I'm interested. Please PM me the info.

Craig

ditto

Please tell me in short as to why you would want to absorb the bass in a room, if there is too much id think just moving the subwoofer and/or turning down the gain would take care of your problem.


Please just give me the short answer in layman's terms

If you are interested in what they are, let me know and I will P.M you.


Could you PM me as well. Or email it to me at dbuudo07@hotmail.com

Thanks.

Please tell me in short as to why you would want to absorb the bass in a room, if there is too much id think just moving the subwoofer and/or turning down the gain would take care of your problem.


Please just give me the short answer in layman's terms

Not that I am an expert by any means, but an excess of bass has the potential to smear the rest of the frequency range. I believe that sometimes bass likes to collect in the corners of the room and just "sit" there. By getting rid of that kind of accumulated bass you allow the system to simply play better. With a properly treated room, what you find is that you can actually increase the overall level more then before. I am sure that someone like Craig can come in and give a better answer than what I did.

Please tell me in short as to why you would want to absorb the bass in a room, if there is too much id think just moving the subwoofer and/or turning down the gain would take care of your problem.


Please just give me the short answer in layman's terms

Bass problems happen when the soundwaves bounce off walls, floor and ceiling and either add to or subtract from each other, causing peaks and dips in overall response (that are different in different locations). If you absorb some of the bass, the absorbed bass is not bouncing back into the room and cannot add or subtract, thus you reduce the overall room bass problems.

James and Duudo07, check your P.M inbox.

James and Duudo07, check your P.M inbox.

Thanks Señor Mike:) Looks interesting.

James and Duudo07, check your P.M inbox.

Could you please PM me the info as well?

Mark sent me some measurements from our session yesterday. The green measurement is based upon the original placement next to the Dunlavy's. The purple is the new position after Mark Seaton did his magic. One sub was on the left wall near the front and the other was on the right wall near the rear. The 2nd chart just shows the very lowest frequencies after the speakers were moved. I don't have any of the charts after they were corrected with Audyssey but as you can see, it is VERY usable un-corrected. Down about 4db at 5Hz :D:D:D

Before yesterday, I had emailed Mark and talked to him a few times on the phone. It was clear he knew his stuff based upon what I had heard from my Submersives even before he got here.

The first thing we did was to listen to some two channel stuff -- no subs involved. In 10 minutes, I knew it was going to be a good day since he HEARD (and we then measured) that the left front speaker was 1/4 of an inch (yes, you read that correctly) closer than the right front speaker and he figured this out from the listening position. The man has some serious ears (and a brain).

Incredibly nice (and talented) guy who builds fun products.

http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/audioguy123/Audioguy-Before-After.jpg

http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/audioguy123/Audioguy-VLF.jpg

Audio guy, that second chart is pretty damn impressive. I thought mine looked flat.
Can you give some details? Room size? Any treatments? Have fun with your new system.

... If you are interested in what they are, let me know and I will P.M you.
MikeDuke;

I'll appreciate to receive the info by PM as well.

Thanks.

duwdu

Mark sent me some measurements from our session yesterday. The green measurement is based upon the original placement next to the Dunlavy's. The purple is the new position after Mark Seaton did his magic. One sub was on the left wall near the front and the other was on the right wall near the rear. The 2nd chart just shows the very lowest frequencies after the speakers were moved. I don't have any of the charts after they were corrected with Audyssey but as you can see, it is VERY usable un-corrected. Down about 4db at 5Hz :D:D:D

Before yesterday, I had emailed Mark and talked to him a few times on the phone. It was clear he knew his stuff based upon what I had heard from my Submersives even before he got here.

The first thing we did was to listen to some two channel stuff -- no subs involved. In 10 minutes, I knew it was going to be a good day since he HEARD (and we then measured) that the left front speaker was 1/4 of an inch (yes, you read that correctly) closer than the right front speaker and he figured this out from the listening position. The man has some serious ears (and a brain).

Incredibly nice (and talented) guy who builds fun products.

http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/audioguy123/Audioguy-Before-After.jpg

http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/audioguy123/Audioguy-VLF.jpg

Thanks for the kind words audioguy,

It was fun, and it seems there is never enough time. Since I don't know if it was clear to those reading along, the graphs above are using absolutely zero external EQ. The differences here were just had in moving the location of the two subwoofers. Both subs were driven directly from my TEF with their level knobs set identically. Audyssey did attack the 2 peaks in the upper range after we ran it, and pulled some energy out in a few other places. The result worked very well after I measured the sub channel levels with the Audio Toolkit DVD and upped the sub level about 6dB.

To re-iterate, the changes in the graph above required no external equipment. Just the patience and knowledge to keep trying other likely placement combinations.

Good job, Mark!

^^ more proof that Mark Seaton is the King Of Bass, Master Of The Deep, etc. etc. :D:cool:;)

Anybody reading this thread , you have not heard good bass until you have heard a SubMersive do its thing. Bass does NOT get any better than this, period. Email Mark and get your order for one going A.S.A.P. The sooner you order one the sooner you will know what I am talking about.

Thanks for the kind words audioguy,

It was fun, and it seems there is never enough time. Since I don't know if it was clear to those reading along, the graphs above are using absolutely zero external EQ. The differences here were just had in moving the location of the two subwoofers. Both subs were driven directly from my TEF with their level knobs set identically. Audyssey did attack the 2 peaks in the upper range after we ran it, and pulled some energy out in a few other places. The result worked very well after I measured the sub channel levels with the Audio Toolkit DVD and upped the sub level about 6dB.

To re-iterate, the changes in the graph above required no external equipment. Just the patience and knowledge to keep trying other likely placement combinations.
That was Bass Very Well Done Mark, thanks for your person;

And, do have some serious fun audioguy. I am on my way there as well ... very soon, very soon.

Mark, as you are aware, I should have at least one forum announcement to make after you address my progress email to you of yesterday.

duwdu (Ola)

Anybody reading this thread , you have not heard good bass until you have heard a SubMersive do its thing. Bass does NOT get any better than this, period. Email Mark and get your order for one going A.S.A.P. The sooner you order one the sooner you will know what I am talking about.

Believe me James, there's always something better... Of course we really should be poking fun at you noting you are a long way from hearing what the SubMersive can really do while limited by those cute little speakers powered by just a receiver. :cool:

Believe me James, there's always something better... Of course we really should be poking fun at you noting you are a long way from hearing what the SubMersive can really do while limited by those cute little speakers powered by just a receiver. :cool:

Ha haaa haaa! That was a funny post. James, the man is hinting at a Spark or even a Catalyst upgrade;)

Oh I know exactly what Mark is hinting at. Ive been in the speaker forums reading up on Mark's , Danley's and JTR speakers. I want some Catalysts but they are a bit more than id like to spend and they are too big for my room.
AV321 is running a special on the Rockets which is more around my budget but the truth is my ELT525s and the SubMersive are doing very good. Any speaker upgrade I do is 100% out of want , I do not need any upgrade, I am very happy. :D


I got , The Police: Certifiable Blu-ray rocking right now. :)

(BTW to all SubMersive owners I highly recommend this BD, wether your a Police fan or not the soundtrack is absolutely reference quality!! )
http://images.blu-ray.com/movies/covers/3615_medium.jpg

Thanks for the kind words audioguy,

It was fun, and it seems there is never enough time. Since I don't know if it was clear to those reading along, the graphs above are using absolutely zero external EQ. The differences here were just had in moving the location of the two subwoofers. Both subs were driven directly from my TEF with their level knobs set identically. Audyssey did attack the 2 peaks in the upper range after we ran it, and pulled some energy out in a few other places. The result worked very well after I measured the sub channel levels with the Audio Toolkit DVD and upped the sub level about 6dB.

To re-iterate, the changes in the graph above required no external equipment. Just the patience and knowledge to keep trying other likely placement combinations.
Hi Mark,

When you do these kinds of setups, do you focus on the sweet spot, or do you look at a larger area? The reason I ask is that a 1/4" difference in distance of the L/R speaker can happen just by cocking your head a little. I don't sit perfectly still when watching a movie or listening to music. How good is the response at listening positions other than the sweet spot, and how good is it within the "sweet area"?

Craig

I don't sit perfectly still when watching a movie or listening to music.


What? Then you will never hear any music or movies as they were meant to be heard. Can't sit perfectly still? ,Sheesh! :rolleyes:
-
-
:D;)

I got , The Police: Certifiable Blu-ray rocking right now. :)

(BTW to all SubMersive owners I highly recommend this BD, wether your a Police fan or not the soundtrack is absolutely reference quality!! )
http://images.blu-ray.com/movies/covers/3615_medium.jpg

What did I tell ya James! Now put on that Rush Blu-ray and see how lacking it is in bass. The Police disc is the best so far.

What did I tell ya James! Now put on that Rush Blu-ray and see how lacking it is in bass. The Police disc is the best so far.

You were right, the Police disc is fun. But still, the Rush disc is very good, if anything the bass is a bit heavy on the Police disc. Regardless though , it is fun. But so is the Rush disc. They are just different. And to be honest , the Rush disc is probably more realistic. But who cares, I like em both.
have a good one and thanks for mentioning that Police disc the other day. :)

Audio guy, that second chart is pretty damn impressive. I thought mine looked flat.
Can you give some details? Room size? Any treatments? Have fun with your new system.

The room is 17.5 feet wide; 22.5 feet long and 9.75 feet high. There are bass traps floor to ceiling in each of the four corners and bass traps built into sofits in the rear wall/ceiling intersection as well as the left and right wall/ceiling intersection. The room was designed by Rives Audio.

As to the 1/4 inch, that related to two channel only. Any yes, head movement will affect the image but what Mark heard (and we then fixed) definitely affected the overall stage in two channel. With room correction, that would have been dealt with but I don't need room correction for two channel. That would have been very difficult to hear in surround sound/movies.

Oh I know exactly what Mark is hinting at. Ive been in the speaker forums reading up on Mark's , Danley's and JTR speakers. I want some Catalysts but they are a bit more than id like to spend and they are too big for my room.
AV321 is running a special on the Rockets which is more around my budget but the truth is my ELT525s and the SubMersive are doing very good. Any speaker upgrade I do is 100% out of want , I do not need any upgrade, I am very happy. :D



Just have to ask, did you take apart those ELT525s? ;)

To re-iterate, the changes in the graph above required no external equipment. Just the patience and knowledge to keep trying other likely placement combinations.


I think that says a lot in favor of trying other subwoofer locations before using electronic EQing.

just have to ask, did you take apart those elt525s? ;)
rotfl ...

The room is 17.5 feet wide; 22.5 feet long and 9.75 feet high. There are bass traps floor to ceiling in each of the four corners and bass traps built into sofits in the rear wall/ceiling intersection as well as the left and right wall/ceiling intersection. The room was designed by Rives Audio.

As to the 1/4 inch, that related to two channel only. Any yes, head movement will affect the image but what Mark heard (and we then fixed) definitely affected the overall stage in two channel. With room correction, that would have been dealt with but I don't need room correction for two channel. That would have been very difficult to hear in surround sound/movies.

That is a nice size room. It's close to 4 times the size of my room. Man that must be great. I have been in nice size rooms before at the store I used to goto. It was very nice. But, we all have some sort of limitations and right now room size is mine. But the SubMersive that I have in the room plus the rest of my system really makes it fun to watch movies. I am sure your room is quite the experience as well.

The reason I ask is that a 1/4" difference in distance of the L/R speaker can happen just by cocking your head a little.

Mark's positioning optimized the bass response mostly below 50 hz. where the wavelengths are over 20 feet and the 1/4 wavelength is over 5 feet. Moving your head a few inches will make no difference at these frequencies.

Is there a formula for this type of placement?

Mark's positioning optimized the bass response mostly below 50 hz. where the wavelengths are over 20 feet and the 1/4 wavelength is over 5 feet. Moving your head a few inches will make no difference at these frequencies.
He moved one of the main speakers 1/4", and it impacted imaging. He did this without the subs involved.

The first thing we did was to listen to some two channel stuff -- no subs involved. In 10 minutes, I knew it was going to be a good day since he HEARD (and we then measured) that the left front speaker was 1/4 of an inch (yes, you read that correctly) closer than the right front speaker and he figured this out from the listening position. The man has some serious ears (and a brain).

Craig

Hi Mark,

When you do these kinds of setups, do you focus on the sweet spot, or do you look at a larger area? The reason I ask is that a 1/4" difference in distance of the L/R speaker can happen just by cocking your head a little. I don't sit perfectly still when watching a movie or listening to music. How good is the response at listening positions other than the sweet spot, and how good is it within the "sweet area"?

