Yes, god forbid there be a SubMersive in the wild with no grills!!!!!

Oh wait a minute.... :D
I've seen you mention this before... do you think there is an issue with the grills? The material on mine is so thin, I can't imagine it has any sonic impact at subwoofer frequencies.

Hi Craig,

Good to hear things are sounding impressive in the first pass.

I only use a phase control in setup if I don't have other adjustments which are generally better suited for the job. Adjusting the "distance" setting for the subwoofer has a related but more useful effect (IMO). Your SMS-1 does offer a phase control if you prefer that method of adjustment.

Don't sweat the processor adding a few more milliseconds of delay. This is very easy for the DSP and part of the basic function of any receiver or processor. We don't really care about the physical distance of the subwoofer but rather the acoustic distance or virtual location with all of the electronics in the chain. Even the low pass filter on the subwoofer adds group delay, and it adds more if it is made steeper. If you can account for it there is no problem. This is in fact one of the luxuries we have in multi-channel systems vs. 2 channel, as you almost never have the ability to delay the main speakers relative to the subwoofer. A great deal of audiophile folk lore surrounding what types of subwoofer designs and crossovers sounded good for music was related to such limitations in setup. ;)

Whether you insert the SMS or not, what matters is making the system measurements and adjustments with the full chain of components in the loop.

Mark,

Is the low-pass filter defeatable? I did not notice a switch for that on the back.

Thanks.

Mark

I've seen you mention this before... do you think there is an issue with the grills? The material on mine is so thin, I can't imagine it has any sonic impact at subwoofer frequencies.

so craig, how do the submersives compare to the fathoms ?

http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee42/sub-woofer/interview.gif

Hello,
I bought a pair of used SubMersives from the member that started this thread. (WarrenBuffett - Grew on Mark's forum) [No I did not ask him why he needed to sell them]
1.) Mark supplied shipping boxes so they arrived in good shape.
2.) The DSPs had been updated by shipping the plate amps back to Mark. (By the original owner)
3.) Now the reason for this post: I had contacted Mark, asking what glue he used on the grills because over time the cloth had loosened. He said to send them to him, as he had changed the method used to attach the cloth to the grill frame & he would take care of it at NO CHARGE! When he received them, he jumped right on the repair and they were on their way back to me in a couple of days. (Saturday delivery even)

Now that is service, and I did not even directly purchase the subs from him!

Carl

Wow, nice!!

so craig, how do the submersives compare to the fathoms ?

http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee42/sub-woofer/interview.gif

Are you asking from a musicality standpoint, or in general? I would ike to know how they compare from a musical standpoint.

You know, I sometimes forget just how small the Fathoms are, until see pics like Craigs. It is almost as if you can fit two of them inside the cabinet of the Submersive from looking at his pics:eek:

Low pass....... as in like DC, because that is about the only thing I wouldnt want to send to my submersive:eek:

Actually, I dont think there is a low pass, and if there is, its real real real real LOW, got to be down in the 2hz range or something since most of us are getting great response all the way to 10hz or so

Mark,

Is the low-pass filter defeatable? I did not notice a switch for that on the back.

Thanks.

Mark

I've seen you mention this before... do you think there is an issue with the grills? The material on mine is so thin, I can't imagine it has any sonic impact at subwoofer frequencies.

No just making fun of Kevin AKA Sandbagger. He has a very early SubMersive that is a slightly different shape than the rest of ours, and he has no grills. The story is that Mark lost his grills, or he has them and will ship them out any year now or..... It is a running joke, and has nothing to do with production SubMersives.

FWIW, I still have not figured out what to do with mine. They are leaning against the wall behind the sub.

Low pass....... as in like DC, because that is about the only thing I wouldnt want to send to my submersive:eek:

Actually, I dont think there is a low pass, and if there is, its real real real real LOW, got to be down in the 2hz range or something since most of us are getting great response all the way to 10hz or so

Low pass as in cutting of the frequencies above XXX hz which I assume is somewhere around 200 on the SubMersive. It lets the low stuff pass to the sub but filters out any "full range" signal above a certain point. The high pass filter would be what you would want to set a 8 hz or below on the SubMersive, but I assume it does not explicitly have one, although the electronics are likely not flat to DC, and probably roll off between 3-5 hz.

Yes, god forbid there be a SubMersive in the wild with no grills!!!!!

Oh wait a minute.... :D

I've seen you mention this before... do you think there is an issue with the grills? The material on mine is so thin, I can't imagine it has any sonic impact at subwoofer frequencies.

A submersive with no grills, what a terrible thing, it should never be;)

Low pass as in cutting of the frequencies above XXX hz which I assume is somewhere around 200 on the SubMersive. It lets the low stuff pass to the sub but filters out any "full range" signal above a certain point. The high pass filter would be what you would want to set a 8 hz or below on the SubMersive, but I assume it does not explicitly have one, although the electronics are likely not flat to DC, and probably roll off between 3-5 hz.

yea what you said, had a few too many pops earlier

a submersive with no grills, what a terrible thing, it should never be;)

never!

so craig, how do the submersives compare to the fathoms ?

http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee42/sub-woofer/interview.gif

What he said :D

Are you asking from a musicality standpoint, or in general? I would ike to know how they compare from a musical standpoint.

You know, I sometimes forget just how small the Fathoms are, until see pics like Craigs. It is almost as if you can fit two of them inside the cabinet of the Submersive from looking at his pics:eek:

Note that craig john had F112s, not F113s, and the 12 makes the size difference seem even greater.

Mark,

Is the low-pass filter defeatable? I did not notice a switch for that on the back.

Thanks.

Mark

Hi Mark,

I didn't understand your question at first. Only after seeing m-fine's post did it click that you were thinking of the SubMersive and not the SMS-1 (for which the low pass can be turned off).

My statement of "Even the low pass filter on the subwoofer adds group delay, and it adds more if it is made steeper." Was a general reference for all subwoofer use/setup and not one specific to the SubMersive. The SubMersive does not have a variable low pass filter intended for use with a crossover. The SubMersive has significant high frequency extension covering 19-200Hz at +/-3dB. There is no real need for more high frequency extension from a SubMersive.

To directly answer your question, there is no low pass filter you need to bypass, and the roll off above 200Hz is preferred for any use of the SubMersive.

Hello,
I bought a pair of used SubMersives from the member that started this thread. (WarrenBuffett - Grew on Mark's forum) [No I did not ask him why he needed to sell them]l

NEVERMIND, SOMEBODY PMed me the REASON THEY WERE SOLD
Id not mind knowing why WarrenBuffett decided to part with those SubMersives.
Does anybody know? Did he buy different subwoofers? If the reasons were financial then please forgive me, we are in hard times so id understand.

Hi guys,

The level adjustment on the amplifier is just an input attenuator, so it just scales the input. The effects observed are entirely related to the upstream electronics. At high levels, some receivers and pre-amplifiers are much happier at lower channel gain levels (ie -8dB to -2dB), particularly the subwoofer output which can require much higher output. While with pro equipment it is preferable to have the maximum levels you will ever use slightly under the clipping limits, with most home/consumer products you don't want to over-load the electronics where most receivers and pre-processors are rather low noise to begin with, being happier at lower level operation than near maximum.

This is most likely what is being observed. In the case of the systems using external EQ's like the DSP-30, under the "Tools-options" menu you can adjust the input/output gain while watching the level meters in the software to insure you aren't clipping. When I set SubMersives up myself I often try to keep at higher level settings so someone can't walk over and suddenly add another 10dB to the level. :rolleyes:

I would recommend those with the channel levels in their processor at 0dB or higher to experiment with a lower setting and see if the results are any better, but I can tell you that while in some cases I have observed differences, more often there is none. Of course if you bump the level by a dB or two, intentionally or not, it will sound more dynamic and impressive with the higher level.a

Finally, remember that the level control on the SubMersive amplifiers cover a 36dB range, and the first half of the rotation is ~1dB increments vs. larger steps at the bottom. The mid point of the rotation is only -10dB from maximum, where in most home subwoofers comes from less than 15 degrees of rotation, as they have a much wider range of gain. Unless you are connecting with speaker level inputs, that much range is never really needed.

Hope that helps.

Hi Mark, so if my MFW-15s gain was set right at half-way what abouts would the Submersive's gain need to be at to come close to matching half-way on the MFW-15?

Id not mind knowing why WarrenBuffett decided to part with those SubMersives.
Does anybody know? Did he buy different subwoofers? If the reasons were financial then please forgive me, we are in hard times so id understand.

Hello,
There had been no further posts by "WarrenBuffett" on either forum. He had to put the subs into storage when he went to Singapore and I did not get them until his return. (He may be out of the States again)

Carl

Hi Mark, so if my MFW-15s gain was set right at half-way what abouts would the Submersive's gain need to be at to come close to matching half-way on the MFW-15?

No idea. I'd have to measure it on the MFW i have here. Again, it really doesn't matter so long as the receiver ch is set at a preferred range and you're getting the right relative levels with the Audio Toolkit DVD & SPL meter. Add a good 6-10dB potential variation from perfectly matched for taste, room acoustics and in-room frequency response, and there's no reason to worry about what the MFW was set at. Given the SubMersive is flatter and more extended in response, different settings would be expected.

NEVERMIND, SOMEBODY PMed me the REASON THEY WERE SOLD
Id not mind knowing why WarrenBuffett decided to part with those SubMersives.
Does anybody know? Did he buy different subwoofers? If the reasons were financial then please forgive me, we are in hard times so id understand.

The reasons were mostly space related, as he was leaving the country for a while. He was also had moved to a NYC apartment and there was no way to use their capability without inviting everyone in the building over. :) If he finds his way into a home back in the states, maybe we'll see what he assembles next time around. :cool:

Thanks for the input Mark. ^^^

Today I moved my easy chair and put the SubMersive in its spot then I walked around my room with my SPL meter (at about Submersive height) and tried to find the best subwoofer positions. Right next to my chair in about the coffee table position was the best spot in the room by a few dbs. Well I sat it there for a few and decided against it because I could hear more than I wanted to hear from the Sumbersive. As it turns out the place I had it was pretty good but I found another spot in the room that was pretty good and id not mind seeing the SubMersive sit there so I moved it.


Then I ran Audyssey again since I moved the SubMersive, I also repositioned my speakers and each got moved about 6-12" so Audyssey was necessary, I kept getting the "Ambient noise is too high, try again" , I usually repositon the mic and this usually solves it

But this time when it was going around from Speaker to speaker I could hear the SubMersive a tad , really quietly whispering or faintly humming the speaker tones as Audyssey worked. After 10 times I decided to double check all of the wiring on everything. It was all good. I finally shut off the Submersive and it finally completed a position. What might be going on here?
#1 I am still kinda thinking its possible my mic is goofy , but otherwise I don't know what to do. BTW I even tried a cheater plug on the SubM but it made no change. Or perhaps the new spot it is sitting in just happens to amplify a frequency Audyssey don't like or something?

^ Have you thought about using REW to measure your response, then getting a cheap EQ to use instead of Audyssey? Some people swear by Audyssey; others don't like it and prefer to use something else. A $100 BFD will let you EQ below the Schroeder Frequency (below 200Hz or so) to your hearts content.

Of course, it could just be your mic like you mentioned. Obviously it should be as quiet as possible when you run Audyssey, so if it is and you are still getting ambient noise errors there probably some sort of hardware issues at play. I say use something other than Audyssey to EQ the bass response, but that's just me.

Thanks for the input Mark. ^^^

Today I moved my easy chair and put the SubMersive in its spot then I walked around my room with my SPL meter (at about Submersive height) and tried to find the best subwoofer positions. Right next to my chair in about the coffee table position was the best spot in the room by a few dbs. Well I sat it there for a few and decided against it because I could hear more than I wanted to hear from the Sumbersive. As it turns out the place I had it was pretty good but I found another spot in the room that was pretty good and id not mind seeing the SubMersive sit there so I moved it.


Then I ran Audyssey again since I moved the SubMersive, I also repositioned my speakers and each got moved about 6-12" so Audyssey was necessary, I kept getting the "Ambient noise is too high, try again" , I usually repositon the mic and this usually solves it

But this time when it was going around from Speaker to speaker I could hear the SubMersive a tad , really quietly whispering or faintly humming the speaker tones as Audyssey worked. After 10 times I decided to double check all of the wiring on everything. It was all good. I finally shut off the Submersive and it finally completed a position. What might be going on here?
#1 I am still kinda thinking its possible my mic is goofy , but otherwise I don't know what to do. BTW I even tried a cheater plug on the SubM but it made no change. Or perhaps the new spot it is sitting in just happens to amplify a frequency Audyssey don't like or something?

Along the lines of what Nuance just posted, any sort of issues like you describe are most likely to be wiring related. It might not be a bad wire, but some things likely moved or got bumped, and are causing some pick up or bleed of noise from somewhere. If the SubMersive was actually producing noise during the output of other speakers, I'd check the RCA cable you have plugged into the adapter and where it is routed or positioned. Try using the internal test tones or the Toolkit DVD and see if anything comes out of the sub during the center channel test.

Mark, my Submersive has a hum that gets louder if the gain is increased. With the receiver off it still hums, the only thing that fixes it is if you take out the input on the subwoofer. Disconnecting the RCA at the end of the adapter does not get rid of it.

Please help.

Hey All,

Just a note for anyone considering the Anti-mode 8033. My damned cc co. (citiwhore) nicked me for an extra $12. as a "foreign purchase" finance charge. While not the end of the world, it's another charge I wasn't expecting which pissed me off just over the principle.

Maybe this is a usual thing when buying overseas but it was new to me.

That said, it's still one of the most satisfying purchases I've made to date.

Chris

Does the antimode has a high pass filter or is it only a EQ? If it doesn't, then you will need to get a separate high pass filter for ported/PR's subs, right?

Mark, my Submersive has a hum that gets louder if the gain is increased. With the receiver off it still hums, the only thing that fixes it is if you take out the input on the subwoofer. Disconnecting the RCA at the end of the adapter does not get rid of it.

Please help.
I'd say it's a bad wire or an electrical/grounding problem. My DIY sub used to hum at my old place, but not where I live now. It was a grounding issue with the electrical. Are you sure you don't have such issues?

Do I recall you say a cheater plug doesn't solve it? If not, that's weird, as it worked for me in the past. A cheater plug is not the way you want to go, but at least then you'd know what the issue was. Just to be sure, you connected the cheater plug to the Submersive's power cord, then plugged the cheater into the wall outlet, right?

Mark, my Submersive has a hum that gets louder if the gain is increased. With the receiver off it still hums, the only thing that fixes it is if you take out the input on the subwoofer. Disconnecting the RCA at the end of the adapter does not get rid of it.

Please help.
Check out the "Hum FAQ":
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=322698

Mark, my Submersive has a hum that gets louder if the gain is increased. With the receiver off it still hums, the only thing that fixes it is if you take out the input on the subwoofer. Disconnecting the RCA at the end of the adapter does not get rid of it.

