have it too loud.

Boo. I just won't update it or something.
Converting Dolby Digital Plus to DTS is not the same as having a natively mixed DTS track. It will sound different than a regular DTS track.

You can author your own HD DVD onto a DVDr with a Dolby Digital track. These movie only HD DVDs can have DD tracks and no re-encoding to DTS is done when they are played on the Toshiba players.

My understanding is that the A1 has a built in Doby Digital, Dolby Digital Plus, DTS, and DTS-HD encoder. Via a firmware update they add TrueHD support. How else would the A1 be backwards compatible with regular DVDs? Are you saying that the A1 converts the DD on regular DVDs to DTS?

I believe the reason the A1 converts the DD+ to DTS over optical is to get the extra bandwidth (1.5 Mbps). With DD they are limited to 448/640 kbps.

I wrote HD DVD not SD DVD. All the HD DVDs have DD+ for the soundtrack, not DD. I don't know about the commentary tracks, but I have over 90 HD DVDs and they all only have DD+ for the main audio track. None of them have DD.

I wrote HD DVD not SD DVD. All the HD DVDs have DD+ for the soundtrack, not DD. I don't know about the commentary tracks, but I have over 90 HD DVDs and they all only have DD+ for the main audio track. None of them have DD.
Actually, I wasn't talking about the main audio track. I was talking about secondary audio tracks and extras.

However, as I mentioned, I may have been wrong on that as well. I was going by reviews that claimed that the secondary audio tracks on some discs were plain DD, but the few discs I checked have DD+ for the secondary audio tracks as well.

It's hard to know for the extras, since the covers often don't actually say what they are. They just say "stereo". I don't know if that means DD, PCM, or DD+, but I now suspect it's the latter.

My understanding is that the A1 has a built in Doby Digital, Dolby Digital Plus, DTS, and DTS-HD encoder. Via a firmware update they add TrueHD support.

It has decoders for those formats. The only encoder it has is for DTS.

How else would the A1 be backwards compatible with regular DVDs? Are you saying that the A1 converts the DD on regular DVDs to DTS?

Everything on HD DVD is converted to DTS (assuming you're using that output) because HD DVD players decode all audio internally for mixing it with menu sounds and secondary tracks.

I believe the reason the A1 converts the DD+ to DTS over optical is to get the extra bandwidth (1.5 Mbps). With DD they are limited to 448/640 kbps.

It has nothing to do with bandwidth, and everything to do with marketing. 1500 looks better than 640 on paper, DTS looks better than DD on paper, regardless of what reality is.

Thanks stanger. I now understand. In a nutshell everything via optical for HD DVD on HD-A1 is DTS. I just read the Sound and Vision A1 review and this explains it as well. It looks like manufacturers have the option of downconverting with Dolby Digital or DTS when using optical. Thanks!

When possible I choose DTS. To me it sounds cleaner and more dynamic.

I wrote HD DVD not SD DVD. All the HD DVDs have DD+ for the soundtrack, not DD. I don't know about the commentary tracks, but I have over 90 HD DVDs and they all only have DD+ for the main audio track. None of them have DD.I meant the encoding. After reading stanger's post I now understand what you were saying. Sorry!

When possible I choose DTS. To me it sounds cleaner and more dynamic.
On SD DVDs, often times I preferred the DD track. The DTS sounded overdone at times.

The difference here though is that the transcoded DD output of the Xbox 360 sometimes sounded a bit "underdone" on some DD+ tracks of some HD DVD movies, even after you adjusted for levels. Hopefully the added DTS transcode will fix that, at least with that DTS output. It'd be nice if they'd fix it for DD output as well, for those without DTS-capable receivers.

I don't think it's really the original DD+ track (at least not completely), because the same track output in DTS from the Toshiba HD-A1 often sounds better overall, when compared to the DD output from the Xbox 360.

Mind you, on most discs I though the 360's DD output was fine, although it's possible part of the reason is that I don't have my subwoofer hooked up right now, so I wouldn't notice as much deficiency in the lower frequencies.

I think there may be a bug with the A1 when reporting the audio on a disc. The HD DVDs that I've authored with Dolby Digital tracks show up on the OSD as Dolby Digital+ and my receiver shows that it is receiving Dolby Digital via digital optical.

If that's the case then maybe the HDNet HD DVDs I have are actually DD. It shows DD+ on the screen, but I am using the HDMI connection so the A1 is sending 6 channels of PCM audio to my receiver. I'll have to throw in one of my DVDs burned in the HD DVD format to see what those show up as.

Hmmm... The disc covers on the HDNet site (http://hdnet-store.stores.yahoo.net/hddvds.html) are too small:

http://us.st11.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.com/I/hdnet-store_1924_19616

However, it looks like this to me:

http://www.creative.com/images/products/speakers/tech/flashImg/dolby_digital_logo.jpg

Not this:

http://www.hembiobrevet.se/wp-content/uploads/2006/04/Dolby_Digital_Plus_logo.thumbnail.jpg

I also see elsewhere mention (http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/Disc_Announcements/HDNet/HDNet_to_Debut_First_HD_DVD_Disc_Titles/128) that the tracks are Dolby Digital, with no mention of Plus.

so to clear this up, if you have the xbox 360 hd-dvd player and and av receiver, at present time will it output DTS or not.

Will there be an upgrade for this down the road

so to clear this up, if you have the xbox 360 hd-dvd player and and av receiver, at present time will it output DTS or not.

Will there be an upgrade for this down the road

Good lord, how many times do you need someone to say it?

From what I`ve gotten out of this thread, no it will not output dts. No matter which audio selection you make in the hd-dvd movie menu (DD, DD+, TrueHD,DTS) the stream will be converted to DD 640kbps no matter what.

The biggest problem right now seems to be the fact that DD+ sounds flat for some reason, possibly a software decoding problem.

As for DTS, amirm has stated that M$ is aware of the complaints and they are working on a solution. Converting the streams to DTS 1.5mbps seems to be the general direction that things are moving.

Ok, for review:

- The Xbox 360 by itself will pass through both Dolby Digital and DTS for standard DVD's.

- The Xbox 360 HD DVD Add-on drive will take all forms of HD DVD audio and re-encode it into a DD stream. It does NOT currently pass through DTS on either HD DVD or SD DVD.

That is the current situation. Amir announced that they were working on the decoder for DTS.

For the person who said "TOSHIBA got rid of DD over digital out by replacing it with DTS" you are WRONG.

If you only have a DD receiver (that cannot decode DTS) than you will get the DD core from the DD+ track on disc. If, however, your receiver CAN decode DTS, you will get the DD core at a higher bitrate, closer to DD+ and thus your receiver perseives it as DTS. It perceives it as DTS b/c DD was constrained to a max bitrate on DVD (640 kb?), but not so on HD-DVD.

That is simplifying it a bit, but sort of what goes on. But rest assured that Toshiba did NOT make it only DTS that can be sent over the Digital out. If you receiver can truly only decode DD and not DTS (which I don't think is possible in this day and age, but I'll humor you) you will still get the legacy core DD.
Ummm, you are completely wrong. The Toshiba decodes the Dolby Digital Plus or Dolby TruHD signal to multichannel PCM, it is then encoded using dts and sent out via SPDIF. The bitrate have no relation to what codec the receiver uses, the SPDIF protocol will inform the receiver on which to use, which, in the case of the toshiba, will be dts. SPDIF does not support sending two bitstreams, or what ever the heck you were trying to say.

The Xbox 360 HD DVD Add-on drive will take all forms of HD DVD audio and re-encode it into a DD stream.

Just to be painfully precise, but I think it matters in this case. The HD DVD drive, does nothing, it just provides raw data to the Xbox. The Xbox contain an HD DVD Player (software installed from the disc that came with the drive), that plays HD DVDs and takes care of all the audio decoding/processing for HD DVDs and DVDs.

My assumption is that the decoded audio is then passed off to the audio renderer portion of the Xbox, just as a game would, where it is encoded into DD just like any other audio from the Xbox.

It does NOT currently pass through DTS on either HD DVD or SD DVD.

Nothing is passed through for HD DVDs, because of the way they operate, all audio on an HD DVD is decoded in the player and (due to the limited outputs on the Xbox) encoded into DD.

As for SD DVD, I don't think they are handled any differently, regardless of what drive you put them in, again, the drive doesn't do anything but feed data to the Xbox. So I assume DD/DTS can be passed through from SD DVDs, regardless of what drive you put them in.

Remember, the HD DVD Player is really software running inside the Xbox, the HD DVD hardware is just the reader that allows the Xbox to read HD DVD discs.

I might be way off but here is my understanding.

1) If you send over analog to the receiver ,the Tosh decodes.

2) If you send over SPDIF then the receiver decodes...thus no decoding in the Tosh at all. So the decoding and encoding capabilities of the Tosh don't come into play.

The receiver is just interpreting DD+ as DTS because of the higher bitrate. This was discussed way back when it first came out. Since none of the receivers are capable of decoding DD+ it can't display it as decoding DD+, it recognizes it as DTS.

I don't really care one way or another, b/c I use the analogs. I would assume most people use analogs or hdmi. If I am wrong, I apologize ahead of time, but again, over SPDIF no internal decoding/encoding should be taking place anyway.

I might be way off but here is my understanding.

1) If you send over analog to the receiver ,the Tosh decodes.

Correct

2) If you send over SPDIF then the receiver decodes...thus no decoding in the Tosh at all. So the decoding and encoding capabilities of the Tosh don't come into play.

Incorrect, the Toshiba (and so far all HD DVD players) always decode all audio on HD DVDs. They do that so menu sounds and other interactive audio can be mixed with the movie soundtrack.

If you choose S/PDIF on the Tosh (or the 360), then that decoded and mixed audio has to be encoded (compressed) into a format that can be passed over S/PDIF, full-bitrate DTS in the case of the Tosh, full-bitrate DD in the case of the 360.

The receiver is just interpreting DD+ as DTS because of the higher bitrate.

No, the reciever is recieving DTS, if it were getting DD+ (which can't be sent over S/PDIF btw), it wouldn't know what to do with it. And it would say nothing, or you'd get static out your speakers.

This was discussed way back when it first came out. Since none of the receivers are capable of decoding DD+ it can't display it as decoding DD+, it recognizes it as DTS.

True there are no recievers capable of decoding DD+, but they display DTS, because that's what they recieve, because that's what the Tosh outputs over S/PDIF.

DD+ (as well as DTHD and DTS-HD) can only be passed over HDMI 1.3, the Tosh doesn't have HDMI 1.3. S/PDIF only support DD and DTS (and stereo PCM) nothing else can be passed over S/PDIF.

I put this in my original post since so many people seem confused:

HD DVD DTS --> Decoded on Xbox 360 --> Player sounds mixed in --> Re-encoded to Dolby Digital 5.1 --> Output via SPDIF optical
HD DVD TrueHD --> Decoded on Xbox 360 --> Player sounds mixed in --> Re-encoded to Dolby Digital 5.1 --> Output via SPDIF optical
HD DVD Dolby Digital Plus --> Decoded on Xbox 360 --> Player sounds mixed in --> Re-encoded to Dolby Digital 5.1 --> Output via SPDIF optical

Thus, your receiver always receives Dolby Digital 5.1 (640 Kbps), regardless of what the original track was. However, some people have noted that on some tracks on some discs, the sound was a little bit flat.

Microsoft will be releasing an update that will allow:

HD DVD DTS --> Decoded on Xbox 360 --> Player sounds mixed in --> Re-encoded to DTS --> Output via SPDIF optical
HD DVD TrueHD --> Decoded on Xbox 360 --> Player sounds mixed in --> Re-encoded to DTS --> Output via SPDIF optical
HD DVD Dolby Digital Plus --> Decoded on Xbox 360 --> Player sounds mixed in --> Re-encoded to DTS --> Output via SPDIF optical

This new DTS output (1.5 Mbps) should hopefully correct the "flatness" some people have noticed with the previous Dolby Digital 5.1 output on the Xbox 360.

And alot of people aren't.

Agreed.. So far Riddick and Serenity sound just as good as the HD-DVD Player..... )Knock on Wood).. ;)

If the TrueHD does not have the same problems as DD+ when converted into DD, then the problem most likely lies with the DD+->PCM codec.

Therefore even if DTS is output, it will still sound flat because the fault happened earlier up the pipeline.

So although getting DTS is great, and I am happy about it, I still believe there is a significant problem with the DD+->PCM decoder that needs fixing first!!

Jonathan

Good lord, how many times do you need someone to say it?

The console will pass DTS if the movie has that option.

This new DTS output (1.5 Mbps) should hopefully correct the "flatness" some people have noticed with the previous Dolby Digital 5.1 output on the Xbox 360.

Unfortunately the DTS followers will no doubt use this as proof of DTS's superiority when it's far, far more likely that MS will be doing two things, fixing the decoding/mixing, and adding DTS.

If there were that big of a difference between DD and DTS, there would be no debate, but there isn't that big of a difference.

So you still cant get TrueHD or 1080p (for most tvs) with the Xbox 360 addon?

The addon seems like a very good value but if you're a hardcore movie enthusiast the HD-A2/HD-XA2 looks like the only way to go.

The console will pass DTS if the movie has that option.

That's not my experience. All HD-DVD's will be passed as DD regardless of the type of soundtrack. This has been reiterated by others in this thread and many others.

That's not my experience. All HD-DVD's will be passed as DD regardless of the type of soundtrack. This has been reiterated by others in this thread and many others.


I just watched Riddick and chose DTS and it was passed to my Pioneer receiver and scrolled DTS across the receiver and had a very different sound then the DD 5.1. You are wrong wrong wrong!!!. This thread is addressing advance audio options being recoded to DTS like the A1 does.

I just watched Riddick and chose DTS and it was passed to my Pioneer receiver and scrolled DTS across the receiver and had a very different sound then the DD 5.1. You are wrong wrong wrong!!!. This thread is addressing advance audio options being recoded to DTS like the A1 does.

It comes through as DD on my 360 with the Add On. I just tried it out. The 360 is re-encoding it as DD.
When you switch between DTS and DD+ the DTS track is much hotter than the DD+ track. But still it is all coming out of my 360 as DD.

It comes through as DD on my 360 with the Add On. I just tried it out. The 360 is re-encoding it as DD.
When you switch between DTS and DD+ the DTS track is much hotter than the DD+ track. But still it is all coming out of my 360 as DD.


If I may jump in and say that I am no audio expert, but when I play a regular DVD in the add on, I can get the DTS audio to display on my Longitech Z5500 Digital speakers. The movies I used were Nightmare Before Christmas and The Fifth Element Superbit Editon. IMHO, the sound seems the same in the add on as it does in my HTPC. Does this help anyone? It seems to me that the 360 passes the DTS Audio but when playing the HD-DVD DD+ audio on my three movies ie....KK, Apollo 13 and The Last Samurai it sounds flat compared to playing them on the A1.

Does anyone know when the patch for the HD DVD drive coming out?

Does anyone know when the patch for the HD DVD drive coming out?
Hopefully soon.

I just watched Riddick and chose DTS and it was passed to my Pioneer receiver and scrolled DTS across the receiver and had a very different sound then the DD 5.1. You are wrong wrong wrong!!!. This thread is addressing advance audio options being recoded to DTS like the A1 does.
He is right right right. You are wrong wrong wrong. The Xbox 360 only outputs Dolby Digital at 640 kbps for all HD-DVDs. There are no exceptions. Your Xbox 360 is not more special than ours. A software update will correct this, but it has not been released yet.