Craig

Hi Craig,

Good question.

Two points of confusion here. First, Audioguy has 2ch listening as a significant part of his listening where he has a Jeff Rowland preamp (with HT bypass/pass-through mode) and big Bryston monoblocks driving a pair of Dunlavy SC-V speakers (dual 10" woofer version) in a room he has spent some time treating. Subjective space, imaging and depth are largely dependent on the right ("good") room reflections (see Floyd Toole's book). To get more stable imaging at the listening position, symmetry becomes very important. This has less to do with the triangle formed between you and the speakers, but rather the overall symmetry of how the speakers energize the room (with reflections). So in this case we would more ideally want to have symmetry not only between the listening location and the speakers, but also within the room.

The second confusion is the 1/4" offset. It was actually a little more than that. The front to back offset in the speakers was about 1/4", and we then found one speaker to be a little closer to the side wall. The difference was probably closer to 3/4-1" in distance to the listening position. Note that at high frequencies, our hearing does give us the acuity to generally find the center balance point within about a 1/4".

Here's how it went... The seat was in the middle, and the visual ques in the room such as the screen and center channel gave a clear feel for sitting in the middle of the room. I noticed the image was mostly in the center, but very slightly pulled to the left from the comfortable listening position. The aim of speakers appeared to be pretty symmetrical, and I have observed the effect before, where most often it is a distance difference, where the closer speaker will pull the image, even if the levels measure almost identical. Remember that time of arrival dominates the apparent sound source much more than level.

Getting this the distance a little closer to equal for 2ch listening makes it easier to make fine adjustments in toe in and other aspects to get the particular subjective soundstaging you are after.

In multi-channel & HT use the left and right speakers are not relied on as much to produce this exact center image, as that's why we have a center channel. Some asymmetry is not as obvious in listening, especially if you have a more absorptive space. That's not to say it doesn't help. In listening to soundtracks, these little changes to audioguy's speakers made for a little larger front soundstage, better filling the room out to or past the side walls making the sound just a bit more dramatic and more in scale with the screen.

I always look to get the sound to be subjectively larger than the screen, else the presentation seems small in scale and not as enveloping or convincing, nor as comfortable to enjoy a movie in.

These aren't things others can't do. These are details you just have to identify as something which can readily be affected with some careful attention and experimenting. Things do progress much more quickly with some knowledge of what conditions can cause the effects you are or are not hearing.

Thanks, Mark. I always appreciate the knowledge you share.

Craig

Ive been trying some things out with my def tech 7002 speakers and the submersive. With my pioneer sco5 I can set the speakers to small and sub to yes, or I set them to large and sub to plus. I ran some bass scenes and the differences are small but I think I felt more bass with the fronts set to large and sub to plus. Any opinions on this? Trying to get things dialed in before we bring over the ed 900.

Ive been trying some things out with my def tech 7002 speakers and the submersive. With my pioneer sco5 I can set the speakers to small and sub to yes, or I set them to large and sub to plus. I ran some bass scenes and the differences are small but I think I felt more bass with the fronts set to large and sub to plus. Any opinions on this? Trying to get things dialed in before we bring over the ed 900.

we were just talking about this in another thread

apparently there are some receivers out there where if you set your speakers to small and let's say for example you pick a 40hz crossover setting. the receiver will chop off everything above the crossover point from the LFE channel ?

in other words, set your mains to small 40hz, the receiver takes the LFE channel and tosses out 40-120hz. if 80hz is your crossover setting then 80-120hz is tossed out of the LFE channel

sounds like a dumb "feature" i was told that there are some receivers that function this way

this person said the receiver takes the high passed "small" channels, mixes them with the LFE channel then applies a low pass crossover to the subwoofer output

I was just looking at the Submersive info on the Seaton Sound Discussion Forum last night (link (http://seatonsound.websitetoolbox.com/post?id=3366417)).
Based on this thread, it seems that in addition to the high value of the subs themself, having Mark come out to set up and adjust the sub and other speakers is of very high value.

What is the cost of a Seaton visit.
Please PM if this isn't thread appropriate, but it seems like it is related to the subs and to many of the most recent posts (and likely of general interest).

Thanks

Mike

PS - The dangerously close proximity of Seaton hasn't escaped me.:eek::)

we were just talking about this in another thread

apparently there are some receivers out there where if you set your speakers to small and let's say for example you pick a 40hz crossover setting. the receiver will chop off everything above the crossover point from the LFE channel ?

in other words, set your mains to small 40hz, the receiver takes the LFE channel and tosses out 40-120hz. if 80hz is your crossover setting then 80-120hz is tossed out of the LFE channel

sounds like a dumb "feature" i was told that there are some receivers that function this way

this person said the receiver takes the high passed "small" channels, mixes them with the LFE channel then applies a low pass crossover to the subwoofer output
Older receivers used to do this. However, most newer receivers don't do this. If a receiver is capable of decoding DTS MA or Dolby TrueHD, it definitely won't do this. If it was made before these technologies, it's a crap-shoot. If it has a "set-able" LFE LPF it definitely won't do this.

Craig

Older receivers used to do this. However, most newer receivers don't do this. If a receiver is capable of decoding DTS MA or Dolby TrueHD, it definitely won't do this. If it was made before these technologies, it's a crap-shoot. If it has a "set-able" LFE LPF it definitely won't do this.

Craig

yup that's what i thought, that this was on older receivers

Ive been trying some things out with my def tech 7002 speakers and the submersive. With my pioneer sco5 I can set the speakers to small and sub to yes, or I set them to large and sub to plus. I ran some bass scenes and the differences are small but I think I felt more bass with the fronts set to large and sub to plus. Any opinions on this? Trying to get things dialed in before we bring over the ed 900.
The fairer comparison would be with the speakers crossed over to the sub, and the sub alone putting out bass. Otherwise, it will be difficult to sort the differences between the subs if the speakers are also putting out bass.

Craig

Mark's positioning optimized the bass response mostly below 50 hz. where the wavelengths are over 20 feet and the 1/4 wavelength is over 5 feet. Moving your head a few inches will make no difference at these frequencies.

You can definitely move a couple of inches and have a difference +5/-5 dB even blow 50Hz.

My measurements in room show this, its also the reason Audyssey and similar systems require 6 or more measurement positions.

Ethan Winer's data backs up my opinion too.

http://www.penngray.com/htroom/believe-lf.gif
http://www.ethanwiner.com/believe.html

You can definitely move a couple of inches and have a difference +5/-5 dB even blow 50Hz.

My measurements in room show this, its also the reason Audyssey and similar systems require 6 or more measurement positions.

Ethan Winer's data backs up my opinion too.

http://www.penngray.com/htroom/believe-lf.gif
http://www.ethanwiner.com/believe.html
penngray -

I'm not disagreeing with you, but to prove the point it would be valuable to do 3 (or more) measurement sweeps per area/point and look at the average +/- SD to see the error in measurement in the curve as well.

Mike

penngray -

I'm not disagreeing with you, but to prove the point it would be valuable to do 3 (or more) measurement sweeps per area/point and look at the average +/- SD to see the error in measurement in the curve as well.

Mike

You will have to question Ethan Winer, those are his FR plots.

I know that I have to be very careful when comparing subs, AVRs, AMPs and so on because things can be all over the map wrt measurements and its all because of in room reflections and mic placement. Its almost impossible to do it right.

You will have to question Ethan Winer, those are his FR plots.
Roger, roger.
Just pointing out that some of the variation may be from between measurement variability in addition to real differences at each position.
Without seeing that information it is unclear exactly where the variability is from.

Mike

You can definitely move a couple of inches and have a difference +5/-5 dB even blow 50Hz.

My measurements in room show this, its also the reason Audyssey and similar systems require 6 or more measurement positions.

Ethan Winer's data backs up my opinion too.

http://www.penngray.com/htroom/believe-lf.gif
http://www.ethanwiner.com/believe.html

Looks like Ethan needs a Submersive!

Also I forgot to mention that Ethan's measurements are gated : 100ms so they should be accurate.

Everything sounds good with the speakers set to large and crossed at 80 so I'm going to leave them like this for awhile. The def techs do have powered woofers built in.

Set your speakers to small. Let the subs do the bass and let your mains focus on the higher stuff.

Everything sounds good with the speakers set to large and crossed at 80 so I'm going to leave them like this for awhile. The def techs do have powered woofers built in.

you might want to try "LFE + mains" and see how that sounds

some receivers and pre/pros call it by another name but it sends the bass from mains set to "large" to the subwoofer output

some people using full-range (and almost full-range) towers find it useful, some don't

depends on your room's acoustics and speaker/sub placement etc.

Set your speakers to small. Let the subs do the bass and let your mains focus on the higher stuff.

Yes I have done that for a long time but after doing some comparisons I feel it sounds better set to large and sub to plus.

I just placed an order for a pair of SubMersives for my 2537 cf sealed HT. I already have an AS-EQ1 I will be using with them.

Is anyone else using an AS-EQ1 on their SubMersives?

John

I just placed an order for a pair of SubMersives for my 2537 cf sealed HT.

Congrats!

i read this thead back and forth, and finally decided to go for one. I just bought a pair of MFWs a month ago, I decided to keep them as they are good for what they cost, but ordered the submersive yesterday in black oak. Seaton was very easy to get in touch with, very nice and courteous over the phone, and it is scheduled to ship next week. I currently own a SVS PC 13 Ultra, PB12-plus/2, dual MFWs and a few others. I already have a antimode 8033 so we will see how it all works out. :D

I just got my job today, a few paychecks and I'll be placing my order! Its been great reading through both this forum and Mark's to keep me salivating in the meantime =D

Congrats John H. and Freakyshiat.

it REALLLY came down to a A7S-650 or a submersive, but the amp in the submersive and overall absolutely glowing feedbacks from current owners made me blindly go for it. And I am sure i will have no regrets. Just need some luck so it gets here safe and sound :D:D:D

Excellent! Welcome new SubMersive owners!!!!

Anyone on the fence still , what are you waiting for ?!?!?
Get those SubMersives ordered!!!

Estimated shipping date for my SubMersive to good old England is 17th September or 22nd September, PLEASE!! let it be tomorrow!!!
I can't wait to see what you guys are enjoying!!

MikeDuke;

You probably overlooked the following request of mine (post #2511 I think.)

TIA.

duwdu

MikeDuke;

I'll appreciate to receive the info by PM as well.

Thanks.

duwdu

I just placed an order for a pair of SubMersives for my 2537 cf sealed HT. I already have an AS-EQ1 I will be using with them.

Is anyone else using an AS-EQ1 on their SubMersives?

John

John, I'm running a SubMersive with the SVS AS-EQ1.
As good as the SubMersive sounds without any help,
it sounds that much better with the help:)
Here are my before and after graphs:

That's impressive DreamCatcher! What is the -3db low end at? How many SubMersives are you using?

Yes I have done that for a long time but after doing some comparisons I feel it sounds better set to large and sub to plus.
That's fine for your system and your own listening going forward. However, when you do the comparisons with the ED, you should set them to Small with a crossover, and use the same crossover for both. Otherwise, you'll be comparing the interactions of the subs with the speakers and not just the subs to each other.

Craig

John, I'm running a SubMersive with the SVS AS-EQ1.
As good as the SubMersive sounds without any help,
it sounds that much better with the help:)
Here are my before and after graphs:
It should be noted that the "After" graph from the AS-EQ1 is not an actual measurement of the response at any one position in the room. It is a composite of all the corrections made by the AS-EQ1 and applied to the room. As such, it is a purely "theoretical" or "virtual" graph with no physical corresponding measurement. The only way to duplicate that graph would be to take all the exact same measurements and apply Audyssey's proprietary algorithm to the measurements to calculate and set the filters.

I just wanted to be sure that everyone understood that this is not a "standard" FR chart.

Craig

Thanks Craig. I didn't know that's how the as-eq1 worked.

Well, I finally did it. I ordered the Black Oak Submersive today! I have never been this geeked about a purchase of any kind before. If it sounds half as good as forum members say, I will be a happy camper. I have been subless for a while and it is driving me crazy.

More to follow in 10 days or so.

That's fine for your system and your own listening going forward. However, when you do the comparisons with the ED, you should set them to Small with a crossover, and use the same crossover for both. Otherwise, you'll be comparing the interactions of the subs with the speakers and not just the subs to each other.