Please help.

Hi James,

I just responded in more detail to your e-mail, so please check there. The short summary:

It's wiring related (different from a ground loop) and I was able to re-create what you observed. It is picked up on the cable, not a ground loop in the system. Given this happened after you moved the sub, the cable is the most likely source of the problem. I would either try another cable or wiggle each end and see if the hum cuts in or out, as this is likely due to a bad contact with the outer shell on either end of the RCA cable.

Does the antimode has a high pass filter or is it only a EQ? If it doesn't, then you will need to get a separate high pass filter for ported/PR's subs, right?

Are you talking about subs with built-in amps? If so, they will typically have built-in HP filters if they are needed.

Does the antimode has a high pass filter or is it only a EQ? If it doesn't, then you will need to get a separate high pass filter for ported/PR's subs, right?
I'll have to check the manual to be sure of the particular frequency, but off the top of my head, the Anti-Mode has a HPF that can cut in as necessary somewhere between 5-10Hz to help filter off dangerous subsonic frequencies.

I believe mojomike's answer covers the second part of your question.

duwdu

Can I suggest that the Antimode discussion be taken to the Antimode thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1159126&highlight=antimode

Let's try to keep this thread on topic... Seaton Sound Submersive, please. :)

Craig

Today I moved my easy chair and put the SubMersive in its spot then I walked around my room with my SPL meter (at about Submersive height) and tried to find the best subwoofer positions. Right next to my chair in about the coffee table position was the best spot in the room by a few dbs.

Why would you walk around with an SPL meter? The whole purpose of temporarily placing the sub at your listening position (preferably at ears height) is to find the spot where the bass sounds best, so you can place your sub there.

Or did you do frequency sweeps to try and find undesirable peaks (nulls) in the room response at each location?

As I read it you were looking for the spot where the bass was loudest, which is almost never a good subwoofer location. :)

Why would you walk around with an SPL meter? The whole purpose of temporarily placing the sub at your listening position (preferably at ears height) is to find the spot where the bass sounds best, so you can place your sub there.

Or did you do frequency sweeps to try and find undesirable peaks (nulls) in the room response at each location?

As I read it you were looking for the spot where the bass was loudest, which is almost never a good subwoofer location. :)

I did both, I was looking for SPLs AND sound quality.

Perfect cuts, hex bolts, threaded inserts, WOW Mark, its clear to me that you are my type, a perfectionist. Build quality of the SubMersive is first rate, A++++++ :) GOOD JOB MARK! :cool:
http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/bentvalve/IMG_0168.jpg








The drivers are sweet too.....
http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/bentvalve/IMG_0171.jpg?t=1251824645

No More WARRANTY FOR YOU :D:eek::p

Perfect cuts, hex bolts, threaded inserts, WOW Mark, its clear to me that you are my type, a perfectionist. Build quality of the SubMersive is first rate, A++++++ :) GOOD JOB MARK! :cool:
http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/bentvalve/IMG_0168.jpg








The drivers are sweet too.....
http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/bentvalve/IMG_0171.jpg?t=1251824645

James,

Why did you take it apart?

James,

Why did you take it apart?

Just for fun of course. :p

I got a quickie for Mark or anyone else. What is a good furniture polish or care product to use on stained veneer that my SubMersive is finished with?

We appreciate the pics. :)

James,

Are the drivers identical? Do you see any numbers on them that indicate that they are the same?

I've speculated (mostly to myself) that Mark uses different drivers in order to the the performance he does.

James,

Are the drivers identical? Do you see any numbers on them that indicate that they are the same?

I've speculated (mostly to myself) that Mark uses different drivers in order to the the performance he does.

That is definitely not the case. If anything, Mark would make sure they are perfectly matched. You've heard of how inert and vibration-free the Submersive is while in full play. The only way for that to be the case is for the drivers to be identical.

I agree with Mojomike here as well..... The drivers are certainly not an off the shelf driver and are custom for this application but they are indentical.....

Sean

they are indentical.....



Yes they are.

I agree with Mojomike here as well..... The drivers are certainly not an off the shelf driver and are custom for this application but they are indentical.....

Sean

Correct, drivers are the same.

Hey Mark,

I was wondering about the foam surrounds on the Submersive driver. What kind of life expectancy do you anticipate vs. rubber surrounds. I have heard too many awesome things about this sub to question it's performance qualities. I ask because I have replaced many foam surrounds after a few years.

Also, what is the lead time on delivery of a black oak or expresso Submersive?

Hey Mark,

I ask because I have replaced many foam surrounds after a few years.

Also, what is the lead time on delivery of a black oak or expresso Submersive?

Do you live in Hell or something? (heat)
Because in my experience foam surrounds are very durable and last 10-15 years or better.

On the lead time question , PM Mark, this question does not belong in this thread.

James,

Why did you take it apart?

I was just kidding about it being just for fun.

Anyhow Mark told me he lost a 45 carat diamond bracelet that is worth somewhere around $135,000 while putting together one of the Submersives.

So I highly suggest everyone take their Submersive apart and have a look. :p

I was wondering about the foam surrounds on the Submersive driver.

Mark addressed this about a month ago http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16916259#post16916259

Just for fun of course. :p

Did you find what you were looking for in there? :rolleyes:

The top secret sauce :rolleyes:

Do you live in Hell or something? (heat)
Because in my experience foam surrounds are very durable and last 10-15 years or better.

On the lead time question , PM Mark, this question does not belong in this thread.
I thought it was a reasonable and interesting question.
Apparently so did Mark, because he answered it in the thread (see link) above.
I don't see a reason this shouldn't be asked on a public forum.

Mike

*EDIT*
Sorry.
My bad.
See Mark Seaton's post below.

I thought it was a reasonable and interesting question.
Apparently so did Mark, because he answered it in the thread (see link) above.
I don't see a reason this shouldn't be asked on a public forum.

Mike

Hi Mike,

James was referring to the question of availability. *I* shouldn't answer sales related questions here, as my own forum or my e-mail (posted in the signature of every one of my posts on my forum) is the appropriate. Please direct such questions to me there. All of you are free to discuss such things, and I do keep the availability thread up to date and currently lead times posted are accurate.

I'll be making a quick pass through CEDIA Friday-Sunday, but when I return we'll have plenty of parts on hand to fill orders between now and then, and lately we've been pushing subs out the door very quickly once parts are on hand. International orders take a little more time to get out as they have to be wrapped up on a pallet and picked up separately (freight) with much more coordination involved, but we're starting to move more swiftly with those as well. :)

mine has just arrived at work, a bit earlier than expected. From shipping to arrival in 36 hours:) It's very well packed, and the box is a bit heavier and bigger than expected :o

Now I just have to see how to get it to my house (I don't think it'll fit on the back of my bicycle or in my backpack:p).

It's very well packed, and the box is a bit heavier and bigger than expected :o

Now I just have to see how to get it to my house (I don't think it'll fit on the back of my bicycle or in my backpack:p).

No worries. These two guys run a custom home theater business from their bikes...

:D

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3557/3590749345_5767f735cc.jpg

No worries. These two guys run a custom home theater business from their bikes...

:D

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3557/3590749345_5767f735cc.jpg

Awesome.

Do they do specialized installation as well??

No worries. These two guys run a custom home theater business from their bikes...

:D

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3557/3590749345_5767f735cc.jpg

those houses in the background look too close together for high levels of bass :)

I'd still like to see them with a SubMersive on the bike.

mine has just arrived at work, a bit earlier than expected. From shipping to arrival in 36 hours:) It's very well packed, and the box is a bit heavier and bigger than expected :o

Now I just have to see how to get it to my house (I don't think it'll fit on the back of my bicycle or in my backpack:p).

Hi Raf,

I too was surprised to see a delivery notification so quickly, but a few international orders have made delivery much sooner than the guaranteed dates, even when shipped by International Economy Freight.

Please do enjoy, and feel free to post a picture or two of the wrapped up pallet as I'm always interested to see what condition things arrive in. With the addition of 3/16" hardboard strapped to all 4 sides of the box I believe we're now quite resistant even to moderate abuse in handling. :cool:

Enjoy!

No worries. These two guys run a custom home theater business from their bikes...

:D


I'd still like to see them with a SubMersive on the bike.

Please don't give Raf any ideas with the bike as I'm sure he's a bit inebriated with the desire to hear his new toy. :p

That would certainly be an interesting balancing act, or maybe he could just put wheels on the pallet and tow it along. :cool:

I'll be making a quick pass through CEDIA Friday-Sunday,

Hope to see you there Mark....

I'll be down there for a week + for my B-Day on 9/11
I'll be all over Atlanta, Georgia, and Florida - but I still have your cell # and I'll try to give ya a call, maybe I can buy ya a cocktail buddy....

Patrick

Please don't give Raf any ideas with the bike as I'm sure he's a bit inebriated with the desire to hear his new toy. :p

That would certainly be an interesting balancing act, or maybe he could just put wheels on the pallet and tow it along. :cool:

:D :p :D OK, I'll stop encouraging Raf in any potentially dangerous activity, though your idea of the pallet-on-wheels has some legs, eh?!

I certainly remember the pre-SubMersive craziness... unlike most things, however, the real thing is truly better than the anticipation.

HT or music, both are at stunning levels of performance in my room now and I'm not running an EQ or Audyssey. I dusted off my old music favorites from years ago that I'd long since given up on and found the SubMersive re-firing my passion and enjoyment of those tracks. I love how music is once again becoming my favorite chill-time.

BTW, I was hoping--but couldn't let myself believe that it would be possible, that the SubMersive could disappear in a near-field position. I'm beyond pleased to report that it remains un-localizable in its current behind-the-LP-to-the-right location. In this position it adds that cool tactile feel to the whole 9-person sectional that really helps suspend the disbelief that makes movies such a blast. Unlike many "butt-kicker" systems, the SubMersive doesn't just give you vibration (especially with any little bump or deep voice), it produces remarkably different kicks, shakes, pulses, and punches to the seating.

Like so many have said here Mark, my hat's off to you and your creation. You must enjoy knowing you've got an ever-growing number of silly-grinned audio-addicts out there being completly satisfied by your products...

I've once tied a wheelbarrow to my bike in my youth, but in this case I think the weight of the submersive would have me and my bike standing in this \ position :D

Now it's a racing bike so I just sped my way to home and jumped in my car to drive back to work. Some guys from the warehouse needed to help to get the submersive in the car. (convertible, so no booth. so roof down and back seat ) (the total package was arround 73 kg!?). Then back to home. Next problem was to get the thing out of the car. My luck a neighbour just arrived and I asked him to help.

Then the unpacking and plugging in, which didn't go so well:) First problem was finding audio cables to connect it to the receiver (just testing, not replacing the old sub yet) and then connecting it to the power. I then tried to power on. Nothing :s. Checked the fuse but it was ok. I now was really worried the amp somehow didn't survive the trip:s A call to mark cleared the 'issue' though. Turned out I didn't twist the power cable in locking position:$

I did some quick level checks with the radioshack and the supplied dvd and tried war of the worlds. Nice :D

Now I need to do some serious time in the weekend with REW and the BFD to actually get the best out of the sub because my room is just horrible. (Dip in the upper 30's and several peaks with 40 db fluctuations between the dip and peaks)

Mark , I already unpacked the submersive before I saw the message for the pictures, sorry. The packaging actually looked pretty good. No visible marks of abuse and mishandeling by the carrier. Outstanding job on the packaging you did on the submersive with the panels and corner protection carboards!

so craig, how do the submersives compare to the fathoms ?

http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee42/sub-woofer/interview.gif

What he said :D
Ok, my JL F112's are sold, so now I feel like I can make some observations about the differences between the Submersives and the F112's. (I was refraining because I had the F112's advertised on this forum, and I didn't want to make any remarks that a potential buyer might find "disparaging" about the F112's. In fact I have nothing at all "bad" to say about the F112's. I have had a thoroughly enjoyable ownership experience with those subs). Nonetheless, I have moved on to the Submersives.

First off, if you saw the pic I posted earlier, the Submersives are quite bit bigger than the JL's. I'll re-post the pic here for convenience:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=151645&stc=1&d=1251940669

The JL's were the best subs I had ever heard for music. I have quite a few SACD's and DVD-A's with some excellent bass recordings. I also have quite a few concert DVD's, HD-DVD's and BluRays. The JL's made the bass on those recordings sound more like *music* than anything else I've ever heard. I was actually very reluctant to sell them because I was afraid I would never be able to duplicate that sound quality.

However, their performance for Home Theater left something to be desired. I have a THX Ultra2 speaker system, (Atlantic Technology 8200e's, 3 of the L/R's up front behind an Acoustically Transparent screen, with SR's for surrounds). They are driven by an Earthquake Cinenova amp, (325 wpc into 8 ohms, 650 wpc into 4-ohms). The speakers and amps were definitely capable of full Reference Level... but the JL subs were holding them back. On scenes with really deep VLF effects, I couldn't get much above -15 to -12 before the subs would hit the "limiters", (and the limiters on the JL's are really obnoxious, with their "clacking" sound).

In my room, the dual JL's could hit about 100 dB before the limiters kicked in, unless the content had bass below about 30 Hz. Then the max output dropped as the frequency dropped. Some of the VLF bass spectaculars, like Pulse, Cloverfield, M&C, WotW, Ironman etc., were not playable unless the MV was kept below -15.

I recently went to a friends' house to check out his theater. He's an AVS member, and he has a Klipsch THX Ultra2 speaker system with 4 Klipsch THX Ultra2 subs driven by a pair of the 1 kilowatt amps. His system is in a large, but fully sealed room. His system is easily capable of full RL at the seats, with headroom. I was floored by the sound, especially the bass. Right then and there, I decided I needed a subwoofer upgrade.

Enter the Submersives. Where the JL's were two 12" drivers in very small, sealed boxes, the Submersives are four 15" drivers in much larger sealed boxes. The JL drivers (probably) have more excursion (xMax) than the Seaton drivers. However the total air movement capability of four 15" drivers overwhelms the capability of two 12" drivers. Where the JL subs were moving like crazy to attempt to produce output, the four Seaton drivers are loafing along, barely breaking a sweat, producing the same, (and much more), output.

The resultant sound is...

...well, let's just say that the Submersives do everything the JL's did in terms of sound quality for music, (in fact, they provide the same sound quality at significantly higher SPL's), while at the same time, providing the massive output and extension I desired for Home Theater. Reference Level is now a piece of cake for my system, even with the bass spectacular's! In fact the system sounds like it has plenty of headroom left, even with the deepest LF soundtracks.

These Submersives are the best upgrade I have implemented in my system since I went with 3 identical front speakers behind an Acoustically Transparent screen. I have lost *nothing* in terms of sound quality and I have gained massive output capability and VLF externsion.