If I may jump in and say that I am no audio expert, but when I play a regular DVD in the add on, I can get the DTS audio to display on my Longitech Z5500 Digital speakers. The movies I used were Nightmare Before Christmas and The Fifth Element Superbit Editon. IMHO, the sound seems the same in the add on as it does in my HTPC. Does this help anyone? It seems to me that the 360 passes the DTS Audio but when playing the HD-DVD DD+ audio on my three movies ie....KK, Apollo 13 and The Last Samurai it sounds flat compared to playing them on the A1.

yes if I put an SD DVD in the 360 it will pass the DTS audio. But with HD DVD it re-encodes everything to DD so you always have DD from the 360 when playing an HD DVD when playing a DD+, DTS, DTSHD and TrueHD track. At least with those formats and the discs I tried everything is re-encoded to DD by the 360. Which is fine with me. Althouh I guess ideally we would have a choice between re-encoding to DD or DTS and it sounds like that option will be happening sometime soon.

I wonder if this new DTS encoder for the 360 will be specific to the HD-DVD player application, or if it will become part of the system's OS and selectable as a global preference that affects everything -- even games.

My guess is that it will be specific to the HD-DVD player.

My guess is that it will be system wide, since the DD encoding is system wide. It would seem like it would require a lot more work (new menues, settings, context switching, etc) for only HD DVD.

Like I said above, my assumption is that the AC3 encoding done by the Xbox is done in the "audio renderer" (to use Windows terminology), such that the individual apps don't have to know, don't have to care about the output, they just send their sound to the "renderer" from where the 360 does whatever it needs to.

IMO the most logical place to add DTS would be there, and it would therefore apply to everything.

This brings up a couple of interesting possibilities.

First, that DTS output will be messed in exactly the same way DD output is.
Second, that the update will both add DTS, and fix the issues currently, and that both DD and DTS will be "fixed".

What I don't see happening is DTS being added and being "fixed" while DD is not. The reason? Because there's nothing wrong with the DD output, if there were, it would be apparent in games, and everything else the 360 does, but the problem is only with the HD DVD output, so any problem with the 360, is probably localized to the HD DVD player.

My guess is that it will be system wide, since the DD encoding is system wide. It would seem like it would require a lot more work (new menues, settings, context switching, etc) for only HD DVD.

Like I said above, my assumption is that the AC3 encoding done by the Xbox is done in the "audio renderer" (to use Windows terminology), such that the individual apps don't have to know, don't have to care about the output, they just send their sound to the "renderer" from where the 360 does whatever it needs to.

If the 360 has a dedicated hardware to handle DD encoding, then I doubt they'll want to add DTS overhead for gaming. If this isn't the case, then a system wide setting for either DD or DTS could be doable depending on the performance of the DTS encoder.

If the 360 has a dedicated hardware to handle DD encoding, then I doubt they'll want to add DTS overhead for gaming. If this isn't the case, then a system wide setting for either DD or DTS could be doable depending on the performance of the DTS encoder.

I believe it's been confirmed/stated (by MS) that the 360 does the encoding in software, unlike the original Xbox which did the DD encoding in the nVidia MCP.

FWIW, encoding DD/DTS is pretty trivial, especially with the kind of processing power the 360 has. 1-2% of one thread of one core isn't really a big deal. If you doubt that take a look at any of the PC solutions for on-the-fly AC3 encoding.

Actually, I wasn't talking about the main audio track. I was talking about secondary audio tracks and extras.

However, as I mentioned, I may have been wrong on that as well. I was going by reviews that claimed that the secondary audio tracks on some discs were plain DD, but the few discs I checked have DD+ for the secondary audio tracks as well.

It's hard to know for the extras, since the covers often don't actually say what they are. They just say "stereo". I don't know if that means DD, PCM, or DD+, but I now suspect it's the latter.
I picked up Chronicles of Riddick today, and also checked out some more HD DVDs at the rental shop.

Chronicles of Riddick, Serenity, and Happy Gilmore all have Dolby Digital audio tracks for the extras, not Dolby Digital (according to the cover).

Okay just did another test with "Italian job". Chapter 3 when they have the boat chase. On DD+ , the boat sounds are really low and music and dialog are much louder. Which with the DTS soundtrack the boat sounds much louder and dynamic compared to the music and dialog and overall much much better.

Okay just did another test with "Italian job". Chapter 3 when they have the boat chase. On DD+ , the boat sounds are really low and music and dialog are much louder. Which with the DTS soundtrack the boat sounds much louder and dynamic compared to the music and dialog and overall much much better.

point?

Here is an interesting read by one of Microsoft's HD DVD team about how the xbox 360 does HD DVDs. 4.7 million lines of code:
http://blogs.msdn.com/xboxteam/archive/2006/11/03/emergence-day.aspx

I just watched Riddick and chose DTS and it was passed to my Pioneer receiver and scrolled DTS across the receiver and had a very different sound then the DD 5.1. You are wrong wrong wrong!!!. This thread is addressing advance audio options being recoded to DTS like the A1 does.
On the Xbox 360 with Chronicles of Riddick, if you choose DTS, you will get DD output. To be 100% sure I just tried it, and indeed, my receiver says DD.


Here is an interesting read by one of Microsoft's HD DVD team about how the xbox 360 does HD DVDs. 4.7 million lines of code:
http://blogs.msdn.com/xboxteam/archive/2006/11/03/emergence-day.aspx
That was posted almost a month ago. ;)

hd dvd = DD output only

sd dvd = DD and/or DTS output

All you have to do is try it. Why all the discussion?

hd dvd = DD output only

sd dvd = DD and/or DTS output

All you have to do is try it. Why all the discussion?
Cuz people don't believe the truth. :p

This whole mess is rather depressing, seeing I just bought mine. imagine putting out a hd dvd player knowing that dts gets downconverted to dd. Why would they do this. Reading post after post of disgruntled buyers amazes me. Whatever happened to research and development. Lets hope microsoft can make this right and fix this issue via a software upgrade. Nevertheless, why are some still awed by the sound but others hate it. So much discrepancy. Weird. But the picture is awsome.

This whole mess is rather depressing, seeing I just bought mine. imagine putting out a hd dvd player knowing that dts gets downconverted to dd. Why would they do this. Reading post after post of disgruntled buyers amazes me. Whatever happened to research and development. Lets hope microsoft can make this right and fix this issue via a software upgrade. Nevertheless, why are some still awed by the sound but others hate it. So much discrepancy. Weird. But the picture is awsome.
because everybody has different eyes/ears.

because everybody has different eyes/ears.

Also Hardware & Setup..

Lets hope the fix for the flatness comes out soon. Then the HD-DVD add on will be hard to beat.

This whole mess is rather depressing, seeing I just bought mine. imagine putting out a hd dvd player knowing that dts gets downconverted to dd. Why would they do this.

This has been discussed ad-nauseum, it's because of the way HD DVD players work. HD DVD players (all of them at this point), decode all audio on HD DVDs, the reason is so that the interactivity sounds can be mixed with the main movie track on the fly (this can't be done with compressed streams).

The result is uncompressed audio, the best output the 360 has, is full-bitrate DD, so all audio on the Xbox is converted to full-bitrate DD.

The Toshiba does the same thing if you use the S/PDIF output. And there's nothing wrong with DD, it's just as good as DTS (the superiority of DTS unsupported by any data).

Nevertheless, why are some still awed by the sound but others hate it. So much discrepancy. Weird. But the picture is awsome.

I imagine that some people that think the HD DVDs sound good through the 360 because they have less expensive equipment (HTIB) and/or do not have a sub. The most noticeable part of the difference to me is the lack of bass. I think the biggest reason that people have been positive about the sound is because they have not compared it directly with a DVD. I would suspect that even with lesser equipment the difference would be noticeable.

The whole point of my posting this thread is to tell people that DTS is coming, and it it may give improved sound from transcoded DD+ audio tracks.

Let's not assume (as some seem to have assumed) that MS's implementation of DD+ --> DTS transcoding will be inferior to Toshiba's. We can decide when the update comes.

FWIW, I can confirm that Toshiba's implementation of DD+ --> DTS transcoding is pretty good, which is why amirm mentioned Toshiba in the first place. He claims the DTS output sound quality should be similar to the Toshiba.

point?

DTS master rocks DD+.

The whole point of my posting this thread is to tell people that DTS is coming, and it it may give improved sound from transcoded DD+ audio tracks.

Let's not assume (as some seem to have assumed) that MS's implementation of DD+ --> DTS transcoding will be inferior to Toshiba's. We can decide when the update comes.

FWIW, I can confirm that Toshiba's implementation of DD+ --> DTS transcoding is pretty good, which is why amirm mentioned Toshiba in the first place. He claims the DTS output sound quality should be similar to the Toshiba.

Can we expect this update before Xmass? & yes i also like the DTS that the Tosh throws out :)

This has been discussed ad-nauseum, it's because of the way HD DVD players work. HD DVD players (all of them at this point), decode all audio on HD DVDs, the reason is so that the interactivity sounds can be mixed with the main movie track on the fly (this can't be done with compressed streams).

The result is uncompressed audio, the best output the 360 has, is full-bitrate DD, so all audio on the Xbox is converted to full-bitrate DD.

The Toshiba does the same thing if you use the S/PDIF output. And there's nothing wrong with DD, it's just as good as DTS (the superiority of DTS unsupported by any data).

The data in my ears tells me DTS offers fuller, richer sound, with better use of surrounds. Since when is it NOT believed that DTS is better? :confused:

The data in my ears tells me DTS offers fuller, richer sound, with better use of surrounds. Since when is it NOT believed that DTS is better? :confused:
On some SD DVDs I have preferred the DD tracks, because the DTS tracks seemed to be mixed such that there was overemphasis on the surrounds.

While DTS can often be better than DD, it is not inherently better. What we can say for sure is though is that DD an DTS tracks are often different.

On FnF. When Dom starts the Charger the whole room shakes with rummbling bass all around with DTS. With DD+, it sounds like a honda with a fart can.

^^^I agree with above, DTS just has a gigger soundstage and better use of surrounds to my ears. But with some people, if it walks, talks and sounds like a duck will still call it a goose... :rolleyes:

Ok, make that 3 above.

Since when is it NOT believed that DTS is better?

Since basically without exception, when a DTS track is reportedly better than a DD track, it's been shown/found that the tracks themselves are different, not that DTS is a better codec.

DTS tracks are usually 3-4dB hotter than DD tracks.
DTS tracks are sometimes/often completely different than DD tracks.

Blind listenning tests have shown that DTS and DD are basically equivalent on sound quality.

It's really a lot like MPEG-2 vs VC1/H.264, DTS and DD can both have about the same potential for sound quality, but DTS takes about 2x the bits to do it.

While DTS can often be better than DD, it is not inherently better. What we can say for sure is though is that DD an DTS tracks are often different.

Agreed, with one small tweak, DTS tracks can sound better than DD.

Since basically without exception, when a DTS track is reportedly better than a DD track, it's been shown/found that the tracks themselves are different, not that DTS is a better codec.

DTS tracks are usually 3-4dB hotter than DD tracks.
DTS tracks are sometimes/often completely different than DD tracks.

Blind listenning tests have shown that DTS and DD are basically equivalent on sound quality.

It's really a lot like MPEG-2 vs VC1/H.264, DTS and DD can both have about the same potential for sound quality, but DTS takes about 2x the bits to do it.



Agreed, with one small tweak, DTS tracks can sound better than DD.

Brother, all I can tell ya is what sounds the best to me, on my HTS, and it's DTS, in a walk. You can throw all the numbers in the trash can, because if my ears tell me DTS sounds richer and fuller, then that is what I am going to prefer.

I promise you I can tell the difference and for me, DTS wins easily.

Brother, all I can tell ya is what sounds the best to me, on my HTS, and it's DTS, in a walk. You can throw all the numbers in the trash can, because if my ears tell me DTS sounds richer and fuller, then that is what I am going to prefer.

I promise you I can tell the difference and for me, DTS wins easily.

agreed. even on sd dvds, dts just sounds more dynamic, and i like the fact that i don't have to crank my reciever to 80% max volume.

On the Xbox 360 with Chronicles of Riddick, if you choose DTS, you will get DD output. To be 100% sure I just tried it, and indeed, my receiver says DD.



That was posted almost a month ago. ;)

I've got about 10 HD-DVDs.... I play any of them with DD+ and my brand new Pioneer Elite says Digital as expected. I put in Riddick or Sahara and select DTS my receiver says DTS.

So someone explain to me how the 360 is not passing DTS if my receiver is saying DTS?!?!

Louder always sounds better on cursory tests. However, that doesn't mean it's actually better once levels are matched.

A sure way make one set of speakers sound "better" than another is just to turn up the volume for that one set.

Similarly, a sure way to make surround speakers sound more "dynamic" is just to turn up the volume for the surrounds.


I've got about 10 HD-DVDs.... I play any of them with DD+ and my brand new Pioneer Elite says Digital as expected. I put in Riddick or Sahara and select DTS my receiver says DTS.

So someone explain to me how the 360 is not passing DTS if my receiver is saying DTS?!?!
Strange. My receiver says DD with the Riddick HD DVD's DTS track, with my Xbox 360 HD DVD.

When I get home tonite I'll turn off the menu sounds and see what happens. When I did my Riddick DTS test, it was with the menu sounds on.

my Elite reciever says DD also when DTS is picked up sounds just like DTS should.

I think the more important question is when will MS get this upgrade out. I have pretty much stopped watching my HD-DVDs altogether until they do.

The re-encoded DD+ stuff sounds like complete ish IMHO. But the DTS sounds fantastic. And I am seriously talking night and day. So right now I get to watch Riddick or Sahara until MS gets this sweet update out.

How about an update on the status Amirm :D

I think the more important question is when will MS get this upgrade out. I have pretty much stopped watching my HD-DVDs altogether until they do.

The re-encoded DD+ stuff sounds like complete ish IMHO. But the DTS sounds fantastic. And I am seriously talking night and day. So right now I get to watch Riddick or Sahara until MS gets this sweet update out.
TrueHD --> DD usually sounds pretty good too. But then again, there is the lag issue with TrueHD (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=751752) some people have on some discs.


How about an update on the status Amirm :D
Yeah it'd be nice to know. :) Hopefully sometime this month.

Brother, all I can tell ya is what sounds the best to me, on my HTS, and it's DTS, in a walk. You can throw all the numbers in the trash can, because if my ears tell me DTS sounds richer and fuller, then that is what I am going to prefer.

I promise you I can tell the difference and for me, DTS wins easily.

This has been debated since last century. On DVDs the DTS track is usually a different mix from the DD track so comparing them is Apples to Oranges. You would need to have a DTS and DD track that are both mixed the same way with the same sound levels to do a true comparison. And in blind tests when that is done the results are mixed.

This has been debated since last century. On DVDs the DTS track is usually a different mix from the DD track so comparing them is Apples to Oranges. You would need to have a DTS and DD track that are both mixed the same way with the same sound levels to do a true comparison. And in blind tests when that is done the results are mixed.

Aaron, again, all I am saying is what I like better is DTS, its what sounds better to me. All the statistics, tests, whatever, are irrelevant when you are sitting in your living room, watching Saving Private Ryan.

thats what we've been saying, DTS mixes are better. Ofcourse if they are mixed the same they will be similer, like same VC1 bluray/hddvd. But DTS mixes are more dynamic and spacious.

Why not wait till the update is here before debating which is better? The true test is in actually playing a movie and comparing the DD and DTS encodes.

Why not wait till the update is here before debating which is better? The true test is in actually playing a movie and comparing the DD and DTS encodes.

All we've been doing is discussing which sounds better on the stuff we already have. Nobody is speculating or declaring a winner for the 360 sound output.

All we've been doing is discussing which sounds better on the stuff we already have. Nobody is speculating or declaring a winner for the 360 sound output.
Actually, some have expressed worry that it will be bad for both DD and DTS on HD DVD with the 360, because they wondered if there is some issue with DD+ decoding on the Xbox 360. However, I think we should just should just wait until the DTS update is out and not jump to any conclusions before then.

Our resident MS exec here states the DD+ --> DTS transcoding on the 360 should sound good, implying it will sound better than the DD+ --> DD does right now, and at this point I'll choose to believe him.

Why not wait till the update is here before debating which is better? The true test is in actually playing a movie and comparing the DD and DTS encodes.