Craig

I see what you are saying but by that reasoning I should just unhook all the speakers and just listen to the lfe noises. I want to see the interaction between the subs and the speakers. most likely i will set them all to small and use a 80 crossover.

That's impressive DreamCatcher! What is the -3db low end at? How many SubMersives are you using?

I'm running one SubMersive....
and as Craig has pointed out the after graph is a sort of composite of expected FR within a given space and near impossible to duplicate with standard measurements.
I would expect my -3db point to be somewhere between 20hz to 15hz, although I haven't verified that.
But I have verified that it sounds GREAT!

It should be noted that the "After" graph from the AS-EQ1 is not an actual measurement of the response at any one position in the room. It is a composite of all the corrections made by the AS-EQ1 and applied to the room. As such, it is a purely "theoretical" or "virtual" graph with no physical corresponding measurement. The only way to duplicate that graph would be to take all the exact same measurements and apply Audyssey's proprietary algorithm to the measurements to calculate and set the filters.

I just wanted to be sure that everyone understood that this is not a "standard" FR chart.

Craig

Very imp comment, Craig. When people see the EQ1 plots they think the box is magical; but actual (e.g., REW) measurements are quite different.

MikeDuke;

You probably overlooked the following request of mine (post #2511 I think.)

TIA.

duwdu

Sorry,
Check your PM now.

I see what you are saying but by that reasoning I should just unhook all the speakers and just listen to the lfe noises. I want to see the interaction between the subs and the speakers. most likely i will set them all to small and use a 80 crossover.
Better yet, try it both ways. :)

Craig

I just placed an order for a pair of SubMersives for my 2537 cf sealed HT. I already have an AS-EQ1 I will be using with them.

Is anyone else using an AS-EQ1 on their SubMersives?

John

I really like your HT, nice job. You already have 6 subs in that room, are you really adding 2 Subermersives too?

I really like your HT, nice job. You already have 6 subs in that room, are you really adding 2 Subermersives too?

Thanks for the compliment. No I will just hook up the 2 SubMersives and see how that sounds to begin with.

John

Wow! This is the most 'blind' purchases I've seen on a thread b4... The Seaton poison is really making a move now :)

Well, I finally did it. I ordered the Black Oak Submersive today! I have never been this geeked about a purchase of any kind before. If it sounds half as good as forum members say, I will be a happy camper. I have been subless for a while and it is driving me crazy.

More to follow in 10 days or so.

exactly, you said it perfect :D If it sounds even half as good as everyone says, ill be happy. What got me most was the fact that most submersive owners are upgrading from nice subs, not htib subs, and they seem to have found what they were looking for. If anything, they all seem to agree that they would just add another one if needed in future. :D

Congrats everyone with new orders in for a SubMersive. Everyone that is still on the fence I recommend you jump in the club SubMersive asap as in like NOW! I have some inside information that the SubMersive price is going to be going up, like way up like as to near $4000. To be frank, the SubMersive could fetch $5.5K easy so even @ $4K its is still a bargain.

Get your orders in guys!! And again, congrats to those who got on the SubMersive bus today, welcome to bass as it was meant to be experienced.;)

BTW im just pullin your leg guys. :D:p

BTW im just pullin your leg guys. :D:p

Worked for me. I'm ordering two more. If two are good, four must be twice as good.

Four SubMersives in 3800 cf borders on nuts and suicidal.

If I can get the same FR out of four that I have with the two, it should sound pretty amazing. I was playing the Panda movie tonight (REALLY loud) and think I got the subs to quit for a second. So, with two more, that should not happen EVER again.

To be frank, the SubMersive could fetch $5.5K easy so even @ $4K its is still a bargain.


Based upon previous subs I have owned, he could charge LOTS more but if he does, he will lose LOTS of potential customers. While $2000 is not throw away change, it may be the best bang for the buck in audio (PUN partially intended).

Thanks Craig. I didn't know that's how the as-eq1 worked.
Please don't misunderstand... I'm not implying *anything* negative about the AS-EQ1. I'm only trying to explain that the observed final result is not something one can easily measure with any existing measuring devices.

By (virtually) all accounts the AS-EQ1 does exactly what it is supposed to do. In addition to providing excellent post EQ FR graphs, it is also said to provide excellent listening experiences.

I would imagine that the AS-EQ1 is probably the next best thing to actually having Mark Seaton come to your house and set up your system... and then keeping him on retainer to come back an re-do it whenever the humidity changes.

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

Craig

Please don't misunderstand... I'm not implying *anything* negative about the AS-EQ1. I'm only trying to explain that the observed final result is not something one can easily measure with any existing measuring devices.

By (virtually) all accounts the AS-EQ1 does exactly what it is supposed to do. In addition to providing excellent post EQ FR graphs, it is also said to provide excellent listening experiences.

I would imagine that the AS-EQ1 is probably the next best thing to actually having Mark Seaton come to your house and set up your system... and then keeping him on retainer to come back an re-do it whenever the humidity changes.

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

Craig

I understood that part. I just wasn't aware of the averaging that was used in the graphs we see. I thought it was a single position plot. Thanks for the additional explanation Craig. Always appreciated. Most likely I'll be paying for Mark's plane ticket and time to come up to Toronto to set my system up and teach me a few things in the process.

While he's here, I'll have him cloned so us Canadians can have our own Mark Seaton;) Ha haa haaaa!

Sorry,
Check your PM now.
I have now received it MikeDuke. Thanks a bunch.

duwdu

I understood that part. I just wasn't aware of the averaging that was used in the graphs we see. I thought it was a single position plot. Thanks for the additional explanation Craig. Always appreciated.
Indeed as good as the listening experience from an EQ with the AS-EQ1 could be, the fact remains that the "After" graph that is shown is NOT what you can listen to at any position since it does not exist in the physical or acoustically. To me, in the line that I have stated before, it (the "After" graph) is more like a psychological booster or abracadabra created in software to support the good results produced with the EQ1.

That abracadabra is not necessarily a bad thing though.

I currently use the Anti-Mode 8033 with very good results. I'm looking to jump on the EQ1 bandwagon during its next iteration, say, or when it - or something else as cost effective - comes equipped with balanced outputs. This is so I don't have to use adapters between it and my Seaton products for one. :)

duwdu

I got my submersive (in black oak) about 2 months ago, and it is one of the major things I have done to improve my home theater.
Everyone is knocked dead when I play the canon scene from "Master and Commander" and the little girl tapping on the tank in "Little Nemo."
Thanks Mark.. Big WOW
I got rid of my sunfire sub, listened to Thiel subs up to 5K and a REL at about 3K. No comparison. My front two speakers are Thiel 3.7's>

I currently use the Anti-Mode 8033 with very good results. I'm looking to jump on the EQ1 bandwagon during its next iteration, say, or when it - or something else as cost effective - comes equipped with balanced outputs. This is so I don't have to use adapters between it and my Seaton products for one. :)



balanced outputs? Can you explain what they are and what they do?

balanced outputs? Can you explain what they are and what they do?

You may have seen those XLR (three prong) connectors on the SubMersive, that is a balanced connection. Which simply means that impedances of the lines are matched.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balanced_audio

I'm hesitant on buying a Submersive cause I'm scared it's going to break things in the house :eek:

Ok, another bandwagon jumper … well at least I have heard them:p.

Dual Submersive1’s on order.:cool:
I wonder what would happen if there was an AVS power buy?
:eek::rolleyes::D

Mike

Please don't misunderstand... I'm not implying *anything* negative about the AS-EQ1. I'm only trying to explain that the observed final result is not something one can easily measure with any existing measuring devices.

By (virtually) all accounts the AS-EQ1 does exactly what it is supposed to do. In addition to providing excellent post EQ FR graphs, it is also said to provide excellent listening experiences.

I would imagine that the AS-EQ1 is probably the next best thing to actually having Mark Seaton come to your house and set up your system... and then keeping him on retainer to come back an re-do it whenever the humidity changes.

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

Craig

I do think the EQ1 graph can be misleading to the unwary, maybe even deliberately so. The ruler flat graphs produced have no doubt given many a user the comfy but false impression that they can forget all about the usual hassles that are required to get the best out of a sub, such as sub placement. It can give the impression that no matter where you place a sub you can just run EQ1 and all will be magically fixed and a flat FR produced. That's not so. Sub placement is still a very important factor to get the best performance from it, EQ1 or no EQ1.

I'm hesitant on buying a Submersive cause I'm scared it's going to break things in the house :eek:

It did knock the acoustic paneling off the wall!!

I'm hesitant on buying a Submersive cause I'm scared it's going to break things in the house

That is a very valid concern to have , people need to put their fragile or breakable valuables in storage or at another family members house.
Smart thinking Mike!

I wonder what would happen if there was an AVS power buy?
:eek::rolleyes::D

Mike

One thing is for sure, Mark would be forced to hire on a few extra guys.

Ok, another bandwagon jumper … well at least I have heard them:p.

Dual Submersive1’s on order.:cool:

Excellent! Congrats! You are in for a real treat when you get them!! :cool:

RMK,

So are you planning to have the Captivators, Submersives and SPUDS in the room at the same time?! Keeping all of them?

Ok, another bandwagon jumper … well at least I have heard them:p.

Dual Submersive1’s on order.:cool:

Congrats RMK. Your room will quite potent with these added into an already great system.

Ok, another bandwagon jumper … well at least I have heard them:p.

Dual Submersive1’s on order.:cool:

Welcome to the club! :D

Welcome!

Probably good that we are all getting in with our purchases now, who knows where Seaton Sound will be in 5 years. Hopefully giving the same great service/products that we get now.

I'm hesitant on buying a Submersive cause I'm scared it's going to break things in the house :eek:

No need to be afraid, it WILL break thigs in the house, but that is what makes it fun!

Probably good that we are all getting in with our purchases now, who knows where Seaton Sound will be in 5 years. Hopefully giving the same great service/products that we get now.

At the rate things are going, 5 years from now he will probably still be trying to catch up on the flood of orders from 2010!

No need to be afraid, it WILL break thigs in the house, but that is what makes it fun!

So I guess it's really $2k plus $500 for new dishes, pictures, windows, etc.

I am just dying to hear the Submersive with a full set of catalysts for LCR and sparks for the rears! Really looking forward to them arriving.

So I guess it's really $2k plus $500 for new dishes, pictures, windows, etc.

No , its more like ~$2K + $15,000-$30,000 to lift your house up and construct a new foundation.



:p;)

I am just dying to hear the Submersive with a full set of catalysts for LCR and sparks for the rears! Really looking forward to them arriving.

Ah man, I am so jealous!! I want to hear the Catalysts and Sparks , like big time!

Hey, if any Catalyst or Spark owners out there have found yourselves in a tight spot due to the economy please PM me asap, I will take those Catalysts and/or Sparks off your hands and get you some cash to help you out during these hard times. :p:p


Sorry to be off topic here guys but this is a Seaton thread so it is related at least. Anyhow does anybody in the pacific northwest have some Catalysts or Sparks so I can hear some?

RMK,

So are you planning to have the Captivators, Submersives and SPUDS in the room at the same time?! Keeping all of them?

No, the Captivator is undergoing a design/driver change and will not be ready for a while. As an alternative, I was considering IB and the Submersive but decided to go for the Submersive's as I had heard them in Fugueness's theater and was very impressed. The TH-SPUDS are staying. :cool:

Ah man, I am so jealous!! I want to hear the Catalysts and Sparks , like big time!

Hey, if any Catalyst or Spark owners out there have found yourselves in a tight spot due to the economy please PM me asap, I will take those Catalysts and/or Sparks off your hands and get you some cash to help you out during these hard times. :p:p
Considering that your stated intention is to help out fellow Seaton-products enthusiasts who may currently be in financial need, you should actually be paying them more than what Mr. Seaton would charge new, especially since you won't have to wait on Mr. Seaton's long queue... :rolleyes::cool::p;):D

(Sorry, couldn't resist.)

duwdu

I have dual SubMersives on order for my 2537 cf sealed HT. I am currently using a pair of Velodyne DD-18's and a pair of HGS-18's. I am using an SVS AS-EQ1. The Velodynes don't offer much below 15 Hz.

How should the SubMersives compare to my current setup?

John

I have dual SubMersives on order for my 2537 cf sealed HT. I am currently using a pair of Velodyne DD-18's and a pair of HGS-18's. I am using an SVS AS-EQ1. The Velodynes don't offer much below 15 Hz.