Mark Seaton, I couldn't be happier. Your subs have definitely taken my system to the next level. The whole system plays back louder, cleaner and "better" with your subs than it ever did with the dual JL F112's*.

*Having said all that, I don't want, in any way, to disparage the JL subs. I think, for what they are, (small, sealed, well built and executed subs), they have no peer. They simply have limitations. I wanted to go beyond those limitations, and the Submersives allowed me to do so.

Craig

I want to also discuss how I ended up setting up the Submersives. I first inserted the SMS-1 into the circuit. I reset it to the original default settings, then I changed the subsonic filter to 5 Hz and the slope to 6 dB/octave. I also shut off the internal LPF.

I then ran Audyssey MultEQ XT from my Onkyo 885 pre/pro. After the Audyssey run, the subwoofer distance was set at 16.4 ft., (where I had previously set it to 18 ft.) I changed the mains from Full Range to an 80 Hz crossover. Then I went back and set some filters on the SMS-1 to flatten the FR, (using just the SMS-1 display).

I believe this is the "Seaton-recommended" technique to use a parametric EQ like the SMS-1 in conjunction with Audysey MultEQ XT, correct?

It sounds terrific. I will try to get the xtz software setup again this weekend to take some measurements and post them. For now, I'm heading down to listen to some music.

Craig

*Having said all that, I don't want, in any way, to disparage the JL subs. I think, for what they are, (small, sealed, well built and executed subs), they have no peer. They simply have limitations. I wanted to go beyond those limitations, and the Submersives allowed me to do so.

Craig


Congrats Craig... you certainly have a great setup - and now its finally complete for you... The submersives are awesome...

The JL's are spectacular subs, but are much better utilized in a smaller room, my F112 in my 1700^3 bedroom is more then I could ask for in its nice little package, but toss it into a larger room, and it just can't cut the mustard in terms of output.

May your submersives give you joy for many years to come... !!!!

Craig,

Are you going to give the AS-EQ1 a try with the SubMersives? I know you didn't have a good experience with it using your JLs.

excellent setup...

i think the longer you listen to those submersives the bigger your grin's gonna get...:D:D

Great write-up, Craig. I was eagerly awaiting it, and it was worth it. In fact, it got me SO excited that I almost want to go beg my wife to let me get a Submersive. Seriously, I am all smiles; like a little kid at Christmas, and I didn't even get anything.

Thanks for sharing your experience, Craig!

I want to also discuss how I ended up setting up the Submersives. I first inserted the SMS-1 into the circuit. I reset it to the original default settings, then I changed the subsonic filter to 5 Hz and the slope to 6 dB/octave. I also shut off the internal LPF.

I then ran Audyssey MultEQ XT from my Onkyo 885 pre/pro. After the Audyssey run, the subwoofer distance was set at 16.4 ft., (where I had previously set it to 18 ft.) I changed the mains from Full Range to an 80 Hz crossover. Then I went back and set some filters on the SMS-1 to flatten the FR, (using just the SMS-1 display).

I believe this is the "Seaton-recommended" technique to use a parametric EQ like the SMS-1 in conjunction with Audysey MultEQ XT, correct?
Craig

Craig, yes I think this is exactly what Mark S recommends, and it's what I do. MultEQ XT (via an Onk 805) does a pretty good job, but it is nice to be able to even things out a bit with the SMS-1. And yes, it does sound amazing!

BTW, with trims for the L/C/R speakers (Ascendacoustics Sierra's) set to give 75 dB, I can't set the LFE channel to more than ~ 77-78 dB without the bass becoming too overpowering. At this level things sound very well balanced.

Congrats Craig... you certainly have a great setup - and now its finally complete for you... The submersives are awesome...
Yup! :)

The JL's are spectacular subs, but are much better utilized in a smaller room, my F112 in my 1700^3 bedroom is more then I could ask for in its nice little package, but toss it into a larger room, and it just can't cut the mustard in terms of output.
Yeah, the room just overwhelmed the JL's. It's about 3,800 cubic feet with lots of absorption and bass trapping. I'm sure the JL's in a smaller room would have been more than adequate... and provide tremedous sound quality.

The guys that bought them are integrating them into pretty high-end systems. One guy has Wilson Sophia's driven by MacIntosh and Meridian electronics. The other guy has Kharma CE 3.1 speakers, MacIntosh electronics and some exotic turntable/cartridge system for vinyl records. I think the JL F112's will be much better suited to those types of systems than in an HT environment in a large room.

May your submersives give you joy for many years to come... !!!!
WOW! Thanks, man! :)

Craig

Craig,

Are you going to give the AS-EQ1 a try with the SubMersives? I know you didn't have a good experience with it using your JLs.
I think the plan is for pepar to bring *his* AS-EQ1 over here, (as opposed to the loaner prototype he has now), once he receives it. We'll put it in my system for a few days while he does some work on his system, moving his subs around, installing some more bass traps, etc.

The "issues" I had with the AS-EQ1 and my JL's were related to a difference in the firmware in my 2 JL's. They were bought at different times, and there was an interim firmware revision that changed the upper LPF, and changed the volume scaling. Jl sent me a new processor board, at no charge, so that the two subs matched each other.

Since my Submersives were made "sequentially", I don't expect there were any revisions made in between the two builds. :D:D:D

I'll be interested to see what effect the AS-EQ1 has on the sound.

Craig

Great write-up, Craig. I was eagerly awaiting it, and it was worth it. In fact, it got me SO excited that I almost want to go beg my wife to let me get a Submersive. Seriously, I am all smiles; like a little kid at Christmas, and I didn't even get anything.

Thanks for sharing your experience, Craig!

Great post! It almost makes me want to pack up one of my Submersives and send it to you!

Wait.. wait... I did say... "almost"! :D:D:D

Craig

Craig, yes I think this is exactly what Mark S recommends, and it's what I do. MultEQ XT (via an Onk 805) does a pretty good job, but it is nice to be able to even things out a bit with the SMS-1. And yes, it does sound amazing!

BTW, with trims for the L/C/R speakers (Ascendacoustics Sierra's) set to give 75 dB, I can't set the LFE channel to more than ~ 77-78 dB without the bass becoming too overpowering. At this level things sound very well balanced.
Thanks for reminding me... I forgot to mention my last step, which was to re-balance everything with the SPL meter. I set them all to 75, which with my meter, is setting the sub ~3 dB hot.

Craig

How much do these weigh anyways?

Edit: Found it 120.

And yes, it does sound amazing!
I just listened to several songs on The Eagles, Farewell 1 Tour on HD DVD in DTS-MA on the new Submersives. I listened at -3 MV, which is about 10 dB louder than I've ever listened to it before. Words can't describe it... that's all I can say.

Shakes head...

Goes to bed...

:)

Craig

I just listened to several songs on The Eagles, Farewell 1 Tour on HD DVD in DTS-MA on the new Submersives. I listened at -3 MV, which is about 10 dB louder than I've ever listened to it before. Words can't describe it... that's all I can say.

Shakes head...

Goes to bed...

:)

Craig

Great for you!!! I was doing the same thing last night with some red-label tracks... stunning is about as close as words get.

You know, I'm getting insane performance in my 3,100 cu. ft. room with 1 SubMersive--I can't imagine what craziness you're able to get to with duals! :cool:

The resultant sound is...

...well, let's just say that the Submersives do everything the JL's did in terms of sound quality for music, (in fact, they provide the same sound quality at significantly higher SPL's), while at the same time, providing the massive output and extension I desired for Home Theater. Reference Level is now a piece of cake for my system, even with the bass spectacular's! In fact the system sounds like it has plenty of headroom left, even with the deepest LF soundtracks.

These Submersives are the best upgrade I have implemented in my system since I went with 3 identical front speakers behind an Acoustically Transparent screen. I have lost *nothing* in terms of sound quality and I have gained massive output capability and VLF extension.

Mark Seaton, I couldn't be happier. Your subs have definitely taken my system to the next level. The whole system plays back louder, cleaner and "better" with your subs than it ever did with the dual JL F112's*.

*Having said all that, I don't want, in any way, to disparage the JL subs. I think, for what they are, (small, sealed, well built and executed subs), they have no peer. They simply have limitations. I wanted to go beyond those limitations, and the Submersives allowed me to do so.

Craig

Great write-up Craig. :cool:

Great post! It almost makes me want to pack up one of my Submersives and send it to you!

Wait.. wait... I did say... "almost"! :D:D:D

Craig
Ohhhhh, so close. Do I need to beg, cause I can do that! :D

Enjoy buddy. I'll hear a Submersive one of these days...hopefully when it's in my home because I bought one.

P.S. The Packers look goooooood this year!

Ok, my JL F112's are sold, so now I feel like I can make some observations about the differences between the Submersives and the F112's. (I was refraining because I had the F112's advertised on this forum, and I didn't want to make any remarks that a potential buyer might find "disparaging" about the F112's. In fact I have nothing at all "bad" to say about the F112's. I have had a thoroughly enjoyable ownership experience with those subs). Nonetheless, I have moved on to the Submersives.

First off, if you saw the pic I posted earlier, the Submersives are quite bit bigger than the JL's. I'll re-post the pic here for convenience:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=151645&stc=1&d=1251940669

The JL's were the best subs I had ever heard for music. I have quite a few SACD's and DVD-A's with some excellent bass recordings. I also have quite a few concert DVD's, HD-DVD's and BluRays. The JL's made the bass on those recordings sound more like *music* than anything else I've ever heard. I was actually very reluctant to sell them because I was afraid I would never be able to duplicate that sound quality.

However, their performance for Home Theater left something to be desired. I have a THX Ultra2 speaker system, (Atlantic Technology 8200e's, 3 of the L/R's up front behind an Acoustically Transparent screen, with SR's for surrounds). They are driven by an Earthquake Cinenova amp, (325 wpc into 8 ohms, 650 wpc into 4-ohms). The speakers and amps were definitely capable of full Reference Level... but the JL subs were holding them back. On scenes with really deep VLF effects, I couldn't get much above -15 to -12 before the subs would hit the "limiters", (and the limiters on the JL's are really obnoxious, with their "clacking" sound).

In my room, the dual JL's could hit about 100 dB before the limiters kicked in, unless the content had bass below about 30 Hz. Then the max output dropped as the frequency dropped. Some of the VLF bass spectaculars, like Pulse, Cloverfield, M&C, WotW, Ironman etc., were not playable unless the MV was kept below -15.

I recently went to a friends' house to check out his theater. He's an AVS member, and he has a Klipsch THX Ultra2 speaker system with 4 Klipsch THX Ultra2 subs driven by a pair of the 1 kilowatt amps. His system is in a large, but fully sealed room. His system is easily capable of full RL at the seats, with headroom. I was floored by the sound, especially the bass. Right then and there, I decided I needed a subwoofer upgrade.

Enter the Submersives. Where the JL's were two 12" drivers in very small, sealed boxes, the Submersives are four 15" drivers in much larger sealed boxes. The JL drivers (probably) have more excursion (xMax) than the Seaton drivers. However the total air movement capability of four 15" drivers overwhelms the capability of two 12" drivers. Where the JL subs were moving like crazy to attempt to produce output, the four Seaton drivers are loafing along, barely breaking a sweat, producing the same, (and much more), output.

The resultant sound is...

...well, let's just say that the Submersives do everything the JL's did in terms of sound quality for music, (in fact, they provide the same sound quality at significantly higher SPL's), while at the same time, providing the massive output and extension I desired for Home Theater. Reference Level is now a piece of cake for my system, even with the bass spectacular's! In fact the system sounds like it has plenty of headroom left, even with the deepest LF soundtracks.

These Submersives are the best upgrade I have implemented in my system since I went with 3 identical front speakers behind an Acoustically Transparent screen. I have lost *nothing* in terms of sound quality and I have gained massive output capability and VLF externsion.

Mark Seaton, I couldn't be happier. Your subs have definitely taken my system to the next level. The whole system plays back louder, cleaner and "better" with your subs than it ever did with the dual JL F112's*.

*Having said all that, I don't want, in any way, to disparage the JL subs. I think, for what they are, (small, sealed, well built and executed subs), they have no peer. They simply have limitations. I wanted to go beyond those limitations, and the Submersives allowed me to do so.

Craig

What about dual F113? how would that compare or are the result the same? "Submersive comes out on top"?????

What about dual F113? how would that compare or are the result the same? "Submersive comes out on top"?????
The F113 has 1 Hz deeper extension, (18 Hz vs. 19 Hz) and ~3 dB more output. It has the same limiters that the F112 has. I haven't done the comparison, but I wouldn't expect the results to be alot different.

Craig

What about dual F113? how would that compare or are the result the same? "Submersive comes out on top"?????

i think the problem with the JL's is they just are not designed to go very low because of the built in undefeatable HP filter

you could use a whole room full of gothams and they would still only go so low

The F113 has 1 Hz deeper extension, (18 Hz vs. 19 Hz) and ~3 dB more output. It has the same limiters that the F112 has. I haven't done the comparison, but I wouldn't expect the results to be alot different.

Craig

I have listened to dual F113s. They hit a lot harder than the 100dB that Craig stated his F112s were limited to. They easily hit reference levels, because that is what I listened at! ;) Granted, they were in a treated demo room, with who knows what pushing them. All I am trying to convey is YMMV.

I have listened to dual F113s. They hit a lot harder than the 100dB that Craig stated his F112s were limited to. They easily hit reference levels, because that is what I listened at! ;) Granted, they were in a treated demo room, with who knows what pushing them. All I am trying to convey is YMMV.
Let me clarify something. That 100 dB was at the seats in my rather large, leaky, heavily treated room. In a smaller, sealed room, they could probably produce more output. I never measured their total output outdoors, groundplane.

Craig

Let me clarify something. That 100 dB was at the seats in my rather large, leaky, heavily treated room. In a smaller, sealed room, they could probably produce more output. I never measured their total output outdoors, groundplane.

Craig

Totally understand. Not to mention, a single SubMersive is a much better deal than dual F113s (even if you do get them at half price ;) ).

Thanks for your impressions craig... another happy owner.... all of marks speakers just seem to loaf around... especially the catalysts....... :)

Whats up with all these lazy speakers?

Sean

Thanks for your impressions craig... another happy owner.... all of marks speakers just seem to loaf around... especially the catalysts....... :)

Whats up with all these lazy speakers?

Sean
They are pretending to wait for the rest of the industry - especially the content/software gangs - to catch up .... ;)

duwdu

Deleted for inadvertent double post (same as 2335.)

I recently went to a friends' house to check out his theater. He's an AVS member, and he has a Klipsch THX Ultra2 speaker system with 4 Klipsch THX Ultra2 subs driven by a pair of the 1 kilowatt amps. His system is in a large, but fully sealed room. His system is easily capable of full RL at the seats, with headroom. I was floored by the sound, especially the bass. Right then and there, I decided I needed a subwoofer upgrade.