It certainly won't be worse.

It certainly won't be worse.

+1

It would be hard to imagine a 1.5mb stream not being significantly better than a 600kb n change stream.

And like Amirm said, this update will basically bring the 360 solution in line with Toshibas commercial players..... and so far those have had excellent reviews regarding the audio.

i wish they would give some kind of timetable here. can we expect it within the next couple of weeks? by next june? i'm starting to hate these little comments that get everyone worked up but won't necessarily happen for months...

It would be hard to imagine a 1.5mb stream not being significantly better than a 600kb n change stream.

And like Amirm said, this update will basically bring the 360 solution in line with Toshibas commercial players..... and so far those have had excellent reviews regarding the audio.
Not saying this is comparable, but FWIW I sometimes get slightly better results with 192 Kbps iTunes AAC than I did with 320 Kbps Xing MP3. However, both are damn good, as is 160 Kbps iTunes AAC.

Now pre-encoded stuff isn't the same thing as stuff transcoded on the fly, but DD on SD DVD is 384 - 448 Kbps, and it can sound damn good. On the Xbox 360, it's 640 Kbps, but sometimes hasn't sounded as good. I don't think it's the actual number of bits that are an issue. Thus, it may be something with the original mix, the decode process, or the re-encode process, etc. or some combination of the above. If there isn't a problem with the original track, then it's possible that an update can improve sound for problematic DD+ tracks transcoded to DD as well, not just DTS.

However, we shouldn't jump to any conclusions. We will have to wait and see (hear).

yes, currently I think ALL the audio (even DTS) is getting converted to DD out on the 360...

To Clarify.

HD-DVD has a unique way of handling audio. It takes all of the different audio tracks that are present on the disc and it dynamically remixes them, this is to save space on the disk. Meaning that if you have a Video commentary stream, 2 audio commentary streams, a DTS track, a Dolby True HD track and DD+ track you don't have to include the soundtracks within the commentary's.

The Commentary's would only have the voiceover, they wouldn't have to contain any of the audio from the movies soundtrack as is the normal way on SD-DVD.

When you play back an HD-DVD with one of these tracks activated, it mixes in the audio streams, including other audio such as the menu when you use it. This reduces as I said the amount of data needed for audio tracks.

What the current crop of HD-DVD players do, (and blue ray I believe but dont quote me) is that after remixing this audio they output into a format that everybody can support (this is because there are currently or were no current receivers that decode these new formats natively. In the case of the Toshiba Standalone player it uses DTS, and might possibly output a full bandwidth PCM stream etc, so that your receiver can handle the data as it sees fit.


For the record.

DTS has a max bitrate of 1.5 MB

On the XBOX 360 the audio is mixed and then output as Dolby Digital 5.1, which was chosen because I'm sure more hardware supports Dolby Digital vs. DTS although I'm sure most people support both.

Dolby Digital 5.1 has a max bit rate of 640KB

Most if not all Dolby Digital 5.1 (or AC3) soundtracks on SD-DVD are encoded at 448KB

So since without an HDMI adapter or 5 or 7 channel analog out, the Xbox 360 MUST re-encode the new audio formats to one that can be played back. Right now that is Dolby Digital 5.1. Now "alot" of people have complained that the audio is less dynamic than that of the Dolby Digital 5.1 tracks on SD-DVD's with the same movie.

I for one agree that while the volume is lower, and possibly the Bass as well, the audio field on the Dolby Digital + tracks are both clearer and more defined (probably due to the extra bandwidth allocated). But some people heavily base their system's performance biased torwards their bass.

AmirM (of Microsoft and specifically the HD-DVD group 'I believe') has stated that they have confirmed this problem. So whether or not you think you have a problem. Microsoft has according to him, confirmed it.

What I believe they would be working on is the ability to choose from within the Xbox interface, whether or not you want the HD-DVD audio RE-Encoded to Dolby Digital 5.1 or RE-Encoded to DTS.

As I stated earlier, Dolby Digital 5.1 is maxed out on the Xbox 360 at 640KB and DTS at 1.5MB, this means you will see more than twice the bandwidth allocated to the audio. As long as they make no mistakes and crush the dynamics there is no possible way that DTS at 1.5 MB will sound worse than Dolby Digital 5.1 at 640KB.

For those that stated that they feel that there are problem with DTS 5.1, then I would suggest you look into checking the settings on both your DVD player or more specifically your Recievers.

DTS is by far a superior format than standard Dolby Digital +, not only in bandwidth but usually because the DTS mixes are much more lively and in general just a better mix of the movies soundtrack.

Hope this clears up some of this for you, if anybody notices something I have mispoken on, please let me know. I'm not an expert or a movie mixer, audio engineer, but I know quite a bit about home theater and all of the pieces that go into making a great movie presentation at home.

Thanks

TimT

DTS is by far a superior format than standard Dolby Digital +, not only in bandwidth but usually because the DTS mixes are much more lively and in general just a better mix of the movies soundtrack.
As I've said before, I've often preferred the DD track on SD DVDs, because the DTS surround "liveliness" sounded artificial to me, and the DD sounded more reasonable. ie. I've sometimes (but not always) preferred the DD mix, although I don't know which is more "accurate".

I also seem to recall that some early DTS DVD releases had the surrounds set 3 dB too high, yet some people preferred them, because they were "livelier". Perhaps someone can confirm or refute this.

Similarly, DTS and DD are calibrated differently as I recall. DTS is on a system calibrated for DD will be louder. Similarly DD on a system calibrated for DTS will be quieter. Thus, on some discs, the DTS track will simply be louder than the DD track, which some perceive as "better".

P.S. I think you meant to say DD, because DD+ has a maximum bitrate of 6 Mbps.

As I've said before, I've often preferred the DD track on SD DVDs, because the DTS surround "liveliness" sounded artificial to me, and the DD sounded more reasonable. ie. I've sometimes (but not always) preferred the DD mix.

I also seem to recall that some early DTS DVD releases had the surrounds set 3 dB too high, yet some people preferred them, because they were "livelier". Perhaps someone can confirm or refute this.

Similarly, DTS and DD are calibrated differently as I recall. DTS is on a system calibrated for DD will be louder. Similarly DD on a system calibrated for DTS will be quieter. Thus, on some discs, the DTS track will simply be louder than the DD track, which some perceive as "better".

I still think its just a matter of what each person prefers. On my system and IMHO, DTS absolutely positively destroys DD.... and then kicks it in the beanbag while its down. Virtually every part of the audio range sounds like its mixed way better to me.

DD surround seems far weaker to me. When I fire up Master and Commander in DTS, for example, I can hear the wood splintering behind me from the cannon balls that whiz by. In DD those same sounds are all mixed in the action and I can hardly notice them.

It might help to read this Dialnorm article (http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_7_2/feature-article-dialog-normalization-6-2000.html) to clear up some confusion about DD vs dts sound levels. As they say, for most people, if it is louder they think it sounds better. Personally I am agnostic about 640 kbps DD vs 1509 kbps dts. Which is better for me can vary from title to title. Like Stanger I have not seen any impartial scientific proof that one is better than the other.

Bob

my Elite reciever says DD also when DTS is picked up sounds just like DTS should.

That should almost end the debate right there, DTS converted to DD "sounds like DTS should". Not, "sounds like I'd expect DD", or "sounds noticably worse", but "sounds like it should".

Aaron, again, all I am saying is what I like better is DTS, its what sounds better to me.

You like the DTS audio track better, and you are (incorrectly) attributing that difference to the codec. The simple fact is that connection cannot be made, because there are too many variables which are unknown.

Note, that I'm not saying DTS tracks don't/can't sound better than DD tracks, I'm saying if there is a difference, it's not due to the use of DTS.

All the statistics, tests, whatever, are irrelevant when you are sitting in your living room, watching Saving Private Ryan.

I believe SPR is a classic example of a flim where the DTS track is completely different from the DD track.

Nobody is speculating or declaring a winner for the 360 sound output.

A lot of people have been crying for DTS output as if it would magically make the output of the 360 better.

It would be hard to imagine a 1.5mb stream not being significantly better than a 600kb n change stream.

That's the same logic that was used in the early MPEG-2 vs VC-1 debates, that "How can 20Mbps MPEG-2 not be better than 12Mbps VC-1". Well we all know how that turned out.

Comparing bitrates between codecs as a measure of quality is a futile and flawed excercise as codecs work differently. DTS is a much less efficient codec than DD is, it takes more bits to achieve the same quality.

And like Amirm said, this update will basically bring the 360 solution in line with Toshibas commercial players.....

Hopefully that means they're fixing whatever is (or might be) wrong with the DD+ decoding in the 360, because simply changing to DTS for compression isn't going to do any magic.

Now pre-encoded stuff isn't the same thing as stuff transcoded on the fly, but DD on SD DVD is 384 - 448 Kbps, and it can sound damn good.

For video no, but for audio, much more so, audio is trivial to compress, and AFAIK, they don't do anything different for a pre-recorded content vs "live" encoding.

I for one agree that while the volume is lower, and possibly the Bass as well,

I can "confirm" this as well. I'd estimate it's between 10 and 20dB lower than it should be, how do I know this? Because with DVD I usually run my AVM-20 at -20dB (sometimes up to -15dB) for movies, and this is loud, but comfortable (perfect).

With most of the HD DVDs I've tried, I have to take my AVM-20 up to -10 to 0dB to get the same sort of experience. In general I can run an HD DVD at 0dB comfortably.

I wouldn't be a bit surprised if most of the people who complain about the 360's audio are just getting caught by the level difference. 10-20dB is quite a lot, that's between 10/100x difference (power wise).

the audio field on the Dolby Digital + tracks are both clearer and more defined (probably due to the extra bandwidth allocated). But some people heavily base their system's performance biased torwards their bass.

I know with most HD DVDs, I've found the bass performace to be great, haven't really done any significant 1:1 comparisons, but my "feeling" is that (after compensating for the volume difference) HD DVDs have better bass.

As I stated earlier, Dolby Digital 5.1 is maxed out on the Xbox 360 at 640KB and DTS at 1.5MB, this means you will see more than twice the bandwidth allocated to the audio. As long as they make no mistakes and crush the dynamics there is no possible way that DTS at 1.5 MB will sound worse than Dolby Digital 5.1 at 640KB.

As I said above, when talking about different codecs, bitrate is meaningless as any sort of measure of quality. Though I agree that DTS should not be worse than DD, likewise DD should not be worse than DTS. Basically, I think any objective comparison will show DTS is no improvement over DD (in this application).

DTS is by far a superior format than standard Dolby Digital +, not only in bandwidth

So is MPEG-2 superior because it uses more bandwidth? It's really the same issue. DTS has higher bandwidth because it needs it.

And BTW, DD+ has a much higher max bitrate on HD DVD than DTS's 1.5Mbps. DD+ is arguably the "best" codec available today, as far as movies go, it's more efficient than DD, and supports bitrates up to 3Mbps on HD DVD (1.7Mbps on Blu-ray).

FWIW:
http://www.hi-fi.ro/fhifi/download.php?id=2351&sid=b6cc4cb729ad77b3984c7a9a09f9e25d
Yes it was done by Dolby but it includes both Dolby and DTS's positions on the issues.

but usually because the DTS mixes are much more lively and in general just a better mix of the movies soundtrack.

Then that really has nothing to do with DTS as a codec. Which comes back to the original point I was trying to make in my response, that, despite what

I can "confirm" this as well. I'd estimate it's between 10 and 20dB lower than it should be, how do I know this? Because with DVD I usually run my AVM-20 at -20dB (sometimes up to -15dB) for movies, and this is loud, but comfortable (perfect).

With most of the HD DVDs I've tried, I have to take my AVM-20 up to -10 to 0dB to get the same sort of experience. In general I can run an HD DVD at 0dB comfortably.

I wouldn't be a bit surprised if most of the people who complain about the 360's audio are just getting caught by the level difference. 10-20dB is quite a lot, that's between 10/100x difference (power wise).


What's the deal with those posting things like this? Does this fix the 10 dB level problem on HD DVD playback on the 360?
Start the 360.

Hit the Guide button to open the dashboard.

Select the Speaker icon that appears above the "Select Music" button in the dash.

Note the default volume setting is at approx. 30%.

Adjust it to 100% - full right.

Hit OK or A on the controller to commit the change.

Close the dash by pressing Guide again.

Insert HD-DVD disc.

Notice that the audio has expected dynamic range, you can crank your amp/receiver back to normal listening levels, etc.

I didn't break out a meter, but my ear says that with the dash music volume max'd, the HD player's audio level matches the SD audio level when playing a SD DVD directly on the 360.

Cool! Where's that from? I'll try it tonight.

FWIW the only point in my posting that, was that I was agreeing that (at least by default) the 360 HD DVD audio is lower than DVD, and that's a likely cause of the complaints about the audio, that people may not be fully compensating for the difference.

Plus, 1/3 gain would be enough to squash quite a bit of dynamic range on a movie.

Cool! Where's that from? I'll try it tonight.

FWIW the only point in my posting that, was that I was agreeing that (at least by default) the 360 HD DVD audio is lower than DVD, and that's a likely cause of the complaints about the audio, that people may not be fully compensating for the difference.

Plus, 1/3 gain would be enough to squash quite a bit of dynamic range on a movie.

It absolutely does NOTHING.

FWIW the only point in my posting that, was that I was agreeing that (at least by default) the 360 HD DVD audio is lower than DVD, and that's a likely cause of the complaints about the audio, that people may not be fully compensating for the difference.
Even after adjusting for levels, the DD output from DD+ tracks on certain titles does seem a little "flat" to me. Thus, I think the problem is real, and MS seems to agree.

However, it clearly hasn't bothered me as much it has bothered some other people. I think this is for a couple of reasons.

1) I have adjusted for overall volumes (approximately, and not for individual channels) when doing the comparisons, so there may be a bit less of a difference after adjustment.
2) I don't have my subwoofer plugged in (cuz it would p!ss off my neighbours), so deficiencies in bass may be less apparent.
3) My primary concerns are video quality and audio sync. Sound quality is of course very important, but come after the video and audio sync. Video quality is stellar so that's a non-issue, but incorrect sync is a real problem on some discs, and that annoys me more.

Cool! Where's that from?
The XBox 360 HD DVD Addon FAQ. Post:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9021103&&#post9021103

Note that I have the drive (using it with PC and waiting for release app sw) but not the XBOX 360.

Bob

I know with most HD DVDs, I've found the bass performace to be great, haven't really done any significant 1:1 comparisons, but my "feeling" is that (after compensating for the volume difference) HD DVDs have better bass.


I would suggest doing some 1:1 comparisons. I have tested King Kong, Batman Begins and Troy....I was amazed how much better the SD DVD's sounded compared to the HD DVD's. It is not just volume.

I would suggest doing some 1:1 comparisons. I have tested King Kong, Batman Begins and Troy....I was amazed how much better the SD DVD's sounded compared to the HD DVD's. It is not just volume.

I couldn't agree more

It absolutely does NOTHING.

I would tend to agree.

I watched Superman Returns last night with the audio "fixed", and it didn't seem to change anything. Quite frankly, the audio doesn't bother me, so I'm not terribly inclined to do too much investigation.

good to hear, i cant wait for the update

It amazes me the amount of misinformation in this thread.

Re-encoding to DTS does nothing to help the issue. DTS is simply a compression format, not a sound format. It is compressing PCM. The bitrate it uses means nothing since it is a different compression codec than DD. The numbers mean nothing in relation to each other. The only thing it does is slips you that little placebo you long for.

The problem with the 360 seems to be isolated to DD+ decoding as TrueHD soundtracks sound fine. I think that needs to be looked into rather than simply re-encoding to DTS. It will probably just sound the same.

I understand the re-encoding to DD, but why can't the 360 just pass through a normal DTS signal (not DTS-MA) to be decoded by A/V receivers/decoders?