How should the SubMersives compare to my current setup?

John

I've just sold my pair of DD-18's and are trying to place an order for 2 submersives. I'm hoping the upgrade is worth it (I know it will), although believe it or not its costing me very little to nothing to upgrade.

I've just sold my pair of DD-18's and are trying to place an order for 2 submersives. I'm hoping the upgrade is worth it (I know it will), although believe it or not its costing me very little to nothing to upgrade.

Size wise, how would they compare?

Size wise, how would they compare?

Per Velodyne's posted specs (http://www.velodyne.com/products/specs/DigitalDrive.html): 23" x 21.25" x 19.25" (HxWxD) (inc. feet)

SubMersive: 25.5" x 24.25" x 17.5" (HxWxD including feet & grills).

Per Velodyne's posted specs (http://www.velodyne.com/products/specs/DigitalDrive.html): 23" x 21.25" x 19.25" (HxWxD) (inc. feet)

SubMersive: 25.5" x 24.25" x 17.5" (HxWxD including feet & grills).

Mark,

Would you mind giving me your opinion on how my dual SubMersives will compare to my four Velodynes?

I asked a few weeks back before I placed an order and just again three posts back.

Thanks,
John

We just watched Knowing at -3, (my wife asked me to turn it down a little when it was at 0).

The plane crash scene...

The runaway subway car scene...

A half-dozen other scenes...

O... M... F'n... G!

I love these Submersives!

:):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):)

Craig

We just watched Knowing at -3, (my wife asked me to turn it down a little when it was at 0).

The plane crash scene...

The runaway subway car scene...

A half-dozen other scenes...

O... M... F'n... G!

I love these Submersives!

:):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):)

Craig

yeah yeah yeah. whatever :rolleyes:


:D

Hey, if any Catalyst or Spark owners out there have found yourselves in a tight spot due to the economy please PM me asap, I will take those Catalysts and/or Sparks off your hands and get you some cash to help you out during these hard times. :p:p


Good luck! Come to think of it, I haven't seen any second-hand Seaton products for sale...
and for good reason. ;)

Good luck! Come to think of it, I haven't seen any second-hand Seaton products for sale...
and for good reason. ;)
I spoke about two that I had purchased in post @2248 on page 75.

Carl

I spoke about two that I had purchased in post @2248 on page 75.

Carl

Good luck! Come to think of it, I haven't seen any second-hand Seaton products for sale...
and for good reason. ;)

Yes, but those were under very extenuating circumstances not by his choice did he sell those

not even the certifiably insane would sell their submersive:eek:

Yes, but those were under very extenuating circumstances not by his choice did he sell those

not even the certifiably insane would sell their submersive:eek:

...what about someone wanting to upgrade to the terraformers?

...what about someone wanting to upgrade to the terraform ?

The Terraform would not be much of an upgrade for most of us.

But , you mentioning the Terraform makes me wonder how a Terraform and a SubMersive would work together in a room since the Terraform's strength is from 10-30hz, and the SubMersive above that.

The Terraform would not be much of an upgrade for most of us.

But , you mentioning the Terraform makes me wonder how a Terraform and a SubMersive would work together in a room since the Terraform's strength is from 10-30hz, and the SubMersive above that.

Stay tuned, Fugueness is about to add a pair of TerraformXL's to a pair of Submersive's. Hopefully, this will quench his thirst for bass.:eek:;) :cool:

Stay tuned, Fugueness is about to add a pair of TerraformXL's to a pair of Submersive's. Hopefully, this will quench his thirst for bass.:eek:;) :cool:

something doesn't seem right to me about that combo

the submersive can go just as low, even lower with EQ

wouldn't multiple sumbersives make more sense ?

bosso has his system flat to 3hz with sealed subs alone

something doesn't seem right to me about that combo

the submersive can go just as low, even lower with EQ

wouldn't multiple sumbersives make more sense ?

bosso has his system flat to 3hz with sealed subs alone

I believe the Terraforms are tuned to 12hz. While the submersives could conceivable go lower, they are going to do so at way less output. Would you rather have, say, 12hz at 100db or 8hz at 80db?

I believe the Terraforms are tuned to 12hz. While the submersives could conceivable go lower, they are going to do so at way less output. Would you rather have, say, 12hz at 100db or 8hz at 80db?

that's why i said "multiple" submersives

personally, i'd rather keep everything sealed and go lower than 12hz at the same time

something doesn't seem right to me about that combo

the submersive can go just as low, even lower with EQ

wouldn't multiple sumbersives make more sense ?

bosso has his system flat to 3hz with sealed subs alone

Mark Seaton said......
While those 2 Terraforms are similar to the single SubMersive in the upper octave or so, the pair are lower in distortion and have the power of 3-4 SubMersives in the 10-16Hz range with the same total power.

that's why i said "multiple" submersives

personally, i'd rather keep everything sealed and go lower than 12hz at the same time
And using the Submersives as MBM's seems like such a waste... almost as bad as setting full range towers to "Small"!

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

that's why i said "multiple" submersives

personally, i'd rather keep everything sealed and go lower than 12hz at the same time
+3. :d

Mark Seaton said......

i fully understand all that. i'm just saying if it were my dime "and it's not" but we are talking about $7000 for the dual Terraform XL's plus $4000 for the dual submersives

so that puts us at $11,000

that's already a sick amount of money for the LFE channel

you might as well step up to 6 or 8 submersives and EQ your LFE channel flat to 3hz

then you don't have to mess around with trying to blend subs

there's also a submersive XL that's coming out with dual 18s :cool:

i don't know. i'm sure it will sound awesome but i'm just saying if it were me, i'd go the multiple submersive route. i mean once you're up in the $11,000 range, you might as well go all out and shoot for 3hz and keep it all sealed

i'm also a sealed fanboy :p

now maybe if the Terraform XL was tuned somewhere around 3-5hz. that would make more sense to me if you wanted to use the Terraform XL's to handle 3-20hz and let the sumbersives handle 20hz on up

but again, i personally would still go multiple submersives if it were my cash but it's not so it doesn't matter :)

That quote I posted from Mark was about the Terraform not the Terraform XL. The XL is another animal altogether.

That quote I posted from Mark was about the Terraform not the Terraform XL. The XL is another animal altogether.

ok but it's the same principal. they are both tuned to 12hz

And using the Submersives as MBM's seems like such a waste... almost as bad as setting full range towers to "Small"!

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee42/sub-woofer/giggle.gif

Four Submersives are less expensive with much better flexibility for room placement (hence why I have two more Submersives on order).

I've had physically large subs before and while they sounded awesome, placement (to optimize FR) was VERY restricted. Although with some of the current EQ products, some of that FR optimization could be dealt with.

At this point you're not going to get a "best" answer out of me regarding Terraform XLs and multiple SubMersives. This is a case of different options and approaches with differing strengths. If the combo option was used I would probably set the SubMersive's outdoor response to start it's 2nd order roll off in the 28-35Hz range rather than ~19Hz providing rather ridiculous headroom with the placement flexibility of the SubMersive's size vs. the Terraform XL. What really sets apart the Terraform design is the subjectively clean output (low audible distortion) below 20-25Hz at high levels.

Of course I prefer to push the low corner as low as practical, but 5-8Hz extension is not what makes the SubMersive sound so impressive, although it is related to some audible factors. When you start getting down near 10Hz, all bets are off simply in knowing if your equipment will not roll off the signal below there anyway. I have seen plenty of movie sountrack content I'd like to reproduced down in the 10-14Hz range, and of course there is always Black Hawk Down taunting us with that 7-9Hz energy, but 10-11Hz really does get you well into the range of significantly diminishing returns. Of course we'll see how long before others follow suit offering large vented subs natively tuned in the 8-13Hz range (my money is on 3-6 months :rolleyes: ).

Stay tuned, Fugueness is about to add a pair of TerraformXL's to a pair of Submersive's. Hopefully, this will quench his thirst for bass.:eek:;) :cool:

Don't forget me, either. :D

Of course we'll see how long before others follow suit offering large vented subs natively tuned in the 8-13Hz range (my money is on 3-6 months :rolleyes: ).

And as we both know , tuning a vented enclosure to in the 8-13hz range is a difficult task. A very difficult task in most scenarios.

Stay tuned, Fugueness is about to add a pair of TerraformXL's to a pair of Submersive's. Hopefully, this will quench his thirst for bass.:eek:;) :cool:
I look forward to hearing those results.

Walked out this morning, dont believe what I saw
Hundred billion bottles washed up on the shore
Seems Im not alone at being alone
Hundred billion castaways, looking for a home
Ill send an s.o.s. to the world
Ill send an s.o.s. to the world
I hope that someone gets my
I hope that someone gets my
Message in a bottle
Sending out at an s.o.s.
Sending out at an s.o.s.
Message in a bottle, yeah
Message in a bottle
Sending out at an s.o.s.!!!


Looking for a fun time, I highly recommend The Police: Certifiable on blu-ray.
Some of you young kids may not enjoy it but if your closer to my age (grew up in the 80s) you should have a good time. :cool:

Walked out this morning, dont believe what I saw
Hundred billion bottles washed up on the shore
Seems Im not alone at being alone
Hundred billion castaways, looking for a home
Ill send an s.o.s. to the world
Ill send an s.o.s. to the world
I hope that someone gets my
I hope that someone gets my
Message in a bottle
Sending out at an s.o.s.
Sending out at an s.o.s.
Message in a bottle, yeah
Message in a bottle
Sending out at an s.o.s.!!!


Looking for a fun time, I highly recommend The Police: Certifiable on blu-ray.
Some of you young kids may not enjoy it but if your closer to my age (grew up in the 80s) you should have a good time. :cool:

The Police - Every Breath You Take DTS 5.1 CD is one of my favorites

We just watched Knowing at -3, (my wife asked me to turn it down a little when it was at 0).

The plane crash scene...

The runaway subway car scene...

A half-dozen other scenes...

O... M... F'n... G!

I love these Submersives!

:):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):)

Craig

I find it extremely funny that your wife asked you to turn it down and all you were willing to budge was -3 MV haha.

Some people poop on that movie. I was too based on the fact that it has Nick Cage in a leading roll. But the centerpeice scenes are some of the best ones I have seen in film. Really well done.

Revisiting the mention of multiple subs and the comments about what should come from mains, subs, etc., I thought it important to remind that the concepts and possible approaches I had proposed are not from lacking performance in any one device. A single Terraform XL or a single SubMersive can easily cover the frequency range required. The point everyone seems so resistant to acknowledge is the efficiency by which we get the subwoofer's output to the listening positions.

This is the proverbial rubber hitting the road. You need both capability and effective placement, as one without the other leaves room for further improvement. As others have suggested already, multiple SubMersives are a great approach, and one that was intended when I first designed the SubMersive. The Terraform is a bigger hammer in a much larger package that offers its own benefits, especially way down deep. In most rooms (no not all), it is easy to find a single location to efficiency deliver response below ~30Hz (25-40Hz depending on dimensions and openings). The above this range is where location is key, and short of some very advanced modeling and precision built trapping, is best dealt with by having sources in more efficient locations to deliver the entire frequency range. In this case, when I say more efficient, this is in context of delivering the full low frequency bandwidth without holes, not just what gives the largest peak SPL from a pink noise source. That's an important distinction, as a big peak and a few deep dips might measure louder with a pink noise test than a smoother response. Ask Audioguy about the subjective differences. ;)

We just watched Knowing at -3, (my wife asked me to turn it down a little when it was at 0).

The plane crash scene...

The runaway subway car scene...

A half-dozen other scenes...

O... M... F'n... G!

I love these Submersives!

:):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):)

Craig


Funny we watched that last night at like -12 and its still insane.... That whole movie has great bass, great surround effects and great dynamics... Its truly reference quality.....

EDIT: I am not a big nicolas cage fan but it was a good movie...

Sean

Four Submersives are less expensive with much better flexibility for room placement (hence why I have two more Submersives on order).

I've had physically large subs before and while they sounded awesome, placement (to optimize FR) was VERY restricted. Although with some of the current EQ products, some of that FR optimization could be dealt with.

Sweet! Flat to 4hz and f^&**^& loud!!

Sean

We just watched Knowing at -3, (my wife asked me to turn it down a little when it was at 0).

The plane crash scene...

The runaway subway car scene...

A half-dozen other scenes...

O... M... F'n... G!

I love these Submersives!