Craig

Sounds like you were impressed by the Klipsch system - and subs. How do the Submersives compare to the Klipsch subs? How big is your friend's room with the four subs?

I have two Klipsch THX Ultra 2 subs and really do like them. I'm always, however, looking for the next "best" thing in my system and wondered if the Submersive (pair) is it. I also have the full Klipsch THX system, and do think it sounds fantastic.

I have listened to dual F113s. They hit a lot harder than the 100dB that Craig stated his F112s were limited to. They easily hit reference levels, because that is what I listened at! ;) Granted, they were in a treated demo room, with who knows what pushing them. All I am trying to convey is YMMV.


Ignoring price for the sake of discussion, wouldn't a more appropriate comparison in terms of number of drivers, & box size be dual Submersives and dual F212's?

I understand that Craig had dual F112's, but it doesn't come as a great surprise.

Even a pair of SVS PB-12 Plus's would outdo the F112 at 20 Hz. In the recent comparison done by Brent Butterworth of Sound&Vision, a single PB-12 Plus had its Maximum output of 114.8 db at 20 Hz, while a single F112 achieved 95.4 db at 22.5Hz. Butterworth did not push the F112 to 20 Hz because "below that (22.5 Hz), distortion was above 10% at all settings".

It could be years before anyone has a pair of F212s and a pair of Submersives for direct comparison.

Then to, as OTK would say, even a room full of F212s wouldn't compare because of their built-in HP filter.

On the other hand, when people on this Forum went on the factory tour of J L Audio, they seemed mightily impressed in the room with a combination of about 7 F113s and F112s.

Spyboy,

I was only trying to convey that the dual F113s I listened to were leaps and bounds better than the 100dB max that Craig's F112s were limited to. So when Craig responded to someone asking about the F113 with the below quote, I thought I would offer up my 'real world' experiences with the F113. I wasn't comparing the F113 to the SubMersive, rather comparing my experience with dual F113s to Craig's experience with dual F112s.

I'm not qualified to answer your SubMersive vs F113 vs F212 question. I wish I were!

The F113 has 1 Hz deeper extension, (18 Hz vs. 19 Hz) and ~3 dB more output. It has the same limiters that the F112 has. I haven't done the comparison, but I wouldn't expect the results to be alot different.

Craig

I just listened to several songs on The Eagles, Farewell 1 Tour on HD DVD in DTS-MA on the new Submersives. I listened at -3 MV, which is about 10 dB louder than I've ever listened to it before. Words can't describe it... that's all I can say.

Shakes head...

Goes to bed...

:)

Craig

Hi Craig,

Sorry for being late to jump in here with the thanks for your very detailed reporting of your experience, this week has been a busy one. :)

As nice as it was to read your long account above, this post is what I'm really after. To steal/paraphrase Keith Yates... "It's about the goosebumps..."

I have had nearly the same experience you describe above through the process of developing the SubMersives, Catalysts and Sparks (Catalysts + dual SubMersives change that "Shakes head..." to a "Big affirmative nodding..." :cool:

While not out on Blu-Ray yet, if the music is of interest, I'd suggest grabbing Peter Gabriel's "Growing Up Live" DVD. The video is so-so, but the performance is quite good.

Have you had a chance to go back to the posts Sean & I made earlier about using the AudioToolkit DVD to subjectively tweak the speaker & surround delays?

A few other DVD Concert recommendations for those that like Music on BD.

Dave Matthews and Tim Reynolds: Live at Carnegie Halll
David Gilmor: Remembert that night.....
Either of the two Chriss Botti BD's are great sounding
Eageles: hell freezes over and farewell I tour are both excellent
Fleetwood Mac: The Dance
and most recently the BD of Diana Krall live in Rio.... The older live in paris is also pretty good.....
Anything by Phish.....

I have hundreds more but these are the ones that sound better than the rest....


Mark,

who was that piano player you were playing the concert of at Deepak's in NJ..... I need to rent that from netflix and give it a listen

Sean

BTW: Stop Making sense comes out in Oct on BD. Also Song remains the same but I dont expect good sound on the later. I can't think of any zep recording that qualifies as audiophile quality. Too bad as they are the greatest band in rock and roll....

EDIT and of course the The Concert Event of the Year (http://www.amazon.com/Jonas-Brothers-Concert-Experience-Blu-ray/dp/B001NPD9OK/ref=sr_1_36?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1252087179&sr=1-36)

Sean

Mark,

who was that piano player you were playing the concert of at Deepak's in NJ..... I need to rent that from netflix and give it a listen

Sean

Good recommendations Sean. I'm also very curious about the BB King Blu-Ray concert.

The concert you are recalling was Jamie Cullum, Live at Blenheim (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000654YWE/ref=pd_lpo_k2_dp_sr_3?pf_rd_p=486539851&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=B0001XANUI&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=0K1HDNGTNYC9NA2J2AM9).

Hi Craig,

Sorry for being late to jump in here with the thanks for your very detailed reporting of your experience, this week has been a busy one. :)

As nice as it was to read your long account above, this post is what I'm really after. To steal/paraphrase Keith Yates... "It's about the goosebumps..."

I have had nearly the same experience you describe above through the process of developing the SubMersives, Catalysts and Sparks (Catalysts + dual SubMersives change that "Shakes head..." to a "Big affirmative nodding..." :cool:

While not out on Blu-Ray yet, if the music is of interest, I'd suggest grabbing Peter Gabriel's "Growing Up Live" DVD. The video is so-so, but the performance is quite good.

Have you had a chance to go back to the posts Sean & I made earlier about using the AudioToolkit DVD to subjectively tweak the speaker & surround delays?
:)

Last evening my daughter stopped over to visit. While she was there, I said to her, "You have to hear my new subs." She rather begrudgingly said, "Ohhhh, OKaaay...", just to humor me. So, I sat her down in the sweet spot and I put in Live Free, or Die Hard, the scene where Bruce Willis takes out the helicopter with the police car. She had never seen this movie. I turned it up to full Reference Level. The look on her face was priceless. Her jaw *literally* dropped. She giggled, she laughed, she was stunned. After the scene was over, she said, "That was so cool! I can't believe how clear the sound was. Yeah, it was loud, but it sounded great! That was better than any movie theater I've ever been in! I got goosebumps when the car came flying through the air! I could FEEL it!" She just kept raving about...

She's been in my theater pre-Submersives many times, and has always been impressed. However, after the addition of the Submersives, she was absolutely blown away. This was not just an improvement in the system. It was a clear *leap* forward. I can finally take full advantage of the entire *system* capabilities. Just awesome. Thanks Mark!

Craig

PS. I have that Peter Gabriel DVD. I haven't watched it since I added the Submersives, but this weekend... :)

In my room, the dual JL's could hit about 100 dB before the limiters kicked in, unless the content had bass below about 30 Hz. Then the max output dropped as the frequency dropped. Some of the VLF bass spectaculars, like Pulse, Cloverfield, M&C, WotW, Ironman etc., were not playable unless the MV was kept below -15.
Craig

Hi Craig.
My room is circa 18x20x8 and I have 2 f113's.
After reading your post I tested my subs.
My meter hit 117db at sitting position. (The whole block house, about crumbled).
Is this impossible? Bad meter maybe? I would not think there would be this kind of difference between F112's and F113's
I have never had a limiter kick in, so how would I know when it does.
(Does the sub, shut off or just scale back?)

Thanks for any information.

Thanks for the write up!
Their size would have work very well in my HT room.

Hi Craig.
My room is circa 18x20x8 and I have 2 f113's.
After reading your post I tested my subs.
My meter hit 117db (The whole block house, about crumbled).
Is this impossible? Bad meter possible. I would not think there would be this kind of difference between F112's and F113's
I have never had a limiter kick in, so how would I know when it does.
(Does the sub, shut off or just scale back?)

Thanks for any information.

Thanks for the write up!
Their size would have work very well in my HT room.

My meter read 119dB at reference MV during the lightening and shotgun scenes in Ratatouille when I demo'd the dual F113s.. The first time I demo'd them I forgot my SPL meter. I won't ever make that mistake again!

Hi Craig.
My room is circa 18x20x8 and I have 2 f113's.
After reading your post I tested my subs.
My meter hit 117db (The whole block house, about crumbled).
Is this impossible? Bad meter possible. I would not think there would be this kind of difference between F112's and F113's
I have never had a limiter kick in, so how would I know when it does.
(Does the sub, shut off or just scale back?)

Thanks for any information.

Thanks for the write up!
Their size would have work very well in my HT room.
Your room is smaller than mine by ~ 1,00 cubic feet, plus my room has openings to other spaces, and lots of acoustic absorption. If your room is sealed and untreated, you could certainly be measuring more SPL in your room than I measured in mine.

Also, where you measuring the total signal, or just the subs? If you were measuring the speakers and the subs together, you'll undoubtedly measure more SPL. The 100 dB I referred to was just the subs.

The limiters make a mechanical "clacking" sound.

Editorial Comment: This is the Seaton Sound Submersive thread. I was asked for a comparison of mine to my previous JL subs, and I provided that. However, going forward, let's keep this thread on-topic... Submersives. If anyone else has questions about the JL subs, either PM me or start another thread. Thanks!

Craig

There are some real variables when comparing SPL #'s. The frequency content of the listening material is one of them of course. f112's and especially f113's are capable of tremendous output when you get up to about 40-50hz. Down deep, not so much. that's where compression and the limiters kick in. Other major variables are room size and especially measuring distance. You want to pin the meter and 126db? Just keep getting closer to the sub.

This is the Seaton Sound Submersive thread. I was asked for a comparison of mine to my previous JL subs, and I provided that. However, going forward, let's keep this thread on-topic... Submersives. If anyone else has questions about the JL subs, either PM me or start another thread.

That's fair. This is the SubMersive thread, but most of the recent posts are very informative in regards to comparing the SubMersive to the F112 and F113. By you comparing the F112 to the SubMersive and providing the differences between the specs of the F112 and F113, someone could 'somewhat' deduce how the SubMersive 'might' compare to each.

Back the regular scheduled SubMersive-only talk. I enjoy that too!

Editorial Comment: This is the Seaton Sound Submersive thread. I was asked for a comparison of mine to my previous JL subs, and I provided that. However, going forward, let's keep this thread on-topic... Submersives. If anyone else has questions about the JL subs, either PM me or start another thread. Thanks!

Craig

Agreed Craig.

Guys, Craig had the F112, not the F113. Others have noted the F113 or F212 is a much more appropriate comparison to the SubMersive in terms of capability. Of course most of those questioning skipped over the part where many, even those at JL consider the F112 as having superior sound quality in the upper octave as compared to the F113. The F113 can be overloaded as well, but obviously at a higher level afforded by its larger box, driver and amplifier.

Back to the SubMersive.

That's fair. This is the SubMersive thread, but most of the recent posts are very informative in regards to comparing the SubMersive to the F112 and F113. By you comparing the F112 to the SubMersive and providing the differences between the specs of the F112 and F113, someone could 'somewhat' deduce how the SubMersive 'might' compare to each.

Back the regular scheduled SubMersive-only talk. I enjoy that too!


Plus-1

Editorial comment:
I think we JL owners are SubMersive target buyers too. So I also, was interested in the differences from someone who owned both. If I have more questions I will start a new thread, as suggested.

Thank you for the answer part, of your reply.

...Editorial comment:
I think we JL owners are SubMersive target buyers too. So I also, was interested in the differences from someone who owned both.

Sorry to continue the "editorial" commentary on the JL v SubMersive, but I feel that the following two points should be figured into the SubMersive's analysis: price-to-performance comparison and "bad noises."

In terms of pricing, while it was suggested above that the F212 or the F113 might be "more fair" to compare with, let's not foget that's going in the opposite direction as far as cost-fairness! I know some reports would have us thinking the economic downturn is over, but $$ is still a major "fairness" factor, right? ;)

In terms of "bad noises" I can't overstate how nice it is to never have to worry about the SubMersive "clacking" or "bloating" or "farting" or whatever other words you could use to describe it. I've personally experienced the F113 overloading and limiting in such that it was very distracting and frankly unnerving. Oppositely, in all my SPL-dragging with the SubMersive on demo scene after demo scene, I've never heard anything "bad" - ever. If the SubMersive can't handle something I haven't run into it and I'd apparently not know about it unless I was hawking my SPL meter to see if I'd run out of dBs. :cool: That's exactly the kind of security and ease-of-mind I want when watching any movie or listening to any music. For those who have experienced it, a "bad noise" can shatter the suspension of disbelief that is so magical in movies and music. Thankfully the SubMersive has never broken that spell or I'd be looking for a new sub--I've spent enough $$ and time in this hobby to put up with that anymore.

At the end of the day, I've had the F113 in my house in the same room as my SubMersive and I can tell you there is flat-out no contest in my experience. The JL guys have done an amazing job in such a small package, but as stated above--rather subtely and politically by Mark, there's serious SQ trade-offs in their design (or any sub-compact), and the price is commensurate with their retail business status.

Sorry to have kept the JL talk alive if it seemed OT to anyone, but it is all completely in context with the SubMersive. Even so, if anyone wants to pursue this with me, just PM (not that I really have anything more to add). :)

Sorry to continue the "editorial" commentary on the JL v SubMersive, ...
Maybe it's a subtle difference, but comparisons of the JL's to the Submersives are on-topic. Specific discussion of the JL's is off-topic.

I know the conversation just kind of evolved, but it started to get very JL-specific. And somewhat off-topic. That's all I was saying. :)

Craig

Maybe it's a subtle difference, but comparisons of the JL's to the Submersives are on-topic. Specific discussion of the JL's is off-topic.

I know the conversation just kind of evolved, but it started to get very JL-specific. And somewhat off-topic. That's all I was saying. :)

Craig

:rolleyes:

BTW: Stop Making sense comes out in Oct on BD.

I just watched the DVD version a couple of weeks ago. It's sometimes easy for me to forget what a great show this is. I'm not a huge TH fan but this DVD brings a smile to my face every time I put it in the player. BD on pre-order. This is one I won't mind doubling up on.

Another relatively obscure show you old farts like me might enjoy is Randy Bachman - Every Song Tells a Story (http://www.randybachman.com/main.php?ch=store&bid=ZsmlApWKIIi9JccTGEz1SaNArnRT9zCLoq9EkeObs4JmCOkrGIj1e-Qrle6ADQR167sATfx0o6oDt46GZYIC2w..). This is Randy Bachman (early Guess Who + BTO + solo works) presented in a small venue in "Story Tellers" format. The bad part is that is 4:3 format. The good part is sound quality is outstanding IMHO, especially the bass. The recording presents the bass guitar with an authority, precision, speed and drive I seldom hear in recorded music. The whole recording is great but the bass really stands out to me. Additionally, the performance is very good, the band is quite tight and the production does not take away from the show. Come to think of it, don't think I've listened to this since received my SubMersives. I think I will have to break this out this weekend.