It's frustrating that the 360 will pass through DTS on a SD-DVD but not on an HD DVD.

TrueHD doesn't concern me as it was well understood that the 360 wasn't designed for it in mind. But not being able to pass through a DTS signal...come on.

The only thing it does is slips you that little placebo you long for.

Understanding that it's not a solution for other audio issues, are you saying there is no possibility that on a given audio system the DTS decode may not be preferrable (for them) to the DD5.1 decode?

We're talking about what should be an additional option here for DTS after all so a "placebo" implies that in your opinion there will be no detectable audio difference between DTS 1.5 and DD 5.1 640k right?

I am all for MS adding the OPTION of selecting the output as one or the other. And I completely feel that if the title has a DTS soundtrack on the HD DVD (Paramount titles for example) that the bitstream output should be DTS, but I don't think you'll hear ANY sonic improvement just from being re-encoded to DTS.

640KBps DD is more than adequate for this type of application. The sound is not going to all of sudden get better because you are using a DTS re-encode. Hell 448KBps stacks up to 1.5 MBps DTS with no issues. 640 is better than we've seen on ANY format before, when 448 was already as good as anything DTS brought to the table. The only differences you were hearing with DTS in the early days was EQ'ing, which MS re-encoding won't do. Again, apples and oranges.

First Post,Just finished playing around with this,all i can say is that it is well worth the wait/hassle for those lucky enough.
My query is that i played a queen dvd which is coded with dts 96/24,it sounded quite superb,now my amp showed that it was decoding dts 96/24 and also the info bar on the hd drive said dts,is this correct because as i understand it should not do dts and indeed downsamples to dolby digital,is this correct? and has anyone else found this(my receiver is a jvc 701).
I also noticed there was no drop in volume on dts,and in fact it sounded quite bassey and louder (no adjustment on the volume).
Final point i switched between dolby and dts and there was most definatly a clear distinction between the two.
Sorry for the long post.

I understand the re-encoding to DD, but why can't the 360 just pass through a normal DTS signal (not DTS-MA) to be decoded by A/V receivers/decoders?

Because the menu audio has to be mixed in. You can't just mix compressed audio streams; you have to decompress them first, and once you've got it uncompressed, you can't send it over S/PDIF to a receiver without recompressing it.

First Post,Just finished playing around with this,all i can say is that it is well worth the wait/hassle for those lucky enough.
My query is that i played a queen dvd which is coded with dts 96/24,it sounded quite superb,now my amp showed that it was decoding dts 96/24 and also the info bar on the hd drive said dts,is this correct because as i understand it should not do dts and indeed downsamples to dolby digital,is this correct? and has anyone else found this(my receiver is a jvc 701).
I also noticed there was no drop in volume on dts,and in fact it sounded quite bassey and louder (no adjustment on the volume).
Final point i switched between dolby and dts and there was most definatly a clear distinction between the two.
Sorry for the long post.

This was mentioned a few times throughout the topic, but SD-DVD audio isn't converted to anything when played back on the addon or internal drive of the 360. DTS tracks on HD-DVD however, do get converted to Dolby Digital, but it looks as though MS is working on "fixing" it.

I am all for MS adding the OPTION of selecting the output as one or the other. And I completely feel that if the title has a DTS soundtrack on the HD DVD (Paramount titles for example) that the bitstream output should be DTS, but I don't think you'll hear ANY sonic improvement just from being re-encoded to DTS.

640KBps DD is more than adequate for this type of application. The sound is not going to all of sudden get better because you are using a DTS re-encode. Hell 448KBps stacks up to 1.5 MBps DTS with no issues. 640 is better than we've seen on ANY format before, when 448 was already as good as anything DTS brought to the table. The only differences you were hearing with DTS in the early days was EQ'ing, which MS re-encoding won't do. Again, apples and oranges.

I believe there will be a big difference when it comes to the sound quality of a re-encoded TrueHD to 640kbps DD vs TrueHD to 1.5mbps DTS. You will be able to send more than 2x the amount of information that would otherwise have been thrown away using the DD re-encode. That is why we really need the DTS re-encode option. Now converting a DD+ or a standard DTS track is a different story. DD+ and standard DTS/DTS-ES is already 1.5mbps max (IIRC) so I believe that re-encode would only have little to no noticeable sound quality improvement.

I also hope they check the DTS stream and if it is a standard DTS/DTS-ES 1.5mbps or lower stream that they just pass it through. No need to re-encode that.

I also hope they check the DTS stream and if it is a standard DTS/DTS-ES 1.5mbps or lower stream that they just pass it through. No need to re-encode that.
what about the audio for the menu stuff that needs to be decoded at the player?

+1

It would be hard to imagine a 1.5mb stream not being significantly better than a 600kb n change stream.



It would be hard to imagine a 30mbs video stream not being significantly better than a 15mbs video stream. :rolleyes:

First Post,Just finished playing around with this,all i can say is that it is well worth the wait/hassle for those lucky enough.
My query is that i played a queen dvd which is coded with dts 96/24,it sounded quite superb,now my amp showed that it was decoding dts 96/24 and also the info bar on the hd drive said dts,is this correct because as i understand it should not do dts and indeed downsamples to dolby digital,is this correct? and has anyone else found this(my receiver is a jvc 701).

I assume this is a DVD, not an HD DVD (to the best of my knowledge there's no Queen HD DVD).

The "problem" if you can call it that (of not passing DTS), is isolated to HD DVD, and is a function of the way HD DVDs operate.

I also noticed there was no drop in volume on dts,and in fact it sounded quite bassey and louder (no adjustment on the volume).

That's pretty normal, DD usually has a -4dB Dialalog Normalization applied to it, while DTS doesn't so DTS is usually 4dB louder than DD.

Final point i switched between dolby and dts and there was most definatly a clear distinction between the two.
Sorry for the long post.

I believe studies have shown that people always pick the louder of two options as sounding better, even if they aren't aware of the level difference.

This was mentioned a few times throughout the topic, but SD-DVD audio isn't converted to anything when played back on the addon or internal drive of the 360.

Correct, and this seems to be leading to a good bit of confusion.

DTS tracks on HD-DVD however, do get converted to Dolby Digital,

We must be very, very precise in our wording here, because that's not completely correct, and there's even more confusion about this.

The Xbox is not converting DTS to DD on HD DVD. The way HD DVDs operate, with their tightly integrated interactivity, is that all audio must be decoded in the player. This must be done in order to mix the movie soundtrack to be mixed with the interactivity sounds (menu clicks and whatnot).

The end result is multichannel PCM coming out of the player. There are several ways this can leave the player, via analog connections, via HDMI 1.1+. This cannot however, be send over S/PDIF as is, it has to be compressed into a format that can be passed over S/PDIF, in the Xbox 360's case, this is full-bitrate DD.

but it looks as though MS is working on "fixing" it.

No, they are adding the option for the Xbox (for HD DVD's at least, but probably in general if I had to guess) to compress that Multichannel PCM into DTS instead of DD.

This does not mean that the 360 will now "pass" DTS on HD DVDs, in fact what will happen, is that if you choose a DTS track, that DTS track will be decoded/decompressed, mixed with the menu sounds, and that resulting multichannel PCM will be recompressed to DTS.

In fact this is probably going to be the worst option, all else being equal, (assuming the DD+ decoding issues are fixed), choosing DTS track on an HD DVD and DTS will be the worst possible output combination. That's because on HD DVDs, DTS is actually the "worst" track available.

HD DVDs generally have 640k DD+ (or maybe 1.5Mbps DD+), DTHD, and sometimes DTS. DTHD is obviously the best option as it's lossless, next best is DD+ (which is an improved version of DD), then DTS.

Note I'm not saying DTS output will be worse than DD output, it would probably be very similar to what we get now with DD output.

And I completely feel that if the title has a DTS soundtrack on the HD DVD (Paramount titles for example) that the bitstream output should be DTS, but I don't think you'll hear ANY sonic improvement just from being re-encoded to DTS.

Just curious are you saying DTS should be recompressed to DTS vs DD?

The sound is not going to all of sudden get better because you are using a DTS re-encode. Hell 448KBps stacks up to 1.5 MBps DTS with no issues.

Glad I'm not the only one standing up for DD :).

640 is better than we've seen on ANY format before,

I think DTheater fans might take issue with that statement :D

I believe there will be a big difference when it comes to the sound quality of a re-encoded TrueHD to 640kbps DD vs TrueHD to 1.5mbps DTS. You will be able to send more than 2x the amount of information that would otherwise have been thrown away using the DD re-encode.

This is the rallying cry of the DTS faithful, yet it has no basis in fact.

If it did, 320kbps MP3 would be better than 192kbps AAC or WMA, 20Mbps MPEG-2 would be better than 12Mbps VC-1. But that's not the case, AAC and WMA work different than MP3 and VC-1 works differently than MPEG-2, DD works different than DTS, you simply CANNOT compare bitrates across codecs and draw any sort of meaningful evaluation of their comparative quality.

"Just a quick FYI that we are looking at this problem. I don't have an update on it because I was on vacation for a while. But for now, wanted to let you know that we are finalizing our DTS encoder which once done, should produce the same experience as the Toshiba player which everyone was happy with...."

Time to return my HD-A1... ;)

EDIT

Since so many people seem confused:

HD DVD DTS --> Decoded on Xbox 360 --> Player sounds mixed in --> Re-encoded to Dolby Digital 5.1 --> Output via SPDIF optical
HD DVD TrueHD --> Decoded on Xbox 360 --> Player sounds mixed in --> Re-encoded to Dolby Digital 5.1 --> Output via SPDIF optical
HD DVD Dolby Digital Plus --> Decoded on Xbox 360 --> Player sounds mixed in --> Re-encoded to Dolby Digital 5.1 --> Output via SPDIF optical

Thus, your receiver always receives Dolby Digital 5.1 (640 Kbps), regardless of what the original track was. However, some people have noted that on some tracks on some discs, the sound was a little bit flat.

Microsoft will be releasing an update that will allow:

HD DVD DTS --> Decoded on Xbox 360 --> Player sounds mixed in --> Re-encoded to DTS --> Output via SPDIF optical
HD DVD TrueHD --> Decoded on Xbox 360 --> Player sounds mixed in --> Re-encoded to DTS --> Output via SPDIF optical
HD DVD Dolby Digital Plus --> Decoded on Xbox 360 --> Player sounds mixed in --> Re-encoded to DTS --> Output via SPDIF optical

This new DTS output (1.5 Mbps) should hopefully correct the "flatness" some people have noticed with the previous Dolby Digital 5.1 output on the Xbox 360.

Thank god !!!!!

When I first picked mine up the day after thanksgiving i thought it sounded pretty good... then they did the update the other day and seemed to sound real flat. The exception to that is DD True HD from Superman Returns and the Chronicles of Riddick DTS. It seems these formats pack a little more punch through the 360

A lot of people aren't? Like who? I can't remember anyone in the KK thread besides you saying there was not a problem. I have not been really paying attention to other threads. Is there another thread where people are saying they do not notice the problem?

Have you directly compared the audio with the same movie from a standard DVD with DD to a HD DVD with only DD+ (running both at same time)? If so, which movie? And please do not say it does not matter how it compares to a DVD. If it sounds worse than a DVD this is a problem. I didn't invest in the add-on and HD DVDs to get worse sound than a DVD.

I can not imagine that a stand alone player like the HD-A1 playing a DD+ HD DVD going through optical (not HDMI) sounds worse than regular DVDs. Does it? Have you compared your A1 (connected with optical) to the xbox 360 at the same time playing the same DD+ only HD DVD?

I like the HD DVD drive very much. The PQ is great the drive performs very fast. I'm looking very forward the audio update. I appreciate the folks at Microsoft that are addressing this issue. Thanks!


I just picked up the player and checked out some of the action scenes from kong. The volume as well as the audio quality was low compared to both regular dvd as well as dolby digital from DirecTV channels.

Will the audio fix you speak of address these issues?

Will it allow the HD audio formats to be converted to DTS? And will this DTS sound like DTS you would hear on a standard DVD? DTS is excellent to my ears, and would be perfectly happy with DTS quality in my movies from the xbox add-on.

I believe there will be a big difference when it comes to the sound quality of a re-encoded TrueHD to 640kbps DD vs TrueHD to 1.5mbps DTS. You will be able to send more than 2x the amount of information that would otherwise have been thrown away using the DD re-encode.

WRONG. You are doing the apples to apples thing again, and that is the wrong way to look at it. So if I take a clip of video and I want to put it on my harddrive and I re-encode it as VC1 at 12Mbps and on my other computer I do MPEG2 at 20Mbps, have I lost anything? They are two COMPLETELY DIFFERENT COMPRESSION FORMATS.

DTS and DD are nothing but COMPRESSION FORMATS used to compress PCM audio. Since they are COMPLETELY DIFFERENT, the numbers don't mean anything in relation to each other. So you are not throwing away more just because DD is at 640. There have been engineering tests done that show that 448 is as good from a compression standpoint at 1.5 DTS. 640 is BETTER than 448, so by that ration, 640 DD should be BETTER than 1.5 DTS. DD is just a more efficient codec in this case.

Just curious are you saying DTS should be recompressed to DTS vs DD?

If the original soundtrack is DTS, there is no reason it shouldn't come out as DTS. All your doing is creating confusion if you don't. Besides, the decoded soundtrack is the limit and it won't get any "better" by re-encoding it as something else. DTS soundtracks on HD DVD so far are no different than what we saw on DVD, there are just more 1.5 soundtracks.

I think DTheater fans might take issue with that statement

Why? D-Theater's Dolby soundtracks were lower than 640KBps. They never released full bitrate DD soundtracks on that format, though both DVD and D-Theater were capable of it. Pink Floyd just released the Pulse DVD with a 640KBps DD soundtrack.

WRONG. You are doing the apples to apples thing again, and that is the wrong way to look at it. So if I take a clip of video and I want to put it on my harddrive and I re-encode it as VC1 at 12Mbps and on my other computer I do MPEG2 at 20Mbps, have I lost anything? They are two COMPLETELY DIFFERENT COMPRESSION FORMATS.

DTS and DD are nothing but COMPRESSION FORMATS used to compress PCM audio. Since they are COMPLETELY DIFFERENT, the numbers don't mean anything in relation to each other. So you are not throwing away more just because DD is at 640. There have been engineering tests done that show that 448 is as good from a compression standpoint at 1.5 DTS. 640 is BETTER than 448, so by that ration, 640 DD should be BETTER than 1.5 DTS. DD is just a more efficient codec in this case.



If the original soundtrack is DTS, there is no reason it shouldn't come out as DTS. All your doing is creating confusion if you don't. Besides, the decoded soundtrack is the limit and it won't get any "better" by re-encoding it as something else. DTS soundtracks on HD DVD so far are no different than what we saw on DVD, there are just more 1.5 soundtracks.



Why? D-Theater's Dolby soundtracks were lower than 640KBps. They never released full bitrate DD soundtracks on that format, though both DVD and D-Theater were capable of it. Pink Floyd just released the Pulse DVD with a 640KBps DD soundtrack.

So kris, in lamens terms is there a problem with the audio for the xbox 360 hd dvd add on. If yes, can it be fixed by a upgrade. If no, should I take mine back and simply buy the toshiba hd player. Mine is still in box, waiting for my hd tv and to see how this mess plays itself out. New to this, however trying to keep up, feel like i'm back in school I've been studying this audio desrepancy for sometime now. Read so much, sorry if you already said this but are you happy with the audio for hd dvd's on the 360. Or, like all the others do you believe there is a problem. Thanks for all your posts very interesting.

In my setup the 360 doesn't sound near as good as my Toshiba. But the Toshiba is outputting audio via HDMI so I am not losing anything. TrueHD sounds good with the 360 but the DD+ soundtracks seem off balanced and the volume is low. In my friend's room they don't sound too bad, but still not to the right level. I would say the issue is a decoding problem, unless realtime encoders are having issues. Could be that the levels are being changed at some point in all the conversions as well. But something is going wrong.