:):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):)

Craig

We also watched Knowing BluRay last night......... at more like -10.
The spaceship scene and the sun flash scene, among others, had my chair rocking and rolling? Not to mention my insides. Very cool stuff!
And this is with only one SubMersive.
The SubMersive looks to be the new $2k subwoofer king... long live the king:)

there's also a submersive XL that's coming out with dual 18s :cool:


When is that happening? :eek: Should I wait for the SubMersive XL...
Revisiting the mention of multiple subs and the comments about what should come from mains, subs, etc., I thought it important to remind that the concepts and possible approaches I had proposed are not from lacking performance in any one device. A single Terraform XL or a single SubMersive can easily cover the frequency range required. The point everyone seems so resistant to acknowledge is the efficiency by which we get the subwoofer's output to the listening positions.

This is the proverbial rubber hitting the road. You need both capability and effective placement, as one without the other leaves room for further improvement. As others have suggested already, multiple SubMersives are a great approach, and one that was intended when I first designed the SubMersive. The Terraform is a bigger hammer in a much larger package that offers its own benefits, especially way down deep. In most rooms (no not all), it is easy to find a single location to efficiency deliver response below ~30Hz (25-40Hz depending on dimensions and openings). The above this range is where location is key, and short of some very advanced modeling and precision built trapping, is best dealt with by having sources in more efficient locations to deliver the entire frequency range. In this case, when I say more efficient, this is in context of delivering the full low frequency bandwidth without holes, not just what gives the largest peak SPL from a pink noise source. That's an important distinction, as a big peak and a few deep dips might measure louder with a pink noise test than a smoother response. Ask Audioguy about the subjective differences. ;)

Mark I am going to need plenty of help setting up my system, especially on bass traps and speaker placment. But , I do understand what you are saying for sure.:)

When will the Submersive XL be available for purchase?

When will the Submersive XL be available for purchase?

After he gets another project he is working on done:rolleyes:

Hmm, where did that one thread go.:confused:

I think Mark has so many new orders at the moment R&D can't take up too much time.

Dave is not wrong, and there are still too many things not finalized with that design to bother with too many details. To be clear, this product will be priced $3495-3995 depending on some still pending details, so this is not a replacement, but rather a next step from the SubMersive. It is still way too early with too many variables to even make an educated guess as to when it might be available.

I think Mark has so many new orders at the moment R&D can't take up too much time.

He's a hard man to track down that's for sure.

Im making a dual 18" FI Q18 opposite sealed running bridged at 4000 watts 4 ohms from a behringer Europower 4000 amp in a 30" deep by 36" high by 22" enclosure. I wonder how this would compare to an XL. I should be seeing 112db at 10hz and 136db at 40hz and over.

I really wanted a submersive by couldn't stretch to the extra funds so I decided to diy one.
Should cost me £1300 all in from start to finish and veneered too.

cheers graham

A real big up to Mark!

Im making a dual 18" FI Q18 opposite sealed running bridged at 4000 watts 4 ohms from a behringer Europower 4000 amp in a 30" deep by 36" high by 22" enclosure. I wonder how this would compare to an XL. I should be seeing 112db at 10hz and 136db at 40hz and over.

I really wanted a submersive by couldn't stretch to the extra funds so I decided to diy one.
Should cost me £1300 all in from start to finish and veneered too.

cheers graham

A real big up to Mark!
Cool! Be sure to let all the guys in the DIY forum know how it turns out!

Craig

The dimensions of the room my dual SubMersives will be installed in is
21' 7" L x 13' 10" W x 8' 6" T (sealed) 2537 cf

Will I see room gain with these dimensions?

John

All rooms have some gain. Your room is sealed. You should have lots of gain. The Submersives should kick a$$ in there.

Is SeatonSound@comcast.net the correct address for product questions? I sent an email a week ago but haven't heard anything back yet. Thanks

Is SeatonSound@comcast.net the correct address for product questions? I sent an email a week ago but haven't heard anything back yet. Thanks

yes, that is the correct e-mail address. mark was out a few days for cedia a week or so ago and is still catching up on e-mails. sometimes it takes a few days but i have always gotten a response from him.

i would send him the e-mail again or check his forum to see if your question has already been answered
http://www.seaton-sound-forum.com/

Craig,

Will do mate. The reason I decided to do a dual opposite sealed is because of the submersive. It will be out of 25mm mdf and weigh about 315lbs including the drivers.

Will start a thread in the diy section. Be sure to look out for one that says GPERKINS diy sub.

cheers graham

Hey guys!!! Been away for too long.


Thinking about more low end in my room...

Mark, you've been over a few times. Which subs and how many would you recommend if I continue to use my current B-DEAPS for bass down to 20 Hz?

Hope all is well!

Hey guys!!! Been away for too long.


Thinking about more low end in my room...

Mark, you've been over a few times. Which subs and how many would you recommend if I continue to use my current B-DEAPS for bass down to 20 Hz?

Hope all is well!

:eek::eek::eek:

The dimensions of the room my dual SubMersives will be installed in is
21' 7" L x 13' 10" W x 8' 6" T (sealed) 2537 cf

Will I see room gain with these dimensions?

John

I agree with Mojo. In that size room, room gain should not be that much of an issue.

There are a ton of treatments out there to choose from.
You have Tube Traps http://www.tubetrap.com/
You have GIK http://www.gikacoustics.com/
You have Real Traps http://www.realtraps.com/
These Guys are the ones that make "The SubDude"
Aurlaex http://www.auralex.com/
Plus you have acoustic science.
http://www.acousticsciences.com/
Most of those sites have info on them that can teach you about room acoustics. The problem is rooms are not ideal. You have sound collecting in the corners. You have sound just bouncing off of every wall. What treatments try and do is minimize the effect on the room. Some absorb certian frequinces and some reflect others. With the people listed above, you best bet is to contact them directly. When you do, you will be able to discuss your room, and needs so they can better help you. Now, I will be honest, I did not go with any of the above. I did my own research and I found another product that deals specifically with bass issues. I talked to a number of people whom I respect and I read a number of reviews. Based on the feedback I went with them. But, I would rather not post it here as some people may feel that it is impossible for them to do what they do. But I have seen a spectral graph that convinced me. If you are interested in what they are, let me know and I will P.M you.
P.S, I guess I type slow. Craig put some good links uo there.

Can you PM me about this?

Thanks

Mike

Can you PM me about this?

Thanks

Mike

Check your PM.

I'd like a PM as well.

I'd like a PM as well.

Check you PM.

Is SeatonSound@comcast.net the correct address for product questions? I sent an email a week ago but haven't heard anything back yet. Thanks

Hi Todd,

I'm starting to get caught back up after being a bit short handed the past 2 weeks. You should now have a response to your inquiry. :)

id like one as well if your just sending em out ;) need to get some treatments for my room as well

I think Mark has so many new orders at the moment R&D can't take up too much time.

Is Mark still taking new orders? I sent him a PM about a month and half ago but still no response yet:(.

Is Mark still taking new orders? I sent him a PM about a month and half ago but still no response yet:(.

yes, he is still taking new orders.
check his website for delivery times www.seaton-sound-forum.com

also usually the best way to reach him is to send an e-mail seatonsound@comcast.net

yes, he is still taking new orders.
check his website for delivery times www.seaton-sound-forum.com

also usually the best way to reach him is to send an e-mail seatonsound@comcast.net

Great, thx man, I'll do that.

Are there specs for the Terraform Xls? Dimensions?

Are there specs for the Terraform Xls? Dimensions?

Terraform XL
* High Output, Ultra Low Frequency specialty subwoofer design
* Two(2) 15" drivers (internally mounted)
* Two(2) 18" passive radiators (HF chamber)
* large enclosure with slot vent tuned to ~12Hz
* DSP Controlled (manufacturer only) ICEpower amplifier 2000W peak
power (1200W sustained)
* Tentative dimensions: 52" x 22.5" x 28"
* Weight: Likely to approach 200 lbs

Thanks,

Hmm... I would imagine Mark would recommend two of these beasts... I have his number. Might be time to call... But how I am going to get these behind my screen is the question??

Last year, Mark stopped by my house and we lugged a subwoofer around the room to see where the best response came from. Of course, it came from the front of the room where i have a huge screen and minimal room behind it. I suppose where there is a will, there is a way..

I'd like a PM as well.

+1

Thank you!

After listening to another sealed sub (nowhere in the same league as the Submersive) I can imagine how much of an improvement one would get going from an MFW-15 to the Submersive in terms of quality of bass.

This is completely unrelated to the topic, but I demoed a Jamo D6 THX Ultra sub (sealed, servo-controlled), not particularly well known in these circles, but once I calibrated the unit, the bass was much tighter and 'faster' (yes, technical misnomer but still).

The Jamo sub isn't nearly as powerful (I mean, it uses a 15 inch cone with 10mm of travel in a smallish sealed box. If the Jamo sub was a major step up from the MFW-15, I can imagine that the Submersive would be a clear improvement over that. But it's not so much the fact that I've chosen a different sub but rather the type of subwoofer.

Sealed most definitely trumps ported in terms of articulation and responsiveness. I just wish I could the Submersive, since shipping the unit will kill me.

Regards,

Hey guys!!! Been away for too long.


Thinking about more low end in my room...

Mark, you've been over a few times. Which subs and how many would you recommend if I continue to use my current B-DEAPS for bass down to 20 Hz?

Hope all is well!

Thanks,

Hmm... I would imagine Mark would recommend two of these beasts... I have his number. Might be time to call... But how I am going to get these behind my screen is the question??

Last year, Mark stopped by my house and we lugged a subwoofer around the room to see where the best response came from. Of course, it came from the front of the room where i have a huge screen and minimal room behind it. I suppose where there is a will, there is a way..

Hi Jeff,

Nice to have you swing by the thread. Indeed, the Terraform XL would be the way to go. The dimensions posted are for one of 2-3 form factors I will be offering, as these monsters are build to order for now. This is basically an evolution of what we had discussed as a possible custom build a couple years back around the time we brought a SubMersive over and found your back right corner to be pretty useless for this type of addition.

This would certainly be an ideal addition on to the bDeap subs you have which are so powerful above 30-40Hz. These would add both headroom and be much cleaner. Have you made it over to Itai's for a quick listen yet? Excuses are weak as I know it's only a few miles away. :p The Terraform XL is similar to the pair of Itai's prototypes packed in a slightly smaller package (than the pair) and with more sophisticated/newer amps and drivers; i.e. more of the good stuff. ;)

For those wondering why I'm not recommending SubMersives, Jeff's room is rather sizable, and in fact the work and results I heard after I installed the bDeaps in Jeff's system were one of a handful of the major inspirations for the development of the SubMersive. SubMersives would have a little more deep bass, but his room and the capability of the rest of his system makes it primed for a 2 way subwoofer setup with the bDeaps and Terraform XLs.

what do you guys make of this ?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=17231633#post17231633

Making noise, and trying to generate hype. As long as they follow their current model SVS will not compete with Seaton Sound on the high end, they will have broad appeal, and i'm all for them improving - Mark is doing the same.

For those wondering why I'm not recommending SubMersives, Jeff's room is rather sizable, and in fact the work and results I heard after I installed the bDeaps in Jeff's system were one of a handful of the major inspirations for the development of the SubMersive. SubMersives would have a little more deep bass, but his room and the capability of the rest of his system makes it primed for a 2 way subwoofer setup with the bDeaps and Terraform XLs.

Two Bdeaps and two Terrafom XL's have got to have some serious hair standing capabilities. I mean wow. If setup properly ;), it should make quite the system. Now, I have never heard Jeff's system. I am pretty sure he is using those runts as his front speakers? I am only asking, but would that sub system start to over power the capabilities of his fronts?

Two Bdeaps and two Terrafom XL's have got to have some serious hair standing capabilities. I mean wow. If setup properly ;), it should make quite the system. Now, I have never heard Jeff's system. I am pretty sure he is using those runts as his front speakers? I am only asking, but would that sub system start to over power the capabilities of his fronts?

Mark is the expert, but the Runts can go very, very loud and not go into driver compression. They have 2 8" drivers and a horn/compression driver. I could replace them but I have a new, custom baffle wall that fits them perfectly, so I'd rather not (at this point)..

Mark,

I'll call you in the next few days. Thanks.

Jeff

Making noise, and trying to generate hype. As long as they follow their current model SVS will not compete with Seaton Sound on the high end, they will have broad appeal, and i'm all for them improving - Mark is doing the same.