Maybe it's a subtle difference, but comparisons of the JL's to the Submersives are on-topic. Specific discussion of the JL's is off-topic.

I know the conversation just kind of evolved, but it started to get very JL-specific. And somewhat off-topic. That's all I was saying. :)

Craig

No worries. :)

I just can't get over how much the SubMersive is re-energizing me about music and movies again. Way too much fun... :D

I just watched the DVD version a couple of weeks ago. It's sometimes easy for me to forget what a great show this is. I'm not a huge TH fan but this DVD brings a smile to my face every time I put it in the player. BD on pre-order. This is one I won't mind doubling up on.

Another relatively obscure show you old farts like me might enjoy is Randy Bachman - Every Song Tells a Story (http://www.randybachman.com/main.php?ch=store&bid=ZsmlApWKIIi9JccTGEz1SaNArnRT9zCLoq9EkeObs4JmCOkrGIj1e-Qrle6ADQR167sATfx0o6oDt46GZYIC2w..). This is Randy Bachman (early Guess Who + BTO + solo works) presented in a small venue in "Story Tellers" format. The bad part is that is 4:3 format. The good part is sound quality is outstanding IMHO, especially the bass. The recording presents the bass guitar with an authority, precision, speed and drive I seldom hear in recorded music. The whole recording is great but the bass really stands out to me. Additionally, the performance is very good, the band is quite tight and the production does not take away from the show. Come to think of it, don't think I've listened to this since received my SubMersives. I think I will have to break this out this weekend.

Sweet, added that to my netflix queue....

I just watched the DVD version a couple of weeks ago. It's sometimes easy for me to forget what a great show this is. I'm not a huge TH fan but this DVD brings a smile to my face every time I put it in the player. BD on pre-order. This is one I won't mind doubling up on.
...

Thanks Sean and Charlie--it's been years since I enjoyed some TH! Dare I hope it rises to the superlative level of other reference-quality offers mentioned above? That's a great list that I'd like to own several of...

BTW, do any of you have (or have heard) Loreena McKennitt's DVD "Nights From Alahambra"? Apparently the recording and mix are supposed to be first-rate. Wondering if it is SubMersive-worthy? ;) I like her music but recordings can make real snoozers out of great concerts if they aren't careful.

Perfect cuts, hex bolts, threaded inserts, WOW Mark, its clear to me that you are my type, a perfectionist. Build quality of the SubMersive is first rate, A++++++ :) GOOD JOB MARK! :cool:
http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/bentvalve/IMG_0168.jpg








The drivers are sweet too.....
http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/bentvalve/IMG_0171.jpg?t=1251824645


Very nice to see the inner workings of the Submersive. Top notch....:cool: I love that finish.

Thanks Sean and Charlie--it's been years since I enjoyed some TH! Dare I hope it rises to the superlative level of other reference-quality offers mentioned above? That's a great list that I'd like to own several of...

BTW, do any of you have (or have heard) Loreena McKennitt's DVD "Nights From Alahambra"? Apparently the recording and mix are supposed to be first-rate. Wondering if it is SubMersive-worthy? ;) I like her music but recordings can make real snoozers out of great concerts if they aren't careful.

never heard that one but added it to the netflix queue. when I first got a DVD player I must have bought 200 concert DVD's and but in the last 5 years the pace has slowed...

I always loved talking heads and have seen that movie 50 times as a teenager... can't wait to see the BD version....


keep em coming folks... I added number of music dvd's to my netflix queue today because of this thread...

Stop Making Sense is my all time favorite concert movie! I first saw it in a theater when it came out in the early 80's. Definitely looking forward to it on BD!

EDIT and of course the The Concert Event of the Year (http://www.amazon.com/Jonas-Brothers-Concert-Experience-Blu-ray/dp/B001NPD9OK/ref=sr_1_36?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1252087179&sr=1-36)

Sean

Someone should be banned for that post! Where are the mods when you need them!!!!!!!

Someone should be banned for that post! Where are the mods when you need them!!!!!!!

Dang, Sean's already snagged this in his netflix que... I waited too long... :rolleyes:

3-D to boot!

Waiting stinks...

:D :p :)

Why did I take apart my SubMersive? Let me give a quick summary as to why my SubMersive was taken apart , it was because I was hoping to find something obviously out of place or whatever. My SubMersive began hunming after I moved it to another place in my room.
This is really simpifying all this but I spoke with Mark a few times and he worked with me on the telephone over several days to try and diagnose this humming I was getting. Yesterday (my 39th birthday) he overnighted some cables that might solve my problem. Well today we talked on the phone a good long time while I performed a few of the mods that could take care of my humming Submersive .
Welp, long story short , as it turns out , I have a bad ground in the outlet I had the SubMersive on. Mark figured this out. Anyhow, thanks for the help today. I very much appreciate it.

I got some Kenny Chesney , Beastie Boys , and a good variety of other artists rocking on my system right now , the SubMersive is rocking as it should.:D;)

Thanks for your help today Mark, I very much appreciate it.:cool:

A few other DVD Concert recommendations for those that like Music on BD.

Dave Matthews and Tim Reynolds: Live at Carnegie Halll
David Gilmor: Remembert that night.....
Either of the two Chriss Botti BD's are great sounding
Eageles: hell freezes over and farewell I tour are both excellent
Fleetwood Mac: The Dance
and most recently the BD of Diana Krall live in Rio.... The older live in paris is also pretty good.....
Anything by Phish.....

I have hundreds more but these are the ones that sound better than the rest....

Sean

Do you have NiN-Beside you in time? If so I would love to hear your impressions of "Burn" with the SubMersive at or near reference level. I have a Velodyne FSR-15 and if I turn my volume up to -20 or higher on my Integra DTC-9.8 the bass drops off severely and I can no longer hear or feel the synthesizer in that song. About 1:20 into the song a very deep bass note belts out and it sounds awesome at lower volumes but when I want to rock out at higher volumes my sub craps the bed.

Do you have NiN-Beside you in time? If so I would love to hear your impressions of "Burn" with the SubMersive at or near reference level. I have a Velodyne FSR-15 and if I turn my volume up to -20 or higher on my Integra DTC-9.8 the bass drops off severely and I can no longer hear or feel the synthesizer in that song. About 1:20 into the song a very deep bass note belts out and it sounds awesome at lower volumes but when I want to rock out at higher volumes my sub craps the bed.
I played that concert hd-dvd yesterday evening, though not at reference. Is it that track that starts with that powerful & deep in and out of phase bass? That is an awesome moment on an already excellent concert disc! I'm sure my SubMersives can handle reference though.

Yesterday I did play a couple of titles at or above true reference level (+0dB), Among them Pulse (the"title track" :D) and Phantom of the Opera (2004).

Pulse is freaking scary at reference, I can tell you that! The pulsating 'heartbeat' must have wrecked heavock in some of my neighbours homes...

Phantom, just like The Fifth Element, is wonderful to listen to because it combines a powerful (womens) voice with a lot of noise on and off. With Phantom it's a full orchestra, 5th Element has a synthesizer and all kinds of racket. A good way to test the dynamical capabilities of your setup! For some reason my hd-dvd of Phantom has a very low sound level, so I played it at +6dB!!

Not everything can be played at reference though. My orange (clipping) lights briefly flicker during Kung Fu Panda ("Skadoesh..!") at -8dB. I bet there is some pretty loud < 20Hz content there though.

Yesterday I discovered my TAG pre-pro couldn't properly handle different cross-over settings for different speakers. In stead of leaving out bass from certain channels or dropping sound levels as you would expect it resulted in a glaring brightness to the sound. I wasted almost 2 hours from my free day off before figuring that one out. After fixing that the sound again became as smooth as silk.

Just played a bit of NiN at reference level and no problem for either SubMersives or Catalysts. Also tried the helicopter downing scene from Die Hard 4.

My ears must be of a different built because Die Hard at least was waaay too loud for my taste. Earth shattering, home wrecking bass I can completely appreciate, but whenever I get the feeling someone is blasting my ears with a megaphone at 30dB+ above regular speech level I turn it down 15-20dB. Are you guys deaf?

Why did I take apart my SubMersive? Let me give a quick summary as to why my SubMersive was taken apart , it was because I was hoping to find something obviously out of place or whatever. My SubMersive began hunming after I moved it to another place in my room.
This is really simpifying all this but I spoke with Mark a few times and he worked with me on the telephone over several days to try and diagnose this humming I was getting. Yesterday (my 39th birthday) he overnighted some cables that might solve my problem. Well today we talked on the phone a good long time while I performed a few of the mods that could take care of my humming Submersive .
Welp, long story short , as it turns out , I have a bad ground in the outlet I had the SubMersive on. Mark figured this out. Anyhow, thanks for the help today. I very much appreciate it.

I got some Kenny Chesney , Beastie Boys , and a good variety of other artists rocking on my system right now , the SubMersive is rocking as it should.:D;)

Thanks for your help today Mark, I very much appreciate it.:cool:

I am quoting myself because I wanted to add something:

Id appreciate it if one or two fellow SubMersive owners would put a cheater plug on your SubMersive and turn it on and tell me if you get a hum from the SubMersive.

Id just like to get some back-up that all SubMersive amps need a good ground.
Thanks guys, id appreciate it!


Cheater plug......
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/SuperiorAudio/equipment/0107/plug.jpg

A few other DVD Concert recommendations for those that like Music on BD.

Dave Matthews and Tim Reynolds: Live at Carnegie Halll
David Gilmor: Remembert that night.....
Either of the two Chriss Botti BD's are great sounding
Eageles: hell freezes over and farewell I tour are both excellent
Fleetwood Mac: The Dance
and most recently the BD of Diana Krall live in Rio.... The older live in paris is also pretty good.....
Anything by Phish.....

I have hundreds more but these are the ones that sound better than the rest....


I gotta add a few blu-ray discs to your list , imo these are must own titles for any music fans ......

Rush: Snakes and Arrows Live
Celine Dion: A New Day
Foo Fighters: Live at Wembley Stadium
Shakira: Oral Fixation Tour

I am quoting myself because I wanted to add something:

Id appreciate it if one or two fellow SubMersive owners would put a cheater plug on your SubMersive and turn it on and tell me if you get a hum from the SubMersive.

Id just like to get some back-up that all SubMersive amps need a good ground.
Thanks guys, id appreciate it!

As I mentioned on the phone James, it will depend on the system and connected components. Due to a re-wiring project and working to re-create and test different install conditions I currently have my entire system connected with a disconnected ground. There's no hum, but that took some work and tinkering with different connections.

Hey Mark, can you explain what the PROT and CLIP lights mean?

Ive never seen the PROT but I did see the CLIP light flash a number of times last night after we talked. I decided it was time to push the Submersive to its ends. :p:cool::p

Its ok if the CLIP light flashes here and there right? How can a guy determine if its too much CLIP ?

Also what are the CH1 and PGM SEL buttons? <I know theey should be depressed but I am just curious what they do.

http://seatonsound.websitetoolbox.com/file?id=821606

As I mentioned on the phone James, it will depend on the system and connected components.

Hmmm, ok I gotcha now. Though I cannot say I entirely understand. In all the years ive been into HT I cannot say that ive ever run into anything quite like this before. Then again, its possible I threw out or sold a piece of gear sometime in the past that could have been fixed just by changing the wiring around.

I gotta add a few blu-ray discs to your list , imo these are must own titles for any music fans ......

Rush: Snakes and Arrows Live
Celine Dion: A New Day
Foo Fighters: Live at Wembley Stadium
Shakira: Oral Fixation Tour

-man points for the Celine inclusion, +man points for Shakira... Close to a net zero, but I'm inclined to say you're still in the red. :p

-man points for the Celine inclusion, +man points for Shakira... Close to a net zero, but I'm inclined to say you're still in the red. :p



Oh stop lying man, you know you'd hit it.

Hey Mark, can you explain what the PROT and CLIP lights mean?

Ive never seen the PROT but I did see the CLIP light flash a number of times last night after we talked. I decided it was time to push the Submersive to its ends. :p:cool::p

Its ok if the CLIP light flashes here and there right? How can a guy determine if its too much CLIP ?

Also what are the CH1 and PGM SEL buttons? <I know theey should be depressed but I am just curious what they do.

http://seatonsound.websitetoolbox.com/file?id=821606

The PROT light means protection circuitry engaged (red LED) in most instances it automatically re-sets (LED goes off) in a few seconds if it does engage.

CLIP light is a nominal indicator that starts to flash a little prior to clipping. It is not uncommon during higher playback to have this light flash, especially in scenes with very deep bass content at high levels. Most consumer electronics don't have clip indicators as ignorance tends to be bliss in this regard. Sub amps without the light clip just the same or even more. :rolleyes:

Too much is defined by when you start hearing foul noises or "grumbling" complaints from the SubMersive. Other than possibly minutes of continuous VLF sine wave input, you shouldn't be able to hurt anything. If you keep pushing far enough past any audible cues, you might find the point where it calls a time out and the red PROT LED comes on. While that's a rather rare occurrence with SubMersives having serial numbers starting with an 8 or higher, you will at some point get there if you keep turning things up. No, I don't recommend trying to find it.

If you look directly above "CH1" it says mute, and that is all the button does. It is primarily for troubleshooting and during OEM programming (same with the PS-2 connector which looks like an S-Video connection).

PGM SEL determines which of 2 DSP programs are loaded at power up. Pressing this button while the SubMersive is on has no effect. The DSP program will not change until the power is turned off (all LEDs go off), and powered back on. Please leave this in the depressed position. The raised position has a slightly different limiter setting I left myself as an option (frequency response and gain is identical), but at this point I don't recommend this setting. Again, all buttons should be left in their depressed positions.

are you guys deaf?

what? Did someone say something?

I gotta add a few blu-ray discs to your list , imo these are must own titles for any music fans ......

Rush: Snakes and Arrows Live

I wouldn't add this one--no bass at all--you don't even need a sub. Looks great, sounds awful. You have one of the best drummers on earth and you completely leave his sound out. A shame.

The Police Certifiable is the absolute best image and sound quality I have experienced so far.

Joe Bonamassa's Rockplast DVD is also top notch.

I wouldn't add this one--no bass at all--you don't even need a sub. Looks great, sounds awful. You have one of the best drummers on earth and you completely leave his sound out. A shame.

The Police Certifiable is the absolute best image and sound quality I have experienced so far.

Joe Bonamassa's Rockplast DVD is also top notch.

?? I disagree. The reviewer at blu-ray.com has it right.
The bass emanating from the LFE is tight, extremely well defined, and very clean.

You are sure right about Neil Peart , there is no question he is one of the best drumers , not just today but EVER. :cool:

That Police BD is on my BDs to buy list.

Joe Bonamassa? Who is he? Do you have a link to this DVD ?

Joe Bonamassa? Who is he? Do you have a link to this DVD ?