If the original soundtrack is DTS, there is no reason it shouldn't come out as DTS.

True, I suppose, but assuming HD DVDs where the audio is decoded already, wouldn't it be best to output/compress it using the best format available (ie 640k DD)?

Now, if you're saying DTS should be passed untouched (no recompression) I can go along with that.

All your doing is creating confusion if you don't.

You've definitely got a point there.

Besides, the decoded soundtrack is the limit and it won't get any "better" by re-encoding it as something else.

I agree, partly. Partly because there are soundtracks on HD DVD that are better than whan the Xbox can output. Take for instance the TrueHD soundtracks, in this case the limiting factor is not the decoded track, but the format it's output in. In this case switching to a "better" compression format, could lead to an relative "improvement". It's a given that a lossy compression stage will introduce loss, but a different compression format might introduce less loss.

Though I agree that switching to DTS will not be an improvement.

DTS soundtracks on HD DVD so far are no different than what we saw on DVD, there are just more 1.5 soundtracks.

Yup, where as the Dolby tracks are different, better (theoretically) than what's on DVD.

Why? D-Theater's Dolby soundtracks were lower than 640KBps.

Hm, I though they were usually 640k, but I admit I'm not one of the DTheater-ites, but now that I think about it maybe it was Laserdisc? I'm just sure I've heard people talking about a previous format that used full-bitrate DD a lot.

HD DVD DTS --> Decoded on Xbox 360 --> Player sounds mixed in --> Re-encoded to DTS --> Output via SPDIF optical

why does this DTS track need to be re-encoded? is it some newer/higher bitrate version of DTS that is not backward compatible? (if so, why is it still called "DTS" ?)

In my setup the 360 doesn't sound near as good as my Toshiba. But the Toshiba is outputting audio via HDMI so I am not losing anything. TrueHD sounds good with the 360 but the DD+ soundtracks seem off balanced and the volume is low. In my friend's room they don't sound too bad, but still not to the right level. I would say the issue is a decoding problem, unless realtime encoders are having issues. Could be that the levels are being changed at some point in all the conversions as well. But something is going wrong.

I attended the Dallas AVS hd-dvd tour event last night and Amir indicated that as part of the new DTS decoding it could also fix some audio issues reported by some users. That answere went by rather fast so I'm not sure exactly what is addressed. Perhaps a DTS converson in and of itself doesn't guarantee that but in the process of that conversion they could be making some adjustments.

Amir also indicated that the DTS addition is done but has to wait for the Xbox team to implement it.

HD DVD DTS --> Decoded on Xbox 360 --> Player sounds mixed in --> Re-encoded to DTS --> Output via SPDIF optical

why does this DTS track need to be re-encoded? is it some newer/higher bitrate version of DTS that is not backward compatible? (if so, why is it still called "DTS" ?)

The reason is right in the text you quoted. I bolded it for you.

WRONG. You are doing the apples to apples thing again, and that is the wrong way to look at it. So if I take a clip of video and I want to put it on my harddrive and I re-encode it as VC1 at 12Mbps and on my other computer I do MPEG2 at 20Mbps, have I lost anything? They are two COMPLETELY DIFFERENT COMPRESSION FORMATS.

DTS and DD are nothing but COMPRESSION FORMATS used to compress PCM audio. Since they are COMPLETELY DIFFERENT, the numbers don't mean anything in relation to each other. So you are not throwing away more just because DD is at 640. There have been engineering tests done that show that 448 is as good from a compression standpoint at 1.5 DTS. 640 is BETTER than 448, so by that ration, 640 DD should be BETTER than 1.5 DTS. DD is just a more efficient codec in this case.


Yes you have lost something. That is the nature of lossy compression. What was lost will differ between the 2 compression algorithms. The differences in the 2 algorithms will become apparent as the bitrate of the 2 are reduced. VC1 being a more efficient algorithm will sustain a better picture at lower bitrates than mpeg2 but given a high enough bitrate mpeg2 will surpass VC1 if VC1 does not increase it's bitrate also. If both are increasing in bitrate then there will be a point where the perceived quality will become equal. VC-1 will reach that point ahead of mpeg2.

Try it for yourself, encode a 64kbps OGG audio file then a 64kbps MP3. The OGG file will generally sound better. Now keep the OGG file the same, and remake the MP3 at 320kbps and you will hear that the mp3 is clearly better than the 64kbps OGG file. The efficiency of the 2 algorithms did not change, the bitrate did. There just isn't enough bits given to the ogg file at 64kbps to accurately reproduce the original audio file (ie too much had to be thrown away to get to that bit rate). So while ogg is more efficient, without enough bits to try and rebuild the original audio, the sound quality drops when compared to a less efficient higher bitrate mp3.

Regardless of the engineering tests, I have yet to hear a DD track that has surpassed or equaled a 1/2 rate DTS track on any DVD I own or rented. Now assuming what you say is true that DD 448kbps is equal to DTS 1.5mbps in terms of compression effiency. Who cares? I could care less if DD 448k can compress about the same data as DTS at 1.5m. What matters more is if DTS sounds better to me than DD because of what the algorithms are deciding to throw away to achieve the desired bitrate. Different mixes also factor into the perceived sound quality but until I get to hear a movie mixed from the same source and re-encoded in both DD and DTS I can only go by my personal experience and that is no DD track on DVD has equaled or surpassed the DTS one, so bring on the DTS encoding option :).

wow, you have no idea what your talking about, do you?

Wow, lots of true statements that fail to make a point.

Yes you have lost something. That is the nature of lossy compression. What was lost will differ between the 2 compression algorithms.

I am 100% certain that Kris understands the implications of lossy compression, probably far better than most of us here.

The differences in the 2 algorithms will become apparent as the bitrate of the 2 are reduced. VC1 being a more efficient algorithm will sustain a better picture at lower bitrates than mpeg2 but given a high enough bitrate mpeg2 will surpass VC1 if VC1 does not increase it's bitrate also.



If both are increasing in bitrate then there will be a point where the perceived quality will become equal. VC-1 will reach that point ahead of mpeg2.

And the same for DD and DTS, and 640k for DD and 1.5Mbps for DTS are probably beyond that point.

Try it for yourself, encode a 64kbps OGG audio file then a 64kbps MP3. The OGG file will generally sound better. Now keep the OGG file the same, and remake the MP3 at 320kbps and you will hear that the mp3 is clearly better than the 64kbps OGG file. The efficiency of the 2 algorithms did not change, the bitrate did. There just isn't enough bits given to the ogg file at 64kbps to accurately reproduce the original audio file (ie too much had to be thrown away to get to that bit rate). So while ogg is more efficient, without enough bits to try and rebuild the original audio, the sound quality drops when compared to a less efficient higher bitrate mp3.

What's your point? 448k DD, and especially not the 640k DD the 360 outputs is not bit starved.

Regardless of the engineering tests, I have yet to hear a DD track that has surpassed or equaled a 1/2 rate DTS track on any DVD I own or rented.

That's not a valid comparison of the codecs though. Your conclusions only apply to the tracks on the DVD, and cannot be further applied to the codecs, because there are no guarantees that the tracks are identical except for the compression.

Now assuming what you say is true that DD 448kbps is equal to DTS 1.5mbps in terms of compression effiency. Who cares?

The point is that many, many people seem to expect a simple switch to DTS to magically change the sound of the 360, that's just not going to happen.

I could care less if DD 448k can compress about the same data as DTS at 1.5m. What matters more is if DTS sounds better to me than DD because of what the algorithms are deciding to throw away to achieve the desired bitrate.

There is no evidence that's the case, none. The only evidence is that there are some better DTS tracks out there than their counterpart DD tracks. And that point is not argued.

However that does not mean DTS will sound better, or even different than DD if the 360 provides a DTS output option.

Different mixes also factor into the perceived sound quality but until I get to hear a movie mixed from the same source and re-encoded in both DD and DTS I can only go by my personal experience and that is no DD track on DVD has equaled or surpassed the DTS one, so bring on the DTS encoding option :).

But your experience with DTS on DVDs has no bearing on what will happen if DTS is added as an output option on the 360. All evidence is that there will be no appreciable difference between the two.

But your experience with DTS on DVDs has no bearing on what will happen if DTS is added as an output option on the 360. All evidence is that there will be no appreciable difference between the two.
Let's not be so hasty. There is no evidence either way at this point.

I will take the optimistic stance and say the flatness on certain discs with DD+ --> DD transcodes on the Xbox 360 may be rectified, either with DTS output alone, or with both DD and DTS output. I hope so at least anyway.

FWIW, DD+ --> DTS sounds better (or at least very different) on the Toshiba HD-A1 as compared to Xbox 360, and it isn't just the overall volume. Amir acknowledges this, and claims the update will make the Xbox 360's sound comparable.

Let's not be so hasty. There is no evidence either way at this point.

A lot of people are assuming DTS == better.

I will take the optimistic stance and say the flatness on certain discs with DD+ --> DD transcodes

First off, IMO, transcoding isn't the right term IMO. Transcoding implies a direct conversion from one format to another, usually in order to meet some sort of limitation.

The Xbox 360 HD DVD Player, as all HD DVD players, does a lot more than that, it's not merely converting form one format to another, it's decoding so that the different audio streams can be mixed, and then must encode that to send it over S/PDIF.

I make the distinction because it's important, transcoding implies a 1-step process (oversimplifying), you do some configuration and hit go. But the Xbox 360 HD DVD Player does much more than that, it decodes the DD+ audio, then it mixes it with interactive audio, and finally it realtime-encodes to 640k DD for S/PDIF output.

There are a number of distinct places where that process could go wrong, let's investigate them:
Realtime encoding to DD - This step is often maligned on this forum, due to an (irrational, IMO) prejudice against DD and for DTS. There's a general "feeling"/thought that it's the DD encoding that's the problem but let's really look at it. It's basically accepted (I believe) that the output for games is great, I recall few, if any complaints about it. For HD DVDs, Dolby TrueHD soundtracks are reportedly excellent, and it's even been said DTS tracks "sounds like DTS" despite being converted to DD.

All that indicates to me that there is a very, very low probability that there's anything wrong, or any sort of "problem" with the DD encoding.

Realtime mixing of soundtrack with interactivity - Now it's conceivable that in this process there's something going awry and as a result the audio is compromised, but to look deeper, again, Dolby TrueHD and DTS tracks are reportedly fine. Again, it would seem unlikely that this is the culprit of any degradation.

Decoding of the main audio track - This is really the only other place that the audio could be degraded. This is also the most likely, why? Look at the known information, Dolby TrueHD tracks, and DTS tracks are reportedly fine. It would appear that decoding, mixing, and encoding of those are occuring without any issues. Assuming, as is most likely, that the mixing and encoding are done the same regardless of codec, since they are operating on raw PCM and need no knowledge of the source codec, that leaves one possible place for any audio degradation to occur, the decoding of the Dolby Digital Plus audio stream.

on the Xbox 360 may be rectified, either with DTS output alone, or with both DD and DTS output. I hope so at least anyway.

I hope the issue is resolved as well, but there is almost NO chance simply switching to DTS output will fix it, as it is very, very, unlikely that the DD encoder is the problem.

It seems most likely that they need to look at their DD+ decoder to fix the issue. I certainly hope they don't just throw DTS on there and call it fixed.

FWIW, DD+ --> DTS sounds better (or at least very different) on the Toshiba HD-A1 as compared to Xbox 360, and it isn't just the overall volume.

Apples and oranges my friend, apples and oranges. First off it's not a DD+ to DTS conversion, and second, there are too many variables, and unknown quanties to draw any sort of conclusions beyond the A1 as a system provides better DD+ output than the 360 as a system.

The A1 uses BOTH a different DD+ decoder, and a different lossy compressor, than the 360, so potentially either one could be the source of the difference. But as we've examined above, it's highly unlikely that it's the 360's DD encoder that's the problem. Much more likely the A1's DD+ decoder is doing something differnetly/better than the 360's DD+ decoder and that's the source of the difference.

Let me ask you this:
If you compare Dolby TrueHD or DTS tracks on the A1 vs 360, is the differenece still there?

If so, then that would lead credence to the DTS output being superior, but still not conclusive since the A1 uses different DTHD/DTS decoders from the 360.

If they're the same, that all but proves it's not a DD encoder issue, as it indicates that the DD output on the 360 is equal to the DTS output on the A1, assuming the same input.

Amir acknowledges this, and claims the update will make the Xbox 360's sound comparable.

And I hope they fix it, but I just hope they do more than add DTS.

Actually in a way, I'd like it if they did only add DTS, it would be interesting to see the reactions of the DTS proponents here if the update was released and the problem persisted with DTS.

As it stands I "fear", that DTS support will be added, in addition to fixing any issues, and people will give DTS more credit it doesn't deserve.

Few questions for the qualified:

I think it's safe to assume that some day, Toshiba and/or Microsoft and/or some other HD DVD hardware manufacturer will at some point have an HDMI 1.3 output option. As we all know, HDMI 1.3 would allow for a faithful representation of Dolby TrueHD or DTS-HD for HD DVD.

My question is - since HD DVD players always have to mix sounds from different soundtracks and effects together and output the mix (req'd for IME) - doesn't this imply that HD DVD players will ALWAYS have to decode for HD DVD material, even for TrueHD?

If this is the case, what would be the point of having a receiver that can decode Dolby TrueHD, or DTS-HD, for example? It seems to me that any HD DVD player sending 'bitstream' straight from the HD DVD for external decoding would be out of spec.

After mixing, the HD DVD player could either re-encode into a format or send the PCM mix uncompressed. Since PCM sounds like the better option from an AQ point of view (rather than re-encode and send bitstream), is any amp with HDMI 1.3 input and 7.1 channels output "technically" enough to enjoy the intended benefit of Dolby TrueHD, even if it doesn't "decode" Dolby TrueHD? (Differences in amp quality aside, of course.)

EDIT: Or if the HD DVD hardware can output 7.1 analog PCM, is a 7.1 channel amp with 7.1 analog pre-inputs also "enough?"

Few questions for the qualified:

I think it's safe to assume that some day, Toshiba and/or Microsoft and/or some other HD DVD hardware manufacturer will at some point have an HDMI 1.3 output option. As we all know, HDMI 1.3 would allow for a faithful representation of Dolby TrueHD or DTS-HD for HD DVD.

My question is - since HD DVD players always have to mix sounds from different soundtracks and effects together and output the mix (req'd for IME) - doesn't this imply that HD DVD players will ALWAYS have to decode for HD DVD material, even for TrueHD?

I believe it's been stated/suggested that it's possible to build a player that can bypass the mixing and send a bitstream out HDMI 1.3.

But yes, you're basically correct, SOP for HD DVD players will be to decode everything internally.

If this is the case, what would be the point of having a receiver that can decode Dolby TrueHD, or DTS-HD, for example? It seems to me that any HD DVD player sending 'bitstream' straight from the HD DVD for external decoding would be out of spec.

You've hit the nail on the head! The importance of, and the need for, HDMI 1.3 is way, way overblown. In reality, there's nothing that HDMI 1.3 can do, that can't be done today with HDMI 1.1a, at least as far as HD DVD/Blu-ray go. All it will do is allow the decoding to be pushed off to the reciever, but since HDMI is a digital connection, it really makes no difference which side of the cable the decoding is done on.

After mixing, the HD DVD player could either re-encode into a format or send the PCM mix uncompressed.

Correct.

Since PCM sounds like the better option from an AQ point of view (rather than re-encode and send bitstream), is any amp with HDMI 1.3 input and 7.1 channels output "technically" enough to enjoy the intended benefit of Dolby TrueHD, even if it doesn't "decode" Dolby TrueHD? (Differences in amp quality aside, of course.)

Any amp with HDMI 1.1 or better is enough to enjoy the "full benefit" of all the new sound formats. Many are doing this today with their HD-A1's and HDMI recievers/processors.