Mark probably doesn't do it but I wouldn't doubt if most the other sub manufacturers do buy competitor's subs and take them apart to see what makes them tick.

I even have my suspisions that James may have been involved in reverse engineering given how easily he took that submersive apart. :)

Personally, I think the next leap in subwoofer design will be multiple drivers that handle specific frequency ranges.

Personally, I think the next leap in subwoofer design will be multiple drivers that handle specific frequency ranges.

Personally, I think that would be a recipe for disaster.

Regards,

Mark probably doesn't do it but I wouldn't doubt if most the other sub manufacturers do buy competitor's subs and take them apart to see what makes them tick.

I don't generally have time to much of this, and for the most part it's not too hard to reasonably estimate what products will generally do or what their max potential is with some knowledge of what is practical to build. Of course every so often there are some surprises.


I even have my suspisions that James may have been involved in reverse engineering given how easily he took that submersive apart. :)

I'm 99.99% sure James wasn't reverse engineering for anyone else. ;) He didn't believe my diagnosis that there was a grounding/wiring problem so decided to open things up. Had he asked me about opening the subwoofer up before doing so, he wouldn't have had to remove the drivers when all he wanted to see was the amp. With a little input we got him back together just fine, and later sorted out the problem wall outlet.

Personally, I think the next leap in subwoofer design will be multiple drivers that handle specific frequency ranges.

I've posted here and in the DIY forum about such approaches and have implemented a few 2-way subwoofers solutions. It's a solid approach so long as you are placing the devices in different locations and you still have enough room for the VLF device which needs to be of larger physical size to make it worth your while. I'd say there's not a clear answer as to what approach is best, as there are also benefits to having multiple wide band devices around the room with enough total power to deliver impressive low frequencies.

I was kidding about James. Note the smiley face.

He seems to be a very entheusiastic supporter that just can't get enough of the submersive and had to see how it was built.

Mark is the expert, but the Runts can go very, very loud and not go into driver compression. They have 2 8" drivers and a horn/compression driver. I could replace them but I have a new, custom baffle wall that fits them perfectly, so I'd rather not (at this point)..

Mark,

I'll call you in the next few days. Thanks.

Jeff

OK. That sounds good to me. I really don't know much about them. That is why I was wondering. I have seen them online but that's it. Again, that would be a stellar system I am sure.

Mark probably doesn't do it but I wouldn't doubt if most the other sub manufacturers do buy competitor's subs and take them apart to see what makes them tick.

I even have my suspisions that James may have been involved in reverse engineering given how easily he took that submersive apart. :)

Personally, I think the next leap in subwoofer design will be multiple drivers that handle specific frequency ranges.

Can't comment on the audio business but we do it all the time....

we test competitive boxes
we take em apart to see whats parts are used and estimate the BOM cost.....

The hard part is getting em.... you can't just go buy the multimillion dollar boxes at best buy and your competitor wont sell them to your directly...

Sean

Hi Jeff,

Nice to have you swing by the thread. Indeed, the Terraform XL would be the way to go. The dimensions posted are for one of 2-3 form factors I will be offering, as these monsters are build to order for now. This is basically an evolution of what we had discussed as a possible custom build a couple years back around the time we brought a SubMersive over and found your back right corner to be pretty useless for this type of addition.

This would certainly be an ideal addition on to the bDeap subs you have which are so powerful above 30-40Hz. These would add both headroom and be much cleaner. Have you made it over to Itai's for a quick listen yet? Excuses are weak as I know it's only a few miles away. :p The Terraform XL is similar to the pair of Itai's prototypes packed in a slightly smaller package (than the pair) and with more sophisticated/newer amps and drivers; i.e. more of the good stuff. ;)

For those wondering why I'm not recommending SubMersives, Jeff's room is rather sizable, and in fact the work and results I heard after I installed the bDeaps in Jeff's system were one of a handful of the major inspirations for the development of the SubMersive. SubMersives would have a little more deep bass, but his room and the capability of the rest of his system makes it primed for a 2 way subwoofer setup with the bDeaps and Terraform XLs.

Who is this "the Bland" guy and does he really have a home theater? or is it just a computer desk with a 19" monitor and some computer speakers:D

Mark Seaton,

I've posted a few times over at Seaton Sound and sent PM's (I got an answer to one of them indicating you were obtaining a shipping quote to Australia).

I have a few Aussies clamouring for shipping quotes and rather than all 5 of them asking you I've been nominted to be their 'speaker' (Excuse the pun).

I've also left a message on your answering machine (Possibly your first call from Australia!). Anyway - there's huge interest in your products since I highlighted them in an Aussie HT forum so would very much appreciate said shipping quote for a Submersive (By itself) and 3 catalysts (By themselves) to Australia. I understand you're very busy but anything to placate these blokes because I can tell you the natives are getting restless! Also for some reason Australian E-mails are bouncing back so PM/Forum posts are our only alternative at the moment.

Please PM me @ Seaton Sound (BladeRnR) ASAP.

Sorry to everyone else here discussing product specifics.

Blade

P.S I anticipate ordering my own Submersive at the end of October as the fathom f113 has been sold :)

Who is this "the Bland" guy and does he really have a home theater? or is it just a computer desk with a 19" monitor and some computer speakers:D

I know... I know.. I am way overdue...:D

got my tracking number for my black oak submersive from Mark, we are right on schedule, and expected delivery is next tuesday/wednesday. Cant freaking wait!!!!! :D:D:D

got my tracking number for my black oak submersive from Mark, we are right on schedule, and expected delivery is next tuesday/wednesday. Cant freaking wait!!!!! :D:D:D

That Black Oak looks great. Can't wait to hear your thoughts. Are you coming from another sub or is this your first one.

I'm sure the Black Oak is beautiful, but I really do like the basic, 'industrial grade' finish the best (at least for a HT where one wants the speakers to basically disappear). It's great to have the choice.

got my tracking number for my black oak submersive from Mark, we are right on schedule, and expected delivery is next tuesday/wednesday. Cant freaking wait!!!!! :D:D:D

Mine should be shipping today too, another black oak but winging it's way to England! Please please please Fed Ex, pick it up and keep it safe!!

No news is good news but that tracking number would keep my blood pressure down! :)

I'm sure the Black Oak is beautiful, but I really do like the basic, 'industrial grade' finish the best (at least for a HT where one wants the speakers to basically disappear). It's great to have the choice.
That is what I have, the basic black. I happen to like it. Mine is open in the corner but that's OK. It still looks very nice to me. Someone even thought it was a table.

Put me down for three black oak on order.:D

Has anyone sold a Submersive yet??

--JK

One guy needed the money so I think he sold 2 of them. Otherwise I've never seen anyone switching from a Submersive to something else.

One guy needed the money so I think he sold 2 of them. Otherwise I've never seen anyone switching from a Submersive to something else.
Yes and I own them (Along with three Catalysts) all in a temporary HT of 2100cf until I rebuild my real HT.
Carl

That Black Oak looks great. Can't wait to hear your thoughts. Are you coming from another sub or is this your first one.

i have a pc13 ultra, pb12plus/2, pb12-nsd, two mfws in other rooms. I am really looking forward to this baby. Hopefully this will be the ONE!!!

That is what I have, the basic black. I happen to like it. Mine is open in the corner but that's OK. It still looks very nice to me. Someone even thought it was a table.

yeah i am totally cool with the basic black too. But I figured for 100 bucks extra, why not :D

got my tracking number for my black oak submersive from Mark, we are right on schedule, and expected delivery is next tuesday/wednesday. Cant freaking wait!!!!! :D:D:D

My dual black oaks are going out today. I should have them next week as well.

John

SubMersives are flying out the door! Good job Mark.

I remember posting about the HSU 1220 TN about 3 years ago. I was discussing the fact that the $450 (without amp) 1220 TN reached down to 12.5 Hz at 101 db.

One response was from thebland. He posted the FR of his bDeaps. Flat to below 10 Hz. I didn't want to get into an argument with theBland, but I was thinking that the level he showed flat response to below 10 hz was only about 78 db (IIRC).

Now it seems his subs need help below 20 Hz.

That is why I always commment when someone posts a FR graph flat down to 7-8 Hz. Those graphs are almost always taken at 75-78 db.

When someone posts such a graph, I always ask them to post the FR at 105, 110, and 115 db instead of 78 db.

One of the few people who can do real justice to sub 20 Hz response at 110 db and more is mkTheater. Just remember he is using 8 18 inch drivers and a couple thousand watts.

Please do us all a favor and do not post your response below ~12 Hz unless you can achieve between 105-115 db at those frequencies.

I remember posting about the HSU 1220 TN about 3 years ago. I was discussing the fact that the $450 (without amp) 1220 TN reached down to 12.5 Hz at 101 db.

One response was from thebland. He posted the FR of his bDeaps. Flat to below 10 Hz. I didn't want to get into an argument with theBland, but I was thinking that the level he showed flat response to below 10 hz was only about 78 db (IIRC).

Now it seems his subs need help below 20 Hz.

That is why I always commment when someone posts a FR graph flat down to 7-8 Hz. Those graphs are almost always taken at 75-78 db.

When someone posts such a graph, I always ask them to post the FR at 105, 110, and 115 db instead of 78 db.

One of the few people who can do real justice to sub 20 Hz response at 110 db and more is mkTheater. Just remember he is using 8 18 inch drivers and a couple thousand watts.

Please do us all a favor and do not post your response below ~12 Hz unless you can achieve between 105-115 db at those frequencies.

God forbid someone were to waste your time.:rolleyes:

God forbid someone were to waste your time.:rolleyes:

http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee42/sub-woofer/giggle.gif

I remember posting about the HSU 1220 TN about 3 years ago. I was discussing the fact that the $450 (without amp) 1220 TN reached down to 12.5 Hz at 101 db.

One response was from thebland. He posted the FR of his bDeaps. Flat to below 10 Hz. I didn't want to get into an argument with theBland, but I was thinking that the level he showed flat response to below 10 hz was only about 78 db (IIRC).

Now it seems his subs need help below 20 Hz.

That is why I always commment when someone posts a FR graph flat down to 7-8 Hz. Those graphs are almost always taken at 75-78 db.

When someone posts such a graph, I always ask them to post the FR at 105, 110, and 115 db instead of 78 db.

One of the few people who can do real justice to sub 20 Hz response at 110 db and more is mkTheater. Just remember he is using 8 18 inch drivers and a couple thousand watts.

Please do us all a favor and do not post your response below ~12 Hz unless you can achieve between 105-115 db at those frequencies.

Most every system I've measured showing this sort of extended response I have also swept at higher levels with the amplifier starting to limit with the output ranging from 95-115dB at the listening position between 10Hz and 20Hz. Some I didn't bother measuring beyond 110dB. Double the subs, and at these frequencies you can pretty well expect 6dB of additional output with the subs anywhere in the room in all but a few unique cases where location will matter.

Jeff Permanian and I installed thebland's bDeaps probably 7 years ago now. By most standards, he has incredible bass in his room. thebland likes to go after a bit more, and the Terraform XLs would be a tremendous improvement in output down low, where his bDeaps were used rather creatively to get as low as they do. Above 30Hz they each have easily 10dB more capability (with the amps he uses) than anything common to the home market. This effort would let the bDeaps loaf along while adding very clean and significant headroom over what the bDeaps currently provide.

Given roughly a 2400 cubic ft. room, is one Submersive enough for those high octane action movies to attain levels around 110dB at 10ft. away (corner loaded), down too around the 10-15Hz area?

This question is for you Submersive owners out there. How long is the power cord that comes with the Submersive and what type of end does it have where it plugs into the amp. Also if you know the gauge that would be helpful as well.

This question is for you Submersive owners out there. How long is the power cord that comes with the Submersive and what type of end does it have where it plugs into the amp. Also if you know the gauge that would be helpful as well.

I believe the stock cord is 8'. It comes with a Neutrik powerCON A-type termination and is 14 AWG if memory serves.

I needed about 2' more with my first SubMersive so I went out and bought a good quality 25' extension cord, it down to 10' and assembled the Neutrik powerCON on the end. Also, you can daisy chain another SubMersive (both power and signal) off the first which is what I'm doing now that the second SubMersive is here.