Smokin joe is a blues guitarist. He opened for BB King when he was 12 years old, has gotten better since.

Here you go, a clip from 20 years ago when he first popped up on the scene. You can skip the first minute or so....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLB900atJFs&feature=related

More recent:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gn09Xn9JF5s&feature=related

I was gonna say Shakira too.

Some other great blu-ray concerts:
- Robbie Williams - Live at the Albert
- Within Temptation - Black Symphony
- Hitman: David Foster & Friends
- Legends - Live at Montreux
- Jeff Beck - Live at Ronnie Scott's
- The Berlin Concert - Live from the Waldbuhne (opera)

All come highly recommended...

what? Did someone say something?
I rest my case.. ;)

In addition to songs, I am always on the lookout for high quality sound files.

I know Tom Danley has a few on his website.

I recently came across this website Acoustics Monitoring Program at NOAA (http://www.pmel.noaa.gov/vents/acoustics/sounds_mystery.html). These are the unknown sounds that have been captured, let your imaginations run wild.

I am trying to find the original files, these ones are sped up 10-16x. The original "Bloop" file can be found pretty easily (Bloop (http://www.bloopwatch.org/bloop_realtime.wav)). The others I cannot find.

I'm wondering what these would sound like played back...or if it's safe to playback >.>

Anybody who owns a SubMersive and has not pushed it to its ends is a Pee You Ess Ess Why. :p


You can bet your butt that mine has been pushed, the only negative to this is that once you do this you will know what it can do and what it cannot do.
And of course my bass addiction requires more.

Mark, what do I need for a solid 6 times the performance of the SubMersive, across the board of course. ???:p:p;):p

Say Mark, has Mr. Danley heard a SubMersive? I bet he was impressed with your creation.

Mark, also, what abouts is the displacement total of the SubMersive ?

Anybody who owns a SubMersive and has not pushed it to its ends is a Pee You Ess Ess Why. :p


You can bet your butt that mine has been pushed, the only negative to this is that once you do this you will know what it can do and what it cannot do.
And of course my bass addiction requires more.

Mark, what do I need for a solid 6 times the performance of the SubMersive, across the board of course. ???:p:p;):p
so... wat can't it do? :)

Mark, what do I need for a solid 6 times the performance of the SubMersive, across the board of course. ???:p:p;):p

That's easy to answer. You would need 5 more Submersives.

I would take a look at his Terraform XL.

I know I'm going with a pair. :D

so... what can't it do? :)

I am not sure yet. :p

Wait!, Hmmmmm ok, here is one that some folks might not like. I don't mind because I do not rent movies very often. Anyhow , the SubMersive cannot drive , so when you need to get that BlockBuster rental back on time you are gonna have to get yourself up and drive the video back yourself. So heavy renters may not like this. I buy most movies that I think are worth renting so I don't have a problem with it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by James W. Johnson
Mark, what do I need for a solid 6 times the performance of the SubMersive, across the board of course. ???

That's easy to answer. You would need 5 more Submersives.


Obviously I was just joking, 1 will be all I ever need in my <3000 cuft room.:cool:

Obviously I was just joking, 1 will be all I ever need in my <3000 cuft room.:cool:

phew... almost believed u & feeling kinda down coz I only ordered 1 :p

phew... almost believed u & feeling kinda down coz I only ordered 1 :p

Congrats, U will love it.

Id guess that a single SubMersive would have no problem energizing a ~5000 cuft room.

Congrats, U will love it.

Id guess that a single SubMersive would have no problem energizing a ~5000 cuft room.

:) no prob then for my puny condo living room :D

phew... almost believed u & feeling kinda down coz I only ordered 1 :p
One will only generate the *first* 115 dB. If you want the next 3 dB, you'll need to order the second one.

:D:D:D

One will only generate the *first* 115 dB. If you want the next 3 dB, you'll need to order the second one.

:D:D:D

err... 100dB should be good enuff :rolleyes:;)

err... 100dB should be good enuff :rolleyes:;)


err... no.

err... 100dB should be good enuff :rolleyes:;)

err... no.

I believe Ronnie meant good enough for his neighbors. ;)

One will only generate the *first* 115 dB. If you want the next 3 dB, you'll need to order the second one.

:D:D:D

hey craig, you're only getting 3db off the 2nd sub ?

you should try stacking them right behind your chair :p

i'm just kidding of course. i know you have them positioned for best response

I am not sure yet. :p

... Anyhow , the SubMersive cannot drive , ...
This must be the misstatement of the century... how can a super two-drivers-in-one not be able to drive????? :eek::mad::rolleyes::D

duwdu

This must be the misstatement of the century... how can a super two-drivers-in-one not be able to drive????? :eek::mad::rolleyes::D

duwdu

Well my SubMersive took the written test for a drivers licence today, tomorrow it goes in for the driving test.
If it passes it will get a class C drivers licence so it will be legal for it to drive.


Police Officer: " Does that subwoofer have a drivers licence?"

Me: "Yes sir, it is a licenced subwoofer."

Obviously I was just joking, 1 will be all I ever need in my <3000 cuft room.:cool:

What does "need" have to do with it?:D

You don't "need" a home theater system! In fact, you don't even "need" a TV. It's all about "fun" and as the old Doublement chewing gum commercial used to say "two sticks are better than one". So two SubMersives is "better" than one.... and for me, four will be "better" than two (someday !!). And then six will be "better" than four .........

I believe Ronnie meant good enough for his neighbors. ;)

:cool:

mfine,

I'm placing my order today for 1 submersive. My room is an untreated 6300 cf. den room with hardwood floors with the rear of the room opening up to a 2000 cf. kitchen. I'm curious what size your listening room is? I'm hoping for the sake of marital bliss and checkbook balance this one submersive does it. :) I'll be using the sub 80/20 music/ht.

That arena is screaming for dual submersives.... Alot of space to fill there, I'll be keeping an eye on how long until you add a second... :D

It's official, I'm now part of the Lunatic Fringe.

Warpdrv,

You can now say, "I told you so". I had probably 5 days of using just my new Submersive and then thought maybe I should see how it sounds in tandem with my ol' M&K MX350. The test was Tchaikovsky's 1812 overture.

The cannon shots did make a good deal of difference in impact with the MX350 which as I've tried to convince my wife can only mean I need another Submersive. :D I'm just glad I held on to my M&K until that happens as I first have to upgrade my surrounds.

I have to say the Submersive is an unbelivable performer and I've not heard anything that shows off it's capabilities like those cannon shots. I CAN'T WAIT to hear two of these babies in tandem. Mark Seaton has produced true subwoofer perfection! I don't EVEN want to hear the Catalysts or I'll be bankrupt for sure. :eek:

tbailey... care to share your personal comments on the submersive vs M&K MK350? Was previously considering the M&K :)

Well ive had my SubMersive 3 weeks tomorrow. I am not going to write up a full review but id like to share my thoughts on it.

#1 I upgraded from an MFW-15 from AVONETWOTHREE .:)

My first thoughts on it was the sound quality was a huge step up while output did not seem like that huge of an upgrade. Sound quality simply does not get better than what the SubMersive puts out.

I originally put the SubMersive where the MFW-15 sat , but I was kinda wanting to get more output from my SubMersive so I found another spot in the room with more output from my seating position so I moved it. Then began my humming problem, I am not gonna discuss this again , I spoke about it several posts back if you want to read about it.

Anyhow the best spot turned out to be its original location so I put it back, and I also decided to not be so careful with the gain. ;):p

I decided to push the SubMersive as far as it would go. I did and was impressed but not as much as id hoped for.

Ok, there is a reason I though this and its kinda hard to explain but this is how it is, the SubMersive is all about SQ SQ SQ SQ and more SQ!! It produces bass you are supposed to hear 100% accurately and that is all.

While the MFW-15 and MANY other subwoofers in existence today, and I mean this literally , lets just say MOST subwoofers in existence today tend to CALL ATTENTION TO THEMSELVES. And this adds to the output the listener is hearing. If you are unsure of my experience , let me assure you that I have heard more subwoofers than most of you guys. I am talking in the hundreds. My first HT was in the mid ninety's and my first subwoofer was a Paradigm Servo 15 which even by todays standards is a very capable subwoofer.

The Submersive is one hell of a subwoofer, I am now offically finished with upgrading subwoofers. Yes the SubMersive was expensive but look at how much money I am going to save down the road! MANY THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS!!! THOUSANDS and THOUSANDS!!!
I don't even want to know how much ive spend in the past upgrading subs but I know its a huge number because I have had at least 15 of them.
:cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool:

You can see that I call myself a Pioneer Elitist Bastard VVV its because I own the best HDTV that has ever been produced, a Pioneer Elite PRO-151FD .
I also own the best subwoofer that has ever been produced so I guess I am also a Seaton Elitist Bastard . :D

I demand the best.:cool::D;)

You can see that I call myself a Pioneer Elitist Bastard VVV its because I own the best HDTV that has ever been produced, a Pioneer Elite PRO-151FD .
I also own the best subwoofer that has ever been produced so I guess I am also a Seaton Elitist Bastard . :D

I demand the best.:cool::D;)

And you've heard hundreds of subs...Not sure what kind of beer you drink though...

Just one question: How long before you order that second Submersive?

And you've heard hundreds of subs...Not sure what kind of beer you drink though...


Yes I have heard more than a hundred in 15 years

100/15 = 6.6 subs a year , is that so hard to believe ?

Just one question: How long before you order that second Submersive?

One is plenty for my <3000cuft space. ;)


You guys that are contemplating a second SubMersive, I challenge you to really think this over as I think you are yearning for a sub that calls attention to itself.

Id recommend adding a lesser expensive sub for HT usage and use only the SubMersive for music.;)

^^^^^^Or better yet , train yourself to listen for accurate bass only and be happy with just a SubMersive (that is if your room is under ~5000 cuft.)
Believe me, this is much easier said then done.

One is plenty for my <3000cuft space. ;)
Duals are not too much for my >3,000 cubic foot space. :)

You guys that are contemplating a second SubMersive, I challenge you to really think this over as I think you are yearning for a sub that calls attention to itself.
If placed in-room properly and calibrated, they shouldn't call attention to themselves. In fact, duals can improve the in room FR and make the bass sound *better*.

Id recommend adding a lesser expensive sub for HT usage and use only the SubMersive for music.;)
Why? Movies have more VLF's than music. IMO, the Submersives are just as beneficial for movies as they are for music. Personally, I would *not* advise adding a second, less capable sub to the Submersive, (unless you use it as a mid-bass module perhaps, although the Submersives do mid-bass extremely well.)

Craig

Yes I have heard more than a hundred in 15 years

100/15 = 6.6 subs a year , is that so hard to believe ?

Sorry, I meant to say and you take good pictures of sub innards....:)

Duals are not too much for my >3,000 cubic foot space. :)


If placed in-room properly and calibrated, they shouldn't call attention to themselves. In fact, duals can improve the in room FR and make the bass sound *better*.


Why? Movies have more VLF's than music. IMO, the Submersives are just as beneficial for movies as they are for music. Personally, I would *not* advise adding a second, less capable sub to the Submersive, (unless you use it as a mid-bass module perhaps, although the Submersives do mid-bass extremely well.)

Craig

Hi Craig, yes I agree that any room , regardless of size will benefit from dual subwoofers. Ok, recommending a different subwoofer was a bad idea.:(

There are many subwoofers that call attention to themselves even when in a good position in a room. My point was the SubMersive does not do it as easily as many other subwoofers. And when it is in a good position it will NEVER call attention to itself.

Anyhow, I was speaking more for those that cannot easily afford a second SubMersive. The SubMersive is a very capable subwoofer and a single one can take care of a pretty big area.;)

Quoting Mark:

"The SubMersive was first delivered 3 years ago, and at the outset I intended 2 units to be nice performance for most moderate size theaters with 4 used in big rooms and 1 being plenty for a small space. I was a bit surprised when so many reacted to hearing a single SubMersive in asking 'Why would someone need 2?' "

Quoting Mark:

"The SubMersive was first delivered 3 years ago, and at the outset I intended 2 units to be nice performance for most moderate size theaters with 4 used in big rooms and 1 being plenty for a small space. I was a bit surprised when so many reacted to hearing a single SubMersive in asking 'Why would someone need 2?' "

Look at the speakers Mark makes, the man is as deaf as a doornail. He probably has 4 SubMersives on his PC speakers in his office. :p

................And probably has a pair of Catalysts for his PC speakers.

I have to scream while talking on the phone to him or its "WHAT!?" "HUH!?"
DEAF AS A DOORNAIL I TELL YA!! :p

I don't want to derail the discussion with anything too on-topic, but those who'd like to give thier sound system a serious workout should look into the 2003 film, Gods and Generals.

Best sounding BR I've ever come across. It's too bad there's not more with effort like this. It looks great too.

................And probably has a pair of Catalysts for his PC speakers.

That's just insanity. Catalysts are too tall. Sparks are perfect for the desktop. :p

Unfortunately I'm not sure how much market there is for a $5k 2.1 desktop system. Once I get some pretty finishes on more products, I might have to get around to a more impressive 2.1 system I've been considering for quite a while. :cool:

One is plenty for my <3000cuft space. ;)


You guys that are contemplating a second SubMersive, I challenge you to really think this over as I think you are yearning for a sub that calls attention to itself.

Id recommend adding a lesser expensive sub for HT usage and use only the SubMersive for music.;)

I also wouldn't recommend a lesser sub, but I do understand a bit what you're saying. My first sub was the one from the logitech Z5500 kit and it sure had great impact and a tactile feel in my room at the corner loaded position I had put it in. When I moved up to a proper sub, that feeling was gone. It did take some time to get used to clean bass with all it's subtleties, coming from a 'one note boom box', but now I don't want to go back:)

This weekend, I started with measuring the frequency response in REW for equalizing the submersive with the BFD. I was expecting to have to do quite a bit of work since my previous subwoofer didn't integrate that well in the room. The response of the submersive in comparison was amazingly flat:o (1/3 octave smoothing) The other sub had 40db between the peaks and a nasty dip. The submersive didn't have this dip in the frequency response and only mild peaks (6 db, 10 db). The response (radioshack, correction file, C weighted, slow) also did extend to the single digits. It just didn't drop off :o

I think facilitating room integration was one of mark's design goals? If so, I think he succeeded:)

This weekend, I started with measuring the frequency response in REW for equalizing the submersive with the BFD. I was expecting to have to do quite a bit of work since my previous subwoofer didn't integrate that well in the room. The response of the submersive in comparison was amazingly flat:o (1/3 octave smoothing) The other sub had 40db between the peaks and a nasty dip. The submersive didn't have this dip in the frequency response and only mild peaks (6 db, 10 db). The response (radioshack, correction file, C weighted, slow) also did extend to the single digits. It just didn't drop off :o

I think facilitating room integration was one of mark's design goals? If so, I think he succeeded:)

Congrats on your new toy and room setup! Yes, Mark has discussed several times how the freq fall-off of his sealed sub design was chosen to approximately balance the room gain in a typical sized room, to give reasonably even in-room freq response 'way down there' with little intervention of eq. Of course eq, as you are doing, then fixes things up for your specific room situation.