HDMI 1.1 can pass multichannel PCM (up to 8 channels of 24bit/96k audio I believe). To put it simply and concisely:

You don't need HDMI 1.3 to fully benefit from Dolby TrueHD, an HDMI 1.1 reciever and a player (Like the A1) is all you need.

EDIT: Or if the HD DVD hardware can output 7.1 analog PCM, is a 7.1 channel amp with 7.1 analog pre-inputs also "enough?"

That's another option. The HD A1 can give you full Dolby TrueHD over analog or HDMI. Though I believe the HD-A1 and all current HD DVDs are limited to 5.1 (there are no 7.1 soundtracks out there that I'm aware of).

And to bring this jaunt back OT, the 360 is limited in that it doesn't have HDMI or multichannel analog, so it's best output is full-bitrate DD.

And to bring this jaunt back OT, the 360 is limited in that it doesn't have HDMI or multichannel analog, so it's best output is full-bitrate DD.
Thanks for the responses!

I think the issues you mentioned with the 360 will be rectified in some way by MS before too long -- if not for the audio, then for the video. I realize this is an audio thread; but for HD video, HDMI will make life easier for a lot of people. I know that studios aren't implementing the ICT yet, but when they do, hi resolutions via component or VGA become a no-go. (I realize that for an A/V junkie who knows how to buy a properly de-interlacing 1080p display it's not an issue since you're talking about 24fps source, but hey... why have that marketing strike against you?)

I'm wondering if those of us with receivers that can decode WMA Pro would see any improvement in quality if the newer DD or DTS soundtracks were re-encoded to WMA Pro?

I'm wondering if those of us with receivers that can decode WMA Pro would see any improvement in quality if the newer DD or DTS soundtracks were re-encoded to WMA Pro?
WMA Pro?

That's like 0.00001% of receivers. Not worth the hassle.

WMA Pro?

That's like 0.00001% of receivers. Not worth the hassle.

And what do you think the installed base of HDMI 1.3 is?
I just purchased my second Pioneer receiver with the capability so I guess the big boys just added the feature on a whim.

What's the deal with those posting things like this? Does this fix the 10 dB level problem on HD DVD playback on the 360?

I can't remember what I posted last to this so....

I tried this recently, cranked it up all the way. Tonight I had a chance to fire up Sky Captain, which I have on DVD, and which has DD+ and DTS tracks on the HD DVD. After a bit of fiddling I hand them synced so I could swap back and forth.

Even with the "fix" in place, the DD+ track was significantly lower than the DVD or DTS tracks. I'd still estimate about 10dB, maybe more. From what I can tell, that volume control doesn't have any effect on HD DVD, there was definitely not a "70%" difference between it's original setting and maxed out.

So no, that doesn't fix it. I do have a couple theories about the difference though:

First, it seems like perhaps, the 10dB boost the LFE channel is supposed to get, isn't being applied. Like some others have noted, even with the DVD DD and HD DVD DD+ tracks matched (by ear/guess), the LFE (and I use that term very loosely) seemed to be "less" on the DD+.

The other one is perhaps there's something wonky going on with Dialnorm or DRC with the DD tracks, perhaps getting applied twice (once by the 360 and once by the external processor), or something....

Switching to DTS on the HD DVD eliminated any issues, in fact, it may have been better than the DVD DD track, though I hesitate to really draw that conclusion because my SPL meter is temporarily out of commission (left it on and killed the batt), so I was unable, and frankly didn't feel like it, to do a rigorous comparison.

That said, I feel more confident in my theory that it's not the DD encoding that's at fault, but something with the DD+ decoding in the 360 that's not right. Hopefully they fix the DD+ decoding before they bother with adding DTS.

And what do you think the installed base of HDMI 1.3 is?
I just purchased my second Pioneer receiver with the capability so I guess the big boys just added the feature on a whim.
HDMI isn't even supported by the Xbox 360, so its discussion is moot for this thread.

However, I will just add that while WMA Pro is pretty much irrelevant in the real world, HDMI 1.3 support isn't. It is the standard that new players will support, both on the Blu-ray side and the HD DVD side.

I watched Phantom of the Opera HD-DVD on my Pioneer VSX-815 via the XBOX 360 HD-DVD add on which was connected via optical cable with Dolby TrueHD selected so as to get the richness of the higher quality audio even though it was down rezzing the audio to regular DD and it sounded awesome on my 5.1!

I watched the same movie with everything being the same as mentioned above but with my new Onkyo TX-SR674 (optical again, TrueHD etc) and I maxed out the volume and it stunk! It sounded very low?

Both receivers were calibrated with an SPL, same room and same speakers.

Gets even more weird! I watched Stealth via PS3 thru Onkyo's HDMI and LPCM selected and it sounded insane awesome! Can't use the Pioneer for PS3 because no HDMI.

Anyways, what happened with Phantom? I even tried playing with the crossovers and it didn't make a difference.

Could it be that the Levels are set too low with the Onkyo? Also, I was actually shocked to see that the Onkyo had "Max" settings for the volume where my Pioneer didn't nor could I ever had maxed out Pioneer's receiver.

Holy Confused Batman!!

So the only reason people "think" DTS tracks on dvd's sound better is only because the mixers turned the track volume up a few notches? That would be interesting, because I dont get the same "placebo" effect when I turn up a DD track. Besides that, most of the people who would care if a dvd had a DTS track, are on this forum. The general public doesnt care or even know what it is. So the DD advocates here dont have to worry about DTS being blindly favored over DD on a real world scale. This is like an ATi vs. nVidia thread :rolleyes:

So the only reason people "think" DTS tracks on dvd's sound better is only because the mixers turned the track volume up a few notches?

Well there's a couple things, but really the biggest one is that DD usually applies a -4dB Dialog Normalization on decoding, while DTS does not, thus the DTS track is usually 4dB louder.

That there is probably the primary reason most think DTS is better because when they switch back and forth between, DTS is louder, and people always (within reason) pick the louder option as the better option. So this likely skews most "quick and dirty" self tests.

The other big reason is there's almost a mythology that goes with DTS, in that it's basically become accepted that DTS is better, to the point where most don't even question it.

And finally, often the DTS track is different in some way from the DD track, such that some times the DTS track really is better than the DD track, but the fact is lost that that difference isn't due to the codecs, but the content that that codec compresses.

That would be interesting, because I dont get the same "placebo" effect when I turn up a DD track.

The mind is a very powerful thing, and often works in unexpected ways. There are a number of factors that go into the effect you describe. But the two biggest are that you know that you're turning the volume up, and you know which track you're listening to. As such it's quite easy for your brain to trick you.

This is why Double Blind tests are the standard for scientific studies, and not sighted tests. Look into it sometime, it's really quite interesting. In audio it happens a lot that differences that are "obvious" or "night and day" completely disappear when one no longer knows which is which.

Besides that, most of the people who would care if a dvd had a DTS track, are on this forum. The general public doesnt care or even know what it is.

I think you underestimate the name recognition of DTS. True, most people probably have no clue about the differences between them, heck many probably don't even know how to pick between them, but I'd venture DTS is a rather well known name, it has to be or it wouldn't be used on so many things.

So the DD advocates here dont have to worry about DTS being blindly favored over DD on a real world scale.

That's not really the issue, I don't worry that DD will go anywhere, it's the standard, and it is so for a reason. But when I see threads/topics like this where people are clamoring for DTS "because it's better", or expecting DTS to fix things that aren't broken, well...

This is like an ATi vs. nVidia thread :rolleyes:

Actually that's a pretty accurate analog of the real situation, both options with their strenghts and weaknesses, but at the end of the day, there's not much differnece as far as the end user goes.

In reality, I think it's much more like Intel vs AMD, especially for the time it was Netburst vs K8. Cranked up, they could both perform greatly, but the K8 was faster at lower clock speeds, for less money, while Netburst required drastically higher clocks speed and higher cost for the same performance. Yet Intel would probably be considerd the premier solution by most people.

The DD+ --> DD decode issue is real. It is not just a matter of volumes.

That said, I find the audio lag issue much more annoying. Both are potential deal killer problems though depending on your perspective.

The DD+ --> DD decode issue is real. It is not just a matter of volumes.

DD+ decoding issues is real, I agree. Like I said in my above post, there's something different beyond volume, probably.

But I'm still convinced it's got nothing to do with the DD encoding, or everything on the 360 would suffer.

Any updates from MS (i.e. an ETA for the fix.. maybe?) ;)

I think wednesdays are patch days.

here is a messag amir sent me: (his response in red...)

Originally Posted by ahartig
A few more questions for you:

will the 360 hddvd drive dts update output the downmixed DD+ and TRUEHD signal to a 1.5 mbps DTS signal?

Yes.

Quote:
will it address the slight audio lag associated with truehd?

That is a bug that we are chasing and will fix regardless of DTS feature above.

Quote:
and most importantly, when will we it be available?

thanks again,

Alex

I don't have a schedule yet. But I am hoping it is within the next 3 months.

A lot of people are assuming DTS == better.



First off, IMO, transcoding isn't the right term IMO. Transcoding implies a direct conversion from one format to another, usually in order to meet some sort of limitation.

The Xbox 360 HD DVD Player, as all HD DVD players, does a lot more than that, it's not merely converting form one format to another, it's decoding so that the different audio streams can be mixed, and then must encode that to send it over S/PDIF.

I make the distinction because it's important, transcoding implies a 1-step process (oversimplifying), you do some configuration and hit go. But the Xbox 360 HD DVD Player does much more than that, it decodes the DD+ audio, then it mixes it with interactive audio, and finally it realtime-encodes to 640k DD for S/PDIF output.

There are a number of distinct places where that process could go wrong, let's investigate them:
Realtime encoding to DD - This step is often maligned on this forum, due to an (irrational, IMO) prejudice against DD and for DTS. There's a general "feeling"/thought that it's the DD encoding that's the problem but let's really look at it. It's basically accepted (I believe) that the output for games is great, I recall few, if any complaints about it. For HD DVDs, Dolby TrueHD soundtracks are reportedly excellent, and it's even been said DTS tracks "sounds like DTS" despite being converted to DD.

All that indicates to me that there is a very, very low probability that there's anything wrong, or any sort of "problem" with the DD encoding.

Realtime mixing of soundtrack with interactivity - Now it's conceivable that in this process there's something going awry and as a result the audio is compromised, but to look deeper, again, Dolby TrueHD and DTS tracks are reportedly fine. Again, it would seem unlikely that this is the culprit of any degradation.

Decoding of the main audio track - This is really the only other place that the audio could be degraded. This is also the most likely, why? Look at the known information, Dolby TrueHD tracks, and DTS tracks are reportedly fine. It would appear that decoding, mixing, and encoding of those are occuring without any issues. Assuming, as is most likely, that the mixing and encoding are done the same regardless of codec, since they are operating on raw PCM and need no knowledge of the source codec, that leaves one possible place for any audio degradation to occur, the decoding of the Dolby Digital Plus audio stream.



I hope the issue is resolved as well, but there is almost NO chance simply switching to DTS output will fix it, as it is very, very, unlikely that the DD encoder is the problem.

It seems most likely that they need to look at their DD+ decoder to fix the issue. I certainly hope they don't just throw DTS on there and call it fixed.



Apples and oranges my friend, apples and oranges. First off it's not a DD+ to DTS conversion, and second, there are too many variables, and unknown quanties to draw any sort of conclusions beyond the A1 as a system provides better DD+ output than the 360 as a system.

The A1 uses BOTH a different DD+ decoder, and a different lossy compressor, than the 360, so potentially either one could be the source of the difference. But as we've examined above, it's highly unlikely that it's the 360's DD encoder that's the problem. Much more likely the A1's DD+ decoder is doing something differnetly/better than the 360's DD+ decoder and that's the source of the difference.

Let me ask you this:
If you compare Dolby TrueHD or DTS tracks on the A1 vs 360, is the differenece still there?

If so, then that would lead credence to the DTS output being superior, but still not conclusive since the A1 uses different DTHD/DTS decoders from the 360.

If they're the same, that all but proves it's not a DD encoder issue, as it indicates that the DD output on the 360 is equal to the DTS output on the A1, assuming the same input.



And I hope they fix it, but I just hope they do more than add DTS.

Actually in a way, I'd like it if they did only add DTS, it would be interesting to see the reactions of the DTS proponents here if the update was released and the problem persisted with DTS.

As it stands I "fear", that DTS support will be added, in addition to fixing any issues, and people will give DTS more credit it doesn't deserve.

Great post, informative and unbiased with any assumptions/opinions clearly stated.

A breath of fresh air, thanks!

3 months??? .................

Ah crap... 3 months? Considering M$ is now battling the PS3, you'd think they would do everything in their power to push the x360/hd-dvd format... Come on already! I was seriously considering picking up one of these drives, but wanted to see how the DD+ & lag issue panned out.. Guess I'll be waiting

3 months for DTS to be added....it does NOT say 3 months to fix the DD+ issue.

Jonathan

3 months for DTS to be added....it does NOT say 3 months to fix the DD+ issue.

Jonathan

I am not quite sure that Amir or other MS insider has acknowledged the DD+ issue to date....am I wrong or is this one of the many bugs the MS team is fixing? :confused:

I am not quite sure that Amir or other MS insider has acknowledged the DD+ issue to date....am I wrong or is this one of the many bugs the MS team is fixing? :confused:

Good point. I have seen references to suggest they are "investigating" it but not confirmation.

What lag issue?

What lag issue?
Agreed, all my HD DVD movies have played flawlessly on my 360 addon.

Batman Begins, Serenity, Superman Returns, MI:3, King Kong.

Tom Crews

Agreed, all my HD DVD movies have played flawlessly on my 360 addon.

Batman Begins, Serenity, Superman Returns, MI:3, King Kong.

Tom Crews


TrueHD tracks appear to have a slight lag. It's more pronounced the bigger the screen.

TrueHD tracks appear to have a slight lag. It's more pronounced the bigger the screen.
That makes no sense to me. How would screen size affect it?

57" TV with no issues. Not huge by any means but not small either.

Tom Crews

I haven't experienced any lag at all.

3 months is a long time, but oh well considering I'm going to be getting my stand alone player, it won't matter here shortly.

That makes no sense to me. How would screen size affect it?

57" TV with no issues. Not huge by any means but not small either.

Tom Crews

I don't notice it on a 32" but do on my 96" projector screen.

3 month?!! You are kidding!

*Knocking-on-Microsofts-head* Hello, anybody at home!

3 weeks is acceptable but not 3 month! In my area people are already selling the drives because of the crushed dynamics - in 3 weeks I will sell mine! I will not watch HD movies on christmas with Mickey Mouse Sound!

3 months... Global spring Dashboard update? I was afraid of that. We can hope for earlier though.

However, while I don't like the audio "flatness" issue, what is making me consider returning my unit is the lag issue. I have until early January to do so (assuming they'll even take it back, given that I have opened my King Kong HD DVD).

OTOH, what's tempering that is the fact that the Xbox 360's video playback and audio handling is software based, and this is potentially correctable with just a software update, as well as the fact that Microsoft is aware of the existence of these issues and acknowledges them. Furthermore, given the relatively low cost of the unit (US$175 here with remote, King King HD DVD, and King King game in my case), it's not a huge amount of money.

If I had paid CAD$699 for the HD-A1 and had similar issues, I'd be p!ssed right off. There's no way I would have kept the HD-A1 at that price, given its issues. (Actually, I paid a little over US$200 for the HD-A1 and still returned it.)


I don't notice it on a 32" but do on my 96" projector screen.
It has nothing to do with the screen size.

Perhaps your 32" has some inherent video lag. If so, then you will notice the Xbox 360's HD DVD audio lag less.

BTW, the lag is present not just on TrueHD. It's also present with DD+ tracks, albeit it's much less noticeable on DD+. Check out this thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=751752) for more information.

It has nothing to do with the screen size.

Perhaps your 32" has some inherent video lag. If so, then you will notice the Xbox 360's HD DVD audio lag less.