This question is for you Submersive owners out there. How long is the power cord that comes with the Submersive and what type of end does it have where it plugs into the amp. Also if you know the gauge that would be helpful as well.
There is a picture of the power cord in this post:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=17043554&postcount=2128

Thanks Guys

So far, so good. I have it located in the same location as the last co-located subs. Pretty much just plug and play. I did level match the speakers as much as possible but the 5.1 toolkit is not giving me a LFE signal to calibrate from. I just used the built in tones on the Arcam. I am using the gain on the Submersive at level 4. It goes up much further(if that is indeed how the gain knob is setup). Lot's of head room with this sub....but that is getting ahead of myself.

I did have one little brain fart when I first hooked it up. I forgot that you have to twist the power plug into place, imagine the look on my face when I plugged it in, turned it on and got no sound.

I first went to my old, trusty reference for subwoofers, Master and Commander. At first, I was unimpressed because I had never owned anything that accurately reproduced LFE before. Oh.. my old set up got plenty of spl's but it was, as I find out now, boomy in comparison. The sailing scenes sounded like they were just sailing, nothing too spectacular. My old subs had kind of an unnatural sound during those scenes. Then came the opening cannon battle. The first REAL difference I noticed was when the cannon shots are felt just a split second before heard. They were in a word, pressurizing. My pant legs shook, inside my chest actually felt the percussion, and I could tell I was in for something special.

Once the blasts started to come from shorter distances, the Submersive really opened up. What once was impressive with my previous setup was now nothing short of awe-inspiring. I have an open living area somewhere in the neighborhood of 2500^ft. The cannons literally felt as if they were mounted to the couch. My dog went running from underneath the in-table and didn't come out for a while.

One of the biggest differences I noticed was that things sound just as they should, punches give a nice thump but do not sound like explosions, car doors sound like car doors. It is hard to articulate without hearing it first hand. The next thing I noticed was that there was no need for a subdude. I heard much less rattling around the room because Submersive was so inert. Literally nothing is transmitted to the floor. I tried, by the way, the coin on edge trick. I wasn't really pushing the sub but it never moved the coin none the less.

I can tell you that this sub has very good excursion capabilities. I have never felt this kind of air movement from a sealed sub before. In fact, last week I demo'd a JL F113 in a tiny room with the same reference material at a local audio store here in Tulsa. There is NO COMPARISON in these two subs IMO. The submersive is every bit as musical and hits with alot more authority. Effortless is a word that keeps coming to mind. At low volume, late at night, watching CSI Miami, it doesn't need volume to make it's presence known.

This sub has a transient attack like none other I have witnessed thus far. It may not be out of the realm of reality to say that it has as much "suddeness" and "palpability" as the Gotham.

I will get to work on dialing it in over the next few days but for now, it appears to be one of the most competent products I have seen in a long time.

Kudos to Mark.

On a side note regarding customer satisfaction... Mark is tops there as well. As busy as he is, he still manages to answer the phone and field "corny" calls like mine with no sense that he is rushing you at all. On top of that, when my sub was about to ship, I called Mark to make sure that it was slated for delivery by the weekend because I have a big party at my house Saturday night. Oops, he thought it only needed to go out by the weekend. Without so much as a pause, he told me it would go out the next day. It arrived in pristine condition on Friday, although the Fed Ex guys tried their best to change that.

Anyone with reservations about doing business with an ID company or buying this sub sight unseen, listen to my words. Buy this product. You WILL NOT be disappointed! If it were offered in a Brick and Mortar store it would be worth every bit of $4000 or more.

Nice write up tvckmiller. Congrats on the purchase and I'm sure you'll enjoy years of the SubMersives beating the crap out of you;)

You didn't note if you have any EQ on your sub (Audyssey, SMS, ...). If not, you still have not heard what the sub will do.

I too am a SubMersive owner and had very positive impressions (VERY) when I first played them. But after they were set up correctly, it is a whole different ball game.

You will greatly enjoy that sub. It is by far the most fun HT product I have ever purchased!

Have fun!!

Congrats on your purchase.

Regards,

Given roughly a 2400 cubic ft. room, is one Submersive enough for those high octane action movies to attain levels around 110dB at 10ft. away (corner loaded), down too around the 10-15Hz area?

Good question, and exactly the kind of question prospective owners should be asking.

You might also ask about 8 hz while you're at it, since this is captured in BlackHawk Down.

Todd-AO studios used 22 Bag End subs to mix the soundtrack.

So far, so good. I have it located in the same location as the last co-located subs.

I have an open living area somewhere in the neighborhood of 2500^ft. The cannons literally felt as if they were mounted to the couch.

Nice write uptvckmiller!

Couple of quick questions: what pair of subs were you running before?
How far away is your LP from the Submersive?

Thanks

Good question, and exactly the kind of question prospective owners should be asking.

You might also ask about 8 hz while you're at it, since this is captured in BlackHawk Down.

Todd-AO studios used 22 Bag End subs to mix the soundtrack.
Yeah, I was actually thinking about BHD, but I didn't want to seem "greedy" with my question. I figured if it was able to do near 110dB in the 10-15Hz range it probably would sound pretty good for BHD. :)

So far, so good. I have it located in the same location as the last co-located subs. Pretty much just plug and play. I did level match the speakers as much as possible but the 5.1 toolkit is not giving me a LFE signal to calibrate from. I just used the built in tones on the Arcam. I am using the gain on the Submersive at level 4. It goes up much further(if that is indeed how the gain knob is setup). Lot's of head room with this sub....but that is getting ahead of myself.

The Volume indicator shows input attenuation. In other words it lets some fraction of the signal coming to the amplifier through, which is indicated in dB. In simple terms, clockwise(CW) is still louder, counter-clockwise(CCW) is still quieter. Full CW is 0dB at indicated, meaning the signal on the XLR input is passed to the internal electronics. The numbers are in -dB, with full CCW being -infinity (symbol).

Do go back and work with the Audio Toolkit DVD. If you aren't getting sound to the right speakers, you probably have a setting wrong in the processor. It sounds like the processor wasn't in DD mode when the DVD was playing. This could be possible in a Blu-Ray player and only affect standard DVDs, but when the title menu music is playing your processor should be set so it auto-detects and goes to DD EX or related/appropriate mode. I haven't directly played with an Arcam pre-pro for a while so I'm not terribly familiar with how it handles the default modes. This behavior varies greatly from product to product, and is not always as intuitive as we might expect. That's one seemingly simple, but important example of where a test DVD is quite helpful in offering real peace of mind.



I did have one little brain fart when I first hooked it up. I forgot that you have to twist the power plug into place, imagine the look on my face when I plugged it in, turned it on and got no sound.

I first went to my old, trusty reference for subwoofers, Master and Commander. At first, I was unimpressed because I had never owned anything that accurately reproduced LFE before. Oh.. my old set up got plenty of spl's but it was, as I find out now, boomy in comparison. The sailing scenes sounded like they were just sailing, nothing too spectacular. My old subs had kind of an unnatural sound during those scenes. Then came the opening cannon battle. The first REAL difference I noticed was when the cannon shots are felt just a split second before heard. They were in a word, pressurizing. My pant legs shook, inside my chest actually felt the percussion, and I could tell I was in for something special.

Once the blasts started to come from shorter distances, the Submersive really opened up. What once was impressive with my previous setup was now nothing short of awe-inspiring. I have an open living area somewhere in the neighborhood of 2500^ft. The cannons literally felt as if they were mounted to the couch. My dog went running from underneath the in-table and didn't come out for a while.

One of the biggest differences I noticed was that things sound just as they should, punches give a nice thump but do not sound like explosions, car doors sound like car doors. It is hard to articulate without hearing it first hand.

Thank you very much for the report and first impressions. Your comments speak to one of my goals in any subwoofer system I set up. That being to allow definition and separation of many different events happening at once and the various textures of the different rumblings and other bass laden sounds rather than them all being lumped and garbled together. I mean to make no implication of the SubMersive being the only means to this end, but it does have strengths very conducive to getting there. :)

Enjoy,

Given roughly a 2400 cubic ft. room, is one Submersive enough for those high octane action movies to attain levels around 110dB at 10ft. away (corner loaded), down too around the 10-15Hz area?

Good question, and exactly the kind of question prospective owners should be asking.

You might also ask about 8 hz while you're at it, since this is captured in BlackHawk Down.

Todd-AO studios used 22 Bag End subs to mix the soundtrack.

Yeah, I was actually thinking about BHD, but I didn't want to seem "greedy" with my question. I figured if it was able to do near 110dB in the 10-15Hz range it probably would sound pretty good for BHD. :)

A reasonable question to ask, although an important clarification needs to be made or understood in the question. There is a world of difference between a subwoofer with ~10Hz in-room extension playing a scene with 10-15Hz content while delivering ~110dB SPL C weighting to the listener and producing a ~110dB sine wave in the 10-15Hz range.

Taking a measurement at the listening position for both cases with an RTA program displaying frequency-band levels and total SPL might paint a much better picture of this.

The answer to the question is that IF you are referring to swept sine wave output as I have posted in various measurements, it depends on the construction of the room and potential openings that might create suckouts at such frequencies. In a room that size I would guestimate an output of 98-108dB over this range dependent on various factors of construction and placement. Two SubMersives or a Terraform XL would be better suited to deliver those levels at 10-15Hz.

Do also realize that for 99% of scenes with that sort of energy, to actually ask that much output from the subwoofer at those frequencies, the total SPL at the seats (even without the main speakers) will be in the 116-120+dB range.


Clear as mud? :o

Hi Mark,

Makes perfect sense actually. Sorry I did not clarify, I was referring to swept sine wave readings, knowing how that would relate to "real world" content. I was heading out of work when I wrote that post, so it was quick.

I am guessing in my particular room, the Submersive would do quite well, as it measures pretty flat with my co-located PC13-Ultra's in the front corner of my Media room. I need very little Eq with my SMS-1 to get +/- 1.5dB from 15Hz -120Hz. After hearing your Submersives (albeit 4 of them) in Berkeley, I just really would love to have the extra extension they offer. Evetually, I would likely add another, but right now I am about ready to go out on my own in the Custom A/V Design/Install business and money is going to be tight for awhile, so one will have to do. :o

Thanks for taking the time for the detailed answer, it's much appreciated.

A reasonable question to ask, although an important clarification needs to be made or understood in the question. There is a world of difference between a subwoofer with ~10Hz in-room extension playing a scene with 10-15Hz content while delivering ~110dB SPL C weighting to the listener and producing a ~110dB sine wave in the 10-15Hz range.

Taking a measurement at the listening position for both cases with an RTA program displaying frequency-band levels and total SPL might paint a much better picture of this.

The answer to the question is that IF you are referring to swept sine wave output as I have posted in various measurements, it depends on the construction of the room and potential openings that might create suckouts at such frequencies. In a room that size I would guestimate an output of 98-108dB over this range dependent on various factors of construction and placement. Two SubMersives or a Terraform XL would be better suited to deliver those levels at 10-15Hz.

Do also realize that for 99% of scenes with that sort of energy, to actually ask that much output from the subwoofer at those frequencies, the total SPL at the seats (even without the main speakers) will be in the 116-120+dB range.


Clear as mud? :o

You didn't note if you have any EQ on your sub (Audyssey, SMS, ...). If not, you still have not heard what the sub will do.

I too am a SubMersive owner and had very positive impressions (VERY) when I first played them. But after they were set up correctly, it is a whole different ball game.

You will greatly enjoy that sub. It is by far the most fun HT product I have ever purchased!

Have fun!!

I am not using an eq as of yet. I am sure that my room has some pretty serious peaks and a couple of null because I have measured this location before with several subs. I will be looking into one soon but not till I do some real measurements.

By the way, are any of you connecting the sub to a power center of any kind? I am direct to the wall at this time.

Nice write uptvckmiller!

Couple of quick questions: what pair of subs were you running before?
How far away is your LP from the Submersive?

Thanks

I was using an M&K Mx 350 with dual push-pull 12's and a DIY enclosure with a Dayton Titanic MKlll driver. The later uses a PE 250 watt, class AB amp. My listening position is about 14 feet from the Submersive. I randomly took measurements during Master and Commander during the cannon battle scene at the first of the movie and was getting 119db at LP and I still had a ways to go. I was at -2 on my sub input trim on the Arcam and -4 on my Submersive "attenuation". My master volume knob never got above 80 on the Arcam. I feel as if the Submersive probably had another 10 left to give. Now that I understand the gain level on the sub, I will re-adjust and give another try.

I am not using an eq as of yet. I am sure that my room has some pretty serious peaks and a couple of null because I have measured this location before with several subs. I will be looking into one soon but not till I do some real measurements.