Congrats on your new toy and room setup! Yes, Mark has discussed several times how the freq fall-off of his sealed sub design was chosen to approximately balance the room gain in a typical sized room, to give reasonably even in-room freq response 'way down there' with little intervention of eq. Of course eq, as you are doing, then fixes things up for your specific room situation.

The one thing I didn't expect was that those things specific to my room also were more controlled and didn't need that much fixing at all. Maybe the opposed driver design gives this benefit as you have drivers in two different locations in your room?

u sure it's not just a typical placebo effect? :P

u sure it's not just a typical placebo effect? :P

Well it was a measured result so I doubt it's placebo. :) It can be that this behavior might be just typical for all sealed designs in my room. That 's a thing I do not know. My previous sub was a ported design.

I was just surprised and wondering :)

This weekend, I started with measuring the frequency response in REW for equalizing the submersive with the BFD. I was expecting to have to do quite a bit of work since my previous subwoofer didn't integrate that well in the room. The response of the submersive in comparison was amazingly flat:o (1/3 octave smoothing) The other sub had 40db between the peaks and a nasty dip. The submersive didn't have this dip in the frequency response and only mild peaks (6 db, 10 db). The response (radioshack, correction file, C weighted, slow) also did extend to the single digits. It just didn't drop off :o

I think facilitating room integration was one of mark's design goals? If so, I think he succeeded:)
I had a similar experience. The JL's, corner loaded in the front corners had more FR irregularities than do the Submersives, (placed on either side of the CC). Maybe it's just an altogether better placement, although I had tried it with the JL's and lost a fair amount of output. I opted for output over FR smoothness, and used Audyssey to correct for it.

With the Submersives, Audyssey did more correction in the time domain, and very little in the frequency domain. I then used an SMS-1 to clean up the FR. I needed no more than 3 dB of boost or 6 dB of cuts to achieve a very smooth curve.

Mark, do the dual opposed drivers allow for better room coupling than other designs?

Craig

That's just insanity. Catalysts are too tall. Sparks are perfect for the desktop. :p

Unfortunately I'm not sure how much market there is for a $5k 2.1 desktop system. Once I get some pretty finishes on more products, I might have to get around to a more impressive 2.1 system I've been considering for quite a while. :cool:
Well... you could make the Submersive into a chair!
:)

Mike

Well... you could make the Submersive into a chair!
:)

Mike

The wife would LOVE that!

The wife would LOVE that!

You must not have one yet. A woman would find the SubMersive chair to be rather dissapointing; lots of noise and commotion but absolutely no motion.

You must not have one yet. A woman would find the SubMersive chair to be rather dissapointing; lots of noise and commotion but absolutely no motion.


ROFL - That may just be sig worthy.

You must not have one yet. A woman would find the SubMersive chair to be rather dissapointing; lots of noise and commotion but absolutely no motion.Nor is there anything protruding ^^^ from the top. :p

OK , lets get off this talk! ^^^

I am thinking about getting and EQ , do any of my fellow SubMersive owners have that new SVS AS-EQ1 ?

a friend and i were talking about lugging his new ed a7 900 and placing it next to my submersive. maybe taking a few notes.

a friend and i were talking about lugging his new ed a7 900 and placing it next to my submersive. maybe taking a few notes.

Interesting, I look forward to hearing what you guys have to say after listening to both the A7-900 and SubMersive in the same room.

Interesting, I look forward to hearing what you guys have to say after listening to both the A7-900 and SubMersive in the same room.

So am I.

may need to recruit to move that 900, kinda big.

a friend and i were talking about lugging his new ed a7 900 and placing it next to my submersive. maybe taking a few notes.

YES!!! this is what im waiting for, im about to jump the gun with either a submersive or a7-900 :)

a friend and i were talking about lugging his new ed a7 900 and placing it next to my submersive. maybe taking a few notes.

Please be sure to take a picture or three of the two side by side so I can forward it on to those who feel the SubMersive is a huge subwoofer. :cool:

Please be sure to take a picture or three of the two side by side so I can forward it on to those who feel the SubMersive is a huge subwoofer. :cool:

If we do this you are more than welcome to bring some catalyst over for a demo we are not far away. I have a good room for them I think :)

If we do this you are more than welcome to bring some catalyst over for a demo we are not far away. I have a good room for them I think :)

If you get some Catalyst there, I would drive over from Omaha for a chance to hear them and a Submersive. :)

We need to get a date set so i can start recruiting people to help me get it down to your place i have a feeling the ones that helped me get it in will not want to help again lol

We need to get a date set so i can start recruiting people to help me get it down to your place i have a feeling the ones that helped me get it in will not want to help again lol

Fortunately that's a problem that my customers only have to consider in purchasing one or more Terraform XL subwoofers :cool: (after current orders more will be available in Oct). Of course even the Terraform XL should be more than 100 lbs less in weight.

Having moved my share of 195-435 lb. subwoofers, I have to have a really good reason before I design anything that heavy. :eek: That's not to say a heavy box is bad, but more question how heavy is heavy enough.

well if i wasnt moving it to demo next to one of yours the weight wouldnt really matter since it doesnt move. also wasnt too bad to move it only took 3 people, id want at least 2 to move a submersive anyways the thing is just getting a truck because theres no way it would fit in a car, maybe an suv

i have a pickup we are good there

Come on, you wozzies! I'm almost 70 and managed to deal with my SubMersive all by myself. (This is having it delivered to my 'threshhold', and then managed to manhandle it down the hall--on a hall runner--to the HT, and 'walked' it around to various position.)

not a submersive i have the A7-900 (395 lb)

Hey Mark, since we are going to get this thing done, just wondering if you would want to be there to hear a side by side comparison between my submersive and the a7-900. Its a treated dedicated room. Not going to make a big deal about it we just want to hear some good movie scenes and music. And you are invited if you would like.

Come on, you wozzies! I'm almost 70 and managed to deal with my SubMersive all by myself. (This is having it delivered to my 'threshhold', and then managed to manhandle it down the hall--on a hall runner--to the HT, and 'walked' it around to various position.)
While you should be proud of that feat, I think those guys are more worried about transporting the 400 lbs., refrigerator sized, A7-900 from one house to another. :)
http://www.edesignaudio.com/product_info.php?cPath=2_41&products_id=606
That's a *slightly* more difficult task, even for 2 woosies! :)

Craig

While you should be proud of that feat, I think those guys are more worried about transporting the 400 lbs., refrigerator sized, A7-900 from one house to another. :)
http://www.edesignaudio.com/product_info.php?cPath=2_41&products_id=606
That's a *slightly* more difficult task, even for 2 woosies! :)

Craig

Ouch! I take your point.

well if i wasnt moving it to demo next to one of yours the weight wouldnt really matter since it doesnt move. also wasnt too bad to move it only took 3 people, id want at least 2 to move a submersive anyways the thing is just getting a truck because theres no way it would fit in a car, maybe an suv

Hi Nels,

Just in case there was any misinterpretation, my comment was made in jest.

For safe moving up or down stairs once unpacked, even a SubMersive is a two person job. There are even heavier subs out there (check Wilson Audio), and as you note, once they are in place they don't get moved much. A huge enclosure does have its advantages so long as you can still place the sub in a desirable location to drive the room from.

Hey mark did ya see the post that invited you if you wanted to see this comparison, your catalyst are invited too ;)

Hey Mark, since we are going to get this thing done, just wondering if you would want to be there to hear a side by side comparison between my submersive and the a7-900. Its a treated dedicated room. Not going to make a big deal about it we just want to hear some good movie scenes and music. And you are invited if you would like.


The schedule has been filling up quickly, so timing would matter. Catalysts are beasts to move, but 3 do just barely fit in the Grand Cherokee when boxed up. Smaller packages are much easier. The bigger hurdle is having some available for demo, which again is largely dependent on timing. Keep me posted.

Mark, is this the same ice in the SubMersive amp? >>>
http://www.icepower.bang-olufsen.com/en/company/who/

were both waiting on you to schedule the meet i think ;)

were both waiting on you to schedule the meet i think ;)

what he said! Seriously though, it should be an interesting comparision. Dont know if these two subs have ever sat side by side before. Even if you didnt bring catalyst Mark, you are more than welcome to come over when we set this up.

I would drive to Des Moines for that A7-900-Seaton Submersive comparison.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/42391496@N02/3910515082/in/photostream/

just in case you forgot what one looked like
how do you just get the picture to appear in the post?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/42391496@N02/3910515082/in/photostream/

just in case you forgot what one looked like
how do you just get the picture to appear in the post?
cut 'n' paste...:)

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3466/3910515082_37f65d85de.jpg

Thanks, just watched flight of the phoenix, had to take that little decoration down that the wife got. the lfe in that movie is insane throughout.

James,

I started to say that I agree with you but after giving it more thought, unless you're a subwoofer designer or someone else who is familar with how a sub with a certain design is going to behave, I'd want to put these subs to the test and draw my own conclusions.

What I find is that unless you have been exposed to a lot of different subwoofers and have had time to think through how they're each different, you might be missing out on something that you prefer which can be counter to what someone else says you should prefer.

I also would like to know how you came to the conclusion without hearing both

Half of his conclusion is a slam-dunk. That would be the part about the A7-900 having more output.

James

high SPL output of the a7-900 is less useful than the high sound quality of the SubMersive

- so if you turn the a7-900 down wont it be about the same? if it hits both 110db on 15 - 20hz wont it be the same? you mean the sound of the submersive will be better than the a7-900 on the same level?

Half of his conclusion is a slam-dunk. That would be the part about the A7-900 having more output.

Right, If you can't get more performance in some way from >3x the box volume, you really dropped the ball. :rolleyes:

I will note that most of the advantage of the larger enclosure will be at lower frequencies around and a bit above tuning, as >40Hz it should be rather close. There are of course other factors which play into the subjective comparison depending on the limits of each.

While some love to put their favorite sub atop a virtual Mt. Olympus, I'm rather content the SubMersive at such a smaller size can even be compared. The Terraform XL would be a more direct performance comparison, but at a higher cost.

JimP said......>"I'd want to put these subs to the test and draw my own conclusions."

I agree with what you said above, regardless of what someone says about a subwoofer in a review here at AVS or even a professional review, it still comes down to how it sounds to you in your room with your preferences.


In general sealed boxes have better SQ and are more forgiving to design errors.
In general ported boxes are louder and it is much more challenging to make em sound good.

If you can't get more performance in some way from >3x the box volume, you really dropped the ball. :rolleyes:




LOL, no kidding! :p


What I said a few posts back was just a guess , nothing more. After having thought about it I was wrong, I take it all back.

It really comes down to how much performance is coming from a given box size.

I think both subs are going to rock my room. I know the submersive already does. When it gets closer probably going to take suggestions on movie scenes, music to play for the comparison. Would like to find a weekend that Mr Seaton himself could come over, if he is so inclined. Would be nice to know that everything is set up properly.

tbailey... care to share your personal comments on the submersive vs M&K MK350? Was previously considering the M&K :)

ronnt88,

The difference between the Submersive and the M&K MX-350 is the Submersive of course beats the M&K on output, but where the rubber really hits the road is just how much lower the Sub will go in frequency and it’s musical accuracy. The best example is the cannon shots from the 1812 Overture. The accuracy is astounding with the Sub over the MX. There is NO distortion, (at least with the level I normally listen to music at). The MX alone does seem to strain to get through the cannon shots when played alone, but is unnoticeable when played with the Submersive, so I think the extra M&K helps to pressurize the room a bit more. (The Submersive is placed in the left front corner while the M&K is in the right front corner).

I also was also blown away by how much fuller the dialogue was which I thought was superb before with my existing Salk Songtowers and M&K. I cannot give enough kudos to the Submersive. It’s performance is beyond words. You just have to experience it for yourself. :cool:

To make a long story short, the M&K MX-350 costs as much as the Submersive, but is worlds apart in performance which should make your decision a quite easy one. The only advantage the M&K has is in footprint. Remember though, my den room is 6300 cf. with a large opening to a 2000 cf. room. The M&K may compare better to the Submersive in a smaller room, but I doubt it.

To make a long story short, the M&K MX-350 costs as much as the Submersive, but is worlds apart in performance which should make your decision a quite easy one. The only advantage the M&K has is in footprint. Remember though, my den room is 6300 cf. with a large opening to a 2000 cf. room. The M&K may compare better to the Submersive in a smaller room, but I doubt it.

Very good description on your experience.. many thanks tbailey!

Since obviously you have played it for a while, wondering would you recommend coupling the submersive with MX350?

FYI my present 15" sub was serving me well in my previous 2500 cu ft room but failed
to provide sufficient headroom in my current 4500+ c.f. so I'm looking for some experienced opinion :)

The submersive is arriving here in the next few days, I'll bet it's gonna be an interesting ride.

Since obviously you have played it for a while, wondering would you recommend coupling the submersive with MX350?
I would be interested to hear Mark's opinion on this question: Is it beneficial to use a "lesser" sub with the Submersive?

I have always been of the opinion that this is rarely beneficial. The "better" sub will be limited to the output capability of the "lesser" sub. If the better sub has deeper extension, it won't be realized at a high level due to the limitation of the lesser sub. Of course, wth EQ, this could be compensated by VLF boost of the better sub, but this is hard to get right.

In general, it's is far easier to get 2 subs to work well together if they are the same. That's why I bought 2 Submersives. :)

Craig

I have always been of the opinion that this is rarely beneficial. The "better" sub will be limited to the output capability of the "lesser" sub. If the better sub has deeper extension, it won't be realized at a high level due to the limitation of the lesser sub. Of course, wth EQ, this could be compensated by VLF boost of the better sub, but this is hard to get right.

Craig

I would imagine better result from coupling 2 different subs if their performance in a given room are somewhat *closer*.

My current sub handles pre-"the Haunting"-era soundtracks pretty well even in my current room.
Weeks of REWing in this room offered 2 optional sub placement: Spot 1 gave the best overall response
except for the 35-40Hz dip and booming below 20Hz. Spot 2 had much flatter FR below 40Hz yet severe cancellation in the 50s.
My plan on paper is to start from applying EQ (SMS-1) ,off-loading lowest octave on my current sub (spot 1)
and place Submersive (without EQing) on spot 2.

Obviously the idea to integrate different subs might bring frustration in the beginning and the result must vary from sub to sub and room to room.

thanks tbailey for ur comments... can't wait to get my hands on the submersive then ;)

[QUOTE=ken wu;17166977]

Since obviously you have played it for a while, wondering would you recommend coupling the submersive with MX350?