BTW, the lag is present not just on TrueHD. It's also present with DD+ tracks, albeit it's much less noticeable on DD+. Check out this thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=751752) for more information.

The 32" doesn't have any video lag, I've noticed the slight difference of sync on multiple displays according to size, I'm not saying it's there on one and not another, audio lag is more 'noticable' on a larger screen though imo.

3 months at the end of the year... Hmm... I guess Microsoft people do take their time off to be with their family and loved ones (or the DTS people to help with porting the DTS encoder, or the Dolby people to help diagnose the dynamic range issues).

Hong.

3 months for hopefully fixed audio? Damn. They better give us an option to output at different resolution based on game or movie.

I think it would be a big mistake to wait 3 months to address the sound issues on the HD DVD addon. Most opinions on the picture quality are unanimous in saying that it holds up very well to the standalone players; audio quality however is not so well received. Reading on the forums on www.dvdtimes.co.uk the sound issues are being mentioned there as well and many are not impressed.

MS needs to get the patch out there now to take advantage of the momentum HD DVD has at the moment. And the 360 also has to have all the weapons in its arsenal firing when the inevitable comparisons are done with the ps3 and the HDMI question comes up.

When I met Amir, he said that the DTS encoder is done, but they are at the mercy of the xbox group to release it. Nothing they can do about that.

Also have you guys experimented in boosting the LFE 10dB+ for the dynamic range compression issue?

When I met Amir, he said that the DTS encoder is done, but they are at the mercy of the xbox group to release it. Nothing they can do about that.

Also have you guys experimented in boosting the LFE 10dB+ for the dynamic range compression issue?

Does not solve the issue.

I think it would be a big mistake to wait 3 months to address the sound issues on the HD DVD addon. Most opinions on the picture quality are unanimous in saying that it holds up very well to the standalone players; audio quality however is not so well received. Reading on the forums on www.dvdtimes.co.uk the sound issues are being mentioned there as well and many are not impressed.

MS needs to get the patch out there now to take advantage of the momentum HD DVD has at the moment. And the 360 also has to have all the weapons in its arsenal firing when the inevitable comparisons are done with the ps3 and the HDMI question comes up.

Did Amir acknowledged that there is a problem with lipsync on TrueHD and DD+ flat dynamic ? And is the new DTS encoder a work around for these problems or is there a separate fix?

Three months is not acceptable in the middle of a war. Even when your winning! Get with guys. Don't pull a Sony.

Three months is not acceptable in the middle of a war. Even when your winning! Get with guys. Don't pull a Sony.


hey i have to give credit where credit is due. the ps3 update today fixes (somewhat) the scaling issues with 1080i televisions. that's not bad just 3 weeks after launch...


EDIT: oops, looks like i gave credit too early. the update apparently does nothing to fix any of the scaling problems...sorry for the false alarm...

hey i have to give credit where credit is due. the ps3 update today fixes (somewhat) the scaling issues with 1080i televisions. that's not bad just 3 weeks after launch...
No it doesn't.

Just finished watching Aeon Flux and I have to sya its the best PQ I've seen so far on the HD, through the xbox 360 add-on. The DD+ track is a different story. It has a DTS too, and I have switched and played with it for about an hour. Everything sound the same, I do have to turn up the receiever when switching to DD+, I have a sound meter so I know it's at the same level. It all sounds good untill the action starts. Explosions and basically all action scenes get muted and quiet instantly. It feels as if the xbox "bogs" down. It's like the 360 cant keep up with the sound. Kinda like when a game has slowdowns do to too much on-screen action. I hope they're able to fix it.

Has anyone tried using the stereo feed from the 360 into ProLogic II with a HD film ?
Does it sound any better than the compressed (?) DD+ ?

hey i have to give credit where credit is due. the ps3 update today fixes (somewhat) the scaling issues with 1080i televisions. that's not bad just 3 weeks after launch...

The update does NOT enable scaling of 720p content to 1080i, which was the issue reported.

And this is not relevant to the topic.

Did Amir acknowledged that there is a problem with lipsync on TrueHD and DD+ flat dynamic ? And is the new DTS encoder a work around for these problems or is there a separate fix?

When I contacted Amir he did state he would forward the issues to the team involved for investigation. I think since then he has acknowledged that all reported issues are being looked at. Whether these issues will be addressed in the DTS update is not clear (at least to my knowledge).

I know Amir and the Xbox team are trying hard and am encouraged that they are listening and thank them for that. Lets hope it wont be a long wait for the update.

Has anyone tried using the stereo feed from the 360 into ProLogic II with a HD film ?
Does it sound any better than the compressed (?) DD+ ?
I tried this, and it sounded even worse (especially in terms of the soundscape). Seems to make sense, since the initial process of converting from DD+ to something the Xbox understands is still the same, regardless.

Here's something else interesting. I watched Superman Returns with the TrueHD soundtrack on the add-on. Just about all of the background news reporting going on in the movie (as a backdrop to the main action) sounded practically muted, as if there's some soundfield or mixing issue too. I had to turn on the subtitles to understand what was being said. I felt that there's no way the mix on the disc would be like that, so I tried a stand-alone player. With the stand-alone player, this issue went away and the background dialog was at an understandable level (like in the theater). Then I tried the DD+ soundtrack on both players and it was the same. I think there's a combination of different sound problems with the add-on. Has anyone else noticed this?

I tried this, and it sounded even worse (especially in terms of the soundscape). Seems to make sense, since the initial process of converting from DD+ to something the Xbox understands is still the same, regardless.

Here's something else interesting. I watched Superman Returns with the TrueHD soundtrack on the add-on. Just about all of the background news reporting going on in the movie (as a backdrop to the main action) sounded practically muted, as if there's some soundfield or mixing issue too. I had to turn on the subtitles to understand what was being said. I felt that there's no way the mix on the disc would be like that, so I tried a stand-alone player. With the stand-alone player, this issue went away and the background dialog was at an understandable level (like in the theater). Then I tried the DD+ soundtrack on both players and it was the same. I think there's a combination of different sound problems with the add-on. Has anyone else noticed this?


Which scene was it?

I know that this will be useless info......I just want to gripe too.

Just did the 'ol switch back and forth between reg DVD (Mi3) and HD DVD. Lips seemed to be on but sound had no range on the HDDVD.

done griping sorry to re-post what has been posted a hundred times. Can't wait till they fix this 159.99 paper weight.

Can't wait till they fix this 159.99 paper weight.


that is a moronic statement and has managed to lose you what little credibility you've gathered to this point...

I beg to differ. Both my friend and I have purchased this and can't see the point in watching a movie that sounds like your local news broadcast. So once again... I can't wait till they fix this 159.99 paper weight.

I guess you may like it as long as you are plugging it into your kraco stereo. (substitute kraco for kemwood, sorny, panaphonics and westinghouse)

I beg to differ. Both my friend and I have purchased this and can't see the point in watching a movie that sounds like your local news broadcast. So once again... I can't wait till they fix this 159.99 paper weight.

I guess you may like it as long as you are plugging it into your kraco stereo. (substitute kraco for kemwood, sorny, panaphonics and westinghouse)

I'm no audiophile (my sound system consists of Logitech Z5500's) and I can still tell that the sound isn't all it should be. So i'm guessing it isn't any better at the moment with home theatre in a box setups than it is with proper audiophile setups.

I beg to differ. Both my friend and I have purchased this and can't see the point in watching a movie that sounds like your local news broadcast. So once again... I can't wait till they fix this 159.99 paper weight.

I guess you may like it as long as you are plugging it into your kraco stereo. (substitute kraco for kemwood, sorny, panaphonics and westinghouse)
well as long as you're not exaggerating....

I have to agree. The sound, mostly in action scene, is very lacking. A patch betterbe coming soon.

well as long as you're not exaggerating....




k... so I am exaggerating a little, but the movie watching experience (for me at least) is seriously degraded when a movie has a bad audio track. ie. movies with dolby or stereo sound tracks just don't do it for me. So when I turned on MI3 on HDDVD and the sound was flat and seemed to have no depth whatsoever I was pissed. So until a fix is posted I will just let it sit on top of my XBOX collecting dust because I will not be able to enjoy those movies.


And for the guy that said it was moronic... He must be one of those guys that has the cool gadgets like bluray and hddvd and has them connected to his 13" toystory TV... pumping out the 6 watts per channel must make these movies sound incredible.

The flat audio needs fixed ASAP, i really notice it when going from regular DVD to HD-DVD, always have to add about 15% more volume to get the same oompf from the audio.

k... so I am exaggerating a little, but the movie watching experience (for me at least) is seriously degraded when a movie has a bad audio track. ie. movies with dolby or stereo sound tracks just don't do it for me. So when I turned on MI3 on HDDVD and the sound was flat and seemed to have no depth whatsoever I was pissed. So until a fix is posted I will just let it sit on top of my XBOX collecting dust because I will not be able to enjoy those movies.

only DD+ tracks seem flat to me. DD, DTS, or TrueHD sound great. have you had problems with those encodes too?? i've only got 5 HD-DVDs right now, do most only have a DD+ track?

Now I just have a question that might have been answered but I did not look into all the of pages so sorry if this has been talked about before.

How many people use the Optical audio out? I have used it once on my 360 not with the hd-dvd add on but man did that make a difference in sound quality and also how loud it gets at a lower volume. I was really impressed but from what I have been reading I would guess it still sounds flat and crappy?

The flat audio needs fixed ASAP, i really notice it when going from regular DVD to HD-DVD, always have to add about 15% more volume to get the same oompf from the audio.

That's the most fustrating issue with the add-on rite now. The nagging issue with DD+ is driving me up the wall!

Amir please convince the Xbox team to provide us with an audio fix as soon as possible...

Now I just have a question that might have been answered but I did not look into all the of pages so sorry if this has been talked about before.

How many people use the Optical audio out? I have used it once on my 360 not with the hd-dvd add on but man did that make a difference in sound quality and also how loud it gets at a lower volume. I was really impressed but from what I have been reading I would guess it still sounds flat and crappy?


yeah, it sounds bad over the optical connection. I would guess that 90 percent of people on this forum using the 360 HD drive are hooked up this way. It isn't just a volume issue, it's the sound quality as well. The DVD version blows away the HD version, and it has been noted by microsoft and will be fixed. Hopefully sooner than 3 months from now though

Now I just have a question that might have been answered but I did not look into all the of pages so sorry if this has been talked about before.

How many people use the Optical audio out?

Probably most around here.

I have used it once on my 360 not with the hd-dvd add on but man did that make a difference in sound quality and also how loud it gets at a lower volume. I was really impressed but from what I have been reading I would guess it still sounds flat and crappy?

There's defintitely something wrong with it, that's for sure. But don't listen to these people too much, many here have a way of "overstating" differences, to say the least.

If you've got the DVD to compare to it will be pretty obvious. If you watch a lot of moves, and somewhat high volume, you might notice something's off, the stuff that should be really dynamic, isn't.

But it's still good, just not as good as it could, as it should be. I can hear the difference through my AVM-20, but I can still completely enjoy the movie. After a couple minutes (if that) I stop watching the picture and listening to the sound, and start watching the movie.

Comparing it to the Sd DVD is apples to oranges. The HD DVD needs to be compared to how it sounds on another HD DVD player. What does the Sd DVD have to do with the HD DVD. They are different.

The 32" doesn't have any video lag, I've noticed the slight difference of sync on multiple displays according to size, I'm not saying it's there on one and not another, audio lag is more 'noticable' on a larger screen though imo.

Two possibilities that would allow this to make sense :

1. The larger screen is based on a different technology to the smaller screen. If the small screen is a CRT and the larger screen a DLP projector then it is reasonable to expect a sound / vision timing discrepancy may arise, as DLP, Plasma and LCD displays all buffer the incoming video to process it - de-interlace, scale, generate sub-fields etc. - prior to display, which can add a frame or two or three of delay (or partial frames for that matter - I've known systems with 7 fields of display, and in some applications I've seen 5 frames...) This can be the difference between something looking in-sync or out-of-sync - especially if there is a small A/V sync delay already.

Many sources and amplifiers now include an audio delay to compensate for digital video delays introduced by flat screen and some projection screen frame store based systems.

2. The A/V lag is more easily visible on a larger screen as things like mouths are clearer on the bigger screen, so a small A/V delay which may not be obvious on a 32" screen becomes very obvious on a 90" screen at similar viewing distances.

My guess is that it is 1. if it is really an issue.

I've certainly experienced variable video delays between displays - though this isn't a function of size per se - it is often correlated to the size as smaller screens are often CRT based, with little delay, and larger screens are plasma or DLP rear-pro and can suffer delay.

Comparing it to the Sd DVD is apples to oranges. The HD DVD needs to be compared to how it sounds on another HD DVD player. What does the Sd DVD have to do with the HD DVD. They are different.

right, but the standard definition dvd, should be the bare minimum of how the HD-DVD version should sound. If the HD version doesn't at least out perform the SD version, that isn't good

Comparing it to the Sd DVD is apples to oranges. The HD DVD needs to be compared to how it sounds on another HD DVD player. What does the Sd DVD have to do with the HD DVD. They are different.
On my system, with the same discs, the HD-A1 sounds better (with DD+ --> DTS over digital coax) than the 360 (with DD+ --> DD over optical).

And as somebody has already said, I would hope that the bare minimum for HD DVD is equivalent to DD on SD DVD.


Two possibilities that would allow this to make sense :

1. The larger screen is based on a different technology to the smaller screen. If the small screen is a CRT and the larger screen a DLP projector then it is reasonable to expect a sound / vision timing discrepancy may arise, as DLP, Plasma and LCD displays all buffer the incoming video to process it - de-interlace, scale, generate sub-fields etc. - prior to display, which can add a frame or two or three of delay (or partial frames for that matter - I've known systems with 7 fields of display, and in some applications I've seen 5 frames...) This can be the difference between something looking in-sync or out-of-sync - especially if there is a small A/V sync delay already.

Many sources and amplifiers now include an audio delay to compensate for digital video delays introduced by flat screen and some projection screen frame store based systems.
Except that the audio lags behind the video on 360 HD DVD. Therefore, a TV that has lag would actually make things better.


2. The A/V lag is more easily visible on a larger screen as things like mouths are clearer on the bigger screen, so a small A/V delay which may not be obvious on a 32" screen becomes very obvious on a 90" screen at similar viewing distances.
Well perhaps, but not many people view 90" screens and 32" screens at the same viewing distance.

Well perhaps, but not many people view 90" screens and 32" screens at the same viewing distance.

You might be surprised, seems to me that people go with FPs primarilly to get a "bigger" screen (closer viewing ratio), and the more cinematic feel, to that end 1.5-2.5x viewing distances are relatively common (preferred) with front projectors, that puts people in the 10-15' range with most FP screens.

In contrast, most people don't think in terms of "viewing ratio" especially those not into HT/FPs, such that people tend to sit "across the room" from the TV, thus ending up at about that same 10-15' range normally. How many people really sit 6' from a 50" TV, or 3-4' from a 34" (1.55x viewing ratio)?

Amir on the DTS update:

Quote:
Originally Posted by ahartig
Is there a remote chance that the update could come before xmas. I am going to try and delay getting HDDVDs with just DD+ soundtracks and would like to forecast how many SDDVDs i need to put in my netflix queue. thanks....

Alex


I don't think it will come from Xmas. There is way too much testing we have to do to release this.

I rented and tried out Batman Begins on my 360 add-on and there is noticeable audio lag with the TrueHD track.

I'm still debating whether I should keep this add-on or send it back to Amazon.com. I'm not exactly thrilled with this thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=766588) which indicates that HD DVD release schedule is drying up while Blu-Ray release schedule is growing bigger and bigger. At this point I still have about 20 days of the 30 day return period to play with, I'm not going to spend any money on a dying format even merely $200.