By the way, are any of you connecting the sub to a power center of any kind? I am direct to the wall at this time.

I initially plugged my SubM directly into the wall, and everything seemed fine. More recently I have gotten a Panamax M4300 and plug all my AV gear (AVR, pj, Oppo BD, etc.) into it. Also works fine, so not clear that this was necessary, but a nice safety blanket.

Re eq, I use Audyssey through my AVR (Onk 805) and then a SMS-1 to fine tune. Also the SMS-1 is great for being able to see in real time what the freq spectrum is, e.g., when you move the SubM around to different locations (a good workout!).

And though I haven't commented much on how much I'm enjoying my SubMersive, I can only underline all the positive reports above. It is indeed one of the most pleasing upgrades I've made to the HT. I had a SVS PB10 for about 4 yrs (my first sub), and it was not bad in my ~2000 cu ft room. But the SubM has opened up a totally new level to me, esp in the detail in the LFE, as Mark described above as being the major goal of his design.

Hi Jeff,

Nice to have you swing by the thread. Indeed, the Terraform XL would be the way to go. The dimensions posted are for one of 2-3 form factors I will be offering, as these monsters are build to order for now. This is basically an evolution of what we had discussed as a possible custom build a couple years back around the time we brought a SubMersive over and found your back right corner to be pretty useless for this type of addition.

This would certainly be an ideal addition on to the bDeap subs you have which are so powerful above 30-40Hz. These would add both headroom and be much cleaner. Have you made it over to Itai's for a quick listen yet? Excuses are weak as I know it's only a few miles away. :p The Terraform XL is similar to the pair of Itai's prototypes packed in a slightly smaller package (than the pair) and with more sophisticated/newer amps and drivers; i.e. more of the good stuff. ;)

I gotta get over to iTai's.. No excuses. I had him over a couple months ago.:)

That said,

What other Terraform form factors (dimensions) are available? I have 54" along that space. I have half thought of placing the sub to the front left corner on the floor between my first column and the screen. And then if I cannot live with the its placement, move it. It'd be a big job to get it behind the screen with the baffle wall and limited depth.

And given my room dimensions of 17' X 27 X 9, could I get buy with one or would two be required?

Thanks!!

What I would like to know is how to set up my soon to be delivered SubMersive in a 2500cf room when all 4 walls , ceiling are 10" solid concrete and the floor is 18" concrete with only one door which will be heavily sound proofed.

Most bass traps won't work with bass around the 10-30hz mark, so am I going to have a difficult time getting the sub setup? And what will a room like this do to the bass? Will it make it easier or harder to get down to and below 10hz?

What I would like to know is how to set up my soon to be delivered SubMersive in a 2500cf room when all 4 walls , ceiling are 10" solid concrete and the floor is 18" concrete with only one door which will be heavily sound proofed.

Most bass traps won't work with bass around the 10-30hz mark, so am I going to have a difficult time getting the sub setup? And what will a room like this do to the bass? Will it make it easier or harder to get down to and below 10hz?

Well, you won't have to worry about sound proofing. As for reaching below 10hz, from everyone's testimonies, you should be able to get down to atleast 10hz with enough output to feel it. With two SubMersives, things would be even better;)

What I would like to know is how to set up my soon to be delivered SubMersive in a 2500cf room when all 4 walls , ceiling are 10" solid concrete and the floor is 18" concrete with only one door which will be heavily sound proofed.

Most bass traps won't work with bass around the 10-30hz mark, so am I going to have a difficult time getting the sub setup? And what will a room like this do to the bass? Will it make it easier or harder to get down to and below 10hz?

In a room that solid, response below 20-30Hz will be very easy. The hard part is dealing with the room modes at higher frequencies. With a single sub, I'd bet on allowing for front corner or under the center channel. I have posted a link before to a free, Excel based room response calculator (http://www.pvconsultants.com/audio/reflection/rrc.htm) which might be worth looking at. Set the concrete walls and floors to a reflection coefficient of ~0.98. Note the model, while useful, is still simplified a great deal from real variations, but concrete walls make the assumptions made a lot more accurate.

I gotta get over to iTai's.. No excuses. I had him over a couple months ago.:)

That said,

What other Terraform form factors (dimensions) are available? I have 54" along that space. I have half thought of placing the sub to the front left corner on the floor between my first column and the screen. And then if I cannot live with the its placement, move it. It'd be a big job to get it behind the screen with the baffle wall and limited depth.

And given my room dimensions of 17' X 27 X 9, could I get buy with one or would two be required?

Thanks!!

Jeff,

If it helps, I'm starting out with 2 XLs in a room that is a little bigger than yours (35x29x10)....

Jeff,

If it helps, I'm starting out with 2 XLs in a room that is a little bigger than yours (35x29x10)....

Are you using subs that already supply down to 20 Hz? I only need the Terraform for 20 Hz and below.

And given my room dimensions of 17' X 27 X 9, could I get buy with one or would two be required?


My room is 17' x 29' x 12', will be running 2 Terraform XL's + 2-4 Submersives.

My room is 17' x 29' x 12', will be running 2 Terraform XL's + 2-4 Submersives.

I guess I know my answer then...:)

Wow! That is a lot of low end. Fortunately, I had Mark's consultation years ago when he recommended and installed the 2 B-DEAPs. I am very pleased they are still of use for 20 HZ and above at ridiculous levels. So, I won't have to move those out. They are big, bad and ugly.

Mark's consultation years ago when he recommended and installed the 2 B-DEAPs. I am very pleased they are still of use for 20 HZ and above at ridiculous levels. So, I won't have to move those out. They are big, bad and ugly.


Do you have a pic of it?
Just wondering how ugly they are... :p

I do.. I'll dig it up.

I was using an M&K Mx 350 with dual push-pull 12's and a DIY enclosure with a Dayton Titanic MKlll driver. The later uses a PE 250 watt, class AB amp. My listening position is about 14 feet from the Submersive. I randomly took measurements during Master and Commander during the cannon battle scene at the first of the movie and was getting 119db at LP and I still had a ways to go. I was at -2 on my sub input trim on the Arcam and -4 on my Submersive "attenuation". My master volume knob never got above 80 on the Arcam. I feel as if the Submersive probably had another 10 left to give. Now that I understand the gain level on the sub, I will re-adjust and give another try.
That is definately impressive for one Submersive! I just sent an email to Mark to see about ordering one in the black oak.

Thanks for the info.

Do you have a pic of it?
Just wondering how ugly they are... :p

They are quite ugly and large at 42" x 42" x 18". I am reminded often as I have 2 I took them on trade long ago from someone who switched to SubMersives (a friend was going to use them for a club install that closed up around the same time).

Are you using subs that already supply down to 20 Hz? I only need the Terraform for 20 Hz and below.

I guess I know my answer then...:)

Wow! That is a lot of low end. Fortunately, I had Mark's consultation years ago when he recommended and installed the 2 B-DEAPs. I am very pleased they are still of use for 20 HZ and above at ridiculous levels. So, I won't have to move those out. They are big, bad and ugly.

The Terraform XL's would most likely be put to use below 25-35Hz, as this is where the horn loading benefit starts to diminish greatly and we can leave the bDeap subs to work in their most efficient range.

A single Terraform XL in your room would be in the ballpark of the VLF capability Itai has in his room. A pair is a more appropriate match with the bDeaps and the rest of your system.

Are you using subs that already supply down to 20 Hz? I only need the Terraform for 20 Hz and below.

My room is 17' x 29' x 12', will be running 2 Terraform XL's + 2-4 Submersives.

I'll likely be doing the same thing with 2-4 Submersives as well....

I'll likely be doing the same thing with 2-4 Submersives as well....


Hey John,

How do you like your catalysts so far?

What subs are you currently running?

what kind of crossover would you use to split up the signal between the submersive and the terraform ?

i'm guessing some type of active crossover would be needed

what kind of crossover would you use to split up the signal between the submersive and the terraform ?

i'm guessing some type of active crossover would be needed

Correct. DSP-30, DCX-2496, DriveRack260, and probably 4 dozen related options of varying cost, number of channels and features.

In a room that solid, response below 20-30Hz will be very easy. The hard part is dealing with the room modes at higher frequencies. With a single sub, I'd bet on allowing for front corner or under the center channel. I have posted a link before to a free, Excel based room response calculator (http://www.pvconsultants.com/audio/reflection/rrc.htm) which might be worth looking at. Set the concrete walls and floors to a reflection coefficient of ~0.98. Note the model, while useful, is still simplified a great deal from real variations, but concrete walls make the assumptions made a lot more accurate.

Thanks Mark. I am going to treat the room as best as possible, carpet the floor with some sort of sound absorbing material as an underlay. The walls and ceiling will be treated with something as well (I have a company designing and building the room, I just have no time to do it myself) and of course I will be using bass traps where I can.

Any advise on 1 or 2 things that I should do without fail before I start the build?

Edit: Can't get that program to open. I will try again on my PC at home.

Any advise on 1 or 2 things that I should do without fail before I start the build?
Not Mark, but I would start with this forum:
Dedicated Theater Design and Construction (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?s=&daysprune=30&f=19)
The "sticky" entitled Acoustical Treatments Master Thread is particularly useful.

Also, check out the educational pages on these websites:
www.realtraps.com
www.gikacoustics.com
www.readytraps.com

Craig

Not Mark, but I would start with this forum:
Dedicated Theater Design and Construction (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?s=&daysprune=30&f=19)
The "sticky" entitled Acoustical Treatments Master Thread is particularly useful.

Also, check out the educational pages on these websites:
www.realtraps.com
www.gikacoustics.com
www.readytraps.com

Craig


Sage advice.

Not Mark, but I would start with this forum:
Dedicated Theater Design and Construction (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?s=&daysprune=30&f=19)
The "sticky" entitled Acoustical Treatments Master Thread is particularly useful.

Also, check out the educational pages on these websites:
www.realtraps.com
www.gikacoustics.com
www.readytraps.com

Craig

Thanks Craig, I have looked at those links before except the gikacoustics one and have read the Acoustical Treatments Master Thread. I just don't see many people in the States with a room that is as solid as mine, there is just no place for sound to escape. I am concerned that the room could be boomy or suffer other unwanted effects due to its nature. But , I do appreciate your help very much.:)

That is definately impressive for one Submersive! I just sent an email to Mark to see about ordering one in the black oak.

Thanks for the info.

It will be the most satisfying HT purchase of your life. The detail that is lost in bass is sometimes comes to life with the SubM. I am still getting proper positioning down right now but I am pretty happy with the response where it is. Somewhat limited on placement options. It did become obvious today while taking some measurements, that I need an EQ. Got about 15db of swing from 40 to 60 Hz, pretty flat everywhere else. The test tones I was using started at 16 Hz so I don't know how much lower it plays but I was only about 2 db down at 16 Hz. Anyway, I hope you enjoy yours.

here's mine finally... :D

http://i997.photobucket.com/albums/af94/ronnt88/Finallyplaced.jpg

http://i997.photobucket.com/albums/af94/ronnt88/OverallFrontview.jpg

in LFE Nirvana now ;)

^ Very nice!

Well worth the wait I am sure!:D

Your room looks great ronnt88!

ronnt88,

That is such a classy, amazing room; very, very impressive! I might have to steal some of your fashion sense if I design my own room one day. Well done, sir!

thanks japandave... ya.. worth the wait. I'm really glad my LFE itch has been scratched.. now i can get back to living :D

no prob nuance.. feel free to borrow as u wish.. here's the view of the surround speakers which i placed a little too high but space is a real issue in my smaller condo.

http://i997.photobucket.com/albums/af94/ronnt88/Living2.jpg

Thanks Craig, I have looked at those links before except the gikacoustics one and have read the Acoustical Treatments Master Thread. I just don't see many people in the States with a room that is as solid as mine, there is just no place for sound to escape. I am concerned that the room could be boomy or suffer other unwanted effects due to its nature. But , I do appreciate your help very much.:)
In a very "solid" room, the lower you go in frequency, the harder it is to use acoustical treatments to impact the in-room response. The best "adjustments" will be changes to the sub position and changes of the listening position. These changes will have a significant impact on the final response.

After that, I would make every effort to reduce the in-room resonances with EQ. Even if you can't get the room perfectly "flat", anything you can do to reduce resonances, ringing and over-hang, will be beneficial.

Craig

awesome room ronnt88 !!!!!

hey mark, you're gonna have to start offering the submersive in a 2001 space odyssey white finish :D