FYI my present 15" sub was serving me well in my previous 2500 cu ft room but failed
to provide sufficient headroom in my current 4500+ c.f. so I'm looking for some experienced opinion :) QUOTE]

ken,

I do not have an external equalizer, but am using my Anthem D2 processor's "Anthem Room Correction" (ARC) software. I performed the setup using ONLY the Submersive. I later added the MX-350, but didn't re-run the ARC setup. I feel in my situation I'm needing more "oomph" to pressurize the large listening area and that it does sound better in comparison than with the Submersive only.

I did set the reference level down 3 dB on the MX-350 in reference to the Submersive due to the observed greater power handling capabilities of the Submersive. This setup will have to hold me over until I can afford to get another Submersive on its way to replace the MX-350.

I want to, but haven't tried setting ARC up with BOTH the MX-350 and the Submersive. I do plan to try that sometime soon in the future to listen for any perceptible sound improvement. I will confirm you are in for a very fun and interesting ride when your new Submersive arrives. :D:D:D

I see I forgot one:

Jewel - The Essential Live Songbook


Some other great blu-ray concerts:
- Robbie Williams - Live at the Albert
- Within Temptation - Black Symphony
- Hitman: David Foster & Friends
- Legends - Live at Montreux
- Jeff Beck - Live at Ronnie Scott's
- The Berlin Concert - Live from the Waldbuhne (opera)

All come highly recommended...

I also was also blown away by how much fuller the dialogue was which I thought was superb before with my existing Salk Songtowers and M&K. I cannot give enough kudos to the Submersive. It’s performance is beyond words. You just have to experience it for yourself.

Remember though, my den room is 6300 cf. with a large opening to a 2000 cf. room.


What is your SubMersive crossed at?

You've got a big room there, I am curious what speakers you use and how far you sit from them and your SubMersive.

tbailey said
the M&K MX-350 costs as much as the Submersive, but is worlds apart in performance

Mark or anyone else, what are some advantages or disadvantages to the sealed push/pull design like on the M&K MX-350 ?

What is your SubMersive crossed at?

You've got a big room there, I am curious what speakers you use and how far you sit from them and your SubMersive.

James,

The Anthem Room Correction automatically set the sub xover at 80 Hz. My LRC are all Salk Songtowers. My Surrounds are Bose 301's, hence the need to upgrade to another set of Songtowers. :o

James,

The Anthem Room Correction automatically set the sub xover at 80 Hz. My LRC are all Salk Songtowers. My Surrounds are Bose 301's, hence the need to upgrade to another set of Songtowers. :o

Thanks, the reason I asked is because what you said above about dialogue being much fuller.

Is there much dialogue below 80hz ? I thought beside James Earl Jones and a few others there was basically nothing below 80hz ?

I have my SubMersive crossed at 100hz for L,R and surrounds 120hz on the center channel and the LFE is set to 120hz .

Audyssey in my Onkyo 805 sets all my speakers (ELT525s from AV321) to full range which Id guess only uses the subwoofer for LFE only when the speakers are set to full range.

I am just experimenting with the higher crossover as I want to use my SubMersive as much as possible and im trying to get a smoother transition from my speakers to the SubMersive. So far so go. :)

Thanks, the reason I asked is because what you said above about dialogue being much fuller.

Is there much dialogue below 80hz ? I thought beside James Earl Jones and a few others there was basically nothing below 80hz ?

I am just experimenting with the higher crossover as I want to use my SubMersive as much as possible and im trying to get a smoother transition from my speakers to the SubMersive. So far so go. :)

Yep, that's what I thunk too. :p It may be that more of Anthem's ARC resources are being freed up with the low frequencies and are concentrating more in the mid-range.

Mark what are the performance details on the Terraform XL? I can't find anything on your forums.

I'm not sure if this has been asked, but I was curious if anyone switched to Submersive from SVS Ultras or SVS 16-40's?

If so, is there a substantial difference? I own the SVS, and have 4 of them in my room, but I don't always have all 4 going at once. My preference is usually toward the Ultras, but I am curious about the differences compared with the Submersive. Thanks...

I'm not sure if this has been asked, but I was curious if anyone switched to Submersive from SVS Ultras or SVS 16-40's?

If so, is there a substantial difference? I own the SVS, and have 4 of them in my room, but I don't always have all 4 going at once. My preference is usually toward the Ultras, but I am curious about the differences compared with the Submersive. Thanks...

I think there was an entire thread devoted to comparing the SVS Ultra and the SubMersive; should be easy to find with a 'search'.

I'm not sure if this has been asked, but I was curious if anyone switched to Submersive from SVS Ultras or SVS 16-40's?

If so, is there a substantial difference? I own the SVS, and have 4 of them in my room, but I don't always have all 4 going at once. My preference is usually toward the Ultras, but I am curious about the differences compared with the Submersive. Thanks...

This should keep you busy awhile.>>>>>http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/search.php?searchid=13786784

This should keep you busy awhile.>>>>>>http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/search.php?searchid=13784173

Tried your link, got this:
Sorry - no matches. Please try some different terms.

I think there was an entire thread devoted to comparing the SVS Ultra and the SubMersive; should be easy to find with a 'search'.

I did a search and mostly get SVS "SB" series and the PB13's. not the same. I am looking for comparisons to SVS Cylinder subs, the non-powered Ultras and 16-40 cylinder models. I am using external Crown K1 amps to power them. Perhaps this may not be a fair comparison, i.e. Cylinders with tuned ports compared to sealed sub technology?? :confused:

I'm not sure if this has been asked, but I was curious if anyone switched to Submersive from SVS Ultras or SVS 16-40's?

here ya go. this guy owned all these subs

SVS PB12-NSD, HSU VTF-3.3 duals, SVS PB13-Ultra single and duals, Epik Conquest, and an MBM-12

and now has a submersive

http://seatonsound.websitetoolbox.com/post?id=2922335

I've had my dual Submersives for a couple of months but had yet to spend the necessary time really getting them dialed in. I tried them in the back of the room where my SVS subs were and then stuck them by my mains (for cosmetic appeal). I ran Auddysey Pro and let them be. It was very clear that there was much wrong even with the Audyssey correction but it was even more clear that they were the best sub I had ever owned (and that is a very long list).

Mark was in town for CEDIA and I got him to come by and do it right. WOW.

First he relocated both subs and they are no longer symmetrical in the room (one is on the front left side wall and the other is on the opposite side wall near the rear). The UNCORRECTED frequency response after he did his magic was amazing. From about 12 Hz to 50 Hz it was plus or minus 1(ish). And....only down 4db at 5Hz !! There were a few anomalies above that but nothing the Audyssey Pro did not fix.

The ONLY reason I would need four (versus the two I have) it so the room looks more symmetrical (I'm a tad OCD). These things are down right scary. I would truly be concerned about the structural integrity of my room with 4 of these (as well as being concerned about my PJ falling off the ceiling!). My room is about 3800 cf.

I quickly played a few of the standard scenes (U571, Master and Commander, Open Range, etc) and I was blown away (almost literraly with Master and Commander). The man (and his woofs) are amazing.

What a fun product!!!

Maybe Mark will post the FR plots he obtained.

I did a search and mostly get SVS "SB" series and the PB13's. not the same. I am looking for comparisons to SVS Cylinder subs, the non-powered Ultras and 16-40 cylinder models. I am using external Crown K1 amps to power them. Perhaps this may not be a fair comparison, i.e. Cylinders with tuned ports compared to sealed sub technology?? :confused:

I had dual SVS PC 13 Ultras. Trust when I say there is no contest. Not even close. The SubMersive crushes these particular SVS subs.

From about 12 Hz to 50 Hz it was plus or minus 1(ish). And....only down 4db at 5Hz !! My room is about 3800 cf.
Maybe Mark will post the FR plots he obtained.

That sounds amazing! Congrats on the results. You are going to have a big smile on your face everytime you watch a movie with decent bass:D

Mark, I was wondering if you can answer my question about the Terraform XL/Submersive combination. I was wondering if you use the 2 TXLs(without highpass filters) for everything 20hz and lower and 2 Submersives for everything above 20hz, what can you expect from the TXLs? Would this be better in a 4000 cubic ft room than 4 Submersives?

Mark, I was wondering if you can answer my question about the Terraform XL/Submersive combination. I was wondering if you use the 2 TXLs(without highpass filters) for everything 20hz and lower and 2 Submersives for everything above 20hz, what can you expect from the TXLs? Would this be better in a 4000 cubic ft room than 4 Submersives?
LOL. Okay, now isn't the limiter in your brain going "that's just way over the top... I have to stop... I have a sickness..." Or was it blasted out with excessive bass years ago? ;) :D

LOL. Okay, now isn't the limiter in your brain going "that's just way over the top... I have to stop... I have a sickness..." Or was it blasted out with excessive bass years ago? ;) :D

Ha haaa! I think it's just on the edge of reason;) I'm wondering if the two TXLs will be able to go safely into the low single digits at reference, measured at the seating position? Would I just be better off in this situation with more Submersives?

"And....only down 4db at 5Hz !! "
That's great.
Yea, my jaw was on the floor when I saw my chart as well. I have two dips. One at 20hz and one at about 13Hz. After the dip at 13hz I am flat all the way to the end of the Mark's graph, which ends at 8hz. They are probably room related. At the time I had no treatments, but I will be putting some up in a few months. I will be curious to see what, if anything changes.

MikeDuke, what kind of room treatments are around, ive heard of bass traps but do not really know what they do and how they work and how one can determine if they would be of use. Got any links to some subwoofer room treatment school or sumthin? :)

"And....only down 4db at 5Hz !! "
That's great.
Yea, my jaw was on the floor when I saw my chart as well. I have two dips. One at 20hz and one at about 13Hz. After the dip at 13hz I am flat all the way to the end of the Mark's graph, which ends at 8hz. They are probably room related. At the time I had no treatments, but I will be putting some up in a few months. I will be curious to see what, if anything changes.
Don't expect any help from room treatments at 13 or 20 Hz. Even bass traps that are 8" thick won't do much below about 80 Hz. "Superchunks" can help a little below that, but you will need to virtually fill your room with absorption to affect 13 Hz or 20 Hz.

MikeDuke, what kind of room treatments are around, ive heard of bass traps but do not really know what they do and how they work and how one can determine if they would be of use. Got any links to some subwoofer room treatment school or sumthin? :)
www.realtraps.com
www.gikacoustics.com
www.readytraps.com

All of these are commercial websites, but they all have some good background info about how to acoustically treat a room.

Craig

And....only down 4db at 5Hz !!

Nice!

Now get busy watching some of these movies, many of these I have not seen myself because they did not look like good movies. Cloverfield is one I have to at least rent once because I have heard the bass in that movie is fantastic.

Top Movies with Bass From the The Master List of DVD, HD-DVD & Blu-ray Movies with BASS Thread

5 Star
Cloverfield
The Haunting
Flight of the Phoenix
Hot Fuzz
The Incredible Hulk (2008)
Live Free or Die Hard
The Lord of the Rings - The Fellowship of the Ring
The Lord of the Rings - The Return of the King
Master & Commander: The Far Side of the World
Pulse
War of the Worlds

4.5 star
Blackhawk Down
The Dark Knight
Domino
Finding Nemo
Hellboy II: The Golden Army
Horton Hears a Who!
Iron Man
Man on Fire
Mr. & Mrs. Smith
The Mummy: Tomb of the Dragon Emperor
Titan A.E.

4 star
30 Days of Night
300
Babylon A.D
Casino Royale
The Chronicles of Riddick
DareDevil
Fantastic 4
Harry Potter: Order of The Phoenix
The Incredibles
Knowing
Kung Fu Panda
The Lord of the Rings - The Two Towers
The Matrix Revolutions
Max Payne
Mr. Brooks
Open Range
Pearl Harbor
Serenity
Shoot 'Em Up
Stardust
Transformers
U-571
Underworld
Wanted
X-Men 3: The Last Stand
xXx

www.realtraps.com
www.gikacoustics.com
www.readytraps.com

All of these are commercial websites, but they all have some good background info about how to acoustically treat a room.

Craig

thank you Craig.

MikeDuke, what kind of room treatments are around, ive heard of bass traps but do not really know what they do and how they work and how one can determine if they would be of use. Got any links to some subwoofer room treatment school or sumthin? :)

There are a ton of treatments out there to choose from.
You have Tube Traps http://www.tubetrap.com/
You have GIK http://www.gikacoustics.com/
You have Real Traps http://www.realtraps.com/
These Guys are the ones that make "The SubDude"
Aurlaex http://www.auralex.com/
Plus you have acoustic science.
http://www.acousticsciences.com/
Most of those sites have info on them that can teach you about room acoustics. The problem is rooms are not ideal. You have sound collecting in the corners. You have sound just bouncing off of every wall. What treatments try and do is minimize the effect on the room. Some absorb certian frequinces and some reflect others. With the people listed above, you best bet is to contact them directly. When you do, you will be able to discuss your room, and needs so they can better help you. Now, I will be honest, I did not go with any of the above. I did my own research and I found another product that deals specifically with bass issues. I talked to a number of people whom I respect and I read a number of reviews. Based on the feedback I went with them. But, I would rather not post it here as some people may feel that it is impossible for them to do what they do. But I have seen a spectral graph that convinced me. If you are interested in what they are, let me know and I will P.M you.
P.S, I guess I type slow. Craig put some good links uo there.

There are a ton of treatments out there to choose from.
You have Tube Traps http://www.tubetrap.com/
You have GIK http://www.gikacoustics.com/
You have Real Traps http://www.realtraps.com/
These Guys are the ones that make "The SubDude"
Aurlaex http://www.auralex.com/
Plus you have acoustic science.
http://www.acousticsciences.com/
Most of those sites have info on them that can teach you about room acoustics. The problem is rooms are not ideal. You have sound collecting in the corners. You have sound just bouncing off of every wall. What treatments try and do is minimize the effect on the room. Some absorb certian frequinces and some reflect others. With the people listed above, you best bet is to contact them directly. When you do, you will be able to discuss your room, and needs so they can better help you. Now, I will be honest, I did not go with any of the above. I did my own research and I found another product that deals specifically with bass issues. I talked to a number of people whom I respect and I read a number of reviews. Based on the feedback I went with them. But, I would rather not post it here as some people may feel that it is impossible for them to do what they do. But I have seen a spectral graph that convinced me. If you are interested in what they are, let me know and I will P.M you.
I'm interested. Please PM me the info.

Craig

Don't expect any help from room treatments at 13 or 20 Hz. Even bass traps that are 8" thick won't do much below about 80 Hz. "Superchunks" can help a little below that, but you will need to virtually fill your room with absorption to affect 13 Hz or 20 Hz.

Craig

I know Craig. I was just pointing out the dips I had in my room response that's all. I mean, besides 13 and 20hz I my response is pretty flat. I am just wondering what I can expect since I have never had treatments before.

Craig, PM sent.