Two possibilities that would allow this to make sense :

1. The larger screen is based on a different technology to the smaller screen. If the small screen is a CRT and the larger screen a DLP projector then it is reasonable to expect a sound / vision timing discrepancy may arise, as DLP, Plasma and LCD displays all buffer the incoming video to process it - de-interlace, scale, generate sub-fields etc. - prior to display, which can add a frame or two or three of delay (or partial frames for that matter - I've known systems with 7 fields of display, and in some applications I've seen 5 frames...) This can be the difference between something looking in-sync or out-of-sync - especially if there is a small A/V sync delay already.

Many sources and amplifiers now include an audio delay to compensate for digital video delays introduced by flat screen and some projection screen frame store based systems.

2. The A/V lag is more easily visible on a larger screen as things like mouths are clearer on the bigger screen, so a small A/V delay which may not be obvious on a 32" screen becomes very obvious on a 90" screen at similar viewing distances.

My guess is that it is 1. if it is really an issue.

I've certainly experienced variable video delays between displays - though this isn't a function of size per se - it is often correlated to the size as smaller screens are often CRT based, with little delay, and larger screens are plasma or DLP rear-pro and can suffer delay.


I would say your correct with number 2, it's not a huge issue but I find it more pronounced.

I sit 11 feet away from my 32" LCD and 11 feet away from my 96" PJ screen (LCD PJ), the screen drops down in front of LCD.
It can be seen here if logged in:
http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=382398

Amir on the DTS update:

Quote:
Originally Posted by ahartig
Is there a remote chance that the update could come before xmas. I am going to try and delay getting HDDVDs with just DD+ soundtracks and would like to forecast how many SDDVDs i need to put in my netflix queue. thanks....

Alex


I don't think it will come from Xmas. There is way too much testing we have to do to release this.


That would be so bad - for Microsoft. Thousands will find the drive under the christmas tree. A drive that reproduces HD picture and sound. When they find out that it is not able to reproduce the sound in an adequate manner (assuming they have a good sound system), they will be very, very sad. This would be the worst possible marketing for Microsoft I could think of. It is so hard to get happy customers in a competitive market and Microsoft would throw this chance away and would get hostile customers. I would actually sell my xbox which I bought only for HD. Even though I already bought a game for it which has nothing to do with HD playback - and I considered even buying more games - but when there is no HD playback, then I dont need the xbox any more and Microsoft looses all my future purchases.


Christmas is the deadline, Microsoft!


@Microsoft: I know I ask a lot - but maybe this forum can help. Give us some beta release of the DTS encoder! Here you find enough sound geeks who can write you a detailed report that tells you if the encoder works or not. Use the power of this forum to get the job done!

I would say your correct with number 2, it's not a huge issue but I find it more pronounced.

I sit 11 feet away from my 32" LCD and 11 feet away from my 96" PJ screen (LCD PJ), the screen drops down in front of LCD.
It can be seen here if logged in:
http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=382398

Great HT setup. I love how the screen can be hidden. I wish to one day have a theatre room and would like to have something similar to yours.

Amir on the DTS update:

Quote:
Originally Posted by ahartig
Is there a remote chance that the update could come before xmas. I am going to try and delay getting HDDVDs with just DD+ soundtracks and would like to forecast how many SDDVDs i need to put in my netflix queue. thanks....

Alex


I don't think it will come from Xmas. There is way too much testing we have to do to release this.

Sad if this is true. The addon drive is hitting the UK now and could have a negative effect once word get around.

Really seems as if the HD DVD camp is starting to drop the ball, with zero visibility for the standalone players and the addon's problems. When we should be seeing a two-pronged, full-on HD DVD marketing attack spearheaded by the A2 and Xbox accessory.

I think you guys greatly overestimate the portion of those buying the HD DVD Player that would even notice, know, or care that there's any deficiency in the audio.

I also think you guys greatly exaggerate the deficiency as well. This as with most everything on this forum, seems to be blown way out of proportion.

I think you guys greatly overestimate the portion of those buying the HD DVD Player that would even notice, know, or care that there's any deficiency in the audio.

I also think you guys greatly exaggerate the deficiency as well. This as with most everything on this forum, seems to be blown way out of proportion.
I think you pretty much hit the nail there.I don't know eny kids/teens with a 5.1 rig for there xbox.I think the only ones that have issues are the 25+ crowd.

Actually, I think the audio issue is pretty obvious, even if it doesn't bother me as much as others.

Right now I must admit I can't in good faith recommend ANY high def player to friends and family.

1) Toshiba HD-A1 - Too friggin slow and quirky. Audio lag problem.
2) Toshiba HD-A2 - SD DVD problem. (Not a deal killer for some, since some would still keep their DVD player).
3) Xbox 360 HD DVD - DD audio problem and audio lag problem.
4) PS3 - Various issues, including no remote, lack of proper scaling options, and no IR support.
5) Other HD DVD and Blu-ray players - Way too expensive.

The closest to being recommendable (for those not needing/having a console) is the HD-A2 IMO.

I think you pretty much hit the nail there.I don't know eny kids/teens with a 5.1 rig for there xbox.I think the only ones that have issues are the 25+ crowd.
Of course, that represents a good chunk of the Xbox 360's primary market.

It sounds fine to me... I have a hard time listening to my system at refrence levels as it is. I'm usually at -15 to -18db on my systam. I run a B&K REF 50 preamp, ATI 1505 amplifier clone by Sonance, PSB Image speakers, and a Hsu subwoofer powered by a QSC RMX 850.

Movies sound dynamic enough for me, but what do I know? If the movie sounds a bit low I raise the volume.

Enjoy more movies, post less criticism...

Sean

Sean

I Thought the same thing, that people are being too picky about the sound. So went ahead and bought the add on. And to my shock they were right. I mean I can live with it. But when its compared to my 20 dollar dvd player listening to gladiator or pearl harbour in dts. Poor old kong in the hd add on just couldn't come close. This is a real issue and a real problem. I'm just an occasional movie guy not even that serious, and it annoys me to the tenth degree. But like I said will live with it and wait for this supposed update. I'll be positive though, the picture is definitely nice!

It sounds fine to me... I have a hard time listening to my system at refrence levels as it is. I'm usually at -15 to -18db on my systam. I run a B&K REF 50 preamp, ATI 1505 amplifier clone by Sonance, PSB Image speakers, and a Hsu subwoofer powered by a QSC RMX 850.

Movies sound dynamic enough for me, but what do I know? If the movie sounds a bit low I raise the volume.

Enjoy more movies, post less criticism...

Sean

Sean

Raising the volume doesn't solve the problem and if the movies sound dynamic to you and I mean no offence, either your set up or hearing may need checking.

It sounds fine to me... I have a hard time listening to my system at refrence levels as it is. I'm usually at -15 to -18db on my systam. I run a B&K REF 50 preamp, ATI 1505 amplifier clone by Sonance, PSB Image speakers, and a Hsu subwoofer powered by a QSC RMX 850.

Movies sound dynamic enough for me, but what do I know? If the movie sounds a bit low I raise the volume.

Enjoy more movies, post less criticism...

Sean

Sean

It isn't just about the volume though. The sound is very flat no matter how loud you put it. It just isn't as dynamic as it needs to be. Compare it to the SD DVD version. It's not even close. But yeah, microsoft will fix the issue soon enough, but you can't deny it's not a huge issue with the player

I think you guys greatly overestimate the portion of those buying the HD DVD Player that would even notice, know, or care that there's any deficiency in the audio.

I also think you guys greatly exaggerate the deficiency as well. This as with most everything on this forum, seems to be blown way out of proportion.

I am in total agreement with these statements. After all these years of buying AV components I an not expecting rock solid products till gen 4 or 5. Now I could pick apart every product out now... but whats the point? I have a $200 HD DVD player that will get me by until I can buy a mature product in 2008. It will be ta leats then before one is even available.

I get the feeling most people who don't find the audio problem that bad haven't compared it with a SD version on a half decent set up.

I get the feeling most people who don't find the audio problem that bad haven't compared it with a SD version on a half decent set up.


well i'm playing it through a 2 speaker boom box so to speak using an optical input.

So i doubt i'd notice the sound diffrence anyway. Its pretty crappy sound to begin with . Perhaps if i got a decent 5.1 sound system i would .


Of course at 200$ for the add on i'm not expecting it to rival the 500$ or 1k players on the market . Just like i don't expect a 100$ 5.1 sound system(that i am going to buy soon ) to rival a 500 -1k 5.1 sound system

Actually, I think the audio issue is pretty obvious, even if it doesn't bother me as much as others.

I'm not saying there's not a problem, but all these posts of doom and gloom are way over the top, and misguided as well IMO. Yeah, it's a problem, but it's been acknowledged and a fix is on the way. In the mean time, I'd guess 90-95% of the people with the addon will fall into one of two categories:

1) They're none the wiser about the audio issue.
2) They know, but it doesn't really bother them, it's a $200 HD DVD Player after all.

Raising the volume doesn't solve the problem and if the movies sound dynamic to you and I mean no offence, either your set up or hearing may need checking.

Ah, the typical myopic retort of the AVS'r. If someone doesn't agree with your assessment of the difference, they need to get their <insert sense> checked. :rolleyes:

I am, to a degree, amazed how so many people here seem unable to comprehend that someone else could fully see/hear/notice a difference, yet come to a different conclusion about it's magnitude/importance.

I get the feeling most people who don't find the audio problem that bad haven't compared it with a SD version on a half decent set up.

I have, I can hear it (without listenning for it), but really it doesn't bother me that much. After a minute or two, I'm in the movie stuff like that no longer bothers me.

I do look forward to the fix though, and hopefully it's out sooner than later. And as impatient as we are, you have to give MS credit for not rushing out a half-baked fix, that they take the time to rigourously qual their updates. If you think the audio's bad, imagine what would happen if they released an update that hosed people's 360s.

I noticed it right way within five minutes of playing my first HD-DVD. The soundtrack just doesn't have much "umph" compared to any regular SD-DVD AC-3 soundtrack. Microsoft obviously has a problem in the conversion algorithim from DD+ to AC-3. It's a software problem that needs to be fixed, and it can happen outside of the DTS update (or at least it should).

The DTS update is a new feature, and waiting till a March console update is fine for the addition of new features. However, the DD+ problem is a flaw in Microsoft's coding. I can't imagine it would be that hard to fix (with a team of a couple people it shouldn't take more than a few days, if even that long). I think the DD+ conversion to AC-3 is pretty standardized already, and the algorithims to do so already developed by Toshiba. I believe Toshiba shared them with MS and MS probably just screwed around with them a bit to "optimize" them for the Xbox. In the process they changed something they shouldn't have, breaking the algorithim.

Microsoft needs to get on top of this and fix the flawed code with a new update ASAP. I had considered taking my HD-DVD drive back. Then I figured this problem should be something they can fix in a few days, a few days to make the updated, and then maybe a week or two to validate everything. I was defininately thinking a fix by Dec. 20 or the 27th time frame. I could wait that long. But now MS is saying 3 months.

Given that, my drive may just go back as defective. The store will exchange it for another, which will also go back as defective (do it as many times as the store will let you, then bring them a print out from a MS rep saying there is a problem MS is trying to resolve). Microsoft eats the cost on both those returns, and if enough people do this, stores will start returning whole batches of HD-DVD drives back to Microsoft as defective lots at a huge cost to validate and repackage. Maybe that is what needs to happen to get Microsoft to take note that they have released a flawed and defective product that needs to be fixed with a software patch ASAP.

Amir on the DTS update:

Quote:
Originally Posted by ahartig
Is there a remote chance that the update could come before xmas. I am going to try and delay getting HDDVDs with just DD+ soundtracks and would like to forecast how many SDDVDs i need to put in my netflix queue. thanks....

Alex

I don't think it will come from Xmas. There is way too much testing we have to do to release this.
Yeah, this is disappointing, but not completely unexpected. I can understand their reasons. It does take a lot of time to test this type of stuff properly. Then again, that didn't stop MS from releasing the Xbox 360 HD DVD with audio problems in November.

I was hoping this audio "flatness" issue (which I consider a secondary issue) and the audio lag issue (which I consider the 360's #1 problem with HD DVD) would be fixed by the end of the year. In the meantime I've struck most of my planned HD DVD purchases off my list. I'll just rent for now.

I'm not saying there's not a problem, but all these posts of doom and gloom are way over the top, and misguided as well IMO. Yeah, it's a problem, but it's been acknowledged and a fix is on the way. In the mean time, I'd guess 90-95% of the people with the addon will fall into one of two categories:

1) They're none the wiser about the audio issue.
2) They know, but it doesn't really bother them, it's a $200 HD DVD Player after all.



Ah, the typical myopic retort of the AVS'r. If someone doesn't agree with your assessment of the difference, they need to get their <insert sense> checked. :rolleyes:

I am, to a degree, amazed how so many people here seem unable to comprehend that someone else could fully see/hear/notice a difference, yet come to a different conclusion about it's magnitude/importance.



I have, I can hear it (without listenning for it), but really it doesn't bother me that much. After a minute or two, I'm in the movie stuff like that no longer bothers me.

I do look forward to the fix though, and hopefully it's out sooner than later. And as impatient as we are, you have to give MS credit for not rushing out a half-baked fix, that they take the time to rigourously qual their updates. If you think the audio's bad, imagine what would happen if they released an update that hosed people's 360s.

My comment quite obviously wasn't directed at you nor was meant as offensive, it was directed at "jeep lover" who said he couldn't notice it but you still took offence.

He never said the fault doesn't bother him, he said "it sounds fine" if he's happy with what he's got then good for him but you, me and lots of other people including Microsoft know there is a fault, so by all means tell why he can't tell the difference ?

My comment quite obviously wasn't directed at you nor was meant as offensive, it was directed at "jeep lover" who said he couldn't notice it but you still took offence.

He never said the fault doesn't bother him, he said "it sounds fine" if he's happy with what he's got then good for him but you, me and lots of other people including Microsoft know there is a fault, so by all means tell why he can't tell the difference ?

Not really offense, more frustration. Instead of leaving people alone, lots of AVS'rs seem to have a need to "attack" those who don't care enough (or are unable) to notice things.

I say let them live in ignorance. Heck, I might have been able to be happilly ignorant of the audio issue had I not been reading these forms.

Not really offense, more frustration. Instead of leaving people alone, lots of AVS'rs seem to have a need to "attack" those who don't care enough (or are unable) to notice things.

I say let them live in ignorance. Heck, I might have been able to be happilly ignorant of the audio issue had I not been reading these forms.

No doubt about it ignorance can be bliss, the day I read about Edge Enhancement years ago was a bad move, I wanted to be up on image quality but from then on I saw it everywhere.
I still refuse to read about vertical banding, I know my projector has it but I haven't noticed anything and I'm happy about that.
Tbh though I wouldn't get involved in a discussion about it though if I don't want to know either.

No doubt about it ignorance can be bliss, the day I read about Edge Enhancement years ago was a bad move, I wanted to be up on image quality but from then on I saw it everywhere.
I still refuse to read about vertical banding, I know my projector has it but I haven't noticed anything and I'm happy about that.
Tbh though I wouldn't get involved in a discussion about it though if I don't want to know either.
Heh.

I see edge enhancement and it annoys me if it's bad, but if it's mild it doesn't seem to bother me as much as other people.

I see CUE on some players when I specifically look for it, but I usually find it hard to notice, and hence I rarely care about it. Even on a $400 2nd generation player, it really doesn't concern me that much.

I see SD DVD layer changes and I find it annoying sometimes, but it's another thing I can live with. I mean I've lived with it for 6 years now with my Panasonic RP91 and I still like that player.

I see combing on SD DVD, and it does annoy me quite a lot, but fortunately it's rare on commercial movie DVDs so I can live with it.

I hear audio flatness with the 360 HD DVD, but I am confident it will be corrected, and it's not a deal killer issue for me, at least with this $200 player.

OTOH, I hear audio lag on the 360 HD DVD, and it drives me up the friggin' wall.